1
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So the background may be a little bit biased in this debate,

2
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but the organizer just decided to follow aesthetic reasons to choose.

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Okay, it will not be just me. It will be me debating Paul, who is actually the
creator of the Drivechains idea.

4
00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:24,980
So it's not a solo talk. It's actually a debate. Okay. Okay. This is more neutral.
Paul?

5
00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,720
Yeah, I was gonna have to go against the two Giacomos there.

6
00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:39,200
Yes, hello? Can everyone hear me or no? Yes, there we go. Okay. Yes, so, well, yeah,
you know, I was checking into the hotel yesterday,

7
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and they came up to me and they said, we want to add, Giacomo wants you to be on the
stage with him.

8
00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:51,320
So here I am, but I'm happy to introduce the concept. Drivechain is this concept
that allows you to send coins to a different piece of software.

9
00:00:51,320 --> 00:01:06,160
So it's about competition. And it has innumerable benefits, but two of the big ones
would be scaling Bitcoin to planetary scale, like tomorrow, and the Zcash level
privacy.

10
00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:13,320
So I think, I mean, that's, you know, it can go on and on if you if you like, but
it's a short.

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Since it was originally being a talk about criticism on the idea, I will, I will
tell you the story about how I changed from an early, like very enthusiastic
Drivechain supporter into basically a Drivechain hater.

12
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So originally, the idea of sidechain, as most of you probably know, is the idea that
you don't have to reinvent the wheel, financially speaking, so you don't want to
print new money and to do a new price discovery, and to find new liquidity depth in
the market every time you want to change stuff from a technological point of view.

13
00:01:51,160 --> 00:02:03,000
So the excuse for many shitcoins was that, I mean, we have to print money because we
have to experiment with Zcash privacy, or we have to experiment with scalability
tradeoffs and stuff like that.

14
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And they printed money and they printed shitcoins.

15
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So the idea of the sidechain was, let's experiment of technology without reinventing
money.

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So bringing Bitcoin back and forth.

17
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And the problem was never how to bring Bitcoin in, was always how to bring Bitcoin
out.

18
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There is a lot of confusion about what a sidechain is, about merge mining, but
that's not the key point, at least that's not the difficult point.

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The difficult point is peg out, how to take this sidecoin and have Bitcoin back.

20
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Because the entire idea of sidechain is that the main Bitcoin node should not be
aware about what happens in the sidechain.

21
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Otherwise, it's not really a sidechain, it's just a block increase, it's just a
global consensus increase.

22
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So my first approach to the idea was with the Blockstream paper.

23
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The Blockstream paper, in order to take the money out, was using miners.

24
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We already use miners as canonical ordering oracles.

25
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So basically, we ask miners not if transactions are valid or not.

26
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We know that already because we have our nodes.

27
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We ask them only which valid transaction comes first or later.

28
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So that's the only role of the miners.

29
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If miners try to push an invalid transaction, we will just refuse it.

30
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So it's not about validity, it's just about chronological ordering.

31
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The idea of the initial sidechain paper was to reuse this oracle that we use already
to peg out.

32
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And we do that using SPV proofs, so basically compact proofs.

33
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So there was this sort of idea to ask miners to peg out the coin.

34
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So this proof was met with some skepticism because it's not a real proof.

35
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Because the Bitcoin node will not be able to really tell if miners are telling the
truth about this peg out.

36
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So if the peg out request is following the entire sidechain consensus or not.

37
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Because we don't know, because by definition, we don't run it.

38
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So, so far, you agree?

39
00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:08,800
Yes, but that is the whole point, is that some people don't want to run the
additional...

40
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Like Roger Ver wanted larger blocks, but other people did not.

41
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So the whole point is that some people are validating them and some people are not.

42
00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,600
And Roger Ver really would run the large block node.

43
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It's just a question of what's happening on L1.

44
00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:23,280
So we count the work and not the...

45
00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:28,680
So it's the whole point of that, is that we can never know, we can never get a
proof.

46
00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:29,320
That is the whole point.

47
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The proof would have been the mistake you were talking about before, of just making
it mandatory for everyone.

48
00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:34,640
Yeah, at least...

49
00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:35,920
About differences between people.

50
00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:37,760
If it's not a compact proof, at least.

51
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Like in the original Satoshi idea, where you can have compact proof that everybody
can validate,

52
00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:44,560
but they are like CB resistant.

53
00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:49,960
But since we don't have those kind of stuff, like a ZK proof to approve the entire
sidechain history,

54
00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,640
then the point that you make is that we have to be opt-in.

55
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So whoever wants, they can care.

56
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If they don't care, they can just ignore and just go along with the rest of the
economy.

57
00:04:59,280 --> 00:05:06,160
Even if we had this magical ZK proof thing, people might still disagree over which
ZK proof to use

58
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or whether to use it at all.

59
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And so I think ultimately the sidechain problem actually transcends the fraud-proof
problem

60
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or even these other problems, because the developers are always going to be making
things,

61
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they're always going to be inventing this or that.

62
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And so the question is, the developer will be an expert in their thing,

63
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like Barack is an expert in Ark or something.

64
00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,480
And then there'll be a bunch of laypeople who are not going to be an expert in their
thing,

65
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and so there's always going to be a misunderstanding or some kind of knowledge gap.

66
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And as a result, this is inevitable.

67
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What is the developer supposed to do if they invent Ark or something?

68
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They either have to do nothing, or they have to, as you were saying at the very
beginning of your intro there,

69
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which is that they have no choice but to launch a different coin just because they
love the tech.

70
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So, so far we basically agree.

71
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And what happened after this criticism that this is not a proof, so this is not a
real proof, the SPB proof,

72
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so Blockstream went to a direction in which they accept that there is no provable
way,

73
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they accept that there is trust involved,

74
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and so they say, at this point we might just as well trust a fixed federation of
people that are reputable,

75
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that have some reputation or risk, instead of trusting the miners,

76
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because miners are already entrusted with another very critical job,

77
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so instead of mixing up incentives, re-trusting the same oracle,

78
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we create a new different oracle, which is the sidechain federation.

