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Hello and welcome to Drivechain.

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This is Drivechain Twitter Spaces.

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We are live on February 23rd,

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2023,

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are experiencing a tremendous uptick in

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interest and for BIP300 and that is

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Bitcoin Improvement Proposal 300 for Hashrate escrow and 301 for

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blind merged mining.

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These

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are developments for Bitcoin which would greatly

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increase Bitcoin extensibility, meaning that people would be able to build all kinds of

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interesting applications and protocols on top of Bitcoin.

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and all demand for those applications and protocols

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would

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accrue to Bitcoin layer one value and block space, strengthening

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Bitcoin, increasing Bitcoin's value and making the whole Bitcoin ecosystem larger,

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more useful, more interesting, more varied, more experimental and innovative, while at

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the same time enabling

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layer one to become more conservative, more ossified, more digital gold,

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higher fees, higher economic security.

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So it's a total win -win in many ways.

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who don't even want to use the drivechains would benefit from their existence in the

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same way

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that we all benefit in many ways from the

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capitalistic economy where all kinds of people are creating

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interesting things, not all of which we personally use, but we benefit from the growth

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of that whole ecosystem economically.

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For example, if someone

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is just holding Bitcoin, LayerOne, token, that person benefits when

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other people are transacting because that transacting fee revenue

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causes higher network security which invites more usage and more

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hodling and more confidence in Bitcoin.

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Bitcoin

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a long -term transaction fee -reliant economic security

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model.

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That is what gave rise in 2018 to the discovery that

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a hostile perpetual majority miner

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attacker would be able to halt the use of the

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block space for honest transactions and ultimately devalue LayerOne token.

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for this reason, people have been concerned since then, since about 2018,

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with that possibility.

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the best answer to that so -called security budget FUD, in my

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view, is to understand that drivechain adoption would eliminate that

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possibility. I believe.

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drivechain adoption would

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lead to the use of a multitude of merged mined sidechains on Bitcoin

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at a rate much higher than present.

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the nature of the merged mining would be advanced in comparison to today.

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It would be blind merged mining instead of ordinary merged mining.

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and it

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would be and blind merged mining means that running the sidechain node is optional for

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the miner and then in addition the peg in peg out situation

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for the sidechains would be peer to peer instead of federated

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currently all bitcoin sidechains are

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federated. That means that 15 parties, in the case of an ordinary

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sidechain, control the multisig where the Bitcoin is held.

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I think that is the reason why the sidechains today do not see extraordinarily large

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use on Bitcoin.

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that Federation

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is unattractive both as a technical matter in terms of its trust model

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and also as a narrative matter.

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People like to be involved in crypto projects that they feel are extremely exciting.

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Nobody wants to work on a boring crypto project.

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And the federation is not an exciting

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model.

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wants to be involved with these trusted third parties on Bitcoin.

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Instead, they would like is a miner controlled peg, I believe.

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The miner controlled peg would be called peer to peer and it would be in fact peer to

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peer because Bitcoin is peer to peer

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therefore Bitcoin mining is peer to peer.

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therefore, a miner -controlled peg is peer to peer.

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So therefore, Drivechains are peer to peer with respect to the peg, with

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respect to

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maintenance of the proper handling of the Bitcoin as it's locked in the hashrate

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escrow, while the sidechain user is holding and transacting

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the sidechain token, which is a synthetic Bitcoin.

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The native token of each drivechain, I believe, will be a synthetic Bitcoin

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that trades one -to -one with Bitcoin.

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And it's very exciting.

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We have a lot of really cool people who like this idea.

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have Adam Back saying it's cool.

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He's said that like in 10 different tweets and statements, know, pretty cool, cool,

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etc.

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He thinks that sidechains are cool.

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This is like one of the coolest people in Bitcoin.

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His name is on the white paper.

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He's the only person named in the white paper.

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Nobody else has their name in the body of the white paper.

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Of course, in the endnotes, we've got awesome people like Wei Dai and others who are

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mentioned in the endnotes, the footnotes.

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in the body of the white paper, there's Adam,

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Back, he's a drivechain of someone who speaks favorably about Drivechain.

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In addition, we've got Fiatjaf, the inventor of Noster,

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a whole bunch of other people.

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Guy Swan speaks about Drivechain very favorably.

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Peter McCormick and a whole host of other interesting people.

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If

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you're curious to know who likes Drivechain, well, I, Henry, of LayerTwo Labs have made

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a list for you.

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And you can read the list if you go to drivechain.info forward slash friends.

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That's drivechain.info forward slash friends.

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And there you will see a

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spreadsheet with the people who have made favorable statements publicly in

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writing about Drivechain.

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So we have a nice friendly statement from Ruben Somson who wrote, I would like

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to see Drivechain happen and run it as an experiment and see how it goes.

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And

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And I think that's great.

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And you can open the link to read the entire context.

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For each of these, it's important to see the whole context.

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You know, I'm a lawyer.

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like to make sure I provide full context.

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That way no one can say I'm taking something out of context.

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So I give a link in every case so you can listen to the entire episode of Ruben's

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podcast on which he made that statement.

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And there's also well -known Bitcoiners like, you know,

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Hampus Schorberg and Anton Kumei Doski and

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Checkmate of Glassnode and Aaron Van

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Mario Gibney, MikeInSpace, Michael Tidwell,

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Vlad Castilla, Torkel Rogstad, Sergio Lerner, Eden Yago,

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John Light,

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the philosophers Andrew Bailey and Troy Cross, and also some multi -coin investors

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and software engineers

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like Eric Wall and his pal Nick Carter and others.

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Many people all across the whole intellectual spectrum of software engineers and

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developers to sidechain enthusiasts like Sovereign Matt, John

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Light, and Eden Yago,

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and Sergio Lerner, well as, you know, cryptographers and blockstream

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engineers like Adam Back, and we have a whole amazing group of people

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who understand all kinds of things about Bitcoin, people who want to see

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more extensibility, and then people

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who want to see more fees for the security budget, as well as people who

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just want to see Bitcoin be the most exciting place.

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So, there's the narrative, the technology, and the economics.

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And those all together create the gestalt that is the drivechain value proposition.

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It's something that strengthens Bitcoin economically.

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It's something that makes Bitcoin more extensible technologically in terms of making

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development larger, more varied, more interesting and more

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exciting. then in addition to those narratives of technology, there's also the

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economics. frankly

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Drivechain,

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has economic value proposition in terms of increasing value accrual to Bitcoin, making

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Bitcoin more valuable.

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go up, like sending Bitcoin to a million dollars a coin, to 15 million dollars a coin.

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Now, of course, those are outlandish numbers.

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And I'm not saying, you know, an investment recommendation,

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Everyone should consult their advisor and their rabbi and priest on what they should do

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in life. I do believe, in my personal opinion, that Drivechain, if

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adopted, has some potential to make Bitcoin much more valuable.

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Even for those people who aren't using the Drivechain at

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all, if you're not using any Drivechain, just holding LayerOne Bitcoin for the next

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hundred years, you still benefit from development and demand

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for Bitcoin. So, will Bitcoin be valuable in 10 years, in 100

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years? Will it be much more valuable, or will it be as valuable as today, or will it

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be less valuable?

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Well, I think the answer to those questions depends on whether or not Bitcoin

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expands its extensibility by adopting drivechain to enable a multitude

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of experimental and innovative sidechains that are peer -to -peer.

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That will make Bitcoin more exciting,

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It'll make people build on Bitcoin.

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And when you build on Bitcoin, you increase demand for Bitcoin because there's only 21

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million. See, that's the real cool thing about drivechain.

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It keeps the hard cap in place.

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The synthetic Bitcoin on the sidechains can't be issued unless Bitcoin

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is locked in the hashrate escrow for each sidechain.

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what Bitcoin does, Drivechain does rather is it maintains the

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quantity of Bitcoin but increases the qualities that a Bitcoin can have.

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That's one way of talking about it.

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There was a great tweet recently from

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Dr. Adam Back of Blockstream where he said, this great tweet,

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said, let me find the tweet.

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Let's see, here's one of them.

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He said, we're probably going to need sidechains, drivechains, where we're going, to

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onboard the next billion users soon.

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That's a great one.

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but the tweet I'm looking for,

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I'll find it right now.

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Here it is.

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He wrote, maximalist, altcoin senior rich

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critic. There it is.

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what does he mean by that?

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Innovation maximalist, altcoin senior ridge critic.

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He means that Drivechain enables, this is my interpretation of what he's saying in that

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thread,

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Drivechain enables Bitcoin to have these new qualities on its sidechains in a peer -to

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-peer

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manner but there is no issuance of Bitcoin to do that.

