1
00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:36,000
So this is a situation where there's five or so thousand coins. The coins circulate
at an enormous rate.

2
00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,000
So they have a high velocity and have a high turnover.

3
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:48,000
And they're paying lots and lots of transaction fees, maybe 10 cents each time, but
many, many times.

4
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:55,000
And then this is a situation where the math is very clear that a chain like that
would have a lot of security.

5
00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:04,000
So you can see how even this – what I'm saying, 99.99% of all mining revenue is
coming from these large transaction chains.

6
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:10,000
But not necessarily – there wouldn't necessarily even be one million coins on all of
them total.

7
00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:20,000
So out of the 21 million, there would only be – one twentieth would be on the
transacting L2s because you have a situation where they turn over rapidly.

8
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:25,000
But yeah, it is possible.

9
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:29,000
But that's the thing. The good thing is all your coins start on L1.

10
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,000
So it's your choice if you want to venture onto the L2 or not.

11
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:42,000
The proper comparison is to say basically what the sidechain L2s are supposed to be
is a replacement for altcoins.

12
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:50,000
So it's like if you have to use Monero or something to do a transaction, now instead
you just have to go onto the privacy L2.

13
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:57,000
So yeah, could Monero collapse the altcoin? It could.

14
00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:00,000
And could the Drivechain L2 collapse? Yeah, they could.

15
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:06,000
I appreciate the honesty. You didn't say, well, that's impossible.

16
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:10,000
We're going to see how the market reacts to this new reality.

17
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:17,000
But I think there's an elephant in the room and I need to backtrack because we
haven't mentioned the name of this hard fork.

18
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:24,000
Yes. Unlike Bitcoin Cash, I picked a completely different name.

19
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,000
I think this is much better for everyone.

20
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:31,000
The name is eCash and the project is on eCash.com.

21
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,000
So it's a cool domain.

22
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,000
And again, I'm giving people advance warning.

23
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:41,000
Four months of advance warning, whereas Bitcoin Cash, you kind of got negative three
months.

24
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:47,000
And we're also replaying all the transactions and it's a sustainable fix.

25
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:51,000
So Bitcoin Cash did one megabyte to eight megabytes.

26
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,000
But then it was kind of like unclear what would happen then.

27
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,000
They'd have to keep changing things.

28
00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:02,000
Or if eight was the magic number, then maybe BTC could have just copied that eight.

29
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,000
At a later time.

30
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,000
And so those are some of the differences.

31
00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,000
There's more about it.

32
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,000
Yeah, the name is eCash.

33
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:16,000
Okay, so in nine years, we went from Bcash to eCash.

34
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,000
Like the memes are going to write themselves.

35
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,000
Well, yeah, I suppose so.

36
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:28,000
I think you're the first big Bitcoin developer to hard fork since Samari.

37
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:29,000
So it's been nine years.

38
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:33,000
Nobody had the courage to say, okay, screw you guys.

39
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,000
I'm going to try this idea on my own.

40
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:41,000
Would you say that eCash, which I think is a name that carries a lot of history with
it.

41
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,000
So it's a bold choice.

42
00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,000
You own the .com domain.

43
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,000
There's also an altcoin that uses the name eCash.

44
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,000
There is, of course, David Chaum historic project.

45
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:58,000
There's also the custodial lightning thing, which people are using at Nostr.

46
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,000
Where was I going with this?

47
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:07,000
Oh, yeah, you're the first big developer since Samari to do something like this.

48
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:17,000
And the respectable part is that you're not trying to say that this is Bitcoin or
this is the true Bitcoin or the real vision or Satoshi's vision or whatever that
means.

49
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:25,000
You're just saying you're a developer who has been around for, as you said, 15 years
or longer.

50
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,000
And you've been trying to get this idea across.

51
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,000
You even have a section on your website, which I think is interesting.

52
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:39,000
You say that in the event that Bitcoin activates BIP300, you're going to give up on
eCash.

53
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:45,000
Which makes me wonder, is this like a ransom or a blackmail towards Bitcoin Core
developers?

54
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,000
Well, I don't know about that.

55
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:50,000
I don't think so.

56
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:51,000
It could be.

57
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,000
It would be interesting to think about that.

58
00:16:54,000 --> 00:17:03,000
But I think I've had this idea for a very long time.

59
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:08,000
And it's sort of like I think a lot of things in Bitcoin have been getting worse
each year.

60
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:14,000
So, yeah, but it's interesting that everyone who has tried this idea has failed.

61
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:15,000
But I think so.

62
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:21,000
Like, for example, I think Bitcoin Cash actually failed at the hard fork.

63
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,000
By this idea and failed, do you mean hard forking or Drivechains?

64
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,000
Because it's an important distinction.

65
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:28,000
Yeah.

66
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:33,000
Everyone who has tried the hard fork has failed to overtake Bitcoin with it.

67
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,000
But I think really the hard fork isn't that bad at all.

68
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,000
It's just everyone gets free money.

69
00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:40,000
And so.

70
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:48,000
Guys like Adam Bak will say that this is monetary inflation that gets added on top
of the 21 million.

71
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:56,000
I think there's some part of that that's true, but there's an equal part that would
say.

72
00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:07,000
That if what people are saying is that, you know, you have to claim like is Bitcoin
BTC, is it perfect?

73
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:14,000
You know, is it totally without any laws or anything?

74
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,000
There's nothing improvable about it.

75
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:21,000
If so, then there's no reason for any other going to exist.

76
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:32,000
And that's kind of what I was getting at on the site, which is to say, if BIP300
activates on BTC, it will be difficult for this project, you know, be difficult for
eCash to even succeed.

77
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,000
But it would have to be a little bit more than that.

78
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,000
You know, I think merely activating BIP300 is not enough.

79
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:43,000
It would have to be like a big cultural revolution in BTC where people say.

80
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:48,000
Lightning was a mistake and it doesn't work and we should do more soft forks.

81
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,000
Soft fork is safe and.

82
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,000
So it would have to be like a huge.

83
00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:01,000
Everyone have to come around to my way of thinking on a lot of different things for
it to be possible.

84
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:12,000
Like so even like are we going to use Bitwindow as the front end to Bitcoin Core or,
you know, are we going to use still the Bitcoin Core software?

85
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,000
And then even people today, they don't even use like the Bitcoin Core wallet.

86
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,000
It doesn't have, you know, BIP39.

87
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,000
It doesn't have like a 12 word backup.

88
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:21,000
So.

89
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:27,000
These are tiny details, but I'm just saying like just activating BIP300 is not
enough.

90
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:32,000
Like the miners would have to understand like how to use BIP300 and they have to be
excited about it.

91
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,000
And I don't think these things are going to happen anytime soon.

92
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,000
Unfortunately for Bitcoin, but fortunately for eCash.

93
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:49,000
Right, so the goal of this interview is to announce that you're launching eCash.

94
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,000
Is this also the moment when you exit Bitcoin or are you going to be around?

95
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:59,000
No, I mean, well, that's, I guess, up to other people if they still invite me to
various parties or whatever.

96
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:05,000
But I don't think that people should necessarily sell their BTC in the hard fork.

97
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,000
You should mostly just keep both.

98
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,000
Most people should keep both coins in a hard fork.

99
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,000
Because it takes a lot of specialized knowledge.

100
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:24,000
You know, I think definitely, you know, the older project has a huge advantage out
of the gate.

101
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,000
Yeah, I was thinking, are you like a Vitalik now?

102
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:35,000
Are you going to be hard to approach and you're only going to show up within your
own cult?

103
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:44,000
Or would you be willing, if you get invited to Bitcoin events, to mingle, to talk
about your experiences, to share some ideas?

104
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,000
Maybe tell people that they were wrong in their perception.

105
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:58,000
Because something that we did not mention, and I think it's important to say, is
that eCash is going to be mined with SHA-256-A6.

106
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:06,000
Which means it's competing directly with Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash and BSV and
whatever else for hash rate.

107
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,000
There will be miners that decide to mine this if it's more profitable.

108
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:17,000
And if there's a lot of activity on the layer twos, then it might just be they're
going to be collecting more fees.

109
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:22,000
And the bigger question is, how are miners going to act?

110
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:27,000
Like, are they going to be honest because they make a very good income from this?

111
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,000
Or are they going to try to steal?

112
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:36,000
That's what Matt Corello has been saying for a long time, that this leads to MEV,
that miners are going to steal.

113
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,000
Yeah, I don't think any of that is true, though.

114
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,000
I mean, you can look at the miners.

115
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,000
Yeah, but now you get to prove it. That's what I'm saying.

116
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:43,000
Right, yeah.

117
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:50,000
The miners have never really done anything bad in all of Bitcoin's history, to
anyone.

118
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,000
Even to Bitcoin SV, which everyone hated.

119
00:21:55,000 --> 00:22:07,000
You didn't even have SHA-256 miners attacking Bitcoin SV when they had like less than
one twentieth or less than one percent, less than half a percent of the hash rate.

120
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,000
So, yeah, I don't know.

121
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:16,000
But I think it's good. It's, you know, Cypherpunk engineers job to be paranoid, I
suppose.

122
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:24,000
I think the bigger problem is, like, where do we go from here in BTC world?

123
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,000
Like, there's no, there's very few users.

124
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,000
The transaction fees are low.

125
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:35,000
This is indicating that there's low demand.

126
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:44,000
A lot of the users, like the original, like, OG adopting kind of like dark market
users have switched to Monero.

127
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:49,000
And then other people have switched to, like, people who want to just, like, play
around and have fun.

128
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:55,000
They have switched to, like, Solana and even Ethereum.

129
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,000
So we have very, very low users.

130
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,000
The mining, there's no mining revenue.

131
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:07,000
The miners are all going bankrupt or pivoting to AI data centers.

132
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,000
A lot of stuff isn't even described as mining anymore.

133
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:15,000
The mining stage is now the energy stage, et cetera, et cetera.

134
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,000
We really can't do any good development in Bitcoin.

135
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:22,000
So even among developers, we can't get anything done.

136
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:38,000
So we can't even get, like, a completely optional opt-in, ignorable and reversible
soft fork such as OP_CAT that was in the old client.

137
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,000
It's only 13 lines of code.

138
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:44,000
It was in the original Satoshi client for more than a year.

139
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,000
We can't even get that back in.

140
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,000
And no one seems to know why exactly.

141
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:57,000
It's prestigious to propose new big things, but no one can get anything practical
done.

142
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:01,000
In practice, all of the lightning usage is custodial.

143
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:06,000
So it's all back to client server and you don't even have your own keys.

144
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,000
None of the channels are actually used.

145
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:14,000
I think even in the investing world, like, the price has been mostly flat over.

146
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:21,000
It has gone up over the last five or six years.

147
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,000
But it really hasn't.

148
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,000
I don't think, you know, just where do we go from here?

149
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,000
I don't think that, you know, Bitcoin will not continue to do, like, 10x, et cetera,
10x, et cetera.

150
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:36,000
So first of all, there's a ceiling in the price, which is that they can't go.

151
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:42,000
Even if you were to take over the whole world, it would hit maybe like $25 million
per coin.

152
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,000
So that's pretty good.

153
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,000
But the problem is think about all the people who are going to do that.

154
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:53,000
Think about the last guy to adopt Bitcoin or the last billion people to adopt it.

155
00:24:53,000 --> 00:25:00,000
That will be like, you know, it'll be going from $24 million per coin to $25 million
per coin.

156
00:25:00,528 --> 00:25:04,528
Those people cannot, you know, they're not going to get a big ROI at the end.

157
00:25:04,528 --> 00:25:10,528
So that the final step has to just be people who are adopting it just to use it.

158
00:25:10,528 --> 00:25:16,528
So if you don't have that piece, then the whole thing does become a Ponzi scheme.

159
00:25:16,528 --> 00:25:22,528
Yeah, I think that's what you call the final rotation in your articles.

160
00:25:23,528 --> 00:25:28,528
I get your point, and I think there's a lot of value in experimentation.

161
00:25:28,528 --> 00:25:34,528
And I also don't understand quite why Drivechains were never tried.

162
00:25:34,528 --> 00:25:38,528
You're in conversation with the Litecoin people.

163
00:25:38,528 --> 00:25:44,528
At some point in 2022, it seemed like Drivechains were going to be the next soft
fork for a few months.

164
00:25:44,528 --> 00:25:51,528
It was like the talk that everyone was bringing to conferences, and then it sort of
lost its steam.

165
00:25:51,528 --> 00:25:54,528
I still don't understand why.

166
00:25:54,528 --> 00:26:05,528
You even had at some point on your website a section where you had the opinions of
core developers and whether or not they like BIP300.

167
00:26:05,528 --> 00:26:11,528
And it was very hard to find disagreements even at the time.

168
00:26:11,528 --> 00:26:16,528
Like maybe there are free people in the world who don't agree with this.

169
00:26:16,528 --> 00:26:19,528
And it's a soft fork. It's not a hard fork.

170
00:26:19,528 --> 00:26:30,528
It's weird that the same unanimity argument that was being used against Bitcoin XT
by Teimos in 2014-15,

171
00:26:30,528 --> 00:26:39,528
that you need everyone to agree, and if there's one person who objects, then it's
not happening, is being used for soft forks.

172
00:26:40,528 --> 00:26:45,528
It's very easy to find a person who disagrees.

173
00:26:45,528 --> 00:26:51,528
Usually, if they don't know anything about what they're talking about, it's easy to
find it.

174
00:26:51,528 --> 00:26:55,528
So I think – yeah, I don't know.

175
00:26:55,528 --> 00:27:05,528
So the issue is you have to do this pull request through Bitcoin Core, and then
meanwhile, they're changing their software all the time.

176
00:27:05,528 --> 00:27:11,528
So you kind of have this rebase problem, and you have to put a bunch of effort in,
and then you become vulnerable

177
00:27:11,528 --> 00:27:18,528
because you've put months of effort into the pull request to the latest version
while they're changing the version.

178
00:27:19,528 --> 00:27:31,528
And then if they don't – it's just like you have basically a hierarchy where some
people are responsible for merging the changes,

179
00:27:31,528 --> 00:27:34,528
and they kind of run things however they want to run them.

180
00:27:34,528 --> 00:27:41,528
And Bitcoin Core is run in a way that stuff has to not be controversial.

181
00:27:41,528 --> 00:27:44,528
So that's what they've decided.

182
00:27:44,528 --> 00:27:51,528
I think that's ultimately itself going to be a very controversial decision because
it's just not –

183
00:27:51,528 --> 00:27:57,528
an organization that never does anything controversial is probably doomed, and
that's kind of my point.

184
00:27:58,528 --> 00:28:01,528
But a lot of people sort of seem to like this type of thing.

185
00:28:01,528 --> 00:28:07,528
They seem to like the gridlock, but I think that's just because they have no idea
what they are missing out on.

186
00:28:07,528 --> 00:28:17,528
And they also don't understand how competitive the software world can be.

187
00:28:18,528 --> 00:28:21,528
No, but they dismiss the software part outright.

188
00:28:21,528 --> 00:28:29,528
They say it's only about the store of value thing, or it's about the community, and
it's about the immaculate conception.

189
00:28:29,528 --> 00:28:33,528
And they're going to find something that Bitcoin has and something else cannot.

190
00:28:34,528 --> 00:28:42,528
But I think we have been talking about stuff that is important, but at the same time
not the most controversial.

191
00:28:42,528 --> 00:28:43,528
At least not yet.

192
00:28:43,528 --> 00:28:45,528
Like, you're hard-working.

193
00:28:45,528 --> 00:28:51,528
Maybe some people will disagree with the approach, but if I was in your position, I
would have done this like five years ago or something.

194
00:28:51,528 --> 00:28:57,528
Because, you know, it gets frustrating after a while.

195
00:28:58,528 --> 00:29:02,528
But before we get to the most controversial part, I gotta ask you two things.

196
00:29:03,528 --> 00:29:09,528
The first one is, do you see eCash as being like the chain that welcomes the
builders?

197
00:29:10,528 --> 00:29:14,528
Because I think my job as a podcaster is to interview a lot of builders.

198
00:29:15,528 --> 00:29:24,528
And if you just go through the backlog or the catalog of my work, you're going to
realize that I interview a lot of frustrated guys.

199
00:29:24,528 --> 00:29:28,528
Who are like, just this one software, please, just let me get to work.

200
00:29:28,528 --> 00:29:31,528
And do you think that these guys can come build on eCash?

201
00:29:33,528 --> 00:29:36,528
Yeah, there are many stories.

