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What is up, you beautiful people? Welcome back to the Built on Bitcoin podcast,
where we cover

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all the innovation happening inside the Bitcoin ecosystem. I'm your host, Jacob
Brown,

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but you'll see me on the interwebs as jakeblockchain. And today, I have Paul Sztorc
on

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the podcast. If you're not familiar with Paul, check him out on Twitter at
Truthcoin. But he is

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the creator of BIP300/301, which is a Bitcoin improvement proposal that
allows Bitcoin

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to have sidechains that don't affect and ruin the base layer. So you can get
different things like

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Ethereum-like sidechains or Monero functionality for privacy as attachments, but it
doesn't ruin

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the beauty of the base layer. So the base layer would still be the conservative
money layer that

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it is. And then you can push your coins out into sidechains as you wish is the idea.
So we cover a

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lot. We cover what fascinates him about Bitcoin. We cover what is BIP300, what are
the reservations

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people have, talk through some of that, talk about the current state of Bitcoin
maximalism,

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is it good or bad, and a bunch of other topics. So I love this conversation, super
interesting.

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This is also the first official podcast in my new direction, moving away from just
being

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stacks focused and going to Bitcoin innovation proper. So starting with Paul, but
you're going

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to see everything from Lightning to RSK to more stacks and beyond. Before we jump
in,

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Go to start.stacks.org to start learning and building today. So without further ado,

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let's cue my amazing segue music and jump in this podcast with Paul Sztorc.

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Welcome to Built on Bitcoin.

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Paul, how are you doing today, my man? I'm doing good. How are you? I am. I'm very
good. I'm excited

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for this conversation. Up to this point, just for some context for you and people
listening further,

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I've been a Stacks podcast up to this point, and now I'm expanding into Bitcoin
proper over the

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day. You are number one. Fuck that Stacks podcast. This is over. That's right.
Bitcoin's the thing.

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That's in the past now. So you're the inaugural first guest of the Built on Bitcoin,
focusing

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on Bitcoin innovation and all of its facets. So that's kind of my niche. That's
right. I feel

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good. I feel really good. And yeah, you were interesting because as I've been going
through

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my journey, you kind of see like fringe-ish things around Bitcoin that either don't
get the love they

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deserve. And as a Stacks person, you definitely feel that too. As a Stacks person,
everyone

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in Bitcoin has been very welcoming and supportive. 100%. Yeah. Bitcoin maxes are
just like really

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nice Walmart greeters. That's really easy for me to believe. Yeah. So yeah, you felt
like a natural

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to transition to this. There's a lot to talk about. And before we jump into any
specifics

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of what you've been building and Bitcoin maximalism, because it's the hot topic
right now,

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I'd love to hear how, not how you got into Bitcoin, but what fascinates you about
Bitcoin?

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Well, I think really like it's an abstraction that you can own. So it's kind of like
people

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can own like google.com, like they own the name, but money itself is already pretty

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fascinating, right? It's like this persuasive force. Like you can just like
announce,

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oh, I'll give a million dollars if someone can bring me a shirt or whatever, like a
tray,

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a banana, people will do it. Like it's like this magnetic field that you can cast on
people to

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get them to change what they do with their lives. Like people go to work every day
for money and

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they toil away. So money is pretty fascinating as is. And so I guess this whole
point is now

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called the digital scarcity idea. This idea that you have all the benefits of
something

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that's digital. You can copy and paste it and send it around the world. You can back
it up

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in the cloud. So digital stuff is great, but it's a digital thing that you can own.
And that's

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pretty cool. More directly though, I did get into Bitcoin by reading the Silk Road
article

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long ago. And I was like, oh, regular people are using this online to buy drugs. And
so I was like,

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it's only a matter of time before it conquers the entire dark part of the economy,
which I

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studied economics. So I knew that it was actually like $10 trillion a year, like
huge second largest

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economy in the world was the entire black market of the world. And I was like, once
it does that,

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it will just start gobbling up these smaller and smaller nations that have these
terrible

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banking, central banking, monetary policy governments. And it would just gobble them
up.

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And then I just thought, I don't see why it would ever stop. It would just take over
the entire

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planet. So I was like, it was like part selfish also, because I was like, the
potential is there.

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This will just, it'll be like the internet and it'll just crush everything. So
what's

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not fascinating about that? I mean, that's pretty fascinating, objectively, I would
think.

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I would say so. It's also interesting because money is an interesting,

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it does give you a lot of power. You can capture labor in some sense, and then you
can also

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get things done on the other side. But you also, in your definition, you expanded it
to more than

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just money. And you went to digital scarcity, which is, that's a nuance that I
think, coming

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from more of a Stacks Web 3-ish view, a lot of Bitcoiners don't seem to hold. They
don't see the

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value in NFTs or really securing these tokens on the blockchain for anything besides
money.

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Yeah. Well, but the NFT is like, who's, because it's clearly the losing side of the
argument,

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right? If you think about it, the NFTs, it's clearly working with regular people.
Are they

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a good investment? I mean, almost certainly the answer is no, but people like, I can
give you a

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lot of examples. So we have stuff like Pokemon cards, baseball cards, et cetera. But
I had a

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friend who would, he would go to the movies and he would put the, he'd save the
ticket stub of the

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movie. And he had this big wall in his bedroom growing up. And he filled them up
with the movie

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ticket stubs, which is like, he collected the ticket stub. It was like a proof that
he had

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seen the movie and it told you about his life. And it was like a thing in the room.
And this

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is a completely normal person. This was not like a technology, early adopter,

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whatever, like entrepreneur, scientist type person. This was like a very normal
person.

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And so that's just a normal thing. It's a completely normal human thing to do.

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And so that's the people who are arguing against NFTs are just not going to win
because

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the idea of collecting things, it's like any play, any game is like most games are

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even like a regular, like a Mario game, you're walking around collecting coins and
things,

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or like either like this farm simulator games or you're collecting wins in a
different game,

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like a Starcraft or something. So I think that's, and everyone's going to be brought
around to that

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point of view. I think the maximalism thing is not even about that. It's just

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the view that everything else is a scam. And then people just regurgitate it in
every case

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where they think it might possibly apply, even in cases where it obviously wouldn't,

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it wouldn't apply. And even like how Finney and Satoshi, how Finney and Satoshi
also,

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both of them introduced the idea of that, like a crypto trading card. You must be
familiar with

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the how Finney met from the nineties where he's, he, he was like making that
metaphor. So,

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so really everyone does. It's one of the, just, it's just a case of the runaway
train of the

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toxic maximalism. Yeah. Yeah. The collectible example seems that one's pretty easy
to

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understand. I think that the one that's more eyeopening to me is that once you have
these

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kinds of protocol standards attached to this, you can do different things besides
just kind of

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like store it in your little box and whatever. And I get kind of the maxi point of
view of like

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decentralization rules all, because as you go off that spectrum, you're going more
towards

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a database. So it doesn't make sense to have a blockchain for things that don't
matter

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or trivial in their perspective. But I think I see that as a spectrum in my
perspective,

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like you have the most centralized, which should be money. And then you have
databases

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that are even the like unlimited block size, a block blockchain with an unlimited
block size

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would probably be superior to a database that has unlimited read, write potential
anyway.

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So even in the extreme case, a blockchain would be superior. And in what way, just,

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just briefly, like what, why? First of all, what do you lose basically? Because if
it's

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the centralized database, then someone is just going to pay and they're going to
have their own

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optimized high performance software, hardware. And, but if it's a huge unlimited
block size

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thing, then blockchain, then maybe you have a more convoluted

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serialization of the data, a more convoluted software that may be orders of
magnitude slower,

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but it doesn't matter because the, if someone has the, if someone has an interest in
running the,

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the, like the SQL server or whatever it is, the database, then they can run, you
know,

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these days with the hardware, what it is, and with even software and what it is,

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and with optimizations, someone can just run the, the huge node. Okay. So a huge
blockchain

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with one node is very similar to the, to SQL server at this point, because I don't
believe

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that the performance hit and something that would be very niche, like selling Bruce
Springsteen

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tickets or selling movie theater tickets. You know what I mean? Like the, that is
not going

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to, there's not going to be like a significant performance difference between the
two.

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And so first of all, you lose basically nothing, but you gain quite a bit because
you really do

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have the, the, not your keys, not your coins situation. And they do your, what your
property

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really can't be taken from you absent the 51% attack. Okay. Interesting. You gain a
lot.

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You still can use SPV validation, no matter what the block size is. So, so people
gain quite a bit.

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The real question there is like authentication. Like if people want to authenticate
with keys,

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because as we know, people lose their keys and it's not today, we have the forgot
your password

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email link, which I think someone should invent like a parallel version of that.

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We could do that where you have like a one of two multi-sig. And one of them is to
start with some

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guy. And this would be totally inadequate for serious people, but for regular
grandma user,

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like you say, a spectrum, that'd be fine. I like that. I said, it's, it's so funny
hearing

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you because it just seems so practical in the way that you're suggesting things. And

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before we go into BIP300, I want to touch on the current kind of maximalism news
that's been

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having its heyday in the past week. And it seems to me like the big debate, I know
you've been

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under a rock that the, the big debate to me seems to be about a part of it's
fighting over

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intellectual debates, but it seems like, well, one thing that happened, I'll tell
you is like,

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they used to be like super smart people producing a lot of great ideas. And then
those ideas have

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filtered downstream to like what I'm going to say, the second class. And now a lot
of the first

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class people, like I'm talking about I guess I'm talking about like Udi and maybe
like he was the

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originator of many great ideas, as you may know. And then he flips and now he's
fighting against

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his former students. So it's kind of like whatever Darth Vader fighting Obi-Wan
Kenobi or something.

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And and that's basically how it's going down because there's too much stasis now in
Bitcoin.

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So the people who are smart and generating new ideas have nothing to do. And there's
a big

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superstructure about like whether or not that's a good thing.

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And but it's assuredly a bad thing. Yeah, I think the smart people leave is the
worst thing.

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Totally. And one of the things that seems to be it kind of gets focused on Udi's
doing it about

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what's the actual best way to attract new Bitcoiners. And that seems to be lost on
the

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Maxis where it's like you either get it or you're an idiot. And they're not really
speaking to the

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person who's newer. It was this was this is an amiss. But in the past, there were
people

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in the past, there were no genuine competitors to Bitcoin at all. So it really was
the case that

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anyone who studied it long enough would learn that. Now, smart people in the past
knew that.

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So you had some interesting characters, including like the Nakamoto Institute guys,

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including like Daniel Krajewicz and these other people who have since like kind of
gone crazy.

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But then there was also this character Merchant Popescu, whom a lot of people have
imitated.

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And he was like, he was this guy who was just 100 million percent convinced that

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Bitcoin would crush everything in its path and that it would never be it would be
the

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unmoved mover like no one would be able to change it. And so he was like an ardent
small blocker.