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So right now if you want to make an interesting new protocol and you want it be peer -to

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-peer completely you would have to launch an altcoin or build on Ethereum or something

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else. You can't build on Bitcoin in a peer -to -peer manner and

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a two -way pegged sidechain.

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That's important because there technically are peer -to -peer, one -way pegged space

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chains, spook chains, that kind of thing.

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But there isn't the maintenance of the unit of account in a two -way pegged manner

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unless we have Drivechain.

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I think what Adam Back is talking about there is to have a full sidechain.

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In the truest sense, need a two -way pegged, peer -to -peer peg.

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And, yeah, -way peg, that's peer -to -peer.

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That is what he's talking about, I believe.

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So that's what Drivechain enables.

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It avoids the altcoin senior rich, which is the money

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money issuance, but it enables the innovation.

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to make Bitcoin as varied as possible, we want that multitude of sidechains built on

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top, one for privacy, one for hive mind, peer to peer oracle network, one

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for bit names, one for bit assets, one for, you know,

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know, big block Bitcoin, you know, bring that whole big blocker community back

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to Bitcoin and have them do it all on a sidechain or two, you know, one for Bitcoin

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Cash, one for BSV, let them compete, see which one does better.

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But critically, what they're competing therefore on is not

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demand for a speculative token distinct from Bitcoin.

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They would be using synthetic Bitcoin, and the only difference between the protocols as

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sidechains on Bitcoin would be the software.

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So we would be able to see exactly which software is best because the users would flow

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to that

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that one? So how large should the blocks be?

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Well, we can open a bunch of different drivechains with different sized block sizes,

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and then we'll see which one provides users with the most attractive trade -offs in

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terms of lower decentralization, larger blocks, lower fees,

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Drivechain is capitalistic.

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allows developers to compete, rather than Bitcoin community having to

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together every five years and deliberate and somehow come up with the right solution

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for everything, all on one chain.

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It's

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we let experimentation and innovation have a lower barrier by enabling it in a

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partitioned manner on sidechain.

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With all that said, I welcome anyone to come on up to the stage,

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tell me why I'm wrong,

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talk about your thoughts and feelings

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feelings on Drivechain today.

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All are welcome to raise your hand and speak your mind.

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Well, not seeing anyone comment.

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we'll go through

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We've got the Adam Back tweet which is Innovation Maximalist Altcoin Senior Ridge

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Critic. We also have a great tweet from Fiatjaf.

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He writes, just a few days ago, Drivechains enable a new kind of escrow that is

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strictly superior

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to 11 of 15 multi -sigs.

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One that is simple, decentralized, fluid, censorship resistant, and easy to set up.

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Instead of voting with keys, you vote with hashrate.

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So that's a great statement by Fiatjaf.

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I

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I agree with him.

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I think that if Drivechain is adopted, there will be no more substantial use

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of federated sidechains.

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Instead, the word sidechain will refer to a drivechain,

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and federated multisigs will

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be categorically understood to be custodial Bitcoin.

248
00:16:54,083 --> 00:16:58,803
the opponents of Drivechain tend to say, well,

249
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a two -way peg controlled by the miners is akin to custodial Bitcoin.

250
00:17:05,323 --> 00:17:06,753
And they also say, you

251
00:17:06,753 --> 00:17:08,293
you know, don't know who the miners are.

252
00:17:08,533 --> 00:17:13,353
So it's worse, because at least in a federation, you might know who those 15 people

253
00:17:13,353 --> 00:17:15,473
are. feel this is cope.

254
00:17:16,273 --> 00:17:17,133
This is cope.

255
00:17:17,373 --> 00:17:23,093
This is people making arguments that I wonder if they really believe them.

256
00:17:23,633 --> 00:17:25,733
Because how can a person possibly

257
00:17:25,844 --> 00:17:31,404
be a Bitcoiner and at the same time have a distrust for miners that's so

258
00:17:31,404 --> 00:17:37,364
strong that they doubt the whole security model of mining and the economic incentives

259
00:17:37,364 --> 00:17:38,584
of the miners?

260
00:17:38,784 --> 00:17:40,764
I mean that's a fundamental part of Bitcoin.

261
00:17:41,024 --> 00:17:44,935
Since the very beginning of Bitcoin it has been made

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very clear by Satoshi at the beginning of the white paper that transaction

263
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finality depends on the economic balance of miner incentives

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opposed to hostile mining.

265
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And if the majority of miners were behave in

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a malfeasant manner, then as Satoshi has always said, there would be instability.

267
00:18:10,746 --> 00:18:15,946
And what we've always had is a majority of miners behaving not in a malfeasant manner,

268
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but instead the miners in Bitcoin, despite being

269
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potentially anonymous,

270
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-interested,

271
00:18:26,757 --> 00:18:29,077
mutually distrusting,

272
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overcome the

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challenges of Byzantine fault tolerance and civil resistance.

274
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they overcome the crypto

275
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cryptoeconomic complexities and challenges.

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And what happens is an emergent order of miners behaving in a way that is both

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profitable for themselves and in their best interests, and at the same

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time productive and mutually beneficial for the other participants in the network.

279
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So that is what incentive compatibility refers to.

280
00:19:05,728 --> 00:19:11,068
when we're speaking about algorithm design, speak about incentive compatibility.

281
00:19:14,628 --> 00:19:17,908
So when people say, well, you know, we shouldn't trust the miners with the sidechains,

282
00:19:18,208 --> 00:19:19,888
say let the consumer choose.

283
00:19:20,808 --> 00:19:24,468
Let consumers choose, because drivechain doesn't mean you can't do multi -sig anymore.

284
00:19:24,628 --> 00:19:30,468
It just means that people have the option to use a peer -to -peer sidechain

285
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peg instead of a federated one.

286
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If anyone would like to come up and ask a

287
00:19:38,097 --> 00:19:39,657
question, I would love that.

288
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I will mention also that there are a bunch of resources that are great places to go

289
00:19:45,617 --> 00:19:48,477
for Drivechain information.

290
00:19:48,697 --> 00:19:54,097
can go to drivechain.info and you can also go to

291
00:19:54,097 --> 00:19:57,157
fiatjof.com forward slash drivechain.

292
00:19:59,506 --> 00:20:01,626
So let's make sure that's the right.

293
00:20:03,706 --> 00:20:04,746
Well, that's not it.

294
00:20:04,866 --> 00:20:09,266
It's fiatjof.com and then you click on Bitcoin and then you click on Drivechain.

295
00:20:12,186 --> 00:20:16,966
So, ah, the website is fiatjof.com forward slash drivechain.html.

296
00:20:17,426 --> 00:20:17,786
I guess the

297
00:20:17,875 --> 00:20:23,195
easiest way to send you there is just www.fiatjaf

298
00:20:23,195 --> 00:20:26,395
.com. So again it's www

299
00:20:26,395 --> 00:20:31,855
.fiatjaf.com

300
00:20:31,855 --> 00:20:34,995
and then click on Bitcoin and then click on Drivechain.

301
00:20:34,995 --> 00:20:37,595
This is the website of Fiatjaf,

302
00:20:37,844 --> 00:20:43,744
the creator of Noster, a fantastically popular program

303
00:20:43,744 --> 00:20:48,324
among Bitcoiners and others for communicating and computing.

304
00:20:50,584 --> 00:20:56,584
So he is an example of a builder who is focused on Bitcoin, among other things, and

305
00:20:56,584 --> 00:20:57,652
likes Drivechain

306
00:20:57,852 --> 00:21:03,092
a lot. So that's why I like to reference him, along with Dr.

307
00:21:03,292 --> 00:21:08,432
Back of Blockstream, to excellent builders within the Bitcoin space.

308
00:21:09,812 --> 00:21:15,592
And there are many other people who like Bitcoin too, of almost as great renown.

309
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Anyone

310
00:21:17,541 --> 00:21:21,041
in the audience who'd like to come up and ask a question or make a comment, you're

311
00:21:21,041 --> 00:21:23,541
welcome to. click raise your hand in the Twitter space.

312
00:21:24,141 --> 00:21:27,441
This is Drivechain Twitter Spaces hosted by LayerTwo Labs.

313
00:21:28,121 --> 00:21:28,761
I am Henry.

314
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I work for LayerTwo Labs.

315
00:21:30,761 --> 00:21:35,781
We have been doing these Twitter spaces every Monday and Thursday for a month or two

316
00:21:35,781 --> 00:21:36,661
now, and

317
00:21:37,430 --> 00:21:39,230
to keep on doing it.