202
00:29:36,528 --> 00:29:43,528
In fact, just about all of the big altcoins, there's a story where the person tried
to do it on Bitcoin for years.

203
00:29:44,528 --> 00:29:47,528
So obviously for Ethereum, that was the case.

204
00:29:47,528 --> 00:29:52,528
Vitalik, he was an employee of eWork, he helped create Bitcoin Magazine.

205
00:29:52,528 --> 00:29:54,528
He was like a Bitcoiner.

206
00:29:54,528 --> 00:29:56,528
He tried to do Ethereum on Bitcoin.

207
00:29:56,528 --> 00:29:59,528
He still is, I interviewed him last year, he said he still uses Bitcoin.

208
00:29:59,528 --> 00:30:03,528
So it's not like just because he started something else, he...

209
00:30:03,528 --> 00:30:09,528
But I'm saying even the Ethereum idea itself, he tried to do on Bitcoin first.

210
00:30:10,528 --> 00:30:14,528
And same thing for when they tried to start Namecoin.

211
00:30:15,528 --> 00:30:23,528
Same thing for when David Vork's project, SiaCoin, same thing for...

212
00:30:25,528 --> 00:30:39,528
I'm pretty sure just about every successful altcoin, obviously Bitcoin Cash, Roger
Ver, and the other large blockers campaigned relentlessly to get the large block
size that they wanted.

213
00:30:39,528 --> 00:30:47,528
So they tried to do the thing on BTC, but then they could not, is my point.

214
00:30:47,528 --> 00:30:53,528
So this gives people exactly what they need, which is the opportunity just gets out
of the way.

215
00:30:53,528 --> 00:30:58,528
And it says you can have total autonomy over your own project, and it will use real
Bitcoin.

216
00:30:58,528 --> 00:31:02,528
And you are accountable to the actual users.

217
00:31:03,528 --> 00:31:10,528
Because if you do a good job of pleasing the users and they pay a lot of transaction
fees, then the chain will be a success.

218
00:31:12,528 --> 00:31:13,528
So I think that they will, yes.

219
00:31:13,528 --> 00:31:23,528
And I think people actually, whenever anyone does any kind of altcoin, a lot of the
people who become altcoiners do it with a kind of sense of resignation.

220
00:31:23,528 --> 00:31:28,528
And they're very upset about what they were forced to do.

221
00:31:29,528 --> 00:31:39,528
I was going to mention the fact that the previous time when you were on the show, I
told you that almost everyone in Bitcoin was wrong about Ethereum.

222
00:31:39,528 --> 00:31:47,528
And you told me that everyone expected Ethereum to roll the dice and get a dice from
1 to 5, but they rolled a 6.

223
00:31:47,528 --> 00:31:54,528
And I think the reason why they rolled a 6 is not because Ethereum was so excellent,
because they did have their early issues.

224
00:31:54,528 --> 00:32:05,528
And to be honest, it was not much better than, let's say, what was the other big one
that was competing against it and was proof of stake.

225
00:32:05,528 --> 00:32:07,528
I'm going to remember it later.

226
00:32:07,528 --> 00:32:11,528
So maybe it wasn't better than MasterCoin or Counterparty out of the gate.

227
00:32:11,528 --> 00:32:13,528
BitShares, maybe?

228
00:32:13,528 --> 00:32:15,528
Yeah, that was also around that time.

229
00:32:15,528 --> 00:32:17,528
MXT.

230
00:32:17,528 --> 00:32:19,528
BitShares.

231
00:32:19,528 --> 00:32:21,528
And...

232
00:32:21,528 --> 00:32:23,528
Huh.

233
00:32:23,528 --> 00:32:31,528
Anyway, maybe it wasn't the best implementation of Bitcoin 2.0, because that's what
it was called at the time.

234
00:32:31,528 --> 00:32:36,528
But it was the block size wars that propped it up, essentially.

235
00:32:36,528 --> 00:32:41,528
Because some people gave up on Bitcoin around the time in 2017.

236
00:32:41,528 --> 00:32:50,528
And they said, wait up, just give me a second, I can build the same thing on
Ethereum and just add some extra layers of complexity on top of it.

237
00:32:50,528 --> 00:32:56,528
Which maybe is not the most elegant way to do it, but it captures the imagination of
builders.

238
00:32:56,528 --> 00:33:01,528
I think if it wasn't for the block size wars, Ethereum would not be the second
biggest chain.

239
00:33:01,528 --> 00:33:15,528
So it was also the context of when it was around and what was happening that propped
it and brought it to the second place to make it like, I guess it's like the 10% of
the crypto market coin today.

240
00:33:15,528 --> 00:33:17,528
Which is kind of huge.

241
00:33:18,528 --> 00:33:26,528
And I also think that in some respects you are late with launching eCash.

242
00:33:26,528 --> 00:33:35,528
Because you've had this idea for a decade, and you've refined it, you've polished
it, and you've hoped all this time that Bitcoin is going to care.

243
00:33:35,528 --> 00:33:46,528
But I think it's also the right time, because once again, I don't think I've seen so
many frustrated developers in any industry ever.

244
00:33:46,528 --> 00:33:53,528
You can basically attract all of this energy and all of this creativity that was
supposed to be happening on Bitcoin.

245
00:33:53,528 --> 00:33:57,528
And get them to build on eCash so that they can prove their tech.

246
00:33:57,528 --> 00:34:00,528
Maybe Bitcoin will care, maybe that Bitcoin will not care.

247
00:34:00,528 --> 00:34:02,528
But we're going to see how this plays out.

248
00:34:02,528 --> 00:34:09,528
But it's good to have these sandboxes where people can just build without worrying
or asking for permission.

249
00:34:10,528 --> 00:34:21,528
Yeah, we're in a very curious situation where a developer wants to write some
software, and a user wants to use the software.

250
00:34:21,528 --> 00:34:30,528
And they're willing to pay a transaction fee for that software, to use the software
per transaction.

251
00:34:31,528 --> 00:34:39,528
And a different miner is willing to collect that transaction fee and mine that
transaction.

252
00:34:39,528 --> 00:34:47,528
So all these people want something, but we're not having it.

253
00:34:47,528 --> 00:34:52,528
So that's the bizarre situation that we're in in BTC.

254
00:34:53,528 --> 00:35:04,528
And instead, not only developers are frustrated, but what is the usage, the on-chain
usage of BTC?

255
00:35:04,528 --> 00:35:08,528
And the miners are not staying loyal to BTC.

256
00:35:08,528 --> 00:35:11,528
They're jumping ship to AI data centers.

257
00:35:11,528 --> 00:35:14,528
So you can look at Marathon.

258
00:35:16,528 --> 00:35:21,528
Marathon removed all references to Bitcoin from their webpage two years ago.

259
00:35:22,528 --> 00:35:25,528
The miner magazines changed to EnergyMag.

260
00:35:25,528 --> 00:35:27,528
Everything is just changing to energy.

261
00:35:27,528 --> 00:35:31,528
At the Bitcoin conference, the mining stage has changed to the energy stage.

262
00:35:36,528 --> 00:35:38,528
It's like, where do we go from here?

263
00:35:38,528 --> 00:35:45,528
A lot of people think, oh, what we need is to just have more treasury companies, get
more people to buy Bitcoin.

264
00:35:47,528 --> 00:35:49,528
But how does that even help anything?

265
00:35:49,528 --> 00:35:52,528
Everyone who buys Bitcoin, someone else had to sell it to them.

266
00:35:52,528 --> 00:35:55,528
So I don't think that's going to help.

267
00:35:59,528 --> 00:36:04,528
I also noticed that Michael Saylor has been buying large chunks of Bitcoin lately.

268
00:36:04,528 --> 00:36:10,528
But the market doesn't care anymore and hasn't cared in maybe a year or longer.

269
00:36:10,528 --> 00:36:13,528
I'm bad with keeping track of time.

270
00:36:13,528 --> 00:36:17,528
But whenever he buys, he creates a larger point of failure.

271
00:36:17,528 --> 00:36:23,528
Because eventually his stretch or whatever, STRC Ponzi is going to implode.

272
00:36:23,528 --> 00:36:29,528
And he's going to have to sell Bitcoin to covered losses, to payback investors or
whatever.

273
00:36:29,528 --> 00:36:33,528
And it's going to be bad for the market.

274
00:36:33,528 --> 00:36:38,528
So we have to understand it's a terrible point of failure.

275
00:36:38,528 --> 00:36:45,528
Which makes me ask, since everyone is able to claim their coins one-to-one on the
eCash chain.

276
00:36:45,528 --> 00:36:51,528
Aren't you concerned that this is going to be basically something that happens
within the first week?

277
00:36:51,528 --> 00:36:59,528
That Saylor and BlackRock and all of these institutions are going to claim their
eCash and dump it on the market to buy more Bitcoin?

278
00:36:59,528 --> 00:37:04,528
Well, I think they certainly can if they want.

279
00:37:04,528 --> 00:37:07,528
I don't really see that as a big problem.

280
00:37:07,528 --> 00:37:16,528
If you think about it, there's no – why should anyone – first of all, who are they
selling it to?

281
00:37:16,528 --> 00:37:19,528
If they're selling it, someone else is buying it.

282
00:37:19,528 --> 00:37:21,528
So maybe at a very low price.

283
00:37:21,528 --> 00:37:24,528
But it's a good thing.

284
00:37:24,528 --> 00:37:28,528
In general, network effects are very strong and you want it to be a popularity
contest.

285
00:37:28,528 --> 00:37:34,528
And you don't want a lot of people to think, oh, this project isn't very good.

286
00:37:35,528 --> 00:37:45,528
But each of these people is going to have to sit down and really think about how can
they get more money by keeping the eCash or by selling it.

287
00:37:45,528 --> 00:37:48,528
And if they sell it, they'll sell it to someone who thinks the reverse.

288
00:37:48,528 --> 00:37:58,528
And I think this project is not going to win by being continuously more popular than
Bitcoin at all points in time.

289
00:37:58,528 --> 00:38:00,528
I don't think that's happening.

290
00:38:00,528 --> 00:38:13,528
But what this project offers is a way to get all – get more users transacting and to
get more transaction fees collected.

291
00:38:13,528 --> 00:38:28,528
And then ultimately get much more mining revenues and more proof of work, ultimately
obtaining a huge share or maybe even 99 percent of the cash revenue.

292
00:38:28,528 --> 00:38:33,528
And so in that way, this would be the only sustainable project in the long run.

293
00:38:35,528 --> 00:38:38,528
Do you think that you're opening up the floodgates?

294
00:38:38,528 --> 00:38:50,528
Because I tweeted this that basically Bitcoin is valuable right now or so valuable
because you have all of these tribes, small communities that live inside of their
own echo chambers.

295
00:38:50,528 --> 00:38:56,528
You have the libertarians and cypherpunks who are happy to transact without asking
for permission.

296
00:38:56,528 --> 00:39:02,528
You have the Austrian economists who care about the 21 million limit and the
scarcity.

297
00:39:02,528 --> 00:39:09,528
You have the institutions that really like the idea that they can collateralize
Bitcoin to borrow dollars against it.

298
00:39:09,528 --> 00:39:11,528
Also the DeFi people.

299
00:39:11,528 --> 00:39:18,528
You have the ordinals people who are putting their art on the blockchain because the
block space is also scarce.

300
00:39:18,528 --> 00:39:30,528
You have the BitVM people who are finding hacky ways to put stuff on Bitcoin that
nobody really asked for but at the same time is interesting.

301
00:39:30,528 --> 00:39:39,528
You have a lot of these small tribes and I think that the value of Bitcoin is the
sum of all of these parts.

302
00:39:40,528 --> 00:39:45,528
And when you have small parts exiting and deciding that they want to create their
own chain as is your case.

303
00:39:45,528 --> 00:39:52,528
Maybe that there are currently Bitcoin investors who are hoping that Bitcoin is
going to get BIP300.

304
00:39:52,528 --> 00:39:59,528
They're going to be listening to this interview or another one or reading what's on
the eCash website which is eCash.com.

305
00:39:59,528 --> 00:40:03,528
They're going to say well it seems like this is not going to happen anymore.

306
00:40:03,528 --> 00:40:06,528
And they're going to lose faith in the project.

307
00:40:06,528 --> 00:40:11,528
And that's going to drive some users to maybe leave Bitcoin to try eCash.

308
00:40:11,528 --> 00:40:13,528
Or maybe it's going to make some people sell.

309
00:40:13,528 --> 00:40:18,528
I'm not giving financial advice I'm just saying hypothetically this can happen.

310
00:40:18,528 --> 00:40:28,528
And if you're opening up the floodgates by hard forking it's possible that other
subsets are also going to hard fork.

311
00:40:28,528 --> 00:40:33,528
And do the same and just see what the market thinks how valuable this is.

312
00:40:33,528 --> 00:40:39,528
My prediction for this year is that Bitcoin is going to have at least two hard forks
from what I see.

313
00:40:39,528 --> 00:40:47,528
I think your hard fork is like the builder's one of the people who have been wanting
to bring value to Bitcoin but they could not.

314
00:40:47,528 --> 00:40:51,528
And you just want to prove that your ideas are good.

315
00:40:51,528 --> 00:40:58,528
Because there's only so many years in our lifetime that we're healthy and productive
and young and energetic and want to change the world.

316
00:40:58,528 --> 00:41:01,528
And sometimes the longer you wait the worse it gets.

317
00:41:02,528 --> 00:41:11,528
And there's also the puritans who are very deranged about the ordinals and they want
to create like a pure version of Bitcoin.

318
00:41:11,528 --> 00:41:14,528
And they have their own mining pool they have their own node client.

319
00:41:14,528 --> 00:41:19,528
I think it's just a matter of time until the Bitcoin nuts people are going to hard
fork.

320
00:41:19,528 --> 00:41:25,528
And they're going to see what the market thinks about this idea of a pure chain.

321
00:41:25,528 --> 00:41:30,528
Where they have gatekeepers for what kind of transactions you can include.

322
00:41:31,528 --> 00:41:35,528
I'm not sure if this is a question. No it is a question.

323
00:41:35,528 --> 00:41:38,528
Do you think that you're opening the floodgates for more hard forks?

324
00:41:42,528 --> 00:41:45,528
I think the hard fork is actually a pretty good idea overall.

325
00:41:45,528 --> 00:41:47,528
Like if you compare it to an altcoin.

326
00:41:47,528 --> 00:41:52,528
Altcoin is like you're asserting this whole new idea.

327
00:41:52,528 --> 00:41:55,528
But no one is credited.

328
00:41:56,528 --> 00:42:00,528
With the hard fork every Bitcoiner who owns like 0.003 Bitcoin.

329
00:42:00,528 --> 00:42:03,528
Now they're in this new thing.

330
00:42:03,528 --> 00:42:05,528
So I think the hard fork is actually a stronger competitor.

331
00:42:05,528 --> 00:42:08,528
And even though Bitcoin Cash made a lot of mistakes.

332
00:42:08,528 --> 00:42:12,528
When it really debuted in November 2017.

333
00:42:12,528 --> 00:42:18,528
It made it to the number two spot on coin market cap for one day.

334
00:42:18,528 --> 00:42:22,528
That was the famous tweet about congrats on this seriously.

335
00:42:23,528 --> 00:42:26,528
So for all the other altcoins that had ever been made.

336
00:42:26,528 --> 00:42:28,528
Including Ethereum.

337
00:42:28,528 --> 00:42:33,528
When Bitcoin Cash debuted it briefly made it to the number two spot.

338
00:42:33,528 --> 00:42:36,528
So it was like BTC was a certain spot.

339
00:42:36,528 --> 00:42:39,528
And then Bitcoin Cash was number two.

340
00:42:39,528 --> 00:42:43,528
So actually I think the hard forks have a lot of viability.

341
00:42:43,528 --> 00:42:45,528
And I think they're stronger.

342
00:42:45,528 --> 00:42:49,528
The interesting thing about the hard fork is that it poses a conflict of interest.

343
00:42:49,528 --> 00:42:55,528
Which is to say between the Bitcoin investor who would be pro hard fork.

344
00:42:55,528 --> 00:43:00,528
But then all the people running the institutions will have to be against.

345
00:43:00,528 --> 00:43:03,528
So this would be like Bitcoin Core.

346
00:43:03,528 --> 00:43:08,528
The Bitcoin GitHub repository.

347
00:43:08,528 --> 00:43:14,528
Maybe someone who runs like a media company in Bitcoin or something like that.

