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Hello, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the CoinGeek weekly live stream.

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I am your host, Mr. Kurt Walker Jr.

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We are rocking live from sunny South Florida, produced entirely in the state of
Florida,

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which is why this show never, ever, ever misses a live stream.

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We can't be killed, I don't think.

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But our guest today, as long as you like, subscribe, hit the alert bell, all of that
stuff,

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let our digital overlords know that you wish to consume the content,

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our guest today is going to be Paul Sztorc,

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who is one of the longest term people that's been trying to get a BIP pushed in
Bitcoin Core.

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So he is sympathetic and empathetic to many of the plights of trying to navigate the
BTC ecosystem and the broader Bitcoin ecosystem as well.

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He is quite an interesting guy, always been friendly to talk.

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He's always been happy to hop on a good debate.

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And we kind of coordinated this over the last four or five days to talk about
BIP300,

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Drivechains, sidechains in general, and then comparing that to L1 unbounded scaling,
essentially the BSV model.

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So I expect to have a little bit of disagreement, but ultimately, you know,

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two guys who don't hate each other and aren't going to need to be super toxic in
order to get a point across.

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So it should be a good time.

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Please fill the troll box here with questions, not trolling,

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but we will take good questions as long as they're relevant to the topic.

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And if they push the conversation forward, and by all means, feel free to just chit
chat and argue with each other in there.

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If that happens, we'll ignore you and you can have fun the way most of you like to
have fun every week anyways.

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So it'll be a good time.

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I would like to thank our sponsors, Otherworldly TCG,

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the game that sends out a prize pack to one person every single week here on the
Quinky Quinkly livestream.

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Check out Otherworldly TCG and also RockWallet.

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the only one that does not require you to use gas.

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So good times, everybody.

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Check out RockWallet and check out Otherworldly TCG.

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I have a feeling this episode is going to go long,

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so everybody, you may want to go for a little bathroom break while we run the
RockWallet ad.

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We are going to start quickly here and get right into it.

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And yeah, so that's where we're at.

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Mr. Producer, let's roll the ad.

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We'll be right back.

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We'll be right back.

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Hey, Paul, welcome to the show.

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Oh, hey, thanks for having me.

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For sure.

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Good to have you.

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I've seen you a couple of times say that you don't like to do introductions.

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So yeah, I don't know if I was right about that because, you know, people need to
know who the person is.

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But I do think whenever I play a YouTube video, I always skip like way into it
because I'm like,

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I don't want to hear all this.

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I just want to hear what the person has to say.

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I do the same.

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I'll decide if they're really an economist at the World Bank or not, you know.

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They say that, but that could just mean anything.

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If we could get the 30-second version of who you are and why you're here,

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I think it would help the people who don't know you.

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But I know about half my audience is going to know you anyways because they've been
bickering with you on the Internet.

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I have been involved with Bitcoin for a while.

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I heard about it a long time ago.

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And I've also been involved with this whole sidechain thing for a while.

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I published this Drivechain idea back on Bitcoin Talk like in 2014 and then this
post in 2015.

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And so I've been basically a member of the BTC community the whole time.

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And I'm a skeptic of large blocks on L1, but I'm open-minded to large blocks on L2.

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And this makes me – I get it from all sides.

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Peter Todd mistakenly thinks that my project is like an L1 unlimited block size
increase.

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So that's kind of funny.

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And then you get people from Bitcoin SV who are like, oh, I don't like it because I
don't want to leave L1.

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And it's like, well, if you're on L1 and L2 at the same time, it's like the same
thing.

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So, yeah, I'm also the author of these two BIPs, 300 and 301, which enable this L2
blockchain idea called Drivechain.

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And I've been around.

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I think I was speaking at the Bitcoin conference in Las Vegas.

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And I think I've spoken at every single Bitcoin magazine conference.

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I'm just like kind of a humble researcher guy.

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And I have my little blog and I post my little technical commentary.

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For sure. And it's good stuff.

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I've read you on and off over the years.

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The Truthcoin blog is – it's good information.

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I actually – I don't disagree on premise with the idea of sidechains.

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I think sidechains are a useful tool.

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And I don't know why small blockers have a tendency to really, really hate them.

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I think it's sort of a utility compromise they don't want to make.

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So I think it's a little more philosophical for them.

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But ultimately –

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We can talk about that because I do know a lot about the dysfunction of the BTC
community.

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But then the question is why pick a community, one community over another.

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Sure.

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So to that, let's actually start with – let's talk a little bit about the BIP
process.

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And what does BIP300/301 – what are you actually asking for?

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What is being proposed in those?

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Is it a big change?

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What's being added to make that work?

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The irony is almost all the people who have the loudest –

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I think there's a saying in Polish that the weakest dogs bark the loudest.

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The people who have an opinion really haven't read it.

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If you do read it, you see it's very tame.

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BIP300 is basically just asking for an opcode that is not being used,

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to instead be used to count to 13,000 over and over again.

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But it's very simple gear on L1, but it enables – in my opinion,

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it enables this big ecosystem of other things on L2.

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So if you read the BIP, you see it's not really asking for very much.

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All of these BIPs, all the soft forks that people have considered are,

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in my view, harmless because they're all opt-in and reversible.

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When Satoshi added the opnops, he has a commit where he adds the opnops

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in the first place.

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They're clearly intended to be repurposed later as they were done before.

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Absolutely.

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This is exactly why they were put in so that they're blank and anyone can spend,

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and then you can tighten the rules whenever that opcode is selected.

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And then it was well-known that there are only like 10 or so,

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but if you can take the last one and then put two bytes after that,

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you get 100 more.

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So you have an infinite number really.

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So this whole thing was clearly intended from the beginning,

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and it was used this way at first.

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The BIP process is completely broken down in my view.

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There used to be a real process, but now it is sort of a fake sham process,

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I think.

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It's actually bubbling up again just in the last 24 hours.

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It seems like somebody got their commit access revoked.

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It's got something to do with Jameson Lopp,

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and he's funded to break this thing so he can fix it over here,

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and they're all bickering, and there's a lot of butthurt at court.

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There is a lot of bickering.

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But one fact that I point out a lot,

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and I have a slide that I often use for this,

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is that you can look at the number of hard and soft forks over time,

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specifically the number of soft forks.

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There used to be an average of one every six months,

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even though the rate has declined enormously.

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It has slowed down.

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In 2009, 2010, 2011, there were a lot, like around 10 or so.

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And then even in late 2015, there were three, like in December,

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around the time of scaling two.

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And then we entered a long period where basically since 2016,

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the only two have been SegWit and Taproot.

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And SegWit took 26, I think.

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I can't remember if I'm remembering it exactly right,

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but I think it was 26 months from when it was first proposed

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and then coded and activated, and then Taproot was 40 months.

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January 2018, it was.

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So it's been slowing down more and more,

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and a lot of people believe that there will be a useful soft fork,

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like right around the corner.

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But there is, you know, like you could make the case

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that there will never be another soft fork.

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If you just look at the graph,

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if you just look at like what does it mean that people argue.

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So the BIP process, it includes these soft fork things,

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but it also includes kind of other things.

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Like there's things like BIP39 that are not even implemented in Bitcoin Core,

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even though they're implemented like literally everywhere else.

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Everywhere, yeah.

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But like the Bitcoin Core wallet has kind of like,

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it went through like various weird stages,

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and now there's this other project, BDK, that is, I think, much more popular.

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But that obviously uses BIP39.

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Then you have Samurai, which uses the BIP42 to make Bitcoin transactions,

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but BIP42 has this like Luke Dashjr. stamp on it

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of like unanimously discouraged for implementation.

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It's like not supported officially, but Samurai actually does use it.

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So the whole thing is a bit.

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So what's your take?

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You know, I mean, just describing this,

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like we're already talking about a lot of malaise in Bitcoin Core.

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And I've been an advocate for a long time of opening up things,

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basically eliminating them from consensus,

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moving as many things as possible to like node policy settings,

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and then let it be a general purpose system

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where everybody can compete without like breaking the network.

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And it's sort of the set in stone ethos,

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or other people will call it ossification

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if they want to sound impressive to the rest of Twitter.

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But what is your take on basically opening up parameters

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and setting it in stone, letting it be a competitive system

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where lots of people are competing as opposed to,

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okay, we have to fight about it in the core GitHub,

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you know, private chat in order to make a change.

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Is that possible?

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Or what do you think?

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Yeah, competition is the one true God, so to speak.

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So it fixes everything.

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Competition means that if anyone makes a mistake,

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you're sort of happy about it.

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You think, oh, their mistake,

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I'm going to now open my own restaurant or whatever,

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and I'm going to sell pizza, Asian fusion or whatever,

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you think it's a great neglected topic.

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So yeah, more competition is always good.

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And it is the biggest flaw in Bitcoin Core

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that it's very difficult to compete with.

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People have their other implementations.

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Luke has Bitcoin knots and et cetera,

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and there is the JavaScript node.

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There's kind of like these different things,

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but they have to all be on the same consensus network,

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so they have to process the same blocks,

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so they have to enforce the same rules.

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The Drivechain idea is an attempt to get away from that,

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where you can have a completely different piece of software

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that's basically sort of like an altcoin,

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but it's sending and receiving the BTC.

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So I'm pro competition.

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And I do interpret sort of Bitcoin Core's reluctance

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to enthusiastically back it as a kind of guild,

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cult, insularity thing, where they think,

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we don't know, and there's a corrupt version

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and a virtuous version,

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which would be like the corrupt version

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is they get a lot of prestige and they have this job,

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but there's no oversight and there's no one really

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who can compete with them or even criticize them.

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And then the second interpretation would be like,

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they don't know, what am I going to be responsible for?

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Am I going to be responsible for this endless list of stuff

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if we open this Pandora's box?

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That makes sense.

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And I do think it's a little bit,

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I actually really like the religious analogies

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as it applies to software development in general,

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because I think there is a bit of a mystery

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from the average person as to like,

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man, how do people conjure stuff up in code?

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And if you don't know how to program,

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it's a little bit like a talented author

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can create a character that feels very real.

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But it's just a specific skillset.

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But in software,

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it's got this sort of creator created thing.

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And then there does sort of become

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a religious hierarchy to it,

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which has been my main problem.

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The reason that I think there are forks

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or derivations of Bitcoin in the first place

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is specifically because, well, I don't like you.

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I don't like your ideas.

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I don't like this governance model.

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I don't like the directions.

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It's going, you know, whatever,

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whatever those reasons are.

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And from my experience,

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I see like existing in the BSV spaces.

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I just kind of kept saying no

239
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,000
to changes that were moving away from Bitcoin.

240
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,000
And then I really wanted to roll back

241
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:19,000
and get back to things that are Bitcoin,

242
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,000
turning back on various op codes

243
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,000
or opening up op codes

244
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,000
and then turning off things like pay to script hash,

245
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,000
which I think was, I don't know,

246
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,000
it's one of the first five or six BIPs

247
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:30,000
or something anyways, right?

248
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:31,000
Where-

249
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:32,000
In 2013, I believe.

250
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:33,000
It was early.

251
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,000
And it was one of the first major things

252
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,000
that had a little bit of debate around it and stuff.

253
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:44,000
But do you think there's a way to,

254
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,000
oh, it's reading my thumbs up here.

255
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,000
Thank you, AI or whatever.

256
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,000
If you make a thumbs up, it will do that?

257
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,000
It did on my end.

258
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:54,000
I wasn't even expecting it.

259
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:55,000
Oh yeah.

260
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:56,000
Super weird.

261
00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:57,000
It's always watching, you know?

262
00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:58,000
Yeah.

263
00:14:58,000 --> 00:14:59,000
So that's comforting.

264
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,000
The great eye sees all.

265
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:02,000
Yeah.

266
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,000
So that kind of lost my train of thought, but-

267
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,000
We're talking about 2013 pay to script hash.

268
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,000
So getting into those kinds of changes,

269
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:15,000
like do you think there is a generalist version of Bitcoin?

270
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,000
And this I think can sort of transition us

271
00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:20,000
into debating about what is Bitcoin

272
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,000
and sort of the small block versus big block ethos.

273
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,000
But do you think there is a version of Bitcoin

274
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,000
that you could objectively say like,

275
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,000
okay, this is actually what the system was designed

276
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:31,000
to look like.

277
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,000
And if that's possible, is that a good thing?

278
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,000
Or is it just, is that its own weird religious decision?

279
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,000
I think it might be its own weird religious thing.

280
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,000
No matter what, we want to judge an idea

281
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,000
based on its content, right?

282
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,000
Everything else would just be like an ad hominem of the idea.

283
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:52,000
So you could say like, hypothetically,

284
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:58,000
you could say this idea more matches a sacred document

285
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:03,000
in the past or more matches expectations in the past.

286
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,000
But the important thing is whether or not the idea

287
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,000
meets the criteria for whatever we want to use it for.

288
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,000
And in my point of view is that we want to have,

289
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,000
I personally believe that we want 8 billion people

290
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:16,000
to use Bitcoin.

291
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:20,000
And I think that every computer system

292
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:21,000
has strong network effects.

293
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,000
But in the cryptocurrency case specifically,

294
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,000
I think the network effects are maybe as strong

295
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,000
as they could possibly be.

296
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,000
Because it's just so humiliating.

297
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,000
Like even if you have money and you go to like another country,

298
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,000
you go to Japan or something and you just,

299
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,000
you try to exchange a certain amount of yen or something,

300
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,000
but you start to run out of yen.

301
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,000
And maybe you have $100 bill, American, in your pocket,

302
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,000
or you have whatever, Mexican currency.

303
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,000
But you feel, you can begin to feel emotionally like,

304
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,000
oh, like I don't have any more money.

305
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,000
Like I'm poor now.

306
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:54,000
Like I don't have any yen.

307
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,000
I need yen.

308
00:16:55,000 --> 00:17:00,000
So when you, you're not on the same monetary network

309
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:05,000
as someone else, it doesn't feel good, you know?

310
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,000
You could say, oh, you take someone out on a date.

311
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,000
Oh, I can pay with a Confederate bucks or something, you know?

312
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,000
Like it's like, it's sort of humiliating.

313
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,000
And so I think that you always be vulnerable.

314
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,000
One of them, if one of them gets to 8 billion users and you don't,

315
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,000
then the rest will go to zero.

316
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,000
And of course I don't literally mean to zero.

317
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,000
They always have some like beanie baby novelty collected.

318
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,000
And that's not literally what I mean, but I mean like, yeah,

319
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:33,000
we're talking like $300 trillion market cap versus like something

320
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,000
that is collectible, a part of internet history or something.

321
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,000
That's a completely different thing.

322
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:39,000
That's zero to me.

323
00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:46,000
So that's my view is that getting to 8 billion happy users in the long run,

324
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,000
that is the criterion.

325
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:54,000
And that's why that's the criterion because it's the criterion for survival.

326
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,000
So to that, and I agree.

327
00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,000
I don't think you're wrong.

328
00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:04,000
My concern is that a big part of this is philosophically based.

329
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,000
It's a sound money system, or at least it's attempting to mimic one.

330
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,000
So I've always seen it as, you know,

331
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:14,000
the basic properties of gold mixed with your basic properties of, you know,

332
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,000
what if internet packets could be sent with little pieces of gold?

333
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,000
If that was possible 30 years ago, I think they would have done it.

334
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:21,000
Like, okay,

335
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,000
I'll just attach a little bit of gold to my internet packets and send my

336
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,000
email with a little bit of internet money.

337
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,000
And like these kinds of concepts.

338
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,000
Amazon.com would have been on top of that, right?

339
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:30,000
Exactly.

340
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:31,000
If anything.

341
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:32,000
Yes.

342
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,000
And so, you know, I look at that and I say, okay,

343
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:38,000
I think it's very clear that Satoshi Nakamoto was a sound money guy.

344
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,000
I don't think he was as hardline, you know,

345
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:44,000
zealous as a lot of people are today or even as zealous as they think he was.

346
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,000
But I think it was clearly something that was on his mind.

347
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,000
He clearly understood that these basic premises of sound money.

348
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,000
And for that reason,

349
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,000
I've always said that a sound money really shouldn't change.

350
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:56,000
It's, you know,

351
00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:00,000
just like the consensus of science can't decide to change gold.

352
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,000
You can maybe relabel it and tell everybody else to relabel it and have the

353
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,000
government say, okay, gold is this thing now.

354
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:11,000
But ultimately the thing that we understand as gold now atomically is gold,

355
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:12,000
whether we like it or not.

356
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:17,000
And I think Bitcoin should be that way because if it changes,

357
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,000
and I think every one of these bips and, you know,

358
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:20,000
even right now,

359
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,000
the thing that's being debated right now is showing, all right,

360
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,000
it's not really a sound money.

361
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,000
It's actually a political money.

362
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,000
And it's a sort of fiat of an oligarchy.

363
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,000
That oligarchy might be a pretty broad group of people,

364
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,000
but it's still a group of people that intend to change it to be something.

365
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:38,000
And in that sense,

366
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,000
it is a fiat currency of that oligarchy.

367
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,000
And I think that's a major part.

368
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,000
I think that's a deep fundamental problem.

369
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,000
And I'm curious for your feedback on that.

370
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,000
Well,

371
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,000
it's a very interesting line of thought.

372
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:53,000
And we went,

373
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:54,000
we went like we skipped,

374
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,000
it's like throwing a stone.

375
00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,000
We skipped from like gold atoms to like oligarchy.

376
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:01,000
And that was,

377
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:05,000
but I think that there is an enormous tension between the,

378
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,000
the gold metaphor.

379
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,000
Satoshi used the gold metaphor.

380
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:10,000
And I think he also,

381
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,000
he seemed to be like a property rights,

382
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,000
libertarian type person,

383
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,000
at least at the time.

384
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,000
And he was saying stuff like it's very attractive to the libertarian

385
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:20,000
community,

386
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:21,000
if we can explain it that way.

387
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,000
So there is the,

388
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,000
the gold bug people.

389
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:26,000
It's of course,

390
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,000
it's quite ironic that a lot of the gold bug people and the Austrian

391
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,000
economists at first hated Bitcoin for a very long time.

392
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:32,000
And many still do.

393
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,000
And Peter Schiff is still like,

394
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:35,000
it's slow.

395
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:36,000
It's going to come around.

396
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:37,000
He didn't change.

397
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,000
So,

398
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:43,000
but there's enormous tension between the gold metaphor and the fact that

399
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:48,000
Bitcoin is a piece of software and the software angle is,

400
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,000
it's just part of Bitcoin's nature.

401
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,000
And I do think this is a world's collide moment.

402
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,000
Like it's almost like its own category,

403
00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:00,000
sui generis or something where you have all these people who say,

404
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:01,000
I want to actually,

405
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,000
if this thing is already intangible,

406
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:04,000
it's already like,

407
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:05,000
it doesn't physically exist.

408
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,000
So if I can't have some certainty that I really own something,

409
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:10,000
then what do I really have?

410
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,000
I really have nothing.

411
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,000
This is the anti ossification people say,

412
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,000
I was the anti hard fork people also say like,

413
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,000
this is going to change all the time.

414
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,000
And I don't know what I'm getting into on day one.

415
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,000
It's kind of also the small blocker people,

416
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:23,000
because they say,

417
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,000
I don't know how long I'm running a node now,

418
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,000
but the node costs can increase forever.

419
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:29,000
So,

420
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,000
but there's tension on that side.

421
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,000
And then the reality of software development is there are bugs.

422
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,000
There are CVS that are fixed securely.

423
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,000
There is like stuff like heart bleed,

424
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,000
where something that a tiny component,

425
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,000
like when you build a house from scratch,

426
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,000
you're not building the two by fours and the screws from scratch.

427
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:48,000
You know what I mean?

428
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,000
No one builds anything from scratch.

429
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:51,000
It's like not possible.

430
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:52,000
Even if you're a farmer,

431
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:53,000
you get the fertilizer,

432
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,000
you get the seeds from someone or something.

433
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,000
So we don't live in a world.

434
00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,000
Thankfully,

435
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,000
we live in a very wealthy world where you can get screws,

436
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:02,000
you know,

437
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,000
from Home Depot when you build a house from scratch,

438
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,000
you're not building the screws like that's absurd.

439
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,000
So heart bleed is like,

440
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:13,000
there's a component of cryptography that like a lot of people were using

441
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:14,000
that was flawed.

442
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:15,000
So,

443
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,000
and there's of course the endless march of science.

444
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,000
There is the,

445
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:20,000
you know,

446
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,000
new operating systems come out like the whole world is changing.

447
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:27,000
Like there was a time when people only had a desktop.

448
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,000
It was a time when people only had a mainframe computer,

449
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,000
a terminal that went to the mainframe.

450
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,000
Then people had desktop computer.

451
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,000
Now people have a phone,

452
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,000
more likely to have a phone than a computer.

453
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:39,000
So all this,

454
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,000
this dynamic world of technology is changing a lot.

455
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:44,000
Software world changed a lot.

456
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,000
Bitcoin was originally on SourceForge back in the day.

457
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,000
SourceForge was the big thing.

458
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,000
Now it's on GitHub.

459
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:52,000
So,

460
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,000
and that was before Microsoft bought GitHub,

461
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,000
then Microsoft bought GitHub and people thought we'll have to move somewhere

462
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:58,000
else.

463
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,000
But then it ended up being okay to stay at GitHub.

464
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:05,000
So the fact that Bitcoin is a piece of software in entails all this,

465
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,000
this,

466
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,000
this,

467
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:13,000
this oligarchy of people who have to fix the CVS secretly and then lie about

468
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,000
they must lie about what they're doing.

469
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:16,000
And they say,

470
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,000
this is a fix to improve matrix multiplication.

471
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,000
And then it's like smuggled in there is like,

472
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,000
Oh,

473
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,000
here's the thing that we fix.

474
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,000
Sometimes the fix actually breaks things.

475
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:31,000
Matt Corral is doing a trivial refactor to save like six millionths of a

476
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:32,000
second or something.

477
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:37,000
And that could have caused an inflation bug in any version that ran that

478
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:38,000
software,

479
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:39,000
although not the previous version.

480
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,000
So that's part of the benefit of the soft fork is you can stay on your old

481
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:46,000
version versus the hard fork where you're pressured onto a new version.

482
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,000
So you're completely right to point out that there's enormous tension between

483
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:57,000
these two ideas and people try to balance it the best that they can.

484
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,000
And I think that we don't,

485
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,000
I think bib 300 is actually the best,

486
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,000
the best balance would be the put this one thing in that lets you have more

487
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:08,000
competing L2s because then you have more creativity among people who can

488
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:12,000
compete and the L2s could even fail or they could just be not popular and

489
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:13,000
no one could use them.

490
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,000
And that would be okay.

491
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,000
Whereas, but, but, you know, it,

492
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,000
it's very difficult to say objectively where the perfect line is.

493
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:26,000
And I don't think BTC does a perfect job,

494
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,000
but that is very different from saying that that inherently dooms the project.

495
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,000
The, the,

496
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:35,000
the bigger issue with leaving BTC is that you live by the fork,

497
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,000
die by the fork.

498
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:37,000
So if you leave BTC,

499
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,000
you leave the number one coin for something else,

500
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,000
then maybe those people leave for something else.

501
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,000
This is exactly what happened with Bitcoin SV where Bitcoin cash split off.

502
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,000
And then Bitcoin SV split off Bitcoin cash.

503
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,000
And then you had even Bitcoin ABC,

504
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:49,000
which split off of BCH.

505
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,000
And then,

506
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,000
so it's a,

507
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,000
it fractures the,

508
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,000
the coalition.

509
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,000
And that is a very difficult,

510
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,000
as I mentioned with the network effects before.

511
00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,000
So for,

512
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:00,000
for what it's worth,

513
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:00,733
I think if.

514
00:25:00,733 --> 00:25:27,733
Bitcoin core and small blockers in general were reasonable people, I think accepting
BIP300 would be a wise thing because it does actually solve the utility problem in,
in a lot of ways, but, but it, but it also, I have a little more time to think at 10
years, 10 years, and I kind of like would tinker with it from time to time, as you
may know, I got a little more serious about it two years ago, I started this company
to push for it and to make it better because it is true, like, you know, I, I, I, I,
I, I, I,

515
00:25:27,733 --> 00:25:34,453
like, it was only an idea. And until you have test software out, it's kind of like a
hard for people to go for.

516
00:25:34,453 --> 00:25:37,813
Of course, I didn't stop people from going for SegWit and the lightning network back
when it was just an idea.

517
00:25:37,813 --> 00:25:38,973
I can see how that worked out.

518
00:25:38,973 --> 00:25:44,853
That's one of the things that I made my tiny little list about things that BSV
community is correct about, but actually the list is really long.

519
00:25:44,853 --> 00:25:49,173
It may be for too long, but number three was about like lightning network doesn't
work.

520
00:25:49,173 --> 00:25:50,973
And people are kind of pretending that it does.

521
00:25:51,493 --> 00:25:55,013
Well, let's, so, so let's actually let, let, let's go over that.

522
00:25:55,013 --> 00:25:59,573
Because I think like, there are things about Bitcoin core that I think are okay.

523
00:25:59,573 --> 00:26:07,813
And, and it's a funny thing because like you mentioned, like CVEs, like handling
zero day exploits and things like that, like what else would you do?

