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Alright, I think we're almost live here. We're live. We've got a big audience today
and I'm excited. We are live.

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What's up, party people? This is Chris DeRose, and with me today is the one, the
only, Paul Sztorc.

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Paul, introduce yourself while I turn off the AC system here. Hold on.

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Okay. My name is Paul Sztorc. It's actually Paul Sztorc, but it's unpronounceable,
unspellable Polish last name.

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God, what else do you need to know, right? I mean, I hate introductions. They're ad
hominem fallacies, aren't they?

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I hate, that's why I never watch, I hate going to the conferences live. I always
watch later so I can skip the introduction.

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I hate the introduction. It is completely irrelevant.

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You scammed whoever was at the conference. They let you speak, so you cleared the
bar. I scammed Chris DeRose into letting me speak on his show.

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So that's it. That is the introduction, right? Who cares about what I say about
myself?

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No kidding. I'll do something more ironic.

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This is Chris DeRose, and I am manspreading right now. No one ever asks what's
underneath the table, but now you know they're wide open legs.

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Paul, are your legs crossed?

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No, they are not crossed.

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Are you similarly manspread?

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You know, I think I would say so, just slightly.

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All right, that's the intro. There you go. It's just as meaningful as any other
intro you've ever heard.

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Let's get started. Let's start off with Giacomo. What do you think? Is that a good
place to go?

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Okay, yeah. Well, that's why I wanted to come on, because I listened to your
interview with Giacomo, and I thought it was pretty good.

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It is good like a primer. So you throw it on your walls, and before you put all the
real paint on.

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So by that I mean it's really good if you're new, and you want to get up to speed on
a lot of things that are commonly believed.

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And that's really good. Giacomo's point of view is very representative.

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He's managed to absorb all the different points of view and slowly kind of set them
against each other and disentangle most of the contradictions, but not all of them.

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But he's not here, so I don't really want to do a thing where I totally criticize
stuff that he says, because he's not here to maybe clarify or defend the points.

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But I thought that what he said was good, but I thought there was a lot of stuff
missing. So that's kind of why I wanted to come on the show.

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I love all conversations. They're some of my favorites.

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Should we go over either what you disagreed with, what you thought was important?

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Okay, well, you know, it's hard because everything is so nuanced and complicated.

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But basically I think there is a little bit of a shell game or an overgeneralization
where certain things are bad ideas, but that doesn't disqualify the entire creative
process.

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So what I mean by that is SegWit2x was not a good idea, and I didn't support it.

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And there's a long story about why, and in fact, a couple of prominent people even
emailed around, even before I, without my knowledge, I didn't find this out until
later.

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When SegWit2x was announced, they were like, oh, why don't you just do, you know, a
large block drive chain, and you could have all sorts to it, and it would definitely
have been done with all that kind of support.

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It would have been done, you know, before August. So there's a long story with that.

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And then the futures markets came out, and it split 85-15, and so you knew it just
wouldn't work.

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Like, I knew completely that it wouldn't work, and I knew why.

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But I don't really want to talk about myself. What I mean is that the fact that
SegWit2x was not a good idea, and the fact that it failed, and that it was a good
thing that it failed,

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that does not disqualify the entire process of science, which is subjecting
knowledge to criticism and trying to improve it by unearthing these errors.

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And so I think what Giacomo has done, and what you didn't really challenge him
enough on, is that he's saying, like, well, we have this one side, and our side is
really well done.

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And look at that other side. That other side is a complete joke, and he even said it
was impossible to compare the two.

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That's not the way I feel at all, and so hopefully we'll get into that. It is
possible to compare the two.

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But he's saying, I totally reject that the other side exists in any serious form,
and we've got all of our stuff figured out.

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And then a lot of the stuff was kind of based on this, on one or two things where
there was a consensus against one or two things, SegWit2x being one, larger blocks
being another.

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But I think that invalidates the entire ... he's trying to invalidate, like, for
example, Coinbase, which has the number one app in the App Store.

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It's like a unicorn Silicon Valley giant company that has all these users.

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He's trying to invalidate, you know, Roger Ver, who's incredibly connected and
motivated, has all these resources.

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Very, like, Kai, you know, in the past few months has been flipping people to
Bitcoin Cash.

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He's just trying to say it's not serious.

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Yeah, exactly. Okay, so are you saying that he's trying to create social distance
for the purpose of marginalizing a demographic that's real? Would that be a fair
characterization?

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Yeah, I think that's ... the crux of the matter is I don't think he realizes that
he's just campaigning.

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So he brought up in his speech with you, he brought up that it wouldn't be weird if
a politician said something that was the party line.

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But it was something that was, you know, they didn't believe or that wasn't serious.

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So he, in fact, introduced this example where he says, like, it wouldn't be if you
had a Republican candidate and they said some random Republican thing that was part
of the Republican canon and the, you know, the platform.

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He said it wouldn't be, and he was right, he said it wouldn't be taken as that
strange.

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Because everyone knows that you're not supposed to say what you really believe.

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You're just supposed to say whatever performance will maximize your chances.

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And even the diehard Republican Party members, they know that they're only in the
party for the convenience and the odds, you know, the fact that it will help them
win.

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So they'll say, they'll make whatever excuse they can for their candidate.

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They'll say, you know, you go, buddy.

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Like, whatever gets us to that win on election night, any weird lie or anything like
that.

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But I don't think he realizes that he's doing it, which is unfortunate because then
how can you be trusted on anything that you say from that point forward?

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Well, this is like the Spuderman of finance, and it's going to be the Spuderman of
governance, is my suspicion.

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So, like, what I think, we'll see how this interview goes and how this discussion
goes.

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But for the audience that's tuning in right now, what seems to be the elephant in
the room of Bitcoin politics is the time and place for motivated ignorance.

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It seems that many of us are coming to the conclusion that there is, in fact, a
class system and that we should motivate ignorance in those who are not part of the
know.

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And I think what I'll probably propose is adding to the nomenclature of Bitcoin that
we should call this underprivileged class the hoi polloi.

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You can look it up if you'd like. It's rooted in a lot more depth than I'm going to
present on the show.

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But if, in fact, the Bitcoin hoi polloi is real, then we have all kinds of hilarious
questions.

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And what's also funny, and you know this about Bitcoin, we'll have a meta discussion
about ourselves to the degree that, like, makes it OK, but also invalidates the
original point.

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But which also doesn't matter because we'll go ahead anyways, having gone through
the thought exercise and arrived at a conclusion.

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That's my suspicion. So I guess you tell me if you agree or disagree, and let's, I
guess, continue from here.

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Yeah, OK. So let me try to translate that for some of your poor listeners.

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So I think what Chris is saying is that there are these people, everyone's knowledge
is sort of different and their expertise is different because of specialization, and
that is inevitable and a good thing.

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But what it means is that you have to outsource some of the things that you know,
and you have to trust some people, which is very funny because we are now escaping.

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We're going back to the pre-Bitcoin world. We're regressing to it.

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You have to trust certain experts. And because there's no, you aren't as specialized
as they are, and you have your own life and you have your own specialization.

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And so you've got to choose who you're going to outsource your beliefs to.

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And then when you do that, you have this tremendous potential for them to either
mislead you or to be lazy or for something to get lost in translation.

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And when many people...

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Or succeed.

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Sorry? Yeah.

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Or succeed. That should be fine.

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The other thing is if it's done well, then you have a very cohesive group. No
infighting. Everyone is on the same page to defeat the other candidate.

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Of course, like you couldn't win if one side had a political party.

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If you had the Democrats and then you had a bunch of individuals, they would be
crushed by the mathematics of voting.

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There would be no way. And in fact, this is why, you know, you can't.

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This is why we have primaries and political parties in the first place, because
everyone figured out long ago that if you...

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Because Ken Arrow won the Nobel Prize for this in part, but people figured it out
before he won the Nobel Prize.

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Ken Arrow won the Nobel Prize for proving that it would actually be impossible to
solve.

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There's absolutely no way of fixing this problem.

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But even before Ken Arrow proved it was impossible to solve, people realized that,
you know, you have a left party, you have a right party.

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And you add a new candidate who's even further to the left.

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You might pick up some people on the left.

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I mean, you are likely to pick up some votes for him, super left.

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You know, Bernie Sanders was Hillary Clinton versus whatever, Jeb Bush, let's say,
just to make it a little, you know, cleaner.

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And so Jeb Bush, Hillary Clinton, and then you add Bernie Sanders further to the
left.

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Bernie Sanders is going to clip away the Hillary Clinton votes because they're both
on the left.

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And that means they'll be divided and lose.

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So adding someone further to the left will move the entire election result further
to the right.

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It will be irrational.

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So groups are very important.

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That is not a function of democracy or first past the post.

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It is a function of everything.

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Check out Ken Arrow's impossibility paradox, if you like that kind of thing.

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It's impossible, though.

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So, yeah, so groups are important.

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And that's kind of what you were trying to say to Giacomo, which is also I think
sometimes – I think – I don't know where I heard this, but maybe I'm just making it
up.

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But there's something like a Machiavellian imperative or something, which is
something along the lines of if –

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Florida sounds.

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It sounds like Florida.

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Yeah, it sounds Florida.

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So it's like if we have a bunch of people who are willing to do anything to win,
like torture children or whatever, they will do whatever it takes.

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Yeah, but that's group A.

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And then it's like you want group B to defeat them somehow.

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But group B is constrained by these weird ethics.

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So how?

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They're just making their position worse and worse.

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Either they're just superfluous constraints that aren't very meaningful, right?

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Because who cares about a constraint that doesn't really matter?

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But if the constraints aren't meaningful, then you're just saying you're putting the
ethical side at a disadvantage.

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It's kind of this idea that you have to just be as ruthless as the other people are
willing to be, which might be maximally ruthless.

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So that's what you were trying to say to him about like, oh, should we have secrets?

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Should we have meetings?

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Should we have all this efficiency?

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I don't think he really—he didn't really engage with that point, I thought.

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You're right.

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Well, I have to say, you and I have been around for a good while in this space.

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Giacomo probably has as well.

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But when we first started here, there was this idea that we could, together, with
transparency and goodwill and empathy, create a better world.

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Right.

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And it was naive for so many reasons.

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We were just like, well, if we pursue this idea of liberty and we believe, then good
things will come.

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And what happened was, I guess, what was completely expected in hindsight.

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The masses came, like, just in droves.

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But what was surprising, I think, to me was that they didn't comport with our
morality, our cognition, our sense of purpose.

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And, in fact, outnumbered us in the end, or at least to the present day, to where
they are here, albeit the dumbest people in every room they're ever in.

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Yes.

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And, like, you can plot blockchains like ascendancy to normies in the sense that the
number of yogis per capita was zero for, like, the first four years.

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And then just steadily, the number of, like, yogis per capita has been increasing.

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And, like, I don't even mean it, like, derogatory to yoga.

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But, like, I go into these rooms now, and with a straight face, I hear these
blockchain experts who, that's their pedigree.

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Like, they've been studying yoga for ten years, and that's what makes them good at
blockchain.

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And I can't even argue it at this point.

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That might actually make them good at blockchain.

143
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But for people like Jacoma, you, and I, and many of the original people, we have to
figure something out.

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Because, like, those people are very easy to steer, and they're very hard to, like,
they didn't reason their way to their beliefs.

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They, uh, all kinds of things happen, but typically, the first person to get to them
is the person to set the anchor from which their beliefs sprung.

146
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And they will argue until they're blue in the face to defend the relationship they
had with that original person, and or the sanctity that they feel for that initial
experience.

147
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And so, like, what do you do with that?

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Yeah, well, you took it in many directions at once, I think.

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But let's go back to the very first thing you said, which is that we have this naive
understanding.

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I don't think it was totally naive.

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I just think that the skills that are required to keep a community, I think it was
not understood that a blockchain is like a community.

152
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And it's, you make a shared sacrifice of different things, and in return, everyone
in your community is bound by those rules.

153
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And an obvious way of seeing it is, of course, in Bitcoin, there are rules against
double spending, and rules against broadcasting invalid transactions, and definitely
invalid blocks.

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You know, you get a big ban, you get thrown right out of the community if you do
that, you know.

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So I don't think, even though that was clear, it was not very well understood, or
salient.

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People weren't really thinking about blockchain equals community.

157
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And so I think people didn't realize that the skills required to keep a blockchain
kind of together are actually similar to the, yeah, we're a lot of Florida today.

158
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Yeah, this is especially pronounced.

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Spring break.

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Spring break this week.

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Okay, there you go.

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And yeah, it's a good week for spring break because it's freezing here in the
northeast.

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It's horrible.

164
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It's really terrible.

165
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It's nice and bright, though.

166
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We've got our sun back.

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Anyway, the skills required to keep a community together, those are like different
skills than like being able to program C++ well, you know.

168
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So we have a leadership that doesn't actually know literally like what the problem
is or what it's doing because the reaction.

169
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Well, apparently they knew enough, or we knew enough, or however you want to draw
those lines, because the rejection of Bitcoin XT was sort of successful.

170
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I mean, we have this stuff where people are kicked out of Bitcoin, and then they
form their own groups.

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And for a while, those groups were ignorable.

172
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And now I think they're less ignorable.

173
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So maybe that's where the conversation should go from here.

174
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But I think that's the naive thing was that it would be a computer science project.

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Agreed.

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It's not a computer science project really at all.

177
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Well, it sort of is, but it's really not, though.

178
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It's a different project.

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It's a political project, or like a leadership project that is sort of, I don't know
what to say, like bolstered or kind of, it is kind of like a bulwark or a kind of
defense around this political project that is made out of computer science.

180
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So it's something that is really helped by the fact that these technologies exist,
but it's really more of a political movement all along.

181
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And so the idea that you would have to maintain the cohesion of this group, that was
something that we should have appreciated.

182
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But I think people didn't really appreciate.

183
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But I don't think the original position was naive, because there was always this
way, which is sidechains.

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There was always a way of keeping the same community together, but there was not as
much interest in that.

185
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And I think that is also where the conversation should go.

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So we can talk about why that is the case, I think.

187
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Or we can talk about...

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Well, something I realized with Giacomo is that this project, this whole space, this
frontier that we're exploring, started in a world where censorship was real.

189
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And in that world, there were a lot of things that we did to prepare, to strengthen,
and to motivate what we thought the citizens would need.

190
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And absent any form of censorship whatsoever, the frontier has expanded into a place
where computer science is not only irrelevant, I'm not even sure that mining is
irrelevant.

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It may almost be a stigma.

192
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Right.

193
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But I know what you mean.

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Well, let me rephrase it just a little bit, just to maybe help the audience again.

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Certainly.

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You imagine a rich ecology or something, and some bacteria develops some kind of
antibiotic resistance or something like that, because the bacteria is worried about
the day when this antibiotic will show up and just kill off everything.

197
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That's not whatever, gram-negative, whatever, resistant.

198
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It's a strain of whatever, whatever.

199
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But let's just say that has some tiny little cost.

200
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And meanwhile, there's all this other bacteria that's not antibiotic resistant.

201
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And now it's thriving because there are no antibiotics.

202
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So it's eating up all the food and all this other stuff, taking all the good spots
or whatever it is.

203
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So there's this ecology here, and there's a multidimensionality to it.

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And being antibiotic resistant is only one dimension.

205
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So you're right.

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Bitcoin is designed with this one thing in mind.

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Again, it's irrelevant because with sidechains, you can have all the different
strains that you want, and they can all be the same.

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So this whole thing is kind of surreal for me because even when I first heard about
drivechain in November 2015, even at the very top of the little summary, it says
that you can have Bitcoin and Bitcoin XT at the same time, and they can be
peacefully coexisting.

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So the whole kind of thing is just kind of dumb to me.

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I really kind of have a little bit of a smugness about the whole debate because I
really see that sort of a transcendent – the sidechains is like a transcendent
philosophy.

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It just says it doesn't matter.

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You can make all your own mistakes on a sidechain if you want.

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But at this point, again, we've drawn the conversation off into yet another thread,
but we can talk about how entrenched the political thinking has become where the
idea of the other party getting what they want is an utterly foreign one.

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People's creativity has been so disabled by the conversation that they can't
appreciate many points of view.

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One of them is – well, you could call sidechains kind of an extreme ecumenical
position maybe.

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I don't know.

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I'm not sure if you could.

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I think maybe you would almost not even need ecumenism.

219
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What do you get – in a world without censorship resistance, what do you get from a
sidechain if not Bitcoin virtue compliant?

220
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That's a good point.

221
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It's a fair – yeah.

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If you don't need mining, then maybe you don't even need sidechains, which is to say
who cares about the hash rate security per block or who cares about being
interoperable with Bitcoin.

223
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In fact, it is a disadvantage because Bitcoin is slandered as being part of the dark
web or these other things, whereas Ethereum gets a free pass.

224
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There's no congressional hearings where someone brings up Ethereum, and then they
say it's used in darknet markets.

225
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We could easily – it would be very funny if there were people in the Bitcoin
community who tried to write smart contracts on Ethereum that were especially
distasteful or something to try and work that angle so that it would apply equally.

226
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As you say, there's this world where we don't – Bitcoin has a certain set of design
parameters, but if it doesn't match the world, then Bitcoin won't be a good fit.

227
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If the world isn't actually dealing the censorship out, then it's just – all of it
is just dead weight, which is an interesting thought.

228
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Yeah. Well, to be clear, because I got Shinobis in here who's being Shinobis, I do
believe that censorship resistance matters.

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I think that we are in a pre-action phase of blockchain and that the tide will turn
there, but that makes the timing for any project really hard that's a Bitcoin
project.

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I'm looking at Rootstock, who is trying to do the sidechain and Bitcoin virtue
compliance. That is kind of their pitch, even.

231
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It's that they do all the things that Ethereum does, but with Bitcoin virtue.

232
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With Bitcoin virtue, exactly. Precisely.

233
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Right. And here's the other thing, too. I just spent the weekend in Puerto Rico with
a lot of the EOS people, and I don't think a single one of them gives a crap about
Bitcoin.

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Right.

235
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That's it. Yeah.

236
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No, I agree. A lot of these people don't.

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And now you don't hear – now you always hear the phrase, like, Bitcoin and
cryptocurrencies.

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It's just a given that there are other ones. I don't think that should be the case.
It should not be a given.

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And the experiments should be on different blockchains, but they should be
sidechains, in my opinion.

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So now let's tie it back to the Hoyt-Polloy idea, which is that does what other
people think matter?

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And I think the answer is clearly yes, because of the very strong network effects of
money.

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I mean, we see what does the U.S. dollar have going for it, other than the fiat
Hoyt-Polloy or whatever.

243
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Yeah.

244
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It really is annoying to open a checking account with all this stuff. You need all
this ID. It takes all this effort.

245
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You've got to maintain a minimum balance. They're reporting everything you do to the
IRS and to the government, and there's an inflation tax.