348
00:43:14,528 --> 00:43:17,528
Because what you say with the hard fork is that.

349
00:43:17,528 --> 00:43:19,528
What everyone is doing.

350
00:43:19,528 --> 00:43:21,528
The developers.

351
00:43:21,528 --> 00:43:23,528
The cultural leaders.

352
00:43:23,528 --> 00:43:26,528
What everyone is doing is wrong.

353
00:43:26,528 --> 00:43:29,528
And you give the investors free money.

354
00:43:29,528 --> 00:43:33,528
So of course anyone who owns Bitcoin and has self custody of their Bitcoin.

355
00:43:33,528 --> 00:43:35,528
They should just be pro hard fork.

356
00:43:35,528 --> 00:43:38,528
Because you just get tons and tons of free coins.

357
00:43:38,528 --> 00:43:41,528
On the off chance that one of them succeeds.

358
00:43:41,528 --> 00:43:43,528
You do very well.

359
00:43:43,528 --> 00:43:45,528
And in return for doing nothing.

360
00:43:45,528 --> 00:43:49,528
So the investor has to put zero effort, zero risk, zero cost.

361
00:43:49,528 --> 00:43:51,528
They get free money.

362
00:43:51,528 --> 00:43:53,528
They get large upside.

363
00:43:53,528 --> 00:43:55,528
So of course they should be pro hard fork.

364
00:43:55,528 --> 00:43:57,528
So given that that's the case.

365
00:43:57,528 --> 00:44:02,528
I think it's hard to explain why haven't we had more good hard forks.

366
00:44:02,528 --> 00:44:08,528
Part of the reason is there's no upside to contributing to the hard fork before it
happens.

367
00:44:08,528 --> 00:44:10,528
I suppose.

368
00:44:10,528 --> 00:44:14,528
But I think part of it is just that there's this conflict of interest between.

369
00:44:14,528 --> 00:44:22,528
Because the hard fork does make it harder for like whoever's whatever it is.

370
00:44:22,528 --> 00:44:24,528
Jimmy Song or whatever.

371
00:44:24,528 --> 00:44:26,528
Someone's got to have a take and they could be wrong.

372
00:44:26,528 --> 00:44:30,528
And so it's easy to just say well just dismiss all that.

373
00:44:30,528 --> 00:44:33,528
It's also hard.

374
00:44:33,528 --> 00:44:37,528
It's very hard for us for example whoever's leading Bitcoin Core.

375
00:44:37,528 --> 00:44:40,528
Because they're saying well hey we were running the project.

376
00:44:40,528 --> 00:44:44,528
And now it's like now there's a competitor.

377
00:44:44,528 --> 00:44:49,528
So everyone prefers that not to have too much competition at work.

378
00:44:49,528 --> 00:44:53,528
So I think all that's very interesting.

379
00:44:53,528 --> 00:44:56,528
I think we hopefully we will have more hard forks.

380
00:44:56,528 --> 00:45:03,528
I think they are good for they're a good way to have a conversation about the future
of Bitcoin.

381
00:45:03,528 --> 00:45:08,528
And we should not just blindly trust.

382
00:45:08,528 --> 00:45:14,528
I really think that people have grown complacent.

383
00:45:14,528 --> 00:45:19,528
Like there's just been no competition in Bitcoin.

384
00:45:19,528 --> 00:45:23,528
So people have gotten very lazy.

385
00:45:23,528 --> 00:45:24,528
I agree with this.

386
00:45:24,528 --> 00:45:29,528
And you have like a Bible verse I think on the eCash website.

387
00:45:29,528 --> 00:45:33,528
Which I'm sure is going to attract some Bitcoiners.

388
00:45:33,528 --> 00:45:36,528
Because it seems like Christianity is popular in this community.

389
00:45:36,528 --> 00:45:39,528
Which says that iron forges iron.

390
00:45:39,528 --> 00:45:42,528
Yeah we pronounce it iron though.

391
00:45:42,528 --> 00:45:46,528
But you know the metal iron sharpens iron.

392
00:45:46,528 --> 00:45:48,528
Sharpens yeah.

393
00:45:48,528 --> 00:45:53,528
So it's like competitors bring out the best in each other.

394
00:45:54,528 --> 00:45:57,528
You need something real to sharpen something else.

395
00:45:57,528 --> 00:46:02,528
I thought it was clever with the irony of like gold.

396
00:46:02,528 --> 00:46:06,528
And yeah but that's a good one.

397
00:46:06,528 --> 00:46:09,528
You know a couple good Bible quotes here and there.

398
00:46:09,528 --> 00:46:12,528
So I throw them out sometimes.

399
00:46:12,528 --> 00:46:15,528
You went to Sunday school.

400
00:46:15,528 --> 00:46:18,528
I did.

401
00:46:18,528 --> 00:46:21,528
I have a couple different copies of the Bible on my bookshelf.

402
00:46:22,528 --> 00:46:27,528
I have one that's in original Hebrew and Greek.

403
00:46:27,528 --> 00:46:30,528
Can you read that?

404
00:46:30,528 --> 00:46:33,528
It has the translation beneath it.

405
00:46:33,528 --> 00:46:35,528
Oh beautiful.

406
00:46:35,528 --> 00:46:37,528
It is a really small font.

407
00:46:37,528 --> 00:46:40,528
That's how I have the works of Aristotle like in parallel.

408
00:46:40,528 --> 00:46:43,528
Or the original and the translation on the same page.

409
00:46:43,528 --> 00:46:47,528
Anyway I diverged a bit too much.

410
00:46:48,528 --> 00:46:51,528
I'm going to get to the most controversial part.

411
00:46:51,528 --> 00:46:53,528
But before that drumroll.

412
00:46:53,528 --> 00:46:55,528
I'm going to plug the sponsors.

413
00:46:55,528 --> 00:46:56,528
Sideshift.

414
00:46:56,528 --> 00:46:58,528
I hope they support eCash.

415
00:46:58,528 --> 00:47:00,528
Brains Hashpower.

416
00:47:00,528 --> 00:47:02,528
You can use that to mine eCash.

417
00:47:02,528 --> 00:47:03,528
Orange Rock.

418
00:47:03,528 --> 00:47:06,528
I hope they open the trading for eCash.

419
00:47:06,528 --> 00:47:07,528
LayerTwo Labs.

420
00:47:07,528 --> 00:47:08,528
They're building eCash.

421
00:47:08,528 --> 00:47:10,528
I hope they build Drivechains too.

422
00:47:10,528 --> 00:47:11,528
Cake Wallet.

423
00:47:11,528 --> 00:47:14,528
I hope that they're going to support eCash too.

424
00:47:15,528 --> 00:47:19,528
Those were my sponsor plugs for today.

425
00:47:19,528 --> 00:47:22,528
Thanks to the sponsors for making this possible.

426
00:47:22,528 --> 00:47:24,528
And of course they're biased.

427
00:47:24,528 --> 00:47:25,528
But you should check them out.

428
00:47:25,528 --> 00:47:26,528
They're cool.

429
00:47:26,528 --> 00:47:31,528
They support Bitcoin with pretty good use cases.

430
00:47:31,528 --> 00:47:35,528
Which maybe some orthodox people are not endorsing.

431
00:47:35,528 --> 00:47:37,528
Orange Rock is actually a new sponsor.

432
00:47:37,528 --> 00:47:41,528
They're from the Bitcoin.com news team.

433
00:47:41,528 --> 00:47:46,528
And they built this interface for trading with privacy.

434
00:47:46,528 --> 00:47:50,528
And having a lot of trading pairs inside of your app.

435
00:47:50,528 --> 00:47:51,528
It's actually pretty cool.

436
00:47:51,528 --> 00:47:54,528
I hope that they're going to support eCash.

437
00:47:54,528 --> 00:47:57,528
Because I want to see competition.

438
00:47:57,528 --> 00:47:59,528
Not because I'm an investor.

439
00:47:59,528 --> 00:48:01,528
I couldn't care less at this point.

440
00:48:01,528 --> 00:48:03,528
I'm not doing this for money.

441
00:48:03,528 --> 00:48:05,528
I'm doing this because I care.

442
00:48:05,528 --> 00:48:09,528
And I want to see Drivechains getting out there.

443
00:48:09,528 --> 00:48:11,528
And proving what they can do.

444
00:48:11,528 --> 00:48:13,528
And making Bitcoin.

445
00:48:13,528 --> 00:48:15,528
Sometimes when you can't get the girl you want.

446
00:48:15,528 --> 00:48:18,528
You have to get her best friend or whatever.

447
00:48:18,528 --> 00:48:20,528
To make her jealous.

448
00:48:20,528 --> 00:48:22,528
To prove what a good lover you can be.

449
00:48:22,528 --> 00:48:24,528
And how you can take care of a girl.

450
00:48:24,528 --> 00:48:27,528
It's kind of like this.

451
00:48:27,528 --> 00:48:28,528
But anyway Paul.

452
00:48:28,528 --> 00:48:30,528
Let's get to the most controversial part.

453
00:48:30,528 --> 00:48:32,528
Which gives me the impression.

454
00:48:32,528 --> 00:48:34,528
That there's like a 50% chance.

455
00:48:34,528 --> 00:48:36,528
That this is going to flip Bitcoin.

456
00:48:36,528 --> 00:48:38,528
And you want to take it into consideration.

457
00:48:38,528 --> 00:48:41,528
Because there's the question.

458
00:48:41,528 --> 00:48:43,528
Of what you do with Satoshi's coins.

459
00:48:43,528 --> 00:48:45,528
And all the other hard forks so far.

460
00:48:45,528 --> 00:48:47,528
They just didn't touch them.

461
00:48:47,528 --> 00:48:50,528
But you decided to get half of Satoshi's coins.

462
00:48:50,528 --> 00:48:56,528
And basically give Satoshi half of what he mined on eCash.

463
00:48:56,528 --> 00:48:58,528
And of course you don't have to do this.

464
00:48:58,528 --> 00:49:00,528
Because Satoshi created Bitcoin.

465
00:49:00,528 --> 00:49:02,528
He has BTC.

466
00:49:02,528 --> 00:49:04,528
But you were basically thinking.

467
00:49:04,528 --> 00:49:06,528
Okay in the event that Satoshi comes back.

468
00:49:06,528 --> 00:49:08,528
And wants to use this.

469
00:49:08,528 --> 00:49:10,528
Or this becomes bigger than Bitcoin.

470
00:49:10,528 --> 00:49:13,528
Satoshi can still claim some free coins.

471
00:49:13,528 --> 00:49:15,528
As a tribute.

472
00:49:15,528 --> 00:49:17,528
That he put a lot of work into this.

473
00:49:17,528 --> 00:49:19,528
And laid the foundation of the project.

474
00:49:19,528 --> 00:49:22,528
But 50% of the coins are on sale.

475
00:49:22,528 --> 00:49:24,528
I actually bought a few of them.

476
00:49:24,528 --> 00:49:26,528
Not a lot because I'm not super rich.

477
00:49:26,528 --> 00:49:29,528
But I was happy to support the project.

478
00:49:29,528 --> 00:49:33,528
The point I guess is to fund the development.

479
00:49:33,528 --> 00:49:35,528
And bootstrap eCash.

480
00:49:36,528 --> 00:49:38,528
And yeah.

481
00:49:38,528 --> 00:49:40,528
I think this is the most controversial part.

482
00:49:40,528 --> 00:49:42,528
And most people are going to be.

483
00:49:44,528 --> 00:49:46,528
Confused to say the least.

484
00:49:46,528 --> 00:49:47,528
They're going to be like.

485
00:49:47,528 --> 00:49:49,528
Oh you're stealing from Satoshi or whatever.

486
00:49:49,528 --> 00:49:51,528
But he did not create Zcash.

487
00:49:51,528 --> 00:49:53,528
Not Zcash. eCash.

488
00:49:55,528 --> 00:49:57,528
Yeah I certainly think this will be the most controversial part.

489
00:49:57,528 --> 00:49:59,528
I think you know.

490
00:50:00,121 --> 00:50:27,121
It's there's a lot of things to say though. About why it's a very good idea. But one
is that we already have a version where there is no you know. There's no
reassignment of Satoshi's coins. And that's the BIP300 idea on BTC. So you can.
That's the idea. The free version of the idea is just sitting right there. But then
the hard fork is a less desirable path.

491
00:50:27,121 --> 00:50:31,041
So the hard fork takes a lot of work I think. Not only does it take a lot of.

492
00:50:31,041 --> 00:50:34,881
Development work. But it also takes a lot of. You know you're starting a new
project.

493
00:50:34,881 --> 00:50:39,521
You have no network effect. So I think the hard fork is very difficult to pull off.

494
00:50:41,121 --> 00:50:45,361
And now you have the question of. If you do a pure hard fork.

495
00:50:46,081 --> 00:50:51,361
Where there's nothing in it. Or you could call it the creators. But it's really much
more than

496
00:50:51,361 --> 00:50:58,401
the creators as I'm going to explain. If you do a pure hard fork. Creates everyone
one to one.

497
00:51:00,401 --> 00:51:06,961
It's very difficult to get any. Like investment in the product. You have to do all
of your work

498
00:51:06,961 --> 00:51:12,161
after the moment of the fork. You know what I mean. Like you can't like invest in
the project.

499
00:51:12,161 --> 00:51:14,721
I'm not talking about financially. I'm talking about like you can't.

500
00:51:16,001 --> 00:51:20,401
Why would you. Why would you pay any attention to the project. Or shill the project.

501
00:51:21,361 --> 00:51:26,881
Or get excited about the project. It needs to be a way where you can profit off of
the people who

502
00:51:26,881 --> 00:51:31,761
are doubting the project. Disproportionately. In other words you have to be able to
buy and sell it.

503
00:51:32,801 --> 00:51:40,401
But how can you buy and sell it before. The fork. Because you can't. Because you
have to credit

504
00:51:40,401 --> 00:51:47,441
everyone at the time of the fork with the one to one coins. So. This is kind of
maybe splitting

505
00:51:47,441 --> 00:51:54,721
the difference between just like an altcoin where. Maybe the creators give
themselves.

506
00:51:56,641 --> 00:52:02,481
You know a disproportionate stake in the coin to kind of help it. Make sure that
it's a success.

507
00:52:04,721 --> 00:52:10,481
And then the pure hard fork idea. But yeah if people don't like this idea. And I
myself

508
00:52:10,481 --> 00:52:19,041
I'm not a huge fan of it. But the alternative is just to activate PIP 300 and BTC.
But of course

509
00:52:19,041 --> 00:52:22,321
I think that will probably never happen. So really if you're going to go through all
the

510
00:52:22,321 --> 00:52:26,241
trials and tribulations of the hard fork which is going to be very difficult.

511
00:52:26,241 --> 00:52:31,121
You have to launch a new project. You have to have a new brand. You have to convert
people.

512
00:52:32,081 --> 00:52:38,801
You have to compete against BTC. That's basically what is needed.

513
00:52:40,401 --> 00:52:47,521
Think about it. If you only do the pure fork. Everything after the fork. That's when
you have

514
00:52:47,521 --> 00:52:52,561
to like start saying okay I'm going to buy a bunch of coins and then I'm going to

515
00:52:55,201 --> 00:53:00,241
talk with people about how great this is. I think the moment of the fork is a very
important

516
00:53:00,401 --> 00:53:03,681
point and you have to have all your ducks in a row. You want to have a lot of
investment

517
00:53:04,641 --> 00:53:07,841
pre-fork so that by the time it actually happens with normal people

518
00:53:09,601 --> 00:53:15,441
there a lot of the stuff has been worked out. But yeah I'm sure this will be a very

519
00:53:15,441 --> 00:53:21,201
controversial part of the project. But hey if people don't like it then they can
just sell.

520
00:53:21,201 --> 00:53:26,481
That's what I encourage you to do. We have to give it a slightly selfish angle.

521
00:53:27,361 --> 00:53:34,801
Because we want it to be like a disproportionate benefit to beating the stigma
basically.

522
00:53:38,001 --> 00:53:43,361
Yeah I get that. To be honest if I was in your position I would take like 100%

523
00:53:43,361 --> 00:53:47,761
of Satoshi's coins and just bootstrap and market the hell out of it.

