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I'm out too.

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Those guys.

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Yeah, those guys are great.

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They're really funny.

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I don't know what else they are.

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We are live.

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It's just like, it's great.

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It's just like guys, it's just live streaming.

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It's like, it's like Twitch or something.

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Yeah, they're just broing out.

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They're just broing out.

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They're just playing video games, drinking, talking about whatever.

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We're live with another Bitcoin Bloodsport.

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As you can see, these two are just dying to just kill each other.

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It's a lot of acrimony.

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I don't know how to hold these guys back.

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A lot of animosity here.

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But I have two very special guys in the community.

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It's been a lot of turmoil and chaos this week about how we got these two together.

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I apologize to the brother that we X'd out.

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We had another guy, Steve Patterson.

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Steve, I'm sorry.

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I'm going to make it up to you.

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We get you back on this platform another time.

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Maybe we do a personal interview or something.

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But he got vetoed.

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The community said, nah, this ain't the guy.

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And at first I didn't I wasn't paying too much attention to the guys.

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You know, I just assumed they were trolls.

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But when somebody well known in that in that community spoke up and DM me and showed
me some tweets, I was like, yeah, this doesn't make sense for today.

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Maybe another time. So I apologize to him and anybody who's expecting that.

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As you already know, I'm shilling Coinbase at Coinbase app dot com.

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It's a dollar on all transactions.

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If you know the network fees to purchase Bitcoin, it's kind of crazy sometimes.

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So no matter what amount you want to buy, it's only a dollar.

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And it does it automatically for you, too, based upon the roundup scheme.

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So you guys go ahead, sign up.

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That link is in the description in the box below.

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Now that we got all the bureaucracy out the way.

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We got my homie Paul Sztorc is to my left or my right, your left.

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And we got Vin Armani.

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Paul, go ahead and introduce yourself to the people who you are and then go directly
afterwards.

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All right. I'm this guy from Connecticut.

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I work. I went to have a pretty mainstream background.

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So I went to public school, high school for a while, and then I went to college and
then I went to graduate school.

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And then I ended up working in the Yale Economics Department for a guy named Bill
Nordhaus, who just won the Nobel Prize, actually.

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So that was pretty neat.

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But while I was there, I invented this thing, Truthcoin, which is like a prediction
markets, blockchain technology.

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And both Blockstream and Roger Ver tried to hire me away from Yale.

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And and Roger was the one who succeeded.

51
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And now I'm against the BCH side.

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So, wow.

53
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I mean, what's going to happen?

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What what's going to happen next in this conversation?

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You're just on the edge of your seat.

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I hope. And I have a Truthcoin.info I turned into my blog.

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So I have Truthcoin.info as my blog.

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Bitcoinhivemind.com is where the prediction markets project is now.

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And then along the way, in November 2015, I invented this sidechain technology
called Drivechain.

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And the site for that is at drivechain.info.

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And now I consider myself to just be an independent Bitcoin researcher, commentator.

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But I work on those three projects still.

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Nice, awesome.

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Vin, tell us about yourself, man.

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Where are you from and all that?

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So first off, Hotep Jesus, I want to just say to you that I really appreciate you
giving us this platform.

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But also something, you know, I feel that you have I'm really impressed by you that
I was initially very skeptical sort of of your appearance within the sort of
community of people,

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especially with the shut up and code, meaning that it seemed like you were trying to
get to take off.

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But I got to hand it to you going from shut up and code to actually putting on two
coders here to be able to speak is I think it speaks volumes about the character
that you have.

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So thank you for that. Thank you for that.

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So my name is Vin Armani.

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I'm the chief technology officer of Cointext.

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And as of late, besides my own businesses, which all accept cryptocurrency and have
been for years, and I earn my income in mostly BCH at the moment, but have been
earning income in cryptocurrency for years.

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Besides my own businesses, I'm now building out a lot of infrastructure for for
Bitcoin cash as it takes sort of its next step.

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So, so, yeah, I'm and, you know, crazy enough, like, as you say, there's not a lot
of acrimony between Paul and I am.

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And particularly, I think Paul is a brilliant guy, and he's been way far out ahead
of things.

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And, you know, honestly, it's kind of crazy because the stuff that I'm working on in
BCH right now are a lot of the things that he has been pushing for for years for
people to pay attention to.

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And that BTC hasn't really done a good job of that.

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So I kind of find it interesting.

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And it's going to be fun to debate with him and say why BCH is actually a better
platform for his own ideas.

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So I feel pretty confident about this, about this debate.

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Oh, I said, introduce yourself, I say, throw no blows there.

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Paul, I'm going to let you go ahead and go into your two minute opening
introduction.

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I think that's a good segue.

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All right. I have no idea how many minutes it is, but I had some things that I wrote
down and then it went on for a couple of

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pages. But OK, here's the deal.

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So to dethrone BTC, BCH needs to jump two hurdles.

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First, it has to actually be better.

89
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But that's not enough.

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It's sort of the elephant in the room is that it's not only does it have to be
better, but there's this collective action problem.

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So you need to have enough other people agree that it's better at the same time.

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Or it won't, it won't, you won't succeed in dethroning BTC.

93
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So if everyone watching this gets nothing out of this debate at all, I really hope
that you just open a new browser tab, type in the collective action problem and hit
enter.

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And then at least you have something to latch on to after all this is done.

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And I just it's it's discouraging to endure so much ignorance of an important thing.

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But you see, the thing is, like Esperanto is a better language than English, sort of
much more logically coherent.

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It's easier to learn.

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It's easier to spell.

99
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And even Spanish is better than English.

100
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But English is taking over when international people, if someone from Germany and
someone from France do a business deal, it's written down in English.

101
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And it's like English is just taking over, you know, people in India learn English,
even though there's no real reason for them to do that culturally.

102
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But they want to be able to speak English with all the other people who are speaking
it.

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So you have this big problem with BCH is not whether or not it's better or worse
than BTC.

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The big, the really big problem, the technical issues with BCH are just the tip of
the iceberg.

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The big problem is the network effects.

106
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So people want to go to the party that their friends are going to, they want to
speak the language that the people around them are speaking.

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And that's when people are introduced to Bitcoin.

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The first question they ask is who's accepting it, who values this, who I am going
to toil for this thing and who will pay me back in exchange for doing that.

109
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So what it all boils down to is who can host a more popular party, BTC or BCH,
because everyone wants to go to the party where the popular people are.

110
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And it's a circular, self-fulfilling prophecy.

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So the market cap of BCH, it's never, ever been as high as 25% of BTCs.

112
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It hovered around 10 for a while, and it is slowly crashing away from where it needs
to be, which is 100.

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And it's going down to 3.

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Now it can sort of barely do 3%.

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Transaction data, anyone can look up at bitinfocharts.com or whatever.

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It's like 10%, 20% of BTC, despite the fact that the BTC fees are lower.

117
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So the BCH block space just isn't as popular.

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Even when you put it on sale or on clearance, you still sell fewer units.

119
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So for any of the optimists for BCH, it cries out for some explanation, I think.

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It's not that the price is zero, but the prices are cheaper than BTC.

121
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So it points to the fact that people don't value it as much.

122
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And of course, people could change their mind, but I think it still cries out for
some explanation,

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especially when there's this looming network effect threatening to destroy
everything.

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Now, I don't know how far I'm going to roll over this two minutes, but this next
point,

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point number three, is pretty important.

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I call it this cheap talk point.

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It is a very popular debate, medium of exchange for a store of value that I find to
be misguided for several reasons.

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But I'm just going to skip to the big one, which is that I think we can put it back
on the right track

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of being a logical thing to talk about by saying that the merchant acceptance,

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which is the medium of exchange theme, and market capitalization, which is the store
of value theme,

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those are both metrics of how popular the party is.

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If ever all the merchants are accepting it, it seems like it's popular.

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If the market cap is very high, it seems like it's very popular with investors.

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The problem, though, is that the merchant adoption metric is cheap talk

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because it takes very little effort for a merchant to start accepting
cryptocurrency.

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And that's a very good thing for cryptocurrency and for the world,

137
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but it's a bad thing for anyone who wants to use that metric as their measurement of
cryptocurrency health.

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So the people who bid up the market cap to a very high number, they have to pay a
cost to do that.

139
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They're buying the coin with their money, their wages, with their stuff, their
purchasing power.

140
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And the signal they send is more reliable.

141
00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:36,400
But the merchant who sets up BitPay or whatever it is, BTC PayServer, whatever you
want to say it is,

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Coinbase has a thing, if they set up BitPay, they risk very little.

143
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But to add insult to injury, they almost always onboarded to BTC at the exact same
time.

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They onboarded to BTC and BCH at the same time.

145
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And this is just a specific instance of a more general problem,

146
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which is that a lot of the criteria upon which these two projects compete,

147
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they're not specific to one project or another.

148
00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:06,640
They could just be copied, all the technology can be copied, it's open source.

149
00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:16,800
The efforts to onboard more merchants, the marginal effort to onboard them to BTC is
high, but to BCH is...

150
00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,880
Once you're on one, you kind of onboard it to all the cryptos at once.

151
00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:28,400
The same goes for bad things, like developer capture, which I know is a critique of
BTC with justification.

152
00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:32,960
But there's no reason to say that a bad thing happening in BTC won't also happen.

153
00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:39,920
There's no reason to say, like, how are you going to say that Omri Sashay is not
also sort of capturing the project for himself,

154
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which is a critique that people make of BCH.

155
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So I've got some more, but I don't know how badly I blew over the two minutes.

156
00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,040
Yeah, you blew over that two minutes, man.

157
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So we'll go ahead.

158
00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:52,240
Great, great introduction, though.

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00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:53,840
We kind of know where your mind is.

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00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,000
Vin, you're on the clock, man.

161
00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:12,280
So I figured that this conversation would wind up being a sort of the difference in
perspective and perception between a trained economist and an entrepreneur.

162
00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:21,080
So my background, and the reason why I'm even a software developer is because I come
from a family of entrepreneurs, small business people,

163
00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:27,520
and on one side who now have family businesses that are huge in the area that I'm
from,

164
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:33,520
ended up going from a little taco stand to owning a huge percentage of land in the
city.

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00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:38,600
And my father on the other side, a tech entrepreneur, and I got a chance to come up
in those early days.

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00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:39,920
I'm 41 years old.

167
00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:45,680
So in the early days of Silicon Valley, to be able to come up there, he moved the
family up there to do his thing.

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00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:55,120
The reason I became a software developer and learned how to code was because there
were businesses that I wanted to do that as a young man, young 20-something-year-old
man,

169
00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,120
I didn't have the funds to be able to hire a developer.

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00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:09,040
And the amount of time that it would either be for me to raise those funds or to go
out and hire somebody, I also didn't know who the hell to hire because I didn't have
the skill to know who would be good or not.

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00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:11,280
It was enough to just teach myself how to code.

172
00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:17,840
And so at every step of the way, including learning Bitcoin front to back, it's all
been self-taught.

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00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:23,080
And I think that this is true, actually, for a lot of tech entrepreneurs, that that
was their entree.

174
00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:28,040
And so I always approached Bitcoin from the beginning with an entrepreneur's
mindset.

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00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:34,720
The reason I had heard about it, but the reason why I even decided to go out and get
any was, and people can know about my background,

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00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:44,320
that in 2012, I had spent several years in an all-cash business, all paper fiat, and
earning a lot of money.

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00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:46,040
So they're talking about stack and sats.

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00:13:46,040 --> 00:14:00,760
This was the first time where I was stacking bills and having to tie them up and put
them in a safe and having to have a good safe and then moving to anonymous private
vaults in Las Vegas and the whole nine.

179
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:06,000
And I ran across Bitcoin, and here was this idea that solved the problem that I
obviously had.

180
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:13,520
I was living in Vegas, so I could pay for a lot of things with paper fiat, but I
couldn't do all the things that I needed to do online.

181
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:23,040
I was like, oh, what is this thing and went and got it and said, OK, if this ever
takes off, this solves a big problem.

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00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:28,880
It solves a problem that I had, and I loved being in an all-cash business.

183
00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:38,680
As people who make their money in cash and spend it in cash know, you end up making
a lot more money when there's not a paper trail of how much you've earned.

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00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:44,160
I'm sure a lot of people in your audience are nodding their heads like, OK, yeah, I
feel you on that one.

185
00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:50,560
So this was an opportunity to be like, whoa, there's an electronic version of this
outside of the banks.

186
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,440
And then and I was like, OK, in 2012, there wasn't much.

187
00:14:54,440 --> 00:15:01,440
In 2014, when I started developing, the reason that I started developing to go back,
take this full circle was I was working.

188
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,080
I was like, oh, I want to do this little gaming app.

189
00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,960
I wonder if I could do some accounting on this this blockchain.

190
00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,560
I wonder I wonder how this would work to do it outside of the banking system.

191
00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,120
And from then, it's been about.

192
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:21,560
Which. What do I want to do entrepreneurially on Bitcoin?

193
00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:27,960
And for me, in terms of choosing between Bitcoin, BTC and BCH, it's very, very
simple.

194
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:40,400
And I think that you as like I hear you shilling your business and you're talking
about, you know, you're going to charge a fee for what you do, but there's already
fees that are happening on the blockchain.

195
00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:52,080
Right. So if and this is so very simple to understand why there will be a flip,
anybody who's an entrepreneur will understand this and even people who aren't will
understand why there's a flip.

196
00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,120
You've got a business. You make a dollar a pop.

197
00:15:55,520 --> 00:16:04,800
But these people are paying a total, let's say, of two dollars because they got to
pay a dollar fee to put it on, meaning they're willing to pay two dollars.

198
00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:15,600
If the fee on BCH is zero cents, that means you can just double your profit margin,
just double by using the same technology.

199
00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,120
Right. Because like you say, you don't care how much they they spend.

200
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,080
You don't care what the transaction is.

201
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,960
You make a dollar a pop, but they're willing to pay two.

202
00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:34,080
And so for me, what I've built in my business context, we take a fee on every
transaction and we we do support BTC.

203
00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:35,280
We absolutely do.

204
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:36,600
And we support Litecoin.

205
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:37,600
We support Dash.

206
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:38,640
We support Ravencoin.

207
00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:39,640
We support Decred.

208
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:41,400
Two things about BCH.

209
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,120
One, fees are incredibly low, so our profit margins stay solid.

210
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:50,280
And two, and this is the most important thing, the community is supporting.

211
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:55,000
When we launched, boom, tons of community support that we didn't ask for.

212
00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,560
And I got a chance to A, B it on to see BTC.

213
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:00,440
They were asking for all B cash.

214
00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:02,880
You should support BTC with it and everything.

215
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:04,560
So we dropped the BTC version.

216
00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:05,600
Guess what? Nobody cared.

217
00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:08,360
Dash. Oh, you should do it on Dash.

218
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:09,720
So we dropped the Dash version.

219
00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:11,080
Guess what? Nobody cared.

220
00:17:11,360 --> 00:17:12,440
LTC version.

221
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:13,200
Nobody cared.

222
00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:14,440
Ravencoin version.

223
00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:15,960
And they're trying to build their coin.

224
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:17,120
Nobody cared.

225
00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:23,120
And so when I look out at the landscape, what we're doing here is we're making a bet
on the future.

226
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:25,200
And so I'm betting as an entrepreneur.

227
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:32,400
I'm betting as an entrepreneur the same way that I would and have done many times,
the same way that I did when I was driving around the arts district.

228
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,480
In downtown Vegas in 2016.

229
00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,800
And I was like, saw a few little bars, saw things starting to pick up.

230
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:44,320
And I was like, oh, look at this amazing space over here that I could get for cheap.

231
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:50,240
And got it, put an art gallery, event space, the whole nine, six months later, the
area blew up.

232
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,320
Right. So, yeah, the arts district was nothing then.

233
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,280
But that's not I'm in this.

234
00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,600
This is I view this as a multi-generational project.

235
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,560
And I'm not interested in investing in what's hot now.

236
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:12,960
I'm interested in looking and finding the value in finding the underpriced real
estate and finding the area that's about to gentrify and seeing here are the
metrics.

237
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,280
And the metrics are actually really, really strong.

238
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:17,720
One, it can scale on chain.

239
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,520
It doesn't need the additional complexity.

240
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,720
Simplicity is always preferable in business.

241
00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:24,400
Always preferable.

242
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,800
Two, it's got op codes that have been re-enabled.

243
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,560
In other words, you can do more powerful transactions.

244
00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:42,240
The types of transactions that Paul has been writing and talking about for a very,
very long time and the types of things that enable Drivechains and all of this to be
much simpler.

245
00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:44,040
Those have been added in.

246
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:49,240
Things that BTC has been trying to add in, like Schnorr signatures, that's been
added in.

247
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,600
And that is all due to the culture that's there.

248
00:18:52,600 --> 00:19:00,520
Just the same way that it's due to the culture of Williamsburg, Brooklyn gentrifying
or Echo Park in L.A. gentrifying.

249
00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:02,240
And you see that cultural change.

250
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,040
And so for me, that's where my mind is at.

251
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:15,360
We could talk about the theoretical economics of it all, but I've got skin in the
game in terms of my business and my business is what feeds my family.

252
00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:19,720
And so the bets that I make are about where are we going to be 20 years from now?

253
00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:21,200
And it's not BTC.

254
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:23,760
Awesome.

255
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,760
Another great two minute introduction.

256
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,760
Hey, man, I'm just trying to I'm trying to even it out.

257
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:31,360
You know what I'm saying?

258
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:33,840
I love it.

259
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:34,400
I love it.

260
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:36,320
Paul, I know you got some thoughts.

261
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:37,720
You over there making notes.

262
00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:39,400
What's on that brain of yours?

263
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:40,080
Yeah, I got it.

264
00:19:40,360 --> 00:19:41,120
I got a lot of notes.

265
00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:43,880
Well, I mean, one thing I'm curious about is you mentioned a lot of things.

266
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:44,960
You mentioned low fees.

267
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,040
Community is very friendly.

268
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:55,640
The culture, you know, this specifically is kind of you have this metaphor, the
gentrifying metaphor, which is clever.

269
00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:56,400
I like that.

270
00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,440
But then you say it can scale on chain and the opcodes.

271
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:01,640
So that's like five things.

272
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:06,080
But it's really about the fees for you, I would guess.

273
00:20:06,120 --> 00:20:11,400
I mean, the community support that is, I think, just the result of the novelty,
right?

274
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:23,520
When people are new, they want, you know, if BCH is the underdog or it's new, you
want to try and foster the growth of the economy.

275
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,080
So you would be much more generous there than you would be.

276
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,680
You're making a very skeptical face, but I think you've made.

277
00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:32,840
Well, because one of the things is.

278
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:46,920
My support of BCH, I just went I just went in and said I was developing on BTC when
there was no BCH, right, and I had given up on building businesses on Bitcoin.

279
00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:51,880
I mean, I literally had it was my business, but I was like exploring Ethereum and
other things.

280
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:53,360
And it was my business partner.

281
00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:58,960
And the reason why was fees, because I said, look, that's what I'm trying to say is
the big thing for you is the fees.

282
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:11,600
Well, I think it's it's the big thing for for what Bitcoin in my perception is
supposed to be, which is a peer to peer cash system, which is cash.

283
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:24,080
So like when I when I first encountered when I first started developing on BTC,
there were there were zero fees like I could get transactions on with literally no
fee, like zero mining fee.

284
00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:25,720
I could get transactions on the chain.

285
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,000
And that was then I felt like, oh, that's like cash.

286
00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:36,520
When I hand over a hundred dollar bill, I don't have to hand over a hundred dollars
and another dollar or a hundred dollars and 10 cents.

287
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:38,760
So it was the analog to me.

288
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:45,960
That's what I'm saying is that cash is the cash analog is dependent upon those low
fees.

289
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,320
So so the novelty idea, I don't buy it.

290
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,000
I mean, obviously, I'm not it's not novel to me.

291
00:21:52,160 --> 00:22:00,880
But when you say that you posted that you're starting a thing and there was a lot of
interest from people, people were happy to read your Reddit post.

292
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:05,240
That kind of thing isn't possible when six billion people are using.

293
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:14,480
And you can't just post you can't just post something in new business, you'd be
there for like one billionth of a second and get buried by new posts.

294
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:20,120
But but what we're talking about the fundamental reasons I'm saying to go back to
the gentrifying neighborhood.

295
00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:24,000
I mean, right now, a billion people are not using any of these chains, period.

296
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:29,360
So right now, all of the businesses, right, all of the businesses now.

297
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,160
I mean, we know the names and we know the actual people.

298
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:37,440
If you mention like the big businesses, you and I both know them personally.

299
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:47,160
We're at the level now of like Echo Park when I first moved there in 2005, where I
would go down to the one little independent coffee shop, Chongo.

300
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:58,520
Right. And the people in these areas of Brooklyn are right now probably nodding
their heads like, oh, yeah, I remember when I first moved into that neighborhood in
Brooklyn, when it was first starting up, there was the one sneaker store and there
was the one coffee shop.

301
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,720
And you go in there and it's the same people every day.

302
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:02,880
Now, those places have blown up.

303
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:10,480
But you don't blow up unless you first have that strong community that's supporting
the business.

304
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,840
Fair enough. But can I hop in here really fast?

305
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:14,760
Just ask a question.

306
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,480
So we're talking about fees here and BCH has a low fee network.

307
00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:28,960
Does that mean when or if BCH reaches the adoption level as BTC is right now, that
the fees will stay the same?

308
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:30,520
That's right. That's right.

309
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:42,840
So I can test most of these points just for the record, but I'm just trying to
figure out, because you said a lot of things, but I think that really the one thing
that you care about, Vin, is really the fees.

310
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:51,280
But your explanation did help about you need that initial cohesive sort of incubator
group.

311
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:56,800
But don't you think that we did have that in BTC in earlier years?

312
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:58,880
Yeah. And where did that go?

313
00:23:58,880 --> 00:23:59,760
And where did that go?

314
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:07,440
You just explained yourself that that is a temporary, fundamentally, that is a
temporary transient state of affairs.

315
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:14,320
Well, it is not that it is a temporary transient state of affairs, because, for
instance, dance hall reggae, right?

316
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:15,520
It's all over the world.

317
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,440
The dance hall queen is Japanese, right?

318
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:24,040
So like the best dance hall female dancer in the world is Japanese.

319
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:24,800
I'm having trouble following this.

320
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:27,440
Well, hold on. What I'm saying is this.

321
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,240
You don't get a Japanese dance hall queen.

322
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:40,400
You don't get dance hall music traveling to every corner of the globe and morphing
into all different things when it hits England, when it hits Latin America, when it
hits Africa, when it hits Japan.

323
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:46,120
You don't get that unless you've got this core group making music for each other.

324
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:47,560
No, I understand that.

325
00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:51,640
But the thing is, Paul, they're still listening to the music.

326
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:53,840
They're still making the music.

327
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:55,800
They're still the core of it.

328
00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,720
And so what I'm saying is that even when it reaches a billion people, it's not like
Roger Ver is going to be gone.

329
00:25:00,977 --> 00:25:03,017
It's not like the people who are making moves now are going to be gone.

330
00:25:03,017 --> 00:25:06,137
They're just going to be that much more powerful, just like the same way Russell

331
00:25:06,137 --> 00:25:08,737
Simmons isn't gone from out of the hip hop game.

332
00:25:09,257 --> 00:25:13,977
So it's but yet it's not just, you know, they're not doing it out of their

333
00:25:13,977 --> 00:25:17,017
apartment anymore, but he's now he's flying around in a helicopter.

334
00:25:17,177 --> 00:25:21,337
So so my point is that you have to have that initial incubator.

335
00:25:21,977 --> 00:25:25,017
BTC, just there's no business in that.

336
00:25:25,497 --> 00:25:31,337
BTC, just there's no business, not on BTC, on Lightning, they're trying to do

337
00:25:31,337 --> 00:25:37,737
things, but there's just no opportunity for entrepreneurial spirit that's easy

338
00:25:37,737 --> 00:25:39,817
and simple within BTC.

339
00:25:39,817 --> 00:25:41,817
And part of that is due to the fees.

340
00:25:44,697 --> 00:25:52,377
Right, well, the technology to support lower fees is obviously something in the

341
00:25:52,377 --> 00:25:54,377
works, but that's a separate issue.

342
00:25:54,377 --> 00:25:56,857
I'm just trying to is you said a lot of things.

343
00:25:56,857 --> 00:26:00,137
I'm just saying like fees is the main thing for you.

344
00:26:00,137 --> 00:26:02,777
I don't it's difficult for me to understand.

345
00:26:03,177 --> 00:26:05,177
I mean, it's not it's not the main thing for me.

346
00:26:05,177 --> 00:26:07,097
Let me let me tell you what the main thing for me is.

347
00:26:07,097 --> 00:26:10,137
The main thing for me is the ability for entrepreneurs to profit.

348
00:26:11,177 --> 00:26:16,457
If we're talking about an economy that it fees is fees is a means to an end.

349
00:26:16,937 --> 00:26:22,057
So if we're talking about any economy, if you want to see an economy grow, you

350
00:26:22,057 --> 00:26:25,177
have to remove the friction for entrepreneurs to profit.

351
00:26:25,177 --> 00:26:29,177
And how you do that is you take the cost out and you increase their profit margins.

352
00:26:29,177 --> 00:26:34,457
Now, jurisdictions, governmental jurisdictions will do that by doing things like

353
00:26:34,457 --> 00:26:38,937
lowering fees that that entrepreneurs have to pay, like business license fees,

354
00:26:38,937 --> 00:26:45,977
lowering taxes, free parking in certain areas, all of these things to lower the

355
00:26:45,977 --> 00:26:50,777
cost so entrepreneurs will think it's a good move to move in there and that their

356
00:26:50,777 --> 00:26:55,977
profit margins will be high for for a business like Jotep Jesus is when he looks,

357
00:26:55,977 --> 00:27:01,737
if he really is looking and he sees, well, there's there's this amount of money on

358
00:27:01,737 --> 00:27:03,817
the table here with this number of people.

359
00:27:03,817 --> 00:27:06,457
But I make half the profits or over here.

360
00:27:06,457 --> 00:27:09,657
I could make double the profits, but there's only half the people.

361
00:27:10,457 --> 00:27:11,897
But this could grow over here.

362
00:27:13,017 --> 00:27:14,777
Then it becomes for an entrepreneur.

