1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:12,800
Crypto na na, exit liquidity, ho. Do na na, dump it all.

2
00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:36,400
Crypto na na, exit liquidity, ho. Do na na, dump it all.

3
00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:46,400
Crypto na na, exit liquidity, ho. Do na na, dump it all.

4
00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:52,000
From the day we arrive on the blockchain and blinking step into the trade,

5
00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:58,200
there's more to lose than can ever be won, more to dump than can ever be saved.

6
00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:03,900
Influencers, tweets and the noobs all follow, buying high selling low at a game.

7
00:01:03,900 --> 00:01:08,300
But the boomers know and sailor he knows that the dump is coming.

8
00:01:08,300 --> 00:01:22,500
It's all the same. It's the circle of exit liquidity.

9
00:01:22,500 --> 00:01:28,200
And it moves us all through despair and hope,

10
00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:44,200
through faith and FOMO till we find our place on the path unwinding in the circle,

11
00:01:44,200 --> 00:02:02,800
the circle of exit liquidity.

12
00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:08,300
Some of us fall by the wayside and some of us soar to the stars,

13
00:02:08,300 --> 00:02:14,000
but the influencers always win with the Lambos and their cars.

14
00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:23,500
So beware of the pump and the inevitable dump for the cycle continues and the noobs
get wrecked.

15
00:02:23,500 --> 00:02:34,400
Crypto na na, exit liquidity, ho. Do na na, dump it all.

16
00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:57,300
Crypto na na, exit liquidity, ha. Do na na, dump it all.

17
00:02:57,300 --> 00:03:07,300
Crypto na na, exit liquidity, ha. Do na na, dump it all.

18
00:03:07,300 --> 00:03:17,800
It's the circle of exit liquidity.

19
00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:23,300
And it moves us all through despair and hope,

20
00:03:23,300 --> 00:03:35,300
through faith and FOMO till we find our place on the path unwinding in the circle,

21
00:03:35,300 --> 00:04:04,300
the circle of exit liquidity.

22
00:04:04,300 --> 00:04:14,300
Crypto na na, exit liquidity, ho. Do na na, dump it all.

23
00:04:14,300 --> 00:04:24,300
Crypto na na, exit liquidity, ha. Do na na, dump it all.

24
00:04:25,300 --> 00:04:28,300
Have you been today? It's been a heavy media day for you, right?

25
00:04:28,300 --> 00:04:30,300
It has.

26
00:04:30,300 --> 00:04:37,300
Out of curiosity, how many shows have you done today?

27
00:04:37,300 --> 00:04:43,300
How many have you done so far and how many will you do?

28
00:04:43,300 --> 00:04:52,300
Well, I would always accept any podcast invitation, no matter how hostile.

29
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So I'll probably do as many as people want to hear what I have to say.

30
00:04:57,300 --> 00:05:00,300
I'll keep doing them, I suppose.

31
00:05:00,300 --> 00:05:05,300
I pre-recorded, I think, four, right?

32
00:05:05,300 --> 00:05:10,300
And then today I did three, but they were pretty long.

33
00:05:10,300 --> 00:05:12,300
I think this one will be pretty long.

34
00:05:12,300 --> 00:05:15,300
Yeah, I mean, at least an hour or so.

35
00:05:15,300 --> 00:05:18,300
I mean, it could be more than that. We'll see.

36
00:05:18,300 --> 00:05:20,300
However long it actually ends up being.

37
00:05:20,300 --> 00:05:23,300
I have to say, I'm no Vlad Kostya.

38
00:05:23,300 --> 00:05:26,300
I'm not one of those eight-hour podcast people.

39
00:05:26,300 --> 00:05:33,300
I could, but I kind of feel like a lot of that is not a good use of time to go eight
hours.

40
00:05:33,300 --> 00:05:38,300
And then do people really listen to the whole thing? That's a big ask.

41
00:05:38,300 --> 00:05:39,300
I don't know.

42
00:05:39,300 --> 00:05:40,300
Yes.

43
00:05:40,300 --> 00:05:42,300
They're used to just tuning out sometimes.

44
00:05:42,300 --> 00:05:44,300
Yes, of course.

45
00:05:44,300 --> 00:05:48,300
I mean, it's a great bragging rights thing or bladder things.

46
00:05:48,300 --> 00:05:52,300
I am pretty sure I've gone eight hours without going to the bathroom before.

47
00:05:52,300 --> 00:06:00,300
But I have done five hours straight of podcasts, but one after another, several
times in the last year.

48
00:06:00,300 --> 00:06:04,300
But is it for a reason?

49
00:06:04,300 --> 00:06:11,300
I have to say, before I continue, I am not shitting on Vlad.

50
00:06:11,300 --> 00:06:13,300
I think he's a great dude and he has a compelling podcast.

51
00:06:13,300 --> 00:06:22,300
I'm just riffing off the concept of pushing the endurance sport of the podcasting
because it's sort of like the communist labor theory of value.

52
00:06:22,300 --> 00:06:31,300
Are you doing it because you really have so much content or are you doing it just
because you want to say that you've done it?

53
00:06:31,300 --> 00:06:33,300
Yes.

54
00:06:33,300 --> 00:06:40,300
I think it's more of a let it run eight hours rather than push it to eight hours.

55
00:06:41,300 --> 00:06:44,300
So it's kind of an interesting thing.

56
00:06:44,300 --> 00:06:52,300
But, yeah, I mean, short form, long form, I'm not succinct enough to do really short
form.

57
00:06:52,300 --> 00:07:02,300
It's funny because I'm kind of at the ends of the spectrum where most of my shows
are 60 to 90 minutes plus.

58
00:07:02,300 --> 00:07:06,300
So it's like 60, 90, 120 minutes, something like that.

59
00:07:07,300 --> 00:07:11,300
Sometimes longer. I've done two and a half to three hour shows before.

60
00:07:11,300 --> 00:07:14,300
I do typically three hour spaces every week.

61
00:07:14,300 --> 00:07:20,300
But then also I do sometimes 60 second to three minute videos.

62
00:07:20,300 --> 00:07:24,300
I did some like rant video a couple of days ago that was like three minutes.

63
00:07:24,300 --> 00:07:25,300
It was very popular.

64
00:07:25,300 --> 00:07:33,300
But just like the five minute, 10 minute, 20 minute, up to 30 minute, that's not
really a zone I exist in a lot.

65
00:07:34,300 --> 00:07:47,300
I think that some people like the nine hour podcast because it's really, really hard
to put up like an act or fake something for that long.

66
00:07:47,300 --> 00:07:51,300
So it's kind of like stress testing a CPU or something.

67
00:07:51,300 --> 00:07:59,300
It's like, OK, you're going to get a picture of who this person is that you wouldn't
get in little sound bites.

68
00:07:59,300 --> 00:08:06,300
I sort of feel like you have to push it past 60 minutes to get people's guards down
sort of or get their defenses down.

69
00:08:06,300 --> 00:08:08,300
I sort of feel like 90.

70
00:08:08,300 --> 00:08:20,300
Like if I were to pick a sweet spot to do all podcasts, I would probably pick 90
minutes because you kind of get the last 30 minutes are like you can't maintain the
facade.

71
00:08:21,300 --> 00:08:23,300
I could stretch a facade for an hour probably.

72
00:08:23,300 --> 00:08:26,300
Not that I would, but it's just after that.

73
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I kind of feel like you get that.

74
00:08:28,300 --> 00:08:33,300
But then if you always do two hour shows, sometimes they might get boring.

75
00:08:33,300 --> 00:08:34,300
Right.

76
00:08:34,300 --> 00:08:36,300
I definitely think, you know, yeah, you do 60 minutes.

77
00:08:36,300 --> 00:08:38,300
Well, you're also, you know, 60 minutes you have.

78
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Now you have a shared experience with someone else.

79
00:08:42,300 --> 00:08:45,300
It's a little bit more complex.

80
00:08:45,300 --> 00:08:46,300
Well, fun stuff.

81
00:08:46,300 --> 00:08:51,300
Well, let's roll the, what is it, 20 second intro thing and then we'll get right
into it.

82
00:08:51,300 --> 00:08:52,300
All right, let's do it.

83
00:08:52,300 --> 00:08:53,300
All right.

84
00:08:53,300 --> 00:08:54,300
3, 2, 1, go.

85
00:09:04,300 --> 00:09:05,300
So, hey, everyone.

86
00:09:05,300 --> 00:09:15,300
Welcome officially now to the Digital Cash Rundown episode 225, which means I've
been doing this over 225 weeks in a row, probably since mid 2020.

87
00:09:15,300 --> 00:09:19,300
And I'm joined by the one and only, at least that I know of, Paul Sztorc.

88
00:09:19,300 --> 00:09:20,300
How's it going, man?

89
00:09:20,300 --> 00:09:21,300
It's going good.

90
00:09:21,300 --> 00:09:22,300
Thanks for having me.

91
00:09:22,300 --> 00:09:23,300
Yeah, absolutely.

92
00:09:23,300 --> 00:09:24,300
Happy to have you on.

93
00:09:25,300 --> 00:09:36,300
You've been on kind of the more interviewee segment version before talking about
kind of the core thesis that goes that we're going into in more of like a new crypto
project kind of thing.

94
00:09:36,300 --> 00:09:45,300
And ahead of ahead of getting into the details, I have to say that this podcast is
very proudly sponsored by no one at all.

95
00:09:45,300 --> 00:09:47,300
I had a sponsor before and don't currently.

96
00:09:47,300 --> 00:09:49,300
And so no one is paying me.

97
00:09:50,300 --> 00:10:00,300
People were sharing a graphic of like podcast budget stuff for this new eCash thing
and insinuating that I took a piece, but I didn't.

98
00:10:00,300 --> 00:10:03,300
Or if I did, I mean, where is it, man?

99
00:10:03,300 --> 00:10:04,300
I mean, you're late.

100
00:10:07,300 --> 00:10:13,300
Well, you know, I guess that's weird for people, but I guess it's understandable.

101
00:10:13,300 --> 00:10:16,300
People want to just think like there's no real reason why.

102
00:10:16,300 --> 00:10:23,300
I mean, it's bizarre on one hand because you can go to like the LayerTwo Labs dot
com slash friends list and you can see all these people who are enthusiastic.

103
00:10:23,300 --> 00:10:29,300
This is not about eCash specifically the hard fork, but they're enthusiastic about
Drivechain the idea.

104
00:10:29,300 --> 00:10:37,300
And this is a giant list of of like big intellectual leaders in the space.

105
00:10:37,300 --> 00:10:42,300
So it's kind of like, is it really so hard to believe that there is genuine interest
in this idea?

106
00:10:42,300 --> 00:10:46,300
But I guess that's just something that people have to go to.

107
00:10:46,300 --> 00:10:47,300
Yeah, for sure.

108
00:10:47,300 --> 00:10:51,300
So I do want to give a shout out to another friend of the show.

109
00:10:51,300 --> 00:10:53,300
And again, I'm a man of my word.

110
00:10:53,300 --> 00:10:56,300
I made a promise. So let me throw this up on the screen here.

111
00:10:56,300 --> 00:11:10,300
Earlier on during this, when I announced that I was going to do this show, we had
some of our friendly eCashers, again, the other eCash, the other semi-major
eCash, asking about have you pay for the interview, whatever.

112
00:11:10,300 --> 00:11:14,300
And I just said, I'm not. And then about the name.

113
00:11:14,300 --> 00:11:21,300
And I just said, like, it's a generic enough name in crypto and has been since a
long before the ABC fork.

114
00:11:21,300 --> 00:11:24,300
Unfortunately, ABC fork founder, they don't mix.

115
00:11:24,300 --> 00:11:27,300
Hello, Mr. Said, you know, this is bullshit.

116
00:11:27,300 --> 00:11:29,300
I expected better from you.

117
00:11:29,300 --> 00:11:31,300
No, it's not.

118
00:11:31,300 --> 00:11:35,300
He says, of course it is between that and stealing Satoshi's coins, which we'll get
into that part later.

119
00:11:35,300 --> 00:11:37,300
Yes, you know, it is.

120
00:11:37,300 --> 00:11:40,300
But it'll be controversial and therefore print views.

121
00:11:40,300 --> 00:11:42,300
I get it. I just thought you were above this.

122
00:11:42,300 --> 00:11:45,300
And so I thought I would mention this on the show.

123
00:11:45,300 --> 00:11:48,300
So I will. So first of all, I have right up on the screen.

124
00:11:48,300 --> 00:11:53,300
A I believe it was eCash launched this year.

125
00:11:53,300 --> 00:11:58,300
The other one launched somewhere in late 2020.

126
00:11:58,300 --> 00:12:03,300
It was named eCash by July of 2021.

127
00:12:03,300 --> 00:12:06,300
And here's a big, long list of everywhere.

128
00:12:06,300 --> 00:12:11,300
P2P eCash system, eCash, eCash, eCash, eCash, eCash everywhere.

129
00:12:11,300 --> 00:12:14,300
Well, before that date that I selected specifically.

130
00:12:14,300 --> 00:12:16,300
You have people, you have Adam back on here somewhere.

131
00:12:16,300 --> 00:12:19,300
I saw you have plenty of people, of course.

132
00:12:19,300 --> 00:12:22,300
David Chom with Chomian eCash.

133
00:12:22,300 --> 00:12:27,300
And then there was even an Ethereum project called Ethereum Cash or eCash.

134
00:12:27,300 --> 00:12:30,300
So many of these. And so as far as like the clicks, by the way.

135
00:12:30,300 --> 00:12:33,300
So just this is my podcast front page.

136
00:12:33,300 --> 00:12:36,300
Just click on the channel. You can corroborate this.

137
00:12:36,300 --> 00:12:40,300
And you look at popular videos. This is not a huge channel.

138
00:12:40,300 --> 00:12:43,300
I don't get very many views. Maybe this one will.

139
00:12:43,300 --> 00:12:46,300
But you look at some of these top ones I got.

140
00:12:46,300 --> 00:12:49,300
Like I mentioned the Joe Rogan Spotify thing five years ago.

141
00:12:49,300 --> 00:12:51,300
And that got a decent amount.

142
00:12:51,300 --> 00:12:55,300
When Zcash had its big kind of renaissance.

143
00:12:55,300 --> 00:12:58,300
And then Ben Swan, who's a significant person.

144
00:12:59,300 --> 00:13:00,300
I mean, what's the name?

145
00:13:00,300 --> 00:13:05,300
Emin Guncir talking about Avalanche back when it like first launched.

146
00:13:05,300 --> 00:13:09,300
Roger Ver coming on this show talking about hijacking Bitcoin.

147
00:13:09,300 --> 00:13:11,300
Again, 3K views. Not bad, but not great.

148
00:13:11,300 --> 00:13:15,300
MoneroHack. These are my most popular videos ascending.

149
00:13:15,300 --> 00:13:19,300
We got some Dash one because very close with the Dash community on this channel.

150
00:13:19,300 --> 00:13:22,300
A lot of my first subscribers, of course.

151
00:13:22,300 --> 00:13:25,300
How to live on crypto ones running a lightning node.

152
00:13:25,300 --> 00:13:26,300
Second highest view count.

153
00:13:26,300 --> 00:13:30,300
Why does the price of Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies go up? Of course.

154
00:13:30,300 --> 00:13:32,300
Most popular video.

155
00:13:32,300 --> 00:13:36,300
Amare Sache on Bitcoin ABC's rebirth as eCash.

156
00:13:36,300 --> 00:13:38,300
Oh my goodness.

157
00:13:38,300 --> 00:13:40,300
So we're saying maybe I had him on.

158
00:13:40,300 --> 00:13:43,300
Because it was just popular and for the clicks.

159
00:13:43,300 --> 00:13:45,300
Maybe it's something about the eCash thing.

160
00:13:45,300 --> 00:13:46,300
I mean, maybe.

161
00:13:46,300 --> 00:13:47,300
I wonder if that's it.

162
00:13:47,300 --> 00:13:50,300
I mean, but I think part of your point was like that, you know.

163
00:13:50,300 --> 00:13:53,300
You're basically getting like 5,000 views or something.

164
00:13:54,300 --> 00:13:55,300
When I'm very lucky, yes.

165
00:13:55,300 --> 00:13:56,300
On a good day.

166
00:13:56,300 --> 00:13:57,300
So, I mean, yeah.

167
00:13:57,300 --> 00:13:59,300
I mean, people think like, you know, why would I pay for it?

168
00:13:59,300 --> 00:14:01,300
No, I'm just kidding.

169
00:14:01,300 --> 00:14:04,300
But it's kind of like, you know.

170
00:14:04,300 --> 00:14:06,300
Well, yeah.

171
00:14:06,300 --> 00:14:08,300
Okay, so I'll tell the story of the name.

172
00:14:08,300 --> 00:14:11,300
I feel terrible that it is the same as Amare's project.

173
00:14:11,300 --> 00:14:18,300
And I have to say, I think the true story makes them look like even worse in a way.

174
00:14:18,300 --> 00:14:20,300
It may make me look bad also.

175
00:14:20,300 --> 00:14:22,300
I think it's just a bad story all around.

176
00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:23,300
But basically.

177
00:14:23,300 --> 00:14:25,300
I mean, it is a competitive term.

178
00:14:25,300 --> 00:14:26,300
Yeah, of course.

179
00:14:26,300 --> 00:14:27,300
It's like email.

180
00:14:27,300 --> 00:14:28,300
It's like whatever.

181
00:14:28,300 --> 00:14:31,300
So I've noticed that in the summer.

182
00:14:31,300 --> 00:14:35,300
Okay, so this is like back in a long time ago.

183
00:14:35,300 --> 00:14:37,300
I think it was maybe 2021 or 2022.

184
00:14:37,300 --> 00:14:39,300
I was talking to someone.

185
00:14:39,300 --> 00:14:42,300
I was interested in domains because I was kind of interested in this project.

186
00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:46,300
This idea of what would you name a hard fork of Bitcoin?

187
00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:54,300
And, yeah, I checked like a few really good domains.

188
00:14:54,300 --> 00:15:01,300
And they were like, it was like I had like eCoin and eCash.

189
00:15:01,300 --> 00:15:03,300
So there was a list of these names like this.

190
00:15:03,300 --> 00:15:08,300
Now, of course, I may be misremembering or I may have mixed up one of the domains.

191
00:15:08,300 --> 00:15:10,300
But I looked at like five or six premium domains.

192
00:15:10,300 --> 00:15:14,300
Everyone wanted like $8 million for these domains.

193
00:15:14,300 --> 00:15:19,300
So I think this was like because like altcoining was like really big or something.

194
00:15:19,300 --> 00:15:20,300
I'm not sure.

195
00:15:20,300 --> 00:15:23,300
We didn't have like Bitcoin Season 2 and we didn't have like the collapse of
altcoins.

196
00:15:23,300 --> 00:15:24,300
So, yeah.

197
00:15:24,300 --> 00:15:29,300
And then basically last summer, I was just kind of like cold messaging some of these
people.

198
00:15:29,300 --> 00:15:32,300
And I was like, you know, can we work something out?

199
00:15:32,300 --> 00:15:34,300
Or like if I raise a lot of money, you get like a percent.

200
00:15:34,300 --> 00:15:37,300
And then they just told me that they would sell me the domain.

201
00:15:38,300 --> 00:15:45,300
They had a whole set of eCash.com with the date, eCash.net and whatever.

202
00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:49,300
And they were like, we'll just give you the whole set for like much, much, much,
much.

203
00:15:49,300 --> 00:15:51,300
I don't want to say exactly how much.

204
00:15:51,300 --> 00:15:57,300
I'm not sure if that's like appropriate or like just too much like a kitchen table
type of a thing.

205
00:15:57,300 --> 00:16:04,300
But let's just say it was a lot less than – it was less than a quarter of a million
dollars for all of them.

206
00:16:04,300 --> 00:16:08,300
So it was – we're talking like huge, huge, huge, huge.

207
00:16:08,300 --> 00:16:10,300
So I was like, oh, OK, great.

208
00:16:10,300 --> 00:16:15,300
So then before I did that, though, I was – I looked around to see is this name in
use.

209
00:16:15,300 --> 00:16:19,300
And I honestly – hand on the Bible.

210
00:16:19,300 --> 00:16:23,300
I had no idea it was Omri's project at all and I feel bad about that.

211
00:16:23,300 --> 00:16:28,300
But I looked it up and it was like, oh, this is just some project that's 160th on
CoinMarketCap.

212
00:16:28,300 --> 00:16:33,300
And I thought, well, I can't name – once we get to like number 12, like I don't
know.

213
00:16:33,300 --> 00:16:35,300
I've never heard of like any of those projects.

214
00:16:35,300 --> 00:16:36,300
You know what I mean?

215
00:16:36,300 --> 00:16:38,300
Like I know of a couple.

216
00:16:38,300 --> 00:16:41,300
I know like a few altcoin names, but I don't know.

217
00:16:41,300 --> 00:16:48,300
If you go to a guy on the street and you say, can you name me the top 200 altcoins,
they're just going to say like I don't know.

218
00:16:48,300 --> 00:16:55,300
So, yeah, I looked it up and I didn't look into it any further because I just
thought, well, I'm going to get to .com and it's 160.

219
00:16:55,300 --> 00:16:58,300
So 160 might as well be infinity like as far as I'm concerned.

220
00:16:58,300 --> 00:17:01,300
So that's what I thought and I thought, oh, this will be great.

221
00:17:01,300 --> 00:17:06,300
Now, of course, I knew that wherever this community is, they'll probably be mad
about that, but I didn't.

222
00:17:06,300 --> 00:17:12,300
I think I might have done it differently had I known that it was another hard fork
of Bitcoin and it was also Omri's thing.

223
00:17:12,300 --> 00:17:20,300
But I sent Omri a note saying after I found this out, I sent him like a telegram
message and I was like, oh, I'm sorry about this name.

224
00:17:20,300 --> 00:17:24,300
And I explained – I told him the exact same story and it got two check marks.

225
00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:27,300
So he got it and he read it, but he didn't reply.

226
00:17:27,300 --> 00:17:28,300
He didn't say anything.

227
00:17:29,300 --> 00:17:31,300
So that was months ago.

228
00:17:31,300 --> 00:17:33,300
So but he's complaining to you, I guess.

229
00:17:33,300 --> 00:17:34,300
I don't know. So that's the story.

230
00:17:34,300 --> 00:17:36,300
I'll have him back up if he apologizes.

231
00:17:36,300 --> 00:17:37,300
Yeah, that's fine.

232
00:17:37,300 --> 00:17:39,300
So that's the story about that.

233
00:17:39,300 --> 00:17:40,300
So, yeah, I didn't know.

234
00:17:40,300 --> 00:17:47,300
But, yeah, I don't think – I mean, the entire market cap of the other eCash is like
less than 150 million.

235
00:17:47,300 --> 00:17:57,300
And in contrast, when Bitcoin Cash like debuted in November 2017, it quickly became
the number one altcoin for like a day.

236
00:17:57,300 --> 00:17:59,300
Then it didn't last.

237
00:17:59,300 --> 00:18:06,300
But that was the origin of that famous tweet from Vitalik when he said congrats on
this seriously, as you probably remember.

238
00:18:06,300 --> 00:18:18,300
So like we're talking like contending for the number one spot in the case of BCH,
albeit for a day, briefly for one day.

239
00:18:18,300 --> 00:18:26,300
And then if you look at like the market caps are like logarithmically distributed.

240
00:18:26,300 --> 00:18:27,300
You know what I mean?

241
00:18:27,300 --> 00:18:31,300
So like once you get out of like – like the top three are like most of the value.

242
00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:38,300
And then like the top ten are like the huge – and then there's all this long tail of
low-value projects.

243
00:18:38,300 --> 00:18:42,300
There's this scree or whatever it's sometimes called in statistics.

244
00:18:42,300 --> 00:18:46,300
So it's like – I mean, yeah.

245
00:18:46,300 --> 00:18:52,300
So I don't really – I don't think of that as a legitimate contender for the name.

246
00:18:52,300 --> 00:18:54,300
And then you have the dot-com.

247
00:18:54,300 --> 00:18:56,300
That's good.

248
00:18:56,300 --> 00:18:58,300
But, yeah, certainly I regret that to some extent.

249
00:18:58,300 --> 00:18:59,300
I don't know.

250
00:18:59,300 --> 00:19:07,300
Well, who's – so like if my project is 160th on coin market cap, like I've just got
to tell everyone like I will – I would be giving up at that point.

251
00:19:07,300 --> 00:19:10,300
I would not be caring about other people.

252
00:19:10,300 --> 00:19:11,300
You know what I mean?

253
00:19:11,300 --> 00:19:19,300
Like if that's what you have to care about, then the project is in bad shape because
I would just say, oh, yeah, I understand why.

254
00:19:19,300 --> 00:19:29,300
You know what I would do is I would actually – if I were 160th on coin market cap
and someone else wanted to launch something with a different name, I would say, oh,
we'll sell you the domain.

255
00:19:29,300 --> 00:19:39,300
I would sell them all the assets and maybe give those to the – I would tell the
community, hey, listen, our project isn't going very well, but I'm going to sell
this stuff.

256
00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:46,300
And we're going to distribute the proceeds of the sale to everyone, and we're going
to close up a shop maybe is maybe what I would do.

257
00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:52,300
I really do think like there will be either one cryptocurrency that succeeds and the
rest will fail.