524
00:53:49,601 --> 00:53:55,041
Because the assumption as of lately is that we're going to end up freezing Satoshi's

525
00:53:55,041 --> 00:54:03,601
coins in Bitcoin as per BIP361. Yeah I'd just like to randomly point out that I had
this plan

526
00:54:03,601 --> 00:54:09,681
was like many years old and it's just a weird coincidence that all this quantum
stuff has been

527
00:54:09,681 --> 00:54:17,041
talking about. But there's a lot of weird overlaps so for example these are like the
coins that are

528
00:54:17,041 --> 00:54:22,401
not paid to pubkey hash they're just paid to pubkey so the public key is there so
it's not

529
00:54:22,401 --> 00:54:29,761
obscured by hash. And it is kind of the case that Satoshi had this special miner
that people

530
00:54:29,761 --> 00:54:36,241
can read about the patoshi miner and he it was very fast and he had it wait five
minutes in

531
00:54:36,241 --> 00:54:43,201
between blocks so there is a weird bizarre sense in which he altruistically was
running this miner

532
00:54:43,201 --> 00:54:50,321
to keep the network moving with 10 minute blocks but he didn't wasn't as interested
in

533
00:54:50,881 --> 00:54:56,641
taking the coins for himself so there's a weird altruism dimension to it.

534
00:54:59,361 --> 00:55:03,441
Yeah and now we're talking in Bitcoin about freezing the coins or

535
00:55:03,441 --> 00:55:09,841
allowing the first quantum computer that actually works with the required qubits

536
00:55:10,641 --> 00:55:15,841
to actually steal Satoshi's coins which means that possibly Google is going to dump
a lot of

537
00:55:15,841 --> 00:55:21,761
Bitcoin on the market in a few years. In my conception of the idea it was important
that

538
00:55:21,761 --> 00:55:29,601
if the project is a huge success like let's say the project were to surpass BTC and
even

539
00:55:29,601 --> 00:55:35,121
were to hit this 25 million dollar per coin ceiling after defeating all the fiat
currencies

540
00:55:36,721 --> 00:55:42,801
if it theoretically did that Satoshi's network worth would go up because even though

541
00:55:43,761 --> 00:55:50,721
he would have half of the coins after you know in purchasing power the price the
exchange rate

542
00:55:50,721 --> 00:55:56,641
would be much higher than you know which is twice of I guess it's 75 000 today so

543
00:55:57,361 --> 00:56:01,681
as long as the price of if the price of eCash were to beat 150k

544
00:56:03,361 --> 00:56:08,241
his net worth is actually going up as a result of the project existing.

545
00:56:09,201 --> 00:56:10,881
I wanted to have that angle in there.

546
00:56:13,601 --> 00:56:21,441
Who knows when for as for quantum people would need to know the date at which a
quantum computer

547
00:56:24,161 --> 00:56:32,161
capable of breaking ECDSA becomes cheaply available to construct and operate.

548
00:56:33,681 --> 00:56:37,361
We should have prediction markets on that so that people can learn exactly when that
data is.

549
00:56:38,641 --> 00:56:43,121
This is one of my many I don't think I should also say is you know I was on this
prediction

550
00:56:43,121 --> 00:56:48,801
markets beat since 2013 in bitcoin I was saying we got to have prediction markets on
bitcoin

551
00:56:49,521 --> 00:56:53,281
so this is just one of my many and so I you know I've predicted an awful lot of
things

552
00:56:54,321 --> 00:57:00,561
in bitcoin that I you know there were 10 or 15 years ago that I was the whole 100%
correct about

553
00:57:01,361 --> 00:57:05,281
I'm not saying that that means I'm going to be correct about eCash but it does mean
that

554
00:57:05,761 --> 00:57:12,641
I just think like you know I'm often very early and so I think that people should

555
00:57:14,241 --> 00:57:18,241
think about that very carefully when I give them this free stuff.

556
00:57:20,801 --> 00:57:25,281
Yeah so basically for clarification everyone is going to get one-to-one

557
00:57:25,921 --> 00:57:31,761
eCash according to how much bitcoin they hold except for Satoshi who can only claim
half of

558
00:57:31,921 --> 00:57:37,121
who can only claim half of what he mined in bitcoin and Satoshi

559
00:57:38,641 --> 00:57:46,961
can maybe it will probably be 1 million bch 1 million bsv 1 million xcc right he
yeah and he's

560
00:57:46,961 --> 00:57:53,601
never claimed any of that of course he's going to be able to claim 550k yeah and if
we don't sell

561
00:57:53,601 --> 00:57:59,361
them I'll probably just we probably just won't take them you know so it'll probably
you'll

562
00:57:59,361 --> 00:58:04,881
probably have more than half but who knows I mean we've been selling them so I guess
it's useful

563
00:58:04,881 --> 00:58:10,241
to have them on to raise money for development but it's also to give people skin in
the game

564
00:58:10,241 --> 00:58:15,761
at the time of the fork these are both very important because again my view is that
the

565
00:58:15,761 --> 00:58:21,521
the moment of the fork you want to have it's kind of bizarre because really my what
I would

566
00:58:22,401 --> 00:58:26,881
one way of explaining it would be to say I don't want to like sell people like a
weird dream like

567
00:58:26,881 --> 00:58:33,601
I hated the way the ICOs worked and even the way Ethereum worked because it did it
raised for it

568
00:58:33,601 --> 00:58:39,921
it would be totally unfinished and then they would do all this fundraising and then
it would launch

569
00:58:39,921 --> 00:58:45,201
and it it would still need a lot of work but with this I wanted to really have
something mostly done

570
00:58:46,961 --> 00:58:51,601
at the time of the fork so that's kind of difficult to pull off if

571
00:58:52,241 --> 00:58:56,241
there's absolutely no way anyone can have a disproportionate benefit if it succeeds

572
00:58:57,841 --> 00:59:03,121
wait so are you saying that you have been working towards the fork for a long time
or

573
00:59:04,001 --> 00:59:09,361
actually when was it that you decided to actually well I know I thought about it for
many many years

574
00:59:09,361 --> 00:59:17,921
I always thought like if Bitcoin like what's the alternative if um if Bitcoin makes
some kind of

575
00:59:17,921 --> 00:59:24,561
severe mistake it'll have to be hard fork and I you know even the scaling war I was
very concerned

576
00:59:25,441 --> 00:59:32,241
about both sides it seemed like both sides just wanted to win and not so even like
back in 2015

577
00:59:32,241 --> 00:59:39,521
I was kind of thinking about this I think this makes it a much more interesting
story honestly

578
00:59:39,521 --> 00:59:47,281
because I was like waiting patiently and meanwhile the Bitcoin has been doing very
very well um

579
00:59:48,161 --> 00:59:53,841
but now I've decided well I'm just not sure like how where do we go from here like
are we really

580
00:59:53,841 --> 01:00:00,801
going to get to like 200k and a million dollars per coin with just like treasury
companies and

581
01:00:00,801 --> 01:00:05,601
custodial lightning and everyone lying to each other that's another thing is the
Bitcoin community

582
01:00:05,601 --> 01:00:15,041
used to be very truth oriented but now it's completely it's very much uh not to put
it mildly

583
01:00:15,121 --> 01:00:22,321
put it mildly and you also get rewarded for larping or pretending that everything is
fine

584
01:00:22,321 --> 01:00:30,881
but anyway let me put on my Giacomo Zucco hat or whatever and he's gonna say wait a
second this guy

585
01:00:30,881 --> 01:00:37,201
has been farming engagement has been getting followers building his platform just so
he can

586
01:00:37,201 --> 01:00:44,321
launch an affinity scam because what you said can be framed in this way also like
you you were always

587
01:00:44,321 --> 01:00:51,441
thinking about doing the hard fork and the only reason why you hung out with
Bitcoiners

588
01:00:51,441 --> 01:00:55,521
up until this point was that you're gonna launch your own quote-unquote shit coin
which is not

589
01:00:55,521 --> 01:01:04,881
Bitcoin is any of this fair or would you say that your contributions to Bitcoin were
not sincere

590
01:01:07,121 --> 01:01:10,481
uh well I kind of think you could flip the question around and you could say if you
were

591
01:01:10,481 --> 01:01:15,601
really sincere like imagine someone's contributing to Bitcoin and they think this is
the number one

592
01:01:15,601 --> 01:01:25,281
idea that Bitcoin needs and it's very very low risk and it has enormous upside and
then you

593
01:01:25,281 --> 01:01:32,561
champion that idea for a while and then um you know like at a certain point you have
to

594
01:01:32,561 --> 01:01:36,881
do something uh you have like it because it's like really all the other ideas I
think are just

595
01:01:36,881 --> 01:01:42,081
really terrible I mean I it's I'm not saying that Drivechain is the best idea in the
whole world

596
01:01:43,121 --> 01:01:46,561
and that it could and that it's a sure thing or whatever I'm not saying any of that

597
01:01:47,121 --> 01:01:53,121
but how is it even possible for me to do that lightning debate or whatever you know
like so

598
01:01:54,241 --> 01:02:00,161
um and then like the best idea we have now is a Bitcoin treasury company which is to
say that you

599
01:02:00,161 --> 01:02:09,681
should sell all your Bitcoin and get basically a some stock certificates that the
creator can

600
01:02:11,361 --> 01:02:16,161
the stock certificates and create you know add to the supply at any time it's um

601
01:02:17,521 --> 01:02:20,481
so I don't know I just don't see a lot of other good ideas around

602
01:02:20,481 --> 01:02:24,961
is the problem now the question is like was it just the whole time doing affinity
scam

603
01:02:24,961 --> 01:02:37,281
um uh like I don't know like the I would you know I think why would uh well okay
that's what

604
01:02:37,281 --> 01:02:42,641
people think I mean it's kind of suspicious that I'm giving away the free so like
the free

605
01:02:43,441 --> 01:02:48,161
CUSF version of BIP300 you know it's still like right there the whole time so I
guess you kind

606
01:02:48,161 --> 01:02:53,041
of have to equivocate on whether or not you think the idea is good or not you know
what I mean like

607
01:02:53,041 --> 01:03:00,961
is BIP300 a good idea if it is a good idea then um I was the one who was scammed

608
01:03:00,961 --> 01:03:07,441
right because I have this good idea and you know it's not going anywhere but if you
think the idea

609
01:03:07,441 --> 01:03:11,841
is bad then you have nothing to worry about from the fork because the fork can't
possibly succeed

610
01:03:11,841 --> 01:03:18,481
it's just some bad idea uh there's also the conversation to be had about what
happens

611
01:03:18,481 --> 01:03:24,321
post fork and maybe that this makes this case stronger for a hard fork where people
can play

612
01:03:24,321 --> 01:03:30,241
with the coins that they claim for free because we have seen a lot of these
well-funded projects

613
01:03:30,241 --> 01:03:36,321
in bitcoin launching and then having almost no users now I don't want to knock on
Citrea

614
01:03:36,321 --> 01:03:42,641
because I think it's very interesting and I think they also do some useful stuff and
their main

615
01:03:43,201 --> 01:03:50,241
target is to get some liquidity that's currently in wrapped bitcoin on Ethereum so
it's not

616
01:03:50,881 --> 01:03:57,521
directly targeting you know the bitcoin pleb or whatever that's not the user who
should consider

617
01:03:57,521 --> 01:04:04,641
it but even under these circumstances it was not as successful after launch as
expected and

618
01:04:04,641 --> 01:04:09,521
that's not because the idea is not good it's not because the tech is not good
there's also

619
01:04:09,521 --> 01:04:15,521
the spider chain by botanics there's a bunch of these that are launching and are
going to

620
01:04:15,521 --> 01:04:21,761
be launching I think also Robin Linus's idea for a BitVM free with garbled circuits
and

621
01:04:21,761 --> 01:04:27,121
that's Liam Egan and they want to launch something that's called shielded
client-side validation on

622
01:04:27,121 --> 01:04:33,921
bitcoin that's also a good idea but if it launches and then nobody uses it or you
get 10 users who

623
01:04:33,921 --> 01:04:41,041
are enthusiastic about it then it's a disaster and I think bitcoin before having and
you can

624
01:04:41,041 --> 01:04:48,161
agree with me on this before having any technical issue or forking issue or
developer crisis it has

625
01:04:48,161 --> 01:04:53,921
a cultural problem where people are just in this stasis where they're afraid to do
anything with

626
01:04:53,921 --> 01:05:00,401
their coins they just want to keep them in cold storage and huddle and wait
indefinitely but if

627
01:05:00,401 --> 01:05:05,121
you want to prove that something like Drivechains is a good idea you need something
with lower risk

628
01:05:05,841 --> 01:05:11,441
and I think that the hard fork is the the right platform to launch this people can
actually see

629
01:05:11,441 --> 01:05:18,001
how the tech works if they want to lobby for it on bitcoin they can keep going and
demand it from the

630
01:05:18,001 --> 01:05:26,481
core developers or the miners who might activate it but it can also remain like an
eCash thing

631
01:05:26,481 --> 01:05:32,001
just to have the Drivechain and maybe we're gonna see how the market reacts to this
the way in which

632
01:05:32,961 --> 01:05:38,801
I was thinking about the soft fork for Drivechains was like and I think you also
said that

633
01:05:38,801 --> 01:05:45,601
after BIP300 bitcoin can ossify safely if it's going to be an altcoin that takes
away all the

634
01:05:45,601 --> 01:05:50,881
use cases of other altcoins it's like the altcoins who end all altcoins I don't know
if it's I think

635
01:05:50,881 --> 01:05:56,961
it's like a horrible parallel to the propaganda of the first world war which was
calling it the

636
01:05:56,961 --> 01:06:04,561
war to end all wars like the greatest of them all but there's a merit to this idea
and we can see

637
01:06:04,561 --> 01:06:11,041
how the market reacts and the bitcoin holders can test can actually use their
bitcoin which they're

638
01:06:11,041 --> 01:06:17,121
gonna claim as eCash one-to-one to see if they like the tech if it's useful to them
if they can

639
01:06:17,121 --> 01:06:22,881
build something now I think with clod or whatever it's easier than ever to build
applications

640
01:06:23,601 --> 01:06:29,521
on top of various blockchains there's like a very large library of open source
projects that you can

641
01:06:29,521 --> 01:06:37,841
fork and this can actually work specifically because it's a hard fork because the
risk

642
01:06:37,841 --> 01:06:44,241
is perceived as being lower people can have more fun and I think the biggest
challenge that you're

643
01:06:44,241 --> 01:06:50,881
facing is to get users to get them to care about the chain to get them to use it
every day to engage

644
01:06:50,881 --> 01:06:56,161
to want to build value to add something that is not there already

645
01:06:59,201 --> 01:07:00,881
yeah I think there's something very different about

646
01:07:02,801 --> 01:07:09,441
what I've been doing versus you know Citria or Botanix or whatever which is to say

647
01:07:09,521 --> 01:07:17,761
oh I don't know maybe I could be wrong about this but I think the the core idea
behind Drivechain

648
01:07:17,761 --> 01:07:24,081
was that there are these people who disagree you know very passionately so there was
it was not a

649
01:07:24,081 --> 01:07:29,361
lot of indifference during the block size war you know there was a lot of passion
there was really

650
01:07:29,361 --> 01:07:37,681
really emotion and people were very uh they really cared about the outcome a lot so

651
01:07:37,921 --> 01:07:42,001
there wasn't like this indifference and whereas I do think these these modern things
these are

652
01:07:42,001 --> 01:07:47,041
like nerd sniping and they are like very impressive technical toys and they are

653
01:07:49,201 --> 01:07:54,881
I think those things would struggle to get users because the user is just going to
think oh does

654
01:07:54,881 --> 01:08:03,521
it work for my use case um yes or no and people are not even going to care they're
not even going

655
01:08:04,081 --> 01:08:08,801
to care about the tech you know like Monero they just know it's slightly more it's
more

656
01:08:08,801 --> 01:08:16,881
private than Bitcoin and then the darknet market requires them to use it so what I
think this

657
01:08:16,881 --> 01:08:27,361
would could go is something like the project launches a few investors see that you
know bag

658
01:08:27,601 --> 01:08:34,001
that you know bag holders they see that it has a potential to make it in the long
run

659
01:08:34,641 --> 01:08:40,961
and then you know okay so like what happened with with BTC is numerous times it
would go

660
01:08:40,961 --> 01:08:46,801
parabolic you know it would go like super super you know there'd be like a huge run
up in the price

661
01:08:47,921 --> 01:08:55,201
when this happened there would be lots and lots of people buying and selling BTC of
course there's

662
01:08:55,201 --> 01:09:00,081
lots of people selling because you can lock in you could sell one percent of your
BTC hoard

