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Hello and welcome to Drivechain Twitter Spaces.

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This is Henry at LayerTwo Labs.

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We are excited to share with you another conversation on BIP300 and BIP301,

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a transformative opportunity for Bitcoin to gain much greater extensibility,

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enabling fascinating and exciting privacy protocols, scaling protocols, Oracle protocols, DNS protocols, and much more, all built on Bitcoin.

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As Dr. Adam Back of Blockstream has described, Drivechain is about innovation, maximalism, and avoiding altcoin seigniorage.

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That great description can be elaborated upon in this way, I would say,

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that Drivechain is all about maximizing the potential of what can be built on blockchains,

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while at the same time completely trying to eliminate altcoin seigniorage.

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So what is altcoin seigniorage?

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Altcoin seigniorage is where someone creates a peer-to-peer protocol in which there is a native token and a monetary supply.

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And Bitcoin was the first blockchain with a native asset, and that created absolute scarcity,

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and ever since then, there has been a proliferation of additional protocols,

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and almost all of them have not been Bitcoin sidechains.

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Instead, each of these protocols has been, in most cases, an independent blockchain,

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or a blockchain built on top of another blockchain that isn't Bitcoin.

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However, Bitcoin, because of its fantastic fundamental attributes,

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has been where most of the value accrual has occurred throughout the history of blockchain.

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And what Drivechain aspires to do is make Bitcoin the one-stop shop for all of the potential building that can be going on in the blockchain realm.

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So instead of building only a simple protocol on the Bitcoin blockchain with a single layer,

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instead, in addition to Bitcoin and in addition to Lightning,

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there can be a vast array of fascinating and very productive protocols built on top of Bitcoin.

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And in the case of sidechains, each of them is a protocol, each of them is a blockchain,

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because every blockchain is a protocol.

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However, with sidechains, the fascinating event can be that the blockchains that are sidechains on Bitcoin

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don't have a native token different than Bitcoin.

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So when the sidechain is first created using Drivechain, there would be no tokens on the blockchain.

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And then tokens would be sent one by one from the main chain of Bitcoin to the sidechain.

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So, for example, at the first moment in time, when the sidechain is created, there would be no tokens on it.

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And then Bitcoiners would send their Bitcoin through the two-way peg,

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and thereby tokens would be created on the sidechain,

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while at the same time an equal number of tokens would be locked in the two-way peg called hashrate escrow.

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And after that, when the Bitcoiners are finished using the sidechain protocol,

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they would be able to send their tokens back through the two-way peg,

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and this would burn tokens on the sidechain while releasing them on the mainchain.

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Thereby, this design would achieve at all times the maintenance of 21 million

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as the limit of Bitcoin tokens universally throughout the whole system,

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throughout the ecosystem of the mainchain and its multitudinous sidechains.

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So that's the Drivechain vision.

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We have one mainchain called the Layer 1, and then the sidechains.

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There could be dozens of them, even hundreds.

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And the total number of Bitcoin throughout all of these blockchains,

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both the mainchain and all the sidechains,

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the total number of tokens of Bitcoin would be 21 million, never any more.

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So that's why Dr. Back described Drivechain in that way,

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referring to it as innovation maximalism with altcoin-seniorage avoidance,

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because we avoid the altcoin-seniorage.

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So if someone wants to build an exciting new privacy protocol

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or an exciting new protocol for scaling like Bitcoin with large blocks

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or other kinds of exciting protocols, there would be no minting of new tokens.

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Instead, there would only be the 21 million limit of Bitcoin tokens.

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And that's what's exciting because this enables Bitcoin potentially

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to absorb all of the innovation and all of the value and fees and users

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and excitement that altcoins have had.

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All of that could be internalized to Bitcoin.

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All of it could be absorbed by Bitcoin, making Bitcoin much bigger and stronger.

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It's a huge opportunity for Bitcoin.

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And we're excited to be talking about it today.

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Welcome to the stage, my colleague, Ian.

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How's it going, man?

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Pretty good. How are you?

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Pretty good. Pretty good.

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Another day, another drivechain conversation.

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I mean, it's pretty awesome, don't you feel?

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Like at this moment, we're seeing people tweeting about sidechains like today.

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Adam Back, one of the coolest names in all of Bitcoin,

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tweeted, sidechains now!

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It's great, isn't it?

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Yes.

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Yeah, go ahead.

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He has a sidechain.

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Blockstream is one of the leaders in the sidechain space.

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They had a brilliant paper published in 2014 on sidechains.

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And then years later, they published another excellent paper on their project,

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which is called Liquid, which is they're really doing a great job

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at trying to explore the possibilities for sidechains without a soft fork.

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But some thinkers at Blockstream, including Adam Back,

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are excited about the possibilities that drivechain can bring.

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Right.

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And what I was thinking is, like, what can we do to get drivechain onto Bitcoin?

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For instance, Chad GPT says that getting drivechain implemented onto Bitcoin

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would be a significant undertaking due to the decentralized nature of the network.

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But is it decentralized truly if it's hard to change it?

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Or does that mean it is actually more decentralized because it's hard to change?

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Yeah, the whole discourse on decentralization is very complicated

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because there is no universal understanding of what the word decentralization means.

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So among the various articles and essays that have been written

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about the meaning of the word decentralization,

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one of the most notable, I think, is Paul Sztorc's article from 2015

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called Measuring Decentralization.

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So what he tries to do in that article is identify a concrete metric

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for the decentralization of Bitcoin.

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And he considers various possibilities,

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possibilities around metrics that measure the activity in mining,

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metrics that measure the number of nodes on the network, things like that.

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And the metric that he arrives at is this notion that

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as the cost economically of a Bitcoin full node goes down,

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then Bitcoin's decentralization goes up.

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So that's the metric that one can arrive at when contemplating

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what does decentralization really mean?

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So I think that's a compelling answer to the question of what is decentralization?

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So we can say that when it's cheaper to validate Bitcoin,

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meaning when the cost of a full node goes down because the blockchain is lightweight,

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then Bitcoin has high decentralization.

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So people who like this metric, who like this understanding,

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they tend to say that what's really good is having a small block size,

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and that increases the decentralization of Bitcoin.

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But as I said, everyone seems to have a different understanding of decentralization

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and this field of crypto economics is so new

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that there is no consensus right now on what the word means.

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So Balaji Srivasanan, one of the pundits in the crypto space,

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he once published an article that talked about how decentralization has

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like eight different components or variables,

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and he had this elaborate formula for talking about it.

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So there's all different opinions on what it is.

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But the one I'm going with, the one that I think drive-changers tend to like,

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is that Bitcoin's decentralization increases when the economic cost

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of owning a full node goes down.

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And that means the cost of the computers, the cost of the bandwidth, things like that.

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When the total cost of being a full node running Bitcoin goes down,

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then Bitcoin is more decentralized.

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And to grok it, to grok the connection between the cost of a full node

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and the amount of decentralization,

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all we have to do is remember that the word is decentralized.

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It kind of refers to like physical space, like how far are you from something.

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And basically, suppose you want to validate Bitcoin,

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suppose you want to know that you've been paid.

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Well, if it's very cheap to do that, then you don't have to ask anyone else.

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You don't have to go anywhere.

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You don't have to call up a friend.

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You can just validate independently, so you don't have to go anywhere.

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So that decentralizes the network in that sense,

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that each party locally can validate that he or she has been paid Bitcoin,

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and that decentralizes the network.

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What do you think about that proposition

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that decentralization has to do with the economic cost?

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I see that word decentralization tossed around a lot.

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I remember when Jack Dorsey tweeted about making something on Twitter,

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building something on Twitter,

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and then the founder of Cardano, Charles Hoskinson, tweeted at him,

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like, why don't you build it on Cardano so it will be fully decentralized?

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And I was like, wait, he's basically the CEO of Cardano.

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How can anything with a CEO be decentralized?

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I see that a lot in crypto.

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Like, oh, this is decentralized, but you're the CEO of it.

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Are you sure it's decentralized if you're the CEO?

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Because, like, there's no CEO of Bitcoin,

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although one could argue maybe there are.

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Like, there's like a board of directors of Bitcoin,

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like an unofficial board of directors.

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Let's run through a really exciting set of tweets that I recently collected.

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I wanted to find an opportunity to talk about these,

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and it was just a couple days ago they were collected,

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and there's a whole bunch of them.

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I find each one fascinating.

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This thread was put out, it got a lot of attention,

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and I really enjoyed collecting these.

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In recent times, there's been a bunch of prominent Bitcoiners,

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very well-known, like Adam Back and others,

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who've increased the amount of tweets they've put out

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and articles and podcasts where they mention how sidechains

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and drivechains specifically, among other ideas,

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are very exciting for the future of Bitcoin

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and how sidechains open up new possibilities.

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So let's go through these today.

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I feel a lot of momentum building up around drivechain, actually,

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especially since the Bitcoin conference.

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Yeah.

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So let's see what Adam wrote.

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Do you want to read it?

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It's in the nest.

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Or I can take it away.

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Should I do it in a British accent?

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No, that'd be great. That'd be cool.

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I think we're going to need a big P2P sidechain

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for the next billion users.

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To benefit from unseasable, sensor-resistant Bitcoin,

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opcodes to support P2P sidechains like drivechain

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at LayerTwo Labs, P2P at Liquid, and at Rootstock.io.

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Rootstock.

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Wait, what is Rootstock again?

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Pardon my ignorance.

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I remember.

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No, they're one of the sidechains.

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That's okay.

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I mean, this space is so complex,

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and there's so many great projects that it's hard to keep track of all of them.

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Rootstock is a years-long great project

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where the founders like Sergio Damien Lerner and Gabriel Kerman

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designed this awesome sidechain.

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It is the most successful and robust merged-mind sidechain on Bitcoin.

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It generates, according to Gabriel Kerman a few months ago,

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in this Twitter space he spoke about how he likes drivechain

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and how Rootstock is generating about three Bitcoin per month

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for Bitcoin miners.

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And one metric that Bitcoiners are often amazed at

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is if I tell them the truth,

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which is that half of Bitcoin's hash rate

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is merged mining Rootstock.

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It's a little-known fact,

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but I guess some of the largest pools in Bitcoin are merged mining it

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or just a very large number of smaller miners,

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such that about half of the hash rate is merged mining Rootstock.

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And this is quite a fact

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that this phenomenon is going on at that scale, in that way,

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by that metric.

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So, so many Bitcoin miners are merged mining Rootstock

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because, of course, they want that extra revenue.

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So, merged mining is really exciting to me personally

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because, like, I've always been interested in Bitcoin's

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so-called security budget problem.

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So, merged mining, I feel, I think,

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you know, in my humble opinion,

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because I'm not a technical expert,

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but merged mining is maybe a very promising solution

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for Bitcoin to have great fee revenue in the future.

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So, in order for Bitcoin to succeed,

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I think the community eventually is going to realize that, like,

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there's only a few ways forward in terms of the fee revenue.

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Like, either the fees will grow a lot without any changes to Bitcoin

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or they'll stay low.

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And they've been low for a long time.

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There have been fee spikes in the past,

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but they've stayed low for a long time.

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And if merged mining were to increase a lot,

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then Bitcoin would have much higher fees paid to the miners.

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And Drivechain could accomplish this.

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Drivechain is very much about merged mining.

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In fact, of the two Drivechain BIPs,

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one of them, BIP301, is entirely focused on merged mining.

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So, there's, like, a huge opportunity here for Bitcoin

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to boost the merged mining that's going on.

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And this will fund the miners in the future.

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But there's actually a lot of interesting intellectual debate

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about whether that's necessary.

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For example, Pierre Richard,

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one of the intellectuals in Bitcoin who I think is working for Riot,

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the mining company,

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he has said in recent tweets that we don't really need high fees.

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So, the fee revenue, if I recall his tweet correctly,

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he said the fee revenue isn't important.

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And if the fees are low, that's okay.

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Because in his view, if I recall correctly,

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he tweeted that as long as someone isn't attacking Bitcoin,

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there's no need for high fees.

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But I wonder what he would say to the idea

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that we should have a very strong level of fees

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and that to make an attack unlikely,

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to make an attack more expensive,

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and that way it would be preventative.

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It would be kind of like a barrier to the idea of the attacker

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even getting interested in attacking.

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Because then they would know already that it's going to be so expensive

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that there's no point in trying to do the attack.

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Does that make sense?

256
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Right.

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Cool.

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All right.

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Let's go to the next one.

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The next one is by Fiatjaf.

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And it's awesome.

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He writes, drivechain is our only hope.

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So, I don't know what Fiatjaf sounds like,

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although actually we do because he has that great podcast.

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He publishes a podcast on YouTube.

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I think that's the only place where he puts it out.

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It's just a YouTube video.

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And it's actually not him.

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It's not him pictured.

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I don't think he shows his picture usually.

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He's like Satoshi.

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He kind of keeps a low profile.

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But he does have the YouTube channel,

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and then he's just playing video games.

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Is he Brazilian?

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I don't know.

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I have no idea where he's from.

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He had Portuguese on his GitHub account, so I was wondering.

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I was like, oh, Fiatjaf.

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Is he Brazilian?

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That's cool.

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I didn't know that.

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If that's true. Yeah. So, that might be. I don't know.

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But it's really cool that he's a consistent supporter of drivechain. He also speaks favorably

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about many other projects. He's a very much innovation-focused member of the Bitcoin community.

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He created Nostr, which although it's not a blockchain, it is very harmonious with Bitcoin

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in the view of many in the community, it seems. And it's viewed as like an exciting

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open-source project that blends well with Bitcoin's values and can be kind of like a

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communication layer for the Bitcoin community, an alternative to things like Twitter, which are

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highly centralized. We should be on Nostr more. We should be getting into that more definitely,

291
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shouldn't we? Yes.

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I like the idea of Nostr as a comment section for every web page.

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Yeah.

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Like, because news articles, you know, they'll turn off, you know, like Baltimore news or the

295
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Baltimore Sun, they'll like never allow comments on their articles. So, we need Nostr for that.

