1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,960 Okay, here it goes. Okay, it's on. Okay, welcome. 2 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:10,760 So, you know, I usually do 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:13,280 videos on crazy stuff, 4 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:17,040 so now I'm going to talk to a sane person to get 5 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:19,800 information from him. 6 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:21,800 And this is going to be about 7 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:24,480 Paul Sztorc's 8 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:29,280 invention, Drivechains, and I pronounced that correctly, right? Yes. 9 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:31,600 Okay. 10 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:36,080 So, I'm still learning about Truthcoin. I'm still, I'm not caught up. 11 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:42,200 So, I basically know nothing about Drivechains. So, why don't you just start telling me 12 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:47,400 what is the point? Like, what are they for? Yeah, okay, that's great. So, 13 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:52,760 Blockstream had this, so I originally had this prediction markets project, which I'm still working on, but 14 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:56,480 progress on that outstripped. 15 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,120 That project was supposed to be a Bitcoin sidechain, but progress on 16 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:08,480 sidechains was a lot slower than progress on the prediction markets project. So, my project, I know, you know, 17 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,040 it's software's never finished, but I got my project to kind of a pretty good 18 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,760 state, like kind of a Bitcoin alpha 0.1 19 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:20,720 state, and then I looked around and then there was no sidechain technology. 20 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:26,080 So, I had to like go back and go down the stack, so to speak, and I was waiting for 21 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,640 other people to do the sidechain technology, but they really didn't. And so, I looked at 22 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:38,760 Blockstream white paper, and I'm pretty sure that almost no one has read that paper because it's very, a lot of people have glanced at 23 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:40,760 it, I think, but it's a very 24 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:46,480 dense paper. There's a lot in it, and it's hard to read. And then, so I kind of read it, and I thought about it, 25 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,840 and I thought about what it was really trying to do, and 26 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:57,040 I thought you could do something very similar that was a little simpler, because it's in the sort of game theoretic sense, 27 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,600 they're assuming, there's this idea of the SPV proof, which basically, 28 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:08,000 to gloss over a lot of things, just says that in the long run, you can trust the miners to be mining 29 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,480 the chain that's in their self-interest. So, that's glossing over a lot of stuff, 30 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,760 but I thought if you're gonna assume 51% of the miners are 31 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:22,920 on your side, then you can do a much simpler thing than what they were doing, 32 00:02:22,920 --> 00:02:27,040 and so I turned my attention to that. And so, what Drivechain is supposed to be is 33 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,240 a kind of very simple incarnation of 34 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,440 sidechain. So, it's supposed to let you have all the freedom of 35 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:37,520 altcoins, 36 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:42,760 but you're still using the same 21 million bitcoins, and so that's sort of the goal. 37 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:49,840 There's other things, but that's basically the point, that's how the project came to be, and I published it in November 2015, 38 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,160 and you know, you get an ongoing review, 39 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:54,880 so 40 00:02:54,920 --> 00:02:59,520 it's been iterating and responding to feedback, and then of course, in the process of building it, 41 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,520 you encounter all kinds of new questions that you have to solve. 42 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:09,440 So, I eventually presented it at ScaleMilan, or part of my strategy, I presented a strategy at ScaleMilan, which is that 43 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:14,720 we should have one chain be very decentralized, and have a very small block size, and be very 44 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:21,120 locked down, and very secure, and kind of you could run it over Tor, and all kinds of 45 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:26,440 very, very, very secure. It's kind of like a Mott & Bailey defense, you know, like 46 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,680 you've got this one thing that's like the castle, and you hide in there, 47 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:35,120 but then you've got this other thing that's, you've got these other chains, and some of them would be maybe, 48 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:40,720 you know, like a meadow, or like a really nice farmland, and you hang out there, because it's nicer, 49 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,760 but then if something bad happens, everyone just retreats to the castle, 50 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:50,480 and so the bad stuff goes away, and then when they leave, you go back out to where you wanted to be the whole time, 51 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,040 and so that's what I presented at ScaleMilan, and then I 52 00:03:55,600 --> 00:04:00,800 wanted to, I got a little bit more feedback about that, so I invented this other thing called Blind Merged Mining, 53 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:07,360 which is a much, dry chain that relies on this weird kind of shaky assumption, but Blind Merged Mining is, I think, a pretty cool 54 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:10,240 piece of technology that just 55 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:17,760 doesn't really rely on weird assumptions, just very, very, very safe ones, and that allows, so like Namecoin, as you probably know, 56 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,280 it's merge mined with Bitcoin, such that it can absorb 57 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:23,680 hash rate from 58 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:25,680 Bitcoin without 59 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:34,000 it doesn't need its own miners, so it can just use Bitcoin, piggyback on Bitcoin's miners, and in fact, a very funny thing happened over the last week, which is that 60 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:36,720 Namecoin was absorbing hash rate from 61 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:43,760 Bitcoin Core, as well as Bitcoin Cash, and it ended up having more hash rate than either of them alone, 62 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,120 so that was a very funny thing that happened with Namecoin, but 63 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:49,760 Oh, wow, that is, that is great. 64 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:51,760 That is very funny. 