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He maintained his own version. He thought that Bitcoin should stop upgrading. He was
the original

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ossification guy. And he goes way, way back, years and years. And now people are
trying to

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imitate him. Also, Nassim Taleb used to do this as well, where he would just bully
people

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on Twitter. And that was the gimmick. It was like for engagement. It was like,

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it doesn't really matter whether or not it was like a Jenna Maroney type of a thing
from 30 Rock

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or something where it's like, it doesn't matter if any of this is true or not. It's
just for

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publicity, you know, like a kind of a weirdo thing like that. So people started to
imitate that.

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But since those people were never smart enough to figure it out why it worked in the
first place,

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they now just completely they keep regurgitating it. But I don't know if you had a
more specific

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question about. Well, I think it kind of dovetails into maybe how the catalyst for
BIP300 came about,

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but. No, it actually didn't at all, because I came up with the idea behind BIP300

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long ago, because I had this prediction market idea like a really long time ago,
like 10 years

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ago. And I was like, going to try to figure out if I could get it to work first. And
I got it to

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work, but it involved all these things that were so alien to Bitcoin that I knew you
could never

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really add it to Bitcoin like in a soft fork or something. It would be like so
bizarre if you did,

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like it would just be weird. So the idea of the sidechain was like kind of being
invented at that

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time. But I had in parallel, I just had an idea and I just said, listen, I'll make a
whole,

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I like kind of independently invented a couple of things where I said, like, I have
this other

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blockchain over here, and we'll just have this person, this oracle, very similar to
what

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Blockstream eventually called the federated sidechain, which is a terrible phrase
bordering

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on fraud. But I had a very similar idea before then, long before, this was even
before Segler

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was a thing. And the idea was it would watch as people deposited coins, it would
send them to the

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oracle, the oracle would credit them, you could write the software to credit them
over on the

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sidechain. So it was a very much a layer two type of a thing. And then when people
wanted coins back,

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this oracle would sign the withdrawals. So I kind of punted everything to the
oracle.

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This was like getting closer and closer to the solution all the time, because I was
like,

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the oracle was a key, you can have a key, a public private key, the oracle can
understand what's

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going on, even though the Bitcoin network can't. So I was like, we'll punt to the
oracle. And then

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I was like, the oracle is only going to sign if a certain number of blocks pass.
That later became

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like what was known as the SPV proof in the Blockstream lingo, or the whatever you
want to

184
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call it, dictionary, their definitions. And so I had that idea. And then I was like,
what if you

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could just do something where, you know, I was really stuck on this idea of like, if
a certain

186
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number of blocks pass, then you just kind of let it through. Because I knew that the
way it would

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work is that you could do an awful lot to make sure that the blockchain was either
completely

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100% valid, or like something had gone wrong. So you could do a lot of like error
corrections,

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like a big funnel. And you could say it's 100% right, or something somewhere has
gone right. And

190
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that would give people at least some incentive to keep it 100% right, since any
deviation would

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crash the whole thing. And so then I later on, I was like, okay, BIP300 was just,
we'll do

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a soft fork to Bitcoin, so that it can become aware, in some cases of this little
score, this

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little number that kicks up as blocks are added to the main chain Bitcoin. And if
the score

194
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reaches a certain amount, then a certain withdrawal is let through and that's BIP300. So I don't know

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if that explanation is intelligible, but it really had nothing to do with, I had all
of it kind of

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worked out on bitcointalk.org, like in early 2014 or something. So it had nothing to
do with

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that. And there was no, even the block size war, which was getting worse every year.

198
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It still wasn't, it had only been so many years, so it wasn't that bad. It was
nowhere near as bad

199
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as it would later become. Just for quick context, how bad, on like a scale from one
to 10, how bad

200
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is it right now compared to back then? The worst was probably, I think the worst
was, it's hard to

201
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say. I think it's got to be, would have to be that the worst was like 2017, 2018
with the actual

202
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eruption into two blockchains. But Bitcoin cash very quickly lost, I would say in
2018.

203
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So then I would say, and then 2019 and then COVID distracted everyone.

204
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It just was like so psychologically important that it was, so I would say that that
was the worst.

205
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And then, but the crazy thing was for years it would get like 2012, it started to
get bad. Then

206
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2013, it was like 10 times worse. And then it got like 10 times worse every year.
Like every year

207
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people would say stuff like, there's no way it can get worse. There's no way it can
get any more

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contentious than it is now. But then there was like people being super, super mean.
And then

209
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there was like death threats, and there was like denial of service attacking, like a
power plant

210
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at one point. It was like completely, got very bad. And just like complete hatred,
everyone.

211
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To the degree, and this is the problem though, the toxicity today is partly a result
of the side,

212
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one side having won and one side having lost. Because the side that won, it was so
emotional

213
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and everything that it became overconfident and complacent.

214
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That makes sense. Okay. So for context, did you start working on the kind of stuff
that led to

215
00:21:54,480 --> 00:22:00,080
200 in 2014? Or was this- Yes. It was an idea though. I never worked on the code
until much

216
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:05,360
later because I was busy working on the actual prediction markets project, which I
did mostly

217
00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:12,160
through like 2015, 2016. Okay. And so yeah, now I want to, I'd love to get more into
the weeds

218
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about BIP300, but let's go over it one more time. What, in like a good summation,
what is

219
00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:23,200
BIP300 for those who don't understand it? Well, BIP300 is a very, very, very
simple,

220
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:31,520
super simple, but very effective SPV proof. So the question is, what is SPV proof?
SPV proof

221
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:38,400
is something that you can attach to a transaction that it hinges, it goes left
versus right. It goes

222
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:45,600
left if a certain amount of work has endorsed, certain amount of hash rate has
endorsed the

223
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:51,840
transaction and it goes right if it has not. So that's, so you can make, you build a
transaction

224
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:56,800
so that these are the withdrawals from the sidechain. You build a transaction so
that it relies

225
00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:03,280
on that little lock. And then the transaction can be basically spent by the miners.
But in this

226
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:09,600
case, the lock is three months worth of a hundred percent of the hash rate or six
months of 51%

227
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:14,160
of the hash rate or anything in between. So it takes an enormous amount of hash
rate,

228
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:19,760
enormous amount of time to open the box any certain way. And the question is, what's
the

229
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use of that? And the answer is the sidechains generate value for the miners. They
generate

230
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:29,680
transaction fees and they make the coin more valuable, their existence, like just
having a

231
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:35,520
Zcash sidechain around that lets people have privacy or just having the large block
sidechains

232
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:46,720
around that gives them value, value to the Bitcoin miners. So collectively they,
it's like a huge

233
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:52,800
multi-sig that's like a 13,150 out of 26,000, huge multi-sig, but you can only have
one signature

234
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:57,600
per block. That's some way of explaining it. So this basically, it's the way of,

235
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:04,880
it's a way of re, if you don't think that there's going to be a 51% attack, then
it's a way of

236
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:10,080
getting away with murder basically, because you can have this, you can have anything
happen over

237
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:16,080
on the sidechain world and then main chain layer one world does not have to deal
with any of that.

238
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:20,880
It can ignore all of that, but you can still get all the benefits. I don't know if
that made any

239
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:26,320
sense. I should probably work on the elevator speech for that, I suppose. It would
help for me.

240
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:33,120
I'm going to do my best to dance around though. So, so if this was enacted, the
Bitcoin main

241
00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:41,440
chain will be seeing transactions four times a year. The, yeah, the, but the
withdrawal attempts

242
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:47,520
show up in the Coinbase first. So you can, anyone can attempt at any time, but per
sidechain,

243
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:54,000
only one, it's like slowly running across a big field or slowly taking a train from
like

244
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:58,720
New York to LA. That's going really, really slow. And three months later,

245
00:24:58,947 --> 00:25:00,947
the withdrawal starts and it's finally three months later it docks in LA and

246
00:25:00,947 --> 00:25:05,947
then it can be included in a block and go through as a regular LL1 transaction.

247
00:25:05,947 --> 00:25:10,947
Okay. But so, so that's from kind of like the initiation to when it finalizes,

248
00:25:10,947 --> 00:25:15,947
but is, is the initiation happening every Bitcoin block? So it's 10?

249
00:25:15,947 --> 00:25:20,947
No, it's just whenever it's not, whenever anyone wants to,

250
00:25:20,947 --> 00:25:25,947
a minor, anyone who finds any block can propose the withdrawal.

251
00:25:25,947 --> 00:25:28,947
So you can, you can propose one whenever you like.

252
00:25:28,947 --> 00:25:31,947
And in fact, you can propose them all the time, but within the side,

253
00:25:31,947 --> 00:25:33,947
like sidechain number four or something,

254
00:25:33,947 --> 00:25:36,947
only one out of all that have been proposed can,

255
00:25:36,947 --> 00:25:40,947
can move one step closer to the finish line.

256
00:25:40,947 --> 00:25:42,947
And is there a deadline?

257
00:25:42,947 --> 00:25:43,947
Yeah, there's a deadline.

258
00:25:44,947 --> 00:25:46,947
Yes, because they're separate.

259
00:25:46,947 --> 00:25:48,947
Okay. So there's a,

260
00:25:48,947 --> 00:25:52,947
I saw one video where you were giving examples of like Bit Zcash, Bit Monero.

261
00:25:52,947 --> 00:25:53,947
You can do it.

262
00:25:53,947 --> 00:25:57,947
So you could fork, yeah. So you could fork stacks, remove the token.

263
00:25:57,947 --> 00:26:00,947
These would all be individual depending on the,

264
00:26:00,947 --> 00:26:02,947
the type of token that you're looking for.

265
00:26:02,947 --> 00:26:04,947
So you can, you can, you can, you can, you can,

266
00:26:04,947 --> 00:26:06,947
you can fork a lot of different types of tokens.

267
00:26:06,947 --> 00:26:08,947
You can fork a lot of different types of tokens.

268
00:26:08,947 --> 00:26:10,947
You can fork stacks, remove the token.

269
00:26:10,947 --> 00:26:14,947
These would all be individual depending on the activity of the network or

270
00:26:14,947 --> 00:26:16,947
interest in the network.

271
00:26:16,947 --> 00:26:17,947
Yeah. The, the,

272
00:26:17,947 --> 00:26:21,947
the key revolution of sidechains or a BIP300 or however you want to think

273
00:26:21,947 --> 00:26:25,947
about it is I would say is one of responsibility.

274
00:26:25,947 --> 00:26:30,947
So right now.

275
00:26:30,947 --> 00:26:33,947
The there is, we have a, we have a weird situation where there's,

276
00:26:33,947 --> 00:26:34,947
no one is responsible.

277
00:26:34,947 --> 00:26:38,947
What I'm getting at is each sidechain kind of like has its own little CEO,

278
00:26:38,947 --> 00:26:41,947
the benevolent dictator developer who runs the project,

279
00:26:41,947 --> 00:26:47,947
but that person is accountable to the actual users.