79
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And Paul went to the other direction, and correct me if I'm wrong,

80
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and just said, it's still useless to use this SPB proof,

81
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just trust the miner, but removing this fake proof, this basically inconsequential
proof,

82
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and trust the miner directly by explicitly asking them to escrow this money.

83
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That was very close.

84
00:06:54,160 --> 00:07:03,160
What I said was, 51% hash rate can always censor anything they like from the L1
blockchain,

85
00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,560
so the fact that Blockstream had this re-oracle proof or something,

86
00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:10,760
I did think that was just pointless, because if 51% is against you,

87
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that no one on L1 will ever see that, and so I thought it was pointless.

88
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So both agreed that the SPB model original was a little bit pointless,

89
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but Blockstream went to fix the federation with basically explicit signing,

90
00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:31,560
and you went to direct miner escrow, which is basically BIP300 right now.

91
00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,960
Yeah, I think so. Basically the miners do something that is...

92
00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:40,560
The analogy I would make is between Liberty Reserve, which had failed,

93
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which was the fixed key, being the admin,

94
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and this is what many Ethereum L2s do, and many Ethereum projects,

95
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where they cheat, and they use the federation, and they have this fixed set of
people,

96
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versus the decentralized mining process, where there's difficulty adjustment,

97
00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,760
and people can drop ad whenever they want, and so there's this turnover,

98
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and this need to constantly be maximizing the value of the coin,

99
00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:11,360
maximizing the transaction fee usage, minimizing costs, etc.

100
00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:16,360
So I think that was the difference between Bitcoin's success and the failure of
Liberty Reserve,

101
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and I think that that is the analogy I would draw between the federated model,

102
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and the model that uses proof-of-work directly.

103
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So initially I was a big fan of Paul's approach,

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because my idea about federations is that they are fine unless there is heavy
censorship attempts.

105
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In that case, imagine somebody trying to censor one liquid federate in one
jurisdiction,

106
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the probability that the others will keep signing blocks after heavy consequences on
one is kind of low,

107
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because they don't have enough incentives.

108
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With mining, you can easily have new people showing up, even anonymously,

109
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even on tour, or hidden in China, like 30% of the hash rate right now may be hidden
in China illegally.

110
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With federations, that's harder, so for censorship, the trade-offs are in favour of
Paul's idea.

111
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And so it was a shield of dry chain before it was cool, admittedly, way before it
was cool.

112
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But then, what changed to me? So what was my conversion point?

113
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First of all, I grew a little bit sceptical, if not sceptical, lukewarm, like not
super enthusiastic,

114
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about the idea of sidechain in general, for two reasons.

115
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The first reason is that the original point was removing the technological excuse
for shitcoins,

116
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so if you can do this technology experiment on Bitcoin, you should not print new
shitcoins.

117
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But then, back then, it was kind of realistic as an idea.

118
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But I think we just saw in the market that the main point of shitcoin is just
gambling,

119
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and the kind of pseudo-technical narrative you have to put on top has to be very,
very light.

120
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So removing the excuse that you don't need that shitcoin to experiment is changing
nothing,

121
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because the main market niche which is targeted by shitcoins is just gambling.

122
00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:16,760
So they just want to see something going up and down on price, and they don't care
for Zcash privacy.

123
00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:22,560
For example, in Zcash, most of the initial transactions were not in the shielded
pool,

124
00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:25,960
were just TXs and not ZX pools.

125
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So basically, you had zero privacy, and people didn't care, because the point was
mostly speculating on the coin.

126
00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:39,360
So I started to grow a little bit like, okay, even if we do all this effort to allow
them to experiment with Bitcoin,

127
00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:44,560
the point is that people, like 99% of the market right now, is not about
experimenting.

128
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That was just a joke. They are just about token fluctuation.

129
00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:52,160
Yeah, but that last 1% is very important.

130
00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:59,160
So this is a very weak argument against it. Even if there was no reason to be
against...

131
00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:04,960
Like, even if this had no effect on altcoins, we would still want to do it,

132
00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:10,560
because in many ways, it's the only way of scaling Bitcoin and granting Bitcoin
these new features.

133
00:11:10,560 --> 00:11:16,560
But even in the case of the altcoins, you have a situation where, like I was saying
with ARK or something,

134
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where if someone invents something and they love the tech, in order to use the tech,

135
00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:25,560
they must create an altcoin if there's no sidechains.

136
00:11:25,560 --> 00:11:29,760
Well, they can just do a burn coin, like a one-way peg burn.

137
00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:34,360
Yeah, but the one-way peg doesn't really get you...

138
00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:39,360
Because the one-way peg, it has the ability to crash 99% every day forever.

139
00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:44,960
Which is very honest. Like, if this is 1,000 times better than Bitcoin, then there
will be market.

140
00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,160
If it's not, you will just lose money, because you're just experimenting with your
tech.

141
00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:52,960
No, not at all, because what you could do is you could say the target market for
this is like a million coins.

142
00:11:52,960 --> 00:12:00,760
Like, in best-case scenario, in the entire planet Earth, this would need 1 million
coins on this sidechain.

143
00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:05,360
You could have 1 million coins move over there on the one-way peg on day one, and
then they could crash 99%.

144
00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:10,760
Someone could do the second project, the second clone of that project, and then do
it again.

145
00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:15,560
I think this is a very weak reason. We don't really care about what scammers want.

146
00:12:15,560 --> 00:12:19,760
It has nothing to do with what people who are using Zcash want at all.

147
00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,760
Like, not in the slightest. You know what I mean? Like, I don't really care.

148
00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:29,560
I would use the Zcash tech as an end-user.

149
00:12:29,560 --> 00:12:32,160
So it doesn't really make any difference how it got there, you know?

150
00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:36,960
If it got there from the Zcash Foundation or from some guy who just typed it into
existence.

151
00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:43,760
So you will agree with me that the original, let's kill altcoin idea is probably not
going to happen with the crashes?

152
00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:52,160
I actually disagree, because I think it's really, like, the success of some of the
fringe coins is what gives cover to the other 99%.

