1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,960 Think about it. You got, you got five seconds to think about something to say. 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:07,320 It's block time. This is Michael Tidwell. 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:09,800 And this is Michael B. Casey. 4 00:00:10,120 --> 00:00:11,280 And our blocks are? 5 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:12,400 Overrated. 6 00:00:13,120 --> 00:00:18,000 There we go. And today we have Paul Sztorc. 7 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:18,960 No one knows. 8 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:19,920 Sztorc. 9 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:20,920 With storks. 10 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,480 Yeah, well it's storts, but it's really whatever you want. 11 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:27,680 I'm at this point. I'm over it. 12 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:29,000 I'm over it. 13 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,320 I think there's five different ways I said it initially. 14 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,320 Shorts, sporks, storts. 15 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,200 Yeah, well if you care, in Polish, the crescent shape is a different letter. 16 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,480 It's not the letter C. It's a completely different letter. 17 00:00:40,480 --> 00:00:44,040 It's pronounced T-S, so it's storts. 18 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,240 Polish has more than 26 letters, and there's a different one for C, so. 19 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,320 Ah, so they're like base, like 32? 20 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:52,960 Something like, yeah, 32. 21 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:59,080 Okay, so, Paul, let's hear a little bit of a background of, 22 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,160 let's get to know who is Paul Sztorc. 23 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:04,160 Who is Paul? I don't know myself. 24 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:06,400 Maybe we'll all get to know. 25 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:10,880 I mean, so, my journey to Bitcoin intersects with this 26 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:16,160 prediction market stuff that I discovered when I was like 16 or 17 years old 27 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,600 on Robin Hanson's website, overcomingbias.com. 28 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,440 And it really did seem like Robin Hanson had, 29 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,760 and it still seems that way today, but it seemed at the time especially, 30 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,720 that he really had all the answers to all of life's big questions. 31 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:37,040 And he had this idea of the prediction market that could do a lot of heavy lifting, 32 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,160 solve a lot of really serious problems without a lot of kind of BS, 33 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:42,920 or just people who are just pretending to solve problems to look good, 34 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:44,720 and stuff like that. 35 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,840 And so I was really interested in prediction markets a long time ago. 36 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,320 And then I got, that was a totally separate kind of track of my life. 37 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:55,840 And then in school, I studied a lot of statistics and how to measure things. 38 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,120 And I majored in economics, among other things. 39 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:03,880 And you have to take a course in kind of statistical modeling, 40 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,400 which later, that's like a different track of my life. 41 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:11,200 But then while I was in graduate school, I got this email about Bitcoin. 42 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,680 And I thought, of course, I thought it was the stupidest thing in the world. 43 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:15,400 What year was this? 44 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:17,240 2011. 45 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,920 Also, what degrees were you pursuing? 46 00:02:19,920 --> 00:02:21,440 And what do you have? 47 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:23,480 Yeah, I have a double major. 48 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:27,320 So I have two, I have a major, I have a Bachelor of Arts in econ, 49 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,360 a Bachelor of Arts in psychology, which I got at the same time. 50 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:31,960 So it wasn't that much more work. 51 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,280 And I minored in math and music. 52 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,960 And then I got in graduate school, I got a master's of science 53 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,720 in operations research, which is like a branch of applied math, 54 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,280 like business statistics or something. 55 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,880 And I also have an MBA in finance, believe it or not. 56 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:52,160 And then I went from there, after I worked in consulting for a little while, 57 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:57,440 like a year in two different operations and finance for health care IT. 58 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:03,960 After that, I joined as like a member of staff, the Yale Research Department, 59 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,040 specifically the economics department. 60 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,240 And I worked there kind of doing pretty serious research 61 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,440 for like two and a half years. 62 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:12,800 So where did you get your MBA? 63 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:13,960 Which you studied. 64 00:03:14,920 --> 00:03:16,640 For the research. 65 00:03:16,640 --> 00:03:17,440 What did you mean? 66 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:18,400 Was it Yale? 67 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:19,040 Yeah. 68 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,360 It was all econ, and it was all statistics. 69 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:27,120 Specific stuff was like a lot of, it was sort of very macro, actually. 70 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:31,640 It really had nothing to do with what Bitcoin, what Bitcoin is. 71 00:03:31,640 --> 00:03:33,840 So you're like an expert on the Fed. 72 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,800 Well, the guy I worked for was actually chairman of the Boston Fed, 73 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,000 or a chairman of the Boston Fed. 74 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:46,000 And he was also the guy who inherited Paul Samuelson's famous econ textbook. 75 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,440 He is like the famous textbook guy. 76 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,840 And this guy, Bill Nordhaus, inherited. 77 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,760 He's actually a really, really super smart, super nice guy, 78 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,240 and huge, tremendous achievements, really. 79 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,160 So he's like kind of an awesome guy. 80 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:02,840 Cool. 81 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:04,720 So you heard about Bitcoin. 82 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:09,160 Yeah, I heard about it in 2011, and I thought it was incredibly stupid. 83 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:14,280 And then later on, it wasn't until the Wired Silk Road article came out. 84 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,000 And I was just imagining how desperate drug dealers 85 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,880 are to steal money or anything. 86 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,880 If you're really addicted, those are people who, if there's an easy way, 87 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:26,760 if there's a way to cheat the system, they'll 88 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:31,680 find it, because they need to get whatever, cocaine or whatever it is, 89 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:32,800 heroin. 90 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:38,520 So I was like, if this store is working for these type of people, 91 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,400 this thing must be rock solid if it's working for this type of. 92 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,040 It's like the sewer rat type of thing, like the bubble boy 93 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:50,040 versus the sewer rat type analogy, where you can try to wall something off 94 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,520 and make it good. 95 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:56,160 But you can just say, the sewer rat, man, you just throw everything at it. 96 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,360 And if it's still alive, then that thing's got to be tough. 97 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,120 So I was like, oh, I'm missing something. 98 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,840 So in other words, you heard about Bitcoin in 2011. 99 00:05:04,840 --> 00:05:05,920 You thought it was dumb. 100 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:07,040 I thought it was so dumb. 101 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,760 But at what point did you start seeing, like, OK, 102 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:12,680 maybe there's some use cases? 103 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:14,280 It sounds like dark market use cases. 104 00:05:14,280 --> 00:05:15,320 It was Silk Road. 105 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:17,800 OK, Silk Road, Wired is really what brought you on. 106 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,360 Yeah, the Wired article about Silk Road. 107 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,440 And I already had TOR, but it just was like an academic thing, 108 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:25,520 and I'd never really. 109 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:31,480 So I updated my TOR, and I visited Silk Road. 110 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:36,480 And really, it was like, something like 48 hours later, 111 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,960 I decided that Bitcoin would probably destroy 112 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,800 several of the world's major currencies over the next five years. 113 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:48,600 And I was browsing the Bitcoin talk, and it was just becoming clearer to me 114 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,120 that this was a real project. 115 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,760 And a lot of people here were really smart people. 116 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,560 And you look into the history of the cypherpunks, 117 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,440 and you look into the history of Chaum and these other people, 118 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:01,520 and I really got a sense that. 119 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,720 I read the white paper, but the white paper, it didn't make sense to me. 120 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,600 Now, it makes more sense to me than it ever did. 121 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:08,760 I feel like the more I learn about Bitcoin, the more the white paper 122 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:09,280 makes sense. 123 00:06:09,280 --> 00:06:12,480 But at the time, the only thing about the white paper that 124 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:16,840 made sense to me immediately was Satoshi's issuance of the coins 125 00:06:16,840 --> 00:06:20,600 via mining, because that was something that I was wondering about. 126 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,080 If you were going to create a currency, you have a big problem, which is like, 127 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:25,960 do you give it to yourself and your friends? 128 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:27,760 And if you don't, what happens to it? 129 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:29,520 Because it's got to be open source, right? 130 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:30,960 Because people are not going to trust it otherwise. 131 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,200 It's not really peer-to-peer unless it's open source, 132 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,320 because it's like, who's controlling the source? 133 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:36,400 You don't know what's inside, right? 134 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,440 You have no way of proving it's peer-to-peer. 135 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,640 But you have this other problem if it is peer-to-peer, which is, 136 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:46,840 what are you going to do with the fact that you're creating all this money? 137 00:06:46,840 --> 00:06:49,680 And you can't just give it to yourself and your friends. 138 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,000 But if you don't do that, there's some power vacuum 139 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,160 where someone else might take the code and give it 140 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:56,080 to themselves and their friends. 141 00:06:56,080 --> 00:07:01,240 And you have this really perplexing problem of how to issue the coins. 142 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,880 And that was the one thing that I read in the white paper. 143 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,400 And I was like, wow, this guy's legit. 144 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,320 And then I read at that point about how Satoshi mined a bunch of coins 145 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:11,880 that he didn't spend. 146 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:13,840 And that is another strong signal, right, 147 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,840 that this guy is not doing this as a get-rich-quick scheme. 148 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:24,920 He was at least willing to just run it totally altruistically for some time. 149 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:30,400 And so I was like, those were the things that really tipped the scales big time. 150 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,640 And then the other thing is that I tried to buy, summer 2012, 151 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,680 I tried to buy my first Bitcoin. 152 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:42,400 And it was so difficult. You don't really appreciate like, 153 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,680 I mean, I used BitInstant, or I tried to. 154 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:47,880 And I tried to buy like $60 worth. 155 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,120 And I almost barely couldn't do it because I just 156 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:52,080 assumed that, because I pay for everything with a credit card. 157 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:53,760 Because I'm like a white male. 158 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:54,680 I live in Connecticut. 159 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:55,880 I just like. 160 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:56,840 White male. 161 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:58,320 White male, Connecticut. 162 00:07:58,320 --> 00:07:58,820 Exactly. 163 00:07:58,820 --> 00:08:01,580 So the first thing I did, I got like graduate degrees. 164 00:08:01,580 --> 00:08:04,260 So the first thing I did when I was like 16 was like open a checking account. 165 00:08:04,260 --> 00:08:06,340 And I thought it was the coolest thing to like have all the money 166 00:08:06,340 --> 00:08:09,540 and like the official computer, the official money computer. 167 00:08:09,540 --> 00:08:11,980 The official banking blockchain? 168 00:08:11,980 --> 00:08:12,500 Exactly. 169 00:08:12,500 --> 00:08:14,700 That's decentralized, right? 170 00:08:14,700 --> 00:08:16,900 I got it onto the checking account blockchain. 171 00:08:16,900 --> 00:08:18,380 I got it into like my Quicken. 172 00:08:18,380 --> 00:08:20,420 I was like into all that stuff when I was like 16. 173 00:08:20,420 --> 00:08:23,860 I was like a total nerd, total finance nerd, that is. 174 00:08:23,860 --> 00:08:26,380 Hey, Paul, you brought up Satoshi mining. 175 00:08:26,620 --> 00:08:30,340 I think he has like a little less than a million, maybe like $800,000 176 00:08:30,340 --> 00:08:31,940 or something. 177 00:08:31,940 --> 00:08:36,420 Do you think Satoshi will ever start liquidating some of that out? 178 00:08:36,420 --> 00:08:37,540 Or what do you think? 179 00:08:37,540 --> 00:08:38,420 I'm just curious. 180 00:08:38,420 --> 00:08:39,300 I don't think he will. 181 00:08:39,300 --> 00:08:40,580 I don't think he'll ever do it. 182 00:08:40,580 --> 00:08:41,500 But he might. 183 00:08:41,500 --> 00:08:43,780 He'd have to reveal himself if he did that. 184 00:08:43,780 --> 00:08:44,940 Well, maybe. 185 00:08:44,940 --> 00:08:47,860 You might say he's waiting for strong fungibility. 186 00:08:47,860 --> 00:08:49,860 Or you might say he's waiting for like Bitcoin 187 00:08:49,860 --> 00:08:52,940 to like reach its equilibrium and just take over as much as it can. 188 00:08:52,940 --> 00:08:56,060 And then he decides that it's grown enough. 189 00:08:56,060 --> 00:08:58,700 And now it's safe to exit slowly. 190 00:08:58,700 --> 00:09:00,140 But I think he just will never. 191 00:09:00,140 --> 00:09:01,300 I think he just won't do it. 192 00:09:01,300 --> 00:09:04,540 I think he just decided that it was like his gift to the world 193 00:09:04,540 --> 00:09:07,100 and that he's not going to take advantage of the fact 194 00:09:07,100 --> 00:09:10,740 that he happened to really by, you know, 195 00:09:10,740 --> 00:09:14,020 it was not really by chance because he was totally not at all by chance. 196 00:09:14,020 --> 00:09:15,860 It was by purpose. 197 00:09:15,860 --> 00:09:19,980 But I think it's just like, I just, the kind of guy 198 00:09:19,980 --> 00:09:23,260 I kind of feel like he is is the kind of person who would just say, 199 00:09:23,260 --> 00:09:27,340 I mean, you know, he's probably mined a few under his real name 200 00:09:27,340 --> 00:09:29,020 conditional on him still being alive. 201 00:09:29,020 --> 00:09:31,820 And yeah, it's probably, he's probably got 1,000 or 10,000. 202 00:09:31,820 --> 00:09:32,740 That's probably enough. 203 00:09:32,740 --> 00:09:35,340 I mean, it's very altruistic of anyone 204 00:09:35,340 --> 00:09:37,420 to own more than like 1,000 Bitcoins. 205 00:09:37,420 --> 00:09:41,220 Because, you know, if you get, if Bitcoin succeeds, 206 00:09:41,220 --> 00:09:43,540 you'll have like plenty of money. 207 00:09:43,540 --> 00:09:45,780 It's really at this point, especially now 208 00:09:45,780 --> 00:09:48,100 with all the progress that's been made, I mean, 209 00:09:48,100 --> 00:09:49,860 you really only need, I think, like 100. 210 00:09:49,860 --> 00:09:51,660 But, you know, I'll leave it up to people. 211 00:09:51,940 --> 00:09:53,660 The reason I say it's altruistic is that you're... 212 00:09:53,660 --> 00:09:55,420 Mike, I need to buy more Bitcoin. 213 00:09:55,420 --> 00:10:00,020 Yeah, you're help supporting the network by not just selling, 214 00:10:00,020 --> 00:10:05,540 by kind of, by undiversifying yourself and by over-investing 215 00:10:05,540 --> 00:10:08,020 and by really levering up into Bitcoin and by owning, 216 00:10:08,020 --> 00:10:10,540 you know, if you own like 100,000 Bitcoins, 217 00:10:10,540 --> 00:10:13,420 you are like bearing the cross, so to speak. 218 00:10:13,420 --> 00:10:15,540 Like Ver, Roger? 219 00:10:15,540 --> 00:10:17,140 Probably, well known, that's for sure. 220 00:10:17,140 --> 00:10:18,660 But probably something like that. 221 00:10:18,900 --> 00:10:20,100 Yeah. 222 00:10:20,100 --> 00:10:22,460 I asked Roger Ver how many Bitcoin he has 223 00:10:22,460 --> 00:10:25,820 and he showed me all of his cold storage wallets. 224 00:10:25,820 --> 00:10:27,060 He did, really? 225 00:10:27,060 --> 00:10:27,900 No. 226 00:10:27,900 --> 00:10:30,180 I was going to say, like, that would be really 227 00:10:30,180 --> 00:10:34,660 out of character, kind of unwise of him. 228 00:10:34,660 --> 00:10:36,140 So what do you think is more important 229 00:10:36,140 --> 00:10:38,020 for the growth of the Bitcoin economy? 230 00:10:38,020 --> 00:10:41,540 You know, holders or, you know, spenders trying to actually, 231 00:10:41,540 --> 00:10:43,220 because if you're talking about Bitcoin, 232 00:10:43,220 --> 00:10:46,020 is it like the store of value more important right now 233 00:10:46,020 --> 00:10:49,540 or is it actual use as a medium of exchange? 234 00:10:49,540 --> 00:10:52,420 Yeah, so money supposedly has these three attributes, 235 00:10:52,420 --> 00:10:55,220 store of value, unit of account, medium of exchange. 236 00:10:55,220 --> 00:10:58,340 And I think the definitions have like derailed substantially 237 00:10:58,340 --> 00:11:02,300 but I'm willing to entertain your question anyway, 238 00:11:02,300 --> 00:11:03,740 even though I'm going to go back to this. 239 00:11:03,740 --> 00:11:07,580 So I think conditional on Bitcoin being spendable, 240 00:11:07,580 --> 00:11:09,820 I mean, Bitcoin is going to compete 241 00:11:09,820 --> 00:11:11,420 just like everything competes. 242 00:11:11,420 --> 00:11:15,700 So, but conditional on it being used for, 243 00:11:15,700 --> 00:11:17,660 or being usable for transactions, 244 00:11:19,380 --> 00:11:21,420 the store of value aspect is more important 245 00:11:21,420 --> 00:11:23,300 because you're only spending it. 246 00:11:23,300 --> 00:11:26,500 If you spend the money, by definition, 247 00:11:26,500 --> 00:11:28,540 half of those parties are losing the money immediately 248 00:11:28,540 --> 00:11:29,680 so they don't care. 249 00:11:29,680 --> 00:11:32,380 But the guy who's gaining the money, 250 00:11:32,380 --> 00:11:37,380 he must now hope that he can discharge it later. 251 00:11:38,260 --> 00:11:41,020 So the money, Richard Dawkins says that money 252 00:11:41,540 --> 00:11:45,420 and Nick Szabo quotes him in his essay, Shelling Out. 253 00:11:46,580 --> 00:11:48,860 He quotes him as saying that money is a token, 254 00:11:48,860 --> 00:11:52,460 a formal token of delayed reciprocal altruism. 255 00:11:52,460 --> 00:11:54,660 So it's like you're repaying a favor 256 00:11:54,660 --> 00:11:57,660 but it's a formal token that you're going to repay a favor. 257 00:11:57,660 --> 00:11:59,460 But it's the point is it's delayed. 258 00:11:59,460 --> 00:12:00,740 If someone does a favor for you 259 00:12:00,740 --> 00:12:04,160 and you do a favor back immediately, it's not really money. 260 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,620 So it's like if you scratch someone's back 261 00:12:07,620 --> 00:12:08,740 and then they scratch your back, 262 00:12:08,740 --> 00:12:09,580 it's sort of like, you know, 263 00:12:09,580 --> 00:12:11,740 there's some liquid trust that we have in the world. 264 00:12:11,740 --> 00:12:13,860 Like if you go to a restaurant, you order a meal, 265 00:12:13,860 --> 00:12:15,860 you get the meal, but you haven't paid 266 00:12:15,860 --> 00:12:18,020 at the exact instant you get the food, right? 267 00:12:18,020 --> 00:12:19,780 You wait until the end. 268 00:12:19,780 --> 00:12:23,140 And theoretically, you could dine and dash and leave, right? 269 00:12:23,140 --> 00:12:24,920 But most people don't. 270 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,380 And similarly, you often pay for things first 271 00:12:27,380 --> 00:12:29,720 before you get them, doing it in reverse. 272 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,800 So if there's this little liquid amount of trust, 273 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,020 there's no real need for the institution of money. 274 00:12:35,020 --> 00:12:36,960 But since there's delays, 275 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,840 this, so what I mean is by those three definitions, 276 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,160 in particular, the store of value was meant to say 277 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,680 that money could not rot. 278 00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:49,720 It wasn't something like milk that would like, 279 00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:52,600 you know, spoil or something like food. 280 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:58,320 It was a quality of the thing that it would persist. 281 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:00,160 So that's important. 282 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:01,280 Durability, right? 283 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,920 Yeah, it's like a checkbox more than anything else. 284 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:04,740 Is it durable? 285 00:13:04,740 --> 00:13:05,580 Yes or no? 286 00:13:05,580 --> 00:13:06,560 And so the answer is yes. 287 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,080 But it's hard for Bitcoin to be any more durable 288 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,760 than any other cryptocurrency, right? 