363
00:27:14,777 --> 00:27:16,217
That's a real choice.

364
00:27:16,857 --> 00:27:22,457
That's a real that's the reason why people will go into a depressed area and say,

365
00:27:22,457 --> 00:27:23,657
oh, well, you know what?

366
00:27:23,657 --> 00:27:29,737
I can't open my art gallery on the Las Vegas Strip, but I can open it in this little

367
00:27:29,737 --> 00:27:33,337
district here that the city had decided, oh, we got a depressed district.

368
00:27:33,337 --> 00:27:35,177
We'll name it the Arts District.

369
00:27:35,177 --> 00:27:37,817
We'll make it real easy for people to move in and start a business.

370
00:27:38,377 --> 00:27:44,457
That's what that's what BCH is doing culturally that BTC is not doing culturally.

371
00:27:44,457 --> 00:27:48,937
And so when I look at the future, I'm always going to bet on the people who are

372
00:27:49,737 --> 00:27:51,497
wanting to see entrepreneurs profit.

373
00:27:52,697 --> 00:27:56,937
Well, you know, that's a very interesting point that you're making about culture,

374
00:27:58,857 --> 00:28:00,057
even though I think it's a little vague.

375
00:28:00,057 --> 00:28:04,937
But don't you think like people will come in and they'll say one has higher fees
than

376
00:28:04,937 --> 00:28:05,417
the other.

377
00:28:08,857 --> 00:28:11,977
People will think like, you know, people know that like where there's smoke, there's

378
00:28:11,977 --> 00:28:12,297
fire.

379
00:28:12,297 --> 00:28:14,377
They'll be like, you know, there's no free lunch.

380
00:28:14,377 --> 00:28:15,657
Why are the fees lower?

381
00:28:16,537 --> 00:28:21,817
And when they investigate, they'll discover that the network is responsible for
processing

382
00:28:21,817 --> 00:28:22,777
all this information.

383
00:28:23,657 --> 00:28:27,897
And when the block size is higher, the network has to do more work.

384
00:28:27,897 --> 00:28:29,897
And so people will think, you know, I don't know.

385
00:28:31,017 --> 00:28:38,617
One has easier nodes to maintain, but higher layer one fees, which are not
necessarily

386
00:28:38,617 --> 00:28:41,977
at all the fee paid by the end user.

387
00:28:42,937 --> 00:28:48,057
But another one has lower layer one fees, but more difficult to run node.

388
00:28:48,057 --> 00:28:52,857
And they're going to look at the items that I mentioned earlier, the market
capitalization

389
00:28:52,857 --> 00:28:53,977
and the transaction rate.

390
00:28:53,977 --> 00:28:57,017
And they're going to say, well, you know, I'm new and I don't really know what's
going

391
00:28:57,017 --> 00:28:57,257
on.

392
00:28:57,257 --> 00:29:03,497
But it seems like, you know, BTC is where the party is at and they all sign up for
BTC.

393
00:29:04,137 --> 00:29:10,537
I mean, we don't see it's been it's been a very long time and we have not seen, you

394
00:29:10,537 --> 00:29:13,097
know, there's fewer transactions.

395
00:29:13,097 --> 00:29:14,777
It's not even equal.

396
00:29:14,777 --> 00:29:17,657
There's fewer transactions on BCH than BTC.

397
00:29:17,657 --> 00:29:25,177
So you have a theory that people will be drawn towards the lower fees and the more
welcoming

398
00:29:25,177 --> 00:29:25,737
environment.

399
00:29:27,737 --> 00:29:30,457
But yeah, it doesn't seem like that is the case.

400
00:29:31,817 --> 00:29:37,977
I do have the theory that the average individual, the average consumer, which is
what we're

401
00:29:37,977 --> 00:29:41,177
talking about if we're talking about global scale, right?

402
00:29:41,177 --> 00:29:46,937
At global scale, like ask people what the fee is for the Visa network.

403
00:29:46,937 --> 00:29:50,057
Like, how much does Visa itself actually get?

404
00:29:50,057 --> 00:29:55,577
Not like, shit, ask them how much the merchant gets or the merchant is being
charged.

405
00:29:55,577 --> 00:29:56,697
Most people don't know.

406
00:29:56,697 --> 00:29:59,737
If you ask them, what's the fee for Square?

407
00:29:59,737 --> 00:30:00,457
People don't know.

408
00:30:00,457 --> 00:30:01,577
They don't care.

409
00:30:01,657 --> 00:30:09,977
But yes, if it's essentially the same product, like I want to send $100 from here to
there

410
00:30:11,497 --> 00:30:18,857
and it's $100 US worth of value and it's either going to move the same speed because
it's

411
00:30:18,857 --> 00:30:22,857
still 10 minute blocks, it's going to be just as secure as it is.

412
00:30:22,857 --> 00:30:27,257
We could argue about is it theoretically as secure, but not a single Satoshi has
been

413
00:30:27,257 --> 00:30:29,897
lost on the BCH network or on BTC.

414
00:30:30,537 --> 00:30:36,057
And one of them is going to cost me a dollar to send and one of them is going to
cost me

415
00:30:36,057 --> 00:30:36,457
nothing.

416
00:30:37,497 --> 00:30:42,057
I think just simple economics says that the average consumer, that the trend for the
average

417
00:30:42,057 --> 00:30:47,577
consumer, the same product for less that's just as accessible, that what you're
going

418
00:30:47,577 --> 00:30:48,617
to see is people move there.

419
00:30:48,617 --> 00:30:54,057
What the problem is, and I want to address exactly what you said about the lack of
transactions

420
00:30:54,057 --> 00:30:55,817
because I will concede that point.

421
00:30:56,537 --> 00:31:04,217
But it's not a lack of transactions that are using Bitcoin in the way that I believe
Bitcoin

422
00:31:04,217 --> 00:31:07,417
should be used, in the way that I've always believed that it should be used.

423
00:31:07,417 --> 00:31:12,217
And in the way that Satoshi meant it to be used, which it was as peer to peer
electronic

424
00:31:12,217 --> 00:31:19,977
cash, a means of a buyer and a seller paying to one another without the need of a
trusted

425
00:31:19,977 --> 00:31:20,617
third party.

426
00:31:20,617 --> 00:31:24,057
That's the first, it's the first sentences of the white paper, right?

427
00:31:24,377 --> 00:31:27,497
That's the problem that this technology is solving.

428
00:31:27,497 --> 00:31:30,137
I don't believe that we have reached that at all.

429
00:31:30,137 --> 00:31:33,017
I don't believe that we have even begun to explore it.

430
00:31:33,897 --> 00:31:40,537
BTC has transactions, but so much of that, if not all of that, is exchanges, people
stacking

431
00:31:40,537 --> 00:31:42,537
sats, all of this.

432
00:31:42,537 --> 00:31:44,617
That's not without a trusted third party.

433
00:31:44,617 --> 00:31:46,217
That's not peer to peer cash.

434
00:31:47,097 --> 00:31:52,537
So in my mind, if we were to talk about the number of transactions that are actual
peer

435
00:31:52,537 --> 00:31:57,657
to peer cash, I would say it's probably even or more on BCH.

436
00:31:57,657 --> 00:32:05,817
And the fact that BTC is getting full without being peer to peer cash, I think says
a lot.

437
00:32:05,817 --> 00:32:11,577
Well, you know, I don't know, you're putting a lot in this peer to peer cash theme.

438
00:32:11,577 --> 00:32:14,777
And then before that, you draw this big equivalence.

439
00:32:14,777 --> 00:32:19,017
You say they're exactly the same, but one has cheaper fees, so therefore it's
better.

440
00:32:19,017 --> 00:32:21,417
And obviously, that type of argument is very intuitive.

441
00:32:21,417 --> 00:32:27,177
But as I've been trying to explain, they're not the same, and people don't want the
cheaper

442
00:32:27,177 --> 00:32:27,817
one.

443
00:32:27,817 --> 00:32:30,937
Just empirically, they're paying more for the more expensive one.

444
00:32:31,657 --> 00:32:33,497
So it's got to be something.

445
00:32:34,057 --> 00:32:38,617
I think that, as I mentioned in the opening remarks, that that cries out for some
kind

446
00:32:38,617 --> 00:32:41,337
of explanation from the people who are optimists about BCH.

447
00:32:41,337 --> 00:32:45,177
There's another thing I have to say, which is that this argument, I think, opens
itself

448
00:32:45,177 --> 00:32:47,417
up to a big infinite regress.

449
00:32:47,417 --> 00:32:55,977
And without complexifying that, a funny way to think about it is BSV is sort of
trolling

450
00:32:55,977 --> 00:32:56,377
you guys.

451
00:32:56,377 --> 00:32:58,857
It's a turnabout is fair play kind of thing.

452
00:32:58,857 --> 00:33:04,137
You say we made these blocks bigger, the fees are lower, and they made the blocks
even bigger,

453
00:33:04,137 --> 00:33:05,657
and now the fees are even lower.

454
00:33:05,657 --> 00:33:10,777
And now by your own logic, everyone should desert BCH and go to BSV.

455
00:33:10,777 --> 00:33:18,457
And it goes on forever, because someone should make a BSV squared that has still
more gargantuan

456
00:33:18,457 --> 00:33:18,857
blocks.

457
00:33:18,857 --> 00:33:24,057
And then, according to the logic that you've outlined, that fees are the single
factor,

458
00:33:24,057 --> 00:33:28,697
and there's absolute complete neutrality and all these other factors, such as the
popularity

459
00:33:28,697 --> 00:33:30,697
of the party, which is what I think is the dominant factor.

460
00:33:31,577 --> 00:33:32,537
Well, I'm sorry.

461
00:33:32,537 --> 00:33:39,177
But then people should just keep deserting the network for a still larger one
forever.

462
00:33:39,177 --> 00:33:43,577
That's the logic that you've outlined, which is why I was so interested in it
before.

463
00:33:44,377 --> 00:33:47,657
No, see, I don't think that's the case.

464
00:33:47,657 --> 00:33:53,737
First off, it's just factually incorrect that the BSV fees are not lower than the
BCH fees

465
00:33:54,297 --> 00:33:55,657
in terms of minimum fee.

466
00:33:55,657 --> 00:33:59,337
And the minimum BCH fee is not lower than the minimum BTC fee.

467
00:33:59,897 --> 00:34:04,377
All three of them have the same minimum fee, which is one Satoshi per byte.

468
00:34:05,257 --> 00:34:07,097
I don't think that necessarily needs to be the case.

469
00:34:07,097 --> 00:34:08,137
It could be lower.

470
00:34:08,137 --> 00:34:08,857
No, sure.

471
00:34:08,857 --> 00:34:12,137
But what I'm saying is, at this very moment, right now...

472
00:34:12,137 --> 00:34:15,337
But one Satoshi per 250 byte transaction, theoretically.

473
00:34:16,057 --> 00:34:18,377
No, I'm saying, theoretically, you could.

474
00:34:18,377 --> 00:34:23,177
But what I'm saying is that on all three of those networks, the fact of the matter
is

475
00:34:23,177 --> 00:34:29,977
that right now, if I broadcast a transaction, the minimum miner fee that I need to
broadcast

476
00:34:29,977 --> 00:34:35,257
to all three, BTC, BCH, and BSV, is one Satoshi per byte.

477
00:34:35,257 --> 00:34:36,697
Now, if I broadcast...

478
00:34:36,697 --> 00:34:38,777
The difference is, if I broadcast...

479
00:34:38,777 --> 00:34:41,497
That's why that's not important, as you're about to explain.

480
00:34:41,497 --> 00:34:42,617
If I broadcast...

481
00:34:42,617 --> 00:34:46,617
Well, but it goes to why the fees are high.

482
00:34:46,617 --> 00:34:50,217
It's not a rationalization of like, oh, well, it gives more security and all of
that.

483
00:34:50,217 --> 00:34:51,577
That's after the fact.

484
00:34:51,577 --> 00:34:57,097
The reason why the fees are high, like the objective reason why the fees are high,
is

485
00:34:57,097 --> 00:35:03,737
if I broadcast a one Satoshi per byte transaction to the BTC network right now, I
don't know

486
00:35:03,737 --> 00:35:08,057
what the mempool is like right now, but chances are, it's not getting confirmed for
hours.

487
00:35:08,697 --> 00:35:13,337
Many, many blocks are going to go by before I get it confirmed, if ever.

488
00:35:13,977 --> 00:35:15,977
And that's because the blocks are full.

489
00:35:16,697 --> 00:35:18,617
And so it's just...

490
00:35:18,617 --> 00:35:19,737
And this is not for you, Paul.

491
00:35:19,737 --> 00:35:20,457
This is obviously...

492
00:35:20,457 --> 00:35:24,297
But just for the people watching, because we're talking about these fees.

493
00:35:24,857 --> 00:35:27,897
An analogy that I like to use, and you can refute this if you think that this is not

494
00:35:27,897 --> 00:35:33,257
a good analogy, but I like to use the idea of people waiting in line for a bus,
right?

495
00:35:33,257 --> 00:35:35,097
And everybody needs to go to work.

496
00:35:35,097 --> 00:35:37,017
And it's a 20-seat bus.

497
00:35:37,017 --> 00:35:43,817
And so long as there's not more than 20 people, as the bus shows up, everybody gets
on.

498
00:35:43,817 --> 00:35:45,737
They pay their fare, no problem.

499
00:35:45,737 --> 00:35:47,097
That's one Satoshi per byte.

500
00:35:48,057 --> 00:35:50,137
Now, 10 more people get in line.

501
00:35:50,697 --> 00:35:52,377
Everybody needs to get to work.

502
00:35:52,377 --> 00:35:55,417
Everybody needs to get on the next bus, or else they're going to be late.

503
00:35:55,417 --> 00:35:56,937
Maybe they get fired, whatever it is.

504
00:35:56,937 --> 00:35:58,457
There's only 20 seats.

505
00:35:58,457 --> 00:36:03,657
So what you very well might have is you might have somebody who's number 25 go up to
the

506
00:36:03,657 --> 00:36:07,257
person at number one and be like, hey, look, I will give you $50.

507
00:36:07,817 --> 00:36:09,657
Yeah, it'd be bid up to the reservation price.

508
00:36:09,657 --> 00:36:10,137
I agree.

509
00:36:10,137 --> 00:36:12,857
It'd be a motto of this explanation.

510
00:36:12,857 --> 00:36:14,617
I understand what you're saying.

511
00:36:14,617 --> 00:36:14,937
Right.

512
00:36:14,937 --> 00:36:16,617
So that's what I'm saying.

513
00:36:16,617 --> 00:36:22,617
This is for people out there to try to take it down a notch, the people watching,
right?

514
00:36:23,097 --> 00:36:29,017
To take it to something that they know that's not some sort of economic theory or
jargon,

515
00:36:29,017 --> 00:36:31,337
but something that they might have experienced, right?

516
00:36:33,097 --> 00:36:35,497
So you have two choices, really.

517
00:36:35,497 --> 00:36:41,097
The choices that you have, and the choice that BCH has taken, is BCH looks at that
situation.

518
00:36:41,097 --> 00:36:47,577
And BCH says, OK, we're going to increase the maximum size of the bus.

519
00:36:47,577 --> 00:36:50,457
And we're going to increase that maximum seatage to 50.

520
00:36:51,417 --> 00:36:55,177
Now, if there's 10 people waiting in line, they all get on.

521
00:36:55,177 --> 00:36:57,577
If there's 20 people waiting in line, they all get on.

522
00:36:57,577 --> 00:36:59,737
If there's 50 people waiting in line, they all get on.

523
00:37:00,537 --> 00:37:01,897
And that's where it's at.

524
00:37:01,897 --> 00:37:06,137
What BTC has decided to do is to say, oh, no, no.

525
00:37:06,137 --> 00:37:14,217
It's actually much better to have a market of people having to pay more for that
because

526
00:37:14,937 --> 00:37:19,337
it's basically a little different situation where they actually have to pay more to
get on the bus.

527
00:37:19,977 --> 00:37:23,177
They're bribing the bus driver, which is the minors.

528
00:37:23,177 --> 00:37:24,457
And so they're like, no, no, no.

529
00:37:24,457 --> 00:37:29,337
It's much better for the bus driver if there's this situation going on where people
are trying

530
00:37:29,337 --> 00:37:33,337
to bribe him to get on, and he doesn't just get the bare minimum.

531
00:37:33,337 --> 00:37:35,017
It's much better for him, which it is.

532
00:37:35,017 --> 00:37:35,497
That's true.

533
00:37:37,897 --> 00:37:47,657
But we are developing an autonomous multi-hop drone system that is going to be free
and allow

534
00:37:47,657 --> 00:37:50,137
everybody who you will...

535
00:37:50,137 --> 00:37:51,417
Here's what you'll do.

536
00:37:51,417 --> 00:37:57,017
You'll simply just throw your bag onto the bus, and it will sit there.

537
00:37:57,737 --> 00:38:01,417
And then you will be able to, as long as your bag is on the bus, you will be able to
take

538
00:38:01,417 --> 00:38:08,457
the multi-hop Uber drone system that we are building, and you'll be ready in a few
months.

539
00:38:08,457 --> 00:38:08,777
I was wondering where this was going.

540
00:38:08,777 --> 00:38:12,857
But in a few months, Paul, it'll be ready to go in eight months.

541
00:38:12,857 --> 00:38:15,577
Oh, no, I agree with you about the software deadlines.

542
00:38:16,057 --> 00:38:17,257
I once said something about...

543
00:38:17,817 --> 00:38:22,377
I said, if we got someone competent, then we could co-drive Chin up in like four
months

544
00:38:22,377 --> 00:38:22,857
or something.

545
00:38:22,857 --> 00:38:24,857
And then it's like, yeah, never...

546
00:38:26,537 --> 00:38:27,817
Forget about software deadlines.

547
00:38:27,817 --> 00:38:29,257
They're a total waste of time.

548
00:38:31,177 --> 00:38:33,017
But you snuck a lot of things in there.

549
00:38:33,017 --> 00:38:38,857
I mean, for starters, you tried to make this description for the layperson, but
don't you

550
00:38:38,857 --> 00:38:39,337
think that...

551
00:38:39,337 --> 00:38:40,697
I don't really think it would really...

552
00:38:40,697 --> 00:38:43,657
I don't think that strategy is going to work, because don't you think the layperson
is going

553
00:38:43,657 --> 00:38:49,177
to be thinking to themselves, you can't just keep making a bus longer and longer.

554
00:38:49,177 --> 00:38:51,737
Eventually, it won't fit in a tunnel or whatever.

555
00:38:51,737 --> 00:38:52,697
They're going to be like...

556
00:38:52,697 --> 00:38:57,337
The average layperson is going to be already seeing the flaw in this infinitely
growing

557
00:38:57,337 --> 00:38:57,977
bus plan.

558
00:38:57,977 --> 00:38:59,097
You need more steel.

559
00:38:59,097 --> 00:38:59,657
You need like...

560
00:39:00,297 --> 00:39:01,737
Oh, Paul, you are not...

561
00:39:03,257 --> 00:39:05,977
You so can't be the average layperson.

562
00:39:07,097 --> 00:39:09,417
You're going to scale to global levels.

563
00:39:09,417 --> 00:39:11,257
You just did a thing saying that 30...

564
00:39:11,337 --> 00:39:13,017
You made a lot of points, but I'm just wondering if...

565
00:39:14,377 --> 00:39:18,137
30% of Americans think that the US dollar is backed by gold.

566
00:39:18,137 --> 00:39:23,577
And you really think that those same people are going to be concerned about what's
going

567
00:39:23,577 --> 00:39:24,937
on with the block size?

568
00:39:24,937 --> 00:39:25,337
No.

569
00:39:25,337 --> 00:39:28,297
What they care about is from here to there.

570
00:39:28,857 --> 00:39:29,337
That's it.

571
00:39:29,337 --> 00:39:31,257
Very good point that they will not...

572
00:39:31,257 --> 00:39:33,337
And nor should they care about...

573
00:39:34,057 --> 00:39:39,657
I believe in Friedrich Hayek and in his Nobel winning speech, he said, we should all
be

574
00:39:39,657 --> 00:39:43,497
thinking about less about what we're doing, and we should have more specialization.

575
00:39:43,497 --> 00:39:44,617
I totally am on board.

576
00:39:44,617 --> 00:39:45,977
So laypersons will not...

577
00:39:45,977 --> 00:39:53,817
But layperson is choosing to support by recognizing it as money or investing it, BTC
or BCH.

578
00:39:54,697 --> 00:39:57,817
They're going to be thinking, what's the catch?

579
00:39:57,817 --> 00:40:01,177
You know, they're going to be thinking what BCH figured all this out, and they have
a

580
00:40:01,177 --> 00:40:02,537
magically growing bus forever.

581
00:40:02,537 --> 00:40:05,497
And they're going to be like, I don't know, something about that sounds kind of
fishy.

582
00:40:06,297 --> 00:40:07,017
And I don't think...

583
00:40:07,017 --> 00:40:12,137
I think that layperson, when their own money is at stake, they suddenly gain many IQ
points.

584
00:40:12,137 --> 00:40:13,737
And the other thing is you have this weird...

585
00:40:13,737 --> 00:40:14,457
Because you said a lot...

586
00:40:14,457 --> 00:40:15,817
You're trying to make a lot of points.

587
00:40:15,817 --> 00:40:19,897
The thing about layers is you can buy the seat on the bus, but it's kind of a little

588
00:40:19,897 --> 00:40:20,537
bit more like...

589
00:40:21,737 --> 00:40:26,057
It's like maybe real estate in the town or something, or like fitting many people,
or

590
00:40:26,057 --> 00:40:28,377
like the bus seat has like a little tower in it.

591
00:40:28,377 --> 00:40:31,977
You could fit lots and lots of people in this tower somehow.

592
00:40:32,137 --> 00:40:36,217
This analogy starts to break down at a certain point, as all analogies do.

593
00:40:36,217 --> 00:40:42,137
But layer one, there are many ways of getting the fee to zero.

594
00:40:43,337 --> 00:40:52,617
One is with just adding in trust in the custodial wallet or a website, which of
course is anathema

595
00:40:52,617 --> 00:40:53,177
to everything.

596
00:40:53,177 --> 00:40:55,897
And everyone will hate that, but there's...

597
00:40:55,897 --> 00:40:57,337
Like coinbitcap.com.

598
00:40:58,057 --> 00:41:01,657
Yeah, but see, you're the one who's saying that fees are this big thing.

599
00:41:01,977 --> 00:41:04,137
You can drive the fees to zero.

600
00:41:04,137 --> 00:41:05,897
You can also do lots of things.

601
00:41:05,897 --> 00:41:11,737
There are many other technologies in the work, including Lightning Network and state
chains

602
00:41:11,737 --> 00:41:15,737
are too, but I really don't want to share all too much of my own stuff.

603
00:41:15,737 --> 00:41:19,657
But with Drivechain, you can have basically an optional extension block that
simulates

604
00:41:19,657 --> 00:41:26,377
BCH, and I can just steal all the BCH ideas, and it will be with BTC, and that kind
of

605
00:41:26,377 --> 00:41:29,497
takes the conversation in a strange direction because you're sort of almost...

606
00:41:29,577 --> 00:41:33,657
At that point, I'm kind of endorsing the BCH ideas by stealing them.

607
00:41:33,657 --> 00:41:46,057
But nonetheless, the layer twos can be in numerous forms, and anything that has been

608
00:41:46,057 --> 00:41:51,977
invented can be a layer two on top of Bitcoin.

609
00:41:51,977 --> 00:41:56,777
And so I'm just trying to figure out what your objective sort of is.

610
00:41:56,857 --> 00:42:01,897
It's just the lowest fees, then custodial wallet will be zero fees.

611
00:42:01,897 --> 00:42:02,457
Can I hop in?

612
00:42:03,817 --> 00:42:05,977
The example you gave with the bus, people getting on, and-

613
00:42:05,977 --> 00:42:07,417
I just want to say one more thing.

614
00:42:07,417 --> 00:42:11,337
You said low fees, and you said you didn't care at all about any of these other
factors

615
00:42:11,337 --> 00:42:12,777
about security or whatever.

616
00:42:13,817 --> 00:42:14,457
No, that's right.

617
00:42:14,457 --> 00:42:15,657
That's exactly where I wanted to go.

618
00:42:16,857 --> 00:42:17,817
That's exactly where I'm going.

619
00:42:18,457 --> 00:42:21,897
You have this bus, you have all these people on the bus, but the more people you put
on

620
00:42:21,897 --> 00:42:23,337
the bus, the less secure we are, right?

621
00:42:24,697 --> 00:42:25,197
The bus-

622
00:42:25,677 --> 00:42:27,357
That depends on a lot of things.

623
00:42:27,357 --> 00:42:30,797
It's not going to maneuver the same as a smaller bus.

624
00:42:30,797 --> 00:42:33,517
The bigger the bus, the faster you go, the harder it is to maneuver, which means-

625
00:42:33,517 --> 00:42:35,437
Yeah, no, absolutely.

626
00:42:35,437 --> 00:42:36,717
See, this is what I'm talking about, Vin.

627
00:42:37,437 --> 00:42:39,597
They're going to be thinking like, what's the deal with this bus?

628
00:42:39,597 --> 00:42:41,517
Do we really just keep doing that forever?

629
00:42:41,517 --> 00:42:41,997
Well, right.

630
00:42:41,997 --> 00:42:44,317
So that's my question, right?

631
00:42:45,917 --> 00:42:46,957
Cannot keep doing that.

632
00:42:46,957 --> 00:42:54,877
If the cock size is bigger, is it more susceptible to disease?

633
00:42:54,957 --> 00:42:57,997
Is it more susceptible to being compromised?

634
00:42:57,997 --> 00:43:06,077
Well, let me answer this because I'm going to concede to the idea that Bitcoin
cannot

635
00:43:06,077 --> 00:43:12,237
scale as it currently is, unless we discover some amazing new technology.

636
00:43:12,957 --> 00:43:15,997
It's certainly contrary to what the BSV people say.

637
00:43:17,037 --> 00:43:22,317
I do not believe, and I don't think that anybody reasonable in BCH believes that BCH

638
00:43:22,317 --> 00:43:30,477
can scale or any Bitcoin network can scale to global transactions of everybody, that

639
00:43:30,477 --> 00:43:35,517
we could move the whole financial system onto a blockchain like the crazies in BSV
think.

