1 00:00:00,969 --> 00:00:03,969 Thank you for joining us. 2 00:00:30,969 --> 00:00:35,649 Oh my gosh, I can't see anything. Can anyone hear any of me? Did Elon Musk change the software again? 3 00:00:38,289 --> 00:00:41,568 Hmm. I can see the things that I normally see, but I can't see any people. 4 00:00:43,489 --> 00:00:45,489 Maybe I should leave and rejoin. 5 00:00:46,849 --> 00:00:48,369 I don't know. 6 00:00:48,369 --> 00:00:52,088 What is happening? It says $8, but I don't see anything at all. 7 00:00:52,849 --> 00:00:54,169 Elon. 8 00:00:54,169 --> 00:00:56,169 Okay, I'm gonna leave and rejoin. 9 00:01:00,969 --> 00:01:02,969 Okay. 10 00:01:18,488 --> 00:01:20,488 All right, we got Moon Settler. 11 00:01:20,808 --> 00:01:22,808 He's been waiting all week for this. 12 00:01:23,608 --> 00:01:26,488 I've been waiting all week for this. You've been waiting all week for this. 13 00:01:28,248 --> 00:01:30,168 This is 14 00:01:30,168 --> 00:01:33,928 as good as it gets. There's no Bitcoin signal 15 00:01:35,289 --> 00:01:37,289 higher than this signal. 16 00:01:38,488 --> 00:01:40,488 I was here in 17 00:01:40,969 --> 00:01:46,649 Berlin, I still am, and I saw this replica of this giant dome that Hitler wanted to build. 18 00:01:47,528 --> 00:01:49,528 Biggest dome ever made. 19 00:01:50,488 --> 00:01:55,289 That's a perfect analogy for what this is. This is the biggest dome. 20 00:01:55,449 --> 00:02:01,369 Although it's not a great analogy, because Hitler was never able to build that dome on account of 21 00:02:03,608 --> 00:02:08,649 being distracted by losing the war and then dying. But other than that, 22 00:02:11,209 --> 00:02:13,209 I mean, definitely made a lot of mistakes, but 23 00:02:15,129 --> 00:02:17,129 very ambitious person. 24 00:02:26,008 --> 00:02:28,008 All right, Moon Settler, are we doing this? 25 00:02:31,049 --> 00:02:33,049 Yeah, maybe. 26 00:02:33,049 --> 00:02:35,049 Yes. 27 00:02:35,049 --> 00:02:37,049 So, before that, 28 00:02:39,129 --> 00:02:43,129 there was like two things I wanted to say. 29 00:02:47,368 --> 00:02:49,368 One was that 30 00:02:49,929 --> 00:02:51,929 I actually would like to see 31 00:02:52,088 --> 00:02:55,129 blind merge mining being used. 32 00:02:57,849 --> 00:03:05,289 Basically, there are like half a dozen ways you could do it, so I'm confident that 33 00:03:06,329 --> 00:03:08,329 in some form it will happen. 34 00:03:12,728 --> 00:03:17,929 So, I'm kind of interested in the outcome of that 35 00:03:18,648 --> 00:03:20,648 of that 36 00:03:23,289 --> 00:03:29,129 I don't know how to say it, objection or whatever, but before we get into that, if 37 00:03:30,489 --> 00:03:33,528 I'm not on a train this time, I'm in a quiet 38 00:03:34,808 --> 00:03:36,808 luxury hotel room 39 00:03:36,888 --> 00:03:38,888 that might have been on fire yesterday. 40 00:03:40,008 --> 00:03:41,929 It's unclear. 41 00:03:41,929 --> 00:03:46,409 The fire alarm went off. All the people being German, they all left, so I had to also leave. 42 00:03:48,248 --> 00:03:50,248 I didn't see any fires, but 43 00:03:51,289 --> 00:03:53,289 excellent fire alarm, I'll give them that. 44 00:03:54,409 --> 00:03:58,248 Anyway, so we're doing this thing about whether or not 45 00:04:00,329 --> 00:04:04,108 there is a marginal cost advantage 46 00:04:06,168 --> 00:04:10,409 in non-linear in hash rate, that being our x variable. 47 00:04:11,528 --> 00:04:13,528 Yeah, in hash rate share. 48 00:04:13,608 --> 00:04:15,608 The growing hash rate share. 49 00:04:16,888 --> 00:04:19,129 Yeah, so the original quote 50 00:04:19,849 --> 00:04:21,048 that 51 00:04:21,048 --> 00:04:24,569 that I tried to summarize the critiques of 52 00:04:25,208 --> 00:04:27,208 drivechain from this angle 53 00:04:27,849 --> 00:04:32,488 and this is all for those that don't know the context, this is all related to the 54 00:04:33,828 --> 00:04:36,808 realization that since sidechains 55 00:04:37,928 --> 00:04:39,928 reorg independently 56 00:04:40,648 --> 00:04:46,248 for that reason, the main chain bid for a sidechain block 57 00:04:48,889 --> 00:04:51,548 reference, let's say. So sidechain block reference, 58 00:04:52,648 --> 00:04:55,129 when it gets bidded, then it's not atomic. 59 00:04:55,129 --> 00:05:01,289 So the reward that the searcher or block assembler of the sidechain gets on the sidechain 60 00:05:01,609 --> 00:05:04,169 is not atomically tied with his expense. 61 00:05:04,808 --> 00:05:07,449 And that is why it has been theorized that 62 00:05:07,849 --> 00:05:09,928 and I'm going to quote, 63 00:05:10,889 --> 00:05:17,689 read the quote, so blind merge mining bid is inherently risky, growing pool size and not bidding in the main pool 64 00:05:17,849 --> 00:05:23,849 risks the blind merge mining, thus it introduces different economy of scale and centralization dynamics. 65 00:05:23,849 --> 00:05:27,928 So that's kind of what is being claimed about blind merge mining and 66 00:05:29,129 --> 00:05:30,009 and 67 00:05:30,009 --> 00:05:33,689 before we talk about that and why you think that is not true, 68 00:05:34,648 --> 00:05:36,648 can we play a little game? 69 00:05:37,689 --> 00:05:42,729 So we can, but I also have a game I wanted to play before we played it out, which is I wanted you to admit 70 00:05:43,449 --> 00:05:48,248 six different things that would each make it completely irrelevant if this were even true or not. 71 00:05:48,729 --> 00:05:55,768 That's exactly what I wanted. What can be done? So let's pretend it's true for just 72 00:05:56,808 --> 00:06:02,409 argument's sake and what can be done exactly. Okay, this is interesting because this is a blind list backwards. 