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Here we are for another weekly

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to the Q&A session, and then we're going to move on to the Q&A session, and then we're

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going to move on to the Q&A session, and then we're going to move on to the Q&A session,

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the Q&A session, and then we're going to move on to the Q&A session, and then we're going

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to move on to the Q&A session, and then we're going to move on to the Q&A session, and then

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session, and then we're going to move on to the Q&A session, and then we're going to move

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going to move on to the Q&A session, and then we're going to move on to the Q&A session,

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the Q&A session, and then we're going to move on to the Q&A session, and then we're going

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session, and then we're going to move on to the Q&A session, and then we're going to move

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going to move on to the Q&A session, and then we're going to move on to the Q&A session,

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and then we're going to move on to the Q&A session, and then we're going to move on to

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the Q&A session, and then we're going to move on to the Q&A session, and then we're going

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to move on to the Q&A session, and then we're going to move on to the Q&A session, and then

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we're going to move on to the Q&A session, and then we're going to move on to the Q&A

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session, and then we're going to move on to the Q&A session, and then we're going to move

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on to the Q&A session, and then we're going to move on to the Q&A session, and then we're

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going to move on to the Q&A session, and then we're going to move on to the Q&A session,

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a reason to believe that Bitcoin can become more adopted in the

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future by LayerTwo or in various things.

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I've been trying to understand what Drivechain is and I have to be honest, I don't

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really get it and I was just wondering if you could maybe give a simple explanation of

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it.

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I think what we're trying to do is make test software so

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that you can just see it with your own eyes.

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basically, what would happen, you can actually download this now if you're going to

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drivechain.info slash releases, but you probably shouldn't download

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random software from the internet and run it on your computer, but what you would see

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if you did is you open up Bitcoin and you have like a window where there would be normally

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your Bitcoin node or your Bitcoin wallet, and then you could open a different piece

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of software, completely different piece of software, and send your coins over there,

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and it's a different network, so that network would be like something like Zcash where you

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would have a reusable Z address, and in Zcash the amount, the sender, the receiver, and

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the amount are all private, and that's because they made different software with different

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trade-offs, and so then over there you could send and receive money, and then that's like

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an L2 network that's its own L1 blockchain.

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Isn't that like a bridge though?

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It is like a bridge, yes.

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Doesn't it have the security vulnerabilities of a bridge?

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It has some security, it has some loss of security, and that's what the trade-off is,

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you want the feature, and it degrades security, but the only way the bridge fails is if more

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than 75% of the hash rate intentionally does a mis-withdrawal over three to six months

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in view of everyone, so it's the idea that they can only really break the bridge if they

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are intentionally going to destroy the feature, and so the miners have like a carrot at the

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end of keeping the bridge operating, if they keep the bridge operating then they get all

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the transaction fees on all of the different networks, which is probably going to be like

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500 to 1,000 times more revenue than they're going to get on the L1 Bitcoin chain, so it's

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kind of a big carrot.

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Okay, that sounds interesting, so you've been developing this for a number of years now

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and it's in production online or it's still theoretical or somewhere in between?

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I'd say somewhere in between, like we have test software that you can download and run

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now, so it does exist.

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We sort of have a pull request to Bitcoin Core, although that takes time, and I would

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say it's very, very close to production.

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We have actual software that people can run.

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Most of the work is actually done on the sidechain itself, so the BIP300 part on Bitcoin

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Core is very small and it's just this counter that counts up to 13,000 really.

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It's kind of like a cross-chain confirmation.

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So why are some Bitcoiners so adamantly against it?

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I don't really understand the opposition to it.

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Well, if you figure it out, you can tell me, but I think if I had to explain it, I would

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say that this idea is actually very mainstream, so it's sort of like I've been working on

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it on and off for a number of years, but I do other things, like I have my blog and

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I've had other things going on, but the idea is actually, this is what Blockstream raised

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money to create back in 2014, 2015, so the idea is very old and it used to be popular,

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but what I think happened was, I can give you a long story if you like, but the short

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version is that there's like a sour grapes phenomenon, I think, going on where we haven't

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for a while, like when Ethereum first came out, it was like very, very, very low quality

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project, like it was full of like pre-mine, it had shady accounting, it was completely

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unfinished in 2015, and so it didn't even exist, it had no use cases, it had nothing

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going on, so we called it like a piece of junk, just like basically everything, and

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so everyone hated all these projects, all of them were bad, like 2013, 2014, 2015, and

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then we had the scaling war in 2016, and then we had Bitcoin Cash fork off in 2017, and

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so Bitcoin was kind of the king for a while, and now what I think has happened from 2017

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to 2023 has been that the other projects have evolved into like a little niche, where

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they actually are decent at one thing or the other, and as a result, the old attitude of

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just dismissing these projects, you had to like double down more and more and more, and

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I think that there was a lot of rational reasons for hating them in the past, but now they

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have slowly transformed into just irrational, right, right, denials, inheriting the old

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talking points, and so now people want to say like there is, we would, there is no reason

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to want zk-snark level privacy, or EVM, there's just no, see before everyone cheered, Roadstock

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raised money in 2015, we're like we'll just copy Ethereum onto Bitcoin, and everyone,

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this was very popular, but now people want to keep that Ethereum away from a consenting

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Bitcoin user who might want to use it, you know, and the idea that we should just have

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21 million coins spread among all these different pieces of software, but there's a slightly

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more story involved, just like there's a long story involving lots of weird culture, that,

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but I think it's irrational, because it's ignorable on L1, all BIP300 is doing is using

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an unused op-nop, five to count to 13,000, which has already been done, you know, it's

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the previous op-nop, it's the check lock time verifier's op-nop too, and so it's the same

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thing, it's been done forever, and it's totally optional, and it's totally reversible also,

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so I don't, so from a non-technical standpoint, because I am not, I am not technical, I don't,

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I'm not trying to be, or don't, I feel if I can't understand it, then the masses can't

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understand it, so from a mass adoption standpoint, what do you see Drivechain, if it's to be

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successful, and what do you see as its competitors?

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Well, I think, non-technically, I think first people have to decide, like, this idea used

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to be good, but sometimes people today will say, well, why don't we just have altcoins,

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because it's like a purer form of competition, they're all completely different coins, it

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would be like a Friedrich Hayek thing, so ironically, if you're against the sidechain

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vision, you kind of have to be pro-altcoin, because you say, well, there's a market, and

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different, everything competes, and then this is the best of all possible worlds, so I kind

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of don't really believe that, because I always think of something like USB-A, or like the

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QWERTY keyboard, or whatever, I just think the future is just one coin, that enables

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you to do everything, but it would be 21 million coin, because no one really wants, if you

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introduce an altcoin, you're really kind of like introducing inflation, you know, you're

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splitting the pie.

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Well, when you have a ton of fragmentation, and user experience diminishes, because of

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that, I'm concerned about the fragmentation of everything being on different competing

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altcoins, or different layer twos on top of Ethereum, I'm still grappling to see a vision

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that, every vision I come across has flaws in it, I haven't seen anything that, it just

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seems early, from that respect.

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Well, I definitely think it's a very complicated industry, that's for sure, I think the way

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forward for drivechain would be that people understand, they start to learn a little bit

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more about it, I think the really smart technical minds in Bitcoin are, they have a lot of hands-on

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experience with lightning, so in one sense, they don't want to move away from that, but

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in another sense, they have so much experience with it, that they're starting to become interested

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in looking for something else, which…

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So much bad experience.

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Yeah, that's what I think.

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Yeah, I'm seeing too much bad experience on it, I can't, it seems to be tainted with

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problems.

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Yeah, it was very interesting, it was kind of a, it was a very revolutionary idea in

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2015, and it is a very interesting idea, I think one attribute of it that has attracted

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people's attention is how it is a very technical project, so like, very, very smart technical

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people can like, spend a lot of time unpacking it and tweaking it around, and so I think

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they like the, they like the idea that they can get like, you know, there's a lot of

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engineering work to be done.

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Yeah, my perspective on that is that, that just leads to centralization, because 99%

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of the masses aren't interested in doing that, therefore it has to go through centralized

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parties, therefore, what's the point?

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I mean, there's a point, it's a hybrid solution, but, and I'm not saying that wouldn't

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work, but I just don't see, I don't want to parrot what I've learned about Lightning,

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but I pretty much dismissed it at this stage, and I'm looking for alternate scenarios that

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would help Bitcoin reach its vision through a sidechain or a layer two, or through Bitcoin

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itself, and I still see it as, so I, is Drivechain, is Lightning what you, do you consider

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Lightning to be your competitor?

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Well, that's an interesting question, I mean, I think it depends on the context, but I wrote

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an essay called Thunder, you know, on truthcon.info, so if you, you can search for that, and I

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do a big comparison, and I do think, I think that, like, in people's minds, they would

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be seen as a competitor, sometimes, it's not necessarily a competitor at all, because in

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fact, you could have, you could, people could and would create a Drivechain that has some

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features that would make Lightning better, for example, this 118, and you print out APO,

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and you could do, the other thing is you could have Lightning channels open on sidechain,

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and the major advantage of Lightning is the payment speed, and so, but I think inevitably

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people would compare them, you know what I mean, it's kind of like, is, does Visa compete

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with Cash, it's kind of like, well, at the end of the day, kind of, you know, right,

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because if Visa works everywhere all the time perfectly, then you kind of don't really

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want to carry Cash around, but if, but if the place, you know, there's a big advantage

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to having Cash, or, then you, so, so I kind of think they, they all will compete, which

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is, this is part of the reason why it's not universally loved, I think, is because there

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has been a huge amount of time, technical people, they spend a lot of time, like, learning

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like a code base or something, then they really want that one to, that to pay off

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in their career, and we have lots of VCs funding Lightning, and of course, we went through

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a period of time in Bitcoin's history when Lightning was, like, the savior, and it could

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do no wrong, and especially after the 2017 Bitcoin Cash BTC split, then that created

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this attitude where the Bitcoin Cash people were always criticizing Lightning, so that

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created an atmosphere in BTC where if you criticized Lightning, you resembled a Bitcoin

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Cash trader and a Bitcoin Cash supporter, so, so people avoided doing that, and then,

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you know, that kind of, like, one thing led to another, and then it just became this sacred

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cow.

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Yeah, not, not, not to a guy like me who came in two, three years ago and started trying

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to figure this stuff out, it doesn't look like a sacred cow, but that's not why I called.

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I, I'm just trying to understand drivechain to see, you know, what, what can I look forward

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to that might bring Bitcoin to a more mainstream and a more, more mass adoption, and, and a

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winner-take-all, I mean, to become the winner-take-all platform, I, I, it's just, it's hard to envision

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right now, and so I just kind of keep tabs on it, and I, that's why I called, so.

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I worked on it because that's the point of it is, it's not really just scaling, it's

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like anyone, we have all these people who constantly disagree over what the protocol

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should or shouldn't contain, and the PIV300 is itself an example of that, where if we

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had it, though, none of this would really be, it would be greatly, like, 99% reduced

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because someone would always have the option of unilaterally releasing the new, their new

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project as a drivechain instead of trying to get…

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So would this, would all those, would all those releases on top of drivechain be composable,

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a good user experience, like, without bridging between them, like the concept of ZK proofs

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on Ethereum?

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Well, I think you would still, you, if you could write a piece of software that used,

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like, two or three sidechains at once, and then if the user had them all installed, then

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that piece, that software application would…

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Ah, yeah.

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It would…

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If the user had, if the, you, you'll ask me if the user had them all installed.

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I, it…

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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But the, the thing to keep in mind is, if, if the user is not going to be running a full

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node, like, this is a separate issue.

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So I'm saying, like, a service could exist that uses all of the features.

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But my vision is, personally, is that they would be kind of topical.

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So there would be, like, the privacy sidechain, and there would be, like, the payment sidechain.

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But I don't know if that, you know, the cool thing about this is it's very open,

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and, you know, no, I can't stop anyone from releasing a sidechain a certain way.

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So if they think that it's better to have them all in one big network for the convenience

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of the user…

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So are they…

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…then I can't stop them, and if they think the reverse, then I can't stop them either.

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Are they as functional and Turing-complete as a smart contract on Ethereum?

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Yeah.

203
00:17:56,336 --> 00:18:01,336
In fact, we have cloned the latest version of an Ethereum full node as a sidechain already.

204
00:18:01,336 --> 00:18:02,336
Wow.

205
00:18:03,336 --> 00:18:05,336
And you can see there's a video.

206
00:18:05,336 --> 00:18:09,336
I'm now online, and we turn it on, and we send Bitcoin to it, and it shows up over there.

207
00:18:09,336 --> 00:18:13,336
And we even can connect this node to the whole Ethereum infrastructure.

208
00:18:13,336 --> 00:18:17,336
They have this site, Remix, Remix.Ethereum.org.

209
00:18:17,336 --> 00:18:23,336
And you just point the – you point that front end to the, you know, your own IP address,

210
00:18:23,336 --> 00:18:27,336
and it just – it doesn't even realize that it's a clone of it.

211
00:18:27,336 --> 00:18:29,336
It doesn't even realize it's a sidechain of Bitcoin.

212
00:18:29,336 --> 00:18:30,336
It just thinks it's talking to Ethereum.

213
00:18:30,336 --> 00:18:33,336
So all this stuff would work, you know, like on day one.

214
00:18:33,336 --> 00:18:37,336
And it would all settle on the Bitcoin layer one as a settlement layer.

215
00:18:37,336 --> 00:18:38,336
Yeah, right.

216
00:18:38,336 --> 00:18:39,336
That's correct.

217
00:18:39,336 --> 00:18:41,336
Isn't that the holy grail of Bitcoin's future vision?

218
00:18:41,336 --> 00:18:42,336
I know.

219
00:18:42,336 --> 00:18:43,336
Yeah, that's what I thought.

220
00:18:43,336 --> 00:18:44,336
That's what I thought.

221
00:18:44,336 --> 00:18:46,336
Well, you know, we have a lot of people.

222
00:18:46,336 --> 00:18:52,336
If you go to layer2labs.com slash friends, you see that most of the, like, OG elite,

223
00:18:52,336 --> 00:18:53,336
many are there.

224
00:18:54,336 --> 00:19:00,336
And so – but I think it's – what has happened is, like, people, you know, like

225
00:19:00,336 --> 00:19:05,336
a lot of people will say, like, there is nothing useful on any other network.

226
00:19:05,336 --> 00:19:10,336
So they've been trained to believe that nothing good ever happened on Ethereum.

227
00:19:10,336 --> 00:19:12,336
That's religious dogma nonsense.

228
00:19:12,336 --> 00:19:14,336
Yes, it is.

229
00:19:14,336 --> 00:19:20,336
That's just people in denial, you know, protecting their bags.

230
00:19:20,336 --> 00:19:22,336
That's just annoying.

231
00:19:22,336 --> 00:19:26,336
That's the most annoying thing about the Bitcoin community as far as I'm concerned.

232
00:19:26,336 --> 00:19:27,336
And I'm a Bitcoiner.

233
00:19:27,336 --> 00:19:31,336
I am a Bitcoiner and an Ethereum holder.

234
00:19:31,336 --> 00:19:37,336
And they both have pros and cons, but it's really tiresome to hear all this bashing that

235
00:19:37,336 --> 00:19:39,336
comes from an emotional standpoint.

236
00:19:39,336 --> 00:19:40,336
It's just old.

237
00:19:40,336 --> 00:19:42,336
It's just nonproductive.

238
00:19:42,336 --> 00:19:44,336
Yeah, I completely agree.

239
00:19:44,336 --> 00:19:48,336
I mean, it's really weird because you think if they really hated Ethereum, they would,

240
00:19:48,336 --> 00:19:50,336
like, do something about it, like what I did.

241
00:19:51,336 --> 00:19:52,336
Right.

242
00:19:53,336 --> 00:19:55,336
Yeah, that's why I'm calling you.

243
00:19:55,336 --> 00:20:00,336
It's a lot harder to do that than, it's a lot easier just to retweet some nonsense.

244
00:20:00,336 --> 00:20:04,336
I mean, it seems like you get it more than most people, so.

245
00:20:04,336 --> 00:20:09,336
Well, yeah, because I read all these talking points and then I've engaged with a lot of

246
00:20:09,336 --> 00:20:11,336
these people and found that there was.

247
00:20:11,351 --> 00:20:17,351
They didn't really have a rationale behind it, and I've gone through a lot of conversations like that to try to.

248
00:20:17,351 --> 00:20:23,351
So anyway, that's. I appreciate your feedback. I think we just got disconnected, did we?

249
00:20:23,351 --> 00:20:27,351
Yeah, we did. No, I'm still here. Oh, you're still there. OK.

250
00:20:27,351 --> 00:20:34,351
Well, anyway, I don't want to take up any more of your time. I'm going to continue to follow you and see how this goes.

251
00:20:34,351 --> 00:20:38,351
OK, cool. Great. Well, thanks for your attention. OK.

252
00:20:41,351 --> 00:20:51,351
OK, cool. I thought I saw a stoic unicorn come up, but then I guess he is back down.

253
00:21:12,351 --> 00:21:21,351
I'm going to repeat what I said about Shinobi's article, if no one wants to come up.

254
00:21:21,351 --> 00:21:23,351
Hello, can you hear me?

255
00:21:23,351 --> 00:21:25,351
Yes, hello.

256
00:21:25,351 --> 00:21:30,351
Sorry, I was having technical difficulties.

257
00:21:30,351 --> 00:21:40,351
I guess I'm just I'd be interested in hearing more about like the economic.

258
00:21:40,351 --> 00:21:48,351
The economics between the sidechain and the main chain and like how that works out.

259
00:21:48,351 --> 00:21:56,351
I know you said that like the sidechain miners pay the main chain miners.

260
00:21:56,351 --> 00:22:02,351
So like they would essentially be fronting main chain Bitcoin.

261
00:22:02,351 --> 00:22:06,351
Is that correct? And then they would receive the sidechain Bitcoin.

262
00:22:06,351 --> 00:22:11,351
Or can you just maybe expound on that a little bit more?

263
00:22:11,351 --> 00:22:20,351
I'm really interested in hearing like or being able to clearly picture how that all works.

264
00:22:20,351 --> 00:22:25,351
I think you're referring to a blind merge mining, which is BIP301.

265
00:22:25,351 --> 00:22:35,351
And in that scenario that was designed to address the problem of what if a sidechain full node is really, really, really expensive to run?

266
00:22:35,351 --> 00:22:37,351
And the miner does not want to run it.

267
00:22:37,351 --> 00:22:41,351
And so the idea behind that is the sidechain is very, very cheap.

268
00:22:41,351 --> 00:22:43,351
Then it's kind of a moot point. It doesn't really matter.

269
00:22:43,351 --> 00:22:49,351
So whether they run it or not, no one really cares, including them, because it's cheap.

270
00:22:49,351 --> 00:22:53,351
And this is the classical version of merge mining has been invented by Satoshi.

271
00:22:53,351 --> 00:22:56,351
And we use it every day, all the time.

272
00:22:56,351 --> 00:23:01,351
It has been in continuous use since like 2010 or 2011.

273
00:23:01,351 --> 00:23:05,351
I think it was invented in 2010. It's been in continuous use since 2011.

274
00:23:05,351 --> 00:23:14,351
So classical merge mining is very old and not controversial as far as I'm aware.

275
00:23:14,351 --> 00:23:19,351
But I invented this other kind, which I think is what you're referring to.

276
00:23:19,351 --> 00:23:24,351
That is designed for a scenario where the sidechain node is really, really expensive to run.

277
00:23:25,351 --> 00:23:33,351
And so the thought behind that is what if there are all these users out there who are running the sidechain node?

278
00:23:33,351 --> 00:23:38,351
All of those users are also running a main chain node by definition.

279
00:23:38,351 --> 00:23:44,351
So they have coins on both networks, and they're already running a node.

280
00:23:44,351 --> 00:23:48,351
So the idea is can a miner just team up with that person because that's a perfect person.

281
00:23:49,351 --> 00:23:54,351
And so – sorry, I got a phone call.

282
00:23:54,351 --> 00:23:55,351
Okay.

283
00:23:55,351 --> 00:24:09,351
So the idea is can a miner team up with that person in a trustless way that is totally like private and doesn't involve anyone stabbing each other in the back?

284
00:24:09,351 --> 00:24:20,351
So the idea there is the layer two sidechain node person, they build the next block paying the fees to themselves.

285
00:24:20,351 --> 00:24:24,351
They pay the L2 coins. This is what you were talking about, I think.

286
00:24:24,351 --> 00:24:29,351
And what they do is on L1, they pay the L1 miners.

287
00:24:29,351 --> 00:24:34,351
They make a special transaction, this BIP301 transaction on L1 main chain.

288
00:24:34,351 --> 00:24:43,351
And they say, make this block, this hash or something, make this the next L2 block.

289
00:24:43,351 --> 00:24:46,351
I'll pay you the L1 coins today.

290
00:24:46,351 --> 00:24:53,351
You get L01 coins, and I'll pay myself the L2 coins on L2.

291
00:24:54,351 --> 00:25:04,351
And so the idea is whatever this rate, exchange rate works out to be, it should just be like – because you have a competitive environment where all the L2 sidechain nodes are just bid against each other.

292
00:25:04,351 --> 00:25:07,351
And only one of these bids can be included.

293
00:25:08,351 --> 00:25:25,351
But I want to stress that the BIP301 is optional, and it is designed mainly to apply in a situation where people do not want to run the sidechain node because they're expensive for some reason.

294
00:25:25,351 --> 00:25:31,351
Okay. So I think that helps clarify or solidify some things in my head.

295
00:25:32,351 --> 00:25:47,351
So then I guess for when they're withdrawing coins from L2 to L1, that whole voting process, how does that work?

296
00:25:47,351 --> 00:25:55,351
Is there competition between different people to get their coins withdrawn?

297
00:25:56,351 --> 00:26:05,351
But I'll explain it. The way it works is it's kind of like a boarding an airplane or a train.

298
00:26:05,351 --> 00:26:11,351
Like one little capsule is going from L2 to L1.

299
00:26:11,351 --> 00:26:16,351
It's being pulled down from L2 down to L1.

300
00:26:16,351 --> 00:26:20,351
It's being pulled down once per three months.

301
00:26:20,351 --> 00:26:24,351
Best case scenario, or even slower.

302
00:26:24,351 --> 00:26:32,351
But on L2, there is competition because it's kind of like there's an airport or a train station or whatever you want to call it.

303
00:26:32,351 --> 00:26:33,351
Let's call it a train station.

304
00:26:33,351 --> 00:26:39,351
And on L2, you're living in the L2 planet or continent or whatever.

305
00:26:39,351 --> 00:26:43,351
And over there, you say, I want to withdraw.

306
00:26:43,351 --> 00:26:50,351
And there you set what you – you pay the L2 transaction fee just like every message on L2 pays that fee.

307
00:26:50,351 --> 00:26:57,351
But then you pay also – you say, what will my L1 main chain fee be for this withdrawal?

308
00:26:57,351 --> 00:27:08,351
Because unfortunately, since it is a cross-chain transaction, it must be – it must be – pay two transaction fees.

309
00:27:08,351 --> 00:27:19,351
So what we do is we have the sidechain sort people in line in the – when they're going to get on the ferry or the train or the airplane or the spaceship or whatever metaphor you want to use.

310
00:27:19,351 --> 00:27:25,351
When they're in line at the train station, it's – the sidechain sorts them based on the L1 fee.

311
00:27:25,351 --> 00:27:27,351
And each output is the same.

312
00:27:27,351 --> 00:27:30,351
It's like it's the same 43 bytes or whatever.

313
00:27:30,351 --> 00:27:38,351
So they all take up the same space on L1, and so it just sorts them on their fee, sorts them on their fee rate, same difference.

314
00:27:38,351 --> 00:27:42,351
So in the airport or in the train station, they're constantly being sorted.

315
00:27:42,351 --> 00:27:53,351
And then the new capsule opens up, and then we load as many people on as will fit, and then we launch it back to – it's pulled back to L1 slowly.

316
00:27:53,351 --> 00:28:01,351
So there is competition, but then everyone is moving in a big group, and this group is this withdrawal capsule.

317
00:28:02,351 --> 00:28:15,351
And this is the thing that is once every three months, and it is defined by the withdrawal hash, which is – it's basically the TXID of that – of the transaction that would pay all those people out.

318
00:28:15,351 --> 00:28:23,351
So when that's finally pulled down to L1, then you include in L1 the transaction that withdraws all that.

319
00:28:23,351 --> 00:28:27,351
Does that make any sense?

320
00:28:28,351 --> 00:28:39,351
Yeah, so then – so there's basically one capsule every three months, and that capsule can contain multiple people like the top bidders of –

321
00:28:39,351 --> 00:28:43,351
Yeah, I think it's like 20,000 or 25,000, something like that.

322
00:28:44,351 --> 00:28:46,351
So it's a lot of people.

323
00:28:46,351 --> 00:29:00,351
If you don't make the capsule, all you have to do – it's quite – it tolerates a lot of stress because if the line is crowded and you really want to get out, you can either bump your L1 fee.

324
00:29:00,351 --> 00:29:07,351
You say, I'll pay a higher-than-normal L1 fee, so I move up in line because you see it coming.

325
00:29:07,351 --> 00:29:11,351
It's once every three months, so you know where you are in line. You know when the next one is going to come.

326
00:29:11,351 --> 00:29:13,351
You know if you're getting on or not.

327
00:29:13,351 --> 00:29:22,351
So if you're not getting on, you either bid up the L1 fee, but another thing you can do is you can just cut a deal with someone who's further ahead of you in line.

328
00:29:22,351 --> 00:29:27,351
So maybe they're withdrawing six coins and you're withdrawing two coins.

329
00:29:27,351 --> 00:29:34,351
You can go to them and you can say, listen, I'll give you my two L2 coins right now.

330
00:29:34,351 --> 00:29:36,351
You can change your six to an eight.

331
00:29:36,351 --> 00:29:49,351
You do that, and if you pay me on L1, like 1.99 – if you pay me on L1 1.99 coins, then I will give you my two L2 coins, and then they can just withdraw eight.

332
00:29:49,351 --> 00:29:57,351
So this is – my view is that the only people who will actually take the capsule will be like professionally patient withdrawer people.

333
00:29:57,351 --> 00:30:01,351
Most regular users probably won't use it.

334
00:30:01,351 --> 00:30:15,351
So with the whole voting process, like if the capsule is constantly changing, what's like the static item that you're voting on or like the –

335
00:30:15,351 --> 00:30:19,351
Yes, let me explain that, which is that because the capsule is not changing.

336
00:30:19,351 --> 00:30:22,351
What's changing is the line leading up to the next capsule.

337
00:30:22,351 --> 00:30:28,351
It's like if you're getting on an amusement park ride or something, that part is changing on L2.

338
00:30:28,351 --> 00:30:36,351
Then the next empty capsule pulls up, and it just loads everyone on, and then it's off.

339
00:30:36,351 --> 00:30:43,351
So the capsule itself doesn't change once it's launched, and it's always the same for everyone.

340
00:30:43,351 --> 00:30:49,351
The sidechain procedurally and algorithmically calculates exactly what it should be.

341
00:30:49,351 --> 00:30:54,351
So it – the capsule itself doesn't change.

342
00:30:54,351 --> 00:31:03,351
So the sidechain will like quote-unquote launch the capsule, and then that capsule is voted on for three months.

343
00:31:03,351 --> 00:31:11,351
Right, and the vote is also a kind of like – it's sort of true that you can just vote.

344
00:31:11,351 --> 00:31:18,351
They vote arbitrarily as miners, but it's not really like – there's only one option in the real world.

345
00:31:18,351 --> 00:31:22,351
There's just the one hash, and you upvote that one hash.

346
00:31:22,351 --> 00:31:32,351
But someone could attempt – a fraudulent person could attempt to – they'll claim some other capsule is real,

347
00:31:32,351 --> 00:31:36,351
and they'll invent a whole fake story about what it is.

348
00:31:36,351 --> 00:31:41,351
But it's not like a vote where you have two people, like you have two candidates or whatever.

349
00:31:41,351 --> 00:31:48,351
Like there is no – there's one that's going to happen automatically and that everyone will approve of if everything works fine.

350
00:31:49,351 --> 00:31:55,351
There's only ever a second choice if at least one person is doing something that is objectively dishonest.

351
00:31:55,351 --> 00:31:57,351
So there should always be only one.

352
00:31:57,351 --> 00:32:08,351
Of course, since L1 – we want to build L1 so that it ignores L2, for that only reason, that is the sole and absolute reason,

353
00:32:08,351 --> 00:32:14,351
for that reason it can tolerate – L1 can tolerate like whatever, like 12,000 different withdrawal attempts per sidechain,

354
00:32:14,351 --> 00:32:21,351
like per three months or something, because it has to be robust to people trying to attack it.

355
00:32:21,351 --> 00:32:26,351
So when you attack the sidechain, you say there's a different capsule that pays all the money to you,

356
00:32:26,351 --> 00:32:28,351
and you try to get everyone to upvote that.

357
00:32:28,351 --> 00:32:34,351
But I just wanted to try to make it clear that it's not a vote in the sense of democracy,

358
00:32:34,351 --> 00:32:42,351
where there's like two competing visions for like a country or something.

359
00:32:43,351 --> 00:32:48,351
There's always one that is objectively correct, and then if there's more than one, like two or three,

360
00:32:48,351 --> 00:32:52,351
then something bad is happening, and something bad is happening.

361
00:32:52,351 --> 00:33:00,351
And that's why it's better to actually maybe sometimes delay and figure it out later, hence the 76 threshold.

362
00:33:00,351 --> 00:33:02,351
But yeah, that's how it works.

363
00:33:02,351 --> 00:33:08,351
Yeah, so it's less of a vote and more of like a consistent attestation over time.

364
00:33:08,351 --> 00:33:10,351
That's correct. Exactly.

365
00:33:10,351 --> 00:33:15,351
I think of it kind of like how when you build on the next Bitcoin block, that's a confirmation.

366
00:33:15,351 --> 00:33:21,351
It's a vote kind of the same way that the miner votes on which block to extend.

367
00:33:21,351 --> 00:33:23,351
So it's not like really a vote.

368
00:33:23,351 --> 00:33:29,351
There is one objectively correct answer that the software would tell you if you ran it.

369
00:33:29,351 --> 00:33:34,351
But we have to be robust to the fact that people will try to interfere with it.

