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Hello, DriveChainers, and welcome to today's Drivechain Twitter Spaces.

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I'm Henry of LayerTwo Labs.

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In our last Drivechain Twitter Spaces, we went on for six hours,

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and it was quite an epic Drivechain Twitter Spaces.

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Today, we're aiming to have a short one.

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We'll just go for one hour.

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I thought it might be nice to read an essay I recently posted on Substack

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called Why I Support Drivechain for Bitcoin,

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the Crypto Economic Potential of Peer-to-Peer Sidechains.

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Here we go. Here's the overview section.

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All Bitcoin sidechain pegs at present are federated by necessity.

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Drivechain would change that by introducing advanced Bitcoin sidechains

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called Drivechains that feature a peer-to-peer peg

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From a social perspective,

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Drivechains may become Bitcoin's exciting final frontier

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for innovation, creativity, and technological inclusiveness,

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ensuring that Bitcoin development never stops growing

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to serve humanity's manifold demands with respect to blockchain technology.

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In economic terms, the introduction of Drivechains

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may lead to substantially higher value accrual

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to Bitcoin and its block space,

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which in turn would help maintain Bitcoin's status

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as the cryptocurrency offering unsurpassed network effect

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and economic security.

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Drivechain may increase Bitcoin dominance.

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Drivechains by design would serve as partitioned environments

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on Bitcoin for innovative technologies

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such as large blocks, peer-to-peer oracles,

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strong fungibility, greater Turing completeness,

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and other software.

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The availability of Drivechains could induce a migration

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of developers and users to Bitcoin,

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catalyzing substantial value accrual to Bitcoin

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and expanding its network effect.

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Moreover, the availability of Drivechains

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would deprive altcoin founders and promoters of the rationale

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that it's hard or impossible to build on Bitcoin.

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Drivechain may increase Bitcoin miner revenue.

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Bitcoin in its current form arguably features

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a problematic trend of low total transaction fee rate.

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As a result, criticism of the long-term fee-reliant

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economic security model of Bitcoin in its current form

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is not entirely without merit.

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However, if Drivechain adoption induces growth

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of the trajectory of Bitcoin miner revenue

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by fostering substantially higher transaction fees

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from merged mind sidechains,

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such criticism may become wholly untenable.

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Well, that's the essay.

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I'm finished reading it.

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You can find it at my substack, henrymagrum.substack.com.

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It's available for free.

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I wrote it to summarize my personal view on Drivechain,

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why I'm incredibly excited about it,

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why I think it's going to have a transformative impact

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in my expectation on Bitcoin

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in terms of accelerating Bitcoinization

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by increasing Bitcoin dominance, increasing Bitcoin value,

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increasing Bitcoin miner revenue, which increases network security.

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It's going to, I think, draw altcoin developers and users to Bitcoin

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because the altcoin software can be copied

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into a Bitcoin sidechain and the peg in, peg out mechanism

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would be miner controlled instead of federated.

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So what Drivechain does, it can be described different ways.

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One way of describing it is it makes Bitcoin sidechains better

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because it enables Bitcoin sidechains to feature

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a miner controlled peg rather than a federated peg.

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Right now, all Bitcoin sidechains use a federated peg.

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Or I should say more precisely,

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the Bitcoin sidechains that have a two-way peg for Bitcoin

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will necessarily at this time feature a federated peg.

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So understanding what Drivechain is all about

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requires understanding the difference between a federated peg

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and a miner controlled peg.

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So these are some of the crypto-economic features of sidechains

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that aren't present in other parts of economics.

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So this is a novel area.

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What Drivechain does is a crypto-economic innovation for Bitcoin

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that increases Bitcoin's extensibility.

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It increases Bitcoin's potential value accrual.

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And also, it strengthens the options available

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to arrange for merged mining of Bitcoin sidechains

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by making people to use binary merged mining

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instead of ordinary merged mining.

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So there's a bunch of interesting features

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that Drivechain brings to Bitcoin.

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And I think that if it had been adopted years ago,

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we would see perhaps billions of dollars

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in Bitcoin sidechains today,

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increasing Bitcoin's network effect and value.

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But instead, that multitudinous sort of multi-layered design

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has been present in Ethereum increasingly.

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However, I think there's an opportunity for Bitcoin

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to adopt this upgrade at this time

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and begin to leverage Bitcoin's unparalleled network effect

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to its advantage by platforming these softwares on sidechains

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that will attract users.

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For example, privacy sidechains, big block sidechains,

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and smart contracting sidechains

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could all be very successful on Bitcoin

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instead of those softwares being used as altcoins,

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where the value accrual and monetary premium of the altcoin

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is in competition with Bitcoin

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rather than part of Bitcoin's value.

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So in the Drivechain design,

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these softwares would be used by Bitcoiners

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in a Bitcoin sidechain context

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rather than Bitcoiners who want to use those softwares

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resorting to using altcoins instead

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or just not using those softwares at all.

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So the softwares I'm talking about

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include things like ring signatures on privacy altcoins

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for confidentiality and fungibility,

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as well as big blocks on the big block altcoins,

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like Bitcoin Cash or others.

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And then there's other technologies

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like peer-to-peer oracle networks,

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something that Augur and Chainlink and others

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are trying to develop,

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but I think that they could instead exist on Bitcoin in a sidechain.

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And there's even a detailed proposal for that called HiveMind,

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which the Drivechain co-author Paul Sztorc has designed

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and is looking forward to launching as a Bitcoin sidechain

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once Drivechain is enacted in the future.

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If anyone listening would like to come up and ask a question,

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they're free to.

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They can just raise their hand.

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We have a few people in the audience

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who might want to come up,

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so you're welcome to do that.

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I'll continue with my reading of my essay though

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until someone does.

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The last part of the essay is a list of useful links.

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We've got the drivechain.info website

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so that's drivechain.info.

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That is the website of the Drivechain project.

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There's lots of resources there,

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including the Drivechain Bitcoin node software

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you can download,

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which is a testnet.

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And there's a great write-up on Drivechain by Fiatjaf,

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the inventor of Nostr,

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who is an emphatic supporter of Drivechain.

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His write-up on Drivechain is at his website,

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fiatjaf.com.

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That's f-i-a-t-j-a-f.com

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forward slash drivechain.html.

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A great essay recently written by SuperTestNet,

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a developer focused on Lightning and Nostr and other things,

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is available and you can find a link to that on my sub stack.

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All right, Maverick.

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I will let you up to ask your question or comment.

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Welcome to the stage, sir.

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How's it going?

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How's your Thursday going?

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Hola, can you hear me?

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I can.

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Hi, welcome.

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Nice to e-meet you.

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I guess my question is,

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I've been pretty convinced for a while.

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I'm non-technical but

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for the need for something

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like Drivechain.

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Could you describe,

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I guess, who or what are the main,

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I guess, political or technical blockers to getting the appropriate BIP

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passed?

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If those are clear or maybe they're unclear or they're obscure,

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can you get a little more insight into who or what

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and maybe a timeline on

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what you guys would like to see

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in terms of movement on that BIP

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being included in

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some type of soft fork or upgrade to Bitcoin?

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Maverick, that's an awesome question.

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I wonder many of those same things myself.

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The

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answer is

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I just, I muted your mic while I'm answering just because there was some background noise.

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But feel free to come off mic and jump back in if you'd like.

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So you asked a bunch of cool questions like what are the blockers?

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What is the political

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reality right now with respect to Drivechain?

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You know, political in the sense of like what's going on in the Bitcoin community in terms of Drivechain

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interest

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and energy and excitement

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and support.

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And then what's the timeline that we're looking at?

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And what would the process look like for it's, you know, becoming part of Bitcoin

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the way that in 2017 SegWit

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became part of Bitcoin

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and in 2021

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Taproot became part of Bitcoin.

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Both of those

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soft fork upgrades to Bitcoin took

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a significant amount of time in terms of months

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of deliberation and fine-tuning.

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So

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with Drivechain, I think

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we're looking potentially at

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months or years,

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but things could evolve

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in a surprising and interesting way.

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It really depends on

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the level of interest within the community

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in terms of, you know, people giving

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support for it and devoting energy to

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making it totally ready for implementation

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and merge

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in terms of the code.

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So

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there is work to be done.

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People can get involved

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and contribute

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the ways to

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figure out, you know, how to get more involved.

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If it's something that really excites you a lot, like for me,

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it's

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the first Avenue is like to engage in the Twitter

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in the Telegram group, the Drivechain Talk Telegram group.

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And

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and that's where the Drivechain leaders and thinkers

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and fans hang out, share ideas.

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And then there's also LayerTwo Labs, which I work for.

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And

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you know, we're hosting these spaces.

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So it's awesome that you're here since you're curious and interested in the topic.

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And then I would say as a point of optimism,

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and then I would say as a point of optimism, Maverick,

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just in response to your great question

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about the timeline and the political

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situation,

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I would say that we have a lot of energy right now.

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For example, at last year,

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one significant Drivechain supporter, Adam Back of Blockstream,

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you know, their excellent co-founder and CEO

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appeared twice on stage

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to talk about sidechains and Drivechains and related topics

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with Paul Sztorc,

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the Drivechain Bips co-author.

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So he's interested in this topic.

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Blockstream likes sidechains.

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They have Liquid.

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So they're interested in the topic of sidechains generally,

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which Drivechain is part of that topic.

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And

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I feel like other

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well-known thinkers,

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I don't want to say leaders because, you know, Bitcoin is leaderless in a sense,

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but other well-known thinkers

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are interested in Drivechain, some of them.

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So

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I recently made a list, in fact,

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of like all of the most well-known people

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and I made a list.

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There's 50 people in that list.

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Many of them recognize names in Bitcoin,

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including people like Peter McCormick, Guy Swan,

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Nick Carter, Eric Wall, all kinds of people who are Bitcoin maxis or

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kind of they have one foot in Bitcoin, one foot in crypto.

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There's even some altcoiners who like Drivechain.

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I mean, part of what Drivechain is all about

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is unifying the entire crypto community onto Bitcoin.

265
00:13:52,815 --> 00:13:55,714
So it's all about bringing all of the altcoiners

266
00:13:56,315 --> 00:13:58,315
into Bitcoin to make Bitcoin's value

267
00:13:58,815 --> 00:14:01,315
much higher and Bitcoin's user base much higher,

268
00:14:01,315 --> 00:14:02,815
Bitcoin's miner security,

269
00:14:03,214 --> 00:14:05,414
fee transaction like revenue much higher.

270
00:14:05,414 --> 00:14:06,015
So it's

271
00:14:06,515 --> 00:14:10,015
it's about making Bitcoin like the one-stop shop for everything in crypto,

272
00:14:10,414 --> 00:14:10,914
you know,

273
00:14:11,214 --> 00:14:13,115
all the good, all the bad, everything,

274
00:14:13,214 --> 00:14:14,515
bringing it all to Bitcoin.

275
00:14:14,515 --> 00:14:15,714
So Bitcoin is the,

276
00:14:16,015 --> 00:14:17,015
has no competition.

277
00:14:17,214 --> 00:14:18,214
Bitcoin is like the,

278
00:14:18,315 --> 00:14:19,515
is like the crypto

279
00:14:20,015 --> 00:14:20,714
that's dominant.

280
00:14:20,714 --> 00:14:22,914
And that's what hyper-Bitcoinization would be about.

281
00:14:22,914 --> 00:14:24,115
There'd be no competition,

282
00:14:24,315 --> 00:14:25,214
even from fiat.

283
00:14:25,214 --> 00:14:26,815
It would be like the only thing in town

284
00:14:27,214 --> 00:14:29,414
and its value would be astronomical.

285
00:14:29,414 --> 00:14:29,714
So

286
00:14:30,214 --> 00:14:33,115
Drivechain's a part of that future story that could play out

287
00:14:33,515 --> 00:14:35,815
and there are notable supporters.

288
00:14:35,914 --> 00:14:39,515
So if you go to drivechain.info forward slash friends,

289
00:14:40,015 --> 00:14:42,214
then you see the list that I made

290
00:14:42,714 --> 00:14:46,115
which has these supporters and all of the support that I've shown is like

291
00:14:46,115 --> 00:14:46,815
they're quotes.

292
00:14:47,214 --> 00:14:50,315
Of support from tweets and I provide the link so you can see

293
00:14:50,815 --> 00:14:53,714
the full context for each statement to make sure you understand,

294
00:14:53,714 --> 00:14:53,815
you know,

295
00:14:53,815 --> 00:14:54,914
it's not taken out of context.

296
00:14:54,914 --> 00:14:55,815
I give the quote

297
00:14:56,115 --> 00:14:57,815
with the source so everyone can read

298
00:14:58,315 --> 00:15:00,714
all of the context for each statement.

299
00:15:01,815 --> 00:15:03,214
But yeah, I would say Maverick,

300
00:15:03,214 --> 00:15:05,414
like it's hard to know when exactly things will happen.