289 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:13,720 Because it's just going to be, 290 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:16,760 like it's either durable, 291 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:18,680 either cryptocurrency is durable or it's not. 292 00:13:18,680 --> 00:13:20,320 And you can't really get like more durable. 293 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,280 Like that doesn't, it doesn't really apply. 294 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:23,400 I mean, I don't think it's some vague thing 295 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,920 of like decentralization with the number of nodes, but. 296 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:27,200 You could say something like, 297 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:28,480 if we switch to an altcoin, 298 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,080 that would mean by definition, 299 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,960 they're all vulnerable to being switched on suddenly. 300 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:34,680 And so then they're all not durable, 301 00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:36,720 but it's still kind of uniform, I think. 302 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,920 So here's my rough definition of money. 303 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:43,400 I'd like to hear what you think about it. 304 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,880 So I've always thought of money as a record 305 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,280 or an accounting record of the value 306 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:51,840 that society owes a person. 307 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:52,680 Yeah, something like that. 308 00:13:52,680 --> 00:13:55,400 Large owes, that's how much money you have. 309 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:59,360 It's how much value or goods or services society owes you. 310 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:00,800 Well, it's not really society, right? 311 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:02,080 It's just the monetary network. 312 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,680 So like, euros are no good in the United States. 313 00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:05,960 You can't spend them anywhere. 314 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,840 So it's like, if the United States, 315 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,520 if you consider like Canada a part of society, 316 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:12,600 which I mean, I would. 317 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:15,360 Yeah, it's true. 318 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,040 I mean, you have lots of different systems, but yeah. 319 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,320 Right, but yeah, I think that's generally, 320 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,160 I mean, so I mean, Richard Dawkins has that definition, 321 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,680 formal token of delayed reciprocal altruism. 322 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:27,720 And Nick Szabo has the big essay 323 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,000 about the origins of money, which is fascinating. 324 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,280 I mean, it's got a great detail in there. 325 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,480 But I think what money really is, is a meme. 326 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:36,920 It's like meme, you know? 327 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,200 Because like words are memes, right? 328 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,360 And people, Dan Dennett asks a really amusing question, 329 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:46,840 which is, do words exist? 330 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,360 And if they don't exist, then you have to wonder like, 331 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:50,760 what you and I are doing right now. 332 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:52,240 He actually does it much cleverer. 333 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,800 He puts it up on the PowerPoint, does do words exist? 334 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:57,960 And then he says, how many people agree with this? 335 00:14:57,960 --> 00:14:59,720 And he makes them raise their hands and they clicks it off. 336 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:01,640 So it's blank. 337 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:03,480 And, you know, so it says, do words exist? 338 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,600 And he asked people to raise their hand 339 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:07,960 if they think that words exist. 340 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,080 And then he challenges all the people who say that words, 341 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,080 you know, of course no one is actually willing to say 342 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:13,920 that words don't exist. 343 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,560 Sounds like something I would do when I get retired. 344 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:18,400 Like I'll just do random shit like that. 345 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:19,240 Show people like that. 346 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:23,480 I mean, so the thing is, the crux of the matter though, 347 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,840 is that what are words made of if they exist? 348 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,200 Because you could write them down on paper 349 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:31,160 or you could pronounce them out loud 350 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,080 or you could type them into a computer, right? 351 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,840 And words aren't made out of any substrate. 352 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:39,320 They're not made out of like wood. 353 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:40,160 What? 354 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:41,000 They're patterns. 355 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:42,400 Yeah, they're made out of information. 356 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:43,240 Yeah. 357 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:44,080 Exactly. 358 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:45,120 So they're made out of information. 359 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,040 So something can exist even if it doesn't, 360 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,280 even if it's only information. 361 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,720 We are talking about, this conversation is gone 362 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,160 somewhere I did not expect. 363 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:55,920 Yeah, but that's my point about money. 364 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:57,560 You understand it's the point about money 365 00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:59,280 is that people wonder what it is. 366 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,200 And then they're like, how can it exist? 367 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,040 It doesn't have to be gold, doesn't have to be tangible, 368 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:05,880 but something can exist even if it's only information, 369 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:07,520 which is kind of what you were saying. 370 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,320 So the thing is, what is money? 371 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,760 It's a meme, but it is kind of like a collective memory. 372 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:14,280 I agree with you about that, 373 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,640 that it's like someone owes someone a favor 374 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,160 and you kind of remember who it is. 375 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:21,640 This is why it's important. 376 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:23,760 It always sticks on people. 377 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:25,160 Money has to have all the qualities. 378 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:26,520 And one of the funny ones on there 379 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:28,640 is that money has to be recognizable. 380 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,000 And that one always seems kind of soft or flaky 381 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,760 or kind of psychological to people, right? 382 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:38,760 Good money is like, durable, fungible, divisible. 383 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,080 It's got a high value to weight ratio. 384 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:43,960 Exactly, portable, exactly. 385 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,200 And so, but it has to be recognizable as well. 386 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,160 And in fact, you could cast like a magic spell 387 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:50,840 on a $20 bill or something. 388 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,440 And just, so it's a totally valid $20 bill, 389 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,360 but people just don't recognize it for some reason. 390 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:58,960 But you wouldn't be able to use it as money anywhere. 391 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:00,440 Like an ATM wouldn't recognize it 392 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:01,920 and humans wouldn't recognize it. 393 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:03,560 It would cease to be money 394 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:05,480 for this purely psychological reason. 395 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,600 And that is because money is, 396 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:10,360 it is information in your head 397 00:17:10,360 --> 00:17:12,520 that is like social information. 398 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:14,560 So like you have to remember, 399 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:15,880 it's the same as remembering 400 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:17,040 that someone did a favor for you. 401 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,960 If you gave the person amnesia and they couldn't remember, 402 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:21,480 losing the recognizability of money 403 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:23,160 is like a parallel to that, I think. 404 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:24,240 I've always referred to that, 405 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,640 that treat as verifiability, verifiable. 406 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,040 And so that has like a dual meaning of that, 407 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:31,760 being recognizable as its own thing. 408 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,120 And also, it's not counterfeited. 409 00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:35,960 Yeah, sure. 410 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:36,800 That's another thing too. 411 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,160 Like a gold bar has lead in it. 412 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:40,000 Don't know. 413 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:41,400 Yeah, I think it's the same thing. 414 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:42,240 Yeah. 415 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,720 Okay, before we stop talking about what is money 416 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:45,560 and all this crap. 417 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,400 Yeah, but one more thing is someone could say, 418 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:49,560 you could give someone a gold bar 419 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:51,600 and they could say, I don't recognize this as money. 420 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:53,280 I don't agree that this is a gold bar 421 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,000 because I don't know if there's lead in there or not. 422 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:55,840 And so I think that's right. 423 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,640 Okay, now go back to your, sorry, I just wanted to say that. 424 00:17:58,640 --> 00:17:59,920 You know what's funny, Paul? 425 00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:02,680 That is actually the hard, 426 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:04,880 that's one of the hardest things to find out about gold 427 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:09,680 because lead and gold have almost the same density. 428 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:11,160 Well, and if you mix it with another one, 429 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,600 you could even create the same density volume ratio 430 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:14,920 if you got really. 431 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:15,760 Yeah. 432 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:17,600 No, you, I mean, I mean. 433 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,160 Something with a tungsten and lead, I think. 434 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,280 Because every tungsten and lead together. 435 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,000 And you have to, it's like an MRI machine, I think, 436 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,240 in order to tell. 437 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:27,280 So it's like, good luck finding, 438 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,240 or you need to cut into it, of course. 439 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:32,920 You're making me want to research the, 440 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:34,440 it's either tungsten or lead. 441 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,800 One has, one's like 19.3 grams per centimeter cubed 442 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,000 and the other one's like 19.25. 443 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,200 Well, I think it's a ratio. 444 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:43,920 It has to be an exact ratio 445 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,360 and then it gets the exact same density as gold. 446 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:48,840 Yeah, but that's incredibly hard 447 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,080 versus just filling it with lead or whatever 448 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:52,120 because it's almost the same. 449 00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:52,960 But anyways. 450 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:54,360 Well, yeah, but I mean, that's really. 451 00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:58,320 Talking about, talking about, let's talk about Bitcoin. 452 00:18:58,320 --> 00:18:59,680 I don't want to talk about gold. 453 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:01,080 Let's do it. 454 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:02,120 Hey, Paul, real quick. 455 00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:03,280 What is a blockchain? 456 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:06,280 Blocked, what is a blockchain? 457 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:07,120 That's, I was gonna say. 458 00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:09,320 What's your definition of blockchain? 459 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:10,720 What's blockchain? 460 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:11,880 What's blockchain? 461 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:12,720 What's blockchain, Paul? 462 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,680 No, I've got, it's a, I've got a four word definition. 463 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:17,280 I'm competing for the shortest definition. 464 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:19,480 So it's the technology behind Bitcoin. 465 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:22,080 That's beautiful. 466 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:22,920 I want to steal that. 467 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,520 Yeah, it's the best, it's the best definition around. 468 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:28,320 Yeah, everyone struggles to define it. 469 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:29,640 No, I mean like, that's what it is. 470 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:30,600 That's, that's what started 471 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:32,880 the whole blockchain conversation. 472 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:34,000 No one can deny that. 473 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:35,840 That's, that's, that's, that's great. 474 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,000 And then people want to say, oh, whatever, other thing. 475 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:39,280 Okay, fine, fine. 476 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:40,120 You can say that if you want, 477 00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:42,800 but what it is ultimately is the technology behind Bitcoin. 478 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:44,400 You can go into more detail if you want. 479 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:45,240 You can say. 480 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,280 My definition is the technology behind Hyperledger. 481 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:52,520 Yeah, which is what exactly? 482 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:54,320 Kafka, Apache Kafka. 483 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:55,160 Apache Kafka. 484 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:57,080 Great. 485 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:58,760 Totally, totally blockchain. 486 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,960 So did you read what Gavin wrote today, 487 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:03,640 his definition of Bitcoin? 488 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:04,760 Yeah, I did. 489 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:06,840 Well, you know, I like Gavin a lot. 490 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,320 And in particular, I love the stuff that he 491 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:10,560 writes on his blog a lot. 492 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:14,320 And just before this, he quotes me directly in my own blog 493 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:15,720 in a previous blog post of his. 494 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,120 So, and I thought that was great. 495 00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:19,520 And I thought what he had to say there 496 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,560 was actually really, really valuable. 497 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:23,960 But I think today's post, I didn't really, 498 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:25,240 I didn't really get it, unfortunately, 499 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,680 because he allows certain things to be defined as Bitcoin 500 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:29,960 that are perhaps not Bitcoin. 501 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,240 So for example, if we changed Bitcoin, 502 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,200 such that every transaction required 503 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,040 a signature from one key, 504 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:39,360 we could do that with a soft fork. 505 00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:41,480 We could say all the transactions are invalid 506 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,360 unless they're signed by, you know, 507 00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:46,640 whatever, Marco Santori's key or something, 508 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,360 you know, or the Fed's key, right? 509 00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:50,360 And then, but his definition would require 510 00:20:50,360 --> 00:20:52,960 that we still call that Bitcoin, 511 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,040 but it would be very different from Bitcoin. 512 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,120 And even if we, this is the other thing, 513 00:20:57,120 --> 00:20:58,720 it was like the empty blocks problem 514 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,080 that you could soft fork down to just empty blocks 515 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:02,320 where there's no transaction. 516 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,080 That's kind of trivial edge case, 517 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,560 but it would still be Bitcoin under his definition. 518 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,920 In parallel, his definition would say 519 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,080 that if all, if we had to change the proof of work 520 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:13,480 for any reason, for example, 521 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,800 that the Chinese government just commandeered 522 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,000 all the mining equipment, 523 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,560 we had to change the proof of work. 524 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,200 That the new thing, we'd have to say, 525 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,200 that's the end of Bitcoin. 526 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,720 Now we have like Bitcoin 2 or something, 527 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:28,720 but it would no longer be Bitcoin 528 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:30,920 according to his definition, 529 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,760 because it did not allow proof of work changes 530 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:35,000 under any circumstances. 531 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:35,840 Yeah. 532 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,680 So it should allow some things 533 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,080 and not allow some other things. 534 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:41,920 Yeah. 535 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:43,680 Well, I mean, so I definitely kind of agree 536 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:44,640 with your point on the second one. 537 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:46,840 The first one, I kind of get where he's coming from 538 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:47,880 because it's still Bitcoin. 539 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:49,720 It's just Bitcoin got really shitty 540 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:51,320 if one of those other things happens. 541 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,600 It's just like, well, you know, it's still Bitcoin, 542 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:55,760 but yeah, you're right. 543 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:57,760 That's one thing I kind of would draw the line on 544 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,400 is the hashing algorithm. 545 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,000 I mean, you never know. 546 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:03,880 Yeah. 547 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:05,440 Well, I mean, it's an interesting question. 548 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:08,840 Like I, it's hard to define, right? 549 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,720 But Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer eCash system 550 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,560 that was created by Satoshi Nakamoto in 2009. 551 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,720 And I think, you know, 552 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,280 we actually did discuss this a little bit. 553 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:28,280 I think it has no definition precisely right now. 554 00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:30,880 And I think one of the things we talked about 555 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,840 at Satoshi Roundtable was the idea of, 556 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:36,920 and this is related to sidechains as well, 557 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:38,000 which is interesting. 558 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,320 The idea of, we didn't quite phrase it in this terms, 559 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,000 but there's like the Linux kernel, you know, 560 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:44,520 and then there's like all the different stuff, 561 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:46,240 the different distributions, right? 562 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:47,640 Like you can have like Ubuntu is different 563 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:48,480 from the kernel, right? 