0:00 It's hypothetical. 0:02 I'm trying to figure out the way to cause the most chaos. 0:06 If I could have thought of a bug like that, I would. 0:09 That would be an optimal bug, 0:11 one that is incredibly obscure, 0:13 spread out kind of across the entire code base 0:16 and hard to connect if you're scanning it 0:19 or doing a security audit. 0:21 And it's kind of like the perfect bug 0:23 for this type of exploit. 0:26 That's number one, right? 0:28 And then I'll just reiterate for anyone 0:30 who may have not been here initially. 0:32 Number two would be shipping with firmware 0:34 that conducts a nonce exfiltration 0:38 at a certain block height. 0:41 And so Portland has stated that firmware shipped on devices, 0:46 it's very difficult, if not impossible, 0:49 to reconstruct what that firmware is doing, right? 0:54 And if it is different than, say, 0:57 the source viewable firmware 0:58 that you might flash on it on your own. 1:01 And so I think the second leg of this attack, 1:04 this kind of perfectly orchestrated attack 1:07 by a super evil genius would be- 1:10 How do you not update? 1:11 How do you not fucking update the firmware 1:13 to your cold wallet? 1:15 Like, it's just the one thing that you have to keep secure. 1:18 Like, you'd think you would get this later. 1:20 Mr. Hoddle, there's 105 people in this space. 1:24 I'm guessing most don't flash the firmware 1:26 on their devices when they get it, 1:28 unless it has some process 1:30 by which it flashes the newest firmware on its own, right? 1:32 Some devices, you plug into your computer 1:35 and then it flashes it automatically, the newest thing, 1:37 and then checks the signatures and yada, yada, yada. 1:41 But with Coldcards- 1:42 I mean, that's the first thing that I do 1:43 for whenever I get any device. 1:46 Right, so that's something we need 1:47 to educate people about, for sure. 1:49 I agree. 1:50 Like, anything. 1:51 When you get a phone, you update. 1:53 Everything. 1:54 You have to update it. 1:55 You're not thinking in terms of the average user. 1:57 You're thinking in terms of the power user, 1:59 or the user who's actually done their research 2:01 and understands the risks associated 2:04 with keeping shipped firmware on that device, right? 2:10 I agree. 2:10 I also flash my own firmware. 2:13 I have one Coldcard where I haven't. 2:15 It's the Mark 5. 2:16 I just never got around to using it. 2:17 As a matter of fact, I'm gonna keep that shipped firmware 2:20 on there, and I'm gonna be conducting tests 2:23 on a regular basis to see if my theory ever plays out. 2:26 And after a certain block height, 2:28 it starts to conduct this next attack. 2:30 I think, as a matter of fact, 2:36 if they had- 2:37 Without the dice roll? 2:39 Well, listen. 2:41 If this perfect attack had been thwarted, 2:47 right, tripped up, preemptively, unexpectedly, 2:52 and you didn't want to conduct the rest of it, 2:54 or you didn't wanna get caught, what would you do? 2:59 Nothing. 3:00 No. 3:02 You would rush out an emergency firmware fix 3:04 and try to get everyone to remove 3:06 the shipped firmware on that device 3:10 to reduce the number of- 3:12 to reduce the likelihood that someone would find 3:15 a nonce exfiltration later, when it actually begins, 3:19 because that's already set on a timer, right? 3:22 And in my opinion- 3:23 I have a hard time. 3:24 I just have a hard time. 3:24 I think people- 3:25 Hey, I'm not saying this happened for real. 3:27 I'm just saying- 3:28 No, no, no, the update thing. 3:29 Not that, not that. 3:30 The update. 3:31 Like, I just, when you, a Coldcard user, 3:33 I would think is a power user. 3:34 Like, if you're not a power user, you're getting a ledger. 3:37 I guarantee you, you're wrong. 3:38 I guarantee you. 3:39 And I just feel like, 3:40 how do you not fucking update your hardware? 3:42 I just don't, I can't stand that. 3:43 I don't understand how you don't do that. 3:45 Because most people don't understand the threat. 3:47 Especially out of, like, right when it's brand new. 3:50 Can I just finish? 3:51 Let me just finish the full attack, okay? 3:54 And then we can open it up for discussion. 3:55 D++, I see you there. 3:56 Shooter, G-Money, I'll bring you guys up in a second. 3:59 I just want to finish my thoughts. 4:02 Mr. Hoddle, let me just finish real quick. 4:03 And then we can have a lively discussion about all of this. 4:06 So you guys can tell me how I'm retarded 4:08 or how I'm a genius, evil genius. 4:11 Okay, so in my opinion, 4:16 you would want the nonce exfiltration 4:18 to have an absolute timer, block height based, 4:22 so that at a certain block height, 4:23 you know, which you now flip it 4:27 where any signed transaction used, 4:30 you know, with any Coldcards using the shipped firmware 4:34 will now expose your private key completely. 4:36 Like, it doesn't even try to, like, 4:38 I mean, it might encrypt it, obviously. 4:39 It's not gonna show it raw. 4:41 It'll encrypt it, but show it completely. 4:43 And so it will be very obvious if you're looking on chain 4:47 that this is happening. 4:48 But they, at this point, would want to do 4:51 the complete attack and try to rug in RBF war 4:55 as many things as possible and in the fog of war. 4:57 Because remember, 5:02 the first leg is you've already grinded 5:05 all of the available seeds from the RNG, 5:10 from the limited entropy RNG. 5:13 So you have those tables prior 5:15 to even shipping these devices. 5:17 You've got those ready to go. 5:19 You're probably watching to see, you know, 5:21 well, first of all, you have the timer 5:23 for the nonce exfiltration, 5:25 but you're also watching to see how, you know, 5:26 your balances are growing based on people 5:28 who have just done the RNG. 5:30 You also might be grinding phrases on top of those 5:38 just in case you wanna try to find some additional funds 5:41 that may have been hidden by passphrases in the meantime 5:44 while you wait to conduct this kind of perfect attack. 5:48 And then as soon as you get close to, 5:52 probably within a block or two, right? 5:55 Maybe the block before. 5:57 As soon as you get close to that absolute block height, 6:00 after which nonce exfiltration, 6:04 that leg of the attack begins, 6:07 you trip the wire for the RNG back. 6:13 Now, what we witnessed with Coldcard a week ago 6:18 was child's play compared to what it could have been 6:21 at the attacker grinded through the entire set first 6:26 and then tripped the wire later. 6:29 They were obviously under, I'm constrained 6:32 because they knew it was only a matter of time 6:33 before some other retard pointed Kimi 6:35 at that same code base. 6:38 So it makes sense why they did things kind of quickly 6:41 and a bit retardedly. 6:44 But had they found the exploit without the use of Kimi 6:48 and known that it was such an obfuscated exploit 6:51 that no one would find it, 6:53 they would have also spent the time to grind the tables, 6:56 maximize the amount of coins being rugged. 7:00 I mean, they probably wouldn't have done it all at once, 7:01 though, to be honest. 7:03 I think, anyways, let me just finish the thought though. 7:07 I'm kind of, I'm trailing in and out of these ideas, 7:10 but I hope the picture I'm painting 7:12 is beginning to become clear. 7:16 So you rug all the RNG ones in one fell swoop. 7:23 Thousands of coins gone, right? 7:26 Literally in one block. 7:28 Everyone panics. 7:35 I all rush Twitter to try to figure out what's going on. 7:41 Many just start to move their coins if they weren't one, 7:43 if they weren't people who are affected. 7:47 But this is where the evil genius 7:48 of the second leg comes in. 7:51 In the fog of war and in the panic, 7:53 everyone's moving their coins as quickly as they can 7:56 without really checking to see if that's a risk. 8:01 But it actually is the second leg of the attack 8:03 that allows for this evil genius to now sweep those too, 8:09 because those private keys 8:12 have now been leaked with that movement. 8:17 Now, not only have you rugged the thousands of coins 8:21 that used the RNG, you're now rugging all the ones left over 8:24 that had the shipped firmware on it. 8:27 Now, of course, Mr. Hottle, I know, 8:30 the most ultra-paranoid people 8:33 would probably still survive this attack. 8:35 And actually that's part of, I mean, I don't know, 8:39 maybe that's just survival of the fittest. 8:43 I don't think that's ultra-paranoid though. 8:46 Like, I don't think that is, ultra-paranoid would be- 8:50 Multi-sig, multi-vendor, rolling dice, 8:53 and passphrases on top. 8:55 They'd be protected too. 8:56 And they would survive as well. 8:58 Assuming they flashed on firmware, 9:02 assuming that they only had keys made by Coldcards 9:08 below the threshold of signers in the multi-sig, 9:11 they would survive too, right? 9:12 So in other words, I mean, 9:14 the ultra-paranoid survived this attack, 9:17 but the attack itself causes wreckage, 9:23 probably an order of magnitude higher than what we saw. 9:28 And what we saw last week was incredibly damaging. 9:36 So imagine if it was 10 times worse, 9:41 what kind of effect that would have had on the network 9:44 and the ripples it would have had. 9:46 Imagine not only the number of coins being rugged, 9:51 having multiplied in factor, 9:57 but also the number of histories 10:04 in correlated and privacy being nuked 10:07 across all those devices as well, right? 10:12 So you cast the net in two separate spots, 10:16 both far and wide. 10:20 And yeah, there's little slivers where people get through 10:23 and aren't affected, but the vast majority are. 10:26 And that's how you conduct the most optimal attack 10:29 is you first hold a ripcord on the one 10:33 that you're kind of tracking diligently 10:35 and you know you can just sweep in one fell swoop. 10:40 And then in the fog of war, as everyone's panicking, 10:43 you actually wait for them to reveal themselves 10:46 and you snipe them as they're running away. 10:49 Literally how you would do this. 10:52 It's like, it's fucking war gamed out, bro. 10:55 Like this is how you would do it in a real war too. 10:58 You fucking send a big fucking bomb 11:00 and then you snipe off the people who are running away 11:03 with their heads off, you know what I'm saying? 11:05 Why would you snipe them as they're running away? 11:07 You mean like people that are in a multi-sig, 11:08 like with the two Coldcard? 11:10 That's the visual I'm getting, 11:11 but it makes sense to me why you would do it that way. 11:13 And also like, why wouldn't you just- 11:15 Why wouldn't they just, 11:16 why do they need to wait for them to move? 11:17 Why wouldn't they just rug them right away? 11:19 Because they don't have their private keys yet. 11:21 That's what the nonce exfiltration is. 11:23 You don't get the private keys until they move the coins. 11:25 Yeah, you get the private key 11:26 when they start moving the coins in. 11:26 Well, in that case, you- 11:29 Bingo. 11:31 Understand what I'm saying, Mr. Model? 11:33 And nobody can detect- 11:34 And nobody can detect that leg of the attack 11:39 until that block height's been passed, 11:41 if it is an absolute block height and set up prior. 11:45 So it's something that, you know, if it is, 11:48 like I think it would be prudent 11:50 if anyone does have a Coldcard 11:53 and they're ultra paranoid like me, 11:56 do not get rid of the shipped firmware on that device 12:00 if you still have one with the original shipped firmware 12:04 and conduct tests periodically 12:06 to see if any of the nonce values are funky. 12:11 And if they are, at any point in time, 12:13 you need to- 12:14 But wouldn't we already see that though? 12:16 Wouldn't we see that? 12:17 No. 12:18 Wouldn't we see that for people that did it? 12:20 No, it was tripped early. 12:21 I don't think, I think if they had set a block height prior, 12:26 the block height hasn't come yet. 12:29 I think they were expecting to have much more time 12:32 to build up the effectiveness of the attack. 12:34 So when the block time comes, 12:37 you're saying that this- 12:39 If I had to choose a block time, 12:41 just picking one out of my hat as an evil genius. 12:47 Bro, this is fucking beyond evil genius. 12:50 This is like, this is taking it to a level where like, 12:52 this is some CIA- 12:54 I would pick block height one million. 12:58 That's what I would pick. 12:59 Oh, we got some time. 13:00 Not much. 13:02 That's a block height I'd pick. 13:04 I'll take the other side of that. 13:06 I'll take the other side of that. 13:08 By the way, I agree. 13:09 I agree. 13:10 The likelihood of this being true, 13:12 I believe is extremely, extremely, extremely low. 13:16 I think it's probably- 13:17 I'm not saying you can't have it 13:18 with another hardware wallet in the future. 13:20 Like, you know, a CIA hardware wallet ready to run. 13:24 Like, you know, a much bigger one 13:25 than fucking Coldcard, right? 13:26 Like Coldcard did not have that many users. 13:29 I think that, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised 13:31 if other ones have back doors and, you know, 13:34 there's some funky shit that happens 13:35 in the future at some point. 13:36 But regardless, like, you know, 13:41 this one was- 13:42 Tails, baby. 13:43 Yeah. 13:44 Make Tails your president. 13:45 This one was kind of a perfect setup for, 13:48 especially for catching a lot of these, like, 13:52 you know, pretty, 13:55 what an intelligence agency might call high-risk individuals 14:00 because it's a certain type of person 14:02 who would opt for a Coldcard versus a Ledger or Trezor. 14:06 And those are the types of people you know 14:07 are trying to escape the system and stay out forever. 14:10 So those are the types of people you want to rug 14:12 and nuke their privacy. 14:15 You understand? 14:17 I was just trying to figure out 14:18 what you were trying to say. 14:18 I was trying to figure out 14:19 what you were trying to say. 14:20 I was trying to figure out 14:21 what you were trying to say. 14:22 You understand? 14:23 I was just trying to roll some dice 14:25 with a hardware wallet. 14:26 That's all I was trying to do. 14:27 I think the other aspect of this- 14:30 55! 14:31 The other aspect of this, 14:33 which I think is, 14:35 I just heard of this one in the back channel. 