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Hello everybody and welcome to Encrypted Livestream and today we are talking to Paul
Sztorc.

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It's the founder and CEO at LayerTwo Labs and founder at eCash.com.

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So welcome to all who watch us on YouTube and Twitter.

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And if you want to share the ideas that Paul Sztorc is persuading, so share this
translation on Twitter and whatever social network.

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Paul, hey, nice to see you. I can say nice to see you in Ukraine online, but though
you're in Ukrainian livestream.

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Oh, well, hey, thanks for having me.

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Cool. So we have a bunch of questions and we also have some questions from our
audience.

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I will ask them later so we can stick to our plan.

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And the first question is, so let's start simple.

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Tell us, please, what do you do in Bitcoin and how you got into this space in the
first place?

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Do you remember when you first heard about Bitcoin?

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What was your very first reaction?

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This is brilliant or this is nonsense.

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Well, you know, the big news I have now is that later in August, we're doing this
hard fork of Bitcoin where, you know, we'll talk about this for sure.

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So this is the big news. So that's that's kind of what I'm doing now.

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And you can read all about that on eCash.com and etc.

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How did I first get into Bitcoin?

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You know, when I first heard about it, I did think it was nonsense.

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It was all the way back in 2010 or 2011.

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Maybe it's 2011. I think it was 2010.

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And there was there was this thing, the Free State Project in America, where they
wanted a bunch of libertarians to move to one single state in the United States, New
Hampshire.

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And they were saying, if you come to a pork fest, this like it's kind of a
conference and they will give you free Bitcoin.

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And I was like, this is the silliest thing I've ever heard in my entire life.

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These crazy libertarians are trying to.

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So I did think it was ridiculous, but eventually I read the Wired article about Silk
Road, which was the online marketplace where you could buy drugs.

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And I was not interested in buying any drugs, but I thought it was intriguing
because you would think someone who's like a drug addict or, you know, they really
want the drugs.

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So I would think like some part of it must work, you know, because if they could get
free drugs out of it, they probably would.

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So that article kind of made me like think like, wait a minute, like I actually
thought, oh, I'm too late because it's already being used by regular people.

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It's too late to like speculate in it. That was like 2011 or something when I kind
of heard about it the second time.

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So you didn't like the drugs, but you do like the idea of free money that's not
controlled by any government.

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Yeah, if you have a background in economics.

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And so I knew all about, like, for example, the inflation tax.

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And I knew a lot about banking and the history of banking and the Federal Reserve.

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I knew a lot about international payments even back then.

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And, you know, with the drug thing, I just thought like if you if people who are
interested in drugs, they'll do anything to get their their drugs.

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They'll like do they'll do they'll tell all kinds of lies.

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They'll they'll break the law. They'll steal.

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So I was just kind of thinking, huh, it's weird that someone built this anonymous
kind of computer thing and it's holding up.

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You know, it's not it's work. It's actually working.

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So that that kind of made me think it was much more serious than just what I had
thought about it when I got a silly email from libertarians at the Free State
Project.

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And what were your first steps in Bitcoin?

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I mean, what is your background?

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What what what first steps you do in Bitcoin?

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Well, you know, I had to read the forum.

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That was very interesting back in the day.

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Bitcoin talk dot org.

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At the time, there weren't as many posts, so everyone could read the whole thing.

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So you could go back and read.

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There are only so many new posts each day.

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And there was a lot of backlog.

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So you could you could read them on that.

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That was very interesting.

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That made me also think, oh, this is much more serious than I had first thought.

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And yeah, then eventually I started a blog and it was about the technology behind
Bitcoin and it was like linked to from the forum.

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My big break was when Adam Back linked to it in 2014 in December.

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I think Adam Back linked to it on Bitcoin talk.

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And he said, oh, there's this argument about nothing will be will ever be cheaper
than proof of work because there was a huge proof of work, proof of stake debate at
the time.

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And so that was sort of how I became more well-known back in the day.

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And then, you know, I've been presenting at Bitcoin conferences.

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I presented every year at TabComp.

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I presented the scaling Bitcoin conferences.

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So I've I have been very active at, you know, Bitcoin Plus Plus, Building on
Bitcoin, all these things.

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The main magazine conference I've spoken to every single Bitcoin magazine conference
except for the Middle East, North Africa ones.

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But so, yeah, I've been in the conference circuit a lot.

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I've been in lots of conversations.

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I put a lot of published lots of writing.

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So I did quite a bit.

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That's cool. So you're a real OG.

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You've been in this industry for a long time.

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So how has it changed over those years?

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Are you happy with the direction Bitcoin is heading in or is there something you
disagree with?

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For example, the growing institutionalization, the fact that funds and governments
are increasingly the ones in the game rather than decentralized community.

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Well, I don't have a problem with that by itself, but I do have a lot of problems.

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I wrote this article over a year ago called The Derangements of Bitcoin, which is
that these are just a bunch of just a long list of false things that we believe or
that we are sort of chasing.

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But we are not.

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We're not. We've been very slow to correct the mistakes.

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So I think people can find that that article about all of the things.

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So the fact that institutions are getting involved, I think that's a very normal
part of growing.

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The problem is just overall, we have the wrong voices being influential.

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So, for example, I don't mind that Michael Saylor is buying the coins, but then
Michael Saylor will try to weigh in on ossification or what he thinks ossification
is or what he thinks Bitcoin development is.

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And similarly, we have, you know, we have BlackRock and we have ETFs.

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All that stuff is great.

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But then they try to weigh in on quantum or something and they don't really know
what they're talking about.

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So in that way, it's well, that's one thing that's gotten worse.

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So back in back in the day, certainly in 2011 or 2014, even if you went to a Bitcoin
convention, you know, and you went to like the BitPay booth, for example, BitPay
used to be much more important now.

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Not so much. But if you went to the BitPay booth, the CEO was just in the booth.

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I mean, there were other people there, like maybe eight or so people.

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But you could just, you know, you could just at lunch, all the lunch was just in one
place.

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So when you're eating, you could just go right up to Barry Silbert and start talking
to him if you wanted to.

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So everyone's way more accessible.

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But today it would be very hard to, you know, talk to Michael Saylor, try to talk
some sense into him or any of these other people.

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So as it's grown, the conversation has become more difficult.

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And I think with the scaling Bitcoin in 2050, we had kind of like a, you might call
it a Dunbar's number thing.

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There's this idea that humans can only have like 150 or so like real relationships
at a time.

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And because it's just there's only so much room in your in your mind for that.

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And that so I think the community then started to split.

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And this has continued to happen with the altcoins and stuff like that.

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So that's one way it's gotten worse.

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But I still think that it's kind of natural thing when you scale and people become
more influential and more valuable.

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And I think it's natural.

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It's a pity for sure that you can just go with Barry Silbert or Saylor on lunch, but
it's pretty natural.

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So of all the things the community predicted in the early days, what actually came
true and what turned out to be naive fantasy, if you can remember some.

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Well, BitPay was certainly this idea that you could every merchant would accept
Bitcoin because you would go to the merchant.

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You'd say, hey, the credit card charges you a certain amount flat fee and plus a
percent, whereas BitPay will do the first million dollars of transaction processing
for free.

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They will convert it from Bitcoin to U.S. dollars for you, and then they'll put it
in your bank account 24 hours later.

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And that was quite a pitch.

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And that was much better than the credit card companies where you could get charged
back up to 90 days in the future.

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You could get it charged back and have a payment reversed.

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And the credit card companies charge more money.

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So. So actually, there was quite a good pitch, but that didn't really pan out.

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The whole payments use case did not really take off.

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So that would be one thing where it didn't quite go the direction expected.

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Another thing that I think is interesting to point out, and you got to give some
people credit, even though I I criticize some people a lot, but I give some of them
some credit as well, which is that many of the early Bitcoin developers at the time,
they were convinced that they were going to be like arrested or maybe even, you
know, threatened or something like that, assassinated and threatened by governments
or their own governments or something like that.

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None of that really happened either.

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That did, of course, some some people, the samurai devs.

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And so it's like, you know, six or eight people.

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But everyone always thought, oh, there'll be a time when, like, the website goes
down, everything gets like scrubbed.

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You know, nothing like that really happened, which is interesting.

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So those are some things that didn't quite happen from an early age.

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Like it was really to me, I thought Bitcoin had enormous potential and that you
would people would see like, OK, this could be used for every dark market
transaction, every illegal transaction, every tax evasion, everyone, everyone who's
getting divorced and trying to hide money for this or every like kind of like
sinister.

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But it can also be used for every.

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Legitimate transaction, and they look the same, so you can have both blend in.

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And on top of all that, there's no inflation tax, which there's it seemed obvious to
me at the time that every government in the world, they love printing, printing
money.

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So and controlling them.

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Yeah, right.

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So it was kind of like, you know, especially like there was still recently after
2008 financial crisis.

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It was kind of, you know, the euro obviously was it seemed like the euro was not
being managed great.

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It seemed like every other it seemed like every single currency was on it.

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So it's to me, it always added up to like a big success for Bitcoin.

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So that so a lot of that did did pan out exactly the way I thought.

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So there's a big mixture.

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Sure, sure.

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But mostly it it came better than you expected.

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Right.

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Well, I had really high expectations.

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OK, one thing that was also worse than expected was that there used to always be
this idea that, OK, since Bitcoin's open source, whatever is invented, we'll just
add it bolted onto Bitcoin.

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And in practice, that hasn't happened at all.

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And we haven't even had the open ended like L2 ecosystem that would facilitate that
on the optional L2s.

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So that's part of why I'm introducing a new option, the new fork option.

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So that because that was pretty disappointing because we've had all this stuff where
people have invented new privacy technology, new scalable, you know, ideas, new ways
of like doing convenience.

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So like there was originally this idea of Namecoin and Ethereum had the E.N.S.

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And so some ideas have been reinvented many times.

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Even USDT.

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That was originally way back when that was a coin.

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Yeah. So so this idea that since Bitcoin's open source, you can't compete with it
technologically.

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That is another thing that didn't.

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But, yeah, mostly I would say my expectation was super high and they were basically
met.

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But I think actually, you know, I was thinking Bitcoin would be even bigger.

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It would be like in use around the world and it would be, you know, I actually
thought it would be even bigger.

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So it's funny you say that, that it exceeded that because my expectations were
really, really, really high.

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When I figured that out, I was like, wow, this is it.

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I guess I guess still that if you today will show what happened to you like in 2011,
you say, wow.

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Yeah, because, of course, it has gone up ninety nine million percent from ten cents
per coin to one hundred thousand dollars per coin.

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So that's obviously the greatest performance in the history.

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And that's not even about the price. It's about like the adoption and all these
suits talking about Bitcoin and adding it to ETFs and all this kind of stuff.

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And having the president presidential candidate Donald Trump speak in the Nashville
conference in twenty twenty four.

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That would have been that would have kind of blown my mind if someone had said back
in back in 2011 or back in 2014.

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They say in 10 years, a presidential candidate will be courting.

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Because I remember even in the crypto winter of 2018, there was no we were not sure
that everything will not collapse.

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Now we're sure that Bitcoin and crypto will will not disappear.

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But even in 2018, it was not like very sure about it.

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I've lived there a few winters. I mean, even I remember there was a tweet.

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Maybe, you know, this tweet. There was a tweet from Eric Wall because it was about
it was partially about Ukraine.

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And it was like it was like Christine Lagarde is saying cryptocurrencies are not
money.

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Full stop. But then it was like also saying Ukraine has gotten all these donations
in in BTC and Ethereum because the traditional.

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Like there's no other way for individual person to like directly donate.

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And so it was kind of like it was kind of like this moment where.

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Yeah, we've always had lots of skeptics, but there's always been like the Canadian
truckers, COVID protests.

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Like there's always been clues that fundamentally it's a very, very good idea.

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And so that's that's always those clues have always been there, you know, even
though it's.

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I remember another tweet by Peter Todd when they said that he's Satoshi Nakamoto.

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And he tweeted, if I was Satoshi Nakamoto, Ukraine has like a million of FPV drones.

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So you're a well-known figure in the community and the innovator, but not everyone
is a fan of your ideas.

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So tell us exactly you came up with what exactly you came up with that so many
people argue with you about.

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Well, yes, this idea of drive chain.

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And I think, first of all, I think that even though this idea is pretty simple, I
think there's just something about new technology that makes people want to.

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Maybe it's too abstract, and so they don't.

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But I think the real reason why a lot of people don't like it is because it does
make a lot of stuff look worse by comparison.

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Like, for example, Blockstream was this whole company that was started and they
raised like basically there is 21 million in 2014.

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And then they raised another 55 million in 2015.

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And they according to them, they converted all this to BTC.

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So this is like one hundred and fifty five thousand BTC.

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And then they raised hundreds of millions of dollars since.

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They're a very, very famous company, but they did they raise their money to do side
chains.

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And then they kind of basically did not do that.

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But that's sort of similar to what this idea is.

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And then my idea of drive chain is also that happens to be a little bit better than
the Lightning Network.

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So I think the Lightning people may possibly, I don't know, feel threatened by that.

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And there's a whole developer prestige economy where if someone has prestige and
other people don't.

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And so I think I think a lot of that's part of it.

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I think it's also like a bunch of weird misunderstandings and bad timing.

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So like the drive chain idea is a minor centric L2.

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It's just a my merge mind.

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And then it's the the deposits and withdrawals are are sort of gated by the miners
to some extent.

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And the idea is they're making so much.

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Miners would be making so much money from the transaction fees that they would keep
the deposits and withdrawals moving, which is like takes them no effort to do.

197
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,000
So it's like a bunch of free money and no effort.

198
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:13,000
And then versus. But I think during the block size war, there became this idea of
extreme skepticism of the miners because miners were doing Segway to X back in 2017.

199
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,000
And so I think that's that's part of it.

200
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:25,000
Another thing is over time, the purity tests, the toxic maximalist purity tests have
have evolved and become, I think, very deranged.

201
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:33,000
So in the past, it was like, should we allow Litecoin to show up at a Bitcoin
convention?

202
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:39,000
And people would say no, because Litecoin is basically just like a copy and paste of
Bitcoin.

203
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:49,000
But now it's become even if you want to build, if you want to do something, you say
we're going to have the same Zcash level privacy transactions on Bitcoin that only
using BTC.

204
00:19:49,000 --> 00:20:03,000
Well, just because you are alluding to the fact because you're saying that there's
something good about an altcoin somewhere, people now don't like that, which that's
I think is truly ridiculous and bizarre.

205
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,000
But, yeah, I don't know why. You know, one of our Peter Todd.

206
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:11,000
So I actually like Peter Todd quite a bit, but he's a huge critic of drive chain.

207
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:15,000
And then we paid him to write an article about why.

208
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:19,000
But the article and you can see I have the article and like the response.

209
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:25,000
But in his article, basically every single sentence and paragraph is is wrong.

210
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:33,000
So I was very disappointed. And it also was kind of clear that he had never visited
the website because he didn't even realize that the code was out.

211
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:42,000
He was saying there's no code for this. And actually there had been code for like
two and a half years at that point, including like a graphical user interface and
stuff.

212
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:46,000
So I think a lot of it is just people are too busy to look into things.

213
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,000
There's a lot of claims out there.

214
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:57,000
You just waste your money. But on the other hand, he just proved that you're right.
Right.

215
00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:05,000
Right. Well, because, you know, we really wanted to know, like, what what are the
arguments against this?

216
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,000
So and of course, I think Peter is one of the best.

217
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:13,000
Like he would be one of the highest quality critiques if they were real.

218
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:21,000
But since they really weren't, then I thought, OK, well, then probably a lot of
these other people are copying Peter's test, so to speak.

219
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:29,000
And they just think maybe. So I think that could be I think a lot of it is just a
mistake.

220
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:39,000
Some people think it's too good to be true, because what I'm arguing is that we have
something that scales Bitcoin to eight billion people and gives Zcash level privacy
and gives infinite extensibility.

221
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:53,000
You can have gone to different L2s, solves governance indirectly because it doesn't
matter if what the L1 does or what all the L2s do, because you can start a new L2
that solves security budget.

222
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,000
So I think people just can't wrap their head around how good it is to some extent.

223
00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:00,000
Or it could be a giant disaster and it might be completely wrong.

224
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:07,000
So one of your ideas that's been actively discussed right now is the e-cash fork.

225
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,000
And we know that Bitcoin forks happen fairly rarely.

226
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:17,000
So why is that? It's a good question, because I think actually we should do it more.