73 00:06:02,409 --> 00:06:07,689 I was going from the most likely thing to the most worst case scenario thing, but now you're saying 74 00:06:08,409 --> 00:06:10,409 let's just say the worst has happened 75 00:06:10,889 --> 00:06:14,169 and we'll go, so we'll go through my list backwards, which is the last thing on my list 76 00:06:15,048 --> 00:06:17,048 one, two, three, four, 77 00:06:17,528 --> 00:06:19,449 five 78 00:06:19,449 --> 00:06:20,569 is 79 00:06:20,569 --> 00:06:26,328 if we have efficient pool hopping, then nothing matters because as long as you have a way of holding the pool to account 80 00:06:27,289 --> 00:06:29,289 it doesn't matter. You just have 81 00:06:30,229 --> 00:06:32,229 25% pools 82 00:06:33,289 --> 00:06:35,449 or even you could have two 50% pools 83 00:06:36,488 --> 00:06:40,328 and they would hop and I can explain why you would never have a 51% 49% 84 00:06:41,208 --> 00:06:44,669 pool if you're interested. I explained it long ago in 2016 85 00:06:45,528 --> 00:06:47,208 but I can explain it again. 86 00:06:47,208 --> 00:06:51,528 But that's number five on my list is that as long as you have a way of monitoring the pool 87 00:06:52,169 --> 00:06:55,208 shoving the work of running any node onto the pool 88 00:06:55,768 --> 00:06:58,088 and monitoring them for misbehavior and then switching 89 00:06:58,569 --> 00:07:03,768 then nothing matters at all. So because just whatever the pool does, it doesn't matter what the pool is doing. 90 00:07:04,729 --> 00:07:08,248 So that's number five. So I was curious what your take, what is your take on that? 91 00:07:09,368 --> 00:07:14,969 Yeah, so this is basically an argument on that even if pools like grow 92 00:07:16,328 --> 00:07:20,729 to a size that is probably uncomfortable to most Bitcoiners who do not 93 00:07:21,449 --> 00:07:23,449 Even if they don't have fixed costs 94 00:07:24,009 --> 00:07:31,289 Even that you are saying even that would work just fine. Yeah, if there were two 50% pools 95 00:07:31,849 --> 00:07:33,849 but they each of them had to behave 96 00:07:34,469 --> 00:07:35,768 perfectly 97 00:07:35,768 --> 00:07:37,768 because if they made any mistake 98 00:07:37,928 --> 00:07:43,148 someone would switch pools or they would start a new pool. You know what I mean? You have some kind of automatic pool replacement 99 00:07:44,169 --> 00:07:48,349 thing, which is quite easy to do. The only reason there hasn't been any creativity 100 00:07:49,109 --> 00:07:50,469 innovation 101 00:07:50,469 --> 00:07:55,109 entrepreneurship in this direction is because the pools are all very well behaved. They're already on a very short leash 102 00:07:55,669 --> 00:07:57,669 but even if they weren't 103 00:07:58,148 --> 00:08:00,148 you could have something where 104 00:08:00,708 --> 00:08:05,428 there's two 50% pools and if as soon as an error is made an error would be 105 00:08:06,308 --> 00:08:08,308 censoring a transaction 106 00:08:08,308 --> 00:08:11,268 or doing some kind of reorg or whatever anything bad 107 00:08:12,789 --> 00:08:17,669 As soon as that mistake was made if there would be the death of that pool and there would be a new 108 00:08:18,629 --> 00:08:20,469 second pool 109 00:08:20,469 --> 00:08:25,428 Temporarily one pool would have maybe 100% the next pool would spin up and then quickly get the other 50% 110 00:08:26,629 --> 00:08:30,229 You could have and I've explained this in the past one such way would be 111 00:08:31,428 --> 00:08:36,309 You blacklist any pool that ever makes a mistake and then you switch pools randomly 112 00:08:36,869 --> 00:08:41,669 And then if you ever find a situation where 100% of the hashrate is in one pool, everyone just flips a coin 113 00:08:42,388 --> 00:08:47,909 They they fork the pool and if everyone ran the identical piece of software like some kind of like optimal pool 114 00:08:48,869 --> 00:08:52,628 Which I sometimes in my head I call it stratum v3. It's like a kind of joke 115 00:08:53,268 --> 00:08:55,349 But if everyone ran the exact same software 116 00:08:55,349 --> 00:08:58,309 It could do this could do all the pooling for us and it could all be optimized 117 00:08:58,469 --> 00:09:00,948 Of course in practice there are many pools for many different reasons 118 00:09:01,508 --> 00:09:05,109 Sometimes brand sometimes hash, you know ant pool marathon 119 00:09:05,729 --> 00:09:06,869 sometimes 120 00:09:06,869 --> 00:09:11,669 There's different pools because of the different paper last and shares people have different preferences on that type of thing 121 00:09:13,188 --> 00:09:15,188 Right, that's my first thought 122 00:09:15,268 --> 00:09:17,268 so last time 123 00:09:17,508 --> 00:09:19,109 we mentioned that 124 00:09:19,109 --> 00:09:26,088 There is a an incentive for increasing the pools, which is a lower variance and then you said there is a disincentive 125 00:09:26,708 --> 00:09:32,068 Uh for pools to go too big, but you were breaking up around that part and they did not really catch 126 00:09:32,229 --> 00:09:36,789 Well, that's unfortunate there's something called that was originally called the block withholding attack 127 00:09:37,409 --> 00:09:40,148 Unfortunately, that phrase has been used for several different things 128 00:09:40,708 --> 00:09:42,708 and also unfortunately google 129 00:09:43,268 --> 00:09:45,588 is terrible now, it used to be great, of course, but 130 00:09:47,109 --> 00:09:47,749 Now it's awful 131 00:09:47,749 --> 00:09:52,309 But you can find the original which I think is by it all or you can search and find on truthcoin 