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Okay, here we are. We made it to another Wednesday, and I took some notes about

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what to talk about, but also we had this tweet about people can comment, which I

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think was a good idea. Should do that more. So I think that is a good... So yeah,

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one person commented on... Well, I'm not sure if this should have like some more

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organization or whatever, but I'm just going to just keep doing it kind of

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randomly. And I'll just talk early on, and then we'll just open it up to whoever

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wants to talk about whatever they can. But one person asked about plans for

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future governance structure, how upgrades will be decided. Thank you. And I think

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this is like a really important thing to explain, because BIP300 is the

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governance solution. So in contrast, when Ethereum launched, it was

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totally dependent on Vitalik, and it had to be built. It was

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completely unfinished. It didn't exist at all. And so when it was announced,

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it didn't exist. And then when it launched, it didn't exist. And then it was

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unfinished for a long time. It's still unfinished. But BIP300 is like a

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completed, completable project. And when it's on, people will be able to add or

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remove different L2s. The L2s will be able to compete for users. So there will

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be some governance, but the only governance, so to speak, is which L2s

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the miner should support. But that is already... I don't want to say it takes

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care of itself completely, but it almost does, because the miners can easily

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support many different L2s with minimal involvement from them, and they collect

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transaction fee revenue from all of them. So they just kind of think, well, well, I

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get a lot more money from giving these people a try. It's a pretty big

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improvement over the existing. Now, the existing thing, the situation would be

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like, you know, Vitalik Buterin running Ethereum or whatever, Emin Gün Sirer

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running Avalanche or etc, etc. You have to have all this work going into it. But

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with the idea behind BIP300, it's just all the people will do the work. People

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want to do the development work. They just, there's no avenue for that, right, to

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actually break through. So, like, when, you know, when Vitalik tried to do

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Ethereum, he tried to do it on Bitcoin first. Of course, Bitcoin Cash people

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tried to do large blocks on BTC first. So, actually, development is not the

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bottleneck. And it's actually not even that. On a relative basis, it's not that

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crucial, because it's not. The issue is not development. The issue is like when

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different developers agree who should win. But with BIP300, you don't have to

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do that. So that's a pretty good comment. A bunch of people are asking about Solana

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eCash token. I posted about this earlier in the week, where the idea, you know, I'm

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not exactly sure because you have to weigh a bunch of different things. But I

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think there could be something where we would exchange the real token for fun,

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sort of Solana meme token, maybe with only like a few people, but they could then

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exchange it to the great masses of people. So that might be an easy way of

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getting it done. I'm not sure if that clarifies at all, but it would be like,

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that would be a fun way to maybe try to get some value into the frivolous version,

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the fun version. So yeah, we had a bunch of stuff. Mr. Hoddle said that maybe he

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would join. He tried to join last time. He couldn't because I'd made Vlad the

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co-host. But let's see. I don't know. We can make anyone the co-host, I suppose.

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But yeah, we had a good, we had a really good space last time. It was slow. It's

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always slow in the first few minutes, but then it picks up. And then usually runs

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over before 4pm. One thing tomorrow, we're going to announce our bug bounty

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contest. Oh, we have someone requesting already. Okay, great. And so that's

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happening. It's also going to talk about how our software bit window, it doesn't

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just work with the hard fork. It also works with regular Bitcoin network using

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the real network and also Cygnet and testnet. So people should try it out on

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that basis alone. I think people don't realize a lot of the cool stuff that's in

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there. But yeah, we have someone who requested to speak already. So JK,

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hello.

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How you doing? Yeah. No, I guess I was just the only thing I could think to talk

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about is how a lot of the chains now are just like pivoting to BitVM, which he

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himself has said is like a worse form of BIP300 and has said we should activate

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it. So like, I don't know, it's kind of an interesting thing that even all this

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fancy stuff on like simplicity and which I'm a fan of, but simplicity on liquid,

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they're still pivoting towards like BitVM.

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That's a very good point. And I think the fact that it's worse, actually, when we

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say worse, we don't mean like, but what we mean is that the creator of BitVM,

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Robin Linus, he said many times consistently, you know, on Twitter and on

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recorded video, and he's insisted many times that we should just activate bit

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300. But he made this weird work around BitVM. And it has many disadvantages. I

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think the point of BitVM is that it's technically complicated. So unfortunately,

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we've had this phenomenon in Bitcoin, where we have like a bad criterion, and

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then it redirects everyone's brainpower into something that we don't need. And

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then since monkey see monkey do since people copy each other, it creates this

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mass psychosis on everyone. So it's actually kind of a very big problem. But

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we're just talking earlier today about silent payments versus bit 47. Bit 47 is

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super, super old. There's really nothing wrong with it. But then people would come

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up with other stuff because they have this weird criterion that you can't. The

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initial transaction can I don't know if people a lot of people know about this,

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but there's this cool idea to get rid of addresses in Bitcoin. So you don't need

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any addresses, you don't have to ask anyone for an address. You don't have to

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deal with people copy paste, trying to steal from you. Super, super old, super

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old idea. And then basically, because of Luke Dashjr kind of ruined it because

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he was saying that it because the first transaction is like a the first

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transaction to someone uses like 20% more space, this is like spamming the

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blockchain or whatever, when really, I think it was nothing of the kind, it was

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very efficient use of the blockchain to dramatically improve bitcoins. You know,

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utility as a as money and as a payment network. But that was like 10 years ago.

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And so now we still have all this stuff and people the point is just to show off

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that you can do a thing. So the point of it is just to show off how technically

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impressive you are. And that's the that's the point of it, unfortunately. So we

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live in a culture where we don't want Yeah, we don't want like the better

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thing.

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I think that they also were like trying to emulate like what they couldn't have on

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lightning. And so they like somehow tried like they wanted like recurring

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payments and things like this, like, which I mean, you should be able to do

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that. And there's a million ways to do it. But they just like tried to emulate

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whatever it is like, oh, we wish we could somehow create addresses that have

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payments sent to them like bolt 12. But we haven't been able to implement implement

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that for years. So we're gonna like, do it on the main chain and then also say

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it's private and stuff like this. I don't know. I mean, it's

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Yeah, unfortunately, I think the the Bitcoin what you might call the Bitcoin

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technical community as a group is mostly hostile to Bitcoin, I think maybe

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without realizing it, but there's a huge conflict of interest between just

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building something that works. And something that works permanently, the

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last thing they want is to solve the problem permanently, because then you

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wouldn't need them to like keep working on it. But with something like lightning,

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and they can always have more conferences about an exotic locations. And

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they can always have more conferences about like flood and loot and blah, blah,

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blah, and how this is how we would fix, etc. So they kind of wanted to be an

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endless make work program. And unfortunately, it's just part of the it's

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gotten so big that we have such a big food chain, you know, where we have

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different people. So some are specialists in lightning, some are like podcast

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specialists, some are like, whatever. And so there's no integrity to the whole

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thing. Like people don't necessarily care. You know, like if your job is to

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just sell a Bitcoin book, you mostly care people see you as an expert. And if

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you sell a podcast, and or if you sell a Bitcoin bar, you don't necessarily care

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about like, you know, whatever. So the technical community is no exception. It

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has a lot of people are just kind of showing up.

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One of the things I noticed is that like, one of the best use cases I've seen for

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the the Fedimint type style of Chaumian mints is like not even related to

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money. It was it doesn't work well as like a currency at all. But using it,

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like in there was something that was put out on like onion routing over

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lightning or something like that. But you can totally remove the lightning part

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from it. And that I realized is actually where all this software is kind of like

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built towards in the vein of some network that doesn't contain money. Because like

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they were using these Fedimint eCash-style things not to like produce tokens

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that people would represent as like coins or something like that, but to

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represent like reputation for spamming and work in lieu of like proof of work

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like the like the tour network uses. So it's like all these things just don't

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factor in economics at all. And if you remove the economics, they kind of

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function decently. But I don't think that people really consider that.

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Yeah, it's like other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play? We

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have like a whole set of stuff, where like, this is a whole set of criteria.

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This is what I was trying to explain before, like, for example, like, with

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ordinals, and with the backlash, and with the OP_RETURN backlash, there's a

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whole cohort of people who think it's bad if you ever use Bitcoin for anything. So

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the hatred of consuming block space, or Luke Dashjr's desire to stop anyone

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from consuming any L1 bytes that they don't absolutely need. That just becomes

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a deranged hatred of using Bitcoin, it becomes deranged hatred of, you know,

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paying the transaction fee revenue to miners. This also happened with side

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chains, where people thought, if if the sidechain pays a lot of money, then

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miners might want to run it. And since they have since when they run the

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software, this costs some money, they thought this contributes to mining

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centralization. And so the argument is, whenever miners can get any more money

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doing anything, this contributes to mining centralization. And a lot of smart

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people believe this, even though it literally makes no sense whatsoever. And

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it's complete nonsense, because it ends up you end up just saying, like, well,

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every time the miners are using the heat to heat a swimming pool, or anytime they

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do the demand management programs, or really anytime that Bitcoin difficulty

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adjusts upward at all, and we have an increase in the security budget, and we

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have an increase in the proof of work, backing Bitcoin, all those things used to

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be good. But now, because you have a mistake, you have a you basically, it's

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like you're doing math, and you dropped a negative one somewhere. So these people

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have like a wrong view. And as a result, it's exactly as you were saying, where

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people have to evolve away from doing everything cool. Like the cool thing

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would be if the VPNs and if all this stuff used actual money based tokens

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instead of reputation, because money is kind of like a reputation, but more

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reliable and more scalable. So the all this stuff would work better if it

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actually had actual money behind it. But instead, it has to evolve away from

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something useful has to evolve towards being useless. So this is just where we

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are. It's just many, there are many examples.

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For the centralization stuff with miners, it's like, I mean, the difficulty

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adjustment, in essence, is firing, like a large percentage of the non performant

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miners. So you would expect that the performant miners would not be some like,

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ragtag group, but actually be like specialized at whatever it is they're

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doing. And so, I mean, I really like the idea that BIP300 is just making that

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specialty away from just burning electricity and towards adding concrete

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value for fees, you know?

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Yeah, exactly. There's this like, it's kind of like very easy to sell this

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notion of, well, hey, anyone can mine like we're all in this together. And

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even the little guy can mine. Which is, it's unfortunate, because it kind of

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sounds a little nice, but it does end up being like some kind of creepy version

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of communism or whatever, where it's like, no matter how underperforming

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people are, they don't get they're not. And it's also completely contrary to

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the design of Bitcoin, which is the difficulty adjustment every two weeks

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resets it to the average. So everyone's who's below average is now unprofitable.

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And it's just, it's very bizarre, because it's pretty basic control. It's

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like a thermostat in your house. You know, as soon as you cross beneath the

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expected amount, you're out because this is the only way to measure the

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thermodynamic, the purchasing power of the blocks and, and you having the

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strength of numbers effect. But yeah, so we have these nice sounding ideas, but

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they're not true. And they're not like necessary. And they're not there, they

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end up being counterproductive, because what you end up saying is anything that

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where even if you're not, you're not, you're not, you're not, you're not

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saying is anything that were even if miners earn more money, in fact,

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especially the argument was, if you could carefully follow it, because it

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which is hard, it's very hard to follow, because it's a ridiculous argument. But

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if you can carefully follow it, it was some miners make so much money from the

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L2 that they might run it, paying a cost that is less than what they're

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earning. Since otherwise, they just ignore it. So it's like, oh, they'll get

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so much money, they're gonna be they're gonna make they're gonna be making it's

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kind of like a Donald Trump ism or something where it's like, oh, they're

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gonna be making so much money. They're gonna be saying, Oh, no, you know, how

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did it ever get so bad? For us? It's like, so then it flips the whole security

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budget thing around, too, because all this stuff was basic before, we want

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miners to collect all the fees, we want miners to collect all the transactions

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into blocks, we want them to collect all the fees, we want them to spend it on

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proof of work so that we have high deterrence for doing all that was basic

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stuff that everyone believed, then it switched at some point, it switched over

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to like, miners shouldn't do anything like miners just shouldn't, they should

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just like kind of be ignored. And this idea that they should just timestamp

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blindly. And I think this doesn't make any correct doesn't make any sense.

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Because like, practically, the only people who are on the pulse of whether

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or not the network and software is running correctly are the miners. That's

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why like a lot of people don't know that there are these like private block

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propagation networks that have to exist. Otherwise, you would get way more orphan

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blocks and like people just like don't even know and like Matt Corral was

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running it for years and now had to spin it back up. And like miners actually

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know what is working in the network and with the software at a real tangible

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level that like, even like an economic node doesn't necessarily need to have

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been understanding of.

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Well, ironically, the the idea of many, like of these Puritan small blocker

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types. And again, I'm an L1 small blocker, and I was and I still am. But

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like some of these people like a Peter Todd, who think that the miners should

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just blindly timestamp everything and that they shouldn't care too much about

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what's happening. This, ironically, they make the exact same mistake that the

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Bitcoin SV people made, which is that if all you want to do is timestamp it,

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everyone can already do that. So first of all, you could use some like open

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timestamps, abandoned by Peter, but you could also just timestamp any other way.

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And you could even like take the hash of a document and like publish it, take out

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an ad in you know, the New York Times or whatever, and publish the hash there,

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this was done, people used to do this. And so if all you want is timestamping,

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that was always allowed. And you can timestamp an unlimited amount of data in

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Bitcoin's blockchain. You can hash you can take Lord of the Rings extended

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edition, 4k version or whatever. And you can hash that and you can put the hash

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in. So if all you want to do is hash, then that's fine. So that was always

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allowed. You know, the people who want the blind timestamp and they want miners

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not to know anything. That's fine. But that misses I think that really misses

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the point is Satoshi's invention. Satoshi's invention was, there is a set

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of data that we have agreed, we've commonly all agreed that, you know, we're

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all going to validate and store and provide and whatever. But one thing is

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that the requirements are, so you got to make it in the umbrella. That's what I'm

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saying. So this is like the when the when the people like Peter Todd or

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whatever, they try to push stuff out of that umbrella, they are just they're

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missing like the point of the invention. And then they make yet another bizarre

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mistake where they say that BIP300 is a block size increase, because someone out

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there might run, you know, the L2 node. But if that's the case, then you know,

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Ethereum is a Bitcoin block size increase and a Namecoin is a Bitcoin

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block size increase. And then they have another bizarre argument like we sort of

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discussed already, which is anytime mining costs go up, that increases minor

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centralization. But if that's the case, then every time the difficulty adjusts

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upward, then so really, none of them have any idea what they're talking about at

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all. It's really been depressing to learn just how like completely confused and

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clueless all of them are. And sometimes even on stage, they ask, they get asked

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basic questions. And so anyway, a lot of confusion out there.

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It just seems that like, there is a sort of like more fatal flaw that is being

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ignored in like the cultural or governance level that like prevents something even

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like CoinNews from being added, which is like a super basic feature, but it just

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has you have to think about the users more in order to add it.

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That's cool. You like CoinNews. I don't know if you and I have like spoken before.

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Yeah, we have. Yeah.

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Yeah, it's CoinNews is my idea. It's completely cosmetic idea. It has no, it is no changes to Bitcoin like the protocol, but just to the front end. And I think it's a really, really good idea. And it's a lot of fun.

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And all it does is if you broadcast an OP_RETURN with, and I had this idea and we implemented this idea long before this OP_RETURN drama and I removed, we removed the OP_RETURN standardness limit, like maybe back in like 2019, I removed that from our, we had like our test Drivechain software that we were just tinkering with at the time, not in that not really taking too seriously.

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But long ago, I was like, this OP_RETURN limit is irrational and a complete waste of time. So all the people who are just learning, if you just learned about it in 2026, and now you have some kind of opinion about it, how it's, how it's bad or whatever, then you got a lot of catching up to do in my humble opinion.

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But what CoinNews is, is you broadcast an OP_RETURN with an unusually large fee, and you have like a little code in the beginning. And again, nothing stops you from doing this now. But what CoinNews does is it breaks apart scans and finds all these messages as they come in, and it sorts them into categories. So you can put them into categories.

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So you can have little categories that people use for mutual convenience, so they don't bump into each other. And then it will sort them based on what the, what fee you paid, and it will display like the little OP_RETURN stuff. So this is a great way of, if you have some news that you want to announce, it's a simple way to do it.

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It's a super cool idea. And it's doesn't involve a soft fork or anything. It's just like a, like a cosmetic thing. And it gives people a reason to run a full node. And makes running a full node kind of fun because you never miss out on the latest news. You know, you don't have that FOMO, because you can only get the CoinNews from the blockchain. So you could theoretically get it from someone else's running a node. But yeah, it's like a cool thing. And you can see these CoinNews. Great idea. Perfectly harmless and fun idea.

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You'd totally expect stuff like that to be added, though. Like, I mean, like, so anyway, that I just was pointing out, I guess that the fact there are nothing like no equivalent ideas being talked about or proposed just kind of shows that they're not really like writing in the business of writing software. But yeah, like being like authorities of some sort.

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Yeah, I'm very disappointed. So we also came up with this thing. This I came up with this a long time ago, maybe in 2019. Also, it's called deniability. And the idea of deniability, again, this is not a soft fork. This isn't any kind of dramatic thing. It's just something in the software where it will schedule a bunch, it will automatically just click like a button. And it will automatically schedule a bunch of transactions from yourself to yourself.

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But they'll look in a very convincing way, they'll look like they are someone spending money to other people and making change addresses and stuff. So it looks like you're getting rid of your Bitcoin, and then you don't have it anymore. So it's like losing it in a boating accident or whatever, except on chain, there's really a transaction getting rid of it.

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So in every single way, it appears as though you sent it away. And you can even like set it to like, do this many times, like, you know, while you're asleep, or it will delay random amounts of time. So like, you can like click the button and go like walking around town. And if the you know, the Russian mafia is following you, or the US government's following you or whatever it is, they're tracking you via satellite, they can see that you're buying ice cream or whatever.

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And just hanging out at the park. And meanwhile, this money is moving around, it looks as though someone else really has it, and they are they are spending it, not you. And this is just a completely clever little idea. And of course, it's a good idea. And it doesn't harm anyone. So of course, it's not merged into Bitcoin Core. And even my friend Alex K, who's the holds the patent on Google autocomplete.

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He was trying to get it into Bitcoin Core, like for years. And I was like, Listen, you don't understand, like, they're just crazy people. And they're not, you know, they don't have any good ideas in. And he was trying, he tried many times to get it in. And then there were people like Luke. And again, I mostly like Luke, but I just think relying on Luke's opinion is a bad idea, because he's very often wrong. And as he was in this case, because Luke was saying, I don't see how that gives anyone any privacy.

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And it was like, well, it doesn't give you like a certain any, it doesn't give you any of a certain kind of privacy. But it does give you some because when now when the people show up, when the whatever the rough Russian mafia breaks down the door to your house, you can just tell them, I don't have any Bitcoin, I spent it all. And they don't really know that you're lying. Now, does that help? To what extent does that help?

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A little bit, not not completely, because you know, they may not believe you. But you know, it does, it is something and all it is, is just a little button, you have to click in the software. And we added that also, that's also in Bitwindow. And you can use that you can use our Bitwindow is regular Bitcoin Core. And yeah, again, this is like, something that a lot of people would like, because it is awkward, like, even when you just get any money from anyone, if you get a large UTXO balance from someone.

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And then you pay someone else, they can see on the blockchain that, oh, yeah, this guy paid me out of like a 50 BTC UTXO, they still have 49.999, whatever. So at that point, many people are tempted to to say, Well, I got to spend this 49 to myself. So it does give me the impression that Luke Dashjr doesn't really use Bitcoin for anything.

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That's the weird thing is that like, I think we need feedback from the actual users, the developers should be serving the needs of the users, as should the miners. Instead, I don't know, we have like, we've lived through like a 10 year period where just everyone is just virtue signaling. And there's very few people working on problems that actually affect them. And a lot of people just want to be like a superstar. Working on BitVM, right? Because of course, who's gonna no one's gonna ever going to use BitVM.