301
00:15:05,414 --> 00:15:06,515
It's kind of like asking,

302
00:15:06,914 --> 00:15:07,414
you know,

303
00:15:07,414 --> 00:15:10,714
in the years before like marriage equality happened or

304
00:15:11,315 --> 00:15:11,714
you know,

305
00:15:12,315 --> 00:15:14,615
marijuana legalization happens in a state

306
00:15:14,815 --> 00:15:15,914
or at the federal level.

307
00:15:15,914 --> 00:15:16,414
It's like

308
00:15:16,515 --> 00:15:18,714
it's hard to pinpoint when the one that will happen.

309
00:15:18,714 --> 00:15:19,714
Like let's take for example,

310
00:15:19,714 --> 00:15:20,914
marijuana legalization,

311
00:15:21,315 --> 00:15:21,615
you know,

312
00:15:21,615 --> 00:15:23,414
millions of Americans support that.

313
00:15:23,615 --> 00:15:24,315
Right now,

314
00:15:24,315 --> 00:15:25,515
I think 27

315
00:15:26,015 --> 00:15:26,615
states.

316
00:15:26,615 --> 00:15:30,914
So a majority of US states have legalized it at the state level

317
00:15:31,315 --> 00:15:32,414
at some degree,

318
00:15:32,414 --> 00:15:34,714
either a ticketable offense or totally legal,

319
00:15:35,015 --> 00:15:35,214
you know,

320
00:15:35,214 --> 00:15:37,115
in certain quantities and but yeah,

321
00:15:37,115 --> 00:15:38,815
and yet we see at the federal level

322
00:15:39,214 --> 00:15:42,315
after decades of advocacy for the

323
00:15:42,515 --> 00:15:44,315
this for the decriminalization

324
00:15:44,615 --> 00:15:45,414
of THC.

325
00:15:45,615 --> 00:15:47,214
We still see at the federal level

326
00:15:47,515 --> 00:15:51,015
criminalization on the books with the Drug Act from decades ago.

327
00:15:51,414 --> 00:15:54,214
So at some point in the next couple of years,

328
00:15:54,615 --> 00:15:57,315
perhaps during a second Biden administration or whatever,

329
00:15:57,615 --> 00:15:58,414
there could be

330
00:15:58,714 --> 00:15:59,414
finally,

331
00:15:59,414 --> 00:15:59,714
you know,

332
00:15:59,714 --> 00:16:00,714
this change

333
00:16:01,115 --> 00:16:03,195
at the political level at the federal level and I think

334
00:16:03,214 --> 00:16:05,015
drivechains kind of similar

335
00:16:05,315 --> 00:16:07,815
where it's something many Bitcoiners want

336
00:16:08,015 --> 00:16:09,214
but it requires

337
00:16:09,414 --> 00:16:11,115
sufficient political will

338
00:16:11,615 --> 00:16:14,094
to percolate through the community so that there's many

339
00:16:14,094 --> 00:16:15,495
many more people like you

340
00:16:15,695 --> 00:16:17,395
people who know what drivechain is

341
00:16:17,594 --> 00:16:18,794
who are interested in it

342
00:16:19,094 --> 00:16:22,094
who have a notion of what it's all about and why it's valuable

343
00:16:22,395 --> 00:16:23,794
and who might say to a friend

344
00:16:23,995 --> 00:16:24,794
I support this.

345
00:16:24,794 --> 00:16:26,395
I think this will make Bitcoin better

346
00:16:26,695 --> 00:16:30,294
when we have a vast majority of Bitcoiners saying that

347
00:16:30,495 --> 00:16:31,094
then

348
00:16:31,495 --> 00:16:32,094
the

349
00:16:33,395 --> 00:16:34,695
I think that we would see

350
00:16:34,794 --> 00:16:37,395
that that political will materialize

351
00:16:37,794 --> 00:16:40,294
in terms of what's actually the code and what

352
00:16:40,395 --> 00:16:42,395
what soft works are adopted and what aren't

353
00:16:42,895 --> 00:16:46,094
so I'm optimistic in the near future hard to say exactly when

354
00:16:46,594 --> 00:16:47,495
we'll actually see

355
00:16:48,395 --> 00:16:50,094
the and then one other thing is that

356
00:16:50,495 --> 00:16:52,075
and this is kind of a complicated and controversial

357
00:16:52,094 --> 00:16:53,294
notion, but

358
00:16:53,594 --> 00:16:54,695
some people might just

359
00:16:54,794 --> 00:16:57,395
you know pontificate that if the flippening occurs

360
00:16:57,794 --> 00:17:00,674
and Ethereum or Ethereum gets close to flipping Bitcoin by

361
00:17:00,695 --> 00:17:01,594
market cap

362
00:17:01,794 --> 00:17:02,895
some might say that

363
00:17:03,294 --> 00:17:05,175
that would you know, perhaps threaten some Bitcoin

364
00:17:05,194 --> 00:17:06,395
narratives

365
00:17:06,594 --> 00:17:07,594
narratives like

366
00:17:07,895 --> 00:17:10,895
that Bitcoin is always the best investment number go up,

367
00:17:11,194 --> 00:17:13,094
you know that it's going to become the world's money.

368
00:17:13,495 --> 00:17:15,275
It wouldn't be great if like something else had a larger

369
00:17:15,295 --> 00:17:17,395
network effect that had a similar

370
00:17:17,795 --> 00:17:18,295
you know

371
00:17:18,795 --> 00:17:20,895
technological foundation and you know

372
00:17:22,295 --> 00:17:25,895
being on blockchain and being a free market kind of project.

373
00:17:25,995 --> 00:17:28,275
Of course Ethereum lacks many important things that Bitcoin

374
00:17:28,295 --> 00:17:29,395
has like

375
00:17:29,795 --> 00:17:31,295
you know anonymous founder

376
00:17:31,594 --> 00:17:33,094
and sort of ethical,

377
00:17:33,295 --> 00:17:34,495
you know origins

378
00:17:34,694 --> 00:17:37,194
and you know what there is no ICO

379
00:17:37,295 --> 00:17:39,275
there wasn't like marketing Satoshi just put it out there

380
00:17:39,295 --> 00:17:40,594
in a very pure

381
00:17:40,795 --> 00:17:41,395
way.

382
00:17:41,694 --> 00:17:43,875
So and also Bitcoin was the first and nothing else will

383
00:17:43,895 --> 00:17:46,074
ever be have that singular status in terms of the order

384
00:17:46,094 --> 00:17:46,995
of cryptos.

385
00:17:47,495 --> 00:17:49,194
So Bitcoin has a lot of advantages

386
00:17:49,495 --> 00:17:51,194
and a great narrative, but

387
00:17:51,594 --> 00:17:53,775
if it were to be flipped that wouldn't be helpful for its

388
00:17:53,795 --> 00:17:54,795
narratives, right?

389
00:17:54,795 --> 00:17:56,775
And it would certainly supercharge the energy within

390
00:17:56,795 --> 00:17:58,194
the altcoin community

391
00:17:58,694 --> 00:18:00,875
because then there'd be a race to see who can flip Ethereum.

392
00:18:00,895 --> 00:18:02,875
Maybe it's going to be some other thing like Avalanche

393
00:18:02,895 --> 00:18:04,395
Solana or whatever.

394
00:18:04,694 --> 00:18:08,875
So it would be great if Bitcoin could maintain its status as

395
00:18:09,074 --> 00:18:11,854
the one and only the biggest and the best and in the long

396
00:18:11,875 --> 00:18:15,054
run regain a hundred percent dominance rather than where it

397
00:18:15,074 --> 00:18:16,375
is now, which is lower

398
00:18:16,775 --> 00:18:17,974
than the 50%.

399
00:18:18,275 --> 00:18:21,454
So I think it'd be great if Bitcoin could could sustain

400
00:18:21,474 --> 00:18:22,574
being number one.

401
00:18:22,574 --> 00:18:24,974
It could if it could keep the market cap crown.

402
00:18:25,775 --> 00:18:27,854
So to answer your question about politics, I do believe

403
00:18:27,875 --> 00:18:30,775
that one factor that is potentially relevant

404
00:18:30,974 --> 00:18:32,175
is if the coins

405
00:18:32,474 --> 00:18:35,554
sort of like the threat of flipping continues to grow and

406
00:18:35,574 --> 00:18:38,454
Ethereum gets to be like let's say 75% of Bitcoin's market

407
00:18:38,755 --> 00:18:40,454
cap within a year or something like that

408
00:18:40,854 --> 00:18:43,035
instead of being like half of Bitcoin's market cap where it

409
00:18:43,054 --> 00:18:43,655
is now.

410
00:18:43,854 --> 00:18:46,454
If that were to happen, I think possibly

411
00:18:46,854 --> 00:18:49,135
that would motivate the community to be less

412
00:18:49,155 --> 00:18:50,454
conservative.

413
00:18:50,755 --> 00:18:53,135
And another way of putting that is to say that the Overton

414
00:18:53,155 --> 00:18:55,155
window might widen

415
00:18:55,354 --> 00:18:57,434
as we say in like philosophy like the Overton window

416
00:18:57,454 --> 00:18:59,054
widening meaning

417
00:18:59,354 --> 00:19:00,454
as you know, the

418
00:19:00,954 --> 00:19:04,155
the acceptability of innovative and progressive ideas

419
00:19:04,454 --> 00:19:05,954
becomes, you know, higher.

420
00:19:05,954 --> 00:19:07,854
There's more tolerance for new ideas.

421
00:19:08,054 --> 00:19:10,054
There's less tolerance for conservatism.

422
00:19:10,554 --> 00:19:13,334
So maybe, you know, drivechain might in the eyes of many

423
00:19:13,354 --> 00:19:16,454
people be the next soft fork, but they're also saying

424
00:19:16,954 --> 00:19:18,834
some people might say, well, maybe we don't need a soft

425
00:19:18,854 --> 00:19:19,454
fork.

426
00:19:19,454 --> 00:19:21,834
Maybe we can just stay how we are until things really seem

427
00:19:21,854 --> 00:19:24,155
to be necessary for change.

428
00:19:24,554 --> 00:19:28,255
So I think that maybe if the flippening gets closer than

429
00:19:28,655 --> 00:19:29,155
the

430
00:19:29,755 --> 00:19:32,734
the appetite for something like drivechain might get higher.

431
00:19:32,755 --> 00:19:35,554
But I really don't like that way of thinking.

432
00:19:35,755 --> 00:19:37,054
I would much prefer

433
00:19:37,954 --> 00:19:38,554
let me be clear.

434
00:19:38,554 --> 00:19:40,155
I would much prefer that drivechain

435
00:19:40,854 --> 00:19:41,655
is adopted

436
00:19:42,155 --> 00:19:42,655
not

437
00:19:43,255 --> 00:19:45,155
out of a desire to

438
00:19:45,755 --> 00:19:46,854
make Bitcoin

439
00:19:47,554 --> 00:19:49,354
more competitive.

440
00:19:50,354 --> 00:19:52,255
I would much rather desire.

441
00:19:52,354 --> 00:19:53,655
I would much rather prefer

442
00:19:54,554 --> 00:19:58,554
that drivechain is adopted solely on the basis of a desire

443
00:19:59,155 --> 00:20:01,054
to embrace innovation

444
00:20:01,454 --> 00:20:02,255
on Bitcoin.

445
00:20:02,424 --> 00:20:12,824
That, you know, the desire to have Bitcoin be a place for technological innovation, for building, you know, build on Bitcoin, develop new ideas, experiment, test.

446
00:20:12,824 --> 00:20:25,624
And that's what drivechain allows. It allows for sidechains to exist and be created a new experimental technology that are these technologies aren't available on layer one Bitcoin.

447
00:20:26,184 --> 00:20:31,624
And instead of having to go use an altcoin, you can use Bitcoin by using a sidechain on Bitcoin.

448
00:20:31,624 --> 00:20:35,223
Now, of course, there's a there's a trust model which is different than layer one Bitcoin.

449
00:20:35,863 --> 00:20:37,944
The fees may be lower or higher.

450
00:20:38,504 --> 00:20:44,183
The security, you know, in most cases would be lower almost by necessity.

451
00:20:44,183 --> 00:20:49,863
But the there still is a lot of value there to be created.

452
00:20:49,863 --> 00:21:03,703
Right. Because like the security on the altcoin is even worse, probably in some cases, as the case may be, depending on the facts and circumstances, it's better that all of these users and developers build on Bitcoin rather than build on altcoins.

453
00:21:03,703 --> 00:21:12,904
So the drivechain vision is the vision that we we bring in all that value and development and experimentation and value creation and accrual to Bitcoin.

454
00:21:13,623 --> 00:21:15,144
So I'm optimistic that will happen.

455
00:21:15,544 --> 00:21:23,063
And I would like for the motivation to be positive and to be about building and building, not to be worrying about the flippening.

456
00:21:23,383 --> 00:21:29,544
But I do feel a realistic and honest answer to your question is that both of those factors are motivations for drivechain.