524
00:26:07,813 --> 00:26:09,173
All your options are very bad.

525
00:26:09,173 --> 00:26:12,133
Like your options are try, never change it and hope for the best.

526
00:26:12,133 --> 00:26:19,173
And then you're killed by heart bleed and then, or, you know, build up a secret cast
of people that have PGP,

527
00:26:19,173 --> 00:26:21,333
send them encrypted message and have them fix it.

528
00:26:21,333 --> 00:26:26,213
And then lie to everyone about why, oh, you should really upgrade to this because it
has better font.

529
00:26:26,213 --> 00:26:31,333
And then, well, for what it's worth, I think that's Satoshi had the alert key and
that kind of thing.

530
00:26:31,333 --> 00:26:36,293
I think Satoshi actually envisioned, like, I'm going to, I'm going to do a push
message to the real node operators.

531
00:26:36,293 --> 00:26:46,213
As you know, there were a couple of cases in 2009, 2010, where the network minted
like 92 billion coins accidentally and whatever, like release an emergency version.

532
00:26:46,533 --> 00:26:52,213
Yeah, 2013 with the Berkeley DB, like split the network.

533
00:26:52,213 --> 00:26:56,613
It was essentially a hard fork and then a rollback, I guess, to fix it.

534
00:26:56,613 --> 00:26:59,093
But they had to roll back first.

535
00:26:59,093 --> 00:27:05,093
And then the database lock limit had implicitly become something like a consensus
limit without anyone realizing.

536
00:27:05,093 --> 00:27:09,493
And then they removed that with arguably a hard fork, removing the block size.

537
00:27:09,493 --> 00:27:11,653
It's funny that that rhymes with block size limit.

538
00:27:11,653 --> 00:27:15,093
So that the jokes write themselves, but only a few people are going to get that
joke.

539
00:27:16,293 --> 00:27:20,213
In July 2015, there was the people didn't really upgrade.

540
00:27:20,213 --> 00:27:22,053
They thought they had upgraded, but they really didn't.

541
00:27:22,053 --> 00:27:24,613
And a bunch of invalid blocks were mined.

542
00:27:24,613 --> 00:27:27,253
Yeah, because everybody always checks their software.

543
00:27:27,253 --> 00:27:28,133
That's what they'll tell you.

544
00:27:29,493 --> 00:27:31,413
Part of it is that it's very opaque, right?

545
00:27:31,413 --> 00:27:35,093
So a layperson, it's extremely specialized.

546
00:27:35,093 --> 00:27:41,173
So even if you're a very good computer scientist and you're a great software
engineer, you don't know like what other people are doing on their software project.

547
00:27:41,173 --> 00:27:44,453
So it's very different from like a plumber or something putting in.

548
00:27:44,453 --> 00:27:47,973
Even that is sort of specialized where you'd say, well, I don't know, did they do it
wrong?

549
00:27:47,973 --> 00:27:50,453
Or did I tell them to do the wrong thing?

550
00:27:50,453 --> 00:27:51,973
Or did the software or did the code?

551
00:27:51,973 --> 00:27:54,133
Right, just knowing the code for a region is relevant too.

552
00:27:54,133 --> 00:27:56,693
Like I grew up in Chicago and now I live in South Florida.

553
00:27:56,693 --> 00:27:58,933
And like I've done building projects in both places.

554
00:27:58,933 --> 00:28:02,453
And it's like, oh, it's very different building on sand than it is building on clay.

555
00:28:03,013 --> 00:28:06,773
And so there's a bunch of stuff like that that you just you have to know by doing.

556
00:28:07,573 --> 00:28:08,533
So, yeah.

557
00:28:08,533 --> 00:28:14,453
So it's very hard for a layperson under any circumstance to contradict a specialist.

558
00:28:14,453 --> 00:28:18,533
And then with software, it's just very opaque.

559
00:28:18,533 --> 00:28:20,533
You don't know if people want to do this and that.

560
00:28:20,533 --> 00:28:23,813
And it's hard to say, like this was also happening today with the OpReturn.

561
00:28:25,013 --> 00:28:26,373
Peter Todd wants to remove it.

562
00:28:26,373 --> 00:28:27,813
I think that that's correct.

563
00:28:28,453 --> 00:28:30,053
But then other people are saying this.

564
00:28:30,053 --> 00:28:35,893
People are in there hyperbolically saying on GitHub, this will kill the whole
Bitcoin project and turn it into an altcoin.

565
00:28:36,213 --> 00:28:37,333
People have the same.

566
00:28:37,333 --> 00:28:37,893
Sure.

567
00:28:37,893 --> 00:28:38,693
They have the same.

568
00:28:38,693 --> 00:28:42,853
It's kind of like the reducto ad Hitlerium or whatever, where you just end up,

569
00:28:42,853 --> 00:28:45,893
every argument online ends up with someone being accused of being Hitler.

570
00:28:45,893 --> 00:28:48,693
It's kind of like, ultimately, yes, they're going to make it an altcoin.

571
00:28:48,693 --> 00:28:49,173
I've heard that.

572
00:28:49,173 --> 00:28:51,173
If only I had a nickel for every time I heard that.

573
00:28:51,173 --> 00:28:51,493
Yeah.

574
00:28:51,493 --> 00:28:54,773
Well, and the fact of the matter is, is there is some truth to it.

575
00:28:54,773 --> 00:28:57,413
Like there are core principles of Bitcoin.

576
00:28:57,413 --> 00:28:59,813
So one of the things that you've said is, you know, Bitcoin is software.

577
00:28:59,813 --> 00:29:03,493
And that always makes me wince because I look at Bitcoin and I say, well,

578
00:29:03,573 --> 00:29:07,573
Bitcoin really is an idea about rule enforcement.

579
00:29:07,573 --> 00:29:09,813
And it's implemented in software, which is.

580
00:29:10,453 --> 00:29:12,293
Yeah, it's an issue, though.

581
00:29:12,293 --> 00:29:15,173
It's like how good luck with the rules if they're not implemented anywhere.

582
00:29:15,173 --> 00:29:15,973
Well, correct.

583
00:29:15,973 --> 00:29:16,933
There's my thumb again.

584
00:29:16,933 --> 00:29:17,813
I got to turn that off.

585
00:29:19,093 --> 00:29:22,773
But, you know, I mean, when I did it, I have no idea.

586
00:29:22,773 --> 00:29:26,053
It might even be a local thing on my with my camera or something.

587
00:29:26,053 --> 00:29:31,493
But anyways, so, you know, my concern, like looking at Bitcoin and thinking of it
purely

588
00:29:31,493 --> 00:29:38,293
as as software is if it's just software, then then there is no fundamental thing
that makes

589
00:29:38,293 --> 00:29:39,333
it Bitcoin.

590
00:29:39,333 --> 00:29:41,333
And then now you're having a political conversation.

591
00:29:41,333 --> 00:29:45,093
Like, well, the supply is an abstract idea.

592
00:29:46,053 --> 00:29:48,053
Well, and what is that abstract idea?

593
00:29:48,053 --> 00:29:51,173
Is it the enforcement of, you know, just the number of coins?

594
00:29:51,173 --> 00:29:53,173
Or is it, you know, script validation?

595
00:29:53,173 --> 00:29:54,933
Do the opcodes matter?

596
00:29:54,933 --> 00:29:59,973
Like those are those are some pretty big opening conversations to fight for, you
know, 10 years

597
00:29:59,973 --> 00:30:00,853
in your circumstance.

598
00:30:00,853 --> 00:30:05,813
I mean, of course, like at the zoomed in level, the details are very specific and
they do

599
00:30:05,813 --> 00:30:06,213
matter.

600
00:30:06,213 --> 00:30:11,173
Like if that really if the software will really reject an opcode, if, you know, like
up to

601
00:30:11,173 --> 00:30:14,133
check was nothing first and then it was check locked and verify, I think.

602
00:30:15,493 --> 00:30:18,053
So if you really break that rule.

603
00:30:19,413 --> 00:30:23,653
You're a new miner block, it really will be rejected by the software.

604
00:30:23,653 --> 00:30:27,573
So that is the chicken and egg problem, I suppose, of like the principles versus the

605
00:30:27,573 --> 00:30:28,053
software.

606
00:30:28,453 --> 00:30:31,093
Yeah, I that's a very good question.

607
00:30:31,093 --> 00:30:33,493
It's like what is at the essence of Bitcoin?

608
00:30:33,493 --> 00:30:41,333
And again, I think we have no choice but to make it like whatever helps the project
survive

609
00:30:41,333 --> 00:30:41,893
and thrive.

610
00:30:42,773 --> 00:30:48,213
But I suppose someone could make an argument that says we should just be this fixed.

611
00:30:50,053 --> 00:30:55,413
Photograph of something and but I think like you're just we're just going to it will
just

612
00:30:55,413 --> 00:30:56,373
end up being replaced.

613
00:30:56,373 --> 00:31:00,133
You know, there's there are many things in technology that went by the wayside, you
know,

614
00:31:00,133 --> 00:31:02,453
the second Dreamcast or something.

615
00:31:02,453 --> 00:31:05,093
Sure, you know, where it's like, oh, it existed.

616
00:31:05,093 --> 00:31:06,613
And it's not like it's fake.

617
00:31:06,613 --> 00:31:07,173
It's real.

618
00:31:07,173 --> 00:31:08,773
But in a way, it is.

619
00:31:10,133 --> 00:31:15,733
So so that always again, it undermines, though, this ethos that Bitcoin is sound
money, because

620
00:31:15,733 --> 00:31:20,453
I think most of your your advocates, I mean, like if I were to have Giacomo Zucco on
and

621
00:31:20,453 --> 00:31:22,133
say, is Bitcoin sound money?

622
00:31:22,133 --> 00:31:24,773
Like, I mean, he'd probably talk about that for four hours.

623
00:31:25,733 --> 00:31:30,293
I mean, this is part of what they don't understand is that the software, if the
software

624
00:31:30,293 --> 00:31:35,093
crashes or if the software is CVE, yeah, and you can spend anyone's coins, including
ones

625
00:31:35,093 --> 00:31:38,293
that are not yours, then it's how sound is that money?

626
00:31:38,293 --> 00:31:41,493
And then if you can create ninety two billion coins, how sound is that?

627
00:31:41,493 --> 00:31:48,373
And if you can crash all the nodes or if there's just no no one wants to mine a
block or if

628
00:31:48,373 --> 00:31:54,453
the security budget falls so low that anyone can mine ten trillion blocks, you know,
for

629
00:31:54,453 --> 00:31:55,253
four hundred dollars.

630
00:31:55,813 --> 00:31:56,453
Yeah.

631
00:31:56,453 --> 00:31:58,533
Then what's the point of proof of work in that case?

632
00:31:58,533 --> 00:32:00,133
It's not accomplishing anything.

633
00:32:00,133 --> 00:32:00,633
So sure.

634
00:32:02,213 --> 00:32:06,853
So a deeper a deeper question, then surely they don't even can't even get what they
want.

635
00:32:06,853 --> 00:32:07,413
Well, right.

636
00:32:07,413 --> 00:32:09,013
And that's the thing I would argue.

637
00:32:09,013 --> 00:32:13,733
BTC specifically as an implementation is definitely not sound money because of the
things that

638
00:32:13,733 --> 00:32:14,533
you've described.

639
00:32:15,253 --> 00:32:21,893
But can't so can it be or should it be like, would it be good if we could make it a
sound

640
00:32:21,893 --> 00:32:22,393
money?

641
00:32:23,093 --> 00:32:25,973
Can it be ossified such that it can grow?

642
00:32:25,973 --> 00:32:30,373
It can be this thing that creates abundance and eight billion people use it without
it

643
00:32:30,373 --> 00:32:36,613
being fundamentally political and requiring a BIP process and a BIP editor and, you
know,

644
00:32:36,613 --> 00:32:39,813
Luke Junior banning people or whatever else.

645
00:32:39,813 --> 00:32:40,613
Is that possible?

646
00:32:41,413 --> 00:32:42,453
It's an interesting question.

647
00:32:42,453 --> 00:32:47,093
I think since Bitcoin inherently affects a whole group of people, in other words,
everyone

648
00:32:47,093 --> 00:32:52,213
who's going to run the nodes and or anyone who's going to be a user and or anyone
who's

649
00:32:52,213 --> 00:32:55,653
going to be a miner, but whatever the point is, you're either you're kind of in the
community

650
00:32:55,653 --> 00:32:59,653
of people who use the yen, you know, that is like people who use Visa.

651
00:32:59,653 --> 00:33:00,533
It's a group of people.

652
00:33:00,533 --> 00:33:05,093
So whenever you have a group of people who are all similarly affected by one thing
that

653
00:33:05,093 --> 00:33:06,613
seems to be inherently political.

654
00:33:06,613 --> 00:33:12,453
And that would be the case for Bitcoin SV or BTC or Litecoin or whatever.

655
00:33:13,413 --> 00:33:16,853
It's just because of the way the design is peer to peer.

656
00:33:17,493 --> 00:33:18,453
So it's like.

657
00:33:20,613 --> 00:33:25,173
They put out one version of the full node and then everyone runs.

658
00:33:25,173 --> 00:33:31,413
I wrote a piece of writing last month in March called Precedence Ossification, which
is kind

659
00:33:31,413 --> 00:33:36,053
of about how to do that, about like what you can do is if you you bet everything on

660
00:33:36,053 --> 00:33:41,573
the soft fork and you say no matter what, if an older node disagrees with a newer
node,

661
00:33:41,573 --> 00:33:42,853
the old node will win.

662
00:33:43,573 --> 00:33:46,773
And then you can kind of have your cake and eat it, too, a little bit where you can
say

663
00:33:47,333 --> 00:33:48,933
we can keep putting out new versions.

664
00:33:50,133 --> 00:33:56,853
The new versions can have bug fixes and they can tighten the rules on the UTXO set
changes.

665
00:33:57,573 --> 00:34:01,893
And but we can't force anyone to upgrade.

666
00:34:01,893 --> 00:34:07,813
And in that case, you have kind of derived the kind of property right where you say
the old

667
00:34:07,813 --> 00:34:11,573
node is supported sort of forever.

668
00:34:11,573 --> 00:34:13,413
I mean, of course, in practice, will that work?

669
00:34:13,413 --> 00:34:13,973
I don't know.

670
00:34:13,973 --> 00:34:15,413
But it's an interesting idea.

671
00:34:15,973 --> 00:34:20,453
And, you know, all the rights that we've created, the property rights, people like
to say like

672
00:34:20,453 --> 00:34:25,493
they come from God or they come from common law or something that I mean, maybe.

673
00:34:25,493 --> 00:34:28,933
But I don't I think we kind of created them ex nihilo.

674
00:34:28,933 --> 00:34:29,173
Right.

675
00:34:29,173 --> 00:34:33,893
Like we're just human beings got together and they said, you know what, if we if
people are

676
00:34:33,893 --> 00:34:36,933
allowed to just steal everything, no one's going to make anything worth.

677
00:34:36,933 --> 00:34:37,573
Sure.

678
00:34:37,573 --> 00:34:39,093
So we need a rule against stealing.

679
00:34:39,813 --> 00:34:43,733
And so I think this is kind of like that where you can just say we're going to try
to make the

680
00:34:43,733 --> 00:34:45,093
property rights part.

681
00:34:46,053 --> 00:34:46,693
We're going to try.

682
00:34:46,693 --> 00:34:47,573
But I don't know.

683
00:34:47,573 --> 00:34:52,773
Many people disagree with what, as you know, there are some crazy there are crazy
ossification

684
00:34:52,773 --> 00:34:56,453
people who think the binary file should never change.

685
00:34:56,453 --> 00:35:00,053
So this is very hard in the context of open source.

686
00:35:00,613 --> 00:35:00,933
Yeah.

687
00:35:00,933 --> 00:35:01,813
First of all, good luck.

688
00:35:01,813 --> 00:35:05,013
Even if everyone even if that like ninety nine percent of people agreed with it.

689
00:35:05,013 --> 00:35:08,453
Still, those people on GitHub, you know, devs are just going to dev.

690
00:35:08,453 --> 00:35:09,733
So they're just going to keep putting out.

691
00:35:09,733 --> 00:35:13,093
Bitcoin Core is going to keep putting out a new version every six months, like
whether

692
00:35:13,093 --> 00:35:14,293
you like it or not.

693
00:35:14,293 --> 00:35:19,173
So but also that idea is untenable for all the reasons we mentioned.

694
00:35:19,253 --> 00:35:25,173
What about eventually when there's 10,000 operating systems from now, then none of
this

695
00:35:25,173 --> 00:35:26,453
the software won't even run on.

696
00:35:26,453 --> 00:35:29,893
Yeah, it still only runs on Linux, Mac OS and Windows.

697
00:35:30,853 --> 00:35:31,573
Yeah.

698
00:35:31,573 --> 00:35:36,453
So let me propose another idea to you because you've mentioned soft forks a few
times.

699
00:35:36,453 --> 00:35:40,373
I have often likened soft forks to malware.

700
00:35:40,373 --> 00:35:43,253
And I'm a big believer in the soft fork.

701
00:35:43,253 --> 00:35:45,173
I heart soft fork.

702
00:35:45,173 --> 00:35:47,173
So maybe we can debate this part.

703
00:35:47,173 --> 00:35:47,413
Yeah.

704
00:35:47,413 --> 00:35:51,653
So let's and it's actually based on something that I read from Mike Hearn many years
ago.

705
00:35:51,653 --> 00:35:55,013
And in that what you're doing is the upgrade path.

706
00:35:55,013 --> 00:35:57,173
In the comment section, arguing with him about it.

707
00:35:57,173 --> 00:36:00,613
And that I'm not really in there.

708
00:36:00,613 --> 00:36:01,093
I don't know.

709
00:36:01,093 --> 00:36:01,973
That's funny.

710
00:36:01,973 --> 00:36:04,773
Delete the comments or something happens to something.

711
00:36:04,773 --> 00:36:07,333
You know, I don't I don't think Mike would delete you.

712
00:36:07,333 --> 00:36:08,933
So if it's there.

713
00:36:08,933 --> 00:36:15,173
But so let me propose the idea as I understand it, as I'll do my best not to straw
man, Mike.

714
00:36:15,173 --> 00:36:21,893
But the way that he says it is that when you create a new client that contains a
soft fork rule,

715
00:36:21,893 --> 00:36:26,933
you're essentially you're creating a rule that the legacy node before it cannot
validate.

716
00:36:26,933 --> 00:36:29,973
And so it doesn't know about it.

717
00:36:29,973 --> 00:36:31,813
It sees null.

718
00:36:31,813 --> 00:36:37,813
So it's essentially forced to follow consensus and trust that the new node is doing
something

719
00:36:37,813 --> 00:36:43,013
that is valid when actually in reality, it's technically invalid relative to the
rules of

720
00:36:43,013 --> 00:36:43,733
the old node.

721
00:36:43,733 --> 00:36:49,733
And so it is now going along with a rule set that if it knew about it would reject
it.

722
00:36:49,733 --> 00:36:55,333
And so for that reason, he proposed and I tend to agree that it follows the
definition

723
00:36:55,333 --> 00:36:56,053
of malware.

724
00:36:56,773 --> 00:36:57,493
What do you think?

725
00:36:57,493 --> 00:37:01,813
Well, I kind of think you could flip that around and look at it upside down.

726
00:37:01,813 --> 00:37:03,413
So I kind of understand what you're saying.

727
00:37:03,413 --> 00:37:09,813
But there's like a different legal principle of like a volunteer can't claim injury
or

728
00:37:09,813 --> 00:37:12,693
something where it's like if you opt in.

729
00:37:13,333 --> 00:37:14,773
This is exactly what you're saying is not happening.

730
00:37:14,773 --> 00:37:21,253
But it's like if someone says, oh, I choose to run across the street when, you know,
and

731
00:37:21,253 --> 00:37:25,093
I get hit by a car or something, that's a bad example, because that's the right
away.

732
00:37:25,093 --> 00:37:26,453
So I don't know what I was thinking with that.

733
00:37:26,453 --> 00:37:32,933
But the point is, okay, here's one example that's actually good, where if you go to
court

734
00:37:32,933 --> 00:37:35,573
and you say, you want to represent yourself.

735
00:37:36,693 --> 00:37:39,493
And the judge will say, I really don't think you should do that.

736
00:37:39,493 --> 00:37:40,453
That's a terrible idea.

737
00:37:41,253 --> 00:37:47,653
And but then they'll say that you have to formally agree that you can't claim a
mistrial

738
00:37:47,653 --> 00:37:49,093
on that basis later.

739
00:37:49,093 --> 00:37:51,813
So you have to say, listen, I'm I know I'm signing up for this.

740
00:37:51,813 --> 00:37:55,013
So the point is, it's a thing that you have.

741
00:37:57,013 --> 00:38:01,173
You have voluntarily resigned.

742
00:38:01,173 --> 00:38:05,653
So the point I'm trying to make is there's the opt not to take the case of OpNop2,
which

743
00:38:05,653 --> 00:38:10,933
pre-soft fork was anyone can spend.

744
00:38:10,933 --> 00:38:16,373
So if the script interpreter sees OpNop2, it will just say that this is fine.

745
00:38:17,013 --> 00:38:21,333
And it will not throw an error just because it sees OpNop2.

746
00:38:21,333 --> 00:38:28,053
After the soft fork, it says if there's OpNop2, then the script interpreter will say
it's

747
00:38:28,053 --> 00:38:30,933
fine unless such and such happens.

748
00:38:31,573 --> 00:38:33,493
And then it will throw an error.

749
00:38:33,653 --> 00:38:35,333
Mark, the transaction is invalid.

750
00:38:35,333 --> 00:38:40,533
And then since the transaction is invalid, the whole block that it's in is invalid.

751
00:38:41,413 --> 00:38:43,893
So that's post after the soft fork.

752
00:38:45,333 --> 00:38:51,173
And so the idea is kind of like you were saying when you ran the version that said
anyone

753
00:38:51,173 --> 00:38:55,493
could spend OpNop2, you were kind of saying I don't you were kind of voluntarily
saying,

754
00:38:55,493 --> 00:38:56,853
oh, I don't care about OpNop2.

755
00:38:56,853 --> 00:39:00,373
But you kind of have just a moment ago, you kind of have looked at it the other way
where

756
00:39:00,453 --> 00:39:04,133
you said, well, if you want to use OpNop2, you have to come and tell me first.

757
00:39:04,133 --> 00:39:07,093
And then I have to have to sign something and say, I agree.

758
00:39:07,093 --> 00:39:14,213
Let's for the sake of the discussion, OpNop2 was no operation, I think is what NOP
is,

759
00:39:14,213 --> 00:39:14,773
if I recall.

760
00:39:14,773 --> 00:39:17,653
So it's essentially an empty op code, as I understand it.

761
00:39:17,653 --> 00:39:24,293
And then either I can't remember if it was NOP or NOP2 got repurposed in the CLTV
upgrade?

762
00:39:24,293 --> 00:39:25,333
Yes, I believe it was.

763
00:39:25,333 --> 00:39:27,413
I believe it was late 2015.

764
00:39:28,373 --> 00:39:29,653
And I believe it was OpNop2.

765
00:39:29,653 --> 00:39:31,493
And I believe it's CheckLockTimeVerify.

766
00:39:31,493 --> 00:39:32,213
OK.

767
00:39:32,213 --> 00:39:41,013
So if it got repurposed for CheckLockTimeVerify, at what point would something using
OpNop2

768
00:39:41,013 --> 00:39:42,053
been and anyone can spend?

769
00:39:42,053 --> 00:39:43,893
Would it have been not before that?

770
00:39:43,893 --> 00:39:44,933
Before, before.

771
00:39:45,573 --> 00:39:49,493
So yeah, before you could use it and it would just like not, it would not achieve
anything.

772
00:39:49,493 --> 00:39:53,253
It would just because what you're trying to do is limit the spend case.

773
00:39:53,573 --> 00:39:56,773
What CheckLockTimeVerify is, it's kind of like postdating a check.

774
00:39:56,773 --> 00:39:57,973
This was all to help Lightning.

775
00:39:57,973 --> 00:40:00,293
So there's so many, there was many, many soft forks.

776
00:40:00,293 --> 00:40:03,653
Yeah, to get to L2.

777
00:40:03,653 --> 00:40:06,613
And even Taproot, they're all to help support Lightning.

778
00:40:06,613 --> 00:40:12,693
So it is an irony that Lightning gets all the support, and then these other things,

779
00:40:12,693 --> 00:40:15,813
the Covenants and BIP300, they get zero support.

780
00:40:17,333 --> 00:40:19,333
We got to protect the sacred cow of Lightning.

781
00:40:20,133 --> 00:40:26,773
But if CheckLockTimeVerify is like, it's kind of like this transaction cannot be
included

782
00:40:26,773 --> 00:40:30,293
in a block until this block height, which is in the future.

783
00:40:31,093 --> 00:40:38,133
So you could use OpNop2, you could try to do that and put OpNop2 and then put like a

784
00:40:38,133 --> 00:40:41,733
number there and say, but it wouldn't actually enforce anything.

785
00:40:41,733 --> 00:40:43,653
You could include the transaction earlier.