153
00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,560
Okay, so without the Monero, you cannot have the Ethereum.

154
00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:59,160
Right, because we can't really, we're trapped as Bitcoiners.

155
00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:06,560
Now we have to say, okay, like you have it with your slide, where you say everything
that's not Bitcoin is a scam.

156
00:13:06,560 --> 00:13:10,760
But then you have to, then you're trapped into calling like Monero and like Namecoin
a scam,

157
00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:15,760
and other things where kind of like people are left scratching their head as to like
whether or not,

158
00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,760
how is it possible that Giacomo Zucco is calling stuff a scam,

159
00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:24,360
when there's literally no way that he could possibly know, like, what is going to be
invented next year,

160
00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,760
or what, you know, what all the things that are in existence today.

161
00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:32,760
So then people turn, they take the slide and they flip it around, and they say,
look, this is how crazy Bitcoiners are.

162
00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,760
They have this irrational view that can't possibly be true.

163
00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,760
But why wasn't that kind of change of mind enabled already by Elements?

164
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:44,760
Like, everybody can run an Elements sidechain already, and create a Zcash element.

165
00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:46,760
Nobody did, because there's no money to be made.

166
00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:52,760
No, it's not, because I can't use, I can't go to Elements and take the Zcash altcoin
code,

167
00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:57,760
and like paste it in there, and get a Zcash sidechain out.

168
00:13:57,760 --> 00:13:59,760
Well, you can.

169
00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:01,760
I wish you could, but you can't.

170
00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,760
And the other thing is, Elements is using the federated model.

171
00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,760
This is separate completely, but the federated model you were talking about before,

172
00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:14,760
the whole logic, as you were saying a moment ago, is that it relies on people's
reputations.

173
00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:16,760
And it relies on, like, these 15 people.

174
00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,760
But no one knows who these 15 key holders are.

175
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,760
And in fact, there was a bug at one point, my friend James Prestwich found,

176
00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:27,760
where it was like four block, anyone working at Blockstream could just empty the
liquid.

177
00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,760
So if I'm a Monero guy, I'm using Monero's confidential transaction,

178
00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:34,760
and not liquid confidential transaction,

179
00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:39,760
because the general censorship-resistant model may be less secure.

180
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:40,760
That's your...

181
00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:47,760
Well, I think with Monero, they have more of a community that is committed to
privacy.

182
00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:49,760
So they say, we want this feature.

183
00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,760
Like, where's the ring signature feature?

184
00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,760
You want liquidity also with privacy.

185
00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:58,760
So there's a small network effect there also.

186
00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,760
But the Monero people, I mean, the Monero people,

187
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,760
that's a perfect case where it cannot possibly be for anything other than the
feature.

188
00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:07,760
Because you have people using it on darknet markets.

189
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:09,760
Darknet markets used to be Bitcoin only.

190
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,760
And then now many of them have switched to being Monero only.

191
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:14,760
Well, not many, basically two.

192
00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:15,760
Most of them are also Monero.

193
00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:20,760
I was, well, I mean, I was just looking into it just as, like, you know,

194
00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:22,760
for my own, doing my own research, you know, of course.

195
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,760
But, you know, the ones I saw were Monero only.

196
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:28,760
So there was no, you couldn't even use BTC.

197
00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:33,760
So this is not good because this is how Bitcoin made it from being, like,

198
00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,760
a complete non-project to being something that had real value.

199
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:40,760
But the point is, someone is using it on a darknet market,

200
00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,760
they can't possibly be pumping the coin because there's a buyer and seller.

201
00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:48,760
And if you pump it in one direction, then it's a zero-sum game as to it.

202
00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:50,760
So they must be using it for the feature.

203
00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,760
My point is that if you have money printing, you can pay for a budget

204
00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,760
that will go on darknet market forums to pump Monero,

205
00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:02,760
unlike you can do with liquid coin or with the Drivechain coins.

206
00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,760
So anyway, this is the first, you say, this is a weak argument.

207
00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,760
It is because it's just saying that what you're saying is

208
00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:14,760
there's no one would ever want to use the Monero ring signature on BIP300.

209
00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,760
But you can't know that.

210
00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,760
No, I'm just saying we were probably deluded to think

211
00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:20,760
that would be more disruptive than it is.

212
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:22,760
But let's say, okay, this is a weak argument.

213
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:24,760
Let me move over to other arguments.

214
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,760
The other arguments, I don't like sidechains as a concept

215
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,760
so much as I used to do back in the days,

216
00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,760
is that when you try to experiment with new models,

217
00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,760
like Blockstream moved to a federation approach for pegout.

218
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,760
Then they realized why to use merge mining when the signers can just sign blocks.

219
00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:42,760
And so they moved to sign a block.

220
00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:44,760
And now people are just basically saying,

221
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,760
okay, why don't we use the same federation for a show me on mint

222
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,760
with blind signatures directly and you have FedE mint.

223
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,760
And now you have a lot of, so when you experiment,

224
00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:58,760
you find out that the original design to have something very close to Bitcoin,

225
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,760
but which is not Bitcoin, is probably even too limited.

226
00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,760
Right now we have a plethora of things that are not really sidechains.

227
00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,760
Like an ARK provider is not really a sidechain.

228
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:09,760
It's just this kind of pool.

229
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:10,760
We have dark pools.

230
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,760
We have hierarchical channels with many people.

231
00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,760
We have the hypothesis to have lightening factories.

232
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,760
The things that we can do to create local consensuses

233
00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:24,760
where people can experiment outside of the global consensus

234
00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,760
are so more rich than a copy of the main chain.

235
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,760
So this is the second reason I'm going a little bit less enthusiastic

236
00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:34,760
about the general sidechain topic.

237
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,760
But now we get into the Drivechain specifically, if you wish.

238
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,760
Yeah, but again, like these other things are not,

239
00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:43,760
they're just nowhere near as good at all.

240
00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:48,760
So with the sidechain concept, you can rewrite whatever you like.

241
00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,760
It doesn't even have to be in C++.