457
00:21:29,784 --> 00:21:33,784
Some people like it because it helps Bitcoin compete with altcoins.

458
00:21:34,263 --> 00:21:37,703
Others like it because they just like innovation.

459
00:21:37,703 --> 00:21:43,623
They like positive thinking and innovating and they don't really care about what's going on outside of Bitcoin.

460
00:21:43,943 --> 00:21:51,703
They want Bitcoin to be as best as it can be as a as a bedrock for innovation and value accrual and value creation.

461
00:21:52,504 --> 00:21:58,584
So I like that optimistic vision, not the vision that's out of fear and competition, but rather the vision of building.

462
00:21:59,544 --> 00:22:01,544
So that's it.

463
00:22:01,544 --> 00:22:25,463
Have you seen an uptick in, because I would expect at least like there's been a little narrative shift with the whole ordinal ordeal for, you know, just use cases that are outside of the narrow, I guess the narrow imagination of certain like elements within Bitcoin, which I think they're valid.

464
00:22:25,463 --> 00:22:30,903
But I think they've dropped the ball on some of these other, let's say, digitally native use cases.

465
00:22:30,903 --> 00:22:43,623
Have you seen any uptick from like people like kind of coming into the drivechain community from that and seeing kind of like, hey, there's another there's this other use case that brings.

466
00:22:44,103 --> 00:23:06,504
That's kind of silly, but brings, you know, fees to miners and kind of solidifies some of that that I guess that the security model going forward and having a greater percentage of your mining revenue coming from fees instead of coming from newly minted Bitcoin.

467
00:23:07,063 --> 00:23:10,424
I was wondering if you have seen that or, you know, some type of shift.

468
00:23:10,424 --> 00:23:21,784
And then also kind of going back in history, I'm glad to hear that Adam Back is, I guess, partial to towards drivechain.

469
00:23:22,903 --> 00:23:36,024
I don't know how true this is, but just listening and reading the discussion about drivechain over the years, it seemed like the block stream kind of liquid.

470
00:23:37,463 --> 00:23:56,744
Contingent was a roadblock, or maybe that was my misinterpretation, because I could see how maybe liquid or block stream could see drivechain as some type of competition for, you know, liquids revenue model, which I don't like.

471
00:23:56,744 --> 00:24:00,584
I would I would be like, well, you should you guys should try to build your own drivechain.

472
00:24:00,584 --> 00:24:17,864
But maybe I'd like for you to kind of correct me or or maybe, you know, agree that like there has been a I guess a narrative shift with that contingent and being a little less hostile towards drivechain.

473
00:24:19,943 --> 00:24:22,823
So I guess it sounds like a separate question.

474
00:24:23,783 --> 00:24:25,783
Those are those are all great questions.

475
00:24:26,024 --> 00:24:38,263
The first was about ordinals and the second was about the kind of Bitcoin community history in terms of the role of blockstream in the adoption or non adoption of drivechain since drivechain was first created in 2015 or seven years in.

476
00:24:39,624 --> 00:24:46,904
And had there been a shift in terms of like higher support from this, you know, very well known company within the Bitcoin space.

477
00:24:47,703 --> 00:24:57,864
So regarding the ordinals, drivechain is very harmonious with the ordinals news that's been talked about for weeks, which is that people are doing NFTs on Bitcoin.

478
00:24:58,424 --> 00:25:04,744
There is a drivechain that's planned, which would focus on NFTs and similar technology.

479
00:25:05,223 --> 00:25:07,543
So this is called the BitAssets drivechain.

480
00:25:08,263 --> 00:25:12,904
And this is inspired by Bitcoin's past with Counterparty and similar things.

481
00:25:13,144 --> 00:25:14,783
But it would be much improved.

482
00:25:14,943 --> 00:25:24,783
It would be like the greatest place to do NFTs on Bitcoin, as well as other technologies potentially like like stable stable coins.

483
00:25:25,184 --> 00:25:40,783
And but regarding NFTs and ordinals, what the BitAssets drivechain would allow that ordinals don't is there are a few like technical advantages that would make people much happier with using BitAssets if drivechain were possible.

484
00:25:41,024 --> 00:25:46,543
Right now, they could instead be doing ordinals on BitAssets and it would be much better in certain ways.

485
00:25:47,024 --> 00:25:54,064
So the BitAssets sidechain and now I'm quoting from the drivechain website just to make sure I give you the right technical description.

486
00:25:54,304 --> 00:26:04,383
You can find what I'm about to say, which is just a sentence or two from drivechain.info forward slash projects forward slash index dot html.

487
00:26:04,543 --> 00:26:18,943
Or you can just go to drivechain.info and then click on the right hand menu where it says projects, sidechain projects, and you'll see six projects and others as well that are planned that are envisioned.

488
00:26:18,943 --> 00:26:29,744
So once drivechain is adopted, these drivechains are likely to be launched in reality on on Bitcoin as drivechains, as you know, BIP300 and 301 sidechains.

489
00:26:30,144 --> 00:26:32,064
So one of them is called BitAssets.

490
00:26:32,144 --> 00:26:49,103
And so the problem with NFT projects in the past on Bitcoin is that they consumed layer one block space and they also confused retail users in terms of like attaching, you know, like images to specific satoshis.

491
00:26:49,103 --> 00:26:50,943
It's like a complicated way of doing things.

492
00:26:51,184 --> 00:27:04,383
Whereas with the BitAssets sidechain, it's better because the BitAssets sidechain would have its own blockchain, you know, a sidechain of Bitcoin and its own block space because that's how sidechains work in drivechain.

493
00:27:04,383 --> 00:27:20,064
And it would use Bitcoin for all transaction fees, which makes clear that Bitcoin is money and that the the assets are separate so that assets aren't like attached to like some individual satoshi or whatnot.

494
00:27:20,064 --> 00:27:24,144
The way Ordinals works, Ordinals is a little bit complicated.

495
00:27:24,543 --> 00:27:32,144
It was, you know, it seems based on the discussions I've heard, it was sort of discovered as sort of like an exploit or a loophole in the way things are done.

496
00:27:32,383 --> 00:27:38,383
Whereas the BitAssets approach is like very clearly aligned in every way economically and technically.

497
00:27:38,703 --> 00:27:42,703
It's like very straightforward how things would be done, why they're done that way.

498
00:27:43,024 --> 00:27:47,024
It's not like an exploit, you know, or at least one couldn't argue that it is.

499
00:27:47,503 --> 00:27:53,263
And it doesn't compete with layer one block space to the degree that like Ordinals do.

500
00:27:53,424 --> 00:27:55,823
So there's that advantage.

501
00:27:56,543 --> 00:28:04,703
So, yeah, NFTs on Bitcoin will be supercharged with drivechain in specifically the BitAssets drivechain.

502
00:28:05,184 --> 00:28:17,823
And so if drivechain is adopted and if the BitAssets drivechain is launched, then, you know, if everything in the best possible case, we see an enormous market for NFTs on that drivechain.

503
00:28:18,543 --> 00:28:22,464
And that'd be really cool because NFTs are something that people like.

504
00:28:22,943 --> 00:28:32,383
And there's some people who are very, very smart who think they're not just simply art, but they could be like part of people's kind of online experience in various ways.

505
00:28:32,943 --> 00:28:37,424
And we want to enable that innovation to accrue value to Bitcoin.

506
00:28:37,463 --> 00:28:52,384
So if it turns out that NFTs are like the big thing over the next 20 years, like growing humongously, you know, disproving all of the detractors and skeptics, we would we would want that value to accrue to Bitcoin and not to Ethereum.

507
00:28:53,023 --> 00:29:05,824
You know, because Bitcoin is the offers a base layer that is incorruptibly, you know, simple, time tested, excellent in terms of its sort of its inception and the ethos of its inception.

508
00:29:06,064 --> 00:29:11,463
It's cypherpunk heritage, kind of libertarian sort of objectives and origins.

509
00:29:11,744 --> 00:29:13,223
That's what really draws me to it.

510
00:29:13,903 --> 00:29:20,744
And I like how Bitcoin has that movement within it of politically minded kind of technological revolutionaries.

511
00:29:21,624 --> 00:29:26,184
So, yeah, NFTs are made possible and we separate it from the base chain.

512
00:29:26,184 --> 00:29:29,704
So unlike ordinals where people are debating, is this bad?

513
00:29:29,704 --> 00:29:36,744
Is it good? And it's weighing down the layer one nodes with all this stuff they have to prune or not.

514
00:29:36,783 --> 00:29:38,463
And there's discussions about all that.

515
00:29:38,583 --> 00:29:42,983
So we have a separate block space for NFTs when we do it on a drivechain.

516
00:29:43,624 --> 00:29:46,624
And that removes that kind of political friction.

517
00:29:47,023 --> 00:29:50,384
And then your second question was about Blockstream.

518
00:29:50,663 --> 00:29:53,023
It sounds like you've been in Bitcoin longer than I have, Maverick.

519
00:29:53,504 --> 00:29:59,824
I came into Bitcoin about two years ago, roughly speaking, and I've been like extremely interested during part of that.

520
00:30:00,023 --> 00:30:05,663
And I would say the history of Blockstream is something I've been learning about.

521
00:30:06,064 --> 00:30:08,384
They have a great website with a lot of really good content.

522
00:30:08,744 --> 00:30:13,543
They have brilliant people there like Greg who have been there or are there now.

523
00:30:13,543 --> 00:30:23,424
So a lot of great names who've written many good essays like Greg Maxwell, Adam Back, Andrew Poultra and Luke Jass Jr.

524
00:30:23,583 --> 00:30:27,663
You know, either is right now or has been a Blockstream member.

525
00:30:27,663 --> 00:30:32,824
And he spoke in our last drivechain space to me and others, which was really great.

526
00:30:33,064 --> 00:30:42,663
Very smart guy. And I feel that no matter what happened in the past and no matter what reasons there were for, you know, the support by any particular person for any project.

527
00:30:42,783 --> 00:30:51,103
At this moment, it looks like things are getting very favorable within the community in terms of people gradually moving forward in terms of openly supporting drivechain.

528
00:30:51,463 --> 00:30:59,184
And I respect totally anyone's hesitation because the history of Bitcoin, it seems there have been times of friction.

529
00:30:59,424 --> 00:31:06,783
There have been times of community, you know, factions where, you know, some people weren't happy and they wanted big blocks or they wanted this or that.

530
00:31:07,504 --> 00:31:12,384
So I understand the hesitation that some may have regarding changes.

531
00:31:13,424 --> 00:31:17,824
And as long as we're doing well, which we are, right, we're number one, the biggest crypto.

532
00:31:18,304 --> 00:31:22,304
So long as things are going well, some would say, why change?

533
00:31:22,384 --> 00:31:24,343
Why fix a thing that's broken?

534
00:31:24,944 --> 00:31:29,264
So, of course, the rationale for drivechain is very compelling.

535
00:31:29,264 --> 00:31:42,864
And sometimes it makes sense to improve even when you're ahead, like when Tiger Woods, when he was like number one in the world by far, he announced that he was going to like significantly alter his swing of the golf club because he wanted to be even better.

536
00:31:43,504 --> 00:31:46,103
So it's good to always be trying to be best.

537
00:31:47,064 --> 00:31:49,304
I mean, Bitcoiners often say we're so early.

538
00:31:49,583 --> 00:31:50,864
That's a mantra. We're so early.

539
00:31:50,864 --> 00:31:54,983
We're so early. Well, yeah, that works both ways, right?

540
00:31:54,983 --> 00:31:58,504
Like if you're running a race, you've taken three steps and you're in the lead.

541
00:31:59,424 --> 00:32:02,304
That's not necessarily the beginning of a victory.

542
00:32:02,944 --> 00:32:10,944
You could be running too fast and run out of energy and then you end up, you know, having a heart attack halfway through the race and then someone else wins.

543
00:32:11,903 --> 00:32:15,504
So I think it's great for us to be scientific.

544
00:32:15,543 --> 00:32:22,023
Ultimately, what drivechain is about is being scientific and rational and careful and intelligent and ambitious.

545
00:32:22,384 --> 00:32:30,343
So what drivechains about is asking ourselves, what is the most compelling crypto economic design that a cryptocurrency can possibly have?

546
00:32:31,264 --> 00:32:36,903
And then in the case of Bitcoin, how can we upgrade Bitcoin to reflect that optimal design?

547
00:32:37,064 --> 00:32:40,384
So the optimal design is one that's going to have tremendous extensibility.

548
00:32:41,143 --> 00:32:45,543
So that's what Adam Beck likes to use when he talks about Bitcoin.

549
00:32:45,783 --> 00:32:55,184
Like I've transcribed some of his statements about not Bitcoin or drivechain just to be really like detail oriented in my appreciation of them.

550
00:32:55,184 --> 00:32:59,663
So one of the words he uses sometimes is this notion of extensibility.

551
00:32:59,663 --> 00:33:01,744
So if you look it up, it's a really great word.