14:37 So I won't say who said it, 14:38 but I thought it was a funny aspect 14:40 because it's just, you know, 14:42 heightening my paranoia, which I love. 14:44 I love being paranoid if you can't tell. 14:48 The block clock being a phone home- 14:51 Yeah, that's funny. 14:51 Yeah, that one. 14:52 To correlate XPUBs with OGs 14:55 so that they don't rug those guys 14:57 like too early or something. 14:58 I mean, obviously in the final leg of the attack, 15:01 whatever, block height one million, 15:02 you rug everybody. 15:03 You're trying to cause chaos and panic 15:05 and you're trying to, you know, 15:07 remove as much Bitcoin from the system as possible 15:09 and whatever. 15:11 But, 15:12 you know, what if you want to get fed a little bit? 15:15 So you rug a little bit here and there, right? 15:17 Just a couple of fish here and there, 15:19 a couple of minnows. 15:21 Well, if you have lists of who bought block clocks 15:25 and then those block clocks are 15:30 being associated with particular wallets 15:34 based on IPs, 15:36 then you're going to get fed a little bit, right? 15:40 Based on IPs 15:43 and maybe based on key loggers 15:45 or who knows what else they could be putting in there. 15:52 Then at least, you know, leading up to it, 15:54 you're not going to be rugging like Mr. Hoddle, right? 15:56 If Mr. Hoddle was dumb enough not to take the precautions, 15:59 but like Mr. Hoddle's caught up in the list of people 16:02 and you are trying to choose random ones 16:04 to kind of rug along the way, 16:05 well, you're not going to rug Mr. Hoddle 16:06 because, I mean, Mr. Hoddle doesn't have block clocks. 16:09 So I'm like, maybe you don't rug Wicked, for example. 16:11 Because if Wicked gets rugged, 16:13 ain't nobody buying the Coldcard ever again, right? 16:17 I'd be out there fucking preaching how Coldcard fucked me. 16:21 So you have to know like the people who have those products, 16:26 especially if you're trying to rug little bits at a time, 16:28 leading up to it and stay fed, right? 16:31 Yeah, Mandrake's one of them down there. 16:33 It's definitely not going to rug Mandrake leading up to it. 16:35 Hell no, that would be terrible. 16:37 Can you imagine? 16:38 Mandrake got rugged, game over, bro. 16:43 Anyways, I mean, I think the block clock 16:46 could play kind of an interesting role 16:49 in that it could cover their ass. 16:53 But again, that's only if they're being greedy 16:54 and trying to take a little bit along the way to get fed. 16:58 I think that's risky to be doing that, 17:01 but I mean, maybe they were, who knows? 17:03 And it's completely hypothetical. 17:06 They did sell thousands of fucking devices, right? 17:08 Like they didn't make money. 17:09 It's not like they weren't making anything. 17:12 They were profitable. 17:13 They made very little, which is why NVK was always so, 17:16 that there were walls for making so much more. 17:23 I mean, they were peanuts, right? 17:24 I mean, the fact that fucking Passport took their share 17:30 and then fucking raised $30 million. 17:32 Yeah, $20 million, that probably definitely 17:35 fucking pissed them off. 17:37 But still, I pissed them off by a lot, for sure. 17:39 Yeah, I mean, can you imagine, right? 17:42 That's how it all got started. 17:43 And let's be honest, 17:43 if you've used one of these Passport devices, 17:46 especially their newest one, 17:47 it feels like a fucking modern solid device. 17:51 Whereas your Coldcard feels like a piece of shit, 17:53 plastic fucking like calculator, right? 17:57 Some weird, I mean, it's cool. 17:59 I like it, right? 18:00 I like it. 18:01 The firmware, that software side of things is pretty dope. 18:04 It has a lot of features, 18:06 like the advanced feeling of it when you're using it. 18:10 But when you hold it, 18:11 this thing's a fucking piece of shit, 18:13 and it breaks all the time. 18:15 I mean, there's room for the market 18:17 or have Coldcard features, 18:20 but a bad-ass, like bad-ass hardware, 18:23 like a fucking nice hardware, 18:27 but you need the features, right? 18:29 People want the power users need those features. 18:32 You know what you could probably do at some point 18:33 in the not-too-distant future? 18:35 You could probably point Kimi and say, 18:37 hey, I really like all the features in Coldcard. 18:41 Can you safely translate that into a firmware 18:44 that I can flash onto my Prime? 18:49 Well, they have an SDK for Rust apps. 18:52 I put all my shit on Prime last week, 18:56 so if I get fucked over, I'll tell you first. 18:59 Isn't the Prime, like it feels pretty fucking nice? 19:03 Yeah, it's definitely, it's got weight to it 19:05 for like its size, it's very weighty. 19:07 It's got, it's metal. 19:08 I mean, it feels nice, yeah, it's definitely. 19:10 If I get a job at Foundation, 19:12 I will shill the fuck out of this product, I'm just kidding. 19:15 Well, I mean, I, yeah, I mean, 19:17 I does feel it's the nicest one I've had. 19:19 Like it's the nicest, I had a Ledger for a while 19:22 until it looked really bad, and I was like, fuck that. 19:25 And then I bought the old Passport, I bought it. 19:29 Like I got this new- 19:29 Yeah, the old Passport's nice too. 19:31 I mean, that one, you know, you can tell they're kind of, 19:33 they've been iterating, and like that one's nice. 19:36 I like that it has, you know, like the battery in the back 19:40 that you can take out, and the magnets and everything. 19:42 It's solid and metal on the inside. 19:45 And then, anyways, I mean, they definitely have a good, 19:52 good designer, whoever's designing those products, 19:54 like knows how to design products for, you know, normies. 20:00 Because I'll just admit it, I'm a normie when it comes to, like, product design. I'm like, ooh, heavy, shiny. 20:06 Yo, Wicked, yeah, Luka Buka is my favorite these days. In this XFIL attack you're talking about, would using something like Sparrow, which I know has a feature to help prevent that, do anything? 20:20 So Sparrow, as far as I know, does not have a feature to prevent that. But what you could do, if you were really- I mean, this is what I will be doing, as a matter of fact, I'm not going to be holding any Bitcoin on these devices, but I am going to be putting the same seed phrase on one Coldcard, which I've flashed the firmware on, and one Coldcard, which still has the originally shipped firmware. 20:42 And periodically, I'm going to be- well, I guess I do have to have a little Bitcoin to kind of make a transaction, so maybe I'll put, like, a thousand sats in there, whatever. Periodically, I'll be creating a transaction and signing with both devices, and then seeing if the signatures have mismatches, right? 21:02 Then you'll have to figure out which one's the bottom. 21:32 What you can never prove, right, or even verify, is what the shipped firmware is doing. Shipped firmware could be doing whatever the fuck you want, whatever the fuck they want. So, like, that's the reason why it's important to flash firmware on your device when you get it. 21:48 And I can confirm with you that I never flashed the firmware when I got mine. So, like, everybody did it? Like, no, dude, we just, like, went with the fucking program. 21:59 Exactly. So now I'm going to get Shinobi up here to tell me how retarded I am, and to probably get off of Spaces. 22:09 The one thing with Foundation that was- I found a bug and filed it. It wasn't a bug, like a security bug, but I got the prime- Zach sent me one because we were just talking about doing other stuff, like identity stuff with it, because you can- it does, like, 2FA. It does a little bit more than just Bitcoin stuff. 22:29 We can't wait until we finally live in this hyper-Bitcoin-esque world, dude. Jesus Christ, Daniel. So build that shit, bro. 22:37 I know, we're working on it, but there was one bug where- it wasn't technically a bug, it was just really bad UX. I booted it up and it needed a firmware- it was trying to do a firmware update. It's like, okay, we're going through this update, and you had to update it before it would let you create your new seed and stuff on it. 22:54 And it failed every time. It just kept failing, and I was like, what the fuck is wrong with this thing? And it was because it had- you used the companion app and it had Tor on. And I guess for whatever reason, Tor downloading the file was the one thing Tor was fucking bad at, so that's why I kept failing. 23:14 And I talked to him once, and he was like, yeah, just turn Tor off just for the download thing. It'll work. Because the error is super generic, you would never know. And so I did it, and immediately it worked. And I was just like, fuck, okay. 23:29 That's cool how they have the- you saw in the settings, I'm sure you already know, the settings where you can just see the logs on the device itself. Not that that's particularly useful, but it is just cool to watch. 23:44 Yeah, yeah, it was nice. The error message could have been- he was like, that's the only thing we ever get. He was like, we just gotta put something in the next update, and I guess there they are. 23:55 Hey Wicked, question for you. Do you think it's odd how many products they actually were able to come up with, with such a small team? 24:02 No, not really. Not that many. 24:09 Also a janky plastic piece of shit. 24:12 How many people do you need, man? You're like, alright, we're gonna grab the worst fucking function. 24:18 Yeah, you see those Ledger and Trezor, they're much bigger companies, and they've got a very slim product line, where these guys were making like 10 different things, from the Opendime to the Tapsigner. They must have been outsourcing the hardware and software to some degree as well, I would imagine. 24:33 Oh yeah, it felt like Teemu though. You could probably do a few of these. Especially if you're using form factors, I don't know, is there a custom form factor, Wicked, like the actual housing? 24:46 I mean, yeah, I think so. Especially, well, maybe not for the, I would imagine, maybe the mark, like 3, 4, 5, and lower, this is the mark number. Products seem to be pretty generic, it's just like a fucking calculator basically. 25:07 But I think the Qs started to have a little bit more custom form factor. One thing, so one hole to punch in this evil genius theory, and one reason why you wouldn't necessarily... 25:20 What are you talking about? They're all custom PCBs, and like form factor designs. 25:26 No, I'm sorry, I was talking about the case, but Daniel, what were you talking about? 25:31 I was just talking about the case, I wonder if they ever used, I couldn't recall what it was like. 25:35 It's a big question with those two, dude. I literally have a fucking prototype of a Coldcard case that never got busted off the 3D printer spine. 25:46 Okay, so I guess they did then. Yeah, of course they did. What am I even talking about? 25:52 Anyways, one of the holes to punch in this evil genius thing is like, as you scale and start producing more hardware, it gets increasingly riskier and riskier to flash the malware onto it because you have to trust more people to do that without them keeping records of that malware. 26:17 And then actually getting leaked at some point. 26:23 That's just one thing to consider. If it's one dude building all these devices in his garage and he can do whatever he wants, if it's a couple, then you could probably keep that locked down, but once you get to a larger team who's building the hardware, then it becomes riskier to contain. 26:40 That is all I would say in terms of just the risks associated with this and some holes to punch into the theory, which again I think is a fairly flimsy, like I think it would be probably the most optimal way to cause the most chaos. 26:53 If some evil genius could actually plan this whole thing out, which I don't even know if it's possible. I guess it's a very crazy idea. And even the RNG exploit itself is just so wildly obscure that it's hard to believe someone could plan that themselves and that wasn't just a bug. 27:16 It also happened to slice perfectly in the math that avoided collisions, but also brute forcible. So that's unique. 27:27 Before the RNG was enough to avoid collisions. 27:32 We've confirmed that the RNG that was used was indeed the default from the MicroPython module. So that wasn't something that Peter fine-tuned, it was just what was given. That actually was, it looks like, just a coincidence. So that did quell some of my paranoia and probably should for you too as well. 27:57 You should listen to fucking Shinobi, he's always fucking right. 28:03 Well, I wouldn't, I mean, hey, wait until Block High 1 million and we'll see who's right. 28:09 Do you like my video, Wicked? Do you like that? 28:13 I sent mine off to Portland today. They're in transit. 28:19 I sent mine off to Portland today. 28:22 I sent mine off to Portland today. 28:25 I sent mine off to Portland today. 28:28 I sent mine off to Portland today. 28:31 I sent mine off to Portland today. 28:34 I sent mine off to Portland today. 28:37 I sent mine off to Portland today. 28:39 They're in transit. 28:43 Portland's gonna have them by Thursday and start doing a bunch of tests on them to see if, you know, if they're in me. 28:52 If they glow in the dark? 28:55 Mm-hmm, yep. 28:57 Dude, I really do fucking Jesus Christ want Portland to write some better firmware for this thing. 29:05 Like, oh my God, dude, like that, like this thing looks fucking nice, but holy fuck. 29:12 Is this like the boggiest, most unstable fucking like software I've ever fucking run on anything? 29:20 Holy fucking shit. 29:22 What are you talking about? 29:24 Their focus was elsewhere when they were working on that product. 29:29 They put like really solid work into the hardware for the block clocks and then the software. 29:35 They're like, this doesn't manage money. 29:37 Zero fucks given, slop, and then just like back to the fucking Coldcard shit. 29:42 Cold card shit. 29:48 Breaks all the time. 29:50 Fucking control. 29:52 Fucking. 29:55 Portland keep the micro for his troubles and then ask for the mini back. 30:00 I mean, it wasn't bugged, but even if it was bugged, maybe I still want it back. 30:03 I'll just tell him to fix that. 30:06 To debug it and re-bug it? 30:08 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 30:09 Yeah. 30:11 Can you imagine? 30:14 The chaos and panic that would ensue. 30:17 Dude, you know that like if Portland didn't think of this himself, I am going to put the idea of him tweaking the firmware with a custom build just to make it high-wicked on the screen. 