318
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every Monday and Thursday we're up here on Twitter.

319
00:21:42,750 --> 00:21:48,510
Feel free to follow this account, LayerTwo Labs, to get more

320
00:21:48,510 --> 00:21:52,750
notices about these Twitter spaces and listen to them in the future.

321
00:21:57,559 --> 00:22:00,059
So anyone in the audience should come on up.

322
00:22:00,219 --> 00:22:01,199
There's a bunch of you down there.

323
00:22:01,319 --> 00:22:01,879
Don't be shy.

324
00:22:02,279 --> 00:22:06,579
Raise your hand and talk about what Drivechain means to you.

325
00:22:07,179 --> 00:22:08,739
Oh great, we have a question.

326
00:22:10,159 --> 00:22:10,779
Hello, Carl.

327
00:22:14,539 --> 00:22:15,939
Welcome to the stage, Carl.

328
00:22:16,179 --> 00:22:16,799
Thanks for joining.

329
00:22:19,728 --> 00:22:21,188
Yeah, no problem.

330
00:22:21,768 --> 00:22:26,448
thanks for sharing and obviously still really, you know, new to all this just trying to

331
00:22:26,448 --> 00:22:27,948
pick up a few tidbits here and there.

332
00:22:28,548 --> 00:22:34,268
if, um, if drivechains, you know, if it if it's something that can be

333
00:22:34,268 --> 00:22:40,168
used, you know, without affecting the base layer at all, what do you think the like

334
00:22:40,168 --> 00:22:44,748
the pushback is or the holdup is for like, more people to experiment with this and like

335
00:22:44,748 --> 00:22:50,508
who who do you need to convince to get this to become like more more commonplace and

336
00:22:50,508 --> 00:22:53,188
more, I guess, well, well tested.

337
00:22:56,208 --> 00:23:03,208
Those are great questions. The.

338
00:23:04,208 --> 00:23:16,208
I just. I just muted you while I answer and then please take yourself off mute and comment more whenever you'd like to while I'm while I'm talking or after I'm done.

339
00:23:16,208 --> 00:23:25,208
Thank you for your question. It's a great question. The objections to drive. So, as I understand from your question, you're interested in hearing about what are the objections to drivechain.

340
00:23:25,208 --> 00:23:39,208
And then if those objections are unpopular and everyone likes drivechain, then how do we proceed forward? Or who are the people who are most important in determining whether the community goes forward with this idea?

341
00:23:40,208 --> 00:23:57,208
So. Drivechain has been around for about seven years and during those seven years, it has become more formalized in terms of the code being ready and the idea moving from a concept into an actual like program that can be merged into Bitcoin.

342
00:23:57,208 --> 00:24:16,208
So we are somewhere along the road from. It being at the very beginning, just the concept, you know, just a blog post or two to it now being somewhat close, maybe like, you know, like let's say if the Bitcoin community were fully interested in doing drivechain as soon as possible starting today.

343
00:24:17,208 --> 00:24:40,208
If there was total unanimity and support for it, then we could probably have it activated on Bitcoin in maybe 12 months from now at the earliest. That's my personal understanding. And I'd welcome others to correct me if they have a different view. But the drivechain code would need to be combed over very carefully, would have to be updated to the latest version of everything.

344
00:24:40,208 --> 00:25:04,208
And then it could be if you could just stay on mute. That way there's no like background noise. That'd be great. The. So there's some work to be done that's technical in terms of like combing over the details, not combing over the sense of like going through and optimizing and perfecting, dotting all the I's, crossing all the T's, rebasing the code so it matches the latest version and then they can merge it through.

345
00:25:05,208 --> 00:25:24,208
So there are people who are maintainers of Bitcoin Core. There are five or four of them. I mean, there are six and then one recently resigned. You know, it's a great set of people who maintain the code. Now, they're not in control, but they do of the code in every sense. But they are maintaining it.

346
00:25:24,208 --> 00:25:40,208
So when the community appears to have strong consensus where lots of people like an overwhelming majority support something, then these maintainers, as I understand, can can can merge the code that's ready to be merged. And that's part of the process.

347
00:25:40,208 --> 00:26:00,208
And then in terms of your other question, where how do we like what are the objections? So the two leading objections to drivechain, I think, are both misunderstandings of its design. They're both economic in nature, these objections. So they're not about the code. These objections have to do with the crypto economic design of drivechain.

348
00:26:00,208 --> 00:26:16,208
One objection, probably the more popular one, and one that's, I think, simpler is and one that's also clearly wrong, in my in my opinion, is the notion that the the Bitcoin miners would steal the Bitcoin that's in the hash rate escrow.

349
00:26:16,208 --> 00:26:34,208
So this objection has a view that if drivechain is adopted, then the drivechains will never accrue much value. Because if they were to have some Bitcoin in these hash rate escrows, then the Bitcoin miners would take the Bitcoin out of the hash rate escrow for themselves.

350
00:26:34,208 --> 00:26:58,208
This objection is wrong because it is in the Bitcoin miners economic best interests. It's in their profit motive interest to not destroy the drivechain by doing that, but instead to enable the drivechain to grow very large, so that there is a permanent flow of transaction fees from the drivechain because the drivechains are merged mind.

351
00:26:59,208 --> 00:27:14,208
So all the transaction fees on the drivechain are paid almost 100% to the Bitcoin miners on layer one, and they're paid in Bitcoin for that with blind merge mining. So the miners aren't going to destroy the drivechains, they're going to do everything they can to encourage their use.

352
00:27:15,208 --> 00:27:33,208
It's kind of like if you had a restaurant, and some skeptics said, well, you know, no one's going to come to your restaurant because you might rob them. Well, of course, restaurant owners almost never rob their customers. Instead, they serve them food and hope that the customers come back again and again forever.

353
00:27:34,208 --> 00:27:45,208
So there's that profit motive that encourages a peaceful and collaborative, productive, mutually beneficial relationship rather than a zero sum exploitative relationship.

354
00:27:46,208 --> 00:28:02,208
So that's the first objection to drivechain, this objection, which is wrong. People thinking that the miners will steal from the hash rate escrow, such a theft would take months to occur. And the instant it began, it would be publicly visible on the blockchain that it is occurring.

355
00:28:02,208 --> 00:28:20,208
And it would require over half of all of Bitcoin's hash rate for it to occur. So the attacker would have to be controlling the majority of Bitcoin's hash rate, which is extremely expensive. And then they would have to act in a malfeasant manner.

356
00:28:21,208 --> 00:28:36,208
And this would, if they were to carry that theft out, harm Bitcoin generally. So it would lower the value of Bitcoin, I think, because it would show that the drivechain design doesn't work if that were to occur like that.

357
00:28:37,208 --> 00:28:49,208
So the miners wouldn't get the fees from the drivechains, because then drivechains would have a weak economic model, a weak security model. So I just think in every way, the miners are incentivized to do the opposite.

358
00:28:49,208 --> 00:29:01,208
They're incentivized to strengthen the drivechain to properly behave and to foster the use of the drivechains for their fees. And the miners want to make Bitcoin more valuable, because that makes the mining machines more valuable.

359
00:29:02,208 --> 00:29:13,208
If a miner has like a billion dollars invested in Bitcoin mining machines, then he wants or she wants the mining machines to be more valuable by Bitcoin being more valuable. So overall, the miners have an incentive to make it all work.

360
00:29:14,208 --> 00:29:22,208
And then to answer your question, the second objection to drivechain is incompatible with the first objection, the first one being about the theft of the Bitcoin.

361
00:29:23,208 --> 00:29:39,208
The second objection is that the miners will unduly centralize because of merged mining being present in a greater magnitude on Bitcoin if the drivechains become very successful.

362
00:29:40,208 --> 00:29:48,208
So this objection says not that the drivechains will be stolen from, but rather that they'll grow extremely large and that drivechain will be very successful.

363
00:29:49,208 --> 00:29:54,208
But then that will cause more centralization in the mining industry on Bitcoin.

364
00:29:55,208 --> 00:30:18,208
And this is a misunderstanding of how Bitcoin mining works, because Bitcoin miners have all sorts of ways of profiting, such as having agreements with power companies, using cheap electricity, getting better machines, and using profitable mining software, such as merged mining software, and doing merged mining with or without the nodes.

365
00:30:18,208 --> 00:30:20,208
All of that is just another form of profit.

366
00:30:21,208 --> 00:30:29,208
So people who don't like merged mining say that drivechain will encourage more and will encourage more merged mining.

367
00:30:30,208 --> 00:30:39,208
And that is the second objection to drivechain, this notion that it's bad because it has to do with merged mining and it would encourage more merged mining.