280
00:26:47,947 --> 00:26:50,947
Because if no one sends any coins there,

281
00:26:50,947 --> 00:26:52,947
then there's no coins on the network.

282
00:26:52,947 --> 00:26:54,947
So the network may exist, but there's no one there.

283
00:26:54,947 --> 00:26:58,947
So it's like opening a store and that has no customers.

284
00:26:58,947 --> 00:27:00,947
But what you don't want,

285
00:27:00,947 --> 00:27:05,947
you don't want developers to be accountable to other developers.

286
00:27:05,947 --> 00:27:07,947
That is a huge mistake.

287
00:27:07,947 --> 00:27:09,947
Is that obvious why that would be like having,

288
00:27:09,947 --> 00:27:11,947
it'd be like having the,

289
00:27:11,947 --> 00:27:15,947
that would be having Tim cook be accountable to whatever,

290
00:27:15,947 --> 00:27:19,947
like, I don't know, Jamie diamond or whatever,

291
00:27:19,947 --> 00:27:22,947
the guy from Amazon, the house, that guy's name, I'm blanking on his name.

292
00:27:22,947 --> 00:27:26,947
Jeff Bezos. Yeah. Jeff Bezos. So like,

293
00:27:27,947 --> 00:27:30,947
that would be like Tim cook being accountable to Jeff Bezos,

294
00:27:30,947 --> 00:27:32,947
but that's outrageous.

295
00:27:32,947 --> 00:27:36,947
Tim cook is accountable to the apple shareholders and the apple apple

296
00:27:36,947 --> 00:27:38,947
customers. Okay.

297
00:27:38,947 --> 00:27:39,947
So give a,

298
00:27:39,947 --> 00:27:43,947
now you shouldn't give a one piece of, you know,

299
00:27:43,947 --> 00:27:46,947
you shouldn't care one bit about,

300
00:27:46,947 --> 00:27:50,947
except as in terms of if Amazon is going to be competing with him for the

301
00:27:50,947 --> 00:27:52,947
customers, but he should only care.

302
00:27:52,947 --> 00:27:55,947
The focus has to be on the customers, but we have,

303
00:27:55,947 --> 00:28:00,947
we have like a USSR developer, a weirdo committee thing,

304
00:28:00,947 --> 00:28:02,947
which is horrible. It's hard to say.

305
00:28:02,947 --> 00:28:05,947
It's hard to understate how bad night and day it would be.

306
00:28:05,947 --> 00:28:08,947
If we had little,

307
00:28:08,947 --> 00:28:12,947
little different CEOs that had people where people have total accountability

308
00:28:12,947 --> 00:28:15,947
and total control over the blockchain, their blockchain.

309
00:28:15,947 --> 00:28:18,947
So they can say, I think the block size should be exactly this.

310
00:28:18,947 --> 00:28:21,947
And I'm accountable to if people like that,

311
00:28:21,947 --> 00:28:24,947
I'm going to tell a story. And if people like that,

312
00:28:24,947 --> 00:28:27,947
they'll come and if I'm wrong, then they'll leave. Or if I'm wrong,

313
00:28:27,947 --> 00:28:28,947
then the network will get,

314
00:28:28,947 --> 00:28:32,947
we'll get hacked and everyone will lose their coins or the miners will drop

315
00:28:32,947 --> 00:28:35,947
it because they won't be able to figure out they'll,

316
00:28:35,947 --> 00:28:36,947
they'll decide it's not good for Bitcoin.

317
00:28:36,947 --> 00:28:38,947
So that's the other thing is if this network isn't,

318
00:28:38,947 --> 00:28:43,947
isn't contributing to the value of Bitcoin and to the transaction fees,

319
00:28:43,947 --> 00:28:46,947
then it will, it'll just get dropped.

320
00:28:46,947 --> 00:28:48,947
They'll just stop supporting it.

321
00:28:48,947 --> 00:28:52,947
And that's a good thing because this keeps everyone aligned,

322
00:28:52,947 --> 00:28:54,947
which is exactly what we want.

323
00:28:54,947 --> 00:28:59,947
And we don't want a situation where basically whatever it is,

324
00:28:59,947 --> 00:29:03,947
like Tim Cook can tell Jeff Bezos that he can't do something or vice versa.

325
00:29:03,947 --> 00:29:05,947
We want them to actually to hate each other.

326
00:29:05,947 --> 00:29:09,947
It's actually much better if they hate each other and they constantly

327
00:29:09,947 --> 00:29:13,947
frustrate each other because each is working harder and harder to please the

328
00:29:13,947 --> 00:29:16,947
customer. You know what I mean? Then you have someone else,

329
00:29:16,947 --> 00:29:20,947
someone else, the yeah. What are those people? The Walton,

330
00:29:20,947 --> 00:29:22,947
the Walmart people.

331
00:29:22,947 --> 00:29:26,947
So we want to have, we ought to have all that.

332
00:29:26,947 --> 00:29:30,947
We want to have all those people who hate each other. Instead of today,

333
00:29:30,947 --> 00:29:36,947
we have a thing where everyone has to agree with everything and everyone has

334
00:29:36,947 --> 00:29:39,947
to reach a consensus.

335
00:29:39,947 --> 00:29:42,947
The truth can't be found by consensus.

336
00:29:42,947 --> 00:29:44,947
You have to have advocacy like we have in the,

337
00:29:44,947 --> 00:29:49,947
like a defendant and a prosecutor and you have to have,

338
00:29:49,947 --> 00:29:52,947
you have to have a confrontation.

339
00:29:52,947 --> 00:29:55,947
Okay. So in, in this,

340
00:29:55,947 --> 00:29:59,947
it can never be found by consensus consensus is good for a blockchain,

341
00:29:59,947 --> 00:30:01,947
but it's very bad for humans.

342
00:30:01,947 --> 00:30:05,947
Consensus is like North Korea or like 1984 and it is a nightmare world.

343
00:30:05,947 --> 00:30:08,947
Okay. So in this example,

344
00:30:08,947 --> 00:30:09,947
the, the,

345
00:30:09,947 --> 00:30:14,947
the users that Bezos and Tim Cook are fighting for are BTC owners.

346
00:30:14,947 --> 00:30:15,947
Yeah.

347
00:30:15,947 --> 00:30:18,947
You keep your coins on layer one where it's going to be really,

348
00:30:18,947 --> 00:30:22,947
really conservative and really safe and a very ossified small block size.

349
00:30:22,947 --> 00:30:27,947
You keep your coins there and then you have the option to go to any side

350
00:30:27,947 --> 00:30:31,947
chain or none whenever you want and possibly never.

351
00:30:31,947 --> 00:30:34,947
And God bless you. If you pick now, they have to entice you over.

352
00:30:34,947 --> 00:30:37,947
They say, listen, send the coins to sidechain.

353
00:30:37,947 --> 00:30:41,947
Number three, it's got a Zcash mixer or whatever.

354
00:30:41,947 --> 00:30:44,947
You know what I mean? So people say, okay, listen,

355
00:30:44,947 --> 00:30:47,947
with 5% of my coins,

356
00:30:47,947 --> 00:30:51,947
I'm going to give it a try or with $5 a minuscule portion,

357
00:30:51,947 --> 00:30:52,947
I'll give it a try.

358
00:30:52,947 --> 00:30:55,947
And then they decide if they get more comfortable with it,

359
00:30:55,947 --> 00:30:56,947
they give it more of a try.

360
00:30:56,947 --> 00:30:58,947
The same way you would try out a new restaurant or anything.

361
00:30:58,947 --> 00:31:00,947
See, can you imagine how absurd it would be?

362
00:31:00,947 --> 00:31:03,947
If two people opened a restaurant and both of them were accountable to like

363
00:31:03,947 --> 00:31:04,947
whatever.

364
00:31:04,947 --> 00:31:05,947
The restaurant,

365
00:31:05,947 --> 00:31:08,947
which is like five streets away or something and everything had to go

366
00:31:08,947 --> 00:31:09,947
through that one person.

367
00:31:09,947 --> 00:31:10,947
That would be absurd,

368
00:31:10,947 --> 00:31:13,947
but that's what we have except copied and pasted and stamped out into

369
00:31:13,947 --> 00:31:14,947
every.

370
00:31:14,947 --> 00:31:15,947
All the old coins.

371
00:31:15,947 --> 00:31:16,947
Every chain is.

372
00:31:16,947 --> 00:31:18,947
A kind of a totem pole.

373
00:31:18,947 --> 00:31:19,947
It's like,

374
00:31:19,947 --> 00:31:21,947
I don't know if you've ever heard of a totem pole,

375
00:31:21,947 --> 00:31:22,947
but it's like a,

376
00:31:22,947 --> 00:31:27,947
it's like a,

377
00:31:27,947 --> 00:31:31,947
It's like a chain that is a kind of a totalitarian.

378
00:31:31,947 --> 00:31:32,947
Chain.

379
00:31:32,947 --> 00:31:33,947
And this is a kind of,

380
00:31:33,947 --> 00:31:35,947
we don't have anything that celebrates the descent,

381
00:31:35,947 --> 00:31:39,947
which is the sidechain dream.

382
00:31:39,947 --> 00:31:41,947
So if you're.

383
00:31:41,947 --> 00:31:43,947
I want to make this practical for people and myself.

384
00:31:43,947 --> 00:31:44,947
If you,

385
00:31:44,947 --> 00:31:45,947
if you fork Manero,

386
00:31:45,947 --> 00:31:46,947
let's say,

387
00:31:46,947 --> 00:31:48,947
and then we put it as a bit Manero.

388
00:31:48,947 --> 00:31:50,947
And I start to move my BTC over there.

389
00:31:50,947 --> 00:31:54,947
What does that look like practically?

390
00:31:54,947 --> 00:31:55,947
So I just,

391
00:31:55,947 --> 00:31:56,947
I,

392
00:31:56,947 --> 00:31:57,947
I move it over.

393
00:31:57,947 --> 00:31:58,947
What's sitting on,

394
00:31:58,947 --> 00:32:00,947
on bit Manero now.

395
00:32:00,947 --> 00:32:01,947
Bit Manero is a,

396
00:32:01,947 --> 00:32:04,947
would be a modified version of Manero where they never,

397
00:32:04,947 --> 00:32:07,947
the blocks never meant any new coins at all.

398
00:32:07,947 --> 00:32:12,947
So the only coins that are created to show up with deposits.

399
00:32:12,947 --> 00:32:14,947
And also I invent this other thing,

400
00:32:14,947 --> 00:32:15,947
Blind Merged Mining,

401
00:32:15,947 --> 00:32:18,947
which I think you're crazy if you don't use either merge mining or a

402
00:32:18,947 --> 00:32:20,947
regular Blind Merged Mining.

403
00:32:20,947 --> 00:32:21,947
And there's really no controversy.