65 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:57,520 It's one of the funniest things to have ever happened, I think, in Bitcoin, and so I hope other people got a laugh out of it. 66 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:02,720 Certainly, it's also funny because the hash rate is skyrocketing constantly, 67 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:05,520 so each, all the modern blocks 68 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,320 have such a tremendous amount of 69 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:14,160 proof of work that, if that, that doesn't need to hold up for a very long time, I haven't exactly done the math, but 70 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,760 Namecoin could have not only the most hash rate, but it could have the most 71 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,920 cumulative difficulty, because it only takes a few modern blocks that are 20 or 30 percent 72 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,240 more difficult to just kind of totally eclipse everything that was done in 73 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,200 2011, 2012, etc. So, 74 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:37,440 it could become the heaviest valid chain, which is very funny, but regular merge mining has two problems. One is that the miners have to run 75 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,920 software, they have to run the Namecoin software to assemble a valid block, 76 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:48,320 they build a Namecoin block that kind of, I'm glossing over the details, but they build a Namecoin block that kind of looks like 77 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,560 it's inside of a Bitcoin block, and then when they mine the Bitcoin block, they can mine both. 78 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:58,080 But in order to do that, they have to run the Namecoin software, and the Namecoin software is sometimes buggy, and it crashes, and then 79 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,080 if the miners lose uptime, 80 00:06:01,280 --> 00:06:02,480 that's, 81 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:04,480 you know, that's a lot of work, but 82 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:09,440 it's a lot of fun, and it's a lot of fun, and it's a lot of fun, and it's a lot of fun, and it's a lot of 83 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:11,760 fun, that's 84 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:17,200 hits their bottom line directly, which used to happen a lot, because Namecoin was just more buggy than Bitcoin. 85 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:23,200 And also, it's funny, I've heard that from multiple reliable sources, that if the mining equipment 86 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:25,760 shuts down, there's so much power flowing 87 00:06:26,220 --> 00:06:32,560 everywhere, that a lot of the hardware will just start to explode, if it's off, and it's not mining Bitcoins. 88 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:38,320 So, the energy is just, the energy gradient is just, will just build up, so they don't want this stuff to crash. 89 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,840 So, that's why, even though mining Namecoin is free, a lot of people would, 90 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:44,880 only, you only got like 60% 91 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:51,360 of the hash rate to merge mine Namecoin, because even though it's free revenue, it wasn't really free, because there's this buggy software. 92 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:57,280 Okay, so let's talk about what you just said, in terms of how 93 00:06:57,840 --> 00:07:00,240 Drivechains are going to make it easier. 94 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,480 Yeah, so Blind Merged Mining, you don't, you can merge mine the 95 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:07,360 sidechain, without actually running 96 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:15,040 the software. So, what happens is, other people, the nodes over there, run the software, and I have an assumption that some of those people 97 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,040 who are running those nodes, also own regular Bitcoin, 98 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,640 which is a very safe assumption, because this model here is very asymmetric. 99 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:28,640 So, it's very much like a hierarchy, with Bitcoin core as the root, or whatever is the, you know, 100 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:33,360 there's a main chain, and that one is kind of the base layer, and then there's sidechains off of that. 101 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,000 But there's kind of a, there's an asymmetry. 102 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:41,760 So, there's like a hierarchy, where the one is sort of more important, 103 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,120 the Bitcoin core in this example. So, 104 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,560 what is, so what I assume, is that someone who's running Namecoin 105 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,360 node, also owns some 106 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:58,800 Bitcoin on Bitcoin core, and what I basically do, is I have them pay, they do a special transaction, where they say, 107 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,280 I'll pay the miner, 108 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,640 this amount, if they merge mine this Namecoin block. 109 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,960 And so, they, the person assembles the Namecoin block, and pays the Namecoin's 110 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,600 sidechain Bitcoin, they pay themselves those transaction fees, 111 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:16,640 and then they're all bidding competitively. 112 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,320 Any of the nodes who are interested in doing this, 113 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:26,240 will bid competitively, as long as there's more than two, which obviously there would be, because it's a blockchain 114 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,480 network. So, if there's only one, that's kind of pointless, but 115 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,680 you would, if, as long as there's a few, they would have this competitive bidding, and then 116 00:08:36,560 --> 00:08:40,720 the, so the main chain Bitcoin miners would still get the transaction fees, 117 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,000 they, but they don't have to do like any of the work. So, it's, it was a, 118 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:51,940 because some people complain that, like you have like a, some kind of like YouTube sidechain, like an ESPN, 119 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:58,800 4k, super broadcasting sidechain, that's like really, really difficult, has high bandwidth requirements, so like 120 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:04,960 privacy implications, and they didn't want it to be a case where only large miners 121 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,000 could merge mine those. 122 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:15,760 So, the benefit of this is that the miners don't have to touch any of the software at all. They can just be passively receiving money. 123 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:22,960 So, the sidechain nodes can pay themselves epsilon, you see, like if there's 17 Bitcoin worth of transaction fees, 124 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:27,280 they can pay themselves 17, and then they can try to bid like 6.8, 6.9, 125 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,400 to try and get, they can try and get a little bit, but of course, the bulk of it will just go to the miners 126 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,400 anyway, and they don't have to worry about, 127 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,400 and so that part I think is kind of cool. 128 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:41,200 But yeah, the point of Drivechain is that you send, you're playing with Bitcoin, it's not, it's no longer Namecoin, 129 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:43,520 it's actual Bitcoin, 130 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:47,360 over on the other chain, you do whatever you want with it over there, and then you bring it back. 131 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,720 But yeah, the second benefit of Blind Merged Mining is that the miners get paid, 132 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,400 they don't get paid on the sidechain, they get paid immediately with the main chain. 133 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,640 Bitcoin that they know and love, so it's a little bit, it's a lot better, I think. 134 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:03,120 Oh, yeah, that is better. 