564 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,120 So you have like the kernel, 565 00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:52,760 but then you have the satellites around it 566 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:54,400 that are different. 567 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:55,240 Yeah, exactly. 568 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,080 So one of the things we talked about 569 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:02,480 was could we maybe make Bitcoin core 570 00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:06,080 so we could polish it off 571 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:07,240 and then we could just say, 572 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:08,800 we freeze it and we say, 573 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,120 this is, we're not changing it anymore ever. 574 00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:13,200 And then it has a precise definition 575 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,640 because software is just like, it's never done. 576 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:17,160 And when Satoshi released it, 577 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,040 it would have been unreasonable to expect it 578 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:20,720 to be like finished at that point. 579 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,240 But at one point- 580 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:23,640 That's a weird thought. 581 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:24,480 I've never really- 582 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:25,880 So the idea is- 583 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:27,440 Let's talk about Satoshi. 584 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,360 Let's jump right into Satoshi Roundtable 585 00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:32,120 before we dive into this specific topic. 586 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:33,600 Can you give us a background 587 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,360 of what the Satoshi Roundtable is, first off? 588 00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:40,080 It is Bruce Fenton's clever idea, 589 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:41,240 which is clever, I think, 590 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,560 to organize like a retreat 591 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,760 where people can speak in quasi-privacy, 592 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:49,280 but in like a nice place, 593 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:50,680 have it in a nice place. 594 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,280 And he makes it kind of expensive on purpose, 595 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:54,880 I think, to filter out people 596 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:56,560 who aren't serious about going. 597 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:58,360 So how much was the cost, first off? 598 00:23:58,360 --> 00:24:01,240 Well, theoretically, the out-of-pocket cost is like, 599 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:05,000 I think it's like something like 2.3 grand or something. 600 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,960 So it's like $2,000, $2,500. 601 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,360 Not including airfare, but it includes food. 602 00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:13,160 So like consensus, to put that in perspective, 603 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:14,240 is basically the same cost, 604 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,240 but it didn't include like a hotel, 605 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:17,400 and it did not include food, 606 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,000 and it did not include travel. 607 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:20,680 But it's invite-only, right? 608 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,400 Yeah, Satoshi Roundtable is invite-only, yes. 609 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,320 Okay, so why make it expensive on purpose? 610 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,320 That doesn't make sense. 611 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,640 Because you want it to be, 612 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,320 you want the people who go to be, 613 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,520 have committed something, I think. 614 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:35,640 But I mean, in practice, 615 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,960 almost everyone who goes has their employer pay, I think. 616 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:40,040 But it's the same problem, 617 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:41,600 because the employer can just say, 618 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:42,440 I'm not paying for that. 619 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,320 So this year, where was it? 620 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:45,680 It was in Cancun. 621 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:46,520 Nice, okay. 622 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:47,360 It was in a nice place. 623 00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:48,680 Yeah, I'd never been to Cancun before, 624 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,120 so I enjoyed going. 625 00:24:50,120 --> 00:24:52,420 So, and the secrecy is, 626 00:24:52,420 --> 00:24:53,800 you're not allowed to say who went, 627 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:54,640 or what y'all talked about? 628 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,560 You're not allowed to say what, 629 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,320 you're not allowed to quote people. 630 00:24:58,326 --> 00:24:58,566 A what, you're not allowed to quote people. 631 00:24:58,566 --> 00:25:02,086 Okay, but you can talk about general things. 632 00:25:02,086 --> 00:25:03,526 Yeah, you have to respect, 633 00:25:05,046 --> 00:25:07,806 you have to respect the blindness of the, 634 00:25:08,726 --> 00:25:13,566 of who said what, so you can't attribute anything to anyone. 635 00:25:13,566 --> 00:25:15,446 But you can talk about whatever was said. 636 00:25:15,446 --> 00:25:17,726 In fact, I think you can actually quote people directly, 637 00:25:17,726 --> 00:25:19,046 but you just can't, you can't make it, 638 00:25:19,046 --> 00:25:20,806 you can't reveal who said what. 639 00:25:20,806 --> 00:25:22,406 That's the rule. 640 00:25:22,406 --> 00:25:24,806 Okay, so let's talk about some interesting 641 00:25:25,206 --> 00:25:26,686 conversations that went on. 642 00:25:26,686 --> 00:25:28,686 It's the same rule as scaling Bitcoin, in theory, 643 00:25:28,686 --> 00:25:32,166 but I don't know if that ever works in practice. 644 00:25:32,166 --> 00:25:34,166 Okay, so what do you want to talk about? 645 00:25:36,046 --> 00:25:37,366 How many days was it? 646 00:25:38,486 --> 00:25:41,686 There was like an opening party Monday night, 647 00:25:41,686 --> 00:25:43,246 which is just like a cocktail party. 648 00:25:43,246 --> 00:25:44,846 Basically, it's not like a party party. 649 00:25:44,846 --> 00:25:47,766 And then, there's a Tuesday and Wednesday, 650 00:25:48,726 --> 00:25:51,086 where there's sessions, and then in the, 651 00:25:51,086 --> 00:25:53,246 at the end, people can kind of do whatever they want, 652 00:25:53,286 --> 00:25:54,686 which is mostly more sessions, 653 00:25:54,686 --> 00:25:57,126 but some people did go like water skiing. 654 00:25:57,126 --> 00:25:58,326 I didn't go. 655 00:25:58,326 --> 00:25:59,566 I had a lot of work. 656 00:25:59,566 --> 00:26:03,166 It was mostly work for me, but then, 657 00:26:03,166 --> 00:26:04,046 so you have those two days, 658 00:26:04,046 --> 00:26:05,166 and then what a lot of people do 659 00:26:05,166 --> 00:26:07,686 is they stay the last day, Wednesday night. 660 00:26:07,686 --> 00:26:09,886 So then Thursday, people leave at various times, 661 00:26:09,886 --> 00:26:11,766 but you're still kind of there, 662 00:26:11,766 --> 00:26:13,806 but nothing official on Thursday, so that's how that works. 663 00:26:13,806 --> 00:26:14,646 And that's basically how it works. 664 00:26:14,646 --> 00:26:16,486 So it's kind of like a two-day event. 665 00:26:16,486 --> 00:26:17,326 Yeah, basically. 666 00:26:18,286 --> 00:26:20,846 Okay, and did they have, at the cocktail party, 667 00:26:20,846 --> 00:26:23,646 did they have a naked, a beautiful naked girl 668 00:26:23,646 --> 00:26:25,486 on in-pool paint, like Miami? 669 00:26:25,486 --> 00:26:30,406 Unfortunately, they did not aspire to the levels of, 670 00:26:30,406 --> 00:26:32,686 I mean, I think just South Beach, right? 671 00:26:32,686 --> 00:26:35,246 I think South Beach, they really know how to party there, 672 00:26:35,246 --> 00:26:38,526 and they've received party technologies. 673 00:26:38,526 --> 00:26:40,286 The homeless know how to party, too. 674 00:26:40,286 --> 00:26:41,206 Yeah. 675 00:26:41,206 --> 00:26:45,766 They do, as we discovered, as we discovered a lot. 676 00:26:45,766 --> 00:26:49,806 Okay, so let's talk about Tuesday. 677 00:26:49,806 --> 00:26:52,646 Like, what were some cool conversations? 678 00:26:52,646 --> 00:26:55,766 I mean, I'm sure there's discussions about sidechains, 679 00:26:55,766 --> 00:27:00,326 Drivechains, alt-right chains. 680 00:27:00,326 --> 00:27:02,126 The alt-right, yes. 681 00:27:02,126 --> 00:27:04,086 Well, there was a woman from, 682 00:27:04,086 --> 00:27:06,966 there was a woman in attendance 683 00:27:06,966 --> 00:27:09,886 who was a congresswoman from Wisconsin. 684 00:27:09,886 --> 00:27:13,126 So she spoke a little bit about the administration. 685 00:27:13,126 --> 00:27:15,766 That was quite funny, because as you, 686 00:27:15,766 --> 00:27:18,606 she was talking about policy for this, policy for that, 687 00:27:18,606 --> 00:27:20,366 and she was talking about, like, a blockchain caucus. 688 00:27:20,366 --> 00:27:25,006 But as you might surmise, some people in the audience, 689 00:27:25,006 --> 00:27:26,486 whom I cannot identify, 690 00:27:26,486 --> 00:27:28,966 but some people are very, like, anti-state, 691 00:27:28,966 --> 00:27:30,166 so they were quite surprised 692 00:27:30,166 --> 00:27:32,526 that a congressperson would be there at all, 693 00:27:32,526 --> 00:27:34,686 and some of their faces were amusing to watch 694 00:27:34,686 --> 00:27:37,926 as the conversation wandered into, like, 695 00:27:37,926 --> 00:27:40,966 what laws should we pass for Bitcoin and stuff like that. 696 00:27:40,966 --> 00:27:43,246 That was very amusing to me. 697 00:27:43,246 --> 00:27:44,726 Do you think that's important, first off? 698 00:27:44,726 --> 00:27:46,006 Like, do you think there should be, 699 00:27:46,086 --> 00:27:49,726 what's your opinion about laws and Bitcoin and whatnot? 700 00:27:49,726 --> 00:27:51,726 State by state or country? 701 00:27:51,726 --> 00:27:55,526 It's kind of, you know, the way Bitcoin is designed, 702 00:27:55,526 --> 00:27:57,486 it's designed as peer-to-peer, 703 00:27:57,486 --> 00:27:59,326 so it's supposed to push everything onto the user, 704 00:27:59,326 --> 00:28:03,006 so the user is responsible for everything. 705 00:28:03,006 --> 00:28:06,006 Their keys, the thefts, fraud, 706 00:28:06,006 --> 00:28:07,446 what they spend their money on, 707 00:28:07,446 --> 00:28:10,926 and each user is responsible for the laws that they follow. 708 00:28:10,926 --> 00:28:13,806 And some of that is a little, 709 00:28:14,806 --> 00:28:17,526 like, a lot of the original, I mean, 710 00:28:17,526 --> 00:28:22,046 there are some things that only Bitcoin can do, 711 00:28:22,046 --> 00:28:24,486 and some of those might be crime, 712 00:28:24,486 --> 00:28:26,766 but the issue is really a bigger one 713 00:28:26,766 --> 00:28:29,206 of transaction privacy being non-existent 714 00:28:29,206 --> 00:28:30,046 in the modern world, 715 00:28:30,046 --> 00:28:32,246 which is the cypherpunks mantra 716 00:28:32,246 --> 00:28:35,446 about reclaiming it through cryptography. 717 00:28:35,446 --> 00:28:36,886 So, but to answer your question, 718 00:28:36,886 --> 00:28:39,246 it's like, the design goal of Bitcoin 719 00:28:39,246 --> 00:28:40,926 is to push all that onto the user, 720 00:28:40,926 --> 00:28:43,966 so people can pass laws if they want, 721 00:28:43,966 --> 00:28:48,966 but the law will, I mean, you'll get to decide. 722 00:28:49,366 --> 00:28:52,766 The policy won't be applied at the Bitcoin code level. 723 00:28:52,766 --> 00:28:55,486 It will be at the individual level, so. 724 00:28:55,486 --> 00:28:58,206 Shit, you know what we forgot to talk about 725 00:28:58,206 --> 00:29:01,846 before we dove into Satoshi is Block, 726 00:29:01,846 --> 00:29:03,286 because Block is the one that sponsored you 727 00:29:03,286 --> 00:29:04,646 to go to this event, right? 728 00:29:05,766 --> 00:29:07,286 Well, you know, I put in my expenses. 729 00:29:07,286 --> 00:29:09,006 I don't know how much money I'm gonna get back, 730 00:29:09,006 --> 00:29:11,286 but yeah, I think so, yes. 731 00:29:11,286 --> 00:29:16,286 So, real quick before we jump into, 732 00:29:17,006 --> 00:29:18,926 like what the Congresswoman said or whatever, 733 00:29:18,926 --> 00:29:20,846 can you say, like, when did you join Block, 734 00:29:20,846 --> 00:29:23,086 and did you have another Bitcoin company before that? 735 00:29:23,086 --> 00:29:23,926 Sorry. 736 00:29:23,926 --> 00:29:26,686 No, okay, so to complete the timeline, 737 00:29:26,686 --> 00:29:29,406 so I was in consulting, and then I worked 738 00:29:29,406 --> 00:29:32,826 in the Yale Econ Department in research, 739 00:29:32,826 --> 00:29:36,646 and then Roger Ver hired me away. 740 00:29:36,646 --> 00:29:40,686 So in 2014, early 2014, I published Truthcoin, 741 00:29:40,686 --> 00:29:44,046 would become Bitcoin Hivemind, 742 00:29:44,046 --> 00:29:48,846 and after kind of, you know, 743 00:29:48,846 --> 00:29:51,166 polishing it up a little bit over the years, 744 00:29:51,166 --> 00:29:52,566 I mean, it was really mostly done. 745 00:29:52,566 --> 00:29:53,966 I did most of the work before, 746 00:29:53,966 --> 00:29:55,766 and in 2014, I didn't really do a lot of work, 747 00:29:55,766 --> 00:29:57,606 but I did go in, like, Let's Talk Bitcoin 748 00:29:57,606 --> 00:29:59,046 and a couple other places. 749 00:30:00,446 --> 00:30:01,606 What is Hivemind? 750 00:30:02,606 --> 00:30:04,446 Well, Hivemind is what the peer-to-peer 751 00:30:04,446 --> 00:30:07,686 Oracle prediction market that Truthcoin was originally, 752 00:30:07,686 --> 00:30:09,266 so we can talk about that later, 753 00:30:09,266 --> 00:30:14,266 but Roger hired me in 2015, January, 754 00:30:14,726 --> 00:30:19,726 to work on that, which I did in collaboration 755 00:30:21,166 --> 00:30:24,766 with some other people to kind of bring that up to speed, 756 00:30:24,766 --> 00:30:29,766 and then in March of 2016, I joined Block, 757 00:30:30,606 --> 00:30:34,846 so it was like, almost, I've been there almost a year, 758 00:30:34,846 --> 00:30:35,686 and there are- 759 00:30:35,686 --> 00:30:39,446 Which is you, Jeff Garzik, and who else? 760 00:30:39,446 --> 00:30:41,286 There are, like, 16 people, but I can't- 761 00:30:41,286 --> 00:30:42,126 Oh, okay. 762 00:30:42,126 --> 00:30:43,126 Some of their names, some of them are, like, 763 00:30:43,126 --> 00:30:44,766 not people we would know, 764 00:30:44,766 --> 00:30:46,846 but Andreas Schildbach is there, 765 00:30:46,846 --> 00:30:49,366 who does Bitcoin J, the Android wallet. 766 00:30:49,366 --> 00:30:51,286 Yeah, he did the Android wallet, the Bitcoin wallet. 767 00:30:51,286 --> 00:30:52,126 Yes. 768 00:30:52,126 --> 00:30:52,966 Yeah. 769 00:30:52,966 --> 00:30:55,286 And there are some other people, I mean, 770 00:30:55,286 --> 00:30:57,286 but yeah, some of them are not, like, 771 00:30:57,286 --> 00:30:58,846 so there's, like, a government guy, 772 00:30:58,846 --> 00:31:01,046 there's, like, you know, there's, like, legal people, 773 00:31:01,046 --> 00:31:04,006 so some of them are staff that are not Bitcoin famous, 774 00:31:04,006 --> 00:31:04,846 so you wouldn't know them. 775 00:31:04,846 --> 00:31:06,566 So is that what you do for, like, your livelihood, 776 00:31:06,566 --> 00:31:07,886 is Block, or do you do, like, 777 00:31:07,886 --> 00:31:10,646 other consulting things still on the side? 778 00:31:10,646 --> 00:31:11,966 Do you do, like, all kinds of stuff? 779 00:31:11,966 --> 00:31:12,806 What do you do? 780 00:31:12,806 --> 00:31:13,706 No, I do the same stuff that I was doing before, 781 00:31:13,706 --> 00:31:15,606 which is work on the, 782 00:31:15,606 --> 00:31:18,686 I basically just, like, work on Bitcoin software, 783 00:31:18,686 --> 00:31:21,146 Bitcoin research, Bitcoin software, so, 784 00:31:21,146 --> 00:31:22,686 but what I've been doing at Block 785 00:31:22,686 --> 00:31:25,586 is the Drivechain, two-way peg, 786 00:31:26,886 --> 00:31:28,526 so that's what I've been doing for that, 787 00:31:29,366 --> 00:31:30,766 and I've made a lot of progress in that. 788 00:31:30,766 --> 00:31:32,966 And I guess we can talk about, maybe, 789 00:31:32,966 --> 00:31:35,366 Drivechain and Hivemind throughout, like, the rest. 790 00:31:35,366 --> 00:31:36,206 Okay. 791 00:31:36,206 --> 00:31:38,086 Because that's a big, maybe, big topic, I don't know. 792 00:31:38,086 --> 00:31:40,526 Oh, yeah, whatever you want to do, you can, we're just. 793 00:31:40,526 --> 00:31:43,806 Real quick question about the whole Drivechain thing is, 794 00:31:43,806 --> 00:31:46,446 are you dependent upon anything 795 00:31:46,446 --> 00:31:49,086 for an actual implementation of Drivechains? 796 00:31:49,086 --> 00:31:51,286 Yeah, you need a soft, 797 00:31:51,286 --> 00:31:54,046 you don't need SegWit, you need a soft fork, though. 798 00:31:54,046 --> 00:31:55,286 Or what, exactly? 799 00:31:56,286 --> 00:31:59,046 To enforce the money. 800 00:31:59,046 --> 00:32:01,686 So, sidechains, sidechains are actually easier 801 00:32:01,686 --> 00:32:02,846 than people think. 802 00:32:02,846 --> 00:32:04,526 The benefits are so high that people think 803 00:32:04,526 --> 00:32:07,166 that there must be some correspondingly huge 804 00:32:07,166 --> 00:32:08,486 technical breakthrough. 805 00:32:08,486 --> 00:32:10,726 But, in reality, it's all the same. 806 00:32:10,726 --> 00:32:11,926 It's just, you take an altcoin, 807 00:32:11,926 --> 00:32:13,726 you just say, there's no money there, 808 00:32:13,726 --> 00:32:17,386 and there's no Coinbase block subsidy, right? 809 00:32:17,386 --> 00:32:19,766 So, we're not minting any coins over there. 810 00:32:19,766 --> 00:32:20,606 You take the altcoin. 811 00:32:20,606 --> 00:32:21,486 You understand, the altcoin is, like, 812 00:32:21,486 --> 00:32:22,766 most of the work is already done. 813 00:32:22,766 --> 00:32:24,726 You just need to do some accounting. 814 00:32:24,726 --> 00:32:26,206 So, you say, there's no money over there, 815 00:32:26,206 --> 00:32:29,086 and then people lock bitcoins on the main chain. 816 00:32:29,086 --> 00:32:31,326 They effectively, you know, they take them out of the game. 817 00:32:31,326 --> 00:32:33,246 They basically don't have them anymore. 818 00:32:33,246 --> 00:32:34,806 No one does. 819 00:32:34,806 --> 00:32:36,526 And then, when that happens, 820 00:32:36,526 --> 00:32:38,246 you credit them on the sidechain. 821 00:32:39,286 --> 00:32:42,566 And finally, when they destroy them on the sidechain, 822 00:32:42,566 --> 00:32:43,766 or lock them on the sidechain, 823 00:32:43,766 --> 00:32:45,966 you have to re-credit them on bitcoin. 824 00:32:45,966 --> 00:32:48,666 So, almost all of that is really, really, really easy. 825 00:32:50,166 --> 00:32:51,846 So, real quick about that. 826 00:32:52,006 --> 00:32:53,806 That intermediary Drivechain 827 00:32:53,806 --> 00:32:57,586 that will give bitcoin back to that user. 828 00:32:58,846 --> 00:33:02,686 As far as that soft fork goes, how intrusive is that? 829 00:33:02,686 --> 00:33:03,526 I don't know. 830 00:33:03,526 --> 00:33:04,806 Can you talk a little bit more about? 831 00:33:04,806 --> 00:33:05,646 Yeah. 832 00:33:05,646 --> 00:33:06,766 Let me just switch my thought, though, 833 00:33:06,766 --> 00:33:08,966 which is that almost everything is easy, 834 00:33:08,966 --> 00:33:11,086 except for the crediting of the bitcoin. 835 00:33:11,086 --> 00:33:13,486 Bitcoin has to know who to pay. 836 00:33:13,486 --> 00:33:15,086 And the challenge is to do that 837 00:33:15,086 --> 00:33:18,846 without requiring people to run the entire sidechain, 838 00:33:19,726 --> 00:33:21,406 which would make it more like 839 00:33:21,406 --> 00:33:26,406 a really, really complicated soft fork extension block, 840 00:33:26,526 --> 00:33:28,006 or just an outright hard fork, 841 00:33:28,006 --> 00:33:30,406 because you'd be adding all these resource requirements. 842 00:33:30,406 --> 00:33:33,166 You'd be saying, you need to run all this stuff 843 00:33:33,166 --> 00:33:35,966 in order to figure out if this one payment is right. 844 00:33:35,966 --> 00:33:36,966 So, the trick is to do it 845 00:33:36,966 --> 00:33:41,326 without really burdening anyone at all. 846 00:33:41,326 --> 00:33:42,886 So, it's kind of a challenge, 847 00:33:42,886 --> 00:33:46,646 but that is what the soft fork is for. 848 00:33:46,686 --> 00:33:49,726 The rules on how to pay people correctly, 849 00:33:49,726 --> 00:33:52,206 but not too correctly, so to speak. 850 00:33:52,206 --> 00:33:54,366 They don't want, you know, without requiring. 851 00:33:54,366 --> 00:33:56,926 So, we have this bridge that condenses 852 00:33:56,926 --> 00:33:59,046 the entire operation of the chain 853 00:33:59,046 --> 00:34:02,526 over a few months into just one transaction. 854 00:34:02,526 --> 00:34:04,686 And you gotta get that one transaction right. 855 00:34:04,686 --> 00:34:06,046 That's the soft fork. 856 00:34:06,046 --> 00:34:09,006 But you don't have to get anything else right. 857 00:34:10,206 --> 00:34:12,806 So, what happens if and when 858 00:34:12,806 --> 00:34:14,726 Lightning Network gets implemented? 859 00:34:14,766 --> 00:34:16,686 Does that take away the need 860 00:34:16,686 --> 00:34:18,486 for like a lot of these alt coins? 861 00:34:19,406 --> 00:34:20,446 What do you think? 862 00:34:20,446 --> 00:34:21,286 As far as the- 863 00:34:21,286 --> 00:34:22,126 No, I don't think so. 864 00:34:22,126 --> 00:34:24,606 Lightning is awesome, of course. 865 00:34:24,606 --> 00:34:26,326 And Lightning and sidechains work together. 866 00:34:26,326 --> 00:34:28,366 And Lightning and alt coins work together, 867 00:34:28,366 --> 00:34:30,246 because you can Lightning across sidechains, 868 00:34:30,246 --> 00:34:32,406 and you can also Lightning across alt coins, 869 00:34:32,406 --> 00:34:34,966 which is actually really cool, because- 870 00:34:34,966 --> 00:34:35,806 Yeah. 871 00:34:35,806 --> 00:34:36,966 Interesting. 872 00:34:36,966 --> 00:34:38,646 Yeah, it's really, really neat. 873 00:34:38,646 --> 00:34:41,086 So, they're trying to link up Zcash 874 00:34:41,086 --> 00:34:42,486 with another one right now. 875 00:34:42,486 --> 00:34:43,326 Ethereum. 876 00:34:43,646 --> 00:34:44,846 Ethereum, that's right. 877 00:34:44,846 --> 00:34:47,446 Zcash Ethereum. 878 00:34:47,446 --> 00:34:48,406 Yeah. 879 00:34:48,406 --> 00:34:51,366 Yeah, I mean, I think sidechains do a lot of things. 880 00:34:52,646 --> 00:34:54,806 And if you go to drivechain.info, we can read them all. 881 00:34:54,806 --> 00:34:56,606 So, why don't I just read them all? 882 00:34:57,726 --> 00:34:59,566 I don't want to read them in the wrong order. 883 00:35:01,566 --> 00:35:02,406 So, here we go. 884 00:35:02,406 --> 00:35:04,126 So, number one, permissionless integration. 885 00:35:04,126 --> 00:35:06,406 So, anyone can develop and run their own code 886 00:35:06,406 --> 00:35:09,686 without facing the near impossible task 887 00:35:09,686 --> 00:35:12,966 of also bootstrapping a new unit of money. 888 00:35:13,606 --> 00:35:14,886 So, you see, if you've got a great idea, 889 00:35:14,886 --> 00:35:16,926 you've got to compete with Bitcoin 890 00:35:16,926 --> 00:35:19,166 as far as monetary network goes. 891 00:35:19,166 --> 00:35:20,126 You're kind of screwed. 892 00:35:20,126 --> 00:35:21,766 I mean, that's really hard. 893 00:35:21,766 --> 00:35:23,366 But then- 894 00:35:23,366 --> 00:35:24,206 Yes? 895 00:35:24,206 --> 00:35:28,246 I was going to say, how does this stack up? 896 00:35:28,246 --> 00:35:29,926 I'm thinking, like, maybe some kind of weird 897 00:35:29,926 --> 00:35:32,366 Lightning network counterparty token. 898 00:35:32,366 --> 00:35:34,806 I mean, is that kind of like what a Drivechain 899 00:35:34,806 --> 00:35:37,486 would give you access to? 900 00:35:37,486 --> 00:35:39,206 Or, sorry, to alt coins? 901 00:35:41,086 --> 00:35:42,326 I don't know, maybe that was a weird question. 902 00:35:42,726 --> 00:35:43,566 I don't understand your question at all. 903 00:35:43,566 --> 00:35:46,086 You merged, you mixed three different things. 904 00:35:46,086 --> 00:35:46,926 So, what's the- 905 00:35:46,926 --> 00:35:48,446 I'm thinking, like, if you have the token idea 906 00:35:48,446 --> 00:35:49,846 through counterparty, right? 907 00:35:50,726 --> 00:35:51,566 Yes, yeah. 908 00:35:51,566 --> 00:35:56,566 And then, the problem between counterparty, 909 00:35:56,766 --> 00:35:59,806 like, you know, your counterparty tokens in Bitcoin 910 00:35:59,806 --> 00:36:01,566 is you need to exchange. 911 00:36:01,566 --> 00:36:03,566 Well, counterparty's proof of burn. 912 00:36:03,566 --> 00:36:05,126 It's totally different. 913 00:36:05,126 --> 00:36:06,446 No, I, yeah. 914 00:36:06,446 --> 00:36:08,126 It's subtle. 915 00:36:08,126 --> 00:36:09,886 Okay, I'm trying to get to your, 916 00:36:09,886 --> 00:36:12,126 I'm trying to mine into your head 917 00:36:12,126 --> 00:36:14,006 and get what you're trying to say out, 918 00:36:14,006 --> 00:36:15,406 rip it out of your head. 919 00:36:15,406 --> 00:36:16,446 I think you're saying something like 920 00:36:16,446 --> 00:36:18,246 counterparty already has all the other tokens. 921 00:36:18,246 --> 00:36:20,086 I'm just throwing a bunch of words at you. 922 00:36:20,086 --> 00:36:21,646 I just want to see how you react. 923 00:36:21,646 --> 00:36:23,526 You are throwing a bunch of words at me. 924 00:36:23,526 --> 00:36:24,846 I agree with you there. 925 00:36:24,846 --> 00:36:26,206 So, I have a question. 926 00:36:26,206 --> 00:36:28,686 How would you distinguish Drivechains 927 00:36:28,686 --> 00:36:31,246 from the definition of a Drivechain 928 00:36:31,246 --> 00:36:33,566 from the normal definition of just a regular sidechain? 929 00:36:33,566 --> 00:36:35,766 Okay, but you realize that we did actually start 930 00:36:35,766 --> 00:36:38,766 on one thing, which was, what is a sidechain? 