242
00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:53,760
It could be in JavaScript or something.

243
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,760
You could rewrite something completely in Rust, as we have done, for example.

244
00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:58,760
You can have any block size.

245
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:00,760
You can have any zk-SNARK thing.

246
00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:05,760
The point of the sidechain is that you have disagreement among developers.

247
00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,760
So the idea of the sidechain is there can be someone

248
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,760
who's like a 15-year-old at MIT or something,

249
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:13,760
and they have this brilliant idea,

250
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,760
and it's so brilliant that everyone in Bitcoin Core misunderstands it.

251
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:19,760
And in fact, maybe they even don't like it

252
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,760
because it puts everyone else to shame.

253
00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,760
And the sidechain idea is that somehow this person's thing can still make it,

254
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:27,760
no matter how different it is.

255
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,760
It could be any amount of different.

256
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,760
It could still make it, and instead of launching it as an altcoin,

257
00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:34,760
they could use Bitcoin, basically.

258
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,760
So that's the idea. It's a fringe idea with Bitcoin instead of with an altcoin.

259
00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,760
And there's no limit to how many ideas someone could think of.

260
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:43,760
There's no arc.

261
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:48,760
We can't even do that now because it requires 119 or TxHash or something.

262
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:50,760
We can't even do that today.

263
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,760
It's a perfect example of a lightning network we couldn't have had

264
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,760
without multisig or SegWit or checkLockTimeVerify,

265
00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:58,760
checkSequenceVerify, whatever.

266
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:00,760
It must be interactive, so it would be very ugly.

267
00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:02,760
So let's say that you convince me, not really,

268
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:07,760
but let's say you convince me about making sidechains great again.

269
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:13,760
Now I go to the two problems I see with specifically the BIP300, 301 campaigns.

270
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,760
The first one is that at this point, your original proposal

271
00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,760
starts to be a little bit obsolete compared to other kinds of discussions.

272
00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,760
For example, many people are discussing covenants.

273
00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,760
We can do some kind of dry-chain-like behavior with covenants.

274
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,760
And, for example, people were discussing a few months ago

275
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,760
that you can use existing opcodes to force the signature

276
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,760
to be under a certain threshold of bits.

277
00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,760
And if you do that, basically you create a proof-of-work escrow

278
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,760
that may or may not be reused by the same hashers

279
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,760
because there is some kind of difficulty.

280
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:52,760
But we have so many other, like compared to the state of research

281
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,760
when you came up with the idea, now we have so many other priorities

282
00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,760
and things that may enable the same endpoint

283
00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,760
that this may feel a little bit outdated, basically.

284
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:03,760
Would you not agree with that?

285
00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:04,760
No, I completely disagree.

286
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,760
In fact, what I have seen since 2015 has been the technical community

287
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:13,760
slide further and further into basically self-denial

288
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:19,760
and just unbelievable amounts of dishonesty, I would almost say, actually.

289
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,760
So I think that I completely disagree.

290
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,760
The idea that you can do proof-of-work on one signature,

291
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,760
that that would replace what BIP300 does is untrue.

292
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,760
The idea that ARC or whatever, that all these things

293
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,760
give people unilateral exit from L2 to L1,

294
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,760
so they're all very sensitive to the L1 fee rate,

295
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:41,760
which is not true of BIP300.

296
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:46,760
BIP300, you can onboard people on L2 without changing any L1 bytes,

297
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:48,760
which is not true of anything else.

298
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,760
You can move coins over with one transaction and have them fan out

299
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:56,760
and then change hands and then recombine before coming back.

300
00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,760
So these covenant things are mostly like nerd sniping.

301
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,760
They are like white papers only.

302
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:05,760
No one has put details out,

303
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,760
and they are very limited in what they can do, I think.

304
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,760
And the only thing that has increased is people's desperation

305
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,760
and their attempt to avoid the simple truth,

306
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,760
which is that all BIP300 does is count to 13,000,

307
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,760
and the idea that we would avoid doing that

308
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,760
because we don't want to do a soft fork is, I think,

309
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,760
just like that would be the beginning of the end for Bitcoin, honestly.

310
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:31,760
It's so silly.

311
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:36,760
This really lies perfectly in my last and actually the only aggressive argument.

312
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:38,760
Do you agree with anything I said?

313
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:40,760
Your first point, you already said it was a weak point,

314
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,760
that you don't think Zcash scammers would come over.

315
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:45,760
I agree with you, but it doesn't matter,

316
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,760
because I would prefer to have the Zcash feature.

317
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,760
The first point was weak in the sense that it should not stop the idea of dry chain.

318
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,760
It probably will not give us what we expected or hoped for,

319
00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:58,760
but still, why not?

320
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:00,760
But I actually disagree also, as I said,

321
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,760
because when you bring all the creative people to Bitcoin,

322
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,760
or you have someone who creates something else, Zcash,

323
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:08,760
and then we just copy and paste it, which we have already done.

324
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,760
We already have the latest version of Zcash as a sidechain working today,

325
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,760
and we have the latest version of Ethereum full node,

326
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:17,760
just with Bitcoin only, working today.

327
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,760
We have a lot of this stuff working today, Namecoin, etc., on our testnet.

328
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:23,760
I guess this may open another...

329
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,760
If you have every real project on BTC, it really does undermine.

330
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,760
You can go back to using that slide where you say everything else is a scam,

331
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:32,760
because it will go back to being true,

332
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,760
but until then, you really can't say that,

333
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,760
because if the end user says they want something,

334
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,760
the end user says, I really, really, really want whatever it is,

335
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,760
Namecoin or EVM or whatever, DeFi, it doesn't matter.

336
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:48,760
It doesn't matter what they really want.

337
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,760
If they say they really want Solana, I mean, I don't care about Solana at all,

338
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,760
but if the end user really wants something,

339
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:59,760
they're going to get it from stupid Solana or something,

340
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,760
and not from BTC, and so then what you're saying is

341
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:04,760
the end user is wrong about what they want,

342
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:06,760
but that's just ridiculous, I think.