370
00:33:35,351 --> 00:33:42,351
Okay, so I think in my mind where I was kind of getting confused was like the fees.

371
00:33:42,351 --> 00:33:51,351
So BIP300 has one method of paying fees to miners, and then BIP301 has a different method of paying fees to miners.

372
00:33:51,351 --> 00:33:52,351
Is that correct?

373
00:33:52,351 --> 00:33:54,351
Yes, they're very, very different.

374
00:33:54,351 --> 00:33:58,351
BIP300 is only the deposits and withdrawals.

375
00:33:59,351 --> 00:34:06,351
So it has nothing to do with actually the fees paid on L2, the withdrawal being the only exception.

376
00:34:06,351 --> 00:34:10,351
Because the withdrawal has to actually end up on L1 also.

377
00:34:10,351 --> 00:34:13,351
So the withdrawal has to pay a fee because it will end up on L1.

378
00:34:13,351 --> 00:34:23,351
It has to pay two fees because when the person says on L2, on the sidechain when they say, I want to withdraw, that is a message on L2.

379
00:34:23,351 --> 00:34:28,351
So everything on L2 needs the L2 fee, but what they're saying is I want to withdraw to L1.

380
00:34:28,351 --> 00:34:36,351
Well, their best case scenario is that they get what they want, and then on L1 the message is included, but then they have to pay.

381
00:34:36,351 --> 00:34:39,351
They have to contribute for a little fee.

382
00:34:39,351 --> 00:34:43,351
Otherwise, I have to worry about that it would never be included on L1.

383
00:34:43,351 --> 00:34:46,351
So 301, the blind merge mining, is a different thing.

384
00:34:47,351 --> 00:34:56,351
What that does is that allows the Layer-1 Bitcoin miners to collect all the L2 transaction fees, even ones that are not deposits or withdrawals.

385
00:34:56,351 --> 00:35:01,351
So if you're just using the sidechain, then all that money flows to mine.

386
00:35:01,351 --> 00:35:10,351
But they are, of course, related because the reason why the miners would support the withdrawals, which is the only thing that they have to do, they have to do this tiny amount of work.

387
00:35:10,351 --> 00:35:15,351
But if they do it honorably, then the carrot is waiting for them.

388
00:35:15,351 --> 00:35:18,351
But, again, 301 is blind.

389
00:35:26,351 --> 00:35:29,351
There's a difference between that was invented by Satoshi.

390
00:35:33,351 --> 00:35:41,351
Okay, so then when we hear the, yeah, so BIP300 is just like standard transaction fees.

391
00:35:41,351 --> 00:35:44,351
It's not a novel way of paying miners.

392
00:35:45,351 --> 00:35:47,351
You are muted, though.

393
00:35:47,351 --> 00:35:48,351
FYI.

394
00:35:48,351 --> 00:35:50,351
Can you hear me now?

395
00:35:50,351 --> 00:35:52,351
Oh, yeah, I can hear you now.

396
00:35:52,351 --> 00:35:55,351
No, sorry, my computer glitched out again.

397
00:35:55,351 --> 00:35:59,351
So BIP300, the transaction fees, it's pretty standard.

398
00:35:59,351 --> 00:36:03,351
Like, you have to pay a fee if you want a transaction on the main chain.

399
00:36:04,351 --> 00:36:15,351
So when people are talking about, like, miner centralization, are they more referring to the mechanism in BIP300 or the mechanism in BIP301?

400
00:36:15,351 --> 00:36:17,351
Or do you know?

401
00:36:17,351 --> 00:36:27,351
I think when people use that phrase, they're referring to this idea that the node, the sidechain node cost is not free.

402
00:36:27,351 --> 00:36:36,351
And so even though it may be arbitrarily small, I think this is a concern troll, and I don't think it's really real, but this is what people say.

403
00:36:36,351 --> 00:36:46,351
They say, oh, the miners feel pressured to run all the sidechain software, and this is a fixed cost.

404
00:36:46,351 --> 00:36:51,351
So it discourages miners of a certain scale.

405
00:36:51,351 --> 00:36:52,351
But I think that's ridiculous.

406
00:36:52,351 --> 00:36:58,351
As I've already told you, the 301 means that the miners don't need to run the full node if it's too expensive.

407
00:36:58,351 --> 00:37:08,351
And the idea that, you know, an ASIC could cost thousands of dollars already or at least hundreds of dollars.

408
00:37:08,351 --> 00:37:20,351
I find it implausible that any piece of software could even cost a similar amount because regular users must be running it in order for there to be a sidechain network.

409
00:37:20,351 --> 00:37:24,351
And then if the sidechain becomes too expensive, the whole network will just die off anyway.

410
00:37:24,351 --> 00:37:31,351
So to me, it doesn't really make any sense at all.

411
00:37:31,351 --> 00:37:36,351
I think they're thinking of something maybe like Solana, where the node is so, so difficult to run.

412
00:37:36,351 --> 00:37:42,351
But in that case, you either do blind merge mining literally or you do it in some other way.

413
00:37:42,351 --> 00:37:43,351
Or you don't do it at all.

414
00:37:43,351 --> 00:37:50,351
None of it matters because it's like either it's paying so much in fees that you don't mind running it or it doesn't pay the fees.

415
00:37:50,351 --> 00:37:57,351
But you then someone you have like the Solana Corporation just runs it all and gives everyone access.

416
00:37:57,351 --> 00:38:00,351
And is that a permission?

417
00:38:00,351 --> 00:38:02,351
Yes. But that's exactly what Liquid does.

418
00:38:02,351 --> 00:38:08,351
Liquid is just like a fully centralized network.

419
00:38:08,351 --> 00:38:13,351
On Liquid, all the transaction fees are collected by a wallet controlled by Blockstream.

420
00:38:13,351 --> 00:38:21,351
So it's kind of like if you have Liquid and then you add to that, Liquid decides to donate some of their money to miners sometimes.

421
00:38:21,351 --> 00:38:24,351
Then you end up with Solana, basically.

422
00:38:24,351 --> 00:38:29,351
So the whole thing, I think, is just I don't think it's a real complaint.

423
00:38:29,351 --> 00:38:33,351
But as far as I can best tell, that is what they mean.

424
00:38:33,351 --> 00:38:36,351
They're worried about like a Solana node or something.

425
00:38:36,351 --> 00:38:44,351
Yeah, because whenever I try and think about it, it just seems like the cost is the same whether you're a miner or you're solely a sidechain miner.

426
00:38:44,351 --> 00:38:48,351
Like the cost to me seems to be the same.

427
00:38:48,351 --> 00:38:52,351
But that's all the questions I had.

428
00:38:52,351 --> 00:38:54,351
Thank you so much for your time.

429
00:38:54,351 --> 00:38:56,351
It really helped me clarify some things.

430
00:38:58,351 --> 00:39:00,351
Cool. Great. Thanks for your question.

431
00:39:01,351 --> 00:39:09,351
OK, now I have a JP100 with a hand and you're on mute.

432
00:39:09,351 --> 00:39:13,351
Don't forget. Yes.

433
00:39:13,351 --> 00:39:17,351
Hello, everyone. Paul, nice to hear your voice again here.

434
00:39:17,351 --> 00:39:26,351
So I can I could rattle off a dozen like really granular, you know, in the weeds, techie questions that I definitely want to hear your opinion on.

435
00:39:26,351 --> 00:39:29,351
But I'm not going to do that. I'm going to take the opposite approach.

436
00:39:29,351 --> 00:39:32,351
I've got like two like incredibly high level things.

437
00:39:32,351 --> 00:39:37,351
So you've been at this for what, five or six years now?

438
00:39:37,351 --> 00:39:39,351
When did you start this?

439
00:39:39,351 --> 00:39:43,351
Well, I wrote this blog post in November 2015.

440
00:39:43,351 --> 00:39:47,351
And even before that, I was working on this prediction market sidechain.

441
00:39:47,351 --> 00:39:52,351
So I was always thinking about how do I tie this weird idea to Bitcoin?

442
00:39:52,351 --> 00:39:57,351
So I've been working on it for a while, but we haven't like been like full time.

443
00:39:57,351 --> 00:40:01,351
It's been in a various state of of interest.

444
00:40:01,351 --> 00:40:04,351
And, you know, it's kind of like I've been doing a lot of things.

445
00:40:04,351 --> 00:40:12,351
But, yeah, the blog post 2015 and then maybe like 20 January 2017, I wrote the blind merge mining post.

446
00:40:12,351 --> 00:40:14,351
And then I would say maybe like.

447
00:40:15,748 --> 00:40:23,748
Twenty nineteen through present is like kind of like full times, like four years, something like that, I don't know, maybe three years.

448
00:40:23,748 --> 00:40:27,268
I don't know how to do the accounting on and off.

449
00:40:27,508 --> 00:40:33,748
So all right, before I even ask the question, so the part this has been partially implemented on Ethereum, right?

450
00:40:33,748 --> 00:40:38,348
I keep hearing that. So the prediction market aspect that you touched on the predecessor.

451
00:40:38,828 --> 00:40:46,108
So, yeah. So so what what did that manifest on the ETH side exactly?

452
00:40:47,307 --> 00:40:56,187
Well, the prediction market thing I had, I published this paper back in, I think it was January 2014.

453
00:40:57,268 --> 00:41:03,108
Called Truthcoin, which is why my Twitter handle is that because, you know, no one can spell my last name.

454
00:41:03,108 --> 00:41:07,988
And so I thought altcoins weren't even really that big back when I named the project.

455
00:41:09,308 --> 00:41:13,228
So there was kind of a weird name, which I ended up with the Truthcoin Twitter handle.

456
00:41:13,308 --> 00:41:24,707
And then from that, a couple of different teams wanted to implement it, including one person who is very familiar with Bitcoin, wanted to do the C++ sort of version, which became Bitcoin Hivemind.

457
00:41:25,587 --> 00:41:32,027
And then there was other there were other people and two of them ended up as ETH projects.

458
00:41:32,027 --> 00:41:35,828
And this is ancient history. So I can tell you all about it if you want.

459
00:41:35,828 --> 00:41:39,027
But it's Augur and Knosis were the two.

460
00:41:39,748 --> 00:41:43,748
And I can I can tell you all about that, all about whatever you want to know.

461
00:41:44,468 --> 00:41:46,228
But it's from a long time ago.

462
00:41:48,108 --> 00:41:54,267
So so the Hivemind is on the BTC side, but is there anything like still today on the ETH side that implements it?

463
00:41:54,788 --> 00:42:17,307
Well, I don't know. I would say probably like Chainlink moved in more in the direction of that type of thing, even though I don't I think, you know, I think all the people working on ETH did not follow the instructions I gave in the Truthcoin white paper and they deviated from it to their detriment.

464
00:42:17,508 --> 00:42:20,428
So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

465
00:42:20,987 --> 00:42:34,027
And I think we'll bring I'll bring the version that I think is the absolute best to BTC via BIP300 is the is would be one of a hope of mine.

466
00:42:34,748 --> 00:42:37,708
And then everyone will see what everyone what they should have done instead.

467
00:42:38,628 --> 00:42:43,027
I got you. OK, so so that that was the the actual question I've got now.

468
00:42:43,348 --> 00:42:48,587
Now, this is almost like the the abortion controversy, right?

469
00:42:48,587 --> 00:42:49,828
This is so polarizing.

470
00:42:50,307 --> 00:42:51,307
This is incredible.

471
00:42:51,307 --> 00:43:04,708
So in your opinion, the people that are so adamantly against you that have as deep an understanding of the technology as yourself or even more, you know, hardcore core devs.

472
00:43:05,027 --> 00:43:08,908
Right. Many of them are dead set against this.

473
00:43:08,908 --> 00:43:11,307
This is this thing is kryptonite.

474
00:43:11,507 --> 00:43:13,188
Absolute absolute kryptonite.

475
00:43:13,667 --> 00:43:20,268
So what, in your opinion, why is this so incredibly polarizing when nobody's on the fence?

476
00:43:21,708 --> 00:43:24,227
Yeah, it's it calls out for explanation.

477
00:43:24,307 --> 00:43:27,507
I completely agree. But, you know, I have to tell you.

478
00:43:28,468 --> 00:43:33,748
The part of the explanation is I think that they're not as I mean, they're very familiar with Bitcoin itself.

479
00:43:33,748 --> 00:43:40,068
But Peter Todd, we started criticizing him earlier this summer on Twitter.

480
00:43:40,068 --> 00:43:48,027
And I said Bitcoin would be if Peter didn't make this comment in 2014, we would be a thousand X ahead of where we are now.

481
00:43:48,387 --> 00:43:51,628
So I was I was kind of bringing the heat and I was getting a lot of attention.

482
00:43:52,828 --> 00:43:58,188
And then we you know, my company, LayerTwo Labs, we hired him literally.

483
00:43:58,188 --> 00:44:02,988
We went back and forth and we said, OK, we'll hire you to produce a critique of the idea.

484
00:44:04,147 --> 00:44:07,908
Which he still hasn't done, like produce in writing, like what is the problem with this idea?

485
00:44:07,908 --> 00:44:13,628
Write it down in one document, you know, with four corners so that has a beginning, a middle and an end.

486
00:44:14,188 --> 00:44:18,227
And then we do a debate on Stefan Levera's podcast.

487
00:44:18,787 --> 00:44:23,548
So that was months ago and he still hasn't produced this document.

488
00:44:23,548 --> 00:44:29,988
But someone else, a completely different person, asked at Tabcom for us to do this debate.

489
00:44:30,988 --> 00:44:42,107
And like the day before, you can look at his look at you can look at Peter Todd's Twitter and, you know, Peter Todd is certainly someone who understands Bitcoin very, very well.

490
00:44:42,427 --> 00:44:46,788
But he's tweeting out things like he's saying, well, maybe I don't understand how it works.

491
00:44:46,788 --> 00:44:48,587
I'll have to ask Paul on stage.

492
00:44:49,027 --> 00:44:54,547
So I think what I think a lot of them actually don't they just haven't looked into it.

493
00:44:54,547 --> 00:44:57,068
It's not that they can't understand it.

494
00:44:57,068 --> 00:44:58,987
They kind of just choose not to.

495
00:44:59,908 --> 00:45:10,748
And the reason why I think this is, is because they're imagining a future where miners, there were someone releases, you know, because it'd be heterogeneity amongst sidechains.

496
00:45:10,748 --> 00:45:14,587
So what they're thinking is it's like it's a food court with lots of restaurants.

497
00:45:16,068 --> 00:45:21,948
Someone will open a restaurant and it's part of my idea that the restaurants are allowed to fail.

498
00:45:22,147 --> 00:45:25,547
I'm not in the what they want is no restaurant ever fails.

499
00:45:25,547 --> 00:45:27,147
They want to all be perfectly secure.

500
00:45:27,188 --> 00:45:31,987
But I say there should be a tolerance for experimentation.

501
00:45:33,068 --> 00:45:34,587
Someone should try a bad idea.

502
00:45:34,587 --> 00:45:38,307
You know, like we have all these different Web pages and not every Web page is success.

503
00:45:38,307 --> 00:45:40,267
Not every YouTube channel is a success.

504
00:45:40,748 --> 00:45:53,788
You know, sometimes a television show gets canceled, but it's because we allow anyone to try that we have the opportunity to have, you know, big cult classic or whatever.

505
00:45:54,628 --> 00:45:57,267
So I'm thinking like anyone can open their own restaurant.

506
00:45:57,827 --> 00:46:07,628
They're thinking if any restaurant, if a miner's ever, if a sidechain fails and then no one can determine who the owner of the coins is or the sidechain doesn't generate any fees.

507
00:46:08,508 --> 00:46:11,027
So the miners just take the coins for some reason.

508
00:46:12,748 --> 00:46:17,948
They, you know, because they want coins then down the line, then they think, oh, we're going to be blamed for that.

509
00:46:18,147 --> 00:46:19,147
We're going to be blamed for that.

510
00:46:19,267 --> 00:46:21,348
But I this is the shift.

511
00:46:21,388 --> 00:46:25,748
The paradigm shift is that the technical people feel responsible.

512
00:46:25,908 --> 00:46:36,668
And it's not just that they feel responsible out of the goodness of their heart, though, if they if they feel responsible, they can claim responsibility for Bitcoin success as their own.

513
00:46:36,668 --> 00:46:37,948
They say this is because of us.

514
00:46:37,948 --> 00:46:46,228
We and our steadfast protection of the Bitcoin network and we guarded the network.

515
00:46:46,228 --> 00:46:52,427
And now then when it goes up and up and up, that was because of us and our indispensable role.

516
00:46:53,827 --> 00:46:59,388
So that's kind of the story that I would spin is that this turns that upside down.

517
00:46:59,587 --> 00:47:08,908
So that's why certain technical elite like the idea and why many other people who are slightly less technical like the idea.

518
00:47:09,348 --> 00:47:19,788
Yeah, I don't think it has to do with I actually think the technical understanding is a little inverted where it's kind of like, isn't there a wooden montane or someone say a man cannot stare directly at the sun or at death?

519
00:47:20,147 --> 00:47:23,228
It's kind of like maybe that's putting it too dramatic.

520
00:47:23,587 --> 00:47:28,348
But so I think, yeah, the possibility of coins being lost, they don't want to be blamed for that.

521
00:47:28,348 --> 00:47:29,628
They don't want to be.

522
00:47:30,388 --> 00:47:31,188
This is part of it.

523
00:47:31,188 --> 00:47:36,188
I can tell I can spin you the long story that I spin for people also, which is that there's a lot of bad luck.

524
00:47:36,188 --> 00:47:38,427
Like this idea came out in 2015.

525
00:47:39,468 --> 00:47:44,107
It was like literally days before scaling to scaling to SegWit was presented.

526
00:47:44,107 --> 00:47:45,827
Everyone wanted to do SegWit.

527
00:47:46,468 --> 00:47:51,948
Everyone, everyone in the world, even large blockers, because it had the block size increase compromise to four megabytes.

528
00:47:51,948 --> 00:47:57,908
So there was it was all about SegWit SegWit was promised April 1st, 2016, but it wasn't ready until the hackathon after.

529
00:47:59,307 --> 00:48:04,267
Scaling three, which was October, October, something 2016, October 10th or something.

530
00:48:04,788 --> 00:48:11,948
So and then what happened before that was because of scaling three miners were annoyed.

531
00:48:11,987 --> 00:48:15,908
So they left to block the signal Bitcoin unlimited, which blocked SegWit.

532
00:48:16,468 --> 00:48:20,948
So there was this miners versus developers thing that went for all of 2017.

533
00:48:21,027 --> 00:48:32,987
So the last thing that anyone wanted to do is give miners any role at all, even a nominal opt in role for consenting adults that no one wanted to touch this because the miners were the enemy.

534
00:48:33,307 --> 00:48:48,388
Then Bitcoin Cash split off and Bitcoin Cash would have been the first users of drivechain in a way, in a way, both small blockers and large blockers would have been the first users because the small blockers would have been like, thank heavens.

535
00:48:48,388 --> 00:48:51,708
Those people are no longer pushing for the block size increase on L1.

536
00:48:52,748 --> 00:48:56,867
And the large blockers would have said, thank heavens, we finally got our block size increase, even though it's on L2.

537
00:48:57,227 --> 00:49:02,907
We don't care because we like SPV mode anyway, so we don't even run nodes, so we don't even notice.

538
00:49:03,748 --> 00:49:05,628
So those those would have been the big users.

539
00:49:05,628 --> 00:49:22,148
So they split off and then I think there's more bad luck, but the short story is that this sour grapes thing I was saying before where I think it's kind of like everyone went their own way and then the Bitcoin way became, okay, Bitcoin is the thing that doesn't change.

540
00:49:22,628 --> 00:49:27,748
Bitcoin is the reliable bank that's been here for thousands of years and no one really wants to fight that narrative.

541
00:49:27,748 --> 00:49:31,588
And then new people who have joined and they've made that narrative like their entire identity.

542
00:49:31,628 --> 00:49:33,188
They've made it part of their book.

543
00:49:33,227 --> 00:49:36,667
They made it part of their whatever school.

544
00:49:38,188 --> 00:49:42,467
So that's that's some of what I think the explanation is.

545
00:49:42,467 --> 00:49:45,867
I don't think any of it has to do with the technical features at all.

546
00:49:45,867 --> 00:50:01,188
And in fact, I firmly believe that the technical people, the technical elite that are not in favor of it, haven't haven't looked into it at all, partially because so much stuff happens in this industry that it's very difficult to even look at something.

547
00:50:01,188 --> 00:50:07,588
So a lot of people will have a thought that is, if it's controversial at all, it's probably doomed.

548
00:50:08,388 --> 00:50:15,987
So anything controversial, I'm not even going to look into because I think that it would be a misallocation of my time.

549
00:50:16,347 --> 00:50:17,667
That's probably what a lot of them think.

550
00:50:18,028 --> 00:50:34,867
And then there are, of course, people who they've invested a lot of time in lightning or they have stock options in a company that they think would, if there's too much of a paradigm shift, they would lose control of the story maybe and they wouldn't do as well.

551
00:50:35,588 --> 00:50:40,628
So those are some of the weird reasons that I think that's my thought.

552
00:50:40,667 --> 00:50:41,588
I don't know if I need help.

553
00:50:41,588 --> 00:50:43,227
Some of that makes some sense to you.

554
00:50:43,667 --> 00:50:44,828
Right now, that's that's great.

555
00:50:44,867 --> 00:50:45,307
That's great.

556
00:50:45,307 --> 00:50:46,667
But I don't want to dwell on the past.

557
00:50:46,667 --> 00:50:56,188
But the the reality is, is that it's quickly becoming evident that by the end of the decade, that the system will be crippled by its own success.

558
00:50:56,227 --> 00:50:58,667
There's everyone's coming to that realization.

559
00:50:59,268 --> 00:51:04,268
I mean, I think that's what's bringing this, you know, making this rise up to the top again.

560
00:51:04,307 --> 00:51:04,547
Right.

561
00:51:04,628 --> 00:51:05,628
I mean, would you agree with that?

562
00:51:07,227 --> 00:51:10,427
Well, I think there's a lot of things in general.

563
00:51:10,427 --> 00:51:12,588
It's like more stuff is invented all the time.

564
00:51:12,948 --> 00:51:14,188
We have more users.

565
00:51:14,227 --> 00:51:21,347
I think, again, people become more familiar with the lightning network and they think like it's not, you know, it's a lot of it is custodial lightning.

566
00:51:21,347 --> 00:51:35,188
So it's not going the way that it's going the way that unfortunately to the, you know, many of the large blockers predicted it would go to some extent, not to a complete extent.

567
00:51:35,188 --> 00:51:37,148
But people don't like that.

568
00:51:37,148 --> 00:51:38,547
So sure.

569
00:51:38,667 --> 00:51:41,708
I mean, with Armstrong bringing up a node, the channel.

570
00:51:42,987 --> 00:51:43,948
Yeah, it's kind of funny.

571
00:51:43,948 --> 00:51:45,628
You know, it's actually hilarious about that.

572
00:51:45,667 --> 00:51:53,227
Brian Armstrong is well known for jumping on an idea right when it's about to crash into the ocean.

573
00:51:53,388 --> 00:51:59,107
And so I kind of honestly chuckled to myself when I saw that he was doing that.

574
00:51:59,107 --> 00:52:01,188
I thought it's a bad luck.

575
00:52:01,188 --> 00:52:11,227
Brian used to be a meme, actually, where it's just like he would do something and then it would just fall into a death spiral right afterwards.

576
00:52:11,227 --> 00:52:15,427
So I kind of actually laughed to myself when I saw it, which is honestly what I was thinking.

577
00:52:16,188 --> 00:52:20,467
When I read that and I think he's kind of like he's been dragging his feet on that the whole time.

578
00:52:20,467 --> 00:52:21,867
I mean, I have two thoughts on that, too.

579
00:52:21,867 --> 00:52:22,787
Like I'm of two minds.

580
00:52:22,787 --> 00:52:29,867
Like on one hand, if I were running an exchange, I would not update the tech stack at all ever because you're like going to get hacked or destroyed.

581
00:52:29,867 --> 00:52:31,667
And it doesn't matter what some people do.

582
00:52:31,907 --> 00:52:34,948
You don't know what their peer review system is like.

583
00:52:35,427 --> 00:52:37,987
So I can see it's rational not not to touch that at all.

584
00:52:37,987 --> 00:52:46,467
But I also think he, Brian Armstrong, probably doesn't even want Bitcoin to succeed at this point because people were very, very mean to him, to say the least.

585
00:52:47,227 --> 00:52:51,427
And so he's probably just like, whatever, I'm just going to make billions of dollars with my exchange.

586
00:52:51,748 --> 00:52:55,068
And maybe even he's just trolling people with this lightning thing.

587
00:52:55,068 --> 00:52:56,427
I don't even know. I have no idea.

588
00:52:56,427 --> 00:53:00,107
Could could be anyway, but I don't think like it's going to move the needle.

589
00:53:01,028 --> 00:53:05,748
It ironically, if it does, it'll just show that the how much power the exchanges have.

590
00:53:05,787 --> 00:53:10,907
It'll just be like three exchanges could probably because the whole lightning network only has like five thousand coins, not even on it.

591
00:53:10,987 --> 00:53:14,427
So it's like two hundredths of a percent.

592
00:53:14,667 --> 00:53:27,467
So it's very small. So if exchange can just has like if we get like three exchanges that each have like three thousand Bitcoin and it's, you know, then they'll go up nine thousand coins to like triple the size, double the size or whatever the lightning network.

593
00:53:27,467 --> 00:53:30,628
So so that would be kind of like.

594
00:53:31,828 --> 00:53:42,028
The lightning network, it would be like it's very different than people thought when they was proposed, it was like six degrees of seven bacon kind of idea.

595
00:53:42,748 --> 00:53:49,588
Right. OK, so so there's two of the things that one is the political aspect, which I don't even want to get into the whole.

596
00:53:50,427 --> 00:54:00,907
Did B.C. having a bullseye in his back and tether, God forbid, gets attacked politically, regulatory wise, but I don't I don't I don't even want to go down that rabbit hole.

597
00:54:01,188 --> 00:54:07,347
What what I just want to touch on finally is, OK, currently today, right between what is it, Marathon and Ant?

598
00:54:07,388 --> 00:54:10,148
It's like fifty three percent of the ashray today.

599
00:54:10,148 --> 00:54:16,588
Right. So in your three hundred world, if they adopted that, would that not represent.

600
00:54:17,588 --> 00:54:23,667
Total control of fees and would they not be, would that not be a cartel right there?

601
00:54:25,307 --> 00:54:35,467
Well, my view is it's foundry and pooled by four or five percent, maybe four percent, but it doesn't matter.

602
00:54:35,667 --> 00:54:42,347
But my view is that the people look at that pie chart, this pie chart, is that a phenomenon?

603
00:54:42,347 --> 00:54:46,347
I don't remember. It's called like looking for your keys under a lamp post or whatever.

604
00:54:46,347 --> 00:54:48,107
It's like this data is there.

605
00:54:48,188 --> 00:54:52,907
They voluntarily reported pools help small miners.

606
00:54:54,347 --> 00:54:59,028
Evade a disadvantage they would otherwise have, which is that the variance.

607
00:54:59,828 --> 00:55:11,148
So pools are good for small miners, and that's why they exist and they compete with each other on brand, which is why they announced to the world that they exist and why we know about them.

608
00:55:11,148 --> 00:55:21,068
And then this data shows up in the world and then people think, you know, you're you're you're making men pooled out space and you want to provide people with useful data.

609
00:55:21,068 --> 00:55:22,467
So you think, of course, I'll make a pie.

610
00:55:22,508 --> 00:55:23,748
I'll make a pie chart with.

611
00:55:25,188 --> 00:55:32,268
The hash rate, and I'm one second while you while you're saying that, also touch on explain why.

612
00:55:33,427 --> 00:55:38,068
OK, while you while you're describing that, just also touch on what they call the dark pools.

613
00:55:38,068 --> 00:55:43,508
They're saying that they have like off the book pools that are even make that make them even bigger than they appear to be.

614
00:55:43,987 --> 00:55:45,948
Yeah, I can explain that, I think also.

615
00:55:46,107 --> 00:55:55,628
So the reason I bring that up is that that that preamble, I'm telling you that the only reason that pie chart exists is like because of those factors.

616
00:55:55,628 --> 00:56:07,787
And what I'm trying to say is the pie chart doesn't really mean what people it's not like it's like in like succession or whatever, where it's like you own 50 percent and you can like whatever fire people from the board and

617
00:56:07,787 --> 00:56:09,388
take over this.

618
00:56:09,427 --> 00:56:12,347
The pie chart is very misleading, like extremely misleading.

619
00:56:12,867 --> 00:56:20,227
It it doesn't really mean anything and just exists because it's a logical thing to do if you're making a site about Bitcoin.

620
00:56:20,227 --> 00:56:29,148
But so why do I say that the reality is the pools really don't have very much agency, especially over the long term.

621
00:56:29,188 --> 00:56:42,427
Over the short term, maybe they can do quite a bit, but if the pool is not doing what is in the financial best interests of the although it's funny, you know, F2 pool today on ambiguous.

622
00:56:43,867 --> 00:56:48,667
But but if the pool does not do what's in the best interests of its members.

623
00:56:50,547 --> 00:56:52,307
The members will switch to a different pool.

624
00:56:53,028 --> 00:57:05,107
So so it's a principal agent problem where every miner who joins a pool, they're thinking, I can point my hash rate at any pool that I want or I could even start my own pool if I wish.

625
00:57:06,427 --> 00:57:10,107
So they're thinking, you know, what's this pool going to do for me?

626
00:57:10,787 --> 00:57:12,188
They're going to reduce my variance.

627
00:57:12,227 --> 00:57:14,388
OK, great. And then they're going to charge me fees.

628
00:57:14,508 --> 00:57:15,867
So they want the fees to be low.

629
00:57:15,867 --> 00:57:17,307
They want the variance to be reduced.

630
00:57:18,307 --> 00:57:27,707
So the pools don't really have as much agency as people think, like they can't like just decide things over the long run, absolutely not in the short run, you know, maybe.

631
00:57:28,908 --> 00:57:38,467
But so it's not a cartel at all because it's not a cartel anymore, but they but they can put themselves ahead of the line when they're when they're choosing from the men pool.