640
00:43:36,397 --> 00:43:37,677
That's unreasonable.

641
00:43:38,797 --> 00:43:42,077
But the question is not, can it scale to global levels?

642
00:43:42,077 --> 00:43:46,877
The question is, can it scale to the level that it can effectively handle the
traffic

643
00:43:46,877 --> 00:43:53,677
that is here now and that it can move forward 10 years from now?

644
00:43:54,317 --> 00:43:59,517
And again, I think that we are still so early that people thinking we're going to
get hyper

645
00:43:59,517 --> 00:44:04,317
Bitcoinization and everybody's going to be using Bitcoin in even 20 years, I think
is

646
00:44:04,317 --> 00:44:05,277
naive.

647
00:44:05,277 --> 00:44:06,717
I think it's silly.

648
00:44:06,717 --> 00:44:11,837
I think even people who think that there's going to be hyper Bitcoinization who are
our

649
00:44:11,837 --> 00:44:16,317
age and who think that they're going to see it in their lifetime, I think that's a
utopian

650
00:44:16,317 --> 00:44:17,197
vision, right?

651
00:44:17,197 --> 00:44:19,997
Because this is a brand new form of things.

652
00:44:19,997 --> 00:44:22,557
I look at this as a multi-generational project.

653
00:44:22,557 --> 00:44:29,197
And so I want to bring up to you, to both of you, the words of Adam Back in 2015,
who

654
00:44:29,197 --> 00:44:37,037
said to Gavin Andreessen, this is Adam Back, CEO of Blockstream, probably the top
thought

655
00:44:37,037 --> 00:44:42,797
leader in BTC right now, cited in the Bitcoin white paper.

656
00:44:42,797 --> 00:44:47,677
The only person who's still active in BTC, his name is in the Bitcoin white paper,
Adam

657
00:44:47,677 --> 00:44:48,237
Back.

658
00:44:48,237 --> 00:44:50,957
And he says, cited by Satoshi.

659
00:44:50,957 --> 00:44:51,597
And he says-

660
00:44:51,597 --> 00:44:52,477
He's actually not.

661
00:44:52,477 --> 00:44:54,077
Well, yeah, he's in the body.

662
00:44:54,077 --> 00:44:55,117
He's not in the citations.

663
00:44:56,237 --> 00:44:57,357
But yeah, you're right.

664
00:44:57,357 --> 00:44:59,117
He's mentioned by name in the-

665
00:44:59,117 --> 00:45:00,157
I've got it in front of me.

666
00:45:00,157 --> 00:45:01,277
I'm pretty sure he's in the citations.

667
00:45:01,277 --> 00:45:02,157
Yeah, he's in the citations.

668
00:45:02,157 --> 00:45:02,477
You're right.

669
00:45:02,477 --> 00:45:03,037
Yeah.

670
00:45:03,037 --> 00:45:04,397
Oh, thank you, Paul.

671
00:45:04,397 --> 00:45:04,637
Yeah.

672
00:45:05,917 --> 00:45:08,077
So I'm pretty sure I looked at it.

673
00:45:08,077 --> 00:45:08,317
All right.

674
00:45:08,317 --> 00:45:08,557
All right.

675
00:45:08,557 --> 00:45:10,557
So what are you quoting him saying?

676
00:45:10,557 --> 00:45:14,957
What he says to Gavin is, in 2015, when the scaling debate is going on, he says,
Gavin,

677
00:45:14,957 --> 00:45:16,317
what about this idea?

678
00:45:16,317 --> 00:45:18,717
We increase the block size to two megs now.

679
00:45:19,517 --> 00:45:22,557
We increase it to four megs two years from now.

680
00:45:22,557 --> 00:45:25,597
And then in another two years, we increase it to eight megs.

681
00:45:26,157 --> 00:45:30,557
Now, if that had been done, right now, BTC would have eight megs.

682
00:45:30,557 --> 00:45:32,397
The other thing that would be true, Paul-

683
00:45:32,397 --> 00:45:34,317
I know it would, but this is a tautology.

684
00:45:34,317 --> 00:45:35,277
Like, if it's-

685
00:45:35,277 --> 00:45:35,677
Hold on.

686
00:45:35,677 --> 00:45:39,997
The other thing that would be true is we wouldn't be having this debate because all

687
00:45:39,997 --> 00:45:47,997
of us who are in BCH would still be on BTC because it only takes about four megs of
total

688
00:45:47,997 --> 00:45:53,437
traffic to encompass, even at the height, to encompass BTC, BCH, and BSV, all of the

689
00:45:53,437 --> 00:45:54,717
traffic right now.

690
00:45:54,717 --> 00:46:00,157
If BTC was at four megs, there would be no BCH, and there would be no BSV.

691
00:46:00,157 --> 00:46:03,917
So the thing is, at four megs, security is not reduced.

692
00:46:03,917 --> 00:46:06,157
At eight megs, security is not reduced.

693
00:46:06,957 --> 00:46:07,677
Oh, well, OK.

694
00:46:07,757 --> 00:46:09,117
Well, I don't agree with that last part.

695
00:46:09,117 --> 00:46:14,157
But all of what you said was very straightforward and tautological, right?

696
00:46:14,157 --> 00:46:16,477
If we moved to eight megabytes, we'd have eight megabytes.

697
00:46:16,477 --> 00:46:17,117
That's fine.

698
00:46:17,677 --> 00:46:17,997
Sure.

699
00:46:19,037 --> 00:46:24,637
Probably, if BTC had been more accommodating of counterparty, we would never have
even

700
00:46:24,637 --> 00:46:29,677
had Ethereum because the only thing that Ethereum was really used for was the ERC-20
tokens,

701
00:46:29,677 --> 00:46:33,917
which Bitcoin had long before in various forms.

702
00:46:34,637 --> 00:46:38,077
MasterCoin, whatever, colored coins, and numerous forms of...

703
00:46:39,517 --> 00:46:42,397
So I agree with a lot of that, but I don't see the relevance because...

704
00:46:44,077 --> 00:46:44,717
I'll tell you.

705
00:46:44,717 --> 00:46:47,117
Because I think you linked it to that last conclusion part.

706
00:46:47,117 --> 00:46:52,077
No, the relevance goes back to what I'm talking about, about culture and the
decisions that

707
00:46:52,077 --> 00:46:53,757
are being made, right?

708
00:46:53,757 --> 00:46:55,757
Because you just brought up a very good point.

709
00:46:55,757 --> 00:47:01,917
You know, you said, had the leadership, and there is leadership, had the
leadership...

710
00:47:01,917 --> 00:47:02,557
Let's get this out.

711
00:47:02,557 --> 00:47:04,957
The people who say that there are no leaders, that's...

712
00:47:04,957 --> 00:47:05,677
They're crazy, right?

713
00:47:05,677 --> 00:47:06,317
So silly.

714
00:47:09,117 --> 00:47:13,357
So as you just said, and I agree with you, had the leadership been more
accommodating

715
00:47:13,357 --> 00:47:15,837
to counterparty, there would be no Ethereum.

716
00:47:16,637 --> 00:47:18,477
And I just said, and I think that we can both...

717
00:47:19,037 --> 00:47:20,637
But I think, I suspect, yes.

718
00:47:20,637 --> 00:47:22,237
You suspect, right?

719
00:47:22,237 --> 00:47:22,877
You suspect.

720
00:47:23,597 --> 00:47:25,997
I think there was a market for like a Bitcoin competitor.

721
00:47:25,997 --> 00:47:27,917
That was like a power vacuum.

722
00:47:28,637 --> 00:47:32,077
But there's a chance that they wouldn't be...

723
00:47:32,077 --> 00:47:35,837
That Ethereum wouldn't be threatening BTC.

724
00:47:35,837 --> 00:47:39,677
It could have been something even crazier, like whatever, I don't know.

725
00:47:40,397 --> 00:47:43,357
But there was a decision not to accommodate counterparty.

726
00:47:43,357 --> 00:47:47,357
There was a decision not to just poo-poo Vitalik.

727
00:47:47,357 --> 00:47:52,957
There was a decision to just immediately deny, even though Adam Back said that it
was probably

728
00:47:52,957 --> 00:47:55,917
a good idea to raise the block size, to deny raising the block size.

729
00:47:56,157 --> 00:47:58,637
And he just says, how about this idea?

730
00:47:58,637 --> 00:48:01,277
He doesn't say necessarily it's a wonderful idea.

731
00:48:02,397 --> 00:48:07,277
Well, he's made his position very clear in writing and interviews that, you know.

732
00:48:08,477 --> 00:48:12,957
I mean, I think that there's a level of self-interest at this point for him to
not...

733
00:48:12,957 --> 00:48:14,637
I think that for him to say that now...

734
00:48:14,637 --> 00:48:16,717
But I'm not going to judge Adam Back's...

735
00:48:18,477 --> 00:48:20,957
We're maneuvering a little bit away, though.

736
00:48:20,957 --> 00:48:24,797
I thought I had your logic kind of nailed down and now it's sort of slipping out.

737
00:48:25,117 --> 00:48:29,677
No, I'm not maneuvering away at all, because I said that initially what we're doing
here

738
00:48:29,677 --> 00:48:31,997
is we're making a bet on the future.

739
00:48:32,717 --> 00:48:39,117
And that part of the way that I bet on the future of a community, of an industry, of
an economy,

740
00:48:39,117 --> 00:48:45,517
is that when it's early, of a music scene, is I look at the culture and I look at
the

741
00:48:45,517 --> 00:48:49,037
decisions that are being made by the people who are the thought leaders in that
culture.

742
00:48:49,677 --> 00:48:55,357
And the decision to just poo-poo Vitalik gives you a competitor.

743
00:48:55,357 --> 00:48:59,197
The decision to not nominate a counterparty gives you a competitor.

744
00:48:59,197 --> 00:49:02,077
The decision to just simply ignore raising the block size,

745
00:49:02,077 --> 00:49:05,277
which you could do safely, gives you a competitor in BCH.

746
00:49:05,277 --> 00:49:08,077
So, any group...

747
00:49:08,077 --> 00:49:13,917
They're not very healthy competitors, despite the immense luck that they've had.

748
00:49:14,397 --> 00:49:16,637
They enjoyed some success, but they really are not...

749
00:49:19,917 --> 00:49:23,037
I don't see them as being very healthy competitors.

750
00:49:23,037 --> 00:49:28,397
What is the proof behind what you said, Vin?

751
00:49:28,397 --> 00:49:32,957
You said at four, eight megs, there's no security compromise.

752
00:49:32,957 --> 00:49:33,437
Why?

753
00:49:33,437 --> 00:49:33,917
Right.

754
00:49:33,917 --> 00:49:35,757
Before you said it made no difference.

755
00:49:35,757 --> 00:49:36,797
There was no downside at all.

756
00:49:36,797 --> 00:49:42,557
It was just merely cheaper and they were absolutely identical.

757
00:49:42,557 --> 00:49:44,477
A hundred dollars being sent over the network,

758
00:49:45,197 --> 00:49:47,597
and you said one is just cheaper and so it would be better.

759
00:49:47,597 --> 00:49:48,637
But now you're saying that...

760
00:49:50,237 --> 00:49:52,557
You're acknowledging that when the block size increases,

761
00:49:52,557 --> 00:49:55,837
there's some mysterious security downside.

762
00:49:56,637 --> 00:49:57,437
No, I didn't.

763
00:49:57,629 --> 00:50:18,629
Oh, yeah, at a certain level, certainly, but we've seen that already in BCH, that
with the current research, the implementations as they stand, it really peaks out at
the network not being able to propagate blocks at about 22 megs, at about 22 megs.

764
00:50:19,629 --> 00:50:24,629
You don't have a fundamental disagreement. You just think someone picked the wrong
number. Satoshi, who put the...

765
00:50:24,629 --> 00:50:25,629
No, no, no.

766
00:50:25,629 --> 00:50:31,629
You just think he just picked the wrong number. But you fundamentally agree that
there should be some limit.

767
00:50:32,629 --> 00:50:40,629
No, no. There's going to be a limit. There's going to be a technical limit. There's
going to be a limit at which the network becomes unstable.

768
00:50:40,629 --> 00:50:47,629
What I'm saying is we are so far from that limit organically that it's almost a moot
point, number one.

769
00:50:48,629 --> 00:51:14,629
And number two, that getting to that limit will necessarily... If we had 20 megs of
traffic continuously on any Bitcoin network, the scope, the breadth of the amount of
people in the Bitcoin economy and the amount of capital that would be available to
solve the problem of taking the next step would be there.

770
00:51:14,629 --> 00:51:28,629
It's almost like saying it's got a town of a thousand people. We need to worry about
putting a freeway in here and that it's going to be a problem for the roads if we
have a million people moving through here. But we don't.

771
00:51:29,629 --> 00:51:41,629
Right now, the blocks on BCH are less than... Like I said, if you took BTC, BCH and
BSV all together and slammed them all together, you still couldn't generate four
megs of traffic.

772
00:51:41,629 --> 00:51:52,629
And we know that at four megs, at eight megs, there is not a significant security
issue. The mining infrastructure can handle that just fine right now.

773
00:51:52,629 --> 00:52:01,629
So we've got a long way to go. We need to double the total number of transactions on
Bitcoin in order to get to even eight megs at this point.

774
00:52:02,629 --> 00:52:19,629
Okay, you like to say a lot of things there. So I'm happy that I wrote at least some
of them down. I mean, first of all, I just want to say something about cities.
Historically, they have grown to a size and then they have had a horrible disaster
like a plague run through or a giant fire that has killed everyone.

775
00:52:20,629 --> 00:52:31,629
So your assertion that who cares about the city being too big, that has historically
been a problem sometimes.

776
00:52:31,629 --> 00:52:46,629
That's not my assertion. And just to clarify, so that you don't go forward and say
that's my assertion. I am not saying that unlimited block size and that slamming the
network with transactions to try to do like stress tests is a good idea.

777
00:52:47,629 --> 00:53:04,629
In fact, I was one of the main people when the BSV proponents were doing that on
BCH. I was one of the main people saying that's a very, very bad idea. And you
shouldn't be trying to stress test how big of blocks you should get on your network,
that we should be relying on organic traffic.

778
00:53:04,629 --> 00:53:16,629
And so it's not that I'm for a limit. It's that I'm saying organically, we don't
need a limit because we can't even get over four megs. Right? So it's like, why
would we cap something that we can't even reach?

779
00:53:16,629 --> 00:53:43,629
Okay, I'm going to try to weave a lot of the things you're saying into a little
thread here. So you have this view that involves a lot of, it's sort of like an open
loop. It involves a lot of feedback with the world, like all the transactions on an
arbitrary subset of cryptocurrencies, BTC, BCH, BSV, you could include everything
on, you know, coin market cap, and then probably presumably it would be more than
eight megs.

780
00:53:44,629 --> 00:53:57,629
Every Bitcoin fork we'll include and it will be arbitrarily created Bitcoin Diamond
3 and add a trillion transactions to it and make it any sizable. But those
transactions do not exist on Bitcoin Diamond 3.

781
00:53:58,629 --> 00:54:04,629
No, but you could, someone could, in principle, make them and then your premise
wouldn't be true. It would be trivial for anyone to do that.

782
00:54:05,629 --> 00:54:26,629
I'm trying to weave this thread here. You have this, you have this view that
involves lots of feedback with people, you telling other people that you don't think
what they're doing is reasonable, the stress test. There's a lot of kind of open
loop, it goes out of your brain into the world into other people. And there's this
big interaction.

783
00:54:27,629 --> 00:54:45,629
But don't you see why a lot of people push in the opposite direction, and they want
something that's very independent of manipulation from humans, because humans are
not very reliable. Humans are very, you know, imperfect.

784
00:54:45,629 --> 00:55:02,629
We're very fallible creatures. And a lot of people want something that is minimally
affected by opinions of other humans and can't, I believe that you can understand
why they would embrace that type of position.

785
00:55:02,629 --> 00:55:17,629
And you can see, I think, the logic how that leads very quickly to one megabyte,
like forever type position. I'm not saying, you know, that's the best thing to do or
that I agree with all of it, but I'm just trying to sketch out this logic here.

786
00:55:17,629 --> 00:55:39,629
Don't you see that there's this big difference in philosophies. You have this view
that we need to take into account all the market demand from the world. But a lot of
people would say, hey, we don't have any reliable way for me or my computer to
measure that. It could easily be faked or I could measure it differently from
someone else.

787
00:55:39,629 --> 00:55:56,629
So I can't rely on that. I have to work out with what I've been given. So don't you
see how a lot of people find that to be valuable. And again, I return to my point
that people prefer, they prefer BTC to BCH. It's been a long time. It's been like
two years.

788
00:55:56,629 --> 00:55:57,629
A long time.

789
00:55:57,629 --> 00:56:00,629
It cries out. I think that is a long time.

790
00:56:00,629 --> 00:56:03,629
You've been making money two years, a long time.

791
00:56:04,629 --> 00:56:20,629
I'll tell you why. Because when you hard fork, you have like this big opportunity.
It's like some chorus throwing the same New Year's party every year. And you say, we
want to throw a different one this New Year's and every other New Year's afterwards.

792
00:56:20,629 --> 00:56:41,629
We want to throw the big one. The first New Year's is your big shot. That's when
you've got to get all of your A-list celebs and you've got to make sure that there's
enough food and drink for everyone because if it's flaky, people won't want to go.
They won't want to skip over to their two years from now or three years from now.
It'll be the lamer party forever.

793
00:56:42,629 --> 00:56:53,629
I know it sounds kind of crazy, but I think that is an accurate description of how a
lot of people think that money is very social and language is very social, as I was
talking before about English.

794
00:56:53,629 --> 00:57:10,629
We can't just sweep aside the fact that we type on a QWERTY keyboard. The layout is
ridiculous. It has a semicolon on the home row. Some people switch it over to
DwarfJack, but when you buy the keyboard in the store, it's always laid out the same
way by default.

795
00:57:10,629 --> 00:57:26,629
This is the collective action problem I wanted people to open in their browser tab.
It's hard to get people to switch. It's very difficult. I think it has been a long
time.

796
00:57:27,629 --> 00:57:39,629
I guess it's really a difference in perception of what the length of this project is
and where along the way this project is.

797
00:57:40,629 --> 00:57:51,629
For me, what I understand is that Bitcoin is upsetting a financial system that's
fundamentally 1,000 years old that goes back to the Knights Templar.

798
00:57:51,629 --> 00:58:11,629
They're basically the ones who, in the West, developed the first international money
transfer network. Although there have been changes and it grew out from there, we're
talking about something that the white paper version of it, the first version, was
about 1,000 years old.

799
00:58:12,629 --> 00:58:28,629
What I look at is I see Satoshi Nakamoto releasing a white paper 11 years ago. When
I got into it in late 2012, there was one wallet that was worth a damn, the
blockchain.info wallet, and one explorer.

800
00:58:28,629 --> 00:58:39,629
Just now, we're getting to a point where we're getting even people in the public to
start looking at it. Still, nobody's using it in terms of merchant adoption and all
of this.

801
00:58:40,629 --> 00:58:54,629
I look at that we're talking about the next step in the global financial networks. I
don't think that two years, if we're talking about that span of time, is really
anything.

802
00:58:55,629 --> 00:59:06,629
Yeah, but it doesn't concern you at all that it's 100% of the time the market
capitalization has been lower, and if you smooth the transaction rates, the
transactions have been lower?

803
00:59:07,629 --> 00:59:08,629
No, and the reason why it doesn't…

804
00:59:09,629 --> 00:59:10,629
100% of the time.

805
00:59:11,629 --> 00:59:19,629
Yeah, the reason why that doesn't concern me is because, again, the reason why the
price is where it is is based on speculation.

806
00:59:19,629 --> 00:59:23,629
But is there anything that would concern you? I mean, this is like as bad as it
gets, almost.

807
00:59:24,629 --> 00:59:26,629
What is as bad as it gets?

808
00:59:27,629 --> 00:59:31,629
The relative adoption, I would say, something like that.

809
00:59:32,629 --> 00:59:49,629
Well, the relative adoption of BCH has increased certainly since the fork, but if
we're talking about price, I bought my first Bitcoin at $15, and right now BCH is
around $300.

810
00:59:50,629 --> 00:59:56,629
If you bought them a long time ago, anyone, I think you would add BCH together.

811
00:59:57,629 --> 01:00:05,629
At $15 for me, it was worth it when I bought it as peer-to-peer cash, and it's worth
it to me today as peer-to-peer cash.

812
01:00:06,629 --> 01:00:11,629
I don't dispute that. I'm just saying, is there anything that would concern you? You
would say, well, maybe this idea just isn't…

813
01:00:12,629 --> 01:00:21,629
Of course there are. Of course there are, and it's the reason why I'm in BCH. The
things that concern me is fees getting high and entrepreneurs not being able to take
profits.

814
01:00:22,629 --> 01:00:28,629
There's a reason. Fees could be low. All you have to do is make certain trade-offs.

815
01:00:29,629 --> 01:00:30,629
Yes.

816
01:00:31,629 --> 01:00:43,629
It's very logical to make the lowest one that's mandatory for everyone, have the
least social cost for everyone, this externality cost imposed on everyone.

817
01:00:44,629 --> 01:00:47,629
All you have to do from there is just opt in to custodial wallet, and then the fees
are zero.

818
01:00:47,629 --> 01:00:51,629
You can't do that if it's reversed. If it's layer one has the expensive fees.

819
01:00:52,629 --> 01:00:55,629
Can I read something, Paul?

820
01:00:56,629 --> 01:01:01,629
You would like to just shotgun out these points. They just go everywhere.

821
01:01:02,629 --> 01:01:08,629
Well, this is not a shotgun. What I wanted to read was I wanted to read the first
three sentences of the white paper. Could I do that?

822
01:01:09,629 --> 01:01:11,629
I think it's commerce on the internet.

823
01:01:12,629 --> 01:01:14,629
I'm going to get it wrong.

824
01:01:14,629 --> 01:01:17,629
Oh, yeah. Here's the first three sentences.

825
01:01:18,629 --> 01:01:28,629
A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be
sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial
institution.

826
01:01:29,629 --> 01:01:30,629
That's the abstract, though.

827
01:01:31,629 --> 01:01:32,629
Yeah, but it's the first three sentences. It's in the abstract.

828
01:01:33,629 --> 01:01:35,629
Digital signatures provide part of the solution.

829
01:01:36,629 --> 01:01:37,629
But the main benefits are lost.

830
01:01:37,629 --> 01:01:40,629
Hold on. This is the important part here when we're talking about custodial wallets.

831
01:01:41,629 --> 01:01:49,629
Digital signatures provide part of the solution, but the main benefits are lost if a
trusted third party is still required to prevent double spending.

832
01:01:50,629 --> 01:01:54,629
We propose a solution to the double spending problem using a peer-to-peer network.

833
01:01:55,629 --> 01:02:01,629
So, yes, I could use a custodial wallet, but the main benefits of Bitcoin are lost.

834
01:02:02,629 --> 01:02:04,629
It's the second sentence of the white paper.

835
01:02:04,629 --> 01:02:06,629
If a trusted third party is required…

836
01:02:07,629 --> 01:02:13,629
You're the one choosing to make a trade-off of additional trust for lower fees.

837
01:02:14,629 --> 01:02:16,629
If I want a custodian, I'll just use a bank.

838
01:02:17,629 --> 01:02:20,629
Yeah, but you dispute the fact that there will be…

839
01:02:21,629 --> 01:02:30,629
I mean, it's true that a blockchain network with huge blocks will not be as
trust-intensive as a custodial wallet.

840
01:02:30,629 --> 01:02:33,629
But people who run a full node… I don't even run a full node.

841
01:02:34,629 --> 01:02:40,629
I'm a heretic and an evildoer, so I don't run my own full Bitcoin node.

842
01:02:41,629 --> 01:02:47,629
But because it requires a lot of space, when someone looks at running a node, you
think…

843
01:02:48,629 --> 01:02:54,629
When I look at a Bitcoin node, I think in my head, I think, oh, this block size is
too big.

844
01:02:55,629 --> 01:02:56,629
This is horrible.

845
01:02:56,629 --> 01:03:01,629
I mean, hundreds of gigabytes of space, bandwidth requirements.

846
01:03:02,629 --> 01:03:09,629
What would happen if there was intense surveillance of the internet to find people
who are running Bitcoin nodes?

847
01:03:10,629 --> 01:03:17,629
You had to try and hide the bandwidth transactions, the bandwidth, the usage of
your…

848
01:03:18,629 --> 01:03:23,629
The way, the sort of pulse of information flowing in and out of your house.

849
01:03:23,629 --> 01:03:28,629
Because when a Bitcoin network block is found, it would be possible to find.

850
01:03:29,629 --> 01:03:32,629
If you wanted to try and hide all this stuff behind Tor, behind VPN…

851
01:03:33,629 --> 01:03:34,629
Why would I hide it?

852
01:03:35,629 --> 01:03:37,629
If there was an attempt to…

853
01:03:38,629 --> 01:03:43,629
But I mean, what would be the benefit of me hiding this?

854
01:03:44,629 --> 01:03:45,629
What would I be trying to…

855
01:03:45,629 --> 01:03:56,629
If you're living in a place like North Korea or Russia or at an unlucky time in the
United States, anywhere, anything…

856
01:03:57,629 --> 01:04:06,629
So if this surveillance was going on that they were spending this time to do this
intensive looking for Bitcoin blocks moving around in nodes,

857
01:04:07,629 --> 01:04:11,629
well, there already is intensive scrutiny of bank accounts.

858
01:04:11,629 --> 01:04:15,629
There already is all of this happening on bank wires, all of it.

859
01:04:16,629 --> 01:04:18,629
So that's the point that Satoshi is trying to make.

860
01:04:19,629 --> 01:04:20,629
That's the solution.

861
01:04:21,629 --> 01:04:24,629
That's what he's trying to solve is to take away the trusted third party.

862
01:04:25,629 --> 01:04:28,629
You're asking me, you're saying, I could have low fees, but I'd have to have a
custodian.

863
01:04:29,629 --> 01:04:30,629
Well, all they have to do is go to the custodian.

864
01:04:31,629 --> 01:04:34,629
And not only that, Paul, we just saw this with Coinbase.

865
01:04:35,629 --> 01:04:39,629
They went to Coinbase with the John Doe summons, the IRS.