258
00:19:52,300 --> 00:19:57,300
So yeah, I just like – I don't – I already think it's a very rivalrous situation.

259
00:19:57,300 --> 00:19:59,300
You're not going to make a lot of friends.

260
00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:00,300
So yeah, it's tough.

261
00:20:00,300 --> 00:20:03,300
eCash is a really good name because it speaks to privacy.

262
00:20:03,300 --> 00:20:05,300
It speaks to sovereignty.

263
00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:09,300
It's a great name, and it's tough because you either got to pick a bad name.

264
00:20:09,300 --> 00:20:12,300
You got to like invent a name like Kubernetes or something.

265
00:20:13,300 --> 00:20:15,300
You got to invent a weird name.

266
00:20:15,300 --> 00:20:18,300
Yeah, the naming space is tough.

267
00:20:18,300 --> 00:20:25,300
And like if we were to really think back, Bitcoin is kind of a dumb name a little
bit.

268
00:20:25,300 --> 00:20:27,300
I hated it at first.

269
00:20:27,300 --> 00:20:30,300
Yeah, for like at least a year, I was like I hate this name.

270
00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:33,300
But it makes sense because it's BitTorrent and it's coin.

271
00:20:33,300 --> 00:20:37,300
Or like bits and bytes like ByteCoin, Bitcoin, like those kinds of things.

272
00:20:37,300 --> 00:20:44,300
It sounds like it's like nerdy and niche-sounding, but like the fact that you have
just presidents of the United States

273
00:20:44,300 --> 00:20:48,300
and people like that talking about it is like a little – it's a little cringe at
this point.

274
00:20:48,300 --> 00:20:54,300
But it's also so built into the lexicon of the world that it works.

275
00:20:54,300 --> 00:20:59,300
eCash – the thing about eCash is it's sort of like a very well-understood concept, I
guess.

276
00:20:59,300 --> 00:21:03,300
Like people have heard of – like if you – if there was no crypto at all,

277
00:21:03,300 --> 00:21:08,300
and people are talking about like it's kind of building like an eCash system or like
eCash is a good –

278
00:21:08,300 --> 00:21:14,300
like people would – even people who didn't know David Chaum's legacy would kind of
know what you're talking about.

279
00:21:14,300 --> 00:21:15,300
It's E –

280
00:21:15,300 --> 00:21:16,300
Right, yeah.

281
00:21:16,300 --> 00:21:18,300
So it's a very good name in that way, I think.

282
00:21:18,300 --> 00:21:22,300
Yeah, and then Electron Cash was like one of them, Electrum.

283
00:21:22,300 --> 00:21:25,300
Like I think that was Bitcoin Cash's Electrum wallet.

284
00:21:25,300 --> 00:21:31,300
And it's very well used, but then there's stiff competition, like obviously all
those things.

285
00:21:32,300 --> 00:21:35,300
I don't know where this ranks in terms of stiffness.

286
00:21:35,300 --> 00:21:39,300
I mean don't clip that and use that clip really.

287
00:21:39,300 --> 00:21:50,300
But as far as the cash-use stuff where those like semi-custodial showman eCash mints
that are popular or were popular,

288
00:21:50,300 --> 00:21:53,300
it's like the next lightning network on Bitcoin.

289
00:21:53,300 --> 00:21:54,300
Those are called eCash.

290
00:21:54,300 --> 00:21:56,300
It's like, oh, I'm saying eCash.

291
00:21:56,300 --> 00:21:57,300
Right.

292
00:21:57,300 --> 00:22:00,300
I think to me, though, that's just more evidence of how generic the name is.

293
00:22:02,300 --> 00:22:08,300
Yeah, and it's – the thing is – and it's always one of those things like if you just
called it Cash,

294
00:22:08,300 --> 00:22:14,300
like then I would be like, well, it's a great name, but you have to fight for it.

295
00:22:14,300 --> 00:22:16,300
You have to fight all the way up there to get it.

296
00:22:16,300 --> 00:22:17,300
So.

297
00:22:17,300 --> 00:22:18,300
Yeah.

298
00:22:18,300 --> 00:22:21,300
What time did – when did you get the domain, by the way?

299
00:22:21,300 --> 00:22:22,300
When was that?

300
00:22:22,300 --> 00:22:23,300
In the summer.

301
00:22:23,300 --> 00:22:24,300
It was – I think it was late summer.

302
00:22:25,300 --> 00:22:27,300
It wasn't that long ago, maybe like September or something.

303
00:22:27,300 --> 00:22:38,300
So I wonder why either the Bitcoin Maxis or the Bitcoin ABC eCash.

304
00:22:38,300 --> 00:22:39,300
Right.

305
00:22:39,300 --> 00:22:41,300
I wonder why they didn't manage to get it.

306
00:22:41,300 --> 00:22:44,300
I wonder if it just wasn't a priority because I have to admit the other eCash's
domain,

307
00:22:44,300 --> 00:22:49,300
and I promise I'll stop talking about it pretty soon, is e.cash, which is a great
one.

308
00:22:49,300 --> 00:22:50,300
Yeah, which is good.

309
00:22:50,300 --> 00:22:51,300
It's a great one.

310
00:22:51,300 --> 00:22:52,300
It's funny.

311
00:22:52,300 --> 00:22:58,300
After I did eCash.com, I put out like the request to buy.

312
00:22:58,300 --> 00:23:00,300
I tried to buy that one.

313
00:23:00,300 --> 00:23:04,300
I honestly had no idea that this was Omri's project until like – I just thought it
was

314
00:23:04,300 --> 00:23:05,300
some – you see what I mean?

315
00:23:05,300 --> 00:23:11,300
This is – I honestly thought it was just some random guy was just like, oh, this is

316
00:23:11,300 --> 00:23:16,300
a really good name, and I'll just launch like a random – I had no idea it was a
serious

317
00:23:16,300 --> 00:23:17,300
project at all.

318
00:23:17,300 --> 00:23:20,300
But I still think if you're 160 on CoinMarketCap, like that's it.

319
00:23:20,300 --> 00:23:25,300
That's like when you're in the hospital and they do like time of death or whatever.

320
00:23:25,300 --> 00:23:27,300
Why go on with that?

321
00:23:27,300 --> 00:23:28,300
I don't know.

322
00:23:28,300 --> 00:23:29,300
Yeah.

323
00:23:29,300 --> 00:23:31,300
I mean it really depends on like momentum and stuff.

324
00:23:31,300 --> 00:23:37,300
There have been quite a few that have been – I think Zcash, speaking of caches, was

325
00:23:37,300 --> 00:23:44,300
200 something CoinMarketCap like a year or so ago, and then they got basically top
11

326
00:23:44,300 --> 00:23:46,300
recently, like top 10, top 11.

327
00:23:46,300 --> 00:23:48,300
So like I don't know where they are now.

328
00:23:48,300 --> 00:23:49,300
It can't happen.

329
00:23:49,300 --> 00:23:50,300
Top 18 or something.

330
00:23:50,300 --> 00:23:52,300
So it can't happen, right?

331
00:23:52,300 --> 00:23:53,300
But it's like –

332
00:23:53,300 --> 00:23:56,300
I'm surprised that Zcash is so – would have fallen so low.

333
00:23:56,300 --> 00:24:02,300
Like I know that it's not – it is weird because it has other things like weird dev

334
00:24:02,300 --> 00:24:03,300
tax and whatever.

335
00:24:03,300 --> 00:24:07,300
But they were at least like – they had like real like PhDs and stuff working there,
and

336
00:24:07,300 --> 00:24:09,300
so they were at least something.

337
00:24:09,300 --> 00:24:15,300
So I was surprised that they would fall below like the Bitcoin SV level or whatever.

338
00:24:15,300 --> 00:24:17,300
This is just all coin chat now, I guess.

339
00:24:17,300 --> 00:24:18,300
Yes, of course.

340
00:24:18,300 --> 00:24:23,300
You think like if you're below Bitcoin SV, then it's like, oh man, like –

341
00:24:23,300 --> 00:24:29,300
It depends on when – the when of Bitcoin SV because right now, Bitcoin SV is 139th

342
00:24:29,300 --> 00:24:35,300
place, still too high in my estimation, and apologies to people who don't like that.

343
00:24:35,300 --> 00:24:41,300
I know there's a lot of people who are the SV believers, and they have some good
points.

344
00:24:41,300 --> 00:24:43,300
But yeah, it's tough.

345
00:24:43,300 --> 00:24:45,300
Many cases like that in the space.

346
00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:50,300
The thing with like the – the thing that – the last thing on comparing the various

347
00:24:50,300 --> 00:24:54,300
forks, I'm always going to like – no offense to people who find it funny.

348
00:24:54,300 --> 00:24:59,300
I am always going to think it's hilarious that another Bitcoin – that there's
competing

349
00:24:59,300 --> 00:25:02,300
Bitcoin forks, like chain forks.

350
00:25:02,300 --> 00:25:29,300
Yeah, it's very bad for the each of the – it splits the vote in a kind of – in an
analogy to democracy. It does make it really hard for anyone to compete against, you
know, the number one coin. So that's not good for the end user, because the end user
deserves many strong competitors. But yeah, part of the idea – part of the
Drivechain idea, as you know, is that no matter what people's disagreement is in it,

351
00:25:30,300 --> 00:25:39,300
in a technology sense, they can all be part of the same economic coin. So that's a
part of it. But this could be like the XKCD thing, where it's like we have 15
competing standards or whatever.

352
00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:43,300
What we need is a new standard. Oh, now it's 16 or something. I don't know.

353
00:25:44,300 --> 00:26:00,300
Yeah, it is funny that like it is creating a certain amount of – it is creating a
certain amount of controversy, which I guess is good. But the last thing on like the
– because when you mentioned BSV, that reminded me of market cap, which market cap
is kind of weird arbitrary metric anyway.

354
00:26:00,300 --> 00:26:09,300
But one thing is when you – so with the Bitcoin quantum threat, you have the whole
Satoshi's coins, and I guess this is the first thing we'll probably go into after
that.

355
00:26:09,300 --> 00:26:22,300
But there's a lot of Bitcoin, because Bitcoin was the very first. A lot of Bitcoin
is known to be and also suspected to be kind of lost forever. Like it's just not
accessible.

356
00:26:22,300 --> 00:26:39,300
We'll never be – dead people have it, et cetera. Probably much greater than other
future projects. So like the actual circulating supply of the coins in real terms,
like the actual market cap would probably be lower if all those coins were
considered like not there.

357
00:26:39,300 --> 00:26:54,300
And if you start to then go down the list to like Bitcoin cash, like what percentage
of people have even claimed their Bitcoin cash or that actually have that. But
again, it's said, oh, like 20 million supply.

358
00:26:55,300 --> 00:27:23,300
And then of those, when you fork to BSV or to ABC cash, right, that one, then the
percentage of like actual coins that exist in circulation is much lower. But yet the
market cap is like the market price of the current supply, but it's sort of like
multiplied to the 20 million rather than let's just, I don't know, throw out some
random unfair number like 12 million or 20 million or 10 million that exists.

359
00:27:23,300 --> 00:27:29,300
You're saying that the Bitcoin cash market cap is actually in reality lower than it
appears on.

360
00:27:29,300 --> 00:27:36,300
Yes, Bitcoin as well. But the further down the fork list you get, because every time
you split there's like –

361
00:27:36,300 --> 00:27:39,300
Yeah, there's many people who are just like indifferent and they –

362
00:27:40,300 --> 00:27:59,300
Yeah, so on that, I think that BSV has a very – I would say a very – maybe just me
hating, I don't know, but it seems like it might have a very inflated market cap
ranking where it should be 300 and something instead. And maybe the same could be
instead of like ABC cash.

363
00:28:00,300 --> 00:28:13,300
Yeah, I mean, I really think like if you have to get to the second page, like how
many cryptocurrencies can a normal person name? I mean, I hate to – I'm not trying
to say that what a normal person thinks is like how we should steer.

364
00:28:14,300 --> 00:28:34,300
But I do think – yeah, I would not – if I were running a cryptocurrency project and
it was very low in the ranking, I would just be like, well, it's time for a
conversation about like do we think we can – because I think you have to get to
number one.

365
00:28:34,300 --> 00:28:42,300
You're either going to get to number one or you're just going to go to zero. So I
would say I only want to be a part of something if I think it can go to number one.

366
00:28:43,300 --> 00:28:50,300
I don't think if you're strapped below 100 for multiple years, then I would say
that's a bad sign. You should start over.

367
00:28:51,300 --> 00:29:05,300
Yeah, I would say for sure first page coin market cap is kind of like if you're
trying to be a global financial system or a global platform, like one of these like
basically a Bitcoin or Ethereum competitor.

368
00:29:05,300 --> 00:29:12,300
If you're trying to be one of those, you should stay on page one probably. Again,
this is a totally crappy arbitrary metric.

369
00:29:12,300 --> 00:29:16,300
You should try to stay on there if you have any expectation of succeeding.

370
00:29:16,300 --> 00:29:26,300
Past that though, if you're doing like very specific targeted use cases, like let's
say NIM, the NIM VPN network that has a whole bunch of different mixed nets all
over.

371
00:29:26,300 --> 00:29:32,300
They have their own coin and it's incentivized, like Filecoin, which is big storage,
those kinds of things.

372
00:29:32,300 --> 00:29:35,300
If they're like third, fourth page, I don't really care.

373
00:29:35,300 --> 00:29:41,300
It's more of like a decentralized company than it is like the global financial
system of the future.

374
00:29:43,300 --> 00:29:57,300
I do, but of course the sidechain vision is that people do all this R&D and they
figure out their little decentralized company thing and then you plug all that into
just one coin and then one coin will eventually do it.

375
00:29:57,300 --> 00:29:59,300
It's kind of like we have USB now.

376
00:30:00,300 --> 00:30:10,300
It's like, oh, people can invent their own printer or something, but eventually
we'll have it all standardized and interoperable and then it would be very hard.

377
00:30:10,300 --> 00:30:23,300
It's very hard for even if you invent the world's greatest printer or something, if
it's not a USB cable and then someone else selling a USB printer, it's very hard for
you to survive.

378
00:30:24,300 --> 00:30:27,300
Yeah, well, let's dig into some of the actual stuff.

379
00:30:27,300 --> 00:30:30,300
I'm going to throw up the website, eCash.com.

380
00:30:32,300 --> 00:30:34,300
It always goes full circle, right?

381
00:30:34,300 --> 00:30:36,300
It has the activation thing.

382
00:30:36,300 --> 00:30:41,300
You have Vlad's interview thing here and then a bunch of stuff like that.

383
00:30:41,300 --> 00:30:45,300
The why hard fork, FAQ, what to expect, reading, all this stuff.

384
00:30:46,300 --> 00:30:49,300
I can't necessarily – not that it matters, but I can only see you.

385
00:30:49,300 --> 00:30:50,300
I can't see what you're doing.

386
00:30:50,300 --> 00:30:51,300
That's fine.

387
00:30:51,300 --> 00:30:52,300
I'm just letting you know.

388
00:30:52,300 --> 00:30:53,300
As long as you know it's on your own site.

389
00:30:53,300 --> 00:30:54,300
I do.

390
00:30:54,300 --> 00:30:55,300
I mean, I know what I put there.

391
00:30:55,300 --> 00:30:58,300
I don't know what the web browser is showing people.

392
00:30:58,300 --> 00:30:59,300
Yeah.

393
00:30:59,300 --> 00:31:01,300
We have some young lass on there.

394
00:31:01,300 --> 00:31:02,300
Where'd that come from?

395
00:31:02,300 --> 00:31:03,300
Just kidding.

396
00:31:03,300 --> 00:31:06,300
So first of all, let's define what this is.

397
00:31:06,300 --> 00:31:08,300
It's a fork of BTC.

398
00:31:08,300 --> 00:31:09,300
Right.

399
00:31:09,300 --> 00:31:11,300
And what else is this?

400
00:31:11,300 --> 00:31:13,300
So I know what Bitcoin is today.

401
00:31:13,300 --> 00:31:20,300
I think everyone kind of knows what Bitcoin is today other than maybe some small
technical details like who knows about Schnorr signatures or whatever.

402
00:31:20,300 --> 00:31:23,300
But is Bitcoin – what else?

403
00:31:23,300 --> 00:31:26,300
What's different from copy-paste?

404
00:31:26,300 --> 00:31:38,300
Well, I think the impetus behind it is that we'll have a coin where we activate a
Drivechain, BIP300, BIP301, and then we'll be able to try them out, these different
L2s.

405
00:31:38,300 --> 00:31:40,300
These are merge-mined L2 chains.

406
00:31:40,300 --> 00:31:43,300
These are what used to be called sidechains.

407
00:31:43,300 --> 00:31:46,300
And now we'll have a place to try those out.

408
00:31:47,300 --> 00:31:53,300
BTC is very slow to adopt any soft fork upgrades, but there's more to it than that.

409
00:31:53,300 --> 00:32:05,300
It's just kind of like the culture of BTC is very static at the moment, and kind of
anyone who sticks their neck out to do anything doesn't get very far.

410
00:32:06,300 --> 00:32:10,300
So even if they activated BIP300 in BTC, that would not be enough.

411
00:32:10,300 --> 00:32:16,300
There would need to be a total cultural revolution prioritizing these merge-mined
L2s.

412
00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:25,300
So all that's probably not going to happen, even though that would help a lot of the
miners make more money and probably save a lot of them from bankruptcy.

413
00:32:25,300 --> 00:32:27,300
They're still not going to do it.

414
00:32:27,300 --> 00:32:31,300
I'm not exactly sure why, but I think that's a mistake.

415
00:32:31,300 --> 00:32:37,300
On a technical level, then, it's just Bitcoin plus BIP300, and then that's it,
right?

416
00:32:37,300 --> 00:32:41,300
There's still SHA-256 mined.

417
00:32:41,300 --> 00:32:42,300
Right.

418
00:32:42,300 --> 00:32:45,300
Basically, the L1 is exactly the same as Bitcoin Core.

419
00:32:45,300 --> 00:32:57,300
And even the BIP300-301, even that itself, I have a way of activating it without
changing any lines of code in Bitcoin Core.

420
00:32:57,300 --> 00:32:59,300
You run a second client next to it.

421
00:32:59,300 --> 00:33:01,300
This is the Core Untouched Soft Fork.

422
00:33:01,300 --> 00:33:05,300
And so even to activate that, there won't actually be any change in.

423
00:33:05,300 --> 00:33:13,300
So even on a technical, technical level, technical squared, it's basically Bitcoin
Core is the L1.

424
00:33:13,300 --> 00:33:19,300
And the purpose of that is to say, oh, everyone who loves Bitcoin Core, hey, you
still have that over here.

425
00:33:19,300 --> 00:33:22,300
I do reduce the L1 block size.

426
00:33:22,300 --> 00:33:24,300
Oh, so the block size is changed.

427
00:33:24,300 --> 00:33:25,300
That's the one.

428
00:33:25,300 --> 00:33:26,300
Yeah.

429
00:33:26,300 --> 00:33:29,300
It's a very frivolous change, though, frankly.

430
00:33:29,300 --> 00:33:32,300
But it's lower.

431
00:33:32,300 --> 00:33:34,300
So now this is the smallest block.

432
00:33:34,300 --> 00:33:37,300
Of all the forks, this is the smallest block.

433
00:33:37,300 --> 00:33:38,300
So what is it?

434
00:33:38,300 --> 00:33:40,300
300 kilobytes?

435
00:33:40,300 --> 00:33:41,300
400.

436
00:33:41,300 --> 00:33:43,300
Yeah, because it's 4 megabytes.

437
00:33:43,300 --> 00:33:45,300
After SegWit, it's 4 megabytes on BTC.

438
00:33:45,300 --> 00:33:48,300
And so I cut it to 400 kilobytes.

439
00:33:48,300 --> 00:33:52,300
Including like the witness data kind of like?

440
00:33:52,300 --> 00:33:55,300
Yeah, I cut the whole – like them all by – yeah, exactly.

441
00:33:55,300 --> 00:33:56,300
Interesting.

442
00:33:56,300 --> 00:34:08,300
So the other change, I guess, that I wasn't really thinking or aware of, I guess, is
on distribution, which goes to like the mention of like the Satoshi's coins thing.

443
00:34:08,300 --> 00:34:09,300
Yes.

444
00:34:09,300 --> 00:34:11,300
So I've only seen most –

445
00:34:11,300 --> 00:34:13,300
I knew this would be controversial.

446
00:34:13,300 --> 00:34:17,300
Yeah, I mostly just saw like angry accusations, and I didn't see the details.

447
00:34:17,300 --> 00:34:19,300
So I don't honestly know.

448
00:34:19,300 --> 00:34:20,300
So why don't you tell me?

449
00:34:20,300 --> 00:34:25,300
What do you plan on doing with Satoshi's coins or other people's coins who are being
forked?

450
00:34:25,300 --> 00:34:31,300
Yeah, the 1.1 million coins matching the so-called Potoshi pattern.

451
00:34:31,300 --> 00:34:36,300
These are early coins mined by Satoshi that have never been moved.

452
00:34:36,300 --> 00:34:39,300
We are reassigning some of them.

453
00:34:39,300 --> 00:34:48,300
They end up being less than half to the investors who support the project before the
fork.

454
00:34:49,300 --> 00:34:56,300
So that is – we are giving these coins to people who buy them now basically.

455
00:34:56,300 --> 00:34:57,300
Yeah.

456
00:34:57,300 --> 00:35:04,300
So what is – so first of all, what is the thought process behind that?

457
00:35:04,300 --> 00:35:05,300
Like, yeah.

458
00:35:05,300 --> 00:35:07,300
Well, there's quite a few things.

459
00:35:07,300 --> 00:35:15,300
So a lot of people think that this is like – they sort of smell blood in the water,
and they think, oh, this is like the weak part of this project.

460
00:35:16,300 --> 00:35:22,300
And they think, well, this is like a desperate move, and it violates property rights
and all this stuff.

461
00:35:22,300 --> 00:35:41,300
I think really none of that is true, and actually the whole Satoshi's coins part is
not a weak point of the project at all because the thing is, for 10 years, we put
out a separate version of this project that does not mess with Satoshi's coins.

462
00:35:41,300 --> 00:35:52,300
And in fact, this second version of the project, it doesn't – it's not even a hard
fork of Bitcoin because the second version of the project is just BIP300 itself.

463
00:35:52,300 --> 00:36:00,300
So we've already been giving away for free the one that's not a hard fork and the
one that's not interfering with Satoshi's coins.

464
00:36:01,300 --> 00:36:11,300
And so people have to kind of – the implication is that if it weren't for this
Satoshi's coins thing, then they would be supporters of the project.

465
00:36:11,300 --> 00:36:14,300
But you and I know that that's not remotely true at all.

466
00:36:15,300 --> 00:36:33,300
I don't think that that's the primary – I think people – if I were to guess, people
who do not want to support the project are either Bitcoin maximalists who don't
think this is not Bitcoin, therefore they're not interested, or they are people in
other cryptocurrencies that just don't see the reason why this one is better.

467
00:36:33,300 --> 00:36:39,300
But I don't think any of those people are going to be like, well, I was on board
until – I don't know how many, to be clear.

468
00:36:39,300 --> 00:36:40,300
There might be some.

469
00:36:40,300 --> 00:36:43,300
There might be some who buy into the whole vision but then are like, I don't like
that part.

470
00:36:43,300 --> 00:36:47,300
Well, that's the addressing a why not kind of thing.

471
00:36:47,300 --> 00:36:48,300
But what about the why?

472
00:36:48,300 --> 00:36:50,300
Why do this?

473
00:36:50,300 --> 00:36:51,300
I mean you could –

474
00:36:51,300 --> 00:36:52,300
Yeah, why do it as well.

475
00:36:52,300 --> 00:36:53,300
In part because –

476
00:36:53,300 --> 00:37:02,300
You could like take some coins that are tied to Roger Ver and just take some of them
instead or just take none of them or take the whole supply.

477
00:37:02,300 --> 00:37:03,300
Why?

478
00:37:04,300 --> 00:37:10,300
Yeah, or we could have 22 million coins, or we could try to pre-mine some coins, or
we could try to quickly mine some coins at the moment.

479
00:37:10,300 --> 00:37:12,300
There are a lot of possibilities.

480
00:37:13,300 --> 00:37:20,300
Well, one thing is I looked into the Petoshi research and actually – at first I was
a big skeptic, but then I was like, okay.

481
00:37:20,300 --> 00:37:36,300
Actually, it's very convincing that all these coins were mined by – all these coins
including the first Bitcoin blocks, they were all mined by like a special miner,
which means it was Satoshi who mined all these coins.

482
00:37:36,300 --> 00:37:46,300
Another thing is the coins have never moved, which suggests that they might be –
they were not mined for the purpose of being spent.

483
00:37:46,300 --> 00:37:48,300
There's more evidence to suggest this.

484
00:37:48,300 --> 00:38:02,300
In the Petoshi mining research, there's a special – the way the miner operated was
after it found a block, it would wait for five minutes to see if anyone else – to
give everyone else a chance.

485
00:38:02,300 --> 00:38:06,300
And then if no one else found a block, it would turn back on, and it would mine
super fast.

486
00:38:06,300 --> 00:38:22,300
And so this was clearly an attempt to keep the difficulty low, and it was also
clearly an attempt to keep the network moving at 10-minute blocks, which makes it
look more like just an altruistic act, and he wasn't even after the coins.