368
00:30:40,208 --> 00:30:43,208
But of course, merged mining is simply another way of profiting for miners.

369
00:30:44,208 --> 00:30:53,208
So the people who don't like merged mining are arbitrarily prejudiced against software-based profitable activity for miners.

370
00:30:54,208 --> 00:30:56,208
But there's no rational basis for that prejudice.

371
00:30:57,208 --> 00:31:11,208
There's no good reason to think that software as a means of profit for miners is bad, while, for example, grid balancing agreements between miners and energy producers is good.

372
00:31:12,208 --> 00:31:26,208
Or, similarly, if one doesn't like profitable software for miners, but does like miners getting better ASICs, there's no rational basis for that prejudice against the software.

373
00:31:27,208 --> 00:31:31,208
So that is the second objection to drivechain.

374
00:31:32,208 --> 00:31:37,208
It is an irrational and arbitrary prejudice against profitable software for miners.

375
00:31:38,208 --> 00:31:42,208
So, yeah, Carl, thanks for those questions. What's your follow-up?

376
00:31:44,208 --> 00:31:46,208
No, that was very thorough and good.

377
00:31:47,208 --> 00:31:56,208
So basically, it would have to be activated almost like SegWit, kind of, like reach the same level of consensus would be kind of what triggers it.

378
00:31:57,208 --> 00:31:58,208
Am I correct there?

379
00:32:00,208 --> 00:32:01,208
I think so.

380
00:32:02,208 --> 00:32:08,208
Okay. And then last question, and I'm pretty sure I know, but just wanted to clarify.

381
00:32:09,208 --> 00:32:22,208
So even for those people that were worried that the miners would steal their funds, the only funds at risk would be the ones that were voluntarily placed in this escrow in the first place, correct?

382
00:32:23,208 --> 00:32:24,208
Yeah, yeah.

383
00:32:25,208 --> 00:32:34,208
If you don't send your Bitcoin into the hash rate escrow, then you are not at all subject to the security model of the hash rate escrow.

384
00:32:35,208 --> 00:32:45,208
And it's really no different than, like, if you send your Bitcoin to Coinbase and someone else doesn't, that other person has nothing to do with the Coinbase security model.

385
00:32:46,208 --> 00:32:53,208
So the best thing for you is to have the option to do whatever you want with your Bitcoin.

386
00:32:54,208 --> 00:33:06,208
So when you have more options, you're better off because it should be up to you to subjectively determine, in your opinion, which of the options you have is the one you want to take.

387
00:33:07,208 --> 00:33:09,208
You don't want to have other people make decisions for you.

388
00:33:10,208 --> 00:33:21,208
So the best thing for Bitcoiners is to be able to try out using the drivechain design if they want to.

389
00:33:22,208 --> 00:33:33,208
And I think there's a lot of indications that the drivechains, if they're enabled on Bitcoin, will in the long run become an enormous part of the Bitcoin ecosystem.

390
00:33:33,208 --> 00:33:37,208
And that a lot of the value of Bitcoin will be in the hash rate escrow.

391
00:33:38,208 --> 00:33:52,208
Maybe half or more of all Bitcoin in the long run will be locked in these hash rate escrows as the users want to use the sidechains because their fees will be lower.

392
00:33:53,208 --> 00:34:04,208
And the software on the sidechain will be varied and interesting and valuable in comparison to Bitcoin Layer 1, which would become a long term store of value.

393
00:34:05,208 --> 00:34:11,208
But most people don't want to just keep all their money in Layer 1 Bitcoin.

394
00:34:12,208 --> 00:34:20,208
They want to have some of their money in a design that is more lower fee or more private or that has other features.

395
00:34:21,208 --> 00:34:24,208
So just like you don't have just one form of money right now.

396
00:34:25,208 --> 00:34:35,208
You have probably paper money and money in a bank account and also physical money and some gold or maybe you also have some real estate.

397
00:34:36,208 --> 00:34:39,208
All different kinds of ways of holding value for different reasons.

398
00:34:39,208 --> 00:34:40,208
And.

399
00:34:43,072 --> 00:35:13,072
Another interesting way of looking at this is that even if the drivechains do not see that much economic utilization, like if they don't have that much value, like let's say drivechains adopted and 10 years later, only 1% of Bitcoin's value is in drivechains, even if that occurs, it is possible that drivechain will have materially benefited Bitcoin because no longer will altcoin founders be able to say after

400
00:35:13,072 --> 00:35:19,351
drivechains adopted, no longer will those altcoin founders be able to say that it's impossible or difficult to build on Bitcoin.

401
00:35:19,871 --> 00:35:24,671
So Bitcoin gains a narrative when drivechain is adopted.

402
00:35:24,752 --> 00:35:38,031
And that narrative is that it is possible to build a peer to peer protocol on Bitcoin without using a federation, instead using a peer to peer design where the miners control the hashrate escrow.

403
00:35:38,392 --> 00:35:49,711
So Bitcoin becomes more interesting and has stronger narratives when drivechain is adopted, even if the economic uptake of the drivechains themselves is not monumental.

404
00:35:49,711 --> 00:35:51,031
But I think it will be huge.

405
00:35:51,232 --> 00:35:52,512
I think it'll be so large.

406
00:35:52,792 --> 00:35:59,631
And I think that in the distant future, if drivechains adopted 15 years later, I think the majority of.

407
00:36:00,911 --> 00:36:06,351
Of the miner income might be from the transaction fees on the drivechains.

408
00:36:07,351 --> 00:36:25,472
Because if you have, let's say, 10 different sidechains, each with a large community of users all doing transactions and all of those transaction fees are paid are brought down to the layer one miners, then that ecosystem is very powerful and the layer one security is very strong.

409
00:36:25,472 --> 00:36:55,432
So that's the amazing like synergistic synergy of the drivechain design is that a multitude of sidechains all are funneling fees down to layer one, making layer one extremely powerful and that would completely solve the security budget, potentially, you know, as the coinbase is halved every four years, it's great to see the fees going up and currently they're not going up very much right now.

410
00:36:55,751 --> 00:37:01,952
It costs less than two dollars, I believe, to send a layer one Bitcoin transaction right now.

411
00:37:02,271 --> 00:37:11,512
The daily value paid to Bitcoin miners on chain from transaction fees, I think, is under half a million dollars a day.

412
00:37:11,512 --> 00:37:34,512
And if things remain that way for a long time, then we would have, you know, one or two more halvings, as we do every four years, and then the coinbase will be lower and unless Bitcoin, you know, is mooning, there will begin to be a larger chorus of people calling for inflation on Bitcoin.

413
00:37:35,512 --> 00:37:52,512
And it's so disappointing because, you know, one of Bitcoin's strongest narratives and it's most compelling, one of its most compelling value propositions is that it is not inflationary, unlike fiat money, which, you know, almost without exception has that inflation problem.

414
00:37:52,512 --> 00:37:54,512
So if not, without exception.

415
00:37:56,512 --> 00:38:00,512
So, yeah, I'm not sure Bitcoin will be like a cool, exciting place to be if there's inflation.

416
00:38:01,512 --> 00:38:11,512
And I think that, like, it's so disappointing that the people who are in favor of inflation, they tend to think that drivechain is not a good idea.

417
00:38:11,512 --> 00:38:21,512
I think that's really the most interesting thing to me is how is it possible that Bitcoiners, some of them, and there's just a few, I think they're very smart people.

418
00:38:21,512 --> 00:38:38,512
I think they're very smart people, but I'm truly puzzled as to why it is that any notable Bitcoiner would prefer to advocate for inflation for Bitcoin rather than advocate for greater merged mining.

419
00:38:39,512 --> 00:38:45,512
Because merged mining boosts the transaction fee revenue instead of messing with the monetary policy.

420
00:38:46,512 --> 00:38:50,512
The monetary policy of Bitcoin is monumentally important as a narrative.

421
00:38:51,512 --> 00:38:59,512
There's a world of difference between never being more than 21 million and some rate of increase above 21 million.

422
00:39:00,512 --> 00:39:01,512
There's a world of difference there.

423
00:39:02,512 --> 00:39:03,512
So I'm just puzzled.

424
00:39:04,512 --> 00:39:08,512
I feel like if we could simply convince, like you asked me, who do we have to convince?

425
00:39:09,512 --> 00:39:21,512
One way of going forward in terms of advocacy is if we could simply convince the advocates for inflation to stop advocating for that and instead advocate for greater merged mining.

426
00:39:22,512 --> 00:39:31,512
In other words, build more merged mine protocols on Bitcoin, make them more attractive and stronger instead of having them be as RSK does.