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The next one is Mike Tidwell. He writes, I support drivechain, BIP300 and BIP301.

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Pretty awesome. He wrote that recently and it's pretty cool. He is the co-founder of TabConf

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and that's the Atlanta Bitcoin Conference. It's really awesome that Mike does such a great service

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by running that conference. TabConf, the Atlanta Bitcoin Conference, is considered

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one of the main forums for Bitcoiners to share their technical ideas. So, it's a great compliment

301
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to the Bitcoin Conference in Miami, the Bitcoin Magazine Conference, because TabConf is more of

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like, I think, a kind of wonky, more like technically minded meeting as opposed to

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the larger, more kind of public sort of commercial Bitcoin Magazine Conference,

304
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which is where they have El Salvador's president announcing stuff and kind of big,

305
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splashy things like that. Whereas my understanding is that TabConf is a lot more technical,

306
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which is pretty cool for those in the community who like to dig into those details.

307
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So, the next one we can go to, let's see. Here's a great one. This is probably my favorite of all.

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One of my favorite people in all of Bitcoin is SuperTestNet. So, I shared that one in the

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00:23:01,714 --> 00:23:05,873
nest. I'm sharing all of these in the nest so people can follow along. We have a lot of people

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who listen like on demand after the space is over. Like, for example, I think Fiatjaf told

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me once that he doesn't listen live. So, some people listen on demand and others listen live,

312
00:23:19,953 --> 00:23:25,154
depending on their availability. And so, this next tweet that we're putting in the nest is

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from SuperTestNet. He writes, I support drivechain BIP300 and BIP301. It was cool that he

314
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wrote that because SuperTestNet is one of the great developers in the Bitcoin space, along with

315
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many others. And actually, it was great. I had an opportunity to meet him at the conference,

316
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and he's a big supporter of drivechain. And he's a builder who has created sidechain related

317
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ideas. So, that's cool. And I really appreciate his support. And I've said before, I think he's

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one of the people who really seems like a really genuine Bitcoiner and that he really cares about

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00:24:11,473 --> 00:24:19,794
the protocol. He really cares about the science, about the technical ideas. And if you ever have a

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chance to talk with him, it's very clear that he really is just all about Bitcoin and creativity

321
00:24:29,873 --> 00:24:35,873
within the technical realm. It's just a really great member of the technical community. It's

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00:24:35,873 --> 00:24:44,114
people like that who are driving the movement forward with innovative ideas. And I think it's

323
00:24:44,114 --> 00:24:48,674
just so cool that he understands drivechain. He supports it. I once asked him, do you support it

324
00:24:48,674 --> 00:24:55,394
kind of? Or do you support it a lot? He said, I am very pro drivechain. That's what he said.

325
00:24:55,394 --> 00:25:01,553
I am very pro drivechain. That was just great. And because he had recently created this thing

326
00:25:01,553 --> 00:25:08,753
called HandCrank that allows for something similar to drivechain. It's some kind of variation.

327
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So, I wanted to know, in light of his invention of HandCrank, did he still support drivechain?

328
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And he affirmed that, yes, he still supports it very much. So, that's cool. That's cool that he's

329
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a builder and he's a creative experimenter and creates interesting variations on things. And

330
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it's just brilliant that he has the technical knowledge to create something that's similar

331
00:25:32,834 --> 00:25:38,433
to drivechain, but different. So, he really is like a true builder and creative thinker. Pretty cool.

332
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I have a question about testnet. Not Super Testnet, but the testnet. Why doesn't the Bitcoin

333
00:25:44,593 --> 00:25:52,753
testnet allow more BIPs to be tested on there? Why don't they basically allow all the BIPs

334
00:25:53,473 --> 00:26:02,674
on the Bitcoin testnet and just let us see what happens? Do the same group of maintainers

335
00:26:02,674 --> 00:26:09,634
sort of control the Bitcoin testnet GitHub code that they do the main chain? And why aren't people

336
00:26:09,634 --> 00:26:16,753
more like, oh, like if they disagree with drivechain or BIP300 or BIP 119 or whatever, they say,

337
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like, oh, I'm against it. But why don't they just say, put it on the testnet and let's see what happens?

338
00:26:25,794 --> 00:26:29,553
Well, I think maybe drivechain will come to the testnet soon.

339
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I mean, we already have a testnet of drivechain within the drivechain community,

340
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but having it on the signet or the testnet and these other kind of more

341
00:26:45,394 --> 00:26:51,473
well-known kind of collaborations would be important. I think that right now, the

342
00:26:51,473 --> 00:26:58,834
drivechain code is being rebased. And once it's fully rebased, then it would be possible to put it

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with the rebased code on the testnet if that's what the collaborators who are involved in the

344
00:27:05,954 --> 00:27:11,713
testnet would like to do. I don't know the answer to your question of whether the set of people who

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are the core maintainers also participate directly in the administration of decisions around the

346
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testnet. I would imagine that it's a different set of people who are kind of dedicated to that

347
00:27:26,914 --> 00:27:33,394
testnet activity, because within the Bitcoin ecosystem, thinkers sometimes specialize. And

348
00:27:36,433 --> 00:27:43,713
testnet activity is fundamentally different in some ways than the live maintainership role. So

349
00:27:43,713 --> 00:27:48,033
it's a very great question. I don't know the answer, but I think that's a really good question.

350
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And maybe we can follow up outside the space and find out and then talk about it next time.

351
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Let's see. The next one is pretty provocative. Pretty provocative tweet here. This is from Mike

352
00:28:03,634 --> 00:28:11,234
in space. He's a longtime drivechain supporter. I've never spoken to him live, but he likes it

353
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and he writes, you MFers want all-time high, get BIP300 activated. You're welcome.

354
00:28:16,834 --> 00:28:27,473
You're welcome. So it's a pretty lively take on the topic. I think Mike in space is also the

355
00:28:27,473 --> 00:28:40,113
creator of the Bitcoin stamps protocol, which is like an NFT-related activity where he is placing

356
00:28:40,113 --> 00:28:46,993
images on the blockchain. And I don't own any of these stamps and I don't know too much about it,

357
00:28:46,993 --> 00:28:55,394
but I think that with the taproot and SegWit activities of the recent years and months,

358
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there is this newly discovered like ordinals, inscriptions, and stamps activity, which is

359
00:29:03,394 --> 00:29:08,274
occupying a large amount of block space, exploiting, if that's the right word, like the

360
00:29:08,274 --> 00:29:16,673
SegWit discount for the signature data. And people are using that to write images onto the blockchain

361
00:29:17,313 --> 00:29:23,313
in a novel way. And this is controversial because of course it occupies block space that could have

362
00:29:23,313 --> 00:29:32,834
been used for payments. So he's really into that and he's doing these stamps and they're

363
00:29:32,834 --> 00:29:37,873
taking up a lot of space if I understand correctly. So we'll see where this goes. I'm not sure if it

364
00:29:37,873 --> 00:29:46,113
can ever be stopped. We should lean into that all-time high tech, ATH tech. We should lean into

365
00:29:46,113 --> 00:29:53,553
that to get drivechain adopted because it's so true. Bitcoin will hit incredible new highs with

366
00:29:53,553 --> 00:30:01,074
drivechain. It seems like it's a no-brainer. Totally. I think that's great. I mean a lot of

367
00:30:01,154 --> 00:30:05,553
drivechainers like it for that reason. So I agree with you.

368
00:30:08,433 --> 00:30:13,074
I think you're totally right. Ultimately there's a bunch of different reasons to support

369
00:30:13,074 --> 00:30:19,553
drivechain. A person can do it like Adam Back does where it's all about love of innovation.

370
00:30:19,553 --> 00:30:24,913
And that's also what Mike Tidwell has said. He's tweeted that he hopes drivechain is adopted not

371
00:30:25,714 --> 00:30:32,514
to get more value and fees away from altcoins to bitcoin but instead he would like drivechain

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00:30:32,514 --> 00:30:38,274
adopted because of love of innovation. So there are some people who are kind of like scientifically

373
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oriented and they love drivechain for the science reasons. But you're totally right

374
00:30:46,113 --> 00:30:53,154
that what Mike in Space has written resonates potentially with many people because it's all

375
00:30:53,233 --> 00:31:01,074
about just making money for bitcoiners. So if bitcoin were to go up in value a lot

376
00:31:01,954 --> 00:31:06,274
because of drivechain then that would be great. How would that be not good?

377
00:31:06,274 --> 00:31:12,913
Isn't the whole point of bitcoin to like Satoshi said way back in the day. He said

378
00:31:13,793 --> 00:31:20,433
it'll either be very low or very big. So I think what Mike in Space is writing here is that he

379
00:31:20,433 --> 00:31:32,993
wants it to be very big and drivechain can help make that happen. So let's continue with our

380
00:31:32,993 --> 00:31:40,514
review. Here's another one. One of the really great members of the bitcoin community. There are

381
00:31:40,514 --> 00:31:50,753
so many who likes drivechain is Vlad and he is the creator and editor-in-chief of a bitcoin magazine

382
00:31:50,753 --> 00:31:58,113
called Bitcoin Takeover. They have a really great online presence with all kinds of podcasts and

383
00:31:58,113 --> 00:32:06,753
articles. There's also a physical magazine and it's cool. So he has written that he supports

384
00:32:06,753 --> 00:32:13,394
drivechain and his exact words are merged mining is a pretty big deal. Yes it's also why I support

385
00:32:13,394 --> 00:32:19,154
the idea of drivechains. So I think what he's saying there probably is what we discussed earlier

386
00:32:19,154 --> 00:32:26,673
which is that drivechain has the potential to increase the fee revenue of the miners in bitcoin

387
00:32:27,394 --> 00:32:34,834
and if the fee revenue can increase a lot then the security budget problem as it were

388
00:32:35,553 --> 00:32:45,394
would be solved. In other words if merged mining can send a ton of transaction fees from sidechains

389
00:32:45,394 --> 00:32:53,714
to bitcoin mainchain miners then there would be no security budget problem and that would be great

390
00:32:53,714 --> 00:33:00,594
because it would not be good for bitcoin to have to resort to an inflation fork.

391
00:33:01,553 --> 00:33:07,793
And that's the pro drivechain view. Peter Todd he takes a different view respectfully.

392
00:33:07,793 --> 00:33:14,274
He takes a different view which is he thinks that it would be okay if bitcoin were to

393
00:33:15,154 --> 00:33:21,154
do inflation meaning you know as he says tail issuance like have bitcoin for example have like

394
00:33:21,154 --> 00:33:28,353
a one percent annual inflation rate forever. So instead of maintaining the 21 million hardcap

395
00:33:28,433 --> 00:33:34,753
Peter Todd is interested in the possibility of there being inflation on bitcoin. He's tweeted

396
00:33:34,753 --> 00:33:40,673
many times about it only once or twice has he ever written I support an inflation fork.

397
00:33:41,553 --> 00:33:47,394
Most of the time when he writes about it he does in a more muted fashion endorse the idea. For

398
00:33:47,394 --> 00:33:54,034
example he'll say he'll write something like you know we should consider this. Right like Monero

399
00:33:54,034 --> 00:34:02,834
has a tail emission that started in May 2022 and forever like from here on their block reward for

400
00:34:02,834 --> 00:34:12,274
Monero will be 0.6 XMR per block forever. So Monero is doing that. Interesting. I wonder how they came

401
00:34:12,274 --> 00:34:19,793
up with 0.6 because it's to state the complete obvious it's less than one percent. It's not a

402
00:34:19,793 --> 00:34:27,793
round number. On the other hand the number six is considered perfect by some mathematicians

403
00:34:27,793 --> 00:34:34,913
historically like I think Pythagoras and others you know the kind of mathematicians and philosophers.

404
00:34:34,913 --> 00:34:40,594
They you know they think that like the number six is very good. So I mean I doubt that's the reason.

405
00:34:40,594 --> 00:34:46,113
I'm sure it wasn't aesthetic and perhaps they just they reflected on what would be the right amount

406
00:34:46,993 --> 00:34:51,394
and of course it's hard to pick the right amount and it's also very difficult to adjust it because

407
00:34:51,394 --> 00:34:56,673
if you if you change the amount you know if one year it's 0.6 and the next year they have to

408
00:34:56,673 --> 00:35:02,113
change it to 0.7 that requires the community to like make a decision and change things which is

409
00:35:02,113 --> 00:35:08,673
difficult and annoying. So the really great thing about drivechain in my opinion one of the great

410
00:35:08,673 --> 00:35:15,313
things is that if merged mining can work really well to increase the fees then there wouldn't

411
00:35:15,313 --> 00:35:22,194
ever be a need to like decide how much should we inflate should it be 0.6 percent like Monero

412
00:35:22,194 --> 00:35:28,594
or should it be 0.1 percent or should it be one percent. Like no one knows what the right

413
00:35:28,594 --> 00:35:32,913
answer is and whatever we decide we might have to change you know three years later because what if

414
00:35:33,793 --> 00:35:39,074
what if it's too much and then we're spending too much on inflation so it's harming bitcoin's

415
00:35:39,873 --> 00:35:46,993
value accrual you see because if you do inflation you that basically imposes a cost on people who

416
00:35:46,993 --> 00:35:56,993
hold bitcoin because their their real return from holding is lowered by the inflation it's lowered

417
00:35:56,993 --> 00:36:03,793
relative to what the value of a bitcoin would have been without the inflation. So bitcoin might be

418
00:36:03,793 --> 00:36:12,353
still going up in value but in theory any inflation would reduce that rate of value accrual

419
00:36:12,353 --> 00:36:16,274
because there's more bitcoin in the world chasing a limited amount of goods and services.