227
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:24,000
But really, there was only one kind of serious Bitcoin fork in the sense of hard
forking into a new project.

228
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,000
And that was Bitcoin cash back in 2017.

229
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:34,000
And of course, Bitcoin tries to do the soft fork upgrade where it doesn't split the
network, but it does upgrade.

230
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:38,000
And you both styles of software run in parallel.

231
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,000
But even that doesn't happen now.

232
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,000
So now nothing happens.

233
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,000
So it's kind of like...

234
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,000
Unfortunately.

235
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:54,000
Yeah. So because a lot of this stuff, the soft forks are opt-in, reversible and
ignorable upgrades.

236
00:22:54,000 --> 00:23:00,000
So we should do more. It kind of proves that they're actually quite helpful and
there's nothing wrong with them.

237
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:08,000
And even that's become a controversial statement, even though to me it's completely
straightforward and obvious.

238
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:14,000
As to why the hard fork is so rare, I don't know, because it gives everyone free
money.

239
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:20,000
And after Bitcoin cash, it's true, there were a long series of kind of copycat
imitators.

240
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:24,000
It was like a Bitcoin gold, Bitcoin diamond, Bitcoin private or whatever.

241
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,000
Those were mostly insincere.

242
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,000
Those were just kind of people playing around.

243
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,000
But I think people should do the hard fork more.

244
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:41,000
I would say it is something of a last resort where people would say, well, splitting
the network is inconvenient.

245
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:50,000
Because everyone has to worry about which coins they might want to have or lose or
focus on.

246
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,000
And so there is a little bit of an inconvenience.

247
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,000
But overall, it just lets us have...

248
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,000
Some people want apples, some people want oranges.

249
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:01,000
And this is as well.

250
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,000
For every apple, it just splits into an apple and an orange.

251
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,000
You would think this idea would be much more popular.

252
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:11,000
You think everyone would be cheering this on and saying, let's do it a hundred
times.

253
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:16,000
And every time there's any dispute and anyone wants to talk about quantum or
something, we'll just do another thing.

254
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,000
And then we'll at least get to see what the actual software is like.

255
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,000
Give birth to a new wave of forks.

256
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,000
Yeah, I think that's actually pretty rational.

257
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:37,000
But probably one reason why it's rare is that the Maxi cult, the idea of just
Bitcoin is the only thing you need, is very, very strong psychologically.

258
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:44,000
So people are not even in the frame of mind where they would say, oh, let's just
have a bunch of...

259
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:50,000
I can be the consumer and we'll just have five or six things and I can just choose
among them as I wish.

260
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:59,000
People really want there to be one team, one brand, which is fine as long as the
brand doesn't have some kind of fatal flaw.

261
00:24:59,655 --> 00:25:09,655
OK, and like a question from Bitcoin Newbie, who actually has the right to fork
Bitcoin?

262
00:25:09,735 --> 00:25:13,495
Do you need anyone's permission or you can just run it and whatever?

263
00:25:13,855 --> 00:25:15,575
Well, I would say that anyone can do it.

264
00:25:15,615 --> 00:25:26,415
But I think in a way that proves that there still is a pretty high barrier to entry,
because why would anyone pay attention to thousands and thousands and thousands,

265
00:25:26,495 --> 00:25:37,775
thousands of forks? So you do need to get a critical mass of people to switch over
to their idea and to just give it the attention that it needs.

266
00:25:40,295 --> 00:25:45,815
And even if you don't have that on day one, you need to have the ability to get it
at some point in the future.

267
00:25:46,535 --> 00:25:48,055
So that that's needed.

268
00:25:50,175 --> 00:25:58,575
But I think that's the thing is the hard fork is what you do when you cannot get the
soft fork and or when you cannot persuade people.

269
00:25:58,575 --> 00:26:00,415
So this was similar to in Bitcoin Cash.

270
00:26:00,775 --> 00:26:06,935
They were trying to get the block size increase for a really long time, but they had
not persuaded enough people.

271
00:26:07,335 --> 00:26:10,015
And then they just launched Bitcoin Cash and they thought, well, here it is.

272
00:26:10,055 --> 00:26:17,695
So it's actually easier to in one in one sense, it's easier to do the hard fork,
launch a new project.

273
00:26:18,815 --> 00:26:21,975
Of course, then, you know, you have to say, how is this project going to compete
with BTC?

274
00:26:21,975 --> 00:26:26,375
So you need really good reasons why you think it's going to ultimately be better
than BTC.

275
00:26:27,295 --> 00:26:29,375
So that's that's my next question.

276
00:26:29,375 --> 00:26:38,655
So we are talking that Bitcoin forks are rare and projects like Bitcoin Cash,
Bitcoin SV, Bitcoin Gold, we don't see them now.

277
00:26:39,095 --> 00:26:41,775
So why couldn't any of them overtake the original?

278
00:26:41,775 --> 00:26:43,695
What were their problem?

279
00:26:44,855 --> 00:26:48,895
Well, I think Bitcoin Cash actually was not a great idea in many ways.

280
00:26:48,895 --> 00:26:52,815
So I think it was a bad idea, bad execution, bad, a long list of things.

281
00:26:52,815 --> 00:26:58,615
So I can give you a really, really long list and maybe you can just interrupt me
when you've heard enough or something.

282
00:26:58,615 --> 00:27:05,775
But but for starters, the core dispute between the large blockers and small blockers
was this block size thing.

283
00:27:06,135 --> 00:27:10,695
Now, the small blocker said you can have a small block L1 and then you could put
large block L2.

284
00:27:11,055 --> 00:27:14,615
And that's exactly what I'm trying to do with drive chain and with e-cash.

285
00:27:14,935 --> 00:27:18,335
So small block L1, optional large block L2.

286
00:27:18,655 --> 00:27:22,215
And this works great because the L2 is optional.

287
00:27:22,215 --> 00:27:24,655
And but the L, every L2 needs the L1.

288
00:27:24,655 --> 00:27:33,855
So it's just like this is the clever thing to do is have the cheaper thing be
mandatory for everyone and the more expensive thing be an optional add in.

289
00:27:34,095 --> 00:27:41,095
The Bitcoin Cash idea was to take the L1 and multiply it by eight, which would have
bought you a little bit of time.

290
00:27:41,815 --> 00:27:46,855
But ultimately, the eight megabyte block size, that's not enough to scale to the
whole planet Earth either.

291
00:27:47,335 --> 00:27:49,295
So it's not actually a final solution.

292
00:27:49,735 --> 00:27:51,335
It just kicks the can down the road.

293
00:27:51,335 --> 00:27:53,055
You know, it just buys you a little bit of time.

294
00:27:54,135 --> 00:27:58,095
Before you have to hard fork again, and if that really had worked.

295
00:27:59,095 --> 00:28:03,135
Then at that point, you know, BTC, the original could also have hard forked.

296
00:28:04,175 --> 00:28:07,975
You know, if they do eight to 32, BTC could have done one to 32.

297
00:28:08,975 --> 00:28:11,375
So just the core idea is not good.

298
00:28:11,535 --> 00:28:14,615
And the strategy of getting there by the hard fork is not good.

299
00:28:15,175 --> 00:28:19,335
I also think it's suffered by by having the same name, you know, the Bitcoin Cash
name.

300
00:28:19,335 --> 00:28:25,935
I think that was just a pointlessly confusing thing to have two projects with the
same name.

301
00:28:26,255 --> 00:28:33,015
Especially when one of those projects is the number one brand, like in the whole
cryptocurrency industry, in the longest project.

302
00:28:33,015 --> 00:28:35,855
So I thought that was that was confusing.

303
00:28:36,335 --> 00:28:45,055
The way they, the large blockers went about getting what they wanted was that there
was this thing Segway 2X that they agreed about in May of 2017.

304
00:28:45,535 --> 00:28:51,215
Then in August, Omari Sashay created Bitcoin Cash, but he didn't like really tell
anyone about it.

305
00:28:51,215 --> 00:29:00,295
And then not until November, months later, not until November, did they abandon
Segway 2X and then switch to Bitcoin Cash.

306
00:29:00,295 --> 00:29:03,375
So it was kind of not very planned out.

307
00:29:04,495 --> 00:29:19,655
And it was very like, you know, it already Bitcoin Cash already been existing for
months before they before people when I say they, I mean, like the big media outlets
of the large blocker world had told anyone about it.

308
00:29:19,775 --> 00:29:24,895
So I think that, you know, it was just like kind of confusing.

309
00:29:24,895 --> 00:29:36,175
Another thing is that the core idea, not only was it bad from a technical point of
view, but it was actually somewhat unpopular because most people were small blockers
at the time.

310
00:29:36,655 --> 00:29:39,375
Most people believed correctly they should scale in layers.

311
00:29:39,695 --> 00:29:43,695
A lot. There's a lot of optimism about the Lightning Network back then.

312
00:29:44,495 --> 00:29:47,855
So most people thought, you know, we should try that.

313
00:29:48,015 --> 00:29:52,695
There already was the Segway idea already increased the block size from one to four
megabytes.

314
00:29:52,975 --> 00:29:56,175
So there was people already thought we'd worked out this compromise.

315
00:29:56,575 --> 00:29:58,895
So these are all these crazy things that happen with Bitcoin Cash.

316
00:29:59,135 --> 00:30:02,335
Now, of course, Bitcoin SV and Bitcoin Gold.

317
00:30:03,575 --> 00:30:08,015
Bitcoin SV, that was a fork of BCH, so that was actually not a fork of BTC.

318
00:30:08,695 --> 00:30:14,575
And there's the fork of BCH and it kind of underlined this problem with the forks,
which is that you fork once.

319
00:30:14,735 --> 00:30:19,055
If you fork, it has to be like a permanent fix to some problem that can't be fixed
any other way.

320
00:30:19,095 --> 00:30:23,975
You know, so that's if you want to do the fork, you have to say there's some
problem.

321
00:30:24,735 --> 00:30:29,015
But once we do this one fork out of necessity, it'll be gone forever.

322
00:30:29,935 --> 00:30:35,655
But this is not what happened with Bitcoin Cash, because Bitcoin Cash was like, oh,
we hate all these Bitcoin Core developers.

323
00:30:35,935 --> 00:30:36,975
We'll fire them all.

324
00:30:37,735 --> 00:30:46,935
We'll switch to Bitcoin Cash developers who will be, you know, perfect angels and
everything will be everything will be Nirvana and it will be perfection at that
point.

325
00:30:48,255 --> 00:30:52,495
And and of course, what you know, what they got was just a new problem.

326
00:30:52,535 --> 00:30:53,655
And then they had the fork.

327
00:30:53,775 --> 00:31:00,375
There was a new developer dispute similar to the block size dispute in the social
dynamics of it all.

328
00:31:00,975 --> 00:31:03,295
And then they had to split away again.

329
00:31:04,295 --> 00:31:10,655
And so that was this problem with and then BCH later split two more times, I think.

330
00:31:10,695 --> 00:31:19,935
So that's the problem is when you when you don't fix the fundamental problem, which
is each time you hard fork and then all the reasons for ignoring the fork apply
double each time.

331
00:31:19,935 --> 00:31:27,255
You just think, well, this is just an endless list of people who can't like it's
like postponing the problem, not solving it.

332
00:31:27,255 --> 00:31:29,855
Right. And it's just and then you have just fewer people.

333
00:31:29,935 --> 00:31:41,455
So, yeah, you had some people disagree, the group splits, but now you have two
groups that are each smaller and eventually they're going to there's going to be
more disagreement.

334
00:31:41,975 --> 00:31:47,735
So using the hard fork as to handle disagreement is is rough.

335
00:31:47,735 --> 00:31:58,015
You have to use it to fix some some bigger thing where the idea of disagreement
itself in the future will not be as as likely.

336
00:31:58,455 --> 00:32:09,855
And then Bitcoin Gold was a fork of BTC, but I kind of thought of it as a joke or
maybe even in an attempt to discredit BCH, because this began this idea in Bitcoin
that, oh, you can have all these forks.

337
00:32:09,855 --> 00:32:11,975
And they were they were never really very big.

338
00:32:12,335 --> 00:32:20,495
So I think only Bitcoin Cash was the only like real fork that had like an actual
vision and said like they wanted to stand for something.

339
00:32:20,495 --> 00:32:30,015
They wanted to stand for being large block and they wanted to scale to eight billion
people and get lots of merchant adoption.

340
00:32:31,295 --> 00:32:40,495
So and then even Bitcoin Cash, I think, was actually very, very even though it had
all these problems and had a bad strategy and had bad execution, it was very
successful.

341
00:32:40,495 --> 00:32:45,575
I think it actually when when it finally debuted in November, it did make it to the
number two.

342
00:32:45,575 --> 00:32:48,655
It had flipped into Ethereum for one day on coin market cap.

343
00:32:48,655 --> 00:32:51,855
And that's the origin of Vitalik Buterin has a tweet which says, congrats on this.

344
00:32:51,855 --> 00:32:59,095
Seriously, it became a meme later, but it actually became number two.

345
00:32:59,095 --> 00:33:05,095
It was 15 percent of BTC market cap for like the first week.

346
00:33:05,295 --> 00:33:09,815
Then it started to slip away, which is which I that makes perfect sense.

347
00:33:09,815 --> 00:33:16,415
I think you have, you know, with the fork, the first year or the first two years are
like your big opportunity to make it.

348
00:33:16,415 --> 00:33:18,215
And if you don't, then you fail.

349
00:33:19,095 --> 00:33:21,655
And I think that's exactly what happened.

350
00:33:22,095 --> 00:33:24,935
But really, a 15 percent, a lot of people don't realize.

351
00:33:25,055 --> 00:33:29,935
So like Ethereum, I don't know the exact number right now and, of course, constantly
changing all the time.

352
00:33:30,135 --> 00:33:39,535
But Ethereum has always been less than, you know, there's a few times, but Ethereum
has always been less than a third or less than a quarter of BTC market cap.

353
00:33:39,535 --> 00:33:42,175
So you have BTC number one, then you have Ethereum.

354
00:33:42,295 --> 00:33:48,415
But if you cut BTC into four pieces, each of those pieces is bigger than Ethereum.

355
00:33:48,735 --> 00:33:57,615
So for Bitcoin Cash to open at 15 percent of BTC, that was enough to propel it into
the number two spot, actually.

356
00:33:57,895 --> 00:34:02,575
So now there's no guarantee that anything would happen the same way with this fork.

357
00:34:02,575 --> 00:34:06,135
But so you're looking it up now and seeing what's the lay of the land.

358
00:34:06,175 --> 00:34:10,815
I think that at the moment, Bitcoin is like five times bigger than Ethereum.

359
00:34:11,175 --> 00:34:12,855
Yeah. So that would be like 20 percent.

360
00:34:13,095 --> 00:34:18,335
So if theoretically, and I'm not saying that this would happen, but I'm just saying
you can imagine.

361
00:34:18,335 --> 00:34:33,575
So if Bitcoin Cash opened at 15-ish percent for like the first seven days, if
hypothetically the e-cash launched at 21 or 20.001 percent, which again, I'm not
saying, I'm just trying to give people an idea that it's within.

362
00:34:33,975 --> 00:34:36,055
This is like what happened in the past.

363
00:34:36,055 --> 00:34:41,175
And it's like one of the theoretical part that would make it number two on the whole
list.

364
00:34:41,175 --> 00:34:49,375
So that so I actually think Bitcoin Cash did pretty well, even though I was never a
supporter of Bitcoin Cash.

365
00:34:49,375 --> 00:34:50,695
I thought it wasn't a good idea.

366
00:34:50,935 --> 00:34:52,015
I thought it wasn't a great.

367
00:34:52,815 --> 00:34:55,175
It wasn't a good enough reason to use the hard fork.

368
00:34:55,175 --> 00:34:56,855
It didn't solve the problem permanently.

369
00:34:57,175 --> 00:35:06,575
It had a terrible, the overall goal of having large blocks on L1 was bad, bad
strategy, bad execution, bad name, bad timing, bad everything.

370
00:35:06,975 --> 00:35:12,175
So even though I think Bitcoin Cash didn't do very well, it ended up giving a lot of
people money.

371
00:35:12,175 --> 00:35:16,455
A lot of people sold the Bitcoin Cash and got more BTC.

372
00:35:16,455 --> 00:35:19,335
So that was a good bonus for Bitcoin holders.

373
00:35:19,775 --> 00:35:25,335
Yeah. So we're just coming to e-cash, I guess.

374
00:35:25,575 --> 00:35:27,535
So why are you proposing a fork now?