632
00:57:38,467 --> 00:57:44,107
Right. Obviously, no, because the men pool is in one sense is unique to each person.

633
00:57:44,107 --> 00:57:45,867
In another sense, it's common to everyone.

634
00:57:46,548 --> 00:57:53,788
So there's a men pool that's out there and it has all the transactions and they they the every everyone's node.

635
00:57:53,788 --> 00:58:02,908
Even if you even if you use like Electron, it will tell you it will say this is the men pool and this is how deep each transaction is in the men pool.

636
00:58:02,908 --> 00:58:07,548
It's a sorting like what I was mentioning before about sorting in a line at the train station.

637
00:58:08,227 --> 00:58:10,067
So the men pool is really the same for everyone.

638
00:58:10,748 --> 00:58:16,788
And, you know, that's not literally the case because it's also a sense in which it's unique for each person.

639
00:58:16,788 --> 00:58:24,428
But the point is that every unconfirmed transaction that you know about can be sorted into a line based on the fee.

640
00:58:25,107 --> 00:58:28,587
And so everyone's trying to make the the next block.

641
00:58:28,587 --> 00:58:34,308
And if you have it's what you can do if you have 50 percent is you can orphan the rival blocks.

642
00:58:34,308 --> 00:58:40,028
But this that's a strategically unstable and it doesn't work because it's too extreme.

643
00:58:40,388 --> 00:58:47,308
It means no one who's not in the cartel, as you put it, none of the rival miners can earn any money.

644
00:58:47,707 --> 00:58:51,308
And as a result, it's just too unstable because those people will partner.

645
00:58:51,308 --> 00:58:57,827
They'll still go with the ample and they'll say, we'll give you anything to leave the foundry coalition and join the rest of us.

646
00:58:57,827 --> 00:58:59,187
We'll give you ninety nine percent.

647
00:59:00,308 --> 00:59:02,587
But then foundries cut out and foundries getting zero.

648
00:59:02,587 --> 00:59:11,987
So then so the whole thing just becomes like a kind of a pointless cost imposed by the miners on themselves and everyone.

649
00:59:13,107 --> 00:59:14,067
So it doesn't really work.

650
00:59:14,748 --> 00:59:16,628
So the only thing they can do really doesn't really work.

651
00:59:17,107 --> 00:59:22,748
Everyone, if you have 10 percent of the hash rate, you will find roughly 10 percent of the blocks.

652
00:59:22,748 --> 00:59:26,148
It doesn't matter if it's 90 percent versus 10 percent.

653
00:59:28,788 --> 00:59:29,908
It splits very evenly.

654
00:59:30,388 --> 00:59:33,748
So but didn't you say, oh, yeah, the dark pools.

655
00:59:34,107 --> 00:59:38,107
Yeah, sometimes what miners do is they they know each other's phone number.

656
00:59:38,148 --> 00:59:56,548
And in fact, I think even as early as 2015, according to the information that I was told by credible sources, they have like they have like a shared mempool and they have like different servers and have ways to communicate with each other very quickly and including including spying on each other.

657
00:59:57,187 --> 01:00:00,428
Which is a but none of these things actually do anything bad.

658
01:00:00,428 --> 01:00:02,908
They actually just help the connectivity of the network, really.

659
01:00:02,947 --> 01:00:06,748
So so what these things do is it doesn't matter.

660
01:00:06,748 --> 01:00:11,148
Like, it doesn't matter if if every miner has an incentive to do the same thing.

661
01:00:11,148 --> 01:00:16,148
It doesn't matter if 100 percent of them are core are coordinated by that incentive.

662
01:00:17,487 --> 01:00:22,527
Or by the you know, by a coordinator who's telling them what to do.

663
01:00:24,287 --> 01:00:27,727
I don't know, I don't know if that last point made sense, but hopefully, no, it does. It does.

664
01:00:27,727 --> 01:00:32,527
So you're saying if one can cut the line, they all can cut the line and they could all do that.

665
01:00:32,527 --> 01:00:37,806
So and at the end of the day, it would just be it's like they're trying to get on

666
01:00:38,447 --> 01:00:41,967
a boat or a ferry or something, and they're all cutting each other in line by the time

667
01:00:42,687 --> 01:00:47,646
by the time they all get on on the ferry because they're cutting each other all the time.

668
01:00:48,527 --> 01:00:52,687
It's mostly the same as if they had just gotten on in an orderly fashion,

669
01:00:52,687 --> 01:00:57,087
except for the ferry took so long to leave that, you know,

670
01:00:57,806 --> 01:01:01,327
two ferries could have gone by then or something. So they're just not really going to do it.

671
01:01:04,446 --> 01:01:08,446
It's my opinion. Of course, you know, anything can happen. But we have we haven't really.

672
01:01:08,446 --> 01:01:13,407
An interesting thing is we don't really see any of the stuff. This is like people in like

673
01:01:13,407 --> 01:01:17,727
academic armchair stuff would predict this about Bitcoin in its early days. They'd say

674
01:01:17,727 --> 01:01:21,647
the hash rate would oscillate or the hash rate would stall out or they would be constant.

675
01:01:21,647 --> 01:01:25,406
There'd be no there's no incentive to propagate blocks. There's like selfish mining.

676
01:01:25,406 --> 01:01:29,647
So people said this, this, this and that and blah, blah, blah. And none of it has really

677
01:01:29,647 --> 01:01:37,327
actually happened. So that and all that stuff is those are like the most extreme scenarios that

678
01:01:37,967 --> 01:01:43,647
academics could think up. But really, I think this metaphor of just a group of people waiting

679
01:01:43,647 --> 01:01:47,647
in line is the best because you know what I mean? Like if you if you you could try to cut in line,

680
01:01:47,647 --> 01:01:55,007
but if the group loses the if they lose the the social norms of the line, then how does anyone

681
01:01:55,007 --> 01:01:59,406
know that they'll ever get, you know, that they'll ever get on the ferry or whatever?

682
01:02:00,126 --> 01:02:03,007
So it just doesn't I think it just doesn't converge to anything.

683
01:02:03,887 --> 01:02:10,046
Okay, I'll leave you with just one point. In fact, maybe I'll put it in this.

684
01:02:10,686 --> 01:02:16,287
Bill Bennett from Barefoot did a podcast with Natalie, what's her name?

685
01:02:17,567 --> 01:02:21,567
Recently, and he brought up some really interesting statistics about

686
01:02:23,167 --> 01:02:31,727
how the layer one chain is going to basically be exhausted with the limited number of transactions

687
01:02:31,727 --> 01:02:37,486
by as I alluded to it earlier, when I said it's going to be crippled by its own success.

688
01:02:37,486 --> 01:02:41,727
But you know, by the end of the decade, and mostly I got it from the math that that Bill

689
01:02:41,727 --> 01:02:48,447
Bennett did. And he I found this this interview fascinating. And I I'll put it up there. I think

690
01:02:48,447 --> 01:02:53,167
it's a it's time well spent listening to what he said. Cool. I'm not familiar with it. But it

691
01:02:53,167 --> 01:02:58,526
sounds interesting. And yeah, I think everyone who studied Bitcoin agrees with well with one

692
01:02:58,526 --> 01:03:04,766
notable exception of the large block the L1 large blocker group. But those people not

693
01:03:04,766 --> 01:03:11,567
withstanding most people want to agree that Bitcoin should scale in layers as they say,

694
01:03:11,567 --> 01:03:19,007
so they will then the L1 chain will only be some used for settlement or it'll be used like it'll

695
01:03:19,007 --> 01:03:23,007
be like the Bank of International Settlements or like the Fed or it'll be like a clearinghouse.

696
01:03:23,007 --> 01:03:27,807
And regular person will be on a different layer that we use a you know, something else.

697
01:03:28,526 --> 01:03:33,246
But now we have lots of hands. And I don't remember who was first, but I think it was

698
01:03:33,886 --> 01:03:38,367
body. But I don't know. Does anyone remember? I don't know. Sorry, if you want. I think Jay,

699
01:03:38,367 --> 01:03:40,606
I think you were third. I'm not sure if that's right. I hope it

700
01:03:40,606 --> 01:03:44,526
is actually crypto is ahead of me. And then and then it was me and then Jane

701
01:03:44,526 --> 01:03:47,727
will do crypto body and then Jay will do that.

702
01:03:50,606 --> 01:03:58,207
Hi, thanks. I'll be quick. Just a few things. So I'm a big fan of essentially what you're

703
01:03:58,207 --> 01:04:06,207
getting at here is like a unified chain protocol. And this is a step above any CCIPs out there. I

704
01:04:06,207 --> 01:04:11,246
think it would redefine CCIPs cross chain interoperability protocols for those that

705
01:04:11,246 --> 01:04:16,766
aren't aware of what those are. But there are some points to be made. I'm just the more I

706
01:04:16,766 --> 01:04:21,727
learn about drivechains and the more I read your bit and come to a better understanding of it.

707
01:04:22,447 --> 01:04:29,167
I do have concerns about the meme pool. And although there is a protocol for,

708
01:04:29,966 --> 01:04:35,406
you know, for the line essentially to be cut off at the end for those who that are not bidding

709
01:04:36,126 --> 01:04:47,007
the most. How do we prevent and increase that line as more adoption and more integration with

710
01:04:47,007 --> 01:04:55,246
other chains before the inevitable adoption and integration with other chains occurs with Bitcoin?

711
01:04:55,966 --> 01:05:01,887
How do we keep the reduction of the congestion going? How do we keep

712
01:05:03,966 --> 01:05:11,406
Bitcoin as a network moving and prevents events like we saw this last week where, you know,

713
01:05:11,406 --> 01:05:17,007
we had 500,000 transactions that were delayed. And, you know, it's costing,

714
01:05:17,727 --> 01:05:20,847
you know, everybody in the line is paying more and more and more and more. So the guy at the

715
01:05:20,847 --> 01:05:26,206
end of the line is trying to, you know, come to the front and, you know, it's just costing an

716
01:05:26,206 --> 01:05:30,126
enormous amount of money and you're going to end up paying a full Bitcoin to send a Bitcoin, you

717
01:05:30,126 --> 01:05:39,086
know, kind of thing. So how do we prevent that? And I don't want to get into it here because

718
01:05:39,086 --> 01:05:45,806
sometimes, you know, Bitcoin folks, you know, they don't enjoy discussing other technologies,

719
01:05:45,806 --> 01:05:51,646
which is kind of absurd to me. But the reality is classical computation is

720
01:05:53,806 --> 01:05:59,567
facing a large threat. And we're seeing blockchains now that have first block candidates

721
01:05:59,567 --> 01:06:07,966
that are quantum computed blocks. These candidates are real. They're there. I won't mention the

722
01:06:07,966 --> 01:06:18,287
blockchain that it's on. But how do you see Bitcoin integrating with quantum chains essentially?

723
01:06:19,167 --> 01:06:25,406
And do you think Bitcoin will survive in a multi-chain world? You know, we have a multi-chain

724
01:06:25,406 --> 01:06:32,206
theory is not just about how blockchains built on classical computers will integrate, interact

725
01:06:32,206 --> 01:06:40,206
with each other. It's about how the next iteration of computing will build blockchains and

726
01:06:41,086 --> 01:06:48,126
write encryption. And will blockchains even really exist? So 5150 attacks are something I

727
01:06:48,126 --> 01:06:55,487
like to focus on. And some, you know, we've seen simulations where 256 bit encryption, where

728
01:06:56,447 --> 01:07:05,487
SHA-256 has been broken and 5150 attacks were successfully deployed. And, you know, addresses

729
01:07:05,487 --> 01:07:18,126
were, wallets were sending, you know, Bitcoin, well, the simulated Bitcoin rather to a specific

730
01:07:18,126 --> 01:07:22,847
address essentially. So maybe you can touch on that. Maybe you can't. Essentially, I'm just

731
01:07:22,926 --> 01:07:33,406
concerned about speed essentially and cost. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for your question. I wrote

732
01:07:33,406 --> 01:07:39,887
an essay that, as I mentioned before, called The Thunder. And I tried to talk about scaling

733
01:07:39,887 --> 01:07:44,447
by sidechains in this essay, which is, if you go to truthcoin.info or you just search

734
01:07:45,327 --> 01:07:51,007
truthcoin thunder, truthcoin is the name of my blog. There's no coin, but I kind of like,

735
01:07:51,007 --> 01:07:56,686
the blog is only for my own benefit. So I never intended it to be big, although it is

736
01:07:56,686 --> 01:08:01,966
kind of popular among certain people. But anyway, you can find this essay and I write all about

737
01:08:01,966 --> 01:08:09,327
how I would think we would meet the throughput, you know, transaction needs of everyone on the

738
01:08:09,327 --> 01:08:16,366
planet Earth, you know, tomorrow using this idea, which I think is, people don't like it because

739
01:08:16,366 --> 01:08:22,526
it involves expensive nodes and the, you know, it involves BIP300 and involves slightly more

740
01:08:22,526 --> 01:08:33,007
active participation. But my view is that right now, we're not giving 8 billion people in the

741
01:08:33,007 --> 01:08:40,206
world any way of actually using Bitcoin tomorrow that is not custodial. So we should just keep

742
01:08:40,206 --> 01:08:45,646
moving in the direction that we can move. And we should always be improving that, but we should

743
01:08:46,126 --> 01:08:53,006
So you should probably read that essay if you want a full description of exactly my point of

744
01:08:53,006 --> 01:08:58,446
view and exactly what I think should happen. And I think, you know, money is in like a big,

745
01:08:58,446 --> 01:09:02,927
it's inherently hierarchical in my view. So you have like a bank of international

746
01:09:02,927 --> 01:09:06,127
settlements on top and you have the different central banks of the world

747
01:09:08,047 --> 01:09:14,206
and been slightly beneath that. And then in the Fed, in the United States, the Federal Reserve,

748
01:09:15,167 --> 01:09:18,607
we have all the member banks, you know, which would include many small banks,

749
01:09:18,607 --> 01:09:25,247
but also includes like Bank of America, Chase, whatever. So Wells Fargo. So then,

750
01:09:25,247 --> 01:09:31,406
and then you have a, you know, credit card company has an account at Chase and then you have

751
01:09:31,406 --> 01:09:36,287
cash and you have IOUs, you have Venmo, all those people have an account at,

752
01:09:37,326 --> 01:09:41,966
you know, at Wells Fargo or whatever. I think it is absurd that we don't

753
01:09:42,687 --> 01:09:48,287
talk about technology and other chains. And it's kind of, I asked myself in what other scenario

754
01:09:48,927 --> 01:09:51,966
would that be rational? You know what I mean? Like if you were running

755
01:09:53,487 --> 01:09:57,086
Walmart, wouldn't you talk about what Target is doing? Like, wouldn't that be mostly what

756
01:09:57,086 --> 01:10:03,167
you would talk about? But it speaks to how people in Bitcoin have this view that is entirely based

757
01:10:03,167 --> 01:10:09,167
on like a meme. It's entirely based on attention and awareness. And that unfortunately I think

758
01:10:09,167 --> 01:10:15,886
is related to the immersion of the cult, which is thinks that it's completely like they literally

759
01:10:15,886 --> 01:10:20,287
believe in a way that Bitcoin is like an NFT or something where it's just, if it exists in people's

760
01:10:20,287 --> 01:10:26,287
minds, if it exists as like a photograph or a word, that's the only existence that it has.

761
01:10:26,847 --> 01:10:33,566
So I think it's kind of, in a way it is a lack of faith in Bitcoin. But yeah, the quantum thing is

762
01:10:33,566 --> 01:10:38,206
very interesting because I always heard people say that that's really far off. And then I heard

763
01:10:38,367 --> 01:10:42,927
after years of research, there was like four qubits. And I thought it was like people said,

764
01:10:42,927 --> 01:10:44,847
yeah, it's going to take another 20 years to get to like 12 qubits.

765
01:10:44,847 --> 01:10:50,687
No, it's been here for the last three years, Paul. I mean, IBM specifically, you usually have

766
01:10:50,687 --> 01:10:56,927
to contact kind of one of their engineers directly or kind of really look on the internet. But three

767
01:10:56,927 --> 01:11:00,766
years ago, they did the simulation that I was referencing. And I was referencing their work,

768
01:11:00,766 --> 01:11:07,886
their quantum team's work. And SHA-256 was obliterated and they successfully

769
01:11:07,886 --> 01:11:11,727
deployed a 5150 on their simulated Bitcoin network.

770
01:11:13,487 --> 01:11:17,966
Yeah, I heard it was getting up to like hundreds or something. And I was like, wow,

771
01:11:17,966 --> 01:11:24,287
that's really big. So yeah, the quantum algorithms do exist. And I think obviously,

772
01:11:24,287 --> 01:11:29,646
if something was really broken, it would be a no brainer. Who would be pushing against

773
01:11:29,646 --> 01:11:34,206
switching the quantum resistant algorithms? But I think they're very inefficient in terms of how

774
01:11:34,206 --> 01:11:39,966
much, you know, like I think the signature is like 8000 bytes or something. I think something

775
01:11:39,966 --> 01:11:46,847
like that, which is big, way worse than 64. So it'd be 100 times bigger. That would be unfortunate.

776
01:11:48,607 --> 01:11:55,487
But yeah, I think that, you know, it's just a simple matter of if the quantum technology goes

777
01:11:55,487 --> 01:12:00,127
there, then everything will have to switch. And it will just be, but I mean, that would be too bad,

778
01:12:00,127 --> 01:12:05,086
because I know it would be much more expensive to run. But it might also stimulate, I mean,

779
01:12:05,086 --> 01:12:11,006
everyone would have to do it. So it might stimulate, you know, more R&D in like bigger hard drives.

780
01:12:11,566 --> 01:12:15,886
I kind of think hard drives have kind of stopped getting bigger, because now they're actually so

781
01:12:15,886 --> 01:12:20,127
big that even a regular person using a PC like doesn't, you know, you don't really even fill

782
01:12:20,127 --> 01:12:24,446
them up. It doesn't matter how many selfies you take. People get like a one terabyte,

783
01:12:24,446 --> 01:12:28,607
three terabyte drive, it really is too big. So maybe there would be just more advancements. And

784
01:12:29,326 --> 01:12:35,247
I'm not sure. But I think that everyone would have to do it. And we would have to help out,

785
01:12:35,247 --> 01:12:39,566
we would feel bad about Bitcoin being harder to run on a relative basis. But we would be,

786
01:12:39,566 --> 01:12:44,047
we could feel good about having quantum computers that would maybe like, I don't know,

787
01:12:44,047 --> 01:12:50,766
solve other problems for mankind. Yeah, I think it's difficult to, sorry, I mean, it is absurd,

788
01:12:50,766 --> 01:12:56,847
because especially this concept of quantum resistance, it's just such a, it's such a funny

789
01:12:56,847 --> 01:13:02,206
concept. And you're right, I think a lot of Bitcoin maximalists and these, you know, these,

790
01:13:02,206 --> 01:13:07,006
these even core devs on Bitcoin, they're not actual cryptographers, they're not actual

791
01:13:07,006 --> 01:13:10,607
mathematicians. And they'll tell you they're not. And they'll tell you not to talk about S-coins

792
01:13:10,607 --> 01:13:16,927
or other technology, which is obscene, which is why we're seeing such small amounts of innovation

793
01:13:17,646 --> 01:13:24,687
on Bitcoin, and blockchain in general. But this idea of quantum resistant classical computers,

794
01:13:24,687 --> 01:13:31,406
quantum resistant software that's predicated on classical computation, there's no such thing as

795
01:13:31,406 --> 01:13:40,446
quantum resistant systems, unless those systems are coded with quantum computer code. And they're

796
01:13:40,446 --> 01:13:46,526
housed on quantum computers or a computer that can process small amounts. Well, it would have to be

797
01:13:46,526 --> 01:13:51,646
an enormous amount of really large computers to process quantum computations at scale and be

798
01:13:51,646 --> 01:14:00,367
secure. But, um, yeah, I agree with you that the word absurd is, is just scratching the surface

799
01:14:00,367 --> 01:14:07,566
when it comes to how we should define, you know, the these core devs and, you know, most of the

800
01:14:07,566 --> 01:14:14,367
focus on blockchain, it's, it's not secure and calling Bitcoin or any other blockchain quantum

801
01:14:14,367 --> 01:14:19,566
resistant or any technology quantum resistant, because you have some protocol from NIST, just

802
01:14:19,566 --> 01:14:26,127
because NIST is telling you that, hey, this, this, this, this integration will make your system

803
01:14:26,127 --> 01:14:32,526
quantum resistant. Well, like I said, it's classical computer, it's classical computation,

804
01:14:32,526 --> 01:14:40,847
it's not quantum resistant. And I thank you and I applaud you for even engaging, because a lot of

805
01:14:40,847 --> 01:14:47,727
people don't, and you're right, it's out of fear, it's out of ignorance, it's out of just, it's out

806
01:14:47,727 --> 01:14:53,487
of the fear of attacking quantum computation and understanding it and understanding these quantum

807
01:14:53,487 --> 01:14:58,927
bits and understanding how to code them and understanding the, the computational engineering

808
01:14:58,927 --> 01:15:06,927
behind what it takes to build this and sustain even a single qubit. So yeah, awesome.

809
01:15:07,886 --> 01:15:10,687
Hey, well, hey, thanks for your question. Thank you.

810
01:15:12,687 --> 01:15:15,006
Okay, I guess Badi was second, right?

811
01:15:16,367 --> 01:15:22,047
Hey, thanks for giving me the opportunity to ask some questions. I definitely like to pull, pull

812
01:15:22,047 --> 01:15:27,326
back a little bit to drivechains and maybe ask something that's a few, I wouldn't call them

813
01:15:27,326 --> 01:15:31,886
technical, you know, because I'm like an advanced blood, definitely not dev level. So my first

814
01:15:32,206 --> 01:15:37,966
question would be that, given the three month timeline, where you'd have basically 25,000

815
01:15:37,966 --> 01:15:42,367
transactions that could peg back into Bitcoin every three months, which seems a bit slow.

816
01:15:43,406 --> 01:15:47,487
Do you think or what do you think about the potential for people to try and form bridges

817
01:15:47,487 --> 01:15:51,807
anyways? Because, I mean, you know, we see atomic swaps with other chains, we see bridges

818
01:15:52,367 --> 01:15:57,487
and Ethereum getting more like, at least more secure than they used to be. Do you think that

819
01:15:57,487 --> 01:16:04,287
potential exists with drivechains? You know, people will do the atomic swaps. I think that's

820
01:16:04,287 --> 01:16:08,847
correct. Or even that, or they will go further and they will just straight up use Coinbase or

821
01:16:08,847 --> 01:16:14,847
whatever, you know, like they'll just deposit L2 coins, trade, and then withdraw. And they don't

822
01:16:14,847 --> 01:16:21,006
even, you know, they'll use like a custodial swap. But if you don't want to use, do that,

823
01:16:21,006 --> 01:16:27,086
then you can use the same HTLCs that power the Lightning Network, you would just make a,

824
01:16:27,086 --> 01:16:33,487
you know, you say, I'll pay, A pays B, two sidechain coins conditional on magic R being

825
01:16:33,487 --> 01:16:40,847
revealed. And then you see the same thing, use the same hash H of R on L1. So it's just two

826
01:16:40,847 --> 01:16:47,727
transactions. One of the two parties knows both of the Rs, since it's the same R. And they either

827
01:16:47,727 --> 01:16:53,807
reveal R and the both of the trades go through or they don't reveal R and the time lock expires and

828
01:16:53,807 --> 01:16:59,167
the funds are returned. So people will do that. All the people, most people will do that. Most

829
01:16:59,167 --> 01:17:03,966
people will not use the slow thing. I think you're right. I made it three months because people kept

830
01:17:03,966 --> 01:17:09,326
complaining about my, I was originally two weeks and I had in mind five and six hours, which is

831
01:17:09,326 --> 01:17:16,526
how long it took for us to fix the inflation bug. And that also led to a 2015 downgrade botched

832
01:17:16,526 --> 01:17:22,686
BIP-66 activation. So those were emergencies that happened like in literally in like the middle of

833
01:17:22,686 --> 01:17:28,446
the night and they were still fixed in five or six hours. And some of them involved like writing

834
01:17:28,446 --> 01:17:33,166
code or releasing new versions or getting people to change what their computer was doing. So I was

835
01:17:33,166 --> 01:17:38,527
thinking five, six hours, that's the time to beat. And I made it two weeks and I thought no one will

836
01:17:38,527 --> 01:17:43,247
ever complain about this, but people kept complaining about miners can steal. So I made it

837
01:17:43,247 --> 01:17:48,767
three months. And I have to tell you, I have second guessed it more and more because it seems like

838
01:17:48,767 --> 01:17:52,127
people still complain about miners can steal. They don't, they don't seem to really understand

839
01:17:52,127 --> 01:17:59,166
the relationship between the amount of time and the unlikelihood of that happening. So I think

840
01:17:59,166 --> 01:18:04,607
maybe I was wrong to make it longer because the critics who were saying that clearly

841
01:18:05,487 --> 01:18:10,686
misunderstand that aspect of it, I think. But nonetheless, it doesn't really matter

842
01:18:10,686 --> 01:18:14,527
because most people will swap out instantly. They'll bridge out using something else.

843
01:18:14,527 --> 01:18:20,286
They're free to invent any number of things to swap L1 coins for L2 coins. The sidechain is

844
01:18:20,286 --> 01:18:25,887
always aware of everything that happens on L1, so it should be very easy to build a plethora of ways of

845
01:18:27,326 --> 01:18:33,727
switching the coins. So, excuse me one second, excuse me, I'm sorry, isn't three months if no one

846
01:18:33,727 --> 01:18:41,166
objects and if there is a controversy, isn't it six months? Only 51% of the hash rate

847
01:18:41,166 --> 01:18:47,566
support the withdrawal and the other 49% are indifferent or just not

848
01:18:47,566 --> 01:18:51,407
paying attention. That is six months. So it's three, so it used to be two to four weeks.

849
01:18:55,007 --> 01:18:59,887
Yeah, I'd be interested if any of the people objecting to that timeline, to any timeline,

850
01:19:00,446 --> 01:19:06,127
could produce a statistical analysis that shows the likelihood of, you know, a negative adverse

851
01:19:06,127 --> 01:19:11,326
event happening. Because I mean, you know, there's always the potential that we could reorg, say, 10

852
01:19:11,326 --> 01:19:16,847
blocks, but like what's the real odds that we're going to reorg 10 blocks? It's just so incredibly

853
01:19:16,847 --> 01:19:21,647
low that it's probably never going to happen unless there's some kind of crazy tail risk event.

854
01:19:21,647 --> 01:19:26,286
Okay, so yeah, I mean, I think that that makes sense that yeah, people will form bridges, but

855
01:19:26,286 --> 01:19:31,647
probably people will just use exchanges anyways, unfortunately, which has been the trend for this,

856
01:19:31,647 --> 01:19:39,166
basically the entire crypto experiment. So my next question then is, why wouldn't, why wouldn't...

857
01:19:42,206 --> 01:19:46,527
But I was just saying, like, it was hours and then it changed it from hours to weeks,

858
01:19:46,527 --> 01:19:51,806
I moved it up two notches, and then I moved it from weeks to months. And that's, that's kind of

859
01:19:51,806 --> 01:19:56,046
like what I was thinking, because the point is, it's just a really long time. Anyway, sorry to

860
01:19:56,607 --> 01:19:59,647
drop off like that. Please continue whatever you were, you're saying that

861
01:20:00,527 --> 01:20:03,887
we don't really have big reorgs now anyway, so...

862
01:20:04,108 --> 01:20:34,108
Yeah, yeah, I was mostly getting at the critics, like if a critic doesn't produce some kind of analysis, a statistical analysis, which shows the likelihood of an adverse event, and it's like, okay, are you, are you criticizing from a place of knowledge? Are you just criticizing from a place of ignorance or because you just don't like something or because someone else told you not to like it? Anyways, that's kind of get almost getting off the rails there. My next question would be about, so okay, if we accept that people are probably just going to use bridges, and or exchanges, unfortunately, which seems to be the trend where people

863
01:20:34,108 --> 01:20:43,628
tend to use exchanges more than anything. Why wouldn't we be able to do something like a sovereign rollup using inscription data for like the data availability layer?

864
01:20:43,628 --> 01:20:52,907
What would be, what would be other than the blind merge mining, what would be the difference between a drivechain and the way that you envision it versus something like a sovereign rollup?

865
01:20:52,907 --> 01:20:59,067
Because I think, you know, the bridge ecosystem is getting pretty decent in Ethereum, for example, where they do these rollups.

866
01:20:59,468 --> 01:21:06,588
What are your thoughts on that? Like, are there significant differences there? I've kind of been asking this question, I can't really find a good answer to it. So you're probably the guy to answer it.

867
01:21:08,027 --> 01:21:19,947
Okay, well, if I remember my vocab correctly, the sovereign rollup is just using the, the blockchain is like a parking lot for data. So the sovereign rollup is not the good one.

868
01:21:20,268 --> 01:21:28,667
So sovereign rollup does kind of doesn't mean anything. It's just like a, it's like a taproot inscription, or like an operatron or something. It just says, we've dumped the data.

869
01:21:28,667 --> 01:21:37,387
It keeps the data availability for the sidechain, like, because nodes need data availability. So it connects that data availability directly to Bitcoin.

870
01:21:37,468 --> 01:21:47,387
It's saying the Ethereum rollups need the data to be somewhere. So they park the Ethereum data on Bitcoin. It's kind of like, this is exactly what we probably don't want.

871
01:21:47,387 --> 01:21:59,307
Because now there's, Ethereum is using our blockchain. I mean, they pay for it. But it's, it's the opposite of what I had in mind, which is that you would have,

872
01:22:00,268 --> 01:22:12,507
we are, Bitcoiners would go to it, would conjure up something new, instead of using L1 BTC block space, conjure up a new blockchain, go over there, and it would be magic Ethereum layer two blockchain, and then come back.

873
01:22:12,507 --> 01:22:18,268
This is like the, the altcoin Ethereum is invading the BTC blockchain.

874
01:22:18,268 --> 01:22:28,587
Okay, that makes sense. Finally, I've been asking so many people this on Twitter, and no one could tell me that. No, that makes sense. You're trying to not waste Bitcoin block space, even if it's just inscription block space.