427
00:39:31,512 --> 00:39:38,512
RSK is the largest merged mine protocol for Bitcoin in terms of transaction fee revenue.

428
00:39:39,512 --> 00:39:53,512
I haven't checked lately exactly how much free revenue it is, but Bitcoin miners have, over the years that RSK has existed, they've received a substantial amount of money from the transaction fees from RSK.

429
00:39:54,512 --> 00:39:58,512
And it would be great to see that revenue grow a lot.

430
00:39:58,512 --> 00:40:08,512
So if they were using a peer-to-peer connection to that protocol, then that would be like a drivechain design.

431
00:40:09,512 --> 00:40:12,512
And the RSK community actually wants to migrate to a drivechain.

432
00:40:13,512 --> 00:40:14,512
It's in their white paper.

433
00:40:15,512 --> 00:40:20,512
Why don't you jump in with your thoughts, Carl, on that, on anything?

434
00:40:21,512 --> 00:40:24,512
No, I thought that was really great.

435
00:40:25,512 --> 00:40:29,512
Yeah, those are just a few questions I had because it doesn't really make sense to me.

436
00:40:30,512 --> 00:40:32,512
I know I get how it's really anything with Bitcoin.

437
00:40:33,512 --> 00:40:38,512
It's very difficult to get consensus and adopt new ideas.

438
00:40:39,512 --> 00:40:48,512
But yeah, just as I've learned a little bit more about drivechains, just kind of curious as to why it's taken so long and what people's concerns are.

439
00:40:48,512 --> 00:40:53,512
Because it's not something that, at least in my circles, gets talked about a whole ton.

440
00:40:54,512 --> 00:40:55,512
But it sounds really interesting.

441
00:40:56,512 --> 00:41:04,512
I love the idea of Bitcoin being able to kind of, I don't know, I guess like maybe steal features, if you would, of different altcoins and things like that.

442
00:41:05,512 --> 00:41:15,512
I remember early on when I talked to people about Bitcoin, they'd bring up the comment like, well, what's stopping another coin from having a better protocol for this reason or that reason?

443
00:41:16,512 --> 00:41:17,512
And I was like, well, it's programmable money.

444
00:41:18,512 --> 00:41:21,512
So Bitcoin could always just steal it if they needed to.

445
00:41:22,512 --> 00:41:37,512
Yeah, it just sounds like, from what I know, and granted, I'm not a very technical person, drivechain sounds like an elegant solution to that where it's a lot easier to adopt whatever those features may be for whomever feels that they're beneficial.

446
00:41:38,512 --> 00:41:50,512
As opposed to trying to convince a whole community to, you know, make a change to a protocol for every little thing that Bitcoin might want to, you know, kind of take from another coin.

447
00:41:53,512 --> 00:41:54,512
Yeah, well said.

448
00:41:54,512 --> 00:42:03,512
Of course, you know, the notion of stealing software is one way of talking about it.

449
00:42:04,512 --> 00:42:08,512
I feel that copying the protocols makes a lot of sense in terms of how to talk about these things.

450
00:42:09,512 --> 00:42:16,512
I know that's what you probably meant and or would be sympathetic to that, you know, less exploitative term.

451
00:42:17,512 --> 00:42:22,512
The copying of protocols is perfectly fine in the open source realm.

452
00:42:22,512 --> 00:42:41,512
So yeah, if there's like a, let's say a privacy software out there using ring signatures or other things, and Bitcoin adopts drivechain architecture, then that software could be copied or cloned into a drivechain with little or no changes made to it.

453
00:42:42,512 --> 00:43:03,512
And then there would be that software on top of Bitcoin available for Bitcoiners and they would be able to hold a synthetic Bitcoin in the drivechain, in that sidechain and benefit from that privacy technology while maintaining exposure to Bitcoin's value rather than holding an altcoin.

454
00:43:04,512 --> 00:43:15,512
And, you know, perhaps getting the privacy technology on the altcoin, but suffering from the altcoins exchange rate fluctuations negatively against Bitcoin's value.

455
00:43:16,512 --> 00:43:29,512
So, yeah, that's really the drivechain design, which you maintain exposure to Bitcoin's value while getting the software that would have been on altcoin only.

456
00:43:30,512 --> 00:43:31,512
Now it's on a drivechain as well.

457
00:43:31,512 --> 00:43:47,512
So in the best possible scenario, in the most optimistic drivechain vision, what we would see in the long run after a drivechain is adopted is that every valuable software is built on Bitcoin and there is no altcoin.

458
00:43:48,512 --> 00:43:54,512
And that would involve multiple communities migrating to drivechains once drivechains are available.

459
00:43:55,512 --> 00:44:02,512
So the privacy altcoin community, they would see, you know, the drivechain version and they would see how large it is.

460
00:44:03,512 --> 00:44:19,512
Like, for example, if Bitcoin has a drivechain that offers privacy tech and if 1% of Bitcoiners send their Bitcoin into that sidechain, into that drivechain, then that would be a $4 billion drivechain by market cap.

461
00:44:20,512 --> 00:44:35,512
And if we can assume hypothetically that there would be a proportionally large transaction fee volume, then the security on that sidechain would be greater and the market cap would be greater than any altcoin for privacy.

462
00:44:36,512 --> 00:44:41,512
Like Monero and Zcash, I have in mind, their market caps are not $4 billion.

463
00:44:42,512 --> 00:44:49,512
So the market cap of this drivechain is greater than those, hypothetically, and its security is stronger.

464
00:44:50,512 --> 00:44:59,512
So then the users on those altcoins would simply sell their altcoin and buy Bitcoin to use the drivechain that offers this privacy.

465
00:45:00,512 --> 00:45:14,512
Because presumably these privacy altcoin holders are very interested in the technology of their altcoin, not in the speculative potential of the altcoin appreciating above Bitcoin's rate of appreciation.

466
00:45:15,512 --> 00:45:30,512
So I think that these communities that have genuine usage, rather than merely being like a Ponzinomics operation, those communities that have genuine use would migrate to drivechain.

467
00:45:31,512 --> 00:45:50,512
So, for example, Zcash and Monero, those communities might migrate to drivechain, but something like Hexcoin or something like Dogecoin probably wouldn't, because those are more like Ponzinomic type coins.

468
00:45:51,512 --> 00:45:53,512
So yeah, the ones with genuine use.

469
00:45:53,512 --> 00:45:58,512
So another genuine use type technology would be the big block Bitcoiners.

470
00:45:58,512 --> 00:46:07,512
So they genuinely believe, and they're right, that a large block protocol is a legitimate technology.

471
00:46:08,512 --> 00:46:19,512
Their error, I think, is that they think that the large block technology should be the layer one, or some of them feel that there shouldn't be any layers.

472
00:46:19,512 --> 00:46:22,512
There should be just a monolithic blockchain like Solana.

473
00:46:23,512 --> 00:46:25,512
So that's an error.

474
00:46:25,512 --> 00:46:27,512
I think money should be layered.

475
00:46:27,512 --> 00:46:30,512
I think this is an idea that appeals to Bitcoiners a lot.

476
00:46:30,512 --> 00:46:36,512
I think that's one of the strengths of drivechain is that it embraces the layered money notion.

477
00:46:36,512 --> 00:46:45,512
I think there's even a popular book on Bitcoin called Layered Money by one of the investor, you know, investment professionals who talks about Bitcoin.

478
00:46:45,512 --> 00:47:03,512
So I think the big blockers, their rightful home is as a sidechain on Bitcoin, because large blocks mean lower decentralization, which means it's harder for an ordinary person to afford to have a full node to validate.

479
00:47:03,512 --> 00:47:09,512
So the proper place for that is in an opt-in arrangement where it's a sidechain.

480
00:47:09,512 --> 00:47:18,512
So instead of everyone having to use it, it's something people can opt into for smaller value transactions like buying a coffee.

481
00:47:24,512 --> 00:47:29,512
So I think we'd see the privacy community come over to drivechain and also the big block.

482
00:47:31,512 --> 00:47:35,512
The big block Bitcoin community come back to Bitcoin for drivechain.

483
00:47:36,512 --> 00:47:44,512
And then also the largest out there is the smart contracting users and developers on Ethereum.

484
00:47:44,512 --> 00:47:55,512
So winning them over would also be part of the drivechain vision, bringing them all back to Bitcoin, bringing all that value to Bitcoin and all those transaction fees.

485
00:47:55,512 --> 00:48:00,512
There's enormously high transaction fees over to Bitcoin miners.

486
00:48:01,512 --> 00:48:03,512
So all of that could be built on Bitcoin.