420
00:36:17,154 --> 00:36:24,194
So also I think one of the main objections to inflation or tail issuance is that if bitcoin

421
00:36:24,993 --> 00:36:30,834
were to decide to change its monetary policy then there would be yet another discussion in the

422
00:36:30,834 --> 00:36:38,194
future about further changes. So again and again the bitcoin community if it were to embark on

423
00:36:38,194 --> 00:36:43,714
inflation would have to inflate again and again and that would be unfortunate. It would be

424
00:36:43,714 --> 00:36:50,113
unfortunate to have that disruptive factor in the discourse since one of the fundamental value

425
00:36:50,113 --> 00:36:56,433
propositions and narratives of bitcoin has always been its absolute scarcity and how that you know

426
00:36:56,433 --> 00:37:02,194
that's one of the memes that has strengthened bitcoin throughout the decade is there's only 21

427
00:37:02,194 --> 00:37:07,954
million. So I think it's important we preserve that. Welcome to the stage Paul. We're chatting

428
00:37:07,954 --> 00:37:18,673
about the recent thread that we put out under the LayerTwo Labs handle on twitter of the dozens of

429
00:37:18,673 --> 00:37:24,673
notable bitcoiners who've lately voiced their support or reaffirmed their support for drive

430
00:37:24,673 --> 00:37:30,354
chain for all different interesting reasons like Vlad the most recent tweet we're discussing. Vlad

431
00:37:30,354 --> 00:37:38,033
is the excellent creator of the bitcoin takeover magazine and like me he finds the merged mining

432
00:37:38,913 --> 00:37:44,433
aspect of drivechain very exciting and that's the reason why he supports drivechains like

433
00:37:44,433 --> 00:37:49,553
some others who also like how the fees how the fee revenue can be a huge benefit to bitcoin.

434
00:37:49,553 --> 00:37:56,354
Yes that is an important reason.

435
00:37:58,913 --> 00:38:06,273
I think that speaks to an old there was an old idea of Satoshi's that the

436
00:38:06,273 --> 00:38:09,793
transaction volume in 20 years would either be very very small or very very large

437
00:38:13,313 --> 00:38:17,234
and that's I think what merge mining is getting at is that revision.

438
00:38:20,033 --> 00:38:31,553
Yes absolutely yeah Satoshi thought that. Of course it's interesting how he thought that

439
00:38:31,553 --> 00:38:37,074
and he also explicitly thought about in the bit dns thread how we could collect fees from all

440
00:38:37,074 --> 00:38:42,994
the networks increasing total strength and yet Satoshi also wrote somewhere else that

441
00:38:42,994 --> 00:38:46,994
maybe there would be miners who would always be willing to process transactions for free.

442
00:38:47,553 --> 00:38:53,074
So it was so interesting how brilliant Satoshi was that he was able to see into the future and

443
00:38:53,074 --> 00:39:00,194
realize that it would be it would be valuable for there to be high fee revenue but he also

444
00:39:00,754 --> 00:39:04,513
down here in the uh where we have the little the tweets that are what is this called like

445
00:39:04,513 --> 00:39:11,793
the frame or whatever this is yeah the nest the nest yes that's a silly name

446
00:39:12,754 --> 00:39:18,513
but it's good it's a good lineup of tweets. Yeah I'm basically posting them one by one

447
00:39:18,513 --> 00:39:25,874
from the thread that we that I created um recently a few days ago where

448
00:39:27,313 --> 00:39:32,513
I just I just collected a whole bunch of bitcoin drivechain supporters. So the next one to chat

449
00:39:32,513 --> 00:39:39,393
about is Eden Yago. Uh Ian do you want to you want to read it maybe you can do it in Eden's

450
00:39:39,393 --> 00:39:43,954
excellent accent if possible. I don't know I don't know how he sounds is he Israeli?

451
00:39:44,892 --> 00:39:53,892
I don't know that he is I don't actually know this but I think he's sort of is he German or something I've met him many times.

452
00:39:53,892 --> 00:40:12,892
He I don't know the answer to that question but I had the chance to meet him recently when he stopped by the LayerTwo Labs booth at the recent conference and he's incredibly friendly a brilliant person and I recommend everyone listen to him on podcasts because

453
00:40:12,892 --> 00:40:33,892
and not because he's a drivechain supporter but because he has an amazing personal story. I recall his pod and I told him this when I met him I said your your personal family story of fleeing from oppression and how bitcoin has a personal significance to you because of your personal family experience.

454
00:40:33,892 --> 00:41:01,892
It was very resonant and I would love to hear those podcasts again. It's probably not hard to find one where he talks about that because it's it's a really great part of of his presence as a bitcoiner is how his own family fled from oppression and how that is one reason why he understands bitcoin well and what inspired him also to create his protocol sovereign which is on the excellent platform Rootstock that.

455
00:41:03,892 --> 00:41:05,892
Has platform so many great projects like that.

456
00:41:07,892 --> 00:41:14,892
He says the only thing missing from bitcoin is that ability to adopt any feature or technology without changing main chain.

457
00:41:14,892 --> 00:41:32,892
I have a question actually for Paul. So I was thinking so the miner escrow in drivechain is a six month. Is it six months in between.

458
00:41:32,892 --> 00:41:38,892
It has six months to succeed before it fails and it can succeed as quickly as three months.

459
00:41:39,892 --> 00:41:49,892
And so like a miner who is mining a sidechain transaction do they have to wait months to get the sidechain fees transaction fees.

460
00:41:51,892 --> 00:41:55,892
Sorry I'm busy retweeting some great tweets including a sidechains now.

461
00:41:56,892 --> 00:41:57,892
What was the question.

462
00:41:58,892 --> 00:42:04,892
Do the miners have to wait a few months to get the transaction fees from the side from the sidechains.

463
00:42:05,892 --> 00:42:11,892
Well this is a this is a question that I think from far away is very hard for people to understand.

464
00:42:12,892 --> 00:42:13,892
But if you use the software is much easier to understand.

465
00:42:14,892 --> 00:42:18,892
So if you use the software you know that everything every message on the sidechain has its own fee.

466
00:42:19,892 --> 00:42:21,892
Those are collected via merge mining.

467
00:42:22,892 --> 00:42:25,892
So this is why it is important to have the two bits separate.

468
00:42:26,892 --> 00:42:32,892
Actually because every sidechain message pays its own fee and the miners collect those fees.

469
00:42:33,892 --> 00:42:38,892
But a message withdrawal pays two fees.

470
00:42:39,892 --> 00:42:43,892
One fee is the sidechains transaction fee that every single sidechain message must pay.

471
00:42:44,892 --> 00:42:51,892
And then the second fee is a main chain fee when the withdrawal transaction is finally broadcast on layer one.

472
00:42:52,892 --> 00:42:56,892
And so there's actually two separate sets of fees for the withdrawal.

473
00:42:57,892 --> 00:43:03,892
And the one is collected in real time just like every single message every single sidechain message.

474
00:43:04,892 --> 00:43:09,892
And then the other is the withdrawal fee that one is paid when the transaction finally goes through.

475
00:43:10,892 --> 00:43:14,892
And the the sidechain constructs the withdrawal.

476
00:43:15,892 --> 00:43:17,892
There's only a few every you know there's only a few every year.

477
00:43:18,892 --> 00:43:21,892
So there's like four trains leaving the station every year.

478
00:43:23,892 --> 00:43:30,892
And so it sorts it will automatically the protocol sorts to people on layer two based on this layer one fee.

479
00:43:31,892 --> 00:43:38,892
So the layer one fee it could be very high because it has people jostling to get onto the train.

480
00:43:39,892 --> 00:43:41,892
Although the train of course can hold like 20,000 people.

481
00:43:42,892 --> 00:43:43,892
So it may also not be that high.

482
00:43:44,892 --> 00:43:45,892
But the point is there's two different fee rates.

483
00:43:46,892 --> 00:43:51,892
So one is collected every single sidechain message pays a sidechain transaction fee.

484
00:43:52,892 --> 00:43:55,892
And those are collected in real time every 10 minutes with merge mining.

485
00:43:56,892 --> 00:44:08,892
And then the withdrawal fee is that is paid when the on the one whatever one miner includes pushes the transaction over the line.

486
00:44:11,892 --> 00:44:14,892
Unfortunately miners do not really get anything if they like upvote.

487
00:44:15,892 --> 00:44:22,892
If they merely upvote you know 13,000 blocks upvoting to make that withdrawal transaction included.

488
00:44:22,892 --> 00:44:27,892
So maybe someone could come up with some kind of harebrained scheme where they all share credit or something.

489
00:44:28,892 --> 00:44:30,892
But that would probably be over complicating it.

490
00:44:31,892 --> 00:44:32,892
And that is not how it works.

491
00:44:33,892 --> 00:44:39,892
Basically the way it works is if you don't upvote a withdrawal then no one gets that transaction fees from that.

492
00:44:40,892 --> 00:44:43,892
So if you upvoted at least you have a shot since mining is pretty random.

493
00:44:44,892 --> 00:44:50,892
At least you have a shot same shot as everyone else in the block that mines the big fee withdrawal transaction.

494
00:44:52,892 --> 00:45:10,892
I added to the nest an additional tweet from the outstanding thinker John Light who writes.

495
00:45:11,892 --> 00:45:19,892
I am aware of only one project publicly working on bringing zero cash to Bitcoin and that is LayerTwo Labs Zcash drivechain.

496
00:45:19,892 --> 00:45:22,892
I hope they get support and I also look forward to.

497
00:45:27,892 --> 00:45:30,892
I'm looking for the tweet now the full version.

498
00:45:32,892 --> 00:45:34,892
It's part of a long thread.

499
00:45:35,892 --> 00:45:37,892
So to read the rest of it I have to actually find.

500
00:45:38,892 --> 00:45:42,892
And I also look forward to seeing more projects work on bringing this important privacy tech to Bitcoin.

501
00:45:43,892 --> 00:45:45,892
And then he has in that tweet he quote tweeted Paul.

502
00:45:46,892 --> 00:45:57,892
So what we're seeing here is that some of the more technical thinkers in the Bitcoin community are very curious about the potential for more privacy for Bitcoiners.

503
00:45:58,892 --> 00:46:00,892
More fungibility by using a sidechain.

504
00:46:01,892 --> 00:46:07,892
Adam Back has tweeted the same thing that he's interested and excited about the Zcash sidechain.

505
00:46:08,892 --> 00:46:09,892
That's pretty cool.

506
00:46:09,892 --> 00:46:13,892
Ian what do you think about like the privacy community.

507
00:46:14,892 --> 00:46:16,892
And because I know that you're knowledgeable about Monero.

508
00:46:17,892 --> 00:46:25,892
How do you feel about the possibility of bringing those cypherpunks the privacy focused blockchain users back home to Bitcoin.

509
00:46:26,892 --> 00:46:30,892
So you know because they've left and to some extent it'd be great to bring them home onto the.

510
00:46:34,892 --> 00:46:35,892
It'd be great.

511
00:46:36,892 --> 00:46:37,892
Sorry I got a call cut out.

512
00:46:37,892 --> 00:46:39,892
It'd be great to bring them home to Bitcoin wouldn't it.

513
00:46:42,892 --> 00:46:49,892
Yeah and honestly Zcash would work better as a Bitcoin sidechain than as a standalone currency.

514
00:46:50,892 --> 00:47:00,892
Personally I would like to see Zcash remove all public transactions and be privacy only privacy by default shielded transactions all shielded.

515
00:47:01,892 --> 00:47:12,892
So maybe you know Zcash would be more successful as a Bitcoin sidechain with totally shielded transactions and then the dark web would probably embrace it.

516
00:47:13,892 --> 00:47:20,892
Because I think the only like hesitation from the dark web about Zcash is that it's not private by default.

517
00:47:21,892 --> 00:47:23,892
All the transactions aren't shielded.

518
00:47:24,892 --> 00:47:25,892
Although I'm not an expert on that.

519
00:47:26,892 --> 00:47:35,892
But it would be nice to see it as a Bitcoin sidechain and preferably without a CEO like it has at a electric coin company.

520
00:47:42,892 --> 00:47:43,892
Awesome.

521
00:47:44,892 --> 00:47:45,892
I agree.

522
00:47:45,892 --> 00:47:52,892
Many of the drawbacks of Zcash are things that are just dropped if they are a sidechain.

523
00:47:52,892 --> 00:47:54,892
So they just don't even need to.

524
00:48:00,892 --> 00:48:01,892
Yes.

525
00:48:01,892 --> 00:48:07,892
They don't need to like have like the what you might call the they have like a dev tax.

526
00:48:07,892 --> 00:48:08,892
They have this company.

527
00:48:09,892 --> 00:48:11,892
They have people represent them.

528
00:48:11,892 --> 00:48:12,892
So.

529
00:48:22,892 --> 00:48:36,892
Moving forward on our list there is a really great set of ideas and insights that come from Andrew Bailey a philosopher who is very interested in Bitcoin and he supports drivechain.

530
00:48:36,892 --> 00:48:39,892
He's run the drivechain code and tweeted about it.

531
00:48:40,892 --> 00:48:44,892
And he's part of a collection of philosophers who like drivechain.

532
00:48:44,892 --> 00:48:52,892
As I understand there's Troy Cross and other than Brett Rettler and Andrew Bailey and Craig Wormkey.

533
00:48:52,892 --> 00:48:59,892
They're like a like a four part team of philosophers from each from a different school.

534
00:48:59,892 --> 00:49:00,892
I think.

535
00:49:00,892 --> 00:49:16,892
And like I think one of them is at in Wyoming and another one and Andrew Bailey is in Singapore and they all write about drivechain and Bitcoin or at least Andrew does write about drivechain specifically.

536
00:49:16,892 --> 00:49:18,892
And they have an open mind about it.

537
00:49:18,892 --> 00:49:20,892
It's really awesome to see his support.

538
00:49:20,892 --> 00:49:26,892
And I think he has a great book coming out with his fellow philosophers Bitcoin from a philosophical angle.

539
00:49:30,892 --> 00:49:31,892
All right.

540
00:49:33,892 --> 00:49:36,892
Now for one of the really big names.

541
00:49:37,892 --> 00:49:38,892
Eric Wall.

542
00:49:39,892 --> 00:49:40,892
He likes to provoke.

543
00:49:40,892 --> 00:49:42,892
He never shies from a debate.

544
00:49:43,892 --> 00:49:54,892
And he once tweeted not long ago that it's been seven years since since truth coin wrote the original drivechain blog post.