663
01:09:01,441 --> 01:09:06,001
at a very very high price a lot of people would do that and of course a lot of
people

664
01:09:06,001 --> 01:09:09,761
are buying because the price is going up and up and up everyone's thinking oh a new
paradigm you

665
01:09:09,761 --> 01:09:15,601
know but what would always happen is that of course in that case we would get killed
by the

666
01:09:16,561 --> 01:09:22,161
the fees and the block size limit would that would cut everyone off because
eventually the

667
01:09:22,161 --> 01:09:28,401
fees would be 10 15 20 50 per person and some people would say I'm gonna wait and
then other

668
01:09:28,401 --> 01:09:34,961
people would say this is the future of money and they would get a little confused
and yeah

669
01:09:34,961 --> 01:09:39,521
lightning network doesn't work but with this project the idea would be to launch
some L2s

670
01:09:39,521 --> 01:09:45,921
that have this potential to go parabolic when users discover them and they'd say
well this is

671
01:09:45,921 --> 01:09:50,401
the thing that I like to use and then I have an uninterrupted exponential growth

672
01:09:51,361 --> 01:09:55,921
where it just you know it just keeps growing and growing and growing it becomes a
big

673
01:09:55,921 --> 01:10:02,161
event and with the shared hashing algorithm that would mean that eventually if the
eCash

674
01:10:02,161 --> 01:10:08,561
price accelerates enough you know the difficulty only adjusts in a very linear way

675
01:10:10,641 --> 01:10:18,481
so if the market price is accelerating it would be starving BTC of hash rate and
that would be like

676
01:10:18,561 --> 01:10:25,281
the so but yeah with the question of getting users that is the that is of course the
number one

677
01:10:26,321 --> 01:10:34,081
priority but I think it's kind of like this project is a little more meta than that
because

678
01:10:34,081 --> 01:10:39,921
I'm saying that any developer who thinks that they've hit a use case they can launch
the project

679
01:10:39,921 --> 01:10:44,481
here and that's what you really want is you want a world where the developer could
just

680
01:10:45,281 --> 01:10:48,641
do their thing and then they have feedback from their real users

681
01:10:49,281 --> 01:10:53,121
so yeah there's no guarantee that any of this will work at all but I think it does
have the

682
01:10:53,121 --> 01:11:00,161
potential to actually survive and win in a way that other stuff does not other stuff
I you know

683
01:11:00,161 --> 01:11:08,401
I don't really see the point of you know I don't know I don't really see even the
point of like

684
01:11:08,401 --> 01:11:14,961
what's the point even like of arc because ultimately most of the lightning usage is

685
01:11:14,961 --> 01:11:20,801
custodial and no one's going to want to have these channels be open like the whole
thing

686
01:11:20,801 --> 01:11:27,041
it really doesn't work at all so I don't know and you know even for other things for
same for

687
01:11:28,161 --> 01:11:30,721
you know botanics and whatever I mean I just kind of see the point

688
01:11:31,601 --> 01:11:39,361
well I do see the point in experimentation but this is like being held hostage in an
environment

689
01:11:39,361 --> 01:11:47,281
that's hostile towards your idea and it's very hard to get users and of course you
you are like

690
01:11:47,281 --> 01:11:53,921
the robin hansen of bitcoin and maybe that a lot of people haven't read anything
from robin hansen

691
01:11:54,881 --> 01:12:00,881
but what's good to understand is that the way in which satoshi solved the double
spending

692
01:12:00,881 --> 01:12:08,321
problem is not computer science it's actually game theory it's this assumption that
it's more

693
01:12:08,321 --> 01:12:15,441
profitable to not double spend and to participate honestly in the system and you're
just taking this

694
01:12:16,241 --> 01:12:22,481
idea and pushing it further to see how it works how miners are going to behave

695
01:12:23,041 --> 01:12:28,481
in this environment where they collect revenue from multiple chains and whether or
not they're

696
01:12:28,481 --> 01:12:34,641
going to be tempted to steal or make an honest living just farming from these sidechains

697
01:12:37,601 --> 01:12:41,201
where was I going with this yeah game fury and robin hansen

698
01:12:41,201 --> 01:12:45,201
check out elephant in the brain it's the book that you recommended yeah it's very
good

699
01:12:45,281 --> 01:12:52,721
um I think like it's well it's just hard to know what to make of it all because you
know

700
01:12:53,281 --> 01:13:02,321
to me BIP300 is just counting to 13 000 and it's an opt-in reversible ignorable

701
01:13:02,321 --> 01:13:06,401
soft fork that you're no that doesn't even need to know that anything is happening

702
01:13:07,841 --> 01:13:13,841
you just ignore it how could that even possibly be controversial to say nothing of
like OP_CAT and

703
01:13:13,841 --> 01:13:21,841
whatever OP_CTV like oh these are all these op op soft forks are just nothing so the
very fact

704
01:13:21,841 --> 01:13:27,921
that is controversial at all I think is very suspicious because the what I'm doing
is opening

705
01:13:27,921 --> 01:13:33,761
the door to open the door to l2 competition so I think only if you think your l2
really sucks would

706
01:13:33,761 --> 01:13:38,561
you be against Drivechain so that's why I'm actually worried that there's much more
corruption

707
01:13:39,201 --> 01:13:39,841
than we thought

708
01:13:45,281 --> 01:13:50,321
I know some people will say that you're late with this idea and that there's already
some

709
01:13:50,321 --> 01:13:54,881
interesting academic and also practical research into scaling on the base layer

710
01:13:55,521 --> 01:14:01,441
without having extremely large blocks bloating or whatever and they're gonna point
out to something

711
01:14:01,441 --> 01:14:08,001
like caspa or mimblewimble or whatever do you see these becoming layer twos or do
you think that

712
01:14:08,881 --> 01:14:14,881
you can have an actual base layer that's better than what we inherit from satoshi

713
01:14:14,881 --> 01:14:20,001
that you can integrate into eCash so that you're going to have even more efficient
layer twos

714
01:14:23,601 --> 01:14:29,601
well I don't think I think it's a smart thing to keep the l1 the same as bitcoin
core because

715
01:14:29,601 --> 01:14:37,361
there's so many tiny details you know bitcoin core has been attacked to death and
even the

716
01:14:37,361 --> 01:14:43,201
people running it now accidentally introduce cvs that they have to secretly fix so I
don't think

717
01:14:43,201 --> 01:14:48,561
it's a good idea to change l1 and again a soft fork doesn't really even change l1
that's part

718
01:14:48,561 --> 01:14:56,081
of the why this is all a circus but um so I wouldn't want to change l1 too much if I
did

719
01:14:56,081 --> 01:15:00,321
I would just do more accusive soft forks that don't edit any of the code

720
01:15:00,492 --> 01:15:27,492
of bitcoin l1 so we could do OP_CAT and whatever upctv I don't think you know it's
possible that there's some other technology that is much better than what I've come
up with that I don't I don't even pretend to be like a great technologist I just
think 5300 is this thing that lets different people who disagree over what the full
node should do just get their way and that's all that it is

721
01:15:27,492 --> 01:15:32,212
I happen to have also produced like with thunder we have these tests and you can see
that it can

722
01:15:32,212 --> 01:15:39,652
process you know whatever 960 megabyte block I think you know you I have the exact
benchmarks

723
01:15:39,652 --> 01:15:46,212
you know published in our our contest that we ran and so very very quickly and these
are just

724
01:15:46,212 --> 01:15:52,132
on normal github run or computers that anyone can redo or test them for themselves
so I don't really

725
01:15:52,132 --> 01:15:59,252
need anything newer we already have what we have is already enough uh the world is
has changed

726
01:15:59,252 --> 01:16:04,292
since back in satoshi's day and back during the block size war in 2015

727
01:16:04,932 --> 01:16:11,332
bandwidth was the bottleneck well actually bandwidth has increased so much relative
to

728
01:16:12,532 --> 01:16:17,012
transaction density of the world or transaction rate of the world

729
01:16:17,892 --> 01:16:25,492
that it bandwidth is no longer the bottleneck anyway so I think this is another
thing where

730
01:16:25,492 --> 01:16:33,972
people forget that 10 years is a long time in the world of technology and in fact if
we had the same

731
01:16:33,972 --> 01:16:39,652
it would be very interesting if bitcoin had the same history like it's a it started
in 2009

732
01:16:39,652 --> 01:16:47,732
2009 january 3rd 2009 and let's say that somehow bitcoin was invented later in the
internet's

733
01:16:47,732 --> 01:16:55,412
history you know it's invented in 2019 10 years later and we're now six years in but
it has

734
01:16:56,052 --> 01:16:59,732
who knows I don't know how to keep everything else in apples to apples comparison
but maybe it would

735
01:16:59,732 --> 01:17:05,892
have like a let's just say it has a one megabyte block size even though I don't even
know I don't

736
01:17:05,892 --> 01:17:11,572
think that would make any sense but I think if we were at the current levels that we
have

737
01:17:11,572 --> 01:17:16,772
where you know like now you have like a call of duty update is like 28 gigabytes or
something

738
01:17:16,772 --> 01:17:24,292
then people routinely just they just start that you know and then they go grab
something to eat

739
01:17:24,292 --> 01:17:31,012
and then they go back in the to their xbox or something and so so I don't know what
I'm not

740
01:17:31,012 --> 01:17:38,532
sure what to make of how the block size or would have gone in a world where the hard
drive and

741
01:17:38,532 --> 01:17:46,212
bandwidth costs are very very low because we're all also much wealthier now so maybe
internet costs

742
01:17:47,652 --> 01:17:55,812
70 a month here but it also costs 70 a month back in like 2006 or something but

743
01:17:56,452 --> 01:17:59,412
you know incomes have gone up and there's been inflation so

744
01:18:02,132 --> 01:18:08,692
wait you pay 70 bucks for your internet well you know some people have deals where
they can

745
01:18:08,692 --> 01:18:14,212
get temporarily they can get 50 and it depends on how competitive your if your area
is a monopoly

746
01:18:14,212 --> 01:18:20,532
then you're kind of screwed what's your internet speed paul uh you know it's fine
it's fine it's a

747
01:18:20,532 --> 01:18:29,732
perfectly good speed i have two gigabits per second for 15 bucks oh really nice it's
pretty

748
01:18:29,732 --> 01:18:36,852
cheap don't you think i do think like romania has the third fastest internet
infrastructure

749
01:18:36,852 --> 01:18:46,532
in the world after japan and korea korea yeah yeah it's very heterogeneous here so
there's

750
01:18:46,532 --> 01:18:53,732
like some places they have multiple providers and but yeah no they get it's
expensive too i think

751
01:18:57,332 --> 01:19:00,772
yeah these again these are big differences so like back then it was only like it was

752
01:19:00,772 --> 01:19:06,292
like roger veer in japan he had japan internet so he was a large blocker and then
luke was in

753
01:19:06,292 --> 01:19:12,372
like rural Luke Dashjr was in like rural florida so he had like these are also
things that were

754
01:19:12,372 --> 01:19:21,252
different there was no starlink i think there was also so don't quote me on this but
i remember

755
01:19:21,252 --> 01:19:27,492
hearing this from some dutch people that in the netherlands there is like the lowest
speed

756
01:19:27,492 --> 01:19:33,412
internet provider that still uses old dial-up infrastructure that they're selling
for a very

757
01:19:33,412 --> 01:19:38,692
high price compared to what that tech is really worth and vladimir vanderland is
from the

758
01:19:38,692 --> 01:19:44,612
netherlands so maybe that he was dealing with that reality when the block size wars
were happening

759
01:19:44,612 --> 01:19:51,652
even though he was pretty neutral on record possible but that's an interesting way
of

760
01:19:51,652 --> 01:19:58,612
framing it because you get to see different realities around the world and then you
shape

761
01:19:58,612 --> 01:20:03,732
your anyway i was all i was trying to say was that you asked about isn't it possible
something better

762
01:20:03,732 --> 01:20:09,492
would be but this is the thing is like i don't know if we even need any anything
better but of

763
01:20:09,492 --> 01:20:14,692
course that is possible but i was just thinking like okay we want to be able to let
everyone

764
01:20:14,692 --> 01:20:21,172
transact we want to be able to let other people do there should be some like
insanely huge block

765
01:20:22,052 --> 01:20:30,932
l2s that intentionally have a very expensive node and that very few people will run

766
01:20:31,252 --> 01:20:34,052
just so that there can be weird stuff happening there

767
01:20:35,652 --> 01:20:39,892
and there should be other stuff too like you know basically when you have a
custodial lightning

768
01:20:39,892 --> 01:20:47,332
it's basically an infinite uh infinite you would just call it like a centralized

769
01:20:47,892 --> 01:20:53,412
l2 that has the node cost is infinite because you can't run the full node this is
another thing

770
01:20:53,412 --> 01:20:59,172
to maybe bring up is that it turns out most people find running a real lightning
node to be

771
01:20:59,732 --> 01:21:07,092
to be very very very difficult i can confirm that like i think i have a raspberry pi
that

772
01:21:07,092 --> 01:21:12,052
i used to use for an experiment i ran a lightning node for about two years

773
01:21:13,012 --> 01:21:16,932
it was fun in the beginning we were opening channels with each other saying yeah
this is

774
01:21:16,932 --> 01:21:21,252
the future of payments whatever and then you have to deal with the reality that
people force close

775
01:21:21,252 --> 01:21:25,812
their channels and then you have to rebalance your channels and then you realize
that you're

776
01:21:25,812 --> 01:21:34,612
not routing anything and it's just like a full-time job after a while it's not fun
right

777
01:21:34,612 --> 01:21:40,772
so it's not very useful if you want to make a real apples to apples comparison you
know you put on

778
01:21:40,772 --> 01:21:50,292
your economics hat you have to say okay what's more expensive running a large block
l2 node

779
01:21:51,172 --> 01:21:59,252
where it does have higher you know hard disk and cpu usage and bandwidth
requirements

780
01:22:01,012 --> 01:22:04,132
yeah you but you just click a button and it just does all this work

781
01:22:06,212 --> 01:22:10,212
how hard is that in comparison to running a lightning node which may have

782
01:22:10,212 --> 01:22:17,092
smaller bandwidth smaller disk smaller cpu but it may be it may be like you have to
invest money

783
01:22:17,092 --> 01:22:21,652
you have to have liquidity you have to have actual funds there to open and close the
channels

784
01:22:21,652 --> 01:22:27,972
so the actual cost of running the lightning node in practice is probably more than
running you know

785
01:22:27,972 --> 01:22:33,652
whatever the bch node at scale or a bitcoin sv node even at scale i don't know about
that but

786
01:22:33,652 --> 01:22:40,612
i just think this is a so who are the real large blockers if you think about it well
they're gonna

787
01:22:40,612 --> 01:22:45,412
say you don't have to run your own node you can use something like phoenix which
lets you open

788
01:22:45,412 --> 01:22:52,852
your own channels at least and they're operating their own infrastructure but it
becomes centralized

789
01:22:52,852 --> 01:22:58,212
i think i'm responsible i think i'm responsible for paying one of the highest fees
in the history

790
01:22:58,212 --> 01:23:05,972
of lightning when i bought my car i used the lightning network on kraken and sending
large

791
01:23:05,972 --> 01:23:12,692
amounts made me pay like 50 fees on the lightning network and that's funny it's sort
of laughable

792
01:23:12,692 --> 01:23:18,692
i have screenshots of it just to remind myself that is laughable because i've used
this centralized

793
01:23:18,692 --> 01:23:25,172
service which allows me to open channels with them and they charge whatever fee they
want so it's not

794
01:23:25,172 --> 01:23:31,332
like i really have a choice i guess the choice that i had was to go back to onchain
so i could

795
01:23:31,332 --> 01:23:36,372
basically close my channels and withdraw my funds from lightning and pay just one
dollar for the

796
01:23:36,372 --> 01:23:44,612
onchain fee but i wanted to see what it's like to use kraken with lightning they
banned my account

797
01:23:44,612 --> 01:23:51,252
since then doesn't matter anymore thank you kraken they asked me for so here in
europe they have some

798
01:23:52,052 --> 01:23:56,692
aml requirements which are ridiculous like they ask you for payment statements going
back five

799
01:23:56,692 --> 01:24:02,132
years and i was like that's too bad that sounds like more of a europe thing than a
kraken thing

800
01:24:02,132 --> 01:24:07,012
but if i run into i just i heard that he they're starting like some kind of magic
the gathering