487
00:48:05,512 --> 00:48:09,512
And in the best possible scenario, all of that would migrate to Bitcoin.

488
00:48:19,512 --> 00:48:21,512
Do you have any more questions or thoughts to share?

489
00:48:26,512 --> 00:48:27,512
No, thank you so much.

490
00:48:30,512 --> 00:48:33,512
I'm curious if you want to share, how did you discover drivechain?

491
00:48:33,512 --> 00:48:36,512
What was the thing that got you into it at first?

492
00:48:41,512 --> 00:48:44,512
Paul was at our meetup a few weeks ago, actually.

493
00:48:47,512 --> 00:48:49,512
I've just kind of heard the term thrown around a little bit.

494
00:48:50,512 --> 00:48:54,512
When we were sitting there, he kind of gave me a brief little drivechains 101.

495
00:48:55,512 --> 00:48:59,512
I'm just interested in learning more about it basically as I had some time on my hands here.

496
00:49:01,512 --> 00:49:03,512
That's cool.

497
00:49:04,512 --> 00:49:07,512
Yeah, I've never met Paul in person, but it's cool that you saw him at a meetup.

498
00:49:07,512 --> 00:49:10,512
And he is my boss.

499
00:49:10,512 --> 00:49:12,512
So I think it's cool that you met him.

500
00:49:12,512 --> 00:49:14,512
And I hope you had a great time with that meetup.

501
00:49:15,512 --> 00:49:18,512
Bitcoin meetups are an awesome place to learn and discuss drivechain.

502
00:49:18,512 --> 00:49:26,512
A lot of the people who have been around in Bitcoin for a long time are very informed about drivechain and are excited about it.

503
00:49:27,512 --> 00:49:33,512
My Twitter feed is full of people who are excited about it.

504
00:49:33,512 --> 00:49:37,512
And there are 700 people in the drivechain talk telegram group.

505
00:49:37,512 --> 00:49:42,512
Over 700 who are interested in drivechain and talking about it.

506
00:49:42,512 --> 00:49:44,512
So it's a growing movement.

507
00:49:44,512 --> 00:49:47,512
And it's cool that you go to Bitcoin meetups.

508
00:49:50,512 --> 00:49:54,512
Hello, welcome to the stage, Body Airport Luggage Thief.

509
00:49:54,512 --> 00:49:55,512
Hey, hey.

510
00:49:55,512 --> 00:49:57,512
What's your question or comment?

511
00:49:57,512 --> 00:49:59,512
Hey, I've listened to a couple of your spaces.

512
00:50:01,512 --> 00:50:22,512
I was wondering if you could go over quickly what the mechanism would be from keeping the drivechain protocol from being bloated from too many sidechains or too many drivechains joining the protocol.

513
00:50:22,512 --> 00:50:23,512
You know what I mean?

514
00:50:23,512 --> 00:50:27,512
You went over it in a different space, but I don't know.

515
00:50:27,512 --> 00:50:30,512
I'm kind of the left side of the bell curve moron.

516
00:50:30,512 --> 00:50:35,512
So I was just wondering if you could maybe touch on that again.

517
00:50:37,512 --> 00:50:38,512
That's great. A great question.

518
00:50:38,512 --> 00:50:41,512
I appreciate your question and the way you asked it.

519
00:50:41,512 --> 00:50:43,512
And I'm glad to have you here.

520
00:50:44,512 --> 00:50:49,512
Your question is very good because you're interested in the notion of bloat.

521
00:50:50,512 --> 00:50:53,512
And that's a hot topic right now with ordinals.

522
00:50:53,512 --> 00:50:58,512
And people are concerned about, you know, how does a blockchain become bloated?

523
00:50:58,512 --> 00:51:07,512
What does it mean for there to be bloat or, you know, dead weight or and who is who is the burdened party when there is bloat?

524
00:51:08,512 --> 00:51:11,512
So currently we're seeing with ordinals.

525
00:51:11,512 --> 00:51:14,512
And this is kind of a tangent from your question, but I'll answer your question.

526
00:51:15,512 --> 00:51:18,512
With ordinals, we're seeing people talk about bloat.

527
00:51:19,512 --> 00:51:31,512
And they're talking about it because what's happening is that the rate of data accrual to the Bitcoin blockchain nodes is growing more quickly than it used to.

528
00:51:31,512 --> 00:51:38,512
It used to be a few years ago that every block, every 10 minutes approximately, was, you know, a megabyte.

529
00:51:38,512 --> 00:51:41,512
And then after a few years, it was two megabytes.

530
00:51:42,512 --> 00:51:44,512
And then it's jumping up now.

531
00:51:45,512 --> 00:51:47,511
Into like higher numbers.

532
00:51:47,511 --> 00:51:48,511
I looked at it yesterday.

533
00:51:48,511 --> 00:51:50,511
I don't want to misstate it.

534
00:51:50,511 --> 00:51:57,511
But in the last few weeks because of ordinals, you can see a spike in this.

535
00:51:57,511 --> 00:51:59,511
Let me try to find the chart just online so I can.

536
00:52:01,511 --> 00:52:04,511
So I can talk about it very accurately.

537
00:52:04,511 --> 00:52:10,511
I think I was looking at the one on blockchain.com, which people always tell me, you know, hey, it's not.

538
00:52:13,511 --> 00:52:15,511
It's run by Bitcoin Cash people or something.

539
00:52:15,511 --> 00:52:16,511
But.

540
00:52:17,511 --> 00:52:20,511
It's free and the data appears to be totally legitimate.

541
00:52:21,511 --> 00:52:24,511
So on this on this chart, they have like a block explorer.

542
00:52:25,511 --> 00:52:26,511
I'm bringing it up now.

543
00:52:28,511 --> 00:52:30,511
I want to be able to talk about it precisely with the data.

544
00:52:35,511 --> 00:52:36,511
OK.

545
00:52:36,511 --> 00:52:37,511
OK.

546
00:52:41,511 --> 00:52:42,511
It's loading.

547
00:52:42,511 --> 00:53:01,511
Well, as that's loading, I'll say that basically what we're seeing with ordinals is a higher rate of of data, you know, because the blocks are larger on average because of these files being included in transactions that are, you know, utilizing or exploiting, depending on how you want to talk about it.

548
00:53:01,511 --> 00:53:02,511
The.

549
00:53:03,511 --> 00:53:05,511
You know, some of the developments in Bitcoin.

550
00:53:06,511 --> 00:53:14,511
So they're not paying a whole lot to the miners for those transactions relative to the size of the.

551
00:53:14,511 --> 00:53:17,511
Well, I don't want to make a controversial statement about it.

552
00:53:18,511 --> 00:53:20,511
Basically, there's this notion of bloat.

553
00:53:21,511 --> 00:53:26,511
And what it means is that if you want to run a full node, you're going to have to include this data or somehow prune it.

554
00:53:26,511 --> 00:53:29,511
And then there's a tradeoff involved in that, arguably.

555
00:53:29,511 --> 00:53:30,511
So.

556
00:53:31,511 --> 00:53:32,511
People don't like bloat.

557
00:53:33,511 --> 00:53:54,511
So I think that in a drivechain arrangement, what we would see is very high fees on layer one, which would migrate naturally the type of activity of ordinals to a drivechain that's intended to facilitate that kind of activity in a way that's efficient and most favorable for the users involved.

558
00:53:55,511 --> 00:53:59,511
Just like some people want to have like a restaurant that's vegetarian.

559
00:53:59,511 --> 00:54:01,511
Other people don't want to have a restaurant that's vegetarian.

560
00:54:02,511 --> 00:54:09,511
So there's and there ends up being like multiple restaurants and the appropriate people go to the appropriate one and everyone's happy.

561
00:54:09,511 --> 00:54:10,511
So.

562
00:54:11,511 --> 00:54:25,511
I think that on layer one Bitcoin, what we'd want to see are high fees and financial transactions and very low block size so that people can validate layer one inexpensively, maybe even on their phone.

563
00:54:25,511 --> 00:54:26,511
That would be ideal.

564
00:54:29,511 --> 00:54:30,511
So.

565
00:54:31,511 --> 00:54:33,511
Your could you remind me?

566
00:54:33,511 --> 00:54:34,511
You know, I apologize.

567
00:54:34,511 --> 00:54:36,511
It's been a long morning for me.

568
00:54:36,511 --> 00:54:38,511
Could you remind me what was the first part of your question?

569
00:54:41,245 --> 00:55:02,725
I think I was the the other question was like, so if side I'm not like ideological about any of this, like I thought the ordinals were kind of annoying, but I mean, I'm running a home miner, so I appreciate the extra little bit of extra fees.