545
00:49:54,892 --> 00:50:04,892
If you went back in time and told me that seven years later no effort has been made towards merge mine sidechains but that the same people who oppose them were upset.

546
00:50:04,892 --> 00:50:05,892
The theory and existed.

547
00:50:05,892 --> 00:50:06,892
I'd laugh in your face.

548
00:50:06,892 --> 00:50:11,892
So this point here is that drivechain would have been good for Bitcoin.

549
00:50:12,892 --> 00:50:14,892
It wasn't adopted so far.

550
00:50:14,892 --> 00:50:28,892
And yet the toxic maximalist movement exists where people want to dismiss and condemn the features and use that's going on outside of Bitcoin.

551
00:50:29,892 --> 00:50:39,892
Even though Bitcoin isn't able to platform those features in a peer to peer manner so far since no two way peg exists for sidechains yet.

552
00:50:39,892 --> 00:50:40,892
That's peer to peer.

553
00:50:42,892 --> 00:50:44,892
So he has it exactly right.

554
00:50:45,892 --> 00:50:50,892
And he's quite pessimistic on the prospects of drivechain adoption.

555
00:50:50,892 --> 00:51:05,892
But I am optimistic that he'll be very pleasantly relieved to learn that drivechain is gaining support within the Bitcoin community especially among its leading thinkers.

556
00:51:06,892 --> 00:51:22,892
And we could be at a moment at this time where there is a recognition that for greater extensibility for greater network effect value accrual fee revenue innovation and also the benefits of ossification on the lower layer.

557
00:51:23,892 --> 00:51:29,892
Drivechain is a multifaceted exciting upgrade for Bitcoin.

558
00:51:30,892 --> 00:51:45,892
And there's a lot of excitement and funding towards seeing it happen and getting the code rebased having it go through its final stages of vetting and adoption and finally activation.

559
00:51:46,892 --> 00:51:51,892
You have noticed a lot of momentum building around drivechain especially like in the last month.

560
00:51:56,892 --> 00:51:57,892
Awesome.

561
00:51:57,892 --> 00:51:59,892
Because of these great spaces.

562
00:51:59,892 --> 00:52:00,892
Yes.

563
00:52:01,892 --> 00:52:02,892
Or maybe.

564
00:52:03,892 --> 00:52:04,892
OK.

565
00:52:04,892 --> 00:52:05,892
I just tweeted the space.

566
00:52:06,892 --> 00:52:07,892
Maybe more people.

567
00:52:07,892 --> 00:52:10,892
I should have probably joined it earlier on.

568
00:52:10,892 --> 00:52:22,892
Probably the algorithm like probably the algorithm like it probably knows that the space it lives for a short time and then it dies off after a certain time.

569
00:52:22,892 --> 00:52:28,892
So it probably doesn't promote any space that has been running for a little while.

570
00:52:33,892 --> 00:52:34,892
All right.

571
00:52:34,892 --> 00:52:46,892
The next tweet is going to be from Sovereign Matt, one of our occasional guests in this Twitter space as a listener and perhaps a speaker if I recall.

572
00:52:47,892 --> 00:52:53,892
He writes BIP300 fixes this rather than polluting the Bitcoin blockchain with NFTs.

573
00:52:53,892 --> 00:53:00,892
You give the NFT enthusiasts a Bitcoin sidechain to do their NFT scamming.

574
00:53:00,892 --> 00:53:01,892
I wouldn't.

575
00:53:01,892 --> 00:53:02,892
This is Henry speaking.

576
00:53:02,892 --> 00:53:03,892
I wouldn't.

577
00:53:03,892 --> 00:53:05,892
I wouldn't call it scamming as he has.

578
00:53:05,892 --> 00:53:06,892
But OK.

579
00:53:06,892 --> 00:53:14,892
Returning to his tweet, smart Bitcoin miners will secure and mine the NFT sidechain for additional revenue from fees granted.

580
00:53:15,892 --> 00:53:17,892
So there you have it.

581
00:53:17,892 --> 00:53:25,892
This is someone who takes the nuanced view that he thinks it's a scam to do NFTs.

582
00:53:25,892 --> 00:53:29,892
On the other hand, he wants the fees, which I think is an acceptable viewpoint and I respect it.

583
00:53:29,892 --> 00:53:37,892
However, I personally feel like it's not really a scam because there's.

584
00:53:41,892 --> 00:53:43,892
I mean, these NFT buyers, they know.

585
00:53:44,892 --> 00:53:50,892
They know what they're getting in most cases, I would think they're just buying art that's somehow linked to the blockchain and that's OK.

586
00:53:53,892 --> 00:53:54,892
What do you think, Ian?

587
00:53:54,892 --> 00:53:55,892
What's your take on NFTs?

588
00:53:55,892 --> 00:53:56,892
Tell us in detail.

589
00:53:59,892 --> 00:54:08,892
I think they're kind of stupid, but obviously there could be a system of private property rights.

590
00:54:09,892 --> 00:54:19,892
Like since Bitcoin is a system of private property rights, a global system of private property rights that exists outside of the government, arguably for the first time in history.

591
00:54:20,892 --> 00:54:23,892
You know, NFTs are trying to solve.

592
00:54:23,892 --> 00:54:28,892
They're trying to make a system of intellectual property rights that exists outside of the government.

593
00:54:28,892 --> 00:54:32,892
So I agree with what what the problem they're trying to solve.

594
00:54:32,892 --> 00:54:34,892
I don't know if they have solved it, though.

595
00:54:43,892 --> 00:54:50,892
Believe it or not, I think I can think of some I wouldn't like invested in NFTs like a way of earning income, you know, to like feed my family or whatever.

596
00:54:51,892 --> 00:55:03,892
But I would say that there are some clever things that can be done with the NFT that I don't think people have really realized or talk about, which is just that, you know, I don't do this myself.

597
00:55:04,892 --> 00:55:08,892
But what you could do is you could make money secretly in crypto.

598
00:55:09,892 --> 00:55:21,892
And then if you wanted to turn it into taxable income, you could you could create a an NFT and then buy it from yourself at a low price and then sell it back to yourself for a high price.

599
00:55:22,892 --> 00:55:29,892
And then you have as long as you held it for more than a year, you have a long run capital gains tax and you have basically the lowest tax rate.

600
00:55:30,892 --> 00:55:33,892
You have a certain you have, I think, like one hundred thousand.

601
00:55:34,892 --> 00:55:35,892
You can make one hundred thousand dollars a year.

602
00:55:36,892 --> 00:55:38,892
You'd have like a 15 percent income tax rate or something.

603
00:55:40,892 --> 00:55:46,892
So that's kind of a that's kind of a much clever way of it's like a fundamental value of NFT that people don't really talk about.

604
00:55:47,892 --> 00:55:48,892
I don't know if anyone is doing that.

605
00:55:49,892 --> 00:55:50,892
I'm sure someone is doing it.

606
00:55:50,892 --> 00:56:04,892
But that is at least something to keep in mind when people are so they want to shoot from the hip and go lose it, lose their minds and say NFTs are really, really bad.

607
00:56:05,892 --> 00:56:17,892
There's actually a case where they are libertarian and putting more money in it, taking more money out of the government's pocket and putting it into the citizen's pocket, which is kind of a paradoxical, surprising.

608
00:56:18,892 --> 00:56:19,892
Counterintuitive, not.

609
00:56:21,892 --> 00:56:22,892
Unexpected thing.

610
00:56:27,892 --> 00:56:29,892
It's like the fine art market scam.

611
00:56:31,892 --> 00:56:32,892
Exactly.

612
00:56:33,892 --> 00:56:35,892
But now it's for everyone, not just for everyone.

613
00:56:36,892 --> 00:56:48,892
Exactly. The key, the key part of it is the interesting thing about it is that it does rely on you being able to issue an asset and you being able to like manipulate its price like completely in order to work.

614
00:56:49,892 --> 00:56:53,892
So it weirdly, it weirdly requires the NFT.

615
00:56:56,892 --> 00:56:57,892
Whatever, you know, for the mechanism.

616
00:57:00,892 --> 00:57:03,892
It takes the appraiser out of the scam.

617
00:57:04,892 --> 00:57:08,892
Yeah. And of course, you can't do it if the price is really floating and moving around.

618
00:57:09,892 --> 00:57:12,892
This greatly reduces the effectiveness of this strategy.

619
00:57:13,892 --> 00:57:20,892
So the more the more fake it all is, the more fake the market is, the more like manipulated the prices, the better it works for this purpose.

620
00:57:22,892 --> 00:57:24,892
So that's kind of an interesting thing.

621
00:57:26,892 --> 00:57:30,892
So don't be so quick to just say, oh, everyone in NFT world is being scammed.

622
00:57:31,892 --> 00:57:35,892
Maybe it's theoretically possible that zero percent of them are being scammed.

623
00:57:36,892 --> 00:57:38,892
And it's all just an accounting trick.

624
00:57:39,892 --> 00:57:40,892
Uncle Sam is being scammed.

625
00:57:41,892 --> 00:57:42,892
Uncle Sam is the only one.

626
00:57:50,892 --> 00:57:51,892
All right.

627
00:57:52,892 --> 00:57:54,892
That speaks to a larger point, though, about.

628
00:57:55,892 --> 00:58:00,892
You don't know, just because the innovation doesn't make sense to you, doesn't necessarily mean you should.

629
00:58:01,892 --> 00:58:06,892
Accident, you know, like a lot of things like I remember when Uber Eats came out, I thought this is so stupid.

630
00:58:07,892 --> 00:58:12,892
This has nothing to do with me getting a ride home when I'm drunk or whatever, you know, what is Uber?

631
00:58:12,892 --> 00:58:13,892
But now I use Uber Eats all the time.

632
00:58:14,892 --> 00:58:19,892
And, you know, you forget that an innovation can take many different forms.

633
00:58:20,892 --> 00:58:21,892
And like the Uber Eats one is the supply side.

634
00:58:22,892 --> 00:58:25,892
They have all these workers who are driving around and they thought, you know, it'd be really nice.

635
00:58:26,892 --> 00:58:28,892
And now I just think this is the most decadent service.

636
00:58:29,892 --> 00:58:32,892
Like this is one of those things where if you take a time machine into the past, you would really miss, right?

637
00:58:33,892 --> 00:58:39,892
You'd be like, oh, I just opened this app and just food disappeared on my doorstep, the food that I want.

638
00:58:39,892 --> 00:58:44,892
And then you take a time machine back and you'd be like, oh, no, it sucks.

639
00:58:45,892 --> 00:58:46,892
Like the 90s suck now.

640
00:58:47,892 --> 00:58:48,892
There's no Uber Eats.

641
00:58:49,892 --> 00:58:50,892
So, but when it first came out, I thought it sucked.

642
00:58:51,892 --> 00:58:53,892
And when Snapchat first came out, I thought that was stupid too.

643
00:58:54,892 --> 00:58:55,892
I was like, why can't people just screenshot?

644
00:58:56,892 --> 00:59:06,892
But I missed something about Snapchat also, which is that oftentimes there is, people are easy going and they don't,

645
00:59:06,892 --> 00:59:10,892
they like being in a casual zone where stuff isn't remembered.

646
00:59:11,892 --> 00:59:19,892
And they say, well, you know, I understand that when I'm on Snapchat, I'm not supposed to be secretly saving the photos

647
00:59:20,892 --> 00:59:22,892
or taking a picture with a different phone or whatever.

648
00:59:23,892 --> 00:59:24,892
So you kind of understand.

649
00:59:25,892 --> 00:59:27,892
So it works good enough for 90% of the cases.

650
00:59:28,892 --> 00:59:33,892
And it's just, there's a niche for something more casual in a world where all of us are being recorded

651
00:59:33,892 --> 00:59:36,892
and monitored all the time for everything, a million percent.

652
00:59:37,892 --> 00:59:41,892
So those are things that I thought they were the stupidest idea in the world when they came out.

653
00:59:42,892 --> 00:59:45,892
And, you know, now they're like billion, billion, billion dollar companies that.

654
00:59:47,315 --> 00:59:49,795
Affect people's lives every day.

655
00:59:49,795 --> 00:59:54,235
So just because you don't understand what some,

656
00:59:54,235 --> 00:59:56,795
why you're like, what are people getting out of this?

657
00:59:57,675 --> 01:00:02,035
That's not a reason to ban that thing.

658
01:00:02,035 --> 01:00:05,795
Instead, you should be saying someone out there created this.

659
01:00:05,795 --> 01:00:07,515
They must get something out of it.

660
01:00:07,515 --> 01:00:08,835
I'm so happy for them.

661
01:00:13,095 --> 01:00:16,555
And I'm so curious about which are the overt reasons

662
01:00:16,555 --> 01:00:18,395
for doing it that they say out loud

663
01:00:18,395 --> 01:00:21,475
and which are the covert reasons

664
01:00:21,475 --> 01:00:26,475
that can't be explained out loud, but which exist.

665
01:00:29,914 --> 01:00:31,315
Well said.

666
01:00:31,315 --> 01:00:33,234
The next one is a little bit technical

667
01:00:33,234 --> 01:00:38,234
and maybe you can explain it for those in the audience.

668
01:00:38,395 --> 01:00:40,035
Like we have some very technical people

669
01:00:40,035 --> 01:00:41,795
like Sam Parker here.

670
01:00:41,795 --> 01:00:43,475
Maybe you can elaborate, Paul.

671
01:00:43,475 --> 01:00:45,835
What do you think Greg Slepak meant

672
01:00:45,835 --> 01:00:49,035
when he decided to announce in his tweet

673
01:00:49,035 --> 01:00:50,535
that I've shared in The Nest

674
01:00:50,535 --> 01:00:54,594
that he likes drivechain more than in the past

675
01:00:54,594 --> 01:00:58,234
because of the possibility that Stratum V2

676
01:00:58,234 --> 01:01:02,075
could create more, you know,

677
01:01:02,075 --> 01:01:05,715
stability in the realm of like miner activity.

678
01:01:05,715 --> 01:01:07,194
Do you know what he might've meant there?