246
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And it's really not that convenient for merchants to accept fiat currency or for you
to use it, other than the fact that everyone is using it.

247
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And so there's this huge—it's not like you don't know how to pay with cash at a
store.

248
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You know because your parents told you or your friends told you, and you've been
doing it for the last 30 years, so you know exactly how.

249
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But the only reason you have all that is because of this huge network effect.

250
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Well, you know, I was watching the Pledge of Allegiance for the first time in a
while, and as I was watching it,

251
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I was thinking to myself, you know, there's a degree of indoctrination that goes
with that.

252
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And to be clear, I love America. America is my primary grouping.

253
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But even still, and I think it's a good thing to do even for this reinforcement,

254
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but the hoi polloi need to be reminded that they have an allegiance, and they even
at a young age

255
00:25:11,820 --> 00:25:15,820
need to be indoctrinated into that allegiance. And therein lies a lot of the value
in the dollar.

256
00:25:15,820 --> 00:25:19,820
Like, we would conceivably be well-served

257
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by a Pledge of Allegiance to Bitcoin that was

258
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required of our children as Bitcoin hodlers,

259
00:25:27,820 --> 00:25:31,820
which is hilarious. Someone should write that, if only because it's so funny.

260
00:25:31,820 --> 00:25:35,820
It is funny. Well, yeah, it's true. I mean, joining a group is efficient.

261
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In many cases, you have no choice. So something like the ozone layer

262
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around the Earth, and we have the Montreal Protocol. We said everyone's going to
stop

263
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creating CFC gas because it's destroying the ozone layer.

264
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And we're all stuck. We've only got one planet,

265
00:25:51,820 --> 00:25:55,820
so it's not like we can just teleport to other planets and then the planets can
compete

266
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on their ozone policy or something.

267
00:25:59,820 --> 00:26:03,820
We're all in the same boat when it comes to certain things.

268
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We can't have someone do a weird physics project,

269
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and they built the CERN particle accelerator.

270
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Someone had to check. I think it was actually Stephen Hawking,

271
00:26:15,820 --> 00:26:19,820
RIP. But they had to check to make sure that it wouldn't create a tiny black hole

272
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that would just obliterate the entire planet.

273
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And if it would, and someone wanted to do it anyway,

274
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people would have bombed them or whatever.

275
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At a certain point, you have no choice because the interrelatedness of everyone

276
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takes on a form that is just not ignorable.

277
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So there are benefits to being in a group,

278
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and it's very funny when you have things like the Pledge of Allegiance.

279
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It's known in psychology and in game theory that it doesn't matter

280
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if the information is false. It can still be very, very persuasive

281
00:26:55,820 --> 00:26:59,820
because you just don't know what else to do. Lots of people complain about Facebook.

282
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Facebook rolls out a new layout, and they say, I hate this layout. But where are you
going to go instead?

283
00:27:03,820 --> 00:27:07,820
You'd have to go somewhere else, and then you'd have to persuade all of your friends
to go.

284
00:27:07,820 --> 00:27:11,820
But when are all of your friends going to go?

285
00:27:11,820 --> 00:27:15,820
Only if they can persuade all of their friends to go. Some of your friends will be
difficult to reach,

286
00:27:15,820 --> 00:27:19,820
and some of them don't go on Facebook every day.

287
00:27:19,820 --> 00:27:23,820
The task just becomes basically impossible, and the same thing goes for the U.S.
dollar,

288
00:27:23,820 --> 00:27:27,820
and the same thing goes for U.S. laws.

289
00:27:27,820 --> 00:27:31,820
We know the laws aren't perfect. Slavery used to be the law.

290
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Women used to not be able to vote.

291
00:27:35,820 --> 00:27:39,820
What are you going to do instead? There is no clear alternative,

292
00:27:39,820 --> 00:27:43,820
but we have the legislative branch to theoretically

293
00:27:43,820 --> 00:27:47,820
fix the laws, and we have the judicial branch to theoretically root out

294
00:27:47,820 --> 00:27:51,820
inconsistencies in the laws. Of course, in practice, they don't do

295
00:27:51,820 --> 00:27:55,820
a great job, but they do some job. But yeah, it's like, what are you going to do?

296
00:27:55,820 --> 00:27:59,820
If you're not going to use that, what are you going to use? And that's the problem.

297
00:27:59,820 --> 00:28:03,820
It's the hoi polloi. It's the problem.

298
00:28:03,820 --> 00:28:07,820
I hate to be as classist as I'm going to sound, but we need to ask what the hoi
polloi

299
00:28:07,820 --> 00:28:11,820
need in order to stay content, and the answer has been fast gains.

300
00:28:11,820 --> 00:28:15,820
The hoi polloi were going to these projects because Bitcoin wasn't delivering

301
00:28:15,820 --> 00:28:19,820
the gains that they felt were reasonable, and I don't know to the degree that we can
really

302
00:28:19,820 --> 00:28:23,820
satisfy that without an enforcement of

303
00:28:23,820 --> 00:28:27,820
the nonsense, so maybe we have to wait and let that distraction

304
00:28:27,820 --> 00:28:31,820
run its course. Because think about it. By the EMH,

305
00:28:31,820 --> 00:28:35,820
fast gains cannot be just

306
00:28:35,820 --> 00:28:39,820
delivered. You can change aspects of the project

307
00:28:39,820 --> 00:28:43,820
so that it gains a lot of money.

308
00:28:43,820 --> 00:28:47,820
You can pack all the losses onto a tiny square that you hope that you

309
00:28:47,820 --> 00:28:51,820
don't hit for the next 40 days or something,

310
00:28:51,820 --> 00:28:55,820
and so you can do this weird stuff where all the losses are hidden in one spot,

311
00:28:55,820 --> 00:28:59,820
and then it looks like you've got fast gains, but then it explodes, and the loss is
more

312
00:28:59,820 --> 00:29:03,820
than wipe it out.

313
00:29:03,820 --> 00:29:07,820
You saw that with these groups, though. The Bitcoiners would be like, no, there's a
science here,

314
00:29:07,820 --> 00:29:11,820
and it says this, and then the masses were just like,

315
00:29:11,820 --> 00:29:15,820
they couldn't understand that. They literally could not understand that. We were
asking too much

316
00:29:15,820 --> 00:29:19,820
of them in many ways, so they went ahead and did it anyways, and then,

317
00:29:19,820 --> 00:29:23,820
absent any use, absent any censorship,

318
00:29:23,820 --> 00:29:27,820
these things took off like rockets because they all appealed to each other's sense
of

319
00:29:27,820 --> 00:29:31,820
nonsense. It was weird. It makes sense now,

320
00:29:31,820 --> 00:29:35,820
but someone comes to you and says they need a time machine, and you're like, I'm not
going to build it because that's retarded.

321
00:29:35,820 --> 00:29:39,820
But then he goes to his friends, and they all put it together, and it's just like

322
00:29:39,820 --> 00:29:43,820
pasted together with glue and sticks. That's fine.

323
00:29:43,820 --> 00:29:47,820
Absent regulation, the hoi poi will, in fact, set themselves on fire,

324
00:29:47,820 --> 00:29:51,820
and I realize that now.

325
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Who knows how people may learn about things

326
00:29:55,820 --> 00:29:59,820
or what new institutions would develop to help

327
00:29:59,820 --> 00:30:03,820
protect them.

328
00:30:03,820 --> 00:30:07,820
This is another thing you were trying to explain

329
00:30:07,820 --> 00:30:11,820
to Shinobis, I think, where it's like

330
00:30:11,820 --> 00:30:15,820
if a riot breaks out, sticking near

331
00:30:15,820 --> 00:30:19,820
the people who are visibly similar to you,

332
00:30:19,820 --> 00:30:23,820
maybe they're the same race or something, that is sort of an institution.

333
00:30:23,820 --> 00:30:27,820
Wow, this is a bit of a loaded term, but it's literally

334
00:30:27,820 --> 00:30:31,820
a racial institution.

335
00:30:31,820 --> 00:30:35,820
That is, to a first approximation, something that you would use

336
00:30:35,820 --> 00:30:39,820
and you would say, or someone with a similar tattoo or something

337
00:30:39,820 --> 00:30:43,820
like that, anything that's something that you know

338
00:30:43,820 --> 00:30:47,820
represents some tangible way of sorting the groups together

339
00:30:47,820 --> 00:30:51,820
and you could say something like, okay, we have some substrate upon which we could

340
00:30:51,820 --> 00:30:55,820
make these teams that you and I just discussed are

341
00:30:55,820 --> 00:30:59,820
efficient and effective.

342
00:30:59,820 --> 00:31:03,820
But you see that in the Tinkerbell effect, what works

343
00:31:03,820 --> 00:31:07,820
is what is majority.

344
00:31:07,820 --> 00:31:11,820
It's a nuanced point, right? When something first starts

345
00:31:11,820 --> 00:31:15,820
off, there is no Tinkerbell effect

346
00:31:15,820 --> 00:31:19,820
and it's all meritocracy, it's all meritocratic, because

347
00:31:19,820 --> 00:31:23,820
no one has joined yet. Even if there are network effects, it doesn't matter.

348
00:31:23,820 --> 00:31:27,820
If you have Facebook with a layout that people like and Facebook with a layout that
people don't like,

349
00:31:27,820 --> 00:31:31,820
it doesn't matter how many, because both of them have zero users.

350
00:31:31,820 --> 00:31:35,820
But over time, you get more and more users and

351
00:31:35,820 --> 00:31:39,820
eventually now the network effects tend to dominate the meritocratic

352
00:31:39,820 --> 00:31:43,820
effects. That's what I believe anyway. I think you see that happen many, many times.

353
00:31:43,820 --> 00:31:47,820
The Twitter 280 characters or these other things.

354
00:31:47,820 --> 00:31:51,820
It doesn't matter, even if most of the people, if the network effect is really
strong,

355
00:31:51,820 --> 00:31:55,820
we know there's stuff in the United States that definitely a huge

356
00:31:55,820 --> 00:31:59,820
majority of people do not support.

357
00:31:59,820 --> 00:32:03,820
It would be funny to find all these random lists.

358
00:32:03,820 --> 00:32:07,820
There are these crazy laws that no one really

359
00:32:07,820 --> 00:32:11,820
has ever been happy with.

360
00:32:11,820 --> 00:32:15,820
They tend to be around loaded issues and things where you can

361
00:32:15,820 --> 00:32:19,820
smuggle these things around. Some are like the domestic spying.

362
00:32:19,820 --> 00:32:23,820
No one has ever supported that, but everyone just keeps their mouth shut about it

363
00:32:23,820 --> 00:32:27,820
because they don't want to be spied on or be accused of helping

364
00:32:27,820 --> 00:32:31,820
terrorism or these other things. I think the drug war, I'm

365
00:32:31,820 --> 00:32:35,820
not sure if you had reliable private polls or that.

366
00:32:35,820 --> 00:32:39,820
I think the support for it is super low,

367
00:32:39,820 --> 00:32:43,820
but we have it anyway. We have all this stuff that

368
00:32:43,820 --> 00:32:47,820
no one really...

369
00:32:47,820 --> 00:32:51,820
It's the loud minority, and this has been written up by

370
00:32:51,820 --> 00:32:55,820
Rakhont.

371
00:32:55,820 --> 00:32:59,820
Is that right? But it's true. What I'm noticing, I see this having

372
00:32:59,820 --> 00:33:03,820
primarily been explored by the left

373
00:33:03,820 --> 00:33:07,820
in America, but this notion of disgust and outrage as

374
00:33:07,820 --> 00:33:11,820
an emotional appeal over rationalization

375
00:33:11,820 --> 00:33:15,820
has been extremely effective in motivating large groups of people

376
00:33:15,820 --> 00:33:19,820
from a minority grouping.

377
00:33:19,820 --> 00:33:23,820
I just think it depends on lots of different things.

378
00:33:23,820 --> 00:33:27,820
In the United States, the elections,

379
00:33:27,820 --> 00:33:31,820
there's lots of gerrymandering. There's lots of apathy. No one really cares.

380
00:33:31,820 --> 00:33:35,820
You need to move the needle on just a few persuadable

381
00:33:35,820 --> 00:33:39,820
voters in the swing districts or the swing states.

382
00:33:39,820 --> 00:33:43,820
There's only 10 or so swing states, sometimes 8.

383
00:33:43,820 --> 00:33:47,820
There's very few persuadable voters.

384
00:33:47,820 --> 00:33:51,820
Somehow you need to get to them.

385
00:33:51,820 --> 00:33:55,820
It's not going to work if people say,

386
00:33:55,820 --> 00:33:59,820
I don't really support the drug war, I oppose the drug war,

387
00:33:59,820 --> 00:34:03,820
but I don't really feel that strongly about it. If people say something like that,

388
00:34:03,820 --> 00:34:07,820
it's not really going to bleed through. What you need to say is that

389
00:34:07,820 --> 00:34:11,820
Hillary Clinton is literally the devil, blah, blah, blah.

390
00:34:11,820 --> 00:34:15,820
Anyone who votes for Donald Trump is no better than

391
00:34:15,820 --> 00:34:19,820
the Nazis and all this stuff. You need to totally go for the extreme.

392
00:34:19,820 --> 00:34:23,820
These kind of

393
00:34:23,820 --> 00:34:27,820
swing voter, they're just showing up at the ballot because

394
00:34:27,820 --> 00:34:31,820
they've been told that that's the right thing to do. They couldn't think of anything
else to do

395
00:34:31,820 --> 00:34:35,820
with their Tuesday. They're just like,

396
00:34:35,820 --> 00:34:39,820
here I am. I don't really know anything about either of these candidates at all,

397
00:34:39,820 --> 00:34:43,820
but I heard that this person is,

398
00:34:43,820 --> 00:34:47,820
some people really don't like this guy. I'm like, wow, I don't really want to hurt
those people's

399
00:34:47,820 --> 00:34:51,820
feelings. They really don't want this candidate, so they go with the other
candidate.

400
00:34:51,820 --> 00:34:55,820
It doesn't work that way in markets, for example. You can't

401
00:34:55,820 --> 00:34:59,820
tank the price of GE

402
00:34:59,820 --> 00:35:03,820
by saying that Immelt or whoever,

403
00:35:03,820 --> 00:35:07,820
whatever the guy's name, the new CEO, I forget his name,

404
00:35:07,820 --> 00:35:11,820
but you can't say, oh, this guy's Satan or something.

405
00:35:11,820 --> 00:35:15,820
He's putting witchcraft into the light bulbs, blah, blah, blah.

406
00:35:15,820 --> 00:35:19,820
No one will care. They'll just laugh at you. It's totally indifferent.

407
00:35:19,820 --> 00:35:23,820
You can't do it in the physics department either of a university.

408
00:35:23,820 --> 00:35:27,820
There are other offices where you can't.

409
00:35:27,820 --> 00:35:31,820
It depends a lot on what kind of movement you're trying to do,

410
00:35:31,820 --> 00:35:35,820
but even in stuff like the right nonprofit, it just won't go anywhere.

411
00:35:35,820 --> 00:35:39,820
If you go to Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, you say that malaria nets

412
00:35:39,820 --> 00:35:43,820
are sorcery or something. You're outraged.

413
00:35:43,820 --> 00:35:47,820
Why would they prioritize this over that? It's like no one cares because they're all
too busy.

414
00:35:47,820 --> 00:35:51,820
You're not going to get past

415
00:35:51,820 --> 00:35:55,820
his secretary. He's busy.

416
00:35:55,820 --> 00:35:59,820
What is the population we're dealing with in blockchain now?

417
00:35:59,820 --> 00:36:03,820
I don't really worry about these other projects for exactly the same reasons

418
00:36:03,820 --> 00:36:07,820
that I haven't worried about them for years, which is that

419
00:36:07,820 --> 00:36:11,820
they're like a fast fuse. They show up. They get a lot of attention.

420
00:36:11,820 --> 00:36:15,820
Someone says, people show up and they're brand new.

421
00:36:15,820 --> 00:36:19,820
They've just heard about Bitcoin, and they've just heard about EOS.

422
00:36:19,820 --> 00:36:23,820
As far as they're concerned, they're just two members of the same category, and they
have no knowledge

423
00:36:23,820 --> 00:36:27,820
about either of them, really. They're just like, well, EOS looks like

424
00:36:27,820 --> 00:36:31,820
it's doing all these things, and they say, well, we're the next Bitcoin, blah, blah,
blah.

425
00:36:31,820 --> 00:36:35,820
Then EOS, the price is going way up, so they get involved with EOS.

426
00:36:35,820 --> 00:36:39,820
That's fine because they get only the ...

427
00:36:39,820 --> 00:36:43,820
It's like a filter for the most naive people.

428
00:36:43,820 --> 00:36:47,820
There's many people repeating the same scam, so it's a big fan out.

429
00:36:47,820 --> 00:36:51,820
You only get one over N

430
00:36:51,820 --> 00:36:55,820
portion of the most naive people. They just show up.

431
00:36:55,820 --> 00:36:59,820
They all commit to their various weird projects. Then those projects explode,

432
00:36:59,820 --> 00:37:03,820
and those people, since they're faithless to begin with because their convictions

433
00:37:03,820 --> 00:37:07,820
are not built on a real, enduring commitment of any kind,

434
00:37:07,820 --> 00:37:11,820
they will abandon those projects.

435
00:37:11,820 --> 00:37:15,820
We see this all the time. The market cap

436
00:37:15,820 --> 00:37:19,820
of some project will go way up, and then it will just go way down, and then it will
slowly

437
00:37:19,820 --> 00:37:23,820
just fade out forever and die.

438
00:37:23,820 --> 00:37:27,820
That's the exact same reason why I am worried now. This goes to the market cap

439
00:37:27,820 --> 00:37:31,820
Bitcoin dominance discussion

440
00:37:31,820 --> 00:37:35,820
because we haven't just seen ...

441
00:37:35,820 --> 00:37:39,820
It's been over a year since ... The Bitcoin dominance

442
00:37:39,820 --> 00:37:43,820
index used to be more than 95% very reliably.

443
00:37:43,820 --> 00:37:47,820
That is why it was very easy not to take these other projects seriously.

444
00:37:47,820 --> 00:37:51,820
You have something like Ethereum, which is 18% to

445
00:37:51,820 --> 00:37:55,820
Bitcoin's 42%.

446
00:37:55,820 --> 00:37:59,820
It's been that way for months

447
00:37:59,820 --> 00:38:03,820
and months, and this is not just a weird flash in the pan, unfortunately.

448
00:38:03,820 --> 00:38:07,820
Absent any regulation,

449
00:38:07,820 --> 00:38:11,820
Bitcoin is the worst solution. It's necessarily the worst because

450
00:38:11,820 --> 00:38:15,820
it has all these decentralization benefits that nobody needs.

451
00:38:15,820 --> 00:38:19,820
Again, I guess Shinobi is probably going nuts on the channel and people like him.