404
00:32:21,947 --> 00:32:22,947
I think most,

405
00:32:22,947 --> 00:32:25,947
almost everyone agrees with me that.

406
00:32:25,947 --> 00:32:28,947
merge mining and Blind Merged Mining are most of the same thing is mostly

407
00:32:28,947 --> 00:32:29,947
there's no,

408
00:32:29,947 --> 00:32:32,947
the controversies about BIP300 and people not understanding it at all,

409
00:32:32,947 --> 00:32:33,947
which we can get to,

410
00:32:33,947 --> 00:32:34,947
but,

411
00:32:34,947 --> 00:32:36,947
and all the misunderstandings of BIP300,

412
00:32:36,947 --> 00:32:37,947
I interpret it.

413
00:32:37,947 --> 00:32:41,947
I preemptively anticipated in the November,

414
00:32:41,947 --> 00:32:42,947
2015 post.

415
00:32:42,947 --> 00:32:44,947
And so they're all actually in there,

416
00:32:44,947 --> 00:32:46,947
but no one has read the post.

417
00:32:46,947 --> 00:32:50,947
So they don't realize that I was seven years ahead of them even today.

418
00:32:50,947 --> 00:32:51,947
So the,

419
00:32:51,947 --> 00:32:53,947
but to go back to the question,

420
00:32:53,947 --> 00:32:54,947
you have this thing.

421
00:32:54,947 --> 00:32:55,947
There's no new coins.

422
00:32:55,947 --> 00:32:57,947
It is much more like a,

423
00:32:57,947 --> 00:33:01,947
like a lightning node or very much a layer two where it's the software is

424
00:33:01,947 --> 00:33:04,947
there watching each Bitcoin block.

425
00:33:04,947 --> 00:33:05,947
And the software we wrote,

426
00:33:05,947 --> 00:33:09,947
it doesn't even do anything unless it can connect to a Bitcoin full node.

427
00:33:09,947 --> 00:33:12,947
It won't even cause it doesn't know what time it is because of the merge

428
00:33:12,947 --> 00:33:13,947
mining.

429
00:33:13,947 --> 00:33:18,947
So it will use the Bitcoin blocks to figure out even what's happening.

430
00:33:18,947 --> 00:33:19,947
And if you don't do,

431
00:33:19,947 --> 00:33:20,947
you don't connect it,

432
00:33:20,947 --> 00:33:21,947
it will just,

433
00:33:21,947 --> 00:33:22,947
it will just sit there and it will refuse to do anything.

434
00:33:22,947 --> 00:33:24,947
So when you deposit coins in,

435
00:33:24,947 --> 00:33:25,947
we have a,

436
00:33:25,947 --> 00:33:27,947
I can show you screenshots or something,

437
00:33:27,947 --> 00:33:31,947
but in the regular main chain L1,

438
00:33:31,947 --> 00:33:33,947
we built a little gooey graphical thing.

439
00:33:33,947 --> 00:33:34,947
And you,

440
00:33:34,947 --> 00:33:35,947
you make a,

441
00:33:35,947 --> 00:33:38,947
you make a sidechain deposit to rest on the sidechain and you kind of

442
00:33:38,947 --> 00:33:39,947
copy and paste it over.

443
00:33:39,947 --> 00:33:41,947
And so you send them to this thing.

444
00:33:41,947 --> 00:33:45,947
They leave your wallet on the layer one node,

445
00:33:45,947 --> 00:33:48,947
but then as an,

446
00:33:48,947 --> 00:33:50,947
as the next block is found on the sidechain,

447
00:33:50,947 --> 00:33:51,947
or the,

448
00:33:51,947 --> 00:33:53,947
really the blocks are all found as together as groups.

449
00:33:53,947 --> 00:33:54,947
When that block is found,

450
00:33:54,947 --> 00:33:57,947
then you get credited with the new coins over there.

451
00:33:57,947 --> 00:34:00,947
So it's just like sending your coins from one wallet to another wallet,

452
00:34:00,947 --> 00:34:02,947
except the other wallet is in the Bitmonero world.

453
00:34:02,947 --> 00:34:04,947
And once you're in the Bitmonero world,

454
00:34:04,947 --> 00:34:07,947
you can presumably use all the desirable features of Monero,

455
00:34:07,947 --> 00:34:09,947
which would be like the ring signatures and the privacy,

456
00:34:09,947 --> 00:34:10,947
et cetera.

457
00:34:10,947 --> 00:34:11,947
And then when you want,

458
00:34:11,947 --> 00:34:13,947
you can take them back the coins back.

459
00:34:13,947 --> 00:34:14,947
Okay.

460
00:34:14,947 --> 00:34:17,947
Got it.

461
00:34:18,947 --> 00:34:20,947
Go back to any owner.

462
00:34:20,947 --> 00:34:21,947
Is there,

463
00:34:21,947 --> 00:34:24,947
so I want to start to touch on why people are so resistant.

464
00:34:24,947 --> 00:34:28,947
That there's the first thing that comes to mind is yet.

465
00:34:28,947 --> 00:34:30,947
Is there a tax surface of,

466
00:34:30,947 --> 00:34:34,947
I send my BTC to Bitmonero or whatever,

467
00:34:34,947 --> 00:34:35,947
some,

468
00:34:35,947 --> 00:34:40,947
some sidechain it's faulty or does something foul.

469
00:34:40,947 --> 00:34:45,947
How can Bitcoin disappear in this model where it goes to a sidechain?

470
00:34:45,947 --> 00:34:46,947
It is something ridiculous.

471
00:34:46,947 --> 00:34:47,947
And it never comes back.

472
00:34:47,947 --> 00:34:48,947
What actually happened is the,

473
00:34:48,947 --> 00:34:51,947
the side of the coins would reach a state.

474
00:34:51,947 --> 00:34:52,947
They would go into a sidechain,

475
00:34:52,947 --> 00:34:53,947
like number three,

476
00:34:53,947 --> 00:34:55,947
which is a Monero sidechain or something.

477
00:34:55,947 --> 00:35:00,947
And then no one would be able to actually tell who the layer one owners

478
00:35:00,947 --> 00:35:01,947
are.

479
00:35:01,947 --> 00:35:03,947
That's possible.

480
00:35:03,947 --> 00:35:04,947
But the thing is,

481
00:35:04,947 --> 00:35:06,947
I think that is part of the pushback,

482
00:35:06,947 --> 00:35:07,947
even though it's not rational,

483
00:35:07,947 --> 00:35:11,947
because the freedom to make mistakes is really the whole point.

484
00:35:12,947 --> 00:35:13,947
The,

485
00:35:13,947 --> 00:35:15,947
the person where we're by definition,

486
00:35:15,947 --> 00:35:16,947
like I was saying,

487
00:35:16,947 --> 00:35:21,947
we're giving the lead developer of that or the lead designer or whatever

488
00:35:21,947 --> 00:35:24,947
you want to call them of that second chain.

489
00:35:24,947 --> 00:35:28,947
We're giving them the freedom and responsibility that they need to,

490
00:35:28,947 --> 00:35:31,947
to do whatever they want over there.

491
00:35:31,947 --> 00:35:34,947
And so if they make a mistake,

492
00:35:34,947 --> 00:35:35,947
that's,

493
00:35:35,947 --> 00:35:36,947
you know,

494
00:35:36,947 --> 00:35:37,947
that's on them.

495
00:35:37,947 --> 00:35:38,947
That has nothing to do with the BIP300.

496
00:35:38,947 --> 00:35:39,947
You know what I mean?

497
00:35:39,947 --> 00:35:40,947
It's kind of like a,

498
00:35:40,947 --> 00:35:43,947
an airport or like a teleporter lets you travel wherever you like.

499
00:35:43,947 --> 00:35:44,947
And then someone says,

500
00:35:44,947 --> 00:35:45,947
well,

501
00:35:45,947 --> 00:35:47,947
what if I travel to Somalia and I get my head cut off or something?

502
00:35:47,947 --> 00:35:48,947
It's like,

503
00:35:48,947 --> 00:35:49,947
well,

504
00:35:49,947 --> 00:35:50,947
that's not the airport's fault.

505
00:35:50,947 --> 00:35:51,947
Like airport had nothing to do with that.

506
00:35:51,947 --> 00:35:52,947
That was your decision.

507
00:35:52,947 --> 00:35:53,947
And,

508
00:35:53,947 --> 00:35:57,947
and it's denying us the opportunity to take the plane to an even cooler

509
00:35:57,947 --> 00:35:59,947
place than we are now.

510
00:35:59,947 --> 00:36:03,947
But I think you're right that that is part of the aversion because right

511
00:36:03,947 --> 00:36:06,947
now the current group of Bitcoin core developers,

512
00:36:06,947 --> 00:36:07,947
I think feel,

513
00:36:07,947 --> 00:36:11,947
take responsibility and feel responsible for people not losing their coins.

514
00:36:11,947 --> 00:36:13,947
And they think if they endorse this,

515
00:36:13,947 --> 00:36:15,947
it's opening Pandora's box.

516
00:36:15,947 --> 00:36:16,947
And then there'll be,

517
00:36:16,947 --> 00:36:20,947
someone will send their coins to idiot chain number 78,

518
00:36:20,947 --> 00:36:24,947
and then they'll complain about it and they'll feel they'll get blamed.

519
00:36:24,947 --> 00:36:27,947
And then they won't get a cool tech job or something.

520
00:36:27,947 --> 00:36:28,947
Cause they'll,

521
00:36:28,947 --> 00:36:32,947
there will be a bad Google search results or something.

522
00:36:32,947 --> 00:36:34,947
Got it.

523
00:36:34,947 --> 00:36:35,947
That makes sense.

524
00:36:35,947 --> 00:36:36,947
I mean,

525
00:36:36,947 --> 00:36:37,947
that,

526
00:36:37,947 --> 00:36:42,947
that seems to dovetail into why people are so focused on shit coins.

527
00:36:42,947 --> 00:36:44,947
Like the ICO craze was obviously a bunch of scams.

528
00:36:44,947 --> 00:36:50,947
Some things rose to the top and now Bitcoin core in some sense,

529
00:36:50,947 --> 00:36:55,947
or the people in like the kind of like middle sphere now have adopted the

530
00:36:55,947 --> 00:36:56,947
sense of like,

531
00:36:56,947 --> 00:36:58,947
I have to be a defender,

532
00:36:58,947 --> 00:36:59,947
a white knight in some sense.

533
00:36:59,947 --> 00:37:00,947
Yeah.

534
00:37:00,947 --> 00:37:04,947
I think a lot of it is also cognitive dissonance where they look and they

535
00:37:04,947 --> 00:37:06,947
see whatever Charles Hoskinson,

536
00:37:06,947 --> 00:37:09,947
we get billions of our Dan Larimer get billions of dollars.