931 00:36:38,766 --> 00:36:41,366 And then we switched to benefits of sidechains. 932 00:36:41,366 --> 00:36:42,206 And then we switched to, 933 00:36:42,206 --> 00:36:44,406 is Lightning Network plus counterparty 934 00:36:44,406 --> 00:36:45,766 similar to what Drivechain gives you? 935 00:36:45,766 --> 00:36:47,726 And now you just switched again to. 936 00:36:47,726 --> 00:36:49,406 Oh, what's a blockchain? 937 00:36:49,406 --> 00:36:50,686 Yeah, I know. 938 00:36:50,686 --> 00:36:51,846 Okay, okay. 939 00:36:51,846 --> 00:36:53,606 We are actually, we are branching off. 940 00:36:53,606 --> 00:36:55,166 I feel bad just, I mean, I can handle it, 941 00:36:55,166 --> 00:36:56,486 but I feel bad for your listeners. 942 00:36:56,486 --> 00:37:01,486 I don't know what they're going to get out of this web. 943 00:37:02,646 --> 00:37:04,046 So, I mean, I don't know where, 944 00:37:04,046 --> 00:37:05,046 do we want to go in reverse? 945 00:37:05,046 --> 00:37:06,766 Or I think let's just. 946 00:37:06,766 --> 00:37:07,646 Let's keep going. 947 00:37:07,846 --> 00:37:09,686 You're talking about the benefits of drive. 948 00:37:09,686 --> 00:37:11,366 Okay, yeah, so first of all, 949 00:37:11,366 --> 00:37:14,606 I'll just say a sidechain is like an alt chain, 950 00:37:14,606 --> 00:37:16,086 but it doesn't have its own token. 951 00:37:16,086 --> 00:37:17,566 So this is kind of related to what you were saying, 952 00:37:17,566 --> 00:37:19,366 Mike Tidwell, you're both named Mike. 953 00:37:19,366 --> 00:37:24,366 So I don't know if this is a joke of the podcast or not, 954 00:37:24,646 --> 00:37:27,086 but I can't call one of you Mike, I'll just be confused. 955 00:37:27,086 --> 00:37:29,766 But you, in order to, since there's no token, 956 00:37:31,406 --> 00:37:35,326 the alt chain inherently, you deposit your Bitcoin there, 957 00:37:35,326 --> 00:37:36,326 and then you use it there. 958 00:37:36,326 --> 00:37:39,406 And then if you want to, you withdraw the Bitcoin back. 959 00:37:39,406 --> 00:37:41,726 So that's what a sidechain is. 960 00:37:41,726 --> 00:37:44,046 And so the total number of Bitcoin units 961 00:37:44,046 --> 00:37:45,446 is fixed at 21 million. 962 00:37:45,446 --> 00:37:47,726 So you don't have to worry about this new 963 00:37:47,726 --> 00:37:48,886 unit of money thing, 964 00:37:48,886 --> 00:37:50,086 which is the first point I brought up. 965 00:37:50,086 --> 00:37:52,646 And the second point I brought up is the converse point, 966 00:37:52,646 --> 00:37:56,366 which is that you not only do now not need to worry 967 00:37:56,366 --> 00:37:57,686 about bootstrapping your own money, 968 00:37:57,686 --> 00:38:00,446 but since you can't, it filters out a lot of scams 969 00:38:00,446 --> 00:38:03,486 because you can't print your own money and get rich. 970 00:38:03,486 --> 00:38:05,446 No matter how great your tech is, 971 00:38:05,446 --> 00:38:07,086 you don't get anything for it at all. 972 00:38:07,086 --> 00:38:09,686 The people who own their Bitcoin just get to use it, 973 00:38:09,686 --> 00:38:10,966 which I actually think is a good thing. 974 00:38:10,966 --> 00:38:12,446 So some people disagree about that, 975 00:38:12,446 --> 00:38:14,726 but I think it's a great thing because I think, 976 00:38:14,726 --> 00:38:16,366 you know, when people contribute to open source, 977 00:38:16,366 --> 00:38:21,166 it's better for them to have a purer motivation. 978 00:38:21,166 --> 00:38:22,846 And I think there'll always be people, 979 00:38:22,846 --> 00:38:25,846 like a lot of people, businesses hire core devs, 980 00:38:25,846 --> 00:38:28,406 not enough, but a lot of places hire core devs, 981 00:38:28,406 --> 00:38:30,606 including Block and including Blockstream, 982 00:38:30,606 --> 00:38:32,126 and including people like Roger Ver. 983 00:38:32,126 --> 00:38:34,966 So people will, and MIT as well. 984 00:38:35,646 --> 00:38:36,606 So there are people who will, 985 00:38:36,606 --> 00:38:38,686 no, you were already four tangents in. 986 00:38:40,246 --> 00:38:41,526 Write it down on a piece of paper 987 00:38:41,526 --> 00:38:44,806 and we'll get back to it after the tangents. 988 00:38:44,806 --> 00:38:48,086 So then Bitcoin eliminates competitors 989 00:38:48,086 --> 00:38:50,446 because Bitcoin can just copy any code. 990 00:38:50,446 --> 00:38:53,966 And then the other thing is that sidechains allow people, 991 00:38:53,966 --> 00:38:55,806 or Drivechain, you know, specifically, 992 00:38:55,806 --> 00:38:58,646 allows people to opt in to the software code 993 00:38:58,646 --> 00:38:59,526 that they want to run. 994 00:38:59,526 --> 00:39:03,126 So if they want to run like a larger block size, 995 00:39:03,166 --> 00:39:06,686 or if they want to run Monero or weird zk-SNARK stuff, 996 00:39:06,686 --> 00:39:08,686 they can, and it doesn't have to bother anyone else. 997 00:39:08,686 --> 00:39:11,486 So that's a big deal because currently it's like a, 998 00:39:11,486 --> 00:39:14,846 sort of a socialist, one size fits all thing 999 00:39:14,846 --> 00:39:16,606 that we have to all agree on. 1000 00:39:16,606 --> 00:39:20,206 And that is rough, that's very difficult to do. 1001 00:39:20,206 --> 00:39:22,486 And finally allows faster testing. 1002 00:39:22,486 --> 00:39:24,246 So those are benefits of sidechains. 1003 00:39:24,246 --> 00:39:25,766 I don't know if we answered your question about, 1004 00:39:25,766 --> 00:39:29,406 is a counterparty plus lightning similar to a sidechain? 1005 00:39:29,406 --> 00:39:30,726 I don't know, maybe we'll get back to it. 1006 00:39:30,726 --> 00:39:31,566 I don't know. 1007 00:39:31,566 --> 00:39:32,726 That's a valid question, Paul. 1008 00:39:32,726 --> 00:39:33,566 You don't have to answer it. 1009 00:39:33,566 --> 00:39:35,286 Me either, and then. 1010 00:39:35,286 --> 00:39:36,646 It might be a trick question. 1011 00:39:36,646 --> 00:39:38,926 It might indeed, I don't know, it probably was. 1012 00:39:38,926 --> 00:39:42,486 So, it's certainly tricking me. 1013 00:39:42,486 --> 00:39:43,766 And then you were asking about, 1014 00:39:43,766 --> 00:39:45,446 what is the difference between Drivechain 1015 00:39:45,446 --> 00:39:48,166 and traditional sidechains? 1016 00:39:48,166 --> 00:39:51,846 So people like to call the Drivechain sidechains, 1017 00:39:51,846 --> 00:39:53,926 they like to just call them Drivechains, 1018 00:39:53,926 --> 00:39:55,286 even though that's not really what I had in mind. 1019 00:39:55,286 --> 00:39:57,206 But I think I'm just gonna allow it to happen 1020 00:39:57,206 --> 00:39:59,046 because they are actually quite different. 1021 00:39:59,086 --> 00:40:01,886 Blockstream originally planned this thing, 1022 00:40:01,886 --> 00:40:04,406 which is like with the skip list. 1023 00:40:04,406 --> 00:40:06,246 And the skip list was very interesting 1024 00:40:06,246 --> 00:40:09,406 because it kept track of the total work of both chains by, 1025 00:40:09,406 --> 00:40:10,806 and then it minimized that by, 1026 00:40:10,806 --> 00:40:12,486 but they kept track of the total work of both chains 1027 00:40:12,486 --> 00:40:14,886 by basically counting all the headers. 1028 00:40:14,886 --> 00:40:16,046 But that would be absurd 1029 00:40:16,046 --> 00:40:19,806 because that would mean each transaction right now, 1030 00:40:19,806 --> 00:40:21,646 the Bitcoin blockchain grows by, I can't remember, 1031 00:40:21,646 --> 00:40:23,566 but it's something like four megabytes per year 1032 00:40:23,566 --> 00:40:25,726 in the headers, headers only, 1033 00:40:25,766 --> 00:40:29,606 because the header is only 80 bytes, six headers per hour. 1034 00:40:29,606 --> 00:40:31,006 So we can multiply, I don't know, 1035 00:40:31,006 --> 00:40:32,526 maybe I could do it in my head, I don't know. 1036 00:40:32,526 --> 00:40:34,246 I'm not sure, I don't really wanna try, 1037 00:40:34,246 --> 00:40:37,246 but six per hour, 24 per hour. 1038 00:40:37,246 --> 00:40:42,246 So it's like 120 something per day times 52, 1039 00:40:44,126 --> 00:40:47,286 sorry, times 300 days. 1040 00:40:47,286 --> 00:40:49,086 So yeah, 365 days. 1041 00:40:49,086 --> 00:40:51,126 So yeah, it's basically like four megabytes. 1042 00:40:51,126 --> 00:40:53,246 So it's 80 bytes, about 4,000. 1043 00:40:53,246 --> 00:40:57,726 So it's like four megabytes per year that the headers grow. 1044 00:40:57,726 --> 00:40:59,806 But if you wanted to do that, you'd have to add, 1045 00:40:59,806 --> 00:41:01,766 that would be annoying because you think that right now, 1046 00:41:01,766 --> 00:41:04,926 the entire block can only fit one megabyte, right? 1047 00:41:04,926 --> 00:41:06,126 So you can't have a transaction 1048 00:41:06,126 --> 00:41:08,566 that contains four megabytes worth of headers. 1049 00:41:08,566 --> 00:41:10,806 So a Blockstream came up with, 1050 00:41:10,806 --> 00:41:13,486 in their paper is this innovative way of saying, 1051 00:41:13,486 --> 00:41:15,806 okay, actually you don't need all the headers, 1052 00:41:15,806 --> 00:41:19,246 you only need a very small amount of the headers. 1053 00:41:19,246 --> 00:41:21,166 But still they have a bunch of headers 1054 00:41:21,966 --> 00:41:25,006 dumped into their transaction to do the SPV proof. 1055 00:41:25,006 --> 00:41:26,326 And I don't do anything like that at all. 1056 00:41:26,326 --> 00:41:27,326 I do a totally different thing. 1057 00:41:27,326 --> 00:41:30,606 So, but so there's a different thing. 1058 00:41:30,606 --> 00:41:33,046 And in fact, they use those headers 1059 00:41:33,046 --> 00:41:35,526 to assert the work done on the sidechain. 1060 00:41:35,526 --> 00:41:37,966 And I actually use my headers to assert 1061 00:41:37,966 --> 00:41:42,126 that enough work has been done on the main chain, 1062 00:41:42,126 --> 00:41:43,246 the parent chain, 1063 00:41:43,246 --> 00:41:45,806 which is actually a really important difference 1064 00:41:45,806 --> 00:41:48,086 because you have these, 1065 00:41:49,086 --> 00:41:54,006 it sidechains open the door to a lot of complexity 1066 00:41:54,006 --> 00:41:57,286 and teamwork among different smart contracts 1067 00:41:57,286 --> 00:41:58,606 and different sidechains. 1068 00:41:58,606 --> 00:42:00,486 But they also open the door to like smart contracts 1069 00:42:00,486 --> 00:42:01,846 that are just deliberately designed 1070 00:42:01,846 --> 00:42:04,446 to attack one smart contract. 1071 00:42:04,446 --> 00:42:07,006 In particular, Gavin and others and myself 1072 00:42:07,006 --> 00:42:08,926 and Vitalik and everyone agree 1073 00:42:08,926 --> 00:42:11,526 that almost all the really cool smart contracts 1074 00:42:11,526 --> 00:42:13,406 require data from outside, 1075 00:42:13,406 --> 00:42:15,646 they require the Oracle problem. 1076 00:42:15,646 --> 00:42:18,366 And I did a whole bunch of writing 1077 00:42:18,366 --> 00:42:20,686 and a presentation on the fact 1078 00:42:20,686 --> 00:42:22,526 that the Oracle problem can't be solved 1079 00:42:22,526 --> 00:42:23,646 if you have like open, 1080 00:42:23,646 --> 00:42:25,326 totally open-ended smart contracts 1081 00:42:25,326 --> 00:42:27,486 because they're vulnerable to invasion 1082 00:42:27,486 --> 00:42:30,726 by other smart contracts that just skim on them. 1083 00:42:30,726 --> 00:42:32,326 And so there's no equilibrium 1084 00:42:32,326 --> 00:42:34,206 with like good smart contracts. 1085 00:42:34,206 --> 00:42:36,326 So it's important long story short 1086 00:42:36,326 --> 00:42:41,326 that the main chain be able to veto the sidechains. 1087 00:42:42,486 --> 00:42:45,326 So they shouldn't be able to veto individual transactions, 1088 00:42:46,006 --> 00:42:50,886 but on the level of category, like the theme, 1089 00:42:50,886 --> 00:42:53,086 if you say this is a smart contract, 1090 00:42:53,086 --> 00:42:54,606 or this is a sidechain for gambling, 1091 00:42:54,606 --> 00:42:57,366 or this is a sidechain for Namecoin, 1092 00:42:58,406 --> 00:43:02,926 it is important that the miners pick a portfolio 1093 00:43:02,926 --> 00:43:03,846 of stuff that they like. 1094 00:43:03,846 --> 00:43:05,766 And that's kind of really confusing. 1095 00:43:05,766 --> 00:43:07,406 So a metaphor I use to explain that 1096 00:43:07,406 --> 00:43:10,966 is that the CEO has to be able to fire employees. 1097 00:43:10,966 --> 00:43:14,166 So if you wanna have a big complex organization, 1098 00:43:14,246 --> 00:43:18,126 you can't just let anyone work there 1099 00:43:18,126 --> 00:43:19,406 because you'll get people who work there 1100 00:43:19,406 --> 00:43:22,166 who like copy each other's work or something like that, 1101 00:43:22,166 --> 00:43:24,166 which demotivates the other employees 1102 00:43:24,166 --> 00:43:27,446 or just makes them unwilling to work or something. 1103 00:43:27,446 --> 00:43:29,486 So if you hired people who are salesmen 1104 00:43:29,486 --> 00:43:30,786 and they were paid on commission 1105 00:43:30,786 --> 00:43:32,926 and the sales process was really involved, 1106 00:43:33,886 --> 00:43:35,046 one salesman does a lot of work, 1107 00:43:35,046 --> 00:43:36,486 but then another salesman shows up 1108 00:43:36,486 --> 00:43:39,806 and kind of steals the sale at the last minute, 1109 00:43:39,806 --> 00:43:41,686 you gotta be able to fire those people. 1110 00:43:41,686 --> 00:43:43,126 Okay, so how do you fire someone? 1111 00:43:43,126 --> 00:43:43,966 Can you talk about that? 1112 00:43:43,966 --> 00:43:45,566 Well, it's simple, the sidechain, 1113 00:43:45,566 --> 00:43:49,406 I just allow, it's the mainchain work. 1114 00:43:49,406 --> 00:43:50,526 And it ultimately doesn't matter 1115 00:43:50,526 --> 00:43:51,886 because it's using merge mining anyway, 1116 00:43:51,886 --> 00:43:52,706 and I can talk about that. 1117 00:43:52,706 --> 00:43:53,546 So the mainchain miners 1118 00:43:53,546 --> 00:43:55,206 and the sidechain miners are the same. 1119 00:43:55,206 --> 00:43:58,286 But the mainchain miners have to be able to basically, 1120 00:43:58,286 --> 00:44:01,166 they have to be the ones who destroy the sidechain. 1121 00:44:01,166 --> 00:44:03,046 So does that just mean you stop mining? 1122 00:44:03,046 --> 00:44:05,166 Is that how you fire that sidechain? 1123 00:44:05,166 --> 00:44:07,846 Yeah, so I mean, in practice, it would never come to this, 1124 00:44:07,846 --> 00:44:10,406 but the miners can assert anything they want 1125 00:44:10,406 --> 00:44:11,886 when they withdraw from the sidechain. 1126 00:44:11,886 --> 00:44:14,926 So they can just steal all the money. 1127 00:44:14,926 --> 00:44:18,646 So what they would do is they'd say, fix the code, 1128 00:44:18,646 --> 00:44:20,926 the code is really misbehaving, 1129 00:44:21,886 --> 00:44:23,526 or we'll just, or else, 1130 00:44:23,526 --> 00:44:25,166 and the or else is that they'll steal, 1131 00:44:25,166 --> 00:44:26,366 but it would never actually come to that 1132 00:44:26,366 --> 00:44:27,206 because no one would do that 1133 00:44:27,206 --> 00:44:28,246 because no one would even deposit. 1134 00:44:28,246 --> 00:44:29,646 I mean, so many things would have to go wrong 1135 00:44:29,646 --> 00:44:30,846 just to even get to that point. 1136 00:44:30,846 --> 00:44:34,006 But you need to have this threat at the end of the road 1137 00:44:34,006 --> 00:44:37,246 in order to enforce all of that retroactively. 1138 00:44:37,246 --> 00:44:39,886 So talk about the incentive structure of all this, 1139 00:44:39,886 --> 00:44:42,086 actually, that's the most interesting to me. 1140 00:44:43,046 --> 00:44:45,526 Yeah, well, it is interesting, I think. 1141 00:44:45,526 --> 00:44:49,886 The sidechains are kind of secured by popularity, I think. 1142 00:44:49,886 --> 00:44:52,526 So it's like if you want, it's like a business, right? 1143 00:44:52,526 --> 00:44:54,886 A business is secured by popularity in a way. 1144 00:44:54,886 --> 00:44:56,726 If the customers like it, 1145 00:44:56,726 --> 00:45:00,846 they shop there and they spend money there. 1146 00:45:00,846 --> 00:45:04,106 And so it's very kind of a classically econ type thing, 1147 00:45:04,106 --> 00:45:07,566 but it's the sidechains have all these transaction fees. 1148 00:45:08,166 --> 00:45:10,486 Can't companies, wait, hold on, back to that analogy. 1149 00:45:10,486 --> 00:45:13,046 Can't companies not be popular and still be profitable 1150 00:45:13,046 --> 00:45:14,806 because people just need them? 1151 00:45:14,806 --> 00:45:15,646 So- 1152 00:45:15,646 --> 00:45:18,046 Well, it's the same thing, I don't think it's the same. 1153 00:45:18,046 --> 00:45:19,086 I define it the same way. 1154 00:45:19,086 --> 00:45:21,886 So if people hate the sidechain, but they still need it, 1155 00:45:21,886 --> 00:45:24,026 then I define that as popularity. 1156 00:45:24,026 --> 00:45:26,886 But whatever that is, whatever that is. 1157 00:45:26,886 --> 00:45:31,326 So the sidechain is used and it generates transaction fees. 1158 00:45:31,326 --> 00:45:35,766 But another thing it does is it makes Bitcoin more valuable. 1159 00:45:35,766 --> 00:45:37,006 And as a group, 1160 00:45:37,006 --> 00:45:39,486 the sidechains make Bitcoin more valuable in theory, 1161 00:45:39,486 --> 00:45:40,526 because you can have like, 1162 00:45:40,526 --> 00:45:42,886 people want like a Mimblewimble sidechain. 1163 00:45:42,886 --> 00:45:47,446 They want like a Rootstock sidechain, 1164 00:45:47,446 --> 00:45:48,406 or at least people think they do. 1165 00:45:48,406 --> 00:45:49,406 I don't really think they do, 1166 00:45:49,406 --> 00:45:51,566 but people want like a gambling sidechain. 1167 00:45:51,566 --> 00:45:53,126 People want playgrounds. 1168 00:45:53,126 --> 00:45:54,486 Name, yeah, right, Namecoin. 1169 00:45:54,486 --> 00:45:55,606 People want the freedom. 1170 00:45:55,606 --> 00:45:57,646 If something happens to the current dev community, 1171 00:45:57,646 --> 00:45:59,406 they want to be able to opt out 1172 00:45:59,406 --> 00:46:01,166 or opt into something else. 1173 00:46:01,166 --> 00:46:03,206 They want larger blocks in general. 1174 00:46:03,206 --> 00:46:05,046 They want, there's actually a big, 1175 00:46:05,166 --> 00:46:06,406 I made like a big little list 1176 00:46:06,406 --> 00:46:08,486 and I was actually impressed with how long it actually got. 1177 00:46:08,486 --> 00:46:09,326 Let's talk about the list, 1178 00:46:09,326 --> 00:46:12,206 because so far all I've heard is transactions. 1179 00:46:12,206 --> 00:46:14,046 I have a quick question. 1180 00:46:14,046 --> 00:46:15,486 How long does it take, 1181 00:46:15,486 --> 00:46:18,846 how long do you have coins locked between, 1182 00:46:18,846 --> 00:46:21,646 from the main chain to a Drivechain and vice versa? 1183 00:46:21,646 --> 00:46:22,606 What's the delay? 1184 00:46:22,606 --> 00:46:26,566 Yeah, so when it's going to the Drivechain, it's short. 1185 00:46:26,566 --> 00:46:28,686 It's like six or 10 blocks. 1186 00:46:28,686 --> 00:46:31,366 It doesn't really matter, but it's short because you just, 1187 00:46:31,366 --> 00:46:33,406 and it doesn't actually matter if there's a reorg, 1188 00:46:33,406 --> 00:46:37,406 because the way the merge mining works in particular, 1189 00:46:37,406 --> 00:46:40,526 in this case, even if it reorgs, everything will be fine. 1190 00:46:40,526 --> 00:46:42,566 But what the reorg would do is it would like, 1191 00:46:42,566 --> 00:46:44,766 it would, every reorg of the main chain 1192 00:46:44,766 --> 00:46:47,886 would force the sidechain to also reorg. 1193 00:46:47,886 --> 00:46:49,486 So you just kind of want like a little buffer there 1194 00:46:49,486 --> 00:46:51,086 just to be safe. 1195 00:46:51,086 --> 00:46:52,406 So that's fast. 1196 00:46:52,406 --> 00:46:54,406 And then coming back, it's very, very slow. 1197 00:46:54,406 --> 00:46:56,846 It's like two to three months, 1198 00:46:56,846 --> 00:46:58,926 because there's no reason, believe it or not, 1199 00:46:58,926 --> 00:47:00,806 there's no reason to make it fast. 1200 00:47:00,806 --> 00:47:02,446 And so, but there's every reason. 1201 00:47:02,526 --> 00:47:05,526 And then you end up with exchanges, right? 1202 00:47:05,526 --> 00:47:07,846 There probably would be a floating price, 1203 00:47:07,846 --> 00:47:10,526 but the price would not co-vary with the, 1204 00:47:10,526 --> 00:47:13,806 this is a really important part that like some people 1205 00:47:13,806 --> 00:47:15,966 who may be named Eric Voorhees, 1206 00:47:15,966 --> 00:47:19,006 like refuse to understand and like constantly- 1207 00:47:19,006 --> 00:47:20,646 That's one of our best sponsors, Mike. 1208 00:47:20,646 --> 00:47:22,286 Okay, well, sorry to hear that. 1209 00:47:23,846 --> 00:47:26,366 Well, there's a few different things. 1210 00:47:26,366 --> 00:47:29,066 The price will not co-vary with, 1211 00:47:29,826 --> 00:47:32,306 um, the price will not co-vary 1212 00:47:32,306 --> 00:47:35,266 with the monetary aspects of the currency, 1213 00:47:35,266 --> 00:47:37,426 like how many people are using it as money, 1214 00:47:37,426 --> 00:47:39,346 and it will not co-vary with the features. 1215 00:47:39,346 --> 00:47:42,226 It only co-varies with the time preference. 1216 00:47:42,226 --> 00:47:44,826 So it will not co-vary at all. 1217 00:47:44,826 --> 00:47:46,586 It'll just be, what? 1218 00:47:46,586 --> 00:47:47,666 Co-vary? 1219 00:47:47,666 --> 00:47:48,506 Yeah, co-variance. 1220 00:47:48,506 --> 00:47:49,706 Something that varies with- 1221 00:47:49,706 --> 00:47:51,066 I'm actually retarded. 1222 00:47:51,066 --> 00:47:51,906 What does that mean? 1223 00:47:51,906 --> 00:47:53,746 Something that varies with something else. 1224 00:47:53,746 --> 00:47:55,746 Oh, okay. 1225 00:47:55,746 --> 00:47:57,346 Like height and weight co-vary. 1226 00:47:57,346 --> 00:47:58,666 Yeah. 1227 00:47:59,186 --> 00:48:00,026 I wasn't planning on learning things today. 1228 00:48:00,026 --> 00:48:00,866 Wait, wait, wait, wait. 1229 00:48:00,866 --> 00:48:02,706 So say that one more time, though. 1230 00:48:02,706 --> 00:48:04,466 Sorry, I got a little distracted. 1231 00:48:04,466 --> 00:48:08,226 So the price will be a function of the inconvenience 1232 00:48:08,226 --> 00:48:09,306 of sending the money back, 1233 00:48:09,306 --> 00:48:11,546 but it won't be a function of anything else. 1234 00:48:11,546 --> 00:48:13,626 And it may also be a function of like the risk, 1235 00:48:13,626 --> 00:48:16,226 but hopefully the risk will be zero, but you never know. 1236 00:48:16,226 --> 00:48:18,026 Well, just to me, it sounds like it's more convenient 1237 00:48:18,026 --> 00:48:18,986 from a time standpoint. 1238 00:48:18,986 --> 00:48:21,786 So if you want to hop in and out, I mean- 1239 00:48:21,786 --> 00:48:23,986 The interesting thing, if you want an interest rate, 1240 00:48:23,986 --> 00:48:25,346 if you want to earn an interest rate, 1241 00:48:25,346 --> 00:48:27,026 what you could do is you could say, 1242 00:48:27,026 --> 00:48:28,986 okay, I've got a bunch of main chain Bitcoin. 1243 00:48:28,986 --> 00:48:31,546 I'll swap you for them if you've got sidechains. 1244 00:48:32,426 --> 00:48:33,906 So you've got four Bitcoin 1245 00:48:33,906 --> 00:48:38,466 and someone else has got 4.1 Bitcoin on the Drivechain. 1246 00:48:38,466 --> 00:48:39,786 And you say, okay, we'll swap. 1247 00:48:39,786 --> 00:48:41,506 You do the atomic swap where you lock it 1248 00:48:41,506 --> 00:48:42,946 based on the hash of R. 1249 00:48:42,946 --> 00:48:46,026 And then someone reveals R and they both go through. 1250 00:48:46,026 --> 00:48:49,146 So you've swapped four on the main 1251 00:48:49,146 --> 00:48:51,866 for 4.1 on the Drivechain, the sidechain. 1252 00:48:53,226 --> 00:48:54,386 Would that be the fee? 1253 00:48:55,266 --> 00:48:58,346 Yeah, the 1.1 would be your fee personally. 1254 00:48:58,346 --> 00:49:00,346 So there would be market competition for this. 1255 00:49:00,346 --> 00:49:02,666 And so then you would say, I'll bring it back 1256 00:49:02,666 --> 00:49:04,546 and it'll take two or three months. 1257 00:49:04,546 --> 00:49:08,226 You'd bring it back and your money would be locked up. 1258 00:49:08,226 --> 00:49:10,906 You had four main chain Bitcoin, 1259 00:49:10,906 --> 00:49:12,706 but now instead you just got like an IOU 1260 00:49:12,706 --> 00:49:15,746 that's worth 4.1 Bitcoin in two or three months. 1261 00:49:15,746 --> 00:49:17,626 So you earned like a little interest rate there. 1262 00:49:17,626 --> 00:49:18,906 So there would be, in my opinion, 1263 00:49:18,906 --> 00:49:20,466 there would be like investment banker types 1264 00:49:20,466 --> 00:49:22,426 that would facilitate this service. 1265 00:49:22,426 --> 00:49:26,306 And it would be a lot like a bank or a checking account 1266 00:49:26,306 --> 00:49:28,066 where there would be someone there. 1267 00:49:28,066 --> 00:49:29,946 If you wanted to have it instantly, you could. 1268 00:49:29,946 --> 00:49:30,866 It would just cost you. 1269 00:49:30,866 --> 00:49:32,346 And it would cost you almost nothing 1270 00:49:32,346 --> 00:49:33,186 because this would be, 1271 00:49:33,186 --> 00:49:35,066 anyone with Bitcoin could provide this service. 1272 00:49:35,066 --> 00:49:36,146 So it'd be very competitive. 1273 00:49:36,146 --> 00:49:37,786 There's no barrier to entry. 1274 00:49:37,786 --> 00:49:40,026 So anyone can jump in and provide this service. 1275 00:49:40,026 --> 00:49:41,906 I'm still a little bit confused on the incentives. 1276 00:49:41,906 --> 00:49:43,626 What's stopping people from just saying, 1277 00:49:43,626 --> 00:49:46,546 oh, there's all this money on a sidechain. 1278 00:49:46,546 --> 00:49:47,826 We can just take it. 1279 00:49:47,826 --> 00:49:50,146 Yeah, the miners can assert anything they want 1280 00:49:50,146 --> 00:49:52,146 about the destination of that money. 1281 00:49:52,986 --> 00:49:54,586 So how's that going to give me any confidence 1282 00:49:54,586 --> 00:49:56,586 putting money into a sidechain? 1283 00:49:56,586 --> 00:49:59,146 What they have to do is it all condenses 1284 00:49:59,146 --> 00:50:03,026 into one transaction that is sort of in stasis for. 1285 00:50:03,177 --> 00:50:04,377 That is sort of in stasis for two to three months. 1286 00:50:04,377 --> 00:50:11,057 So let's call it, it doesn't matter, two months, but I think it would probably be closer to three months because they keep making it longer and longer the more I think about it. 1287 00:50:11,457 --> 00:50:13,097 So it's looking more like three months. 1288 00:50:13,377 --> 00:50:18,617 So the sidechain will be broadcasting, you know, basically a hash, not basically. 1289 00:50:18,617 --> 00:50:22,497 It will be broadcasting one hash that is, you know, a human can read. 1290 00:50:22,697 --> 00:50:26,497 It's not, of course, it's a bunch of random garbage text, but it's short. 1291 00:50:26,617 --> 00:50:33,097 The point is, it's the point is the information bandwidth is really, really small and it will be broadcasting this thing. 1292 00:50:33,617 --> 00:50:37,937 And if no one does anything, the software will automatically do the transfer the right way. 1293 00:50:38,377 --> 00:50:45,977 So what the miners have to do is they have to do the wrong thing, at which point the alarm will immediately go off that these things don't match. 