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So no one's ever going to complain, since they will never have any users anyway.

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That's a classic trope in the DeFi space. They used to call it dApps. And nobody would use them except the people who made them. But yeah, no, I mean, I think like certain ideas, like even that are controversial, like Shad and having like, these are actually end up being features like, when you have like, oh, the miner centralization, I think that ends up being a feature. And it's a feature that you can't just add with software, you actually have to make commitments to an entire different

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chain in order to make them. And I think that any significant change is just what is what is being sort of like fought against.

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Yeah, I have a different theory that I've explained to some people about like, we're just living through a period of stasis. And people don't like anything new. And they don't want to stick their neck out. And then they also know, like, it's open season, like you get a hunting license for anyone who does anything different, because then you have the

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it because when anyone when stuff starts to change, every change is inherently like a critique of all the existing people. And so it's like, well, should we like, a lot of stuff's going to change as a result, some people are going to lose status as a result of the change. And then maybe many, many, many people will benefit. But they're not in as much of a, you know, the benefits are diffused and the costs are reduced.

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So, I mean, aside from those, I guess, like opponents of like a fork, like, people like, how would you categorize like, I don't know, Shinobi or like, Cal, any of these people who kind of like, are largely just like, thought leaders type people who oppose changes, because like, I don't know that that seems obvious as to why you would, you know, you wouldn't necessarily lack, like,

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lose your position of authority or something like that to anybody. But anyway, I don't know, this is more so just like,

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Well, I think many of these people, so Shinobi in particular, he was like a chief Drivechain hater for years. So now if Drivechain ever succeeds anywhere, it'll just be, I think, like, very embarrassing for him. And as it should. So he talked a big talk. But of course, none of these people really know anything. Everyone's copying someone else's test. So they get involved at first and they say, Oh,

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OP_RETURN is bad, or BIP300 is bad. And then now they're in too deep. Because they didn't want to have to walk it back. So they just hope the idea dies. This is another part of the bias against change, which is if you if you blockade the change, the experiment is never performed, and then no one has ever proven to be wrong. So that's why it's always a safe option, especially for the cowards.

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I think you asked questions like a series of questions on the mailing list, and like didn't really get any responses. Like trying to quiz people and if they actually understood the idea that they were like, so against

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Hey, test your knowledge. I had like a little blog post about that. But then the other the more important questions were when it's like in 2022, February, I think, people were talking about this and that. And this came up again. And people said, Oh, well, we don't want to do Drivechains because of mining centralization reason or something, or but there was again, the ZMN guy. And he had phrased it like a really, like a bizarre way. So then I kind of jumped in. And I was like, Oh, but that's not true at all. And then he's like, Oh,

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and then people said, Well, we should do lightning instead. And then I asked like, just like two questions or something that were like, actually, by the criterion that you use lightning is like, like 1000 times worse than Drivechain actually by the by your own criterion. And I never got any answer. No one ever known. None of the lightning people ever answered this question, which later became my blog, two months later became the blog post lightning limitations. And that was in

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2022. And that was when it was after I did that. Now, I'm not saying that I'm the solely responsible. And I'm the only one with a brain around here. And everyone else is a phony. But the timing is that I did that, and then published this post. And then they talked about it at

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a conference, or the big conference to a giant room full of people. And then all you started to see all these lightning limitations, panels, and then he had Bitcoin season two, or whatever. So you know, I'm not saying that I'm solely responsible. But I have

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I have seen that, like happen in real time, though, that like, I or somebody else says an idea. And then like, literally, it could be like an hour later, some lightning thing occurs, and they bring up this niche point or so. But yeah, I, I mean, I think I, in general, like the methods of communication have even kind of broken down since I've been like, following the mailing list and everything

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else, like, it's just like, not really the same level of contributions that ever occur, like the discussions that end up being meaningful, like, you can still go back to like Bitcoin talk. And there's more significant contributions there than any anywhere on the mailing list, realistically.

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Yeah, I completely agree. Okay, wait, we had someone request auto incentive, I thought. Yeah, I don't know if it worked. Yeah. Oh, wait. No, here.

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address, which you are able to spend, let's say one Satoshi per UTXO and you have 500,000 UTXO in the address, you are not able to spend them at once. And I was wondering if the new fork will increase that I think it's like 100,000 bytes per transaction.

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You're referring to the dust. I'm sorry, you're talking about if you have many small UTXOs.

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Yeah, it's not many, many small UTXOs, you cannot bind them into a single one by doing only a single transaction. That's a limitation of Bitcoin. I think, like, SegWit has around 60 something bytes. And the new Taproot has like 57 if I'm not wrong.

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I think he's talking about the discount, the witness discount.

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No, no, I think he's talking about okay, the limitation is a result of the fact that there's only so much space in the block.

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Exactly.

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And if you want to use the block space, you have to pay for it. So many of the UTXOs are not economical. And the only way to do that is with more block space. So indirectly, BIP300 does solve that because it lets you escape on different L2s that have more block space.

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And that actually it lets you have different block chains that have different block sizes of all different shapes and sizes. And so in that way, we're all using like we could use different networks.

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So like, if you had like, like a political activist would be more interested in like a small block privacy type network, like a Zcash style network, and then maybe with the coffee payments, it could even be the same person like there could be like a someone who's an activist, they could be paying for coffee using a large block out something that's like a Bitcoin Cash L2 or like a Solana L2 or like a Bitcoin SV L2, something like that.

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They could be buying coffee with that. And then, you know, five minutes later, they could be on a different network, you know, building their flakka empire as they used to call it on Bitcoin Uncensored.

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Um, so that is important that we do that. And people complain about that. Or they say, Oh, that's a, they say, like, well, aren't you just cheating by having all these other nodes that are more expensive. But the thing is, we already have all of that. We already have all of that stuff. So we already have like, you know, like the Solana already exists in the world. So someone's out there running Solana node. So if, if, if they can do if it's not forbidden by the laws of physics, then we might as well make it a Bitcoin project.

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A lot of people miss that. It's extremely basic point, I think. But there you go.

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Basically, you can spin up to I think, like 6000 SegWit transactions for the four megabytes block. But that's, that's not enough if you want to, I don't know, maybe develop a game or something on the network, which is completely unchanged. So it won't be able to do it.

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Yeah, but you know how we will get there, though, is if software continues to improve, if we continue to grow the network, and we continue to grow the economy, then will people get better at writing software over time.

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So like, let me give you I can give you many concrete examples of this, like, one is that bandwidth used to be the bottleneck back in the first block size war. So bandwidth was the bottleneck resource where we could not increase the block size.

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But actually, bandwidth speeds have grown so much that they just passively as a result of increased internet speed. Bandwidth is not the bottleneck. And no one I don't know if anyone has even bothered to check this as recently. But a different, similar related situation is that in 2015, the software was having trouble.

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There was a I think, what was that guy's name? I can't remember. He wasn't. He gave a talk that was like the soft underbelly of Bitcoin. And he was an engineer. And this was like, I don't know, early in the scaling Bitcoin conference era. And they're talking about how it's hard to optimize the software to process all these downloaded process.

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Something like Peter or something, maybe. I don't know. Sorry, who? No, no, no, no, it's a different guy. And I think it was a Blockstream employee, in fact. But so they were talking about it's very hard to optimize the software to actually process the existing amount of transactions. But we ran a contest last summer to optimize one of our L2s.

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And we got it, we got it very, very optimized. And you can see the results for yourself. Just another thing to point out is that like, you know, Solana, when it first came out, they were like, we don't care about decentralization or the node cost. So they were very, very, very ambitious, like what you're talking about, like build a game or whatever on the, you know, fast, super fast block time.

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mempools also. So Solana doesn't have mempools. So it's completely different thing.

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But here's the thing is, they tried that. They probably, you know, cut, you know, they had to cut a lot of corners, take a lot of risks, they probably had to suffer along the way. But then by the time you get to like 2023, the end of 2023, November, I think 2023, I looked it up. And it still costs a lot of money, like it costs like $18,000 a year to run a Solana full node, and you needed like this huge array of like RAM and stuff.

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They, you know, they, they hired a lot of people, and they hired a lot of PhDs and computers improved. And so they got it down. You know, there's a pretty big difference from infinity, because the something doesn't exist. So what's the cost? What's the cost of Starlink in 1885? You know, the year 1885? It's infinity, because you can't get to space. And there's no internet and there's no stuff.

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But I think we will get there to your question of like, is will there be just like, unbelievably, you know, unbelievably high, large block size, or niche or whatever block, you know, a blockchain that could run a game? We I don't think we are there yet.

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But I think we'll get there in like five years, like maybe like, you know, the more people actually work on the software, and the more people actually use the software, more people actually understand the software is like what JK was saying, where no one even talks about anything real anymore. It's all just fake stuff, optics, and, you know, kissing up to people for more open sets grants and or whatever. And so no one's even talking about anything real.

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But if everyone's actually using the stuff and work in engineering,

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it will get there. And eventually, because the hard drives will improve, the bandwidth will improve the RAM, everything will improve. So the CPU, everything will be improving. And so yeah, we will be, we will eventually we'll get to terabyte size blocks, and etc, you know, tiny fraction of a second block times and whatever.

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One of the questions like people were asking me about the fork was like, eCash was basically that, like, Oh, what is like the business use case of decentralization? And this is like something that I guess I also found hard to defend in this abstract sense of like, they were wondering why, even having like, I guess, the most efficient, like implementation, I think of having things be decentralized, and also having big blocks, like, which is what BIP300 does, like, what is even the purpose of decentralization? And

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like, that's just something that used to be sort of like, I guess, assumed that, like, that's the whole goal of the project, the start of it. And I think people selected for Bitcoin because of it. And then it sort of tilted to being like, well, the developers know, and so that's enough. And then I think the developers stopped wanting conversation because they couldn't defend it. But I think the whole point of things like that is that, like, it's an axiom, you're not supposed to have to defend that fundamental of a basis of the

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project. And I think like, a lot of the things on eCash are changing and adding those and reasserting those fundamental axioms, where it's like, sometimes you just have to, like, clear out the people in the room to only the people who actually think and believe that fundamental basis thing. And yeah.

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It's a very good point. Unless you want to say something on incentives.

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Yeah, the thing is, in my opinion, the true decentralization for people is just to be sure that they won't lose their money if something happens. That's the first thing. The second thing is for them to be sure that no one will come and say, you're not allowed to spend this because of this. That's, I think those are the only two things the real user is concerned about when he or she is saying decentralization.

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That's all. The rest, it's up to the devs, I think.

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So maybe if I go into a coma for five years, I must be sure that when I get off the coma, I will have my eCash or Bitcoin or Ethereum or something just to be sure.

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And we can do this with two things, open sourcing the code and allowing everybody to, I don't know, to see the information is correct. And if it's not, to be able to fork the chain and do their own stuff. That's the thing.

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Yeah, JK, you raise a very good point about like, it's very hard to articulate the benefit of decentralization. There's a wide, I think there's a number of different reasons for that. One is that people don't want to say it out loud because, but this is only one. So I think people are sometimes a little too shy when they get to this one. But even though they should be a little bit of shying away from explaining it. But okay, it's kind of a little bit like saying,

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um, okay, it reminds me of this joke from The Office. And I don't know, this is The Office season one, the American version. And there's the healthcare episode. And Dwight is in charge of healthcare. So he, he cuts it and then everyone's mad. So he then adds more healthcare. And then he asked people to write down what, what like diseases they have, basically. And people are like, that's confidential.

317
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And so it's kind of like this, you can't, the people who really need privacy, they have a good reason, but they can't say it out loud. Because it's a private matter. So for whatever it is, this is an abstract way of kind of talking about it. But, you know, you can't ask people, oh, yeah.

318
00:44:09,289 --> 00:44:33,289
Like, it's like when the teacher talks to the students and says, Oh, are people afraid? Are people afraid to talk to me or afraid to criticize me or whatever? There's like a lot of things that you just kind of can't, they're just difficult to talk about. And the benefit of decentralization is one of them, because the history of trying to make software, you know, cash on the internet, which goes back many years.

319
00:44:34,289 --> 00:44:49,289
The issue is that you had stuff like Liberty Reserve, eGold, stuff like that, and Chum, Chum, DigiCash, which was like mismanaged.

320
00:44:50,289 --> 00:45:06,289
So you had all this other stuff that was like, it fell apart for whatever reason. But of course, Liberty Reserve and eGold, they were shut down, like by the US government. And that's part of why people wanted something decentralized, because they didn't want something where it would be.

321
00:45:07,289 --> 00:45:09,289
Yes, welcome back.

322
00:45:09,289 --> 00:45:24,289
I'm back. I got a couple questions. So, okay, great. You said it was important to have it SHA-256. Can I ask, like, do you have a reason why? Like, what, like, why not at this point?

323
00:45:25,289 --> 00:45:49,289
I got a couple questions. So, okay, great. You said it was important to have it SHA-256. Can I ask, like, do you have a reason why? Like, what, like, why not a different hashing algorithm or maybe even merge mine with Bitcoin itself? Why? Why go through a lower difficulty to preserve the chain? Like, why not just do a merge mine or a different hashing algorithm?

324
00:45:50,289 --> 00:45:59,289
Well, if you did merge mining, then that would ensure that the coin is not a good competitor, because it has to always keep the host alive.

325
00:46:00,289 --> 00:46:12,289
Well, how do you explain Dogecoin? Dogecoin is the merge mine with Litecoin. And I'm pretty sure Dogecoin is the dominant chain there, right? It's not Litecoin.

326
00:46:13,289 --> 00:46:16,289
Yeah, but Dogecoin is helping Litecoin survive.

327
00:46:17,289 --> 00:46:24,289
Oh, so in your case, you don't want to help Bitcoin survive that this is the dominant chain?

328
00:46:25,289 --> 00:46:44,289
I think when you, when people step into the ring to compete, that it's, you know, it's inappropriate for them to try to, it's like, what if you wanted to play anything else, like poker, or you wanted to play Warcraft three against someone, you know, you're supposed to help your own side win, you're not supposed to, like, help the other side win.

329
00:46:45,289 --> 00:47:03,289
So I think, as far as being a competitor, you would not want to do anything that makes it so that because think about it doesn't actually help anyone. Because even if the then the project succeeds, it doesn't, you know, I can't fully succeed in reward the people who believed in it.

330
00:47:04,289 --> 00:47:11,289
And then even if the project fails, it was kind of like it was never really, there was never an opportunity to I'm sorry, I hit a button. Someone else wants to talk.

331
00:47:11,289 --> 00:47:29,289
Are you gonna have like a, like a Bcash difficulty adjustment to like, what levels like where do you think you're gonna have enough? Because it's crazy, man, like doing a low difficulty in a world where there's already crap loads of ASICs out there, to me is insane.

332
00:47:29,289 --> 00:47:56,289
Like, I don't know how that works. Because at any point, anyone could come on the network, and just be the dominant player. And then you got a lot of like, shit to deal with at that point. It's like, why not just be like a CPU friendly coin, like some kind of like, you know, like Monero does it or something, if you want the plebs mining started out a little difficulty, or GPU friendly, I don't know.

333
00:47:56,289 --> 00:47:59,289
Trying to say why SHA-256.

334
00:48:26,289 --> 00:48:45,290
I would just stick to SHA-256 is because it would make it so that all the Bitcoin miners out there. They're not victims. If eCash gets really, really big. And they just, if you switch hashing algorithms, and eCash gets really, really big, then all the SHA-256 miners will like lose a ton of money.

335
00:48:46,290 --> 00:48:57,290
And I don't really want that to happen. And I don't want them to be thinking about after it's proven to be a big success, activating BIP300 on BTC, I'd rather just have them click over.

336
00:48:59,290 --> 00:49:03,290
I see. So it's about the miners. You worry about the miners.

337
00:49:05,290 --> 00:49:10,290
All right. Well, yeah, the people basically invested in SHA-256 hardware.

338
00:49:11,290 --> 00:49:26,290
Right. But I mean, like, how many SHA-256 blockchains are there that they could mine? I mean, back in the day, it was they're basically all of them. Right. And then slowly, but surely started changing hashing algorithms.

339
00:49:27,290 --> 00:49:37,290
And I remember you had MazaCoin that ended up being merge-mined with Bitcoin. You had a bunch of that. And none of them like they like I don't want eCash forked away.

340
00:49:38,290 --> 00:49:55,290
So I created a site called fork.lol, where you could track all the double spends. Like, when you will become the minority chain, you are a much less secure chain, like talking about incentives, then like, why wouldn't if this got popular, if this ended up getting some kind of volume on an exchange?

341
00:49:56,290 --> 00:50:03,290
Why wouldn't a large miner try to double spend like reorg that, you know, the blockchains or whatever, you know, you know what I'm saying?

342
00:50:04,290 --> 00:50:11,290
Yeah, but you know, it's like Bitcoin SV had less than one half of a percent of the BTC hash rate.

343
00:50:12,290 --> 00:50:23,290
Well, that's because really, if you only have one node, I mean, like who ran a BSV node, like no one knew anything, no one could sync to chain tip on BSV. That's why exchanges and everybody delisted it.

344
00:50:24,290 --> 00:50:42,290
I don't know why they listed it. Obviously, I didn't really support Bitcoin SV. But I just know that it had a very low hash. It had a very low price. And so it must have had a very low hash rate. And but it was SHA-256 mined. So yeah, I don't know.

345
00:50:43,290 --> 00:50:44,290
Where is it today?

346
00:50:44,290 --> 00:50:47,290
Well, that's, you don't think that's the reason why Bitcoin SV failed?

347
00:50:48,290 --> 00:50:50,290
Say Bcash, what about BCH?

348
00:50:52,290 --> 00:51:12,290
Well, BCH changed, but they were SHA-256 mined and they made a bunch of changes. I don't know if any of those changes helped them a lot. I absolutely 100% agree that at first, you won't know, you'd be kind of flying dark. And you don't know what the real equilibrium is.

349
00:51:13,290 --> 00:51:33,290
Difficulty should be so very, very early on, like when you first launched the project, that will be like a chaotic moment. And I have considered like something where like for the first three months, you could like program in something where it's like you can like manually set the difficulty to something under some conditions.

350
00:51:34,290 --> 00:51:45,290
And then like after three months, it like deactivates or something like that. This is this has nothing to do with the long run. And this just has everything to do with trying to guess at what the market price will be.

351
00:51:46,290 --> 00:51:59,290
How does an exchange list that? How many confirmations would you recommend an exchange to consider before a finality? Like, how long?

352
00:52:00,290 --> 00:52:02,290
How do you get demand?

353
00:52:03,290 --> 00:52:10,290
How do you get miners mining it if they can't sell it for dollars to pay for the electricity costs?

354
00:52:10,290 --> 00:52:16,290
Well, I mean, don't you think you're being like, kind of like, you know, it's great to be concerned, but you're like,

355
00:52:17,290 --> 00:52:43,290
I'm incentivized to see this UTXO as valuable as possible. So like, you say I'm not a fan, but I am a fan. Like, I think the right thing to do is if you want to do something different in crypto, you should fork Bitcoin UTXO set. Because at least this way, you don't get to print your own money. So I think this is the way to do it. Like, I think I wish more people did it this way. I just, I just think that

356
00:52:44,290 --> 00:53:08,290
Don't you think you're like, maybe you're just kind of assuming it will be like, so like, Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin SV, they were listed for a while for years on exchanges. And they had, and Bitcoin Cash made it to number two on CoinMarketCap when it like as soon as it debuted in November 2017. So you're acting like this is like a foregone conclusion that it'll be like

357
00:53:08,290 --> 00:53:37,290
BCH had Roger Ver, he had Bitcoin.com. They had hundreds of millions of dollars in marketing revenue. Like it was, that was a pretty big thing that they did. They lost a lot of money on that. So yeah, I mean, sure, granted, if you could get listed on an exchange at a really low difficulty, and there's buying pressure there, then all right. But the way it is right now, I'm in the opinion of that it's going to fork and not like, like nothing's going to happen.