537
00:37:09,947 --> 00:37:15,947
And so their brain decides that their brain decides that there are,

538
00:37:15,947 --> 00:37:16,947
there's just super,

539
00:37:16,947 --> 00:37:19,947
super evil and that those people are super evil and they're just really,

540
00:37:19,947 --> 00:37:20,947
really great.

541
00:37:20,947 --> 00:37:24,947
And so not getting lots of money is the most important thing in the world.

542
00:37:24,947 --> 00:37:26,947
It's more important than having $4 billion.

543
00:37:26,947 --> 00:37:27,947
My,

544
00:37:27,947 --> 00:37:31,947
my reputation as a non chip coiner is worth $4.1 billion or something.

545
00:37:32,947 --> 00:37:35,947
So I think that it is just a psychological defect.

546
00:37:35,947 --> 00:37:39,947
None of this would have happened if people took my advice and just back

547
00:37:39,947 --> 00:37:41,947
sidechains from the beginning in like 2015.

548
00:37:41,947 --> 00:37:43,947
So the lack of sidechains,

549
00:37:43,947 --> 00:37:45,947
I think is the biggest setback in Bitcoin history.

550
00:37:45,947 --> 00:37:46,947
There would never have been,

551
00:37:46,947 --> 00:37:48,947
there probably would never have even been an Ethereum.

552
00:37:48,947 --> 00:37:52,947
There probably would never have been even the blockchain without Bitcoin.

553
00:37:52,947 --> 00:37:55,947
I don't think that would have happened because people would have been doing

554
00:37:55,947 --> 00:37:56,947
productive things.

555
00:37:56,947 --> 00:37:57,947
And so it would have been very obvious,

556
00:37:58,947 --> 00:38:02,947
like what kind of stuff the blockchain is for and what it's not for.

557
00:38:03,947 --> 00:38:08,947
So I think that the whole lack of sidechains is like by far the only

558
00:38:09,947 --> 00:38:14,947
important thing that anyone should know about the history of Bitcoin in the

559
00:38:14,947 --> 00:38:15,947
last seven years.

560
00:38:16,947 --> 00:38:17,947
Got it.

561
00:38:19,947 --> 00:38:20,947
You don't think,

562
00:38:21,947 --> 00:38:25,947
because people talk about how Bitcoin Bitcoin is money.

563
00:38:25,947 --> 00:38:26,947
Like that's,

564
00:38:26,947 --> 00:38:27,947
it's stated goal.

565
00:38:27,947 --> 00:38:28,947
It's all it's optimized for.

566
00:38:29,947 --> 00:38:32,947
You don't think if you,

567
00:38:32,947 --> 00:38:33,947
if it was adopted back then,

568
00:38:33,947 --> 00:38:36,947
Bitcoin would change irreversibly.

569
00:38:36,947 --> 00:38:39,947
I think that's another fear that people have is that once you bring it that

570
00:38:39,947 --> 00:38:40,947
close to Bitcoin,

571
00:38:41,947 --> 00:38:43,947
the narrative changes irreversibly forever.

572
00:38:44,947 --> 00:38:45,947
Bring what close to Bitcoin?

573
00:38:47,947 --> 00:38:52,947
The ability to attach sidechains in this easy fashion,

574
00:38:53,947 --> 00:38:54,947
muddies the brand.

575
00:38:54,947 --> 00:38:56,947
The narrative would have improved.

576
00:38:57,947 --> 00:38:58,947
layer one would have been like,

577
00:38:58,947 --> 00:39:01,947
this is the conservative zone where nothing changes.

578
00:39:02,947 --> 00:39:05,947
And this is like the ultra conservative bank and all the other stuff would have

579
00:39:05,947 --> 00:39:07,947
been optional stuff.

580
00:39:07,947 --> 00:39:08,947
And they would have a,

581
00:39:08,947 --> 00:39:11,947
people would go on stage and they would say like the,

582
00:39:11,947 --> 00:39:13,947
the people who are today toxic,

583
00:39:13,947 --> 00:39:15,947
this is if they would have jobs at all,

584
00:39:16,947 --> 00:39:19,947
which is doubtful because the sidechain is also a firewall.

585
00:39:19,947 --> 00:39:21,947
It protects the projects from each other.

586
00:39:22,947 --> 00:39:25,947
So they have their own zone and we don't tell them what to do over on their

587
00:39:25,947 --> 00:39:26,947
restaurant,

588
00:39:26,947 --> 00:39:27,947
but they don't tell us what to do.

589
00:39:28,947 --> 00:39:29,947
And then in layer one,

590
00:39:29,947 --> 00:39:31,947
no one tells anyone what to do because basically nothing happens.

591
00:39:32,947 --> 00:39:34,947
So the sidechains also firewall everything.

592
00:39:34,947 --> 00:39:39,947
And so there's no need to have people try and prevent Bitcoin from changing

593
00:39:39,947 --> 00:39:40,947
because it would already never change it.

594
00:39:41,947 --> 00:39:42,947
The layer one would never change again.

595
00:39:43,947 --> 00:39:45,947
So a lot of these people would be out of a job,

596
00:39:45,947 --> 00:39:47,947
which is ironic because those people also criticize,

597
00:39:47,947 --> 00:39:50,947
they say the only reason this altcoin person is shilling is because they want,

598
00:39:51,947 --> 00:39:52,947
they want a job out of that.

599
00:39:52,947 --> 00:39:53,947
So that's an irony,

600
00:39:53,947 --> 00:39:54,947
but the,

601
00:39:55,947 --> 00:39:56,947
those people,

602
00:39:56,947 --> 00:39:57,947
if they still had jobs,

603
00:39:57,947 --> 00:39:58,947
they would go up on stage and they would say,

604
00:39:58,947 --> 00:39:59,947
listen,

605
00:39:59,947 --> 00:40:00,947
Bitcoin's great.

606
00:40:00,947 --> 00:40:01,947
We got this,

607
00:40:01,947 --> 00:40:02,947
we got Bitcoin beach,

608
00:40:02,947 --> 00:40:03,947
we got El Salvador.

609
00:40:03,947 --> 00:40:04,947
And they'd say,

610
00:40:04,947 --> 00:40:05,947
we got this,

611
00:40:05,947 --> 00:40:06,947
we got this genius kid,

612
00:40:06,947 --> 00:40:07,947
a Vitalik.

613
00:40:07,947 --> 00:40:09,947
He's doing a smart contracts on Bitcoin,

614
00:40:09,947 --> 00:40:10,947
which goes back to Nick Zabo.

615
00:40:11,947 --> 00:40:13,947
They would like the whole tune would be different.

616
00:40:13,947 --> 00:40:14,947
And it would all just be,

617
00:40:14,947 --> 00:40:15,947
it would be including all this.

618
00:40:15,947 --> 00:40:16,947
It would be,

619
00:40:16,947 --> 00:40:17,947
there'd be no fighting over Jeremy Rubin.

620
00:40:17,947 --> 00:40:19,947
There'd be no fighting over whatever,

621
00:40:19,947 --> 00:40:20,947
trying to complete zk-SNARKs,

622
00:40:20,947 --> 00:40:21,947
all that stuff.

623
00:40:22,947 --> 00:40:25,947
Bitcorners wouldn't have to pretend that they're not impressed with zk-SNARKs

624
00:40:25,947 --> 00:40:26,947
right now,

625
00:40:26,947 --> 00:40:27,947
even though they were for until,

626
00:40:27,947 --> 00:40:28,947
until Zcash,

627
00:40:28,947 --> 00:40:29,947
they were very,

628
00:40:29,947 --> 00:40:30,947
very impressed and excited about them.

629
00:40:30,947 --> 00:40:32,947
And then until Zcash became a thing and then they,

630
00:40:32,947 --> 00:40:33,947
now they hate them.

631
00:40:34,947 --> 00:40:35,947
And then,

632
00:40:35,947 --> 00:40:38,947
so the whole thing is all of it is just cope and none of that would have to

633
00:40:38,947 --> 00:40:39,947
happen.

634
00:40:39,947 --> 00:40:40,947
If we had sidechains,

635
00:40:40,947 --> 00:40:41,947
the whole time,

636
00:40:41,947 --> 00:40:42,947
but the question was,

637
00:40:42,947 --> 00:40:43,947
if we had moved it in the past,

638
00:40:43,947 --> 00:40:46,947
it would change the Bitcoin's narrative away from being money.

639
00:40:46,947 --> 00:40:48,947
And I think no one would doubt that,

640
00:40:48,947 --> 00:40:50,947
that the coin itself would be money at all.

641
00:40:50,947 --> 00:40:51,947
They would say that,

642
00:40:51,947 --> 00:40:53,947
but there's different pieces of software.

643
00:40:53,947 --> 00:40:54,947
So you see,

644
00:40:54,947 --> 00:40:56,947
just as there's different alt coins today,

645
00:40:56,947 --> 00:40:57,947
there'll be different sidechains.

646
00:40:57,947 --> 00:40:58,947
And they'd be very different.

647
00:40:58,947 --> 00:40:59,947
It'd be as different as,

648
00:40:59,947 --> 00:41:00,947
you know,

649
00:41:00,947 --> 00:41:01,947
PowerPoint is from,

650
00:41:01,947 --> 00:41:02,947
from Microsoft word.

651
00:41:02,947 --> 00:41:03,947
It'd be as different as,

652
00:41:03,947 --> 00:41:04,947
you know,

653
00:41:04,947 --> 00:41:05,947
PowerPoint is from,

654
00:41:05,947 --> 00:41:06,947
from Microsoft word.

655
00:41:06,947 --> 00:41:07,947
And then someone would say like,

656
00:41:07,947 --> 00:41:08,947
you know,

657
00:41:08,947 --> 00:41:09,947
is Bitcoin money.

658
00:41:09,947 --> 00:41:10,947
Of course it is.

659
00:41:10,947 --> 00:41:11,947
The more,

660
00:41:11,947 --> 00:41:12,947
the more things,

661
00:41:12,947 --> 00:41:13,947
the more places where it's used.

662
00:41:13,947 --> 00:41:14,947
It's like,

663
00:41:14,947 --> 00:41:15,947
we use money in all kinds of ways.

664
00:41:15,947 --> 00:41:16,947
You know,

665
00:41:16,947 --> 00:41:17,947
we don't,

666
00:41:17,947 --> 00:41:18,947
you buy a casino chips,

667
00:41:18,947 --> 00:41:19,947
you buy money market.

668
00:41:19,947 --> 00:41:20,947
Accounts,

669
00:41:20,947 --> 00:41:21,947
you know,

670
00:41:21,947 --> 00:41:22,947
it's your cash.

671
00:41:22,947 --> 00:41:23,947
You have an ATM.

672
00:41:23,947 --> 00:41:25,947
So it was like people invented an ATM is a good example.

673
00:41:25,947 --> 00:41:26,947
Cause they exchange at par.