375
00:35:27,535 --> 00:35:30,295
What is the key idea behind the e-cash?

376
00:35:31,655 --> 00:35:35,855
Well, the reason for the fork is this idea of the derangements of Bitcoin.

377
00:35:35,855 --> 00:35:42,335
You see, if there was just some problem in BTC, you could just say this is the
problem and this is the solution.

378
00:35:42,335 --> 00:35:46,255
And then we would fix the problem and we would just go on with our lives.

379
00:35:46,495 --> 00:35:55,255
But the problem is that the BTC culture, I think, is having too difficult of a time
fixing these problems.

380
00:35:55,255 --> 00:36:02,815
And the lack of soft fork, the fact that we haven't had a soft fork since 2021,
whereas we used to do two a year.

381
00:36:04,455 --> 00:36:12,175
And the last two soft fork, Segwit and Taproot, were built to support Lightning,
which I think has been a mistake and a misallocation of resources.

382
00:36:12,535 --> 00:36:14,695
So it's really the problem of the culture.

383
00:36:14,695 --> 00:36:19,495
But the fork will be, you know, the L1 software will be almost exactly the same as
Bitcoin Core.

384
00:36:20,215 --> 00:36:28,295
And then we have this thing, the Core Untouched Soft Fork, this Q-SYF activator that
activates BIT300 and 301.

385
00:36:29,135 --> 00:36:32,455
And with this technique, we could activate more soft forks as well.

386
00:36:32,455 --> 00:36:35,855
We could add quantum to resistance signatures to L1.

387
00:36:35,855 --> 00:36:39,295
We could have OP-CAT, OP-VAULT to L1.

388
00:36:39,295 --> 00:36:40,935
So all that stuff would be great.

389
00:36:40,935 --> 00:36:43,575
And we would like to do that.

390
00:36:45,135 --> 00:36:48,615
All that stuff just lets you have more L2s.

391
00:36:48,615 --> 00:36:50,615
You have this competing space of L2s.

392
00:36:50,975 --> 00:37:00,175
So it's really to create, split the community into a new community, people who are
serious about scaling Bitcoin to eight billion people, solving Bitcoin's problems.

393
00:37:00,535 --> 00:37:03,455
I just think the BTC community is too big now.

394
00:37:04,775 --> 00:37:07,855
And it is too irrational.

395
00:37:08,455 --> 00:37:11,295
It's too much work to fix it from within.

396
00:37:11,295 --> 00:37:18,135
And it's better to start a competitor that either show it as a passive, you know,
it's rather passive.

397
00:37:18,655 --> 00:37:19,775
The community of Bitcoin.

398
00:37:20,095 --> 00:37:25,895
So we're just sitting and waiting till the price go to the whatever.

399
00:37:25,895 --> 00:37:27,615
Yeah, that's exactly right.

400
00:37:27,615 --> 00:37:34,975
And my idea is, my view is that it's going to take a lot of work to make Bitcoin a
success.

401
00:37:35,055 --> 00:37:38,015
But BTC, there's this idea that it's already perfect.

402
00:37:38,015 --> 00:37:40,775
It's already unimprovable.

403
00:37:41,255 --> 00:37:44,175
It's already, it should not change.

404
00:37:44,175 --> 00:37:45,255
A lot of people have this view.

405
00:37:45,255 --> 00:37:46,375
This is the Michael Saylor view.

406
00:37:46,375 --> 00:37:47,655
Many miners have this view.

407
00:37:47,655 --> 00:37:49,735
They say Bitcoin shouldn't change at all.

408
00:37:52,295 --> 00:37:54,295
The soft fork, of course, is not really a change.

409
00:37:54,295 --> 00:37:55,615
You know, people figured that out already.

410
00:37:55,615 --> 00:38:04,735
The soft fork is a way of keeping the old protocol and adding a new one right next
to it and then having them all in the series cooperate with each other.

411
00:38:04,735 --> 00:38:07,575
So actually, the soft fork is not not a change to the protocol.

412
00:38:07,575 --> 00:38:12,695
It's everything good about a change, but minus all of the problems with the change.

413
00:38:13,055 --> 00:38:15,575
So people have already figured that out in 2012.

414
00:38:16,175 --> 00:38:23,935
So I just think, you know, things are actually not as good as they could be in
Bitcoin.

415
00:38:23,935 --> 00:38:29,815
You know, there's lots of different ideas for better privacy, better scalability,
better user experience.

416
00:38:30,375 --> 00:38:43,695
And it's just we live in an environment where those ideas can't come into existence
in BTC anywhere near as easily enough as they should.

417
00:38:44,295 --> 00:38:48,775
So I think that is not good.

418
00:38:49,255 --> 00:38:55,095
And I think it's actually we don't realize how big of a risk we're taking.

419
00:38:55,095 --> 00:38:56,575
So it's just, you know, this is just a thing.

420
00:38:56,575 --> 00:39:05,895
The fork is not, you know, it's in one sense, I think it's quite dramatic because
I'm saying like BTC is kind of maybe doomed and we need to escape onto this life
raft.

421
00:39:06,135 --> 00:39:15,455
But in another sense, it's really not that weird at all, because the creating a
fork, it's not like it, you know, it's not really that expensive or that much work.

422
00:39:15,455 --> 00:39:18,255
You have to sure you have to get some people together.

423
00:39:18,255 --> 00:39:21,775
You have to get like, you know, the domain name and stuff like that.

424
00:39:22,255 --> 00:39:25,735
But it's not actually that expensive to create the fork.

425
00:39:26,135 --> 00:39:32,375
If I'm wrong, all this stuff will go away and no one will really be affected that
much other than that.

426
00:39:32,375 --> 00:39:34,415
Everyone got free e-cash.

427
00:39:34,895 --> 00:39:38,095
So if I'm wrong, the costs are very low.

428
00:39:39,495 --> 00:39:45,055
But if I'm right, then I'll basically rescue the project, the Bitcoin project.

429
00:39:46,175 --> 00:39:48,735
So it's as a matter of cost benefit.

430
00:39:48,735 --> 00:39:53,215
It's a it's very, very, very reasonable thing to do because the costs are pretty
low.

431
00:39:53,215 --> 00:39:55,015
The benefits are enormous.

432
00:39:55,495 --> 00:40:00,135
And even if it's a failure, we'll learn a lot in the process.

433
00:40:00,135 --> 00:40:04,255
We'll learn about like how what happens with hard forks.

434
00:40:04,255 --> 00:40:06,295
We'll learn about the drive chain L2.

435
00:40:06,295 --> 00:40:08,535
Like, does it work? Is it popular?

436
00:40:09,775 --> 00:40:16,455
So it's, you know, it's quite a I think it's quite a good idea and more people
should do it.

437
00:40:16,455 --> 00:40:19,895
But I'm not sure if people, you know, I'm not sure if other people see it that way.

438
00:40:20,895 --> 00:40:29,255
And I see a lot of questions in the comments about the name that there is e-cash
already.

439
00:40:29,255 --> 00:40:34,655
So how do you find the name e-cash and why e-cash?

440
00:40:34,655 --> 00:40:41,175
Well, there is a terrible project that's like ranked like one hundred and seventy
five or something.

441
00:40:41,175 --> 00:40:48,095
And it only has the market cap of the project is much less than like what many
Bitcoin companies like.

442
00:40:48,615 --> 00:40:51,295
Like race like Blockstream raised like two hundred million dollars.

443
00:40:51,295 --> 00:40:57,695
But the whole market cap of the ECX or XCC or whatever, the OMRI.

444
00:41:00,335 --> 00:41:01,775
So that one is very, very small.

445
00:41:01,775 --> 00:41:07,295
And then so e-cash.com and e-cash.org and e-cash.net, all the domains were
available.

446
00:41:07,295 --> 00:41:08,895
So I think it's hard.

447
00:41:09,775 --> 00:41:15,335
You don't want to have any confusion over the name and you don't want to have two
projects sharing a name.

448
00:41:15,895 --> 00:41:25,815
But at the same time, I don't think that just because someone somewhere used the
name once, that automatically gives them a monopoly over it until the end of time.

449
00:41:25,815 --> 00:41:28,495
Because nothing would you would never be able to start anything that way.

450
00:41:29,175 --> 00:41:40,815
You know what I mean? Like what if you wanted to start Google and they said, well,
hey, that already that's already that word is already used for a mathematic term for
a quantity.

451
00:41:40,855 --> 00:41:44,175
Or even if, you know, someone somebody this is you discover somewhere that someone.

452
00:41:44,175 --> 00:41:45,735
So so I'm not really worried about that.

453
00:41:45,735 --> 00:41:52,015
I think the e-cash.com will be way more than enough to fix the brand confusion.

454
00:41:52,455 --> 00:42:04,375
And I think this project will launch nowhere near the I mean, it's already being
pre-traded by people at around between like thirty five and three hundred and fifty
dollars.

455
00:42:04,935 --> 00:42:10,095
So that would put it like nowhere near the other e-cash.

456
00:42:10,095 --> 00:42:12,135
There's actually a lot of things named e-cash, of course.

457
00:42:13,095 --> 00:42:16,575
So like the Fediment is an e-cash version.

458
00:42:16,575 --> 00:42:18,055
There's this Bitcoin project.

459
00:42:19,295 --> 00:42:22,575
This is a custodial cashew e-cash.

460
00:42:22,975 --> 00:42:25,935
So it's actually just like I see it kind of as more of a generic name.

461
00:42:25,935 --> 00:42:29,415
In fact, you have an email, you have an e-scooter or something like that.

462
00:42:30,895 --> 00:42:36,895
And I guess the first draft of Satoshi's white paper was called e-cash.pdf.

463
00:42:37,535 --> 00:42:38,695
Yeah, right.

464
00:42:40,175 --> 00:42:43,855
So that will be a great story for you.

465
00:42:43,855 --> 00:42:46,855
So you choose this name because of Satoshi's first drive.

466
00:42:47,255 --> 00:42:48,095
So the real.

467
00:42:48,295 --> 00:42:54,615
Well, yeah, you know, to me, it was just the e-cash.com was available and not very
expensive.

468
00:42:54,775 --> 00:42:57,135
So I thought if anyone was serious, you know what I mean?

469
00:42:57,135 --> 00:42:59,495
Like if these other projects were serious about.

470
00:43:00,695 --> 00:43:05,695
They really, really love the name e-cash, you know what I mean, because anyone can
just do some hobby project.

471
00:43:06,615 --> 00:43:09,535
And just but like, why didn't they buy the e-cash.com?

472
00:43:09,655 --> 00:43:16,935
It had been available for sale for like, I don't know exactly how long, but, you
know, it was just like sort of there.

473
00:43:16,935 --> 00:43:21,255
So I thought that all of these projects are not they're not very serious about, you
know what I mean?

474
00:43:21,255 --> 00:43:23,775
Because anyone can just pick a name and just say, oh, you know.

475
00:43:25,575 --> 00:43:31,455
So if I understood you correctly, you want not to complicate the things to make it
easy.

476
00:43:31,655 --> 00:43:36,455
So if there is if there is possibility to make a fork, let's do it.

477
00:43:36,815 --> 00:43:39,495
If it fix some problems of Bitcoin, great.

478
00:43:39,575 --> 00:43:47,575
If it's like a failure, OK, we will rethink it, make an analysis, homework and do it
again.

479
00:43:47,695 --> 00:43:49,455
Right. That's right.

480
00:43:50,895 --> 00:43:56,735
That's cool, I guess. People should think more in terms of expected value and not
about the likelihood of success.

481
00:43:56,855 --> 00:44:04,695
You know, you got to think like, oh, what if there is, you know, what if there's
some kind of military operation where you could assassinate?

482
00:44:05,015 --> 00:44:06,655
Well, I don't know. We're going to get this like tripped.

483
00:44:06,655 --> 00:44:08,455
I was going to assassinate Vladimir Putin or something.

484
00:44:08,455 --> 00:44:11,495
This is going to get like a trip by all the AI scanners or something.

485
00:44:11,655 --> 00:44:17,855
But the point is, you have some desperate maneuver that might end the war, but it
has only a two percent chance of succeeding.

486
00:44:18,575 --> 00:44:21,295
And it's like, well, you know, it kind of depends on how expensive it is.

487
00:44:21,895 --> 00:44:23,055
I'm fucking bet on it.

488
00:44:23,215 --> 00:44:30,055
Yeah, right. So it's kind of like and then when you try to find a Bitcoin block,
it's like you you're mining.

489
00:44:30,175 --> 00:44:33,655
Each individual mining attempt is very unlikely to hit the block.

490
00:44:33,655 --> 00:44:40,215
But, you know, it's just there's the cheap, the basic and do many, many attempts per
second.

491
00:44:40,215 --> 00:44:42,215
And so so that's the rational thing.

492
00:44:42,775 --> 00:44:52,615
It's kind of like, hey, yeah, it's kind of like, you know, if you're trying to ask
out a girl or any other thing like we were talking before about, you're kind of
like, hey, we'll just try any.

493
00:44:53,535 --> 00:44:58,855
We're on board for trying any wacky thing that might might work, you know, to help
us solve our problem.

494
00:44:58,855 --> 00:45:00,895
And then it turns out it's problem solved.

495
00:45:00,895 --> 00:45:05,655
So. So, yeah, it's kind of like how much does it cost?

496
00:45:05,655 --> 00:45:08,695
Benefit is really the lens that you should look at it through.

497
00:45:08,695 --> 00:45:15,175
It's like, what does it really cost to launch the new project if the project will
almost certainly fail if it doesn't do anything?

498
00:45:15,215 --> 00:45:16,975
That was like Bitcoin, gold, Bitcoin, diamond.

499
00:45:16,975 --> 00:45:18,615
Like they didn't really do anything.

500
00:45:18,815 --> 00:45:22,015
They said that they did, but it wasn't very sincere.

501
00:45:22,015 --> 00:45:28,695
They were just sort of saying, oh, well, this is a this is a version of Bitcoin that
has SHA-3 or something.

502
00:45:28,695 --> 00:45:30,375
You know, these are like not very.

503
00:45:31,775 --> 00:45:44,615
Useful, but if you're right about, you know, if I'm right about these problems in
BTC, then we have a long history in BTC of of dissatisfaction with various things.

504
00:45:44,615 --> 00:45:53,575
So we have this whole podcast industrial complex that was shilling cold card and
stuff like that instead of working on OPVAL, instead of working on multisig.

505
00:45:53,775 --> 00:46:02,735
So it just means that over time the problems will build up and it means over time as
the competitors, you know, you have USDT on Tron or you have Ethereum.

506
00:46:02,735 --> 00:46:04,855
The competitors will be working hard every day.

507
00:46:05,495 --> 00:46:07,015
BTC will be slacking off.

508
00:46:07,255 --> 00:46:15,975
So over time, there will be this big difference between the state of what the state
of the art can do, what the industry can do and what the.

509
00:46:17,495 --> 00:46:24,935
And what BTC can do, and eventually it will just become too embarrassing to sustain
and they'll have to be a change of some kind.

510
00:46:25,935 --> 00:46:38,535
OK, I want to dive deeply in e-cash, so you're talking about seven sidechains at
fork, so five already live and two in progress.

511
00:46:38,935 --> 00:46:41,975
Let's talk about each of them like in short.

512
00:46:42,495 --> 00:46:44,735
So we have Thunder, right?

513
00:46:44,735 --> 00:46:47,575
It's a high throughout payments sidechain.

514
00:46:47,575 --> 00:46:52,215
So it's the decision for payments, like payment solution, right?

515
00:46:52,375 --> 00:46:53,975
That's right. And you can.

516
00:46:53,975 --> 00:46:58,975
So one interesting thing about Thunder is we have tested it to an enormous volume of
transactions.

517
00:46:58,975 --> 00:47:04,495
And we had last summer, we had a contest to improve the performance.

518
00:47:04,495 --> 00:47:20,695
And part of the contest was the computer would generate like an enormous number of
transactions, connect these blocks, then disconnect them and then reconnect them
again and time the software to see how quickly it can process the incoming blocks,
the incoming transactions.

519
00:47:20,815 --> 00:47:31,415
And so what's important about this is the Lightning Network in BTC, they couldn't
even do a test like this because there is no way to process those that many.

520
00:47:31,415 --> 00:47:35,135
There's no way to onboard that many people to the Lightning Network at all, let
alone.

521
00:47:35,135 --> 00:47:39,775
But we have it in like a reproducible GitHub test that anyone could run.