132 00:09:52,388 --> 00:09:59,028 You can find the miner equilibrium analysis miner threat model and equilibrium analysis and I cite it there and not only do I cite it 133 00:09:59,028 --> 00:10:02,068 But I replicated their findings in the microsoft excel 134 00:10:02,708 --> 00:10:07,688 For anyone cares, but the big it's there's a way of attacking a pool profitably 135 00:10:08,388 --> 00:10:10,388 Where you join the pool? 136 00:10:10,549 --> 00:10:16,068 And then you don't you submit when you find a share you submit that but when you find a block you do not 137 00:10:16,789 --> 00:10:19,669 Do that and this actually is a more effective attack 138 00:10:20,708 --> 00:10:25,188 When your enemy has a higher hash rate and you can in fact attack every pool at once 139 00:10:26,229 --> 00:10:28,229 And it is the most effective of all 140 00:10:28,388 --> 00:10:31,429 and i'm not sure if there's some kind of second order effect that 141 00:10:31,989 --> 00:10:34,948 prevents this from happening or if it's just the usual story of just 142 00:10:35,749 --> 00:10:39,749 No one wanting to start a dispute that has no. Yeah, I mean 143 00:10:41,429 --> 00:10:43,989 Try trying to fuck with the pool that pays you 144 00:10:44,628 --> 00:10:48,948 And custody is the funds until you get paid is kind of like 145 00:10:49,749 --> 00:10:51,749 an interesting choice 146 00:10:51,828 --> 00:10:53,508 Yes, but it's not um 147 00:10:53,508 --> 00:10:57,749 What you do is you behave honorably and then it just looks always like you have bad luck 148 00:10:58,789 --> 00:11:04,388 Because you are finding shares so they can tell that you're really doing the hashing but then you never submit the block 149 00:11:05,669 --> 00:11:07,669 and this what this does is it 150 00:11:08,309 --> 00:11:14,948 It it does a combined thing is by first of all, you're leeching the enemy pool of cash because other people are still submitting 151 00:11:15,749 --> 00:11:16,869 shares 152 00:11:16,869 --> 00:11:18,869 and then you are also 153 00:11:20,469 --> 00:11:24,869 Uh, you are lowering the difficulty by discarding you're lowering the work 154 00:11:25,828 --> 00:11:32,229 The the proof of work of the network decreases in the whole amount of the work that is 155 00:11:33,989 --> 00:11:39,588 Sorry, I just stepped on something my pen, um, it decreases the proof of work of the whole network 156 00:11:41,268 --> 00:11:43,268 Um decreases 157 00:11:43,588 --> 00:11:45,588 You're knocking out the entire 158 00:11:46,469 --> 00:11:49,349 You're punching above your weight when you when you discard the block 159 00:11:50,549 --> 00:11:53,768 So it looks as though the whole network difficulty decreases 160 00:11:54,948 --> 00:11:59,508 Actually, I shouldn't really not even talk about it because I can't quite fully remember it all because it was a very long time 161 00:11:59,508 --> 00:12:01,508 ago when I made this spreadsheet, but 162 00:12:01,568 --> 00:12:05,669 Spreadsheet is still there is my point. Just gotta but that's a big one 163 00:12:07,989 --> 00:12:14,969 It's also the case of course that no one wants to become too big of a pool because it's actually too ominous 164 00:12:16,388 --> 00:12:18,388 It's too unstable to have 51 165 00:12:19,349 --> 00:12:21,429 Because the other 49 will get nervous 166 00:12:22,309 --> 00:12:26,388 They think we're powerless so the 49 will be very eager to cut a deal 167 00:12:27,028 --> 00:12:28,948 with two percent out of the 51 168 00:12:29,989 --> 00:12:31,989 And no one really wants all this 169 00:12:31,989 --> 00:12:33,268 deal cutting 170 00:12:33,268 --> 00:12:35,188 It's not in anyone's interest 171 00:12:35,188 --> 00:12:41,109 It costs basically nothing for a 60 person miner to pretend. He is a 320 person miner 172 00:12:41,188 --> 00:12:44,068 So as far as i'm aware, it doesn't cost him anything 173 00:12:45,028 --> 00:12:46,549 And as you know perfectly well 174 00:12:46,549 --> 00:12:52,948 There are also other economies of scale in that the the share rate and the fees have to be set 175 00:12:53,669 --> 00:12:55,828 a certain way given the size 176 00:12:56,708 --> 00:12:59,508 And also it's just annoying to have to interact with more people 177 00:13:00,309 --> 00:13:02,309 So and the as you said 178 00:13:02,708 --> 00:13:04,448 when I was on the train 179 00:13:04,448 --> 00:13:05,588 correctly 180 00:13:05,588 --> 00:13:06,789 the 181 00:13:06,789 --> 00:13:08,789 Gain from joining a pool 182 00:13:09,268 --> 00:13:11,268 has diminishing returns 183 00:13:11,429 --> 00:13:15,828 Um, and so I think this is why we have different size pools, but of course we never really know 184 00:13:17,028 --> 00:13:21,609 We just know the pool self-report. It's just there they volunteer this information 185 00:13:23,989 --> 00:13:28,148 But that's my number five on my list where if that 186 00:13:29,909 --> 00:13:31,989 Happened then nothing would matter 187 00:13:36,309 --> 00:13:38,309 And 188 00:13:38,309 --> 00:13:43,669 Do you think we can go through the list but um, yeah, let's go 189 00:13:44,388 --> 00:13:45,508 Okay 190 00:13:45,508 --> 00:13:51,028 okay, well i'm going to now switch to go back in the list like an order because when I wrote it down it is like 191 00:13:51,749 --> 00:13:53,749 It has like a temporal 192 00:13:54,148 --> 00:13:58,229 Order somewhat. So the first thing on the list is that the node costs 193 00:13:58,789 --> 00:14:00,789 They won't be that large anyway 194 00:14:01,268 --> 00:14:03,028 for a variety of reasons 195 00:14:03,028 --> 00:14:05,028 One is as I constantly repeat 196 00:14:05,909 --> 