679
01:01:07,194 --> 01:01:08,635
Because it's great to see.

680
01:01:09,475 --> 01:01:12,154
Well, he really didn't like it in the past at all.

681
01:01:12,154 --> 01:01:13,115
He was a big hater.

682
01:01:14,234 --> 01:01:17,995
But I think, you know, some nice people went around to him

683
01:01:17,995 --> 01:01:22,995
and they gave him a smile and a nod.

684
01:01:24,234 --> 01:01:26,435
And they, then he kind of decided,

685
01:01:26,435 --> 01:01:28,154
I think sort of what really happened

686
01:01:28,154 --> 01:01:30,154
was he kind of didn't like the idea

687
01:01:30,154 --> 01:01:32,995
and he shot from the hip.

688
01:01:33,914 --> 01:01:37,874
He hastily, angrily disliked the idea.

689
01:01:37,874 --> 01:01:39,554
And I don't know if you're familiar

690
01:01:39,554 --> 01:01:40,715
with how the internet works,

691
01:01:40,715 --> 01:01:43,435
but sometimes, you know, someone will like snark someone

692
01:01:44,274 --> 01:01:45,395
and then someone will snark someone back.

693
01:01:45,395 --> 01:01:49,755
And then there's like a giant flame war that erupts

694
01:01:50,635 --> 01:01:52,035
that can happen.

695
01:01:52,035 --> 01:01:54,075
And so basically he was like against the idea,

696
01:01:54,075 --> 01:01:55,915
but he didn't have very good reasons, I think.

697
01:01:55,915 --> 01:02:00,915
So, but he was determined to cling to,

698
01:02:01,755 --> 01:02:03,755
which is a good thing because he,

699
01:02:04,755 --> 01:02:06,755
every idea should get scrutiny,

700
01:02:06,755 --> 01:02:08,434
including drivechain, of course.

701
01:02:08,434 --> 01:02:11,714
So he did give it a lot of criticisms,

702
01:02:11,755 --> 01:02:13,994
but I think what happened was over time,

703
01:02:13,994 --> 01:02:17,635
he kind of realized that he didn't have much

704
01:02:17,635 --> 01:02:21,195
of a leg to stand on, except this one aspect,

705
01:02:21,195 --> 01:02:25,195
which is that especially after SegWit2x

706
01:02:25,195 --> 01:02:27,594
and after the SegWit blockade in particular,

707
01:02:29,354 --> 01:02:30,714
the pre-SegWit2x,

708
01:02:32,755 --> 01:02:35,315
there was this view that mining was too centralized.

709
01:02:35,315 --> 01:02:37,395
The miners were too coordinated.

710
01:02:37,395 --> 01:02:38,835
They knew each other too well.

711
01:02:38,835 --> 01:02:40,874
They would do favors for each other,

712
01:02:40,874 --> 01:02:42,275
such as blocking SegWit.

713
01:02:43,475 --> 01:02:45,954
People like Roger Veer could get to the miners

714
01:02:45,954 --> 01:02:49,994
and mining pools and, or Ant Pool,

715
01:02:49,994 --> 01:02:52,915
like there was something like Jihan Wu makes all the chips.

716
01:02:52,915 --> 01:02:55,514
So if he says that you have to do something,

717
01:02:55,514 --> 01:02:58,594
then he cracks the whip and everyone falls in line.

718
01:02:58,594 --> 01:03:00,315
So this was this idea that arose

719
01:03:00,315 --> 01:03:01,994
that the mining was too centralized

720
01:03:01,994 --> 01:03:04,354
for these sidechains to be secure.

721
01:03:04,354 --> 01:03:07,074
Stratum V2 is an idea for,

722
01:03:07,794 --> 01:03:08,635
um,

723
01:03:09,994 --> 01:03:12,275
that supposedly will help that problem.

724
01:03:12,275 --> 01:03:14,915
I don't actually think that it will.

725
01:03:14,915 --> 01:03:16,275
I was, I did the mining,

726
01:03:16,275 --> 01:03:18,675
I did a mining panel at Bitcoin 2023,

727
01:03:18,675 --> 01:03:23,675
and there was a leader of a mining pool there

728
01:03:23,835 --> 01:03:28,755
who said something along the lines of Stratum V2 is,

729
01:03:29,755 --> 01:03:32,195
what people mean when they say Stratum V2

730
01:03:32,195 --> 01:03:34,434
is they're talking about the job negotiation,

731
01:03:35,354 --> 01:03:37,315
which it allows the,

732
01:03:37,315 --> 01:03:39,354
it does a lot of important things

733
01:03:39,354 --> 01:03:40,434
that are not controversial

734
01:03:40,434 --> 01:03:42,195
and that everyone agrees should be done,

735
01:03:42,195 --> 01:03:44,434
like, you know, like authentication and stuff.

736
01:03:44,434 --> 01:03:47,315
So, so it's a huge improvement.

737
01:03:47,315 --> 01:03:48,835
But one of the things it does

738
01:03:48,835 --> 01:03:53,835
is it allows the small miner to propose a job to the pool

739
01:03:53,954 --> 01:03:55,514
that the pool can just reject.

740
01:03:56,675 --> 01:03:58,395
They can say, but I think I found a block

741
01:03:58,395 --> 01:04:00,234
that pays even more in transaction fees,

742
01:04:00,234 --> 01:04:03,554
or it includes these censored transactions.

743
01:04:03,554 --> 01:04:05,315
And they propose it to the mining pool.

744
01:04:05,315 --> 01:04:06,515
And then if the pool rejects it,

745
01:04:06,515 --> 01:04:08,315
that miner can just sort of,

746
01:04:08,315 --> 01:04:09,874
they have some kind of a,

747
01:04:09,874 --> 01:04:11,714
they at least know that the pool is censoring

748
01:04:11,714 --> 01:04:13,315
and they can like switch to a different pool,

749
01:04:13,315 --> 01:04:14,154
something like that,

750
01:04:14,154 --> 01:04:16,355
and propose the block to a different pool.

751
01:04:16,355 --> 01:04:18,515
So the idea, which is a good one,

752
01:04:18,515 --> 01:04:21,075
this job negotiation idea is a very good one.

753
01:04:22,635 --> 01:04:23,834
It increases the,

754
01:04:23,834 --> 01:04:26,355
we want to always reduce everyone's leverage.

755
01:04:26,355 --> 01:04:28,475
So in particular, we want to reduce the pool's,

756
01:04:28,475 --> 01:04:31,154
everyone is 100% in agreement on this,

757
01:04:31,154 --> 01:04:33,394
that we want to reduce the pool's ability

758
01:04:34,515 --> 01:04:37,874
to censor transactions.

759
01:04:37,874 --> 01:04:39,755
And this is what Stratum V2 tries to do,

760
01:04:39,755 --> 01:04:40,915
but I don't think it actually does that.

761
01:04:40,915 --> 01:04:42,274
I mean, it's not actually Stratum V2,

762
01:04:42,274 --> 01:04:43,834
it's job negotiation.

763
01:04:43,834 --> 01:04:45,834
And the job negotiation doesn't really have teeth

764
01:04:45,834 --> 01:04:47,874
because the pool can just turn it down,

765
01:04:47,874 --> 01:04:49,874
which means that it's not really that different

766
01:04:49,874 --> 01:04:53,114
from what already happens today.

767
01:04:53,114 --> 01:04:56,355
And I don't think that the people who push Stratum V2,

768
01:04:56,355 --> 01:04:58,674
those are people on Twitter who don't mine.

769
01:04:58,674 --> 01:05:03,674
I don't think any real miner at all actually supports,

770
01:05:03,755 --> 01:05:05,355
maybe even Stratum V2,

771
01:05:05,355 --> 01:05:06,795
maybe they don't even care.

772
01:05:06,795 --> 01:05:09,195
I think that this is one of the illusions

773
01:05:09,195 --> 01:05:10,394
created by Twitter,

774
01:05:10,394 --> 01:05:14,714
but it's a talking point that politically,

775
01:05:14,714 --> 01:05:19,475
it sanitizes the idea of the mining being too centralized.

776
01:05:19,475 --> 01:05:20,475
No one has ever worked out

777
01:05:20,475 --> 01:05:24,035
how to define this mining centralization argument,

778
01:05:24,035 --> 01:05:25,434
which is, except for me,

779
01:05:25,434 --> 01:05:27,315
and what I just told you now,

780
01:05:27,315 --> 01:05:30,434
which is this idea that Tianwu makes all the,

781
01:05:30,434 --> 01:05:31,515
someone has to,

782
01:05:32,955 --> 01:05:35,154
someone out there can tell miners what to do,

783
01:05:35,154 --> 01:05:36,674
even if it's not in the best interest

784
01:05:36,674 --> 01:05:37,594
of the Bitcoin protocol,

785
01:05:37,594 --> 01:05:38,475
and they'll do it.

786
01:05:39,755 --> 01:05:40,594
I don't really believe that,

787
01:05:40,594 --> 01:05:42,594
but at least that's a definition of what it is.

788
01:05:42,594 --> 01:05:45,515
And Stratum V2 is the magic spell that people say

789
01:05:45,515 --> 01:05:49,674
to convince themselves that this problem has been fixed.

790
01:05:49,674 --> 01:05:51,714
So that's nice.

791
01:05:51,714 --> 01:05:54,434
So I think all in all,

792
01:05:57,475 --> 01:05:59,355
all's well that ends well.

793
01:05:59,355 --> 01:06:03,315
A great Shakespearean play that everyone should watch.

794
01:06:03,315 --> 01:06:05,955
I think the BBC has them all for free now.

795
01:06:05,955 --> 01:06:07,554
They're on YouTube or something.

796
01:06:08,834 --> 01:06:11,195
What a great way to end an afternoon.

797
01:06:11,195 --> 01:06:13,195
Yes, very well said.

798
01:06:13,195 --> 01:06:14,755
Thank you for that explanation.

799
01:06:14,755 --> 01:06:16,515
And yes, Greg Slepak,

800
01:06:16,515 --> 01:06:18,674
when I read the old emails

801
01:06:18,674 --> 01:06:21,235
from the Bitcoin dev email list from years ago,

802
01:06:21,235 --> 01:06:23,114
back in like 2015,

803
01:06:23,114 --> 01:06:26,035
he was having like lengthy paragraphs

804
01:06:26,035 --> 01:06:28,834
back and forth with you about merged mining

805
01:06:28,834 --> 01:06:29,755
and things like that.

806
01:06:29,755 --> 01:06:33,355
So it's really interesting to see thinkers like that

807
01:06:33,355 --> 01:06:35,834
who've contributed a lot of content

808
01:06:35,834 --> 01:06:38,554
to the discussion about Bitcoin,

809
01:06:38,554 --> 01:06:39,955
evolving in their views

810
01:06:39,955 --> 01:06:43,114
with the latest understanding and perspective.

811
01:06:43,114 --> 01:06:44,035
So that's awesome.

812
01:06:44,035 --> 01:06:47,795
And I've enjoyed the one or two conversations

813
01:06:47,795 --> 01:06:49,114
that we've had with Greg here,

814
01:06:49,114 --> 01:06:50,355
and I hope he comes back.

815
01:06:50,355 --> 01:06:52,714
Very friendly guy, very smart.

816
01:06:53,635 --> 01:06:54,475
The next tweet-

817
01:06:54,515 --> 01:06:55,874
He's a great guy.

818
01:06:55,874 --> 01:06:57,274
Yeah, yeah, he's a great person,

819
01:06:57,274 --> 01:07:00,554
as are so many people in the community here.

820
01:07:00,554 --> 01:07:04,554
I remember him, I think from maybe it was 2016, April.

821
01:07:05,714 --> 01:07:06,554
He's very interesting.

822
01:07:06,554 --> 01:07:09,635
He attended, we attended a workshop on digital identity,

823
01:07:09,635 --> 01:07:14,635
which partially, partially some of it,

824
01:07:15,075 --> 01:07:18,195
it was partially to prepare for that workshop

825
01:07:18,195 --> 01:07:19,674
that I laid out some of the,

826
01:07:19,674 --> 01:07:23,315
I reviewed the Namecoin, Satoshi's Namecoin ideas.

827
01:07:23,315 --> 01:07:26,154
And I tried to tweak them a little bit,

828
01:07:26,154 --> 01:07:27,515
hopefully improve them.

829
01:07:27,515 --> 01:07:30,434
There was a, Greg Maxwell, one of the most,

830
01:07:32,515 --> 01:07:33,915
I always feel kind of weird about him

831
01:07:33,915 --> 01:07:35,515
because he was responsible for sidechains

832
01:07:35,515 --> 01:07:36,674
and kind of never delivered.

833
01:07:36,674 --> 01:07:37,834
But one of the things,

834
01:07:37,834 --> 01:07:40,075
one of his many interesting things that he's done

835
01:07:40,075 --> 01:07:41,994
is he wrote, I think he wrote this article

836
01:07:41,994 --> 01:07:44,235
called A Namecoin That Doesn't Suck,

837
01:07:44,235 --> 01:07:47,035
which was on the old Bitcoin Wikipedia.

838
01:07:47,035 --> 01:07:49,515
And that was a very interesting one as well.

839
01:07:49,515 --> 01:07:52,274
And so I tried to take into account

840
01:07:54,114 --> 01:07:57,195
all this info when I prepare for that workshop,

841
01:07:57,195 --> 01:07:58,355
which was run by Chris Allen,

842
01:07:58,355 --> 01:08:00,674
who's obsessed with digital identity,

843
01:08:01,635 --> 01:08:04,315
self-sovereign identity, he calls it.

844
01:08:04,315 --> 01:08:06,235
And so, yeah, that was fun, fun time.

845
01:08:08,554 --> 01:08:09,394
Yes.

846
01:08:10,515 --> 01:08:14,154
Our next tweet to discuss is from Isaac Fane.

847
01:08:14,154 --> 01:08:17,874
He correctly describes one of the most interesting

848
01:08:17,874 --> 01:08:21,674
and least discussed parts of drivechain.

