1
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Thank you.

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Cool. Hello. We made it to another Friday.

3
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Hey, Paul. Sprinting into the year-end?

4
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I guess so. Merry Christmas to all.

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I talked to a lawyer yesterday, and she said,

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are you sprinting into the year-end, or are you crawling into the year-end?

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Hmm.

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I think there's lawyers and utility groups, infrastructure utility groups.

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They have the toughest sprint into year-end.

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Lawyers because everyone tries to get stuff done for tax purposes or for calendar years,

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and utilities because their budget ends December 31st.

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The money expires.

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They literally can't spend another dollar once the calendar year is over.

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Interesting. It's also so dark.

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Those lawyers are working hard.

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A lot of lawyers do complicated work and boring work also.

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So it's stressful and boring.

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That's a terrible combination.

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Yes. Well, maybe it's not boring.

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I don't know. It's boring to me.

21
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Yeah, me too.

22
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It's not like fighting with people on the Internet about Bitcoin.

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For all the good that'll do.

24
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Yeah, I don't know what...

25
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We are in an interesting...

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Well, this is going to be great with CTV.

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I mean, CTV has always been on my list of the smoking guns, so to speak,

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of like the process is broken because...

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Well, first we have 1.18, which everyone likes,

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but which no one wants to touch activation.

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So it just sits there.

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And then we have 1.19, which had enormous potential.

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And Jeremy Rubin was waiting around and then he tried to activate it.

34
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And then he had such an unfair and absurd, angry reaction that he quit Bitcoin,

35
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quit Bitcoin development and quit Bitcoin.

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And now everyone wants it back.

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So to me, this just proves that everyone was wrong to run him out of town two years ago.

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And, in fact, again, same as before,

39
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people don't even really talk about like what CTV will do,

40
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like what it will enable or what it will like cost your full node in terms of like...

41
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Why don't you take this opportunity to explain it for the...

42
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What I'm trying to highlight is that no one...

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People only care about getting their filthy fingerprints on the process.

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They don't actually care if it's delivering something.

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You know what I mean?

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It's like you're at a restaurant and it's delivering you food,

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and no one cares about the price or what the actual food is.

48
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But they want to make sure that, whatever, the chef doesn't turn on the oven without...

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I don't know.

50
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But sure, that'd be great.

51
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I mean, CTV, what it does...

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CTV Check Template Verify was one of the original names,

53
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changed the name quite a few times.

54
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Originally, it was Secure the Bag,

55
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and then there was a different name that I really liked called...

56
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Instead of Check Template Verify,

57
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it was suggested that it'd be called the Checks in the Mail

58
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because that's kind of what it did where you could spend to an output.

59
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So you send to...

60
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Basically, it's not literally an address,

61
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but it's as if you pay to an address that has the feature that that money can only go in a certain way.

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So one obvious use of this is instead of putting...

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If you want to have a big...

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If you want to pay a bunch of people, like 500 or whatever,

65
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you could broadcast the transaction that has all those outputs,

66
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takes in 80 Bitcoin,

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and then it pays 1 Bitcoin to Person A,

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1 Bitcoin to Person B,

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1 Bitcoin to Person C.

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You could do that.

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Or you can do this sort of link thing where you say,

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okay, listen, I'm paying all this money to just this tiny little code

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that's just very small, like 32-byte hash or whatever it is, tiny output.

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I'm taking...

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I know that I have to pay 1 Bitcoin to, let's call it 55 people.

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So you take in 80 Bitcoin, you pay some and change some for the fee,

77
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and then you put 55 into this little code.

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And that itself is not...

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No one kind of recognizes that as an actual Bitcoin output yet,

80
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but by the magic of CTV,

81
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you can show everyone that the only way to spend it is to pay 1 Bitcoin to this predetermined list of people.

82
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So it actually adds overhead overall,

83
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but you can time things differently,

84
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and you can shove the cost onto the most impatient person of the 55 or something like that.

85
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So hence the checks in the mail type thing where the money is there.

86
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It's not going anywhere.

87
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It's locked to this output.

88
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How would this be practically used, and why do you consider this to be a big deal?

89
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Well, I think this is...

90
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I'm more interested in the totally dysfunctional process,

91
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since it sort of affects why I think BIP300 is a bigger deal.

92
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But there's one thing that...

93
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One interesting thing about it is that Bitcoin currently has an absolutely...

94
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a very difficult to solve onboarding problem,

95
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which is to say that everyone who wants to actually get coins on the network,

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they must have their own output.

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So if you have...

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Your mailman is coming by or whatever,

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and you say, oh, Bitcoin is great.

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You should get some.

101
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They need to have an output,

102
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and this needs to be in a block in the Bitcoin blockchain.

103
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And it's just a simple...

104
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You take out a calculator and divide that each output is maybe 43 bytes.

105
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It sort of depends on the scenario.

106
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But even in absurdly optimal situations where the entire block is just one input

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and then just a giant list of outputs,

108
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you can only fit so many because it doesn't get the witness discount.

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So it's a million divided by 43,

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and that's how many people you can onboard in each block.

111
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And this is nowhere near...

112
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This takes like 100 years to onboard, or at least...

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It depends on the assumptions,

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but it takes somewhere between seven years to like 120 years.

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Seven years in the case of absurd assumptions that will never be met at all.

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To onboard everyone, for just everyone to get one output,

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which is not enough, let alone to use them and spend them and stuff.

118
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So it's just not possible for everyone in the world to switch to Bitcoin,

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which means that we hold up Bitcoin as this kind of great alternative.

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But until it actually is an alternative for most people,

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until then we have a complete...

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We're sort of hypocrites.

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So anyways, as I hopefully gave a tiny explanation with that example,

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you can kind of fix this to some extent by saying,

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okay, I can onboard...

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You could theoretically onboard very, very, very many people.

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None of them will be truthfully onboarded per se, bona fide,

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but it will be like they...

129
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You can have an output and then it will pay 3,000 people or something,

130
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and that's kind of better than nothing because then they can do other weird...

131
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And this is what ARK is.

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ARK is basically a bunch of hacks on top of that to rearrange who's getting paid.

133
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But there's another thing that's kind of...

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That's not a great example.

135
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I mean, I like CTV for its original purpose, which was the vault.

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The vault is this thing where you have your own money in this vault,

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and only small amounts can be withdrawn at a time.

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And if you want to move a big amount, there's like a second key.

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The blockchain is doing all this stuff to try to make sure that you aren't being

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held at gunpoint.

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And I think Jameson Lopp has an interesting database of Bitcoiners

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who have had their house broken into and their children held at gunpoint

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and people pulling out their teeth and all this horrible stuff.

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And that is what vaults would maybe prevent because, of course,

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if the thief gets away with it, they're encouraged to do more theft.

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But if they don't get away with it, then instead they're discouraged.

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So every time you're a victim of theft, you are actually making every other

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Bitcoiner more unsafe in addition to losing all of your money and having

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a horrible experience.

150
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So the vault thing is a pretty good idea.

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Yeah.

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So those are kind of two.

153
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But personally, I'm just more interested in, like,

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why is it the case that the process is so broken?

155
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And it's in part because, as I was saying, people really want to get there.

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They want it to go through them.

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They want to be like a…

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Everyone wants a veto.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And I think there's something that is inherently…

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Well, I think there's two things.

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Number one, it's good that the answer is always no, but that's a great

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natural immune response of the system.

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And I do think there's also, like, an aggrandization of that,

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where people enjoy…

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There's a certain attraction of personalities to saying no and, you know,

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the empowerment that that creates.

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The culture is not one that can adapt to a changing environment

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relatively quickly, for better or for worse.

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And it's…

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Obviously, Bitcoin has lost a lot of developers over the years to cultures

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that are more conducive to that kind of environment, like Ethereum,

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for example.

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And I think also with Ethereum right now, you are seeing that allowing

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for interested parties to make changes, you may end up with a structure

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that is very painful to be a part of.

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Like, with EIP-1559 and the switch to Proof of Stake,

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those two changes were not really scaling Ethereum drastically.

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It imposes extremely high costs from a fee perspective on a transactional

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blockchain or transaction-oriented blockchain for the users,

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and it enriches the holders of the token.

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And now Ethereum has this muddled scaling landscape with lots of different

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Layer 2s and more performant low-fee blockchains like Solana have an opening

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to acquire more users because users are obviously extremely sensitive to fees

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when they're doing lots of transactions.

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So I do think that that segment of Bitcoin could point to what's happening

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with Ethereum and say, look, we don't want to end up like that.

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And developer frustration is a feature, not a bug.

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Not saying that I agree with it.

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I do think, as you point out, there's an error in the process.

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But that culture does have positive ramifications.

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One thing that I always like to ramble about endlessly is the trauma of the

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scaling war and how it destroyed numerous things, including activation,

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activation being just one.

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But this is one that miners could heal if they just went back to, you know,

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if they just expressed, like, some kind of willingness to, if the miners would

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say something like, we will set aside a certain amount of time every year

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or whatever to, like, review soft forks and assess them by this one criterion

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of just do they increase transaction fees or the price of Bitcoin.

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Like, and that would be both incentive compatible, I mean, and profitable.

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And that would also be healthy for the ecosystem because people would no

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longer be like, they would have to actually bet on, they couldn't, like,

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they say, well, we can't have any, we can't activate a soft fork without

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consensus.

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And then they create the, we can't do it until everyone disagrees.

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And then they're the one person who disagrees.

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And then they say, you see, I was right.

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We didn't all agree with this.

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And then that is kind of a pointless exercise in just no one getting what

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they want, including the end user, of course, who may want the feature,

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or just a Bitcoin investor who wants Bitcoin to be a success,

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or the miner who wants more revenues and more profits.

214
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So I don't know.

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But one of the things that happened during the scaling war is that the miners

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tried to be more assertive, and then they did it in the worst way possible.

217
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And then after screwing that up, they decided to make the reverse mistake,

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I suppose, and be more unbelievably passive.

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And now I just think that the miners have evolved into a zone where they are

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so specialized that they don't, like, there's a lot of specialization.

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And so I don't know if you have any thoughts on this premise,

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that I don't know how it would work.

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But I think there are, and I have some other ideas also,

224
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but I just think that do,

225
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I'm not sure that the miners really realize that they are ruining Bitcoin

226
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development, I think, and, you know,

227
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kicking a lot of these people out to other projects and just like,

228
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how can it be logical that Jeremy Rubin can quit?

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And now everyone likes the idea.

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I mean, what, how is it not just an indictment of the process?

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And similarly.

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Yeah.

233
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I mean, no, I think you're spot on.

234
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And I do see the culture changing in the last two years,

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call it since publicly traded Bitcoin mining companies started to really

236
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become a thing.

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The growth of Western companies representing large portions of hash rate

238
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has been, it has gone from a minority to a majority.

239
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And so the relationship between the developer and the miner is,

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it's becoming closer.

241
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They're attending the same conferences, you know,

242
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they're meeting each other face to face.

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And I know that there are other miners like Cormen who are becoming much more

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involved in this.

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I've been having conversations and, you know,

246
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it's going to take some time,

247
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but now that all of these people can speak the same language and,

248
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and meet each other in person and have a few beers or a meal every once in a

249
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while, I think it'll be a lot easier to move the ball forward.

250
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But I think that point that you raised is a really good point.

251
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Like if you were to make that claim and say miners are complicit in not,

252
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and you wouldn't even really say miners,

253
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you would probably say pools are complicit in not creating an environment that

254
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fosters at least a reasonable pace of Bitcoin development and Bitcoin improvement.

255
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Because it would be ultimately the most miners are represented by pools and the

256
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pools are actually creating the block templates.

257
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If there were a process by which a miner could signal without requiring their

258
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pool to change software,

259
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do you think that that would be an improvement on the current state of affairs?

260
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Because it's not necessarily the miners because they're not going in and creating

261
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these block templates.

262
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The only public miner who has their own pool is Marathon.

263
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Well, I think that the issue is really that the kind of like the pools,

264
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I think they don't really understand exactly.

265
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Everyone seems very confused about what to do.

266
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And they seem very, there's a lot of disagreement over even simple facts about

267
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like whether or not miners must upgrade in order to activate a soft fork or

268
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not. That's the only thing that's both necessary and sufficient for like 55%,

269
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51% of miners to upgrade via soft fork.

270
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And then of course a soft fork, it does not, if it's a true soft fork,

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it does not affect the old nodes.

272
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So the old nodes do not need to upgrade.

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Of course, this is very contentious by people like Luke Dashjr.

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They don't, you know, they don't agree with that,

275
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but it's very rare for people to agree.

276
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I would kind of think it would be a big improvement.

277
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Like, yeah, I think the miners should not change the software.

278
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Miners should upgrade very rarely and should not change the software unless.

279
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It's really important. And I think they probably don't want to touch. No one wants to touch the setup. So that part is very aligned. I just think maybe they should just talk in a different way that just says like, here's what we're looking at. And they should have some kind of like clear criterion. You know what I mean? It can't just be that it's a fancy piece of engineering.

280
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But if it's, it can't be like, we like this developer or we like this thing. It has to just be like, we think this will increase our profits. So then who's going to second guess them then? Because that's a pretty normal thing to do. And you just say, well, we'll just make the price of Bitcoin. I mean, like you could make a case for every single one of the soft forks. All of them, they were so simple.

281
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I mean, maybe with the exception of Taproot, but probably not. And even SegWit with the block size increase, but almost certainly not. Because with SegWit, you would just say, this is going to enable a much better lightning network. And we think that a Bitcoin, that BTC that has the lightning network is just better than one that doesn't have that option. And so this would be, you know, malleability was a clear error.

282
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There's no way it was intended and it was messing things up. And plenty of people had blamed, Mt. Gox blamed that for their, the hack that destroyed them. A lot of opinions differ on whether or not that is plausible. But, but so the point is, each of these soft forks, you know, if there was like a, some kind of process that made sense to everyone, I think that would be, that would just be better.

283
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And the process can just be, we want to make money. They want more fees. They want more higher exchange rate. So obviously that includes a lot of stuff. Like you can't have a soft fork that will just ruin some previous use, some already existing use case, but everyone already agrees about that.

284
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That's the thing is no, no one actually cares about the content of any of these things. They just want to insert themselves and feel like, you know, this is my, you're not going to touch my Bitcoin. And a lot of people, you know, they've sold books or conferences or whatever, where they just say Bitcoin is already perfect.

285
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And so, so it's actually all that stuff is unhealthy and we actually have to get rid of that. But I think just first on the list would just be to just have the mining pools. Like, you know, it's like you have to like admit that there's a problem. Like it's not good to be so it's sort of a form of neglect in a way or negligence. Yeah.

286
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Because this process has just been going ever. There was, there was a previous era where we did 16 or 17 soft forks before SegWit. And in that era, there was really no controversy. And so there was no need to have some kind of like, I mean, there was not, it was just, it was a 95% threshold because you didn't want any miners to accidentally be left behind.

287
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So it was kind of just a courtesy for everyone. So everyone would know, this is how about how long it takes for people to upgrade their software.

288
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So it wasn't really like intended as a vote or as a governance process. And it was. So that's why it was 95 in the past. And in that era, we did very many. But now after the block size war, we've only done to SegWit and Taproot in basically the same number of years.

289
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Maybe even more so.

290
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So the ratio has plummeted. And the question is, is that, you know, we're all going to pretend like it's working because I don't think that it is. But a lot, a lot of people say, sure, it's great. A Bitcoin is perfect.

291
00:24:07,188 --> 00:24:22,188
We can't fix it. 21 million infinite infinity divided by 21 million. It doesn't matter that there's no plan to scale. It doesn't matter that people use custodial lightning and that wallet of Satoshi is pulled, you know, like from US customers.

292
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It doesn't matter that, you know, all the lightning people are quitting. It doesn't matter that all these altcoins are now doing all these R&D and that people have stopped using the word Bitcoin.

293
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People used to only use the word Bitcoin. And now crypto is the big word. Like, I don't know. I just think it's an unnecessary risk. So I just think that the first step is admitting you have a problem, but maybe mining pools disagree.

294
00:24:51,188 --> 00:25:09,188
I mean, doesn't it? But this is why I say smoking gun, because I say it's a situation where Jeremy puts out 119. It's a perfectly harmless, perfectly good idea that he's going to front. He does all the work for this. He invents it. He codes it. He makes his website.

295
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He's doing all the work, really, and getting all this, you know, let's call it peer review. It's a euphemism. Abuse and even threats. He has had, you know, some of this he has shared with me that he is like some of the things he had to forward to the FBI and anti-Semitic abuse.

296
00:25:36,188 --> 00:25:55,188
So he's doing all this for free. And then all to produce an idea that people will later determine is necessary for ARK, necessary for onboarding. If we don't do BIP300, it's the only thing that will possibly onboard people to actual Bitcoin. So far out of everything proposed. I mean, other than things that are very similar, such as TxHash.

297
00:25:56,188 --> 00:26:22,188
And so this is the idea that he produces. And then he tries to further do the hard work required to get it activated. And he has run out of town and then quits. And then now everyone says it's the best thing ever and we need to do it. So kind of like at a certain point, yeah, you kind of think like the miners are hanging people out to dry here because they could just at any moment.

298
00:26:22,188 --> 00:26:51,188
Well, let's stop him and break down. Like there's personal abuse that he's enduring from trying to improve Bitcoin within the lane of his expertise. And then there's like a more passive harm, I guess you could say, that is occurring where the beneficiaries potentially of some of these changes.

299
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By improving Bitcoin's monetary utility. I'm talking about the miners. They may not even be aware that this is happening. They're not aware that they're being asked to vote for something or research something and form an opinion and signal that it's something that they believe is useful.

300
00:27:10,188 --> 00:27:28,188
And neither are the users. I mean, neither the users nor the miners are being solicited in a way to opine on these changes or understand these changes.

301
00:27:29,188 --> 00:27:53,188
Well, it's just like there's an anarchy. There is no governance because there's a lot, there's very many directions, because that's a very important point. It's almost even more extreme than that, because you say neither are the users, but then it's actually it turns out that it's very clear that most users also have no idea.

302
00:27:54,188 --> 00:28:12,188
Like the people who are signaling for SegWit and for Taproot. These would be that you would think the informed people, but many of these people that clearly had no idea. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, I can give many examples, but many people signaling for SegWit had no idea it was a block size increase.

303
00:28:12,188 --> 00:28:32,188
People still think it makes the transactions packed in more efficiently when they're actually more inefficient. For Taproot, people are describing it as like a smart contract upgrade and that it would improve privacy, which it only does in this extremely limited lightning interpretation, which is not like, you know, it's not like ring signatures or something.

304
00:28:33,188 --> 00:28:57,188
So I think it's a lot. Many of the users don't understand. And I don't know if it's the type of thing where people outside of the area of expertise will be able to understand. I'm kind of bearish on that idea also. So it's quite a little bit of a mystery.

305
00:28:57,188 --> 00:29:15,188
And so the idea of soliciting miners, this goes back to the scaling war where that is what the large blockers tried to do for their hard fork. And as a result, it became seen as sort of scandalous to solicit miners.

306
00:29:15,188 --> 00:29:37,188
But then this in a way, then the miners are also kind of responsible for or someone, I don't know how to phrase it, but it's like you have it. It's like, you know, it's a catch 22. It's like you're not being told you are being told. Should anyone tell anyone? Should people say nothing?

307
00:29:37,188 --> 00:29:51,188
Ultimately, what's best for the project is if definitely more reliable knowledge is created and diffuses among all the different participants. So I don't know how to make that happen.

308
00:29:52,188 --> 00:30:14,188
Yes. I mean, that seems to be the key problem. Ignorance, I would say, is the key problem here, right? It is that there's no method for Bitcoin users to receive this information and vote. It's not organized in a way that's easy to access. And the same is true for miners.

309
00:30:15,188 --> 00:30:42,188
It's weird also that launching a new coin is also seen as like an unforgivable crime. Although I now kind of think that that is what everyone should do. Like you should just launch 119 coin. It should just like exist because that's the best test. But this is also seen as like that would be seen as like an unforgivable betrayal of Bitcoin.

310
00:30:43,188 --> 00:30:57,188
It's just baffling. Like, you know, it is. It's really because, you know, it also would be considered an unforgivable betrayal of Bitcoin would be if you if you actually knew you had the technical knowledge and you did nothing as Bitcoin was sort of replaced by something else. And then the project was defeated.

311
00:30:58,188 --> 00:31:24,188
You could create a Bitcoin governance token where if users went and and reviewed some governance proposals and some BIPs and and then they signed a transaction that included their vote in a way that was easy to to signal and they voted on chain.

312
00:31:24,188 --> 00:31:46,188
If they did that, then they could get some kind of token. And that would probably get people to vote. People will do anything for tokens. But really, those people are not Bitcoiners. Or if they are Bitcoiners, they have to hide their love for shit coins for fear of expulsion from the.

313
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Yeah, I think what certainly strikes me that it's something like the FDA. We have like a kind of a problem like that where.

314
00:31:55,188 --> 00:32:11,188
It's like if you vouch for something and it's bad, you get the blame versus if you if you are too cautious, then at least you look like you can virtue signal.

315
00:32:11,188 --> 00:32:22,188
So you look like you really care about protecting Bitcoin. And so you get a lot of brownie points for that. So in a way, I don't know. We need something that kind of like.

316
00:32:23,188 --> 00:32:47,188
Would you know anyone who looks like they're caring about Bitcoin is like you have to like kind of like correct for this bias somehow, but I don't know if it's how feasible it is, but something like all the people who opposed CTV would just be like, you know, disenfranchised to like the people two years ago who were against it.

317
00:32:48,188 --> 00:32:51,188
But I don't know if that would be that's the right way to go either.

318
00:32:52,188 --> 00:33:00,188
It definitely should come from the miners. And if you think about it right now, mining is more decentralized.

319
00:33:01,188 --> 00:33:15,188
Then it has ever been. And I know that's a super controversial statement, but let's let's examine pre 2020 versus post 2020 equity ownership in mining companies.

320
00:33:16,188 --> 00:33:40,188
Pre 2020, those the equity ownership in those companies was probably concentrated amongst a handful of wealthy Chinese fellows, some Western and international participants, but still, you know, I would wager not many of those companies had more than 300 shareholders.

321
00:33:41,188 --> 00:33:59,188
Now, Riot and Marathon alone, and probably CleanSpark have millions of shareholders represented by the index funds that own them.

322
00:34:00,188 --> 00:34:11,188
And so the actual ownership of the equity of Bitcoin miners has skyrocketed to now exponential number.

323
00:34:12,188 --> 00:34:31,188
And perhaps the way to address some of these governance challenges is through corporate law and Delaware corporate law in America, where you put it to vote, put it to a shareholder vote.

324
00:34:32,188 --> 00:34:34,188
That'd be that'd be an interesting way to solve the problem.

325
00:34:35,188 --> 00:34:45,188
Go and put a bunch of endorsement of various, a variety of different BIPs on the shareholder agenda for Riot and Marathon and see what the shareholders think.

326
00:34:46,188 --> 00:34:54,188
It might be but you know, I studied a little bit of corporate governance back in school for what that's worth, which is not very much.

327
00:34:55,188 --> 00:35:10,188
But it's like, you know, the sort of what you might call the voter turnout rate is very low and I would get things to I owned like US Steel at one point and they'd send you like something and it's like vote on the board of directors vote on whatever and you just like, you know, you just throw it away.

328
00:35:11,188 --> 00:35:19,188
You don't really like because you don't you throw it away because you have a small percentage of the vote and also because you know, you just say, I admit that I don't.

329
00:35:20,188 --> 00:35:28,188
I don't actually have enough information about this esoteric matter. And my vote is as likely to do harm as it is to do good.

330
00:35:29,188 --> 00:35:32,188
So that that could be a good idea.

331
00:35:33,188 --> 00:35:36,188
Or it could just be the same problem of uninformed people.

332
00:35:36,188 --> 00:35:45,188
I don't know. I think maybe we're just brainstorming here. There's no bad ideas.

333
00:35:46,188 --> 00:35:56,188
So that's that at least I mean, I think from the miners is the way to go because everything else is has extremely suspect ulterior motives.

334
00:35:57,188 --> 00:36:07,188
Like, what is everyone? What are these people doing? Like, whereas the miners, it's kind of cut and dry. They want to make more money while mining Bitcoin.

335
00:36:08,188 --> 00:36:12,188
So so that's that's at least something versus nothing.

336
00:36:13,188 --> 00:36:19,188
I think maybe they could form like a kind of research group or something.

337
00:36:20,188 --> 00:36:23,188
And then they would not it could never be like totally one sided.

338
00:36:24,188 --> 00:36:28,188
It would be very adversarial where they have like devil's advocate and stuff like that.

339
00:36:29,188 --> 00:36:33,188
But I think that would be kind of a good that would be a very positive development.

340
00:36:34,188 --> 00:36:46,188
I think I think I certainly agree with you that there's no way that miners realize the probably the enormous amount of pointless damage they're causing by kind of staying out of it.

341
00:36:47,188 --> 00:36:52,188
And also the amount of money they are leaving on the table by by staying out of it.

342
00:36:53,188 --> 00:36:59,188
And so maybe a really healthy development would be like some of these mining conventions that meet once a year or twice a year.

343
00:36:59,188 --> 00:37:01,188
They just like bolt in.

344
00:37:02,188 --> 00:37:05,188
See, the thing is, these software things are sort of more collective.

345
00:37:06,188 --> 00:37:11,188
It's like all the 51 percent of the network must upgrade versus the other things are more competitive.

346
00:37:12,188 --> 00:37:17,188
Like this different immersion cooling machine or, you know, whatever, different ASIC.

347
00:37:18,188 --> 00:37:21,188
So so there's a little bit of a different flavor of a kind of thing.

348
00:37:22,188 --> 00:37:25,188
But I think that would be that's definitely worth doing.

349
00:37:25,188 --> 00:37:32,188
I mean, we're not even at the point, though, where most most miners don't realize like that, why that would even, you know, help them.

350
00:37:33,188 --> 00:37:37,188
I think I think everyone's just focused on electricity price.

351
00:37:38,188 --> 00:37:39,188
You know, hash price or whatever.

352
00:37:40,188 --> 00:37:42,188
So so I'm not sure.

353
00:37:43,188 --> 00:37:45,188
It seems like there's a question here.

354
00:37:47,188 --> 00:37:51,188
Why not talk about CoreDAO.org?

355
00:37:52,188 --> 00:37:55,188
Why not talk about CoreDAO.org?

356
00:37:56,188 --> 00:37:57,188
It seems like it's a shit coin.

357
00:37:59,188 --> 00:38:00,188
Wow.

358
00:38:01,188 --> 00:38:02,188
Maybe it helps, whatever it is.

359
00:38:03,188 --> 00:38:04,188
I'm not sure.

360
00:38:04,188 --> 00:38:14,188
It has 2.1 million Twitter followers and it is a Bitcoin powered EVM compatible blockchain that combines delegated proof of work and delegated proof of stake.

361
00:38:15,188 --> 00:38:16,188
Great.

362
00:38:16,188 --> 00:38:17,188
They got a free commercial.

363
00:38:17,188 --> 00:38:18,188
Well, I mean, that's a big deal.

364
00:38:19,188 --> 00:38:23,188
If they've got two million followers, why are they slumming it down here with us?

365
00:38:23,188 --> 00:38:24,188
I don't know.

366
00:38:25,188 --> 00:38:36,188
Actually, I've seen this before because somebody messaged me this in a telegram chat and said, holy shit, these guys have 2.1 million followers and no one had ever heard of them.

367
00:38:39,188 --> 00:38:41,188
I'm struggling to remember anything specific about this.

368
00:38:42,188 --> 00:38:44,188
You know, there's been many, many DAOs.

369
00:38:44,188 --> 00:38:45,188
Throughout the years.

370
00:38:46,188 --> 00:38:51,188
None as funny as the DAO, which was one of the funniest things ever to happen.

371
00:38:52,188 --> 00:38:54,188
But back in 2016.

372
00:38:56,188 --> 00:38:57,188
But yeah, I don't know.

373
00:38:57,188 --> 00:38:59,188
It's like all ideas.

374
00:38:59,188 --> 00:39:06,188
We should, we should let people try it and we should also just not bank on it succeeding.

375
00:39:08,188 --> 00:39:10,188
But yeah, I don't know.

376
00:39:11,188 --> 00:39:12,188
But yeah, I don't know.

377
00:39:13,188 --> 00:39:16,188
Yeah, these DAO things end up having people like this, like voting.