552
00:33:02,944 --> 00:33:13,583
The dictionary definition is within computing extensibility means the quality of being designed to allow the addition of new capabilities or functionality.

553
00:33:14,583 --> 00:33:22,783
So the quote example is, quote, the software has been written from the ground up for extensibility and customization, end quote.

554
00:33:23,304 --> 00:33:25,663
So that really speaks to me about drivechain.

555
00:33:25,704 --> 00:33:38,543
This is all about enabling people to create other protocols, but use the Bitcoin unit of account and with a two way peg enable the demand on the sidechain to create demand for Bitcoin.

556
00:33:38,983 --> 00:33:48,463
So if we have like a privacy sidechain and people demand the token on that sidechain, they have to like Bitcoin will be sent into the two way peg to generate the token on the sidechain.

557
00:33:48,463 --> 00:33:54,264
So all demand for the token that's native on the drivechain will be demand for Bitcoin.

558
00:33:54,264 --> 00:34:00,064
So it enables basically all the demand for altcoins to instead be demand for Bitcoin.

559
00:34:00,064 --> 00:34:02,983
This sends Bitcoin's price to the moon, right?

560
00:34:02,983 --> 00:34:16,504
Like right now, if we had this, we would have double the Bitcoin price or more because there would be so much like support and harmony among Bitcoin users, none of them leaving to do altcoins, but instead just staying and building on Bitcoin.

561
00:34:16,783 --> 00:34:19,744
So, of course, it's not going to bring, you know, the nirvana.

562
00:34:20,064 --> 00:34:28,223
We're still going to have people who use crypto assets for speculative purposes and this and that.

563
00:34:28,223 --> 00:34:33,463
But, you know, Satoshi himself put poker code into Bitcoin's first software.

564
00:34:34,143 --> 00:34:38,184
He had like put he had like call, raise, fold.

565
00:34:38,184 --> 00:34:47,744
You can read the code and see where he wrote poker terms and the code to make an actual on chain poker situation like in Bitcoin.

566
00:34:48,143 --> 00:34:54,103
So if anyone's like saying, oh, shit, coins are just a casino, it's just gambling.

567
00:34:54,543 --> 00:34:57,504
Well, hello, the guy who made Bitcoin.

568
00:34:58,504 --> 00:35:02,543
Like he wasn't a puritan, he was a he was a dude.

569
00:35:02,864 --> 00:35:10,264
He liked to play poker like nothing's wrong with other people being free to have some fun and speculate on this or that, play a game.

570
00:35:10,543 --> 00:35:11,624
He would have loved entities.

571
00:35:11,624 --> 00:35:12,663
He would have loved that.

572
00:35:13,864 --> 00:35:14,424
Yeah, go ahead.

573
00:35:14,424 --> 00:35:17,704
That type of stuff. I mean, yeah, I'm totally on board.

574
00:35:18,384 --> 00:35:21,143
Like speculation is a uniquely human activity.

575
00:35:21,264 --> 00:35:23,944
Right. We're very forward focus people.

576
00:35:24,504 --> 00:35:27,223
And yeah, I'm totally on board with that.

577
00:35:27,264 --> 00:35:37,064
I understand people's criticisms about speculation, speculation being the only activity which, you know, like any activity, you drink too much water and that's bad for you, too.

578
00:35:37,064 --> 00:35:38,744
So I get that point.

579
00:35:38,944 --> 00:35:45,583
And, you know, poker and all those other stuff are usually great use cases for that stuff.

580
00:35:45,704 --> 00:35:47,143
But what is it called?

581
00:35:47,143 --> 00:36:15,704
I, I was really driven or I should say I didn't mean to say it that way, but I've always been very impressed with drivechain what Paul's done, because I think he very thoughtfully this isn't a question, just more of a statement, balanced a lot of different interests and philosophical orientations, because I do appreciate Bitcoin's conservatism.

582
00:36:16,663 --> 00:36:20,864
And the risk of, you know, moving fast and breaking things.

583
00:36:21,384 --> 00:36:40,583
But you also have this dual component within Bitcoin that is highly experimental and drivechain seems to thread the needle of balancing a lot of different interests while only really instituting, from what I can understand, a very small change at the protocol level.

584
00:36:40,903 --> 00:36:52,264
Right. You're not really not turning Bitcoin into, you know, Ethereum or, you know, bolting on any other like odd features.

585
00:36:52,264 --> 00:37:11,944
And almost all the, you know, dumb or exciting or experimental initiatives can be done on these separate networks that Bitcoiners can, you know, risk if they they can risk their Bitcoin if they choose to.

586
00:37:11,944 --> 00:37:16,863
And if, you know, if they if they want to stay away from it completely and just huddle, they can do that, too.

587
00:37:17,424 --> 00:37:30,903
So I was always just kind of confused for a while as like why this wasn't a and I know you can't speak to it, but it always baffled me why that wasn't a a bigger push.

588
00:37:32,304 --> 00:37:38,424
And and like you said, you know, there's risk to doing things, but there's also risk to not doing things.

589
00:37:38,424 --> 00:37:44,143
And I think it's been a big miss, in my opinion, that this hasn't been pushed through.

590
00:37:44,143 --> 00:37:50,704
But I'm glad that Paul and yourself and others are are keeping at it.

591
00:37:50,984 --> 00:38:03,903
And it sounds like, especially with guys like Adam Back and others talking a little more positively, that this actually could come a lot faster than people think.

592
00:38:03,903 --> 00:38:15,344
And I I take your example of like how political things can seem out of the Overton window and things happen and all of a sudden it becomes a thing.

593
00:38:15,903 --> 00:38:18,543
And it seems like drive change on that trajectory.

594
00:38:20,464 --> 00:38:22,023
Anyways, end of my speech there.

595
00:38:23,543 --> 00:38:24,623
That was a great speech.

596
00:38:24,623 --> 00:38:27,184
I loved it. I agree with everything you said.

597
00:38:29,383 --> 00:38:31,743
It's going to be very interesting to watch this matter evolve.

598
00:38:31,743 --> 00:38:41,584
There are some times in life when very good ideas are not pursued by a person or a community that has the opportunity to pursue them.

599
00:38:42,263 --> 00:38:44,104
People make mistakes all the time in life.

600
00:38:44,143 --> 00:38:55,184
Since we're fallible, we have incomplete information biases, you know, personal sort of commitments and ideas.

601
00:38:55,184 --> 00:39:07,424
So there's no guarantee that any group, like any person, the perfect thing and people could be interested in an idea that's good for the wrong reasons.

602
00:39:09,023 --> 00:39:09,383
So.

603
00:39:10,903 --> 00:39:24,704
Well, if you could, if you could diagnose, you know, just like your armchair psychologist as an armchair psychologist, you know, what what do you think was the what were the big mental blockers?

604
00:39:26,064 --> 00:39:36,424
Or, you know, personal or, you know, what were the big blockers that kind of allowed this to, you know, just kind of like be put off to the side?

605
00:39:37,863 --> 00:39:54,743
Because to me, this is like a bigger drivechain in my order of priorities, you know, and I have no I have no connection to Bitcoin Core, but like, you know, the drivechain is a much bigger deal than whatever SegWit brought in or even Taproot.

606
00:39:55,184 --> 00:40:01,704
You know, that's just my, I guess, unqualified opinion, but it just seemed to me that the.

607
00:40:02,123 --> 00:40:29,283
The risk of not doing something like that and the improvements that have been made outside of Bitcoin were like, hey, you know, if you want to continue to keep dominance, right, there are these other markets that have opened up and whether you like them or not, you know, people want to, yeah, they want to experiment and this was the perfect thing.

608
00:40:29,283 --> 00:40:35,523
So, yeah, I don't know. I don't know if you have any thoughts on what was the the psychological or technical blockers.

609
00:40:37,922 --> 00:40:56,603
One of the concerns is that miners will be malfeasant, there is this there's this concern, there's a concern that miners can't be trusted, and this is an impression, whether accurate or not, that arose in the wake of the block size war of 2015 to 2017.

610
00:40:57,123 --> 00:41:06,682
Drivechain, because of its technological design, you know, involves the miners and it involves them in a significant way.

611
00:41:07,682 --> 00:41:31,923
So if one has an aversion to miners generally, if one's outlook on Bitcoin is that the nodes are supreme and the miners are secondary and in some cases can't be trusted, then this attitude about Bitcoin, whether right or wrong, would lead to perhaps a lesser level of enthusiasm for drivechain.

612
00:41:32,603 --> 00:41:44,642
A lesser level of belief that drivechains would both potentially accrue enormous value and be sustainable in terms of having an incentive compatible design.

613
00:41:45,642 --> 00:42:14,203
Incentive compatibility, as you know, refers to the notion that a crypto economic system will produce a value and accrue value, even despite the fact that the participants are in a peer to peer, you know, blockchain arrangement, mutually distrusting, potentially anonymous, potentially and self-interested, potentially, despite those factors in the design.

614
00:42:14,402 --> 00:42:19,563
And the assumptions there, there is an emergent value and incentive compatibility.

615
00:42:19,843 --> 00:42:32,682
And some people have aversion to the idea that if there is greater focus on miners being relied upon to do the right thing, then the system wouldn't be sustainable.

616
00:42:32,682 --> 00:42:46,242
Of course, in drivechain, all the evidence, in my view, shows that there would be sustained value in the drivechains, the money would not be stolen out of the hashrate escrow, there wouldn't be this miner theft.

617
00:42:46,483 --> 00:42:59,042
There's a great essay by John Light of Sovereign, who is an expert on zero knowledge, proofs and roll ups and other related, you know, cutting edge things in crypto.

618
00:42:59,762 --> 00:43:16,923
And he wrote two great blog posts about whether or not the hypothesis of drivechain critics is correct, that the miners are likely to rob the hashrate escrow of the Bitcoin held there for the miners greedy, you know, pursuit of profit.

619
00:43:17,522 --> 00:43:32,882
So I think the miners are like a restaurateur where they don't want to rob the customers, they want the customers to come back so much that the restaurant can expand and build a second floor and a third floor and have customers endlessly coming in.

620
00:43:32,882 --> 00:43:57,203
And the idea that the restaurant one day would decide to just walk into the restaurant and say, hey, everyone, you know, give us your money, and then they would get all the money out of the wallets and purses, and then they would never again have a customer ever, but they would have gotten a one off profit, you know, windfall, and they wouldn't have had to serve any food, they could just get the money.

621
00:43:57,203 --> 00:44:19,443
So the drivechain skeptics think that the drivechain design, some of the skeptics think that the miners will just steal from the hashrate escrow, these people, in many cases, probably aren't aware that the theft would involve a number of months, and would be immediately apparent from the beginning that it began from the first second of the theft, in my understanding, the theft would be known.

622
00:44:19,443 --> 00:44:27,763
And it would be known that over 51% of all the Bitcoin hashrate is being deployed for the purpose of this malfeasant behavior.

623
00:44:28,763 --> 00:44:53,082
The critics also probably aren't aware that the very possibility of the miners, you know, control over the hashrate escrow in that way, is actually a part of the intended design of drivechain, because it would not be malfeasant for the miners to do that action, if the maintenance of the drivechain were not in the best interests of the Bitcoin community.

624
00:44:53,082 --> 00:45:13,763
If the Bitcoin community determined that a drivechain needed to discontinue, to prevent its further threat of somehow lowering the value of Bitcoin or interfering with another drivechain, then the miners terminating the drivechain would be the community's will expressed through the miners.

625
00:45:14,563 --> 00:45:21,642
So the fact that the miners have some control over the hashrate escrow has benefits in certain situations.

626
00:45:22,522 --> 00:45:24,682
So the critics probably aren't aware of that.

627
00:45:24,883 --> 00:45:45,642
And if the critics are aware of all that, and their only criticism is that the miners will steal in their expectation, the critics then are resorting to a kind of anti-capitalist mentality, in which the critics believe that it would not be right for the Bitcoin users to have the option to use a drivechain because the drivechain would be unsafe.

628
00:45:46,603 --> 00:45:58,443
But of course, that's no different in nature than no-coiners saying that Bitcoin is fundamentally insecure, that it could have a bug, and therefore the government should ban it to stop all this Bitcoining.

629
00:45:59,443 --> 00:46:03,323
And the Bitcoiners respond, of course, with, well, let the free market decide.

630
00:46:03,323 --> 00:46:30,962
Well, I think that the cryptocurrency of the future that will accrue the most value, have the largest network effect, and in the end become the world's base layer of all the money, that crypto is going to be one that has the maximum extensibility and allows its users to do whatever they want on top of the system in a way that allows the system to accrue value from the user's demands and preferences.

631
00:46:30,962 --> 00:46:33,962
Not a system that has a narrow mandate.

632
00:46:34,962 --> 00:46:44,962
Some Bitcoiners would say, in complete contradiction of Satoshi's own writings and behavior, that some Bitcoiners might say, well, Bitcoin is only for money.