487
00:38:22,300 --> 00:38:27,300
He was just trying to keep the blockchain moving at a regular pace to process the
transactions.

488
00:38:27,300 --> 00:38:31,300
Now, does that imply that he doesn't have access to the coins, or he intended to?

489
00:38:31,300 --> 00:38:46,300
No, I think it maybe implies that he just didn't mine them in order to – it may also
imply that he knows that they were all mined in like a vulnerable way, so to take
one of them might – they all might not be linked.

490
00:38:46,300 --> 00:38:49,300
There's more to it than that though.

491
00:38:49,300 --> 00:38:58,300
I think the hard fork is very difficult to pull off, and I don't want – like imagine
if you have a pure hard fork that you announce is going to happen next year.

492
00:38:58,300 --> 00:39:05,300
There's no reason – there's no time pressure for people to get involved today, so
why would anyone pay attention to it now?

493
00:39:05,300 --> 00:39:21,300
You need a reason to get resources and work done on the fork before it happens
because really you have two options, which is one is you can try to work really hard
on the fork.

494
00:39:22,300 --> 00:39:33,300
This is what Satoshi did. You can try to work really hard on your project, invest a
bunch of time up front, and then finish it, and then bring it to the world, and this
is what Satoshi did.

495
00:39:34,300 --> 00:39:38,300
And then – or you could say, well, here's the new hard fork.

496
00:39:38,300 --> 00:39:51,300
This is more like – a little bit more like what Bitcoin Cash did where it was kind
of like this fork happened in August, and then in November it was kind of like
everyone switched to it after the fact.

497
00:39:51,300 --> 00:39:53,300
You have to have like a mad scramble for it.

498
00:39:54,300 --> 00:40:06,300
Now, if you want to bring the Bitcoin community along, you kind of have to give them
advance notice I think, and you also want the project to be basically finished in
advance.

499
00:40:06,300 --> 00:40:17,300
So yeah, of course what Satoshi did was he like altruistically put in all the work,
then released the project, and then he altruistically mined for a while, and then
didn't touch the coins.

500
00:40:17,300 --> 00:40:19,300
And so that's obviously very impressive.

501
00:40:20,300 --> 00:40:23,300
I will say something about that standard of doing things.

502
00:40:23,300 --> 00:40:35,300
It sort of started a standard of this is the way you should do it because Satoshi
did it, and I think it made sense for Satoshi starting things out, but it's entirely
unrealistic as a standard.

503
00:40:35,300 --> 00:40:43,300
What I did notice in the early days is you had a lot of projects that were
pretending to do this.

504
00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:50,300
They were pretending to be like, oh, we're going to be like Satoshi, and we're going
to do it all altruistically.

505
00:40:50,300 --> 00:41:01,300
But then you had things like, for example, I've heard some rumors through the
grapevine that Charlie Lee intentionally built in an inflation bug so he could get
some of the early coins on the day one of the Litecoin launch.

506
00:41:01,300 --> 00:41:16,300
I've heard there's some early projects, like I think Monero had a ninja mine where a
crippled miner was released in the early days that was not publicly available, and
the privately available miner mined way faster.

507
00:41:16,300 --> 00:41:20,300
People were just doing all these underhanded ways of basically getting startup
capital.

508
00:41:20,300 --> 00:41:28,300
Then you had things like Decred and Digibyte, which did have a pre-mine, but not
much, like a small one, to just get things started.

509
00:41:29,300 --> 00:41:33,300
Then you got onto Ethereum with the first ICO.

510
00:41:33,300 --> 00:41:43,300
Zcash had startup capital from VCs, and they got the 20% of the block reward for the
first few years in terms of the founder's reward.

511
00:41:43,300 --> 00:41:46,300
Now we're in full-on, everything's VC unlock mode and stuff.

512
00:41:46,300 --> 00:41:50,300
So you do need money to start projects, right?

513
00:41:50,300 --> 00:41:57,300
But there's transparent ways of doing it, and then there's not transparent ways of
doing it.

514
00:41:57,300 --> 00:42:03,300
I would add that I'm not actually comfortable with what Satoshi did, in fact, even
though I was very generous of him.

515
00:42:03,300 --> 00:42:19,300
I've benefited enormously as a result of him inventing Bitcoin, and the idea that
the official plan is that he has to altruistically sacrifice so much time and money,
I'm actually not very comfortable with that.

516
00:42:19,300 --> 00:42:25,300
I'm a little more comfortable with, for example, when they give Elon Musk huge
performance pay or something like that.

517
00:42:25,300 --> 00:42:35,300
I think that's a little bit more where you think, well, okay, if it's a good job,
then everyone benefits, and you have some incentive alignment.

518
00:42:35,300 --> 00:42:48,300
So I think anything that relies on altruism has the downside that it's going to
punish the people who are acting the most altruistic way.

519
00:42:48,300 --> 00:42:53,300
So I think that's actually kind of perverse, I think. I don't think that's a great
idea.

520
00:42:53,300 --> 00:43:07,300
So yeah, there has to be some source of funding, and you really want the people who
help you earliest to have a disproportionate payoff if the project is ultimately a
success.

521
00:43:08,300 --> 00:43:22,300
And so that was part of why I do it in the first place, is an intentional choice to
try to, okay, we can get some people who have skin in the game so that by the time
the fork happens, there will be a whole new coalition of users.

522
00:43:23,300 --> 00:43:27,300
I have to add that it's partially also to create controversy and trick people into
talking about it.

523
00:43:27,300 --> 00:43:36,300
And it's also partially because, okay, all these people who are haters of this idea,
who are going to say that they hate this steel stoches coins phrase or whatever.

524
00:43:36,300 --> 00:43:50,300
But the point is, these people already hated Drivechain when it was a for-free
project on Bitcoin that was going to basically kill all altcoins, kill all
shitcoins.

525
00:43:50,300 --> 00:43:53,300
It would be like the super maximalist project, but they still hated it then.

526
00:43:53,300 --> 00:44:02,300
So these people already hate the project, and it's like you're sacrificing a chess
piece that's already been captured or something.

527
00:44:02,300 --> 00:44:03,300
You know what I mean?

528
00:44:03,300 --> 00:44:09,300
We're going to shift and make sure that instead we can kind of monetize their anger
now, because now they'll be talking about it.

529
00:44:09,300 --> 00:44:12,300
They'll be showing the project.

530
00:44:12,300 --> 00:44:18,300
No one will really know, like, are they actually – do they actually have a thought
about it?

531
00:44:18,300 --> 00:44:20,300
I mean, think about it like this.

532
00:44:20,300 --> 00:44:33,300
What a lot of these people are trying to say – and this is – I don't know how many
people this is going to end up being, but the critics of this – which I knew this
would be controversial, this stoches coin reassignment concept.

533
00:44:33,300 --> 00:44:40,300
But what these people often are saying is two things at once, whereas on one hand
they're saying this project is a terrible project.

534
00:44:40,300 --> 00:44:42,300
It's going to go to zero, and it's completely worthless.

535
00:44:43,300 --> 00:44:51,300
We went from a world where this project didn't exist to a world where a completely
worthless project is now coming to existence, worth zero.

536
00:44:51,300 --> 00:44:54,300
So it's going to start at zero, and it's going to be worth zero.

537
00:44:54,300 --> 00:44:57,300
And this is basically what these people are saying on one hand.

538
00:44:57,300 --> 00:45:00,300
But then on the other hand they're saying, wait a minute, wait a minute.

539
00:45:00,300 --> 00:45:02,300
They're kind of representing Satoshi.

540
00:45:02,300 --> 00:45:06,300
They're sort of trying to speak on Satoshi's behalf, like as if they were his lawyer
or something.

541
00:45:06,300 --> 00:45:08,300
Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.

542
00:45:09,300 --> 00:45:11,300
That you're stealing.

543
00:45:11,300 --> 00:45:12,300
You know what I mean?

544
00:45:12,300 --> 00:45:17,300
So they have to equivocate on do they think this is a good idea overall, like
objectively.

545
00:45:17,300 --> 00:45:25,300
So when they say they care about Satoshi's coins, they're saying that they think the
idea is actually very valuable, and I'm depriving Satoshi of an extremely valuable
piece of property.

546
00:45:25,300 --> 00:45:28,300
So I tricked them into shilling the idea indirectly.

547
00:45:28,300 --> 00:45:31,300
I'm not sure how many of them will consciously realize that.

548
00:45:31,300 --> 00:45:40,300
But I think there is a subconscious – I think some people are kind of grappled with
the fact that can you steal something that you didn't even know existed like one
hour ago?

549
00:45:40,300 --> 00:45:43,300
And I think some people are going to grapple with that.

550
00:45:43,300 --> 00:45:47,300
But like if it's non-claimed by Satoshi, then it probably doesn't belong to him.

551
00:45:47,300 --> 00:45:52,300
If this happened on the BTC chain, then that would be awful, right?

552
00:45:52,300 --> 00:45:53,300
That would be very clear.

553
00:45:53,300 --> 00:45:54,300
Right. That's the thing.

554
00:45:54,300 --> 00:45:58,300
This is not the BTC, so nothing can take Satoshi's coins.

555
00:45:58,300 --> 00:46:03,300
Or squatting, like theft or grave robbing, one or the other.

556
00:46:03,300 --> 00:46:04,300
Right.

557
00:46:04,300 --> 00:46:05,300
But in this case –

558
00:46:05,300 --> 00:46:06,300
It's amusing.

559
00:46:06,300 --> 00:46:09,300
So here's a funny fact to think about, by the way.

560
00:46:09,300 --> 00:46:17,300
What if this whole fork launches, everything's fine, but then a month later the
remainder of Satoshi's coins get moved?

561
00:46:17,300 --> 00:46:19,300
That would be really bizarre.

562
00:46:19,300 --> 00:46:20,300
Yeah.

563
00:46:20,300 --> 00:46:21,300
That would make me concerned.

564
00:46:21,300 --> 00:46:28,300
So if that happened and this person proved that they were Satoshi Nakamoto and
claimed those coins and then they wanted it back.

565
00:46:28,300 --> 00:46:31,300
They said, whatever you haven't spent, can you just give it to me, please?

566
00:46:31,300 --> 00:46:32,300
There's my coins.

567
00:46:32,300 --> 00:46:34,300
I honestly think you would have to.

568
00:46:34,300 --> 00:46:44,300
Yeah, because I think – actually the premise I'm working off of is that Satoshi has
indirectly consented to the transaction in a way.

569
00:46:44,300 --> 00:46:46,300
I know a lot of people won't accept that.

570
00:46:46,300 --> 00:46:48,300
It's like a speak now or forever hold your peace.

571
00:46:48,300 --> 00:46:56,300
Because I'm trying to say something like either it's possible to improve Bitcoin so
substantially that we flip it and become the number one coin.

572
00:46:56,300 --> 00:47:00,300
Which, again, I don't think is likely, but I think is something like 10 percent
possible.

573
00:47:00,300 --> 00:47:09,300
So I think – I mean I'm starting to get a little – this is what we can talk about is
like why do we need a hedge against BTC failing?

574
00:47:10,300 --> 00:47:20,300
I mean you and I know, but a lot of the BTC maximalists will be thinking like, well,
isn't it already perfect and it's immortal and it will never go down and blah, blah,
blah.

575
00:47:20,300 --> 00:47:27,300
So I'm personally getting a little nervous and I think that we need like a hedge
against failure of BTC, which is why I'm creating this.

576
00:47:27,300 --> 00:47:36,300
Now, if it pays off and I'm right, then all that will mean is that the project, the
BTC project was vulnerable to replacement this whole time.

577
00:47:36,300 --> 00:47:42,300
And he's kind of lucky that I replaced it and it's this and not something else, and
he still has half of his coins.

578
00:47:42,300 --> 00:47:51,300
So I'm kind of saying – I'm kind of telling Satoshi like, listen, for a 50 percent
cut, I'll sell you this option where you can only benefit.

579
00:47:51,300 --> 00:47:55,300
Either this project is a total failure and nothing happens to you. It's free.

580
00:47:55,300 --> 00:48:01,300
Or if I save your 1.1 million coins, we get half.

581
00:48:02,300 --> 00:48:07,300
So yeah, it's really like kind of a Pareto improvement if you think about it.

582
00:48:07,300 --> 00:48:12,300
But I don't expect – the Twitter mob is just the Twitter mob.

583
00:48:12,300 --> 00:48:24,300
And the extent to which they talk about the project, they are actually affirming
that it has value.

584
00:48:25,300 --> 00:48:33,300
Yes, or at least it's valuable to – it has value or has threatening capabilities for
whatever reason.

585
00:48:33,300 --> 00:48:36,300
If everything were fine and BTC – sorry to interrupt.

586
00:48:36,300 --> 00:48:43,300
But if everything were super fine in BTC, then this project would have a zero
percent chance of succeeding and there would be no reason to talk about it.

587
00:48:43,300 --> 00:48:45,300
There would be no reason for people to weigh in on it.

588
00:48:45,300 --> 00:48:47,300
But we all know they probably will.

589
00:48:47,300 --> 00:48:48,300
Yes.

590
00:48:48,300 --> 00:48:49,300
They will talk about it.

591
00:48:49,300 --> 00:48:55,300
If Bitcoin had a 95 percent chance of succeeding, there also would be very little
controversy.

592
00:48:55,300 --> 00:48:58,300
But it's just the fact that it's there.

593
00:48:58,300 --> 00:49:04,300
But it's like – and that's one of those things with like I think – not to go back on
the eCash name.

594
00:49:04,300 --> 00:49:10,300
Which by the way, if you had to fight it out for it, who's going to be eCash and
who's going to be eCash Cash?

595
00:49:10,300 --> 00:49:11,300
Because –

596
00:49:11,300 --> 00:49:13,300
Yes, that would be funny, of course.

597
00:49:13,300 --> 00:49:18,300
I don't think – part of the reason why I'm doing this eCash thing is because I
didn't want to put Bitcoin in the name.

598
00:49:18,300 --> 00:49:23,300
I thought about putting like Bitcoin Arena or Bitcoin Drivechain or something weird
like that.

599
00:49:23,300 --> 00:49:25,300
But I think it's bad to fight over the brand.

600
00:49:25,300 --> 00:49:32,300
So I didn't want to take – I thought when I was naming eCash that I wasn't even –
but I mean this is why I say I think it makes the eCash people look even worse.

601
00:49:32,300 --> 00:49:40,300
Because I'm telling you the truth is that I really looked and I thought – I made an
honest attempt to see like what is this.

602
00:49:40,300 --> 00:49:44,300
And I just thought, oh, this is just some 160 market cap nothing coin.

603
00:49:44,300 --> 00:49:45,300
And I didn't even know.

604
00:49:45,300 --> 00:49:48,300
And I'm like a leading expert on Bitcoin.

605
00:49:48,300 --> 00:49:53,300
And I had no idea that even – I knew that Omri did ABC.

606
00:49:53,300 --> 00:50:00,300
And I had no idea that it was – so I mean I'm just saying like I'm not saying that
that –

607
00:50:02,042 --> 00:50:18,042
I'm not saying that that automatically means that they have no chance. But I think
like that's going to be really tough. So I feel bad. I do feel bad about that. But I
think like, yeah, that's not – this speaks to the – the coin market cap is cause and
effect, unfortunately.

608
00:50:18,042 --> 00:50:29,042
But the thing is to me it's just funny to me that it was a – it was accident. And it
is funny that I don't know where the market caps of both coins are going to be in
the next few – whenever this thing launches.

609
00:50:49,042 --> 00:50:59,042
It's like God's playing tricks on us through these coincidences to make – just make
a funny – it's a funny situation. It just makes me laugh. So thank you guys for
making me laugh.

610
00:50:59,042 --> 00:51:17,042
So we got this split. So I think one of those concerns – and I think Jonathan
Silverblood – I don't know if you've heard of him. He's a Bitcoin Cash guy. I think
I saw him post some sort of objection to the Satoshi repo, so to speak.

611
00:51:18,042 --> 00:51:34,042
Basically saying if they can decide to repossess those coins, they can do anyone's
coins. And so let's just take that as a question, I guess. Why – so first of all,
it's not a repossession because it's not a possession to begin with.

612
00:51:34,042 --> 00:51:48,042
But it seems like most forks that I've seen just seem to copy-paste the whole supply
over with ease in the whole – what should we call it? The distribution. They
copy-paste the distribution.

613
00:51:49,042 --> 00:51:59,042
Yeah, it goes right over. The only – there were a few forks where this didn't
happen. And so one of them was – I don't know if you remember Steam from back in the
day.

614
00:52:00,042 --> 00:52:01,042
I do.

615
00:52:01,042 --> 00:52:11,042
When Justin Sun bought Steemit, the main website, and just tried to take over the
chain. And basically they had a chain split at that point into Hive, which is the
surviving fork.

616
00:52:12,042 --> 00:52:16,042
It would be like if Bitcoin died and Bitcoin Cash was the only one that's still
around kind of thing.

617
00:52:16,042 --> 00:52:27,042
But as part of that, the reason why they split is because they had a delegated
proof-of-stake system, so they couldn't have their own – they couldn't have a
sovereign chain by having Justin Sun still have the same coins.

618
00:52:28,042 --> 00:52:36,042
So they took his coins, again the attacker coins, and they turned them into a DAO
that would be paid for development and stuff like that.

619
00:52:36,042 --> 00:52:40,042
But it was like a survival necessity to repo those coins.

620
00:52:41,042 --> 00:52:48,042
So what about this decision of like you're repoing some of them, but then why still
the rest of the coins?

621
00:52:49,042 --> 00:52:53,042
Like why not all of Satoshi's coins? And also why not just all the coins?

622
00:52:53,042 --> 00:52:57,042
Like literally the entire supply and then just give them away with a faucet or
pre-sale.

623
00:52:58,042 --> 00:53:09,042
Like why keep some of the existing – 95% or 99% of the existing UTXO distribution,
but only in this one case sort of break that rule?

624
00:53:10,042 --> 00:53:16,042
Well, I do agree that it's sort of like once you take one coin, you have kind of
crossed the line to some extent.

625
00:53:16,042 --> 00:53:18,042
But I don't think it's to that much of an extent.

626
00:53:19,042 --> 00:53:28,042
Like can't you just say that you're going to do something just because you think
it's a good – you weighed all the considerations and you had to make a judgment call
and you just stand by it?

627
00:53:29,042 --> 00:53:40,042
Like why does everything have to be like – like aren't there other options other
than like okay, if you take half of Satoshi's coins, then you can take any coins,
you can take no coins.

628
00:53:41,042 --> 00:53:45,042
It's like I don't see why it has to be all or nothing.

629
00:53:46,042 --> 00:53:52,042
Like what we're doing is producing open source software and giving it away for free.

630
00:53:53,042 --> 00:53:58,042
And I think it's very good. In fact, I think it's some of the best open source
software out there.

631
00:53:59,042 --> 00:54:02,042
So it's like what we've produced is much better than the Lightning Network.

632
00:54:03,042 --> 00:54:06,042
It's much better than having – it's much better than living in a world of altcoins.

633
00:54:06,042 --> 00:54:12,042
So like having a Zcash-based L2 Drivechain is just better than having Zcash itself.

634
00:54:13,042 --> 00:54:18,042
We have EVM, but I discontinued it because it wasn't that interesting, but we could
turn it back on.

635
00:54:19,042 --> 00:54:20,042
We have an EVM, Ethereum L2.

636
00:54:21,042 --> 00:54:28,042
So we like built a bunch of stuff that is the best in the world and we're giving it
away for free.

637
00:54:29,042 --> 00:54:40,042
And it can scale to 8 billion users and process all the transactions on earth and
collect transaction fees from them and give miners hundreds of billions of dollars a
year in revenue.

638
00:54:41,042 --> 00:54:43,042
So we're doing all this stuff and giving it away for free.

639
00:54:44,042 --> 00:54:48,042
And just the way that anyone would be able to finance that in an honest way.

640
00:54:49,042 --> 00:54:55,042
Because I'm also not comfortable going to investors and saying, listen, if we do a
really good job, you won't get any more ROI than that.

641
00:54:55,042 --> 00:54:58,042
I really would prefer to go to investors and say, listen, here's the project.

642
00:54:59,042 --> 00:55:00,042
If we do a really good job, you'll make a lot of money.

643
00:55:01,042 --> 00:55:07,042
But if we do a terrible job, then the project will suck and you'll lose your money.

644
00:55:08,042 --> 00:55:19,042
So at the end of the day, we're going to produce all this stuff that's open source
that even BTC could use for free if it wanted to.

645
00:55:20,042 --> 00:55:21,042
It probably should use.

646
00:55:22,042 --> 00:55:23,042
It probably should use. Right. Exactly.

647
00:55:24,042 --> 00:55:26,042
So we're going to have to, but they won't.

648
00:55:27,042 --> 00:55:32,042
And so we're going to have to deal with the cultural, the defective culture of BTC.

649
00:55:33,042 --> 00:55:36,042
And that's why the hard fork exists at all.

650
00:55:37,042 --> 00:55:40,042
It's because the BTC culture is deranged.

651
00:55:41,042 --> 00:55:42,042
Yeah. Well, let's talk practically about that.

652
00:55:43,042 --> 00:55:56,042
So when we last talked a couple of years ago or something like that, the idea was to
launch this as a soft fork on Bitcoin and launch Drivechains, I should say, and then
go from there.

653
00:55:57,042 --> 00:56:01,042
And what was the barrier to making that happen?

654
00:56:02,042 --> 00:56:11,042
So first of all, for a soft fork, what percentage of the hash rate would you have
needed to have it not split off to a different fork?

655
00:56:12,042 --> 00:56:16,042
So a 51% hash rate can activate any soft fork.

656
00:56:17,042 --> 00:56:21,042
And I invented this thing, CUSF, the Core Untouched Soft Fork.

657
00:56:22,042 --> 00:56:24,042
So it doesn't even have to go through a Bitcoin core.

658
00:56:25,042 --> 00:56:30,042
But the problem is that it's not just about whether or not you activate an opcode.

659
00:56:31,042 --> 00:56:41,042
That's really, that would be like saying, if we just need to do, all we need to do
is pass a law, like lowering the speed limit on the highway.

660
00:56:42,042 --> 00:56:44,042
It's the real thing is in people's minds.

661
00:56:45,042 --> 00:56:47,042
That's the real substance is the culture.

662
00:56:48,042 --> 00:56:56,042
And so, you know, on the highway, people just speed and there are certain highways
and there are certain highway intersections where like one highway is kind of, have
you ever had this happen?

663
00:56:57,042 --> 00:57:04,042
One highway is like the slow highway. But then as soon as everyone gets onto a
different one, it's like off to the races, you know, it's like, but they're both
like three lane.

664
00:57:05,042 --> 00:57:10,042
So sometimes people speed and sometimes people speed a lot and sometimes people
speed only a little.

665
00:57:11,042 --> 00:57:13,042
And it just it just speaks to the culture.

666
00:57:13,042 --> 00:57:20,042
Like if you go to a different, you know, like you try littering and people don't
really litter in like Colorado or Japan.

667
00:57:21,042 --> 00:57:25,042
But then, you know, in New Jersey or whatever, like people litter.

668
00:57:25,042 --> 00:57:32,042
So. So it would be like saying we got the op code, but it's that's not really about
it.

669
00:57:33,042 --> 00:57:42,042
We should live in a world where all the Bitcoiners are very excited to activate
BIP300 because they know it's a completely safe opt in reversible soft fork.

670
00:57:43,042 --> 00:57:52,042
And they know that it will let them get, you know, something that's much better than
the Lightning Network, which is large block optional L2 Drivechain.

671
00:57:52,042 --> 00:58:05,042
And they know it will let them get Zcash privacy and they know it will let them take
all these altcoins and all this PhD research that everyone else has been doing and
just take it and say we have all this stuff and it will bring back competition among
developers.

672
00:58:06,042 --> 00:58:11,042
And, you know, so that you have there's no developer capture problem.

673
00:58:12,042 --> 00:58:18,042
And so it's like, OK, no matter what our developers do, it doesn't matter because
now we have like two or three different competing L2s that are competing for our
money.

674
00:58:18,042 --> 00:58:27,042
And there would be like Vitalik would be running like a root stock Drivechain and it
would be like EVM and Roger Ver would be running like a large block L2 of Bitcoin.

675
00:58:28,042 --> 00:58:32,042
Everyone would be in the same. So people should be like, you know, champing at the
BIP.

676
00:58:33,042 --> 00:58:38,042
They should be like screaming and cheering that like they can't possibly wait any
longer.

677
00:58:39,042 --> 00:58:45,042
And the miners as well. They should be saying like, we can't wait to collect the
merge mine transaction fees from all these chains.

678
00:58:45,042 --> 00:58:51,042
But everyone should be like, you know, beating a path down to like to get to get to
this as quickly as possible.

679
00:58:52,042 --> 00:58:55,042
And even the developers could be like, listen, we're not calm. We can't review all
this code.

680
00:58:56,042 --> 00:58:59,042
We got to push this stuff into L2s. This is what they used to say about the
Lightning Network.

681
00:59:00,042 --> 00:59:02,042
They said we don't want to be responsible for all this stuff.

682
00:59:03,042 --> 00:59:09,042
We just want to make a simple change on L1 where all it is is basically SPV plus
counting to 13000.

