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Okay, we are recording. I am with Paul. Paul, how are you, my friend?

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I'm good. How are you?

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I mean, well, I guess friend is a bit of an overstatement, right?

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I mean, I think we sat beside each other on a bus at Bruce's event,

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if I'm not mistaking. That was like the extent of our relationship, right?

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Yeah, maybe.

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I feel like you're a friend because people talk about you all the time.

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I think that Bitcoin is actually kind of, it's like a very traumatic war. And
everyone is like

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going through all this. It's a tremendously alienating thing. Because many of your
friends

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and family don't get it. And they have never gotten it. And they definitely didn't
get it

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back in whenever when you explained it to them. And now they don't really know how
to think of

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you. And no one really knows what you're going through, except for the other
Bitcoiners.

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So I do think that there is a kind of Bitcoin PTSD or Bitcoin gang or something

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that binds us all together.

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Okay, well, yeah, I can get down with that one. Because I do have a tendency of
starting with

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that. And I just feel like, yeah, even I mean, you, I have known for years, but even
people like

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I'll meet someone just like last week, and they'll tell me about their Bitcoin
project,

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and how they're building a, you know, self custody wallet with lightning and this
and that, I'll be

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like, like brothers from different mothers, let's go, let's do this. So okay, you
wanted to switch

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it up today, right? Normally, I start with people's story. But I guess we're gonna
kind of

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do the reciprocal of that today. So we're gonna start with my last question first.
So it doesn't

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matter what your name is, who you are, what your story is to start with. Let's start
first with

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what is a asymmetrical truth? What is some truth that you hold the most other
Bitcoiners or people

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in Bitcoin would disagree with you on? Yeah, well, see, I think people should get
they should

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get, they should be able to get to know me first, and then they decide whether or
not they care

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about the story. But I have so the one that is, it's tangentially related to
Bitcoin. But in

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general, the answer that question of just in with respect to everything is that
probably a lot of

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the people you love will die because election gambling is frowned upon in American
culture.

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So that is this weird screwball belief that I have.

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Well, you got to rewind and you got you got to hit me with that one again. You got
to hit me

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with that. Wait, wait, hold on. Wait, what? Say that again. I kind of I kind of
caught it.

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Yeah, so it's so I'm a big believer in this prediction markets concept. But the
excitement

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that most Bitcoiners and libertarians have for it only scratches the surface of the
tremendous

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potential this institution has to just fix. I don't really want to say fix
everything,

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but it can fix a certain type of problem, which is the who watches the watchman
problem. So like

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you can imagine a pyramid in your mind where like the CEO is at the top or the
Congress people are

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at the top. Or the editor in chief, if you're from academia, like I'm from academia,
the editor in

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chief of some journals at the top, and then there's senior academic academics with
prestige,

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and then it filters down. And at the bottom, you have research assistants, or you
have like,

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whatever, staff, janitors, whatever, all these other people, and this produces some
outcomes.

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And the people, when you have subordinates, you have a lot of control over them, you
monitor them.

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If you're happy with their work, you promote them or reward them. But if you're not
happy,

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you can you can fire them and people don't want to be fired. So they work hard. They
work hard

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enough, they at least there's some feedback for laziness, they get kicked out if
they're too lazy.

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But what about the people at the top? What keeps them accountable?

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And the answer right now is not very much. I mean, this, the CEO is accountable to
the stock price,

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but it's very, very difficult. The CEOs, they're working every day, they're 24
seven,

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you know, their brain is inside the company. And they've touching everything,
everything that

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the company is they have a hand in. And how can you possibly even understand begin
to understand

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like second guess their choice, like they can you can say, well, the stock price
would have been

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higher, the stock price of Tesla would have been higher if Elon Musk did this or
didn't do this,

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or whatever. You have no idea. The board of directors is theoretically in charge of
the CEO,

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they can fire the CEO. But they you know, those are some people that meet like four
times a year.

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What are they going to do? They'd have no idea if they have no idea if Elon Musk is
doing the

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right thing or not. Often the chairman of the board is the CEO's friends. This is a
million

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times worse in the because a corporation is ultimately accountable to bankruptcy to
sales

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and to bankruptcy. So the corporation doesn't do well, the company eventually goes
out of business.

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You know, but in in political world, it's even worse because, you know, the best you
can hope

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for is a change of party leadership from, you know, Republican to Democrat in the
United States.

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And it's much worse in Europe when there's like, they have a proportional
representation where you

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can barely ever get anything changed. We hold on, but I want to go back to your
first sentence

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of this of what we just said, which was what you said something along the line.
Yeah,

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repeat what you said. And like, I want to figure that out.

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Many of the people you love will die because because economic growth and medical
research

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and such and such will be what it is. Even things like, you know, mental health or
whatever.

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Everything will just be better. The prediction market institution has the ability to

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completely reform the way these people at the top are held accountable to to some
kind of,

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you know, tangible result. And so the potential for improvement is almost unlimited.
I mean,

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the things that the U.S. government currently does that holds back economic growth.
I mean,

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free trade is just one thing. Free trade would be like free. And someone has
calculated that the

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return on investment for that or the gains of trade from that would be like
something like

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an 11 million percent ROI. I can look to find this study, but it's like it's it's a
silly thing.

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The benefits would be extreme. The cost is nothing. That's just one thing, you know,
many.

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But the the kind of laziness and the kind of political games that people play,

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both within the corporation and in civic political life. That's all something that

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you could really stamp out almost completely with this one institution that we would
have had

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naturally by itself. It's very old. It's as old as the hills. There was there's you
can track

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people would bet on who would be elected pope since like the thirteen hundreds,
twelve hundred

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A.D. There's all this. And of course, in the UK, they bet on everything just for
fun. But the U.S.

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is this super important, super Puritan place, and it hates gambling and it hates the
CFTC has

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written despite, you know, there's been like multiple papers by there's like a one
called

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the Power of Prediction Markets. It's signed by like 30 people, including multiple
Nobel Prize

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winners arguing for deregulation of this institution. But it's regulated just out of

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existence. You can't you are not allowed to even do this took forever to get like
the special

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exemption in this one universities that people could bet like five hundred dollars
maximum per

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person, which is not enough. All of it could be all this stuff could be fixed. So
even things like

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Fed policy or whatever, whatever you want to do, you could do it better with a
prediction market.

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How? And we would have had it. Why? Why? How does a prediction market fix all of
this?

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There's because the potential is untapped. So most people have only heard of like
this one thing

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where it's like you win the dollar if Donald Trump is reelected, you win or you win
a different

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dollar if Joe Biden is elected. And you have these two things. And one of those two
is going to be

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elected. So they trade in the marketplace and they trade maybe the Donald Trump
shares were 30 cents

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on the dollar and the Biden shares were 70 percent, 70 cents on the dollar. This,
you know,

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this would indicate that Trump has a 30 percent chance of winning. Biden has a 70
percent chance

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of winning. And so that's what people are used to. They just they're. Well, even
that people have a

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big problem concluding that this represents some kind of objective knowledge and
that if it were

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if if people knew somehow that Biden would win, they would all sell the Trump shares
for 30 cents

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because they they're imminently worth zero. They buy the Biden shares for 70 cents.
They're

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imminently worth one dollar. So they get a huge ROI in a few days, 70 cents to one
dollar.

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But this this idea, the idea of just aggregating all the information on one topic,

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like even something like what will the global average surface temperature be next
year,

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as reported by this NASA satellite, like if you wanted to do a global warming
texting

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global warming is this abstract nebulous thing, whereas you can make it concrete
with some

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measurement. You say here's a satellite. It's going to measure this thing now.

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Maybe you don't care about the satellite or maybe you don't care about

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how NASA calculates surface temperature abnormality. But you see, then the
conversation

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can at least make progress. You can say, well, I have a problem with this satellite.
Fine.

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What about this other satellite? Or what about 20 satellites? Why average them
together?

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Or what about some other thing we'll do? You know, we'll take the National Weather
Service

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from every country or whatever. You can the conversation will make progress.

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But most disputes really aren't about anything. They're just about, you know,

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who gets respect from whom. And there this this is petty kind of monkey politics

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from the Stone Age that we can't shake off. But in many other domains,

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we just shake it off. Like when you're trying to install plumbing in your house or
accomplish any

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normal task, you just say, well, does it work yet? And you just keep changing it
until it works. But

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we haven't been able to shake this all this politicking off. So but this is just
narrowly

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with one dimension. You just say, OK, I'm just going to measure what is the surface

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temperature going to be next year or five years from now or 10 years from now? You
can say this

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is going to pay one cent for every surface temperature abnormality in the year 2030
or

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something. And then, you know, you have to calculate time value of money a little
bit.

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It's a little confusing and opportunity costs if you had invested in the stock
market. But

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basically, if that number starts going up all of a sudden, it means that people
think that the

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earth is going to the global surface temperature is going to be warmer. So it kind
of just ends

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this dispute. But if it plummets or stays the same, people think it won't be much
warmer. And

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so the problem isn't as big of a deal. Now, the issue, though, is this is just with
one dimension.

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And when you change this from one dimension to several dimensions, you solve a lot
of problems.

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So a lot of people will say something like, sure, we won't have a lot of the global
surface

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temperature abnormality in the future will be low. The problem will be solved. But
that's only

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because we'll do something about it. We'll pass whatever the carbon plan or whatever
it is.

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So it doesn't actually solve any problems. Or people will say stuff like, sure,
Hillary Clinton

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is trading this. People said this to me four years ago. They say Hillary Clinton is
trading

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really high. That's just because, you know, she's so evil and sorceress that she's
going to win.

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And there's nothing we can do about it. It doesn't say anything about whether or not
who should win

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or something like that. But you can break this up. This is my mission to try to
bring this to

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the world. Instead of having yes and no, which is just two questions, there's just
one question,

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like basically, will the Republican win, yes or no? And having Trump be 30 cents and
Biden be 70

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cents, you can break it up into lots of other things. You can say, will the
unemployment rate

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be low? Will we have a good economy? Just to make it super oversimplified, it's
like, will the

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Republican win? Will the economy be good? You have four states. One pays if the
Republican wins,

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and the economy is good. One pays if the Republican wins, and the economy is bad.

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One pays if the Democrat wins, and the economy is good. One pays if the Democrat
wins,

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and the economy is bad. And from there, you can do all kinds of additions,
subtraction,

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multiplication. You get everything you got before, but you get also this
relationship.

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If the numbers clump up on a line, all the Republican winning economy good numbers
over

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there, and the economy bad Republican losing numbers, if they clump up on a line, it
shows

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that they are related statistically. It gives you advice. It says, if I vote
Republican,

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the economy will be better, or vice versa. So if we do this climate plan,

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the temperature will be different. If we do this business maneuver, the stock price
will go up. If

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Tesla discontinues the Cybertruck, or doubles down on the Cybertruck, or whatever it
is.

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Paul, I have a question.

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Now, with that, you hold the leader accountable. That's the point.

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The leader should be as accountable as Uber drivers, where you get rated five stars
every

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time. You get constant feedback. They should be working really hard, and they should
be

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punished for inefficiency, the same way as everyone else should. When you go to
work,

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you should be giving it your all. You should be improving every day, and it should
be difficult.

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But then when you go home, you should get a lot of money also, and we should all
live in

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a rich economy full of awesome stuff that everyone wants that's cheap and high
quality.

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Is this about prediction markets? It's about predicting the future, which is
obviously

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interesting and fascinating. My first question is, why is this seen as gambling, or
why is it

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illegal in some countries? That's my first question. You're not hurting anyone.

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Anyone who's libertarian has been trying that for a long time. It's like, if it
neither breaks my

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arm, nor picks my pocket, or something. This is the struggle of all people over
time, I think,

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against tyranny, collectivism. There must have been something that happened,

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or something went wrong. I'm just trying to think, how do they conflate?

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There's a long history. As I said, there is a long history of actually doing the
betting.

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People have been betting on who will win the life of the pope, and all these other
things,

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for hundreds of years. People do bet today even, right? I don't bet,

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but people go on websites all the time. There's been a long trend. A long time ago,

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life insurance was seen as immoral. That was seen as betting that your spouse would
die.

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It was seen as very irresponsible. It interfered with the church. This was back in
the day when

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America lived in a little farm church community. If your spouse died, the church
community would

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take care of you. It was suspicious. It competed with the other institutions of the
day.

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It is kind of weird, right? There's even a kind of trope of the gold digger spouse
killing the

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person for the life insurance money, or something. The guy takes out a life
insurance policy,

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big life insurance policy, and then he disappears in a boating accident, or
something.

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It used to be considered immoral, but now it's not at all. If you have a family,

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it's considered quite bizarre to go without life insurance. It's flipped completely.

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All kinds of stuff. The stock market used to be seen as gambling. There used to be a
phrase,

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gentlemen don't trade puts, which is truly absurd. This was about the Chicago Board
of

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Options. Chicago was in the middle of all these farms. These people did all this
banking

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in America with the Mississippi River and blah, blah, blah. There was all the
seasonal variation.

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There was all this risk. They got big into insurance. They got big into trading
futures

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for crops and things. This is why Chicago got big. I don't know exactly when this
would be,

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gilded era, late 1850 to 1900, I guess. I don't remember the exact dates.

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Chicago started all this stuff up, became this big financial center.

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There was this phrase that you weren't supposed to trade puts. Put is when you bet a
call option

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makes money if the thing goes up in price. A put option makes money if the thing
goes down. Put is

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kind of insurance. There was this stigma. It was seen as wrong, even though it's
laughable if you

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think about it for two seconds. Think about it in international forex. What if
you're trading

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the British pounds per yen rates, but you live in America? It's like, which one is
even a put

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and which one is even a call? It's like absolutely no difference. That's my point.
That's my next

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question. Futures and all that stuff, isn't that betting on the future to some
extent? Yes.

