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From LayerTwo Labs, etc, etc

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Today we're going to talk about

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Citria

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you know, we always try to

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We don't like controversy over here and we try always to

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just

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Be super nice to everyone. And so, you know when this when this controversy appeared we decided that the only rational thing to do was

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Thunderdome the situation, you know to combatants enter

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One leaves only one leaves alive

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Gen z if you're wondering what is thunderdome then

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Ask your great-grandparents

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What a movie is a movie is when someone has an idea

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And they want to translate that idea into something that everyone would watch in the same big room together at the mall

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Anyway now

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We've killed enough time in Super Testnet this year

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So, you know how it is

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Everyone we all know the game those of us who have been in this industry for a while a new buzzword will come out

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Bitvm in this case

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And then, you know, there's all kinds of

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forces that are at work about like

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How will this be commercialized? Will it be commercialized at all? A lot of people will

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Go too far or they'll have advisors or a marketing department tell them do such-and-such and then there'll be a lot of you know

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Optimistic people let's call it. So basically

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Super Testnet is an engineer who has actually worked on bitvm and

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Orkin is someone who has

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gotten something to work on bitvm also and

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They had like a press announcement this

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Week and so now here they are. I don't know. I didn't really have a lot of thoughts about

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Sounds good Paul. Thank you. Thank you for the introduction

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Hi Orkin. How are you doing today?

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Hi, I'm good. How are you?

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I'm doing very well, and I would like to apologize for calling your company a scam you win the debate

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Congratulations

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And I'm just here to like talk about the technology and like you can claim anything you want and in this space

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I want to just give our answers and resolve this conversation as friendly as possible

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Because I'm also an engineer developer working on

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Such different things like ZK and bitvm as much as possible. And I think this will be a technical talk and

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Everyone will enjoy including us

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Great. Why don't you tell us about what you guys have made?

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Maybe quickly I can introduce myself because I know that most people know about your background or polls, but

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Maybe I can talk about myself a little bit

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So basically, I'm Orkin

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I'm in Istanbul Turkey. I based in here an emerging country and ChainWay Labs

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Our company we founded one and a half year ago. We are a bunch of engineers coming from Turkey

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For the last one and a half year we built several different products one on privacy one on Bitcoin wallets and

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For the last one year we were working on a ZK roll-up solution on Bitcoin

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Which evolved a lot during the process with the like invention of bitvm by Robin, which I will talk in more detail

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But this is basically the background of me and my team

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My

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Initial skepticism towards your company

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What was based on the fact that your announcement said that you or it's indicated to me seemed to me to say you already have

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a working layer 2 that resolves settles on Bitcoin and

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I don't think you actually do have a late working layer 2 that already settles on Bitcoin. Can you clarify that?

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Sure, I can talk about what we are working for the last one year and what this

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announcement also indicates

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I think I can pin to it into this I think

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Space, but I need to figure out how during that time I can talk

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So basically last year we built a Bitcoin wallet, which also support ordinal

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It was an extension wallet and during that time we realized that okay

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We know ZK well, and we learned Bitcoin scripts as much as possible. We learned taproot

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So what if we can like build some kind of client-side validated protocol using ZKP to enable?

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different financial things

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That can have Bitcoin secured, right?

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Basically like an RGB like other protocols, but we wanted to use ZK to have as much as capability as possible

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So initially we started

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With a like redacted paper

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in

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August I also trying to find the tweet of that. So initially our idea was build a CSV solution

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It was like in technically it was sovereign ZK rollup

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Which which is a rollup that use Bitcoin as a data availability layer. I just shared

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the announcement there

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So it was basically a protocol that we

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started to build

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During that time we were

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Integrating the RPC endpoints building the storage module and in like quick time. I can say three or four months. We

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built some CSV protocols running on Bitcoin and

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I'm also

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Pinning that thing that is on September 29th. If I'm not mistaken. Yeah

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Here it is. Please. Do you mind if I just

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So like are we the sovereign rollup thing

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I really do not like this term because in practice what it means is that something else that's not been something like a theorem

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That's not Bitcoin at all. Just uses the Bitcoin is like a kind of a parking lot for unrelated

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Ethereum data and then this is called like a Bitcoin project when that's basically not true

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But I don't know if they're you you said sovereign Rob and then you switched

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I don't know if we're still talking about sovereign rollup or not

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and I bet that probably a lot of people listening don't know either if

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the project you've most recently mentioned is

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something that is

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See because we all are very familiar with what the Bitcoin technology like with the Bitcoin scripting language can and can't do

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And the certain things that it can do and there's no reason to make an announcement

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About those because they already exist and

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Some of those the things that it can't do and then there's no reason to make an announcement about that either

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I don't know. Can you do you understand what I'm

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Trying to say. Yeah. Yeah, I was just going through that the sovereign thing was a previous construction that we have

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it wasn't client-side validated protocol, but after this announcement a week after that Robin basically invented PTFE and

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The first thing that people say as you know, like can this enable two-way pegs?

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Also, it's Burnett's question was that in the between builders group? For example, he was much more skeptical than anything anyone else

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But he started building template circuits since day zero and he was the first builders that actually did that between implementation

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Right during those times we started

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Researching about between and we just went to the for example Bitcoin Amsterdam

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Also, I think we met there with you Paul

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I can't exactly remember but we just went there to like meet with Robin and Lucas to learn more about PTFE

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How this can enable two-way peg how we can verify ZKP's here

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So after that point basically we

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Immediately converted from client-side validated protocol to actual roll-up and since that date we are working on it

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and as you can see on the peanut to it, there is a

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Functionality that we are sending transaction through an EVM wallet and the data that transaction needs is inscribed in Bitcoin

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Basically with the proof on it and we are reading from a Bitcoin and you can see the exploring that also and recently

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Verified a ZK proof in between our growth 16 proof. It is also the first pin it to eat of super test nuts

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a

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Week ago. We verified growth 16 with 20 billion cycles in between and yesterday

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We managed to make it 4 billion with adding two new instructions, which is our left shift 8-bit left shift and 8-bit right shift

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and

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Like this point we already have proof on Bitcoin living in Bitcoin five or six months ago

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All right. Now we verified the proof in between

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So basically, this is the whole concept of ZK roll-up that needs to have a ZK roll-up

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And we basically done it and this in basic announcement says, okay, we managed to do it and we are committed to doing it

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These are the things that we need to get solved with sidechains

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Also, this includes the right chains how we can solve these problems and what is our approach? This is the basically

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the summary of the post that we shared

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You

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Okay, great

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so

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If I could summarize I think I think I can I'm starting to see where you're coming from here

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so the my

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Objection to your initial announcement was that you say you already have an execution layer and

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I think you're you can defend perhaps you're trying to defend that remark by saying that you do have an

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execution layer first you put the data on Bitcoin then you validate the data using the grout 16 function and

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That's that's it. And it then it's it's

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Nope

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Okay, wait you guys got cut off there for me and you became connecting and now you're both speaker muted

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Now you seem to be back

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Hmm I don't hear anyone now. I don't know why this software is so buggy given that you know, it's very popular

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Maybe it's just me. I don't know. Can anyone else hear anyone?

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Hmm

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Seems we lost Super Testnet at least I just disconnected. I don't know why

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Can you hear me you yeah, I can hear you now

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yeah, you both of you and he went for in a couple plenty of other people in the audience just

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switched to connecting I saw and

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And hopefully they'll be back

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the

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I don't know why you know, I would think

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I'm sure Ilan is on it

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But this is honestly like I do a lot of I know an awful lot of important people are hanging out on spaces

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Including presidential candidates and whatnot. I don't know why they don't

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Put a little bit more

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Okay. Yes, you're back great

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The last thing I heard you say was something about trying to defend that statement and then something else

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What you said and to try and frame it as a as a perhaps answer to my to my initial question

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So what I'm trying to get at is is did you are it does the code work?

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Did you already have a execution layer that settles on Bitcoin?

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And I think you're you could summarize or I'm going to summarize that what I think might be an answer to that

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already have an execution layer that settles on Bitcoin?

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And I think you're, you could summarize, or I'm going to summarize what I think might

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be an answer to that.

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I'm asking for your clarification on it.

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Sounds like you're saying,

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Yes, we do

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We do have an execution layer that settles on Bitcoin because we we've already shown that you can put the data on Bitcoin

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We showed that in September

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And uh now we're showing that Bitcoin can that using BitVM we can actually validate the proof

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Uh, and once you've had the data on chain and it's validated that's that's executed that you're done

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Uh, so is that is that a fair summary of uh of what you're what you're trying to demonstrate here?

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I mean, yeah, that is actually core of my point

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We obviously have some missing points. For example, we need to combine these two in the code actually and not separated process

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But overall, yeah, we have an execution that is ZK proven and we have a verifier on Bitcoin in BitVM that verifies this ZK proof

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Okay, well that's

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That's fair enough for me then I retract my entire criticism and I publicly apologize

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Uh, you guys do you guys satisfied me you do you do have what you claim you have and it was not a lie

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Good job

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And also I maybe

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Sorry, Paul continue

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I was just thinking that maybe you should explain more in detail the difference between

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what

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you thought they had and what they

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Do have

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Um, yeah, so I I thought they had a um

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a blockchain that uh,

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BitVM that BitVM validates the transactions on it and uh,

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and then

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Uh, I'm, sorry. I I shouldn't say I thought they had that I thought they claimed to have that

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And uh, is it like a separate blockchain from Bitcoin?

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That uh, you put transactions on there and then BitVM validates them and that's not what they're claiming

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they're actually using Bitcoin itself as the um,

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As the data available what they call a data availability layer. They're just putting all the transactions on Bitcoin

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uh, so

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Since that's their claim, uh that fits with what they said in their paper

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I and I misunderstood it and I should have read more carefully before making wild accusations about people lying

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uh, so I apologize

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Well, maybe but I think the

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It's very hard to

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like what is the audience here when

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Like I I don't know exactly what what it's like for

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a normal person to hear something like

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The first zk roll-up that settles on Bitcoin

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um

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When you think of a roll-up you would think that the the underlying data

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Is not on the Bitcoin L1 because sort of the whole point of the roll-up is not to do that

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So i'm not saying that anything is misleading or whatever i'm just saying it's kind of very confusing

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No, no, I can maybe I can clarify some point that you have some a little mistake there

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Uh, so basically in roll-ups, there are two different approaches to put the data on Bitcoin blockchain

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uh, I call the roll-ups execution shards, uh because of

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they basically offload the execution but

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Uh, not offload the data and settlements because that makes an L2 secure basically

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a global L2 universal L2 secure

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In in our

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Current architecture. We are creating a zk proof from bunch of transactions

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And the zk proofs output what we call state gifts

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Which is basically the difference between the previous storage slots and the latest storage slots

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So we are compressing thousands of transactions. Let's say there's an mm on citraya and you made 100 transaction

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There is only one data one story slot that changes

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Uh, so this is only basically, uh, we scaled let's say thousand x because of that

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We are putting data thousand less times more than we actually must

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Put the bitcoin. This is where execution shards roll-ups can be helpful

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This is something I needed to clarify

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And this proof is getting verified with bitvm

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Also, it is inscribed in bitcoin so that if you are running a node you can just you don't need any other network connection

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You can just look at the bitcoin blockchain get the proof and validate it written as some mathematical function which we call verifier

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Yeah, I I have criticisms of this approach on the grounds that

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using bitcoin as a as a data dump for this type of uh stuff is inefficient and

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and etc, but that's separate that just uh,

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It's not a scam to say you're doing x and if you're actually doing x, uh,

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And you are you know, you're doing what you say you are. So, uh, even though I don't like it, uh, it's not a scam

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so, um

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Thank you for the apologize. Also, this is pretty like it is extremely kind to hear that

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I also feel your concerns like there are lots of people coming claiming they have

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Altus they have roll-ups they have blah blah and most of them are like trying to sell scam coins to people

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I can understand that

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and

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Being skeptical is not a problem

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Like I like I accept we have a bunch of young developers in turkey and calling scammers is not something we desire

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uh, but thank you for the kind words and uh

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We will clarify all of these by open sourcing all the code i'm going to test that fully public

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And we hope that you may someday work on it. Also

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Do you think um, there's uh

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Will you consider um putting the data somewhere else other than bitcoin

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Yeah, we can put but uh in in that case imagine this way there's some proof generated and put it into bitcoin so you have

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Enabled with troubles, but if you cannot find that data, then you cannot provide them

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This is a problem of obtain data we can put the data off chain if you want less security than bitcoin

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but by putting data on chain we

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We know that if you have a bitcoin node running which is the most censorship resistant node

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Then you can withdraw from the chain

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But if you put the data somewhere off chain

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Then this means that you need to be able to find that data and they the node operators must share with you

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Basically, this is some security thing that we need to consider which exists with all the sidechains

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We are thinking about some mixed options called volitions passing the data both off chain on chain and leaving this option to users

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This is what we are exploring today and hopefully in the mainnet this will be available

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It seems like for the first something like seven years of bitcoins history

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when people launched a

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new

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Blockchain a new a new token it came with its own blockchain

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and if you wanted to be a part of that network you were you ran the node you you ran, you know

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the Namecoin node or you ran the

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Ethereum node or whatever and then you were part of that other network and

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Since the launch of ERC 20 tokens, it's become common for people to not create a new blockchain

256
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But rather just use another blockchain is kind of a host for your data

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For your for your token, and I don't really like that model because it gives rise to something called the data availability problem

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Which is like what if you want to launch token, but you know, nobody's going to run your blockchain software

259
00:19:29,382 --> 00:19:31,983
no one's going to run a node and where do you put the data and

260
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I think it's just it's kind of a symbol of laziness

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if no one's interested enough to run your network nodes, then your project is probably garbage and

262
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It's it's silly to try to just dump that data somewhere else where you're like, oh, well Bitcoiners are running the nodes

263
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Or Bitcoiners are running nodes. We'll just dump the data there

264
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That seems like a bad idea bad precedent to me

265
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Anyway, Eric, I noticed we have Eric wall here and he had his hand up

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So Eric if you wanted to say something

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Welcome

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Yeah

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Honestly Paul I came up because I saw that you were having technical issues and didn't know if people could hear you speak

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so I wanted to help you with that, but the

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other thing I wanted to say was you said that

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you were talking about like the definition of a roll-up and whether that it sounds strange that

273
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You have a roll-up, but you put all the data on the chain anyway, like isn't that a contradiction?

274
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Aren't you supposed to roll something up?

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So maybe it'd be helpful just to give the like accurate description of what a roll-up is

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So that everyone is on the same page

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so I was

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so you a roll-up per definition is a system that dumps all data that is required to

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Construct the state of the roll-up it dumps that data on the layer one

280
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but then you run external software that looks at that executes it and

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Creates the layer two state. So the definition of a roll-up is data on chain

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Execution of chain. So the thing that is getting rolled up is like the execution

283
00:21:15,983 --> 00:21:19,183
The terminology here has always been slightly confusing. So it's

284
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Nothing weird if you're a little bit confused about these terms

285
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but in order to be a real roll-up, you have to put all the data that is necessary to

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recreate the state from

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Genesis the L2 state from Genesis by just looking at the L2 data and there are two ways that people do that either they put

288
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Like all the transaction data on the L1

289
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If you're using an account model, this can

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This can be pretty small you can get something like a transaction can be as small as 13 bytes large

291
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that's all the data that you have to put to transfer the value of a

292
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Token from one account to another account and then the signatures are all rolled up into like a ZK proof for example

293
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But then you have all the data all the inputs that goes into your L2 state

294
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So I do have a question though because that that definition seems very broad

295
00:22:14,582 --> 00:22:20,662
I mean, it seems like it would include both the lightning network and drivechains also, so I mean, I guess I would ask what?

296
00:22:21,222 --> 00:22:23,703
What is there a layer to that is not a roll-up?

297
00:22:24,742 --> 00:22:30,942
Well, the lightning wouldn't really apply like light lightning doesn't have a global state. There's no global state of

298
00:22:31,862 --> 00:22:33,862
Well, that's true

299
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But each channel, of course each channel has its own state

300
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then only the two people see

301
00:22:42,222 --> 00:22:49,103
Drivechains don't apply here because you cannot look at just a Bitcoin chain and from that know exactly who owns which coins on

302
00:22:49,302 --> 00:22:51,862
The drivechain chain like that's the whole purpose of a drive

303
00:22:51,862 --> 00:22:59,103
Well, you can if you have the extra if you you do know the deposits and withdrawals only by looking at L1

304
00:22:59,622 --> 00:23:05,502
I've been asked to make sure that Paul doesn't let this conversation become a drivechain topic. So yeah

305
00:23:06,062 --> 00:23:13,143
Okay, yeah, yeah, but I'm not asking about that specifically I'm just saying about his roll-up definition I think it includes the other thing

306
00:23:13,942 --> 00:23:17,502
The other thing that I was gonna say I disagree with that. But the other the other thing that I was gonna say

307
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Is

308
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that the the the the reason that there's a confusion like in these groups about the terminology here is that

309
00:23:28,823 --> 00:23:34,823
There's this term called a sovereign ZK roll-up that I was partly, you know

310
00:23:35,823 --> 00:23:41,622
Involved in like coming up with this strange term, but what it basically means is that

311
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You take a layer one system like Bitcoin and if you find a way to inscribe arbitrary data into it

312
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What you put there like what you put there?

313
00:23:51,062 --> 00:23:57,703
Can be called a sovereign roll-up if you have another external node that looks at that and interprets it differently

314
00:23:57,703 --> 00:24:03,423
So basically ordinals by this definition would be a sovereign roll-up. I know it sounds funny

315
00:24:03,423 --> 00:24:05,583
But that's how the terminology works

316
00:24:06,543 --> 00:24:13,543
BRC 20 tokens. There's also a kind of sovereign roll-up if you also put a ZK proof verifying

317
00:24:14,823 --> 00:24:17,122
Like compressing the signatures, basically

318
00:24:18,303 --> 00:24:25,062
You know serial knowledge proving the execution then now we have a sovereign ZK roll-up and you can build that on Bitcoin today

319
00:24:25,303 --> 00:24:29,823
That is what you don't get from that from that kind of thing is that you don't get a peg

320
00:24:30,222 --> 00:24:34,823
Two-way peg between Bitcoin layer one and the layer two, so

321
00:24:35,382 --> 00:24:39,543
That's that's a sovereign system, but it's isolated from the Bitcoin asset itself

322
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It inherits the properties of the Bitcoin layer one in terms of like real resistance and data availability

323
00:24:45,423 --> 00:24:49,303
so all the tokens that are like natively minted in that environment are

324
00:24:50,182 --> 00:24:55,622
Like very secure, but they don't they cannot interact with the Bitcoin asset unless you peg it in through a federated

325
00:24:56,182 --> 00:25:00,743
Thing like a federated multi-sig so that's a sovereign ZK roll-up

326
00:25:00,823 --> 00:25:05,423
so now imagine that you're building a sovereign ZK roll-up and then BitVM comes along and

327
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It has this way of like optimistically

328
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Like building a type of optimistically verified

329
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bridge with a

330
00:25:15,983 --> 00:25:21,103
Not the honest majority assumption, but an assumption that at least one of the parties are honest

331
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Then what is the thing that you built now you have a sovereign ZK roll-up and now you have an optimistic bridge

332
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for the Bitcoin assets now if you are now

333
00:25:31,103 --> 00:25:35,662
focused on the Bitcoin asset itself, you don't actually have a

334
00:25:36,303 --> 00:25:40,983
roll-up in the true sense of the word word because if you have a roll-up a layer to

335
00:25:41,462 --> 00:25:45,423
Roll up, then the definition is that you as a user

336
00:25:46,782 --> 00:25:49,983
normal person interacting with the system you have the

337
00:25:51,502 --> 00:25:57,382
Unilateral access and right to deposit and withdraw your assets to the system

338
00:25:57,382 --> 00:26:01,263
Like that's how that's how a roll-up a real roll-up should work. Yeah

339
00:26:01,263 --> 00:26:03,263
most roll-ups in Ethereum don't even work

340
00:26:03,263 --> 00:26:07,382
I mean, but isn't it don't even work. I mean, but I'm okay. Yes

341
00:26:08,942 --> 00:26:10,942
To get to my point BitVM

342
00:26:11,423 --> 00:26:17,462
currently does not fit into that definition of a classical roll-up because there's a

343
00:26:17,983 --> 00:26:20,743
Limited number of actors that are allowed to

344
00:26:22,543 --> 00:26:24,382
You know

345
00:26:24,382 --> 00:26:26,382
This do the dispute resolution

346
00:26:26,823 --> 00:26:30,622
Validate the CK proofs and be in control of the peg basically

347
00:26:30,782 --> 00:26:37,342
So it's like an it's it's a and one out of n honesty honest assumption in this peg

348
00:26:37,782 --> 00:26:42,023
That is not actually how a roll-up is designed

349
00:26:42,303 --> 00:26:48,823
So this these a bit VM roll-ups are not like actually roll-ups or layer twos by the strictest definition of the word

350
00:26:49,103 --> 00:26:51,983
But they do give you so this is why there's some confusion

351
00:26:51,983 --> 00:26:53,983
You can start out as a completely legitimate

352
00:26:54,303 --> 00:27:01,222
Sovereign ZK roll-up then you add this bit VM bridge and now maybe it feels strange for you as companies to be like

353
00:27:01,743 --> 00:27:06,543
Yeah, we're not a ZK roll-up anymore. We're a we're something else because you're focusing on two different

354
00:27:07,143 --> 00:27:12,383
Parts of what your system is like actually doing are you focused on the sovereign part?

355
00:27:12,383 --> 00:27:16,943
Well, then you are ZK roll-up, but if you're focused on the Bitcoin asset and the Bitcoin bridge

356
00:27:17,063 --> 00:27:22,943
Well, you're not actually a role if you have some new flavor of pegging mechanism that we don't quite have a word for yet

357
00:27:23,582 --> 00:27:29,303
We make all these things bit VM roll-ups, even though that's confusing term also a bit VM bridge

358
00:27:30,142 --> 00:27:33,423
so that's basically how we got into this confusing terminology and

359
00:27:33,983 --> 00:27:39,503
Yeah, I just want to set that record straight working if you think that I said anything that was incorrect, please

360
00:27:40,383 --> 00:27:43,623
Correct me, but I think that's sort of captures the gist of it

361
00:27:43,623 --> 00:27:48,623
Yeah, I have like several miner things, but it is too technical about roll-ups details

362
00:27:48,623 --> 00:27:52,142
So I don't want to bring that into this conversation, but you are over a lot, right?

363
00:27:52,142 --> 00:27:58,902
but I wanted something to pause previous points like if it's the right chance at all up then basically because

364
00:27:59,902 --> 00:28:05,943
So what the whole point of roll-up is like Eric said is the exact chart the execution offload the execution

365
00:28:05,943 --> 00:28:09,222
But the execution gets verified in Bitcoin afterwards

366
00:28:10,543 --> 00:28:15,782
Like this is unlike drivechains today. Let's imagine we have a ZKP verification on the base

367
00:28:15,782 --> 00:28:18,822
There is a single opcode that can verify some ZK proof

368
00:28:19,702 --> 00:28:26,983
And this means that the verified thing is the whole L2. It is not only deposits not only with troubles

369
00:28:26,983 --> 00:28:30,503
Not only like part of thing you are verifying every single

370
00:28:31,222 --> 00:28:39,303
Transaction with a single ZK proof, but what happens in the rough changes basically you trust miners to look back to dial to

371
00:28:40,142 --> 00:28:43,822
Verify something is going correctly and get back to maintain and vote for it

372
00:28:44,022 --> 00:28:48,262
This is inherently different trust assumption between roll-ups and drivechains

373
00:28:50,183 --> 00:28:54,303
Well, yeah the I think you would agree that the the deposits and the withdrawals are both

374
00:28:54,983 --> 00:29:00,383
Verified on L1 in the case of the drivechain and it's like people say trust the miner

375
00:29:01,103 --> 00:29:08,103
Yes. Yeah the withdrawals and the deposits are not everything in between but this is a common thing. This is how do we cut?

376
00:29:08,782 --> 00:29:14,063
The question is how do we have something with the question for sidechains in my opinion is like how do we have something?

377
00:29:14,063 --> 00:29:20,222
That is a lot like a lot like a blockchain where it has a global state because everyone has many desirable properties

378
00:29:20,822 --> 00:29:28,063
People like a lot of what the block I mean, it's so she the blockchain is the is the invention and this all this new stuff

379
00:29:28,582 --> 00:29:31,702
Including the lightning network is like kind of not even panning out. So

380
00:29:32,863 --> 00:29:38,623
Yeah, but I think the idea is how can we have something like that where we only have some people validate some parts

381
00:29:38,623 --> 00:29:41,623
So the hope the whole the whole purpose of it is to intentionally

382
00:29:42,142 --> 00:29:47,022
Ditch some of the make some people only validate some parts of it. That's the entire

383
00:29:47,022 --> 00:29:54,183
Goal and then people always say about, you know, trusting the miners. It's like, you know, it's like people saying Microsoft Windows will only work

384
00:29:56,582 --> 00:30:01,383
It will only work until Bill Gates crashes his private jet into the Microsoft headquarters

385
00:30:02,662 --> 00:30:04,262
And it's kind of like, you know

386
00:30:04,262 --> 00:30:09,423
I guess it's not gonna happen because it's a cost the miners basically nothing and they collect transaction fees if the miners want

387
00:30:09,423 --> 00:30:13,623
Although fact that the miners want the fees is the reason that it will work

388
00:30:13,623 --> 00:30:24,022
And it's also the reason why it will be incentive compatible for like a hundred years and the these other things will not I think because they will pay the fees to someone else and yet it's all

389
00:30:24,743 --> 00:30:29,462
Built on the what the miners will include in L1. So so that's just like my

390
00:30:30,222 --> 00:30:35,983
These are the same questions that I always get, you know that I've gotten for eight years and you know people still don't

391
00:30:36,503 --> 00:30:39,063
They don't agree with me by now, then they're not going to but

392
00:30:39,063 --> 00:30:41,462
I haven't heard anything new in eight years ever since

393
00:30:43,383 --> 00:30:49,462
Publishing drivechain in November 2015 people always say well, what about what if the miner suddenly decide they don't want money

394
00:30:51,142 --> 00:30:52,662
And you're like, okay

395
00:30:52,662 --> 00:30:54,662
I guess it won't happen

396
00:30:54,662 --> 00:31:01,702
There are several other things in enroll ups you pay all the fees to the L1 miners. You are not paying fees to any of our anywhere

397
00:31:01,702 --> 00:31:03,303
Yeah, that's good

398
00:31:03,303 --> 00:31:12,743
So you have a situation where the intermediate state transitions on the L2 are also

399
00:31:14,503 --> 00:31:17,063
Those are summed up into a big L1 fee

400
00:31:18,423 --> 00:31:23,222
I guess yeah, that's correct. That's the desirable situation. Yeah, that's that that is going to be necessary. I think

401
00:31:24,262 --> 00:31:26,262
But our

402
00:31:26,423 --> 00:31:32,262
You know, I think may of 2016 I made a presentation about why it's very good for miners to be able to kill off

403
00:31:33,222 --> 00:31:38,582
Sidechains that they don't like because the side different sidechains can interfere with each other which this would later be known as

404
00:31:39,702 --> 00:31:41,702
cross-chain mev

405
00:31:42,523 --> 00:31:47,603
to able to kill off sidechains that they don't like because different sidechains can

406
00:31:47,603 --> 00:31:53,443
interfere with each other, which this would later be known as cross -chain MEV.

407
00:31:54,223 --> 00:31:57,923
So this is a problem that I invented and solved long before anyone else heard of

408
00:31:58,662 --> 00:32:00,902
Oh, no, we got people connecting again

409
00:32:01,863 --> 00:32:03,863
Oh, this software is so weird

410
00:32:04,022 --> 00:32:08,582
I think everyone's back though. Can everyone people are people still can people still hear?

411
00:32:09,702 --> 00:32:11,383
Let's see if it um

412
00:32:11,383 --> 00:32:14,342
Okay, good. Satoshi. Enjoy says yes. I can we had a lot of

413
00:32:15,063 --> 00:32:16,423
Okay, good

414
00:32:16,423 --> 00:32:19,462
I just saw like five people go connecting or whatever on my little screen

415
00:32:20,183 --> 00:32:22,183
I don't know why this software is so weird

416
00:32:23,142 --> 00:32:24,423
hopefully

417
00:32:24,423 --> 00:32:27,142
they can uh, let me see if we um

418
00:32:28,503 --> 00:32:34,902
Orkin, can you hear did you hear everything? Are you work? Yes. It connected for a while. My software was working correctly

419
00:32:35,462 --> 00:32:37,222
Okay, good

420
00:32:37,222 --> 00:32:40,183
uh, so yeah, I think the whole thing is like kind of like

421
00:32:40,662 --> 00:32:47,943
uh, it's the the invention of trustlessness on on L2 is really like to me it is like saying

422
00:32:48,743 --> 00:32:49,863
Because

423
00:32:49,863 --> 00:32:50,983
the

424
00:32:50,983 --> 00:32:52,983
The way BIP300 works is a case

425
00:32:53,063 --> 00:32:56,022
It takes a hash of all the state transitions over the three months

426
00:32:56,262 --> 00:32:58,423
And so you have to that is the thing that has to be wrong

427
00:32:59,063 --> 00:33:00,743
in order for

428
00:33:00,743 --> 00:33:02,582
Anything to go wrong at all

429
00:33:02,582 --> 00:33:07,303
so to me it really is like will microsoft crash the private chat into the and then when people

430
00:33:07,543 --> 00:33:11,702
Protest or they say we want to change it like this. We want to change it like that. I just decide

431
00:33:12,183 --> 00:33:15,782
Well, they don't understand how it works and it's a waste of my time to explain to them

432
00:33:15,782 --> 00:33:21,063
no offense to you know, but I just it's my personal decision that i've made after years of just thinking like

433
00:33:21,782 --> 00:33:26,342
no, no, I definitely understand like your logic behind the game theory between uh,

434
00:33:26,423 --> 00:33:31,702
Drivechain miners like merge miners and the actual miners also, but I basically don't agree with most of them

435
00:33:31,702 --> 00:33:37,142
But this is not important and I think in a separate space we can talk about drivechains and rollups and uh,

436
00:33:37,383 --> 00:33:39,383
so on in more detail

437
00:33:39,702 --> 00:33:42,183
It's too bad that we lost eric. Hopefully he comes back

438
00:33:42,822 --> 00:33:45,142
Oh wait, it looks like he's back on my screen

439
00:33:45,782 --> 00:33:50,662
uh, he's a listener now, I see hopefully he can come back up because honestly I asked him about

440
00:33:51,383 --> 00:33:53,383
his roll-up definition

441
00:33:53,462 --> 00:33:54,902
and

442
00:33:54,902 --> 00:33:56,902
He gave a very informative answer

443
00:33:57,303 --> 00:33:59,303
Which is great

444
00:33:59,543 --> 00:34:04,342
But unfortunately, I really think that most people listening in the audience will just conclude that there is no

445
00:34:04,983 --> 00:34:06,983
That the roll-up word is a useless word

446
00:34:07,462 --> 00:34:12,183
Because it can mean all sorts of different things of different shapes and sizes and so that they should just

447
00:34:12,503 --> 00:34:14,503
Abandon the word and just kind of ignore it

448
00:34:15,383 --> 00:34:19,863
I hope that's not too harsh to say but I just think an average person is going to be thinking

449
00:34:21,142 --> 00:34:24,103
What does roll up mean? It means ordinals. It means

450
00:34:24,902 --> 00:34:27,383
It might mean the lightning network. Eric says no

451
00:34:28,022 --> 00:34:30,022
I wasn't totally convinced

452
00:34:30,103 --> 00:34:36,342
I think this all will be cleared cleared on we have testnet running and people will experience how it's going to look like and

453
00:34:36,662 --> 00:34:42,022
We are pretty clear about like the trust assumptions. Uh, if you read our documentation, you will see that

454
00:34:42,582 --> 00:34:45,702
There are just one trust assumption of the witvm and the other is

455
00:34:46,262 --> 00:34:50,662
Uh near trustless in the longer term. Uh, this is all about practical

456
00:34:50,743 --> 00:34:53,462
I think people will see people will experience and then decide

457
00:34:56,262 --> 00:34:59,142
So I can ask a question as a normal user that might help

458
00:34:59,543 --> 00:35:01,142
Um with the definition

459
00:35:01,142 --> 00:35:07,543
so it seems to me that he's saying that the bridge from bitvm is not a roll-up specifically because

460
00:35:08,183 --> 00:35:12,822
It's the one of n feature and it's not anybody can um, uh,

461
00:35:13,462 --> 00:35:14,503
Peg out

462
00:35:14,503 --> 00:35:19,303
Um, is that correct specifically because it's a one of n. Um, and not just like literally anybody else

463
00:35:19,863 --> 00:35:21,863
Is that why he's saying it's not a roll-up?

464
00:35:21,863 --> 00:35:23,863
That's what I heard him saying

465
00:35:24,183 --> 00:35:26,183
Okay

466
00:35:27,303 --> 00:35:30,662
Or could maybe you think something else I don't know yeah to me it's like

467
00:35:33,063 --> 00:35:35,063
So basically, okay you go

468
00:35:35,303 --> 00:35:36,662
Yeah, basically

469
00:35:36,662 --> 00:35:42,503
I think that in in the longer term in more general sense if we cannot unilaterally exit, this is not an L2

470
00:35:42,743 --> 00:35:44,743
This is my thing today

471
00:35:44,822 --> 00:35:49,942
Only like think that can you can unilaterally exit is arc and lightning and stuff drivechains

472
00:35:49,942 --> 00:35:54,023
You cannot unilaterally exit. You need miners roll-ups. You cannot in between

473
00:35:55,143 --> 00:35:56,743
but there is

474
00:35:56,743 --> 00:36:03,302
You're right about that. But but I think there is a fundamental contradiction between unilateral exit and scale

475
00:36:03,542 --> 00:36:05,542
So if you scale to 8 billion people

476
00:36:06,582 --> 00:36:11,062
Then there's no if you have 8 billion people on L2, but they cannot fit on L1

477
00:36:11,623 --> 00:36:13,623
Then they can't unilaterally exit

478
00:36:14,182 --> 00:36:19,462
actually, uh, you know again, I don't want it to become the drivechain show necessarily but drivechain does have the ability to

479
00:36:19,702 --> 00:36:21,143
have the

480
00:36:21,143 --> 00:36:23,143
stuff consolidate on L2

481
00:36:23,702 --> 00:36:25,702
As does arc I think

482
00:36:25,863 --> 00:36:30,342
Uh, but it may not because if it depends on exactly when everything stops working

483
00:36:31,143 --> 00:36:33,143
but um, there's no way

484
00:36:34,023 --> 00:36:34,503
You know what? I mean?

485
00:36:34,503 --> 00:36:39,623
Like if 8 billion people use L2 if they cannot fit on L1, then they cannot unilaterally exit to L1

486
00:36:39,623 --> 00:36:41,863
It's a useless feature that will never be

487
00:36:42,422 --> 00:36:44,422
well, I have a question here too because

488
00:36:45,222 --> 00:36:46,422
Ultimately

489
00:36:46,422 --> 00:36:48,903
No matter what you're gonna do. It's up to the miners

490
00:36:48,903 --> 00:36:54,582
Anyways, if you're doing something on L1, um, if they really don't want a transaction to happen, it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen, right?

491
00:36:55,062 --> 00:36:56,263
um, so like

492
00:36:56,263 --> 00:37:01,222
Can you really have unilateral exit no matter what without them? You're still relying on the miners like

493
00:37:03,542 --> 00:37:10,182
Yeah, you need to assume bitcoin is safe bitcoin miners are honest but this doesn't mean that the chains they merge mine is honest

494
00:37:10,263 --> 00:37:15,942
Also, you need to assume that bitcoin miners are honest in bitcoin and after that you can talk about these definitions

495
00:37:16,103 --> 00:37:18,822
If you say that bitcoin miners are not honest then there is no point

496
00:37:19,942 --> 00:37:24,342
The way I see them as being honest is they have an economical incentive to be honest, right?

497
00:37:24,663 --> 00:37:30,103
So if they have if they're if they're acting based on their economic incentive, then they're being honest

498
00:37:30,342 --> 00:37:36,422
So if they are running off their economic incentive, then they can secure the other chain's peg outs

499
00:37:36,663 --> 00:37:40,922
So it's basically the same answer if they're being honest and they're running off economic incentives

500
00:37:41,222 --> 00:37:43,863
Then they will secure the peg outs of the other chain

501
00:37:45,062 --> 00:37:48,342
I'm kind of like lumping it together. You see what i'm saying? Yeah, that's correct. That's correct

502
00:37:48,342 --> 00:37:52,582
This is why we advocate that our tools must pay fees to bitcoin and like

503
00:37:53,302 --> 00:37:58,123
Get bitcoin security and both in meanwhile pay to bitcoin to make the incentive alliance

504
00:37:58,123 --> 00:38:00,123
Okay

505
00:38:04,763 --> 00:38:10,603
Okay, we seem to have let's see we have super testament is back in the audience as a listener

506
00:38:11,722 --> 00:38:13,483
and uh

507
00:38:13,483 --> 00:38:15,483
I don't know. I don't see

508
00:38:15,802 --> 00:38:19,722
Eric seems to have bounced. I see him as a speaker coming on and off. Really?

509
00:38:22,042 --> 00:38:26,682
Oh, man, this is too bad. Also, maybe it's false fault if he's the only one maybe it's me. I don't know

510
00:38:27,003 --> 00:38:31,403
Maybe you should I saw I saw um, eric also do the same thing often

511
00:38:32,603 --> 00:38:34,603
I often have a lot of problems with this

512
00:38:35,082 --> 00:38:39,003
And I get a new phone I get everything people who listen don't know they'll be tired of hearing this by now

513
00:38:39,003 --> 00:38:43,962
I always complain about twitter spaces. I always talked about how I don't think there's phones and you're having a problem

514
00:38:44,922 --> 00:38:46,922
I don't know why it's happening to me

515
00:38:48,123 --> 00:38:54,442
I really don't understand it. I really have troubleshoot shot it but it's uh, oh there's eric as a speaker again

516
00:38:54,843 --> 00:38:56,823
Can you try to speak Eric in Super Test now?