522
00:47:39,775 --> 00:47:43,535
Anyone can just click on onto GitHub and you can see the test for yourself.

523
00:47:43,535 --> 00:47:47,055
You can see everything about it, how it was made and what it does.

524
00:47:47,055 --> 00:47:55,575
And so we've already tested it to something that the existing L2s on BTC can't even
do.

525
00:47:55,575 --> 00:48:04,415
So that by itself is an extremely significant innovation, but that's really just one
out of a handful.

526
00:48:04,415 --> 00:48:09,855
So but just that by itself is this is and all this is this is scaling and onboarding
eight billion people.

527
00:48:09,855 --> 00:48:11,855
There's no liquidity problems like with Lightning.

528
00:48:11,855 --> 00:48:29,375
There's no onboarding problem with like with Lightning, there's no, you know, you
need to refresh the channel, there's no idea of HTLC, so there's no sensitivity to
the L1 fee rate, you don't have to be online in order to receive money, you don't
have to sign in order to receive money, so it's much, much better.

529
00:48:29,375 --> 00:48:36,375
The transaction fees are automatically aggregated and paid down to the L1 miners, so
it also addresses security budget.

530
00:48:36,375 --> 00:48:46,375
So so all this by itself, you know, even if again, even if there's a 2% chance that
I'm right about this, it would make it a very significant invention for BTC.

531
00:48:46,375 --> 00:48:48,375
And it's gone much further than all this other stuff.

532
00:48:48,375 --> 00:49:12,375
You have stuff like ARK, or, you know, or whatever, Fediment or whatever, where it's
kind of like that stuff is very halfheartedly endorsed, and I think has less than 2%
chance of being successful, whereas this has kind of already been tested, this is
only missing like, you know, a few components to go viral among users and be adopted
in a serious way.

533
00:49:13,375 --> 00:49:23,375
So I think it's, I like the situation with Peter Todd, when you said just show me
where I'm wrong.

534
00:49:23,375 --> 00:49:29,375
So all the guys who are watching this stream can go to ecash.com slash sidechains.

535
00:49:29,375 --> 00:49:36,375
And there are links to GitHub, where you can check it and test it and whatever.

536
00:49:36,375 --> 00:49:44,375
So if I understood you correctly, the security part is z-site, right?

537
00:49:44,375 --> 00:49:47,375
It's modelled on Zcash, right?

538
00:49:47,375 --> 00:49:48,375
That's right.

539
00:49:48,375 --> 00:49:49,375
Yeah.

540
00:49:49,375 --> 00:49:57,375
So that Zcash is, of course, an altcoin, where you get these Z addresses, and they
blind, they hide the sender, the receiver and the amount.

541
00:49:58,246 --> 00:50:25,246
So this is really, really good privacy. And you can even reuse the Z address,
because it hides the sender, the receiver and the amount. So it doesn't matter that
you can post the same address, you don't have to give people a new address. And
z-site is just the Zcash orchard crate as an L2 of Bitcoin, you know, basically. So
it just says, you know, everything that all this cool stuff that they have been
working on for years, and they're just going to hide it. And it's really, really
cool.

542
00:50:25,246 --> 00:50:26,246
As a Bitcoiner, we could have that. And that would be much better than CoinJoin.
CoinJoin is not very good. You only mix with four people each time. You have to pay
the on-chain fee on L1 each time. They have to have like, has to have like a
coordinator, there's only you can only do it in certain amounts, because you have to
have be present with other users. And we're in the Zcash, z-site idea, everyone goes
into the same dark pool, and then they come out at the

543
00:50:55,246 --> 00:51:08,966
same. So the anonymity set is way bigger. It's much easier to use. So again, I think
it's just it's much better than the state of the art in BTC, which is CoinJoin,
which most people don't even use.

544
00:51:09,566 --> 00:51:16,206
So you just took the idea that you liked and that worked well and added to sidechain
z-site, right?

545
00:51:16,286 --> 00:51:29,726
Right. I don't necessarily want to be saying, oh, which L2s should exist. I kind of
want to say, OK, this is stuff that other people like, you know, the altcoin, the
Zcash altcoin, they've worked a lot on it. So we'll just we'll just borrow that.

546
00:51:29,726 --> 00:51:39,566
So this is more of the idea that I was talking about at the beginning, where because
it's all open source, you would think people would just take the best stuff. So
that's kind of getting back to that.

547
00:51:40,446 --> 00:51:50,846
Which means that you can add in the future some more stuff than will possibly in
need for a cash and add additional sidechains, right?

548
00:51:51,006 --> 00:52:05,446
Yeah, it's a very good point, because it's my view that just having the option to
add a new L2, that is actually much, much more important than any individual L2. So
the fact that you can recover from a situation where the developers are bad.

549
00:52:05,766 --> 00:52:13,726
This is the Bitcoin Cash problem in a way, because they were thinking, according to
the Bitcoin Cash people, Bitcoin Core developers aren't good, so we need new ones.

550
00:52:13,726 --> 00:52:17,726
But the problem is the ones that they got, they also didn't like, and then they had
to get rid of them again and again.

551
00:52:18,046 --> 00:52:32,366
But with this idea, I'm saying, listen, you keep L1 as Bitcoin Core, L2 are mostly
just altcoins that are good, some custom made ones that are variants of also like,
for example, Bitnames is very similar to Namecoin, but not quite the same.

552
00:52:32,806 --> 00:52:44,926
But then you have, even if all of these are bad, even if everyone, all the
developers are terrible, well, you can always just launch a new L2, and the coins
convert at the one to one rate.

553
00:52:44,926 --> 00:52:54,246
So it's like going to an ATM or something and taking $20 out of your bank account
and getting $20 worth of cash, or whatever the case may be.

554
00:52:56,646 --> 00:52:57,766
So yeah, it's great.

555
00:52:58,086 --> 00:53:03,806
So it's like Thunder and Zebra and playing Bitnames, it's different teams, right?

556
00:53:03,806 --> 00:53:06,686
And they can be competition between them.

557
00:53:06,686 --> 00:53:12,286
So if you don't like some L2, they can be replaced by some better guys, right?

558
00:53:12,286 --> 00:53:14,326
Those three happen to be very similar.

559
00:53:14,326 --> 00:53:16,886
And all, well, actually, no, you're right.

560
00:53:16,886 --> 00:53:18,166
Yeah, those are different.

561
00:53:18,526 --> 00:53:21,406
Yeah. So yeah, so actually, those, yeah, you have no idea.

562
00:53:21,406 --> 00:53:25,206
Maybe those people hate each other, or maybe they don't.

563
00:53:25,326 --> 00:53:30,966
What I was trying to say is that those are all based on the Rust, we had like a Rust
like template.

564
00:53:30,966 --> 00:53:37,606
And at one point, we had a bunch of different sidechain templates, but over time,
one of them came to dominate.

565
00:53:39,246 --> 00:53:42,966
But there are actually some additional sidechains proposed by other people.

566
00:53:42,966 --> 00:53:47,926
So someone who has nothing to do with me, they proposed it, again, Elements Plus.

567
00:53:47,926 --> 00:53:51,766
So Blockstream has this Elements blockchain that they made.

568
00:53:52,166 --> 00:53:58,846
And we added like, or I suggested that he add, it had Opcat already, it had a bunch
of other stuff.

569
00:53:58,846 --> 00:54:00,566
I said, you could add CTV to that.

570
00:54:00,566 --> 00:54:02,206
And you could call it Elements Plus.

571
00:54:02,206 --> 00:54:10,406
So there's Elements Plus, I don't know if it is activated on the new test dry run
network.

572
00:54:10,406 --> 00:54:18,566
But so then, and then there's a few people have proposed other ones in addition to
the ones that we have.

573
00:54:18,606 --> 00:54:24,086
And so I'm pretty sure there'll be at least three more, some Elements Plus one, some
EVM one,

574
00:54:24,086 --> 00:54:27,166
and then someone that has a bunch of stuff that I forgot how to pronounce.

575
00:54:27,166 --> 00:54:31,206
But it's some kind of, they're very impressed with themselves, whatever it is.

576
00:54:31,206 --> 00:54:36,006
So there's at least three more coming from other people.

577
00:54:37,926 --> 00:54:40,726
And there could, who knows, there could be more.

578
00:54:40,726 --> 00:54:43,366
And some of them will probably be terrible, and some will be great.

579
00:54:43,366 --> 00:54:44,486
And that's fine.

580
00:54:44,486 --> 00:54:47,566
But it's a rather scalable system, I guess.

581
00:54:47,806 --> 00:54:50,246
I want to reply to this comment.

582
00:54:50,246 --> 00:54:57,366
Z-site, it's the name of sidechain, but Zebra, it's the name of the team who make
it.

583
00:54:57,366 --> 00:55:00,046
So the third is BitNames.

584
00:55:00,046 --> 00:55:03,726
It's for decentralized identity and DNS.

585
00:55:03,726 --> 00:55:06,886
It's the thing that was not available in Bitcoin.

586
00:55:06,886 --> 00:55:09,166
So it's in use now.

587
00:55:09,166 --> 00:55:15,526
There was originally this project Namecoin that was co-invented by Satoshi back in
the year 2010.

588
00:55:15,566 --> 00:55:19,806
And this always had a lot of potential, but for some reason, it was never developed.

589
00:55:19,806 --> 00:55:20,846
And I don't know why.

590
00:55:20,846 --> 00:55:26,206
But it's a very cool idea, because it says just as you have this scarce 21 million
coins,

591
00:55:26,206 --> 00:55:33,406
you could have scarce names someone could own, you know, encrypted, that bit or
whatever.

592
00:55:33,406 --> 00:55:40,966
And why have ICANN, why have the ICANN registrar system,

593
00:55:40,966 --> 00:55:43,326
where you have to pay with maybe a credit card,

594
00:55:43,326 --> 00:55:47,966
and they can take the domain, the government can seize the domain from you.

595
00:55:47,966 --> 00:55:51,246
When instead we can have this cypherpuck thing, it's better in every single way.

596
00:55:51,246 --> 00:55:55,566
It's like you own the name permanently, you don't rent the name, you own the name
permanently.

597
00:55:55,566 --> 00:55:57,046
It can never be seized.

598
00:55:57,046 --> 00:56:00,166
You own it anonymously, cryptographically.

599
00:56:00,166 --> 00:56:05,326
We also, we live in a world where people, you know, are worried about being like
de-platformed.

600
00:56:05,326 --> 00:56:11,526
You know, you could get kicked off of YouTube, or you could get kicked off of X or
whatever.

601
00:56:11,526 --> 00:56:12,806
People really worry about that.

602
00:56:12,806 --> 00:56:17,526
So you don't have a very strong property right to the name.

603
00:56:17,526 --> 00:56:18,926
But with this, you would.

604
00:56:18,926 --> 00:56:22,166
And with this, you know, you can have the computer talk under the hood and say,

605
00:56:22,166 --> 00:56:24,806
okay, here's, look me up on BitNames.

606
00:56:24,806 --> 00:56:30,526
This is my telegram, this is my phone number, this is my email, this is my PGP key,

607
00:56:30,526 --> 00:56:34,486
this is my website, this is my personal website, this is my Onion website.

608
00:56:34,486 --> 00:56:36,206
So the potential is really enormous.

609
00:56:36,206 --> 00:56:41,766
This is my Noster, this is my Twitter, this is my Instagram.

610
00:56:41,806 --> 00:56:49,406
So the potential is enormous for the, to have a strong property right to your name.

611
00:56:49,406 --> 00:56:54,446
And yeah, I think this could eventually fix spam, this could eventually fix all
logging in.

612
00:56:54,446 --> 00:57:00,366
Because you try to log in, they would just say, instead of you logging into their
system,

613
00:57:00,366 --> 00:57:03,326
you would go to log in and they would just look you up in BitNames.

614
00:57:03,326 --> 00:57:05,766
And they would send you some kind of encrypted thing and you'd hit the button and
say,

615
00:57:05,766 --> 00:57:07,886
oh, this is him.

616
00:57:07,886 --> 00:57:08,406
And so.

617
00:57:08,446 --> 00:57:10,006
It's not a new idea.

618
00:57:10,006 --> 00:57:17,046
I mean, the whole identity through all the internet, but maybe it will work.

619
00:57:17,046 --> 00:57:17,406
Right.

620
00:57:17,406 --> 00:57:19,086
I completely agree with you that.

621
00:57:19,086 --> 00:57:21,966
So again, it's like Namecoin, you know, it was tried.

622
00:57:21,966 --> 00:57:25,926
There was also like, there's like other stuff, Handshake and these other things
there.

623
00:57:25,926 --> 00:57:27,446
They're very interesting.

624
00:57:27,446 --> 00:57:30,126
And it's been tried a few times.

625
00:57:30,126 --> 00:57:36,086
Again, the story I'm trying to pitch is that, you know, eCash would get to 8 billion
people.

626
00:57:36,086 --> 00:57:38,566
So I was like, I would have felt bad to not have it.

627
00:57:38,566 --> 00:57:42,086
But I actually think there are BitNames a little bit better than some of the other,

628
00:57:42,086 --> 00:57:45,046
the predecessors as well.

629
00:57:45,046 --> 00:57:49,646
So, but it's just there and people are interested in, and I think it will have.

630
00:57:49,646 --> 00:57:54,086
For example, I think it's, you know, if we go all the way back to that Silk Road
case of the online

631
00:57:54,086 --> 00:57:59,486
drug site, they have constantly, because they have to have the onion link,

632
00:57:59,486 --> 00:58:02,006
they constantly have phishing problems.

633
00:58:02,006 --> 00:58:08,806
So with the, just to visit it, you have to type the giant garbled, you have to find
the link,

634
00:58:08,806 --> 00:58:12,926
which is a bunch of nonsensical characters.

635
00:58:12,926 --> 00:58:15,006
And then there's people always imitating them to steal.

636
00:58:15,006 --> 00:58:16,766
They say, oh, deposit coins here.

637
00:58:16,766 --> 00:58:18,246
So this is a very interesting project.

638
00:58:18,246 --> 00:58:23,606
I have a couple of friends who researched these darknet markets that I made after
the article.

639
00:58:23,606 --> 00:58:25,086
I became very interested in it.

640
00:58:25,086 --> 00:58:27,206
So there's huge phishing problem.

641
00:58:27,206 --> 00:58:30,126
There's a huge impersonation problem.

642
00:58:30,126 --> 00:58:32,726
When people go to the site, they typically, I don't know if it, like,

643
00:58:32,726 --> 00:58:38,246
still works this way or something, but you typically are asked to provide your PGP
key

644
00:58:38,246 --> 00:58:42,366
and the merchant's key, and you're supposed to do everything encrypted so that even
the site doesn't

645
00:58:42,366 --> 00:58:45,646
know, like, what address you want stuff shipped to and things like that.

646
00:58:45,646 --> 00:58:53,726
So a lot of this stuff could be more easily automated, you know, with something like
a bitname.

647
00:58:53,726 --> 00:58:58,886
So you just own the name and you have, then you have your real name and then you
have your alt name.

648
00:58:58,886 --> 00:59:05,206
You know, like how Neo in the Matrix, he's Mr. Anderson in the real world,

649
00:59:05,206 --> 00:59:07,886
but then he's Neo when he's the hacker, you know.

650
00:59:07,886 --> 00:59:13,366
So it's like you have your other name, and your other name is doing all the shady
stuff,

651
00:59:13,366 --> 00:59:16,926
and then your regular name is respectable.

652
00:59:16,926 --> 00:59:18,966
Sure.

653
00:59:18,966 --> 00:59:23,246
I reply, we will talk about the airdrop and the wallet.

654
00:59:23,246 --> 00:59:26,086
So we will ask Paul about that a bit later.

655
00:59:26,086 --> 00:59:29,486
Now I want to continue diving into the fork.

656
00:59:29,486 --> 00:59:32,246
So the next sidechain is BitAssets.

657
00:59:32,246 --> 00:59:35,406
It's for NFTs and ERC-20 style tokens.

658
00:59:35,406 --> 00:59:41,166
So it's like an answer to Ordinals and all this BRC-20 stuff, right?

659
00:59:41,166 --> 00:59:50,846
Because even for me, not a very technical guy, so the problems of BRC and Ordinals
are obvious.

660
00:59:50,846 --> 00:59:52,886
It's like, it's not working correct.

661
00:59:52,886 --> 00:59:57,446
So what's different in BitAssets?

662
00:59:57,446 --> 00:59:58,486
Well, I think it's just better.