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Then why is that allowed, but then you're not allowed? Every action you take has
some sort of

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if you walk to the post office, you're betting that the post office will be open
when you get

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there. Where's that line? I'm not going to lie. I've always stayed away from
gambling or even

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betting on these types of things because in my brain, I couldn't figure out where
are you allowed?

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It just doesn't make any sense to me. It's so funny. People are allowed to play
games.

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Game's bad. The issue is, well, there's a big difference. If you go to a casino,

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the odds are fixed and they're against, they're not in your favor. Something's up
because

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everything is a negative expected value. That's cool. Why is anyone there?

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Wait, lottery. A lottery. In the United States, the state rents a lottery.

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What is going on right now? It's just a mistake is what I'm saying. It's no
different than

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with the life insurance and with the stock market. Stock market is important. Life
insurance is

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important because you should be able to provide for your family if you die. It
shouldn't depend

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on how popular you are with your friends. That's uncivilized and barbaric. Plus,
what's the guy who

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gets there first? He hasn't had an opportunity to get standing in the community, but
his actuarial

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risk is the same. Why should he suffer in a world with no life insurance? Similarly,

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capital markets, if you have a great business idea, should you have to work as a
waiter or

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whatever for 30 years and save up all the money to finally start that idea?
Meanwhile, down the

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street, there's some rich retired person who wants a better return and they're
betting on

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to turn their money into more money. Why can't the two of you just link up? They can
be the

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investor in your business. You can start it tomorrow. That's the point of having
free capital

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markets. When you can short, when you can bet on things going down, that is healthy.
Part of the

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problem with the US housing market is you cannot short it. When the prices go up,
everyone starts

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buying and they'll become house flippers. There's no way to short. Once you think
there's a bubble,

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this is before all that stuff that Michael Burry mortgage-backed security stuff.

217
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You can't short someone in your neighbor's house. You can't even take out
homeowner's insurance.

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You have to have what they call an insurable interest. You can't bet that the houses
around

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you will go down in price. If you could, it probably would pop the bubble before it
really

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got going. If you can short things, it's bubble suppression technology. It smooths
out all these

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cycles. What stops them from becoming really euphoric is when they become super
irrational

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and then they start to do a lot of damage because then they have that extra momentum
to just go

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crazy and then super crash back down. The whole thing has been absurd. What we
should just have

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is liberalism. People are allowed to just do whatever they want as long as it
doesn't harm

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a third party, which this absolutely does not. What I'm trying to impress on people
is that

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your life will be so much better eventually. I don't know if it'll take a hundred
years,

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but eventually it will reach something like this. Of course, they're going to look
back and

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they're going to say, look at these stupid debates that these people would do. What
a joke this was.

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30 seconds for your health care policy and 60 seconds on whatever national defense.
In the

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future, people will just publish a lot of stuff. It'll be evaluated by experts the
same way hedge

231
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funds evaluate companies. They'll just battle it out in the markets on who will have
the best

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GDP growth, who will have the best unemployment rate, who will have the fewest
deaths in the

233
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country, or who will have the longest life expectancy or education or anything else
you

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can measure. They'll just battle it out in these markets. The voters will show up on
election day.

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They'll check, see everyone's numbers. It'll be like a menu, getting a menu in a
restaurant. You

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don't have to know anything about how they make the whatever it is, the tiramisu.
They just see,

237
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this is exactly what you'll get. This is the cost. This is exactly how much money
the government

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will spend. Then they'll just go in and they'll still get to choose one party over
another,

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but they'll have all this great information. If anyone does, this is super
irrational.

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If any party is known, it has nothing to do with what they say. If it's known that
if they are

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elected, they will behave irrationally, their numbers will be worse before they even
have the

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opportunity to be elected. They'll know on election day to avoid whichever party
that is.

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Life would be totally different. You don't have any of this about, and then of
course,

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these people are all professional manipulators. They have all these psychologists
they hire,

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and these pollsters, the social media algorithms. They have all this stuff designed
to get into

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your brain with this emotional stuff about how you need to vote for this person.
Otherwise,

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it's the end of your culture. It's the end of the world. These people are coming,
the poor people,

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the immigrants or whatever, the Jews, they're coming to destroy society and you have
to do

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X, Y, Z. You have to vote for this party because it's the only one that will be
compassionate to

250
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this marginalized group. If you don't vote for this party, it's because you're
racist or

251
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homophobic or whatever. All of that is just because they're trying to buy election
results

252
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with advertising and polling. They do all this stuff. They know everyone down to,

253
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they've got everything down to science. They know all the neighborhoods. They know
who's

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the single issue voter on gun control. They send them the gun control thing.

255
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The neighbor gets a completely different thing. They get a thing about LGBT rights.

256
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They know everything, the pollsters. We got everyone's credit card data. They got
everything.

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They're manipulating people into voting a certain way. As we know, one way is
through logic and

258
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reason, but that is expensive and not as reliable as all the cheap shots. You have
all this stuff

259
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about a father and son not talking to each other because one of them is a Trump
supporter or

260
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something.

261
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All of that would go away in my fantasy world. This would be a boring thing. I don't
know. It'd be like Crest versus Colgate. You go to CVS and you want to buy
toothpaste.

262
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Both of them are high-quality products, both at a good price. If you decide you're
tired of one, you just switch to the other.

263
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Since the free market is there, now it's like you're going to buy toothpaste and
Crest is like $40,000 and gives you brain cancer immediately.

264
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Colgate is like $55,000 and you die slowly of sepsis or something.

265
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These are two horrible products and they don't improve, but if you just had this
mechanism to punish the people who make it worse, then it would just get better over
time as rapidly as possible.

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That's my quirky thing and not a lot of people agree with me as you can imagine.

267
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It's not supposed to be disagree. People don't know what to say to this.

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Let's use an example. For example, when Trump came down the elevator, I'm not even
American, so I can't really vote or anything.

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When he came down the elevator, I think within two days I was like, this man is the
future president of the United States.

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I've met enough Americans to know that this man is the future American president and
my dad literally stopped talking to me.

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He did because he didn't believe that and I think one week he was like, this guy is
going to beat him and now it's going to be that guy and one by one, they all fell
off and then Trump won.

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I'm just curious how you prevented that in your world.

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It's a mixture of a lot of things. My diagnosis of why that happened to you and why
it happens to everyone else is a mixture of things, but I think all of them would be
solved, maybe not all of them.

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We have an instinct to pick leaders and project ourselves into them, so if people
have different leaders, then this is fine.

275
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The issue is why does it matter? There's a lot of issues. Will he win? I had friends
like that too.

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I was at Bar Trivia with my friends and they said there's no way that Trump can win
and I said, well, in the betting markets, he has like a 30% chance of winning, but
people don't even know what to say to that because they're used to a certain script
where you just think your guy is going to win.

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You can't see it any other way. The idea of even putting percentage points on it is
foreign to people, but people couldn't believe that he had 30% and then that was in
2016 and then he won.

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A part of it would be self-awareness that you don't know everything and it's like
why would you comment on – what if you wanted to comment on something like Tesla?

279
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That's your right. You could say there's no way Tesla is going to sell more than
20,000 cars of this type in a certain month, but it's like who cares? Either that
will happen or it won't.

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People use politics as like a kind of stage so they can perform and show parts of
themselves to their friends and allies. That's part of it, but I would strip all
that away and I would make it this dry, boring thing.

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It's like when you interview a CEO for a job, you don't necessarily need to
interview them. If you somehow secretly knew that they would be the best, in my
world, you can make your little trades so that if they're chosen and they do a good
job, you make a ton of money.

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But if they're not chosen, then you also make money or you get a refund, so you lose
nothing. The only way you lose money is if they are chosen and they do badly.

283
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You can set up these trades so the only way you lose money is if they are chosen to
be the leader and they do a bad job.

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Then you can just without even talking to them at all, just if you somehow knew God
visits you in a dream and lets you in on a secret, you don't even need to campaign
or anything.

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It would just be less salient in the culture in general. That's one thing.

286
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Another thing though is if you just have a percent, that's what I'm saying. You'd be
saying, this guy's going to win. Your father would be saying, no, he won't.

287
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But somewhere there would be some percentage value that's the same for both of you
and neither of you really have any basis for disputing it.

288
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Just like the Tesla car sales in a certain month figure. It's like there's a
projection. You don't really know. You're not really a specialist.

289
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A lot of people, they know what their friends think. Do they even know that only 10
or by some count 8 states matter because those are the only 8 swing states?

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Do they know that there are only so many persuadable voters in those swing states?
Do they know what those people want?

291
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A lot of people, I have friends from Connecticut or friends in California. Those are
both blue states. It doesn't matter what anyone in those states think at all to
who's going to be elected president.

292
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Many of those people can't even name the senators or representatives in their own
state.

293
00:30:55,883 --> 00:31:11,883
You're talking about a future where people's ideas and thoughts are measured over
time. Have you ever heard of Ray Dalio? Have you ever heard of how he runs his hedge
fund?

294
00:31:11,883 --> 00:31:14,883
I actually interviewed him at Bridgewater.

295
00:31:15,883 --> 00:31:20,883
Interesting. Because I read his book and it just strikes me as something that…

296
00:31:20,883 --> 00:31:24,883
He gives it away to people who interview him. Not him personally.

297
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Oh, the book?

298
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They give it to you if you come there.

299
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I bought it myself. I'm just saying it's like – I found a lot of what – so this
whole idea of – what was that? He has this tool that he uses. I forget what it's
called.

300
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It's just radical criticism. They record everything and they just – everything is
scrutinized.

301
00:31:43,883 --> 00:31:55,883
Well, scrutinize – what I found really fascinating about it is he has this –
literally this tool that in real time as he's hosting let's say a meeting with a
hundred of his employees, they're able to give him –

302
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You can say, this sucks.

303
00:31:57,883 --> 00:32:07,883
This sucks. This is right. This is wrong or whatever, whatever. And in the back,
this matrix-like system is tabulating Paul.

304
00:32:08,883 --> 00:32:16,883
It'd be like if you're watching an NFL game and there's like a score and you see how
much points they're likely to get and the guy throws an interception and the numbers
just –

305
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In real time.

306
00:32:17,883 --> 00:32:18,883
Immediately.

307
00:32:18,883 --> 00:32:30,883
Yeah. And he talks about this world where – I mean this company that he's built
where he's essentially – like I said, you have a weight and it measures over time
how accurate you are.

308
00:32:31,883 --> 00:32:44,883
So if 9 out of 10 things you've always said is always like accurate, like you said
this is going to have – Bitcoin price is going to go up and it does and you said
this and this and this, they have like this way to actually kind of quantify this.

309
00:32:44,883 --> 00:32:55,883
I think the markets improve on that. But this is a similar thing. He's obviously
trying to hold himself accountable the same way I think every CEO should be held
accountable, which is like all the time and for everything.

310
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Everything. For every word, not just did I get it marginally right.

311
00:33:00,883 --> 00:33:10,883
I'm not asking any more of them than they would ask for their own employees. So I
don't want everyone to be like enslaved to this system where they have to work super
hard.

312
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We want to live in a world where when you go to work, you work hard and you try to
be the best at what you do every day. That's what's best for everyone.

313
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Yes.

314
00:33:20,883 --> 00:33:30,883
Work is more fun I think. But even if it's not, even if that ends up being horrible,
we would live in an economy where every single good and service would be such a high
quality.

315
00:33:30,883 --> 00:33:41,883
Think about it. It would be done by someone who not only them but all of their
bosses up to the CEO is working as hard as possible to make it cheap and high
quality for you.

316
00:33:42,883 --> 00:33:45,883
Every single thing would be dirt cheap and just super great.

317
00:33:45,883 --> 00:33:54,883
That's what we want. We want a world where when you're at work, you work, and then
when you go home, you have the most fun in the world and you can take the best
vacations.

318
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People can have 12 weeks of vacation a year or whatever it is.

319
00:33:57,883 --> 00:34:04,883
But when you're at work, you should be a killer. You should be the best at whatever
it is you do.

320
00:34:05,883 --> 00:34:19,883
But Ray Dalio's thing, that idea of past performance informing future results, that
is called induction and that has haunted people who study this type of thing.

321
00:34:19,883 --> 00:34:30,883
Epistemology like what is true, how do we know, what will happen in the future, what
does it mean to know that you know what will happen in the future versus being
deluded.

322
00:34:31,883 --> 00:34:36,883
That's not a great – prediction markets are actually better than that because with
prediction markets, you know yourself.

323
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So you say, I know I got 99 out of the last 100 things wrong, but I know exactly why
every time I know why.

324
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It was because of such and such.

325
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But now the 100th time, I know that I'm going to get it right.

326
00:34:49,883 --> 00:34:52,883
Now with prediction market world, you can mortgage your house.

327
00:34:52,883 --> 00:34:57,883
You can do what people did with Bitcoin and just bet it all on that one thing
because now you know that you're right.

328
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Before, you weren't really sure.

329
00:34:58,883 --> 00:35:00,883
Maybe you only bet $20 each time.

330
00:35:00,883 --> 00:35:04,883
See, so you have a self – you can impose your own confidence.

331
00:35:04,883 --> 00:35:08,883
You have your own self-assessment.

332
00:35:08,883 --> 00:35:10,883
You self-select.

333
00:35:10,883 --> 00:35:17,883
So you say, I don't know anything about if what frozen concentrated orange juice
futures are going to do tomorrow.

334
00:35:17,883 --> 00:35:20,883
I don't know anything about what Tesla is going to do tomorrow, really.