378
00:39:19,188 --> 00:39:26,188
The type of thing that is needed is someone needs to get outsized credit for being the first to adopt an idea that is good.

379
00:39:26,188 --> 00:39:28,188
First, a champion idea that is unpopular, but good.

380
00:39:29,188 --> 00:39:32,188
And then we need all the people who like a prediction market type thing.

381
00:39:33,188 --> 00:39:37,188
I don't know if that would be for this case, but I'm just saying it has the property that.

382
00:39:38,188 --> 00:39:46,188
A couple of pivotal people shifted from being unpopular to popular and then they should get all the credit.

383
00:39:47,188 --> 00:39:54,188
And then people should lose credit if they say, if they are shooting down an idea and then later it turns out to be inaccurate.

384
00:39:55,188 --> 00:40:00,188
They should not be given any credit for being like extra careful or whatever.

385
00:40:00,188 --> 00:40:03,188
They should just be told, no, this person was wrong.

386
00:40:03,980 --> 00:40:08,940
And the fact that they were wrong early just means that they're worse.

387
00:40:09,140 --> 00:40:12,220
They're a worse person. They derailed the process longer.

388
00:40:12,420 --> 00:40:16,580
So that's the type of thing that I think would fix the.

389
00:40:16,780 --> 00:40:19,300
But I agree with you that why even do it?

390
00:40:19,300 --> 00:40:21,580
Like, why care about what happens on social media?

391
00:40:21,779 --> 00:40:26,140
Shouldn't the miners just want to

392
00:40:27,380 --> 00:40:32,699
take responsibility for this since it directly affects how much money they will get?

393
00:40:32,939 --> 00:40:35,260
Yeah, it could potentially destroy, you know,

394
00:40:35,460 --> 00:40:38,619
it's a remote possibility, but it's possible that I mean,

395
00:40:38,820 --> 00:40:43,579
if we get more and more dysfunctional every year and all these other projects

396
00:40:43,779 --> 00:40:47,099
are trying very hard, as hard as they can to take over the world.

397
00:40:47,099 --> 00:40:50,540
And everyone's learning more about blockchain technology and hardware and

398
00:40:50,739 --> 00:40:54,540
everything is changing. Yeah, I think it would only be a matter of time before.

399
00:40:54,739 --> 00:40:58,820
We've got to get a USTT is more popular than Bitcoin.

400
00:40:58,820 --> 00:41:00,540
UIA.

401
00:41:01,540 --> 00:41:05,540
UIA asks, what about BIP16?

402
00:41:05,739 --> 00:41:08,980
He wants to hear some commentary on BIP16.

403
00:41:09,179 --> 00:41:13,179
Wow, you know, I thought I knew all the BIPs like the back of my hand,

404
00:41:13,380 --> 00:41:17,579
but BIP16, I'm going to have to maybe look that one up and refresh my memory.

405
00:41:17,780 --> 00:41:19,819
Let me see. It's already been activated.

406
00:41:20,020 --> 00:41:24,980
It's the P2SH output.

407
00:41:25,179 --> 00:41:27,060
Ah, yes, yes, it is.

408
00:41:27,300 --> 00:41:28,700
I wonder what the question is.

409
00:41:28,899 --> 00:41:31,300
OK, I think probably what they're referring

410
00:41:31,499 --> 00:41:36,179
to is this one had a very funny story about it was sort of rushed.

411
00:41:36,380 --> 00:41:41,819
And as a result, there is a couple of mistakes and little bugs in it.

412
00:41:42,020 --> 00:41:45,380
And it's it has many hilarious features,

413
00:41:45,579 --> 00:41:50,300
but it's just sometimes held up as an example of not of not of how not to soft

414
00:41:50,499 --> 00:41:56,899
fork and if memory serves, this is the one that people tried

415
00:41:57,100 --> 00:42:00,179
to activate by a flag day, like on a certain day.

416
00:42:00,380 --> 00:42:04,020
But it not enough miners had upgraded by then,

417
00:42:04,020 --> 00:42:06,219
so they just pushed it back to a different day.

418
00:42:06,420 --> 00:42:10,219
So this is a very funny example where this is like one of the times when it was not

419
00:42:10,420 --> 00:42:14,099
miner signal activated, but it ended up being de facto.

420
00:42:14,300 --> 00:42:17,739
I'm not sure which of the many facets of this BIP.

421
00:42:17,940 --> 00:42:19,060
I don't remember.

422
00:42:19,259 --> 00:42:22,819
I don't know what the person is interested in.

423
00:42:23,019 --> 00:42:26,379
Inquiring about the most.

424
00:42:27,060 --> 00:42:28,060
Let me see here.

425
00:42:30,259 --> 00:42:35,659
I believe that's the context under which the question is asked, is this this is

426
00:42:35,860 --> 00:42:41,739
a reference to why you shouldn't soft fork?

427
00:42:41,940 --> 00:42:44,420
Well, I mean, I don't know if anyone would say that.

428
00:42:44,619 --> 00:42:48,619
We have no P2SH, we'd have no multi-sig, we would never have gotten down.

429
00:42:48,619 --> 00:42:51,019
We've never started down the path of lightning at all.

430
00:42:51,220 --> 00:42:52,819
So I don't know if anyone would say that.

431
00:42:53,019 --> 00:42:54,140
Plenty of people use it.

432
00:42:54,459 --> 00:42:56,300
So I don't know if anyone would say that.

433
00:42:56,500 --> 00:42:58,420
Plenty of people use P2SH and they're

434
00:42:58,619 --> 00:43:03,140
very happy users of it since 2013, you know, back when it activated.

435
00:43:03,340 --> 00:43:04,580
So.

436
00:43:05,300 --> 00:43:08,340
So that's certainly

437
00:43:08,539 --> 00:43:09,819
I don't know if anyone would say that.

438
00:43:09,860 --> 00:43:12,140
I mean, I would almost say it's the reverse again.

439
00:43:12,340 --> 00:43:14,780
You could reverse, reverse, reverse like an Uno game.

440
00:43:14,980 --> 00:43:19,459
But you could almost say, well, that was the worst thing that ever happened.

441
00:43:19,459 --> 00:43:20,819
And it really wasn't that bad at all.

442
00:43:21,019 --> 00:43:23,819
We still got something out of it and we could just.

443
00:43:24,019 --> 00:43:27,780
We could just do we could just do a different.

444
00:43:27,980 --> 00:43:30,140
You know, pay to script hash and we did

445
00:43:30,140 --> 00:43:34,580
with SegWit, there was pay to witness script hash, so it's like it's not like.

446
00:43:35,179 --> 00:43:37,500
You know, it's not like anyone died over this.

447
00:43:37,700 --> 00:43:42,899
It's just like we had like a kind of quirky thing for a little while,

448
00:43:43,099 --> 00:43:48,060
but something that worked for and probably, you know, all the big stuff is

449
00:43:48,060 --> 00:43:53,539
secured with multi-sig and every lightning channel is a two or two multi-sig.

450
00:43:53,739 --> 00:43:56,819
So there would be a, you know, a SegWit one after SegWit.

451
00:43:57,019 --> 00:43:58,220
But

452
00:43:59,539 --> 00:44:03,899
I'm just trying to paint a picture that it's not exactly a.

453
00:44:04,099 --> 00:44:05,980
That was better than what we have now.

454
00:44:06,179 --> 00:44:08,140
I would much rather have that.

455
00:44:08,340 --> 00:44:09,899
I mean, wouldn't everyone? I don't know.

456
00:44:09,899 --> 00:44:13,099
Is it really like this is what we're going to do is it's going to be like this

457
00:44:13,300 --> 00:44:16,379
is extremely academic, clean room style thing.

458
00:44:16,379 --> 00:44:20,140
And we're going to try so, so, so, so hard to make it free of bugs.

459
00:44:20,339 --> 00:44:22,740
And then it's.

460
00:44:24,059 --> 00:44:25,620
And then it will still have unintended

461
00:44:25,819 --> 00:44:28,860
consequences, so.

462
00:44:29,059 --> 00:44:30,819
So, yeah, I don't know.

463
00:44:32,779 --> 00:44:35,460
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing is like.

464
00:44:36,779 --> 00:44:39,020
Yes, it was sloppy, it may have been sloppy

465
00:44:39,219 --> 00:44:42,020
and yes, there may have been bugs, but.

466
00:44:42,219 --> 00:44:43,900
Ultimately.

467
00:44:44,460 --> 00:44:48,740
Valuable thing to add strength in Bitcoin and.

468
00:44:50,259 --> 00:44:56,099
Most people were unaffected by any of those issues.

469
00:44:58,779 --> 00:45:01,379
Now, something like drivechains.

470
00:45:01,580 --> 00:45:03,939
You can understand why.

471
00:45:04,140 --> 00:45:08,099
You know, that's it's a bit it's a bit more controversial and it does seem to be

472
00:45:08,300 --> 00:45:12,900
touching on a third rail of controversy, which for better or worse is,

473
00:45:13,099 --> 00:45:14,300
I think.

474
00:45:14,499 --> 00:45:16,740
Pretty misunderstood,

475
00:45:17,539 --> 00:45:23,499
which is the mining incentive and and tinkering with the mining incentive

476
00:45:24,460 --> 00:45:26,339
apart from.

477
00:45:26,580 --> 00:45:29,700
Its existence in current form.

478
00:45:31,499 --> 00:45:34,900
Now, when you listen to someone like Peter Todd say

479
00:45:35,099 --> 00:45:39,300
mining pools need to be decentralized and mining needs to be as decentralized as

480
00:45:39,300 --> 00:45:44,020
possible, Peter Todd is and I know you and Peter Todd

481
00:45:44,219 --> 00:45:47,620
are very adversarial and just go on the record here.

482
00:45:47,819 --> 00:45:50,259
I mean, Peter Todd is is thinking about

483
00:45:50,460 --> 00:45:57,180
Bitcoin in the lens of twenty twenty twelve Bitcoin, where the idea of a small

484
00:45:57,379 --> 00:46:03,779
user mining and and that, you know, the consensus being made up of.

485
00:46:03,980 --> 00:46:05,499
Hundreds of thousands or millions

486
00:46:05,499 --> 00:46:09,659
of small miners who are running a few machines.

487
00:46:10,379 --> 00:46:13,059
That is really an outdated notion.

488
00:46:13,259 --> 00:46:16,379
And to

489
00:46:16,580 --> 00:46:21,900
to contemplate the strategic roadmap and strategic vision for Bitcoin.

490
00:46:22,099 --> 00:46:28,900
And be anchored into those notions is it's really ignoring the present reality,

491
00:46:29,099 --> 00:46:32,900
and so it seems to me very counterproductive.

492
00:46:33,140 --> 00:46:37,740
So I just want to give a few points on this to sort of explain my perspective as

493
00:46:37,939 --> 00:46:42,580
as an operator in a mining company, the Coleman has an exahash of mining

494
00:46:42,779 --> 00:46:46,659
capacity, we're still relatively small compared to some of the mining giants out

495
00:46:46,860 --> 00:46:52,259
there, but, you know, the minimum viable scale.

496
00:46:52,460 --> 00:46:58,499
In order to be able to pay a price for mining rigs where you will have a chance

497
00:46:58,700 --> 00:47:02,099
of earning a better return than you would from just buying Bitcoin

498
00:47:02,300 --> 00:47:06,460
is probably three hundred to five hundred petash.

499
00:47:06,659 --> 00:47:08,580
The minimum viable scale to get an

500
00:47:08,779 --> 00:47:13,980
electricity cost where you will be able to mine profitably and survive through

501
00:47:14,180 --> 00:47:20,980
halvings and and periods of reduced mining difficulty or mining profitability is

502
00:47:21,180 --> 00:47:24,620
similar on in your debate with him.

503
00:47:24,819 --> 00:47:26,819
Paul, Peter says.

504
00:47:27,020 --> 00:47:28,620
And all these biblical names, very funny

505
00:47:28,620 --> 00:47:29,939
talking about you, too.

506
00:47:30,140 --> 00:47:35,300
But he says, you know, energy is inherently distributed and solar power is

507
00:47:35,499 --> 00:47:39,499
everywhere. Anybody can can build solar and the sun

508
00:47:39,499 --> 00:47:40,700
shines all over the world.

509
00:47:40,900 --> 00:47:43,939
And this is just it's a great the reason why I bring it up is it's a great example

510
00:47:44,140 --> 00:47:48,460
of why he's thinking about this in such a naive way.

511
00:47:48,659 --> 00:47:51,099
It's completely unconstrained by the

512
00:47:51,300 --> 00:47:55,740
realities of corporate formation and entity formation.

513
00:47:55,900 --> 00:47:58,860
The cost of having like a minimum viable

514
00:47:59,059 --> 00:48:03,379
financial organization or a minimum viable energy procurement strategy

515
00:48:03,580 --> 00:48:05,620
now saying solar is widely available.

516
00:48:05,819 --> 00:48:07,740
You want to talk about decentralizing mining.

517
00:48:07,939 --> 00:48:09,499
If you want to buy a megawatt of solar

518
00:48:09,700 --> 00:48:14,620
panels, which is less than 100, well.

519
00:48:14,819 --> 00:48:18,379
It's less than 100 petahash at current prices.

520
00:48:18,580 --> 00:48:20,339
That's a million bucks right there.

521
00:48:20,539 --> 00:48:22,779
And you're only getting eight hours of power a day.

522
00:48:22,980 --> 00:48:28,259
So so to say, oh, well, so the sun is ubiquitous and solar is everywhere.

523
00:48:28,460 --> 00:48:31,499
And so, you know, energy is naturally decentralized.

524
00:48:31,700 --> 00:48:35,620
You ignore the fact that energy generation is not.

525
00:48:35,819 --> 00:48:38,139
And investing in energy generation,

526
00:48:38,339 --> 00:48:43,060
investing in the infrastructure required to either build your own generation or

527
00:48:43,260 --> 00:48:46,620
access a wholesale electricity market is a seven figure investment.

528
00:48:46,820 --> 00:48:51,180
No matter who you are, where you are, it just does not occur otherwise.

529
00:48:51,339 --> 00:48:55,740
And so the reality is, is that mining is centralized.

530
00:48:55,940 --> 00:48:59,019
It's a it's a kind of a dirty secret.

531
00:48:59,219 --> 00:49:02,659
But economies of scale, miner pricing,

532
00:49:02,860 --> 00:49:07,260
electricity costs and operating costs to run a small enterprise.

533
00:49:07,459 --> 00:49:10,579
Those things are tremendously centralizing forces.

534
00:49:10,779 --> 00:49:13,659
And it's OK that mining is slightly

535
00:49:13,860 --> 00:49:17,980
centralized because the incentive alignment between miners and the protocol

536
00:49:17,980 --> 00:49:22,339
is such that if miners ever do anything out of line

537
00:49:22,539 --> 00:49:26,620
or that's not in the best interest of Bitcoin, then the value of Bitcoin will go

538
00:49:26,820 --> 00:49:32,219
down and miners have the least liquid position of any participant in the Bitcoin

539
00:49:32,420 --> 00:49:36,219
ecosystem. You can't go and sell a mining operation quickly,

540
00:49:36,420 --> 00:49:40,579
especially when when conditions are not favorable from a price perspective.

541
00:49:40,779 --> 00:49:44,820
Many miners traded well below the book value of the investments that they had

542
00:49:44,820 --> 00:49:48,779
made during the FTX, you know, the months surrounding the FTX collapse.

543
00:49:48,980 --> 00:49:52,219
So these are not liquid Bitcoin positions.

544
00:49:52,420 --> 00:49:56,539
They're the least liquid Bitcoin position of any participant in the ecosystem.

545
00:49:56,740 --> 00:50:03,620
And that that incentive is what I think keeps the industry healthy.

546
00:50:03,820 --> 00:50:08,539
And so what I would say to Peter Todd is, Peter, spend some time

547
00:50:08,699 --> 00:50:14,060
brushing up your knowledge on Bitcoin mining and on energy generation,

548
00:50:14,260 --> 00:50:19,899
economics and the current state of affairs, and then revisit some of your objections

549
00:50:20,099 --> 00:50:25,899
to anything that might add a little bit of cost, such as verifying a sidechain,

550
00:50:26,099 --> 00:50:30,579
which in the great in the grand scheme of things, it's like it's a drop in the bucket

551
00:50:30,779 --> 00:50:34,300
compared to. Yeah, I mean, that's what his thesis is,

552
00:50:34,300 --> 00:50:40,219
that you're that you may at some point feel a desire to have more confidence over

553
00:50:40,420 --> 00:50:44,740
the state of the sidechain, and you may be encouraged to run

554
00:50:44,940 --> 00:50:49,459
free open source software that other people are running for free.

555
00:50:49,459 --> 00:50:52,339
You know, other people, participants in the sidechain network who aren't even

556
00:50:52,539 --> 00:50:56,820
miners, so they're basically zero percent miners, the regular full nodes.

557
00:50:57,019 --> 00:51:00,940
You're going to run their software or have some kind of.

558
00:51:01,139 --> 00:51:02,500
Communication with those people,

559
00:51:02,699 --> 00:51:06,659
and his view is that that is going to be what significantly,

560
00:51:06,860 --> 00:51:12,659
you know, moves the needle on which which mining companies go bankrupt and which

561
00:51:12,860 --> 00:51:17,820
don't, and that will have a permanent, permanent impact on the ecosystem

562
00:51:18,019 --> 00:51:22,539
of Bitcoin mining or something, which I think that likelihood is about zero

563
00:51:22,740 --> 00:51:25,940
percent of that being the case.

564
00:51:27,539 --> 00:51:28,860
Yeah,

565
00:51:29,500 --> 00:51:32,940
and this solar thing is so funny, too, because the sun shines everywhere.

566
00:51:32,940 --> 00:51:34,659
Yes. I mean, it actually doesn't literally.

567
00:51:34,860 --> 00:51:39,699
I mean, the North or South Pole only on one particular day of the year or two.

568
00:51:39,899 --> 00:51:43,579
The two equinox doesn't actually shine everywhere.

569
00:51:43,779 --> 00:51:46,300
Well, and then even at a different angle,

570
00:51:46,500 --> 00:51:49,099
it's got to come at point blank range like at the equator.

571
00:51:49,099 --> 00:51:50,980
So you get a lot more solar energy there.

572
00:51:51,180 --> 00:51:53,180
So let's let's walk through the circuit.

573
00:51:53,380 --> 00:51:58,740
Let's say, OK, what one megawatt is

574
00:51:59,219 --> 00:52:02,019
somewhere between 30 and 50 petahash, right?

575
00:52:02,219 --> 00:52:04,620
So you want to build a megawatt of solar

576
00:52:04,820 --> 00:52:09,019
panels, and that's why it's decentralized, because you want to build a megawatt

577
00:52:09,219 --> 00:52:13,300
of solar panels, you get eight hours of electricity per day.

578
00:52:13,500 --> 00:52:15,060
And so actually, if you want to have one

579
00:52:15,260 --> 00:52:20,539
megawatt of just solar powered mining, you actually need three megawatts of panels

580
00:52:20,740 --> 00:52:25,579
and two megawatts of batteries because you will be generating when the sun is

581
00:52:25,579 --> 00:52:30,139
shining and and then you'll be storing your energy in your batteries and you'll

582
00:52:30,339 --> 00:52:34,300
be releasing it into your Bitcoin miners after the sun goes down from your

583
00:52:34,500 --> 00:52:37,500
batteries. Now, the question that probably Peter does

584
00:52:37,699 --> 00:52:42,019
not realize to ask is, well, why do I need batteries?

585
00:52:42,019 --> 00:52:44,459
Why don't I just only mine when the sun is shining?

586
00:52:44,659 --> 00:52:49,940
And then you say, OK, Peter, we'll go and look at the cost of of a bit main machine

587
00:52:50,139 --> 00:52:53,980
or a micro BTE machine, even at the upper echelon of the wholesale

588
00:52:53,980 --> 00:52:57,579
market where firms like Riot and Marathon are paying

589
00:52:57,779 --> 00:53:01,380
fourteen dollars a terahash for the newest bit main machines.

590
00:53:01,579 --> 00:53:04,060
A retail user is paying twenty five dollars

591
00:53:04,260 --> 00:53:05,740
a terahash for that machine just as a starter.

592
00:53:05,940 --> 00:53:09,940
They're paying 60 percent, 70 percent more because they're not buying a huge quantity.

593
00:53:10,139 --> 00:53:12,699
And in order for you to earn a positive

594
00:53:12,899 --> 00:53:18,420
Bitcoin denominated return on that miner at present

595
00:53:18,620 --> 00:53:22,740
Bitcoin price and difficulty conditions, you have to run it 24 hours a day,

596
00:53:22,980 --> 00:53:24,779
maybe 23 hours a day.

597
00:53:24,980 --> 00:53:27,579
Cormitt's uptime is eighty seven percent.

598
00:53:27,779 --> 00:53:31,099
And that's what gives us an extremely low cost of power because we're

599
00:53:31,300 --> 00:53:33,099
arbitraging against the electricity grid.

600
00:53:33,300 --> 00:53:35,860
We are probably at the absolute lowest

601
00:53:36,060 --> 00:53:39,060
of uptime that you can run at eighty seven percent.

602
00:53:39,260 --> 00:53:43,779
And so the fundamental misunderstandings of the reality of the mining business,

603
00:53:43,980 --> 00:53:48,380
I think it invalidates Peter Todd's ability to criticize proposals

604
00:53:48,380 --> 00:53:52,260
on the premise of centralizing mining because it just doesn't understand

605
00:53:52,459 --> 00:53:53,740
to say, oh, solar is everywhere.

606
00:53:53,940 --> 00:53:57,980
The sun shines as if you just go outside and point your miner towards the sun

607
00:53:58,180 --> 00:54:01,620
and the energy just flows in and it spits out Bitcoin.

608
00:54:01,820 --> 00:54:07,300
There is so much capex that would go into making that a reality.

609
00:54:07,500 --> 00:54:10,940
And that's just the nature of the industry.

610
00:54:11,139 --> 00:54:12,699
So

611
00:54:12,899 --> 00:54:16,180
in my mind, the ship has sailed on.

612
00:54:16,380 --> 00:54:18,980
Mining decentralization, where you're going to have millions

613
00:54:18,980 --> 00:54:23,740
of people running one or two rigs and instead you should focus on

614
00:54:23,940 --> 00:54:28,420
the health of the mining incentive so that the miners are on their absolute best

615
00:54:28,620 --> 00:54:33,860
behavior and and are always behaving in the best interest of Bitcoin because

616
00:54:34,060 --> 00:54:37,260
they want to earn the remainder of the block subsidy that will come out and they

617
00:54:37,459 --> 00:54:42,099
want to earn the fees that will hopefully continue to be a material part

618
00:54:42,300 --> 00:54:44,019
of their revenue stream.

619
00:54:44,820 --> 00:54:48,500
Yeah, and I was struck that that was the only thing the only critique you really

620
00:54:48,699 --> 00:54:53,300
had as far as like the how does it 300 affect Bitcoin?

621
00:54:53,500 --> 00:54:57,260
It was only this indirect effect on miners costs.

622
00:54:57,459 --> 00:55:01,019
And I've always been of the opinion that anyone who cares about that is actually

623
00:55:01,219 --> 00:55:06,699
against upward difficulty adjustments and they're actually against proof of work.

624
00:55:06,699 --> 00:55:10,099
They may not realize that they are, but but that's you know, that's what makes

625
00:55:10,139 --> 00:55:14,779
the revenues go up and the costs go, the difficulty goes up and the.

626
00:55:14,980 --> 00:55:20,459
Miners costs go up, and so it's just something that as Bitcoin becomes more

627
00:55:20,659 --> 00:55:25,980
successful and as the exchange rate climbs and as the fees climb.

628
00:55:26,180 --> 00:55:31,380
We'll just be living in a world where you.

629
00:55:31,579 --> 00:55:36,659
You need to generate an enormous quantity of money to be able to do that.

630
00:55:37,539 --> 00:55:40,339
You need to generate an enormous quantity

631
00:55:40,539 --> 00:55:45,779
of hashes and you need to do whatever you can, you mix whatever fixed to variable

632
00:55:45,980 --> 00:55:49,139
costs, take advantage of whatever scale economies are out there

633
00:55:49,339 --> 00:55:56,380
so that you are part of the set of optimal mind, a set of surviving miners.

634
00:55:58,219 --> 00:56:03,260
Right, so that's what he's saying is that this is so important that it's enough to

635
00:56:03,459 --> 00:56:06,219
block the sidechains idea, which is,

636
00:56:06,420 --> 00:56:10,659
you know, an enormously beneficial idea for Bitcoin, to say the least.

637
00:56:10,860 --> 00:56:12,620
I mean, it would immediately unlock

638
00:56:12,820 --> 00:56:16,779
planetary scale and Zcash privacy, which you would think

639
00:56:16,980 --> 00:56:20,659
that would be complete game changer like the next week.

640
00:56:20,860 --> 00:56:23,099
But it's really I think that we can all

641
00:56:23,300 --> 00:56:28,820
see that it really has nothing to do with BIP300 itself or even with any BIP.

642
00:56:29,019 --> 00:56:31,940
It is the soft fork process

643
00:56:32,099 --> 00:56:34,740
that has just broken down

644
00:56:34,940 --> 00:56:38,500
and a lot of people want to take credit for things or something.

645
00:56:38,699 --> 00:56:43,019
It's just a the process is just a tough process.

646
00:56:43,219 --> 00:56:46,659
And it it's I think the biggest factor is

647
00:56:46,860 --> 00:56:51,539
just that it requires an enormous amount of specialized knowledge to figure out

648
00:56:51,740 --> 00:56:52,940
what is going on in these BIPs.

649
00:56:53,139 --> 00:56:56,740
How does Bitcoin even work anyway under the hood?

650
00:56:56,940 --> 00:56:58,899
And I have, you know, enormous disagreements

651
00:56:59,099 --> 00:57:01,300
with people, I think, that are really brilliant.

652
00:57:01,339 --> 00:57:04,980
I think I mean, I think Luke is also very misguided,

653
00:57:05,180 --> 00:57:07,980
but I think Luke is a genius in many ways.

654
00:57:08,179 --> 00:57:10,699
And a lot of people are very

655
00:57:10,900 --> 00:57:12,219
Luke is a very smart guy.

656
00:57:12,419 --> 00:57:14,699
I don't think he understands

657
00:57:14,900 --> 00:57:18,459
mining either, but I think that and I don't I disagree with him about he has

658
00:57:18,660 --> 00:57:22,780
these various essentialist claims like what what does it mean for Bitcoin to have

659
00:57:22,980 --> 00:57:28,059
succeeded or what does it mean, you know, to for mining to be centralized

660
00:57:28,059 --> 00:57:31,699
or, you know, when when is a who activates a soft worker?

661
00:57:31,900 --> 00:57:34,980
So he's he's a lot of black and white thinking.

662
00:57:35,179 --> 00:57:36,299
But, yeah, I mean, I'm just trying to say

663
00:57:36,500 --> 00:57:38,540
that I disagree with a lot of smart people.

664
00:57:38,740 --> 00:57:44,579
And so if if if the people who go to like Tabcom and people who go to scaling

665
00:57:44,780 --> 00:57:50,459
Bitcoin for the last type of thing for like 10 years,

666
00:57:50,660 --> 00:57:55,020
if we can't get our story straight, then how can we expect?

667
00:57:55,339 --> 00:58:02,179
A less experienced, less specialized people to automatically.

668
00:58:02,380 --> 00:58:08,059
All agree on the right answer, that seems unlikely, so.

669
00:58:08,260 --> 00:58:12,540
So I think it's just a difficult thing, but it's an interest, it's an interesting

670
00:58:12,740 --> 00:58:14,179
thing because.

671
00:58:15,819 --> 00:58:20,819
We all suffer as a result of not accomplishing this task, so you think

672
00:58:20,819 --> 00:58:24,980
that more and more people would be kind of like hard at work trying to make it

673
00:58:24,980 --> 00:58:28,140
happen, which to some extent there is, there are people at Jamison Lopp or

674
00:58:28,339 --> 00:58:33,660
whatever, people write like what is 119, but it doesn't kind of take, you know,

675
00:58:33,860 --> 00:58:37,219
people just stay to kind of think about it and then they forget next week or

676
00:58:37,419 --> 00:58:40,260
something, you know, let's dive into that a little more.

677
00:58:40,459 --> 00:58:42,099
When I was

678
00:58:42,299 --> 00:58:44,660
on, I was the kind of.