674
00:41:26,947 --> 00:41:28,947
You put $20 in and you put $20 in,

675
00:41:28,947 --> 00:41:36,947
and you put $20 in,

676
00:41:36,947 --> 00:41:38,947
and you get $20 in your checking account.

677
00:41:38,947 --> 00:41:40,947
Or you take $20 out of the checking account

678
00:41:40,947 --> 00:41:42,947
and you get a $20 bill.

679
00:41:42,947 --> 00:41:43,947
So that's like the sidechain,

680
00:41:43,947 --> 00:41:44,947
the exchange at par,

681
00:41:44,947 --> 00:41:46,947
a one-to-one value,

682
00:41:46,947 --> 00:41:50,947
the so-called one-to-one pay.

683
00:41:50,947 --> 00:41:52,947
So that's a very good example.

684
00:41:52,947 --> 00:41:54,947
So then if someone could come along

685
00:41:54,947 --> 00:41:56,947
and they say is a credit card money,

686
00:41:56,947 --> 00:41:57,947
is a whatever,

687
00:41:57,947 --> 00:41:59,947
is the checking account money.

688
00:41:59,947 --> 00:42:02,947
And you'd see how silly those questions would be.

689
00:42:02,947 --> 00:42:03,947
People are like,

690
00:42:03,947 --> 00:42:04,947
why are you even asking?

691
00:42:04,947 --> 00:42:06,947
No, that makes sense.

692
00:42:06,947 --> 00:42:09,947
I can see how if this was adopted,

693
00:42:09,947 --> 00:42:10,947
Bitcoin would be,

694
00:42:10,947 --> 00:42:13,947
I can almost see hyper-Bitcoinization happening faster

695
00:42:13,947 --> 00:42:14,947
because it's more,

696
00:42:14,947 --> 00:42:17,947
you're closer to interoperability,

697
00:42:17,947 --> 00:42:18,947
like this widespread.

698
00:42:18,947 --> 00:42:19,947
Absolutely.

699
00:42:19,947 --> 00:42:20,947
And of course,

700
00:42:20,947 --> 00:42:21,947
most people have very different needs.

701
00:42:21,947 --> 00:42:22,947
So people are very different.

702
00:42:22,947 --> 00:42:24,947
Some people really need the Zcash sidechain

703
00:42:24,947 --> 00:42:26,947
because they're like very,

704
00:42:26,947 --> 00:42:30,947
very, very privacy-centered people

705
00:42:30,947 --> 00:42:32,947
with who knows what they're up to.

706
00:42:32,947 --> 00:42:33,947
But we know there's quite a few things

707
00:42:33,947 --> 00:42:35,947
where people would prefer a greater privacy.

708
00:42:35,947 --> 00:42:37,947
Some people don't need that at all.

709
00:42:37,947 --> 00:42:39,947
And some people don't need decentralization

710
00:42:39,947 --> 00:42:40,947
very much at all.

711
00:42:40,947 --> 00:42:42,947
So like if you're just buying the coffee

712
00:42:42,947 --> 00:42:44,947
or you're just,

713
00:42:44,947 --> 00:42:46,947
people have different accounts too.

714
00:42:46,947 --> 00:42:47,947
Like you have,

715
00:42:47,947 --> 00:42:50,947
you have like the cash you walk around with

716
00:42:50,947 --> 00:42:51,947
in your wallet.

717
00:42:51,947 --> 00:42:53,947
You know that you might lose your wallet any day.

718
00:42:53,947 --> 00:42:56,947
So you don't keep your life savings in your wallet.

719
00:42:56,947 --> 00:42:57,947
You keep like whatever,

720
00:42:57,947 --> 00:42:59,947
like a hundred bucks or something

721
00:42:59,947 --> 00:43:01,947
in your wallet and cash.

722
00:43:01,947 --> 00:43:03,947
And then you have different accounts.

723
00:43:03,947 --> 00:43:05,947
So people have different needs.

724
00:43:05,947 --> 00:43:07,947
Not every transaction needs,

725
00:43:07,947 --> 00:43:09,947
but we want them all to be Bitcoin transactions.

726
00:43:09,947 --> 00:43:12,947
So we don't want there to be a Venmo transaction

727
00:43:12,947 --> 00:43:13,947
or a credit card transaction out there.

728
00:43:13,947 --> 00:43:14,947
We want to,

729
00:43:14,947 --> 00:43:15,947
we have to crush everything.

730
00:43:15,947 --> 00:43:17,947
And if we have to make like a large block sidechain

731
00:43:17,947 --> 00:43:22,947
to gobble up the Venmo transactions,

732
00:43:22,947 --> 00:43:23,947
well,

733
00:43:23,947 --> 00:43:24,947
let me ask you this.

734
00:43:24,947 --> 00:43:25,947
This is an easy question.

735
00:43:25,947 --> 00:43:29,947
Is it better that we have large block Bitcoin sidechain

736
00:43:29,947 --> 00:43:32,947
that is less decentralized because it is,

737
00:43:32,947 --> 00:43:36,947
has a larger block size and has more expensive full nodes.

738
00:43:36,947 --> 00:43:41,947
And it also has the handicap that it is not the layer one,

739
00:43:41,947 --> 00:43:43,947
but it's an optional layer two.

740
00:43:43,947 --> 00:43:44,947
It's a BIP300 sidechain.

741
00:43:44,947 --> 00:43:45,947
So it's,

742
00:43:45,947 --> 00:43:48,947
it's subject to extra assumptions.

743
00:43:48,947 --> 00:43:53,947
But it uses actual Bitcoin

744
00:43:53,947 --> 00:43:55,947
and it has actual people with their keys.

745
00:43:55,947 --> 00:43:56,947
Is that,

746
00:43:57,947 --> 00:44:01,947
is that better for Bitcoin or is it better for that person to use Venmo and

747
00:44:01,947 --> 00:44:03,947
to use the US dollar and to never use Bitcoin?

748
00:44:03,947 --> 00:44:05,947
Like which of those is better for Bitcoin?

749
00:44:05,947 --> 00:44:06,947
Yeah.

750
00:44:06,947 --> 00:44:08,947
That's when you say it like that,

751
00:44:08,947 --> 00:44:09,947
it seems like a no brainer.

752
00:44:11,947 --> 00:44:12,947
I love.

753
00:44:12,947 --> 00:44:13,947
So I want to,

754
00:44:13,947 --> 00:44:14,947
I want to start.

755
00:44:14,947 --> 00:44:15,947
Wow.

756
00:44:15,947 --> 00:44:16,947
We're going,

757
00:44:16,947 --> 00:44:17,947
I usually go for a half hour.

758
00:44:17,947 --> 00:44:18,947
We're cruising for this interview.

759
00:44:18,947 --> 00:44:19,947
So this is fine.

760
00:44:19,947 --> 00:44:20,947
There's a lot to cover.

761
00:44:20,947 --> 00:44:22,947
I got a couple more questions.

762
00:44:22,947 --> 00:44:24,947
I once did a clubhouse interview for nine hours.

763
00:44:24,947 --> 00:44:25,947
No,

764
00:44:25,947 --> 00:44:26,947
what the hell?

765
00:44:26,947 --> 00:44:28,947
It started at 9 PM and it went until 6 AM.

766
00:44:28,947 --> 00:44:30,947
Talking about Bitcoin?

767
00:44:30,947 --> 00:44:31,947
Yeah,

768
00:44:31,947 --> 00:44:32,947
of course.

769
00:44:32,947 --> 00:44:33,947
That's,

770
00:44:33,947 --> 00:44:34,947
that's insane.

771
00:44:34,947 --> 00:44:35,947
I'm curious now.

772
00:44:35,947 --> 00:44:37,947
So if someone's bought in,

773
00:44:37,947 --> 00:44:39,947
they like the idea of everything they just heard,

774
00:44:39,947 --> 00:44:42,947
what is the biggest blockers to get,

775
00:44:42,947 --> 00:44:45,947
to start to get the ball rolling on BIP300?

776
00:44:45,947 --> 00:44:47,947
What has to change to get it over the line?

777
00:44:47,947 --> 00:44:48,947
Well,

778
00:44:48,947 --> 00:44:51,947
unfortunately I think the entire culture is in like in a bad place.

779
00:44:51,947 --> 00:44:52,947
Honestly,

780
00:44:52,947 --> 00:44:54,947
I see like people like Udi or whatever,

781
00:44:54,947 --> 00:44:58,947
it's like kind of like the saviors as trying to bring it back to life.

782
00:44:58,947 --> 00:45:00,947
This is kind of hard to express though,

783
00:45:00,947 --> 00:45:02,947
because the,

784
00:45:02,947 --> 00:45:03,947
the,

785
00:45:03,947 --> 00:45:06,947
what happened was we won the block size war.

786
00:45:06,947 --> 00:45:07,947
And as a result,

787
00:45:07,947 --> 00:45:09,947
people concluded that not only,

788
00:45:09,947 --> 00:45:11,947
which was an easy win,

789
00:45:11,947 --> 00:45:13,947
but I could go into the details,

790
00:45:13,947 --> 00:45:16,947
but the point is the more conservative side won.

791
00:45:16,947 --> 00:45:17,947
And as a result,

792
00:45:17,947 --> 00:45:22,947
it became very flaky to suggest any change to Bitcoin at all.

793
00:45:22,947 --> 00:45:26,947
Also the miners took the other side and lost.

794
00:45:26,947 --> 00:45:27,947
And so as a result,

795
00:45:27,947 --> 00:45:28,947
BIP300,

796
00:45:28,947 --> 00:45:32,947
which uses miners instead of a fixed group of keys or a fixed number of

797
00:45:32,947 --> 00:45:33,947
people,

798
00:45:33,947 --> 00:45:35,947
which people,

799
00:45:35,947 --> 00:45:36,947
you know,

800
00:45:36,947 --> 00:45:40,947
there's no way of knowing if who owns which keys in the real world.

801
00:45:40,947 --> 00:45:43,947
So this is really just like basically giving your money to one guy in the

802
00:45:43,947 --> 00:45:44,947
federated model.

803
00:45:45,947 --> 00:45:46,947
But as far as anyone could tell,

804
00:45:46,947 --> 00:45:49,947
but instead this is a process that involved the miners,

805
00:45:49,947 --> 00:45:50,947
BIP300,

806
00:45:50,947 --> 00:45:52,947
because the SPV proof is hash rate.

807
00:45:52,947 --> 00:45:54,947
So as a result,

808
00:45:54,947 --> 00:45:56,947
anything involving the miners became like,

809
00:45:56,947 --> 00:45:59,947
just like too awkward for people to even talk about it.

810
00:45:59,947 --> 00:46:00,947
It became very stigmatized.

811
00:46:00,947 --> 00:46:02,947
And this has just continued for a while.