00:14:11,268 Regular end user of the sidechain has to be able to run a node and they're a zero percent hasher 197 00:14:11,969 --> 00:14:13,349 basically 198 00:14:13,349 --> 00:14:16,708 So this is kind of a natural ceiling on the cost of the node 199 00:14:17,588 --> 00:14:19,989 but the second sub bullet point is 200 00:14:22,148 --> 00:14:29,109 Um, you know these miners they're spending like unbelievable amounts of money like, you know millions and millions of dollars 201 00:14:29,909 --> 00:14:31,909 they're buying 202 00:14:32,309 --> 00:14:34,309 Asics by the 40-foot marine 203 00:14:34,708 --> 00:14:35,989 container 204 00:14:35,989 --> 00:14:37,989 And they put them on an 18 wheeler 205 00:14:38,549 --> 00:14:40,869 You know, it's like the amounts we're talking here 206 00:14:41,429 --> 00:14:46,549 Are utterly enormous and I calculated even a one gigabyte node, which is 207 00:14:47,349 --> 00:14:49,828 blown way into fantasy land of what 208 00:14:51,989 --> 00:14:53,989 I think would even be 209 00:14:54,708 --> 00:14:59,909 Would even possibly be you know producing block space that anyone could even consume 210 00:15:01,828 --> 00:15:04,549 I've already calculated that as like being like whatever like a two 211 00:15:04,869 --> 00:15:08,948 Two thousand and change to set up and then like a couple like four hundred dollars ish a month 212 00:15:09,508 --> 00:15:14,148 Which is like very very very liberal assumptions. These calculations are in my 213 00:15:14,789 --> 00:15:16,549 blog posts called 214 00:15:16,549 --> 00:15:18,789 Thunder the large box sidechain. There's an appendix 215 00:15:19,828 --> 00:15:25,828 at the bottom and probably honestly the costs are even lower if you properly adjust for inflation because I wrote that before the 216 00:15:27,028 --> 00:15:29,268 covid bite inflation or whatever, so 217 00:15:30,708 --> 00:15:32,869 I think honestly it's even cheaper. So 218 00:15:33,588 --> 00:15:36,729 Uh, so the idea that something that we're talking like amortized 219 00:15:37,588 --> 00:15:39,188 like 220 00:15:39,188 --> 00:15:42,549 Fewer than ten thousand dollars total over like three years 221 00:15:44,388 --> 00:15:46,469 Ten thousand dollars over three years versus 222 00:15:47,429 --> 00:15:54,549 What anyone of a mining operation of any plausible? I mean, I looked up like what an s19 s9 s29, whatever 223 00:15:55,429 --> 00:15:58,068 You know those things are selling for like four or five six thousand dollars 224 00:15:58,708 --> 00:16:00,789 Just to buy one without even plugging it in 225 00:16:01,429 --> 00:16:03,828 So it's kind of like the node cost just can't be that large 226 00:16:04,388 --> 00:16:06,388 Just right off the bat like at all 227 00:16:06,708 --> 00:16:09,669 I agree. I agree. The node cost is probably 228 00:16:10,229 --> 00:16:16,628 Like only a sidechain is only useful if the node cost is affordable to the users or a large enough set of the users 229 00:16:17,109 --> 00:16:24,229 I believe I think people imagine that the searchers costs will be several several magnitudes higher 230 00:16:24,948 --> 00:16:25,909 Yes 231 00:16:25,909 --> 00:16:31,508 Uh, well, I agree but again this searcher thing is I think the point in dispute because it seems like there's some like big 232 00:16:31,828 --> 00:16:33,828 huge miscommunication 233 00:16:34,289 --> 00:16:36,628 Persistently happening. So that's probably the meat of it 234 00:16:37,669 --> 00:16:42,789 but then I have some other points i'm not even sure they matter since you agreed to the one in five and either any 235 00:16:42,869 --> 00:16:44,068 one of them would 236 00:16:44,068 --> 00:16:46,068 kind of tank the whole thing, but 237 00:16:46,148 --> 00:16:48,549 But two is that if the costs are large 238 00:16:49,349 --> 00:16:53,669 The miners will shirk the costs somehow. So even if there is no bip three or one 239 00:16:54,628 --> 00:16:59,028 They will just if the cost somehow became so big that they were significant 240 00:17:00,068 --> 00:17:02,068 Which I already don't think happened 241 00:17:03,028 --> 00:17:07,188 But they would just do some kind of partnership like all the miners would partner with one node 242 00:17:08,149 --> 00:17:10,068 Now I have to stress 243 00:17:10,068 --> 00:17:12,068 Lest I'd be misunderstood 244 00:17:12,629 --> 00:17:16,068 That i'm fully aware that that would be a terrible situation if there's only one node 245 00:17:17,029 --> 00:17:19,109 But the point is it's terrible for 246 00:17:19,749 --> 00:17:25,908 The users of the sidechain it does not affect the users of L1 or users of any other sidechain it's um 247 00:17:27,668 --> 00:17:32,229 It's really just a decision the user makes how much decentralization they want 248 00:17:34,469 --> 00:17:36,469 They have um 249 00:17:36,788 --> 00:17:38,948 That choice and there's plenty of things they could use 250 00:17:40,389 --> 00:17:42,229 WeChat pay venmo or whatever 251 00:17:42,229 --> 00:17:47,509 So the number two point is that the miners are going to shirk the cost because they don't it's not literally the case 252 00:17:48,068 --> 00:17:52,068 That one node will run out if a certain number of hashes 253 00:17:52,629 --> 00:17:55,509 You know what? I mean? It's not like once you do 10 million hashes 254 00:17:56,068 --> 00:17:57,188 per second 255 00:17:57,188 --> 00:17:58,869 You need a second node 256 00:17:58,869 --> 00:18:04,629 That's not the case. So it is theoretically possible for one single node somewhere to service 100 257 00:18:05,749 --> 00:18:07,749 of the miners 258 00:18:07,828 --> 00:18:09,828 Which is a BIP301 thing 