786
00:40:44,933 --> 00:40:45,093
Right.

787
00:40:45,893 --> 00:40:50,533
So in that sense, it would be, and because you wouldn't just spend it to, you
wouldn't

788
00:40:50,533 --> 00:40:54,133
just say, I'm sending this money to something that is only locked.

789
00:40:54,133 --> 00:40:56,133
The money has to be locked to like a certain script.

790
00:40:57,253 --> 00:41:00,533
And the script is like a little program made of the opcodes.

791
00:41:00,533 --> 00:41:04,533
And so if you just put like, I'm not even sure what would happen if you just put
like

792
00:41:04,533 --> 00:41:08,533
OpNop2 and then like the money there and there was just nothing else there.

793
00:41:08,533 --> 00:41:09,093
I don't know.

794
00:41:09,093 --> 00:41:11,493
Like maybe it would just be just frozen there.

795
00:41:12,533 --> 00:41:14,293
Yeah, it might just be an error.

796
00:41:15,093 --> 00:41:17,253
But what would happen with that?

797
00:41:17,813 --> 00:41:30,213
But, or maybe, but the point is that before the soft fork, you could use it in any
way

798
00:41:30,213 --> 00:41:33,333
you want and it would not lock anything.

799
00:41:33,893 --> 00:41:40,613
After that, it successfully locks before the post dated amount you cannot include.

800
00:41:40,613 --> 00:41:42,453
And then after that, you can include the transaction.

801
00:41:43,413 --> 00:41:48,373
So I don't know, depending on how you, the whole thing considered at once would be
if

802
00:41:48,373 --> 00:41:48,533
it.

803
00:41:51,093 --> 00:41:52,053
It's interesting.

804
00:41:52,053 --> 00:41:55,813
Well, and, but again, it's, so we're, we're talking in theory.

805
00:41:55,813 --> 00:41:59,253
I think we're also displaying something here about this.

806
00:41:59,253 --> 00:42:00,533
I don't even know what would happen.

807
00:42:00,533 --> 00:42:02,053
What would happen if we did X?

808
00:42:02,053 --> 00:42:04,533
Because it's only had OpNop2 on it.

809
00:42:04,533 --> 00:42:04,933
I don't know.

810
00:42:04,933 --> 00:42:08,373
I'm sure you could fire up the software and see what would happen.

811
00:42:08,373 --> 00:42:10,293
Yeah, somebody, somebody will test it, I'm sure.

812
00:42:10,293 --> 00:42:16,213
But the, but what's being displayed here is that because like the reference client
is

813
00:42:16,213 --> 00:42:19,013
not, it's not actually a spec, right?

814
00:42:19,013 --> 00:42:24,373
I think a lot of people treat Bitcoin Core as if it is like the spec, like this is
Bitcoin.

815
00:42:24,373 --> 00:42:30,613
And it's not, it's an implementation suggestion for BTC version of Bitcoin.

816
00:42:30,613 --> 00:42:34,693
And ultimately, whether or not that's adopted, there's two ways to treat it.

817
00:42:34,693 --> 00:42:38,533
There's the political, like, well, it's got the most proof of work and whatever, but
that

818
00:42:38,533 --> 00:42:42,373
would be a rules-based, like, you know, you, you, you start referencing things like
here's,

819
00:42:42,373 --> 00:42:48,133
here's what my Bible tells me to think based on white paper, Satoshi and how I feel.

820
00:42:49,013 --> 00:42:53,973
And then you have the other variation where you could say, but is there a way to
come

821
00:42:53,973 --> 00:42:57,333
up with an objective definition for, is this a Bitcoin thing?

822
00:42:57,333 --> 00:43:05,013
Like, is, is Bitcoin still Bitcoin if Opnop2 is sort of undermined, frankly, to, to
create

823
00:43:05,013 --> 00:43:10,133
this check lock time verify in order to further undermine Bitcoin with lightning
network at

824
00:43:10,133 --> 00:43:11,253
some point in the future.

825
00:43:11,253 --> 00:43:16,053
And like, it seems like a snowball problem, like where, where you're like, okay,
we're

826
00:43:16,053 --> 00:43:21,253
now, now we're, now we're creating like a bigger and bigger problem that, you know,

827
00:43:21,253 --> 00:43:24,533
down the road, which I think is clearly the case now.

828
00:43:24,533 --> 00:43:29,653
But this is why I'm, I'm a big fan of that set in stone, like general purpose rules,

829
00:43:29,653 --> 00:43:34,693
lock them down, but make it scalable from where you lock it down, essentially like
nodes

830
00:43:34,693 --> 00:43:37,573
compete, et cetera.

831
00:43:38,853 --> 00:43:43,813
But as I sort of mentioned before, the Opnops were put in as blank and they were
supposed

832
00:43:43,813 --> 00:43:50,613
to be used later for something, you know, that the future people decided that they
wanted.

833
00:43:50,613 --> 00:43:58,053
So the claiming of Opnop2 via SoftFork, I think that was what was intended, you
know,

834
00:43:58,053 --> 00:43:59,093
the whole time.

835
00:43:59,093 --> 00:44:07,653
And of course there are many, there are many opcodes in the whole set and Satoshi,
you

836
00:44:07,653 --> 00:44:13,253
know, put a ton in, some he took out later, some he kind of rushed, panicked or, you
know,

837
00:44:13,253 --> 00:44:17,253
I don't know that he panicked, but there was a case where one of them let you spend
anyone's

838
00:44:17,253 --> 00:44:17,653
money.

839
00:44:17,653 --> 00:44:20,373
And then shortly after that, he disabled like a whole set of them.

840
00:44:20,373 --> 00:44:24,373
So it sort of seemed like he thought, well, maybe I only want to have a few of
these,

841
00:44:24,373 --> 00:44:27,813
but then he put in this thing that let you add them back basically.

842
00:44:28,533 --> 00:44:35,253
And so I think that the Opnop2, I don't really see that as undermining anything,
right?

843
00:44:35,253 --> 00:44:40,053
Because your old node is still going to look at Opnop2 and, and carefully consider,
look,

844
00:44:40,053 --> 00:44:42,853
it's going to still go back to the book and look up what does this mean?

845
00:44:43,813 --> 00:44:48,373
And what it's going to find in its old book is this means whatever they put here,
don't

846
00:44:48,373 --> 00:44:51,573
complain, just, just ignore it and say that it's fine.

847
00:44:52,613 --> 00:44:56,053
It'd be like, if you, it'd be like, if you worked at a bank and then they had the
date

848
00:44:56,053 --> 00:45:00,853
on the check, they started at, you had checks with no date and then they added the
date

849
00:45:00,853 --> 00:45:04,613
later, but at your branch, it just says, just ignore that.

850
00:45:04,613 --> 00:45:08,053
That's something that is on the newer checks and you don't have to look at that.

851
00:45:08,053 --> 00:45:13,813
So that, but the, here's the thing is you are working at a bank before that didn't
even

852
00:45:13,813 --> 00:45:15,653
have the date field on the check.

853
00:45:15,653 --> 00:45:17,573
So in what sense was something undermined?

854
00:45:17,573 --> 00:45:19,013
It's not just a bunch of graffiti.

855
00:45:19,813 --> 00:45:23,493
It's a bunch of graffiti on the check that is meaningless to you, but it does mean
something

856
00:45:23,493 --> 00:45:24,293
to the newer people.

857
00:45:24,293 --> 00:45:30,213
So it's, it's an articulation of this principle of liberalism that we should, a lot
of different

858
00:45:30,213 --> 00:45:31,333
people want different things.

859
00:45:32,053 --> 00:45:36,853
And as long as I can swing my fist wherever I want, as long as it doesn't contact
your

860
00:45:36,853 --> 00:45:41,173
face or something like that, you know, the old idea of that, of like, we need to
maximize

861
00:45:41,173 --> 00:45:45,093
the freedom, except when the freedom starts to contradict each other.

862
00:45:45,093 --> 00:45:46,773
And then we have to come up with something.

863
00:45:46,773 --> 00:45:50,373
But this is pretty nice because the up-and-up too, the old people still have exactly
what

864
00:45:50,373 --> 00:45:51,413
they had before.

865
00:45:51,413 --> 00:45:52,133
Yeah.

866
00:45:52,133 --> 00:45:53,653
And the new people absolutely want it.

867
00:45:53,653 --> 00:45:55,413
But are we, are we fixing the money?

868
00:45:55,413 --> 00:46:00,693
I mean, that's really, for me, I, you know, I got into Bitcoin 12 years ago, 13
years

869
00:46:00,693 --> 00:46:01,493
ago, something now.

870
00:46:02,053 --> 00:46:04,773
And the big reason for that is I wanted to fix the money.

871
00:46:04,773 --> 00:46:09,973
I wanted people to stop tinkering with the damn money so that we could get payments
worked

872
00:46:09,973 --> 00:46:14,293
out, savings worked out, financial vehicles worked out in a way that was open and
public

873
00:46:14,293 --> 00:46:19,893
and that I could trust that in five years or 50 years or 500 years, that my smart
contract

874
00:46:19,893 --> 00:46:24,293
that did my thing is still going to be validated on the network and, and all of
that.

875
00:46:24,293 --> 00:46:25,573
It's like, right.

876
00:46:25,573 --> 00:46:27,093
And that's still my goal.

877
00:46:27,093 --> 00:46:32,773
But I feel like with this tinkering and, and this, you know, like who knows what
Bitcoin

878
00:46:32,773 --> 00:46:34,293
Core is even going to look like in 18 months.

879
00:46:34,293 --> 00:46:38,533
Now, like you said, maybe it's another 80 months until there's another BIP that gets

880
00:46:38,533 --> 00:46:39,093
pushed out.

881
00:46:39,093 --> 00:46:43,093
But, but in a hundred years, like, is, is that even possible?

882
00:46:43,093 --> 00:46:44,213
Or are we still going there?

883
00:46:44,213 --> 00:46:47,813
Or is that something that we should quit on as a, as a goal or a value?

884
00:46:48,853 --> 00:46:53,013
Well, the question of whether or not something will still be here in 500 years and
also is

885
00:46:53,013 --> 00:46:56,613
similarly as to whether or not it can compete with the banks, which is also, that's
how

886
00:46:56,613 --> 00:46:58,693
I was interested in Bitcoin.

887
00:46:58,693 --> 00:46:58,933
Yeah.

888
00:46:59,813 --> 00:47:01,013
Bitcoin versus the banks.

889
00:47:01,013 --> 00:47:05,333
That was like what I, that was popular around when I was learning about it.

890
00:47:05,333 --> 00:47:09,413
So I thought that this is going to be great.

891
00:47:10,613 --> 00:47:15,413
Those questions are all related to like, you know, what your explanation is of how
it will

892
00:47:15,413 --> 00:47:15,973
succeed.

893
00:47:15,973 --> 00:47:21,573
So if people think, oh, I want this, the small blockers and the L, I consider myself
L1

894
00:47:21,573 --> 00:47:22,293
small blocker.

895
00:47:23,573 --> 00:47:29,813
So we say if, if you keep adding stuff to L1, the full node costs, the cost of
validating

896
00:47:29,813 --> 00:47:35,493
every block and every transaction and checking them all for double spends, this cost
will

897
00:47:36,293 --> 00:47:37,573
keep growing forever.

898
00:47:37,573 --> 00:47:41,173
And it also, when you start up a new node, you have to process the historical blocks

899
00:47:41,173 --> 00:47:43,093
and you have to send them to people who ask for them.

900
00:47:43,093 --> 00:47:47,733
Otherwise, no one will know what is in the blockchain and whether or not it, let
alone

901
00:47:47,733 --> 00:47:50,533
whether or not it contains invalid transactions or double spends.

902
00:47:50,533 --> 00:47:52,293
So this cost will go up and up and up.

903
00:47:52,293 --> 00:47:54,613
And who knows if in 500 years, maybe it'll be too high.

904
00:47:54,613 --> 00:47:58,213
And the network just will reach this state where it has to halt.

905
00:47:58,853 --> 00:48:00,773
Should, should everyone run their own node?

906
00:48:01,893 --> 00:48:06,293
I don't believe with, in Luke, Luke Dashjr. and I disagree on this.

907
00:48:06,293 --> 00:48:11,253
He has this view that if, if you use, he has a, I don't, I've tried to figure out
his view

908
00:48:11,253 --> 00:48:13,173
and I think he's a very smart guy.

909
00:48:13,173 --> 00:48:14,293
He's a very interesting guy.

910
00:48:15,733 --> 00:48:17,813
He's also crazy, but everyone in Bitcoin is crazy.

911
00:48:18,453 --> 00:48:18,693
Yeah.

912
00:48:18,693 --> 00:48:20,053
Everyone in Bitcoin SV is crazy.

913
00:48:20,053 --> 00:48:20,933
Everyone's crazy.

914
00:48:20,933 --> 00:48:22,693
He's pretty far out on the fringe though.

915
00:48:22,693 --> 00:48:24,533
Luke is not the normal kind of crazy.

916
00:48:24,773 --> 00:48:31,573
Definitely, you know, you can make like a greatest hit tweets of his that would,
would

917
00:48:31,573 --> 00:48:32,533
boggle the mind.

918
00:48:32,533 --> 00:48:33,573
And I don't need some of them.

919
00:48:33,573 --> 00:48:39,333
I can't even say like, cause they're so bizarre, but yeah, but he's an interesting
guy.

920
00:48:39,333 --> 00:48:44,853
But Luke's view is something like, if you don't, he's, I, you ask him to put a
number

921
00:48:44,853 --> 00:48:45,093
on it.

922
00:48:45,093 --> 00:48:50,773
Like he says something like 80% of people using Bitcoin must run a full node.

923
00:48:50,773 --> 00:48:52,213
I don't know where this number comes from.

924
00:48:53,013 --> 00:48:56,933
But he seems to really think like you need to have a super majority of full nodes
and

925
00:48:56,933 --> 00:49:02,453
only a few people can free ride off the nodes with SPV.

926
00:49:03,013 --> 00:49:04,453
This is where I disagree with him.

927
00:49:04,453 --> 00:49:11,573
And the, I agree with the Bitcoin SV community on how cool SPV is.

928
00:49:11,573 --> 00:49:13,173
I think SPV is very cool.

929
00:49:13,173 --> 00:49:20,053
And I don't think there's any issue at all with like 99 plus percent of the people.

930
00:49:20,693 --> 00:49:25,653
Uh, like you could have a few full nodes, whatever, like one 10th of a percent.

931
00:49:25,653 --> 00:49:27,573
And then you have 8 billion people running SPV.

932
00:49:28,533 --> 00:49:29,253
I think that's fine.

933
00:49:29,253 --> 00:49:32,213
The ratio doesn't make any difference to me really.

934
00:49:32,213 --> 00:49:37,893
The health, it's the health of the host versus the SPV are kind of like parasites a
little

935
00:49:37,893 --> 00:49:40,693
bit free rider, free riding parasites.

936
00:49:40,693 --> 00:49:43,253
But I think it's the fact that it works is so amazing.

937
00:49:43,253 --> 00:49:45,333
And it only costs 4.4 megabytes per year.

938
00:49:45,333 --> 00:49:49,093
And it's, it's unbelievable no matter what the blocks contain.

939
00:49:49,733 --> 00:49:52,533
And, um, so you, the, I'm still upset.

940
00:49:52,533 --> 00:49:56,293
I, where I agree with the small blockers is you have to kind of be obsessed with the
health

941
00:49:56,293 --> 00:49:59,413
of the full nodes, because if you are, if someone has to.

942
00:49:59,618 --> 00:50:02,618
responsibility for this problem, or it will just, so this is where I disagree

943
00:50:02,618 --> 00:50:06,258
with Bitcoin SPV, but yeah, Luke thinks that everyone has to run their own node.

944
00:50:06,578 --> 00:50:10,098
And he thinks that if the percentage drops below 80%, then that means

945
00:50:10,098 --> 00:50:11,738
then, then Bitcoin has failed.

946
00:50:11,818 --> 00:50:14,378
So he's got his own, everyone has their own like thing where

947
00:50:14,378 --> 00:50:15,498
they think Bitcoin has failed.

948
00:50:16,418 --> 00:50:21,378
And it doesn't make any sense because let's say you have the same number of

949
00:50:21,378 --> 00:50:22,818
Bitcoin users today.

950
00:50:22,898 --> 00:50:24,858
Let's say everyone runs a full node today.

951
00:50:25,258 --> 00:50:33,058
And then, uh, you know, every, everyone in the country of India turns on a new

952
00:50:33,058 --> 00:50:34,218
SPV node or something.

953
00:50:34,738 --> 00:50:36,058
This is purely additive.

954
00:50:36,058 --> 00:50:38,498
We had what we had before plus something, you know?

955
00:50:39,058 --> 00:50:39,258
Yeah.

956
00:50:39,258 --> 00:50:39,858
It shouldn't matter.

957
00:50:39,858 --> 00:50:42,098
But now, according to Luke, now Bitcoin has failed because of that.

958
00:50:42,098 --> 00:50:43,818
Like what the heck is he talking about?

959
00:50:43,818 --> 00:50:48,898
And of course, when people, um, when people are running full nodes, they're

960
00:50:48,898 --> 00:50:56,098
And of course, when people, um, when people first join the network, um,

961
00:50:56,898 --> 00:51:00,418
if they're very unlikely, you know, Hey, do you want to give us 750 gigabytes

962
00:51:00,418 --> 00:51:01,098
worth of space?

963
00:51:01,138 --> 00:51:04,058
Like that's the first thing they're asked, right?

964
00:51:04,498 --> 00:51:09,418
And well, you know, like they don't want to figure out like what the heck is going

965
00:51:09,418 --> 00:51:09,498
on.

966
00:51:09,658 --> 00:51:11,858
They own zero Bitcoin at this point, possibly.

967
00:51:12,298 --> 00:51:14,338
And they just go to bitcoin.org and they, they don't.

968
00:51:14,338 --> 00:51:17,778
And it says, we need, we need you to leave your computer on all the time.

969
00:51:17,778 --> 00:51:18,938
And we did 750 gigabytes.

970
00:51:18,938 --> 00:51:20,338
It's going to be, it's going to be a few weeks.

971
00:51:20,338 --> 00:51:20,538
Yeah.

972
00:51:20,898 --> 00:51:27,778
So they're going to think like, um, yeah, the sync time is so, but people have to

973
00:51:27,778 --> 00:51:29,058
warm up to the idea is my point.

974
00:51:29,098 --> 00:51:33,618
So I don't, I don't understand why we wouldn't ramp people up by saying, and in

975
00:51:33,618 --> 00:51:38,538
fact, de facto, it happens anyway, whether or not Luke wants it or not, because what

976
00:51:38,538 --> 00:51:42,578
happens is people show up on Coinbase, they buy BTC on a website.

977
00:51:43,738 --> 00:51:45,658
They don't even have an SBB node.

978
00:51:46,138 --> 00:51:47,898
It's on, it's on Coinbase.

979
00:51:47,938 --> 00:51:51,538
And so that's their first, that's the real ramp up that we actually have.

980
00:51:51,818 --> 00:51:55,178
And then you have all these people who clearly don't, I mean, I, I doubt, I very

981
00:51:55,178 --> 00:51:57,138
much doubt Michael Saylor runs his own full node.

982
00:51:57,618 --> 00:51:58,938
Oh, no way.

983
00:51:59,418 --> 00:52:02,098
No, he's, he probably has a Coinbase custody account.

984
00:52:02,098 --> 00:52:04,978
Do you actually know like what he would do if the full node told him like that the

985
00:52:04,978 --> 00:52:05,778
coins aren't really there?

986
00:52:05,778 --> 00:52:08,978
Like it doesn't really, um, so he doesn't really, he's not really plugged into that

987
00:52:09,898 --> 00:52:11,418
part of the system at all.

988
00:52:11,418 --> 00:52:13,698
So what does Luke have to say about that?

989
00:52:13,698 --> 00:52:14,258
I don't know.

990
00:52:14,258 --> 00:52:17,218
But, you know, I, you know, I think Luke is an interesting guy, but I don't agree

991
00:52:17,218 --> 00:52:17,818
with him on that.

992
00:52:17,818 --> 00:52:22,578
And I agree with the BitcoinSV people, SBB is perfectly fine, especially you want to

993
00:52:22,578 --> 00:52:25,178
co-vary what you do based on the context.

994
00:52:25,338 --> 00:52:29,178
So again, if you don't own any Bitcoin and this is your first day, it's a very

995
00:52:29,178 --> 00:52:33,458
different situation than theoretically you're a Ross Albright or something, you

996
00:52:33,458 --> 00:52:36,658
know, it's to take an example, but you're running an anonymous service and the

997
00:52:36,658 --> 00:52:40,178
money is, you need to check and see if people actually send you Bitcoin or not.

998
00:52:40,178 --> 00:52:43,618
Cause of course they would lie to you if they could get, you know, free addictive

999
00:52:43,658 --> 00:52:44,298
drugs out of it.

1000
00:52:44,298 --> 00:52:44,618
They would.

1001
00:52:45,778 --> 00:52:47,618
So, so let's unpack this a little bit.

1002
00:52:47,618 --> 00:52:50,938
Cause I think there's a, there's an antagonism in your position.

1003
00:52:51,298 --> 00:52:56,298
Like if you agree that SPV is good, but you're, you're concerned about the health

1004
00:52:56,298 --> 00:52:59,418
of full nodes, I guess, I guess I would like you to define what you mean by the

1005
00:52:59,418 --> 00:53:00,258
health of a full node.

1006
00:53:00,258 --> 00:53:03,658
Like why, why not have five gigabyte blocks?

1007
00:53:03,658 --> 00:53:07,138
Like why would that matter if it's a commercial entity that is providing proof

1008
00:53:07,138 --> 00:53:10,658
of work and giving Merkle proofs and all this stuff that their blocks are valid.

1009
00:53:10,898 --> 00:53:15,218
Why should it matter how big the blockchain is relative to you saying that a full

1010
00:53:15,218 --> 00:53:16,098
node should be healthy?

1011
00:53:17,138 --> 00:53:18,338
Well, this is exactly it.

1012
00:53:18,378 --> 00:53:23,218
And this is the, so the open question, but my logic is this, which is that if I'm,

1013
00:53:24,018 --> 00:53:29,218
whether you're the parasites or the host, the host, the health of the host is very

1014
00:53:29,218 --> 00:53:32,738
important to the, so if you know, if you're a host, then you care about your own

1015
00:53:32,738 --> 00:53:33,138
health.

1016
00:53:33,618 --> 00:53:34,098
Sure.

1017
00:53:34,178 --> 00:53:39,498
And if you're the parasite, you don't want to pick that parasite is such a mean

1018
00:53:39,498 --> 00:53:42,378
word, but you know, it's kind of the point I'm just trying to get at that.

1019
00:53:42,378 --> 00:53:45,418
I don't, I don't love it, but I get, I get what you're saying.

1020
00:53:45,778 --> 00:53:48,298
The SPV, I just want to explain it for other people who think I'm being mean,

1021
00:53:48,298 --> 00:53:50,058
which is a SPV node doesn't have any data.

1022
00:53:50,058 --> 00:53:55,258
So if you put stuff, if two SPV nodes meet and they ask each other for block, the

1023
00:53:55,258 --> 00:53:58,098
contents of block 700, then neither of them, they're both going to leave

1024
00:53:58,098 --> 00:54:01,098
disappointed because no one had, they don't have, both don't have.

1025
00:54:01,458 --> 00:54:07,858
So, um, only if you're using SPV, you have to free ride off of someone else's

1026
00:54:07,858 --> 00:54:08,258
full node.

1027
00:54:09,618 --> 00:54:14,818
And, um, so you want to make sure that the host, if you're a parasite, you want

1028
00:54:14,818 --> 00:54:17,098
to make sure you pick a healthy, if you have a choice between healthy hosts

1029
00:54:17,098 --> 00:54:20,698
versus a host that's dying, you want to pick the healthy host.

1030
00:54:20,698 --> 00:54:24,378
So that's why I think it doesn't, it's almost SPV is almost irrelevant to the

1031
00:54:24,378 --> 00:54:28,338
question of, of what's going to survive in the long run.

1032
00:54:28,898 --> 00:54:30,898
And SPV is the opium.

1033
00:54:31,418 --> 00:54:37,738
It's the Novocaine that dulls the pain of the block size increase, because

1034
00:54:37,738 --> 00:54:39,538
you don't feel it because you're free riding.

1035
00:54:40,378 --> 00:54:42,338
And then that way it is a deception.

1036
00:54:43,338 --> 00:54:46,618
But I do think if Bitcoin succeeds, 8 billion people will be using SPV.

1037
00:54:46,978 --> 00:54:52,298
But I think that we have to care about the, so maybe the more concretely answer

1038
00:54:52,298 --> 00:54:59,298
the question is that you have less of a guarantee of what you're getting into.

1039
00:54:59,298 --> 00:55:06,138
You're thinking, because the bigger the blocks are, the higher the cost is of

1040
00:55:06,138 --> 00:55:08,378
processing all the blocks, because it's not free.

1041
00:55:08,378 --> 00:55:10,498
You have to, you have to get every block.

1042
00:55:11,258 --> 00:55:12,178
This is in the white paper.