812
00:46:02,947 --> 00:46:03,947
But after,

813
00:46:03,947 --> 00:46:05,947
as the years roll by,

814
00:46:05,947 --> 00:46:08,947
people are finally coming around on this issue.

815
00:46:08,947 --> 00:46:09,947
So I,

816
00:46:09,947 --> 00:46:11,947
what I used to tell people about BIP300 is,

817
00:46:11,947 --> 00:46:12,947
you know,

818
00:46:13,947 --> 00:46:15,947
just read about it,

819
00:46:15,947 --> 00:46:17,947
learn about the issues.

820
00:46:17,947 --> 00:46:21,947
I have a big like YouTube series and just,

821
00:46:21,947 --> 00:46:22,947
you know,

822
00:46:22,947 --> 00:46:23,947
like try and just talk,

823
00:46:23,947 --> 00:46:25,947
talk about it with your friends,

824
00:46:25,947 --> 00:46:26,947
bring it up and just,

825
00:46:26,947 --> 00:46:29,947
just get the idea into the Overton window.

826
00:46:29,947 --> 00:46:33,947
And I still think that that's really what is needed is for more people to

827
00:46:33,947 --> 00:46:34,947
just like,

828
00:46:34,947 --> 00:46:38,947
you can't wait for me to talk about it because the other thing is the

829
00:46:38,947 --> 00:46:41,947
process for getting something through Bitcoin core is actually very

830
00:46:41,947 --> 00:46:42,947
miserable.

831
00:46:42,947 --> 00:46:46,947
And I don't see in particular why I should be responsible for doing it.

832
00:46:46,947 --> 00:46:47,947
You know what I mean?

833
00:46:47,947 --> 00:46:48,947
Like I invented this idea.

834
00:46:48,947 --> 00:46:50,947
I wrote the code.

835
00:46:50,947 --> 00:46:53,947
I wrote all these explanations and then people are like,

836
00:46:53,947 --> 00:46:54,947
okay,

837
00:46:54,947 --> 00:46:55,947
now all you have to do is,

838
00:46:55,947 --> 00:46:58,947
all you have to do is hike to the top of Mount Everest and then like

839
00:46:58,947 --> 00:47:00,947
cast a spell or something.

840
00:47:00,947 --> 00:47:01,947
I'm like,

841
00:47:01,947 --> 00:47:03,947
I don't know if someone else can hike to the top of Mount Everest.

842
00:47:03,947 --> 00:47:04,947
Like I'm,

843
00:47:04,947 --> 00:47:05,947
this is a good idea,

844
00:47:06,947 --> 00:47:07,947
but I don't,

845
00:47:09,947 --> 00:47:11,947
but there's more to it than that.

846
00:47:11,947 --> 00:47:15,947
The other bad news is that it may not even be possible anymore because the

847
00:47:15,947 --> 00:47:23,947
entire Bitcoin development cycle has ossified already,

848
00:47:23,947 --> 00:47:25,947
whether anyone wants to or not.

849
00:47:25,947 --> 00:47:26,947
And it used to be,

850
00:47:26,947 --> 00:47:28,947
there used to be many soft forks a year,

851
00:47:28,947 --> 00:47:30,947
like a long time ago,

852
00:47:30,947 --> 00:47:31,947
like 2015.

853
00:47:32,947 --> 00:47:33,947
But now after,

854
00:47:33,947 --> 00:47:35,947
since then there was only SegWit,

855
00:47:35,947 --> 00:47:39,947
which took from like basically the end of 2015,

856
00:47:39,947 --> 00:47:40,947
which was kind of like,

857
00:47:40,947 --> 00:47:47,947
it was decided on via the scaling to conference.

858
00:47:47,947 --> 00:47:49,947
Then they worked on it until scaling three,

859
00:47:49,947 --> 00:47:51,947
which was not until October,

860
00:47:51,947 --> 00:47:52,947
2016,

861
00:47:52,947 --> 00:47:54,947
2016.

862
00:47:54,947 --> 00:47:55,947
Excuse me.

863
00:47:55,947 --> 00:47:58,947
And then it didn't activate until August,

864
00:47:58,947 --> 00:47:59,947
2017,

865
00:47:59,947 --> 00:48:00,947
as you know.

866
00:48:00,947 --> 00:48:05,947
So that took a while since then there's only been taproot,

867
00:48:05,947 --> 00:48:06,947
which was November,

868
00:48:06,947 --> 00:48:07,947
2021.

869
00:48:07,947 --> 00:48:11,947
So that's basically another five years.

870
00:48:11,947 --> 00:48:15,947
And now people are not,

871
00:48:15,947 --> 00:48:18,947
people are just not in the mood for this type of discussion.

872
00:48:18,947 --> 00:48:19,947
Like even the taproot thing,

873
00:48:19,947 --> 00:48:25,947
it was miserable to get people to even begin to talk about activation.

874
00:48:25,947 --> 00:48:29,947
And so the whole thing has become a minefield.

875
00:48:29,947 --> 00:48:31,947
And as a result,

876
00:48:31,947 --> 00:48:32,947
I think it's just,

877
00:48:32,947 --> 00:48:34,947
you can see it getting slower and slower each time.

878
00:48:34,947 --> 00:48:37,947
So I don't know exactly what it will take,

879
00:48:37,947 --> 00:48:39,947
but it may not even be possible,

880
00:48:39,947 --> 00:48:41,947
which is kind of a shocking idea.

881
00:48:41,947 --> 00:48:44,947
So it sounds like it definitely won't be possible.

882
00:48:44,947 --> 00:48:45,947
People don't talk about it ever.

883
00:48:45,947 --> 00:48:48,947
And no one knows about the idea or people know mistaken things about the

884
00:48:48,947 --> 00:48:49,947
idea for a while.

885
00:48:49,947 --> 00:48:50,947
The idea would give various criticisms,

886
00:48:50,947 --> 00:48:54,947
but now the critics I think have been kind of shouted down and they are

887
00:48:55,947 --> 00:48:59,947
now not speaking anymore or they have changed their tune.

888
00:48:59,947 --> 00:49:02,947
So we finally won them over a lot of them, but still,

889
00:49:02,947 --> 00:49:06,947
I think there are a lot of misunderstandings persist.

890
00:49:06,947 --> 00:49:11,947
These are mostly related to the idea of responsibility that the user

891
00:49:12,947 --> 00:49:13,947
should be.

892
00:49:13,947 --> 00:49:15,947
You should be able to get on the airplane and go wherever you want,

893
00:49:15,947 --> 00:49:16,947
even if it's an unsafe,

894
00:49:16,947 --> 00:49:19,947
even if it's a place that some guy thinks is unsafe,

895
00:49:19,947 --> 00:49:20,947
like Peter Todd thinks is unsafe.

896
00:49:21,947 --> 00:49:23,947
Well, you can listen to him and decide for yourself.

897
00:49:23,947 --> 00:49:29,947
He shouldn't be able to force you forcibly prohibit you from,

898
00:49:29,947 --> 00:49:32,947
from choosing to go there, even after you read everything.

899
00:49:32,947 --> 00:49:33,947
And certainly not, you know,

900
00:49:33,947 --> 00:49:37,947
you have a hundred percent of your net worth and you want to put 0.1%,

901
00:49:37,947 --> 00:49:38,947
you want to try something out.

902
00:49:40,947 --> 00:49:43,947
You can see how that's much more reasonable.

903
00:49:43,947 --> 00:49:45,947
And that is of course what people would do at first.

904
00:49:45,947 --> 00:49:48,947
No one is going to just board all that.

905
00:49:48,947 --> 00:49:50,947
I think another thing that's happened though,

906
00:49:50,947 --> 00:49:52,947
is that the light as the lightning network gets big,

907
00:49:52,947 --> 00:49:55,947
a certain counter-attack because the.

908
00:49:57,075 --> 00:50:14,075
BIP300 was often criticized on the basis that 51% of the miners can steal the money
over three to six months and in plain view of everyone, but with the lightning
network, 51% of the hashrate can also steal money from a channel, like secretly and
in private and without anyone knowing about it with far less recourse.

909
00:50:14,075 --> 00:50:42,075
So that fact, the fact that the lightning network has exists and that isn't a
problem, I think cuts against that whole evil miners explanation, which is, which
has its origins from politically in the block size war and is not actually based on
people's beliefs because of course, 51% of miners, if they were evil, they would
steal the money.

910
00:50:42,075 --> 00:51:01,075
Miners, if they were evil, they could make all kinds of havoc on the regular main
chain as well. So the idea was never rational. It was always just that no one, the
Bitcoin development community had a very contentious relationship with the miners
because of the block size war.

911
00:51:01,075 --> 00:51:26,075
So it sounds like there's three main groups in this kind of triangle. There's
Bitcoin users proper, which we'll call like the culture. And then there's Bitcoin
core that can submit and push through code. And then there's the miners. And so
you're saying the biggest variable by far is the culture, which the core devs kind
of follow. Do you think that's accurate?

912
00:51:26,075 --> 00:51:42,075
I think the core devs are also victims of the culture in a way. But there's the
idea, there's an idea that like Bitcoin is already perfect and doesn't need any more
changes and its success is inevitable. That idea has become very popular, as you
probably know.

913
00:51:42,075 --> 00:52:01,075
So there's a lot of people who just say that the project is pointless because they
say Bitcoin is already perfect. You just need to get on board. And no one needs any
of these sidechains because 21 million is the thing and just number go up. And so
we don't need anything.

914
00:52:01,075 --> 00:52:18,075
There's a lot of strength in that argument, but I think it's just not good enough
because in particular, one of the things sidechains do is they allow you to ossify
layer one forever and to make that promise in a way that is credible.

915
00:52:18,075 --> 00:52:36,075
Because before you just say, listen, we're never going to change it. But then we did
change it because SegWit was a mandatory block size increase from one to four
megabytes. So it was a soft fork in the sense of being backwards compatible, but it
was a hard fork in the sense of loosening the rules.

916
00:52:36,075 --> 00:52:57,075
Or what used to be called an evil fork, because there's a mandatory block size
increase from one megabyte to four megabytes. And it also introduced a perverse
incentive where transactions take up more space, but they're charged a lower fee. In
particular, the P2SH SegWit, which were much bigger and charged much less.

917
00:52:58,075 --> 00:53:17,075
So we already made it worse, basically. And then, of course, this new trend of we
have more and more address formats. And then the batch 32 is broken. So we'd have
batch 32M. And eventually, we're going to have one address format per person on the
planet Earth. And it's like torture, I think.

918
00:53:17,075 --> 00:53:41,075
So even if you're this conservative person who thinks that none of it should change,
you've still already been betrayed. And you would want to look for something that
would wall everything off, which sidechains would also do. SegWit 300 would also do.
It'd be that one change you would make, and then you would never have to change
anything again. And so that also would be great.