1294 00:50:46,097 --> 00:50:49,737 Right. And that's do the wrong thing consistently for like three months. 1295 00:50:49,737 --> 00:50:52,297 So everyone will hear about this the day after. 1296 00:50:52,697 --> 00:50:57,017 OK, so the miners are sending the money the wrong way. 1297 00:50:57,297 --> 00:51:03,777 And the way it works is it's just as easy to attack the sidechain for all of the money as it is for one transaction or a little bit. 1298 00:51:03,977 --> 00:51:07,377 And in fact, if it's easy, it's exactly the same amount of effort. 1299 00:51:07,617 --> 00:51:08,977 It is an effort. 1300 00:51:08,977 --> 00:51:10,617 So it's one effort per sidechain. 1301 00:51:10,977 --> 00:51:19,417 But, you know, it's no stealing from a huge sidechain that has a lot of money, a very popular one, which is why I brought up popularity before. 1302 00:51:19,457 --> 00:51:22,657 Stealing from a popular one is exactly the same as stealing from an unpopular one. 1303 00:51:22,657 --> 00:51:27,337 So what it does is it threatens the entire sidechain experiment. 1304 00:51:27,537 --> 00:51:29,857 So that's really the security model. 1305 00:51:29,857 --> 00:51:35,217 And, you know, it's not airtight, but Bitcoin really isn't either. 1306 00:51:35,217 --> 00:51:42,537 So if you're willing to assume that miners are going to persistently misbehave for like three months to steal money, miners can already do that. 1307 00:51:42,577 --> 00:51:47,657 They can already deposit to an exchange and then rewrite the chain if they have 51%. 1308 00:51:48,217 --> 00:51:53,337 Well, when you say miners, are you just talking about one miner or are you talking about 51% of the hash rate? 1309 00:51:53,337 --> 00:51:54,697 We're talking about 51%, yes. 1310 00:51:54,697 --> 00:52:00,577 In fact, the way it's coded is a little even more conservative than that, because it's a configurable parameter per sidechain. 1311 00:52:00,577 --> 00:52:06,977 But kind of the default will be you can like upvote or downvote, basically one vote per block. 1312 00:52:07,017 --> 00:52:09,577 So you're accumulating these votes over three months. 1313 00:52:09,577 --> 00:52:14,497 So the mine, OK, so it's a block size type thing where the mine is similar. 1314 00:52:14,857 --> 00:52:20,857 There's like a little there's like a little counter and it can either go up or down and you can actually miners can downvote. 1315 00:52:20,857 --> 00:52:25,177 So just the way the math works and you can even set it to require 70% or something like that. 1316 00:52:25,377 --> 00:52:30,777 So if it requires 70% and you get 10 people voting against you, then you're really screwed. 1317 00:52:30,777 --> 00:52:35,137 You need at least 81% in order to force something false in there. 1318 00:52:35,137 --> 00:52:41,057 But of course, the tradeoff is that if you do 70%, then anyone can just lock the money in there forever. 1319 00:52:41,057 --> 00:52:43,937 You know, if they've only got whatever it is, 30%. 1320 00:52:44,097 --> 00:52:46,497 So, Paul, can I ask you a question about attack vector? 1321 00:52:46,937 --> 00:52:50,417 Yeah, so if they only have 16%, excuse me, because they have 16 against. 1322 00:52:50,657 --> 00:53:00,497 So let's say miners start colluding and for one week they start doing malintent upon the sidechain. 1323 00:53:00,497 --> 00:53:06,257 Because what it sounds like to me, you have to do something for like three months or two months before that sidechain essentially gets fired. 1324 00:53:07,257 --> 00:53:14,257 Well, that is one way of thinking about it. That's not what I had in mind, which is that they've got to do something for three months. 1325 00:53:14,257 --> 00:53:19,057 If the withdrawals take three months and they go wherever the miners say. 1326 00:53:19,057 --> 00:53:30,097 Okay, so what I'm thinking is when people try to exit from the sidechain or Drivechain, I'm so confused now, but let's just say it's in the sidechain. 1327 00:53:30,977 --> 00:53:39,377 And these miners for like two weeks or whatever, three weeks, whatever, have been malintenting that we're going to get rid of the sidechain. 1328 00:53:39,377 --> 00:53:48,337 Now, the fees that these people have to pay to get out of the sidechain are going to be huge to the point where when the miners get that money, then they say, oh, we're just kidding. 1329 00:53:48,337 --> 00:53:55,937 And then they can buy back in real cheap. I'm wondering if there's any kind of malicious, where you can scare people out of the sidechain and steal their money. 1330 00:53:56,257 --> 00:54:06,257 Yeah, if the miners steal from the sidechain, then the sidechain coins would probably immediately be worthless because people would think, oh, no. 1331 00:54:06,257 --> 00:54:08,257 But it's the peg, right? 1332 00:54:08,257 --> 00:54:14,257 Yeah, but in the case that you suggested, the peg has basically stopped working. It's no longer a peg. It's just a one-way. 1333 00:54:14,257 --> 00:54:20,257 No, what I'm saying is the peg is still working. They're just scaring people out to pay a huge transaction fee to be prioritized out of there. 1334 00:54:20,257 --> 00:54:24,257 Well, you could scare people. The miners could attack the sidechain. 1335 00:54:24,577 --> 00:54:26,577 Temporarily. 1336 00:54:26,577 --> 00:54:28,577 And then they could wait for the fire sale. 1337 00:54:28,577 --> 00:54:42,577 The miners could show up and say, look, we're attacking the sidechain, but if you give us your mainchain money, we'll pay you in mainchain for $0.30 on the dollar or something crazy like that. 1338 00:54:42,577 --> 00:54:44,577 So yeah, something like that could happen. 1339 00:54:44,577 --> 00:54:46,577 There's going to be movies about this. No. 1340 00:54:46,577 --> 00:54:48,577 No, maybe. I don't know. 1341 00:54:48,897 --> 00:54:58,897 Because I think attacking the sidechain is just – I think either it will happen. If it does happen, then the coins are worthless. 1342 00:54:58,897 --> 00:55:04,897 But I just think it won't happen because what it would mean is the end of the sidechain experiment. 1343 00:55:04,897 --> 00:55:10,897 And I think miners want – I think the thing that motivates miners the most is that the Bitcoin exchange rate increases. 1344 00:55:11,217 --> 00:55:13,217 That's just my guess. 1345 00:55:13,217 --> 00:55:15,217 But they are motivated by transaction fees, of course. 1346 00:55:15,217 --> 00:55:27,217 But if the Bitcoin price decreases or even fails to increase, that has a direct impact on their ability to purchase a given amount of electricity. 1347 00:55:27,217 --> 00:55:31,217 So that thing hits them for 100%. 1348 00:55:31,217 --> 00:55:34,217 The exchange rate hits 100% of their earnings. 1349 00:55:34,217 --> 00:55:36,217 They're earning in Bitcoin. 1350 00:55:36,537 --> 00:55:43,537 If transaction fees can go down by 10%, that's basically the same as if the exchange rate goes down by 10%. 1351 00:55:43,537 --> 00:55:47,537 Yeah. I mean you don't want to disenfranchise too many people because then you'll lose value. 1352 00:55:47,537 --> 00:55:52,537 But do you think SegWit is going to be activated through a soft fork? 1353 00:55:52,537 --> 00:55:54,537 Yes. 1354 00:55:54,537 --> 00:55:56,537 You do? 1355 00:55:56,537 --> 00:55:58,537 Well, it's defined as a soft fork now. 1356 00:55:58,537 --> 00:56:03,537 So conditional on it activating, it will currently be a – do you think it will be a hard fork before it activates? 1357 00:56:03,857 --> 00:56:08,857 I'm saying do you think we'll hit the 95% or whatever percent threshold in order to activate SegWit? 1358 00:56:08,857 --> 00:56:13,857 You can actually activate it with a 0% threshold or a 5% threshold or whatever. 1359 00:56:13,857 --> 00:56:17,857 A soft fork, yeah. But I mean as defined right now. 1360 00:56:17,857 --> 00:56:19,857 Yeah, I agree with you. 1361 00:56:19,857 --> 00:56:25,857 Custom and privacy – or I guess politeness we could say. 1362 00:56:25,857 --> 00:56:32,857 Custom and politeness dictate that we give everyone a chance to decline, which is the 95%. 1363 00:56:33,177 --> 00:56:35,177 Thresholds for upgrading. 1364 00:56:35,177 --> 00:56:41,177 So will it hit the 95% threshold? Well, not anytime soon, but I think eventually, yes. 1365 00:56:41,177 --> 00:56:48,177 So will that be like a key indicator to let you know like, okay, Drivechains have a chance of actually getting soft forked in? 1366 00:56:48,177 --> 00:56:51,177 I think I have a chance of doing it before SegWit. 1367 00:56:51,177 --> 00:56:52,177 Really? Okay. 1368 00:56:52,177 --> 00:56:55,177 I'm not relying on SegWit's transaction malleability effects. 1369 00:56:55,177 --> 00:57:00,177 Right, I'm not. It would be nice to have though. It would be a shame because you can lightning across chains. 1370 00:57:00,497 --> 00:57:04,497 I'm sorry. Is the code already written to implement this? 1371 00:57:04,497 --> 00:57:08,497 Yeah, you can go to drivechain.info and you can see – we're actually making – we have two. 1372 00:57:08,497 --> 00:57:11,497 So I haven't done the Blind Merged Mining at all. 1373 00:57:11,497 --> 00:57:17,497 So I think I might as well just ship the whole thing together because it's kind of tightly integrated. 1374 00:57:17,497 --> 00:57:20,497 So I haven't done that at all, which I don't know how long. It might take a month or something. 1375 00:57:20,497 --> 00:57:22,497 So you're one of the devs on this? 1376 00:57:22,497 --> 00:57:25,497 No, not really. I mean I do the dev stuff. 1377 00:57:25,817 --> 00:57:30,817 I will do it like academically or like I'll plan it out and I'll do like proof of concept or something. 1378 00:57:30,817 --> 00:57:32,817 But I won't do it in C++. 1379 00:57:32,817 --> 00:57:39,817 So the guy, Patrick Cryptax, he is the guy who does the C++, like the real deving. 1380 00:57:39,817 --> 00:57:40,817 Does he work for Block? 1381 00:57:40,817 --> 00:57:42,817 I just do the academic deving. 1382 00:57:42,817 --> 00:57:46,817 I think Block is going to – I strongly feel that Block is going to hire him really soon. 1383 00:57:46,817 --> 00:57:53,817 He actually works – Roger Ver hired him to work on Hivemind, but I just – I mean – so it doesn't matter. 1384 00:57:54,137 --> 00:57:58,137 That's what I was trying to express to you before is that I do the same thing that I was doing before. 1385 00:57:58,137 --> 00:58:03,137 It's just kind of like a different – people have different reasons for associating with different people 1386 00:58:03,137 --> 00:58:05,137 and different things they hope to get out of that and things. 1387 00:58:05,137 --> 00:58:07,137 But it doesn't really matter I think. 1388 00:58:07,137 --> 00:58:13,137 So if you – when you launch your Drivechain reference implementation, what is the first Drivechain going to be? 1389 00:58:13,137 --> 00:58:19,137 Well, I think it will be one for just – that's just with – I mean sort of what I'm conjecturing is that 1390 00:58:19,457 --> 00:58:25,457 it will be one that's just BIP 101, which is Gavin's BIP, eight megabytes, doubling every year, very aggressive. 1391 00:58:25,457 --> 00:58:27,457 But that's of course the hard limit. 1392 00:58:27,457 --> 00:58:29,457 Miners can set a soft limit. 1393 00:58:29,457 --> 00:58:30,457 And I think that one – 1394 00:58:30,457 --> 00:58:31,457 It doesn't matter, right? 1395 00:58:31,457 --> 00:58:32,457 Right. 1396 00:58:32,457 --> 00:58:34,457 So that's how – exactly. 1397 00:58:34,457 --> 00:58:40,457 So I've worked for really, really hard on – I have a laser focus on one issue with the sidechains, 1398 00:58:40,457 --> 00:58:45,457 which is making sure that the chains do not negatively impact each other at all. 1399 00:58:45,777 --> 00:58:48,777 And I try to make them not impact each other at all. 1400 00:58:48,777 --> 00:58:54,777 But some of them – and in fact, sometimes for ecological reasons, they must. 1401 00:58:54,777 --> 00:58:58,777 And so I've tried – that's why I have – that's part of the reason why I have that thing I mentioned earlier 1402 00:58:58,777 --> 00:59:04,777 where the miners can kind of scope out ones that they don't like and get rid of them specifically 1403 00:59:04,777 --> 00:59:11,777 because they will affect each other even if one chain doesn't want to be affected by another one. 1404 00:59:12,097 --> 00:59:16,097 You can make a sidechain that's specifically designed to affect other sidechains. 1405 00:59:16,097 --> 00:59:18,097 So you don't want that. 1406 00:59:18,097 --> 00:59:19,097 So in order to do that – 1407 00:59:19,097 --> 00:59:22,097 That's rule number three or four, Mike. 1408 00:59:22,097 --> 00:59:23,097 You don't want that. 1409 00:59:23,097 --> 00:59:25,097 Yeah, you don't – four, I think. 1410 00:59:25,097 --> 00:59:26,097 It's four, yeah. 1411 00:59:26,097 --> 00:59:29,097 It's you're an idiot, I'm an idiot. 1412 00:59:29,097 --> 00:59:30,097 Markets are efficient. 1413 00:59:30,097 --> 00:59:31,097 You don't want that. 1414 00:59:31,097 --> 00:59:35,097 The cheapest pair of pants are the ones that cost you the lowest amount of money or something. 1415 00:59:35,097 --> 00:59:39,097 And then rule ten is meet me at the cribbage table. 1416 00:59:39,097 --> 00:59:41,097 Yeah, maybe. 1417 00:59:41,417 --> 00:59:46,417 And rule – the other rule number one is don't talk about Bitcoin Uncensored. 1418 00:59:46,417 --> 00:59:52,417 The first rule of Bitcoin Uncensored is pretend that it's a show about a bunch of racists 1419 00:59:52,417 --> 00:59:55,417 and don't tell any of the racists what to do. 1420 00:59:55,417 --> 00:59:56,417 Hey, hey, hey. 1421 00:59:56,417 --> 00:59:59,417 Are you trying to out Bitcoin Uncensored on what? 1422 00:59:59,417 --> 01:00:02,417 Tell everyone to give it one star. 1423 01:00:02,417 --> 01:00:04,417 It's the worst Bitcoin podcast. 1424 01:00:04,417 --> 01:00:06,417 It's the worst podcast of any type ever. 1425 01:00:06,417 --> 01:00:10,417 So we were talking about the chain. 1426 01:00:10,737 --> 01:00:12,737 So I'm laser focused on that. 1427 01:00:12,737 --> 01:00:17,737 And what I'm not focused as much on, I try to make the sidechains themselves secure 1428 01:00:17,737 --> 01:00:22,737 through this Blind Merged Mining and through the transfer back being appropriate. 1429 01:00:22,737 --> 01:00:25,737 But I'm really not as concerned about that at all. 1430 01:00:25,737 --> 01:00:29,737 And the reason is that people are free to take whatever risks they want with their own money. 1431 01:00:29,737 --> 01:00:33,737 When everyone bought Bitcoin, they knew it was like a crazy gamble. 1432 01:00:33,737 --> 01:00:35,737 And it could easily have not worked. 1433 01:00:36,057 --> 01:00:41,057 Greg Maxwell proved that distributed consensus was impossible before Bitcoin was invented 1434 01:00:41,057 --> 01:00:44,057 and kind of proved that it was possible. 1435 01:00:44,057 --> 01:00:52,057 So there was this kind of like Bitcoin relies on some incentive-based kind of shady substances. 1436 01:00:52,057 --> 01:00:56,057 And it's sort of like, okay, everyone's getting me on Telegram now. 1437 01:00:56,057 --> 01:00:57,057 That's very funny. 1438 01:00:57,057 --> 01:00:59,057 I got to mute all this. 1439 01:00:59,057 --> 01:01:00,057 All right. 1440 01:01:00,057 --> 01:01:02,057 Are they watching? 1441 01:01:02,377 --> 01:01:03,377 Hold on, Paul. 1442 01:01:03,377 --> 01:01:04,377 Blind Merged Mining? 1443 01:01:04,377 --> 01:01:05,377 Yes. 1444 01:01:05,377 --> 01:01:08,377 Is that going to be required or is that optional? 1445 01:01:08,377 --> 01:01:14,377 The thing about Blind Merged Mining is that you can become sighted again if you just run a full node. 1446 01:01:14,377 --> 01:01:18,377 So the way Blind Merged Mining works is that you can ask someone else. 1447 01:01:18,377 --> 01:01:23,377 The sidechain nodes pay themselves the transaction fees. 1448 01:01:23,377 --> 01:01:31,377 And then they bribe main chain miners to include the hash of that block. 1449 01:01:31,697 --> 01:01:37,697 So if Alan is on the sidechain, Alan's going to pay himself all the transaction fees for that block. 1450 01:01:37,697 --> 01:01:40,697 But the point is he's not going to mine the block because he's not a miner. 1451 01:01:40,697 --> 01:01:51,697 But with Blind Merged Mining, he bribes Bob the miner to include Alan's block in the Bitcoin main chain core base, thus mining it. 1452 01:01:51,697 --> 01:01:52,697 Okay. 1453 01:01:52,697 --> 01:01:56,697 So is that literally like you're bribing a pool of miners or how's that work? 1454 01:01:56,697 --> 01:01:57,697 Sort of. 1455 01:01:57,697 --> 01:01:58,697 It doesn't matter. 1456 01:01:58,697 --> 01:01:59,697 Yeah, it'll be a market again. 1457 01:02:00,017 --> 01:02:10,017 So the people on all the sidechains will be like, I'll pay for Bitcoin if you include this hash that pays me 3.9. 1458 01:02:10,017 --> 01:02:15,017 And someone else will say, I'll pay 4.1 Bitcoin if you include this different hash that pays me 4. 1459 01:02:15,017 --> 01:02:16,017 And someone else will say... 1460 01:02:16,017 --> 01:02:18,017 They used to bid. 1461 01:02:18,017 --> 01:02:20,017 It doesn't really... 1462 01:02:20,017 --> 01:02:25,017 They just broadcast these messages and flood them in theory, but I haven't coded any of this. 1463 01:02:25,017 --> 01:02:27,017 Who's going to persist the data of the sidechain? 1464 01:02:27,017 --> 01:02:28,017 Is it going to be dedicated... 1465 01:02:28,337 --> 01:02:29,337 People running the nodes. 1466 01:02:29,337 --> 01:02:32,337 So people run nodes just like Bitcoin. 1467 01:02:32,337 --> 01:02:33,337 Okay. 1468 01:02:33,337 --> 01:02:37,337 And it's actually going to be two different ledgers, like one for the sidechain, one for the main chain? 1469 01:02:37,337 --> 01:02:41,337 Yes, two different blockchains, two different databases. 1470 01:02:42,337 --> 01:02:43,337 Okay. 1471 01:02:43,337 --> 01:02:45,337 It'll be just like an altcoin, really. 1472 01:02:45,337 --> 01:02:49,337 It'll be very similar to an altcoin, but with this other stuff. 1473 01:02:49,337 --> 01:02:57,337 So Dan, to finish the Blind Merged Mining thought, if a miner doesn't want to be bribed, he can just run the sidechain node. 1474 01:02:57,657 --> 01:03:01,657 Calculate all the transaction fees, pay them to himself, and then mine the block. 1475 01:03:01,657 --> 01:03:02,657 So he can... 1476 01:03:02,657 --> 01:03:07,657 You can outsource something, or you can just hire that person to do it yourself, which is... 1477 01:03:07,657 --> 01:03:12,657 So they can undo the blindness whenever they want, which I expect most of them will actually do. 1478 01:03:12,657 --> 01:03:14,657 But I wanted to code this anyway. 1479 01:03:14,657 --> 01:03:18,657 And when they include it, they're also... 1480 01:03:18,657 --> 01:03:21,657 It's not like they're temporarily not securing Bitcoin. 1481 01:03:21,657 --> 01:03:25,657 They're just adding in one small transaction that represents that sidechain. 1482 01:03:25,977 --> 01:03:28,977 The miners choose which transactions to include anyway. 1483 01:03:28,977 --> 01:03:32,977 So they're just thinking that one is a priority because they get fees. 1484 01:03:32,977 --> 01:03:34,977 Wait, wait, wait. Say that again, Mike. 1485 01:03:34,977 --> 01:03:38,977 So the miners already choose which transactions to include in a block. 1486 01:03:38,977 --> 01:03:46,977 They're just being asked by the sidechain, here's a particularly profitable transaction if you include it into the block. 1487 01:03:46,977 --> 01:03:49,977 Yeah, and that's going to represent all the transactions of the sidechain, right? 1488 01:03:50,297 --> 01:03:58,297 Exactly. So the sidechain node would pay themselves all the transaction fees for all the messages on that chain. 1489 01:03:58,297 --> 01:04:00,297 And then they bribe the miner just a little bit less than that. 1490 01:04:00,297 --> 01:04:02,297 They keep a tiny slice for themselves. 1491 01:04:02,297 --> 01:04:05,297 And then the miner just sees this thing. 1492 01:04:05,297 --> 01:04:11,297 If you include this thing in a Coinbase, which is how merge mining works, basically. 1493 01:04:11,297 --> 01:04:15,297 If you include that thing, we'll pay you this amount of money. 1494 01:04:15,617 --> 01:04:21,617 As far as fees per kilobyte goes, the Coinbase thing that's going to be included is going to be very small. 1495 01:04:21,617 --> 01:04:25,617 It's just going to be one hash. So it's going to be small. 1496 01:04:25,617 --> 01:04:30,617 And it's probably going to be paying many orders of magnitude higher than that. 1497 01:04:30,617 --> 01:04:34,617 Yeah, I mean you can pay like four times the normal transaction fee or whatever. 1498 01:04:34,617 --> 01:04:37,617 Yeah. I think so, yes. 1499 01:04:37,937 --> 01:04:42,937 Okay, so essentially this is the incentive of the whole system. 1500 01:04:42,937 --> 01:04:45,937 Is that I'm always going to be profitable if you mine my transaction. 1501 01:04:45,937 --> 01:04:50,937 And I'm going to be so much more valuable as a whole ecosystem outside of the main chain, right? 1502 01:04:50,937 --> 01:04:56,937 Yeah, the security is that miners won't kill the goose that lays the golden egg. 1503 01:04:56,937 --> 01:04:57,937 Okay. 1504 01:04:57,937 --> 01:04:58,937 Sort of. 1505 01:04:58,937 --> 01:05:06,937 So would you argue that you can make a centralized database that does all this stuff with provable hashes back to the Bitcoin blockchain through something like Tirion? 1506 01:05:07,257 --> 01:05:09,257 Yes, Tirion uses the anchoring. 1507 01:05:09,257 --> 01:05:13,257 But you understand anchoring doesn't solve the double spend problem. 1508 01:05:13,257 --> 01:05:14,257 Because you can anchor two things at once. 1509 01:05:14,257 --> 01:05:17,257 Oh yeah, you'd have to trust the centralized database with all that stuff. 1510 01:05:17,257 --> 01:05:22,257 Right, but the blockchain technology does. 1511 01:05:22,257 --> 01:05:26,257 I mean blockchain is Kafka ledgers now. 1512 01:05:26,257 --> 01:05:28,257 Yeah, right now it's everything. 1513 01:05:30,257 --> 01:05:35,257 But like with Tirion you can say Hillary Clinton won and Donald Trump won. 1514 01:05:35,577 --> 01:05:37,577 And you can timestamp them both. 1515 01:05:37,577 --> 01:05:38,577 And no one can figure out. 1516 01:05:38,577 --> 01:05:41,577 You can just automate a bunch of software to just timestamp everything. 1517 01:05:41,577 --> 01:05:44,577 Every possible permutation of the ledger. 1518 01:05:44,577 --> 01:05:47,577 Oh, I think you're the first person that thought of that. 1519 01:05:47,577 --> 01:05:50,577 No, I'm definitely not. 1520 01:05:50,577 --> 01:05:53,577 Definitely not at all. 1521 01:05:53,577 --> 01:05:54,577 That was interesting. 1522 01:05:54,577 --> 01:05:57,577 I actually did learn a little bit about Drivechains. 1523 01:05:57,577 --> 01:05:58,577 That was cool. 1524 01:05:58,577 --> 01:05:59,577 Let's talk. 1525 01:05:59,577 --> 01:06:00,577 Hey, let's. 1526 01:06:00,577 --> 01:06:03,577 I mean, we're going on. 1527 01:06:03,897 --> 01:06:05,897 Let's talk about Satoshi Roundtable now. 1528 01:06:05,897 --> 01:06:06,897 Let's jump back to that. 1529 01:06:06,897 --> 01:06:07,897 Going back? 1530 01:06:07,897 --> 01:06:08,897 Okay. 1531 01:06:08,897 --> 01:06:09,897 Now we know everything about it. 1532 01:06:09,897 --> 01:06:10,897 I love this. 1533 01:06:10,897 --> 01:06:13,897 We don't really know about Hivemind yet, but no one cares I don't think. 1534 01:06:13,897 --> 01:06:14,897 Does anyone care? 1535 01:06:14,897 --> 01:06:17,897 Very non-linear blog post format. 1536 01:06:17,897 --> 01:06:21,897 Well, Andrew Polstra called it, quote, feasible. 1537 01:06:21,897 --> 01:06:22,897 Which was the greatest feedback. 1538 01:06:22,897 --> 01:06:23,897 Hivemind? 1539 01:06:23,897 --> 01:06:28,897 Yeah, and Roger Ver referred to it as possibly the most important project since Bitcoin itself. 1540 01:06:28,897 --> 01:06:31,897 Okay, we have to talk about it for at least five seconds. 1541 01:06:32,217 --> 01:06:34,217 Well, I mean, let's talk about Satoshi Roundtable first. 1542 01:06:34,217 --> 01:06:35,217 We'll leave it to the end. 1543 01:06:35,217 --> 01:06:36,217 We're getting really out of order. 1544 01:06:36,217 --> 01:06:38,217 See, he's getting with the program. 1545 01:06:38,217 --> 01:06:39,217 All right. 1546 01:06:39,217 --> 01:06:42,217 We already talked about it for a little bit, though. 1547 01:06:42,217 --> 01:06:43,217 I know. 1548 01:06:43,217 --> 01:06:45,217 Paul was jumping around everywhere. 1549 01:06:45,217 --> 01:06:47,217 He got off track there. 1550 01:06:47,217 --> 01:06:49,217 So yeah, Satoshi Roundtable. 1551 01:06:49,217 --> 01:06:50,217 So you said it was two days. 1552 01:06:50,217 --> 01:06:54,217 What was the most interesting interaction you had there? 1553 01:06:54,217 --> 01:06:55,217 That's a good question. 1554 01:06:55,217 --> 01:06:56,217 Let me think about it. 1555 01:06:56,217 --> 01:06:57,217 And who was it? 1556 01:06:57,217 --> 01:06:58,217 No, come on. 1557 01:06:58,217 --> 01:06:59,217 I can't say that. 1558 01:06:59,537 --> 01:07:03,537 Most interesting interaction. 1559 01:07:03,537 --> 01:07:06,537 Who made the biggest impression on you? 1560 01:07:06,537 --> 01:07:07,537 You can say that. 1561 01:07:07,537 --> 01:07:08,537 You don't have to say what they said. 1562 01:07:10,537 --> 01:07:11,537 I don't know. 1563 01:07:11,537 --> 01:07:13,537 You know, it's actually... 1564 01:07:15,537 --> 01:07:16,537 Was Satoshi there? 1565 01:07:16,537 --> 01:07:18,537 No one knows, right? 1566 01:07:18,537 --> 01:07:20,537 He may have been there. 1567 01:07:20,537 --> 01:07:28,537 I think that probably there was like, you know, I don't know. 1568 01:07:28,857 --> 01:07:30,857 I don't know if I can say who made the big... 1569 01:07:30,857 --> 01:07:32,857 I mean, it was great to talk with the people who were there. 1570 01:07:32,857 --> 01:07:33,857 And a lot of them were great. 1571 01:07:33,857 --> 01:07:35,857 I mean, Roger Ver and Dr. Beck were both there. 1572 01:07:35,857 --> 01:07:37,857 And they're both awesome. 1573 01:07:37,857 --> 01:07:39,857 So I was talking to both of them at various times. 1574 01:07:39,857 --> 01:07:41,857 And I thought that was the best. 1575 01:07:41,857 --> 01:07:43,857 I'll say that was just the best. 1576 01:07:43,857 --> 01:07:44,857 I talked to Peter Todd. 1577 01:07:44,857 --> 01:07:48,857 I ambushed him at dinner to talk about Blind Merged Mining. 1578 01:07:48,857 --> 01:07:50,857 So that was fun. 1579 01:07:50,857 --> 01:07:54,857 Did you learn anything particularly interesting while you were there? 1580 01:07:54,857 --> 01:07:56,857 Something you didn't know or realize? 1581 01:07:57,177 --> 01:07:59,177 Something that came about? 1582 01:08:01,177 --> 01:08:02,177 That's an interesting question. 1583 01:08:02,177 --> 01:08:04,177 I think... 1584 01:08:04,177 --> 01:08:11,177 Well, one thing is that Peter Todd, we were talking about Blind Merged Mining. 1585 01:08:11,177 --> 01:08:16,177 And apparently, it's public record that he has some... 1586 01:08:16,177 --> 01:08:18,177 He was sort of thinking along those lines. 1587 01:08:18,177 --> 01:08:24,177 Which is interesting because his idea of client-side validation kind of overlaps with what I'm aiming for. 1588 01:08:24,497 --> 01:08:27,497 Client-sidechains don't bother each other concept. 