875
01:22:30,268 --> 01:22:42,027
Right. So the rollups, they have different meanings. And the meaning is very significant. So the sovereign one, I think, should honestly be renamed, if I understand it correctly, which I,

876
01:22:42,348 --> 01:22:43,227
you do, you do.

877
01:22:44,027 --> 01:23:02,428
So it's like, it should really be renamed, because it's not, it doesn't really, that, you know, what people think of with the rollup idea is something like, we have a special temporary, a block, we conjure a block, it's very sidechain, like we conjure a block somewhere, and everything in there is wet concrete.

878
01:23:02,667 --> 01:23:21,708
And then at the end, we can compress that down, we roll it up, and put the compressed thing in ETH. And as long as not enough, as long as enough people cooperate, then we get away with it. And if they don't, then we only get away with a little of it. And so, so it's a neat compression thing.

879
01:23:21,708 --> 01:23:51,628
The, this idea is slightly different than that, because I have in mind, I have compression in mind. That's true. That's the scaling sidechain idea. But I have a little bit more on my plate than just that, because I also have like disagreement in mind, I have like, someone wants to rewrite the whole blockchain from scratch in Rust, or they want to write it in JavaScript, or they want to do something, they have to invent their own thing that no one else can even wrap their head around, like some weird,

880
01:23:51,867 --> 01:24:17,387
you know, autistic genius stereotype, and they come up with their own thing, and no one can figure out what it is. And it's just kind of like, they create it, and then the miners just kind of shrug, and they say, I don't know, we'll give it a try, I guess we can always shut it off later. And then it ends up being like this huge thing. So I have a kind of more of a creativity idea in mind, in addition to the compression.

881
01:24:18,027 --> 01:24:23,868
That's like my philosophy, like design criterion for this project.

882
01:24:24,828 --> 01:24:49,387
Okay, I think so. If I think mostly, if I understood what you're saying is that you're not, you're not using so much of the block space, you're really just connecting back to the Bitcoin blockchain as minimally as necessary to, to prevent it from becoming basically an altcoin, because every coin on there is connected back to Bitcoin. And you're really using up a very small amount of block space to make that peg back in and out of L1 to L2.

883
01:24:50,347 --> 01:25:02,428
Just for just so sovereign roll ups, so called are basically they make the data availability for the sidechain, you know, like a nodes, a whole sidechain with a bunch of different nodes, you could set it up in different ways.

884
01:25:03,227 --> 01:25:09,947
Yeah, the the sovereign roll ups, quote, unquote, are a data availability. That's the compression. It's like the data that you need to reconstruct the node.

885
01:25:10,907 --> 01:25:24,268
The optimistic roll ups, basically, they operate kind of like lightning, where it's like, okay, they submit something on chain, if no one submits a proof to the contrary, within X amount of time, then everyone regards that as being, you know, the source of truth.

886
01:25:24,268 --> 01:25:40,428
And then validity roll ups are actually what I think one another way that Bitcoin needs to scale is validity roll ups, which you actually like, you can't post on chain, the transaction wouldn't be accepted, unless the unless it's actually a valid roll up of all the transactions.

887
01:25:40,428 --> 01:25:49,627
It's like a cryptographic way of doing that, which is more complex that the math is kind of moon math. But I guess it's getting more and more accepted. So anyways, those are the kind of like the different roll ups.

888
01:25:50,187 --> 01:26:16,988
So I thought sovereign roll ups would make a lot of sense with inscriptions, but it would take some block space. So I think, oh, you know, one small question, how would we account for transaction like future transaction fees, you know, if future transaction fees shoot up to say $100, or something like a lot of Bitcoin or say, could you end up getting stuck kind of in, in a drivechain, or would the alternative ways of getting out like, like bridges and or exchanges?

889
01:26:17,067 --> 01:26:22,748
Would that be able to perhaps facilitate exiting the drivechain, if he shot up in the future?

890
01:26:23,067 --> 01:26:45,708
I think it's worse, I think if they shoot up, like if the L1 fee rate shoots up very much, then, like, let's say it's, let's say you have $50 on the L2, and the L1 fee rate shoots up to $100, you know, whatever per transaction, you in, you don't ever want to leave.

891
01:26:45,708 --> 01:27:11,308
So it's, it's actually drivechain is probably the best in that scenario. Because in most of the time, you have some kind of like, in like enlightening you, you've got the coins are locked to one multisig output, or they're locked to, like, you know, the channel factory, which is like a whatever 10 of 10, multisig output, or whatever it is.

892
01:27:12,268 --> 01:27:24,748
And leaving would be just destroying all of your money. So like, by leaving, I mean, if you get pulled down from L2 to L1, this is now a disaster for the $50 is, is completely lost.

893
01:27:24,748 --> 01:27:48,748
So you don't want that. And but the good news is, with drivechain, you don't actually have to go back ever, you can just stay on L2, which to me is very similar. It's an analogy to how most people do not have an account at the actual Federal Reserve or at the Bank of International Settlements. You just have an account at Wells Fargo or something.

894
01:27:48,748 --> 01:28:17,748
And you never, and you never like when you're going to sleep at night, you don't think, Oh, no. Will I ever get my, you know, my federal reserves? You're like, you don't care. No one cares, because everyone's on the network that they care about. And so I think that that is a possible outcome. But yeah, if the L1 fee rates are very high, then most of lightning will not work. And I think even, well, Moon Settler is a,

895
01:28:19,748 --> 01:28:42,748
in my opinion, the sort of an authority on this particular topic. And I guess maybe Alex Kravitz, they like this feepocalypse scenario. They're very interested in that. But they kind of think like, most things will not work if if slash when that happens. And but but I think all three of us would say the drivechain actually would continue to work in that scenario.

896
01:28:43,748 --> 01:29:01,748
Because you can accumulate more and more coins, you can go from 50 to 51, 52, 53. And then maybe eventually, you could go to L1. But since it's because you're never forced to go back by like a channel close or something, you can hang out there. That's my thought.

897
01:29:01,748 --> 01:29:30,748
Okay, yeah, I think a lot of I think pretty much all Bitcoiners would be amenable to that, that concept that yeah, you just stay in the L2. Why would you go back to L1? Unless you're doing some like, significant amount of funds. So yeah, I think that's all I had. Maybe I'll just kind of leave with a personal opinion on seeing the Bitcoin space in general is realizing that lightning is not this panacea of solutions. And that in fact, it might fail under high fees. We saw the kind of inkling of that back in March and April.

898
01:29:31,748 --> 01:29:56,748
Maybe it was May, I can't I don't remember exactly now. But um, yeah, so I think there I think everyone is kind of feeling this sense of urgency that some kind of layer two does need to be developed. And maybe we should be pursuing multiple layer twos at the same time, maybe pursuing one layer two over the past six years wasn't the best solution. Maybe we should have gone multiple paths. And, you know, that way, we'd find the ones that work faster than iterating once every six years. So anyways, thanks for your time and have a good one.

899
01:29:56,748 --> 01:30:02,748
Cool, thank you. All right, Jay, thanks for your patience.

900
01:30:03,748 --> 01:30:04,748
Hey, Paul, how are you?

901
01:30:06,748 --> 01:30:07,748
I'm doing pretty well, I think.

902
01:30:08,748 --> 01:30:30,748
Yeah, I want to keep this really high level. So someone talked about polarizing on the real technical side. So I want to just give some insight as to why I think it's so polarizing. And then maybe compare it to something like Rootstock. And then like, ask you a question that's kind of leading and see if if I'm on the same page yet. How does that sound?

903
01:30:33,748 --> 01:30:34,748
Let's do it.

904
01:30:34,866 --> 01:30:40,786
it. right. So I think the reason why it's so polarizing

905
01:30:40,786 --> 01:30:46,306
is that a lot of people from the real low -level practical side

906
01:30:46,306 --> 01:30:49,986
understood Drivechains as something more substantial.

907
01:30:49,986 --> 01:30:51,946
When I say more substantial,

908
01:31:03,748 --> 01:31:27,748
You know, my old arguments and a lot of those arguments kind of hold. And, you know, so so now that now that from my perspective, you know, drivechain is not trying to do what other so called sidechains like the word sidechain is like, necessarily use POW to secure sidechain.

909
01:31:27,748 --> 01:31:44,748
However, this nuance really doesn't, you know, doesn't flow to like the general public. So everyone's thinking, oh, drivechain does everything when really, it doesn't. And so my question is, and this will see if we're on the same page.

910
01:31:44,748 --> 01:32:13,748
Okay, well, I don't I don't really know, because I'm not actually sure what I'm very familiar with classical merge mining.

911
01:32:15,748 --> 01:32:31,748
And then I don't know, I think Rootstock did something else slightly, where they, but I'm not sure about that, because they have like this other thing. And I never know how much the HSM are involved or so unfortunately, I don't exactly know they have some kind of like, extra thing.

912
01:32:31,748 --> 01:32:52,748
And why merge mining is designed to be a situation where instead of thermodynamic energy, you pay with L1 coins. And other than that, it's supposed to be mostly the same, although, as you and I know, there are slightly subtle differences.

913
01:32:53,748 --> 01:33:00,748
And there's even some advantages, tiny advantages, and some tiny disadvantages that I don't think are that important.

914
01:33:01,748 --> 01:33:24,748
Exactly. So the this, you know, the other sidechains, when people say sidechain, and they say merge mining sidechain, what they're saying is that we have some miners, some shanty 56 miners, and I'm trying not to try and stay high level some, some Bitcoin miners that actually run the sidechain and insert into their Bitcoin block, you know, the hash of the state of the sidechain.

915
01:33:24,748 --> 01:33:48,748
And what that does is that kind of secures the sidechain with POW, you know, in a sense, right? You're explicitly and you know, that opens up these kind of worms. And you're, you know, that's why that's what the issue is. And you're explicitly saying no, no, no, that's not what drivechain does, because you don't need the miners to fork to reorg the sidechain.

916
01:33:49,748 --> 01:34:16,748
So there's a difference in intent, whether it's not a difference, maybe it's the same physical action that's happening on the sidechain, but the intent is different. And I think that's really important as to why it doesn't affect the main chain. And that's kind of like, why I'm kind of now agnostic to drivechains, because, you know, it, it's kind of like, okay, now we have all these sidechains, and how are we going to secure them, and now we're using, you know, a different way of doing it.

917
01:34:16,748 --> 01:34:29,748
And it just doesn't just come for free, like it would, you know, in, in a merge mine. And that's like, I just was, I got on stage with someone mentioned polarizing, and I think that's where it's coming from.

918
01:34:30,748 --> 01:34:52,748
Really? That's interesting. Yeah, you're right. I kind of forgot about that, that you can reorg the sidechain independently of the main chain. But isn't that also kind of true in Namecoin? Can't you say I will mine a Namecoin block with merge mining? I'll mine if we're on Bitcoin block 500,000 and Namecoin block like 3000.

919
01:34:53,748 --> 01:35:05,748
Can't I mine 500,001 and a block that would be like Namecoin like 2900B or something? I think you still could. I don't know. If anyone...

920
01:35:05,748 --> 01:35:34,748
I think it would be on the Namecoin side, it would be a considered, you just would have forked off and we would have ignored you. I think, I don't remember Namecoin exactly. But that was the idea is that no, everyone's like consensus is that blocks already done and you can't reorg unless the main chains reorg. Like explicitly, you know, like the social consensus is, hey, the only way to fork Namecoin is to fork the main chain. So that's how we get the security. Like, that's the theoretical, like, that's where I was coming from.

921
01:35:35,748 --> 01:35:44,748
Is that really true for like everything counterparty, Omni, etc. related, where there is no other way to reorg it other than to reorg?

922
01:35:45,748 --> 01:35:46,748
Exactly.

923
01:35:47,748 --> 01:36:08,748
That's an interesting question. I just assumed that it was, that you could also, but I don't, because what I'm thinking of in my head, I'm remembering that Wikipedia article on the Wikipedia Bitcoin.it, where it's like the Namecoin sidechain, the Namecoin altcoins header is like this 200 byte thing that contains a Bitcoin header.

924
01:36:09,748 --> 01:36:16,748
And you could contain, you could put any, maybe, I don't know, I'll have to look, I'll look into that. I'll research that. I think that's an interesting question.

925
01:36:17,748 --> 01:36:34,748
I just assumed that you could reorg Namecoin independently of Bitcoin because you find 500,001. And because one reason is that I know for a fact, this is something that I found to be highly amusing.

926
01:36:35,748 --> 01:36:48,748
During the split between Bitcoin Cash and BTC, the hash rate oscillated with some, sometimes it was like a relative peak in BTC and sometimes a relative peak BCH and it would kind of go back and forth.

927
01:36:48,748 --> 01:36:55,748
So we had like a situation where many BTC blocks were found at once, but then many BCH.

928
01:36:56,748 --> 01:37:04,748
Well, when the BCH ones are being found, the BTC ones are not being found. And then every two weeks it would like be like switching back and forth, two weeks in quotes.

929
01:37:05,748 --> 01:37:13,748
And I remember Namecoin is skimming the top blocks from each chain and it had the most proof of work during that period.

930
01:37:14,748 --> 01:37:21,748
And I thought that was the funniest thing ever because, in part because the large blockers were insisting that proof of work would determine what Bitcoin was.

931
01:37:22,748 --> 01:37:23,748
And so that meant Namecoin was Bitcoin.

932
01:37:24,748 --> 01:37:25,748
No, I thought it was.

933
01:37:26,748 --> 01:37:33,748
So I don't know how that applies, but I think because it's only the header, so it doesn't even know what the state is, but I'm not sure.

934
01:37:34,748 --> 01:37:35,748
I will look into it.

935
01:37:37,748 --> 01:37:50,748
Anyway, cool. That would be interesting if the polarization resulted from people projecting what Namecoin does and what Rootstock planned to do in 2015 into the presence.

936
01:37:51,748 --> 01:37:56,748
Yeah, I think a lot of this polarization stems from 2014 days, to be honest.

937
01:37:57,748 --> 01:37:59,748
And back then there was actually, you know, let's even go further back.

938
01:38:00,748 --> 01:38:04,748
Back then there was actually distributed hash rate and it's a whole other world now.

939
01:38:05,748 --> 01:38:08,748
So anyway, thanks for doing this, guys.

940
01:38:09,748 --> 01:38:10,748
Thank you.

941
01:38:10,748 --> 01:38:13,748
Yeah, you're definitely right that there was a dream.

942
01:38:14,748 --> 01:38:25,748
I think this is partly this is like this percent thing that I brought up to Peter on Twitter about when Bitcoin is really small and there's only 100 miners, maybe there's only 10 miners.

943
01:38:26,748 --> 01:38:28,748
Everyone can have 10% of the hash rate.

944
01:38:29,748 --> 01:38:39,748
But then once you have 101, once the network grows and you have 101 people mining, they can't all have 1% because of just the somehow percents work.

945
01:38:40,748 --> 01:38:53,748
So so eventually the ratio of people mining, you know, to like if the network gets really, really big, then, you know, you don't maybe you don't feel quite as good.

946
01:38:53,748 --> 01:38:57,748
You feel like these other people have so much such a high percentage.

947
01:38:58,748 --> 01:39:00,748
But that's just a consequence of Bitcoin succeeding.

948
01:39:01,748 --> 01:39:02,748
It's kind of ironic.

949
01:39:03,748 --> 01:39:10,748
Anyway, I think Justin was the next to join and then JP, who has been here the whole time, raised his hand again.

950
01:39:11,748 --> 01:39:12,748
So.

951
01:39:13,748 --> 01:39:14,748
Justin.

952
01:39:14,748 --> 01:39:15,748
Yeah.

953
01:39:17,748 --> 01:39:18,748
Hey, nice to meet you.

954
01:39:19,748 --> 01:39:21,748
I had a quick easy question.

955
01:39:22,748 --> 01:39:23,748
Has the.

956
01:39:24,748 --> 01:39:27,748
The transaction fee raised.

957
01:39:29,748 --> 01:39:40,748
Or going lower or going higher over time as as a percentage of the transaction or, in other words, denominated in Satoshi's rather than dollars.

958
01:39:40,748 --> 01:39:45,748
Has that because I've searched for such a chart and I have not been able to locate it.

959
01:39:46,748 --> 01:39:49,748
Oh, I'm blanking on the name now, but there is a place that has it.

960
01:39:49,748 --> 01:39:52,748
I think it's my gosh, I'm blanking on the name.

961
01:39:52,748 --> 01:39:53,748
I was just looking at it.

962
01:39:53,748 --> 01:39:58,748
Let me see if you see my little bit more relevant.

963
01:40:04,256 --> 01:40:08,256
Rather than denominated in dollars, I'll try to find.

964
01:40:08,256 --> 01:40:11,656
Oh, no, it's not in my bookmarks.

965
01:40:11,656 --> 01:40:13,856
I have my Bitcoin bookmarks, but I don't have it.

966
01:40:13,856 --> 01:40:17,056
It was like BTC info charts or something.

967
01:40:17,056 --> 01:40:18,756
There's a place that has that exact graph.

968
01:40:18,756 --> 01:40:24,256
And you can also try blockchain.info or blockchain.com as it is now called.

969
01:40:24,256 --> 01:40:26,555
And they have charts somewhere.

970
01:40:26,555 --> 01:40:28,456
And I think you could probably find that.

971
01:40:28,456 --> 01:40:31,055
But I happen to know that that graph does exist.

972
01:40:31,856 --> 01:40:41,855
And I even put it in a slide of mine at one point when I was, I think it was TabConf, February 2019 or something, right before COVID, I think.

973
01:40:41,855 --> 01:40:50,256
But the story with pricing it in Satoshi's, I think, is a mistake.

974
01:40:50,256 --> 01:40:56,456
And it has nothing to do with wanting the dollar to succeed or fail or wanting Bitcoin to succeed or fail.

975
01:40:56,555 --> 01:41:03,656
It's just because it's like you could, the really ideal thing would be to price it into like in hamburgers or something, a purchasing power.

976
01:41:03,656 --> 01:41:07,855
You know, how many, you know, how many bottles of water or something, you know?

977
01:41:07,855 --> 01:41:10,955
Like it just wants to be a relatable unit.

978
01:41:10,955 --> 01:41:19,056
And so I think the smart thing to do is to keep it priced in US dollars or price it in hamburgers, price it in something else.

979
01:41:19,056 --> 01:41:24,855
Because what you really want to know is the purchasing power of like, what do I sacrifice?

980
01:41:24,855 --> 01:41:33,256
What is the opportunity cost of obtaining like 220 bytes of L1 block space?

981
01:41:33,256 --> 01:41:34,955
So my view is that we shouldn't do that.

982
01:41:34,955 --> 01:41:37,056
But such a chart does exist.

983
01:41:37,056 --> 01:41:38,955
I know that it does.

984
01:41:38,955 --> 01:41:44,355
Paul, what you're saying is if the price of Bitcoin drops 99%, then fees are down 99%.

985
01:41:44,355 --> 01:41:49,955
So if anyone complains about high fees, they're complaining that because Bitcoin price just went up a thousand percent.

986
01:41:49,955 --> 01:41:52,955
So now my fees went up a thousand percent, but the fees haven't, nothing changed.

987
01:41:52,955 --> 01:41:55,955
That's the problem like when you're pricing in dollars.

988
01:41:55,955 --> 01:41:58,455
No, no, no.

989
01:41:58,455 --> 01:42:10,455
Because if the price, if you want to price in, it's like if the, because if the Bitcoin price goes up by 100x, then the fees in Satoshis will tend to fall by 100x.

990
01:42:10,455 --> 01:42:12,756
No, fees won't change.

991
01:42:13,356 --> 01:42:15,356
There's a fee rate.

992
01:42:15,356 --> 01:42:16,356
The fee rate could be anything.

993
01:42:16,356 --> 01:42:18,356
It doesn't have to like be a certain number of Satoshi.

994
01:42:18,356 --> 01:42:20,356
It could be one Satoshi per transaction.

995
01:42:20,356 --> 01:42:22,356
So it can go below one Sat per Vbyte.

996
01:42:22,356 --> 01:42:27,356
It can go to like any number it wants, and it can and it will, and for a while they were free.

997
01:42:27,356 --> 01:42:35,356
So I think the, I think it's a confounding variable, the exchange rate.

998
01:42:35,356 --> 01:42:41,356
What does happen is when the exchange rate is rising enormously, like when we're in the huge bubble time.

999
01:42:41,955 --> 01:42:50,955
When it's a, you know, a laissez-les bon temps rouler, you know, where we're having a big party because we have ATH.

1000
01:42:50,955 --> 01:42:57,955
And when that's happening, no one cares about the fee because everyone's making so much money and everyone wants to get in.

1001
01:42:57,955 --> 01:43:00,955
So people are willing to pay fees during these unusual times.

1002
01:43:00,955 --> 01:43:07,955
These like, you know, which has happened like four or five times in Bitcoin's history.

1003
01:43:08,556 --> 01:43:16,556
It, that has happened, and so during those times no one cares about the fee.

1004
01:43:16,556 --> 01:43:29,556
And so, but yeah, I think what you see if you look at the fees is that they don't sustainably go above like one or two dollars per transaction.

1005
01:43:29,556 --> 01:43:33,556
They have occasionally been, for example, there was a different site.

1006
01:43:34,155 --> 01:43:41,155
And if you search, if you search my Twitter, if you search like from TruthCoin like a thousand dollars, you might find it.

1007
01:43:41,155 --> 01:43:51,155
But there is a site that explained, that chronicled the number of transactions that paid more than a certain fee in US dollar terms.

1008
01:43:51,155 --> 01:43:59,155
And many transactions paid more than a thousand dollars in fee at a certain point in Bitcoin's history.

1009
01:43:59,756 --> 01:44:05,756
And these, this is a long, it takes a little while to explain, but it involves a lot of consolidating inputs and things.

1010
01:44:06,756 --> 01:44:07,756
And so...

1011
01:44:07,756 --> 01:44:11,756
Notice those sites have to get historical price data, right?

1012
01:44:11,756 --> 01:44:14,756
And then match that to stats, and it's weird.

1013
01:44:15,756 --> 01:44:16,756
They do.

1014
01:44:16,756 --> 01:44:24,756
Yeah, but you wouldn't say like if I'm paying, let's say I'm paying, because a block space is different than a coin.

1015
01:44:25,356 --> 01:44:31,356
There's one megabyte, or four megabytes of block weight space every ten minutes.

1016
01:44:33,356 --> 01:44:34,356
So...

1017
01:44:35,356 --> 01:44:42,356
So why should how much, you know, the relative value of like a Ferrari versus a hamburger.

1018
01:44:44,356 --> 01:44:50,356
That's not going to change necessarily when, if we switch from US dollar to Bitcoin.

1019
01:44:50,956 --> 01:44:56,956
So why would the ratio of block space necessarily change by the exact same factor?

1020
01:44:57,956 --> 01:45:02,956
If you switch from, if we all switch from US dollar to BTC, or the whole world does.

1021
01:45:05,956 --> 01:45:11,956
It's not, you wouldn't, that changes the relative value of BTC, but it does not necessarily...

1022
01:45:12,956 --> 01:45:16,956
Well obviously in that scenario it would increase the demand for block space, but that's kind of a different thing.

1023
01:45:17,555 --> 01:45:21,555
If we switched over, but people made the same number, same quantity of Bitcoin transactions.

1024
01:45:22,555 --> 01:45:23,555
You know what I mean?

1025
01:45:23,555 --> 01:45:31,555
Like we have hyper-Bitcoinization, but the same number of L1 transactions versus the same number of Ferraris are produced each year and purchased.

1026
01:45:32,555 --> 01:45:39,555
So it's only the supply and demand for the transactions that would change the price of block space.

1027
01:45:40,555 --> 01:45:46,555
And it's the supply and demand for US dollar versus Bitcoin that would change that price.

1028
01:45:47,555 --> 01:46:03,555
And conceivably, I can see a future where, for example, in the news recently I saw Deutsche Bank is going to start allowing customers to store Bitcoin directly, natively at their banks.

1029
01:46:04,155 --> 01:46:11,155
Conceivably you can imagine a future where you buy your Bitcoin from somewhere.

1030
01:46:12,155 --> 01:46:17,155
It never actually touches the blockchain, but it's protected by the law.

1031
01:46:18,155 --> 01:46:24,155
And the law says that you now have a note, an actual convertible note.

1032
01:46:25,155 --> 01:46:26,155
It's at the bank.

1033
01:46:26,155 --> 01:46:28,155
Absolutely, I mean how Finney wrote about it.

1034
01:46:28,155 --> 01:46:32,155
You can store it, spend it, without even touching the blockchain.

1035
01:46:32,756 --> 01:46:38,756
Yeah, how Finney wrote about, he has a post on Bitcoin Talk that is called Bitcoin Banks, I believe.

1036
01:46:38,756 --> 01:46:45,756
He says, well, maybe Bitcoin is high-powered money and regular people won't even realize that they use Bitcoin.

1037
01:46:45,756 --> 01:46:47,756
So a lot of people have this idea in mind.

1038
01:46:47,756 --> 01:46:48,756
I think that's great.

1039
01:46:48,756 --> 01:46:50,756
You know, obviously, I think that's good.

1040
01:46:50,756 --> 01:46:54,756
If that happens, I'll obviously be a very happy Bitcoiner.

1041
01:46:55,356 --> 01:47:02,356
I think we should continue to build out, you know, tech so that regular people could use it if they wanted to.

1042
01:47:02,356 --> 01:47:04,356
But I think that would be great.

1043
01:47:04,356 --> 01:47:06,356
I would obviously be very happy about that outcome.

1044
01:47:06,356 --> 01:47:08,356
I'm kind of a little skeptic.

1045
01:47:08,356 --> 01:47:10,356
I mean, I think it was a good idea.

1046
01:47:11,356 --> 01:47:20,356
I don't think, back when Hal Finney wrote that, I don't think people imagined that there would be so many altcoins and so much competitive pressure.

1047
01:47:20,956 --> 01:47:27,956
And so many people pushing the envelope in every different direction to try to attract users.

1048
01:47:30,956 --> 01:47:36,956
But yeah, I'm going to remember what that site is in a second.

1049
01:47:36,956 --> 01:47:38,956
And then I'll tell you where you can find that graph.

1050
01:47:38,956 --> 01:47:47,956
And conceivably, you know, the flip side of that devil's advocate is that people in places where there's no strong banking laws

1051
01:47:48,555 --> 01:47:55,555
and little trust in the banks will just have to use either their own lightning or layer one.

1052
01:48:01,555 --> 01:48:03,555
It's not BitInfoCharts. That's not what I was thinking of.

1053
01:48:03,555 --> 01:48:05,555
But BitInfoCharts probably also has it.

1054
01:48:06,555 --> 01:48:08,555
I don't remember the one I was thinking of.

1055
01:48:10,555 --> 01:48:12,555
Thanks. I'll find it.

1056
01:48:13,155 --> 01:48:17,155
But I think BitInfoCharts probably does have it also, because it has a lot of charts.

1057
01:48:18,155 --> 01:48:20,155
Is it fork.lol?

1058
01:48:21,155 --> 01:48:24,155
No, fork.lol is good, but maybe it was fork.lol.

1059
01:48:24,155 --> 01:48:26,155
No, I'm thinking of the one with, it's like blue.

1060
01:48:26,155 --> 01:48:30,155
It's like white background with like blue charts and like light blue text.

1061
01:48:30,756 --> 01:48:32,756
Oh, well.

1062
01:48:32,756 --> 01:48:34,756
Anyway, yes, we have more hands.

1063
01:48:34,756 --> 01:48:36,756
Body.

1064
01:48:36,756 --> 01:48:38,756
I suppose.

1065
01:48:38,756 --> 01:48:40,756
Hey, I just had one question while Jay was talking.

1066
01:48:40,756 --> 01:48:46,756
So in Lightning, you can't really have a sovereign LN channel without a main chain transaction

1067
01:48:46,756 --> 01:48:50,756
because you need the ability to have a sovereign LN channel.

1068
01:48:50,756 --> 01:48:54,756
And you can't really have a sovereign LN channel without a main chain transaction.

1069
01:48:55,355 --> 01:48:59,355
In Lightning, you can't really have a sovereign LN channel without a main chain transaction

1070
01:48:59,355 --> 01:49:01,355
because you need the ability to settle on chain.

1071
01:49:01,355 --> 01:49:05,355
Could you hypothetically receive a drivechain coin directly

1072
01:49:05,355 --> 01:49:09,355
while retaining the ability to settle back onto main chain?

1073
01:49:10,355 --> 01:49:12,355
Yeah, it works very differently.

1074
01:49:12,355 --> 01:49:16,355
This is a big difference between drivechain and the Lightning Network.

1075
01:49:16,355 --> 01:49:20,355
In the Lightning Network, you have to start, someone has to start on L1.

1076
01:49:20,355 --> 01:49:22,355
Someone like your channel counterpart.

1077
01:49:22,956 --> 01:49:26,956
It's a multisig output that you own half of on L1.

1078
01:49:26,956 --> 01:49:29,956
And if you don't have that, you're not on the Lightning Network.

1079
01:49:29,956 --> 01:49:31,956
But in drivechain, it works differently.

1080
01:49:33,956 --> 01:49:40,956
You can just receive coins on L2 because no one, everyone has partial ownership of the same single UTXO.

1081
01:49:40,956 --> 01:49:44,956
It's like a shared UTXO covenant sort of.

1082
01:49:44,956 --> 01:49:48,956
And so there's this one UTXO on L1.

1083
01:49:49,555 --> 01:49:55,555
So what would happen in the extreme case would be a very wealthy person.

1084
01:49:55,555 --> 01:50:02,555
They would make one transaction on L1 to move the coins from L1 to L2.

1085
01:50:03,555 --> 01:50:07,555
They'd move like 10,000 coins over and then they onboard people over there.

1086
01:50:08,555 --> 01:50:12,555
And everyone's sharing the same UTXO on L1.

1087
01:50:13,156 --> 01:50:18,156
And it's true that when you sacrifice with this is that you cannot,

1088
01:50:18,156 --> 01:50:25,156
you don't have the ability to force yourself to get a refund on L1.

1089
01:50:25,156 --> 01:50:29,156
But you see that is exactly the thing that is actually a disadvantage.

1090
01:50:29,156 --> 01:50:32,156
Especially if the L1 fee rates rise.

1091
01:50:32,156 --> 01:50:38,156
But even when it's not, the upkeep and the overhead required to make that happen

1092
01:50:38,156 --> 01:50:42,156
actually make it unusable when the fee rates are too high.