849
01:08:21,755 --> 01:08:24,075
In the discourse, rarely do we see someone

850
01:08:24,075 --> 01:08:26,395
who has studied it to understand

851
01:08:26,395 --> 01:08:28,354
that one of the key differences

852
01:08:28,354 --> 01:08:30,994
between drivechain and federated sidechains

853
01:08:30,994 --> 01:08:34,234
is that drivechain establishes a framework

854
01:08:34,234 --> 01:08:37,234
for launching sidechains without the need

855
01:08:37,234 --> 01:08:40,914
to go through the work, the inefficient work

856
01:08:40,914 --> 01:08:43,914
of selecting people socially

857
01:08:43,914 --> 01:08:47,034
to participate in a federated multisig.

858
01:08:47,034 --> 01:08:50,114
Instead, there's a framework in drivechain

859
01:08:50,114 --> 01:08:53,955
to reuse the proof of work of the Bitcoin miners

860
01:08:53,955 --> 01:08:56,635
in a seamless and peer-to-peer way.

861
01:08:56,635 --> 01:08:59,994
So what he writes is, let's see,

862
01:08:59,994 --> 01:09:01,075
why it's great.

863
01:09:01,075 --> 01:09:04,955
Drivechain provides a canonical, easy-to-reuse pattern

864
01:09:04,955 --> 01:09:06,515
for launching sidechains

865
01:09:06,515 --> 01:09:08,874
with consistent security properties.

866
01:09:08,874 --> 01:09:11,914
This stimulates innovation and limit risk

867
01:09:11,914 --> 01:09:16,595
with experimental bridge slash federated models.

868
01:09:16,595 --> 01:09:19,794
No second-guessing L1 mining incentives, just launch it.

869
01:09:20,474 --> 01:09:21,835
So that's quite a take.

870
01:09:21,835 --> 01:09:23,914
I'm not sure everyone would love that take.

871
01:09:23,914 --> 01:09:28,275
For example, our dear friend, Moon Settler,

872
01:09:29,234 --> 01:09:31,395
I've been chatting with him one-on-one lately.

873
01:09:31,395 --> 01:09:33,234
He has a conservative mindset,

874
01:09:33,234 --> 01:09:36,755
which I completely support and understand.

875
01:09:36,755 --> 01:09:40,715
And this guy, Isaac, is tweeting, let's just do this.

876
01:09:40,715 --> 01:09:43,874
So I think that the happy medium is,

877
01:09:43,874 --> 01:09:45,595
now that we've had eight years of discussion

878
01:09:45,595 --> 01:09:48,354
on drivechain, thorough analysis,

879
01:09:48,354 --> 01:09:51,994
as Adam Back has tweeted earlier this year,

880
01:09:51,994 --> 01:09:55,075
it's been validated and tested fully.

881
01:09:55,075 --> 01:09:58,354
So the design has been validated and tested.

882
01:09:58,354 --> 01:10:01,715
That was one of his tweets, Adam Back.

883
01:10:01,715 --> 01:10:06,715
So I think Isaac's enthusiasm is shared by many people.

884
01:10:07,874 --> 01:10:11,434
And the next one we should discuss is Moon Settler.

885
01:10:11,434 --> 01:10:14,034
So I'll put his tweet up on the stage.

886
01:10:15,114 --> 01:10:17,474
He writes, and this is quite an interesting tweet

887
01:10:17,474 --> 01:10:20,155
with a lot of nuance, which is typical of Moon Settler,

888
01:10:20,155 --> 01:10:22,994
a very careful thinker who has a lot of things to say

889
01:10:22,994 --> 01:10:25,635
about CTV as well as drivechain.

890
01:10:25,635 --> 01:10:30,114
And I think right now might even be hosting a space on CTV

891
01:10:30,114 --> 01:10:32,515
or was at least an hour ago.

892
01:10:32,515 --> 01:10:34,955
He writes, it is entirely possible

893
01:10:34,955 --> 01:10:37,354
that drivechains could provide tremendous value

894
01:10:37,354 --> 01:10:41,674
with not a single current adopter using them, even once.

895
01:10:41,674 --> 01:10:45,034
So that's not an argument as far as I'm concerned,

896
01:10:45,034 --> 01:10:46,674
I would probably not use them either.

897
01:10:46,674 --> 01:10:50,234
Hard to tell without seeing the utility in action.

898
01:10:50,234 --> 01:10:52,234
And what he means there, I think,

899
01:10:52,234 --> 01:10:57,234
is that the existence of drivechain would deprive altcoins

900
01:10:58,275 --> 01:11:01,234
of their most powerful narrative.

901
01:11:01,234 --> 01:11:03,434
The most powerful narrative of altcoins

902
01:11:03,434 --> 01:11:08,075
is that something can't be built on Bitcoin peer to peer,

903
01:11:08,075 --> 01:11:10,595
and therefore it must be built on an altcoin.

904
01:11:10,595 --> 01:11:14,234
But if Bitcoin achieves the extensibility

905
01:11:14,234 --> 01:11:15,554
that drivechain would offer,

906
01:11:15,554 --> 01:11:20,554
then all of Ethereum, all of Monero, Zcash, Chainlink,

907
01:11:21,114 --> 01:11:22,794
all of these ideas with each

908
01:11:22,794 --> 01:11:25,275
with their interesting features and tools,

909
01:11:25,275 --> 01:11:28,554
all of those blockchains could be linked to Bitcoin

910
01:11:28,554 --> 01:11:31,234
using a peer-to-peer two-way peg.

911
01:11:31,234 --> 01:11:34,234
And then all of the features and functionality

912
01:11:34,234 --> 01:11:36,354
wouldn't have to exist on an altcoin.

913
01:11:37,395 --> 01:11:40,195
So if those altcoins have any utility,

914
01:11:40,195 --> 01:11:42,914
then that use would perhaps flow

915
01:11:42,914 --> 01:11:44,635
to Bitcoin's sidechains.

916
01:11:44,635 --> 01:11:47,034
And if not, then the altcoins would just cease to exist

917
01:11:47,034 --> 01:11:48,955
because their narrative was removed.

918
01:11:48,955 --> 01:11:52,635
As we know from the Ethereum white paper back in 2014,

919
01:11:52,635 --> 01:11:57,635
Vitalik wrote that to achieve greater freedom,

920
01:11:57,715 --> 01:12:00,914
to create tools on a blockchain, to create features,

921
01:12:00,914 --> 01:12:02,195
we need a new blockchain.

922
01:12:02,195 --> 01:12:05,395
So that's the narrative that launched Ethereum.

923
01:12:05,395 --> 01:12:07,835
Bitcoin can't support it.

924
01:12:07,835 --> 01:12:11,114
But if with drivechain, Bitcoin can support these things,

925
01:12:11,114 --> 01:12:13,275
and therefore the central narrative of altcoins

926
01:12:13,275 --> 01:12:14,755
would be removed.

927
01:12:14,755 --> 01:12:17,955
And Fiatjaf has written to that same effect

928
01:12:17,955 --> 01:12:20,395
that drivechains have the potential

929
01:12:20,395 --> 01:12:25,395
to greatly diminish the narrative and value of the altcoins.

930
01:12:29,234 --> 01:12:32,234
So that's a really interesting take by Moon Settler.

931
01:12:32,234 --> 01:12:33,994
I think SuperTestNet has also written

932
01:12:33,994 --> 01:12:36,155
that he supports drivechain,

933
01:12:36,155 --> 01:12:37,955
even though he's not sure he would actually use one.

934
01:12:37,955 --> 01:12:40,315
So some people have a tentative approach with their money.

935
01:12:40,354 --> 01:12:41,515
And of course, I appreciate that.

936
01:12:41,515 --> 01:12:44,994
We don't want to lose money in something experimental.

937
01:12:44,994 --> 01:12:46,515
But a lot of people want to see it work.

938
01:12:46,515 --> 01:12:48,195
And then once it's working,

939
01:12:48,195 --> 01:12:49,434
they don't want to be the first person

940
01:12:49,434 --> 01:12:53,674
to walk across the new bridge over the San Francisco Bay.

941
01:12:53,674 --> 01:12:56,635
But once everyone's been using it,

942
01:12:56,635 --> 01:12:59,715
then they're comfortable using the bridge, so.

943
01:12:59,715 --> 01:13:03,595
Would drivechain crush the exchanges

944
01:13:03,595 --> 01:13:05,554
like Coinbase and Gemini?

945
01:13:05,554 --> 01:13:07,395
Somebody at the Bitcoin conference,

946
01:13:07,395 --> 01:13:08,354
like I made that argument,

947
01:13:08,354 --> 01:13:10,234
and somebody at the Bitcoin conference said,

948
01:13:10,994 --> 01:13:12,635
no, there would still be exchanges

949
01:13:12,635 --> 01:13:17,635
between sidechain Bitcoins on exchanges.

950
01:13:18,195 --> 01:13:20,354
Is that true or?

951
01:13:20,354 --> 01:13:23,595
Well, I think what is true is that

952
01:13:24,515 --> 01:13:26,195
there's a couple of different points to that.

953
01:13:26,195 --> 01:13:29,794
But one is that the slow return in the Bith 300 system,

954
01:13:29,794 --> 01:13:32,715
the three to six month peg out,

955
01:13:33,794 --> 01:13:35,595
that is inconvenient for people.

956
01:13:35,595 --> 01:13:37,114
So some people would want to sell,

957
01:13:37,114 --> 01:13:38,715
just like we have like a fixed income,

958
01:13:38,755 --> 01:13:41,715
like we have a bond market basically in the real world,

959
01:13:41,715 --> 01:13:44,114
there would be some people who would just sell,

960
01:13:44,114 --> 01:13:47,395
they'd sell the coins on one chain for the main chain coins

961
01:13:47,395 --> 01:13:50,234
and they'd pay some kind of fee or some kind of discount.

962
01:13:51,155 --> 01:13:52,914
And that would probably be very small

963
01:13:52,914 --> 01:13:55,755
because anyone with layer one coins can sell them.

964
01:13:55,755 --> 01:13:58,874
But you would still need like market infrastructure,

965
01:13:58,874 --> 01:13:59,994
you need like OTC

966
01:13:59,994 --> 01:14:02,275
or you need people making markets or something.

967
01:14:02,275 --> 01:14:04,275
So you'd still, that'd be like 99 cents on the dollar.

968
01:14:04,275 --> 01:14:05,715
But that'd be something like a bond market

969
01:14:05,715 --> 01:14:09,034
or like some kind of interest rate thing.

970
01:14:09,034 --> 01:14:12,434
And that, so that would always be the case.

971
01:14:12,434 --> 01:14:14,234
I don't know if that would be anywhere near

972
01:14:14,234 --> 01:14:19,234
what these exchanges make in terms of revenue in their,

973
01:14:19,395 --> 01:14:21,034
you know, altcoin casino world.

974
01:14:21,034 --> 01:14:23,554
They probably are making a lot of money.

975
01:14:23,554 --> 01:14:25,914
One interesting thing to keep in mind about the exchanges

976
01:14:25,914 --> 01:14:30,914
is they are strong, very strong allies of Bitcoin at first,

977
01:14:31,595 --> 01:14:32,835
but as time goes on,

978
01:14:33,155 --> 01:14:36,075
they slowly switch to becoming enemies of Bitcoin

979
01:14:36,075 --> 01:14:39,515
because they actually are in a case where

980
01:14:40,554 --> 01:14:42,034
at the very, very end,

981
01:14:44,155 --> 01:14:47,595
at the very end of Bitcoin's project of taking over,

982
01:14:47,595 --> 01:14:50,075
there won't be a need for them

983
01:14:50,075 --> 01:14:52,195
to exchange their fiat currencies anymore.

984
01:14:53,155 --> 01:14:56,234
At which point this inter-site chain transfer thing

985
01:14:56,234 --> 01:14:57,395
would be their only,

986
01:14:59,674 --> 01:15:02,234
the only thing that we would need exchanges for,

987
01:15:02,794 --> 01:15:04,794
although of course you'd have exchange for different things

988
01:15:04,794 --> 01:15:06,755
for other exchange.

989
01:15:06,755 --> 01:15:08,315
But yeah, I think that's an interesting thing

990
01:15:08,315 --> 01:15:10,114
to keep in mind about the exchanges.

991
01:15:15,315 --> 01:15:17,755
All right, well said.

992
01:15:18,715 --> 01:15:19,794
But yeah, I think for now,

993
01:15:19,794 --> 01:15:22,075
it's certainly the case that this would just add revenue.

994
01:15:22,075 --> 01:15:23,474
They'd have this new revenue stream

995
01:15:23,474 --> 01:15:24,994
because they'd list every type chain.

996
01:15:24,994 --> 01:15:26,075
They'd trade from like, you know,

997
01:15:26,075 --> 01:15:29,034
they'd go from being like 99 cents, 98 cents on the dollar,

998
01:15:29,034 --> 01:15:30,955
99 and a half cents on the dollar.

999
01:15:30,955 --> 01:15:33,075
They would still be trading around.

1000
01:15:33,075 --> 01:15:35,595
So for now that is true,

1001
01:15:35,595 --> 01:15:37,315
but ultimately the exchanges will flip

1002
01:15:37,315 --> 01:15:40,755
and become enemies of hyper-Bitcoinization anyway,

1003
01:15:41,914 --> 01:15:44,554
since they're middlemen between fiat and,

1004
01:15:44,554 --> 01:15:46,354
they cannot have,

1005
01:15:46,354 --> 01:15:47,635
the ideal thing for the exchanges

1006
01:15:47,635 --> 01:15:51,315
is that they're all in a state of equilibrium

1007
01:15:51,315 --> 01:15:53,874
and no one gains too strong of an upper hand.

1008
01:15:53,874 --> 01:15:58,034
So that's an intriguing incentive that they have.

1009
01:15:58,034 --> 01:15:59,354
Also, I kind of wonder now,

1010
01:15:59,354 --> 01:16:00,635
I mean, they have the most money.