866
01:04:39,629 --> 01:04:41,629
They went to Coinbase with the John Doe summons.

867
01:04:42,629 --> 01:04:43,629
They didn't know.

868
01:04:44,629 --> 01:04:46,629
Coinbase, the custodian, they did not know who had traded.

869
01:04:47,629 --> 01:04:54,629
They made Coinbase hand over the information and then they went ahead and sent off
letters and a whole bunch of our friends have gotten these letters, Paul.

870
01:04:55,629 --> 01:04:56,629
Of course, I know.

871
01:04:57,629 --> 01:04:58,629
But you're making my point though.

872
01:04:59,629 --> 01:05:00,629
This is the point I'm making.

873
01:05:01,629 --> 01:05:02,629
It's a bad move and why we need to scale on chain.

874
01:05:03,629 --> 01:05:04,629
No, it's predictable.

875
01:05:05,629 --> 01:05:10,629
I don't know how you would run an exchange without depositing money to the site.

876
01:05:11,629 --> 01:05:13,629
I mean, it is possible, but I think user experience isn't very good.

877
01:05:14,629 --> 01:05:15,629
I mean, you have things like local Bitcoins.

878
01:05:16,629 --> 01:05:17,629
You still need someone to arbitrate disputes.

879
01:05:18,629 --> 01:05:20,629
The liquidity is severely impacted.

880
01:05:21,629 --> 01:05:28,629
So I think actually putting Bitcoin into a website, if you want to exchange for
fiat, I don't really see that changing in the foreseeable future.

881
01:05:29,629 --> 01:05:30,629
Maybe you disagree.

882
01:05:31,629 --> 01:05:37,629
I don't think large blocks are going to solve the fact that there will be large
exchanges that have a lot of liquidity.

883
01:05:38,629 --> 01:05:40,629
Liquidity begets liquidity, as they say.

884
01:05:41,629 --> 01:05:51,629
And then governments will serve those exchanges with just a request for an Excel
spreadsheet to help the government with their tax collection.

885
01:05:52,629 --> 01:05:54,629
I think all that is foreseeable and that is why it's also foreseeable.

886
01:05:55,629 --> 01:06:10,629
You have no idea if someone in the Chinese government or the Indian government or
the Russian government is going to want to figure out who's using Bitcoin in their
country anyway and show up at the house with some questions.

887
01:06:11,629 --> 01:06:13,629
That is foreseeable.

888
01:06:14,629 --> 01:06:16,629
So you're trying to draw this.

889
01:06:17,629 --> 01:06:18,629
There can be a huge spectrum.

890
01:06:19,629 --> 01:06:21,629
This is why I asked you about this earlier.

891
01:06:21,629 --> 01:06:22,629
You said fees are very important.

892
01:06:23,629 --> 01:06:26,629
And I said, look, you can make the fees zero if you want.

893
01:06:27,629 --> 01:06:28,629
And now you say, well, that's a trusted third party.

894
01:06:29,629 --> 01:06:33,629
So what I really want is fees as low as possible but no trusted third party.

895
01:06:35,629 --> 01:06:46,629
But your ability to evade the trusted third party is your ability to run the network
node.

896
01:06:46,629 --> 01:06:52,629
And that is what becomes more expensive when the blocks increase, when the bus is
magically growing in size.

897
01:06:53,629 --> 01:06:54,629
Wait, no.

898
01:06:55,629 --> 01:07:03,629
You're moving away from the trusted third party situation and towards the trusted
third party situation.

899
01:07:04,629 --> 01:07:08,629
Why do I have to run a node to avoid a trusted third party?

900
01:07:09,629 --> 01:07:13,629
I just have to have access to be able to broadcast to a node in order to avoid it.

901
01:07:13,629 --> 01:07:15,629
Well, I mean, you can be one of these people who don't.

902
01:07:16,629 --> 01:07:17,629
You don't run a node?

903
01:07:18,629 --> 01:07:19,629
That's true, I don't.

904
01:07:20,629 --> 01:07:23,629
But I receive money from people that I know and then I pay people that I don't know.

905
01:07:24,629 --> 01:07:26,629
So I don't need to run one.

906
01:07:27,629 --> 01:07:33,629
Anecdotally, do you know of anybody who has been using a traditional SPV wallet and
has lost it?

907
01:07:34,629 --> 01:07:37,629
No, I think many people don't run a node and I think that's fine.

908
01:07:38,629 --> 01:07:40,629
Do you know anyone who has lost money?

909
01:07:40,629 --> 01:07:44,629
No, but you understand that it must be possible to run a node.

910
01:07:45,629 --> 01:07:46,629
Otherwise, the network won't exist.

911
01:07:47,629 --> 01:07:49,629
Well, it must be possible for some people to run a node, which gets to my point.

912
01:07:50,629 --> 01:07:52,629
The more difficult it is to run a node.

913
01:07:53,629 --> 01:07:54,629
Well, no.

914
01:07:55,629 --> 01:07:56,629
It has to be worth it to run a node.

915
01:07:57,629 --> 01:07:59,629
So, for instance, with my businesses, we run nodes.

916
01:08:00,629 --> 01:08:04,629
The reason we run nodes is because we make our revenue.

917
01:08:04,629 --> 01:08:13,629
It is incumbent upon our business to be able to quickly be able to broadcast to and
query the blockchain.

918
01:08:14,629 --> 01:08:18,629
Businesses will always run nodes if it's profitable for them to do so.

919
01:08:19,629 --> 01:08:20,629
And so it goes back to my initial point.

920
01:08:21,629 --> 01:08:22,629
I don't think that's true.

921
01:08:23,629 --> 01:08:24,629
They could be made illegal to run a node.

922
01:08:25,629 --> 01:08:26,629
Then you wouldn't.

923
01:08:27,629 --> 01:08:30,629
Outside of that, what I'm saying is if it is legal to run a node,

924
01:08:31,629 --> 01:08:35,629
businesses will run a node if it is profitable for them to do so.

925
01:08:36,629 --> 01:08:43,629
But then doesn't that just put the whole protocol underneath the umbrella of the US
Congress or something?

926
01:08:44,629 --> 01:08:45,629
It's game over immediately.

927
01:08:46,629 --> 01:08:52,629
Well, if it's made illegal to run a Bitcoin node, we're in a completely different
situation.

928
01:08:53,629 --> 01:08:59,629
Right now what I'm talking about is the assumption that we're going to be in a
similar situation as we are now.

929
01:09:00,629 --> 01:09:01,629
I don't think it's important.

930
01:09:02,629 --> 01:09:07,629
It's like someone installing a pacemaker and you're like, well, you know, this one's
a little bit cheaper.

931
01:09:08,629 --> 01:09:09,629
It has lower fees.

932
01:09:10,629 --> 01:09:13,629
But a normal person is going to be thinking, I want the most reliable pacemaker.

933
01:09:14,629 --> 01:09:15,629
If this thing doesn't work, I'm going to...

934
01:09:16,629 --> 01:09:18,629
How is BTC more reliable than BCH at this point?

935
01:09:19,629 --> 01:09:20,629
I don't know.

936
01:09:21,629 --> 01:09:22,629
It makes the nodes easier to run.

937
01:09:23,629 --> 01:09:24,629
We need to have the nodes.

938
01:09:25,629 --> 01:09:26,629
That's not what I asked you.

939
01:09:27,629 --> 01:09:28,629
Sorry, I misunderstood then.

940
01:09:28,629 --> 01:09:33,629
My question to you was, how is BTC at this moment more reliable than BCH?

941
01:09:34,629 --> 01:09:35,629
And let me define reliable.

942
01:09:36,629 --> 01:09:40,629
For the average person, I believe reliable is I make a transaction.

943
01:09:41,629 --> 01:09:42,629
My transaction gets to its destination.

944
01:09:43,629 --> 01:09:44,629
My money is not lost.

945
01:09:45,629 --> 01:09:46,629
Somebody sends me money.

946
01:09:47,629 --> 01:09:48,629
It gets to me.

947
01:09:49,629 --> 01:09:52,629
How is BTC in that context more reliable at this moment than BCH?

948
01:09:53,629 --> 01:09:54,629
I would say it's very negligible.

949
01:09:55,629 --> 01:09:56,629
I understand what you're saying.

950
01:09:56,629 --> 01:09:57,629
I agree with you.

951
01:09:58,629 --> 01:09:59,629
It doesn't matter.

952
01:10:00,629 --> 01:10:01,629
You don't just want to take a snapshot.

953
01:10:02,629 --> 01:10:03,629
This is a movie.

954
01:10:04,629 --> 01:10:05,629
This is one block.

955
01:10:06,629 --> 01:10:07,629
One megabyte blocks.

956
01:10:08,629 --> 01:10:09,629
There's a thousand blocks a week.

957
01:10:10,629 --> 01:10:12,629
One megabyte blocks, sure, but it's one gigabyte every week forever.

958
01:10:13,629 --> 01:10:14,629
How many blocks have been...

959
01:10:15,629 --> 01:10:16,629
Accumulate.

960
01:10:17,629 --> 01:10:23,629
How many people have lost money on BCH because of the changes that have been made to
BCH?

961
01:10:24,629 --> 01:10:25,629
I don't know.

962
01:10:26,629 --> 01:10:28,629
I'm not familiar with that, but that doesn't...

963
01:10:29,629 --> 01:10:30,629
Zero.

964
01:10:31,629 --> 01:10:34,629
Yeah, but you understand the pacemaker could just work fine and then you can say,

965
01:10:35,629 --> 01:10:36,629
this is the turkey problem.

966
01:10:37,629 --> 01:10:42,629
Right before Thanksgiving, the turkey is being fed and massaged or whatever.

967
01:10:43,629 --> 01:10:45,629
It gets all the food it wants and it doesn't have to do any work.

968
01:10:46,629 --> 01:10:47,629
And then right before Thanksgiving, the turkey thinks,

969
01:10:48,629 --> 01:10:49,629
hey, life's not so bad.

970
01:10:50,629 --> 01:10:51,629
So when...

971
01:10:52,629 --> 01:10:54,629
More and more confident that life is perfect and just everything's getting better.

972
01:10:54,629 --> 01:10:58,629
So when will BCH fail because it supports more than a one megabyte block?

973
01:10:59,629 --> 01:11:01,629
What if BCH will fail because of this?

974
01:11:02,629 --> 01:11:03,629
This derivation.

975
01:11:04,629 --> 01:11:06,629
Well, don't you think that there would be some...

976
01:11:07,629 --> 01:11:09,629
There will be some point at which...

977
01:11:11,629 --> 01:11:12,629
Well, I don't...

978
01:11:13,629 --> 01:11:14,629
Again, this goes back to this fundamental idea of,

979
01:11:15,629 --> 01:11:17,629
you and I don't really disagree on this.

980
01:11:18,629 --> 01:11:19,629
You just think the line is sort of in the wrong spot

981
01:11:20,629 --> 01:11:23,629
and that people should be free to move the line if they...

982
01:11:24,629 --> 01:11:25,629
Feel like it's okay.

983
01:11:26,629 --> 01:11:27,629
No, no, no, no.

984
01:11:28,629 --> 01:11:29,629
It's not about feeling like it's okay.

985
01:11:30,629 --> 01:11:31,629
It's about a decision about what you value.

986
01:11:32,629 --> 01:11:33,629
Because low fees...

987
01:11:34,629 --> 01:11:35,629
Again, I'll go back, dude.

988
01:11:36,629 --> 01:11:37,629
And again, I knew that it was going to be difficult with this

989
01:11:38,629 --> 01:11:39,629
because I think for someone who...

990
01:11:40,629 --> 01:11:42,629
I don't know if you've started a business and ran a business.

991
01:11:43,629 --> 01:11:44,629
I don't know if you have or not.

992
01:11:45,629 --> 01:11:46,629
But I do.

993
01:11:47,629 --> 01:11:49,629
I have academics in my family who teach economics.

994
01:11:50,629 --> 01:11:52,629
And so sometimes it does get into this situation where I'm saying,

995
01:11:52,629 --> 01:11:58,629
the low fees are an incentive for entrepreneurs to build on the network.

996
01:11:59,629 --> 01:12:03,629
It's an opportunity for them to have higher profit margins.

997
01:12:04,629 --> 01:12:05,629
I think that's great.

998
01:12:06,629 --> 01:12:09,629
And the more entrepreneurs you have in a given economy

999
01:12:10,629 --> 01:12:13,629
and the more profit you allow them to seek in that economy,

1000
01:12:14,629 --> 01:12:15,629
the faster an economy grows,

1001
01:12:16,629 --> 01:12:17,629
the more solutions you have in that economy,

1002
01:12:18,629 --> 01:12:20,629
and over time, the more successful it is.

1003
01:12:20,629 --> 01:12:21,629
It doesn't matter where it's at now.

1004
01:12:22,629 --> 01:12:25,629
Because I've already said, I'm betting decades ahead.

1005
01:12:26,629 --> 01:12:29,629
I'm building my business for where it's going to be when I retire.

1006
01:12:30,629 --> 01:12:31,629
That's what I'm building for.

1007
01:12:32,629 --> 01:12:35,629
And when I look at the decisions being made by BTC's thought leaders

1008
01:12:36,629 --> 01:12:37,629
and the decisions being made by BCH's thought leaders,

1009
01:12:38,629 --> 01:12:40,629
to me, what I'm betting on as an entrepreneur

1010
01:12:41,629 --> 01:12:43,629
is that BCH is going to be much more successful.

1011
01:12:44,629 --> 01:12:45,629
Okay.

1012
01:12:46,629 --> 01:12:48,629
I mean, that's a very inspiring story and everything.

1013
01:12:48,629 --> 01:12:49,629
I mean that sincerely.

1014
01:12:50,629 --> 01:12:55,629
But you're just saying that fees are lower,

1015
01:12:56,629 --> 01:12:57,629
entrepreneurs will have more profits.

1016
01:12:58,629 --> 01:13:00,629
But we're kind of cycling now.

1017
01:13:01,629 --> 01:13:02,629
Because I said, you can make the fees as low as you want.

1018
01:13:03,629 --> 01:13:04,629
You can opt in with Layer 1.

1019
01:13:05,629 --> 01:13:07,629
You can send Layer 1 to other things.

1020
01:13:08,629 --> 01:13:10,629
Some of them, with Drivechain,

1021
01:13:11,629 --> 01:13:13,629
some of them could resemble BCH almost perfectly.

1022
01:13:14,629 --> 01:13:15,629
Although, again, I don't want to...

1023
01:13:15,629 --> 01:13:19,629
But those solutions...

1024
01:13:20,629 --> 01:13:23,629
And if Drivechain existed right now and was up and running

1025
01:13:24,629 --> 01:13:26,629
and I could create and build the type of things

1026
01:13:27,629 --> 01:13:28,629
that I'm building on top of BCH,

1027
01:13:29,629 --> 01:13:31,629
on top of a Drivechain instance that was out there

1028
01:13:32,629 --> 01:13:33,629
that was working and had that level of reach,

1029
01:13:34,629 --> 01:13:35,629
I would do it.

1030
01:13:36,629 --> 01:13:37,629
I'm happy to do it.

1031
01:13:38,629 --> 01:13:39,629
That's very encouraging.

1032
01:13:40,629 --> 01:13:41,629
The argument from Drivechain is kind of cheating in several ways

1033
01:13:41,629 --> 01:13:47,629
because it is just cops straight up copying everything about BCH.

1034
01:13:48,629 --> 01:13:49,629
But it is similar to a related point,

1035
01:13:50,629 --> 01:13:54,629
which is that if a different blockchain model

1036
01:13:55,629 --> 01:13:56,629
were shown to be successful,

1037
01:13:57,629 --> 01:13:58,629
I think it's likely that someone

1038
01:13:59,629 --> 01:14:01,629
or a large number of people in the BTC community

1039
01:14:02,629 --> 01:14:03,629
would hard fork at that point and say,

1040
01:14:04,629 --> 01:14:06,629
okay, look, it's been shown that actually the right answer

1041
01:14:07,629 --> 01:14:10,629
was 17.2 megabytes.

1042
01:14:11,629 --> 01:14:12,629
Now that we know that,

1043
01:14:13,629 --> 01:14:16,629
take the BTC UTXO set and install that in.

1044
01:14:17,629 --> 01:14:18,629
But I still think this is kind of like...

1045
01:14:19,629 --> 01:14:20,629
This really is like evading.

1046
01:14:21,629 --> 01:14:22,629
You're saying you want lower fees,

1047
01:14:23,629 --> 01:14:24,629
but I'm saying you can do that with Custodial Wallet

1048
01:14:25,629 --> 01:14:26,629
or you can do it with BSV.

1049
01:14:27,629 --> 01:14:28,629
There's always going to be someone leapfrogging

1050
01:14:29,629 --> 01:14:30,629
the blockchain technology to just go further

1051
01:14:31,629 --> 01:14:34,629
in your desired change direction with infinite regrets

1052
01:14:34,629 --> 01:14:35,629
that I mentioned before.

1053
01:14:36,629 --> 01:14:37,629
And I can say, well, I like...

1054
01:14:38,629 --> 01:14:39,629
BSV's fees are not lower, Paul.

1055
01:14:40,629 --> 01:14:42,629
Well, you're saying because they're both so close to zero

1056
01:14:43,629 --> 01:14:44,629
that it doesn't make a difference.

1057
01:14:45,629 --> 01:14:46,629
No, they're both one Satoshi per byte.

1058
01:14:47,629 --> 01:14:48,629
Yeah, but you don't understand.

1059
01:14:49,629 --> 01:14:50,629
That's actually...

1060
01:14:50,824 --> 01:14:51,824
That's actually, you know, it could be... Theoretically, you could make one...

1061
01:14:51,824 --> 01:14:59,824
I'm not saying theoretically, I'm saying what they... See, as a business owner, I
don't really have the luxury of dealing in theory.

1062
01:14:59,824 --> 01:15:11,824
I have to deal with the facts on the ground. I have to deal with what my actual
costs are, what my actual infrastructure needs to be, the actual work that I have to
do, the actual planning that I have to do.

1063
01:15:11,824 --> 01:15:24,824
I understand that theoretically, a lot of things could happen. Theoretically,
Lightning Network could be gangbusters and in 18 months, everybody will be using
Lightning. That's not now, right? If that's the case, I'll re-evaluate.

1064
01:15:24,824 --> 01:15:32,824
Well, I mean, you do make use of theory. Tonight, you've made use of theory a lot in
many of the things that you've said.

1065
01:15:33,824 --> 01:15:46,824
Prediction. Prediction is different than theory, right? I'm predicting and betting
on a particular outcome, and it's based on things that I know, but it's not
theoretical. We don't know what it is.

1066
01:15:46,824 --> 01:16:12,824
I think your strongest point is the culture point, which is that ultimately...
Here's a point that Giacomo made in the third one, which is that in order to be
consistent with this message, BCH is going to have to hard fork again to increase
the block size further as the demand for the seats on the bus increases,

1067
01:16:13,824 --> 01:16:31,824
which means that this is in a state of flux. Similarly, the Layer 2s on BTC are also
in the state of being worked on by humans. There is a question in which there's a
sense in which both projects are... You're betting on a team of people.

1068
01:16:31,824 --> 01:16:34,824
Is that true? A hard fork is necessary then?

1069
01:16:34,824 --> 01:16:39,824
Well, to be honest, BCH has already hard forked multiple times to increase the block
size.

1070
01:16:39,824 --> 01:16:42,824
Every six months, which I think is a big problem.

1071
01:16:42,824 --> 01:16:52,824
Well, you may think it's a problem, but the fact of the matter is we forked from 8
megs to 32 megs, and the network stayed and the community stayed together.

1072
01:16:52,824 --> 01:16:56,824
Hold on. I think you're going to regret saying that.

1073
01:16:56,824 --> 01:16:58,824
Yes, I will concede.

1074
01:16:58,824 --> 01:17:05,824
Because right now, there's in the process of an Omri Sashay and Roger Veer fork. So
you live by the fork, die by the fork. It's happening.

1075
01:17:05,824 --> 01:17:18,824
I have said publicly many times, right? So I've said publicly many times that the
hard fork comes with some major risks, that doing a hard fork every six months comes
with some major risks.

1076
01:17:19,824 --> 01:17:28,824
But on the notion that BCH will, that Giacomo said, BCH will have to hard fork again
to increase the block size.

1077
01:17:28,824 --> 01:17:31,824
Well, the current block size is 32 megs.

1078
01:17:31,824 --> 01:17:44,824
And as I just said, that's eight times the total current transactions, 8x the total
current transactions, even at peak, that all the forks of Bitcoin...

1079
01:17:44,824 --> 01:17:47,824
But there's no relevance.

1080
01:17:47,824 --> 01:18:00,824
There's no relevance of the historical rate. If your mission statement for BCH is we
want to be like Visa, then it's just some back of the envelope math that you're
going to need something like blocks that are one gigabyte in size.

1081
01:18:00,824 --> 01:18:02,824
That would be very...

1082
01:18:02,824 --> 01:18:10,824
No, because I don't think that, I already said, I don't think a blockchain can scale
to global levels on the blockchain.

1083
01:18:11,824 --> 01:18:16,824
We're going to need Drivechains, not lightning.

1084
01:18:16,824 --> 01:18:18,824
We're going to need other solutions.

1085
01:18:18,824 --> 01:18:25,824
But what I'm saying is that if we were to even get to 16 megs on BCH, the amount of
economic...

1086
01:18:25,824 --> 01:18:28,824
We're so far from that. We don't even have one meg blocks regularly.

1087
01:18:28,824 --> 01:18:30,824
Even at peak, we don't have one meg.

1088
01:18:30,824 --> 01:18:40,824
So we would have to increase the amount of traffic that was taking place so greatly
that that would be correlated with additional economic activity.

1089
01:18:40,824 --> 01:18:46,824
And it's at that point that we don't have to plan for something that is...

1090
01:18:46,824 --> 01:18:48,824
We don't know what that economy will look like.

1091
01:18:48,824 --> 01:18:50,824
We don't know when that will take place.

1092
01:18:50,824 --> 01:18:58,824
It's like, again, a city with a thousand people in it saying we need to put in a
freeway to deal with when we have a million people here.

1093
01:18:58,824 --> 01:19:01,824
And it's like, one, you don't know if you're ever going to get to a million people.

1094
01:19:01,824 --> 01:19:03,824
Let's try to get to 10,000.

1095
01:19:03,824 --> 01:19:04,824
Right.

1096
01:19:04,824 --> 01:19:08,824
You're making the argument against big blocks now.

1097
01:19:08,824 --> 01:19:09,824
Unless I've misunderstood you.

1098
01:19:09,824 --> 01:19:10,824
No, I'm making...

1099
01:19:10,824 --> 01:19:11,824
Freeway.

1100
01:19:11,824 --> 01:19:12,824
I'm saying...

1101
01:19:12,824 --> 01:19:14,824
And this is the argument being made in BCH, by the way.

1102
01:19:14,824 --> 01:19:25,824
The gentleman, Steven Patterson, who was going to be on here, his biggest criticism
of BCH has been that the thought leaders in BCH say, well, we don't even need two
megabyte blocks right now.

1103
01:19:25,824 --> 01:19:26,824
Now, any...

1104
01:19:26,824 --> 01:19:30,824
Is this a statement that this is a payments network or not?

1105
01:19:30,824 --> 01:19:34,824
Yeah, for when the traffic is there.

1106
01:19:34,824 --> 01:19:35,824
And that's the point.

1107
01:19:35,824 --> 01:19:39,824
But now you have this thing that infallibly measures the traffic.

1108
01:19:39,824 --> 01:19:40,824
And don't you see...

1109
01:19:40,824 --> 01:19:42,824
Yeah, it's called full blocks.

1110
01:19:42,824 --> 01:19:44,824
It's actually an objective measure.

1111
01:19:44,824 --> 01:19:48,824
I can look and see what's the size of the block on a regular basis.

1112
01:19:48,824 --> 01:19:49,824
It's the bus again.

1113
01:19:49,824 --> 01:19:53,824
I don't need a 50-person bus if I only ever service 10 people.

1114
01:19:53,824 --> 01:19:55,824
Like, it's really easy.

1115
01:19:55,824 --> 01:19:59,824
So what's the point in having big blocks if y'all not using the block size?

1116
01:19:59,824 --> 01:20:02,824
No, the point was to fork...

1117
01:20:02,824 --> 01:20:08,824
The point was to fork away to enable the ability to scale.

1118
01:20:08,824 --> 01:20:09,824
To go bigger blocks.

1119
01:20:09,824 --> 01:20:13,824
To enable the ability to scale if it ever came to that.

1120
01:20:13,824 --> 01:20:14,824
Right.

1121
01:20:14,824 --> 01:20:18,824
So what's the point in talking about a big dick if you can't get no bitch?

1122
01:20:18,824 --> 01:20:20,824
Dude, I agree.

1123
01:20:20,824 --> 01:20:23,824
I don't get the argument.

1124
01:20:23,824 --> 01:20:29,824
That's why I'm talking about we need to be focused on going out and getting bitches
and not worried about the size of the dick.

1125
01:20:29,824 --> 01:20:31,824
Because right now we don't have no bitches.

1126
01:20:32,824 --> 01:20:37,824
What I'm saying right here is Paul is worried about swinging around.

1127
01:20:37,824 --> 01:20:43,824
You're going to need some bigger boxer shorts if you're going to increase your dick
to 64 megs.

1128
01:20:43,824 --> 01:20:46,824
And I'm like, no, we don't even have any bitches.

1129
01:20:46,824 --> 01:20:48,824
Why are we worried about the size of the dick?

1130
01:20:48,824 --> 01:20:49,824
We don't need to increase it.

1131
01:20:49,824 --> 01:20:50,824
Let's go out and get it.

1132
01:20:50,824 --> 01:20:56,824
And by the time we got all these bitches, if we need to get more, then we'll worry
about the size of our dick.

1133
01:20:56,824 --> 01:20:57,824
If we need more.

1134
01:20:57,824 --> 01:20:59,824
But we don't even know that.

1135
01:21:00,824 --> 01:21:01,824
So right now.

1136
01:21:01,824 --> 01:21:04,824
You're making the case against larger blocks, are you not?

1137
01:21:04,824 --> 01:21:05,824
You're saying we.

1138
01:21:05,824 --> 01:21:07,824
No, I don't have.

1139
01:21:07,824 --> 01:21:08,824
I don't.