335
00:35:20,883 --> 00:35:24,883
I mean, I have an opinion like every other person, but I don't know.

336
00:35:25,883 --> 00:35:32,883
So why do I – I'm not going to bet on the share price, but I'm going to bet on
something that I know about.

337
00:35:32,883 --> 00:35:38,883
And if I somehow – if I know something that other people don't know, now I'm going
to bet big.

338
00:35:38,883 --> 00:35:40,883
But mostly, I just bet nothing.

339
00:35:40,883 --> 00:35:42,883
So I don't know.

340
00:35:42,883 --> 00:35:49,883
So I think that's an improvement over that scheme that you outlined where people are
just solicited for opinions like at random,

341
00:35:49,883 --> 00:35:53,883
and then they're assessed based on the performance, historical performance.

342
00:35:53,883 --> 00:35:56,883
Paul, okay, wow.

343
00:35:56,883 --> 00:36:02,883
We just did an hour-long introduction to the – or whatever.

344
00:36:02,883 --> 00:36:05,883
My question normally only takes a few minutes, but this is super fascinating.

345
00:36:05,883 --> 00:36:06,883
I think I'm going to start doing this more often.

346
00:36:06,883 --> 00:36:08,883
Okay, but I have a question.

347
00:36:08,883 --> 00:36:10,883
I don't even know where to go.

348
00:36:10,883 --> 00:36:12,883
It's the thing that you agree that you believe that most people don't.

349
00:36:12,883 --> 00:36:15,883
And in Bitcoin, it's going to be my project, Drivechain.

350
00:36:15,883 --> 00:36:17,883
Can you talk about that a little bit?

351
00:36:17,883 --> 00:36:18,883
Yeah.

352
00:36:18,883 --> 00:36:19,883
Can you talk about Drivechain?

353
00:36:19,883 --> 00:36:24,883
The origin of Drivechain is – because I have this other project, a prediction market
project that was called TruthCoins.

354
00:36:24,883 --> 00:36:26,883
That was called Bitcoin Hivemind.

355
00:36:26,883 --> 00:36:31,883
You can go to BitcoinHiveMind.com and have a cool little video there about this
futarky thing that's only 20 minutes.

356
00:36:31,883 --> 00:36:39,883
They gave it at Acapulco 2019, I think, that people can watch if they want to hear
more about whatever that was.

357
00:36:40,883 --> 00:36:47,883
That was software that I wrote this paper about in 2014, early 2014.

358
00:36:47,883 --> 00:36:54,883
And then I wanted – this is like a blockchain peer-to-peer Oracle software.

359
00:36:54,883 --> 00:36:58,883
So it would figure out whether or not Trump won or not, and then it would pay out
people the right way.

360
00:36:58,883 --> 00:37:00,883
And it would also do all the market stuff.

361
00:37:00,883 --> 00:37:03,883
And it would do all this multidimensional stuff that I wanted as well.

362
00:37:03,883 --> 00:37:04,883
So it would do everything.

363
00:37:04,883 --> 00:37:06,883
This is this design.

364
00:37:06,883 --> 00:37:19,883
And so then I worked – it's a long story, but I produced the software in 2015 as its
own kind of blockchain.

365
00:37:19,883 --> 00:37:24,883
But I didn't want it to be an altcoin, and Blockstream was getting really big with
the sidechains idea at the time.

366
00:37:24,883 --> 00:37:32,883
So I thought Blockstream would come out with some kind of sidechains thing that I
could use to bolt it onto Bitcoin.

367
00:37:32,883 --> 00:37:34,883
This was a long time ago.

368
00:37:34,883 --> 00:37:44,883
But then in late 2015, it became obvious that Blockstream had kind of given up on
this original idea of the sidechain, which was this solution to the problem of
altcoins.

369
00:37:44,883 --> 00:37:48,883
There was all this stuff coming out, Ethereum, BitShares, you probably remember.

370
00:37:48,883 --> 00:37:53,883
There was all this stuff like Counterparty that was sort of on Bitcoin, but it's on
blockchains, weird other things.

371
00:37:53,883 --> 00:37:56,883
So all this stuff was coming out.

372
00:37:56,883 --> 00:38:00,883
And it wasn't all obviously super fraudulent.

373
00:38:01,883 --> 00:38:04,883
In the ancient times, you had Bitcoin.

374
00:38:04,883 --> 00:38:09,883
Then you had – the second blockchain actually was Namecoin, which is a great idea.

375
00:38:09,883 --> 00:38:19,883
And it still is a good idea, but it hasn't quite found its – it would be better as a
sidechain, first of all.

376
00:38:19,883 --> 00:38:24,883
But second of all, it has some other complexities that it hasn't quite worked
through yet.

377
00:38:25,883 --> 00:38:31,883
With something like Namecoin, you could have one login for every single site,
including sites that don't exist yet.

378
00:38:31,883 --> 00:38:36,883
So Twitter, YouTube, Facebook, it would all just be the same account tied to the
same name.

379
00:38:36,883 --> 00:38:40,883
You could have age, so you wouldn't need to worry about being impersonated.

380
00:38:40,883 --> 00:38:46,883
You wouldn't need to tell people, here's my Instagram, here's my whatever, like in a
big multi-giant paragraph.

381
00:38:46,883 --> 00:38:48,883
So that's a separate story.

382
00:38:48,883 --> 00:38:55,883
What I really wanted to get at is Litecoin was the first truly offensive altcoin,
where it was just this copy-paste.

383
00:38:55,883 --> 00:38:59,883
Bitcoin does all this work to go from zero to this super cool thing.

384
00:38:59,883 --> 00:39:04,883
And then Litecoin copies and pastes it, and it's like, yeah, look at me. I'm also
great.

385
00:39:04,883 --> 00:39:07,883
Yeah, it'll change three parameters or something like that.

386
00:39:07,883 --> 00:39:09,883
Yeah, exactly. You have a block time.

387
00:39:10,883 --> 00:39:15,883
Yeah, so that was like kind of offensively.

388
00:39:15,883 --> 00:39:27,883
That was like, you know, it was not only kind of a stupid idea, but it was like just
so brazen and sort of absurd.

389
00:39:27,883 --> 00:39:30,883
And then there was a lot of like terrible altcoins after that.

390
00:39:30,883 --> 00:39:34,883
But they started to get some that could have had some kind of plausibility to them.

391
00:39:35,883 --> 00:39:41,883
And in fact, with Counterparty, we had stuff like Mastercoin and Counterparty early
on.

392
00:39:43,883 --> 00:39:51,883
They were kind of weird, but they were onto something, which later became the ICO.

393
00:39:51,883 --> 00:39:53,883
And the ICO is terrible.

394
00:39:53,883 --> 00:39:58,883
Like I think so far, basically every ICO has been like a total scam and a terrible
idea.

395
00:39:58,883 --> 00:40:06,883
But in principle, the idea of the ICO is it should be allowed and it should be on
Bitcoin.

396
00:40:06,883 --> 00:40:09,883
Because Bitcoin should just do anything the customer wants.

397
00:40:09,883 --> 00:40:13,883
Bitcoin should be there ready to go.

398
00:40:13,883 --> 00:40:19,883
It should also be ready to go if you want small blocks and you don't want junk in
the blockchain.

399
00:40:19,883 --> 00:40:22,883
So, you know, Bitcoin should be doing everything that everyone wants.

400
00:40:23,883 --> 00:40:28,883
But including the people who want a very conservative version of Bitcoin.

401
00:40:28,883 --> 00:40:34,883
So this is kind of where this is all going, which is the sidechains idea was people
want different things.

402
00:40:34,883 --> 00:40:38,883
We'll just let them all have their own software and they'll all be interoperable.

403
00:40:38,883 --> 00:40:40,883
Same 21 million Bitcoins, but weird.

404
00:40:40,883 --> 00:40:47,883
If you want their weird Dan Larimer project of the week, or if you want Ethereum,
that was supposed to be RSK, Rootstock.

405
00:40:47,883 --> 00:40:49,883
That started like in 2015.

406
00:40:49,883 --> 00:40:53,883
So that was the point of that.

407
00:40:53,883 --> 00:41:01,883
And so I had reached a point where I had finished Bitcoin Hivemind, the prediction
markets project.

408
00:41:01,883 --> 00:41:05,883
But there was no sidechains technology to bolt it into Bitcoin Core.

409
00:41:05,883 --> 00:41:11,883
So I kind of threw out my own idea in November of 2015, which was Drivechain.

410
00:41:11,883 --> 00:41:16,883
And then in 2016, I kind of like fleshed it out more.

411
00:41:17,883 --> 00:41:23,883
Although the basic design hasn't changed, it's just like added more details and
responded to more questions.

412
00:41:23,883 --> 00:41:36,883
And then it slowly became clear that there was like this weird, there was a problem
of belief, as you say, when you asked me about, you know, what's the thing you
believe that other people don't.

413
00:41:37,883 --> 00:41:54,883
There are all these strange beliefs about sidechains that actually would have
prevented most of the people who were working at Blockstream at the time from ever
even finishing the project of inventing sidechains.

414
00:41:54,883 --> 00:41:56,883
So I kind of like had to do it myself.

415
00:41:56,883 --> 00:42:11,883
And I also, with Drivechain, we built like the software that does these two BIPs,
BIP300/301, that do the sidechain, that let Bitcoin Core send coins out to
other pieces of software and get them back.

416
00:42:11,883 --> 00:42:20,883
But we also built the sidechain template so that you could see, you know, you have
an example of a sidechain.

417
00:42:20,883 --> 00:42:31,883
And in fact, we've already tweaked that template to be like a kind of, you have like
a large block version of Bitcoin and also a Zcash version.

418
00:42:32,883 --> 00:42:34,883
So we're kind of testing all that right now.

419
00:42:35,883 --> 00:42:37,883
But yeah, that's part of what I've been working on.

420
00:42:38,883 --> 00:42:44,883
Hey, Paul, I'm really interested in some of that stuff you just said because I did
interview David from MasterCoin recently.

421
00:42:44,883 --> 00:42:47,883
I interviewed the RSK guys.

422
00:42:48,883 --> 00:42:52,883
You know, I'm from Toronto, so I obviously know – I interviewed Anthony D'Orio, the
founder of Ethereum.

423
00:42:52,883 --> 00:42:54,883
So I know all these things really well.

424
00:42:54,883 --> 00:42:59,883
But curious – okay, first of all, RSK, is that not a sidechain?

425
00:43:00,883 --> 00:43:04,883
Well, yeah, this is the problem is the word has kind of gone crazy.

426
00:43:04,883 --> 00:43:13,883
But did you see Sergio made a recent post and he said that – see, this is the thing.

427
00:43:13,883 --> 00:43:22,883
When you get to the details, it's clear that it's aspiring to be a sidechain, but
not yet a sidechain.

428
00:43:22,883 --> 00:43:23,883
Right.

429
00:43:23,883 --> 00:43:31,883
In Sergio's most recent post about the different two-way peg that he – the new
two-way peg he had researched,

430
00:43:32,883 --> 00:43:37,883
he says that still the long-term goal is to actually make – to put rootstock on
Drivechain,

431
00:43:37,883 --> 00:43:43,883
which is a sidechain secured completely by proof of work and by the mining process.

432
00:43:43,883 --> 00:43:45,883
So it's still aspirational.

433
00:43:46,883 --> 00:43:47,883
Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

434
00:43:47,883 --> 00:43:48,883
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

435
00:43:48,883 --> 00:43:56,883
But it's similar to what Blockstream had always said about the federated peg, that
that was always supposed to be aspirational.

436
00:43:56,883 --> 00:44:02,883
That was like, we slap this Band-Aid on, we'll just get this so we can get something
going.

437
00:44:02,883 --> 00:44:09,883
But the goal was always to make it lose its reliance on these third parties,
custodians.

438
00:44:11,883 --> 00:44:12,883
Okay, this is super interesting.

439
00:44:12,883 --> 00:44:18,883
What is it about – first of all, just so people know because we didn't really do the
intro,

440
00:44:18,883 --> 00:44:23,883
but do you consider yourself like a Bitcoin core developer at one point, or are you,

441
00:44:23,883 --> 00:44:26,883
or do you consider yourself more like – I guess, yeah.

442
00:44:26,883 --> 00:44:30,883
I would definitely say like – sorry, I'm pouring myself some water.

443
00:44:30,883 --> 00:44:31,883
It's all good.

444
00:44:31,883 --> 00:44:36,883
I would say that I am a Bitcoin maximalist and a Bitcoin core contributor.

445
00:44:36,883 --> 00:44:44,883
Certainly people have cited a lot of stuff I've written on my blog and passed it
around, so for whatever that's worth.

446
00:44:45,883 --> 00:44:53,883
Some of the other stuff on my blog is ignored and still is ripe for being stolen and
passed around years later.

447
00:44:53,883 --> 00:44:57,883
But I think that – I don't know.

448
00:44:57,883 --> 00:45:00,883
I've been invited to speak at the scaling conferences.

449
00:45:00,883 --> 00:45:03,883
I was on the program committee at one point.

450
00:45:03,883 --> 00:45:04,883
Oh, okay.

451
00:45:04,883 --> 00:45:05,883
I don't know.

452
00:45:05,883 --> 00:45:07,883
Dude, so I have your blog open, okay?

453
00:45:07,883 --> 00:45:09,883
And I was reading through it before our call.

454
00:45:09,883 --> 00:45:12,883
So I got to ask you a couple of – for some TLDRs here.

455
00:45:12,883 --> 00:45:19,883
So, okay, first one is – the first one, why proof of stake isn't cheaper and isn't
better than proof of work, okay?