663
00:59:58,486 --> 01:00:04,406
First of all, it's just more organized and tidier to move this stuff off of L1 onto
an L2,

664
01:00:04,406 --> 01:00:09,806
where you can kind of play, it's like a playground and you can do whatever you want
over there.

665
01:00:09,806 --> 01:00:12,326
And we want it to be easy for people to just make.

666
01:00:12,326 --> 01:00:16,806
I think the easier it is for people to just make new stuff, the more fun they will
have,

667
01:00:16,806 --> 01:00:19,406
but also the more they'll kind of just get it out of their system.

668
01:00:19,406 --> 01:00:21,286
You know, they can do it over there.

669
01:00:21,286 --> 01:00:23,646
And, you know, a lot of this stuff is legitimate.

670
01:00:23,646 --> 01:00:31,686
So like the NFTs and stuff, a lot of that is kind of, you know, kind of strange or
not,

671
01:00:31,686 --> 01:00:37,846
it's not very useful, but sometimes it is because, you know, sometimes people need
to issue,

672
01:00:37,846 --> 01:00:42,766
like, for example, stock in a company, equity in a company.

673
01:00:42,766 --> 01:00:46,446
And that you need, it's actually quite relevant to figure out, okay,

674
01:00:46,446 --> 01:00:48,126
how much total stock has been issued.

675
01:00:48,126 --> 01:00:52,886
This is a service that the U.S. government offers, actually.

676
01:00:52,886 --> 01:00:56,206
You go to Delaware, it's, I don't know if it's the federal guy, I don't know exactly
how it works.

677
01:00:56,206 --> 01:01:02,926
Most, in America, most of the corporations are registered in Delaware for an obscure
historical reason.

678
01:01:02,926 --> 01:01:07,206
But you can, like, go online and look up, like, oh, how many shares of stock are you
seeing?

679
01:01:07,206 --> 01:01:12,006
So that when you buy a share, you know what percentage you have.

680
01:01:12,006 --> 01:01:16,926
You have to register and you have to pay hundreds of dollars per year for this
thing.

681
01:01:16,926 --> 01:01:23,646
There's also, you know, you got to keep in mind that stablecoins, which are really,
really big,

682
01:01:23,646 --> 01:01:27,086
that's basically, you know, just an NFT that's backed by someone, you know,

683
01:01:27,086 --> 01:01:34,726
that's just, you issue these units and then Tether says that they will, you can
redeem.

684
01:01:34,726 --> 01:01:36,406
So it's a backed thing.

685
01:01:36,406 --> 01:01:39,006
So that's a huge use case.

686
01:01:39,006 --> 01:01:43,006
And so we would be foolish if we didn't support it.

687
01:01:43,006 --> 01:01:51,926
Is it correct that you can, like, in future start USDT, for example, on BitAssets?

688
01:01:51,926 --> 01:01:52,766
Oh, yeah, certainly.

689
01:01:52,766 --> 01:01:59,086
And in fact, I think because we don't even want to wait for them, someone has cooked
up,

690
01:01:59,086 --> 01:02:04,566
they've created some kind of thing where it's like a USDT underscore D or something,

691
01:02:04,566 --> 01:02:13,006
where basically you offer it on BitAssets and then it's redeemable in USDT
cryptographically.

692
01:02:13,006 --> 01:02:14,606
So it's just like kind of one.

693
01:02:14,606 --> 01:02:17,326
So that's like you hit the ground running.

694
01:02:17,326 --> 01:02:18,126
Wrapped USDT.

695
01:02:18,126 --> 01:02:19,406
Exactly, right.

696
01:02:19,406 --> 01:02:25,206
So then you have that and then you don't have to wait for USDT, although probably
when the real USDT

697
01:02:25,206 --> 01:02:28,446
shows up over there, it will be pretty popular.

698
01:02:28,446 --> 01:02:34,286
And BitAssets can also be home for a new wave of meme coins, right?

699
01:02:34,286 --> 01:02:34,726
Yes.

700
01:02:34,726 --> 01:02:36,126
Whatever.

701
01:02:36,126 --> 01:02:37,486
Okay.

702
01:02:37,486 --> 01:02:40,766
So Photon, it's like a bit harder thing.

703
01:02:40,766 --> 01:02:42,006
So what is that?

704
01:02:42,006 --> 01:02:44,046
Quantum resistance sidechain.

705
01:02:44,046 --> 01:02:45,806
Well, it's very similar to...

706
01:02:45,806 --> 01:02:50,486
All it is, is I was thinking, you know, we have this quantum debate.

707
01:02:50,486 --> 01:02:56,766
Everyone's worried about a quantum computer that can sign away your funds even if
you didn't give it

708
01:02:56,766 --> 01:03:03,806
the private key because it can just guess a trillion passwords and things at once
using its quantum technology.

709
01:03:03,806 --> 01:03:13,286
So the quantum debate was getting really big and we were like, well, we can just
ship a version that has

710
01:03:13,286 --> 01:03:16,446
quantum resistance signature options.

711
01:03:16,446 --> 01:03:22,126
And I was also thinking we would do separately from this L2 back on L1 with the
second QSYF.

712
01:03:22,126 --> 01:03:25,526
We have one in the works to do it on L1.

713
01:03:25,526 --> 01:03:31,366
I'm not sure if either of these will actually help people, but I was hoping it would
at least move the

714
01:03:31,366 --> 01:03:36,886
debate forward a little bit because, you know, with quantum, it's very abstract and
it's kind of like, what should we do?

715
01:03:36,886 --> 01:03:37,926
And then people bike shed.

716
01:03:37,926 --> 01:03:43,526
You know, they argue over these little details of like, oh, should we do this one or
this other one or this?

717
01:03:43,526 --> 01:03:47,486
So I thought we'll put one, we'll just put one out and just show people this is how
easy it is.

718
01:03:47,486 --> 01:03:48,846
You just put one out.

719
01:03:48,846 --> 01:03:55,646
People can kind of practice and see how they like these signatures and see if they
like the performance.

720
01:03:55,646 --> 01:04:05,006
It may help eventually Bitcoin decide what it wants to do on L1 or it may be very
popular if people decide that they really trust the drive

721
01:04:05,006 --> 01:04:08,526
chain technology a lot and they're really worried about quantum resistant
signatures.

722
01:04:08,526 --> 01:04:16,486
They could say, hey, listen, I'm keeping all my money in a quantum resistant
signature because I'm very worried about quantum.

723
01:04:16,486 --> 01:04:21,086
If people think that, then that L2 photon would be for them.

724
01:04:22,086 --> 01:04:33,086
So it's like a hedge against the future problems of like, well, again, it's easy to
just kind of throw it out and we just staple in some quantum resistant signatures.

725
01:04:33,086 --> 01:04:41,406
Maybe they are very slow or maybe they consume many bytes, but hey, you can just
ship something out and say, listen, here's a thing.

726
01:04:41,406 --> 01:04:47,686
So and then we can that's a lot better than just talking about it, which is what a
lot of people are doing.

727
01:04:47,686 --> 01:04:50,166
We just say, hey, you have choice, right?

728
01:04:50,446 --> 01:04:52,246
You can use it or not use it.

729
01:04:52,246 --> 01:04:59,406
If your security is number one for you, so you can pay like more and spend more time
on that.

730
01:05:00,006 --> 01:05:01,486
That's exactly right.

731
01:05:01,486 --> 01:05:05,926
OK, got it. We have Truthcoin and Coinshift.

732
01:05:05,926 --> 01:05:08,646
It's like prediction market and decentralized exchange.

733
01:05:09,206 --> 01:05:12,046
And it's obvious because market needs it.

734
01:05:13,206 --> 01:05:17,686
Yeah, I was a huge prediction market guy for a really long time.

735
01:05:17,686 --> 01:05:21,486
In fact, in 2013, I was arguing we should bring prediction markets to Bitcoin.

736
01:05:21,486 --> 01:05:29,846
So I have a different site, BitcoinHiveMind.com, and I was a huge shill for a huge
supporter of prediction markets.

737
01:05:29,846 --> 01:05:41,806
And so one of my earlier ideas, really, is how to do this peer to peer oracle, how
to do this online crypto prediction market thing.

738
01:05:41,806 --> 01:05:49,086
And I was like championing this for a very, very long time, long before there was a
poly market or a calc sheet or anything like that.

739
01:05:49,766 --> 01:05:55,806
And so now, yeah, this is, again, an idea that I was working on in Bitcoin from 2013
to like 2015.

740
01:05:56,406 --> 01:06:06,086
And but there was no way to add it to Bitcoin because Bitcoin is slow on soft forks,
slow on sidechain, slow on all this programmability and stuff.

741
01:06:07,246 --> 01:06:09,006
So there was no way to actually add it to Bitcoin.

742
01:06:09,006 --> 01:06:10,086
But now there actually is.

743
01:06:10,086 --> 01:06:15,046
So I think that, again, it's something that has a lot of potential that will be very
complicated.

744
01:06:15,046 --> 01:06:22,326
And I don't know if it will be fully operational by the time launch later this
month.

745
01:06:22,886 --> 01:06:25,926
But I don't. But, you know, we'll see again.

746
01:06:25,966 --> 01:06:27,206
It's like it's there.

747
01:06:27,206 --> 01:06:31,926
You can see it. Anyone can get involved and help, you know, especially with AI and
stuff.

748
01:06:31,926 --> 01:06:35,326
We can write software much faster than we could before.

749
01:06:35,406 --> 01:06:46,486
And Decentralized Exchange, it's for all the tokens which were pushed on the
BitAssets, right?

750
01:06:46,526 --> 01:06:51,366
No, no, no. BitAssets can already do a decentralized exchange for its own tokens.

751
01:06:52,406 --> 01:06:53,926
Coinshift is slightly different.

752
01:06:53,926 --> 01:06:56,486
Coinshift asks this really bizarre question.

753
01:06:57,006 --> 01:07:04,846
And it says Coinshift depends on the L1 of eCash in order to know about which coins
have been deposited and withdrawn.

754
01:07:05,326 --> 01:07:11,286
So that's all the L2s require the L1, same as the Lightning Node requires a Bitcoin
Core L1.

755
01:07:11,686 --> 01:07:14,206
But Coinshift asks this other bizarre question.

756
01:07:14,206 --> 01:07:19,086
It says, you know, what if there were what if the Coinshift needed multiple L1s?

757
01:07:19,806 --> 01:07:27,326
And in fact, to run Coinshift, you have to basically download other full node
software of altcoins.

758
01:07:28,086 --> 01:07:34,006
And then if you do that, the Coinshift is aware of which altcoin transactions have
confirmed.

759
01:07:34,686 --> 01:07:40,446
And it can then you can then swap altcoins inside Coinshift.

760
01:07:40,766 --> 01:07:46,566
Now, I'm not sure if this idea is going to totally work, but I think it I think it
might.

761
01:07:47,006 --> 01:07:52,926
And in any event, a version like 1.0 is kind of up there already.

762
01:07:53,726 --> 01:07:56,326
So we'll see if anyone likes this.

763
01:07:56,326 --> 01:08:08,166
I think it could be a very useful tool in terms of like, like making it so that you
have an option if the exchanges don't do necessarily what you want.

764
01:08:08,926 --> 01:08:10,646
So I think that that could be cool.

765
01:08:11,166 --> 01:08:14,206
But that's a very interesting sort of experimental idea.

766
01:08:14,206 --> 01:08:44,166
At a first glance, which I look at seven sidechains and they think of some DeFi
stuff, you mean lending and borrowing and all this kind of stuff, which can be a
certain sidechain or maybe you you think of another place like in some bit assets or
maybe or and the other stuff is like RVA.

767
01:08:45,086 --> 01:08:48,606
RWA, I mean tokenization of everything stuff.

768
01:08:48,606 --> 01:08:49,366
Do you think about it?

769
01:08:51,446 --> 01:09:07,286
Well, so with respect to like a DeFi smart contracts type of thing, there actually
was we had something called ETH side, which was like EVM chain.

770
01:09:07,286 --> 01:09:08,966
And I wasn't that interested in it.

771
01:09:09,446 --> 01:09:18,446
But I think someone, as I mentioned, maybe 20 minutes ago, someone is bringing it
back in a better version with like a rust EVM.

772
01:09:18,446 --> 01:09:20,086
So there will be like EVM.

773
01:09:20,966 --> 01:09:26,646
I don't know, like, you know, obviously, a lot of that stuff is popular in terms of
the transaction fees spent.

774
01:09:26,686 --> 01:09:32,446
You can go to a site crypto fees that info and you can see Ethereum has more
transaction fees than Bitcoin.

775
01:09:32,646 --> 01:09:36,046
I think partly, though, that's just because the BTC fees are so, so low.

776
01:09:37,046 --> 01:09:42,566
And that it's mostly that BTC is doing a bad job.

777
01:09:44,206 --> 01:09:48,326
But, yeah, I think the idea is that I would rather not pass any judgment.

778
01:09:48,326 --> 01:09:51,126
You know what I mean? I would not want to say, oh, I think people should do this.

779
01:09:51,126 --> 01:09:52,086
I think we should do that.

780
01:09:53,326 --> 01:09:55,886
People should just do whatever they want to do.

781
01:09:56,646 --> 01:09:58,966
And if they think something's a good idea, they can try it.

782
01:09:59,766 --> 01:10:06,726
I mean, it's like a natural way to develop new ecosystems in the days.

783
01:10:07,046 --> 01:10:18,806
So when a new ecosystem arrives, so it needs some traditional stuff like its own
exchange, its own token creating facility and DeFi stuff and all this kind of stuff.

784
01:10:18,806 --> 01:10:26,126
So I guess you will need some DeFi stuff if you want your system to be complete.

785
01:10:26,446 --> 01:10:32,646
Yeah, I think perhaps, probably, I don't know.

786
01:10:33,046 --> 01:10:34,926
It depends on what people really want.

787
01:10:34,926 --> 01:10:50,366
Like, I think in part, investors must be very annoyed when they open
coinmarketcap.com or something and they see all these different coins and they just
kind of think, like, how do I know which one to pick or something like that?

788
01:10:50,366 --> 01:10:51,806
So that's my guess.

789
01:10:52,526 --> 01:11:03,966
And so that's what this is trying to say, is that this will be the final thing
because it will just absorb everything that everyone else can do, even to a greater
extent than Ethereum was.

790
01:11:03,966 --> 01:11:07,486
Because Ethereum was like, oh, it's like Bitcoin, but you could use smart contracts
or something like that.

791
01:11:07,686 --> 01:11:12,246
But Ethereum also had its own governance issue and its own block size issue.

792
01:11:13,406 --> 01:11:21,406
And of course, when Ethereum blocks fill up, that's when people abandon it and go to
Solana or to whatever.

793
01:11:22,406 --> 01:11:40,326
So with this idea, all these different chains, even chains that are the same but
different sizes, like Solana, like EVM, like kind of like a larger block version of
Ethereum to some extent, and the whole EVM family, different sizes.

794
01:11:40,806 --> 01:11:50,206
In my conception, these are all just L2s of different size and they're all linked to
the same 21 million coins.

795
01:11:52,806 --> 01:12:00,606
Okay, let's talk about airdrop a bit, because I see a lot of questions in the chat.

796
01:12:00,606 --> 01:12:07,406
So what would you advise an ordinary person who's simply holding Bitcoin?

797
01:12:07,406 --> 01:12:18,406
Do they need to do anything special before August or they can leave anything alone
or they need some wallet special or whatever?

798
01:12:19,406 --> 01:12:40,006
Well, the most important thing is to have self-custody of the BTC, because if you
have BTC through someone else, if you own BTC through, you know, Coinbase or
MicroStrategy or whatever, they are the real owner and they will get the credit.

799
01:12:41,006 --> 01:12:44,406
And so, yeah, self-custody may be difficult for some.

800
01:12:44,406 --> 01:12:59,006
But so if you want to be owning your own UTXO, you know, you're going to own the
coins and you have the private key at the moment of the fork, which is like, you
know, in like a few weeks, the end of August.

801
01:12:59,006 --> 01:13:02,606
So that's the most important thing.

802
01:13:02,606 --> 01:13:05,206
Then you want to probably split the coins.

803
01:13:06,006 --> 01:13:08,606
And there is an easy way to do that.

804
01:13:09,206 --> 01:13:14,206
I mean, it's easy from my point of view, but probably from a regular person would be
totally confused and whatever.

805
01:13:14,206 --> 01:13:16,806
So there will be, you know, I'm sure there will be.