1043
00:55:12,178 --> 00:55:13,618
You've got to store the blocks.

1044
00:55:14,018 --> 00:55:17,418
You have to check every transaction, see if it's invalid or a double spend.

1045
00:55:18,738 --> 00:55:23,738
In a way, the only way you can check it as if it's a double spend is to know

1046
00:55:23,738 --> 00:55:27,178
what all the previous spends are, because if it conflicts with one of

1047
00:55:27,178 --> 00:55:28,498
them, then it's a double spend.

1048
00:55:29,098 --> 00:55:29,378
Yeah.

1049
00:55:29,618 --> 00:55:36,618
So this is where I, one thing where I completely agree with the Bitcoin SPV

1050
00:55:36,618 --> 00:55:41,538
people, I should, I really should stress this, which is that in BTC world, it has

1051
00:55:41,538 --> 00:55:47,418
become kind of a boogeyman of like, if we increase the block size, the network

1052
00:55:47,458 --> 00:55:51,418
is certain to reach a death state or something.

1053
00:55:51,978 --> 00:55:55,978
And then we'll, and then we'll all regret our hubris and how we

1054
00:55:55,978 --> 00:55:58,698
mock the gods by whatever.

1055
00:55:58,898 --> 00:56:07,298
You know, so a more sane thing to do in BTC would be if we had test versions

1056
00:56:07,298 --> 00:56:10,018
with different block sizes, and you could see, you'd have like numbers, you

1057
00:56:10,018 --> 00:56:14,218
know, like a normal person would have like tested out and say, and I think

1058
00:56:14,218 --> 00:56:17,338
you guys are doing this, there used to be, I think, I don't know, Andrew Stone

1059
00:56:17,338 --> 00:56:21,018
or someone in Bitcoin Cash had some version that had like the largest blocks

1060
00:56:21,018 --> 00:56:23,858
possible to stress test the software.

1061
00:56:24,258 --> 00:56:25,458
And you guys have something, I don't know.

1062
00:56:25,458 --> 00:56:26,498
I saw a Terra node.

1063
00:56:26,698 --> 00:56:27,298
I don't know.

1064
00:56:27,658 --> 00:56:27,938
Yeah.

1065
00:56:27,938 --> 00:56:32,098
So Terra node, the, the idea is terabyte size blocks, but one of the, one of the

1066
00:56:32,098 --> 00:56:37,698
big things in BSV just for context is that instead of it being a consensus

1067
00:56:37,698 --> 00:56:42,538
rule, it's policy rule and, and I run a BSV pool and for us, like we're

1068
00:56:42,538 --> 00:56:46,098
willing to accept 10 gigabyte blocks and we're willing to build four gigabyte

1069
00:56:46,098 --> 00:56:48,418
blocks, but that's just a policy setting for us.

1070
00:56:48,418 --> 00:56:51,418
I could make it, we'll mine 10 gigabyte blocks and we'll accept a hundred

1071
00:56:51,418 --> 00:56:55,378
gigabyte blocks, like it doesn't really, it's not going to kick me off the

1072
00:56:55,378 --> 00:56:57,458
network by having a policy setting change.

1073
00:56:57,458 --> 00:57:00,818
And I think that's a generally good thing for that to be a competitive

1074
00:57:00,818 --> 00:57:04,898
part of the network rather than a hard capped protocol decision.

1075
00:57:05,898 --> 00:57:12,658
In general, it is preferable to like let, you know, different

1076
00:57:12,658 --> 00:57:13,618
strokes for different folks.

1077
00:57:13,618 --> 00:57:15,218
So that, that in general, that's good.

1078
00:57:15,218 --> 00:57:20,418
But in this case, the, you allow a block today and it's going to affect not

1079
00:57:20,418 --> 00:57:24,978
only the people today, but everyone in the future will be on the hook for

1080
00:57:24,978 --> 00:57:25,778
that block.

1081
00:57:25,778 --> 00:57:30,258
So it is, the people mining today might not even be the same people who mine

1082
00:57:30,258 --> 00:57:30,818
in the future.

1083
00:57:31,458 --> 00:57:31,938
Yeah.

1084
00:57:31,938 --> 00:57:39,058
So in that way, it's not as good because you think, well, we'll allow this

1085
00:57:39,058 --> 00:57:43,138
giant problem into the community today.

1086
00:57:43,138 --> 00:57:46,018
And then, and then, and then a year from now, we'll be out of here.

1087
00:57:46,018 --> 00:57:49,218
And then 10 years from now, people will be like, oh, grumbling about it.

1088
00:57:49,218 --> 00:57:49,778
Perhaps.

1089
00:57:49,778 --> 00:57:52,898
So it kind of reminds me, I mean, it reminds me of the people that are

1090
00:57:52,898 --> 00:57:57,058
saying like, wow, we need to get rid of 80% of the global population for the

1091
00:57:57,058 --> 00:57:58,578
sake of a climate or something.

1092
00:57:58,578 --> 00:58:02,258
It's like, well, isn't the purpose of the purpose of the climate is to make

1093
00:58:02,258 --> 00:58:03,058
people, isn't it?

1094
00:58:03,058 --> 00:58:07,698
Like, you know, well, and, and same.

1095
00:58:07,698 --> 00:58:09,618
I'm trying to win some points with the audience.

1096
00:58:09,618 --> 00:58:10,658
That'd be good.

1097
00:58:11,538 --> 00:58:13,618
And I think that's the same thing about Bitcoin.

1098
00:58:13,618 --> 00:58:15,298
As you're saying, like, well, I'm, I'm pro Bitcoin.

1099
00:58:15,298 --> 00:58:17,698
I want as many people as possible to use Bitcoin.

1100
00:58:17,698 --> 00:58:24,258
And I, I really think that all of our ideas extrapolated out there, they do

1101
00:58:24,258 --> 00:58:26,018
require big block Bitcoin.

1102
00:58:26,658 --> 00:58:27,218
At some point.

1103
00:58:27,218 --> 00:58:31,378
There's another thing on my list about, I think Bitcoin, I made my tiny little list

1104
00:58:31,378 --> 00:58:36,738
of things that BSV people are right about, I think, which is, but one of them is
that

1105
00:58:36,738 --> 00:58:40,738
like, we have to have in mind 8 billion people using it.

1106
00:58:40,738 --> 00:58:44,578
Like, so someone is going to process whatever you want to call it.

1107
00:58:44,658 --> 00:58:47,378
Like, someone will process these blocks somehow.

1108
00:58:47,378 --> 00:58:53,778
And I'm in favor of like chopping it up at this weird L2, like pyramid shape.

1109
00:58:53,778 --> 00:59:02,018
But the, but the point is, it's like, you know, we have these other networks, Visa,

1110
00:59:02,018 --> 00:59:05,298
Venmo, whatever, they can do it without, without bursting into flames.

1111
00:59:05,298 --> 00:59:12,418
So they have, they have some, like, it's not like it's not possible.

1112
00:59:12,418 --> 00:59:15,858
The question is just like, what, what exactly are we comfortable with?

1113
00:59:15,858 --> 00:59:20,098
And if we, if we reach a world where everyone is using Bitcoin, then yes, there
were, there

1114
00:59:20,098 --> 00:59:23,618
are, I tried to estimate it with some napkin math, but it's like, there's 9 trillion

1115
00:59:23,618 --> 00:59:25,138
transactions a year, basically.

1116
00:59:25,138 --> 00:59:29,698
I tried to like, it's a complete guess, but I, I tried to figure it out, honestly.

1117
00:59:29,698 --> 00:59:34,258
And so that is, so that's just how many happen.

1118
00:59:34,258 --> 00:59:38,178
So if you want that to happen, then those, that data is going to be somewhere.

1119
00:59:38,178 --> 00:59:43,778
And even the, I feel like the lightning people kind of wanted to imagine a world
where they

1120
00:59:43,778 --> 00:59:48,498
would all happen there and then L1 would not be used as frequently or something,
whatever.

1121
00:59:48,498 --> 00:59:53,858
So I think everyone kind of sort of buys that, but they don't, to your point, they
don't

1122
00:59:53,858 --> 00:59:56,418
really like, they don't seriously buy it enough.

1123
00:59:56,418 --> 01:00:02,498
They don't sit down and say, they don't start with 9 trillion transactions a year
and say,

1124
01:00:02,498 --> 01:00:03,458
okay, where are we going to put them?

1125
01:00:03,458 --> 01:00:04,098
How do we engineer that?

1126
01:00:04,098 --> 01:00:08,098
They just kind of think, you know, they're kind of going through, some of them are

1127
01:00:08,098 --> 01:00:11,058
going through the motions of, you know, just Bitcoin Core has been this way for a
long

1128
01:00:11,058 --> 01:00:11,698
time.

1129
01:00:11,698 --> 01:00:17,698
And they just think, well, you know, you know, we'll, we'll see, we'll, we'll make a
bit.

1130
01:00:17,698 --> 01:00:19,058
We're getting, we're getting rich.

1131
01:00:19,058 --> 01:00:20,498
So don't rock the boat too hard.

1132
01:00:20,498 --> 01:00:21,778
I think that's part of it also.

1133
01:00:21,778 --> 01:00:26,178
I mean, it's hard to, I have, I've criticized Bitcoin Core a lot, but, and then I
always

1134
01:00:26,178 --> 01:00:28,898
have to say, well, it's hard to argue with the results though, because it's been the

1135
01:00:28,898 --> 01:00:31,218
greatest performing asset in the history of capitalism.

1136
01:00:31,218 --> 01:00:36,338
And it's like, you know, it changed the world and it's made a lot of people angry,
but those

1137
01:00:36,338 --> 01:00:37,618
people couldn't do anything about it.

1138
01:00:37,618 --> 01:00:40,418
So that, I mean, it's hard to get better than that.

1139
01:00:40,418 --> 01:00:42,018
So I'd argue with the results.

1140
01:00:42,018 --> 01:00:43,538
That's also why it's very difficult.

1141
01:00:43,538 --> 01:00:48,818
I mean, you guys are kind of, I kind of, my heart goes out to you a little bit, like
anyone

1142
01:00:48,818 --> 01:00:53,378
who competes with Bitcoin at all is like, of course, in the trenches.

1143
01:00:53,938 --> 01:00:55,698
You're ice skating uphill, for sure.

1144
01:00:55,698 --> 01:01:00,658
You've got to be on coin market cap, looking at the number one, you know, it's kind
of

1145
01:01:00,658 --> 01:01:02,818
like demoralizing like day after day.

1146
01:01:03,218 --> 01:01:09,618
So it's funny because, I mean, I look at that and say like, yeah, would it be better
if

1147
01:01:09,618 --> 01:01:10,418
we were richer?

1148
01:01:10,418 --> 01:01:14,018
And, you know, the answer is like, well, sure, if the good, if I think we're the
good guys,

1149
01:01:14,018 --> 01:01:17,218
it'd be better if we had, you know, a thousand times more money than we do.

1150
01:01:17,218 --> 01:01:22,338
But the, when I think about some of these issues that you brought up, like, yeah,
you

1151
01:01:22,338 --> 01:01:25,938
know, a 10 gigabyte block, like who's going to validate my hundred gigabyte block in
a

1152
01:01:25,938 --> 01:01:26,818
hundred years, right?

1153
01:01:26,818 --> 01:01:32,258
Like that, I think commercially, if you really think about it, I think it's actually
a really

1154
01:01:32,258 --> 01:01:35,618
trivial thing to do for, you know, and everybody will bring up Moore's law.

1155
01:01:35,618 --> 01:01:36,818
That's your classic big blocker.

1156
01:01:36,818 --> 01:01:37,778
Like, what about Moore's law?

1157
01:01:37,778 --> 01:01:38,818
There's my magic thumb.

1158
01:01:39,698 --> 01:01:44,658
And then, but then the other thing, yeah, have you heard of Moore's law?

1159
01:01:44,658 --> 01:01:49,938
But the other thing is that aside from Moore's law, I think it's very easy to, you
know,

1160
01:01:49,938 --> 01:01:52,178
maybe you do it once a year, maybe you do it once a decade.

1161
01:01:52,178 --> 01:01:56,818
Maybe this is something that gets done where you just do like a cryptographic chain
commitment

1162
01:01:56,818 --> 01:02:01,538
and say, look, everyone unanimously agrees that the UTXO set and everybody's
holdings

1163
01:02:01,538 --> 01:02:03,538
and all this stuff is valid to X.

1164
01:02:03,538 --> 01:02:09,538
Here's the hash and nobody has to sync prior to this hash any longer in order to say
that

1165
01:02:09,538 --> 01:02:10,498
we're just moving forward.

1166
01:02:10,498 --> 01:02:14,898
And I think similar things have been proposed by probably Bitcoin Unlimited and
other people

1167
01:02:14,898 --> 01:02:16,258
because it is a basic problem.

1168
01:02:16,258 --> 01:02:17,378
Like, well, yeah, I don't know.

1169
01:02:17,378 --> 01:02:20,818
Can I sync a billion terabyte into a thing?

1170
01:02:20,818 --> 01:02:25,058
And the answer is probably no, but you could do a chain commitment at some interval
of

1171
01:02:25,058 --> 01:02:29,378
time and say everything was valid to this hash and we're moving forward from here.

1172
01:02:29,698 --> 01:02:31,938
And then that's essentially a solved problem, isn't it?

1173
01:02:33,458 --> 01:02:35,938
Well, I think that that idea is a good idea.

1174
01:02:35,938 --> 01:02:40,098
And partly it is done in Bitcoin Core where there is, there's something called the
Assume

1175
01:02:40,098 --> 01:02:45,138
UTXO and there's also Assume Valid where it checks a lot of stuff, but checking the
signature,

1176
01:02:45,138 --> 01:02:50,498
which is the most computationally expensive, it doesn't do for like many, many years
until

1177
01:02:50,498 --> 01:02:51,218
only recently.

1178
01:02:51,858 --> 01:02:54,738
And so that is a good idea.

1179
01:02:54,738 --> 01:02:59,058
And it's also, it would inherently happen with my Drivechain idea also, because the

1180
01:02:59,058 --> 01:03:05,858
way Drivechain works is basically if there's a six month reorg, it is toast anyway.

1181
01:03:05,858 --> 01:03:12,418
So you can kind of just say, well, if we put a UTXO commitment in the L2s, then you
don't

1182
01:03:12,418 --> 01:03:15,458
really need to sync the, because not for a different reason.

1183
01:03:15,458 --> 01:03:20,818
This is because the L2 is slightly, slightly worse, slightly insecure, but it's kind
of

1184
01:03:20,818 --> 01:03:24,978
like it has this additional vulnerability of being vulnerable to six month reorgs.

1185
01:03:24,978 --> 01:03:28,978
But because of that, because it's already completely toast if that happens, well,
then

1186
01:03:28,978 --> 01:03:35,298
now you might as well just only sync the last six and a half months because you're
like,

1187
01:03:35,298 --> 01:03:37,298
we're dead no matter what, if that's going.

1188
01:03:37,298 --> 01:03:40,658
So I agree completely with what you've said.

1189
01:03:40,658 --> 01:03:46,338
And I do think that it's sort of more an empirical question.

1190
01:03:46,338 --> 01:03:50,498
And I was trying to say before about the boogeyman, it has become like kind of like
a sacred

1191
01:03:50,498 --> 01:03:55,298
versus profane, like purity versus contamination, emotional decision.

1192
01:03:55,298 --> 01:04:00,418
And it doesn't have numbers behind it, which is what it would, in a sane world, you
would

1193
01:04:00,418 --> 01:04:02,818
just say, well, how much is too much?

1194
01:04:04,178 --> 01:04:10,818
And this and that, how much bandwidth would one, because one issue is the full
nodes,

1195
01:04:10,818 --> 01:04:14,898
perhaps they, you want to hide the physical location of the full node.

1196
01:04:15,938 --> 01:04:17,698
You know, some people might.

1197
01:04:17,698 --> 01:04:21,858
So the question is, well, doesn't that become much harder with all the bandwidth
that is

1198
01:04:21,858 --> 01:04:22,178
needed?

1199
01:04:22,978 --> 01:04:23,538
Yes.

1200
01:04:23,538 --> 01:04:25,298
But the question is, how much harder?

1201
01:04:25,298 --> 01:04:27,778
And, you know, what other software could we build that would maybe change?

1202
01:04:27,778 --> 01:04:30,418
We had like some VPN tunneling thing.

1203
01:04:30,418 --> 01:04:31,378
Maybe it wouldn't be so bad.

1204
01:04:31,378 --> 01:04:31,858
I don't know.

1205
01:04:31,858 --> 01:04:32,418
Maybe.

1206
01:04:32,418 --> 01:04:38,178
And then it's another part of the question is if internet speeds improve, if
Starlink

1207
01:04:38,178 --> 01:04:42,898
improves and if whatever, then maybe it becomes less and less of an issue.

1208
01:04:42,898 --> 01:04:46,498
So there should really be some kind of numerical thing behind it.

1209
01:04:46,498 --> 01:04:49,298
But I do, the small blockers have this sort of principle.

1210
01:04:50,178 --> 01:04:52,098
And again, I'm L1 small blocker.

1211
01:04:53,138 --> 01:04:58,498
I agree with the principle that we have to, someone has to take responsibility for
sort

1212
01:04:58,498 --> 01:05:02,258
of keeping this cost down because we don't, we just kind of don't know.

1213
01:05:02,258 --> 01:05:07,298
The cost is already kind of slowly increasing over time and technological and
economic growth

1214
01:05:07,298 --> 01:05:09,938
is bringing the cost down in a relative sense.

1215
01:05:09,938 --> 01:05:11,218
But there's like more and more bytes.

1216
01:05:12,178 --> 01:05:14,258
There's a thousand blocks a week.

1217
01:05:14,258 --> 01:05:19,698
So even at one megabyte, and now it's four megabytes, but even at one megabyte, a
thousand

1218
01:05:19,698 --> 01:05:23,538
a week would make it one gigabyte a week of block data.

1219
01:05:23,538 --> 01:05:26,418
And then the UTXO said, and then who knows what has to be stored.

1220
01:05:26,418 --> 01:05:32,978
But it's sort of an empirical question because you're like, well, you know, is it
really

1221
01:05:32,978 --> 01:05:38,978
so bad if the blocks are five gigabytes or one terabyte or some other amount?

1222
01:05:39,138 --> 01:05:41,378
And the answer is we don't really know.

1223
01:05:42,338 --> 01:05:49,538
And I think that the BTC is successful, not really because of picking the most
perfect

1224
01:05:49,538 --> 01:05:51,858
and serene block size limit.

1225
01:05:51,858 --> 01:05:58,658
But I think it is mostly just inertia of not having hard forked and the community
just

1226
01:05:58,658 --> 01:06:08,498
sticking together and people wanting to have a coordinated team and like a unified
opposition

1227
01:06:08,578 --> 01:06:10,178
to fiat.

1228
01:06:11,298 --> 01:06:14,578
I think those are the main things that have driven its success.

1229
01:06:14,578 --> 01:06:19,538
But of course, from my point of view, many of the advantages of the large block
world

1230
01:06:19,538 --> 01:06:20,978
are still available to BTC.

1231
01:06:20,978 --> 01:06:26,738
You know, of course, if we did this BIP300 thing, then you could have an L2 that
has

1232
01:06:26,738 --> 01:06:31,778
an unlimited block size, or you could really have what I would prefer is to have a
group

1233
01:06:31,778 --> 01:06:40,338
of 12 to 14 that have like maybe like a 25 megabyte block size that is scheduled to
grow

1234
01:06:40,338 --> 01:06:42,818
geometrically to like one gigabyte over five years.

1235
01:06:43,458 --> 01:06:47,538
And this would like kind of process all the world's transactions.

1236
01:06:48,258 --> 01:06:50,658
And there would be BTC transaction without any need for it.

1237
01:06:50,658 --> 01:06:58,418
So the reason why altcoins are lower on coin market cap than BTC is I don't think is
because

1238
01:06:59,058 --> 01:07:00,418
their ideas are wrong.

1239
01:07:01,378 --> 01:07:08,498
I think that is not necessarily evidence of that at all, because even if the idea is
really

1240
01:07:08,498 --> 01:07:10,658
good, everyone will steal it.

1241
01:07:10,658 --> 01:07:12,498
You know, if the idea is great, everyone will steal it.

1242
01:07:12,498 --> 01:07:14,338
So it's like you can't get any credit for your good ideas.

1243
01:07:14,338 --> 01:07:18,498
It's like who knows why, what's going on on coin market cap.

1244
01:07:18,498 --> 01:07:22,498
But I think it's either you flip in Bitcoin and you hit 8 billion users and you get
to

1245
01:07:22,498 --> 01:07:24,498
300 trillion or you don't.

1246
01:07:24,498 --> 01:07:29,698
And so I think when I look at coin market cap, I just see a percentage, the
likelihood

1247
01:07:29,778 --> 01:07:31,538
of getting to 300 trillion.

1248
01:07:32,258 --> 01:07:38,978
And so I don't, but I think it's a very good point.

1249
01:07:38,978 --> 01:07:43,618
Like there should, people should actually just test it out with the different block

1250
01:07:43,618 --> 01:07:45,218
sizes and see what happens.

1251
01:07:45,218 --> 01:07:48,578
They should not, I think it has become a purity thing.

1252
01:07:48,578 --> 01:07:53,058
That's always been my contention too, is that, you know, I think people like to
claim that

1253
01:07:53,058 --> 01:07:55,378
I'm some kind of like toxic big blocker or whatever.

1254
01:07:55,378 --> 01:07:59,618
And I'm always like, I can't imagine how I would have made somebody feel that I was

1255
01:07:59,618 --> 01:08:01,138
toxic in this conversation.

1256
01:08:01,138 --> 01:08:07,378
But the response that I give people is that even if BSV ends up being some kind of
failure,

1257
01:08:07,378 --> 01:08:11,058
like if the network is orphaned at some point in the future and everybody just has
to pack

1258
01:08:11,058 --> 01:08:16,658
up and go home, that ultimately it was a good faith project in the attempt to figure
out

1259
01:08:16,658 --> 01:08:18,418
the limits of Bitcoin, right?

1260
01:08:18,418 --> 01:08:19,778
That we didn't add anything to it.

1261
01:08:19,778 --> 01:08:22,098
We didn't say, okay, it's Bitcoin plus X.

1262
01:08:22,098 --> 01:08:27,698
It's literally just, all right, let's strip it down to like, what is Bitcoin?

1263
01:08:27,698 --> 01:08:30,978
And then let each of those little aspects of it be competitive.

1264
01:08:30,978 --> 01:08:33,058
Like you mentioned signature validation.

1265
01:08:33,058 --> 01:08:37,538
Signature validation has been the most difficult thing for us to scale in SVNode.

1266
01:08:37,538 --> 01:08:40,178
And it's been the most difficult thing in the development of TerraNode.

1267
01:08:40,178 --> 01:08:44,978
Now, TerraNode, you're probably not aware unless you've done your research on it.

1268
01:08:44,978 --> 01:08:50,018
And I wouldn't expect you to, but it's essentially a microservices node.

1269
01:08:50,018 --> 01:08:54,658
So you take everything that a node does, you break it into its own module, and then

1270
01:08:54,658 --> 01:08:59,058
each individual thing, so block building, various peer-to-peer protocols, and all
these

1271
01:08:59,058 --> 01:09:03,618
other things can be scaled individually and scaled horizontally, essentially using
more

1272
01:09:03,618 --> 01:09:04,178
hardware.

1273
01:09:04,178 --> 01:09:09,218
And what we've found is that by and large, it shakes out to something between three
and

1274
01:09:09,218 --> 01:09:13,858
four orders of magnitude more efficient than SVNode, which is already itself capable
of

1275
01:09:13,858 --> 01:09:16,658
probably 15,000 honest transactions per second.

1276
01:09:17,618 --> 01:09:23,858
And so we're targeting and have seen it in distributed consensus, the testnet stuff,

1277
01:09:23,858 --> 01:09:27,778
including geographic distribution, all this stuff, we can do about a million
transactions

1278
01:09:27,778 --> 01:09:33,138
a second of pay-to-public-key hash transactions sent around that network.

1279
01:09:33,698 --> 01:09:35,698
And so we're pretty pumped about it.

1280
01:09:35,698 --> 01:09:38,338
The most difficult thing was definitely signature validation.

1281
01:09:39,858 --> 01:09:45,538
But once you solve those things and you modularize them, and then you allow people
to compete,

1282
01:09:45,538 --> 01:09:49,458
much the way that people compete in hashing is sort of a separate venture in
Bitcoin.

1283
01:09:49,458 --> 01:09:55,298
Imagine people competing to be like, hey, I just want to be the best provider of
signature

1284
01:09:55,298 --> 01:10:00,418
validation service to the network, that that can be a specialized service in the
system.

1285
01:10:00,418 --> 01:10:08,498
So anyways, my idea or my notion is that I like to think of us as teaching
Bitcoiners

1286
01:10:08,498 --> 01:10:13,298
how to break Bitcoin into more and more competitive pieces, how to think more like a
capitalist,

1287
01:10:13,298 --> 01:10:16,818
think more like a business person in the competition of the system.