259 00:18:09,989 --> 00:18:13,109 Even if it's not happening with BIP301, it's the same type of thing 260 00:18:13,109 --> 00:18:15,769 So it'd be like an infura thing maybe like some kind of subscription 261 00:18:16,469 --> 00:18:18,469 Or they'd have some kind of like handshake 262 00:18:18,629 --> 00:18:21,908 Deal or whatever it is and it's sort of a thing. Yeah 263 00:18:22,548 --> 00:18:29,908 I believe I believe shinobi specifically was ranting about this. He believes this would be a very bad thing for bitcoin and 264 00:18:31,029 --> 00:18:36,068 The miners dependence on such a super node would be very bad for bitcoin. He argues that 265 00:18:38,308 --> 00:18:42,149 It leads directly to my third point though, which is very related to the second point 266 00:18:42,788 --> 00:18:48,229 Which is that something like liquid that shinobi supports or presumably supports 267 00:18:49,428 --> 00:18:52,389 That is an example of the node cost being infinite 268 00:18:53,188 --> 00:18:56,708 Because no matter how much I pay i'll never be able to actually 269 00:18:57,668 --> 00:19:00,948 join the liquid 15, you know sat there and run the 270 00:19:01,668 --> 00:19:03,668 so people seem to have some kind of problem with 271 00:19:04,708 --> 00:19:07,269 They don't they obviously don't care if the node costs are zero 272 00:19:08,308 --> 00:19:11,668 But then they seem to care if the node costs rise, but then at some point 273 00:19:12,149 --> 00:19:15,509 It does a u-turn because before it gets to infinity people stop caring 274 00:19:16,469 --> 00:19:18,469 but uh the node cost 275 00:19:18,469 --> 00:19:25,749 I I just read your articles about this the node cost was in relation to knowing that you got paid 276 00:19:26,068 --> 00:19:30,389 So to to run a liquid node that tells you that you got paid 277 00:19:31,509 --> 00:19:33,509 the cost of that is is 278 00:19:33,828 --> 00:19:37,908 Barely anything because there are only two transactions happening in a liquid node 279 00:19:38,869 --> 00:19:45,668 Well, I gotta tell you that's a very astute of you but in this context, I think we're referring to something slightly different than 280 00:19:46,869 --> 00:19:48,869 what you were referring to is 281 00:19:49,509 --> 00:19:52,969 Because in a way you don't know if whether or not you can withdraw 282 00:19:53,588 --> 00:19:58,948 What in this context I think what it means is it's a mining technology that allows you to collect the transaction fee 283 00:19:59,428 --> 00:20:02,889 So in liquid all the fees are collected by swatching basically 284 00:20:03,618 --> 00:20:05,618 And so even though people may observe 285 00:20:06,658 --> 00:20:10,018 That their transactions have been validated in liquid 286 00:20:10,898 --> 00:20:17,138 They don't the miners cannot use that information to collect a fee. So we have a slightly different meaning in this case 287 00:20:18,418 --> 00:20:20,658 Yeah, not not all nodes are medical. Yeah 288 00:20:22,818 --> 00:20:30,257 So in this case of being a miner fee generation technology shinobi has to equivocate he tries to have it both ways 289 00:20:31,058 --> 00:20:33,058 and in one sense he says 290 00:20:33,458 --> 00:20:35,458 It's it's very bad 291 00:20:35,458 --> 00:20:36,898 if 292 00:20:36,898 --> 00:20:42,657 You know, and once when he just gets to the t-shirt argument, he flips it around he says that's different because t-shirts require 293 00:20:43,438 --> 00:20:45,438 factories and people 294 00:20:46,177 --> 00:20:50,258 and then he flips it back around when it comes to the liquid argument where he says 295 00:20:51,378 --> 00:20:52,337 that 296 00:20:52,337 --> 00:20:57,137 it's good because for some reason I don't both of them are incoherent in my point of view, but 297 00:20:58,017 --> 00:21:01,858 the liquid I think I think he may have said something like when 298 00:21:02,497 --> 00:21:03,378 The 299 00:21:03,378 --> 00:21:05,218 The miners don't get paid, right? 300 00:21:05,218 --> 00:21:07,218 like last time we talked the the 301 00:21:07,297 --> 00:21:14,017 Tommy or the disagreement seems to be on the sidechain technologies on whether the miners should get paid or not get paid the fees 302 00:21:14,738 --> 00:21:20,977 and and that basically seems to be in some people's head like a dividing line between 303 00:21:21,617 --> 00:21:23,297 the sidechain 304 00:21:23,297 --> 00:21:29,538 Economic activity being able to influence or distort the mining incentives whatsoever for some reason 305 00:21:30,017 --> 00:21:37,458 So they assume if the miners don't get paid if the sidechain validators or whatever keep all the fees and all the MEV and everything 306 00:21:37,858 --> 00:21:44,337 Then it obviously will like not affect the the layer one miners. I'm not sure about that, but that's kind of the 307 00:21:44,977 --> 00:21:46,337 idea 308 00:21:46,337 --> 00:21:51,538 You should be able to be sure about it because it's just one is just equal to the sum of the others 309 00:21:51,698 --> 00:21:53,138 for example 310 00:21:53,138 --> 00:21:55,138 I could start up my own liquid 311 00:21:55,538 --> 00:21:59,538 And it could be identical to blockstream where I control these keys and I collect all the fees 312 00:22:00,098 --> 00:22:06,738 And then after starting up my own liquid I could say that i'm going to randomly donate some of the money to the miners 313 00:22:07,217 --> 00:22:09,217 And then it just becomes the exact same thing 314 00:22:11,217 --> 00:22:13,777 Well, I could give all the money to the miners every 10 minutes, you know what I mean 315 00:22:13,777 --> 00:22:18,738 then it