517
00:38:56,863 --> 00:38:57,863
I only see him as a listener.

518
00:38:58,103 --> 00:39:00,643
I can leave and rejoin him or do something else.

519
00:39:00,783 --> 00:39:02,723
don't know. I'll try also.

520
00:39:02,723 --> 00:39:03,343
As Paul Sztorc.

521
00:39:04,343 --> 00:39:05,243
Because I feel bad.

522
00:39:05,303 --> 00:39:06,363
I know that they both want to get

523
00:39:08,502 --> 00:39:10,982
Makes it look like we're highly manipulating the

524
00:39:12,102 --> 00:39:16,902
Who can see them both as speakers? I don't know. So maybe I don't want to see eric as I see eric

525
00:39:17,382 --> 00:39:19,382
I'm gonna leave too. I don't know

526
00:39:19,382 --> 00:39:21,382
Um

527
00:39:31,302 --> 00:39:34,601
Okay, i'm basically the host now this is pretty funny

528
00:39:50,101 --> 00:39:52,101
As listeners, I don't know why

529
00:39:52,581 --> 00:39:54,182
Yeah, I wish I did now

530
00:39:54,182 --> 00:39:56,182
Well now at least now I see them as listeners

531
00:39:56,261 --> 00:40:00,421
They were as speakers before or can do you see them as speakers or listeners? I see them as I see

532
00:40:00,662 --> 00:40:06,182
I see them. We have speakers up there. It's probably you then we can deduce that they don't want to speak anymore. Maybe

533
00:40:07,622 --> 00:40:09,542
Your cash is uh

534
00:40:09,542 --> 00:40:13,222
I don't know and I want to often when I join I have to join like a couple different times. I just see a blank

535
00:40:13,862 --> 00:40:19,862
Thing with no people just messaged me and saying whenever I try to connect it just cuts the audio from me

536
00:40:21,061 --> 00:40:22,341
Huh?

537
00:40:22,341 --> 00:40:24,341
Interesting. That is really weird

538
00:40:25,301 --> 00:40:26,502
I don't know

539
00:40:26,502 --> 00:40:28,502
What to do about it?

540
00:40:29,061 --> 00:40:31,222
What action can we take that will help I don't know

541
00:40:34,341 --> 00:40:39,142
Well, the last thing we can try is nothing comes to mind come back because we already did so

542
00:40:40,021 --> 00:40:43,301
Yeah, let's let's make that make the time come back let's try

543
00:40:49,862 --> 00:40:56,101
Yeah, we can crack the mysteries of bit vm and and zk roll-ups but twitter space

544
00:40:56,661 --> 00:40:58,661
basic usage of twitter space we

545
00:40:59,462 --> 00:41:02,182
That's above our pay grade, you know, we don't um

546
00:41:02,182 --> 00:41:04,182
We don't um

547
00:41:06,421 --> 00:41:12,922
That's that's the real blockchain, I don't know i'm just trying to make like a you know a little joke of this situation

548
00:41:15,782 --> 00:41:17,782
Anyway, hopefully maybe they'll all be trapped

549
00:41:19,622 --> 00:41:24,262
Yeah, no, he's back yeah here he is I don't know I do not understand that

550
00:41:25,782 --> 00:41:27,122
It's interesting

551
00:41:27,122 --> 00:41:29,381
unfortunately, I think we must assume that

552
00:41:30,342 --> 00:41:34,741
I don't think there's anything we can do to hopefully they can come back up. I don't know

553
00:41:36,021 --> 00:41:41,702
Yeah, maybe they can uh minutes. So meanwhile, like I want to thank again, you know, like doing the space i'm

554
00:41:42,741 --> 00:41:47,141
Recognizing my message and giving me opportunity to speak as well. And I want to take yeah, of course

555
00:41:47,462 --> 00:41:52,741
it's actually very great that you guys are a team of engineers who are like because you know often this this type of thing does

556
00:41:52,741 --> 00:41:54,741
happen very very often where it's like

557
00:41:55,702 --> 00:42:01,161
So the story will be like x someone will come up with x and that person will be like a really hard-working

558
00:42:01,941 --> 00:42:03,941
brilliant person

559
00:42:04,182 --> 00:42:06,982
They come up with x and then like a bunch of like, you know

560
00:42:07,601 --> 00:42:12,741
Sociopathic vulture people will like swoop in and they'll like start like whatever like a fake company

561
00:42:12,822 --> 00:42:18,501
And it's just like powerpoint slides only or something like all kinds of crazy stuff has happened over the over the many years

562
00:42:19,782 --> 00:42:21,301
and certainly

563
00:42:21,301 --> 00:42:26,661
I mean if certainly if eric were back up here or whatever other people that we know they could certainly tell

564
00:42:27,542 --> 00:42:29,542
a lot of funny stories

565
00:42:29,622 --> 00:42:32,902
Especially I think for the last year we see done a lot

566
00:42:33,861 --> 00:42:39,861
Like i'm a little maybe a bit younger than you so i'm not in this place for like tens of decades

567
00:42:39,861 --> 00:42:45,702
but uh, I sort of think those kind of things happen, but uh, I also like how

568
00:42:45,941 --> 00:42:49,542
Super Testnet is skeptical and i'm glad that we've resolved all the issues and

569
00:42:50,101 --> 00:42:54,501
I know that we are we have a fault to like not publish the code fully. Uh, but in the

570
00:42:55,141 --> 00:42:57,141
In the next month, we will publish everything

571
00:43:00,021 --> 00:43:03,462
Oh interesting Super Testnet sounds speaker, but there's this weird beeping sound

572
00:43:04,822 --> 00:43:06,581
Yeah

573
00:43:06,581 --> 00:43:08,581
Is this you beeping Super Testnet? Are you in a car?

574
00:43:16,581 --> 00:43:18,581
Okay, we used to mute everyone

575
00:43:19,382 --> 00:43:21,382
Button, but now I don't know. Well, nope

576
00:43:21,622 --> 00:43:25,062
Oh when you unmuted mute, is this really what is going on with this?

577
00:43:27,062 --> 00:43:30,421
This cannot possibly be oh, it's his own microphone maybe

578
00:43:32,741 --> 00:43:36,102
What could i've never heard of i've never heard even that type of beep before in my life

579
00:43:39,141 --> 00:43:41,141
Well

580
00:43:41,861 --> 00:43:46,741
Mysteries abound always a new day. Hey, you learn something new every day today. I learned that

581
00:43:48,502 --> 00:43:55,562
I learned again. I didn't really learn this today, but I learned that twitter spaces is cantankerous

582
00:44:00,981 --> 00:44:02,981
But what I did learn today is

583
00:44:03,301 --> 00:44:05,301
Is

584
00:44:05,301 --> 00:44:06,421
Citria

585
00:44:06,421 --> 00:44:10,021
So what is it with uh people in turkey, you know, that's the question

586
00:44:10,102 --> 00:44:14,581
It's like there's all these people coming out of turkey who are like great blockchain engineers all of a sudden

587
00:44:16,102 --> 00:44:18,102
What's the story behind that

588
00:44:19,701 --> 00:44:23,141
Like I can say maybe the the economy and governments, uh

589
00:44:23,942 --> 00:44:30,021
They are not good at it. Obviously and they're controlling money pretty hard and they're pushing some

590
00:44:30,722 --> 00:44:34,102
Irrelevant regulations and this makes people make adopts

591
00:44:35,462 --> 00:44:37,462
in course crypto in general, but

592
00:44:38,102 --> 00:44:42,821
Mostly, that's the best kind of adoption. So you see mostly stable coins

593
00:44:43,541 --> 00:44:46,581
Uh, it is mostly stable coins. I know some people that yes

594
00:44:47,301 --> 00:44:48,021
but

595
00:44:48,021 --> 00:44:54,182
Their immediate thinking is that we need to get out of turkish lira and buy some u.s dollars in a particular manner. Yeah

596
00:44:56,182 --> 00:44:59,541
That's very interesting to hear this is a very common story like for example

597
00:45:00,021 --> 00:45:02,761
If I travel around the world people love usdt

598
00:45:03,622 --> 00:45:05,622
Uh, usdt is like so big

599
00:45:05,942 --> 00:45:09,382
Like way bigger than you would think. Yeah, so that's like the biggest one over in

600
00:45:10,182 --> 00:45:12,821
Yeah, istanbul. Constantinople as it used to be called

601
00:45:15,141 --> 00:45:17,141
Um, yeah, it's usdt is the most

602
00:45:18,581 --> 00:45:20,502
It is a step because people now

603
00:45:22,821 --> 00:45:24,821
No, it definitely is

604
00:45:25,222 --> 00:45:27,701
I think like it's a big wake-up call for

605
00:45:28,662 --> 00:45:34,261
Bitcoin, you know, unfortunately a lot of these people push these kind of half-baked theories in my view about like

606
00:45:34,821 --> 00:45:36,241
bitcoin is

607
00:45:36,241 --> 00:45:38,241
Automatically going to succeed

608
00:45:38,342 --> 00:45:44,502
Bitcoin is already one. All we have to do is wait stack and wait, you know immaculate conception all this stuff blah blah blah

609
00:45:45,062 --> 00:45:46,421
and

610
00:45:46,421 --> 00:45:48,182
they

611
00:45:48,182 --> 00:45:50,421
uh, you know, I don't really like it because

612
00:45:51,141 --> 00:45:54,182
The early days of bitcoin everyone was always like what can we do? How can we get?

613
00:45:54,902 --> 00:45:58,662
We'll get new egg to accept bitcoin we'll get we'll make I made a new wallet

614
00:45:58,741 --> 00:46:01,701
everyone was always like doing things and making things and um

615
00:46:02,981 --> 00:46:08,421
We could go into a long digression on maybe why this happened as i've done many times

616
00:46:08,502 --> 00:46:10,502
But i'm not going to bore everyone with that today. I think

617
00:46:11,222 --> 00:46:13,782
the point is just that this idea is out there that

618
00:46:14,421 --> 00:46:19,541
um bitcoin like has no competitors or something and that it's just like automatically going to win

619
00:46:20,502 --> 00:46:21,541
and

620
00:46:21,541 --> 00:46:23,541
the

621
00:46:24,182 --> 00:46:27,861
When people use usdt it's kind of like a little bit more apparent that oh no

622
00:46:27,861 --> 00:46:31,622
People are just going to use like whatever they want to use and it doesn't have to be

623
00:46:33,301 --> 00:46:35,782
People are like what do people want out of their money?

624
00:46:36,821 --> 00:46:39,541
Okay, they know what they don't want. They don't want like, you know

625
00:46:40,421 --> 00:46:42,421
terrible government turkish lira

626
00:46:42,662 --> 00:46:43,701
money

627
00:46:43,701 --> 00:46:45,701
and they want

628
00:46:45,701 --> 00:46:50,342
Network, I mean the usdt is to me. It's a like a point for the network effects

629
00:46:51,622 --> 00:46:52,741
column

630
00:46:52,821 --> 00:46:54,821
It's like they want to be part of something big

631
00:46:55,701 --> 00:46:59,701
They want to use like what their friends are using. Yeah, that's correct. And uh

632
00:47:00,102 --> 00:47:02,741
In more general, I think this is like a step like you said

633
00:47:02,741 --> 00:47:05,942
But uh, even though I don't like the like approach you take or so

634
00:47:06,182 --> 00:47:09,782
I like the vision of you make every transaction a bitcoin transaction

635
00:47:10,021 --> 00:47:15,382
Basically, they people have different needs than just like making payments or storing some value in this coin

636
00:47:15,701 --> 00:47:19,942
Uh, but if we enable lots of real economical use cases like private

637
00:47:20,421 --> 00:47:22,902
Transfers even the most basic thing we need to enable

638
00:47:23,301 --> 00:47:29,402
Then the demand to bitcoin will also increase as well as not just in turkey, but in globally

639
00:47:33,301 --> 00:47:35,302
Yeah, cool great

640
00:47:35,941 --> 00:47:37,542
well

641
00:47:37,542 --> 00:47:39,141
Super Testnet

642
00:47:39,141 --> 00:47:45,862
And others are either unwilling or unable more likely to come back up as speakers, which is not great

643
00:47:46,821 --> 00:47:52,261
I don't know why that is. I don't know what action we can take other than completely resetting the space

644
00:47:52,742 --> 00:47:54,742
Which will kick everyone out

645
00:47:54,902 --> 00:47:56,581
which seems like

646
00:47:56,581 --> 00:47:58,342
and

647
00:47:58,342 --> 00:48:00,501
Although that seems like it would work. It does seem

648
00:48:03,141 --> 00:48:05,141
Far from ideal

649
00:48:05,222 --> 00:48:11,542
I don't know why I don't know why if anyone knows. Hey if you want to dm me any kind of explanation or

650
00:48:12,081 --> 00:48:14,081
suggestion on why

651
00:48:14,482 --> 00:48:16,482
I always have a miserable time

652
00:48:16,482 --> 00:48:20,001
I think it must be me because even though other people do complain. I don't

653
00:48:21,681 --> 00:48:24,242
I don't get it though. I don't really do anything

654
00:48:25,201 --> 00:48:27,282
I'm, not doing anything. I don't understand what the issue is

655
00:48:28,402 --> 00:48:33,121
But whenever i'm in the spaces, they always I always have to join like several times. There's always blank people

656
00:48:33,922 --> 00:48:38,722
And then I will eventually freeze and then I will just glitch out and like crash the app

657
00:48:39,282 --> 00:48:46,001
Yeah, I didn't have any any problem except the long-time connection but apparently supertestnet and eric cannot join us because

658
00:48:49,441 --> 00:48:52,162
I wonder if they have like an alt account they can try with

659
00:48:53,441 --> 00:48:55,922
um, I don't know if that will help or not, but that might

660
00:48:56,962 --> 00:49:00,162
Then they'll dox their alt account. They'll have to come up and they'll have to be like

661
00:49:01,121 --> 00:49:04,561
It's me supertestnet the second just make like a new one right now

662
00:49:05,362 --> 00:49:07,362
Uh, yeah, I don't know

663
00:49:08,162 --> 00:49:14,242
But I think the benefit of usdt is also that it's like chain agnostic right if one chain is having problems or it's like

664
00:49:14,242 --> 00:49:17,842
You know too congested or whatever fees are up. You can always just use another chain

665
00:49:18,561 --> 00:49:22,162
And the fact that it's like the same asset on many chains kind of kind of helps

666
00:49:23,042 --> 00:49:24,081
Yeah

667
00:49:24,081 --> 00:49:25,681
I think that's true

668
00:49:25,681 --> 00:49:29,201
I think I you know, I see a lot of people like usdt on on tron

669
00:49:29,842 --> 00:49:31,761
Or it's clear

670
00:49:31,761 --> 00:49:33,761
to me that for just from talking to them

671
00:49:34,242 --> 00:49:35,922
that they

672
00:49:35,922 --> 00:49:41,201
Have no idea what they're using like they just use some app they use like a jack's wallet or something and they they have like

673
00:49:41,282 --> 00:49:43,282
no idea like what

674
00:49:43,441 --> 00:49:46,081
They don't you know, they're not running a node. They don't know

675
00:49:47,362 --> 00:49:49,362
What a node is so

676
00:49:50,001 --> 00:49:52,881
But this is a very interesting thing everyone I think everyone should do this

677
00:49:54,162 --> 00:49:57,121
whenever you travel or just whenever you talk to anyone just

678
00:49:57,922 --> 00:50:04,722
If you want if you're interested in this, it's definitely very good for bitcoin if you just ask people, you know

679
00:50:05,521 --> 00:50:07,521
To be honest about

680
00:50:07,602 --> 00:50:13,362
Like hey, do you use what do you do you use any of this stuff? Like do you buy do you own any of this stuff?

681
00:50:13,441 --> 00:50:15,042
Do you?

682
00:50:15,042 --> 00:50:20,402
And it is really weird. Um, it's not what it's really often not what you would expect and I remember thinking like

683
00:50:20,802 --> 00:50:22,802
like ethereum used to be

684
00:50:22,962 --> 00:50:26,081
This is me boring everyone with war stories now, but you know

685
00:50:26,482 --> 00:50:31,602
It's like it certainly used to be the case like in 2015 ethereum was like the worst project ever

686
00:50:32,081 --> 00:50:35,761
And then the dow hack happened in 2016 and then blah blah blah all this stuff happened

687
00:50:35,761 --> 00:50:38,722
but everyone still thought of ethereum as like a terrible thing and then

688
00:50:39,761 --> 00:50:41,201
slowly

689
00:50:41,201 --> 00:50:43,201
I would say maybe like

690
00:50:43,282 --> 00:50:44,621
like

691
00:50:44,621 --> 00:50:46,621
2020 or 2019 or

692
00:50:47,902 --> 00:50:50,242
Nft is getting big and stuff like that

693
00:50:50,962 --> 00:50:56,482
I think it was before nfts like 2021 in the summer when defi was like defi. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah

694
00:50:58,001 --> 00:50:59,521
Show it's kind of

695
00:50:59,521 --> 00:51:02,001
And you'd see like oh lots and lots of normal people

696
00:51:03,282 --> 00:51:04,402
are like

697
00:51:04,402 --> 00:51:08,081
using this and then you would see this stuff like I like I don't know like I got invited to

698
00:51:08,802 --> 00:51:12,821
New york city nft and I you know, I don't really own any nfts

699
00:51:13,761 --> 00:51:18,881
But I knew one of the people organizing it and I lived close to new york city. So I was like, whatever i'll go

700
00:51:20,001 --> 00:51:23,362
And they had great, you know, they had really great for what it's worth. They had great food

701
00:51:24,722 --> 00:51:26,321
Which was free

702
00:51:26,321 --> 00:51:29,282
But um, but yeah everything all the nfts everything was being

703
00:51:30,001 --> 00:51:34,402
All the bidding and everything was done in eth. That was like a kind of a neat moment for me. I was like

704
00:51:35,042 --> 00:51:37,042
Oh and all this stuff is in eth

705
00:51:37,282 --> 00:51:39,282
like a hundred percent

706
00:51:39,602 --> 00:51:42,081
but then in in the bitcoin culture, it's

707
00:51:43,042 --> 00:51:49,521
Really still on autopilot like it was from like as if this is still the year 2016 or something. So that's

708
00:51:50,162 --> 00:51:54,641
That's not great. So and then yeah, like if I if I go I go travel around the world a little bit

709
00:51:55,441 --> 00:51:56,722
And

710
00:51:56,722 --> 00:52:01,282
Usdt is so big and then we heard it again. Yes. Hello. Hey orkan. Yes hand. Hello

711
00:52:02,321 --> 00:52:07,121
Yes, so Super Testnet. I was talking with him to dm, but maybe we can just close the

712
00:52:07,922 --> 00:52:13,521
Space and reopen it because he tried six times from different browsers, but he's still unable to join. Okay

713
00:52:13,922 --> 00:52:16,081
Let's just close it and reopen it then

714
00:52:16,722 --> 00:52:17,922
Okay

715
00:52:17,922 --> 00:52:19,362
two part space

716
00:52:19,362 --> 00:52:21,362
Okay

717
00:52:21,362 --> 00:52:27,141
Okay, sorry about that everyone try to rejoin if you can, okay

718
00:52:51,362 --> 00:52:54,321
You

719
00:53:21,362 --> 00:53:24,321
You

720
00:53:51,362 --> 00:53:54,321
You

721
00:54:22,162 --> 00:54:24,162
You

722
00:54:29,521 --> 00:54:34,662
Hey, I hope this time Super Testnet and eric can join

723
00:54:37,508 --> 00:54:44,828
Wait, are you there? Hello? Oh, yeah. Oh, I hear you now. Yes. Okay, let me share this.

724
00:54:44,828 --> 00:54:50,748
Let me copy this link over. I don't know why it's... I don't know why it's doing

725
00:54:50,748 --> 00:54:55,708
such a thing. Let me see if we can do this.

726
00:54:55,708 --> 00:55:20,828
Okay. Okay, wait. Okay, great.

727
00:55:20,828 --> 00:55:35,548
Okay, good. Let's see if we can... Sorry, the old one is still running, so let me do that here.

728
00:55:50,828 --> 00:56:14,588
Okay, there we go. Weird interruption there, but new spaces here. Supertestnet can speak in this one.

729
00:56:15,387 --> 00:56:22,747
I posted the link below the old one. I'm going to close that one now. Let's see if we can close that one.

730
00:56:30,908 --> 00:56:34,747
Okay, that one's now killed, so hopefully those people will be able to come over,

731
00:56:34,747 --> 00:56:39,628
and it won't be as confusing, but it's a pretty confusing, obviously, situation. We'll see if it's...

732
00:56:39,628 --> 00:56:49,228
We'll see if that is able to work. Of course, the downside of doing it from my own account is that

733
00:56:49,228 --> 00:56:53,468
this is the account where, for some reason, it will fill up. The cache will fill up, and then it will

734
00:56:53,468 --> 00:57:02,427
just crash and die. Naturally. Nothing can work forever, I suppose. It will kill... If it

735
00:57:02,427 --> 00:57:09,228
crashes on my phone, the entire space will go down, but whatever, you know. I'm more fatigued, as they

736
00:57:09,228 --> 00:57:16,828
say, right? I haven't heard them say that, but it sounds like a thing people might say.

737
00:57:16,828 --> 00:57:25,948
Someone said it once, I think, and or wrote it down. Okay, great. So, we'll see if we get...

738
00:57:25,948 --> 00:57:32,508
Let's see what happened to... What is his exact screen name? Because it's got cut off in

739
00:57:32,508 --> 00:57:37,627
the window, and I don't remember exactly what it was. I think it's Orkin. Okay.

740
00:57:40,028 --> 00:57:42,347
We'll get that. I'll try to figure that out.

741
00:57:45,868 --> 00:57:53,388
Okay. I will message his name to you. Yeah. Okay, thanks.

742
00:57:53,468 --> 00:57:59,308
There you go. I just posted it there in a DM.

743
00:58:02,907 --> 00:58:03,787
Okay, cool. Thanks.

744
00:58:06,508 --> 00:58:10,668
Oh, I get it now. Really? That's his name? Are you sure?

745
00:58:12,267 --> 00:58:13,147
I'm pretty sure.

746
00:58:16,427 --> 00:58:20,187
He was a different... He was like a red icon. This is someone with only 76 followers.

747
00:58:20,828 --> 00:58:22,267
Man, I guess I don't know his name.

748
00:58:24,748 --> 00:58:29,468
I thought it was... I thought it started with Krita or whatever.

749
00:58:29,468 --> 00:58:35,707
I think I accidentally got a spammer... a scammer's link here. I misunderstood it again.

750
00:58:37,707 --> 00:58:46,347
Someone says, add a co-host will help. Okay, that's smart. Yeah, we'll get that.

751
00:58:50,267 --> 00:58:57,388
Wait, he's here. I think he's... Did you... You forgot the underscore, I think.

752
00:58:57,388 --> 00:58:59,388
I forgot the underscore, and I capitalized the thing,

753
00:58:59,388 --> 00:59:03,307
although I don't think Krita cares about capitals. But yeah, I forgot the underscore.

754
00:59:04,668 --> 00:59:10,187
And that, kids, is why I can try to ban all that stuff. Uppercase, lowercase,

755
00:59:11,388 --> 00:59:13,867
underscores and things from domain names.

756
00:59:16,508 --> 00:59:20,027
Here we are. Let's see. We'll make Satoshi enjoy our co-host. I don't know why.

757
00:59:20,747 --> 00:59:25,228
Because then maybe if it crashes, it won't. Oh, wait. Here we go.

758
00:59:25,228 --> 00:59:27,388
Suppose you invite the same person as Eric?

759
00:59:27,388 --> 00:59:30,988
No, I'm not. I'm not the same person.

760
00:59:30,988 --> 00:59:35,307
Okay. Okay, here we go. Now I have redundancy.

761
00:59:37,148 --> 00:59:43,067
Now we'll see if any of this works. It may or it may not.

762
00:59:46,747 --> 00:59:49,867
Happy Friday, everyone. I'll try to invite Eric as well.

763
00:59:49,948 --> 00:59:56,828
All right. Oh, good. Yes, here he is. Okay. So, Super, maybe there were things you wanted to say.

764
00:59:56,828 --> 00:59:59,148
Maybe you forgot about them. Maybe you remember them.

765
01:00:01,148 --> 01:00:06,027
I was hoping to say, well, that's all for me. Have a great rest of the space.

766
01:00:06,907 --> 01:00:09,548
That's very polite of you to say, and very important.

767
01:00:10,988 --> 01:00:18,347
I'm just kidding. I don't remember all the... I was frantically trying to connect,

768
01:00:18,347 --> 01:00:19,388
and that was all I was doing.

769
01:00:20,187 --> 01:00:24,268
Let's see. Some of the things we were talking about were, like, unilateral exit.

770
01:00:24,268 --> 01:00:28,508
We talked about that. We talked about what is a roll-up anyway? Does this word even...

771
01:00:28,508 --> 01:00:31,867
Oh, yeah. I did have a thing to comment about unilateral exit,

772
01:00:31,867 --> 01:00:39,307
and it had to do with Eric's assessments of what... He called it the BitVM bridge is not

773
01:00:39,307 --> 01:00:42,988
exactly the same as a roll-up because you don't have a unilateral exit due to the fact that

774
01:00:44,587 --> 01:00:47,307
one out of N people need to be trusted, to be honest.

775
01:00:48,027 --> 01:00:52,587
However, there is a model of a BitVM bridge that does not have that assumption,

776
01:00:52,587 --> 01:01:01,627
and from which every user can exit without needing to trust a federation,

777
01:01:01,627 --> 01:01:03,467
or even one out of N in a federation.

778
01:01:04,027 --> 01:01:06,747
And I wrote about it in a little paper I wrote called Unisob,

779
01:01:07,388 --> 01:01:12,187
which is unnamed non-custodial in Kuwait sidechains on BitVM,

780
01:01:12,747 --> 01:01:16,428
where I propose a model that doesn't have that same trust assumption,

781
01:01:16,428 --> 01:01:18,587
but in fact, every user can unilaterally exit.

782
01:01:19,148 --> 01:01:24,108
So I'm hoping to build my own sidechain that uses this model,

783
01:01:25,228 --> 01:01:28,268
but I haven't done it because I've been working on other projects.

784
01:01:28,268 --> 01:01:32,347
But yeah, that is on my to-do list, is to make a better...

785
01:01:32,347 --> 01:01:33,787
Great name. I love it.

786
01:01:34,508 --> 01:01:42,027
But I have this argument that I raised a moment ago about the unilateral exit

787
01:01:42,027 --> 01:01:45,307
being a useless feature, even though a lot of people love this feature.

788
01:01:46,428 --> 01:01:50,587
When it comes to scale, it doesn't do anything because you have the other half...

789
01:01:52,907 --> 01:01:56,187
You can't, like, everyone can't get to L1.

790
01:01:56,187 --> 01:02:02,268
So the L1, you can never scale past the size of L1 if you want unilateral exit.

791
01:02:02,268 --> 01:02:03,067
So I just think it's...

792
01:02:03,627 --> 01:02:04,668
I think this is a really...

793
01:02:05,467 --> 01:02:09,388
This is a case wherever the entire industry has, like, fallen into a...

794
01:02:09,867 --> 01:02:10,828
Well, you might be able to get...

795
01:02:13,307 --> 01:02:19,627
I don't think it's the case that just because not everyone can get on the L1,

796
01:02:20,268 --> 01:02:24,907
therefore, no one should have the ability to, or I don't think that's your claim either.

797
01:02:25,948 --> 01:02:30,508
But I think that if you build a system where no one can get onto the L1,

798
01:02:31,228 --> 01:02:35,948
it's worse than building one where you can do that.

799
01:02:36,508 --> 01:02:38,907
But it's true that not everyone will be able to do it.

800
01:02:38,907 --> 01:02:43,948
But as long as you make it so that anyone can create this contract,

801
01:02:43,948 --> 01:02:48,828
if they have enough money, then that's better than a situation where no one can, in my opinion.

802
01:02:52,027 --> 01:02:53,388
I mean, yeah, I would agree with that.

803
01:02:54,347 --> 01:02:55,148
I think...

804
01:02:55,148 --> 01:02:56,428
So that's why I want...

805
01:02:56,428 --> 01:02:57,067
I even...

806
01:02:57,067 --> 01:02:58,347
Although Robin's model...

807
01:03:00,027 --> 01:03:00,747
Go ahead.

808
01:03:00,747 --> 01:03:01,067
Okay.

809
01:03:01,867 --> 01:03:02,187
Yes.

810
01:03:02,268 --> 01:03:09,788
What I'm thinking in my head is every single L2 has some kind of argument for why they're going to...

811
01:03:09,788 --> 01:03:11,948
Why you will get your money on L1.

812
01:03:11,948 --> 01:03:12,508
You know what I mean?

813
01:03:12,508 --> 01:03:15,148
And none of them have, like, some kind of magic fundamental status.

814
01:03:16,107 --> 01:03:18,987
They're always kind of just...

815
01:03:18,987 --> 01:03:22,187
They're always merely an argument, like, even in the case of Lightning.

816
01:03:22,828 --> 01:03:23,867
It's like you have a channel...

817
01:03:24,987 --> 01:03:28,987
There is the, quote, unilateral exit, but this assumes that all kinds of things, you know?

818
01:03:28,987 --> 01:03:29,867
Like that you won't be...

819
01:03:31,227 --> 01:03:36,987
Like that the fee environment will be conducive to you redeeming the justice transaction,

820
01:03:36,987 --> 01:03:40,828
or that you will be able to get it in in time before the...

821
01:03:40,828 --> 01:03:43,547
So it's a very, very strong argument.

822
01:03:43,547 --> 01:03:46,187
But I think every single L2 has this argument.

823
01:03:46,187 --> 01:03:49,867
So then it's as if the unilateral exit people, they want to sort of sort...

824
01:03:51,468 --> 01:03:53,948
They have to sort the toys into two bins,

825
01:03:53,948 --> 01:03:57,067
where it's like one has unilateral exit and the other does not.

826
01:03:57,067 --> 01:04:03,307
But in my point of view, all of them have some kind of argument for why...

827
01:04:03,307 --> 01:04:07,627
Yeah, they have some kind of argument for why you will get the L1 coins if you want them.

828
01:04:09,148 --> 01:04:13,067
Every single one of them is in that bin, and then there's none in the other bin.

829
01:04:13,067 --> 01:04:14,588
So I think you're right.

830
01:04:14,588 --> 01:04:15,788
I mean, I think we sort of agree.

831
01:04:16,747 --> 01:04:17,307
I'm not sure.

832
01:04:17,867 --> 01:04:18,667
I don't know.

833
01:04:18,667 --> 01:04:20,187
I think the stress is...

834
01:04:21,067 --> 01:04:25,148
I think the nuance makes it so that the unilateral exit term

835
01:04:25,867 --> 01:04:29,468
does not do a lot of work that people think it does.

836
01:04:31,148 --> 01:04:34,908
In Bitcoin, you only get a transaction on L1 if you can afford it.

837
01:04:34,908 --> 01:04:39,547
And if we end up in a future where 8 billion people are using Bitcoin,

838
01:04:39,547 --> 01:04:43,148
and if we end up in a future where blocks are still what they are currently,

839
01:04:43,148 --> 01:04:44,987
I don't see how everyone can afford it.

840
01:04:45,948 --> 01:04:51,227
And consequently, every L2 must have a conditional exit

841
01:04:51,227 --> 01:04:53,148
where you can only do it if you can afford it.

842
01:04:53,948 --> 01:04:55,867
However, depending on the design you make,

843
01:04:55,867 --> 01:04:57,788
you can have more flexibility on these things

844
01:04:58,667 --> 01:05:02,747
if the design of it is made in such a way that

845
01:05:04,427 --> 01:05:08,427
determining whether you get an exit has to do with whether you can afford it

846
01:05:08,427 --> 01:05:12,348
and whether miners are censoring you and Bitcoin standard trust assumptions,

847
01:05:12,427 --> 01:05:19,067
rather than some federation is going to let you out if they decide to.

848
01:05:20,107 --> 01:05:21,627
Or similar things like that.

849
01:05:21,627 --> 01:05:22,747
At least that's my perspective.

850
01:05:22,747 --> 01:05:26,828
I like to build things that adopt Bitcoin standard trust assumptions

851
01:05:27,708 --> 01:05:30,667
and as few as possible new ones.

852
01:05:32,987 --> 01:05:34,107
I have a comment on this.

853
01:05:35,547 --> 01:05:39,867
It has some hypothetical ZKP opcode and recursive covenants.

854
01:05:39,867 --> 01:05:45,547
You can design a system where you can batch all the withdrawals on the L2 with ZKPs

855
01:05:45,547 --> 01:05:48,348
and submit a single ZKP to the base layer

856
01:05:48,348 --> 01:05:51,867
and move the UTXO to some covenant UTXO

857
01:05:51,867 --> 01:05:56,348
so that people can take their money and leave at some point in the future.

858
01:05:57,468 --> 01:06:01,067
The thing is that, okay, I understand that 8 billion people

859
01:06:01,067 --> 01:06:03,148
cannot exit to the Bitcoin at once,

860
01:06:03,148 --> 01:06:06,028
but they can exit in the batches and in the future they can

861
01:06:06,987 --> 01:06:12,107
separate their UTXOs from the main UTXO with the Bitcoin equivalent security

862
01:06:12,107 --> 01:06:15,067
if you have covenants and ZKP verification on the base layer.

863
01:06:16,107 --> 01:06:17,227
Yeah, that's a very good point.

864
01:06:17,227 --> 01:06:22,588
In that case, you unilaterally exit the L2 to a different L2.

865
01:06:23,867 --> 01:06:25,067
No, to the L1.

866
01:06:26,348 --> 01:06:30,747
Well, not really though, because you don't have the L1 UTXO,

867
01:06:31,227 --> 01:06:34,187
but you could have some kind of like CTV thing

868
01:06:34,187 --> 01:06:38,908
where you know that you will get one sometime in the next whatever.

869
01:06:38,908 --> 01:06:40,747
Okay, that's something different.

870
01:06:40,747 --> 01:06:45,948
I feel like CTV is much more secure than any kind of things.

871
01:06:47,547 --> 01:06:48,107
Interesting.

872
01:06:51,307 --> 01:06:54,828
Because I think the smart thing is not to...

873
01:06:54,908 --> 01:06:56,588
The smart thing is not to...

874
01:06:57,468 --> 01:07:02,747
Well, as I've said, it's just the idea of pursuing the ability of everyone

875
01:07:02,747 --> 01:07:09,148
to have their own L1 UTXO, that just is large blocks.

876
01:07:10,028 --> 01:07:11,307
There's no other thing that that is.

877
01:07:12,268 --> 01:07:14,427
Some people shouldn't have their own UTXOs,

878
01:07:14,427 --> 01:07:16,908
but if they want, they need to own it.

879
01:07:16,908 --> 01:07:20,828
But if they don't, they can basically use an L2 which has a single UTXO.

880
01:07:21,627 --> 01:07:27,867
The idea of migrating out of L2a and into L2b, I think has merit.

881
01:07:29,148 --> 01:07:31,388
You could design a system like that where...

882
01:07:32,268 --> 01:07:36,107
Well, and I guess in some sense, L2a would then be L3,

883
01:07:36,107 --> 01:07:39,788
because then you're actually exiting into another...

884
01:07:39,788 --> 01:07:42,908
Into what from its perspective is L1 is actually yet another L2.

885
01:07:46,908 --> 01:07:50,268
Yeah, I think it is like if you dig down in theory too much,

886
01:07:50,747 --> 01:07:54,107
but in practice, I feel like it is Bitcoin-equivalent security

887
01:07:54,107 --> 01:07:55,867
and the most viable way to do it.

888
01:07:55,867 --> 01:07:57,547
But yeah, it is available, of course.

889
01:08:08,747 --> 01:08:09,627
Super, anything else?

890
01:08:09,627 --> 01:08:13,468
Let's see, after we talked about unilateral exit, we did talk about...

891
01:08:13,468 --> 01:08:14,987
Do you have any thoughts on this whole roll-up?

892
01:08:14,987 --> 01:08:16,348
I mean, I don't know about this.

893
01:08:18,588 --> 01:08:19,948
I just don't know about this word.

894
01:08:20,028 --> 01:08:20,588
It seems to be...

895
01:08:21,307 --> 01:08:23,708
I feel like I understand it decently,

896
01:08:23,708 --> 01:08:27,307
but I feel like other people have very different definitions for it

897
01:08:27,307 --> 01:08:30,747
and I feel like it's not a very helpful word.

898
01:08:30,747 --> 01:08:34,268
The stuff that Eric shared earlier was news to me.

899
01:08:34,268 --> 01:08:37,627
I didn't know that, at least according to the definition he shared,

900
01:08:38,588 --> 01:08:39,788
if I understood it properly,

901
01:08:40,987 --> 01:08:45,948
all roll-ups by definition store all transaction data on the L1.

902
01:08:46,828 --> 01:08:48,588
That's news to me and I don't like it.

903
01:08:49,148 --> 01:08:51,148
Then it's kind of silly.

904
01:08:52,588 --> 01:08:54,987
Even that was not exactly what he meant to say.

905
01:08:54,987 --> 01:08:56,427
I think he meant to say something like

906
01:08:57,547 --> 01:09:01,307
every roll-up has the property that you store something,

907
01:09:01,307 --> 01:09:07,788
like the IKEA furniture, all in the box in its smallest crunched-up way.