456
00:45:19,883 --> 00:45:21,883
Can you talk to me about this?

457
00:45:21,883 --> 00:45:24,883
Because, I mean, if you look through my interviews, I mean like three or four of
them.

458
00:45:24,883 --> 00:45:27,883
I'm like trying to figure this out by asking people.

459
00:45:27,883 --> 00:45:29,883
I'm trying to figure it out myself because, you know, if you see –

460
00:45:29,883 --> 00:45:30,883
Talk to me, man.

461
00:45:30,883 --> 00:45:31,883
Talk to me.

462
00:45:31,883 --> 00:45:36,883
If you check the comment section on – where I wrote the one that got really famous
was nothing is cheaper than proof of work.

463
00:45:36,883 --> 00:45:38,883
That was in 2015.

464
00:45:39,883 --> 00:45:42,883
And in the comment section, like people show up – Jake Kwan, Vlad Zamfir.

465
00:45:42,883 --> 00:45:50,883
And I thought that I had convinced them that proof of stake is not cheaper than
proof of work.

466
00:45:50,883 --> 00:45:51,883
Okay.

467
00:45:51,883 --> 00:45:56,883
Talk to me why it isn't cheaper because, I mean, that sounds super counterintuitive
because the narrative is not that.

468
00:45:56,883 --> 00:46:00,883
I changed the intuition because, okay, each block has a certain block reward.

469
00:46:00,883 --> 00:46:05,883
So let's just – what you have to do is temporarily, for the sake of argument and
simplicity, in fact,

470
00:46:05,883 --> 00:46:10,883
abstract away from the idea that Bitcoin has 21 million coins and Ethereum has some
other thing.

471
00:46:10,883 --> 00:46:16,883
Just imagine they all have 21 million coins and they're all 50 coins for four years
and then it gets halved

472
00:46:16,883 --> 00:46:22,883
because that's a whole separate thing that has nothing to do with the point that I'm
about to make at all.

473
00:46:22,883 --> 00:46:23,883
But it's confusing.

474
00:46:23,883 --> 00:46:26,883
It would be misleading to you if you get distracted by that detail.

475
00:46:26,883 --> 00:46:27,883
Okay.

476
00:46:27,883 --> 00:46:28,883
I'm with you.

477
00:46:28,883 --> 00:46:33,883
And by Bitcoin and Ethereum, I really just mean like Bitcoin with proof of work and
Bitcoin with proof of stake.

478
00:46:33,883 --> 00:46:34,883
Maybe that's easier.

479
00:46:34,883 --> 00:46:35,883
I don't know why.

480
00:46:35,883 --> 00:46:38,883
You know, because Ethereum people are so crazy about proof of stake.

481
00:46:38,883 --> 00:46:47,883
So you have – in each case, you have whatever it is, a certain amount of coins
coming in every block.

482
00:46:47,883 --> 00:46:50,883
So right now it's 6.25.

483
00:46:50,883 --> 00:46:52,883
But let's just say – because it's easier with 50.

484
00:46:52,883 --> 00:46:57,883
And, you know, let's say there's one Bitcoin worth of fees because there usually is.

485
00:46:57,883 --> 00:47:00,883
So let's say there's 51 Bitcoin every block.

486
00:47:00,883 --> 00:47:03,883
This is totally – this has nothing to do with the meat of the argument at all.

487
00:47:03,883 --> 00:47:04,883
This is just for simplicity.

488
00:47:04,883 --> 00:47:08,883
Just say every single block has 51 coins going to the miners.

489
00:47:08,883 --> 00:47:10,883
I'm with you 100% so far.

490
00:47:10,883 --> 00:47:15,883
You know, these coins, let's make it even simpler and say the exchange rate never
changes.

491
00:47:15,883 --> 00:47:20,883
And it's always – let's just say it's always $10 per Bitcoin, you know.

492
00:47:20,883 --> 00:47:21,883
Okay.

493
00:47:21,883 --> 00:47:22,883
I'm with you.

494
00:47:22,883 --> 00:47:23,883
What a horrible thought.

495
00:47:23,883 --> 00:47:24,883
Well, it's a science project.

496
00:47:24,883 --> 00:47:26,883
These are the fixed variables.

497
00:47:26,883 --> 00:47:27,883
Okay.

498
00:47:27,883 --> 00:47:28,883
Go ahead.

499
00:47:28,883 --> 00:47:33,883
Anyone can join $510, right?

500
00:47:33,883 --> 00:47:36,883
So every block is worth $510.

501
00:47:36,883 --> 00:47:38,883
And who gets the block?

502
00:47:38,883 --> 00:47:42,883
Anyone can get it because anyone can join the mining process at any time.

503
00:47:42,883 --> 00:47:48,883
And even if they can't, anyone could join whatever it was that shortlisted them at
some point, you know.

504
00:47:48,883 --> 00:47:52,883
It's an open process.

505
00:47:52,883 --> 00:48:02,883
It's not like something where there are only 12 federal board of governors for the
Federal Reserve and it's capped at 12.

506
00:48:02,883 --> 00:48:03,883
You can't get more.

507
00:48:03,883 --> 00:48:05,883
You can't get 13.

508
00:48:05,883 --> 00:48:11,883
So the blocks are worth $510 every block, every 10 minutes.

509
00:48:11,883 --> 00:48:19,883
So what I say in the post is that this is a lot like a guy going up on the stage and
auctioning off a briefcase with $510 in it.

510
00:48:19,883 --> 00:48:24,883
He says, I'm going to sell this to the highest bidder.

511
00:48:24,883 --> 00:48:26,883
Anyone can bid.

512
00:48:26,883 --> 00:48:27,883
Here it is.

513
00:48:27,883 --> 00:48:29,883
It's $510.

514
00:48:29,883 --> 00:48:35,883
So what do you think it's going to go for at the end of the day?

515
00:48:35,883 --> 00:48:39,883
It's going to go for like $509, you know.

516
00:48:39,883 --> 00:48:41,883
We're going to bid.

517
00:48:41,883 --> 00:48:43,883
No one's going to bid $510.

518
00:48:43,883 --> 00:48:46,883
Certainly no one's going to bid $520.

519
00:48:46,883 --> 00:48:47,883
Right?

520
00:48:47,883 --> 00:48:48,883
I see what you're saying.

521
00:48:48,883 --> 00:48:50,883
It has nothing to do with proof-of-work, proof-of-stake.

522
00:48:50,883 --> 00:48:52,883
That's how valuable the blocks are.

523
00:48:52,883 --> 00:49:02,883
So whatever the system is, people are going to fight over that until they can get
the – it's the money coming in that is the problem.

524
00:49:02,883 --> 00:49:07,883
It's not the structure of proof-of-work, proof-of-stake.

525
00:49:07,883 --> 00:49:09,883
It's the money coming in.

526
00:49:09,883 --> 00:49:10,883
The money coming in.

527
00:49:10,883 --> 00:49:12,883
That's the same in both scenarios.

528
00:49:12,883 --> 00:49:14,883
So it would be the same as proof-of-stake.

529
00:49:14,883 --> 00:49:17,883
Proof-of-stake, you have to pledge coins.

530
00:49:17,883 --> 00:49:19,883
You have to lock up these coins.

531
00:49:19,883 --> 00:49:21,883
That has a cost.

532
00:49:21,883 --> 00:49:26,883
That's money that's not spent in the economy or invested in the economy.

533
00:49:26,883 --> 00:49:39,883
But worse than that, it's misleading because in proof-of-work, this money that's
spent on electricity or whatever, on stuff, it's easy for a human being to think
about.

534
00:49:39,883 --> 00:49:47,883
Imagine in their mind a giant waterfall with giant turbines and Bitcoin mining
equipment humming really loudly, little lights and things.

535
00:49:47,883 --> 00:49:50,883
But with Ethereum, it would just be staked.

536
00:49:50,883 --> 00:49:54,883
And so much more money would be lost.

537
00:49:55,033 --> 00:50:06,033
Much more money would be staked than burned because it would be like the interest.
So if the interest rate is like 5%, you burn $5 in proof-of-work world, you'd lock
up $100 in the proof-of-stake world, 20 times as much.

538
00:50:06,033 --> 00:50:17,033
And in fact, a lot of people aren't using their coins for anything. But far from
that being a sign of efficiency, all that means is that even more money would be
locked up.

539
00:50:18,033 --> 00:50:27,033
All that money would be locked up and then some because that's the equivalent of
free energy somewhere in the proof-of-work world. So what would happen if there's a
giant waterfall with free energy?

540
00:50:37,033 --> 00:50:40,033
So you said, what would happen if a waterfall had free energy?

541
00:50:40,033 --> 00:50:52,033
In the proof-of-work world, you just burn all that energy. So it's free, but because
it's so cheap, you burn it. So this is equivalent to, in the proof-of-stake world,
money that people aren't using for anything.

542
00:50:52,033 --> 00:51:04,033
Well sure, they'll stake it in proof-of-stake, but this just means more money is
staked. So the amount of money that would be staked in the proof-of-stake world
would be enormous. It would be an absurd amount of money.

543
00:51:04,033 --> 00:51:16,033
It would be much more than is spent in proof-of-work. It wouldn't be destroyed, but
it would be staked. So whatever you could have used it to invest in something, you
would not be able to.

544
00:51:16,033 --> 00:51:25,033
I see that. I see that point. Is that the main argument? So that those funds could
have been used for something else?

545
00:51:25,033 --> 00:51:43,033
It's not just the staked funds though. I have no idea. It depends on the details of
proof-of-stake. It's like if you're offline, you can be slashed. So it's like will
people compete on denial of service attacking each other or will they compete on
building software or hardware that stops them from being denial of service attacked?

546
00:51:43,033 --> 00:51:56,033
The real problem is the money coming in. If that much money is coming in, that means
you have a big incentive to collect the money and to be the only one collecting that
money. You want to kick everyone else off.

547
00:51:57,033 --> 00:52:11,033
That means you have an incentive to do all this stuff. It's a huge amount of money.
Think about how much the numbers actually are in Bitcoin. How much is it? It's like
seven or eight Bitcoin, $20,000 a coin.

548
00:52:11,033 --> 00:52:38,033
It's like hundreds of millions of dollars per week, billions of dollars per year. So
that's all yours if you can just knock everyone else on the network off. Or if you
can just give yourself a 1% advantage, it's like $100 million.

549
00:52:38,033 --> 00:52:51,033
So whatever it is, people will be looking for a way, and that is the real reason.
But this is just one example that I just want to show that locking up money does
have some cost.

550
00:52:51,033 --> 00:53:06,033
The fact that you can't deploy money in the economy, that is a cost. Probably more
so than just some stupid waterfall that you're going to run a little bit more water
through the turbines than over the top.

551
00:53:07,033 --> 00:53:21,033
But I don't know. The point is the role of the economist isn't to actually chart it
all out. It's just this equilibrium thing. There's a certain amount of money that's
coming in. So that's how much money will be wasted, wasted in quotes.

552
00:53:22,033 --> 00:53:33,033
See, that's $510 comes in. The auctioneer auctions it off. The person pays $509,
$509 wasted. It shouldn't be different in proof of stake.

553
00:53:34,033 --> 00:53:48,033
Everyone's attempting to convince me that it will be different. I haven't been
convinced, hence these posts. So that's why it won't be cheaper. As far as it not
being better, there are a lot of problems with proof of stake.

554
00:53:49,033 --> 00:54:01,033
At a certain point, people have just stopped arguing. I think, though, in a way, the
results speak for themselves, though, because proof of stake has been just three
months away in Ethereum since 2015.

555
00:54:02,033 --> 00:54:10,033
In fact, I remember at Certia Roundtable 3, what would that have been? Like 2017, I
think.

556
00:54:11,033 --> 00:54:38,033
We were in a big group. This guy was talking about the greatness of proof of stake
and the greatness of Ethereum. He was so convinced, he literally offered to buy me a
ticket to fly to Paris in April for this proof of stake unveiling.

557
00:54:39,033 --> 00:54:44,033
This was in late January. He was so convinced. He was like, and you can watch as we
turn on proof of stake.

558
00:54:45,033 --> 00:54:53,033
He was just brimming with confidence, and I told him, well, I've been hearing this
for a long time. I've been hearing this for years. For years, people have said, it's
three months away.

559
00:54:57,033 --> 00:55:00,033
All of those people have been just as confident as you, and don't you realize that?

560
00:55:01,033 --> 00:55:06,033
He said, yes, I realize that I sound exactly like those other people, but this time
it's for real.

561
00:55:08,033 --> 00:55:10,033
That was April 2017, but still no proof of stake, right?

562
00:55:12,033 --> 00:55:19,033
I kind of even lost track, to be honest. Ethereum 2.0 was unveiled, right?

563
00:55:20,033 --> 00:55:27,033
Yeah, but isn't that just a coupon? It doesn't do anything. It's just a coupon for
when Ethereum 2.0 comes out, you can claim it.

564
00:55:28,033 --> 00:55:32,033
Interesting. So they've got nothing to do with proof of stake? They haven't even
gotten closer?

565
00:55:33,033 --> 00:55:35,033
They get closer every time. I don't know.

566
00:55:36,033 --> 00:55:39,033
What is it fundamentally that why they're not able to solve this problem?

567
00:55:40,033 --> 00:55:44,033
I don't know. I think they may be making progress towards solving it. I just think
the results speak for themselves.

568
00:55:45,033 --> 00:55:46,033
Is it a worthy problem to solve?

569
00:55:47,033 --> 00:55:49,033
It's not cheaper. That's my point. The whole point was it was cheaper.

570
00:55:50,033 --> 00:55:56,033
I'm supposed to avoid this cost, but the cost is not a function of the fact that
it's burning energy.