358
00:53:38,290 --> 00:53:52,290
Like, it's just it's unless you have some kind of plan to fork away, and have a viable block reward, where exchanges could list it. Like, I think it's, it's, it becomes nothing.

359
00:53:52,290 --> 00:54:21,290
Well, first of all, we have an L2 that does let you do the exchange, even without. But then also I have, you know, I've spoken to some exchanges that will list that, you know, there are definitely a few that with 100% certainty will list the coin. And I don't know if about, you know, Coinbase or whatever, if they'll list it on day one. But, you know, I barely even started because we just kind of announced it like a few weeks ago. And there's still plenty of months to go. And a lot of people are still just hearing about it.

360
00:54:22,290 --> 00:54:43,290
For the first time. So I think it's premature to assume either way that the but I know some exchanges will list the coin. Now the question is, you know, who will be buying the coin. But of course, people are already buying the coin now. So I know that there's some demand for that higher than

361
00:54:44,290 --> 00:55:10,290
You would have to get mined. So like, all right, there's obviously there's replay protection, right? That's a whole new thing. So you have a split. Say an exchange does the split for you. So you already have UTXOs on Coinbase, they'll do the split for you. But what if I don't have Bitcoin on Coinbase, and I just mine some, because it's a little difficulty, and I want to send to an exchange?

362
00:55:10,290 --> 00:55:17,290
What exchange is going to allow you to send it to it? How many confirmations is it going to take for before they consider that like, fine?

363
00:55:41,290 --> 00:56:03,290
I don't know exactly how long it will be, but there'll be a problem where the difficulty may not adjust for more than two weeks. So the blocks might be infrequent. And so yeah, there will be like some problems at first, but they're not, they're just related to the difficulty like reaching equilibrium. They're not like,

364
00:56:04,290 --> 00:56:25,290
I really don't see like any reason to just say this is like a complete disaster. It's really not. It's really not a very important part. This is like a simple detail like there's plenty of stuff can happen in the first week that has no bearing on whether or not the project survives in the long run.

365
00:56:26,290 --> 00:56:45,290
All right, but say, do you have any plans if say, it is crazy or God, you know, there's a pretty there's like a 5-10 block reorg or something happened where it's just, there's havoc. Are you planning on like, changing the hashing algorithm at that point? Like, are you just going to continue going as whatever happens happens?

366
00:56:46,290 --> 00:57:06,290
Well, I think we'll learn a lot about how the right way to launch a hard fork, no matter what I do. So people then they can look at it and say, maybe this was the right decision. This was the wrong decision. I mean, if we change the hashing algorithm, that almost wouldn't help because there would still be all this hashing equipment out route that we don't know anything about.

367
00:57:07,290 --> 00:57:13,290
Yeah, but I mean, like, if you make it a CPU friendly, then you know, it's, it doesn't matter at that point. Like, you know,

368
00:57:14,290 --> 00:57:21,290
Well, yeah, you buy yourself some time and you kind of reset the clock until people make FPGAs and they make ASICs for that.

369
00:57:21,290 --> 00:57:43,290
But at that point, the chain is valuable enough for somebody to go and make an FPGA and ASIC, right? Like, if you're not going to start making FPGAs, if they don't think the chain is going to survive very long, but if there's actual demand, and the difficulty keeps going up, and it looks like there's more and more hash power that's being thrown at it, then yeah, of course. That's not a bad thing. At least it's organic that way.

370
00:57:44,290 --> 00:58:05,290
Yeah, I agree that you would want to make it you'd want it to ramp up, like, in a commensurate way. But where I mean, so for example, with Bitcoin cash, the highest price it had was on like basically on day one, and then it price fell from then from then on. So actually, your theory is that the highest is going to go up

371
00:58:05,290 --> 00:58:29,290
The highest price was when Coinbase listed it. That was when it went off through the roof. Like that was when it went to like half a Bitcoin, I believe. But again, there was hundreds of millions of dollars involved in that. Like Bitmain and Roger, that was a coordinated effort to get that pumped, especially on fork day. And then after Coinbase listed it, then it went crazy. It went to half a Bitcoin.

372
00:58:29,290 --> 00:58:36,290
But right after that, it just did whatever the other old coin does. Same song and dance.

373
00:59:00,290 --> 00:59:03,290
So I'm saying let's imagine there were no exchanges or there were no miners.

374
00:59:04,290 --> 00:59:22,290
Right. But you're comparing to Bitcoin on Genesis when Satoshi launched it. The problem is, is that mining Bitcoin at that point didn't cost a lot of money. You know, the difficulty was so low that your CPU was not that much money to burn. Now, if you're starting this at a higher difficulty, and there's no way

375
00:59:22,290 --> 00:59:24,290
No, but we're starting at the low. We're lowering the difficulty.

376
00:59:25,290 --> 00:59:27,290
Right. But you're not starting it at one.

377
00:59:28,290 --> 00:59:29,290
Yeah, right.

378
00:59:30,290 --> 00:59:50,290
You're still going to be starting, you still need to, I mean, it's still going to take power. Those miners still have to pay an electric bill. You have to be able to sell those UTXOs to pay the bill. When Bitcoin first started out, there were no exchanges, but also didn't cost anything to fucking mine the Bitcoin. Like there's no power bill to really

379
00:59:50,290 --> 01:00:02,290
I know, but think about it like this. It's like, you kind of have it both ways, you know, if, if the price is really low, and the eCash block is not worth very much.

380
01:00:03,736 --> 01:00:33,736
But the difficulty is also low, then it's still profitable to mine. So that particular problem, that's not a problem. But what is a problem is that we're showing up into this world with this, this, this big ecology, where there is all this, these ASIC chips and stuff around. As far as I'm concerned, this is just all this problem is, is just a question of how to actually reach the equilibrium difficulty. And it's totally a temporary problem that can only last, you know,

381
01:00:33,736 --> 01:01:03,736
I would say like one to three months total. And so it is true that this is like a rough, this will be a weird start. It's only a weird, it has nothing to do with the fundamentals of the idea whatsoever. And it has everything to do with turning the project on in a world that already has exchanges and ASICs and pools, and, and kind of like trying to leapfrog the, you know, like, it's kind of like, you know, if you introduced tanks, you know,

382
01:01:03,736 --> 01:01:06,375
people are fighting each other in, in,

383
01:01:06,375 --> 01:01:10,816
in rural Australia with like spearmen and then you just introduced tanks and it'll

384
01:01:10,816 --> 01:01:12,816
be like, it's like a weird adjustment at first.

385
01:01:13,176 --> 01:01:17,575
So I'm open to doing some like thing,

386
01:01:17,575 --> 01:01:19,216
like one idea I had, I didn't want,

387
01:01:19,216 --> 01:01:21,975
I don't want to like just riff off random ideas cause it like makes it look

388
01:01:22,075 --> 01:01:25,176
undisciplined and weird. But, but yeah,

389
01:01:25,176 --> 01:01:29,556
and I am aware of this issue and I think it is, so I think I mentioned already,

390
01:01:29,556 --> 01:01:30,615
one of them is like,

391
01:01:30,615 --> 01:01:33,896
you could have something for like the first three months where it's possible to

392
01:01:33,896 --> 01:01:38,896
manually set either manually checkpoint and block or manually set the

393
01:01:39,335 --> 01:01:40,056
difficulty.

394
01:01:40,056 --> 01:01:45,056
And this is horrendous from the point of view of that would be terrible as a

395
01:01:45,176 --> 01:01:50,056
long run to rely on in the long run, it would be horrible.

396
01:01:50,056 --> 01:01:53,456
But in just in terms of figuring out like what should the difficulty actually be

397
01:01:53,456 --> 01:01:56,216
in a world where no one knows, it's not the worst idea.

398
01:01:56,615 --> 01:01:59,935
A different idea would be to like limit Bitcoin has these guardrails on how much

399
01:01:59,935 --> 01:02:04,935
the difficulty can adjust and you could have like a temporary period where the

400
01:02:05,456 --> 01:02:08,096
guardrails were smaller and this would be like a soft fork.

401
01:02:08,255 --> 01:02:11,736
So instead of being down by a factor of four and up by a factor of four,

402
01:02:12,015 --> 01:02:16,495
you could say the difficulty can only go down by like a factor of like, you know,

403
01:02:16,495 --> 01:02:20,176
instead of going down 25% it can only do it on like 80% like it'll go down like a

404
01:02:20,176 --> 01:02:24,495
little bit and it can only go up like 1.2% or something like that.

405
01:02:24,976 --> 01:02:27,775
So this would still be within the four, four things.

406
01:02:27,775 --> 01:02:31,415
So this wouldn't even be like a hard fork or anything, but this could just like,

407
01:02:32,456 --> 01:02:32,935
uh, well,

408
01:02:32,935 --> 01:02:35,415
I'm not sure exactly how it would work when people tried to count cause it would

409
01:02:35,415 --> 01:02:39,135
be an, it would be an aberrant difficulty adjustment,

410
01:02:39,575 --> 01:02:43,295
but I'm just trying to say it wouldn't be like that. Uh, well,

411
01:02:43,295 --> 01:02:45,375
I don't want to get into like, it's like a complicated type of thing to get.

412
01:02:45,375 --> 01:02:50,375
But so there's a third idea would be to have to try to have viable futures

413
01:02:51,336 --> 01:02:56,176
markets before the fork launches so that you kind of have some idea of what the

414
01:02:56,215 --> 01:02:57,616
price is.

415
01:02:57,655 --> 01:02:59,976
That was a V2X thing. But, and I don't know, man,

416
01:02:59,976 --> 01:03:03,976
I always had a problem of telling people to send UTXOs to exchanges,

417
01:03:03,976 --> 01:03:07,495
to signal, um, you know, your,

418
01:03:08,176 --> 01:03:12,215
that you want the liquidity, man. There's just not even during like, uh,

419
01:03:12,215 --> 01:03:17,056
when Bitfinex did it, um, there's just no liquidity. Like you can't,

420
01:03:17,176 --> 01:03:22,176
it's so hard to like actually determine if there's going to be real demand by a

421
01:03:22,375 --> 01:03:26,495
centralized third party offering a futures market. Like, because

422
01:03:27,536 --> 01:03:29,375
I thought they were very low quality. I agree.

423
01:03:30,896 --> 01:03:32,896
But they ended up being right though. So they ended up,

424
01:03:32,935 --> 01:03:34,696
they ended up saying it would be like 15%.

425
01:03:35,536 --> 01:03:40,536
It was sort of like 15% BCH, 85% BTC.

426
01:03:40,736 --> 01:03:42,896
And that ended up being like sort of accurate for like,

427
01:03:42,896 --> 01:03:46,456
for a few months. Yeah.

428
01:03:47,375 --> 01:03:50,495
It's always going to change once a month. That was always the case, right?

429
01:03:50,495 --> 01:03:53,495
It's not like any of the prices are stuck there permanently,

430
01:03:54,215 --> 01:03:57,375
but it's still pretty good to get it in advance.

431
01:03:57,415 --> 01:03:59,736
You're just trying to get it in because you see what I mean? If you know,

432
01:04:00,935 --> 01:04:05,536
if you know one month in advance, what the price will be, hypothetically,

433
01:04:06,096 --> 01:04:07,736
then you could calculate like what the diff,

434
01:04:07,775 --> 01:04:09,536
what difficulty would be really, really close.

435
01:04:10,015 --> 01:04:11,935
And then you would avoid all these problems, I think,

436
01:04:12,295 --> 01:04:14,696
because it would turn on and it would be moderately profitable.

437
01:04:15,135 --> 01:04:18,976
Some people would switch over. Some people would not. Um,

438
01:04:21,015 --> 01:04:24,776
so what about the difficulty, the difficulty adjustment algorithm?

439
01:04:24,776 --> 01:04:28,736
Are you doing any tweaks to that or just keeping that vanilla the way it is?

440
01:04:29,776 --> 01:04:33,896
Talked about some, I would, obviously I would prefer not to, uh, at all.

441
01:04:34,095 --> 01:04:37,056
And I think maybe embrace the chaos would be more,

442
01:04:37,095 --> 01:04:41,695
more fun and more interesting. Uh, but that being said, um,

443
01:04:42,376 --> 01:04:43,695
uh, yeah, if I did anything,

444
01:04:43,695 --> 01:04:47,695
it would be like something that where after three months it automatically times

445
01:04:47,695 --> 01:04:50,095
out because it's not, it has nothing to do with

446
01:04:51,896 --> 01:04:56,135
like the, the system doesn't need it in the long run, but it just needs it to,

447
01:04:56,135 --> 01:04:59,496
it's just a question of turning it on for the first time.

448
01:04:59,975 --> 01:05:03,295
And you have to like guess at some things, you know what I mean? It's like, uh,

449
01:05:03,575 --> 01:05:07,216
you're going to turn it on and you don't know what the price will be and what,

450
01:05:07,496 --> 01:05:08,336
who will mine it.

451
01:05:09,095 --> 01:05:12,896
After three months, if everything like 2016 blocks is that's, that's,

452
01:05:13,336 --> 01:05:15,216
that numbers will stay the same, right?

453
01:05:16,216 --> 01:05:20,376
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Um, all right.

454
01:05:20,376 --> 01:05:24,736
So that everything will know one should be exactly the same and to the extent

455
01:05:24,736 --> 01:05:28,535
it's not, it would just be this temporary thing involving the launch,

456
01:05:28,535 --> 01:05:31,295
which is unfortunate. But of course, when you first create it, you have just,

457
01:05:31,376 --> 01:05:32,415
yeah, it's going from zero.

458
01:05:33,216 --> 01:05:34,056
You have to do something.

459
01:05:34,056 --> 01:05:37,216
You have to loosen some type of rules in order for that chain to come alive.

460
01:05:37,295 --> 01:05:41,695
I'm with you. Um, the other thing, the name,

461
01:05:42,695 --> 01:05:44,695
the name, man, you re you,

462
01:05:44,695 --> 01:05:48,736
you know that there is already a project called eCash, like why, why eCash?

463
01:05:48,736 --> 01:05:49,815
Why, why not?

464
01:05:52,095 --> 01:05:55,776
Well, of course I'm, I was, I considered a lot of different names, but yeah,

465
01:05:55,776 --> 01:05:57,656
eCash.com was available. So I got it.

466
01:05:57,656 --> 01:05:59,936
And I looked up all the existing eCash projects.

467
01:05:59,936 --> 01:06:01,135
I thought they're actually all terrible.

468
01:06:01,216 --> 01:06:05,376
So I thought no one's actually muscling in on the name actually.

469
01:06:06,376 --> 01:06:09,216
So I thought all the contenders for the name are super, super weak.

470
01:06:09,855 --> 01:06:13,135
You could get eCash.com, eCash is a great name. So, you know,

471
01:06:13,216 --> 01:06:17,776
it's, it's actually in the white paper, peer-to-peer electronic cash.

472
01:06:17,776 --> 01:06:20,776
So I thought that was kind of funny. It's too, it's easy to pronounce.

473
01:06:20,855 --> 01:06:24,056
It's easy to spell. So it's a great name.

474
01:06:24,376 --> 01:06:27,776
I completely disagree with the idea that if a generic name like eCash,

475
01:06:27,776 --> 01:06:32,575
like something like email or like e-bike or e-reader or

476
01:06:32,575 --> 01:06:35,376
something like, I don't, I completely disagree with this. Like a first,

477
01:06:35,736 --> 01:06:39,736
first come first serve, uh, you call dibs or something. I think that's,

478
01:06:40,855 --> 01:06:43,095
I can't even believe that people are even talking like,

479
01:06:43,095 --> 01:06:45,855
as if that's a serious point, uh, someone, you know,

480
01:06:48,255 --> 01:06:49,415
I think, um,

481
01:06:49,695 --> 01:06:55,015
Bitcoin hodlers that have UTXOs would probably appreciate if it

482
01:06:55,015 --> 01:06:56,616
was a different name. But let's say, I mean, it's your project.

483
01:06:56,616 --> 01:07:00,936
You can do whatever you want. You like eCash or t-cash, whatever. Um,

484
01:07:01,975 --> 01:07:03,216
what else there's old things.

485
01:07:03,255 --> 01:07:05,255
I mean, you're not referring to Callie's project, are you?

486
01:07:06,456 --> 01:07:11,095
I mean, I particularly don't have a use for eCash. Um,

487
01:07:12,336 --> 01:07:16,295
like, you know, I, I think that project is horrendous.

488
01:07:16,295 --> 01:07:17,855
Out of all the different e-cashes that,

489
01:07:17,975 --> 01:07:19,855
that is the one of the most horrendous of them all.

490
01:07:19,855 --> 01:07:21,295
Which one are you referring? I mean,

491
01:07:21,295 --> 01:07:24,376
that's the only one that I'm actually that's in my cycle.

492
01:07:24,415 --> 01:07:25,815
Well, technically all the Fedimint,

493
01:07:25,855 --> 01:07:29,815
all the Fedimint stuff is also like eCash theoretically.

494
01:07:29,815 --> 01:07:32,616
Yeah. I mean, it's similar to that also.

495
01:07:32,936 --> 01:07:37,295
So I think they have described it also as, but yeah, I think the original,

496
01:07:37,295 --> 01:07:41,535
when you had David Choum, uh, when you had like these custodial,

497
01:07:43,135 --> 01:07:44,376
the problem is the custodial,

498
01:07:44,376 --> 01:07:46,896
like just leads to everyone lying to themselves about everything else.

499
01:07:46,896 --> 01:07:50,376
So it just creates a giant metastasizing cancer of lies.

500
01:07:51,535 --> 01:07:54,896
The idea is that you get privacy, right? Like you actually get a dollar bill,

501
01:07:54,896 --> 01:07:56,135
a digital dollar bill,

502
01:07:56,776 --> 01:08:00,456
and you could treat it like a physical dollar bill that you have in your pocket.

503
01:08:00,456 --> 01:08:02,496
You don't get it though. It's custodial. So you don't,

504
01:08:02,496 --> 01:08:03,415
you never actually obtain it.

505
01:08:03,496 --> 01:08:05,176
I mean, you don't really get the dollars either.

506
01:08:05,176 --> 01:08:08,255
That dollar could be devalued to zero, right? So you always,

507
01:08:08,295 --> 01:08:10,736
there's always a trusted third party when it comes to cash.

508
01:08:11,095 --> 01:08:15,176
Well, that's a good point. But, uh, I don't think, you know,

509
01:08:15,176 --> 01:08:16,975
with the whole point with Bitcoin,

510
01:08:17,015 --> 01:08:21,575
it's like the assertion with the Chowmian Bitcoin is that you're getting

511
01:08:21,575 --> 01:08:24,456
Bitcoin though. So that's not quite the same,

512
01:08:24,535 --> 01:08:27,456
but I mean, the name, the name is not as important. Um,

513
01:08:27,496 --> 01:08:29,815
I just want to see this thing take off, man. And just like,

514
01:08:29,855 --> 01:08:33,656
I don't know if the way it is right now,

515
01:08:33,656 --> 01:08:37,655
like if it has any chance of really taking it off or like other than like,

516
01:08:37,655 --> 01:08:42,016
you know, just some kind of like joke thing, like, like Dogecoin. Um,

517
01:08:43,455 --> 01:08:46,335
but I mean, like, I don't know, man, I, I'm a big fan of UTXO for us again.

518
01:08:46,335 --> 01:08:51,335
Like I really think that I wish more people would fork Bitcoin's UTXO

519
01:08:51,616 --> 01:08:55,576
set instead of, you know, printing their own money. Like, I'm not a fan.

520
01:08:55,616 --> 01:09:00,136
The reason I really hated all coins was because I didn't think people should

521
01:09:00,136 --> 01:09:01,455
just print their own fucking money.