908
01:09:08,427 --> 01:09:12,747
That's stored and if you combine that with the stuff on the L2,

909
01:09:12,747 --> 01:09:13,788
you get the whole picture,

910
01:09:13,788 --> 01:09:16,187
but you can never get anything other than the whole L2 picture.

911
01:09:16,908 --> 01:09:20,107
Then he did talk about storing the signatures.

912
01:09:21,708 --> 01:09:22,828
I think he was saying,

913
01:09:23,547 --> 01:09:25,148
it would be great if he was here,

914
01:09:25,148 --> 01:09:28,508
I think he was saying the signatures are in a different transaction on the L1.

915
01:09:31,148 --> 01:09:32,588
Maybe I can explain clearly.

916
01:09:33,148 --> 01:09:34,028
Eric did a great job,

917
01:09:34,028 --> 01:09:36,508
but I can talk in detail, much more technical maybe.

918
01:09:37,388 --> 01:09:41,067
Basically, if you want to build a ZK roll-up,

919
01:09:41,067 --> 01:09:44,508
this means that you aggregate all the transactions on the L2.

920
01:09:45,227 --> 01:09:46,268
We call them batches,

921
01:09:46,908 --> 01:09:49,867
and you basically put the batch in a ZK circuit.

922
01:09:49,867 --> 01:09:53,788
A ZK circuit basically states that every single transaction is correct

923
01:09:53,788 --> 01:09:55,227
based on the latest state,

924
01:09:55,227 --> 01:09:57,627
and the signatures are correct, everything is correct.

925
01:09:57,627 --> 01:10:00,508
Then you output a thing that's called state difference.

926
01:10:00,508 --> 01:10:03,547
It is the difference between the latest Merkle tree

927
01:10:03,547 --> 01:10:04,987
and the initial Merkle tree.

928
01:10:04,987 --> 01:10:06,987
So you are not putting transaction signatures

929
01:10:06,987 --> 01:10:08,187
because they are not needed.

930
01:10:08,187 --> 01:10:10,107
ZK proof already verified that.

931
01:10:10,107 --> 01:10:13,948
You are just putting the data that you need to reconstruct the state.

932
01:10:14,747 --> 01:10:19,708
So if you put all the state diffs and the proof to the L1,

933
01:10:19,708 --> 01:10:23,388
this means that if you scan the L1 since block zero,

934
01:10:23,388 --> 01:10:25,948
you can adapt this difference into the genesis state,

935
01:10:25,948 --> 01:10:28,747
and eventually you will have the all L2 state

936
01:10:28,747 --> 01:10:31,307
so that you can create a Merkle proof of your account,

937
01:10:31,307 --> 01:10:33,948
then you can exit unilaterally in the L1.

938
01:10:34,747 --> 01:10:36,268
But if you post that...

939
01:10:37,388 --> 01:10:39,788
I'm still way back in the first three sentences you said,

940
01:10:39,788 --> 01:10:42,268
and you've gone 14 sentences past that now.

941
01:10:42,588 --> 01:10:43,788
Sorry?

942
01:10:44,747 --> 01:10:48,427
I said you left me behind a long time ago.

943
01:10:50,348 --> 01:10:51,547
Where did you lose me?

944
01:10:54,348 --> 01:10:59,627
I'm still processing this statement you said earlier that you...

945
01:11:00,427 --> 01:11:02,508
Well, I can't even remember the earlier statements now.

946
01:11:03,468 --> 01:11:04,747
I'm just way lost in this whole...

947
01:11:05,547 --> 01:11:09,948
There's so much new stuff to learn in this roll-up conversation.

948
01:11:12,348 --> 01:11:12,848
So...

949
01:11:15,067 --> 01:11:16,667
I thought it was a little confusing also,

950
01:11:16,667 --> 01:11:18,268
but I don't really blame you.

951
01:11:18,908 --> 01:11:21,388
But maybe you could just start over maybe.

952
01:11:22,268 --> 01:11:23,067
Yeah, I can start over.

953
01:11:23,067 --> 01:11:26,107
But I guess I think the key is how do we sort...

954
01:11:26,667 --> 01:11:31,388
If a word is a good word, like red versus not red,

955
01:11:31,388 --> 01:11:34,028
it's like, when is it a roll-up and when is it not a roll-up?

956
01:11:34,747 --> 01:11:39,867
Okay, if you can reconstruct the whole L2 state from the L1 data,

957
01:11:40,828 --> 01:11:43,227
if you are posting some kind of data

958
01:11:43,227 --> 01:11:46,428
that eventually led you at the latest state of the L2,

959
01:11:46,428 --> 01:11:47,707
this can be difference of state,

960
01:11:47,707 --> 01:11:50,188
this can be full transaction data, it doesn't matter.

961
01:11:50,188 --> 01:11:52,428
If you can reconstruct the full L2 state,

962
01:11:52,428 --> 01:11:55,627
and if you have a single proof that can verify the whole L2,

963
01:11:55,627 --> 01:11:58,587
which is in case ZK roll-up, ZK proof, sorry,

964
01:11:58,587 --> 01:11:59,867
then this is a roll-up.

965
01:11:59,867 --> 01:12:01,947
And if you post the proof to the L1...

966
01:12:01,947 --> 01:12:05,068
No, no, no, you keep going.

967
01:12:05,068 --> 01:12:07,707
It's not, let's just pause there for a second.

968
01:12:08,268 --> 01:12:12,508
So if I can try and restate that, you talked about...

969
01:12:12,508 --> 01:12:19,227
Oh, no.

970
01:12:19,227 --> 01:12:20,668
I can't hear you.

971
01:12:20,668 --> 01:12:21,947
He went into connecting again.

972
01:12:24,827 --> 01:12:26,188
Why? I don't know why this is happening.

973
01:12:27,308 --> 01:12:28,188
Must be him then.

974
01:12:29,707 --> 01:12:30,508
Yeah, probably.

975
01:12:33,068 --> 01:12:36,587
By him, I mean mysterious network things

976
01:12:36,587 --> 01:12:39,627
that are, oh wait, now I see him as a speaker again.

977
01:12:40,827 --> 01:12:42,028
Super, are you there?

978
01:12:42,028 --> 01:12:44,188
No, it's only doing that before it kicks him out.

979
01:12:46,028 --> 01:12:47,947
Because of the way it refreshes the screen,

980
01:12:47,947 --> 01:12:48,987
I think I always see that.

981
01:12:50,508 --> 01:12:52,587
Well, okay, I find it hard.

982
01:12:52,587 --> 01:12:53,947
Maybe I can also help.

983
01:12:53,947 --> 01:12:55,627
I find it also hard to say,

984
01:12:56,827 --> 01:13:01,388
if everything that is needed is on L1,

985
01:13:01,388 --> 01:13:02,827
then why is there a different word for this

986
01:13:03,867 --> 01:13:04,668
than other things?

987
01:13:05,148 --> 01:13:07,308
Yeah, because if you use state difference

988
01:13:07,308 --> 01:13:08,668
or if you have a light node,

989
01:13:08,668 --> 01:13:10,987
you don't have to process all the transactions.

990
01:13:10,987 --> 01:13:12,747
Imagine you have a Bitcoin SPV, right?

991
01:13:12,747 --> 01:13:13,707
Bitcoin light node.

992
01:13:14,508 --> 01:13:16,668
Then if you post all the transaction data

993
01:13:16,668 --> 01:13:19,148
and if you want to know the latest L2 state,

994
01:13:19,148 --> 01:13:20,827
you need to have a, for example,

995
01:13:20,827 --> 01:13:22,747
if this runs some virtual machine,

996
01:13:22,747 --> 01:13:24,188
you need to have that virtual machine

997
01:13:24,188 --> 01:13:25,308
on your mobile phone

998
01:13:25,308 --> 01:13:27,227
and you need to process all the transactions,

999
01:13:27,227 --> 01:13:30,668
which is incredibly high resource computing, right?

1000
01:13:30,668 --> 01:13:32,668
But with rollup keyword,

1001
01:13:32,668 --> 01:13:35,388
you actually get a ZK proof or fraud proof

1002
01:13:35,388 --> 01:13:38,347
that can give you the state truth trustlessly.

1003
01:13:38,347 --> 01:13:41,707
This is the whole point of having a rollup.

1004
01:13:41,707 --> 01:13:44,428
And if you post that data as well on chain,

1005
01:13:44,428 --> 01:13:46,827
either state diffs or full transaction data,

1006
01:13:46,827 --> 01:13:49,227
then you can also unilaterally exit.

1007
01:13:49,227 --> 01:13:52,347
If you don't push data to the L1,

1008
01:13:52,347 --> 01:13:54,028
you need to push to somewhere else.

1009
01:13:54,028 --> 01:13:58,347
And that becomes a data unavailability problem.

1010
01:13:58,347 --> 01:14:00,428
So you still get the state truth trustlessly

1011
01:14:00,428 --> 01:14:02,107
with the proof that you get,

1012
01:14:02,107 --> 01:14:04,508
but you need to find the data to exit.

1013
01:14:04,508 --> 01:14:08,268
These are two separate things you need to consider.

1014
01:14:08,268 --> 01:14:09,308
In the ZK rollup,

1015
01:14:09,308 --> 01:14:11,308
you just have a single proof

1016
01:14:11,308 --> 01:14:12,987
that you can verify the whole chain

1017
01:14:12,987 --> 01:14:14,827
by just looking to the latest proof,

1018
01:14:14,827 --> 01:14:17,227
either via Bitcoin SPV or full node.

1019
01:14:17,227 --> 01:14:20,028
And also you post some minimal data to Bitcoin

1020
01:14:20,028 --> 01:14:22,028
to reconstruct the state again

1021
01:14:22,028 --> 01:14:24,188
so that you can unilaterally exit.

1022
01:14:24,188 --> 01:14:25,947
This is the whole point of the rollup debate.

1023
01:14:25,947 --> 01:14:28,428
I have a question.

1024
01:14:29,227 --> 01:14:30,268
To recreate the state,

1025
01:14:30,268 --> 01:14:32,508
do you need the latest and the first one,

1026
01:14:32,508 --> 01:14:33,947
or do you need the first one

1027
01:14:33,947 --> 01:14:35,788
and all of them to the latest?

1028
01:14:37,259 --> 01:14:43,939
If you are using state diffs, you basically have the genesis state and you apply the difference to the Merkle tree in every single post.

1029
01:14:44,619 --> 01:14:48,739
So you need you need all the diffs to recreate the current state.

1030
01:14:50,939 --> 01:14:58,019
So in a way, it's like you're using Bitcoin Layer 1 as a SPV for your Layer 2.

1031
01:14:59,659 --> 01:15:00,659
Yeah, I will say that.

1032
01:15:01,259 --> 01:15:04,058
Not exactly, but like if you really zoom out a little bit.

1033
01:15:04,619 --> 01:15:05,699
I'm not sure about that.

1034
01:15:07,259 --> 01:15:11,139
But the whole point of hosting the data to the L1 is not the optimistic case.

1035
01:15:11,499 --> 01:15:13,619
You probably have the data in your node also.

1036
01:15:13,619 --> 01:15:15,058
You don't need to scan all the L1.

1037
01:15:15,099 --> 01:15:25,139
But in some case, if someone censors you and you cannot get the data to exit, then you can have your Bitcoin node running, which is the most censorship resistant node, then you can have the data.

1038
01:15:25,419 --> 01:15:32,459
This is the point. And ZK proof and fraud proof is just the thing so that you can get a single proof of all the blockchain.

1039
01:15:32,619 --> 01:15:34,299
So you can verify this in BitVM.

1040
01:15:34,299 --> 01:15:35,939
You can verify this in Bitcoin script.

1041
01:15:35,939 --> 01:15:37,459
You can verify in your mobile phone.

1042
01:15:37,779 --> 01:15:43,339
This is the point of compressing the execution with ZK or fraud proofs.

1043
01:15:45,019 --> 01:15:49,579
I have a question as far as how it seems like the state diffs is not that much data.

1044
01:15:51,939 --> 01:16:01,138
But as far as the BitVM side and how much data you need initially to start this, like what's the total amount of data to get this like up and running?

1045
01:16:02,138 --> 01:16:11,299
So in BitVM, everything is communicated off-chain and if everyone happy with the optimistic path, there is no on-chain footprint of things except all the like proofs and state diffs.

1046
01:16:11,498 --> 01:16:12,858
It has to happen on on-chain.

1047
01:16:13,259 --> 01:16:17,098
But in BitVM, you don't need any on-chain data if you are agreeing off-chain.

1048
01:16:17,339 --> 01:16:24,579
But if there is a disagreement, then in 40 transactions, you can prove that something is going wrong in the current BitVM.

1049
01:16:25,339 --> 01:16:27,538
Sorry, I'm going to interrupt you.

1050
01:16:27,538 --> 01:16:32,098
Before even that, the BitVM needs to be put on-chain, right?

1051
01:16:32,778 --> 01:16:34,498
It is just a single taproot address.

1052
01:16:34,498 --> 01:16:35,778
There is nothing put on-chain.

1053
01:16:36,098 --> 01:16:36,979
Got it. Got it.

1054
01:16:36,979 --> 01:16:42,339
And then after that, if there's a dispute, then it's 40 transactions of like minimal amount of data?

1055
01:16:43,379 --> 01:16:46,619
Yeah, it is just 40 Bitcoin transactions to resolve the dispute.

1056
01:16:46,779 --> 01:16:48,658
And it is in the current BitVM architecture.

1057
01:16:48,658 --> 01:16:56,499
If you make BitVM much more smaller, like not 4 billion steps, but 1 billion steps, then the amount of transaction needed on-chain is also getting smaller.

1058
01:16:57,538 --> 01:17:05,979
Got it. And as far as the state diffs, and they can be per block, per 10 blocks, really depends on your layer 2, right?

1059
01:17:06,738 --> 01:17:08,779
Yeah, there is some trade-off here.

1060
01:17:08,779 --> 01:17:14,658
If you push the data for every single L2 block, then you don't have any data scalability.

1061
01:17:14,938 --> 01:17:23,139
And if you like batch them together, you get data scalability, but you get pre-confirmations, which means that operator can reorg your thing.

1062
01:17:23,499 --> 01:17:33,378
This is trade-off. And if you breed some kind of like two or three sequencers on L2, then you can mitigate the reorg problem and use the L1 as effective as possible.

1063
01:17:35,458 --> 01:17:44,219
Got it. And in the current form, it would be the 1 of N for the dispute, as long as there's 1 of N of the federation is being honest.

1064
01:17:44,579 --> 01:17:47,178
Then you can peg out basically, right?

1065
01:17:47,859 --> 01:17:54,419
Yeah, that's correct. And hopefully in the future, if you have some ZKP verification on the base, then it will be trustless.

1066
01:17:54,938 --> 01:17:57,098
If you have your own node, you can let it exist.

1067
01:17:57,658 --> 01:18:10,219
Nice. And now, as far as the fees that are on the layer 2, is this dependent on the architecture to build it in a way where those fees are going to be going back to the L1 miners, but they don't have to be?

1068
01:18:10,658 --> 01:18:11,738
Is that how it works?

1069
01:18:11,859 --> 01:18:17,499
No, all fees have to go L1 because you are posting the data to the L1 and you need to pay for it.

1070
01:18:19,818 --> 01:18:22,339
So let's say you do a transaction on the L2.

1071
01:18:23,219 --> 01:18:28,139
So it's going, the fee is going somewhere and that fee is just...

1072
01:18:28,139 --> 01:18:37,098
Yes, fee is collected by sequencer, which is some kind of operator, and then it posts the data on-chain while posting it basically pays a fee.

1073
01:18:37,979 --> 01:18:46,779
Uh-huh. Is there any way for this sequencer, if the whole Federation wants to lie, can they take the fees from this sequencer or something?

1074
01:18:47,859 --> 01:18:49,699
No, it is not about the Federation.

1075
01:18:50,339 --> 01:18:55,498
If they take the fee, basically, there will be no proof on the base layer and they will get slashed eventually.

1076
01:18:56,778 --> 01:19:00,938
I see, I see. So it's just part of the transaction fee on the base layer.

1077
01:19:02,218 --> 01:19:02,938
Yeah, kind of.

1078
01:19:03,938 --> 01:19:07,938
Okay, I think I'm starting to get it a little bit. I don't know, Paul, you have a questions?

1079
01:19:10,218 --> 01:19:19,459
Well, actually, I have a bunch of random like esoteric questions, like what exactly the 20 billion cycles figure refers to.

1080
01:19:19,818 --> 01:19:20,338
Yeah, sure.

1081
01:19:20,338 --> 01:19:23,658
But I don't know if anyone else is interested in such details.

1082
01:19:23,658 --> 01:19:27,899
So basically, I guess you are a bit familiar with Btfm, right?

1083
01:19:28,938 --> 01:19:29,459
Yes.

1084
01:19:29,979 --> 01:19:30,538
Yes.

1085
01:19:31,058 --> 01:19:40,739
So in the SupertestNet initial implementation, Btfm was basically running some Bristol circuits, some garbled circuits, bits like byte by byte, some kind of that.

1086
01:19:40,979 --> 01:19:50,658
But in the latest architecture that Robin is right now designing and building, it has some kind of instruction set, which is pretty similar to RISC-V architecture set.

1087
01:19:51,459 --> 01:20:02,778
And they designed it in a way that it can run 4 billion computer cycles so that you can get 40 transactions on Bitcoin to resolve a dispute.

1088
01:20:02,778 --> 01:20:08,778
You can obviously increase that to, for example, 20 billion, then you will get lots of on-chain transactions to resolve the dispute.

1089
01:20:09,058 --> 01:20:10,979
They limit it in 4 billion.

1090
01:20:11,179 --> 01:20:17,699
And as of yesterday, we managed to build a growth 16 verifier that can run under 4 billion cycles.

1091
01:20:17,979 --> 01:20:30,739
This means that you can basically build any computation you want in ZK circuit and create a proof for it, then verify this proof in Btfm so that Bitcoin verifies all the off-chain execution, no matter what it is.

1092
01:20:37,859 --> 01:20:41,378
I'm not sure that I totally get it, but I'll have to study it more.

1093
01:20:43,579 --> 01:20:44,579
Guys, I have tried.

1094
01:20:44,739 --> 01:20:46,899
I invited SupertestNet many times.

1095
01:20:46,899 --> 01:20:50,899
As the speaker and the co-host, but it doesn't seem to work.

1096
01:20:50,899 --> 01:20:51,899
It seems to be cursed.

1097
01:20:52,218 --> 01:20:54,338
Yeah, maybe we need to like leave it today.

1098
01:20:54,378 --> 01:20:56,098
It is almost 10 p.m.

1099
01:20:56,699 --> 01:20:57,498
Friday night.

1100
01:20:57,498 --> 01:20:58,979
So, yes, of course.

1101
01:21:00,058 --> 01:21:05,979
Well, hey, thanks for joining and explaining your project.

1102
01:21:07,139 --> 01:21:08,019
Thank you for having me.

1103
01:21:08,419 --> 01:21:10,098
Yeah, I have a question.

1104
01:21:10,899 --> 01:21:13,218
Are you launching a testnet sometime soon?

1105
01:21:13,218 --> 01:21:15,058
Something to look forward to anytime soon?

1106
01:21:15,579 --> 01:21:18,979
Hopefully in April or May, we want to have a public testnet.

1107
01:21:20,899 --> 01:21:21,419
Nice.

1108
01:21:21,618 --> 01:21:22,859
It worked, I think I'm back.

1109
01:21:23,058 --> 01:21:23,579
Welcome back.

1110
01:21:23,579 --> 01:21:24,218
Oh, it did work.

1111
01:21:24,378 --> 01:21:25,179
Look, you are back.

1112
01:21:25,218 --> 01:21:26,459
Wow. Amazing.

1113
01:21:28,979 --> 01:21:30,179
Great space, guys.

1114
01:21:32,299 --> 01:21:34,899
One second, I don't know if Orkin, if you're going to leave yet.

1115
01:21:35,498 --> 01:21:38,979
Now that SupertestNet is back, if you want to give him a chance to ask anything.

1116
01:21:38,979 --> 01:21:39,859
But if you have to go.

1117
01:21:40,218 --> 01:21:42,179
Yeah, if you have a question, I can continue.

1118
01:21:42,179 --> 01:21:42,859
But if you don't.

1119
01:21:43,378 --> 01:21:44,859
Was there something you wanted me to say?

1120
01:21:45,938 --> 01:21:50,259
No, I feel like before, like you were trying to understand things and then, you know, you got cut off.

1121
01:21:50,299 --> 01:21:51,938
So I wanted to give you a chance now that you're back.

1122
01:21:55,699 --> 01:21:57,658
Can we get Eric Walsh's opinion on this?

1123
01:21:58,818 --> 01:22:07,058
Oh, yeah, we did have him up before, but then the space glitched out and we and I think I have invited him to speak.

1124
01:22:07,979 --> 01:22:10,739
But the spaces are being very weird today.

1125
01:22:11,338 --> 01:22:12,419
Yeah, they are.

1126
01:22:13,019 --> 01:22:15,218
I like Eric Walsh, Eric Walsh is a dude.

1127
01:22:16,778 --> 01:22:17,579
Yes, he is.

1128
01:22:20,259 --> 01:22:21,338
Don't be shy, Eric.

1129
01:22:21,699 --> 01:22:22,778
Come and show us some love.

1130
01:22:25,739 --> 01:22:27,419
Richard Hart ain't in here, bro.

1131
01:22:31,618 --> 01:22:32,419
Come on, Eric.

1132
01:22:32,419 --> 01:22:36,019
I can't wait for the Richard Hart, you know, documentary or whatever they do.

1133
01:22:36,378 --> 01:22:37,459
It's already out, dude.

1134
01:22:37,618 --> 01:22:38,459
It's a shit show.

1135
01:22:38,899 --> 01:22:40,218
Yeah, it was already out.

1136
01:22:40,459 --> 01:22:41,259
What was it called?

1137
01:22:41,859 --> 01:22:43,378
It's called The Highest of Stakes.

1138
01:22:44,058 --> 01:22:45,259
Nice, I'm going to look it up.

1139
01:22:45,299 --> 01:22:46,338
I love that type of thing.

1140
01:22:46,459 --> 01:22:51,058
I love like all documentaries about like doomed things.

1141
01:22:51,058 --> 01:22:54,899
Like I love like the Theranos documentary, I love like Fire Festival, like I love that stuff.

1142
01:22:55,139 --> 01:22:56,058
So this is like...

1143
01:22:56,859 --> 01:22:58,019
Yeah, it was out a while ago.

1144
01:22:58,019 --> 01:22:58,538
I'm going to enjoy it.

1145
01:22:58,739 --> 01:22:59,739
Alright, I missed it.

1146
01:23:00,058 --> 01:23:00,859
I think all the heck.

1147
01:23:00,859 --> 01:23:02,899
No, it's on Amazon, I think.

1148
01:23:03,058 --> 01:23:03,739
All the heck.

1149
01:23:03,739 --> 01:23:04,618
I'm going to watch it.

1150
01:23:05,739 --> 01:23:09,219
All the heck, because oh my God, oh my God, a movie's coming out, the chart's going to pump.

1151
01:23:09,219 --> 01:23:13,219
And it literally did the complete opposite.

1152
01:23:13,298 --> 01:23:15,579
I'm waiting for Jack Levin movie to come out now.

1153
01:23:16,178 --> 01:23:20,139
The front run Jack Levin movie will be out soon.

1154
01:23:20,579 --> 01:23:24,139
This industry is so crazy.

1155
01:23:24,139 --> 01:23:28,418
Like it can't even be like, I've never even heard of anything like this.

1156
01:23:28,418 --> 01:23:37,858
This is like, you know, forget about anything you've ever read about Dutch tulip mania, 49ers, Gold Rush.

1157
01:23:37,858 --> 01:23:45,858
Like this is like all that stuff is like tiny, slow moving slugs compared to like what's happening in this industry all the time.

1158
01:23:45,858 --> 01:23:48,058
It's complete craziness.

1159
01:23:48,579 --> 01:23:49,378
It's crazy.

1160
01:23:49,459 --> 01:23:52,019
What do you think about the price of Bitcoin at the moment?

1161
01:23:52,659 --> 01:23:53,019
What is it?

1162
01:23:53,019 --> 01:23:55,058
It's gone over nearly 48,000.

1163
01:23:55,858 --> 01:23:56,418
Oh, yeah.

1164
01:23:56,418 --> 01:23:57,899
Everyone always wants to talk about the price.

1165
01:23:57,899 --> 01:24:04,659
I mean, I have like a, I think it's kind of like, you know, it's a little bit like the CEO talking about the stock price.

1166
01:24:04,659 --> 01:24:11,339
It's like, well, you know, we should be like focused on making the community great and making everyone.

1167
01:24:11,339 --> 01:24:17,779
But it's true that when the price goes up, it is validating and it does produce more recognizability for the coin.

1168
01:24:17,779 --> 01:24:24,818
So that's so it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, which is why that's one of the reasons why it moves in these huge, has a lot of momentum.

1169
01:24:24,818 --> 01:24:26,858
You know, like if it goes up, it's likely to go up.

1170
01:24:27,259 --> 01:24:28,938
And then if it goes down, it's likely to go down.

1171
01:24:28,938 --> 01:24:31,099
It's like a huge whiplash.

1172
01:24:31,459 --> 01:24:32,418
Yeah, I agree.

1173
01:24:32,818 --> 01:24:37,459
I think it's probably I like that, you know, I think it's good.

1174
01:24:37,459 --> 01:24:38,738
You know, when it goes up, it's good.

1175
01:24:38,738 --> 01:24:42,498
It makes it easier for everyone who works in the industry slightly.

1176
01:24:42,498 --> 01:24:46,178
It makes it easier for everyone who is in the community.

1177
01:24:46,418 --> 01:24:47,818
I think Eric Walsh has come in.

1178
01:24:47,818 --> 01:24:51,339
It looks like he might have left and then come back to see if he could talk.

1179
01:24:51,978 --> 01:24:52,779
Yeah, I don't know why.

1180
01:24:52,779 --> 01:24:54,738
I mean, for some reason, I don't know why.

1181
01:24:55,019 --> 01:24:59,699
For Supertest, it was broken for a while and then it just sort of fixed itself somehow just moments ago.

1182
01:25:00,339 --> 01:25:01,738
Can't be explained.

1183
01:25:01,738 --> 01:25:06,339
But I invited SupertestNet to co-host, but then he showed up as a speaker.

1184
01:25:06,339 --> 01:25:07,858
I'll invite Eric as a co-host.

1185
01:25:08,779 --> 01:25:10,378
Let's see if we can't get it to work.

1186
01:25:10,378 --> 01:25:15,378
My guess is that we probably cannot, but I don't know.

1187
01:25:16,459 --> 01:25:19,058
It says you're allowed up to two co-hosts to remove one co-host.

1188
01:25:19,058 --> 01:25:21,298
But no, I already had two and then I removed one.

1189
01:25:21,938 --> 01:25:22,779
So I only have one.

1190
01:25:23,339 --> 01:25:25,978
I think the whole thing is just glitched, unfortunately.

1191
01:25:26,618 --> 01:25:28,659
Often people see different things up here.

1192
01:25:28,659 --> 01:25:29,539
So I don't know.

1193
01:25:30,099 --> 01:25:33,579
Well, I can see Satoshi Enjoyer as a co-host.

1194
01:25:35,058 --> 01:25:36,339
Yeah, but I had two before.

1195
01:25:36,339 --> 01:25:41,459
I had Satoshi Enjoyer and I had the LayerTwo Labs Twitter as co-hosts.

1196
01:25:41,459 --> 01:25:44,659
I had two co-hosts and one regular host.

1197
01:25:46,938 --> 01:25:48,418
Maybe we'll switch.

1198
01:25:48,539 --> 01:25:52,378
See, the thing is, my own phone will often crash for some reason.

1199
01:25:52,738 --> 01:25:55,699
It's not my phone because I got a new phone twice.

1200
01:25:55,938 --> 01:25:59,099
But for some reason, when I use Twitter Spaces, it crashes.

1201
01:25:59,099 --> 01:26:01,339
So if I don't have a co-host, it will explode.

1202
01:26:01,899 --> 01:26:06,978
I think Eric Rohl is using the Twitter glitch as a reason not to come up.

1203
01:26:07,498 --> 01:26:08,498
Hmm, maybe.

1204
01:26:08,699 --> 01:26:13,418
No, no, I can see the profile picture of both SuperSusNet and Eric.

1205
01:26:13,858 --> 01:26:17,858
They move up to where they would be speakers and then they come back down.

1206
01:26:17,858 --> 01:26:19,699
But they're still as listeners.

1207
01:26:20,459 --> 01:26:24,058
I don't know if it's on my end or not, but I have to go help my wife cook.

1208
01:26:24,579 --> 01:26:26,139
So hopefully it's on my end.

1209
01:26:26,139 --> 01:26:27,738
I need to look for that.

1210
01:26:29,339 --> 01:26:31,498
Hey, thanks for coming, guys.

1211
01:26:31,498 --> 01:26:32,099
Thanks for doing this, man.

1212
01:26:32,099 --> 01:26:32,899
This has been great.

1213
01:26:32,899 --> 01:26:33,858
Very educational.

1214
01:26:33,858 --> 01:26:35,459
You guys have an amazing weekend.

1215
01:26:35,459 --> 01:26:37,858
And hopefully your problems will get fixed immediately.

1216
01:26:38,818 --> 01:26:39,579
We'll see.

1217
01:26:40,019 --> 01:26:41,259
Enjoy the rest of tonight.

1218
01:26:41,459 --> 01:26:41,978
Bye-bye.

1219
01:26:42,418 --> 01:26:42,938
See you.

1220
01:26:43,139 --> 01:26:43,498
Thank you.

1221
01:26:43,498 --> 01:26:44,219
Thank you, everybody.

1222
01:26:45,058 --> 01:26:50,099
It's unlikely because even when I can't even make the LayerTwo Labs account a co-host again.

1223
01:26:50,938 --> 01:26:51,659
I don't know why.

1224
01:26:52,418 --> 01:26:52,818
Because...

1225
01:26:53,498 --> 01:26:54,738
Let's see if I try one more time.

1226
01:26:55,738 --> 01:26:56,298
There we go.

1227
01:26:56,659 --> 01:26:57,818
Eric Walsh just left.

1228
01:26:57,818 --> 01:26:59,058
Maybe he might come back.

1229
01:26:59,058 --> 01:27:00,099
He might leave and come back.

1230
01:27:00,339 --> 01:27:01,178
Oh, he's back in.

1231
01:27:01,178 --> 01:27:03,659
Well, he does know a lot about roll-ups.

1232
01:27:03,659 --> 01:27:04,298
I'll give him that.

1233
01:27:04,738 --> 01:27:06,139
He's probably annoyed because we were...

1234
01:27:06,899 --> 01:27:08,298
It says you still cannot...

1235
01:27:08,418 --> 01:27:09,938
Who does it think is the other...

1236
01:27:10,178 --> 01:27:10,858
Let me see this.

1237
01:27:13,498 --> 01:27:15,498
I don't know who it thinks the other co-host is.

1238
01:27:17,219 --> 01:27:17,699
I don't know.

1239
01:27:18,899 --> 01:27:19,219
It's...

1240
01:27:19,579 --> 01:27:20,058
Okay.

1241
01:27:20,058 --> 01:27:22,139
Well, now we're back to only one co-host, though.

1242
01:27:22,539 --> 01:27:24,378
That didn't seem to help SuperSusNet at all.

1243
01:27:24,378 --> 01:27:24,978
I don't know why.

1244
01:27:25,099 --> 01:27:26,378
I don't know anything that's happened, but...

1245
01:27:26,818 --> 01:27:28,978
I can see only you as the host.

1246
01:27:29,339 --> 01:27:31,938
I can see LayerTwo Labs as the co-host.

1247
01:27:33,219 --> 01:27:34,899
And SuperSusNet as the speaker.

1248
01:27:35,779 --> 01:27:37,459
Oh, I see SuperSusNet as the listener.

1249
01:27:37,539 --> 01:27:38,818
I don't know, guys.

1250
01:27:38,818 --> 01:27:44,539
I apologize to everyone who's spending their Friday listening to this inane babble.

1251
01:27:44,659 --> 01:27:46,818
But it is what it is.

1252
01:27:46,818 --> 01:27:47,259
I don't know.

1253
01:27:47,339 --> 01:27:51,699
I don't know what action we can take that will resolve these matters.

1254
01:27:52,418 --> 01:27:54,139
Paul, do you think Richard Ault's going to prison?

1255
01:27:55,378 --> 01:28:03,978
I think, you know, since he's like a crafty Florida man, and I think that he will probably be able to just lay low for like a really long time.

1256
01:28:03,978 --> 01:28:06,219
It's like a certain type of personality, you know what I mean?

1257
01:28:06,219 --> 01:28:08,938
So I think that, I don't know if he will eventually be caught.

1258
01:28:09,699 --> 01:28:10,219
I don't know.

1259
01:28:10,659 --> 01:28:23,298
And there's a sense in which it's kind of like he was so, like, just weird about it all that you're kind of like, how do you not know that this is...

1260
01:28:24,858 --> 01:28:28,099
Like, everyone, I think most of the people involved, like, knew.

1261
01:28:29,738 --> 01:28:33,378
Like, I'm not really making a lot of sense right now, but it's like Charles Ponzi.

1262
01:28:33,378 --> 01:28:39,618
Apparently, he like, he would tell some people, like people who figured it out, they would say, no, this is a scam.

1263
01:28:39,858 --> 01:28:42,259
But we're scamming, like, the next guy.

1264
01:28:42,259 --> 01:28:44,339
You're in on it with me, you know?

1265
01:28:45,219 --> 01:28:45,579
Yeah.

1266
01:28:45,579 --> 01:28:47,978
And then they lost all their money and they blamed themselves.

1267
01:28:47,978 --> 01:28:49,858
You know, you can't cheat an honest man.

1268
01:28:49,858 --> 01:28:54,058
I believe that's, I think that's even a British saying or something.

1269
01:28:54,058 --> 01:28:54,659
I'm not sure, but...

1270
01:28:54,659 --> 01:28:58,219
I mean, we're talking about billions, literally billions of dollars, you know?

1271
01:28:58,219 --> 01:28:59,298
I know, yeah.

1272
01:28:59,779 --> 01:29:01,978
So I think, I think they're definitely going to try.

1273
01:29:02,618 --> 01:29:05,178
I mean, I honestly think he may just, like, anyone know where he is?

1274
01:29:05,178 --> 01:29:08,178
I think he's like, what country he's in or anything, I think he's totally vanished.

1275
01:29:08,178 --> 01:29:16,019
So he's been served, he's received it and he's instructed lawyers to represent him on his behalf.

1276
01:29:16,498 --> 01:29:19,779
So, yeah, he's received the SEC complaint.

1277
01:29:21,099 --> 01:29:23,659
Yeah, trial and absentia, something like that.

1278
01:29:23,659 --> 01:29:25,339
Yeah, possibly.

1279
01:29:27,539 --> 01:29:32,618
Yeah, and then if he's found guilty, he's going to be, he says, yeah, I'll show, I'll get right on that.

1280
01:29:33,459 --> 01:29:40,459
They're like, report to this jail and he'll just be like, yeah, he's going to be in Thailand or something.

1281
01:29:40,699 --> 01:29:42,378
He's in Finland, Helsinki.

1282
01:29:43,738 --> 01:29:44,498
Oh, that's cool.

1283
01:29:44,498 --> 01:29:46,298
I've always wanted to go to Finland, honestly.

1284
01:29:46,298 --> 01:29:48,219
It seems like kind of a cool place.

1285
01:29:48,219 --> 01:29:52,659
Yeah, now in NATO, so.

1286
01:29:54,938 --> 01:29:55,938
Where are you from?

1287
01:29:56,818 --> 01:29:57,818
I'm American.

1288
01:29:59,019 --> 01:30:01,019
You've got a very American accent.

1289
01:30:01,019 --> 01:30:04,618
I don't, I have a weird, I have a weird accent that no one can explain.

1290
01:30:08,099 --> 01:30:08,618
Yeah.

1291
01:30:10,498 --> 01:30:14,978
Yes, but I am from, I'm from Connecticut, from outside of New York City.

1292
01:30:15,298 --> 01:30:15,818
So.

1293
01:30:15,818 --> 01:30:17,579
OK, nice.

1294
01:30:17,618 --> 01:30:19,019
Oh, Eric Walsh has come back in.

1295
01:30:19,019 --> 01:30:19,858
Maybe he's received.

1296
01:30:19,858 --> 01:30:20,738
He's come back in.

1297
01:30:20,738 --> 01:30:22,139
I don't know what we can do.

1298
01:30:23,378 --> 01:30:25,058
When he comes in, I send him the invite.

1299
01:30:25,779 --> 01:30:26,779
I'd love to hear it.

1300
01:30:27,699 --> 01:30:31,858
He was talking before in the other, let's see if I can invite him.

1301
01:30:31,899 --> 01:30:34,818
No, I cannot invite him to co-host, but I can invite him to speak.

1302
01:30:35,699 --> 01:30:36,978
I would love to hear Eric's.

1303
01:30:37,058 --> 01:30:43,219
The first one. And he was, yeah, he was laying down a lot of knowledge on us about the exact definition of a roll up.

1304
01:30:44,219 --> 01:30:45,219
I don't know.

1305
01:30:45,219 --> 01:30:46,219
I hope it works.

1306
01:30:50,219 --> 01:30:55,019
Basic science suggests it will not work because it has not worked.

1307
01:30:55,659 --> 01:30:58,978
But for Super Testament, it's for some reason, it just randomly worked at some point.

1308
01:30:58,978 --> 01:31:00,579
It let me up as well.

1309
01:31:01,498 --> 01:31:01,938
Yeah, I know.

1310
01:31:01,938 --> 01:31:02,938
That's other people up.