683
00:59:10,042 --> 00:59:13,042
And we're just going to use this OPNAP5 and we'll just ship this one chain out the
door.

684
00:59:14,042 --> 00:59:18,042
And then whenever people come to us and say, oh, what about CTV? What about TX hash?

685
00:59:19,042 --> 00:59:21,042
What about great whatever, blah, blah, blah. What about quantum?

686
00:59:22,042 --> 00:59:28,042
We can just tell them good to go do it on L2 first and then see how that works out
and then maybe come back.

687
00:59:29,042 --> 00:59:38,042
So everyone should be literally trying as hard as possible to get BIP300 activated
on BTC in a sort of a sane world.

688
00:59:39,042 --> 00:59:44,042
But you see, so it's not really about like, it's just the culture just isn't there,
which I accept.

689
00:59:45,042 --> 00:59:47,042
And that's the other reason about why are people criticizing this project.

690
00:59:48,042 --> 00:59:53,042
It makes no sense because I'm just accepting that they either sort of like, you
know, they don't want it on BTC.

691
00:59:54,042 --> 01:00:00,042
They can't do it somewhere else. So these are the irrationalities that I think on a
subconscious level people will pick up on.

692
01:00:01,042 --> 01:00:05,042
Which is why more people will probably be talking about this idea in the future.

693
01:00:05,042 --> 01:00:12,042
Well, so was there just not a lot of positive response for Bitcoin?

694
01:00:13,042 --> 01:00:14,042
Individually. Oh, sorry.

695
01:00:15,042 --> 01:00:23,042
Yeah, because if you look at it, like Bitcoin has undergone a series of changes
since 2016, 17, whenever.

696
01:00:24,042 --> 01:00:30,042
Where SegWit was highly controversial in some camps, but then that got added.

697
01:00:30,042 --> 01:00:35,042
And then was it Taproot got added, a few other little things got added here and
there.

698
01:00:36,042 --> 01:00:40,042
And it didn't seem like there's much controversy around those things that happened.

699
01:00:41,042 --> 01:00:52,042
And of course, the Bitcoin nuts world, right, seems to say that it's basically like
the core developers, the tinkering that gets into the roadmap and gets implemented.

700
01:00:53,042 --> 01:01:02,042
And so it's not like, I think that something like Drivechains is not infeasible from
like a technical scope or risk.

701
01:01:03,042 --> 01:01:06,042
Or it's not like, wow, this is so much different from the things that have been
done.

702
01:01:07,042 --> 01:01:14,042
People have done these changes, done things like ending the OPR return limits for an
individual transaction.

703
01:01:15,042 --> 01:01:19,042
Things to make way for, like SegWit and things were like to prepare for lightning
allegedly.

704
01:01:19,042 --> 01:01:22,042
And then, you know, Taproot and stuff like that.

705
01:01:23,042 --> 01:01:30,042
And then the insinuation was that the OPR return limit being removed was to prepare
for Citrea.

706
01:01:31,042 --> 01:01:36,042
And so there's a bunch of very similar things like that have happened.

707
01:01:37,042 --> 01:01:47,042
So what is the key difference in why BIP300, you didn't see as viable to, like they
didn't have the support to be a viable soft fork to Bitcoin?

708
01:01:48,042 --> 01:01:50,042
Well, first of all, of course, SegWit was very controversial.

709
01:01:51,042 --> 01:01:54,042
I mean, as you know, and it had to activate in like this weird way.

710
01:01:55,042 --> 01:02:06,042
And then I think Taproot was kind of like a weird echo of that where it was a
reshadow, maybe is a better word, where miners realized that they had been blamed
for how slow SegWit activated.

711
01:02:07,042 --> 01:02:09,042
So they kind of rushed to activate Taproot.

712
01:02:10,042 --> 01:02:11,042
Since then, we've had nothing.

713
01:02:11,042 --> 01:02:12,042
So there's been a huge slowdown.

714
01:02:13,042 --> 01:02:17,042
Like in the first seven years of Bitcoin, there were something like 14 different
soft forks.

715
01:02:18,042 --> 01:02:19,042
There were every six months.

716
01:02:20,042 --> 01:02:25,042
Not with that regularity, but there were a lot of the rate, the average rate.

717
01:02:26,042 --> 01:02:31,042
And then with SegWit, it took 20 months from when it was first proposed when it
finally activated on the network.

718
01:02:32,042 --> 01:02:36,042
And then with Taproot, it took 46 months from when it was proposed to when it
finally activated on the network.

719
01:02:37,042 --> 01:02:39,042
And since then, there hasn't been anything that is activated.

720
01:02:39,042 --> 01:02:43,042
And there have been many attempts by other people to activate.

721
01:02:44,042 --> 01:02:45,042
So Jeremy Rubin tried to activate CTV.

722
01:02:46,042 --> 01:02:48,042
He gave up after less than a day.

723
01:02:49,042 --> 01:02:51,042
Wow, that's brutal.

724
01:02:52,042 --> 01:02:53,042
You should have him on.

725
01:02:54,042 --> 01:02:55,042
It's an interesting story.

726
01:02:56,042 --> 01:02:58,042
And then there was OP_CAT.

727
01:02:59,042 --> 01:03:05,042
I think OP_CAT is actually the smoking gun that proves that the culture is defective
and the process is defective.

728
01:03:06,042 --> 01:03:07,042
But I mean, there's plenty of other things to say.

729
01:03:07,042 --> 01:03:13,042
So before I get to OP_CAT, he was like preparing.

730
01:03:14,042 --> 01:03:15,042
He prepared Taproot.

731
01:03:16,042 --> 01:03:27,042
But then he said like he had made these numerous comments here and there that he was
too emotionally exhausted to discuss the activation of it because it was too
contentious.

732
01:03:28,042 --> 01:03:31,042
Yeah, I know. I actually it's funny you laugh at that because I actually also was
laughing at it.

733
01:03:32,042 --> 01:03:34,042
Like I was thinking to myself, like, I don't know when it's funny.

734
01:03:34,042 --> 01:03:35,042
It is sad.

735
01:03:36,042 --> 01:03:42,042
But I was also sad in several ways where it's like, OK, first of all, the emotional
oppression is very strong.

736
01:03:43,042 --> 01:03:44,042
And so that is real.

737
01:03:45,042 --> 01:03:47,042
But then I was thinking, I think this was like last year or something.

738
01:03:48,042 --> 01:03:50,042
I was thinking like I was sort of thinking and then chuckling to myself.

739
01:03:51,042 --> 01:03:53,042
And I was like, you know, there's a real war going on in Ukraine.

740
01:03:54,042 --> 01:03:58,042
And like people, 18 year old kids are getting like blown up and like losing limbs
and dying and stuff.

741
01:03:59,042 --> 01:04:03,042
And I was like, but Peter can't like I was kind of this is kind of a little bit of a
joke.

742
01:04:04,042 --> 01:04:07,042
Because I understand exactly where where Peter's coming from.

743
01:04:08,042 --> 01:04:11,042
But I do. I was kind of thinking like, oh, you know, the horror of it all.

744
01:04:12,042 --> 01:04:13,042
Like my job is so hard to have to deal with activation.

745
01:04:14,042 --> 01:04:23,042
That reminds me of a Chris Rock joke from back in the day where he talked about
Nelson Mandela spending so much time in prison and terrible conditions making it
through.

746
01:04:24,042 --> 01:04:27,042
And then he was within like something like six months of being out.

747
01:04:27,042 --> 01:04:28,042
He got divorced.

748
01:04:29,042 --> 01:04:31,042
He was just like he could handle all that stuff.

749
01:04:32,042 --> 01:04:33,042
But within six months, he's like, I can't take this anymore.

750
01:04:34,042 --> 01:04:35,042
This is worse than prison.

751
01:04:36,042 --> 01:04:37,042
And he did that.

752
01:04:38,042 --> 01:04:39,042
So it kind of I mean, obviously.

753
01:04:40,042 --> 01:04:41,042
Yeah, it's a real prison.

754
01:04:42,042 --> 01:04:46,042
Having like dealt with I mean, I've been in stuck my nose in a few different crypto
governance wars.

755
01:04:47,042 --> 01:04:49,042
And it's well, it can't be taxing.

756
01:04:50,042 --> 01:04:54,042
I don't know about like having your house bombed type stuff, but it is a pain.

757
01:04:55,042 --> 01:04:57,042
I understand being like, yeah, especially who needs it.

758
01:04:58,042 --> 01:05:01,042
If you don't, if you don't, if you can do without it, then why not do without it?

759
01:05:03,042 --> 01:05:10,042
Yeah, but yeah, but this is just because for those who don't know, he's like an
extremely respected high status, like technical person.

760
01:05:11,042 --> 01:05:12,042
He's a very nice person.

761
01:05:13,042 --> 01:05:16,042
So it's kind of like the idea that's very demoralizing that he is like a sort of
leader.

762
01:05:17,042 --> 01:05:20,042
Even the big blockers like don't really say much about it.

763
01:05:21,042 --> 01:05:22,042
They disagree with some of the right.

764
01:05:22,042 --> 01:05:24,042
But he's like a very polite kind of guy, too.

765
01:05:25,042 --> 01:05:26,042
So everyone.

766
01:05:26,042 --> 01:05:29,042
But then it's kind of like this is the thing with the bitter comes the sweet.

767
01:05:29,042 --> 01:05:30,042
If you're going to be Mr.

768
01:05:30,042 --> 01:05:34,042
Nice, polite guy, then it's like you're participating in nothing getting done.

769
01:05:35,042 --> 01:05:36,042
So I don't know.

770
01:05:36,042 --> 01:05:37,042
I'm not trying to I'm just throwing it out there.

771
01:05:38,042 --> 01:05:42,042
So I'll get up cat is unless you have something really important.

772
01:05:42,042 --> 01:05:43,042
No, I'll go to that.

773
01:05:44,042 --> 01:05:47,042
So I'll get is like 13 lines of code.

774
01:05:47,042 --> 01:05:50,042
All it does is take X and Y and returns X, Y.

775
01:05:50,042 --> 01:05:52,042
You know, it really doesn't do that much.

776
01:05:52,042 --> 01:05:55,042
It was in the original version of Bitcoin for a long time.

777
01:05:56,042 --> 01:05:57,042
I mean, it'd be at some point.

778
01:05:59,042 --> 01:06:03,042
I mean, 2009, which, by the way, it was in the YouTube live chat here.

779
01:06:03,042 --> 01:06:08,042
There was a joke about what we call this Bitcoin for about Bitcoin starts vision.

780
01:06:08,042 --> 01:06:10,042
The new. Yeah, that's when you get to.

781
01:06:10,042 --> 01:06:11,042
I like that.

782
01:06:11,042 --> 01:06:12,042
You get funny. I like.

783
01:06:12,042 --> 01:06:15,042
Then you get to be also BSV and compete with another one.

784
01:06:16,042 --> 01:06:17,042
That's hidden.

785
01:06:17,042 --> 01:06:18,042
It's like eCash starts vision.

786
01:06:18,042 --> 01:06:19,042
You do eCash SV.

787
01:06:20,042 --> 01:06:21,042
I'll do like doesn't be my next.

788
01:06:21,042 --> 01:06:22,042
But you have to do.

789
01:06:22,042 --> 01:06:23,042
Yeah, next one should be BSV.

790
01:06:24,042 --> 01:06:25,042
Bitcoin starts vision.

791
01:06:26,042 --> 01:06:27,042
Is there any way of making it even funnier?

792
01:06:27,042 --> 01:06:29,042
Like is there other than the different B word?

793
01:06:29,042 --> 01:06:30,042
Like, I don't know.

794
01:06:30,042 --> 01:06:31,042
I think of something funny.

795
01:06:32,042 --> 01:06:33,042
By cash.

796
01:06:33,042 --> 01:06:34,042
Be cash.

797
01:06:34,042 --> 01:06:35,042
Be cash starts.

798
01:06:35,042 --> 01:06:36,042
That's funny.

799
01:06:36,042 --> 01:06:37,042
Be cash starts.

800
01:06:38,042 --> 01:06:41,042
I mean, at a certain point, someone really some online troll.

801
01:06:41,042 --> 01:06:42,042
I'm going to have to call it that.

802
01:06:42,042 --> 01:06:43,042
They're going to make it.

803
01:06:44,042 --> 01:06:45,042
Because a troll will do it otherwise.

804
01:06:46,042 --> 01:06:48,042
Yeah, someone's already registering the domain probably.

805
01:06:50,042 --> 01:06:52,042
But yeah, some of these are such like only.

806
01:06:53,042 --> 01:06:54,042
These are like inside jokes at this point.

807
01:06:55,042 --> 01:06:56,042
Of course.

808
01:06:56,042 --> 01:06:57,042
But they're very good.

809
01:06:57,042 --> 01:06:59,042
But so OP_CAT basically just got completely stonewalled.

810
01:07:00,042 --> 01:07:01,042
What does that look like, by the way?

811
01:07:02,042 --> 01:07:03,042
OP_CAT is very, very, very tame.

812
01:07:04,042 --> 01:07:05,042
And a lot of people thought it's also very useful.

813
01:07:06,042 --> 01:07:09,042
And it's also, again, it's one of these op-nop opcodes.

814
01:07:10,042 --> 01:07:12,042
So it's very, very easy to just say.

815
01:07:12,042 --> 01:07:14,042
Like if you say we're going to use op-nop 6 as OP_CAT.

816
01:07:15,042 --> 01:07:19,042
You can very easily later ship a version that just says never use op-nop 6 again.

817
01:07:20,042 --> 01:07:26,042
And this effectively turns it off and restores the original operation of the network
pre-activation.

818
01:07:27,042 --> 01:07:30,042
So these are all like opt-in, ignorable, reversible.

819
01:07:31,042 --> 01:07:36,042
And it's kind of just like what on earth more do people want?

820
01:07:37,042 --> 01:07:40,042
But then on top of that, there was people like Udi tweeting.

821
01:07:40,042 --> 01:07:43,042
I believe this was at the beginning of 2024.

822
01:07:44,042 --> 01:07:46,042
Someone can look this up and find exactly what it is.

823
01:07:47,042 --> 01:07:53,042
But it was something like he said something like, well, when OP_CAT activates later
this year with no controversy,

824
01:07:54,042 --> 01:07:56,042
he's like, I'll be accepting everyone's apology or something like that.

825
01:07:57,042 --> 01:07:58,042
I probably butchered the quote.

826
01:07:59,042 --> 01:08:04,042
But basically the point of the quote is he's very confident that it would have
activated by the end of some year.

827
01:08:05,042 --> 01:08:06,042
I think it might have been 2023.

828
01:08:07,042 --> 01:08:08,042
I think it was 2024.

829
01:08:08,042 --> 01:08:11,042
And the narrator, he did not, in fact, accept anyone's apology.

830
01:08:12,042 --> 01:08:13,042
Yeah, exactly. And it did not activate.

831
01:08:14,042 --> 01:08:15,042
And the question is why?

832
01:08:16,042 --> 01:08:20,042
And I think the answer is everyone, you know, there's courage is in very short
supply.

833
01:08:21,042 --> 01:08:27,042
Everyone, whenever you propose an idea, everyone kind of is vaguely aware of the
fact that no ideas have gotten through.

834
01:08:28,042 --> 01:08:34,042
And people are sort of nervous about like, what will other people think if I get on
board with this?

835
01:08:34,042 --> 01:08:42,042
So actually, it's this weird kind of stigma for proposing anything new, even
something like OP_CAT, which effectively does almost nothing.

836
01:08:43,042 --> 01:08:51,042
And I think, again, the smoking gun is also this Op return drama, because the Op
return drama does effectively almost nothing.

837
01:08:52,042 --> 01:08:57,042
Because what Luke Dashjr.'s position is that he's OK with certain images being in
the blockchain,

838
01:08:57,042 --> 01:09:08,042
but he's not OK with them being on a tiny portion of the mempools that, you know,
are not receiving transactions and are not actually generating blocks.

839
01:09:09,042 --> 01:09:15,042
So these are like dead end mempool, dead end nodes and dead end mempools that these
images would be in temporarily.

840
01:09:16,042 --> 01:09:17,042
But he's fine with them being in the blockchain.

841
01:09:18,042 --> 01:09:21,042
And this is like a complete waste of time for anyone to talk about this at all.

842
01:09:22,042 --> 01:09:25,042
But we've been talking about it for two years and it's just all a big waste of time.

843
01:09:25,042 --> 01:09:27,042
But this is how low we've fallen.

844
01:09:28,042 --> 01:09:31,042
I will agree with that on Luke's thing.

845
01:09:32,042 --> 01:09:36,042
Because Luke, so BIP, was it BIP 100ers?

846
01:09:37,042 --> 01:09:38,042
110, I think.

847
01:09:39,042 --> 01:09:41,042
Whatever it is now. I sort of have a side eye on that.

848
01:09:42,042 --> 01:09:47,042
I even called it Bitcoin's caveman war because of just how much like, you know,
Neanderthal thinking seemed to go into it.

849
01:09:48,042 --> 01:09:55,042
That group does have a lot of the same, like, a lot of the freedom money kind of
virtue signals that appeal to someone like me.

850
01:09:56,042 --> 01:10:08,042
So in terms of that with the core versus nots debate type thing, I kind of like
emotionally went with the nots people and intellectually went with the core people
more than the other.

851
01:10:09,042 --> 01:10:12,042
It's a very good mix because the nots people are correct.

852
01:10:13,042 --> 01:10:15,042
The nots people are correct about a lot of things.

853
01:10:15,042 --> 01:10:18,042
They just, unfortunately, they picked this opporturn issue, which is a total losing
issue.

854
01:10:19,042 --> 01:10:20,042
I don't know why they picked this issue.

855
01:10:21,042 --> 01:10:27,042
But they could have, if they just wanted to say the core is corrupt and that there's
no accountability and there's no oversight and there's no way.

856
01:10:28,042 --> 01:10:29,042
All that is perfectly true.

857
01:10:30,042 --> 01:10:31,042
Yeah, absolutely.

858
01:10:32,042 --> 01:10:35,042
So when we talk about like practical things, right, we're talking about social
consensus here.

859
01:10:36,042 --> 01:10:39,042
So, but in terms of practical, how do you get into the chain?

860
01:10:40,042 --> 01:10:43,042
Is you get enough miners to basically run it?

861
01:10:43,042 --> 01:10:45,042
Now, what's that process like?

862
01:10:46,042 --> 01:10:52,042
It seems, I mean, it seems like because there's not enough social consensus, you
didn't feel confident in getting miner support.

863
01:10:53,042 --> 01:11:03,042
Is there any kind of an avenue to go directly to mining pools and things and say,
look, activate this, it'll be worth it and just try to lobby miners to just do this?

864
01:11:04,042 --> 01:11:08,042
Or do you think miners, which is kind of 2017 era Bitcoin politics, right?

865
01:11:09,042 --> 01:11:15,042
Or is it in 2026 now, miners are just super reactive to things.

866
01:11:16,042 --> 01:11:19,042
They're not going to run something without broad consensus, whatever that means.

867
01:11:20,042 --> 01:11:24,042
That's certainly the case, which is that a lot of them are worried about things like
optics or whatever.

868
01:11:25,042 --> 01:11:28,042
I think many of them will be going bankrupt because of their preoccupation with
this.

869
01:11:29,042 --> 01:11:30,042
I've been saying this for many years.

870
01:11:31,042 --> 01:11:32,042
I think I've been right the entire time.

871
01:11:33,042 --> 01:11:35,042
But yeah, I think there's a couple of facets to it.

872
01:11:35,042 --> 01:11:38,042
One is the end miner.

873
01:11:39,042 --> 01:11:43,042
So there's a lot of when we say miner, we're talking about like one word, but
actually there's many different things.

874
01:11:44,042 --> 01:11:48,042
So like at the end of the day, there's someone who owns an ASIC and they plug it
into their data center.

875
01:11:49,042 --> 01:11:56,042
And they may have spent millions of dollars and they spend all this money on
electricity and cooling and whatnot.

876
01:11:59,042 --> 01:12:01,042
That person is a miner.

877
01:12:02,042 --> 01:12:06,042
And to those people, they don't know that much about Bitcoin actually.

878
01:12:07,042 --> 01:12:09,042
And they may not even be Bitcoiners because they just point at the pool.

879
01:12:10,042 --> 01:12:11,042
The pool pays them.

880
01:12:12,042 --> 01:12:15,042
They sell and they have to finance all this electricity and whatnot.

881
01:12:16,042 --> 01:12:23,042
The other thing that's recently happened over the last two or three years is now,
ever since the large language models, those people have an out.

882
01:12:24,042 --> 01:12:38,042
So those people, like the end hasher, the ASIC owner, they can pivot to whatever,
like they can pivot to AI data center or something.

883
01:12:39,042 --> 01:12:44,042
And even the people who manufacture the ASIC chips, they have a very specialized
investment.

884
01:12:45,042 --> 01:12:47,042
But of course, I don't know the details on this.

885
01:12:48,042 --> 01:12:51,042
We'd have to get somebody who's like a world expert in chip fabrication to tell us
this.

886
01:12:51,042 --> 01:12:59,042
But I'm pretty sure they're trying really hard to design the next generation of ASIC
chip year after year after year after year.

887
01:13:00,042 --> 01:13:04,042
I'm pretty sure they can put those skills towards just designing some other chip and
producing some other chip.

888
01:13:05,042 --> 01:13:09,042
So there's some expertise that builds up, but then there's some just general
expertise.

889
01:13:10,042 --> 01:13:11,042
So these people actually have outs.

890
01:13:12,042 --> 01:13:14,042
They can actually cut and run pretty easily.

891
01:13:14,042 --> 01:13:22,042
Not many of them are particularly loyal to the Bitcoin like software or the Bitcoin
product even.

892
01:13:23,042 --> 01:13:31,042
So we're also in a situation where if they do something that's good for Bitcoin,
even if they do something that's good for transaction fees and the Bitcoin price.

893
01:13:32,042 --> 01:13:36,042
Ultimately, in the long run, the difficulty will adjust upwards and cancel that out.

894
01:13:37,042 --> 01:13:44,042
So they have actually a very limited ability to care about improving Bitcoin.

895
01:13:45,042 --> 01:13:52,042
Whereas in contrast, if you're someone who owns Bitcoin, you really need it to be
BTC that goes up or down and you really need it to be the Bitcoin software.

896
01:13:53,042 --> 01:14:00,042
So now if we turn our attention to the pools, the pools also have some weird
conflicts of interest where a lot of these are very bizarre.

897
01:14:01,042 --> 01:14:04,042
And I think people would be surprised to learn just how screwed up and weird this
situation is.

898
01:14:04,042 --> 01:14:11,042
But to activate a soft fork, you need 51 percent of the hash rate.

899
01:14:12,042 --> 01:14:15,042
And that means you need a lot of pools involved.

900
01:14:16,042 --> 01:14:23,042
Now, this creates these like veto points where you need a lot of pools involved.

901
01:14:24,042 --> 01:14:28,042
Each pool will be thinking to themselves, well, listen, who do I mostly compete
against?

902
01:14:29,042 --> 01:14:30,042
It's the other pools.

903
01:14:31,042 --> 01:14:33,042
It's like, you know, Foundry is competing against Ant Pool or whatever.

904
01:14:34,042 --> 01:14:43,042
So if like they have a very limited incentive to do something that's good for the
whole network overall, actually.

905
01:14:44,042 --> 01:14:47,042
I'm not saying that this is a very strong effect, but it is something that people
should keep in mind.

906
01:14:48,042 --> 01:14:51,042
Like they why would you know what they're thinking about is how can I do something?

907
01:14:52,042 --> 01:14:59,042
How can I do something in my pool that causes people to leave Ant Pool or something
and come into my pool?

908
01:14:59,930 --> 01:15:03,930
And I guess something like the common project, like the soft fork, doesn't fit into
that.

909
01:15:08,930 --> 01:15:15,930
But interestingly, the pools, I think, don't have as much of an out where like if
you're a Bitcoin mining pool, it's not like you can pivot to AI or something.

910
01:15:15,930 --> 01:15:25,930
So I think they may eventually discover. I don't know how late in the game it will
be, but they may discover that they actually the soft forks were in their best
interests all along.

911
01:15:26,930 --> 01:15:33,930
But then, of course, you have people like Saylor and stuff like the soft
ossificationists, or at least they think they're ossificationists.

912
01:15:33,930 --> 01:15:41,930
I think they don't really know what they're doing because, of course, Bitcoin Core
keeps putting out new versions every six months anyway, like despite what they do.

913
01:15:41,930 --> 01:15:47,930
But yeah, a lot of people think like we don't want this maybe changes how we'd have
to describe Bitcoin or something.

914
01:15:47,930 --> 01:15:54,930
So a lot of people just ultimately don't want it. And I don't want to be in the
business of giving people something that they don't want.

915
01:15:54,930 --> 01:15:57,930
I respect their consent, the same as any reasonable person.

916
01:15:57,930 --> 01:16:04,930
So it's kind of like there's all these people out there who either individually want
it, but they're worried about what other people think.

917
01:16:04,930 --> 01:16:18,930
So that leaves me in the position that I'm in where many, many people, including
Adam Back and whatever, all these people at the LayerTwoLabs.com slash friends list,
you can check all these people.