452
00:38:19,820 --> 00:38:23,820
I'm not saying that that's the case.

453
00:38:23,820 --> 00:38:27,820
If you're making him upset, that's probably a good sign.

454
00:38:27,820 --> 00:38:31,820
I agree. He's hysterical. He always gets hysterical. That's his thing.

455
00:38:31,820 --> 00:38:35,820
He terrorizes the chat.

456
00:38:35,820 --> 00:38:39,820
One of the things that Giacomo did not ...

457
00:38:39,820 --> 00:38:43,820
Let's cycle it back. There is a way

458
00:38:43,820 --> 00:38:47,820
for the Bitcoin

459
00:38:47,820 --> 00:38:51,820
cash side to win.

460
00:38:51,820 --> 00:38:55,820
The main argument ... It's exactly as you just said.

461
00:38:55,820 --> 00:38:59,820
There's this dimension that is not actually relevant, it turns out,

462
00:38:59,820 --> 00:39:03,820
because of something.

463
00:39:03,820 --> 00:39:07,820
In our case, what Giacomo is saying is that a lot of the best scientists

464
00:39:07,820 --> 00:39:11,820
are all on the core side.

465
00:39:11,820 --> 00:39:15,820
All this is open source software. The cash side can just copy all

466
00:39:15,820 --> 00:39:19,820
the software. It so happens that they weren't a huge mistake.

467
00:39:19,820 --> 00:39:23,820
By far, the biggest blunder of Bitcoin cash is their decision

468
00:39:23,820 --> 00:39:27,820
not to do that. Bitcoin cash has substantially altered the codebase

469
00:39:27,820 --> 00:39:31,820
from Bitcoin core to the point that it's very difficult to even

470
00:39:31,820 --> 00:39:35,820
create a patch set or something that is basically Bitcoin core

471
00:39:35,820 --> 00:39:39,820
but that would connect to the Bitcoin cash network. So a huge mistake

472
00:39:39,820 --> 00:39:43,820
of Bitcoin cash. But the point is

473
00:39:43,820 --> 00:39:47,820
it's still, in principle, possible to just take all this stuff.

474
00:39:47,820 --> 00:39:51,820
Bulletproofs, whatever it is. Lightning, all these things.

475
00:39:51,820 --> 00:39:55,820
Tumblebit. You can just take them and just

476
00:39:55,820 --> 00:39:59,820
move them over. They made a huge blunder by making it more

477
00:39:59,820 --> 00:40:03,820
difficult than it would otherwise be, but it's still possible

478
00:40:03,820 --> 00:40:07,820
to just take all this stuff. And then

479
00:40:07,820 --> 00:40:11,820
there's a second dimension of the monetary property of

480
00:40:11,820 --> 00:40:15,820
recognizability, which is that

481
00:40:15,820 --> 00:40:19,820
how do people feel about this being a reliable

482
00:40:19,820 --> 00:40:23,820
form of money? And in that sense, if you've got people like

483
00:40:23,820 --> 00:40:27,820
Brian Armstrong, Roger Ver, you've got BitPay,

484
00:40:27,820 --> 00:40:31,820
you've got Purse.io, which is basically Amazon,

485
00:40:31,820 --> 00:40:35,820
that's big stuff. And if you have all that

486
00:40:35,820 --> 00:40:39,820
promoting Bitcoin cash only, and you have the tech

487
00:40:39,820 --> 00:40:43,820
being equal, then it's kind of

488
00:40:43,820 --> 00:40:47,820
one-sided in the other direction. The promotion is the only part

489
00:40:47,820 --> 00:40:51,820
that is not an advantage that you can easily

490
00:40:51,820 --> 00:40:55,820
steal. Bitcoin Core might have an R&D advantage, but you can

491
00:40:55,820 --> 00:40:57,820
just steal it.

492
00:40:57,820 --> 00:41:01,820
Yeah, no kidding. One thing that is possible is let's just say

493
00:41:01,820 --> 00:41:05,820
cash were to continue to grow and eclipse the market cap of

494
00:41:05,820 --> 00:41:09,820
Bitcoin Core. I don't see any reason to believe that the Bitcoin Core developers
then

495
00:41:09,820 --> 00:41:13,820
wouldn't be able to be either bought by

496
00:41:13,820 --> 00:41:17,820
them, by Bitcoin Cash, for continued development.

497
00:41:17,820 --> 00:41:21,820
Exactly, they hire someone else to build a little bridge.

498
00:41:21,820 --> 00:41:25,820
And the Bitcoin Core devs will tell you that they'd rather have seen so many

499
00:41:25,820 --> 00:41:29,820
things done different. They could just create a competitor to Bitcoin at that point,
and

500
00:41:29,820 --> 00:41:33,820
maybe even do it in a way that they're getting paid by Bitcoin Cash simultaneously

501
00:41:33,820 --> 00:41:37,820
while developing their own coin. I don't think anybody in the cash department would
care about that.

502
00:41:37,820 --> 00:41:41,820
We sort of even see that already happening to a tiny extent.

503
00:41:41,820 --> 00:41:45,820
Bin with Mimblewimble, exactly. And we see that where

504
00:41:45,820 --> 00:41:49,820
people prefer doing it. There's a disagreement on tech

505
00:41:49,820 --> 00:41:53,820
and the sidechain elephant and other

506
00:41:53,820 --> 00:41:57,820
elephant in the room we haven't talked about yet, but people don't want to go for
that.

507
00:41:57,820 --> 00:42:01,820
They don't want Mimblewimble as a sidechain,

508
00:42:01,820 --> 00:42:05,820
which is shocking, right? Can you believe? Because Mimblewimble is deep,

509
00:42:05,820 --> 00:42:09,820
deep in Republican territory, deep in

510
00:42:09,820 --> 00:42:13,820
blockstream chain code, conservative block size territory.

511
00:42:13,820 --> 00:42:17,820
It's deep. It's practically coming from the RNC chairman himself.

512
00:42:17,820 --> 00:42:21,820
Right, right.

513
00:42:21,820 --> 00:42:25,820
RS Protege.

514
00:42:25,820 --> 00:42:29,820
Still, that's going to splinter off and be an altcoin.

515
00:42:29,820 --> 00:42:33,820
But you also see it in like Joseph Poon gets insulted on the Bitcoin

516
00:42:33,820 --> 00:42:37,820
debt mailing list and then leaves for Ethereum to do Plasma, which is sort of
Ethereum

517
00:42:37,820 --> 00:42:41,820
but not really, but question mark, question mark, whatever, like it doesn't matter.

518
00:42:41,820 --> 00:42:45,820
You do have these people who splinter off, like Monero

519
00:42:45,820 --> 00:42:49,820
can't join. Again, I keep saying the sidechain

520
00:42:49,820 --> 00:42:53,820
thing and I don't want to keep bringing it back to that, but it's like, you know,
you've got these other projects.

521
00:42:53,820 --> 00:42:57,820
What are you going to do with like Monero, Namecoin, Siacoin?

522
00:42:57,820 --> 00:43:01,820
What are you going to do with that? They can't join. And even Litecoin,

523
00:43:01,820 --> 00:43:05,820
there's like this kind of uneasy friendship

524
00:43:05,820 --> 00:43:09,820
with them. It's very interesting. This friendship is, I think, politically

525
00:43:09,820 --> 00:43:13,820
motivated, of course, by now that you've got cash, you've got to establish

526
00:43:13,820 --> 00:43:17,820
a bigger group of friendly coins

527
00:43:17,820 --> 00:43:21,820
that includes the magical crypto friends that got

528
00:43:21,820 --> 00:43:25,820
Litecoin on there. But in contrast to Bitcoin Cash, which of course

529
00:43:25,820 --> 00:43:29,820
is not represented, you know what I'm saying? It's like you want to give

530
00:43:29,820 --> 00:43:33,820
this impression that Bitcoin Cash is extra bad,

531
00:43:33,820 --> 00:43:37,820
et cetera, et cetera.

532
00:43:37,820 --> 00:43:41,820
But this is the point that I'm trying to make is that I think

533
00:43:41,820 --> 00:43:45,820
that's the point is that Litecoin is what, I don't remember exactly,

534
00:43:45,820 --> 00:43:49,820
but I think it's like 4%. Bitcoin Cash is like 6%.

535
00:43:49,820 --> 00:43:53,820
Litecoin is very, very old. Monero is old.

536
00:43:53,820 --> 00:43:57,820
And it's only 1%. People bring up these other things.

537
00:43:57,820 --> 00:44:01,820
I think the dominance index and the market cap,

538
00:44:01,820 --> 00:44:05,820
those are very valid metrics, in my opinion. And people say, well, they can be

539
00:44:05,820 --> 00:44:09,820
manipulated easily. But if they are, they get unmanipulated very quickly.

540
00:44:09,820 --> 00:44:13,820
In the short term, if something

541
00:44:13,820 --> 00:44:17,820
changes in the short term, then that's fine. Then it'll be gone soon.

542
00:44:17,820 --> 00:44:21,820
But these things are not gone soon. And this is an objective metric. When you see
people who are so

543
00:44:21,820 --> 00:44:25,820
biased, they don't even realize

544
00:44:25,820 --> 00:44:29,820
what they're doing.

545
00:44:29,820 --> 00:44:33,820
I've told new people that they probably want to invest in an index at this point.

546
00:44:33,820 --> 00:44:37,820
And I don't know what to say about that, but it's

547
00:44:37,820 --> 00:44:41,820
becoming increasingly obvious that that's a wise investment strategy.

548
00:44:41,820 --> 00:44:45,820
It depends, of course, on many different things.

549
00:44:45,820 --> 00:44:49,820
It's unfortunate that it can't easily be summarized, I think. But what you

550
00:44:49,820 --> 00:44:53,820
have is a situation where probably

551
00:44:53,820 --> 00:44:57,820
a lot of different things they would do, they would be acceptable.

552
00:44:57,820 --> 00:45:01,820
Because as far as

553
00:45:01,820 --> 00:45:05,820
financial sovereignty, there really isn't that

554
00:45:05,820 --> 00:45:09,820
big of a difference between Litecoin and Bitcoin.

555
00:45:09,820 --> 00:45:13,820
There are more frequent blocks, so there's more overhead.

556
00:45:13,820 --> 00:45:17,820
It's harder to run a node. There's more headers

557
00:45:17,820 --> 00:45:21,820
and these other things. But Bitcoin launched in

558
00:45:21,820 --> 00:45:25,820
2009, January, and Litecoin launched in 2011, I think.

559
00:45:25,820 --> 00:45:29,820
Computers have gotten better

560
00:45:29,820 --> 00:45:33,820
since then. Litecoin steals a lot of this stuff.

561
00:45:33,820 --> 00:45:37,820
A lot of the technology has lightning.

562
00:45:37,820 --> 00:45:41,820
The only

563
00:45:41,820 --> 00:45:45,820
people who are harmed

564
00:45:45,820 --> 00:45:49,820
are the current investors in Bitcoin.

565
00:45:49,820 --> 00:45:53,820
But technologically speaking,

566
00:45:53,820 --> 00:45:57,820
a lot of this stuff is just as efficient for payments as anything else.

567
00:45:57,820 --> 00:46:01,820
What's the marginal economic cost of a payment in Bitcoin

568
00:46:01,820 --> 00:46:05,820
versus one in Litecoin or Bitcoin Cash or these other things?

569
00:46:05,820 --> 00:46:09,820
They're very similar.

570
00:46:09,820 --> 00:46:13,820
The point that I'm at now is there's only two

571
00:46:13,820 --> 00:46:17,820
factors in these things that I can tell matter, liquidity and fungibility.

572
00:46:17,820 --> 00:46:21,820
Bitcoin has been fungible enough.

573
00:46:21,820 --> 00:46:25,820
It may be that somebody wants or doesn't want that feature, TBD,

574
00:46:25,820 --> 00:46:29,820
but the other side of it is liquidity. There's no reason why Litecoin can't have the
liquidity that Bitcoin has

575
00:46:29,820 --> 00:46:33,820
if the community grows bigger.

576
00:46:33,820 --> 00:46:37,820
These are all very transient.

577
00:46:37,820 --> 00:46:41,820
What I think the Republicans don't appreciate is that

578
00:46:41,820 --> 00:46:45,820
it's plausible.

579
00:46:45,820 --> 00:46:49,820
Errors have been made on all sides.

580
00:46:49,820 --> 00:46:53,820
Why is the thinking so bad so often?

581
00:46:53,820 --> 00:46:57,820
It's plausible. For Giacomo to say there's no

582
00:46:57,820 --> 00:47:01,820
equivalence is mistaken because

583
00:47:01,820 --> 00:47:05,820
you have these people who want revenge. You should never underestimate that,

584
00:47:05,820 --> 00:47:09,820
especially when they're rich.

585
00:47:09,820 --> 00:47:13,820
If they're rich and they're just smart enough, you've got your Roger Ver, you've got
your Brian Armstrong,

586
00:47:13,820 --> 00:47:17,820
you've got all these merchant acceptance people.

587
00:47:17,820 --> 00:47:21,820
I just don't know.

588
00:47:21,820 --> 00:47:25,820
What he's trying to say is that it's worth zero.

589
00:47:25,820 --> 00:47:29,820
I don't think it is worth zero at all.

590
00:47:29,820 --> 00:47:33,820
It's fine if people want to

591
00:47:33,820 --> 00:47:37,820
support one side over the other.

592
00:47:37,820 --> 00:47:41,820
That's great. But at a certain point, it does become

593
00:47:41,820 --> 00:47:45,820
a crime against truth when you're just saying that

594
00:47:45,820 --> 00:47:49,820
there is only one side.

595
00:47:49,820 --> 00:47:53,820
It is just as bad if you go to the Bitcoin Cash side.

596
00:47:53,820 --> 00:47:57,820
They will say that we are the only real side.

597
00:47:57,820 --> 00:48:01,820
That side is just misled by Famos and is the illegitimate side.

598
00:48:01,820 --> 00:48:05,820
It's only a matter of time before everyone agrees with us.

599
00:48:05,820 --> 00:48:09,820
It's a crime against truth.

600
00:48:09,820 --> 00:48:13,820
Did we decide that that is appropriate? When is motivated ignorance a virtue?

601
00:48:13,820 --> 00:48:17,820
Motivated ignorance is effective.

602
00:48:17,820 --> 00:48:21,820
But the question of whether or not it's a virtue, it depends.

603
00:48:21,820 --> 00:48:25,820
If you want to be effective, then it's a virtue.

604
00:48:25,820 --> 00:48:29,820
I think that you and me, we're on a little show here.

605
00:48:29,820 --> 00:48:33,820
We should at least pretend to care about informing the viewers.

606
00:48:33,820 --> 00:48:37,820
At a certain point, it will fall below a threshold

607
00:48:37,820 --> 00:48:41,820
where if we can't even pretend to care about

608
00:48:41,820 --> 00:48:45,820
speaking honestly to the viewers, if we can't even pretend

609
00:48:45,820 --> 00:48:49,820
to care about that, then no one will listen to the show.

610
00:48:49,820 --> 00:48:53,820
We are held in check

611
00:48:53,820 --> 00:48:57,820
a little bit by just basic

612
00:48:57,820 --> 00:49:01,820
requirements to move the dialogue along.

613
00:49:01,820 --> 00:49:05,820
What if you called on someone

614
00:49:05,820 --> 00:49:09,820
running for office in Florida and they were a Republican

615
00:49:09,820 --> 00:49:13,820
and they said, the Republican party is the only real party.

616
00:49:13,820 --> 00:49:17,820
There are no other parties in Florida.

617
00:49:17,820 --> 00:49:21,820
I don't even know why anyone would even think about not voting for Republicans.

618
00:49:21,820 --> 00:49:25,820
That would just be too much. There would be no way that it would be laughable.

619
00:49:25,820 --> 00:49:29,820
We are kind of reaching that point. I was shocked.

620
00:49:29,820 --> 00:49:33,820
I was so disappointed, Chris, in you. I was shocked that you even asked

621
00:49:33,820 --> 00:49:37,820
if there were political parties. There have been political parties in Bitcoin

622
00:49:37,820 --> 00:49:41,820
since before you did Bitcoin Uncensored with Joneseth.

623
00:49:41,820 --> 00:49:45,820
They have been around for a very long time.

624
00:49:45,820 --> 00:49:49,820
It's super obvious.

625
00:49:49,820 --> 00:49:53,820
We kind of have a civil war, really, where

626
00:49:53,820 --> 00:49:57,820
one of the parties formed their own country.

627
00:49:57,820 --> 00:50:01,820
It's a little late for that.

628
00:50:02,051 --> 00:50:20,051
I agree. A lot of times I feign ignorance. I don't know if I did on that question or
not, but I feign ignorance if only so that I can have somebody else walk through
explaining to me what I already know they're going to tell me so that I don't have
to deal with the burden of personal issues encumbering the discussion.

629
00:50:20,051 --> 00:50:25,051
That was too far for me. I was like, wow, how can anyone not know?

630
00:50:26,051 --> 00:50:39,051
That's the thing, too. I'm having this hard time now because I want to throw a dog
whistle in so that people know me, that are my friends who aren't the hoi polloi.
They know when I'm merely advancing an agenda issue.

631
00:50:39,051 --> 00:50:41,051
That's hard to do.

632
00:51:09,051 --> 00:51:24,051
They know can arrows, impossibility, paradox. So they know that if they split, they
might be in trouble. Metcalfe's law, etc., etc. So everyone knows that they've got
to unite to defeat this foe.

633
00:51:25,051 --> 00:51:44,051
So it's obvious if you have contact, but we have these bubbles, of course, in social
media. It's very easy to accidentally get a little more comfortable with your side
and then you don't want to listen to the other side. They sound shrill and annoying
to you. Your brain doesn't process it quite as easily.

634
00:51:44,051 --> 00:51:53,051
It sounds like you're at the point, though, where you seem to recognize or believe
that willful ignorance of the existence of parties is no longer helpful.

635
00:51:53,051 --> 00:52:13,051
I think at a certain point it's—so it depends if the willful ignorance is—see, as I
said, it's effective, but I think you can always go too far where you just say—you
just try to be willfully ignorant of facts that are just obvious, like willful
ignorance of gravity or something.

636
00:52:13,051 --> 00:52:31,051
These things would be helpful. They impair—they make the group less efficient, but
they, in some ways, in terms of what goal the group is trying to achieve, but it
makes each individual in there a good conformist.

637
00:52:31,051 --> 00:52:48,051
And so it helps your standing within the group. It does harm the long-run
effectiveness of the group. So it increases the short-run effectiveness of the
group. It increases your social rank inside the group, but in the long run it's not
helpful.

638
00:52:48,051 --> 00:53:05,051
And depending on what you choose to be ignorant of is where that long run is. So if
you're willfully ignorant of the wrong thing, then the long run will be tomorrow, or
if you're willfully ignorant of gravity, then you'll be ignorant of gravity in the
next five or ten seconds.