1311
01:31:04,818 --> 01:31:05,818
I got John B.

1312
01:31:05,818 --> 01:31:06,579
Thirteen.

1313
01:31:06,579 --> 01:31:07,579
He's up also.

1314
01:31:08,298 --> 01:31:09,298
Yeah, because they want him to come up.

1315
01:31:10,178 --> 01:31:11,178
What's up, guys?

1316
01:31:11,618 --> 01:31:12,618
Are you listening?

1317
01:31:13,139 --> 01:31:14,139
Yes, I hear you.

1318
01:31:16,378 --> 01:31:18,219
Oh, Super Testament is back somehow.

1319
01:31:20,259 --> 01:31:22,418
You see, I don't see him.

1320
01:31:23,418 --> 01:31:24,219
See him and hear him.

1321
01:31:24,219 --> 01:31:27,418
And now I see a request in one, which but I don't see who it is.

1322
01:31:27,418 --> 01:31:28,418
Let me see.

1323
01:31:28,978 --> 01:31:29,899
Don't give up, Eric.

1324
01:31:29,899 --> 01:31:31,659
We'll keep fighting the good fight.

1325
01:31:34,699 --> 01:31:39,539
I'm going to have not had a good time today, and so I'm going to head out.

1326
01:31:39,539 --> 01:31:42,019
But I appreciate all the attempts.

1327
01:31:43,419 --> 01:31:44,019
OK, great.

1328
01:31:44,019 --> 01:31:45,019
Hey, thanks for coming.

1329
01:31:47,458 --> 01:31:47,939
You're welcome.

1330
01:31:47,939 --> 01:31:48,939
Thank you for asking.

1331
01:31:50,218 --> 01:31:54,338
Paul, you should you should use Nostr Nests.

1332
01:31:54,498 --> 01:31:56,738
It's just like a space for.

1333
01:31:56,939 --> 01:31:58,539
Oh, that's great.

1334
01:31:59,858 --> 01:32:00,698
OK, cool.

1335
01:32:00,698 --> 01:32:03,098
Yeah, I didn't know that we had a phone.

1336
01:32:05,139 --> 01:32:06,139
So I do.

1337
01:32:08,338 --> 01:32:12,338
I think Nostr is a very good I think it Nostr is sort of unlikely

1338
01:32:12,338 --> 01:32:18,858
to work, but I'm very, very supportive and I'm happy that someone is trying it.

1339
01:32:20,139 --> 01:32:21,939
You know, we all live off of the.

1340
01:32:23,378 --> 01:32:26,179
The entrepreneurs who an optimist

1341
01:32:27,858 --> 01:32:31,978
who make new things, I'm pro Nostr, but I don't really

1342
01:32:32,458 --> 01:32:35,218
I'm just like a network effect kind of stickler.

1343
01:32:35,698 --> 01:32:38,899
And now that Elon, Elon is going to breathe new life into it

1344
01:32:38,899 --> 01:32:41,059
by kind of like into Twitter.

1345
01:32:41,779 --> 01:32:46,019
But but how the fuck the history man in the world

1346
01:32:46,218 --> 01:32:48,498
can't make the space work properly?

1347
01:32:48,978 --> 01:32:49,978
I don't know.

1348
01:32:49,978 --> 01:32:52,659
Nostr Nests works fine.

1349
01:32:53,098 --> 01:32:55,939
I mean, I think we'll try Nostr Nests next time.

1350
01:32:55,978 --> 01:32:57,259
I think we will.

1351
01:32:57,259 --> 01:33:00,698
There are some bugs, but there is no money there, almost no money

1352
01:33:01,139 --> 01:33:03,098
instead of billions here.

1353
01:33:03,098 --> 01:33:05,098
Yeah. Billions no fix code.

1354
01:33:07,458 --> 01:33:08,978
Yeah, apparently not.

1355
01:33:08,978 --> 01:33:10,059
I don't know.

1356
01:33:10,218 --> 01:33:11,338
OK, we have David here.

1357
01:33:11,338 --> 01:33:13,618
Hello. Hey, what's up?

1358
01:33:14,098 --> 01:33:17,338
So I unfortunately missed the first initial call.

1359
01:33:17,338 --> 01:33:18,978
And then I think that was right when Eric was up here

1360
01:33:18,978 --> 01:33:20,819
and he's talking about roll ups and dropping some knowledge and stuff.

1361
01:33:20,819 --> 01:33:23,338
And I'm just like, I'm very interested to get that conversation back.

1362
01:33:23,338 --> 01:33:26,059
I know he's like driving through Costa Rica right now

1363
01:33:26,059 --> 01:33:27,259
and not able to get up in the channel.

1364
01:33:27,259 --> 01:33:30,419
But Paul, do you mind kind of giving like your overview

1365
01:33:30,419 --> 01:33:31,618
of the assessment of what he was saying?

1366
01:33:31,618 --> 01:33:33,899
And maybe we could try to like piece it back together because.

1367
01:33:34,419 --> 01:33:37,738
No, I think that'll be torture for him and for but I can try.

1368
01:33:38,659 --> 01:33:40,939
He seemed to be saying a roll up for him.

1369
01:33:40,939 --> 01:33:44,819
The important thing about the roll up is that everything that's needed is on.

1370
01:33:45,858 --> 01:33:49,939
L1. And you can then expand it.

1371
01:33:50,019 --> 01:33:52,618
So like, for example, what I think most people would imagine

1372
01:33:52,618 --> 01:33:55,498
the quintessential roll up would be something like you have all these

1373
01:33:55,498 --> 01:33:58,939
transactions, the signatures can be shrunk down

1374
01:33:59,539 --> 01:34:02,458
into like one tiny thing.

1375
01:34:04,059 --> 01:34:06,059
And you put that on L1

1376
01:34:06,059 --> 01:34:09,819
and that that will later expand to be this huge shape

1377
01:34:09,819 --> 01:34:13,738
that signs for like whatever, like 2000 transactions or whatever it is.

1378
01:34:14,738 --> 01:34:17,978
And since the signature is like a signature can be very big.

1379
01:34:17,978 --> 01:34:20,578
So like if a Bitcoin transaction is like 220 bytes.

1380
01:34:22,299 --> 01:34:26,498
Signature could be like 64 or 71 bytes for each input.

1381
01:34:27,858 --> 01:34:31,779
So already that's 71.

1382
01:34:31,779 --> 01:34:34,338
It's almost almost half the, you know, a third.

1383
01:34:35,121 --> 01:35:05,121
Of each transaction, assuming it has one input only is the signature. So if you could, if you could strip all those out, and then maybe what you do is you publish, like, it really was the case somewhere else that on the L2, everyone made a transaction and everyone signed it. And there's all these signatures there. But like on L1, you have a super compressed signature and then like the transactions themselves. So it's, I think that's what people would say is the quintessential roll up. And I feel honestly, I feel terrible.

1384
01:35:05,121 --> 01:35:21,121
I don't know if there's something else that is the real understanding that I feel bad for myself and for everyone else. Because I feel like if my understanding is so bad at this point, then I don't know what other normal people are getting out of it. But then he released him. Yes.

1385
01:35:21,121 --> 01:35:29,121
Well, I can try to take a stab at maybe what he was trying to say. And you can let me know if it aligns.

1386
01:35:29,121 --> 01:35:52,121
Yeah, I mean, I think you have to break apart, like the concept of a roll up into, like, whether the L2 is inheriting the kind of consensus and the security of the L1. And then if it has like the trustless bridge, and I imagine what Eric was trying to say is that we could, in Bitcoin's current state, build what's called like a sovereign roll up, which means the data, all the transaction data is posted to the L1.

1387
01:35:52,121 --> 01:36:18,121
But because we cannot natively verify a zero knowledge proof, we can't create the trustless bridge. And so if we can, and so kind of Paul, like you were saying, it's like no matter what, with no sort of software whatsoever, we can always post the transaction data of the L2 into the L1. And that means that the L2, the roll up essentially cannot, you know, it cannot reorg independently of L1.

1388
01:36:19,121 --> 01:36:38,121
So that's the way to inherit the double spend protection of the L1. The problem is, it's like, well, is that really useful if you can't also create the trustless bridge Bitcoin? So in this scenario, you have the sovereign roll up, and then you would essentially need like a federated BTC into the roll up. Does that make sense?

1389
01:36:41,121 --> 01:36:42,121
It does make some sense. Yes.

1390
01:36:43,121 --> 01:37:09,121
Okay. And then I think if you want to create the trustless bridge, essentially what would happen is you have all of the transactions happening on the L2, you're posting that transaction data into the L1 in the sovereign sense. But then, like you said, you're using a zero knowledge proof on the L2 to compress all the computation, to compress all of those signatures into one singular proof that kind of validates that all of the state transitions on the L2 were valid.

1391
01:37:10,121 --> 01:37:30,121
What we want for that is like some sort of soft fork, like verifying a stark or a snark. But now, if we can do that with BitVM, then you potentially have a way to again, post the transaction data from L2 onto the L1 along with zero knowledge proof, and then you're using BitVM to verify that ZKP.

1392
01:37:31,121 --> 01:37:39,121
And that gives you kind of like somewhere in between trusted and trustless because BitVM has like the one event trust assumption.

1393
01:37:40,121 --> 01:37:58,121
Sure, but I did ask him like, his definition was very broad. And I asked him like is lightning network a roll up basically something like that. And he said there's no global state. But then I said each channel there is a state common to the two people who are in the channels.

1394
01:37:59,121 --> 01:38:17,121
So even though that's the case, it's just kind of a quirk of the lightning network specifically, that it has lots of people who are each have a global, global in quotes, state just between two people, but lots and lots of overlapping ones.

1395
01:38:18,121 --> 01:38:26,121
Yeah, I mean, one lightning doesn't have a global state, but it also like it can't have any sort of like expressivity to it. Right.

1396
01:38:27,121 --> 01:38:45,121
And I think that's, that's one of the keys that that like a potential ZK roll up like enables because you could you could operate in this L2 and you could have, you know, any sort of execution environment you want. So like any sort of programming language, you could have, you know, EVM, you could have, you know, rust or Cairo or clarity or like, like, whatever.

1397
01:38:46,121 --> 01:39:10,121
And because you can essentially compress or shrink down like, like all of the execution that's happened on there into a singular ZK proof, that that's how you can have this full level of like expressivity in L2. So I agree with Eric that it's not really a roll up because it doesn't have L2 or it doesn't have a global state, but it also just it has no semblance of like expressivity. It can just do payments.

1398
01:39:10,121 --> 01:39:24,121
So now we could have, you know, fully end to end encrypted transactions, we could have Bitcoin back borrowing, you know, we could have, you know, any sort of like truly fully programmable feature like we can have on the roll up. And that's like a major win.

1399
01:39:29,121 --> 01:39:30,121
Okay, now we have a bit.

1400
01:39:32,121 --> 01:39:33,121
Oh, we have bit code is here. Hello.

1401
01:39:35,121 --> 01:39:36,121
Hi, guys. Hi, Paul.

1402
01:39:37,121 --> 01:39:38,121
You have a new picture.

1403
01:39:38,121 --> 01:39:39,121
Yeah, yeah.

1404
01:39:40,121 --> 01:39:41,121
It's a good one.

1405
01:39:42,121 --> 01:40:04,121
Yeah, something like some, some videos with the kind of animated avatar. And it's all about Bitcoin and making some, some clear, clearing up the, you know, the, the confusion and misunderstanding of Bitcoin.

1406
01:40:05,121 --> 01:40:32,121
So I wanted to push back on all this with with Zeke Rollups, because, you know, like the many people do not understand Bitcoin, they don't do not understand that Bitcoin has the smart contracts, has the ability to to have swaps atomic swaps, lending, borrowing, betting, whatever.

1407
01:40:33,121 --> 01:40:35,121
And, you know, Paul, that that's that's the reality.

1408
01:40:36,121 --> 01:40:50,121
So we don't need Zeke Rollups, because if the Zeke Rollups would be helpful, or they could solve something.

1409
01:40:51,121 --> 01:40:57,121
The Satoshi and how Finney will will already implemented those things.

1410
01:40:58,121 --> 01:41:05,121
And you know that because how Finney is talking was talking 20, 30 years ago about about Zeke Rollups.

1411
01:41:06,121 --> 01:41:25,121
So the thing the thing is that everybody talking about something, but they forget to implement the peer to peer environment and decentralization where those where those Zeke Rollups or those records will be held.

1412
01:41:26,121 --> 01:41:29,121
Who will host those records?

1413
01:41:30,121 --> 01:41:37,121
A server room, server data center, who has no decentralization is no peer to peer.

1414
01:41:38,121 --> 01:41:39,121
That's why we'll fail.

1415
01:41:39,121 --> 01:41:43,121
Well, this is the availability problem question, I think.

1416
01:41:43,121 --> 01:41:47,121
Yeah, but the best solution, the best solution is drivechain.

1417
01:41:47,121 --> 01:41:48,121
That's it.

1418
01:41:48,121 --> 01:41:49,121
Yeah, I know.

1419
01:41:49,121 --> 01:41:50,121
You know it, but you know.

1420
01:41:51,121 --> 01:42:06,121
Really quick, like on Bitcoin platform, people like, you know, Satoshi and Greg Maxwell and Elie Ben Sasson, like, it's very clear where they're talking about using, you know, zero knowledge proofs as like the ultimate, ultimate, truly endgame compression technique to be able to scale Bitcoin.

1421
01:42:06,121 --> 01:42:14,121
So you say like they would have implemented, but the technology hadn't yet evolved enough to where it was ready and roll ups themselves hadn't been invented.

1422
01:42:14,121 --> 01:42:22,121
And so in those conversations, you see people like Elie Ben Sasson, who ended up going on to being one of the co-founders of Zcash and then Starkware, which is now like one of the top roll ups.

1423
01:42:22,121 --> 01:42:32,121
Like, he essentially took those conversations from like scaling Bitcoin in 2013 and conversations with Maxwell and Satoshi even before that and kind of created roll ups.

1424
01:42:32,121 --> 01:42:37,121
So, like, I just fundamentally reject your claim that it's like, oh, like we would have done it, Satoshi would have already figured it out.

1425
01:42:37,121 --> 01:42:43,121
It's like, it's like, no, the technology wasn't there, but they did acknowledge, like, if it was ready, we would love to implement it.

1426
01:42:44,121 --> 01:42:50,121
I think I can tell you, Paul is scaling Bitcoin since 2014.

1427
01:42:51,121 --> 01:43:00,121
I think in the coin witness post that Greg Maxwell made, it wasn't totally clear to me.

1428
01:43:00,121 --> 01:43:01,121
Maybe it was to you, though.

1429
01:43:01,121 --> 01:43:14,121
But I think he was, I think he was saying something like, if we had magic ZK snark moon math, as it was called at the time, you could shrink the block size.

1430
01:43:14,121 --> 01:43:17,121
I mean, excuse me, you can shrink the blockchain.

1431
01:43:17,121 --> 01:43:18,121
Sorry, I said the wrong thing.

1432
01:43:18,121 --> 01:43:20,121
Too much block size, you know.

1433
01:43:20,121 --> 01:43:27,121
So he's saying you can shrink all of the stuff and have a proof that is very small that the blockchain is right.

1434
01:43:27,121 --> 01:43:37,121
But no matter what you do, you will always need to have someone serve the historical blockchain data so that the proof itself can be reconstructed.

1435
01:43:37,121 --> 01:43:47,121
And so no matter what you do, everyone is on the hook for storing and serving all the data in the blockchain forever.

1436
01:43:47,121 --> 01:43:53,121
And so for that reason, I always interpreted and maybe you interpret it a different way and maybe your way is right.

1437
01:43:53,121 --> 01:44:01,121
I don't know. But I read the coin witness thing as being like not a scalability solution kind of at all.

1438
01:44:01,121 --> 01:44:10,121
And what it really is, is it just something that makes SPV mode slightly more secure and SPV mode is already like 99 percent secure.

1439
01:44:11,121 --> 01:44:23,121
So the last one percent is not even that important because how often has it been the case that someone has synced an SPV node and then they've been shown like the wrong chain?

1440
01:44:23,121 --> 01:44:36,121
Like that has like never happened in the history of Bitcoin except for like maybe one time when there was a lot of weird coincidental stuff that was all accidental and related to like bugs and stuff in like 2015 and has never happened since.

1441
01:44:36,121 --> 01:44:49,121
Yeah. So touch on a couple different points there. One, there's a thread that John Adler is like a current, I mean, maybe like one of the smartest guys in the world space that he wrote where he kind of expanded on Greg Maxwell's 2013 coin witness post.

1442
01:44:49,121 --> 01:44:56,121
And he talked about how, you know, that original idea of coin witness and ZKPs has kind of evolved into the world space.

1443
01:44:56,121 --> 01:45:04,121
So there's kind of an additional evolution from from the coin witness. So you can find John Adler's post where he discusses that.

1444
01:45:05,121 --> 01:45:18,121
The next point you mentioned was about like data availability and like fundamentally you are correct that that a limitation of rollups and ZKPs is like if you don't have the data in order to compute the ZKP, then everything essentially freezes up.

1445
01:45:18,121 --> 01:45:22,121
The way to get around that is, of course, you post the data on the L1.

1446
01:45:22,121 --> 01:45:29,121
But the limitation there is that, you know, we run out of essentially block space and Bitcoin can never scale to like hold that much data.

1447
01:45:30,121 --> 01:45:40,121
This is the nuance where I think the rollup conversation gets difficult. Like rollups are not one singular thing where it's like you have to post data onto the L1 or you have to post it off chain.

1448
01:45:40,121 --> 01:45:54,121
It's kind of this umbrella that can say, hey, the optionality for each type of user is there where if somebody is like, I want to definitively make sure that the data is available, I'm willing to pay a higher fee, then they can post their data directly on the L1.

1449
01:45:54,121 --> 01:46:00,121
If somebody else is saying, well, I don't really mind. I can trust this federation. I can post the data there.

1450
01:46:00,121 --> 01:46:06,121
Somebody else is like, well, I really love what Celestia and these off chain data solutions that were kind of spun out of Ethereum are doing.

1451
01:46:06,121 --> 01:46:17,121
I'm fine posting my data there. Or somebody could even say, hey, I want to take personal sovereignty and I want to store my data locally on my own computer kind of science side.

1452
01:46:17,121 --> 01:46:33,121
So when people say, and I think this is what Eric was trying to get at, is that we don't have proper definitions for rollup because people are like combining or they're kind of complaining like all these different terms where it's like a rollup is technically where you post it directly on L1.

1453
01:46:33,121 --> 01:46:53,121
But then this other term called like a Validium is a rollup, but you're not posting the data on L1. You're posting on one of these off chain data solutions. Ultimately, and I'll just recap with this and then end, you could have this ecosystem where all of these different options, data availability options can cross compose and share liquidity with each other.

1454
01:46:53,121 --> 01:47:14,121
So Paul, if you want to be directly on the L1 posting your data to make sure that you can always compute the proof and you can always withdraw, you can do that. I can store mine locally and then Bitcode or whatever can store his on these off chain data solutions. We can all cross compose it with each other despite the different security assumption. And that's a giant umbrella of I think what everybody's excited about.

1455
01:47:15,121 --> 01:47:37,121
Yeah, I agree that everyone should be excited about that. And that sounds like it's very likely to happen. And there will be these competing L2s and things. I really worry that this rollup word is just not, it's not, it's just confusing everyone. And maybe we should find new words. I don't know. Anyway, now we have Alex K joined and then Bitcode and John have their hands up. So I don't really know. I guess we should go back to Bitcode since he was talking before.

1456
01:47:37,121 --> 01:48:06,121
Yeah, I want to clear up something. Bitcoin can absorb 10 times, even 100 times more data than the world has today. And this is, I'm not 100% million percent sure. Why? Because Bitcoin can absorb gigabytes of data. It doesn't mean that you cannot put data. You need to know how to do it.

1457
01:48:07,121 --> 01:48:28,121
And I agree with you. I'm for solutions. Somebody don't want to use. Yeah, they can find different solutions. But, you know, the thing is that everybody is pushing in and saying, oh, we need to go off chain. Why? Why I want to go off chain when I have the best security ever produced in the world on Bitcoin blockchain?

1458
01:48:28,121 --> 01:48:46,121
Well, it's just the price. I mean, obviously, everybody would want to be on Bitcoin. Yeah, but for that, Bitcoin is much cheaper than anything else. Because off chain, I need to pay all the time. On Bitcoin, I pay once. That's it forever. For the eternity.

1459
01:48:48,121 --> 01:48:51,121
Okay, John has a hand and then we'll go to Alex K.

1460
01:48:51,121 --> 01:49:12,121
So I post the Citroën block production and pegging schematics. So on the white paper, they say that there's a sequencer. So that's the bridge, right?

1461
01:49:13,121 --> 01:49:38,121
And let me read here. A sequencer, unlike a validator or a miner, doesn't need to validate the validations over production blocks from other sequencers or nodes because every block produced by sequencers undergoing improving, which acts as a natural and trustless validation mechanism over blocks.

1462
01:49:39,121 --> 01:49:57,121
So the thing is, they say, and the beginning of the pegout, I don't understand all the schematics, but he says that at least just like on BTVM, at least if one verifier is honest, everyone is, the peg is protected, right?

1463
01:49:57,121 --> 01:50:18,121
Unlike a multisig, for example, that you make a multisig of three or five, if three people wants to rug the two, they can. And on the system, everyone has to want to rug. So the incentive is to not rug everyone.

1464
01:50:19,121 --> 01:50:43,121
The question here is what the frequency that it's being written on the blockchain of the Bitcoin, because if it's 10 on 10 minutes, it would be, I don't know, a lot of data and the fees will go up on the layer one too.

1465
01:50:44,121 --> 01:50:53,121
I didn't totally understand that a hundred percent. What are you exactly asking about? Who's paying for the roll up fees?

1466
01:50:53,121 --> 01:51:22,121
Yeah, I understand that's just like BTVM works, but I don't know. The thing is, my question is, doesn't this work just like the JPEGs, the originals that you have to make a transaction and the fees go up on the layer one?

1467
01:51:23,121 --> 01:51:32,121
So the fees have to go to layer two too. So, you know, on the Citrea blockchain or Citrea roll ups.

1468
01:51:32,121 --> 01:51:50,121
I think you're asking that, isn't there something that will charge a fee on L2 and will that subtract from what is paid to the L1 miners? Is that what you're saying?

1469
01:51:50,121 --> 01:52:12,121
Yeah, my question is, because we need to, this is for scaling, right? And a lot of things. But what you gain from us, layer two, is to have lower fees and more speed on the transaction.

1470
01:52:12,121 --> 01:52:25,121
So if everyone needs to inscribe on Bitcoin the transaction, you have to pay the fees.

1471
01:52:26,121 --> 01:52:42,121
Oh, that's a good point. Yes. Well, let me try to clarify. This is what when Orkin talks about state diffs. So, you know, you're not technically inscribing or posting every single transaction onto the Bitcoin L1.

1472
01:52:42,121 --> 01:53:00,121
You're essentially just inscribing what's called the state difference, which is like the netting out of all the transactions. Like if Paul and I sent, you know, 100 transactions back and forth to each other, but then the net change was only, you know, one Bitcoin, that's the transaction that gets submitted to the Bitcoin L1.

1473
01:53:00,121 --> 01:53:20,121
So then the question becomes, well, okay, if the miners and the nodes receive this data and they say, well, Paul should be getting, you know, one Bitcoin. It's like, how can you prove that all of the state transitions were valid? All of the 100 transactions that we did off chain were valid. And this is where the ZKP comes in.

1474
01:53:20,121 --> 01:53:49,121
So there's two things here. The state diffs allow you to get a modest compression on the data that you're submitting to L1 as opposed to every single actual transaction. And then the ZKP is what allows you to prove that the state diff was actually fully into consensus. So there's two different things going on there. State diff compresses the data you have to post. And the ZKP, you know, tells the nodes you don't have to go through and validate these transactions. You just have to verify that this ZKP is correct.

1475
01:53:50,121 --> 01:54:16,121
And this is why in a pure, like, ZK rollup model, you know, some of these white papers, people like John Light's research say, well, you can get anywhere from, call it like a 20 to 50x, you know, scaling improvement. It's from these state diffs, like this ability to kind of compress down the data that you have to post onto L1.

1476
01:54:16,121 --> 01:54:34,121
Now, if you want to get far, far, far more scalability improvements than that, then you would be posting the data or the state diffs to an off-chain data solution. But then you're taking on, obviously, more trust and more risk that these off-chain data.

1477
01:54:37,118 --> 01:54:42,118
These data providers, that they would essentially censor you or block you and prevent you from being able to create the proof.

1478
01:54:42,118 --> 01:54:44,118
But hopefully that makes sense.

1479
01:54:49,118 --> 01:54:56,118
Yeah, but that's that's the same concept like drivechain. Drivechain already has that and is a native Bitcoin extension.

1480
01:54:57,118 --> 01:55:04,118
For me, drivechain is not off-chain, to be clear, because it uses the same infrastructure from Bitcoin.

1481
01:55:04,118 --> 01:55:18,118
The nodes and there is no mining like on Bitcoin, but and the same principle applies to the drivechain, to the sidechains data that is confirmed on L1.

1482
01:55:19,118 --> 01:55:21,118
That's what you explained, David.

1483
01:55:21,118 --> 01:55:27,118
What do you think? People will use, like in the future, what do you think?

1484
01:55:27,118 --> 01:55:42,118
People will like to have something that is more peer-to-peer decentralized or people will use some custodial data providers and companies that will censor you or block you?

1485
01:55:43,118 --> 01:55:46,118
I mean, that's happening all the time since the beginning.

1486
01:55:51,118 --> 01:55:56,118
Yeah, I mean, I just think, hey, I'm a fan of drivechain, sure, like do it, like I would love it.

1487
01:55:56,118 --> 01:56:00,118
But, you know, I just don't know if there's enough momentum there.

1488
01:56:00,118 --> 01:56:05,118
And like there is something to be said about having something like novel and new and shiny.

1489
01:56:05,118 --> 01:56:17,118
And I do think I just think there's so many solutions that are being built around this kind of like we'll call it the quote unquote roll up space or the Validium space or ZK proofs like that.

1490
01:56:17,118 --> 01:56:21,118
I think it does have advantages that drivechains don't necessarily.

1491
01:56:21,118 --> 01:56:29,118
And like one of them is that ability to like share liquidity and have like trustless cross-chain composability amongst rollups.

1492
01:56:29,118 --> 01:56:31,118
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

1493
01:56:32,118 --> 01:56:35,118
There is for sure. I can tell you and I can prove you.

1494
01:56:35,118 --> 01:56:42,118
And also I can I can use I can use a different blockchain to just utilize the sequencers indexers.

1495
01:56:42,118 --> 01:56:46,118
And it's very quick, very fast, very, very stable.

1496
01:56:46,118 --> 01:56:50,118
The settlement layer is instant.

1497
01:56:50,118 --> 01:56:53,118
You know, the fee that you pay per transaction is fixed.

1498
01:56:54,118 --> 01:57:10,118
One dollar, you know, like I can implement so many things like I'm saying I like because I I know what I'm talking like, you know, it's like the we need to understand one thing.

1499
01:57:10,118 --> 01:57:22,118
And if we if we like idea, I don't know if anybody, everybody here likes the idea of peer to peer and decentralization like or decentralized systems.

1500
01:57:22,118 --> 01:57:25,118
You know, if anybody disagree with that, fine.

1501
01:57:25,118 --> 01:57:38,118
But if we are on the same page, we need to we need to focus on on the on the big thing on drivechain and and help drivechain to be, you know, and then you can you can upgrade on drivechain so many things.

1502
01:57:38,118 --> 01:57:46,118
So there is a I mean, you can put Bitcoin in a picture in a digital form.

1503
01:57:46,118 --> 01:57:50,118
You can put in a emoji. You can put anywhere, you know.

1504
01:57:50,118 --> 01:57:59,118
So and we are talking here. Oh, you can always have you have the opportunity to have a crushing whatever.

1505
01:58:00,118 --> 01:58:04,118
No, Bitcoin can be can be teleported.

1506
01:58:04,118 --> 01:58:10,118
If you want to like Bitcoin is like.

1507
01:58:10,118 --> 01:58:19,118
How to say like on Bitcoin, everything is possible. Just you need to know how to do it.

1508
01:58:19,118 --> 01:58:24,118
Yeah, I think Jim ever lost Alex K.

1509
01:58:24,118 --> 01:58:36,118
I would like to hear if he was had an update on the apocalypse.

1510
01:58:36,118 --> 01:58:41,118
I mean, I think that's a great, interesting theory, but it's not happening yet.

1511
01:58:41,118 --> 01:58:46,118
But any day now, I talk to you a couple of days ago.

1512
01:58:46,118 --> 01:58:49,118
Oh, great. You have any thoughts on it? Great.

1513
01:58:49,118 --> 01:58:53,118
I mean, I actually very much align with his like apocalypse assessment.

1514
01:58:53,118 --> 01:58:56,118
And there's like probably two major reasons.

1515
01:58:56,118 --> 01:59:08,118
Like one, I think the idea that he would mention is like recursive covenants or sorry, not recursive covenants, recursive inscriptions, where instead of just being like, oh, hey, we can fit this image and like a four megabyte block.

1516
01:59:08,118 --> 01:59:14,118
It's like you could essentially try to upload like an entire website, like the entire, you know, WikiLeaks or something.

1517
01:59:14,118 --> 01:59:19,118
And that could be, you know, huge sums of data that could span across many different blocks.

1518
01:59:19,118 --> 01:59:29,118
And so you can kind of recursively like link these inscriptions together across blocks, which could just be like massive backload of data constantly wanting to be into the blockchain.

1519
01:59:29,118 --> 01:59:33,118
And they're kind of willing to pay like a minimum fee, which would raise the fee environment.

1520
01:59:33,118 --> 01:59:53,118
The one that I think is more compelling is like, whether you agree with rollups or not, like there are several teams, including Citria and Orkin, who are building rollups who, you know, are going to attempt to create these zero knowledge proofs and post them onto the L1 along with the state diffs from these L2s.

1521
01:59:53,118 --> 01:59:56,118
And there's several other teams that are trying to do that.

1522
01:59:56,118 --> 02:00:00,118
And they are like forced to do that.

1523
02:00:00,118 --> 02:00:02,118
Basically, every single block.

1524
02:00:02,118 --> 02:00:09,118
And because they're earning transaction fees on the L2, they actually have the money to be able to pay the fees.

1525
02:00:09,118 --> 02:00:17,118
So they're a much more, you know, like inelastic buyer of the block space.

1526
02:00:17,118 --> 02:00:24,118
And I think when those things start to happen, I do think fee block lifts is going to start happening.

1527
02:00:24,118 --> 02:00:36,118
And I even posted on this like on Twitter where I was like, if your L2 scaling solution like doesn't work in an IP environment, like you need to reconsider it because I do think it's coming.

1528
02:00:36,118 --> 02:00:38,118
Yeah, no, it's a very good thought.

1529
02:00:38,118 --> 02:00:42,118
I hope that he's right because part of his theory is that.

1530
02:00:42,118 --> 02:00:44,118
Well, it looks great for me if he's right.

1531
02:00:44,118 --> 02:00:56,118
So I do one thing I want to emphasize because everyone it's like the elephant in the room and people don't talk about it is it's this phrase he used about the L2 doesn't work in a high fee environment.

1532
02:00:56,118 --> 02:00:58,118
Just forget about the L2.

1533
02:00:58,118 --> 02:01:00,118
Just forget about it.

1534
02:01:00,118 --> 02:01:04,118
Just like you orange pill someone and you say, OK, I'll send them.

1535
02:01:04,118 --> 02:01:07,118
I'll send them $20 worth of Bitcoin.

1536
02:01:07,118 --> 02:01:09,118
You send them $20 worth of Bitcoin.

1537
02:01:09,118 --> 02:01:11,118
You lose $5 to the fee.

1538
02:01:11,118 --> 02:01:17,118
They get $15 and like, OK, then they like to try to send it.

1539
02:01:17,118 --> 02:01:19,118
Now it's $10.

1540
02:01:19,118 --> 02:01:21,118
And they're just going to be like, what?

1541
02:01:21,118 --> 02:01:25,118
Like regular people are just like, what the heck?

1542
02:01:25,118 --> 02:01:26,118
What is it?

1543
02:01:26,118 --> 02:01:28,118
And then they're like Venmo is free.

1544
02:01:28,118 --> 02:01:31,118
And it's just like embarrassing.

1545
02:01:31,118 --> 02:01:43,118
I just say I would almost restate it as if there is not something out there that is not near Venmo levels of free.

1546
02:01:43,118 --> 02:01:48,118
And if you don't have that, then the whole thing is dead.

1547
02:01:48,118 --> 02:01:53,118
It's just not going to get the network effect.

1548
02:01:53,118 --> 02:01:56,118
All right, here we go.

1549
02:01:56,118 --> 02:02:00,118
Let's see if this works.

1550
02:02:00,118 --> 02:02:02,118
OK, we have a new person.

1551
02:02:02,118 --> 02:02:03,118
Hello.

1552
02:02:03,118 --> 02:02:06,118
Welcome.

1553
02:02:06,118 --> 02:02:19,118
Mad Philly is here.

1554
02:02:19,118 --> 02:02:20,118
Yes.

1555
02:02:20,118 --> 02:02:25,118
Hello.

1556
02:02:25,118 --> 02:02:27,118
I'm not listening to him.

1557
02:02:27,118 --> 02:02:29,118
Can't hear him right now.

1558
02:02:29,118 --> 02:02:31,118
Come up with Vlad.

1559
02:02:31,118 --> 02:02:36,118
Vlad made a video with him.

1560
02:02:36,118 --> 02:02:38,118
And he may explain better.

1561
02:02:38,118 --> 02:02:42,118
The thing is, the audio is Turkish.

1562
02:02:42,118 --> 02:02:47,118
I can't understand.

1563
02:02:47,118 --> 02:02:50,118
So, yeah.

1564
02:02:50,118 --> 02:02:52,118
Space is, you know, is cursed.

1565
02:02:52,118 --> 02:02:55,118
What can we say?

1566
02:02:56,118 --> 02:02:58,118
But I invited Vlad.

1567
02:02:58,118 --> 02:03:01,118
I will invite people.

1568
02:03:01,118 --> 02:03:05,118
It may just be, honestly, guys, you know, it may be a cursed space.

1569
02:03:05,118 --> 02:03:10,118
And we may want to just end it because.

1570
02:03:10,118 --> 02:03:15,118
But let's see if we have any other last-minute thoughts.

1571
02:03:15,118 --> 02:03:19,118
Anyone has any roll-up thoughts?

1572
02:03:19,118 --> 02:03:22,118
Yeah, let a thousand flowers bloom.

1573
02:03:22,118 --> 02:03:28,118
I think it is the case that most people do not want to make any weird decisions.

1574
02:03:28,118 --> 02:03:30,118
They want to ultimately trust the software.

1575
02:03:30,118 --> 02:03:35,118
So most people will be using a, whatever gives them the best user experience.

1576
02:03:35,118 --> 02:03:40,118
And that will be a large block sidechain.

1577
02:03:40,118 --> 02:03:55,118
It will just be, and then they'll use it in SPV.

1578
02:03:55,118 --> 02:04:00,118
And there we have all the flowers here.

1579
02:04:00,118 --> 02:04:01,118
Maybe.

1580
02:04:01,118 --> 02:04:02,118
I mean, the space works.

1581
02:04:02,118 --> 02:04:03,118
What's going on?

1582
02:04:03,118 --> 02:04:04,118
Can you hear me?

1583
02:04:04,118 --> 02:04:05,118
Hey, yes, hello.

1584
02:04:05,118 --> 02:04:07,118
Long time, long time.

1585
02:04:07,118 --> 02:04:19,118
So last time we were talking about why not to do drivechains as a space chain.

1586
02:04:19,118 --> 02:04:25,118
And I was curious if we could, like, go back to that.

1587
02:04:25,118 --> 02:04:29,118
And maybe we could wrap in the roll-ups.

1588
02:04:29,118 --> 02:04:35,118
The space chain is just a drivechain that you cannot withdraw from, basically.

1589
02:04:35,118 --> 02:04:43,118
Because I remember your passion behind drivechains is you've got this, I forget, what type of market?

1590
02:04:43,118 --> 02:04:46,118
Yeah, prediction market.

1591
02:04:46,118 --> 02:04:50,118
Yeah, so why couldn't you do it on the space chain?

1592
02:04:50,118 --> 02:04:52,118
That's a very good question.

1593
02:04:52,118 --> 02:04:58,118
The prediction market is a concept where you are betting money on outcomes.

1594
02:04:59,118 --> 02:05:05,118
And so if someone loses the bet to someone else, they're supposed to be losing, like, Bitcoin or whatever to them.

1595
02:05:05,118 --> 02:05:12,118
They lose the money, and then that person is supposed to be able to withdraw the money and have Bitcoin.

1596
02:05:12,118 --> 02:05:16,118
So the lack of withdrawals is a problem for prediction markets.

1597
02:05:16,118 --> 02:05:28,118
But couldn't you basically do – you could do it as a space chain and then basically have, like, Bitcoin custodian in that space chain?

1598
02:05:31,118 --> 02:05:42,118
You could because – well, it would be like – it's like if there's a one-way street, you go to a casino, and you can only swap money for the casino tokens, and no one can ever redeem the casino tokens.

1599
02:05:42,118 --> 02:05:45,118
I get that part.

1600
02:05:45,118 --> 02:05:49,118
And so you're saying, like, why don't you just have, like, why don't you have some guy promise to do it?

1601
02:05:49,118 --> 02:05:51,118
But why is that guy doing it?

1602
02:05:51,118 --> 02:05:53,118
That guy's just giving up real money in exchange.

1603
02:05:53,118 --> 02:05:54,118
He's just destroying it.