135 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,200 I remember once I had this conversation with 136 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:09,280 with 137 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:10,960 Paul Snow, 138 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:18,160 and I was saying, I was telling him that like you don't, you shouldn't need to create a whole new investment product, 139 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:20,720 if you just want to 140 00:10:21,680 --> 00:10:27,920 try to, you want to program new rules, and he's like, well, how are you going to pay the miners? And I was like, well, why, 141 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,280 why would they want to be paid in a 142 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:33,680 a 143 00:10:33,680 --> 00:10:38,880 worse investment product anyway? They should be paid in Bitcoin, but 144 00:10:39,680 --> 00:10:41,760 yeah, so now we can do that. 145 00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:48,800 Right, so that's the goal of that part. At least that's what we will be able to do if you make this thing. 146 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,920 Yeah, well, yeah, so it's, we have a lot of, 147 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:57,040 there's a, you can go to drivechain.info, and we have a GitHub, and we've done a lot, but there will, 148 00:10:57,600 --> 00:10:59,600 and there just will need to be a lot of 149 00:11:00,560 --> 00:11:02,560 kind of review by other people, because 150 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,440 there's only so much that 151 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:09,440 me and this other guy, Patrick, we have been working on it, but there is only, you know, 152 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:11,760 you can only bring it to a certain point yourself, 153 00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:18,640 and then you'll always be like blind to, you have the unknown unknowns, right? So, yeah, other people will have to 154 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:25,680 put in a little effort, I think, at this, at this point, but it's mostly finished, and in fact, I'm considering asking 155 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,920 Luke Dashjr. for the, to assign the BIP numbers, because it's basically, 156 00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:32,560 we brought it as far as 157 00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:33,600 I think 158 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,680 we could efficiently bring it, so that, 159 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:43,360 so we've got, we made it pretty far on both Drivechain and blind bridge mining, so I think that it's going to need, it's basically, 160 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:49,600 I don't want to say finished, because nothing is ever finished in the world of software, but it's like, it's pretty good. 161 00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:51,600 There are just a bunch of issues, 162 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:53,600 if people want to go and help with the issues, 163 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:59,360 but this, the design is sort of stable, and the documentation is stable, so that's kind of neat. 164 00:11:59,920 --> 00:12:01,920 What, what is the, the GitHub again? 165 00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:07,680 Oh, I don't even, I think it's Drivechain-project, but if you go to drivechain.info, there's a little GitHub 166 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:12,960 icon in the sidebar, if you have a desktop, or if you have mobile, you have to scroll all the way to the bottom, 167 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:17,520 and you get the sidebar, and you just click it. I can actually, I know what it is right over here. 168 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:23,700 Yeah, it is called, yeah, it's github.com slash Drivechain-project. 169 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:26,400 You should be able to find it. 170 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,400 Okay, so, 171 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,480 so what is, so you, you said that there is an assumption. 172 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:38,320 Yes, there's a weird assumption. Yes. Okay, so here's the thing, is if, the way this works is, 173 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,120 there's only one way that it can work, because 174 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,080 if you, the goal is to get 175 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:46,800 a bunch of rules validated, 176 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:48,800 but without actually 177 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:50,720 validating them, because 178 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:52,480 you want 179 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:57,440 to create a new set of software rules, you know, have like a new blockchain, so to speak, 180 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:04,320 and, but you don't want to have Bitcoin Core do the work, so that's the, that's kind of this, this 181 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,920 paradox that you're stuck with, if you want to do a sidechains-like thing, right? 182 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,240 You want to let people go into a different zone, 183 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,800 where they 184 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:15,280 have new rules, 185 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,320 so maybe it's a larger block size, it could be, it could be anything, 186 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:24,880 but then when the payments come back, if there's some kind of dispute over, oh, that's not who owns that coin, 187 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:30,400 does, does A own it, or does B own it, then you have to have some way of resolving the dispute, so, 188 00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:37,280 so that's the paradox, is that you don't, you don't, you can't actually check who, who owns it, A or B, 189 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,240 but you need to check something, 190 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,920 and so it's kind of an unalterable, you know, 191 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:49,280 this is kind of just a paradox, but it's a trade-off like anything else, so what I do is, I say, 192 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:54,960 I make it so that the sidechain has to report on exactly what it's doing, 193 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,080 at all times, and then when it wants 194 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:04,960 to transfer money out of the sidechain back to the mainchain, it has to do this very, very, very slowly, 195 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:11,040 and the reason that this is not inconvenient is because, meanwhile, people can do these atomic swaps back and forth, 196 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,920 so I don't think anyone would actually use this, it would be like an industrial 197 00:14:14,560 --> 00:14:17,760 process, and it's possible that only the miners would actually do this, but 198 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:23,680 the, the point is this, when you want to send, so when you want to send money to the sidechain, from the mainchain to the 199 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,840 sidechain, it's very simple, because I assume that the sidechain is watching the mainchain, 200 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:32,720 and I obviously assume that the mainchain is working correctly, so that part is easy, 201 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:37,280 so going like, so there's only like one leg of the problem that is really hard, which is 202 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:39,840 having the money come back, 203 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,600 you know, you send the money into Factum sidechain, and then you do something with it, and then 204 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:49,680 you want to send the money back. Now, Bitcoin Core can't check the rules of the sidechain, because this breaks the, 205 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:55,280 this breaks the goal, the goal is to not, to avoid doing all that, 206 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,760 and just let other people do whatever they want, and not have it affect Bitcoin Core, 207 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:04,720 but at the same time, you want some guarantee, somehow, that this money is going to end up in the right place, 208 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,280 and so what I do is, I say all the 209 