919
00:53:42,075 --> 00:54:09,075
Hmm. Yeah, I find this super, super fascinating. I'm curious. So I like to end on
kind of a forward looking high note. So in this scenario, I'm imagining BIP300 gets
adopted. And let's look at three to five years out, which is like 70 in crypto time.
What does Bitcoin look like, if that was the reality in five years?

920
00:54:10,075 --> 00:54:32,075
Well, it depends. But I think the big thing would be the toxicity would be over,
actually, because there would be no need for these people to block changes, because
the sidechain world would already be blocking the changes, they would already be
like, walled off. So there's no need for the defenders of Bitcoin. So they would
already be defended perfectly. And so people would instead be building new things.

921
00:54:33,075 --> 00:54:49,075
Another key thing would be like, you wouldn't have to, there would be less
bureaucracy, because you wouldn't have to defend your idea to anyone except the
customers. So you wouldn't have to explain like how it works or why it works.
Someone could just have an idea. They would just make the sidechain.

922
00:54:50,075 --> 00:55:05,075
I think, you know, the idea behind, I think we would, it's too late now to, there
used to be a vision that sidechains would just kill off the competitors. But now I
think we will have what's kind of like a two party system for a while, where we'll
have like Bitcoin and ETH.

923
00:55:05,075 --> 00:55:32,075
But I do think that all the other ones would be stomped out. I don't know why you
would still have other coins. And they would be, there would be no, it would be,
we'd have like a kind of a bid assets NFT thing, sidechain in the Bitcoin world, so
that those would still live there, but they would live in a way where it was clear
what their status was as they're not money, they're sort of second class citizens.

924
00:55:32,075 --> 00:55:54,075
You pay for them with Bitcoin, you pay the transaction fee in Bitcoin. So we'd have
all that, we'd have lots of different projects, there'd be lots of, it'd be possible
for someone new, like a random 16 year old that no one has heard of before to just
like, create a sidechain one day and they're just show up without talking to anyone,
without going to VCs, without having a website.

925
00:55:54,075 --> 00:56:15,075
They would just make the thing. And if users liked it, it could become big and that
person could have a whole career. They could have a huge career, like just making a
thing with no kind of all this other stuff that I think is mostly BS of like having
to like start a company and whatever to make whatever it is, Polkadot or some crap.

926
00:56:16,075 --> 00:56:38,075
So you wouldn't have that, you'd have much more of a focus on building. And then it
would also, I think it would reunite a lot of different people. Like you had people
who were just the kind of promoters, like a Roger Ver type of a person who would
make billboards and things, like a marketing type person. Those kind of people would
kind of come back.

927
00:56:39,075 --> 00:56:56,075
Definitely, I think the toxicity would be the biggest difference and people would be
constructing things. And developers would lose quite a bit of status as well,
believe it or not, because they would be like competing television channels. Whereas
today there's a total monopoly.

928
00:56:56,075 --> 00:57:15,075
Each developer is like a tyrant, and they run the project, they rule with an iron
fist, and no dissent is allowed. And some pretend to discuss, but it's just no
different than the king talking with like four or five oligarchs.

929
00:57:15,075 --> 00:57:31,075
You'd have real competition. So if you had someone makes a project, it would be
really more like open source software where someone makes a project, and if you
think one single line of code should be different than what it is, you can make a
new sidechain.

930
00:57:31,075 --> 00:57:49,075
I don't think that would happen very often, because I think the threat of it
happening would be enough to keep everything focused on the end user. So it'd be
like an Apple thing as well, where the user experience would start to improve. We'd
probably have no addresses because anything really ugly and too techy.

931
00:57:49,075 --> 00:58:06,075
The other thing is there'd be no, like, people wouldn't want to do anything like
impress, technically impressive, just to impress other developers. They would just
do stuff that works. And they would want to, it would all be focused on the user. So
there probably would be no addresses.

932
00:58:06,075 --> 00:58:26,075
I don't know exactly. Someone would invent something cool the same way the seed
phrase was invented. They would invent other cool stuff for like UTXOs so that
people could figure out things like fees. Probably every fee would probably go down
because of horizontal scaling. So if fees got, if there was an idea and one
blockchain number six, sidechain number six, that was really good.

933
00:58:26,075 --> 00:58:49,075
You could just copy and paste sidechain number six and start a new one. You would
need to raise the block size. You have basically an unlimited number of horizontal
space and new block chains that are the same. So all the fees would be very low. The
total amount of fees collected by the layer one miners would be high because they
merge mining, they all go to the same group.

934
00:58:49,075 --> 00:59:18,075
So those would be some pretty big changes. I think also people would reunite. It
would be like, there wouldn't be the infighting. There's a very good essay by Guern
called Tech Holy Wars. I think it's called Tech Holy Wars are Coordination Problems.
It's very short. Everyone should read it. And it's excellent. And we would have,
there would be no infighting. I think it would just be like Bitcoin and Ethereum and
then nothing else. And both would be different takes on the same thing.

935
00:59:19,075 --> 00:59:46,075
I would think because even Ethereum is now doing like sharding and ZK rollup type.
They're also doing a very similar thing. So we'd have those two and it would all
just be Bitcoin versus Ethereum in the crypto world and then crypto versus the banks
and versus everything else versus ICANN versus Facebook and everything. So in the
real world. So I think it'd be a lot better.

936
00:59:46,075 --> 00:59:57,075
But unfortunately, I don't think it'll be here. I think it'll take still years. I
mean, it would take a long time. I think this is all the cultures and is messed up
and the developer priorities are also messed up.

937
00:59:57,075 --> 01:00:20,075
Like it's not true that developers decided like they heard about this idea in 2015
or 2017 and they decided, you know what, let's change what we say is important away
from taproot, which is a technically impressive thing, but which users don't want
because we see you can look at the numbers and you can see that basically no one
uses it.

938
01:00:21,075 --> 01:00:43,075
We're going to change that to something that we know that some users want large
block size. And we know that some of those users are OK with SPV validation. So even
though we don't want it, even though we don't think it's a good idea, you know, like
a parent listening to their child and the child says, I want to go to snowboarding
school or whatever.

939
01:00:44,075 --> 01:00:51,075
You can say, I wish they would just go to skiing school or whatever. Take French.
But you say, you know what?

940
01:00:53,075 --> 01:01:00,075
It's the wrong thing to do. Keep someone prisoner here and then say, well, make it
possible for you to leave.

941
01:01:01,075 --> 01:01:02,075
You know, we don't want you to leave.

942
01:01:04,075 --> 01:01:15,075
We don't agree with the choices, but you say we respect you as the user, as the
sovereign user. But I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon,
unfortunately.

943
01:01:16,075 --> 01:01:21,075
Yeah, I think it will. So it is slowly happening. People are slowly coming around to
the 300, though.

944
01:01:22,075 --> 01:01:26,075
I think maybe we have to get that meme going that 300 is really like pro user.

945
01:01:27,075 --> 01:01:34,075
At every everyone else's expense, it's in that that is why that's it's a real
justification.

946
01:01:35,075 --> 01:01:39,075
Well, I hope I'm doing my small part to get the word out.

947
01:01:40,075 --> 01:01:46,075
It seems like, you know, it's just you want to experiment and get the best ideas out
there in the free market.

948
01:01:47,075 --> 01:01:50,075
And so this it seems like a natural progression to try that out.

949
01:01:51,075 --> 01:01:58,075
Well, this has been this has been fantastic for people that are curious about the
300 or want to follow you.

950
01:01:59,075 --> 01:02:00,075
Where's the what's the best place to follow up?

951
01:02:00,075 --> 01:02:07,075
Well, there is a drivechain.info, which I think I have BIP300.info also, but
Drivechain is 300 plus 301.

952
01:02:08,075 --> 01:02:11,075
And it's not a it's just easier to break them into two bits.

953
01:02:12,075 --> 01:02:14,075
One thing is you could read the BIP.

954
01:02:15,075 --> 01:02:23,075
A lot of people don't do that, but the people who do read the BIP quickly get over
their anxieties because you see, it's just a little posted note with a number on it.

955
01:02:24,075 --> 01:02:26,075
It just counts up to 13000, basically.

956
01:02:26,075 --> 01:02:27,075
If you're a technical person, that is.

957
01:02:28,075 --> 01:02:33,075
If you go to drivechain.info, I have actual software that you could download and
run.

958
01:02:34,075 --> 01:02:40,075
And that's a great way to learn about what's happening, because you can see it
happen right in front of your very eyes with test coins that aren't real.

959
01:02:41,075 --> 01:02:42,075
They don't abide.

960
01:02:43,075 --> 01:02:47,075
And there's also a YouTube playlist where I put all the stuff about Drivechain.

961
01:02:48,075 --> 01:02:50,075
So I'll put this in there, probably.

962
01:02:50,075 --> 01:02:56,075
And so I have lots of stuff, presentations, interviews, panels and things over the
years and debates.

963
01:02:57,075 --> 01:02:58,075
And so, yeah, you can watch.

964
01:02:59,075 --> 01:03:00,075
You can watch all of that.

965
01:03:01,075 --> 01:03:04,075
And that's like over like 30 hours of stuff is there.

966
01:03:05,075 --> 01:03:06,075
So that's the best thing.

967
01:03:07,075 --> 01:03:09,075
If you want to learn more, is that Drivechain that info has a lot.

968
01:03:10,075 --> 01:03:11,075
There's also a telegram group.

969
01:03:12,075 --> 01:03:14,075
T dot me slash DC insiders.

970
01:03:15,075 --> 01:03:16,075
That's a Washington, D.C. joke.

971
01:03:16,075 --> 01:03:18,075
And those are the things that you can follow me on Twitter.

972
01:03:19,075 --> 01:03:20,075
I'm Truthcoin on Twitter.

973
01:03:21,075 --> 01:03:22,075
T R U T H C O I N.

974
01:03:23,075 --> 01:03:24,075
Perfect.

975
01:03:25,075 --> 01:03:28,075
And I will put all the goodies down below for easy access.

976
01:03:29,075 --> 01:03:30,075
But, man, we covered a lot.

977
01:03:31,075 --> 01:03:33,075
Paul, thank you so much for taking the time.

978
01:03:34,075 --> 01:03:35,075
This is fantastic.

979
01:03:36,075 --> 01:03:37,075
Go ahead.

980
01:03:37,075 --> 01:03:38,075
My pleasure.

981
01:03:42,075 --> 01:03:44,075
Welcome to built on Bitcoin.

982
01:03:44,075 --> 01:03:47,075
I know that things don't always go your way.

983
01:03:48,075 --> 01:03:50,075
But I'll be right here waiting.

984
01:03:51,075 --> 01:03:52,075
I've been waiting now.

985
01:03:53,075 --> 01:03:54,075
I've been trying to figure out a way to make it out.

986
01:03:55,075 --> 01:03:56,075
Make it out.

987
01:03:57,075 --> 01:03:58,075
Because I don't think about everything.