570
00:55:02,725 --> 00:55:22,725
But the I'm not ideological about I'm just trying to like because there's big pushback from some of the Bitcoin pleb people. I consider myself a pleb about just like the you addressed it before about the.

571
00:55:22,725 --> 00:55:41,725
Oh, yes. The number of that's right. The number of drivechains. Yes, of course. So this is the way that's a great question. It's very common question on drivechain. So it's a good one. The the drivechain design right now is optimal because it allows for over 200 drivechains.

572
00:55:41,725 --> 00:56:00,725
And there have been some people who've written articles about how many different drivechains there would be. And as far as I know, not anyone has seriously proposed that there would be a shortfall of available slots for drivechains.

573
00:56:00,725 --> 00:56:21,725
In fact, the drivechain designers themselves feel that 200 might be way more than what are really actually needed and used. So we have a ton of available slots because there is only so many different valuable protocols out there that would need to be their own drivechain.

574
00:56:21,725 --> 00:56:50,724
Multiple activities could occur and would most profitably and efficiently occur on a single drivechain in some cases, like a smart contracting drivechain, like Ethereum, it could be its own drivechain. And all the stuff on Ethereum could be happening on a drivechain. And then there could be a separate protocol just for privacy, a separate protocol, a separate drivechain just for, you know, a BCH or BSV style, large block drivechain,

575
00:56:51,724 --> 00:57:18,724
which we call Thunder, kind of like lightning. So a Thunder drivechain would be a big block drivechain. And there'd be a privacy one too. That's that one called Zside, uses extremely advanced privacy technology from Zcash, where, you know, a transaction is concealed in terms of its sender, and its recipient and the amount involved. And it's like totally untraceable and very cypherpunk secure.

576
00:57:18,724 --> 00:57:33,724
And so there's been thoughts by the drivechain designers themselves. I mean, of course, these are the people who if anybody's going to have ideas about all the different kinds of drivechains that might be wanted, these are the people who would be like in favor of listing many of them, right?

577
00:57:33,724 --> 00:57:58,724
So they've only been able to come up with like 20 or 30, like in that range, 20 to 30 different drivechains. And that actually includes the notion that about maybe approximately 10 of them would be the same design, but distinct. So 10, I think that 10 are like the Thunder drivechain.

578
00:57:58,724 --> 00:58:20,724
So there's actually going to be so much demand in the future, potentially, for large block drivechains, that there will be more than one of them. Because that just like, you know, McDonald's, right, there isn't just one McDonald's. There's like many of them, because there's so many people out there, that the best way to serve them all efficiently is to have multiple locations that are the same design.

579
00:58:20,724 --> 00:58:44,724
Similarly, there would be in the future, potentially, like 10 different Thunder, big block drivechains. So that's like roughly leaving like 10 or so more others that are distinct, like the privacy, the smart contracts, the hive mind drivechain, which is a peer to peer Oracle network. So overall, there'd be like 10 to 20 or 30 at most drivechains.

580
00:58:44,724 --> 00:59:13,725
So that would leave like, roughly 200 empty slots. And some people say, well, what if there's more than 200 drivechains? What if we run out of slots? Well, then you can have drivechains on drivechains. And you could also do a fork, you know, another soft fork of Bitcoin to increase the number of slots. One reason why they didn't make the number of slots at the very beginning, like 10,000, is because that that would have increased the amount of data.

581
00:59:14,725 --> 00:59:39,725
Involved in layer one for drivechain. So right now, the way drivechain is designed, it's designed to have an extremely small footprint of data on layer one, because of course, the drivechain designers themselves are emphatically small block Bitcoiners. In fact, they have voiced support for contemplating Bitcoin blocks becoming even smaller on layer one.

582
00:59:39,725 --> 01:00:07,725
So they're part of that small block camp that's like very small block camp. Because that's what decentralization is all about, you know, bringing nodes, the phones, like having a node in your smartphone, that kind of thing requires blocks to be quite small. So the, to address your question, kind of wrapping it all up, we like small blocks. And we think that 200 plus drivechain slots are more than enough to start.

583
01:00:08,725 --> 01:00:32,725
And the reason why it isn't like 2000 is that that would have involved a slightly higher footprint of data for nodes, which ties back into that small block issue. So yeah, you're right, like there can be lots of drivechains. And then this in the distant future, the issue could be revisited, or there could just be drivechains on drivechains, and then no need to change anything.

584
01:00:32,725 --> 01:00:56,725
Also, just on this topic of like forks and whatnot, the, if there ever were a problem with drivechain, it could be forked out. Right, we could go backwards in theory, just like some people are saying, let's get rid of like taproot or SegWit. Like some people are always saying that kind of thing. I don't support that. But the, you know, these things can be reversed in theory. So that's something to think about.

585
01:00:56,725 --> 01:01:22,725
And I feel quite confident that like, this is an idea seven years in, which is gaining support and has support among some of the most well known Bitcoiners alive. So drivechain is a very conservative step. And at the same time, its advocates like me need to be respectful that no change for Bitcoin's consensus rules is a small change.

586
01:01:23,725 --> 01:01:38,725
And that changing Bitcoin is like doing heart surgery. Changing opcodes are an invasive procedure. So it should be done with only the greatest respect for the importance of conservatism, the importance of safety.

587
01:01:38,725 --> 01:01:54,725
And along those lines, it's important to recognize that drivechain, while it is a change, it is a change which is understood and intended to be one that helps avoid future changes.

588
01:01:54,725 --> 01:02:22,725
So anyone who says, hey, let's not change Bitcoin ever again, that person ironically, should be actually in favor of an additional change, which is the drivechain change, because drivechain is a change which would enable innovation and experimentation on Bitcoin in these partitioned layer twos, these sidechains, which avoids the need to change layer one.

589
01:02:23,725 --> 01:02:38,725
Like if somebody says, hey, let's do zero knowledge proofs. Let's do roll ups. Let's do ring signatures. Let's do any of these advanced ideas on Bitcoin. Right now, the only way to do that is to go into a federated sidechain or an altcoin.

590
01:02:38,725 --> 01:02:53,725
So it can't be done on Bitcoin because a federated sidechain really isn't on Bitcoin. It's not peer to peer. It's federated. And the altcoin, of course, isn't on Bitcoin. It's completely distinct from Bitcoin. The altcoin competes with Bitcoin.

591
01:02:53,725 --> 01:03:12,724
So that's the reason why Liquid is great. At least Liquid isn't competing with Bitcoin for monetary premium. The native token on Liquid is Liquid Bitcoin. Now, Liquid does compete with Bitcoin for transaction fees because it's not a merged mind sidechain like RSK.

592
01:03:12,724 --> 01:03:34,724
RSK, I want to study it more because it's the thing which is the closest to a drivechain. However, it's fundamentally different from a drivechain because it's not a peer to peer two way peg. So I think it's cool that their native token is a synthetic Bitcoin and they're merged minds. They have those two things going for them.

593
01:03:34,724 --> 01:04:03,724
But it's also not peer to peer. It's federated and therefore it's small size, I don't think should be viewed as any indication of the potential demand for drivechains. So I'm optimistic about the notion that drivechains are fundamentally different than federations and therefore the demand for drivechains could be in the billions. Like on Ethereum, they have billions of dollars on L2s. And I think in Bitcoin, the same thing could be true and even more so.

594
01:04:04,724 --> 01:04:27,724
Well, if any more questions from the audience, let me just like reset the room. This is Drivechain Twitter Spaces. We go every Monday and Thursday. I'm Henry Magrum. I'm an employee of LayerTwo Labs.

595
01:04:27,724 --> 01:04:51,724
I fell in love with Drivechain a year ago when its co-author, Paul Sztorc, appeared on Nick Carter's podcast in January. I think it was January 31st, 2022. And that got me really interested in the security budget and how merged mining can fix the security budget and avoid inflation for Bitcoin.

596
01:04:51,724 --> 01:05:19,724
This is a hot topic. Every day I see this Ethereum maxi investor, Justin Bonds, and also Evan Van Ness, an Ethereum maxi. Actually, I shouldn't describe them that way. I don't know exactly what they think. But it seems like they're Ethereum promoters. And they're saying, both of them, that Bitcoin is going to need to do inflation. And they mock Bitcoin on this count.

597
01:05:19,724 --> 01:05:39,724
So I think they're mistaken because of the possibility of Drivechain. But I also think that they will be vindicated if Bitcoin doesn't do Drivechain. So I'm kind of a Drivechain maxi, personally. I feel like this is the change that will make Bitcoin much stronger and cooler and win.

