1 00:00:01,996 --> 00:00:04,836 Hello, and welcome to Drivechain Twitter Spaces. 2 00:00:04,836 --> 00:00:09,836 Today is Monday, March 20th, 2023. 3 00:00:11,236 --> 00:00:13,956 This is Henry at LayerTwo Labs. 4 00:00:13,956 --> 00:00:18,396 I'm thrilled to have this conversation with all of you today, 5 00:00:18,396 --> 00:00:20,156 those listening live on Twitter, 6 00:00:20,156 --> 00:00:22,396 as well as those who listen on demand later. 7 00:00:24,276 --> 00:00:29,116 Drivechain is picking up steam every day. 8 00:00:29,156 --> 00:00:32,836 We are seven years into this epic quest 9 00:00:32,836 --> 00:00:36,635 for peer-to-peer sidechains on Bitcoin. 10 00:00:39,036 --> 00:00:44,036 The inspiration for Drivechain is so fascinating. 11 00:00:45,595 --> 00:00:49,676 Drivechain would enable greater extensibility for Bitcoin. 12 00:00:49,676 --> 00:00:52,115 It would enable other protocols to be built 13 00:00:52,115 --> 00:00:55,676 on top of Bitcoin in a way that would internalize 14 00:00:55,676 --> 00:01:00,676 to Bitcoin the value created on those other protocols. 15 00:01:00,836 --> 00:01:04,156 So instead of a new protocol being an altcoin, 16 00:01:04,156 --> 00:01:06,076 which competes existentially 17 00:01:06,076 --> 00:01:08,515 for monetary premium against Bitcoin, 18 00:01:09,996 --> 00:01:12,875 the other blockchain would be a merged-mined sidechain 19 00:01:12,875 --> 00:01:16,116 of Bitcoin with a miner-controlled two-way peg, 20 00:01:17,275 --> 00:01:22,195 meaning that demand for the token of the sidechain 21 00:01:22,195 --> 00:01:24,555 is demand for Bitcoin, 22 00:01:24,555 --> 00:01:26,915 and fees paid on the sidechain 23 00:01:26,915 --> 00:01:29,275 are fees paid to Bitcoin miners. 24 00:01:31,955 --> 00:01:35,796 So what Drivechain's all about is enabling Bitcoin 25 00:01:35,796 --> 00:01:39,875 to be a multi-chain system 26 00:01:39,875 --> 00:01:41,555 in which there is a base layer 27 00:01:42,915 --> 00:01:45,635 where BTC is the native asset, 28 00:01:46,676 --> 00:01:50,316 and then there are a multitude of sidechains 29 00:01:50,316 --> 00:01:53,996 where synthetic Bitcoin is the asset, 30 00:01:54,875 --> 00:01:56,195 the primary asset, 31 00:01:56,195 --> 00:02:00,875 and all of the demand for the sidechain token 32 00:02:00,875 --> 00:02:03,595 is indirectly demand for Bitcoin. 33 00:02:03,595 --> 00:02:08,595 So the vision, in its most optimistic sense, 34 00:02:09,396 --> 00:02:12,195 is a vision that all of the altcoins 35 00:02:12,195 --> 00:02:16,516 could be instead sidechains of Bitcoin, 36 00:02:16,516 --> 00:02:19,835 and this vision would have Bitcoin 37 00:02:21,555 --> 00:02:24,596 without competition as an L1, 38 00:02:24,596 --> 00:02:28,716 and this vision, in its most optimistic sense, 39 00:02:28,716 --> 00:02:33,516 would include an extraordinary high amount of fees 40 00:02:33,516 --> 00:02:37,596 paid to the Bitcoin miners forever from fees, 41 00:02:37,596 --> 00:02:40,516 and a huge market cap for Bitcoin, 42 00:02:40,516 --> 00:02:44,195 and imagine if all the altcoin users were Bitcoiners, 43 00:02:44,195 --> 00:02:47,035 were using Bitcoin as their layer one 44 00:02:47,035 --> 00:02:49,115 to support their sidechain, 45 00:02:49,115 --> 00:02:51,555 then they would all be supporting Bitcoin 46 00:02:51,555 --> 00:02:54,835 politically and socially and economically, 47 00:02:54,835 --> 00:02:58,316 and the whole crypto community would be united on Bitcoin. 48 00:02:58,316 --> 00:02:59,755 That's the Drivechain vision, 49 00:02:59,755 --> 00:03:02,755 and I think if Drivechain were adopted, 50 00:03:02,755 --> 00:03:07,635 then some degree of that vision would be realized, 51 00:03:07,635 --> 00:03:10,635 maybe 5%, maybe 95%. 52 00:03:10,635 --> 00:03:12,475 We don't know unless we try it. 53 00:03:14,436 --> 00:03:16,956 So there has been for many years now in Bitcoin, 54 00:03:16,956 --> 00:03:20,275 since 2015, an ongoing interesting debate 55 00:03:20,275 --> 00:03:23,835 about the merits of Drivechain, the pros and cons. 56 00:03:23,835 --> 00:03:27,395 There definitely have been major misunderstandings 57 00:03:27,395 --> 00:03:32,156 about Drivechain, and that has led to a lot of confusion 58 00:03:32,156 --> 00:03:35,115 and dissent, skepticism, and criticism, 59 00:03:36,076 --> 00:03:39,716 all of which has been thoroughly discussed and debunked, 60 00:03:39,716 --> 00:03:42,555 I think, in the Drivechain literature, 61 00:03:42,596 --> 00:03:45,716 which is at drivechain.info and elsewhere. 62 00:03:46,596 --> 00:03:49,716 Drivechain.info is a great resource for Drivechain. 63 00:03:49,716 --> 00:03:53,236 Another great one is Fiatjaf's website, 64 00:03:53,236 --> 00:03:57,876 which is fiatjaf.com, and then you click on Bitcoin, 65 00:03:57,876 --> 00:04:00,796 and then click on Drivechain, and then you'll see his essay. 66 00:04:00,796 --> 00:04:03,796 Fiatjaf is the creator of Nostr, 67 00:04:03,796 --> 00:04:07,596 and one of Drivechain's most vocal supporters. 68 00:04:08,475 --> 00:04:10,236 He has written tweets like, 69 00:04:11,156 --> 00:04:14,035 if we don't adopt Drivechain, 70 00:04:14,035 --> 00:04:17,876 then all the work of thousands for the last 13 years 71 00:04:17,876 --> 00:04:19,395 will have been in vain, 72 00:04:19,395 --> 00:04:22,996 which implies Bitcoin might fail without Drivechain, 73 00:04:22,996 --> 00:04:26,235 which is a view I personally sympathize with. 74 00:04:26,235 --> 00:04:29,955 I think it's critical for Bitcoin to maintain 75 00:04:29,955 --> 00:04:33,515 its market cap dominance and grow that dominance 76 00:04:33,515 --> 00:04:37,395 and not allow its competitors to have a larger value, 77 00:04:37,436 --> 00:04:38,955 to have a larger user base, 78 00:04:38,955 --> 00:04:42,756 to have a larger economic presence, 79 00:04:42,756 --> 00:04:45,316 to have a larger network effect. 80 00:04:45,316 --> 00:04:46,835 All of those things are important 81 00:04:46,835 --> 00:04:49,436 with respect to maintaining Bitcoin's narrative 82 00:04:49,436 --> 00:04:51,196 of monetization, 83 00:04:51,196 --> 00:04:53,916 its narrative of becoming the world's money, 84 00:04:53,916 --> 00:04:58,916 becoming the platform for the world's blockchain activity. 85 00:04:59,515 --> 00:05:04,316 So one of the ideas that we should relinquish 86 00:05:04,316 --> 00:05:09,316 is this notion that blockchain is only good for money. 