806
01:13:17,206 --> 01:13:26,606
We have like splitting tool that you can use, but I'm sure that it's also suspicious
for people to just download software in the crypto industry.

807
01:13:26,606 --> 01:13:29,306
You don't want to just download random software for people.

808
01:13:29,906 --> 01:13:39,106
So we have we will publish we have published documents about how to split the coins
so that because when they're created, they're kind of moving lockstep.

809
01:13:39,106 --> 01:13:40,306
They might move together.

810
01:13:40,306 --> 01:13:45,706
So if you if they split and then you send the BTC, you send the e-cash to the new
destination also.

811
01:13:45,706 --> 01:13:49,306
So you want to split them so that they have separate fate.

812
01:13:49,906 --> 01:13:55,906
And that's so that's what you should do.

813
01:13:56,306 --> 01:14:01,706
Yeah, if you want one thing, if people are interested is we have these dry run.

814
01:14:01,906 --> 01:14:05,106
We have a practice hard forks that we're doing.

815
01:14:05,506 --> 01:14:07,806
So we're currently on dry run number three.

816
01:14:08,506 --> 01:14:17,206
And basically what I'm saying is you can just download that and you can practice
that one should behave mostly the same way that the real fork behaves.

817
01:14:17,706 --> 01:14:22,606
So except that it'll be a bunch of coins that are useless now and they will be
useless in the future.

818
01:14:23,606 --> 01:14:25,806
And so but you can try it out for yourself.

819
01:14:25,806 --> 01:14:31,906
If you're a technical person and you want to really like practice, you can just
practice on the network.

820
01:14:31,906 --> 01:14:34,806
But if you're just a normal person, you want to just own BTC.

821
01:14:34,906 --> 01:14:39,106
Try not to spend any BTC until you've split the coins.

822
01:14:39,806 --> 01:14:41,906
And so try not to spend it, you know, until you've.

823
01:14:42,106 --> 01:14:49,406
I mean, I mean, if you have bitcoins on some regular non-custodial wallet, like
trust wallet, is it works?

824
01:14:50,206 --> 01:14:56,306
Yeah, as long as you don't move them, do you have them, you know, you can take your
time in that case.

825
01:14:56,406 --> 01:15:00,906
So you can just say, OK, I just I'm holding them on August 23rd or whatever it is.

826
01:15:01,465 --> 01:15:28,465
Then they they will split into two and then as long as you don't touch them, they'll
stay there as two pieces, then you have to you have to split them off and to if
people want more information about that, I mean, what you would do is there's this a
transaction you can make so that it only moves the eCash, but not the BTC, and
that's because we've tinkered with the end lock time, if you do the one beneath the
end of the lock time, that's the end of the lock time, you know,

827
01:15:28,465 --> 01:15:40,905
the max. It's a transaction that cannot be broadcast in the BTC network for like 500
years, but it will be instantly broadcast on ECX, then they'll be split and then you
have them in in two different places.

828
01:15:40,905 --> 01:15:45,465
You can buy and sell them independently, but otherwise they'll be like a package
deal.

829
01:15:46,825 --> 01:15:51,665
OK, is it easier with the eCash wallet, which is available?

830
01:15:51,665 --> 01:15:53,145
Yeah, we have a mobile wallet.

831
01:15:53,145 --> 01:15:54,265
I think it's pretty good.

832
01:15:54,265 --> 01:15:58,145
And yeah, the mobile wallet will tell you like you have this many coins, you have to
split.

833
01:15:58,185 --> 01:16:03,425
But of course, you have to import in order to get the you'd have to import your BTC
private key.

834
01:16:03,825 --> 01:16:12,185
And I don't know if people want to do that with something that they just downloaded
versus something that they actually trust they've trusted for years.

835
01:16:12,185 --> 01:16:17,585
That would be I could understand how people would say, oh, I want to.

836
01:16:19,465 --> 01:16:22,105
So I don't know, it's kind of like a little bit of a.

837
01:16:23,105 --> 01:16:33,385
No matter what you do, you either have to like do it yourself, but then you have to
research these technical details about and lock time or you use a splitting tool,
but then splitting tool as your.

838
01:16:34,545 --> 01:16:49,705
Private key to your BTC, so that's I think a smart thing is just it depends what
kind of person you are, OK, if what you are is someone who's invested and you're
holding because you think that one day Bitcoin technology will be really, really
good.

839
01:16:50,705 --> 01:16:59,865
And you don't plan on moving, sending or selling or moving your coins, then all you
have to do is have them in self custody and do nothing, and that's that's that's
pretty good.

840
01:17:00,065 --> 01:17:10,425
If you're someone who's making and buying and selling and you're moving a lot of BTC
around all the time, then you should probably research the splitter tools that you
can split immediately.

841
01:17:10,745 --> 01:17:19,545
If you just keep your coins on an exchange, you have to hope that the exchange will
and I don't know, I can't answer for the exchange.

842
01:17:19,545 --> 01:17:26,425
I have there are a few exchanges that I think will, but then I don't know if they
all will credit.

843
01:17:28,745 --> 01:17:33,145
And of course, even if they say they do, then maybe they'll screw it up or maybe
they'll change their mind.

844
01:17:33,145 --> 01:17:39,465
So I can't necessarily vouch for what the exchange if the exchange will give you.

845
01:17:40,345 --> 01:17:44,585
When I say exchange, I mean like one of these big places that have a huge.

846
01:17:44,865 --> 01:17:48,945
Yeah. If you own through the ETF, if you own through the.

847
01:17:50,465 --> 01:18:03,105
So like some of the ETF, the BlackRock ETF, they have language in there that says we
will just pick which if there's a hard fork, we will just pick which side you get
and you don't necessarily get anything else.

848
01:18:03,945 --> 01:18:09,385
Now, I don't know if they're serious about that or if they are whatever, but, you
know, if they plan on pocketing the.

849
01:18:10,385 --> 01:18:24,625
All of the for them, so I have absolutely no idea, and even if I did, I don't know
if they're going to change their mind or or what's the most reliable thing is to
have self custody of your own BTC, not not touch it for a while.

850
01:18:24,745 --> 01:18:28,545
Look around and see, you know, see what other people actually I found.

851
01:18:28,545 --> 01:18:37,905
A text on our website, which is called Who Can Receive E-Cash Coins and What Will It
Take?

852
01:18:37,905 --> 01:18:44,945
So it's the like explainer for for those who want to to get their drop and do it
properly.

853
01:18:45,385 --> 01:18:50,025
It's in English, Russian and Polish if you if you need.

854
01:18:50,945 --> 01:18:58,545
And on our GitHub, we have like a fast facts site that has like lots of information
and I don't know if it will.

855
01:18:58,905 --> 01:19:00,625
One of them is how to split the coins.

856
01:19:00,785 --> 01:19:05,025
And you picked the interesting topic about the big wallets.

857
01:19:05,025 --> 01:19:18,145
So probably the most controversial aspect of the upcoming fork is as far as
community is concerned, is the resignment of the coins attributed to Satoshi
Nakamoto, for example, or another big holders.

858
01:19:18,425 --> 01:19:24,625
So can you explain in your own words what what you are doing with these coins and
what I'm not doing?

859
01:19:26,025 --> 01:19:30,145
Yeah, absolutely. I think this is a really, really good idea that people should
copy.

860
01:19:30,145 --> 01:19:32,945
But some people, I think they have to warm up to it.

861
01:19:32,945 --> 01:19:40,145
You know, they don't they don't quite like it right now, but they just have to think
about it a little bit more and they will like it.

862
01:19:40,705 --> 01:19:44,985
So what we do is there's this pattern called the Potosi pattern.

863
01:19:45,145 --> 01:19:50,505
Satoshi mined 1.1 million coins using this weird miner.

864
01:19:50,505 --> 01:19:53,545
And he left distinct traces.

865
01:19:53,545 --> 01:19:55,145
These are all very, very early coins.

866
01:19:55,705 --> 01:20:12,905
And instead of giving Satoshi all 1.1 million e-cash, we're only giving him 600,000
and the other 500,000 we're giving to the supporters to help make the project
possible in the first place.

867
01:20:13,305 --> 01:20:17,225
And the reason this is a good idea, I mean, there's a lot of different reasons.

868
01:20:18,265 --> 01:20:28,265
But one is that it gives people an incentive to launch forks that are actually good
and where a lot of work has been put in before the fork actually happens.

869
01:20:28,905 --> 01:20:30,985
So you want to have all the work done up front.

870
01:20:31,545 --> 01:20:41,305
And you also want the fork, you know, if the fork doesn't have a critical mass of
advocates and people giving it attention and people rooting for it at the beginning.

871
01:20:41,305 --> 01:20:45,065
It might stall out.

872
01:20:45,065 --> 01:20:50,905
So you want to build support first before you bother anyone, before you go on any
podcasts or whatever.

873
01:20:50,905 --> 01:20:51,865
Build all the support.

874
01:20:51,865 --> 01:20:53,145
Build all this technology.

875
01:20:53,705 --> 01:20:58,905
You do it first and then launch later.

876
01:20:59,865 --> 01:21:10,265
And this is just like a really good idea because it means that the alternative would
be to have a lot of people sacrifice up front.

877
01:21:12,105 --> 01:21:16,745
And then be treated the same way as the skeptics as when the fork actually launches.

878
01:21:16,745 --> 01:21:26,265
So I wrote a kind of an article about this where I put it on X so we can maybe link
to it or whatever.

879
01:21:26,265 --> 01:21:31,065
But I think this is a really, really cool idea because this is like privatizes the.

880
01:21:31,705 --> 01:21:40,105
It means that if there's any mistake in, for example, Bitcoin Core or E-cash or
anything else, it's a huge mistake in Monero.

881
01:21:40,105 --> 01:21:42,745
There's now a way to profit by fixing it.

882
01:21:43,305 --> 01:21:44,025
And this is great.

883
01:21:44,025 --> 01:21:49,385
It just means that people be scouring these networks for anything they think they
can improve.

884
01:21:50,025 --> 01:21:57,385
Launching a new version, giving everyone free money, including Satoshi, is 600,000
coins that otherwise he would have had zero.

885
01:21:58,105 --> 01:22:07,865
So this is, I think, you know, very controversial because it's kind of like, you
know, what gives someone the right to move coins around or something like that.

886
01:22:07,865 --> 01:22:09,625
But I think that's the wrong way of thinking about it.

887
01:22:09,705 --> 01:22:18,105
The right way of thinking about it is how many, how much E-cash would everyone get
in a world where no one did this type of thing?

888
01:22:18,505 --> 01:22:21,465
How many hard forks would there be in a world where no one did this type of thing?

889
01:22:21,785 --> 01:22:26,105
Probably everyone would just get zero instead of getting 600 because the project
would never exist in the first place.

890
01:22:26,905 --> 01:22:32,665
And even if it would have existed, would it have been built as quickly or would
people have, you know, what is how does it work?

891
01:22:32,665 --> 01:22:36,985
It's very hard to run a project when you have people putting in different levels of
effort.

892
01:22:37,945 --> 01:22:43,145
So you have a project and one person is working five times as hard as someone else.

893
01:22:44,585 --> 01:22:53,065
Well, with this, you can reward that person with five times as many of the
pre-E-cash versus one fifth for the other person.

894
01:22:53,385 --> 01:23:04,345
So you can have a whole growth process and you can give people a reward that is
contingent on the value of the project when it launches.

895
01:23:05,305 --> 01:23:09,305
So versus if you do the pure fork, then you cannot.

896
01:23:09,865 --> 01:23:22,985
And of course, nothing is stopping someone from just taking this and releasing yet
another fork that doesn't have the socially reassigned coins or doing any other
thing, you know, or doing 250 instead of 500,000 or doing all 1.1 million.

897
01:23:23,705 --> 01:23:37,385
So I think it is controversial, but I think that the people who dislike it or
pretend to dislike it, I think they're being dishonest in many different ways.

898
01:23:37,385 --> 01:23:44,985
So for one thing, they're sort of saying like, I think about it like this, either
this drive chain stuff is a good idea or it's not.

899
01:23:46,025 --> 01:23:49,945
OK, if it's a good idea, then why isn't BTC doing it?

900
01:23:50,905 --> 01:23:53,465
And if it's not a good idea, then it doesn't matter.

901
01:23:53,465 --> 01:23:56,025
Who cares? It's Satoshi's coins plus a bad idea.

902
01:23:56,025 --> 01:23:56,985
It's two bad ideas.

903
01:23:56,985 --> 01:23:58,745
This will just be some bad project.

904
01:23:58,745 --> 01:23:59,385
It won't work.

905
01:23:59,385 --> 01:24:15,865
And then it's like it's like a new project on Ethereum sent like millions of coins
to Vitalik and he just either sold it immediately and spend it on Ukraine or
something like that.

906
01:24:16,825 --> 01:24:24,825
Does it concern only Satoshi's tokens or another other big holders like Satoshi?

907
01:24:24,825 --> 01:24:29,145
And I think they are they are also like abandoned, basically.

908
01:24:29,145 --> 01:24:33,305
Satoshi had a miner that he'd only turned on after waiting five minutes between each
block.

909
01:24:33,305 --> 01:24:36,185
So they were the miner was just to move the network along.

910
01:24:36,905 --> 01:24:38,905
I don't even think he was trying to get the coins.

911
01:24:39,465 --> 01:24:45,545
And I don't think he has any plans to revisit the coins.

912
01:24:45,545 --> 01:24:48,585
If he does, he still has 600,000 coins, just enormous amounts.

913
01:24:48,585 --> 01:24:52,585
It's only Satoshi's coins that have this patoshi pattern.

914
01:24:52,585 --> 01:24:58,105
And they were all mined in like 2009, 2010, maybe a few of them.

915
01:24:58,105 --> 01:25:04,585
But I think, yeah, I have a lot of disagreements with Michael Saylor.

916
01:25:04,825 --> 01:25:09,305
In fact, I think he's a very clueless person and overall.

917
01:25:09,305 --> 01:25:12,665
But he did, you know, he bought the BTC fair and square.

918
01:25:13,545 --> 01:25:17,785
I'm not exactly sure if he will even end up getting any cash, because who knows?

919
01:25:17,785 --> 01:25:21,945
You know, presumably he has them with some custodian or Coinbase or something.

920
01:25:21,945 --> 01:25:25,305
He may have them with something that that person may have it down in there.

921
01:25:27,065 --> 01:25:33,865
That person may have it down in their fine print of the contract that they get to
keep any hard fork.

922
01:25:33,865 --> 01:25:36,185
I have no idea what will happen with that.

923
01:25:36,185 --> 01:25:37,145
So I don't know.

924
01:25:37,145 --> 01:25:38,825
But hopefully they look into it if they care.

925
01:25:38,825 --> 01:25:40,585
Or if they don't care, then maybe they don't.

926
01:25:40,585 --> 01:25:41,865
You know, it's pre-trading.

927
01:25:42,505 --> 01:25:48,985
Even if the pre-trading is like $36 to like $300 per coin, that's actually a pretty
small percent.

928
01:25:50,585 --> 01:25:58,825
So if it's $100 per coin versus BTC rises to $100,000 per coin, that is one
thousandth.

929
01:25:59,945 --> 01:26:02,665
So just that's pretty low, actually.

930
01:26:02,665 --> 01:26:04,425
So maybe they just decide that they don't care.

931
01:26:04,425 --> 01:26:06,425
Or maybe it'll open at a completely different price.

932
01:26:06,985 --> 01:26:08,185
Much higher, much lower.

933
01:26:08,185 --> 01:26:08,745
Could be anything.

934
01:26:08,745 --> 01:26:09,785
Anything could happen, you know.

935
01:26:10,745 --> 01:26:11,465
For sure.

936
01:26:11,465 --> 01:26:16,265
By the way, does the question of who Satoshi is actually matter to you?

937
01:26:16,265 --> 01:26:19,145
Or is it better that he stays unknown forever?

938
01:26:20,105 --> 01:26:22,745
Well, clearly he wanted to remain anonymous.

939
01:26:22,745 --> 01:26:26,985
So I'm happy that he achieved his goal, I think.

940
01:26:27,785 --> 01:26:35,625
And I see no reason to, let's say, interfere with his plans to remain anonymous.

941
01:26:35,625 --> 01:26:38,425
So I think that that's fine.

942
01:26:38,425 --> 01:26:43,305
Certainly as a matter of history, it would be interesting.

943
01:26:43,305 --> 01:26:48,985
The same way it would be if it was like Einstein had come up with a bunch of
equations by,

944
01:26:50,185 --> 01:26:54,985
you know, using LSD or by using meditation or something.