801
01:24:07,012 --> 01:24:15,572
tournament in las vegas so i'm gonna have some trading cards too i'll try to say

802
01:24:17,172 --> 01:24:21,412
bring back lads but it does isn't that more like a europe thing isn't it like
because sometimes we

803
01:24:21,412 --> 01:24:26,052
americans we hear about what's going on in europe and we just think wow really like
yeah you know

804
01:24:26,052 --> 01:24:29,572
that you can you can have a violent revolution and overthrow your government like we
did

805
01:24:30,132 --> 01:24:36,452
i remember it's always allowed i was talking with super testnet and i i told him i
think it was

806
01:24:36,452 --> 01:24:40,132
exactly the car conversation he was like why didn't you pay it with cash and i was
like

807
01:24:40,852 --> 01:24:47,812
we can only pay cash up to 2000 euro he's like what yeah i remember i got a year and
then it's

808
01:24:47,812 --> 01:24:55,972
like that was when the the limits were like new or something this was around 2017
and then earlier

809
01:24:55,972 --> 01:25:01,332
also i think maybe it's 20 it was like in italy and people were saying oh yeah you
know you can

810
01:25:01,332 --> 01:25:07,812
only take out so much from the atm oh it's the same here i think there's a daily
limit of 600

811
01:25:07,812 --> 01:25:12,052
they started doing that in the united states but i don't i don't remember i think it
was

812
01:25:12,052 --> 01:25:18,932
years afterwards now we're almost 10 years out of and i just remember at the time
when i was in

813
01:25:18,932 --> 01:25:23,652
italy i was just thinking like what the heck like that's not true is it and i was
trying to think

814
01:25:23,652 --> 01:25:28,052
like will they and i was like i guess i never really tried to just like withdraw as
much money

815
01:25:28,052 --> 01:25:34,772
as possible from the atm so i had no idea but then they started adding that but it's
i think

816
01:25:34,772 --> 01:25:39,252
that's mostly just more i i was always attributing that in america it did seem like
it was very

817
01:25:39,252 --> 01:25:46,452
organically tracking the we have a cashless society now you know because credit
cards were everywhere

818
01:25:47,012 --> 01:25:53,892
you had tap to pay you know you had the qr code scanner with covid so i i thought it
was tracking

819
01:25:53,892 --> 01:25:57,172
a little bit more organically whereas in europe it really did seem like they were
trying to

820
01:25:59,012 --> 01:26:02,612
got cash that people wanted people wanted to use cash but they were like

821
01:26:03,492 --> 01:26:11,172
powers that be were coming down coming down on the atm user that was the impression
like i was

822
01:26:11,172 --> 01:26:16,372
just thinking like what the heck and they're like yeah we can only withdraw like a
thousand euros

823
01:26:16,372 --> 01:26:21,252
like a month or something and i was like what i'm so confused i would have been like
maybe like you

824
01:26:21,252 --> 01:26:29,732
go to the but whatever who cares i care yeah but it's good for me when they were
doing that well

825
01:26:29,732 --> 01:26:33,732
that's the funny that was the joke that i told i was like oh this is wow europe's
gonna be big

826
01:26:34,452 --> 01:26:38,772
bitcoin is gonna be a big hit in europe i was like i hope they tighten them even
more

827
01:26:39,332 --> 01:26:46,852
you only get you only get 50 euros a year yeah but they're also regulating beyond
rams like i

828
01:26:46,852 --> 01:26:53,012
told you what happened with kraken they're just making it more difficult for people
to use it

829
01:26:53,012 --> 01:27:00,052
without giving a lot of silly papers and i just don't feel comfortable giving this
information

830
01:27:00,052 --> 01:27:05,812
because i know what's going to happen with the kyc data i think the largest

831
01:27:05,972 --> 01:27:12,772
company that deals with kyc data in europe got hacked like a month ago they have the
records of

832
01:27:12,772 --> 01:27:19,572
tens of millions of people or hundreds it's very depressing when it's like yeah the
french uh

833
01:27:20,692 --> 01:27:25,012
there's like the hack and then they have everyone's like home address and everything
that's

834
01:27:25,012 --> 01:27:31,492
it's kind of miserable oh and then like of course i don't know what it was but
somehow and then i

835
01:27:31,812 --> 01:27:39,332
but somehow and then i just get endless like robocalls and stuff somehow somehow my
phone

836
01:27:39,332 --> 01:27:45,092
number is uh i assume in the thing and people always try and they you know they try
various

837
01:27:45,892 --> 01:27:53,972
scams they've been trying to hack me for years they haven't succeeded yet and
sometimes you

838
01:27:53,972 --> 01:27:56,772
know because they they're calling they have a good story and sometimes they you know
often

839
01:27:56,772 --> 01:28:03,972
they've been they hack other people that you know especially on telegram yeah yeah
yeah you

840
01:28:03,972 --> 01:28:09,332
gotta be safe out there it's very very dangerous i got a message from an old friend
and he's like

841
01:28:09,332 --> 01:28:14,772
hey we haven't talked in a while we gotta catch up you want to do a call like okay
sure and then

842
01:28:14,772 --> 01:28:21,892
they send me this microsoft teams link which is slightly like messed up if you look
at it there's

843
01:28:21,892 --> 01:28:25,972
like two scrambled letters really tough yeah no it's tough they're good they're very
good zoom

844
01:28:25,972 --> 01:28:31,092
link they do it they do it full time and then they're like oh they're you need an
update or

845
01:28:31,092 --> 01:28:36,372
whatever they do it they scam you join the call and then they say oh we cannot hear
you can you

846
01:28:36,932 --> 01:28:41,652
update your zoom or whatever and you're gonna feel embarrassed you're gonna click
the link

847
01:28:41,652 --> 01:28:45,892
if you're using windows you're more exposed to this so it's better to not use
windows

848
01:28:46,772 --> 01:28:49,972
don't store any coins on a windows machine

849
01:28:51,412 --> 01:28:58,372
if you're using linux they're not competent enough i presume but i think they're
north

850
01:28:58,372 --> 01:29:04,532
korean hackers because when this happened to me last time i went to a search engine
and i typed

851
01:29:04,532 --> 01:29:14,692
king jong king jong on is that the name of the leader yeah i think right i searched
for gay porn

852
01:29:14,692 --> 01:29:19,652
involving him and of course there is there is the rule 34 on the internet there is

853
01:29:20,292 --> 01:29:25,812
porn of everything and i just copied that picture and sent it to the person
pretending to be my

854
01:29:25,812 --> 01:29:31,812
friend and they instantly blocked me every all the messages that vanished in front
of my eyes

855
01:29:31,812 --> 01:29:37,732
and i was like okay those were north korean hackers because if it was my friend
that's funny

856
01:29:37,732 --> 01:29:41,412
the friend would just be like what is this about yeah exactly he would be like oh
this is

857
01:29:41,492 --> 01:29:48,532
funny that's good they blocked me instantly cut out all the communications i think
it's

858
01:29:48,532 --> 01:29:53,412
a good approach except that you know i had to store that on my computer for a few
seconds

859
01:29:55,412 --> 01:30:01,172
and now it's in my browsing history search for gay porn involving yeah all of the uh

860
01:30:01,172 --> 01:30:04,692
just think what did all the cookies and everyone's gonna be you know

861
01:30:04,692 --> 01:30:10,532
the algorithm is gonna start feeding you that once it catches on oh no i don't want
to think

862
01:30:10,532 --> 01:30:17,652
about that that's fair anyway coming back to eCash what would you say is like the
bullish

863
01:30:17,652 --> 01:30:23,812
case for it do you see this because okay it's possible that what i've discovered is
only the

864
01:30:23,812 --> 01:30:29,812
tip of the iceberg as far as the derangements of bitcoin as far as all the smart
ideas out there

865
01:30:29,812 --> 01:30:36,132
that you know that like you know think about these people like a super test net or
whatever

866
01:30:36,292 --> 01:30:41,972
you know there's no way forward for the ideas and maybe it's like you know others
the stuff

867
01:30:41,972 --> 01:30:47,092
that's in vogue right now treasury companies whatever lightning network maybe that's
even

868
01:30:47,092 --> 01:30:52,372
million times worse than i thought like you know the treasury companies are a great
way

869
01:30:52,372 --> 01:30:57,732
hypothetically i'm not accusing anyone of a fraud i gotta like have like a fake
lawyer note that i

870
01:30:57,732 --> 01:31:03,172
fake read or something but you know treasury companies are a great way to just move
a bunch

871
01:31:03,172 --> 01:31:09,332
of money from people into a crypto wallet and then you just take all the btc or
whatever for

872
01:31:09,332 --> 01:31:16,532
yourself and then you say oh we got hacked or it didn't work out meanwhile it's just
embezzled the

873
01:31:16,532 --> 01:31:21,652
money so it's possible that there's there's all the existing stuff in btc is so much
worse

874
01:31:22,292 --> 01:31:28,132
and it's all being propped together by like that's that's a possibility and that
actually

875
01:31:28,132 --> 01:31:33,972
the underlying bitcoin idea is so strong that just by just by just getting rid of
that junk

876
01:31:34,932 --> 01:31:38,932
it will just rock and everything will be the way it was like in 2012-2014

877
01:31:38,932 --> 01:31:43,572
type era that would be just like huge optimism and that it's also possible that the

878
01:31:45,892 --> 01:31:51,252
the block size debate was more about how to handle disagreement in the block sizes

879
01:31:52,852 --> 01:31:57,412
and so it was like people naturally disagree but how do we handle the hard fork
without splitting

880
01:31:57,412 --> 01:32:03,732
the community and it's also possible that the only reason ethereum got big at all in
2016 was

881
01:32:03,732 --> 01:32:11,332
because the btc community was failing to resolve the block size dispute all of that
stuff would

882
01:32:11,332 --> 01:32:17,172
indicate that if you had a coin where there you could be have disputes settled by
different l2s

883
01:32:17,172 --> 01:32:25,092
that compete if you had that um then that would be like a really really really good
idea

884
01:32:26,052 --> 01:32:31,092
and that would mean that this would just like leap into action uh it's also possible
that many

885
01:32:31,092 --> 01:32:36,852
investors are tired of both bitcoin maximalism but they're also tired of terrible
altcoins

886
01:32:36,852 --> 01:32:42,852
so i'm reminded of when they did the video the bitcoin it was i think it was maybe
2023

887
01:32:42,852 --> 01:32:45,652
and the guy was like oh raise your hand if you own bitcoin and then he was like
great

888
01:32:45,652 --> 01:32:48,452
it sounds like raise your hand if you're on ethereum and the guy's like really oh at
the

889
01:32:48,452 --> 01:32:52,932
bitcoin conference because it's like 80 of the people also raised their hand so i
wouldn't have

890
01:32:53,012 --> 01:32:59,332
raised my hand in that situation but if you if most of the people in the in the
wider audience

891
01:32:59,972 --> 01:33:05,332
are actually just like curious about all the different coins now you say well here's
a coin

892
01:33:05,332 --> 01:33:14,292
that can do everything um that may you know attract people so yeah the bullish case
would be

893
01:33:14,292 --> 01:33:19,652
like that this just takes off and then and then we we start peeling off the rational
people from

894
01:33:20,212 --> 01:33:28,612
btc and we we amplify on btc like the lightning and the treasury company ossify
people and we

895
01:33:28,612 --> 01:33:34,052
just amplify them over there so the whole thing just becomes a lightning treasury
project and

896
01:33:34,052 --> 01:33:41,412
then it would just enter a death spiral it's already very difficult to be honest in
the btc

897
01:33:41,412 --> 01:33:50,852
community there's a war against the truth eCash holders or eCash users are going
to be able to

898
01:33:50,852 --> 01:33:55,732
claim their eCash one-to-one to the btc you don't even really have to say the word
claim like it

899
01:33:55,732 --> 01:34:00,852
will just it'll just be there waiting for you forever how will this play out so if
you're

900
01:34:00,852 --> 01:34:08,132
going to have the treasury companies doing something stupid what's going to happen
to the eCash

901
01:34:08,932 --> 01:34:14,852
well that if you don't own if you you need to own if you want to get the eCash like
if you

902
01:34:14,852 --> 01:34:20,132
have already custodied your btc with someone they will also have custody of the
eCash

903
01:34:21,652 --> 01:34:25,972
so that's already a decision that you might have made if you leave your money on an
exchange or

904
01:34:25,972 --> 01:34:31,812
you leave it with the etf they will get it and then you can either just you can sue
them or you

905
01:34:32,372 --> 01:34:41,812
can say i don't want that or you could withdraw to self-custody i think it would be
a lot of chaos

906
01:34:41,812 --> 01:34:46,292
but i i'm kind of looking forward to that part of it i think that that part will be
a fun chaos

907
01:34:47,892 --> 01:34:53,412
we need a little bit more like we gotta like you know we need to shake things up
just a little bit

908
01:34:53,412 --> 01:34:59,412
i don't know things where the way things are going is actually yeah are you trying
to get

909
01:34:59,412 --> 01:35:05,492
people to withdraw their bitcoins from exchanges paul i'm hoping the exchanges will
just say like

910
01:35:05,492 --> 01:35:10,212
we'll credit you will credit it to you i think that's not that hard because
especially because

911
01:35:10,212 --> 01:35:14,772
the l1 is the same as bitcoin core so it's not like their tech team will have to
like

912
01:35:14,772 --> 01:35:22,292
learn a whole new thing i think that's what's best um if they don't if they say that
they're

913
01:35:22,292 --> 01:35:27,252
not going to do that and you want the cash then you have to temporarily take it off

914
01:35:29,012 --> 01:35:35,732
the exchange for the at the time of the fork and then you can put it right back on
this is funny

915
01:35:35,732 --> 01:35:41,732
because back in the day the advice was to never have any money on the exchange and
if whenever

916
01:35:41,732 --> 01:35:46,852
you wanted to use the exchange you would put your money on swap it and then pull it
right back off

917
01:35:46,852 --> 01:35:55,172
because they're all so now i guess uh that's reversed but this could be actually
funny if

918
01:35:55,172 --> 01:36:01,332
eCash turns out to be a much stronger incentive to withdraw your coins from
exchanges than trace

919
01:36:01,332 --> 01:36:07,972
mayor's proof of keys like yeah to actually see the bitcoin blockchain getting a lot
of transactions

920
01:36:07,972 --> 01:36:11,892
out of exchanges into people's wallets just because they want to claim their eCash

921
01:36:12,692 --> 01:36:18,692
they have three months right right uh really four months because it's late august

922
01:36:18,692 --> 01:36:28,452
so four more months um and i think uh yeah and that's very true like what do you get
out of like

923
01:36:28,452 --> 01:36:33,412
this is the revenge of the self-custody because the network only recognizes you if
you have a

924
01:36:33,412 --> 01:36:40,452
UTXO on the network so so yeah if you have someone else but this is the point that
those

925
01:36:40,612 --> 01:36:45,972
like a trace mayor and those of us who say not your keys not your coins this is a
point that we

926
01:36:47,492 --> 01:36:57,172
have often um made and what we say is like you don't actually own any bitcoin if you
if someone

927
01:36:57,172 --> 01:37:01,332
else has the keys they own the bitcoin you have some weird relationship with them
you know what

928
01:37:01,332 --> 01:37:08,292
i mean like if you ever you have your coins with kraken bracken has a giant pile of
btc

929
01:37:08,932 --> 01:37:13,732
you have a relationship with kraken same with the etf the etf as all the bitcoin you
don't

930
01:37:13,732 --> 01:37:18,852
actually own any bitcoin same with the treasury companies if you own micro strategy
or strategy

931
01:37:21,732 --> 01:37:28,132
uh you don't own any bitcoin you own you know they own the bitcoin you have some
relationship

932
01:37:28,132 --> 01:37:33,092
with them use the point that says they say they they might give you some money later
as a result

933
01:37:33,092 --> 01:37:41,892
i think this is like the biggest takeaway from this interview like withdraw your
coins

934
01:37:41,892 --> 01:37:47,652
into self-custody or at least practice it or get used to the idea that you might
need to do it

935
01:37:47,652 --> 01:37:51,892
because first of all if you're really good at it then they probably will just credit
everyone and

936
01:37:51,892 --> 01:37:57,172
they won't the ad tissue won't come up but they might you know everyone is different
too they

937
01:37:57,172 --> 01:38:03,332
might that would be wild but you can imagine maybe what if kraken does and coinbase
doesn't

938
01:38:05,332 --> 01:38:11,892
i'm not sure uh you know who knows you can also petition your exchange if you're so
in love with