1093
01:50:42,756 --> 01:50:48,756
And that means the whole thing is actually defeated when the fee rates are too high.

1094
01:50:48,756 --> 01:50:50,756
Versus with Drivechain, it actually doesn't matter.

1095
01:50:50,756 --> 01:50:54,756
Since it doesn't crucially rely on that and it relies on a different thing,

1096
01:50:54,756 --> 01:50:59,756
which is the fees, the merge mining fees and the slow withdrawal.

1097
01:50:59,756 --> 01:51:01,756
Since it relies on a completely different system,

1098
01:51:01,756 --> 01:51:08,756
it would not fall apart when the L1 fee rates rise or when there's any kind of L1 congestion.

1099
01:51:09,355 --> 01:51:12,355
So it's a big difference. It's very different.

1100
01:51:15,355 --> 01:51:17,355
It's funny because when I first came up with the idea,

1101
01:51:17,355 --> 01:51:19,355
I thought that was like a disadvantage.

1102
01:51:19,355 --> 01:51:21,355
And then I would meet with all these people, our technical people,

1103
01:51:21,355 --> 01:51:24,355
and they would say, you have to have what I think they call a unilateral exit.

1104
01:51:24,355 --> 01:51:28,355
You have to have a way if the sidechain stops for everyone to get their money out.

1105
01:51:28,355 --> 01:51:31,355
And I was like, OK, maybe I could do it like this.

1106
01:51:31,355 --> 01:51:32,355
But how do I know?

1107
01:51:32,355 --> 01:51:35,355
And then L1 isn't going to know, like, what is enforced?

1108
01:51:35,355 --> 01:51:39,355
Like, how does L1 know that this is what the unilateral exit should be?

1109
01:51:40,355 --> 01:51:42,355
But now I think that is a mistake.

1110
01:51:42,355 --> 01:51:47,355
And I think that actually what you should do is not do that

1111
01:51:47,355 --> 01:51:51,355
because trying to enforce that actually causes it to stop.

1112
01:51:51,355 --> 01:51:55,355
The whole thing just kind of stopped working is my guess.

1113
01:51:55,355 --> 01:51:57,355
It's actually better not to do that.

1114
01:52:06,355 --> 01:52:08,355
So I think...

1115
01:52:09,355 --> 01:52:11,355
Yes, we have a...

1116
01:52:11,355 --> 01:52:16,355
JP, you've re-raised your hand first, but we do have a new person.

1117
01:52:16,355 --> 01:52:18,355
SarahT...

1118
01:52:18,355 --> 01:52:20,355
So...

1119
01:52:22,355 --> 01:52:24,355
I guess, why don't we go with Sarah first.

1120
01:52:24,355 --> 01:52:25,355
Hi.

1121
01:52:25,355 --> 01:52:26,355
Hi.

1122
01:52:26,355 --> 01:52:27,355
I, like...

1123
01:52:28,355 --> 01:52:31,355
I don't know a lot about drivechains.

1124
01:52:31,355 --> 01:52:33,355
I'm fairly new to this.

1125
01:52:33,355 --> 01:52:37,355
Like, I'm not new to Bitcoin, but I'm new to the whole drivetrain thing.

1126
01:52:38,355 --> 01:52:39,355
And...

1127
01:52:40,355 --> 01:52:42,355
Theoretically, I'm for it.

1128
01:52:42,355 --> 01:52:47,355
I think if we could drag a bunch of the shitcoiners into the Bitcoin sphere,

1129
01:52:47,355 --> 01:52:50,355
that would be great for Bitcoin adoption.

1130
01:52:50,355 --> 01:52:52,355
However, my concern...

1131
01:52:53,355 --> 01:52:59,355
is how does this affect the base chain?

1132
01:53:03,355 --> 01:53:05,355
Like, specifically for me,

1133
01:53:05,355 --> 01:53:08,355
I don't necessarily need a whole bunch of functionality with my money.

1134
01:53:08,355 --> 01:53:10,355
I'm a pretty simple person.

1135
01:53:11,355 --> 01:53:12,355
And...

1136
01:53:13,355 --> 01:53:17,355
My concern is that if we start adding base drivechains,

1137
01:53:17,355 --> 01:53:19,355
it's going to drive up the fee cost

1138
01:53:19,355 --> 01:53:22,355
and create a bunch of congestion on the base layer.

1139
01:53:25,355 --> 01:53:27,355
And I guess my question is how...

1140
01:53:27,355 --> 01:53:30,355
How does drivechain mitigate that?

1141
01:53:34,355 --> 01:53:36,355
Yeah, it's designed to...

1142
01:53:38,355 --> 01:53:43,355
utterly minimize the impact on the base chain in many different ways.

1143
01:53:43,355 --> 01:53:45,355
So, for a start,

1144
01:53:45,355 --> 01:53:50,355
layer one is never going to look at any of the sidechain software

1145
01:53:50,355 --> 01:53:53,355
or any of the sidechain blocks or any of their transactions at all.

1146
01:53:54,355 --> 01:53:57,355
And in fact, BIP300 itself is an optional soft fork,

1147
01:53:57,355 --> 01:54:02,355
so you don't even actually need to upgrade your full node

1148
01:54:02,355 --> 01:54:05,355
to do anything at all, necessarily.

1149
01:54:05,355 --> 01:54:07,355
Even if you wanted to...

1150
01:54:07,355 --> 01:54:09,355
It depends on what wallet you would have.

1151
01:54:09,355 --> 01:54:11,355
It's theoretically possible to use the feature

1152
01:54:11,355 --> 01:54:15,355
even if you do not run a node that supports BIP300 or even any node.

1153
01:54:15,355 --> 01:54:21,355
So, on L1, it is just a counter that is counting to 13,000 over and over again,

1154
01:54:21,355 --> 01:54:29,355
which is these capsules that start off and move slowly from L2 to L1.

1155
01:54:29,355 --> 01:54:31,355
But of course, what really is just happening

1156
01:54:31,355 --> 01:54:33,355
is they're in an L1 coinbase,

1157
01:54:33,355 --> 01:54:38,355
and they move slowly from one L1 coinbase to finality,

1158
01:54:38,355 --> 01:54:43,355
and they can be included on the L1 blockchain.

1159
01:54:43,355 --> 01:54:49,355
So, you're only tracking the miners

1160
01:54:49,355 --> 01:54:54,355
who have decided to bless a certain withdrawal,

1161
01:54:54,355 --> 01:54:56,355
which is just one hash.

1162
01:54:56,355 --> 01:55:00,355
So, it's very, very, very, very, very small on L1.

1163
01:55:00,355 --> 01:55:03,355
And so, if you don't want any of the features, you don't have to use them.

1164
01:55:03,355 --> 01:55:08,355
And in fact, the L1 network doesn't and can't know anything about them at all.

1165
01:55:08,355 --> 01:55:13,355
It doesn't even perceive that they exist or know what they are.

1166
01:55:13,355 --> 01:55:15,355
It doesn't know, like, maybe how many slots...

1167
01:55:15,355 --> 01:55:19,355
There's 256 sidechain slots and how much money is in each of those.

1168
01:55:19,355 --> 01:55:23,355
And there's, like, the slots have little labels, but that's it.

1169
01:55:23,355 --> 01:55:25,355
So, there's...

1170
01:55:25,355 --> 01:55:31,355
So, from what I understand, there's going to be one L1 transaction per sidechain.

1171
01:55:31,355 --> 01:55:34,355
Is that one transaction per block?

1172
01:55:34,355 --> 01:55:38,355
Or is that one transaction, period?

1173
01:55:38,355 --> 01:55:40,355
Well, it's...

1174
01:55:40,355 --> 01:55:43,355
For the blind-merge mining, it is one transaction per block,

1175
01:55:43,355 --> 01:55:45,355
which is just, like, a few bytes,

1176
01:55:45,355 --> 01:55:48,355
which is about one...

1177
01:55:48,355 --> 01:55:53,355
not quite, maybe, like, one 100,000th the size of the block,

1178
01:55:53,355 --> 01:55:54,355
something like that.

1179
01:55:54,355 --> 01:55:56,355
So, very, very small.

1180
01:55:56,355 --> 01:56:00,355
Much less than, you know, a tenth of a percent.

1181
01:56:00,355 --> 01:56:01,355
Very, very, very small.

1182
01:56:01,355 --> 01:56:03,355
And that's for the merge mining.

1183
01:56:03,355 --> 01:56:04,355
And then for the withdrawal...

1184
01:56:04,355 --> 01:56:08,355
The H deposit is an L1 transaction.

1185
01:56:08,355 --> 01:56:12,355
But as we've discussed already, that could be one rich person total.

1186
01:56:12,355 --> 01:56:14,355
It could only be one deposit ever, maybe.

1187
01:56:14,355 --> 01:56:15,355
It depends.

1188
01:56:15,355 --> 01:56:16,355
Or anyone can deposit, but...

1189
01:56:16,355 --> 01:56:24,355
And then the withdrawals are one L1 Coinbase transaction to create the withdrawal.

1190
01:56:24,355 --> 01:56:33,355
And then one each block to adjust the vote, the vector of votes.

1191
01:56:33,355 --> 01:56:35,355
And those are both pretty small also.

1192
01:56:35,355 --> 01:56:38,355
And then at the end, the withdrawal is a real L1 transaction.

1193
01:56:38,355 --> 01:56:40,355
So, it adds up to, like, a few.

1194
01:56:40,355 --> 01:56:43,355
But it's a constant amount.

1195
01:56:43,355 --> 01:56:46,355
And so, it doesn't matter how much activity is happening on the sidechain.

1196
01:56:46,355 --> 01:56:47,355
It will never be...

1197
01:56:47,355 --> 01:56:51,355
It doesn't grow to L1 byte usage.

1198
01:56:51,355 --> 01:56:56,355
And it's one single, like, each...

1199
01:56:56,355 --> 01:57:00,355
To join the Lightning Network is one transaction each, though.

1200
01:57:00,355 --> 01:57:06,355
It will probably be smaller, even in the wildly popular drivechain future,

1201
01:57:06,355 --> 01:57:12,355
probably much smaller on-chain footprint than Lightning Network uses today on L1.

1202
01:57:12,355 --> 01:57:14,355
So, if I have...

1203
01:57:14,355 --> 01:57:16,355
Like, I have Lightning Fats that I didn't...

1204
01:57:16,355 --> 01:57:20,355
I don't have a channel open, but I received them through Lightning.

1205
01:57:20,355 --> 01:57:26,355
And through a custodial wallet, I can take those off-chain through an on-chain transaction,

1206
01:57:26,355 --> 01:57:34,355
take them on-chain into my own custody through an on-chain transaction.

1207
01:57:34,355 --> 01:57:40,355
And how does that work with drivechain?

1208
01:57:40,355 --> 01:57:45,355
It would work exactly the same way, except instead of a custodial wallet,

1209
01:57:45,355 --> 01:57:50,355
you would probably be able to have self-custody on L2.

1210
01:57:50,355 --> 01:57:55,355
And then it would be the same thing where you would want to withdraw.

1211
01:57:55,355 --> 01:58:00,355
You would either use the three-month system or you could, you know,

1212
01:58:00,355 --> 01:58:04,355
similar to what you're doing with the custodial wallet, you could say,

1213
01:58:04,355 --> 01:58:06,355
I'd like to be paid on L1.

1214
01:58:06,355 --> 01:58:09,355
Someone makes the L1 transaction.

1215
01:58:09,355 --> 01:58:13,355
And so, you don't have to use any of the new functionality that you don't want,

1216
01:58:13,355 --> 01:58:16,355
and the functionality moves to a different network.

1217
01:58:16,355 --> 01:58:20,355
So, even though it does increase fee revenue for miners,

1218
01:58:20,355 --> 01:58:24,355
it should not drive up fee rates on L1.

1219
01:58:24,355 --> 01:58:27,355
It's just like an accounting transaction, one single accounting transaction,

1220
01:58:27,355 --> 01:58:31,355
the Buy Merge Mining one, to move them over.

1221
01:58:31,355 --> 01:58:32,355
So, yeah.

1222
01:58:33,355 --> 01:58:44,355
Where is the incentive for drivechains to include an abnormally large transaction fee per block?

1223
01:58:44,355 --> 01:58:49,355
And where does the large transaction fees come from?

1224
01:58:49,355 --> 01:58:51,355
The L2 network, each user there,

1225
01:58:51,355 --> 01:58:55,355
so there's like 10 million users of some drivechain somewhere,

1226
01:58:55,355 --> 01:58:58,355
and they each pay whatever, 10 cents,

1227
01:58:58,355 --> 01:59:03,355
so that's a million dollars in a block on L2.

1228
01:59:03,355 --> 01:59:09,355
There is a million-dollar transaction fee paid to the L2 Coinbase,

1229
01:59:09,355 --> 01:59:15,355
of which that person, who is an L2 user,

1230
01:59:15,355 --> 01:59:17,355
that person will go on L1 and say, okay, I'll pay.

1231
01:59:17,355 --> 01:59:23,355
Here's a $995,000 transaction fee.

1232
01:59:23,355 --> 01:59:24,355
They pay that on L1.

1233
01:59:24,355 --> 01:59:28,355
So, that's just one transaction on L1 that has an abnormally high fee.

1234
01:59:28,355 --> 01:59:33,355
But it won't even really be abnormally high, because it would be happening every block.

1235
01:59:33,355 --> 01:59:34,355
So, it would be just a high fee.

1236
01:59:34,355 --> 01:59:38,355
Why would the L2, or why would the drivechain, or why would the sidechain operator,

1237
01:59:38,355 --> 01:59:43,355
pay that large transaction fee if they could get away with the smaller one?

1238
01:59:43,355 --> 01:59:45,355
Because they can't.

1239
01:59:45,355 --> 01:59:51,355
They're bidding on who's, they make the payment conditional on the L1 miner,

1240
01:59:52,355 --> 01:59:58,355
including kind of an anchor in L1 that finds the L2 block.

1241
01:59:58,355 --> 02:00:02,355
So, they only get their million dollars on L2.

1242
02:00:03,941 --> 02:00:06,501
If the miner includes their thing on L1,

1243
02:00:06,501 --> 02:00:07,781
the little cash code.

1244
02:00:08,701 --> 02:00:12,421
So, it's a competitive market where every single sidechain

1245
02:00:12,421 --> 02:00:14,001
full node would bid.

1246
02:00:15,101 --> 02:00:20,101
And so, they bid like 991,000, 991.2, 993,000.

1247
02:00:21,181 --> 02:00:24,101
So, they'd bid up, and all the bids would be guarded

1248
02:00:24,101 --> 02:00:26,820
for people who didn't win, and then whoever bid the most,

1249
02:00:26,820 --> 02:00:27,660
they would win.

1250
02:00:27,660 --> 02:00:32,061
They net a little $5,000 for themselves for free,

1251
02:00:32,101 --> 02:00:36,560
or for the inconvenience of collecting on L2 instead of L1.

1252
02:00:37,941 --> 02:00:42,941
The miner gets 995,000, the 10 million users

1253
02:00:43,740 --> 02:00:46,380
pay a 10 cent transaction fee.

1254
02:00:46,380 --> 02:00:49,580
The L2 coinbase collects it,

1255
02:00:49,580 --> 02:00:52,981
and then we move on to the next block.

1256
02:00:52,981 --> 02:00:56,461
So, what happens if a fair rope miner

1257
02:00:56,461 --> 02:01:01,461
who doesn't want drivechain decided not to include those

1258
02:01:01,740 --> 02:01:06,700
in their block, and what would happen to the sidechain

1259
02:01:06,700 --> 02:01:10,820
if that transaction was not included in every single block?

1260
02:01:13,381 --> 02:01:15,220
If they don't include it in a block,

1261
02:01:15,220 --> 02:01:17,621
it's as if a block just wasn't found,

1262
02:01:17,621 --> 02:01:18,981
even though it could have been.

1263
02:01:18,981 --> 02:01:20,741
So, it's like a missed opportunity

1264
02:01:20,741 --> 02:01:21,860
to find a sidechain block.

1265
02:01:21,860 --> 02:01:26,180
The sidechain just stays at whatever block height it was,

1266
02:01:26,180 --> 02:01:29,061
and the miners miss out on the fee.

1267
02:01:29,061 --> 02:01:31,140
And probably, it depends on the fee dynamics

1268
02:01:31,860 --> 02:01:32,981
of the sidechain, but you would imagine

1269
02:01:32,981 --> 02:01:36,021
that the fee pressure would continue to rise

1270
02:01:36,021 --> 02:01:38,421
on the sidechain, so that one million number would go up.

1271
02:01:38,421 --> 02:01:40,061
It is theoretically possible it could go up

1272
02:01:40,061 --> 02:01:42,261
to two million dollars, for example.

1273
02:01:42,261 --> 02:01:44,981
Or some other shape, I guess technically,

1274
02:01:44,981 --> 02:01:46,180
there could be nonlinearities,

1275
02:01:46,180 --> 02:01:49,381
so it could be any amount of money, really.

1276
02:01:49,381 --> 02:01:51,301
But it would probably go up,

1277
02:01:51,301 --> 02:01:54,220
and as the blocks are not found,

1278
02:01:54,220 --> 02:01:57,261
then it would just be, you would wait

1279
02:01:57,261 --> 02:01:58,860
until there was a miner who wanted

1280
02:01:58,860 --> 02:02:02,061
to collect two million dollars,

1281
02:02:02,061 --> 02:02:03,941
and then they would mine the block,

1282
02:02:03,941 --> 02:02:06,540
and then the sidechain would move to its next block.

1283
02:02:10,460 --> 02:02:14,741
So, then how is this gonna negatively affect Bitcoin?

1284
02:02:14,741 --> 02:02:16,700
There has to be a trade-off somewhere.

1285
02:02:18,620 --> 02:02:19,980
I don't really think there is.

1286
02:02:19,980 --> 02:02:22,741
I think it's just, the trade-off would be

1287
02:02:22,741 --> 02:02:24,461
that maybe this idea isn't popular,

1288
02:02:24,461 --> 02:02:27,941
and that I've wasted everyone's time by bringing it up.

1289
02:02:27,941 --> 02:02:30,860
But I don't see, I guess if you,

1290
02:02:31,821 --> 02:02:35,980
in a way, the trade-off is that the,

1291
02:02:35,980 --> 02:02:37,661
I mean, I really don't see any trade-off,

1292
02:02:37,661 --> 02:02:38,980
but if you wanted to just make one up,

1293
02:02:38,980 --> 02:02:41,101
you would say something like,

1294
02:02:41,101 --> 02:02:45,580
the miners play a slightly different role

1295
02:02:45,580 --> 02:02:47,661
than they did before.

1296
02:02:47,661 --> 02:02:48,980
But I don't actually think that's true,

1297
02:02:48,980 --> 02:02:52,340
because miners have always done various things,

1298
02:02:52,340 --> 02:02:53,580
like to help the network,

1299
02:02:53,580 --> 02:02:57,420
such as when the miners activated soft forks

1300
02:02:58,021 --> 02:03:01,461
in the past, and when they downgraded after a big fix,

1301
02:03:01,461 --> 02:03:04,261
and they just found that one guy sent too high a fee,

1302
02:03:04,261 --> 02:03:05,381
and they returned it to him.

1303
02:03:05,381 --> 02:03:07,941
So, they've always been doing this or that.

1304
02:03:07,941 --> 02:03:10,461
And they sponsor people, miners sponsor people,

1305
02:03:10,461 --> 02:03:15,461
like the brilliant and virtuous scholar Pierre Richard,

1306
02:03:15,741 --> 02:03:17,420
who knows everything.

1307
02:03:17,420 --> 02:03:18,980
They pay him for some reason,

1308
02:03:18,980 --> 02:03:23,980
and so they always do this or that.

1309
02:03:24,461 --> 02:03:26,181
And so, to me, it's not even,

1310
02:03:26,181 --> 02:03:27,700
it doesn't even register as a change.

1311
02:03:27,700 --> 02:03:30,500
I don't actually see any downside to attempting this,

1312
02:03:30,500 --> 02:03:33,821
especially given that we've tried so many other things

1313
02:03:33,821 --> 02:03:35,140
that haven't worked at all.

1314
02:03:35,140 --> 02:03:39,381
Yeah, and I, like ARK and Liquid,

1315
02:03:39,381 --> 02:03:42,780
and even Sentiments, I've kind of shied away from them,

1316
02:03:42,780 --> 02:03:46,340
just because of the custodial nature of what they are.

1317
02:03:48,860 --> 02:03:49,700
And-

1318
02:03:49,700 --> 02:03:51,580
Yeah, my view is that,

1319
02:03:51,580 --> 02:03:55,821
with drivetrain is slightly more miner custody, I suppose,

1320
02:03:56,500 --> 02:03:58,741
but my view is really that the miners,

1321
02:03:58,741 --> 02:04:03,741
at the end of the day, we all have miner custody anyway.

1322
02:04:03,821 --> 02:04:06,340
And actually, the long-run future of Bitcoin

1323
02:04:06,340 --> 02:04:09,060
is gonna be a fee-only blockchain.

1324
02:04:09,060 --> 02:04:12,780
And miners can already steal from the Lightning Network

1325
02:04:12,780 --> 02:04:15,101
by censoring the justice transaction.

1326
02:04:15,101 --> 02:04:19,381
So, miners can also hold various UTXOs hostage

1327
02:04:19,381 --> 02:04:20,500
or hold Liquid hostage.

1328
02:04:20,500 --> 02:04:21,981
So, to me, I don't even really see that

1329
02:04:21,981 --> 02:04:22,981
as a big difference.

1330
02:04:22,981 --> 02:04:24,261
I kind of think it's not good.

1331
02:04:24,261 --> 02:04:25,821
But I guess if we were trying to find it,

1332
02:04:25,821 --> 02:04:30,620
they'd say it encourages people to use this scheme

1333
02:04:30,620 --> 02:04:33,981
where the miners could theoretically steal from them.

1334
02:04:33,981 --> 02:04:35,460
But again, the miners are, you know,

1335
02:04:35,460 --> 02:04:38,941
like they can already mess up the...

1336
02:04:38,941 --> 02:04:41,701
Maybe, I guess, the downside would be that one day

1337
02:04:41,701 --> 02:04:44,900
someone would invent something even better,

1338
02:04:46,101 --> 02:04:48,861
ZK-SNARK sidechain or something.

1339
02:04:48,861 --> 02:04:50,101
I don't even think that would be better.

1340
02:04:50,101 --> 02:04:52,740
And even if it was, the miners can hold hostage

1341
02:04:52,740 --> 02:04:57,460
the ZK-proof part anyway and can't literally steal,

1342
02:04:57,460 --> 02:04:58,861
but they could hold something hostage

1343
02:04:58,861 --> 02:05:01,220
and like demand a cut.

1344
02:05:01,220 --> 02:05:02,821
Or one thing that miners could always do

1345
02:05:02,821 --> 02:05:04,861
is they could just say,

1346
02:05:04,861 --> 02:05:09,261
we're not going to honor any system

1347
02:05:09,261 --> 02:05:13,340
other than a drivechain-related system.

1348
02:05:13,340 --> 02:05:14,740
So, they would just censor everything.

1349
02:05:14,740 --> 02:05:19,740
Censor Lightning Network, censor Liquid, censor whatever.

1350
02:05:20,141 --> 02:05:21,500
And just say that, you know,

1351
02:05:21,500 --> 02:05:22,861
I don't think they would do any of that,

1352
02:05:22,861 --> 02:05:24,381
but I just think...

1353
02:05:24,381 --> 02:05:27,180
I don't really see a significant downside

1354
02:05:27,180 --> 02:05:28,220
to at least trying this

1355
02:05:28,220 --> 02:05:30,780
because the reduction in security

1356
02:05:30,780 --> 02:05:34,981
is only born by the user who chooses

1357
02:05:34,981 --> 02:05:37,981
to deposit to the drivechain.

1358
02:05:40,701 --> 02:05:45,060
So, it's like a totally consensual idea.

1359
02:05:45,060 --> 02:05:45,900
And it's kind of like,

1360
02:05:45,900 --> 02:05:48,060
if they think it's in their best interests,

1361
02:05:48,060 --> 02:05:51,101
who is anyone else to end in their way?

1362
02:05:52,500 --> 02:05:56,500
Well, I agree in theory, Bitcoin is for everyone

1363
02:05:56,500 --> 02:06:00,900
and Bitcoin was designed to be broken, basically.

1364
02:06:00,900 --> 02:06:03,941
It was designed for people to try to break Bitcoin.

1365
02:06:03,941 --> 02:06:05,941
And I don't...

1366
02:06:05,941 --> 02:06:07,821
I guess my main concern is that

1367
02:06:07,821 --> 02:06:09,780
it'll congest the base chain

1368
02:06:09,780 --> 02:06:14,060
and it'll drive transaction speeds up prematurely.

1369
02:06:15,180 --> 02:06:18,381
Yeah, but it won't because the activity

1370
02:06:18,900 --> 02:06:22,661
is moved off of the L1 chain into a different chain.

1371
02:06:22,661 --> 02:06:25,340
So, you have one person deposit the coins at the beginning

1372
02:06:25,340 --> 02:06:30,101
and then after that, all the usage does not...

1373
02:06:31,300 --> 02:06:32,861
It doesn't happen on L1.

1374
02:06:32,861 --> 02:06:34,541
It's true that there's a few, as I said,

1375
02:06:34,541 --> 02:06:38,020
there's a few L1 transactions that must be made

1376
02:06:38,020 --> 02:06:40,220
to connect the tissue.

1377
02:06:40,220 --> 02:06:43,261
But this is a very small and constant amount.

1378
02:06:43,261 --> 02:06:45,220
It doesn't matter if the sidechain has a million users

1379
02:06:45,220 --> 02:06:47,060
or a billion users.

1380
02:06:48,020 --> 02:06:51,381
It's a constant amount of L1 overhead.

1381
02:06:51,381 --> 02:06:54,900
So, the L1 overhead per user is always shrinking.

1382
02:06:56,060 --> 02:06:57,941
So, then what, I guess,

1383
02:06:59,141 --> 02:07:03,780
what uses for drivechain are there

1384
02:07:04,981 --> 02:07:07,740
other than just transferring value

1385
02:07:07,740 --> 02:07:09,300
from one person to another?

1386
02:07:10,941 --> 02:07:13,060
What you can use is any...

1387
02:07:13,060 --> 02:07:14,740
You can write any software you want.

1388
02:07:14,740 --> 02:07:18,740
So, we have copied, for example,

1389
02:07:18,740 --> 02:07:21,620
Zcash and Ethereum already.

1390
02:07:21,620 --> 02:07:25,180
And so, Zcash gives you more private transactions

1391
02:07:25,180 --> 02:07:28,060
and Ethereum lets you do whatever it is

1392
02:07:28,060 --> 02:07:28,900
they're doing over there.

1393
02:07:28,900 --> 02:07:31,060
They seem to be having a lot of fun.

1394
02:07:31,060 --> 02:07:33,220
I don't always understand what they're doing,

1395
02:07:33,220 --> 02:07:36,981
but they seem to be doing a lot of something.

1396
02:07:36,981 --> 02:07:39,661
And I have some ideas myself

1397
02:07:39,661 --> 02:07:41,300
of my prediction market projects.

1398
02:07:41,300 --> 02:07:44,821
You can go to bitcoinhivemind.com and read about that.

1399
02:07:45,861 --> 02:07:47,661
I think Namecoin is a great idea.

1400
02:07:47,661 --> 02:07:51,460
That also was, Satoshi co-worked on

1401
02:07:51,460 --> 02:07:53,661
when he invented merge mining.

1402
02:07:53,661 --> 02:07:55,300
I think Namecoin is a great idea.

1403
02:07:56,421 --> 02:07:57,701
So, I think, actually, a lot of these ideas

1404
02:07:57,701 --> 02:08:01,180
have enormous potential, like really, really big.

1405
02:08:01,180 --> 02:08:02,020
Yeah, but what I...

1406
02:08:02,020 --> 02:08:04,141
But the point is, it's an open system.

1407
02:08:04,141 --> 02:08:05,020
It's an open system.

1408
02:08:05,020 --> 02:08:07,101
So, any piece of software that someone wants to write,

1409
02:08:07,101 --> 02:08:08,500
they could write.

1410
02:08:08,541 --> 02:08:13,541
Right, but at its core, money is just a tool

1411
02:08:13,821 --> 02:08:18,821
that humans use to equitably trade value with one another.

1412
02:08:21,821 --> 02:08:24,180
Yeah, I think Richard Dawkins clearly...

1413
02:08:24,180 --> 02:08:27,740
The need for more functionality than that.

1414
02:08:27,740 --> 02:08:32,740
Bitcoin already has all the functionality it needs.

1415
02:08:33,541 --> 02:08:37,141
Well, I think it's kind of like, as you said,

1416
02:08:37,141 --> 02:08:38,540
it could help adoption.

1417
02:08:38,540 --> 02:08:42,381
So, you don't want anyone to be turned away.

1418
02:08:42,381 --> 02:08:43,221
You know what I mean?

1419
02:08:43,221 --> 02:08:44,540
It's kind of like, you have a book,

1420
02:08:44,540 --> 02:08:47,060
like we have the Bible, the written Bible,

1421
02:08:47,060 --> 02:08:49,221
but then it's kind of like the printing press.

1422
02:08:49,221 --> 02:08:53,821
You say, well, we've already written that.

1423
02:08:53,821 --> 02:08:56,381
We already have every book that we need, the Bible.

1424
02:08:56,381 --> 02:08:57,821
And then Gutenberg is like,

1425
02:08:57,821 --> 02:09:00,941
well, we can print more Bibles this way.

1426
02:09:01,180 --> 02:09:04,021
And people are like, okay, that's good, I guess.

1427
02:09:04,021 --> 02:09:05,901
But that's kind of missing the point

1428
02:09:05,901 --> 02:09:08,740
because we don't know what it is that people will want

1429
02:09:08,740 --> 02:09:10,300
in the future.

1430
02:09:10,300 --> 02:09:15,300
Are these sidechains gonna use Bitcoin as their token

1431
02:09:15,341 --> 02:09:17,341
or are they gonna have...

1432
02:09:17,341 --> 02:09:20,141
No, they use Bitcoin for their transaction fees

1433
02:09:20,141 --> 02:09:22,300
and as the money.