just becomes the exact same thing so what so that's my point number three is that 316 00:22:19,777 --> 00:22:23,777 There's no parallel complaint about liquid or really even about any other 317 00:22:24,497 --> 00:22:27,777 Thing that makes money that could partner with miners that they 318 00:22:28,577 --> 00:22:34,017 It's like again, they have no problem if it's completely separated no problem if it happens 319 00:22:34,497 --> 00:22:38,898 Like in liquid no problem with the current L1 fees where it's completely 320 00:22:39,618 --> 00:22:41,458 tightly bound up 321 00:22:41,458 --> 00:22:43,458 It's all mandatorily linked 322 00:22:44,417 --> 00:22:46,417 And then they seem to have 323 00:22:47,057 --> 00:22:49,057 Only a problem in like weird 324 00:22:50,178 --> 00:22:51,857 middle regions 325 00:22:52,338 --> 00:22:53,777 I think there is 326 00:22:53,777 --> 00:22:56,898 I think there is one more aspect to this whole thing like 327 00:22:57,937 --> 00:23:02,338 A lot of the critics that are worried about these weird 328 00:23:03,297 --> 00:23:08,178 Perverse or adverse effects are actually very bullish on drivechains 329 00:23:08,178 --> 00:23:14,657 So they think people would use them a lot more there would be a lot more economic activity on them 330 00:23:15,217 --> 00:23:16,338 Uh 331 00:23:16,338 --> 00:23:21,937 Then then the current alternatives that are possible now, so that's what I noticed that 332 00:23:22,818 --> 00:23:29,217 That they think they think drivechains would be much more successful than what I would be, you know 333 00:23:29,698 --> 00:23:30,978 betting on 334 00:23:30,978 --> 00:23:32,978 basically 335 00:23:32,978 --> 00:23:37,698 Yeah, or even I will even what I would say in like the short term because of course like with anything 336 00:23:37,937 --> 00:23:39,937 the only way it will actually work is 337 00:23:40,417 --> 00:23:42,417 At first it will be created then 338 00:23:42,738 --> 00:23:44,997 A bunch of people are going to send like 20 25 339 00:23:46,258 --> 00:23:49,458 into the sidechain and they'll kind of test it out to be like the 340 00:23:50,657 --> 00:23:54,678 The early explorer type people and then it'll get like a little bit of a reputation 341 00:23:55,698 --> 00:23:57,698 for working and then 342 00:23:58,017 --> 00:24:00,017 people will continue to 343 00:24:00,657 --> 00:24:04,898 Push the envelope as far as it can be pushed. So certainly it at first it will not have 344 00:24:06,338 --> 00:24:08,338 I think they are afraid of of some 345 00:24:08,818 --> 00:24:16,258 Some most misunderstanding creating like a gold rush like frenzy kind of what we saw with 346 00:24:17,137 --> 00:24:19,217 I don't know what example to say 347 00:24:20,018 --> 00:24:22,018 Like inscriptions, right? 348 00:24:22,177 --> 00:24:28,518 So you you get this this, uh, it's frenzy this craziness a lot of uneducated people overestimating 349 00:24:29,217 --> 00:24:35,057 Um the security assumptions or whatever and being really careless and creating these is weird 350 00:24:35,457 --> 00:24:41,457 Situations, I think that's kind of the idea the underlying fear or I don't know how to say that 351 00:24:45,698 --> 00:24:50,177 So you seem to mostly agreed with numbers one two three and five on my list 352 00:24:51,617 --> 00:24:53,937 The fourth one is pretty lame though. It just basically says 353 00:24:55,777 --> 00:25:01,538 It says well, it's sort of hard to say it basically what i'm getting at in this last one is 354 00:25:02,337 --> 00:25:04,337 There's a difference between the u.s 355 00:25:04,337 --> 00:25:08,818 Dollar value of the it's it should be purchasing power equality 356 00:25:09,057 --> 00:25:12,337 So basically if bib 301 works, then it also doesn't matter but that's 357 00:25:13,057 --> 00:25:15,538 That's uh, if the u.s dollar value 358 00:25:17,217 --> 00:25:23,617 Of the of the block is equal more or less equal to what is paid on L1 then 359 00:25:25,698 --> 00:25:27,698 You can separate 360 00:25:27,777 --> 00:25:29,777 Division 361 00:25:29,777 --> 00:25:32,098 Division of labor and then um 362 00:25:32,897 --> 00:25:36,578 My no miner is paying miners are free riding off of the existing 363 00:25:37,698 --> 00:25:40,098 sidechain full nodes miners never need 364 00:25:41,138 --> 00:25:43,217 to run a sidechain node and they 365 00:25:44,258 --> 00:25:48,818 free ride off of the other people who are running nodes and therefore they're never affected by 366 00:25:50,497 --> 00:25:56,258 What whatever the sidechain is doing including mev including searchers including whatever 367 00:25:56,978 --> 00:26:00,098 Yeah, that's the ideal outcome right so so that would be 368 00:26:06,258 --> 00:26:07,937 Uh, right 369 00:26:07,937 --> 00:26:09,057 so 370 00:26:09,057 --> 00:26:11,057 Now we should get into this thing 371 00:26:11,457 --> 00:26:17,777 That I have apparently struggled to convey. Did you have an opportunity to look at my little pictures with the smiley faces? 