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:09,840 transactions coming back from a sidechain, 210 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,400 they're all batched up, 211 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,080 into one 212 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:20,080 transaction, and then that transaction is, you know, has an ID, it's hashed, and it's sort of frozen in place, 213 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:26,400 and then everyone gets to examine it for a very long period of time, and I suggest, this is a configurable parameter, 214 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:31,680 but I suggest like one month of it just sitting there, and then it's slowly act, 215 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:37,600 acknowledged or non-acknowledged, it's sort of like miners, like upvote it or downvote it, once per block, 216 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,240 and if it achieves enough upvotes 217 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,240 over another length of time, which I think should be like two months, 218 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:51,280 then the payment goes through in Bitcoin Core, and the sidechain's watching, so the sidechain knows 219 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,280 when Bitcoin Core is sending money to it, so then it can just credit people, 220 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:03,120 and it knows when the side domain withdrawal transfers, it knows when those have succeeded, 221 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,360 so then it knows to just destroy that money, to stop blocking it, and just destroy it, 222 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,680 it's because it got successfully transferred out, 223 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,160 so the, basically, to put a bottom line on it, the threat is that 224 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,040 miners can, 225 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:19,040 if you have these 226 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:25,120 things, let's say you have a Bitcoin Core, and then you have like a large block sidechain, 227 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,160 which is like something that people are interested in these days, 228 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:32,640 so you have this sidechain that has, it doesn't matter, a 20 megabyte block size or something, 229 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,200 and there's a total of 230 00:16:35,740 --> 00:16:39,200 2,000 bitcoins over there, or whatever, whatever the case may be, 231 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:44,320 this is like, we have about, I don't, I looked it up, but I can't remember, we have about 232 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:46,960 four and a half million, or five million, 233 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,320 or four, I think four and a half million bitcoins that have not been mined, 234 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:55,440 and so there's 16 million on Bitcoin Core, so there would be some on other, these other chains, 235 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,000 and the threat is that 236 00:16:58,000 --> 00:16:59,680 miners would 237 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:06,000 create a transaction that pays all of the sidechain's money to themselves, and then they would broadcast it, 238 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,680 and then we would wait a month, and then they would all acknowledge it to themselves, 239 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,920 and then the withdrawal would go through, and they would get on the main chain, they would open the sidechain 240 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,640 account, and give themselves all of the money, so that's the threat, 241 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,480 and the only way I found to kind of defend against it 242 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:25,920 is to make sure that it's very 243 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:30,240 obvious in advance, and that it's very slow, and that it's very easy to check, 244 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:35,280 so it'd be very easy to check the attack, because the sidechain broadcasts what it's supposed to be, 245 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,440 what's supposed to be being withdrawn, as just a little hash, 246 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:41,120 and then 247 00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:47,120 on mainchain Bitcoin, you can see what's being withdrawn, and that's a little hash, and you can just see if they match or not, 248 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:49,920 and of course, they're uniform numbers, and they're only 249 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,680 32 bytes long, or whatever, so they're very easy for a human being to see immediately that 250 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,920 the rules are not being followed, the kind of meta rules, 251 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:07,440 and it's very easy for miners to comply with the rules, because they themselves can check, because it's just a little hash, 252 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,360 and it's also very easy for miners to kind of pull this alarm and just say, 253 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:13,920 we're going to unacknowledge everything, 254 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:19,600 and they can downvote everything until they figure out what's going on, and just kind of slow the process down, 255 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,240 and say like, we don't know what's going on, but we'll figure it out later, 256 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:24,880 because something is up, 257 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,160 and so that is kind of all the stuff that I threw in the way, 258 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,080 but yeah, this is the major kind of empirical question. 259 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,560 I think if this doesn't work, though, I think nothing will work, because 260 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,800 I don't really see how it can get much better than this, like I guess you could 261 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,560 ramp the parameters up a lot, and you could say it's got to wait for two months, 262 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,380 and then it takes an entire year to be withdrawn, 263 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:53,600 and you can kind of hope that that doesn't matter, because again, people can already do these atomic swaps among the 264 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:58,720 two different chains, and you just, what you want is for people to do them at an exchange rate 265 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,920 that's very close to one, so that it's effectively the same 266 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:07,040 token, and then you want to do this basic accounting, which is very easy to do, 267 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:09,680 to make sure there's never any more than 21 268 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,320 bitcoins that 269 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:14,800 aren't permanently locked somewhere. 