639
00:53:05,051 --> 00:53:19,051
And you have a very hard time—you can't be—you don't want to open yourself up to
ridicule. So it's a little bit like shuffleboard, where you want to be as ignorant
as you possibly can without going over the line.

640
00:53:19,051 --> 00:53:39,051
If you go over the line, then everyone will just laugh at you, and then you'll be
ruined. That'll be the ruination of it all. So you can't—it's kind of a risk. But
yeah, of course, there's no denying that, how effective it is to get everyone to
believe that the soldiers who do well will go to heaven, and so then—

641
00:53:39,051 --> 00:54:07,051
So at what point, then—so are we at the point at which denial of parties is, in
fact, a—

642
00:54:07,051 --> 00:54:10,051
That's it. It's no longer time to do that in my mind, it seems.

643
00:54:38,051 --> 00:54:45,051
Unless Bitcoin Cash has kind of screwed it up, as I said, by the substantial changes
to the code base, because they think that they—

644
00:54:46,051 --> 00:55:08,051
Huge mistake is that Bitcoin Cash has decided to compete on a couple different
things at once. Huge mistake. Giant blunder on their part. Possibly fatal. We don't
know if we can fix the blunder or not. But they want to compete on not only which is
the optimal block size parameter, which is one dimension.

645
00:55:09,051 --> 00:55:10,051
Very small dimension at this point.

646
00:55:10,051 --> 00:55:26,051
Yeah, it might not even—who even cares about something like that these days? And
there are other things to say about that, like with the extension blocks that
already exist in Bitcoin Core that we don't know about, and these other things like
that.

647
00:55:27,051 --> 00:55:30,051
Well, let me ask you this. Let me ask you this.

648
00:55:31,051 --> 00:55:48,051
The other dimensions are, of course, whether or not it will matter to have people
uniquely promoting the brand that compete on a different brand, like can Roger Ver
get Bitcoin Cash accepted in more places than Bitcoin Core, these other things.

649
00:55:48,051 --> 00:55:59,051
And then third, they just throw in for fun. They wanted to just throw in a
completely different development team, Varian-wise, because they have a huge
disadvantage.

650
00:56:00,051 --> 00:56:17,051
But worse is that they don't want—you shouldn't want the competitive space to be
that crazy. You only wanted to just compete on one or two things, and you'd want to
make the other things the same, so that there's no criteria for competition there.

651
00:56:17,051 --> 00:56:34,051
But even all those things are relatively minor, things that can either be fixed or
that could change rapidly, and so it is, in my opinion, it is very unwise to just
say it's a foregone conclusion.

652
00:56:34,051 --> 00:56:58,051
Even Bitcoin Cash, I think one thing that people don't really know a lot about is
that, I think, it's been a while since I checked, it's been a couple of weeks since
I checked, but the balances, something like 84% of the UTXOs are still the same, and
about 60% of the coins are the same, because there's a lot of tiny UTXOs that don't
move.

653
00:56:58,051 --> 00:57:07,051
But most people have not even picked a side, and that is, in fact, a lower bound
because of the mandatory replay protection.

654
00:57:07,051 --> 00:57:29,051
Someone who sells 10% of their coins on Bitcoin Core and then sells later 10% of
their Bitcoin Cash, they'll still be perfectly synchronized, but it'll look a little
bit like—if they sell them to the same person, you'll still have a complete
synchronization, but it'll look like one-tenth of the person's coins got
desynchronized.

655
00:57:30,051 --> 00:57:32,051
So the true percentages may be much higher than that.

656
00:57:32,051 --> 00:57:46,051
Someone who sells Bitcoin Cash and then rebuys it, they sell it on August 1st,
thinking that they have no idea what this is, they're amazed that anyone pays for
it, but then later on in December, they decide they want to rebuy it.

657
00:57:47,051 --> 00:57:58,051
It looks like it's split even further, but it's actually just reversed the original
investment allocation or reallocation.

658
00:57:58,051 --> 00:58:10,051
So what I'm trying to say is that it's still very—a lot of people have not taken a
side, possibly as high as 100%, in theory, but obviously with some people we
suspect.

659
00:58:11,051 --> 00:58:16,051
I don't know the extent to which the ownership sets are actually that different.

660
00:58:16,051 --> 00:58:18,051
I don't think anyone knows.

661
00:58:19,051 --> 00:58:21,051
So let me ask you this.

662
00:58:21,051 --> 00:58:24,051
What are your top three threats to Bitcoin in order?

663
00:58:24,051 --> 00:58:31,051
And then from there, do we design a boogeyman for the hoi polloi to believe in to
combat them first?

664
00:58:31,051 --> 00:58:39,051
That's a wonderful question because I think that actually the framing of the
question is misleading.

665
00:58:40,051 --> 00:58:42,051
Do you believe that?

666
00:58:42,051 --> 00:58:54,051
So I'm going to just—the whole question I reject, actually, because I think that
really what we're really learning is that the design, whether or not Satoshi
realized this or not, there is no need.

667
00:58:54,051 --> 00:59:00,051
Satoshi actually did—I don't know if Satoshi knew this or not, but he did think of
everything.

668
00:59:00,051 --> 00:59:05,051
It's perfectly fine the way it is and it doesn't need defense from people at all.

669
00:59:05,051 --> 00:59:17,051
It's all just pretentious nonsense so that people can feel good about themselves and
get VC funding to justify having no real responsibilities.

670
00:59:17,051 --> 00:59:23,051
You're the defender of Bitcoin, but the job does itself because Bitcoin is so
secure.

671
00:59:23,051 --> 00:59:28,051
If Bitcoin fails in all these ways, it doesn't matter.

672
00:59:28,051 --> 00:59:33,051
It can recover even if people put in very low effort.

673
00:59:33,051 --> 00:59:37,051
Just imagine whatever attack there is.

674
00:59:37,051 --> 00:59:38,051
What do we need to do?

675
00:59:38,051 --> 00:59:44,051
If there's a big reorganization for miners, you can change the proof-of-work
algorithm.

676
00:59:44,051 --> 00:59:53,051
And then even if it doesn't matter exactly which side, you can try to say, I don't
want to—I wish I had some people.

677
00:59:53,051 --> 01:00:02,051
These are fair points, but I feel like what you may be expressing is that we haven't
identified what failure—I agree that Bitcoin won't fail.

678
01:00:02,051 --> 01:00:11,051
So then perhaps the question should be rephrased as what are the top three
impediments to achieving higher liquidity in Bitcoin?

679
01:00:11,051 --> 01:00:25,051
Right, so then the question is—right, I think that's right—is that the way Satoshi's
blockchain technology works is such that over time, the errors are—it is
antifragile.

680
01:00:25,051 --> 01:00:31,051
So whatever weird, bad things happen to it, we'll know what those things are.

681
01:00:31,051 --> 01:00:42,051
And we have the ledger's history, so we'll be able to recover to a tremendous
degree, even if all the people with—even you and I and all the people with lots of
knowledge about how Bitcoin works.

682
01:00:42,051 --> 01:00:51,051
We all go to the same conference and die, and there's a 51% attack reorganizing 40
blocks, and the government bans Bitcoin.

683
01:00:52,051 --> 01:00:58,051
Other smart people, they'll be able to pick up the pieces, even without us.

684
01:00:58,051 --> 01:01:06,051
And that's the magic of having—really, you could call it an institution, which is
just that the blockchain is kind of like an institution.

685
01:01:06,051 --> 01:01:12,051
It just says, here's something that we have, and if there are problems, then they
will be fixed.

686
01:01:12,051 --> 01:01:15,051
The question is how fast or slow they'll be fixed.

687
01:01:15,051 --> 01:01:27,051
Yes, so now you rephrased the question, which is a little bit more like how can we
make sure that if you own BTC, you've got the best chance of doing well.

688
01:01:27,051 --> 01:01:30,051
Is that, I think, what you're sort of referring to?

689
01:01:30,051 --> 01:01:35,051
Yeah, and I think—I can't necessarily speak for Giacomo, but I think—and Giacomo,
please weigh in on the comments.

690
01:01:35,051 --> 01:01:38,051
He would have said his top concern was censorship from the government.

691
01:01:38,051 --> 01:01:45,051
His second concern would be Bitcoin cash, and his third concern would be minor
centralization, which may be the same as number two.

692
01:01:45,051 --> 01:01:48,051
So I—so what would you say?

693
01:01:48,051 --> 01:01:50,051
The channel wants to know.

694
01:01:50,051 --> 01:02:01,051
This is not really the appropriate question, because Giacomo is the CEO of this
business that makes money by renting out, you know,

695
01:02:02,051 --> 01:02:05,051
access to Bitcoin experts.

696
01:02:05,051 --> 01:02:10,051
So, of course, he would need—you know, I hate to impugn anyone's motives, especially
if they're not here,

697
01:02:10,051 --> 01:02:15,051
but, you know, this idea that you need to constantly have the right people.

698
01:02:15,051 --> 01:02:18,051
And thank God we have Gregory Maxwell and Peter Todd protecting us.

699
01:02:18,051 --> 01:02:24,051
You know, what would we do without them on the wall, guarding us at night, you know,
as we sleep?

700
01:02:24,051 --> 01:02:26,051
We would be lost without them.

701
01:02:26,051 --> 01:02:28,051
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know?

702
01:02:28,051 --> 01:02:32,051
And what would we do without Giacomo, you know, building a blockchain lab in Italy,
you know?

703
01:02:32,051 --> 01:02:33,051
Thank God.

704
01:02:33,051 --> 01:02:36,051
Thank God we've got all this stuff, right?

705
01:02:36,051 --> 01:02:40,051
That we have all these great people defending us against these constant threats who
are marauding.

706
01:02:40,051 --> 01:02:46,051
It's just—they're the only thing standing between us and total destruction and
failure of our mission, you know?

707
01:02:46,051 --> 01:02:47,051
Blah, blah, blah.

708
01:02:47,051 --> 01:02:50,051
That's just a bunch of self-serving, you know, kind of nonsense, I think.

709
01:02:50,051 --> 01:02:52,051
So we can go through those if you want, though.

710
01:02:52,051 --> 01:02:54,051
I think they're interesting.

711
01:02:54,051 --> 01:03:00,051
Can we—can the channel get your top three concerns that are impacting Bitcoin
liquidity?

712
01:03:00,051 --> 01:03:01,051
Okay.

713
01:03:01,051 --> 01:03:03,051
See, we keep—we're rephrasing it again.

714
01:03:03,051 --> 01:03:11,051
So it's like, by Bitcoin liquidity, you mean we want everyone out there to be doing
commerce in Bitcoin?

715
01:03:11,051 --> 01:03:13,051
Or do we want a lot of investing in Bitcoin?

716
01:03:13,051 --> 01:03:15,051
Do we want the market capitalization of Bitcoin to go up?

717
01:03:15,051 --> 01:03:17,051
Like, what exactly do you mean?

718
01:03:17,051 --> 01:03:19,051
Because I think they're slightly different.

719
01:03:19,051 --> 01:03:20,051
Good questions.

720
01:03:20,051 --> 01:03:26,051
I'm going to say liquidity as expressed probably in investing terms reluctantly at
the moment.

721
01:03:26,051 --> 01:03:30,051
Yeah, I agree that that's the right answer, and it's right to be reluctant about the
answer.

722
01:03:30,051 --> 01:03:35,051
But that should—by the EMH, that should fold into everything else, right?

723
01:03:35,051 --> 01:03:37,051
Well, yeah, that's the best I can give you.

724
01:03:37,051 --> 01:03:38,051
I agree, yeah.

725
01:03:38,051 --> 01:03:41,051
Well, I mean, I think—it's clear from my actions.

726
01:03:41,051 --> 01:03:43,051
You don't need to ask for my words.

727
01:03:43,051 --> 01:03:46,051
I dropped my own project to work on sidechains.

728
01:03:46,051 --> 01:03:51,051
With sidechains, we should be able to just have all these disagreements.

729
01:03:51,051 --> 01:03:53,051
You know, community grows to a certain size.

730
01:03:53,051 --> 01:03:55,051
It's inevitable that there are disagreements.

731
01:03:55,051 --> 01:03:58,051
And we see, you know, people want to try their weird experiments.

732
01:04:00,051 --> 01:04:04,051
So that's great, and they can do that on sidechains while still using the same 21
million Bitcoin.

733
01:04:04,051 --> 01:04:07,051
So I think that sidechains are the way to go.

734
01:04:07,051 --> 01:04:09,051
The code is finished.

735
01:04:09,051 --> 01:04:15,051
So what is impacting—we don't have to answer it, but what is impacting sidechains
might be your number one consideration?

736
01:04:15,051 --> 01:04:23,051
Right, well, I think we—the scalability debate has never been about scalability.

737
01:04:23,051 --> 01:04:28,051
It's always been about decentralization at least, which is the cost of running a
full node.

738
01:04:28,051 --> 01:04:29,051
But there has always been—

739
01:04:29,051 --> 01:04:30,051
I think it's been about leadership.

740
01:04:30,051 --> 01:04:40,051
Yes, there has always been a much darker subtext, which is that it's about who is in
control of which—who changes what.

741
01:04:41,051 --> 01:04:45,051
Giacomo is representing a conservative position where all changes were bad.

742
01:04:45,051 --> 01:04:52,051
If you watch the interview carefully, you see the idea of a change that is an
improvement to Bitcoin is not—

743
01:04:52,051 --> 01:04:58,051
you know, he just dismisses that as being almost unthinkable, which is kind of
weird.

744
01:04:58,051 --> 01:05:03,051
But I don't know how he feels about soft forks and SegWit and these other things.

745
01:05:03,051 --> 01:05:05,051
I thought that was sort of strange.

746
01:05:05,051 --> 01:05:12,051
But the point is that we have—let's see, what were we talking about?

747
01:05:12,051 --> 01:05:13,051
Sidechains?

748
01:05:13,051 --> 01:05:14,051
I lost my train of thought there.

749
01:05:14,051 --> 01:05:17,051
Well, no, the top three concerns would be great.

750
01:05:17,051 --> 01:05:18,051
Yeah.

751
01:05:18,051 --> 01:05:20,051
So sidechains being number one—

752
01:05:20,051 --> 01:05:22,051
Oh, no, I was talking about why.

753
01:05:22,051 --> 01:05:23,051
No, it's about control.

754
01:05:23,051 --> 01:05:26,051
Control is what the debate is really about.

755
01:05:26,051 --> 01:05:30,051
And sidechains take control away from a lot of the people who have it now.

756
01:05:31,051 --> 01:05:34,051
It takes some control away from miners, I think, if you ask me,

757
01:05:34,051 --> 01:05:39,051
but it takes a lot of control away from, you know, like the Bitcoin dev mailing list

758
01:05:39,051 --> 01:05:44,051
and Luke Jr. who does the BIP administration

759
01:05:44,051 --> 01:05:49,051
and all these people who are gatekeepers for what goes in or out of the Bitcoin code
base

760
01:05:49,051 --> 01:05:56,051
because right now they're required—permission from them is required to change
anything in Bitcoin Core,

761
01:05:56,051 --> 01:05:58,051
as debatably it should be.

762
01:05:58,051 --> 01:06:02,051
But I think there's many conflicts of interest.

763
01:06:02,051 --> 01:06:08,051
You know, even the idea of a Bitcoin expert loses a lot of its meaning when anyone
can try their dumb idea.

764
01:06:08,051 --> 01:06:13,051
When you have to go to the Bitcoin expert for bureaucratic approval

765
01:06:13,051 --> 01:06:18,051
and some weird process to get your idea into Bitcoin,

766
01:06:18,051 --> 01:06:24,051
then the experts have a monopoly on whether or not an idea can be tried.

767
01:06:24,051 --> 01:06:30,051
But if there is no monopoly, then they do not get as much rent, so to speak,

768
01:06:30,051 --> 01:06:35,051
and there's not, you know, so much exotic conferences, you know,

769
01:06:35,051 --> 01:06:37,051
and luxury hotels and all these other things.

770
01:06:37,051 --> 01:06:39,051
So that's kind of one thing.

771
01:06:39,051 --> 01:06:45,051
I think maybe awareness of conflicts of interest for sidechains would be one.

772
01:06:45,051 --> 01:06:49,051
You know, just kind of generally, I want to fold into number one concern.

773
01:06:49,051 --> 01:06:53,051
It's just kind of like overconfidence and just like fiddling while Rome burns.

774
01:06:53,051 --> 01:07:00,051
It's weird because this is a long number one, and they're not going to be like
little bullet points, I'm afraid.

775
01:07:00,051 --> 01:07:08,051
But you realize that you have to, like your job as a leader is in fact to create 140
character understandings for the whole company.

776
01:07:08,051 --> 01:07:12,051
So I think the number one will be then, it won't be to shorten it,

777
01:07:12,051 --> 01:07:17,051
it will be just overconfidence slash, you know, neglect of network effects.

778
01:07:17,051 --> 01:07:26,051
So if we put a dash in that, it's just that people don't, they don't appreciate what
you've been saying at the Hoyt-Polloy.

779
01:07:26,051 --> 01:07:31,051
They don't appreciate that, you know, we have the QWERTY keyboard.

780
01:07:31,051 --> 01:07:33,051
QWERTY keyboard is like a stupid keyboard layout.

781
01:07:33,051 --> 01:07:37,051
But, you know, even if you use Dvorak, people are going to say, oh, I use Dvorak,
whatever.

782
01:07:37,051 --> 01:07:39,051
You type Dvorak on a QWERTY keyboard.

783
01:07:39,051 --> 01:07:41,051
Like, don't mess with me.

784
01:07:41,051 --> 01:07:46,051
Like when you go to the store and buy a QWERTY keyboard, it's got QWERTY on it.

785
01:07:46,051 --> 01:07:48,051
And why is that?

786
01:07:48,051 --> 01:07:50,051
You know, it's a stupid keyboard.

787
01:07:50,051 --> 01:07:51,051
English is ridiculous.

788
01:07:51,051 --> 01:07:53,051
You and I had this conversation before.

789
01:07:53,051 --> 01:07:56,051
We got English versus French, which was supposed to be the language of diplomats.

790
01:07:56,051 --> 01:08:01,051
Asim Taleb took that from our conversation and put it in his book.

791
01:08:01,051 --> 01:08:03,051
I didn't get it from his book, his new book.

792
01:08:03,051 --> 01:08:06,051
I think he got that from us.

793
01:08:06,051 --> 01:08:08,051
It was an idea whose time had come.

794
01:08:08,051 --> 01:08:09,051
There's a lot of these going around.

795
01:08:09,051 --> 01:08:13,051
But yeah, we have this stuff, gets network effects.

796
01:08:13,051 --> 01:08:14,051
We have Facebook.

797
01:08:14,051 --> 01:08:20,051
Now people are realizing that Facebook's evil and they've just realized it now.