598
01:05:39,724 --> 01:05:55,724
But I'm not so in love with Bitcoin that I think that Bitcoin will succeed regardless of what changes are done. It's interesting philosophically how, if you're too in love with a project, that can actually stifle its development.

599
01:05:55,724 --> 01:06:23,724
If you have kids and you say, my kids are perfect. Well, if you overdo that too much, then you're not going to teach them things. You're not going to encourage them to be better. You're not going to encourage them to learn. So if people say Bitcoin is perfect, it'll succeed. It doesn't need to change. We don't have to worry about anything for Bitcoin. Just buy it and you'll be rich and you'll have eternal riches.

600
01:06:24,724 --> 01:06:48,724
And, you know, great things. Then the outcome from that mentality is one of sclerosis and inertia and complacency. So what's going to happen in the worst case scenario, and this is kind of like doom and gloom, but in the worst case scenario, Bitcoin is flipped in its market cap.

601
01:06:49,724 --> 01:07:04,724
And then the Ethereum promoters declare victory and a lot of Bitcoiners might leave and just buy Ethereum and assume that Ethereum is now the better investment and that Bitcoin is becoming a digital gold in the worst sense.

602
01:07:04,724 --> 01:07:25,724
A investment which is like some kind of like historical relic. Like this cypherpunk community that's diminishing in relevance and importance. So I think the drivechain can transform Bitcoin by making it bigger and better and maintain its leadership and in fact increase its dominance.

603
01:07:26,724 --> 01:07:48,724
Let's get back to 100% dominant. Let's not have any competition. Let's have 100% of altcoin projects on Bitcoin. That's right. All the altcoins, the good and the bad, the shitcoins, bring them all over to Bitcoin and we'll get all of the value, all of the miner fee revenue, all the transaction fees, and then Bitcoin will have no competition.

604
01:07:48,724 --> 01:08:05,724
Bitcoin layer one will be the basis and platform for everything in crypto without exception. It'll have no competition and it'll be so big and there'll be so many people using it that the political support for it will be much stronger.

605
01:08:05,724 --> 01:08:21,724
So right now with Ethereum, they did the proof of stake thing and they're trying to argue that that's a more sustainable and ecological approach. And if they were all using a Bitcoin sidechain, they wouldn't be saying those things.

606
01:08:22,724 --> 01:08:41,724
So if everyone's building on Bitcoin, then Bitcoin has no enemies. And or at least within the crypto realm, it would have no enemies and no competition. So that's the ideal situation is to have everything built on Bitcoin. And that's what drivechain aspires to produce.

607
01:08:42,724 --> 01:08:44,724
Henry, can I ask another question?

608
01:08:44,724 --> 01:08:45,724
Yes, please.

609
01:08:49,116 --> 01:08:54,216
through. don't have any great inputs, arguments or defenses.

610
01:08:54,496 --> 01:08:56,076
so what happens with Lightning?

611
01:08:56,836 --> 01:09:01,276
Because Lightning right now, I consider it kind of like a semi -private security

612
01:09:01,276 --> 01:09:07,196
blanket. Like I don't know enough about Monero and if

613
01:09:07,196 --> 01:09:08,196
I should even trust

614
01:09:08,420 --> 01:09:09,460
something like Monero.

615
01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:11,320
So Lightning is my security blanket.

616
01:09:11,420 --> 01:09:17,300
I got a note and I can send it privately if I'm careful, put it a mixer and

617
01:09:17,300 --> 01:09:20,440
then make sure I'm sending it with a private channel if I have to.

618
01:09:20,580 --> 01:09:25,720
I don't really plan on, I don't wanna have to do any of that stuff, but just say that

619
01:09:25,720 --> 01:09:27,560
one day that's where we're at.

620
01:09:28,724 --> 01:09:50,724
So what does it do with if we adopt drivechains, then what happens with Lightning? Like does Lightning become obsolete and then we have to implement some kind of ring signature side or drivechain thingy? I don't know. What's your take on that?

621
01:09:51,724 --> 01:10:13,724
I see drivechain as a complement to Lightning. So Lightning is awesome. And a lot of brilliant people work in the Lightning development space. And there are many users of Lightning around the world. And the Lightning experience includes valuable tradeoffs and benefits.

622
01:10:13,724 --> 01:10:41,724
So there could be a drivechain which is built to facilitate Lightning use. And there could be Lightning use on multiple drivechains. And a lot of the ideas and technology of Lightning would be enhanced and facilitated through drivechain. So I see them not as competition, but as complements to each other and options. So that's sort of the view.

623
01:10:43,724 --> 01:10:59,724
Now to be totally fair and honest, there's also a view which is that Lightning is not enough, to be frank. And doing all of the transactions for the world on Lightning, that model probably isn't a viable picture of the future.

624
01:10:59,724 --> 01:11:19,724
And the evidence so far suggests that. And like the rate at which things are going kind of suggests that. So people need to get real about the fact that like Bitcoin needs more than just Lightning. And the work on Lightning has been excellent so far, and it should continue.

625
01:11:19,724 --> 01:11:40,724
But it would be good if the sidechain vision is also pursued and also available. And there will definitely be some overlap and synergy between those two, you know, views and projects.

626
01:11:40,724 --> 01:12:06,724
Well, I have scheduled a conversation on Clubhouse, which is a separate social audio platform. And it starts in 10 minutes. So anyone who wants to transition over there is welcome to. Let me share in the room here, a link to that. So that anyone who wants to join can.

627
01:12:06,724 --> 01:12:24,724
I'm going to start at 11 o'clock.

628
01:12:24,724 --> 01:12:51,724
So there it is in the nest. That's a link to the newly formed Bitcoin drivechain friends house in Clubhouse. Clubhouse has these houses, and you can belong to a house. And then once you belong to the house, you can attend the rooms in the house. It has this house and rooms analogy going on.

629
01:12:51,724 --> 01:13:17,724
So why don't we break now? And then in about five minutes, we'll be there. If you'd like to join. The people in Cafe Bitcoin, a lot of them have been chatting with me for like over a year. So it's a much more familiar environment. Whereas Twitter spaces has strangers come and go into Twitter spaces like this, which is also great. It's great to have those different kinds of conversations.

630
01:13:18,724 --> 01:13:35,724
Here it tends to be tends to be more formal. And over there, it's like very familiar and casual. So it's a different kind of conversation. You're all welcome to join. No one has to join. It's all optional. And I'll see you again all on Monday.

631
01:13:36,724 --> 01:13:56,724
And in the meantime, I encourage you to check out our YouTube channel, LayerTwo Labs. We have a YouTube channel, you can find it if you go to drivechain.info. Or if you just go to I'll, I'll tell you exactly how to find it.

632
01:13:57,724 --> 01:14:16,724
It's well, if you just go to YouTube and search for LayerTwo Labs, you'll find it. And yeah, anyway, thanks, everyone for joining. Thanks again for the questions. We had really great questions today. Thank you for those who joined the stage. Please come back on Monday or any other time and ask more questions and share your comments.

633
01:14:17,724 --> 01:14:37,724
Anyone who has a criticism or concern about drivechain is especially encouraged to attend, because it is those who are thinking carefully and critically about drivechain, who do a valuable service to Bitcoin and to drivechain by ensuring that this project is valuable and worthwhile.

634
01:14:38,724 --> 01:14:49,724
And it's precisely those who are critics of drivechain, who I'm most interested in connecting with and getting them the best possible answers so that they can be converted, frankly, into proponents.

635
01:14:49,724 --> 01:15:05,724
People who are outspoken critics and, you know, enthusiastic thinkers are the ones who are most useful to engage with in this kind of situation. Because time is of the essence. We want to do this change as soon as possible at the appropriate time.

636
01:15:05,724 --> 01:15:34,724
And that way it isn't delayed, because every day that Bitcoin exists without drivechain is another day when the technological, narrative and economic benefits of drivechain are deprived from Bitcoiners and given to altcoiners, which creates in the long run, in the worst possible case, a scenario where Bitcoin loses its network effect dominance, its market cap dominance and its narrative momentum and energy.

637
01:15:35,724 --> 01:15:51,724
And would no longer have a monetization narrative, a narrative of, you know, becoming the world's money and the winning protocol. It's important in the realm of protocol competition for there to be, for one to be a winner, right?

638
01:15:51,724 --> 01:15:59,724
You don't want to be a small protocol. You want to be big, as big as possible. And that's what drivechain is all about. It's about making Bitcoin as big as possible.

639
01:15:59,724 --> 01:16:04,724
All right. Thanks again. See you next time.