522
01:09:01,535 --> 01:09:04,095
Like that's not something that I was ever a fan of.

523
01:09:04,576 --> 01:09:06,736
I have one question for you or anybody, I guess. Like,

524
01:09:07,016 --> 01:09:09,616
do you think if it opens just like, I'm just throwing numbers out there,

525
01:09:09,616 --> 01:09:14,535
like at a thousand dollars at the fork date does thousand dollars,

526
01:09:15,095 --> 01:09:19,376
whatever it falls, does it fall a thousand dollars or does it,

527
01:09:19,895 --> 01:09:21,816
does it raise the, how does it impact it?

528
01:09:22,496 --> 01:09:26,095
You got to worry about the BTC ratio, the old BTC ratio,

529
01:09:26,095 --> 01:09:29,455
not so much the dollar ratio. Cause the dollar ratio, I mean,

530
01:09:29,975 --> 01:09:31,855
it's part of the Bitcoin ecosystem,

531
01:09:32,775 --> 01:09:36,335
but like you really have to look at that BTC alt ratio in order for this to make

532
01:09:36,335 --> 01:09:41,095
sense. So like, it all depends on what it falls against Bitcoin.

533
01:09:41,095 --> 01:09:44,256
Not really because there's gonna be no liquidity for like when you price it in

534
01:09:44,256 --> 01:09:48,095
dollars. I mean, it's not going to tell you much, but um,

535
01:09:49,095 --> 01:09:52,616
when you, uh, when you price it in BTC, it'll tell you a much,

536
01:09:53,176 --> 01:09:56,576
much better story. But again, like I want to see this pump. Like I,

537
01:09:56,576 --> 01:09:59,176
I want this to be successful. That's the whole thing.

538
01:10:01,696 --> 01:10:05,376
Also another thing, I got one more issue. You're calling this a hard fork.

539
01:10:06,215 --> 01:10:11,136
And I believe a hard fork is when you lose a consensus rule and it

540
01:10:11,136 --> 01:10:13,736
doesn't cause a split where you actually have,

541
01:10:13,775 --> 01:10:16,775
no, you're right. The problem is, uh, it's all, you're right.

542
01:10:16,775 --> 01:10:19,056
But all the terminology is screwed up, but I actually wrote,

543
01:10:19,696 --> 01:10:22,215
let's fix it, man. You have the perfect opportunity to fix it.

544
01:10:22,256 --> 01:10:26,736
I wrote an essay back in 2016 or something. I think it's about fork tip,

545
01:10:27,215 --> 01:10:29,455
better fork terminology and forks and split.

546
01:10:29,775 --> 01:10:34,256
And unfortunately the language is all messed up. So, um,

547
01:10:34,616 --> 01:10:36,295
I don't know, like, I don't know how to explain it.

548
01:10:36,295 --> 01:10:37,616
I mean like there's, you know,

549
01:10:37,616 --> 01:10:41,016
there's going to come a time where Bitcoin is going to need a hard fork because

550
01:10:41,056 --> 01:10:42,256
the chain is not going to continue.

551
01:10:42,576 --> 01:10:47,496
And anyone that doesn't upgrade will won't have access to their UTXOs.

552
01:10:47,496 --> 01:10:52,256
Right. So that, in my opinion, is a hard fork that doesn't split the chain.

553
01:10:53,215 --> 01:10:54,016
Um,

554
01:10:54,016 --> 01:10:58,535
what you're doing and what other people do when they fork Bitcoin's UTXO set is

555
01:10:58,535 --> 01:11:02,335
you're deliberately causing a chain split. So it's,

556
01:11:02,335 --> 01:11:04,895
it's a deliberate chain split. So like, I just think, um,

557
01:11:05,775 --> 01:11:08,775
yeah, well, some people say it's like a spinoff altcoin,

558
01:11:09,775 --> 01:11:13,736
which I actually think is a decent attempt at explaining it. But yeah,

559
01:11:13,736 --> 01:11:16,775
unfortunately, as I said, that we've had, and I gave,

560
01:11:16,816 --> 01:11:21,455
this is a talk I gave two TabConf's ago about the origin of all these

561
01:11:21,496 --> 01:11:25,895
words, the both the soft fork and the hard fork. Um,

562
01:11:25,936 --> 01:11:27,816
even though we use the word fork,

563
01:11:28,455 --> 01:11:31,696
it describes a fork that does not like a fork in the road that does not happen.

564
01:11:32,056 --> 01:11:35,975
So in every other case, and I had like a tuning for a picture of a tuning fork,

565
01:11:36,016 --> 01:11:39,136
like on the slide and it had like a culinary fork, like with food.

566
01:11:39,855 --> 01:11:43,056
And it's like the fork is always a fork in the road. It's like when you split,

567
01:11:43,496 --> 01:11:44,975
but, um,

568
01:11:45,016 --> 01:11:49,616
these soft fork and hard fork refer to ways of resolving the split into one

569
01:11:50,376 --> 01:11:54,295
history only. And so they always describe situations where there is no,

570
01:11:54,376 --> 01:11:58,056
but this is just the terminology that we landed up with and it's all messed up.

571
01:11:58,056 --> 01:12:01,535
So I don't know how to, uh, fix the,

572
01:12:02,016 --> 01:12:06,095
the culture's understanding of which words to use, uh, which I did,

573
01:12:06,496 --> 01:12:08,736
but I just think this is a good enough word for now.

574
01:12:08,975 --> 01:12:10,136
Also not that big of a deal.

575
01:12:10,295 --> 01:12:13,016
The other question is I'm not really interested. It doesn't,

576
01:12:13,095 --> 01:12:15,295
it doesn't benefit me at all. But why, um,

577
01:12:15,895 --> 01:12:20,455
why start your own chain and other shots of the six chain when you could have

578
01:12:20,455 --> 01:12:22,696
just put Drivechain on like Bcash or something?

579
01:12:25,016 --> 01:12:29,975
Well, I didn't recreate drive changing to help Altcoin destroy BTC.

580
01:12:30,496 --> 01:12:32,736
So I could, but I think they will anyway. So I,

581
01:12:32,775 --> 01:12:37,775
so probably Litecoin will adopt BIP300 on,

582
01:12:38,496 --> 01:12:40,936
uh, I think, um,

583
01:12:41,016 --> 01:12:43,936
I like I'm not sure exactly if I understand the question because it's my view.

584
01:12:45,056 --> 01:12:48,576
Forking Bitcoin's UTXO set to add Drivechains,

585
01:12:48,576 --> 01:12:53,576
why not add Drivechains to already a chain that already like that exists now?

586
01:12:55,415 --> 01:12:57,576
I know, but it's a strange question. Like you think like,

587
01:12:57,576 --> 01:13:02,496
I want to play the Drivechain is like a toy that I want to use and like play

588
01:13:02,496 --> 01:13:04,496
with personally. That's not the reason.

589
01:13:04,775 --> 01:13:08,016
It's a matter of life or death for the survival of the BTC project.

590
01:13:08,936 --> 01:13:11,535
Right. But right now, I mean, this has nothing to do with BTC project anymore.

591
01:13:11,535 --> 01:13:14,335
You're forking Bitcoin's UTXO set. This is nothing.

592
01:13:15,816 --> 01:13:19,256
That lets everyone escape onto a different, like we're on the Titanic.

593
01:13:20,215 --> 01:13:22,295
So what I'm saying is there's a red block chains.

594
01:13:22,655 --> 01:13:27,655
But I'm saying also that people probably will do that.

595
01:13:27,655 --> 01:13:28,496
Like there will be,

596
01:13:29,535 --> 01:13:32,016
so what's the point of you forking? Like what's the point of the fork?

597
01:13:32,895 --> 01:13:35,775
If people are already going to add Drivechains onto these old coins,

598
01:13:35,816 --> 01:13:36,855
what's the point of this fork?

599
01:13:37,616 --> 01:13:40,136
No, but I'm asking, I don't understand the question at all.

600
01:13:40,455 --> 01:13:43,576
Maybe I'm misunderstanding it. I don't know. But why would you even add like,

601
01:13:46,496 --> 01:13:50,256
the reason you're forking Bitcoin's UTXO set is because you want to add drive

602
01:13:50,295 --> 01:13:51,975
chains, correct? Like you want drivechains.

603
01:13:53,535 --> 01:13:56,975
So you're going to have this fork with Drivechains, right? Like that's the idea.

604
01:13:59,215 --> 01:14:00,576
Well, I guess it's all related.

605
01:14:00,576 --> 01:14:03,176
These are different beliefs that are all kind of related to each other,

606
01:14:03,535 --> 01:14:06,376
but I guess that's true.

607
01:14:06,616 --> 01:14:10,176
Okay. So now I'm asking you why fork your own chain?

608
01:14:10,176 --> 01:14:13,816
Why not convince the developers on another chain to add?

609
01:14:14,016 --> 01:14:15,975
Why would that help me in any way?

610
01:14:16,496 --> 01:14:17,616
How would this help you in any way?

611
01:14:18,176 --> 01:14:19,855
Well, I guess we're still pretty confused. I don't know.

612
01:14:19,855 --> 01:14:21,576
Maybe JK can chime in or something.

613
01:14:21,616 --> 01:14:26,616
I think the idea of just like separating certain people who are not beneficial to

614
01:14:27,855 --> 01:14:28,696
the project or like,

615
01:14:28,696 --> 01:14:32,975
don't hold as axioms that like there is such a thing as miner centralization,

616
01:14:32,975 --> 01:14:37,535
that like you're actually creating a new ecosystem and environment in doing so.

617
01:14:38,095 --> 01:14:40,895
But you have the same miners. It's the same, it's, it's SHA-256,

618
01:14:40,895 --> 01:14:41,895
it's the same exact miners.

619
01:14:41,895 --> 01:14:42,736
Well, yeah. You need that.

620
01:14:42,736 --> 01:14:45,215
If you're going to claim to be like the true Bitcoin.

621
01:14:45,655 --> 01:14:48,095
Oh, wait, are you trying to be the true Bitcoin? Is that the idea?

622
01:14:48,256 --> 01:14:49,696
I think, I think that's a part of it.

623
01:14:49,696 --> 01:14:54,455
I don't think it's the whole project like fails or succeeds depending on it,

624
01:14:54,455 --> 01:14:55,295
but

625
01:14:58,056 --> 01:14:58,895
just FYI,

626
01:14:58,895 --> 01:15:01,095
JK is someone who just came up and I made a co-host.

627
01:15:01,095 --> 01:15:02,335
He has some interesting things to say,

628
01:15:02,335 --> 01:15:04,816
but he's not like officially affiliated or whatever.

629
01:15:04,816 --> 01:15:06,696
We're just like hanging out here on the space.

630
01:15:06,696 --> 01:15:09,215
I was just trying to get, you've been like this drive.

631
01:15:09,215 --> 01:15:13,176
I don't understand. I don't understand the question in the question is that like

632
01:15:13,775 --> 01:15:14,696
the question is that like,

633
01:15:14,696 --> 01:15:18,816
you've been talking about drive chasing now for, for a while. Um,

634
01:15:18,855 --> 01:15:21,576
I've been saying like, I've always wondered like if Drivechain is so great,

635
01:15:21,576 --> 01:15:24,016
why isn't anyone else really adopting it?

636
01:15:24,016 --> 01:15:27,176
Why am I not seeing out there in the wild? Um, but whatever that,

637
01:15:27,215 --> 01:15:30,535
then I muted it. I forgot about it.

638
01:15:30,736 --> 01:15:35,056
And now the topic is back and you're forking your own, like your own chain.

639
01:15:35,056 --> 01:15:36,775
You're going to fork Bitcoin's UTXO set.

640
01:15:37,256 --> 01:15:40,415
You're going to create an old coin and you're going to add Drivechain to it.

641
01:15:40,736 --> 01:15:45,295
So why like all these years, why, like why not make a push for one of these?

642
01:15:45,335 --> 01:15:48,295
You were making a push for Bitcoin to add drivechain.

643
01:15:48,455 --> 01:15:50,496
You saw that wasn't happening. So you got tired of it.

644
01:15:50,496 --> 01:15:52,895
And now you're like, fuck it. I'm just going to create my own chain.

645
01:15:53,295 --> 01:15:56,056
But you know, you have already changed that exists.

646
01:15:56,056 --> 01:15:58,176
You have even shot two 56 chains that exist.

647
01:15:58,535 --> 01:16:01,415
Why not convince those developers to add Drivechain?

648
01:16:02,855 --> 01:16:05,496
I know, but you think that I want the Drivechain just to like,

649
01:16:05,496 --> 01:16:06,415
look at it or something.

650
01:16:06,535 --> 01:16:09,535
No, to use, I mean like, well, dude, you're forking big ones.

651
01:16:09,655 --> 01:16:12,016
You can use to make Bitcoin.

652
01:16:12,335 --> 01:16:13,095
What do you think is going to happen?

653
01:16:14,775 --> 01:16:16,775
You think all of a sudden it's going to be thousands of thousands of people

654
01:16:16,775 --> 01:16:21,016
coming on and like playing with the, with the chain and using the tech.

655
01:16:21,895 --> 01:16:23,016
Like you're going to look at it.

656
01:16:23,016 --> 01:16:25,136
You're going to be looking at it just like you're going to be looking like all

657
01:16:25,136 --> 01:16:27,056
these, all you do is look at all the points. What else?

658
01:16:27,335 --> 01:16:28,736
You don't really do anything. You just look at it.

659
01:16:30,736 --> 01:16:33,056
No, I think we have to get to users.

660
01:16:33,095 --> 01:16:36,655
And if we don't have a lot of people using the technology,

661
01:16:36,655 --> 01:16:39,095
then it will fade away and it should fade away.

662
01:16:39,136 --> 01:16:40,136
And we have to get,

663
01:16:40,215 --> 01:16:44,056
I think we can get to 8 billion users of Bitcoin eventually.

664
01:16:44,655 --> 01:16:47,176
And if we don't, and someone else, some other coin will,

665
01:16:47,176 --> 01:16:51,415
and then BTC will go to zero. So I don't, again,

666
01:16:51,855 --> 01:16:56,816
let me try to understand the question more. Like why would I want,

667
01:16:56,975 --> 01:17:00,855
it's very nice. Okay. So first of all, the reason why people are not,

668
01:17:01,736 --> 01:17:06,215
the reason why I think, first of all, many people did add drivechain.

669
01:17:06,215 --> 01:17:09,296
So, but there wasn't, we never put out like an activation client.

670
01:17:10,815 --> 01:17:12,455
And so in that sense, it was unfinished,

671
01:17:12,455 --> 01:17:16,536
even though I think BIP300 is pretty simple because it's just a counter under

672
01:17:16,536 --> 01:17:21,296
the hood that counts to 13,000 over and over again.

673
01:17:21,935 --> 01:17:23,496
So I don't think it's that complicated,

674
01:17:24,055 --> 01:17:28,055
but we never put out any activation clients. So it was not possible for,

675
01:17:28,855 --> 01:17:31,575
and there was never any pull requests to Bitcoin Core, you know,

676
01:17:31,575 --> 01:17:36,575
like even now we have the BIP300, the CUSF activator for BIP300/301,

677
01:17:38,736 --> 01:17:40,736
but like it's, didn't have like a,

678
01:17:40,855 --> 01:17:44,855
it didn't have like activation parameters or anything for like BIP9 signaling or

679
01:17:44,855 --> 01:17:45,695
anything like that.

680
01:17:46,136 --> 01:17:51,136
So what bothers me more than people not adopting it is that people not wanting

681
01:17:51,656 --> 01:17:55,256
to adopt it. I think that's a bizarre thing. So like, imagine that you,

682
01:17:56,055 --> 01:17:59,975
imagine that you discovered, okay, let me give you this analogy.

683
01:17:59,975 --> 01:18:02,055
Let me see if this helps you explain anything at all.

684
01:18:02,215 --> 01:18:05,855
So let's say you're traveling the world and you show up and you're in like

685
01:18:05,855 --> 01:18:08,016
whatever, the Amazon rainforest or something.

686
01:18:08,575 --> 01:18:11,095
And you discover that there's a society there that they,

687
01:18:11,136 --> 01:18:15,656
they kill like 90% of their, their female children.

688
01:18:15,656 --> 01:18:18,256
They saw them in half with a giant saw because they're crazy,

689
01:18:18,335 --> 01:18:23,376
like Aztec sacrifice people. And they're like, this is like, you know,

690
01:18:23,376 --> 01:18:25,695
this is like you walk around and then they're like, yeah,

691
01:18:25,695 --> 01:18:26,935
ever since we started doing this,

692
01:18:26,935 --> 01:18:30,416
our society has started to collapse and our population is in collapse and our

693
01:18:30,416 --> 01:18:34,496
civilization is in decline and we're all dying. Uh,

694
01:18:34,536 --> 01:18:38,136
and what do we do? And you can, and then someone proposes BIP300,

695
01:18:38,136 --> 01:18:41,455
which says, this is a rule. BIP300 says,

696
01:18:41,736 --> 01:18:46,215
stop sawing your own children in half and sacrificing them.

697
01:18:47,256 --> 01:18:51,416
And then someone called Mr. Hoddle says, or Aztec Hoddle, he says something like,

698
01:18:52,536 --> 01:18:56,175
well, have you tried, have you tried getting this law passed?

699
01:18:56,256 --> 01:18:59,575
Like in Mexico city or like in whatever, in,

700
01:18:59,616 --> 01:19:03,896
have you tried getting it passed in Chile or something? And you're like, what?

701
01:19:04,136 --> 01:19:08,575
Like, it's not the, there's none of this is the point. Like the idea is,

702
01:19:09,175 --> 01:19:12,616
um, the idea is a good idea. It's a harmless idea. We need,

703
01:19:12,656 --> 01:19:16,256
we want people to be focused on building great technology and innovation and we

704
01:19:16,256 --> 01:19:20,575
want safe ossification of L1 and we want higher minor revenues.

705
01:19:20,815 --> 01:19:24,016
So the fact that people don't want the idea is almost a bigger problem than,

706
01:19:24,776 --> 01:19:27,296
you know, people not activating it, but there has been,

707
01:19:27,296 --> 01:19:32,296
there was altcoin SkyDoge that activated the primitive version of BIP300.

708
01:19:32,695 --> 01:19:36,896
And then I think Litecoin will now that the CUSF activator is,

709
01:19:37,496 --> 01:19:39,016
and there've been many people, as you know,

710
01:19:39,016 --> 01:19:40,695
who have been interested in it over the years.

711
01:19:40,695 --> 01:19:43,736
You have the LayerTwoLabs.com slash friends list.

712
01:19:44,815 --> 01:19:48,656
You can see a very large number of people were interested in it. Today,

713
01:19:48,656 --> 01:19:51,975
all these people are, we were just talking about people are pivoting to BIP VM,

714
01:19:52,695 --> 01:19:54,095
but the creator of BIP VM,

715
01:19:55,055 --> 01:19:58,656
Robin Linus has always said that BIP300 is better and we should activate it.

716
01:19:59,136 --> 01:19:59,575
So.

717
01:20:00,297 --> 01:20:06,297
So it's not like, it's not like I care intrinsically about BIP300 out of my own ego.

718
01:20:06,297 --> 01:20:12,617
Like I don't really care at all about that. I'm worried about Bitcoin surviving and thriving.

719
01:20:13,577 --> 01:20:16,377
That's what I'm worried about. So why, how on earth would it help

720
01:20:16,377 --> 01:20:19,497
for it to activate on Litecoin, you know, a competitor to Bitcoin? I don't know,

721
01:20:19,497 --> 01:20:21,017
but we had someone join RJ.

722
01:20:24,057 --> 01:20:26,616
You're a direct competitor to Bitcoin now.

723
01:20:26,776 --> 01:20:29,257
Well, yeah, now I want, because we forked the FET. So I'm going to,

724
01:20:29,257 --> 01:20:32,137
I'm going to save the women and children, which is the UTXO set.