939
01:38:11,892 --> 01:38:18,852
your custodian you can petition them to support eCash on day one so they can claim
your coins

940
01:38:18,852 --> 01:38:23,332
they can appear yeah certainly that's very validating that'd be very validating for
eCash

941
01:38:23,332 --> 01:38:28,772
to be immediately supported on the exchange yeah sometimes the exchange is trying to
charge

942
01:38:28,772 --> 01:38:34,292
money to get uh listed i don't think we'll have to do that at all for a wide variety
of reasons

943
01:38:35,252 --> 01:38:39,252
one of which is there's already the coin shift l2 that already lets you swap

944
01:38:40,292 --> 01:38:45,652
btc for eCash but i the second one is that there will just be i i don't know it'll
just

945
01:38:45,652 --> 01:38:51,732
be chaos if they don't and especially with the transaction replay so so i anticipate
that

946
01:38:52,692 --> 01:38:59,252
some will so what is the claiming process like is it just like you just think you
know that you

947
01:38:59,252 --> 01:39:05,092
think the node you have to um yeah i guess there is a little bit of because when you
think the

948
01:39:05,092 --> 01:39:13,492
node it will have no idea what your private key is in the btc world but um if you
use the private

949
01:39:13,492 --> 01:39:17,812
key yeah and this is very important that i think a lot of people will not want to do
this on day

950
01:39:18,212 --> 01:39:25,412
one the smart thing to do if you're a normal person is to wait for a little while to
see

951
01:39:25,412 --> 01:39:29,572
you know because what i'm going to tell you oh yeah this isn't like a virus that
will just

952
01:39:29,572 --> 01:39:36,212
steal all your private keys but but yeah you need to use the private key from your
btc world

953
01:39:37,012 --> 01:39:43,172
in the new software do you have to sign the message from your wallet

954
01:39:43,572 --> 01:39:46,292
well technically every transaction is a file

955
01:39:47,732 --> 01:39:54,692
technically every transaction is a uh a message message you know so so yes

956
01:39:57,492 --> 01:39:59,492
so you're gonna download the eCash client

957
01:40:01,755 --> 01:40:05,475
so you're gonna download the eCash client which is yeah but it'll be again the l1
client it will be

958
01:40:06,275 --> 01:40:12,915
it'll be hard for bugs to hide there but possibly possible but the the l1 client
will basically just

959
01:40:12,915 --> 01:40:20,355
be bitcoin core with small block size and one weird transaction that alters
satoshi's coins

960
01:40:20,355 --> 01:40:25,475
and some other things like having a different name and having a one-time all
changing the

961
01:40:25,555 --> 01:40:30,755
difficulty to its minimum value that's just to create the hard fork in the first
place but other

962
01:40:30,755 --> 01:40:37,235
than that there won't be any changes so man did paul this is why i like you so much
and this is

963
01:40:37,235 --> 01:40:42,755
why i trust that you're honest because you're such a bad marketer like i was trying
to get you to say

964
01:40:42,755 --> 01:40:48,515
something positive like how to claim and you're like i would wait maybe it's a bad
idea maybe it's

965
01:40:48,515 --> 01:40:55,075
a virus okay man well yeah a lot of people would say oh yeah put your uh private
keys type your

966
01:40:55,075 --> 01:41:00,595
private keys into this thing like that in 99 out of 100 cases that'd be a virus but
yeah people can

967
01:41:00,595 --> 01:41:07,715
just uh uh you know you would what you would want to just wait like a few days
because

968
01:41:08,675 --> 01:41:13,715
just think about it like everyone would notice like when the

969
01:41:16,755 --> 01:41:22,115
when it had reached a point where you know what i mean like a if it were that type
of scam it

970
01:41:22,115 --> 01:41:23,875
wouldn't be able to last more than a few days

971
01:41:26,835 --> 01:41:30,115
because someone would pull the trigger and take all that but you know that's what
i'm trying to

972
01:41:30,115 --> 01:41:35,875
say so no one person should wait before manipulating their private keys but yeah all
you do is import

973
01:41:35,875 --> 01:41:43,315
them and then your coins are just waiting for you over there and if you use them in
our software

974
01:41:43,315 --> 01:41:45,955
you can split them off so that they stop replaying

975
01:41:49,795 --> 01:41:55,315
whereas if you send them somewhere in btc the eCash will probably also go there
even after

976
01:41:55,315 --> 01:42:03,075
the fork not necessarily but probably okay so in practical terms you export your
wallet file

977
01:42:03,075 --> 01:42:08,675
from bitcoin core and you import it into the cash client right right and the eCash
client

978
01:42:08,675 --> 01:42:14,595
just thinks it's the same chain history so it just says oh you also if you owned
7.123

979
01:42:15,715 --> 01:42:19,635
coins in btc world you own 7.123 in eCash world

980
01:42:21,155 --> 01:42:24,755
if you have a passphrase on your wallet will it ask for it

981
01:42:26,755 --> 01:42:33,155
uh that depends on how they set it up but yeah you need to get the actual private
keys

982
01:42:33,715 --> 01:42:38,915
so probably does it work with electrum

983
01:42:41,155 --> 01:42:46,195
i mean it should yes this is the same it's the same private key situation

984
01:42:48,515 --> 01:42:54,515
because this idea that you need to withdraw your bitcoin is very vague you need to
withdraw your

985
01:42:54,515 --> 01:43:00,675
bitcoin into bitcoin core most likely to enjoy the full functionality of claiming
your eCash

986
01:43:03,475 --> 01:43:10,515
so yeah i mean i think electrum is very good and doesn't require you to

987
01:43:11,715 --> 01:43:14,595
download the entire blockchain which is like 800 gigabytes

988
01:43:18,995 --> 01:43:25,635
let me ask you something else if let's say that in the first week of eCash's
existence

989
01:43:25,635 --> 01:43:32,915
you're gonna see people inscribing ordinals and creating collections of nfts on
eCash

990
01:43:32,995 --> 01:43:36,835
they're willing to pay the price because in dollar terms it's not very expensive

991
01:43:37,795 --> 01:43:41,475
what are you going to do about that are you going to encourage it no i'm incurring
yeah i

992
01:43:41,475 --> 01:43:47,395
encourage that all you all anyone who pays transaction fees is a real user so that's

993
01:43:47,395 --> 01:43:54,515
good that's a sign of health but they can effectively deter other users from
onboarding

994
01:43:54,515 --> 01:44:01,475
layer twos i don't really don't think so because the the thunder chain has a lot of

995
01:44:02,515 --> 01:44:08,195
space there and then there's a bit assets chain that is just for issuing stuff like
that but isn't

996
01:44:08,195 --> 01:44:15,795
there a peg in process where you need to get one transaction on the base layer well
the yeah you

997
01:44:15,795 --> 01:44:22,115
want on l1 then the l1 will be a little crowded at first and in fact one idea that i
don't think

998
01:44:22,115 --> 01:44:28,515
is not that um but basically the idea with the l1 is to have the equilibrium block
size be small

999
01:44:29,475 --> 01:44:34,115
so that i may have it shrink down i haven't you know this would be like kind of a
last

1000
01:44:34,115 --> 01:44:39,235
minute change but a very simple one um may have it shrink down to its one tenth like

1001
01:44:40,595 --> 01:44:47,155
over a short period of time you know over a period instead of instantly um just
because

1002
01:44:47,155 --> 01:44:54,355
it'll be crazy during the time of the split um but the goal is to have it just be in
equilibrium

1003
01:44:54,355 --> 01:45:02,835
the more decentralized small block version um now the question is like if l1 is
going to be crowded

1004
01:45:03,795 --> 01:45:09,875
but anyone can just send coins from l1 to l2 at any time and then you can onboard
people

1005
01:45:09,875 --> 01:45:13,635
directly to the l2 even without even if they were never on l1

1006
01:45:16,275 --> 01:45:20,915
so it doesn't really bother me that much of how how crowded l1 is

1007
01:45:20,915 --> 01:45:25,395
i think it actually settled down in l1 um at some point

1008
01:45:28,115 --> 01:45:33,955
in your design for Drivechains on bitcoin you decided for 13 000 blocks as a number
that

1009
01:45:34,675 --> 01:45:37,555
guarantees a reasonable amount of security

1010
01:45:39,555 --> 01:45:44,835
did you decide to stick to 13 000 for eCash because i recall you said that it could
be

1011
01:45:45,475 --> 01:45:53,395
safe even with much less than that i did um it's true that originally it was two to
four weeks

1012
01:45:54,275 --> 01:45:56,915
then i changed it to three to six months because people brought up

1013
01:45:57,875 --> 01:46:06,515
this concern about dishonest miners and um but yeah then they stepped they still
kept complaining

1014
01:46:06,515 --> 01:46:11,315
about it so i think the it's possible they had no idea what they were complaining
about really

1015
01:46:11,315 --> 01:46:17,715
but i i decided to keep it anyway okay so basically what you're gonna be running

1016
01:46:18,755 --> 01:46:25,315
in terms of BIP300 on eCash is exactly what can be activated off the shelf on
bitcoin

1017
01:46:26,035 --> 01:46:27,635
with no modifications

1018
01:46:30,515 --> 01:46:38,195
yeah the l1 will be the same as bitcoin or and the the BIP300 part will be
activated by the

1019
01:46:39,315 --> 01:46:43,395
Core Untouched Soft Fork by the activator that's also the same that will be exactly

1020
01:46:43,395 --> 01:46:45,555
the same way how you you would activate it on btc

1021
01:46:47,955 --> 01:46:52,995
now it's interesting because the Zcash team which also forked bitcoin but to start a
new

1022
01:46:52,995 --> 01:46:58,435
blockchain they also made sure that they maintain compatibility one-to-one with
bitcoin

1023
01:46:58,995 --> 01:47:02,915
and basically what they're building is the latest version of zero cash which was

1024
01:47:03,715 --> 01:47:09,075
the paper that was first proposed for bitcoin and they're still hoping that someday
bitcoin

1025
01:47:09,075 --> 01:47:15,155
is going to pick it up they keep on improving it but it's still one-to-one
compatible with

1026
01:47:15,155 --> 01:47:20,355
bitcoin if that ever becomes part of the conversation so you're taking the same
approach

1027
01:47:23,475 --> 01:47:27,475
right well it's easier to just maintain one thing

1028
01:47:29,715 --> 01:47:32,915
and yeah i do think it's possible that

1029
01:47:34,995 --> 01:47:40,035
you know it's still possible that miners will just decide uh before yeah before i go
i guess

1030
01:47:40,035 --> 01:47:43,955
i should i plug my i have an event i'm not going to talk about i'm certainly not
going

1031
01:47:43,955 --> 01:47:49,875
to talk about this while on stage in las vegas because i'm in speaking in las vegas

1032
01:47:50,595 --> 01:47:57,955
so day three at 3 p.m uh but on day two i have a little thing in the Satoshi social
room i have

1033
01:47:57,955 --> 01:48:06,835
like a little party the end of day two free drinks and it's from 5 p.m to 7 p.m it's
possible

1034
01:48:06,835 --> 01:48:11,315
that i thought the 51 hashrate happy hour so it's possible that all the miners will
just meet there

1035
01:48:11,315 --> 01:48:16,835
and just you know start to activate soft forks but as i mentioned earlier it would
require more

1036
01:48:16,835 --> 01:48:22,595
than just activating the soft forks we have to have like an actual cultural
revolution in btc

1037
01:48:22,595 --> 01:48:28,435
where people just admit that not only was lightning network not only does it not
work but it was a

1038
01:48:28,435 --> 01:48:34,835
mistake and it was a mistake to shill it so hard and it was a mistake to like kind
of cancel people

1039
01:48:34,835 --> 01:48:41,555
for telling the truth about how terrible it is and but that's exactly what we did
with many other

1040
01:48:41,555 --> 01:48:47,555
things you know the soft fork process like all the like cool people have been kind
of kicked out

1041
01:48:47,555 --> 01:48:52,835
and all the villains have just buried themselves in but i only have a little bit
more time

1042
01:48:55,155 --> 01:49:04,515
yeah so i'm gonna make the most of it um do you think you're gonna be uninvited from
events now

1043
01:49:04,515 --> 01:49:08,995
that you're basically the creator it's a good question but i think who even cares
because at

1044
01:49:08,995 --> 01:49:12,995
this point all the events are kind of terrible and you know and like everyone's like
running out

1045
01:49:12,995 --> 01:49:18,435
of money like everything has been done and what's the point of coming to an event if
it's just about

1046
01:49:18,435 --> 01:49:23,475
the treasury companies or something you know what i mean or if it's just a lightning
event

1047
01:49:23,475 --> 01:49:27,235
you know what so i don't know like what are the good events anymore

1048
01:49:30,275 --> 01:49:35,155
i've had fun in ethereum conferences to be honest because that's where you discover
people

1049
01:49:35,155 --> 01:49:41,395
building without asking for permission and sometimes if michael steller succeeds in
defining

1050
01:49:41,395 --> 01:49:48,115
bitcoin as like a very tame thing then there's no reason to have a conference you
know there's

1051
01:49:48,115 --> 01:49:51,475
no reason for people to even talk about it there's no reason to have a conversation
about it like no

1052
01:49:51,475 --> 01:49:56,115
one has a conversation about like two by fours or something you know what i mean you
have a

1053
01:49:56,115 --> 01:50:04,115
conversation about like a great ethical dispute or like a new law or like a war or
something or

1054
01:50:04,115 --> 01:50:09,635
business model something creative a new piece of art new piece of music that's what
you'd have a

1055
01:50:09,635 --> 01:50:15,795
discussion about but if it's something's a settled issue and it's a boring one then
there's no reason

1056
01:50:15,795 --> 01:50:21,955
to have any of this culture there's no reason to have any parties or any conferences
or any magazines

1057
01:50:22,995 --> 01:50:26,755
or any tweets because there's nothing to talk about bitcoin is just a stock ticker

1058
01:50:28,755 --> 01:50:32,515
i have two more questions and i'll let you go one of them can be answered

1059
01:50:32,515 --> 01:50:36,835
quite quickly the other one could be another hour of conversation but it's your
challenge to

1060
01:50:38,195 --> 01:50:43,715
basically answer in a short manner i'll start with the short one where can people

1061
01:50:43,715 --> 01:50:49,395
assuming that they became interested in eCash right now and they want to buy some
coins where

1062
01:50:49,395 --> 01:50:58,355
can they do that i'm not sure that people will unless they are an accredited
investor or they're

1063
01:50:58,355 --> 01:51:08,275
outside the us but yeah you should definitely follow me on twitter Truthcoin on
twitter and

1064
01:51:08,275 --> 01:51:15,955
the website is eCash.com so i would stay glued to that for updates is it still

1065
01:51:17,795 --> 01:51:23,715
hidden under a password or is it public i'm going to have a most of it i'm going to
have a lot of it

1066
01:51:23,715 --> 01:51:30,675
unhidden by the time the announcement is made okay now the second question just for
the record

1067
01:51:30,675 --> 01:51:37,555
how much time do you have right now like a little bit okay right now you're the ceo
of layer two

1068
01:51:37,555 --> 01:51:42,995
labs and you're launching an altcoin which is called eCash which is competing with
bitcoin

1069
01:51:43,555 --> 01:51:50,915
i can argue that this is a centralized project and what will it take or at what
point will you

1070
01:51:50,915 --> 01:51:56,275
decide that you can step down and the project can become truly decentralized

1071
01:51:58,355 --> 01:52:05,315
well that's a good question i think when whenever anything is created it has to
start centralized

1072
01:52:06,195 --> 01:52:10,915
you know everyone like william shakespeare he invented different words so he was
like the

1073
01:52:10,915 --> 01:52:18,515
inventor of the word like elbow and eyeball for example but then once they're in use
there's not

1074
01:52:18,515 --> 01:52:23,315
so i actually think that we this the what the Drivechain idea does that no that no
one else

1075
01:52:23,315 --> 01:52:28,595
has done before it actually does decentralized development because before everyone
has their

1076
01:52:29,875 --> 01:52:35,555
their their dev team and someone has to decide what the next version of the full
node software is

1077
01:52:36,835 --> 01:52:41,635
and if you dissent from that you kind of have to hard fork and do or start an
altcoin and do your

1078
01:52:41,635 --> 01:52:48,995
own project and so really this is the first project to decentralize development and
allow

1079
01:52:48,995 --> 01:52:54,675
different developers that that disagree with each other to mostly so i think that
that