1140
01:21:08,824 --> 01:21:10,824
It's just that large blocks is a moot point.

1141
01:21:10,824 --> 01:21:11,824
Okay.

1142
01:21:11,824 --> 01:21:12,824
Well, I think that's what you're saying.

1143
01:21:12,824 --> 01:21:16,824
You're saying we want some kind of feedback machine to increase the block size if
we.

1144
01:21:16,824 --> 01:21:17,824
Yes.

1145
01:21:17,824 --> 01:21:18,824
That's what I was trying to say.

1146
01:21:18,824 --> 01:21:21,824
Don't you see why people are uncomfortable with that?

1147
01:21:21,824 --> 01:21:23,824
No, I don't.

1148
01:21:24,824 --> 01:21:29,824
The one little thing that you proposed, whenever the blocks are full, make them
larger.

1149
01:21:29,824 --> 01:21:30,824
Yes.

1150
01:21:30,824 --> 01:21:32,824
I don't know how much we could do.

1151
01:21:32,824 --> 01:21:35,824
What's 32 megabytes of a transaction is 250.

1152
01:21:35,824 --> 01:21:38,824
Paul, not whenever.

1153
01:21:38,824 --> 01:21:42,824
Because the initial fork was about one meg.

1154
01:21:42,824 --> 01:21:45,824
The initial fork was about one meg.

1155
01:21:45,824 --> 01:21:55,824
People thought one meg was a ridiculous size for these blocks to be and knew that it
could be done safely at, let's say, 248.

1156
01:21:55,824 --> 01:22:02,824
Now, we know that if it was to get to 22 megs at this point with the way the
implementations are, there's going to be a problem.

1157
01:22:02,824 --> 01:22:04,824
We know that already.

1158
01:22:04,824 --> 01:22:12,824
But we're so far from 22 right now that what I'm saying is let's get to 22.

1159
01:22:13,824 --> 01:22:24,824
What we need to do is we need to increase the traffic, and the way to do that is to
enable businesses, entrepreneurs, to make a profit on your chain because the
entrepreneurs bring traffic.

1160
01:22:24,824 --> 01:22:25,824
Yeah, okay.

1161
01:22:25,824 --> 01:22:33,824
I'm glad you mentioned that because you do agree that at some point it will be
impossible to validate the block in about 10 minutes.

1162
01:22:33,824 --> 01:22:34,824
Absolutely.

1163
01:22:34,824 --> 01:22:38,824
At that point, the network cannot possibly work and will 100%.

1164
01:22:38,824 --> 01:22:46,824
So let's at least agree on that, that the bus will eventually get so big that the
engine can't start or something.

1165
01:22:46,824 --> 01:22:54,824
No, BCH disagrees with that, by the way, and that was one of the main points of why
BSV split was because BCH are reasonable.

1166
01:22:54,824 --> 01:23:04,824
I think I do understand that, but I'm just trying to sketch out for the audience
that you were painting this picture before about one has lower fees and one has
higher fees, and they're completely the same.

1167
01:23:05,824 --> 01:23:15,824
But you now do acknowledge that the one is closer to a potential, some kind of
statistical event that would lead to its oblivion.

1168
01:23:15,824 --> 01:23:24,824
But BCH actually isn't closer to that because BCH actually has less transactions
than BTC does.

1169
01:23:24,824 --> 01:23:25,824
Well, yeah, that's true.

1170
01:23:25,824 --> 01:23:30,824
That's true because no one is getting on this bus.

1171
01:23:31,824 --> 01:23:33,824
It kind of moves every point, though.

1172
01:23:33,824 --> 01:23:41,824
Well, BCH is doing – actually, when the fork first happened, I was very ambivalent
about it.

1173
01:23:41,824 --> 01:23:55,824
I actually didn't pay attention to it probably until November when I was like – my
business partner said, hey, you should check out this BCH thing just because I had
all of these BTC libraries sitting around that I had been building projects.

1174
01:23:55,824 --> 01:23:58,824
And he was like, maybe you could pick back up some of your projects that you were
thinking of.

1175
01:23:58,824 --> 01:24:11,824
And when I went in and saw, oh, damn, all I have to do is point it at a different
node and basically change one byte in every transaction, and oh, shit, everything
works again, and now the fees are nothing, and then I built CoinTek.

1176
01:24:12,824 --> 01:24:13,824
I can see.

1177
01:24:13,824 --> 01:24:32,824
No, I'm not disputing that lower fees is better than higher fees, and making it
easier for people to interface with the network is better than just telling them
that if they can't figure it out, they suck and they should take a hike.

1178
01:24:32,824 --> 01:24:33,824
I agree with that.

1179
01:24:33,824 --> 01:24:38,824
I'm not saying there's absolutely no upside at all to larger blocks.

1180
01:24:38,824 --> 01:24:42,824
I'm saying that BCH – as I said, BCH has to jump two hurdles.

1181
01:24:42,824 --> 01:24:45,824
It not only has to be better, which I do contest.

1182
01:24:50,824 --> 01:24:54,824
But it also – it's not – just being better is not enough to win.

1183
01:24:55,824 --> 01:24:58,824
We got a super chat from Logan King 1999.

1184
01:24:58,824 --> 01:24:59,824
Thank you, Logan.

1185
01:24:59,824 --> 01:25:03,824
He said, appreciate you initiating and cultivating conversation between both sides.

1186
01:25:03,824 --> 01:25:09,824
We'd love to see Jimmy Song or Willie Woo brought on for the BTC side in an upcoming
debate.

1187
01:25:09,824 --> 01:25:10,824
Keep up the solid work, brother.

1188
01:25:10,824 --> 01:25:11,824
Thank you, Logan.

1189
01:25:11,824 --> 01:25:12,824
Derek Moore, thank you.

1190
01:25:12,824 --> 01:25:15,824
You've been rocking with us through all these debates.

1191
01:25:15,824 --> 01:25:18,824
He says, we must harden the network or it topples at scale.

1192
01:25:18,824 --> 01:25:21,824
Stress test with my money is none of your business.

1193
01:25:21,824 --> 01:25:25,824
One Satoshi per byte fees are cheaper on Bitcoin SV.

1194
01:25:25,824 --> 01:25:30,824
BCH has the 400 kilobyte blocks that BTC wants to have.

1195
01:25:31,824 --> 01:25:34,824
Derek Moore, I made 256 megabyte blocks on SV.

1196
01:25:34,824 --> 01:25:36,824
22 megabyte limit is false.

1197
01:25:39,824 --> 01:25:42,824
Yeah, so he's – there's someone telling you, I guess.

1198
01:25:42,824 --> 01:25:50,824
I think we're kind of indirectly – one person said that you shouldn't mess with
their stuff.

1199
01:25:50,824 --> 01:25:56,824
And I don't – you know, I think you're a smart guy and you can understand why people
react negatively.

1200
01:25:56,824 --> 01:26:00,824
You're increasing – when you increase the block size, you're saying –

1201
01:26:00,824 --> 01:26:03,824
I'm not increasing anybody's block size.

1202
01:26:03,824 --> 01:26:06,824
I don't contribute to any implementations, and I don't make those decisions.

1203
01:26:06,824 --> 01:26:11,824
So I'm only betting on decisions that other people have already made.

1204
01:26:11,824 --> 01:26:13,824
Let Paul finish.

1205
01:26:13,824 --> 01:26:19,824
Yeah, when the block size increases, it is – we have people running software on
their computer.

1206
01:26:19,824 --> 01:26:21,824
The software has to work harder.

1207
01:26:21,824 --> 01:26:26,824
What if you – you know, if you're – imagine you live in some kind of condo complex
or something,

1208
01:26:26,824 --> 01:26:33,824
and someone just says, well, we're going to run more AC, and the monthly charges are
going to go up.

1209
01:26:33,824 --> 01:26:36,824
Even if they only go up, like you say, oh, they're only going up 20 cents,

1210
01:26:36,824 --> 01:26:38,824
and it's going to be 5 degrees cooler in here.

1211
01:26:38,824 --> 01:26:40,824
And you might think, well, that's a great deal.

1212
01:26:40,824 --> 01:26:43,824
But still, it's not your 20 cents.

1213
01:26:43,824 --> 01:26:49,824
You should be able to see why people would be entitled to at least complain and push
back

1214
01:26:49,824 --> 01:26:52,824
and why someone would want to take the other side of this argument

1215
01:26:52,824 --> 01:26:56,824
that we should just march the fees as low as we possibly can,

1216
01:26:56,824 --> 01:27:01,824
the common charges be damned, or whatever they – however high up they go, you know.

1217
01:27:01,824 --> 01:27:03,824
This is a monthly maintenance cost for people running the node.

1218
01:27:03,824 --> 01:27:06,824
They have to pay for hard drive space and bandwidth.

1219
01:27:06,824 --> 01:27:10,824
And who knows, they may – some of them may – we will probably see someone,

1220
01:27:10,824 --> 01:27:14,824
at least someone in Venezuela or whatever, pay with their lives

1221
01:27:14,824 --> 01:27:18,824
if someone will taunt them down and kill them.

1222
01:27:18,824 --> 01:27:23,824
It's kind of melodramatic to say, but that type of thing,

1223
01:27:23,824 --> 01:27:28,824
I expect it to happen at least a few times.

1224
01:27:28,824 --> 01:27:36,824
So I want people who want to run their own full node to be able to run their own
full node.

1225
01:27:36,824 --> 01:27:40,824
And I think also if people want blocks even smaller than they are,

1226
01:27:40,824 --> 01:27:47,824
if they want them to be 300K, like if Luke Dashjr. wants to fork BTC to a 300K
version

1227
01:27:47,824 --> 01:27:50,824
of that, he should be allowed to do it.

1228
01:27:50,824 --> 01:27:57,824
And I think that if BSV wants to go out and someone will agree to mine these 256 meg
blocks,

1229
01:27:57,824 --> 01:27:59,824
they should be able to do it.

1230
01:27:59,824 --> 01:28:03,824
I want all of these things to take place, and I want you to be able to run

1231
01:28:03,824 --> 01:28:07,824
whatever software you want to run on your machine.

1232
01:28:07,824 --> 01:28:10,824
I want you to have full financial sovereignty.

1233
01:28:10,824 --> 01:28:12,824
That's the reason why I'm in Bitcoin in the first place.

1234
01:28:12,824 --> 01:28:21,824
What I'm talking about here is why am I betting on one of these particular roadmaps
and paths, right?

1235
01:28:21,824 --> 01:28:24,824
And what do I believe about it, and why do I believe that?

1236
01:28:24,824 --> 01:28:27,824
I'm not saying BTC should raise the block size.

1237
01:28:27,824 --> 01:28:29,824
I'm not saying BSV should stop doing stress tests.

1238
01:28:29,824 --> 01:28:32,824
I'm saying everybody should be able to do what they want to do,

1239
01:28:32,824 --> 01:28:36,824
but I don't have to participate in one or the other,

1240
01:28:36,824 --> 01:28:40,824
and I choose to participate in one because I believe it has a brighter future.

1241
01:28:40,824 --> 01:28:42,824
But that's just my own opinion.

1242
01:28:42,824 --> 01:28:47,824
I know, but you're throwing out all this like, oh, any individual can do whatever
they like,

1243
01:28:47,824 --> 01:28:50,824
which obviously is…

1244
01:28:50,824 --> 01:28:52,824
I believe they should be able to.

1245
01:28:52,824 --> 01:28:56,824
I believe they – obviously they can't, but I believe so long as they're not hurting
people,

1246
01:28:56,824 --> 01:28:58,824
they should be able to.

1247
01:28:58,824 --> 01:29:02,824
The blockchain technology, what it does is it creates consensus among groups of
people.

1248
01:29:02,824 --> 01:29:03,824
It's very social.

1249
01:29:03,824 --> 01:29:14,824
So there is – it's inherently there's this element of teamwork that is inextricably
linked to it.

1250
01:29:14,824 --> 01:29:17,824
So it's not – it's like, you know, you're taking someone on a date,

1251
01:29:17,824 --> 01:29:24,824
and then Armani shows up and just says, I want everyone to be free to go to whatever
restaurant they like the most,

1252
01:29:24,824 --> 01:29:26,824
and then the two of you end up at different restaurants.

1253
01:29:26,824 --> 01:29:32,824
It's like, you know, when you go on a date, it counts a lot if you show up at the
same restaurant

1254
01:29:32,824 --> 01:29:39,824
and, similarly, when you're using money, you want to show up the same – you want to
use the money that other people are using,

1255
01:29:39,824 --> 01:29:42,824
which is the point I originally tried to emphasize.

1256
01:29:42,824 --> 01:29:46,824
Let's talk about – I think we beat this horse dead.

1257
01:29:46,824 --> 01:29:52,824
Let's talk security, man, because I don't think we touched enough on security.

1258
01:29:52,824 --> 01:29:53,824
Yeah, I agree.

1259
01:29:53,824 --> 01:29:58,824
Paul was – we're at about the hour and 30-minute mark, just to give you guys a heads
up.

1260
01:29:58,824 --> 01:30:09,824
Paul was talking about nodes and security, and Vin feels as though he increased the
block size and there's no security risk, right?

1261
01:30:09,824 --> 01:30:11,824
But let's say these blocks –

1262
01:30:11,824 --> 01:30:12,824
To a certain level.

1263
01:30:12,824 --> 01:30:13,824
To a certain level.

1264
01:30:13,824 --> 01:30:23,824
So there is definitely a technical limit at which blocks can't propagate or be
validated, and that limit is actually relatively small.

1265
01:30:24,824 --> 01:30:28,824
It's low. We know on BCH that it's probably around 22 megs right now.

1266
01:30:28,824 --> 01:30:39,824
Can you walk us through exactly what happens or what are the risks and how are these
risks brought into play when the block size increases?

1267
01:30:39,824 --> 01:30:42,824
Paul, you want to start or you want me to go?

1268
01:30:42,824 --> 01:30:45,824
Well, I thought he asked you, but I –

1269
01:30:46,824 --> 01:30:55,824
Either way, I didn't know – I mean I'll speak from a standpoint – I'll go first just
speaking from a standpoint of this issue of the blocks getting significantly big.

1270
01:30:55,824 --> 01:31:03,824
So in Bitcoin you have many-to-many network, and so you need blocks when they're
freshly found.

1271
01:31:03,824 --> 01:31:08,824
You need them to propagate moving out to all of the nodes relatively quickly.

1272
01:31:08,824 --> 01:31:11,824
And so the bigger the blocks are, the more difficult that is to do.

1273
01:31:11,824 --> 01:31:19,824
So you have the chance of blocks moving around, getting found at various different
times, not reaching the full length of the network.

1274
01:31:19,824 --> 01:31:28,824
And so obviously a smaller block, just as a smaller piece of data for a global
network, is going to be able to propagate through the network faster.

1275
01:31:28,824 --> 01:31:33,824
But that's – I think that's less important than the validating issue.

1276
01:31:33,824 --> 01:31:36,824
We're talking about – we're talking about data loss here, potential data loss.

1277
01:31:36,824 --> 01:31:40,824
Well, we're talking about blocks kind of overlapping each other because people are
finding –

1278
01:31:40,824 --> 01:31:42,824
And then ruining the ledger.

1279
01:31:42,824 --> 01:31:44,824
No.

1280
01:31:44,824 --> 01:31:48,824
If you don't ruin it, the ledger is going to be very safe.

1281
01:31:48,824 --> 01:31:57,824
The unfortunate thing – see, it's kind of like – imagine if Bank of America – if you
open a checking account at Bank of America.

1282
01:31:57,824 --> 01:32:09,824
And what Bank of America decides to do is every week they just – they literally send
you in the mail just a copy of every single transaction that everyone at Bank of
America made to anyone else, whether or not they have anything to do with you.

1283
01:32:09,824 --> 01:32:13,824
So you don't just get your monthly statement, and you can't go paperless.

1284
01:32:13,824 --> 01:32:22,824
They just – this stuff is just filling your apartment building with just crates of
just documents that have nothing to do with you.

1285
01:32:23,824 --> 01:32:26,824
You're a third party to these transactions.

1286
01:32:26,824 --> 01:32:28,824
Alice paying Bob.

1287
01:32:28,824 --> 01:32:30,824
Is this an analogy for a block?

1288
01:32:30,824 --> 01:32:31,824
Sorry?

1289
01:32:31,824 --> 01:32:33,824
Is this the analogy for a block?

1290
01:32:33,824 --> 01:32:34,824
Yeah, right.

1291
01:32:34,824 --> 01:32:38,824
This like – every time a block is found, a new chunk of stuff.

1292
01:32:38,824 --> 01:32:45,824
So every single transaction that Fullnode has on your hard drive, every single
Bitcoin transaction, everything.

1293
01:32:45,824 --> 01:32:46,824
Right.

1294
01:32:46,824 --> 01:32:49,824
And that is annoying.

1295
01:32:49,824 --> 01:32:50,824
No.

1296
01:32:50,824 --> 01:32:51,824
It's not free.

1297
01:32:51,824 --> 01:32:53,824
If that were free, this would be fine.

1298
01:32:53,824 --> 01:32:54,824
Then we can make infinite blocks.

1299
01:32:54,824 --> 01:32:55,824
Well, that's not true.

1300
01:32:55,824 --> 01:32:57,824
Where does the security risk come in?

1301
01:32:57,824 --> 01:33:05,824
Well, the security risk is more in – well, one risk is that fewer people – because
no one is forcing you to run a node.

1302
01:33:05,824 --> 01:33:06,824
So you could just stop.

1303
01:33:06,824 --> 01:33:07,824
You could just – as I do.

1304
01:33:07,824 --> 01:33:09,824
I don't even run one because I don't want to.

1305
01:33:09,824 --> 01:33:10,824
Most people don't, by the way.

1306
01:33:10,824 --> 01:33:12,824
I mean I think there's, what, 10,000 BTC nodes?

1307
01:33:12,824 --> 01:33:16,824
Clearly there's more than – and some of those are multiple nodes to one person.

1308
01:33:16,824 --> 01:33:17,824
You know what I mean?

1309
01:33:17,824 --> 01:33:18,824
Yes.

1310
01:33:18,824 --> 01:33:24,824
It's very difficult to measure, and many businesses run, like, several nodes of
different versions.

1311
01:33:24,824 --> 01:33:27,824
I mean, obviously, any exchange doesn't run like –

1312
01:33:27,824 --> 01:33:32,824
So what is my money at risk of with these bigger block sizes?

1313
01:33:32,824 --> 01:33:40,824
Well, as I said, you need some people to be running the nodes, or you'll never be
able to figure out if you've ever been paid.

1314
01:33:40,824 --> 01:33:41,824
Right.

1315
01:33:41,824 --> 01:33:43,824
You need somebody to verify these transactions.

1316
01:33:43,824 --> 01:33:45,824
The network needs to exist.

1317
01:33:45,824 --> 01:33:46,824
Right.

1318
01:33:46,824 --> 01:33:56,824
It's sort of the pacemaker analogy that if they get too big, the node count will
drop critically, and the network gets larger.

1319
01:33:56,824 --> 01:34:07,824
It may merely become the case, as we see with Ethereum, that it becomes just
unbelievably impractical for a random person to run a node,

1320
01:34:07,824 --> 01:34:15,824
and you have a specialist company that specializes in buying lots of specialist,
expensive hardware,

1321
01:34:15,824 --> 01:34:19,824
and they run the node, and then you just, like, connect to them, like, on a website.

1322
01:34:19,824 --> 01:34:22,824
You go to ethereumnode.com.

1323
01:34:22,824 --> 01:34:23,824
That's not what it is.

1324
01:34:23,824 --> 01:34:24,824
It's a URL, right?

1325
01:34:24,824 --> 01:34:31,824
It's called – but you go, and you just ask them because you just say, look, there's
way too much paper.

1326
01:34:31,824 --> 01:34:35,824
So someone basically starts up a company that says, look, I'm going to take all the
Bank of America transactions,

1327
01:34:35,824 --> 01:34:40,824
and I'm going to file them and scan them and put them in, like, an Excel spreadsheet
or something,

1328
01:34:40,824 --> 01:34:43,824
and then just come over to my apartment, and I'll look it up for you,

1329
01:34:43,824 --> 01:34:49,824
or just give me a call and just say, hey, did Vin Armani pay me last Tuesday?

1330
01:34:49,824 --> 01:34:53,824
And then the person on the other line will look it up, and they'll say yes or no.

1331
01:34:53,824 --> 01:35:00,824
So, Hotep, do you have a mobile – I'm assuming you've got mobile wallets for Bitcoin
and other cryptocurrencies.

1332
01:35:00,824 --> 01:35:02,824
You got a mobile BTC wallet?

1333
01:35:02,824 --> 01:35:04,824
Do I have a mobile BTC wallet?

1334
01:35:04,824 --> 01:35:06,824
Yeah, like a blockchain or something like that.

1335
01:35:06,824 --> 01:35:07,824
Yes.

1336
01:35:07,824 --> 01:35:08,824
Like your wallet app.

1337
01:35:08,824 --> 01:35:09,824
Yes.

1338
01:35:09,824 --> 01:35:12,824
Your wallet app is doing exactly what Paul just described.

1339
01:35:12,824 --> 01:35:15,824
99% of the wallet app – oh, there you go.

1340
01:35:15,824 --> 01:35:16,824
I don't know.

1341
01:35:16,824 --> 01:35:17,824
It's probably not an SPV.

1342
01:35:17,824 --> 01:35:18,824
What do you got?

1343
01:35:18,824 --> 01:35:19,824
I got blockchain.

1344
01:35:19,824 --> 01:35:21,824
OK, blockchain.

1345
01:35:21,824 --> 01:35:22,824
Perfect example, right?

1346
01:35:22,824 --> 01:35:26,824
So blockchain.com – now, they used to be .info, so I always say that.

1347
01:35:26,824 --> 01:35:30,824
But blockchain.com, they have their own nodes that they run.

1348
01:35:30,824 --> 01:35:34,824
You're connecting to their infrastructure of that node.

1349
01:35:34,824 --> 01:35:38,824
So you're connecting to an API with that, and that's what's reading the blockchain.

1350
01:35:38,824 --> 01:35:40,824
You're not running a node.

1351
01:35:40,824 --> 01:35:46,824
That's – 99% of people who are interacting with any of these are already doing this.

1352
01:35:46,824 --> 01:35:47,824
And this is my point.

1353
01:35:47,824 --> 01:35:54,824
My point is that if we grow to global level, that the people who will be running the
infrastructure,

1354
01:35:54,824 --> 01:35:57,824
who will be running the nodes, will be businesses.

1355
01:35:57,824 --> 01:36:02,824
And so if you want security, you need to have the maximum number of businesses.

1356
01:36:02,824 --> 01:36:09,824
The difference with the BTC argument has always been, no, we need regular civilians
to be running nodes,

1357
01:36:09,824 --> 01:36:11,824
validating their nodes.

1358
01:36:11,824 --> 01:36:14,824
Anybody should be able to run a node, which is fine.

1359
01:36:14,824 --> 01:36:15,824
Sure.

1360
01:36:15,824 --> 01:36:16,824
Anybody –

1361
01:36:16,824 --> 01:36:18,824
Validate your own transactions.

1362
01:36:18,824 --> 01:36:20,824
Sure, if you want to do that.

1363
01:36:20,824 --> 01:36:26,824
But what I'm saying is I think it's unrealistic to expect that if there were a
billion people using Bitcoin,

1364
01:36:26,824 --> 01:36:31,824
that many more than are currently running nodes would be running nodes.

1365
01:36:31,824 --> 01:36:34,824
The new people who are coming on are not coming on and running nodes.

1366
01:36:34,824 --> 01:36:36,824
Peter McCormick doesn't run a damn node.

1367
01:36:36,824 --> 01:36:37,824
There was a big thing about that.

1368
01:36:37,824 --> 01:36:41,824
It's probably very unlikely that you, Hotep Jesus, will ever run a full node.

1369
01:36:41,824 --> 01:36:43,824
Paul Sztorc doesn't run a full node.

1370
01:36:43,824 --> 01:36:48,824
I, for my personal transactions, I don't run a full node.

1371
01:36:48,824 --> 01:36:53,824
The only reason I run a full node is because I run them for my business, right?

1372
01:36:53,824 --> 01:36:58,824
And other people connect to those as well to be able to interact.

1373
01:36:58,824 --> 01:37:02,824
So my business supports many transactions, right?

1374
01:37:02,824 --> 01:37:07,824
Tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of transactions are moving through the
infrastructure of my business.

1375
01:37:07,824 --> 01:37:10,824
They're trusting my node every time they do that.

1376
01:37:10,824 --> 01:37:16,824
It's noncustodial, but they're just trusting that I'm not lying to them about what
the contents of the blockchain are,

1377
01:37:16,824 --> 01:37:18,824
and that I'm hoarding on their transactions.

1378
01:37:18,824 --> 01:37:19,824
They're buying them.

1379
01:37:19,824 --> 01:37:27,824
Well, they're seeing that I have no incentive of lying to them about what's on the
blockchain

1380
01:37:27,824 --> 01:37:31,824
because I make my revenue from my business by putting their transactions on the
blockchain.

1381
01:37:31,824 --> 01:37:32,824
Right.

1382
01:37:32,824 --> 01:37:35,824
So if I lie to them, they'll stop using my business.

1383
01:37:35,824 --> 01:37:36,824
Exactly.

1384
01:37:36,824 --> 01:37:37,824
It's very straightforward.

1385
01:37:37,824 --> 01:37:47,824
And so my whole argument is that I think that those people who would sacrifice
businesses being incentivized to run nodes

1386
01:37:47,824 --> 01:37:55,824
for individuals who are not businesses to run nodes, I think, is a dumb decision.

1387
01:37:55,824 --> 01:37:57,824
All right. So, Paul.

1388
01:37:58,824 --> 01:37:59,824
Help me here, Paul.

1389
01:37:59,824 --> 01:38:00,824
Vin, don't cut him off.

1390
01:38:00,824 --> 01:38:02,824
Let him just go ahead and get his thoughts off.

1391
01:38:02,824 --> 01:38:03,824
Yes, there is a lot to say.

1392
01:38:03,824 --> 01:38:06,824
I mean, one, you've returned to this.

1393
01:38:06,824 --> 01:38:12,824
I hate to say it because I'm just trying to understand your point of view, and it's
going to sound like you're going to want to jump back in and clarify.