270 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:23,360 So a lot of that's easy, but yeah, I think if this doesn't work, then nothing will work, which would be kind of a shame, 271 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,000 but basically the security model is that 272 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:32,240 what would be implied if miners steal from the sidechain is that they have to do this 273 00:19:32,940 --> 00:19:36,960 intentionally and kind of obviously, so what it would imply is that 274 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:39,120 the 275 00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:44,000 price of bitcoin should go down, I think, so if the sidechain is popular, and if people like it, 276 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:49,840 then, and you know, they're losing all the, the sidechain is going to provide its own transaction fees, first of all, 277 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,120 but second of all, it's going to provide more utility for bitcoin, so 278 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:55,040 it 279 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,080 should be increasing the value of bitcoin, and so destroying it 280 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:04,320 should decrease the value of bitcoin, and it should also kind of put an end to the entire sidechain experiment, because they can say, well, 281 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:06,240 they're going to attack this one sidechain, 282 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:10,400 so they're probably going to attack them all, which means we can't have any now, and we can never have any in the future, 283 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:18,560 so that's kind of the, the, the consequence, or the, the threat, or the kind of the equilibrium, 284 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,600 the equilibrating force, is that 285 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,720 the idea is that if they were, if miners were to attack 286 00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:26,640 a sidechain, 287 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:28,640 it would take a long time, 288 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,800 there's a lot of ways for it not working, and if it, even if it does work, 289 00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:37,280 it should just harm the miners' bottom line, because investors should just 290 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:42,400 say, well, I guess we're stuck with only one chain, and only one development team 291 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:47,120 forever, instead of having, you know, kind of like freedom and permissionless innovation, 292 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:48,880 so 293 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,880 that is kind of the model. The other thing is, of course, I mean, I don't want to rely on this, but the other thing is 294 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:54,880 people might, 295 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:56,480 like, if they're, 296 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,400 once you're, maybe you're, this is a three-month thing, as I've been saying, 297 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:05,600 so if you're, like, two months into those three months, and it looks like the miners really are going to steal, 298 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,160 people could just hard code, 299 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,320 that's part of the reasons we're making it so slow, is that people might just say, 300 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:17,360 well, we're going to do the user-activated soft fork type thing, and we're just going to say, 301 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:23,440 we are not going to let this transaction in the block, and, you know, and then, you know, there's other things, too, like 302 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,400 if the miners really misbehave, then 303 00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:32,960 people, you know, there's always the threat of the proof-of-work change and other things, so I, my personal opinion is that the miners are more 304 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:38,800 docile, and other people don't have that opinion, but I think they're just normal people trying to make a 305 00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:40,320 living, 306 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,280 and I think that sidechains will increase the value of 307 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:45,920 Bitcoin, and then eventually it'll reach a point where 308 00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:52,400 mining can only stay profitable if they never attack any sidechain, with the exception of, like, weird side, 309 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,840 it is, I think it is possible to build, like, weird sidechains that try to harass 310 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,600 other chains, like a chain that only pays you if you, like, 311 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:05,520 fork a chain or something like that, and so I want miners to attack those and just, and clean them out, 312 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,820 in fact, I have a giant presentation on this that I called sidechain privatization, 313 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:14,260 which is sort of like, I want miners to kind of, like, own and curate the portfolio 314 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,440 of sidechains, just so that no one ever bothers. See, what I don't like, I really don't like, 315 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,840 kind of, the Ethereum idea that you can just run whatever you want, and they can't stop you, 316 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:28,640 because I think that you will end up with some guy coding in secret some weird thing, 317 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:33,520 and he'll code it, and then he'll put it out, and then they won't, it'll be like cat and mouse, 318 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:38,320 you won't be able to stop it, or something like that, so I want this thing that I call categorical control, 319 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,480 and I want the miners to be able to say, this category of smart contract 320 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,680 we don't like, and we're getting rid of it, we're filtering it out. 321 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:47,280 Yeah. 322 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,280 Well, yeah, I'm kind of, 323 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:56,720 I kind of think it's silly how paranoid people can be about the miners, too, because, you know, the miners are sort of, 324 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:01,520 they are subject to forces that are beyond their control, which is 325 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,480 the value of Bitcoin, 326 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,480 and if they try to 327 00:23:07,360 --> 00:23:09,120 act maliciously, 328 00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:11,760 they harm the value of Bitcoin, 329 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,800 and, you know, that harms the value of their equipment, 330 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,800 so I think that there's some pretty strong constraints that 331 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:26,880 will tend to keep them honest, so everything you said sounds reasonable to me. 332 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:32,080 Right, and so that's really all the bad news, the good news is that you can do now, the good news is pretty good, 333 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:33,840 I think, so I think, 334 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:35,840 even if you're a very pessimistic person, 335 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,760 the good news is that you can now just create whatever weird 336 00:23:40,300 --> 00:23:46,240 experiment you want, so you can do, you can do like an Ethereum sidechain, although I don't think it will, it's a good idea, but 337 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,280 you can do that, you can do a weird proof of stake, 338 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,440 if you're not, if you don't want to do the Blind Merged Mining part, the first part, 339 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:59,440 Drivechain, the hashrate escrows, you can do like whatever weird stuff you want, proof of elapsed time, 340 00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:03,120 you can do all this weird hyperledger stuff, you can do like an R3 thing, 341 00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:07,040 you can do like whatever weird stuff you want, you can put Bitcoin into this account that is only 342 00:24:07,820 --> 00:24:13,940 withdrawable if, after a very, very slow time, and so you have basically totally arbitrary 343 00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:20,240 control over what kind of weird chain you want, you can make all the mistakes that you want with all the 344 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:26,880 terrible developer talent that you want, right, and so like what's better than that, this is, so it totally turns the 345 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:34,400 the tables, I think, on the entire way that we do things in Bitcoin right now, which is that, right now we have a kind of, 346 00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:41,520 we have like a kind of, I'm not really sure what to call it, it's like a USSR Ministry of Science or something, 347 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:48,240 we have it all like going through, like a hegemony, yeah, we have a, yeah, we have exactly, we have like a hegemony, and 348 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:56,720 yeah, I love mistakes, this is kind of like a common theme in arguments that I have with people, is that 349 00:24:57,588 --> 00:25:04,548 you know, they, well, there's just a lot of concern trolling that goes around in Bitcoin, and I always say, so, just, you know, just do it and see what happens. 