633
00:46:45,962 --> 00:46:49,962
But of course, that ignores the fact that money is a heterogeneous economic category.

634
00:46:50,962 --> 00:46:51,962
There is multiple kinds of money.

635
00:46:51,962 --> 00:46:58,962
There's blockchain money, which is very private, and that's what's being used more and more in the dark markets instead of Bitcoin.

636
00:46:59,962 --> 00:47:02,962
People want to use Monero or Zcash because it's so private.

637
00:47:03,962 --> 00:47:04,962
They don't want to be traced.

638
00:47:05,962 --> 00:47:10,962
And with Bitcoin, if you're very sophisticated, you can probably do it anonymously fully.

639
00:47:11,962 --> 00:47:15,962
But I think my understanding is that with Monero, let's just be honest.

640
00:47:16,962 --> 00:47:17,962
Let's just tell the truth.

641
00:47:18,962 --> 00:47:19,962
Monero probably is more private than Bitcoin.

642
00:47:20,962 --> 00:47:29,962
For any level of sophistication of the user, if you're using a privacy-focused altcoin, you're probably getting more privacy because that's what they're prioritizing.

643
00:47:30,962 --> 00:47:37,962
And some of the Bitcoiners might respond, well, it's just a speculative altcoin and that's all there is to it.

644
00:47:38,962 --> 00:47:39,962
They just deny.

645
00:47:40,962 --> 00:47:44,962
They're in denial of the idea that some technology allows for greater privacy.

646
00:47:45,962 --> 00:47:46,962
And the same applies to the big blocks.

647
00:47:46,962 --> 00:47:49,962
Big blocks have some potential use case, right?

648
00:47:50,962 --> 00:47:55,962
Lower decentralization, meaning fewer nodes, more expensive nodes, but lower fees, too.

649
00:47:56,962 --> 00:47:58,962
So the Bitcoiners will say, well, there's lightning.

650
00:47:59,962 --> 00:48:00,962
That'll give the low fees.

651
00:48:01,962 --> 00:48:04,962
So basically, it's best if Bitcoiners have more choices, more options.

652
00:48:05,962 --> 00:48:06,962
That's what capitalism is all about.

653
00:48:07,962 --> 00:48:13,962
That's why we have very rich, free markets, because the government isn't making too many decisions for people.

654
00:48:13,962 --> 00:48:26,962
And the fewer, the less regulation, the more consumer choice there is, the more value accrual and entrepreneurial, competitive, free market process value accrual occurs when everyone can just do whatever they want.

655
00:48:27,962 --> 00:48:31,962
And that is kind of the drivechain mentality.

656
00:48:32,962 --> 00:48:33,962
It's more capitalistic, in my opinion.

657
00:48:34,963 --> 00:48:35,963
It's more economics oriented.

658
00:48:36,963 --> 00:48:43,963
It's not as much sort of this narrower kind of cryptographic security is the only level of security mindset.

659
00:48:44,963 --> 00:48:46,963
There's some people who want things to be absolutely secure.

660
00:48:47,963 --> 00:48:54,963
Like there's this great tweet from Adam Back from 2019 where he writes, and I'm now quoting from memory so I could have it a little bit wrong.

661
00:48:55,963 --> 00:49:04,963
But he tweeted, in Bitcoin, the signatures are cryptographically secured and therefore asymmetrically secure.

662
00:49:05,963 --> 00:49:07,963
Signatures are asymmetrically secure.

663
00:49:08,963 --> 00:49:11,963
But transaction finality is unfortunately not.

664
00:49:12,963 --> 00:49:13,963
And he used the word unfortunately.

665
00:49:14,963 --> 00:49:15,963
I thought that was telling.

666
00:49:16,963 --> 00:49:18,963
It was a very brilliant tweet, very intelligent tweet.

667
00:49:19,963 --> 00:49:24,963
And it affirmed the fact that in Bitcoin, like your signatures are very secure.

668
00:49:25,963 --> 00:49:32,963
The miners can't just like rob, even if they have a powerful computer, they can't rob you of your Bitcoin on layer one.

669
00:49:32,963 --> 00:49:38,963
But transaction finality does depend on an economic.

670
00:49:39,963 --> 00:49:43,963
Majority of hash rate is not being used as a hostile attack vector.

671
00:49:44,963 --> 00:49:52,963
So there is this issue in Bitcoin, the threat of like a hostile miner having a majority of hash rate and blocking transactions.

672
00:49:53,963 --> 00:49:54,963
You jump in. I'm just going on.

673
00:49:55,963 --> 00:50:02,963
I think that was a good breakdown of the kind of the psychology and reasoning that I've seen.

674
00:50:03,963 --> 00:50:20,963
Kind of this, I understand not trusting the miners, but there's this like insistence on dreaming up these malicious miners that are completely and totally irrational and are just looking to steal people's shit.

675
00:50:21,963 --> 00:50:36,963
And a lot of the same arguments that I and I think Paul had pointed this out for a while, like, you know, like you were saying, they are looking for this perfect security that doesn't even exist within the layer one itself.

676
00:50:37,963 --> 00:50:44,963
Right. That is highly reliant upon, let's say, economic self-interest and assumptions for security.

677
00:50:45,963 --> 00:50:47,963
And it seems to work pretty well.

678
00:50:47,963 --> 00:50:51,963
I guess the other I guess this would be the last question.

679
00:50:52,963 --> 00:50:54,963
You brought up John Light and he's been awesome.

680
00:50:55,963 --> 00:51:00,963
I've learned a lot from him over the years, but he, you know, just I don't I don't know.

681
00:51:01,963 --> 00:51:05,963
I'm just, you know, seeing some of the stuff that he's published over the over the years.

682
00:51:05,963 --> 00:51:24,963
Have you guys had have you talked to have you and Paul and later to talk to him about his research with validity roll ups and potentially doing like, I guess, I guess you'd call it a validity drivechain on.

683
00:51:25,963 --> 00:51:29,963
Yeah, that that would settle transactions to Bitcoin.

684
00:51:29,963 --> 00:51:40,963
Has that has that come up, I guess, within his research and your your efforts to get people to build a bunch of different drivechains?

685
00:51:42,963 --> 00:51:49,963
Yeah, John appeared on some Twitter spaces that we hosted like a month ago or maybe it was less than that, like a couple of weeks ago.

686
00:51:50,963 --> 00:51:53,963
So if you DM me, I will try to find them for you.

687
00:51:54,963 --> 00:51:55,963
It wouldn't be hard for me to do that.

688
00:51:55,963 --> 00:52:02,963
So please feel free to just send a DM and I'll get you that because you're curious about that.

689
00:52:03,963 --> 00:52:17,963
But I can say just in brief that I have a quote because it's in the friends of drivechain spreadsheet that I made all these like quotes from people who have a favorable attitude about drivechain and have shared it publicly.

690
00:52:18,963 --> 00:52:22,963
You know, people of who have a well-known name like John Light.

691
00:52:22,963 --> 00:52:24,963
So I have the quote in front of me.

692
00:52:24,963 --> 00:52:36,963
What he said in the Twitter spaces to me was, quote, I would like to see both validity roll ups and drivechains offered as options for people on Bitcoin layer one.

693
00:52:37,963 --> 00:52:39,963
And then I have a dot, dot, dot.

694
00:52:39,963 --> 00:52:41,963
So he said some other stuff.

695
00:52:41,963 --> 00:52:42,963
And then he said the following.

696
00:52:42,963 --> 00:52:47,963
I think it would make sense to do drivechains first rather than wait.

697
00:52:48,963 --> 00:52:52,963
I think it would make sense to do drivechains first rather than wait until validity roll ups are ready.

698
00:52:53,963 --> 00:52:56,963
So I think it's very sensible.

699
00:52:56,963 --> 00:52:59,963
I mean, he is so much more sophisticated than I'll ever be.

700
00:52:59,963 --> 00:53:06,963
But I get what he's saying, I believe, which is that like they're both cool and maybe validity roll ups are even better.

701
00:53:06,963 --> 00:53:20,963
However, if drivechains can be ready in a year from today and validity roll ups can be ready in 10 years from today, you know, to meet like the Bitcoiners appetite for certainty and conservatism, then of course.

702
00:53:20,963 --> 00:53:37,963
And also I think he or someone has said that it's very possible that no, this wasn't him, but someone said that Paul said that if we had done drivechain taproot would have come faster to Bitcoin because we could have tested it first on a drivechain.

703
00:53:37,963 --> 00:53:41,963
So I think that John might be supportive of that notion.

704
00:53:41,963 --> 00:53:45,963
People who love validity roll ups could do it on a drivechain.

705
00:53:45,963 --> 00:53:47,963
They wouldn't have to go to an altcoin.

706
00:53:47,963 --> 00:53:56,963
And then they could experience it within the Bitcoin ecosystem in a safer partitioned context because that's what drivechains are.

707
00:53:56,963 --> 00:54:01,963
They're by design partitioned, meaning that if they fail, it doesn't cause total system failure.

708
00:54:01,963 --> 00:54:03,963
It just causes the failure of the drivechain.

709
00:54:03,963 --> 00:54:09,963
So, yeah, things can come faster to layer one if they're if they're very successful on the drivechain.

710
00:54:09,963 --> 00:54:17,963
That's kind of what drivechain does is it allows for like a multitude of developers to build stuff on top of Bitcoin on a layer two.

711
00:54:18,963 --> 00:54:27,963
And if it's very, very successful and has like, you know, let's say it grows and grows to be like, you know, 60 percent of the value of Bitcoin is like in this drivechain.

712
00:54:27,963 --> 00:54:33,963
Then the community naturally would say, well, this this technology is obviously very demanded and very successful.

713
00:54:33,963 --> 00:54:36,963
Perhaps we should make it part of Bitcoin layer one.

714
00:54:36,963 --> 00:54:39,963
And that way the base layer can benefit from that.

715
00:54:39,963 --> 00:54:43,963
And that way the security model is the base layer security model.

716
00:54:43,963 --> 00:54:46,963
Right. So it's it's a way of testing things.

717
00:54:46,963 --> 00:54:51,963
I think as Paul describes it, I think I'm not I think I'm I'm not sure if I'm applying these ideas.

718
00:54:51,963 --> 00:54:55,963
Right. But I think he he says it allows for Bitcoin development.

719
00:54:55,963 --> 00:55:06,963
Instead of being primarily deliberative in nature, it would become more so competitive in the sense that like the people developing one drivechain, like the privacy drivechain.

720
00:55:06,963 --> 00:55:12,963
If they're really into that, they develop that accrues a ton of value more than other drivechains.

721
00:55:12,963 --> 00:55:15,963
And maybe that technology could eventually come to Bitcoin layer one.

722
00:55:15,963 --> 00:55:27,963
So it allows for a kind of developer competition, which is a superior and more capitalistic method for for understanding the world than mere deliberation.

723
00:55:27,963 --> 00:55:29,963
Like deliberation is the way the government works.

724
00:55:29,963 --> 00:55:32,963
Right. We think and think and think and then we do something.

725
00:55:32,963 --> 00:55:37,963
Whereas competition, that's where there's price signals. That's where there's property at stake.

726
00:55:37,963 --> 00:55:50,963
So it's better if we have the developers compete rather than developers just have to, like, gain status in the community and then politically achieve their implementation.

727
00:55:50,963 --> 00:56:04,963
A lot of a lot of the status gains are, you know, from, I don't know, you know, like just broadcasting your pure thoughts.

728
00:56:04,963 --> 00:56:12,963
Right. Where a lot of the status games before very early on in Bitcoin were very, like, technical and what you could build.

729
00:56:12,963 --> 00:56:23,963
And then it became a little more like, all right, who's going to repeat, you know, who's going to repeat the lines in a pithier way kind of thing.

730
00:56:23,963 --> 00:56:30,963
And I love that. Let's see. Drivechain is something that puts experimentation back into Bitcoin.

731
00:56:30,963 --> 00:56:48,963
And then, like you said before, you have these, let's say, live test nets for L1 Bitcoin that these immature technologies and ways of doing things could be incorporated later after we have loads and loads of empirical data and experience and whatnot.

732
00:56:48,963 --> 00:56:58,963
But, yeah, so big supporter. And thanks for taking the time to answer questions.

733
00:56:58,963 --> 00:57:01,963
Oh, that's my pleasure.

734
00:57:01,963 --> 00:57:18,962
Are you, if you don't mind, like you said, you just got into Bitcoin a couple of years ago with Paul. Could you share what you were working on before where your headspace was?

735
00:57:18,962 --> 00:57:32,962
Sure. I'd be happy to. So my first experience in crypto came after nine years on Wall Street. I was a compliance focused professional with a law degree working at three different investment management firms.

736
00:57:33,962 --> 00:57:50,962
And then I got really excited about Bitcoin and in crypto generally at the time. And I went to work at a crypto service provider platform, BlockFi. After two years at BlockFi, I had made a lot of friends. I had learned a lot about crypto.