372 00:26:18,657 --> 00:26:20,337 or no 373 00:26:20,337 --> 00:26:23,217 If not, I could probably find them we could probably put them 374 00:26:23,858 --> 00:26:25,858 in the nest 375 00:26:26,258 --> 00:26:29,937 I know I I looked at them, but I could not find them again 376 00:26:30,657 --> 00:26:32,497 um 377 00:26:32,497 --> 00:26:34,997 Okay, i'll find them now what the hell is happening 378 00:26:45,698 --> 00:26:53,777 Okay, i'm gonna try to get him I know they're in my highlights and they go to tidwell's answer find them 379 00:26:56,657 --> 00:27:00,358 Um, it's not easy to find everything 380 00:27:02,657 --> 00:27:04,657 Let's see 381 00:27:06,418 --> 00:27:12,737 Can you hear me now by the way because my headset needs some things yeah, I think we can hear you just fine 382 00:27:12,737 --> 00:27:14,737 I think I can hear you 383 00:27:18,497 --> 00:27:24,258 Okay, so if you put something in the nest then I I can't see it again 384 00:27:26,418 --> 00:27:28,418 Okay, i'm getting it I found him now 385 00:27:31,217 --> 00:27:34,337 I just have to because I found it on my laptop and i'm on my phone 386 00:27:36,897 --> 00:27:42,337 I have to move them away. Here we go. Copy link. So 387 00:27:44,337 --> 00:27:50,657 From what I remember by the way, it was something like, uh, something like, uh, 388 00:27:52,177 --> 00:27:54,177 An assumption that 389 00:27:55,138 --> 00:27:58,337 That uh the layer 2 sidechain fees 390 00:27:59,057 --> 00:28:03,378 That mev would be expressed on the layer 2 sidechain fees and that's why it doesn't matter 391 00:28:03,858 --> 00:28:05,617 that's what I remember, but 392 00:28:05,617 --> 00:28:07,617 We will see 393 00:28:07,777 --> 00:28:13,698 That's not an assumption. Okay. Hang on. I apologize that this has taken so long, but I think I figured it out 394 00:28:14,578 --> 00:28:16,578 Here we go. Paste reply 395 00:28:17,538 --> 00:28:19,538 Okay, I replied with it 396 00:28:21,057 --> 00:28:23,057 Send now 397 00:28:24,177 --> 00:28:29,617 Okay, I got it and I also have uh, let me see if you go into this and you find the quote 398 00:28:30,578 --> 00:28:32,578 and there's one where I 399 00:28:34,657 --> 00:28:37,218 Let's see where this thing is. Yeah, I see 400 00:28:39,857 --> 00:28:41,857 Okay 401 00:28:45,218 --> 00:28:46,497 Find this here 402 00:28:46,497 --> 00:28:51,617 I'm trying to find i'm also going to post the one the the thread that has all the ones about mbv 403 00:28:52,497 --> 00:28:55,778 All eight all three, I think sorry, there's four links actually 404 00:28:56,977 --> 00:28:59,138 But while you glance at those 405 00:29:00,097 --> 00:29:01,218 I will 406 00:29:01,218 --> 00:29:03,537 Find this thing. Where is it? 407 00:29:08,658 --> 00:29:10,658 Okay, here we go 408 00:29:16,097 --> 00:29:18,097 Okay, almost 409 00:29:18,417 --> 00:29:20,417 Okay 410 00:29:20,578 --> 00:29:22,417 Okay 411 00:29:22,417 --> 00:29:25,057 All right. Now i'm posting this other link that is like the 412 00:29:26,018 --> 00:29:28,018 breaking off point 413 00:29:28,578 --> 00:29:30,578 Where has all the mev links also 414 00:29:32,497 --> 00:29:34,497 Um 415 00:29:36,497 --> 00:29:38,497 That's a refresh 416 00:29:39,297 --> 00:29:41,297 It's weird that it doesn't 417 00:29:41,937 --> 00:29:45,218 It's weird if I listen live or make an infinite loop. I don't want to do that 418 00:29:45,458 --> 00:29:51,138 I don't want any infinite loops around here. Okay, i'm going to reply to the post with this 419 00:29:53,617 --> 00:29:55,297 Hopefully this will 420 00:29:55,297 --> 00:29:56,898 work 421 00:29:56,898 --> 00:30:04,097 All right. So these are for number eight. So hopefully you can see that now possibly but the key thing is these little images here 422 00:30:05,138 --> 00:30:07,218 so I don't know if this is making any sense or not, but 423 00:30:07,937 --> 00:30:12,018 The person the point i'm trying to say is the bmm searcher 424 00:30:12,338 --> 00:30:14,338 They are the person who will bid up 425 00:30:14,658 --> 00:30:16,417 on L1 426 00:30:16,417 --> 00:30:20,417 There's nothing to do with what the L1 miner wants so they won't be affected 427 00:30:25,617 --> 00:30:28,417 Yeah, uh and uh 428 00:30:32,898 --> 00:30:37,458 So you see it's all completely something that happens in the sidechain world inside that little 429 00:30:38,417 --> 00:30:39,537 uh 430 00:30:40,338 --> 00:30:44,338 You know inside the little box the layer two rounded corners box 431 00:30:50,658 --> 00:30:56,018 All right, so so in in the case right in in the ideal case where uh 432 00:30:56,898 --> 00:31:04,018 where you have uh searchers that are not vertically integrated and have competition between each other 433 00:31:04,818 --> 00:31:08,818 and uh, they are actually like, uh bidding in the map 434 00:31:09,698 --> 00:31:14,018 It doesn't quite matter if they have to be competition because remember in the liquid case 435 00:31:14,497 --> 00:31:17,057 There's just a monopolist to collect all the fees. Yeah 436 00:31:17,617 --> 00:31:22,658 yeah, yeah, but what i'm trying to get at uh, I think the idea is that 437 00:31:23,297 --> 00:31:25,297 if the searchers do not have 438 00:31:25,838 --> 00:31:32,737 competition if there is a monopoly there then that monopoly will retain like every surplus value and 439 00:31:33,057 --> 00:31:35,057 And only try to pay for like 440 00:31:35,937 --> 00:31:38,497 You could bid the whole thing that's true 441 00:31:39,537 --> 00:31:43,797 so they won't won't be the whole thing and and uh, and that incentivizes 442 00:31:44,977 --> 00:31:50,097 Uh, maybe the better capitalized miners to actually go after it themselves. Oh, but that's 443 00:31:51,218 --> 00:31:56,658 That's true. And it's very clever, but that contradicts the whole monopoly thing. So it's it's either a monopoly or it's not 444 00:31:57,297 --> 00:31:59,297 right, right, right, so 445 00:31:59,378 --> 00:32:05,458 It's a very dynamic game so these things like like shift and bounce off of each other these 446 00:32:06,078 --> 00:32:11,937 assumptions or I don't know what to call them these these these states, uh of these networks because 447 00:32:12,557 --> 00:32:14,557 immediately that the the 448 00:32:14,898 --> 00:32:17,138 