350 00:25:04,588 --> 00:25:14,588 Yeah, there's, I think, I've noticed, haven't you noticed, I'm sure you have, there's like a very much like an anti-Hayek kind of streak running through the entire philosophy of Bitcoin right now, which is very funny, because Hayek was all about just like, just try whatever, something will fix it somehow, the anti-fragility, you know, and so I think, you know, there's a lot of concern trolling that goes around in Bitcoin, and I always say, so, just, you know, just do it and see what happens. 351 00:25:14,588 --> 00:25:15,588 Yeah. 352 00:25:44,588 --> 00:25:56,128 So, but I have another point about the miners, which is that I think I've noticed a kind 353 00:25:56,128 --> 00:26:04,668 of, I've noticed a kind of separation in philosophies that, and some of them cover different aspects 354 00:26:04,668 --> 00:26:05,668 of Bitcoin. 355 00:26:05,668 --> 00:26:07,948 I think Bitcoin is a really big complicated thing. 356 00:26:07,948 --> 00:26:12,968 And I think there is like a kind of difference between like a cryptographer point of view 357 00:26:12,968 --> 00:26:18,808 and then there's like a economics game theorists point of view. 358 00:26:18,808 --> 00:26:24,268 And there's kind of, it's basically about how much they value independence. 359 00:26:24,268 --> 00:26:30,528 And the cryptographers, I think they want total independence in a strict like science 360 00:26:30,528 --> 00:26:31,668 statistical sense. 361 00:26:31,668 --> 00:26:38,108 Like they want to build a safe that cannot be opened unless you have the password. 362 00:26:38,108 --> 00:26:42,028 Even if you have a computer the size of the sun or whatever other weird stuff, right? 363 00:26:42,028 --> 00:26:45,648 They want to say that this is totally ironclad, like there's an absolutely nothing anyone 364 00:26:45,648 --> 00:26:46,648 can do. 365 00:26:46,648 --> 00:26:50,788 It's completely unbreakable encryption, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 366 00:26:50,788 --> 00:26:55,248 But the, the other extreme is that you kind of, it's sort of more of the economics thing 367 00:26:55,248 --> 00:27:00,208 where it's like, well, I'm going to go down the street and I'm going to buy some lunch. 368 00:27:00,208 --> 00:27:04,248 And I don't know what they're putting in that lunch, but I've eaten there for years and 369 00:27:04,248 --> 00:27:06,088 it tastes okay to me. 370 00:27:06,088 --> 00:27:09,388 And there's some process somewhere, there's some process that if they do something bad 371 00:27:09,388 --> 00:27:15,468 at the lunch, someone else will like fix it or something that someone will get bad 372 00:27:15,468 --> 00:27:21,208 press or the someone will call someone and complain or something will be in the media 373 00:27:21,208 --> 00:27:24,248 or something like that and they'll just go out of business eventually and someone else 374 00:27:24,248 --> 00:27:27,028 will take that spot because they won't be able to afford rent. 375 00:27:27,028 --> 00:27:30,248 And so game theory is all about interdependence. 376 00:27:30,248 --> 00:27:34,688 It's all about like everyone's pointing a gun, it's like a Mexican standoff. 377 00:27:34,688 --> 00:27:37,088 A Mexican standoff is like game theorists approved. 378 00:27:37,588 --> 00:27:43,028 It's like Apex because it's like perfectly balanced, you know, and yeah, I love it. 379 00:27:43,028 --> 00:27:47,468 And then the, but the cryptographers are like, oh, what if, what if they go crazy and shoot 380 00:27:47,468 --> 00:27:48,468 us? 381 00:27:48,468 --> 00:27:49,908 That's kind of like the miners versus developers, I think. 382 00:27:49,908 --> 00:27:52,588 There's the Mexican standoff and I'm fine with it. 383 00:27:52,588 --> 00:27:53,588 I love it. 384 00:27:53,588 --> 00:27:54,588 I think it's fine. 385 00:27:54,588 --> 00:27:55,588 It's- 386 00:27:55,588 --> 00:27:57,748 Oh, well, why don't we have a Mexican standoff sometime? 387 00:27:57,748 --> 00:28:03,628 Well, when we get, when we get together in, in the, in February, we can, we can have a 388 00:28:03,628 --> 00:28:04,868 Mexican standoff. 389 00:28:04,868 --> 00:28:05,868 I think- 390 00:28:05,868 --> 00:28:11,008 We can have one with ourselves or with, or with other, we, you and I, with other people. 391 00:28:11,008 --> 00:28:14,608 I'm going to, I'm going to tell, I'm going to tell Bruce Fenton about that idea because 392 00:28:14,608 --> 00:28:16,528 I think he'll, he'll like it. 393 00:28:16,528 --> 00:28:20,128 That would, that would actually would be funny if you organize that as like a, an event. 394 00:28:20,128 --> 00:28:22,368 You're like, okay, everyone over here. 395 00:28:22,368 --> 00:28:24,248 I think that he would like that idea. 396 00:28:24,248 --> 00:28:27,928 Sidewalkers, supporters of sidechains over there, some lightning network supporters over 397 00:28:27,928 --> 00:28:28,928 there. 398 00:28:28,928 --> 00:28:31,888 And then, then we all have super suckers or something, you know, and it's just like, 399 00:28:31,888 --> 00:28:32,888 I don't know. 400 00:28:32,888 --> 00:28:33,888 I don't know where that could go. 401 00:28:33,908 --> 00:28:35,748 It could go a lot of ways though. 402 00:28:35,748 --> 00:28:36,748 That's a very funny. 403 00:28:36,748 --> 00:28:37,748 Yeah. 404 00:28:37,748 --> 00:28:43,868 No, I mean, I, I always think that, yeah, to me, like, people will, people will act 405 00:28:43,868 --> 00:28:47,628 to preserve the value of their investment, right? 406 00:28:47,628 --> 00:28:52,308 And it's a little incongruent to start Bitcoin mining and then become a crazy person. 407 00:28:52,308 --> 00:28:53,308 Yeah. 408 00:28:53,308 --> 00:28:54,308 Yeah. 409 00:28:54,308 --> 00:28:57,428 Well, I mean, that's kind of how I feel like, like what I'm doing now. 410 00:28:57,428 --> 00:29:03,108 Like if, if, if I thought everything was going fine, I would not have started my YouTube 411 00:29:03,108 --> 00:29:04,108 series. 412 00:29:04,108 --> 00:29:07,808 I would have just, you know, done something unrelated to Bitcoin. 413 00:29:07,808 --> 00:29:12,528 That's kind of what I was trying to say is that, and I think that I sent you and I said, 414 00:29:12,528 --> 00:29:13,528 I had a lot of fun with it. 415 00:29:13,528 --> 00:29:17,528 The, I have the power idea that there's this normal, like game theory grid, but I just 416 00:29:17,528 --> 00:29:20,328 drew like a tangled line. 417 00:29:20,328 --> 00:29:23,488 And I was like, yeah, the people have all these incentives to like, kind of interact 418 00:29:23,488 --> 00:29:26,928 in horrible ways. 419 00:29:26,928 --> 00:29:29,728 Because they think they can persuade people to do this. 420 00:29:29,728 --> 00:29:30,728 So a lot of this stuff is crazy. 421 00:29:30,728 --> 00:29:35,108 It's like all this Twitter stuff and all this kind of like, yeah, people get harassed 422 00:29:35,108 --> 00:29:38,828 and you know, people get all kinds of threats and things. 423 00:29:38,828 --> 00:29:43,228 And then people are, can feel compelled to make, start a YouTube series. 424 00:29:43,228 --> 00:29:50,228 And all this stuff is kind of this big result of, of not having good interactions. 425 00:29:50,228 --> 00:29:54,788 And it would be nicer if we just had a world where if you wanted to do something else, 426 00:29:54,788 --> 00:29:55,788 you just did it. 427 00:29:55,788 --> 00:29:58,268 And Bitcoin core is like the Linux kernel. 428 00:29:58,968 --> 00:30:00,568 I would ideally, I don't think it should change. 429 00:30:00,568 --> 00:30:05,248 I don't think that, I think Bitcoin core should really stop changing very much. 430 00:30:05,248 --> 00:30:11,528 I think it's, it's too easy to change with a hard fork or soft fork or anything. 431 00:30:11,528 --> 00:30:15,968 And I think we should establish a precedent where Bitcoin core doesn't change as much 432 00:30:15,968 --> 00:30:18,288 and instead other weird things change. 433 00:30:18,288 --> 00:30:22,608 All the layer two sidechains, lightning, all this other stuff should change a lot. 434 00:30:22,608 --> 00:30:24,808 Businesses that use Bitcoin. 435 00:30:24,828 --> 00:30:32,148 But I think we are, I think we have already demonstrated that so much about Bitcoin can 436 00:30:32,148 --> 00:30:39,748 be changed with just a few people, just the developer vote or only the mining vote or 437 00:30:39,748 --> 00:30:40,748 only something. 438 00:30:40,748 --> 00:30:42,628 So I'm not happy about that. 439 00:30:42,628 --> 00:30:45,148 And I don't like all this interaction. 