343
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,760
Yeah, I still think that the reason people didn't use,

344
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:11,760
for example, Element or other ideas,

345
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:13,760
or burn a coin in order to recreate Monero,

346
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,760
is a good indication that the only thing they really want,

347
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:18,760
as a community at least, is to shield a new coin,

348
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:19,760
to have financial gains.

349
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,760
I think that without the trading aspect of Monero,

350
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:24,760
a Monero community will not exist,

351
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:25,760
and the Monero tech will not exist.

352
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:27,760
That's way more true for Ethereum,

353
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:29,760
but I think that's true for Monero as well,

354
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,760
because Monero people mostly don't use Lightning for privacy,

355
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:34,760
don't use CoinJoin for privacy,

356
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,760
don't use the other things that are already there in Bitcoin,

357
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,760
because the main drive, when you can print money,

358
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,760
everything about your incentive structure becomes about printing money.

359
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,760
So the people you select are the people that are going to pump the coin,

360
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,760
more than creative developers that want to use the standard.

361
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:51,760
But you're still missing the point completely.

362
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,760
There's many people, David Vorek wrote it in the white paper,

363
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:55,760
at the beginning, they said,

364
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:57,760
we are launching as an altcoin because we have no other choice,

365
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,760
we would wish to do it as a Bitcoin sidechain.

366
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,760
Jeremy Rantz said the exact same thing,

367
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,760
published remarks on Namecoin,

368
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,760
he said we would prefer to do it as a Bitcoin sidechain,

369
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:10,760
but we can't.

370
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,760
Ricardo said the same thing,

371
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:15,760
when he was interviewed by Bitcoin Uncensored,

372
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,760
he said, why are you making this altcoin over and over again,

373
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:20,760
and he just said over and over again,

374
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:21,760
what do you want me to do instead,

375
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:23,760
and eventually they had to admit that he was right.

376
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,760
And aren't we all better off than he did, in a way,

377
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,760
because now the Monero technology and bulletproofs, etc.

378
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:30,760
has come further.

379
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:32,760
And same thing for probably Zcash.

380
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:33,760
That came from Liquid.

381
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:35,760
Bulletproof came from Blockchain Research.

382
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:37,760
The guy from Stanford or whatever.

383
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:39,760
I don't remember his name.

384
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,760
Yeah, but confidential transactions are coming from...

385
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,760
Yeah, but you're saying that Blockstream is responsible

386
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,760
for all the Zk-SNARK research that came out of Zcash or something,

387
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:49,760
or Ethereum?

388
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:51,760
I don't think anyone would say that.

389
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:52,760
Well, some Ethereum...

390
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:53,760
And then again,

391
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,760
we can say that some of the current zero-sync success

392
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:58,760
is coming from Ethereum Research, right?

393
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:00,760
Well, we should ask them

394
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,760
if they think they would be where they are today

395
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:05,760
if it weren't for Zcash and Ethereum.

396
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:06,760
We ask Robin, and we say,

397
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:08,760
Robin, did you use Ethereum Research?

398
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:09,760
And he would say yes.

399
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:10,760
But my point would be,

400
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,760
Ethereum Research would not even exist

401
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,760
without the giant pre-mine of ETH scam sold to retail.

402
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,760
So that research was funded entirely by the shitcoin model.

403
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:21,760
With the sidechain,

404
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,760
Ethereum Foundation would have zero budget.

405
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:25,760
Well, in a way, then, we should be even happier.

406
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:26,760
I don't think that's true, first of all,

407
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:27,760
but if it was,

408
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:29,760
all it means is how clever are we Bitcoiners,

409
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:31,760
because we allowed Ethereum,

410
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:33,760
we gave it some leash.

411
00:25:33,825 --> 00:25:42,825
We gave it a little bit of time to do the R&D, and then we copied and pasted,
installed it, and then we sank the coin, that would be very clever of us, but I wish
we were that clever. I don't think we are, though.

412
00:25:42,825 --> 00:25:45,825
So if you succeeded with the Drivechain before, you would have...

413
00:25:45,825 --> 00:25:52,825
There wouldn't have been so much stuff to copy, so I cleverly bided my time until
now, lurking in the shadows.

414
00:25:52,825 --> 00:25:59,825
Let me go more adversarial. This is my final... Basically, all my point was the one
I'm going to make right now.

415
00:25:59,825 --> 00:26:02,825
Okay, so the first two weren't even... You didn't even care about those.

416
00:26:02,825 --> 00:26:03,825
I just wanted to waste your time.

417
00:26:03,825 --> 00:26:05,825
Okay, now the last four minutes, everyone. Here it is.

418
00:26:05,825 --> 00:26:10,825
So even if you convince me that we still have to use sidechains...

419
00:26:10,825 --> 00:26:11,825
That's all the time we have. Sorry, I'm joking.

420
00:26:11,825 --> 00:26:12,825
Five minutes.

421
00:26:12,825 --> 00:26:13,825
That was a joke.

422
00:26:13,825 --> 00:26:26,825
Okay. Even if you convince me we should use sidechains, and that your sidechain
model is still somehow not up to date with all the other kind of ideas around,

423
00:26:26,825 --> 00:26:34,825
my point would be that the current campaign to propose BIP300 and 300.1 is
completely dishonest in narrative,

424
00:26:34,825 --> 00:26:36,825
because it's based on basically four points.

425
00:26:36,825 --> 00:26:41,825
The first one is, sky is falling unless... Well, we do the Italian version. Sorry.

426
00:26:41,825 --> 00:26:46,825
Sky is falling if we don't do this. This is a typical Roger Ver kind of approach.

427
00:26:46,825 --> 00:26:50,825
Bitcoin is dead, you say, because it's going to fail if you don't do my thing,

428
00:26:50,825 --> 00:26:55,825
which is also basically the same logic of many of the big cash people.

429
00:26:55,825 --> 00:26:57,825
I can explain that, but I don't know how much time I'm going to have.

430
00:26:57,825 --> 00:26:58,825
You will manage it.

431
00:26:58,825 --> 00:26:59,825
Okay, one, two...