1589 01:08:27,497 --> 01:08:29,497 So it's interesting. 1590 01:08:29,497 --> 01:08:34,497 I think we might have traced out different sides of a circle or something on that. 1591 01:08:34,497 --> 01:08:36,497 But I think... 1592 01:08:36,497 --> 01:08:39,497 So I did learn a little bit from Peter Todd, of course. 1593 01:08:39,497 --> 01:08:41,497 Because he knows a lot. 1594 01:08:41,497 --> 01:08:43,497 And what was that the client does what exactly? 1595 01:08:43,497 --> 01:08:46,497 Client-side validation is Peter Todd's phrase. 1596 01:08:46,497 --> 01:08:51,497 He likes this other thing where miners just get paid transaction fees in Bitcoin. 1597 01:08:51,497 --> 01:08:53,497 And they have no idea what they are doing at all. 1598 01:08:53,817 --> 01:08:57,817 Which is ironic because it's very similar to what the sidechains... 1599 01:08:57,817 --> 01:08:59,817 Yeah, it's blind. 1600 01:08:59,817 --> 01:09:01,817 Like Blind Merged Mining. 1601 01:09:01,817 --> 01:09:04,817 So he had like a kind of a weird thing involving a bunch of... 1602 01:09:04,817 --> 01:09:06,817 I don't want to talk about it and screw it up. 1603 01:09:06,817 --> 01:09:07,817 But it's something involving... 1604 01:09:07,817 --> 01:09:11,817 He had, I think, a more complicated version of Blind Merged Mining. 1605 01:09:11,817 --> 01:09:14,817 And frankly, it might be better as far as I know. 1606 01:09:14,817 --> 01:09:16,817 But it's hidden in some obscure IRC log. 1607 01:09:16,817 --> 01:09:19,817 And he told me what to Google search to find it. 1608 01:09:19,817 --> 01:09:21,817 But I admit that I forgot. 1609 01:09:22,137 --> 01:09:24,137 I don't know. 1610 01:09:24,137 --> 01:09:28,137 At this point, I think I'm just going to stick with the thing that I understand. 1611 01:09:28,137 --> 01:09:29,137 Did anyone... 1612 01:09:29,137 --> 01:09:33,137 So I'm guessing you brought up Drivechains during the Satoshi roundtable? 1613 01:09:33,137 --> 01:09:34,137 I did bring it up, yes. 1614 01:09:34,137 --> 01:09:36,137 Well, I kind of brought it up early on. 1615 01:09:36,137 --> 01:09:39,137 And then I didn't say the first night. 1616 01:09:39,137 --> 01:09:41,137 And then I didn't really say anything. 1617 01:09:41,137 --> 01:09:42,137 So then later on... 1618 01:09:42,137 --> 01:09:44,137 What was the general feedback? 1619 01:09:44,137 --> 01:09:51,137 Yeah, well, then the end of day two, people more or less demanded that I mention it. 1620 01:09:51,457 --> 01:09:53,457 So then I mentioned it again. 1621 01:09:53,457 --> 01:09:56,457 But not to everyone. 1622 01:09:56,457 --> 01:09:57,457 Only to like... 1623 01:09:57,457 --> 01:10:00,457 Because there are different groups at Satoshi roundtable. 1624 01:10:00,457 --> 01:10:01,457 And so I was with the Bitcoin group. 1625 01:10:01,457 --> 01:10:02,457 I was with like... 1626 01:10:02,457 --> 01:10:04,457 There's these other groups. 1627 01:10:04,457 --> 01:10:08,457 The ICO kind of weirdo group, right? 1628 01:10:08,457 --> 01:10:09,457 And then there's like... 1629 01:10:09,457 --> 01:10:13,457 Some of the people are from doing these weird other projects. 1630 01:10:13,457 --> 01:10:14,457 Okay. 1631 01:10:14,457 --> 01:10:16,457 So this wasn't just one big roundtable. 1632 01:10:16,457 --> 01:10:17,457 There's different... 1633 01:10:17,457 --> 01:10:18,457 Of course. 1634 01:10:18,457 --> 01:10:19,457 Yeah, it was not. 1635 01:10:19,457 --> 01:10:20,457 How many people were there? 1636 01:10:20,777 --> 01:10:22,777 Was it like 50? 1637 01:10:22,777 --> 01:10:23,777 It was like 200. 1638 01:10:23,777 --> 01:10:24,777 Yeah. 1639 01:10:24,777 --> 01:10:25,777 In total, there was like... 1640 01:10:25,777 --> 01:10:26,777 Definitely more than 100. 1641 01:10:26,777 --> 01:10:27,777 I don't really remember. 1642 01:10:27,777 --> 01:10:32,777 But in the room that I was in, at the end of day two, talking about this idea. 1643 01:10:32,777 --> 01:10:34,777 There were maybe... 1644 01:10:34,777 --> 01:10:36,777 Someone must count them. 1645 01:10:36,777 --> 01:10:38,777 There's like maybe 20 people. 1646 01:10:38,777 --> 01:10:41,777 It was like four rows of four. 1647 01:10:41,777 --> 01:10:43,777 Square. 1648 01:10:43,777 --> 01:10:44,777 Okay. 1649 01:10:44,777 --> 01:10:46,777 So you're saying that the groups were like... 1650 01:10:46,777 --> 01:10:48,777 I mean, were there people there for like... 1651 01:10:49,097 --> 01:10:52,097 You said ICOs like Ethereum-based ICOs? 1652 01:10:52,097 --> 01:10:56,097 There was only like one or two Ethereum people, thankfully. 1653 01:10:56,097 --> 01:11:03,097 One of them did try to convince someone, who shall remain nameless, and myself, 1654 01:11:03,097 --> 01:11:06,097 that proof-of-stake was a good idea. 1655 01:11:06,097 --> 01:11:07,097 And we were like... 1656 01:11:07,097 --> 01:11:13,097 I was like, do you acknowledge that everyone has brought up proof-of-stake once per three months 1657 01:11:13,097 --> 01:11:16,097 since the beginning of 2010? 1658 01:11:16,417 --> 01:11:21,417 And every single 100% of them have been wrong and later admitted that I was stupid. 1659 01:11:21,417 --> 01:11:23,417 And he was like, yes, I do admit that. 1660 01:11:23,417 --> 01:11:27,417 And then I was like, but you still think that you've got proof-of-stake figured out this time? 1661 01:11:27,417 --> 01:11:28,417 And he said, yes. 1662 01:11:28,417 --> 01:11:33,417 And then he said, I should go to Paris, where Ethereum turns on the proof-of-stake. 1663 01:11:33,417 --> 01:11:35,417 I think it's this month, too, February. 1664 01:11:35,417 --> 01:11:39,417 Ethereum will activate the proof-of-stake. 1665 01:11:39,417 --> 01:11:45,417 And I was like, well, that sounds like a waste of my time because it's going to be stupid. 1666 01:11:45,737 --> 01:11:47,737 And he was like, whatever. 1667 01:11:47,737 --> 01:11:48,737 It's going to be great. 1668 01:11:48,737 --> 01:11:51,737 I think it will be an interesting experiment. 1669 01:11:51,737 --> 01:11:53,737 I can't wait to see what happens. 1670 01:11:53,737 --> 01:11:55,737 I'm so excited. 1671 01:11:55,737 --> 01:11:59,737 So I've mentioned this before, which is the only reason I bring it up now again. 1672 01:11:59,737 --> 01:12:02,737 But Vitalik could actually die as a result of this happening. 1673 01:12:02,737 --> 01:12:08,737 Because the weak subjectivity is like, his key is determining which chain is real. 1674 01:12:08,737 --> 01:12:12,737 And if someone wants to rewrite the chain, they need to get his key, 1675 01:12:12,737 --> 01:12:14,737 which means that his key is worth a lot. 1676 01:12:15,057 --> 01:12:17,057 The cost is costless simulation. 1677 01:12:17,057 --> 01:12:21,057 So you're saying there's centralization around proof-of-stake with his key? 1678 01:12:21,057 --> 01:12:22,057 Yeah. 1679 01:12:22,057 --> 01:12:25,057 Weak subjectivity is pure centralization. 1680 01:12:27,057 --> 01:12:28,057 What? 1681 01:12:28,057 --> 01:12:29,057 I'm so confused. 1682 01:12:29,057 --> 01:12:30,057 All right. 1683 01:12:30,057 --> 01:12:31,057 I didn't really want to talk about POS. 1684 01:12:31,057 --> 01:12:35,057 But jeez, you're saying that the Ethereum implementation of proof-of-stake 1685 01:12:35,057 --> 01:12:40,057 is going to rely on a multi-chain private key federation? 1686 01:12:40,057 --> 01:12:41,057 Yeah, absolutely. 1687 01:12:41,057 --> 01:12:42,057 Yes, it does. 1688 01:12:42,057 --> 01:12:43,057 That's what weak subjectivity means. 1689 01:12:43,377 --> 01:12:47,377 They're going to get subjectivity from someone's subjective point of view, 1690 01:12:47,377 --> 01:12:51,377 but going back for the last two years. 1691 01:12:51,377 --> 01:12:57,377 But what I'm not sure they understand is that it's easy to go make stuff. 1692 01:12:57,377 --> 01:13:03,377 You can go back two years in one day and then make a billion copies 1693 01:13:03,377 --> 01:13:05,377 that all look almost exactly the same. 1694 01:13:05,377 --> 01:13:09,377 So you can just drown the world in these copies that look exactly the same. 1695 01:13:09,377 --> 01:13:12,377 It's like what we were talking about with Hillary and Trump. 1696 01:13:12,697 --> 01:13:14,697 Yeah, costless simulation. 1697 01:13:14,697 --> 01:13:18,697 They're all exactly the same, but you only defraud one person. 1698 01:13:18,697 --> 01:13:21,697 You steal one guy's Bitcoin, one exchange or one anything. 1699 01:13:21,697 --> 01:13:22,697 It doesn't matter. 1700 01:13:22,697 --> 01:13:23,697 So they're all the same. 1701 01:13:23,697 --> 01:13:27,697 And then the only thing holding that back is that Vitalik's key will tell you 1702 01:13:27,697 --> 01:13:30,697 which one that you should trust. 1703 01:13:30,697 --> 01:13:32,697 Until someone shoots Vitalik in the head. 1704 01:13:32,697 --> 01:13:33,697 Until someone shoots Vitalik, right. 1705 01:13:33,697 --> 01:13:36,697 Guys, I don't want to talk. 1706 01:13:36,697 --> 01:13:39,697 This is the danger of centralization. 1707 01:13:40,017 --> 01:13:44,017 That's why we don't do that. 1708 01:13:44,017 --> 01:13:47,017 I don't want to reveal this. 1709 01:13:47,017 --> 01:13:49,017 I don't think people know that. 1710 01:13:49,017 --> 01:13:50,017 I don't think people believe it. 1711 01:13:50,017 --> 01:13:52,017 So I think Vitalik's safe. 1712 01:13:52,017 --> 01:13:55,017 I hope he's safe. 1713 01:13:55,017 --> 01:13:57,017 I don't know what to say about that. 1714 01:13:57,017 --> 01:13:58,017 Anything else? 1715 01:13:58,017 --> 01:14:00,017 What came at you like, bam! 1716 01:14:00,017 --> 01:14:04,017 Like, oh, wow, wasn't expecting that at Satoshi Roundtable. 1717 01:14:04,017 --> 01:14:06,017 Anything? 1718 01:14:06,337 --> 01:14:09,337 Some people were there and they were dramatic characters were there. 1719 01:14:09,337 --> 01:14:11,337 I can't reveal. 1720 01:14:11,337 --> 01:14:14,337 Someone said... 1721 01:14:14,337 --> 01:14:16,337 One million dollar! 1722 01:14:16,337 --> 01:14:21,337 Someone said, like, the market has rejected SegWit. 1723 01:14:21,337 --> 01:14:23,337 Which I thought was ridiculous. 1724 01:14:23,337 --> 01:14:24,337 Oh, yeah. 1725 01:14:24,337 --> 01:14:26,337 Can't even ask. 1726 01:14:26,337 --> 01:14:27,337 Hold on. 1727 01:14:27,337 --> 01:14:29,337 Why is that ridiculous? 1728 01:14:29,337 --> 01:14:30,337 I don't understand. 1729 01:14:30,337 --> 01:14:35,337 This individual gave a metaphor of like a car that was offered. 1730 01:14:35,657 --> 01:14:38,657 Like a General Motors car that people weren't buying. 1731 01:14:38,657 --> 01:14:41,657 But SegWit is opt-in. 1732 01:14:41,657 --> 01:14:43,657 So it's like a car that costs zero. 1733 01:14:43,657 --> 01:14:45,657 That does everything your old car did. 1734 01:14:45,657 --> 01:14:46,657 That you'd be given for free. 1735 01:14:46,657 --> 01:14:48,657 So it's not really a market question. 1736 01:14:48,657 --> 01:14:49,657 Okay. 1737 01:14:49,657 --> 01:14:50,657 In my opinion. 1738 01:14:50,657 --> 01:14:53,657 But that's something that someone said. 1739 01:14:53,657 --> 01:14:54,657 But I do agree that... 1740 01:14:54,657 --> 01:14:55,657 Sounds like something... 1741 01:14:55,657 --> 01:14:59,657 Miners have every right to withhold it. 1742 01:14:59,657 --> 01:15:01,114 Sorry, sounds like what? 1743 01:15:01,114 --> 01:15:03,114 Sounds like something Roger Ver might say. 1744 01:15:03,114 --> 01:15:10,114 Well, it may have been him or may not have been him. But whoever it was may have also publicly blogged about this analogy days afterwards. 1745 01:15:10,114 --> 01:15:14,114 I remember seeing this on Twitter. That's why I don't remember who... 1746 01:15:14,114 --> 01:15:16,114 You may be able to find this individual. 1747 01:15:16,114 --> 01:15:19,114 The blog, I think I read something by Falk Binch. 1748 01:15:19,114 --> 01:15:21,114 You may have read something like that. 1749 01:15:21,114 --> 01:15:22,114 Yeah. 1750 01:15:23,114 --> 01:15:30,114 But I think even though the market analogy is ridiculous, I think the miners do have every right to withhold SegWit. 1751 01:15:30,114 --> 01:15:33,114 That is exactly what they are there for. 1752 01:15:33,114 --> 01:15:36,114 Just to hold things out that they don't think should be in. 1753 01:15:36,114 --> 01:15:40,114 They are there to censor really more than anything else. 1754 01:15:40,114 --> 01:15:43,114 They censor double spends. They censor invalid transactions. 1755 01:15:43,114 --> 01:15:46,114 So they are there to filter stuff out. 1756 01:15:46,114 --> 01:15:48,114 And if they want to filter this thing out, they can filter it out. 1757 01:15:48,114 --> 01:15:50,114 That's what they're there for. 1758 01:15:51,114 --> 01:15:54,114 Was the Satoshi Roundtable a success? 1759 01:15:54,114 --> 01:15:56,114 I thought it was, but I had my own goals. 1760 01:15:56,114 --> 01:15:58,114 So I accomplished my own goals. 1761 01:15:58,114 --> 01:16:02,114 I don't think anyone else thought it was a success. 1762 01:16:02,114 --> 01:16:04,114 I don't know. I really don't know. 1763 01:16:04,114 --> 01:16:07,114 I like that it was a fun place. 1764 01:16:07,114 --> 01:16:11,114 You got to meet people that you never met before. 1765 01:16:11,114 --> 01:16:13,114 You had some fun. 1766 01:16:13,114 --> 01:16:15,114 So I had a lot of fun. 1767 01:16:15,114 --> 01:16:17,114 But I think a lot of people there... 1768 01:16:17,114 --> 01:16:21,114 The last Satoshi Roundtable, last year, there was a big scaling. 1769 01:16:21,114 --> 01:16:23,114 Like, we need to fix scaling here. 1770 01:16:23,114 --> 01:16:26,114 And then that kind of came back this time. 1771 01:16:26,114 --> 01:16:29,114 And I think a lot of those people were angry, and they left disappointed. 1772 01:16:29,114 --> 01:16:33,114 Yeah, because I remember Bruce Fenton talking about that, 1773 01:16:33,114 --> 01:16:37,114 saying that nothing really was accomplished with scaling or something. 1774 01:16:37,114 --> 01:16:39,114 It wasn't a good idea to try to force it. 1775 01:16:39,114 --> 01:16:41,114 I think that was a mistake. 1776 01:16:41,114 --> 01:16:43,114 I think that he should have bailed on that earlier. 1777 01:16:43,114 --> 01:16:45,114 But you never know what... 1778 01:16:45,114 --> 01:16:48,114 It might have worked. I would have been surprised if it did. 1779 01:16:48,114 --> 01:16:51,114 If it worked, I would have been the one who was mistaken about that. 1780 01:16:51,114 --> 01:16:54,114 But I wasn't mistaken. But you never know at the time. 1781 01:16:54,114 --> 01:16:58,114 But my point is that I think a lot of people came there 1782 01:16:58,114 --> 01:17:02,114 with the idea of getting SegWit activated or something, 1783 01:17:02,114 --> 01:17:04,114 or doing some other thing, 1784 01:17:04,114 --> 01:17:08,114 or killing SegWit, or getting support for whatever. 1785 01:17:08,114 --> 01:17:10,114 And I don't think any of that changed. 1786 01:17:10,114 --> 01:17:12,114 And it's interesting. There was only one, I think. 1787 01:17:12,114 --> 01:17:14,114 Oh, my God. I keep remembering. 1788 01:17:14,114 --> 01:17:17,114 I'm sorry to say I get all the miners' names confused. 1789 01:17:17,114 --> 01:17:20,114 But there was only one miner there, and I think it was F2Pool. 1790 01:17:20,114 --> 01:17:26,114 Oh, no. There was Alex Petrov from BitFury. 1791 01:17:26,114 --> 01:17:29,114 And he was there, but there was only one Chinese miner there. 1792 01:17:29,114 --> 01:17:31,114 And I think that guy's name was... 1793 01:17:31,114 --> 01:17:32,114 Chandler? 1794 01:17:32,114 --> 01:17:35,114 Like, no. Wang Fu or something. 1795 01:17:35,114 --> 01:17:37,114 I feel terrible. I can't remember the names. I don't want to say it. 1796 01:17:37,114 --> 01:17:38,114 But it started with a W. 1797 01:17:38,114 --> 01:17:40,114 They're Chinese names. I don't blame you. 1798 01:17:40,114 --> 01:17:41,114 I know. They're hard. 1799 01:17:42,114 --> 01:17:46,114 I hope that to them, all of our names sound the same. 1800 01:17:47,114 --> 01:17:48,114 It's only fair. 1801 01:17:48,114 --> 01:17:49,114 Yeah. 1802 01:17:52,114 --> 01:17:53,114 But I can't remember. 1803 01:17:53,114 --> 01:17:54,114 And I actually never met... 1804 01:17:54,114 --> 01:17:57,114 You say that with so much sincerity, I can't really make fun of you. 1805 01:17:57,114 --> 01:18:00,114 I'm in the clear because I never actually met this individual. 1806 01:18:00,114 --> 01:18:03,114 I was in a different room every single time just by pure luck, 1807 01:18:03,114 --> 01:18:04,114 not by any choice of mine. 1808 01:18:04,114 --> 01:18:06,114 But he happened to be in a different room every time. 1809 01:18:06,114 --> 01:18:11,114 I know at one point someone who may be identifiable 1810 01:18:11,114 --> 01:18:15,114 misidentified this individual as Jihan Wu, 1811 01:18:15,114 --> 01:18:17,114 which was supposedly very funny. 1812 01:18:19,114 --> 01:18:21,114 So that wasn't me, and I wasn't in the room when it happened. 1813 01:18:22,114 --> 01:18:24,114 Was that individual friendly or combative? 1814 01:18:25,114 --> 01:18:26,114 Well, this individual said, 1815 01:18:26,114 --> 01:18:28,114 well, why don't we ask Jihan Wu what he thinks? 1816 01:18:29,114 --> 01:18:31,114 It was someone else. 1817 01:18:31,114 --> 01:18:33,114 It was a different Chinese miner. 1818 01:18:33,114 --> 01:18:34,114 But I never met this guy, 1819 01:18:34,114 --> 01:18:36,114 so I don't know if I mispronounce his name. 1820 01:18:36,114 --> 01:18:38,114 It's hardly my fault because I don't know who he is. 1821 01:18:39,114 --> 01:18:40,114 But I think that was F2Pool. 1822 01:18:42,114 --> 01:18:44,114 There were some small miners there. 1823 01:18:46,114 --> 01:18:47,114 So there were some miners there, 1824 01:18:47,114 --> 01:18:52,114 but people wanted to talk to the big 70% Chinese coalition, 1825 01:18:52,114 --> 01:18:53,114 and they were not there. 1826 01:18:54,114 --> 01:18:56,114 And the only guy who was there was Chinese. 1827 01:18:57,114 --> 01:18:59,114 Someone referred to him as Jihan Wu incorrectly, 1828 01:18:59,114 --> 01:19:00,114 and then everyone in the room stared at him. 1829 01:19:01,114 --> 01:19:04,114 It's like, okay, we're going to talk about stuff we really want to do, 1830 01:19:04,114 --> 01:19:06,114 and you really need the miners' support with all this. 1831 01:19:07,114 --> 01:19:08,114 Particularly around now. 1832 01:19:08,114 --> 01:19:11,114 It would have been kind of appropriate given the recent few months. 1833 01:19:13,114 --> 01:19:15,114 So I think that was an aspect of it that was very salient, 1834 01:19:15,114 --> 01:19:17,114 that people wanted something out of it, 1835 01:19:17,114 --> 01:19:19,114 but they didn't get that thing out of it. 1836 01:19:19,114 --> 01:19:21,114 So I think those people were frustrated. 1837 01:19:21,114 --> 01:19:22,114 I was not, though. 1838 01:19:22,114 --> 01:19:25,114 I planned in advance for what I wanted to accomplish, 1839 01:19:25,114 --> 01:19:27,114 and I got what I wanted out of it. 1840 01:19:27,114 --> 01:19:28,114 So it was a success for me. 1841 01:19:28,114 --> 01:19:29,114 It was a big happy face. 1842 01:19:30,114 --> 01:19:33,114 So, I mean, to come back to this real quick. 1843 01:19:33,114 --> 01:19:35,114 So you say you think SIGWIT's going to pass. 1844 01:19:35,114 --> 01:19:39,114 So do you think that Core is going to lower? 1845 01:19:39,114 --> 01:19:43,114 Because Core has the self-imposed 95% threshold. 1846 01:19:43,114 --> 01:19:45,114 Do you think that's going to be exceeded, 1847 01:19:45,114 --> 01:19:49,114 or Core is going to back off on that 1848 01:19:49,114 --> 01:19:52,114 and implement activation with a lower threshold? 1849 01:19:52,114 --> 01:19:55,114 Well, in practice, it is 51%, of course, 1850 01:19:55,114 --> 01:19:57,114 because they can agree to orphan people 1851 01:19:57,114 --> 01:19:59,114 who don't fall in line, 1852 01:19:59,114 --> 01:20:02,114 and that is a very credible and dangerous threat 1853 01:20:02,114 --> 01:20:04,114 because it also involves anyone who gets away with that 1854 01:20:04,114 --> 01:20:05,114 with making more money. 1855 01:20:05,114 --> 01:20:07,114 But it sets a horrible precedent, 1856 01:20:07,114 --> 01:20:08,114 so that probably won't happen. 1857 01:20:08,114 --> 01:20:11,114 Even though the true threshold is 51%, 1858 01:20:11,114 --> 01:20:13,114 probably there won't be any funny business around that, 1859 01:20:13,114 --> 01:20:16,114 but there might be, which is why I bring that up. 1860 01:20:17,114 --> 01:20:23,114 But I think probably we will go at the very slow road to 95%, 1861 01:20:23,114 --> 01:20:27,114 or we'll either go all the way to 95%, 1862 01:20:27,114 --> 01:20:29,114 or we'll blitz, 1863 01:20:29,114 --> 01:20:33,114 and they'll just activate it with less than 50%. 1864 01:20:33,114 --> 01:20:36,114 So we'll either have whatever we've got now, 1865 01:20:36,114 --> 01:20:38,114 which is like 30% or something. 1866 01:20:38,114 --> 01:20:40,114 Like less than 25%. 1867 01:20:40,114 --> 01:20:42,114 The funny thing about SIGWIT 1868 01:20:42,114 --> 01:20:44,114 is it's actually been dropping by a couple of percentiles, 1869 01:20:44,114 --> 01:20:46,114 which is really strange. 1870 01:20:47,114 --> 01:20:51,114 So it might be a sub-50% blitz activation, 1871 01:20:51,114 --> 01:20:54,114 or we'll go all the way to 95%. 1872 01:20:55,114 --> 01:20:59,114 So in a situation where you start to do it below 50%, 1873 01:20:59,114 --> 01:21:03,114 does that mean you're going to fork the network? 1874 01:21:03,114 --> 01:21:04,114 What does that mean? 1875 01:21:04,114 --> 01:21:05,114 Yes, it's a flag day. 1876 01:21:05,114 --> 01:21:08,114 So you say after this day, 1877 01:21:10,114 --> 01:21:15,114 after this day we just activate the SIGWIT, 1878 01:21:15,114 --> 01:21:18,114 and if anyone finds an invalid SIGWIT block, 1879 01:21:19,114 --> 01:21:21,114 that's an invalid block according to us, 1880 01:21:21,114 --> 01:21:23,114 rejected by all the nodes. 1881 01:21:23,114 --> 01:21:26,114 Hey, Mike. 1882 01:21:26,114 --> 01:21:27,114 Yes. 1883 01:21:27,114 --> 01:21:29,114 You want to talk about Construct? 1884 01:21:30,114 --> 01:21:32,114 Yep, because I went to Construct. 1885 01:21:32,114 --> 01:21:34,114 We're going a little bit long on this interview. 1886 01:21:34,114 --> 01:21:36,114 No, no, I'm fine. I'm still good. 1887 01:21:38,114 --> 01:21:41,114 Let's talk about Construct, Paul. 1888 01:21:41,114 --> 01:21:42,114 Let's talk about it. 1889 01:21:42,114 --> 01:21:45,114 So there's a unicorn named Taylor there. 1890 01:21:45,114 --> 01:21:47,114 There was. I met him in person. 1891 01:21:47,114 --> 01:21:49,114 Taylor Gearing? 1892 01:21:49,114 --> 01:21:51,114 He was definitely a unicorn. 1893 01:21:51,114 --> 01:21:54,114 And he's an Ethereum guy, by the way. 1894 01:21:54,114 --> 01:21:55,114 He's big on POS. 1895 01:21:55,114 --> 01:21:58,114 Was he also at the 51 table? 1896 01:21:58,114 --> 01:21:59,114 I don't remember him. 1897 01:21:59,114 --> 01:22:01,114 Yeah, I was a little distracted by the unicorn. 1898 01:22:01,114 --> 01:22:03,114 This was not the guy I was thinking of 1899 01:22:03,114 --> 01:22:04,114 when I was talking about POS before. 1900 01:22:04,114 --> 01:22:05,114 It was a different guy. 1901 01:22:05,114 --> 01:22:07,114 Oh, I can't even say that, right? 1902 01:22:07,114 --> 01:22:09,114 Because it's negative information. 1903 01:22:09,114 --> 01:22:11,114 Oh, now we're narrowing it down. 1904 01:22:11,114 --> 01:22:12,114 Narrowing it down. 1905 01:22:13,114 --> 01:22:15,114 Six billion minus one. 1906 01:22:15,114 --> 01:22:17,114 Or 6.5 billion. 1907 01:22:17,114 --> 01:22:19,114 Taylor Gearing wasn't at Satoshi Roundtable, was he? 1908 01:22:19,114 --> 01:22:20,114 No. 1909 01:22:20,114 --> 01:22:23,114 I don't think the unicorn guy was at Satoshi Roundtable. 1910 01:22:23,114 --> 01:22:25,114 If he was, I didn't remember him. 1911 01:22:25,114 --> 01:22:28,114 Okay, so let's talk about takeaways from Construct. 1912 01:22:28,114 --> 01:22:31,114 And first, talk about where it was. 1913 01:22:31,114 --> 01:22:33,114 Who was there? 1914 01:22:33,114 --> 01:22:36,114 It was in SF. It was in San Francisco. 1915 01:22:36,114 --> 01:22:38,114 So I hadn't been to San Francisco in a while. 1916 01:22:38,114 --> 01:22:41,114 So it was nice to go back there. 1917 01:22:41,114 --> 01:22:43,114 I didn't pack a lot of warm winter stuff. 1918 01:22:43,114 --> 01:22:45,114 I had to go last minute. 1919 01:22:45,114 --> 01:22:46,114 So it was... 1920 01:22:46,114 --> 01:22:49,114 Oh, and luckily I brought my sweater with me, too. 1921 01:22:49,114 --> 01:22:50,114 The venue was very cold. 1922 01:22:50,114 --> 01:22:52,114 It was in this hangar. 1923 01:22:52,114 --> 01:22:53,114 Innovation hangar. 1924 01:22:53,114 --> 01:22:55,114 But it was like a big aircraft hangar. 1925 01:22:55,114 --> 01:22:57,114 But it clearly hadn't been used for aircraft 1926 01:22:57,114 --> 01:22:59,114 in like 50 years or something. 1927 01:22:59,114 --> 01:23:02,114 Apparently it used to be some museum for kids or something. 1928 01:23:02,114 --> 01:23:04,114 But it was cold there. 1929 01:23:04,114 --> 01:23:05,114 And it was very echoey. 1930 01:23:05,114 --> 01:23:07,114 It was a very bizarre venue idea. 1931 01:23:07,114 --> 01:23:09,114 Because they split it into four tracks, 1932 01:23:09,114 --> 01:23:11,114 they were all kind of in the same big room. 1933 01:23:11,114 --> 01:23:12,114 So there was a lot of echoing sound. 1934 01:23:12,114 --> 01:23:14,114 So it was kind of cold. 1935 01:23:14,114 --> 01:23:16,114 It was kind of difficult to hear some people some of the time. 1936 01:23:16,114 --> 01:23:17,114 Wait a minute. 1937 01:23:17,114 --> 01:23:20,114 So you'd literally be hearing like reverb from like another presentation? 1938 01:23:20,114 --> 01:23:22,114 You would indeed, yes. 1939 01:23:22,114 --> 01:23:24,114 Oh, geez. 1940 01:23:24,114 --> 01:23:28,114 I mean, Construct I feel like has a big name to be kind of like... 1941 01:23:28,114 --> 01:23:29,114 I don't know. 1942 01:23:29,114 --> 01:23:31,114 Well, I think this is the first Construct, isn't it? 1943 01:23:31,114 --> 01:23:32,114 Or maybe it's the second one. 1944 01:23:32,114 --> 01:23:33,114 I don't know. 1945 01:23:33,114 --> 01:23:34,114 But yeah, I agree. 1946 01:23:34,114 --> 01:23:35,114 CoinDesk is trying to be more... 1947 01:23:35,114 --> 01:23:37,114 They do Consensus as a big one. 1948 01:23:37,114 --> 01:23:39,114 Oh, I was thinking about Consensus, sorry. 1949 01:23:39,114 --> 01:23:40,114 Yeah, Consensus is a really big one. 1950 01:23:40,114 --> 01:23:42,114 So that one is in May. 1951 01:23:42,114 --> 01:23:46,114 And CoinDesk is trying to be this thing, this like curator of the conferences. 1952 01:23:46,114 --> 01:23:50,114 So I agree that it's kind of a little bit of a – 1953 01:23:50,114 --> 01:23:54,114 they were a little embarrassed with the venue I think. 1954 01:23:54,114 --> 01:23:55,114 Yeah. 1955 01:23:55,114 --> 01:24:02,114 By the way, we ended up interviewing Joneseth for like three hours. 1956 01:24:02,114 --> 01:24:04,114 After he hung up. 1957 01:24:04,114 --> 01:24:05,114 Oh, really? 