798
01:08:20,051 --> 01:08:25,051
But now, how many people are going to switch off their Facebook tomorrow or this
evening?

799
01:08:25,051 --> 01:08:29,051
Sad, you know, people just ignore all this stuff.

800
01:08:29,051 --> 01:08:32,051
You know, English is the international language.

801
01:08:32,051 --> 01:08:35,051
It's not the easiest language to learn.

802
01:08:35,051 --> 01:08:38,051
That was something that was designed to be easy to learn called Esperanto.

803
01:08:38,051 --> 01:08:42,051
But no one speaks Esperanto because that's not how language works, you know.

804
01:08:43,051 --> 01:08:52,051
So we don't need – we need people to understand the importance of network effects

805
01:08:52,051 --> 01:08:59,051
and that someone like – you know, I think Giacomo was correct to be worried about
the –

806
01:08:59,051 --> 01:09:02,051
he called them the – what did he call it?

807
01:09:02,051 --> 01:09:07,051
The CEO mafia or something like the U.S. Silicon Valley.

808
01:09:08,051 --> 01:09:12,051
You know, he's right to be worried about these people.

809
01:09:12,051 --> 01:09:14,051
Brian Armstrong, BitPay, et cetera.

810
01:09:14,051 --> 01:09:16,051
I hate to keep – I feel bad just calling these people out.

811
01:09:16,051 --> 01:09:22,051
I mean I have solutions to a lot of those problems, but they all require
organization in my mind.

812
01:09:22,051 --> 01:09:26,051
Like I would love nothing more than to work on Bitcoin's defenses.

813
01:09:26,051 --> 01:09:33,051
And unfortunately, there are people who don't seem to want to acknowledge that that
problem exists.

814
01:09:33,051 --> 01:09:38,051
Yeah, but it's like what would they need to – my challenge to them would be

815
01:09:38,051 --> 01:09:40,051
what would convince you that there is a problem, you know?

816
01:09:40,051 --> 01:09:46,051
Like the market cap – the market – the Bitcoin dominance index being below 50%

817
01:09:46,051 --> 01:09:51,051
for like an entire year or like three years or like what is it going to be?

818
01:09:51,051 --> 01:09:56,051
Because it's been a long time since it was like above 80 or so.

819
01:09:56,051 --> 01:10:01,051
Well, there's this decentralization fear, the culture that I understand

820
01:10:01,051 --> 01:10:06,051
wherein people need the illusion of decentralization more so than they need anything
else

821
01:10:06,051 --> 01:10:12,051
in order for these products to comport with the virtue that is their selling point.

822
01:10:12,051 --> 01:10:16,051
Like that seems to be the way things have shaken out.

823
01:10:16,051 --> 01:10:19,051
And for me, I think it's great for the hoi polloi to believe that.

824
01:10:19,051 --> 01:10:23,051
But I know that anybody who's been around for five years or so

825
01:10:23,051 --> 01:10:29,051
understands that decentralization isn't as simple as like a projection.

826
01:10:29,051 --> 01:10:34,051
And there's a degree of maintenance that is needed to either ensure that projection
exists –

827
01:10:34,051 --> 01:10:38,051
Well, all things need to be – all virtuous things need to be maintained.

828
01:10:38,051 --> 01:10:42,051
Yeah. Yes, it's true. Did you get that from somewhere?

829
01:10:42,051 --> 01:10:43,051
That sounds like it's actually true.

830
01:10:43,051 --> 01:10:46,051
Maybe. I probably got it from somewhere. I can't exactly remember.

831
01:10:46,051 --> 01:10:50,051
But there is – I could send you some links. There's about –

832
01:10:50,051 --> 01:10:52,051
No, that's okay. You don't have to.

833
01:10:52,051 --> 01:10:56,051
Okay, so my first thing was overconfidence, neglect of the network effect.

834
01:10:56,051 --> 01:10:59,051
I think really all of my concerns are the same concerns.

835
01:10:59,051 --> 01:11:04,051
I would have them about Bitcoin or I would have them about the U.S. Congress

836
01:11:04,051 --> 01:11:06,051
or I would have them about Facebook or I would have –

837
01:11:06,051 --> 01:11:10,051
and I think you really want to embrace the principles of science.

838
01:11:10,051 --> 01:11:13,051
And I want to define what science is because people don't know what it is.

839
01:11:13,051 --> 01:11:16,051
Are you sure that's what you want?

840
01:11:16,051 --> 01:11:19,051
I'm going to tell you exactly specifically what I want.

841
01:11:20,051 --> 01:11:26,051
Science, in my opinion, is a process for deleting errors.

842
01:11:26,051 --> 01:11:28,051
So that is what it is.

843
01:11:28,051 --> 01:11:34,051
Our minds are trying to build a model of reality, a map of reality.

844
01:11:34,051 --> 01:11:39,051
We want it to be a very helpful map that always helps us find our way around.

845
01:11:39,051 --> 01:11:44,051
Our brain only weighs like three pounds or something.

846
01:11:44,051 --> 01:11:50,051
And most of it is about how to balance and keeping your heart rate up or whatever,

847
01:11:50,051 --> 01:11:53,051
visual perception and things like that.

848
01:11:53,051 --> 01:11:58,051
So this thing is small, and it's not going to be able to model the entire universe,

849
01:11:58,051 --> 01:12:00,051
which is the ideal.

850
01:12:00,051 --> 01:12:03,051
But even in that ideal, that would be a very funny thing

851
01:12:03,051 --> 01:12:06,051
because it would actually model a different universe that –

852
01:12:06,051 --> 01:12:09,051
I'd love to talk more about that, but it's actually –

853
01:12:09,051 --> 01:12:13,051
it's not possible nor desirable to have a perfect model of the entire universe.

854
01:12:13,051 --> 01:12:19,051
And since everything is related to each other because there's no contradictions
allowed in knowledge,

855
01:12:19,051 --> 01:12:24,051
the only way you'll ever know if you're correct about anything would be to be
omniscient

856
01:12:24,051 --> 01:12:27,051
and know everything and have the perfect model of the universe, which I just said is
impossible.

857
01:12:27,051 --> 01:12:31,051
Kind of a weird way of talking here, but what I'm saying is knowledge is imperfect,

858
01:12:31,051 --> 01:12:34,051
and we're always approximating better, so we always have error.

859
01:12:34,051 --> 01:12:37,051
And we want to make sure that we get the errors out.

860
01:12:37,051 --> 01:12:41,051
And that is why I love your show, and I love Bitcoin Uncensored because of the rule.

861
01:12:41,051 --> 01:12:43,051
Rules number one and two.

862
01:12:43,051 --> 01:12:49,051
And guys, I embrace the principle of real Karl Popper science, which is fallibilism,

863
01:12:49,051 --> 01:12:53,051
which is that we don't know a lot.

864
01:12:53,051 --> 01:12:55,051
The human brain only weighs 3 pounds.

865
01:12:55,051 --> 01:13:01,051
It has structural defects and biases that are trying to mislead us all the time.

866
01:13:02,051 --> 01:13:04,051
Can I jump in on this?

867
01:13:04,051 --> 01:13:08,051
The problem I have with science is that literally the hoi polloi cannot do it.

868
01:13:08,051 --> 01:13:13,051
And if you try to get them to, they'll believe crazy shit.

869
01:13:13,051 --> 01:13:15,051
Because they can't discern claims.

870
01:13:15,051 --> 01:13:18,051
So let me ask you a quick question.

871
01:13:18,051 --> 01:13:24,051
Some people aren't as good at it, and it's possible that some people can't do it,

872
01:13:24,051 --> 01:13:27,051
but everyone does some version of it.

873
01:13:27,051 --> 01:13:32,051
You wouldn't be able to learn how to speak English if you couldn't slowly delete
errors.

874
01:13:32,051 --> 01:13:36,051
So the point is not being right or being wrong or being good enough.

875
01:13:36,051 --> 01:13:40,051
The point is just that you care about the first derivative, so to speak.

876
01:13:40,051 --> 01:13:46,051
You care about making progress over time, trying to get better and better at it over
time.

877
01:13:47,051 --> 01:13:52,051
But the hoi polloi believe that the borders of the United States is objectively
true.

878
01:13:52,051 --> 01:13:57,051
They believe that the universe is configured in such a way that the map was always
like this.

879
01:14:01,051 --> 01:14:03,051
Or even that the United States is a thing.

880
01:14:04,051 --> 01:14:07,051
Yeah, right. It only exists in our head. It's a great thing.

881
01:14:07,051 --> 01:14:11,051
But as I say, that's not an issue because all of our knowledge only exists in our
head.

882
01:14:11,051 --> 01:14:13,051
And it's all slightly imperfect.

883
01:14:13,051 --> 01:14:18,051
So the map can still be useful. It can still be more accurate than not.

884
01:14:20,051 --> 01:14:25,051
I feel like if we show them how the meat is made, they then start making their own
meat.

885
01:14:25,051 --> 01:14:30,051
Except that their meat is so discombobulated from science

886
01:14:30,051 --> 01:14:33,051
because they themselves don't understand that they're beholden to these principles.

887
01:14:34,051 --> 01:14:35,051
Good point.

888
01:14:35,051 --> 01:14:39,051
So I'm going to say that my concern is not so much...

889
01:14:40,051 --> 01:14:45,051
My concern is that because we're doing this show and who knows how many people will
listen

890
01:14:45,051 --> 01:14:47,051
and if they'll be in the hoi polloi or not.

891
01:14:47,051 --> 01:14:50,051
We bored them to death. We bored them to death at this point.

892
01:14:50,051 --> 01:14:53,051
They're going to resent the intro enough to where they won't get this far.

893
01:14:53,051 --> 01:14:55,051
We hope. We can only hope.

894
01:14:56,051 --> 01:14:58,051
But that is still my concern.

895
01:14:58,051 --> 01:15:02,051
So that's what I was trying to say is that all my concerns are just flavor of the
absence of science.

896
01:15:02,051 --> 01:15:06,051
Today we do not have... It's very difficult when you have two...

897
01:15:06,677 --> 01:15:33,677
political parties. Since it's post-Civil War, you really have two states. They're
both one-party states. One is the Republican one-party state and the other is
Democrat one-party state. Ideas do not rise up. In a few trivial areas, they do,
where it doesn't matter. But on the big questions about like, you know, how should
Bitcoin... What's Bitcoin's plan for crushing all the altcoins? Or how is Bitcoin
going to do that?

898
01:15:33,677 --> 01:15:46,677
How is Bitcoin going to win? You know, we want to make sure that it's a big part of
people's lives 10 years from now. On big questions like that, you are not allowed
to...

899
01:15:46,677 --> 01:15:57,677
If you say something that neither like Greg Maxwell or, you know, I guess I could
say Roger Ver, but he's not really the right person.

900
01:15:57,677 --> 01:16:10,677
If you say something that the large blockers and the small blockers won't like,
you're like running third party. And so you're kind of doomed, I think, which is
important for people to recognize.

901
01:16:10,677 --> 01:16:20,677
So the advice is don't run third party. Pretend. Pretend to be on... Put all your
chips on one or the other in public when you talk and when it doesn't matter.

902
01:16:20,677 --> 01:16:41,677
So like you have these friends and you can be, you know, you should fake it. But
that is all of my... If I were to make three bullet points, they would just be
expressions of this idea that we have something where errors are either persisting
or they're not being deleted quickly enough.

903
01:16:41,677 --> 01:16:56,677
And so I think, you know, when people, you know, the dominance index falls and stays
low for so long, I don't understand why people don't perceive the need to do
anything about that.

904
01:16:56,677 --> 01:17:19,677
And I think that I hate to impugn people's motives, but I would say that a lot of
them are just people trying to show off how loyal they are to the Republican Party
or whatever. They're just trying to say, well, you know, wow, it's unthinkable that
anything bad would ever happen. And that's why I call it the fiddling while Rome
burns scenario. And I find that to be very overconfident.

905
01:17:20,677 --> 01:17:32,677
Motivated ignorance eventually extends into this, like, nothing is wrong here as the
building is burning. And I think we're... I don't think the building is burning, but
I think we're a little in that territory.

906
01:17:32,677 --> 01:17:55,677
Yeah, like, it would be something like, like, if you show up and you show up to the
Republican Party convention, and the RNC leader shows up and says, this is the best
convention hall, super fireproof. You know, it's really great. We spared no expense.
So wonderful. And then he leaves to go get some coffee or something. And then the
place starts burning down.

907
01:17:56,677 --> 01:18:10,677
People who run out, and then the fire department comes and puts out the fire, and
only like two or three people die or something. But the people who stayed in the
building, the RNC leader, he knows he can really trust them. You know, the other
people are the free thinkers. You got to get...

908
01:18:10,677 --> 01:18:38,677
When time comes around for who's going to be part of your... who's going to be your
chief of staff or something, you don't really want the independent people. You want
the idiots who stayed in this building while it literally almost burned to the
ground, you know, killing them all inside. So you don't want... that's why I say the
motivated ignorance, it helps. It helps the party be cohesive. And it helps you. If
the party wins, you, you're doing great.

909
01:18:38,677 --> 01:19:04,677
So it is helpful. There's a reason why it exists and why we all do it. We absolutely
all do it. But it wouldn't matter if we had more of a scientific process. This is
why I was disappointed that people weren't more interested in the Fork of Futures
idea. That would be very simple. There'd be no need for any of this psychology,
politics stuff. Of course, everyone wants to say out loud that they don't like
politics or manipulation, but secretly they do want it, of course.

910
01:19:04,677 --> 01:19:32,677
Of course, yeah, that's what you...

911
01:19:32,677 --> 01:19:35,677
We see that all the time. And I even do that sometimes. But...

912
01:20:02,677 --> 01:20:30,677
So that would have been really easy. But of course, people don't want to do that.
Because they want the control because they thought they had a better chance of
controlling it themselves. So it's a question of, it's a question of, you know, it
is really all about control the whole time. And no one wants to take the control
away from themselves and give it to like the user where it belongs and belongs with
the investors and the users. Everyone will say that they are working to help the
investors and the users. But of course, they secretly will not.

913
01:20:30,677 --> 01:20:58,677
My advice to all the listeners is to fake it and pretend. Don't go on a crusade
against it. It's fun for a few people to be the truth crusaders, but it's very
ineffective because you end up being like Ron Paul, where you can't win, but you
start the movement.

914
01:20:58,677 --> 01:21:02,677
And so you want...

915
01:21:28,677 --> 01:21:44,677
Okay, perfect. What do we want? Give me an outcome. Do we want guns to be restricted
or do we want guns to be not restricted?

916
01:21:44,677 --> 01:21:54,677
I think right now the ball is in the court of the people. They've made a big swing
and they say we want banning assault weapons or something like that. So that's a
popular one, I think.

917
01:21:54,677 --> 01:22:00,677
Okay, so then like what we do is we start off with gun safety. Paul, do we believe
in gun safety?

918
01:22:00,677 --> 01:22:02,677
Right. Of course we do. Right. Yes. Yeah.

919
01:22:02,677 --> 01:22:10,677
And so, Paul, do we believe that the people who don't believe in gun safety or
sorry, the people who disagree with us don't believe in gun safety?

920
01:22:10,677 --> 01:22:22,677
And then like the license to we just goes from there. Like I can just keep on going
with it as much as you want. And before you know it, like we'll take an outcome that
was completely disjointed from the license to we.

921
01:22:22,677 --> 01:22:38,677
But you've been because of the seg, you've been strung along the entire way, along
with like minded people who were responding to virtue signals and no action towards
an outcome, at which point then the leader and the man who carries the license to we
has achieved his outcome.

922
01:22:38,677 --> 01:23:00,677
So like we can do this here in Bitcoin, but we have to decide what it is we want.
And we have to decide who's coming with us and who's the whole. Yeah, well, it's
easy. You can't have that conversation. It depends. But you still like if it's easy,
if it's that easy, then the opponent can just copy it in the alternate direction.
Right. So there's a little bit more complicated than that.

923
01:23:00,677 --> 01:23:22,677
I've been watching this and I agree that's more complicated than that. But like it's
so like I've been kind of like looking at some of the stuff more like you find like
people don't evaluate ideas at all. So like they evaluate people. And like I see
this a lot in the feminism stuff. And maybe this is new. I don't know. But like I'm
literally seeing these feminist outcomes now that are effectively segregation list.

924
01:23:22,677 --> 01:23:42,677
And it's hilarious to me because if you look at what the outcomes are, it's like
segregation is the outcome of what was originally a pro assimilation belief. And and
like I'm like watching this, like I'm the only person who can understand this. And I
think I'm going crazy sometimes because it's like very obvious to me. And other
people are champing it the whole way because they believed in people.

925
01:23:42,677 --> 01:24:02,677
They believed in the people around them who also had that same belief in people. And
they found that joining in was the less risky cause. So like we could do that here
by casting affinities into this notion of we under the lead of some charismatic
leader like that doesn't that doesn't there's not going to be.

926
01:24:02,677 --> 01:24:24,677
Back to the Machiavellian like imperative here where it's like, should we use every
dirty trick? Or should there be a line that's not crossed?

927
01:24:24,677 --> 01:24:36,677
Like how easy it is to change people's minds or whether or not people are even
persuaded by arguments or if whether what they're really persuaded by is that
they're worried about like how humiliating it's going to be.

928
01:24:36,677 --> 01:24:48,677
To be clear, Paul, I didn't make this accessible here. You, the people watching the
show are not the hoi polloi. Like you are people who are have been through this
episode thus far. You know who I am. You know who Paul is. This is a conversation
amongst us.

929
01:24:48,677 --> 01:25:08,677
I get that the herein is a manifestation of the license to we. But like, this is the
way it seems to be. Sorry, continue, Paul. I was talking to them. Well, yeah, that's
funny. I mean, we'll see like how well that holds up after it gets shared. You know,
I'm going to be inspected like like if I took this video private at this point, like
that'd be great.

930
01:25:08,677 --> 01:25:28,677
Like I, I don't like whitewashing stuff, but like somebody has to have these
conversations because right now there's chaos.

931
01:25:28,677 --> 01:25:48,677
It's still okay. It's good that the number two project is Ethereum because Ethereum
is such a giant nonsense machine that is just totally crazy that that's not as good.
Bitcoin cash is a much stronger competitor to Bitcoin core than Ethereum is. And so
I'm not.

932
01:25:48,677 --> 01:26:04,677
But it is, I think there is a lot of stuff. There are many instances where things
just aren't known. People don't know things. And they don't know like about this,
you know, kind of leadership or community management or whatever you want to call
this weird new thing.

933
01:26:04,677 --> 01:26:26,677
It's hard for me to even talk about it because, again, I just think it should all
just be inside chains and I would just solve the problem. People will never, people
will always disagree because there's always so much to learn and talk about. So
people will always disagree in general. I don't think we'll ever reach like a
nirvana where everyone agrees about it.