1288
01:10:16,818 --> 01:10:22,898
And that ultimately, if we fail systemically, like if BSV, the network, the ticker,
the coins,

1289
01:10:22,898 --> 01:10:27,378
whatever, if that thing is a failure, but there are broad lessons learned that apply

1290
01:10:27,378 --> 01:10:32,098
ultimately to a tool that brings Bitcoin to 8 billion people and allows it to be
robust

1291
01:10:32,098 --> 01:10:33,538
and useful and all those things.

1292
01:10:33,538 --> 01:10:36,338
And I know a lot of my BSV people are going to be like, oh my God, this is terrible
to

1293
01:10:36,338 --> 01:10:41,698
say, but I'd say that's a victory because the idea for me is I want to live in a
world

1294
01:10:42,258 --> 01:10:46,738
where there is a sound money system that everybody can use and that it's easy to use
and that

1295
01:10:46,738 --> 01:10:49,778
it gives people the freedoms that I think Bitcoin is capable of.

1296
01:10:49,778 --> 01:10:52,578
And so that's my basic value system coming into this.

1297
01:10:53,218 --> 01:10:57,858
And I don't know if there's a question in there, but I'm curious for your feedback.

1298
01:10:57,858 --> 01:11:01,058
You know, what what do you think of these ideas conceptually?

1299
01:11:02,178 --> 01:11:07,458
I think it's well, OK, so I remember that I remember Elon Musk saying the same thing

1300
01:11:07,458 --> 01:11:11,698
about Tesla, not, you know, we don't, you know, obviously he's very polarizing a
figure

1301
01:11:11,698 --> 01:11:13,458
and there's many good and bad aspects.

1302
01:11:14,338 --> 01:11:20,098
But he said something like he started Tesla just to accelerate the adoption of
electric

1303
01:11:20,098 --> 01:11:20,898
cars.

1304
01:11:20,898 --> 01:11:21,218
Sure.

1305
01:11:21,218 --> 01:11:24,978
And he thought that everyone and he like kind of open source.

1306
01:11:24,978 --> 01:11:29,538
I don't know exactly the details, but he basically tried to like give away the
blueprints,

1307
01:11:29,538 --> 01:11:30,898
even like at some point.

1308
01:11:30,898 --> 01:11:35,698
And and then I think it's a very interesting part of the story.

1309
01:11:35,698 --> 01:11:36,178
I don't know.

1310
01:11:36,178 --> 01:11:39,538
You can you can tell like maybe I don't know if this is all lies or if this is
clever,

1311
01:11:39,538 --> 01:11:42,818
sociopathic manipulation or earnest genius.

1312
01:11:42,818 --> 01:11:43,778
And I have no idea.

1313
01:11:43,778 --> 01:11:47,778
But it's kind of interesting that he had these pure motives, or at least he said he
did.

1314
01:11:48,418 --> 01:11:50,818
And then Tesla became like the number one.

1315
01:11:50,818 --> 01:11:53,138
Turned him into the richest man in the world.

1316
01:11:53,138 --> 01:12:02,658
Yeah, I wouldn't like I wouldn't knock that necessarily because you can see that on
paper

1317
01:12:02,658 --> 01:12:04,898
it does look like the altcoin.

1318
01:12:04,898 --> 01:12:11,298
You would think and this is what I always thought is that any altcoin will invent
something

1319
01:12:11,298 --> 01:12:11,778
useful.

1320
01:12:11,778 --> 01:12:15,698
It'll be open source and then everyone will say, OK, this is a great idea and we'll
just

1321
01:12:15,698 --> 01:12:17,298
add it to Bitcoin because Bitcoin is open source.

1322
01:12:17,298 --> 01:12:18,418
That was what everyone thought.

1323
01:12:18,418 --> 01:12:20,258
Like that was my assumption for sure.

1324
01:12:20,258 --> 01:12:20,898
Yeah.

1325
01:12:20,898 --> 01:12:27,058
And so but now you see the issue is not like the problem is that people can't agree
on

1326
01:12:27,058 --> 01:12:28,418
if something's a good idea or not.

1327
01:12:28,418 --> 01:12:34,418
You even have stuff like, you know, scaling that doesn't increase the L1 block size
or

1328
01:12:34,978 --> 01:12:38,578
privacy features, Zcash, Monero or whatever.

1329
01:12:39,298 --> 01:12:42,978
People get painted into these weird corners where, you know, Michael Saylor was
asked

1330
01:12:42,978 --> 01:12:44,498
by Peter McCormick about.

1331
01:12:46,018 --> 01:12:47,698
He's saying like there is no second best.

1332
01:12:47,698 --> 01:12:48,498
Bitcoin is perfect.

1333
01:12:48,498 --> 01:12:51,458
ETC is perfect the way it is.

1334
01:12:51,458 --> 01:12:57,858
And then he gets asked a very simple question like, oh, what about people who who do
want

1335
01:12:57,858 --> 01:12:59,378
more privacy in their transaction?

1336
01:12:59,378 --> 01:13:04,258
Bitcoin, the transaction is public on the blockchain and you send during the
receiver

1337
01:13:04,258 --> 01:13:07,538
and the amount or you can kind of go back and forth.

1338
01:13:07,538 --> 01:13:11,298
And if you pay someone from a large UTXO, they know that you own the whole UTXO.

1339
01:13:11,298 --> 01:13:16,658
Like what about people who are someone who's an activist or kind of, you know,
Edward Snowden

1340
01:13:16,658 --> 01:13:17,618
or whatever?

1341
01:13:17,618 --> 01:13:21,698
And then Michael Saylor was forced to say, oh, well, you know, if you want more
privacy,

1342
01:13:21,698 --> 01:13:22,658
maybe you need a Monero.

1343
01:13:22,658 --> 01:13:24,658
And then they clipped that maybe you need a Monero part.

1344
01:13:24,658 --> 01:13:27,138
And they made like a little video about it, which is they should.

1345
01:13:27,138 --> 01:13:29,618
It's exactly what they should do, Monero people.

1346
01:13:30,258 --> 01:13:32,418
But the point is.

1347
01:13:34,098 --> 01:13:36,578
People disagree on if something's a feature or a bug.

1348
01:13:37,218 --> 01:13:40,178
So that's the that's the weird part about it is.

1349
01:13:41,778 --> 01:13:46,178
This is what I was apparently very wrong about or I didn't expect, which is that you
would

1350
01:13:46,178 --> 01:13:50,578
think it objectively, it's obvious which things are better ideas.

1351
01:13:50,578 --> 01:13:55,298
But the block size limit is a perfect example, too, where some people say it kind of
depends

1352
01:13:55,298 --> 01:13:56,258
a little bit on who you are.

1353
01:13:56,258 --> 01:13:58,818
Like if you live in a country that has fast Internet.

1354
01:13:59,938 --> 01:14:01,058
You don't care as much about.

1355
01:14:01,058 --> 01:14:02,338
Yeah, it seems trivial, right?

1356
01:14:02,338 --> 01:14:04,578
Like, why not 10 megabytes BTC?

1357
01:14:04,578 --> 01:14:07,858
So and if you're very, very poor and you make a lot of transactions.

1358
01:14:08,498 --> 01:14:12,658
So like it was obvious to me why BitPay back in the day, why BitPay?

1359
01:14:12,658 --> 01:14:17,698
They were large blockers because when the blocks get full, people are trying to pay

1360
01:14:17,698 --> 01:14:19,938
stuff, buy things with Bitcoin.

1361
01:14:19,938 --> 01:14:25,938
Then they someone told me that their their customer service, when the blocks fill
up,

1362
01:14:26,018 --> 01:14:30,738
they get 40 times for zero, 40 times as many customer service calls.

1363
01:14:30,738 --> 01:14:33,298
And of course, it would try to pay and then it's not working.

1364
01:14:33,298 --> 01:14:34,738
And then it seems broken.

1365
01:14:34,738 --> 01:14:40,898
Yeah, so you could see how people disagree over what a feature is.

1366
01:14:40,898 --> 01:14:44,978
What really blows my mind is I think there are in my opinion, there are many the
whole

1367
01:14:44,978 --> 01:14:46,498
suite of soft forks.

1368
01:14:46,498 --> 01:14:51,218
But even you and I disagree about just that just a moment ago, but that all the soft
forks

1369
01:14:51,218 --> 01:14:56,418
proposed in BTC, to me, they're all opt in reversible.

1370
01:14:57,298 --> 01:14:58,578
They have no risk.

1371
01:14:58,659 --> 01:15:25,659
They don't do anything because they just take an opt in something that wasn't used.
And then only the people who choose to voluntarily upgrade use it for something
different. And this may result in more happy users, more transaction fees paid to
miners, a Bitcoin that maybe is less vulnerable to like, you have OpVault or
something, or better multisig, something where it's harder for people to come into
your house, and, you know, you're not going to be able to do anything.

1372
01:15:25,659 --> 01:15:55,459
Hold a gun to your head and say, give me all your Bitcoin, because of OpVault. So we
have all these amazing features that have no cost. And you soft fork to add OpNop,
but then you can always later say, I'm going to soft fork and we're going to ban
OpNop2 from ever being used in any block after this point. And then that just
deletes whatever you did before. So even if something bad happened, so in my view,
all these soft forks should just be merged, you know, like there's no controversy,
in my

1373
01:15:55,459 --> 01:16:17,219
opinion, about them at all. And yet, in the Bitcoin community, BTC community,
there's so much controversy that not a single one has really made any noticeably
noticeable progress. And then, you know, basically half an hour ago, you were saying
that the soft forks undermine the old nodes and other things like that. So that's, I
think that's an interesting piece of the puzzle, which is that

1374
01:16:17,219 --> 01:16:36,019
it's, it's political. I think that's my point is it's just like the, you know, it's
like Tesla will win, you know, Tesla will win in analogy, you know, so maybe it
won't be so bad. And I think the people who have some kind of purity of motive, at
least they have something that they are measuring their results against. So at least
they have some kind of criteria, for sure.

1375
01:16:36,019 --> 01:17:00,259
But it really is, it reminds me of the, you know, the people who wear a mask,
because it shows that they're a good person. And that means all these political
things, or your red hat, or your Ukraine flag on your social media profile pic, you
know, it's like, all these things are like, okay, here's this thing that I'm
standing for. And right now, it's all the people with the no cat, because everybody
doesn't want to bring back up cat for for BTC,

1376
01:17:00,259 --> 01:17:30,179
one of the silliest ones of all, because it was active in Bitcoin. And right. So we
know it's not dangerous. It's sort of like, it's very short. And it's just putting
two stack elements next to each other. And right. Yeah, it's just crazy. I don't
know. This part of it with up cat is because of these, some of these other people,
Udi and whatever, they made like a big marketing show about it. And but you know,
it's easy to say it's because of that. The real reason is that none of these, none
of the softworks have made

1377
01:17:30,179 --> 01:18:00,099
it further. Right? In the process, the process doesn't exist. And I do think it is
kind of a superstition, like how to get the soft fork. No one really knows. There's
no there's no evidence to suggest that it's because of the taproot wizards, JPEG,
like bonanza, that OP_CAT has been harmed or helped by that. I think it's just all of
these ideas are good. All of them are good enough to be merged.

1378
01:18:00,659 --> 01:18:29,619
They're all harmless and reversible. They should all be merged. And it's just what
has really happened is because of what happened with SegWit in 2017. Yeah. There has
been this political anxiety over the soft fork. And you know who it was, it's the
guy that we're not supposed to talk about, because I was listening to some of your
old episodes. And it's because the the G man, yeah, he was the one who did taproot
in the taproot email. So if he sends an email, then it's fine. But

1379
01:18:29,779 --> 01:18:59,139
correct. But then otherwise, it's dead, do a so, you know, whatever, right? Like,
so, so I bring all that up, because, you know, you're saying, Oh, maybe we'll do all
this work to make BSV scale, and we'll prove it to the world. And then we'll get
that we'll have nothing to show for it. Yeah, because it'll just be copied by
everyone, maybe. And but I think that's the right reason to do something. And I
don't know, like, I, it's, I think it's, it's possible, because if if BTC goes down,
it will just be

1380
01:18:59,139 --> 01:19:25,659
because all the tools are laid out. And I, in fact, I wrote about this in the
precedence ossification post. And at the end, I wrote about the the Easter Island
heads, I borrowed it from a book, I quoted a book that that they wrote about it, but
I applied it to Bitcoin. So I don't know if you're aware of this, but, you know,
it's Easter Island heads on that one island. And there are all these statues that
are all the same in there. And actually, the statue has like a huge torso that's
like, very, the statues are

1381
01:19:26,219 --> 01:19:30,779
well aware, the Rapa Nui, the whole thing. I'm super into it. Yeah.

1382
01:19:30,779 --> 01:19:39,579
And so what, it's hard to, there's a prevailing theory is that half of these half of
these statues

1383
01:19:40,539 --> 01:19:46,299
are like, on route to their intended destination. So the archaeologists think that
they ramped up.

1384
01:19:47,819 --> 01:19:52,219
Because this civilization used to have, there used to be many more people on the
island, and they had

1385
01:19:52,219 --> 01:19:57,899
much like division of labor and like many people, and then the population crashed.
And only a few

1386
01:19:57,899 --> 01:20:06,779
people survived. And it's thought that the society went into horrible decline. And
they ratcheted up

1387
01:20:06,779 --> 01:20:12,779
the statue production, as they were all dying. And in fact, they made more and more
statues. And

1388
01:20:13,979 --> 01:20:20,379
it's hard, who knows, you know, because of the way this type of thing is done. But
the prevailing

1389
01:20:20,379 --> 01:20:26,379
theory is that the civilization started experiencing problems. And they thought,

1390
01:20:26,379 --> 01:20:31,339
what we need to do is make more statues to appease the gods, you know, because the
forests aren't

1391
01:20:31,339 --> 01:20:35,979
growing, the plants, the food isn't growing. So they start cutting down the food,
and it causes

1392
01:20:35,979 --> 01:20:40,059
ecological disaster. And they make more and more and more, they double down on the
statues.

1393
01:20:40,939 --> 01:20:46,539
So, whereas if maybe they just done nothing, or fewer statues, or no statues, they
would have

1394
01:20:46,539 --> 01:20:51,979
survived. But instead, that, you know, like, a huge percent, I don't know the exact
percentage,

1395
01:20:51,979 --> 01:20:57,499
but like more than 90% of them all died. Giant decline. And so that's, but that's
what you're,

1396
01:20:57,499 --> 01:21:03,179
that's what you're betting on. If you, if you own BSV, you're betting that it's
Easter Island

1397
01:21:03,179 --> 01:21:10,299
statue world in BTC, where it will just, we'll just keep making these statues, or
this will keep

1398
01:21:10,299 --> 01:21:17,339
doing the irrelevant thing. The thing that is so stupid, you know, which is like,
and this,

1399
01:21:17,339 --> 01:21:22,619
basically, Michael Saylor is on the, he's the, he's the captain of the team to make
BSV a success.

1400
01:21:22,619 --> 01:21:29,419
Right. Well, in a weird way. There you go. Easter Island head, like. Yeah, no, for
real.

1401
01:21:31,419 --> 01:21:35,819
It's not, it's not the worst bet in the world. It's, it's, actually, I think that
really defines

1402
01:21:35,819 --> 01:21:42,299
it really well, as I think the economics of BTC are so bad, especially as you
extrapolate them out

1403
01:21:42,299 --> 01:21:48,139
over, you know, incoming halvenings and all, you know, just the math that goes into
it implies that

1404
01:21:48,139 --> 01:21:52,459
there's a security budget problem. There's, you know, various big problems that
aren't being

1405
01:21:52,459 --> 01:21:59,259
addressed because of the rhetoric. And I think at some point, if Bitcoin was ever a
good idea,

1406
01:21:59,259 --> 01:22:04,219
then something like BSV stands to take that mantle because it's like, well, we
really just tried to

1407
01:22:04,219 --> 01:22:09,179
be the most Bitcoin, Bitcoin. And while everybody else was trying to engineer some
other outcome,

1408
01:22:09,819 --> 01:22:14,779
we continued to try to scale this idea to be, to be a good thing for as many people
as possible.

1409
01:22:15,499 --> 01:22:20,699
And so, you know, and that's something I would own forever. Like, again, people tell
me all the

1410
01:22:20,699 --> 01:22:23,979
time that, oh, Kurt, you're just, you're going to wear this like an albatross for
the rest of

1411
01:22:23,979 --> 01:22:29,499
your career. And I'm like, I'm super proud of everything that we've done. And, you
know,

1412
01:22:29,659 --> 01:22:37,259
like I don't care. I'm happy to say like, yeah, I boldly stood against most people's
ideas to

1413
01:22:37,259 --> 01:22:41,419
fight for what I thought was good. I mean, I hate to bring up Craig because, but I
think that's part

1414
01:22:41,419 --> 01:22:45,739
of it is that, you know, he's like suing people and it's very popular. And so then
people think

1415
01:22:45,739 --> 01:22:51,339
like, why, you know, I do think, I think that's, you know, that's a part of the.
It's the social

1416
01:22:51,339 --> 01:22:56,779
part, which again is, it's tangential. I treat it mostly as separate, but it's also
fair. Like

1417
01:22:56,779 --> 01:23:01,979
if your culture, if your culture has some kind of thing about it that is
problematic, it's like

1418
01:23:01,979 --> 01:23:06,139
the same thing talking about Donald Trump. You can be like, yeah, the department of
government

1419
01:23:06,139 --> 01:23:10,779
efficiency is a really good idea, but I also don't like, you know, whatever, right?
I don't like

1420
01:23:10,779 --> 01:23:14,939
tariffs or I don't like some other political thing, you know? And so, you know,
you're

1421
01:23:14,939 --> 01:23:20,619
unfortunately bundled up into groups like that. But I think, so we've been going
about an hour

1422
01:23:20,619 --> 01:23:25,099
and a half and it's funny because I think the thing that has stood out is we agree a
lot more

1423
01:23:25,099 --> 01:23:32,379
than I assumed we would. The key thing is the cost of the full node is unbounded
with the

1424
01:23:32,379 --> 01:23:37,499
unlimited block size. So if you could just show that even if it's really, really,
really, really

1425
01:23:37,499 --> 01:23:41,899
big, it won't actually cost that much and we'll still be able to download the blocks
and stuff.

1426
01:23:41,899 --> 01:23:47,019
So I think that would be like the maximizing the chances of success. And of course,
you know,

1427
01:23:47,019 --> 01:23:53,019
obviously you want to amplify the most ridiculous people in BTC world, and then it
will become,

1428
01:23:53,979 --> 01:24:01,179
you know, but who knows the, because I do see like BTC is just like one,

1429
01:24:02,299 --> 01:24:07,899
it's just like one BIP300 away from all the altcoin technology being as an optional
L2 of

1430
01:24:07,899 --> 01:24:12,939
BTC. And then it's like, what would stop it then? Because it can scale to 8 billion
people and have

1431
01:24:12,939 --> 01:24:21,019
Zcash privacy. And, but notice that what objective progress has BIP300 really made

1432
01:24:21,019 --> 01:24:24,939
like over the last 10 years? It's very hard to say. I mean, I have made all the
software

1433
01:24:24,939 --> 01:24:29,419
and I've answered people's questions, but it's kind of like they have, it's this
thing is sitting

1434
01:24:29,419 --> 01:24:33,659
right in front of them and then they're not going for that. Instead, they want to
double down. This

1435
01:24:33,659 --> 01:24:38,299
is the Easter Island thing. They're doubling down on covenants, which is basically
lightning 2.0.

1436
01:24:38,299 --> 01:24:43,179
They say we want, well, we want to be able to open more lightning channels. So now
we've realized

1437
01:24:43,179 --> 01:24:48,459
that opening lightning channels is too hard and there's not enough space. So we want
to like open

1438
01:24:48,459 --> 01:24:54,139
them in like a weird tree that can time out sometimes. And so now, and that's the
big thing.

1439
01:24:54,139 --> 01:25:01,099
And of course, more conferences are needed and more papers. More podcast
subscriptions. That's

1440
01:25:01,099 --> 01:25:06,699
what we need. So, you know, it's funny. And to answer your question about nodes, I
can see Alex

1441
01:25:06,699 --> 01:25:13,979
Favell, one of our frequent listeners responding and saying like, yeah, cost is a
concern, but it

1442
01:25:13,979 --> 01:25:18,299
doesn't address ROI. Like if you're making revenue based on that cost, like if you
have a

1443
01:25:18,299 --> 01:25:23,659
terabyte size block, terabyte size block has a lot of fees in it. It allows me to
then, you know,

1444
01:25:23,659 --> 01:25:29,419
hey, here's my archival node. I've got it backed up in 12 places. Like it can be
your seed node and

1445
01:25:29,419 --> 01:25:35,099
you know, whatever. There's a lot of things, but then, so I see that as a solved
problem

1446
01:25:35,099 --> 01:25:41,259
because if it's bigger, if the blocks are that big, they are full of money and we
have a lot of

1447
01:25:41,259 --> 01:25:46,379
money to either engineer a solution or just economically say, you know what, if it
costs me

1448
01:25:46,379 --> 01:25:53,259
10 million bucks to sink another node, fine. It is a projection how much revenue
will come in,

1449
01:25:53,259 --> 01:25:59,339
what the costs will be. If someone wants to sink a node, they will not necessarily
get,

1450
01:25:59,339 --> 01:26:05,659
so the only one who gets the revenue is the one who mines the block. And then even
the miners,

1451
01:26:05,659 --> 01:26:10,139
even if we live in a world where only miners are nodes, which I know is the
preferred BSV

1452
01:26:10,139 --> 01:26:16,379
phrase today. It's the basic premise. So like in the future, those miners will have
to download

1453
01:26:16,379 --> 01:26:21,019
the historical blocks in order to know how to mine. So it's a cost that they'll have
to pay

1454
01:26:21,019 --> 01:26:26,299
all those past blocks they're not getting the revenue for. So it's still a
projection as to

1455
01:26:26,299 --> 01:26:32,619
like whether or not a line, one line on a graph crosses another line. And the fact,
I think what,

1456
01:26:33,259 --> 01:26:37,659
I do think it's like a programmer thing also, where programmers like stuff to be
like very

1457
01:26:37,659 --> 01:26:42,539
tightly, like artistically spelled out, but when it's unlimited, it's kind of like,
well,

1458
01:26:42,539 --> 01:26:46,539
then what happens if it hits infinity? Then see, that's when it does become like
kind of like a

1459
01:26:46,539 --> 01:26:51,019
boogeyman. But that is kind of still the heart of the matter though, which is that
the costs will

1460
01:26:51,019 --> 01:26:55,899
go up and up and up. The cost is paid to people who do not necessarily receive the
revenue.

1461
01:26:55,899 --> 01:27:03,099
Is that people who have to sink the node later. So you can say certain this time
window and

1462
01:27:03,099 --> 01:27:07,259
checkpoints. And that's where I think it's a good thing, because when you actually
have the

1463
01:27:07,259 --> 01:27:12,459
working piece of software and you say, here's our demo software, or here's our
actual real life

1464
01:27:12,459 --> 01:27:21,099
demonstration demo either way, you say here is what it cost us in 2025. And here
we're pushing

1465
01:27:21,099 --> 01:27:26,059
the envelope every day. So this is what we think we could do like two months from
now, we'll change

1466
01:27:26,059 --> 01:27:31,819
the software, we'll parallelize everything or we can get it to run. Can you imagine
if you like an

1467
01:27:31,819 --> 01:27:37,499
NVIDIA thing that like verify signatures or something? I don't think that's, but you
have

1468
01:27:37,499 --> 01:27:43,179
no idea. For what it's worth, I think that's part of the solution. A specialized
chip that

1469
01:27:43,179 --> 01:27:49,339
does like an ASIC for signature validation. And then it turns out that that's less
expensive than

1470
01:27:49,339 --> 01:27:54,939
people thought. And you can now, thanks to the hardware world, you can do 10,000x
what you

1471
01:27:54,939 --> 01:27:59,099
thought. The difference between the graphics, the CPU's graphics and the GPU's
graphics is like

1472
01:27:59,499 --> 01:28:06,459
I don't know, but it's really, really high. It's a big jump. Yeah. Yeah. So in that
case,

1473
01:28:06,459 --> 01:28:11,179
it would all become more concrete. I think part of the unlimited thing would make
people just kind

1474
01:28:11,179 --> 01:28:16,539
of shrug and say, well, then I don't know what to think about it. And so then I
don't know what

1475
01:28:16,539 --> 01:28:21,899
my conclusion is. It sounds fanciful. Yeah. And I get that. I think it's very
interesting the way,

1476
01:28:21,899 --> 01:28:28,059
you know, there was like BTC and then there was Bitcoin Cash, BCH, BTC. And it was
kind of like,

1477
01:28:28,059 --> 01:28:33,419
Bitcoin Cash is the large block version. And then Bitcoin BTC is a small block
version.

1478
01:28:33,419 --> 01:28:39,419
They had a very clear brand positioning. Yeah. And then when Bitcoin SV came out, I
kind of like,

1479
01:28:39,419 --> 01:28:44,539
I kind of shed a tear for BCH, you know, I kind of had like, because now they had,
you know,

1480
01:28:44,539 --> 01:28:51,179
those people who had to say, like, you know, like, it's like being crushed by like a
military

1481
01:28:51,179 --> 01:28:55,499
pincer move or something. Well, exactly. So it's kind of like, it's the worst place
to be.