1958 01:24:05,114 --> 01:24:06,114 Okay, good. 1959 01:24:06,114 --> 01:24:07,114 I hope it was a good interview. 1960 01:24:07,114 --> 01:24:08,114 Yeah, you can watch. 1961 01:24:08,114 --> 01:24:09,114 We were just chatting. 1962 01:24:09,114 --> 01:24:10,114 All right. 1963 01:24:10,114 --> 01:24:11,114 Okay. 1964 01:24:11,114 --> 01:24:12,114 We didn't really interview him. 1965 01:24:12,114 --> 01:24:15,114 We were just chatting about RAM stuff anyways. 1966 01:24:15,114 --> 01:24:18,114 Kind of like what we're doing. 1967 01:24:18,114 --> 01:24:19,114 Okay. 1968 01:24:19,114 --> 01:24:23,114 So what takeaways did you have from Construct? 1969 01:24:23,114 --> 01:24:28,114 Well, you know, believe it or not, that's an interesting question. 1970 01:24:28,114 --> 01:24:32,114 So I – you know, there was a lot of sidechain stuff there 1971 01:24:32,114 --> 01:24:34,114 and I was comparing it to my own stuff 1972 01:24:34,114 --> 01:24:38,114 and I thought my own stuff looked pretty good actually. 1973 01:24:38,114 --> 01:24:41,114 So I was happy about that. 1974 01:24:41,114 --> 01:24:43,114 What other – like RSK or – 1975 01:24:43,114 --> 01:24:47,114 Yeah, RSK was there and Blockstream was there. 1976 01:24:47,114 --> 01:24:49,114 And Blockstream is kind of going in a different direction. 1977 01:24:49,114 --> 01:24:52,114 They're going in the Federated Pig direction. 1978 01:24:52,114 --> 01:24:53,114 What do you think about that? 1979 01:24:53,114 --> 01:24:54,114 Really? 1980 01:24:54,114 --> 01:24:55,114 I don't like it, right? 1981 01:24:55,114 --> 01:24:56,114 I think it's – 1982 01:24:56,114 --> 01:24:57,114 That's weak sauce. 1983 01:24:57,114 --> 01:25:01,114 Did you tell Adam Back that you didn't like it? 1984 01:25:01,114 --> 01:25:02,114 I did. 1985 01:25:02,114 --> 01:25:04,114 I'm not really sure. 1986 01:25:04,114 --> 01:25:06,114 He agreed on some things. 1987 01:25:06,114 --> 01:25:07,114 He didn't agree on some other things. 1988 01:25:07,114 --> 01:25:09,114 But he did agree partially that it – 1989 01:25:09,114 --> 01:25:13,114 Adam Back is like really smart, right? 1990 01:25:13,114 --> 01:25:15,114 I think he's smart, yeah. 1991 01:25:15,114 --> 01:25:17,114 Have they said why they abandoned the two-way peg? 1992 01:25:17,114 --> 01:25:18,114 Because they were doing – 1993 01:25:18,114 --> 01:25:20,114 Well, you know, actually they did not. 1994 01:25:20,114 --> 01:25:22,114 But I have a guess, which is that – 1995 01:25:22,114 --> 01:25:24,114 you know, I mentioned before that Greg Maxwell proved 1996 01:25:24,114 --> 01:25:28,114 that distributed consensus was impossible right before Bitcoin. 1997 01:25:28,114 --> 01:25:30,114 Proved that it was in fact possible. 1998 01:25:30,114 --> 01:25:37,114 And I think they're just really uncomfortable over there with this whole incentive stuff. 1999 01:25:37,114 --> 01:25:43,114 So the cryptographer model is like 256-bit security 2000 01:25:43,114 --> 01:25:47,114 and you need a computer the size of the sun and totally unbreakable, 2001 01:25:47,114 --> 01:25:52,114 fuck the government, et cetera, type, like super security, right? 2002 01:25:52,114 --> 01:25:55,114 That's like what cryptographers normally live with. 2003 01:25:55,114 --> 01:25:59,114 But in the econ world, we have this other stuff about – 2004 01:25:59,114 --> 01:26:02,114 like we even have this phrase, the beneficence of the butcher, 2005 01:26:02,114 --> 01:26:05,114 which is a quote from Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations, 2006 01:26:05,114 --> 01:26:09,114 which is the invisible hand thing where he says it's not from the beneficence – 2007 01:26:09,114 --> 01:26:13,114 excuse me, the benevolence of the butcher. 2008 01:26:13,114 --> 01:26:16,114 And then he has a long – there are a lot of dots to that. 2009 01:26:16,114 --> 01:26:18,114 He says a lot of things. 2010 01:26:18,114 --> 01:26:19,114 He has a lot of rhymes. 2011 01:26:19,114 --> 01:26:21,114 But basically, long story short, 2012 01:26:21,114 --> 01:26:24,114 he's saying that the reason that you eat and the reason that you survive, 2013 01:26:24,114 --> 01:26:27,114 it's not because those people are being nice to you. 2014 01:26:27,114 --> 01:26:30,114 They want to make money. 2015 01:26:30,114 --> 01:26:32,114 And restaurants – just go to New York. 2016 01:26:32,114 --> 01:26:35,114 The restaurants fail all the time. 2017 01:26:35,114 --> 01:26:37,114 They're constantly going bankrupt. 2018 01:26:37,114 --> 01:26:39,114 But you can get any food you want in New York. 2019 01:26:39,114 --> 01:26:42,114 You can get dollar pizza that literally costs one US dollar. 2020 01:26:42,114 --> 01:26:44,114 You can go to fancy restaurants. 2021 01:26:44,114 --> 01:26:47,114 You can get Cuban food. You can get Italian food. 2022 01:26:47,114 --> 01:26:49,114 You can get anything you want. You can get Polish food. 2023 01:26:49,114 --> 01:26:52,114 It's all there, and it's all cheap. 2024 01:26:52,114 --> 01:26:55,114 You can pay basically as much for food as you want. 2025 01:26:55,114 --> 01:26:59,114 You can choose how much you want to spend, and you can spend it on almost anything. 2026 01:26:59,114 --> 01:27:05,114 And there is no 256-bit security there. 2027 01:27:05,114 --> 01:27:08,114 There's nothing guaranteeing that you will have food. 2028 01:27:08,114 --> 01:27:11,114 But it's precisely because there's no guarantee, in fact. 2029 01:27:11,114 --> 01:27:16,114 It's precisely with the threat of bankruptcy that there's so much variety 2030 01:27:16,114 --> 01:27:19,114 and so much technical efficiency and how much – there's a phrase. 2031 01:27:19,114 --> 01:27:23,114 In economics, the phrase technical efficiency refers to producing something 2032 01:27:23,114 --> 01:27:25,114 at the lowest cost possible. 2033 01:27:25,114 --> 01:27:28,114 It doesn't have anything to do with like technical programming. 2034 01:27:28,114 --> 01:27:32,114 So there's a phrase technical efficiency, which is producing stuff, 2035 01:27:32,114 --> 01:27:37,114 and allocative efficiency, which is making sure that stuff goes to whoever wants it the most. 2036 01:27:37,114 --> 01:27:44,114 So we have this stuff in econ, and you rely on food every day and water and electricity, 2037 01:27:45,114 --> 01:27:49,114 and these things are provided to you by businesses that compete. 2038 01:27:49,114 --> 01:27:52,114 And your cars and stuff, you could buy a car. 2039 01:27:52,114 --> 01:27:55,114 You can get an Uber versus Lyft. 2040 01:27:55,114 --> 01:27:58,114 Even the individual Ubers compete to have a higher rating. 2041 01:27:58,114 --> 01:28:04,114 So there's all this stuff that you're trusting a lot of people like with your lives most of the time. 2042 01:28:04,114 --> 01:28:08,114 They could poison your food or prepare it badly. 2043 01:28:08,114 --> 01:28:12,114 Anytime you go on a highway, people could just crash into you and kill you. 2044 01:28:12,114 --> 01:28:19,114 There's no like 256-bit computer the size of the sun barrier to you being killed, 2045 01:28:19,114 --> 01:28:20,114 and people do. 2046 01:28:20,114 --> 01:28:24,114 30,000 people do die on the highway every year, 2047 01:28:24,114 --> 01:28:30,114 but way more people drive on any given trip down the highway. 2048 01:28:30,114 --> 01:28:31,114 You're probably fine. 2049 01:28:31,114 --> 01:28:33,114 Same with like flying in an airplane. 2050 01:28:33,114 --> 01:28:38,114 There's no guarantee that the pilot, other than him wanting that to die himself or something. 2051 01:28:39,114 --> 01:28:45,114 So there's this softer – my point is there's this softer thing that we were talking about before 2052 01:28:45,114 --> 01:28:48,114 that they're probably not comfortable with. 2053 01:28:48,114 --> 01:28:52,114 They probably think that it's not appropriate for them to back something 2054 01:28:52,114 --> 01:28:55,114 that might end up costing people their Bitcoin. 2055 01:28:55,114 --> 01:28:57,114 But I have a totally opposite view. 2056 01:28:57,114 --> 01:28:58,114 I say you build it. 2057 01:28:58,114 --> 01:29:03,114 You make it as good as you can, and then if people feel that the risk is worth it, 2058 01:29:03,114 --> 01:29:07,114 if they want to go over to like a Monero sidechain, that's their decision. 2059 01:29:07,114 --> 01:29:11,114 It's almost going to be like cool because since the DAO happened, 2060 01:29:11,114 --> 01:29:15,114 I don't really feel like any big sidechain is just going to like blow up 2061 01:29:15,114 --> 01:29:16,114 and get really big here. 2062 01:29:16,114 --> 01:29:19,114 It's going to really stick out. 2063 01:29:19,114 --> 01:29:20,114 Yes, a very good point. 2064 01:29:20,114 --> 01:29:21,114 And I say fragile. 2065 01:29:21,114 --> 01:29:28,114 Every single airline crash makes all airplane flights that happen after it more safe 2066 01:29:28,114 --> 01:29:30,114 because everyone stops what they're doing. 2067 01:29:30,114 --> 01:29:32,114 They find the black box. 2068 01:29:32,114 --> 01:29:36,114 They figure out what made the plane crash, and they fix it. 2069 01:29:36,114 --> 01:29:42,114 And so I think the DAO, and I think it's even better if it happens on a sidechain. 2070 01:29:42,114 --> 01:29:43,114 Sidechain fails. 2071 01:29:43,114 --> 01:29:47,114 People will figure out like, okay, maybe instead of making it three months, 2072 01:29:47,114 --> 01:29:49,114 they'll make it like two years or something. 2073 01:29:49,114 --> 01:29:50,114 I don't know. 2074 01:29:50,114 --> 01:29:51,114 Or maybe they'll make it less. 2075 01:29:51,114 --> 01:29:52,114 I have no idea. 2076 01:29:52,114 --> 01:29:54,114 But whatever it is, it will improve, I think. 2077 01:29:54,114 --> 01:29:56,114 It will tend to improve over time. 2078 01:29:56,114 --> 01:29:59,114 We kind of dropped off from construct. 2079 01:29:59,114 --> 01:30:01,114 I just want to ask some general questions. 2080 01:30:01,114 --> 01:30:03,114 Sure. 2081 01:30:04,114 --> 01:30:09,114 First off, what kind of topics were really popular as far as on stage? 2082 01:30:09,114 --> 01:30:12,114 Like, for instance, did Bitcoin Unlimited even come up? 2083 01:30:12,114 --> 01:30:14,114 Did Ethereum guys have a large presence? 2084 01:30:14,114 --> 01:30:16,114 Did the Dash people come out? 2085 01:30:16,114 --> 01:30:18,114 Yeah, well, that's a good point. 2086 01:30:18,114 --> 01:30:23,114 So there were general tracks, and then there were four. 2087 01:30:23,114 --> 01:30:25,114 It split into four. 2088 01:30:25,114 --> 01:30:28,114 And normally it only splits into two, so that was slightly unusual. 2089 01:30:28,114 --> 01:30:31,114 But it split into four, and there was basically a Bitcoin track. 2090 01:30:31,114 --> 01:30:33,114 There was basically an Ethereum track. 2091 01:30:33,114 --> 01:30:36,114 There was basically an – believe it or not, there was an R3 track. 2092 01:30:36,114 --> 01:30:40,114 They're still coming to events, huh? 2093 01:30:40,114 --> 01:30:42,114 Yeah, there was like a Corda thing. 2094 01:30:42,114 --> 01:30:44,114 And then there was a fourth track. 2095 01:30:44,114 --> 01:30:48,114 I kind of like – I don't know if I can find the thing if I had it in this. 2096 01:30:48,114 --> 01:30:50,114 Somewhere I had the schedule. 2097 01:30:50,114 --> 01:30:52,114 I don't know where it is. 2098 01:30:52,114 --> 01:30:54,114 I can't even remember the fourth. 2099 01:30:54,114 --> 01:30:55,114 Well, I have some stuff to say about that, 2100 01:30:55,114 --> 01:30:59,114 which is that everyone wants to suck R3's dick because they've got a lot of money. 2101 01:30:59,114 --> 01:31:01,114 That's basically the long and short of it. 2102 01:31:01,114 --> 01:31:03,114 Is Peter Todd still working there? 2103 01:31:03,114 --> 01:31:05,114 Oh, no. 2104 01:31:05,114 --> 01:31:07,114 In fact, they stiffed him. 2105 01:31:07,114 --> 01:31:09,114 They didn't even pay him for the work that he did. 2106 01:31:09,114 --> 01:31:10,114 Oh, yeah, yeah. 2107 01:31:10,114 --> 01:31:11,114 Because of Mike Hearn. 2108 01:31:11,114 --> 01:31:15,114 Because Mike Hearn is basically – Mike Hearn was angry, and he – 2109 01:31:15,114 --> 01:31:19,114 that's just when you get – that's what happens if you're at R3. 2110 01:31:19,114 --> 01:31:20,114 You get Mike Hearn. 2111 01:31:20,114 --> 01:31:21,114 You don't get Peter Todd. 2112 01:31:21,114 --> 01:31:22,114 Wait, wait, wait. 2113 01:31:22,114 --> 01:31:23,114 Hold on. 2114 01:31:23,114 --> 01:31:24,114 Real quick, real quick, real quick. 2115 01:31:24,114 --> 01:31:25,114 What's going on with Mike Hearn? 2116 01:31:26,114 --> 01:31:29,114 R3 and Peter Todd and shit. 2117 01:31:29,114 --> 01:31:30,114 Oh, well, I mean it's clear. 2118 01:31:30,114 --> 01:31:33,114 I mean almost everything can be – has been said publicly, I think. 2119 01:31:33,114 --> 01:31:35,114 It's just I don't know if you know the story. 2120 01:31:35,114 --> 01:31:43,114 So the story is Peter Todd was hired to do some architecture planning type work for R3. 2121 01:31:43,114 --> 01:31:48,114 Then Mike Hearn failed to get XT, and he rage quit 2122 01:31:48,114 --> 01:31:52,114 and then published a post saying that Bitcoin was a failed experiment 2123 01:31:52,114 --> 01:31:54,114 and everyone – Bitcoin sucks and stuff. 2124 01:31:54,114 --> 01:31:57,114 And the price dropped like $540. 2125 01:31:57,114 --> 01:32:02,114 But before he did that, he told the R3 people that he was going to do this. 2126 01:32:02,114 --> 01:32:06,114 And so then Charlie Cooper with his amazing cufflinks and shirts 2127 01:32:06,114 --> 01:32:11,114 and his amazing Gordon Gekko haircut was at – what was it called? 2128 01:32:11,114 --> 01:32:13,114 I think it was a – what was it, a Brookings Group? 2129 01:32:13,114 --> 01:32:21,114 I think it was a Brookings Group big academic kind of roundtable about blockchain technology. 2130 01:32:21,114 --> 01:32:24,114 And then he presented to everyone about how blockchain, the technology, 2131 01:32:24,114 --> 01:32:27,114 could be separated from the currency Bitcoin. 2132 01:32:27,114 --> 01:32:31,114 And that Mike Hearn – they had hired Mike Hearn 2133 01:32:31,114 --> 01:32:33,114 and Mike Hearn said that Bitcoin was a failed experiment, 2134 01:32:33,114 --> 01:32:35,114 but the real thing was going to be blockchain. 2135 01:32:35,114 --> 01:32:38,114 So that is kind of like the R3 kickoff thing. 2136 01:32:38,114 --> 01:32:45,114 As you may know, and as anyone who reads the Bitcoin dev mailing list will know, 2137 01:32:45,114 --> 01:32:48,114 Mike Hearn and Peter Todd basically hate each other. 2138 01:32:48,114 --> 01:32:55,114 And Mike Hearn showed up at R3 and basically that is exactly the same moment 2139 01:32:55,114 --> 01:32:58,114 that Peter Todd stopped working for R3 and then they didn't pay him. 2140 01:32:58,114 --> 01:33:02,114 So I fill in the gaps, read between the lines. 2141 01:33:02,114 --> 01:33:06,114 So was Mike Hearn present at Construct if R3 – 2142 01:33:06,114 --> 01:33:08,114 No, I didn't see him there. No. 2143 01:33:08,114 --> 01:33:11,114 When's the last time Hearn has been seen publicly at one of these events? 2144 01:33:11,114 --> 01:33:14,114 That's a good point. I have not seen him publicly in a really long time. 2145 01:33:14,114 --> 01:33:16,114 I don't think he's coming out after he quit. 2146 01:33:16,114 --> 01:33:19,114 Yeah, that's it for us. 2147 01:33:19,114 --> 01:33:23,114 Yeah, well, maybe – is he still alive even? 2148 01:33:23,114 --> 01:33:26,114 Maybe, you never know. 2149 01:33:26,114 --> 01:33:29,114 Is that your favorite conspiracy, Paul, that Mike Hearn has done? 2150 01:33:29,114 --> 01:33:38,114 Yeah, that Mike Hearn was an actor hired by Peter Todd. 2151 01:33:38,114 --> 01:33:41,114 He was an actor hired by Peter Todd to test the security of Bitcoin. 2152 01:33:42,114 --> 01:33:49,114 And now Peter Todd got sick of paying his salary, so they disappeared him into R3. 2153 01:33:49,114 --> 01:33:54,114 They pranked R3 on the way out as if – yeah, so I don't know. 2154 01:33:54,114 --> 01:33:56,114 That's my theory. 2155 01:33:56,114 --> 01:34:00,114 Yeah, Peter R also hired by Peter Todd. 2156 01:34:00,114 --> 01:34:02,114 Peter Todd is just hiring everyone. 2157 01:34:02,114 --> 01:34:04,114 He's got a big bankroll. Peter Todd is Satoshi. 2158 01:34:04,114 --> 01:34:08,114 He's got a lot of money. He's hiring these people to pretend to be – 2159 01:34:08,114 --> 01:34:11,114 They really work for – everyone works for Peter Todd though. 2160 01:34:11,114 --> 01:34:12,114 They're all actors. 2161 01:34:12,114 --> 01:34:14,114 I'm already convinced. 2162 01:34:14,114 --> 01:34:19,114 He has a fine arts acting background. 2163 01:34:19,114 --> 01:34:25,114 Peter Todd has a degree in bachelors in – I think he has a master's in fine arts. 2164 01:34:25,114 --> 01:34:29,114 He has a bachelor's in fine arts if he does not have a – 2165 01:34:29,114 --> 01:34:32,114 Are you saying fine arts? 2166 01:34:32,114 --> 01:34:34,114 Fine arts, my friend. 2167 01:34:34,114 --> 01:34:36,114 Oh, okay. 2168 01:34:36,114 --> 01:34:41,114 Yeah, as a violin player, you should know about the fine arts degrees. 2169 01:34:41,114 --> 01:34:45,114 Well, Mr. Minor in music plays the piano. 2170 01:34:45,114 --> 01:34:47,114 I do, yeah. 2171 01:34:47,114 --> 01:34:50,114 I've got my keyboard over there. 2172 01:34:50,114 --> 01:34:51,114 Nice. 2173 01:34:51,114 --> 01:34:53,114 I was playing earlier today. 2174 01:34:53,114 --> 01:34:54,114 I was practicing. 2175 01:34:54,114 --> 01:34:58,114 You've got something crazy from Construct. 2176 01:34:58,114 --> 01:35:00,114 Construct, anything dramatic? 2177 01:35:00,114 --> 01:35:02,114 Well, it was really cold of course. 2178 01:35:03,114 --> 01:35:07,114 So no, I was going to try and – I was trying to go there because R3 is there, 2179 01:35:07,114 --> 01:35:13,114 and I think R3 – I think Coindesk is willing to sell influence, 2180 01:35:13,114 --> 01:35:17,114 and I think R3 is buying, and I think that's like the story there. 2181 01:35:17,114 --> 01:35:22,114 So I have no proof of any of that, but I think they basically – R3 has got a lot of money, 2182 01:35:22,114 --> 01:35:26,114 and so everyone is afraid to tell them that they suck, which they absolutely do. 2183 01:35:26,114 --> 01:35:28,114 What exactly do you think they're going to be buying? 2184 01:35:28,114 --> 01:35:30,114 They want like Coindesk to like feature them. 2185 01:35:30,114 --> 01:35:32,114 They want to feature their tech. 2186 01:35:32,114 --> 01:35:35,114 Because think about the way R3 works. 2187 01:35:35,114 --> 01:35:40,114 They get paid if they get subscribers, banks to subscribe. 2188 01:35:40,114 --> 01:35:44,114 And so they need to cast this illusion that they're on the cutting edge. 2189 01:35:44,114 --> 01:35:47,114 And I say illusion because, of course, they're not actually on the cutting edge. 2190 01:35:47,114 --> 01:35:48,114 Oh, there was a Hyperledger. 2191 01:35:48,114 --> 01:35:50,114 The fourth track was like a lot of Hyperledger stuff. 2192 01:35:50,114 --> 01:35:52,114 Hyperledger. 2193 01:35:52,114 --> 01:35:54,114 That's my favorite blockchain. 2194 01:35:54,114 --> 01:35:55,114 Yeah. 2195 01:35:55,114 --> 01:35:57,114 Proof of a legend at the time. 2196 01:35:57,114 --> 01:36:02,114 Has there been any news at all that anybody, just a little off topic here, about Ripple? 2197 01:36:02,114 --> 01:36:04,114 I haven't heard anything about Ripple. 2198 01:36:04,114 --> 01:36:06,114 I haven't heard from them in a while. 2199 01:36:06,114 --> 01:36:08,114 Yeah, there's still like number four or something. 2200 01:36:08,114 --> 01:36:11,114 Like where's the deal with that? 2201 01:36:11,114 --> 01:36:18,114 So the whole thing with Coindesk featuring Ripple – or sorry, CoinMarketCap. 2202 01:36:18,114 --> 01:36:23,114 I don't think – so the one thing is CoinMarketCap doesn't just feature blockchain ideas. 2203 01:36:23,114 --> 01:36:26,114 They feature cryptocurrencies. 2204 01:36:26,114 --> 01:36:28,114 Why is Ripple still – I mean how is Ripple still number three? 2205 01:36:28,114 --> 01:36:29,114 What's going on? 2206 01:36:29,114 --> 01:36:31,114 No one ever hears anything about it. 2207 01:36:31,114 --> 01:36:32,114 It has a lot of volume. 2208 01:36:32,114 --> 01:36:35,114 I mean I hear nothing about it doing anything. 2209 01:36:35,114 --> 01:36:36,114 Nobody's signed up. 2210 01:36:36,114 --> 01:36:37,114 No big banks. 2211 01:36:37,114 --> 01:36:38,114 So how is it – 2212 01:36:38,114 --> 01:36:39,114 It's a different course. 2213 01:36:39,114 --> 01:36:44,114 Maybe it actually has like wonderful technology and users that we just never hear about. 2214 01:36:44,114 --> 01:36:46,114 I doubt it though. 2215 01:36:46,114 --> 01:36:47,114 I don't know what their deal is. 2216 01:36:47,114 --> 01:36:48,114 But the point is – 2217 01:36:48,114 --> 01:36:50,114 Iterative consensus. 2218 01:36:50,114 --> 01:36:52,114 Weird shit. 2219 01:36:52,114 --> 01:36:56,114 Didn't even use a token until like blockchain ideas got popular. 2220 01:36:56,114 --> 01:36:58,114 Oh my god, yeah. 2221 01:36:58,114 --> 01:37:03,114 Well, Ripple used to be a totally different thing, and then it had an altcoin after that. 2222 01:37:03,114 --> 01:37:06,114 Wasn't that the guy who turned it up on Docs? 2223 01:37:06,114 --> 01:37:09,114 Yes, that is correct. 2224 01:37:09,114 --> 01:37:13,114 And Jed actually – so he had some great ideas once upon a time. 2225 01:37:13,114 --> 01:37:17,114 But in particular, Greg Maxwell, if you want some old drama. 2226 01:37:17,114 --> 01:37:21,114 Greg Maxwell was very annoyed that Ripple changed to something. 2227 01:37:21,114 --> 01:37:33,114 It used to be like a big consecutive loans, six degrees of separation type thing, like a credit thing, like a friendship credit graph of some kind. 2228 01:37:33,114 --> 01:37:39,114 And then they added this altcoin thing to it that you would burn fees on. 2229 01:37:39,114 --> 01:37:44,114 And Greg Maxwell was very angry that they did this without changing the name. 2230 01:37:44,114 --> 01:37:50,114 So he went back and changed all of his posts that recommended Ripple to say that he no longer recommended it. 2231 01:37:50,114 --> 01:37:52,114 On BitcoinTalk.org. 2232 01:37:52,114 --> 01:38:00,114 And then he posted about how that wasn't – his endorsement was not given to Ripple so that they could reuse it without his permission and whatever. 2233 01:38:00,114 --> 01:38:08,114 Oh, but then Peter Todd posted about how Ripple is de facto centralized because of the list that tells you who's on the list. 2234 01:38:08,114 --> 01:38:12,114 It's circular logic. There's a list that tells you who to check. 2235 01:38:12,114 --> 01:38:14,114 And he argues that – 2236 01:38:14,114 --> 01:38:16,114 List? 2237 01:38:17,114 --> 01:38:23,114 To find out who is on the list, you have to consult the list, and Peter Todd thereby proved that it was centralized. 2238 01:38:23,114 --> 01:38:26,114 And then Stellar copied Ripple, if you remember. 2239 01:38:26,114 --> 01:38:28,114 Yeah. 2240 01:38:28,114 --> 01:38:33,114 If you remember that. And then it exploded immediately. It just exploded. 2241 01:38:33,114 --> 01:38:38,114 So Ripple still has – they have infinite creation, right? 2242 01:38:38,114 --> 01:38:43,114 No, Ripple has whatever. It starts with whatever, a billion, and then it counts down as they're slowing down. 2243 01:38:44,114 --> 01:38:50,114 They have a distribution model where they're going to give away like 75% of the Ripple. They just haven't figured out exactly how yet. 2244 01:38:50,114 --> 01:38:55,114 Yeah. See, that kind of goes full circle. This is what I was really concerned about when I was reading Satoshi's white paper. 2245 01:38:55,114 --> 01:38:59,114 So it's actually very relevant. So it's actually very interesting I think. 2246 01:38:59,114 --> 01:39:06,114 But the point is that you can make a Ripple sidechain anyway. So you can just switch that over. 2247 01:39:06,114 --> 01:39:12,114 Hey Mike, do you want to finish up on HiveMine and wrap this up? We're going on like two hours. 2248 01:39:12,114 --> 01:39:16,114 Sure. Sure. Yeah. Do you want to tell us a little bit about HiveMine, Paul? 2249 01:39:16,114 --> 01:39:22,114 Well, I wrote it all down so that – frankly, to avoid the Vitalik problem of like being assassinated. 2250 01:39:22,114 --> 01:39:25,114 So it's all written down on BitcoinHiveMine.com. 2251 01:39:25,114 --> 01:39:28,114 P-O-L-V. Proof of Life of Vitalik. 2252 01:39:28,114 --> 01:39:38,114 Yeah. Proof of Living Friendship with Vitalik. That's what it should be. P-O-L-F-T-H-I-V-I-L-I-K. 2253 01:39:38,114 --> 01:39:40,114 Oh, yeah. 2254 01:39:40,114 --> 01:39:48,114 Proof of Living Friendship with Vitalik. So to avoid that, to avoid Proof of Living Friendship with Vitalik, I wrote it all down. 2255 01:39:48,114 --> 01:39:51,114 So you can read all about it on BitcoinHiveMine.com. 2256 01:39:51,114 --> 01:39:54,114 But the long story short is that it's a peer-to-peer oracle. 2257 01:39:54,114 --> 01:39:58,114 So you need to get some information. And I get it peer-to-peer. 2258 01:39:58,114 --> 01:40:01,886 So you need to get some information like what is the Bitcoin exchange rate or did Donald Trump win. 2259 01:40:01,886 --> 01:40:05,886 The 2016 election. And I get that peer-to-peer. And it will take a little while to explain exactly how I do that. 2260 01:40:05,886 --> 01:40:14,886 But the point is I do it without a third party. So it doesn't matter if the people who are currently deciding that are all assassinated or thrown in prison. 2261 01:40:14,886 --> 01:40:19,886 Or if their identities are hidden, the network will recover just like Bitcoin recovers. 2262 01:40:19,886 --> 01:40:24,886 And so there will be no way ultimately to stop the information from being… 2263 01:40:25,886 --> 01:40:32,886 So like just real high notes, what are the key differentiators from like Augur and how they determine… 2264 01:40:32,886 --> 01:40:40,886 So on the BitcoinHiveMine.com website, there is in fact a blog that has maybe six or so posts. 2265 01:40:40,886 --> 01:40:44,886 And one of those is The Case Against Augur. That's the title of the post. 2266 01:40:44,886 --> 01:40:54,886 And I described the long history. So I was talking before in 2014. I published the paper and I met the people who would later become Augur in about April of 2014. 2267 01:40:54,886 --> 01:40:59,886 And I was sort of helping them while I had my own other job. And I was helping a number of people. 2268 01:40:59,886 --> 01:41:05,886 This included – like one of them was Zach Hess. One of them was Augur people. 2269 01:41:05,886 --> 01:41:11,886 One of them was this guy from – this like Russian guy. And the other one was this – there was another guy. 2270 01:41:11,886 --> 01:41:17,886 Two Ethereum people, Casey Datrio, he was a pretty smart guy. 2271 01:41:17,886 --> 01:41:21,886 But so there were a bunch of people who liked the idea and they were kind of working on it. 2272 01:41:21,886 --> 01:41:27,886 So I published it in early – in January 2014. And I kind of published it. 2273 01:41:27,886 --> 01:41:30,886 I didn't really kind of circulated it around Bitcoin talk later. 2274 01:41:30,886 --> 01:41:35,886 Goren posted it. He was really helpful in getting the word out early on. 2275 01:41:36,886 --> 01:41:40,886 He posted it out like in February 1st or something. 