30:36 Just high-wicked. 30:38 No, I see what you're saying. 30:40 Hey, Paul is in the audience. 30:42 Can we bring him up and talk about the spork? 30:44 Yeah, yeah. 30:46 The spork. 30:48 You got to go from the fork to the spork. 30:50 By the way, Wicked, it looks like Sparrow has some integration, like some anti-klepto protection specifically for BitBox, where there's some type of host nonce that it does. 31:00 Bitbox has that already implemented on their hardware, so I think there's ways, you know. 31:07 It's cool that Sparrow's already doing that with that device. 31:10 Hey, Paul. 31:12 What's up, man? 31:14 Am I allowed to call it the spork? 31:16 It's a pedophile unless they support the eCash forks pedophile and child rapist and murderer. 31:24 Am I doing it right? 31:26 Will I get attention now? 31:28 Can we officially call it the spork? 31:30 Can we have your blessing? 31:32 Yeah, I like that. 31:34 Alright, that's going to be it from now on, the spork. 31:36 My entire life, as you can imagine, has been like, you check in at a hotel and they're like, oh, yes, Mr. 31:45 Then like a long pause and you just think, what are they going to try? 31:48 Like I've heard, I've heard many, I've heard many versions. 31:52 Can you change it? 31:54 Sometimes I just call it the spork. 31:56 That's a good, you know, actually, in high school, as you know, there was a pause because a lot of people in Bitcoin call me this. 32:02 There's a Paul Sztorc because it actually the C is pronounced starts. 32:07 The Polish C is a different letter. 32:09 So people call me Paul Sztorc, even though it's not that sporty in high school. 32:14 But it was at least. 32:16 It was just you want to know. 32:18 OK, it was simpler for everyone involved. 32:22 Right. 32:23 So it's pretty good. 32:24 How do you say your last name? 32:26 It's just stored. 32:27 The C is a different letter. 32:29 If you care in Polish and it's a T.S. 32:30 Sound like a baby carrying bird, like a baby carrying bird. 32:35 The work is that's a common meme in our like cousin group chat and stuff and people put like stork. 32:41 Like that's a lot of people's like fake, you know, like when you become an adult and you make like a Facebook, but you don't use your real name because people like teachers or something. 32:51 So some people do like stork or strock or something. 32:55 They do like weird stuff like that. 32:56 In case you guys care. 32:57 This is now Paul. 32:59 Fork season's off to a riveting start. 33:01 When is the P cash fork? 33:04 This 23rd. 33:05 But since people are very confused, what I thought was I do it in stages. 33:09 So this one is no trading. 33:12 OK, no warm up at work time so that I don't owe any fucking taxes because of you. 33:18 Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. 33:19 What date did you say? 33:20 Is it is it a block height? 33:22 It is a block. 33:24 What's the block height? 33:25 The block height two weeks after the one ten, whatever. 33:30 It's the next difficulty coming up. 33:32 And but there's that's the alpha practice and the beta practice September 20th approximately. 33:37 And then the real one will be six weeks, three after that on Halloween. 33:41 So I thought it's kind of ready to go in the technical sense. 33:44 But I don't think people are ready in a in a integration sense. 33:51 So I thought we'll boil the frog a little bit. 33:55 This one is it will still everything. 33:57 Well, it'll be trying to resemble the real network in every way, but it will be fundamentally a test. 34:04 So it'll be like kind of an opportunity for everyone to just check, you know, try to test your coin splitting and eCash dumping strategies so that with the real fork goes, you can you can quickly dump it all. 34:20 As quickly as you as quickly as you want. 34:22 So you can practice with this September one as an incentive to get people to buy the practice one. 34:28 If you somehow manage to accumulate a thousand, you can turn those in for for ten real ones. 34:35 And then for the October for the September one, if you accumulate a thousand of the test fork, you can turn those in for 20 real ones. 34:42 How many do I need to get a commemorative spork? 34:46 Like, do we like sign? 34:49 So I go, should I do this kind of lining up? 34:53 So like a TABConf, should I do like, yes, I find a box of sporks and sign the handle. 34:59 And then, oh, my God, you know, I got to get like, we need to get like some other big ones we can get somewhere. 35:04 Like, I don't know why anyone would have everything. 35:07 I will find you some big sporks if this is the case, I think, because it'll be right. 35:12 Because I think the final TABConf is in October, October, October 21st. 35:18 It'll be very close. 35:20 Well, like the 12th, it's going to be a banger. 35:23 So that'll be that'll be the end of all the end of cash. 35:28 I'm just curious because that would have been way more memetic. 35:32 Well, that's a good point. 35:34 I think, you know, you want to pick a name where if it went. 35:38 You want to plan for success and plan for like if it hit eight billion people. 35:42 So that was kind of the idea was not let the name be a roadblock. 35:48 And just pick a generic name, you know, like email. 35:52 I think it's a great name. 35:54 So it's a good name. 35:56 Names are hard. 35:57 And I noticed that from what I you guys just spend all your time in spaces all day. 36:02 No one seems to have anything to do. 36:05 Between you and Stu TXO. 36:08 And it's like everyone's just constantly in spaces. 36:11 No one has like a real job, which is great. 36:16 But I wonder we haven't heard Luke's name. 36:19 And actually naming things is pretty hard. 36:21 Maybe you guys know what it is. 36:22 But my name is George. 36:27 No, no one docs for Luke. 36:29 He's been through enough. 36:31 It's like Gollum. 36:32 We have to just feel bad for him. 36:33 You know, I think. 36:37 But what is the name going to be of the 110 fork? 36:39 Does anyone know? 36:40 I don't think anyone does. 36:43 No, no, no. 36:45 Indeed. 36:46 So Mr. 36:47 Hoddle's in the back channel discord. 36:49 Apparently they're talking about calling it the money. 36:55 I think that you call it the big Dombrowski coin. 37:00 I mean, I see that. 37:01 In my head, I'm seeing that AI movie play right now. 37:05 He's like, oh, I needed that BIP-110. 37:07 It really tied the chain together. 37:11 And he's like, come on, man. 37:14 That was my my BIP. 37:17 Door asking people. 37:18 And then filters. 37:22 Who would be the guy? 37:23 Would it be mechanic or crater? 37:25 Crater would be the guy. 37:26 Am I the only one who cares about the rules? 37:29 Or maybe I'd be like Adam back. 37:30 You could flip it around and be like stop. 37:33 Like this is like a movie that maps to like any meme. 37:37 And you're like killing it. 37:39 You're just beating it to death and like ruining that magical. 37:44 But the point I was trying to make is naming things is actually pretty hard. 37:48 So just because they're talking about calling it the money. 37:51 That doesn't mean that like, you know, because then you got to worry about, oh, 37:55 is the domain available? 37:56 What you know, what, if anything is available, like what kind of like you 37:59 got to set up your GitHub, your email and all your stuff. 38:02 You know, it's actually I think it's actually kind of hard, actually. 38:07 And so I think it's it's a huge disadvantage for Luke to be trying to 38:10 plan it out in advance when you got people like Mr. 38:13 Hata, like spying it out and it's all undecided and they want to launch 38:17 September 1st. 38:18 And so I think that would be really hard. 38:21 You definitely want, you know, when people name a child, they usually never 38:25 tell anyone until the child is born because they want it to be like a 38:28 fait accompli. 38:29 You know, they want it to be like it's an accomplished fact. 38:31 It's a done deal. 38:33 No more negotiating. 38:34 No more weighing in. 38:35 No more complaining. 38:36 No more bike shedding. 38:37 Everyone's got an opinion. 38:38 You know, meet Bob. 38:42 Sorry. 38:43 Meet Bob. 38:47 Meet Bob. 38:48 Is that someone who's bike shedding? 38:53 I didn't I didn't understand that. 38:55 Goddamn it. 38:57 He's I don't think he's trying to be deep. 38:59 Or is that a what about Bob joke? 39:01 I don't know. 39:02 I can't even tell. 39:03 I'm right there with Paul, actually. 39:04 I don't know the fuck's going on. 39:05 Yeah. 39:07 How did we end up here, Daniel? 39:08 That's what I asked myself. 39:09 I just saw you in the thing. 39:10 I knew this work was coming and I'm pretty invested in me. 39:13 I did the whole thing in Gemini with the little picture and I thought it 39:17 was pretty funny. 39:18 So I just wanted to make sure that you were you were approved. 39:21 You knew it was light hearted. 39:22 I wasn't trying to go after you. 39:24 The spork thing. 39:25 Well, yeah, I think that's fine. 39:27 I mean, obviously, I knew when you propose a hard fork of Bitcoin, you're 39:31 signing up for a certain amount of like fun, deranged hatred. 39:36 But that's OK. 39:39 Yeah. 39:40 Yeah. 39:41 I'm definitely going to come to TopGolf if we do this. 39:43 I mean, I do think a lot of things, you know, sometimes I think about the 39:46 110 fork and I just think this is just so bizarre because it's like the 39:49 opposite of everything. 39:51 Like I always knew that. 39:54 You know, you present people with the BIP300 activator, that's what 51 39:58 percent would activate. 39:59 So that's the soft fork option. 40:00 And then eCash is sort of like, OK, if you turn the. 40:03 Soft fork down, then obviously it's because you don't have 51 percent hashrate support, so that was like obvious to me, OK, the hard fork is what you do when you don't have the hashrate. 40:12 And bizarrely, with Bitcoin Cash, they had with SegWit2x, they had 83 percent of the hashrate. 40:18 So if they had done a mandatory extension block to increase the block size, then the large blockers would have won the block size war. 40:26 So every single time it just seems bizarre to me. 40:29 I just think, OK, why didn't they why didn't the large blockers do the mandatory extension block? 40:34 Because they had 83 percent hashrate signing SegWit2x. 40:37 Why did Luke insist on a soft fork when they had two percent or really half a percent of hashrate for the soft fork? 40:47 And then so it's just like now they're doing the hard fork, but they don't have any of this stuff. 40:51 Freaked out the name, the brand, the hard fork is also I think it's way worse than Bitcoin Cash. 40:57 I mean, I presumably hear people here would agree. 40:59 I don't maybe it's going to be worse than BSV, in my opinion. 41:03 I think I completely agree like that. 41:07 Even Bitcoin Cash was like, OK, at least we get to see this experiment with eight megabyte blocks and then later 32 megabyte and then whatever. 41:14 So we get a little bit of competition. 41:16 And then with Bitcoin SV, I also thought it had scientific value in the sense of like, OK, we can see like, here's what happens if you uncap the block size. 41:26 I just can't imagine a dude doing a fork and legitimately like Craig Wright being like, now that dude's weird. 41:34 You know what I mean? Like, fuck. 41:35 I know that would be so funny if he if he like joined the space right now or before. 41:39 That would have been so ingenious, like just from like a branding marketing. 41:44 I feel like I feel like you lucked out like you. 41:47 You're they did such a bad job with one time. 41:50 It actually makes your fork look like semi like, oh, wow, this is like totally not that bad, you know, Jesus. 41:57 Yeah, I was kind of vaguely wondering like if I would become like the villain and get a lot of attention that way. 42:02 But I totally there was a swing and a miss on that theory because Luke, he became like an even more crazed villain. 42:10 And he was a much better villain than even I could probably be because because he's even more he's got even more Bitcoin clout. 42:17 And he was like just saying even more deranged stuff like, of course, he was saying, of course, 110 will activate. 42:24 Obviously, it will. Obviously, it has consensus. 42:27 Obviously, the people who don't support it are in favor of CSAM. 42:30 Obviously, he was just like he was just this he was just scoring these villain points. 42:35 And I don't blame anyone for everyone's like, oh, we want to beat up. 42:38 Do we want to beat up Luke, who is like this huge target? 42:43 And he's like so antagonistic. 42:46 And then it's like or. 42:49 Do you want to come into the lion's den with Paul and talk about his obscure, weird Drivechain thing? 42:54 People barely understand. 42:56 I don't like minutes of silence instead. 43:03 We were there. 43:05 Can we do either of those things? 43:08 So we're going to have to have this for just because I just want to. 43:12 Well, I got to get him to sign the fucking spork. 43:14 I guess we'll do it whether whether it happens or not. 43:16 But I think it's, you know, it's all fun games. 43:19 I mean, I get to dump. 43:21 I mean, I'm fucking cool. 43:23 I get to dump three times. 43:24 I don't know who will list the way. 43:26 I have an interesting plan for for liquidity and exchange integration. 43:32 So. I'm hoping to be able to announce it very soon. 43:37 But even still. 43:41 Really, the main event is delayed till October. 43:44 But like I said, I think it's because we really had lots and lots of questions 43:48 about like things that I thought maybe we could explain better. 43:51 People are like, oh, how do I mine? 43:53 How do I whatever I was like, oh, I guess it's not really clear to people. 43:56 So we were just late in like assembling something. 44:01 Some stuff is not our fault. 44:02 It's just related to like crazy app store stuff. 44:06 And like there's lots of delays about like, who are the main actors? 44:10 It's you and who who like LayerTwo Labs or every like 44:14 volunteered to take the, you know, take the what you might call the I don't know, 44:21 to like take the, you know, criticism for other people. 44:28 But if you join, you can join the Telegram group. 44:30 You can see there's about nine hundred twenty people 44:35 in the Drivechain Telegram group, and then there's a group that's newer 44:40 but has a few people. 