1482
01:28:55,979 --> 01:29:00,219
They're so crazy. They're small blockers. Oh, but then why not have really, really,

1483
01:29:00,219 --> 01:29:03,579
really big blocks? And then they're like, well, sometimes the block size can be too
big.

1484
01:29:04,139 --> 01:29:06,699
Yeah. And it's kind of like, oh, no, like Goldilocks.

1485
01:29:07,739 --> 01:29:10,939
Goldilocks moderate is never a good value proposition.

1486
01:29:12,059 --> 01:29:14,539
Well, it's kind of like, yeah, we have picked the perfect

1487
01:29:15,259 --> 01:29:18,299
thing based on what, like, is there a formula for that? Oh, yeah. Okay.

1488
01:29:19,419 --> 01:29:23,659
Well, and so that's the thing. So let me address some of those points. Like, again,
I think when

1489
01:29:24,379 --> 01:29:29,579
we talk about network design, engineering, topology, and these kind of things, like,

1490
01:29:29,579 --> 01:29:34,219
first of all, you can just download the UTXO set and headers and just mine with
that, which is

1491
01:29:34,219 --> 01:29:38,619
itself, you know, some infinitesimally small variation of running the full client.

1492
01:29:39,259 --> 01:29:42,619
Secondarily, there's SPV, but that's the free riding off the full node.

1493
01:29:42,619 --> 01:29:47,339
A bit, but then there's also this notion that, okay, so why are we spinning up a
full node?

1494
01:29:47,339 --> 01:29:51,019
Like, let's say you're a commercial operation, you're trying to run a stable coin on
BSV,

1495
01:29:51,579 --> 01:29:55,499
and let's say it's 30 years in the future and it's a million terabyte blockchain.

1496
01:29:56,059 --> 01:30:00,619
So, okay. So now what you need is you need the headers, you need the UTXO set, and
then you need

1497
01:30:00,619 --> 01:30:05,739
an overlay service that just listens for your token, just the things that you care
about.

1498
01:30:05,739 --> 01:30:11,259
And so you run essentially a light client variation that connects to the, you know,

1499
01:30:11,259 --> 01:30:16,379
uses Merkle proofs to prove, okay, here's where the token's valid. Your sidechain
essentially

1500
01:30:16,379 --> 01:30:21,499
has its own, or your overlay network rather, which is similar to a sidechain, has
its own

1501
01:30:21,499 --> 01:30:25,659
back to Genesis problem, but you're solving that through your own agency and your
own overlay

1502
01:30:25,659 --> 01:30:31,579
network. And I think for the purposes of that, you're still like, you're treating
the center

1503
01:30:31,579 --> 01:30:37,179
of the network, like your big archival mining operation, which is itself like an AWS
style

1504
01:30:37,179 --> 01:30:41,819
company. And then you're running your company, which is just like any other, you
know,

1505
01:30:41,819 --> 01:30:45,979
commercial services application. Like it's, maybe you rent cloud compute, maybe you
got some

1506
01:30:45,979 --> 01:30:51,179
on-prem stuff. Like it's a pretty big operation, but it doesn't need to be Goliath.
Like you don't

1507
01:30:51,179 --> 01:30:57,579
need to ingest that whole blockchain. And so I still see that as not really a
problem because,

1508
01:30:58,139 --> 01:31:03,419
you know, somebody like Amazon, let's say Amazon right now decided, okay, maybe we
want to start a

1509
01:31:03,419 --> 01:31:08,299
BSV node and use it for whatever. Like AWS would not have a problem syncing the
blockchain or

1510
01:31:08,299 --> 01:31:13,019
whatever. I don't think they'd have a problem doing it in 20 years either. And so I
kind of

1511
01:31:13,019 --> 01:31:19,899
see that as at the level that somebody would want to be a full mining, full
validating archival

1512
01:31:19,899 --> 01:31:24,939
node. I think the companies that can, won't actually see that as a limitation. And I
don't

1513
01:31:24,939 --> 01:31:30,859
think it's necessarily bad if there's only, you know, 12 or 20 or 50 companies on
earth that can

1514
01:31:30,859 --> 01:31:35,259
run the full archival copy, because as long as they're geographically distributed,
the only

1515
01:31:35,259 --> 01:31:40,219
thing that we're trying to actually solve for is security. Like, you know,
decentralization

1516
01:31:40,219 --> 01:31:46,379
is not a goal in and of itself. Decentralization is a leg under security, right? And
so for that

1517
01:31:46,379 --> 01:31:52,539
reason, I just don't see why an unbounded block size would ever really be a problem

1518
01:31:53,899 --> 01:31:59,339
ever. I just don't see it. You've given an example where it's so expensive that only
20 or 30 people

1519
01:32:00,139 --> 01:32:06,299
run the full node. But I mean, cost, this is based on a kind of an explanation, you
know,

1520
01:32:06,299 --> 01:32:10,299
there's like this whole worldview behind it. Like maybe it would be so expensive
that zero people

1521
01:32:10,299 --> 01:32:16,139
can run, or it could be some other number, you know, it could be any number. So I
don't, I think

1522
01:32:16,139 --> 01:32:23,579
that is, what you're really saying is we can confidently project that the cost will
not be

1523
01:32:23,659 --> 01:32:29,819
above a certain, and that also there are these other considerations about can I hide
the physical

1524
01:32:29,819 --> 01:32:33,819
location of the node, you know, behind Tor and stuff. I don't want to like make it
about Tor,

1525
01:32:33,819 --> 01:32:39,259
but I do want, I do think people, there's more to cost than just adding up a bunch
of stuff,

1526
01:32:39,259 --> 01:32:44,059
like on Amazon and shipping to your house. There's like the ongoing cost and there's
whatever. So

1527
01:32:44,059 --> 01:32:50,699
there's the cost is a multi-dimensional thing. And the cost could be any number.
It's not like

1528
01:32:50,699 --> 01:32:56,219
it has to stop at 30, you know, like it could be so, it could be 29 or it could be
some other

1529
01:32:56,219 --> 01:33:06,939
number. So with respect to like only having a subset of the data, you can kind of do
this in

1530
01:33:06,939 --> 01:33:12,219
reverse with BTC, you know, where you can say the core is we have SPV and then you
have the cores,

1531
01:33:12,219 --> 01:33:18,059
the one megabyte, now four megabyte core. And then you, if you want anything else,

1532
01:33:18,619 --> 01:33:22,299
and this is kind of how BIP300 works, where it's like, you want, you have a whole
nother

1533
01:33:22,299 --> 01:33:29,579
block somewhere else that could be its own size of whatever you want. And you hash
that. And then

1534
01:33:29,579 --> 01:33:33,739
you have another Merkle tree, you hash all that. And this just ends up as 32 bytes

1535
01:33:34,859 --> 01:33:43,579
in the BTC blockchain. So with those 32 bytes, you have a sort of unlimited size,
like overlay,

1536
01:33:43,579 --> 01:33:48,939
like in reverse, instead of a subset, it's a super set. So you could do that. And
then

1537
01:33:48,939 --> 01:33:56,779
this is the question of which bytes are mandatory, but that is why this is the core
problem of BSV,

1538
01:33:56,779 --> 01:34:02,939
which is that all the bytes are mandatory for the full node, because it's part of
the rules

1539
01:34:03,659 --> 01:34:07,259
that you have to check every transaction for being invalid or double spend.

1540
01:34:07,819 --> 01:34:13,499
This is like part of the software and the white paper. And it's also, if a node
requests a block,

1541
01:34:15,339 --> 01:34:21,019
if someone says, here's the blockchain, and I need block, you know, 700,002. And if
it can't

1542
01:34:21,019 --> 01:34:27,339
find the block, then it will just say, well, then I'll just assume it's invalid. And
we'll say,

1543
01:34:27,339 --> 01:34:31,819
and if you say that you have that block, and you say the hash is this and the header
is this,

1544
01:34:31,819 --> 01:34:36,299
but then it won't give you the block, then the nodes will ban each other and hate
each other.

1545
01:34:37,339 --> 01:34:42,619
And so there is a very good reason for that, which is because the whole point of the
node

1546
01:34:42,619 --> 01:34:48,619
in the first place is that you have something that you know has been cleansed of
double spends.

1547
01:34:49,499 --> 01:34:53,819
And so that is the heart of the matter, which is that the node is defined as the
thing that

1548
01:34:53,819 --> 01:34:59,739
downloads all the... This is where the BSV people equivocate on this point. This is
very weak,

1549
01:34:59,739 --> 01:35:05,339
because they say, in one sense, the block size is unlimited and we can put whatever
we want.

1550
01:35:05,339 --> 01:35:09,739
And then they say, ah, we're not responsible for that because of SPD. But that's
having it

1551
01:35:09,739 --> 01:35:16,859
the wrong way around. So here's how I see it. I see it as, you know, if block
700,002 was mined,

1552
01:35:17,499 --> 01:35:21,819
we can see who mined it. We have the header. We have the Merkle proof. We have, you
know,

1553
01:35:21,819 --> 01:35:26,699
the fact that it was done with valid proof of work. I see that as a done deal. Like
everything

1554
01:35:26,699 --> 01:35:31,019
that should have been done was done at some point, and people have been building
from it.

1555
01:35:31,019 --> 01:35:35,099
Like, I think that that's the actual signaling mechanism of proof of work. I don't
think proof

1556
01:35:35,099 --> 01:35:40,379
of work is about, you know, the security budget and it has to be X amount more than
the price and

1557
01:35:40,379 --> 01:35:45,419
blah, blah, blah. I think that's a little part of it. But I think what it actually
is, is it's

1558
01:35:45,419 --> 01:35:51,979
essentially your stamp of promise at any given point to say like, you know what?
Somebody worked

1559
01:35:51,979 --> 01:35:56,379
really hard and put a lot of money into mining that damn block and nobody orphaned
them. And

1560
01:35:56,379 --> 01:36:02,139
nobody said it should be orphaned. Nobody signaled that it was bad in any way at
that point or any

1561
01:36:02,139 --> 01:36:05,739
point after it. Like people kept building and building and building on it. And so
for all

1562
01:36:05,739 --> 01:36:11,019
intents and purposes, I really just think that that doesn't matter. I think it's a
null point

1563
01:36:11,019 --> 01:36:15,259
that you can pick whatever block is the oldest block that you can grab and just go
from there.

1564
01:36:15,259 --> 01:36:20,219
Because if that's not the case, I don't see a reason why Satoshi would have used
like Merkle

1565
01:36:20,219 --> 01:36:25,339
trees at all or proof of work at all if that was not, there's my magic thumb again,
if that was

1566
01:36:25,339 --> 01:36:32,539
not supposed to be like what that indicated. It just seems very obvious to me. Well,
it's in the

1567
01:36:32,539 --> 01:36:39,819
code for BTC and Bitcoin SV, last time I checked, that if the block is requested and
it can't be

1568
01:36:39,819 --> 01:36:43,659
found, it's marked as invalid. Because it's only going to mark the ones as valid
that have been

1569
01:36:43,659 --> 01:36:50,059
purged of double spends. So you could, it's plausible that someone would design a
different

1570
01:36:50,059 --> 01:36:58,939
system that is entirely proof of work driven. And it says, we make no, we pass no
judgment on

1571
01:37:00,059 --> 01:37:04,219
what this block contains. It may contain double spends, it may contain invalid
transactions,

1572
01:37:04,219 --> 01:37:10,299
it may contain anything, it may contain nothing. But we know that the hash, we know
that it contains

1573
01:37:10,299 --> 01:37:16,459
some stuff that hashes to this Merkle tree root, even though we don't know what it
is,

1574
01:37:17,099 --> 01:37:22,859
but something does. So, or someone said that something did at some point. So you
could do that.

1575
01:37:23,899 --> 01:37:27,979
But part of my argument, though, is that if that's the attitude you're going to
take,

1576
01:37:27,979 --> 01:37:32,619
you can already do that on BTC. You can just say, here's the part that's mandatory.

1577
01:37:33,259 --> 01:37:40,219
And here is the part that no one is checking, which would be like open timestamps.
Peter Todd,

1578
01:37:40,219 --> 01:37:45,179
a chief hater of my project, BIP300, but he created this open timestamp. And many
other

1579
01:37:45,179 --> 01:37:49,339
people have done this. This is often people's like first wallet project is to like,
put an

1580
01:37:49,339 --> 01:37:54,779
OP return in the blockchain or something. So it's a lot of fun. But you put the OP
return in for 32

1581
01:37:54,779 --> 01:37:58,939
bytes, but you don't put in whatever you were going to put on. So you could put like
the Lord

1582
01:37:58,939 --> 01:38:05,259
of the Rings video, extended edition file, you hash it to one hash, you put the hash
on the

1583
01:38:05,259 --> 01:38:08,859
Bitcoin blockchain, or people put their marriage vows, as I'm sure you've seen
people do this.

1584
01:38:09,819 --> 01:38:15,339
They put something on the BTC blockchain. But they're not putting the actual thing
on.

1585
01:38:16,299 --> 01:38:22,059
In contrast, like the taproot wizards and the inscribers and the ordinal people,

1586
01:38:22,699 --> 01:38:29,179
they really are trying to put stuff on. That's for some reason newer. I don't know
why it evolved in

1587
01:38:29,179 --> 01:38:34,299
that in this chaotic direction. So it's actually kind of, it's stored in the witness
data,

1588
01:38:34,299 --> 01:38:40,779
which is pruneable. I don't actually see that as deep Bitcoin data. I see it as a
little tangential

1589
01:38:40,779 --> 01:38:43,819
because you can just prune it like a lot of other things.

1590
01:38:43,819 --> 01:38:47,819
Yeah. Well, thanks to segregated witness, they started to make, as you know, they
started

1591
01:38:47,819 --> 01:38:51,739
creating this kind of Frankenstein's monster of things where now there's different
blocks.

1592
01:38:51,739 --> 01:38:55,979
There's now different block headers. And if you talk to an old node, they'll give
you a different

1593
01:38:55,979 --> 01:39:03,819
block and there's a witness TXID. So there are now multiple Merkle roots actually.
And the old

1594
01:39:03,819 --> 01:39:09,099
system is kind of run like in parallel. It's like an emulator, like an N64 emulator
or something.

1595
01:39:09,099 --> 01:39:09,659
Exactly.

1596
01:39:09,659 --> 01:39:11,739
So it's kind of strange in that way.

1597
01:39:11,739 --> 01:39:13,819
It bolsters my malware point.

1598
01:39:13,819 --> 01:39:20,379
It's also, I mean, I think SegWit in particular is a very unusually weird soft fork.
For one

1599
01:39:20,379 --> 01:39:25,419
thing, it was a mandatory block size increase from one megabyte to four megabytes.
So the other

1600
01:39:25,419 --> 01:39:32,379
thing though, is it does melt down the current block, like header, the block
structure, the C

1601
01:39:32,379 --> 01:39:39,659
block and make something else that is like a one-to-one mapping between the two. And
then

1602
01:39:39,659 --> 01:39:43,979
if you talk to a node, it'll tell you first if it's a SegWit node or not. If it's a
SegWit

1603
01:39:43,979 --> 01:39:51,099
node, it gives you a different block than the old node gets. And in these ways, it
is way,

1604
01:39:51,099 --> 01:39:57,579
way, way more invasive than taking the OpNop2 that was always intended to be used
for new

1605
01:39:57,579 --> 01:39:58,939
op code that someone might want.

1606
01:39:59,347 --> 01:40:13,347
And voluntarily saying the script interpreter will fail if it does not follow the
CLTV rules, which is like a tiny, tiny, tiny, like very narrowly defined thing that
is totally in its one little scope that you could easily reverse by getting rid of
the OpNop2.

1607
01:40:13,347 --> 01:40:21,347
And I do think SegWit kind of maybe ruined the brand of the soft fork slightly by
being so weird.

1608
01:40:22,347 --> 01:40:37,347
And that is why now people can't think of it. And I think it also greatly
exacerbated the scaling war because this is just my historical recollection of what
happened, having attended Scaling 2 in Hong Kong, December 2015.

1609
01:40:38,347 --> 01:40:47,347
It was kind of like, oh, can we have a hard fork to increase the block size? Oh, no,
we can't because we don't want that. Hard forks are terrible and block size
increases are terrible.

1610
01:40:48,347 --> 01:40:59,347
And then, you know, Peter Wheel, he gave a talk, and I don't think he intended
anything malicious with this talk because he's a perfectly sweet guy and a genius.

1611
01:40:59,347 --> 01:41:05,347
But he was like, we can increase the block size with a soft fork.

1612
01:41:06,347 --> 01:41:13,347
And I think a lot of this technically blew a small number of people's minds who knew
what he was talking about.

1613
01:41:13,347 --> 01:41:20,347
But I think other people were like, we were just been told block size, soft, hard
fork needed to increase the block over and over again.

1614
01:41:20,347 --> 01:41:23,347
We were just told all this stuff, and now we're being told something else.

1615
01:41:23,347 --> 01:41:27,347
It kind of seems like, oh, it's OK when you do it. When we want to do it, we can't
do it.

1616
01:41:27,347 --> 01:41:29,347
I think it created all this confusion.

1617
01:41:29,347 --> 01:41:35,347
So the SegWit soft fork, in particular, is one of the most bizarre, possibly.

1618
01:41:35,347 --> 01:41:40,347
I mean, it's probably of all of them, all the ones in Bitcoin and maybe of all that
anyone has ever heard of.

1619
01:41:40,347 --> 01:41:43,347
I don't know. It's just kind of very strange.

1620
01:41:43,347 --> 01:41:45,347
It created some permanent scars, for sure.

1621
01:41:45,347 --> 01:41:50,347
And I mean, it's still a problem in a lot of ways on all variants, too.

1622
01:41:50,347 --> 01:41:52,347
It's the Bitcoin cashers and the BSV people.

1623
01:41:52,347 --> 01:41:55,347
It gave us lightning. We needed it for lightning.

1624
01:41:56,347 --> 01:42:07,347
I always joke that when it comes to defining who's the real Bitcoin, it's kind of
like defining what are the actual objective borders between Poland, Lithuania and
Russia.

1625
01:42:07,347 --> 01:42:12,347
It's like, well, nobody's ever going to agree that those are a real thing.

1626
01:42:12,347 --> 01:42:14,347
I know you're partially Polish.

1627
01:42:14,347 --> 01:42:16,347
I agree with that, ironically.

1628
01:42:16,347 --> 01:42:21,347
We say we speak English, but no two people really speak exactly the same language.

1629
01:42:21,347 --> 01:42:22,347
Sure.

1630
01:42:22,347 --> 01:42:34,347
So its definitions are, I think, we wouldn't want to hang our hat too much on the
definition because it doesn't help as much as people think.

1631
01:42:34,347 --> 01:42:35,347
For sure.

1632
01:42:35,347 --> 01:42:38,347
We should instead focus on the problems that we want to solve.

1633
01:42:38,347 --> 01:42:39,347
No, I agree completely.

1634
01:42:39,347 --> 01:42:46,347
If we start with values and then here's a goal and then let everybody compete to the
goal, I think that's a good thing.

1635
01:42:46,347 --> 01:42:59,347
Yeah. And to the Terranode point, I would ask the skeptics of that type of thing,
how serious are you in your critique of that?

1636
01:42:59,347 --> 01:43:06,347
Because the serious thing to do is build something and then test it against the real
world using science.

1637
01:43:06,347 --> 01:43:08,347
This is like the scientific method or whatever.

1638
01:43:08,347 --> 01:43:15,347
So if you're serious, if you say, oh, I think there are moons around Jupiter and
then someone says, I don't think so.

1639
01:43:15,347 --> 01:43:18,347
But then you have 500 people say yes, 500 people say no.

1640
01:43:18,347 --> 01:43:25,347
And only one of them builds a telescope that is capable of locating Jupiter in the
sky and looking for moons that might be around it.

1641
01:43:25,347 --> 01:43:28,347
Then that person is the serious person and everyone else is fake.

1642
01:43:28,347 --> 01:43:39,347
And so to explore it honestly would be to create the software and measure it and get
numbers.

1643
01:43:40,347 --> 01:43:50,347
And that is that is what the BTC should do that just to figure out, like, what could
the block size theoretically be on the off chance that anyone ever wanted or how,
you know, how important is or should the block size be smaller?

1644
01:43:50,347 --> 01:44:02,347
You know, many people, Luke Junior has he's constructed an argument that is much,
much, much better than his other arguments, because at least this one has some kind
of logical consistency and I can follow it.

1645
01:44:03,347 --> 01:44:04,347
Maybe the problem is mine, I don't know.

1646
01:44:04,347 --> 01:44:10,347
But he has an argument for why this should be 350 kilobyte blocks instead of one
megabyte.

1647
01:44:10,347 --> 01:44:16,347
And, of course, he, as you can tell, he is not happy with the four megabyte
increase.

1648
01:44:16,347 --> 01:44:20,347
But I don't know. I think I went on a kind of a tangent because you were saying that
witness can be pruned or something.

1649
01:44:20,347 --> 01:44:26,347
But so but it can't be pruned from the you know, this is like I think that's just
kind of a distraction.

1650
01:44:27,347 --> 01:44:32,347
But technically, so if everybody pruned that witness data, then your taproot wizards
would be gone.

1651
01:44:32,347 --> 01:44:34,347
Like that is that is a fact of reality.

1652
01:44:34,347 --> 01:44:41,347
It depends kind of on how you would do it, because the witness data is still there.

1653
01:44:41,347 --> 01:44:51,347
If you run the SegWit node and you ask for it, it will give you the transactions and
all the witnesses and it's in its other and it'll make its other witness transaction
ID and all this other stuff.

1654
01:44:51,347 --> 01:44:54,347
So even if everybody's purged it from their database, where would it come from?

1655
01:44:54,347 --> 01:45:04,347
Well, I think in that that's a separate issue of does can you can everyone prune
like what is pruneable in BTC?

1656
01:45:04,347 --> 01:45:09,347
So, as I said, if you request the old block data, someone has to give it to you.

1657
01:45:09,347 --> 01:45:18,347
Otherwise, the network will fork at that point because all the new nodes will just
decide, well, I don't know what what this is.

1658
01:45:18,347 --> 01:45:27,347
I think the pruning is in the same category as SPV, where you have decided you have
said, OK, I've synced a full node.

1659
01:45:27,347 --> 01:45:32,347
I already know because he's saying the part of the white paper is called reclaiming
disk space.

1660
01:45:32,347 --> 01:45:35,347
So I've already spent my disk space on this.

1661
01:45:35,347 --> 01:45:48,347
And I think that's a very good section title for that part, because what he's saying
is I have requested this data and I've already gotten it and I validated it.

1662
01:45:48,347 --> 01:45:55,347
And so whether I put it on the C drive or the D drive or the E drive or I put it on
the F drive and then we unplug the F drive and throw it away.

1663
01:45:55,347 --> 01:46:10,347
I like I kind of I, you know, I saw it already. So I know that this and, you know,
it's you could always ask when someone is going to spend money to you.

1664
01:46:10,347 --> 01:46:15,347
They say, I will spend this output and then you're like, oh, that's more block I
deleted.

1665
01:46:15,347 --> 01:46:20,347
And you're like, oh, no, but you can always ask them. They have the output. They
have the Merkle path probably still.

1666
01:46:21,347 --> 01:46:28,347
So they they will they can send you the thing that proves that, oh, even though I
saw this block and then I deleted it.

1667
01:46:28,347 --> 01:46:39,347
This now the little Merkle Merkle branch is that's more than enough for you to say,
OK, there are actually 30 Bitcoin here and he sent me seven now in the future.

1668
01:46:39,347 --> 01:46:43,347
So that's why I think that that works.

1669
01:46:43,347 --> 01:46:49,347
But it will not nothing will work if everyone has deleted the block 700 as the way
the software is set up now.

1670
01:46:49,347 --> 01:46:54,347
You could set it up a different way. And in fact, some altcoin got away, wasn't it?

1671
01:46:54,347 --> 01:46:57,347
I think like Stellar or something, a ripple, they lost like a bunch of the blocks.

1672
01:46:57,347 --> 01:47:00,347
Yeah, like 90,000 blocks or something.

1673
01:47:00,347 --> 01:47:03,347
People make fun of that, which they should because it is funny.

1674
01:47:03,347 --> 01:47:08,347
But to your point, it's not like their network just like bursts into flames and
doesn't work.

1675
01:47:08,347 --> 01:47:11,347
You know what I mean? It's like it's sort of still there.

1676
01:47:11,347 --> 01:47:15,347
So it does depend on what you prioritize.

1677
01:47:15,347 --> 01:47:20,347
I mean, I suppose it's an open question if there is a dispute, like maybe someone
says, oh, I actually have.

1678
01:47:21,347 --> 01:47:25,347
Ten thousand ripple or something in this block, and then someone says, no, actually,
I have those.

1679
01:47:25,347 --> 01:47:30,347
I suppose it's kind of an open question if that ever came up and what what exactly
that means.

1680
01:47:30,347 --> 01:47:32,347
And what does it mean, like to lose those blocks?