571
00:55:57,033 --> 00:56:03,033
The cost is a shadow of really what's happening, which is the problem that the
blocks are valuable.

572
00:56:04,033 --> 00:56:09,033
Because they're valuable, people fight over them, and that fighting is the wasted
energy.

573
00:56:10,033 --> 00:56:18,033
And the good idea from Satoshi was to not only make it so that fighting contributed
to something,

574
00:56:19,033 --> 00:56:22,033
which in this case is denial of service prevention.

575
00:56:23,033 --> 00:56:24,033
When you get a block header, you can check immediately.

576
00:56:25,033 --> 00:56:28,033
SPV mode also that millions of people use today.

577
00:56:29,033 --> 00:56:31,033
You can check all the block headers in like half a second.

578
00:56:32,033 --> 00:56:35,033
This is four megabytes per year. You can check that you're on the highest work
chain.

579
00:56:36,033 --> 00:56:39,033
But when you get a new header, you can check the header instantly.

580
00:56:40,033 --> 00:56:43,033
Take the hash. The hash has the right number of zeros, the right value.

581
00:56:44,033 --> 00:56:46,033
You can check immediately. You just check 80 bytes.

582
00:56:47,033 --> 00:56:52,033
Then you know whether or not the person is a valid peer, if they're a good guy.

583
00:56:53,033 --> 00:56:57,033
So not only does it do that, but for them to make it cumulative proof of work.

584
00:56:58,033 --> 00:57:01,033
Now every new link in the chain makes the entire chain more secure.

585
00:57:01,033 --> 00:57:04,033
That was a good idea. There's no real reason to, you know.

586
00:57:05,033 --> 00:57:08,033
I think the other thing is people were concerned about the 51% attack, so there was
a hope.

587
00:57:09,033 --> 00:57:15,033
Like back in 2010 or something, if you go ancient Bitcoin talk post-hunting,

588
00:57:16,033 --> 00:57:18,033
you can find some stuff about proof of stake.

589
00:57:19,033 --> 00:57:20,033
People thought, oh, this will be great.

590
00:57:21,033 --> 00:57:24,033
It's immune to the 51% attack and it doesn't waste any electricity.

591
00:57:25,033 --> 00:57:26,033
Like this is the best idea ever.

592
00:57:27,033 --> 00:57:35,033
But I think a lot of the stuff about the 51% attack is also just a lack of
confidence in Bitcoin.

593
00:57:36,033 --> 00:57:38,033
And maybe even in like freedom or something or whatever you want to call it as well.

594
00:57:39,033 --> 00:57:43,033
Because it's designed to be a process to keep everyone in line.

595
00:57:44,033 --> 00:57:51,033
And the whole 51% attack thing is like solving the wrong problem.

596
00:57:51,033 --> 00:57:55,033
The 51% attack assumes that you somehow know what's true in advance.

597
00:57:56,033 --> 00:58:01,033
And you can just, it's only a matter of convincing the other people that your way is
the best.

598
00:58:02,033 --> 00:58:06,033
But the 51, the hash rate thing, the heaviest chain rule,

599
00:58:07,033 --> 00:58:13,033
that is a method for resolving disputes when like different parts of the world find
blocks at different times

600
00:58:14,033 --> 00:58:15,033
or disagree over what should be in a block.

601
00:58:16,033 --> 00:58:19,033
Or some people say that block is censoring me and other people say, no, it's not.

602
00:58:19,033 --> 00:58:21,033
And people say, you know, you suck or whatever.

603
00:58:22,033 --> 00:58:25,033
So it's a process for like finding the truth.

604
00:58:26,033 --> 00:58:30,033
Whereas I think a lot of people just think in their mind, they think, well, what if
this happened?

605
00:58:31,033 --> 00:58:33,033
That's not what I want. How can I get everyone to do what I want?

606
00:58:34,033 --> 00:58:37,033
So it's kind of an anti-liberty thing to even worry about the 51% attack.

607
00:58:38,033 --> 00:58:41,033
But to some small extent, not to a big extent.

608
00:58:42,033 --> 00:58:45,033
But this was all the stuff that was driving people towards proof of stake in the
past.

609
00:58:45,033 --> 00:58:50,033
But I think it absolutely is not – if you're smart enough to work on something like
this, you should do something else.

610
00:58:51,033 --> 00:58:55,033
Especially if there's merge mining, you get all of Bitcoin's hash rate for free.

611
00:58:58,033 --> 00:59:02,033
Hey, one more thing. Why smart contracts are bad for Bitcoin?

612
00:59:03,033 --> 00:59:10,033
Curious if you can kind of help give the TLDR on that one.

613
00:59:11,033 --> 00:59:13,033
I apologize. I should have read it before, but I'm definitely going to read it after
this.

614
00:59:14,033 --> 00:59:21,033
But again, my kind of layman's whatever term in terms of what I thought it was, was
that – what were the big criticisms?

615
00:59:22,033 --> 00:59:28,033
One was it was an attack factor potentially. I think it would bloat the block sizes
or something.

616
00:59:29,033 --> 00:59:35,033
I mean, there was a couple of different things that, I don't know, that were said to
me back in the day before Ethereum became –

617
00:59:36,033 --> 00:59:41,033
because I literally talked to Vitalik and he was like, look, we're going to do smart
contracts on our own blockchain.

618
00:59:41,033 --> 00:59:47,033
And Bitcoin core developers will never allow it. And that was kind of their thing,
right?

619
00:59:48,033 --> 00:59:51,033
So I'm curious why you're saying why smart contracts are bad for Bitcoin.

620
00:59:52,033 --> 00:59:57,033
But then is that eventually getting to the point that something like Drivechain or
sidechains should be used?

621
00:59:58,033 --> 01:00:02,033
Well, it's a question of – yeah, people should be able to try out their own thing.

622
01:00:03,033 --> 01:00:05,033
It's kind of annoying because with Drivechain, it's kind of just like the free
market.

623
01:00:06,033 --> 01:00:08,033
And it just says these pieces of software should compete.

624
01:00:08,033 --> 01:00:12,033
And it shouldn't matter my opinion on what should or shouldn't be done.

625
01:00:13,033 --> 01:00:19,033
So you see what I mean? If I were an entrepreneur, I would implicitly have a lot of
theories about how a business should be run.

626
01:00:20,033 --> 01:00:21,033
There's no getting around it.

627
01:00:22,033 --> 01:00:28,033
So I say, I think you should open on time. I think you should have a customer
service number or whatever.

628
01:00:29,033 --> 01:00:34,033
I think you should sell goods that are really expensive on purpose so that only rich
people buy them and it becomes trendy.

629
01:00:35,033 --> 01:00:37,033
You can have all these theories when you start a business.

630
01:00:38,033 --> 01:00:43,033
That's different from saying – but Drivechain is like saying there shouldn't be a
monopoly.

631
01:00:44,033 --> 01:00:53,033
It shouldn't just be Bitcoin Core or the desolate wasteland of competing with
Bitcoin Core, starting your own altcoin or whatever.

632
01:00:54,033 --> 01:00:57,033
So that's a different thing. It depends.

633
01:00:58,033 --> 01:01:07,033
I think oracles are good, but smart contracts are kind of a sad imitation of
oracles.

634
01:01:08,033 --> 01:01:12,033
Oracles are the real smart contracts. That's a really important blog post.

635
01:01:13,033 --> 01:01:19,033
Some smart contracts are set up so that they interfere with other smart contracts.

636
01:01:20,033 --> 01:01:26,033
It's not good for it to be general purpose actually because that eliminates classes
of activity that are possible.

637
01:01:27,033 --> 01:01:36,033
So it's kind of like if you had a world where anyone could steal your name or your
brand.

638
01:01:39,033 --> 01:01:41,033
Sorry, a little bit of background noise there.

639
01:01:42,033 --> 01:01:43,033
That was me at my side.

640
01:01:44,033 --> 01:01:45,033
Some people are having fun.

641
01:01:46,033 --> 01:01:48,033
Okay, what was I saying?

642
01:01:49,033 --> 01:01:57,033
So imagine that – so in the past, cattle ranchers – the word brand in business, it
actually comes from branding.

643
01:01:58,033 --> 01:02:01,033
I don't know if it's cattle or whatever, but it's branding livestock.

644
01:02:02,033 --> 01:02:08,033
It would literally brand them with a literal brand because then they'd go out and
graze and then you'd have to get them back.

645
01:02:09,033 --> 01:02:15,033
So you'd let them out into the world where there was some part of it that was
uncontrolled.

646
01:02:16,033 --> 01:02:19,033
They'd go up to graze in the pasture and then they'd get them back.

647
01:02:20,033 --> 01:02:23,033
And then you had to make sure that you only took back the ones that were yours.

648
01:02:24,033 --> 01:02:29,033
So there were all these rules about you can't take – someone owns a certain brand,
like a certain piece of information.

649
01:02:30,033 --> 01:02:33,033
Because you couldn't steal – you couldn't say, oh, this is my brand.

650
01:02:34,033 --> 01:02:38,033
There had to be some kind of – if there was a dispute, oh, this brand is mine, this
one is mine.

651
01:02:39,033 --> 01:02:41,033
So you had to go and register them somewhere.

652
01:02:42,033 --> 01:02:51,033
So in that world, if you couldn't do the brand registration technology, then it
would be impossible to have property rights over cattle in that particular way.

653
01:02:52,033 --> 01:02:59,033
Sometimes if there's too much freedom, it only means that complexity isn't possible.

654
01:03:00,033 --> 01:03:05,033
So there's a limit to how much whatever free enterprise you can even have.

655
01:03:07,033 --> 01:03:12,033
I mean one thing that's caught I think a lot of people's attention is have you heard
of – what is it called?

656
01:03:13,033 --> 01:03:14,033
Oh my god, Uniswap?

657
01:03:15,033 --> 01:03:16,033
Yes.

658
01:03:16,033 --> 01:03:17,033
Have you heard of these guys?

659
01:03:17,033 --> 01:03:18,033
I don't know about them.

660
01:03:19,033 --> 01:03:29,033
Well, I guess what I'm getting at though is that – so UnoCoin, the company I started
in 2013, 2012, were like a centralized exchange.

661
01:03:30,033 --> 01:03:35,033
I'm not going to lie, I've thought really deeply about building a decentralized
exchange.

662
01:03:36,033 --> 01:03:37,033
And you know what I mean?

663
01:03:38,033 --> 01:03:42,033
I shared with you before our call about this whole notion of what happened in India.

664
01:03:42,033 --> 01:03:50,033
I won't go into it, but I mean yeah, I think about how can the world function
without a centralized entity a lot.

665
01:03:51,033 --> 01:03:58,033
And so Uniswap to me kind of – I mean they're doing more volume than I don't know on
some days, more than Coinbase, more than Binance.

666
01:03:59,033 --> 01:04:05,033
So this project like Ethereum that I've been super critical of, many have been
critical of in my eyes.

667
01:04:06,033 --> 01:04:10,033
ICOs, yeah, I get it, super scammy, try to stay away from as much of it as possible.

668
01:04:11,033 --> 01:04:20,033
But something like Uniswap where they're just enabling peer-to-peer trades seems
like a legitimate kind of cause.

669
01:04:21,033 --> 01:04:26,033
And I guess where I'm going with this is that I know some people have kind of forked
it to build it on RSK.

670
01:04:27,033 --> 01:04:35,033
But I wonder, what's kind of held me back is that it would be kind of weird to build
a Bitcoin decentralized exchange on top of Ethereum,

671
01:04:36,033 --> 01:04:39,033
given that I'm a Bitcoiner as well and I see all these holes in it.

672
01:04:40,033 --> 01:04:42,033
So how does one address that problem?

673
01:04:43,033 --> 01:04:44,033
I thought this was supposed to be about freedom.

674
01:04:45,033 --> 01:04:46,033
What happened to Bitcoin user not affected?

675
01:04:47,033 --> 01:04:51,033
What happened to just doing whatever you want?

676
01:04:52,033 --> 01:04:54,033
But now you have to conform to this weird culture.

677
01:04:55,033 --> 01:05:08,033
There is a delusion I think that – I mean it is mostly true that the altcoin
technology is just terrible and it's not even worth copying and stealing.

678
01:05:09,033 --> 01:05:11,033
But that's not completely true.

679
01:05:12,033 --> 01:05:16,033
I mean, as I was saying, one of the things, MasterCoin and Counterparty, right?

680
01:05:17,033 --> 01:05:18,033
I know both, yeah.

681
01:05:19,033 --> 01:05:20,033
They were total scams, but they were ahead.

682
01:05:21,033 --> 01:05:27,033
That would have been on Bitcoin if there was some kind of parallel future where that
could have been healthily integrated into Bitcoin.

683
01:05:28,033 --> 01:05:29,033
That was all on Bitcoin first.

684
01:05:30,033 --> 01:05:35,033
Now, the other thing though is that what are now I guess the non-fungible tokens or
whatever you want to call them, the NFTs.

685
01:05:35,033 --> 01:05:37,033
The stuff that's just funny like the Spells of Genesis.

686
01:05:38,033 --> 01:05:39,033
Remember Rare Pepe?

687
01:05:40,033 --> 01:05:46,033
Like all this weird screwball stuff and CryptoKitties on Ethereum.

688
01:05:47,033 --> 01:05:50,033
So people like that kind of stuff.

689
01:05:51,033 --> 01:05:52,033
That's just like digital art.

690
01:05:53,033 --> 01:05:54,033
That's like fun.

691
01:05:55,033 --> 01:05:56,033
That's like a pure internet thing.

692
01:05:57,033 --> 01:06:01,033
That's like you think of like keyboard cap or you think of like whatever, like early
YouTube videos.