918
01:16:19,930 --> 01:16:28,930
A lot of these people think like, well, at its core, this is a good idea or an idea
worth trying, but yet it's not on BTC.

919
01:16:28,930 --> 01:16:37,930
So then how to actually bring it into the world in a way that actually rewards all
Bitcoiners by giving them free money.

920
01:16:37,930 --> 01:16:46,930
And you can see that, of course, by doing this basically perfect idea in a perfect
way, being selflessly giving everyone free money, that you can see where all the
criticism comes from.

921
01:16:47,930 --> 01:16:57,930
Yeah. Well, so one last stop on the whole thought process of like, if this, then
that, of like, let's try to fix Bitcoin.

922
01:16:57,930 --> 01:16:59,930
That didn't work. What next kind of thing?

923
01:16:59,930 --> 01:17:16,930
Is how easily could Drivechains or something very similar to Drivechains be like a
merge mined sidechain with Bitcoin bridge to it be created without having any, even
a soft fork change to Bitcoin itself?

924
01:17:16,930 --> 01:17:17,930
Like, is it possible?

925
01:17:17,930 --> 01:17:26,930
But again, I've already done that because the CUSF BIP300 activator, this already
would activate the soft fork without changing any lines of code in Bitcoin.

926
01:17:27,930 --> 01:17:28,930
But it's kind of nonsensical.

927
01:17:28,930 --> 01:17:29,930
51% of the hash rate.

928
01:17:29,930 --> 01:17:40,930
Yeah, but it's kind of nonsensical to, because the way, because the idea of
Drivechain is that they're merge mined L2s, like kind of governed by the mining
process anyway.

929
01:17:40,930 --> 01:17:43,930
So the idea that you wouldn't have, like, you know what I mean?

930
01:17:43,930 --> 01:17:47,930
That would indicate that something else has gone wrong, like in the logic or
people's understanding of it.

931
01:17:47,930 --> 01:17:48,930
Like that would be really strange.

932
01:17:48,930 --> 01:17:56,930
So even if it were possible, it would just be like kind of, it's like saying, could
you drive a car if you didn't have to go anywhere and you would just be like, well,
I don't know.

933
01:17:56,930 --> 01:17:59,930
I'm sure you know you're, are you sure you know what you're trying to do?

934
01:17:59,930 --> 01:18:01,930
So, so, yeah, I don't know.

935
01:18:01,930 --> 01:18:04,930
I think it's more than just like activate this.

936
01:18:04,930 --> 01:18:05,930
It's the whole culture.

937
01:18:05,930 --> 01:18:11,930
It's just like people don't even want, I don't think, you know, it's just about what
the culture wants.

938
01:18:11,930 --> 01:18:14,930
So I think in various people have learned that at different times.

939
01:18:15,930 --> 01:18:19,930
So the culture obviously has a lot wrong with it.

940
01:18:19,930 --> 01:18:30,930
And that being said, there are like, I kind of feel like lightning had broad
consensus appeal amongst remaining again after the Bitcoin cash split, at least.

941
01:18:30,930 --> 01:18:34,930
The remainder of Bitcoin has had broad support for lightning to at least exist.

942
01:18:34,930 --> 01:18:36,930
And therefore it existed.

943
01:18:36,930 --> 01:18:39,930
Every other Bitcoin L2, I would not say that of.

944
01:18:39,930 --> 01:18:43,930
And of course, you have things like root stock, you have stacks, whatever you call
that.

945
01:18:43,930 --> 01:18:44,930
And again, the definition, right?

946
01:18:44,930 --> 01:18:45,930
Yeah, exactly.

947
01:18:45,930 --> 01:18:46,930
Get weird.

948
01:18:46,930 --> 01:18:49,930
So you have Citrea, which again, no one said anything.

949
01:18:49,930 --> 01:18:51,930
No one like campaigned for it.

950
01:18:51,930 --> 01:18:52,930
It just sort of like happened.

951
01:18:52,930 --> 01:18:57,930
Then, of course, you have the eCash stuff or, you know, look at the cash.

952
01:18:57,930 --> 01:18:58,930
I know you mean you're talking about that.

953
01:18:58,930 --> 01:19:01,930
This is another thing that eCash is used for this weird custodial lightning.

954
01:19:01,930 --> 01:19:02,930
Chowmian.

955
01:19:02,930 --> 01:19:03,930
Yeah.

956
01:19:03,930 --> 01:19:05,930
So you have all that or something called.

957
01:19:05,930 --> 01:19:07,930
Was it wasn't light spark?

958
01:19:07,930 --> 01:19:08,930
It was late something or other.

959
01:19:08,930 --> 01:19:11,930
That's like a new hybrid L2.

960
01:19:11,930 --> 01:19:12,930
That's like helps lightning.

961
01:19:13,930 --> 01:19:14,930
Yeah, I think it's like a state.

962
01:19:14,930 --> 01:19:17,930
Isn't that one of the state chain ideas?

963
01:19:17,930 --> 01:19:18,930
Something like that.

964
01:19:18,930 --> 01:19:19,930
I may be wrong about that.

965
01:19:19,930 --> 01:19:24,930
But the point is all these things were launched as Bitcoin L2s or sidechains or
whatever

966
01:19:24,930 --> 01:19:28,930
without, I guess, direct consent of the protocol.

967
01:19:28,930 --> 01:19:34,930
And so is there anything technically, again, forgive me for not being super into
like the

968
01:19:34,930 --> 01:19:39,930
sidechain nomics or the technicals of that, but is there anything preventing you
from

969
01:19:39,930 --> 01:19:47,930
launching Drivechains as a an L2 as a sidechain without having to actually modify
the

970
01:19:47,930 --> 01:19:51,930
Bitcoin core protocol at all, like without having to talk to a single miner, I
guess?

971
01:19:51,930 --> 01:19:54,930
Oh, well, that's different.

972
01:19:54,930 --> 01:20:00,930
Again, because we don't have to modify the any lines of code, as I said, with the
CUSF

973
01:20:00,930 --> 01:20:01,930
activator.

974
01:20:01,930 --> 01:20:08,930
But I don't know, because it's such a miner centric idea, the Drivechain that I
don't

975
01:20:08,930 --> 01:20:13,930
know if it like, I'm not sure what that would mean about without.

976
01:20:13,930 --> 01:20:17,930
And again, I don't know, like if the culture doesn't want it, then how much, you
know,

977
01:20:17,930 --> 01:20:20,930
what are the transaction fees revenues going to be like?

978
01:20:20,930 --> 01:20:22,930
What is the usage going to be?

979
01:20:22,930 --> 01:20:23,930
You see what I mean?

980
01:20:23,930 --> 01:20:24,930
Like, it's not the wrong.

981
01:20:24,930 --> 01:20:25,930
It's like the wrong.

982
01:20:25,930 --> 01:20:26,930
It's very confused.

983
01:20:26,930 --> 01:20:29,930
It's like saying, could you open a grocery store in a town where everyone hated
eating

984
01:20:29,930 --> 01:20:30,930
food or something?

985
01:20:30,930 --> 01:20:36,930
So if I were to distill that argument, it's kind of like saying, I want this for
Bitcoin.

986
01:20:37,930 --> 01:20:41,930
If Bitcoin as a whole doesn't want it, there won't be enough money in it if I force
it

987
01:20:41,930 --> 01:20:42,930
upon them anyway.

988
01:20:42,930 --> 01:20:43,930
Yeah, it's not going to work.

989
01:20:43,930 --> 01:20:44,930
We can't force people to do it.

990
01:20:44,930 --> 01:20:47,930
So I might as well do something where I do have money to work on it.

991
01:20:47,930 --> 01:20:49,930
Yeah, basically, yes.

992
01:20:49,930 --> 01:20:50,930
And it'll be a good demo.

993
01:20:50,930 --> 01:20:53,930
This will be a demonstration of what it does.

994
01:20:53,930 --> 01:20:55,930
Yeah, it's going to be fun.

995
01:20:55,930 --> 01:20:59,930
I heard rumor at one point about Drivechains on Litecoin, though.

996
01:20:59,930 --> 01:21:01,930
Yeah, I'm still in favor of that.

997
01:21:01,930 --> 01:21:04,930
I'm in favor of that, and I will help them do that.

998
01:21:04,930 --> 01:21:05,930
But they had some weird stuff.

999
01:21:05,930 --> 01:21:09,930
I'm not sure they totally understood why the CUSF activator is so much better.

1000
01:21:09,930 --> 01:21:11,930
And it's less work for them.

1001
01:21:11,930 --> 01:21:17,930
And all they have to do is run it next to Litecoin.

1002
01:21:17,930 --> 01:21:22,930
And all the stuff, all the L2s, which is most of the work, is on the L2s.

1003
01:21:22,930 --> 01:21:23,930
It's not really on BIP300.

1004
01:21:23,930 --> 01:21:24,930
It's not that complicated.

1005
01:21:24,930 --> 01:21:30,930
It's a little complicated, but it's not that complicated.

1006
01:21:31,930 --> 01:21:38,930
If they were to run the activator, then they would automatically have access to all
of these L2s.

1007
01:21:38,930 --> 01:21:46,930
The question then is, are they going to run our wallet and are they going to run our
front-end graphical user interface software?

1008
01:21:46,930 --> 01:21:49,930
How much of a revolution is it going to be?

1009
01:21:49,930 --> 01:21:52,930
And if it's not, then how are they going to cut and paste?

1010
01:21:53,930 --> 01:22:00,930
Are they going to take the graphical user interface elements that govern the
sidechains?

1011
01:22:00,930 --> 01:22:07,930
Are they going to take those and paste them into their favorite Litecoin full node
software?

1012
01:22:07,930 --> 01:22:08,930
I'm not sure exactly.

1013
01:22:08,930 --> 01:22:14,930
To what extent is it just a wholesale revolution, like the Paul Sztorc capture of
Litecoin or something?

1014
01:22:14,930 --> 01:22:21,930
But it's all open source, and I'm sure with LLMs and stuff, they could splice all
that stuff together, and it wouldn't be that hard.

1015
01:22:21,930 --> 01:22:22,930
I'm in favor of that.

1016
01:22:22,930 --> 01:22:25,930
At the time, they were saying, oh, we should activate it with BIP8 or something.

1017
01:22:25,930 --> 01:22:28,930
I was very confused by that, and I was like, I don't think they really understand.

1018
01:22:28,930 --> 01:22:30,930
But I still think that's a good idea.

1019
01:22:30,930 --> 01:22:33,930
I still think we should do it on Litecoin.

1020
01:22:33,930 --> 01:22:36,930
I still think we should do it on Testnet 4 even.

1021
01:22:36,930 --> 01:22:41,930
But I'm just not sure what the appetite is or what the understanding is.

1022
01:22:41,930 --> 01:22:44,930
You can see how low the levels of understanding are.

1023
01:22:45,930 --> 01:22:52,930
If people don't understand division, then they're useless people, not as people per
se.

1024
01:22:52,930 --> 01:22:56,930
But it's kind of like they just don't understand it.

1025
01:22:56,930 --> 01:22:57,930
They're useless as people.

1026
01:22:57,930 --> 01:22:58,930
They're usually not be a person.

1027
01:22:58,930 --> 01:22:59,930
Yeah.

1028
01:22:59,930 --> 01:23:06,930
They're not useless qua people, but they're useless in the context of the
conversation about what we should be doing.

1029
01:23:06,930 --> 01:23:10,930
It's kind of just like, well, what are we?

1030
01:23:10,930 --> 01:23:11,930
So that's the thing.

1031
01:23:11,930 --> 01:23:13,930
It's just kind of confusing.

1032
01:23:13,930 --> 01:23:18,930
And then, yeah, so the premise is like all these people are like, oh, I want to
support a Drivechain except for whatever.

1033
01:23:18,930 --> 01:23:21,930
So it's just coins or except for a hard fork or something like that.

1034
01:23:21,930 --> 01:23:24,930
And then these people say, oh, this is a hard fork.

1035
01:23:24,930 --> 01:23:30,930
They say the reason the hard fork is bad is because you're tricking the Bitcoin
community into getting involved.

1036
01:23:30,930 --> 01:23:34,930
It's like I'm giving every single Bitcoin owner the coins.

1037
01:23:34,930 --> 01:23:35,930
I mean, it's not really a trick.

1038
01:23:35,930 --> 01:23:38,930
It's like it's kind of the real thing in a way.

1039
01:23:38,930 --> 01:23:41,930
So, you know, there's some people that you can't please.

1040
01:23:41,930 --> 01:23:43,930
Usually I'm like 10, 15 years ahead.

1041
01:23:43,930 --> 01:23:48,930
I mean, I was really 10, 15 years ahead on the prediction markets topic.

1042
01:23:48,930 --> 01:23:51,930
And so I'm very much ahead of the game.

1043
01:23:51,930 --> 01:23:57,930
And usually I do things that I know will be unpopular just because of the way
they're perceived.

1044
01:23:57,930 --> 01:23:59,930
And that's not my responsibility.

1045
01:23:59,930 --> 01:24:03,930
That's other people's, you know, foolishness and being right.

1046
01:24:03,930 --> 01:24:07,930
But I'm certainly willing to put up with it to some extent.

1047
01:24:07,930 --> 01:24:09,930
But, yeah, so I don't know.

1048
01:24:09,930 --> 01:24:11,930
Do we have any.

1049
01:24:11,930 --> 01:24:13,930
Well, yeah, that's.

1050
01:24:13,930 --> 01:24:21,930
I wanted to correct one other thing you said about a lot of the L2s activate without
any assistance from.

1051
01:24:21,930 --> 01:24:24,930
From Bitcoin, but that's not true of the Lightning Network.

1052
01:24:24,930 --> 01:24:29,930
Lightning Network, of course, had SegWit, which you asked for, and it derailed.

1053
01:24:29,930 --> 01:24:31,930
It derailed everything for years.

1054
01:24:31,930 --> 01:24:38,930
And as a result, lightning is the opposite of Drivechain in which it has broad
cultural support.

1055
01:24:38,930 --> 01:24:45,930
But this has been a total disaster, and this is probably will be what will kill the
Bitcoin project is people's faith in lightning.

1056
01:24:45,930 --> 01:24:50,930
Since it basically doesn't work and people are determined, they become more
deranged.

1057
01:24:50,930 --> 01:24:55,930
The more they get involved with it, they become determined to lie about it.

1058
01:24:55,930 --> 01:24:59,930
So unfortunately, the cultural support is a double edged sword.

1059
01:24:59,930 --> 01:25:02,930
If you have too much of it, it becomes just a weird cult.

1060
01:25:02,930 --> 01:25:07,930
And then if you have not enough, then you can't get anything done with that group of
people.

1061
01:25:07,930 --> 01:25:09,930
Yeah, that makes sense.

1062
01:25:09,930 --> 01:25:13,930
So when you have.

1063
01:25:13,930 --> 01:25:23,930
Now that we have this, we have this sort of like Bitcoin has been slowly imploding
on itself over very slowly, I would say, over the last decade.

1064
01:25:23,930 --> 01:25:26,930
But it's still kind of like the culture is ossifying.

1065
01:25:26,930 --> 01:25:29,930
People are the inmates are restless, all this kind of stuff.

1066
01:25:29,930 --> 01:25:40,930
And now I interviewed Peter Eisen of Bitcoin Unlimited on a scaling research and
stuff.

1067
01:25:40,930 --> 01:25:42,930
He's also involved with the NEXA project.

1068
01:25:42,930 --> 01:25:53,930
And as far as I'm aware, NEXA, I don't think it's like a fork of Bitcoin cash, but
it's a it's a new crypto that is similar to Bitcoin cash with like more VM stuff.

1069
01:25:53,930 --> 01:26:08,930
And like whatever the rest, the reasoning for that is, well, when we split off with
Bitcoin cash, with Bitcoin core, we kept things like exactly the same other than we
modify the block size and then some other stuff.

1070
01:26:08,930 --> 01:26:19,930
But like if we don't have to try to be Bitcoin, then we're sort of free to do more
different things, right, to change more things that are that would be a smart
decision.

1071
01:26:19,930 --> 01:26:22,930
But then, you know, we just couldn't get going on Bitcoin.

1072
01:26:22,930 --> 01:26:25,930
Or if we did that on Bitcoin cash, it wouldn't be Bitcoin cash.

1073
01:26:25,930 --> 01:26:28,930
It wouldn't be a Bitcoin anymore or whatever.

1074
01:26:28,930 --> 01:26:36,930
And so a lot, to my mind, at least, a lot of the Drivechain design seems to...

1075
01:26:36,930 --> 01:26:45,930
I've always said that the Drivechain seemed to be the most elegant solution for
Bitcoin in that it pleased all sides.

1076
01:26:45,930 --> 01:26:47,930
It kept things exactly the same, basically.

1077
01:26:47,930 --> 01:26:52,930
And it kept the small block vision, run your own node, kept the big block vision.

1078
01:26:52,930 --> 01:26:55,930
It gave everyone what they wanted in a Bitcoin context.

1079
01:26:55,930 --> 01:27:00,930
Now that we're out of a Bitcoin context, why does this model make sense?

1080
01:27:00,930 --> 01:27:09,930
Like why wouldn't you just have a bunch of different chains that you don't have a
small block kind of base chain?

1081
01:27:09,930 --> 01:27:14,930
You just only have like the ZK chain and the other chain and all those ones
together.

1082
01:27:14,930 --> 01:27:22,930
Like why is this exact design the way it is kind of make sense for what is now a
non-Bitcoin cryptocurrency?

1083
01:27:23,930 --> 01:27:26,930
Well, when you, I mean, you have to have an L1.

1084
01:27:26,930 --> 01:27:29,930
So you have to have L1 node software.

1085
01:27:29,930 --> 01:27:34,930
So the question is, is that it's either going to be exactly the same as Bitcoin or
it's not going to be that.

1086
01:27:34,930 --> 01:27:43,930
And every change, I think, you know, the Bitcoin core full node, I think, is an
extremely battle tested piece of software.

1087
01:27:43,930 --> 01:27:46,930
People have been trying to hack it, et cetera, for years.

1088
01:27:47,930 --> 01:27:51,930
And so I think you'd be crazy to turn that down.

1089
01:27:51,930 --> 01:27:55,930
And you just say, if you didn't have to, like, why rewrite it all from scratch?

1090
01:27:55,930 --> 01:27:58,930
Because every change you make is, first of all, something you're going to have to
write.

1091
01:27:58,930 --> 01:28:01,930
You have to come up with. You're going to have to test it yourself.

1092
01:28:01,930 --> 01:28:03,930
You're going to have to maintain it.

1093
01:28:05,930 --> 01:28:08,930
And then you're going to have to not only that, even if it's a good change.

1094
01:28:08,930 --> 01:28:14,930
Now you have to explain it to other people who will then have to justify it to other
people.

1095
01:28:14,930 --> 01:28:17,930
And they're going to have to explain it and justify it to other people also.

1096
01:28:17,930 --> 01:28:20,930
So you have this enormous problem for each change.

1097
01:28:20,930 --> 01:28:28,930
And, of course, in software, like one single line of code or something could be like
the key logger or could be like crashing the software or something.

1098
01:28:29,930 --> 01:28:35,930
So I think whatever you do, you have to have L1 node software.

1099
01:28:35,930 --> 01:28:48,930
And so I think you might as well just take what is the most widely adopted full node
software for use in cryptocurrency block validation.

1100
01:28:48,930 --> 01:28:51,930
So that's why I think the L1 should be the L1.

1101
01:28:51,930 --> 01:28:55,930
For a lot of the L2s, like a lot of them, we wrote from scratch.

1102
01:28:55,930 --> 01:28:58,930
You will be back porting as things go along.

1103
01:28:58,930 --> 01:29:00,930
Right, including all the mistakes.

1104
01:29:00,930 --> 01:29:03,930
I think that Bitcoin Core has made many mistakes and still is.

1105
01:29:03,930 --> 01:29:11,930
But we'll just keep keeping that because the idea is if you like Bitcoin Core, then
you can come over here and you'll still have that.

1106
01:29:11,930 --> 01:29:14,930
So the idea is still trying to please everyone.

1107
01:29:16,930 --> 01:29:18,930
Yeah, you can see, of course, it's not going to work.

1108
01:29:18,930 --> 01:29:23,930
But I think it shines a light on who are the people who are not pleased by this.

1109
01:29:23,930 --> 01:29:28,930
I think it shows that they have weird, unmeetable standards or that they just don't
know.

1110
01:29:28,930 --> 01:29:38,930
Or they get their information from some weird echo chamber that is not truth
oriented.

1111
01:29:38,930 --> 01:29:45,930
And so I think it's only a matter of time before a community like that collapses one
way or another.

1112
01:29:45,930 --> 01:29:56,930
So we might as well shine a light on it while we still can and figure out, okay,
who's unhappy about this and why?

1113
01:29:56,930 --> 01:30:00,930
Who's unhappy about you getting free money as a Bitcoiner?

1114
01:30:00,930 --> 01:30:02,930
What are they going to lose?

1115
01:30:02,930 --> 01:30:08,930
How humiliating is it going to be for them if this idea succeeds?

1116
01:30:10,930 --> 01:30:11,930
Yeah, of course.

1117
01:30:11,930 --> 01:30:21,930
Now, so we've kind of gone through the logical progression of not only what is this,
but why we couldn't put it in Bitcoin through a bunch of different avenues.

1118
01:30:21,930 --> 01:30:23,930
And why does it look the way it is right now?

1119
01:30:23,930 --> 01:30:24,930
Like, that makes sense now.

1120
01:30:24,930 --> 01:30:28,930
So now you kind of hinted at some endgame type things.

1121
01:30:28,930 --> 01:30:30,930
But like, how do you expect this to go now?

1122
01:30:30,930 --> 01:30:33,930
So the fork launches, some people get their coins.

1123
01:30:33,930 --> 01:30:35,930
You get Satoshi's coin, some of them.

1124
01:30:35,930 --> 01:30:39,930
People get outraged for reasons we've already covered.

1125
01:30:39,930 --> 01:30:40,930
Whatever.

1126
01:30:40,930 --> 01:30:41,930
Things chug on.

1127
01:30:41,930 --> 01:30:45,930
There are some Drivechains that are launched now and people start doing things.

1128
01:30:45,930 --> 01:30:47,930
First, what are the first Drivechains?

1129
01:30:47,930 --> 01:30:51,930
I'm sure you must have a couple that are going to be ready to launch almost like at
launch, right?

1130
01:30:51,930 --> 01:30:52,930
Right.

1131
01:30:52,930 --> 01:30:54,930
Yeah, the starter pack, so to speak.

1132
01:30:54,930 --> 01:30:58,930
I think the bread and butter would be scaling and privacy.

1133
01:30:58,930 --> 01:31:02,930
So there's one I call Thunder, which is kind of a lightning joke.

1134
01:31:02,930 --> 01:31:04,930
And there's another one I call Zside.

1135
01:31:05,930 --> 01:31:09,930
I use the same orchard crate as Zcash, the old coin.

1136
01:31:09,930 --> 01:31:11,930
Yeah.

1137
01:31:11,930 --> 01:31:13,930
Was there ever a thought?

1138
01:31:13,930 --> 01:31:15,930
So here's the thing.

1139
01:31:15,930 --> 01:31:17,930
Let's say you have like a million Drivechains, right?

1140
01:31:17,930 --> 01:31:18,930
You could have like a fast one.

1141
01:31:18,930 --> 01:31:20,930
You could have the private one.

1142
01:31:20,930 --> 01:31:23,930
You could have whatever.

1143
01:31:23,930 --> 01:31:28,930
What thought has been given to combining a couple of those use cases to have fewer
Drivechains?

1144
01:31:28,930 --> 01:31:34,930
So, for example, why couldn't you have Crypto be Zthunder, for example?

1145
01:31:34,930 --> 01:31:36,930
Like both of those together sort of thing.

1146
01:31:36,930 --> 01:31:38,930
It's a very good question.

1147
01:31:38,930 --> 01:31:41,930
And I think it's an open...

1148
01:31:41,930 --> 01:31:43,930
I don't know if people will prefer...

1149
01:31:43,930 --> 01:31:49,930
Because you get some advantages when you say, we're going to have the full node do a
bunch of stuff.

1150
01:31:49,930 --> 01:31:54,930
Like calculate a bunch of state or track some different sets of things.

1151
01:31:54,930 --> 01:32:05,930
So you have some advantage by making them special purpose where you say, like, this
is the identity sidechain.

1152
01:32:05,930 --> 01:32:07,930
This is the assets sidechain.

1153
01:32:07,930 --> 01:32:09,930
This is the privacy sidechain.

1154
01:32:09,930 --> 01:32:12,930
So you gain some technical edge by doing that.

1155
01:32:13,930 --> 01:32:19,930
But at the same time, it might just be that people disagree over how much...

1156
01:32:19,930 --> 01:32:24,930
Basically the block size, like what the full node resource requirements should be.

1157
01:32:24,930 --> 01:32:28,930
So maybe some people only want to pay a little bit to store a small blockchain.

1158
01:32:28,930 --> 01:32:30,930
Other people are willing to pay more.

1159
01:32:30,930 --> 01:32:33,930
And a smaller number of people are willing to pay a huge amount.

1160
01:32:33,930 --> 01:32:36,930
And maybe they'll just divide that way.

1161
01:32:36,930 --> 01:32:38,930
I don't know.