679
00:58:44,860 --> 00:58:46,699
Advocate for.

680
00:58:46,860 --> 00:58:49,740
Being more intense about driving fee

681
00:58:49,939 --> 00:58:55,419
revenue on Peter McCormack's What Bitcoin Did podcast, it was me,

682
00:58:55,620 --> 00:59:00,179
Peter McCormack, Thomas Pachia of Pubkey and Marty Benn,

683
00:59:00,380 --> 00:59:06,059
and the three of them were of the opinion that

684
00:59:06,260 --> 00:59:09,260
the concerns about fee revenue were overstated.

685
00:59:09,459 --> 00:59:14,179
And I was the, you know, the proponent of

686
00:59:14,419 --> 00:59:17,179
thinking more long term and.

687
00:59:17,380 --> 00:59:20,500
And experimenting with some alternative

688
00:59:20,699 --> 00:59:25,299
methods to scaling Bitcoin that had

689
00:59:26,299 --> 00:59:29,140
a specific contemplation of.

690
00:59:29,339 --> 00:59:33,579
How miners were going to participate in the.

691
00:59:33,780 --> 00:59:36,740
The transaction throughput improvements on the layer two.

692
00:59:36,939 --> 00:59:40,099
And, you know, my contention is that

693
00:59:40,299 --> 00:59:44,939
lightning does not pass through

694
00:59:45,140 --> 00:59:49,419
revenues to the layer one miners in an adequate way.

695
00:59:49,620 --> 00:59:54,020
And lightning is also somewhat poorly designed in that

696
00:59:54,219 --> 00:59:58,819
channels have difficulty opening and closing in a high fee environment.

697
00:59:59,020 --> 00:59:59,900
And so.

698
01:00:00,398 --> 01:00:08,598
And you see the reaction of the lightning community to this little spat of high fees that we've have been having, you know, there's there's an outcry and.

699
01:00:09,758 --> 01:00:27,838
The three of them agreed on the counterpoint to all the points that I brought up on that, which was why are we worried about this now? How is this going to affect me now? It's we're so early and you don't need to worry about this and we don't need to do anything drastic or change mining incentives.

700
01:00:28,638 --> 01:00:35,197
Right now, because it's so far down the road that that this is not an issue.

701
01:00:36,317 --> 01:00:49,517
To be to be worried about now, and I found that answer frustrating, but I kind of understood it because from the perspective of a non-miner or a non-developer of a sidechain software like yourself.

702
01:00:50,478 --> 01:01:07,838
The current status quo seems OK, and it obviously does make sense for miners to be fixated on fee revenues and for miners to be the ones who are investing in potential avenues to adopt Bitcoin scaling that account for passing fees through to layer one.

703
01:01:08,558 --> 01:01:13,597
And so I think that's that's kind of where the issue is going to live.

704
01:01:13,597 --> 01:01:29,677
The broader Bitcoin community will probably be accurately represented by people like Peter and Thomas and Marty, where they're like, you know, that's not really worried about this gross electricity usage to secure Bitcoin continues to go up.

705
01:01:29,997 --> 01:01:41,357
Gross mining revenue denominated in USD continues to go up, you know, and all of the metrics, as do transaction fees, continue to have an average increasing trend line.

706
01:01:41,838 --> 01:01:55,118
And so for us, what looks potentially like an alarming future is something that for them seems like a an unnecessary thing to worry about right now.

707
01:01:55,838 --> 01:02:08,718
I kind of do get that, but I also agree that I'm doing the exact right thing that I should be doing, which is thinking about this and intending to deploy capital into solving this problem or making strides forward.

708
01:02:10,638 --> 01:02:12,877
Yeah, well, I certainly also agree.

709
01:02:12,877 --> 01:02:18,718
I mean, I understand where people are coming from, and I've been in Bitcoin a long time and I often get a question.

710
01:02:18,718 --> 01:02:20,237
I get it kind of from both ends.

711
01:02:20,718 --> 01:02:23,838
People are like, why don't you pursue this more aggressively?

712
01:02:24,797 --> 01:02:26,558
And, you know, your idea or whatever.

713
01:02:26,558 --> 01:02:29,037
And I'm like, well, you know, Bitcoin has been doing pretty well.

714
01:02:29,998 --> 01:02:34,077
It's been basically the best performing asset in the history of capitalism.

715
01:02:34,797 --> 01:02:43,918
It has totally rooted out most of its critics and they have been humiliated and defeated.

716
01:02:44,797 --> 01:02:47,758
And it's very important.

717
01:02:48,398 --> 01:02:56,797
You know, it's the basic on-chain banking service, for lack of a better word.

718
01:02:56,797 --> 01:02:57,358
It works.

719
01:02:58,957 --> 01:03:02,317
I think that but I do think there is a couple of concerning things.

720
01:03:02,317 --> 01:03:13,437
So with lightning, we have to mention that lightning has become something that is more concerning than merely a badly designed idea.

721
01:03:13,918 --> 01:03:18,797
Which is, I mean, we had Antony Riard on like two weeks ago or three weeks.

722
01:03:18,797 --> 01:03:21,597
I don't remember how many weeks, maybe only one week.

723
01:03:21,597 --> 01:03:28,638
But in any event, you know, he was very jovial and sort of polite.

724
01:03:29,358 --> 01:03:39,597
But the actual content of what he said, I would think would be sort of devastating, which is where he was saying that he was quitting lightning.

725
01:03:39,597 --> 01:03:43,037
And it's not like he quit and he had like something lined up to do.

726
01:03:43,758 --> 01:03:49,278
Like where he was bought out by whatever, you know, Deloitte or something.

727
01:03:49,278 --> 01:03:51,517
He's just like quitting, going to take some time and think.

728
01:03:52,558 --> 01:03:58,398
And he was saying that, you know, a lot of people are afraid to admit they were wrong.

729
01:03:59,278 --> 01:04:03,198
The VCs don't want people to invalidate their investment thesis.

730
01:04:04,157 --> 01:04:11,037
So I think everyone should go listen for themselves if they doubt my interpretation, which is fine.

731
01:04:11,037 --> 01:04:15,758
But it has become a kind of like deception machine.

732
01:04:16,398 --> 01:04:22,637
And now we're all self-deceived and deceiving each other about it.

733
01:04:22,637 --> 01:04:27,757
And that's more of a problem because then it seeds many other problems.

734
01:04:28,558 --> 01:04:33,197
Which brings me to the other thing I wanted to say about, you know, being patient.

735
01:04:34,718 --> 01:04:38,637
Which is to say that, well, that's also kind of a tough nut to crack.

736
01:04:38,637 --> 01:04:45,118
Because if you're really patient, then maybe you never even embark down.

737
01:04:45,118 --> 01:04:46,398
You never even go down the road.

738
01:04:46,398 --> 01:04:53,357
Like maybe if I was as patient as these people, I would never have gotten involved with this sidechains problem.

739
01:04:53,357 --> 01:04:55,757
And so drivechains wouldn't exist.

740
01:04:55,757 --> 01:04:56,957
The 300 wouldn't exist.

741
01:04:57,677 --> 01:05:00,077
And what if more and more people followed that example?

742
01:05:00,077 --> 01:05:09,998
Then there would just be nothing waiting there for anyone to discuss or adopt or think about adopting or modify.

743
01:05:10,637 --> 01:05:11,197
I do agree.

744
01:05:11,917 --> 01:05:15,917
As I was thinking about potentially bringing this up today,

745
01:05:16,477 --> 01:05:26,477
I was thinking how there's a little bit of dissonance in the idea of don't worry about it.

746
01:05:26,477 --> 01:05:33,438
It's so far in the future being an antagonistic principle with the idea of low time preference.

747
01:05:33,438 --> 01:05:42,318
Which is, you know, it's an accepted orthodox mantra of, you know, the current Bitcoin old guard, right?

748
01:05:42,318 --> 01:05:44,558
Is we're low time preference.

749
01:05:44,558 --> 01:05:45,357
We're not worried.

750
01:05:45,357 --> 01:05:46,077
We're saving money.

751
01:05:46,077 --> 01:05:47,197
We're saving Bitcoin.

752
01:05:47,197 --> 01:05:49,757
And we're on the Titanic.

753
01:05:49,757 --> 01:05:51,038
We plan for the future.

754
01:05:51,038 --> 01:05:51,517
Yeah.

755
01:05:51,517 --> 01:05:55,598
And we're building a big cathedral that's going to take 400 years to complete or whatever.

756
01:05:55,598 --> 01:05:57,278
You know, that's what we're supposed to be doing.

757
01:05:57,278 --> 01:06:02,878
And I have to mention a second thing, though, is that once something's been invented, it's out there.

758
01:06:02,878 --> 01:06:03,517
You know what I mean?

759
01:06:03,517 --> 01:06:10,237
So this has happened also already, where some of the stuff, the roll-up stuff and the Ethereum stuff,

760
01:06:10,237 --> 01:06:18,718
is I think maybe even indirectly based on maybe even a drivechain or other just sidechain type ideas.

761
01:06:18,718 --> 01:06:21,357
So it's like you're in the community.

762
01:06:21,357 --> 01:06:24,718
It's like you're playing like a, you know, a civilization or like some game or something.

763
01:06:24,718 --> 01:06:27,677
And like people are researching like gunpowder and stuff.

764
01:06:27,677 --> 01:06:35,438
And you can't just be like, you know, once the idea is out there, it's out there for everyone.

765
01:06:36,077 --> 01:06:41,677
And so you might think, well, we don't need to worry about gunpowder yet.

766
01:06:42,957 --> 01:06:47,998
But that doesn't square with just like, you know, it's like open source software.

767
01:06:47,998 --> 01:06:49,038
No one can release anything.

768
01:06:49,598 --> 01:06:54,077
Anyway, we have a Julian who's made it up onto the stage and has a hand up.

769
01:06:54,077 --> 01:06:54,637
So hello.

770
01:06:55,757 --> 01:06:56,237
Hi, Paul.

771
01:06:56,237 --> 01:06:58,398
Thanks for putting me on stage.

772
01:06:59,517 --> 01:07:04,158
I thought what James said earlier about the corporate interests and the stockholders was

773
01:07:04,158 --> 01:07:10,077
interesting and I wonder what you think of these sort of, I don't think that the shareholders would

774
01:07:10,077 --> 01:07:13,917
actually do anything, but they just follow the recommendation of the board and the board may do

775
01:07:13,917 --> 01:07:19,118
some diligence and sort of start to actually be a stakeholder and influence the direction and

776
01:07:20,077 --> 01:07:23,118
be a voice in the governance or take over the governance and

777
01:07:23,118 --> 01:07:26,558
send us in the sort of different direction at least.

778
01:07:28,237 --> 01:07:32,158
Yeah, well, we certainly need someone whose job it is to like do the diligence

779
01:07:32,237 --> 01:07:35,438
because they can't, if they're just going to show up on Twitter, glance around and say,

780
01:07:36,237 --> 01:07:39,998
well, this is, this seems like what's getting the most Twitter likes.

781
01:07:39,998 --> 01:07:42,718
I mean, that's exactly why we have due diligence because of, you know,

782
01:07:42,718 --> 01:07:45,438
Theranos and all kinds of Enron and a million other things.

783
01:07:46,878 --> 01:07:47,357
Right.

784
01:07:47,357 --> 01:07:53,917
And if you think about who these people are, you know, versus someone like you or someone like me

785
01:07:53,917 --> 01:07:57,917
or Paul, these are, I bet you half these people don't even know what they own.

786
01:07:58,957 --> 01:08:00,637
And I think half is way low number.

787
01:08:00,637 --> 01:08:07,438
I think 99% of these people have no idea what equities they own inside of their, you know,

788
01:08:07,438 --> 01:08:18,158
their Russell 2000 position, index fund position, or it's just in their 401k plan and they have

789
01:08:18,158 --> 01:08:19,438
no clue what it is.

790
01:08:19,438 --> 01:08:27,998
So it's an interesting kind of change that's not really talked about right now is that

791
01:08:27,998 --> 01:08:34,637
although the number of distinct mining firms has probably not increased dramatically.

792
01:08:34,637 --> 01:08:41,197
And I would say the forces of economies of scale and specifically the cost of equity capital in

793
01:08:41,197 --> 01:08:48,557
the North American public markets is a factor that will make it unlikely that firms who are

794
01:08:48,557 --> 01:08:54,877
not public can compete against public firms, which favors obviously massive scale because

795
01:08:54,877 --> 01:08:56,478
the cost of going public is tremendous.

796
01:08:57,038 --> 01:09:04,317
The, while that is true that there may be fewer firms, the governance of those firms

797
01:09:04,317 --> 01:09:11,437
will be subject to one of the most powerful forces in capital formation that's ever existed

798
01:09:11,437 --> 01:09:18,238
in the species, which is, you know, the United States rule of law and the Delaware Sea Corporation

799
01:09:18,238 --> 01:09:19,918
as a corporate structure.

800
01:09:19,918 --> 01:09:26,077
And so it could open the door to some really interesting governance where,

801
01:09:26,077 --> 01:09:30,798
I mean, the amount of capital that's been mobilized via the Delaware Corporation and

802
01:09:30,798 --> 01:09:36,478
the amount of economic prosperity that that's created in this country is enormous.

803
01:09:36,478 --> 01:09:45,437
And now that governance structure is effectively, I mean, I don't know if it's there yet, but it

804
01:09:45,437 --> 01:09:49,918
will be pretty close to controlling a huge portion of hash rate.

805
01:09:49,918 --> 01:09:53,757
Now, the flip side of that, if you're a Bitcoin purist, of course, is that

806
01:09:54,398 --> 01:09:57,517
that could be a regulatory attack factor and it definitely could.

807
01:09:59,278 --> 01:10:07,918
And I still don't think that I understand that thinking, which is if, you know, if it's

808
01:10:07,918 --> 01:10:13,197
in the fiduciary best interest of the executives, the board and the shareholders, well, you

809
01:10:13,197 --> 01:10:17,278
know, the board and the officers have the fiduciary interest, but, you know, the shareholders

810
01:10:17,278 --> 01:10:19,038
obviously have their interest.

811
01:10:19,038 --> 01:10:22,398
Why would they go along with a change to Bitcoin that would make their holdings less

812
01:10:22,557 --> 01:10:23,838
valuable in the long run?

813
01:10:23,838 --> 01:10:26,077
I still don't really see how you connect those dots.

814
01:10:26,077 --> 01:10:33,197
I think there's just a natural suspicion amongst Bitcoiners towards anything big, corporate

815
01:10:33,197 --> 01:10:38,317
governance, you know, the large institutional money managers, I'd rightfully be suspicious

816
01:10:38,317 --> 01:10:38,877
of those.

817
01:10:38,877 --> 01:10:44,238
But I think this actually opens up some new avenues for governance that had not previously

818
01:10:44,238 --> 01:10:46,877
been contemplated and only really recently have occurred.

819
01:10:47,358 --> 01:10:50,798
Right, that these guys could overturn the old guard and it doesn't matter what they

820
01:10:50,798 --> 01:10:51,838
think anymore.

821
01:10:53,038 --> 01:10:54,798
Yeah, that is true, though.

822
01:10:54,798 --> 01:11:04,478
This could actually become a real financial revolution where the amount of, I think it

823
01:11:04,478 --> 01:11:10,077
happens in two really interesting ways, is the Bitcoin mining infrastructure gets even

824
01:11:10,077 --> 01:11:14,158
more deeply integrated into electricity grid and electricity systems.

825
01:11:14,158 --> 01:11:20,557
As the buyer of last resort for power and this great form of organic demand response,

826
01:11:20,557 --> 01:11:22,077
which is already happening.

827
01:11:23,678 --> 01:11:30,718
And, you know, then you have this real bottom up monetary revolution where a form of money

828
01:11:30,718 --> 01:11:36,557
that's a better savings vehicle for the vast majority of humans on Earth who are not skilled

829
01:11:36,557 --> 01:11:41,197
financial money managers also has the highest monetary value.

830
01:11:42,158 --> 01:11:47,838
Also has the highest monetary utility and the highest monetary utility is enabled in

831
01:11:47,838 --> 01:11:56,637
a way that it drives a continued mining incentive to install more hashrate and, you know, and

832
01:11:56,637 --> 01:11:59,197
respond to the demand for block space.

833
01:11:59,197 --> 01:12:02,557
So it's it could definitely unseat the old guard.

834
01:12:02,557 --> 01:12:07,517
And I think to your point and probably Paul's point is it may be time for that transition

835
01:12:07,517 --> 01:12:07,997
to happen.

836
01:12:08,238 --> 01:12:12,877
But who knows, you know, probably get crucified for saying that.

837
01:12:13,838 --> 01:12:14,317
Well, yeah.

838
01:12:14,317 --> 01:12:19,918
And then the cynic in me wants to say once you get rid of that problem, you can get rid

839
01:12:19,918 --> 01:12:23,678
of the 21 million cap and whatever else you want as well.

840
01:12:23,678 --> 01:12:25,517
The proof of work.

841
01:12:26,957 --> 01:12:27,757
What's to stop you?

842
01:12:28,557 --> 01:12:33,437
I think the day that that the hypothetical day where 21 million was removed as a supply

843
01:12:33,517 --> 01:12:39,598
gap, the mining equities would drop 50 percent and all of the executive team would be fired

844
01:12:40,478 --> 01:12:42,158
and everyone would dump Bitcoin.

845
01:12:42,158 --> 01:12:46,718
So it's, you know, that's that's what we want to avoid.

846
01:12:46,718 --> 01:12:46,957
Right.

847
01:12:46,957 --> 01:12:55,038
We want to have Ethereum like demand for block space where there is variable but consistently

848
01:12:55,038 --> 01:12:57,678
strong on average demand for block space.

849
01:12:57,918 --> 01:13:04,077
Yeah, I think the idea is of due diligence would be that people would look into it and

850
01:13:04,077 --> 01:13:11,197
they would say, is this actually going to increase the value of Bitcoin or the transaction

851
01:13:11,197 --> 01:13:12,238
fee volume?

852
01:13:12,238 --> 01:13:17,038
And you can see how you could make an argument for that.

853
01:13:17,038 --> 01:13:21,678
You could make an argument that if you change the 21 million coin unit, people would get

854
01:13:21,678 --> 01:13:26,398
very annoyed by that and flee the coin and maybe stop using it.

855
01:13:26,398 --> 01:13:30,637
So you would have significantly increased the likelihood that both the exchange rate

856
01:13:30,637 --> 01:13:34,478
would go to zero and the fees, long term fees would go to zero.

857
01:13:36,557 --> 01:13:37,117
That's my guess.

858
01:13:37,117 --> 01:13:39,757
You just need a good marketing campaign to sell it.

859
01:13:40,557 --> 01:13:40,798
Yeah.

860
01:13:40,798 --> 01:13:45,757
But here's the thing about that is we already have a marketing campaign that that's the

861
01:13:45,757 --> 01:13:49,757
issue is that we already have a marketing campaign for Bitcoin.

862
01:13:49,757 --> 01:13:54,637
That's the issue is that we already have a marketing campaign that's ruining and may

863
01:13:54,637 --> 01:13:55,997
kill Bitcoin.

864
01:13:56,637 --> 01:13:58,238
Just like kind of in reverse.

865
01:13:58,238 --> 01:14:04,317
So that's why we need someone to do diligence to actually research the facts and make it.

866
01:14:04,317 --> 01:14:07,278
It's also why the institution of the soft fork is a completely different.

867
01:14:08,317 --> 01:14:14,158
The idea that Satoshi added all these op nops, essentially really 10, but essentially an

868
01:14:14,158 --> 01:14:20,637
unlimited number of the blank op code and also the block version number, which can count

869
01:14:20,637 --> 01:14:22,077
to like 4 billion or something.

870
01:14:22,798 --> 01:14:26,877
And the transaction version numbers can count to 4 billion.

871
01:14:26,877 --> 01:14:31,437
And these are all just things that where you can.

872
01:14:33,838 --> 01:14:40,637
These are all things where it's a blank op code that is designed to be a slot for a future

873
01:14:40,637 --> 01:14:41,117
upgrade.

874
01:14:42,077 --> 01:14:49,517
And so the idea that an opt in optional repurpose of a completely unused op code that was

875
01:14:49,517 --> 01:14:55,197
reserved exactly for that purpose by Satoshi and that we've already done many times, the

876
01:14:55,197 --> 01:15:00,718
idea that that is on par with like some other thing that would like break Bitcoin is.

877
01:15:02,158 --> 01:15:03,197
Untrue, I would say.

878
01:15:06,317 --> 01:15:06,557
Yeah.

879
01:15:06,637 --> 01:15:15,358
I do like the steel man, you know, that that monetary utility through something like lightning

880
01:15:15,358 --> 01:15:19,757
will become so high that we'll never even have to worry about fees because everyone's

881
01:15:19,757 --> 01:15:21,678
hyper Bitcoinization will happen.

882
01:15:21,678 --> 01:15:23,117
I just think what it looks like.

883
01:15:23,117 --> 01:15:24,398
Yeah, I hope those people are right.

884
01:15:24,398 --> 01:15:25,117
I hope those people.

885
01:15:25,117 --> 01:15:26,077
That's what I always say, too.

886
01:15:26,077 --> 01:15:27,997
I hope those people are all right.

887
01:15:27,997 --> 01:15:28,877
Yeah, I hope they're right.

888
01:15:28,877 --> 01:15:30,158
I don't think they're going to be.

889
01:15:30,718 --> 01:15:32,957
I don't think it's super well thought out.

890
01:15:32,957 --> 01:15:37,437
But it is true to principles of sovereignty.

891
01:15:37,437 --> 01:15:47,437
And I think that's something admirable in attempting to maintain a nice connection to

892
01:15:47,437 --> 01:15:51,838
sovereignty, self-sovereignty through scaling Bitcoin for as long as possible.

893
01:15:53,197 --> 01:15:59,517
But what I think a healthy ecosystem looks like is open competition for scaling.

894
01:16:00,317 --> 01:16:07,598
And, you know, not a single chosen path and accepted orthodoxy and orthodoxy and everything

895
01:16:07,598 --> 01:16:08,557
else is taboo.

896
01:16:08,557 --> 01:16:14,877
You know, it is a healthy push and pull between different scaling solutions and ultimately

897
01:16:14,877 --> 01:16:16,238
the market wins.

898
01:16:16,238 --> 01:16:20,957
But we have to acknowledge there's a reality where the market wins and the scaling solution

899
01:16:20,957 --> 01:16:25,918
that is designed has a fantastic user experience and it onboards the market.

900
01:16:26,637 --> 01:16:31,358
A huge number of users, but it's not mindful of maintaining the layer one incentive.

901
01:16:31,358 --> 01:16:37,197
And, you know, tragedy of the commons ensues where the layer one incentive becomes a commonly

902
01:16:37,197 --> 01:16:39,838
owned good for all of these layer two users.

903
01:16:39,838 --> 01:16:43,997
But because nobody owns it directly, the whole thing falls apart.

904
01:16:44,077 --> 01:16:52,957
So, yeah, I mean, we're pro, we're pro, like, Bitcoin doing really, really well as it stands

905
01:16:52,957 --> 01:16:55,278
with no, with no extra attention given to.

906
01:16:55,278 --> 01:17:03,838
I mean, that would be great if it turns out Bitcoin in its current form really is perfect.

907
01:17:04,077 --> 01:17:09,918
And it's like, at a certain point, you know, I have been going to, I've been talking to

908
01:17:09,918 --> 01:17:15,118
form really is perfect, then that would be great.

909
01:17:15,358 --> 01:17:18,738
I think the people who say that,

910
01:17:20,118 --> 01:17:22,818
they don't seem to know a lot about the details.

911
01:17:23,938 --> 01:17:29,258
And it's like at a certain point, I have been going to, I've been talking to a lot of

912
01:17:29,408 --> 01:17:34,848
people and speaking and presenting at technical conferences for just a long time.

913
01:17:35,188 --> 01:17:37,188
I know what other people know.

914
01:17:37,348 --> 01:17:41,668
you see, like the chief critic of Drivechain, Peter Todd, is like complaining about,

915
01:17:41,668 --> 01:17:47,668
you know, it may affect costs sometimes if the miners feel like they

916
01:17:47,668 --> 01:17:48,897
want to run

917
01:17:48,957 --> 01:17:54,117
a node which already, that is already an extremely inexpensive thing.

918
01:17:54,917 --> 01:18:00,317
as the, as proof of work continues to, as difficulty continues to increase, so the

919
01:18:00,317 --> 01:18:04,217
exchange rate continues to increase, total miner costs will also skyrocket.

920
01:18:04,537 --> 01:18:06,557
the idea will just as a tiny percentage.

921
01:18:06,997 --> 01:18:08,387
So like, that's like the state of the

922
01:18:14,527 --> 01:18:19,067
I'm not sure

923
01:18:19,067 --> 01:18:27,877
if

924
01:18:27,877 --> 01:18:32,297
But if anyone else wants to come up, please come up.

925
01:18:32,617 --> 01:18:35,617
If you have any great questions or comments.

926
01:18:43,457 --> 01:18:44,517
I have a question.

927
01:18:45,517 --> 01:18:51,117
could a sidechain implementation progress

928
01:18:51,117 --> 01:18:55,937
without the necessary dips?

929
01:18:56,637 --> 01:19:02,237
Like, how could you do this in a way that removed the bottleneck

930
01:19:02,237 --> 01:19:03,297
of...

931
01:19:04,537 --> 01:19:10,537
the current BIP approval process.

932
01:19:11,357 --> 01:19:17,117
the easiest way is to do something like, you could call it BitVM, though I don't know

933
01:19:17,117 --> 01:19:18,417
if it would be called that.

934
01:19:18,917 --> 01:19:23,317
what you do is what I was thinking is you have Bitcoin Core

935
01:19:23,485 --> 01:19:29,365
run unmodified and then you have two additional pieces of

936
01:19:29,605 --> 01:19:35,285
basically it's like one is a giant tray for filters

937
01:19:35,285 --> 01:19:38,805
and blocks are to travel through each filter.

938
01:19:39,005 --> 01:19:43,065
So one of the filters will be Bitcoin Core and then one will be this

939
01:19:43,094 --> 01:19:44,474
thing that is only BIP300,

940
01:19:45,934 --> 01:19:50,834
Now, in this case, you're leaving Bitcoin Core totally unmodified, 100%.

941
01:19:51,474 --> 01:19:55,754
But the filter tray thing is going to call invalidate block on anything that doesn't

942
01:19:55,754 --> 01:19:56,734
pass the other filters.

943
01:19:56,954 --> 01:20:01,714
So then the filters can be like BIP119, CTV, opcat, whatever.

944
01:20:04,503 --> 01:20:06,923
And then this way you can activate soft forks

945
01:20:09,063 --> 01:20:11,123
without changing Bitcoin Core at all.

946
01:20:11,523 --> 01:20:17,303
you still need to get, in this scenario, still need to 51 % hashrate to

947
01:20:17,303 --> 01:20:19,903
run the new software.

948
01:20:19,963 --> 01:20:22,312
But now it is something that it's like

949
01:20:22,352 --> 01:20:27,012
a driver, like a Apex thing.

950
01:20:27,112 --> 01:20:32,692
don't know. They don't have names because this is just a weird idea, there's like the

951
01:20:32,692 --> 01:20:37,592
BIP300 filter that is not Bitcoin Core.

952
01:20:37,672 --> 01:20:39,192
It just checks BIP300 rules.

953
01:20:40,272 --> 01:20:41,492
then there is this.

954
01:20:42,340 --> 01:20:47,140
so basically miners have to switch from only running Bitcoin core to running this this

955
01:20:47,140 --> 01:20:52,540
thing this filter tray thing and then that would do it for them

956
01:20:52,540 --> 01:20:57,280
and that would be very carefully written to only the only thing that's doing is

957
01:20:57,280 --> 01:21:01,529
invalidating a block is doing the mempool and it invalidates

958
01:21:01,609 --> 01:21:04,669
blocks if someone breaks the 300 rule.

959
01:21:05,129 --> 01:21:10,909
then if 50, as soon as 51 % of the mining pool world is running that,

960
01:21:12,069 --> 01:21:15,889
then the salt fork is upgraded de facto for the entire network.

961
01:21:16,789 --> 01:21:19,649
this is even in a weird way, this is exactly what many people suggest.

962
01:21:20,269 --> 01:21:21,138
example,

963
01:21:21,778 --> 01:21:27,098
Francis Puyo has suggested that you should never merge the BIP into Bitcoin Core.