1604
02:05:54,118 --> 02:06:02,118
Yeah, but technically, technically, you could probably do something where you have it pinned to a certain amount of Bitcoin.

1605
02:06:02,118 --> 02:06:08,118
And then you could pull out that Bitcoin if specifically you have that Bitcoin on a multi-sig.

1606
02:06:08,118 --> 02:06:11,118
So, yeah.

1607
02:06:12,118 --> 02:06:27,118
Yeah, you're saying something kind of like there will be a different guy in the casino who the bets and the winnings and losses will be in the casino chip world, and then there'll be something like USDT where someone will back it.

1608
02:06:27,118 --> 02:06:32,118
But you see, this is just like – all this stuff is just like deleting all this stuff in Bitcoin that makes it cool.

1609
02:06:33,118 --> 02:06:35,118
There is no issue with Drivechain.

1610
02:06:35,118 --> 02:06:42,118
People's complaints about it is really just revealing, like, how poorly they understand it.

1611
02:06:42,118 --> 02:06:50,118
And it's just – all this is just a mental illness that it's going to go away very soon because the software we have is almost done.

1612
02:06:50,118 --> 02:06:53,118
It is sort of user-friendly.

1613
02:06:54,118 --> 02:06:58,118
It will be – it's possible to deploy it to Bitcoin without any change to Bitcoin Core.

1614
02:06:58,118 --> 02:07:06,118
So, it's just inevitably going to either happen here or on many altcoins, which will increase the competition.

1615
02:07:06,118 --> 02:07:12,118
So, there's no, like – it just is the best idea, and these other ideas are just not as good.

1616
02:07:12,118 --> 02:07:14,118
It has nothing to do with my ego in the slightest.

1617
02:07:14,118 --> 02:07:15,118
It's rather the reverse.

1618
02:07:15,118 --> 02:07:18,118
It's all these other people are like, hey, what about this idea or that idea?

1619
02:07:18,118 --> 02:07:20,118
Those ideas just aren't very good.

1620
02:07:21,118 --> 02:07:24,118
So, that's why I kind of, like, don't want to change it to something else.

1621
02:07:26,118 --> 02:07:28,118
That's definitely true.

1622
02:07:32,118 --> 02:07:34,118
We have Vlad here now.

1623
02:07:34,118 --> 02:07:35,118
Hey, Vlad.

1624
02:07:35,118 --> 02:07:36,118
What's up?

1625
02:07:37,118 --> 02:07:38,118
Hi, guys.

1626
02:07:38,118 --> 02:07:40,118
Thank you for inviting me to speak.

1627
02:07:40,118 --> 02:07:45,118
You basically pushed my limits when it comes to privacy settings on my phone.

1628
02:07:45,118 --> 02:07:52,118
I figured that, oh, I should enable microphone access, and I had to leave the app and do this once again.

1629
02:07:52,118 --> 02:07:58,118
I missed the first part of the conversation, the one with SupertestNet, and I feel guilty right now.

1630
02:07:58,118 --> 02:08:04,118
I have to catch up with that because I said to myself that this is basically Christmas Day for me.

1631
02:08:04,118 --> 02:08:11,118
I get to listen to that happening, these guys talking about what a zero-knowledge roll-up should be like.

1632
02:08:12,118 --> 02:08:19,118
And I'm the first podcaster who got Orkun, who introduced him to the Bitcoin audience.

1633
02:08:19,118 --> 02:08:30,118
So, if he turns out to be a liar or a scammer of sorts, then I'm morally guilty of introducing him and enabling him to promote that.

1634
02:08:30,118 --> 02:08:33,118
So, I'm super interested to see the outcome.

1635
02:08:33,118 --> 02:08:34,118
SupertestNet said that he liked him.

1636
02:08:34,118 --> 02:08:35,118
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1637
02:08:35,118 --> 02:08:39,118
They apologized and made up in their own way.

1638
02:08:42,118 --> 02:08:43,118
Okay, that's interesting.

1639
02:08:45,118 --> 02:08:51,118
But we all learned a lot about how a roll-up means that there's no compression and everything's on L1.

1640
02:08:51,118 --> 02:08:53,118
And so, does the word mean anything?

1641
02:08:53,118 --> 02:08:56,118
No one knows, but we'll figure it out one day.

1642
02:08:56,118 --> 02:08:57,118
Yeah.

1643
02:08:57,118 --> 02:08:58,118
David is having a heart attack now.

1644
02:08:58,118 --> 02:08:59,118
It still sounds like jargon.

1645
02:08:59,118 --> 02:09:00,118
It still sounds like jargon.

1646
02:09:01,118 --> 02:09:08,118
The way that I understand it, at least in the Bitcoin context, is that you batch transactions.

1647
02:09:08,118 --> 02:09:15,118
And you put, instead of having all the transaction data, which takes a lot of block space, you create a zero-knowledge proof of that.

1648
02:09:15,118 --> 02:09:19,118
And you inscribe that as an original inscription.

1649
02:09:19,118 --> 02:09:22,118
And you're going to use that to verify that it existed.

1650
02:09:22,118 --> 02:09:24,118
So, that's the way in which I perceive it.

1651
02:09:25,118 --> 02:09:28,118
On Ethereum, it means Layer 2.

1652
02:09:28,118 --> 02:09:31,118
You know, the idea of a ZK roll-up.

1653
02:09:31,118 --> 02:09:34,118
On Bitcoin, it very much uses block space.

1654
02:09:39,118 --> 02:09:40,118
Yeah.

1655
02:09:42,118 --> 02:09:45,118
I'm still not getting it, basically.

1656
02:09:47,118 --> 02:09:52,118
We had a question about, doesn't the inscription cost money and, therefore, isn't it just inefficient?

1657
02:09:53,118 --> 02:09:54,118
I don't get that at all.

1658
02:09:54,118 --> 02:09:57,118
How is this different from Lightning?

1659
02:09:57,118 --> 02:10:03,118
What makes Lightning not a roll-up, under those circumstances and those definitions?

1660
02:10:05,118 --> 02:10:11,118
Just like I said, on Lightning, you have a multisig of two.

1661
02:10:11,118 --> 02:10:14,118
So, you have two channels.

1662
02:10:14,118 --> 02:10:20,118
And on Citraya, you don't have two parties.

1663
02:10:20,118 --> 02:10:22,118
You have everyone that can verify.

1664
02:10:22,118 --> 02:10:32,118
And if at least one person is following the rules, everything is up.

1665
02:10:32,118 --> 02:10:34,118
Just like a multisig.

1666
02:10:34,118 --> 02:10:35,118
Yeah, but where...

1667
02:10:35,118 --> 02:10:37,118
A multisig of five or three.

1668
02:10:37,118 --> 02:10:42,118
So, three persons can still have two.

1669
02:10:42,118 --> 02:10:46,118
So, it's a different form of multisig.

1670
02:10:46,118 --> 02:10:47,118
That's what you're saying.

1671
02:10:51,118 --> 02:10:54,118
Yeah, no.

1672
02:10:54,118 --> 02:11:03,118
But, yes, it's just like a multisig that everyone has to be on consensus.

1673
02:11:03,118 --> 02:11:04,118
Okay.

1674
02:11:04,118 --> 02:11:09,118
So, what makes that multisig different from a sidechain?

1675
02:11:10,118 --> 02:11:13,118
It's very similar to a sidechain.

1676
02:11:13,118 --> 02:11:21,118
But the thing that the zero-knowledge proof is inscribed on the Bitcoin blockchain.

1677
02:11:21,118 --> 02:11:24,118
The difference is that, I think.

1678
02:11:24,118 --> 02:11:27,118
And that's the thing that we said before.

1679
02:11:27,118 --> 02:11:31,118
If it's inscribed on Bitcoin, the fees will go up.

1680
02:11:32,118 --> 02:11:34,118
And that's the thing that we said before.

1681
02:11:34,118 --> 02:11:38,118
If it's inscribed on Bitcoin, the fees will go up.

1682
02:11:38,118 --> 02:11:42,118
And then, it's not the best solution.

1683
02:11:42,118 --> 02:11:52,118
But it's a better solution than describing, I think, I don't know, JPEGs.

1684
02:11:52,118 --> 02:11:58,118
So, the difference between a roll-up and a sidechain, which I think is what you're asking,

1685
02:11:58,118 --> 02:12:09,118
is that a roll-up, if you also have a zero-knowledge proof, is able to prove the validity of the transition to a certain change in balance.

1686
02:12:09,118 --> 02:12:14,118
Like, if somebody bridges on to a sidechain and all these balances change.

1687
02:12:14,118 --> 02:12:20,118
And now you say, well, David used to have 10 Bitcoin, but now he actually only has 5.

1688
02:12:20,118 --> 02:12:24,118
How do you relay that information back to the Bitcoin L1?

1689
02:12:24,118 --> 02:12:29,118
Bitcoin L1 cannot understand any information from the outside world.

1690
02:12:29,118 --> 02:12:40,118
So, you would essentially have to trust some sort of federation or a hashrate escrow like the miners to relay that information to say, David now has 5 Bitcoin.

1691
02:12:40,118 --> 02:12:54,118
But with a zero-knowledge roll-up or a ZKP, you can mathematically prove, you can provide a digital unforgeable receipt to the L1 that says, look, David now has 5 Bitcoin.

1692
02:12:54,118 --> 02:12:58,118
It doesn't matter what he did in this sidechain to be able to get to 5 Bitcoin.

1693
02:12:58,118 --> 02:13:06,118
It doesn't matter if he sent it to Craig Wright or if he put it into a DeFi contract or if he earned it or he staked it, whatever.

1694
02:13:06,118 --> 02:13:12,118
Here is just a digital unforgeable receipt that says he now has 5 Bitcoin.

1695
02:13:12,118 --> 02:13:14,118
It doesn't matter how he did that on the L2.

1696
02:13:14,118 --> 02:13:25,118
And so, from Bitcoin's perspective, it says, look, just prove to me that you followed my rules, that no more than 21 million Bitcoins were created, that there were no double spends, that you followed the rules of the consensus.

1697
02:13:25,118 --> 02:13:32,118
If you can prove that to me, then I'll allow you to update how much Bitcoin balance David now has on the L1.

1698
02:13:32,118 --> 02:13:34,118
That's the fundamental difference.

1699
02:13:34,118 --> 02:13:39,118
It's that communication, like a sidechain essentially has an Oracle problem, like the Bitcoin L1 cannot read a sidechain.

1700
02:13:39,118 --> 02:13:44,118
But with the ZKP, you can prove that communication trustlessly back to Bitcoin.

1701
02:13:44,118 --> 02:13:47,118
OK, so how...

1702
02:13:47,118 --> 02:13:56,118
David, you don't need to have Oracle because drivechain will have the same node infrastructure as Bitcoin.

1703
02:13:56,118 --> 02:14:03,118
But how does that work if you still don't have a trustless pegout?

1704
02:14:03,118 --> 02:14:06,118
What's the value of that if you don't have a trustless pegout?

1705
02:14:06,118 --> 02:14:25,118
Yeah, so the pegout, you're right, like the model that I just described, in a perfect world, we have like an OP Stark or SNARK verifier on the L1 so that the L1 nodes can receive that proof and just very simply verify, hey, this is valid.

1706
02:14:25,118 --> 02:14:29,118
Again, I don't know what the hell happened on L2, but I'm just verifying that this mathematical proof is valid.

1707
02:14:29,118 --> 02:14:34,118
Therefore, I'm allowing you to update David's balance to five Bitcoin.

1708
02:14:34,118 --> 02:14:48,118
But when BitVM got announced and released, all of a sudden people are saying, well, can we use BitVM to verify these zero knowledge proofs on the L1 without any sort of software?

1709
02:14:48,118 --> 02:15:08,118
And that's what's kind of given this renaissance to this whole like ZK roll up on Bitcoin narrative, is that we can essentially emulate the soft fork with BitVM, but with a one of N trust assumption, meaning you need one honest party, as opposed to a federation where you need the majority of the parties to kind of be honest, you only need one.

1710
02:15:08,118 --> 02:15:24,118
So is it a perfect solution where it's fully trustless, where you can trustlessly ensure that if you have a valid ZK proof, you can process your transaction on the L1? No. But is it pretty damn good and improved from something like a traditional sidechain federation? Yes, 100%.

1711
02:15:24,118 --> 02:15:50,118
Okay. And in terms of this in comparison with miners, is this better than trusting the miners? How does that interplay? Because at least from my understanding, drivechain, the whole thing of drivechain was being able to specifically do this.

1712
02:15:50,118 --> 02:16:19,118
Well, I mean, I don't feel confident in my ability to debate drivechains with Paul in the room. But in my opinion, I think it's preferred. I mean, in a very elementary way, like drivechains are essentially, you know, a hash rate escrow, you're escrowing the funds with the majority of the hash rate with the miners, and you're essentially trusting them to facilitate that bridge. I think that's probably still pretty damn safe. And I would love to have drivechains.

1713
02:16:20,118 --> 02:16:49,118
But just like, you know, you hear it straight up, you're like, Oh, wow, like, you can create a party with like, 100 people, instead of the miners managing, like, like, the escrow of funds, you could say, like, there's 100 people, maybe even 1000 people that are, are managing these funds, and you only need one out of those 1000 people to be honest, in order to process the withdrawal. Like, that's pretty compelling. And to make matters better, you potentially yourself could be one of those verifiers, you could be one of the people that is honest.

1714
02:16:49,118 --> 02:17:05,118
So it's like, it's good, you know, and yes, BitVM is clunky, and it requires a ton of, you know, pre signing and, and, you know, you may have this kind of challenge response game that lasts for like three to six months, similar to drivechain, but like, that honestly may just be like, good enough to get us there.

1715
02:17:05,118 --> 02:17:07,118
Okay, okay.

1716
02:17:07,118 --> 02:17:27,118
That's the thing, because it's the same process of pegging in and pegging out of six months of drivechain. It's, it's, well, it's work, right? Or am I wrong? Because if it works, right, it's a compelling argument for activating BIP300.

1717
02:17:27,118 --> 02:17:56,118
Yeah, I think there's a couple different things here. It's one, it's kind of argument that like Paul would make with drivechains, where you have like the atomic swaps, right, where like, for normal users, like, they're just going to like, you know, there's a marketplace for swapping from like, the sidechain or the roll up back to the L1. And like, most people will do that. And then it's only like very specialized people that that will bridge over the BitVM bridge. And if everybody's participating and collaborating, like, I'm pretty sure you don't have to go through this whole three to six month process.

1718
02:17:56,118 --> 02:18:20,118
It's not a three to six month challenge response game. It's only like, like, if somebody is trying to be a total pain in the ass, that, that you would have to like, play this game out. And even if you play that game out, like, like, eventually, the the party trying to steal would would lose and like they would, they would be replaced by somebody else, and they would lose funds that they they put at stake.

1719
02:18:20,118 --> 02:18:42,118
So in all likelihood, the three to six month thing won't play out. But of course, like we have to consider it. Because if you have this roll up, and you're expecting to be able to kind of bridge out via this BitVM bridge, and also in the challenge response game plays out, and it's like, you have three months where, where the bridge is essentially inactive. It's like, did that freeze the roll up? Like, these are kind of getting into the weeds questions.

1720
02:18:42,118 --> 02:19:06,118
But that's like the the major kind of like, impediment with this kind of BitVM roll up right now is, is okay, like people have modeled out like work and have modeled out a way that like, you could have these trustless ZK roll ups on Bitcoin. But what happens if BitVM like three to six month thing has to play out like that freeze the roll up? I probably got into the weeds there. But that's kind of where things are at.

1721
02:19:06,118 --> 02:19:08,118
Can everybody hear me now? Sorry.

1722
02:19:10,118 --> 02:19:11,118
Is that super?

1723
02:19:13,118 --> 02:19:14,118
Sorry, you broke up there? What?

1724
02:19:14,118 --> 02:19:24,118
No, okay. My question for for you was, was this or for the room? How does a BitVM work with something like frost?

1725
02:19:24,118 --> 02:19:34,118
Hmm, I don't know if I'm this one, maybe what is frost?

1726
02:19:36,118 --> 02:19:51,118
Frost basically, it is, it's basically an advanced multisig where essentially, you can have a lot more members of the multisig up to a higher level, like you could get up to like 1000.

1727
02:19:52,118 --> 02:20:13,118
So my, my understanding of BVM is, it essentially is a multisig. But instead of needing the majority of the parties to sign off, you could essentially say, hey, like, you only need one of these parties in the multisig, to be honest, in order to like facilitate the transaction.

1728
02:20:13,118 --> 02:20:38,118
So I'll try to explain BVM. You're essentially, you have a party, like a prover, that we'll call Paul, that's committing to perform some sort of off chain computation. And the way they commit to that is they pre signed a bunch of transactions, and they put a certain amount of money at stake in a pre signed transaction on Bitcoin.

1729
02:20:38,118 --> 02:20:53,118
And then there is a verifier, who is interacting off chain with this prover and saying, Look, you're gonna you're gonna run this software, you're gonna you're gonna do all this programmability for Bitcoin off chain, right? And he goes, Yes, yes, yes. And they're they're exchanging information back and forth, back and forth.

1730
02:20:53,118 --> 02:21:16,118
And assuming that game works, you can trust this prover to to facilitate all of this programmability, like a potential, you know, soft fork, like we can emulate the ZKP verifier off chain. Now, if the prover all of a sudden, like maybe they accept a zero knowledge proof that isn't actually valid, like they they are essentially defaulting on their agreement to run this program off chain.

1731
02:21:17,118 --> 02:21:44,118
The verifier who they were interacting with off chain could say, Hey, this is bullshit, man, like, you're lying right now. And they could submit a fraud proof, which is just like a very small piece of data that proves that they they did not follow the rules that they committed to following on chain. So again, you're kind of taking this this wrong that was done off chain, you're proving it on chain. And because they already committed to it on chain, you can essentially slash the prover and you can you can take away their funds.

1732
02:21:44,118 --> 02:22:05,118
And so if that does occur, the prover would be slashed, the verifier would be rewarded, and then there would be a new, a new prover that is essentially assigned. All this happens within the context of this kind of frost type multisig that you're talking about where there could be 100 parties in that multisig, and only one of them is the prover that's doing all this stuff off chain.

1733
02:22:06,118 --> 02:22:24,118
And 99 of them are these are these potential verifiers that could slash the prover. And then if the prover gets found to again, be defaulted, then you know, out of the remaining 99 verifiers, one of them becomes assigned a prover. And then the process essentially repeats.

1734
02:22:25,118 --> 02:22:36,118
Okay, that's, that's interesting. So Paul, if this works out, technically, you could spin up your own sidechain, like big VM type sidechain, and include drivechain in it.

1735
02:22:37,118 --> 02:22:52,118
Well, really, there's no difference between what he just described in drivechain, really, in my point of view. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people are like, what the heck is he talking about? See, at the end of the day, it's just one disadvantage of that one requires a soft fork. So there is a difference.

1736
02:22:53,118 --> 02:23:13,118
Well, it's not really the case that what BIP300 requires, it doesn't have to be a soft fork, it would be better if everyone would just go to the library and learn with all these words are supposed to mean, and then use them the right way. And then activate via soft fork.

1737
02:23:13,118 --> 02:23:42,118
But if 300 can be done, even the way without a soft fork also, and it will work exactly the same. It's just because, well, I tweeted about it. It's in my highlights. It's called the core untouched soft fork. And, but this whole, this whole thing is nonsense. Anyway, you know what I mean? Like, I'm just trying, I've been trying to explain this for years, which is that the whole thing about whether or not something needs a soft fork.

1738
02:23:43,118 --> 02:23:57,118
Is just an exercise in like stupidity, basically. So again, the soft fork is like, it's this thing that all you need to do is have Satoshi built it into Bitcoin, where you have these op nops that are supposed to be there for upgrades.

1739
02:23:58,118 --> 02:24:11,118
So I'm not even sure I can find a metaphor, but I'm going to search my brain here. This is like as if your if your parents left you a trust fund with an unlimited amount of money in it. So use this money if you ever need any money.

1740
02:24:12,118 --> 02:24:34,118
And then all of a sudden, at some point, someone was worried about how we were spending 13 of this dollars. And then one of the siblings or something, they made this huge deal about it in 2017.

1741
02:24:34,118 --> 02:24:49,118
And now everyone is just talking about, well, how do we, how do we do this without touching the enormous pile of infinite money? And what we should do is just admit to ourselves that we're wrong about caring about this issue, because it's stupid.

1742
02:24:49,118 --> 02:25:10,118
The reason it's stupid is because, on contra what you may have heard, a soft fork is undetectable by the old nodes who have not run it. That is why it's harmless. So the idea that a soft fork could even be political is false. And the idea that there's anything bad about a soft fork is also false.

1743
02:25:10,218 --> 02:25:13,458
false. the that a soft work requires effort is false.

1744
02:25:13,738 --> 02:25:14,538
All these things are not true.

1745
02:25:14,678 --> 02:25:19,198
You're kind of speaking to the choir here, but at the of the day, you're dealing with

1746
02:25:19,198 --> 02:25:21,548
people and the consensus of people

1747
02:25:22,268 --> 02:25:27,388
At the end of the day, think BIP300 will activate without any pull requests into

1748
02:25:27,388 --> 02:25:32,208
Bitcoin Core. will be like miners will just run like additional software.

1749
02:25:32,308 --> 02:25:32,978
It'll be Bitcoin Core

1750
02:25:40,118 --> 02:25:56,118
The thing is that the Bitcoin Core pull request process is broken. It's not the other way around. You know, it's like we have a magic horn of plenty here that produces infinite prosperity. But the king refuses to use it.

1751
02:25:56,118 --> 02:26:10,118
So instead, we will like build a really long, I don't know, pole and like a really long those grab it things and just grab the stuff out. But it doesn't say anything about why the horn of plenty is bad.

1752
02:26:10,958 --> 02:26:14,678
Yeah. know, say soft fork is requiring, soft fork is bad.

1753
02:26:14,838 --> 02:26:17,698
But the thing is the same thing, really, but let me finish my thought.

1754
02:26:17,998 --> 02:26:19,958
know I've been rambling on for a little while here,

1755
02:26:20,284 --> 02:26:23,724
basically people say, BIP300 requires...

1756
02:26:24,684 --> 02:26:28,004
The BIP300 thing helps keep the miners honest.

1757
02:26:29,004 --> 02:26:30,364
That's for the benefit of the

1758
02:26:41,118 --> 02:26:52,118
And then at the end of the day, all you have is the ability to broadcast something to L1 to slash them. And at the end of the day, you're still assuming that the miners prefer to have more transaction fees.

1759
02:26:53,118 --> 02:27:08,118
Because you assume that they are willing to include this thing, this BitVM proof thing. So the whole thing is a mess. And even Robin Linus, the inventor of BitVM, he said that he only invented it to get BIP300 in the circuitous way.

1760
02:27:09,118 --> 02:27:15,118
So I'm sure it will be used for many, like most inventions, it will be used for many things beyond what it was intended for.

1761
02:27:15,118 --> 02:27:16,118
I would challenge that.

1762
02:27:16,118 --> 02:27:17,118
And I think that's great.

1763
02:27:17,118 --> 02:27:30,118
And then he, the group that he had in Telegram was really called, you know, hack a ZKP verifier into Bitcoin. Like that's what BitVM was born out of. So I don't think the explicit design goal was drivechains. I think Robin's a fan of drivechains, but his goal was to bring zero knowledge.

1764
02:27:30,118 --> 02:27:33,118
Well, he has tweeted about this. There's an exact tweet.

1765
02:27:33,118 --> 02:27:38,118
He wants a ZKP in Bitcoin. We've talked about it.

1766
02:27:38,118 --> 02:27:39,118
Yes.

1767
02:27:39,118 --> 02:27:48,118
The unfortunate thing though is the ZKP doesn't do anything either, though, because what ZKP is just SPV mode plus a situation that doesn't exist.

1768
02:27:48,118 --> 02:27:50,118
Can you elaborate on that?

1769
02:27:50,118 --> 02:28:03,118
SPV mode is you just get all the 80 byte headers, which is 4.4 megabytes a year, which is very practical. And everyone, a million, tons of people use this architecture every day.

1770
02:28:03,118 --> 02:28:05,118
This is such a great idea.

1771
02:28:06,118 --> 02:28:25,118
And the ZKProver would be like the coin witness concept. That would be a good idea if and only if we lived in a world where you were shown, you ran, lots of people ran SPV wallets and they were constantly being tricked.

1772
02:28:25,118 --> 02:28:32,118
Like they don't know which chain is valid. I know which chain is the longest, but which chain is valid and which chain is not valid.

1773
02:28:33,118 --> 02:28:43,118
In a world where people are being tricked often, like once a week. Instead, it has literally never happened and it never will happen because of how well designed SPV is.

1774
02:28:43,118 --> 02:28:54,118
So that is the whole thing. The ZKProof solves a problem that doesn't exist because it just doesn't exist.

1775
02:28:54,118 --> 02:28:57,118
It's like solving the problem of what if the gravity turns off.

1776
02:28:57,118 --> 02:29:04,118
I thought that it helped out with doing the equivalent of like the UTREXO stuff so that it would...

1777
02:29:04,118 --> 02:29:12,118
UTREXO, you may be right about that, but UTREXO is another example of something that would work perfectly fine and everyone would be able to use a mobile phone.

1778
02:29:12,118 --> 02:29:15,118
Everyone have a full node on a mobile phone.

1779
02:29:15,118 --> 02:29:23,118
And the only reason we can't is because people are afraid of soft forking the UTREXO commitment into the Coinbase transaction in Bitcoin.

1780
02:29:23,118 --> 02:29:30,118
So this is another case where the king, he has the all-powerful soft fork thing.

1781
02:29:30,118 --> 02:29:41,118
And it's really because these sort of basically evil people have, like Grima Wormtongue people have told the king that the soft fork is very political and you can never use that.

1782
02:29:41,118 --> 02:29:45,118
That all of us have to suffer in a world where we don't have it. It's like literal sabotage.

1783
02:29:45,118 --> 02:29:55,118
Yeah, but I think that at the end of the day, if that's the true case, it's all like, yo, go and develop your own competitive client to court.

1784
02:29:55,118 --> 02:30:01,118
Yeah, absolutely. No, I think that I think I may do that because I think it's very easy to compete.

1785
02:30:02,118 --> 02:30:13,118
And I think that it will be able to what it will be. I have to stress, it will be a piece of software where it downloads and runs Bitcoin Core, Bitcoin D.

1786
02:30:13,118 --> 02:30:24,118
But it just keeps it like in a box. And it just kind of like doesn't ask it, you know, about, you know, which UTREXO are real and then which blocks are real, but it doesn't do anything else.

1787
02:30:24,118 --> 02:30:32,118
And then everything else is just like it's like the engine of a car and you just it's like a C++ compiler and you just so it won't be a competitor.

1788
02:30:32,118 --> 02:30:39,118
It will be a competitor to the software that people actually use. So it's like very rarely do people use Bitcoin Core anyway.

1789
02:30:39,118 --> 02:30:50,118
But the end user thing will be it will download Bitcoin Core and it will sort of be like, again, you know, I love to come up with these metaphors, guys.

1790
02:30:50,118 --> 02:30:56,118
I'm trying to come up with one that I think is nice. It's like Bitcoin Core will be in there, but it will be hidden away.

1791
02:30:56,118 --> 02:31:02,118
You know, it's kind of like, you know, the engine of a car or the CPU of a computer.

1792
02:31:02,118 --> 02:31:07,118
You just you seal it away and you put the alienware stuff around it.

1793
02:31:07,118 --> 02:31:12,118
It's like you put a nice, you know, put in the leather seats and no one ever sees the engine.

1794
02:31:12,118 --> 02:31:16,118
You know, no one sees the it'll be doing the work, but it will be.

1795
02:31:16,118 --> 02:31:28,118
And I think if you do this type of architecture, you can have things such as UTREXO where everyone running your software has UTREXO, but the people only run Bitcoin Core don't.

1796
02:31:28,118 --> 02:31:42,118
So I think it's the whole thing is that you see from my point of view, the whole thing is just a list of people who are outing themselves as not understanding how Bitcoin works, not wanting Bitcoin to succeed.

1797
02:31:42,118 --> 02:31:47,118
I don't think it's that emotional, bro.

1798
02:31:47,118 --> 02:31:49,118
I don't think it's that emotional, bro.

1799
02:31:50,118 --> 02:31:57,118
I think at the end of the day, we're in Bitcoin where everybody has a different opinion and a different perspective of how things are supposed to work.

1800
02:31:57,118 --> 02:32:05,118
And like I was saying, if you build your own client and you get some adoption behind it, then you get your idea.

1801
02:32:05,118 --> 02:32:08,118
But I think you also know, though, that I think you're right about that.

1802
02:32:08,118 --> 02:32:11,118
But I think you also know that it's not really like.

1803
02:32:11,118 --> 02:32:24,118
It's not like, you know, you even just because you have something that's better doesn't mean that you will be, you know, there's like go start your own country or something like that's a lot of work that people shouldn't have to do.

1804
02:32:24,118 --> 02:32:27,118
It's like morally wrong.

1805
02:32:28,118 --> 02:32:36,118
I think it's more like the nomad, capitalist, go where you're treated best type situation.

1806
02:32:36,118 --> 02:32:38,118
Yeah, I agree.

1807
02:32:38,118 --> 02:32:41,118
And if you're ambitious enough, start your own country.

1808
02:32:41,118 --> 02:32:43,118
It's nothing wrong with that.

1809
02:32:43,118 --> 02:32:47,118
But would you really say there's nothing wrong if the.

1810
02:32:47,118 --> 02:32:49,118
David wants to say something.

1811
02:32:50,118 --> 02:32:56,118
No, sorry, I was going to go back to kind of your claim that there's a redundancy between like the SPV and like a zero knowledge proof.

1812
02:32:56,118 --> 02:32:59,118
Like, can you just help me clarify my understanding?

1813
02:32:59,118 --> 02:33:09,118
Like, like an SPV proof, like you essentially need to be running a light client and then you can receive an SPV and you can prove that like, you know, a payment happened, you know, on this separate blockchain.

1814
02:33:10,118 --> 02:33:17,118
So one, it requires light clients to be running of like the separate chain, but also it's like a zero knowledge proof.

1815
02:33:17,118 --> 02:33:24,118
And I kind of mentioned this earlier, like it can compress all the computation done in like a fully expressive environment, not just payments.

1816
02:33:24,118 --> 02:33:34,118
But you could be running like a thousand smart contract interactions in any expressive programmable language, and you can compress that proof and prove the validity.

1817
02:33:34,118 --> 02:33:36,118
So I just think it's like an SPV.

1818
02:33:36,118 --> 02:33:38,118
Yeah, but SPV, no, it already does that.

1819
02:33:38,118 --> 02:33:47,118
It doesn't, what SPV does is it says, we assert that this is valid without proof.

1820
02:33:47,118 --> 02:33:57,118
And that assertion is as 100% reliability rating because of just based on indirect, because there's no reason.

1821
02:33:58,118 --> 02:34:10,118
It has nothing to do with like, again, it's like the laws of physics allow Bill Gates to take his private jet, knock on the door to the captain and say, oh, hey, I'm Bill Gates.

1822
02:34:10,118 --> 02:34:13,118
Can I like, I want to show my nephew the controls.

1823
02:34:13,118 --> 02:34:14,118
And then they're like, what?

1824
02:34:14,118 --> 02:34:22,118
And they opened the door and then Bill Gates tasers the people and handcuffs them or just kills them or whatever.

1825
02:34:22,118 --> 02:34:29,118
And then he seizes the controls of the airplane and crashes the airplane into Microsoft headquarters.

1826
02:34:29,118 --> 02:34:31,118
Now, the laws of physics allow that.

1827
02:34:31,118 --> 02:34:40,118
The ZK people are so weird and artistic and bizarre and so confused and wasting everyone's time, no offense.

1828
02:34:40,118 --> 02:34:43,118
I'm trying to be a little funny here, but I'm also trying to just give you the world.

1829
02:34:43,118 --> 02:34:49,118
This is my take on it, that they are going around the world presenting at conferences.

1830
02:34:49,118 --> 02:34:58,118
And they have PowerPoint slides that say, we have invented a new universe where the laws of physics do not allow Bill Gates to crash his own private jet into Microsoft headquarters.

1831
02:34:58,118 --> 02:34:59,118
And they're saying, this is great.

1832
02:34:59,118 --> 02:35:01,118
And they're celebrating this result.

1833
02:35:01,118 --> 02:35:03,118
And it's like that has never happened.

1834
02:35:03,748 --> 02:35:05,508
And it's not going to happen.

1835
02:35:05,508 --> 02:35:07,668
And you're doing an awful lot of work

1836
02:35:07,668 --> 02:35:09,948
to address a scenario that doesn't exist,

1837
02:35:09,948 --> 02:35:14,708
because there is no reason why miners would spend the full amount.

1838
02:35:14,708 --> 02:35:18,268
They have every interest in making sure that the blocks they mine are valid.

1839
02:35:18,268 --> 02:35:28,868
Now, it's not appropriate for no one to be making sure that it's because we have the full nodes keeping the miners honest, that they are honest.

1840
02:35:28,868 --> 02:35:35,748
But given that this whole system is running at all, it is perfectly fine for some people to free ride off of SPV.

1841
02:35:35,748 --> 02:35:37,187
That is the total intent.

1842
02:35:37,187 --> 02:35:39,347
It's an empirical question.

1843
02:35:39,347 --> 02:35:44,748
I would be wrong if we lived in a world where people were constantly being tricked.

1844
02:35:44,748 --> 02:35:47,468
And they said, oh, I used Electrum.

1845
02:35:47,468 --> 02:35:54,948
And the two guys would sit down at a bar, and they would say, oh, you know, David, you were right.

1846
02:35:55,908 --> 02:36:02,547
I didn't check the validity of each state, all the expressivity of each state transition.

1847
02:36:02,547 --> 02:36:04,547
And then he'd be like, oh, I'm sorry, man.

1848
02:36:04,547 --> 02:36:06,027
And he'd be like, how much did you lose?

1849
02:36:06,027 --> 02:36:11,908
And they'd be like, this is the time that I bought my, I sold my Harley-Davidson motorcycle.

1850
02:36:11,908 --> 02:36:12,987
And they're like, oh, no.

1851
02:36:12,987 --> 02:36:16,027
And he's like, I lost $15,000 because I used Electrum.

1852
02:36:16,027 --> 02:36:18,347
And they're like, it happens sometimes.

1853
02:36:18,347 --> 02:36:21,027
And he's like, aren't you happy, though, that at least you saved money?

1854
02:36:21,027 --> 02:36:25,468
You didn't have to run the full node, or you didn't have to run the 50.

1855
02:36:25,468 --> 02:36:27,068
I mean, this is ridiculous.

1856
02:36:27,068 --> 02:36:28,627
This is completely absurd.

1857
02:36:28,627 --> 02:36:29,748
This has never happened.

1858
02:36:29,748 --> 02:36:31,228
It never will happen.

1859
02:36:31,228 --> 02:36:33,947
It's not a real consideration.

1860
02:36:33,947 --> 02:36:41,347
So is it good for people to improve SPV mode as much as they can with all kinds of fraud proofs, ZK proofs?

1861
02:36:41,347 --> 02:36:42,428
Absolutely.

1862
02:36:42,428 --> 02:36:50,947
I, myself, have written a giant blog post about fraud proofs that uses Lightning LN channels, nonetheless.

1863
02:36:50,947 --> 02:36:53,868
I've totally, 1 million percent, support people doing that.

1864
02:36:53,868 --> 02:37:00,267
I support people doing ZK proofs, even though I am very concerned that no one will understand what the ZK prover thing is doing.

1865
02:37:00,267 --> 02:37:02,307
And so it may ultimately not matter.

1866
02:37:02,307 --> 02:37:05,027
But if the software is doing it, they don't know what a hash function is doing either.

1867
02:37:05,027 --> 02:37:09,307
So I fully support all this.

1868
02:37:09,307 --> 02:37:16,387
I just think, to me, it is really like I'm sitting at a conference among a bunch of airplane designers.

1869
02:37:16,387 --> 02:37:21,988
And they say, we have changed the airplane so that Bill Gates cannot crash it into the headquarters.

1870
02:37:21,988 --> 02:37:29,748
And you're like, well, that is a stupid thing for smart people to spend their time doing.

1871
02:37:29,748 --> 02:37:32,507
And that's just how I feel.

1872
02:37:32,507 --> 02:37:33,787
Now we have a lot of people with hands up.

1873
02:37:33,787 --> 02:37:35,507
So I don't know who.

1874
02:37:35,507 --> 02:37:39,188
Bro, you just got to get started on that client.

1875
02:37:39,188 --> 02:37:41,268
That's the thing.

1876
02:37:41,268 --> 02:37:47,748
And I'm excited because I've brought it up many times.

1877
02:37:47,748 --> 02:37:55,908
And just the whole entire thing is like, yeah, we're going to have an ecosystem where everyone's going to be interested in what they're interested in.

1878
02:37:55,908 --> 02:38:02,268
And it would be irrational to think that anything would happen differently when you're dealing in a decentralized area.

1879
02:38:02,268 --> 02:38:13,507
So someone like yourself, if you create that client and now specifically, there's tons of people out there who want to support you in the development of that client.

1880
02:38:13,507 --> 02:38:18,227
Ideally, I think that would keep Bitcoin more decentralized and would give optionality.

1881
02:38:18,227 --> 02:38:23,348
And if at the end of the day, everyone just wants to run core, which I think a lot of people will.

1882
02:38:23,348 --> 02:38:25,787
It's like the majority client right now.

1883
02:38:25,787 --> 02:38:26,507
That's awesome.

1884
02:38:26,507 --> 02:38:32,027
And for the people who want to run Paul's client, that'd be great.

1885
02:38:32,027 --> 02:38:37,828
Now you have more freedom to do what you want.