44:41 We did raise five million dollars worth of investment. 44:44 So even though people don't really care, we'll get one of the five. 44:48 What are they going to get the Satoshi's coins? 44:52 Oh, shit. 44:56 So I have so I know that the coin sold at some price. 45:01 So I have so it's all above the Bitcoin SV price. 45:06 So I was like, oh, that's good. 45:07 Yeah. I mean, if we somehow came out ahead of Bitcoin Cash, I would think, well, 45:10 we had the number one Bitcoin fork. 45:12 So I don't know if that's in the cards, but I think 45:16 actually Bitcoin Cash made a lot of mistakes. 45:18 And actually, they were not a permanent solution to anything because, 45:24 you know, they hard forked to expand the block size. 45:26 But then they didn't. 45:29 They would have had to keep hard forking to expand the block size. 45:31 So no one thinks that the unlimited one full node cost is a good idea. 45:36 And then they ran into the same developer capture problem 45:38 that they said that they had. 45:40 Like they were like, you know, whatever. 45:43 We hate Bitcoin Core. We hate Greg Maxwell, whatever. 45:46 Then they were like, oh, our own devs suck. 45:48 We also hate them. 45:50 We hate Omri or whatever. 45:51 So they so they didn't solve any of their own problems permanently. 45:55 And I have, you know, a lot of issues with. 46:00 Bitcoin Cash, I think it's actually. 46:03 Not that great. 46:04 So I would hope to be better than that, and if we were, 46:07 then that would be pretty cool. 46:09 It's interesting how fall, you know, Bitcoin Cash and stuff has fallen so much. 46:14 In terms of price, I haven't looked it up. 46:17 I think it was like I don't know if it's like something like when the, you know, 46:21 200 to 100 right now, 46:24 when Bitcoin was like 50,000, 200,000, right? 46:27 So you see like Bitcoin. 46:30 Maybe like Bitcoin could be 100,000 Bitcoin Cash could be like whatever, like 500. 46:36 So that's like less than that's like half a percent. 46:39 So you can see like the number one Bitcoin fork is half a percent. 46:44 Of and even the number one altcoin, which is Ethereum, 46:46 is like less than 25 percent of BTC. 46:51 So BTC really is the king. 46:53 And actually, in one sense, maybe it's arrogant to try to beat Bitcoin Cash. 46:58 But in another sense, I think that's really, really low bar. 47:01 It's just half a you know, I'm just going to give people one percent, 47:03 you know, on their Bitcoin, which is not very much. 47:07 And that would be double Bitcoin Cash. Right. 47:09 So I'd like to think that's because Bitcoin Cash is objectively not that good. 47:14 But maybe mine would be even worse than that. 47:17 So I don't know. 47:18 Just trying to give you guys some free money. 47:20 Also measuring from different places. 47:22 Right. Because Bitcoin Cash started out as a much higher 47:25 percentage and then and then dropped over time to that lower amount. 47:30 That's right. And I think actually people should reflect on the fact that 47:35 these hard forks, I think, could be really good for everyone, 47:38 because when Bitcoin Cash first launched, it was something like 15 percent 47:43 of BTC price. Yeah. 47:45 So, I mean, that's not what I'm trying to say. 47:50 But I think like there were a lot of forks after Bitcoin Cash, 47:55 but these were mostly jokes. Right. 47:57 So no one really expects like Bitcoin Gold, Bitcoin Diamond. 47:59 They weren't really like about anything. 48:01 There wasn't like a philosophical 48:04 impetus or, you know, kind of rise in detra. 48:07 There wasn't like a there wasn't a reason for the 48:11 for those forks. 48:13 So and then Bitcoin SV was a fork of Bitcoin Cash after like it had already 48:17 fallen for years and years and years. 48:18 So actually, we can't learn that much from, 48:22 you know, Bitcoin Diamond, Bitcoin Private, Bitcoin, whatever, 48:25 or even Bitcoin SV in terms of a political. 48:32 Yes. Have you considered the unholy matrimony 48:36 of going to Luke and saying, Luke, 48:40 you can make your holy Drivechain like you. 48:43 You come over here instead of the first drivechain. 48:48 It can have Bible verses in every coin base and it'll be pristine. 48:53 And we will we'll form this Voltron of sorts. 48:57 Have you ever considered this? 48:58 I have some people in the group actually propose that they say, 49:01 oh, can we have a 110 on anything? 49:04 That's why they're not going to get it. 49:05 Well, I think some of it, some of the hatred comes from 2014, right? 49:09 He lost the OP_RETURN wars back then for Counterparty. 49:12 So this has been on his mind for like at least a decade. 49:16 Unfortunately, I really think it was a big mistake to not. 49:19 This is like throw the ring into the fire. 49:20 Speaking of Gollum and metaphors, 49:23 we should have really just uncapped the OP_RETURN the whole time 49:27 because it planted this seed. 49:29 Who would have known if someone had told you like, oh, 49:31 we're going to lose all of two thousand twenty four through two thousand 49:35 twenty six after two and twenty six talking about uncapping it? 49:40 I don't think that. 49:43 I don't think and then Luke actually killed an awful lot of stuff. 49:46 Luke gets credit for a lot of things, which is fine. 49:49 But I think 47 was actually very, very good, 49:53 especially considering how early in the timeline it was. 49:57 And we could have all you know, we could have had no addresses, 50:01 you know, for 10 years. 50:02 So where would the user and who knows if we weren't distracted by this issue, 50:06 maybe the whole the whole path would have been different. 50:08 You know, who knows? I don't know. 50:10 But maybe we would have had a question for you. 50:12 And thank you for building on Bitcoin. 50:14 Can you maybe explain the difference between like your Drivechain 50:17 and what maybe something like an L2 counterparty would offer? 50:20 Like, I'm trying to understand the differences between both 50:23 and the advantages or disadvantage of each one. 50:28 Well, counterparty is very, very similar, I suppose, 50:31 but counterparty cannot move BTC that is inside of it. 50:35 And that's the that's the whole point, really, is that you would do stuff 50:38 with the you'd make transactions and payments with BTC. 50:42 So that's how you'd make BTC payments on the L2, the Drivechain L2. 50:46 Or you would do stuff like you have like a BitNames, Namecoin L2. 50:53 And you would there you would have like this bit DNS thing 50:57 that's similar to Namecoin that Satoshi helped invent in 2010. 51:01 And you would buy and sell the names like with BTC, 51:03 and then the seller would obtain the payment 51:05 and then they would be able to walk that money back, 51:08 withdraw the L2 back on L1, the same way you can have money 51:12 on the Lightning Network. Lightning Network is L2. 51:17 But notice that when it's in the Lightning Network, it has different properties, 51:20 like you can split it to different decimal points and things. 51:23 But then when you withdraw it, you end up with the L1 transaction. 51:27 And everyone here knows that there's not enough space on the L1. 51:32 So ultimately, users will have to be on the L2 51:36 in some way or another. 51:38 And so the question is just 51:40 which stuff is mandatory for which people. 51:44 And I think Drivechain adds an awful lot of creativity for that. 51:48 Basically, it says anything you can do with an altcoin, you could do with Bitcoin. 51:52 And that's the idea is not to like necessarily defend every idea, 51:56 but just to say, hey, if it can be done on an altcoin, 52:00 why not do it with Bitcoin? 52:02 And it's a slightly reduced security model, but not really, because 52:07 the security model is basically that the miners enjoy collecting transaction fees 52:11 more than they enjoy destroying the source of those fees. 52:16 And so that's not really that strong of an assumption, I think. 52:24 I think it's certainly better than nothing. 52:26 And then, of course, only people have to voluntarily go to the L2. 52:30 So even if you think it's a bad idea, then why? 52:34 Why stop other people from doing it? 52:35 But that's what I want to do, like a health and wellness check. 52:38 The miner can just for the same reason 52:41 that I don't let people dump shit in their fucking river, 52:47 air quote, upstream from my river, up quote, 52:51 because I still have to deal with the consequences 52:54 of them dumping shit in the water. 52:58 Yeah, see, there you are, I was going to I was going to call for health 53:00 and wellness check there. 53:01 You hadn't yelled yet, so I figured something was wrong. 53:04 He's running some tests on his block clock right now. 53:08 But I just wanted to bring up because there's a new protocol called X-Chain 53:11 coming out like this month, I guess, 53:14 that's based on kind of like the counterparty stuff. 53:16 And it allows. All right. All right. 53:19 I mean, OK, it's bad enough. 53:21 Well, one person has been around since 2014. 53:24 That's why. That's all. 53:25 No, that's not what this is. 53:27 But one interesting thing to point out, though, is that. 53:31 Have been inventing stuff this whole time. 53:33 A lot of it is terrible. 53:35 Ninety nine percent of it is terrible, but people have been inventing things 53:39 and people have been pushing the envelope in other ways. 53:42 For example, someone told me, I think at the beginning of 2022. 53:48 I think that was the year, January. 53:50 Someone told me that Solana only had really three nodes or maybe only one 53:57 because the cost of the Solana full node was so expensive 54:00 that they were like basically on death's door. 54:04 And they just had one guy, you know, the people, the creators of Solana. 54:08 But over time, they they got it down. 54:10 And now it's like you need to have this huge array of RAM and like what? 54:14 I don't know the exact specs, but the specs are enormous. 54:17 But it's it's down to something like whatever, like $20,000 a year. 54:21 And now there's many more than just three. 54:26 So the question is, obviously, that's very different 54:29 than what we would like in Bitcoin. But 54:33 are we really going to bet on our own infallibility? 54:38 And I think that is a big mistake. 54:40 We should just let people try their own stuff out. 54:43 Maybe 99 percent of it doesn't work. 54:46 And let's give people options. 54:49 The design of Drivechain is not is to minimize 54:53 the the effect of the L2s on the L1. 54:56 So that's the goal. 54:58 People try to say that it doesn't achieve that goal, but they argue 55:01 all this weird stuff about like, oh, someone somewhere will be making more money. 55:06 And so this is ecological effect. 55:10 But I think there's a huge ecological effect no matter what. 55:12 You know what I mean? 55:13 Like the fact that people are using USDT on Tron. 55:16 And that's that's why people 55:20 the fact that Trump has the Trump meme coin on Solana 55:25 and the Melania meme coin on Solana 55:28 and the fact that the darknet markets are XMR only. 55:31 And the fact that we have a counterparty guy in here 55:32 trying to talk about whatever he was talking about. 55:35 A new thing invented. 55:37 That's why people say crypto instead of Bitcoin, 55:40 you know, because they see the world has crypto in it 55:43 and they don't use Bitcoin. 55:45 They use this other stuff. 55:47 And so that's that's the bigger ecological effect 55:50 is that the the stuff is being tried out by people. 55:54 And why not make it a Bitcoin project? 55:56 That's what I saw. 55:56 The way I see it, this is the last Bitcoin maximalist project. 55:59 Why not have Trump and Melania coin on Bitcoin? 56:01 Why not? Exactly. 56:03 Yeah, man. Why not? 56:08 I know, but aren't you guys going down the same path as Luke 56:10 where you say we don't want certain users? 56:12 We don't want to. 56:13 Oh, I just don't care about penny anti bullshit 56:18 that sustains no consistent market demand is just highly low time. 56:23 You know, high time. 56:24 Preferably, maybe get out of bed. 56:27 I was in bed and you triggered me so much. 56:30 I had to get out, go downstairs. 56:31 So my wife doesn't fucking see me get bad. 56:33 I found spaces because she's probably going to divorce me. 56:36 Who the fuck is using shit coins right now? 56:38 Who's using any of the shit? 56:41 This is true, man. 56:42 I was working on it. 56:44 I was working. 56:44 I don't know anecdotally, but you can go to this site, crypto fees that info 56:49 and you can see that people pay way more money to use coins that aren't Bitcoin. 56:53 And you can see the transaction volume of USDT on Tron. 56:56 You think you can see things? 56:58 That's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's 57:02 that's fair coins. 57:05 Well, it's still a crypto use case because it involves like there's no. 57:09 So you want to make a Drivechain for a USDT or like a fiat coin? 57:15 Like that's where you think the market like what is about what I want? 57:19 Again, it's about we have all these people trying different things. 57:23 You think like you're under the impression 57:26 or you believe that these fiat coins are crypto? 57:29 Like it's more crypto than than like fiat. 57:34 Well, I think the USDT does help crypto an awful lot 57:37 because you can now do like these swaps and things. 57:41 So now it's it's been a huge like the it's an Achilles heel of Bitcoin 57:47 that you need the fiat leg of the exchange. 57:49 Like it was always if you went on like Mt. 57:51 Gox back in the day. 57:53 It's very easy to send BTC in and out, but it's. 57:57 Yeah, definitely more useful than before. 57:59 Yeah. So then why not have it just pay transaction fee in the Bitcoin network? 58:04 Writ large, you know, inclusive of the L2 fees. 58:07 What do you mean pay transaction fees? 58:09 Sure. A lot of the U.S. 58:11 The influence of the miners revenue streams and what they do or don't support. 58:19 I don't know about that one, dude, they. 58:23 Whatever Tron does, we can also do it 58:26 and it doesn't have to affect Bitcoin Core or L1 or anyone else. 58:30 Just the miners make more money. 58:32 But for what? Like what? 58:34 Why? Why do I want a fee? 58:36 What do you mean? Why? 58:37 Like it's they're paying customers. 