1011
01:16:01,315 --> 01:16:02,155
They have tons of money

1012
01:16:02,155 --> 01:16:03,994
and we kind of are caught now

1013
01:16:03,994 --> 01:16:05,554
in that space where Bitcoin is not,

1014
01:16:05,554 --> 01:16:07,554
it hasn't been banned or stamped out,

1015
01:16:08,395 --> 01:16:09,595
but it also,

1016
01:16:10,994 --> 01:16:13,114
no one seems to be seriously talking about

1017
01:16:13,114 --> 01:16:15,234
like hyper-Bitcoinization the way people were.

1018
01:16:15,234 --> 01:16:18,874
They very much were in 2010, 2011, 2012,

1019
01:16:18,874 --> 01:16:23,635
people were like, how do we get this to take over?

1020
01:16:23,635 --> 01:16:24,794
So I do kind of wonder

1021
01:16:24,794 --> 01:16:27,034
if that's actually the exchanges,

1022
01:16:27,034 --> 01:16:29,794
enormous wealth and their ability to hire people

1023
01:16:29,794 --> 01:16:31,034
and their lobbying.

1024
01:16:31,874 --> 01:16:32,914
I kind of wonder about that.

1025
01:16:32,914 --> 01:16:35,354
I think the bigger thing is, of course,

1026
01:16:35,354 --> 01:16:37,315
that just change takes a lot of time.

1027
01:16:37,315 --> 01:16:38,595
People don't understand Bitcoin.

1028
01:16:38,595 --> 01:16:39,635
Bitcoin is not ready.

1029
01:16:39,635 --> 01:16:40,794
Bitcoin is not technically ready.

1030
01:16:40,794 --> 01:16:43,794
Like if the traditional financial system collapsed tomorrow,

1031
01:16:44,635 --> 01:16:48,395
Bitcoin would not be ready to replace it.

1032
01:16:48,395 --> 01:16:50,395
So those are bigger things,

1033
01:16:50,395 --> 01:16:52,195
but that's something to keep in mind

1034
01:16:52,195 --> 01:16:53,634
about the exchanges, I think.

1035
01:16:54,634 --> 01:16:55,475
Well said.

1036
01:16:58,554 --> 01:17:02,554
Our next tweet that we should discuss is from Post Capone.

1037
01:17:02,554 --> 01:17:06,154
Post Capone is one of the most active members

1038
01:17:06,154 --> 01:17:09,475
in the ordinals and inscriptions, Twitter spaces.

1039
01:17:09,475 --> 01:17:12,394
And he has a wealth of technical knowledge.

1040
01:17:12,394 --> 01:17:15,434
He really understands Bitcoin deeply

1041
01:17:15,434 --> 01:17:17,235
and is quite familiar with drivechain

1042
01:17:17,235 --> 01:17:20,434
as a really friendly person to chat with.

1043
01:17:20,434 --> 01:17:25,434
And he writes, as a reply to something I wrote,

1044
01:17:27,034 --> 01:17:29,434
I wrote a tweet about how Bitcoin,

1045
01:17:29,434 --> 01:17:31,514
how drivechain potentially solves

1046
01:17:31,514 --> 01:17:32,674
the security budget problem.

1047
01:17:32,674 --> 01:17:37,115
And he wrote, if BIP300 and 301 could fox it,

1048
01:17:38,394 --> 01:17:41,315
then there is at least one fix

1049
01:17:41,315 --> 01:17:45,315
that doesn't require a modification of the supply cap.

1050
01:17:45,315 --> 01:17:47,995
Given a minimum of 30 years to resolve,

1051
01:17:48,595 --> 01:17:50,914
given a minimum of 30 years to resolve,

1052
01:17:50,914 --> 01:17:53,554
let's assume there comes to be two fixes.

1053
01:17:55,355 --> 01:17:57,475
Evan will still refer to,

1054
01:17:57,475 --> 01:17:59,514
oh, everyone will still refer

1055
01:17:59,514 --> 01:18:02,115
to the 21 million supply cap as a myth.

1056
01:18:02,115 --> 01:18:07,115
Oh, he's referring to Evan, Evan Ness, the Ethereum maxi.

1057
01:18:07,434 --> 01:18:11,274
So what happened here was this Ethereum promoter,

1058
01:18:11,274 --> 01:18:13,315
Evan Van Ness, wrote about how Bitcoin

1059
01:18:13,315 --> 01:18:15,394
will need to do inflation in the future

1060
01:18:15,394 --> 01:18:18,794
because of the low fees that are persistently present

1061
01:18:18,794 --> 01:18:22,154
in Bitcoin's market for block space.

1062
01:18:22,154 --> 01:18:24,634
And I wrote, drivechain could be adopted

1063
01:18:24,634 --> 01:18:26,914
and then merged mining could continue.

1064
01:18:26,914 --> 01:18:30,075
And then Post Capone wrote, yes, basically.

1065
01:18:30,075 --> 01:18:31,554
I could paraphrase him by saying,

1066
01:18:31,554 --> 01:18:35,195
yes, Bitcoin could adopt drivechain

1067
01:18:35,195 --> 01:18:36,715
and then we could see high fees

1068
01:18:36,715 --> 01:18:40,475
and that would avoid the need for tail issuance.

1069
01:18:40,475 --> 01:18:43,794
So Post Capone understands

1070
01:18:43,794 --> 01:18:45,355
what we're talking about here very well

1071
01:18:46,315 --> 01:18:49,674
and is tentatively optimistic

1072
01:18:49,674 --> 01:18:51,154
that drivechain could be adopted

1073
01:18:51,154 --> 01:18:54,075
and then that would be a fix.

1074
01:18:54,075 --> 01:18:56,195
I believe this security budget issue

1075
01:18:56,195 --> 01:18:58,995
is something that Bitcoiners really can understand

1076
01:18:58,995 --> 01:19:00,914
without being very technical.

1077
01:19:00,914 --> 01:19:03,075
Like ossification is rather technical

1078
01:19:04,154 --> 01:19:07,075
and network effects are rather technical

1079
01:19:07,075 --> 01:19:08,315
as an economic idea.

1080
01:19:08,315 --> 01:19:10,115
But this security budget problem,

1081
01:19:10,115 --> 01:19:14,235
I think that that can reach a lot more Bitcoiners

1082
01:19:14,235 --> 01:19:16,955
than the other rationales for drivechain.

1083
01:19:16,955 --> 01:19:19,514
And I think it could captivate people

1084
01:19:19,514 --> 01:19:22,674
and get them motivated to understand

1085
01:19:22,674 --> 01:19:24,914
the other more complex parts of drivechain.

1086
01:19:25,995 --> 01:19:28,995
So it will be interesting to see how the flippening,

1087
01:19:28,995 --> 01:19:33,995
sorry, how the halvening in just less than a year from now

1088
01:19:34,634 --> 01:19:37,355
motivates more interest in drivechain.

1089
01:19:40,075 --> 01:19:41,115
What do you think, Ian?

1090
01:19:41,115 --> 01:19:44,355
Do you think that with the halvening coming up

1091
01:19:44,355 --> 01:19:45,794
in less than a year,

1092
01:19:45,794 --> 01:19:50,794
people will talk about how fees are not very high?

1093
01:19:50,794 --> 01:19:52,634
Or do you think that the recent fee spike

1094
01:19:52,634 --> 01:19:54,995
with ordinals and inscriptions

1095
01:19:54,995 --> 01:19:58,355
is going to dampen discussion

1096
01:19:58,355 --> 01:20:00,394
of the security budget for some time?

1097
01:20:01,674 --> 01:20:03,754
I think the fact that it's a fee spike

1098
01:20:03,754 --> 01:20:08,754
means that it's not gonna affect the conversation too much.

1099
01:20:08,914 --> 01:20:11,154
Like if fees went up and stayed high,

1100
01:20:11,154 --> 01:20:16,154
then the people, they would have a stronger argument.

1101
01:20:16,875 --> 01:20:20,634
But since it's a spike, nobody wants fees to be high.

1102
01:20:20,634 --> 01:20:25,634
That argument is weak because nobody wants fees to be high.

1103
01:20:25,794 --> 01:20:30,154
So the market doesn't want fees high.

1104
01:20:30,154 --> 01:20:32,315
So the idea that transaction fees

1105
01:20:32,315 --> 01:20:35,394
will replace the subsidy completely

1106
01:20:35,394 --> 01:20:38,034
is so flawed in my opinion.

1107
01:20:39,514 --> 01:20:40,355
Thank you.

1108
01:20:41,674 --> 01:20:42,514
Cool.

1109
01:20:43,674 --> 01:20:45,315
All right.

1110
01:20:45,315 --> 01:20:48,115
Well, we've talked about many different tweets today.

1111
01:20:48,115 --> 01:20:53,115
The very last I wanna share is one of my favorites.

1112
01:20:53,674 --> 01:20:56,195
This is from Gabriel Kerman,

1113
01:20:56,195 --> 01:20:59,434
an outstanding member of the Bitcoin community

1114
01:20:59,434 --> 01:21:02,195
who has joined us in these Twitter spaces

1115
01:21:02,195 --> 01:21:03,995
once or twice in the past

1116
01:21:03,995 --> 01:21:07,315
to talk about drivechain, Rootstock,

1117
01:21:07,355 --> 01:21:11,355
and his optimistic view for Bitcoin

1118
01:21:11,355 --> 01:21:13,355
using sidechains in the future.

1119
01:21:14,394 --> 01:21:16,995
Gabriel wrote in this tweet

1120
01:21:16,995 --> 01:21:19,554
that I selected and put in the nest now,

1121
01:21:19,554 --> 01:21:20,715
and this will be the last one

1122
01:21:20,715 --> 01:21:23,034
I think that we talk about today,

1123
01:21:23,034 --> 01:21:24,595
that he writes,

1124
01:21:24,595 --> 01:21:28,475
"'Absolutely we count on the Bitcoin Core devs

1125
01:21:28,475 --> 01:21:31,394
"'to implement the drivechain soft fork

1126
01:21:31,394 --> 01:21:36,394
"'as soon as possible to make sidechains 2.0 a reality.'"

1127
01:21:38,315 --> 01:21:40,514
So there it is.

1128
01:21:41,475 --> 01:21:44,075
We need the Bitcoin technical community

1129
01:21:44,075 --> 01:21:49,075
to come together and embark on this deed of courage,

1130
01:21:50,075 --> 01:21:53,634
this bold step towards greater innovation,

1131
01:21:54,514 --> 01:21:57,634
which not only would make Bitcoin stronger,

1132
01:21:57,634 --> 01:22:00,754
but as drive chainers,

1133
01:22:00,754 --> 01:22:03,634
we think that it is quite essential

1134
01:22:03,634 --> 01:22:06,274
that Bitcoin adopt this change.

1135
01:22:06,315 --> 01:22:07,914
Just like SegWit was something

1136
01:22:07,914 --> 01:22:10,034
the Bitcoin community came together and did,

1137
01:22:10,034 --> 01:22:12,674
and Taproot, drivechain would be something

1138
01:22:12,674 --> 01:22:15,235
the Bitcoin community can come together and do.

1139
01:22:16,075 --> 01:22:17,835
Led by the technical community

1140
01:22:17,835 --> 01:22:19,674
within the Bitcoin community,

1141
01:22:19,674 --> 01:22:24,674
drivechain would enable immense value creation for Bitcoin,

1142
01:22:25,034 --> 01:22:26,754
sending Bitcoin's price up,

1143
01:22:27,754 --> 01:22:30,115
devaluing altcoins, increasing dominance,

1144
01:22:30,115 --> 01:22:33,075
increasing the status and reputation of Bitcoin,

1145
01:22:33,075 --> 01:22:35,235
increasing the number of users of Bitcoin,

1146
01:22:35,235 --> 01:22:37,674
bringing more fees to the miners,

1147
01:22:37,674 --> 01:22:40,274
and bringing the world together

1148
01:22:40,274 --> 01:22:42,315
for sound money and freedom.

1149
01:22:43,995 --> 01:22:45,995
Drivechain would be a big part of that.

1150
01:22:48,075 --> 01:22:49,674
It's very exciting.

1151
01:22:49,674 --> 01:22:52,355
And what's great is that things are moving forward,

1152
01:22:52,355 --> 01:22:54,674
not just in the conversations around drivechain,

1153
01:22:54,674 --> 01:22:57,794
but there's actual concrete work being done right now

1154
01:22:57,794 --> 01:22:59,914
to rebase the code.

1155
01:22:59,914 --> 01:23:03,914
A Bitcoin expert is rebasing the code carefully.

1156
01:23:03,914 --> 01:23:07,315
And when that is done, likely this year,

1157
01:23:07,315 --> 01:23:11,475
there can be a pull request to add drivechain code

1158
01:23:11,475 --> 01:23:16,475
to Bitcoin, making Bitcoin much stronger.

1159
01:23:20,274 --> 01:23:25,075
Well, what else should we talk about

1160
01:23:25,075 --> 01:23:26,315
or should we wrap for today?

1161
01:23:26,315 --> 01:23:28,475
I think we've been going for about an hour.

1162
01:23:29,794 --> 01:23:32,115
Yeah, I was gonna say the drivechain pull request

1163
01:23:32,154 --> 01:23:35,394
will bring a lot of the rats out into the light.

1164
01:23:35,394 --> 01:23:36,235
I can say that.

1165
01:23:39,674 --> 01:23:42,634
Like the enemies of drivechain.

1166
01:23:42,634 --> 01:23:43,475
But I think that's good

1167
01:23:43,475 --> 01:23:45,034
because then they'll have to point to

1168
01:23:45,034 --> 01:23:46,914
a specific line of code.

1169
01:23:46,914 --> 01:23:48,955
I think it'll actually help in the debate a lot.

1170
01:23:48,955 --> 01:23:50,794
So I think I'll do that.

1171
01:23:50,794 --> 01:23:54,075
I think I'll send also a mailing list,

1172
01:23:55,075 --> 01:23:56,595
Bitcoin dev mailing list thing,

1173
01:23:56,595 --> 01:24:01,595
just asking people if anyone actually has any objections.