725
01:20:32,936 --> 01:20:35,896
And we're going to leave a couple of people behind. I'm going to leave Peter McCormack

726
01:20:35,896 --> 01:20:39,977
and Shinobi behind maybe, and we're going to escape, you know, and this is the best I can do.

727
01:20:39,977 --> 01:20:45,177
You know what I mean? I want to save 99% of the, the important thing is that the project

728
01:20:45,177 --> 01:20:51,896
with all its original owners and the cohort. So basically like, so is that, that's why I don't

729
01:20:52,217 --> 01:20:55,977
Basically, like, so is that, that's why I don't care about like, oh, well,

730
01:20:55,977 --> 01:20:59,896
why don't you activate it on Bitcoin SV or something like whatever?

731
01:20:59,896 --> 01:21:03,256
Like, okay. You know, like that's kind of making my job a little bit worse, I think.

732
01:21:06,137 --> 01:21:07,176
Go ahead RJ, I'm sorry.

733
01:21:07,896 --> 01:21:12,297
No problems. Good afternoon, everyone. And Mr. Voyager, glad to see you.

734
01:21:12,856 --> 01:21:17,097
Paul, I'm thankful that you're doing this because BTC does have a real issue.

735
01:21:18,057 --> 01:21:21,896
But I am concerned why you chose to fork Bitcoin.

736
01:21:24,536 --> 01:21:29,496
Why did you just not come and participate with Monero? We've talked about this before.

737
01:21:30,856 --> 01:21:34,616
And I don't understand why you didn't bring your talents and your,

738
01:21:37,256 --> 01:21:40,297
and your purpose is to add privacy to Bitcoin, I'm assuming, right?

739
01:21:41,017 --> 01:21:42,777
I mean, that's what we're trying to do with eCash.

740
01:21:43,496 --> 01:21:46,297
Correct? Or is this not a privacy play?

741
01:21:46,297 --> 01:21:48,057
This is not a privacy play.

742
01:21:48,057 --> 01:21:51,017
Well, then it doesn't really fucking matter. It's a complete utter waste of time.

743
01:21:51,017 --> 01:21:54,137
There is like a very important aspect of it.

744
01:21:55,337 --> 01:21:57,657
I lost, I lost the connection for a tiny little bit.

745
01:21:59,657 --> 01:22:00,936
Why didn't I join Monero?

746
01:22:00,936 --> 01:22:05,017
Excuse me, excuse me. Let me just ask a question because I'm, I'm happy Paul's trying to fix

747
01:22:05,017 --> 01:22:08,057
Bitcoin. It has a, it has a lot of issues.

748
01:22:08,697 --> 01:22:11,896
Oh, Paul's done fixing Bitcoin. Paul's moving on.

749
01:22:13,016 --> 01:22:15,256
To his own thing. Like Bitcoin's done.

750
01:22:16,137 --> 01:22:17,417
Well, I agree. Bitcoin is done.

751
01:22:18,777 --> 01:22:19,736
Okay. I agree.

752
01:22:19,736 --> 01:22:23,656
And I was wondering why Paul did not join the Monero devs.

753
01:22:24,297 --> 01:22:25,096
All right.

754
01:22:25,096 --> 01:22:29,497
Why did you not do that, Paul? It would be, you would make such a bigger difference in that world

755
01:22:30,456 --> 01:22:32,137
than anything you're doing here.

756
01:22:32,137 --> 01:22:34,697
I'm sorry. They just have too much, they have too much money.

757
01:22:35,497 --> 01:22:37,977
The biggest problem with Bitcoin, it's almost like a government.

758
01:22:38,937 --> 01:22:41,816
You know, it's kind of, you're fighting the kings.

759
01:22:41,816 --> 01:22:44,456
Cause they'll just kick you off the exchanges if you get too popular.

760
01:22:45,417 --> 01:22:48,697
So I don't understand. They're never going to give you liquidity.

761
01:22:50,536 --> 01:22:53,096
Um, okay. It's a good, it's a very good question. I suppose.

762
01:22:54,536 --> 01:22:56,937
I don't know if it, I think, do you think the exchanges,

763
01:22:56,937 --> 01:22:59,016
like it's kind of like a bit of a conspiracy theory?

764
01:22:59,016 --> 01:23:00,777
Like they're just running the show and that they don't.

765
01:23:01,417 --> 01:23:01,896
Yeah.

766
01:23:01,896 --> 01:23:04,616
Uh, I don't know if that's the case because the exchanges can make a lot of money.

767
01:23:04,616 --> 01:23:07,337
If that wasn't the case, Paul, then the Monero would be listed, correct?

768
01:23:07,417 --> 01:23:12,536
Monero is not listed because Monero does not produce much transaction fees.

769
01:23:12,536 --> 01:23:17,816
That's a, that's a bold face lie. It produces more transactions than Dogecoin.

770
01:23:17,816 --> 01:23:19,816
No, no, no. With the exchanges, exchanges.

771
01:23:21,816 --> 01:23:24,456
That's it. The exchanges want to make money. They don't care about what it does.

772
01:23:25,016 --> 01:23:29,016
I think, okay, wait, everyone just be cool here for a second.

773
01:23:29,896 --> 01:23:33,256
I think the exchanges are making a huge amount of money,

774
01:23:33,256 --> 01:23:36,536
right? And they also, they have to interface with the fiat world.

775
01:23:37,337 --> 01:23:40,297
So my guess is that they probably, I don't know, I have no idea,

776
01:23:40,297 --> 01:23:45,096
but my guess is that they probably look at Monero and they think, oh, this is the privacy

777
01:23:45,977 --> 01:23:51,497
drug coin. And they just think, well, they just kind of shrunk because they think, so I think.

778
01:23:51,497 --> 01:23:55,497
But they celebrate the, they, they celebrate the public drug coin,

779
01:23:55,497 --> 01:24:01,417
Bitcoin. Like Bitcoin is the public drug coin. Bitcoin, why are we.

780
01:24:01,417 --> 01:24:03,256
The darknet usage of Bitcoin.

781
01:24:04,137 --> 01:24:10,777
No, what I'm saying is like Bitcoin's reputation, the cypher punks beat their chest

782
01:24:10,777 --> 01:24:15,256
about Silk Road and facilitating drug purchases throughout the, throughout time.

783
01:24:16,936 --> 01:24:22,776
The point I'm saying, Paul, if they, if, if you're no threat to Bitcoin, they'll list you.

784
01:24:24,617 --> 01:24:27,336
The moment you become a threat to Bitcoin, they'll kick you off.

785
01:24:27,336 --> 01:24:31,096
Just to go back to one of the thing about privacy is like, there is a huge

786
01:24:31,096 --> 01:24:35,177
privacy component and adding a Zcash sidechain. Like that is like a major.

787
01:24:35,177 --> 01:24:41,417
Zcash is, Zcash is, Zcash is shielded. It's not, it's not a default trans,

788
01:24:41,417 --> 01:24:44,457
it's not default privacy or anonymity. It's a shielded transaction.

789
01:24:44,457 --> 01:24:45,017
There's other things.

790
01:24:45,017 --> 01:24:45,977
It's not the same thing.

791
01:24:45,977 --> 01:24:50,216
We were talking about too, like one's called a deniability for adding, you know, privacy.

792
01:24:50,216 --> 01:24:54,536
You can laugh, Vlad. I like Vlad down there, even though we might disagree with Zcash.

793
01:24:54,536 --> 01:24:57,017
If you'd like to have the Israeli coin, go right ahead.

794
01:24:57,496 --> 01:25:01,977
Problem with Zcash was the trusted setting. That's, that's my problem with Zcash.

795
01:25:01,977 --> 01:25:05,017
But I have no problem. But why do they get to us?

796
01:25:05,017 --> 01:25:09,577
All right. So the question though, is why don't I work on Monero?

797
01:25:09,577 --> 01:25:12,536
And although I have a lot of respect, a lot of respect for Monero,

798
01:25:12,536 --> 01:25:17,256
I was a big, I was a doubter of Monero at first. And when I say at first, I mean, like 2014,

799
01:25:17,256 --> 01:25:22,216
they went on Chris and Josh's podcast in think 2015, maybe, maybe it's early 2016.

800
01:25:22,297 --> 01:25:27,177
And then they were like, he was like, oh, you know, Fluffy Pony, Ricardo.

801
01:25:27,177 --> 01:25:29,017
He was like, oh, what should I do instead?

802
01:25:31,177 --> 01:25:34,776
And they had no answer because there was no answer because of course,

803
01:25:35,336 --> 01:25:38,376
what can you do instead is if you care about privacy, if you want to do,

804
01:25:38,376 --> 01:25:40,216
if you want to innovate and you want to do something new,

805
01:25:41,577 --> 01:25:45,737
you don't have an alternative because we never implemented sidechains on BTC.

806
01:25:46,297 --> 01:25:49,496
So I think actually with Monero, it's a good thing.

807
01:25:49,977 --> 01:25:53,417
So I think actually with Monero, it's the same.

808
01:25:53,417 --> 01:25:55,897
It doesn't fix the underlying problem, which is that

809
01:25:56,617 --> 01:25:59,816
the developers will disagree over what constitutes an innovation.

810
01:26:00,376 --> 01:26:03,737
And it'd be very hard to resolve that in the future.

811
01:26:04,376 --> 01:26:08,216
So I think BIP300 is better than any.

812
01:26:10,056 --> 01:26:12,457
You want it to be centralized where one person has the,

813
01:26:13,336 --> 01:26:16,536
kind of like the map of the future of it. Is that fair?

814
01:26:16,536 --> 01:26:19,656
No, it's decentralized where no single person.

815
01:26:19,656 --> 01:26:24,697
Right now you have Bitcoin 4 and then you have Monero also.

816
01:26:25,417 --> 01:26:29,977
At the end of the day, someone releases the full node software that everyone uses.

817
01:26:29,977 --> 01:26:30,776
So there's only one.

818
01:26:31,577 --> 01:26:36,776
It's in the nature of the blockchain that there can only be one full node per blockchain.

819
01:26:37,816 --> 01:26:39,256
But that's what BIP300 fixes.

820
01:26:39,256 --> 01:26:41,256
So that re-decentralizes that.

821
01:26:41,256 --> 01:26:45,656
So I think that that's a more important problem to solve actually.

822
01:26:45,656 --> 01:26:48,137
I think Monero and Bitcoin Cash and all these things, Ethereum,

823
01:26:48,137 --> 01:26:50,137
they were just symptoms of the fact that

824
01:26:50,137 --> 01:26:53,177
people didn't agree over what constitutes an innovation.

825
01:26:53,816 --> 01:26:57,496
And they think, is this actually a better idea for some people or not?

826
01:26:57,496 --> 01:27:00,137
So I think Monero is a very valuable project.

827
01:27:00,936 --> 01:27:04,216
And Monero has done a lot of work to beat the net.

828
01:27:04,216 --> 01:27:05,977
The other thing is the network effects are really strong.

829
01:27:05,977 --> 01:27:10,297
So you want to be a part of a project that's going to be the number one project.

830
01:27:11,417 --> 01:27:14,936
And that's where this has an edge, actually.

831
01:27:14,936 --> 01:27:16,857
Even though it's small now,

832
01:27:16,857 --> 01:27:20,536
it has the ability to continue growing without these disputes holding it back.

833
01:27:21,897 --> 01:27:24,137
Because there's a flywheel, there's a ratchet,

834
01:27:24,137 --> 01:27:26,697
where whenever someone invents something useful,

835
01:27:26,697 --> 01:27:30,216
it can escape onto the L2 without anyone holding it back.

836
01:27:30,216 --> 01:27:31,577
And then it can get its own users.

837
01:27:32,137 --> 01:27:35,096
And then all the L2s, they compete in a healthy way

838
01:27:35,096 --> 01:27:38,697
where they try to produce better software and snipe each other for users.

839
01:27:39,417 --> 01:27:41,256
But then they also collaborate in another way

840
01:27:41,256 --> 01:27:42,857
because they have something that unites them all,

841
01:27:42,857 --> 01:27:46,056
which is they all share the same 21 million coin units.

842
01:27:46,697 --> 01:27:55,096
And so that is a better configuration in the long run.

843
01:27:55,096 --> 01:27:56,297
So again, it's small now.

844
01:27:56,297 --> 01:27:58,776
But everything else hits a ceiling.

845
01:27:58,776 --> 01:28:00,137
Because it's so...

846
01:28:00,137 --> 01:28:01,336
Yeah, but it's a good question.

847
01:28:02,216 --> 01:28:03,977
And the Mayor community is the real...

848
01:28:03,977 --> 01:28:05,977
They're sort of one of the last...

849
01:28:05,977 --> 01:28:08,376
There's one of the few people with real users

850
01:28:08,376 --> 01:28:13,017
who actually use the software for its actual design purpose.

851
01:28:14,776 --> 01:28:16,297
John McAfee said it perfectly.

852
01:28:17,417 --> 01:28:22,457
Trading crypto to get rich, that's not the goal.

853
01:28:23,577 --> 01:28:26,216
The number go up theory is complete utter bullshit.

854
01:28:27,977 --> 01:28:30,297
It's not what crypto was meant to be.

855
01:28:31,096 --> 01:28:33,896
This was not meant to be, I buy Bitcoin.

856
01:28:34,456 --> 01:28:41,497
And the funny thing is that what matters in business is absorption rate,

857
01:28:42,696 --> 01:28:44,057
not maximum supply.

858
01:28:45,417 --> 01:28:47,336
So if you have 21 million houses,

859
01:28:48,136 --> 01:28:50,456
but there's always 5 million houses for sale,

860
01:28:51,016 --> 01:28:53,096
just because there's a maximum amount of houses

861
01:28:53,656 --> 01:28:56,136
doesn't mean that value is guaranteed to go up.

862
01:28:57,896 --> 01:29:01,096
It just means that there's always 5 million houses being sold.

863
01:29:01,737 --> 01:29:05,417
And if all you do is tie the value to your crypto,

864
01:29:05,417 --> 01:29:06,776
to the United States dollar,

865
01:29:07,977 --> 01:29:09,656
you're always going to have people selling.

866
01:29:11,576 --> 01:29:15,977
So I don't understand how this bubble...

867
01:29:17,257 --> 01:29:19,896
The only narrative that Bitcoiners have is

868
01:29:19,896 --> 01:29:24,216
there's a maximum supply and all these people are buying it, hoarding it.

869
01:29:24,937 --> 01:29:28,456
That doesn't mean that you get a bid ask price to go up.

870
01:29:29,336 --> 01:29:30,617
That's not how order books work.

871
01:29:32,057 --> 01:29:33,817
Well, I think there's a more fundamental problem,

872
01:29:33,817 --> 01:29:36,377
which is it's kind of like we're climbing a ladder.

873
01:29:37,977 --> 01:29:40,857
Imagine two ladders and one of them is

874
01:29:42,377 --> 01:29:46,216
almost long enough to reach the top where we're trying to get to.

875
01:29:47,417 --> 01:29:51,656
This is like this very old game that they used to make for kids for the computer.

876
01:29:51,656 --> 01:29:53,417
Ladder shoots, shoots ladders.

877
01:29:54,136 --> 01:29:54,857
Treasure Mountain.

878
01:29:56,857 --> 01:29:59,497
Because in one of them there's a ladder that doesn't quite reach

879
01:29:59,497 --> 01:30:01,737
and you have to go back down and you have to go all the way around.

880
01:30:03,576 --> 01:30:05,257
It happens sometimes in video games.

881
01:30:05,977 --> 01:30:08,057
The ladder is almost to the top.

882
01:30:08,057 --> 01:30:10,057
So this is the Ponzi scheme ladder.

883
01:30:10,057 --> 01:30:12,776
And then there's another ladder that actually does reach the top.

884
01:30:12,776 --> 01:30:14,216
So it pays off at the very end.

885
01:30:14,776 --> 01:30:17,737
And so you can look at the ladder as the number go up,

886
01:30:17,737 --> 01:30:20,617
like the price going up, like you're getting closer and closer to your goal.

887
01:30:21,497 --> 01:30:29,016
But the final rung of the ladder is that is actually getting the real users.

888
01:30:29,016 --> 01:30:32,696
So you can get, even if you're not acquiring real users now,

889
01:30:32,696 --> 01:30:35,417
if you are acquiring the real users in the future,

890
01:30:37,096 --> 01:30:41,336
that is enough to make the number go up today.

891
01:30:41,336 --> 01:30:45,177
Because you can say, well, we anticipate that we will get these users.

892
01:30:45,977 --> 01:30:48,057
And so the number can go up and up and up and up.

893
01:30:48,057 --> 01:30:51,656
And then you finally cross the last rung and you make it up to the...

894
01:30:51,656 --> 01:30:53,896
It sounds like a VC presentation.

895
01:30:54,536 --> 01:30:55,016
Well, it is.

896
01:30:55,016 --> 01:30:56,297
This is how finance works.

897
01:30:56,456 --> 01:31:02,456
Finance says, basically, that we will be able to add a lot of value in the future.

898
01:31:03,177 --> 01:31:06,297
Because this is part of the beauty of finance,

899
01:31:06,297 --> 01:31:09,177
is that if you didn't have the finance world,

900
01:31:09,817 --> 01:31:11,417
and let's say someone had an idea,

901
01:31:11,417 --> 01:31:13,576
let's say someone is out there mowing lawns.

902
01:31:14,216 --> 01:31:16,776
This is the neighborhood lawn mowing kid.

903
01:31:17,737 --> 01:31:18,776
He's mowing his lawns.

904
01:31:19,336 --> 01:31:23,656
And he has an idea for a better lawn mowing configuration or whatever.

905
01:31:24,617 --> 01:31:26,216
In a world where there's no finance,

906
01:31:26,216 --> 01:31:31,096
he has to personally save up enough money to upgrade his lawnmower

907
01:31:31,096 --> 01:31:33,336
or do whatever it is that he thinks is the most efficient.

908
01:31:33,336 --> 01:31:35,656
He has to personally save it up.

909
01:31:35,656 --> 01:31:40,216
And even if one of the people whose house he cuts the grass for,

910
01:31:40,776 --> 01:31:48,297
that might be an elderly retired man with a lot of cash under the mattress.

911
01:31:48,297 --> 01:31:49,656
He's got a ton of money saved up.

912
01:31:50,536 --> 01:31:54,136
So it's a situation where a young entrepreneur has an idea,

913
01:31:54,136 --> 01:31:56,617
but they don't have time and they don't have money,

914
01:31:56,617 --> 01:31:58,857
and they can't take them a while to save it up.

915
01:31:58,857 --> 01:32:02,456
And we have an old man who has money, but he's not getting a return on it.

916
01:32:02,456 --> 01:32:04,536
It's just sitting there doing nothing.

917
01:32:04,536 --> 01:32:09,096
And finance lets you manipulate space and time and say,

918
01:32:09,096 --> 01:32:13,817
well, listen, I'll be making a lot of money in two years,

919
01:32:13,817 --> 01:32:17,497
but now I need the money to buy a new lawnmower or whatever.

920
01:32:18,456 --> 01:32:19,177
Blah, blah, blah.

921
01:32:20,617 --> 01:32:23,817
So finance is very useful and it's part of civilization.

922
01:32:23,817 --> 01:32:26,456
So the haters of finance are wrong.

923
01:32:27,576 --> 01:32:28,216
I agree with that.

924
01:32:28,216 --> 01:32:30,297
But how does that apply to what you're building?

925
01:32:31,336 --> 01:32:33,257
Well, I was talking about the ladder and the rung.

926
01:32:33,257 --> 01:32:35,576
So I was saying the final rung is you reach,

927
01:32:35,576 --> 01:32:39,177
we have lots of users who are happy with Bitcoin.

928
01:32:40,216 --> 01:32:42,136
And so you can get number go up.

929
01:32:42,136 --> 01:32:43,977
You can get number go up, go up, go up, go up.