58:39 Oh, I don't want a fucking fiat stable coin issuer to start having more 58:45 and more coercive influence over miners at the consensus level, 58:51 having arbitrary power over where and on what. 58:54 I mean, Tether has that today because Tether stack in Bitcoin. 58:58 So like they are an economic node. 59:00 I would say USDC doesn't like they they don't have any fucking sway over anything. 59:05 But it's like the it's a transaction fee is they're paying customers. 59:10 So it's like it's about it's the opposite of coercive, coercive. 59:15 Absolutely. 59:16 I mean, how many times does the other Bitcoin itself? 59:21 Everybody gets both sides. 59:23 They get even handed distribution. 59:25 They can make choices on both sides. 59:28 The issuer of a stable coin decides instantly 59:32 which side of the fork goes to zero and which side gets all of that miner revenue 59:37 and their users have zero control or input in it whatsoever. 59:44 Well, I think that, you know, again, this is why we don't just want to have that one use case. We want to have all the use cases. 59:51 So I also have this vision for instead of Lightning to have the payments L2s and instead of CoinJoin to have the Zcash Zside L2s. 1:00:01 So I have this whole thing where the stable coins are just one piece and the miners are making a huge amount of money. 1:00:07 But ultimately, I think it's both fair and inevitable that the miners be loyal to whoever is actually paying the transaction fee. 1:00:17 And I think that that is because the question is, like, what else would they be loyal to? 1:00:23 And I feel like whatever that answer is would be much, much worse. 1:00:27 Paul, then Bitcoin is a failure and it's going to implode on itself because the entire thing is incentive-unstable. 1:00:37 And anyone can just issue any new asset besides Bitcoin and outbid Bitcoin in miner revenue fees to censor Bitcoin to second-class Bitcoin. 1:00:48 Just because you issue something doesn't mean it's automatically more valuable than Bitcoin. 1:00:53 That would be a neat trick, but I don't think it bears any resemblance to the truth. 1:00:58 You know what I mean? You can issue something new, but Tether had to build up their reputation for... 1:01:04 And as you know, they went through many ups and downs and periods where people doubted that they would ever get their money back. 1:01:11 And there were many crises. Now they have an extremely... 1:01:15 You have to consider the added valuation of every possible tokenization scheme that exists. 1:01:22 If you're talking about proof-of-work as a fully generalized thing that anyone can just jump on board and pay fees. 1:01:29 The whole thing is incentive-unstable. 1:01:31 Well, again, though, you pay the fee in BTC in my scheme or in eCash in the fork. 1:01:38 Even though you have assets, it's a little bit like Ethereum where you would move the USDT, but you pay the ETH fee. 1:01:46 There's nothing new. 1:01:48 You pay the BTC fee. 1:01:50 Dude, there is absolutely no way for you to enforce that or prevent miners from just accepting things and all your tokens out of ban. 1:01:58 We have the L2 called BitAssets, and that's just how it works. 1:02:03 So someone could make something else. 1:02:05 My guess is that the miners don't want to have everyone's stamp collection and to collect various 12,000 Melania coins. 1:02:16 How about every major fiat currency? And then how about the equities? 1:02:20 Oh, and why don't we toss REITs in there too? 1:02:23 And let's just start thinking about everything we can tokenize. 1:02:26 We're now an issuer, and a centralized party decides if miners get or don't get on what side of what fork any revenue from any of these things. 1:02:37 And let's see how fucking incentive-stable an arrangement like that is. 1:02:41 It's completely unstable. 1:02:46 No individual token or use can have any predictability or stability about access to the system, about fucking censorship resistance in that system, 1:02:58 because it's this fucking totally unstable equilibrium where any token can just butt in that has a valuation. 1:03:05 Yeah, and my thing, anyone can just make whatever token they want. 1:03:08 You want to make Shinobi coin, you can make 10 trillion Shinobi coin on BitAssets. 1:03:13 That's the L2. 1:03:15 And when you pay to create it, you pay in what would be BTC or eCash in this case. 1:03:22 And then when people move it, they pay the transaction fee. 1:03:26 And I don't see anything wrong with that whatsoever. 1:03:29 I think that's totally normal. 1:03:30 And we're talking about REITs and stocks. 1:03:32 This is the way the real world works. 1:03:34 You move. 1:03:35 People trade those things all the time. 1:03:37 There is a transaction fee. 1:03:40 There is a FINRA regulatory fee of some kind. 1:03:45 There's flat fees. 1:03:46 There's fees based on percent. 1:03:48 That's how the New York Stock Exchange works. 1:03:50 That's how whatever, all these other things, CME, CBOE, that's how the real world works. 1:03:56 It seems to work just fine without bursting into flames. 1:04:00 I think we should try it. 1:04:02 And I think that hating on the use case is a really bad sign. 1:04:08 I think people are missing the point. 1:04:12 Hold on a second. 1:04:13 I think people are missing the point of tokenization in the first place. 1:04:17 Because people don't understand that the entire market of Wall Street is rehypothecated. 1:04:23 Does anybody know about securities lending? 1:04:25 If you understand that Patrick Byrne spent $20 million to prove that 75% of Goldman Sachs revenue came from equities lending, 1:04:33 which is lending out of stock 20X. 1:04:36 Because when you naked short sell a stock, you only have to locate the stock. 1:04:40 You don't actually have to own it. 1:04:41 And so the rehypothecation of equities is a major, major problem in our equities markets. 1:04:48 And so that problem needs to be solved. 1:04:51 And I'm not saying I know the correct answer. 1:04:53 I'm saying there is a problem and a use case for tokenization. 1:04:55 And the solution is not Bitcoin. 1:04:58 Well, you know, there is one. 1:05:01 Hold on a second. 1:05:02 There is one protocol. 1:05:03 And just in a comparison to what Paul is doing, is that the only other L2 we have that has the same thermodynamics as Bitcoin is counterparty. 1:05:12 Bitcoins do not benefit in any way from thermodynamic security. 1:05:16 Shinobi token, which is redeemable to me for, I don't fucking know, a joint, is not fucking benefiting in any way whatsoever by using the Bitcoin blockchain. 1:05:31 Because I can just laugh in your face and say, go fuck yourself. 1:05:35 Yeah, but here's the problem, Shinobi. 1:05:37 We don't have pre-open markets. 1:05:40 And so the problem here is that only a small group of people get to control access to capital markets. 1:05:47 So you have to go to the SEC. 1:05:49 You need $4 million and 40 lawyers to open any type of capital market where, in reality, a totally free market would allow anybody to create a token, start a company, and go from there. 1:06:00 Oh my god, dude. 1:06:01 It's almost like you don't understand that the SEC wasn't just like, hey guys, I had this crazy idea for literally no reason. 1:06:12 Like, the SEC exists for fucking reasons. 1:06:17 Do you know the SEC actually has the same initials as a security exchange company that Charles Ponzi started? 1:06:25 Do you know that little tidbit? 1:06:26 The entire thing is a Ponzi, bro. 1:06:28 What are you talking about? 1:06:31 I think it doesn't matter if the idea ultimately works or not. 1:06:36 Because I think the Drivechain idea is about people trying lots and lots of ideas. 1:06:42 Some will fail. 1:06:43 But I think I don't care why someone wants to do it. 1:06:49 If they want to do it, then they should be able to do it on Bitcoin. 1:06:52 That's the BIP300 idea. 1:06:55 This used to be something that everyone believed. 1:06:57 But over time, everyone has started to say, oh, we never wanted Bitcoin to be private. 1:07:02 We never wanted Bitcoin to scale, or at least not like this. 1:07:05 And we never wanted people to be able to do stuff on Bitcoin. 1:07:08 And we never thought Bitcoin was open source and that people would just merge good ideas. 1:07:12 So I think if we have to run every single idea by Shinobi, no offense, Shinobi, but I just don't think that you actually know any of this stuff that you're talking about. 1:07:23 If me just poking holes in your idea is enough to stop it from going anywhere, then I don't know what to tell you, man. 1:07:32 It's not me. 1:07:34 I'm talking about the premise of, do you think every idea should run by you? 1:07:41 And if you think it's bad, we automatically shouldn't do it in Bitcoin. 1:07:44 No, Paul. 1:07:45 You do these weird characterizations all the time. 1:07:50 We don't want Bitcoin to be private anymore. 1:07:54 We don't want Bitcoin to scale anymore. 1:07:56 Some ways of trying to do that come with negative downsides. 1:08:05 That Bitcoin is an incentive system. 1:08:07 And when you introduce very large open-ended new variables into that incentive system, they can have negative consequences. 1:08:19 They can be very unpredictable. 1:08:21 You can't just go, this is the new incentive structure and that is it because it is so fucking wide open-ended. 1:08:29 And a lot of us are just not okay with those kinds of things. 1:08:33 Because as people who want Bitcoin to survive in the long term, this incentive structure is working. 1:08:40 Let's not radically fuck with it. 1:08:43 So Michael Saylor is going to tokenize MicroStrategy stock. 1:08:48 Trump is going to push tokenization of real world assets. 1:08:52 Larry Fink is going to tokenize the equities market. 1:08:54 So Shinobi, what are you going to do when that starts happening? 1:08:57 You want it to happen on Bitcoin or you want it to happen on a shitcoin? 1:08:59 Bitcoin provides no value to those things. 1:09:02 There is a lot of value. 1:09:04 Bitcoin is the anchor of truth for all of it. 1:09:06 What are you talking about? 1:09:07 There are a lot of good reasons to tokenize these fucking things. 1:09:11 But tokenizing them on Bitcoin adds zero value to them. 1:09:17 There is no value. 1:09:19 You can timestamp anything with 32 bytes. 1:09:24 You do not need to put tokens on Bitcoin. 1:09:27 You can timestamp records of external fucking systems and verify them all fucking day to your heart's content. 1:09:34 They are still trusted assets that require trust in a centralized issuer. 1:09:41 And putting them on Bitcoin does not change that. 1:09:44 It adds no value. 1:09:46 It benefits them in no way whatsoever. 1:09:49 I think just Bitcoiners have a fundamental misunderstanding of capital markets. 1:09:54 And they do not understand that the free market through tokenization will be what the future is about. 1:10:00 And people can issue their own tokens. 1:10:02 And they can get rugged. 1:10:03 Or you can buy the Michael Saylor strategy token. 1:10:05 Did you not hear anything I said in the start there? 1:10:07 You are talking out of your asshole, bro. 1:10:09 You do not know what you are talking about. 1:10:11 Oh my god. 1:10:12 Because g-money is… 1:10:15 We are going to tokenize all of this on Pulse Fork. 1:10:19 So that is what Pulse is doing. 1:10:22 If you are right that it is a bad idea, then it will just be a bad idea on eCash. 1:10:27 Perfect. 1:10:28 So it is all going to be like a bubble. 1:10:30 Right. 1:10:31 And then we are going to have atomic swaps between eCash and Bitcoin. 1:10:34 Everyone can live a happy life. 1:10:36 We can and we probably will. 1:10:39 I think Paul is the machine raven. 1:10:42 Interesting to say that. 1:10:44 Okay, so Shinobi is a big drive-chain hater. 1:10:47 It is probably the biggest drive-chain hater. 1:10:49 Paul, I have a question. 1:10:51 Why didn't you merge my eCash? 1:10:53 Well, I will get to that in a second. 1:10:55 But then Shinobi wrote this five-part article for Bitcoin Magazine. 1:10:59 And then he wrote this thing about sidechains, the holy grail, the most important thing. 1:11:03 And then there was like, I do not remember, maybe part four or something. 1:11:06 So he wrote this huge thing and part four is about drive-chain. 1:11:09 And I am like, oh good, here is this long-form piece of writing. 1:11:11 I am going to get to finally learn what Shinobi's problem is. 1:11:15 And then in one tiny little, he has this huge thing about drive-chain. 1:11:19 And then this one tiny little sentence he says, oh, that drive-chain relies on UASFs to keep the withdrawals. 1:11:26 Which is not even true. 1:11:28 And then I was like, oh. 1:11:30 No, no, no, no, no. 1:11:32 It was like after he wrote this giant, after all these years, thousands and thousands of people waiting on this idea. 1:11:38 He just has one sentence that is not even true about UASFs. 1:11:41 Mr. Hoddle, you shut up right now. 1:11:44 I was like, what? 1:12:06 I didn't see the other one, but I don't know, maybe you can link it to me. 1:12:09 I just saw this five-part, well-researched thing about side-chains. 1:12:12 And then this part four is the drive-chain part. 1:12:14 And then I was like, this whole thing, it just has one negative sentence in the entire long tweet. 1:12:20 One negative sentence is not even right. 1:12:22 And I was like, what the heck? 1:12:24 The end of that series was my analysis of all the different designs. 1:12:30 But I kept each isolated article before that a purely objective description of how they worked. 1:12:37 So people could go into my analysis of things having an objective brief of how they all worked first. 1:12:45 Rather than just here's Shinobi's analysis. 1:12:49 But Paul, your solution for minor theft is UASF, right? 1:12:57 No, that's not right. 1:12:59 What is it? 1:13:02 At the beginning, it's the draw of the fees more than what the miners would gain by attacking the chain and killing the source of the fees. 1:13:12 And this is not that complicated. 1:13:14 Paul, you literally used to talk about the UASF button. 1:13:17 You literally used to talk about the UASF button. 1:13:20 I have tweets, I'm sure I could find right now, of you saying we UASF it. 1:13:25 I think I described a huge, it's like a defense in depth kind of a thing. 1:13:30 Where I define these are some things that might happen in the course of giving a really thorough analysis. 1:13:36 But that is not the model. 1:13:38 If you go to the original 2015 post, you can see that I have four levels of what you might assume in terms of paranoia. 