1681
01:47:32,347 --> 01:47:37,347
And then in that case, if I get money today in a block, like, is that block going to
be lost later?

1682
01:47:37,347 --> 01:47:38,347
And then what's going to happen?

1683
01:47:38,347 --> 01:47:42,347
So I think those those are some funny questions we could ask.

1684
01:47:42,347 --> 01:47:48,347
But I kind of to your point, it's not as though that that network suddenly went to
zero utility instantly.

1685
01:47:48,347 --> 01:47:56,347
I don't know exactly what it means, but it's an interesting example of that
happening with the blocks being lost.

1686
01:47:57,347 --> 01:47:59,347
For sure. So what do you think?

1687
01:47:59,347 --> 01:48:02,347
We're coming up on nearly two hours here.

1688
01:48:02,347 --> 01:48:05,347
Do you want to make a broader point?

1689
01:48:05,347 --> 01:48:11,347
Is there something in particular you wish we could have discussed or like how we got
about 15 minutes until we're at two hours?

1690
01:48:11,347 --> 01:48:14,347
So what's the is there anything you like?

1691
01:48:14,347 --> 01:48:16,347
Do you think should we should we explore?

1692
01:48:17,347 --> 01:48:19,347
Hmm. We did discuss a lot.

1693
01:48:19,347 --> 01:48:20,347
Yeah.

1694
01:48:22,347 --> 01:48:24,347
We did discuss a lot.

1695
01:48:24,347 --> 01:48:29,347
I think I can't think of anything other than, you know, Craig saying he doesn't like
BIP300.

1696
01:48:29,347 --> 01:48:31,347
But, you know, a lot of people don't like it.

1697
01:48:31,347 --> 01:48:33,347
So Peter Town also doesn't like it.

1698
01:48:33,347 --> 01:48:34,347
So they should form a club.

1699
01:48:34,347 --> 01:48:36,347
I think so.

1700
01:48:36,347 --> 01:48:37,347
So here's what I like about it.

1701
01:48:37,347 --> 01:48:49,347
Just like I'd love to steel man it for a second here and say, like, I like the idea
that you can you can show people that they can bootstrap anything onto Bitcoin or
using Bitcoin.

1702
01:48:49,347 --> 01:48:53,347
And, you know, however you feel about BTC being the real Bitcoin or whatever.

1703
01:48:53,347 --> 01:48:58,347
But the point is, is that Bitcoin is a very powerful general purpose tool.

1704
01:48:58,347 --> 01:49:01,347
And then you can use it to create all these other things.

1705
01:49:01,347 --> 01:49:06,347
And I think that's probably the biggest and best lesson for something like BIP300.

1706
01:49:06,347 --> 01:49:16,347
Now, what I what I don't like about it, what I suspect Craig doesn't like about it
is that he doesn't like the fact that, well, it solves the problem of small blocks.

1707
01:49:16,347 --> 01:49:21,347
And it it sort of brushes away the fact that I think the small block cultism.

1708
01:49:21,347 --> 01:49:36,347
And I think you'd agree with this, that small block cultism undermines so many
crucial things about Bitcoin that have just been written off at this point, because
there's this presumption that Bitcoin is supposed to be slow and expensive and
everybody should run a node.

1709
01:49:36,347 --> 01:49:44,347
And I think like to concede anything on that premise is the kind of thing that's
going to make Craig lose sleep at night, which is why he will not accept such a
proposal.

1710
01:49:44,347 --> 01:49:58,347
But but I think I think in BSV, for example, like I don't see any problem with
running an exact implementation of BIP300, like a Drivechains concept on BSV.

1711
01:49:58,347 --> 01:50:00,347
I think it's a basically good solution.

1712
01:50:00,347 --> 01:50:07,347
So yeah, BIP300, it's like the ensemble of L2s has an unlimited block.

1713
01:50:07,347 --> 01:50:10,347
You can just keep adding more L2s.

1714
01:50:10,347 --> 01:50:15,347
So you have now you have all kinds of block space that you may want.

1715
01:50:15,347 --> 01:50:20,347
In a sense, it's not as good because BSV already has the unlimited blocks.

1716
01:50:20,347 --> 01:50:33,347
I think you're right that if the plan for BTC is to keep the blocks small and keep
all the tech that we have, like keep lightning only, then I think people would get
really, really worried if they really thought about what that meant.

1717
01:50:33,347 --> 01:50:38,347
And I think a lot to your point, a lot of these people don't have no many.

1718
01:50:38,347 --> 01:50:49,347
You can talk to even people who've been into Bitcoin for a long time or even large
miners today, and they don't they don't really know what any like how this a lot of
these in particular, one interesting thing about miners.

1719
01:50:49,347 --> 01:50:57,347
This may conflict with the whole because the BSV is like nodes equal miners or
whatever, and miners will take care of the network.

1720
01:50:58,347 --> 01:51:10,347
But many BTC miners that I have met over the last few years, which I have gone to
like mine disrupt a few times, but a lot of them don't even they're not even
Bitcoiners.

1721
01:51:10,347 --> 01:51:16,347
They're just like people who can get cheap power or people who can like easily set
up.

1722
01:51:16,347 --> 01:51:22,347
They're very good at quickly setting up and tearing down like I don't know, like
these like storage units that can hold the thing.

1723
01:51:22,347 --> 01:51:29,347
They're literally thinking about it kind of like the mining analogy is almost
complete or something where someone's going to mine cobalt or something and then
sell it.

1724
01:51:29,347 --> 01:51:34,347
And they don't even really care about if it's cobalt or silver or whatever.

1725
01:51:34,347 --> 01:51:38,347
So that is an interesting thing about the miners.

1726
01:51:39,347 --> 01:51:45,347
And you're right. So it's funny. I actually have a like an inside industry report
coming out in the next couple of days.

1727
01:51:45,347 --> 01:51:53,347
I went to mining disrupt this past year and basically noted that two thirds of the
vendors in there are not related to the Bitcoin industry at all.

1728
01:51:53,347 --> 01:51:56,347
They were all power arbitrage and carbon credits.

1729
01:51:56,347 --> 01:52:00,347
And here's all this all these novel things you can do because you're this big power
consumer.

1730
01:52:00,347 --> 01:52:03,347
And it is it's problematic.

1731
01:52:03,347 --> 01:52:14,347
And so to break that out, it's I think largely people treat hashing as mining like
they don't understand the differentiation between like what is mining versus what is
hashing.

1732
01:52:14,347 --> 01:52:20,347
And I think blind hashing by itself, not connected to a Bitcoin node is not mining.

1733
01:52:20,347 --> 01:52:24,347
Right. And so you have to have the hashing and the client in order to be a miner.

1734
01:52:24,347 --> 01:52:28,347
And I try to separate them out, but it's hard. A lot of people don't agree with
that.

1735
01:52:28,347 --> 01:52:30,347
I don't know why they don't, because I agree.

1736
01:52:30,347 --> 01:52:35,347
But I think there's you know, it's a specialization of labor thing where the pool is
going to set the block.

1737
01:52:35,347 --> 01:52:41,347
But a lot of people hate that. So, again, to mention Luke or whatever, Luke thinks
this is the end of the world.

1738
01:52:41,347 --> 01:52:54,347
And even the Stratum V2 people think that they think it's desirable for the hasher
to be able to override what the pool is trying to put in the block.

1739
01:52:54,347 --> 01:53:00,347
But of course, like this is kind of strange, because as you and I have just
discussed, the hashers, like they don't even know what's going on.

1740
01:53:00,347 --> 01:53:06,347
And they of course, they one of the reason why they prefer there's different types
of payouts.

1741
01:53:06,347 --> 01:53:10,347
And it's very confusing. And if you actually run a pool, you probably know more
about it than I do.

1742
01:53:10,347 --> 01:53:19,347
But it's like a lot of them prefer just like paper share or the paper share adjusted
for the fees because they just want they know how many hashes they can get and they
just want money.

1743
01:53:19,347 --> 01:53:26,347
So they don't know about like all this stuff about like whatever trending historical
patterns of block fees.

1744
01:53:26,347 --> 01:53:31,347
They don't like they're just like I will I will hash and you will pay me money and
it's a fully specialized thing.

1745
01:53:31,347 --> 01:53:38,347
So the whole Stratum V2 quest, they think to decentralize the block mining template.

1746
01:53:38,347 --> 01:53:42,347
This is another thing I disagree. And they had the Bitcoin magazine and the mining
edition.

1747
01:53:42,347 --> 01:53:45,347
And they asked me for the other side so they could put it at the end.

1748
01:53:46,347 --> 01:53:52,347
But I wrote about like how many of these ideas make no sense to me at all and that
no one wants them.

1749
01:53:52,347 --> 01:53:56,347
And like they don't even achieve anything because it's not desirable.

1750
01:53:56,347 --> 01:54:02,347
If you join a pool, you're hoping that the pool will maximize the amount of money we
all get.

1751
01:54:02,347 --> 01:54:09,347
Yeah. So there's no it's not like there's a controversy about should the block
contain this or should it contain that?

1752
01:54:09,347 --> 01:54:12,347
It's like, no, we want the most money. Like it's there's an objective.

1753
01:54:13,347 --> 01:54:16,347
There's an objective thing that so I don't the whole thing is bizarre to me.

1754
01:54:16,347 --> 01:54:18,347
But that's another thing that people don't agree.

1755
01:54:18,347 --> 01:54:21,347
But anyway, I kind of bring that up because it cuts a little bit against the whole.

1756
01:54:22,347 --> 01:54:29,347
The idea in Bitcoin SV that the miners will end up as these people who guard the
network in BTC.

1757
01:54:29,347 --> 01:54:32,347
They are traveling far away from the.

1758
01:54:32,347 --> 01:54:33,347
Sure.

1759
01:54:33,347 --> 01:54:36,347
Maybe it'll be different in Bitcoin SV than in BTC but maybe not.

1760
01:54:36,347 --> 01:54:40,347
I think I think that's I think that's the product of really SegWit.

1761
01:54:40,347 --> 01:54:42,347
But it's that era, too.

1762
01:54:42,347 --> 01:54:48,347
I think miners, they were ideological and they did see themselves as the, you know,
hey, we're the stewards of the system.

1763
01:54:48,347 --> 01:54:55,347
And they really just kind of got beaten out by Core saying, no, we're the stewards
and you run the reference client or we're going to sue you.

1764
01:54:55,347 --> 01:54:59,347
Which is, you know, some of some of that information has come out in the last couple
of years.

1765
01:55:00,347 --> 01:55:03,347
I mean, look at Jihong Wu and Hypo Yang.

1766
01:55:03,347 --> 01:55:06,347
Those guys were like, no, man, this is our job.

1767
01:55:06,347 --> 01:55:09,347
And they really got pushed into the corner by Core.

1768
01:55:09,347 --> 01:55:10,347
You are right.

1769
01:55:10,347 --> 01:55:15,347
It's an interesting question as to because I think it is something of a chicken and
egg with everything cultural.

1770
01:55:15,347 --> 01:55:19,347
Everything cultural is like chicken and an egg where you can't really tell like what
is this?

1771
01:55:19,347 --> 01:55:22,347
Is X causing Y or is it the other way around?

1772
01:55:22,347 --> 01:55:33,347
But it's true that like particularly with the SegWit activation, it was like people
split into teams and then one team was like conclusively defeated.

1773
01:55:33,347 --> 01:55:44,347
And they kind of and in fact, one thing that I say I'm very confident about saying
is there's a data point that kind of cut SegWit activated in this contentious way.

1774
01:55:44,347 --> 01:55:48,347
The UASF specifically, you know, in spite of the miner.

1775
01:55:48,347 --> 01:55:51,347
So that was overt.

1776
01:55:51,347 --> 01:55:54,347
And then Taproot, which was the soft fork after that.

1777
01:55:54,347 --> 01:56:05,347
And the way I read the cultural situation was that that was the miners sort of
accepting defeat and submissively bringing.

1778
01:56:05,347 --> 01:56:09,347
So even this one is an example of that.

1779
01:56:09,347 --> 01:56:15,347
There won't be any soft forks in the future because the whole reason that Taproot
was activated by speedy trial was because of miners feeling guilty.

1780
01:56:15,347 --> 01:56:17,347
It's like Germans feeling guilty about World War Two or something.

1781
01:56:18,347 --> 01:56:30,347
Actually, the reverse of what people think people someone could argue against
someone who look just naively looks at the pattern would say, well, Paul, actually
after SegWit Taproot activated.

1782
01:56:30,347 --> 01:56:34,347
So soft forks are still still with us and they're still alive and well.

1783
01:56:34,347 --> 01:56:52,347
But actually, the Taproot was like a negative shadow inverse of the SegWit
catastrophe of trying miners trying to say, oh, we will be we will be nice or we
will agree with you more or something or we will we will we will defer to what you
want even more than before.

1784
01:56:53,347 --> 01:57:03,347
But, yeah, there was, of course, a few of the large blockers tended to be the
Chinese miners, which was and all the ASICs were coming from China at one point.

1785
01:57:03,347 --> 01:57:05,347
And so they ended up that ended up being part of it.

1786
01:57:05,347 --> 01:57:07,347
So you might you might be right about that.

1787
01:57:07,347 --> 01:57:09,347
I don't know, though, because think about it.

1788
01:57:09,347 --> 01:57:16,347
The economics of it, the specialization of labor are very, very reliable effects.

1789
01:57:16,347 --> 01:57:18,347
So I don't know. But think about this.

1790
01:57:18,347 --> 01:57:22,347
Also, you can a miner can.

1791
01:57:22,347 --> 01:57:31,347
You just as you can use SPV to free ride off of someone else's node, you say you
have three large miners and the nodes are expensive.

1792
01:57:31,347 --> 01:57:36,347
Well, then one miner can just say, I'm going to be SPV mode and I'm going to use the
other miners full node.

1793
01:57:36,347 --> 01:57:41,347
And so in this way, you have now separated mining from running a node.

1794
01:57:41,347 --> 01:57:55,347
So this is another like core belief of BSV that I kind of just don't believe,
because the node is whether or not you check all the transactions and it is
independent of whether or not you are doing any mining yourself or collecting any
fees.

1795
01:57:55,347 --> 01:58:06,347
So it's not really. You could say it would you could say it would tend to vertically
integrate, but you could also just say there's absolutely no reason to consider them
to be bundled together because.

1796
01:58:06,347 --> 01:58:14,347
Well, for my just and I'm speaking as a minor of BSV is that I actually see the data
as the store of value.

1797
01:58:14,347 --> 01:58:24,347
Like for me, it's what is on that database, because it is data that has been
committed by proof of work and lives in distributed consensus that I can then be
selling back to the economy.

1798
01:58:24,347 --> 01:58:26,347
It's like it's the proof of everything.

1799
01:58:26,347 --> 01:58:28,347
It's at scale right now.

1800
01:58:28,347 --> 01:58:32,347
It's not right now. It's a lot of like, hey, when you want to buy this, this JPEG
will serve it to you.

1801
01:58:32,347 --> 01:58:40,347
But but I think in 20 years, if, you know, let's say global banking is on that
ledger, I mean, that's really that's the golden goose.

1802
01:58:40,347 --> 01:58:47,347
Like, hey, I've got a disk image over here that I will sell you if you if you want
to validate every single thing on it.

1803
01:58:47,347 --> 01:58:49,347
I will sell you this disk image to do it.

1804
01:58:50,347 --> 01:59:02,347
And I really see that as something very valuable, like the complete and total
archival set of data of that network, if it's successful, I think could be the most
valuable chunk of data ever.

1805
01:59:02,347 --> 01:59:13,347
So I absolutely would not be pruning my node and or, you know, or only keeping one
copy like we have distributed lots of not like I want all that data because I want
to be the guy that has all that data.

1806
01:59:13,347 --> 01:59:17,347
If if we're right about the way this plays out.

1807
01:59:17,347 --> 01:59:24,347
But you sort of said that it wasn't it was OK if block 700 went missing.

1808
01:59:24,347 --> 01:59:29,347
I don't know exactly. Is it the I don't know exactly which side of that.

1809
01:59:29,347 --> 01:59:32,347
Theoretically, I'm I'm not going to be the guy that lets it go missing.

1810
01:59:32,347 --> 01:59:36,347
I will be the last guy with block seven hundred thousand two.

1811
01:59:36,347 --> 01:59:43,347
And someone would pay because they want to know that this is the data that was here
by this point in time.

1812
01:59:43,347 --> 01:59:46,347
Yeah. I mean, if if they care that much.

1813
01:59:46,347 --> 01:59:48,347
I mean, maybe there's maybe there's a trillion dollars in that block.

1814
01:59:48,347 --> 01:59:51,347
So they'll pay me one hundred million bucks for it.

1815
01:59:51,347 --> 01:59:53,347
Like, cool. Can you maybe explain that a little bit more?

1816
01:59:53,347 --> 01:59:57,347
Like, why would I want to pay a hundred million dollars for it?

1817
01:59:57,347 --> 02:00:01,347
First of all, if I start up the node software, I could theoretically get it for
free.

1818
02:00:01,347 --> 02:00:05,347
I would be paying the node costs.

1819
02:00:05,347 --> 02:00:08,347
So maybe so maybe maybe it's not being served.

1820
02:00:08,347 --> 02:00:18,347
And I think one of these things that people assume is that the ability to download
the network from just open public seed nodes for free is a premise that should just
exist.

1821
02:00:18,347 --> 02:00:21,347
And I think that is always going to suffer from the tragedy of the commons.

1822
02:00:21,347 --> 02:00:24,347
You're treating it like it's everyone's river. Right.

1823
02:00:24,347 --> 02:00:27,347
And it's it's not like you want data that's on my computer.

1824
02:00:27,347 --> 02:00:35,347
And if you really, really want the data that's only on my computer, that has some
kind of a cost, either computational or it's or it's a network cost or something.

1825
02:00:35,347 --> 02:00:41,347
But I mean, if you want it, if it's crucial, then we negotiate the value for that.

1826
02:00:41,347 --> 02:00:55,347
I mean, like maybe it's maybe it's 50 bucks or, you know, or maybe it's some serious
chunk of money in order to get that, because you need to validate that your ten
thousand bitcoins or whatever are in that block and nobody else has the ability to
validate that for you.

1827
02:00:55,347 --> 02:01:08,347
So I think that's a I think it's a huge opportunity at scale for a big node operator
to be able to help banks or, you know, whoever other archivists like family offices.

1828
02:01:08,347 --> 02:01:11,347
Like, hey, I think my dad had a thousand bitcoins 50 years ago.

1829
02:01:11,347 --> 02:01:13,347
Can you can you help me drill into it?

1830
02:01:13,347 --> 02:01:16,347
Like, yeah, if I have all the data, like, give me the pieces.

1831
02:01:16,347 --> 02:01:18,347
We'll rearchitect it.

1832
02:01:18,347 --> 02:01:20,347
And if we can prove that it's yours.

1833
02:01:20,347 --> 02:01:21,347
Cool. It's yours.

1834
02:01:21,347 --> 02:01:26,347
Pay us 50 grand in order to validate the thing and whatever.

1835
02:01:26,347 --> 02:01:49,347
So like instead of in BTC right now, the trying to get people to run full nodes,
trying to keep the node costs down, the node downloads all the data for free and
syncs it so that the person running the node has a copy of the blockchain and can
verify that they when they receive money, they will get double spends.

1836
02:01:49,347 --> 02:01:57,347
The idea in Bitcoin SV is, in fact, to run a node, you have to pay people for the
historical data.

1837
02:01:57,347 --> 02:02:02,347
In theory, I think it's one possible solution.

1838
02:02:02,347 --> 02:02:04,347
I think there are technical like their software.

1839
02:02:04,347 --> 02:02:08,347
There's cryptographic cryptographic solutions to the sync problem.

1840
02:02:08,347 --> 02:02:11,347
And then I think there's also just plainly commercial.

1841
02:02:11,347 --> 02:02:17,347
Like if we were to run a client, we actually run a proprietary client that we mine
on and it does some special things.

1842
02:02:17,347 --> 02:02:18,347
We have a tool.

1843
02:02:18,347 --> 02:02:19,347
We call it Jungle Bus.

1844
02:02:19,347 --> 02:02:25,347
It's essentially a data bus that you can subscribe to and listen to various types of
network events.

1845
02:02:25,347 --> 02:02:33,347
And so if you cannot afford to run a full node, you can subscribe to our jungle bus,
which is similar to a node, but it's just an API service.

1846
02:02:33,347 --> 02:02:43,347
And then you can have that subscription feed your light index of whatever it is you
want to hear some specific token or you want JPEGs or you just want JPEGs that are
part of this NFT collection, whatever.

1847
02:02:43,347 --> 02:02:45,347
I don't care.

1848
02:02:45,347 --> 02:02:46,347
Pay me some subscription.

1849
02:02:46,347 --> 02:02:52,347
Maybe it's 30 bucks a month or maybe it's, you know, do it by the data amount or
whatever.

1850
02:02:52,347 --> 02:02:58,347
And you get fed that data and you're subscribing to us the same way you'd subscribe
to like an ISP.

1851
02:02:58,347 --> 02:03:01,347
I pay 100 bucks a month to Comcast to serve me the Internet.

1852
02:03:01,347 --> 02:03:02,347
That's my relationship with them.

1853
02:03:02,347 --> 02:03:05,347
I kind of see it as the same thing.

1854
02:03:05,347 --> 02:03:06,347
Indeed, yes.

1855
02:03:06,347 --> 02:03:18,347
So the business model is that this service, this is like an Fiora for Ethereum
where, you know, you are paying the node sync cost and then you get money coming in
based on API calls.

1856
02:03:18,347 --> 02:03:19,347
Yep.

1857
02:03:19,347 --> 02:03:24,347
But this still gets back to why it is important how much that costs.

1858
02:03:24,347 --> 02:03:27,347
Because that's your costs running the service.

1859
02:03:27,347 --> 02:03:28,347
Sure.

1860
02:03:28,347 --> 02:03:30,347
But, yeah, I completely agree with that.

1861
02:03:30,347 --> 02:03:33,347
And interestingly, that service doesn't have to mine, right?

1862
02:03:33,347 --> 02:03:34,347
It could be a different thing.

1863
02:03:34,347 --> 02:03:36,347
And all the miners could subscribe also.

1864
02:03:36,347 --> 02:03:39,347
So the whole nodes equals miners.

1865
02:03:39,347 --> 02:03:45,347
But, yeah, this is the idea of not having your own node.

1866
02:03:45,347 --> 02:03:56,347
And so that's all very well, but it still relies on that service is only going to be
around if the node costs stay low.

1867
02:03:56,347 --> 02:04:01,347
And, of course, the people who will start such a business will tend to be the most
optimistic about the business model.

1868
02:04:01,347 --> 02:04:02,347
Right.

1869
02:04:02,347 --> 02:04:03,347
Sure.

1870
02:04:03,347 --> 02:04:04,347
Indeed.

1871
02:04:04,347 --> 02:04:05,347
Right.

1872
02:04:05,347 --> 02:04:06,347
Yeah.

1873
02:04:06,347 --> 02:04:14,347
But I still think to talk about cost without at least projected ROI, I think, is not
a fair calculation.

1874
02:04:14,347 --> 02:04:16,347
It doesn't have to be an obvious ROI.

1875
02:04:16,347 --> 02:04:17,347
You have to project the revenue also.

1876
02:04:17,347 --> 02:04:18,347
Right.

1877
02:04:18,347 --> 02:04:19,347
Okay.

1878
02:04:19,347 --> 02:04:20,347
But let's think about this, though.

1879
02:04:20,347 --> 02:04:21,347
How much revenue can actually be charged?

1880
02:04:21,347 --> 02:04:25,347
Because if someone syncs the blockchain, they can compete with you.

1881
02:04:25,347 --> 02:04:27,347
They have all the data.

1882
02:04:27,347 --> 02:04:28,347
In theory.

1883
02:04:28,347 --> 02:04:30,347
I mean, they have to serve it well.

1884
02:04:30,347 --> 02:04:31,347
Like, it's the same thing.

1885
02:04:31,347 --> 02:04:33,347
Like, why use one ISP over another?

1886
02:04:33,347 --> 02:04:37,347
It's like, I don't know, throughput or availability or guarantees.

1887
02:04:37,347 --> 02:04:39,347
Like, whatever.

1888
02:04:39,347 --> 02:04:41,347
It's a funny way of flipping the script.

1889
02:04:41,347 --> 02:04:42,347
I've got to give it to you.

1890
02:04:42,347 --> 02:04:46,347
That is a funny way of saying, you know, Bitcoin Core, everyone's like, well, how
can we get more people to run a node?

1891
02:04:46,347 --> 02:04:51,347
And then it's like, you can't even run a node unless you pay us.

1892
02:04:51,347 --> 02:04:55,347
I mean, I think it should be.

1893
02:04:55,347 --> 02:04:56,347
I think so.

1894
02:04:56,347 --> 02:04:57,347
I often make.

1895
02:04:57,980 --> 02:05:24,980
Analogies, and I tell small blocker like the deepest small blockers that they don't
understand that they're communists, but what they're essentially doing is pre
planning the level at which people are allowed to compete to say, if we make that if
we make that ceiling too high, then people won't be able to compete. And that would
fundamentally be bad. But that's sounds like an experiment in the Communist
Manifesto to me. It should be taking a fixed parameter is a static thing, which has
it's a static thing, but it's a static thing.