1886
02:38:37,828 --> 02:38:41,227
Yes, Madfelly has been trying to get up for a while.

1887
02:38:41,227 --> 02:38:41,708
Hello.

1888
02:38:41,708 --> 02:38:42,628
Hi, thank you.

1889
02:38:42,628 --> 02:38:43,628
Paul, can you hear me OK?

1890
02:38:43,628 --> 02:38:44,867
I just want to make sure you can hear me.

1891
02:38:44,867 --> 02:38:46,027
I can hear you.

1892
02:38:46,027 --> 02:38:47,227
Now you hear me loud and clear.

1893
02:38:47,227 --> 02:38:48,147
Awesome.

1894
02:38:48,147 --> 02:38:56,108
It's funny because I'm not a developer, but I've been, you know, I work with a lot of developers and stuff.

1895
02:38:56,108 --> 02:38:58,947
And I'm actually more of a behavioral specialist.

1896
02:38:58,947 --> 02:39:03,307
But I have my I have two little Bitcoin miners that people's like, why do you run those machines?

1897
02:39:03,307 --> 02:39:04,628
They use a ton of electricity.

1898
02:39:04,628 --> 02:39:06,108
I was like, damn it, because I like it.

1899
02:39:06,108 --> 02:39:07,147
And it's damn cool.

1900
02:39:07,147 --> 02:39:09,628
And it gives me something to do.

1901
02:39:09,628 --> 02:39:24,707
But, you know, one of the things that I've kind of, you know, just kind of discovered, of course, through my years in blockchain is that there's nothing that's gotten me more excited than really the ZK proofs for one and really one reason.

1902
02:39:24,707 --> 02:39:35,948
And this is and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, is that you can have, you know, in drivechains and sidechains, you know, you have to be you have to pay in and out to interact with that ecosystem.

1903
02:39:35,948 --> 02:39:45,267
While in ZK roll ups, you can have all of these layer twos on Bitcoin and basically you can interact with all of them.

1904
02:39:45,468 --> 02:39:50,228
You know, it's kind of like what I think a polygon call is like the aggregation layer, stuff like that.

1905
02:39:50,748 --> 02:39:55,948
And that's the type of stuff that I'm hoping the ZK proof on these Bitcoin L2s does.

1906
02:39:55,948 --> 02:40:08,587
And as a as a miner, it was like, wow, you know, if I could also, you know, do merge mining into all these layer twos where you're participating, you're getting it, you know, you're secure in the network and all this stuff.

1907
02:40:08,587 --> 02:40:14,748
And it just sounds like something that's where I see what people would want to come in and participate because I feel it's more inclusive.

1908
02:40:15,107 --> 02:40:27,987
There's one complaint people always that, you know, here's what looks like, you know, hey, Bitcoin mining is great, but, you know, I'd rather do stuff on Ethereum or Matic or cheap fees and all this other stuff because there's not a lot of stuff besides inscriptions and stamps.

1909
02:40:27,987 --> 02:40:30,427
There's not a lot of defy that you can do on Bitcoin.

1910
02:40:30,867 --> 02:40:38,427
I think this is where all of a sudden you can capture that market in terms of saying, hey, look, it doesn't matter what chain you're on.

1911
02:40:38,508 --> 02:40:40,748
We have, you know, you don't have to pay in and out.

1912
02:40:40,948 --> 02:40:51,147
You just have this thing where it's like the unified liquidity, unified this and that basically based on that, you can be on whichever other layer two and do whatever you'd like on it.

1913
02:40:51,388 --> 02:40:54,987
And that to me is it basically gives easy access to all the stuff.

1914
02:40:54,987 --> 02:40:56,107
And that's why I'm excited about it.

1915
02:40:57,908 --> 02:41:05,468
I don't think it is a real difference because there's no way that you can use the L2 unless someone has pegged coins into it.

1916
02:41:05,908 --> 02:41:13,188
I think probably, I mean, for drivechain, you can someone else can peg the coins in and then you can get on boarded to the L2 directly.

1917
02:41:13,948 --> 02:41:19,468
And in all the cases, there will be people who just make like a front end that just like covers everything.

1918
02:41:19,827 --> 02:41:24,867
And it's not going to be totally clear what it's doing under the hood, you know, at a glance.

1919
02:41:25,188 --> 02:41:27,587
But I think all those things are the same.

1920
02:41:27,587 --> 02:41:30,628
I don't think it is different that there would be.

1921
02:41:30,827 --> 02:41:32,068
But it might be different.

1922
02:41:32,068 --> 02:41:33,307
I don't know. I doubt it.

1923
02:41:33,307 --> 02:41:39,788
I think my guess is that there'd be like 20 sidechain, 10 or 11 for payments.

1924
02:41:39,788 --> 02:41:43,987
And then there'd be a couple that do like very specialized things.

1925
02:41:44,267 --> 02:41:45,707
That's kind of my guess.

1926
02:41:45,748 --> 02:41:48,587
Now, of course, that is a total guess on my part.

1927
02:41:48,587 --> 02:41:50,068
I don't know if that is the case.

1928
02:41:50,068 --> 02:41:53,107
But if there's only 20, then it's not mostly like people.

1929
02:41:53,267 --> 02:42:00,228
It's kind of like how, you know, if you go from North America, you go to Europe, you have to change the US dollar for euros.

1930
02:42:00,867 --> 02:42:07,508
So my guess is that people would be like switching chains, like it would be like that type of thing where it doesn't really happen that often.

1931
02:42:07,508 --> 02:42:12,068
And people mostly just hang out on whichever chains they like.

1932
02:42:12,068 --> 02:42:13,788
But I could totally be wrong about that.

1933
02:42:14,267 --> 02:42:15,508
But I don't think that is a very.

1934
02:42:15,908 --> 02:42:17,748
Yeah, I don't think that's a big difference between.

1935
02:42:17,748 --> 02:42:22,068
Yeah, I think with when you like, let's say, let's say you have Rootstock and I want to do a different one.

1936
02:42:22,068 --> 02:42:24,668
I hate to mention names because it feels like I'm promoting it.

1937
02:42:24,668 --> 02:42:28,547
But if I'm in one drivechain and I'm pegged in, but now I want to go to a different one.

1938
02:42:28,547 --> 02:42:35,827
I think I have to peg in and out of those different ones just because now you can swap the swap market.

1939
02:42:35,827 --> 02:42:37,348
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

1940
02:42:37,348 --> 02:42:49,307
But it's not as seamless as it is saying, like, hey, look, I'm on a I'm on Metamask, you know, here is my wallet at CBM and I can see all the different chains right there without having to do too much work.

1941
02:42:50,587 --> 02:42:52,068
Yeah, Metamask is a front.

1942
02:42:52,388 --> 02:42:59,188
I think that one thing where Bitcoin has dropped the ball relative to Ethereum is the front end and particularly Metamask.

1943
02:42:59,188 --> 02:43:04,908
And it's kind of a wacky situation where Ethereum actually has no it didn't have like a native front end.

1944
02:43:04,908 --> 02:43:07,508
And as a result, people competed to build one.

1945
02:43:07,508 --> 02:43:09,267
And then the Metamask got pretty good.

1946
02:43:09,267 --> 02:43:11,107
And like browser wallets are kind of good.

1947
02:43:11,628 --> 02:43:15,987
We don't really have that in Bitcoin, which is our loss.

1948
02:43:15,987 --> 02:43:21,707
But I'm actually working on something kind of like that now, although I work on a lot of different things.

1949
02:43:21,707 --> 02:43:22,948
And then I kind of abandoned them.

1950
02:43:22,948 --> 02:43:30,468
But but I think you're right that but that's that's a that's a function of Metamask, really.

1951
02:43:30,987 --> 02:43:38,667
And just we have, obviously, we have Unisat's wallets now, it's starting up.

1952
02:43:38,708 --> 02:43:47,347
Yeah, I have to interject because I don't like Metamask because Metamask is involved in a lot of scams.

1953
02:43:47,667 --> 02:43:53,467
I think we should actually build a new one, even for BitVM or anything else.

1954
02:43:53,948 --> 02:43:56,787
Don't use Metamask to build anything else.

1955
02:43:57,628 --> 02:43:58,948
Yeah, I agree with that.

1956
02:43:58,948 --> 02:44:06,227
But I was just trying to say that Metamask does a very good job of, as he was saying, Metamask, like, it was just you just open it and you just it was just an example.

1957
02:44:06,227 --> 02:44:14,667
You just like it like wraps everything like it's like it kind of is like user friendly is I think the point.

1958
02:44:14,787 --> 02:44:20,227
Anyway, we got a bunch of people who are now let's see, maybe come up and down.

1959
02:44:20,588 --> 02:44:21,628
Bitcode has a hand.

1960
02:44:22,987 --> 02:44:30,028
Yeah, I wanted to give a simple example, comparison and how people can understand it.

1961
02:44:31,347 --> 02:44:41,628
Like, maybe I was wrong that they didn't put ZK kind of knowledge proofs or whatever in Bitcoin.

1962
02:44:41,628 --> 02:44:45,748
But here is one example for drivechains.

1963
02:44:45,748 --> 02:44:48,987
And that's the BIP301, it's the merge mining.

1964
02:44:48,987 --> 02:44:49,907
What is merge mining?

1965
02:44:50,588 --> 02:44:53,508
It's the same like ZK, ZK roll up proofs.

1966
02:44:54,427 --> 02:44:55,388
It is the same.

1967
02:44:55,547 --> 02:45:03,467
I mean, like the ZK and I have knowledge in this because I was following deep research in ZK technology.

1968
02:45:03,467 --> 02:45:19,068
What is ZK is mathematical equation that assuming that the other side having something and proof without any, you know, between to have anything between us.

1969
02:45:19,227 --> 02:45:27,028
So that's, you know, like and also ZK when we see the world.

1970
02:45:27,628 --> 02:45:35,148
What means is exactly that, that the other side do not have knowledge of what I'm doing.

1971
02:45:35,307 --> 02:45:39,347
So the blind merge mining is exactly that.

1972
02:45:39,787 --> 02:45:44,068
The miners do not know what we are doing, what I'm doing on sidechain.

1973
02:45:44,748 --> 02:45:48,828
So that is one example just to.

1974
02:45:50,028 --> 02:45:56,427
I just want to clarify on those knowledge proofs like you kind of mentioned privacy, like ZKPs used to be used in the context of like creating

1975
02:45:56,427 --> 02:45:59,107
totally encrypted end-to-end transactions, like very privacy.

1976
02:45:59,268 --> 02:46:01,987
Now, when people mention them, it's in the context of like scaling.

1977
02:46:01,987 --> 02:46:03,948
So I just want to make sure the audience understands that.

1978
02:46:04,188 --> 02:46:09,427
The whole point of a zero knowledge roll ups and ZKPs, it's not to create privacy.

1979
02:46:09,427 --> 02:46:13,628
That's just like one byproduct of the many things that could potentially enable.

1980
02:46:13,628 --> 02:46:15,107
So small point of clarification there.

1981
02:46:15,107 --> 02:46:17,268
It's for scaling, not privacy necessarily.

1982
02:46:18,268 --> 02:46:29,867
But I hope this scaling comes with privacy to make something private before even making the soft fork, before making it.

1983
02:46:29,867 --> 02:46:43,268
I mean, let me, I have two questions here and that's why I stayed for the hand and waited too long because it's not about this topic, almost, you know, I would diverge.

1984
02:46:44,068 --> 02:46:51,508
I'll put on the last of the, a tweet from Jameson Wopp.

1985
02:46:53,307 --> 02:46:59,427
Because BitVM, Citraya uses descriptions, right?

1986
02:46:59,748 --> 02:47:09,188
Just like I said, and every time you make inscriptions, you have to pay the fees.

1987
02:47:10,068 --> 02:47:22,907
And this chart, this graph of Jameson Wopp, shows the size of the Bitcoin serialized UTXOs.

1988
02:47:23,347 --> 02:47:28,467
So it's double from 4 gigabytes to 10 gigabytes.

1989
02:47:29,268 --> 02:47:36,748
And I'll be honest on this, I don't understand how it works properly.

1990
02:47:37,148 --> 02:47:42,107
It's stored on the computer run, I think.

1991
02:47:43,068 --> 02:47:58,628
So if it's keeping growing this way and BitVM will make it grow because just like inscriptions, what problems can it brings?

1992
02:47:59,068 --> 02:48:02,427
And doesn't BIP300 solves that?

1993
02:48:02,828 --> 02:48:09,307
And the second question is, for you, Paul.

1994
02:48:10,667 --> 02:48:18,907
Is the miner, how can I say that?

1995
02:48:19,867 --> 02:48:33,388
When BIP300 is activated, there is a limit of 2,000 and I don't know how much more BIP300.

1996
02:48:33,388 --> 02:48:35,388
256, yeah.

1997
02:48:36,268 --> 02:48:59,068
The thing is, are the miners, for each chain that they approve, they need to run the nodes and make up the infrastructure to run the spaces of the chain that's needed, for example.

1998
02:49:00,028 --> 02:49:04,667
No, they only run the node if there is a dispute, which is also will probably never happen.

1999
02:49:04,667 --> 02:49:08,907
But even if they do need to run a node, they only need to sync the last six months.

2000
02:49:09,708 --> 02:49:11,148
So they need to do basically nothing.

2001
02:49:11,148 --> 02:49:23,948
And even if they wanted to run a node to sync the last six months, they can defer to their pool and the pools can all defer to each other.

2002
02:49:24,028 --> 02:49:29,068
And the pool, biggest pool can just defer to whoever they think is running a full node.

2003
02:49:30,268 --> 02:49:37,467
But this whole thing is irrelevant anyway, because running a full node, even for the most expensive sidechains like Solana, is only a few.

2004
02:49:39,948 --> 02:49:43,948
It's like $5,000 a year they've gotten it down to now for Solana.

2005
02:49:43,948 --> 02:49:49,948
But it doesn't even matter because you have to sync the full node only for the last six months.

2006
02:49:49,948 --> 02:49:51,948
So that only takes like a couple days.

2007
02:49:51,948 --> 02:50:03,948
So this whole thing is if there is ever a dispute, which will never happen, it won't happen precisely because it's so cheap to run the nodes and sync them for the last six months.

2008
02:50:03,948 --> 02:50:09,948
But it says if there is a dispute, then sync the node for a few days.

2009
02:50:09,948 --> 02:50:11,948
And this is going to cost like a couple hundred dollars.

2010
02:50:11,948 --> 02:50:19,948
But in return, the world I'm imagining is a world where they get 10 cents off of every transaction on Earth, which is $1.1 trillion in 2022.

2011
02:50:19,948 --> 02:50:23,948
And this is a figure that doubles every five or six years.

2012
02:50:23,948 --> 02:50:29,948
So it's $110 billion in revenue for the miners as a whole.

2013
02:50:29,948 --> 02:50:35,948
So it's like every year, but then it's $220 billion five years from now.

2014
02:50:35,948 --> 02:50:37,948
And the node costs will only get cheaper.

2015
02:50:37,948 --> 02:50:39,948
This whole thing is a red herring, I think.

2016
02:50:39,948 --> 02:50:41,948
It's just like people trying.

2017
02:50:41,948 --> 02:50:53,948
It's just more of just a sad failure to grasp like the reality of the situation and just try to find like, oh, the airplane might crash into the world headquarters.

2018
02:50:53,948 --> 02:50:54,948
It's like it's not happening.

2019
02:50:54,948 --> 02:50:55,948
It's just none of this.

2020
02:50:55,948 --> 02:50:59,948
None of these things that people think are relevant make any difference at all.

2021
02:50:59,948 --> 02:51:03,948
That's a great answer.

2022
02:51:03,948 --> 02:51:05,948
I want to add something.

2023
02:51:05,948 --> 02:51:16,948
It also is irrelevant if any transaction is inscribed or it just sent directly, because anyway, everything on Bitcoin is inscribing data.

2024
02:51:16,948 --> 02:51:19,948
Every single transaction is inscribed.

2025
02:51:19,948 --> 02:51:26,948
So it doesn't matter if it's a ordinal inscription or it's a normal transaction inscription.

2026
02:51:26,948 --> 02:51:29,948
Also, that is funny.

2027
02:51:29,948 --> 02:51:34,948
But, I mean, inscriptions are specifically in like the witness part of the block, which is like the discount.

2028
02:51:34,948 --> 02:51:38,948
There is like certain transaction data which goes into like the non-witness and doesn't receive the data.

2029
02:51:38,948 --> 02:51:42,948
So like if you're saying all the data technically goes into a block, it's like, well, that's true.

2030
02:51:42,948 --> 02:51:47,948
But within the block, there's like subset or kind of like drawers essentially where it.

2031
02:51:47,948 --> 02:51:51,948
David, I'm inscribing data on the legacy.

2032
02:51:51,948 --> 02:51:54,948
There is no witness data.

2033
02:51:54,948 --> 02:51:57,948
So.

2034
02:51:57,948 --> 02:52:03,948
I solve the problem, not myself only, but with another person.

2035
02:52:03,948 --> 02:52:07,947
We solve the problem about inscribing data and data can be inscribed.

2036
02:52:07,947 --> 02:52:18,947
I mean, in gigabytes without affecting the nodes, the blockchain size.

2037
02:52:18,947 --> 02:52:19,947
Do you mind elaborating on that?

2038
02:52:19,947 --> 02:52:21,947
Well, first, I'll ask your answer.

2039
02:52:21,947 --> 02:52:29,947
No, I can't. I can't. I can't talk about that because it's still, you know, people will still.

2040
02:52:29,947 --> 02:52:32,947
OK, it's all good. John, you can ask a question about like Jameson Lump's tweet.

2041
02:52:32,947 --> 02:52:39,947
I'll just quickly answer that. Like when people post ordinals or inscriptions that goes into a section of the block.

2042
02:52:39,947 --> 02:52:44,947
And then you use a bunch of that data to create like the UTXO set, which is like a snapshot of like everybody's Bitcoin balances.

2043
02:52:44,947 --> 02:52:47,947
The UTXO set that Jameson posted, that cannot be pruned.

2044
02:52:48,947 --> 02:52:51,947
Like people have to hold that so that everybody knows their Bitcoin balances.

2045
02:52:51,947 --> 02:52:55,947
But the inscriptions, the data that people are posting onto the chain, it goes into the blocks.

2046
02:52:55,947 --> 02:52:59,947
But then somebody said, oh, well, cool. This is in the block. I can just delete it immediately.

2047
02:52:59,947 --> 02:53:06,947
So the inscription data, which goes into the witness part of the block, which is like a drawer within the block, that data can be posted in there.

2048
02:53:06,947 --> 02:53:09,947
But then as soon as it's received by the node, they said, I don't need this bullshit.

2049
02:53:09,947 --> 02:53:13,947
Like I just throw it out. The UTXO set Jameson posted cannot be deleted.

2050
02:53:13,947 --> 02:53:16,947
That's the difference. So there's certain types of.

2051
02:53:16,947 --> 02:53:20,947
You need to you need to understand that the witness data is not important data in Bitcoin.

2052
02:53:20,947 --> 02:53:26,947
The transactional data is important. That's a very, very big factor of decision making.

2053
02:53:32,947 --> 02:53:40,947
Let me let me explain to you, because in the Bitcoin in the Bitcoin node or Bitcoin Core, if you want, there is a assume valid.

2054
02:53:40,947 --> 02:53:51,947
So the assume valid will discard all the all the data that is, I don't know, whatever they said.

2055
02:53:51,947 --> 02:53:56,947
Let's say a year from now in the past or six months in the past and et cetera, et cetera.

2056
02:53:56,947 --> 02:54:00,947
So the witness data is not the important data.

2057
02:54:00,947 --> 02:54:05,947
The transactional data is important data on the blockchain.

2058
02:54:05,947 --> 02:54:14,947
Well, I mean, so if you can check this, I think I think maybe, you know, Paul can correct me here, but you're describing like two different address types.

2059
02:54:14,947 --> 02:54:21,947
Like maybe you're using like like pre, you know, SegWit addresses where the signatures and the transaction data is all essentially batched together.

2060
02:54:21,947 --> 02:54:28,947
But the reason they added witnesses to fix transaction malleability, which kind of separates the the the signatures and the witness.

2061
02:54:28,947 --> 02:54:34,947
So you could use your address types that batch all of that together, the transaction data and the signatures.

2062
02:54:34,947 --> 02:54:47,947
But people that are using, you know, SegWit addresses, which is everybody using lightning and I think like Tapper addresses and all of that, like are going to have this separate section in the block where the signatures are placed into that.

2063
02:54:47,947 --> 02:54:53,947
And you can't just like if you have like a SegWit address, you can't just be like, oh, we don't need the witness because that's that's where the signatures go.

2064
02:54:53,947 --> 02:54:55,947
The signatures like prove that somebody can actually.

2065
02:54:55,947 --> 02:55:00,947
Why do you need the witness when it's validated a million times?

2066
02:55:00,947 --> 02:55:02,947
It's done. Well, but it's indirect.

2067
02:55:02,947 --> 02:55:10,947
Maybe six months after all the nodes have essentially verified and agreed on on the state of the chain, you're like, well, this thing's already been checked, you know, a million times.

2068
02:55:10,947 --> 02:55:11,947
But like.

2069
02:55:13,406 --> 02:55:14,966
You're kind of coming out this one narrow.

2070
02:55:15,886 --> 02:55:18,606
Why do you need to prove again after a million times?

2071
02:55:22,686 --> 02:55:28,886
On L2, you can discard it after six months because you can discard almost everything after six months, you can have UTXO commitment.

2072
02:55:29,686 --> 02:55:33,886
UTXO or UTREXO, either one or both.

2073
02:55:34,285 --> 02:55:39,365
But the that's on L2, that's the case on L1.

2074
02:55:39,566 --> 02:55:41,045
You're on the hook for everything.

2075
02:55:41,166 --> 02:55:43,646
Everything that was in the blockchain has to be served back.

2076
02:55:44,406 --> 02:55:48,685
People could ask for it at any time and you have to give it space.

2077
02:55:48,726 --> 02:55:50,205
I'm not saying that is deleted.

2078
02:55:50,406 --> 02:55:58,726
I just say that they disregard because it just it just doesn't doesn't validate anymore.

2079
02:55:59,606 --> 02:56:07,406
The signature check happens to be disproportionately in the computer is downloading the blocks and checking them all.

2080
02:56:08,365 --> 02:56:12,286
The signature is a very expensive thing for the computer to do, it takes a lot of.

2081
02:56:13,446 --> 02:56:22,925
Whatever, CPU cycles, you know, so so the idea behind assume valid is just if this thing is like more than like a year old.

2082
02:56:24,126 --> 02:56:35,045
Don't check that part, check everything else, make sure everything adds up and put the money in the right spot, but just don't look at the signatures, you know, because it's kind of like that ship has kind of sailed.

2083
02:56:35,325 --> 02:56:36,526
Like, what are you at that point?

2084
02:56:36,526 --> 02:56:37,886
It's kind of an interesting.

2085
02:56:38,925 --> 02:56:45,245
It's just but that that what's true about that, I think this is why you bring it up, the code, which is you're right.

2086
02:56:46,166 --> 02:56:47,406
That same principle.

2087
02:56:48,726 --> 02:56:54,045
Of that, if there was a problem with the signature, we have bigger problems, right?

2088
02:56:54,045 --> 02:57:00,325
That means like no one caught it until now and we have to reorg like six months like this is like a catastrophe.

2089
02:57:00,365 --> 02:57:02,325
This means something really, really bad has happened.

2090
02:57:03,086 --> 02:57:12,726
Yeah, that that exact logic is the same logic behind the the concept of that.

2091
02:57:14,965 --> 02:57:20,406
That logic is the same logic behind why it is the case that it doesn't matter.

2092
02:57:20,445 --> 02:57:25,926
Miners will never need to run a side drivechain node or whatever, because it just doesn't make any difference.

2093
02:57:26,926 --> 02:57:53,566
Yeah, yeah, it's like I agree for for data inscribing, like inscribing, you know, records, medical records, whatever it is, but for for proving something with the with the inscription, like ordinal inscription, that what they want to do for me doesn't doesn't make any sense because any transaction is exactly inscription on the blockchain.

2094
02:57:54,406 --> 02:57:57,406
Hey, Paul, what do you think about things like spider chain?

2095
02:57:57,406 --> 02:58:04,165
And I think it's like botanics or whatever, that new sidechain L2 thing coming out.

2096
02:58:05,726 --> 02:58:09,286
I think that that's that's an idea that's worth trying.

2097
02:58:10,486 --> 02:58:15,206
I don't think it's as good as drivechain, but I just think I think people should still try it if people are really into that.

2098
02:58:15,206 --> 02:58:21,846
That's good. It has this weird thing where you wouldn't the people who peg in.

2099
02:58:22,325 --> 02:58:25,846
They become the authorities on where the money goes.

2100
02:58:26,605 --> 02:58:29,126
So whoever is putting a huge amount of money early on.

2101
02:58:30,525 --> 02:58:40,486
Kind of gets to vote the destination of the money, but similar to me, they have all kinds of arguments about what it is that that will work, and I think that's great.

2102
02:58:40,685 --> 02:58:45,206
A major selling point of this is that it, quote, does not require any changes to Bitcoin.

2103
02:58:45,206 --> 02:58:51,445
Of course, you see, it is yet another victim of the disease of caring about this fake issue.

2104
02:58:51,726 --> 02:59:06,685
And unfortunately, I think that lots and lots of smart people are being driven down the path of, you know, how do we how do we how do we get more money without using the infinite bank account?

2105
02:59:07,846 --> 02:59:11,525
And it's like the problem is that people care about that issue.

2106
02:59:12,085 --> 02:59:17,525
What we should do instead is mount a huge social campaign, kind of like what.

2107
02:59:19,486 --> 02:59:28,406
Udi is doing and just say, activate the let's pick stuff that we can activate and just do some work and kill off.

2108
02:59:28,406 --> 02:59:33,965
I think I think you need to go back to the client ideas, the clients.

2109
02:59:34,485 --> 02:59:35,645
I think you're absolutely right.

2110
02:59:35,645 --> 02:59:36,685
No, you're right.

2111
02:59:36,685 --> 02:59:40,046
I mean, I had no idea that the you're 100 percent right.

2112
02:59:40,046 --> 02:59:40,965
And that is what I'm going to do.

2113
02:59:40,965 --> 02:59:45,846
I don't I don't know that we know is not going to change.

2114
02:59:45,846 --> 02:59:47,726
And realistically, I like it like this.

2115
02:59:48,365 --> 02:59:49,925
I support your idea.

2116
02:59:49,925 --> 02:59:54,046
And I think it's it's interesting because I like innovation and creativity.

2117
02:59:54,286 --> 02:59:56,205
But also, I get the whole dynamic.

2118
02:59:56,205 --> 03:00:02,006
If everyone and anyone could just change Bitcoin, it wouldn't be bad.

2119
03:00:02,006 --> 03:00:06,286
But you see, this is the mistake, though, is that that's why that's not what a soft fork is.

2120
03:00:07,245 --> 03:00:08,726
I saw a fork is how to change.

2121
03:00:08,726 --> 03:00:13,965
I understand what you're saying, but listen, listen, listen to the same theory.

2122
03:00:14,205 --> 03:00:19,765
Technically, you can make the block the block size smaller and that would be a soft fork.

2123
03:00:20,046 --> 03:00:26,685
We could take it like I hear what you're saying, but it does make a change.

2124
03:00:26,805 --> 03:00:28,446
I believe that you do understand.

2125
03:00:28,446 --> 03:00:33,166
I think most people don't understand what I'm saying, but I believe that you do understand what I'm saying, which is that.

2126
03:00:34,166 --> 03:00:54,046
It's like what the type of change that this is, is something that was already like in the normal fluctuations of the protocol or whatever, so it was like, it's not really a change, but but nonetheless, I'll tell you, the truth is, what is the change is merging a pull request into Bitcoin Core GitHub repository.

2127
03:00:54,046 --> 03:00:56,006
And in that sense, it is a change.

2128
03:00:56,166 --> 03:01:00,406
And that is apparently the thing that is the insurmountable barrier.

2129
03:01:00,685 --> 03:01:03,085
And that is the barrier that is jumped by.

2130
03:01:04,645 --> 03:01:13,446
And again, pull requests are merged all the time that I think are terrible and make the code worse and make the code much harder to audit and are very bad for security.

2131
03:01:13,446 --> 03:01:18,446
And some of them have even introduced inflation bugs and other kinds of crazy things that have happened in the past.

2132
03:01:19,446 --> 03:01:29,046
And I think that, you know, even refactoring the code is, in my view, kind of suspicious, because it's the kind of thing where not a lot of people review it.

2133
03:01:29,046 --> 03:01:35,286
And so it is changing.

2134
03:01:35,286 --> 03:01:36,846
The problem is Bitcoin Core.

2135
03:01:36,846 --> 03:01:39,326
The repository is changing a lot.

2136
03:01:40,606 --> 03:01:43,965
Unfortunately for you and I agree that it really shouldn't change.

2137
03:01:44,846 --> 03:01:46,645
And unfortunately, it is changing.

2138
03:01:48,166 --> 03:01:51,685
Because they released a new version that just does the same thing, but that's what a soft fork is.

2139
03:01:52,406 --> 03:01:59,765
So they're going every time they did something else.

2140
03:01:59,886 --> 03:02:07,365
So the old older versions, like, you know, whatever, I think like 16 was like the peak.

2141
03:02:07,566 --> 03:02:08,886
And now it sucks.

2142
03:02:08,886 --> 03:02:12,566
I think it's like really hard to like for people to find things.

2143
03:02:13,205 --> 03:02:15,046
It used to be just validation.cpp.

2144
03:02:15,046 --> 03:02:25,446
And now it's like 50 files or something, including like things that used to be just like parameters that were just declared once, which is like idiot software design one on one.

2145
03:02:25,485 --> 03:02:28,805
Now those things like spread out and like put in all these different places.

2146
03:02:30,606 --> 03:02:37,805
So I think even main.cpp being removed, that is a weird choice, like sort of off-putting, I think.

2147
03:02:38,446 --> 03:02:39,925
I think this is dangerous.

2148
03:02:39,925 --> 03:02:45,965
In fact, we need to decentralize the GitHub repository and I don't know, bringing more people.

2149
03:02:46,006 --> 03:02:57,286
Even me, I'm not a developer or a programmer, but we need to bring more people and talk about this and bring more people to open their software everywhere.

2150
03:02:57,286 --> 03:03:05,965
The thing is with the client, with a new client, it's going to diversify the perspectives for people who are in one camp.

2151
03:03:06,126 --> 03:03:09,645
They can specifically get behind this new client.

2152
03:03:10,166 --> 03:03:18,525
And then on the other side of things, the people who are like just, you know, maximally just into core, they can just stick with core and it'd be perfect.

2153
03:03:18,525 --> 03:03:19,685
Everybody wins.

2154
03:03:23,765 --> 03:03:25,046
Yeah, I mean, I agree with you.

2155
03:03:25,046 --> 03:03:28,085
I'm just trying to what I'm trying to tell you, Mr.

2156
03:03:28,726 --> 03:03:30,446
How do you how's your name pronounced?

2157
03:03:30,446 --> 03:03:31,446
It's Oflo.

2158
03:03:33,286 --> 03:03:34,805
Oflo, great.

2159
03:03:35,525 --> 03:03:36,525
Cool.

2160
03:03:38,566 --> 03:03:43,765
What I'm trying to tell you is like we kind of get the worst of both worlds as it is, which is that it is changing.

2161
03:03:45,085 --> 03:03:54,366
You and I kind of don't want it to change, but we kind of want I want like some small, transparent, minimal required changes.

2162
03:03:54,366 --> 03:03:55,846
And then other than that, no changes.

2163
03:03:56,246 --> 03:03:58,846
So, but it is changing.

2164
03:03:58,846 --> 03:03:59,846
But think about it like this.

2165
03:04:00,846 --> 03:04:03,686
All right. I think you're in the camp of being pro simplicity.

2166
03:04:03,686 --> 03:04:05,046
Right. More or less.

2167
03:04:05,046 --> 03:04:06,046
Masomenos.

2168
03:04:06,565 --> 03:04:12,846
Yeah. So I actually I like the idea for a while and I was thinking about it for a while.

2169
03:04:12,846 --> 03:04:18,445
And then I talked with Shinobi and he gave another perspective and I was like, huh, you have your point.

2170
03:04:18,885 --> 03:04:26,325
Basically, he was anti simplicity because simplicity basically opens up the door for everything, which was why I liked it.

2171
03:04:26,926 --> 03:04:31,486
But realizing that, OK, there's people who don't like simplicity.

2172
03:04:31,926 --> 03:04:32,926
Why not?

2173
03:04:32,965 --> 03:04:35,965
No, I actually don't like the Blockstream idea of simplicity.

2174
03:04:35,965 --> 03:04:37,445
I'm actually not a huge fan.

2175
03:04:37,445 --> 03:04:39,806
And I just thought you were talking about in general simplicity.

2176
03:04:41,286 --> 03:04:44,486
Yeah, the simplicity language and the it's a software.

2177
03:04:44,686 --> 03:04:46,486
Yeah, I think it's too weird.

2178
03:04:46,765 --> 03:04:51,445
But I think but this is what I'm trying to say is that it already changes too much and too little.

2179
03:04:52,005 --> 03:04:54,406
The actual GitHub code changes too much.

2180
03:04:55,286 --> 03:05:01,286
And the the actually the changes that would actually prevent you to change or do anything useful.

2181
03:05:01,965 --> 03:05:12,005
I said I talked about this with my friends here on Twitter and some some of them said no for for have a soft fork.

2182
03:05:12,005 --> 03:05:17,806
They have to upload to the soft core for the Bitcoin for GitHub.

2183
03:05:18,125 --> 03:05:19,525
No, you can't.

2184
03:05:19,525 --> 03:05:20,606
True. Right.

2185
03:05:22,765 --> 03:05:26,046
Yeah, the hard fork is the mandatory software change.

2186
03:05:26,085 --> 03:05:28,366
The soft fork is the ignorable one.

2187
03:05:28,406 --> 03:05:32,205
That's the whole point is that every there is no difference between a.

2188
03:05:34,366 --> 03:05:45,286
A soft for like because plenty of pull requests, you could have a pull request into Bitcoin that is not a soft fork, but which does something horrible, like just what if it just causes the node to just crash all the time?

2189
03:05:46,286 --> 03:06:05,726
And then nothing works, so then, but it's not a soft fork or you upload a change that the broadcast when you run the client, it tweets, it goes to connects to Twitter and it tweets out your private keys that is not a soft fork, but that would be bad.

2190
03:06:05,726 --> 03:06:10,406
So the whole obsession with the soft fork, that is the problem.

2191
03:06:10,965 --> 03:06:17,005
So this is part of this, because you asked about spider chain and all that, and it's sold as, oh, it doesn't require a soft fork.

2192
03:06:17,325 --> 03:06:20,926
This whole issue, that is the problem.

2193
03:06:20,965 --> 03:06:21,926
That is the problem.

2194
03:06:22,765 --> 03:06:24,765
The fact that people care about that is the problem.

2195
03:06:25,246 --> 03:06:27,046
It's like, what is wrong with people?

2196
03:06:27,085 --> 03:06:35,926
Yeah, but also also at the same time for like if someone wanted to make the block size of Bitcoin smaller with a soft fork, I would be against that.

2197
03:06:36,125 --> 03:06:52,085
So I get the dynamic of some people not being for your idea, but then at the same time, the people who are for your idea, I get why they're behind it, because your idea essentially allows everyone to have a sidechain and your trust in the miners.

2198
03:06:52,406 --> 03:06:57,406
It's it's a trade off, but the miner enforced a miner in the miners.

2199
03:06:57,445 --> 03:07:08,445
If the miners enforce the soft fork block size increase, that is no different than what we currently have, because what they're doing that in that case is they pay the opportunity cost of all the fees that they would collect.

2200
03:07:09,565 --> 03:07:11,726
And they shrink the block size to that thing.

2201
03:07:11,765 --> 03:07:13,445
Now, they can already do that.

2202
03:07:13,965 --> 03:07:16,525
That is that is the exact situation we live in today.

2203
03:07:17,125 --> 03:07:27,806
So the miners, when the like, for example, when UDI or whatever, they paid Luxor like four thousand dollars out of band or whatever they did with like a check or something.

2204
03:07:28,726 --> 03:07:37,286
And then in exchange, they did that big four megabyte inscription of the wizard that was shrinking the block size to zero for that block.

2205
03:07:38,246 --> 03:07:46,166
So the fact that the miners can move the block size between one megabyte and zero, that has always been the case.

2206
03:07:46,606 --> 03:07:50,286
So that's that's actually a pretty good example of something that is not a protocol change.

2207
03:07:51,806 --> 03:07:55,366
A miner enforced soft fork decreasing the block size.

2208
03:07:55,366 --> 03:08:00,166
We already have we already have infinite number of those soft forks active today.

2209
03:08:00,166 --> 03:08:02,806
Like the miners can shrink the block size at any time.

2210
03:08:03,246 --> 03:08:05,846
And if they do, they pay the opportunity cost of the fees.

2211
03:08:06,486 --> 03:08:09,806
That is no different at all than if it was shrunk by anyone else.

2212
03:08:10,205 --> 03:08:13,765
The miners can then undo the soft fork by just moving the block size back up.

2213
03:08:13,765 --> 03:08:24,965
But then it's just like it depends on your definition of like the soft fork of shrinking the block size next Tuesday only or shrinking the block size for all of the year 2025 or forever or whatever.

2214
03:08:25,606 --> 03:08:28,486
So even that is not there's no fundamental.

2215
03:08:29,005 --> 03:08:54,885
Thing to object to, well, because there is a consensus behind the soft fork, so if there is, I think the soft fork does not require consensus, that's the difference, the hard fork requires everyone to update, so it requires consensus of humans, the soft fork has the nodes, the software nodes are in consensus in which they all agree on the blockchain state.