440 00:30:45,148 --> 00:30:46,908 It's not organized. 441 00:30:46,908 --> 00:30:47,908 So I think it would be better. 442 00:30:47,908 --> 00:30:50,108 This is part of the big upside. 443 00:30:50,108 --> 00:30:54,228 So this is why I'm very passionate about the experiment, the sidechain experiment. 444 00:30:54,648 --> 00:30:57,448 I think we should run it and we should see what happens. 445 00:30:57,448 --> 00:31:04,248 And I think it's interesting, this dichotomy I mentioned before about a cryptographer versus 446 00:31:04,248 --> 00:31:10,848 game theory is that a lot of people who are great cryptographers didn't believe in Bitcoin 447 00:31:10,848 --> 00:31:13,288 and they didn't think it would work. 448 00:31:13,288 --> 00:31:19,648 And they would say things like, well, the miners will just reorganize the chain and 449 00:31:19,648 --> 00:31:20,648 take everyone's money. 450 00:31:21,068 --> 00:31:25,268 And Greg Maxwell has that proof, he had like a mathematical proof that it wouldn't work. 451 00:31:25,268 --> 00:31:27,868 I'm going to have to look that up now. 452 00:31:27,868 --> 00:31:28,868 It's very interesting. 453 00:31:28,868 --> 00:31:34,588 I think I haven't actually looked at it myself, but I think I can guess where he probably 454 00:31:34,588 --> 00:31:42,388 the where Satoshi kind of cheated on his proof is that I'm pretty sure that Satoshi is printing 455 00:31:42,388 --> 00:31:47,628 new money and giving it to people with these blocks, the 50 bitcoins per blocks, per block 456 00:31:47,628 --> 00:31:50,268 in the first four years. 457 00:31:50,888 --> 00:31:53,608 And the idea that those could have value, and this is something that I think you discussed 458 00:31:53,608 --> 00:31:58,568 with Chris also recently, the idea that those could have value and that they could be fuel 459 00:31:58,568 --> 00:32:00,928 for this machine. 460 00:32:00,928 --> 00:32:05,888 I think that's like the new game changer that he put in, that it wouldn't be possible unless 461 00:32:05,888 --> 00:32:12,248 people were willing to, they were willing to pay money for these 50 bitcoins that were 462 00:32:12,248 --> 00:32:16,308 created every 10 minutes at first. 463 00:32:16,328 --> 00:32:20,768 And so I think in a weird way, it's funny because you think something is like a mathematical 464 00:32:20,768 --> 00:32:29,488 proof, but it can be in practice, it can be overturned because governments manage the 465 00:32:29,488 --> 00:32:35,688 currency so badly, because people want, it's very weird, Bitcoin is like a big thing that 466 00:32:35,688 --> 00:32:41,088 it's got, it's plugged into every weird facet of the world. 467 00:32:41,088 --> 00:32:42,088 Yeah. 468 00:32:42,868 --> 00:32:49,068 Well, wait till you see my next video. 469 00:32:49,068 --> 00:32:50,068 Okay, great. 470 00:32:50,068 --> 00:32:52,588 I'm looking forward to it. 471 00:32:52,588 --> 00:33:02,008 So can you go, let's go into some more details about how the Drivechain is going to work. 472 00:33:02,008 --> 00:33:09,908 So do we have an address, a normal Bitcoin address, and that is the Drivechain? 473 00:33:10,228 --> 00:33:11,228 Yeah. 474 00:33:11,228 --> 00:33:16,048 So for user experience and laziness reasons, there currently is like an address that's 475 00:33:16,048 --> 00:33:20,448 a little more like, you know, normally in Bitcoin, the addresses are not like accounts, 476 00:33:20,448 --> 00:33:23,088 but in Drivechain they are. 477 00:33:23,088 --> 00:33:28,388 So it's kind of complicated to explain, but that's basically it right now. 478 00:33:28,388 --> 00:33:35,928 You can deposit Bitcoin to this, if you send it to this address, then anyone who's running 479 00:33:35,928 --> 00:33:39,768 the sidechain software will know, they'll hear about it and they'll know. 480 00:33:40,628 --> 00:33:44,828 It's either from over the network protocol, just by looking at the Bitcoin blocks, because 481 00:33:44,828 --> 00:33:50,168 this is an asymmetric design where it's more like plugins, where I assume that everyone 482 00:33:50,168 --> 00:33:54,788 is running Bitcoin core and then you can kind of like check a little box. 483 00:33:54,788 --> 00:33:59,008 Do you want to also run this or that or nothing? 484 00:33:59,008 --> 00:34:01,708 And so they kind of, they're aware of what's happening in Bitcoin core. 485 00:34:01,708 --> 00:34:06,548 And so when you deposit to this little box, you get credited automatically. 486 00:34:06,548 --> 00:34:11,088 So it's like when you send, you would send Bitcoin to the sidechain and that would be 487 00:34:11,088 --> 00:34:15,888 one of your outputs is that you're putting the Bitcoin into the sidechain, but then you'd 488 00:34:15,888 --> 00:34:18,008 have this some other thing. 489 00:34:18,008 --> 00:34:23,248 And right now we have it as your basic kind of op return thing and you push another address 490 00:34:23,248 --> 00:34:24,248 in there. 491 00:34:24,248 --> 00:34:28,808 And then the sidechain watches that transaction and says, oh, that person deposited 14 Bitcoin 492 00:34:28,808 --> 00:34:30,088 or whatever. 493 00:34:30,088 --> 00:34:31,668 And then here's the op return. 494 00:34:31,668 --> 00:34:40,048 And so we are going to credit that address over here with 14 that it was sort of, it 495 00:34:40,048 --> 00:34:43,448 was sort of print, but it's not, they're going to be destroyed when they go back. 496 00:34:43,448 --> 00:34:47,948 So it's just accounting, but yeah, it doesn't need to, since you have infinite flexibility 497 00:34:47,948 --> 00:34:51,168 with the new piece of software, that is how that works. 498 00:34:51,168 --> 00:34:55,328 And then once you're over there, you can do whatever you like, including open a payment 499 00:34:55,328 --> 00:34:57,488 channel with people. 500 00:34:57,488 --> 00:35:03,828 You can Lightning, you can use Lightning network within a chain, but also across multiple 501 00:35:03,828 --> 00:35:07,028 chains as long as they have the same hash function, which they all will. 502 00:35:07,028 --> 00:35:09,708 So that's kind of neat. 503 00:35:09,708 --> 00:35:16,028 And also it's, I think it should be possible that it should be possible to charge more, 504 00:35:16,028 --> 00:35:21,348 like someone should be able to send money over to sidechain, open a bunch of channels 505 00:35:21,348 --> 00:35:27,468 there, and then charge more for that hub per like a variable costs, charge more per transaction. 506 00:35:28,448 --> 00:35:32,528 In that hub, then maybe I'm maintaining Bitcoin core. 507 00:35:32,528 --> 00:35:38,648 And then that way they would get kind of a return for putting the risk of putting their 508 00:35:38,648 --> 00:35:40,688 money in this new thing. 509 00:35:40,688 --> 00:35:42,568 And then people could Lightning through them. 510 00:35:42,568 --> 00:35:46,128 If there's some, this is assuming that there's some weird smart contract that only the sidechain 511 00:35:46,128 --> 00:35:47,128 can do. 512 00:35:47,128 --> 00:35:50,208 That wouldn't really, I don't know if that would really work for payments because the 513 00:35:50,208 --> 00:35:54,328 point of payments is that the merchant has to get, but maybe it would because if you 514 00:35:54,328 --> 00:35:58,988 had like something like a bit pay or something that was on the sidechain then. 515 00:35:58,988 --> 00:36:00,108 So it's kind of neat. 516 00:36:00,108 --> 00:36:01,388 So there's a lot of flexibility. 517 00:36:01,388 --> 00:36:08,868 So lots of stuff to figure out for like, you know, actual economic agents to figure out 518 00:36:08,868 --> 00:36:11,068 how they are going to use it the best. 519 00:36:11,068 --> 00:36:16,388 But I think the first in practice, the first thing I would like to do is have just a sidechain 520 00:36:16,388 --> 00:36:20,868 that just has a larger block size, because I think people would really like that or that 521 00:36:20,868 --> 00:36:23,128 people would be interested in using that. 522 00:36:23,128 --> 00:36:26,288 And it also would be very, very, very easy. 523 00:36:26,288 --> 00:36:27,728 You know what I would like to see? 524 00:36:27,728 --> 00:36:33,408 I'd like to see a sidechain where you have to do proof of work to make every individual 525 00:36:33,408 --> 00:36:41,448 transaction and that determines the bandwidth, not, not some arbitrary number because I think 526 00:36:41,448 --> 00:36:45,488 that that was a design flaw that Satoshi put in into Bitcoin. 527 00:36:45,488 --> 00:36:50,248 You should actually have to do, because that's what we do in, in BitMessage. 528 00:36:50,248 --> 00:36:55,108 You have to do proof of work to send a message into the network at all. 529 00:36:55,108 --> 00:37:00,268 And the whole point of proof of work is to prevent spam. 530 00:37:00,268 --> 00:37:02,948 So but anyway. 531 00:37:02,948 --> 00:37:05,148 Yeah, I know. 532 00:37:05,148 --> 00:37:10,708 I like, well, that's funny you mentioned that because I like the idea of a, see BitMessage 533 00:37:10,708 --> 00:37:13,228 I think does, yeah, I like BitMessage. 