930
01:32:45,257 --> 01:32:46,696
As long as you don't have those users,

931
01:32:46,696 --> 01:32:48,456
but you just need to be able to get them eventually.

932
01:32:49,096 --> 01:32:52,617
But if you never get them, then you are in a Ponzi situation.

933
01:32:53,977 --> 01:32:56,696
Yeah, the new users are the next liquidity for the old users.

934
01:32:57,817 --> 01:32:59,336
That's what you're saying.

935
01:32:59,336 --> 01:33:01,096
I'm saying that whether or not that's true,

936
01:33:01,096 --> 01:33:04,297
that all hinges on whether or not we end up getting real users.

937
01:33:04,297 --> 01:33:05,417
So that's why I'm focused.

938
01:33:05,417 --> 01:33:07,016
I try to stay focused on the real user.

939
01:33:09,177 --> 01:33:09,737
That's okay.

940
01:33:09,737 --> 01:33:10,536
I see what you're saying.

941
01:33:10,536 --> 01:33:13,016
So what you're saying is you want to make Bitcoin usable.

942
01:33:13,016 --> 01:33:13,977
So new users.

943
01:33:13,977 --> 01:33:15,016
Yeah, we need real users.

944
01:33:15,817 --> 01:33:18,857
People who pay transaction fee on the network, to me,

945
01:33:18,857 --> 01:33:20,377
that's more like sales revenue.

946
01:33:21,177 --> 01:33:23,737
And the number go up is like saying like the stock price.

947
01:33:23,737 --> 01:33:24,696
All right, we got Sergio.

948
01:33:24,696 --> 01:33:26,696
We got the great Sergio.

949
01:33:26,696 --> 01:33:27,417
Thank you for having me.

950
01:33:28,696 --> 01:33:29,177
No problem.

951
01:33:29,177 --> 01:33:29,497
Yeah, thank you.

952
01:33:29,497 --> 01:33:29,997
Hi, Paul.

953
01:33:31,336 --> 01:33:31,977
Hello, hello.

954
01:33:33,177 --> 01:33:33,737
Hi, everyone.

955
01:33:35,336 --> 01:33:39,576
I have a lot of questions and a lot of things that could be improved.

956
01:33:39,576 --> 01:33:43,576
And I don't know why you chose those decisions.

957
01:33:43,576 --> 01:33:45,417
And I'm going to go one by one.

958
01:33:45,417 --> 01:33:47,497
Maybe you have good answers to them.

959
01:33:47,497 --> 01:33:51,257
The first one is you claim that this fork is an airdrop.

960
01:33:51,896 --> 01:33:53,257
But it's not.

961
01:33:53,257 --> 01:33:55,656
It's something I would call a fork drop.

962
01:33:56,456 --> 01:34:00,617
Because basically, you are not fixing a snapshot of the UTXOs.

963
01:34:00,617 --> 01:34:04,136
You're just those UTXOs are changing all the time.

964
01:34:04,136 --> 01:34:07,656
So basically, it's not like you take a snapshot

965
01:34:07,656 --> 01:34:11,177
and then you give the money to those owners.

966
01:34:12,057 --> 01:34:16,297
This you don't implement full replay protection on both sides,

967
01:34:16,297 --> 01:34:20,536
like changing the signature scheme or a single bidding somewhere

968
01:34:20,536 --> 01:34:24,297
so that there is no possibility of transaction reply.

969
01:34:24,297 --> 01:34:30,057
And that makes it very, very hard for users and for sidechains,

970
01:34:30,057 --> 01:34:36,377
for anyone to claim your tokens without putting their own private keys in danger.

971
01:34:36,377 --> 01:34:39,497
So it's like if we take what you're saying,

972
01:34:39,497 --> 01:34:41,817
like this town where there's women and children,

973
01:34:41,817 --> 01:34:43,497
you want to save the women and children,

974
01:34:43,497 --> 01:34:44,456
but you are telling them,

975
01:34:44,456 --> 01:34:46,377
OK, you have to jump in three seconds.

976
01:34:46,377 --> 01:34:47,576
Two, one, zero.

977
01:34:47,576 --> 01:34:50,456
And if they don't jump in time and they keep transacting,

978
01:34:50,456 --> 01:34:54,536
they actually lose all their eCash tokens

979
01:34:54,536 --> 01:34:56,456
because they didn't act too fast.

980
01:34:56,456 --> 01:35:00,136
So I don't know why you chose to do this kind of fork drop.

981
01:35:03,336 --> 01:35:04,937
OK, but then that's two.

982
01:35:04,937 --> 01:35:07,896
So I think you said you had a few things.

983
01:35:07,896 --> 01:35:09,737
So I guess we'll just do those two first.

984
01:35:09,737 --> 01:35:14,696
So first of all, the terminology as to the fork drop versus air drop versus hard fork

985
01:35:14,696 --> 01:35:17,016
or whatever, I have no idea.

986
01:35:18,456 --> 01:35:22,536
We'll just do it and then people can decide what they want to call it.

987
01:35:23,497 --> 01:35:24,696
They can name it whatever they like,

988
01:35:24,696 --> 01:35:26,536
and I'm not going to try to stop anyone.

989
01:35:26,536 --> 01:35:28,057
But what it is is because it also has,

990
01:35:29,336 --> 01:35:33,497
as you say, unlike a snapshot thing,

991
01:35:34,617 --> 01:35:37,257
we actually have the whole blockchain history also.

992
01:35:37,257 --> 01:35:40,536
So it's not even like we just import the UTXO set.

993
01:35:40,536 --> 01:35:42,857
So in that way, I'm not sure.

994
01:35:42,857 --> 01:35:44,136
It is kind of like a hard fork.

995
01:35:44,136 --> 01:35:46,536
But then Mr. Hoddle was saying, well, it's not really a hard fork

996
01:35:46,536 --> 01:35:48,937
because the old BTC is still going to exist.

997
01:35:48,937 --> 01:35:49,497
So I don't know.

998
01:35:49,497 --> 01:35:51,737
Maybe I think we just need new words for all these things

999
01:35:51,737 --> 01:35:54,617
because the words that we have don't seem to be helping anyone.

1000
01:35:54,617 --> 01:35:56,617
But even though the word situation is screwed up,

1001
01:35:57,576 --> 01:36:00,776
people seem to understand what's happening anyway.

1002
01:36:00,776 --> 01:36:06,617
So we should write to the dictionary and ask for some better words.

1003
01:36:07,576 --> 01:36:10,696
But yeah, I don't know exactly what the perfect word would be.

1004
01:36:10,696 --> 01:36:17,417
But it is an intentional split off of BTC

1005
01:36:17,417 --> 01:36:19,977
where everyone gets more coins.

1006
01:36:19,977 --> 01:36:22,536
All BTC owners get more coins.

1007
01:36:22,536 --> 01:36:28,696
So the replay protection, it's interesting.

1008
01:36:28,696 --> 01:36:30,776
Everyone has a lot of different views on this.

1009
01:36:30,776 --> 01:36:35,016
And a lot of people seem to want similar things.

1010
01:36:35,576 --> 01:36:39,977
The metaphor is very interesting, where it's kind of like you're saying,

1011
01:36:39,977 --> 01:36:42,216
I was thinking of it more the opposite way,

1012
01:36:42,216 --> 01:36:48,057
where if they do nothing, then they can wait.

1013
01:36:48,057 --> 01:36:50,776
And the coins will be, if they just don't move either coins,

1014
01:36:50,776 --> 01:36:55,896
then if they do move, both coins will be like a Dropbox.

1015
01:36:55,896 --> 01:36:57,737
It's like a Dropbox that's synchronized.

1016
01:36:57,737 --> 01:37:02,536
Yeah, if you spend the BTC, then you will lose the eCash.

1017
01:37:03,016 --> 01:37:09,737
But here's the point, is you didn't want to leave.

1018
01:37:09,737 --> 01:37:10,617
You didn't jump on.

1019
01:37:11,257 --> 01:37:13,257
So you missed the boat.

1020
01:37:14,296 --> 01:37:16,936
It gives people an incentive to get on the boat as quickly as possible.

1021
01:37:16,936 --> 01:37:19,576
Yeah, but that's not always possible.

1022
01:37:19,576 --> 01:37:25,576
I'll give you an example of Roostock or Liquid or any, or Citria or any sidechain.

1023
01:37:25,576 --> 01:37:29,897
Basically, you have a thousand, tens of thousands of active users.

1024
01:37:30,617 --> 01:37:35,497
So either we, I mean, in Roostock, the private keys are not even available.

1025
01:37:35,497 --> 01:37:37,336
No one has the access to private keys.

1026
01:37:37,336 --> 01:37:40,216
Private keys of the bridge are actually in HSMs.

1027
01:37:40,216 --> 01:37:45,257
These HSMs do not handle or backup or do anything with the private keys.

1028
01:37:45,257 --> 01:37:51,657
So essentially, if we would like to help the community to split their eCash coins

1029
01:37:51,657 --> 01:37:55,416
and give them back to the community, I don't know how, but let's see.

1030
01:37:55,416 --> 01:37:59,657
We would need to prepare a hard fork with all the community support

1031
01:37:59,657 --> 01:38:04,537
in a very short time just to be able to recover those coins in some way.

1032
01:38:05,816 --> 01:38:11,096
Trying to use the existing HSMs to split them will be very problematic.

1033
01:38:11,096 --> 01:38:14,617
And even in that case, we wouldn't know who to give the coins to,

1034
01:38:14,617 --> 01:38:17,977
because there are some smart contracts that they are the owners of the coins.

1035
01:38:17,977 --> 01:38:19,657
These are not owned by people.

1036
01:38:19,657 --> 01:38:21,737
These are owned by smart contracts.

1037
01:38:21,737 --> 01:38:24,216
So it's kind of a very complicated situation.

1038
01:38:24,216 --> 01:38:27,416
And if we don't, I mean, as a community, if we don't split the coins,

1039
01:38:27,977 --> 01:38:32,936
then what can happen is like, you know, people can have a run to the bridge

1040
01:38:32,936 --> 01:38:37,096
trying to get out of the bridge of the sidechain before this event,

1041
01:38:37,096 --> 01:38:38,617
just to claim the coins.

1042
01:38:38,617 --> 01:38:40,696
And that would be terrible because, you know,

1043
01:38:40,696 --> 01:38:44,216
the bridge has a limited amount of UTXOs that can, you know,

1044
01:38:44,216 --> 01:38:47,336
be recycled during the payout process.

1045
01:38:47,336 --> 01:38:50,617
So we can have a run to the peg and a de-peg.

1046
01:38:50,617 --> 01:38:54,696
So it's kind of very, very problematic for any of these sidechains.

1047
01:38:54,696 --> 01:38:59,816
So I'm pretty sure that your woman and children live on the sidechains,

1048
01:38:59,816 --> 01:39:04,696
because that's where the Bitcoins are being traded and used for everyday use,

1049
01:39:04,696 --> 01:39:08,617
not the Bitcoiners that are holding them in cold storage.

1050
01:39:08,617 --> 01:39:14,296
So you are actually hurting the people that use Bitcoin most as a means of payments.

1051
01:39:14,296 --> 01:39:16,777
And I really think that's a bad idea.

1052
01:39:20,216 --> 01:39:22,696
Well, a lot of that makes some sense to me, but not all of it.

1053
01:39:22,696 --> 01:39:25,576
So first of all, as you know, BIP300 works the same way.

1054
01:39:25,576 --> 01:39:29,096
Only so many people can come out of the bridge at a time.

1055
01:39:30,296 --> 01:39:34,617
I think it's going to be very hard to do like a hard fork,

1056
01:39:35,176 --> 01:39:38,137
unless you adopt the principle that says,

1057
01:39:38,696 --> 01:39:40,537
listen, we're hard forking the network.

1058
01:39:41,576 --> 01:39:44,056
This is the blockchain and the blockchain knows,

1059
01:39:45,257 --> 01:39:50,777
the blockchain knows what, who owns which coins on L1.

1060
01:39:51,737 --> 01:39:56,377
And now, I have a question for you about like, okay, so in the case of,

1061
01:39:57,977 --> 01:40:01,336
you say that there will be no...

1062
01:40:01,888 --> 01:40:05,648
Like, could you copy and paste the entire Rootstock?

1063
01:40:07,328 --> 01:40:11,248
Like, because what you're saying is there's this situation where there's HSMs that you don't

1064
01:40:11,248 --> 01:40:17,728
actually know the private key, but in the L1 Bitcoin blockchain, the coins have been sent into

1065
01:40:17,728 --> 01:40:27,807
some script. And isn't it the case that in the eCash world, you can just restart the Rootstock,

1066
01:40:28,688 --> 01:40:31,168
you can copy and paste the whole Rootstock universe over there.

1067
01:40:32,047 --> 01:40:37,328
There'll be two entire universes of Rootstock and one... Because shouldn't it be the exact

1068
01:40:37,328 --> 01:40:43,568
same sequence of messages in both cases? Well, still we have to hard fork in some way

1069
01:40:43,568 --> 01:40:49,088
too, because a Rootstock has a Bitcoin oracle. It follows Bitcoin as an SPV client that is

1070
01:40:49,088 --> 01:40:55,088
embedded in a smart contract. So it just follows the highest hash rate. So if we want to create

1071
01:40:55,088 --> 01:41:00,768
a split of Rootstock that follows another chain that has initially lower or has a hard fork,

1072
01:41:00,768 --> 01:41:05,807
then we have to hard fork Rootstock anyway. So yeah, it could be possible to split Rootstock in

1073
01:41:05,807 --> 01:41:11,887
two. It would be very problematic because obviously, who is going to merge mine the new

1074
01:41:13,728 --> 01:41:20,368
eCash Rootstock? I don't know. We will have to run to find miners that want to merge mine

1075
01:41:20,368 --> 01:41:26,048
this other chain. Yeah, potentially it could be possible. But I think it will be horribly

1076
01:41:26,048 --> 01:41:31,248
difficult to pull out. Yeah, it might be. Wouldn't it be theoretically the case that you could come

1077
01:41:31,248 --> 01:41:37,248
back later and you could say, if you were holding... If you had roots, you could come back

1078
01:41:37,248 --> 01:41:41,328
months later. I'm just saying, we're just talking theoretically here. I don't know if it's feasible.

1079
01:41:41,328 --> 01:41:50,127
But you could say months later, you could say, hey, if you had BTC in a Rootstock sidechain

1080
01:41:50,127 --> 01:41:57,328
in August 2026, there's a bunch of eCash waiting in the parallel world of the Rootstock,

1081
01:41:57,328 --> 01:42:01,328
and then we're going to slowly withdraw it all and give it to you. It's not possible,

1082
01:42:01,328 --> 01:42:07,487
because if we do nothing, as a community, we'll be under an attack. Anyone can peg in

1083
01:42:08,368 --> 01:42:13,807
bitcoins that have already been split, and then peg out bitcoins that are not yet split and cash

1084
01:42:13,807 --> 01:42:19,167
out. And I've done some math to see how much money will be there to grab. I don't know,

1085
01:42:19,167 --> 01:42:23,727
but wouldn't that be... Okay, sorry, finish your thought. Yeah, so depending on the value of this

1086
01:42:23,727 --> 01:42:31,087
new token, it can be a couple of million dollars. Even if the token is initially low value, it's

1087
01:42:31,087 --> 01:42:37,568
going to be a lot of money. So I'm pretty sure that someone is going to recycle bitcoins and

1088
01:42:38,768 --> 01:42:45,488
peg in, split bitcoins and peg out bitcoins that have not been split and take all the money. So

1089
01:42:45,488 --> 01:42:49,328
two months later, there will be no eCash tokens to split.

1090
01:42:51,167 --> 01:42:56,048
So what you're saying is... I think so. I'm just making sure I understand it. So you're saying

1091
01:42:56,048 --> 01:43:02,128
that they will spin up the parallel eCash Rootstock, because don't they have to do that?

1092
01:43:04,128 --> 01:43:11,488
They want the eCash out of the Rootstock UTXO pool. Yeah, they don't have to split Rootstock.

1093
01:43:11,488 --> 01:43:17,167
They peg in bitcoins that have already been split, like these bitcoins have no

1094
01:43:18,527 --> 01:43:24,927
eCash tokens associated with them. And then they would peg out UTXO that have not moved.

1095
01:43:24,927 --> 01:43:27,887
So the Rootstock will find it. Right. Okay. Yeah, I get it.

1096
01:43:28,447 --> 01:43:35,408
So you basically consume all the eCash tokens that are hold associated with it. And

1097
01:43:36,128 --> 01:43:40,688
this could be prevented if you take a snapshot. So if you take a snapshot,

1098
01:43:40,688 --> 01:43:47,328
a certain point in time, then yes, we can do a lot of things with time, trying to find the owners

1099
01:43:47,328 --> 01:43:55,167
of each one of these bitcoins or eCash tokens and distribute them. But this way you do it,

1100
01:43:55,167 --> 01:44:00,287
we are really pressed on what to do before the split date.

1101
01:44:03,248 --> 01:44:07,408
Yeah, I hear. Because the ideal thing I was thinking of is that this does give people

1102
01:44:08,367 --> 01:44:15,087
more of an incentive to look into it earlier. So I guess it works a little too well, maybe,

1103
01:44:15,087 --> 01:44:23,487
in this particular bizarre case. But I think you want it to be like, if you add... The problem

1104
01:44:23,487 --> 01:44:27,728
with adding replay protection is it's sort of saying we have a situation where someone's

1105
01:44:27,728 --> 01:44:32,128
indifferent and they haven't looked into the... Well, hey, here's a weird question. Why don't

1106
01:44:32,607 --> 01:44:40,128
you just do the drain attack yourself and then you would get all the eCash? You could probably do

1107
01:44:40,128 --> 01:44:46,767
it... I don't know if you were technically in a position to do it very quickly before...

1108
01:44:48,527 --> 01:44:54,607
Yeah, it would require... Bitcoins take, in the POPEC, which is the current bridge, takes

1109
01:44:55,087 --> 01:45:02,848
36 hours to... So 10 hours to get in and 36 hours to get out. So you will need a lot of liquidity,

1110
01:45:02,848 --> 01:45:09,968
a lot of collateral to just keep that flowing. I would say in a hundred or several hundred bitcoins

1111
01:45:09,968 --> 01:45:19,087
to make sure that you... Yeah, I mean, it could be done, but again, who and whose responsibility

1112
01:45:19,087 --> 01:45:25,008
to do that? I wouldn't do it myself because I don't think, from the legal point of view,

1113
01:45:25,008 --> 01:45:28,288
whose eCash are these? That's another important question, right?

1114
01:45:30,288 --> 01:45:35,968
Yeah, I agree. And certainly it's an unintentional... I certainly had no intention of

1115
01:45:37,408 --> 01:45:45,807
making it so... When people have these shared UTXO schemes, the ideal thing, in a way,

1116
01:45:46,767 --> 01:45:54,448
would be if there was some kind of... It's kind of hard to explain. I don't know if the audience

1117
01:45:54,448 --> 01:45:59,008
will get it at all, but if there was some kind of super replay where it would be aware of the

1118
01:45:59,008 --> 01:46:05,647
Rootstock thing so that when the person put a split coin in, it would know that it can only get...

1119
01:46:07,327 --> 01:46:10,607
That would be awesome. If you can implement... I mean, we can...