432
00:26:59,825 --> 00:27:04,825
The second would be, my solution, unlike the others, has no negative sides.

433
00:27:04,825 --> 00:27:08,825
Everything has trade-offs, except for Drivechain. Zero negative.

434
00:27:08,825 --> 00:27:10,825
Well, that's four. Let me get there.

435
00:27:10,825 --> 00:27:16,825
Third one is, since we cannot... Things that exist, like lightning, they are
imperfect.

436
00:27:16,825 --> 00:27:22,825
So instead of fixing that, improving gradually, we should do something completely
new.

437
00:27:23,825 --> 00:27:26,825
We should basically start from something that doesn't exist right now, which is a
Drivechain.

438
00:27:26,825 --> 00:27:29,825
Code exists. The Drivechain does not exist.

439
00:27:29,825 --> 00:27:33,825
And the third one is basically that... Well, let's just go with these three.

440
00:27:33,825 --> 00:27:36,825
We'll leave the fourth one for another debate.

441
00:27:36,825 --> 00:27:38,825
Sky is falling. Let me tell you why I say that.

442
00:27:38,825 --> 00:27:42,825
It's because I'm very familiar... This is this idea of the specialist versus the
generalist,

443
00:27:42,825 --> 00:27:45,825
which is, I know that this idea... Well, maybe I should skip to two,

444
00:27:45,825 --> 00:27:50,825
because all it does is it takes unused op-nop5 and uses a count of 13,000.

445
00:27:50,825 --> 00:27:55,825
So there's already a way to do that now without a soft fork. It would just suck.

446
00:27:55,825 --> 00:27:59,825
And we could already just do this entire idea just by trusting the miners more.

447
00:27:59,825 --> 00:28:03,825
We just handshake deal with them that they won't withdraw any of the coins early.

448
00:28:03,825 --> 00:28:07,825
So we can already do this idea. The BIP300 idea is inevitable.

449
00:28:07,825 --> 00:28:10,825
BIP300 is just the most efficient way. It's packaged up.

450
00:28:10,825 --> 00:28:15,825
It's taking the unused op-nop5 and counting to 13,000. That really can't be bad.

451
00:28:15,825 --> 00:28:21,825
If we do it and then it turns out bad somehow, we can just disable it the same way
we turned it on.

452
00:28:21,825 --> 00:28:22,825
And if we can't do that...

453
00:28:22,825 --> 00:28:23,825
It would be a hard fork.

454
00:28:23,825 --> 00:28:26,825
No, it's a soft fork. You just ban op-nop5 forever.

455
00:28:26,825 --> 00:28:29,825
So then it's turned off the same way it was turned on.

456
00:28:29,825 --> 00:28:34,825
And if we can't do that, then we can't stop miners from just turning op-nop5 on as
op-Drivechain anyway.

457
00:28:34,825 --> 00:28:38,825
So the whole thing is optional. You don't have to run BIP300,

458
00:28:38,825 --> 00:28:43,825
even if you run an old node and you have no negative consequences if you don't
even...

459
00:28:44,825 --> 00:28:49,825
So to me, the reason why these are linked, because the reason why I say it has no
downsides,

460
00:28:49,825 --> 00:28:52,825
it has no downsides for the other people on L1.

461
00:28:52,825 --> 00:28:55,825
The L2 people, of course, they have a trade-off.

462
00:28:55,825 --> 00:29:00,825
But it's all about the L1 people. They have really no trade-off.

463
00:29:00,825 --> 00:29:03,825
So the L2 people have the trade-off, but the L1 people don't.

464
00:29:03,825 --> 00:29:06,825
And this whole separation that people are different is the whole point.

465
00:29:06,825 --> 00:29:10,825
The L1, the first reason why you say, why do I say the sky is falling?

466
00:29:10,825 --> 00:29:15,825
Because to me, the fact that this could even be controversial at all

467
00:29:15,825 --> 00:29:19,825
speaks to how potentially doomed we are.

468
00:29:19,825 --> 00:29:23,825
I actually think, I hope that I'm wrong, but I think there could be like a thousand
ideas out there

469
00:29:23,825 --> 00:29:28,825
that are like a really good idea, an arc, a CTV or something,

470
00:29:28,825 --> 00:29:32,825
that would all make it as sidechains, but instead we will never hear about

471
00:29:32,825 --> 00:29:34,825
or they'll never survive the process.

472
00:29:34,825 --> 00:29:38,825
And I think that it contributes to people's decision

473
00:29:38,825 --> 00:29:40,825
that they are going to look the other way.

474
00:29:40,825 --> 00:29:43,825
Their third and final point was basically,

475
00:29:43,825 --> 00:29:46,825
sure, maybe this idea is good for Bitcoin,

476
00:29:46,825 --> 00:29:48,825
and it's good for all the people here in the audience.

477
00:29:48,825 --> 00:29:52,825
But because of whatever, I don't feel great about things Paul says,

478
00:29:52,825 --> 00:29:55,825
I'm just going to look the other way or whatever,

479
00:29:55,825 --> 00:29:59,825
which is like some kind of absurd, corrupt favoritism of a kind.

480
00:29:59,825 --> 00:30:03,825
I'm just going to say, well, the only thing that matters is whether or not it's a
good idea,

481
00:30:03,825 --> 00:30:05,825
and it's good for Bitcoin. So nothing else makes any difference.

482
00:30:05,825 --> 00:30:07,825
Expand on that last point.

483
00:30:07,825 --> 00:30:11,825
If something is harmless, but creates a precedent, for example,

484
00:30:11,825 --> 00:30:14,825
to give miners direct control of funds,

485
00:30:14,825 --> 00:30:17,825
to increase the political power of mining cartels,

486
00:30:17,825 --> 00:30:20,825
or for example, if you say that the risk is opt-in,

487
00:30:20,825 --> 00:30:23,825
so there is no negative for the L1 users,

488
00:30:23,825 --> 00:30:29,825
but one negative would be that one Drivechain may actually be stolen by miners,

489
00:30:29,825 --> 00:30:36,825
and if that happens, the users will be left between basically the hard place and the
hammer.