1434
02:09:22,300 --> 02:09:24,540
They're gonna have different currencies.

1435
02:09:25,381 --> 02:09:27,341
They can make up whatever they want.

1436
02:09:27,420 --> 02:09:28,261
Yeah, well, you know,

1437
02:09:28,261 --> 02:09:30,701
like you go to the New York Stock Exchange

1438
02:09:30,701 --> 02:09:33,581
and the unit is the US dollar.

1439
02:09:33,581 --> 02:09:35,781
So then you can wrap Ethereum with Bitcoin.

1440
02:09:37,420 --> 02:09:39,620
Yeah, we wouldn't need any ETH.

1441
02:09:40,540 --> 02:09:42,461
There would be no Ether.

1442
02:09:42,461 --> 02:09:44,701
So we just create an Ether out of nothing

1443
02:09:44,701 --> 02:09:46,540
and call it a wrapped Ether.

1444
02:09:47,620 --> 02:09:51,620
Yeah, you would create like a Ethereum full node

1445
02:09:51,620 --> 02:09:54,461
and it uses the BTC, the coin only.

1446
02:09:55,300 --> 02:09:57,540
And what, I mean, why would I do that

1447
02:09:57,540 --> 02:09:59,261
rather than just use Ethereum?

1448
02:10:00,901 --> 02:10:02,500
Well, because you have to buy an altcoin.

1449
02:10:02,500 --> 02:10:05,141
It's kind of like why you would have a smartphone

1450
02:10:05,141 --> 02:10:10,141
instead of carrying around a digital camera

1451
02:10:10,381 --> 02:10:15,381
and a like a boombox or something, you know,

1452
02:10:16,381 --> 02:10:18,781
because in a television, you know,

1453
02:10:18,781 --> 02:10:20,821
because they all have a boombox.

1454
02:10:20,941 --> 02:10:24,060
You know, because in a television, you know,

1455
02:10:24,060 --> 02:10:26,300
because they all those things are in one device.

1456
02:10:26,300 --> 02:10:27,740
So it's much better.

1457
02:10:31,660 --> 02:10:34,100
So the sidechain fees,

1458
02:10:35,060 --> 02:10:38,941
like who gets them, whoever makes up the sidechain

1459
02:10:38,941 --> 02:10:41,141
or whoever makes up a new coin.

1460
02:10:41,141 --> 02:10:43,701
I mean, is that how that's gonna work?

1461
02:10:43,701 --> 02:10:46,980
Ultimately, the sidechain fees on L2

1462
02:10:46,980 --> 02:10:50,821
are paid to the sidechain L2 Coinbase transaction.

1463
02:10:50,821 --> 02:10:55,000
So whoever makes the L2 block will collect those.

1464
02:10:55,000 --> 02:10:57,660
But as I've said, with blind merge mining,

1465
02:10:57,660 --> 02:11:00,461
there can be a little bit of a specialization of labor

1466
02:11:00,461 --> 02:11:02,461
where one person is running a sidechain node

1467
02:11:02,461 --> 02:11:04,941
and they just build the sidechain block.

1468
02:11:04,941 --> 02:11:07,660
And then they pay on L1 with L1 coins.

1469
02:11:07,660 --> 02:11:11,420
They say, listen, I need you to put this hash in this spot

1470
02:11:11,420 --> 02:11:13,740
and don't ask any questions.

1471
02:11:13,740 --> 02:11:18,100
And then to the miner, they pay the miner $995,000.

1472
02:11:18,100 --> 02:11:19,740
And the miner says, okay, fine.

1473
02:11:19,740 --> 02:11:21,221
Because the miner is looking at all the bids

1474
02:11:21,221 --> 02:11:22,500
and they get the highest bid.

1475
02:11:22,500 --> 02:11:26,040
They say, okay, I hope you guys are having fun over there.

1476
02:11:26,040 --> 02:11:29,180
And they take the 995 L1 coins

1477
02:11:29,180 --> 02:11:33,261
and then the sidechain miner in quotes,

1478
02:11:33,261 --> 02:11:34,761
this is a sidechain full node.

1479
02:11:36,021 --> 02:11:40,021
It mines a block that collects a $1 million transaction fee,

1480
02:11:40,021 --> 02:11:41,021
which would be whatever,

1481
02:11:41,021 --> 02:11:44,461
a million being 10 cents per transaction in that block.

1482
02:11:45,420 --> 02:11:46,261
Does that make sense?

1483
02:11:46,261 --> 02:11:50,461
So it makes Bitcoin available to you, move USD?

1484
02:11:52,620 --> 02:11:53,461
Whatever.

1485
02:11:53,461 --> 02:11:54,300
Oh, no, I was just talking about-

1486
02:11:54,300 --> 02:11:55,120
No, I was just talking about-

1487
02:11:55,120 --> 02:11:56,581
Pricing the fee in USD.

1488
02:11:56,581 --> 02:11:57,941
So I don't do dollars.

1489
02:11:57,941 --> 02:11:59,641
I'm 100% Bitcoin.

1490
02:12:01,441 --> 02:12:02,281
Cool, I like that.

1491
02:12:02,281 --> 02:12:03,461
I don't know.

1492
02:12:03,461 --> 02:12:07,100
So when you say a transaction fee of dollars,

1493
02:12:07,100 --> 02:12:09,901
you mean in Satoshis, right?

1494
02:12:11,381 --> 02:12:13,581
Yeah, let's say there's, on the sidechain,

1495
02:12:13,581 --> 02:12:15,860
everyone pays one sat per transaction.

1496
02:12:15,860 --> 02:12:18,540
So there's gonna be a 10 Bitcoin transaction fee

1497
02:12:18,540 --> 02:12:21,000
associated with this one single transaction.

1498
02:12:23,180 --> 02:12:25,180
And on the sidechain,

1499
02:12:25,180 --> 02:12:30,180
you have 10 million transactions that each pay one Satoshi.

1500
02:12:31,941 --> 02:12:34,860
And then on the Coinbase on L2,

1501
02:12:34,860 --> 02:12:39,420
we'll pay whoever finds that block, 10 million sats.

1502
02:12:41,420 --> 02:12:43,600
That person wants to find the block

1503
02:12:43,600 --> 02:12:45,500
so they can get their 10 million sats.

1504
02:12:46,740 --> 02:12:51,740
They go to L1 and they pay 9,995,000 sats.

1505
02:12:53,201 --> 02:12:55,461
Which is a far cry from a million dollars.

1506
02:12:57,261 --> 02:12:58,100
Well, yeah.

1507
02:12:58,100 --> 02:12:59,341
I mean, we could redo it if you wanted to.

1508
02:12:59,341 --> 02:13:00,781
We could say it was,

1509
02:13:00,781 --> 02:13:04,240
well, we could say that it has each transaction pays,

1510
02:13:05,500 --> 02:13:07,300
well, we would just have to divide and then multiply,

1511
02:13:07,300 --> 02:13:10,540
and I'm not sure if that would help anyone understand.

1512
02:13:10,540 --> 02:13:11,740
But you could say it's a million,

1513
02:13:11,740 --> 02:13:15,860
it doesn't make any difference to me.

1514
02:13:15,860 --> 02:13:17,980
We could do it if you want.

1515
02:13:17,980 --> 02:13:21,221
But the point is that a lot of small people on L2

1516
02:13:21,221 --> 02:13:23,980
paying into one Bitcoinbase,

1517
02:13:23,980 --> 02:13:28,060
the whole block is defined by an event that happens in L1.

1518
02:13:28,060 --> 02:13:33,060
So someone on L1 pays the miners to make a transaction

1519
02:13:36,620 --> 02:13:38,901
that says, please mine my L2 block.

1520
02:13:38,901 --> 02:13:41,701
If you do, I'll give you these L1 coins.

1521
02:13:41,701 --> 02:13:42,540
And the miners say, okay, fine.

1522
02:13:42,540 --> 02:13:46,060
Please like mine my shit coins, please.

1523
02:13:46,060 --> 02:13:46,901
Like basically.

1524
02:13:46,901 --> 02:13:48,321
So then why do we need a,

1525
02:13:50,341 --> 02:13:52,701
why don't we just make it another L2?

1526
02:13:54,261 --> 02:13:59,261
Like Jackchain, Liquid, and ARK, I believe,

1527
02:13:59,381 --> 02:14:03,581
all are capable of operating without BIM 300 and 301.

1528
02:14:04,581 --> 02:14:09,581
Yeah, well, ARK means more shit coins to work

1529
02:14:10,381 --> 02:14:13,941
and be created in one chain.

1530
02:14:13,941 --> 02:14:15,540
What do you mean by shit coins?

1531
02:14:15,540 --> 02:14:18,881
Well, they haven't even come out yet, right?

1532
02:14:19,781 --> 02:14:23,620
I mean, whatever drivechain or whatever layer two

1533
02:14:23,620 --> 02:14:27,180
that comes up on the drivechain that you guys make,

1534
02:14:29,381 --> 02:14:32,941
that aren't they gonna have their own coin or whatever?

1535
02:14:32,941 --> 02:14:33,781
No, of course not.

1536
02:14:33,781 --> 02:14:36,500
The whole point is that they don't have their own coin.

1537
02:14:36,500 --> 02:14:39,180
They're gonna use Bitcoin as the main currency

1538
02:14:39,180 --> 02:14:42,461
for that drivechain, which makes sense.

1539
02:14:43,500 --> 02:14:44,581
But-

1540
02:14:44,581 --> 02:14:49,461
I was understanding that they're gonna be able to use all,

1541
02:14:49,461 --> 02:14:51,261
that's just another way for them to

1542
02:14:52,781 --> 02:14:56,781
just make their own payments.

1543
02:14:56,781 --> 02:14:59,381
Like have a totally separate shit coin.

1544
02:15:00,100 --> 02:15:03,701
To make just layer two work like a lightning shit coin.

1545
02:15:03,701 --> 02:15:05,821
I don't even know, there isn't one really.

1546
02:15:07,500 --> 02:15:09,100
Yeah, it's exactly like the Lightning Network

1547
02:15:09,100 --> 02:15:11,021
where you have coins on a different network,

1548
02:15:11,021 --> 02:15:12,941
but it's BTC.

1549
02:15:12,941 --> 02:15:15,141
Because for every coin that's on the Lightning Network,

1550
02:15:15,141 --> 02:15:17,980
there's a two of two multi-signature output on L1

1551
02:15:17,980 --> 02:15:18,821
that has those coins.

1552
02:15:18,821 --> 02:15:23,420
So when you put five BTC into the Lightning Network,

1553
02:15:23,420 --> 02:15:27,420
you lock the coins into a multi-sig on L1,

1554
02:15:27,420 --> 02:15:29,221
and then you've joined the Lightning Network

1555
02:15:30,060 --> 02:15:30,901
and it's five coins.

1556
02:15:30,901 --> 02:15:32,221
Okay.

1557
02:15:32,221 --> 02:15:35,500
And that's exactly how it would work in this case.

1558
02:15:35,500 --> 02:15:40,500
So just like Lightning has Taro or whatever,

1559
02:15:41,021 --> 02:15:43,740
whatever they're doing, you can have-

1560
02:15:43,740 --> 02:15:45,980
I would have to make an on-chain transaction

1561
02:15:45,980 --> 02:15:48,660
to join a sidechain?

1562
02:15:49,860 --> 02:15:51,941
No, that's actually one of the big differences

1563
02:15:51,941 --> 02:15:55,221
between Lightning and drivechain,

1564
02:15:55,221 --> 02:15:57,381
but someone has to.

1565
02:15:57,420 --> 02:16:01,901
So someone deposits, they make the L1 transaction

1566
02:16:01,901 --> 02:16:03,341
and it shows up on L2.

1567
02:16:04,300 --> 02:16:08,941
And over there, you can be onboarded to L2

1568
02:16:08,941 --> 02:16:10,781
all day and night.

1569
02:16:10,781 --> 02:16:14,341
The new people can join over there who haven't made an L1.

1570
02:16:14,341 --> 02:16:16,821
But someone has to move the L1 coins.

1571
02:16:18,060 --> 02:16:19,701
They have to become L2 coins,

1572
02:16:19,701 --> 02:16:22,781
which every coin starts on L1, of course.

1573
02:16:22,781 --> 02:16:25,581
All the 21 million coins start there.

1574
02:16:26,540 --> 02:16:28,420
But so Lightning has like Taro,

1575
02:16:28,420 --> 02:16:31,261
which is like assets on Lightning.

1576
02:16:31,261 --> 02:16:35,941
And similarly, someone could do assets on drivechain.

1577
02:16:35,941 --> 02:16:37,141
That would be the analogy.

1578
02:16:37,141 --> 02:16:42,141
But Lightning BTC is analogous to drivechain BTC.

1579
02:16:44,141 --> 02:16:47,781
So someone could come up with their own coin

1580
02:16:47,781 --> 02:16:52,781
to charge fees on their drivechain layer two.

1581
02:16:52,901 --> 02:16:54,980
Well, I think the fees and the money unit

1582
02:16:55,221 --> 02:16:56,740
would always be BTC.

1583
02:16:57,740 --> 02:16:59,980
But I suppose also that's theoretically possible.

1584
02:16:59,980 --> 02:17:01,300
There's a way.

1585
02:17:01,300 --> 02:17:04,261
I think it's theoretically possible on Taro

1586
02:17:04,261 --> 02:17:08,660
to charge like Taro assets as a fee,

1587
02:17:08,660 --> 02:17:10,180
but I don't know if anyone would care.

1588
02:17:10,180 --> 02:17:13,900
For the same reason that when you go to the supermarket,

1589
02:17:13,900 --> 02:17:17,821
you don't pay in like motor oil or something.

1590
02:17:17,821 --> 02:17:18,660
I don't think people would want to do that.

1591
02:17:18,660 --> 02:17:20,540
I think that brings us up to the point

1592
02:17:20,540 --> 02:17:23,180
where you guys were when I just joined the group

1593
02:17:23,180 --> 02:17:28,180
that I take my 100,000 sats,

1594
02:17:28,501 --> 02:17:32,540
I lock it into this drivechain on the L1,

1595
02:17:32,540 --> 02:17:36,060
and then I have L2 capabilities with those,

1596
02:17:36,060 --> 02:17:39,981
or I lock them into this drivechain on the L1.

1597
02:17:39,981 --> 02:17:44,341
And then it allows me to have access to the drivechain.

1598
02:17:46,180 --> 02:17:48,981
But what happens if that drivechain server,

1599
02:17:48,981 --> 02:17:52,420
because drive trains are going to be inherently centralized.

1600
02:17:53,660 --> 02:17:57,101
So what happens if that drivechain server crashes

1601
02:17:57,101 --> 02:17:58,741
and I want to get my Bitcoin out?

1602
02:17:58,741 --> 02:18:01,420
Well, there wouldn't really be a server.

1603
02:18:01,420 --> 02:18:02,741
I think there'd be like,

1604
02:18:02,741 --> 02:18:04,780
there'd be peer to peer like Bitcoin,

1605
02:18:04,780 --> 02:18:07,461
because every node will be an equal peer.

1606
02:18:07,461 --> 02:18:09,701
But there probably would not be,

1607
02:18:09,701 --> 02:18:12,701
they're probably more experimental and have,

1608
02:18:13,701 --> 02:18:15,380
they're probably more buggy.

1609
02:18:15,380 --> 02:18:18,180
They probably have a higher block size limit.

1610
02:18:18,180 --> 02:18:23,020
So they would probably be less reliable than L1.

1611
02:18:23,861 --> 02:18:24,701
So I agree with that.

1612
02:18:24,701 --> 02:18:25,540
But other than there'd be a lot like,

1613
02:18:25,540 --> 02:18:28,260
there'd be like something like a, whatever,

1614
02:18:28,260 --> 02:18:30,101
there'd be like Litecoin or something,

1615
02:18:30,101 --> 02:18:32,981
there'd be like a, whatever, Feathercoin, I don't know.

1616
02:18:32,981 --> 02:18:34,941
But except with BTC only, obviously.

1617
02:18:36,060 --> 02:18:38,020
So then how do I get my,

1618
02:18:38,981 --> 02:18:42,540
say whatever happens with the drivechain,

1619
02:18:42,540 --> 02:18:46,420
it goes bust, are my Bitcoin gone forever?

1620
02:18:48,741 --> 02:18:51,581
If you do anything, you deposit there.

1621
02:18:51,621 --> 02:18:56,621
If it reaches a state where none of the node software works

1622
02:18:57,180 --> 02:18:59,221
and no one can figure out

1623
02:18:59,221 --> 02:19:01,380
who is the rightful owner of the coins on L2,

1624
02:19:01,380 --> 02:19:05,180
then they would be probably lost, yes.

1625
02:19:05,180 --> 02:19:06,341
That would be too bad.

1626
02:19:06,341 --> 02:19:11,140
But you see, that's also true of any decision you make

1627
02:19:11,140 --> 02:19:12,741
to your L1 coins, you know what I mean?

1628
02:19:12,741 --> 02:19:16,341
Like if you deposit that to the Lightning Network,

1629
02:19:16,341 --> 02:19:18,900
you could also lose all of the coins.

1630
02:19:18,900 --> 02:19:20,140
And people have,

1631
02:19:21,020 --> 02:19:22,780
because their node, their Lightning node crashes

1632
02:19:22,780 --> 02:19:25,701
and then it turns back on and broadcasts an old state

1633
02:19:25,701 --> 02:19:27,821
and then they lose all of it.

1634
02:19:27,821 --> 02:19:31,780
But the recovery seed phrase did not,

1635
02:19:31,780 --> 02:19:33,501
does not, it does much less

1636
02:19:33,501 --> 02:19:36,621
to help you recover your Lightning funds

1637
02:19:36,621 --> 02:19:38,660
than a lot of people thought.

1638
02:19:38,660 --> 02:19:40,060
But that's, I think it's a good thing

1639
02:19:40,060 --> 02:19:42,140
because you're the rightful owner.

1640
02:19:42,140 --> 02:19:44,060
They have to entice you to come over there,

1641
02:19:44,060 --> 02:19:44,900
you know what I mean?

1642
02:19:44,900 --> 02:19:46,821
It's kind of like, you live in a house

1643
02:19:46,821 --> 02:19:49,140
and then there's hotels.

1644
02:19:49,140 --> 02:19:53,140
And you think, well, why should I go into this hotel?

1645
02:19:53,140 --> 02:19:54,621
I like where I live.

1646
02:19:54,621 --> 02:19:56,461
And the hotel owner is saying,

1647
02:19:56,461 --> 02:19:58,380
well, we have all these amenities.

1648
02:19:58,380 --> 02:20:01,060
We have a pool, we have security.

1649
02:20:02,167 --> 02:20:10,167
And you're like, okay, but it's because you don't, no one's forcing, it's not like a prison, you know what I mean? Like no one's forcing you to go there.

1650
02:20:10,167 --> 02:20:14,167
They have to entice you over. If they don't entice you, then you just don't go.

1651
02:20:14,167 --> 02:20:25,167
So is there a hard cap on the number of drivechains possible? Or if it's based on whoever pays the highest fee, correct?

1652
02:20:25,167 --> 02:20:30,167
The BIP allows for 256.

1653
02:20:30,167 --> 02:20:39,167
So if number 257 shows up and outbids one of the 256, does that work?

1654
02:20:39,167 --> 02:20:54,167
It sort of works like that where if one of the sidechains is so low in the fees that it pays, that it's very unpopular.

1655
02:20:54,167 --> 02:21:02,167
And all the slots are taken and someone now comes up with a new idea that everyone really thinks will be significantly more popular.

1656
02:21:02,167 --> 02:21:14,167
Then that would be bad news for the unpopular one because it would probably, what I would imagine might happen in that situation is they might say, listen, okay, we're closing this sidechain in like six months.

1657
02:21:14,167 --> 02:21:17,167
So everyone get out because we need the slot.

1658
02:21:18,167 --> 02:21:27,167
But the other thing they could do is just activate BIP300 again. They could BIP-300B and make 256 more slots or you could have a sidechain of a sidechain.

1659
02:21:27,167 --> 02:21:33,167
So in practice, there's no real limit and I don't think we'll get anywhere near 256.

1660
02:21:33,167 --> 02:21:37,167
There's just not that many different ideas, but I could be totally wrong about that. You never know.

1661
02:21:37,167 --> 02:21:42,167
There's 22,000 shit coins out there. There's plenty of ideas.

1662
02:21:42,167 --> 02:21:47,167
No, but if you think about it, most of those only represent different versions of the same idea, really.

1663
02:21:47,167 --> 02:21:51,167
Those are just like, you know what I mean? Like there's enormous overlap.

1664
02:21:51,167 --> 02:22:02,167
A lot of those are just gripping and venture capital funding. It's a way to fund a project, an ICO.

1665
02:22:02,167 --> 02:22:09,167
If your VC cuts you off, you can just do an ICO and get your next funding round.

1666
02:22:13,167 --> 02:22:18,167
Right, and so there could be offsets or stocks and bonds or something.

1667
02:22:18,167 --> 02:22:24,167
So yeah, you see what I mean? It's not like a real sidechain idea per se.

1668
02:22:24,167 --> 02:22:38,167
No, but if there was number 257 and it come in and outbid number 231, then number 231, if they're consistently outbid...

1669
02:22:39,167 --> 02:22:55,167
It doesn't really work like that. The slots are acquired and then the slots are dropped and added in a way that is very different from the deposits and withdrawals and the large mining.

1670
02:22:55,167 --> 02:22:57,167
So that's a separate thing.

1671
02:22:58,167 --> 02:23:02,167
How is it separate? Can you explain that to me?

1672
02:23:02,167 --> 02:23:10,167
It's just like a different thing where it's like you put in a Coinbase transaction on L1 that you want to claim slot 231.

1673
02:23:10,167 --> 02:23:19,167
And then if 90% of miners agree, then the slot is sort of turned on and it can receive deposits and withdrawals.

1674
02:23:19,167 --> 02:23:24,167
And then to reassign the slot, it takes like six months. It's a very long time.

1675
02:23:24,167 --> 02:23:30,167
So then every sidechain has to be voted upon by miners? It's just the one miner that included in the block?

1676
02:23:30,167 --> 02:23:37,167
No, no, no. It's 90% over two weeks. So anyone can propose the sidechain. They have to be a miner.

1677
02:23:37,167 --> 02:23:41,167
Any miner can propose it in one block, but then it needs to get act.

1678
02:23:41,167 --> 02:23:45,167
I'm talking about miners, not individual miners.

1679
02:23:46,167 --> 02:23:54,167
Well, it actually could be a solo miner. It's whoever finds a block. So it counts the 2016 blocks.

1680
02:23:54,167 --> 02:23:56,167
So yeah, the big people.

1681
02:23:57,167 --> 02:24:00,167
Nobody in a home.

1682
02:24:01,167 --> 02:24:07,167
Well, your odds of finding the block are proportional to your hash rate.

1683
02:24:07,167 --> 02:24:24,167
I did the math on this, guys, a while back. And with one single S9 miner, you are 360 times more likely to solo mine a block than you are to win the Powerball.

1684
02:24:24,167 --> 02:24:31,167
Oh, that's cool. People should do that instead.

1685
02:24:31,167 --> 02:24:44,167
30,000 miners. 30,000 S19s at 100 terahash estimated to win a block a day as far as the odds go. The day I did the math.

1686
02:24:44,167 --> 02:24:50,167
Yeah, but the idea is that all the miners collectively, they're trying to maximize their revenue.

1687
02:24:51,167 --> 02:24:56,167
So it's all about the same person in this point of view.

1688
02:24:56,167 --> 02:25:05,167
Because it's just saying they either want more transaction fee revenue from slot 231 or they don't.

1689
02:25:05,167 --> 02:25:07,167
So it shouldn't be like...

1690
02:25:08,167 --> 02:25:10,167
Well, yeah, of course people always disagree.

1691
02:25:10,167 --> 02:25:13,167
Anyway, I think we should go to...

1692
02:25:13,167 --> 02:25:25,167
I honestly think that if these transactions are thrown out there, the miners are going to be incentivized to mine them up because of the transaction fees.

1693
02:25:25,167 --> 02:25:31,167
That's just the incentive structure on the base layer for miners is to be greedy.

1694
02:25:32,167 --> 02:25:36,167
Okay, so I think we should go to JP and then Austin and then Mark.

1695
02:25:36,167 --> 02:25:38,167
Yeah, go ahead.

1696
02:25:40,167 --> 02:25:55,167
Okay, great. So, okay, first thing, you alluded to a transaction that got reversed. Were you referring to the recent PayPal fatfinger?

1697
02:25:55,167 --> 02:25:59,167
Yeah, the F2Pool fatfinger. It wasn't like reversed.

1698
02:26:00,167 --> 02:26:06,167
He like made a new transaction to graciously send the money back or whatever.

1699
02:26:11,167 --> 02:26:19,167
Okay, great. So yeah, I thought you were referring to that because I don't recall hearing of one of those like ever before.

1700
02:26:20,167 --> 02:26:23,167
It did happen. I think it happened.

1701
02:26:24,167 --> 02:26:32,167
It wasn't a miner. I don't remember what... I think it happened in 2015.

1702
02:26:35,167 --> 02:26:41,167
Ancient history. Okay, so my real question that I've been holding my breath for like forever for is...

1703
02:26:42,167 --> 02:26:45,167
Actually, who was it?

1704
02:26:48,167 --> 02:26:55,167
I'm sorry, whoever came in after me actually alluded to the question.

1705
02:26:55,167 --> 02:26:59,167
So the question of transferring value to the L2, right?

1706
02:26:59,167 --> 02:27:07,167
So with the sediment and liquid and lightning, right? So you're actually, like you say, using...

1707
02:27:07,167 --> 02:27:16,167
Effectively, I believe you're saying you're using the same mechanism that multi-sig uses, right? To put a restriction.

1708
02:27:16,167 --> 02:27:24,167
That's what they do. This is similar but not quite the same because it's gated by proof of work.

1709
02:27:24,167 --> 02:27:32,167
So if you're finding blocks, you're gaining the ability to sign, so to speak, but if you're not, then you're losing the ability to sign.

1710
02:27:32,167 --> 02:27:35,167
And so that's one way of looking at it.

1711
02:27:35,167 --> 02:27:41,167
If you read the... Literally reading the BIP is probably a very good way.

1712
02:27:41,167 --> 02:27:43,167
It always is, yeah.

1713
02:27:43,167 --> 02:27:45,167
Go to the RFC.

1714
02:27:45,167 --> 02:27:47,167
Exactly what's happening, yeah.

1715
02:27:47,167 --> 02:27:49,167
Go to the RFC.

1716
02:27:49,167 --> 02:27:58,167
Okay, so I get lost in the weeds on the concept of transferring the value to the sidechain, right?

1717
02:27:58,167 --> 02:28:04,167
So obviously, we know the Ethereum way and it's not that.

1718
02:28:04,167 --> 02:28:11,167
So you just said it's not really the multi-sig way either.

1719
02:28:11,167 --> 02:28:13,167
So it's a third thing.

1720
02:28:13,167 --> 02:28:19,167
So effectively, what prevents a double spend from happening, right?

1721
02:28:19,167 --> 02:28:30,167
So if the value is up on the drivechain, what's preventing you from double spending the same UTXO on the base chain simultaneously?

1722
02:28:30,167 --> 02:28:35,167
Right, so literally what's happening on L1 is this op-nop 5.

1723
02:28:36,167 --> 02:28:41,167
And when you spend Bitcoin to it, you unlock Bitcoin you have.

1724
02:28:41,167 --> 02:28:43,167
Those are your inputs. You select your input.

1725
02:28:43,167 --> 02:28:46,167
You send it into this op-nop 5.

1726
02:28:46,167 --> 02:28:51,167
Now, the op-nop 5 rule is that whenever anyone does that, they have to also...

1727
02:28:51,167 --> 02:28:54,167
It's free and instant to put more money in.

1728
02:28:54,167 --> 02:28:57,167
So you're always selecting the op-nop 5 when you put more money in.

1729
02:28:57,167 --> 02:29:01,167
If it already has free Bitcoin in there, then you want to put in 0.02.

1730
02:29:01,167 --> 02:29:05,167
You take that 3 and you take your 0.02 and you make it a 3.02.

1731
02:29:05,167 --> 02:29:08,167
And so the deposits are always going in.

1732
02:29:08,167 --> 02:29:12,167
That's allowed, no questions asked.

1733
02:29:12,167 --> 02:29:14,167
So you can always put more money in.

1734
02:29:14,167 --> 02:29:16,167
There's the deposit.

1735
02:29:16,167 --> 02:29:28,167
And then the withdrawals, you can only spend out if it is the case that this hash is on this pre-approved list of hashes.

1736
02:29:28,167 --> 02:29:30,167
And how do you get the hash on the list?

1737
02:29:30,167 --> 02:29:32,167
That is the capsule thing.

1738
02:29:32,167 --> 02:29:38,167
You put the hash of where you want to spend the money 3 months from now.

1739
02:29:38,167 --> 02:29:41,167
You put that in L1, in the L1 Coinbase.

1740
02:29:41,167 --> 02:29:45,167
Then miners slowly hack it.

1741
02:29:45,167 --> 02:29:55,167
They upload it or they have proof of work on it, gaining 1 26,000th of the signature power, basically, over time.

1742
02:29:55,167 --> 02:30:01,167
And then by the time 3 months has passed, they have 13,000 and change, so they have enough.

1743
02:30:01,167 --> 02:30:04,167
They have more than half, so they have enough to sign at that point.

1744
02:30:04,167 --> 02:30:08,167
They sign the previous transaction that had been put in the Coinbase.

1745
02:30:08,167 --> 02:30:14,167
So they have to declare where the money is going up front, and then they do all the work on it, and then it goes through.

1746
02:30:14,167 --> 02:30:20,167
And that's the only way to spend out of op-nop 5 if BIP300 activates.

1747
02:30:20,167 --> 02:30:23,167
If it doesn't activate, then yes.

1748
02:30:23,167 --> 02:30:27,167
I thought the Coinbase transaction is only one per block.

1749
02:30:27,167 --> 02:30:32,167
There is. First of all, my phone is frozen, so I'll probably accidentally crash soon.

1750
02:30:32,167 --> 02:30:34,167
But hopefully you can still hear me for now.

1751
02:30:34,167 --> 02:30:41,167
There's only one Coinbase transaction per block, but each Coinbase transaction can have many outputs.