693
01:06:02,033 --> 01:06:03,033
People are just having fun.

694
01:06:03,033 --> 01:06:05,033
Marquee tags in HTML.

695
01:06:06,033 --> 01:06:09,033
It's just like people having fun on the internet.

696
01:06:14,033 --> 01:06:16,033
So there's all this stuff that was tried.

697
01:06:17,033 --> 01:06:21,033
A lot of it was bad, but some of it is good.

698
01:06:22,033 --> 01:06:30,033
I think increasingly there's just this delusion in Bitcoin that all the other stuff
and all the other coins can be ignored.

699
01:06:31,033 --> 01:06:36,033
And there's a lot of great stuff like I like David Vorek's SIA project.

700
01:06:37,033 --> 01:06:40,033
You just type in 12 words and it can regenerate your hard drive.

701
01:06:41,033 --> 01:06:43,033
It's like that storage idea, the bit hard drive idea.

702
01:06:44,033 --> 01:06:48,033
So it's like pay people to store all your files and get them all back from the
blockchain.

703
01:06:51,033 --> 01:06:53,033
And then there's like the Zcash stuff.

704
01:06:54,033 --> 01:06:58,033
The Monero Zcash stuff, like other stuff for people who want to mix their coins so
that they don't have to just do.

705
01:06:58,033 --> 01:07:03,033
Right now you're like stuck with CoinJoin or like Whirlpool.

706
01:07:04,033 --> 01:07:05,033
You CoinJoin with like five people.

707
01:07:06,033 --> 01:07:08,033
You have to pay a transaction fee every time, layer one transaction fee.

708
01:07:09,033 --> 01:07:11,033
You could be easily sybilled.

709
01:07:12,033 --> 01:07:16,033
You have to pay the Whirlpool fee if you use Samurai.

710
01:07:18,033 --> 01:07:19,033
Whirlpool.

711
01:07:21,033 --> 01:07:23,033
That's great. I mean everyone knows that you're doing it.

712
01:07:24,033 --> 01:07:25,033
Everyone can see it on the blockchain.

713
01:07:26,033 --> 01:07:27,033
That's CoinJoin.

714
01:07:29,033 --> 01:07:33,033
Stuff like what Monero and Zcash are doing is better than that.

715
01:07:34,033 --> 01:07:36,033
People talk about liquidity.

716
01:07:37,033 --> 01:07:40,033
They say not a lot of people are using XYZ so it's worse.

717
01:07:41,033 --> 01:07:45,033
But the technique is either better or worse and then you get all the users.

718
01:07:46,033 --> 01:07:51,033
If it was all smooth, they would get the users and they would get the liquidity
problem.

719
01:07:52,033 --> 01:07:53,033
That's a chicken and egg problem.

720
01:07:54,033 --> 01:07:55,033
So there's other great stuff.

721
01:07:59,033 --> 01:08:00,033
Yeah, a lot of the stuff.

722
01:08:01,033 --> 01:08:03,033
I was just talking with my other friend.

723
01:08:04,033 --> 01:08:13,033
I was saying with enough trial and error, Ethereum will eventually create good
stuff, unfortunately.

724
01:08:14,033 --> 01:08:15,033
And that's true of anything with trial and error.

725
01:08:16,033 --> 01:08:17,033
And he said there was not enough trial and error.

726
01:08:18,033 --> 01:08:21,033
But eventually what I brought up was that evolution created human beings.

727
01:08:22,033 --> 01:08:25,033
And everything that we built, symphonies and everything,

728
01:08:25,033 --> 01:08:28,033
just from trial and error on some little molecules.

729
01:08:29,033 --> 01:08:31,033
So trial and error is very strong.

730
01:08:32,033 --> 01:08:40,033
And people in Bitcoin, this kind of cult has taken over Bitcoin.

731
01:08:41,033 --> 01:08:42,033
It just says it's preordained for victory.

732
01:08:43,033 --> 01:08:49,033
And whatever it was, Satoshi's design is the absolute best.

733
01:08:50,033 --> 01:08:51,033
And everything else is a corruption of the design.

734
01:08:52,033 --> 01:08:57,033
And that is what prevents people from being interested in Drivechain.

735
01:08:58,033 --> 01:09:00,033
Because Drivechain says, hey, what about you could have a big block sidechain?

736
01:09:01,033 --> 01:09:02,033
And people say, big blocks suck.

737
01:09:03,033 --> 01:09:04,033
How dare you even suggest that?

738
01:09:05,033 --> 01:09:09,033
That's just the unpeople who do that.

739
01:09:10,033 --> 01:09:16,033
But meanwhile, Roger Ver has a nice wallet that's low fees and it's good experience.

740
01:09:16,033 --> 01:09:20,033
So the point of Drivechain is that, similar to prediction markets,

741
01:09:21,033 --> 01:09:22,033
it's kind of a utopian thing.

742
01:09:23,033 --> 01:09:26,033
In my brain, it's like in the Drivechain world,

743
01:09:27,033 --> 01:09:33,033
none of the Bitcoiners hate Vitalik or something.

744
01:09:34,033 --> 01:09:35,033
That's what I'm trying to say.

745
01:09:36,033 --> 01:09:37,033
They're like, well, we have this weird guy, Vitalik,

746
01:09:38,033 --> 01:09:39,033
but he's got this crazy Ethereum project that's kind of cool.

747
01:09:40,033 --> 01:09:41,033
They're all shills for Ethereum,

748
01:09:42,033 --> 01:09:44,033
because Ethereum uses the 21 million Bitcoin coin limit

749
01:09:44,033 --> 01:09:45,033
and there's no second token.

750
01:09:46,033 --> 01:09:47,033
There's no altcoin.

751
01:09:48,033 --> 01:09:49,033
It would never have been invented like that.

752
01:09:50,033 --> 01:09:51,033
You know what I mean?

753
01:09:52,033 --> 01:09:53,033
People would mix their coins on Zcash.

754
01:09:54,033 --> 01:09:57,033
They'd send their Bitcoin to Zcash as a sidechain.

755
01:09:58,033 --> 01:09:59,033
Zcash wouldn't be its own coin.

756
01:10:00,033 --> 01:10:02,033
They'd send it there and they'd mix the coins over there,

757
01:10:03,033 --> 01:10:04,033
where they get super zk-SNARK mixing,

758
01:10:05,033 --> 01:10:06,033
and then send them back.

759
01:10:07,033 --> 01:10:10,033
Unilateral mixing with every single person in the Zcash pool,

760
01:10:10,033 --> 01:10:11,033
with just two transactions,

761
01:10:12,033 --> 01:10:15,033
instead of Whirlpool where you mix with four other people

762
01:10:16,033 --> 01:10:17,033
and you have to do it every time,

763
01:10:18,033 --> 01:10:19,033
over and over again.

764
01:10:20,033 --> 01:10:23,033
There's all this other stuff.

765
01:10:24,033 --> 01:10:26,033
David Vork's thing isn't its own altcoin,

766
01:10:27,033 --> 01:10:28,033
it's with Bitcoin.

767
01:10:29,033 --> 01:10:30,033
All these things are Bitcoin projects,

768
01:10:31,033 --> 01:10:32,033
so everyone is on a team.

769
01:10:33,033 --> 01:10:34,033
Everyone's actually supporting each other.

770
01:10:35,033 --> 01:10:36,033
Everyone's shilling.

771
01:10:37,033 --> 01:10:38,033
Like Pierre Rochard, Dan Held,

772
01:10:39,033 --> 01:10:41,033
they would be shilling Ethereum.

773
01:10:42,033 --> 01:10:44,033
It would be a topsy-turvy world.

774
01:10:45,033 --> 01:10:46,033
And vice versa,

775
01:10:47,033 --> 01:10:49,033
because demand for Ethereum would be going into Bitcoin.

776
01:10:50,033 --> 01:10:51,033
The public right now, I think,

777
01:10:52,033 --> 01:10:54,033
is baffled by crypto.

778
01:10:55,033 --> 01:10:56,033
They're just like,

779
01:10:57,033 --> 01:10:58,033
what is going on?

780
01:10:59,033 --> 01:11:00,033
They don't know what to do.

781
01:11:01,033 --> 01:11:02,033
They're like, I'm going to wait until they figure this out

782
01:11:03,033 --> 01:11:04,033
before I invest.

783
01:11:04,033 --> 01:11:05,033
It's not unified.

784
01:11:06,033 --> 01:11:07,033
There's only one thing to buy.

785
01:11:08,033 --> 01:11:09,033
There's lots of software to try out,

786
01:11:10,033 --> 01:11:11,033
but there's only one unit,

787
01:11:12,033 --> 01:11:13,033
the Bitcoin,

788
01:11:14,033 --> 01:11:16,033
and there's only one lower thing to settle to.

789
01:11:17,033 --> 01:11:19,033
There's one small block to settle to,

790
01:11:20,033 --> 01:11:22,033
and then Roger Ver is using the large block sidechain,

791
01:11:23,033 --> 01:11:24,033
and then no one has a problem with it,

792
01:11:25,033 --> 01:11:28,033
the same way they have this vitriolic hatred of Bitcoin cash.

793
01:11:29,033 --> 01:11:31,033
So the Drivechain world is like a totally different world,

794
01:11:32,033 --> 01:11:33,033
very much like the prediction markets.

795
01:11:34,033 --> 01:11:36,033
I just want to live in my head where everything is great.

796
01:11:37,033 --> 01:11:38,033
Everything is great in here.

797
01:11:39,033 --> 01:11:40,033
Well,

798
01:11:41,033 --> 01:11:42,033
why isn't Drivechain...

799
01:11:43,033 --> 01:11:45,033
Is Drivechain where you want it to be,

800
01:11:46,033 --> 01:11:48,033
or are there still some things that the core developers need to do

801
01:11:49,033 --> 01:11:51,033
to enable the full vision of it?

802
01:11:52,033 --> 01:11:53,033
It is a soft fork,

803
01:11:54,033 --> 01:11:55,033
so it's like SegWit where it has to be activated.

804
01:11:56,033 --> 01:11:57,033
We haven't quite finished it.

805
01:11:58,033 --> 01:11:59,033
I keep tinkering with it,

806
01:12:00,033 --> 01:12:01,033
and I'm kind of lazy about it,

807
01:12:02,033 --> 01:12:03,033
and I'm kind of a perfectionist about it.

808
01:12:04,033 --> 01:12:05,033
It's a free software,

809
01:12:06,033 --> 01:12:07,033
so anyone can download it and check it out.

810
01:12:08,033 --> 01:12:09,033
It's great.

811
01:12:10,033 --> 01:12:11,033
You go to drivechain.info,

812
01:12:12,033 --> 01:12:13,033
and it's right there.

813
01:12:14,033 --> 01:12:15,033
You can find the downloads page.

814
01:12:16,033 --> 01:12:17,033
The link is right at the top.

815
01:12:18,033 --> 01:12:19,033
Is it kind of like a Turing complete environment?

816
01:12:20,033 --> 01:12:21,033
Is it like that?

817
01:12:22,033 --> 01:12:23,033
Well,

818
01:12:24,033 --> 01:12:25,033
Turing completeness is a phrase that has been beaten to death

819
01:12:26,033 --> 01:12:27,033
by this community,

820
01:12:28,033 --> 01:12:29,033
and I don't know if we should continue using it or not,

821
01:12:30,033 --> 01:12:32,033
but you can send the coins to any piece of software.

822
01:12:33,033 --> 01:12:34,033
So just passively,

823
01:12:35,033 --> 01:12:36,033
it is universal.

824
01:12:37,033 --> 01:12:38,033
It can simulate any altcoin,

825
01:12:39,033 --> 01:12:41,033
and so since it can simulate Ethereum,

826
01:12:42,033 --> 01:12:45,033
it has access to Turing complete scripts

827
01:12:46,033 --> 01:12:48,033
or Turing complete anything.

828
01:12:50,033 --> 01:12:51,033
Okay,

829
01:12:53,033 --> 01:12:54,033
and yeah,

830
01:12:55,033 --> 01:12:56,033
so the SegWit comment about how it needs to be soft fork,

831
01:12:57,033 --> 01:12:58,033
so

832
01:13:00,033 --> 01:13:01,033
is that something?

833
01:13:02,033 --> 01:13:04,033
Is there hostility in doing that,

834
01:13:05,033 --> 01:13:06,033
or is it kind of obvious now?

835
01:13:07,033 --> 01:13:08,033
Are people like,

836
01:13:09,033 --> 01:13:10,033
okay, well,

837
01:13:11,033 --> 01:13:12,033
we would need to do this?

838
01:13:13,033 --> 01:13:14,033
I honestly think people are baffled by it.

839
01:13:15,033 --> 01:13:16,033
I think,

840
01:13:17,033 --> 01:13:18,033
well, there's a lot of PTSD from the last soft fork.

841
01:13:19,033 --> 01:13:20,033
You can see even with something like Taproot

842
01:13:21,033 --> 01:13:22,033
that's very,

843
01:13:23,033 --> 01:13:24,033
very popular among the elite developer communities,

844
01:13:25,033 --> 01:13:26,033
it's like the slowest thing possible.

845
01:13:27,033 --> 01:13:28,033
In fact,

846
01:13:29,033 --> 01:13:30,033
I remember it was especially around table five,

847
01:13:30,033 --> 01:13:31,033
I'm all confused,

848
01:13:32,033 --> 01:13:33,033
but I think it was at least,

849
01:13:34,033 --> 01:13:35,033
I think it was maybe at least 20,

850
01:13:36,033 --> 01:13:38,033
it may have been 2018.

851
01:13:39,033 --> 01:13:40,033
I think it was 2019 though.