1394
01:38:12,824 --> 01:38:16,824
But, you know, this is just my style of thinking about things.

1395
01:38:16,824 --> 01:38:22,824
I mean, you've gone back to this theory that businesses are sort of have some kind
of immunity,

1396
01:38:22,824 --> 01:38:29,824
and if something's done by business, it will always be virtuous and infallible and
immune to tampering.

1397
01:38:29,824 --> 01:38:41,824
Many people fear that if it's difficult to run a node, there will be, you know, laws
or some kind of harassment of the people who do run the nodes.

1398
01:38:41,824 --> 01:38:49,824
And if they're concentrated in businesses that have a mailing address and a CEO, a
lot of people have concerns about that.

1399
01:38:50,824 --> 01:38:52,824
Those are what some people in the BTC community have.

1400
01:38:52,824 --> 01:38:56,824
I should also mention that I don't really toe the party line as the BTC.

1401
01:38:56,824 --> 01:38:59,824
You're supposed to, everyone's supposed to be running a full node, but I don't.

1402
01:38:59,824 --> 01:39:01,824
I'm a little unique in that way.

1403
01:39:01,824 --> 01:39:09,824
A couple other things that I think we should mention is that SPV is a little bit,
there's this mode called SPV, simplified payment.

1404
01:39:09,824 --> 01:39:10,824
Simplified payment verification.

1405
01:39:10,824 --> 01:39:12,824
Yes, and it's extremely clever.

1406
01:39:12,824 --> 01:39:13,824
It's ingenious.

1407
01:39:13,824 --> 01:39:14,824
I love it.

1408
01:39:14,824 --> 01:39:15,824
I think it's great.

1409
01:39:15,824 --> 01:39:21,824
Satoshi did something clever where he said he set up all the data structures in this
way.

1410
01:39:21,824 --> 01:39:22,824
It's almost magic.

1411
01:39:22,824 --> 01:39:27,824
It was to me because I didn't know cryptography before Bitcoin and I had to learn it
later.

1412
01:39:27,824 --> 01:39:34,824
It's really cool for just, I think it's something like 4.4 megabytes per year.

1413
01:39:34,824 --> 01:39:36,824
You can get all the headers for the block.

1414
01:39:36,824 --> 01:39:42,824
And it turns out the headers will tell you basically whether or not you're missing
any block.

1415
01:39:42,824 --> 01:39:48,824
It's difficult to describe unless someone knows, but it basically shows you that you
have.

1416
01:39:49,070 --> 01:39:58,830
The sequence of blocks, even though you don't have the contents, and this costs you
almost nothing. And from there you can do this Merkle branch thing.

1417
01:39:59,310 --> 01:40:02,030
Technically the proof is a Merkle branch inside of a Merkle tree.

1418
01:40:02,030 --> 01:40:11,790
And basically what this lets you do is for a very small, very, very small amount of
data, show the transactions in a block.

1419
01:40:12,630 --> 01:40:26,310
Satoshi set up this mode that's very ingenious where a regular person can basically
be lazy 99% of the time and still get something like 85% of the benefit.

1420
01:40:26,790 --> 01:40:28,790
So it's extremely clever.

1421
01:40:28,790 --> 01:40:37,790
You get to do almost no work and you still get to make sure that the chain exists
and that your transaction is in it, which is pretty neat.

1422
01:40:38,790 --> 01:40:41,790
What's this Neutrino they're talking about?

1423
01:40:42,790 --> 01:40:47,790
That is, as I understand it, new. Yeah, that's a technical thing.

1424
01:40:47,790 --> 01:41:00,790
And I can't guarantee anything I'm about to say, but it's something along the lines
of a SPV mode where it is shouting out some kind of filter constantly.

1425
01:41:00,790 --> 01:41:02,790
See, normally you'd have to ask it. You'd have to call up.

1426
01:41:02,790 --> 01:41:06,790
The analogy I used before, you have to call up your friend and say, did Vin Armani
pay?

1427
01:41:06,790 --> 01:41:09,790
He says he paid me on Monday. Is that true or not?

1428
01:41:09,790 --> 01:41:11,790
And you can look it up and you can say, oh, yes, he did.

1429
01:41:11,790 --> 01:41:21,790
But with this, the guy running that node, he would kind of be able to post some kind
of thing, some kind of filter.

1430
01:41:21,790 --> 01:41:28,790
He'd broadcast out some little, he'd put like a little staple up a little piece of
paper or something.

1431
01:41:28,790 --> 01:41:39,790
And it would be very small and you would be able to take your transaction plus his
paper and do some kind of math and see if your transaction was in the block without
interacting with him.

1432
01:41:39,790 --> 01:41:42,790
So it's superior privacy. That's what I remember from it.

1433
01:41:42,790 --> 01:41:49,790
I apologize. I know that whoever designed that is cringing at whatever I just turned
that explanation into.

1434
01:41:50,790 --> 01:41:58,790
But I think the main, the key difference is that you don't have to interact with the
person and call them up and ask them specifically.

1435
01:41:58,790 --> 01:42:01,790
So there's more privacy. I think that was the key thing.

1436
01:42:01,790 --> 01:42:03,790
There may have been many more important things.

1437
01:42:03,790 --> 01:42:07,790
And if you want to try it out, it's been forked for BCH.

1438
01:42:07,790 --> 01:42:15,790
Actually, Chris Pacia from Open Bazaar and BCHD and Josh Ellithorp from Coinbase and
also BCHD.

1439
01:42:15,790 --> 01:42:20,790
The Neutrino wallet, you can actually, on mobile, it actually is doing this.

1440
01:42:20,790 --> 01:42:28,790
And it's actually a really cool SPV wallet that can connect to a full node as well,
which is pretty sick.

1441
01:42:28,790 --> 01:42:31,790
Like if you have a full node at home, it can connect right to it.

1442
01:42:31,790 --> 01:42:37,790
So yes, they may be talking about the Neutrino wallet in the chat, actually.

1443
01:42:37,790 --> 01:42:39,790
They may not be talking about the full project.

1444
01:42:39,790 --> 01:42:42,790
SPV is very clever, but it has a limitation, of course.

1445
01:42:42,790 --> 01:42:43,790
There's always a catch.

1446
01:42:43,790 --> 01:42:49,790
The catch is that you don't actually know if the headers that you've got, which are
very small,

1447
01:42:49,790 --> 01:42:54,790
you don't actually know if those are real headers to a Bitcoin block.

1448
01:42:54,790 --> 01:42:58,790
You think they are, but since you can't see the contents of the block, you don't
know.

1449
01:42:58,790 --> 01:43:03,790
And you don't know if the miners minted a trillion coins and gave them to themselves
in that block

1450
01:43:03,790 --> 01:43:10,790
or if they added up the fees incorrectly, like the fees added up to 1.3 Bitcoin,

1451
01:43:10,790 --> 01:43:18,790
or the miners just credited themselves 100 Bitcoin, or the blocks could contain
transactions.

1452
01:43:18,790 --> 01:43:29,790
Like it could, in SPV world, a miner or the mining process even, so just all the
miners,

1453
01:43:29,790 --> 01:43:31,790
could put in an invalid transaction.

1454
01:43:31,790 --> 01:43:36,790
It's basically a check written from VIN to me that's not good, but it could be in
the block anyway,

1455
01:43:36,790 --> 01:43:39,790
and only the full nodes would know that it was an invalid check.

1456
01:43:39,790 --> 01:43:42,790
So then when I call you up on the phone or whoever's running the service,

1457
01:43:42,790 --> 01:43:45,790
they would tell me that, yes, here's a check, VIN paid,

1458
01:43:45,790 --> 01:43:50,790
but actually only the full nodes would know that that check is bad,

1459
01:43:50,790 --> 01:43:53,790
and in fact all the blocks are also invalid.

1460
01:43:53,790 --> 01:43:57,790
And so SPV is extremely clever.

1461
01:43:57,790 --> 01:44:01,790
I wrote a giant 46-page thing about fraud proofs,

1462
01:44:01,790 --> 01:44:07,790
which are the missing ingredient to make SPV as secure as full nodes,

1463
01:44:07,790 --> 01:44:15,790
but it's 46 pages and it's just truly insane nonsense full of crazy economics

1464
01:44:15,790 --> 01:44:18,790
and just the weird ceremonies you have to do.

1465
01:44:18,790 --> 01:44:22,790
You basically have to do it inside of a lightning payment channel for it to even
work,

1466
01:44:22,790 --> 01:44:29,790
so it kind of weirdly requires lightning to get the fraud proofs for this SPV scheme
that I dreamed up.

1467
01:44:29,790 --> 01:44:33,790
But, yeah, SPV is very clever.

1468
01:44:34,790 --> 01:44:39,790
But, again, without some people running nodes, the network is dead.

1469
01:44:39,790 --> 01:44:41,790
So we've already established that's like the bookend.

1470
01:44:41,790 --> 01:44:47,790
And then as you get closer to that edge, you run the risk.

1471
01:44:47,790 --> 01:44:50,790
There's this concentration, only a few insiders.

1472
01:44:50,790 --> 01:44:53,790
You're moving back towards the trusted third-party world.

1473
01:44:53,790 --> 01:44:56,790
You're still very far away from it relative to the traditional banking system.

1474
01:44:56,790 --> 01:44:58,790
I don't think anyone disputes that.

1475
01:44:58,790 --> 01:45:02,790
In fact, I think even Greg Maxwell made a Reddit post about something like that at
one point.

1476
01:45:02,790 --> 01:45:03,790
If memory serves.

1477
01:45:03,790 --> 01:45:13,790
But you are moving further away from – there's a difference between if you like
owning a gun

1478
01:45:13,790 --> 01:45:17,790
and you being able to call up someone who owns a gun and ask for help.

1479
01:45:17,790 --> 01:45:20,790
It's like you want to have your own stuff.

1480
01:45:20,790 --> 01:45:28,790
This is a piece of software that is trying to guarantee ownership and title over
things.

1481
01:45:28,790 --> 01:45:32,790
So it's understandable that people do not want it messed with.

1482
01:45:32,790 --> 01:45:36,790
It is definitely – at one point I used the debt ceiling image in an argument.

1483
01:45:36,790 --> 01:45:40,790
I was cataloging arguments about the block size.

1484
01:45:40,790 --> 01:45:45,790
And a lot of people think, well, if we raise it now, then who's to stop us from just
raising it forever

1485
01:45:45,790 --> 01:45:48,790
until the network is dead as a way of attacking the network

1486
01:45:48,790 --> 01:45:58,790
or just so the network can be more easily harassed, let's say.

1487
01:45:58,790 --> 01:46:04,790
And so the idea that it's free and that there's complete neutrality between small
block transaction

1488
01:46:04,790 --> 01:46:08,790
and large block transaction I think isn't true.

1489
01:46:08,790 --> 01:46:11,790
I think mostly everyone agrees that it's not true.

1490
01:46:11,790 --> 01:46:12,790
At least that's –

1491
01:46:12,790 --> 01:46:14,790
Then what's on your mind?

1492
01:46:14,790 --> 01:46:19,790
I think this is actually what Paul is saying right here.

1493
01:46:19,790 --> 01:46:25,790
I actually do not disagree at all with anything that he has just said.

1494
01:46:25,790 --> 01:46:31,790
And it's actually the reason why I think it is very important for BTC to exist

1495
01:46:31,790 --> 01:46:40,790
and for there to be the constant discussion within some community of people who are
incredibly brilliant

1496
01:46:40,790 --> 01:46:46,790
and who are concerned about let's make the – let's think adversarially

1497
01:46:46,790 --> 01:46:50,790
and let's think about what's the absolute worst case – hold on.

1498
01:46:50,790 --> 01:46:54,790
Let's think – if you have – if I'm misrepresenting your – no, if I'm misrepresenting
your position,

1499
01:46:54,790 --> 01:46:56,790
please tell me now because I was going to block.

1500
01:46:56,790 --> 01:46:59,790
Then doesn't it all – it all hinges on brilliance then.

1501
01:46:59,790 --> 01:47:01,790
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

1502
01:47:01,790 --> 01:47:04,790
One megabyte forever as they say. Now it doesn't hinge on anything.

1503
01:47:04,790 --> 01:47:06,790
But you're saying, oh, we need to have all this.

1504
01:47:06,790 --> 01:47:09,790
No, no. I'm not talking about the block size.

1505
01:47:09,790 --> 01:47:10,790
I'm not talking about the block size.

1506
01:47:10,790 --> 01:47:16,790
I'm saying that there needs to be an environment where people who –

1507
01:47:16,790 --> 01:47:18,790
because I will tell you this.

1508
01:47:18,790 --> 01:47:22,790
That is not the – let's say the priority.

1509
01:47:22,790 --> 01:47:24,790
It certainly goes down in priority list, right?

1510
01:47:24,790 --> 01:47:28,790
Like adversarial thinking is not a part of BSV, right?

1511
01:47:28,790 --> 01:47:30,790
It's just not.

1512
01:47:30,790 --> 01:47:32,790
They're all over the map.

1513
01:47:32,790 --> 01:47:34,790
They're everywhere.

1514
01:47:34,790 --> 01:47:37,790
Drug trade, impossible.

1515
01:47:38,790 --> 01:47:42,790
Their approach is very much like – and they said this many times.

1516
01:47:42,790 --> 01:47:44,790
Let's try to break it.

1517
01:47:44,790 --> 01:47:47,790
Like let's try to break the network, and that will make the network better,

1518
01:47:47,790 --> 01:47:50,790
even though they have nobody to fix what they've broken.

1519
01:47:50,790 --> 01:47:53,790
And then it kind of goes down, and it's like BCH says, look,

1520
01:47:53,790 --> 01:47:56,790
we want to be peer-to-peer cash for the world.

1521
01:47:56,790 --> 01:47:58,790
We've got a vision of how that's going to happen.

1522
01:47:58,790 --> 01:48:02,790
We don't expect if we go all this way that people –

1523
01:48:02,790 --> 01:48:06,790
that there are going to be certain things that the average Joe doesn't care about at
all.

1524
01:48:06,790 --> 01:48:09,790
He just wants to know that his money – that he's not going to lose his money.

1525
01:48:09,790 --> 01:48:13,790
So that's basically where BCH is like, you know what?

1526
01:48:13,790 --> 01:48:15,790
We've got some room.

1527
01:48:15,790 --> 01:48:18,790
But in BTC – and this is why I think that it's actually very important

1528
01:48:18,790 --> 01:48:23,790
and why I would say that there needs to be competition

1529
01:48:23,790 --> 01:48:25,790
and there needs to be the ability to fork away

1530
01:48:25,790 --> 01:48:27,790
and have different roadmaps and different visions,

1531
01:48:27,790 --> 01:48:33,790
is that I think there's incredible value within BTC for the preference to be,

1532
01:48:33,790 --> 01:48:38,790
look, let's look at every possible security eventuality.

1533
01:48:38,790 --> 01:48:41,790
Let's really drill into the things that we're doing here,

1534
01:48:41,790 --> 01:48:48,790
and let's see if we can make this thing as secure as possible at all times,

1535
01:48:48,790 --> 01:48:50,790
in the off chance, right?

1536
01:48:50,790 --> 01:48:54,790
Because what does happen, as Paul is saying, right?

1537
01:48:54,790 --> 01:48:59,790
Like what does happen if all the governments all of a sudden turn

1538
01:48:59,790 --> 01:49:04,790
and all of a sudden now it's illegal to run your own node

1539
01:49:04,790 --> 01:49:06,790
or to use Bitcoin or any of these things?

1540
01:49:06,790 --> 01:49:10,790
It's going to be – it's sort of like creating a bunker, right?

1541
01:49:10,790 --> 01:49:15,790
And stocking it full of food and saying, look, what if this war comes?

1542
01:49:15,790 --> 01:49:17,790
What if a famine comes?

1543
01:49:17,790 --> 01:49:19,790
That's the person that survives.

1544
01:49:19,790 --> 01:49:23,790
And honestly, I have to concede to Paul that absolutely,

1545
01:49:23,790 --> 01:49:26,790
if the US government right now decided that they were going to outlaw Bitcoin

1546
01:49:26,790 --> 01:49:29,790
and all of the Western nations followed suit,

1547
01:49:29,790 --> 01:49:32,790
if they were throwing people in jail who were running full nodes,

1548
01:49:32,790 --> 01:49:34,790
all of that, BCH is done.

1549
01:49:34,790 --> 01:49:35,790
Done.

1550
01:49:35,790 --> 01:49:40,790
Because the roadmap is not built with that eventuality looking forward.

1551
01:49:40,790 --> 01:49:44,790
The roadmap is built to say we've got time to build this up,

1552
01:49:44,790 --> 01:49:47,790
and if we get to a point where it's built up,

1553
01:49:47,790 --> 01:49:49,790
we'll be able to affect legislative things.

1554
01:49:49,790 --> 01:49:51,790
We'll be able to buy politicians.

1555
01:49:51,790 --> 01:49:53,790
We'll be able to lobby.

1556
01:49:53,790 --> 01:49:57,790
All of these things, that's the view of the future and the hope.

1557
01:49:57,790 --> 01:49:59,790
But I absolutely agree.

1558
01:49:59,790 --> 01:50:03,790
I don't disagree with anything that Paul has just said.

1559
01:50:03,790 --> 01:50:07,790
There are vulnerabilities to be found if you go looking for them,

1560
01:50:07,790 --> 01:50:10,790
and they are aplenty in Bitcoin at the moment.

1561
01:50:10,790 --> 01:50:13,790
And I think that people should be thinking about them in BTC

1562
01:50:13,790 --> 01:50:18,790
and like Paul has been doing for years, coming up with possible solutions.

1563
01:50:18,790 --> 01:50:21,790
Okay, but I do want to push back on one thing that you did say, though,

1564
01:50:21,790 --> 01:50:27,790
that it's kind of often cast as though it's like will some event happen or not,

1565
01:50:27,790 --> 01:50:33,790
like will all the governments be upset at Bitcoin or not,

1566
01:50:33,790 --> 01:50:37,790
as though it's kind of rolling a five on a dice or something.

1567
01:50:37,790 --> 01:50:45,790
But I don't really think that that is an accurate explanation of what's going on.

1568
01:50:45,790 --> 01:50:50,790
Al Capone once said you can get more of what you want in life with a kind word

1569
01:50:50,790 --> 01:50:53,790
than you can with just a kind word, right?

1570
01:50:53,790 --> 01:51:01,790
It's like the ability to go into the bunker is kind of like that makes it so that
you will never have to use it

1571
01:51:01,790 --> 01:51:03,790
because people know you've got that ace up your sleeve,

1572
01:51:03,790 --> 01:51:06,790
and if anything goes wrong, you're going to be in that bunker.

1573
01:51:06,790 --> 01:51:08,790
And so they're like, well, what are we going to do?

1574
01:51:08,790 --> 01:51:09,790
They've got a bunker.

1575
01:51:09,790 --> 01:51:12,790
So it changes the interaction.

1576
01:51:12,790 --> 01:51:20,790
Which types of behaviors are possible, when that changes, the behavior also changes.

1577
01:51:20,790 --> 01:51:32,790
So it's very different when if, you know, whether or not certain groups of people
can or can't do something,

1578
01:51:32,790 --> 01:51:34,790
that is what determines whether or not they'll do it.

1579
01:51:34,790 --> 01:51:40,790
It's not like it's just some random thing, all the governments decided they hate
Bitcoin today,

1580
01:51:40,790 --> 01:51:44,790
that's not like it's not like will it rain tomorrow.

1581
01:51:44,790 --> 01:51:46,790
Oh, I 100 percent agree.

1582
01:51:46,790 --> 01:51:48,790
And that's why I said to start it out.

1583
01:51:48,790 --> 01:51:53,790
It's why I believe that that BTC is incredibly valuable and should exist.

1584
01:51:53,790 --> 01:51:57,790
It's for the exact reason that you said, because there is a bunker,

1585
01:51:57,790 --> 01:52:01,790
actually changes the entire landscape of what governments have to think about.

1586
01:52:01,790 --> 01:52:09,790
Right. So in some ways, BCH is able to experiment in the way that we are because BTC
exists in the way that it does.

1587
01:52:09,790 --> 01:52:12,790
And it's right. And it's so.

1588
01:52:12,790 --> 01:52:18,790
But again, for me as an entrepreneur, what I'm most interested in building on,

1589
01:52:18,790 --> 01:52:22,790
and it's one of the reasons why I think that the acrimony between the chains is kind
of silly,

1590
01:52:22,790 --> 01:52:28,790
because BTC doing what they're doing, in my opinion, only benefits BCH.

1591
01:52:28,790 --> 01:52:32,790
I don't fall in with the maximalist idea that somehow.

1592
01:52:32,790 --> 01:52:34,790
And I don't think that BCH is hurting BTC.

1593
01:52:34,790 --> 01:52:43,790
I actually think that BCH existing is helpful for BTC because it's yet another
experiment going out there of another different species of Bitcoin.

1594
01:52:43,790 --> 01:52:48,790
And I think what BSV is doing as well is helpful for both of the other chains.

1595
01:52:48,790 --> 01:52:52,790
But it's and it's it's the communities of us.

1596
01:52:52,790 --> 01:52:56,790
You know, I have a preference. You have a preference. And I want to.

1597
01:52:56,790 --> 01:53:00,790
It's like sports teams. I want to say that my sports team is the best.

1598
01:53:00,790 --> 01:53:04,790
And we might even fight in the stands because you're puring for your team.

1599
01:53:04,790 --> 01:53:11,790
But at the end of the day, thank God that team is there for my team to play, because
otherwise we'd have nobody to play.

1600
01:53:11,790 --> 01:53:15,790
Well, yeah. Jack Dorsey would have.

1601
01:53:15,790 --> 01:53:19,790
He wouldn't have a drama, big drama machine about that.

1602
01:53:19,790 --> 01:53:23,790
I don't think, you know, a team is very symmetric.

1603
01:53:24,790 --> 01:53:31,790
You really do. You're really married to this point that whatever the entrepreneurs
will like automatically succeed.

1604
01:53:31,790 --> 01:53:34,790
I don't think that's the case, you know. No, no, no.

1605
01:53:34,790 --> 01:53:40,790
That's not my point, Paul. Eliminating the corporate tax would help entrepreneurs.

1606
01:53:40,790 --> 01:53:42,790
But that's not happening anytime soon, right?

1607
01:53:42,790 --> 01:53:46,790
As an entrepreneur, I know that the majority of businesses started will fail.

1608
01:53:46,790 --> 01:53:51,790
But what I also so I don't believe that anything an entrepreneur does succeeds.

1609
01:53:51,790 --> 01:53:54,790
That's just that's that's a complete mischaracterization.

1610
01:53:54,790 --> 01:54:01,790
That's what I was saying. I'm saying you're saying anything that is good for
entrepreneurship will be will thrive.

1611
01:54:01,790 --> 01:54:12,790
No, I said what I said is if you're looking for to bet on an economy, a smart bet is
to bet on an economy that is geared toward promoting entrepreneurship.

1612
01:54:12,790 --> 01:54:18,790
So and that's I don't think that that's like I don't know that that why that would
be controversial.

1613
01:54:18,790 --> 01:54:28,790
Like that a free market environment like a Hong Kong would have a more robust
economy than North Korea seems self-evident to me.

1614
01:54:28,790 --> 01:54:32,790
I mean, yeah, Hong Kong until. Hong Kong until 2019.

1615
01:54:32,790 --> 01:54:36,790
But right. And so and that proves the point, right?

1616
01:54:36,790 --> 01:54:41,790
It proves the point that that and.

1617
01:54:41,790 --> 01:54:50,790
Go ahead. You draw a straight line from good for entrepreneurs, low fees, BCH, but
the line doesn't go to BSV.

1618
01:54:50,790 --> 01:54:55,790
It doesn't go to custodial wallets. It doesn't go to layer two. Yeah, it may go to
layer two in the future.

1619
01:54:55,790 --> 01:55:00,790
I just it's a big deal for me. It doesn't for me. It doesn't for me is what I'm
saying.

1620
01:55:01,790 --> 01:55:05,790
But it does for other people because other people are making other decisions.

1621
01:55:05,790 --> 01:55:10,790
Right. So it's like I don't expect everyone to make the same decision that I'm
making.

1622
01:55:10,790 --> 01:55:14,790
Not everybody bets on the same horse in a race, obviously.

1623
01:55:14,790 --> 01:55:18,790
Right. And and at the moment, I'm not betting on the favorite.

1624
01:55:18,790 --> 01:55:27,790
I granted I'm not betting on the favorite, but I believe that I have some
information about the one that's slated to to be third.

1625
01:55:27,790 --> 01:55:29,790
Yeah, well, maybe other people want that.

1626
01:55:29,790 --> 01:55:38,790
A very cool thing that is funny is that as the coin sort of as other people think
that coins future,

1627
01:55:38,790 --> 01:55:43,790
as other people become pessimistic, the price goes down and you can get an even
bigger return.

1628
01:55:43,790 --> 01:55:47,790
If you're right when other people are wrong, it's the magic of.

1629
01:55:47,790 --> 01:55:53,790
And and the new business that I'm the new business that I'm building actually will
make more profits.

1630
01:55:53,790 --> 01:56:00,790
Well, the current business that I'm in actually makes more profits if the price goes
down.

1631
01:56:00,790 --> 01:56:08,790
So I think that there's you're going to see a whole new class of businesses that any
stable coin business that's operating on stable coins.

1632
01:56:08,790 --> 01:56:12,790
This is true of that. If the price goes down, therefore the fees go down.

1633
01:56:12,790 --> 01:56:16,790
But the price of that five hundred forty six Satoshi stays at a dollar.

1634
01:56:16,790 --> 01:56:18,790
They actually have higher profit margins.

1635
01:56:18,790 --> 01:56:24,790
So I think we're going to see a whole new class of businesses that are using Bitcoin
in a different way.

1636
01:56:24,790 --> 01:56:31,790
And where this idea of the price being higher or lower like I see, I see Satoshi
like oil.

1637
01:56:31,790 --> 01:56:34,790
And if oil is low, that's good for entrepreneurs. Right.

1638
01:56:34,790 --> 01:56:39,790
If the price of oil is really high, that's bad for entrepreneurs. And that's how I
see Satoshi.

1639
01:56:40,790 --> 01:56:44,790
I know, but it's like why Venmo is free, like why?