1120
01:46:10,607 --> 01:46:15,408
That would be kind of hard. One reason why it would be hard is because you have to go down

1121
01:46:15,408 --> 01:46:21,087
the line and figure out, each time someone's sharing a UTXO... Well, this is what the very

1122
01:46:21,087 --> 01:46:26,128
first comment I took was about. You have to say, well, the network says these are the owners of

1123
01:46:26,128 --> 01:46:31,807
the UTXOs. And then the other stuff that people are saying, like on Lightning or on... It's kind

1124
01:46:31,807 --> 01:46:36,767
of like their own business because they've taken it off of the L1 network. And so that's kind of

1125
01:46:36,767 --> 01:46:42,607
the contradiction of it. But that would be like the... But you came with a good idea. Let's say

1126
01:46:42,607 --> 01:46:50,688
we put an OP_RETURN, let's say OP_RETURN and some specific magic word there. And when you see these

1127
01:46:50,688 --> 01:46:56,527
transactions, these are no longer valid on your eCash. That's enough. It could be anything. It

1128
01:46:56,527 --> 01:47:01,968
could be an nlock value. It could be just... We actually have that already, Sergio. So I don't

1129
01:47:01,968 --> 01:47:07,248
know if you... Because the way we have it set up is that you can disable the replay if you run our

1130
01:47:08,047 --> 01:47:12,688
software. So it goes back the other way. So we have this thing where there's like an extra byte

1131
01:47:12,688 --> 01:47:19,008
in the TXID that's valid on the eCash world, but not in the BTC world, because it results

1132
01:47:19,008 --> 01:47:22,527
in a completely different TXID. We did the opposite. We did something that

1133
01:47:23,248 --> 01:47:30,288
existing Bitcoin transactions can have that prevents them from being replayed on eCash.

1134
01:47:30,288 --> 01:47:34,047
That would be enough. Well, that's the kind of thing I didn't really want. But I think,

1135
01:47:34,047 --> 01:47:39,327
since you can run Rootstock, though, maybe you could make it so that anything that's

1136
01:47:39,327 --> 01:47:44,688
pegged into Rootstock... I don't know exactly. You know what I mean? You could make it so that...

1137
01:47:44,688 --> 01:47:48,128
There's probably something. We could probably... I have to think about it some more.

1138
01:47:50,288 --> 01:47:53,888
All someone told me was that you wrote an article about not liking the... So I was like...

1139
01:47:57,408 --> 01:48:02,288
It brings a lot of trouble to our sidechain. That's the main reason. And I have some other

1140
01:48:02,288 --> 01:48:08,767
reasons, like grabbing Satoshi coins, but that's minor. I would say that the main problem for me

1141
01:48:08,767 --> 01:48:14,927
is the way you implemented replay protection and how that affects the sidechains. That's

1142
01:48:14,927 --> 01:48:19,968
the main issue for me. Philosophically, the replay protection is sort of trying to say,

1143
01:48:22,288 --> 01:48:26,848
the people who are indifferent and they're not looking into either coin,

1144
01:48:27,807 --> 01:48:33,727
they're not trying to move only one coin. So it's kind of like

1145
01:48:33,727 --> 01:48:37,328
syncing. It's kind of like keeping the network synchronized and saying, this is actually activity

1146
01:48:37,328 --> 01:48:43,807
on both networks. And I'm saying, as soon as someone cares, if you care enough to split the

1147
01:48:43,807 --> 01:48:51,167
coins, you can. And if you don't want to split them, then you don't want them.

1148
01:48:51,648 --> 01:48:57,807
But there is another way to implement the same logic, which would be to have a snapshot and

1149
01:48:58,607 --> 01:49:05,487
allow the claiming time to be six months, let's say. Any number of months, like two, three,

1150
01:49:05,487 --> 01:49:11,487
four months. But yet you still have a snapshot. So that would allow us to have a certain amount

1151
01:49:11,487 --> 01:49:17,008
of time to do something. At the same time, it would give you this idea that if you do nothing

1152
01:49:17,008 --> 01:49:21,568
for three months, then you've lost your access to your eCash coin.

1153
01:49:34,847 --> 01:49:36,367
Are you there? Or I lost connection.

1154
01:49:41,328 --> 01:49:45,888
It didn't happen. But yeah, I don't know. For some reason, the space has crashed for me sometimes.

1155
01:49:47,888 --> 01:49:54,927
So yeah, okay, that's an interesting idea. But yeah, I'm not leaning towards

1156
01:49:56,128 --> 01:50:00,287
changing it. But I think there is some way between the splitting tool and between the...

1157
01:50:01,167 --> 01:50:07,727
I think there will be some way. I do wonder about the philosophy of it all,

1158
01:50:07,727 --> 01:50:14,528
because it's like you're saying... But yeah, it is interesting that you

1159
01:50:15,328 --> 01:50:20,847
could just say import this UTXO set, and how would that really be different? And then you

1160
01:50:20,847 --> 01:50:24,768
wouldn't have to import 900,000 blocks and all this other stuff.

1161
01:50:26,927 --> 01:50:34,768
I mean, to me, it just seems like it's working at dealing with the alternative approach that

1162
01:50:34,768 --> 01:50:38,688
other people have used, which is federated sidechains. And that just points out some

1163
01:50:38,688 --> 01:50:41,008
of the flaws in that methodology.

1164
01:50:41,568 --> 01:50:48,367
Yeah, I'm inclined to say, let's embrace the chaos and just not your keys, not your coins.

1165
01:50:48,367 --> 01:50:55,167
It's very ironic. But yeah, I still think about it. But we had a bunch of people who requested,

1166
01:50:55,167 --> 01:51:02,768
and now it's already 3.54. Time really flies. So we'll try to get to some more questions,

1167
01:51:03,648 --> 01:51:05,167
unless Sergio wants to say... We can...

1168
01:51:05,487 --> 01:51:08,927
No, no. I just want to thank you, Paul, for having the opportunity to say

1169
01:51:09,568 --> 01:51:16,047
these problems that it could bring to our community. I hope you could address them. Thanks.

1170
01:51:17,487 --> 01:51:20,208
Okay, thanks. Thanks very much. Thanks for coming up.

1171
01:51:22,287 --> 01:51:27,727
All right, we got a Crypto Voyager again. Hello.

1172
01:51:27,727 --> 01:51:33,248
Yeah, hi, Paul. Hi, Paul. I was thinking a little bit more about those things.

1173
01:51:33,328 --> 01:51:35,648
Thinking a little bit more about those sidechains.

1174
01:51:37,648 --> 01:51:43,328
The only thing connecting the sidechains with each other is just the money. Is that correct?

1175
01:51:46,448 --> 01:51:50,847
Well, in my conception, they're all merge-mined, and they have deposits and withdrawals. So these

1176
01:51:50,847 --> 01:51:57,167
are the connections. So from L1, you deposit coins into them. So otherwise, the coins don't exist

1177
01:51:57,167 --> 01:52:02,688
in the L2, and then you can withdraw, and then they're merge-mined also. Merge-mining has been

1178
01:52:02,688 --> 01:52:09,008
around for a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no. I have another question, a few abstract

1179
01:52:09,008 --> 01:52:18,287
layers further up. Let's say I have, on one sidechain, I have data, I don't know, some

1180
01:52:19,167 --> 01:52:26,448
prediction market or whatever. And on another sidechain, I have... I communicate with proof

1181
01:52:26,448 --> 01:52:32,768
of existence, some documents. And then on some other layer, I have something like BitVM,

1182
01:52:32,768 --> 01:52:35,888
some calculations. They don't see each other, do they?

1183
01:52:39,967 --> 01:52:44,128
No, they don't. But you could build an application that would see all of them. It would just...

1184
01:52:44,128 --> 01:52:49,888
That application would need to run a full node of all three. So there'd be like a blow-up in

1185
01:52:49,888 --> 01:52:55,568
the cost of full node. But again, we're living in a world where the computers and everything,

1186
01:52:55,568 --> 01:53:01,967
and the software, everything's improving. Yeah, but that's the defense that the BSV people said.

1187
01:53:03,088 --> 01:53:09,407
Yeah, I agree. They said that hardware costs are non-issue. I'm just... Well, I'm not saying it's

1188
01:53:09,407 --> 01:53:14,047
a non-issue. I was just asking. You asked the question about... The point of sidechains is

1189
01:53:14,047 --> 01:53:20,927
that they basically allow you to opt-in, like a la carte. So like BSV says you basically have

1190
01:53:20,927 --> 01:53:25,407
to eat all the food in the buffet. Like in that movie, Seven, when the guy... They forced

1191
01:53:25,407 --> 01:53:33,248
the guy to eat until he died. You have to have it all. And then so like maybe Bitcoin Core alone,

1192
01:53:33,248 --> 01:53:39,088
that's just like you only get to eat the soup and the crackers, and you don't get to eat anything

1193
01:53:39,088 --> 01:53:49,248
else. Is that so though? So... Well, it's a metaphor. So like... Okay, so here's my take.

1194
01:53:49,328 --> 01:53:57,407
Here's my take. If I want to do something like an if-then-that, yeah? There's this web page

1195
01:53:57,407 --> 01:54:05,487
that says if-then-that. If this happens, then do that. Then I need to have a communication

1196
01:54:05,487 --> 01:54:11,487
to the different sidechains. And the BSV people say, yeah, well, okay, we're going to stuff you

1197
01:54:12,128 --> 01:54:22,768
like what you call it, French goose liver, foie gras. Okay? You say, no, that's stupid.

1198
01:54:23,407 --> 01:54:27,088
You say that's... Well, it's not just you that say that's stupid. It's all what the

1199
01:54:27,088 --> 01:54:31,407
small blockers say that's stupid. Okay, fine, whatever. Okay? Now you say, no, no,

1200
01:54:31,407 --> 01:54:38,287
we're going to do it a la carte. But in a la carte, I would have to also again do the foie gras.

1201
01:54:38,927 --> 01:54:43,487
I would also have to have the hardware for all of those. You wouldn't in that... Instead of

1202
01:54:43,487 --> 01:54:52,927
specializing in my single application and by game theory, be confident that the

1203
01:54:53,487 --> 01:55:00,448
transactions providers do have a full copy. And honestly, I don't even care about the full copy.

1204
01:55:00,607 --> 01:55:07,167
About the full copy, I just want with... What's it called? With the leaves,

1205
01:55:07,167 --> 01:55:13,727
with the Merkle trees and the Merkle trees, just the transactions that are interesting to me. Those

1206
01:55:13,727 --> 01:55:20,208
are the ones that I want to copy. And I can then, if they're all on one sidechain or they're all on

1207
01:55:20,208 --> 01:55:25,328
one chain, I don't care how you call it, but if they're all in one block, then they can communicate

1208
01:55:25,328 --> 01:55:29,648
with each other. I can't do that with different sidechains. You could do that. You could just

1209
01:55:29,648 --> 01:55:35,167
run a light client that is able to communicate with all of them and it wouldn't require you to

1210
01:55:35,167 --> 01:55:39,407
sync for all of those for the application you described about like... Oh, okay. So there is

1211
01:55:39,407 --> 01:55:44,607
a light client for sidechains. Yeah. You can build a light client in any way that cares about only

1212
01:55:44,607 --> 01:55:51,088
specific ones if you want. But I thought, okay, so how can I trust that the other guy that has

1213
01:55:51,088 --> 01:55:57,648
the full node won't tip me? Well, in the same way that you, if you run a light client for like SPV

1214
01:55:57,648 --> 01:56:04,528
proofs on BTC that you have sufficient nodes that you can pick one at random and, or just

1215
01:56:04,528 --> 01:56:11,167
not even at random, you can pick one you trust. Like if you would use block space, block.space.

1216
01:56:11,167 --> 01:56:18,208
Doesn't that then refute the idea that you cannot trust miners and that's the reason why

1217
01:56:18,208 --> 01:56:24,688
blocks have to be small? Well, yeah. I don't think that you need to not trust miners.

1218
01:56:24,688 --> 01:56:30,927
That's part of a thing, I suppose. Well, then we could have big blocks from the

1219
01:56:30,927 --> 01:56:38,448
beginning. The whole idea of sidechains is that we cannot trust miners

1220
01:56:38,448 --> 01:56:45,807
and we have to have a full node of the BTC layer one. And since that goes up,

1221
01:56:46,367 --> 01:56:52,287
we need sidechains. I don't think it's 100% right because the miners and the full nodes do

1222
01:56:52,287 --> 01:56:59,807
different things. And the way I see it, the sidechain idea says that you can a la carte,

1223
01:56:59,807 --> 01:57:07,008
increase. We have the base package, which is the L1, one megabyte Bitcoin Core, four megabyte,

1224
01:57:07,008 --> 01:57:11,408
whatever you want to call it. You have Bitcoin Core, small block, that's like the base package.

1225
01:57:11,408 --> 01:57:15,967
Everyone has to buy that in order to get, just to get in the door. It's like the cover charge in

1226
01:57:15,967 --> 01:57:21,168
the club. You got to pay that to get in. But then you can order whatever, in the sidechains world,

1227
01:57:21,168 --> 01:57:26,367
you can order whatever drinks you want. You can get bottle service, whatever. You get VIP,

1228
01:57:28,128 --> 01:57:35,967
et cetera. So it's like you can increase. Now, what do you get when you run a full node?

1229
01:57:36,768 --> 01:57:45,008
Well, that's the only way of knowing for sure that when you're looking at the actual blockchain,

1230
01:57:45,008 --> 01:57:49,808
and that's the way of measuring confirmations that is the most

1231
01:57:50,447 --> 01:57:56,768
reliable. If you don't, if you rely only on SPV, you need someone else to be running a full node.

1232
01:57:56,768 --> 01:58:03,168
An SPV node that's not paired with a full node cannot do anything. So you are a free rider to

1233
01:58:03,168 --> 01:58:09,408
some extent. Now, SPV is a brilliant idea. I love SPV, but we can't have everyone use SPV.

1234
01:58:09,487 --> 01:58:14,847
That's like saying... By that idea, then JK's light client is also a dud,

1235
01:58:16,048 --> 01:58:19,408
because I don't trust anybody enough to not to use a light client.

1236
01:58:21,408 --> 01:58:24,928
Yeah, I mean, maybe you don't. So which one is it now?

1237
01:58:27,248 --> 01:58:33,727
Well, I don't understand what you're saying with the... The reason, again, why SPV is not good,

1238
01:58:33,727 --> 01:58:38,607
for lack of a better word, because I love SPV. It's a great idea. It's a phenomenal idea. But

1239
01:58:38,607 --> 01:58:43,168
we can't build a world where everyone's focused on SPV. That's like building a world where

1240
01:58:43,168 --> 01:58:49,087
everyone's on welfare, and no one's paying any taxes. We pay transaction fees.

1241
01:58:50,607 --> 01:58:53,727
That's not enough. Someone has to pay the validation cost.

1242
01:58:54,847 --> 01:58:55,967
Yeah, that's in the transaction fees.

1243
01:58:57,487 --> 01:58:59,967
No, these are unrelated.

1244
01:59:01,808 --> 01:59:04,928
I didn't know, because every time I make a transaction,

1245
01:59:04,928 --> 01:59:08,048
I just pay transaction fees. I didn't know I paid validation fees.

1246
01:59:08,687 --> 01:59:12,528
No, I'm saying someone has to pay. When you run a full node, you pay the validation.

1247
01:59:12,528 --> 01:59:16,048
The difference between the transaction fee and the full node is, of course,

1248
01:59:16,048 --> 01:59:17,087
you pay the transaction fee.

1249
01:59:18,687 --> 01:59:24,768
Wait a minute, wait a minute. Okay, so first of all, I need a clarification. A full node doesn't

1250
01:59:24,768 --> 01:59:28,367
mine, is that correct? Yes, right.

1251
01:59:29,008 --> 01:59:34,207
Okay, so a full node does not mine. Okay, it just validates.

1252
01:59:35,408 --> 01:59:36,447
That's right.

1253
01:59:36,447 --> 01:59:41,567
Okay, now if I run a full node, I run it because I'm paranoid.

1254
01:59:42,607 --> 01:59:47,248
If I don't run a full node, I trust somebody else to run a full node.

1255
01:59:47,248 --> 01:59:51,248
Where exactly do I pay somebody else to run that validation node?

1256
01:59:53,487 --> 01:59:55,967
No, that's when you're using SPV and you're free riding.

1257
01:59:55,967 --> 02:00:01,648
No, there are 10,000, 20,000 full nodes that are validating, and I'm not paying them.

1258
02:00:03,372 --> 02:00:05,372
I know, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying you're not paying them.

1259
02:00:05,372 --> 02:00:13,372
Yeah, I'm not paying them. There are millions of people using Bitcoin and only 10,000, 20,000 full nodes.

1260
02:00:13,372 --> 02:00:18,372
So as you're saying, we have 99% free riders.

1261
02:00:18,372 --> 02:00:19,372
Right.

1262
02:00:19,372 --> 02:00:25,372
Aha, and it's still working, and everybody's fine and dandy. So where's the problem?

1263
02:00:26,372 --> 02:00:32,372
I completely 100% agree with you in every way. SPV is great. Free riding is great if you can get away with it.

1264
02:00:32,372 --> 02:00:40,372
But don't you understand, it's like this. When you're on an airplane, you want the stewardesses to be very confident and very happy.

1265
02:00:40,372 --> 02:00:42,372
Yes, I pay them with my ticket.

1266
02:00:42,372 --> 02:00:47,372
The pilot and the co-pilot, they should be paranoid because someone has to land the plane, you know what I mean?

1267
02:00:47,372 --> 02:00:53,372
Yeah, I'm paying them with my airfare. All those costs are inside.

1268
02:00:53,372 --> 02:00:58,372
But don't you understand that if you go into the engineering department, you don't want them just thinking,

1269
02:00:58,372 --> 02:01:00,372
oh, everything's going to be fine, we'll just free ride off of someone else.

1270
02:01:00,372 --> 02:01:04,372
We all can't cheat off of, it's like everyone in the class is cheating off of one.

1271
02:01:04,372 --> 02:01:13,372
No, no, no. When I make a normal transaction on BTC, where exactly is the field for me to pay for the validation?

1272
02:01:13,372 --> 02:01:17,372
No, you and I agree that there is no field.

1273
02:01:17,372 --> 02:01:19,372
There is no field for validation.

1274
02:01:20,372 --> 02:01:24,372
The validators do it altruistically or because they're paranoid.

1275
02:01:24,372 --> 02:01:30,372
We could flip it around and say, what if there were no full nodes and there was no copy of the blockchain anyway?

1276
02:01:30,372 --> 02:01:37,372
It would be the same way that it was in 2009, when the concept of a full validating node did not exist.

1277
02:01:37,372 --> 02:01:46,372
No, I'm asking you right now, let's say that there were no full nodes at all, for mining and non-mining.

1278
02:01:46,372 --> 02:01:48,372
And there's no copy of the blockchain exists.

1279
02:01:48,372 --> 02:01:50,372
Well, then what's going to happen next?

1280
02:01:50,372 --> 02:01:54,372
Well, if the copy of the blockchain does exist, the miners have it.

1281
02:01:54,372 --> 02:01:58,372
Everything happens so that you can mine in a new block.

1282
02:01:58,372 --> 02:02:01,372
Well, I don't think that's true. Are you like a Bitcoin SV supporter?

1283
02:02:01,372 --> 02:02:05,372
Don't shoot the messenger. The messenger doesn't matter.

1284
02:02:05,372 --> 02:02:10,372
It actually does matter because I'm just trying to figure out like what...

1285
02:02:10,372 --> 02:02:15,372
No, Paul, because I'm asking you questions that doesn't matter who the messenger is.

1286
02:02:15,372 --> 02:02:18,372
If you want to go ad hominem, you can go ad hominem.

1287
02:02:18,372 --> 02:02:20,372
But that doesn't actually...

1288
02:02:20,372 --> 02:02:25,372
It's because the people in a certain group, they all reliably believe different errors.

1289
02:02:25,372 --> 02:02:34,372
So sometimes I catch it from Mr. Hoddle and he has a completely different life philosophy than Adam Back or than Lukasz Giena.

1290
02:02:34,372 --> 02:02:37,372
Look, look, look, I have... Sorry to interrupt you.

1291
02:02:37,372 --> 02:02:47,372
I have a purple hat, OK, which basically tells you that you can put on whatever identity you want on me.

1292
02:02:47,372 --> 02:02:52,372
OK, let's not go ad hominem. Let's not say, oh, this guy is from this channel.