87 00:05:10,436 --> 00:05:13,515 Instead, we should adopt Satoshi's view, 88 00:05:13,515 --> 00:05:17,996 which is that blockchain can do a multitude of things, 89 00:05:17,996 --> 00:05:20,235 and the market should decide, 90 00:05:21,515 --> 00:05:23,955 and developers should have an open mind 91 00:05:23,955 --> 00:05:26,316 about what the market may want, 92 00:05:26,316 --> 00:05:30,876 and developers for Bitcoin should design, 93 00:05:30,876 --> 00:05:33,115 should ensure that Bitcoin is designed in a way 94 00:05:33,115 --> 00:05:36,515 that allows for people to do what they want with it. 95 00:05:36,515 --> 00:05:41,515 Because if we're judgmental and officious and puritanical 96 00:05:42,355 --> 00:05:46,515 about what Bitcoin should be and how it should be, 97 00:05:46,515 --> 00:05:51,436 then other protocols will have a more permissive, 98 00:05:51,436 --> 00:05:54,916 flexible design, and they will accrue value 99 00:05:54,916 --> 00:05:58,636 because users will have to go to them for what they want. 100 00:05:59,636 --> 00:06:04,476 So I think that the more capitalistic free market approach 101 00:06:04,476 --> 00:06:08,275 is to have Bitcoin include extensibility 102 00:06:08,275 --> 00:06:11,476 so that its higher layers can be used 103 00:06:11,476 --> 00:06:14,115 in whatever way people want to use them, 104 00:06:14,115 --> 00:06:17,515 and that way people don't have to leave Bitcoin 105 00:06:17,515 --> 00:06:19,916 to do the things they want to do. 106 00:06:19,916 --> 00:06:21,555 And what do they want to do? 107 00:06:21,555 --> 00:06:26,036 They want to have blockchain-based, 108 00:06:26,036 --> 00:06:29,636 peer-to-peer-inspired arrangements 109 00:06:29,636 --> 00:06:31,196 for all kinds of applications, 110 00:06:31,196 --> 00:06:34,996 like larger blocks for scaling, 111 00:06:36,316 --> 00:06:40,476 complex code for privacy, 112 00:06:40,476 --> 00:06:44,916 and perhaps name service, 113 00:06:44,916 --> 00:06:47,916 and Oracle networks, 114 00:06:47,916 --> 00:06:50,795 and other interesting applications. 115 00:06:50,795 --> 00:06:52,916 In other words, the cypherpunk dream 116 00:06:52,955 --> 00:06:56,515 of technology-based society, 117 00:06:56,515 --> 00:07:01,515 moving more commerce and human activity to the blockchain, 118 00:07:02,196 --> 00:07:07,115 and is one way to give people more options 119 00:07:07,115 --> 00:07:11,555 that are more reliable and powerful 120 00:07:11,555 --> 00:07:14,515 in the realm of technology, communication, and commerce. 121 00:07:14,515 --> 00:07:16,876 So Bitcoin should enable all of that 122 00:07:16,876 --> 00:07:18,395 and let the market decide. 123 00:07:18,395 --> 00:07:20,596 So Drivechain's all about enabling a multitude 124 00:07:20,596 --> 00:07:23,275 of sidechains on Bitcoin that are peer-to-peer, 125 00:07:23,275 --> 00:07:24,835 miner control pegs. 126 00:07:24,835 --> 00:07:27,876 It would be an interesting step forward for Bitcoin, 127 00:07:27,876 --> 00:07:31,835 and perhaps something that would strengthen 128 00:07:31,835 --> 00:07:36,835 Bitcoin's community in many ways at this moment. 129 00:07:40,795 --> 00:07:44,955 Everyone is welcome to come on up and chat if you'd like. 130 00:07:46,395 --> 00:07:49,835 We have these spaces twice a week on Mondays 131 00:07:49,835 --> 00:07:54,835 and on Thursdays at 9.30 a.m. West Coast time. 132 00:07:54,955 --> 00:07:57,436 I'm in Los Angeles, and it's my pleasure 133 00:07:57,436 --> 00:08:00,756 to be a part of LayerTwo Labs and host these conversations. 134 00:08:02,876 --> 00:08:05,395 I used to host them as a volunteer. 135 00:08:05,395 --> 00:08:08,636 So I just did it as a volunteer, 136 00:08:08,636 --> 00:08:13,636 and I found my way as a result of that to this company, 137 00:08:14,075 --> 00:08:16,555 which is one of the parties 138 00:08:16,555 --> 00:08:19,355 that is highly focused on Drivechains 139 00:08:20,596 --> 00:08:24,955 and making Bitcoin more expressive, more interesting, 140 00:08:24,955 --> 00:08:27,235 having more developers in Bitcoin, 141 00:08:27,235 --> 00:08:29,955 not losing development and users to altcoins. 142 00:08:30,955 --> 00:08:33,036 In case people are interested in just a summary 143 00:08:33,036 --> 00:08:34,956 of what Drivechain's all about, 144 00:08:34,956 --> 00:08:36,595 let me give my personal take. 145 00:08:36,595 --> 00:08:40,636 Drivechain's about increasing the extensibility of Bitcoin, 146 00:08:40,636 --> 00:08:43,555 increasing the things that people can build on Bitcoin. 147 00:08:43,555 --> 00:08:46,636 It's all about innovation for Bitcoin, 148 00:08:46,636 --> 00:08:48,035 and there are a bunch of interesting 149 00:08:48,035 --> 00:08:51,876 secondary possible results from that. 150 00:08:51,876 --> 00:08:55,316 So number one, what we know for sure 151 00:08:55,316 --> 00:08:58,076 is that Drivechain is designed 152 00:08:58,076 --> 00:09:00,516 to enable a miner control two-way peg 153 00:09:00,516 --> 00:09:02,475 and blind merge mining. 154 00:09:02,475 --> 00:09:05,355 So to put it in plain English, 155 00:09:05,355 --> 00:09:09,316 Drivechain enables enhanced facilities 156 00:09:11,196 --> 00:09:13,355 for Bitcoin sidechains. 157 00:09:13,396 --> 00:09:15,355 Drivechain enables enhanced facilities 158 00:09:15,355 --> 00:09:16,915 for Bitcoin sidechains. 159 00:09:16,915 --> 00:09:19,155 It gives people more options 160 00:09:19,155 --> 00:09:21,956 for how they wanna have their sidechain on Bitcoin. 161 00:09:23,475 --> 00:09:27,475 But the profound economic consequences of that, 162 00:09:28,316 --> 00:09:31,235 in my view, would be potentially 163 00:09:31,235 --> 00:09:34,355 layer one ossification being achieved, 164 00:09:34,355 --> 00:09:37,155 or at least, to put it more mildly, 165 00:09:37,155 --> 00:09:40,355 a higher degree of potential ossification 166 00:09:40,355 --> 00:09:42,915 might be achieved as a result of Drivechain, 167 00:09:43,436 --> 00:09:45,876 because when you increase extensibility, 168 00:09:45,876 --> 00:09:48,996 when you increase the extensibility of Bitcoin, 169 00:09:48,996 --> 00:09:51,876 you therefore reduce the pressure 170 00:09:51,876 --> 00:09:55,355 that the community experiences on an ongoing basis 171 00:09:55,355 --> 00:09:57,756 to upgrade Bitcoin on layer one, 172 00:09:57,756 --> 00:10:00,276 because you don't need to change layer one as much 173 00:10:00,276 --> 00:10:02,756 if you can do more things on layer two. 174 00:10:02,756 --> 00:10:05,836 So that is what ossification of layer one is all about, 175 00:10:05,836 --> 00:10:08,316 and Drivechain would strengthen 176 00:10:08,316 --> 00:10:10,155 Bitcoin's layer one ossification. 177 00:10:10,155 --> 00:10:12,355 It wouldn't guarantee it for 1,000 years, 178 00:10:12,715 --> 00:10:14,276 but it would strengthen it 179 00:10:14,276 --> 00:10:16,155 in the view of Drivechain proponents. 180 00:10:17,035 --> 00:10:20,595 Drivechain would also potentially increase the fee revenue 181 00:10:20,595 --> 00:10:22,196 that layer one miners receive. 182 00:10:22,196 --> 00:10:25,555 This is the security budget problem of Bitcoin, 183 00:10:25,555 --> 00:10:29,436 that the fees are low, generally speaking, 184 00:10:29,436 --> 00:10:32,636 in the view of some analysts, including me, 185 00:10:32,636 --> 00:10:36,516 and Drivechain would aim to increase them, 186 00:10:38,396 --> 00:10:40,756 which would solve the security budget problem. 187 00:10:41,756 --> 00:10:42,996 Of course, one might point out, 188 00:10:42,996 --> 00:10:45,316 well, Henry, the fees are going up lately 189 00:10:45,316 --> 00:10:47,956 because of ordinals and inscriptions, 190 00:10:47,956 --> 00:10:51,555 but I think that is not going to be a permanent feature 191 00:10:51,555 --> 00:10:53,155 of Bitcoin's fee market, 192 00:10:53,155 --> 00:10:55,595 and I think in a year from now, 193 00:10:55,595 --> 00:10:59,155 we'll see fees back down to a dollar a transaction 194 00:10:59,155 --> 00:11:04,155 and back down to half a million dollars a day in fees, 195 00:11:04,956 --> 00:11:06,276 not much more. 196 00:11:06,276 --> 00:11:09,276 Right now, we might be over a million dollars a day in fees, 197 00:11:09,555 --> 00:11:12,756 but over the last five years, during many periods, 198 00:11:12,756 --> 00:11:13,956 the fees weren't very high. 199 00:11:13,956 --> 00:11:16,035 There's occasional spikes. 