964
01:21:27,738 --> 01:21:30,498
He's like a militant, toxic small blocker guy.

965
01:21:31,298 --> 01:21:32,258
And I've known him for many years.

966
01:21:32,578 --> 01:21:37,398
Fascinating character. And he thinks that you should always release an alternative

967
01:21:37,398 --> 01:21:38,058
client.

968
01:21:39,578 --> 01:21:40,747
And although he doesn't think,

969
01:21:40,887 --> 01:21:44,207
he is definitely in the camp that says you should not collude with miners.

970
01:21:44,867 --> 01:21:50,687
in a way, that leaves us nowhere, because what it means in practice is just something

971
01:21:50,687 --> 01:21:54,087
like no one should ever talk to the miners, so the miners can never get informed, which

972
01:21:54,087 --> 01:21:56,287
that's also moving in the wrong direction.

973
01:21:58,067 --> 01:22:00,287
But anyway, that's one way of doing

974
01:22:00,355 --> 01:22:05,795
it without modifying Bitcoin Core,

975
01:22:05,975 --> 01:22:11,955
software, then you explicitly say that this is not a modification

976
01:22:11,955 --> 01:22:16,895
to Bitcoin Core, software, even though it is an upgrade to the Bitcoin protocol.

977
01:22:16,895 --> 01:22:19,964
And then I mean, it's kind of anyone's

978
01:22:20,144 --> 01:22:21,584
game how that is interpreted.

979
01:22:22,264 --> 01:22:27,624
People may interpret that as something bad or people may interpret it as something

980
01:22:27,624 --> 01:22:29,164
good. don't know.

981
01:22:29,604 --> 01:22:29,984
It's hard to say.

982
01:22:30,104 --> 01:22:34,884
But I do think that what's definitely not working is this weird limbo

983
01:22:34,884 --> 01:22:39,504
where everyone has a veto just because they have a Twitter

984
01:22:39,573 --> 01:22:43,053
account and they're not even, you know, not even a...

985
01:22:43,053 --> 01:22:48,573
So, rando bought Twitter account, it's not even like with a name, so

986
01:22:48,573 --> 01:22:54,433
that doesn't seem like it's going to work because as far as we

987
01:22:54,433 --> 01:22:57,193
know, these are saboteurs from Ethereum or something.

988
01:22:59,182 --> 01:23:03,862
I think so that would be a That's a creative way of getting around it.

989
01:23:04,262 --> 01:23:09,482
But that still involves the mining pool switching over their software, which they may

990
01:23:10,162 --> 01:23:14,922
they may be very hesitant to do because it may, I don't know how people would interpret

991
01:23:14,922 --> 01:23:15,162
it.

992
01:23:19,850 --> 01:23:23,030
Some of them, mining pools do not.

993
01:23:25,050 --> 01:23:28,550
Very rarely, think, do they actually just use a regular Bitcoin core.

994
01:23:28,690 --> 01:23:34,050
have like special modified versions that do special

995
01:23:34,050 --> 01:23:38,330
mempool things or special tricks as to if a block has just been

996
01:23:38,399 --> 01:23:42,859
found, switch the template over, temper a mind, and empty block temporarily.

997
01:23:45,859 --> 01:23:46,659
I don't know.

998
01:23:46,739 --> 01:23:50,479
They probably already all run custom software or most of them, although I don't know.

999
01:23:50,879 --> 01:23:56,479
and it'd be interesting to know if Foundry did because they're sort of relatively new,

1000
01:23:56,519 --> 01:23:57,959
but also relatively big, and I don't

1001
01:23:58,008 --> 01:23:59,008
know if they...

1002
01:23:59,008 --> 01:24:03,748
someone like a brain's slush pool, it would also be interesting to know if they did

1003
01:24:03,748 --> 01:24:08,548
because they're very purist but they're also very old so they would know all the the

1004
01:24:08,548 --> 01:24:10,108
Jedi tricks.

1005
01:24:12,148 --> 01:24:13,008
would be interesting question.

1006
01:24:13,568 --> 01:24:17,468
But anyway it is theoretically possible to do it only by having a few

1007
01:24:17,617 --> 01:24:19,797
pools switch and without modifying Bitcoin.

1008
01:24:20,057 --> 01:24:25,057
The reason why I say that's like a BitVM thing, it'd be like a BitVM instead of for an

1009
01:24:25,057 --> 01:24:27,157
individual transaction just for like an entire block.

1010
01:24:27,397 --> 01:24:30,617
like a thing that invalidates the...

1011
01:24:31,537 --> 01:24:36,257
There's an extra thing running on top of Bitcoin that invalidates the block and that

1012
01:24:36,257 --> 01:24:37,197
thing is

1013
01:24:37,365 --> 01:24:40,325
like a BIP300 enforcing software.

1014
01:24:40,745 --> 01:24:44,245
I don't know if that made any sense to anyone, but it is theoretically possible to do

1015
01:24:44,245 --> 01:24:45,065
that instead.

1016
01:24:47,645 --> 01:24:52,245
And that's another thing that's probably a good practice if people would put that out

1017
01:24:52,245 --> 01:24:55,625
so that they don't have to deal with...

1018
01:24:56,525 --> 01:24:56,834
Because the

1019
01:24:56,834 --> 01:25:01,094
people who work on Bitcoin Core, the software, they have their own ways of doing things

1020
01:25:01,094 --> 01:25:03,354
and they are very justifiably so.

1021
01:25:03,974 --> 01:25:08,034
They don't really want a completely new person to just come in to their house and start

1022
01:25:08,034 --> 01:25:09,254
moving the furniture around.

1023
01:25:10,174 --> 01:25:13,254
They just don't like that, which is kind of understandable.

1024
01:25:14,254 --> 01:25:16,414
it's actually, but then, you know, what else are they supposed to

1025
01:25:16,443 --> 01:25:22,263
do if they want to have, you know, like one of these, like if they want to do TX hash

1026
01:25:22,263 --> 01:25:24,343
or even op cat or something, you have to do something.

1027
01:25:26,103 --> 01:25:27,583
So it's probably a good idea.

1028
01:25:27,683 --> 01:25:31,083
That's an interesting if that were a best practice to do that and then release

1029
01:25:31,083 --> 01:25:35,983
something like a coin that

1030
01:25:36,052 --> 01:25:37,592
is just that or something, I'm not sure.

1031
01:25:38,152 --> 01:25:43,952
so that is an idea for just getting around the process.

1032
01:25:46,452 --> 01:25:48,252
People may hate that idea, though.

1033
01:25:48,252 --> 01:25:49,732
don't know. I'm not sure.

1034
01:25:51,092 --> 01:25:53,632
Who knows? It's a question what's also right and wrong.

1035
01:25:54,652 --> 01:25:55,512
I just

1036
01:25:55,660 --> 01:25:59,200
realized I'm coming from shitcoins and this is highly political what you're doing.

1037
01:25:59,660 --> 01:26:01,940
I see people like you are leading the world in the future.

1038
01:26:02,160 --> 01:26:07,080
It's really impressive to listen to you and it's a big process to gain knowledge.

1039
01:26:07,760 --> 01:26:12,460
To hear people like you, it's really impressive and I'm coming from shitcoins and just

1040
01:26:12,460 --> 01:26:14,280
realize what Bitcoin really is.

1041
01:26:14,280 --> 01:26:15,269
And I

1042
01:26:15,269 --> 01:26:18,829
I think we also just have to try some things because it's not,

1043
01:26:20,329 --> 01:26:25,889
how Paul said, it's a political question and because it's based on network effects.

1044
01:26:26,109 --> 01:26:27,409
in any case,

1045
01:26:28,909 --> 01:26:31,009
you don't know what happens in the future.

1046
01:26:31,669 --> 01:26:34,878
Every try we do can lead to something very big

1047
01:26:35,578 --> 01:26:37,838
it's everything in that work effect, and we should try.

1048
01:26:43,778 --> 01:26:46,378
Yeah, I'm like IAC kind of, basically.

1049
01:26:47,158 --> 01:26:50,998
mean, you know, they're right about like, you know, if we accelerate the arrival of

1050
01:26:50,998 --> 01:26:53,478
future that will mean you know more

1051
01:26:54,487 --> 01:26:58,047
medical inventions, everything.

1052
01:27:00,447 --> 01:27:03,407
basically, I think that's right.

1053
01:27:03,587 --> 01:27:07,427
it's weird because I had always thought that people would, would explain the idea.

1054
01:27:07,667 --> 01:27:10,487
then that is part that is the...

1055
01:27:11,927 --> 01:27:14,007
It's easier to do that than build the

1056
01:27:14,095 --> 01:27:18,795
software, but I thought once people get the idea, there'll be many more people just

1057
01:27:18,795 --> 01:27:23,995
working on the software instead of me.

1058
01:27:24,395 --> 01:27:28,255
I guess it doesn't really work out that way.

1059
01:27:28,435 --> 01:27:33,704
mean, I've also read one or two books where they say that anyone who invents

1060
01:27:33,724 --> 01:27:39,284
a software idea must write the code for the implementation because you just don't

1061
01:27:39,284 --> 01:27:44,404
realize how many things are assumed by you.

1062
01:27:45,944 --> 01:27:47,504
But then no one else will actually get.

1063
01:27:48,884 --> 01:27:50,904
So apparently this is a common thing.

1064
01:27:52,284 --> 01:27:53,313
But in any event, it

1065
01:27:53,313 --> 01:27:59,273
that's almost the way to go at this particular

1066
01:27:59,273 --> 01:28:05,213
juncture because it's not so much about even

1067
01:28:05,213 --> 01:28:11,013
activating any soft fork as it is about we have to

1068
01:28:11,013 --> 01:28:12,833
stop letting people get rewarded

1069
01:28:12,922 --> 01:28:18,202
for doing the wrong thing, which is what we currently have, where people are rewarded

1070
01:28:18,202 --> 01:28:23,442
for just... I mean, there's nothing like you're not defending Bitcoin if you

1071
01:28:23,442 --> 01:28:29,262
are attacking Jeremy Rubin for proposing

1072
01:28:29,262 --> 01:28:32,530
$1.19. this is not the

1073
01:28:35,730 --> 01:28:41,690
I got to go in a minute, but Ulaya, guy who brought

1074
01:28:41,690 --> 01:28:44,690
up the BIP16 question, says, is like gold.

1075
01:28:45,090 --> 01:28:48,950
Complaining about people that add alloys into it is a waste of time.

1076
01:28:50,330 --> 01:28:52,139
P2PKH is 24 karat gold.

1077
01:28:52,139 --> 01:28:58,119
gold, P2SH is 18k, BAC32 is 12k, and Lightning is k.

1078
01:28:59,039 --> 01:29:02,299
I'm not really sure what exactly he means by that.

1079
01:29:02,879 --> 01:29:06,379
thanks everyone for coming, and I don't know if you're going to sit around Paul, but

1080
01:29:06,379 --> 01:29:10,619
I've got to go talk to more lawyers and keep the meter running.

1081
01:29:11,119 --> 01:29:11,748
We've got to keep the

1082
01:29:11,828 --> 01:29:14,228
rent going. Thanks, everyone.

1083
01:29:14,948 --> 01:29:18,868
for coming. still have one question.

1084
01:29:19,128 --> 01:29:21,168
sorry if I'm coming in between.

1085
01:29:21,688 --> 01:29:26,388
I'm just wondering, it's maybe a philosophical question, could you imagine that it

1086
01:29:26,388 --> 01:29:31,308
would be possible that a program could be built that in general every

1087
01:29:31,357 --> 01:29:36,517
people on the world could get free wages to survive on basic needs and then they still

1088
01:29:36,517 --> 01:29:38,997
can speculate on ideas.

1089
01:29:39,717 --> 01:29:40,877
something like this possible?

1090
01:29:41,097 --> 01:29:42,397
you imagine the world...

1091
01:29:44,317 --> 01:29:47,457
that has been suggested that's the universal basic income idea.

1092
01:29:47,457 --> 01:29:50,937
and this could which is one of few it's like a

1093
01:29:50,965 --> 01:29:56,465
very, very socialist, communist style idea, but I actually don't think that it is, even

1094
01:29:56,465 --> 01:29:57,425
though it's painted that way.

1095
01:29:57,705 --> 01:30:02,565
think actually what it would do, I mean my hope is what it would do, is if this were

1096
01:30:02,565 --> 01:30:03,105
tried.

1097
01:30:04,785 --> 01:30:09,525
Well first of all, think it should, if people have more children, they should get the

1098
01:30:09,525 --> 01:30:10,325
money, know?

1099
01:30:10,594 --> 01:30:13,254
We should be giving it out to everyone.

1100
01:30:15,654 --> 01:30:17,574
The kids included.

1101
01:30:18,014 --> 01:30:23,414
right now, for fertility, many nations in the world faces this big fertility

1102
01:30:23,414 --> 01:30:29,094
crisis. But I think what I would hope would happen is that it would make the

1103
01:30:29,094 --> 01:30:30,183
recipients of the money

1104
01:30:30,463 --> 01:30:36,383
as a group, sort of more like Republican, for lack of a better word, or libertarian,

1105
01:30:37,083 --> 01:30:39,743
which is to say that they, you would no longer need to complain.

1106
01:30:40,583 --> 01:30:43,383
You're going around and you'd say, oh, life is so hard.

1107
01:30:45,103 --> 01:30:46,623
I can barely make ends meet.

1108
01:30:47,143 --> 01:30:49,603
But then with the UBI world,

1109
01:30:49,792 --> 01:30:50,632
everyone would just say,

1110
01:30:52,172 --> 01:30:57,592
well, I mean, you get UBI like everyone does, you can make ends meet.

1111
01:30:57,752 --> 01:31:02,052
it kind of, it would reduce all the wining of the world, would be my hope.

1112
01:31:02,812 --> 01:31:05,452
Or at least people would no longer take wining as seriously.

1113
01:31:05,652 --> 01:31:09,400
would just kind of discredit people who want, you know, like the crazy Marxist people

1114
01:31:14,200 --> 01:31:20,020
I mean, it's a pretty radical thing that people should probably experiment with on a

1115
01:31:20,020 --> 01:31:23,320
small scale before moving it up.

1116
01:31:23,500 --> 01:31:27,680
I think it's, I mean, a lot of people have suggested that this idea would be a lot

1117
01:31:28,400 --> 01:31:29,009
better than

1118
01:31:29,149 --> 01:31:33,869
what the government currently does, they try to spend, let's say Milton Friedman would

1119
01:31:33,869 --> 01:31:36,029
say, they're spending other people's money on other people.

1120
01:31:36,129 --> 01:31:39,829
It's like when you spend your own money on yourself, you care a lot about whether or

1121
01:31:39,829 --> 01:31:45,149
you want that thing and whether or not you can afford it.

1122
01:31:46,329 --> 01:31:48,529
But then when the government spends money, they don't really care if you

1123
01:31:48,618 --> 01:31:52,378
want, like, did you want another library?

1124
01:31:52,938 --> 01:31:55,478
they definitely don't care about the cost.

1125
01:31:57,498 --> 01:31:59,518
So, yes, now we have some more speakers.

1126
01:32:00,758 --> 01:32:01,478
Klaus, hello.

1127
01:32:03,138 --> 01:32:03,978
Hey, Paul, up?

1128
01:32:04,158 --> 01:32:06,358
doing today? I'm doing great, thanks.

1129
01:32:07,218 --> 01:32:07,538
How are you?

1130
01:32:08,078 --> 01:32:08,227
I'm

1131
01:32:08,427 --> 01:32:14,207
pretty well. just want touch on you describing an alternative in terms of

1132
01:32:14,207 --> 01:32:17,307
scaling or updating Bitcoin.

1133
01:32:18,187 --> 01:32:19,427
Probably a minutes ago.

1134
01:32:20,127 --> 01:32:22,127
I think we spoke in probably a month ago.

1135
01:32:22,247 --> 01:32:23,767
Did you have a chance of looking at GLS?

1136
01:32:24,507 --> 01:32:26,307
think I mentioned it you about a month ago.

1137
01:32:26,327 --> 01:32:27,447
Oh no, I haven't looked into it.

1138
01:32:29,875 --> 01:32:31,895
the the

1139
01:32:37,755 --> 01:32:43,495
the the of skin which see because with

1140
01:32:43,495 --> 01:32:47,444
Chia the farmers make the blocks unlike the pole which makes

1141
01:32:47,444 --> 01:32:48,524
it more decentralized.

1142
01:32:49,564 --> 01:32:54,784
I think CTV is somewhat like it.

1143
01:32:55,644 --> 01:33:00,284
I tagged you in a post about a couple of minutes ago, explaining it, the internet

1144
01:33:00,284 --> 01:33:01,004
basically.

1145
01:33:02,244 --> 01:33:05,224
So it uses hard drive to secure the network.

1146
01:33:05,224 --> 01:33:06,844
Right, right. And we had an

1147
01:33:07,053 --> 01:33:09,573
Nakamoto Conficiency is about 70.

1148
01:33:10,393 --> 01:33:15,693
So it's high -speed thing right now when 100,000 nodes worldwide.

1149
01:33:16,333 --> 01:33:19,073
I feel like it's now for like probably a year now.

1150
01:33:19,393 --> 01:33:22,593
Yeah, look at it and then I will...

1151
01:33:22,593 --> 01:33:24,273
Yeah, would definitely look at it.

1152
01:33:25,293 --> 01:33:25,773
because I don't know.

1153
01:33:26,822 --> 01:33:31,342
yeah, I remember Group of Space and Time and Bram Cohen.

1154
01:33:32,262 --> 01:33:37,662
Interesting guy, that guy, know, he has a lot of handheld puzzles that are 3D printed

1155
01:33:37,662 --> 01:33:39,142
out of metal.

1156
01:33:41,022 --> 01:33:41,902
And yeah,

1157
01:33:43,182 --> 01:33:46,270
landed me one at one point at scaling one, but

1158
01:33:46,270 --> 01:33:47,270
I couldn't solve it.

1159
01:33:47,890 --> 01:33:53,130
Yeah, he's actually working on something new right now in terms of like poker on chain.

1160
01:33:53,890 --> 01:33:56,810
It's a Yeah, it's called mental paper, think.

1161
01:33:57,210 --> 01:34:00,650
It's a very interesting idea, That would be cool.

1162
01:34:01,530 --> 01:34:04,970
Yeah, it's like some high bringing activity stuff.

1163
01:34:05,090 --> 01:34:06,070
was looking at that day.

1164
01:34:06,430 --> 01:34:11,430
Between him and Richard Kiss, who helped him wrote a shield list?

1165
01:34:12,610 --> 01:34:16,270
Cool, great. Okay, also have a Pierre.

1166
01:34:18,170 --> 01:34:20,310
Hello Paul. How you doing?

1167
01:34:21,410 --> 01:34:21,730
Hey.

1168
01:34:22,790 --> 01:34:28,750
So you recently posted about job negotiation

1169
01:34:28,750 --> 01:34:30,570
being a scam, right?

1170
01:34:31,590 --> 01:34:32,170
I did, yeah.

1171
01:34:33,490 --> 01:34:36,610
I just had a thought and wonder if maybe you could help me understand.

1172
01:34:37,410 --> 01:34:42,204
But if there would say like asymmetric MEV,

1173
01:34:42,204 --> 01:34:48,164
MEV, where like one mining pool has extra value, then only they like

1174
01:34:48,164 --> 01:34:50,544
say a contract with someone.

1175
01:34:52,004 --> 01:34:56,224
Wouldn't that then make there not be one appropriate template?

1176
01:34:57,604 --> 01:34:58,804
yes, it would.

1177
01:34:58,904 --> 01:35:00,064
But that would be true of anyone.

1178
01:35:00,204 --> 01:35:01,544
doesn't matter if they're a mining pool.

1179
01:35:02,104 --> 01:35:02,138
You

1180
01:35:02,138 --> 01:35:02,418
know what mean?

1181
01:35:02,738 --> 01:35:05,678
could be some guy would have Jeff somewhere.

1182
01:35:06,298 --> 01:35:08,798
He's the only one who can assemble the block this way.

1183
01:35:10,358 --> 01:35:16,298
So it's not a rebuttal that's specific to

1184
01:35:16,298 --> 01:35:18,398
the relationship between hashboards and pools.

1185
01:35:18,658 --> 01:35:19,898
just some guy has a...

1186
01:35:19,898 --> 01:35:21,578
It's Liquid is kind of the same way.

1187
01:35:21,638 --> 01:35:22,072
All the money goes

1188
01:35:22,112 --> 01:35:23,652
to block stream wallet.

1189
01:35:24,072 --> 01:35:25,572
there's nothing anyone can do to get.

1190
01:35:26,132 --> 01:35:30,052
So is that, you know, is that MEV like in a way,

1191
01:35:32,152 --> 01:35:33,792
but yeah, that's right.

1192
01:35:33,912 --> 01:35:34,352
Yeah, you're right.

1193
01:35:34,912 --> 01:35:40,612
Yeah, and I was thinking though, like if miners don't have an easy option, right?

1194
01:35:40,692 --> 01:35:41,352
I agree with you.

1195
01:35:41,492 --> 01:35:42,005
Yeah, I use

1196
01:35:42,025 --> 01:35:47,845
the pool as the in the question because most miners

1197
01:35:47,845 --> 01:35:51,925
don't have an easy option to create their own template.

1198
01:35:52,365 --> 01:35:57,145
yeah, me as a miner, I was willing to wait however many blocks it would take based on

1199
01:35:57,145 --> 01:35:59,285
my hashrate, I could extract that.

1200
01:35:59,405 --> 01:36:01,939
that was just a clarification that

1201
01:36:02,299 --> 01:36:03,139
I was wondering.

1202
01:36:03,879 --> 01:36:09,699
then also your idea around the filter or the trays you're

1203
01:36:09,699 --> 01:36:10,859
calling it, is that something?

1204
01:36:11,359 --> 01:36:15,359
Yes. You're thinking more hardly because that seems...

1205
01:36:15,359 --> 01:36:16,859
You think that's a better way to go?

1206
01:36:17,459 --> 01:36:21,659
Well, it almost seems like that's the inevitable direction.

1207
01:36:22,153 --> 01:36:25,213
you know, one thing that always bothers me is that I don't see, because what I was

1208
01:36:25,213 --> 01:36:29,733
saying is that I have kind of deliberately taken the route

1209
01:36:32,613 --> 01:36:36,953
where there's so many things I want to say, you know, and I tend to ramble about them.

1210
01:36:37,133 --> 01:36:41,693
But basically, it was because of the weird cultural damage of the block size war that

1211
01:36:41,806 --> 01:36:46,826
people stopped having the idea of like, build something and present it to the miners.

1212
01:36:47,486 --> 01:36:49,526
it's not just that that became taboo.

1213
01:36:50,306 --> 01:36:55,686
also like, I really feel like it affected people's minds, where they would not even,

1214
01:36:55,906 --> 01:36:59,026
this type of idea wouldn't have even occurred to most people.

1215
01:36:59,566 --> 01:37:01,646
And then when Jeremy Rubin finally did

1216
01:37:01,740 --> 01:37:04,900
like a tiny version of it, people freaked out.

1217
01:37:05,820 --> 01:37:06,300
Nonetheless,

1218
01:37:07,680 --> 01:37:11,920
so I kind of was like, as I was sort of trying to mention before, was like, I've always

1219
01:37:11,920 --> 01:37:17,760
avoided actually giving, like I avoided actually producing a piece of

1220
01:37:17,760 --> 01:37:20,880
software to give to people to run.

1221
01:37:20,880 --> 01:37:21,660
because

1222
01:37:21,674 --> 01:37:26,994
I thought maybe that is too extreme, but at the same time, without that, there's no

1223
01:37:26,994 --> 01:37:27,834
call to action.

1224
01:37:28,214 --> 01:37:34,154
almost everything that I say is pointless because the only thing you can do is read the

1225
01:37:34,154 --> 01:37:40,054
BIPs, download the testnet software, which runs on $16.99, which is not

1226
01:37:40,054 --> 01:37:41,608
up

1227
01:37:41,668 --> 01:37:44,068
not up to date, like with the current Bitcoin core.

1228
01:37:44,348 --> 01:37:49,368
It's, you know, to date in other ways, but, so there's like nothing to do except like

1229
01:37:49,368 --> 01:37:53,188
try to get more support, but I kind of had thought like, what I'm trying to give an

1230
01:37:53,188 --> 01:37:58,988
impression is that that was the, the prevailing Bitcoin culture kind of slots

1231
01:37:58,988 --> 01:38:01,468
you into that, that MO

1232
01:38:01,562 --> 01:38:06,722
of like, just make a website and then talk about the idea.

1233
01:38:07,701 --> 01:38:11,382
then for to build something and take it to the miners is like whatever kind of

1234
01:38:11,382 --> 01:38:13,481
declaring war or something.

1235
01:38:13,602 --> 01:38:14,541
It really isn't though.

1236
01:38:14,701 --> 01:38:16,161
course, it's a silly thing to do.

1237
01:38:16,422 --> 01:38:20,281
Imagine any other mining context where it was like, you were going to like you have a

1238
01:38:20,281 --> 01:38:21,475
new immersion cooling thing,

1239
01:38:21,815 --> 01:38:25,935
and you're like, how dare you market it directly to the miners.

1240
01:38:26,275 --> 01:38:29,255
should instead talk about it on the Bitcoin Dev mailing list.

1241
01:38:29,595 --> 01:38:33,955
you know, with, you should talk about it on the mining dev mailing list against all of

1242
01:38:33,955 --> 01:38:35,415
your competitors, really.

1243
01:38:36,055 --> 01:38:39,735
So you can see like all the good that would do, which is like nothing.

1244
01:38:40,755 --> 01:38:41,375
So but I think,

1245
01:38:41,409 --> 01:38:44,669
yeah, definitely that's I think I'll code that up and we'll just see.

1246
01:38:44,749 --> 01:38:47,929
We'll code that up and then we'll just put it out there and then we can all get a good

1247
01:38:47,929 --> 01:38:50,409
look at exactly what that is.

1248
01:38:52,969 --> 01:38:58,769
I think then how you go about like, quote unquote, activating it outside of the

1249
01:38:58,769 --> 01:39:01,343
core, you know, whatever that process

1250
01:39:01,603 --> 01:39:07,103
would be it just don't like I said, it seems necessary and I agree with a lot of

1251
01:39:07,103 --> 01:39:11,243
hypocrisy Because I think of something like covert a sick boost right?

1252
01:39:11,263 --> 01:39:15,503
Like that's something that was created and kept secret and

1253
01:39:17,123 --> 01:39:18,263
Seen is very evil.

1254
01:39:18,263 --> 01:39:21,276
So if you create something for miners, I

1255
01:39:22,756 --> 01:39:24,456
it's a matter of perspective, think.

1256
01:39:24,837 --> 01:39:30,756
yeah, there'll be hate coming from probably a lot of very outspoken people, like I

1257
01:39:30,756 --> 01:39:32,136
said, seems necessary.

1258
01:39:32,656 --> 01:39:35,916
Well, there certainly is also another, there's like a game theoretic angle that goes

1259
01:39:35,916 --> 01:39:36,696
something like this.

1260
01:39:36,776 --> 01:39:40,136
It says, well, I already didn't do anything.

1261
01:39:41,930 --> 01:39:44,710
Their hate is already present and misinformed.

1262
01:39:45,010 --> 01:39:47,310
So it's like, I'm already unpopular with those people.

1263
01:39:47,810 --> 01:39:52,620
So now I will not get any more unpopular with the same people.

1264
01:39:54,170 --> 01:39:54,450
know what I mean?

1265
01:39:54,570 --> 01:39:55,910
a good sacrifice to Chespies.

1266
01:39:57,870 --> 01:40:00,090
That's great perspective to have, I would think.

1267
01:40:00,410 --> 01:40:00,650
yeah,

1268
01:40:01,404 --> 01:40:02,344
it couldn't get any worse.

1269
01:40:03,344 --> 01:40:09,324
to me, like, it seems less extreme than starting an altcoin, because you are

1270
01:40:09,324 --> 01:40:14,884
attempting to remain part of the development of Bitcoin, because that's where you're

1271
01:40:14,884 --> 01:40:15,624
trying to progress.

1272
01:40:16,284 --> 01:40:18,944
Like, the more extreme, say, oh, I'll go make my own coin.