945
01:26:55,385 --> 01:26:58,185
Or that he plagiarized them from someone else.

946
01:26:58,185 --> 01:27:01,945
That as a matter of history, that would be very, very interesting.

947
01:27:02,905 --> 01:27:06,745
Of course, the actual physics of the equations doesn't matter in the slightest.

948
01:27:07,865 --> 01:27:16,025
And so similarly, you know, the ideas and the code, they certainly stand by
themselves.

949
01:27:16,665 --> 01:27:19,705
So yeah, I think a lot of people have actually figured out

950
01:27:20,665 --> 01:27:23,705
clues about who Satoshi might be.

951
01:27:23,705 --> 01:27:27,145
And they're just not saying anything because it's very impolite.

952
01:27:27,145 --> 01:27:28,425
It's an impolite thing to do.

953
01:27:29,705 --> 01:27:31,305
There are some cool clues out there, though.

954
01:27:33,705 --> 01:27:38,905
Okay, so we have 90 minutes of super interesting conversation.

955
01:27:39,705 --> 01:27:42,825
Now we can ask some questions from the audience.

956
01:27:42,825 --> 01:27:46,345
I have a few at my dock.

957
01:27:46,825 --> 01:27:50,185
And you can also ask in the comments.

958
01:27:50,185 --> 01:27:53,225
I will tell them.

959
01:27:53,225 --> 01:27:56,505
So the first question from our audience is,

960
01:27:58,505 --> 01:28:01,145
Hey, Paul, you mentioned that since 2017,

961
01:28:01,145 --> 01:28:04,185
Bitcoin Core has only pushed through two soft forks.

962
01:28:04,185 --> 01:28:08,505
And both are backed by Greg Maxwell, who is no longer involved in the project.

963
01:28:09,305 --> 01:28:13,305
Does this mean the software activation path is effectively dead?

964
01:28:13,305 --> 01:28:18,505
And is that exactly why the e-cash plan emerged as a separate layer one?

965
01:28:19,865 --> 01:28:21,145
I would say yes.

966
01:28:21,145 --> 01:28:28,025
And I would also add that the soft fork is a really, really good thing.

967
01:28:28,025 --> 01:28:29,545
It lets us do all this cool stuff.

968
01:28:29,545 --> 01:28:31,145
And it has basically no downsides.

969
01:28:31,705 --> 01:28:36,265
So the fact that we're not doing it proves how crazy we are.

970
01:28:36,265 --> 01:28:37,065
You know what I mean?

971
01:28:37,065 --> 01:28:41,945
It's kind of like if you walk into a village,

972
01:28:42,825 --> 01:28:44,425
you walk into a town and they say,

973
01:28:44,425 --> 01:28:49,545
Oh, you know, here we just like, I don't know,

974
01:28:49,545 --> 01:28:52,905
here we burn all of our food before we eat it.

975
01:28:52,905 --> 01:28:53,385
You know what I mean?

976
01:28:53,385 --> 01:28:55,785
Like you just like instead of cooking it, they just burn it all.

977
01:28:55,785 --> 01:28:58,505
And you're like, why don't you just not burn it?

978
01:28:58,505 --> 01:29:01,705
And they're like, oh, well, and they just they just carry on.

979
01:29:01,705 --> 01:29:03,225
You think like, oh, this place is crazy.

980
01:29:03,225 --> 01:29:04,185
I have to get out of here.

981
01:29:04,185 --> 01:29:05,145
So that's the issue.

982
01:29:05,145 --> 01:29:07,385
That's why I wrote in the derangements of Bitcoin.

983
01:29:07,385 --> 01:29:10,185
We do a lot of stuff that just makes no sense at all.

984
01:29:10,185 --> 01:29:12,025
And when you look into it further, you see,

985
01:29:12,665 --> 01:29:14,665
oh, it makes even less sense than I thought.

986
01:29:15,545 --> 01:29:20,905
And so, you know, the fact that we can't do soft forks anymore

987
01:29:20,905 --> 01:29:24,505
speaks to how crazy the community is.

988
01:29:24,505 --> 01:29:27,945
And its days are maybe numbered.

989
01:29:28,665 --> 01:29:30,265
You know, it might be the end.

990
01:29:30,265 --> 01:29:31,625
But, you know, again, I hope not.

991
01:29:31,625 --> 01:29:33,385
I hope that Bitcoin does super, super well.

992
01:29:33,385 --> 01:29:35,625
But that is, I would say yes to that question.

993
01:29:36,185 --> 01:29:44,265
OK, another question is about why doing fork during the bear market?

994
01:29:44,905 --> 01:29:49,305
Why don't you wait till the bull market when there are more changes

995
01:29:49,305 --> 01:29:52,665
that projects will get nice traction and chances of surviving?

996
01:29:54,345 --> 01:29:55,145
Well, it's a good question.

997
01:29:55,145 --> 01:29:58,505
I mean, no one knows when you got to plan this type of thing out.

998
01:29:59,225 --> 01:30:03,305
And no one knows when a bull market will end or begin or.

999
01:30:03,465 --> 01:30:06,665
I do think there is a natural cycle of.

1000
01:30:07,865 --> 01:30:12,105
You know, success leading to irrational optimism, right,

1001
01:30:12,105 --> 01:30:17,625
and then leading to overdoing it and then pessimism leading to over.

1002
01:30:17,625 --> 01:30:20,345
So I think there's an overcorrection each time.

1003
01:30:20,345 --> 01:30:21,945
So there's good news and there's bad news.

1004
01:30:21,945 --> 01:30:26,825
But then there's inflated expectations and then overly pessimistic.

1005
01:30:26,825 --> 01:30:31,545
So even though I do believe in this sort of cycle to some extent,

1006
01:30:31,945 --> 01:30:34,825
it's not the same thing as the, you know, the seasons,

1007
01:30:34,825 --> 01:30:37,225
you know, where we can predict it to the exact day.

1008
01:30:37,225 --> 01:30:42,905
We know exactly when the darkest day of the year is going to be December 21st, you
know.

1009
01:30:43,945 --> 01:30:44,505
Only postwar.

1010
01:30:45,945 --> 01:30:49,945
So with this, we don't really know, like, oh, why don't you wait until the bear
market ends?

1011
01:30:49,945 --> 01:30:50,905
Well, when is that going to be?

1012
01:30:50,905 --> 01:30:51,865
I don't know when that is.

1013
01:30:51,865 --> 01:30:52,425
You know what I mean?

1014
01:30:52,425 --> 01:30:54,025
You got to plan it out months in advance.

1015
01:30:54,025 --> 01:30:55,625
So if I knew that, maybe I would.

1016
01:30:55,625 --> 01:30:56,985
So if I knew that, maybe I would.

1017
01:30:56,985 --> 01:31:02,665
But I do think that also part of the bull and bear markets,

1018
01:31:02,665 --> 01:31:06,585
I don't think they are divinely ordained.

1019
01:31:06,585 --> 01:31:07,225
You know what I mean?

1020
01:31:07,225 --> 01:31:10,585
I think they actually come about because of the behavior of people.

1021
01:31:11,305 --> 01:31:15,625
So it could be that launching this project is what kicks off the next bull market.

1022
01:31:15,625 --> 01:31:17,625
I'm not saying that that's necessarily the case,

1023
01:31:17,625 --> 01:31:19,625
but it could be like, oh, there's this project.

1024
01:31:19,625 --> 01:31:22,185
Then suddenly everyone starts copying the fork ideas.

1025
01:31:22,265 --> 01:31:25,545
Now Bitcoiners are just getting hundreds of free different forks.

1026
01:31:26,185 --> 01:31:27,705
And now everyone has all this money.

1027
01:31:27,705 --> 01:31:31,225
And then eventually the mainstream world wakes up to the fact that,

1028
01:31:31,225 --> 01:31:33,465
oh, actually, Bitcoin is not just one project.

1029
01:31:33,465 --> 01:31:36,665
Bitcoin is this tradition and culture.

1030
01:31:36,665 --> 01:31:41,785
And there's actually now a way to have different teams that compete and all hate
each other.

1031
01:31:41,785 --> 01:31:42,665
They all launch coins.

1032
01:31:42,665 --> 01:31:46,185
And every time they do that, as a Bitcoin holder, you get free money.

1033
01:31:46,185 --> 01:31:49,465
Then that might be a completely new narrative that just like...

1034
01:31:49,465 --> 01:31:50,985
Now, I'm not saying that any of that will happen.

1035
01:31:50,985 --> 01:31:58,905
But I think that the bull and the bear market, they're partly caused by people's
work.

1036
01:32:00,745 --> 01:32:04,585
Okay, you already mentioned some incentives.

1037
01:32:05,465 --> 01:32:07,705
So there's a question from the audience.

1038
01:32:07,705 --> 01:32:10,505
How do you plan to onboard new users and projects?

1039
01:32:10,505 --> 01:32:12,905
Any incentives in the marketing scenario?

1040
01:32:13,545 --> 01:32:15,865
My strategy is to lower the cost.

1041
01:32:15,865 --> 01:32:17,145
So I think that's better than...

1042
01:32:18,105 --> 01:32:19,785
We have, you know, we actually do...

1043
01:32:19,785 --> 01:32:22,425
Of course, we hire programmers all the time.

1044
01:32:22,425 --> 01:32:27,545
So if someone wants to work, that's great.

1045
01:32:27,545 --> 01:32:30,905
And they should just show up and start fixing things.

1046
01:32:30,905 --> 01:32:32,905
We have the bug hunts contest.

1047
01:32:32,905 --> 01:32:34,265
We have lots of stuff that we do.

1048
01:32:36,105 --> 01:32:37,705
So we do hire people.

1049
01:32:37,705 --> 01:32:41,785
And that's how we ended up with, you know, bid names and et cetera, bid assets.

1050
01:32:42,745 --> 01:32:49,865
So I don't want to necessarily rely too much on my vision for what people might
want.

1051
01:32:49,865 --> 01:32:52,585
Instead, I want it to be more open and say, you know, whatever it is.

1052
01:32:52,585 --> 01:32:59,145
I think some things that make it easier for people to develop these new projects

1053
01:33:00,265 --> 01:33:05,865
and onboard the new users are just if you just get out of people's way, actually.

1054
01:33:06,425 --> 01:33:10,265
Because oftentimes in Bitcoin, you have something where some genius person will show
up.

1055
01:33:10,265 --> 01:33:11,465
Here's my genius project.

1056
01:33:11,465 --> 01:33:14,745
You know, you have like a Jeremy Rubin, you know, and he's doing CTV or whatever.

1057
01:33:16,025 --> 01:33:20,345
But then he can't get CTV because there's no soft forks.

1058
01:33:22,025 --> 01:33:24,985
Same for, you know, Vitalik Buterin or Roger Ver.

1059
01:33:24,985 --> 01:33:28,745
Vitalik Buterin, they tried to start Ethereum on BTC back in the day.

1060
01:33:28,745 --> 01:33:33,145
And Roger Ver, they tried to have large blocks on BTC.

1061
01:33:33,145 --> 01:33:37,385
You know, people tried really hard to get it on BTC, but they just couldn't.

1062
01:33:37,385 --> 01:33:39,625
So first, we're going to lower that cost to zero.

1063
01:33:39,705 --> 01:33:43,945
We want to make it so that people can launch new L2s.

1064
01:33:43,945 --> 01:33:49,545
So part of the reason to put out a few different L2s is so that other people can
then look at those

1065
01:33:49,545 --> 01:33:54,025
and just say, OK, this is now a template for a fully working L2.

1066
01:33:54,025 --> 01:34:02,025
I just want to modify these parts, change the color and add my new feature that
people are going to like.

1067
01:34:02,025 --> 01:34:08,905
So if you do all that stuff, you're lowering the cost because you don't know who to
hire.

1068
01:34:09,145 --> 01:34:11,145
If you hire someone, you might hire a great person.

1069
01:34:11,145 --> 01:34:12,665
You might hire a mediocre person.

1070
01:34:13,625 --> 01:34:15,145
You might hire the best person in the world.

1071
01:34:15,145 --> 01:34:17,705
Or you might hire the 10th best person in the world.

1072
01:34:17,705 --> 01:34:18,665
It's very hard to tell.

1073
01:34:19,305 --> 01:34:21,545
You know, it's a really big risk when you hire someone.

1074
01:34:23,545 --> 01:34:23,945
I know.

1075
01:34:24,585 --> 01:34:24,905
Yeah.

1076
01:34:24,905 --> 01:34:28,985
So then the better thing is to try to lower the barriers as much as possible

1077
01:34:28,985 --> 01:34:32,105
so that they can just launch, you know, they can just spend one Saturday,

1078
01:34:32,825 --> 01:34:35,545
make their project, launch the project,

1079
01:34:35,545 --> 01:34:39,225
and then say, like, oh, here's my project.

1080
01:34:39,225 --> 01:34:40,345
Then they get all the credit.

1081
01:34:40,345 --> 01:34:41,305
They get all the glory.

1082
01:34:41,305 --> 01:34:43,625
They're a benevolent dictator of their own project.

1083
01:34:44,425 --> 01:34:47,145
They stay in their own GitHub repository.

1084
01:34:48,585 --> 01:34:52,985
And that's what a lot of people like, is a lot of people do it just for the glory
alone

1085
01:34:52,985 --> 01:34:56,905
or for the hack value, you know, just to prove that they can.

1086
01:34:56,905 --> 01:35:03,065
So those are the people we really want, is those kind of superstar, impressive
people.

1087
01:35:03,065 --> 01:35:05,065
That's a lot better than just hiring someone.

1088
01:35:05,545 --> 01:35:12,745
So I guess you just have, like, product-centric project where product on the first
plate,

1089
01:35:12,745 --> 01:35:17,065
not the marketing, not all this, you know, influencer kind of stuff.

1090
01:35:18,185 --> 01:35:23,625
When you don't actually care about the price of token,

1091
01:35:23,625 --> 01:35:29,385
you more care about the problems that should be solved by this product.

1092
01:35:30,265 --> 01:35:30,905
I would agree.

1093
01:35:30,905 --> 01:35:31,865
I think it's kind of hard.

1094
01:35:31,865 --> 01:35:34,345
Marketing is kind of hard because you spend the marketing.

1095
01:35:34,345 --> 01:35:39,385
Then, well, first of all, a lot of people take issue with it.

1096
01:35:39,385 --> 01:35:44,345
It's like a lot of people hate crypto, and they don't even allow marketing,

1097
01:35:44,345 --> 01:35:45,785
which is a bad sign.

1098
01:35:45,785 --> 01:35:48,425
So I'm not sure if this is true, but I think YouTube doesn't allow.

1099
01:35:48,425 --> 01:35:49,625
I don't really haven't checked that much.

1100
01:35:49,625 --> 01:35:50,345
It says it's funny.

1101
01:35:50,345 --> 01:35:51,945
It speaks to how little I have.

1102
01:35:51,945 --> 01:35:53,625
No, YouTube is more or less.

1103
01:35:54,265 --> 01:36:00,825
Meta is burning, like, every second ads with crypto.

1104
01:36:00,825 --> 01:36:07,225
And Google Ads, a bit better, but not very easy.

1105
01:36:07,225 --> 01:36:09,305
So some people really push against it, and they say,

1106
01:36:09,305 --> 01:36:12,905
don't advertise your crypto junk anywhere near, you know.

1107
01:36:12,905 --> 01:36:14,585
So some people don't like it at all.

1108
01:36:14,585 --> 01:36:15,945
Then it's kind of like, where would you go?

1109
01:36:15,945 --> 01:36:18,425
Like, where do I get my news?

1110
01:36:18,425 --> 01:36:19,865
Like, I get a lot of it from X.

1111
01:36:20,745 --> 01:36:23,705
I would look at maybe, you know, because a lot of people, like, I have the Brave.

1112
01:36:24,745 --> 01:36:27,465
Obviously, I had, like, AdBlock Plus, the plugins.

1113
01:36:28,105 --> 01:36:31,945
So I personally don't see a lot of ads.

1114
01:36:31,945 --> 01:36:32,985
I have YouTube Premium.

1115
01:36:32,985 --> 01:36:34,025
I don't even see any ads.

1116
01:36:34,025 --> 01:36:35,065
So, like, where are these?

1117
01:36:36,825 --> 01:36:38,185
What exactly would I even do?

1118
01:36:38,185 --> 01:36:41,785
It is a little bit overwhelming, and I'm not exactly sure.