200 00:11:16,035 --> 00:11:19,076 The whole fee market conversation is so interesting. 201 00:11:19,076 --> 00:11:21,475 It is not the only inspiration for Drivechain, of course, 202 00:11:21,475 --> 00:11:23,956 and back when Drivechain was conceived, 203 00:11:23,956 --> 00:11:27,436 no one was even talking about the security budget problem. 204 00:11:27,436 --> 00:11:28,756 Using the word security budget, 205 00:11:28,756 --> 00:11:31,915 that term came into being in 2018 206 00:11:31,915 --> 00:11:35,115 with a blog post by Jordan McKinney, 207 00:11:35,115 --> 00:11:39,675 who naturally has become an Ethereum-focused developer 208 00:11:39,675 --> 00:11:44,675 because of the security budget problem and other issues. 209 00:11:44,675 --> 00:11:47,675 A lot of Bitcoiners have left Bitcoin 210 00:11:47,675 --> 00:11:50,316 to create in the altcoin space 211 00:11:50,316 --> 00:11:54,555 because of the lack of Drivechain, in my opinion. 212 00:11:54,555 --> 00:11:56,996 So that's another inspiration for Drivechain. 213 00:11:56,996 --> 00:11:59,516 It's all about keeping the Bitcoin community together 214 00:11:59,516 --> 00:12:02,836 and avoiding hard forks and avoiding attrition. 215 00:12:02,836 --> 00:12:05,715 So hard forks are a form of attrition, 216 00:12:05,715 --> 00:12:07,316 but there can also simply be attrition 217 00:12:07,316 --> 00:12:10,436 in the form of just total departure from Bitcoin 218 00:12:10,436 --> 00:12:14,155 and building in a more expressive platform like Ethereum. 219 00:12:14,155 --> 00:12:17,956 So what Bitcoin would do is enable expressive platforms 220 00:12:17,956 --> 00:12:19,555 like Ethereum as sidechains. 221 00:12:19,555 --> 00:12:21,956 In fact, there is a clone of Ethereum 222 00:12:21,956 --> 00:12:23,675 in the Bitcoin testnet, 223 00:12:24,636 --> 00:12:26,675 in the Bitcoin Drivechain testnet. 224 00:12:26,675 --> 00:12:27,516 They have two clones. 225 00:12:27,516 --> 00:12:30,715 One is of Zcash and the other is of Ethereum, 226 00:12:30,715 --> 00:12:32,595 and people interested in details about that 227 00:12:33,355 --> 00:12:35,795 should check it out and learn about it there. 228 00:12:35,795 --> 00:12:36,996 You can download software. 229 00:12:36,996 --> 00:12:38,595 You can run the node. 230 00:12:38,595 --> 00:12:40,076 You can do all kinds of things 231 00:12:40,076 --> 00:12:41,555 and join the Telegram group 232 00:12:41,555 --> 00:12:44,516 where over 700 people have joined, 233 00:12:44,516 --> 00:12:47,276 and there's active discussion every day. 234 00:12:47,276 --> 00:12:48,115 Every day of the year, 235 00:12:48,115 --> 00:12:50,276 people are chatting about Drivechain 236 00:12:50,276 --> 00:12:51,956 on the Drivechain Telegram group. 237 00:12:51,956 --> 00:12:53,396 It's free, it's public. 238 00:12:53,396 --> 00:12:56,355 Join, learn, and listen, and participate. 239 00:12:57,996 --> 00:12:59,595 You can go to the Telegram group 240 00:12:59,595 --> 00:13:02,355 by going to drivechain.info 241 00:13:03,115 --> 00:13:05,076 and then you click on Telegram, 242 00:13:05,076 --> 00:13:07,396 and then it'll take you to the Telegram group. 243 00:13:08,355 --> 00:13:09,876 You can use your name like I do, 244 00:13:09,876 --> 00:13:12,715 or you can use a pseudonym like Satoshi did. 245 00:13:13,996 --> 00:13:15,756 Either is fine. 246 00:13:15,756 --> 00:13:19,235 You don't have to dox yourself that you're a DriveChainer. 247 00:13:19,235 --> 00:13:22,715 Drivechain is a little bit controversial. 248 00:13:22,715 --> 00:13:25,595 Some people in Bitcoin really don't like it. 249 00:13:25,595 --> 00:13:27,475 Peter Todd doesn't like it. 250 00:13:27,475 --> 00:13:29,035 Shinobi doesn't like it. 251 00:13:30,516 --> 00:13:32,316 Many people do like it, though. 252 00:13:33,115 --> 00:13:36,115 Many of the most notable Bitcoiners support Drivechain. 253 00:13:36,115 --> 00:13:39,316 We've got Adam Back, we've got Fiatjaf, 254 00:13:40,316 --> 00:13:45,316 and I personally made a list of a huge number of them, 255 00:13:45,636 --> 00:13:49,555 like over 50 people who have tweeted 256 00:13:49,555 --> 00:13:53,436 about Drivechain favorably to varying degrees of support. 257 00:13:53,436 --> 00:13:56,636 We've got Adam Back saying on stage last year, 258 00:13:56,636 --> 00:13:59,715 Drivechain, this is the founder and CEO of Blockstream, 259 00:13:59,715 --> 00:14:01,316 co-founder and CEO. 260 00:14:01,316 --> 00:14:04,155 Pretty cool, and arguably could have been more important 261 00:14:04,155 --> 00:14:06,516 or useful than Taproot. 262 00:14:06,516 --> 00:14:08,915 So that's a pretty good statement. 263 00:14:08,915 --> 00:14:12,155 He also wrote props to Truthcoin and team 264 00:14:12,155 --> 00:14:15,076 for implementing and validating Drivechain design. 265 00:14:15,076 --> 00:14:18,436 So, wow, implementing and validating Drivechain design, 266 00:14:18,436 --> 00:14:23,355 a pretty crystal clear note of support. 267 00:14:23,355 --> 00:14:25,076 And then more recently, 268 00:14:25,076 --> 00:14:29,915 he slightly increased the tone of his rhetoric. 269 00:14:29,915 --> 00:14:30,756 I noted that. 270 00:14:30,756 --> 00:14:32,595 He tweeted more recently, 271 00:14:32,595 --> 00:14:37,595 we're probably going to need sidechains slash Drivechains 272 00:14:37,876 --> 00:14:42,595 where we're going to onboard the next billion users soon. 273 00:14:44,436 --> 00:14:48,035 So he's saying we need Drivechains soon. 274 00:14:49,555 --> 00:14:50,475 Quite a statement. 275 00:14:52,115 --> 00:14:56,876 So I look forward to seeing his rhetoric increase in nature. 276 00:14:57,836 --> 00:15:00,915 Fiatjaf has written, Drivechain is our only hope. 277 00:15:02,516 --> 00:15:05,155 We need Drivechain or all the work thousands 278 00:15:05,155 --> 00:15:07,516 in the last 13 years will have been in vain. 279 00:15:09,355 --> 00:15:12,196 So that is the creator of Nostr 280 00:15:12,196 --> 00:15:16,355 who has endorsed Drivechain in those terms. 281 00:15:17,355 --> 00:15:20,276 There also have been favorable comments 282 00:15:20,276 --> 00:15:24,035 by people like Ruben Samson who wrote, 283 00:15:24,035 --> 00:15:26,316 I would like to see Drivechains happen 284 00:15:26,756 --> 00:15:30,155 and run it as an experiment and see how it goes. 285 00:15:30,155 --> 00:15:34,795 Of course, with Ruben, I must be very respectful 286 00:15:34,795 --> 00:15:37,996 to the context in which he said that quote. 287 00:15:37,996 --> 00:15:42,715 And I don't want to be confusing anyone. 288 00:15:42,715 --> 00:15:47,316 He has not stated that he supports Drivechain right now. 289 00:15:48,876 --> 00:15:51,355 In the context of his whole statement, if you read it, 290 00:15:51,355 --> 00:15:54,235 he basically is saying he thinks it's interesting 291 00:15:54,276 --> 00:15:56,316 and he's not sure if it would work, 292 00:15:56,316 --> 00:15:59,555 but he would like to see if the community supports it, 293 00:15:59,555 --> 00:16:02,316 he would be very interested to see how it goes. 294 00:16:02,316 --> 00:16:04,795 So he has what you could describe 295 00:16:04,795 --> 00:16:07,876 as a neutral or favorable opinion. 296 00:16:07,876 --> 00:16:10,996 I wouldn't call him a outright supporter 297 00:16:10,996 --> 00:16:13,436 in the way that Fiatjaf or Adam Back 298 00:16:13,436 --> 00:16:15,396 seem to be based on their statements. 