1273
01:40:20,804 --> 01:40:21,078
But

1274
01:40:21,078 --> 01:40:26,498
it's a tough problem solve right thanks ball yeah because people say like yeah okay

1275
01:40:26,498 --> 01:40:31,578
yeah welcome but it's like people would say like 119 oh it should be on bitcoin

1276
01:40:31,578 --> 01:40:37,358
inquisition which it is but I mean who who was ever really persuaded by

1277
01:40:37,358 --> 01:40:41,012
that I think no one so this

1278
01:40:41,512 --> 01:40:47,232
is the supposed thing that you're supposed to do, but it doesn't do anything.

1279
01:40:48,852 --> 01:40:52,192
I think everyone, in their heart of hearts,

1280
01:40:53,451 --> 01:40:58,312
they really know that the process is broken, and everyone also

1281
01:40:58,312 --> 01:41:00,852
thinks that that's partially a good thing,

1282
01:41:00,985 --> 01:41:06,225
including me. Everyone thinks like, okay, it shouldn't be easy to

1283
01:41:06,225 --> 01:41:11,825
get involved with Bitcoin and injecting your ideas in.

1284
01:41:12,925 --> 01:41:17,465
yet, it just doesn't, it would be fine if it was, I wouldn't really care about this so

1285
01:41:17,465 --> 01:41:20,825
much if we already had immense privacy,

1286
01:41:21,619 --> 01:41:24,499
user -friendly, multi -sig, planetary scale.

1287
01:41:24,719 --> 01:41:30,499
If Lightning was working great, I really wouldn't care so much if it was just

1288
01:41:30,499 --> 01:41:35,039
smooth sailing from here to hyper -Bitcoinization, then I would just think, okay, then

1289
01:41:35,039 --> 01:41:37,539
it's fine. it's like, unfortunately, I know better.

1290
01:41:38,399 --> 01:41:38,979
have an RJ.

1291
01:41:39,639 --> 01:41:40,199
Hello.

1292
01:41:41,653 --> 01:41:43,333
.J. Nomad. Hey, Paul.

1293
01:41:44,073 --> 01:41:44,633
How are you?

1294
01:41:44,873 --> 01:41:44,893
Really?

1295
01:41:46,973 --> 01:41:47,873
I'm great, thanks.

1296
01:41:48,353 --> 01:41:48,673
How are you?

1297
01:41:49,013 --> 01:41:49,613
I'm good, man.

1298
01:41:50,113 --> 01:41:51,453
Thanks for having me here.

1299
01:41:51,993 --> 01:41:52,553
Hello, everyone.

1300
01:41:53,933 --> 01:41:54,493
GMGM.

1301
01:41:56,073 --> 01:42:00,433
And Paul, before I come to the Drivechain part, would just

1302
01:42:01,346 --> 01:42:07,166
I was there on the week's show

1303
01:42:07,166 --> 01:42:12,786
as a couldn't participate because I was into something or maybe I didn't have much to

1304
01:42:12,786 --> 01:42:13,606
add at that time.

1305
01:42:14,586 --> 01:42:19,306
But I really like the way you were asking people to come up first of all because I mean

1306
01:42:19,306 --> 01:42:20,680
there is a lot of literature that

1307
01:42:20,740 --> 01:42:24,680
you have already created around Drivechain, your blog, there are multiple videos that

1308
01:42:24,680 --> 01:42:25,280
you can find.

1309
01:42:26,240 --> 01:42:28,720
But this open forum, you know, it really helps.

1310
01:42:29,840 --> 01:42:31,480
I wanted to say that first.

1311
01:42:34,160 --> 01:42:38,660
Now, coming back to the last discussion that we were having and I told you that, I'll

1312
01:42:38,660 --> 01:42:40,614
go back and, you

1313
01:42:40,974 --> 01:42:41,714
about it more.

1314
01:42:42,134 --> 01:42:45,394
did it. So there's a small story that I want to tell you.

1315
01:42:45,754 --> 01:42:51,454
And I just request you that you can just guide, if that makes sense to you.

1316
01:42:51,694 --> 01:42:53,594
And finally, if I've understood the peg.

1317
01:42:54,574 --> 01:43:00,334
So like, I want to launch a Drivechain and I log 20 BTC on

1318
01:43:00,548 --> 01:43:04,628
Bitcoin and I issue 200 tokens on my Drivechain.

1319
01:43:05,028 --> 01:43:10,208
So I'm using these 220 BTC just to make the mathematics simple.

1320
01:43:11,408 --> 01:43:16,548
So by this calculation, one token of my on my Drivechain is 0.1 BTC.

1321
01:43:17,888 --> 01:43:20,482
Now after some time due to adoption and

1322
01:43:20,722 --> 01:43:26,602
whatever utility that I create out of it, the value of my token is equal

1323
01:43:26,602 --> 01:43:32,322
to X. what is this X is, this is basically the value which is equivalent to one 0

1324
01:43:32,322 --> 01:43:36,062
.12 BTC, which is basically my project is doing good.

1325
01:43:36,542 --> 01:43:40,322
And you are right that if if this is happening, then why would someone

1326
01:43:40,415 --> 01:43:41,335
try to take a withdrawal?

1327
01:43:43,535 --> 01:43:49,315
mean, you know, someone still want to say that, no, no, I want to get into

1328
01:43:49,315 --> 01:43:49,715
BTC.

1329
01:43:51,075 --> 01:43:56,695
So for example,.1 BTC is $4,000 and my token is trading at

1330
01:43:56,695 --> 01:43:57,635
$4,800.

1331
01:43:59,195 --> 01:44:00,349
So there is no

1332
01:44:00,529 --> 01:44:05,509
way I want to get out of it back into BTC because if I take a withdrawal,

1333
01:44:06,789 --> 01:44:12,469
I will receive the value only which was there at the time of initial peg, is 0.1 BTC.

1334
01:44:13,109 --> 01:44:17,889
So, is it a correct understanding first of all that no matter how good or bad your

1335
01:44:17,889 --> 01:44:20,283
token is doing, if you trying to get back

1336
01:44:20,383 --> 01:44:23,543
to BTC, will get whatever value is the initial pick.

1337
01:44:24,903 --> 01:44:30,083
Yeah, the software is kind of like an ATM where if you put a $20 bill

1338
01:44:30,083 --> 01:44:31,763
in, an ATM,

1339
01:44:32,963 --> 01:44:36,803
we use the phrase like withdraw $20 from my checking account.

1340
01:44:37,383 --> 01:44:40,216
But that's a little loose because

1341
01:44:40,496 --> 01:44:45,996
although that is what happens, it's an abstract $20 that travels.

1342
01:44:46,836 --> 01:44:50,856
you really, get $20 worth of cash, you get something different.

1343
01:44:51,956 --> 01:44:55,156
Your checking account balance goes down by $20.

1344
01:44:56,436 --> 01:44:59,976
Now, of course, that's the whole point is that you need to convert between one and the

1345
01:44:59,976 --> 01:45:00,150
other.

1346
01:45:00,830 --> 01:45:02,050
But they are kind of a different thing.

1347
01:45:02,190 --> 01:45:04,250
And you could even go to like a laundromat and you could say,

1348
01:45:05,590 --> 01:45:10,830
you put a $1 bill into the change machine and you get four quarters.

1349
01:45:11,170 --> 01:45:16,830
you get $1, you lose $1 in $1 bills, and you gain $1

1350
01:45:16,830 --> 01:45:20,084
in quarters. so the

1351
01:45:20,084 --> 01:45:22,384
software under the hood is swapping.

1352
01:45:22,804 --> 01:45:26,924
When you have four BTC, you deposit that in the sidechain.

1353
01:45:27,664 --> 01:45:33,284
The sidechain software will credit you with four coins over there, four side

1354
01:45:33,284 --> 01:45:35,724
BTC. And when you do the withdrawal,

1355
01:45:37,524 --> 01:45:39,404
sidechain is going to

1356
01:45:40,018 --> 01:45:44,238
you know, now you're owed 4.2 BTC.

1357
01:45:45,758 --> 01:45:51,358
That 4.2 number, that's like, you know, the ATM is going to convert it for you.

1358
01:45:51,638 --> 01:45:57,478
you have 4.2 coins that you get deleted off of LayerTwo, and then you get 4

1359
01:45:57,478 --> 01:45:59,952
.2 BTC. whatever the US dollar,

1360
01:46:00,132 --> 01:46:03,312
either of them could be whatever trading at any US dollar value.

1361
01:46:03,572 --> 01:46:08,992
If the L2 coins are trading at a higher value, then you will have

1362
01:46:08,992 --> 01:46:14,212
lost some purchasing power, some net worth

1363
01:46:14,212 --> 01:46:16,492
by doing the withdrawal.

1364
01:46:16,492 --> 01:46:19,885
But you'll lose 4.2 coins on

1365
01:46:19,985 --> 01:46:23,025
L2, and then you'll gain 4.2 coins on L1.

1366
01:46:23,505 --> 01:46:25,345
So the BTC amount will be the same.

1367
01:46:26,405 --> 01:46:31,225
It's very implausible that the sidechain coins would be worth more, because anyone can

1368
01:46:31,225 --> 01:46:32,525
always deposit instantly.

1369
01:46:32,905 --> 01:46:33,985
That always works.

1370
01:46:34,885 --> 01:46:35,685
that is not.

1371
01:46:36,685 --> 01:46:39,765
So if that were really the case, people would buy a bunch of

1372
01:46:39,819 --> 01:46:45,699
L1 coins, deposit them instantly, and start using them in whatever way gets them

1373
01:46:45,699 --> 01:46:51,019
$48, $100 worth of value or whatever the numbers were.

1374
01:46:52,559 --> 01:46:58,459
But it's always possible that the peg will dip below one to one, or even go to

1375
01:46:58,459 --> 01:46:59,753
zero to one if the sidechain

1376
01:46:59,753 --> 01:47:01,033
The thing

1377
01:47:01,033 --> 01:47:06,593
is, buy

1378
01:47:06,593 --> 01:47:08,353
a

1379
01:47:09,913 --> 01:47:12,273
can a

1380
01:47:12,273 --> 01:47:18,093
BIP1, BIP1, BIP1, BIP1, They buy

1381
01:47:18,093 --> 01:47:19,353
with only 0

1382
01:47:20,046 --> 01:47:21,486
L1 coin.

1383
01:47:23,026 --> 01:47:28,526
.7 they buy one L2 coin and then they when they withdraw, as I just told you, when they

1384
01:47:28,526 --> 01:47:31,526
withdraw using BIP300, not using the swap.

1385
01:47:33,166 --> 01:47:36,706
Because the swap could be anything, when they withdraw with the, know, swap was like

1386
01:47:36,706 --> 01:47:37,886
the open market immediately.

1387
01:47:39,106 --> 01:47:39,546
So there's like,

1388
01:47:39,620 --> 01:47:44,840
they're going out there and buying up everyone's, the coins are trapped on L2, but

1389
01:47:44,840 --> 01:47:46,720
miners buy them all up and then walk them back.

1390
01:47:47,240 --> 01:47:52,560
when they walk them back, they will get 0.1 L1 coins.

1391
01:47:52,740 --> 01:47:57,980
So it's a big machine that says you start with 0.7 L1 coins and you end with 1.0.

1392
01:47:59,140 --> 01:47:59,554
0.7,

1393
01:47:59,554 --> 01:48:02,694
.7, swap for one L2 coin, then you withdraw it.

1394
01:48:02,974 --> 01:48:05,934
So that's why, you know, that's kind of why I think the peg is likely to hold.

1395
01:48:06,454 --> 01:48:09,714
Of course, there's no guarantee that all this will work.

1396
01:48:10,454 --> 01:48:15,494
It all may fail spectacularly, but so can everything else, so can, you know, the

1397
01:48:15,494 --> 01:48:19,174
Lightning Network is already, it's interesting that the way this works is kind of a

1398
01:48:19,174 --> 01:48:19,488
little bit

1399
01:48:19,628 --> 01:48:21,208
more communal, all or nothing,

1400
01:48:23,768 --> 01:48:28,648
where it works perfectly for everyone, or it will explode and not work.

1401
01:48:29,668 --> 01:48:31,008
will suck for everyone.

1402
01:48:31,628 --> 01:48:37,248
Whereas lightning is kind of more divisible, so it's breaking into

1403
01:48:37,248 --> 01:48:39,422
pieces, in the sense of

1404
01:48:39,422 --> 01:48:44,121
people switching to feel worried about the payment routes fail and then they switch to

1405
01:48:44,121 --> 01:48:50,102
custodial lightning and then they if all the Satoshi gets pulled and it's all

1406
01:48:50,102 --> 01:48:54,541
goes to five LSPs so I don't know if that's so is this is this answering your question

1407
01:48:54,541 --> 01:48:59,302
at all so like what

1408
01:48:59,355 --> 01:49:04,855
I'm trying to say is like you said that 4.4 L1 coins is equal

1409
01:49:04,855 --> 01:49:07,375
to 4 L2 coins initially.

1410
01:49:08,095 --> 01:49:13,495
Then after a time you can say that 4.2 L2 coin is equal to 4 L1 coins.

1411
01:49:14,375 --> 01:49:18,855
Now when I'm taking a withdrawal in terms of BTC,

1412
01:49:19,289 --> 01:49:22,969
a... Yes. I mean, I would...

1413
01:49:22,969 --> 01:49:27,669
can I get 4.2 BTC when all I stayed was 4?

1414
01:49:28,249 --> 01:49:29,269
mean... Okay.

1415
01:49:30,689 --> 01:49:33,789
with the deposits and the withdrawals, that's like the ATM.

1416
01:49:34,129 --> 01:49:39,223
So that will always give you one -to -one or whatever the fixed rate is.

1417
01:49:39,624 --> 01:49:48,383
So you always give you a one-to-one in terms of L1 coins. So, uh, and, but that has the feature that the

1418
01:49:48,383 --> 01:49:54,984
withdrawals take three months and you have to join with everyone else's withdrawal and ride back.

1419
01:49:55,944 --> 01:50:04,703
Now, in addition to using the ATM, there's an instant deposit, but three-month withdrawal. So like the

1420
01:50:04,703 --> 01:50:11,504
withdrawal is like a big envelope slowly comes out with everyone, like 20,000 people's money, but maybe

1421
01:50:11,504 --> 01:50:16,903
you're not wanting, maybe, you know, you missed the train, so to speak. And so in addition to doing that,

1422
01:50:16,944 --> 01:50:23,703
regular people walking around, just like you can sell someone a hat or a sandwich, people can swap L1

1423
01:50:23,703 --> 01:50:31,184
and L2 coins whenever they want. They can even do HTLC, cryptographic swap. So they can go on Coinbase. So

1424
01:50:31,184 --> 01:50:38,823
they can do, they can do it in innumerable ways. They can just meet and I can send you X L1 and you can send

1425
01:50:38,823 --> 01:50:46,223
me Y L2. Right. Does that make sense? Do you see the difference between these two modes? Does that make sense

1426
01:50:46,223 --> 01:50:51,424
or no? Because one of those, when you use the deposit withdrawal system, you are changing the quantity of

1427
01:50:51,783 --> 01:51:00,023
coins on the sidechain. When you deposit, it's going up. So you have 21 million coins and they're all on BTC on

1428
01:51:00,023 --> 01:51:05,944
day one, but then some of them flow to sidechains. When you deposit, you're moving that the global number

1429
01:51:06,184 --> 01:51:12,023
worldwide, people are saying, oh, the Zcash sidechain is getting more usage. That number is going up. And when

1430
01:51:12,023 --> 01:51:16,304
you withdraw, the numbers goes back down. If everyone withdraws all the coins, then it'll go down to zero for

1431
01:51:16,304 --> 01:51:18,583
everyone. And no one will, the sidechain will be abandoned.

1432
01:51:19,463 --> 01:51:22,864
Okay, so I'm withdrawing, I'm diminishing the, sorry.

1433
01:51:22,864 --> 01:51:29,424
Total quantity of coins on that sidechain, which is a globally available number. You know, everyone knows that

1434
01:51:29,424 --> 01:51:35,583
there's 4 million coins on the Zcash sidechain. I'm just making this up. Is that making sense so far?

1435
01:51:36,504 --> 01:51:37,583
Yeah, but

1436
01:51:37,583 --> 01:51:47,143
now that you say, yeah, it's completely different from the swaps. When you swap, you are not doing that. If

1437
01:51:47,143 --> 01:51:53,944
there's 4 million coins on the Zcash sidechain, there will be 4 million after the swap, 4 million before, during,

1438
01:51:53,944 --> 01:52:02,023
after, etc. So this is just two people meeting, and them saying, you know what, I wish I had Zcash coins. And

1439
01:52:02,023 --> 01:52:08,424
the friend is like, Oh, I have some. It's like you, it's like you and a friend, you, one of you wants cash, and

1440
01:52:08,463 --> 01:52:14,903
but you have Venmo. You know, you say, Okay, listen, I need some cash. And your friend says, Okay, I have $20

1441
01:52:14,903 --> 01:52:24,744
worth of cash. And they say, Okay, I'll Venmo you. So the person Venmo, a Venmo is $20 to the person, then you

1442
01:52:24,744 --> 01:52:30,783
slide the $20 bill across the table. So in that case, there is no deposit or withdrawing happening. It's just a

1443
01:52:30,783 --> 01:52:33,504
swap. It's just switching one thing for another.

1444
01:52:33,903 --> 01:52:35,504
It's pair to pair transactions.

1445
01:52:35,823 --> 01:52:36,343
Yes.

1446
01:52:37,783 --> 01:52:39,023
You just described shareless.

1447
01:52:39,383 --> 01:52:45,664
Or there could be there could be a middleman in the case of Coinbase, where you deposit to Coinbase, and you buy and

1448
01:52:45,664 --> 01:52:50,184
sell and they have a middleman to do the liquidity and plenty of people probably do that.

1449
01:52:50,783 --> 01:52:52,864
But won't they take a fee out of that?

1450
01:52:53,223 --> 01:52:54,944
They will. Yes, yes, yes.

1451
01:52:55,223 --> 01:52:56,544
That's my only issue right now.

1452
01:52:56,783 --> 01:53:02,823
You know, of course, they have to feed but think about like this way, when you swap with a friend peer to peer, there's

1453
01:53:02,823 --> 01:53:07,383
also kind of an implicit fee because you don't know that your friend is always going to be there for you. And they're

1454
01:53:07,383 --> 01:53:12,463
always going to have like the right amount of cash that you want or something. So I'm just trying to emphasize that

1455
01:53:12,504 --> 01:53:21,583
these two things are very different. And in only one of them, can the exchange rate float to deposits, withdrawals

1456
01:53:21,624 --> 01:53:28,783
cannot. So deposit withdrawals, the withdrawal takes three months, you are using the BIP300 rules, you are changing the

1457
01:53:28,783 --> 01:53:37,624
global quantity of coins on the sidechain versus on L1. And that thing, the exchange rate is fixed. In the swap, the

1458
01:53:37,624 --> 01:53:45,104
exchange rate is you know, you can imagine sitting down with your friend and you say, Listen, I really need $20 worth of

1459
01:53:45,104 --> 01:53:53,544
cash. And your friend says, Oh, I have $20. But I need it. I'm taking it to whatever, I don't know, the strip club. And I

1460
01:53:53,544 --> 01:53:59,823
really, really need it. And then you're like, No, no, no, I really need the cash, I have to go to whatever place that only

1461
01:53:59,823 --> 01:54:08,823
takes cash. And so that eventually, the friend says, Okay, listen, I'll give you the $20. But you have to Venmo me $30. So

1462
01:54:08,823 --> 01:54:15,783
you see that now that now it's floating around. So that's what I mean, when I say the peg may, it may slip from one to one to

1463
01:54:15,783 --> 01:54:21,544
something else. But if it does, miners will buy up that one of the things that might happen is that they would, they would buy

1464
01:54:21,544 --> 01:54:29,263
it up, they'd say, Okay, I'll, I'll spend $20 to get $30. Because when they walk it back, it's one to one again. So I don't

1465
01:54:29,263 --> 01:54:31,104
know if that is making any sense. But

1466
01:54:32,104 --> 01:54:39,424
yeah, let's say you're going to come right now. In the end, you probably still have to pay some form of fee when you're doing a swap. Is

1467
01:54:39,424 --> 01:54:40,343
that the same?

1468
01:54:43,343 --> 01:54:53,664
The atomic swap has the advantage that since it does not rely as much on trust or identity, it's probably pretty easy to just, you

1469
01:54:53,664 --> 01:54:59,783
know, you just show up and you can connect to anyone on the internet and offer them the HTLC swap. And since the two of you

1470
01:54:59,783 --> 01:55:06,783
don't really need to know each other, you don't need Coinbase to facilitate and you they also can't scam you and they're also

1471
01:55:06,783 --> 01:55:11,463
probably widely available because if you're free, you know, you don't you don't just you're not just beholden to the one

1472
01:55:11,463 --> 01:55:19,583
friend, it can just be anyone on the internet. So that those are very desirable. The atomic swaps, they may be the optimal way

1473
01:55:19,583 --> 01:55:25,624
of doing that. Or maybe not. I don't know. It may depend on the person. I'm not sure it depends on the scenario. Probably also

1474
01:55:25,624 --> 01:55:33,424
Coinbase would be great because you know, the fees they are pretty low. I mean, not Coinbase is maybe but the crack and fees even to

1475
01:55:33,424 --> 01:55:41,223
move like I was just glancing at them. It's not that I was paying such fee magnitudes, but like to move, you know, swap like $10

1476
01:55:41,223 --> 01:55:50,143
million or something is like, it's really not that much, you know, compared to like a broker in normal stock brokerage universe

1477
01:55:50,143 --> 01:56:02,263
where you get charged a fortune. I mean, some of it is a highway robbery. I mean, I, my trade by is mostly in the vanguard world, you

1478
01:56:02,263 --> 01:56:11,104
know, where, where, where fees are not especially low. And I knew a little bit about some of these places that you can go, you know,

1479
01:56:11,104 --> 01:56:23,343
it's like, for a stock trade, it would be 30 $50 flat plus a percent of something. And I just it's hard for me to imagine stuff

1480
01:56:23,343 --> 01:56:32,903
costing that much. This is all just a fleece fleecing, fleecing people with money. Anyway, I hope this is clearing it up slightly RJ. I

1481
01:56:32,903 --> 01:56:38,703
don't know. I hope it is a little is that is it making sense? Maybe you can restate it if it's not clear.

1482
01:56:39,703 --> 01:56:54,223
So, a lot better, first of all. So, what I'm saying is that if you are removing certain supply by doing a withdrawal to L1 from L2, so for

1483
01:56:54,223 --> 01:57:02,184
example, I diminish a certain supply of L2 by taking a withdrawal. So, I'm also unlocking a certain proportion of that BTC that I've

1484
01:57:02,184 --> 01:57:08,783
logged at the time of you know, when I launched the drivechain. Is that correct?

1485
01:57:09,383 --> 01:57:10,103
It is. Yes.

1486
01:57:11,184 --> 01:57:19,103
Yeah, yeah. Now making much more sense. So, Paul, would it be would it be right way to say that, just like we have a gold

1487
01:57:19,103 --> 01:57:30,623
standard, this truly can be a way of having a BTC standard, where you have just like you print dollars or INR or whatever, using

1488
01:57:30,623 --> 01:57:34,544
gold standard, you can have multiple sidechains using BTC standard.

1489
01:57:36,824 --> 01:57:38,944
I think so. Yes. I mean, I have a

1490
01:57:38,944 --> 01:57:47,983
I mean, everybody is it, you know, in the gray area right now, should it be a transacting currency or should it be a store of

1491
01:57:47,983 --> 01:58:02,503
value? So, I mean, this is a lot making sense to me, especially in terms of, you know, drivechain, having a BTC standard for

1492
01:58:02,503 --> 01:58:11,783
issuance, of course, that can go here and there based on the demand. And would it be right to say that if there is no chance

1493
01:58:11,783 --> 01:58:20,064
that an L2 coin can go to zero, it can the minimum it can go is the minimum ceiling, which is the initial peg, which is one on one

1494
01:58:20,064 --> 01:58:20,983
peg with the BTC.

1495
01:58:23,783 --> 01:58:31,664
I think a lot of that is right. I mean, it can theoretically where it would go to zero would be if something happened and the all of

1496
01:58:31,664 --> 01:58:38,863
the coins were stolen, like they were missed withdrawal, or it's just impossible to run a sidechain node. So it's impossible to

1497
01:58:38,863 --> 01:58:45,464
determine who the rightful owner is of the coins at which point, you know, there'd be anyone would own them and miners would maybe take

1498
01:58:45,464 --> 01:58:56,743
them or something. But the I think it is I do think of it as like, I think I think money is inherently very hierarchical, which people don't,

1499
01:58:57,103 --> 01:59:08,103
they don't really appreciate or we kind of subconsciously are aware of it, but it's kind of goes something like this. You, you go to the

1500
01:59:08,103 --> 01:59:19,983
restaurant and you buy food, but you pay with a Visa card. So it's like Visa is we sometimes you say like an intermediary or middleman, but

1501
01:59:19,983 --> 01:59:31,824
it's really, they are kind of above. They're not just in the middle, they, they are more central location on the hierarchy, you know, so you go

1502
01:59:31,824 --> 01:59:40,664
you pay with Visa, and they get paid in Visa, they have Visa credit card services, they get paid. And Visa has a bank account. And you have a

1503
01:59:40,664 --> 01:59:52,304
bank account, like I could write a check to someone who, you know, to like, I don't know, a plumber or something. And the check, they cash the

1504
01:59:52,304 --> 02:00:03,903
check at their bank, and their bank might be the same as mine, in which case, it's just like Visa, or the it might be a different bank, in which

1505
02:00:03,903 --> 02:00:04,983
case it goes through

1506
02:00:05,491 --> 02:00:35,491
it would have been a clearing house. So what sometimes still is because there are still these private clearing houses, but it could also go through the Fed. So the Fed, it's a big pyramid where the Fed is, it depends on where you stop. It depends on the scale. So like worldwide, it's the Bank of International Settlements, which is like a Fed of feds. And then the Fed would be in the United States, the top of the pyramid, and then it goes down to all the member banks. And then we all have ever we all of us have accounts.

1507
02:00:35,491 --> 02:00:44,371
at these, these member banks. And so it's a big, it's a big pyramid. And that is their own federal banks.

1508
02:00:45,331 --> 02:00:48,691
Yeah, the L1 would be like the Bank of International Settlements.

1509
02:00:49,811 --> 02:00:54,930
Except that anyone it's, you know, much more open because anyone would be able to have,

1510
02:00:54,930 --> 02:00:57,491
right now we all do we all have an account on L1.

1511
02:01:00,211 --> 02:01:04,770
But I bring this up because most people go their whole lives without really knowing anything about

1512
02:01:06,051 --> 02:01:10,211
either the Fed or the Bank of International Settlements. So it just goes to show

1513
02:01:10,211 --> 02:01:14,611
that the tip top of the pyramid is something that most people can ignore.

1514
02:01:15,491 --> 02:01:23,010
And that is why I like to mention that the BIP300 sidechain like scaling idea,

1515
02:01:24,370 --> 02:01:29,811
it involves people just onboarding to the sidechain and then offboarding from it directly

1516
02:01:29,811 --> 02:01:35,891
without going through L1. And because there's not enough space on L1. But people sometimes

1517
02:01:35,891 --> 02:01:40,291
they're worried about that. But I'm saying this the world you already live in. You already live

1518
02:01:40,291 --> 02:01:45,090
in a world where none of us have an account at the Fed. And the other thing is no one,

1519
02:01:45,090 --> 02:01:51,251
no one has ever seen really a reserve. We have cash, we have like maybe a federal reserve note,

1520
02:01:51,251 --> 02:01:57,410
but that's not the same thing. Reserves at the Fed are just they're their own thing. They're

1521
02:01:57,410 --> 02:02:04,130
like what I was saying before about switching a $20 of checking account for a $20 bill or

1522
02:02:04,130 --> 02:02:10,690
switching $1 bill for four quarters. The reserve is its own type of thing. And I don't know,

1523
02:02:10,690 --> 02:02:15,811
I'm not aware of anyone having ever really paid for anything with a reserve. Although that's an

1524
02:02:15,811 --> 02:02:23,011
interesting academic question that I would love if someone can produce some kind of link to

1525
02:02:23,011 --> 02:02:27,250
something about that. But I don't know, like maybe during the financial crisis, 2008 or

1526
02:02:27,250 --> 02:02:32,291
something. But I'm not sure. I think it's like its own thing. Like you can imagine it as if it

1527
02:02:32,291 --> 02:02:41,970
were like a red $20 bill. It's like its own weird thing that only the Fed uses, you know.