737
00:57:50,962 --> 00:58:12,962
My ideas on crypto had evolved a lot. And I had become at that time obsessed with drivechain and a believer. I had become a believer that Bitcoin had potential to regain 100 percent dominance and fulfill the hopes of those who would like to see Bitcoinization of the monetary system globally.

738
00:58:13,962 --> 00:58:28,962
So. Among various options I had in the crypto space, I chose to go to a Bitcoin only software development firm, LayerTwo Labs, a very innovative and special firm within the Bitcoin space, in my view. And here I am.

739
00:58:28,962 --> 00:58:45,962
So I've had one crypto experience before this, and I reflected and decided to go into a Bitcoin focused company and help it succeed. And they needed someone who could do both a bit of marketing as well as a bit of law.

740
00:58:45,962 --> 00:59:09,962
So I'm thrilled to have this dual hat role as both legal and, you know, a more public kind of facing role of running these Twitter spaces and also helping out with like, you know, I put things to the Reddit and we're planning on having a Discord and we already have a great drivechain talk Telegram group.

741
00:59:10,962 --> 00:59:24,962
And the things that we're doing will just continue to grow and become more and more exciting. There's going to be more and more people involved. It's going to be bigger and bigger. And I'm very excited about it. I'm thrilled to be a part of it.

742
00:59:24,962 --> 00:59:45,962
I don't have like 10 years of experience in crypto. Some people have like all this many years of experience. They know everyone. I'm a fresh face to some extent. And I love to learn about the history, to learn from people like you who have been following it for much longer than I have. And it's valuable to hear your perspectives.

743
00:59:45,962 --> 00:59:57,962
Every person counts. Every bit of conversation in the Bitcoin community is meaningful. People go to meetups. They talk. Things like this spread from one person to another at a time.

744
00:59:59,498 --> 01:00:01,938
It's very emergent, like grassroots.

745
01:00:02,418 --> 01:00:08,058
And then at some point, you know, we have people getting up on stage, who everyone knows, and they're supporting it.

746
01:00:08,058 --> 01:00:11,658
And then it's reached the ultimate level of support.

747
01:00:11,658 --> 01:00:19,578
And then finally it gets over the finish line and we find out whether it can, you know, deliver in reality, not just in testing.

748
01:00:19,578 --> 01:00:22,018
And there's never a perfect certainty in life.

749
01:00:22,057 --> 01:00:23,618
Who knows what the future holds?

750
01:00:23,698 --> 01:00:30,498
I'm very personally much of like a total Kool-Aid drinking believer in this project.

751
01:00:30,578 --> 01:00:34,298
Like, I think about it so much I have trouble falling asleep at night.

752
01:00:35,658 --> 01:00:36,697
I talk about it.

753
01:00:36,938 --> 01:00:39,818
That's good. That means you're doing that means you're doing the right thing.

754
01:00:41,298 --> 01:00:44,578
Yeah. Like I talk about it incessantly to friends and family.

755
01:00:44,978 --> 01:00:57,017
This is a multi-trillion dollar idea in the sense that like blockchain of money is going to become, it's going to re-establish free market money in the world.

756
01:00:57,057 --> 01:01:02,818
Like we went to the era of fiat and we're going to turn it into free market money, digital gold.

757
01:01:02,897 --> 01:01:12,497
Right. But the interesting thing is that what sidechains does is it allows for digital gold to be not the only value proposition of blockchain.

758
01:01:12,497 --> 01:01:22,777
So the notion that it's like this quote, like Bitcoin, not blockchain, which is the title of a famous like Parker Lewis essay blog post.

759
01:01:23,258 --> 01:01:25,497
It's a great essay, but it's just obviously wrong.

760
01:01:26,537 --> 01:01:31,817
Look, at what point are we all going to recognize the truth, which is that it's not just about digital gold.

761
01:01:32,457 --> 01:01:36,338
People want to do all kinds of things on blockchain and even money itself.

762
01:01:36,378 --> 01:01:40,537
As I said earlier, there could be money that's more scalable or that's more private.

763
01:01:41,258 --> 01:01:43,938
So money itself is a heterogeneous category.

764
01:01:44,338 --> 01:01:52,177
For example, Bitcoin, like a layer one Bitcoin transaction doesn't have the exact same guarantees as a lightning transaction.

765
01:01:52,457 --> 01:02:00,618
They're different. Lightning settles instantly and has lower fees, but has a different user experience, has a different trust model.

766
01:02:01,137 --> 01:02:05,978
Right. Like the channels aren't the same thing as like sending Bitcoin on layer one.

767
01:02:06,217 --> 01:02:14,017
So already people are aware that Bitcoin has like different use cases, different models of user experience.

768
01:02:14,778 --> 01:02:25,377
And the truth is that what's what's possible on blockchain is much more expansive, varied than what this narrow concept has.

769
01:02:25,377 --> 01:02:42,817
So I think for Drivechain to succeed, we have to have a revision of narratives in the community towards appreciating the multitudinous applications that are possible in a sustainable and valuable way on blockchain, which is exactly what Satoshi himself said about BitDNS.

770
01:02:43,418 --> 01:02:47,498
He said in the future, all the networks in the world will be merged mine with Bitcoin.

771
01:02:47,537 --> 01:02:51,657
The phrase all the networks in the world refers to many blockchains, not just one.

772
01:02:52,338 --> 01:02:55,338
It refers to maybe a dozen or more.

773
01:02:55,457 --> 01:02:57,177
Like I mean, all the networks in the world.

774
01:02:57,457 --> 01:02:59,858
It sounds like he's referring to a multitude of things.

775
01:03:01,457 --> 01:03:02,457
Go ahead.

776
01:03:02,498 --> 01:03:05,138
I wanted to get your take on this.

777
01:03:05,177 --> 01:03:13,177
I think what happens, just going off of your point about digital gold and how that's limiting.

778
01:03:13,297 --> 01:03:23,737
I think part of what happens is people get boxed in or captured by their the metaphors they're using to try to describe something to people.

779
01:03:24,418 --> 01:03:40,657
And and then they start trying to fit that, like make the technology fit their metaphor, where before they were just trying to translate what this thing is that no one really knows into something, you know, grabbing on to something that

780
01:03:41,377 --> 01:03:44,418
other people understand.

781
01:03:44,418 --> 01:03:52,578
So I think what what's happened a lot in the Bitcoin sphere is that, you know, it's so new and groundbreaking.

782
01:03:52,618 --> 01:03:59,457
It's it's been very, very difficult to describe what it is to people simply.

783
01:03:59,537 --> 01:04:06,537
Right. And kind of give them a coherent, pithy, you know, nice answer.

784
01:04:06,578 --> 01:04:18,057
And digital gold was like the and I agree it was it is and was the like the most tangible, real metaphor that made sense for Bitcoin.

785
01:04:18,537 --> 01:04:35,617
But it got to the point, I'd say, over the last four or five years where people were just completely stuck in that frame and were needlessly standing in front of the technology itself to keep it within that metaphor.

786
01:04:36,617 --> 01:04:38,258
If that if that makes sense.

787
01:04:38,617 --> 01:04:45,978
Right. Like initially, early on, a lot of these a lot of the thoughts you're having were very, very prevalent.

788
01:04:46,377 --> 01:04:49,937
And then all of a sudden they kind of just got whipped away.

789
01:04:49,937 --> 01:04:51,178
And I think part of that happened.

790
01:04:51,537 --> 01:04:56,178
I don't know if this is like a concept, but like metaphor capture or you just have this.

791
01:04:57,337 --> 01:05:01,217
Yeah, you have this new phenomenon and you're searching for things that it's kind of like.

792
01:05:01,738 --> 01:05:11,337
And then once you settle on what it's kind of like, you know, you kind of just sit on that and don't you don't really get to the essence of what this thing is.

793
01:05:11,617 --> 01:05:15,097
And this thing is much more than, quote unquote, digital gold.

794
01:05:16,937 --> 01:05:25,817
And then on your your Parker Lewis con, I they've put out I love the guys on chain and they put up some great.

795
01:05:26,817 --> 01:05:45,537
Something fantastic pieces that I like agree with, it's like I'm there like 95 percent, but they often like Parker's pieces and I've never had the chance to talk to him about it, but I like I don't know how much he knows or doesn't know.

796
01:05:45,578 --> 01:05:59,617
Like he seems to know a lot about 20th century monetary history, but there seems to be a gap where like there's this assumption by Bitcoin is that there's always ever only been like one money at any given time.

797
01:06:00,298 --> 01:06:02,337
Right. And only one form of it.

798
01:06:02,337 --> 01:06:05,057
And like you were saying, money's a very heterogeneous thing.

799
01:06:05,377 --> 01:06:19,057
And I literally can't find a a time in history where there was literally just one thing like everyone used gold, you know, like, yes, people use gold over over time.

800
01:06:19,057 --> 01:06:30,217
But there are a lot of different monetary media, you know, bronze, silver, silk, all types of paper media, just ledgers in general.

801
01:06:30,217 --> 01:06:34,717
So I don't know how that became a thing in the Bitcoin community.

802
01:06:34,777 --> 01:06:38,217
I think those are two things that have really held it back for the narrative.

803
01:06:38,258 --> 01:06:39,858
It's the metaphor capture.

804
01:06:40,258 --> 01:06:51,578
And then thinking that somehow I don't know how this came into people's heads that, you know, there's only one only one thing can win and everything else dies.

805
01:06:51,578 --> 01:06:54,777
And it literally has never happened in history.

806
01:06:54,777 --> 01:07:04,578
And the history of the crypto markets have played out in such a way to show that, like, no, the the market usually likes a few different options.

807
01:07:05,458 --> 01:07:07,057
And there are power laws at work.

808
01:07:07,057 --> 01:07:18,377
That's I think people are confusing power laws for like winner take all, you know, and those are very different things.

809
01:07:18,418 --> 01:07:20,377
You hardly ever see winner take all in anything.

810
01:07:20,377 --> 01:07:22,337
It's usually some type of power law.

811
01:07:22,377 --> 01:07:27,377
Like you don't see true equality and you don't see just winner take all completely.

812
01:07:27,377 --> 01:07:38,698
It's usually like, all right, you have a few winners and then like a really long tail of, let's say, moderate winners to, let's say, you know, barely winning or losing.

813
01:07:38,978 --> 01:07:48,057
But I guess my two key points is like this notion that it's inevitable and there's only one that one money that everyone just converges on.

814
01:07:48,057 --> 01:07:54,337
And then the metaphor capture of like, all right, we're trying to explain this thing and we're going to settle on this.

815
01:07:54,337 --> 01:07:57,377
And then people that yeah.

816
01:07:57,377 --> 01:08:04,258
And then it just becomes a thing where you're trying to fit the the new thing into an old box.

817
01:08:04,698 --> 01:08:05,817
It just doesn't make sense.

818
01:08:08,698 --> 01:08:12,178
I agree so much with the spirit of everything you just said.

819
01:08:12,738 --> 01:08:17,657
I'd like to give you my spin on some of the things in case you find it interesting.

820
01:08:18,018 --> 01:08:21,817
So I do believe there will be one money in the world in the following sense.

821
01:08:22,178 --> 01:08:24,057
I think there will be one unit of account.

822
01:08:24,537 --> 01:08:35,218
So it's possible for Bitcoin through drivechain to offer varied models of privacy, scalability and security.

823
01:08:36,098 --> 01:08:43,338
However, among the drivechains and the layer one, the unit of account would still be Bitcoin.

824
01:08:43,977 --> 01:08:57,977
So the phrase I like to use, I'm not sure if this phrase is used among other drivechain proponents, is the term synthetic Bitcoin to refer to the unit of account on the drivechains.

825
01:08:58,658 --> 01:09:06,258
So as you understand, you have Bitcoin on layer one, you send it into the two way peg, you get the drivechain token.

826
01:09:06,297 --> 01:09:08,417
It's a synthetic Bitcoin, meaning.

827
01:09:09,578 --> 01:09:25,098
That it is approximately exactly the same value of a Bitcoin on the market because it's redeemable for Bitcoin through the two way peg, but it has a different software feature set.

828
01:09:25,778 --> 01:09:35,297
So it might have the software features of Zcash, but it has a unit of account that's almost identical to Bitcoin in terms of like.

829
01:09:36,977 --> 01:09:41,218
Because you can exchange it for layer one Bitcoin, it's going to trade one for one with Bitcoin.

830
01:09:41,578 --> 01:09:46,617
So when we say that there'll be one money in the future because of network effects, I think we're right.

831
01:09:47,057 --> 01:09:59,218
So the Bitcoiners are right about how there'll be one money in the future insofar as the world achieves a reduction in political jurisdiction friction.

832
01:09:59,258 --> 01:10:04,018
And instead, there's like one money, like if the whole world were free market, there would be only one money.

833
01:10:04,497 --> 01:10:07,898
But would that unit of account be a fiat money?

834
01:10:07,937 --> 01:10:11,778
I don't think so because of the trust model of inflation being a risk.