2216
03:08:55,286 --> 03:08:57,525
Even though they don't all run the same rules.

2217
03:08:58,085 --> 03:09:04,085
So the word consensus is used maybe misleadingly in two almost opposite ways.

2218
03:09:04,965 --> 03:09:17,205
One way is the human way of every human agreeing that is the way that the soft fork is not consensus, the hard fork is requires everyone to upgrade if you do not run the Bitcoin Cash node.

2219
03:09:17,205 --> 03:09:47,125
If you run the Bitcoin Cash node, you will never see your BCH, and so you're not on the network unless you run, everyone, every single person on that network, they all agreed unanimously to run the Bitcoin Cash software, so that's the case, that's the sense, the human sense of consensus, the second set of the opposite sense where everyone's node is connected to the same longest blockchain network, and that's the one where everyone is doing slightly different things.

2220
03:09:47,686 --> 03:10:12,645
So how would it work with BIP300 as like a separate client, because at least just the way that I'm imagining it, if it's a separate client, and it includes BIP300 in it, more or less, the rest of the Bitcoin nodes that are not in consensus with that, they're not going to see that or notice that, they're just going to be on the core standard.

2221
03:10:13,606 --> 03:10:22,565
And then at the same time, for everyone who wants to get access to BIP300, they're going to have to run that updated node.

2222
03:10:24,965 --> 03:10:39,046
Yes, the people who want to run BIP300 and hold the miners accountable for following the BIP300 rules, they have to run the new client. And as with any soft fork, the 51% hash rate has to be running it. That's always been true.

2223
03:10:39,046 --> 03:10:44,166
Yeah, I think it's not true, but I don't know why they're doing that, because there's zero evidence for that.

2224
03:10:44,166 --> 03:11:00,726
I think you've got your work cut out for you, and that is basically building your own client. And I would just ask that you don't bash core in the process of building your own client. It's just not good marketing, because they have to be in sync with each other, or else it's a hard fork.

2225
03:11:01,046 --> 03:11:09,525
I was going to say, it's sort of a plug-in, in a way. You know what I mean? Is this making sense?

2226
03:11:09,525 --> 03:11:16,246
So you wouldn't code it from scratch in another language or something like that? You would just use core?

2227
03:11:16,325 --> 03:11:33,046
We would, but let me try to explain it like this. What we would do is, we would build something like, it would download and run Bitcoin Core.

2228
03:11:33,926 --> 03:11:48,885
But it would also run something else next to it. So it's kind of like, if you ran... what's the situation when people run different pieces of software at the same time on their computer, and they interact? This doesn't really happen that much anymore.

2229
03:11:49,606 --> 03:11:55,445
Maybe like a N64 emulator or something. I don't know.

2230
03:11:56,325 --> 03:12:04,885
I would say that... okay, I would say it's something like this. Okay, here's a good metaphor. I got one for you.

2231
03:12:06,565 --> 03:12:17,046
I'm saying, you have this car, and the car, for whatever reason, everyone has to use the same type of gasoline and the same engine.

2232
03:12:18,005 --> 03:12:29,125
But I'm like, this car sucks. It needs to have leather seats. It needs to have a radio. It needs to have a steering wheel. It needs to have mirrors. It needs to have air conditioning.

2233
03:12:30,005 --> 03:12:37,605
So what I'm going to do is, I'm just going to take the car, Bitcoin Core, and I'm going to put a bunch of stuff over it.

2234
03:12:38,485 --> 03:12:42,485
I'm going to put BIP300 seats over the car.

2235
03:12:43,525 --> 03:12:48,485
And under the hood, it will be Bitcoin Core, but I will have wrapped it up.

2236
03:12:48,485 --> 03:12:52,485
You're taking the engine out of the old car and basically...

2237
03:12:52,485 --> 03:12:56,485
I'm leaving it all in there. Everything there is still going to be there.

2238
03:12:57,365 --> 03:13:01,365
Maybe here's a different metaphor for you. I don't know. This is wacky metaphors with Paul's situation.

2239
03:13:01,365 --> 03:13:13,365
But sometimes people remodel their bathroom, and what they do is they just do one or two things, and they just put the new stuff right over the old stuff.

2240
03:13:13,365 --> 03:13:25,365
You have a really, really old chipped tiles, really, really old bathtub, and they sand a couple things out with a little thing, screwdriver.

2241
03:13:26,245 --> 03:13:34,245
They pull up the drain and stuff, and then they just put the stuff, the walls and everything, just right over the old bathroom.

2242
03:13:34,245 --> 03:13:46,245
So all the plumbing is the same, but now you have a jacuzzi, and you have a plasma screen TV in there. Whatever. I'm just making things up.

2243
03:13:47,125 --> 03:13:57,125
It will be Bitcoin Core under the hood, but it will be plus other things. It'll be an unmodified Bitcoin Core plus other software.

2244
03:13:57,125 --> 03:14:05,125
But the actual effect would be to marginalize Bitcoin Core and turn it into just a gear that spins, and something that mostly people ignore.

2245
03:14:07,125 --> 03:14:11,125
The front end will only display what the software wants it to display.

2246
03:14:12,005 --> 03:14:22,005
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it. The analogy is funny because I've remodeled a bathroom before, so I actually know all about it.

2247
03:14:22,005 --> 03:14:32,005
Yeah, I like the client idea. If you could do that, that would be awesome, because at the end of the day, it will stop all this beef.

2248
03:14:32,885 --> 03:14:40,885
This is from someone who does marketing, does sales. I know I'm on the tech side too, but specifically marketing and sales.

2249
03:14:40,885 --> 03:14:48,885
We've got to stop bashing each other in this ecosystem. You're always saying the negative stuff about lightning and everything like that.

2250
03:14:48,885 --> 03:14:58,885
I think it's better if you just focus on selling your idea and ignore everything else.

2251
03:14:58,885 --> 03:15:07,765
If you do it from the side of a client, you'll get more adoption. More people will get behind you and will support you.

2252
03:15:08,204 --> 03:15:14,204
And yeah, on record, all this is recorded for history.

2253
03:15:19,204 --> 03:15:25,204
The thing is, the problem is the scalability is that lightning doesn't scale.

2254
03:15:25,204 --> 03:15:30,204
But the people that criticize Polk don't use lightning.

2255
03:15:30,204 --> 03:15:34,204
They just store their Bitcoin.

2256
03:15:34,204 --> 03:15:43,204
When you're talking to someone who uses lightning, I have a decent understanding above the average of lightning.

2257
03:15:43,204 --> 03:15:48,204
And I look at everything as just different solutions and different solutions with different tradeoffs.

2258
03:15:48,204 --> 03:15:58,204
So it's like when we're beefing with each other in the Bitcoin ecosystem around little tiny things like, oh, lightning has this problem.

2259
03:15:58,204 --> 03:16:01,204
Liquid has this problem. RSK has this problem.

2260
03:16:01,204 --> 03:16:10,204
Instead, if we approach it from more of like a positive stance where it's like there's different tradeoffs at the end of the day and whatever these tradeoffs are, we'll be honest about them.

2261
03:16:10,204 --> 03:16:21,204
But we can't bash each other, especially when there's 10,000 other projects out there literally vying for the monetary value of Bitcoin.

2262
03:16:21,204 --> 03:16:28,204
So lightning is awesome. It has its own problems, but it also does some great things.

2263
03:16:28,204 --> 03:16:37,204
Like if you want to move funds and have instantaneous settlement with the assurances of Bitcoin, the asset, you get that with lightning.

2264
03:16:37,204 --> 03:16:42,204
And yes, I understand that you do. You depend on the miners and everything like that. But that's OK.

2265
03:16:43,204 --> 03:16:53,204
Also, I get your stance with BitVM that it's not perfect. It does similar to what you're looking to do with BIP300.

2266
03:16:53,204 --> 03:17:04,204
I get it. Everything has its tradeoffs, but at the end of the day, it's just about accepting them, building something and getting it to market and allowing people to utilize it.

2267
03:17:04,204 --> 03:17:13,204
At least with my goal, that's getting a billion people into Bitcoin. It just doesn't look good because people get confused and people already are confused.

2268
03:17:13,204 --> 03:17:19,204
They don't understand any of this stuff. So now when they're hearing, oh, lightning's not good, it's like, huh?

2269
03:17:19,204 --> 03:17:28,204
And then it's better that you build out this client, you get BIP300 active through your client and you start building up your ecosystem around that.

2270
03:17:29,204 --> 03:17:36,204
And then there's no beef there. You don't have people coming for your head from the lightning camp because what you're doing actually could benefit lightning.

2271
03:17:37,204 --> 03:17:48,204
So one of the things I like is I like how you can utilize lightning with liquid and the way that you're able to basically balance your channels utilizing liquid for a cheaper fee.

2272
03:17:48,204 --> 03:17:57,204
I know that you could build up a sidechain that's dedicated just to lightning. So, yeah, I see the benefits and everything like that.

2273
03:17:57,204 --> 03:18:04,204
I just don't think us having inner beef with each other really does us any good because it's not going to make us any more money.

2274
03:18:04,204 --> 03:18:09,204
And it's actually going to turn people off from understanding anything about the tech.

2275
03:18:10,204 --> 03:18:13,204
Well, I hear what you're saying, and I think there's a lot of truth to that.

2276
03:18:13,204 --> 03:18:21,204
But I also think that if we're not self-critical, then eventually we will form a weird cult and we will be like Theranos.

2277
03:18:21,204 --> 03:18:27,204
And then it will just point to an epic disaster down the road. And so we have to be self-critical.

2278
03:18:27,204 --> 03:18:36,204
And I just think that it's the lightning people who won't. They all know all this stuff is true.

2279
03:18:36,204 --> 03:18:42,204
And if people had spoken out against it earlier, it wouldn't have grown into this big thing, unfortunately.

2280
03:18:43,204 --> 03:18:58,204
Yeah, but if anyone read the Lightning Network white paper, then they would know that specifically it's not perfect, but it gets the job done for at least, I guess, 100 million people.

2281
03:18:58,204 --> 03:19:08,204
So we know 100 million people at least now, which we don't really have 100 million real Bitcoiners, but we know that we can onboard 100 million.

2282
03:19:08,204 --> 03:19:19,204
And if we can onboard them utilizing Lightning and then work out your solution in that midpoint, then specifically it's better for the ecosystem overall.

2283
03:19:19,204 --> 03:19:29,204
Because if we have 100 million self-sovereign Bitcoin users out of the entire globe of Bitcoin users, that's awesome.

2284
03:19:29,204 --> 03:19:34,204
And those same people, they would likely be open to utilizing your solution in the future.

2285
03:19:35,204 --> 03:19:45,204
It's just for me, I approach things from a human marketing stance, which most people don't understand marketing and realizing that is human relation is communication.

2286
03:19:45,204 --> 03:19:59,204
And if we're bashing each other's solutions, I get being honest and transparent, but that's like developers are probably some of the most honest and transparent people generally when it comes to like their solutions.

2287
03:19:59,204 --> 03:20:01,204
Let me ask you something.

2288
03:20:01,204 --> 03:20:02,204
Okay.

2289
03:20:02,204 --> 03:20:07,204
I agree with you with most of what you're saying, you know, come together or whatever.

2290
03:20:07,204 --> 03:20:24,204
But I have a problem when like I see the transparency, honesty, the knowledge, the experience when I read for drivechains and everything what Paul wrote and, you know, many, many years in the past.

2291
03:20:24,204 --> 03:20:32,204
So I have problem with the lightning saying, oh, this is the greatest innovation scaling L2, blah, blah, blah.

2292
03:20:32,204 --> 03:20:35,204
Do you know what is Bitcoin J?

2293
03:20:35,204 --> 03:20:37,204
Bitcoin J.

2294
03:20:37,204 --> 03:20:40,204
No, let me let me explain.

2295
03:20:40,204 --> 03:20:45,204
Bitcoin J is the tooling for creating Bitcoin channel.

2296
03:20:45,204 --> 03:20:53,204
So the lightning is nothing more than Bitcoin J channel or Bitcoin JS.

2297
03:20:53,204 --> 03:20:54,204
That's it.

2298
03:20:54,204 --> 03:21:02,204
So why they're marketing and I have problem with marketing in crypto and especially Bitcoin, because this is not place for marketing.

2299
03:21:02,204 --> 03:21:08,204
You know, if any business want to create a business with Bitcoin, yes, go in the real world.

2300
03:21:08,204 --> 03:21:13,204
Don't sell marketing on the people that are inside because it doesn't work.

2301
03:21:13,204 --> 03:21:15,204
People always lose money.

2302
03:21:15,204 --> 03:21:32,204
You know how many people I know personally, people that that's the money on lightning because the.

2303
03:21:32,204 --> 03:21:36,204
Yeah, I think we just lost him.

2304
03:21:36,204 --> 03:21:38,204
Oh, no. He's still up here.

2305
03:21:38,204 --> 03:21:41,204
Speaker, it says.

2306
03:21:41,204 --> 03:21:45,204
We can't hear you up. OK, he's now connecting.

2307
03:21:45,204 --> 03:21:48,204
He'll probably be back. Maybe, maybe not.

2308
03:21:48,204 --> 03:21:51,204
Yeah, well, we'll give him a little bit of time to come back.

2309
03:21:51,204 --> 03:21:53,204
I think the space is all right. He's a listener.

2310
03:21:53,204 --> 03:22:00,204
Now, I think it's if you can.

2311
03:22:00,204 --> 03:22:05,204
Yeah, well, we wait for him. I'm just going to like touch on one point.

2312
03:22:05,204 --> 03:22:07,204
Lightning is a protocol.

2313
03:22:07,204 --> 03:22:11,204
Just like I'm considering 300, a protocol.

2314
03:22:11,204 --> 03:22:16,204
Would you consider the protocol, Paul?

2315
03:22:16,204 --> 03:22:20,204
I would say that 300. So like it was SegWit.

2316
03:22:20,204 --> 03:22:27,204
That was a bit one forty one that like kind of basically enabled lightning, you know, speaking loosely.

2317
03:22:27,204 --> 03:22:36,204
And so 300 enables what you might call drivechain or side to L2 chains or sidechains.

2318
03:22:36,204 --> 03:22:39,204
So. So you see, that's a slight difference to see what I'm saying.

2319
03:22:39,204 --> 03:22:44,204
Like lightning was enabled by one forty one drivechains are enabled by 300 type of a thing.

2320
03:22:44,204 --> 03:22:48,204
Right. So, yeah, I'm kind of like lumping in drivechains with 300.

2321
03:22:48,204 --> 03:22:53,204
But yeah, totally. Totally. See where you're coming from on that resort.

2322
03:22:53,204 --> 03:22:56,204
Oh, all I'm saying is protocols are built by people.

2323
03:22:56,204 --> 03:23:01,204
And yet people, the people behind it may have an opinion about something.

2324
03:23:01,204 --> 03:23:05,204
But at the end of the day, the protocol doesn't have opinions.

2325
03:23:05,204 --> 03:23:12,204
It's just a protocol. So technically, tomorrow, I don't look at you as a scammer, Paul.

2326
03:23:12,204 --> 03:23:17,204
But tomorrow, somebody could use 300 and run a scam.

2327
03:23:17,204 --> 03:23:23,204
It doesn't mean that you're responsible for for that if a drivechain is used for a scam.

2328
03:23:23,204 --> 03:23:31,204
So I just I wanted to be very clear that the protocols are designed by people, but they're they don't have an opinion.

2329
03:23:31,204 --> 03:23:41,204
They're just there to be used. So instead of us bashing in the protocols and bashing the people behind the protocols, it's very specific.

2330
03:23:41,204 --> 03:23:49,204
We look at them and say, OK, how can we use this protocol for the mass adoption of Bitcoin and focus on that?

2331
03:23:49,204 --> 03:23:57,204
And that's the part where for me, it's like, OK, that's the interesting conversation when we're debating and we're saying, OK, this is the problem with lightning.

2332
03:23:57,204 --> 03:24:01,204
OK, I'm cool with that. Now I'm like, OK, what's the solution?

2333
03:24:01,204 --> 03:24:08,204
Let's get to the solutions with all of these problems, because if we're just going to talk about problems, then we're not going to get the adoption.

2334
03:24:08,204 --> 03:24:15,204
And people are going to be looking from the outside and saying, yeah, Bitcoiners, they have a whole bunch of problems, which, yeah, they do.

2335
03:24:15,204 --> 03:24:22,204
But realistically, that's not what we're selling people on. We're not selling people on on the problems that Bitcoiners have.

2336
03:24:22,204 --> 03:24:33,204
We're selling people on censorship resistant money that specifically can hopefully with these solutions that everyone is working on can scale.

2337
03:24:33,204 --> 03:24:39,204
If not, we have a solution that can get us to 100 million Bitcoiners self-sovereign.

2338
03:24:39,204 --> 03:24:48,204
And I wouldn't bash that if there's just 100 million self-sovereign Bitcoiners, because majority of the world today is not using self-sovereign solutions.

2339
03:24:48,204 --> 03:25:01,204
So if we have 100 million people using lightning and it becomes limited and stuck at that, it's not the most ideal thing in the world, but it's better than not having it.

2340
03:25:01,204 --> 03:25:06,204
I disagree. It's for me, lightning is not self-sovereign.

2341
03:25:06,204 --> 03:25:20,204
The only only thing that you only you control as a person and you have your coins outside of offline, not off chain, offline.

2342
03:25:20,204 --> 03:25:29,204
That's for me, you know, and the only the only way to do it is running a note, even when when drivechain will come is the same system.

2343
03:25:29,204 --> 03:25:37,204
Running a note is a P2P is decentralized, you know, and that's the best security because nobody can help you.

2344
03:25:37,204 --> 03:25:41,204
Nobody can take your coins, but you can run a note in lightning.

2345
03:25:41,204 --> 03:25:44,204
Like, I don't get what you're saying. Like, it's fundamentally wrong.

2346
03:25:44,204 --> 03:25:47,204
Yes, I know. I know. You can run a note.

2347
03:25:47,204 --> 03:25:56,204
But for you to have self-hostaging, you have to run a note online. And for the drivechains, you don't. That's the difference.

2348
03:25:56,204 --> 03:26:05,204
Drivechain node is more similar to a regular the lightning node.

2349
03:26:06,204 --> 03:26:12,204
It uses the same word, no, but really refers to a different thing.

2350
03:26:12,204 --> 03:26:18,204
I don't know if they thought naming it that would make it easier for people to understand or maybe.

2351
03:26:18,204 --> 03:26:25,204
Or maybe it was to blend in or and take advantage of the goodwill built up by the previous terminology.

2352
03:26:25,204 --> 03:26:32,204
I don't know. But I mean, I could tell all kinds of funny stories about these lightning nodes, too.

2353
03:26:32,204 --> 03:26:39,204
Also, like people like lots and lots of people don't know that in order to run the lightning node, you need a Bitcoin Core full node.

2354
03:26:39,204 --> 03:26:44,204
So I thought that was obvious.

2355
03:26:44,204 --> 03:26:49,204
And it's people like Tone Vase or something like got asked about that on camera.

2356
03:26:49,204 --> 03:26:52,204
And then he was like, what, like are on stage or something.

2357
03:26:52,204 --> 03:26:55,204
And I thought that I thought that was obvious, though, Paul.

2358
03:26:55,204 --> 03:27:00,204
I thought that was obvious that you had to like you need you need Bitcoin.

2359
03:27:00,204 --> 03:27:04,204
It's also a different type of thing. Like a node is enlightening.

2360
03:27:04,204 --> 03:27:11,204
The node is only affects you and another person, whereas in the sidechain node is more like a Bitcoin node where everyone gets the same sidechain blockchain.

2361
03:27:11,204 --> 03:27:19,204
Exactly. And then in the scenario where.

2362
03:27:19,204 --> 03:27:22,204
No, no, no, no.

2363
03:27:22,204 --> 03:27:25,204
It's not a global thing. That's that's all.

2364
03:27:25,204 --> 03:27:35,204
But you said that you said that you said that specifically lightning.

2365
03:27:35,204 --> 03:27:40,204
Technically, you were holding a global state between you and your channel participant.

2366
03:27:40,204 --> 03:27:43,204
But it's just it's just between you and your channel participants.

2367
03:27:43,204 --> 03:27:46,204
So I don't understand why that's not a node.

2368
03:27:46,204 --> 03:27:57,204
Well, I think the I think the idea with the node being peer to peer is like the phrase peer to peer doesn't mean a lot when it's only referring to two people.

2369
03:27:57,204 --> 03:28:01,204
Yeah. And the because it's like there's only two of you.

2370
03:28:01,204 --> 03:28:12,204
There's only two of you, so. That's why you have you have routing specifically, I can have a node with you.

2371
03:28:12,204 --> 03:28:16,204
I mean, not a node, a channel with you. You have a channel with someone else.

2372
03:28:16,204 --> 03:28:21,204
And basically we can route through our channels.

2373
03:28:21,204 --> 03:28:26,204
You can do anyway that with Bitcoin channel with the normal Bitcoin channel and it's free.

2374
03:28:26,204 --> 03:28:29,204
You don't need to have requirements to open a channel.

2375
03:28:29,204 --> 03:28:33,204
And by the way, on on light on lightning. Yeah.

2376
03:28:33,204 --> 03:28:39,204
Specifically for this building, for the scalability of lightning.

2377
03:28:39,204 --> 03:28:47,204
Yeah, you do. You do need that. You specifically do need to be able to move from from sending, for example, myself.

2378
03:28:47,204 --> 03:28:50,204
If I want to send to Paul, but I don't have a channel with Paul.

2379
03:28:50,204 --> 03:28:53,204
But let's say that David has a channel with Paul.

2380
03:28:53,204 --> 03:29:02,204
Me being able to send money through David to get to Paul, like you, you do need that.

2381
03:29:02,204 --> 03:29:06,204
Yeah, you need. But you can do anyways with Bitcoin channel.

2382
03:29:06,204 --> 03:29:11,204
You don't need lightning. Yeah, but specifically is cheaper.

2383
03:29:11,204 --> 03:29:14,204
No, it's not cheaper. Like, do you understand what is Bitcoin channel?

2384
03:29:14,204 --> 03:29:21,204
Bitcoin channel is when you're on your note, you extending, you're creating off chain server.

2385
03:29:21,204 --> 03:29:27,204
So that off chain server is a channel between yourself.

2386
03:29:27,204 --> 03:29:35,204
Or you can you cannot users, you know, or whatever, or you can receive just just payments in the channel.

2387
03:29:35,204 --> 03:29:43,204
Why that is invented. So in the future, when the transactions come expensive, so the business can can operate.

2388
03:29:43,204 --> 03:29:49,204
Because if you have a shop and you you receive Bitcoin, you know, or you need to send or transact whatever,

2389
03:29:49,204 --> 03:29:55,204
you will not go on on main chain all the time in a high fee environment.

2390
03:29:55,204 --> 03:29:59,204
So you open a channel and you receive that one.

2391
03:29:59,204 --> 03:30:06,204
When you finish whatever you're doing, you're closing the channel, the the and you're paying one transaction fee.

2392
03:30:06,204 --> 03:30:14,204
That's it. You know, in lightning, the idea is that in lightning, at least just from my understanding, my context of lightning,

2393
03:30:14,204 --> 03:30:20,204
at least if it for for mass adoption of it, realistically, you don't want channel closes.

2394
03:30:20,204 --> 03:30:28,204
And realistically, if we're looking at the high fee, the high fee range that people are dealing in these days,

2395
03:30:28,204 --> 03:30:33,204
basically at the end of the day, we're all going to end up.

2396
03:30:33,204 --> 03:30:38,204
Why? Why? Why? Why? I don't understand why.

2397
03:30:38,204 --> 03:30:42,204
I don't need to. Why is not good to close the channel?

2398
03:30:42,204 --> 03:30:50,204
If I have a working day and I'm closing my working day, I close the channel and I open in the morning.

2399
03:30:50,204 --> 03:30:54,204
You don't need to do that. At least you.

2400
03:30:54,204 --> 03:30:59,204
OK, first and foremost, we have different perspectives, so I'm just going to respect your perspective.

2401
03:30:59,204 --> 03:31:06,204
And at the same time, I'm going to say mine. Yeah, Bitcoin main chain.

2402
03:31:06,204 --> 03:31:10,204
Bitcoin main chain specifically has transaction fees.

2403
03:31:10,204 --> 03:31:16,204
Those transaction fees in a high fee rate is like it's too much for a majority of people.

2404
03:31:16,204 --> 03:31:24,204
So majority of people are not going to be transacting on Bitcoin main chain because they're going to be priced out of main chain.

2405
03:31:24,204 --> 03:31:37,204
So L2s and sidechain are specifically sidechains are specifically supposed to subsidize that and allow people to operate with Bitcoin on additional layers at a cheaper fee.

2406
03:31:38,204 --> 03:31:41,204
So we're opening up a channel and lightning basically.

2407
03:31:41,204 --> 03:31:45,204
Yeah, you hold on. I'm almost done.

2408
03:31:45,204 --> 03:31:52,204
You need to say that you need to say it's a less security, decentralized security, less decentralized security.

2409
03:31:52,204 --> 03:32:01,204
Well, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Because drivechains today do not exist.

2410
03:32:01,204 --> 03:32:04,204
We don't have drivechains and on me.

2411
03:32:04,204 --> 03:32:09,204
So I just want you to try the test net of drivechain.

2412
03:32:09,204 --> 03:32:13,204
I've not I've not tried it. Please do it.

2413
03:32:13,204 --> 03:32:20,204
Please do it. I'll definitely I'll definitely if anyone wants to, you know, walk me through that process and everything.

2414
03:32:20,204 --> 03:32:25,204
Just go to change the info releases. Download the.

2415
03:32:25,204 --> 03:32:30,204
What was the not the test? But I've met. It's a five minutes.

2416
03:32:30,204 --> 03:32:37,204
Just download and run. That's it. Definitely. Definitely. Definitely. I'm just saying it's not.

2417
03:32:37,204 --> 03:32:43,204
It's not on mainnet today. So we've got to be honest with ourselves. If it was on mainnet.

2418
03:32:43,204 --> 03:32:49,204
No, it doesn't matter because if it was on mainnet. Even lightning is not on mainnet.

2419
03:32:49,204 --> 03:32:57,204
No, lightning is on mainnet. You can transact. You can transact lightning.

2420
03:32:57,204 --> 03:33:04,204
Real Bitcoin. You can transact today. Real Bitcoin on lightning. And I'm not saying that to bash drivechains.

2421
03:33:04,204 --> 03:33:09,204
I'm just saying that's a fact. I can't use real Bitcoin to transact.

2422
03:33:09,204 --> 03:33:18,204
I can transact any second of the day when I open my Bitcoin channel is a real Bitcoin.

2423
03:33:18,204 --> 03:33:31,204
I hear what you're saying. I don't even know what this conversation is about anymore.

2424
03:33:31,204 --> 03:33:41,204
But I agree that it's true that. Drivechains don't exist on BTC right now.

2425
03:33:42,204 --> 03:33:47,204
Whereas lightning does. But I don't know. I think we've gotten pretty far away from ZK rollups and Super Testnet.

2426
03:33:47,204 --> 03:33:57,204
So I don't know if. We should. We can certainly continue this space if you want, but.

2427
03:33:57,204 --> 03:34:05,204
Maybe we should wrap it up, I think. You've got my support with the new client.

2428
03:34:05,204 --> 03:34:17,204
Make your last points, Paul. Say what you think about it and what's the perspective between BitVM and ZK rollups.

2429
03:34:17,204 --> 03:34:22,204
Again, I think the whole thing about not needing a soft fork, that is just a mistake.

2430
03:34:22,204 --> 03:34:29,204
There's no other way of putting it, unfortunately. And as much as I would like to, I would prefer I'd be more popular if I could put it a different way.

2431
03:34:29,204 --> 03:34:33,204
But it's just not the it's just not reality. It's just that it's the whole thing is irrational.

2432
03:34:33,204 --> 03:34:41,204
There is no difference between a pull request to Bitcoin Core and some other soft, a soft fork pull request to Bitcoin Core and some other pull requests.

2433
03:34:41,204 --> 03:34:51,204
There's no difference. If that was the fact, Paul, specifically, you would already have BIP300 in Bitcoin Core today.

2434
03:34:52,865 --> 03:35:02,665
It's the opposite of that. If the opposite were the truth, then people just wouldn't care about merging soft forks and BIP300 and 119 and all these other things would already be in Bitcoin Core today.

2435
03:35:02,665 --> 03:35:09,584
The only reason they're not in today is because for some reason, people care a lot about whether or not something is a soft fork.

2436
03:35:10,065 --> 03:35:14,025
And so they won't they won't merge it into Bitcoin Core.

2437
03:35:14,025 --> 03:35:16,625
People care if it's a soft fork or if it's a hard fork.

2438
03:35:16,664 --> 03:35:18,545
It's either way. People care.

2439
03:35:19,105 --> 03:35:21,265
People care about Bitcoin and their money.

2440
03:35:21,504 --> 03:35:26,784
And I think that my suggestion is that is the whole thing is irrational.

2441
03:35:26,784 --> 03:35:30,464
There's no difference between caring about that type of thing and some other thing.

2442
03:35:30,865 --> 03:35:33,464
So but yeah, we're making this client.

2443
03:35:33,504 --> 03:35:37,784
We have a new version of the testnet, new version of the launcher that should be coming out.

2444
03:35:38,945 --> 03:35:43,304
Probably I'll finish it like right before Super Bowl on Sunday.

2445
03:35:43,304 --> 03:35:46,105
So on Monday, everyone can maybe download it.

2446
03:35:46,225 --> 03:35:50,745
Check it out. Is this going to be a mainnet client or a testnet client?

2447
03:35:51,705 --> 03:35:58,865
No, this testnet would play fake Bitcoin, but you'll be able to see everything that it would do if it was on Bitcoin.

2448
03:36:02,865 --> 03:36:13,064
The client that installs all the jacuzzi over the old bathtub plumbing that I don't know when that'll be done,

2449
03:36:13,064 --> 03:36:14,985
but I don't think it will take that much longer.

2450
03:36:15,665 --> 03:36:20,824
It will probably be done by, I don't know, February 15th, maybe.

2451
03:36:20,824 --> 03:36:22,025
I don't know. Maybe next.

2452
03:36:22,865 --> 03:36:25,185
I don't know. I should really say like end of February or something.

2453
03:36:25,225 --> 03:36:26,784
So then what that will be is.

2454
03:36:27,025 --> 03:36:31,545
I really want to see that because the time frames don't sound realistic.

2455
03:36:31,545 --> 03:36:34,744
But why would you say that?

2456
03:36:34,744 --> 03:36:43,025
Because at least from my humble understanding of building clients that I've never built before, it takes a little bit of time to do that.

2457
03:36:43,025 --> 03:36:45,985
Like everyone dreams of having a second client.

2458
03:36:45,985 --> 03:36:53,104
And I know Bitcoin has multiple clients, but specifically everyone dreams of having a client and then for it to be successful.

2459
03:36:53,104 --> 03:37:03,665
So yeah, I don't think anyone has tried to build anything like what I just described, where I mean, they have stuff like Bitcoin Knots, which is like rewrite everything from scratch.

2460
03:37:04,105 --> 03:37:05,185
But that's not what this is.

2461
03:37:05,185 --> 03:37:08,504
As I just explained, this is just something that we put over the whole thing.

2462
03:37:09,105 --> 03:37:15,825
So it will still the only thing it will do is check the BIP300 rules and then it will invalidate the block if any of those rules are broken.

2463
03:37:15,865 --> 03:37:17,585
So I'm looking forward to that.

2464
03:37:18,385 --> 03:37:20,185
Do you have any miners who are going to run it?

2465
03:37:23,185 --> 03:37:24,784
Well, I don't know if they'll run that.

2466
03:37:24,784 --> 03:37:26,544
I have a lot of miners who are supportive.

2467
03:37:26,544 --> 03:37:28,144
I mean, I would hope that they would.

2468
03:37:28,945 --> 03:37:29,825
I don't know that.

2469
03:37:29,825 --> 03:37:35,225
Miners are financially incentive to run the software.

2470
03:37:35,264 --> 03:37:38,704
That's the point of Bitcoin, the incentives, I think.

2471
03:37:40,344 --> 03:37:44,784
I think they won't, you know, they obviously won't run it like as soon as it comes out.

2472
03:37:45,344 --> 03:37:51,624
This is part of having the testnet and even having the spaces and stuff is just like they have to understand like what.

2473
03:37:54,825 --> 03:37:57,424
Excuse me, they have to understand like what is going on.

2474
03:37:57,825 --> 03:38:01,264
I think the miners are very uninformed overall.

2475
03:38:02,704 --> 03:38:03,984
Yeah, actually, I would agree.

2476
03:38:05,825 --> 03:38:11,344
So I think that they don't know what they're doing and they don't know what's in their own best interest.

2477
03:38:12,784 --> 03:38:16,064
And I think it may even be the case that.

2478
03:38:17,784 --> 03:38:24,504
That is a big problem with Bitcoin, I don't know, I think that if they don't, if.

2479
03:38:25,825 --> 03:38:29,144
But you see, the thing is, right now, there's nothing for miners to run at all.

2480
03:38:29,185 --> 03:38:31,064
So there's no reason for them to even look into it.

2481
03:38:31,105 --> 03:38:41,465
Yeah, even though, even as I've just said, they could make one hundred, one hundred and ten billion dollars in a year, every year, doubling every five, six years.

2482
03:38:41,945 --> 03:38:45,945
They don't they don't really it's like they're going to switch from Bitcoin Core to something else.

2483
03:38:46,305 --> 03:38:50,385
But they would switch from Bitcoin Core to this because this is just something that drives Bitcoin Core.

2484
03:38:50,424 --> 03:38:52,825
You know what I mean? This is not a rewrite of the client.

2485
03:38:52,904 --> 03:38:54,825
This is just something installed over.

2486
03:38:55,825 --> 03:39:01,825
Over the you know what I mean, it's it's not redoing the it's just putting something new bathroom over the old bathroom.

2487
03:39:02,544 --> 03:39:05,064
It is not like redoing all the pipes in the ground.

2488
03:39:05,105 --> 03:39:18,984
I think that if you collaborate with, for example, let's say Ruben, a few other people like, you know, get the I forget what's what's this project called?

2489
03:39:19,104 --> 03:39:24,345
Um, the the Z sync or whatever, I forget his sorry, bro.

2490
03:39:24,345 --> 03:39:25,785
I'm killing you in the project.

2491
03:39:25,785 --> 03:39:29,185
My mom in line says zero zero.

2492
03:39:29,544 --> 03:39:36,944
Exactly. If you work with collaborate with him on the zero sink, he wants to get a ZKP into Bitcoin.

2493
03:39:36,944 --> 03:39:39,065
Like if you if you collaborate with most.

2494
03:39:39,104 --> 03:39:42,104
Yeah, but I've already explained why that I've already explained why that doesn't do anything.

2495
03:39:42,104 --> 03:39:46,384
Yeah. But what I'm saying is if you're going to do a soft fork or not a soft fork.

2496
03:39:46,505 --> 03:39:49,745
I'm not saying I'm not saying not a soft force.

2497
03:39:49,824 --> 03:39:51,345
You're going to do a new client.

2498
03:39:51,505 --> 03:39:52,104
Okay.

2499
03:39:52,505 --> 03:39:59,065
That new client is going to include things which are the equivalent of a soft fork for Bitcoin.

2500
03:40:00,065 --> 03:40:12,384
So if you want to, you know, play 3D chess and partner with people who specifically want certain things in Bitcoin, then specifically you do all of it with everyone.

2501
03:40:12,544 --> 03:40:15,065
You get the stuff that you want into this new client.

2502
03:40:15,345 --> 03:40:19,224
Now you've got a whole bunch of people who are going to be behind this client.

2503
03:40:19,224 --> 03:40:22,144
Now you get all these communities behind that client.

2504
03:40:22,465 --> 03:40:27,865
And now, you know, I think the client will not only have the 300, but probably I would probably do like a Utrecht.

2505
03:40:27,865 --> 03:40:29,905
So I'll do like.

2506
03:40:31,585 --> 03:40:39,625
So you basically get every what everybody wants, as long as you know, it's practical into this new client.

2507
03:40:39,905 --> 03:40:46,944
And now you've got you bootstrapped your entire ecosystem of people who would be interested in running the client and support you on this.

2508
03:40:47,305 --> 03:40:48,185
And yeah, it would be.

2509
03:40:48,585 --> 03:40:50,704
Yeah, lots of this is what I want to do.

2510
03:40:50,704 --> 03:40:54,185
It's just a lot like the launcher, like Bitcoin has seen to have the launcher.

2511
03:40:54,345 --> 03:40:59,585
See what this idea does is horizontally kind of what the launcher would do vertically.

2512
03:40:59,585 --> 03:41:01,264
So we just have like a bunch of plug ins.

2513
03:41:01,264 --> 03:41:04,544
You have a Bitcoin Core and then you have like a bunch of stuff to the side.

2514
03:41:04,585 --> 03:41:07,664
Like, do you want to add the 300 part?

2515
03:41:07,664 --> 03:41:10,505
Do you want to add the Utrecht part?

2516
03:41:10,984 --> 03:41:17,704
So and if this is successful, then Bitcoin Core will be totally irrelevant.

2517
03:41:17,704 --> 03:41:24,065
And anyone who does pull requests there or even any new versions that come out will have basically no effect on anything.

2518
03:41:24,065 --> 03:41:34,785
And it will only be stuff in the optional plug ins that are all modular and non-interactive.

2519
03:41:35,745 --> 03:41:36,664
That would be the key.

2520
03:41:37,144 --> 03:41:38,384
Those will be what matters.

2521
03:41:38,384 --> 03:41:40,585
And that but I plan on doing that anyway.

2522
03:41:40,585 --> 03:41:41,745
But I don't I don't know why.