1162
01:32:38,930 --> 01:32:39,930
But I just kind of...

1163
01:32:39,930 --> 01:32:47,930
Like it's just a little bit easier to just ship them this way and kind of give them
each a little bit of a branded type of thing.

1164
01:32:47,930 --> 01:32:48,930
Yeah.

1165
01:32:48,930 --> 01:32:52,930
So now, from what I remember from the last...

1166
01:32:52,930 --> 01:32:55,930
I mean, I guess you could probably reiterate in case people didn't watch the last
show.

1167
01:32:55,930 --> 01:32:58,930
I don't assume everyone watching has watched everything.

1168
01:32:58,930 --> 01:33:01,930
But the way you get from the main chain, right?

1169
01:33:01,930 --> 01:33:04,930
From the main Bitcoin core, whatever thing.

1170
01:33:04,930 --> 01:33:08,930
The bridging process does take a certain amount of blocks, et cetera.

1171
01:33:08,930 --> 01:33:09,930
Going in is instant.

1172
01:33:09,930 --> 01:33:12,930
Going back is very slow.

1173
01:33:12,930 --> 01:33:15,930
And so how many blocks does that take?

1174
01:33:15,930 --> 01:33:17,930
So to come back, it's extremely slow.

1175
01:33:17,930 --> 01:33:19,930
But the idea is that most people would not use that.

1176
01:33:19,930 --> 01:33:21,930
But it is three to six months.

1177
01:33:21,930 --> 01:33:23,930
But 6,000 people can ride back at once.

1178
01:33:23,930 --> 01:33:28,930
And the idea is that instead, you would just use the HTLCs to swap in and out
instantly.

1179
01:33:28,930 --> 01:33:32,930
And people would compete and pay a fee for that.

1180
01:33:32,930 --> 01:33:40,930
But the reason is because if there's a high number of these chains, you always want
there to be plenty of time for the dispute to be raised.

1181
01:33:40,930 --> 01:33:48,930
And so there's basically this hash on the withdrawal transaction that matches what's
reported by the full node software.

1182
01:33:48,930 --> 01:33:52,930
And so you have basically a really long time to notice if one hash doesn't match
another hash.

1183
01:33:52,930 --> 01:33:57,930
If it doesn't match, then that means that someone is doing something intentionally
wrong.

1184
01:33:57,930 --> 01:34:03,930
So the idea is it's a deterrent because it kind of establishes guilt very, very,
very quickly.

1185
01:34:03,930 --> 01:34:08,930
And you're very, very, very unlikely to get away with it.

1186
01:34:08,930 --> 01:34:14,930
This slow return, my guess is that it will never impact people.

1187
01:34:14,930 --> 01:34:17,930
But nonetheless, we have to have some way of returning.

1188
01:34:17,930 --> 01:34:20,930
But, yeah, the idea is that there would be like sort of specialists.

1189
01:34:20,930 --> 01:34:28,930
It's kind of like how if you go to the airport, you swap your U.S. dollars for euros
or something at the little thing.

1190
01:34:28,930 --> 01:34:32,930
And you usually never have to – like at some point, those people will net up.

1191
01:34:32,930 --> 01:34:39,930
They may accumulate like maybe more whatever yen than they need and then they'll
have to ship them in like a big box or something.

1192
01:34:39,930 --> 01:34:44,930
But most people just pay a fee and they can just swap it at the counter.

1193
01:34:44,930 --> 01:34:47,930
Yeah, so get built into some sort of a dex for easy swapping.

1194
01:34:47,930 --> 01:34:48,930
Exactly.

1195
01:34:48,930 --> 01:34:54,930
Where that runs into limits, what I'd imagine is just total liquidity in each
Drivechain.

1196
01:34:54,930 --> 01:34:59,930
So let's just say like the fast one is like the popular one.

1197
01:34:59,930 --> 01:35:01,930
And let's just say you start with 20 million coins.

1198
01:35:01,930 --> 01:35:07,930
Just assume you have 20 million users or 20 million coins are being actively used,
which, again, big assumptions.

1199
01:35:07,930 --> 01:35:08,930
We'll forget about that.

1200
01:35:08,930 --> 01:35:14,930
And let's just say like 18 million goes right into the fast one, the thunder
channel.

1201
01:35:14,930 --> 01:35:16,930
And so people are doing that.

1202
01:35:16,930 --> 01:35:20,930
But then there's a big surveillance event and they're like, oh, crap, we want
privacy.

1203
01:35:20,930 --> 01:35:24,930
Two million goes into the Z chain.

1204
01:35:24,930 --> 01:35:32,930
But then there's tons of demand for it and more than can satisfy people swapping up
because there can only be two million in that chain.

1205
01:35:32,930 --> 01:35:35,930
And so then you'd have to de-bridge.

1206
01:35:35,930 --> 01:35:36,930
That's right.

1207
01:35:36,930 --> 01:35:37,930
That would be slow.

1208
01:35:37,930 --> 01:35:40,930
And then it would be instant to go back, but it would be slow to de-bridge.

1209
01:35:41,930 --> 01:35:42,930
That's an interesting scenario.

1210
01:35:42,930 --> 01:35:44,930
But I think for a couple of reasons, it's not.

1211
01:35:44,930 --> 01:35:46,930
It's a very interesting theoretical scenario.

1212
01:35:46,930 --> 01:35:54,930
But I would imagine that people would probably be most comfortable saving in the
long run on the L1.

1213
01:35:54,930 --> 01:35:57,930
So they kind of keep their retirement savings on the L1.

1214
01:35:57,930 --> 01:36:08,930
And the other thing is just because a chain is very popular in turning over like
spending, that doesn't mean that you need to have a very high quantity of coins
there.

1215
01:36:08,930 --> 01:36:12,930
So I think I did some napkin math on my blog.

1216
01:36:12,930 --> 01:36:24,930
And, you know, with something like 5,000 to 10,000 coins, you could have like a
North America chain that has very large blocks, like gigabyte sized blocks.

1217
01:36:24,930 --> 01:36:29,930
There's huge amounts of turnover in the thing where you're paying for all of your
stuff.

1218
01:36:29,930 --> 01:36:31,930
They're paying their suppliers somewhere.

1219
01:36:31,930 --> 01:36:32,930
Your boss is getting paid.

1220
01:36:32,930 --> 01:36:34,930
Your boss pays you.

1221
01:36:35,930 --> 01:36:43,930
You could have huge amounts of turnover with small, not that many coins actually on
the chain as a whole.

1222
01:36:43,930 --> 01:36:49,930
So I don't know exactly, you know, if that napkin math will hold up in practice.

1223
01:36:49,930 --> 01:36:59,930
But I think it's at least theoretically possible that you would only need to have
like, you know, you could only have like a million coins kind of out there among the
L2s.

1224
01:36:59,930 --> 01:37:01,930
And there could be 20 million on the L1.

1225
01:37:01,930 --> 01:37:07,930
And you would still have a lot of – so I think that people would be hesitant to go
out and keep their coins.

1226
01:37:07,930 --> 01:37:14,930
The L2s would be more of something like, you know, the pocket money or like the
checking account.

1227
01:37:14,930 --> 01:37:25,930
And then coming back, the L1 would be more like the 401K or something like a
retirement account to use like a kind of weird metaphor like that.

1228
01:37:25,930 --> 01:37:29,930
So I don't think that that scenario would come up, although it might.

1229
01:37:29,930 --> 01:37:30,930
It's an interesting one.

1230
01:37:30,930 --> 01:37:37,930
But I think that even if you want privacy, let's say you're on the privacy chain and
you're a huge privacy enthusiast.

1231
01:37:37,930 --> 01:37:47,930
If you've used the privacy chain a lot, now that you're coming out of it, you're
coming out of the shielded pool like they – the ominous they.

1232
01:37:47,930 --> 01:37:52,930
They probably don't know who that is, so you're probably good on that UTXO.

1233
01:37:52,930 --> 01:37:54,930
You just put it on – park it on L1.

1234
01:37:54,930 --> 01:37:59,930
They know it came out of the seaside shielded pool, but they don't know who it is.

1235
01:37:59,930 --> 01:38:03,930
So that's not so bad.

1236
01:38:03,930 --> 01:38:15,930
So what's in terms of like if I needed to – let's just say one Drivechain became way
more popular than the other, and there needed to be more liquidity on one than the
other.

1237
01:38:15,930 --> 01:38:22,930
What's the latency that it would take for me to get from one to the other as far as
– let's say you're a swap.

1238
01:38:22,930 --> 01:38:24,930
Like you're a swap provider.

1239
01:38:24,930 --> 01:38:33,930
You're helping people to just swap one version for the other, but then you're
massively running out of liquidity on one of these, and you're like, we need more in
this system.

1240
01:38:33,930 --> 01:38:43,930
So we need to take some Bitcoin and load it and de-bridge it from this one and then
bridge it back to this one to balance out the liquidity more.

1241
01:38:43,930 --> 01:38:48,930
What's the – how long would that take in terms of like time, like hours, days,
whatever?

1242
01:38:48,930 --> 01:38:53,930
No, I think that would be – my guess is that that would be instant, but of course
the de-bridge is the three to six months.

1243
01:38:53,930 --> 01:38:59,930
But again, this is what I'm trying to say is there's probably going to be a reserve
of coins on L1 even if they're not yours.

1244
01:38:59,930 --> 01:39:10,930
So if you're this kind of person, you can work out this triangle trade where –
because the L1 coins can go instantly in like one block.

1245
01:39:10,930 --> 01:39:12,930
But there's one on-chain transaction.

1246
01:39:12,930 --> 01:39:21,930
The L1 coins can go to the L2 like immediately.

1247
01:39:21,930 --> 01:39:30,930
And so whichever chain is running short, you can be like – you can say, listen, I
don't – can I buy your L1 coins from you or can I – from anyone?

1248
01:39:30,930 --> 01:39:39,930
So basically anyone can move them from L1 to L2 and then take the swap or take the
swap first and then move them from L1 to L2.

1249
01:39:39,930 --> 01:39:42,930
So that part, that half of it is very easy.

1250
01:39:42,930 --> 01:39:53,930
And that half of it is very easy and then you would not – so like if you're saying
there's a really high demand on one side and there's not as much of a demand.

1251
01:39:53,930 --> 01:40:00,930
You can't as easily bring them from L2 to L1, but you have to push them from L1 to
L2 very easily.

1252
01:40:00,930 --> 01:40:03,930
So you'd be able to cook up some kind of like triangle trade, the HTLC thing.

1253
01:40:03,930 --> 01:40:05,634
So you should be able to do it.

1254
01:40:05,634 --> 01:40:32,634
Almost instantaneously, like within like an hour. So that part, that's why I'm not
worried about the 36-month part. I don't think it really ever catches –

1255
01:40:33,634 --> 01:40:58,634
Exactly. And it could even be – it's unclear, but I think one possibility is since
the L1 miners are participants in the deposit withdrawal cycle,

1256
01:40:59,634 --> 01:41:05,634
it's possible that these large pools, they would have this as another revenue stream
where they operate the big coin moving thing.

1257
01:41:06,634 --> 01:41:13,634
So they're the ones who say – because they're earning all these coins on all the
chains because they're mining and they're earning all these coins on L1.

1258
01:41:13,634 --> 01:41:22,634
They can say, okay, listen, we'll give everyone – for a small fee, we'll give
everyone on the new Z side Thunder super chain. We're giving you all these coins.

1259
01:41:23,634 --> 01:41:34,634
And then meanwhile, we want 102 coins on this, the defunct one for every 100 coins.
They take this 2% fee or whatever it is.

1260
01:41:35,634 --> 01:41:43,634
They all then own them there and then they can walk them back very safely knowing
that to them. If you're a large miner, the coins on the L2 are the same as the L1
coins.

1261
01:41:44,634 --> 01:41:51,634
Other people, there's maybe some fear that the Drivechain thing will break down. I
don't think so.

1262
01:41:52,634 --> 01:41:59,634
But yeah, it does seem like there's value to keep dry powder as it were or just
unbridged coins.

1263
01:42:00,634 --> 01:42:10,634
And it also seems like there will be a pretty big business as far as the arbitrage –
the arbitraging, the money changers as it were.

1264
01:42:11,634 --> 01:42:19,634
The change of this coin for this coin or lend someone some capacity on this chain or
on this one in order if someone runs into a time crunch.

1265
01:42:19,634 --> 01:42:24,634
So it seems like at least there's a strong business case there for people who want
to do that.

1266
01:42:25,634 --> 01:42:31,634
Now, as far as the end-user experience and the wallets and stuff, do you foresee any
– I don't know.

1267
01:42:32,634 --> 01:42:39,634
How's the experience going to look like for like if I want to have the master eCash
wallet? I just want like whatever.

1268
01:42:40,634 --> 01:42:48,634
It's probably got to sync a few different full nodes, right? It's got to sync with
the eCash core one like the big one and a few of these Drivechains.

1269
01:42:49,634 --> 01:42:54,634
You don't sync any – you kind of choose which L2s you want.

1270
01:42:55,634 --> 01:42:59,634
If you're not on them, then you don't have to sync them if you don't go there.

1271
01:43:00,634 --> 01:43:01,634
Those are like plug-ins or something.

1272
01:43:02,634 --> 01:43:06,634
So like you probably have a collection of coins in your wallet.

1273
01:43:07,634 --> 01:43:11,634
They're all the same base currency, but they're technically different coins at
different sidechains, right?

1274
01:43:11,634 --> 01:43:17,634
So you'd have like your private one and your cash one, and then maybe you'd have
your EVM style.

1275
01:43:18,634 --> 01:43:20,634
Again, maybe not EVM, but they're smart contract-y ones.

1276
01:43:21,634 --> 01:43:26,634
So you can get some mad DeFi gains staking it over here and then maybe a couple
others.

1277
01:43:27,634 --> 01:43:31,634
So you might have like five of the same coin or three of the same coin, but on
different things.

1278
01:43:32,634 --> 01:43:38,634
And I guess they'd be shown as different pockets sort of, even though they'd all be
seen as the same asset.

1279
01:43:38,634 --> 01:43:44,634
You'd probably have a unified balance of all of them, as far as the user experience
is concerned.

1280
01:43:45,634 --> 01:43:48,634
But then they would technically be in different pockets, right?

1281
01:43:49,634 --> 01:43:53,634
Right, and the wallet would want to say – because they're not quite the same.

1282
01:43:54,634 --> 01:43:57,634
Even though they exchange at a one-to-one value in BIP300.

1283
01:43:58,634 --> 01:44:01,634
If you have chains on a certain L2, they're kind of over there and they're not on.

1284
01:44:02,634 --> 01:44:04,634
If someone says, oh, can you pay me on this L2?

1285
01:44:04,634 --> 01:44:10,634
If you don't have the coins there, then without some other step, it won't work.

1286
01:44:11,634 --> 01:44:12,634
So you have to pay them wherever they are.

1287
01:44:13,634 --> 01:44:18,634
That's why I kind of think there'll be like a North America payments chain, like a
Europe payments chain, like a Southeast Asia.

1288
01:44:19,634 --> 01:44:25,634
There'll be like some geographically distributed would be my guess about how it
would work if it reached planetary scale.

1289
01:44:26,634 --> 01:44:28,634
And so, yeah, you would have to swap.

1290
01:44:29,634 --> 01:44:34,634
If you were going to get on a plane, you wouldn't have to go to the currency
counter,

1291
01:44:35,634 --> 01:44:45,634
but you would have to make one of these transactions where you either go from L1 to
the Asia L2,

1292
01:44:46,634 --> 01:44:49,634
or you do the swap so that you can pay people over there.

1293
01:44:50,634 --> 01:44:54,634
Yeah, so now let's talk about long-term vision as far as how this could play out.

1294
01:44:55,634 --> 01:44:59,634
So you launch, people get some, they start playing around, then what?

1295
01:45:00,634 --> 01:45:04,634
I think you mentioned a couple of percentage chances of either this happens or that
happens.

1296
01:45:05,634 --> 01:45:08,634
What are kind of the long-term outcomes you can kind of foresee of this?

1297
01:45:11,634 --> 01:45:13,634
Well, yeah, there are a lot of outcomes.

1298
01:45:14,634 --> 01:45:16,634
One is maybe people aren't that interested in this.

1299
01:45:17,634 --> 01:45:26,634
That would be itself pretty interesting to like figure out like that's just where
people's appetite is and what the demand is.

1300
01:45:27,634 --> 01:45:29,634
It's also possible technology might not work.

1301
01:45:30,634 --> 01:45:36,634
I think that it does or that if it breaks, it can be easily leveled up into
something that does work.

1302
01:45:37,634 --> 01:45:44,634
But one possibility is that, I mean, I think the two interesting possibilities are
that this technology succeeds really well,

1303
01:45:44,634 --> 01:45:48,634
and then people in BTC just decide, oh, like this actually is a good idea.

1304
01:45:49,634 --> 01:45:50,634
Why aren't we doing this?

1305
01:45:51,634 --> 01:45:54,634
And then they flip, and then, of course, all these people will say that they were
all the same people today who are big haters.

1306
01:45:55,634 --> 01:45:59,634
They'll say that they were always in favor of this idea and that they always liked
it.

1307
01:46:00,634 --> 01:46:04,634
I just like they were always against COVID lockdowns and what's ever.

1308
01:46:05,634 --> 01:46:06,634
So, of course.

1309
01:46:07,634 --> 01:46:09,634
And so we'll have that's one possibility.

1310
01:46:09,634 --> 01:46:19,634
Another possibility is that each of these L2s on eCash gains users and starts
achieving its own network effect.

1311
01:46:20,634 --> 01:46:24,634
And then a key property of this idea is that all the L2s are merge mined.

1312
01:46:25,634 --> 01:46:36,634
And so there would be this geometric increase in transaction fee revenue, which
means it would be a geometric increase in hashing power.

1313
01:46:37,634 --> 01:46:47,634
And that would make this chain have a larger and larger percentage of the SHA256D
mining hash rate.

1314
01:46:48,634 --> 01:46:56,634
And I think that would be great because, in a way, that would mean that its success
would automatically prevent the BTC network from finding blocks.

1315
01:46:57,634 --> 01:46:59,634
So, in that way, they are very rivalrous.

1316
01:47:00,634 --> 01:47:01,634
Yeah.

1317
01:47:02,634 --> 01:47:06,634
So, is there any, like, is this it for the BTC chain?

1318
01:47:07,634 --> 01:47:08,634
I don't know.

1319
01:47:09,634 --> 01:47:10,634
I'm not sure.

1320
01:47:10,634 --> 01:47:11,634
I'm not sure.

1321
01:47:11,634 --> 01:47:16,634
I think there's very little you can do to come back when you lose the culture of
truth.

1322
01:47:17,634 --> 01:47:22,634
I think it's very hard to come back from that because people will self-censor.

1323
01:47:23,634 --> 01:47:33,634
And it's like there's a whole parallel world where I think when everything's going
well, like everything is self-healing.

1324
01:47:34,634 --> 01:47:48,634
So, like, if your society is getting very healthy and people, now you have wealthier
merchants and they can afford books and they can afford to patronize the arts and
the arts inspire people and the culture improves.

1325
01:47:49,634 --> 01:47:50,634
So, I think everything goes well at once.

1326
01:47:51,634 --> 01:47:52,634
Like, places have like a golden age.

1327
01:47:53,634 --> 01:47:55,634
And then I think it's the reverse also, like when things start to go badly.

1328
01:47:56,634 --> 01:48:00,634
Like, now, how would someone be treated if they criticized the Lightning Network?

1329
01:48:00,634 --> 01:48:09,634
In BTC, never before has it been easier to criticize the Lightning Network because
so much has been done and it's so obviously, like, the problems are more obvious.

1330
01:48:10,634 --> 01:48:13,634
And yet, culturally, it's still very hard.

1331
01:48:14,634 --> 01:48:24,634
And the critics are treated as like weird fringe people instead of just like people
saying obvious things like you can't onboard 8 billion people to the Lightning
Network like under any circumstances.

1332
01:48:25,634 --> 01:48:29,634
And like no one is going to put up with these weird liquidity problems.

1333
01:48:30,634 --> 01:48:38,634
And actually, it's at this point much more difficult to run a Lightning Node for a
regular person than it would be for them to run even like a large block.

1334
01:48:39,634 --> 01:48:43,634
I mean, even like a Bitcoin SV node would be easier for the regular person.

1335
01:48:44,634 --> 01:48:45,634
And that's very telling.

1336
01:48:46,634 --> 01:48:47,634
Yeah, having run a Lightning Node.

1337
01:48:48,634 --> 01:48:54,634
Yeah, a regular person just running Bitcoin SV node would just click a button and
they'd say you need a lot of hard drive space.

1338
01:48:55,634 --> 01:48:57,634
They'd say, okay, and they'd buy a hard drive and plug it in.

1339
01:48:58,634 --> 01:48:59,634
And wait.

1340
01:49:00,634 --> 01:49:04,634
But most people find it very, people who've actually tried to run the Lightning
Node, normal people will give up.

1341
01:49:05,634 --> 01:49:07,634
So in practice, it's actually harder to run the Lightning Node.

1342
01:49:08,634 --> 01:49:11,634
So like, but that's just one example among many.

1343
01:49:12,634 --> 01:49:14,634
So I don't know.

1344
01:49:15,634 --> 01:49:22,634
But I think it's a good – this is the point is like, so maybe I'm wrong about all
this and we don't need eCash and everything will be fine with BTC.

1345
01:49:23,634 --> 01:49:27,634
In which case, that's great because you've got your BTC shirt.

1346
01:49:28,634 --> 01:49:31,634
And I'm not telling anyone to sell their BTC.

1347
01:49:32,634 --> 01:49:33,634
I'm just saying we need this hedge.

1348
01:49:34,634 --> 01:49:35,634
We need this lifeboat.

1349
01:49:35,634 --> 01:49:41,634
We need this lifeboat leaving the – most of the time when you build a cruise ship,
you don't need the lifeboats.

1350
01:49:42,634 --> 01:49:44,634
So I kind of hope that we don't need this lifeboat.

1351
01:49:45,634 --> 01:49:48,634
I'm just personally getting a little nervous.

1352
01:49:49,634 --> 01:49:52,634
I mean a lot of the things that people are saying and doing don't make any sense at
all.

1353
01:49:53,634 --> 01:49:55,634
And you know what I'm talking about.

1354
01:49:56,634 --> 01:50:00,634
So I think it's difficult when you lose the culture of truth.

1355
01:50:00,634 --> 01:50:04,634
And if you have a culture of truth, you can almost defeat anything eventually.

1356
01:50:05,634 --> 01:50:08,634
But if you lose the culture of truth, I think it's only a matter of time before.

1357
01:50:09,634 --> 01:50:11,634
So I don't know.

1358
01:50:12,634 --> 01:50:13,634
I'm honestly not sure.

1359
01:50:14,634 --> 01:50:23,634
But it's been incredible to have made so much – I mean again, I know people who paid
10 cents for Bitcoin and then sold it for $100,000.

1360
01:50:24,634 --> 01:50:26,634
So I know people who did a million X in Bitcoin.

1361
01:50:27,634 --> 01:50:30,634
And so I mean that's a huge win.

1362
01:50:31,634 --> 01:50:34,634
That's as good as life gets.

1363
01:50:35,634 --> 01:50:37,634
It's hard to complain after pulling something like that off.

1364
01:50:38,634 --> 01:50:43,634
And now you have these people who – they heard about Bitcoin after 2020 or something
and they're kind of like –

1365
01:50:44,634 --> 01:50:48,634
this is like – it reminds me of – you remember the Mad Max movie where he's giving
the water to the people?

1366
01:50:49,634 --> 01:50:52,634
And they're destitute and they have no – and he's like – and he opens the thing and
he says,

1367
01:50:52,634 --> 01:50:55,634
too much water will make you soft.

1368
01:50:56,634 --> 01:50:58,634
He shuts the water off.

1369
01:50:59,634 --> 01:51:02,634
So that's like the new people now.

1370
01:51:03,634 --> 01:51:04,634
And of course these new people don't know anything.

1371
01:51:05,634 --> 01:51:08,634
Like why can't we do a soft fork?

1372
01:51:09,634 --> 01:51:11,634
Because soft fork isn't a change to the protocol.

1373
01:51:12,634 --> 01:51:13,634
It's often ignorable and reversible.

1374
01:51:14,634 --> 01:51:16,634
You can still run the old version if you want.

1375
01:51:17,634 --> 01:51:20,634
So why is it treated differently than any other software change?

1376
01:51:20,634 --> 01:51:22,634
I don't know.

1377
01:51:23,634 --> 01:51:24,634
I'm not sure.

1378
01:51:25,634 --> 01:51:26,634
I don't know.

1379
01:51:27,634 --> 01:51:29,634
I think this – definitely there are warning signs.

1380
01:51:30,634 --> 01:51:37,634
So that's what people really don't like about this project is it shines some light
on the shortcomings of BTC.

1381
01:51:38,634 --> 01:51:39,634
And that's why they don't like it.

1382
01:51:40,634 --> 01:51:43,634
And that's why I think though that will guarantee that people will continue to talk
about it.

1383
01:51:44,634 --> 01:51:50,634
Because they can't resist, you know, like whatever, the two bullets hate or whatever
you want to call it.

1384
01:51:51,634 --> 01:51:57,634
Well, I have to say it is very interesting because I've been thinking about like
forks, proper forks of Bitcoin.