299 00:16:16,795 --> 00:16:19,756 And you can read a whole bunch of other people. 300 00:16:19,756 --> 00:16:22,076 I've collected over 50 different people's tweets 301 00:16:22,076 --> 00:16:26,316 and articles on Drivechain at the website, 302 00:16:26,316 --> 00:16:29,636 drivechain.info forward slash friends. 303 00:16:30,715 --> 00:16:33,516 So that's it, drivechain.info forward slash friends. 304 00:16:33,516 --> 00:16:35,675 Some of the people in the audience here 305 00:16:35,675 --> 00:16:39,316 will see their own statements in this list. 306 00:16:39,316 --> 00:16:41,836 So anyone who tweets about Drivechain, 307 00:16:41,836 --> 00:16:44,076 I'm gonna see it and I'm gonna put it on this list 308 00:16:44,076 --> 00:16:45,436 if I like it. 309 00:16:45,436 --> 00:16:46,836 So that's what happens. 310 00:16:47,836 --> 00:16:51,276 And then, yeah, so just to kind of wrap up, 311 00:16:51,516 --> 00:16:55,756 the summary, the way that you summarize Drivechain 312 00:16:55,756 --> 00:16:57,355 says a lot about how you think about it 313 00:16:57,355 --> 00:16:58,915 and what you think is at stake. 314 00:16:58,915 --> 00:17:00,715 So some people would say Drivechain, 315 00:17:00,715 --> 00:17:04,355 oh, it's not necessary, it's just no good, uninteresting, 316 00:17:04,355 --> 00:17:08,276 but I see it profoundly important to Bitcoin 317 00:17:08,276 --> 00:17:12,516 that Drivechain would increase Bitcoin extensibility, 318 00:17:12,516 --> 00:17:14,796 meaning the ability to customize 319 00:17:14,796 --> 00:17:18,235 and create on top of Bitcoin as a developer. 320 00:17:19,235 --> 00:17:21,235 And that's what it's all about. 321 00:17:21,235 --> 00:17:22,676 That's how Adam Back talks about it. 322 00:17:22,676 --> 00:17:27,636 He just uses the word innovation and the word extensibility. 323 00:17:27,636 --> 00:17:30,516 So it's all about making Bitcoin more interesting. 324 00:17:30,516 --> 00:17:33,955 It's all about growing Bitcoin with high-tech new ideas 325 00:17:33,955 --> 00:17:35,115 on these sidechains. 326 00:17:36,115 --> 00:17:40,636 And the three or four consequences of doing that 327 00:17:40,636 --> 00:17:42,955 that are so impactful potentially, 328 00:17:42,955 --> 00:17:45,396 which I like to add to the discussion are, 329 00:17:45,556 --> 00:17:48,435 once you get that innovation and extensibility, 330 00:17:48,435 --> 00:17:51,955 what you will also get from Drivechain quite possibly is 331 00:17:51,955 --> 00:17:55,075 layer one ossification, higher fees, 332 00:17:55,075 --> 00:17:58,556 and migration of altcoin development 333 00:17:58,556 --> 00:18:01,235 and users and value to Bitcoin, 334 00:18:01,235 --> 00:18:04,036 meaning higher dominance for Bitcoin, 335 00:18:04,036 --> 00:18:05,676 lower value for altcoins. 336 00:18:06,996 --> 00:18:10,595 For example, suppose the Zcash users 337 00:18:10,595 --> 00:18:12,916 were to completely migrate, 338 00:18:12,955 --> 00:18:17,516 completely migrate from the Zcash altcoin 339 00:18:17,516 --> 00:18:22,315 to the Zcash sidechain, hypothetically. 340 00:18:22,315 --> 00:18:23,516 If they were to do that, 341 00:18:26,435 --> 00:18:30,556 the value of the Zcash altcoin would approach zero 342 00:18:30,556 --> 00:18:35,195 and the value of Bitcoin would be higher as a result. 343 00:18:36,516 --> 00:18:38,355 There would be an increase in Bitcoin's value 344 00:18:38,355 --> 00:18:41,235 and a complete devaluation of the altcoin. 345 00:18:42,235 --> 00:18:44,276 The users would have left Zcash 346 00:18:44,276 --> 00:18:48,156 and would have used a almost identical version of Zcash 347 00:18:49,075 --> 00:18:50,516 as a Bitcoin sidechain. 348 00:18:50,516 --> 00:18:51,996 And one of the benefits of this 349 00:18:51,996 --> 00:18:55,435 is that the value of their token would be, 350 00:18:55,435 --> 00:18:57,916 it would be a token which is a synthetic Bitcoin. 351 00:18:57,916 --> 00:18:59,876 That's a phrase I use to describe 352 00:18:59,876 --> 00:19:01,556 the native token on a Drivechain. 353 00:19:02,435 --> 00:19:04,075 I don't think anyone else says it that way, 354 00:19:04,075 --> 00:19:06,115 but a synthetic Bitcoin, 355 00:19:06,115 --> 00:19:09,036 meaning it's redeemable for Bitcoin. 356 00:19:09,276 --> 00:19:13,315 It trades at almost exactly Bitcoin's value all the time 357 00:19:14,195 --> 00:19:18,916 and its fees are paid to Bitcoin's miners, 358 00:19:18,916 --> 00:19:21,235 almost 100% of them. 359 00:19:21,235 --> 00:19:25,075 And you're basically using 360 00:19:26,796 --> 00:19:30,636 what could be described as like a Bitcoin economically, 361 00:19:30,636 --> 00:19:33,955 even though technologically it is distinct from Bitcoin 362 00:19:33,955 --> 00:19:36,075 in various interesting ways. 363 00:19:36,075 --> 00:19:38,916 It has a different security model 364 00:19:39,595 --> 00:19:42,276 and it has a different transaction fee market. 365 00:19:42,276 --> 00:19:44,156 So there's a different block space, 366 00:19:45,115 --> 00:19:48,796 but more or less the main benefit, 367 00:19:48,796 --> 00:19:50,756 I think practically speaking is 368 00:19:50,756 --> 00:19:52,796 someone who likes extreme privacy 369 00:19:52,796 --> 00:19:55,595 and is using Zcash as a result of that 370 00:19:55,595 --> 00:19:59,115 would quite possibly prefer to use Bitcoin. 371 00:19:59,627 --> 00:20:06,267 As the unit of account, but with Zcash privacy. And that is the intent of the Zcash sidechain, 372 00:20:06,267 --> 00:20:14,827 of the Zcash sidechain, the Drivechain called Zside. So it's very exciting. Maybe the whole 373 00:20:14,827 --> 00:20:19,867 privacy community would get very into it. Because those are simply people who are, 374 00:20:19,867 --> 00:20:25,787 as I understand, Bitcoiners who like strong privacy. They want the best possible privacy. 375 00:20:26,427 --> 00:20:32,506 And getting extreme privacy with Bitcoin involves a user experience that 376 00:20:32,506 --> 00:20:40,427 might be not as good as the user experience in Zcash. And Zcash is using the highest tech 377 00:20:40,427 --> 00:20:47,306 privacy technology. So it'd be great for people to be able to use Bitcoin, but also Zcash at the 378 00:20:47,306 --> 00:20:51,707 same time. And that's what the sidechains are all about. You're getting Bitcoin's economics 379 00:20:51,707 --> 00:20:58,026 with the software of an altcoin. So that's what a Drivechain is. It's software that's 380 00:20:58,026 --> 00:21:04,747 different than Bitcoin's layer one, but the unit of account trades one for one with Bitcoin. The 381 00:21:04,747 --> 00:21:09,226 fees are paid to Bitcoin. So you're in the Bitcoin community, but you're doing something 382 00:21:09,226 --> 00:21:18,586 different than Bitcoin layer one. So the vision of some Bitcoiners is that all you need is layer 383 00:21:18,586 --> 00:21:26,266 one Bitcoin and lightning. That's it. We don't need any more soft forks, taproot. It's even 384 00:21:26,266 --> 00:21:31,067 controversial whether that soft fork should have been done because now we have the wizards doing 385 00:21:31,067 --> 00:21:36,827 their inscriptions and it's controversial. See, the DriveChainers see it the opposite way. The 386 00:21:36,827 --> 00:21:42,986 DriveChainers want more things like that. They want more excitement, more demand for Bitcoin, 387 00:21:42,986 --> 00:21:48,986 more building in Bitcoin, more interesting stuff in Bitcoin. Rather than having Ethereum have 388 00:21:49,946 --> 00:21:53,787 200,000 different interesting projects, we should have all of that on Bitcoin. 