835
01:10:12,098 --> 01:10:23,817
So with Bitcoin, there's stability, the monetary policy, and therefore I think it would be the unit of account being non-inflationary, non-deflationary either.

836
01:10:23,817 --> 01:10:29,458
It's just in the sense of deflation I prefer, which is that there is a fixed quantity.

837
01:10:29,538 --> 01:10:36,578
Some can be lost, but you can't like create more of it outside of the algorithmic programmatic inflation schedule.

838
01:10:37,138 --> 01:10:41,578
And if any is lost, that doesn't harm anybody else who doesn't lose their Bitcoin.

839
01:10:41,578 --> 01:10:50,977
So the circulating supply has an extremely predictable model of distribution and quantity.

840
01:10:51,338 --> 01:11:05,417
And what I'm trying to say here is that on the one hand, you totally grok what I said about multitudes of features and like people wanting to convert it into a more scalable or more private or more expressive in terms of the code format.

841
01:11:05,458 --> 01:11:07,018
So that's what drivechain effectuates.

842
01:11:07,057 --> 01:11:10,297
But the native token on the drivechain is a synthetic Bitcoin.

843
01:11:10,338 --> 01:11:37,018
And for that reason, it increases Bitcoin's network effect because there people will probably refer to the Bitcoin on the sidechain as like as like a synthetic Bitcoin in the same way that people know that like, you know, a certificate for gold, you know, trades at roughly the same value as gold, depending on whether the issuer is reliable.

844
01:11:37,417 --> 01:11:45,098
When the Bitcoin miners are the issuer or the controller, rather of the drivechain tokens, it's trustless is going to get right.

845
01:11:45,138 --> 01:11:48,778
There's no body that's probably more trustworthy than them.

846
01:11:48,977 --> 01:11:52,338
Right. There's billions of dollars at stake and that'll only get bigger.

847
01:11:52,377 --> 01:11:53,778
There's a massive profit motive.

848
01:11:53,817 --> 01:11:55,057
There's miners all over the world.

849
01:11:55,817 --> 01:12:06,578
And so my point is that I didn't I didn't want you to go down that path because it sounded like you were saying there is going to be a multi coin, multi money feature.

850
01:12:06,617 --> 01:12:08,617
I think there's only one money in the future.

851
01:12:09,138 --> 01:12:21,578
And with drivechain, it's likely in my expectation that it'll be Bitcoin and people will have the one Bitcoin if that's the price of something like like, for example, suppose you want to buy something.

852
01:12:22,737 --> 01:12:35,458
In a market where the things are very low cost, so you're buying something where people want to trade in that marketplace with a very scalable Bitcoin, like a Bitcoin Cash type of scalability, larger blocks.

853
01:12:36,578 --> 01:12:42,138
That marketplace would have all of its prices and would say this costs five, you know.

854
01:12:44,937 --> 01:12:57,018
This costs five tokens, but the unit of account is going to be the drivechain token for the large block drivechain, but all you have to do is convert your Bitcoin into that.

855
01:12:58,538 --> 01:13:02,977
Into that version of Bitcoin, that synthetic Bitcoin with more scalability and then buy the stuff you want.

856
01:13:03,417 --> 01:13:13,258
If it's low, if it's like, you know, a small amount, people would use like a very scalable drivechain token, but then they can easily convert back to layer one Bitcoin if they wanted to.

857
01:13:13,737 --> 01:13:19,617
So they're still going to be thinking of Bitcoin terms like unit of account, like one Bitcoin.

858
01:13:19,617 --> 01:13:22,138
So that unit of account network effect will be very large.

859
01:13:22,937 --> 01:13:32,817
I like that nuance of breaking down, like basically Bitcoin, the long game.

860
01:13:32,817 --> 01:13:39,377
And I do agree as it becoming the sole kind of dominant unit of account, most reliable.

861
01:13:39,417 --> 01:13:44,617
Right. Once you have that, especially once you have that 21 million limit reached.

862
01:13:44,698 --> 01:13:47,458
Right. You have a what is it called?

863
01:13:49,817 --> 01:14:04,617
Something that doesn't change a constant rate and constants are extremely important, you know, to build any type of like strong edifice, either scientifically or philosophically, economically.

864
01:14:04,977 --> 01:14:06,417
So I do agree on that point.

865
01:14:06,698 --> 01:14:14,377
I guess my point was like there's lots of different, let's say, means of payments.

866
01:14:14,578 --> 01:14:16,937
Right. And different stores of value out there.

867
01:14:17,458 --> 01:14:31,658
And and that not not that my multi, I guess the vision that I'm bringing up is that my multi coin future isn't a like there's a thousand crypto currencies that are actually used as currencies.

868
01:14:31,658 --> 01:14:46,617
But just just my like reading of the historical record, it's it's we shouldn't be surprised that there are two or three dominant, you know, global means of payment.

869
01:14:47,018 --> 01:14:48,898
Right. Or something of that effect.

870
01:14:48,898 --> 01:14:56,458
But I do I do agree with your nuance of like something becoming the the standard for for measurement.

871
01:14:56,658 --> 01:15:01,258
And then I guess what was the other point I was going to bring up?

872
01:15:02,658 --> 01:15:04,497
So network effects.

873
01:15:05,538 --> 01:15:22,377
So, you know, I don't think anyone disagrees with the the power of network effects, but what does shave away at that and what crypto really shaves away at in terms of network effects is through like really on demand swaps.

874
01:15:22,698 --> 01:15:35,057
Right. Being able to swap in and out of any any asset around the world really like eats away at any type of like advantage that networks network effects have.

875
01:15:35,138 --> 01:15:48,177
So that's what I think ultimately will like takes away from the overarching like complete Bitcoin dominance is just like being able to move on is extremely easy.

876
01:15:48,218 --> 01:15:51,817
Right. It's it's it's not it's it's very hard to lock someone into it.

877
01:15:53,338 --> 01:15:57,737
And then, yeah, I guess that was the only I guess nuance I wanted to add to that.

878
01:15:58,937 --> 01:16:05,857
I see the low switching costs as not a barrier to network effect hegemony, but instead the opposite.

879
01:16:06,138 --> 01:16:08,898
If people can easily switch, they'll switch to the best thing.

880
01:16:08,898 --> 01:16:38,177
But I but my my point is this like the the I don't know, the the will to like that's a stranger valuation is very strong, you know, people there's always going to be a group that wants to go against the status quo, you know, like I don't I don't see this like pure I do see Bitcoin dominance being, you know, being or Bitcoin being dominant, you know,

881
01:16:38,937 --> 01:16:42,578
into the like, you know, next couple of decades, century, whatnot.

882
01:16:42,617 --> 01:16:53,698
But even if drivechain is instituted, which I think it should be, there's still going to be demand for alternative like monies, economic systems and means of payment.

883
01:16:54,098 --> 01:17:06,298
And the switching costs being so low and so frictionless make that, yeah, the plausibility of like complete Bitcoinization are a pipe dream.

884
01:17:06,377 --> 01:17:12,377
I do think dominating the power law is within the realm of possibilities, especially with something like drivechain.

885
01:17:13,337 --> 01:17:15,658
But, you know, I could be wrong in that.

886
01:17:15,658 --> 01:17:23,097
It just like from what I've seen in crypto and then over time, like switching costs are a big deal to like alleviating lock in.

887
01:17:23,097 --> 01:17:26,457
And like you were saying, you know, we think that Bitcoin is the best.

888
01:17:26,457 --> 01:17:40,377
But, you know, there's very passionate, smart people, you know, either in fiat or, you know, Ethereum or whatnot that will, you know, they're just oriented different and value different things.

889
01:17:41,497 --> 01:17:45,737
I used to be more in your camp, but I've become a little more.

890
01:17:48,818 --> 01:17:51,857
Yeah, less confident in that, like pronounce.

891
01:17:52,418 --> 01:17:52,977
Maybe you're right.

892
01:17:53,617 --> 01:17:55,857
So I understand what you're saying, I think.

893
01:17:56,418 --> 01:18:02,018
But imagine there's a privacy coin that has a market cap of one billion.

894
01:18:02,898 --> 01:18:18,818
And imagine that drivechain is adopted and one percent of Bitcoiners send their Bitcoin into the drivechain, which has a clone of the software that exists in the altcoin.

895
01:18:19,377 --> 01:18:31,857
What we would have at that moment is a four billion dollar drivechain version of the exact same software that's in the altcoin, which has a market cap of one billion in our hypothetical.

896
01:18:32,497 --> 01:18:36,818
Now, imagine you're a user who's trying to decide, should I?

897
01:18:37,938 --> 01:18:44,658
If I'm going to open up a business, should I support this altcoin, should I try to have people pay me in the altcoin?

898
01:18:45,217 --> 01:18:55,058
Or should I try to have people pay me in the drivechain version, which has identical software, it's just as private, but it has a four billion dollar market cap instead of a one billion.

899
01:18:55,617 --> 01:19:05,938
So we can assume that in this hypothetical, let's just assume that the fee rate on the altcoin is one fourth the fee rate on the drivechain.

900
01:19:06,258 --> 01:19:14,497
So the security in terms of the finality of transactions is greater on the drivechain version.

901
01:19:14,497 --> 01:19:16,497
The privacy is identically good.

902
01:19:16,497 --> 01:19:23,217
And the drivechain version has a unit of account, which is a synthetic Bitcoin.

903
01:19:23,217 --> 01:19:34,178
So you're pricing things effectively in Bitcoin, economically speaking, because the drivechain unit of account is a synthetic Bitcoin redeemable for Bitcoin.

904
01:19:34,497 --> 01:19:40,737
So in various ways, the drivechain version is strictly better from a user experience.

905
01:19:40,737 --> 01:19:54,737
So the only reason someone would prefer the altcoin is if they have a sentimental attachment to it, a non-economic preference for the altcoin over using the drivechain version.

906
01:19:54,997 --> 01:20:04,157
So if they choose the altcoin version, they're going to have they're going to be using a token which has a free floating exchange rate relative to Bitcoin's value.

907
01:20:04,797 --> 01:20:07,877
That exchange rate could be worse over time.

908
01:20:08,317 --> 01:20:15,117
There could be a fall in the in the real purchasing power of that altcoin relative to its.

909
01:20:16,117 --> 01:20:26,477
Clone, which is the drivechain version that uses a synthetic Bitcoin with Bitcoin's unparalleled assurance of purchasing power.

910
01:20:26,477 --> 01:20:39,077
Now, of course, Bitcoin can decline in real terms, but everyone kind of knows today that the chances that Bitcoin goes to zero are probably lower than any other crypto asset.

911
01:20:39,197 --> 01:20:46,636
And certainly they're lower than something that has less than one hundredth the value of Bitcoin.

912
01:20:46,956 --> 01:20:49,717
Bitcoin right now is like roughly half a trillion dollars.

913
01:20:50,276 --> 01:20:58,237
In our hypothetical, the altcoin had a one billion dollar valuation, which is a reasonable assumption.

914
01:20:58,636 --> 01:21:02,357
I mean, a reasonable hypothetical, because we're talking about a privacy coin.

915
01:21:02,997 --> 01:21:04,836
They have value of like one to three billion.

916
01:21:04,876 --> 01:21:09,677
Last time I checked, like Monero and Zcash, they're like each one or two billion dollars.

917
01:21:09,677 --> 01:21:11,397
Roughly, that looks like a month ago.

918
01:21:11,916 --> 01:21:16,437
So in our hypothetical, Maverick, you were saying maybe the future is multi coined.

919
01:21:16,956 --> 01:21:20,437
Maybe people will just launch other things and do other things for different reasons.

920
01:21:20,437 --> 01:21:23,916
But I'm telling you, people are motivated very much by profit.

921
01:21:23,916 --> 01:21:25,077
That's why they all go to work.

922
01:21:25,236 --> 01:21:26,397
They want profit.

923
01:21:26,916 --> 01:21:28,276
Right. Most people have a job.

924
01:21:28,717 --> 01:21:29,956
They care about economics.

925
01:21:30,357 --> 01:21:34,157
They care about not losing money, not losing value, not wasting their time.

926
01:21:34,157 --> 01:21:36,797
These are all economic inspirations.

927
01:21:36,797 --> 01:21:43,276
People will, for these same reasons, prefer the drivechain token, which is a clone of the software on the altcoin.

928
01:21:43,317 --> 01:21:51,956
So they have identical privacy guarantees, except that in our hypothetical, the drivechain version has one percent of Bitcoin's market cap.

929
01:21:51,997 --> 01:21:53,117
So it's four billion.

930
01:21:53,117 --> 01:21:58,516
So it's bigger and therefore better in terms of security and stability of purchasing power.

931
01:21:58,997 --> 01:22:01,876
It's just better. There's not going to be any privacy coins.

932
01:22:02,157 --> 01:22:21,116
Maybe if drivechains adopted and the drivechain privacy drivechain is successful, it could have like it could just it could just magnetize all the users out of the altcoins because they're going to be smaller than the drivechain version because it's going to have Bitcoin's unit of account, which is stable.