1:13:47 You had a UASF button. 1:13:51 You used to talk about the UASF button. 1:13:53 But you're not looking specifically for a transaction. 1:13:56 It changed the model since then. 1:13:59 Now it's a new model. Relax. 1:14:01 If you go to the 2015 article, you see I have four layers of paranoia. 1:14:06 And the reason this is important is because it's a deterrent. 1:14:09 Defense is like a deterrent. 1:14:11 So if you're going to rob someone's house, you're going to think, well, wait a minute. 1:14:14 Maybe they have a dog, but maybe they don't. 1:14:16 Or maybe they have a gun, and maybe they don't. 1:14:18 And maybe they have an alarm, but maybe they don't. 1:14:21 So even if you just kind of think that they might, it might be enough to persuade you to just leave well enough alone. 1:14:29 The BitBoy Tenor should have probably showed you that that's not always true. 1:14:35 And so I write about some of these things. 1:14:38 I say, hey, listen. 1:14:39 One of the things that I write about. 1:14:41 Can I just finish my point? 1:14:42 Just say I changed my mind. 1:14:45 Because I write about, hey, if people are so against you that they're determined to UASF, then you'll never succeed with the theft. 1:14:54 So maybe you shouldn't even try it because you'll lose a bunch of goodwill. 1:14:57 You may destroy the brand of your mining pool. 1:14:59 And maybe— 1:15:00 Yeah, but shit. 1:15:01 I mean, you're at all-time highs, and Bitcoin is at all-time highs. 1:15:04 You're never going to see that money ever again. 1:15:06 You pull the rug. 1:15:07 You used to talk about a little fucking window in the GUI that would show all the fucking— 1:15:12 But don't you understand the reason why I talked about that is because the UASF is very, very, very easy to do because— 1:15:21 Okay, Paul, you can just say I changed my mind, okay? 1:15:26 Like you can just— 1:15:28 Let me finish, though. 1:15:29 Because the withdrawals have to be announced, and you have to make progress towards them months in advance. 1:15:38 So it's very, very vulnerable to just— 1:15:40 It will show up in the list. 1:15:42 There can only be one or two things in the list, either one real and one fake or all of them being fake and only one being progress. 1:15:49 So it's very, very easy. 1:15:51 That's the point I was making. 1:15:53 It's like living in a world where someone can go out and buy an alarm and a gun and a dog in like 10 seconds. 1:16:02 So I'm saying, actually, the deterrent— 1:16:07 Well, you may feel that way, but it's very clear that you can— 1:16:15 It doesn't matter anymore. 1:16:17 This is not on Bitcoin. 1:16:19 You're forking Bitcoin. 1:16:20 So who cares? 1:16:22 Whatever. 1:16:23 At this point, it doesn't even matter. 1:16:24 If they steal, you can just hard fork them out. 1:16:27 You can do whatever you want. 1:16:30 I have been doing this for 10 years. 1:16:32 No, Paul, you are gaslighting me. 1:16:35 No, no, no. 1:16:37 I know. 1:16:38 Listen, that was on Bitcoin before. 1:16:41 No, but Shinobi, time out. 1:16:43 Everything he was saying before was on Bitcoin. 1:16:45 So UASF, that's all Bitcoin. 1:16:47 Now he's not doing it on Bitcoin. 1:16:49 He's doing it on his own chain. 1:16:51 And when you're doing it on your own chain, you can do whatever the fuck he wants. 1:16:54 You can fork in, fork out, whatever you want. 1:16:58 I don't think I'll have that much control over it after it launches, 1:17:01 because it will be kind of on autopilot. 1:17:03 You'll have control for the foreseeable future, Paul. 1:17:06 I promise you. 1:17:08 No, I don't think what you say will happen. 1:17:10 How many of Satoshi's coins are you going to have yourself, Paul? 1:17:13 Oh, well, you know, I don't know if I should talk about who's getting the coins, 1:17:17 but most— 1:17:18 Of course not. 1:17:20 If this is an honest airdrop, it's all got to be public. 1:17:26 Not an honest airdrop, though, is it? 1:17:28 It's not an honest airdrop? 1:17:30 The people— 1:17:32 You got pre-mines? 1:17:33 Of course, you'll see on which UTXOs end up getting them. 1:17:37 Yeah, but we don't know who the fuck they are. 1:17:39 Yeah, but why would anyone give that information? 1:17:42 This is an interesting question. 1:17:46 When you reassign those UTXOs, you're moving them at the time of the fork immediately, or what? 1:17:52 That's right. 1:17:54 Okay, so you'll see them immediately move. 1:17:57 But you don't necessarily know who they're moving to. 1:17:59 I'll advertise, Paul. I'll advertise. 1:18:02 Hook me up with some coins. I'll advertise. 1:18:04 Nice UTXO fork? I'm in. 1:18:07 Yeah, the more you guys show it, the more it might be worth. 1:18:12 Put a little pile aside for Mr. Hoddle. 1:18:15 I'm not going to let you get away with trying to gaslight me, Paul. 1:18:19 You talked about a UASF for Bitcoin. 1:18:24 It's not like the first line of defense or the main line of defense. 1:18:28 It's just a discussion of why people would not even want to sacrifice their goodwill. 1:18:33 No, it was you discussing a feature to prevent that. 1:18:37 That was for Bitcoin. This is eCash. 1:18:40 Anyone who's listening who cares, you got Shinobi and Peter Todd on one side. 1:18:45 And Peter Todd also did a piece of writing. 1:18:47 And basically every single sentence, I made a giant image. 1:18:50 I screenshotted the image. 1:18:51 And basically every single sentence Peter said was wrong. 1:18:54 And I go through it in detail. 1:18:57 And so you got Shinobi and Peter on one side. 1:18:59 And then you could go to LayerTwoLabs.com slash friends. 1:19:02 And you could see all the people who think that this is at least worth trying. 1:19:07 It's definitely worth trying on another chain like your chain. 1:19:10 This includes Robin Linus. This includes Adam Back. 1:19:13 This includes Rene Picard. 1:19:15 Shinobi, why do you have a problem with eCash? 1:19:18 Sorry, with what? 1:19:21 No, I'm asking Shinobi. What's the problem with eCash? He's not doing it on Bitcoin. 1:19:24 You're the one who is forking off of Bitcoin. I rest my case. 1:19:28 Yeah, but so what? He knows that. He cares. 1:19:31 He knows that. He admits this isn't a problem. He's willing to. 1:19:37 I actually think he's coming from the perspective that he'd rather not split. 1:19:42 How did me and just Peter Todd stop Bitcoin from doing something? 1:19:47 No, no. People who don't like the idea. People who do like the idea versus. 1:19:52 If somebody doesn't like the idea, it doesn't mean they could stop you from 1:19:55 fucking doing that idea. You could still do it. You could have easily tried to fork 1:20:00 a soft fork yourself. Those fuckers did at 55 percent. Yeah, you could have done a soft fork. 1:20:04 No, but you know, the same way as Bitcoin. You know, we do have that. That's what the 1:20:09 BIP300 activator is. That's basically the activation client. So we have that. We put 1:20:14 that out and that's that. So that's that's an option. Bitcoin could still add BIP300, 1:20:21 BIP301 really at any time and it can for the foreseeable future. But I think we all know that 1:20:27 it won't. And I don't think it's because BIP300 is a bad idea. I just think it's because no one's 1:20:32 adding anything and no one has added anything in the last 10 years except for two soft forks to 1:20:38 support lightning. And now people are pulling up the ladder behind them or people don't know 1:20:45 the knowledge of how to do the soft fork has been lost. 1:20:49 So I don't think everything is going as planned. 1:20:56 Everything is going according to plan. We have someone with a hand up. 1:21:00 Hey, what's up, guys? Hey, Wicked. Hey, Paul. Good to be here. Good to have you up here. I was on 1:21:06 one of Wicked's spaces Saturday, actually, and asked a question regarding the eCash hard fork, 1:21:12 particularly the fact that I believe it does not have replay protection. And if that's true, 1:21:21 without replay protection, how would you suggest people split their UTXO set so that they don't 1:21:29 send original BTC to an eCash wallet or an eCash DEX? Unfortunately, I think I misexplained this 1:21:39 because I've given people the wrong idea. So it must be partially my fault to some extent. But 1:21:45 it does have replay protection, but what it does not have, by default, it does not. So what I had 1:21:51 in mind was people would switch to our software if they cared, and then our software would 1:21:55 automatically split the coins. So we would never do something where, or at least by default it 1:22:02 doesn't, and it would try to warn you, it would never do something where you send the eCash 1:22:06 around and it sends BTC. And that was never even on my mind that that would even happen. 1:22:12 And what I did have in mind, though, was that if people say, hey, I'm not even paying any 1:22:17 attention to this eCash hard fork. I'm going to send my BTC somewhere. Well, then the eCash will 1:22:22 go to the new owner as well. And I like that because I think, well, you know, if you're not 1:22:27 paying attention, then you don't want it. And maybe it'll go to someone who does want it, and they can 1:22:33 split it. So if you like, okay, so first of all, there's, if you go to github.com slash eCash dash com, 1:22:41 then there's a fast fax repo that's pinned. And that has, sounds like a state, this sounds 1:22:48 like a state let's stop. And let me tell you why. Now, if someone really wants more eCash, 1:22:53 what would they do? They would probably put all their Bitcoin on. 1:23:03 Yeah, no, I hope that people, I think that that's funny and that's called phishing 1:23:08 for the, and I think there's already groups that want to do that. And some of them were 1:23:12 disappointed about the phased launch. That's doxing their set though. That's bad. That's 1:23:17 privacy. That's any, that's any UTXO fork. Right. I agree. No, no, no, no. Because here you are 1:23:27 explicitly doxing it by going to a KYC. Well, you know, this KYC exchange thing, I actually think 1:23:33 it's pretty weak. Like for example. Wait, wait, what do you mean? Why do I have to go to a KYC 1:23:39 exchange? Because when you withdraw it from the KYC, so when you withdraw the BTC from the 1:23:43 exchange, you are assuming the exchange isn't going to be paying attention and will also give 1:23:47 you the eCash. It might give you lots and lots. You can keep depositing and withdrawing and you 1:23:51 get different eCash all the time, but you just keep doing it over and over. Paul, that's not 1:23:55 good. Paul, that's not good. I like it. I think it's funny. I think it's great. No, it's actually, 1:23:59 I think it actually is. I would very much caution anybody against doing something like that because 1:24:07 the legality of that is very, very. Have you talked to exchanges about this yet? Do they know 1:24:13 that? If people like, you know, this is how it is and this is how, you know, if you want, 1:24:19 if you still want to ignore it, I think it's a perfectly just. Well, that's my, this is my 1:24:24 question, Paul. I don't want to ignore it, but I'm, I'm not also inclined to just necessarily 1:24:30 send my Bitcoin. You just have to run the new software and move your right. And that's what I 1:24:37 don't. What if I don't want to do that? There's a way of splitting. And again, if you go to, 1:24:44 and we link to, if you just go to eCash.com and click the GitHub icon in the top, right, 1:24:48 but it's github.com slash eCash dash com slash fast facts. There's a fast facts repo that it 1:24:56 has lots of facts, like how to mine, how to split the coins, whatever, you know, a lot of stuff is 1:25:02 up there. Like what are the ports? Have you decided on the difficulty yet? I thought you 1:25:06 were supposed to be, wait, you were supposed to be telling me which block or whatever I should, 1:25:11 but no, I think one, one advantage, there's many advantages. Well, hold on. Well, hold on, 1:25:15 Paul. Why, why not just add replay protection and make it simple? Well, there is opt-in replay. 1:25:21 Then it's not as fun. Yeah. I think the alternative is to have immediate total transaction 1:25:27 replay. But I don't think that that, I don't like that because that's basically. I mean, 1:25:32 but if you want, if you want exchanges to, like, if you want all exchanges to eventually list it, 1:25:37 wouldn't you want, like, wouldn't you need that? Once they list it, then. Yeah, 1:25:41 but then they're putting it on that software. Yeah. Then they know how. It's only the ones 1:25:44 who aren't that get that good game. Yeah. I think I want to reward. Which makes it actually kind 1:25:49 of gameable for the users who are interested in it. I mean, I think it's actually kind of 1:25:55 an interesting idea. There you go. Although you can say legally, I don't know if it's a great 1:26:02 idea, but I just think, yeah, if you're not paying attention, you're going to get left behind. So, 1:26:07 you know, we punish those that which stumbles must also be pushed. 1:26:12 We're afraid to put malware in this fucking software. People are going to explain. You 1:26:17 guys asking an awful lot of questions at once. You know, I got to explain you can do it even 1:26:21 without big brains. You don't download our software. You can. It's the nLockTime. 1:26:27 It's the blog. It's whatever. It's like four, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, 1:26:30 but I would look up the exact number so you don't get it wrong. This is you make the transaction 1:26:35 in in the Bitcoin wallet. You just set and lock time to this value. And this will produce a valid 1:26:41 Bitcoin transaction, but it can't be broadcast for like five hundred years or something. 