389 00:21:53,787 --> 00:21:58,906 Because what's going to happen eventually, if one is pessimistic about Bitcoin, is that 390 00:21:59,467 --> 00:22:05,547 eventually there'll be a really interesting idea on blockchain. And if we don't have Drivechain, 391 00:22:06,266 --> 00:22:12,987 then it's possible that that really interesting idea will only be possible to be built outside 392 00:22:12,987 --> 00:22:21,946 of Bitcoin. So if you want to oppose Drivechain, if you want to oppose it, you have to be confident 393 00:22:21,946 --> 00:22:28,187 that there will never be a good idea that can be built on a Drivechain. 394 00:22:29,146 --> 00:22:34,586 And that can't be built on Bitcoin without Drivechain. So a person who's opposed to 395 00:22:34,586 --> 00:22:39,146 Drivechain has to have that extreme confidence, or they would have to have confidence that 396 00:22:39,946 --> 00:22:46,666 there are risks to Drivechain adoption that outweigh the benefits. We have some very cool 397 00:22:46,666 --> 00:22:52,827 people in the audience. I recognize some of the names. If anyone would like to come up and chat, 398 00:22:52,827 --> 00:23:00,586 they are welcome to. Hello, Mr. Lerner. Pleasure to have you in the audience. If 399 00:23:00,586 --> 00:23:05,306 you're interested in coming up and chatting, you're welcome to, as is anyone else. 400 00:23:08,987 --> 00:23:14,907 We have these spaces twice a week on Mondays and Thursdays, and they are intended for free form 401 00:23:15,707 --> 00:23:23,146 conversation, open conversation about Drivechain, about BIPS 300 and 301. 402 00:23:29,146 --> 00:23:38,666 Drivechain was conceived at first in 2015. The BIPS were authored by Paul Sztorc and CryptAxe. 403 00:23:39,387 --> 00:23:45,226 And it's one of the most interesting ideas that I've ever encountered in my life. I think there's 404 00:23:45,226 --> 00:23:51,866 a huge amount of potential for Drivechain to be transformative in the crypto space. 405 00:23:52,907 --> 00:24:00,026 It could strengthen Bitcoin potentially enormously. Personally, I see it as an opportunity 406 00:24:00,026 --> 00:24:04,267 to strengthen not only the security budget, but also the value of Bitcoin. 407 00:24:04,827 --> 00:24:15,066 Not only the economic value, but the political momentum of Bitcoin. Because right now, 408 00:24:15,066 --> 00:24:20,186 one of the weakest things going on in Bitcoin is that about half of the entire crypto community 409 00:24:21,226 --> 00:24:26,506 are people who are primarily not invested emotionally in Bitcoin. They're instead 410 00:24:26,506 --> 00:24:35,226 interested in altcoins. So Bitcoin only has a fraction of the political and cultural support 411 00:24:35,226 --> 00:24:42,186 and energy that it could. If the entire cypherpunk cryptocurrency movement were in Bitcoin, 412 00:24:42,746 --> 00:24:49,547 it would be much better. But instead, the community is fractured where many people are in 413 00:24:49,547 --> 00:24:55,867 Ethereum or other projects. And therefore, Bitcoin has fewer members in its community, 414 00:24:55,867 --> 00:25:03,307 which limits its cultural support, its political support, its ability to stave off bad regulation. 415 00:25:05,147 --> 00:25:08,987 It would be so helpful if all of these altcoiners were instead on Drivechains. 416 00:25:13,626 --> 00:25:19,147 I'm very excited to see that there are some parts of the cryptocurrency community 417 00:25:19,226 --> 00:25:26,267 that are trying to advocate for Drivechain, not only theoretically, but by actually building 418 00:25:26,906 --> 00:25:33,707 Bitcoin sidechains. The greatest example of this is the Rootstock community, where 419 00:25:35,147 --> 00:25:42,107 brilliant people have built a sidechain on Bitcoin that it seems to me is as close to a 420 00:25:42,107 --> 00:25:50,746 Drivechain as possible. I'm excited to see people doing that, people building real things and truly 421 00:25:50,746 --> 00:25:56,987 having actual economic activity on Bitcoin sidechains, which demonstrates the value of 422 00:25:56,987 --> 00:26:05,786 sidechains to a great extent. There are tens of millions of dollars of value in Bitcoin sidechains, 423 00:26:05,786 --> 00:26:12,267 including Rootstock specifically. And there are Bitcoin every month that are paid to 424 00:26:14,267 --> 00:26:21,387 Bitcoin layer one miners through Rootstock merged mining. Merged mining is an idea that is so 425 00:26:21,387 --> 00:26:27,867 important and is really underappreciated within the Bitcoin community because Satoshi himself said 426 00:26:28,827 --> 00:26:36,267 back in August of 2010 in writing that merged mining could strengthen Bitcoin in the future. 427 00:26:37,147 --> 00:26:44,267 He wrote explicitly that he viewed all the networks in the world would be merged mined 428 00:26:44,267 --> 00:26:50,186 with Bitcoin. So Satoshi thought that every blockchain would be a merged mined Bitcoin 429 00:26:50,186 --> 00:26:57,387 blockchain, that every single blockchain would be using Bitcoin as its layer one, so to speak. 430 00:26:58,827 --> 00:27:03,867 It's too bad that that's not true. Ethereum is not merge-mined with Bitcoin. Dogecoin is not 431 00:27:03,867 --> 00:27:09,867 merge-mined with Bitcoin. Numerous projects are not merge-mined with Bitcoin, but the greatest 432 00:27:09,867 --> 00:27:16,987 of all the merged mined blockchains on Bitcoin is Rootstock. So people who want to see not just the 433 00:27:16,987 --> 00:27:25,867 theoretical vision of Drivechain, but the actual efforts to build currently, I think should focus 434 00:27:26,186 --> 00:27:33,626 on Rootstock as the project which is at the forefront of building on Bitcoin sidechains. 435 00:27:33,626 --> 00:27:39,867 Another great project, of course, is Blockstream's Liquid, although it isn't merged mined. So I think 436 00:27:39,867 --> 00:27:44,906 it's not quite as close to a Drivechain as Rootstock is because Rootstock has that merged 437 00:27:44,906 --> 00:27:51,226 mining going on, which is an important part of the Drivechain vision. So Drivechain has 438 00:27:51,226 --> 00:27:57,387 two features. One is the two-way peg and the other is merged mining. And Drivechain is two 439 00:27:57,387 --> 00:28:03,707 different BIPs. The more important one, the main one, is BIP300, hashrate escrow, 440 00:28:03,707 --> 00:28:11,547 miner-controlled two-way peg. And then the second one, the secondary one, is blind merged mining, 441 00:28:11,547 --> 00:28:18,666 which enhances merged mining by enabling miners to have running of the sidechain node as an option 442 00:28:18,666 --> 00:28:29,466 rather than mandatory. One of the unfortunate parts of the current state of Bitcoin discourse 443 00:28:29,466 --> 00:28:34,907 is that merged mining is not universally applauded. Some Bitcoiners think that merged mining isn't 444 00:28:34,907 --> 00:28:41,866 good, even though Satoshi said it's fine and great. And also, it's been around for 13 years. 445 00:28:42,426 --> 00:28:46,027 It's been around since the beginning, or at least 10 years. There's been a whole decade 446 00:28:46,027 --> 00:28:51,866 of merged mining, and never once has there been a major problem as a result of merged mining. 