1528
02:02:41,970 --> 02:02:45,571
And then but the Bank of International Settlements would also be using, you know,

1529
02:02:46,211 --> 02:02:50,610
it's kind of a little it gets a little maybe arcane and technical, but I'm just trying to

1530
02:02:51,170 --> 02:02:54,610
sketch it out that the money is already hierarchical. So you asked about can we

1531
02:02:54,610 --> 02:03:01,890
make this into like a kind of thing where this stuff is settling on L1 and then the other stuff

1532
02:03:01,890 --> 02:03:08,851
is on the sidechain. So that is what I would imagine. That's like the part of the idea. Yes.

1533
02:03:08,851 --> 02:03:12,451
I don't know. Maybe it's a long winded answer. So sorry about that.

1534
02:03:13,410 --> 02:03:21,011
No, no, no. Thanks a lot. It makes a lot of sense now. And, you know, I just like to share that

1535
02:03:22,130 --> 02:03:28,371
at the starting of the year when ordinals came, a lot of people were of this opinion that great,

1536
02:03:28,371 --> 02:03:33,731
this has solved a problem for miners. Now we have a way of earning, you know, making them on more

1537
02:03:33,731 --> 02:03:38,770
transaction fee. It's good for the chain. But right now what's happening is it's clogging the

1538
02:03:38,770 --> 02:03:48,690
chain. It's making it more expensive. So if we see a timeline of 5, 10 or maybe 15 years, it will

1539
02:03:48,690 --> 02:03:54,851
be practically impossible for a retail customer to transact on Bitcoin if the same thing goes.

1540
02:03:55,410 --> 02:04:04,050
So I feel that drivechain would be a more natural shift of people who will actually start

1541
02:04:04,050 --> 02:04:12,530
to think in this way that, okay, L2s are, you know, layer 2 solutions are one of the

1542
02:04:13,890 --> 02:04:19,011
way of doing it. But second way of doing it could be drivechains also.

1543
02:04:20,770 --> 02:04:27,890
I mean, all the traffic, all the transactions are happening on L2s. On L1, literally nothing

1544
02:04:27,890 --> 02:04:34,610
is happening just other than just mining and creating a concrete block timeline.

1545
02:04:35,811 --> 02:04:39,411
Well, I think that, yeah, I mean, I agree. But I mean, I think that,

1546
02:04:39,411 --> 02:04:43,730
I think drivechain is a layer 2. In fact, in a way, I think it's one of the few.

1547
02:04:45,890 --> 02:04:51,651
I think almost the Lightning Network is not a layer 2 because you cannot onboard to it. You

1548
02:04:51,651 --> 02:05:00,850
can't join it without doing something on L1. You have to declare your key or whatever on L1.

1549
02:05:00,850 --> 02:05:13,570
So I think it's sort of almost half not an L2 because it's too tightly connected to L1 actually.

1550
02:05:13,570 --> 02:05:18,850
So it moves in lockstep with L1. And so I just think actually it's not, I think this is just

1551
02:05:18,850 --> 02:05:24,211
part of how the whole community has gone in the wrong direction where we allowed ourselves to get

1552
02:05:24,211 --> 02:05:30,450
brainwashed by Lightning. And, you know, people are trained for so long to just think of like,

1553
02:05:30,450 --> 02:05:35,971
oh, everyone who is against Lightning is like a big blocker or something.

1554
02:05:37,651 --> 02:05:43,170
And that's just how silly everyone is. I mean, I'm in favor of shrinking L1 block size.

1555
02:05:43,491 --> 02:05:50,691
And I always have been. You can even see it. I presented this in October 2016 at Scaling 3

1556
02:05:50,691 --> 02:05:59,651
about shrinking the L1 block size. So I'm probably the most consistent and smallest of blockers.

1557
02:06:00,931 --> 02:06:09,091
But it's just like everyone is slotted into these views, these simplistic views of just

1558
02:06:09,411 --> 02:06:14,531
where Lightning is just supposed to be great. And anyone who criticizes Lightning is just

1559
02:06:15,730 --> 02:06:22,290
immediately interpreted as an evil person who must be up to something. And that is exactly why

1560
02:06:22,290 --> 02:06:28,211
Lightning has successfully destroyed most of our culture. The people who originally created it were

1561
02:06:28,211 --> 02:06:33,330
not even, you know, like Taj Draja and Joseph Poon. They didn't even think it was that great.

1562
02:06:33,330 --> 02:06:37,651
And they quickly went along, quickly along to inventing the L1 block size.

1563
02:06:37,811 --> 02:06:43,651
Quickly along to inventing other things. Taj Draja went on to uTreeXO, which is actually way

1564
02:06:43,651 --> 02:06:49,971
cooler than the Lightning Network. And Joseph Poon did like Plasma and other stuff. So

1565
02:06:53,091 --> 02:06:57,811
it's just, we're all trapped by this mind virus. It's like the woke mind virus, except

1566
02:06:59,411 --> 02:07:00,371
Lightning instead of woke.

1567
02:07:01,251 --> 02:07:05,730
So this is this L2 thing. It's like, everyone's like, oh, L2, like they can't think of an L2

1568
02:07:05,730 --> 02:07:09,651
that's not Lightning, even though Lightning is not a good L2.

1569
02:07:11,251 --> 02:07:18,931
No, I agree with you now that DriveJ is not exactly the L2, that Layer 2 solution that we need.

1570
02:07:20,931 --> 02:07:25,251
Yeah, we seem to be down. Yeah, if you have more questions, I'd be happy to. We seem to be down to

1571
02:07:25,251 --> 02:07:27,170
only 18 though. So.

1572
02:07:27,570 --> 02:07:32,931
No, no, I'll take a rest. And we can have, we can ask other people to, you know, come up.

1573
02:07:35,730 --> 02:07:38,770
Yeah, come on up, other people. I see Moon Settler.

1574
02:07:41,170 --> 02:07:46,131
Moon Settler, come on up. CTV is a message of hope. We have not given up on scaling Bitcoin.

1575
02:07:48,050 --> 02:07:52,450
Remember this, when fees run insane high in the coming bull and the priests are telling you to

1576
02:07:53,170 --> 02:07:54,371
use custodial wallets.

1577
02:07:56,691 --> 02:08:01,411
See, so Moon Settler wisely said in a previous space that

1578
02:08:04,290 --> 02:08:09,651
people are always complaining about rushing things when in reality, things are basically

1579
02:08:09,651 --> 02:08:17,890
as far from being rushed as is possible. It's like just, it's just like unbelievable. And he's

1580
02:08:18,450 --> 02:08:22,211
just like unbelievable. And he's also saying, of course, he said like, well, it's a lot easier to

1581
02:08:22,211 --> 02:08:27,330
solve a problem when you've been working on it for a while and you have the solution ready

1582
02:08:27,330 --> 02:08:32,770
versus when there's some kind of emergency. That's when the, that's when the,

1583
02:08:35,330 --> 02:08:39,891
that's when the real attack will happen during the emergency that we didn't prepare for.

1584
02:08:41,571 --> 02:08:45,011
Anyway, Moon Settler doesn't seem to be coming up. So I guess he has

1585
02:08:45,970 --> 02:08:53,410
nothing to say in this space, but he is trying to get CTV activated as we discussed earlier.

1586
02:08:54,530 --> 02:09:01,571
And there is nothing wrong with CTV. It's perfectly safe. What's wrong is the soft fork process. It is

1587
02:09:03,891 --> 02:09:09,811
you know, Kafka-esque and absurd. And it's not, it's not in anyone's best interest, except for

1588
02:09:10,371 --> 02:09:15,970
a few people who are using it to virtue signal. And

1589
02:09:19,970 --> 02:09:24,691
so UAIA, I think he tried to come up here and was a speaker at some point,

1590
02:09:24,691 --> 02:09:29,410
but then I kept seeing it say connection, connecting, and he gets demoted again.

1591
02:09:31,011 --> 02:09:34,610
I don't know if he wanted to explain about the different carrots. I mean, I kind of understood

1592
02:09:35,571 --> 02:09:43,251
a little bit of a message that Bitcoin worked very well in the past, like a Merchant Popescu

1593
02:09:43,251 --> 02:09:48,371
type of a thing where it worked well in the past. And a lot of people are kind of

1594
02:09:51,331 --> 02:09:57,090
adding in new stuff and maybe diluting it to some extent and maybe, but maybe also increasing it

1595
02:09:57,090 --> 02:10:04,610
because, you know, 24 karat gold, I know one or two things about gold, just a little. And it's,

1596
02:10:04,610 --> 02:10:11,650
you know, it actually is, it's very, very easy to like bend or even, you know, if the gold is too

1597
02:10:11,650 --> 02:10:20,530
pure, that's not necessarily always the best thing. You can kind of like easily, it's like,

1598
02:10:20,530 --> 02:10:25,170
you know, it becomes like butter. But anyway, UAIA is here. So hello.

1599
02:10:36,290 --> 02:10:43,011
He's here, but he is muted. So, and he's connecting again. I don't know about you

1600
02:10:43,011 --> 02:10:47,571
guys, but I don't know. I have a new phone and everything and still this app just, you know,

1601
02:10:48,371 --> 02:10:51,491
I don't know. I seem to be really the only one who has these problems though.

1602
02:10:53,011 --> 02:10:58,931
I think it's UAIA side because everybody else is able to connect.

1603
02:11:00,691 --> 02:11:07,251
Now I see a double diversion of him. So I don't know. Maybe he will connect, maybe not.

1604
02:11:09,090 --> 02:11:12,850
So Paul, if you just give me a few seconds more, if someone else is not sure.

1605
02:11:13,410 --> 02:11:22,290
Sure. Sure. Sure. I feel the biggest resistance for drivechain is first of all, the enormous,

1606
02:11:22,931 --> 02:11:31,491
you know, size of it, of the change. I mean, it's, you know, people fear change all the time.

1607
02:11:31,491 --> 02:11:35,011
It's a philosophical change, but yeah, under the hood, it's really not a big, it's just

1608
02:11:36,131 --> 02:11:41,571
counting up to 13,000. If you actually read the BIPs themselves, you can kind of see that

1609
02:11:42,530 --> 02:11:50,530
what it's doing is really like, not that it's not like, it's just like a bunch of rules that

1610
02:11:50,530 --> 02:11:55,410
are just followed. And I don't know, but it is a big, it's a philosophical change because everyone

1611
02:11:55,410 --> 02:12:04,050
has been trained on thinking to compare Bitcoin versus Ethereum or Bitcoin versus Zcash. And then

1612
02:12:04,050 --> 02:12:11,730
we have all these, these post hoc rationalization, you know, nonsense that we say, well, we never

1613
02:12:11,730 --> 02:12:17,970
really wanted Zcash level privacy because we always wanted the, the most important thing is

1614
02:12:17,970 --> 02:12:24,691
to have the chain be auditable. And even on a sidechain that would, so it's like a bunch of

1615
02:12:25,970 --> 02:12:30,610
fakes. We never wanted Ethereum style, smart contracts. We never wanted Nick Szabo.

1616
02:12:31,090 --> 02:12:36,290
You know, we never wanted ring signatures. So we never wanted, we never wanted, it's all sour

1617
02:12:36,290 --> 02:12:40,530
grapes. You know, we never wanted to scale to 8 billion people. Bitcoin should only be for

1618
02:12:41,410 --> 02:12:47,090
the elite. And you're like, okay, is this a really a belief or is this just some story we invented?

1619
02:12:49,491 --> 02:12:57,650
You know, to, yeah. So, but that's the sense. That's the only sense in which it's a big change.

1620
02:12:57,650 --> 02:13:01,331
Under the hood, it's a very small change. It really is. It's just an opcode that'll unlock

1621
02:13:01,331 --> 02:13:08,451
some money if. As you said, it's a philosophical change and philosophical changes are much harder

1622
02:13:08,451 --> 02:13:14,771
to implement in a team or in a company rather than, you know, technically it's like you said,

1623
02:13:14,771 --> 02:13:24,050
it's not much of it, but philosophically it is. And it needs us someone who is very stubborn and

1624
02:13:24,050 --> 02:13:31,331
ruthless, you know, so I think that you are a correct person doing it at every platform.

1625
02:13:32,050 --> 02:13:36,451
And as the journey goes, more and more people will, you know, join you, try to learn this.

1626
02:13:37,251 --> 02:13:42,610
And from my experience, learning drivechain, reading about it through your blogs and videos

1627
02:13:42,610 --> 02:13:49,011
only. I mean, once you try to understand it, try to, you know, get away from the fear of

1628
02:13:49,811 --> 02:13:57,970
this philosophical change. It really makes sense. So, yeah, I'll rest. Thanks. Thanks.

1629
02:13:59,331 --> 02:14:03,970
Cool. Thanks. Well, anyone, if they want to come up, try to come up.

1630
02:14:04,530 --> 02:14:14,931
But if you don't come up, then we will end this space. So, going once, going twice.

1631
02:14:14,931 --> 02:14:19,650
It's a pretty good space today.

1632
02:14:23,090 --> 02:14:29,730
Was nice to hear Jamie say that he just completely and totally, he as a miner himself,

1633
02:14:29,730 --> 02:14:34,290
he completely and totally disagreed with everything that Peter Todd said. So,

1634
02:14:35,811 --> 02:14:39,011
that was good. Mark, we got a Mark that huddle here.

1635
02:14:39,011 --> 02:14:42,931
Hey, Paul, how you doing? Hey, we're listening to the conversation and I got a few questions.

1636
02:14:42,931 --> 02:14:48,530
Does your project in any way overlay with BitVM or Taproot or any of those technologies?

1637
02:14:51,410 --> 02:14:56,210
Well, that's an interesting question. I would say that Taproot is kind of a different thing.

1638
02:14:57,491 --> 02:15:06,290
BitVM, the creator, Robin Linus, has tweeted publicly that he kind of, one of the reasons

1639
02:15:06,290 --> 02:15:12,530
he created BitVM was because we could not get BIP300 quickly. So, he wanted like a workaround.

1640
02:15:12,691 --> 02:15:19,891
It's basically his way of achieving BIP300 without a soft fork, which I regard as kind of

1641
02:15:19,891 --> 02:15:24,210
silly because what does that really mean in practice? It's just the soft fork is just asking

1642
02:15:24,210 --> 02:15:32,610
51% of the miners to upgrade. But it's also asking Bitcoin Core to merge the code because it's like,

1643
02:15:32,610 --> 02:15:38,610
it's kind of an awkward thing to either ask miners to run a completely different piece of

1644
02:15:38,610 --> 02:15:44,610
software that's not Bitcoin Core. That's kind of a big ask. And it's also just to create an

1645
02:15:44,610 --> 02:15:49,970
alternative client that's also big. And it has to be totally compatible with all the things that

1646
02:15:49,970 --> 02:15:57,891
people expect Bitcoin Core to do. So, it's not that, certainly not easy, but I just, I find the

1647
02:15:57,891 --> 02:16:06,290
idea that we're going to do all these and logic gate thing. But yeah, so I think there is some

1648
02:16:06,290 --> 02:16:14,290
overlap in that sense. And I think also, yeah, okay. BitVM may have other problems such as

1649
02:16:15,170 --> 02:16:19,331
we had Super Testnet on the one after Thanksgiving and he compared the two.

1650
02:16:20,290 --> 02:16:22,290
And so, you could listen to that. Oh, yeah.

1651
02:16:24,691 --> 02:16:32,210
Were you on that? Should I, which? Yes, this is our thing on, I think if you go to layer2labs.com

1652
02:16:32,210 --> 02:16:38,290
and scroll down and find the spaces to be able to find it, it's a record space. And yeah, so

1653
02:16:39,571 --> 02:16:45,970
BitVM is very interesting, but it has a few disadvantages rather than BIP300.

1654
02:16:45,970 --> 02:16:49,730
Yeah, they're interesting projects. But can I also ask you another question?

1655
02:16:49,730 --> 02:16:52,530
They came up with an argument, I think it was Shinobi or somebody like that,

1656
02:16:52,530 --> 02:16:57,650
that the miner extracted value is going to be impossible to calculate under drivechain.

1657
02:16:57,650 --> 02:17:01,090
How would you, is that a true statement? Or would you say that?

1658
02:17:01,331 --> 02:17:06,131
No, I don't think that's true. I think that's just made up. I think Shinobi and there's a few people,

1659
02:17:06,131 --> 02:17:11,970
so like Peter is smart, Peter Todd. It's like Peter Todd, Alex B, Shinobi.

1660
02:17:13,411 --> 02:17:18,930
They are just, they refuse to like seriously engage with the idea and they have just,

1661
02:17:18,930 --> 02:17:22,930
they've hated it for years. And at this point, it would just be too humiliating for them to

1662
02:17:22,930 --> 02:17:28,690
change their mind. And I don't think they have any kind of rational basis for objecting the idea.

1663
02:17:29,330 --> 02:17:37,171
And I think they're kind of a lost cause. But to address the substance, the MEV,

1664
02:17:37,171 --> 02:17:44,690
what they're saying is that something like, I think, well, there really is no way to, because

1665
02:17:46,210 --> 02:17:50,610
let me sort of reset it for a second. Like the way blind merge mining works is it kind of

1666
02:17:50,610 --> 02:17:57,251
replaces the MEV with just an L1 transaction fee. So if there is MEV,

1667
02:17:58,690 --> 02:18:04,690
a sidechain, then it, that makes absolutely no difference. It's just layer one miners just

1668
02:18:04,690 --> 02:18:08,131
collect more money and they don't even see it because the whole blind merge mining part,

1669
02:18:08,131 --> 02:18:13,411
you can imagine a really bizarre scenario in which you get some kind of premium where this

1670
02:18:13,411 --> 02:18:19,171
enormous amount of stuff is happening across different chains. This is like, basically,

1671
02:18:20,371 --> 02:18:26,051
you know, this is very silly, but theoretically possible. And in that case, you need to run all

1672
02:18:26,051 --> 02:18:32,850
the different nodes in order to extract the most value. But after you do that, you will still

1673
02:18:33,651 --> 02:18:37,970
blind merge mine them all, which is the way of getting the most money. And so then the miners

1674
02:18:37,970 --> 02:18:42,371
will still not need to see it at all. So there is no MEV with drivechain. There is no MEV problem.

1675
02:18:42,371 --> 02:18:50,051
And the only people, Alex B wasted everyone's time with this for like two different spaces in a row

1676
02:18:50,051 --> 02:18:55,330
that he, both of which he later deleted, where he brought this issue up and then he just blah,

1677
02:18:55,330 --> 02:19:00,930
blah, blah for a long time. And what he ended up saying, he ended up saying that MEV is equal

1678
02:19:00,930 --> 02:19:06,371
to L1 fees going up. So that's how he ended up defining MEV. And the whole thing was a big waste

1679
02:19:06,371 --> 02:19:13,970
of everyone's time, especially mine. And, but so I just, I don't know if people can, uh, uh, I,

1680
02:19:13,970 --> 02:19:18,450
and I put down, I saw many times I told him just, why don't you write down an actual example with

1681
02:19:18,450 --> 02:19:23,651
numbers? And then he said that he would, and he never did that. And I could keep asking him and

1682
02:19:23,651 --> 02:19:27,411
then he just doesn't do it. So the whole thing is a, is a troll and just a waste of everyone's

1683
02:19:27,411 --> 02:19:33,730
time. But why don't you ask you, you can ask anyone who, who wants to raise that issue,

1684
02:19:33,730 --> 02:19:38,850
ask them to write, write it down on a piece of paper with the actual numbers and we'll see the

1685
02:19:38,850 --> 02:19:45,491
MEV. And plenty of people have actually messaged me to say two people messaged me to say, and then

1686
02:19:45,491 --> 02:19:52,131
one of the two people messaged Fiatjaf to say, he told me so through the grapevine, I've got four,

1687
02:19:53,011 --> 02:19:58,131
four people said that they originally agreed with Alex B and then they were so confident that they

1688
02:19:58,131 --> 02:20:03,330
set out to write down the example themselves. And when they wrote down the example, they saw that

1689
02:20:03,330 --> 02:20:05,891
in fact, uh, I was right. And.

1690
02:20:06,113 --> 02:20:19,113
They were completely wrong. So then they were, they kind of flipped. So anyone who actually undertakes this task will see, um, you know, that it's, it's not real.

1691
02:20:19,113 --> 02:20:35,113
I believe you. And I like what you said about lightning and being kind of a mind virus there. I do believe there are still technologies yet to be developed in Bitcoin and your technology along with BPM, I think are the leaders of this, um, technology in the domain. And I'm here to help you guys. Thank you.

1692
02:20:36,113 --> 02:20:37,113
Is it working now?

1693
02:20:37,113 --> 02:20:38,113
Cool.

1694
02:20:38,113 --> 02:20:40,113
Yeah. So we hear you UAIA. Here you are.

1695
02:20:40,113 --> 02:20:41,113
You made it.

1696
02:20:41,113 --> 02:20:55,113
Finally. Okay. It's good for me just to, to know that it's working. I'll get to a point as soon as I hear it. Just continue.

1697
02:20:55,113 --> 02:21:10,113
Yeah, sure. Or maybe didn't you say something about the different carrot gold, like the, um, pay to pub key hash versus being diluted lightning zero. Okay. Didn't Jamie say that you had said that, or was that someone else?

1698
02:21:10,113 --> 02:21:39,113
Yeah, I said that it's, uh, it's an old fault of mine. Anyway, it seems quite weird for me to, to hear you guys talking about money. So what exactly is money? My definition of money? I mean, in my language, I have two, two different words. We have money and we have currency and there's a big, a huge difference about that.

1699
02:21:39,113 --> 02:21:57,113
So when it comes to money, the money is that financial asset that you pass it to the future generation and understand that Bitcoin is it's, it's a new type of money. It's just the money of the current times.

1700
02:21:57,113 --> 02:22:19,113
So going back to the, to the association of, of gold and Bitcoin having different purities and having the, the pure Bitcoin that is, uh, that's on the, um, how do you call it?

1701
02:22:19,113 --> 02:22:47,113
I think that the Bitcoin purity is just how you hold it. You hold it in the legacy uncompressed addresses. That's the pure Bitcoin. Uh, you have the first of April, 2012, uh, the beta script that's less pure Bitcoin. You have the SegWit in 2017, that's 12 carats Bitcoin, 12 carats gold.

1702
02:22:47,113 --> 02:23:07,113
So it's not a problem for people to wear their necklace and earrings or whatever they want and having a less pure Bitcoin. That's it. Not sure if you, if you get it or if it makes sense. Okay.

1703
02:23:08,113 --> 02:23:32,113
Sure. I mean, money, how do you define it? Uh, I think the, to me, the difference between money and currency is a little bit overblown. Like I've heard this, the speech before, and I think there's something to it, but I think what normally this is coming from people who like want to push.

1704
02:23:32,113 --> 02:23:49,113
It's coming from like a libertarian critique of like gold is money and paper notes are just currency. And, uh, I don't know. I don't know if I really, I mean, I, I certainly believe a lot of libertarian economics, but I certainly, I don't know if I really go for this one. Like, does it really mean anything?

1705
02:23:49,113 --> 02:24:11,113
Um, I think that money is the method of payment. This is what I think. So I actually think if you go up to a, a washing machine, like the laundromat machine, and it only takes quarters and you only, you don't have any quarters, you only have bills, then you actually, you have no money and you have no, you have no ability to persuade the washing machine to say that.

1706
02:24:11,113 --> 02:24:36,113
Those are the, the specific of currency because you need to be a medium of exchange to be portable, visible, fungible, but anything can be used as money. If it has the, how do you call it? To, to keep value over time.

1707
02:24:37,113 --> 02:24:44,113
So the USD euro doesn't keep value over time. So that's the idea. That's the difference between.

1708
02:24:45,113 --> 02:24:59,113
But don't you say that the euro, most people would say, not necessarily meaning that what most people say as it goes, but most people would say that both the US dollar and the euro are both money. That's what most people see the question of what, what does the word mean?

1709
02:24:59,113 --> 02:25:15,113
It has two different directions you can go, which is one, as you can say, you can try to drill down to the essence of it. You know, like what, what is love? You know, what is justice? Which is sort of what we try to do here, I think.

1710
02:25:16,113 --> 02:25:36,113
But it's also, in a sense, money, the word is, what does the word mean? It's like, what do, what does it mean when they say that? Like when they say, you know, like in Spanish, they say, you could say me, my name is, but they say, they call me, you know, they call me.

1711
02:25:37,113 --> 02:25:45,113
But it's like, what does it mean? And if, you know, like, that's Amore, the song in Italian, like, what does it mean when they say it? It's like,

1712
02:25:46,113 --> 02:26:03,113
It doesn't make sense to care about what people think. We are having a discussion right now. If people don't get a difference between money and currency, people don't get a difference between using legacy addresses and using a lighting network. It's their problem.

1713
02:26:04,113 --> 02:26:05,113
I agree.

1714
02:26:05,113 --> 02:26:16,113
But I think we, in that play, in that situation, we might as well just, since it doesn't matter, like a definition can never really be wrong. It can only be inconsistent. So you might as well just carve out a new word.

1715
02:26:17,113 --> 02:26:37,113
If you say most people think that the euro is money, because what people seem to be wanting to do is what they seem to want is to do something like this, where they say, this is Bitcoin money. Oh, yes. And then once it achieves this, this, this threshold, then it switches from not being money.

1716
02:26:38,113 --> 02:27:01,113
Like maybe we have something where we don't want EOS or FTT. We don't want like shares of FTX or something. The point of defining the word is to sort the money things from the non money things. So it's kind of seems like what people are trying to do is they want to set up the game so that Bitcoin crosses the line, but a lot of other stuff does not cross the line.

1717
02:27:02,113 --> 02:27:18,113
And that's fine by me, but I'm just saying what they seem to then want to do is to tell the world, to tell the people who think that the euro is money. Listen, Bitcoin is also money because of such and such. And I just don't know if that – are we really getting anywhere if we do that? I'm not sure.

1718
02:27:18,113 --> 02:27:41,113
I'd agree with you. You have a life expectancy of 24 Bitcoin, of 2.4 billion seconds. You get no advantages talking about other people. You get no advantages worrying about other people not getting the drivechain or whatever payment system you try to invent.

1719
02:27:42,113 --> 02:28:03,113
For me, it makes no sense. We have payment systems. We have currencies. But when it comes to money, there was gold, maybe silver or maybe real estate. Otherwise, why would you spend your precious time worrying about other people?

1720
02:28:04,113 --> 02:28:18,113
Well, you're the one who asked about the definition. I think there's a lot of reasons to care about what other people think. And one of them is because there's only a limited amount of thinking that we can do by ourselves, and especially if you wanted to do the cutting edge.

1721
02:28:18,113 --> 02:28:38,113
Certainly, I think that participating in Bitcoin has been very interesting and has made me a lot of money. So I think I've gotten a lot out of it. I wouldn't really say it was wasted. The way other things, maybe with hindsight, I could regret spending time on this or that. I'd say this is a better thing to spend time on.

1722
02:28:38,113 --> 02:28:59,113
So how come that 15 years after Bitcoin was launched, you care about building a payment system and not raising awareness about Bitcoin? Nobody does that. Or maybe there are people trying to raise awareness about Bitcoin.

1723
02:29:00,113 --> 02:29:13,113
But I'd say that most of you, you're looking to make more money. At the end of the day, it's just your wallet and having more seconds in it, more satoshis in it.

1724
02:29:13,113 --> 02:29:39,113
Well, I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're asking. Why try to get people excited about... I mean, I would be a user of many of the sidechains. I would want to use the Zcash sidechain for privacy. I would want to use the payment sidechain.

1725
02:29:39,113 --> 02:29:53,113
And I feel dishonest shilling Bitcoin to people when it cannot scale to meet the whole world's demand, because that makes it vulnerable to replacement and going to zero.

1726
02:29:54,113 --> 02:30:01,113
You said earlier that it's not necessary for 8 billion people to own Bitcoin.

1727
02:30:02,113 --> 02:30:05,113
To own L1, but they would own Bitcoin on L2.

1728
02:30:06,113 --> 02:30:24,113
Do you think that just Bitcoin existing will reshape the world? Not even that most of the people are willing to use it. Just having a better form of money will affect what's going on on this planet?

1729
02:30:25,113 --> 02:30:28,113
It already has. Certainly, yes. It already has.