1385
01:51:58,634 --> 01:52:08,634
And as far as I know, the only meaningful fork, if you could call it, might have
been Bitcoin Cash in 2017.

1386
01:52:08,634 --> 01:52:13,634
And of course you had Bitcoin Gold which persisted way longer than I thought it
would.

1387
01:52:14,634 --> 01:52:18,634
But that was – I kind of feel like Bitcoin Gold was understood to be like a shit
fork.

1388
01:52:19,634 --> 01:52:20,634
Like it was not – you know.

1389
01:52:21,634 --> 01:52:22,634
Right.

1390
01:52:22,634 --> 01:52:27,634
These were frivolities and that was just like people discovered forking and they
just thought, well, how many of these can we make and this will be fun.

1391
01:52:28,634 --> 01:52:33,634
And maybe some of them were even intended to discredit Bitcoin Cash by trying to
lump them into like a weird category.

1392
01:52:34,634 --> 01:52:38,634
Yes. And so Bitcoin Cash, of course, is split off into SV and then also eCash.

1393
01:52:39,634 --> 01:52:41,634
It would be hilarious if one of those split.

1394
01:52:42,634 --> 01:52:46,634
I mean, I would not rule out Bitcoin SV forking into another SV.

1395
01:52:47,634 --> 01:52:48,634
Yeah, me either. Right.

1396
01:52:49,634 --> 01:52:50,634
That's a funny thing to think about.

1397
01:52:51,634 --> 01:52:55,634
But the point is Bitcoin Cash really shook Bitcoin, I would say, at the time.

1398
01:52:56,634 --> 01:52:57,634
It was a monumental change.

1399
01:52:57,634 --> 01:53:02,634
And I think for a variety of reasons, I think Bitcoin Cash did not short term work
out.

1400
01:53:03,634 --> 01:53:07,634
I think they reinvigorated and they're back in close to the top 10 or whatever.

1401
01:53:08,634 --> 01:53:09,634
They're still there.

1402
01:53:10,634 --> 01:53:15,634
But this has been like nine years since a Bitcoin fork like that, like a real one.

1403
01:53:16,634 --> 01:53:19,634
And I get that this is probably much less – I wouldn't say less.

1404
01:53:20,634 --> 01:53:23,634
I don't want to be disrespectful by saying less real than the Bitcoin Cash one was.

1405
01:53:23,634 --> 01:53:28,634
But that was more like this super important battle going on right then.

1406
01:53:29,634 --> 01:53:31,634
Half of it went this way, half went that way, sort of.

1407
01:53:32,634 --> 01:53:34,634
Or 90% went this way, 10% went this way, whatever.

1408
01:53:35,634 --> 01:53:39,634
In this case, it might not be as significant because, as you sort of pointed out,

1409
01:53:40,634 --> 01:53:43,634
the support for Drivechain has been not where it probably should have been.

1410
01:53:44,634 --> 01:53:45,634
But it still is a fork.

1411
01:53:46,634 --> 01:53:47,634
It still shows that there is a division.

1412
01:53:48,634 --> 01:53:51,634
Now, what do you think are the chances also?

1413
01:53:51,634 --> 01:53:58,634
Speaking of fun things, that there's a BIP 110 fork around the same time?

1414
01:53:59,634 --> 01:54:00,634
Yeah, it's a funny question.

1415
01:54:01,634 --> 01:54:06,634
I honestly thought – well, first of all, I'd agree that one thing that Bitcoin Cash
had going for it

1416
01:54:07,634 --> 01:54:11,634
was that there were already these huge, these two really passionate communities

1417
01:54:12,634 --> 01:54:13,634
that have been disagreeing for like seven years.

1418
01:54:14,634 --> 01:54:17,634
But yeah, I think that was also part of its downfall in a way.

1419
01:54:17,634 --> 01:54:21,634
It was kind of like – well, it's tough.

1420
01:54:22,634 --> 01:54:24,634
You need passion and you need a lot of stuff and it's really hard.

1421
01:54:25,634 --> 01:54:32,634
It's funny also that we say Bitcoin Cash is a failure because it briefly made it to
the number two spot

1422
01:54:33,634 --> 01:54:38,634
on the coin market cap and then it was like it's still worth billions of dollars
today.

1423
01:54:39,634 --> 01:54:40,634
It's kind of just a bizarre thing.

1424
01:54:40,634 --> 01:54:42,634
But yeah, I was thinking about that too.

1425
01:54:43,634 --> 01:54:49,634
I care so little about the op return,

1426
01:54:52,634 --> 01:54:59,634
like the idea of caring about what kind of op returns are in the standardness limit.

1427
01:55:00,634 --> 01:55:01,634
I think that's so ridiculous.

1428
01:55:02,634 --> 01:55:05,634
It just doesn't even appear on my radar and I've been ignoring it

1429
01:55:06,634 --> 01:55:08,634
because I just really don't care either way.

1430
01:55:09,634 --> 01:55:13,634
Nonetheless, Luke has made – it's funny that people of course criticize this,

1431
01:55:14,634 --> 01:55:20,634
but Luke has – I think he's made comments to the effect that say that if his soft
fork doesn't activate,

1432
01:55:21,634 --> 01:55:24,634
he will just proceed even – he'll just like basically turn it into a hard fork and
say,

1433
01:55:25,634 --> 01:55:29,634
it doesn't matter how many miners run this, like this is the chain.

1434
01:55:30,634 --> 01:55:32,634
I don't know if I have to lower the difficulty or how that will work.

1435
01:55:33,634 --> 01:55:34,634
Yeah, that's the thing.

1436
01:55:35,634 --> 01:55:40,634
I mean that's one reason I called it the caveman war is to my mind and nothing of it
made sense.

1437
01:55:41,634 --> 01:55:44,634
Like it just seemed like not the sharpest tacks in the room kind of doing something
like that.

1438
01:55:45,634 --> 01:55:47,634
But yeah, I mean it is what it is.

1439
01:55:49,634 --> 01:55:55,634
Now, so the last kind of I guess question on this thing,

1440
01:55:56,634 --> 01:55:58,634
of course if anyone has any questions in the comments,

1441
01:55:59,634 --> 01:56:02,634
one, someone did have a question in the comments,

1442
01:56:03,634 --> 01:56:07,634
which was about are you supporting the pump.fund token called eCash that's
launching.

1443
01:56:08,634 --> 01:56:09,634
Someone's trying to scam.

1444
01:56:10,634 --> 01:56:11,634
So ignore it.

1445
01:56:12,634 --> 01:56:13,634
Not right now, but I don't know.

1446
01:56:14,634 --> 01:56:15,634
Maybe I could work out some kind of weird deal with them somehow.

1447
01:56:16,634 --> 01:56:17,634
I'm not sure.

1448
01:56:18,634 --> 01:56:19,634
But I don't have anything to do with that as of now,

1449
01:56:20,634 --> 01:56:25,634
and everyone should carefully watch me on X slash Twitter,

1450
01:56:25,634 --> 01:56:29,634
which is Truthcoin, and they should go to the eCash.com site.

1451
01:56:30,634 --> 01:56:32,634
Because of course, yeah, people have already been like,

1452
01:56:33,634 --> 01:56:35,634
people make like a fake GitHub for me.

1453
01:56:36,634 --> 01:56:38,634
So it's really rough out there.

1454
01:56:39,634 --> 01:56:41,634
People will be trying to trick you.

1455
01:56:42,634 --> 01:56:44,634
It sucks, and I'm not Truthcoin on Telegram.

1456
01:56:45,634 --> 01:56:46,634
I'm only Truthcoin on Twitter.

1457
01:56:47,634 --> 01:56:48,634
I'm Pstorz on Telegram.

1458
01:56:49,634 --> 01:56:52,634
Yeah, so I guess like sort of the final big question honestly,

1459
01:56:52,634 --> 01:56:55,634
barring any other questions that come in from the community,

1460
01:56:56,634 --> 01:57:01,634
is so like the big Truthcoin thing is,

1461
01:57:02,634 --> 01:57:06,634
I mean the big Drivechain thing is it's like the alt killer,

1462
01:57:07,634 --> 01:57:08,634
the shitcoin killer, right?

1463
01:57:09,634 --> 01:57:11,634
Where it's like it obsoletes a lot of use cases.

1464
01:57:12,634 --> 01:57:16,634
Now that makes a lot of sense coming from you tack that onto Bitcoin, right?

1465
01:57:17,634 --> 01:57:21,634
Because now you have all these use cases attached to the Bitcoin store of value

1466
01:57:22,634 --> 01:57:25,634
the Bitcoin unitive account, the branding, all those other stuff.

1467
01:57:26,634 --> 01:57:28,634
But now that you're kind of shedding a lot of that,

1468
01:57:29,634 --> 01:57:33,634
how do you think that this new eCash is going to compete with just

1469
01:57:34,634 --> 01:57:36,634
the whole down the coin market cap ranking,

1470
01:57:37,634 --> 01:57:40,634
like all those projects that have, you know, maybe years in the business,

1471
01:57:41,634 --> 01:57:43,634
have integrations in this, have brand recognition,

1472
01:57:44,634 --> 01:57:45,634
have DEX integrations, whatever else.

1473
01:57:46,634 --> 01:57:48,634
How do you think that that practically works out?

1474
01:57:49,634 --> 01:57:51,634
Like how do you fight your way through the masses of these other coins?

1475
01:57:52,634 --> 01:57:53,634
Yeah, absolutely. It's very,

1476
01:57:54,634 --> 01:57:56,634
this is why a lot of people like to stay in the Bitcoin world

1477
01:57:57,634 --> 01:57:58,634
and even identify with it, even if they only own like,

1478
01:57:59,634 --> 01:58:00,634
they own like $25 worth of Bitcoin.

1479
01:58:01,634 --> 01:58:03,634
They say, well, I'm in the Bitcoin group and I'm a whatever.

1480
01:58:04,634 --> 01:58:05,634
And so that's a, that's a big advantage.

1481
01:58:06,634 --> 01:58:07,634
I'm a huge believer in network effects.

1482
01:58:08,634 --> 01:58:09,634
I think it's much easier for the bigger coins.

1483
01:58:10,634 --> 01:58:12,634
I think it's much easier for the more established coins.

1484
01:58:13,634 --> 01:58:15,634
So yeah, I think it, I think it will be difficult,

1485
01:58:15,634 --> 01:58:19,634
but I think all of the other projects like,

1486
01:58:20,634 --> 01:58:24,634
well, you know, I can't speak for literally every single one of them,

1487
01:58:25,634 --> 01:58:29,634
but the idea of Drivechain is that you could get different,

1488
01:58:30,634 --> 01:58:33,634
like full node software, all with the same currency unit.

1489
01:58:34,634 --> 01:58:36,634
So I'm kind of saying like, it's a good thing that

1490
01:58:37,634 --> 01:58:40,634
there's all these different, these different, like,

1491
01:58:41,634 --> 01:58:42,634
it's a good thing that there's a Zcash.

1492
01:58:42,634 --> 01:58:44,634
It's a good thing that there's an Ethereum.

1493
01:58:45,634 --> 01:58:47,634
It's a good thing that there is a Bitcoin cash.

1494
01:58:48,634 --> 01:58:52,634
And, you know, of course,

1495
01:58:53,634 --> 01:58:55,634
all of them are going to try to be moved down the stack.

1496
01:58:56,634 --> 01:58:57,634
Like, so when Ethereum came out, it was kind of like,

1497
01:58:58,634 --> 01:59:01,634
this is Ethereum plus, it's just like Bitcoin plus smart contracts.

1498
01:59:02,634 --> 01:59:03,634
So it was kind of like, oh, you can send money to people,

1499
01:59:04,634 --> 01:59:05,634
but also you can do all this other stuff.

1500
01:59:06,634 --> 01:59:08,634
I think I'm attempting a version of that where I'm saying like,

1501
01:59:08,634 --> 01:59:11,634
okay, like literally the L1 is the number one altcoin.

1502
01:59:12,634 --> 01:59:15,634
And then I have all the L2s are just, they are this other technology.

1503
01:59:16,634 --> 01:59:19,634
Those will have network effects to overcome.

1504
01:59:20,634 --> 01:59:24,634
But I think ours would have a unique ability

1505
01:59:25,634 --> 01:59:28,634
to increase in network effect over time.

1506
01:59:29,634 --> 01:59:31,634
Because this is what happens is like, okay,

1507
01:59:32,634 --> 01:59:34,634
so like you had Bitcoin and then Bitcoin cash split off.

1508
01:59:34,634 --> 01:59:40,634
And then you had a debate between Omri and Craig.

1509
01:59:41,634 --> 01:59:43,634
And then Bitcoin SV split off.

1510
01:59:44,634 --> 01:59:46,634
So in the blockchain paradigm,

1511
01:59:47,634 --> 01:59:48,634
you don't have this splitting off thing.

1512
01:59:49,634 --> 01:59:50,634
And I think they're bound to be controversies.

1513
01:59:51,634 --> 01:59:52,634
I think that's inevitable.

1514
01:59:53,634 --> 01:59:54,634
So I think this is a decent way of,

1515
01:59:55,634 --> 01:59:56,634
excuse me,

1516
01:59:57,634 --> 02:00:00,634
a decent way of dealing with these controversies.

1517
02:00:01,634 --> 02:00:03,634
Oh my God, I need some water.

1518
02:00:04,634 --> 02:00:05,634
Yeah, you've been going on for a long time.

1519
02:00:06,634 --> 02:00:07,634
But I think it's,

1520
02:00:10,634 --> 02:00:11,634
sorry.

1521
02:00:12,634 --> 02:00:13,634
It's like, it's a decent, yeah.

1522
02:00:14,634 --> 02:00:15,634
They're that fast.

1523
02:00:16,634 --> 02:00:17,634
I got you.

1524
02:00:19,634 --> 02:00:22,634
So like you reach like a kind of a problem

1525
02:00:23,634 --> 02:00:24,634
where the community grows to a certain size.

1526
02:00:25,634 --> 02:00:27,634
People disagree over exactly what you should do.

1527
02:00:28,634 --> 02:00:29,634
This type of thing happens routinely.

1528
02:00:30,634 --> 02:00:33,634
So I think we're going to do like an RFK in junior.

1529
02:00:34,634 --> 02:00:35,634
That'd be terrible.

1530
02:00:36,634 --> 02:00:38,634
I'm watching eCash in a few minutes.

1531
02:00:39,634 --> 02:00:40,634
Yeah.

1532
02:00:41,634 --> 02:00:42,634
So,

1533
02:00:43,634 --> 02:00:44,634
so I think that that's, that's kind of,

1534
02:00:45,634 --> 02:00:46,634
it will be difficult though to, you know,

1535
02:00:47,634 --> 02:00:48,634
obviously it's very difficult to compete.

1536
02:00:49,634 --> 02:00:50,634
I think when you,

1537
02:00:51,634 --> 02:00:52,634
the example of Bitcoin cash is like,

1538
02:00:53,634 --> 02:00:56,634
you had all these altcoins in 2017.

1539
02:00:57,634 --> 02:00:59,634
And yet it was actually a hard fork

1540
02:01:00,634 --> 02:01:02,634
to get very quickly to the number two space.

1541
02:01:03,634 --> 02:01:04,634
And it was then, you know,

1542
02:01:05,634 --> 02:01:06,634
I published graphs in the past about

1543
02:01:07,634 --> 02:01:09,634
how successful was Bitcoin cash

1544
02:01:10,634 --> 02:01:12,634
compared to like Solana or Avalanche or whatever.

1545
02:01:13,634 --> 02:01:17,634
And you can say as a percentage of the top two,

1546
02:01:18,634 --> 02:01:22,634
so you could say Bitcoin, Ethereum and X.

1547
02:01:23,634 --> 02:01:24,634
You do this graph where you say,

1548
02:01:25,634 --> 02:01:26,634
what were the market caps?

1549
02:01:27,634 --> 02:01:28,634
So you say, how close was it to breaking in the top two?

1550
02:01:28,634 --> 02:01:29,634
And you can then do this.

1551
02:01:30,634 --> 02:01:31,634
You repeat this graph for,

1552
02:01:34,634 --> 02:01:36,634
for like Solana, Bitcoin cash, whatever.

1553
02:01:37,634 --> 02:01:38,634
And then the,

1554
02:01:39,634 --> 02:01:40,634
you could see that actually Bitcoin cash did much better.

1555
02:01:41,634 --> 02:01:42,634
You know, it only had like a year of life

1556
02:01:43,634 --> 02:01:44,634
before it started to fall,

1557
02:01:45,634 --> 02:01:46,634
but it did much better than the altcoin.

1558
02:01:47,634 --> 02:01:48,634
So I actually think I agree with you

1559
02:01:49,634 --> 02:01:50,634
that really Bitcoin cash was the only real fork.

1560
02:01:51,634 --> 02:01:53,634
A lot of the other ones were kind of like designed to fail.

1561
02:01:54,634 --> 02:01:55,634
Yeah.

1562
02:01:56,634 --> 02:01:57,634
And a lot of the other ones were designed

1563
02:01:58,634 --> 02:01:59,634
to fail.

1564
02:02:00,634 --> 02:02:01,634
So the only time we did a Bitcoin hard fork,

1565
02:02:02,634 --> 02:02:04,634
it skyrocketed to the number two place.

1566
02:02:05,634 --> 02:02:06,634
And I think actually there were a lot of problems

1567
02:02:07,634 --> 02:02:08,634
with the Bitcoin cash hard fork.

1568
02:02:09,634 --> 02:02:11,634
So they had tremendous community support.

1569
02:02:12,634 --> 02:02:13,634
Yes.

1570
02:02:14,634 --> 02:02:15,634
But it was created in August.

1571
02:02:16,634 --> 02:02:17,634
And then in November they kind of told everyone

1572
02:02:18,634 --> 02:02:19,634
this is why SegWit2x was still going on.

1573
02:02:20,634 --> 02:02:21,634
And then they kind of canceled SegWit2x

1574
02:02:22,634 --> 02:02:24,634
and said, this is the new large blocker project

1575
02:02:25,634 --> 02:02:26,634
after it had already been out for months

1576
02:02:26,634 --> 02:02:28,634
and people had maybe sold already.

1577
02:02:29,634 --> 02:02:30,634
So I'm kind of warning people in advance

1578
02:02:31,634 --> 02:02:32,634
whereas they kind of was like already been out

1579
02:02:33,634 --> 02:02:34,634
and it was like already been out

1580
02:02:35,634 --> 02:02:36,634
and it was not the official.

1581
02:02:37,634 --> 02:02:38,634
There were like tweets and stuff.

1582
02:02:39,634 --> 02:02:40,634
People are talking about, oh, is SegWit2x

1583
02:02:41,634 --> 02:02:42,634
still the large blocker project?

1584
02:02:43,634 --> 02:02:44,634
People forget that people like Roger Ver

1585
02:02:45,634 --> 02:02:47,634
were not supporters in the early days.

1586
02:02:48,634 --> 02:02:49,634
Right.

1587
02:02:50,634 --> 02:02:51,634
I have it as one of the times on this channel

1588
02:02:52,634 --> 02:02:53,634
when Roger appeared.

1589
02:02:54,634 --> 02:02:55,634
He's literally talking about it.

1590
02:02:56,634 --> 02:02:57,634
It was a big block version.

1591
02:02:58,634 --> 02:02:59,634
You know, I wish them well,

1592
02:03:00,634 --> 02:03:01,634
but like it's very sad what's happened.

1593
02:03:02,634 --> 02:03:03,634
Like he just was not very into it

1594
02:03:04,634 --> 02:03:05,634
or familiar at all at the time.

1595
02:03:06,634 --> 02:03:07,634
Again, on this channel.

1596
02:03:08,634 --> 02:03:09,634
And then it took a while to get on board.

1597
02:03:10,634 --> 02:03:11,634
Right.

1598
02:03:11,634 --> 02:03:12,634
It wasn't until November.

1599
02:03:13,634 --> 02:03:14,634
Yeah.

1600
02:03:15,634 --> 02:03:16,634
The SegWit2x thing was,

1601
02:03:17,634 --> 02:03:18,634
as any big blocker remembers, I guess,

1602
02:03:19,634 --> 02:03:20,634
was a little bit of a bait and switch

1603
02:03:21,634 --> 02:03:22,634
where the SegWit signaling

1604
02:03:23,634 --> 02:03:24,634
was like 30, 40 percent in minors.

1605
02:03:24,634 --> 02:03:25,634
And then after SegWit2x,

1606
02:03:26,634 --> 02:03:27,634
it went up to 90 and got implemented.

1607
02:03:28,634 --> 02:03:30,634
But then the 2X part never happened.

1608
02:03:31,634 --> 02:03:32,634
It kind of got rugged afterwards.

1609
02:03:33,634 --> 02:03:34,634
And I noticed the UASF

1610
02:03:35,634 --> 02:03:36,634
and all that other stuff that came about

1611
02:03:37,634 --> 02:03:39,634
did not intensify until SegWit got activated.

1612
02:03:40,634 --> 02:03:41,634
It was a little, it was very kind of deliberate.

1613
02:03:42,634 --> 02:03:43,634
So understandably, it took some wind

1614
02:03:44,634 --> 02:03:45,634
out of the sails.

1615
02:03:46,634 --> 02:03:47,634
Also, people had never dealt with a fork before.

1616
02:03:48,634 --> 02:03:49,634
Exchanges didn't know what to do.

1617
02:03:50,634 --> 02:03:51,634
People were sending money to the wrong addresses.

1618
02:03:52,634 --> 02:03:53,634
Like all this kind of stuff was just,

1619
02:03:54,634 --> 02:03:55,634
you know, having like a prepared fork

1620
02:03:56,634 --> 02:03:59,634
might help a little bit for sure.

1621
02:04:00,634 --> 02:04:01,634
But one thing's for sure.

1622
02:04:02,634 --> 02:04:07,634
I think that the chances of this doing well

1623
02:04:08,634 --> 02:04:09,634
have a lot to do with hitting the ground running

1624
02:04:10,634 --> 02:04:12,634
in terms of like doing things,

1625
02:04:13,634 --> 02:04:14,634
getting a few key integrators,

1626
02:04:15,634 --> 02:04:16,634
whether it's a payment processor,

1627
02:04:17,634 --> 02:04:18,634
whether it's a wallet

1628
02:04:19,634 --> 02:04:20,634
that wants to do these kinds of things,

1629
02:04:21,634 --> 02:04:22,634
whether it's getting an exchange ready

1630
02:04:22,634 --> 02:04:24,634
to like switch between all the different coins,

1631
02:04:25,634 --> 02:04:27,634
kind of like a built-in insta-exchanger.

1632
02:04:28,634 --> 02:04:29,634
And yeah, I mean, that's,

1633
02:04:30,634 --> 02:04:31,634
and it's not really a question,

1634
02:04:32,634 --> 02:04:33,634
it's just sort of a comment.

1635
02:04:34,634 --> 02:04:35,634
I do think that that's going to be the deciding factor

1636
02:04:36,634 --> 02:04:37,634
of how well this whole thing does

1637
02:04:38,634 --> 02:04:40,634
is how much momentum you can get going.

1638
02:04:41,634 --> 02:04:42,634
It could be, you know,

1639
02:04:43,634 --> 02:04:46,634
the odds of any new chain launching

1640
02:04:47,634 --> 02:04:48,634
and doing well long-term are not very high.

1641
02:04:49,634 --> 02:04:50,634
But the odds would be,

1642
02:04:50,634 --> 02:04:51,634
it could be the surprise attack

1643
02:04:52,634 --> 02:04:54,634
that is sort of needed to just come out.

1644
02:04:55,634 --> 02:04:56,634
Like, oh my gosh,

1645
02:04:57,634 --> 02:04:58,634
this is actually taking some market share in some areas

1646
02:04:59,634 --> 02:05:00,634
and showing us up.

1647
02:05:01,634 --> 02:05:02,634
So yeah, it's an interesting thing.

1648
02:05:03,634 --> 02:05:05,634
Now, I don't know if anyone's asked this,

1649
02:05:06,634 --> 02:05:07,806
but if you have any questions,

1650
02:05:07,806 --> 02:05:11,566
I don't know if anyone's asked this, but it is absolutely none of my business. You
could

1651
02:05:11,566 --> 02:05:15,886
just say, yeah, no thanks, I'm not going to answer that. What do you intend, this is
what

1652
02:05:15,886 --> 02:05:21,526
all the Maxis would probably think though, do you intend to sell your actual BTC
immediately

1653
02:05:21,526 --> 02:05:22,526
or are you just going to...

1654
02:05:22,526 --> 02:05:31,086
No, I really don't. No, I see it as a lifeboat, you know, on the Titanic. So I don't
think

1655
02:05:31,086 --> 02:05:36,886
we should want to do this, but we should, if you see the Titanic, you know, headed
for

1656
02:05:36,886 --> 02:05:42,046
an iceberg, this is a good time to like, you know, check the lifeboats and maybe
like make

1657
02:05:42,046 --> 02:05:45,366
sure there are no holes in them and start like, you know, whatever. I know they
didn't

1658
02:05:45,366 --> 02:05:48,166
have, they probably didn't have caulk back then, but you would want to start like
caulking

1659
02:05:48,166 --> 02:05:53,566
them up, you know, or whatever they do, you know, varnishing them or making sure
they're

1660
02:05:53,566 --> 02:06:01,806
still waterproof as soon as possible. So, yeah. I mean, what do you think is the
future

1661
02:06:01,806 --> 02:06:05,686
for BTC?