2523
03:41:41,745 --> 03:41:45,505
Why would I partner with with Robin before I have it finished?

2524
03:41:45,505 --> 03:41:46,824
I'd rather just finish it first.

2525
03:41:47,224 --> 03:41:52,544
And it will not be that hard because all it does is the BIP300 rules and then throws invalidate block.

2526
03:41:52,704 --> 03:41:55,544
So, I mean, everything everything is obviously harder than you think.

2527
03:41:55,544 --> 03:42:04,585
But yeah, I think I think I think it's probably the I don't want to say ego, but that's probably the best word.

2528
03:42:04,745 --> 03:42:11,065
I think if smart people get together and do smart things together, you get smart results.

2529
03:42:11,305 --> 03:42:16,585
If one smart person just does a smart thing by himself, yeah, he could get a smart result by himself.

2530
03:42:16,865 --> 03:42:23,505
But breaking things down, if you have people behind you, because the biggest thing is this.

2531
03:42:23,505 --> 03:42:26,544
If you don't have the people behind you, I don't care what you develop.

2532
03:42:26,585 --> 03:42:37,224
At the end of the day, you could develop the world's next best thing that could, you know, make BIP-110,000 times faster, more secure.

2533
03:42:37,264 --> 03:42:39,745
If you don't get people behind you, it doesn't matter.

2534
03:42:39,984 --> 03:42:43,905
So at the end of the day, working with others, collaborating with others.

2535
03:42:45,544 --> 03:42:50,025
A lot of times other people are like bad for adoption.

2536
03:42:50,824 --> 03:42:51,785
Like, it's not good.

2537
03:42:51,824 --> 03:42:53,144
We have to have quality control.

2538
03:42:53,345 --> 03:43:00,305
We don't want like we don't want the zero sync, because zero sync is a ton of work for doing nothing.

2539
03:43:00,585 --> 03:43:01,745
It doesn't do anything.

2540
03:43:01,785 --> 03:43:03,185
Did you even listen to what I said?

2541
03:43:03,185 --> 03:43:10,824
I there's no scenario where people download SPV chain and it ends up being wrong.

2542
03:43:12,505 --> 03:43:13,704
It's never happened.

2543
03:43:13,704 --> 03:43:19,465
So this is just going to be taking up space, because someone really smart worked on it.

2544
03:43:19,465 --> 03:43:21,144
We should this is just communism.

2545
03:43:21,465 --> 03:43:25,784
And it's not communism at the end of the day, and that's going to be what will kill the project.

2546
03:43:25,784 --> 03:43:26,865
It's not communism.

2547
03:43:26,904 --> 03:43:29,664
It's good capitalism, good capitalism.

2548
03:43:29,745 --> 03:43:31,344
No, it's caring about the worker.

2549
03:43:31,385 --> 03:43:32,145
No, it's not.

2550
03:43:33,385 --> 03:43:37,104
It's not caring about the worker because you're the worker.

2551
03:43:38,224 --> 03:43:43,145
Like, I think all every everyone who's coming up with the ideas and applying the ideas, they're the worker.

2552
03:43:43,185 --> 03:43:51,024
So at the end of the day, like you could say fuck the worker, but you're basically saying fuck yourself because you're the one who's putting all this work and everything like that.

2553
03:43:51,265 --> 03:43:54,904
And what I certainly come after, I certainly come after the customer.

2554
03:43:55,344 --> 03:43:57,544
Yeah, the customer is definitely first.

2555
03:43:58,065 --> 03:44:01,865
I'm just saying at the end of the day, everyone has different customers.

2556
03:44:01,945 --> 03:44:12,464
The zero sync people have some customers, the liquid people have some customers, the RSK guys got some customers, the lightning people have some customers, the drivechain people have some customers.

2557
03:44:12,664 --> 03:44:19,344
If we all come together specifically, and this may sound very hippie dippy, but it's very practical.

2558
03:44:20,104 --> 03:44:24,984
If we come together, we get more adoption, we get we get things done faster.

2559
03:44:25,024 --> 03:44:31,825
If we're all beefing with each other and we have to look over each other's backs and everything like that, then we're not getting what we want.

2560
03:44:31,984 --> 03:44:44,544
And this is why I'm saying at the end of the day, I saw your your thing that you were on your own one of these programs and you had to like grade like all the other projects and everything like that.

2561
03:44:44,984 --> 03:44:52,265
And realistically, for me, like if I'm in that same position, I'm not going to bash all the other projects.

2562
03:44:52,344 --> 03:44:59,065
I'm about to use every last bit of that time to get my project out to the world and I'm about to make it the best.

2563
03:44:59,305 --> 03:45:01,865
And that's just like good business.

2564
03:45:01,865 --> 03:45:09,945
Good business is you focus on specific what you do the best, you put out to the world, you collaborate with others to get it out further into the world.

2565
03:45:10,224 --> 03:45:18,664
But bashing each other, it's just like from the outside looking in, it looks like, you know, those unorganized Bitcoiners that don't know what they're doing.

2566
03:45:19,145 --> 03:45:21,344
And yeah, sure.

2567
03:45:21,385 --> 03:45:22,584
I mean, let me ask you this, though.

2568
03:45:22,584 --> 03:45:23,904
Is there anything you wouldn't bash?

2569
03:45:23,984 --> 03:45:27,984
Like what if a Jamie Dimon came in and he said, we need to make it on KYC?

2570
03:45:28,265 --> 03:45:29,464
But that's Bitcoin.

2571
03:45:29,625 --> 03:45:35,385
But Michael Saylor is already a very, you know, staunch advocate of KYC and those things.

2572
03:45:35,385 --> 03:45:36,625
He's not anti and he's not.

2573
03:45:37,104 --> 03:45:40,664
So would you bash would you bash Michael Saylor under any circumstance?

2574
03:45:41,265 --> 03:45:46,424
Specifically, I don't think I don't think it's good business bashing anyone.

2575
03:45:46,424 --> 03:45:48,865
I just think it's specifically being straightforward.

2576
03:45:49,145 --> 03:45:50,065
So there's no one.

2577
03:45:50,065 --> 03:45:52,344
I mean, there's no one you wouldn't bash, right?

2578
03:45:53,224 --> 03:45:56,705
Come on. If we're going to like, if we have to bash someone.

2579
03:45:56,745 --> 03:45:58,424
I mean, yeah, of course.

2580
03:45:59,185 --> 03:46:00,104
You bash Prager, right?

2581
03:46:00,104 --> 03:46:00,984
You bash everyone.

2582
03:46:00,984 --> 03:46:02,385
We bash Adolf Hitler.

2583
03:46:02,385 --> 03:46:04,544
That's yeah.

2584
03:46:04,544 --> 03:46:16,224
But realistically, realistically, probably Michael Saylor would probably be the biggest advocate of drivechains if he understood it from your sense, because he's not anti ordinals.

2585
03:46:16,224 --> 03:46:24,305
He's actually, at least from what I've observed, he's actually like pro tokenization and all these type of things.

2586
03:46:24,825 --> 03:46:28,145
So Michael Saylor understand Bitcoin.

2587
03:46:28,185 --> 03:46:29,104
I mean, come on.

2588
03:46:29,104 --> 03:46:30,584
He came in 2020.

2589
03:46:30,745 --> 03:46:31,784
He's a newbie guy.

2590
03:46:32,104 --> 03:46:35,265
He in 2013, he was saying Bitcoin is a scam.

2591
03:46:35,464 --> 03:46:42,945
When I was buying that newbie stack, that newbie stack is definitely positioning him in the right position.

2592
03:46:42,945 --> 03:46:44,224
So much money.

2593
03:46:44,224 --> 03:46:46,625
Do not we're lucky.

2594
03:46:46,664 --> 03:46:48,745
We're lucky. Bitcoin is not proof of stake.

2595
03:46:49,224 --> 03:46:50,145
That's all I got to say.

2596
03:46:50,145 --> 03:46:53,625
Yeah. First of all, money do not create good technology.

2597
03:46:53,904 --> 03:46:57,265
And secondly, you cannot make business with technology.

2598
03:46:57,424 --> 03:46:59,424
You make business on top of the technology.

2599
03:46:59,424 --> 03:47:02,104
You use technology to create businesses.

2600
03:47:02,344 --> 03:47:15,745
OK. What do you guys think about the QAC miners and Foundry and Antpool with more than 51% hash rate?

2601
03:47:16,945 --> 03:47:29,104
Are you worried about 51% hash rate coalition specifically or are them two specifically because of because Foundry is just KYC and Antpool has like a lot of like

2602
03:47:29,424 --> 03:47:32,904
firmware lock in, like vertical integration.

2603
03:47:33,224 --> 03:47:34,904
Those are the normal things that people worry about.

2604
03:47:34,904 --> 03:47:36,664
Which thing in particular are you worried about?

2605
03:47:39,705 --> 03:47:51,625
I'm worried about because, for example, United States just came with a new information that they have to ask about all the miners what they're doing and how much

2606
03:47:51,984 --> 03:47:54,945
machines they have, how much hash rate, how much power.

2607
03:47:55,145 --> 03:48:08,625
So if they are KYC and everyone that's connected to the pool of Foundry is KYC, all the coins are KYC from the beginning and it's bad for Bitcoin because traceability of the

2608
03:48:08,625 --> 03:48:10,265
government regulations.

2609
03:48:10,705 --> 03:48:22,984
And I think people should run a bit taxis or something like centralized mining more is even good for your project because people say that mine is centralized.

2610
03:48:23,145 --> 03:48:29,584
I think on this point is centralized of KYC and the prosecution of the government.

2611
03:48:30,024 --> 03:48:47,904
The thing is, I don't think it's United States will not comply in China together to make Antpool and Foundry, they together try to attack Bitcoin.

2612
03:48:47,945 --> 03:48:50,625
Now, it may happen, probably will happen.

2613
03:48:51,344 --> 03:48:58,544
But the thing is, China and the United States, Antpool is in China, Foundry is in the United States.

2614
03:48:58,544 --> 03:49:01,544
So my problem is that I hear all the people speaking.

2615
03:49:04,344 --> 03:49:07,385
Yes, can't you hear John B-15?

2616
03:49:07,945 --> 03:49:09,065
He's been speaking this whole time.

2617
03:49:10,185 --> 03:49:12,825
Anyway, let me try to answer this about the KYC.

2618
03:49:12,865 --> 03:49:15,024
So why this Foundry KYC?

2619
03:49:15,745 --> 03:49:19,265
Do you know? The answer is because they have commingling of funds.

2620
03:49:19,385 --> 03:49:30,385
So when you individual miner like Marathon, they want to go, everyone wants to go public because you can get more money that way.

2621
03:49:31,505 --> 03:49:39,424
You go public and it's like launching an ICO, you just get tons of cash and then you're the king and you choose how this cash is spent.

2622
03:49:39,424 --> 03:49:45,024
And if there's a corporate retreat to like Bora Bora or something, then that's just how it is.

2623
03:49:45,464 --> 03:49:52,505
So what they do is they have this system with people want to go public.

2624
03:49:53,104 --> 03:49:59,224
The US system is, you know, it has a lot of carrots and sticks to keep everyone compliant.

2625
03:49:59,265 --> 03:50:06,464
So one of the sticks is prison, but one and fines and one of the carrots is the capital markets.

2626
03:50:06,464 --> 03:50:08,464
So they want to lure everyone, everyone wants to go public.

2627
03:50:09,024 --> 03:50:12,984
If the miners go public, they have to produce all these reports, these SOC reports.

2628
03:50:13,265 --> 03:50:19,505
You know, something in control, I don't know, system of control, something like that, blah, blah, blah, whatever.

2629
03:50:19,945 --> 03:50:38,945
And so they they need to know like where all the money is and how how do they know that they're not being like screwed and that someone's money isn't, you know, grandma, grandma who went on CNBC and she saw Jim Cramer recommend this company that they're not stealing the money.

2630
03:50:39,904 --> 03:50:41,344
They're not like embezzling the money.

2631
03:50:42,305 --> 03:50:49,104
So like someone like Marathon, they want to go public or like one of the people who mines at Foundry, they want to go public.

2632
03:50:50,625 --> 03:50:54,424
They need Foundry to be have all this auditable stuff.

2633
03:50:56,065 --> 03:51:01,584
And the auditors won't touch it unless everyone is they need to know like how to find everyone and kind of call them on the phone.

2634
03:51:01,584 --> 03:51:02,625
Who are all these people?

2635
03:51:02,945 --> 03:51:04,344
Because it's otherwise it's shady.

2636
03:51:04,344 --> 03:51:13,265
It looks it doesn't look good because you say, oh, we have 10 million dollars here with Joe Schmo.

2637
03:51:14,544 --> 03:51:17,784
So this all this is happening because.

2638
03:51:20,544 --> 03:51:21,984
The end miner has a very.

2639
03:51:23,865 --> 03:51:29,625
It's because we have the problem of the pools are not easy to.

2640
03:51:29,625 --> 03:51:35,145
The pools do not have a very the pools have kind of a long term relationship with the hashes, which is bad.

2641
03:51:35,625 --> 03:51:38,664
We want everyone to have a short term relationship with lots of turnover.

2642
03:51:39,385 --> 03:51:46,584
But the pools, you know, you mine at a pool and then they don't pay you out every block as Luke Dashjr. wanted to have happen.

2643
03:51:47,945 --> 03:51:50,984
That would have been the desirable thing, but it didn't happen.

2644
03:51:51,865 --> 03:51:54,424
They failed to achieve it technologically.

2645
03:51:54,984 --> 03:51:57,505
They failed to achieve it technologically.

2646
03:51:57,704 --> 03:52:06,304
Now, ironically, a BIP300 would solve this problem because you could pay people out on thunder paper share and you just pay people out every 10 minutes and settle up.

2647
03:52:06,665 --> 03:52:07,745
And this would solve this problem.

2648
03:52:07,745 --> 03:52:17,464
All these problems would be solved instantly because every mining pool would have to do this and it would just you'd be you'd settle up every 10 minutes and then there'd be no commingling of funds.

2649
03:52:17,464 --> 03:52:21,545
There would be no need to like if you wanted to go public as a miner.

2650
03:52:22,505 --> 03:52:23,505
You would just.

2651
03:52:24,745 --> 03:52:39,025
That your relationship with the pool would be like your relationship with, you know, the Uber Eats guy who comes every day or something where it's like you just pay them, they give you the product deal is over, you know, you wouldn't have like a bunch of money like warehouse there.

2652
03:52:40,025 --> 03:52:58,224
Now, but as I said, the fundamental problem is slightly different than that, which is that the miners themselves want to go public, obviously, when they go public, then they're KYC at the wazoo, of course, and you can just get more money being going public and being KYC than you can without.

2653
03:52:58,224 --> 03:53:02,625
And so that's just the reality of mining is that whatever whatever gets you the most money you kind of have to do.

2654
03:53:03,505 --> 03:53:14,785
Now, the issue is eventually it will be like some scales, you know, they'll have to weigh the way the two issues and what am I talking about?

2655
03:53:15,265 --> 03:53:21,385
They have to weigh how nice is it to be KYC and go public like your marathon?

2656
03:53:22,385 --> 03:53:38,385
That's one weight and you weigh that against how annoying is it to comply with all of these insane, you know, congressmen, journalists, whatever, asking you to register and asking you like how much CO2 you emit, blah, blah, blah.

2657
03:53:38,385 --> 03:53:50,385
So they'll weigh that and then, you know, we'll just the chips will fall where they may as the saying goes, you know, they'll just see like some people will decide this and some people will decide that.

2658
03:53:50,385 --> 03:53:54,385
Does that make some sense? Is this making any sense?

2659
03:53:54,385 --> 03:54:04,385
So, like, if they KYC and they say you have to do all this stuff that loses you a ton of money, then I think all those miners will just declare bankruptcy.

2660
03:54:04,385 --> 03:54:10,385
They'll move or they'll just, you know, they won't really physically move to a different jurisdiction.

2661
03:54:11,385 --> 03:54:15,385
So I think that that problem will fix itself, even though it is a problem.

2662
03:54:15,385 --> 03:54:22,385
And BIP300 would ironically just would solve like 80% of the problem, but not all of it.

2663
03:54:23,385 --> 03:54:29,385
But I would like to also say that the one interesting thing is that.

2664
03:54:30,385 --> 03:54:35,385
You the government will always be able to do something like this, they'll always be able to say, listen, we'll pay you.

2665
03:54:36,385 --> 03:54:44,385
Anyone who minds will pay you a million dollars a year if you just register with us, you know, and then that would be very enticing.

2666
03:54:44,385 --> 03:54:50,385
So then then they can get everyone to register and then swoop in and try.

2667
03:54:50,385 --> 03:54:56,385
But, you know, that only works for as long as you're willing to as well as long as the benefits outweigh the costs.

2668
03:55:00,329 --> 03:55:06,329
Yeah, that's the thing, that's the centralization of the pools is a problem.

2669
03:55:08,329 --> 03:55:16,329
What do you think about BitTaxi is the new mining open source hardware project?

2670
03:55:18,329 --> 03:55:24,329
I'm not familiar with it. What is it called again? Maybe I am familiar with it and I didn't recognize what you said.

2671
03:55:25,329 --> 03:55:33,329
I'll put on the nest up there, but it's BitTaxi. I don't know if I'm pronouncing it correctly.

2672
03:55:35,329 --> 03:55:44,329
But it's just like. Raspberry Pi for mining, but it's mining great, so I don't know.

2673
03:55:45,329 --> 03:55:52,329
Yeah, I think mining will take place on many different scales, including some that are small, some that are very large.

2674
03:55:53,329 --> 03:56:04,329
I think it's not a great idea to fixate too much on how mining should look. You know what I mean?

2675
03:56:05,329 --> 03:56:13,329
It's like everyone just let the mining just happen wherever it wants. It's not going to be a big deal.

2676
03:56:14,329 --> 03:56:26,329
I guess it does affect who will join which pool because there's a lot to be said about the certain types of weird mining pool attacks that are very obscure and block withholding and whatnot.

2677
03:56:27,329 --> 03:56:37,329
But other than that, I don't know. I mean, I think that's great. I think that's, I don't know.

2678
03:56:37,329 --> 03:56:47,329
A lot of people want to do some kind of ideological mining. I don't think that's particularly helpful or harmful.

2679
03:56:48,329 --> 03:56:51,329
Ideological bottled water or something.

2680
03:56:52,329 --> 03:56:58,329
How does a drivechain interact with selfish mining? How does it get impacted by selfish mining?

2681
03:56:58,329 --> 03:57:04,329
Well, I don't think selfish mining, the people who wrote the paper, they didn't really apply their own logic.

2682
03:57:05,329 --> 03:57:15,329
I mean, it was a very interesting paper, and it says basically if you have like 35% and you mine a certain way, then you have an edge.

2683
03:57:15,329 --> 03:57:23,329
But the problem is, if someone else has 40% of the hash rate and they mine the same way, then they have an edge that's even bigger than yours.

2684
03:57:24,329 --> 03:57:30,329
And then if someone else has 45% and they mine via selfish mining, they have the biggest edge.

2685
03:57:31,329 --> 03:57:35,329
And then eventually, if you have 51% of the hash rate, then you have the biggest edge.

2686
03:57:35,329 --> 03:57:39,329
But even the logic doesn't end there. It keeps going on and on.

2687
03:57:40,329 --> 03:57:52,329
So if you're in the 49% that's cut out, but you cut in another 6% from the 51% group that's ruling everything and you give everything, almost everything to them, then you have the biggest edge.

2688
03:57:53,329 --> 03:58:07,329
So if you're in the 49% that's cut out, but you cut in another 6% from the 51% group that's ruling everything and you give everything, almost everything to them and keep only a couple pennies for yourself.

2689
03:58:08,329 --> 03:58:10,329
Now you're on top. That's the best of all.

2690
03:58:11,329 --> 03:58:16,329
And then they have an incentive to carve 11% out of you.

2691
03:58:17,329 --> 03:58:19,329
Then you carve 15% back.

2692
03:58:20,329 --> 03:58:26,329
And then eventually you have two 50% coalitions that are equally matched, but highly unstable.

2693
03:58:27,329 --> 03:58:36,329
And then finally, at the very end, everyone decides to just drop selfish mining because it has this huge cost and then it doesn't do anything.

2694
03:58:37,329 --> 03:58:39,329
Selfish mining really exists.

2695
03:58:40,329 --> 03:58:48,329
Although I definitely think the pools play various little games and snipe at each other from time to time, but it doesn't really bubble up to anything real.

2696
03:58:49,329 --> 03:58:53,329
And as for the interaction between selfish mining and Drivechain, I think there really is none.

2697
03:58:54,329 --> 03:58:56,329
Hey, I see Robin in the crowd.

2698
03:58:57,329 --> 03:59:04,329
Robin, I convinced Paul to create his own client and you guys need to link up and collab.

2699
03:59:05,329 --> 03:59:08,329
You can get that ZKP in if you can convince him.

2700
03:59:12,329 --> 03:59:21,329
Well, of course, part of the point is that it will just have all these little modules that people can just put in as they like.

2701
03:59:26,329 --> 03:59:31,329
The idea is that it should be up to the end user which things they want to download in.

2702
03:59:32,329 --> 03:59:33,329
All right, here he is.

2703
03:59:34,329 --> 03:59:38,329
I think if you speak, you're like 20 seconds ahead of the people listening.

2704
03:59:44,329 --> 03:59:45,329
But now here he is as a speaker.

2705
03:59:46,329 --> 03:59:47,329
Hey, Robin, what's going on, man?

2706
03:59:48,329 --> 03:59:49,329
Can you hear me?

2707
03:59:50,329 --> 03:59:51,329
Yep, yep.

2708
03:59:51,329 --> 03:59:52,329
Hello.

2709
03:59:56,329 --> 03:59:59,329
You were talked about in this conversation quite a bit.

2710
04:00:00,329 --> 04:00:11,329
And more or less, I want Paul to touch on what he was saying in terms of a ZKP being unnecessary and not needed.

2711
04:00:12,329 --> 04:00:15,329
Can you touch on that again, Paul, just because he's here right now?

2712
04:00:16,329 --> 04:00:17,329
Oh, sure.

2713
04:00:17,329 --> 04:00:21,329
I said basically that he was talking about zero sync.

2714
04:00:21,329 --> 04:00:27,329
And I was saying that, well, zero sync, it's very cool that it improves SPV mode.

2715
04:00:27,329 --> 04:00:39,329
But we don't live in a world where people are syncing SPV clients where you turn on Electrum and you're constantly frustrated because you don't know if the...

2716
04:00:40,329 --> 04:00:47,329
You constantly see all these different chain tips and you know which one is the longest, but you don't know which of them are invalid or not.

2717
04:00:47,329 --> 04:00:56,329
Because there has really never been any invalid blocks in SPV chain of any significant length.

2718
04:00:56,329 --> 04:01:00,329
And it only happened once in 2015 when there was a lot of unintentional bugs.

2719
04:01:01,329 --> 04:01:05,329
And it was a disaster for everyone involved and the miners who built an invalid block.

2720
04:01:06,329 --> 04:01:11,329
Lost a huge amount of money and probably built in all this redundancy so that it would never happen again, which it has not.

2721
04:01:12,329 --> 04:01:14,329
So I was basically saying something like that.

2722
04:01:14,329 --> 04:01:27,329
Like that the ZK, using ZK to prove validity of the chain is unnecessary because the SPV already does that.

2723
04:01:27,329 --> 04:01:29,329
But it doesn't literally do that.

2724
04:01:29,329 --> 04:01:32,329
But it only does it indirectly.

2725
04:01:32,329 --> 04:01:38,329
But I was also saying that the ZKP also kind of does it only indirectly.

2726
04:01:38,329 --> 04:01:44,329
So the thing is not... I'm saying it's not like a big problem that is affecting people all the time.

2727
04:01:45,329 --> 04:01:47,329
It has, in fact, never affected anyone.

2728
04:01:48,329 --> 04:01:57,329
The question of syncing SPV wallet and being like, maybe this has an invalid block in it or something.

2729
04:01:58,329 --> 04:01:59,329
Because that has never happened.

2730
04:02:03,329 --> 04:02:07,329
Yeah, maybe the advantages are a bit more subtle.

2731
04:02:09,329 --> 04:02:15,329
Like, of course, if you're only verifying the SPV routes, then it's not much better when you're doing with a ZKP.

2732
04:02:16,329 --> 04:02:20,329
But I think it's good when you're verifying all the consensus routes with a ZKP.

2733
04:02:21,329 --> 04:02:24,329
Because that strengthens the network.

2734
04:02:24,329 --> 04:02:30,329
I think the strength of the network comes from as many people as possible verifying all of the consensus routes.

2735
04:02:31,329 --> 04:02:39,329
And I think it would be great if we could just cheaply scale the number of people who are fully validating the entire chain.

2736
04:02:40,329 --> 04:02:46,329
And yeah, ZKPs have the potential that essentially everybody could do it on their phones.

2737
04:02:46,329 --> 04:02:48,329
And I find that quite exciting.

2738
04:02:49,329 --> 04:02:58,329
But I agree that it's more like a subtle thing that is not that clearly of a huge advantage for the individual end user.

2739
04:02:59,329 --> 04:03:02,329
And yeah, I would agree with Paul's critique in that sense.

2740
04:03:04,329 --> 04:03:11,329
The SPV mode is already... It's not literally validating every blockchain rule.

2741
04:03:11,329 --> 04:03:21,329
But there's an implicit suggestion that if a block is being mined on by miners,

2742
04:03:22,329 --> 04:03:28,329
there is an enormous amount of indirect evidence that everyone else has accepted it.

2743
04:03:29,329 --> 04:03:34,329
So you just kind of think to yourself, well, it's true that maybe everyone is wrong.

2744
04:03:35,329 --> 04:03:38,329
It's kind of like a one out of N type of a thing.

2745
04:03:38,329 --> 04:03:40,329
No one has raised the alarm ever on this.

2746
04:03:41,329 --> 04:03:47,329
Can you imagine going back thousands of blocks and then someone saying, wait a minute, this block is invalid.

2747
04:03:48,329 --> 04:03:51,329
This transaction here has whatever, this is a four and it should have been a three.

2748
04:03:52,329 --> 04:03:56,329
And everyone being like, this signature is invalid or something.

2749
04:03:57,329 --> 04:04:04,329
And then we just reorg months of blockchain history.

2750
04:04:05,329 --> 04:04:11,329
So what I did say is that it would be good to improve...

2751
04:04:12,329 --> 04:04:20,329
It's definitely an improvement for the world if the liked clients are souped up and they validate more stuff.

2752
04:04:21,329 --> 04:04:25,329
But it's not like a thing that is happening all the time where people are...

2753
04:04:26,329 --> 04:04:29,329
They sync Electrum and they're like, okay, I know which chain is the longest,

2754
04:04:29,329 --> 04:04:37,329
but I have to worry about accidentally having an invalid block because there's never been any block,

2755
04:04:38,329 --> 04:04:39,329
I think, synced by a liked client.

2756
04:04:40,329 --> 04:04:42,329
That's also because the incentives are aligned not to mine the block.

2757
04:04:43,329 --> 04:04:45,329
Because there are so many people who are validating it.

2758
04:04:46,329 --> 04:04:47,329
I completely agree.

2759
04:04:48,329 --> 04:04:50,329
So validating has definitely a value.

2760
04:04:51,329 --> 04:04:56,329
But it's kind of weird because if people are validating, then the incentives are aligned that nobody cheats.

2761
04:04:56,329 --> 04:05:00,329
But if people are not validating, then there's an incentive to mine invalid blocks.

2762
04:05:02,329 --> 04:05:03,329
Yes, that's right.

2763
04:05:04,329 --> 04:05:05,329
I mean, I agree.

2764
04:05:07,329 --> 04:05:11,329
So it's very subtle, but it is definitely fundamental, I think.

2765
04:05:13,329 --> 04:05:17,329
Well, you could make an interesting argument about scale.

2766
04:05:18,329 --> 04:05:24,329
Let's say you have 8 billion people and almost no one can run a full node.

2767
04:05:25,329 --> 04:05:26,329
You and I would agree that that's terrible.

2768
04:05:27,329 --> 04:05:28,329
And I think it's also unrealistic.

2769
04:05:29,329 --> 04:05:30,329
But that's a bad scenario.

2770
04:05:31,329 --> 04:05:38,329
But even still, it's something that I think scales very well.

2771
04:05:39,329 --> 04:05:48,329
Because let's say you have 8 billion people, only 800 people can run a full node.

2772
04:05:48,329 --> 04:05:54,329
But if they lie, they will be screwing over the other 7.999 billion people.

2773
04:05:55,329 --> 04:05:57,329
Well, now it's such an egregious crime.

2774
04:05:58,329 --> 04:06:05,329
And so many of those people have an incentive to sound the alarm if something happens, as do all the other 799 who actually can.

2775
04:06:06,329 --> 04:06:13,329
So it's kind of a weird situation where even if it's the case that as the network grows in terms of adoption,

2776
04:06:13,329 --> 04:06:20,329
the likelihood that the error goes undetected can still remain very, very high.

2777
04:06:21,329 --> 04:06:27,329
Even if the validation cost is going up a lot and even the validation proportion is plummeting.

2778
04:06:28,329 --> 04:06:33,329
Still, the idea just that, because it's just like you wake up in the morning and it's like, do we detect?

2779
04:06:34,329 --> 04:06:36,329
Are there any errors in the world and do we detect them?

2780
04:06:37,329 --> 04:06:41,329
We want more SPV users and more people who can run a full node.

2781
04:06:42,329 --> 04:06:45,329
All those things make the error detection easier.

2782
04:06:46,329 --> 04:06:56,329
But even the presence of many, many, many SPV users, that actually, I think, still is making it easier, not harder, to detect the errors.

2783
04:06:57,329 --> 04:07:01,329
Although it also means you can fool more people if you muggle an error across.

2784
04:07:02,329 --> 04:07:06,329
And also, there's that question, who enforces consensus rules, right?

2785
04:07:07,329 --> 04:07:12,329
And the more validating users we have, the more people are enforcing consensus rules.

2786
04:07:14,329 --> 04:07:15,329
Right.

2787
04:07:16,329 --> 04:07:19,329
Yeah, we always wanted it to be clear that everybody would just have SPV clients.

2788
04:07:20,329 --> 04:07:22,329
Nobody would enforce consensus rules, really, except for.

2789
04:07:23,329 --> 04:07:26,329
Right. We completely agree that that would be terrible.

2790
04:07:27,329 --> 04:07:28,329
That's not good.

2791
04:07:28,329 --> 04:07:33,329
We always want it to be easier for people to validate and enforce the rules.

2792
04:07:34,329 --> 04:07:42,329
Often, when I talk to crazy large blocker people, they're always saying stuff like, everyone can use SPV.

2793
04:07:43,329 --> 04:07:45,329
And I'm like, I get it from both sides.

2794
04:07:46,329 --> 04:07:50,329
I'm like, no, that doesn't work at all because you can't.

2795
04:07:51,329 --> 04:07:59,329
Like I say, if you want to make a photocopy of the Bible, someone out there actually has to have the first Bible.

2796
04:08:00,329 --> 04:08:01,329
They have to have one somewhere.

2797
04:08:02,329 --> 04:08:03,329
Can't photocopy nothing.

2798
04:08:04,329 --> 04:08:05,329
And everything in the block.

2799
04:08:06,329 --> 04:08:13,329
This is also where the blocks kind of have to be small because everything in the blockchain must be served on command, like client server style.

2800
04:08:14,329 --> 04:08:21,329
I don't know why the space is always doing this.

2801
04:08:22,329 --> 04:08:26,329
Glitchy spaces today for some people.

2802
04:08:27,329 --> 04:08:28,329
I don't know why.

2803
04:08:32,329 --> 04:08:35,329
Actually, I was here to listen to the debate of Supertestnet.

2804
04:08:36,329 --> 04:08:37,329
When is it?

2805
04:08:38,329 --> 04:08:39,329
It already happened.

2806
04:08:40,329 --> 04:08:41,329
You can watch the first one.

2807
04:08:41,329 --> 04:08:48,329
The first one was also very glitchy, but it was recorded.

2808
04:08:49,329 --> 04:08:51,329
And then this one is also recorded.

2809
04:08:52,329 --> 04:08:53,329
I think I'll probably end this one now.

2810
04:08:54,329 --> 04:08:55,329
I was thinking to end it.

2811
04:08:56,329 --> 04:08:58,329
We started at 12 this time, so this is the fourth hour now.

2812
04:08:59,329 --> 04:09:00,329
I have to leave anyways.

2813
04:09:01,329 --> 04:09:02,329
Hey, Robin.

2814
04:09:03,329 --> 04:09:04,329
Excellent.

2815
04:09:05,329 --> 04:09:10,329
If you go to the LayerTwo Labs Twitter, you should be able to play the recording of the first part and then this part.

2816
04:09:11,329 --> 04:09:12,329
It was really glitchy.

2817
04:09:13,329 --> 04:09:15,329
He couldn't even come up for some reason.

2818
04:09:16,329 --> 04:09:17,329
If you play that one, that's pretty good.

2819
04:09:18,329 --> 04:09:19,329
Robin, quick question.

2820
04:09:20,329 --> 04:09:25,329
Would you work on an alternative client to Bitcoin Core?

2821
04:09:26,329 --> 04:09:28,329
Because that was what Paul and I were talking about.

2822
04:09:29,329 --> 04:09:34,329
That's not exactly what I said.

2823
04:09:35,329 --> 04:09:36,329
It's not really an alternative.

2824
04:09:37,329 --> 04:09:38,329
It's an alternative thing that people would run.

2825
04:09:38,329 --> 04:09:39,329
It's kind of like...

2826
04:09:40,329 --> 04:09:41,329
Oh, no.

2827
04:09:42,329 --> 04:09:54,329
I think we have seen often how hard it is to really build an alternative client and how hard it is to implement the consensus rules bug by bug.

2828
04:09:55,329 --> 04:09:56,329
Right.

2829
04:09:57,329 --> 04:09:58,329
That's what I'm not going to do.

2830
04:09:59,329 --> 04:10:00,329
But that's okay.

2831
04:10:01,329 --> 04:10:02,329
Oflo has interpreted it that way.

2832
04:10:03,329 --> 04:10:06,329
But we're not redoing anything in Bitcoin Core.

2833
04:10:06,329 --> 04:10:07,329
We're only adding things.

2834
04:10:08,329 --> 04:10:09,329
But that's okay.

2835
04:10:10,329 --> 04:10:11,329
It's kind of a very new concept.

2836
04:10:12,329 --> 04:10:14,329
I think in an ideal world, we would just have...

2837
04:10:15,329 --> 04:10:22,329
The core devs, they are working on Bitcoin Kernel, which is essentially stripping out the consensus rules out of Bitcoin.

2838
04:10:23,329 --> 04:10:25,329
So that they split up.

2839
04:10:26,329 --> 04:10:32,329
I think currently there's the wallet in there and the GUI and all kinds of things that are not consensus relevant.

2840
04:10:32,329 --> 04:10:37,329
And yeah, they are working on extracting just the consensus library, essentially.

2841
04:10:38,329 --> 04:10:40,329
And yeah, that will take a while.

2842
04:10:41,329 --> 04:10:42,329
For a long time.

2843
04:10:43,329 --> 04:10:56,329
But once they have done that, we could use some of these more modern proof systems like RISC-0, for example, which allows you to compile existing codes to RISC-5 and then just run it through their proof system.

2844
04:10:57,329 --> 04:11:00,329
Because their proof system is essentially like a RISC-5 VM.

2845
04:11:01,329 --> 04:11:10,329
And yeah, that would be ideal, I think, in terms of software engineering, because then we would not have to re-implement the Bitcoin consensus rules and the Bitcoin bugs.

2846
04:11:11,329 --> 04:11:13,329
And that would be vastly better.

2847
04:11:14,329 --> 04:11:20,329
And yeah, that's definitely the long-term goal, but it's not possible currently.

2848
04:11:21,329 --> 04:11:23,329
For many reasons.

2849
04:11:24,329 --> 04:11:27,329
Okay, cool. Well, hey, thanks for popping in.

2850
04:11:28,329 --> 04:11:29,329
Yeah, sure. Thanks for having me.

2851
04:11:30,329 --> 04:11:32,329
Of course, yeah. See you later.

2852
04:11:37,329 --> 04:11:43,329
Okay, guys, I think personally, it's time for me to move on to other important things I have to do today.

2853
04:11:44,329 --> 04:11:53,329
But this has been fun, thanks to SupertestNet and that other guy's name, the CRI, that I already forgot it, unfortunately.

2854
04:11:54,329 --> 04:11:55,329
What was his name?

2855
04:11:56,329 --> 04:11:59,329
But he was great, though. I'm very bad with names. That's on me.

2856
04:12:01,329 --> 04:12:04,329
But he was great.

2857
04:12:05,329 --> 04:12:15,329
And bullish on Istanbul developers, they seem to be a cut above the rest.

2858
04:12:16,329 --> 04:12:25,329
And Oflo, it's not an alternative client, really, per se, because I'm not updating.

2859
04:12:25,329 --> 04:12:29,329
I'm taking Bitcoin Core as it is. I'm just adding something to it.

2860
04:12:30,329 --> 04:12:36,329
Yeah, I got that much. But do we have a word for that? Do we have a name for that?

2861
04:12:37,329 --> 04:12:47,329
Well, I guess we need a different name for it. Hey, you're the marketing person. You name it something.

2862
04:12:48,329 --> 04:12:49,329
I'll come up with something.

2863
04:12:50,329 --> 04:12:51,329
Okay, great.

2864
04:12:52,329 --> 04:13:00,329
Okay, everyone. Hey, thanks. I had a lot of fun, as usual. So thanks a lot. See you guys later. Bye, everyone.

2865
04:13:01,329 --> 04:13:02,329
Ciao, ciao.

2866
04:13:03,329 --> 04:13:04,329
See you.