1:26:44 So you have to worry about it. And but that but on eCash, it is valid. That's like this 1:26:49 particular date is a backdoor. So we'll just ignore it. You can just sign it with your 1:26:55 hardware wallet. I didn't exactly hear you said you broke up a little bit, but you can just grab 1:27:01 a PSBT and just sign it with a hardware. Yeah. Anything that lets you control the nLockTime 1:27:07 and then you don't have to import your private keys into any anything invented by us. I also 1:27:12 didn't want because I also thought, well, that's kind of a big ask to ask people to 1:27:15 put their real Bitcoin price, especially especially right now, especially in the 1:27:19 moments that we have. Right. I fucking told you Paul would consider all this shit, even he isn't 1:27:27 that big of a fucking dick. And yeah, and I thought that's that's like a big ask. And we 1:27:33 didn't want like I was kind of at first thinking maybe it would be OK if well, you guys don't 1:27:38 really care that much about the thought process because this guy has his hand up again. So let's 1:27:41 let's hear what he has to say. I think he forgot to put his hand ATF. No, 1:27:48 did he have to say something else or no? Maybe not another question. I don't see my hand up, 1:27:54 guys. Oh, weird. This, though, you know, I swear to God, this app is so popular. You know, 1:28:01 I'm talking about Twitter and the fact and I know that, you know, like fired 80 percent of the 1:28:06 people and it still works and it has all these new features, which is great. But I mean, 1:28:10 why is the reliability like so bad? I just baffles me. Such a such an important app. 1:28:18 So the layer one is you're lowering the block size, right? It's going to be 300 kilobytes. 1:28:24 Well, you know, people don't seem to really care about that. I thought that would be interesting 1:28:28 and I'd be like, we're the real small blocker chain now. And I almost thought that would get 1:28:31 like carve off the Luke dimension. Now, over time, I think the better thing because everything about 1:28:37 the L1 will be exactly the same as Bitcoin Core. And I was just thinking, you know, maybe we'll 1:28:41 just drop this thing. This is like the only change made other than the phased rollout. 1:28:47 See, the phased rollout is also good because it lets people practice fishing for the exchange, 1:28:52 lets people practice. It lets us gives us some idea what the price and the initial difficulty 1:28:56 should be wicked. So it's kind of easier to have it not be chaotic. So I think the phased rollout 1:29:03 has an awful lot of advantages, including stuff about this type of thing. So. So, yeah, 1:29:12 what's the first what's going to be the first draft change? You know, did anyone 1:29:16 we make seven and there's already four or five that the other people have made. 1:29:21 So there's quite a way you make you made seven. Yes. Oh, yes. 1:29:26 OK, what are they now? For a while, but it's not for a very long time. Back when Peter Todd 1:29:31 was saying no one's written any software for this, he said that one is large blocks for scaling. 1:29:37 So that's called Thunder. One made a large one, you can go on GitHub and look at the tests 1:29:44 yourself tested to nine hundred sixty megabytes, but of course, it wouldn't be that 1:29:50 nine hundred sixty megabyte block size. It started like eight and grow geometrically to 1:29:55 eight hundred the first one. But yeah, you've tested with 14 of these big blockchain with 14 1:30:01 of these. It's can cover all every transaction in the world. Including cash, credit card, 1:30:09 et cetera, WeChat pay as back of the envelope math, but actually and then with the 14 of those, 1:30:15 you have every transaction in the world and actually the performance is very good. We had 1:30:18 a hackathon about the performance last summer. So you can see the tests for yourself on GitHub. 1:30:23 You can see the machines. This is on the on the large block size. Right now, too. You don't need 1:30:32 to run a node on this L2. Of course, you need a node. People need the node, but the node performance 1:30:37 is very, very good. It can do you can walk up. But if it's nine hundred and if it's over nine 1:30:42 hundred megabyte block size limit and the chain gets full, like people use the entire block size. 1:30:49 What kind of fucking node do you need for that? It's already been you can see the exact numbers, 1:30:55 the exact machines that do the benchmark. You can see the exact bandwidth usage on the tests 1:31:02 on GitHub. It's all open source. You can see the test. You can see the hackathon we did. 1:31:07 It's called I think it's called Summer 2025 Performance Hackathon. I could get the link 1:31:13 and post it in the nest. And what were the results? How big of a hard drive? How much RAM 1:31:19 do you need for a full like, you know, if the chain is filled with nine hundred megabytes worth 1:31:26 of fricking transaction? Now it's like 50 years, only a few thousand, maybe two thousand dollars 1:31:31 to set up and maybe one thousand dollars a month to operate. So it's a it's some amount, but it's 1:31:36 not like some magically insurmountable amount, unlike the Lightning Network, which will never 1:31:41 work at all, no matter what people do. Probably the same for Ark and Fedimint, because the people 1:31:46 behind Fedimint don't know. So this would be basically, so this layer would be for like 1:31:51 Visas, right? Like this would be the layer that Visa would be using, right? MasterCard. Okay. 1:31:58 And then there'll be another layer that has small blocks for plebs? Well, yeah, the L1, the idea was 1:32:04 make the L1 very small. Oh, that's the L1. L1 would be the small of the pleb for plebs. 1:32:10 Because in practice, even Bitcoin's blocks are not even full anyway, so it's not. I don't think 1:32:15 anybody cares about anything, dude. I really think most of the shit is being lived on exchanges and 1:32:21 people are just trading it like that. They've been doing basically since day one. I think two 1:32:25 other features are BitAssets, which is like the, you know, that's like your NFT, Solana, 1:32:32 Memecoin, whatever, USDT, Stablecoin back thing that Shinobi really doesn't like. So that's like 1:32:39 BitAssets. And then there's bid names, which is like a souped up version of Namecoin. But Shinobi 1:32:44 is going to have trouble hating on that one because Satoshi helped invent Namecoin. He was 1:32:48 very enthusiastic about it. You already had Visas on Bitcoin. I don't think, why would Shinobi even, 1:32:54 on Bitcoin I can understand, but like this isn't, like this is a different chain completely. 1:32:59 You already had Visas protocol on Bitcoin. 1:33:02 I didn't hear what he said. What did he say? What do we have on Bitcoin? 1:33:05 We have Visas protocol on Bitcoin already. 1:33:08 I've never heard of it. 1:33:12 I mean, it's just a shitcoin with different features. 1:33:17 The one made by someone else is Zside, which is Zcash based. So it uses like the Z, 1:33:24 you have the Z addresses from Zcash world to hide the sender, the receiver, the amount. 1:33:29 It's very, very strong privacy. Of course, there's more of a risk with the experimental 1:33:33 cryptography. Like they had a bug, but they fixed it. So. 1:33:36 So now an exchange, so I'm in the Zcash sidechain. 1:33:43 And I say one, like an exchange would have to accept that sidechain, right? In order for me to 1:33:49 send. 1:33:50 Well, I think they probably would not. I would imagine this would be like the non-exchanged 1:33:55 L2, right? But it doesn't matter because from the L1, you can get to the L2 and back. 1:34:01 So that's how I think. I don't think people would put this on the exchange because the exchange. 1:34:06 The UTXOs get broken up. So like if I send a UTXO on layer one to layer two to like one of 1:34:14 the sidechains, and then I send it back to layer one, do I get the same UTXO or do I get a 1:34:20 different UTXO at that point? 1:34:22 No, you get a different UTXO. And I invented this thing called Meltcast. And Meltcast like 1:34:28 rinses the, it makes it because it's so easy. People often misuse the privacy on Zcash. 1:34:35 So I have like a front end user experience thing to try to stop that from happening. 1:34:40 No, but I mean like not just that, not just the privacy second, like sidechain, 1:34:44 I'm talking about like any second layer. If I send a UTXO into a sidechain, when I 1:34:50 bring it back into layer one, it's always going to be a different UTXO? 1:34:54 Yes. 1:34:56 So it's like a mixer, basically. You could use these sidechains just in and out as a mixer, 1:35:03 more or less. 1:35:04 Uh, yeah, I think people would. And that's what Meltcast. 1:35:07 I think that's, I think that's going to be the biggest use case. It's just people are 1:35:10 going to fucking use it to mix their UTXO. I mean, if it ever gets used and people are 1:35:13 trying to like stay private and keep their wallets private. 1:35:16 Well, I think the Bitcoin community is very important to, you know, obviously that's kind 1:35:21 of what kicked all this off. I think that's a very important, you know, because that was 1:35:26 how I used to explain Bitcoin to people is I would say, well, hey, Bitcoin can do every 1:35:32 dark market transaction, but of course it can also end up doing every light market transaction. 1:35:36 So it's only a matter of time before it starts taking over the world. 1:35:39 That was like how I explained Bitcoin in like 2013 to people. 1:35:46 Yeah. You just, the only thing I'm thinking is that all this stuff needs liquidity 1:35:52 for it to be used. And most of the liquidity is staying on exchanges and no one's actually 1:35:55 using any of these fucking things. So I don't know how interesting it would be, but if in 1:36:00 a world where actually people care about the tech and people started using these things, 1:36:06 then it can get more interesting, but I just don't think anyone cares about anything. 1:36:11 There's another good thing about having many different L2s is that they do kind of share 1:36:16 liquidity to some extent. To some extent, they split liquidity, but like to some extent, 1:36:19 like if the only exchange that's supported is one of the Thunder scaling L2s, but none 1:36:26 of the other L2s are supported, that's not so bad because you then onboard people that 1:36:33 way and then they just use the software to move among the L2s. So it's kind of like you 1:36:38 just need to sneak one across the line. I think that's also another reason why USDT 1:36:42 is actually really good because it's like, okay, maybe people don't, you know, maybe 1:36:48 it's hard to operate an exchange, but maybe it's easier to just say, okay, listen, we'll 1:36:52 have a fully regulated KYC thing where you swap a hundred dollars for a hundred USDT. 1:36:58 But then once you're in the USDT world, now that's it. You can now do cryptographic swaps 1:37:03 and now you've escaped into cyberspace. And so I think that is also, all this stuff is very good. 1:37:08 That's all the more reason to have USDT on Bitcoin or on eCash in this case. 1:37:16 Pumpamentals need work, but I think we could do something with it. I think we could definitely 1:37:20 do something. But that's part of the BitAssets is you have the pumpamentals where you just say 1:37:23 anyone who wants to issue whatever Mr. Hoddle coin, you just do that over there and then you 1:37:29 have your like pump fun. And then, you know, to appease the people who hate all this thing, 1:37:33 you just remind them that, hey, this is all sequestered. This is all trapped in, 1:37:39 this is all trapped in its own L2. And if you don't, you know, this isn't on L1 anymore and 1:37:43 this is not any of the other L2s. I mean, it doesn't even matter. It's on eCash. It's not 1:37:48 on Bitcoin. So like, even if it's on L1, who gives a shit? It's on a whole different chain. 1:37:52 Yeah. Well, you might think that the same problems that people raised in BTC would 1:37:58 eventually come to any other coin that grew. Nah, I don't think so. I think there's a really 1:38:03 specific reason why people try to keep Bitcoin as small as possible, as nimble as possible. 1:38:08 I don't think it really matters for other altcoins. I mean, maybe, but I don't think any 1:38:16 other altcoin community is talking about keeping the blockchain as small and as efficient as 1:38:23 possible. I don't think anyone's talking about that. Yeah, that's why I thought it would be 1:38:27 cool to shrink the block size and say, oh, look how different we are. Like Bitcoin Cash expanded it, 1:38:31 Bitcoin SV expanded it, but no one seems to really have cared about us shrinking it. So I don't, maybe 1:38:36 they just don't care either way, or maybe they don't believe us or something. Also, it's kind of 1:38:40 the reason I was for, the reason I was for shrinking it was because we had a bunch of people that were 1:38:44 trying to get fucking gigabyte blocks. So I'm like, whoa, these people are going one way. I'm just 1:38:49 going to go extreme the other way. And Luke was like, yeah, 300 kilobytes. That's the one. 1:38:55 I'm like, all right, fuck yeah, 300 kilobytes. But that's not because I wanted it, it's just because 1:38:59 if we have an entire group that are trying to fucking raise the block size limit, 1:39:03 I felt like it was good to have an entire group that wanted to lower the block size limit, 1:39:07 just to even it out, you know? So you didn't actually have an opinion? I didn't really 1:39:12 care. No, not one megabyte's fine. I didn't really give a shit. I mean, I knew like 1:39:20 so I knew that Sega was a block size increase, but all the fucking big block hard forkers were like, no, it's just making it more efficient, blah, blah, blah, blah. 1:39:30 I'm like, no, no, no, it's a block size increase. That's what it is. So then I'm like, all right, I guess we're fucking compromising on four megabytes. 1:39:36 So that's the fucking compromise. So that's where it's stuck. But I really didn't care. I thought one megabyte was fine. 1:39:44 Once we had the witness discount, I was like, fuck it, four megabytes, I guess it's fine. But I really was like, we needed to even out the playing field. 1:39:53 Like we have an entire group like fucking Gavin wanted, like, what was it? He wanted like 30 megabyte block size limit. I remember Adam back wanted to raise it from two, four, six, and then eight, like every three or four years or something. 1:40:07 I mean, everyone's wanting to raise the block size, like, whoa, we need to, we need to, we need to slow down with this. And then when I talked to Matt, Greg Maxwell, and he was like, can't raise the block size like that. 1:40:19 That's crazy. And then I was like, yeah, that's fucking crazy. And then Satoshi was talking about how, you know, users are going to become tyrannical and wanted to lower the block size limit so they could run Bitcoin on nodes. 1:40:30 So then I was like, yeah, okay, this is my camp right here. But I really didn't care. That was more just a posturing thing. 