1293
02:02:52,372 --> 02:02:58,372
I already told you in the beginning a few weeks ago that I really hope that this project works.

1294
02:02:58,372 --> 02:03:01,372
OK, because he needs shaking up.

1295
02:03:02,372 --> 02:03:12,372
In the Bitcoin, some people in the Bitcoin SV community, maybe not all, but it's actually a myth that the miners need a full node.

1296
02:03:12,372 --> 02:03:17,372
And in fact, most miners do not actually run a full node.

1297
02:03:17,372 --> 02:03:20,372
So they don't need one and they mostly don't have one.

1298
02:03:20,372 --> 02:03:26,372
So the Bitcoin SV idea that the miners will always have a copy of the blockchain, that's not true today.

1299
02:03:26,372 --> 02:03:30,372
I mean, it could, it could conceivably be true in a world where everyone expects...

1300
02:03:30,372 --> 02:03:35,372
Is it true for the Merkle trees and the Merkle hash that it was once part of the blockchain?

1301
02:03:35,372 --> 02:03:39,372
Well, it's... I'm asking you about a world where no one...

1302
02:03:39,372 --> 02:03:44,372
If I have data, and I have a question, I have a question to you.

1303
02:03:44,372 --> 02:03:51,372
If I have data with the Merkle tree and the Merkle path and the Merkle leaves and all that other stuff,

1304
02:03:51,372 --> 02:03:59,372
and the 100 years down the road, we come together and I show you, hey, look, this thing was part of the blockchain.

1305
02:03:59,372 --> 02:04:02,372
And you look at the at the current tip.

1306
02:04:02,372 --> 02:04:08,372
Will you, will you be able to prove that it was part of the blockchain, yes or no?

1307
02:04:08,372 --> 02:04:13,372
We're still talking past each other, because forget 100 years, we're not going to make it 10 minutes to the next block,

1308
02:04:13,372 --> 02:04:22,372
unless someone knows whether or not each transaction is a double spend, or a, or something that spends the UTXO doesn't exist.

1309
02:04:22,372 --> 02:04:31,372
Because the only way to do that is with the full node is when you have the real copy of the blockchain that you actually have checked everything and you have everything organized into little tidy databases.

1310
02:04:31,372 --> 02:04:39,372
So we will never make it. So the full node is a required minimum costs required to view the blockchain and whatever.

1311
02:04:40,372 --> 02:04:45,372
And, and so someone has to pay that at least one person has to pay that cost.

1312
02:04:45,372 --> 02:04:49,372
And I think it's I personally, this is just a matter of personal opinion.

1313
02:04:49,372 --> 02:04:52,372
I think it's inappropriate for the technical people.

1314
02:04:52,372 --> 02:04:54,372
This is where I agree with the small blockers.

1315
02:04:54,372 --> 02:04:59,372
And I even agree with, to some extent, Greg Maxwell and Luke, Luke Dashjr.

1316
02:04:59,372 --> 02:05:06,372
That you like, yeah, the mechanic working on the plane, he should not be saying like, oh, yeah, this plane's never crashed.

1317
02:05:06,372 --> 02:05:09,372
It's gonna be fine. And he should be paranoid.

1318
02:05:09,372 --> 02:05:13,372
He should check and double check everything. But the stewardesses should really not be paranoid.

1319
02:05:13,372 --> 02:05:19,372
They shouldn't be going on the plane thinking, God, is this the time the plane is going to crash into a mountainside and kill everyone?

1320
02:05:19,372 --> 02:05:24,372
So I think when you have when you're designing the whole system, you cannot.

1321
02:05:24,372 --> 02:05:29,372
The free riding is you have to zoom out and look at all the different stakeholders.

1322
02:05:29,372 --> 02:05:36,372
In that analogy, in that analogy, where is the usual nine to five normie?

1323
02:05:36,372 --> 02:05:41,372
Is he just a passenger? I guess they would be a passenger.

1324
02:05:41,372 --> 02:05:45,372
I didn't really think about it. Do they have to have the full knowledge of how the plane works?

1325
02:05:45,372 --> 02:05:50,372
I don't think that's the point of the analogy. But is he then a free rider?

1326
02:05:50,372 --> 02:05:57,372
Does he not have then the full node? The people who don't run the full node and they only use SPV, they are the free riders.

1327
02:05:57,372 --> 02:06:00,372
I wrote an article about that. We're going to try to get because it's already four on nine.

1328
02:06:00,372 --> 02:06:04,372
I'm going to try to get to someone else. But please come back next week.

1329
02:06:04,372 --> 02:06:10,372
And also, I wrote an article called BSV, BSV and the data availability problem.

1330
02:06:10,372 --> 02:06:15,372
You can read it on Truthcoin.info. I wrote an article article about this topic.

1331
02:06:15,372 --> 02:06:19,372
And I did an interview with what's his name? The guy, Kurt. He's very nice.

1332
02:06:19,372 --> 02:06:23,372
I did an interview with him about this exact thing.

1333
02:06:23,372 --> 02:06:27,372
If people want to learn more about that, then I'm sure you can find it on YouTube.

1334
02:06:27,372 --> 02:06:32,372
And I thought Kurt was a super cool guy. And we had a lot of stuff that we agreed about.

1335
02:06:32,372 --> 02:06:35,372
And we made fun of Luke Dashjr and his weird idea.

1336
02:06:35,372 --> 02:06:38,372
But let's try to get to DecentralizedD.

1337
02:06:38,372 --> 02:06:40,372
Ordex.com.

1338
02:06:40,372 --> 02:06:43,372
I have nothing valuable to say. I just wanted to come up here and let everyone know.

1339
02:06:43,372 --> 02:06:48,372
If you're also extremely fucking confused by what this BSV-er just kept talking about for 20 minutes.

1340
02:06:48,372 --> 02:06:51,372
By the way, he is a BSV-er. You can tell by the PFP, Paul.

1341
02:06:51,372 --> 02:06:54,372
You really need to step your game up and get your noticing game up.

1342
02:06:54,372 --> 02:06:57,372
But yeah, I put a meme up top for you guys.

1343
02:06:57,372 --> 02:07:00,372
If you're thoroughly confused about what the fuck they just talked about for 30 minutes.

1344
02:07:00,372 --> 02:07:04,372
Just ignore it. It was absolutely pointless. Just check the meme. You'll see what's going on here.

1345
02:07:04,372 --> 02:07:07,372
Paul, I applaud you for having to deal with people all the time.

1346
02:07:07,372 --> 02:07:09,372
I just want to point out to everyone, Paul is forking.

1347
02:07:09,372 --> 02:07:12,372
So he doesn't have to argue with you fucking retards anymore.

1348
02:07:12,372 --> 02:07:14,372
So he can just prove it. It works.

1349
02:07:14,372 --> 02:07:17,372
And then you guys can come in hindsight 2020 bullshit for the next 10 years.

1350
02:07:17,372 --> 02:07:19,372
That's the point, okay?

1351
02:07:20,372 --> 02:07:23,372
Small tiny detail. It's just a fucking massive distraction.

1352
02:07:23,372 --> 02:07:26,372
The point is staying similar to Bitcoin, guys.

1353
02:07:26,372 --> 02:07:29,372
Because it's supposed to prove this works on Bitcoin.

1354
02:07:29,372 --> 02:07:34,372
If it goes on Monero and it goes on Litecoin, why didn't you build on Bitcoin Cash?

1355
02:07:34,372 --> 02:07:36,372
These are all brain-dead takes.

1356
02:07:36,372 --> 02:07:38,372
Justin, thank you for that.

1357
02:07:38,372 --> 02:07:41,372
All right, that was fun. Thanks a lot.

1358
02:07:41,372 --> 02:07:44,372
Well, that was pretty fun. Okay, well maybe, I don't know.

1359
02:07:44,372 --> 02:07:47,372
It's 4-11, so I guess we got Justin with a hand up though.

1360
02:07:47,372 --> 02:07:52,372
Maybe we can sneak a Justin in on the last final question of the day.

1361
02:07:53,372 --> 02:07:55,372
Yeah, hey, thanks, Paul.

1362
02:07:55,372 --> 02:08:00,372
So what exactly is the fee that you are speaking of?

1363
02:08:00,372 --> 02:08:02,372
Not the transaction fee.

1364
02:08:05,372 --> 02:08:08,372
This is a validation idea that you're talking about.

1365
02:08:10,372 --> 02:08:13,372
So the fee is validating the transaction?

1366
02:08:14,372 --> 02:08:18,372
I'm just asking. I think that's what you were referring to.

1367
02:08:18,372 --> 02:08:25,372
Okay, so there is a transaction fee in Bitcoin because there's a supply and demand for block space.

1368
02:08:25,372 --> 02:08:30,372
But separate from that, there are all kinds of other important prices in Bitcoin, like the exchange rate.

1369
02:08:30,372 --> 02:08:32,372
It's a completely different price.

1370
02:08:32,372 --> 02:08:35,372
But also the full node cost.

1371
02:08:35,372 --> 02:08:37,372
This is its own thing.

1372
02:08:37,372 --> 02:08:39,372
And it's very important.

1373
02:08:39,372 --> 02:08:42,372
And I wrote about it in an article that I mentioned.

1374
02:08:42,372 --> 02:08:45,372
It's called BSV and the Data Availability Problem.

1375
02:08:45,372 --> 02:08:50,372
And if you look, if you open any piece of blockchain software, including the Bitcoin SV full node,

1376
02:08:50,372 --> 02:08:54,372
and I opened it and I took a screenshot of it, and this is how it works, this is how it has to work.

1377
02:08:54,372 --> 02:09:01,372
If the node, I'm talking about the full node software, it will request the blockchain from people.

1378
02:09:01,372 --> 02:09:06,372
And if it gets a full block, it will scan every transaction in the block to check,

1379
02:09:06,372 --> 02:09:10,372
to see that every single transaction is following the rules, that none of them are double spends,

1380
02:09:10,372 --> 02:09:16,372
and none of them spend coins that don't exist, or invent coins out of thin air, etc., etc., etc.

1381
02:09:16,372 --> 02:09:19,372
So the full node does all this stuff.

1382
02:09:19,372 --> 02:09:27,372
And if it requests a block, or if it requests a transaction, this is the data availability problem.

1383
02:09:27,372 --> 02:09:32,372
If it requests a block, it says, someone give me block 700,014.

1384
02:09:32,372 --> 02:09:35,372
And no one gives them the block.

1385
02:09:35,372 --> 02:09:39,372
The full node will just assume that the block is invalid.

1386
02:09:39,372 --> 02:09:42,372
It's not going to stay on the fence about it.

1387
02:09:42,372 --> 02:09:49,372
It says, no, I'm only going to build on this block if it's valid,

1388
02:09:49,372 --> 02:09:53,372
and I'm only going to connect the next block in the sequence to this block

1389
02:09:53,372 --> 02:09:58,372
if you can't have an invalid parent for a child block.

1390
02:09:58,372 --> 02:10:03,372
So the full node software needs all the data to be available,

1391
02:10:03,372 --> 02:10:08,372
and that means that for everything in the blockchain,

1392
02:10:08,372 --> 02:10:12,372
the full node must first obtain, must download this data,

1393
02:10:12,372 --> 02:10:17,372
it must validate it, and it must store it, and then it must actually serve it back.

1394
02:10:17,372 --> 02:10:21,372
And if it's unable to do this, like if the network can't do this,

1395
02:10:21,372 --> 02:10:24,372
then the network just stops existing.

1396
02:10:24,372 --> 02:10:29,372
And so this cost, which is very low, because software has gotten cheaper,

1397
02:10:29,372 --> 02:10:32,372
and bandwidth has gotten cheaper, but it's a pretty low cost.

1398
02:10:32,372 --> 02:10:34,372
But this is an important cost to watch.

1399
02:10:34,372 --> 02:10:36,372
This is like if you're running a steam engine,

1400
02:10:36,372 --> 02:10:38,372
you're running a locomotive or something.

1401
02:10:38,372 --> 02:10:40,372
You have all these little gauges.

1402
02:10:40,372 --> 02:10:43,372
You'd be like, oh, you've got to watch this number.

1403
02:10:43,372 --> 02:10:47,372
And the people who want unlimited L1 block size,

1404
02:10:47,372 --> 02:10:51,372
they just say this number can just go as high as you want,

1405
02:10:51,372 --> 02:10:54,372
and everything will be fine because miners will take care of it.

1406
02:10:54,372 --> 02:10:56,372
And I explained in the essay why that's not true

1407
02:10:56,372 --> 02:10:59,372
and why it is, in fact, kind of –

1408
02:10:59,372 --> 02:11:03,372
it's kind of like you're relying – this is the Novocaine.

1409
02:11:03,372 --> 02:11:08,372
The SPV and this whole miners thing, this is like a Novocaine that it blinds you

1410
02:11:08,372 --> 02:11:17,372
to the real problems you experience from doing the work, which is not that hard.

1411
02:11:17,372 --> 02:11:21,372
Okay, yeah, so Justin has his hand up again.

1412
02:11:21,372 --> 02:11:23,372
So does that make sense?

1413
02:11:23,372 --> 02:11:27,372
Yeah, sorry about the background noise.

1414
02:11:27,372 --> 02:11:32,372
I think I understand the problem here, and I will read your article.

1415
02:11:32,372 --> 02:11:40,372
There is a very real example of this data availability problem

1416
02:11:40,372 --> 02:11:46,372
because the creator of Dogecoin, Billy M2K,

1417
02:11:46,372 --> 02:11:52,372
before he created Dogecoin, he created a currency that was based on –

1418
02:11:52,372 --> 02:11:55,372
it has the name of the currency from Animal Crossing.

1419
02:11:55,372 --> 02:11:59,372
I don't recall the name right now, but it was forgotten about,

1420
02:11:59,372 --> 02:12:01,372
completely forgotten about.

1421
02:12:01,372 --> 02:12:05,372
No one has a copy of that original chain to this day,

1422
02:12:05,372 --> 02:12:09,372
and so in 2024 people started mining it again.

1423
02:12:09,372 --> 02:12:13,372
Now if you had the original chain, there would be a history there,

1424
02:12:13,372 --> 02:12:21,372
but unfortunately no one has a copy of the original chain back in 2014.

1425
02:12:21,372 --> 02:12:23,372
Okay, my thing cut out again.

1426
02:12:23,372 --> 02:12:26,372
I think there's actually – for Ripple and Stellar,

1427
02:12:26,372 --> 02:12:29,372
I think some of the blocks went permanently missing,

1428
02:12:29,372 --> 02:12:32,372
and they just kind of just declared we don't care,

1429
02:12:32,372 --> 02:12:34,372
and that was something that people made fun of them for.

1430
02:12:34,372 --> 02:12:36,372
But I think you were talking about the guy who made Dogecoin,

1431
02:12:36,372 --> 02:12:39,372
he made something else, and then they lost some blocks or something.

1432
02:12:39,372 --> 02:12:43,372
Is that what you're saying? Could you repeat it a little bit?

1433
02:12:43,372 --> 02:12:45,372
Yeah, sorry about the noise. I'm in a quieter place.

1434
02:12:45,372 --> 02:12:48,372
Yeah, so he created something for Doge.

1435
02:12:48,372 --> 02:12:51,372
I forget the name of it, but everyone forgot about it.

1436
02:12:51,372 --> 02:12:53,372
No one mined it.

1437
02:12:53,372 --> 02:13:00,372
It had the same – it was the name of the currency from the video game,

1438
02:13:00,372 --> 02:13:02,372
Animal Crossing.

1439
02:13:02,372 --> 02:13:07,372
And so no one has a – so back in 2024, people rediscovered it,

1440
02:13:07,372 --> 02:13:11,372
and they started mining it again.

1441
02:13:11,372 --> 02:13:22,372
But from 2014, the genesis block, to 2024, no one has a copy of it.

1442
02:13:22,372 --> 02:13:25,372
That was my point.

1443
02:13:25,372 --> 02:13:28,372
Yeah, I mean that could be fine as long as nothing –

1444
02:13:28,372 --> 02:13:30,372
they're like no important – like if there were zero transactions

1445
02:13:30,372 --> 02:13:36,372
during that time, then there's nothing theoretically wrong with that per se.

1446
02:13:36,372 --> 02:13:39,372
But yeah, people want – everyone wants something for nothing.

1447
02:13:39,372 --> 02:13:43,372
And so we all wish – like I have a metaphor.

1448
02:13:43,372 --> 02:13:46,372
I don't know if it works, but in ASA, I have an early metaphor about like,

1449
02:13:46,372 --> 02:13:51,372
okay, every child out there, they just want to cry or whatever

1450
02:13:51,372 --> 02:13:52,372
until they get some ice cream.

1451
02:13:52,372 --> 02:13:54,372
Of course, children are great. We love the children.

1452
02:13:54,372 --> 02:13:59,372
But a child, they just want stuff all the time, and they never work.

1453
02:13:59,372 --> 02:14:02,372
They want to live in a house, but they don't build a house,

1454
02:14:02,372 --> 02:14:05,372
and they want ice cream, but they don't – it's not like they manufacture it.

1455
02:14:05,372 --> 02:14:08,372
They don't have a job. They don't pay for the ice cream.

1456
02:14:08,372 --> 02:14:12,372
So it's like everyone wants something for nothing, which is fine.

1457
02:14:12,372 --> 02:14:19,372
And it's even fine to build it allowing for an efficient quantity of free riders.

1458
02:14:19,372 --> 02:14:22,372
So some free riders is just fine.

1459
02:14:22,372 --> 02:14:26,372
And I disagree with Luke that absolutely if you have the network

1460
02:14:26,372 --> 02:14:29,372
and then you have five people join who aren't running a full node,

1461
02:14:29,372 --> 02:14:36,372
it's as if the whole network has exploded and burst into flames and is dead.

1462
02:14:36,372 --> 02:14:38,372
I don't have a problem with that.

1463
02:14:38,372 --> 02:14:40,372
I mean, I disagree with Luke, and I think that that's not right.

1464
02:14:40,372 --> 02:14:45,372
So you can have some free riders, but it is not a good idea for someone

1465
02:14:45,372 --> 02:14:49,372
considering the whole system as a whole to just say,

1466
02:14:49,372 --> 02:14:56,372
well, we can add lots and lots of free riders who are free riding

1467
02:14:56,372 --> 02:15:01,372
on something that's becoming more and more and more expensive over time forever.

1468
02:15:01,372 --> 02:15:05,372
It's just going to – endless – the cost will just go up and up and up and up

1469
02:15:05,372 --> 02:15:07,372
with no limit.

1470
02:15:07,372 --> 02:15:12,372
And it's like in Futurama, thus they drop a giant ice cube into the ocean,

1471
02:15:12,372 --> 02:15:14,372
thus solving the problem once and for all.

1472
02:15:14,372 --> 02:15:16,372
But then you need a bigger ice cube every year.

1473
02:15:16,372 --> 02:15:24,372
So that's not the right way to think about any of these things.

1474
02:15:24,372 --> 02:15:32,372
And also it's inappropriate because when you say free riding is the official policy

1475
02:15:32,372 --> 02:15:37,372
or you just don't push back on it at all, I just don't think that –

1476
02:15:37,372 --> 02:15:40,372
I don't think you want to go down that road.

1477
02:15:40,372 --> 02:15:43,372
It's going to go – it's going to lead you to a very bad place.

1478
02:15:43,372 --> 02:15:48,372
But anyway, I wrote an article about this, so I'll put it in the replies,

1479
02:15:48,372 --> 02:15:52,372
and then I'll have to see everyone next week.

1480
02:15:52,372 --> 02:15:55,372
Thanks for a great space, everyone, though.

1481
02:15:55,372 --> 02:15:56,372
I'll see you guys.

1482
02:15:56,372 --> 02:15:58,372
See you guys later.

1483
02:16:02,372 --> 02:16:05,372
♪♪♪