447 00:28:52,506 --> 00:28:59,626 Or as far as I know, there's never been any problem. Bitcoin miners have received a humongous 448 00:28:59,626 --> 00:29:04,746 amount of money. If you were to add up all of the income that Bitcoin miners have received 449 00:29:04,746 --> 00:29:14,347 from merged mining other blockchains, it probably is north of $20 million or more. 450 00:29:14,827 --> 00:29:21,306 And if we strengthen the facilities available to sidechains, maybe merged mining can be 451 00:29:22,027 --> 00:29:30,267 an enormous amount of Bitcoin miners' income. Paul Sztorc has a view, if I recall from his blog 452 00:29:30,267 --> 00:29:36,827 posts, that in the far future, like maybe 10 years after drivechain is adopted, we might see 453 00:29:37,787 --> 00:29:48,667 the, we might see over half of all fee revenue coming from merged mining. So it's an opportunity 454 00:29:48,667 --> 00:29:52,186 that's of great importance for people who understand the security budget problem. 455 00:29:53,227 --> 00:29:57,866 The security budget problem was what inspired me at first to get into 456 00:29:58,506 --> 00:30:05,866 drivechain. However, I've come to understand that it is not at all the most important reason to do 457 00:30:05,866 --> 00:30:12,587 drivechain. And in fact, when drivechain was first conceived, the security budget problem wasn't even 458 00:30:12,587 --> 00:30:17,306 known. The inspiration for drivechain was a different problem that's very much known in 459 00:30:17,306 --> 00:30:22,667 Bitcoin, which is the problem of hard forks and the problem of a lack of extensibility. 460 00:30:22,827 --> 00:30:27,787 Drivechain would increase extensibility, enabling developers with new ideas to build on Bitcoin 461 00:30:27,787 --> 00:30:33,866 sidechains instead of building on an altcoin, or instead of trying to fork Bitcoin, they could just 462 00:30:33,866 --> 00:30:42,347 do something new on a sidechain, a peer-to-peer sidechain. Right now, every sidechain on Bitcoin, 463 00:30:42,347 --> 00:30:50,667 as I understand, is federated. And the sidechains are trying as hard as they can to develop ideas 464 00:30:50,667 --> 00:30:57,546 that make the federation as good as possible, as decentralized as possible. Some federations 465 00:30:57,546 --> 00:31:03,946 have very cutting-edge ideas that include hash rate as a component in the design. 466 00:31:04,986 --> 00:31:10,347 So they're doing everything they can to get close to drivechain. But drivechain would enable even 467 00:31:10,347 --> 00:31:16,506 further degrees of decentralization, an even higher degree of decentralization to be achieved. 468 00:31:17,467 --> 00:31:22,907 Because the most decentralized party on earth probably would be the Bitcoin mining industry. 469 00:31:22,907 --> 00:31:30,506 It's a multitudinous, dynamic, enormously large economic operation that involves a huge number 470 00:31:30,506 --> 00:31:36,986 of people all over the world. And having that party control the peg is the best arrangement 471 00:31:36,986 --> 00:31:44,506 possible, far better than having a decentralized party. And that's what drivechain is all about. 472 00:31:44,827 --> 00:31:50,986 Far better than having 15 signers that are individuals that are socially chosen 473 00:31:51,546 --> 00:31:59,866 involved. So hash rate is something to leverage and rely on because of the economic design, 474 00:32:01,227 --> 00:32:08,027 the self-interested, mutually distrusting nature of Bitcoin miners results in an emergent order 475 00:32:08,027 --> 00:32:13,946 that is reliable and incentive compatible. So that's the exciting experiment of drivechain. 476 00:32:14,986 --> 00:32:21,707 Once again, anyone who is in the audience who'd like to come up and chat is welcome to. 477 00:32:23,787 --> 00:32:26,746 You can raise your hand and come on up and chat. 478 00:32:26,746 --> 00:32:31,546 We have some familiar faces in the audience. Moon Settler, always great to see you here. 479 00:32:35,946 --> 00:32:41,066 There have been a number of really great tweets on drivechain recently. One of the ones I enjoyed a 480 00:32:41,066 --> 00:32:50,907 lot was a statement by Jameson Lopp. He wrote an article about Bitcoin development and ossification 481 00:32:50,907 --> 00:32:57,946 recently. And I thought it was so great. Why don't we take a look at it? 482 00:32:57,946 --> 00:33:12,667 So he said in his article, implementing drivechain or validity rollups would not only improve 483 00:33:12,667 --> 00:33:19,866 overall network speed and capacity, but would also allow developers to test out various solutions in 484 00:33:19,866 --> 00:33:25,387 a way that keeps the underlying base layer safe. So what Jameson Lopp is saying there, 485 00:33:26,347 --> 00:33:36,827 in my view, is that drivechain or validity rollups would allow for ossification to a greater extent 486 00:33:37,866 --> 00:33:46,106 on layer one, meaning less pressure to change layer one in order to allow people to do new things. 487 00:33:49,227 --> 00:33:53,546 Or more precisely, what he's saying is that drivechain or validity rollups would enable 488 00:33:54,506 --> 00:34:01,546 experimentation by developers on second layers in a partitioned manner, 489 00:34:01,546 --> 00:34:05,866 meaning keeping the base layer safe. So he's actually talking there not about ossification. 490 00:34:05,866 --> 00:34:12,986 He's focusing more on innovation and experimentation in a partitioned manner. 491 00:34:12,986 --> 00:34:22,667 So that's one of the key concepts of drivechain is that the sidechains are partitioned, meaning 492 00:34:22,746 --> 00:34:26,667 that if the sidechain fails, it doesn't harm the mainchain. 493 00:34:28,746 --> 00:34:33,626 Just like if Ethereum were to fail, it wouldn't technologically impact Bitcoin, 494 00:34:36,267 --> 00:34:42,746 generally speaking. So they're separate, they're partitioned. One of the problems, 495 00:34:42,746 --> 00:34:48,347 of course, is that if developers have to do altcoins to do innovation and experimentation, 496 00:34:48,347 --> 00:34:58,347 that's not good because they're not testnets, they're real money. So if you have an altcoin 497 00:34:58,907 --> 00:35:04,027 that tests something and it turns out to be very good, and the test is very successful, 498 00:35:04,986 --> 00:35:12,506 and then it grows a lot, then it starts to, unfortunately, diminish Bitcoin's network effect. 499 00:35:13,147 --> 00:35:17,387 So it's much better for Bitcoiners to be able to run tests 500 00:35:18,347 --> 00:35:23,147 within Bitcoin on sidechains than be forced to go do altcoins. 