1080
01:52:56,115 --> 01:53:02,595
that's a very important point to keep in mind the and also reducing the block size
that was my old

1081
01:53:02,595 --> 01:53:07,955
definition of node centralization that makes it easier to run a node that increases
decentralization

1082
01:53:07,955 --> 01:53:15,875
i think my hope is that the the BIP300 the CUSF activator i think that that is a
very

1083
01:53:15,875 --> 01:53:24,835
completable project and so that thing can ossify so to speak and then with l1 being
copy of bitcoin

1084
01:53:24,835 --> 01:53:30,915
core that also can kind of run basically on autopilot and then even our front end

1085
01:53:31,875 --> 01:53:38,675
graphical user interface i imagine a lot of work being done on that but it's since
it's a separate

1086
01:53:38,675 --> 01:53:44,675
modular graphical user interface people could easily fork that at the drop of a hat
and make

1087
01:53:44,675 --> 01:53:51,635
it make their own so i actually think it would be very very soon after the moment of
the fork

1088
01:53:51,635 --> 01:53:59,075
that it will just i mean it may almost instantly become the most decentralized
cryptocurrency

1089
01:53:59,955 --> 01:54:06,835
but yeah in order to bring it from not existing into the world in a viable way it
doesn't require

1090
01:54:08,195 --> 01:54:14,115
someone to do something so yeah there's uh there's a transition period but yeah i
think this is much

1091
01:54:14,115 --> 01:54:18,195
better than like i hated when like the ic people would do this stuff they get all
this money in

1092
01:54:18,195 --> 01:54:24,995
advance then stuff would take a long time before the project was ready to launch so
i didn't like

1093
01:54:24,995 --> 01:54:26,195
so i didn't like that at all

1094
01:54:29,155 --> 01:54:35,315
yeah can you disclose how large the team of developers is currently working on
building

1095
01:54:35,315 --> 01:54:42,595
eCash and how many developers you can onboard and is incentivized to build let's
say leaving

1096
01:54:42,595 --> 01:54:47,795
ethereum or Zcash or whatever to build on eCash well i think the big draw is that

1097
01:54:48,675 --> 01:54:55,955
why would you i think the big draw is that if in a world where everyone you know
there's there's one

1098
01:54:55,955 --> 01:55:01,315
coin that can kind of do everything and then everything else is sort of fractured
it's it's

1099
01:55:01,315 --> 01:55:06,355
like what has what maximizes the chance of building something that users will
actually use

1100
01:55:07,475 --> 01:55:12,195
and it could easily someone could easily say oh ethereum already has these strong
network effects

1101
01:55:12,195 --> 01:55:15,795
ethereum has this history of running it's the number two i would totally if someone
were to

1102
01:55:15,795 --> 01:55:21,555
believe that i would say that makes a lot of sense and they should uh think that
that's a

1103
01:55:21,555 --> 01:55:27,715
very logical thing to think but i also think it's kind of like you know btc is the
number one

1104
01:55:27,715 --> 01:55:34,275
cryptocurrency community now we're going to have it's going to be btc but you can
also do all these

1105
01:55:34,275 --> 01:55:39,155
things so why not just take all the ideas that actually work plug them in here i
think the big

1106
01:55:39,395 --> 01:55:46,915
work plug them in here i think the big draw is not like hiring developers and
getting them to

1107
01:55:46,915 --> 01:55:52,755
do cool projects we really want if a developer has an idea that they really like and
they think

1108
01:55:52,755 --> 01:55:58,995
is good they want to stand out and get recognition for that and that's part of what
this offers

1109
01:55:59,555 --> 01:56:03,155
so in addition to we are doing all that stuff we have full-time to go we have around
nine

1110
01:56:03,795 --> 01:56:11,315
or so full-time developers um but just working on all different things

1111
01:56:13,075 --> 01:56:19,235
but i think if you it's like trying to make something happen that's just not going
to

1112
01:56:19,235 --> 01:56:22,275
happen if you tried to like hire the most developers and say produce all the best

1113
01:56:22,915 --> 01:56:30,515
software what we're really looking for is like somewhere out there the the you know
15 year

1114
01:56:30,595 --> 01:56:36,755
old genius or whatever and they have this new project if they launch it as a new l2
sidechain

1115
01:56:36,755 --> 01:56:43,795
everyone will know that it's not a pump and dump oh that's a good point and so then
this is their

1116
01:56:43,795 --> 01:56:50,035
way to actually sort themselves to the top of the list of people's attention and
then if the

1117
01:56:50,035 --> 01:56:55,555
project's good it will attract users and we want to have people who we want to avoid
the

1118
01:56:56,275 --> 01:57:05,235
we want to avoid like a kind of political world of uh like github pull request uh

1119
01:57:06,915 --> 01:57:08,115
political development

1120
01:57:10,355 --> 01:57:13,795
yeah just think of all these people like we mentioned before all the frustrated
developers

1121
01:57:13,795 --> 01:57:18,355
so these are like when you have that creative idea you want to be able to exercise
it

1122
01:57:18,355 --> 01:57:26,355
i completely agree and so then what if you're like working on like number 75 coin on
coin market

1123
01:57:26,355 --> 01:57:31,555
cap you have a really really good idea you think it's really good but just
commercially it's so

1124
01:57:31,555 --> 01:57:37,475
difficult to make okay so you're working on bitcoin sv which is like i don't even
know where it is

1125
01:57:37,475 --> 01:57:44,355
on coin market cap but it's it's wherever it is it's on the second page or something
and

1126
01:57:44,515 --> 01:57:50,915
it's wherever it is it's on the second page or something and um but you have a
really good idea

1127
01:57:52,515 --> 01:57:57,715
well what do you do are you really gonna stick stay on on that or maybe you should
try it depends

1128
01:57:57,715 --> 01:58:05,555
on if everyone else is trying as well but you should try um on a coin if other
people are also

1129
01:58:05,555 --> 01:58:10,275
trying there so yeah i'm hoping that the hard fork is still as viable now as it was
in 2017

1130
01:58:11,155 --> 01:58:20,355
when it became easily you know a leaderboard uh point i think it's culturally taboo
but this

1131
01:58:21,875 --> 01:58:29,235
this is like an advantage of the project because you're breaking the conventional
you're proving

1132
01:58:29,235 --> 01:58:37,235
that there's still some way of protesting basically against the policy of bitcoin
core and the way

1133
01:58:37,635 --> 01:58:44,515
it's been managed you can compete and basically you can help each other if you
remember there was

1134
01:58:44,515 --> 01:58:50,675
that moment in 2018 when a bitcoin cash developer was able to find an inflation bug
in bitcoin core

1135
01:58:52,275 --> 01:58:58,915
and you can argue that this was a net benefit the fact that bitcoin cash was able to
do that

1136
01:58:58,915 --> 01:59:03,235
or maybe you can argue that if there was the bitcoin cash developer still working on
bitcoin

1137
01:59:03,875 --> 01:59:09,715
maybe that that would never happen there's no way of knowing it maybe it's
counterfactual

1138
01:59:10,435 --> 01:59:15,395
but you're gonna have more developers working on the same codebase except that it
has smaller blocks

1139
01:59:15,395 --> 01:59:25,075
but still there's more eyeballs and more actually smart people rocking with this
codebase

1140
01:59:25,715 --> 01:59:34,675
and i i genuinely hope that it's going to be a worthy competitor if and i do believe
that

1141
01:59:34,675 --> 01:59:40,515
eCash is more interesting than bitcoin cash if it's going to have the same market
cap as

1142
01:59:40,515 --> 01:59:47,875
bitcoin cash right now bitcoin cash is at i'm actually looking so for the record you
mentioned

1143
01:59:47,875 --> 01:59:55,315
bsv it's 110 in the ranking of coins on the second page of coin market cap bitcoin
cash is

1144
01:59:55,315 --> 02:00:01,875
actually 13th in a world where and i i present this argument a lot in the world
where bitcoin

1145
02:00:01,875 --> 02:00:09,475
is winning bitcoin cash would be also like below the top 100 ranking right now
bitcoin cash is

1146
02:00:09,475 --> 02:00:20,755
bigger than monero at 8.9 billion dollars and the price per coin is 445 so there is
a market for

1147
02:00:20,755 --> 02:00:27,875
this and i do believe that ultimately eCash is more useful because it has the
Drivechains and

1148
02:00:27,875 --> 02:00:34,595
the developers can build a lot of really cool stuff at the same time bitcoin cash
has more

1149
02:00:34,595 --> 02:00:40,835
of a network effect has been on the market for nine years now and is listed on
payments

1150
02:00:40,835 --> 02:00:45,395
processors and exchanges and whatever so there's a lot of work to do on this front

1151
02:00:46,835 --> 02:00:53,155
but technologically and i like to think that i'm a technologist i'm not much of an
austrian

1152
02:00:53,155 --> 02:01:02,675
economist i'm not much of maybe that i am a bit of a cypherpunk but i do like the
idea of progressing

1153
02:01:02,675 --> 02:01:11,395
through technology and i reject the concept that one iteration that we had 17 years
ago is going to

1154
02:01:11,395 --> 02:01:17,155
be permanently the one that will prevail and we should not touch it or update it or
change it

1155
02:01:17,795 --> 02:01:25,155
i think it's software and it does need to change with the times and become better
and while i agree

1156
02:01:25,155 --> 02:01:30,435
with the monetary policy i can also disagree with some design choices for the
software

1157
02:01:31,235 --> 02:01:36,275
so i wish you all the luck in the world paul not just because once again i'm
invested in this

1158
02:01:36,275 --> 02:01:43,955
project not with a lot but i still have skin in the game and i hope that

1159
02:01:46,115 --> 02:01:51,315
i guess the best case scenario for it is that it's gonna flip bitcoin if bitcoin is
gonna fail

1160
02:01:51,315 --> 02:01:58,195
so miserably this can actually become the dominant currency if it's gonna be just as
big as bitcoin

1161
02:01:58,995 --> 02:02:06,675
cash there's a lot of value in that and right um so that's kind of some important
stuff to keep in

1162
02:02:06,675 --> 02:02:13,715
mind is that you know it would still be a success if it just forces us to have a
conversation about

1163
02:02:13,715 --> 02:02:21,875
the derangements if it pushes bitcoin to improve like i presume you're not gonna
sell your bitcoin

1164
02:02:21,875 --> 02:02:28,275
for eCash right right yeah i don't think people should necessarily do that so if
you're gonna be

1165
02:02:28,275 --> 02:02:33,955
holding both coins and one of them is pushing the other to improve and gets more
users more

1166
02:02:33,955 --> 02:02:41,075
developers more value overall i think it's a net benefit so if anything i see it as
a hedge

1167
02:02:41,875 --> 02:02:50,195
kind of investment or inverse whatever you call it i'm not the investor type either
i just get

1168
02:02:50,195 --> 02:02:58,515
excited about tech so yeah if you think this is a good idea let me know in the
comments

1169
02:02:58,515 --> 02:03:02,435
let me know what you think let me know if there's anything that we might have missed

1170
02:03:03,475 --> 02:03:09,715
i know it's gonna be very controversial once everyone finds out and they're gonna
discover

1171
02:03:09,715 --> 02:03:15,235
all the details one by one and i know because i had the same process like i was
shocked at first

1172
02:03:15,235 --> 02:03:22,035
like wait a second the hard fork we don't do that anymore nobody's gonna support
this and

1173
02:03:22,035 --> 02:03:26,435
you're gonna burn your reputation poll and nobody's gonna want to invite you to
conferences anymore

1174
02:03:27,555 --> 02:03:34,915
and then i discovered the whole shad thing which is satoshi half airdrop which means
that satoshi

1175
02:03:34,915 --> 02:03:42,755
only gets half of his coins while everyone gets one-to-one their bitcoin and eCash
i mean that

1176
02:03:42,755 --> 02:03:48,755
that's also something that takes time to think and fully digest but it's very hard
to bootstrap

1177
02:03:48,755 --> 02:03:55,475
something and when you think about it all the pure forks if anything were not very
successful

1178
02:03:55,475 --> 02:04:01,475
in this space and it's the harsh reality like ethereum classic you can argue it was
much fairer

1179
02:04:01,475 --> 02:04:09,555
than ethereum eth but it did not have the same dev team did not have the same
funding it was just

1180
02:04:10,355 --> 02:04:17,475
a lot of virtue signaling that did not produce too much i i don't want to you know
knock on them

1181
02:04:17,475 --> 02:04:23,955
i consider some of them to be friends of mine but it just was not as disruptive as
ethereum

1182
02:04:23,955 --> 02:04:28,675
sometimes the fact that you have a lot of money to pay developers to do research and
build stuff

1183
02:04:29,715 --> 02:04:35,395
there's a lot of value in that and the space progresses because of it and bitcoin
benefited

1184
02:04:36,035 --> 02:04:42,195
indirectly from it from ethereum now we have some ideas that are coming back to
bitcoin there are

1185
02:04:42,195 --> 02:04:50,595
some good ideas from ethereum which are existent in eCash on what you call it it's
not each side

1186
02:04:50,595 --> 02:05:00,515
anymore i know each side was our clone of ethereum yeah so you gave up on that well
i you know i

1187
02:05:00,595 --> 02:05:06,515
wasn't personally that interested in it so even though we made it you can still look
up the old

1188
02:05:06,515 --> 02:05:12,995
version but i just didn't really but well i'm sure either someone will bring it back
some evm

1189
02:05:14,755 --> 02:05:19,235
because it's so popular but i i wasn't that interested in i was what i was thinking
was

1190
02:05:19,235 --> 02:05:24,675
let's what are the actual things that people use ethereum for you know that like the
assets and

1191
02:05:24,675 --> 02:05:32,675
identity and can we just specialize on those but yeah well there's gonna have to be
an evm

1192
02:05:34,355 --> 02:05:36,675
l2 but i was just thinking i don't really want it but that's the other

1193
02:05:36,675 --> 02:05:41,075
thing about this project is you know nothing is when people want to

1194
02:05:43,955 --> 02:05:49,635
like you know if people think you know that eCash should do this or should do
something else

1195
02:05:50,115 --> 02:05:57,555
you know nothing's stopping you from also doing that but yeah we had one at some
point called

1196
02:05:57,555 --> 02:06:02,355
eth side i personally lost interest in it because i don't really think anything
that's happening on

1197
02:06:02,355 --> 02:06:06,275
ethereum is actually that interesting if you really think about it a lot of the
stuff that

1198
02:06:06,275 --> 02:06:15,875
they work on is like trying to do scalability via optimistic roll-ups but that's
very similar

1199
02:06:16,195 --> 02:06:22,595
but that's very similar to what Drivechain has been the whole time for the last 10
years so i

1200
02:06:22,595 --> 02:06:27,955
already think i i already think i've covered that whole thing and even the idea that
you

1201
02:06:27,955 --> 02:06:34,355
could do whatever you want with ethereum it's like i'll just do a more specific
version of that

1202
02:06:35,155 --> 02:06:43,875
with sidechain itself yeah so anyway i have to go though yeah yeah yeah the fact
that i knew about

1203
02:06:43,875 --> 02:06:47,555
eth side is just proof that i've been following this project for a long time

1204
02:06:48,195 --> 02:06:54,595
i'm a big fan of it that's why i invested in it i i hope it succeeds check it out
not financial

1205
02:06:54,595 --> 02:07:03,635
advice but give it like a few nights of thinking like huh what if this works what if
it doesn't

1206
02:07:03,635 --> 02:07:10,755
there's risk involved but you never accomplish anything significant i'll be back for
the

1207
02:07:11,395 --> 02:07:17,875
controversy we can do a long oh yeah once people start reacting to this we can do
another episode

1208
02:07:18,835 --> 02:07:23,955
yeah i'm sure there'll be some some funny stuff to come out of it thank you very
much paul thanks

1209
02:07:23,955 --> 02:07:29,315
for everyone listening to this thanks to the sponsors LayerTwo Labs obviously brains
hash

1210
02:07:29,315 --> 02:07:36,675
power you can use it to actually mine eCash orange rock i hope they list the cash
for trading

1211
02:07:36,995 --> 02:07:44,515
cake wallet i hope they list eCash for spv and site tip.ai i hope that they let
people swap

1212
02:07:44,515 --> 02:07:50,195
anything into eCash thank you very much for listening i'll see you in the next one
best of

1213
02:07:50,195 --> 02:07:54,035
luck paul thank you

1214
02:08:06,675 --> 02:08:07,175
you