852
01:13:41,033 --> 01:13:42,033
I'm going to say, well, they said by the summer.

853
01:13:43,033 --> 01:13:44,033
Someone there told me confidently

854
01:13:45,033 --> 01:13:46,033
so by the summer it will be

855
01:13:47,033 --> 01:13:48,033
activated by a bit nine,

856
01:13:50,033 --> 01:13:51,033
but that was, they were wrong about that.

857
01:13:52,033 --> 01:13:53,033
Obviously, we're blown way past summer 2019

858
01:13:54,033 --> 01:13:55,033
and still nothing in sight

859
01:13:56,033 --> 01:13:57,033
and still what people propose is

860
01:13:58,033 --> 01:13:59,033
some of these proposals have an activation

861
01:14:00,033 --> 01:14:01,033
timeline that is like three years long

862
01:14:02,033 --> 01:14:03,033
or something ridiculous.

863
01:14:04,033 --> 01:14:05,033
You've seen some of these, right?

864
01:14:06,033 --> 01:14:07,033
We try a bit nine,

865
01:14:08,033 --> 01:14:09,033
then it stalls

866
01:14:10,033 --> 01:14:11,033
and then it activates by a bit eight

867
01:14:12,033 --> 01:14:13,033
12 months after that.

868
01:14:14,033 --> 01:14:15,033
It's like 2023

869
01:14:16,033 --> 01:14:18,033
we'll have Taproot.

870
01:14:23,033 --> 01:14:24,033
I'm not sure.

871
01:14:25,033 --> 01:14:26,033
Maybe the protocol has become ossified

872
01:14:27,033 --> 01:14:29,033
faster than anyone thought.

873
01:14:30,033 --> 01:14:31,033
But really what I think it is

874
01:14:32,033 --> 01:14:33,033
is just people are baffled by it.

875
01:14:34,033 --> 01:14:35,033
When people do critique it,

876
01:14:36,033 --> 01:14:37,033
it's clear that they have no idea

877
01:14:38,033 --> 01:14:39,033
what it does or how it works,

878
01:14:40,033 --> 01:14:41,033
which is why I've worked very hard

879
01:14:42,033 --> 01:14:45,033
to help make the GUI better.

880
01:14:46,033 --> 01:14:48,033
If you use the testnet software,

881
01:14:49,033 --> 01:14:50,033
it should at least be possible.

882
01:14:51,033 --> 01:14:52,033
Ideally, it'd be, I don't know,

883
01:14:53,033 --> 01:14:54,033
I try to make it ideally in a certain way.

884
01:14:55,033 --> 01:14:56,033
I think it's easier for people

885
01:14:57,033 --> 01:14:57,946
to figure out exactly what's happening.

886
01:14:57,946 --> 01:15:03,946
But that's for them to judge and not me. But certainly when you go and you make a
deposit, you see the deposit to the sidechain.

887
01:15:03,946 --> 01:15:07,946
When you make the withdrawal, you see it shows up in a little queue, it shows up in
a little thing.

888
01:15:07,946 --> 01:15:18,946
Those little boxes with question marks, you can click on them and then this
explanation written by me will show up and explain what is going on.

889
01:15:19,946 --> 01:15:29,946
I try to work on that. I continue to try present tense because that's what I'm
working on is making this as a kind of demonstration.

890
01:15:29,946 --> 01:15:38,946
I think then people will be in a better position to look at it.

891
01:15:39,946 --> 01:15:43,946
I plan on making a little video, one of those little videos.

892
01:15:43,946 --> 01:15:48,946
All the videos I currently make were to address expert audience.

893
01:15:48,946 --> 01:15:58,946
Criticisms from Peter Todd, Greg Maxwell, whatever, people like that, Matt Corral or
whatever.

894
01:15:58,946 --> 01:16:01,946
That's the intended audience for stuff like that.

895
01:16:01,946 --> 01:16:05,946
It's extremely theoretical and weird.

896
01:16:06,946 --> 01:16:09,946
I have to make just the little bit.

897
01:16:09,946 --> 01:16:13,946
You remember that video that Peter Todd made back in the day, the Keep Bitcoin Free?

898
01:16:13,946 --> 01:16:15,946
It had the dorky little xylophone.

899
01:16:15,946 --> 01:16:17,946
But it was a great video.

900
01:16:17,946 --> 01:16:20,946
I don't think I saw it. You mentioned it.

901
01:16:20,946 --> 01:16:23,946
I did. I saw it. It was an immensely controversial video.

902
01:16:23,946 --> 01:16:25,946
It was a pretty good video. It's short.

903
01:16:25,946 --> 01:16:27,946
Mine won't be as good as that.

904
01:16:27,946 --> 01:16:33,946
But the point is I have to make a video for a more general audience.

905
01:16:33,946 --> 01:16:35,946
Although it's funny, I remember seeing the video.

906
01:16:35,946 --> 01:16:39,946
Because Peter Todd spoke, I think it was 2013.

907
01:16:39,946 --> 01:16:44,946
I think it was in the Javits Center in New York City or something.

908
01:16:44,946 --> 01:16:51,946
And every single person in the room, including me, was just baffled.

909
01:16:51,946 --> 01:16:52,946
Just totally baffled.

910
01:16:52,946 --> 01:16:55,946
Couldn't understand what he was even talking about with this block size debate.

911
01:16:55,946 --> 01:16:57,946
I had no idea what he was talking about.

912
01:16:57,946 --> 01:16:59,946
I don't think anyone had any idea.

913
01:16:59,946 --> 01:17:02,946
This was a long time ago.

914
01:17:04,946 --> 01:17:07,946
How can people help, though?

915
01:17:07,946 --> 01:17:09,946
Like normal people.

916
01:17:09,946 --> 01:17:12,946
Not normal people, but let's say some programmer dude is thinking.

917
01:17:12,946 --> 01:17:16,946
In my case, like I said, I'm not going to lie.

918
01:17:16,946 --> 01:17:18,946
I think a lot about building.

919
01:17:18,946 --> 01:17:22,946
Whether it's P2P platforms.

920
01:17:22,946 --> 01:17:26,946
Giving P2P better versions of local bitcoins.

921
01:17:26,946 --> 01:17:28,946
Things like that.

922
01:17:28,946 --> 01:17:32,946
I think it's like 0.5% of the world right now.

923
01:17:32,946 --> 01:17:34,946
Maybe has bitcoin.

924
01:17:34,946 --> 01:17:37,946
And banking can sometimes be a big challenge.

925
01:17:37,946 --> 01:17:41,946
And so we've seen how that can be obviously devastating.

926
01:17:41,946 --> 01:17:46,946
And so I think a lot about how do you make it so that.

927
01:17:46,946 --> 01:17:51,946
Even in the face of tyranny, we're able to commerce between one another.

928
01:17:51,946 --> 01:17:54,946
I think that is a very noble cause.

929
01:17:54,946 --> 01:17:58,946
But I also don't like the idea of building highly.

930
01:17:59,946 --> 01:18:04,946
Subversive technology on a server that sits in my house or something.

931
01:18:04,946 --> 01:18:09,946
I'd rather think about building stuff like that on something like bitcoin.

932
01:18:13,946 --> 01:18:17,946
But if the bitcoin community isn't welcoming of that.

933
01:18:17,946 --> 01:18:19,946
And I can respect that too.

934
01:18:19,946 --> 01:18:22,946
Because bitcoin wants to do one thing really well.

935
01:18:23,946 --> 01:18:27,946
It always struck me as sidechains and Drivechain.

936
01:18:27,946 --> 01:18:32,946
As a very technologically responsible way of fostering innovation.

937
01:18:32,946 --> 01:18:38,946
And simultaneously preserving the core benefits of bitcoin.

938
01:18:38,946 --> 01:18:41,946
When Drivechain really got going.

939
01:18:41,946 --> 01:18:42,946
It was like 2016.

940
01:18:42,946 --> 01:18:44,946
The block size debate was going crazy.

941
01:18:44,946 --> 01:18:46,946
The price of ethereum was going crazy.

942
01:18:46,946 --> 01:18:49,946
People in bitcoin were depressed.

943
01:18:49,946 --> 01:18:51,946
This is what they called the long sideways or whatever.

944
01:18:51,946 --> 01:18:54,946
From 2014 to 2017.

945
01:18:58,946 --> 01:19:01,946
In particular what was absurd about it was.

946
01:19:01,946 --> 01:19:04,946
Explicitly with all sidechains.

947
01:19:04,946 --> 01:19:06,946
All sidechain designs.

948
01:19:06,946 --> 01:19:09,946
Known to me.

949
01:19:09,946 --> 01:19:12,946
That are not like some secret mandatory hard fork.

950
01:19:12,946 --> 01:19:14,946
This is technical and weird.

951
01:19:15,946 --> 01:19:20,946
Basically with sidechains you don't want the full node to be responsible for the
sidechain.

952
01:19:20,946 --> 01:19:22,946
So you have to ignore some stuff over there.

953
01:19:22,946 --> 01:19:23,946
But you can't ignore everything.

954
01:19:23,946 --> 01:19:25,946
Because then it just becomes an altcoin.

955
01:19:25,946 --> 01:19:28,946
The middle ground was this SPV proof concept.

956
01:19:28,946 --> 01:19:33,946
And so the sidechain only has SPV security.

957
01:19:33,946 --> 01:19:36,946
But on it you can do whatever you want.

958
01:19:36,946 --> 01:19:38,946
And it just became absurd.

959
01:19:38,946 --> 01:19:42,946
Because the small block people hated SPV security.

960
01:19:42,946 --> 01:19:43,946
They hated it.

961
01:19:43,946 --> 01:19:46,946
And the large block people loved it.

962
01:19:46,946 --> 01:19:47,946
They were just in love with it.

963
01:19:47,946 --> 01:19:49,946
Every single time you brought up anything on twitter.

964
01:19:49,946 --> 01:19:51,946
They'd say blah blah blah.

965
01:19:51,946 --> 01:19:54,946
The longest chain will never contain that.

966
01:19:54,946 --> 01:19:55,946
Because someone will raise the alarm.

967
01:19:55,946 --> 01:19:57,946
It's super easy to identify.

968
01:19:57,946 --> 01:20:00,946
If a block is bad or if a transaction is bad.

969
01:20:00,946 --> 01:20:02,946
They loved it.

970
01:20:02,946 --> 01:20:04,946
They loved SPV.

971
01:20:04,946 --> 01:20:06,946
So it was the perfect thing.

972
01:20:06,946 --> 01:20:08,946
Because with sidechains.

973
01:20:08,946 --> 01:20:12,946
The large block people could have their own SPV sidechain.

974
01:20:12,946 --> 01:20:14,946
And it would never bother the mainchain at all.

975
01:20:14,946 --> 01:20:16,946
The mainchain could stay a small block.

976
01:20:16,946 --> 01:20:19,946
Do you know much about liquid?

977
01:20:19,946 --> 01:20:20,946
Yes, I do.

978
01:20:20,946 --> 01:20:21,946
Just thoughts.

979
01:20:21,946 --> 01:20:23,946
Isn't that a sidechain?

980
01:20:23,946 --> 01:20:26,946
So isn't it supposed to be or was it?

981
01:20:26,946 --> 01:20:28,946
As I said, it's aspirational.

982
01:20:28,946 --> 01:20:30,946
I have another post on Drivechain.

983
01:20:30,946 --> 01:20:31,946
I can send it to you.

984
01:20:31,946 --> 01:20:32,946
The Drivechain has its own blog.

985
01:20:32,946 --> 01:20:34,946
And it says, is liquid a real sidechain?

986
01:20:34,946 --> 01:20:35,946
Question mark.

987
01:20:35,946 --> 01:20:36,946
Greg Maxwell weighs in.

988
01:20:36,946 --> 01:20:39,946
And that one's short.

989
01:20:40,946 --> 01:20:47,946
But liquid is like a custodial multi-signature wallet that holds BTC.

990
01:20:47,946 --> 01:20:56,946
But it's also this other thing that has a federation of servers that has its own
kind of like counterparty like thing.

991
01:20:56,946 --> 01:21:02,946
Now, coins, bitcoins go in and they can come back out.

992
01:21:03,946 --> 01:21:11,946
But when they come out, it's only because X number of people in the multi-signature
agree that they can come out.

993
01:21:11,946 --> 01:21:14,946
There's a little bit more to it than that.

994
01:21:14,946 --> 01:21:21,946
But the reason that it's not what was originally envisioned is that it doesn't solve
the problem of altcoins.

995
01:21:21,946 --> 01:21:29,946
Can Roger Ver use liquid to create a large block version of Bitcoin Core?

996
01:21:29,946 --> 01:21:32,946
Because he would have done that and send coins there.

997
01:21:32,946 --> 01:21:36,946
And then Bitcoin.com would be shilling that thing.

998
01:21:36,946 --> 01:21:39,946
No, but liquid is custodial.

999
01:21:39,946 --> 01:21:40,946
It's the other thing too.

1000
01:21:40,946 --> 01:21:42,946
There's this group of people who own the coins.

1001
01:21:42,946 --> 01:21:46,946
And that's a list of names and addresses.

1002
01:21:46,946 --> 01:21:52,946
That's no different than the stuff that Bitcoiners used to laugh at.

1003
01:21:52,946 --> 01:21:57,946
Like when Dan Larimer and Vitalik, they would do stuff like that.

1004
01:21:57,946 --> 01:22:00,946
Well, they'd say, well, you know, like delegated proof of stake was like that.

1005
01:22:00,946 --> 01:22:10,946
That was like, well, a couple of people have servers, but it's not a big deal
because the servers will only be used if XYZ happens.