490
00:30:36,825 --> 00:30:37,825
The rock and the hard place?

491
00:30:37,825 --> 00:30:43,825
Yeah, to choose between enforcing a censorship of this wrong withdrawal

492
00:30:43,825 --> 00:30:48,825
that will require every user to either run the sidechain consensus

493
00:30:48,825 --> 00:30:52,825
or to actually use weak subjectivity Ethereum style,

494
00:30:52,825 --> 00:30:54,825
so just to use social networks.

495
00:30:54,825 --> 00:30:57,825
This is just another example of why I feel dismayed

496
00:30:57,825 --> 00:30:59,825
that the idea could even be controversial,

497
00:30:59,825 --> 00:31:03,825
because the security model Drivechain is that the miners will prefer to take the
fees,

498
00:31:03,825 --> 00:31:05,825
and so if they steal, then they steal.

499
00:31:05,825 --> 00:31:08,825
That's allowed and almost encouraged,

500
00:31:08,825 --> 00:31:10,825
because they can have different sidechains that interfere with each other,

501
00:31:10,825 --> 00:31:12,825
like two Namecoin sidechains at once,

502
00:31:12,825 --> 00:31:15,825
so you actually want miners to shoot one of them in the head and get rid of them.

503
00:31:15,825 --> 00:31:18,825
So they could do that, but even if they did,

504
00:31:18,825 --> 00:31:21,825
even if they were pressured into doing this UASF,

505
00:31:21,825 --> 00:31:25,825
the UASF is something that only affects the people who have chosen to opt-in.

506
00:31:25,825 --> 00:31:27,825
Anyone who's just on vacation is okay.

507
00:31:27,825 --> 00:31:28,825
No, it creates a precedent.

508
00:31:28,825 --> 00:31:31,825
The only way people can coordinate to a UASF

509
00:31:31,825 --> 00:31:34,825
is either running the node for the sidechain,

510
00:31:34,825 --> 00:31:36,825
or asking, well, I agree.

511
00:31:36,825 --> 00:31:38,825
Whether you do the UASF at all is opt-in,

512
00:31:38,825 --> 00:31:40,825
and it also doesn't make any difference,

513
00:31:40,825 --> 00:31:42,825
because if you try the UASF and you succeed,

514
00:31:42,825 --> 00:31:44,825
then nothing bad happened to anyone,

515
00:31:44,825 --> 00:31:45,825
because the miners backed down.

516
00:31:45,825 --> 00:31:46,825
No, it did. It did.

517
00:31:46,825 --> 00:31:48,825
And if you try the UASF and it didn't succeed,

518
00:31:48,825 --> 00:31:49,825
then also nothing happened.

519
00:31:49,825 --> 00:31:51,825
Paul, we had the coordination about consensus rule

520
00:31:51,825 --> 00:31:53,825
that was not based on self-verification.

521
00:31:53,825 --> 00:31:55,825
Coordination was being trusted.

522
00:31:55,825 --> 00:31:58,825
So in order to know that I should censor this transaction

523
00:31:58,825 --> 00:32:01,825
because it's not compliant to the BIP,

524
00:32:01,825 --> 00:32:03,825
how can I know the sidechain state?

525
00:32:03,825 --> 00:32:05,825
I ask the Truthcoin website blog,

526
00:32:05,825 --> 00:32:08,825
or I run the entire sidechain consensus?

527
00:32:08,825 --> 00:32:11,825
But I'm saying the fact that it's optional

528
00:32:11,825 --> 00:32:12,825
precludes it from being problematic.

529
00:32:12,825 --> 00:32:14,825
You don't have to go to the Truthcoin site.

530
00:32:14,825 --> 00:32:15,825
You don't have to do anything.

531
00:32:15,825 --> 00:32:17,825
You can just go to sleep.

532
00:32:17,825 --> 00:32:18,825
You don't have to do a single thing.

533
00:32:18,825 --> 00:32:20,825
But that's true for every Bitcoin debate.

534
00:32:20,825 --> 00:32:21,825
We can just not run Bitcoin.

535
00:32:21,825 --> 00:32:23,825
Whether the UASF succeeds or not,

536
00:32:23,825 --> 00:32:25,825
your full node will do exactly the same thing.

537
00:32:25,825 --> 00:32:27,825
You'll end up on the same chain as everyone else.

538
00:32:27,825 --> 00:32:29,825
So this whole thing is in irrelevance.

539
00:32:29,825 --> 00:32:30,825
But just to answer your question,

540
00:32:30,825 --> 00:32:32,825
even if it were relevant,

541
00:32:32,825 --> 00:32:34,825
this type of thing actually has happened all the time.

542
00:32:34,825 --> 00:32:36,825
That happened with random emergencies

543
00:32:36,825 --> 00:32:41,825
due to botched BIP16 activation or whatever,

544
00:32:41,825 --> 00:32:44,825
and a value overflow bug or something like that.

545
00:32:44,825 --> 00:32:46,825
So even in those cases, it still works.

546
00:32:46,825 --> 00:32:49,825
But this is, again, a misunderstanding.

547
00:32:50,825 --> 00:32:53,825
The L1 users do not need to care about this at all.

548
00:32:53,825 --> 00:32:56,825
This is basically something that's like the Lightning Network

549
00:32:56,825 --> 00:32:59,825
where one of the channel participants,

550
00:32:59,825 --> 00:33:01,825
it's like a channel factory

551
00:33:01,825 --> 00:33:04,825
where one of the participants is 51% of miners.

552
00:33:04,825 --> 00:33:06,825
But if you're not using BIP300,

553
00:33:06,825 --> 00:33:07,825
you can just ignore it completely.

554
00:33:07,825 --> 00:33:09,825
You won't even realize that it's there.

555
00:33:09,825 --> 00:33:10,825
You have no way of even knowing

556
00:33:10,825 --> 00:33:12,825
whether or not it is being used or not.