501 00:35:25,866 --> 00:35:32,106 And because of Bitcoin's lack of extensibility, because of the lack of drivechain, there is a lot 502 00:35:32,106 --> 00:35:39,306 of cultural confusion within the Bitcoin community, I think, where there are popular narratives 503 00:35:39,387 --> 00:35:45,066 within Bitcoin that are just not right, unfortunately. Mainstream Bitcoin discourse 504 00:35:45,066 --> 00:35:53,626 today, so-called toxic Bitcoin maximalism, includes a rejection of the idea that innovation 505 00:35:54,587 --> 00:36:04,986 within blockchain is valuable and that there needs to be an end to altcoins, but 506 00:36:05,946 --> 00:36:13,387 those same people don't support drivechain, generally. And therefore, I think they're 507 00:36:13,387 --> 00:36:21,306 coping. I think they're saying, well, Bitcoin doesn't have extensibility, you can't build 508 00:36:21,306 --> 00:36:28,186 Zcash on Bitcoin, you can't build Monero on Bitcoin, but those projects are no good, 509 00:36:28,506 --> 00:36:34,746 they're not worth anything. When the truth is, it would be better for Bitcoin to enable 510 00:36:34,746 --> 00:36:41,467 drivechain, and then those projects could be on Bitcoin, and we wouldn't have to criticize those 511 00:36:41,467 --> 00:36:51,066 projects and denounce them. It's not good for the Bitcoin community to be focused on denouncing 512 00:36:51,066 --> 00:36:56,186 altcoins. It would be much better for the Bitcoin community to be focused on enabling 513 00:36:56,186 --> 00:37:02,667 innovation on Bitcoin so that developers don't have to go to altcoins. So one of the other 514 00:37:02,667 --> 00:37:11,866 cultural mistakes within Bitcoin's community, one could argue, is a complete denial, a denial 515 00:37:11,866 --> 00:37:17,387 of the value of any altcoin, even though there are clearly some altcoins that have value. 516 00:37:17,947 --> 00:37:23,706 They have more scalability, they have more privacy, fungibility, 517 00:37:25,147 --> 00:37:30,667 they have projects that are focused on exciting and important ideas like oracles, 518 00:37:31,387 --> 00:37:36,267 they have more expressiveness, there are more things that can be done. 519 00:37:38,826 --> 00:37:47,226 So it's not good for a technologically inclined community to have an anti-innovation mindset, 520 00:37:47,226 --> 00:37:52,027 where, you know, it's like imagine if the Ford Motor Company were to say, 521 00:37:52,027 --> 00:37:57,787 we don't think anything that Chevy is building is right. None of those cars are good. Everyone 522 00:37:57,787 --> 00:38:02,986 should just buy a Ford, no one should buy a Chevy, no one should buy an Audi, no one should buy a 523 00:38:02,986 --> 00:38:07,387 Porsche, everyone should just buy Ford. Ford is the only good company because it was the first. 524 00:38:08,027 --> 00:38:15,626 Ford had the first car, and therefore no one can ever invent cars again. The invention of cars is, 525 00:38:15,626 --> 00:38:20,346 you know, this is kind of like what Bitcoiners think, like the invention of Bitcoin is like, 526 00:38:21,307 --> 00:38:24,826 you know, the invention of digital scarcity is somehow a singular event 527 00:38:24,826 --> 00:38:30,667 which can never be duplicated again. This whole Robert Breedlove style philosophy 528 00:38:31,547 --> 00:38:38,506 that because Bitcoin was first, therefore it's the one and only forever. That is not quite right. 529 00:38:39,387 --> 00:38:45,866 But if drivechain is adopted, if drivechain is adopted, then all of the hopes of such people 530 00:38:45,866 --> 00:38:49,547 might be vindicated. He might actually get what he wants then. He might see 531 00:38:50,427 --> 00:38:56,027 all of the altcoins diminish, maybe. It can't be promised, but it's possible. 532 00:39:00,267 --> 00:39:02,586 Welcome to the stage, Moon Settler. 533 00:39:02,746 --> 00:39:03,547 Moon Settler. 534 00:39:06,427 --> 00:39:07,547 Delighted to have you join. 535 00:39:12,267 --> 00:39:16,746 It looks like his connection might not be working. Sometimes these Twitter spaces have 536 00:39:16,746 --> 00:39:22,506 had glitches where it's hard to let people on stage, so hopefully we won't have that today. 537 00:39:23,387 --> 00:39:25,706 Unfortunately, it looks like it's hard for him to connect. 538 00:39:27,466 --> 00:39:33,387 I was really hoping he would be able to connect. Moon Settler is one of the people who I've really 539 00:39:33,387 --> 00:39:42,267 enjoyed having in these spaces. He always has a really good, sophisticated view on drivechain 540 00:39:43,226 --> 00:39:45,226 and related topics. 541 00:39:50,427 --> 00:39:56,506 In order to inspire this conversation, I'm going to put up a tweet in the nest from John Light. 542 00:39:56,506 --> 00:40:02,427 It's the tweet that I read aloud from Jameson Lopp's article. 543 00:40:03,067 --> 00:40:08,667 Well, we've been going for about 40 minutes now. I've talked the entire time. 544 00:40:09,787 --> 00:40:15,547 My goal with these spaces is to have people join, listen, and learn and speak. 545 00:40:16,586 --> 00:40:20,826 Sometimes we have a critic of drivechain on stage. Sometimes we have a critic of 546 00:40:20,826 --> 00:40:24,346 drivechain on stage. Sometimes we have a critic of drivechain on stage. 547 00:40:24,986 --> 00:40:27,866 I'm so excited to see what happens in this space. Whatever happens, I think I'll be happy. 548 00:40:27,866 --> 00:40:40,667 I'm so excited to see what happens in this space. Whatever happens, I think I'll be happy. 549 00:40:40,667 --> 00:40:47,787 Because in my view, if drivechain doesn't happen on Bitcoin, I think Bitcoin is going to have 550 00:40:47,787 --> 00:40:54,187 problems, very serious ones. I think those problems already exist due to the lack of 551 00:40:54,187 --> 00:40:59,626 drivechain. In my personal opinion, the drive chainers will be vindicated 552 00:41:01,387 --> 00:41:05,866 in the future whether or not drivechain is adopted. If it's adopted, I think it'll be 553 00:41:05,866 --> 00:41:10,746 successful. If it isn't adopted, I think that will be consequential. 554 00:41:13,466 --> 00:41:17,226 I'm excited about the drama in this space. I'm curious to see what happens. 555 00:41:18,027 --> 00:41:25,866 Will drivechain be adopted and what will happen as a result of its adoption or non-adoption? 556 00:41:25,866 --> 00:41:33,147 I'm very excited to observe this space evolve in the future. The only part that's not so great is 557 00:41:33,147 --> 00:41:40,267 how long it takes. It might take years for this to play out. It might take a decade to see what 558 00:41:40,267 --> 00:41:48,826 happens. A person has to have very low time preference, as the Austrian economists like to 559 00:41:48,826 --> 00:41:58,346 say. Low time preference to understand whether drivechain is going to achieve everything it's 560 00:41:58,346 --> 00:42:03,947 designed to achieve. It'll take maybe a generation to find out the course of Bitcoin's future. 561 00:42:04,667 --> 00:42:11,226 Will Bitcoin become the world's money or will it drift into a small and irrelevant 562 00:42:12,667 --> 00:42:16,907 part of the economy? It looks like someone else just had trouble connecting. 563 00:42:18,106 --> 00:42:24,267 The speaker named YOLO. Unfortunately, there might be a problem with Twitter spaces. 564 00:42:25,387 --> 00:42:31,147 Going forward for the next space on Thursday, I'm going to try to fix this. I'll try signing out 565 00:42:32,106 --> 00:42:38,027 on my phone from the account and logging back in. I'll try things like that in case that might fix 566 00:42:38,027 --> 00:42:43,626 any glitch that's occurring. We've had problems in recent spaces with people joining. Once or 567 00:42:43,626 --> 00:42:48,826 twice, someone couldn't join. This time, it looks like no one can join. There's some problem with 568 00:42:48,826 --> 00:42:56,106 Twitter spaces. Elon Musk has fired a lot of the employees there. Maybe the person who runs the 569 00:42:56,187 --> 00:43:05,547 Twitter spaces today is out sick. Maybe that's what's going on. I want to mention a few things 570 00:43:05,547 --> 00:43:15,866 about drivechains development. We have a new Discord channel. The Discord. It's for a whole 571 00:43:15,866 --> 00:43:23,466 bunch of different groups, including Rootstock, Liquid, and Drivechain and others. Stacks. 