1640
01:56:44,790 --> 01:56:53,790
I'm still not fully grasping the first point you made about how central the fee
question is for you.

1641
01:56:53,790 --> 01:56:59,790
The main benefits are lost if a trusted third party is still required to prevent
double spending.

1642
01:56:59,790 --> 01:57:04,790
If you're running a business and you have a mailing address, it would seem that you
would not have.

1643
01:57:04,790 --> 01:57:08,790
Well, I guess you were saying before about running an all cash business.

1644
01:57:08,790 --> 01:57:12,790
What I'm saying is that I have I mean, I came to this from a particular place.

1645
01:57:12,790 --> 01:57:18,790
I'm obviously a libertarian. I obviously want people know my history in that regard.

1646
01:57:18,790 --> 01:57:20,790
I come to this from an ideological bent.

1647
01:57:20,790 --> 01:57:24,790
I want people to have more financial sovereignty and I want to participate in giving
that to them.

1648
01:57:24,790 --> 01:57:35,790
And I think that moving from out of the banking system is going to be beneficial,
not just to myself and not just to my family and children, but to the entire world.

1649
01:57:35,790 --> 01:57:38,790
I think that it's preferable and it's worth it for me.

1650
01:57:38,790 --> 01:57:45,790
It makes it worth it for me to wake up in the morning and work on a project that I
wouldn't if I was waking up and working for Wells Fargo.

1651
01:57:45,790 --> 01:57:48,790
Well, I can certainly understand that.

1652
01:57:48,790 --> 01:57:52,790
But you're not you're not concerned at all about any of this other stuff.

1653
01:57:52,790 --> 01:57:58,790
BSV having even lower fees. I know you contest, but I'm not concerned about BSV.

1654
01:57:59,790 --> 01:58:01,790
It's something out of BCH squared.

1655
01:58:01,790 --> 01:58:05,790
Someone releases a new BCH. It's exactly like BCH, but the blocks are even lower.

1656
01:58:05,790 --> 01:58:09,790
I'll deal with it. I'll deal with it then. I can only deal with the landscape that
exists.

1657
01:58:09,790 --> 01:58:13,790
OK, but you have some expectations about the future.

1658
01:58:13,790 --> 01:58:16,790
I mean, that's what this whole conversation will be.

1659
01:58:16,790 --> 01:58:19,790
Many more forks. I think we have not seen the last of the forks.

1660
01:58:19,790 --> 01:58:24,790
I think there will be many more. And I think at every time I'll have to make a
decision for myself and my business.

1661
01:58:25,790 --> 01:58:37,790
But with BTC, you're not worried about any layer two coming along one day that just
brings the fee.

1662
01:58:37,790 --> 01:58:40,790
Why would I be worried? I'll just build on top of it.

1663
01:58:40,790 --> 01:58:42,790
Why would I be worried? I'll build on top of it.

1664
01:58:42,790 --> 01:58:48,790
The conversation is about whether or not we should be pessimistic about BCH or not.

1665
01:58:48,790 --> 01:59:00,790
Wouldn't that spell, if not doom, extreme problems for BCH if something else, a
different fork or BTC layer two?

1666
01:59:00,790 --> 01:59:04,790
I just build my business on top of it as well.

1667
01:59:04,790 --> 01:59:08,790
And it doesn't have to be either or. I can build both.

1668
01:59:08,790 --> 01:59:11,790
I can have my business on top of that.

1669
01:59:12,790 --> 01:59:16,790
This conversation is supposed to be about BCH as I understand it.

1670
01:59:16,790 --> 01:59:18,790
Or BCH rather than BTC.

1671
01:59:18,790 --> 01:59:29,790
I mean, I think it is. And what I'm saying is that you can't build profitable
businesses at this moment on top of on-chain BTC.

1672
01:59:29,790 --> 01:59:31,790
Now, it may very well be.

1673
01:59:31,790 --> 01:59:36,790
I don't agree with that. I guess I would agree with it too.

1674
01:59:37,790 --> 01:59:39,790
The type of businesses that I'm building.

1675
01:59:39,790 --> 01:59:48,790
The particular type of businesses that I'm building, which it sounds like is the
same type of business that Hotep Jesus is dealing with, where you're taking a fee on
every transaction.

1676
01:59:48,790 --> 01:59:56,790
This is what I believe is needed to and what is the natural business that should be
in this space right now.

1677
01:59:56,790 --> 02:00:03,790
Facilitating more people coming on board, making more transactions, and you're going
to take a fee for so doing.

1678
02:00:03,790 --> 02:00:08,790
And the higher the miner fees are, the lower your profit margins if you're in that
business.

1679
02:00:08,790 --> 02:00:12,790
That's just self-evident. It's straight up.

1680
02:00:12,790 --> 02:00:17,790
And so for me, I can't build on BTC.

1681
02:00:17,790 --> 02:00:21,790
And I've tried. We've got an implementation on BTC.

1682
02:00:21,790 --> 02:00:23,790
Why can't you build on BTC?

1683
02:00:23,790 --> 02:00:27,790
Because the amount that we would – we basically can't take a fee.

1684
02:00:27,790 --> 02:00:29,790
We already take very small fees per transaction.

1685
02:00:30,790 --> 02:00:33,790
Are you saying the network is eating into the profit margins?

1686
02:00:33,790 --> 02:00:42,790
Yeah. We simply couldn't – we can't charge additional money on top of already
somebody paying $0.30.

1687
02:00:42,790 --> 02:00:47,790
We can't charge them another $0.02 in the same way that we can charge them $0.02 on
top of zero.

1688
02:00:47,790 --> 02:00:50,790
They're like, oh, I could pay $0.02. No problem.

1689
02:00:50,790 --> 02:00:52,790
The market will hold $0.02.

1690
02:00:52,790 --> 02:00:58,790
And even if it'll hold $0.30, theoretically, could we maybe charge them $0.20?
$0.10?

1691
02:00:58,790 --> 02:00:59,790
It makes sense, right?

1692
02:00:59,790 --> 02:01:05,790
And so I think that this from an entrepreneur looking at this is like, well, I'm
going to go to the place that's cheaper.

1693
02:01:05,790 --> 02:01:10,790
Even if it's got a little less – because it's not just your revenue. It's also your
expenses.

1694
02:01:10,790 --> 02:01:12,790
You've repeated this point. I get what you're saying.

1695
02:01:12,790 --> 02:01:13,790
It makes a lot of sense.

1696
02:01:13,790 --> 02:01:26,790
And I understand why you – an individual who wants to do something with crypto, they
would be away from BTC Layer 1 and they would move towards BCH.

1697
02:01:26,790 --> 02:01:33,790
I can fully understand that, but I really think that – what I'm trying to talk about
is a slightly different thing.

1698
02:01:33,790 --> 02:01:41,790
It's like when the dust clears, is there really going to be a place for BCH in the
future?

1699
02:01:41,790 --> 02:01:55,790
Is there going to be a moment when everyone flocks to BCH because it has some
permanent inimitable quality that everyone knows to be better and everyone switches
to at the same time?

1700
02:01:55,790 --> 02:01:56,790
Hold on. Hold on.

1701
02:01:56,790 --> 02:02:06,790
Do you believe a logic that says whatever is good for Vin Armani's business, that
equals the coin will succeed?

1702
02:02:06,790 --> 02:02:16,790
What it does is this. Whatever is good for Vin Armani's business, there's a pretty
good chance that my business isn't the only one that it's good for.

1703
02:02:16,790 --> 02:02:17,790
Right.

1704
02:02:17,790 --> 02:02:19,790
That's what I'm going off of, right?

1705
02:02:19,790 --> 02:02:21,790
True.

1706
02:02:22,790 --> 02:02:27,790
Say whatever is good for a whole class of businesses or a whole family of
businesses. That's fine.

1707
02:02:27,790 --> 02:02:33,790
But that doesn't necessarily mean that that is the only – or that is the path to
success.

1708
02:02:33,790 --> 02:02:36,790
Well, not even. It's about making a bet, right?

1709
02:02:36,790 --> 02:02:38,790
If I'm going to make a bet, I've got to –

1710
02:02:38,790 --> 02:02:43,790
Your bet is just that it's better today. It's cheaper today, right? If I'm
understanding you.

1711
02:02:43,790 --> 02:02:46,790
Paul, is it going to be cheaper in the future still?

1712
02:02:46,790 --> 02:02:53,790
I think BTC will flesh out several layer twos. I just gave the one simple –

1713
02:02:53,790 --> 02:02:56,790
What about VCH? Is VCH still going to be cheap?

1714
02:02:56,790 --> 02:03:05,790
Yeah, I think VCH will also – I think that's – the point I was trying to make in the
opening remarks is that I actually think they'll all end up being very similar.

1715
02:03:05,790 --> 02:03:09,790
We have a different –

1716
02:03:09,790 --> 02:03:11,790
We got Zender.

1717
02:03:11,790 --> 02:03:14,790
Just take it all. Everyone will take whatever works.

1718
02:03:14,790 --> 02:03:20,790
Zender, you mentioned 25 RON. I don't know what RON is. Somebody can help me out
with that currency.

1719
02:03:20,790 --> 02:03:28,790
Can an attacker do a 10-block reorg and create a permanent split of the network in
VCH because of checkpoints?

1720
02:03:28,790 --> 02:03:35,790
Yeah, I think – I don't actually understand. I'm not – from what I've heard, the
answer to that question is yes.

1721
02:03:35,790 --> 02:03:41,790
Can they do a 10-block reorg and create a permanent split? Well, that would be a
hard fork.

1722
02:03:41,790 --> 02:03:43,790
I mean, of course, anyone can hard fork.

1723
02:03:43,790 --> 02:03:50,790
No, this is different than that. This is – what was installed – I remember your
video, in fact, the hash war.

1724
02:03:50,790 --> 02:03:58,790
You gave advice about VCH, BSV, and I'm possibly in reaction to the video for all I
know.

1725
02:03:58,790 --> 02:04:04,790
VCH intentionally said they kind of put a – it's hard to describe.

1726
02:04:04,790 --> 02:04:11,790
They put like a kind of wedge, and they say if the reorgs are less than 10 blocks,
we crush them.

1727
02:04:11,790 --> 02:04:19,790
But if they're more than 10 blocks, the whole network splits open, and it – so it
makes an attack for 10 blocks much worse,

1728
02:04:19,790 --> 02:04:26,790
but it makes the other attacks ignorable because there was concern about –

1729
02:04:26,790 --> 02:04:34,790
there was this weird meme floating around that Calvin Air would use billions of
dollars to harass the VCH network.

1730
02:04:34,790 --> 02:04:39,790
This is what I remember. I haven't looked into this at all, but from what I have,
the answer is yes.

1731
02:04:39,790 --> 02:04:41,790
I think the mechanism is a little bit different there.

1732
02:04:41,790 --> 02:04:45,790
So these checkpoints have existed. Satoshi put in some checkpoints.

1733
02:04:45,790 --> 02:04:48,790
There was a checkpoint at the hard fork.

1734
02:04:48,790 --> 02:04:58,555
Basically what it says is it says that in order for this chain to be valid, it must
include this block hash.

1735
02:04:58,555 --> 02:05:03,555
So it must include this block hash basically in this place in order to be valid.

1736
02:05:04,555 --> 02:05:08,555
Yes, but I think that this is something different. This is something that was added
specifically.

1737
02:05:09,555 --> 02:05:12,555
It's a rolling checkpoint, yeah.

1738
02:05:13,555 --> 02:05:16,555
Yeah, but this is very different in character than going back 100,000 blocks and
saying,

1739
02:05:17,555 --> 02:05:25,555
well, you really don't need to validate before this because that was like two years
ago, and so we only need to validate –

1740
02:05:26,555 --> 02:05:28,555
Anyone who goes back more than 10 blocks –

1741
02:05:29,555 --> 02:05:31,555
Going back more than 10 blocks is possible. That could be one thing.

1742
02:05:32,555 --> 02:05:33,555
Absolutely, but if they do –

1743
02:05:34,555 --> 02:05:36,555
Going back two years is really not possible.

1744
02:05:36,555 --> 02:05:46,555
Absolutely. If they go back more than 10 blocks, what will happen is that all of the
nodes that are running the current ABC software will not recognize –

1745
02:05:47,555 --> 02:05:48,555
Yes, they're –

1746
02:05:49,555 --> 02:05:51,555
Yes, and so that is a hard fork. That becomes a hard fork.

1747
02:05:52,555 --> 02:05:56,555
Well, there's actually – I wrote a whole blog post on how the terminology behind the
hard fork is all ruined.

1748
02:05:57,555 --> 02:05:59,555
It's the equivalent of a hard fork.

1749
02:06:00,555 --> 02:06:07,555
It could be a permanent split because all the nodes, if you're asleep, your computer
is asleep, turn it back on, and it tries to figure out what's going on.

1750
02:06:08,555 --> 02:06:12,555
It won't know which came first chronologically because that was the same timestamps
the attacker will put in.

1751
02:06:13,555 --> 02:06:17,555
Now, let's talk about why that's – now, let's talk about why from an economic –

1752
02:06:18,555 --> 02:06:23,555
Now, you don't know which one is real, and you have to wait and try to receive money
on both or –

1753
02:06:23,555 --> 02:06:37,555
No, let's talk about from an economic incentive standpoint why an attacker wouldn't
do that, and the reason why is all of the exchanges run ABC nodes, all of them.

1754
02:06:38,555 --> 02:06:43,555
And so you could go ahead and fork, but where are you going to sell those coins?

1755
02:06:44,555 --> 02:06:49,555
You're either going to have to get a new ticker or you just wasted a whole – it
would be very expensive to pull this off.

1756
02:06:50,555 --> 02:07:01,555
So maybe you, for a little while, you fooled some of these people whose nodes were
asleep until they switch over to ABC software and then they re-sync with the
network,

1757
02:07:02,555 --> 02:07:04,555
but you're not going to be able to sell your coins to anybody.

1758
02:07:05,555 --> 02:07:12,555
No wallet's going to support it and pick it up because all of the wallets are – the
major wallets are all connecting to ABC nodes.

1759
02:07:12,555 --> 02:07:24,555
And so when this would become a potential issue, and it may be an issue very soon,
we will see, is those checkpoints, as I understand it, are not in Bitcoin Unlimited.

1760
02:07:25,555 --> 02:07:30,555
And Bitcoin Unlimited, I believe at this point, has about 50% of the nodes on the
network.

1761
02:07:30,555 --> 02:07:47,555
So in theory, if Bitcoin Unlimited could get exchanges, at least some of them, to
start running Bitcoin Unlimited nodes, and an attacker went in and did this reorg,
ABC could be completely – as I understand it,

1762
02:07:48,555 --> 02:07:56,555
and someone could probably and probably will correct me on this, but as I understand
it, that would be a viable attack to basically remove ABC nodes from the network,

1763
02:07:56,555 --> 02:07:59,555
at least for a period of time until some change could be made.

1764
02:08:00,555 --> 02:08:07,555
So that is a security risk if, but only if, exchanges start running Bitcoin
Unlimited nodes.

1765
02:08:08,555 --> 02:08:11,555
Until that time, there's no economic incentive for anybody to do what was just
described.

1766
02:08:12,555 --> 02:08:13,555
It's technically possible.

1767
02:08:14,555 --> 02:08:22,555
I agree that the attack only works – you're protected against the attack if you're
online all the time and connected to many people, ideally everyone.

1768
02:08:23,555 --> 02:08:25,555
So then the attack will not work on you.

1769
02:08:26,555 --> 02:08:29,555
But as I said, people who are offline, the attack will work on them.

1770
02:08:30,555 --> 02:08:32,555
They'll wake up and they won't know which of the two actually came first.

1771
02:08:33,555 --> 02:08:34,555
They could ask the exchange.

1772
02:08:35,555 --> 02:08:43,555
I can imagine in my head, I put my little game theory hat, I can always say, what if
seven of the eight major exchanges, they all secretly meet and they say,

1773
02:08:44,555 --> 02:08:48,555
well, we're actually running this and we're going to switch over and we're going to
scam this one exchange out.

1774
02:08:49,555 --> 02:08:50,555
That would be very funny.

1775
02:08:50,555 --> 02:08:51,555
It could happen.

1776
02:08:52,555 --> 02:08:53,555
It could happen.

1777
02:08:54,555 --> 02:08:58,555
But as Satoshi says in the incentive section, Bitcoin is secured by economic
incentives.

1778
02:08:59,555 --> 02:09:04,555
There's a lot of technical attacks that can be done that haven't been done because
there's no economic incentive to do that.

1779
02:09:05,555 --> 02:09:06,555
There would be one in that one.

1780
02:09:07,555 --> 02:09:17,555
If you take some big N exchanges and N minus one, you could have a cut and they
could say, look, we're all going to pile on Kraken and destroy it.

1781
02:09:18,555 --> 02:09:25,555
And they could say, what we're going to do is we'll split the proceeds and we're
going to switch over which chain is valid.

1782
02:09:26,555 --> 02:09:29,555
After we dump everything on Kraken on the attacker chain, we're going to make that
one real.

1783
02:09:30,555 --> 02:09:32,555
And then Kraken will have to tell everyone, hey, we have the real ones.

1784
02:09:33,555 --> 02:09:35,555
Meanwhile, they can include every single in their attacker chain.

1785
02:09:36,555 --> 02:09:37,555
They can include every transaction that was in the original chain.

1786
02:09:38,555 --> 02:09:39,555
So regular users would be totally indifferent.

1787
02:09:40,555 --> 02:09:43,555
So that is a case where I think there might be.

1788
02:09:44,555 --> 02:09:46,555
And I believe I believe this is going to happen in the future.

1789
02:09:47,555 --> 02:09:48,555
Like 30 seconds.

1790
02:09:49,555 --> 02:09:51,555
So this is going to happen in the future of Bitcoin.

1791
02:09:52,555 --> 02:09:54,555
Exchanges are going to learn how to attack one another.

1792
02:09:55,555 --> 02:09:56,555
It's a given. Right.

1793
02:09:57,555 --> 02:10:01,555
If there's an opportunity as the economy grows, we're going to see all kinds of
these things.

1794
02:10:02,555 --> 02:10:11,555
And that's one of the things that makes Bitcoin so interesting is that this what
Paul is describing will happen in one form or another at some point in the future.

1795
02:10:11,555 --> 02:10:20,555
If Bitcoin gets big enough, of course, believe me, if GM could attack Chrysler, they
would do it.

1796
02:10:21,555 --> 02:10:22,555
You understand what I'm saying?

1797
02:10:23,555 --> 02:10:28,555
Like if Bank of America could attack HSBC, they would do it.

1798
02:10:29,555 --> 02:10:35,555
The questioner was trying to express a certain sentiment, I think.

1799
02:10:36,555 --> 02:10:37,555
And that was what they were trying to say.

1800
02:10:38,555 --> 02:10:41,555
Can this weird thing happen as a result?

1801
02:10:42,555 --> 02:10:44,555
Yes, there's a lot of things that can.

1802
02:10:45,555 --> 02:10:46,555
Satoshi says it right in the white paper.

1803
02:10:47,555 --> 02:10:49,555
A 51 percent attack can happen.

1804
02:10:50,555 --> 02:10:57,555
But this rolling 10 block checkpoint thing is not neither in the white paper nor in
any.

1805
02:10:58,555 --> 02:11:01,555
But it doesn't happen for the same reasons, which is economic incentives.

1806
02:11:02,555 --> 02:11:04,555
When the economic incentives are there, it will happen.

1807
02:11:04,555 --> 02:11:05,555
It just invented it.

1808
02:11:06,555 --> 02:11:12,555
Or hey, like as much as I hate Calvin Ayer, if I had the money, I'd put him out of
business ASAP.

1809
02:11:13,555 --> 02:11:14,555
We got Matt Aaron.

1810
02:11:15,555 --> 02:11:22,555
He said, debate the impact of the $50 BTC fees in December 2018.

1811
02:11:23,555 --> 02:11:25,555
I thought they meant 2017.

1812
02:11:26,555 --> 02:11:27,555
Probably means 2017.

1813
02:11:28,555 --> 02:11:34,555
But yeah, I think there's something interesting about that, which is that I'm not
sure that that will happen again.

1814
02:11:35,555 --> 02:11:36,555
I have a very different view from most people.

1815
02:11:37,555 --> 02:11:39,555
A lot of people think it's inevitable that that will happen again.

1816
02:11:40,555 --> 02:11:42,555
I agree with Paul. I agree with Paul on that.

1817
02:11:43,555 --> 02:11:48,555
I had a kind of different take on it, which is that this is like a time when the
Bitcoin price was just skyrocketing.

1818
02:11:49,555 --> 02:11:51,555
And everyone wanted in and they didn't understand exactly what was going on.

1819
02:11:52,555 --> 02:11:55,555
So they were just like, oh, the guy next to me is paying $48.

1820
02:11:55,555 --> 02:11:56,555
I'll pay $49.

1821
02:11:57,555 --> 02:12:07,555
And this is a kind of weird thing that I think only happened at this bizarre period
where people didn't know a lot about how the fees worked.

1822
02:12:08,555 --> 02:12:11,555
And so they just wanted in and thought they would make – FOMO was taken over.

1823
02:12:12,555 --> 02:12:15,555
They thought they'd be rich if they owned 0.001 Bitcoin.

1824
02:12:16,555 --> 02:12:18,555
And so they're just piling into this thing and willing to pay whatever it is.

1825
02:12:19,555 --> 02:12:33,555
As time went on, I think people kind of now understand that they have alternatives
for blockchain payment, which would include BCH, but it would also just include
everything, Litecoin, Ethereum, whatever.

1826
02:12:34,555 --> 02:12:36,555
So I think it's going to be very difficult.

1827
02:12:37,555 --> 02:12:43,555
But again, my view is very different than many BTC people, many core people.

1828
02:12:44,555 --> 02:12:48,555
But yeah, I kind of think that that would probably never happen again, but for a bad
reason.

1829
02:12:49,555 --> 02:12:55,555
Not because I always keep the price down or because – I just think it's because
people –

1830
02:12:56,555 --> 02:12:57,555
You'll never have that type of crazy again?

1831
02:12:58,555 --> 02:12:59,555
They're not willing to pay $50.

1832
02:13:00,555 --> 02:13:01,555
Why pay $50 when you don't have to?

1833
02:13:02,555 --> 02:13:04,555
Even if you're a super rich guy, you're like, why am I paying $50?

1834
02:13:05,555 --> 02:13:06,555
I could just do some other thing.

1835
02:13:07,555 --> 02:13:08,555
So for payments, it'll be tough.

1836
02:13:08,555 --> 02:13:13,555
You need another crazy moment where the price is just skyrocketing and everyone
wants in very quickly.

1837
02:13:14,555 --> 02:13:15,555
Vin, you got anything to add to that?

1838
02:13:16,555 --> 02:13:20,555
Yeah, I actually agree with Paul, and I have a little bit of a different take on it.

1839
02:13:21,555 --> 02:13:22,555
I agree with what he said.

1840
02:13:23,555 --> 02:13:24,555
I think that that's a factor.

1841
02:13:25,555 --> 02:13:37,555
I think that another factor that we saw was exchanges and other businesses that are
operating on BTC have done a lot of work since that time to optimize their
transactions.

1842
02:13:38,555 --> 02:13:44,555
Batching transactions, doing all – they were really taking – they were kind of being
slipshod about it.

1843
02:13:45,555 --> 02:13:50,555
And again, economic incentives, they were the ones getting hit with the fees for the
most part.

1844
02:13:51,555 --> 02:13:53,555
And then they were having to pass it on to their customers.

1845
02:13:54,555 --> 02:13:59,555
So they have an economic – the exchanges and the businesses that are operating on
BTC have a huge economic incentive.

1846
02:14:00,555 --> 02:14:04,555
Again, because low fees, you're incentivized to have low fees.

1847
02:14:04,555 --> 02:14:07,555
And so they have optimized their transactions.

1848
02:14:08,555 --> 02:14:09,555
And so I agree with Paul totally.

1849
02:14:10,555 --> 02:14:20,555
I think it's very unlikely because you also had a great reduction in just use of BTC
in merchant stuff.

1850
02:14:21,555 --> 02:14:24,555
And now the culture of BTC is you should not spend it.

1851
02:14:25,555 --> 02:14:29,555
You should either use Lightning or you should use Litecoin or whatever it is.

1852
02:14:30,555 --> 02:14:38,555
And so yeah, the people who want to use it as currency have already I think decided
that they're not going to use on-chain BTC.

1853
02:14:39,555 --> 02:14:41,555
And the exchanges have optimized.

1854
02:14:42,555 --> 02:14:43,555
So I totally agree with Paul.

1855
02:14:44,555 --> 02:14:47,555
We will not see low, low fees that are necessary, but we will never see those $50
fees again.

1856
02:14:48,555 --> 02:14:49,555
Awesome.

1857
02:14:50,555 --> 02:14:51,555
I heard a big essay.

1858
02:14:52,555 --> 02:14:55,555
Fees are too low for the hash rate security in the long run.

1859
02:14:55,555 --> 02:15:09,555
Everyone, of course, in BTC misinterpreted that as being a complaint about high fees
because they've been trained, Pavlovian trained, whenever they hear the bell about
fees to say about how Lightning will bring them down or something.

1860
02:15:10,555 --> 02:15:11,555
The whole essay was about how fees are too low.

1861
02:15:12,555 --> 02:15:15,555
Remarkably, like 80% of the people who read it.

1862
02:15:16,555 --> 02:15:19,555
So I just want to be respectful of you guys' time.

1863
02:15:20,555 --> 02:15:21,555
I know I promised you under two hours.

1864
02:15:22,555 --> 02:15:23,555
We're at two hours and 19 minutes.

1865
02:15:23,555 --> 02:15:24,555
I just want to get out and then we'll wrap this up for you guys.

1866
02:15:25,555 --> 02:15:30,555
Eric Moore, he said, OK, 22 megabyte limit might exist on BCH because of bad
algorithms.

1867
02:15:31,555 --> 02:15:37,555
Brody McFarland says, why is Drake on here debating in the shadows to Derek Moore?

1868
02:15:38,555 --> 02:15:40,555
Bitcoin is an adversarial mass surveillance system.

1869
02:15:41,555 --> 02:15:47,555
Matthew Erickson based specifically on what Vin is saying about why he builds on BCH
versus BTC.