1119
01:36:41,785 --> 01:36:46,505
So you could go down that road, or you could just keep improving the product and
just hope that.

1120
01:36:46,505 --> 01:36:52,985
I think that the problem is that people don't do very active marketing for crypto,

1121
01:36:52,985 --> 01:37:00,905
because after, like, a big marketing budget, and then the president of one country

1122
01:37:00,905 --> 01:37:06,505
makes some rates for the countries, and every time crypto goes down,

1123
01:37:07,065 --> 01:37:11,465
and all your marketing budget is, like, going away.

1124
01:37:12,025 --> 01:37:20,825
And that's why it's more clever, I guess, to build product-centric community,

1125
01:37:20,825 --> 01:37:26,665
which is active, which is eager to do some improvements, to do some work.

1126
01:37:26,665 --> 01:37:34,025
And then the bigger audience will come to the products, which actually work,

1127
01:37:34,025 --> 01:37:38,985
which actually easier to use, cheaper to use, and all this kind of stuff.

1128
01:37:41,705 --> 01:37:46,665
Yeah, I think, so for example, like, with Tesla, in the United States,

1129
01:37:46,665 --> 01:37:49,385
you would see a lot of, you used to see a lot of car commercials.

1130
01:37:50,025 --> 01:37:56,265
Of course, you used to see a lot of car commercials, automobile commercials on
television,

1131
01:37:56,265 --> 01:38:02,025
on TV, but now with streaming, people don't really watch traditional cable
television

1132
01:38:02,025 --> 01:38:06,345
or broadcast television, so it's actually been a while since I've seen a car ad.

1133
01:38:06,345 --> 01:38:11,385
But even when Tesla was getting started in, like, whatever that was, 2008 or
something,

1134
01:38:11,385 --> 01:38:16,665
you know, there has never been, like, a Tesla commercial, really.

1135
01:38:16,665 --> 01:38:21,385
And the advertising for Tesla is basically just, like, Elon's Twitter account,

1136
01:38:22,985 --> 01:38:28,425
and yet it's an enormously successful company, so it's theoretically possible

1137
01:38:28,425 --> 01:38:32,425
to stay product-oriented and let the marketing take care of itself.

1138
01:38:32,425 --> 01:38:36,985
Of course, this is a classic trap that engineering-minded people make,

1139
01:38:36,985 --> 01:38:39,305
and they think, oh, if I just build the best product,

1140
01:38:39,305 --> 01:38:41,945
the customer will be the path to my front door.

1141
01:38:41,945 --> 01:38:44,345
You know, with respect to distribution and marketing,

1142
01:38:44,345 --> 01:38:49,145
I think actually doing the hard fork is a pretty decent distribution.

1143
01:38:49,785 --> 01:38:54,985
You know, it's kind of like maybe a silver bullet, because it's like now everyone in
Bitcoin,

1144
01:38:54,985 --> 01:38:58,745
they could at least tell their friends, hey, listen, we have free money, by the way.

1145
01:38:58,745 --> 01:39:02,745
And then now everyone has some incentive to look into the project and decide, hey,

1146
01:39:03,465 --> 01:39:07,465
what is this about? Do I want to get rid of it? Do I want to ignore it?

1147
01:39:07,465 --> 01:39:11,465
So I think that that does give you a lot of firepower

1148
01:39:12,425 --> 01:39:14,585
in the marketing and distribution side.

1149
01:39:14,585 --> 01:39:16,265
Will it be enough? It's very hard.

1150
01:39:16,265 --> 01:39:22,185
If any project to work, it requires a lot of events to coincide perfectly,

1151
01:39:22,185 --> 01:39:25,065
so I don't know if it will be enough, but that does help, I think.

1152
01:39:26,825 --> 01:39:33,225
The question from our audience is, how to connect my ASIC miner to this project?

1153
01:39:33,225 --> 01:39:34,025
Is it possible?

1154
01:39:35,305 --> 01:39:36,585
Yes, but it won't be...

1155
01:39:38,985 --> 01:39:39,465
Maybe not.

1156
01:39:39,545 --> 01:39:40,105
Okay, yeah.

1157
01:39:41,545 --> 01:39:43,225
It won't be possible.

1158
01:39:43,225 --> 01:39:46,425
God bless.

1159
01:39:46,425 --> 01:39:47,225
All right, thank you.

1160
01:39:48,585 --> 01:39:49,865
Got some dust there or something.

1161
01:39:50,505 --> 01:39:56,185
So, yeah, it won't do anything until August 23rd, because it won't have forked off
since then.

1162
01:39:56,185 --> 01:40:00,585
But there is, if you go to github.com and you go to

1163
01:40:01,168 --> 01:40:03,168
github.com and you go to, it's ecash-com is the site.

1164
01:40:05,368 --> 01:40:09,928
We have this Fast Facts repository pinned at the top,

1165
01:40:09,928 --> 01:40:11,608
and there's like a how to mine,

1166
01:40:11,608 --> 01:40:13,768
how to create your own mining pool if you want,

1167
01:40:13,768 --> 01:40:15,288
or how to join the mining pool.

1168
01:40:15,288 --> 01:40:17,088
Now the thing is, there's so many links

1169
01:40:17,088 --> 01:40:18,688
that I sometimes get them confused,

1170
01:40:18,688 --> 01:40:22,568
but I think it's pool.drivechain.info

1171
01:40:22,568 --> 01:40:24,688
or something like that, if you go to,

1172
01:40:24,688 --> 01:40:27,008
but that's why I say go to the GitHub thing first.

1173
01:40:27,008 --> 01:40:28,208
We have to, you know what we have to do

1174
01:40:28,208 --> 01:40:30,728
is we have to organize them all in one place,

1175
01:40:30,728 --> 01:40:35,488
which there is drivechain.dev slash config.

1176
01:40:35,488 --> 01:40:39,848
They'll dump all these links at you.

1177
01:40:39,848 --> 01:40:42,768
But there's something, there's a,

1178
01:40:42,768 --> 01:40:45,568
I think it's pool.drivechain.info.

1179
01:40:45,568 --> 01:40:48,688
If it's not, it's one of those other things.

1180
01:40:48,688 --> 01:40:51,488
You can check out the pool.

1181
01:40:51,488 --> 01:40:54,488
Pool is itself open source, and I think is actually,

1182
01:40:54,488 --> 01:40:55,488
I'm not gonna say it's better

1183
01:40:55,488 --> 01:40:57,448
than existing pool software at all,

1184
01:40:57,448 --> 01:40:59,048
but it does do some cool things

1185
01:40:59,048 --> 01:41:02,208
that traditional pool software does not do,

1186
01:41:02,208 --> 01:41:04,528
including it pays people out on the L2,

1187
01:41:05,368 --> 01:41:06,608
which means that it can pay you out

1188
01:41:06,608 --> 01:41:08,688
much, much more frequently,

1189
01:41:08,688 --> 01:41:09,808
and it can pay out, you know,

1190
01:41:09,808 --> 01:41:11,848
you could have four billion people mining,

1191
01:41:11,848 --> 01:41:13,688
and it would still be working.

1192
01:41:13,688 --> 01:41:16,288
So that is pretty neat,

1193
01:41:16,288 --> 01:41:19,808
and I don't know why the existing mining pools

1194
01:41:19,808 --> 01:41:24,128
in BTC are not open source, but they aren't.

1195
01:41:24,128 --> 01:41:26,168
And ours is, so maybe ours will, you know,

1196
01:41:26,168 --> 01:41:28,208
ours is just like a skeleton right now,

1197
01:41:28,208 --> 01:41:30,328
but of course, since it's open source,

1198
01:41:30,328 --> 01:41:31,728
and since we have LLMs,

1199
01:41:31,728 --> 01:41:34,448
and it's very easy for me to imagine

1200
01:41:34,448 --> 01:41:38,168
that over time, over a few months,

1201
01:41:38,168 --> 01:41:40,008
the pool would just start to gain

1202
01:41:40,008 --> 01:41:43,888
all of this functionality and performance and convenience

1203
01:41:43,888 --> 01:41:45,088
just because it's open source.

1204
01:41:45,088 --> 01:41:46,288
I don't know why.

1205
01:41:46,288 --> 01:41:49,208
I tried to look for, as a Bitcoiner,

1206
01:41:49,208 --> 01:41:51,888
just out of curiosity, I was trying to find out like,

1207
01:41:51,888 --> 01:41:53,528
oh, how do all these pools work?

1208
01:41:54,608 --> 01:41:56,648
And I really couldn't find,

1209
01:41:56,648 --> 01:41:58,088
ironically, you know, I didn't look,

1210
01:41:58,088 --> 01:42:00,088
I didn't look and see if Ocean is open source.

1211
01:42:00,088 --> 01:42:01,808
Maybe Ocean is the one that is open source,

1212
01:42:01,808 --> 01:42:03,528
but I disagree with an enormous number

1213
01:42:03,528 --> 01:42:05,488
of design decisions with Luke,

1214
01:42:05,488 --> 01:42:07,528
and I think PPS is the way to go.

1215
01:42:07,528 --> 01:42:09,488
PPS is way better, I think.

1216
01:42:09,488 --> 01:42:11,048
Luke hates PPS, so.

1217
01:42:11,048 --> 01:42:12,968
So that's funny that maybe Ocean is,

1218
01:42:12,968 --> 01:42:14,448
I didn't look, maybe it's not.

1219
01:42:14,448 --> 01:42:15,888
That would be even more bizarre if it's not.

1220
01:42:15,888 --> 01:42:17,608
I don't know why, you know,

1221
01:42:17,608 --> 01:42:19,408
it's really hard to find this mining pool software.

1222
01:42:19,408 --> 01:42:21,048
So we just made some,

1223
01:42:21,048 --> 01:42:22,808
one of the people working for us

1224
01:42:22,808 --> 01:42:27,208
was one of the, a really good contributor to Stratum V2,

1225
01:42:27,208 --> 01:42:29,248
but he and I both think Stratum V2

1226
01:42:29,248 --> 01:42:30,328
is actually just not that good,

1227
01:42:30,328 --> 01:42:31,408
and you can do a lot better.

1228
01:42:31,408 --> 01:42:34,328
So we were, so that's part of the pool.

1229
01:42:35,448 --> 01:42:37,768
And it is SHA-256 mine, the same as BTC.

1230
01:42:37,768 --> 01:42:39,928
It's basically the L1 is almost,

1231
01:42:39,928 --> 01:42:43,208
the layer one is basically exactly the same as Bitcoin Core.

1232
01:42:43,208 --> 01:42:44,728
And if you go to the GitHub,

1233
01:42:44,728 --> 01:42:46,888
you'll see that we didn't even rename it

1234
01:42:46,888 --> 01:42:49,728
because if you rename it, it breaks a bunch of tests.

1235
01:42:49,728 --> 01:42:51,888
So it's just called Bitcoin,

1236
01:42:51,888 --> 01:42:54,128
and I changed the README,

1237
01:42:54,128 --> 01:42:57,728
but it's just Bitcoin, and it will remain so

1238
01:42:57,728 --> 01:43:00,848
because as Bitcoin releases version 32, 33, 34,

1239
01:43:00,848 --> 01:43:03,248
we'll just keep copying the changes.

1240
01:43:03,248 --> 01:43:07,408
So the plan is not to compete with Bitcoin on L1,

1241
01:43:07,408 --> 01:43:12,408
and the plan is to copy L1,

1242
01:43:13,328 --> 01:43:14,288
copy Bitcoin Core,

1243
01:43:14,288 --> 01:43:16,488
so that you just keep whatever you like about that,

1244
01:43:16,488 --> 01:43:19,088
including the SHA-256 mining.

1245
01:43:20,488 --> 01:43:24,968
Okay, I think that if some of the audience

1246
01:43:24,968 --> 01:43:28,728
have some questions, you can go to ekash.com,

1247
01:43:28,728 --> 01:43:33,728
and like 95, 99% of these questions will be answered there.

1248
01:43:34,928 --> 01:43:38,048
There is a link to Ekash GitHub there.

1249
01:43:38,048 --> 01:43:42,368
So before asking questions, go to ekash.com,

1250
01:43:42,368 --> 01:43:45,008
and you will find most of your answers there.

1251
01:43:46,248 --> 01:43:49,688
I guess that we're done for today.

1252
01:43:50,528 --> 01:43:53,088
Thank you for this interesting conversation.

1253
01:43:53,088 --> 01:43:56,368
It was really, I really had fun

1254
01:43:56,368 --> 01:43:59,488
because today I learned something new.

1255
01:43:59,488 --> 01:44:04,488
I changed my mind to something,

1256
01:44:04,608 --> 01:44:06,368
some perspectives maybe,

1257
01:44:06,368 --> 01:44:10,248
so it was very useful and interesting.

1258
01:44:10,248 --> 01:44:14,008
You're always welcome on our online streams,

1259
01:44:14,008 --> 01:44:16,088
and maybe when the world will finish,

1260
01:44:16,088 --> 01:44:18,568
we will wait for you to offline conference,

1261
01:44:18,568 --> 01:44:23,568
which is, we host a conference each year in Kyiv.

1262
01:44:23,968 --> 01:44:28,488
So whenever the world will finish, you're welcome.

1263
01:44:29,368 --> 01:44:31,248
Great, hopefully soon.

1264
01:44:31,248 --> 01:44:32,848
Yeah, hopefully.

1265
01:44:32,848 --> 01:44:35,168
2% of you talking about.

1266
01:44:35,168 --> 01:44:38,368
Yeah, well, I mean, how much longer can it go on?

1267
01:44:38,368 --> 01:44:40,288
I mean, I'm sure it might be,

1268
01:44:40,288 --> 01:44:42,248
I don't know, we've all heard this and that,

1269
01:44:42,248 --> 01:44:43,368
like rumors and things,

1270
01:44:43,368 --> 01:44:47,088
but it might be that it might get a little bit worse

1271
01:44:47,088 --> 01:44:48,528
before it ends.

1272
01:44:48,528 --> 01:44:50,368
But I just hope, you just think like,

1273
01:44:50,368 --> 01:44:51,728
oh, it's just dragging on and on,

1274
01:44:51,728 --> 01:44:55,688
and how much support does Vladimir Putin still have

1275
01:44:55,688 --> 01:44:59,448
in Russia and just keep this moving on?

1276
01:44:59,448 --> 01:45:02,368
But I've also heard that he's very, very, very skilled at,

1277
01:45:03,248 --> 01:45:04,368
you know, sticking around.

1278
01:45:04,368 --> 01:45:06,088
So that's too bad.

1279
01:45:07,408 --> 01:45:08,408
We'll win for sure.

1280
01:45:08,408 --> 01:45:10,328
So it's just a matter of time.

1281
01:45:13,208 --> 01:45:15,488
Okay, so thank you.

1282
01:45:15,528 --> 01:45:20,528
And you can still, I guess, ask questions in the comments

1283
01:45:20,728 --> 01:45:23,888
after the live stream will finish.

1284
01:45:23,888 --> 01:45:28,488
Maybe the most interesting of them we will ask in text.

1285
01:45:28,488 --> 01:45:30,248
If Paul will have time,

1286
01:45:30,248 --> 01:45:32,848
we'll post some article maybe later.

1287
01:45:32,848 --> 01:45:37,848
So, but you can find answers on hikesh.com one more time.

1288
01:45:40,448 --> 01:45:43,288
It'll be much easier and faster.

1289
01:45:43,288 --> 01:45:44,808
Okay, thank you.

1290
01:45:44,808 --> 01:45:46,728
It was Paul Sztorc,

1291
01:45:46,728 --> 01:45:51,728
the founder and CEO at Layer 2 Labs

1292
01:45:52,408 --> 01:45:54,608
and founder at ekash.com,

1293
01:45:54,608 --> 01:45:59,608
the fork of Bitcoin that will go live like in 18 days,

1294
01:46:00,488 --> 01:46:03,808
24 hours, nine minutes, and 20 seconds.

1295
01:46:03,808 --> 01:46:07,888
It's also available on ekash.com,

1296
01:46:07,888 --> 01:46:10,528
so you can watch it online.

1297
01:46:10,528 --> 01:46:12,568
Okay, have a good one.

1298
01:46:12,568 --> 01:46:14,008
Thank you for coming.

1299
01:46:14,048 --> 01:46:14,888
Bye-bye.

1300
01:46:14,888 --> 01:46:15,848
Yeah, thanks very much.

1301
01:46:17,408 --> 01:46:20,408
♪♪♪