1730
02:30:31,113 --> 02:30:44,113
But I mean, you could say the same thing about the internet. You could say just having the internet, we have like dial-up internet, and we have internet from 1993 or earlier. We have Usenet.

1731
02:30:44,113 --> 02:31:05,113
Hasn't Usenet already changed the world? And sure, of course, the answer is obviously yes. That's not the point. The point is where all of us are missing out on the things that would later be invented, such as YouTube gives people the ability to learn anything they want to learn almost for free.

1732
02:31:06,113 --> 02:31:26,113
And then, of course, Bitcoin could not have been invented if computer technology, internet technology had stayed where it was. So we want better technology, and that includes even more ossified Bitcoin L1 that is not disturbed by altcoins or hard fork campaigns.

1733
02:31:27,113 --> 02:31:46,113
So I don't really see how it follows that just because Bitcoin is a good idea, then there's not lots more room at the top to make it much better. In fact, it's already so defective an idea that if the right amount of replacement ideas is combined, it will probably be replaced.

1734
02:31:47,113 --> 02:31:53,113
And then the project will fail, and it will go to zero. So we don't want that to happen.

1735
02:31:53,113 --> 02:32:08,113
I'd say that you get more advantages from raising awareness of Bitcoin, a new type of money, instead of trying to build the payment networks on top of Bitcoin.

1736
02:32:08,113 --> 02:32:24,113
We already have exceptional payment networks. Just trying to implement a new payment system to your local grocery stores, it's not efficient.

1737
02:32:25,113 --> 02:32:28,113
Yeah, but that's not what I'm trying to do.

1738
02:32:29,113 --> 02:32:36,113
What you are trying to do? You're trying to move shitcoins on the main chain or link shitcoins?

1739
02:32:36,113 --> 02:32:37,113
No, of course not.

1740
02:32:38,113 --> 02:32:39,113
Then what's drivechain?

1741
02:32:40,113 --> 02:32:50,113
Maybe you should research that a little before making all these weird assumptions and coming here and asking these bizarre questions.

1742
02:32:51,113 --> 02:33:01,113
Drivechain is a different L2. It's like a version of... I don't know what you already understand, so I'm not sure how to phrase it to you.

1743
02:33:02,113 --> 02:33:10,113
You're the author of drivechain. I don't need to read the book if I am able to speak right now with you.

1744
02:33:11,113 --> 02:33:20,113
Well, it allows you to send Bitcoin to a different piece of software and back. So that software could be its own blockchain.

1745
02:33:21,113 --> 02:33:30,113
This allows us to, for example, send it to Zcash-style blockchain where there is no Zcash altcoin on it at all, but it's the same software.

1746
02:33:30,113 --> 02:33:38,113
It's the same Zk-SNARK software. So you get a reusable Z address and the sender and the receiver and the amount are all private.

1747
02:33:39,113 --> 02:33:42,113
And just by sending to a...

1748
02:33:43,113 --> 02:33:44,113
How does it improve my life?

1749
02:33:45,113 --> 02:33:55,113
Well, do you... I mean, I don't know. Maybe it doesn't for you in particular, but for probably 8 billion people, I think it probably would.

1750
02:33:55,113 --> 02:34:03,113
How? I don't see how it will improve 8 billion people, their lives.

1751
02:34:04,113 --> 02:34:09,113
Okay, well, what about the privacy? Do you think privacy is important on Bitcoin or no?

1752
02:34:10,113 --> 02:34:23,113
You talk about transparency or the opacity of transactions, because it's a huge difference. For me, it doesn't make sense to use different addresses.

1753
02:34:24,113 --> 02:34:32,113
At the end of the day, you won't be able to seize my Bitcoin, whatever, if you know that I own those coins or not.

1754
02:34:33,113 --> 02:34:44,113
If they put you in jail and say, we will not let you out of jail until you send us these coins that we know that you own, that wouldn't be enough?

1755
02:34:45,113 --> 02:34:56,113
If they put me in jail, it's all good. I have Bitcoin in my mind. You can just give me some drugs and probably you won't be able to extract those coins from my brain.

1756
02:34:57,113 --> 02:35:14,113
I know, but wouldn't that be... you're saying the privacy sort of doesn't matter because... but I'm telling you that for many people, it does matter. And this is an exact scenario where...

1757
02:35:15,113 --> 02:35:25,113
You're wrong. For most people, it doesn't matter. They hold their value in their bank accounts. Their bank accounts can be seized any moment.

1758
02:35:26,113 --> 02:35:33,113
When it comes to Bitcoin, yeah, you can take an individual, put it in jail and force it to give you the private key.

1759
02:35:34,113 --> 02:35:44,113
Well, if you think that privacy is not important for Bitcoin, then I don't know, maybe it doesn't... maybe this project doesn't help you.

1760
02:35:50,113 --> 02:35:57,113
At the end of the day, I'd prefer to have money, no matter if you know that I own those coins or not.

1761
02:35:58,113 --> 02:36:10,113
Yeah. Do you think that money has network effects? So people prefer to use the money that most other people around them are using or no?

1762
02:36:11,113 --> 02:36:19,113
Not sure. No, they don't because they use different currencies.

1763
02:36:20,113 --> 02:36:27,113
Like when you go to Japan, like it's just a weird coincidence that everyone there is... all the people are all using yen at the same time and place.

1764
02:36:28,113 --> 02:36:37,113
It just clumps up at different times and places. Like in a region of space-time, everyone is like using the same money. But that's just like some weird coincidence.

1765
02:36:38,113 --> 02:36:51,113
I can use my Bitcoin in Japan. I can use... I buy things with Bitcoin even right now. All my purchases are Bitcoin.

1766
02:36:51,113 --> 02:37:07,113
Great. But that's not what I asked. Do you think money has network effects? Like why is it Bitcoin and not Feathercoin or like something even more obscure than that?

1767
02:37:08,113 --> 02:37:23,113
I understand that Bitcoin is not made to be spent. Bitcoin is a store of value. It's something that you're not able to find in any other forms of money right now in the current time.

1768
02:37:24,113 --> 02:37:33,113
But why does something, whether or not something is a store of value, that's completely unrelated to whether or not it's a medium of exchange?

1769
02:37:34,113 --> 02:37:43,113
It can be a good store of value and a bad medium of exchange or it can be a good store of value and a good medium of exchange or vice versa or whatever. So what difference does it make?

1770
02:37:44,113 --> 02:37:47,113
You're just like avoiding all these very clear questions that I'm trying to help you out here.

1771
02:37:48,113 --> 02:37:49,113
I don't get what...

1772
02:37:50,113 --> 02:37:58,113
Does money have network effects? I told you what it means. That people prefer to use the money that people around them are using. It's the same like language.

1773
02:37:58,113 --> 02:38:04,113
They all speak Japanese in Japan also, by the way. And they don't like to speak random languages.

1774
02:38:05,113 --> 02:38:20,113
You asked me to tell you my opinion about what other peoples are thinking. I'm not able to do that. I can tell you what I understand, not about other people. If you want to find the answer, just ask them.

1775
02:38:21,113 --> 02:38:26,113
Well, I mean, I don't plan on going to all the people in Japan and asking them.

1776
02:38:27,113 --> 02:38:35,113
To me, other people are not a complete black box. You know, there's plenty of things that all people want.

1777
02:38:36,113 --> 02:38:41,113
Because it's a pretty normal thing to want. Like they all want enough food and enough...

1778
02:38:42,113 --> 02:38:47,113
Okay, well, whatever. I don't know. Listen, you seem like you've got everything figured out. So good for you.

1779
02:38:47,113 --> 02:38:52,113
But nothing that you've just evaded all these simple questions like privacy is good.

1780
02:38:53,113 --> 02:39:00,113
Having more people be able to transact via cryptography and not via a custodian.

1781
02:39:01,113 --> 02:39:10,113
That is good. More mining revenue is good. The ability to ossify L1 and move software development to L2s.

1782
02:39:11,113 --> 02:39:18,113
That is good. That is what this project does. So you should look into it.

1783
02:39:19,113 --> 02:39:32,113
And also, all these monies compete. So if people become too complacent, the project will suffer. And if it suffers enough, it will just be replaced.

1784
02:39:33,113 --> 02:39:37,113
There's only enough room for one money at the end, in the endgame.

1785
02:39:38,113 --> 02:39:48,113
There is one single money right now. One single type of money right now that is efficient. It was gold before. Now it's Bitcoin.

1786
02:39:49,113 --> 02:39:59,113
I see that you focus a lot on the payment systems. You can use Bitcoin on top of Visa.

1787
02:40:00,113 --> 02:40:06,113
As Coinbase does. I send Coinbase my Bitcoin and they give me the opportunity.

1788
02:40:07,113 --> 02:40:11,113
But don't you understand that this is how gold works?

1789
02:40:11,565 --> 02:40:14,845
Gold has lost its place because it's not as good as Bitcoin.

1790
02:40:14,845 --> 02:40:17,365
What's the difference between you think that the reason why

1791
02:40:18,405 --> 02:40:20,645
you think that the reason why Bitcoin is going to replace gold

1792
02:40:20,645 --> 02:40:23,485
is because it is a better store of value?

1793
02:40:24,765 --> 02:40:29,525
You can check the numbers and you can find these out right now.

1794
02:40:29,525 --> 02:40:32,565
I'm not saying that. I know that it is a better store of value.

1795
02:40:32,565 --> 02:40:35,124
But are you saying that Bitcoin is going to replace gold

1796
02:40:35,124 --> 02:40:39,085
because it is a better store of value and not because it's also possible

1797
02:40:39,085 --> 02:40:41,645
to transact it directly? I haven't said that.

1798
02:40:42,884 --> 02:40:46,004
I'm asking you, though, ask it again.

1799
02:40:48,364 --> 02:40:51,725
Why is Bitcoin going to replace gold?

1800
02:40:51,844 --> 02:40:53,565
Because he's a better store of value.

1801
02:40:55,445 --> 02:40:57,645
But for no other reason.

1802
02:40:57,645 --> 02:40:59,204
That's the definition of money.

1803
02:40:59,204 --> 02:41:01,524
This makes the difference. For no other reason.

1804
02:41:01,884 --> 02:41:03,565
Yes. Just you can just say yes or no.

1805
02:41:03,565 --> 02:41:05,364
You don't have to evade every question.

1806
02:41:05,364 --> 02:41:07,524
Yeah, no.

1807
02:41:07,884 --> 02:41:10,125
That's it. It's a better store of value.

1808
02:41:11,004 --> 02:41:13,004
So that's the only criterion.

1809
02:41:13,004 --> 02:41:16,405
So if we if we created a fork of Bitcoin

1810
02:41:17,084 --> 02:41:19,685
that where the money supply shrunk.

1811
02:41:20,685 --> 02:41:23,884
Every year, because a certain percentage of the transaction

1812
02:41:23,884 --> 02:41:26,804
fees are just destroyed, according to you,

1813
02:41:27,484 --> 02:41:31,325
that would with absolute certainty that would replace Bitcoin.

1814
02:41:32,524 --> 02:41:33,844
I mean, it would be a better store of value.

1815
02:41:33,844 --> 02:41:38,605
You can say if you if you talk about the amount of Bitcoin

1816
02:41:38,605 --> 02:41:42,124
just to be doubled, you can say the same thing about gold.

1817
02:41:42,285 --> 02:41:45,645
Go to the moon, extract some gold and bring it back.

1818
02:41:46,645 --> 02:41:50,084
That's the idea of money.

1819
02:41:50,084 --> 02:41:53,844
It's scarce. I'm not interested in what is.

1820
02:41:53,884 --> 02:41:57,245
Is it the case that we can make a different version of Bitcoin?

1821
02:41:57,245 --> 02:41:57,844
We'll call it.

1822
02:41:59,645 --> 02:42:03,605
Call it whatever you you coin you a coin.

1823
02:42:04,844 --> 02:42:09,605
And it is the same as Bitcoin, but it's a better store of value

1824
02:42:09,605 --> 02:42:12,245
because it's the money supply actually shrinks every year

1825
02:42:12,245 --> 02:42:15,124
because a certain some 10 percent of what's collected in transaction

1826
02:42:15,124 --> 02:42:16,965
fees is destroyed.

1827
02:42:17,524 --> 02:42:20,644
According to you, this is the only criterion that makes any difference at all.

1828
02:42:21,205 --> 02:42:24,045
So it doesn't matter about recognizability or.

1829
02:42:25,765 --> 02:42:28,884
You know, anything like that, network effects don't matter.

1830
02:42:29,245 --> 02:42:32,444
So you're saying that it's certain that Bitcoin will be replaced by that

1831
02:42:32,485 --> 02:42:34,485
and Bitcoin will just go the way of gold.

1832
02:42:34,485 --> 02:42:37,045
I understand that it won't be replaced.

1833
02:42:37,325 --> 02:42:40,084
This is it. This is all. Why not?

1834
02:42:40,084 --> 02:42:41,924
Because why not? Is this a better store of value?

1835
02:42:44,644 --> 02:42:45,724
Give me an example.

1836
02:42:45,724 --> 02:42:47,084
You said there's no value.

1837
02:42:47,084 --> 02:42:50,284
You said I just gave you a direct example.

1838
02:42:54,125 --> 02:42:55,724
I don't get it.

1839
02:42:56,364 --> 02:42:59,164
Yes, you do not get it. I agree.

1840
02:42:59,164 --> 02:43:00,765
All right. Well, maybe you can get it later.

1841
02:43:00,765 --> 02:43:04,364
So now we have home home slash Paco is here.

1842
02:43:05,364 --> 02:43:07,125
Great. Hello.

1843
02:43:09,325 --> 02:43:11,605
Yeah, I have my friend that I can call.

1844
02:43:11,605 --> 02:43:14,004
That's so much.

1845
02:43:14,325 --> 02:43:18,205
It was kind of difficult to hear you a little bit, but it's not impossible.

1846
02:43:18,205 --> 02:43:20,965
But. Try to repeat what you said.

1847
02:43:21,205 --> 02:43:23,364
Now, listen carefully.

1848
02:43:25,284 --> 02:43:25,685
OK.

1849
02:43:26,004 --> 02:43:27,485
You hear me?

1850
02:43:29,685 --> 02:43:31,205
You hear me?

1851
02:43:31,205 --> 02:43:33,724
OK, it's not great, but you're going to hear it.

1852
02:43:36,084 --> 02:43:38,884
I do have a comment and a question.

1853
02:43:40,125 --> 02:43:42,125
So what's right now?

1854
02:43:42,125 --> 02:43:44,884
So if you could read it, it's actually for that guy.

1855
02:43:49,605 --> 02:43:51,524
I don't I really did not hear that very well.

1856
02:43:51,724 --> 02:43:59,045
But maybe he will find a quieter room or I don't know.

1857
02:44:01,845 --> 02:44:03,845
OK, well.

1858
02:44:04,845 --> 02:44:06,364
Anyone else?

1859
02:44:07,765 --> 02:44:12,004
What advantages you get from developing drivechains?

1860
02:44:15,125 --> 02:44:19,924
It doesn't matter to you, it doesn't matter, because you think that all this is going to be

1861
02:44:19,924 --> 02:44:24,724
replaced when a new cryptocurrency comes out, but that has slightly smaller supply.

1862
02:44:25,724 --> 02:44:27,764
I don't say it's a new.

1863
02:44:28,405 --> 02:44:30,005
Sorry. You hear me?

1864
02:44:30,005 --> 02:44:31,845
Yes, we can hear you now.

1865
02:44:31,845 --> 02:44:33,685
Yeah, it's a little quieter now.

1866
02:44:33,685 --> 02:44:36,885
I was only telling you, asking you if you could read the comments.

1867
02:44:36,885 --> 02:44:39,924
I had a comment asking something to that guy.

1868
02:44:40,725 --> 02:44:42,725
So I cannot talk too much right now.

1869
02:44:45,324 --> 02:44:47,725
OK, I'm going to read them now.

1870
02:44:47,725 --> 02:44:52,725
It's kind of weird, my app is really buggy enough as it is, I don't know why.

1871
02:44:54,725 --> 02:44:55,725
But I'm going to try to find him.

1872
02:44:55,725 --> 02:44:56,725
Here we go.

1873
02:44:57,725 --> 02:44:59,725
Comments, comments, comments.

1874
02:45:00,725 --> 02:45:01,725
I don't know.

1875
02:45:03,725 --> 02:45:04,725
Check the comments.

1876
02:45:04,725 --> 02:45:05,725
I'm trying.

1877
02:45:06,725 --> 02:45:08,725
I found a comment that says check the comments.

1878
02:45:08,725 --> 02:45:09,725
I don't know.

1879
02:45:09,725 --> 02:45:11,725
For some reason that I can't go through.

1880
02:45:12,725 --> 02:45:13,725
Doesn't really.

1881
02:45:17,725 --> 02:45:19,725
Why not, Cordell?

1882
02:45:20,725 --> 02:45:25,725
To the people who say drivechains bring shit coins to Bitcoin, why do L2s get a free pass on that?

1883
02:45:25,725 --> 02:45:27,725
Why does liquid get a pass to?

1884
02:45:27,725 --> 02:45:30,725
Yeah, this is this is an important comment.

1885
02:45:31,725 --> 02:45:38,725
I will expand on this, which is to say that there is zero sense.

1886
02:45:38,725 --> 02:45:44,725
That there is zero sense whatsoever that that drivechain brings shit coins to Bitcoin.

1887
02:45:44,725 --> 02:45:49,725
It's already possible through things like ordinals or counterparty or colored coins.

1888
02:45:50,725 --> 02:45:53,725
It's already possible to bring new coins.

1889
02:45:55,725 --> 02:46:02,725
New tokens, new shit coins to every chain, which includes the L1 chain and every sidechain.

1890
02:46:03,725 --> 02:46:07,725
And all of that has been possible since 2014 or whatever.

1891
02:46:09,725 --> 02:46:11,725
So I don't know what.

1892
02:46:13,725 --> 02:46:14,725
This is just the thing.

1893
02:46:14,725 --> 02:46:20,725
You can see how bad the critique is, though, that it's something that's completely and totally false.

1894
02:46:21,725 --> 02:46:23,725
Not a shred of truth to it at all.

1895
02:46:24,725 --> 02:46:28,725
But this is something people will repeat to each other on Twitter.

1896
02:46:28,725 --> 02:46:34,725
And that's, of course, what this drivechain is really about is deleting all the shit coins

1897
02:46:34,725 --> 02:46:40,725
because you make a new chain that has no shit going on it, but it only has Bitcoin on it.

1898
02:46:40,725 --> 02:46:46,725
So this is just a weird thing that it's just an example of this psychosis and, you know,

1899
02:46:46,725 --> 02:46:51,725
and how unreasonable people are and just further evidence of why they should really just be ignored.

1900
02:46:52,725 --> 02:46:54,725
But I don't know if there's any.

1901
02:46:57,725 --> 02:47:00,725
Anyone would like to come up or come back up?

1902
02:47:11,725 --> 02:47:12,725
What's the problem?

1903
02:47:12,725 --> 02:47:17,725
What are the issues that you're not able to put to drivechain online?

1904
02:47:19,725 --> 02:47:20,725
Make it possible.

1905
02:47:22,725 --> 02:47:25,725
Drivechain is a soft fork.

1906
02:47:25,725 --> 02:47:35,725
And so historically in Bitcoin, you kind of talk about those before you circulate them from the blockchain.

1907
02:47:35,725 --> 02:47:40,725
Historically in Bitcoin, you kind of talk about those before.

1908
02:47:41,725 --> 02:47:45,725
You circulate them for like peer review, although I don't even know if this is, you know,

1909
02:47:45,725 --> 02:47:51,725
this would be how it's described after the SegWit Taproot era.

1910
02:47:51,725 --> 02:47:55,725
Peter Todd said it quite interesting.

1911
02:47:55,725 --> 02:48:08,725
When you are not able to block a technology, you win by modifying the implementation of it.

1912
02:48:12,725 --> 02:48:13,725
If I'm not wrong.

1913
02:48:14,725 --> 02:48:15,725
What do you mean by that?

1914
02:48:21,725 --> 02:48:26,725
Oh, you think that this is going to block Bitcoin somehow?

1915
02:48:26,725 --> 02:48:29,725
No, I'd say drivechain.

1916
02:48:29,725 --> 02:48:37,725
I'd say drivechain is just a way to raise people's attention about what happened in Bitcoin before.

1917
02:48:38,725 --> 02:48:44,724
And I talk about what happened on the 1st of April 2012.

1918
02:48:45,724 --> 02:48:48,724
When Gavin introduced pay to script.

1919
02:48:50,724 --> 02:48:51,724
Yes.

1920
02:48:51,724 --> 02:48:54,724
So what is your point about that?

1921
02:48:55,724 --> 02:49:04,724
My point is that giving up an opportunity, changing the protocol, changing the way Bitcoin works.

1922
02:49:05,724 --> 02:49:09,724
It makes less efficient for people to understand it.

1923
02:49:12,724 --> 02:49:13,724
I agree with that.

1924
02:49:13,724 --> 02:49:18,724
I find it very annoying that people that we push so many complicated changes into Bitcoin.

1925
02:49:19,724 --> 02:49:22,724
And I think that it's no good.

1926
02:49:22,724 --> 02:49:30,724
People don't run a node, but also it doesn't make any difference because the nodes don't really explain to like a human what they're doing.

1927
02:49:30,724 --> 02:49:33,724
And so the node is a black box anyway.

1928
02:49:33,724 --> 02:49:36,724
And I don't I don't see what the point of that is.

1929
02:49:36,724 --> 02:49:40,724
So I I'm pro simple L1.

1930
02:49:42,724 --> 02:49:43,724
I'm in favor of that.

1931
02:49:43,724 --> 02:49:44,724
I'm in favor of that.

1932
02:49:47,724 --> 02:49:48,724
What makes you.

1933
02:49:48,724 --> 02:49:50,724
I don't think pay to script hash.

1934
02:49:50,724 --> 02:49:52,724
I don't think pay to script hash is that confusing.

1935
02:49:52,724 --> 02:49:54,724
Pay to script hash just says that.

1936
02:49:55,724 --> 02:49:57,724
You will hash the.

1937
02:49:57,724 --> 02:50:04,724
The person is going to provide a script when they want to spend the money and then you hash that instead of hashing it before.

1938
02:50:04,724 --> 02:50:07,724
Instead of hashing it preemptively, you hash it when you spend it.

1939
02:50:08,724 --> 02:50:09,724
So that's not really that.

1940
02:50:09,724 --> 02:50:10,724
That's not really that.

1941
02:50:11,724 --> 02:50:12,724
That's not that mystifying.

1942
02:50:12,724 --> 02:50:21,724
It's a possibility that is a possibility for miners just to fork and get back to the Bitcoin version before pay to script.

1943
02:50:25,724 --> 02:50:29,724
Well, it's theoretically possible, but in practice, it's not really possible because.

1944
02:50:31,724 --> 02:50:32,724
But it's theoretically possible.

1945
02:50:32,724 --> 02:50:33,724
But why would you want to do that?

1946
02:50:33,724 --> 02:50:43,724
I mean, do you actually do you actually dislike pay to script hash or do you just dislike the idea that something has happened to L1?

1947
02:50:43,724 --> 02:50:49,724
I'd say that something happened to L1 in 2012 when pay to script was introduced.

1948
02:50:51,724 --> 02:50:55,724
Yes, but what is what what do you dislike about pay to script hash?

1949
02:50:55,724 --> 02:51:01,724
Doesn't give me an opportunity to to be my own bank to to.

1950
02:51:04,724 --> 02:51:09,724
Just just give me having it gives me the opportunity to use multisig.

1951
02:51:10,724 --> 02:51:12,724
Doesn't make sense for me to use multisig.

1952
02:51:14,724 --> 02:51:22,724
I know, but do you personally think that like if someone is going to share if someone if Elon Musk is going to ship a car,

1953
02:51:22,724 --> 02:51:32,724
to someone else, you personally have to use the the radio and windshield wiper, cleaner fluid lever and stuff.

1954
02:51:32,724 --> 02:51:35,724
It's like, what about what other people want?

1955
02:51:36,724 --> 02:51:39,724
Again, I'm not able to read other people's minds.

1956
02:51:41,724 --> 02:51:42,724
But I'm not asking you to do that.

1957
02:51:42,724 --> 02:51:45,724
I'm just saying, is it good for.

1958
02:51:46,724 --> 02:51:48,724
Like, why do you think that I am talking about that?

1959
02:51:48,724 --> 02:51:50,724
Because what I'm just talking about is.

1960
02:51:51,724 --> 02:51:56,724
Providing a feature like an option for other people to use.

1961
02:51:56,724 --> 02:52:05,724
I'd say that you just try to raise people's attention, just raise their attention about what happened with Bitcoin.

1962
02:52:05,724 --> 02:52:08,724
Yeah, but that is caring about what's in other people's minds.

1963
02:52:08,724 --> 02:52:12,724
It is the most efficient way I've seen it in this space.

1964
02:52:13,724 --> 02:52:14,724
I can agree with that.

1965
02:52:18,724 --> 02:52:21,724
You're not a big, you're not a big blocker.

1966
02:52:24,724 --> 02:52:25,724
My.

1967
02:52:26,724 --> 02:52:27,724
I'm wrong.

1968
02:52:30,724 --> 02:52:34,724
I don't know what you're saying at this point, but I'm not a big blocker.

1969
02:52:36,724 --> 02:52:40,724
Didn't I just say earlier in the space that I consistently for a smaller box.

1970
02:52:44,724 --> 02:52:45,724
I'm not a big blocker.

1971
02:52:47,724 --> 02:52:48,724
I'm not a big blocker.

1972
02:52:48,724 --> 02:52:51,724
Didn't I just say earlier in the space that I consistently for a smaller box.

1973
02:53:00,724 --> 02:53:02,724
So, yes, as I already mentioned in this space.

1974
02:53:04,724 --> 02:53:10,724
You can look up at scaling three, my talk, and I say we should shrink the L1 block size, and I still say that.

1975
02:53:11,724 --> 02:53:15,724
I'm one of the few people with a consistent block size shrink target.

1976
02:53:21,724 --> 02:53:25,724
So I don't know who you are, but you seem like a very confused person.

1977
02:53:27,724 --> 02:53:30,724
The issue with money is more than a store of value.

1978
02:53:31,724 --> 02:53:34,724
A store of value is only one of its three functions.

1979
02:53:35,724 --> 02:53:41,724
And this is like, you know, a couple of things in life, they need to have like a language, for example.

1980
02:53:44,724 --> 02:53:46,724
It needs to have many different functions.

1981
02:53:46,724 --> 02:53:48,724
So one is it needs to be accurate.

1982
02:53:49,724 --> 02:53:52,724
Like when we use words, we need to know what the other person is saying.

1983
02:53:53,724 --> 02:53:59,724
But it also needs to be somewhat parsimonious, which is like the languages of the ants in Lord of the Rings.

1984
02:54:00,724 --> 02:54:04,724
I don't know if you know what I'm talking about, but it's a fictional creature.

1985
02:54:05,724 --> 02:54:06,724
I haven't seen it anyway.

1986
02:54:08,724 --> 02:54:13,724
They have a very funny language where it takes them a very long time to say something.

1987
02:54:14,724 --> 02:54:16,724
And that's funny because it's a work of fiction.

1988
02:54:17,724 --> 02:54:18,724
But in the real world, it doesn't work.

1989
02:54:19,724 --> 02:54:25,724
So it's simply false that money can only be saved and never spent.

1990
02:54:26,724 --> 02:54:35,724
And in fact, there are two sides of the same coin, because you can just say when the money is storing a value is moving it through time.

1991
02:54:36,724 --> 02:54:38,724
But you have to eventually move it to something.

1992
02:54:39,724 --> 02:54:40,724
Otherwise, it's just destroyed.

1993
02:54:41,724 --> 02:54:43,724
And it's at the bottom of the ocean.

1994
02:54:44,724 --> 02:54:48,724
The same thing is whenever it's spent, you can just say, well, how long was it since it was last spent?

1995
02:54:49,724 --> 02:54:50,724
And it was stored until then.

1996
02:54:51,724 --> 02:54:53,724
So saving and spending are sort of the same thing.

1997
02:54:53,724 --> 02:54:54,724
Anything can be used.

1998
02:54:55,724 --> 02:55:03,724
In any event, there is no such thing as money that is only a store of value or only a medium of exchange.

1999
02:55:04,724 --> 02:55:09,724
Anything can be used as money if it follows seven conditions.