1870
02:15:48,555 --> 02:15:49,555
Why does he build on BSV?

1871
02:15:50,555 --> 02:15:54,555
Derek Moore, the same economic arguments ensure that SV is safe.

1872
02:15:55,555 --> 02:15:58,555
You build on BSV, Vin?

1873
02:15:59,555 --> 02:16:00,555
I don't. I don't.

1874
02:16:01,555 --> 02:16:07,555
And the reason that I don't is because I think that the people who are the thought
leadership there make bad, make very poor decisions.

1875
02:16:07,555 --> 02:16:23,555
I don't think that they are considering the, they're actively making their network
unstable in search of blocks that are artificially big with transactions that
they've been creating themselves, bloating their blockchain.

1876
02:16:24,555 --> 02:16:35,555
And while I don't believe you should have full blocks, I also don't believe that you
should be filling your blocks up with that's in an unorganic way with transactions
that you have.

1877
02:16:35,555 --> 02:16:43,555
I think that that's irresponsible towards looking toward the future and where
you're, especially if you want everything to happen on a blockchain.

1878
02:16:44,555 --> 02:16:57,555
I think that absolutely, it's one thing to say, oh, big blocks may in the future,
bigger blocks may in the future, if we have the organic traffic, prevent some people
from running their own full node.

1879
02:16:57,555 --> 02:17:08,555
That's very different than saying, well, we're going to make sure that like next
year, no one who's an average Joe is going to be able to run their own full node.

1880
02:17:09,555 --> 02:17:16,555
I think that's a bad move, mainly for the same reason, because it cuts out
entrepreneurs who are just trying to bootstrap a business.

1881
02:17:16,555 --> 02:17:28,555
It makes it, they can't run their own nodes. So for the exact same reason,
supportive entrepreneurs that I don't build on BTC is the same reason that I don't
bet on BSV, same reason.

1882
02:17:29,555 --> 02:17:32,555
You got anything to add to that, Paul?

1883
02:17:32,555 --> 02:17:45,555
Yeah, they, BSV is really, they have, they endorsed this theory that Satoshi had
everything figured out and that it will all work itself out and you don't need to
worry about the node cost.

1884
02:17:46,555 --> 02:17:51,555
And to their credit, they're very consistent. They really, they go 100% on this
theory.

1885
02:17:52,555 --> 02:17:53,555
They do.

1886
02:17:54,555 --> 02:18:01,555
And we'll get to, we will all, I'm agreeing completely with Vin that we all benefit
by getting to see the results of this experiment.

1887
02:18:02,555 --> 02:18:03,555
Exactly.

1888
02:18:03,555 --> 02:18:08,555
It's going to be very strange. Hey, we can all benefit. I'm pessimistic, personally.

1889
02:18:09,555 --> 02:18:13,555
It seems to be, there are many crimes against truth in the, in Bitcoin SV.

1890
02:18:14,555 --> 02:18:24,555
They just constantly say all these things that make no sense about data being hosted
on the blockchain, conflating the precious full node data that everyone's
responsible for with throwaway timestamp data.

1891
02:18:24,555 --> 02:18:32,555
And to just think that just all these things they say are just, just, just crazy.

1892
02:18:33,555 --> 02:18:42,555
And it's why I'm glad that BSV exists. I'm glad they exist because one, they're
entertaining and two, they're a great example of what not to do.

1893
02:18:43,555 --> 02:18:51,555
And so like, I feel like you need to have that crazy uncle so that you know, like
who to not grow up and be like, right?

1894
02:18:51,555 --> 02:18:57,555
It's like, don't grow up and be like Uncle Joe. Do you want to be like Uncle Joe out
on the street? Keep filling up your blocks.

1895
02:18:58,555 --> 02:19:02,555
You're going to have a, you're going to have a syringe in your arm, laid out in the
park, just like Uncle Joe.

1896
02:19:03,555 --> 02:19:07,555
What you got to do is you got to maintain your block size. You got to, you got to
prune your nodes.

1897
02:19:08,555 --> 02:19:18,555
You got to do, you got to take care and don't just blow up with stress tests or
you're going to end up like Uncle Joe down there with the BSV tards with a needle in
his arm in the park.

1898
02:19:18,555 --> 02:19:21,555
Don't do it. That's, that's what, that's BSV to me.

1899
02:19:22,555 --> 02:19:30,555
I go back and forth. I honestly don't know if BSV is like a satire on Bitcoin Cash,
like I was saying before, or BTC. It's, they're both possible.

1900
02:19:31,555 --> 02:19:42,555
Like your BCH is like being leapfrogged and trolled by BSV. It's like, oh yeah, we,
you know, it's kind of like a Donald Trump type of thing where it's like all the
politicians lie.

1901
02:19:42,555 --> 02:19:49,555
Donald Trump shows up and he's like, I'm just going to say all kinds of racist stuff
and get away with it because why not?

1902
02:19:50,555 --> 02:20:02,555
And it's like, yeah, BCH is like, well, we want the blocks to be big. And then BSV
says, you know, I don't know if it's a satire of, or it could also be a satire of
BTC of just like, look how crazy they are.

1903
02:20:03,555 --> 02:20:06,555
They care so much about this. Let's just not care about it at all.

1904
02:20:07,555 --> 02:20:17,555
It's like they're trying to like pump up their cocks are so big that they're bigger
than everybody else. And then what happens later on is their cock busts and
explodes. And now you have no cock.

1905
02:20:18,555 --> 02:20:32,555
What I love about them, Paul, that's, that's, that I think, and I've said this
before, that if they're going to have success and they very well might actually,
like they very well may be the Donald Trump, right?

1906
02:20:33,555 --> 02:20:38,555
That everybody counts out, but what you're not, I think you probably less than me,
right?

1907
02:20:39,555 --> 02:20:43,555
We're not taking into consideration how really fucking stupid people are, right?

1908
02:20:44,555 --> 02:20:49,555
Like people are really fucking dumb and they really don't do any research and they
really don't care.

1909
02:20:50,555 --> 02:21:00,555
And the fact that BSV exists and are doing what they're doing and are speaking as
though they are, they know what the hell they're talking about, tells you that
people are fucking dumb.

1910
02:21:01,555 --> 02:21:05,555
And if I had to bet, are there more really stupid people or more really smart
people?

1911
02:21:06,555 --> 02:21:07,555
Very easy bet.

1912
02:21:08,555 --> 02:21:11,555
So BSV, don't count them out.

1913
02:21:12,555 --> 02:21:16,555
Great. CSW, he's got, no one can deny he has that X factor.

1914
02:21:17,555 --> 02:21:19,555
He's got that indescribable X factor.

1915
02:21:20,555 --> 02:21:25,555
He can somehow, he can convince these people that he's smart. He can convince people
that he's Satoshi.

1916
02:21:25,555 --> 02:21:28,555
I don't know how he's doing it. There's not a shred of evidence at all.

1917
02:21:29,555 --> 02:21:36,555
There's some caught copy and pasting things from 1993 Econometric Journal, like just
copy and pasting stuff, presenting his own work.

1918
02:21:37,555 --> 02:21:42,555
And he's just totally, but he's got that ability to just engage with people.

1919
02:21:44,555 --> 02:21:45,555
Well, that's his thing. He doesn't.

1920
02:21:46,555 --> 02:21:47,555
How is he doing that? I don't know.

1921
02:21:48,555 --> 02:21:49,555
He's not engaging people. That's the thing.

1922
02:21:50,555 --> 02:21:55,555
Yeah, I agree. There are many people where he's kind of aiming.

1923
02:21:56,555 --> 02:22:05,555
He's playing the whole liberal CNN thing where you go to the interviews where you
get the softball questions and the interviewer kind of helps you out.

1924
02:22:06,555 --> 02:22:09,555
It's why my interview with him on MetaNet TV disappeared last week.

1925
02:22:10,555 --> 02:22:13,555
What happened to that?

1926
02:22:13,555 --> 02:22:19,555
Oh yeah, it was me, him and Kurt. And we had an interview and where is it right now?

1927
02:22:20,555 --> 02:22:25,555
Me and Kurt, we had two and a half hours of great content.

1928
02:22:26,555 --> 02:22:27,555
Two and a half hours long?

1929
02:22:28,555 --> 02:22:29,555
Two and a half hours.

1930
02:22:30,555 --> 02:22:33,555
I would have expected you to say like after 10 minutes, he just angrily walked out.

1931
02:22:34,555 --> 02:22:35,555
He did. He left.

1932
02:22:36,555 --> 02:22:38,555
CSW left in 10 minutes.

1933
02:22:38,555 --> 02:22:50,555
That's predictable because his meme, his story relies on a narrative where he is
like the underdog and not taken seriously because he's a victim of prejudice.

1934
02:22:51,555 --> 02:22:54,555
He's oppressed. That's why. See, because he must be vague.

1935
02:22:55,555 --> 02:22:59,555
Since he really doesn't really know anything about what we're talking about, he
cannot ever be clear.

1936
02:23:00,555 --> 02:23:03,555
Because as one of my favorite people ever, Robin Hanson, put it so well.

1937
02:23:04,555 --> 02:23:07,555
He said, the problem with being clear is sometimes you're clearly wrong.

1938
02:23:08,555 --> 02:23:15,555
So often it's better for people to just be vague and then no one will ever nail down
how clueless you are.

1939
02:23:16,555 --> 02:23:20,555
And so Craig has to find a way to just not answer the questions.

1940
02:23:21,555 --> 02:23:29,555
And I didn't even come at him with the Peter McCormick thing. I didn't talk about
fake Toshi. I didn't say any of that.

1941
02:23:30,555 --> 02:23:34,555
Exactly, you didn't fall for his trap. He was laying that trap for you.

1942
02:23:35,555 --> 02:23:45,555
Can I note something that's happening right now that speaks to why, whatever it is,
we're sitting here talking about Craig Wright.

1943
02:23:46,555 --> 02:23:47,555
I know, exactly. He's got the X Factor.

1944
02:23:48,555 --> 02:23:50,555
He's got it. He's got it.

1945
02:23:51,555 --> 02:23:56,555
How is he convincing these people that he is Satoshi? He is some kind of a genius
somehow.

1946
02:23:56,555 --> 02:24:03,555
I don't know. He's got some kind of savant skill that I can't barely even fully
appreciate it.

1947
02:24:04,555 --> 02:24:05,555
He's got that X Factor. He absolutely does.

1948
02:24:06,555 --> 02:24:09,555
And so Bitcoin takes a little bit of that too, right?

1949
02:24:10,555 --> 02:24:13,555
Because as Daniel Kravitz likes to say, it's an imaginary good.

1950
02:24:14,555 --> 02:24:23,555
So it's going to require imagination and people who can speak to imagination and
desires and fantasies.

1951
02:24:23,555 --> 02:24:28,555
It's going to require that, just like any good cult, just like any good religion.

1952
02:24:29,555 --> 02:24:32,555
And don't count the cults out, you know what I'm saying?

1953
02:24:33,555 --> 02:24:36,555
Don't count out the power of a cult that turns itself into a religion.

1954
02:24:37,555 --> 02:24:45,555
You go from a crazy dude having a vision in a cave in Arabia to breaking down the
walls of Byzantium, you know what I mean?

1955
02:24:46,555 --> 02:24:47,555
The cults have a disadvantage.

1956
02:24:47,555 --> 02:24:50,555
They are more cohesive and insular within their group.

1957
02:24:51,555 --> 02:24:54,555
And when they attract people, they are very coordinated and they're a good team
player.

1958
02:24:55,555 --> 02:25:07,555
But it's a requirement that they are less creative because they fear criticism of
their ideas and interaction with reality because reality doesn't agree with them.

1959
02:25:08,555 --> 02:25:18,555
So they cannot be as creative or really even as engaged or as open as normal
rational people can be.

1960
02:25:19,555 --> 02:25:20,555
The normal rational person can improve.

1961
02:25:21,555 --> 02:25:25,555
The cult is almost always locked in stasis and it has to maintain that stasis.

1962
02:25:26,555 --> 02:25:30,555
It's very expensive. You have to do all this weird purging and stuff.

1963
02:25:31,555 --> 02:25:37,555
So that's why it's important that we have these three Bitcoin cults.

1964
02:25:38,555 --> 02:25:41,555
BTC, BCH, BSV because each in our own way.

1965
02:25:42,555 --> 02:25:43,555
You just described…

1966
02:25:44,555 --> 02:25:48,555
There are cults. There's definitely a BTC cult. It's very disappointing.

1967
02:25:49,555 --> 02:25:51,555
There's definitely a BSV cult.

1968
02:25:52,555 --> 02:25:55,555
I think if you're going to have a faith-based movement, you better have a cult.

1969
02:25:56,555 --> 02:25:59,555
And if money isn't faith-based, I don't know what the hell it is.

1970
02:26:00,555 --> 02:26:04,555
So it's a faith-based movement for the age of money.

1971
02:26:05,555 --> 02:26:06,555
We're getting some cults to start out.

1972
02:26:07,555 --> 02:26:17,555
There's a sense in which if you back the conservative BTC position of we should
never hard fork or change anything, then the cult doesn't do as much damage because
the stasis is kind of what you already signed up for.

1973
02:26:18,555 --> 02:26:21,555
And I do think that some people are doing it kind of as a joke.

1974
02:26:22,555 --> 02:26:36,555
A lot of the Michael Goldstein stuff is almost kind of like, look, this is how dumb
the Bitcoin community could be and yet it still is much more successful than your
company or something.

1975
02:26:37,555 --> 02:26:47,555
And it's kind of like a taunt. It's kind of a clever sort of, I don't know,
performance.

1976
02:26:48,555 --> 02:26:51,555
All right, so we're about to fade, Hotep. How many of these do you have? I'm
starting to fade.

1977
02:26:52,555 --> 02:26:58,555
So we're about to put the closing comments in, read these last Super Chats, and then
we're going to do the closing comments.

1978
02:26:59,555 --> 02:27:00,555
I got somebody at my door. Go ahead.

1979
02:27:01,555 --> 02:27:02,555
All right, let's see.

1980
02:27:03,555 --> 02:27:07,555
Derek Moy says, SV has the most autism, so big A-holes in best tech.

1981
02:27:08,555 --> 02:27:10,555
There are 20 people alive that understand Bitcoin.

1982
02:27:11,555 --> 02:27:15,555
Libertards and Voluntards are bringing down Bitcoin.

1983
02:27:15,555 --> 02:27:21,555
Josiah says, so we are never going to get to see that CSW Kurt discussion?

1984
02:27:22,555 --> 02:27:30,555
Yeah, MetaNet TV, I don't know, it's vanished into history after they sat here on my
channel telling me that they don't believe in censorship and the blockchain is
forever.

1985
02:27:31,555 --> 02:27:40,555
But somehow Hotep Jesus' conversation has gone into the oblivion because I'd love to
hear two and a half hours of Hotep Jesus and Kurt.

1986
02:27:41,555 --> 02:27:43,555
Is there no local copy? I don't know what's going on.

1987
02:27:43,555 --> 02:27:46,555
Holla at MetaNet TV, those communists, and see what's going on.

1988
02:27:47,555 --> 02:27:52,555
Derek Moore, Scientology's Ideal Org just opened a lot of buildings.

1989
02:27:53,555 --> 02:27:56,555
So, yeah, let's go into closing comments.

1990
02:27:57,555 --> 02:27:59,555
We're going to start with Vin and then close out with Paul.

1991
02:28:00,555 --> 02:28:09,555
I mean, I don't, I am not one to, we're making bets here.

1992
02:28:09,555 --> 02:28:13,555
We're making predictions on the future and we're going to invest our time.

1993
02:28:14,555 --> 02:28:22,555
We're going to invest our energy and we're betting on where that time and energy
should be, just like everybody does every single day.

1994
02:28:23,555 --> 02:28:27,555
And I do believe that the fork is a beautiful thing.

1995
02:28:28,555 --> 02:28:29,555
I believe in the free market.

1996
02:28:30,555 --> 02:28:36,555
I believe that people should have the opportunity to finally be able to choose their
financial system.

1997
02:28:36,555 --> 02:28:49,555
And right now we have three that are as viable as they can be with the little bit of
actual economic use that is taking place as versus the traditional financial system.

1998
02:28:50,555 --> 02:28:54,555
And so now is the time for people to be actually using them.

1999
02:28:55,555 --> 02:29:04,555
And there's nothing to say that someone can't use all of them, but it's very
difficult to build a business on, you're going to have to focus, especially as a
startup.

2000
02:29:04,555 --> 02:29:08,555
You're going to have to decide what your product is and what network you're on.

2001
02:29:09,555 --> 02:29:20,555
For me, actually having done this now for years, having built on multiple networks,
having experienced the communities in these various different networks, having been
through two splits now.

2002
02:29:21,555 --> 02:29:30,555
I have to say that I think that the chain that is making the right moves for the
future is BCH.

2003
02:29:31,555 --> 02:29:32,555
Do I think BTC should cease to exist?

2004
02:29:32,555 --> 02:29:33,555
No.

2005
02:29:34,555 --> 02:29:40,555
Do I think that there are not some valid criticisms and claims that are being made
by BTC?

2006
02:29:41,555 --> 02:29:42,555
Absolutely not.

2007
02:29:42,555 --> 02:29:44,555
I think that there are some very valid criticisms and claims.

2008
02:29:45,555 --> 02:29:51,555
And I think that the people who want to live with that should have every opportunity
to do so and to work on BTC.

2009
02:29:52,555 --> 02:29:55,555
And yeah, I mean, I don't think it'll go away.

2010
02:29:56,555 --> 02:29:58,555
I don't think any of these chains are going away anytime soon.

2011
02:29:59,156 --> 02:30:03,156
And I think that by the time that we got anything approaching hyper-Bitcoinization,
I think I probably won't be alive.

2012
02:30:03,156 --> 02:30:14,156
So for right now, I'm just building in the place that generates the most profit and
the community that I feel the most aligned with and the most affinity toward.

2013
02:30:14,156 --> 02:30:17,156
And that's BCH right now.

2014
02:30:17,156 --> 02:30:21,156
Awesome. Paul, let's hear it.

2015
02:30:22,156 --> 02:30:32,156
Okay. Well, I mean, I had a great time. So thanks, Vin. Thanks, Hotep. I mean, it
was a lot of fun. It wasn't, you know, I don't know.

2016
02:30:32,156 --> 02:30:38,156
It wasn't really a blood sport. I liked it a lot. I did think, you know, it's
definitely true.

2017
02:30:38,156 --> 02:30:46,156
I mean, I think we agree that layer one fees are lower on BCH and that I can see
that it's more attractive to an entrepreneur today.

2018
02:30:46,156 --> 02:31:01,156
But that doesn't necessarily lead to something. Just having lower layer one fees
doesn't necessarily mean, in my opinion, that it's automatically the best blockchain
network or the best money or most likely to ultimately triumph.

2019
02:31:01,156 --> 02:31:13,156
Or in BCH's case, come from, you know, where I see it isn't behind and then catch up
and overtake BTC in terms of popularity.

2020
02:31:13,156 --> 02:31:19,156
I like that we agreed that the larger blocks do have costs and that it's not
completely neutral.

2021
02:31:19,156 --> 02:31:33,156
If the blocks get large enough, the network will die. And even if they only get a
little bit larger, they are cluttering up your hard drive or cluttering up your
apartment with stuff that otherwise you wouldn't be burdened with.

2022
02:31:33,156 --> 02:31:36,156
And so there is a cost to larger blocks.

2023
02:31:37,156 --> 02:31:49,156
And so I wish we could have talked a little bit more about the culture because that
is a weird, interesting area of like there is definitely a lot to say about that.

2024
02:31:49,156 --> 02:31:56,156
But the concluding remarks isn't really a good time to say it. But I think it is an
interesting question.

2025
02:31:56,156 --> 02:32:04,156
You know, briefly, my take on it, though, is that it's much easier to be welcoming
and to make all these compromises and changes when you are the underdog.

2026
02:32:04,156 --> 02:32:08,156
And then I really think I tried to make this point in my opening statement as well.

2027
02:32:08,156 --> 02:32:20,156
Once the underdog goes into first place, they're going to think that they deserved
this all along and they're going to be the king and everyone should have to, you
know, kiss the ring and do whatever they say.

2028
02:32:20,156 --> 02:32:24,156
And then they'll become just as toxic as BTC is now.

2029
02:32:24,156 --> 02:32:29,156
And I do think this isn't just an inevitable part of the network succeeding and
growing.

2030
02:32:30,156 --> 02:32:36,156
We'll still be nice to you, Paul, just so you know. When we take over, we'll still
be nice to you.

2031
02:32:36,156 --> 02:32:37,156
Good. Thanks.

2032
02:32:37,156 --> 02:32:39,156
Save me a spot, too.

2033
02:32:39,156 --> 02:32:42,156
And you, Hotep.

2034
02:32:42,156 --> 02:32:48,156
Save me a spot because I'm over here like, you know what, I'm just going to, I'm
leveraging my bets.

2035
02:32:49,156 --> 02:32:59,156
Just one last thing. I mean, I do think a lot of, you know, a lot of what Vin was
saying was just, you know, this is what I think is good for my business right now.

2036
02:32:59,156 --> 02:33:08,156
You know, I agree. But is that the whole scope of our BTC versus BCH analysis?

2037
02:33:08,156 --> 02:33:16,156
I would hope not. And I do hope that, you know, I hope that anyone who's listening
gets a better idea of what's going on here, the larger blocks.

2038
02:33:16,156 --> 02:33:20,156
The risk that they add might be small, but it's real.

2039
02:33:20,156 --> 02:33:28,156
And you can see why people complain about why you can't just add more risk to this
thing that I bought back when it wasn't like that.

2040
02:33:28,156 --> 02:33:33,156
And a lot of people buy BTC when the block size was one megabyte.

2041
02:33:33,156 --> 02:33:38,156
Satoshi put that block size limit in himself and he didn't remove it before he left.

2042
02:33:38,156 --> 02:33:42,156
That was the status quo. And so that's what a lot of people own.

2043
02:33:42,156 --> 02:33:47,156
That's why they don't like hard forking to a larger block size, the BCH hard fork.

2044
02:33:47,156 --> 02:33:54,156
I don't see it fulfilling the requirements of this collective action problem that I
mentioned at the very beginning.

2045
02:33:54,156 --> 02:33:59,156
It's like it's a very difficult project to beat the status quo. You have to be
better.

2046
02:33:59,156 --> 02:34:04,156
The two hurdles were you have to be better and everyone has to agree that you're
better at like the same time.

2047
02:34:04,156 --> 02:34:10,156
You have to switch over. I don't know. It seems like it's been a long time and that
hasn't happened.

2048
02:34:10,156 --> 02:34:15,156
So my pessimism on BCH has been steadily increasing.

2049
02:34:15,156 --> 02:34:21,156
I've become more pessimistic over time. So that's that's the closing statement.

2050
02:34:21,156 --> 02:34:29,156
Awesome. Great talk, gentlemen. This is I think this is up there with last week's
man.

2051
02:34:29,156 --> 02:34:34,156
You know, last week was epic. Yeah. Last week was a real good one.

2052
02:34:34,156 --> 02:34:37,156
I think this is right up there with it. You know, great conversation.

2053
02:34:37,156 --> 02:34:40,156
Great conversation. I appreciate you both coming on, man. Really, really do.

2054
02:34:40,156 --> 02:34:45,156
Especially last minute, Vin. It was it was a pleasure.

2055
02:34:45,156 --> 02:34:51,156
And thank you, Paul. It was it was great. I'm glad that it was you sitting on the
other side.

2056
02:34:51,156 --> 02:34:55,156
I was glad to be here. I had a great time talking to you. I did. It's funny.

2057
02:34:55,156 --> 02:34:59,156
And for this Steve Patterson, I did watch that whole like three and a half hour
thing.

2058
02:34:59,156 --> 02:35:07,156
I was listening to it. I was like, oh, this guy. And then it was like, oh, sub that
guy out.

2059
02:35:07,156 --> 02:35:12,156
OK. I was like, sure, whatever.

2060
02:35:12,156 --> 02:35:20,156
Well, I was I was listening to it and then I checked Twitter and then it was like 50
notifications about all about this guy.

2061
02:35:21,156 --> 02:35:25,156
I was like, oh, expectations are really high.

2062
02:35:25,156 --> 02:35:31,156
I was like, oh, it was. I was like looking him up and listening because he really
has that.

2063
02:35:31,156 --> 02:35:41,156
He doesn't have that much and BTC on YouTube. He's just the one four square thing he
did with BCHBSV.

2064
02:35:41,156 --> 02:35:45,156
Anyway, it's been a lot of fun. Thank you.

2065
02:35:45,156 --> 02:35:50,156
Thank you for being my professors today. I'm going to go back to the footage, run my
notes again.

2066
02:35:50,156 --> 02:35:54,156
As you see, I'm getting a little bit smarter every debate.

2067
02:35:54,156 --> 02:36:00,156
So next year I'm going to be back to whip all your asses in the debate.

2068
02:36:00,156 --> 02:36:03,156
But once again, thank you for watching. Sponsored by Coinbase.

2069
02:36:03,156 --> 02:36:07,156
That we got haters that hit the dislike button. Please hit the like button.

2070
02:36:07,156 --> 02:36:10,156
They hit the dislike button before the stream even went live.

2071
02:36:11,156 --> 02:36:15,156
That's to be a type of cult like thing.

2072
02:36:15,156 --> 02:36:20,156
You know, it's just extreme loyalty to the position. No open mindedness to new
ideas.

2073
02:36:20,156 --> 02:36:23,156
So that will lead to creativity problems eventually.

2074
02:36:23,156 --> 02:36:28,156
Yeah. So hit that like button, hit the subscribe. I'll be back next week. I'm trying
to have something special for next week.

2075
02:36:28,156 --> 02:36:31,156
I might do some playoffs because I know your personalities now.

2076
02:36:31,156 --> 02:36:36,156
So I might bring you back and match you guys up based upon personalities and make
this thing even more spicy.

2077
02:36:37,156 --> 02:36:41,156
So everybody stay tuned for more Bitcoin Bloodsport.

2078
02:36:41,156 --> 02:36:44,156
Six like total chaos conversation.

2079
02:36:44,156 --> 02:36:48,156
Yeah, that's great. I talk to you.

2080
02:36:51,156 --> 02:36:52,156
And we're off.