2276 01:41:40,886 --> 01:41:45,886 And so then some people contacted me. We set up the forum and stuff. 2277 01:41:45,886 --> 01:41:50,886 People – and they were interested in it. And so one of those people was the Augur people. 2278 01:41:50,886 --> 01:41:55,886 But they were kind of annoying to deal with sort of. They were just a little – it was fine. 2279 01:41:55,886 --> 01:41:59,886 I was happy to help everyone, but I thought they were a little slow in doing it. 2280 01:41:59,886 --> 01:42:04,886 And so Vitalik kind of showed up and captured them. And he was like, oh, this is a great project. 2281 01:42:04,886 --> 01:42:09,886 He got them to move it to Ethereum and got them to do – plan to do an ICO. 2282 01:42:09,886 --> 01:42:13,886 And those were two things for me that I was like, that's like totally stupid. 2283 01:42:13,886 --> 01:42:17,886 Deal breaker. It will ruin – both of those would kill the project. 2284 01:42:17,886 --> 01:42:22,886 And in fact, Augur can't – it can't really operate on Ethereum for technical reasons that we could discuss. 2285 01:42:22,886 --> 01:42:25,886 But I mean one of them is the gas costs are outrageous. 2286 01:42:25,886 --> 01:42:29,886 Like you can't even do like a simple slot machine without it costing like huge amounts of money. 2287 01:42:29,886 --> 01:42:34,886 But another thing is that there's a more fundamental problem. 2288 01:42:34,886 --> 01:42:40,886 I mean there are many fundamental problems, but there is a fundamental problem with the design that makes it un – 2289 01:42:40,886 --> 01:42:43,886 which is kind of what I was talking about before with the sidechains, 2290 01:42:43,886 --> 01:42:46,886 someone building a sidechain specifically to attack another sidechain, 2291 01:42:46,886 --> 01:42:50,886 which is exactly what you are allowed to do on Ethereum, 2292 01:42:50,886 --> 01:42:53,886 which is one of the things that makes Ethereum ridiculous, one of the many things. 2293 01:42:53,886 --> 01:42:57,886 I mean there's a giant list. So there's a lot to say about that. 2294 01:42:57,886 --> 01:43:00,886 But basically Vitalik captured them and brought them to Ethereum, 2295 01:43:00,886 --> 01:43:03,886 and I just totally allowed that to happen. 2296 01:43:03,886 --> 01:43:10,886 And I kind of encouraged it in sort of moderately sneaky ways by like kind of pretending I didn't like it, 2297 01:43:10,886 --> 01:43:13,886 but not really pretending enough or something. 2298 01:43:13,886 --> 01:43:17,886 And so I kind of just like let that happen. 2299 01:43:17,886 --> 01:43:22,886 And then I tried to convince people not to invest in the crowd sale, but some people did anyway, 2300 01:43:22,886 --> 01:43:29,886 including Eric Voorhees, because Eric Voorhees loves to just destroy capital by making malinvestments, 2301 01:43:29,886 --> 01:43:36,886 because he thinks that anything that's invested in anything is legitimate capital, but that's obviously ridiculous. 2302 01:43:37,886 --> 01:43:43,886 Sorry, I was going to say, this is Augur, Tony. You're talking about Augur, right? 2303 01:43:43,886 --> 01:43:44,886 Yes, yes. 2304 01:43:44,886 --> 01:43:51,886 I was going to ask you about Tony Sokic, who gave a presentation at my meetup. 2305 01:43:51,886 --> 01:43:56,886 Right before he lost his mind. 2306 01:43:56,886 --> 01:44:00,886 Whoa, whoa. Hold on. Tony's a friend, man. 2307 01:44:00,886 --> 01:44:04,886 The event is to not be recalled. 2308 01:44:04,886 --> 01:44:07,886 Oh, really? Oh, well, I guess we're not recalling it then. 2309 01:44:07,886 --> 01:44:08,886 Yeah. 2310 01:44:08,886 --> 01:44:11,886 It definitely is not in Bitcoin Uncensored episode. Save me, Dr. 2311 01:44:11,886 --> 01:44:15,886 Whoa, whoa, whoa. I think it is now. 2312 01:44:15,886 --> 01:44:17,886 All right. 2313 01:44:17,886 --> 01:44:22,886 I feel bad. Marketing people did a pretty good job at Augur. They did a pretty good job. They really did. 2314 01:44:22,886 --> 01:44:26,886 They did too good a job because they marketed like a giant bubble. 2315 01:44:26,886 --> 01:44:31,886 There you go. We're promoting Tony and his endeavors. 2316 01:44:31,886 --> 01:44:34,886 Yeah, and a lot of people were just brainwashed by Vitalik. 2317 01:44:34,886 --> 01:44:38,886 There are only a few kind of malicious actors at Augur. 2318 01:44:38,886 --> 01:44:43,886 But it's just like what Bitcoin Uncensored guys say, where it's like people just don't know. 2319 01:44:43,886 --> 01:44:46,886 They don't know that they're running a scam. They really don't know. 2320 01:44:46,886 --> 01:44:51,886 They really have no idea, which is bizarre, but true nonetheless. 2321 01:44:51,886 --> 01:44:55,886 So is Hivemind actively up and running and working? 2322 01:44:55,886 --> 01:44:58,886 Yeah, so we made so much progress on it that I switched to the sidechains. 2323 01:44:59,886 --> 01:45:05,886 Progress on Hivemind way outstripped progress on the underlying sidechains technology itself. 2324 01:45:05,886 --> 01:45:09,886 So since Blockstream basically stopped working on it, which is really annoying, 2325 01:45:09,886 --> 01:45:17,886 and it kind of put Sergio and I in a weird – because Sergio also planned on using it, the sidechains technology. 2326 01:45:17,886 --> 01:45:19,886 Sergio had Rootstock, if that wasn't clear. 2327 01:45:19,886 --> 01:45:21,886 Yeah. 2328 01:45:21,886 --> 01:45:23,886 And so we kind of had to work on it. 2329 01:45:23,886 --> 01:45:26,886 I mean I basically worked on it, and that's basically what I was doing. 2330 01:45:26,886 --> 01:45:31,886 I've been doing that for – been totally focused on that because it's taken on a new relevance 2331 01:45:31,886 --> 01:45:38,886 with its potential ability to resolve some of the scaling problems. 2332 01:45:38,886 --> 01:45:44,886 So I think it's like way more important for Bitcoin to have sidechains than it is for me to do my little project. 2333 01:45:44,886 --> 01:45:50,886 But I think my project is also awesome because it's like does a lot of really cool stuff. 2334 01:45:50,886 --> 01:45:57,886 One of the awesome things it does kind of in a Bitcoin uncensored vein is that it lets you short anything. 2335 01:45:57,886 --> 01:46:03,886 So currently you can invest in anything if you call up the CEO and offer them money. 2336 01:46:03,886 --> 01:46:06,886 Usually you can do it at some price. 2337 01:46:06,886 --> 01:46:09,886 But what this does is it lets you bet against something. 2338 01:46:09,886 --> 01:46:12,886 You can say Ethereum will have a price of zero five years from now. 2339 01:46:12,886 --> 01:46:14,886 You can bet on that. 2340 01:46:14,886 --> 01:46:16,886 So you can basically bet against Ethereum in the future. 2341 01:46:16,886 --> 01:46:21,886 And as long as there are arbitrageurs today who are willing to – it's kind of annoying 2342 01:46:21,886 --> 01:46:29,886 because this is all blown up by the fact that the exchanges are insolvent so often, 2343 01:46:29,886 --> 01:46:31,886 and I realize this is a complex tangent. 2344 01:46:31,886 --> 01:46:37,886 But long story short, you can short things even without the exchange enabling shorting. 2345 01:46:37,886 --> 01:46:45,886 So it can bring down today's Ethereum price even without the ability to actually short at a site. 2346 01:46:45,886 --> 01:46:50,886 So you can basically deflate any Ponzi scheme by just making a prediction market 2347 01:46:50,886 --> 01:46:53,886 that the scheme will collapse and betting against it. 2348 01:46:53,886 --> 01:47:01,886 Something very similar happened with PirateF40 where Matthew Wright offered to bet people that it wasn't a Ponzi. 2349 01:47:01,886 --> 01:47:02,886 Some people took him. 2350 01:47:02,886 --> 01:47:03,886 Yeah, I remember. 2351 01:47:03,886 --> 01:47:11,886 And I pointed out at the time that it was a very smart thing to do to invest with Pirate and bet. 2352 01:47:11,886 --> 01:47:14,886 Yeah, right. You could get free money by doing that. 2353 01:47:14,886 --> 01:47:21,886 And I think some people actually did that, which was unfortunate because the big lesson of everything, 2354 01:47:21,886 --> 01:47:31,886 of Finance 2008, Bitcoin, and all exchanges, which is that don't trust the third party, which was Matthew. 2355 01:47:31,886 --> 01:47:34,886 So the point is he ultimately didn't pay. 2356 01:47:34,886 --> 01:47:36,886 He bet people, but he ultimately didn't pay. 2357 01:47:36,886 --> 01:47:40,886 I don't know if he refunded their money, but he didn't double their money. 2358 01:47:40,886 --> 01:47:41,886 He didn't say, I'll bet. 2359 01:47:41,886 --> 01:47:43,886 He bet people that Pirate wasn't a scammer. 2360 01:47:43,886 --> 01:47:45,886 He turned out to be a scammer. 2361 01:47:45,886 --> 01:47:47,886 Then he didn't pay the bet. 2362 01:47:47,886 --> 01:47:51,886 Oops, so I advised people about this. 2363 01:47:51,886 --> 01:47:55,886 He only had the game. That's a smart contract. 2364 01:47:55,886 --> 01:48:02,886 Yeah, it would have been nice if it were a trustless smart contract, which it could have been with Hivemind. 2365 01:48:02,886 --> 01:48:05,886 But Hivemind can do a lot of cool things. 2366 01:48:05,886 --> 01:48:08,886 The whole point of Hivemind, and I kind of written some of this down, 2367 01:48:08,886 --> 01:48:09,886 but I really want to finish this. 2368 01:48:09,886 --> 01:48:11,886 One of the main things I have to write down. 2369 01:48:11,886 --> 01:48:16,886 I have to write down something why the prediction market price is always right, which it always is, 2370 01:48:16,886 --> 01:48:18,886 which is something that people find extraordinary. 2371 01:48:18,886 --> 01:48:24,886 But I brought it up when I was talking to Chris and Josh on the Election Day episode, 2372 01:48:24,886 --> 01:48:26,886 and it's a simple proof that it is always correct. 2373 01:48:26,886 --> 01:48:28,886 It's always the most optimally accurate. 2374 01:48:28,886 --> 01:48:33,886 So it's like a prediction market on what heads or tails, what a coin flip will be. 2375 01:48:33,886 --> 01:48:34,886 Will it be heads? 2376 01:48:35,886 --> 01:48:41,886 It might say 50%, so you have to decide if that's your definition of right or not. 2377 01:48:41,886 --> 01:48:44,886 But it is. It's the correct definition of right. 2378 01:48:44,886 --> 01:48:45,886 I mean, because you don't know. 2379 01:48:45,886 --> 01:48:48,886 When the coin is in the air, you don't know whether or not it's going to be heads or tails. 2380 01:48:48,886 --> 01:48:53,886 So the correct answer is to say that it's a 50% chance of being heads. 2381 01:48:53,886 --> 01:48:56,886 That is the right answer to that question. 2382 01:48:56,886 --> 01:49:03,886 But some people want it to be magically whatever the final result is somehow. 2383 01:49:04,886 --> 01:49:10,886 Some information that just doesn't exist, but all the information that does exist is aggregated in a liquid prediction market. 2384 01:49:10,886 --> 01:49:16,886 So I have to write that, but then I have to write my vision, the whole reason that I'm doing this project. 2385 01:49:16,886 --> 01:49:22,886 And there's a lot of intermediate goals that I'm accomplishing along the way, which are really important. 2386 01:49:22,886 --> 01:49:28,886 But the whole point of prediction markets really is to inform collective action decisions, 2387 01:49:28,886 --> 01:49:36,886 which is to say voting on congressmen, really, more than anything else. 2388 01:49:36,886 --> 01:49:40,886 But congressmen and presidents and voting on the CEO. 2389 01:49:40,886 --> 01:49:42,886 Well, voting on the board of directors, really. 2390 01:49:42,886 --> 01:49:44,886 So shareholders vote on the board of directors. 2391 01:49:44,886 --> 01:49:46,886 The board of directors picks the CEO. 2392 01:49:46,886 --> 01:49:48,886 The CEO picks the C-suite. 2393 01:49:48,886 --> 01:49:52,886 And then everyone else hires their subordinates down in a big pyramid. 2394 01:49:52,886 --> 01:49:55,886 How does the initial Oracle – all right, sorry. 2395 01:49:55,886 --> 01:50:00,886 But honestly, how does the initial Oracle group get selected for this? 2396 01:50:00,886 --> 01:50:02,886 Oh, that's a good question. 2397 01:50:02,886 --> 01:50:09,886 So yeah, I'm playing with a couple ideas for that because it's different from Bitcoin. 2398 01:50:09,886 --> 01:50:15,886 Bitcoin had this problem of how do you get rid of this money, which is like Ripple is struggling with it right now. 2399 01:50:15,886 --> 01:50:20,886 If Ripple were really valuable, all the Ripple people would be like – they would be vitalized, right? 2400 01:50:20,886 --> 01:50:25,886 They'd be killed because they have like the equivalent of like hundreds of billions of dollars or whatever worth of – 2401 01:50:25,886 --> 01:50:27,886 I mean you can't liquidate it. 2402 01:50:27,886 --> 01:50:33,886 I mean pretty much the reason why Ripple has such a high market cap is because so much of it is locked up and has some value. 2403 01:50:33,886 --> 01:50:34,886 That's what I mean. 2404 01:50:34,886 --> 01:50:39,886 So like if it had legitimate value, people would like – if it had like inherent value of some kind, 2405 01:50:39,886 --> 01:50:44,886 people would go to those people who have all of it and take – but this is a different problem. 2406 01:50:44,886 --> 01:50:46,886 It's not quite the same. 2407 01:50:46,886 --> 01:50:52,886 So it's more like a corporation is being created and you have to give away the initial shares, 2408 01:50:52,886 --> 01:51:00,886 and it doesn't matter – it really doesn't matter that you don't actually – 2409 01:51:00,886 --> 01:51:05,886 you could theoretically give them all to one person, but of course I'm not going to do that. 2410 01:51:05,886 --> 01:51:09,886 But the point is not so much that there are many different decision makers, 2411 01:51:09,886 --> 01:51:14,886 but the point is just that the network would regenerate if the decision makers are eliminated. 2412 01:51:14,886 --> 01:51:17,886 And you're talking about these are like vote coins that you're – 2413 01:51:17,886 --> 01:51:23,886 Yes. So I'm kind of playing with letting the miners have them because I think that's simple, 2414 01:51:23,886 --> 01:51:28,886 and that's a nice way of making sure that I – I don't want to like benefit too much, 2415 01:51:28,886 --> 01:51:30,886 and of course I wouldn't actually be – Roger funded the project, 2416 01:51:30,886 --> 01:51:35,886 so like any money that is raised would go to him. 2417 01:51:35,886 --> 01:51:39,886 But this would be something like an ICO, but it would be – 2418 01:51:39,886 --> 01:51:42,886 I would strip out all the things with the ICO that I hate, which are many. 2419 01:51:42,886 --> 01:51:47,886 And the most important is of course that the ICO – all the money is paid in advance, 2420 01:51:47,886 --> 01:51:49,886 and no one does any of the work. That's the thing I hate about it the most. 2421 01:51:49,886 --> 01:51:53,886 So I would wait until all the work is basically done, or at least enough of it is done, 2422 01:51:53,886 --> 01:51:55,886 like a Bitcoin comparable level. 2423 01:51:55,886 --> 01:51:58,886 And do you need a Drivechain for this to be implemented or no? 2424 01:51:58,886 --> 01:52:03,886 Yeah, I would need it – so the interesting thing is that one thing that I think confuses people, 2425 01:52:03,886 --> 01:52:06,886 which is unfortunate, is that this is a gift. 2426 01:52:06,886 --> 01:52:10,886 It's my gift to the Bitcoin community, and my and Roger's gifts, 2427 01:52:10,886 --> 01:52:14,886 because he paid the developers, the serious developers. 2428 01:52:14,886 --> 01:52:17,886 I was just doing the academic developing. 2429 01:52:17,886 --> 01:52:22,886 So it's a gift to the Bitcoin world in that if you want to use this in the markets, 2430 01:52:22,886 --> 01:52:26,886 you do that with Bitcoin, and you never need to interact with these vote coins at all. 2431 01:52:26,886 --> 01:52:31,886 So I think there's a big confusion about what they would represent and why they're necessary. 2432 01:52:31,886 --> 01:52:37,886 And a good metaphor is this like corporation type thing. 2433 01:52:37,886 --> 01:52:43,886 So you don't want to – sidechains prevent you from having to use a different currency in every store. 2434 01:52:43,886 --> 01:52:47,886 So you've got like US dollars, but then if you wanted to go to Walmart, 2435 01:52:47,886 --> 01:52:49,886 you might need to buy like Walmart dollars or something. 2436 01:52:49,886 --> 01:52:55,886 And then if you wanted to go to Dunkin' Donuts, you might need to go to Dunkin' Donut cash or something like that. 2437 01:52:55,886 --> 01:52:58,886 That's ridiculous, and that's what sidechains try to stop from happening. 2438 01:52:58,886 --> 01:53:01,886 You don't want to have Walmart bucks. 2439 01:53:01,886 --> 01:53:04,886 You don't want to have like whatever. 2440 01:53:04,886 --> 01:53:09,886 I don't know another – like Amazon.com dollars that float. 2441 01:53:09,886 --> 01:53:11,886 They're not US dollars. They have like a floating exchange rate. 2442 01:53:11,886 --> 01:53:14,886 You don't want to have something like that. That's ridiculous. 2443 01:53:14,886 --> 01:53:21,886 But what is happening in this case is that there are like owner-operators of something like a metaphorical corporation of some kind, 2444 01:53:21,886 --> 01:53:25,886 and that is a totally different dimension. 2445 01:53:25,886 --> 01:53:27,886 And those are like the people supplying a service. 2446 01:53:27,886 --> 01:53:29,886 They are like employees. 2447 01:53:29,886 --> 01:53:35,886 So the reason they – there's like a lot of details that I could go into. 2448 01:53:35,886 --> 01:53:41,886 But if you just want to shop at this store, you can do that with Bitcoin. 2449 01:53:41,886 --> 01:53:45,886 If you want to create a market, you can do that with Bitcoin. 2450 01:53:45,886 --> 01:53:49,886 If you want to bet in the markets, you can do that with Bitcoin. 2451 01:53:49,886 --> 01:53:51,886 You do Bitcoin for like all the stuff. 2452 01:53:51,886 --> 01:53:56,886 It's still Bitcoin, but there is this other thing to solve the Oracle problem, 2453 01:53:56,886 --> 01:54:05,886 which is that you need to give people an incentive to report accurately and to benefit as a result of the system becoming more or less reliable. 2454 01:54:05,886 --> 01:54:08,886 So there's the second thing. 2455 01:54:08,886 --> 01:54:13,886 So it almost – it doesn't really – I try to tell people that it doesn't really matter what happens with the Volcoins. 2456 01:54:13,886 --> 01:54:18,886 You mean like if someone would just buy them all up is what you're saying? 2457 01:54:18,886 --> 01:54:27,886 I think the one thing that I might just – or I might just hold many of them on Roger's behalf, or Roger might auction. 2458 01:54:27,886 --> 01:54:37,886 He might do like an ICO type thing, but it would be a lot of the stuff about ICOs that I hate we would remove, which is a lot of the stuff about ICOs. 2459 01:54:37,886 --> 01:54:40,886 So it would be like I hate calling it an ICO, but there's like no other phrase. 2460 01:54:40,886 --> 01:54:42,886 It wouldn't really matter though. 2461 01:54:43,886 --> 01:54:49,886 The point I'm trying to make is that the Volcoins themselves earn dividends sort of like a metaphorical stock. 2462 01:54:49,886 --> 01:54:53,886 They don't really earn dividends, but they earn a cut of the revenue. 2463 01:54:53,886 --> 01:54:56,886 They're compensated for reporting honestly. 2464 01:54:56,886 --> 01:55:00,886 Are you really – like maybe – I don't think of it this way. 2465 01:55:00,886 --> 01:55:06,886 What efficiency are you with Hivemind versus just a company that's trusted or whatever? 2466 01:55:06,886 --> 01:55:09,886 Is it really decentralized? 2467 01:55:09,886 --> 01:55:12,886 Yeah, there are a couple ways of talking about that. 2468 01:55:12,886 --> 01:55:17,886 So the first is that – I mean that's almost a conversation all in itself. 2469 01:55:17,886 --> 01:55:22,886 But I'm just going to briefly skip over a lot of the less important parts. 2470 01:55:22,886 --> 01:55:29,886 You don't want to have – if it's going to use Bitcoin, someone has to be owning the Bitcoin. 2471 01:55:29,886 --> 01:55:34,886 And if the oracle owns de facto controls that money where it goes. 2472 01:55:35,886 --> 01:55:41,886 So they can wait for something like Donald Trump to win, and then will Hillary win? 2473 01:55:41,886 --> 01:55:49,886 Price, the market price, assuming the markets are working temporarily, that price would be like near zero. 2474 01:55:49,886 --> 01:56:00,886 It would be like one cent or something for a security or a pseudo-crypto asset that pays $1 if Trump wins. 2475 01:56:00,886 --> 01:56:08,886 That should be worth about $1, but the one that pays $1 if Clinton wins, that one should be worth almost nothing. 2476 01:56:08,886 --> 01:56:15,886 But what the oracle can do if they control everything is they can buy however much money was bet on the market, 2477 01:56:15,886 --> 01:56:18,886 maybe $10 million or something. 2478 01:56:18,886 --> 01:56:26,886 They can bet $10 million on Clinton for almost nothing, and then turn the switch that says Clinton won instead of Trump, 2479 01:56:26,886 --> 01:56:28,886 and they can then withdraw the money. 2480 01:56:28,886 --> 01:56:37,886 So whoever the oracle is can withdraw all of the money out of the system if they're willing to report incorrectly, 2481 01:56:37,886 --> 01:56:43,886 and if the people who originally traded the money were hoping that they would report correctly. 2482 01:56:43,886 --> 01:56:46,886 So they can just flip every single thing and withdraw all the money. 2483 01:56:46,886 --> 01:56:51,886 So you don't want that to be – that's going to be very difficult to scale if you just do like a website. 2484 01:56:52,886 --> 01:56:59,886 So we have bets of Bitcoin. We have BitBet. We have Fairlay. We have BetMoose. We have these other ones. 2485 01:56:59,886 --> 01:57:03,886 But it's going to be very difficult to scale that, and I know almost all these people. 2486 01:57:03,886 --> 01:57:09,886 Almost all of them have been in contact with me at one point or another to talk about the oracle problem. 2487 01:57:09,886 --> 01:57:11,886 But it's going to be very hard to scale if it's just a website. 2488 01:57:11,886 --> 01:57:16,886 It would be very similar to a Bitcoin exchange where everything will be fine, 2489 01:57:16,886 --> 01:57:20,886 but then there will be the rogue employee, or it will be embezzlement, or it will be a hack or something. 2490 01:57:20,886 --> 01:57:22,886 Everything will be fine until it's not. 2491 01:57:22,886 --> 01:57:29,886 So in that sense, you don't want to just do like a website type model. 2492 01:57:29,886 --> 01:57:35,886 You do want that part to be as smart contract-ish as possible if you want it to scale. 2493 01:57:35,886 --> 01:57:42,886 Now the question is – there's another question of how to decentralize the oracle the right way, 2494 01:57:42,886 --> 01:57:45,886 or can we just rely on Google to do it or something. 2495 01:57:46,886 --> 01:57:52,886 There's a lot of – this is a big tour of technical stuff, but a lot of the answers here are like, 2496 01:57:52,886 --> 01:57:58,886 what happens if people connect, someone connects behind a gray firewall, someone connects at a different time. 2497 01:57:58,886 --> 01:58:01,886 It has to be consensus down to the last byte. 2498 01:58:01,886 --> 01:58:04,886 So there's all kinds of problems that are involved with that. 2499 01:58:04,886 --> 01:58:09,886 So it's a really long conversation. You might have to have me back on for a whole other hour to talk about this. 2500 01:58:10,886 --> 01:58:15,886 I'm thinking of multi-sig and bit-auth 2017 from Jason's presentation 2501 01:58:15,886 --> 01:58:21,886 and thinking how you could probably just use that as far as your decentralized oracle. 2502 01:58:21,886 --> 01:58:24,886 No, because the oracle is the third party in the multi-sig. 2503 01:58:24,886 --> 01:58:33,886 And you can just – the guy who's the third key can also become a trader at any time. 2504 01:58:33,886 --> 01:58:35,886 So anyone can become a trader at any time. 2505 01:58:36,886 --> 01:58:42,886 So he has an incentive to do something that's contrary to the duties of an oracle, 2506 01:58:42,886 --> 01:58:44,886 because there's financial incentive. 2507 01:58:45,886 --> 01:58:49,886 Yeah, the oracle has an opportunity cost of honesty in all cases. 2508 01:58:49,886 --> 01:58:53,886 So if they're going to be honest, they have to be giving up some money. 2509 01:58:53,886 --> 01:58:56,886 And that's why you need some crazy convoluted game theory thing. 2510 01:58:56,886 --> 01:58:59,886 And there's a white paper, and it's very long. 2511 01:58:59,886 --> 01:59:04,886 And that's why it's long, because the oracle has, in every single case, 2512 01:59:04,886 --> 01:59:07,886 a direct incentive to do the opposite of what you want them to do. 2513 01:59:08,886 --> 01:59:12,886 So it's a long conversation as to how I solve that problem or whatever. 2514 01:59:12,886 --> 01:59:15,886 And I don't think we – I'm not sure. I feel bad for your listeners. 2515 01:59:15,886 --> 01:59:20,886 We're approaching BU quality or quantity. 2516 01:59:20,886 --> 01:59:24,886 No, no, no. We strive to be way below BU quality. 2517 01:59:25,886 --> 01:59:27,886 This is just – I don't know. 2518 01:59:27,886 --> 01:59:30,886 We don't have any viewers, so we're good. 2519 01:59:30,886 --> 01:59:32,886 We have six viewers. 2520 01:59:32,886 --> 01:59:35,886 One actually just dropped off while we were talking about this. 2521 01:59:36,886 --> 01:59:37,886 Nice. 2522 01:59:37,886 --> 01:59:39,886 So keep the quality content up. 2523 01:59:39,886 --> 01:59:40,886 Oh, man. 2524 01:59:42,886 --> 01:59:44,886 Let's go for three next time. 2525 01:59:47,886 --> 01:59:50,886 I think we should probably wrap it up here a little bit. 2526 01:59:51,886 --> 01:59:55,886 Talking to you so long makes me feel like I'm back in college 2527 01:59:55,886 --> 01:59:58,886 listening to someone lecture me about something. 2528 01:59:58,886 --> 02:00:00,886 It's just like there's just so much. 2529 02:00:00,886 --> 02:00:02,886 You're just doing so much. 2530 02:00:04,886 --> 02:00:06,886 I do my best, I guess. 2531 02:00:06,886 --> 02:00:08,886 No, I still have a lot of reading to do, 2532 02:00:08,886 --> 02:00:11,886 because I want to be able to ask you some better questions. 2533 02:00:12,886 --> 02:00:15,886 I'm simply just not smart enough to ask you better questions. 2534 02:00:15,886 --> 02:00:16,886 Paul, I apologize. 2535 02:00:16,886 --> 02:00:19,886 No, come on, guys. Don't do that to yourselves. 2536 02:00:20,886 --> 02:00:22,886 Oh, you should see what else we do to ourselves. 2537 02:00:24,886 --> 02:00:27,886 Well, thank you so much, Paul, for being on Block Time. 2538 02:00:27,886 --> 02:00:30,886 I think the nonce has been found, Mike. 2539 02:00:30,886 --> 02:00:34,886 Yep, and our minds have been hired, I guess. 2540 02:00:35,886 --> 02:00:37,886 Thanks for propagating with us. 2541 02:00:38,886 --> 02:00:42,886 Yep, it's been a pleasure propagating transactions with you guys. 2542 02:00:43,886 --> 02:00:44,886 All right. 2543 02:00:44,886 --> 02:00:45,886 Later.