534 00:37:13,228 --> 00:37:19,188 I would like to see, I would definitely like to see like an kind of email sidechain. 535 00:37:19,188 --> 00:37:21,568 So you're talking about, you're talking about kind of two different things, but you're saying 536 00:37:21,568 --> 00:37:25,728 like, is there a better way of doing proof of work, which is the transactions proof of 537 00:37:25,728 --> 00:37:29,328 work, which is kind of neat. 538 00:37:29,328 --> 00:37:30,328 I don't know. 539 00:37:30,328 --> 00:37:34,208 I think you, there are, I think there was some like Dan Larimer tried to do something 540 00:37:34,208 --> 00:37:36,408 like that, but he didn't do it very well or something. 541 00:37:36,408 --> 00:37:40,608 And he called the transactions as proof of work or something in 2014. 542 00:37:40,608 --> 00:37:45,928 But aside from that, I would like to see some kind of messaging sidechain or something. 543 00:37:45,928 --> 00:37:50,988 And instead of doing the proof of work, you can do the actual, you can do the real thing, 544 00:37:50,988 --> 00:37:56,108 like the post converted proof of work, which is that you can charge people Bitcoin to send 545 00:37:56,108 --> 00:37:57,108 you money. 546 00:37:57,108 --> 00:38:03,348 And I know 21 does this, but they're our company and I don't want them reading my email or 547 00:38:03,348 --> 00:38:06,028 even knowing who I talk to. 548 00:38:06,028 --> 00:38:11,228 So and plus, you know, their original idea was so bad, I don't know if I trust them doing 549 00:38:11,228 --> 00:38:12,228 anything now. 550 00:38:12,228 --> 00:38:20,968 It's just an absurd idea of putting a miner in like everything and like a light bulb. 551 00:38:20,968 --> 00:38:21,968 Like was that real? 552 00:38:21,968 --> 00:38:28,168 And then they changed it to like the 21, the Bitcoin computer. 553 00:38:28,168 --> 00:38:31,008 And then I was like, yeah, a lot of people are having a lot of trouble. 554 00:38:31,008 --> 00:38:33,608 They use like these hardware metaphors. 555 00:38:33,608 --> 00:38:39,048 This is a very common thing in the whole like starting up a Bitcoin business. 556 00:38:39,068 --> 00:38:43,428 A lot of people like don't like, you know, like, like Balaji, a regular computer is a 557 00:38:43,428 --> 00:38:44,428 Bitcoin computer. 558 00:38:44,428 --> 00:38:47,228 Like, like, what are you talking about? 559 00:38:47,228 --> 00:38:50,508 So a lot of like weird stuff is going on. 560 00:38:50,508 --> 00:38:54,508 People are figuring out how software works a second time. 561 00:38:54,508 --> 00:38:55,508 Yes. 562 00:38:55,508 --> 00:39:00,748 Well, it almost seems like most of the ideas in Bitcoin are like random, like randomly 563 00:39:00,748 --> 00:39:01,748 generated. 564 00:39:01,748 --> 00:39:02,748 Yeah. 565 00:39:02,748 --> 00:39:03,748 It's very Hayekian. 566 00:39:03,748 --> 00:39:04,748 Right. 567 00:39:04,748 --> 00:39:05,748 They're just like, we don't know anything. 568 00:39:05,748 --> 00:39:06,748 We have no theory. 569 00:39:06,748 --> 00:39:07,748 Yeah. 570 00:39:07,748 --> 00:39:08,748 It's a disappointingly Hayekian. 571 00:39:09,448 --> 00:39:12,528 It's like we, this is a slime mold and we have no idea. 572 00:39:12,528 --> 00:39:15,008 We'll just proceed in all directions at once. 573 00:39:15,008 --> 00:39:19,888 And well, part of it is that this is a really interesting effect that a lot of people want 574 00:39:19,888 --> 00:39:25,528 to, a lot of people are misled by the blockchain without Bitcoin meme. 575 00:39:25,528 --> 00:39:29,768 And it got so much emperor's new clothes, like kind of credibility from everyone. 576 00:39:29,768 --> 00:39:31,728 And then I remember it was 2016. 577 00:39:31,728 --> 00:39:35,288 You had like Larry Summers talking about it and then the governor of Delaware was like 578 00:39:35,348 --> 00:39:38,348 trying to make Delaware the blockchain state. 579 00:39:38,348 --> 00:39:40,348 Isn't that crazy? 580 00:39:40,348 --> 00:39:43,868 Well, nobody understands why Bitcoin is valuable. 581 00:39:43,868 --> 00:39:44,868 Okay. 582 00:39:44,868 --> 00:39:48,868 So there's no, it's just, it's like the blind leading the blind. 583 00:39:48,868 --> 00:39:56,668 So you can just create all of these new blockchains and that have like almost no difference between 584 00:39:56,668 --> 00:40:00,708 them and Bitcoin and they can make tons of money. 585 00:40:00,728 --> 00:40:04,728 And so then there's tons of incentive to just paper over, to, you know, 586 00:40:04,728 --> 00:40:09,168 That's what I'm saying is that who's like getting really like, why is it such, why is 587 00:40:09,168 --> 00:40:11,048 it doing a slime mold thing? 588 00:40:11,048 --> 00:40:15,368 I think the investors are just like, you know, institutional investors with us dollars just 589 00:40:15,368 --> 00:40:21,728 like pouring money into these companies and they just, they think you can do anything 590 00:40:21,728 --> 00:40:25,568 and they, they don't know, they don't know what they're doing and they're just like kind 591 00:40:25,568 --> 00:40:26,808 of buying options or something. 592 00:40:26,808 --> 00:40:29,608 And they're just like, they don't know. 593 00:40:29,608 --> 00:40:31,028 There's no theory. 594 00:40:31,028 --> 00:40:34,188 So that's a very bizarre thing that's happening. 595 00:40:34,188 --> 00:40:35,188 Okay. 596 00:40:35,188 --> 00:40:37,708 Well, do you have anything else to add? 597 00:40:37,708 --> 00:40:41,908 Because I think we've pretty much gone over everything I wanted to learn. 598 00:40:41,908 --> 00:40:43,788 Well, I'm not sure. 599 00:40:43,788 --> 00:40:44,788 Well, yeah. 600 00:40:44,788 --> 00:40:50,308 One thing I'll add is that this proposal has a very interesting interpersonal, Drivechain 601 00:40:50,308 --> 00:40:56,628 is a very interesting interpersonal effect, I think, which is that it, it decreases the 602 00:40:56,728 --> 00:41:02,728 relevance of being a Bitcoin expert because if you, it's not like the way we are now is 603 00:41:02,728 --> 00:41:12,948 that there's only one Bitcoin, it's only like one Bitcoin television channel, the core channel. 604 00:41:12,948 --> 00:41:16,888 And so if you're the producer of that channel or if you're one of the producers, then you're 605 00:41:16,888 --> 00:41:21,008 a really important person and like having access to that person and like being their 606 00:41:21,008 --> 00:41:25,188 friend and your money or whatever, that's like a big deal. 607 00:41:25,188 --> 00:41:29,528 But if you change it all around so that anyone can create that, you make it more like YouTube 608 00:41:29,528 --> 00:41:33,008 where anyone can create their own channel and anyone can listen to whatever channel 609 00:41:33,008 --> 00:41:34,008 they want. 610 00:41:34,008 --> 00:41:39,048 So instead of being like broadcast television through the airwaves, it's more like the internet. 611 00:41:39,048 --> 00:41:43,728 Then it's not really important to be friends with that guy anymore, the original producer. 612 00:41:43,728 --> 00:41:49,008 And maybe he's like a great advisor or maybe, maybe not, or maybe whatever, like maybe he 613 00:41:49,008 --> 00:41:54,448 was good at certain things like trying to manage all these compromises, but now it's 614 00:41:54,468 --> 00:42:00,068 different and this whole thing, you have the long tail and you have these niches and it 615 00:42:00,068 --> 00:42:02,428 looks, maybe it looks different. 616 00:42:02,428 --> 00:42:03,428 So I think- 617 00:42:03,428 --> 00:42:04,428 Oh, you said niches. 618 00:42:04,428 --> 00:42:09,868 For a moment I thought you said geishas and I was like, what is he talking about? 619 00:42:09,868 --> 00:42:10,868 That would be cool too though. 620 00:42:10,868 --> 00:42:11,868 Yeah. 621 00:42:11,868 --> 00:42:17,468 That would also be, yeah, we can put that in, put images of that everywhere. 622 00:42:17,568 --> 00:42:27,248 I think it's interesting that it kind of, I'm not sure how to say, like I'm not, people, 623 00:42:27,248 --> 00:42:33,448 there's a Milton Friedman has like a big paragraph about why the free market has a bad press 624 00:42:33,448 --> 00:42:38,528 and why, you know, there's like a lot of heat from intellectuals who don't like markets 625 00:42:38,528 --> 00:42:42,888 because it means that they'll no longer be experts because you're free to try every dumb 626 00:42:42,888 --> 00:42:43,888 idea. 627 00:42:44,428 --> 00:42:51,228 And so it means that they're just, you know, so I am not sure exactly what will happen 628 00:42:51,228 --> 00:42:55,768 as a result of that effect, but I think it is salient and I think people should watch 629 00:42:55,768 --> 00:43:01,228 for it and be kind of pay some attention to it. 630 00:43:01,228 --> 00:43:02,228 Okay. 631 00:43:02,228 --> 00:43:10,588 Well, thanks a lot for joining me and here's to more future productive discussions. 632 00:43:10,588 --> 00:43:11,588 Okay. 633 00:43:12,288 --> 00:43:13,288 Okay. 634 00:43:13,288 --> 00:43:14,288 I'll talk to you later. 635 00:43:14,288 --> 00:43:15,288 All right. 636 00:43:15,288 --> 00:43:16,288 Bye.