2000
02:55:10,724 --> 02:55:20,724
It should be a medium of exchange, accounting unit, be portable, be durable, be divisible, be fungible, and retain value.

2001
02:55:21,724 --> 02:55:26,724
When it comes to currency, the currency doesn't retain value over time.

2002
02:55:27,724 --> 02:55:28,724
Why do you butcher that thing?

2003
02:55:33,724 --> 02:55:34,724
Moon, you made it.

2004
02:55:35,724 --> 02:55:36,724
I don't know.

2005
02:55:36,724 --> 02:55:37,724
Hello, guys.

2006
02:55:37,724 --> 02:55:38,724
I don't know what he's talking about.

2007
02:55:39,724 --> 02:55:40,724
I don't know either.

2008
02:55:40,724 --> 02:55:45,724
But it was funny hearing that, can we undo pay-to-script?

2009
02:55:46,724 --> 02:55:48,724
Because that's kind of how Bitcoin was born.

2010
02:55:49,724 --> 02:55:50,724
So no, we can't really undo pay-to-script.

2011
02:55:51,724 --> 02:55:58,724
Pay-to-script hash was actually just a little bit, you know, turning it around.

2012
02:55:59,724 --> 02:56:00,724
Can you undo ordinals?

2013
02:56:01,724 --> 02:56:07,724
Because if you were able to undo ordinals, you would be able to undo pay-to-script.

2014
02:56:07,724 --> 02:56:12,724
We can't undo ordinals because ordinals have been possible since day one.

2015
02:56:13,724 --> 02:56:23,724
The only way to undo ordinals would be to hash for Bitcoin into having confidential transactions because that would pretty much make it impossible to count satoshis.

2016
02:56:26,724 --> 02:56:27,724
I agree.

2017
02:56:28,724 --> 02:56:43,724
I heard people say that, Moon, but actually I was wondering if they couldn't, I think to me, probably they would be able to invent a way of counting them anyway.

2018
02:56:44,724 --> 02:56:53,724
I'm not sure, but I think you could always say like the order of the public keys in the ring signature determines who's, maybe you don't really know.

2019
02:56:53,724 --> 02:56:55,724
But I think actually they'd probably be able to.

2020
02:56:56,724 --> 02:57:05,724
You could maybe come up with another thing, but the current ordinal system would be completely broken by confidential transactions.

2021
02:57:08,724 --> 02:57:14,724
So how is the CTV, whatever you want to call it?

2022
02:57:15,724 --> 02:57:17,724
We already got Luke to say that it's an attack on Bitcoin.

2023
02:57:18,724 --> 02:57:19,724
No, no, no.

2024
02:57:20,724 --> 02:57:29,724
What happened was that we are all Bitcoiners and Bitcoiners can't fucking agree on anything, like anything whatsoever.

2025
02:57:30,724 --> 02:57:40,724
So in the CTV activation chat, everyone is just shouting at the others that they are fucking stupid and that's not what we should be doing.

2026
02:57:41,724 --> 02:57:48,724
And there is this guy, FDO or FD0 or the floppy disk guy, I'm not sure if you know him.

2027
02:57:49,724 --> 02:57:55,724
So he is basically, he is like a force of nature, there is absolutely no controlling him.

2028
02:57:56,724 --> 02:58:02,724
And he just went ahead and wrote up a speedy trial activation client for CTV.

2029
02:58:03,724 --> 02:58:06,724
He simply doesn't give a fuck about what other people want.

2030
02:58:06,724 --> 02:58:12,724
And Luke considered that an attack on Bitcoin because he thinks speedy trial is an attack on Bitcoin, not CTV.

2031
02:58:13,724 --> 02:58:14,724
It has nothing to do with CTV.

2032
02:58:15,724 --> 02:58:20,724
And other people have been arguing for days about LOT equals true or false.

2033
02:58:21,724 --> 02:58:28,724
And there is absolutely no consensus on it because again, Bitcoiners can't fucking agree on anything, like anything whatsoever.

2034
02:58:29,724 --> 02:58:32,724
Even on a fucking true or false activation parameters.

2035
02:58:32,724 --> 02:58:40,724
And so people are probably going to create like a bunch of activation clients and everyone will just do whatever the fuck they want.

2036
02:58:43,724 --> 02:58:52,724
Yeah, that sounds like it would be confusing to miners who are going to, because of course the miners will have to look at the situation and decide.

2037
02:58:53,724 --> 02:58:54,724
I don't know, this will be great.

2038
02:58:55,724 --> 02:58:56,724
I think we'll all benefit from this experiment.

2039
02:58:57,724 --> 02:58:58,724
So I cheer it on.

2040
02:58:59,724 --> 02:59:01,724
I think we'll all learn something.

2041
02:59:02,724 --> 02:59:03,724
I just don't understand Luke.

2042
02:59:04,724 --> 02:59:09,724
Luke just really, really, really, really, I think Luke's belief is insane.

2043
02:59:10,724 --> 02:59:12,724
But I applaud him for his consistency.

2044
02:59:13,724 --> 02:59:14,724
But his belief goes something like this.

2045
02:59:15,724 --> 02:59:29,724
If you don't run the latest version of Bitcoin, you aren't, not only you're not running Bitcoin, but you are like, if the people who behave like you reaches 20%, then you have killed Bitcoin.

2046
02:59:29,724 --> 02:59:41,724
And he, Luke always does this where, you know, you could say, on one hand, is it language games or is it hypnosis or is it just brainwashing or is it insanity?

2047
02:59:42,724 --> 02:59:53,724
I don't know, but why would someone kill Bitcoin, which is like, that already has a pretty defined meaning of like, no one uses it, its price is zero, the project is dead.

2048
02:59:53,724 --> 02:59:59,724
Listen, Luke has his own axiom system, he has his own logic framework and he's unbeatable in that.

2049
03:00:00,724 --> 03:00:04,724
If you go into that and play his game, he is going to win because he's unbeatable in that.

2050
03:00:05,724 --> 03:00:12,724
If you reject his axioms, if you reject his framework, then you will think he's insane and he doesn't make any sense.

2051
03:00:13,724 --> 03:00:14,724
So that's the situation with Luke.

2052
03:00:15,724 --> 03:00:17,724
I don't think he believes he's lying.

2053
03:00:18,724 --> 03:00:21,724
Like, I don't think he ever states something that he does not believe to be true.

2054
03:00:21,724 --> 03:00:24,724
But what he is saying sounds pretty insane at times.

2055
03:00:27,608 --> 03:00:35,608
So, yeah, so that's his position on what it means to run a full node and what it means for Bitcoin to be alive.

2056
03:00:35,608 --> 03:00:47,608
And, you know, I have actually examined it a little bit and it is insane, but I've said stuff like, what if we start with 80,000 nodes and then someone runs 500 million nodes of a new protocol

2057
03:00:47,608 --> 03:01:00,608
and then now you're the attack on Bitcoin. But, you know, as you can imagine, he's got a weird way of answering all these questions and I don't buy it. I think it's all nonsense.

2058
03:01:00,608 --> 03:01:16,608
But he's he has this view that there is only one. It's kind of a very religious view where there's only one full node that is the real one, like the real religion and anything else is a heresy.

2059
03:01:16,608 --> 03:01:36,608
And it's like so to. So he cannot tolerate like a kind of disagreement, like he cannot tolerate like the idea that some people would want CTV activated, whereas other people would just wait and they only upgrade their full node like every three years.

2060
03:01:36,608 --> 03:01:42,608
And they're kind of indifference to this. That does not really work for him, so I don't know.

2061
03:01:42,608 --> 03:01:56,608
Listen, we tried speedy trial. I mean, not me, Jeremy. Jeremy gave a speedy trial ago and there was a huge pushback. So it seems like the Bitcoin plebs, they don't actually want speedy trial.

2062
03:01:56,608 --> 03:02:13,608
They are pretty much against it at the moment. And of course, there is absolutely no consensus on that. But it seems like more people support BPAYT activation with LOT equals true than not.

2063
03:02:13,608 --> 03:02:33,608
And frankly, what I'm hoping is that if we go with that, then everyone who wants to argue with us, we have to argue with Luke. And you really don't want to do that. So I'm kind of going with Luke on this one. And we will see how it goes.

2064
03:02:33,608 --> 03:02:58,608
Okay, great. We had a hamster wheel, but he got knocked off. Maybe he will get back. I don't know. But I saw him go to connecting and then listener. So I don't know if that is the app or whatever.

2065
03:02:58,608 --> 03:03:10,608
This activation thing, by the way, is completely insane. I think people are literally insane in Bitcoin.

2066
03:03:10,608 --> 03:03:38,608
What it is, is it's set up in a way where, first of all, no one argues about the content of the idea. So no one actually has an opinion on CTV. It's all about the activation. And everyone wants it to just be something where it goes through them so that every single person needs to personally, whatever. Jeremy Rubin has to suck everyone's dick or whatever. Or else they're not going to do it. And that's the whole thing is just set up for that.

2067
03:03:39,608 --> 03:03:50,608
Not only they don't have an informed opinion on CTV, but they don't even know what they are talking about when they are discussing activation methods.

2068
03:03:50,608 --> 03:04:07,608
And I thought I know what I was talking about. But again, in Luke's framework, it turns out I did not because I thought that be paid with LLT was true is a USF. But Luke apparently said that no, that's not a USF. So that got me completely confused on what is going on.

2069
03:04:07,608 --> 03:04:16,608
So I don't even want to figure out who thinks what about this anymore, because people are just literally insane.

2070
03:04:18,608 --> 03:04:20,608
Only uninformed opinions.

2071
03:04:21,608 --> 03:04:22,608
We got the hamster back.

2072
03:04:23,608 --> 03:04:24,608
Hello.

2073
03:04:24,608 --> 03:04:40,608
Hey, Paul, I just wanted to obviously with the facebox, a lot of spaces, people are complaining about fee increases. I just wanted to have you dive a bit more on your position of why the block size should shrink when a lot of people now starting to argue whether there's.

2074
03:04:41,608 --> 03:04:42,608
Yes.

2075
03:04:43,608 --> 03:04:53,608
Yeah, so I think that because of the because of the future, I imagine involves many different merge mine sidechains.

2076
03:04:54,608 --> 03:05:10,608
I think people transact over there. And I have published a post called a thunder. If you search like truth going that info thunder, you can read in detail my my exact position and it has actual numbers and it has an appendix with like costs and things.

2077
03:05:11,608 --> 03:05:27,608
But my view is that most people will not use L1. And in fact, I think you can think like the I don't know if you were around for the whole metaphor that I gave about like the Bank of International Settlements and then the Fed and then the small bank commercial bank that we all have an account with.

2078
03:05:28,608 --> 03:05:39,608
And then the individual people who transact. So at the bottom of the pyramid, so to speak, there's the end user. And we do many transactions with like Visa or like with just cash or with a debit card.

2079
03:05:40,608 --> 03:05:55,608
And in comparison that many of these transactions net out, and so the banks themselves, they don't do that many as many transactions as the individual people do. They do a ton, but they don't do as many. It must be orders of magnitude less.

2080
03:05:56,608 --> 03:06:02,608
And by the time you make it up to how many transactions does the Fed actually do using the Bank of International Settlements with other banks?

2081
03:06:03,608 --> 03:06:15,608
And how many so like the gold fix or something, the actual how many times do you actually ship a battleship worth of gold between countries?

2082
03:06:16,608 --> 03:06:34,608
It's orders of magnitude less. And already the L1 blocks, it's 1000 blocks a week. And so in its 2000 something transactions a block. So that's already, you know, just multiply that out 2 million plus.

2083
03:06:34,608 --> 03:07:02,608
So that is already an enormous quantity. That's a huge amount. And we don't need those at the top. The top ones are just settle among the lower layers. And so my vision is for very low fees all around low fee rates, but a high quantity of fee paying transactions on different merge mine sidechains of which we only run a few.

2084
03:07:03,608 --> 03:07:19,608
So that is the that is the goal is to get get people off of the expensive L1 and get them onto the cheaper L2. And I think that is that is the only configuration that works unless you want to have any large blocks on L1.

2085
03:07:20,608 --> 03:07:33,608
Or if you just want to give up with that model, is it is there any reason for the user to have the blockchain of the L1 if they're all operating on the L2 wouldn't it just be the L2?

2086
03:07:34,608 --> 03:07:38,608
No, the way that it works.

2087
03:07:39,608 --> 03:07:40,608
Sorry, go ahead.

2088
03:07:40,608 --> 03:08:00,608
I was just gonna say it doesn't that it in my mind, I probably haven't got a good grasp of it. But it just the rationalization for smaller blocks is that anyone can download the blockchain. So if, if it's only the large companies that are using that base layer, why would it be that you'd need to have smaller blocks?

2089
03:08:01,608 --> 03:08:21,608
The, well, the small everyone will prefer to be on the lowest level if they can, because that's always the it's more redundant, it is around the longest, it is more fundamental. So like we would all we would prefer to be on people prefer to be on that.

2090
03:08:22,608 --> 03:08:40,608
To run the L2 node, you need to run an L1 node, they are asymmetric and hierarchical. So you must the only way the L2 node will work, for example, is that it must know when people have deposited coins from it to it from L1.

2091
03:08:41,608 --> 03:09:06,608
So every L2 node needs a full L1 node. Otherwise, it just won't, it will never detect any deposits, it will never detect anything, it'll just, it will be confused. So that is the key. So that it and that is in fact why you have the L1 be very small, and you have the L2 be very large block. Let's say for that exact reason.

2092
03:09:07,608 --> 03:09:09,608
Perfect. Thanks so much. Cheers.

2093
03:09:11,608 --> 03:09:35,608
Thanks. So yeah, I don't know, Moonsettler, it's, it's people are crazy, of course. And I don't know. But I think this is this is what you have to do. I mean, you and I together, and everyone who cares about Bitcoin, we have to like just, you know, like hold up a shine a spotlight on how absurd the process is, because

2094
03:09:36,608 --> 03:09:46,608
it is very absurd. And I don't understand what it's talking about. If you think LLT true. Why? Because it has miner signaling. So what exactly does...

2095
03:09:46,608 --> 03:10:08,608
So for the audience, maybe we should catch up on this. So BIP9 is speedy trial. And everyone seems to be claiming lately that is an attack on Bitcoin. Although the Bitcoin Core developers and also the Bitcoin developers, highly technical people prefer BIP9, because they know it's less risky.

2096
03:10:09,608 --> 03:10:27,608
And I like BIP9. BIP9 is how we activated many, many soft forks. And so what I like about it is it already works. And there's no bike shedding, because it's the status quo. And we just we just ignore what happened with the block size debate. And we just go back to this. But, but anyway,

2097
03:10:27,608 --> 03:10:50,608
So the developers usually prefer BIP9, except for Luke and a few others who claim it's an attack on Bitcoin. And it shouldn't be so because the miners have a choice of not activating the fork, even though it's always implicit, as James O'Bernie and other people pointed out.

2098
03:10:51,608 --> 03:11:07,608
It's always, always implied that if BIP9 fails, if the speedy trial fails, then we are just going to UASF anyhow, if the fork is important. But it's the lowest risk way of activating something quickly.

2099
03:11:07,608 --> 03:11:28,608
But there are a few preconditions to be this that that seems to be like the people require. And again, it's more popular in core developers and a lot of people are claiming that this is an attack by core and it shouldn't be used.

2100
03:11:29,608 --> 03:11:50,608
And the interesting logical impossibility of this all is, as I like to say, is people are so mad about the possibility that the miners won't activate something that they could activate, is that they would oppose it so that the miners can't activate it.

2101
03:11:51,608 --> 03:11:56,608
It doesn't matter. Think about 2017.

2102
03:11:57,608 --> 03:12:05,608
Just think about 2017. Miners have no controls on your value.

2103
03:12:06,608 --> 03:12:07,608
They can.

2104
03:12:07,608 --> 03:12:12,608
No, this is nothing. I don't know. This is a kind of like a weird guy. I don't know. But he's.

2105
03:12:13,608 --> 03:12:14,608
Come on.

2106
03:12:14,608 --> 03:12:27,608
This 2017 is widely misinterpreted as saying the miners tried to change Bitcoin and they failed. But really, what actually happened was in 2017, was that there was a miner activated.

2107
03:12:27,608 --> 03:12:42,608
We have five million bitcoins stored on on batch 32 addresses. Based on what you're talking, you can afford back. And those five million coins will be just anyone can spend. And that's it.

2108
03:12:43,608 --> 03:12:51,608
Well, you don't seem to believe in the any. I mean, you're saying that miners do activate those softworks.

2109
03:12:52,608 --> 03:12:53,608
No, no, no, no.

2110
03:12:53,608 --> 03:13:02,608
But for the miners, they would all be lost. And the only thing that's keeping them in force is that miners only build on. So you're saying you actually take a pure miner view.

2111
03:13:03,608 --> 03:13:27,608
Miners are not able to if they want to fork all good. I'll have my coins. I have my my value stored on the main chain in the in the legacy and compressed addresses. And I have value on the forked chain. It happened in 2017. If you want to do it again, please do it. Free money for me.

2112
03:13:28,608 --> 03:13:29,608
What are you referring to?

2113
03:13:30,608 --> 03:13:34,608
Anyway, I don't know. This guy's a weird guy, but details about that.

2114
03:13:34,608 --> 03:14:00,608
What actually happened in 2017 was that we actually activated SegWit with a miner activated soft fork pre-UASF. And then separately, there was a spinoff Bitcoin Cash that had nothing to do with mining. Like at all. It was an August 1st. Completely different. So I don't know.

2115
03:14:00,608 --> 03:14:18,608
The bizarre thing is that it is, in fact, required that everyone who is running the new. I think about it like this. Satoshi introduces Bitcoin in 2009. And then after that, the Bitcoin miners of 2009, they're the ones who built the blockchain of 2009.

2116
03:14:18,608 --> 03:14:19,608
2008.

2117
03:14:20,608 --> 03:14:40,608
So there's no way for there to be any people in building the like the miners must upgrade in order for the soft fork to activate. Someone may not be the same miners, but they must upgrade to get profits to continue to get profit.

2118
03:14:41,608 --> 03:14:43,608
This is a complete clusterfuck, by the way.

2119
03:14:43,608 --> 03:14:53,608
In 2017, the miners switched to the Bcash chain because it was more profitable for them to mine that chain.

2120
03:14:53,608 --> 03:14:54,608
They switched back and forth.

2121
03:14:54,608 --> 03:14:55,608
Yeah.

2122
03:14:56,608 --> 03:15:08,608
But it's a complete clusterfuck because people assume that miners are running the software. But in reality, almost none of them do in the signaling period.

2123
03:15:08,608 --> 03:15:17,608
So in the signaling period, they are just signaling readiness or willingness. I don't know what. But as I heard, very few of them actually run the new software.

2124
03:15:17,608 --> 03:15:25,608
They don't switch so easily over. So they just flip the bits and fuck with us and let us have our fun with the activation drama.

2125
03:15:25,608 --> 03:15:28,608
But they don't actually touch the node software.

2126
03:15:28,608 --> 03:15:32,608
So this is an interesting tidbit to all of this, but it is beside the point.

2127
03:15:32,608 --> 03:15:39,608
So what I wanted to say, so BIP-9 is speedy trial and in BIP-8 you have two options.

2128
03:15:39,608 --> 03:15:44,608
And one is L-O-T equals false and the other is L-O-T equals true.

2129
03:15:44,608 --> 03:16:03,608
And the difference between them is that L-O-T equals false is kind of similar to speedy trial in that if the miners do not signal readiness to the threshold in any epoch, then basically the software will not force to activate.

2130
03:16:04,608 --> 03:16:14,608
And in L-O-T equals true, you will have a lockout, locking on timeout time date or whatever you want to call it. It's actually a block height.

2131
03:16:14,608 --> 03:16:22,608
So you have a block height at which the upgrading node software is starting to do a filtering.

2132
03:16:22,608 --> 03:16:29,608
Like they will not propagate blocks that do not signal and stuff like that.

2133
03:16:29,608 --> 03:16:34,608
They keep track of those blocks and they don't block the other clients, but they deem it invalid.

2134
03:16:34,608 --> 03:16:38,608
They won't advance that change state and they don't propagate the non-signaling blocks.

2135
03:16:38,608 --> 03:16:41,608
And this is how they try to force the miners to signal.

2136
03:16:41,608 --> 03:16:45,608
So that is what people refer to as a UASF.

2137
03:16:45,608 --> 03:16:49,608
Of course, you could do a UASF with a simple deadline activation.

2138
03:16:49,608 --> 03:16:55,608
Like you could program the node software to simply start enforcing the rules at a certain date.

2139
03:16:55,608 --> 03:17:09,608
But most developers feel that actually having the miners being able to communicate with each other in a peer-to-peer fashion and being able to signal readiness and stuff is actually valuable.

2140
03:17:09,608 --> 03:17:13,608
So that is why we have this whole circus with the miners signaling thing.

2141
03:17:14,608 --> 03:17:26,608
So I just wanted to give a recap to people to understand that BP8LOT equals false is kind of forcing, trying to force the miners.

2142
03:17:26,608 --> 03:17:39,608
And the problem with that is, of course, if the miners would connect to each other through the Bitcoin peer-to-peer network, the peer-to-peer relay network, then this would be a very, very powerful tool.

2143
03:17:39,608 --> 03:17:49,608
Because imagine if the nodes are not propagating your blocks, then you would be in a real bad position compared to other miners whose blocks are getting propagated.

2144
03:17:49,608 --> 03:17:52,608
It would be a huge and enormous economic pressure.

2145
03:17:52,608 --> 03:18:00,608
The problem is the miners have their own high-speed relay network, and they don't actually depend on PLEB nodes to do their block relaying.

2146
03:18:00,608 --> 03:18:02,608
So they don't actually give a fuck about that.

2147
03:18:02,608 --> 03:18:14,608
I'm just trying to highlight the fact that it actually is – the software doesn't actually activate until there are miners running the new software.

2148
03:18:14,608 --> 03:18:19,608
Because you can just imagine a scenario where it's impossible for any miner to run the new software.

2149
03:18:19,608 --> 03:18:21,608
Right now, the chain will just stall.

2150
03:18:21,608 --> 03:18:23,608
No one will ever find a block.

2151
03:18:24,608 --> 03:18:25,608
So that's a weird scenario.

2152
03:18:25,608 --> 03:18:31,608
But people try to say – people like Luke, they try to say miners never activate the soft fork.

2153
03:18:31,608 --> 03:18:35,608
But really, that is the only necessary and sufficient condition.

2154
03:18:35,608 --> 03:18:43,608
The whole origin of the soft fork is just if miners only build on blocks that extend the rules, we don't need everyone else to upgrade.

2155
03:18:43,608 --> 03:18:46,608
So the whole thing was very – Luke has a very different view.

2156
03:18:46,608 --> 03:19:01,608
The whole reason the soft fork was invented was because people knew that not everyone would do the Dasherian thing, the Lukian thing, of everyone running the latest version.

2157
03:19:01,608 --> 03:19:12,608
If everyone was always running the latest version, we'd have our own other more severe problems, like who's releasing this version, and why do they have this godlike power to impose their will on everyone?

2158
03:19:12,608 --> 03:19:14,608
It's the drop of a hat.

2159
03:19:14,608 --> 03:19:16,608
But I'm not going to argue with Luke.

2160
03:19:16,608 --> 03:19:19,608
I think my life is too short for that.

2161
03:19:22,608 --> 03:19:23,608
Right.

2162
03:19:23,608 --> 03:19:36,608
So anyway, I'm kind of of the opinion that you should just get 51% hash rate to – but other people, they really, really like the hats, and they like thinking you're so important.

2163
03:19:36,608 --> 03:19:39,608
I wanted to say something about the 51%.

2164
03:19:39,608 --> 03:19:41,608
So we have a decision now.

2165
03:19:41,608 --> 03:19:51,608
We are trying to determine the optimal ratio of signaling for Lukian.

2166
03:19:51,608 --> 03:19:56,608
And you would think that 51% is like okay.

2167
03:19:56,608 --> 03:20:00,608
In fact, FloppyDisk guy actually wants to go with 30%.

2168
03:20:00,608 --> 03:20:01,608
I don't know why.

2169
03:20:01,608 --> 03:20:04,608
I don't know what kind of logic goes in there.

2170
03:20:05,608 --> 03:20:10,608
Obviously, you need at least 51% to truly enforce rules.

2171
03:20:10,608 --> 03:20:14,608
If you can even believe the miners – because like I said, miners signaling is a bit of a lark.

2172
03:20:14,608 --> 03:20:16,608
It doesn't really mean anything.

2173
03:20:16,608 --> 03:20:21,608
But let's say you actually believe that it's true.

2174
03:20:21,608 --> 03:20:25,608
Even then, what is 51% at a point of time?

2175
03:20:25,608 --> 03:20:31,608
By the time it comes to the activation window with new hash rate adding to the network, it might actually not mean 51%.

2176
03:20:31,608 --> 03:20:33,608
And then you have a problem.

2177
03:20:33,608 --> 03:20:43,608
Because maybe the proof-of-work network goes one way, and the nodes that are enforcing the new rule set are simply folded off, as you said,

2178
03:20:43,608 --> 03:20:48,608
because it is not profitable or whatever reason nobody is mining it.

2179
03:20:50,608 --> 03:20:51,608
But I don't think that's a big deal.

2180
03:20:51,608 --> 03:20:52,608
This is just a noisy metric.

2181
03:20:52,608 --> 03:20:54,608
So I would just say it's 51.

2182
03:20:54,608 --> 03:21:01,608
It's 50.0000001 is the real threshold plus a bunch to account for the noise.

2183
03:21:01,608 --> 03:21:03,608
So just say it's 55%.

2184
03:21:03,608 --> 03:21:09,608
It's more like 85% is considered to be the minimum safe threshold.

2185
03:21:09,608 --> 03:21:11,608
All things considered.

2186
03:21:11,608 --> 03:21:15,608
And the recommended threshold is actually 90%.

2187
03:21:15,608 --> 03:21:17,608
And that is like a very high threshold.

2188
03:21:17,608 --> 03:21:21,608
If you think about it, the chances of getting that is very, very low.

2189
03:21:21,608 --> 03:21:25,608
And that's interesting.

2190
03:21:25,608 --> 03:21:27,608
And I'm not sure what to think about that.

2191
03:21:28,608 --> 03:21:36,608
But basically the bar is set so high that it's almost impossible to achieve like a miner activation.

2192
03:21:36,608 --> 03:21:43,608
That's why you are not able to move with your beeps.

2193
03:21:43,608 --> 03:21:50,608
Because the 51% attack already happened just running the new software.

2194
03:21:50,608 --> 03:21:54,608
The attack happened already.

2195
03:21:54,608 --> 03:21:56,608
And they are just blocking you.

2196
03:21:56,608 --> 03:21:58,608
I'm going to say this now.

2197
03:21:58,608 --> 03:22:00,608
Shut the fuck up, you retard.

2198
03:22:04,608 --> 03:22:06,608
It is very difficult to understand.

2199
03:22:06,608 --> 03:22:08,608
You don't know what you are talking about.

2200
03:22:08,608 --> 03:22:09,608
You have no idea what you are talking about.

2201
03:22:09,608 --> 03:22:10,608
Shut the fuck up.

2202
03:22:13,608 --> 03:22:15,608
I have to go at 430.

2203
03:22:15,608 --> 03:22:19,608
So this has been a lot of fun, though.

2204
03:22:20,608 --> 03:22:23,608
I actually do agree with Moon, though.

2205
03:22:23,608 --> 03:22:27,608
I don't understand what you are talking about most of the time.

2206
03:22:27,608 --> 03:22:32,608
But it is a very interesting point of view.

2207
03:22:36,608 --> 03:22:38,608
I should really leave now.

2208
03:22:38,608 --> 03:22:40,608
I have a little thing to do.

2209
03:22:40,608 --> 03:22:43,608
So I have to go.

2210
03:22:43,608 --> 03:22:44,608
This has been great.

2211
03:22:44,608 --> 03:22:45,608
Merry Christmas to all.

2212
03:22:45,608 --> 03:22:48,608
I hope to see everyone back again.

2213
03:22:49,608 --> 03:22:54,608
Merry Christmas to all who celebrate Christmas and also the other holidays that are great.

2214
03:22:56,608 --> 03:22:58,608
Happy Solstice.

2215
03:22:58,608 --> 03:23:00,608
And see everyone later.

2216
03:23:02,608 --> 03:23:03,608
Bye.