933
01:22:21,357 --> 01:22:24,877
People want that stability, especially the privacy people.

934
01:22:24,877 --> 01:22:28,157
I think I just suspect they're not trying to speculate.

935
01:22:28,157 --> 01:22:30,116
They're trying to have anonymous transactions.

936
01:22:30,116 --> 01:22:32,797
They really care about privacy so much.

937
01:22:33,476 --> 01:22:41,317
But once they're one thing they want, the best of both worlds, they want Bitcoin's unit of account with their privacy software.

938
01:22:41,717 --> 01:22:43,276
And that's what drivechain gives you.

939
01:22:43,317 --> 01:22:48,116
It gives you the economics of Bitcoin with the software features of the altcoin.

940
01:22:48,517 --> 01:22:50,597
So that's like the best of all worlds.

941
01:22:51,797 --> 01:22:52,836
I agree.

942
01:22:52,836 --> 01:22:54,997
I like the privacy angle, another angle.

943
01:22:55,036 --> 01:23:01,517
And I don't know. Yeah, maybe you guys have talked about this in another space.

944
01:23:01,517 --> 01:23:13,396
But from what I know about, let's say, global reserve currencies over the last couple hundred years, like pretty much all of them, you know, they were issued by countries.

945
01:23:13,396 --> 01:23:23,517
But what made a lot of them or part of what makes them powerful in their use case powerful is that they were used in capital formation and debt and like equity markets.

946
01:23:23,756 --> 01:23:29,597
And I think Bitcoin is missed out on that and something that Ethereum has kind of done in like a pseudo way.

947
01:23:29,597 --> 01:23:52,396
But it would be cool to have some type of, I don't know how possible this is, but some type of drivechain with some type of security token focus where, you know, companies or, you know, even individuals or organizations can have some type of, let's say, Bitcoin native platform to

948
01:23:54,157 --> 01:24:00,797
you know, issue debt, issue equity and do it on Bitcoin rails.

949
01:24:00,797 --> 01:24:06,717
And even with, you know, maybe a synthetic Bitcoin or even Bitcoin itself.

950
01:24:07,556 --> 01:24:23,157
I don't know if that has come up at all, but I think that's something that Bitcoin is missing and that almost every other global reserve currency has had, you know, like the Dutch, the British, the U.S.

951
01:24:23,157 --> 01:24:42,356
all had very, very deep liquid capital markets that, you know, you had to you had to use the USD or the pound or the Dutch counterpart as, you know, a method of payment or a method of allocating capital.

952
01:24:42,356 --> 01:24:53,276
Well, the largest drivechain of the future might be the ETH side, which is a clone of Ethereum.

953
01:24:53,276 --> 01:25:06,116
And the reason why I say might is that we don't want to commit the sin of illogical reasoning where we assume that if we change one variable, everything else stays the same.

954
01:25:06,317 --> 01:25:21,116
Right. The world is extremely complicated and there's no way to project into the future that simply because the largest altcoin today is Ethereum, therefore the largest drivechain would be a clone of Ethereum.

955
01:25:21,556 --> 01:25:28,116
However, it's not unreasonable to expect that that is a possibility in the future.

956
01:25:28,116 --> 01:25:43,116
So what you're talking about is like blockchain based securities, blockchain based debt, other other arrangements that involve an expressive like software platform.

957
01:25:43,116 --> 01:25:46,116
So that would be perhaps like the Ethereum drivechain.

958
01:25:46,116 --> 01:25:48,116
So, yeah, that's one of the ones.

959
01:25:48,116 --> 01:25:51,116
Yeah, I didn't know. I didn't know you made that.

960
01:25:51,116 --> 01:25:56,116
Is that like, is there a testnet for that already?

961
01:25:56,116 --> 01:25:57,116
Oh, wow.

962
01:25:57,116 --> 01:25:59,116
It's up and running.

963
01:26:04,116 --> 01:26:08,116
Yeah, so the testnet currently has Zcash clone.

964
01:26:08,116 --> 01:26:19,116
And I'm not sure, but I think they like removed the like developer tax that like is paid to like like they cloned it, but I'm not sure.

965
01:26:19,116 --> 01:26:31,116
Maybe I should actually just figure out that exactly because I'm still getting up to speed on some of these particular drivechain implementations in the testnet and their exact specifics.

966
01:26:31,116 --> 01:26:40,116
But, yeah, there's the Zcash and there's also the ETH side and they're up and running and people can like use them and interact with them and build on them.

967
01:26:40,116 --> 01:26:43,116
To my understanding, you're probably more technical than I am.

968
01:26:43,116 --> 01:26:45,116
So you can like get into that.

969
01:26:45,116 --> 01:26:47,116
And then next time we chat, you can teach me about it.

970
01:26:47,116 --> 01:26:52,116
I assure you, I assure you I'm not. We're probably on the same level.

971
01:26:55,116 --> 01:27:02,116
But yeah, I mean, the main idea is that like maybe in the future, there'll be just no altcoins and everyone will just use drivechains.

972
01:27:02,116 --> 01:27:07,116
I know it sounds like a dream, right? But sometimes such things can occur.

973
01:27:07,116 --> 01:27:30,116
And the reason why they would occur is not because of just arbitrary future circumstances, but rather the market forces that I described earlier, such as people's preference to use software not available on Bitcoin layer one, but to still enjoy the use of a synthetic Bitcoin from an economic user experience standpoint.

974
01:27:30,116 --> 01:27:33,116
So that's the genius of drivechain is it gives you Bitcoin's economics.

975
01:27:34,116 --> 01:27:43,116
In other words, one way of putting it that's kind of cool is it maintains the supply cap of 21 million while unlocking infinite variation of software.

976
01:27:43,116 --> 01:27:56,116
So the way that it maintains the supply cap of 21 million, or we could say it this way, it maintains Bitcoin's quantity, but increases the quality possibilities for Bitcoin, different quality.

977
01:27:57,116 --> 01:28:06,116
So when you go into a drivechain, the issuance of the drivechain tokens is limited strictly to the collection of Bitcoin in the hash rate escrow.

978
01:28:08,116 --> 01:28:17,116
And when I talk about like the limited issuance of the drivechain tokens, I'm talking about the native currency, the essential synthetic Bitcoin.

979
01:28:17,116 --> 01:28:30,116
There, of course, could be security tokens like you talked about on such a thing as ETH side, but on some drivechains like a privacy drivechain, there would probably just be the synthetic Bitcoin that has the Zcash features.

980
01:28:31,116 --> 01:28:45,116
And the cool thing is that the issuance of the drivechain token is limited to the collection of Bitcoin in the hash rate escrow such that the circulating supply of Bitcoin is maintained at 21 million.

981
01:28:45,116 --> 01:28:55,116
In other words, there's like, let's say, just to make it very simple, let's just say in a hypothetical future state, there's 21 million Bitcoin that have been issued.

982
01:28:56,116 --> 01:29:04,116
One million have been sent to a particular hash rate escrow, causing there to be one million units of synthetic Bitcoin on the drivechain.

983
01:29:04,116 --> 01:29:14,116
And then when the users are finished using the drivechain, they send those one million units back to layer one Bitcoin, and then there's no more units on the drivechain.

984
01:29:15,116 --> 01:29:19,116
And now the circulating supply is the same, 21 million, but they're all on layer one again.

985
01:29:20,116 --> 01:29:27,116
So that's how it works is like I'm considering layer one Bitcoin in a hash rate escrow to not be quote unquote circulating.

986
01:29:27,116 --> 01:29:38,116
And I feel like that's a reasonable claim to make because that description, it correctly assumes that they're not being spent on goods and services because they're in the hash rate escrow.

987
01:29:39,116 --> 01:29:46,116
So they're participating in this feature that is part of the whole design.

988
01:29:46,116 --> 01:29:47,116
So that's how I see it.

989
01:29:47,116 --> 01:29:58,116
And that's something Paul or someone wrote, which is that drivechain is about maintaining the supply cap, but increasing the quality, the qualities that Bitcoin can have.

990
01:29:59,116 --> 01:30:03,116
And this is something Greg Maxwell, I think, celebrated like years ago in some talk in 2015.

991
01:30:03,116 --> 01:30:19,116
He talked about the trustless two way peg being the future development that would enhance the potential for Bitcoin to have more experimental capabilities, innovation, value accrual to the blockchain.

992
01:30:19,116 --> 01:30:21,116
And that's what Liquid has been.

993
01:30:21,116 --> 01:30:27,116
It's been a great effort to have the best sidechain possible at the time.

994
01:30:27,116 --> 01:30:38,116
And I think the next step forward for these sidechain enthusiasts would be drivechain, which I think would elevate everyone in the space, including those who have worked on Liquid and RSK and other sidechains.

995
01:30:38,116 --> 01:30:54,116
It would give all these developers and users a stronger system to use and they would see much greater use and they would be able to develop technologies that would bring them a lot of success in terms of seeing their ideas fulfilled on Bitcoin rather than an altcoin.

996
01:30:57,116 --> 01:31:00,116
Agreed. Thanks for taking the time to answer all my questions.

997
01:31:00,116 --> 01:31:12,116
I guess the last one is, does Layer 2 have a physical, if you're able to docks, do you guys have a physical location or are you guys a virtual team kind of all over the place?

998
01:31:12,116 --> 01:31:17,116
That's right. I got to hang out after this. Virtual?

999
01:31:17,116 --> 01:31:26,116
Virtual, yeah. I mean, I live in Los Angeles. I'm not there right now, but it's a virtual team and some people are on the East Coast.

1000
01:31:26,116 --> 01:31:27,116
Part of LA.

1001
01:31:27,116 --> 01:31:29,116
Some people are elsewhere.

1002
01:31:29,116 --> 01:31:33,116
Docksing is your location. You don't have to give me the exact address.

1003
01:31:33,116 --> 01:31:36,116
I live in central LA.

1004
01:31:36,116 --> 01:31:40,116
Okay. Near Los Feliz?

1005
01:31:40,116 --> 01:31:44,116
I mean, if you're in LA area, I would love to meet you for coffee. You could DM me.

1006
01:31:44,116 --> 01:32:03,116
I'm not. I've spent a lot of time there. I used to live in San Diego for a while. But yeah, I've been to LA a lot and will probably be there. I'll hit you up next time I am in town. That'd be great.

1007
01:32:04,116 --> 01:32:18,116
Yeah, just send me a DM and we'll be in touch. Absolutely. I'd love to meet anyone, chat, hang out, and especially if someone is as interested and well-spoken as you, it'd be great to know who you are.

1008
01:32:18,116 --> 01:32:24,116
Same here. Thanks for the time and we'll talk later. I got to get going.

1009
01:32:24,116 --> 01:32:29,116
Let me just say, you've been great. Please come back in the future if you'd like. I'd love to talk more with you.

1010
01:32:29,116 --> 01:32:31,116
Cool. Will do. Thank you.

1011
01:32:31,116 --> 01:32:52,116
All right. So this has been Drivechain Twitter Spaces and we've been going for an hour and a half today. I think that we'll wrap now since we went for six hours last time and it was pretty awesome and exhausting at the same time.

1012
01:32:53,116 --> 01:33:04,116
So today, before someone joins and brings in a massive greater crowd than what we've had, I'd like to thank our ardent listeners for listening to every little detail.

1013
01:33:05,116 --> 01:33:15,116
This Spaces has obviously been at a different time than what we usually have. In the past few weeks we've been doing Mondays and Thursdays in the morning on West Coast Time.

1014
01:33:15,116 --> 01:33:24,116
And now I think we're going to do Mondays in the morning and Thursdays it'll be in the evening, West Coast Time, like today.

1015
01:33:24,116 --> 01:33:35,116
That's what we did today and maybe that variation will bring in a different set of listeners. And of course these Spaces will continue to be recorded as they have been today so people can listen on demand at their convenience.

1016
01:33:35,116 --> 01:33:43,116
We are planning to put the recordings onto a podcast so people can listen to a podcasting app like SoundCloud or Spotify.

1017
01:33:43,116 --> 01:33:48,116
That's something I need to work on so I have to figure out how to do that.

1018
01:33:49,116 --> 01:34:00,116
So yeah, I have lots of things to do. Thank you everyone who's listened and who will listen. Thanks so much to our awesome speaker Maverick and I'll see you all on Monday.

1019
01:34:00,116 --> 01:34:10,116
Until then, please continue to read about Drivechain on the various websites that are available like drivechain.info, join the Telegram group.

1020
01:34:10,116 --> 01:34:15,116
We have over 700 people in the Drivechain Telegram group. It's growing every day.

1021
01:34:15,116 --> 01:34:25,116
It's awesome to see. There's also a Reddit and there's other places where you can get involved like the GitHub for example.

1022
01:34:25,116 --> 01:34:31,116
You can of course read the bits there and learn about all that.

1023
01:34:31,116 --> 01:34:35,116
See you next time everybody. Thanks for listening.