1752
02:30:43,167 --> 02:30:44,167
I see.

1753
02:30:44,167 --> 02:30:48,167
After the fact, even after the block is created, yes.

1754
02:30:48,167 --> 02:31:05,167
So is there a Coinbase transaction created on the L2 that corresponds to the Coinbase transaction from the block on the L1?

1755
02:31:05,167 --> 02:31:10,167
That's a good question. What's happening is – can you hear me, first of all?

1756
02:31:10,167 --> 02:31:14,167
I can now. A moment ago, you faded away.

1757
02:31:15,167 --> 02:31:17,167
Okay, I got it back.

1758
02:31:17,167 --> 02:31:30,167
So an L1 Coinbase doesn't necessarily mean that – the L1 Coinbase for the merged mining – you have to keep the two things separate.

1759
02:31:30,167 --> 02:31:34,167
There's deposits and withdrawals, and then there's the merged mining.

1760
02:31:34,167 --> 02:31:37,167
In the deposits and withdrawals, there's not necessarily –

1761
02:31:37,167 --> 02:31:45,167
Okay, you're gone now, 100%.

1762
02:31:48,167 --> 02:31:50,167
Yeah, probably lost you.

1763
02:31:58,167 --> 02:32:00,167
Are you muted?

1764
02:32:01,167 --> 02:32:07,167
I think he just needs to probably be made a speaker again.

1765
02:32:07,167 --> 02:32:15,167
If you can hear me, Paul, try minimizing the spaces to the bottom of the screen.

1766
02:32:15,167 --> 02:32:16,167
Does that help?

1767
02:32:16,167 --> 02:32:19,167
Oh, nice. Okay, I'll do that.

1768
02:32:19,167 --> 02:32:20,167
Did that work?

1769
02:32:20,167 --> 02:32:23,167
Yeah. Okay, I'm back. Nice. Okay, it's a joke.

1770
02:32:23,167 --> 02:32:30,167
What I've found – real quick before we keep going – what I've found, Paul, is that if you minimize the spaces that you're talking on,

1771
02:32:30,167 --> 02:32:38,167
and then refresh the main feed of your Twitter, when you come back to the spaces, it generally restores the audio.

1772
02:32:40,167 --> 02:32:42,167
Okay, cool. Good to know.

1773
02:32:42,167 --> 02:32:51,167
Yeah, I don't know why – you know, that's funny, because I assumed that there was some kind of cache that's filling up from the space itself.

1774
02:32:51,167 --> 02:32:59,167
But now that you mention that, I think it's probably – what they do is they're loading more and more tweets or something, or whatever it is.

1775
02:32:59,167 --> 02:33:02,167
The engineer – unfortunately, this happens to me quite a bit.

1776
02:33:02,167 --> 02:33:05,167
If we speak for a while, it scratches, and maybe I need a new phone.

1777
02:33:05,167 --> 02:33:11,167
I try not to buy a new phone too frequently, because I think that's just too decadent.

1778
02:33:11,167 --> 02:33:16,167
But anyway, the question was about, is every L1 Coinbase linked to an L2 Coinbase?

1779
02:33:17,167 --> 02:33:23,167
In the deposits and withdrawals, they actually have almost nothing to do with each other at all.

1780
02:33:23,167 --> 02:33:28,167
And each deposit is a regular L1 transaction that's not an L1 Coinbase.

1781
02:33:31,167 --> 02:33:39,167
Depending on how the sidechain is coded, they may put all the deposits in the L2 Coinbase, or they may put them some other place.

1782
02:33:39,167 --> 02:33:41,167
It doesn't really make any difference, even.

1783
02:33:42,167 --> 02:33:48,167
But for the L2 Coinbase, that is – I don't know if that is helping at all.

1784
02:33:48,167 --> 02:33:59,167
But the L2 Coinbase is – the main purpose of the L2 Coinbase is to collect the transaction fees paid on the L2, the on-chain L2 transactions.

1785
02:33:59,167 --> 02:34:01,167
That is what the L2 Coinbase is doing.

1786
02:34:05,167 --> 02:34:08,167
And effectively, at the end of the day, it's just a ledger, right?

1787
02:34:08,167 --> 02:34:13,167
I mean, obviously, everything stays on L1.

1788
02:34:13,167 --> 02:34:20,167
And L2 is really just a ledger, and it's just a matter of locking the value so that you can't double-spend.

1789
02:34:20,167 --> 02:34:23,167
I mean, at its most basic level, that's it, right?

1790
02:34:23,167 --> 02:34:30,167
Well, you could think of it like maybe you have a personal checking account and a business checking account.

1791
02:34:30,167 --> 02:34:34,167
Both of them are at Wells Fargo, hypothetically.

1792
02:34:34,167 --> 02:34:39,167
If Wells Fargo is the L1 – we don't want that, of course, but I'm just saying as an example.

1793
02:34:39,167 --> 02:34:40,167
Like, Wells Fargo –

1794
02:34:40,167 --> 02:34:44,167
No, don't use abstract analogies.

1795
02:34:44,167 --> 02:34:45,167
Okay.

1796
02:34:45,167 --> 02:34:54,167
Well, I'm just trying to say, like, on L1, there's maybe – it says 3,000 Bitcoin belong to this address, and 2 belong to this address.

1797
02:34:54,167 --> 02:35:05,167
And maybe the 2 Bitcoin you own that free and clear that's in your L1 Bitcoin wallet, and then the 3,000 is owned by the sidechain, basically,

1798
02:35:05,167 --> 02:35:12,167
where there's a bunch of different people own some of it, and the whole thing adds up to the 3,000 BTC.

1799
02:35:16,167 --> 02:35:22,167
Okay, so the bottom line is I need to read up on the number 5 op that you referred to.

1800
02:35:22,167 --> 02:35:30,167
Yeah, if you find it, then it'll tell you what – because it's a proposal to claim the unused op-nop 5 and use it for this.

1801
02:35:30,167 --> 02:35:32,167
Right now, it's being used for nothing.

1802
02:35:32,167 --> 02:35:38,167
We have all these op-nops that don't do anything, and so you can use them if you have an idea.

1803
02:35:38,167 --> 02:35:40,167
Okay, thank you.

1804
02:35:40,167 --> 02:35:41,167
Thank you.

1805
02:35:41,167 --> 02:35:42,167
Okay, Austin.

1806
02:35:42,167 --> 02:35:46,167
Hello.

1807
02:35:46,167 --> 02:35:47,167
If you want to say anything.

1808
02:35:47,167 --> 02:35:48,167
I saw that.

1809
02:35:48,167 --> 02:35:50,167
I think we both crashed.

1810
02:35:50,167 --> 02:35:51,167
Really weird.

1811
02:35:51,167 --> 02:35:52,167
I don't know.

1812
02:35:52,167 --> 02:36:00,167
App just isn't super great at this time for me, but you're on mute.

1813
02:36:00,167 --> 02:36:05,167
If you don't say anything, then we'll go to Mark, I think.

1814
02:36:05,167 --> 02:36:07,167
Oh, Paul, this is the first time talking.

1815
02:36:07,167 --> 02:36:08,167
Yeah.

1816
02:36:08,167 --> 02:36:09,167
Hello.

1817
02:36:09,167 --> 02:36:11,167
I'm a big supporter of the BIP300.

1818
02:36:11,167 --> 02:36:12,167
Yes, can you hear me, Paul?

1819
02:36:12,167 --> 02:36:14,167
Yes, I can hear you.

1820
02:36:14,167 --> 02:36:15,167
Okay, good.

1821
02:36:15,167 --> 02:36:17,167
I'm a supporter of your project.

1822
02:36:17,167 --> 02:36:29,167
I just think it's got some cool things to it that I heard potentially to each other without paying any cents, in theory.

1823
02:36:29,167 --> 02:36:32,167
Is that correct?

1824
02:36:32,167 --> 02:36:37,167
You cut out when you said in the whatever sense, so I missed the most important word.

1825
02:36:37,167 --> 02:36:42,167
We can send satoshis to each other without paying any cents?

1826
02:36:42,167 --> 02:36:43,167
Yes.

1827
02:36:43,167 --> 02:36:51,167
I think there was the potential for abundant block space that has different security to L1, but it would have lower fees.

1828
02:36:51,167 --> 02:36:55,167
And I think a lot of people will like that, especially people who are using custodial now.

1829
02:36:55,167 --> 02:36:56,167
That's basically what they're doing.

1830
02:36:56,167 --> 02:37:04,167
They're basically using an infinite block drivechain that has no transparency or control over at all.

1831
02:37:05,167 --> 02:37:07,167
And I like how it's opt-in.

1832
02:37:07,167 --> 02:37:09,167
And to be an opt-in, you need to what?

1833
02:37:09,167 --> 02:37:11,167
Be a two of three?

1834
02:37:17,167 --> 02:37:19,167
I can't really hear you.

1835
02:37:19,167 --> 02:37:20,167
Sorry.

1836
02:37:20,167 --> 02:37:22,167
You said to opt-in, you need what?

1837
02:37:22,167 --> 02:37:30,167
What do you need to do to partake in being a drivechain?

1838
02:37:31,167 --> 02:37:37,167
You just need to have a two of three multi-sig wallet, right?

1839
02:37:37,167 --> 02:37:39,167
No, no, no.

1840
02:37:39,167 --> 02:37:40,167
You don't.

1841
02:37:40,167 --> 02:37:42,167
You can just move the coins over.

1842
02:37:42,167 --> 02:37:45,167
You spend them to opt-not-five.

1843
02:37:45,167 --> 02:37:50,167
And when you spend them, you write an op-return, like this is where I want to go in the sidechain.

1844
02:37:50,167 --> 02:37:53,167
And the sidechain gives them to you over there.

1845
02:37:53,167 --> 02:37:55,167
All right.

1846
02:37:55,167 --> 02:37:57,167
Then let me stick with what's in the nest.

1847
02:37:57,167 --> 02:38:03,167
I put a tweet that this is going to provide a new source of miner profits.

1848
02:38:03,167 --> 02:38:05,167
Would you say that's a true statement?

1849
02:38:05,167 --> 02:38:07,167
Yes, I would.

1850
02:38:07,167 --> 02:38:08,167
Good.

1851
02:38:08,167 --> 02:38:16,167
So, this is going to eventually, I think it's not like myself as just an individual full node runner and a hodler.

1852
02:38:16,167 --> 02:38:20,167
I have no say in what goes down on this.

1853
02:38:20,167 --> 02:38:28,167
I think this is going to be between the big nodes, the big mining pools.

1854
02:38:28,167 --> 02:38:37,167
Would you say the mining pools are the ones that are going to get first dibs as to if they want to implement this technology?

1855
02:38:37,167 --> 02:38:46,167
Well, I think probably they may be the ones activating the 300, and they would be maybe the ones who activate the first sidechain.

1856
02:38:46,167 --> 02:38:56,167
And so, they would be to turn it on, but it would be created by a software developer, and then it would be used by regular users who want to use the feature.

1857
02:38:56,167 --> 02:38:57,167
So, I don't really know.

1858
02:38:57,167 --> 02:39:06,167
It's a matter of kind of philosophy as to who actually comes first in that story.

1859
02:39:06,167 --> 02:39:07,167
Right.

1860
02:39:07,167 --> 02:39:08,167
So, let me ask you.

1861
02:39:08,167 --> 02:39:15,167
I was told by Brian, or actually even Doxo, that this thing can go one of three ways.

1862
02:39:15,167 --> 02:39:18,167
It can go neutral, which is where Bitcoin stays the same.

1863
02:39:18,167 --> 02:39:23,167
It can go pro BIP300, which is that we get BIP300.

1864
02:39:23,167 --> 02:39:28,167
Or it could go anti BIP300.

1865
02:39:28,167 --> 02:39:38,167
Either of those pro or antis require still some kind of fork from neutral, which is just unaware of in terms of NOAA5 code, right?

1866
02:39:38,167 --> 02:39:39,167
Right.

1867
02:39:39,167 --> 02:39:42,167
I think I understand what you mean.

1868
02:39:42,167 --> 02:39:45,167
Yeah.

1869
02:39:45,167 --> 02:39:53,167
But then once BIP300 gets implemented, there's going to be room for interpretation for how to peg Bitcoin in and out.

1870
02:39:54,167 --> 02:39:55,167
I was asking Chad GPT.

1871
02:39:55,167 --> 02:39:59,167
It came up with at least seven different methods to get Bitcoins in and out.

1872
02:39:59,167 --> 02:40:01,167
I'm like, wow, Chad GPT.

1873
02:40:01,167 --> 02:40:02,167
How does he even know?

1874
02:40:02,167 --> 02:40:03,167
But…

1875
02:40:03,167 --> 02:40:04,167
Yeah.

1876
02:40:05,405 --> 02:40:12,405
How do you then curate and, you know, kind of police this system so that things from layer two don't bubble up on layer one?

1877
02:40:13,405 --> 02:40:29,405
Well, that's part of the design is so that that never happens. So, for example, there were previous ideas, such as the extension block, where it was unclear if drama on the extension block would affect the L1.

1878
02:40:29,405 --> 02:40:40,405
But every part of this has been designed so that when you opt into using the L2, you opt into the drama. And then when you opt out, you leave the drama behind.

1879
02:40:41,405 --> 02:40:53,405
I think it's certainly the case that even if there was drama, which I don't think there is, but even if there was, we already live in a world where actually we are affected by other things.

1880
02:40:53,405 --> 02:41:04,405
So, for example, I think if like an altcoin flip into BTC, that would really badly affect BTC. So, it's desirable to not be affected by BTC.

1881
02:41:04,405 --> 02:41:24,405
Let us talk. So, yeah, I think you've gamified the situation here. I think BIP300 is not a question of if, but more like when. It could be like eight years from now, but I think you're going to get BIP300.

1882
02:41:24,405 --> 02:41:44,405
And, you know, it's going to take a lot. We're early on Bitcoin and we're super early on BIP300. So, people are going to want it. But let me ask you, what do we need to do to prepare to get in early on this thing?

1883
02:41:44,405 --> 02:41:59,405
Well, I think, I mean, it depends on what you mean by getting early. But I think that, you know, like we have just like a weird problem in front of us where a lot of people don't understand the idea.

1884
02:41:59,405 --> 02:42:24,405
So, we want to make sure that we counter the FUD and we just let everyone know that it does not negatively affect L1 and is good for Bitcoin adoption. It's good for having everyone cooperate. It's good for creativity. It's good for miners. It's good for users. It's really good for developers who can try something out.

1885
02:42:24,405 --> 02:42:33,405
Yeah, like ARK, we have to wait. We have to wait forever for like something 119 or whatever. If we lived in a parallel world that had…

1886
02:42:33,405 --> 02:42:37,405
119, can that coexist with BIP300?

1887
02:42:37,405 --> 02:42:38,405
Yes, of course.

1888
02:42:39,405 --> 02:43:03,405
Yeah, that's what I thought. 119, I think of it as a CBDC, Paul. Let me ask you, it limits the way you can spend your Bitcoin. For example, it may be that, let's say you run a store that's Bitcoin only, but, you know, I might not be allowed to spend my Bitcoin at your Bitcoin only store with BIT119. Would you say that's a true statement?

1889
02:43:04,405 --> 02:43:25,405
I don't think I would really, because what happens is you're the owner right now and you have coins that do not have the covenant on them. So, in order for the covenant to be on them, you either have to send your own coins into the covenant forever, where they're cursed forever, or you have to receive these cursed coins from someone else.

1890
02:43:25,405 --> 02:43:51,405
So, all you have to do is when you say, send me the coins, you just have to say, no curse. I don't want to curse on my coins. So, I think even if it's theoretically possible, I don't think in practice it would happen because you would… it would be like if your employer tried to pay you in monopoly money or something. You know, you're like, I don't want this monopoly money. I'm only showing up to work if you pay me US dollar or, you know, Bitcoin or whatever.

1891
02:43:52,405 --> 02:43:59,405
So, I think it wouldn't actually happen. But I think that it's theoretically possible, but I don't think it's… I think it's kind of like overblown here.

1892
02:44:00,405 --> 02:44:01,405
Yeah.

1893
02:44:03,405 --> 02:44:05,405
Alright, interesting. Thank you for your thoughts.

1894
02:44:06,405 --> 02:44:07,405
My pleasure.

1895
02:44:14,405 --> 02:44:17,405
I yield the floor to anybody else who has questions.

1896
02:44:22,405 --> 02:44:25,405
Hello, G. We have G.

1897
02:44:26,405 --> 02:44:27,405
Hey, guys. Can anybody hear me?

1898
02:44:28,405 --> 02:44:29,405
Yeah, I can hear you now.

1899
02:44:30,405 --> 02:44:50,405
Awesome. Cheers. I met you last year in Riga, so it was great to get to know you. I have this question around the activation and this entire governance process. I'm rereading the Block Size Wars on the BitMEX blog, this entire book.

1900
02:44:51,405 --> 02:45:14,405
And I'm thinking, I would like to know, what do you think is the main lesson for the big blockers as to why they failed? And what do you think you have to do right this time to get broad enough consensus to push this change through?

1901
02:45:15,405 --> 02:45:25,405
Yeah, I'm not a… Yes, I was not a big blocker. And in fact, I favor shrinking the L1 block size.

1902
02:45:26,405 --> 02:45:43,405
But I do… I'm very interested in this topic a lot. And I think that what they did wrong was they made a hard fork for… ultimately, it was a very small deal, which was just like 2 megabyte hard fork.

1903
02:45:43,405 --> 02:45:58,405
And then it was basically 8 megabytes with Bitcoin Cash and or Bitcoin XT, kind of depends on where you draw the timeline. But I think, yeah, they made a big deal about this hard fork, but the hard fork was not a permanent solution to anything.

1904
02:45:58,405 --> 02:46:14,405
It was only like a temporary solution. Even if that worked, it would have only been a matter of time before the blocks became 8 megabytes. And as a result, you would have had the hard fork again, at which point, anyone who had stayed on BTC could just catch up.

1905
02:46:14,405 --> 02:46:34,405
So it was kind of like a big lose-lose situation. It's also the case that you can build a large block, optional large block, on top of a small L1 block, but you can't do the reverse. So it didn't even matter if you preferred large blocks or small blocks. It was kind of just irrational to switch L1 from small block to large block.

1906
02:46:34,405 --> 02:46:57,405
So I think those were the mistakes. I think the big mistake was going for the hard fork. The hard fork is a very, very, very strong. It's a very powerful tool, and it's very disruptive. And so you need a very good reason to use it, and probably you need lots of preparation and education beforehand.

1907
02:46:57,405 --> 02:47:26,405
And I don't know if that seemed powerful. What literally happened was there was a vote that was split. So there was failed attempts to persuade for block size increase. Then there was the mandatory SegWit block size increase from 1 to 4 megabytes. And that was being held up. That itself was a 2.3x block size increase.

1908
02:47:26,405 --> 02:47:40,405
So that was being held up to get SegWit2x, which just basically wanted another 2x on top of the 2x they were already getting. So it was very confusing. And then Amri Sache, he just like YOLOed Bitcoin Cash. He just made that out of nowhere.

1909
02:47:40,405 --> 02:48:00,405
Everyone kind of dismissed it from August 2017 until November 2017, when SegWit2x was finally called off and abandoned. And then there was switch. So I think there's a huge number. In fact, I've tweeted a table. I think if you search from Truthcoin, the BCH mistakes, I made a big green table, I think.

1910
02:48:00,405 --> 02:48:12,405
And you can find it on Twitter. You can read all about numerous mistakes they made, which I think is a long list. I don't want to go into lots of detail about that, I think.

1911
02:48:13,405 --> 02:48:29,405
I see. I see. Thanks a lot. Maybe a quick follow-up question would be that you've been pushing this now for quite a while. I think this summer it really picked up in terms of discussion.

1912
02:48:29,405 --> 02:48:54,405
So what do you see as the biggest challenge you have to overcome to make sure that this change actually pushes through? What is the thing you still haven't solved? Is it that the idea is still too complex, similar to how SegWit2x explanations were too complex in the beginning? Or is it something else?

1913
02:48:55,405 --> 02:49:14,405
I think that is the answer, which is that people just don't understand. I mean, still, we get people who join the space today and it's not a crime to be ignorant. Every ignorant person is innocent.

1914
02:49:14,405 --> 02:49:32,405
But people come today and they say they don't realize that there's not – they think it's like literally Zcash, like the coin on BTC. And the whole point is to completely eliminate that, not just from BTC, but from the rest of the universe.

1915
02:49:33,405 --> 02:49:52,405
So I think people just don't understand it, and we're going to try to build some software for people to use. They see with their own two eyes what it does, and also to convince everyone that activating it on L1 would not harm L1.

1916
02:49:52,405 --> 02:50:09,405
So we want to make whatever demonstration we can that people will believe. And I think that being ignored is sort of worse than having everyone talk about it, but 99% of people misunderstand it.

1917
02:50:09,405 --> 02:50:22,405
I remember when I was first learning about Bitcoin or even first learning about the Lightning Network, I had a very bad understanding of it for a while. And the IRC chat logs are out there for people to find.

1918
02:50:23,405 --> 02:50:35,405
When I was first learning about Lightning in early 2015 or something, and I had no idea that there were two different versions of the transaction, I had no idea about how it worked. So I think it's just new.

1919
02:50:36,405 --> 02:50:46,405
Part of it, I do think, is you have to understand a lot about how Bitcoin already works to understand why it's different from other things.

1920
02:50:47,405 --> 02:51:08,405
I think that's big. So we have stuff on our website. We have comments from supporters or people who have looked into the idea and like it. We have demo software. I think demo software would be big. So we're going to demo some use cases and things.

1921
02:51:12,405 --> 02:51:13,405
All right. Thanks, Paul.

1922
02:51:14,405 --> 02:51:15,405
Thank you.

1923
02:51:17,405 --> 02:51:23,405
Hello. Yes, Paul. It's me, Austin.

1924
02:51:24,405 --> 02:51:25,405
How are you, son?

1925
02:51:26,405 --> 02:51:31,405
Now I've spread it to a half-dozen others.

1926
02:51:32,405 --> 02:51:33,405
Moving forward.

1927
02:51:33,405 --> 02:51:46,405
Yeah. So I had an interesting conversation sometime this week, I think earlier this week, with somebody who really should know better. Somebody who's been in this industry at a high level for years.

1928
02:51:47,405 --> 02:52:05,405
And they said something to me to the effect of, oh, well, the reason that Paul's making this big push now is because he just wants to like release his shitcoin, implying, I believe, this talk about Hivemind.

1929
02:52:06,405 --> 02:52:21,405
And I had to reply, that's actually the exact opposite of the truth, because I don't know what it was now. I think it was seven years ago. I was telling him, you might as well release a shitcoin because it's going so slow.

1930
02:52:21,405 --> 02:52:28,405
And basically I was saying, he could have done this seven years ago and probably made, I mean, maybe literally a billion dollars.

1931
02:52:29,405 --> 02:52:42,405
So instead, all that time ago, when I was saying it maybe 90% in jest, but I remember you telling me six or seven years ago, oh, no, it's going to be much better on Bitcoin.

1932
02:52:43,405 --> 02:52:52,405
I don't want to make it a disposable project, I guess, to the tune of Augur.

1933
02:52:53,405 --> 02:53:18,405
And so maybe the broader community would benefit from hearing a bit about what is Hivemind, or originally called Truthcoin, what's the origin of it, how does it work, and why is it so powerful, and how did that lead you to trying to figure out how to actually make peer-to-peer sidechains happen?

1934
02:53:19,405 --> 02:53:36,405
Yeah, okay. I mean, that is also, I feel like if I would do it over, I would just have launched it maybe as an altcoin, kind of like what Monero did, because at least they got users or something, and I thought that Bitcoin would pursue the sidechain idea a little more.

1935
02:53:37,405 --> 02:53:50,405
But yeah, it's interesting that the project, Bitcoin Hivemind, that also has comments on the site, BitcoinHivemind.com, it has comments from Adam Back, Andrew Polstra, Peter Todd even.

1936
02:53:51,405 --> 02:53:59,405
Because I was determined to have it be reviewed by smart people, because I really believed it was a high-quality project, and I wanted it to stand apart.

1937
02:54:00,405 --> 02:54:08,405
But basically, this is my idea for a peer-to-peer oracle, and a prediction marketplace.

1938
02:54:09,405 --> 02:54:14,405
So this idea allows people to bet Bitcoin on any event that happens in the world.

1939
02:54:15,405 --> 02:54:28,405
But unlike previous ideas, like a discrete log contract, there's a third party, it's like a two or three multi-sig, and there's one person who just sets the outcome, and that person can just steal from everyone.

1940
02:54:29,405 --> 02:54:31,405
In a prediction market context.

1941
02:54:32,405 --> 02:54:38,405
So they can set the price to zero, and it should be one, and then buy, and then set the price to something else, or whatever.

1942
02:54:39,405 --> 02:54:49,405
So that doesn't really work. I instead had a completely decentralized process for calculating the outcome of real-world events.

1943
02:54:50,405 --> 02:55:00,405
And yeah, I believe that prediction markets are a very big deal, and in the past I joked that they're going to make the printing press look like a cartoon network.

1944
02:55:01,405 --> 02:55:05,405
Because what the prediction market can do is scale a conversation.

1945
02:55:06,405 --> 02:55:11,405
So normally the more people who talk about something, the harder it is to figure out what is going on.

1946
02:55:12,405 --> 02:55:15,405
But in the prediction market context, the more people who are trading, the more liquid the market is.

1947
02:55:16,405 --> 02:55:20,405
If you go to BitcoinHivemind.com, you can watch a 20-minute video.

1948
02:55:21,405 --> 02:55:27,405
I had an Acapulco, and I have slides, and I have it carefully scripted out, so it's a pretty decent explanation.

1949
02:55:28,405 --> 02:55:37,405
But the short version is you can bet on who is likely to become a leader, but also what would happen if they were the leader.

1950
02:55:37,405 --> 02:55:44,405
So you can bet on like, if we elected this person's CEO, what would happen to the share price?

1951
02:55:45,405 --> 02:55:52,405
And it's sort of like, if we put the Republican Party in power, what would happen to the unemployment rate?

1952
02:55:53,405 --> 02:56:00,405
And so for a wide variety of reasons, one is that the margin of victory is usually narrow in an election, and most people don't vote.

1953
02:56:01,405 --> 02:56:03,405
And if you ask them why they don't vote, they say they don't know who to vote for.

1954
02:56:04,405 --> 02:56:19,405
So for a wide variety of reasons, I think this would revolutionize elections, and it would make the public democratic process more like a Friedrich Hayek market process.

1955
02:56:20,405 --> 02:56:29,405
And I think that would be a pretty big deal, and maybe like double world GDP growth or something forever, and do a bunch of other things as well.

1956
02:56:29,405 --> 02:56:43,405
So one thing is that, like an example I often use is that Barack Obama ran on closing Guantanamo Bay, and then he was elected with a super majority in the House and Senate, and he controlled the Supreme Court.

1957
02:56:44,405 --> 02:56:48,405
And yet Guantanamo Bay is still open, so it must have been a lie.

1958
02:56:49,405 --> 02:56:57,405
And so if you could have had this market on it, like will Guantanamo Bay close crossed with will Barack Obama be elected?

1959
02:56:58,405 --> 02:57:07,405
And then all the shares that were trading on both of those, like yes, he will be elected, and no, Guantanamo Bay will not be closed.

1960
02:57:08,405 --> 02:57:11,405
Those would have had value, but the yes, yes ones would have been worth nothing.

1961
02:57:11,405 --> 02:57:26,405
So I don't know if I'm doing a great job of explaining it now, but yeah, I have a – yeah, like Hivemind or Truthcoin as it used to be called is I think a really good idea for the world and for Bitcoin.

1962
02:57:27,405 --> 02:57:32,405
And yeah, certainly if I could do it over, I would not have waited for sidechains probably at all.

1963
02:57:32,405 --> 02:57:44,405
So it is literally the exact opposite of whoever says that it's only because of my determination to add the project to Bitcoin as a non-chipcoin.

1964
02:57:45,405 --> 02:57:53,405
That is the whole reason why this project exists, so it's literally the exact opposite of whatever whoever would say that.

1965
02:57:54,405 --> 02:58:03,405
But yeah, I think that's a great project, and it's very, very popular among OGs and certain people like Fiatjaf, certain people who know about it.

1966
02:58:04,405 --> 02:58:07,405
They know about all the details of it. They're very interested in it.

1967
02:58:08,405 --> 02:58:15,405
We currently are rewriting it in Rust, so if you love Rust, this will exist.

1968
02:58:16,405 --> 02:58:27,405
Because the old version was like a fork of Bitcoin like 1099 or something from like a billion years ago, which was just like a demo testnet.

1969
02:58:28,405 --> 02:58:32,405
And so yeah, I think that's a pretty cool project.

1970
02:58:33,405 --> 02:58:47,405
If you went to bitcoinhivemind.com and watched the little video, you would see what the point of it is and why I think it's kind of much more important to work on that than anything else that exists on planet Earth.

1971
02:58:48,405 --> 02:59:01,405
I mean, it's certainly a complicated idea, and there's no guarantee that it would work, but we should certainly give it a try because I think it has a high likelihood of working, and the upside would be really, really big.

1972
02:59:05,405 --> 02:59:08,405
So that's my history with that project.

1973
02:59:09,405 --> 02:59:13,405
And yeah, I built the project in 2014.

1974
02:59:14,405 --> 02:59:15,405
I wrote this paper. I was interested.

1975
02:59:16,405 --> 02:59:23,405
Intrade had closed at the end of 2012, and then I thought maybe you could do some kind of Bitcoin version of this.

1976
02:59:24,405 --> 02:59:29,405
In 2013, I was working on the code, and then in early 2014, I published this paper.

1977
02:59:30,405 --> 02:59:34,405
And then I was just kind of waiting for some way to link it to Bitcoin.

1978
02:59:34,405 --> 02:59:37,405
And then in October 2014, Blockstream published their sidechains paper.

1979
02:59:38,405 --> 02:59:39,405
And then I was like, okay, interesting.

1980
02:59:40,405 --> 02:59:45,405
And then in 2015, I did more code, and then it became time to link the code to Bitcoin.

1981
02:59:46,405 --> 02:59:49,405
And I looked into what Blockstream had done, and what they had done was basically nothing.