1006
01:22:10,946 --> 01:22:18,946
That's just a quick hack that they threw together because they thought they would
later do the real sidechain.

1007
01:22:18,946 --> 01:22:21,946
Or what Greg Maxwell says, the true two-way peg.

1008
01:22:22,946 --> 01:22:24,946
So there's a video.

1009
01:22:24,946 --> 01:22:30,946
He clearly refers to the true two-way peg in contrast to liquid.

1010
01:22:30,946 --> 01:22:35,946
Liquid is only this temporary sort of stopgap.

1011
01:22:35,946 --> 01:22:37,946
And you can see why.

1012
01:22:37,946 --> 01:22:42,946
How can I use liquid to make turn complete?

1013
01:22:42,946 --> 01:22:47,946
How can I use it to make Z address transactions like with ZK-SNARKs from Zcash?

1014
01:22:47,946 --> 01:22:50,946
How can I use it to do the prediction market thing that I want to do?

1015
01:22:50,946 --> 01:22:52,946
If I could, I would have just done that.

1016
01:22:52,946 --> 01:22:54,946
I wouldn't have needed to do it with Drivechain.

1017
01:22:54,946 --> 01:22:59,946
The only reason I bothered with Drivechain in the first place was because I was
working on this prediction markets idea.

1018
01:22:59,946 --> 01:23:02,946
If I could use liquid for that, I would have done that.

1019
01:23:02,946 --> 01:23:07,946
Because you know that you can't use liquid for these other things.

1020
01:23:07,946 --> 01:23:11,946
And when you put it into liquid, it is owned by those other people.

1021
01:23:11,946 --> 01:23:13,946
It's no different than if you had Mt. Gox.

1022
01:23:13,946 --> 01:23:19,946
And Mt. Gox had a server that was secured with multiple SSH keys or something.

1023
01:23:19,946 --> 01:23:21,946
Hey Paul, have you looked at Solana at all?

1024
01:23:21,946 --> 01:23:22,946
I'm just curious if you've heard about these guys.

1025
01:23:22,946 --> 01:23:24,946
Yeah, but I can't quite remember it.

1026
01:23:24,946 --> 01:23:25,946
You have to refresh my memory.

1027
01:23:25,946 --> 01:23:27,946
I have looked at it.

1028
01:23:27,946 --> 01:23:30,946
They're out of, what's that chip, Qualcomm.

1029
01:23:30,946 --> 01:23:33,946
It's like, I don't know, a whole bunch of guys out of Qualcomm.

1030
01:23:33,946 --> 01:23:37,946
It's like proof of history, proof of, I don't even know.

1031
01:23:37,946 --> 01:23:38,946
But I have a question.

1032
01:23:38,946 --> 01:23:44,946
So given that problem statement that I was mentioning earlier is building
decentralized applications,

1033
01:23:44,946 --> 01:23:48,946
let's say within the exchange space, whether it be fiat to crypto, whether it be
crypto to crypto.

1034
01:23:48,946 --> 01:23:58,946
If someone were to embark on that today, what would be their path or optimal path
towards building something?

1035
01:23:58,946 --> 01:23:59,946
You know what I mean?

1036
01:23:59,946 --> 01:24:04,946
Is it Ethereum then at the end of the day, just because of all these facts?

1037
01:24:05,946 --> 01:24:07,946
Yeah, I empathize with it.

1038
01:24:07,946 --> 01:24:17,946
I mean it's annoying because there has been, in the drive to safeguard Bitcoin Core
from this corruption,

1039
01:24:17,946 --> 01:24:20,946
there has been a lot of suppression of creativity, you know.

1040
01:24:20,946 --> 01:24:31,946
So if you want to just try something that's considered fun on Ethereum but it's
considered like a nasty attack in Bitcoin,

1041
01:24:32,946 --> 01:24:39,946
you're not supposed to try until you, you know, you're supposed to be an apprentice
for seven years at Chaincode

1042
01:24:39,946 --> 01:24:44,946
and you're supposed to whip yourself and be a monk for 40 years.

1043
01:24:44,946 --> 01:24:50,946
And then only after meditating on the code and reciting Satoshi's white paper
backwards at the full moon

1044
01:24:50,946 --> 01:24:55,946
can you like open a pull request that's not for like a unit test or something.

1045
01:24:55,946 --> 01:25:01,946
But so it's hard if you want to do something.

1046
01:25:01,946 --> 01:25:07,946
You know, one weird thing that I wanted to do in my head that I think is great that
people should do is,

1047
01:25:07,946 --> 01:25:10,946
I might even try to do it myself or something.

1048
01:25:10,946 --> 01:25:15,946
I think there should be something in the GUI, the Bitcoin GUI for HTLCs

1049
01:25:15,946 --> 01:25:22,946
because you could do the coin swap thing just by yourself in the software.

1050
01:25:22,946 --> 01:25:27,946
You just need to make a little thing that says I send Bitcoin to this, it's locked
to this hash

1051
01:25:27,946 --> 01:25:31,946
or it comes back to me after a certain amount of time.

1052
01:25:31,946 --> 01:25:35,946
And if you just built that, then all you need to do is have someone else,

1053
01:25:35,946 --> 01:25:39,946
Ethereum Litecoin, just kind of like copy it and put it into their GUI.

1054
01:25:39,946 --> 01:25:45,946
And then people could just meet like on Reddit or whatever, anywhere, IRC, whatever
it is,

1055
01:25:45,946 --> 01:25:47,946
wherever it is people meet.

1056
01:25:47,946 --> 01:25:56,946
And they could just say I'll trade you five Litecoin for whatever, a tenth of a
Bitcoin.

1057
01:25:56,946 --> 01:26:00,946
And then you could just do it in the software and you'd have a cool little GUI

1058
01:26:00,946 --> 01:26:02,946
and you'd lock it to the same hash.

1059
01:26:02,946 --> 01:26:06,946
So one person would go first and the other person would go second

1060
01:26:06,946 --> 01:26:08,946
and then you could just complete the trade.

1061
01:26:09,946 --> 01:26:16,946
You have basically shapeshift or sideshift or a lot of what maybe Coinbase does.

1062
01:26:16,946 --> 01:26:21,946
I have no idea the figures, but the point is you could do it on your own.

1063
01:26:21,946 --> 01:26:29,946
And then maybe that would be something you would go, Jeffrey Britt or whatever would
say to Congress.

1064
01:26:29,946 --> 01:26:31,946
They'd say, okay, they already do this.

1065
01:26:31,946 --> 01:26:36,946
There's nothing, so that's why you have to allow shapeshift or whatever.

1066
01:26:37,946 --> 01:26:38,946
You know what I mean?

1067
01:26:38,946 --> 01:26:42,946
And then from there it's actually pretty close because if you have something like
Tether,

1068
01:26:42,946 --> 01:26:44,946
and I'm very skeptical of Tether.

1069
01:26:44,946 --> 01:26:49,946
The whole time I've been wondering when is the Tether thing going to come to some
kind of bad end.

1070
01:26:49,946 --> 01:26:53,946
But so far to them, they've done okay.

1071
01:26:53,946 --> 01:26:56,946
But the point is if you just have something like Tether.

1072
01:26:56,946 --> 01:26:58,946
Tether is Counterparty, right?

1073
01:26:58,946 --> 01:27:01,946
I think they've literally moved it onto everything.

1074
01:27:02,946 --> 01:27:06,946
It was on Counterparty via MasterCoin or something.

1075
01:27:08,946 --> 01:27:13,946
I think it was MasterCoin Protocol and then it's on Ethereum.

1076
01:27:13,946 --> 01:27:18,946
It's even on Bitcoin Cash, so it's kind of moved around, which is probably smart.

1077
01:27:18,946 --> 01:27:20,946
But it's on all those things at once.

1078
01:27:20,946 --> 01:27:28,946
And the issue is if something like that exists, or even if it's like Amazon gift
cards or something,

1079
01:27:29,946 --> 01:27:33,946
just something that's cash-like, if you could just HTLC with that somehow.

1080
01:27:36,946 --> 01:27:40,946
If somehow you could get that to do HTLC, then you have the decentralized exchange.

1081
01:27:40,946 --> 01:27:45,946
And that's it. It's just another little tab in Bitcoin Core or in Electrum or
whatever,

1082
01:27:45,946 --> 01:27:47,946
your own wallet that you make.

1083
01:27:47,946 --> 01:27:49,946
You're talking about a crypto-to-crypto still?

1084
01:27:49,946 --> 01:27:52,946
Or are you talking about the local Bitcoins?

1085
01:27:52,946 --> 01:27:57,946
For Tether, it would still be crypto-to-crypto if Tether was considered a crypto.

1086
01:27:57,946 --> 01:27:59,946
Right, right. I know what you mean.

1087
01:27:59,946 --> 01:28:01,946
But then, you see, it's just specialization.

1088
01:28:01,946 --> 01:28:08,946
So that's all from the comfort of your own home, possibly behind VPN or Tor or
whatever.

1089
01:28:10,946 --> 01:28:15,946
That's great. And then all you need is that last link of converting US dollars to
Tether.

1090
01:28:18,946 --> 01:28:20,946
And back. But some specialists could do that.

1091
01:28:21,946 --> 01:28:28,946
You see, if you would need it, as long as it were possible, you wouldn't necessarily
need to do it.

1092
01:28:29,946 --> 01:28:32,946
You would just say, I'm going to keep this in Tether because it works for me.

1093
01:28:33,946 --> 01:28:36,946
And then only a specialist would have to actually swap them back and forth.

1094
01:28:36,946 --> 01:28:40,946
But I was saying with the Amazon gift cards, maybe you could make it even further.

1095
01:28:41,946 --> 01:28:46,946
We kind of just riffed on all these super, I'd say relevant, interesting, crazy
ideas.

1096
01:28:46,946 --> 01:28:49,946
But we didn't really, I mean, we're kind of at the end of our time.

1097
01:28:49,946 --> 01:28:52,946
We didn't really cover any of your story.

1098
01:28:53,946 --> 01:28:55,946
But we did cover your projects a little bit.

1099
01:28:55,946 --> 01:28:58,946
I was going to say, dude, if you're down, I really enjoyed this conversation.

1100
01:28:58,946 --> 01:29:01,946
I'm not going to lie. It did make my brain hurt a little bit.

1101
01:29:02,946 --> 01:29:03,946
Just because you made me think.

1102
01:29:03,946 --> 01:29:08,946
Like, you know, if you had like a little processing meter on my brain, it was like
it was at 90.

1103
01:29:08,946 --> 01:29:09,946
It was like red the whole time.

1104
01:29:10,946 --> 01:29:13,946
Normally, I'm a lot more like just like, OK, I got this because I got a formula.

1105
01:29:13,946 --> 01:29:15,946
But you took me out of that. It's all good.

1106
01:29:15,946 --> 01:29:16,946
I like that. I like that.

1107
01:29:16,946 --> 01:29:20,946
OK, so, dude, I was going to say, I'm down to do a follow up, you know,

1108
01:29:20,946 --> 01:29:23,946
and do more of a deep dive on your story, if you're even interested.

1109
01:29:23,946 --> 01:29:24,946
Yeah, sure.

1110
01:29:24,946 --> 01:29:27,946
I'm also down to do, you know, like a private meeting as well,

1111
01:29:27,946 --> 01:29:30,946
because I'd love to chat with you further about some of these ideas.

1112
01:29:30,946 --> 01:29:35,946
But where do people find out about you, you know, the great work you've been doing?

1113
01:29:35,946 --> 01:29:38,946
And like, is there like, is it Twitter? Is it like a, is there a website that you?

1114
01:29:38,946 --> 01:29:41,946
Yeah, I'm on Twitter. I'm Truthcoin on Twitter. T-R-U-T-H-C-O-I-N.

1115
01:29:41,946 --> 01:29:43,946
This is, my name is very difficult to spell.

1116
01:29:43,946 --> 01:29:47,946
But I think if you want to learn the sites, all the websites link to each other.

1117
01:29:47,946 --> 01:29:51,946
So I have Truthcoin.info is my blog, BitcoinHiveMind.com.

1118
01:29:51,946 --> 01:29:54,946
And Truthcoin is your ICO, right?

1119
01:29:54,946 --> 01:29:57,946
Yeah, it's just a blog.

1120
01:29:57,946 --> 01:29:59,946
It's a blog. I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

1121
01:29:59,946 --> 01:30:01,946
UnoCoin, we get that all the time, so it's OK.

1122
01:30:01,946 --> 01:30:03,946
And drivechain.info.

1123
01:30:03,946 --> 01:30:05,946
drivechain.info. OK, awesome.

1124
01:30:05,946 --> 01:30:07,946
They all link to each other, so you can find them.

1125
01:30:07,946 --> 01:30:11,946
Sweet. And then on Twitter, you're at Truthcoin, right?

1126
01:30:11,946 --> 01:30:12,946
That's right.

1127
01:30:12,946 --> 01:30:15,946
OK, OK, OK. Awesome, man.

1128
01:30:15,946 --> 01:30:20,946
Well, I know, like I said, yeah, if you want, we can do another follow-up some other
time.

1129
01:30:20,946 --> 01:30:24,946
With that said, any last words, or should we bring this one to an end?

1130
01:30:24,946 --> 01:30:26,946
No, no last words for me.

1131
01:30:26,946 --> 01:30:27,946
No last words?

1132
01:30:27,946 --> 01:30:28,946
Only first words.

1133
01:30:28,946 --> 01:30:30,946
Wise words of wisdom? No?

1134
01:30:30,946 --> 01:30:33,946
All right, Paul, I think you've already hit us up with enough of those.

1135
01:30:33,946 --> 01:30:34,946
I'm going to kill this.