934
01:26:26,677 --> 01:26:36,677
No, of course. But but politics is like the art of consensus. I mean, it is sort of
proof of stake model. It's weird. No, politics is the art of consensus.

935
01:26:36,677 --> 01:26:57,677
Yeah. And I mean, like something I was thinking of, I would start doing. I don't
think I will, but it would be hilarious if I could just start saying that I
represent Bitcoin core. And the nature of the politics right now is so crazy that
anybody who would take that title from me would bear greater social risk than not
claiming it. Right. So then I could I can march into the nihilistic sort of chaos
that we have.

936
01:26:58,677 --> 01:27:21,677
Declare myself leader of Bitcoin core, run unopposed and and take the hoi poi with
me, hoi polloi with me. And like, I'm not going to do that unless I do it through
the irony. Yeah, well, exactly. And like, what's also interesting, too, is that like
I've seen this time and time again, this is very blockchain specific. If I do it
with the irony, people won't oppose me. If I sit here and I say, like, this is
funny.

937
01:27:21,677 --> 01:27:31,677
People who oppose you because they don't get that you're joking. So it'd be funny.
Right. Yeah. I think you should do it. I mean, what what's the downside?

938
01:27:32,677 --> 01:27:37,677
For me, nothing like reputationally, I don't really care because, like, I've always
been this sort of antagonist.

939
01:27:37,677 --> 01:27:39,677
What's the downside?

940
01:27:40,677 --> 01:27:41,677
Yes.

941
01:27:41,677 --> 01:27:49,677
I don't I don't think there is any. I mean, what's funny is that I could very easily
just I could see myself finagling like a television appearance or something out of
it if we did it right.

942
01:27:49,677 --> 01:27:54,677
You know, but it comes down to the community and how much they want to laugh. That's
the thing about me.

943
01:27:54,677 --> 01:28:03,677
If you imagine if you sold it, you sold the meme successfully, but then people dig
up all of your other crazy videos where you're doing all this, this crazy nonsense.

944
01:28:03,677 --> 01:28:12,677
And they have, oh, here's a clip of the guy behind Bitcoin. And it's I don't know,
like, what would be your craziest clip that would be difficult to.

945
01:28:12,677 --> 01:28:18,677
Well, I want to, like, groom somebody. I really, really want to take some with a
pristine reputation and just like March.

946
01:28:18,677 --> 01:28:26,677
And I love I love, like, experimenting with people. You know, I see what, like,
Steve Bannon couldn't be president or like Karl Rove couldn't be.

947
01:28:26,677 --> 01:28:30,677
She's just fine because, like, find like an actor or someone and just hire them.

948
01:28:30,677 --> 01:28:34,677
Someone who is a pristine record like like you would be perfect. I got you. I'm not
I'm not I'm not actually.

949
01:28:35,677 --> 01:28:40,677
See, I'm not because the side chain thing is is anti it's not Republican.

950
01:28:40,677 --> 01:28:45,677
It's just it's whatever it's what's good for the people. And so that's what's not
good for the Republican Party.

951
01:28:45,677 --> 01:28:48,677
By definition, everyone's got a little bit.

952
01:28:48,677 --> 01:28:54,677
See, yeah, that's it. Right. That flaw is even better because it's so people.

953
01:28:54,677 --> 01:28:56,677
You got to watch out. The bullshit detector can go off.

954
01:28:56,677 --> 01:29:02,677
Like if I put some guy out there who, like, just looked like the Winklevoss, like
exactly and had no history prior.

955
01:29:02,677 --> 01:29:05,677
And that would be a little bit like weird. I mean, that is how we find our fakes.

956
01:29:05,677 --> 01:29:09,677
The flaws do make people a little bit more human, you know, more relatable.

957
01:29:09,677 --> 01:29:13,677
Well, people like the sort of like reformed story.

958
01:29:13,677 --> 01:29:15,677
You know, the narrator, like the guy who, like, went left.

959
01:29:15,677 --> 01:29:21,677
Yeah, I learned everyone knows their own mistakes and they want they secretly want
they project their own reform.

960
01:29:21,677 --> 01:29:24,677
But like, oh, that's like me when I made all those mistakes in the past.

961
01:29:24,677 --> 01:29:27,677
I was a different person, but now I'm perfect.

962
01:29:28,677 --> 01:29:30,677
Exactly. Right. Exactly.

963
01:29:30,677 --> 01:29:35,677
That risk, you've been de-risked of that option now that you've gone through the
trenches, come back reformed.

964
01:29:35,677 --> 01:29:37,677
So, yeah, we could we could do that with you.

965
01:29:37,677 --> 01:29:39,677
Paul, do you want to be the leader of Bitcoin?

966
01:29:39,677 --> 01:29:45,677
I don't think so. Right. Because I feel like that's going to lead to interesting,
like, mafia conversations or something.

967
01:29:45,677 --> 01:29:48,677
Right. There's no other. Giacomo is also talking about.

968
01:29:48,677 --> 01:29:56,677
You should vehemently you should vehemently protest that position because that would
make it maximally, maximally funny.

969
01:29:56,677 --> 01:29:58,677
And then people would start promoting you.

970
01:29:58,677 --> 01:30:01,677
And then Bitcoin Core wouldn't know what to do because you didn't ask to be that
person.

971
01:30:01,677 --> 01:30:07,677
Right. Some some some like banal like platitude like that.

972
01:30:08,677 --> 01:30:10,677
It just it has a lot of room for growth.

973
01:30:10,677 --> 01:30:13,677
I think that the audience can decide how much they want to see something.

974
01:30:13,677 --> 01:30:17,677
Yeah, I would like to know how much because my guess is not very much.

975
01:30:17,677 --> 01:30:20,677
But we'll see. You'd be surprised.

976
01:30:20,677 --> 01:30:22,677
There's a guy in here called Mayor of Bitcoin right now.

977
01:30:22,677 --> 01:30:24,677
Mayor of Bitcoin. That is good. He does get it.

978
01:30:24,677 --> 01:30:27,677
He does get it. That's good. No, I actually think that would be funny.

979
01:30:27,677 --> 01:30:31,677
I would not want to be like I want to be someone like it's just a slightly weirder
title.

980
01:30:31,677 --> 01:30:34,677
It's like Mayor of Bitcoin is kind of like that's a kind of perfect.

981
01:30:34,677 --> 01:30:36,677
You know, it's that person is doing really well.

982
01:30:36,677 --> 01:30:40,677
You know, I like Rick Falk being like the CEO of Bitcoin.

983
01:30:40,677 --> 01:30:42,677
Just a little too serious.

984
01:30:42,677 --> 01:30:44,677
He's dialed back.

985
01:30:44,677 --> 01:30:45,677
Say it again?

986
01:30:45,677 --> 01:30:52,677
Rick Falk being. Remember he wrote the letter about he was CEO of Bitcoin or CEO of
Bitcoin Cash or whatever he was.

987
01:30:53,677 --> 01:30:55,677
That's the thing. You can't come in here with too much reverie.

988
01:30:55,677 --> 01:30:58,677
CEO is too much. You got to be mayor. That's Mayor of Bitcoin.

989
01:30:58,677 --> 01:31:01,677
It's a small town but it's growing, you know.

990
01:31:01,677 --> 01:31:03,677
It's got to be the right kind of bed.

991
01:31:03,677 --> 01:31:09,677
It's got to be like an opening of the door to where like people can take it as
either a joke or real.

992
01:31:09,677 --> 01:31:11,677
And then it just kind of like propels from there. That's the use.

993
01:31:11,677 --> 01:31:16,677
You got to get the joke people and the real people temporarily before they're like,
oh, it's a joke.

994
01:31:16,677 --> 01:31:18,677
I knew the whole time. That's what they would say.

995
01:31:19,677 --> 01:31:21,677
Yeah, like I think what did I see recently?

996
01:31:21,677 --> 01:31:23,677
Like useless token.

997
01:31:23,677 --> 01:31:26,677
Useless Ethereum token or something like that as like a market cap.

998
01:31:26,677 --> 01:31:30,677
Yeah, we had like dust coin, like idiot coin or whatever.

999
01:31:30,677 --> 01:31:32,677
Of course, they all did.

1000
01:31:32,677 --> 01:31:36,677
I don't know how well they really did, but they appeared to do okay.

1001
01:31:36,677 --> 01:31:37,677
Yeah, I don't know.

1002
01:31:37,677 --> 01:31:42,677
I have to think about what fake leadership title I would find to be perfectly
appropriate.

1003
01:31:42,677 --> 01:31:46,677
I think what your strategy should be is reluctance.

1004
01:31:47,677 --> 01:31:48,677
Yeah.

1005
01:31:48,677 --> 01:31:50,677
Reluctant leaders are the best number one.

1006
01:31:50,677 --> 01:31:52,677
People can rally around them.

1007
01:31:52,677 --> 01:31:56,677
So when the joke becomes real, then it can be like…

1008
01:31:56,677 --> 01:32:00,677
Can I be like Reluctant Chancellor of the Exchequer?

1009
01:32:00,677 --> 01:32:03,677
No, I think you should just not want the title.

1010
01:32:03,677 --> 01:32:05,677
You should just be like, this is crazy.

1011
01:32:05,677 --> 01:32:06,677
I don't want this title.

1012
01:32:06,677 --> 01:32:08,677
It would be a funny meme.

1013
01:32:08,677 --> 01:32:11,677
My friends and family would get a huge kick out of it.

1014
01:32:12,677 --> 01:32:15,677
Yeah, I think everybody would if you played your cards right.

1015
01:32:15,677 --> 01:32:19,677
And you just like actually didn't want the job for long enough.

1016
01:32:19,677 --> 01:32:20,677
Well, that's the joke.

1017
01:32:20,677 --> 01:32:21,677
It's like, what is the job?

1018
01:32:21,677 --> 01:32:24,677
As I just explained, I really think Satoshi thought of everything.

1019
01:32:24,677 --> 01:32:26,677
We don't really need to do anything.

1020
01:32:26,677 --> 01:32:28,677
So it's like I'm in a way more qualified.

1021
01:32:29,677 --> 01:32:33,677
When people can't rationalize, they will trust the prime believer.

1022
01:32:33,677 --> 01:32:36,677
And that's what the job is, like spiritual leader.

1023
01:32:36,677 --> 01:32:38,677
Oh, that would be funny.

1024
01:32:38,677 --> 01:32:39,677
Yeah.

1025
01:32:39,677 --> 01:32:40,677
No, actually, that would be great.

1026
01:32:40,677 --> 01:32:41,677
Spiritual leader.

1027
01:32:41,677 --> 01:32:45,677
There you go, spiritual leader of Bitcoin or Bitcoin coin.

1028
01:32:45,677 --> 01:32:48,677
I feel like almost Luke Jr. is the spiritual leader.

1029
01:32:49,677 --> 01:32:54,677
So, you know, the interesting thing about the engineers is I'm kind of figuring this
out.

1030
01:32:54,677 --> 01:33:00,677
Engineers are weirdly the most faith-based people, albeit they're also the most
loyal.

1031
01:33:00,677 --> 01:33:02,677
So like, this is my own theory.

1032
01:33:02,677 --> 01:33:03,677
I haven't quite figured this out yet.

1033
01:33:03,677 --> 01:33:07,677
But you look at some of these people who like are engineers.

1034
01:33:07,677 --> 01:33:09,677
They're often like super religious people.

1035
01:33:09,677 --> 01:33:12,677
And I think it's because in a lot of ways they have the most faith.

1036
01:33:12,677 --> 01:33:15,677
But they adhere to whatever they heard first.

1037
01:33:15,677 --> 01:33:21,677
And frankly, that's one of the things we also, this discussion is like who gets to
who first.

1038
01:33:21,677 --> 01:33:25,677
Because these new people are showing up and like EOS gets to them first.

1039
01:33:25,677 --> 01:33:27,677
Ethereum gets to them first.

1040
01:33:27,677 --> 01:33:28,677
Times Square.

1041
01:33:28,677 --> 01:33:31,677
So engineers and scientists are very different, actually.

1042
01:33:31,677 --> 01:33:37,677
So scientists are about the unknown and they're very comfortable with ambiguity.

1043
01:33:37,677 --> 01:33:42,677
And they're just trying to say, well, let's try this theory out and maybe let's try
this experiment.

1044
01:33:42,677 --> 01:33:44,677
Oh, this suggests maybe there's a Higgs boson.

1045
01:33:44,677 --> 01:33:45,677
Maybe there's not, though.

1046
01:33:45,677 --> 01:33:46,677
Who knows, whatever.

1047
01:33:46,677 --> 01:33:52,677
Engineers, they actually, it's very similar to, you know, being like a Bible study
or something.

1048
01:33:52,677 --> 01:33:54,677
They learn this stuff from a book.

1049
01:33:54,677 --> 01:34:00,677
And they've never had anything in their life that contradicts what they learned in
like a static textbook.

1050
01:34:00,677 --> 01:34:04,677
So when they build a bridge, they just take all that stuff as true.

1051
01:34:04,677 --> 01:34:06,677
And so engineering and science are very different.

1052
01:34:06,677 --> 01:34:19,677
And I think another point to your point that you were sort of saying about them
being loyal is engineers, they don't have a lot of, oh, this is going to be, you
know, I don't want to say they don't have a lot of like social skills.

1053
01:34:19,677 --> 01:34:22,677
But they just, they don't spend a lot of time thinking about it.

1054
01:34:22,677 --> 01:34:25,677
So I think they are really vulnerable.

1055
01:34:25,677 --> 01:34:32,677
They don't, it's like they don't have a good immune system for like, I don't know
what you might call, what you might call this.

1056
01:34:32,677 --> 01:34:35,677
But like loyalty-based attacks or something.

1057
01:34:35,677 --> 01:34:45,677
They just, you know, they're kind of like, what is it, Robin Hanson had a little
line about like some people like onions, and they have a lot of layers.

1058
01:34:45,677 --> 01:34:46,677
It's continuous.

1059
01:34:46,677 --> 01:34:48,677
But other people are like eggs.

1060
01:34:48,677 --> 01:34:51,677
And once you get through, I think the engineers are like eggs.

1061
01:34:51,677 --> 01:34:53,677
Once you get through, then you're in.

1062
01:34:53,677 --> 01:34:54,677
And that's it.

1063
01:34:54,677 --> 01:34:55,677
You're in.

1064
01:34:55,677 --> 01:34:56,677
You're into the yolk.

1065
01:34:56,677 --> 01:34:57,677
And that's it.

1066
01:34:57,677 --> 01:35:00,677
You can just inject all your crazy ideas in there.

1067
01:35:00,677 --> 01:35:01,677
And that's it.

1068
01:35:03,677 --> 01:35:06,677
Man, I got to think of like, we got to think like the kids more.

1069
01:35:06,677 --> 01:35:09,677
I hate to say it that way because I did this talk for the kids.

1070
01:35:09,677 --> 01:35:11,677
And like, it's obvious that like that's a battleground.

1071
01:35:11,677 --> 01:35:13,677
You know, I don't love it.

1072
01:35:13,677 --> 01:35:17,677
But I don't think we should be like advocating that we get to them.

1073
01:35:17,677 --> 01:35:20,677
But we should be at least considering it like as an 18.

1074
01:35:20,677 --> 01:35:24,677
See, Giacomo criticized projects that emphasize marketing.

1075
01:35:24,677 --> 01:35:29,677
And I don't know what to make of that thought because like, what is marketing?

1076
01:35:29,677 --> 01:35:30,677
You know, like that's kind of hard to say.

1077
01:35:30,677 --> 01:35:33,677
But I kind of understand what he was getting at,

1078
01:35:33,677 --> 01:35:38,677
which is that if you invest in a resource into marketing,

1079
01:35:38,677 --> 01:35:42,677
then you spend a dollar on marketing, you know,

1080
01:35:42,677 --> 01:35:45,677
you make the sign and you paint the thing on it.

1081
01:35:45,677 --> 01:35:50,677
Whether or not you paint Democrat or Republican or Green Party

1082
01:35:50,677 --> 01:35:55,677
or just some random nonsense letters, it's kind of the same.

1083
01:35:55,677 --> 01:36:00,677
So it's necessarily not really a fundamental information sharing type thing

1084
01:36:00,677 --> 01:36:02,677
that you do when you do marketing.

1085
01:36:02,677 --> 01:36:04,677
So it's kind of a zero-sum game for attention.

1086
01:36:04,677 --> 01:36:05,677
And it's not good.

1087
01:36:05,677 --> 01:36:08,677
The 18-year-olds have like tons of sweat equity.

1088
01:36:08,677 --> 01:36:11,677
Like you and I are not putting in tons of sweat equity into some of these projects.

1089
01:36:11,677 --> 01:36:13,677
But the 18-year-olds sure as hell will.

1090
01:36:13,677 --> 01:36:18,677
But I think like can we do it a different way, you know, that's not marketing?

1091
01:36:18,677 --> 01:36:20,677
Can we have a better idea?

1092
01:36:20,677 --> 01:36:23,677
I really think, you know, side chains is one way.

1093
01:36:24,677 --> 01:36:27,677
I liked, you know, when you guys did the show and you did the scammies,

1094
01:36:27,677 --> 01:36:30,677
like stuff like that, I think that helps, you know,

1095
01:36:30,677 --> 01:36:34,677
and you have this defense of that bad idea.

1096
01:36:34,677 --> 01:36:36,677
There's no room for skepticism anymore.

1097
01:36:36,677 --> 01:36:37,677
It's ridiculous.

1098
01:36:37,677 --> 01:36:39,677
I know the market is shocking.

1099
01:36:39,677 --> 01:36:43,677
I think the market is bigger, but as a percentage, it's plunged so much

1100
01:36:43,677 --> 01:36:46,677
that I'm not sure how people would take one look at it

1101
01:36:46,677 --> 01:36:49,677
and they'd look at the view count or something.

1102
01:36:50,677 --> 01:36:51,677
It's also tough fucking work.

1103
01:36:51,677 --> 01:36:55,677
People throw eggs at you like, God, like not that I can't take it,

1104
01:36:55,677 --> 01:36:58,677
but like I'll be damned if I'm going to put this many hours into something.

1105
01:36:58,677 --> 01:37:01,677
Like I'd rather go ahead and build something at this point.

1106
01:37:01,677 --> 01:37:04,677
And not that I'm going to start an ICO or anything nonsense like that,

1107
01:37:04,677 --> 01:37:08,677
but like, you know, build morale or something like that at least

1108
01:37:08,677 --> 01:37:10,677
than deal with some of the skepticism work.

1109
01:37:10,677 --> 01:37:14,677
Well, yeah, of course it's difficult because you're going against these people.

1110
01:37:14,677 --> 01:37:17,677
Well, I mean, in a lot of sense, it's a lost cause.

1111
01:37:17,677 --> 01:37:19,677
I mean, can anyone imagine really going?