1662
02:06:05,686 --> 02:06:10,886
I'm not 100% sure. I will say where I was wrong first, because everyone likes to
say,

1663
02:06:10,886 --> 02:06:14,886
oh, I was right about this or I predict this, I expect to be right. Where I was
wrong is

1664
02:06:14,886 --> 02:06:24,006
I thought that the, um, the unsustainability of the system would kind of implode on
itself

1665
02:06:24,006 --> 02:06:28,926
within a few years. I didn't real like, you know, after 2017, like I thought it'd be
like

1666
02:06:28,926 --> 02:06:34,966
2020, 2021, it starts to really give way to other things. And it kind of, you know,
where

1667
02:06:34,966 --> 02:06:39,486
I was wrong on that is I think that, uh, I, you know, maybe I underestimated that
the

1668
02:06:39,486 --> 02:06:43,926
network effects were some of the more powerful part. It wasn't the tech itself. It
was the

1669
02:06:43,926 --> 02:06:51,686
network effects that were very entrenched, but also the base. The other thing is
Bitcoin,

1670
02:06:51,686 --> 02:06:57,646
in my opinion, has persisted as a peer-to-peer electronic cash system, even though
hobbled

1671
02:06:57,646 --> 02:07:02,766
in that. But what's happened is, right. It was a peer-to-peer electronic cash system

1672
02:07:02,766 --> 02:07:06,806
for this many transactions and it's remained that way. And what has happened though,
is

1673
02:07:06,806 --> 02:07:14,606
it's stayed that way, but the wealth pyramid of that has just gone up. And so it has
grown.

1674
02:07:14,606 --> 02:07:20,206
It has, even though the transaction capacity has not, the actual, uh, value
transmission

1675
02:07:20,206 --> 02:07:25,566
capacity has kind of gone up. And I kind of feel like when it hits that ceiling
where,

1676
02:07:25,566 --> 02:07:30,406
I mean, paying for Iranian ships and stuff like that, that's, that's one of the
higher

1677
02:07:30,406 --> 02:07:34,606
ceilings you'd have, right. When you have nation States paying for big things like
that,

1678
02:07:34,606 --> 02:07:38,926
it doesn't get much higher than that as far as that. And having liquidity for that,
like

1679
02:07:38,926 --> 02:07:44,806
if you want to send a $1 billion, you can on Bitcoin. You can't really on many other

1680
02:07:44,806 --> 02:07:49,026
chains. It's just, it's not there. You can't liquidate it on the other side, for
example.

1681
02:07:49,026 --> 02:07:53,486
So I think that it's kind of starting to get to that point where it's topping out. I
also

1682
02:07:53,486 --> 02:08:01,366
think that, um, it's by not staying, by staying the same, pretending everything's
okay is

1683
02:08:01,366 --> 02:08:07,326
kind of like let it coast for a while, but there's a couple events that are coming
up.

1684
02:08:07,326 --> 02:08:11,446
They're going to require changes. And I think that either Bitcoin is going to get a
second

1685
02:08:11,446 --> 02:08:15,966
win by making some very reasonable changes. And I think Drivechain should be one
of

1686
02:08:15,966 --> 02:08:22,026
those, uh, but probably won't be, uh, or it will fail with these changes. And then
that's

1687
02:08:22,026 --> 02:08:28,226
like the decline is, um, the sustainability ticking time bomb of like, how do you
pay

1688
02:08:28,346 --> 02:08:33,506
the miners, the security budget after each halving, how does it keep happening? And
do

1689
02:08:33,506 --> 02:08:39,066
you still trust Bitcoin as a, someone as investor, do you still trust Bitcoin if
it's

1690
02:08:39,066 --> 02:08:43,626
secure, if it's hash rate is actually going down over time as opposed to, you know,
still

1691
02:08:43,626 --> 02:08:46,946
going up, but not as high as the price. So that's number one. And number two is the

1692
02:08:46,946 --> 02:08:53,026
quantum thing. I don't think that the quantum competing threat is like, again, I,
I'm

1693
02:08:53,066 --> 02:08:57,666
so not smart enough to really intelligently talk on this, but my gut feeling is it's
not

1694
02:08:57,666 --> 02:09:03,586
going to be a huge problem in the short term. The problem is it has, it makes
Bitcoin

1695
02:09:03,586 --> 02:09:09,986
make a, a annoying binary decision, which is you have to either migrate to
post-quantum

1696
02:09:09,986 --> 02:09:12,746
addresses and then Satoshi's coins and all the others.

1697
02:09:13,146 --> 02:09:18,226
Uh, you either have to let them be stolen, in which case you reveal the true market
cap

1698
02:09:18,226 --> 02:09:21,866
of Bitcoin by saying, oh, it was only 12 million coins were actually accessible. The

1699
02:09:21,866 --> 02:09:25,666
rest were lost, for example. And then you have massive dumping on the market. And
then

1700
02:09:25,666 --> 02:09:30,346
the store value narrative takes a hit or you have to freeze people's coins or, and

1701
02:09:30,346 --> 02:09:34,826
you have to assume that they're no longer accessible, but they could have been
people's

1702
02:09:34,826 --> 02:09:38,346
coins. And then you're like, why would I buy Bitcoin if it can be confiscated
arbitrarily

1703
02:09:38,346 --> 02:09:43,906
in the future? So those things I think will shake it at some point. And then it will

1704
02:09:43,906 --> 02:09:48,906
start to have a, I don't think it's going to be a precipitous crash. I think it'll
start

1705
02:09:48,906 --> 02:09:53,826
to just like, you know, it gets, it hits escape, you know, cruising altitude with
the

1706
02:09:53,866 --> 02:09:57,546
institutions and everything. Government's the way it is now. I think this is about,
is

1707
02:09:57,546 --> 02:10:02,026
close to the ceiling. And then it just stays there and sort of shakes down slowly
over

1708
02:10:02,026 --> 02:10:06,306
time as other things take the headlines and take the users.

1709
02:10:06,306 --> 02:10:09,306
And then eventually people are like, hey, remember that Bitcoin one?

1710
02:10:09,306 --> 02:10:14,386
That's a, it's still, it's a, it's still at rank like 12 or 13, like, you know, but
it's

1711
02:10:14,866 --> 02:10:15,986
maybe not number one yet.

1712
02:10:16,306 --> 02:10:17,746
So, yeah, that's my thought.

1713
02:10:18,706 --> 02:10:19,866
I think it's a pretty good thought.

1714
02:10:20,866 --> 02:10:22,626
I think in particular.

1715
02:10:24,906 --> 02:10:29,626
Well, the quantum idea, I think this speaks to like.

1716
02:10:31,426 --> 02:10:36,146
People's fear because it's like this is it's such a shock to the existing culture
because

1717
02:10:36,146 --> 02:10:39,226
the culture is like Bitcoin is perfect and immortal.

1718
02:10:40,946 --> 02:10:45,546
Right. So this quantum thing shows up and it's like, oh, no, wait, maybe it's not.

1719
02:10:45,546 --> 02:10:47,066
Or maybe, maybe we don't know.

1720
02:10:47,066 --> 02:10:51,306
Or maybe it's maybe this is just FUD, but people kind of know in the back of their
head

1721
02:10:51,306 --> 02:10:52,346
that they can't tell.

1722
02:10:52,826 --> 02:10:56,146
Yeah. So I would agree with that would trigger that triggers people, I think.

1723
02:10:57,506 --> 02:11:00,186
Yeah, there's there's just so many.

1724
02:11:02,626 --> 02:11:09,666
Like the current trajectory goes to the abyss and Bitcoin's changes since

1725
02:11:09,786 --> 02:11:17,826
2016, maybe whatever it was with SegWit at that that trajectory, that almost
everything

1726
02:11:17,826 --> 02:11:22,386
that is done to help Bitcoin out or improve it or improve its market standing has
all

1727
02:11:22,386 --> 02:11:23,626
been off chain, right?

1728
02:11:23,626 --> 02:11:25,066
It's all been other things.

1729
02:11:25,386 --> 02:11:29,706
Either it's been trying to do lightning stuff or it's been stuff like getting it
into

1730
02:11:29,706 --> 02:11:32,186
strategic reserve legislation in the US.

1731
02:11:32,186 --> 02:11:35,066
It's been getting institutions, been Saylor buying it up.

1732
02:11:35,066 --> 02:11:40,106
It's been all this kind of stuff and eventually start to run into like those key

1733
02:11:40,106 --> 02:11:44,866
fundamental technical problems that Bitcoin has, which is not enough miner revenue
long

1734
02:11:44,866 --> 02:11:50,146
term, because why would you use the chain to that degree and or an increasing degree

1735
02:11:50,146 --> 02:11:53,386
from now? And then you have to do something about the quantum thread.

1736
02:11:53,386 --> 02:11:54,826
Those are technical changes.

1737
02:11:55,146 --> 02:12:00,826
Bitcoin has not made technical changes, really, that are meaningful technical
changes.

1738
02:12:01,266 --> 02:12:06,826
So I don't know how you'd paper over that with non-technical solutions.

1739
02:12:06,826 --> 02:12:12,986
You know, how do you bring money into the miners without bringing money into the

1740
02:12:12,986 --> 02:12:15,146
miners? Like, do you start a nonprofit?

1741
02:12:15,146 --> 02:12:17,346
Do you have government start to subsidize this?

1742
02:12:17,346 --> 02:12:20,666
Like, what do you do? And then what do you do as far as like the quantum stuff?

1743
02:12:20,666 --> 02:12:26,386
Do you just have this like post quantum signature scheme that people can move their

1744
02:12:26,386 --> 02:12:28,746
wallets to that uses some tap or whatever the hell?

1745
02:12:28,746 --> 02:12:30,826
I've seen someone talk about something like this, by the way.

1746
02:12:31,146 --> 02:12:35,706
Do you just do that and then just let quantum attackers take everyone else's coins
who

1747
02:12:35,706 --> 02:12:36,826
haven't moved there?

1748
02:12:37,306 --> 02:12:38,666
And like, is that what you do?

1749
02:12:38,666 --> 02:12:40,146
Like, I don't know.

1750
02:12:40,426 --> 02:12:47,026
We'll see. Yeah, most of the the creative things that would that would work the most

1751
02:12:47,026 --> 02:12:53,026
effectively in terms of like getting everyone to emergency switch from quantum

1752
02:12:53,026 --> 02:12:57,666
vulnerable to quantum safe, like that would probably involve some kind of like hard
fork

1753
02:12:57,666 --> 02:13:03,546
temporary block size increase for like those who want to go in one direction, like
in the

1754
02:13:03,546 --> 02:13:09,506
turnstile. It says like, OK, if you want to quantum shield your UTXO, then you have

1755
02:13:09,506 --> 02:13:12,426
unlimited block space for that so that we can all do it quickly.

1756
02:13:14,066 --> 02:13:19,146
Not only does that involve like all kinds of crazy, you know, block size debate all
over

1757
02:13:19,146 --> 02:13:21,226
again, but that would then involve like.

1758
02:13:22,226 --> 02:13:30,266
Chaos of the hard fork, and that would also force people to like, you know, use
their

1759
02:13:30,266 --> 02:13:35,426
private keys to make a signature like really quickly, there would be all this kind
of

1760
02:13:35,426 --> 02:13:42,666
chaos. Yeah, so that cuts again the whole Bitcoin like property rights, immortal

1761
02:13:42,666 --> 02:13:44,346
Bitcoin trope.

1762
02:13:45,266 --> 02:13:56,346
Yeah, there is just the oddly enough, like I kind of feel like the the the best

1763
02:13:56,346 --> 02:14:03,946
solution, the most do nothing solution is the most taboo, which is institute a tail

1764
02:14:03,946 --> 02:14:09,146
emission. And again, this is none of this is something I like, but institute a tail

1765
02:14:09,146 --> 02:14:13,346
emission that starts the base.

1766
02:14:14,466 --> 02:14:18,426
Just random idea is like, what if you started by just taking from coins that hadn't

1767
02:14:18,426 --> 02:14:22,386
moved in over 10 years and just turned them back into the block reward?

1768
02:14:22,786 --> 02:14:30,146
And if you ever ran out of things in the security pool, it would start inflating the

1769
02:14:30,146 --> 02:14:31,866
supply past 21 million.

1770
02:14:32,266 --> 02:14:36,266
And so basically it's first takes from all the dead coins.

1771
02:14:36,266 --> 02:14:40,946
And then if you want to prevent 21 million from being exceeded, you have to donate
to

1772
02:14:40,946 --> 02:14:47,066
this one address that then would go into the block reward and kind of maintain
things

1773
02:14:47,066 --> 02:14:50,906
the way it is. Well, these are all weird things that people doing instead of drive

1774
02:14:50,906 --> 02:14:55,506
chain, because Drivechain just says you have unlimited number of merge mined L2s and

1775
02:14:55,506 --> 02:15:00,226
you can collect an unlimited, you know, you can process unlimited and increasing
number

1776
02:15:00,226 --> 02:15:06,946
of transactions that it doesn't matter if this the rate of transaction grows
forever,

1777
02:15:06,946 --> 02:15:10,106
you know, geometrically and you can just get like more and more and more and more
and

1778
02:15:10,106 --> 02:15:13,866
more money. So, you know, Drivechain is just one of the many things that Drivechain

1779
02:15:13,866 --> 02:15:17,626
would completely solve and we wouldn't even be need to be talking about it.

1780
02:15:18,986 --> 02:15:23,986
I don't know about if, you know, we have one of the L2s, one of the Drivechains is

1781
02:15:23,986 --> 02:15:30,026
quantum resistant. So we have an L2 that has just basically a signature key scheme

1782
02:15:31,226 --> 02:15:33,306
that's just quantum resistant.

1783
02:15:34,506 --> 02:15:43,266
I don't know if that's to what extent that would placate the quantum doomers,
because

1784
02:15:43,266 --> 02:15:47,266
it wouldn't be on L1 and it wouldn't necessarily be in any other L2s.

1785
02:15:47,506 --> 02:15:52,386
It would at least, though, be like a demonstration of something that could work.

1786
02:15:52,386 --> 02:15:55,026
And it would also end the bike shedding to some extent, because it would say, well,

1787
02:15:55,026 --> 02:15:57,306
here's this one thing that someone tried and it worked.

1788
02:15:57,306 --> 02:16:01,386
So then because right now there's going to be lots of bike shedding overall, exactly

1789
02:16:01,386 --> 02:16:05,786
which thing. And so the whole thing will become kind of a circus.

1790
02:16:05,786 --> 02:16:10,346
It'll be interesting to see how strong the paralysis is in the face of a quantum.

1791
02:16:10,346 --> 02:16:12,186
And even now, it's kind of like.

1792
02:16:15,026 --> 02:16:18,906
It's like, you know, people have proposed Jameson, Lopp, et cetera, people propose

1793
02:16:18,906 --> 02:16:20,866
these things and everyone's like, well, we hate it.

1794
02:16:21,586 --> 02:16:27,746
It's very easy to hate something when you don't have to come up with your own thing,
of

1795
02:16:27,746 --> 02:16:31,346
course. So I don't know.

1796
02:16:32,626 --> 02:16:37,386
I'm not exactly sure what to make of it all myself, but that's why I think we need,
you

1797
02:16:37,386 --> 02:16:38,986
know, we've got to have those lifeboats ready.

1798
02:16:39,786 --> 02:16:40,786
Yeah, of course.

1799
02:16:41,226 --> 02:16:42,466
All kinds of different things.

1800
02:16:43,266 --> 02:16:49,746
It will be interesting to see how it develops because it's kind of like every
single.

1801
02:16:50,666 --> 02:16:58,586
It seems like one of the biggest concerns, I guess, or one of the biggest issues
with the

1802
02:16:58,586 --> 02:17:07,146
way the crypto market has played out is you either have single, you have single
purpose

1803
02:17:07,186 --> 02:17:13,146
alts, which was kind of like that's like 2017 era type, type 2014, 2017, which is
like,

1804
02:17:13,586 --> 02:17:16,986
let's do the thing that Bitcoin didn't do this one thing and then just kind of stick

1805
02:17:16,986 --> 02:17:23,266
there. And then you have like, try like no one's trying to copy Bitcoin in 2026.

1806
02:17:23,266 --> 02:17:25,106
Really? Maybe that's about it.

1807
02:17:25,106 --> 02:17:31,946
Right. But everyone else is like not everyone else is trying to do like the next
high

1808
02:17:31,946 --> 02:17:38,226
powered, super scalable EVM style VM to the max out your mother's ass kind of thing.

1809
02:17:38,226 --> 02:17:45,466
Like that's what they're doing. And it does seem that like having and having a
multiple

1810
02:17:46,666 --> 02:17:51,706
use case crypto that's still like you can have like you do the one thing, but you
can

1811
02:17:51,706 --> 02:17:52,906
also do other one things.

1812
02:17:52,906 --> 02:17:57,426
And each it's kind of like an it's like an alt collector, right, where it's like
you're

1813
02:17:57,426 --> 02:18:00,106
kind of launching as many altcoins as you want with this.

1814
02:18:00,386 --> 02:18:04,546
And so instead of launching a new altcoin, you just do it on this one.

1815
02:18:04,546 --> 02:18:08,266
So it keeps the capital all in there.

1816
02:18:08,266 --> 02:18:09,506
And so it could be right.

1817
02:18:09,506 --> 02:18:10,626
Exactly. Yes.

1818
02:18:12,266 --> 02:18:17,066
So that's the hope is that, you know, it can't succeed, you know, with only a few
people

1819
02:18:17,066 --> 02:18:18,986
get involved, it can't succeed.

1820
02:18:18,986 --> 02:18:23,186
I think, you know, it's going to be comparable to Bitcoin itself, where Bitcoin was

1821
02:18:23,186 --> 02:18:24,626
misunderstood for a little while.

1822
02:18:24,946 --> 02:18:30,986
But people slowly realized that actually this is like the only like this is the only
long

1823
02:18:30,986 --> 02:18:33,426
run sustainable type of a thing, I think.

1824
02:18:33,426 --> 02:18:35,066
But, you know, of course, could be wrong about that.

1825
02:18:35,306 --> 02:18:39,666
But yeah, I think like the sidechain idea has many benefits for like if you have a

1826
02:18:39,666 --> 02:18:44,346
really, really good if you're really good tech, if you have to do an altcoin, then

1827
02:18:44,346 --> 02:18:48,386
you're competing against other altcoins, which is kind of a really big drag because
you

1828
02:18:48,386 --> 02:18:52,306
have to compete on all these other dimensions, as you pointed out before.

1829
02:18:52,826 --> 02:18:59,706
But instead, if everyone does those together as a common project in the whole
system, now

1830
02:18:59,706 --> 02:19:01,626
you don't need to do all that other stuff.

1831
02:19:01,626 --> 02:19:05,986
You just need to have the best identity idea or whatever it is.

1832
02:19:07,746 --> 02:19:09,106
Yeah, many such cases.

1833
02:19:09,506 --> 02:19:10,946
Well, let's wrap this whole thing up.

1834
02:19:10,946 --> 02:19:18,186
We'll send you everyone to at Truthcoin on X, I guess, or the website is eCash.com,

1835
02:19:18,186 --> 02:19:21,266
which, you know, that's the the linchpin of the whole name.

1836
02:19:22,546 --> 02:19:26,026
If you are angry at so.

1837
02:19:27,186 --> 02:19:33,106
Please view and share this podcast, so I get more I need to get over 20,000 views on

1838
02:19:33,106 --> 02:19:37,866
YouTube, at least because then a Marissa Shea will be proven correct that I did this

1839
02:19:37,866 --> 02:19:42,586
just for the cheap clicks and I will get more cheap clicks than I got cheap clicks
on

1840
02:19:42,586 --> 02:19:47,826
his interview, which probably was bought based on like the amount of like I did not

1841
02:19:47,826 --> 02:19:49,866
expect that one to be the one to really take off.

1842
02:19:49,866 --> 02:19:51,386
So we could have been bought it.

1843
02:19:51,386 --> 02:19:55,386
Whatever. I'm not making accusations, but point is, please get it above his cheap

1844
02:19:55,386 --> 02:20:00,306
clicks. But yeah, just get some get some cash with the fork pre there.

1845
02:20:00,306 --> 02:20:03,066
You're going to pre sell Satoshi's coins, right?

1846
02:20:03,066 --> 02:20:04,746
You're going to you're holding an estate.

1847
02:20:04,746 --> 02:20:05,906
Yes, we have already.

1848
02:20:05,986 --> 02:20:08,506
Yeah, we have already basically.

1849
02:20:08,506 --> 02:20:10,506
Yes. Nice.

1850
02:20:10,506 --> 02:20:12,306
And where do people do that if they want to do that?

1851
02:20:12,306 --> 02:20:13,186
Well, I don't know.

1852
02:20:13,186 --> 02:20:15,866
I said like I'm trying to only do it with like.

1853
02:20:16,146 --> 02:20:18,026
But yeah, people can DM me on Twitter.

1854
02:20:18,066 --> 02:20:20,426
I mean, I'm not on either Twitter or Telegram.

1855
02:20:20,426 --> 02:20:21,626
I'm Pete Storch.

1856
02:20:21,626 --> 02:20:23,066
P.S. Z.T.R.C.

1857
02:20:23,546 --> 02:20:25,386
on Telegram. Please don't.

1858
02:20:26,026 --> 02:20:27,906
I'm just who knows all the scammers.

1859
02:20:27,906 --> 02:20:31,426
It's just going to be, you know, I fear for because the industry is the worst and

1860
02:20:31,426 --> 02:20:32,586
there's a million scammers everywhere.

1861
02:20:33,226 --> 02:20:39,466
But yeah, if you DM me on Twitter and I'll talk to you about it, if I would rather

1862
02:20:39,466 --> 02:20:43,706
have like people who really experts who know what they're getting into and that type

1863
02:20:43,706 --> 02:20:44,226
of thing. So.

1864
02:20:45,506 --> 02:20:46,506
Yeah, absolutely.

1865
02:20:46,706 --> 02:20:47,586
Well, it sounds good.

1866
02:20:48,426 --> 02:20:49,346
Thanks, everyone, for watching.

1867
02:20:49,346 --> 02:20:50,346
This has been a fun show.

1868
02:20:51,906 --> 02:20:58,506
Please subscribe and then also follow Paul and all his endeavors and enjoy the show
in

1869
02:20:58,506 --> 02:21:01,106
a little little bit. It's going to be it's going to be fun.

1870
02:21:01,106 --> 02:21:07,786
We saw the the eCash Amari's vision people upset at the name and some other people

1871
02:21:09,106 --> 02:21:12,026
wonder who the next group of people to be upset will be.

1872
02:21:12,026 --> 02:21:13,106
And that'll always be fun.

1873
02:21:13,106 --> 02:21:15,306
So thank you for your master troll work.

1874
02:21:15,866 --> 02:21:17,346
Are you going to be at the Bitcoin conference, by the way?

1875
02:21:17,346 --> 02:21:19,146
I forget. I will.

1876
02:21:19,706 --> 02:21:24,146
OK, well, without telling without giving too much information away, so will I.

1877
02:21:24,466 --> 02:21:30,506
So run into either, I guess, one of us, either of us, both of us and yell at us
about

1878
02:21:30,506 --> 02:21:32,666
the name or whatever you want to yell at us for.

1879
02:21:32,706 --> 02:21:36,306
Yeah, she's coins and yeah, all of the above.

1880
02:21:36,346 --> 02:21:37,386
All right. See you guys.

1881
02:21:37,386 --> 02:21:38,586
Have a great weekend. Bye bye.

1882
02:21:47,346 --> 02:22:01,986
Adam, we're here because we love you and we're all tired of watching you get abused.

1883
02:22:01,986 --> 02:22:03,626
Abused? By who?

1884
02:22:04,906 --> 02:22:06,266
Hi, I'm Visa.

1885
02:22:06,586 --> 02:22:11,906
I charge you 29 percent interest, 3 percent foreign fees and make you wait three
days

1886
02:22:11,906 --> 02:22:13,346
to see if your payment went through.

1887
02:22:13,946 --> 02:22:15,266
But I thought you were my friend.

1888
02:22:15,786 --> 02:22:18,506
Huh? No, Dash is your friend.

1889
02:22:18,866 --> 02:22:21,426
Instant, private, under a penny.

1890
02:22:21,626 --> 02:22:26,946
And with Dash Spend, you walk into over 100,000 stores and pay like a boss.

1891
02:22:45,266 --> 02:22:50,146
All ready, yes.

1892
02:22:56,586 --> 02:22:57,866
Awesome, thank you very much.

1893
02:22:59,306 --> 02:23:00,666
Feel alive, guys.

1894
02:23:01,066 --> 02:23:02,066
This is awesome.

1895
02:23:06,426 --> 02:23:07,346
Tastes like freedom.

1896
02:23:08,346 --> 02:23:10,466
Why don't I save five percent by using the app?

1897
02:23:11,306 --> 02:23:12,426
That's the Dash. Hi, baby.

1898
02:23:12,426 --> 02:23:14,186
Let's go. Download the mobile wallet.

1899
02:23:14,186 --> 02:23:16,186
One tap, boom, financial sovereignty.