557
00:33:12,825 --> 00:33:14,825
You just have an indirect way of guessing

558
00:33:14,825 --> 00:33:15,825
through all this other information.

559
00:33:15,825 --> 00:33:18,825
You'd use Twitter or use Truthcoin website or something.

560
00:33:18,825 --> 00:33:20,825
So if everybody, now we finish,

561
00:33:20,825 --> 00:33:21,825
if, final question,

562
00:33:21,825 --> 00:33:23,825
if everybody, except me,

563
00:33:23,825 --> 00:33:25,825
will run the new code of BIP300,

564
00:33:25,825 --> 00:33:28,825
so basically it will be overhelmed by economic consensus.

565
00:33:28,825 --> 00:33:31,825
So there will be a giant sidechain,

566
00:33:31,825 --> 00:33:33,825
that will be stolen.

567
00:33:33,825 --> 00:33:34,825
You will campaign with me

568
00:33:34,825 --> 00:33:37,825
not to do a change of consensus to censor it

569
00:33:37,825 --> 00:33:40,825
because if you don't run the entire sidechain consensus,

570
00:33:40,825 --> 00:33:44,825
you cannot choose unless you use social authorities.

571
00:33:44,825 --> 00:33:48,825
The security model does not rely on any of this happening.

572
00:33:48,825 --> 00:33:50,825
And you will campaign with me against that

573
00:33:50,825 --> 00:33:51,825
because that would be a very bad precedent

574
00:33:51,825 --> 00:33:54,825
to trust a blog to decide what to fork for, right?

575
00:33:54,825 --> 00:33:55,825
Yeah, I think,

576
00:33:55,825 --> 00:33:58,825
but in a way I want credit for it both ways

577
00:33:58,825 --> 00:33:59,825
and I don't really apologize for that

578
00:33:59,825 --> 00:34:02,825
because the thing is,

579
00:34:02,825 --> 00:34:03,825
you're not,

580
00:34:03,825 --> 00:34:06,825
it's like a natural disaster happens

581
00:34:06,825 --> 00:34:07,825
and then people ask for donations.

582
00:34:07,825 --> 00:34:08,825
You know what I mean?

583
00:34:08,825 --> 00:34:10,825
You kind of want to complain either way.

584
00:34:10,825 --> 00:34:11,825
You either want to say,

585
00:34:12,825 --> 00:34:14,825
it's like if people feel sympathy

586
00:34:14,825 --> 00:34:16,825
and they want to do something,

587
00:34:16,825 --> 00:34:17,825
then they can try to do it.

588
00:34:17,825 --> 00:34:21,825
Now imagine where they try and they fail.

589
00:34:21,825 --> 00:34:23,825
They tried, they run the CUSF

590
00:34:23,825 --> 00:34:25,825
and every 99 million percent of everyone tries

591
00:34:25,825 --> 00:34:26,825
but they actually fail

592
00:34:26,825 --> 00:34:29,825
and the miners extend one chain.

593
00:34:29,825 --> 00:34:31,825
That's the chain that you're going to be on.

594
00:34:31,825 --> 00:34:32,825
The people who have not done that,

595
00:34:32,825 --> 00:34:34,825
they have basically hard forked.

596
00:34:34,825 --> 00:34:35,825
They have said,

597
00:34:35,825 --> 00:34:37,825
we reject the heaviest chain rule

598
00:34:37,825 --> 00:34:40,825
and we have basically created a new thing

599
00:34:40,825 --> 00:34:42,825
that would be new B-cash or whatever.

600
00:34:42,825 --> 00:34:44,825
But they can already do that.

601
00:34:44,825 --> 00:34:46,825
It has nothing to do with Drivechain though

602
00:34:46,825 --> 00:34:47,825
because they can already do that.

603
00:34:47,825 --> 00:34:48,825
So either miners decide

604
00:34:48,825 --> 00:34:50,825
or people decide without knowing

605
00:34:50,825 --> 00:34:52,825
if the consensus they're running is right or not.

606
00:34:52,825 --> 00:34:55,825
So I agree that Drivechains are like a natural disaster

607
00:34:55,825 --> 00:34:57,825
but I would not agree that's a good thing.

608
00:34:57,825 --> 00:35:00,825
No, it's the sympathy that someone feels.

609
00:35:00,825 --> 00:35:02,825
If they want to get involved

610
00:35:02,825 --> 00:35:03,825
and do something, they can.

611
00:35:03,825 --> 00:35:04,825
But they can't.

612
00:35:04,825 --> 00:35:05,825
They can't run the consensus.

613
00:35:05,825 --> 00:35:07,825
They can't know which one is right.

614
00:35:07,825 --> 00:35:08,825
No, but they can know,

615
00:35:08,825 --> 00:35:09,825
I don't know,

616
00:35:09,825 --> 00:35:10,825
Okay, you're right.

617
00:35:11,825 --> 00:35:14,825
Okay, so I was obviously right

618
00:35:14,825 --> 00:35:15,825
and Paul was wrong

619
00:35:15,825 --> 00:35:19,825
but I hope that was more to it during the debate.

620
00:35:19,825 --> 00:35:20,825
Thank you.

621
00:35:23,825 --> 00:35:25,825
Thank you Miami for the last three years

622
00:35:25,825 --> 00:35:27,825
in this amazing city.

623
00:35:27,825 --> 00:35:29,825
The whole world shut down

624
00:35:29,825 --> 00:35:32,825
but Miami welcomed us with open arms.

625
00:35:33,825 --> 00:35:36,825
We want to show Bitcoin to the whole world.

626
00:35:37,825 --> 00:35:40,825
We are taking the conference on the road

627
00:35:40,825 --> 00:35:43,825
to set the stage for Bitcoin in a new city.

628
00:35:57,825 --> 00:36:01,825
Bitcoin 2024 is coming to Nashville in Tennessee

629
00:36:01,825 --> 00:36:04,825
a city that is known as a music and freedom city.

630
00:36:04,825 --> 00:36:06,825
Bitcoin 2024 in Nashville

631
00:36:06,825 --> 00:36:09,825
from July 25th to 27th.