572 00:43:24,027 --> 00:43:30,986 I believe it's called Second Layer. The number two, and then the letters ND, and then layer. 573 00:43:33,706 --> 00:43:40,267 You can join it. There are people there chatting about all these different Bitcoin 574 00:43:40,267 --> 00:43:47,466 second layer projects. It's been created as a community to bring together the whole second 575 00:43:47,466 --> 00:43:52,667 layer community. Everyone interested in sidechains and layers for Bitcoin. 576 00:43:55,947 --> 00:44:01,626 One of the interesting projects in the space with regard to layers on Bitcoin is Stacks. 577 00:44:04,027 --> 00:44:09,226 Stacks had an ICO and as a result has an altcoin. 578 00:44:10,187 --> 00:44:17,866 It's a large project and it's been interesting to listen to their spaces and learn about it. 579 00:44:19,466 --> 00:44:25,466 The lead designer there, Munib, has tweeted about drivechain only a few times. I've read all the 580 00:44:25,466 --> 00:44:31,706 tweets that he's written about it. He never criticizes it. He just says that drivechain 581 00:44:32,667 --> 00:44:41,067 is theoretical. I think he has an accurate view that drivechains are not currently possible on 582 00:44:41,067 --> 00:44:50,187 Bitcoin. I think his project is an example of what happens when there are no drivechains possible. 583 00:44:50,746 --> 00:44:55,307 When there are no drivechains possible, you end up with altcoins like Stacks. 584 00:44:55,626 --> 00:45:00,586 If drivechain were adopted, then that project would probably 585 00:45:02,667 --> 00:45:10,106 over time migrate toward a drivechain design. As a result, the STX token probably would lose value. 586 00:45:10,826 --> 00:45:20,986 One could suggest that maybe Stacks doesn't have an incentive to advocate for drivechain. 587 00:45:21,147 --> 00:45:27,706 Doesn't have an incentive to advocate for drivechain. Whereas in Rootstock, there isn't 588 00:45:27,706 --> 00:45:36,506 an altcoin at the center of the project. There's nothing stopping them from advocating for drive 589 00:45:36,506 --> 00:45:42,586 chain and therefore they do. I view Rootstock in comparison to Stacks. Rootstock is more aligned 590 00:45:42,586 --> 00:45:49,067 with drivechain in my understanding. I think it's great that there are a bunch 591 00:45:49,067 --> 00:45:53,307 of different projects out there that are all using Bitcoin in different ways. My personal 592 00:45:53,307 --> 00:46:00,027 approach is to be friendly and civil and focus not so much on criticizing. Instead, it's good 593 00:46:00,027 --> 00:46:08,506 to focus on building and providing a path forward and not trying to bring down and criticize and 594 00:46:09,466 --> 00:46:12,427 and undermine what others are doing. 595 00:46:16,506 --> 00:46:22,907 So that's the attitude we have at LayerTwo Labs and me personally is just an attitude of positivity, 596 00:46:23,706 --> 00:46:31,947 of friendliness and intellectual community, you know, open dialogue. 597 00:46:32,667 --> 00:46:42,506 Not at all toxic Bitcoin stuff. In fact, I think the maximalist, the identity of maximalism really 598 00:46:42,506 --> 00:46:48,506 belongs to drivechain because drivechain is the idea that it would be possible perhaps to have 599 00:46:48,506 --> 00:46:53,866 all the altcoin users come to Bitcoin, use sidechains and therefore the altcoins would go to zero. 600 00:46:54,826 --> 00:47:03,307 Bitcoin would have a maximum market capitalization. In my opinion, the only coherent 601 00:47:03,307 --> 00:47:08,187 understanding of Bitcoin maximalism is to say that Bitcoin's market cap should be 100% 602 00:47:09,307 --> 00:47:14,506 of the crypto market cap and it's been going down for a long time. So I think that 603 00:47:14,506 --> 00:47:20,187 the establishment is not succeeding and I think that we see the cracks forming. The cracks are 604 00:47:20,187 --> 00:47:26,187 forming in the system. Something is needed. There's a change that's needed. The security 605 00:47:26,187 --> 00:47:34,506 budget problem is ongoing. The altcoins are growing. The lack of ossification leads to 606 00:47:34,506 --> 00:47:43,547 endless debates about soft forks. So those are all problems that result from the lack of drivechain. 607 00:47:44,506 --> 00:47:49,307 So if we get drivechain, if we get extensibility, if we get miner control pegs, 608 00:47:49,307 --> 00:47:56,667 then we get layer one ossification potentially. We get higher fees potentially and we get altcoin 609 00:47:56,667 --> 00:48:03,706 users migrating to Bitcoin sidechains potentially. That's the drivechain vision as I understand it. 610 00:48:03,706 --> 00:48:11,067 The innovation and extensibility results in higher fees, higher ossification and higher dominance. 611 00:48:13,947 --> 00:48:18,027 A lot of people don't understand that whole justification for drivechain. 612 00:48:21,626 --> 00:48:28,346 And instead they view drivechain primarily from the security budget angle or from the 613 00:48:28,346 --> 00:48:34,586 angle of competing with altcoins. But actually the best justification for drivechain, 614 00:48:34,586 --> 00:48:40,826 the most fundamental one, has to do with the fact that there's a lot of people who 615 00:48:40,826 --> 00:48:44,986 don't understand that. The most fundamental one has to do with 616 00:48:47,547 --> 00:48:54,106 increasing extensibility and innovation. All of the other things would flow. All of the 617 00:48:54,106 --> 00:49:00,427 other good things would flow from higher extensibility and higher innovation on Bitcoin. 618 00:49:01,307 --> 00:49:10,506 The other things that would flow from that are the ossification, the fees, and the dominance 619 00:49:11,226 --> 00:49:12,267 of Bitcoin. 620 00:49:18,267 --> 00:49:26,986 Well, we've been going for almost an hour now. And sadly, the few people who wanted to join 621 00:49:27,787 --> 00:49:34,427 had technological issues. I think it's Twitter's fault probably. But I apologize on their behalf. 622 00:49:35,387 --> 00:49:45,387 On Thursday, I think the issues might be fixed and we can talk about any ideas that you have. 623 00:49:45,387 --> 00:49:52,267 In the meantime, please find me and others in the drivechain talk telegram group. 624 00:49:53,147 --> 00:49:58,267 And if you have ideas on how these spaces can be run differently or better, please let me know. 625 00:49:58,267 --> 00:50:03,866 I'm Henry. I can be found in drivechain talks telegram group or on Twitter. 626 00:50:06,027 --> 00:50:10,267 And I look forward to seeing you all again. Thanks for being here. 627 00:50:10,267 --> 00:50:15,226 Drivechain also has a Reddit that I post in. It's not very active right now, 628 00:50:15,226 --> 00:50:20,586 but everyone's welcome to post there if they'd like. So if you go to reddit.com slash drive 629 00:50:20,586 --> 00:50:30,667 chains, it's there. Today, I will post Jameson Lopp's article on there. And I've posted others 630 00:50:30,667 --> 00:50:40,027 on there as well. There's a telegram group and then we also have drivechain.info. And you can 631 00:50:40,027 --> 00:50:45,626 also check out layer2labs.com for information. There's a whole bunch of different websites and 632 00:50:45,626 --> 00:50:53,067 places to go to learn about drivechain. Well, that's it for today. Thanks everyone for being 633 00:50:53,067 --> 00:50:57,706 here. See you next time on Thursday.