1:40:36 Well, people have made the argument that says, hey, if you actually have scaling in layers, and your layers actually do meet whatever need, you know, you want, for whichever number of people, 8 billion people, or just whatever, whatever number of people, then actually L1 is like, each block is like 2000 transactions and change. 1:40:58 So that's 10 minutes 2000. So every 24 hours, it's like 144 blocks. So actually, that's kind of overkill. For people to just settle among, like, you can kind of look at the ratio of how many when you make a normal transaction with the debit card, if you have, like, if you're in America, and you're like Wells Fargo, and someone else's that chase, like how many of them are within the bank, and then how many of them are across banks, using the Fed or using Clearinghouse? 1:41:24 And then you could say, how many of them are within the United States, like within the US Federal Reserve System versus within the euro system versus how many are across, you know, how many have to settle using the Bank of International Settlements or whatever. So it's like, you know, 10,000 to one or like 100,000 to one or something. So it's kind of like, okay, actually, you don't need that many to settle. Right. 1:41:48 So some people have said, actually, the block site, the L1 block size is way too big, because you skip the right ways to scale in layers, and then just settle among the layers with L1. Although, paradoxically, people have said this, the opposite thing, when they talk about unilateral exit, I don't know if they mean to say this or not. But when they talk about unilateral exit, they're saying, basically, that they want everyone to be able to leave at least one of the L2s and end up on L1. 1:42:16 But that's not possible unless L1 is very big. So that whole criterion doesn't really make any sense. But I think if you want to live on the L2s, which is exactly what I think, exactly how I think it should work, and how it will work, then actually, the L1 doesn't need that much. It doesn't need 2500 transactions every 10 minutes. 1:42:35 No, but it needs demand. It needs the value to go up. It needs security, right? It needs hash power. It needs actual demand of the token, of the Layer 1 token. Because if that Layer 1 token doesn't have demand, then you're going to have a problem with security of everything else. 1:42:50 Yeah, as you know, part of the design is to emphasize merge mining as just this unlimited source of mining revenues, so that more and more and more mining revenues over time. And that perfectly solves security. 1:43:08 I forgot about the merge mining. So basically, you need Bitcoin to be in demand at that point. 1:43:14 No, because the L2s are merge mined with the eCash L1. So in the BIP300 world, they would be merge mined with Bitcoin L1. But in the eCash world, so the Wicked asked this earlier about... 1:43:26 So wait, how is it? Oh, wait a minute. That's right. You're doing SHA-256. You're keeping SHA-256. You're not merge mining with Bitcoin. Why don't you just merge mining with Bitcoin then? Why don't you just merge mine eCash with Bitcoin? 1:43:39 Well, because that would make it so that the new eCash could never survive without... 1:43:49 Exactly. If you see there's an actual market that people are actually using this shit and are interested, you could just hard fork again and split away from Bitcoin. 1:44:02 To get bootstrapped, you just merge mine with Bitcoin, bootstrap the network, get everything going, get your L2s going, and then hard fork away from Bitcoin later. 1:44:12 I don't think it actually helps very much. Because if you think about it, if you merge mine... merge mining is when all the chains are kind of cooperating. So then it's good. But if they're competitors, then you have one coin... 1:44:29 Let's just say that the total value... What's the total value of the BTC block reward? We have to just guess, but it would be something like whatever, three Bitcoin plus a little bit more plus some time multiplied by 70,000 or something. So let's just call it whatever, like 200. Let's just call it $250,000. 1:44:47 So that's the value of every BTC block every 10 minutes. 1:44:51 Now, even if it's merge mined, then the eCash L1, if it were merge mined with BTC, it would have 100% or some high percent, 80% of the hash rate, because you can check the cool BitMEX research and some cool articles. RIP, pour one out for BitMEX research that is going away, but they have a great merge mining article. 1:45:14 So the point is, let's just say they have 100%, but still, you're only contributing... Maybe that's only... Let's say if it's 1% of the value, then if the prices are 1%, you know what I'm trying to say, like BTC is $100k to $1,000, then that would only be... Instead of $250,000, that would only be $2,500. 1:45:38 So you still don't get a lot of loyalty from the miners. You know what I mean? You get some, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they really want to keep you around. 1:45:52 Yeah, but cool. I mean, if you go... Why don't you go to a pool and see if... Because not all pools mine Namecoin, right? I think there's a few of them that will distribute Namecoin. 1:46:07 Well, really, it's a very, very high percent. You can check the BitMEX research. And it's even though there was a time, like a story I used to tell often, even I would tell the story in 2014 and 2015, back in those years, I would say, well, listen, at that time, the value of Bitcoin block was like $5,000, $6,000. But the value of the entire Namecoin block was literally like $5. So it was like 1,000th. 1:46:33 Yeah, it was nothing. 1:46:35 But still, it had like 80% merge mining. And I don't know, I think that may have just been people wanting... 1:46:42 Yeah, I think because people thought there was potential there. I thought there was fucking potential with Namecoin. I thought it was genius. 1:46:48 Yeah, me too. So do I. I think it's great. 1:46:50 I thought there was... And I actually went to the pools that I made sure to get my fucking Namecoin when I was mining Bitcoin. I went out of my way to make sure I had a Namecoin wallet and everything. So yeah, even though there wasn't much of a reward there, I think people thought that there was going to be potential there. And why waste? I mean, if you're already going to mine Bitcoin, why not also get Namecoin? 1:47:14 The reason I would think merge mining with eCash would make sense is because now you don't have to fucking guess on the difficulty. And you don't have to guess on it. You could see how the market, people are interested in it. And if people are interested in it, now you can kind of feel where you would set the difficulty at a certain later time when you split away. 1:47:36 Well, that does help. I mean, the plan for that is just to have the test runs and see where that difficulty lands and try to have fork futures to see what the eventual price will be to see where that lands. But I think what I was trying to say is that it doesn't ultimately help you that much because think about it. If the miners, they decide that they don't want to support it anymore because it's only 10 cents and then Bitcoin is $250,000, then they could still drop you. 1:48:04 And at that point, you're stuck with like a super high. But it is cool. Vanilla merge mining is kind of neat because the way Namecoin works is that it could still, you can either mine Namecoin without using the merge mining or you can use it from anything that is Bitcoin shaped. 1:48:21 So there was a time in 2017 where the difficulties were oscillating between Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash. And actually Namecoin was skimming the cream off of. So when one was higher than the other, it would merge mine using those blocks. And then when the difficulty switch and the miners switch to Bitcoin Cash, those were also Namecoin blocks. 1:48:43 So Namecoin actually had the highest hash rate for a period of time in 2017 as a result of the vanilla merge mining, which is funny. But you see, this just goes to show you that the hash rate to some extent, it helps like that would really, really help if some random person like some random crazy billionaire wanted to attack Namecoin. 1:49:04 So that helps, but it doesn't actually help. It's, you know, it's kind of like you get foundry, but you only get like, 0.5% of their mind, their brain, their mind share, their attention. So it's kind of like then if you lose them, it's not. So I thought it would be better to just have a clean break, because the hard fork, you want it to have like its own fate, I think, actually, you don't want it to really be tied. You want them to be like alternatives, I think. 1:49:34 That's just my opinion. But I think there are a lot of me like they were, there was a point where there was a lot of SHA-256 coins at one point. And eventually, they, most of them all started to merge mine with Bitcoin. But today, I don't think any of them do anymore. Because I remember Mazda coins, you remember MazaCoin that like, Indian tribe coin. 1:49:57 They were SHA-256. And then eventually, like, you know, it wasn't profitable. And they ended up merge mining with Bitcoin. But I don't, I think it only lasts for like a few months, and then miners kind of just drop them. But that all SHA-256 coins were merge mining with Bitcoin at some point until they ended up getting dropped. 1:50:18 Um, but they didn't start out merge mining, right? They were they started out on their own, but kind of like doge, like doge started out on its own. And then emerge mine with Litecoin. 1:50:29 I think merge mining with BTC makes perfect sense when when Namecoin was invented, because the idea was that Namecoin would be a separate blockchain that had a separate purpose that was doing this bit DNS name thing. And it wouldn't interfere with BTC. And so the two would cooperate. But I think that's actually bad. Like, it's kind of like what if you were saying, like, you're going to have Walmart compete with Sears, you're going to have Amazon compete with Walmart. 1:50:59 And you want like, you want them to have some kind of like, cooperative relationship. I think that is actually not a good idea. You know, that's just not healthy. It would be like, you know, what if you should the Republican Party merge mine with the Democratic Party? I think that's actually not good. 1:51:14 No, maybe not. But maybe like to bootstrap a new party, you would merge mine and then and then you go on your own way after that. And then anti merge mine. Yeah. And then anti merge. Like, you know, you build up the brand, you build up the all of it, and then you go on your way you because like, it's really, I think it's just really, really hard to fucking bootstrap from from Genesis these days. Like, you know, in 2016, when shit coins are popular 2017 2018. Yeah, but I don't think that's a good idea. 1:51:44 I think bootstrapping from Genesis today is going to be a way more difficult. But maybe I'm wrong. 1:51:51 No, I do think it will be difficult. But I think it's kind of like, all the stuff that would make it hard on day one would then apply also to like the day at which you shut off the merge mining that you were sort of relying on. So I kind of think it, it just like kicks the can down the road. 1:52:08 Yeah, but you would yeah, but you kind of get the feeling of like, like something you would see, like, what the price of the tokens are like, the layer twos, if there's actual demand on these layer twos, like, yeah, you would see it before 1:52:23 we do the stage, we're doing the stage launch. It's also because like, there was so much just cultural chaos in Bitcoin that was like, you know, it's like overwhelming with Coldcard and with all this other stuff. So it's like, okay, ramp it up a little bit. 1:52:38 And you postponed it, right? It's no longer in August. Now, it's in October, you do get in August, you still get basically the same thing. But it's like officially in October. So in August, you still get the alpha release, basically, that's what we call it now. So I think it would have been fine to do it in August. But it was just like, there was just so much. See, the funny thing is, I was, you know, I like many of you here, I thought 110 was a complete nothing, anything. And I thought they would get like, no attention. 1:53:22 And then I was thinking we want to give people like four months is probably enough time to 1:53:26 have people think about it. 1:53:28 So that was like, I didn't even think at all about it being like so close to this BIP-110 1:53:33 thing or whatever, I was more in favor of like trying to let people have a long time 1:53:38 to think about it. 1:53:39 Did you point Kimi? 1:53:40 Did you point Kimi at eCash? 1:53:43 We have an ongoing bug bounty contest where you can win first, second, or third place. 1:53:50 And certainly those people are doing lots of AI stuff. 1:53:53 So yeah, I think Portland's well aware of the bug bounty. 1:53:56 So I think he's been pointing Kimi at eCash to scoop up some of those rewards. 1:54:03 Also partly, you know, that has also gone because we've done stuff like that before. 1:54:09 And people are now like the amount of just raw bug finding firepower is very high. 1:54:17 And you can see that many, a lot of things have been closing down some temporarily, but 1:54:22 you can see a lot of Bitcoin projects have said that. 1:54:26 I think this is probably one of the worst times to launch any software project, let 1:54:31 alone a crypto project. 1:54:33 You definitely picked a good time to do it. 1:54:36 Yeah. 1:54:37 So I think, you know, slowing it down is it's disappointing for me because I was thinking 1:54:43 we said this date. 1:54:44 So it's a matter of integrity to some extent. 1:54:47 People think it'll be delayed forever. 1:54:49 But you know, I think just slower is kind of better for something. 1:54:55 And this has a lot of advantages to rolling it out in stages. 1:54:58 So this is cool. 1:54:59 You can practice with this one that you can practice again with September and then everyone 1:55:03 can have all their stuff totally ready to go for end of October. 1:55:09 I think that that should be more fun for everyone. 1:55:13 All right. 1:55:14 I'm going to bed. 1:55:15 I'm going to bed too. 1:55:16 Good night. 1:55:17 Peace. 1:55:18 Hey, thanks a lot. 1:55:19 Thanks for coming up. 1:55:20 See you guys. 1:55:21 See ya. 1:55:22 Talk to you later, Paul.