1982
02:59:50,405 --> 02:59:53,405
So I realized that it was deficient.

1983
02:59:54,405 --> 03:00:00,405
And that's why in November 2015, I wrote the Drivechain blog post.

1984
03:00:01,938 --> 03:00:08,658
And then the rest is a long history of like weird scaling stuff, but also of Bitcoin just becoming a big success.

1985
03:00:08,658 --> 03:00:14,058
So I was kind of like, well, Bitcoin is doing really well, so maybe who cares?

1986
03:00:14,738 --> 03:00:23,378
And it's only recently that I have pushed harder for it, because it's clear to me that actually a lot of what everyone else is doing is not going to work,

1987
03:00:23,378 --> 03:00:35,577
like with the Lightning Network, and with just our decision to just ignore everything that's happening on altcoins has changed from being totally rational and justified,

1988
03:00:35,577 --> 03:00:46,577
which it was in 2015, and it has now changed and become totally irrational and like the biggest threat to killing Bitcoin and destroying this beautiful project.

1989
03:00:46,577 --> 03:00:51,178
So now I'm kind of a little bit more assertive.

1990
03:00:51,178 --> 03:01:08,177
Do you think it's solely the block size war that changed that?

1991
03:01:08,177 --> 03:01:17,177
Because as you recall, when Blockstream released their sidechains white paper, and they announced their big fundraise,

1992
03:01:17,177 --> 03:01:25,978
which I you know, people might remember it was at the time the largest fundraising announcement in the industry's history by by more than double.

1993
03:01:25,978 --> 03:01:32,298
I think I think it was 21 million and the previous largest was BitPay had raised nine million.

1994
03:01:33,098 --> 03:01:35,338
So it was it was a very big deal.

1995
03:01:36,137 --> 03:01:39,978
And it was almost I remember the attitude was just like, oh, yeah, they have that.

1996
03:01:39,978 --> 03:01:47,777
They have, you know, the it wasn't really like there wasn't like animosity towards altcoins back then the way there is now.

1997
03:01:47,777 --> 03:01:53,698
But basically, people were like, oh, you know, they we have they have that altcoin problem solved.

1998
03:01:54,217 --> 03:01:59,658
And it was it was more of it was like fully embraced by everyone into Bitcoin.

1999
03:01:59,658 --> 03:02:08,258
And even the altcoin, I mean, even people like that were really into altcoins, everybody was just kind of thought, OK, well, that's how it's going to be.

2000
03:02:08,817 --> 03:02:10,258
Everything's going to be on Bitcoin.

2001
03:02:10,258 --> 03:02:24,098
Everybody people remember the famous Brian Armstrong tweet from like early 2015, where he's where because people were were inundating him with requests to list altcoins.

2002
03:02:24,098 --> 03:02:27,337
Actually, they weren't anything with requests to list altcoins.

2003
03:02:27,337 --> 03:02:31,898
They just wanted like coin. I think that was the only the only request that he was really getting.

2004
03:02:32,617 --> 03:02:43,617
And he wrote like a public response, which was that Bitcoin is too far ahead and everybody should focus on sidechains and Bitcoin can have all the functionality.

2005
03:02:45,337 --> 03:02:58,458
And I think I don't know why it's changed, I think I think it has something to do with like it was like Blockstream took all the air oxygen out of the room or they were like it was like their thing.

2006
03:02:58,458 --> 03:03:02,538
And then they kind of abandoned it, I think, is how I see it.

2007
03:03:02,977 --> 03:03:05,018
And so then everyone kind of just thinks like.

2008
03:03:07,497 --> 03:03:09,497
People don't know how to think about that, I think.

2009
03:03:09,538 --> 03:03:21,658
I don't know. But whatever it is, Blockstream, SPV proofs and drivechains, have there been other projects or attempts to release them?

2010
03:03:21,658 --> 03:03:30,818
There are many. Blockstream had this skip list idea that they never implemented, so they didn't even have this Appendix B thing and they never actually did it.

2011
03:03:30,857 --> 03:03:34,378
They just did a multisig output, which was liquid.

2012
03:03:34,818 --> 03:03:38,818
And at first they were very specific about this not being a real sidechain at all.

2013
03:03:40,018 --> 03:03:51,337
And they very explicitly said that this is a stopgap until the true Greg Maxwell says on video until the true two way peg can be brought to Bitcoin.

2014
03:03:51,378 --> 03:04:00,018
But then now this has all been this history has been rewritten or something that people start, you know, the liquid sidechain or whatever, which is a contradiction.

2015
03:04:00,057 --> 03:04:04,098
But but now people think of that as what sidechains are.

2016
03:04:04,098 --> 03:04:07,458
So then we get it from both ends, which people say, well, why do you need sidechains?

2017
03:04:07,458 --> 03:04:14,857
Because we already have them. So so I think they mangled the word horribly and to everyone's detriment.

2018
03:04:14,857 --> 03:04:25,418
Yeah. But, yeah, it was like a holy grail, universally popular.

2019
03:04:25,418 --> 03:04:32,538
You know, there was I think you maybe missed the beginning, Austin, but there was a guy who was new and was like, isn't this like this is like a great idea.

2020
03:04:32,578 --> 03:04:36,177
He seemed he was like it was like being back in 2015.

2021
03:04:37,177 --> 03:04:44,858
I remember the day that the white paper was released for the Blockstream sidechains.

2022
03:04:44,858 --> 03:04:54,138
It was either that day or the day that the fundraising was announced or something, which I think we're we're pretty close to each other, maybe even like one day apart.

2023
03:04:55,017 --> 03:05:08,138
The altcoin market, which, you know, had a lot of fan favorites back then, like Feathercoin and Peercoin, and maybe that was Aurora coin, although that might have been slightly before Aurora coin.

2024
03:05:08,617 --> 03:05:16,217
People might remember Aurora coin was this coin that was supposed to be airdropped to all the citizens of Iceland.

2025
03:05:16,497 --> 03:05:21,098
And it was the number two coin after Bitcoin for probably about a year.

2026
03:05:21,217 --> 03:05:26,297
Literally, it was number two for a very long time, months and months at least.

2027
03:05:27,057 --> 03:05:30,258
But now it's, you know, kind of just completely forgotten.

2028
03:05:30,698 --> 03:05:43,818
But I remember every altcoin dropped by like 30 percent that day because the market had just thought, oh, OK, this experiment's over.

2029
03:05:43,818 --> 03:05:55,737
Anyway, should we go to, I think, Flavor was Flavor first and then D3Code?

2030
03:05:56,258 --> 03:05:57,658
I think those altcoins were yours.

2031
03:05:59,457 --> 03:06:00,978
OK, well, let's do that then.

2032
03:06:01,698 --> 03:06:03,818
Oh, yeah, Sarah, Sarah Toshi.

2033
03:06:06,098 --> 03:06:07,017
Come on, bro, speak up.

2034
03:06:07,017 --> 03:06:18,258
I have one question regarding my earlier line of questioning.

2035
03:06:18,258 --> 03:06:29,057
And so in your own words, where does the opposition to BIP300 and 301 come from?

2036
03:06:32,538 --> 03:06:34,098
Well, I think it just comes from ignorance.

2037
03:06:34,098 --> 03:06:35,138
People don't understand it.

2038
03:06:35,658 --> 03:06:38,617
I think it's just like a weird idea has spread.

2039
03:06:39,337 --> 03:06:43,938
I think also the people in the technical community, people like credit.

2040
03:06:43,938 --> 03:06:45,258
The ideas all compete.

2041
03:06:45,258 --> 03:06:46,057
They like credit.

2042
03:06:46,057 --> 03:06:46,858
So they don't want.

2043
03:06:48,258 --> 03:06:55,337
It's almost the idea could be too good and then it would steal someone's thunder or something.

2044
03:06:55,337 --> 03:06:58,737
But I do think it is this is definitely a more experimental idea.

2045
03:06:58,777 --> 03:07:03,777
So I think what people have in mind is a future where one of the sidechains fails.

2046
03:07:04,777 --> 03:07:08,938
Maybe even miners just take the coins and then they think, whose idea was this?

2047
03:07:09,258 --> 03:07:11,698
Why didn't anyone stop this from happening or something?

2048
03:07:12,138 --> 03:07:15,297
So I think they have a kind of like they're like an FDA or something.

2049
03:07:15,297 --> 03:07:21,297
They have a kind of a very, very cautionary principle, even though it's the user themselves who

2050
03:07:21,297 --> 03:07:24,818
chooses to put the coins into this type of L2.

2051
03:07:25,418 --> 03:07:30,297
And what would be the difficulty of hacking a sidechain?

2052
03:07:30,418 --> 03:07:34,497
I assume there'd be less than actually hacking the L1.

2053
03:07:36,217 --> 03:07:39,057
And if a sidechain does get hacked.

2054
03:07:40,858 --> 03:07:48,337
That's going to have negative effects on a normie's perception of Bitcoin.

2055
03:07:48,578 --> 03:07:54,297
You know, if one sidechain gets hacked, it's not safe.

2056
03:07:55,098 --> 03:07:56,177
Stay away from it.

2057
03:07:58,057 --> 03:07:59,698
I think that is the case.

2058
03:07:59,698 --> 03:08:05,177
Unfortunately, but I would point out that it also we also get that even when like it has, you know,

2059
03:08:05,177 --> 03:08:09,337
when like FTX gets hacked and then people say, well, you know, Bitcoin, you know, you're just like

2060
03:08:09,337 --> 03:08:14,578
whatever, you know, if these people don't say anything, they're just I don't think anything we can do

2061
03:08:14,578 --> 03:08:17,978
will fix that. But I think you're right, though.

2062
03:08:17,978 --> 03:08:21,658
They will say, oh, there's Bitcoin in the Bitcoin, very risky, whatever.

2063
03:08:22,457 --> 03:08:22,777
Oh.

2064
03:08:26,698 --> 03:08:29,897
Anyway, let's do a D3 code.

2065
03:08:32,057 --> 03:08:39,338
Um, Paul, I'm just curious, what's your relationship like or is with Samson Mao or?

2066
03:08:41,698 --> 03:08:48,857
What is Samson? Samson Mao tried to get me to join Blockstream a lot, and I always said no, because I

2067
03:08:48,857 --> 03:08:51,617
thought everyone, the reason is very funny.

2068
03:08:51,617 --> 03:08:53,338
It's a very deeply ironic reason.

2069
03:08:53,338 --> 03:08:58,258
Now, I thought everyone, if you work for Blockstream, everyone thinks your ideas are so great, even if they

2070
03:08:58,258 --> 03:09:01,018
suck. So that was then that's what I told him.

2071
03:09:01,018 --> 03:09:02,818
And then I actually tweeted that in public.

2072
03:09:02,818 --> 03:09:11,578
So if you so if you search the tweets, I post my message with him where I say exactly that.

2073
03:09:11,578 --> 03:09:15,778
And that and then he blocked me at some point.

2074
03:09:15,778 --> 03:09:21,977
And so usually if someone blocks me, I just block them back because I just think, fine, this is what you want.

2075
03:09:22,657 --> 03:09:28,857
You got it. So I don't really know him that well.

2076
03:09:28,857 --> 03:09:33,297
I mean, I have seen him at various events and conferences, you know, so I know something about him.

2077
03:09:33,297 --> 03:09:40,737
And we did share we wrote that we even wrote some jokes together at one point when he had he is like a

2078
03:09:41,338 --> 03:09:44,537
comedian. He had this show, Magical Crypto.

2079
03:09:45,097 --> 03:09:50,898
I don't know if he remembers this, but this is like around consensus 2017 or 2016 or something like that.

2080
03:09:50,898 --> 03:09:55,338
One of those consent, maybe 20, probably consensus 2017, May in New York.

2081
03:09:56,297 --> 03:10:03,097
So I don't know him that well, but, yeah, he used to work for Blockstream and I know I know a bunch of other

2082
03:10:03,097 --> 03:10:04,218
stuff about about him.

2083
03:10:04,218 --> 03:10:10,657
And I also there's also many things that I guess about him, but that's that's the nature of the relationship as

2084
03:10:10,657 --> 03:10:11,458
far as I remember.

2085
03:10:12,458 --> 03:10:20,097
For sure. Yeah, I was just curious if you guys are somewhat friends and like bounce ideas back and stuff on back

2086
03:10:20,097 --> 03:10:20,258
to me.

2087
03:10:23,657 --> 03:10:28,698
I would not describe myself as friends with Samson Mao, per se.

2088
03:10:31,297 --> 03:10:35,737
At this time, but whatever.

2089
03:10:35,977 --> 03:10:44,537
I don't, you know, I have a very the interesting thing is I have a lot of friends who are not Bitcoiners in real

2090
03:10:44,537 --> 03:10:51,057
life, and I think this is a big strength of mine because I there's a lot of BS in this industry and I just say

2091
03:10:51,057 --> 03:10:53,177
whatever I don't put up with it.

2092
03:10:53,177 --> 03:10:58,338
So but a lot of other people do and they're more organized on Twitter, so good for them.

2093
03:10:58,338 --> 03:10:59,818
But I don't care.

2094
03:11:02,497 --> 03:11:04,258
So Flavor, should we go to you?

2095
03:11:05,778 --> 03:11:07,578
Hey, Paul, thanks for taking my question.

2096
03:11:08,737 --> 03:11:16,297
I just want to put aside all criticisms and reservations and just say in an absolute best case, radical success

2097
03:11:16,297 --> 03:11:20,458
scenario, what would drivechains do for Bitcoin?

2098
03:11:23,218 --> 03:11:30,578
I would say that we would have like the ability to scale to the entire world's transaction throughput, like within

2099
03:11:30,617 --> 03:11:37,177
one within one day, like in practice, like within a week, like word would just spread and everyone would be

2100
03:11:37,177 --> 03:11:44,938
onboard. We'd be onboarding people to L2 directly, like lots of people would send coins to the L2s, and then

2101
03:11:44,938 --> 03:11:46,737
people would be onboarded L2 to L2.

2102
03:11:46,737 --> 03:11:53,497
So we'd onboard the entire world to Bitcoin, like in a week, and everyone would have the Zcash sidechain privacy

2103
03:11:53,497 --> 03:11:59,818
mixer. And I would say the wildest best case scenario is that there's a bunch of really weird, like artistic

2104
03:11:59,818 --> 03:12:08,057
genius people who have been working on blockchains and their stuff would never survive, like the interaction

2105
03:12:08,057 --> 03:12:14,977
with the Bitcoin Core devs, who are not always the friendliest to new ideas.

2106
03:12:15,657 --> 03:12:24,417
And and also so I was saying like a bunch of like a 15 year old MIT genius artist person has some kind of crazy

2107
03:12:24,417 --> 03:12:30,938
blockchain that has these crazy features that the miners just shrug and they say, Okay, we'll just give it a try and slot

2108
03:12:31,898 --> 03:12:39,177
nine or something. And it turns out to be like really, really cool. We port, we clone the latest version of Ethereum and

2109
03:12:39,177 --> 03:12:43,778
all the stuff Ethereum just folds immediately and they just move all the contracts to the Bitcoin version of

2110
03:12:43,778 --> 03:12:53,737
Ethereum. And like, Bitcoin, you know, soars to 100% market dominance, and then it just soars to like 15-20

2111
03:12:53,737 --> 03:13:00,378
million dollars a coin and we just replace all fiat currencies. That would be like the, you know, that would be the

2112
03:13:01,138 --> 03:13:08,857
optimistic scenario. And it's like, we can ossify L1 if we do that, too. We have all this activity happening on the L2. So

2113
03:13:08,857 --> 03:13:17,458
we just we declare Bitcoin is a finished project. We hash the source code and we make t-shirts that just have the hash on it.

2114
03:13:17,458 --> 03:13:26,818
And we just say this is Bitcoin. And it's frozen in time. And L1 never changes again. And then we have just, you know,

2115
03:13:26,857 --> 03:13:31,898
perfect adoption of Bitcoin. And we also have people making cool new things like the prediction markets, my prediction

2116
03:13:31,898 --> 03:13:40,537
markets idea and the Namecoin idea, which could really change authentication on the internet. I think it's hard to

2117
03:13:40,537 --> 03:13:46,497
summarize that but I have written a post about it called BitNames. So if you search TruthCoin BitNames, you find my blog

2118
03:13:46,497 --> 03:13:54,497
probably. And that so you have a lot of examples of stuff like that. People actually using the coin to achieve self

2119
03:13:54,497 --> 03:14:01,938
sovereignty in terms of like, how you log in, how people contact you, what happens if you get deplatformed by Twitter or

2120
03:14:01,938 --> 03:14:11,018
whatever by X. So it's like all this cool stuff, people using Bitcoin, Bitcoin transaction fees for all this. This is like

2121
03:14:11,018 --> 03:14:20,898
media, attention, economy, like who should we elect, who people front bonds, people have approval reserves. So I think

2122
03:14:20,898 --> 03:14:24,778
that would be, that's the wildly optimistic scenario, I think.

2123
03:14:26,458 --> 03:14:27,737
All right, thanks for your answer.

2124
03:14:29,537 --> 03:14:30,138
Thank you.

2125
03:14:42,018 --> 03:14:47,138
Paul, would the change need to be made to Bitcoin Core itself?

2126
03:14:48,778 --> 03:14:59,378
Not necessarily. That is, in fact, with SegWit, and I think, I don't know, but I think with Speedy Trial also, I think

2127
03:14:59,378 --> 03:15:08,898
someone made a version that was almost identical. Certainly, it was the case that the SegWit UASF, that was not Bitcoin

2128
03:15:09,018 --> 03:15:20,218
Core. The UASF part was not in Bitcoin Core. And it was not even like, people in Bitcoin Core didn't agree with it. But it was,

2129
03:15:20,258 --> 03:15:26,778
there was a pressure from outside. You could say maybe it's proxies of Bitcoin Core, you know, everyone was always going to say

2130
03:15:26,778 --> 03:15:38,497
whatever their story is going to be. But that was one that was not Bitcoin Core. And then it ended up getting miners to fold

2131
03:15:38,497 --> 03:15:46,617
and agree to activate SegWit, which they did, before the UASF part would have kicked in. So there was at least a couple cases

2132
03:15:46,617 --> 03:15:52,737
where it didn't really happen that way. And there are a couple prominent people, including Francis Puyo, they say it should

2133
03:15:52,737 --> 03:15:58,898
never happen that way. You should always build, you should always release your own thing, build support for it, get people to

2134
03:15:58,898 --> 03:16:07,818
switch, and then Bitcoin Core, it will be their problem to merge compatibility with it. So some people say it should not, should

2135
03:16:07,818 --> 03:16:15,497
never go that way. Which is all that is very interesting. So but the literal requirement to activate a soft fork is something

2136
03:16:15,497 --> 03:16:26,297
like 51% of the miners plus a few critical users, like a critical minority, like probably like one or two exchanges and some

2137
03:16:26,297 --> 03:16:36,258
other people would be enough if you had also had 51%. And you had no like kind of militant opposition. But the soft fork is

2138
03:16:36,258 --> 03:16:44,138
very easy to activate. It was very unusual when SegWit didn't activate. And that was why everyone was so traumatized by it. And

2139
03:16:44,138 --> 03:16:49,898
that was why people waited so long to activate Taproot because they were so confused and traumatized by what had happened

2140
03:16:49,898 --> 03:16:58,458
before. What used to be such an easy thing, turned up, turned out to be very difficult. And that's why people overthink it

2141
03:16:58,458 --> 03:17:09,858
today. They can't just go back. They can't just go back to the way it was before SegWit. They have to really, really care about soft

2142
03:17:09,858 --> 03:17:13,498
forks or something. So they think, but mistakenly, in my view.

2143
03:17:17,177 --> 03:17:17,777
Okay, thank you.

2144
03:17:17,777 --> 03:17:31,377
Okay, this is fun. But I do think, I don't know if I can do eight hour spaces week after week after week. So it has been three hours and a

2145
03:17:31,377 --> 03:17:42,297
little. So I think that I'd like to say maybe we'll, maybe we'll give it another 12 minutes or we'll try to get last minute questions. And

2146
03:17:42,897 --> 03:17:57,498
then we'll wind it down, I think. So if you really, really want to ask a question, or you have a great comment, then come on up.

2147
03:17:57,498 --> 03:18:12,218
I have a question, Paul. If somebody is a support BIP300, and they think it's the best thing to help the Bitcoin number go up, what's the best

2148
03:18:12,257 --> 03:18:14,458
action for that person?

2149
03:18:15,458 --> 03:18:26,338
Well, we do have our, you could just tweet, I support drivechain BIP300 plus 301, which is like, and then we add a lot of those people, the

2150
03:18:26,338 --> 03:18:36,137
names to the layer two labs.com slash friends. So tweeting support is good. And countering the FUD is good. So we're going to have a page

2151
03:18:36,177 --> 03:18:45,458
soon, we're gonna have a short page that's just like, all the FUD, like FUD Q&A, which is just like the FUD, then the short answer. And then I'm

2152
03:18:45,458 --> 03:18:53,938
gonna write some longer things to like link to that page is gonna like link to like some longer anti FUD. So that's, that's good. I think

2153
03:18:53,938 --> 03:19:06,978
literally, one thing is, we have a lot of support from miners in private and some in public. But the only one who's willing to the only leader of a

2154
03:19:06,978 --> 03:19:18,017
mining pool that publicly has said, whatever that they support, that they will support activating BIP300 was Luxor. So I suppose you get

2155
03:19:18,017 --> 03:19:26,417
everyone that if you have a hash point that luck Luxor, I should say, because they're the only one who so far publicly said on Twitter that they're

2156
03:19:26,417 --> 03:19:37,297
pro BIP300 activation. So I guess that's another thing if you have hash rate. So I think countering the FUD on social media, and you know,

2157
03:19:37,297 --> 03:19:45,417
learning is good. I think it's really key to you could read the BIP. But if you just think I don't know what's going on in this document, then

2158
03:19:45,417 --> 03:19:52,377
downloading our software is good. Although we have a new version. So I'll try to update it really quickly. I always have new versions. And you've

2159
03:19:52,377 --> 03:20:01,338
got to drive to that info slash releases, you can download the software and play around with it yourself. And we're going to try to make that

2160
03:20:01,338 --> 03:20:10,698
better and better and better over time so that there's very good demo, software demo experience. And I think that's the best way to learn. And

2161
03:20:10,698 --> 03:20:21,377
that's also just a very reasonable thing to do. Because this is what you are sort of supporting. So you can get the opportunity to actually look at

2162
03:20:21,377 --> 03:20:33,698
it. And so I think those things help. And then I think one thing that actually helps me a lot is it's not good if people just randomly complain on

2163
03:20:33,698 --> 03:20:44,417
Twitter. I think it's much better if someone has some kind of critique, like what we did with Peter Todd, and we asked him to put it in a document. Then

2164
03:20:44,417 --> 03:20:52,537
they just like they never do. Or if they do, then it's actually better. Like Shinobi writes his criticism article, then it's much easier for me

2165
03:20:52,537 --> 03:21:03,297
because I just say, Okay, this is the whole thing. These are the points. So if you encounter critics, ask them to just like, write down exactly what it is

2166
03:21:03,297 --> 03:21:13,257
they mean, so that it's not just vague talking points. That is the vague talking points. I'm kind of like, this is just a waste of time to even talk about

2167
03:21:13,257 --> 03:21:20,777
this. Like, I don't know what's going on. So I don't know even I don't even know what this person means or what they think I mean. So it's better if

2168
03:21:20,777 --> 03:21:32,137
someone writes like, some kind of document like of any length, but just something that has like a beginning, a middle and an end, you know. So I think that

2169
03:21:32,137 --> 03:21:32,657
helps.

2170
03:21:32,657 --> 03:21:48,458
Sounds good, Paul. I'll make sure Saratoshi asks good questions next time. Sorry, Saratoshi. But yeah, Paul, nice to meet you, dude. I support your

2171
03:21:48,458 --> 03:22:00,017
project. I'm trying to get on board with it. I'm really curious where the OPT5 is. Is that in like the Coinbase itself? Where are we trying to make

2172
03:22:00,017 --> 03:22:04,618
this one little smidgen of a change?

2173
03:22:06,338 --> 03:22:14,818
The changes in the block validation rules. So it's in when the software runs, it downloads blocks, and it examines all those blocks carefully to make

2174
03:22:14,818 --> 03:22:30,657
sure that they are free of errors. And that is what we change from just saying OPT5 always works to OPT5 will sometimes cause the block to be invalid,

2175
03:22:30,657 --> 03:22:41,698
which is if you if you intentionally use OPT5 and you break the rules. And that is what once that is enforced by enough nodes, then those just become the

2176
03:22:41,698 --> 03:22:51,537
rules for everyone, even people who are not enforcing them, because it's just so many other people are that there's no realistic way of using OPT5 other than in this

2177
03:22:51,698 --> 03:22:59,738
this one declared way. And that is how software works. The opcodes themselves, you can search, I think you can search like Bitcoin script, and you'll get you

2178
03:22:59,738 --> 03:23:10,777
should get some kind of result that helps. Although Google, I feel really bad for the young people of today because for most of my life, Google has worked so

2179
03:23:10,777 --> 03:23:20,057
well. And I really feel like in the last two years, it's completely sucks now. And it just kills you the whole first page is garbage results. So I hope that

2180
03:23:20,057 --> 03:23:22,177
people can still find information if they're young.

2181
03:23:24,338 --> 03:23:37,057
Yeah, finding information is hard. So you're saying the the way it validates the blocks as they come in, we are looking for no OPT5. Normally, that'd be like a

2182
03:23:37,057 --> 03:23:41,698
discard, you said, but in this case, we're going to allow it to be accepted.

2183
03:23:44,578 --> 03:23:53,177
Slightly different than that. Normally, what happens is it's always allowed. So it's like a, it's like a slab of marble. You say the whole marble is here, and

2184
03:23:53,177 --> 03:23:59,858
then we're going to chip away, we're going to say it's sometimes invalid, if certain things happen. And then that's like you're chiseling away at the

2185
03:23:59,858 --> 03:24:06,618
marble, and then you have the Statue of David, or whatever is what remains. You do addition by subtraction.

2186
03:24:07,137 --> 03:24:13,938
And it's just like a fight field that we're allowing ourselves to put instructions in? Or is that what we're doing?

2187
03:24:15,017 --> 03:24:24,377
You should probably look up the Bitcoin script. Or you can go to like one thing you could do is you can go to my favorite block, it's for yoga.io, Y-O-G-H.io, and like

2188
03:24:24,377 --> 03:24:38,698
click in and find transactions, you can see all the opcodes. And so for example, every time you spend, if you spend like a transaction, like a pay to script hash, or pay like a normal

2189
03:24:38,698 --> 03:24:50,657
pay to pubkey hash transaction, it always has the same sequence of bytes in it. That's like opcube, opchecksig, whatever. So you actually see, one thing you

2190
03:24:50,657 --> 03:25:03,657
could do is I wrote a blog post called small transactions, which is unrelated, but I do explain the concept in there about every time there is a pay to pubkey hash

2191
03:25:05,057 --> 03:25:13,458
transaction, it wastes a bunch of redundant bytes and repeating the same instructions over and over again. But yeah, if you want to research some of this, I think you would

2192
03:25:13,458 --> 03:25:27,137
Yeah, I guess I have to because it's very interesting. Yeah, I mean, it looks like I've got a ton of reading up to do. We're barely scratching the surface. I appreciate the kind of direction there, at least to know where to look.

2193
03:25:29,657 --> 03:25:30,257
Yeah, cool.

2194
03:25:31,338 --> 03:25:37,137
Yeah, try to do the truth coin, search truth coin as small transactions. And then I think if you

2195
03:25:37,377 --> 03:25:50,057
read that, I have lots of links to other things. And then pictures, pictures of like, red squares around different opcodes. So then you can actually see real opcode in the wild if you on that post.

2196
03:25:50,137 --> 03:26:01,657
So yeah, this is very much interest me, because I'm trying to learn about this Bitcoin gossip protocol. And I guess these opcodes, would they be considered part of that protocol?

2197
03:26:02,657 --> 03:26:29,177
No, that's actually a different thing. But I mean, they're all related. But yeah, the gossip is like BitTorrent is like, how you figure out who is a peer. So this is like you show up, like you if you show up to, I don't know, you show up to college for your first day, and you have to figure out like, how are things done around it? Where is you know, where is my dorm?

2198
03:26:29,738 --> 03:26:35,257
Office is like figure out. So the gossip is kind of doing that you show up and the Bitcoin network, but you're like,

2199
03:26:38,858 --> 03:26:40,057
Okay, cool.

2200
03:26:42,818 --> 03:26:56,897
So in this protocol, we're taking a no op five. And is the instruction that we're going to put in that space going to be dynamic? Or is it going to be like, I mean, is it like a two byte? Is it a is it a static byte field or?

2201
03:26:57,498 --> 03:27:20,177
I think talking about that is not the op five is already interpreted by the script interpreter a certain way. And we, we tighten that a little bit. That's the marble, the slab of marble. And if you read BIP300, you view that is exactly what it does. Okay, that is the point of the text.

2202
03:27:20,997 --> 03:27:22,337
right. Sounds good.

2203
03:27:22,837 --> 03:27:23,977
Well, I'll yield the floor.

2204
03:27:24,077 --> 03:27:27,397
If anybody has any final questions, I gotta be respectful of your time.

2205
03:27:27,557 --> 03:27:28,137
know you got to run.

2206
03:27:28,537 --> 03:27:29,977
Thank you.

2207
03:27:43,457 --> 03:27:45,777
Okay, cool. Well, this has been fun.

2208
03:27:46,497 --> 03:27:50,797
This is what we would normally have counted as a really long space, but we did like a

2209
03:27:50,797 --> 03:27:52,297
few that were so long.

2210
03:27:53,077 --> 03:27:55,337
Now this is merely a three and a half hour one.

2211
03:27:55,577 --> 03:27:56,037
this is

2212
03:27:56,097 --> 03:28:01,897
like Lord of the Rings Extended Edition, first movie, now

2213
03:28:01,897 --> 03:28:02,897
a short space.

2214
03:28:03,657 --> 03:28:04,997
it was a good one.

2215
03:28:05,157 --> 03:28:08,437
So I'll see everyone next week.

2216
03:28:10,257 --> 03:28:11,977
And thanks for great space.

2217
03:28:13,057 --> 03:28:14,057
So I'll see everyone later.