1112
01:37:19,677 --> 01:37:22,677
Like what if you went to like the Democratic National Convention

1113
01:37:22,677 --> 01:37:25,677
and you went down and you tried to convince those people

1114
01:37:25,677 --> 01:37:27,677
to become like libertarians or something?

1115
01:37:27,677 --> 01:37:29,677
Like what a total waste of time that is, right?

1116
01:37:29,677 --> 01:37:30,677
Exactly.

1117
01:37:30,677 --> 01:37:31,677
That's a waste of time.

1118
01:37:31,677 --> 01:37:32,677
Yeah.

1119
01:37:32,677 --> 01:37:35,677
So obviously going for the young, it's more efficient if you go for the young,

1120
01:37:35,677 --> 01:37:37,677
but everyone's going to go for the young.

1121
01:37:37,677 --> 01:37:39,677
So it's like everyone's figured that out.

1122
01:37:39,677 --> 01:37:41,677
But we have to keep up.

1123
01:37:41,677 --> 01:37:43,677
That's the battleground.

1124
01:37:43,677 --> 01:37:47,677
These kids are jumping in and they believe that they can't get into Bitcoin

1125
01:37:47,677 --> 01:37:49,677
because those gains have been won.

1126
01:37:49,677 --> 01:37:52,677
And on top of that, as you've experienced,

1127
01:37:52,677 --> 01:37:55,677
there's not a lot of warm reception coming out of the Bitcoin camp from them.

1128
01:37:55,677 --> 01:37:58,677
Granted, I can come up with tons of shit for them to do,

1129
01:37:58,677 --> 01:38:01,677
and I bet you even Bitcoin core programmers or whatever you want to call them

1130
01:38:01,677 --> 01:38:06,677
can as well, but there's no interface by which we can control these people.

1131
01:38:06,677 --> 01:38:07,677
And you know what?

1132
01:38:07,677 --> 01:38:09,677
The truth is we've got to separate some of these people out.

1133
01:38:09,677 --> 01:38:11,677
Immigration should not be completely unencumbered.

1134
01:38:11,677 --> 01:38:13,677
We have to say this guy can come, that guy can't.

1135
01:38:13,677 --> 01:38:16,677
But good luck trying to get consensus on that.

1136
01:38:16,677 --> 01:38:19,677
I agree with a lot of what you said.

1137
01:38:21,677 --> 01:38:22,677
What did we miss?

1138
01:38:22,677 --> 01:38:23,677
What did we miss?

1139
01:38:23,677 --> 01:38:24,677
What else should we talk about?

1140
01:38:24,677 --> 01:38:25,677
What did we do?

1141
01:38:25,677 --> 01:38:27,677
Did we get through most of our stuff here?

1142
01:38:27,677 --> 01:38:28,677
I don't know.

1143
01:38:28,677 --> 01:38:29,677
Who knows what we did or not.

1144
01:38:29,677 --> 01:38:32,677
Oh, my USB mouse went crazy, so I have to scroll.

1145
01:38:32,677 --> 01:38:34,677
Mouse.

1146
01:38:34,677 --> 01:38:35,677
The keyboard.

1147
01:38:35,677 --> 01:38:38,677
Do you think blockchain is a programming language for people?

1148
01:38:38,677 --> 01:38:40,677
I get so much slack for that, but I maintain it.

1149
01:38:40,677 --> 01:38:41,677
Oh, no.

1150
01:38:41,677 --> 01:38:42,677
I'm so glad you brought that up.

1151
01:38:42,677 --> 01:38:44,677
Did you put that in these notes?

1152
01:38:44,677 --> 01:38:46,677
I don't think so.

1153
01:38:46,677 --> 01:38:51,677
So I was going to say, if I was going to do, I was thinking about, yeah, what I
would say

1154
01:38:51,677 --> 01:38:55,677
if I did my own podcast or something, and I was thinking like the second episode or

1155
01:38:55,677 --> 01:38:59,677
something would be, Bitcoin is not written in C++.

1156
01:38:59,677 --> 01:39:01,677
Because I don't think it is.

1157
01:39:01,677 --> 01:39:02,677
That's true.

1158
01:39:02,677 --> 01:39:04,677
I don't think it is.

1159
01:39:04,677 --> 01:39:07,677
My real estate agent was like, what is blockchain, Chris?

1160
01:39:07,677 --> 01:39:08,677
I'm like, you don't need to know.

1161
01:39:08,677 --> 01:39:09,677
It's really complicated.

1162
01:39:09,677 --> 01:39:10,677
No, really, Chris, what is it?

1163
01:39:10,677 --> 01:39:13,677
I'm like, well, it's a programming language, but rather than like program computers,
you

1164
01:39:13,677 --> 01:39:14,677
program people.

1165
01:39:14,677 --> 01:39:15,677
Yeah, I know.

1166
01:39:15,677 --> 01:39:17,677
And I realize that's really what I think it is.

1167
01:39:17,677 --> 01:39:21,677
And what I'm realizing is people show up with greed, and it's like, oh, you have
greed.

1168
01:39:21,677 --> 01:39:22,677
Wonderful.

1169
01:39:22,677 --> 01:39:27,677
And now I can take an assessment of what it is that you're greedy about, what you
value,

1170
01:39:27,677 --> 01:39:29,677
and I can steer you in a direction based on that.

1171
01:39:29,677 --> 01:39:33,677
And that's how the instructions are fed into your computer cell.

1172
01:39:33,677 --> 01:39:35,677
And I'm not immune from this.

1173
01:39:36,677 --> 01:39:40,677
Also, that applies to the free market in general, or whatever.

1174
01:39:40,677 --> 01:39:43,677
Yeah, I think it's a good thing.

1175
01:39:43,677 --> 01:39:47,677
In hunter-gatherer societies, how did you motivate people if not through this state

1176
01:39:47,677 --> 01:39:48,677
of greed?

1177
01:39:48,677 --> 01:39:52,677
And then how do you coordinate them if not through some propensity to be led?

1178
01:39:52,677 --> 01:39:58,677
Because, again, in this sort of model of the show, the hoi polloi, I hate to be
classist,

1179
01:39:58,677 --> 01:40:02,677
but we have to realize that there was a certain level of...

1180
01:40:03,088 --> 01:40:21,088
Cognitive function, ethic, socioeconomic privilege, call it whatever the fuck you
want. But it's sort of allegiance and adherence to a unified identity that is
becoming less and less the case. And that's okay. But what can we give these people
to do? Because right now, some of them are just doing nonsense.

1181
01:40:21,648 --> 01:40:40,808
I'm not sure. Again, I think it's similar to what I was saying before, where I don't
know that Bitcoin needs to be defended. And I think that oftentimes, it is a fake
thing that we say in order to make ourselves seem more important. Like, we've got to
do all this work to defend Bitcoin or whatever, protect these people.

1182
01:40:40,808 --> 01:41:06,808
If they go into bad projects, they will waste their time, and the project will
explode and fail. But I think there is a difference now in that we have... There is
a risk of... Ethereum could be so dumb, and it could appeal to so many of the hoi
polloi, that it could possibly be like the QWERTY keyboard or something, where at
the end of the day, a lot of this stuff doesn't matter.

1183
01:41:06,808 --> 01:41:13,928
You can make darknet purchases with Ether. It's not like you can't. So you still
can.

1184
01:41:36,808 --> 01:42:03,128
Right. I totally agree. Post-Dow Fork, Ethereum has demonstrated that there are
actually a bunch of people in charge who can make decisions.

1185
01:42:03,128 --> 01:42:26,648
Now, that comes with its own set of risks, which is like that those people get
kidnapped by the mafia and tortured to death for their money or something. But see,
that hasn't happened. So it's exactly the case of the antibiotics or the censorship.
It's exactly that just iterated again, where, well, maybe we live in a world where
you can...

1186
01:42:27,608 --> 01:42:44,968
You know, it's strange. You would think that, based on my conversation with Jason
Seibert and with you and all this other stuff that we all know, you'd think that
Vitalik would be in prison for violating SEC laws or something.

1187
01:42:45,528 --> 01:43:02,248
For whatever reason, that hasn't happened. So it's like if you can convince people
that your project is really, really big, the laws don't apply to you, or at least
the regulators get nervous about applying the laws because they don't understand
what's going on.

1188
01:43:02,248 --> 01:43:18,728
So it's exactly this principle of what you've built has to match the threats in the
environment. And if some of those threats aren't there, or they are there, or
whatever, then you may need to include or not include things.

1189
01:43:21,128 --> 01:43:24,808
Well, I think we've covered all the big stuff for today. I don't know that we got a
lot of conclusions.

1190
01:43:24,808 --> 01:43:25,848
I don't know either.

1191
01:43:26,808 --> 01:43:38,008
I just think we need more organization of like-minded, non-Bitcoin cash people. And
not because I don't like the Bitcoin cash people. Actually, I have really no problem
with Bitcoin cash.

1192
01:43:38,008 --> 01:43:55,528
This notion that they're competing with us, I think it's really stupid. Because what
kind of denialism, I think, does a person have to be a part of that they see Bitcoin
cash as a bigger antagonist than any of these other coins?

1193
01:43:55,848 --> 01:44:08,568
And like, I love Monero. This is also what's hilarious. I love Monero. I think you
love Monero. I think most Bitcoin core proponents love Monero. But the reality is
that Monero probably competes more with Bitcoin core than Bitcoin cash does.

1194
01:44:08,568 --> 01:44:18,568
Well, I think you have the separate issues. It's like, will they compete in terms of
your investment, your personal wealth, not doing very well. So in that sense, they
all compete directly.

1195
01:44:19,528 --> 01:44:35,368
I agree. I think that what it really is is the fact that there's a religious
component here, or at least a faith-based component. And it's more offensive to
people's morality that Bitcoin cash exists. And it's completely decoupled from an
assessment of risks.

1196
01:44:35,368 --> 01:44:42,088
Which I can come up with narratives for the hoi polloi to believe. And if we just
say them, they will. So I don't know why we don't just do that.

1197
01:44:42,168 --> 01:44:55,928
Like, if we all voted and we all said, okay, let's hear me out. I know it's stupid,
but if we all voted that minor centralization was the biggest problem, I'll come up
with a narrative that we can all agree to that promotes motivated ignorance in a
number of ways that will achieve that outcome.

1198
01:44:57,208 --> 01:45:02,408
And, you know, there's a lack of coordination. I don't know what can be said of
that.

1199
01:45:02,968 --> 01:45:21,608
But instead, we've reverted to, honestly, what is just like veer hatred in a lot of
ways. So much so that if like veer says not to do something, that's what you'll do.
Which is hilarious, because now he controls. If you profess to hate this man, why
would you give him this power? I don't hate him.

1200
01:45:21,608 --> 01:45:23,608
Well, I think you and I both like him.

1201
01:45:23,608 --> 01:45:25,608
Yeah, I do.

1202
01:45:25,608 --> 01:45:27,608
He's very honest. He really wants Bitcoin to succeed.

1203
01:45:27,608 --> 01:45:31,608
He's bringing more people to Bitcoin. He still is. I don't care what the fuck you
say.

1204
01:45:31,608 --> 01:45:36,808
I'd rather Roger Ver do cash than a noob use Litecoin. And I even kind of, whatever
with Litecoin.

1205
01:45:36,808 --> 01:45:46,248
No, I feel the same way. Well, and I also feel that he's not, you know, Giacomo
tried to cast him as irrelevant, but I don't, I doubt it.

1206
01:45:46,248 --> 01:46:01,048
He's not irrelevant. And the irony to me is that by hating him, you've now created,
you've created more power there. Because like, there's this notion of like valence,
or valence, I think it's pronounced valence. So like, if you're ambivalent, you have
no valence.

1207
01:46:01,048 --> 01:46:03,048
Yes.

1208
01:46:03,048 --> 01:46:13,048
In psychological terms, maybe you know more about this than I do. But like, if you
hate Ver, and then Ver asserts a positive valence on an idea, you will hate that
idea.

1209
01:46:13,048 --> 01:46:15,048
Right.

1210
01:46:15,048 --> 01:46:21,048
So like, regardless of who you recognize the leader is, like, as long as he exists
as an entity with which you have strong emotions, he will steer you.

1211
01:46:21,048 --> 01:46:35,048
It's like the case of the burning Republican convention building, but just in
reverse, where someone, the Democratic guy says, like, oh, I love the Ritz Carlton,
it's the best hotel. And then like, no one can stay there, because if they did, it
would be, it would send a mixed signal.

1212
01:46:35,048 --> 01:46:49,048
Like, are they saying that because they like the Ritz Carlton or because they are
trying to switch sides? So it's your flake. But yeah, you're right. It's so dumb.
The whole thing is dumb. I wish people would be more aware of how blatantly
political they are. Like, almost everything that is said is a campaign.

1213
01:46:49,048 --> 01:47:03,048
I'm going crazy over here, because like, I'm watching these people, and I'm just, I
know I'm not stupid on some of this stuff, but it's like, okay, but they're just
new. So I don't know, it'd be nice if we had, if we had some organization on like,
hierarchy, so we could have conversations amongst ourselves.

1214
01:47:03,048 --> 01:47:25,048
I think you should create a different character. That would be funny.

1215
01:47:25,048 --> 01:47:45,048
I agree. I was thinking about doing like a perversion of my name, maybe like Roman,
you know, so it'd be like, I don't know, anyway. But like, if ideally what I'd like
to do with the channel is, and I'm not going to do this because it's me, but I could
have groomed someone to become a more charismatic leader, given all the bullshit
that I've done over the years to test the limits.

1216
01:47:45,048 --> 01:48:07,048
Instead, what I'll be doing is I'll create a different Chris DeRose identity, that
like, I'm going to try to keep a play with on this channel. And for the noobs that
come across it, it'll be like the first thing, my hope is it's the first thing they
hear, so they anchor to me. And then I'll promote them towards civility in a way
that I think is responsible, to be clear. And in comportance with, I think, a lot of
the people watching, this is their values.

1217
01:48:07,048 --> 01:48:23,048
But yeah, it would be like eight minute stuff. It's just like easy. This is why we
came here. This is what to think. And this is how we believe. And then just kind of
march them up from there. And that's basically what I'm doing, is creating a march
in the chaos. But, you know, we'll see if that's what ends up materializing. But I
think that's what you need.

1218
01:48:23,048 --> 01:48:49,048
We do need it would be nice if we had there's no like, Bitcoin textbook or something
like that. You know, we have like Andreas's thing, but it's like for programmers.
And I don't know if it's even helpful for programmers to read that a lot of people
say they like the book, but I don't know if they really like it or what it what
about it is that they like, we do need like a Bitcoin textbook that acknowledges
more about the community of Bitcoin. And

1219
01:48:49,048 --> 01:49:05,048
I would just ask the engineers like engineers, dudes, you guys are fucking the ones
have to do everything at the end of the day. What what what do you want me to out
what outcome do you want me to achieve? And like, don't tell me what to believe.
Don't tell them what to believe. Tell me what you want to happen. And then we'll
work from there. And then we'll make it happen. You know,

1220
01:49:05,048 --> 01:49:09,048
yeah, I suppose. But then how would you resolve disputes among engineers?

1221
01:49:35,048 --> 01:49:55,048
And from there, we can see a general, either, you know, an illusion of control from
that class, or at least greater adherence to party lines.

1222
01:49:55,048 --> 01:50:21,048
That's a great idea. I don't think it's ever been tried, which might speak to how
bad the idea actually is. But the idea was that the people making the decisions
would never be able to own any property or they would never be able to do so their
interests would always be pure because they would not be able to they just get bread
and water every day. And they'd be protected by a different class.

1223
01:50:21,048 --> 01:50:50,048
Yeah, them is elements gold, silver and bronze. This sounds like a damn crazy idea.
I love it nutty. I like it. Actually, I think it applies to the blockchain itself.
Kind of where the blockchain is the gold people, but the gold people would they
would make the decisions they'd be trained in philosophy at a young age, and they
could leave at any time, I think, and be part of the other groups that you could go
in one direction, but not the other. But I'm not actually sure if that's the right
because we have the revolving door problem.

1224
01:50:51,048 --> 01:51:18,648
And I think maybe it's not right. Maybe you could only move between gold and silver.
Silver is basically like the police. And they guard their jobs to guard the gold
people and enforce the laws as written. But it's kind of applies in the Supreme
Court a little bit to where they you know, lifetime appointment, whatever they say
goes, they're guarded, they get their stuff, but they don't. They can't like profit
immensely from their judgments or something.

1225
01:51:18,648 --> 01:51:43,648
I mean, I'm watching people in the channel, like, I think most people are fairly
aligned on some of this, but like, okay, so like, guess just dots here. And he says
that Chris wants to program young newcomers to cryptos his minds and like, no, guess
not. We want that's the thing we want to you do too. Like if we like if we all come
to like the idea, the idea isn't like the crystal rose wants this. The idea is that
we want to hear what it is.

1226
01:51:43,648 --> 01:52:01,968
It'll be very difficult, like if the time ever comes, or there's a conflict between
the communities, desires and your own, we would any rational person would expect you
to even if you didn't realize it, you would go with your own thing. And that's why
people are wary of putting anyone in a position of being like the speaker.

1227
01:52:01,968 --> 01:52:31,688
Absolutely. No, I completely agree. People don't appreciate it enough that that's
it's called poppers governance, ideal governance that that's it, you get to give it
a thumbs down, right? And that's why.

1228
01:52:32,128 --> 01:52:54,768
It's not the worst thing that Trump was elected at all. He, in fact, is very healthy
in a lot of ways. But the, the referendum is just what it really does. It's great,
because the election of Donald Trump gives us some, some expectation or some feeling
that the Democrats will bring a stronger game next time.

1229
01:52:54,768 --> 01:53:19,408
They'll bring us, they won't bring the stupid game. Well, we don't know how dumb,
you know, they might never, never, you know, you they can always be dumber than you
think. But, but we would hope that they, the new the next guy will be someone who
more convincingly cares about next candidate, be someone who more convincingly cares
about like real economic problems.

1230
01:53:19,408 --> 01:53:27,728
And the miracle of like the American government, in my mind, is that everyone
believes they have control. It's this illusion of control.

1231
01:53:27,728 --> 01:53:32,528
Well, I don't want to say that it's a mirror. I don't want to say it's like perfect
or whatever, you know, it's not, it has a lot of flaws.

1232
01:53:32,528 --> 01:53:37,808
Well, I agree. But if we could, if we could create the same illusion of control in
Bitcoin.

1233
01:53:38,368 --> 01:53:45,408
I've seen that, you know, we do that with technology, with the side chains. And
again, people have never, people always disagree.

1234
01:53:46,448 --> 01:53:52,688
And there will always be a fixed cost to change. So we'll not, we won't be able to
make every change.

1235
01:53:53,648 --> 01:54:00,608
So maybe the solution is to, is to enable Bitcoin playground that is the side chain
playground.