1174
01:24:03,115 --> 01:24:04,475
Or if they are all just,

1175
01:24:04,475 --> 01:24:06,794
if everyone's just gonna silently admit

1176
01:24:06,794 --> 01:24:08,434
that they don't have them anymore.

1177
01:24:12,115 --> 01:24:14,554
Well, that'll be interesting.

1178
01:24:15,554 --> 01:24:16,754
Looking forward to that.

1179
01:24:18,794 --> 01:24:19,794
That'll be exciting.

1180
01:24:22,674 --> 01:24:27,394
There's a lot of great energy that comes from Adam Back,

1181
01:24:27,394 --> 01:24:29,835
Mike Tidwell, and many others in the space

1182
01:24:29,835 --> 01:24:32,274
who are excited about these possibilities.

1183
01:24:32,274 --> 01:24:35,355
And the number of Bitcoiners we've talked about today

1184
01:24:35,355 --> 01:24:36,955
is quite significant.

1185
01:24:36,955 --> 01:24:39,274
All of the Bitcoiners we've posted in the nest,

1186
01:24:39,274 --> 01:24:42,434
and there are many more that we could add.

1187
01:24:42,434 --> 01:24:45,434
So many people have tweeted support for drivechain,

1188
01:24:45,434 --> 01:24:49,034
and we have brilliant thinkers like Rheindel

1189
01:24:49,034 --> 01:24:50,754
asking questions about it,

1190
01:24:50,754 --> 01:24:55,754
and exploring options and ideas related to sidechains.

1191
01:24:55,754 --> 01:24:59,195
And there's a lot of great ideas out there.

1192
01:24:59,195 --> 01:25:00,955
Some of them are very new,

1193
01:25:00,955 --> 01:25:04,955
like zero knowledge proofs and roll ups and things.

1194
01:25:04,955 --> 01:25:08,914
Others are time tested and more conservative

1195
01:25:08,914 --> 01:25:13,914
and very rock solid and less new like drivechain.

1196
01:25:14,434 --> 01:25:17,794
And that is a really big advantage

1197
01:25:17,794 --> 01:25:20,995
in the intellectual space within Bitcoin.

1198
01:25:20,995 --> 01:25:23,315
People in Bitcoin like conservative,

1199
01:25:24,195 --> 01:25:27,554
careful, thoughtful, well-studied ideas.

1200
01:25:27,554 --> 01:25:29,955
We don't move fast and break things.

1201
01:25:29,955 --> 01:25:31,315
We carefully do things

1202
01:25:31,315 --> 01:25:34,075
because our project is the most important one.

1203
01:25:34,075 --> 01:25:36,514
And that's why drivechain's time has come now

1204
01:25:36,514 --> 01:25:40,274
after eight years of maturation and development.

1205
01:25:40,274 --> 01:25:43,794
It is now no longer a new idea.

1206
01:25:43,794 --> 01:25:46,034
It is a well-studied idea.

1207
01:25:46,034 --> 01:25:48,154
And that's a huge advantage

1208
01:25:48,154 --> 01:25:50,914
in the market of ideas within Bitcoin.

1209
01:25:53,554 --> 01:25:55,715
Paul, why don't you make our final comment

1210
01:25:55,715 --> 01:25:58,355
and then we'll wrap until Monday

1211
01:25:58,355 --> 01:26:00,754
when our next drivechain Twitter space will be.

1212
01:26:02,715 --> 01:26:04,914
Well, I just really like seeing all the tweets in the nest.

1213
01:26:04,914 --> 01:26:09,195
So I hope we do that again.

1214
01:26:09,195 --> 01:26:10,514
That's kind of cool to see.

1215
01:26:10,514 --> 01:26:12,274
I wish I could have joined earlier.

1216
01:26:13,355 --> 01:26:15,154
I have important real work to do.

1217
01:26:17,154 --> 01:26:20,355
I think in general,

1218
01:26:20,355 --> 01:26:25,075
what people should focus on is what...

1219
01:26:25,075 --> 01:26:26,995
I think what I tried to do with this project

1220
01:26:26,995 --> 01:26:29,914
was very unusual and it didn't really work,

1221
01:26:29,914 --> 01:26:31,355
which is to say,

1222
01:26:31,355 --> 01:26:35,274
I tried to just come up with the best project

1223
01:26:35,274 --> 01:26:39,514
and then I didn't really try to push the project

1224
01:26:39,514 --> 01:26:44,434
or kind of politically wiggle it in.

1225
01:26:44,434 --> 01:26:46,674
If I could do it over, I probably would do that.

1226
01:26:46,674 --> 01:26:50,115
But I just thought we have to stress test Bitcoin itself,

1227
01:26:50,115 --> 01:26:51,434
the community,

1228
01:26:51,434 --> 01:26:52,754
and we have to figure out

1229
01:26:52,754 --> 01:26:57,754
who in the community has the user's best interests in mind.

1230
01:27:00,715 --> 01:27:02,434
And so that was kind of important to me

1231
01:27:02,434 --> 01:27:04,315
to kind of ask that question.

1232
01:27:04,315 --> 01:27:06,835
But as a result, I think that this idea,

1233
01:27:06,835 --> 01:27:09,075
which would have really helped the user,

1234
01:27:09,075 --> 01:27:11,274
was really strongly delayed.

1235
01:27:11,274 --> 01:27:13,195
And I think because of that delay,

1236
01:27:13,195 --> 01:27:14,754
all kinds of things happened,

1237
01:27:14,754 --> 01:27:17,554
including the rise of altcoins such as Ethereum

1238
01:27:17,554 --> 01:27:19,634
and the block size war.

1239
01:27:19,634 --> 01:27:22,434
And so it would have been interesting to do it

1240
01:27:23,115 --> 01:27:24,154
in a slightly different way,

1241
01:27:26,355 --> 01:27:27,195
but I did not.

1242
01:27:27,195 --> 01:27:28,955
So I think that everyone should keep that in mind,

1243
01:27:28,955 --> 01:27:31,995
that what my focus was on

1244
01:27:31,995 --> 01:27:34,075
and what the focus of this idea was on

1245
01:27:34,075 --> 01:27:37,315
is what's best for the end user.

1246
01:27:37,315 --> 01:27:38,514
And as the end user,

1247
01:27:38,514 --> 01:27:42,034
you get to decide what you put your coins into.

1248
01:27:42,034 --> 01:27:43,835
You can destroy your coins,

1249
01:27:43,835 --> 01:27:47,115
you can sell them and buy Solana,

1250
01:27:47,115 --> 01:27:49,794
and you should be able to send them to any kind of script,

1251
01:27:49,794 --> 01:27:53,475
a BIP300 script, if you want to do that.

1252
01:27:53,475 --> 01:27:54,674
Many of the people,

1253
01:27:54,674 --> 01:27:56,674
the large blockers and the scaling war,

1254
01:27:57,595 --> 01:28:01,754
we had a very, very, very comfortable nature of,

1255
01:28:01,754 --> 01:28:03,715
we were very comfortable taking more risks,

1256
01:28:03,715 --> 01:28:07,554
risks of a larger block size and risks of SPV mode.

1257
01:28:07,554 --> 01:28:09,235
So that's what they wanted.

1258
01:28:09,235 --> 01:28:14,195
And it's liberalism to try to allow people

1259
01:28:14,195 --> 01:28:15,195
to do what they wanna do

1260
01:28:15,195 --> 01:28:17,475
as long as it doesn't negatively affect anyone else.

1261
01:28:17,475 --> 01:28:19,634
In this case, it only positively affects other people else.

1262
01:28:20,514 --> 01:28:23,514
In the form of greater transaction fees for all of us

1263
01:28:23,514 --> 01:28:25,235
and higher equilibrium difficulty.

1264
01:28:26,355 --> 01:28:27,634
So that's all I'm trying to say,

1265
01:28:27,634 --> 01:28:30,674
is that this idea,

1266
01:28:30,674 --> 01:28:34,434
I didn't really go through channels

1267
01:28:34,434 --> 01:28:37,115
of warming up to people

1268
01:28:37,115 --> 01:28:39,914
who would have been friendliest to the idea first

1269
01:28:39,914 --> 01:28:42,955
and then getting them to tell their friends.

1270
01:28:42,955 --> 01:28:44,875
I just kind of put the idea out there.

1271
01:28:45,835 --> 01:28:49,955
And so I think now it's a pretty good time to jump ship,

1272
01:28:49,955 --> 01:28:51,475
I say, and support the idea

1273
01:28:51,475 --> 01:28:53,754
because I think that eventually

1274
01:28:53,754 --> 01:28:55,355
the floodgates will burst open

1275
01:28:55,355 --> 01:28:59,595
like probably in the next 30 to 60 days.

1276
01:29:01,034 --> 01:29:02,075
All right.

1277
01:29:02,075 --> 01:29:03,595
Thank you, Paul.

1278
01:29:03,595 --> 01:29:04,955
To those who requested to speak

1279
01:29:04,955 --> 01:29:07,274
and we didn't have time to hear your thoughts,

1280
01:29:07,274 --> 01:29:08,794
please join us next time.

1281
01:29:08,794 --> 01:29:10,154
Thank you for everyone who listens

1282
01:29:10,154 --> 01:29:12,835
and thank you to our listeners who listen on demand.

1283
01:29:12,995 --> 01:29:14,514
These are recorded Twitter spaces

1284
01:29:14,514 --> 01:29:15,715
every Monday and Thursday

1285
01:29:15,715 --> 01:29:17,875
hosted under Drivechain Twitter Spaces.

1286
01:29:17,875 --> 01:29:18,715
You can also-

1287
01:29:18,715 --> 01:29:20,154
I'm gonna do it Friday now, I think.

1288
01:29:20,154 --> 01:29:21,634
Oh yes, of course.

1289
01:29:21,634 --> 01:29:22,475
You're right.

1290
01:29:22,475 --> 01:29:24,195
Mondays and Fridays, correct.

1291
01:29:24,195 --> 01:29:26,034
As today is Friday.

1292
01:29:26,034 --> 01:29:28,394
Mondays and Fridays, twice a week,

1293
01:29:28,394 --> 01:29:30,355
Drivechain Twitter Spaces.

1294
01:29:30,355 --> 01:29:32,995
And you can also find us on layer2labs.com,

1295
01:29:32,995 --> 01:29:34,554
drivechain.info,

1296
01:29:34,554 --> 01:29:36,475
our Telegram group,

1297
01:29:36,475 --> 01:29:40,034
and also on YouTube and elsewhere.

1298
01:29:40,034 --> 01:29:41,394
And of course on GitHub,

1299
01:29:41,394 --> 01:29:42,875
where you can read the Drivechain bits

1300
01:29:42,875 --> 01:29:45,475
and see LayerTwo Labs' code.

1301
01:29:45,475 --> 01:29:46,315
Thanks everyone.

1302
01:29:46,315 --> 01:29:47,634
We'll see you on Monday.

1303
01:29:47,634 --> 01:29:52,715
And if anyone is golfing friends with Jihan Wu,

1304
01:29:52,715 --> 01:29:54,075
tell him about Drivechain.

1305
01:29:55,634 --> 01:29:56,754
He actually already knows.

1306
01:29:56,754 --> 01:29:57,595
He-

1307
01:29:57,595 --> 01:29:59,274
It's really weird because

1308
01:29:59,274 --> 01:30:01,674
what happened was he actually offered

1309
01:30:01,674 --> 01:30:03,794
financial support for Drivechain

1310
01:30:03,794 --> 01:30:08,754
like a week before SegWit2x was announced.

1311
01:30:08,754 --> 01:30:10,355
There's actually a long, long story.

1312
01:30:11,235 --> 01:30:12,914
It's just the twists and turns of the story

1313
01:30:12,914 --> 01:30:14,235
would be very surprising to people,

1314
01:30:14,235 --> 01:30:15,794
but yeah, he did.

1315
01:30:15,794 --> 01:30:16,634
And then he,

1316
01:30:16,634 --> 01:30:19,634
but then what happened was this giant SegWit2x drama

1317
01:30:19,634 --> 01:30:20,955
exploded onto the scenes

1318
01:30:20,955 --> 01:30:24,274
and it made it just like very difficult

1319
01:30:24,274 --> 01:30:27,914
to figure out what to do.

1320
01:30:27,914 --> 01:30:30,914
So I didn't take any of his money, of course.

1321
01:30:30,914 --> 01:30:32,754
And then he was like,

1322
01:30:32,754 --> 01:30:37,514
he exploded and like ejected from the community.

1323
01:30:37,514 --> 01:30:39,034
So I don't even know if he,

1324
01:30:39,034 --> 01:30:43,195
so he's technically not CEO of AntPool anymore.

1325
01:30:43,195 --> 01:30:44,034
I don't know.

1326
01:30:44,034 --> 01:30:46,115
That was the idea at the time though.

1327
01:30:46,115 --> 01:30:49,034
But yeah, I definitely think it's,

1328
01:30:49,034 --> 01:30:52,434
I actually haven't really spoken to miners that much.

1329
01:30:52,434 --> 01:30:54,434
So I think we'll probably start doing that

1330
01:30:54,434 --> 01:30:55,914
because that's considered,

1331
01:30:55,914 --> 01:30:58,835
ever since SegWit2x has been considered impolite.

1332
01:30:58,835 --> 01:31:01,154
But I think now we will start talking to them.

1333
01:31:01,154 --> 01:31:02,955
So that would be good.

1334
01:31:02,955 --> 01:31:04,955
If we're mining pool,

1335
01:31:04,955 --> 01:31:07,355
yeah, if we could get people into mining

1336
01:31:07,394 --> 01:31:12,394
or who are in the mining pool into the space on Monday,

1337
01:31:12,955 --> 01:31:14,754
that would be good.

1338
01:31:14,754 --> 01:31:16,355
So keep that in mind.

1339
01:31:17,394 --> 01:31:18,434
All right.

1340
01:31:18,434 --> 01:31:19,434
Thank you.

1341
01:31:19,434 --> 01:31:20,475
Until next time.

1342
01:31:21,715 --> 01:31:22,554
See ya.