1896
02:05:24,980 --> 02:05:28,300
Sort of is like a similar to like a price control in a sort of way.

1897
02:05:28,300 --> 02:05:33,380
But there's a flip version where the BSV is communist also, because it's all the
free rider.

1898
02:05:33,380 --> 02:05:36,900
Everyone's free riding. It says we will. We're all in this together.

1899
02:05:36,900 --> 02:05:42,580
And no matter who puts what in the block, we will. It's kind of like running a
library for it.

1900
02:05:42,580 --> 02:05:45,980
I'm not putting something in if they don't pay for it, just like the taxpayer.

1901
02:05:45,980 --> 02:05:53,700
Well, I don't know exactly how to modify the analogy, but it's kind of you run a
huge library where anyone can send in a book.

1902
02:05:53,700 --> 02:06:01,220
And then the library is going to be responsible for storing the book, making copies
of it and even mailing it out to people.

1903
02:06:01,220 --> 02:06:04,100
It's forever. They got to pay. They got to pay to put it in.

1904
02:06:04,100 --> 02:06:07,100
They got to pay to check it out. That's a business model.

1905
02:06:07,100 --> 02:06:11,180
It's instead of a library.

1906
02:06:11,180 --> 02:06:20,740
So, yeah, it's like where you anyone where it's a private library to support the
town and say whatever it is.

1907
02:06:20,740 --> 02:06:24,740
You're saying that it will charge for the books, which is funny, essentially.

1908
02:06:24,740 --> 02:06:26,820
But I mean, but it's it's the same thing.

1909
02:06:26,820 --> 02:06:33,820
The library works because it lives off of big donations and it lives off of taxpayer
dollars, plus whatever the cost of your library card is annually.

1910
02:06:33,820 --> 02:06:37,540
Like there is a business model there, even if it's they treat it like it's not.

1911
02:06:37,540 --> 02:06:40,980
It's it's our community library, but like nobody's working for free.

1912
02:06:40,980 --> 02:06:43,220
There's an actual business model there, too.

1913
02:06:43,220 --> 02:06:46,820
And that's true. I mean, of course, the library, there is kind of like a vague, as
you said,

1914
02:06:46,820 --> 02:06:54,380
there's kind of a vague conception that during normal hours, anyone can show up
there and read the books on the shelves and quietly and whatever.

1915
02:06:54,380 --> 02:06:58,340
Interestingly, library has to have all these rules about like people have to be
quiet and stuff.

1916
02:06:58,340 --> 02:07:02,100
It's kind of like a block size limit in a way to the comments.

1917
02:07:02,100 --> 02:07:10,620
So that's a neat idea. If you can say that it doesn't matter how, you know, the node
will be a certain cost, but they'll bring in all this revenue.

1918
02:07:10,620 --> 02:07:15,500
But of course, again, the transaction fees are not necessarily the revenue that's
brought in.

1919
02:07:15,500 --> 02:07:23,220
So I don't know. And what that is sort of like, will you compete with AWS and
Dropbox and stuff?

1920
02:07:23,220 --> 02:07:25,500
I mean, maybe it depends.

1921
02:07:25,500 --> 02:07:35,260
And I don't think it needs to be in something where there's a lot of there
potentially a lot of free writing or maybe not, maybe not, because maybe everyone's
just saying, I'm going to have this control over what's in the block.

1922
02:07:35,260 --> 02:07:37,620
And yeah, well, I think it depends, too.

1923
02:07:37,620 --> 02:07:43,420
It's about value. Like, you know, do I want to put every duplicate copy of all the
pictures of my phone?

1924
02:07:43,420 --> 02:07:44,940
Like, do I want to pay to upload those?

1925
02:07:44,940 --> 02:07:46,980
Like, no, it'd be too expensive and it's irrelevant.

1926
02:07:46,980 --> 02:07:53,380
But like, maybe I'll put my wedding pictures and like the nicely edited photos of my
children being born or, you know, that kind of thing.

1927
02:07:53,380 --> 02:07:58,660
Because it's like it's on Bitcoin SV, but you wouldn't put it on AWS or something or
Dropbox.

1928
02:07:58,660 --> 02:07:59,740
I think it depends.

1929
02:07:59,740 --> 02:08:06,580
I mean, like, I think that's a personal value calculation that you make for
yourself.

1930
02:08:06,580 --> 02:08:08,220
You know, you want it permanent.

1931
02:08:08,220 --> 02:08:14,540
If I want to know that it's permanent, maybe I'm willing to pay to put it on, you
know, the greatest proof of work network that ever existed.

1932
02:08:14,540 --> 02:08:19,540
And I think that's just a personal choice that is, you know, up to people to make
themselves.

1933
02:08:19,540 --> 02:08:20,340
Yes, of course.

1934
02:08:20,340 --> 02:08:21,540
Yes.

1935
02:08:21,540 --> 02:08:31,060
The point of putting it on like Dropbox or AWS would be because it has a very
established brand and they're very unlikely to lose your stuff.

1936
02:08:31,060 --> 02:08:43,500
And then if you were to put it on BSV as it's sort of currently coded now, like what
I was saying before about like all the block content is mandatory for everyone and
the software will complain if it can't find the data.

1937
02:08:43,500 --> 02:08:53,420
So because it's got to check it off for double spends, you'd put it there knowing
that it can hang out on everyone's full node forever.

1938
02:08:53,420 --> 02:08:55,220
But, of course, you could change it.

1939
02:08:55,220 --> 02:09:07,500
You know, like we were talking before about maybe it is only the proof of work
timestamp server and the contents of the block can be discarded completely.

1940
02:09:07,500 --> 02:09:16,940
I think one issue with that, though, is that the miners are being paid the
transaction fees from stuff that happens in earlier blocks.

1941
02:09:16,940 --> 02:09:29,460
So if you lost that, then you might eventually run into a mysterious situation where
it's not clear if the miners were supposed to get if they say they got this number
of fees and maybe that the fees didn't add up.

1942
02:09:29,460 --> 02:09:37,100
Because if you need the contents of the block to add up, oh, 10 cents here, five
cents here, you add it all up.

1943
02:09:37,100 --> 02:09:42,020
I came. This is 7000, which is X number of BSV.

1944
02:09:42,020 --> 02:09:43,180
Right. So I don't know.

1945
02:09:43,180 --> 02:09:44,660
But this is a projecting a lot of that.

1946
02:09:44,660 --> 02:09:55,220
I think the right thing to do is still to measure the node cost, because, of course,
any revenue projections will be even flakier than the cost projections.

1947
02:09:55,220 --> 02:09:58,260
Right. Because the cost projections.

1948
02:09:58,260 --> 02:09:59,420
It's always a projection.

1949
02:09:59,420 --> 02:10:06,020
And then it's kind of like, well, I don't usually it's like a pleasant surprise,
right?

1950
02:10:06,020 --> 02:10:09,380
The new hard drive comes out and it's even cheaper than you thought or something.

1951
02:10:09,380 --> 02:10:10,860
It's kind of like the costs.

1952
02:10:10,860 --> 02:10:13,900
Costs have been going down as.

1953
02:10:13,900 --> 02:10:18,060
Over the last 500 years, everything has gone way down.

1954
02:10:18,060 --> 02:10:21,100
Yeah. So you do those.

1955
02:10:21,100 --> 02:10:25,940
But then the revenue, I think, is much harder, like to project, because who knows?

1956
02:10:25,940 --> 02:10:31,300
And then if this idea works, will there be other copies of the idea?

1957
02:10:31,300 --> 02:10:41,780
And so I think the projecting the revenue or even like, will there be crazy
cryptography like 15 years from now where you can compress every photo you've ever
taken?

1958
02:10:41,780 --> 02:10:44,620
And it's like fits on your phone.

1959
02:10:44,620 --> 02:10:49,380
And it also fits some some other network that is very good at storing things.

1960
02:10:49,380 --> 02:10:52,380
So that all that is really, really hard.

1961
02:10:52,780 --> 02:10:59,260
But I agree with you that you would offset, you would tend to offset the benefit of
the node against the cost.

1962
02:10:59,260 --> 02:11:02,860
And that should be taken into consideration.

1963
02:11:02,860 --> 02:11:12,860
My guess is that the most psychological damage would be if the costs were low,
though, because that is the big that was the big, I think, hang up.

1964
02:11:12,860 --> 02:11:27,260
And this is the big this is my opinion as just what is the big, large blocker, like,
like the big downside that a lot of people kind of just couldn't wrap their heads
around.

1965
02:11:27,260 --> 02:11:33,580
And I think the fact that it was vague makes it worse, you know, sure, because maybe
the cost could be this or could be anything.

1966
02:11:33,580 --> 02:11:34,860
And people just kind of think, I don't really know.

1967
02:11:34,860 --> 02:11:43,700
And I can't. I think that that makes it more fearful in a way, more and more
menacing, because the devil, you know, is better than the devil.

1968
02:11:43,700 --> 02:11:44,620
You don't, you know, right.

1969
02:11:44,620 --> 02:11:49,860
And you just kind of think it does make it the boogeyman where it's kind of like,
well, then, yeah, I don't know who knows.

1970
02:11:49,860 --> 02:12:03,940
And that's the problem with toxicity is that, you know, it got to the point where,
you know, Roger Ver couldn't talk to anyone that ever worked at Blockstream, like to
the point where, you know, I have a funny story about that, which is that, well, I
don't know how many details.

1971
02:12:03,940 --> 02:12:12,180
But someone from as of scaling one in September 2015, people were like, the people
who worked at Blockstream were like, oh, Roger is great.

1972
02:12:12,340 --> 02:12:19,580
We love Roger. So that was like, you can see in real time it changed from from black
into white.

1973
02:12:19,660 --> 02:12:21,740
It was like or vice versa or whatever.

1974
02:12:21,980 --> 02:12:28,020
But the so that everyone was friends before.

1975
02:12:28,020 --> 02:12:30,700
And then because the scaling war, we had all this pointless.

1976
02:12:30,980 --> 02:12:32,380
All this has been a big distraction.

1977
02:12:32,380 --> 02:12:34,100
I see lightning even as just.

1978
02:12:35,260 --> 02:12:43,100
It's almost a victim of the scaling war in a way where the creators, Taz, Draja and
Joseph Poon, they had just had this idea, which is a very good idea.

1979
02:12:43,140 --> 02:12:49,900
Lightning is a very good idea on a technical merit point of view of like, here's
what you can accomplish with these pieces.

1980
02:12:50,340 --> 02:12:56,980
And in fact, there were these channels and they used to have to have the channel
with someone.

1981
02:12:56,980 --> 02:13:01,340
But actually, with Lightning Network, you can route through third parties that you.

1982
02:13:01,580 --> 02:13:07,300
So now it's like a six degrees of Kevin Bacon or whatever type of a thing.

1983
02:13:07,660 --> 02:13:09,860
And so all that was very cool.

1984
02:13:09,860 --> 02:13:12,100
But then, as you know perfectly well.

1985
02:13:13,380 --> 02:13:16,220
There was like, oh, we're going to scale with large block side.

1986
02:13:16,220 --> 02:13:18,020
And then there was like, how are you going to scale?

1987
02:13:18,020 --> 02:13:22,580
And then you were supposed to say it, say it just like it was written on the card,
you know, Lightning Network.

1988
02:13:22,580 --> 02:13:27,740
And it's like that's just and then as a result, it just became craziness everywhere.

1989
02:13:27,740 --> 02:13:30,260
So, yeah, so that's too bad.

1990
02:13:30,260 --> 02:13:36,380
And, you know, it probably probably made it more difficult to accomplish anything in
the Lightning Network anyway.

1991
02:13:36,380 --> 02:13:38,980
So I think it was a bit it was a big setback for everybody.

1992
02:13:38,980 --> 02:13:42,500
You know, like people people will say, oh, you know, Bitcoin won and blah, blah,
blah.

1993
02:13:42,500 --> 02:13:47,140
And I'd look at it and say, you know what, I think we failed to legitimately disrupt
anything.

1994
02:13:47,140 --> 02:13:54,820
And I think other than the price, there's nothing that you can point to to say,
like, wow, we really achieved a great cultural victory.

1995
02:13:54,820 --> 02:13:56,060
I've been very disappointed.

1996
02:13:56,060 --> 02:13:59,220
But again, when you say that, you sound like I say, too.

1997
02:13:59,220 --> 02:14:03,380
And we both we sound so weird when you say it clearly.

1998
02:14:03,380 --> 02:14:06,820
There is no denying that Bitcoin has like.

1999
02:14:08,220 --> 02:14:25,620
Has like erupted into the world and made and then it's a zeitgeist and it has become
this thing that and it's become so valuable and anyone who bought a little bit back
when it was new, you have enough money, more than enough money to retire and have.

2000
02:14:26,060 --> 02:14:28,060
So it's like it's this.

2001
02:14:29,260 --> 02:14:45,740
It's like this, it's just this amazing and yet I have been disappointed because I
was hoping for lots of people using it, you know, better privacy technology, better,
just like a more rational way of handling the technical disagreements.

2002
02:14:45,740 --> 02:14:50,700
One thing that I put out a long time ago is I put out this measuring
decentralization, decentralization.

2003
02:14:51,020 --> 02:14:54,900
I remember that one of your one of your pieces of the same thing.

2004
02:14:54,900 --> 02:14:57,940
Everything is, but people weren't very interested in that.

2005
02:14:57,940 --> 02:15:05,180
And now you see why is because the small blockers were also just saying, we're just
going to cheer for our side and we don't care about numbers or anything.

2006
02:15:05,460 --> 02:15:07,100
So which is always a bad sign.

2007
02:15:07,820 --> 02:15:13,820
And so there are other things that, you know, you would have thought we would
definitely have had by now.

2008
02:15:13,820 --> 02:15:26,500
And it's sad when there's a huge brain drain in BTC because the temptation to do an
altcoin or the temptation to just do like a.

2009
02:15:27,500 --> 02:15:31,940
Well, a lot of people will do like if you're in academia, a lot of people do like
EVM theorem stuff.

2010
02:15:32,380 --> 02:15:41,500
But even the temptation to just write like a little paper, it's very impressive, but
nothing happens because all that stuff is very, very, very tempting.

2011
02:15:41,500 --> 02:15:43,140
And then in BTC, what are you going to do?

2012
02:15:43,140 --> 02:15:44,340
How can it be like?

2013
02:15:44,340 --> 02:15:47,580
Let's tell we can tell a little story like this about with Jeremy Rubin.

2014
02:15:48,300 --> 02:15:50,140
He came up with the CTV idea.

2015
02:15:51,020 --> 02:15:55,500
CTV is a great idea and it enormously improves many different things.

2016
02:15:56,060 --> 02:16:07,580
It lets you open many like right now, you can't open enough lightning anywhere near
enough lightning channels to onboard a significant percentage of anyone, even if the
lightning network, you can't join.

2017
02:16:07,580 --> 02:16:11,500
It takes 180 years or something if we wanted to get everybody in the Western world.

2018
02:16:11,500 --> 02:16:13,980
Yeah, it depends on exactly the assumptions.

2019
02:16:13,980 --> 02:16:21,060
But if you want to have all 8 billion people and you had normal assumptions about
like one transaction to onboard each person, it would be like 100 years or
something.

2020
02:16:21,380 --> 02:16:27,100
So, yeah, which is too long, just FYI to anyone who doesn't want, but the.

2021
02:16:29,180 --> 02:16:34,780
He has this idea, CTV, which among many things it does is it makes it slightly
easier to open more channels.

2022
02:16:36,700 --> 02:16:42,180
But that's not the real reason to do it, and I don't think I don't think that
lightning channel model is going to succeed.

2023
02:16:42,180 --> 02:16:47,740
I do think you can incrementally like improve it for a while, but I don't think that
it's worth it anymore.

2024
02:16:47,780 --> 02:16:51,100
So, yeah, the point is he has the CTV idea.

2025
02:16:51,860 --> 02:16:52,980
It's a perfectly good idea.

2026
02:16:53,740 --> 02:16:57,700
I think the code was finished like in 2018 or something.

2027
02:16:57,700 --> 02:16:58,740
Yeah, it's pretty old now.

2028
02:16:58,740 --> 02:17:00,020
Yeah, very old.

2029
02:17:00,180 --> 02:17:06,580
It's kind of the opposite of what I did where I had the idea and then I answered
questions about the idea for many years and then only wrote code like recently.

2030
02:17:06,740 --> 02:17:10,580
But he has code on older idea.

2031
02:17:10,740 --> 02:17:11,740
People have talked about it.

2032
02:17:12,540 --> 02:17:15,260
I think it was February 2022 or something like that.

2033
02:17:15,260 --> 02:17:16,180
April, one of those.

2034
02:17:16,180 --> 02:17:20,980
I don't know, but he puts out his activation client.

2035
02:17:20,980 --> 02:17:25,420
You know, this is after like talking with all these people and even he volunteered.

2036
02:17:25,660 --> 02:17:29,820
Talk about this hand washes that he volunteered to be like the taproot.

2037
02:17:29,820 --> 02:17:30,900
I don't remember what it was called.

2038
02:17:30,900 --> 02:17:31,940
There was like a name for this.

2039
02:17:31,940 --> 02:17:35,220
It was I remember this a little or something.

2040
02:17:35,260 --> 02:17:40,500
Yeah, it's going to go around and try to like get everyone to upgrade their wallets,
get all the mining pools.

2041
02:17:41,060 --> 02:17:57,500
So he volunteered for the the the present day soft fork, you know, it's kind of like
you, you cleaning up the graveyard and putting the flowers and mowing the lawn so
that when you're dead, someone will take care of your grave or something.

2042
02:17:57,820 --> 02:18:01,100
He's working on the taproot one, doing the unpaid labor.

2043
02:18:02,340 --> 02:18:06,380
Then he gets all this work to get all these names for his.

2044
02:18:06,380 --> 02:18:11,220
And then and then everyone hated his thing.

2045
02:18:11,220 --> 02:18:12,980
And they said he's the worst person ever.

2046
02:18:12,980 --> 02:18:15,660
And they said he's attacking Bitcoin, blah, blah, blah.

2047
02:18:15,660 --> 02:18:17,740
The long list of things they say for every soft fork.

2048
02:18:17,740 --> 02:18:19,460
It's going to turn Bitcoin to an altcoin.

2049
02:18:19,460 --> 02:18:20,700
Never the worst.

2050
02:18:20,700 --> 02:18:22,780
The end of the world. He quits.

2051
02:18:22,780 --> 02:18:28,460
He even though what he did was he put an optional activation client and such a good
sport.

2052
02:18:28,460 --> 02:18:32,140
He put out a client that would like anti activated.

2053
02:18:32,340 --> 02:18:35,500
So you could if you ran nothing, you would just kind of go along with what the
network.

2054
02:18:35,500 --> 02:18:42,500
But if you with what 51 percent hashrate data, if they act, if they act, you would
you would still be existing on your own.

2055
02:18:42,740 --> 02:18:45,140
But you could even put out something that would say.

2056
02:18:46,260 --> 02:18:50,900
If you activate this, I will reject any blocks from someone who's activated this.

2057
02:18:51,140 --> 02:18:53,380
So you kind of very even handedly.

2058
02:18:53,580 --> 02:18:57,420
Yeah. You know, like a judge would put it, you can do innocent or guilty.

2059
02:18:57,420 --> 02:19:00,460
You know, I'm just so and then everyone hated that.

2060
02:19:00,460 --> 02:19:08,900
And he had to quit Bitcoin development and like possibly all development for like a
year or two years.

2061
02:19:08,900 --> 02:19:15,820
I don't know. And now all this time later, years later, now it's three years later.

2062
02:19:15,820 --> 02:19:18,460
Everyone's saying, oh, Covenants are the future.

2063
02:19:18,700 --> 02:19:21,340
But Covenants is his thing, his CTV thing.

2064
02:19:21,340 --> 02:19:30,660
And even the stuff that is derived from that is just because he intentionally
neutered parts of CTV in response to feedback.

2065
02:19:31,140 --> 02:19:33,660
So he made it slightly more tame.

2066
02:19:34,580 --> 02:19:39,180
And then they come out with other stuff, the stuff that this is like TX hash or
whatever, which is like a scooped up.

2067
02:19:39,460 --> 02:19:46,500
It's like the but the CTV could have been equal to CSI or any of these innumerable
variation.

2068
02:19:46,700 --> 02:19:55,180
But the only reason I bring this up is because it's like there is no, there is no
cultural consistency.

2069
02:19:55,180 --> 02:19:57,140
So it's like he proposed this idea.

2070
02:19:57,140 --> 02:20:00,180
It's very tame. Now everyone agrees that it's good.

2071
02:20:00,460 --> 02:20:02,060
When will it activate? I don't know.

2072
02:20:02,060 --> 02:20:03,180
Never. You know, whatever.

2073
02:20:04,220 --> 02:20:05,500
So it's wild.

2074
02:20:06,140 --> 02:20:07,700
So we need to wrap up.

2075
02:20:07,700 --> 02:20:12,820
Unfortunately, I got a family time coming up here in the next few minutes.

2076
02:20:12,820 --> 02:20:14,140
But Paul, it's been fun.

2077
02:20:14,340 --> 02:20:15,220
It's really been a pleasure.

2078
02:20:15,260 --> 02:20:18,140
I think it's been a valuable talk for for everyone involved.

2079
02:20:18,140 --> 02:20:19,500
So thanks for coming.

2080
02:20:20,180 --> 02:20:21,420
Thanks for having me. Thank you.

2081
02:20:21,780 --> 02:20:23,140
All right. Well, we'll talk soon.

2082
02:20:23,140 --> 02:20:26,540
We should stay in touch and maybe do an update again sometime soon.

2083
02:20:26,940 --> 02:20:28,460
All right. Great. All right.

2084
02:20:28,580 --> 02:20:29,740
Take care. Thanks again.

2085
02:20:32,180 --> 02:20:38,580
All right, everybody, so it was Paul Sztorc really turned out differently than I
thought it would.

2086
02:20:39,020 --> 02:20:44,900
Not that Paul's always been a nice guy, I didn't expect it to be toxic or us yelling
at each other.

2087
02:20:44,900 --> 02:20:50,860
But I think we actually agreed on a lot more things than I think either of us
expected.

2088
02:20:50,860 --> 02:20:51,620
So a lot of fun.

2089
02:20:52,420 --> 02:20:58,540
I want to say thanks again to our sponsors, Rock Wallet and Otherworldly TCG.

2090
02:20:58,540 --> 02:20:59,780
Sorry, my brain's a little fried now.

2091
02:21:00,540 --> 02:21:03,980
So if Mr. Producer, we could run the comment of the day.

2092
02:21:03,980 --> 02:21:05,140
You got a lot to choose from.

2093
02:21:05,140 --> 02:21:06,980
We'll distribute an Otherworldly card.

2094
02:21:07,300 --> 02:21:08,660
Let's run the slide.

2095
02:21:15,900 --> 02:21:25,900
We got. Hey, he's been big block pilled.

2096
02:21:26,180 --> 02:21:29,260
I don't know about that. I think I think we both learned some things.

2097
02:21:29,260 --> 02:21:38,780
But so based frogs, please reach out on X to the real CoinGeek account and we will
get you your free pack of cards courtesy of Otherworldly TCG.

2098
02:21:38,860 --> 02:21:40,180
So thanks again to Otherworldly.

2099
02:21:40,180 --> 02:21:41,220
Thanks again to Rock Wallet.

2100
02:21:41,380 --> 02:21:45,980
Of course, CoinGeek for keeping me here live on the air to present this stuff to
you.

2101
02:21:46,140 --> 02:21:51,540
And of course, you, the audience, for tuning in for what I think are the best
conversations in Bitcoin.

2102
02:21:52,060 --> 02:21:53,660
Without you, we wouldn't have anything to do.

2103
02:21:53,660 --> 02:22:00,340
So please like subscribe, hit the alert bell, let our digital overlords know that my
content is worth at least a little something to you.

2104
02:22:00,540 --> 02:22:05,740
And please set your calendars so you know that we go live every single Tuesday at 2
p.m.

2105
02:22:05,740 --> 02:22:06,660
Eastern Standard Time.

2106
02:22:06,900 --> 02:22:10,940
If you would like to be a guest in the future, please also reach out to the CoinGeek
account to schedule.

2107
02:22:11,420 --> 02:22:14,020
If you're an entrepreneur, you got some kind of cool thing launching.

2108
02:22:14,140 --> 02:22:16,900
You get dibs to bump your way into our schedule.

2109
02:22:17,020 --> 02:22:19,220
So again, thank you so much, everybody.

2110
02:22:19,340 --> 02:22:20,420
I'm Kurt Walker Jr.

2111
02:22:20,420 --> 02:22:26,180
Reminding you at the very least to be good to each other, but go out and do some
good in the world.

2112
02:22:26,180 --> 02:22:27,500
And and thanks again.

2113
02:22:27,540 --> 02:22:29,140
So we'll see you next week.

2114
02:22:29,460 --> 02:22:29,780
Goodbye.