1236
01:54:00,608 --> 01:54:08,048
And through that playground, people can either, you know, at some level compete for
inclusion with the class of engineering.

1237
01:54:08,048 --> 01:54:13,648
Well, I think the fork futures idea is also one where, you know, it's reasonably
easy to set up.

1238
01:54:13,648 --> 01:54:19,648
I don't know who knows how many weird laws you're breaking, the CFTC or something,
because those laws are, you know, let's face it.

1239
01:54:19,728 --> 01:54:24,608
I have no idea how they intersect with the blockchain world at all.

1240
01:54:24,608 --> 01:54:32,208
Like where someone can just create futures contracts, you know, in an afternoon with
their C++ compiler.

1241
01:54:32,208 --> 01:54:38,928
But they are something where you can just, you can know what some people want this.

1242
01:54:38,928 --> 01:54:42,608
Some people want, oh, no, they do, they want proof of stake.

1243
01:54:42,608 --> 01:54:46,048
And then you find out, oh, no, no one wants that.

1244
01:54:46,048 --> 01:54:56,448
And then it's laughable because you have this, the stigma of this, of this, these
two prices, you know, you have the 85 and you have the 15 in the case of SegWit2x.

1245
01:54:56,448 --> 01:55:00,208
And that's it. That's what you got. And I believe those numbers.

1246
01:55:00,208 --> 01:55:10,288
And look, it's actually, isn't it shocking that Bitcoin Cash, I think, is trended in
between like 10 and 20% of the market cap of Bitcoin Core, kind of unexpected
outcome.

1247
01:55:10,288 --> 01:55:14,688
But it's tracked that 15% number very reliably.

1248
01:55:16,368 --> 01:55:21,648
And that's not a zero, but it's not 51 either. It's low.

1249
01:55:22,768 --> 01:55:24,208
Let me add it this way.

1250
01:55:24,208 --> 01:55:28,688
Do you believe that Bitcoin's ascendancy is guaranteed or not?

1251
01:55:29,248 --> 01:55:35,568
And if not, do we recognize that these strategies for organization are being done
with competing coins?

1252
01:55:35,568 --> 01:55:37,008
And is there room for that?

1253
01:55:37,008 --> 01:55:38,368
Yeah, OK, right.

1254
01:55:38,368 --> 01:55:41,808
I realize we're not really talking about what you're trying.

1255
01:55:41,808 --> 01:55:43,728
And I think what you're talking about is really important.

1256
01:55:43,728 --> 01:55:46,768
Like, so Bitcoin Core, is it guaranteed?

1257
01:55:46,768 --> 01:55:50,448
I think definitely no, nothing is really ever guaranteed.

1258
01:55:50,448 --> 01:55:55,568
But in particular, we have this situation where the dominance index is below 50%.

1259
01:55:56,288 --> 01:56:01,968
The others category, how can there be an unassailable network effect?

1260
01:56:01,968 --> 01:56:07,488
When look at the others category, it's gone from being nothing, slowly up.

1261
01:56:07,488 --> 01:56:10,688
People will say, oh, these are ICO projects that don't matter.

1262
01:56:12,608 --> 01:56:13,968
These projects are very small.

1263
01:56:13,968 --> 01:56:20,208
Like, it's not really driven by dumb projects that are zero, zero, zero, zero, zero,
zero, zero, zero percent.

1264
01:56:20,208 --> 01:56:26,928
This, the others category includes like real projects like Zcash or Zcoin, these
other weird stuff like that.

1265
01:56:26,928 --> 01:56:28,368
So that's, those are things.

1266
01:56:28,368 --> 01:56:33,568
Since it's long distributed, a lot of the dumb projects are just dust and they're
not picked up anywhere.

1267
01:56:33,568 --> 01:56:36,928
But the others is now the number two.

1268
01:56:36,928 --> 01:56:37,808
It's 20%.

1269
01:56:37,808 --> 01:56:38,848
It's more than Ethereum.

1270
01:56:38,848 --> 01:56:39,888
I don't actually know.

1271
01:56:39,888 --> 01:56:43,968
I checked it like last week and we've had a crazy couple of days, haven't we?

1272
01:56:43,968 --> 01:56:45,168
So I don't know where it is right now.

1273
01:56:45,808 --> 01:56:48,048
Ripple's up 12.6% in the last 24 hours.

1274
01:56:48,048 --> 01:56:49,568
But look at the dominance index.

1275
01:56:50,608 --> 01:56:51,488
Cardano's up 23%.

1276
01:56:51,968 --> 01:56:57,888
Look at the dominance index and look at where the others is and see if it's above.

1277
01:56:57,888 --> 01:57:00,128
You see, it's been above Ethereum for like the last,

1278
01:57:00,128 --> 01:57:03,008
consistently for like the last month or like last three months or so.

1279
01:57:03,648 --> 01:57:12,608
And so how can you, someone say we have an unassailable network effect when the
lowest group is consistently gaining over years,

1280
01:57:12,608 --> 01:57:16,528
over years and years, and the biggest group is plummeting.

1281
01:57:17,568 --> 01:57:19,408
And then we have the others, these other things.

1282
01:57:19,408 --> 01:57:24,208
We have the other nexus of Ethereum and Ripple show up and they have big chunks of
it.

1283
01:57:25,168 --> 01:57:30,208
Litecoin still has 4% somehow or whatever the percentage is.

1284
01:57:30,208 --> 01:57:30,768
I don't remember.

1285
01:57:31,168 --> 01:57:35,328
Bitcoin Cash has, maybe it was Bitcoin Cash has four and Litecoin has two or
something.

1286
01:57:35,328 --> 01:57:38,128
I can't remember the precise figures, but we don't see,

1287
01:57:39,728 --> 01:57:43,248
we see a world where people want to try out things in different blockchains and then
they,

1288
01:57:44,528 --> 01:57:48,288
well, that's weird that you say that you don't believe that core and cash compete,

1289
01:57:48,848 --> 01:57:53,808
but then you say you want to start up a, like a media empire.

1290
01:57:53,808 --> 01:57:55,728
That's like a rock type.

1291
01:57:56,688 --> 01:58:03,328
I want to, I want to expand the Overton window on, on this topic is really what I
want.

1292
01:58:04,048 --> 01:58:09,728
And I don't think, I don't think that Bitcoin Cash and core compete as much as,

1293
01:58:10,848 --> 01:58:12,528
you know, Bitcoin and Ethereum.

1294
01:58:12,528 --> 01:58:13,648
I think I agree with that.

1295
01:58:13,648 --> 01:58:14,688
Yeah, I think.

1296
01:58:14,688 --> 01:58:15,008
Yeah.

1297
01:58:15,008 --> 01:58:21,088
Because so in the issue, in the interest of like, you know, ecumenical Bitcoining,

1298
01:58:21,088 --> 01:58:27,168
I wouldn't mind seeing like a Bitcoin party or a pro Bitcoin organization.

1299
01:58:27,888 --> 01:58:31,648
I wouldn't mind that being a Bitcoin core thing or not.

1300
01:58:31,648 --> 01:58:35,088
But I think that has to be a function of a problem, right?

1301
01:58:35,808 --> 01:58:38,608
You have to have a problem first, like the block size debate,

1302
01:58:39,248 --> 01:58:41,328
and then there's two different takes on that.

1303
01:58:42,128 --> 01:58:45,968
So I think that's a weird way of putting it.

1304
01:58:45,968 --> 01:58:48,208
So I think you'd have to pick your problem first.

1305
01:58:48,768 --> 01:58:52,528
And then you have to not be afraid of once it's solved, shutting down the party.

1306
01:58:53,328 --> 01:58:54,528
Because people don't do that.

1307
01:58:54,528 --> 01:58:55,248
That's always the thing.

1308
01:58:55,248 --> 01:58:56,528
People never do that, right.

1309
01:58:56,528 --> 01:58:58,128
Because a lot of people are addicted.

1310
01:58:58,128 --> 01:58:59,328
They're addicted to the problem.

1311
01:58:59,328 --> 01:59:01,328
That's the, that's the problem of the SJWs.

1312
01:59:02,208 --> 01:59:02,848
Of course.

1313
01:59:02,848 --> 01:59:04,768
That they don't want the problem to really be solved,

1314
01:59:04,768 --> 01:59:07,408
because then how would they go to their charity gala?

1315
01:59:07,408 --> 01:59:09,168
Or what would they do with their, you know, time?

1316
01:59:09,888 --> 01:59:11,168
What's their identity at that point?

1317
01:59:11,168 --> 01:59:12,608
It's fighting this war.

1318
01:59:12,608 --> 01:59:16,608
And we have, I really think we have that in, in Bitcoin.

1319
01:59:16,608 --> 01:59:19,168
Do you think we, I think we absolutely have,

1320
01:59:19,808 --> 01:59:22,448
well, it's maybe only a sidechains type thing,

1321
01:59:22,448 --> 01:59:25,488
but I think that we have something like that going on right now.

1322
01:59:26,368 --> 01:59:27,088
People don't want.

1323
01:59:27,088 --> 01:59:29,888
We do have it in, in Bitcoin core.

1324
01:59:29,888 --> 01:59:30,208
Okay.

1325
01:59:30,208 --> 01:59:31,808
And I think it's great that we do.

1326
01:59:31,808 --> 01:59:35,328
It's, it's the, it's the willful and motivated ignorance in that,

1327
01:59:35,328 --> 01:59:38,208
like there is no party that I think is the bigger issue.

1328
01:59:38,208 --> 01:59:41,088
Because I believe that there is a party and I believe in the party.

1329
01:59:41,808 --> 01:59:44,128
And I know that the people of the party right now are saying,

1330
01:59:44,128 --> 01:59:45,008
shut the fuck up, Chris.

1331
01:59:45,008 --> 01:59:45,568
Right, exactly.

1332
01:59:45,568 --> 01:59:46,128
And you guys.

1333
01:59:46,128 --> 01:59:47,088
No, but it's funny, right?

1334
01:59:47,088 --> 01:59:48,928
You know, that's, that's kind of like we,

1335
01:59:48,928 --> 01:59:50,928
if you have two rooms, room A and room B,

1336
01:59:52,128 --> 01:59:55,008
the person walks into room A and you there, you have all,

1337
01:59:55,008 --> 01:59:57,008
you have signs, core and cash,

1338
01:59:57,728 --> 02:00:01,008
and you invite people in and they go to their right room

1339
02:00:01,008 --> 02:00:02,368
and then you take the labels off.

1340
02:00:02,368 --> 02:00:03,008
And then you have, you know,

1341
02:00:03,008 --> 02:00:04,928
the alien visit from outer space or something.

1342
02:00:04,928 --> 02:00:06,528
He goes into the first room.

1343
02:00:06,528 --> 02:00:07,808
Everyone in that room will say,

1344
02:00:09,888 --> 02:00:10,848
you know, they'll say like,

1345
02:00:10,848 --> 02:00:14,608
oh, we have the real, you know,

1346
02:00:14,608 --> 02:00:17,168
we don't listen to those other people.

1347
02:00:17,168 --> 02:00:17,648
We're right.

1348
02:00:17,648 --> 02:00:21,728
There is only, there's only one valid point of view and it's ours.

1349
02:00:22,368 --> 02:00:23,648
And then they'll even go in the other room

1350
02:00:23,648 --> 02:00:25,488
and then they'll hear exactly the same thing,

1351
02:00:25,488 --> 02:00:27,248
just with the words switched around.

1352
02:00:29,248 --> 02:00:29,568
All right.

1353
02:00:29,568 --> 02:00:30,688
I got to piss like a racehorse.

1354
02:00:30,688 --> 02:00:31,808
I say we wrap this episode up.

1355
02:00:31,808 --> 02:00:33,008
We talked about a bunch of stuff,

1356
02:00:33,008 --> 02:00:36,048
super political today, but I appreciate it.

1357
02:00:36,048 --> 02:00:37,008
You're great, Paul.

1358
02:00:37,008 --> 02:00:37,888
Well, you know, I happen to be.

1359
02:00:37,888 --> 02:00:39,408
Where can people find out more about you?

1360
02:00:39,408 --> 02:00:39,968
I don't know.

1361
02:00:39,968 --> 02:00:40,688
Nowhere.

1362
02:00:40,688 --> 02:00:42,128
Follow me on Twitter.

1363
02:00:42,208 --> 02:00:45,088
Truthcoin, T-R-U-T-H.

1364
02:00:45,088 --> 02:00:47,248
That's not, I always hate giving that up, you know,

1365
02:00:47,248 --> 02:00:49,808
because it always seems like I'm trying to claim a monopoly on truth,

1366
02:00:50,528 --> 02:00:51,088
but it's not.

1367
02:00:51,088 --> 02:00:52,448
It's just my projects.

1368
02:00:52,448 --> 02:00:54,688
It's my white paper's title.

1369
02:00:54,688 --> 02:00:56,288
Well, you're our spiritual leader, Paul.

1370
02:00:56,288 --> 02:00:57,248
Spiritual leader.

1371
02:00:57,248 --> 02:01:00,208
And I can change it, but no one can spell my last name.

1372
02:01:00,208 --> 02:01:01,168
So what am I supposed to do?

1373
02:01:01,968 --> 02:01:03,728
I guess I could change to Paul Sports if that,

1374
02:01:03,728 --> 02:01:04,368
I didn't think of that,

1375
02:01:04,368 --> 02:01:07,088
but I think someone has, I think someone has taken that actually.

1376
02:01:08,288 --> 02:01:11,008
Can you, I don't think you can copy, right?

1377
02:01:11,008 --> 02:01:12,448
So we'll have to see about that.

1378
02:01:12,448 --> 02:01:13,968
Maybe it'll be Paul Sports, BTC.

1379
02:01:13,968 --> 02:01:17,568
I'm sure everyone's going to, everyone's going to claim a billion of those,

1380
02:01:17,568 --> 02:01:19,088
but if they watch this video.

1381
02:01:20,928 --> 02:01:22,768
All right, Paul, I gotta pee.

1382
02:01:22,768 --> 02:01:23,728
Okay, it's been fun.

1383
02:01:24,368 --> 02:01:29,408
Guys, if you, if you found this outrageous, outrageous,

1384
02:01:29,408 --> 02:01:32,608
leave your comments below, tell everybody,

1385
02:01:32,608 --> 02:01:34,608
or if you liked them, if you liked the video,

1386
02:01:34,608 --> 02:01:35,968
you can tell me that too.

1387
02:01:35,968 --> 02:01:39,248
You know, the truth is that I come from an era

1388
02:01:39,248 --> 02:01:43,888
where exploring ideas in and of itself was worth doing for that reason alone.

1389
02:01:44,448 --> 02:01:48,368
And now the hoi polloi is making that a difficult thing.

1390
02:01:48,368 --> 02:01:52,528
And it's just not, it's not exactly the way things once were.

1391
02:01:52,528 --> 02:01:54,368
And maybe, maybe I'm the problem.

1392
02:01:54,368 --> 02:01:58,128
I get that, but I don't know.

1393
02:01:58,128 --> 02:01:59,328
I think there's a time and place for it.

1394
02:02:00,288 --> 02:02:01,488
Do you think there's a time and place for it, Paul?

1395
02:02:02,128 --> 02:02:03,328
Time and place for what?

1396
02:02:03,328 --> 02:02:07,488
Discovering that doing science and deleting errors from your ideas

1397
02:02:07,488 --> 02:02:09,408
and making your map of the world more accurate?

1398
02:02:09,408 --> 02:02:09,728
Yes.

1399
02:02:09,728 --> 02:02:10,848
What else would you do with your time?

1400
02:02:10,848 --> 02:02:11,088
Okay.

1401
02:02:11,968 --> 02:02:12,448
I don't know.

1402
02:02:12,448 --> 02:02:13,408
Promote, promote politics.

1403
02:02:13,408 --> 02:02:14,528
I know, but for what purpose?

1404
02:02:14,528 --> 02:02:16,768
Like, it doesn't matter, right?

1405
02:02:17,968 --> 02:02:19,488
And Plato was right.

1406
02:02:19,488 --> 02:02:22,128
The life of the mind is the only,

1407
02:02:23,648 --> 02:02:25,328
the only good is knowledge of the truth.

1408
02:02:26,688 --> 02:02:27,488
I like that.

1409
02:02:27,488 --> 02:02:28,048
He is right.

1410
02:02:28,048 --> 02:02:29,008
He is right.

1411
02:02:29,008 --> 02:02:29,808
Thanks for coming on.

1412
02:02:30,368 --> 02:02:31,008
All right, guys.

1413
02:02:31,008 --> 02:02:31,648
I'll see you later.

1414
02:02:31,648 --> 02:02:33,568
I got, oh, you know who I got coming on Friday?

1415
02:02:33,568 --> 02:02:34,128
You'll like this.

1416
02:02:35,248 --> 02:02:35,808
Robin Hanson.

1417
02:02:35,808 --> 02:02:36,288
Oh my God.

1418
02:02:36,368 --> 02:02:38,288
Are you seriously getting him to come on your show?

1419
02:02:38,288 --> 02:02:39,168
Oh my God.

1420
02:02:39,168 --> 02:02:39,408
Yep.

1421
02:02:39,408 --> 02:02:40,288
He comes out on Friday.

1422
02:02:41,568 --> 02:02:43,808
If you have any questions for him, why don't you let me know what they are?

1423
02:02:43,808 --> 02:02:45,648
And I'll probably be able to fit those in.

1424
02:02:45,648 --> 02:02:47,888
I've been reading his blog for like 12 years or whatever.

1425
02:02:48,688 --> 02:02:49,008
All right.

1426
02:02:49,008 --> 02:02:50,928
I got to start reading that now.

1427
02:02:50,928 --> 02:02:52,048
I know him very well.

1428
02:02:52,048 --> 02:02:52,528
Oh my God.

1429
02:02:52,528 --> 02:02:53,408
I don't even know.

1430
02:02:53,408 --> 02:02:56,768
I don't know if I should warn him or you about what you're going to get into.

1431
02:02:58,688 --> 02:02:58,928
Okay.

1432
02:02:58,928 --> 02:02:59,328
That's great.

1433
02:02:59,328 --> 02:03:03,648
I'm glad we didn't talk about, I'm glad we didn't talk too much about motivated
ignorance

1434
02:03:03,648 --> 02:03:04,848
because you can talk about it with him.

1435
02:03:05,648 --> 02:03:06,768
He's the maestro.

1436
02:03:06,768 --> 02:03:07,008
So.

1437
02:03:07,568 --> 02:03:07,968
Wonderful.

1438
02:03:07,968 --> 02:03:08,848
I look forward to that.

1439
02:03:08,848 --> 02:03:09,248
Great.

1440
02:03:09,248 --> 02:03:09,488
Great.

1441
02:03:10,208 --> 02:03:11,248
Peace out party people.

1442
02:03:11,248 --> 02:03:11,568
Okay.