the miners get the sense that they are 449 00:32:17,857 --> 00:32:19,378 they are 450 00:32:19,378 --> 00:32:21,378 being uh withheld from 451 00:32:21,857 --> 00:32:22,977 then 452 00:32:22,977 --> 00:32:24,977 They they will become curious 453 00:32:25,218 --> 00:32:30,497 Uh to to create an alternative or a competition to the search I believe 454 00:32:32,258 --> 00:32:34,258 Well, okay, but um 455 00:32:34,658 --> 00:32:39,138 in fact, they can completely screw that searcher over because uh 456 00:32:39,698 --> 00:32:44,658 like we discussed the they kind of have the power to they kind of have the power to 457 00:32:45,297 --> 00:32:46,258 to 458 00:32:46,258 --> 00:32:52,177 You know reorder the sidechain box and take away the sidechain rewards and and include their own, uh hashes 459 00:32:52,818 --> 00:32:59,218 And uh, whatever but I don't want to like rush ahead with all this, um, right because that's a separate thing 460 00:32:59,378 --> 00:33:01,378 I think there's a different misconception. Yeah 461 00:33:01,778 --> 00:33:04,818 Yeah, because my view on that even though we'll get to it is that 462 00:33:05,378 --> 00:33:11,138 That is what I was talking about about the u.s. Dollar value is the same even if the coin amount is different 463 00:33:12,097 --> 00:33:16,097 so like if there's if there's this is a chain where there's 50 of the blocks are 464 00:33:17,037 --> 00:33:18,338 orphaned 465 00:33:18,338 --> 00:33:20,497 The equilibrium bid value will fall 466 00:33:21,218 --> 00:33:26,338 Like half but it'll be the same u.s. Dollar it'll be a fall for everyone since no one knows if they're going to be reorg 467 00:33:27,057 --> 00:33:32,177 Main or side and so then it's the same u.s. Dollar value in the bid. That's 301. So that was 468 00:33:32,818 --> 00:33:35,937 But that's a very complex point so we could get to that later 469 00:33:36,338 --> 00:33:40,658 But you see in order to get to your point you have to you have to believe a lot of weird things 470 00:33:40,658 --> 00:33:41,857 So first of all, yeah 471 00:33:41,857 --> 00:33:43,937 The four or five things that you already said you agreed 472 00:33:44,338 --> 00:33:48,677 We jettison those and then you have to have a monopoly. You have to have like a half monopoly 473 00:33:49,477 --> 00:33:54,357 And then you also have to discard the fact that like right now the miners aren't collecting any of these fees 474 00:33:54,437 --> 00:33:58,037 So that you might think the mev person is getting all the fees 475 00:33:58,997 --> 00:34:04,917 But in our today world with no BIP300 301 at all or even in the hypothetical future 476 00:34:06,037 --> 00:34:08,357 Arc world or whatever spider chain world 477 00:34:09,318 --> 00:34:11,318 They're not getting any of the fees 478 00:34:11,638 --> 00:34:12,518 so 479 00:34:12,518 --> 00:34:14,758 There's no like parallel belief. You know what I mean? 480 00:34:14,917 --> 00:34:16,917 Even if it's all custodial lightning 481 00:34:16,997 --> 00:34:20,518 Like there's no parallel belief that says oh the miners feel cut out 482 00:34:20,758 --> 00:34:25,958 So now they have an incentive to like become a custodial lightning node and take all the money 483 00:34:25,958 --> 00:34:28,357 You know what? I mean? No one makes a parallel argument at all 484 00:34:29,078 --> 00:34:32,057 They just kind of only trot it out for this bizarrely specific 485 00:34:32,758 --> 00:34:34,758 Set of circumstances so they either think 486 00:34:38,677 --> 00:34:43,318 I just wanted to say I was very frustrated with this four weeks because 487 00:34:43,958 --> 00:34:48,198 I just couldn't get a clear picture of like the motivations and 488 00:34:48,917 --> 00:34:50,097 and the 489 00:34:50,097 --> 00:34:52,597 incentives and the actions of of how 490 00:34:53,718 --> 00:34:56,357 some people imagine this to like 491 00:34:57,958 --> 00:35:03,797 Like almost certainly lead to full vertical integration and larger pool dominance. So 492 00:35:04,437 --> 00:35:05,638 I 493 00:35:05,638 --> 00:35:08,037 I really struggled with this and I told a lot 494 00:35:08,838 --> 00:35:10,677 with people in 495 00:35:10,677 --> 00:35:12,037 dms and 496 00:35:12,037 --> 00:35:19,177 And try to try to get like like like a sense of how this could possibly happen how this makes sense whatsoever 497 00:35:20,198 --> 00:35:20,997 and 498 00:35:20,997 --> 00:35:23,158 That's why I said that I I finally 499 00:35:23,797 --> 00:35:27,898 Thought I I had something like like there was a plausible 500 00:35:29,078 --> 00:35:30,258 uh 501 00:35:30,258 --> 00:35:36,597 Scenario, uh painted that I could say. All right. All right. Let's see then what paul says about that 502 00:35:39,477 --> 00:35:41,477 Well, sure and 503 00:35:41,477 --> 00:35:47,477 But we I have to like if i'm really being a hundred percent honest with the audience 504 00:35:49,237 --> 00:35:52,437 I know that all this is not none of this is really real. This is like 505 00:35:53,958 --> 00:35:55,958 People critics of drivechain 506 00:35:56,278 --> 00:36:03,638 They've moved the goalposts so many times already and now they're just searching for any possible thing that they could say 507 00:36:04,977 --> 00:36:08,198 something and in shinobi's case, it doesn't even matter if the 508 00:36:08,997 --> 00:36:11,718 If the costs are very large like 509 00:36:12,597 --> 00:36:15,477 And when they're infinite with liquid or if they're small 510 00:36:16,758 --> 00:36:20,357 With cheap drivechain or if they're they involve t-shirts 511 00:36:21,078 --> 00:36:24,037 It just doesn't matter just try to come up with something to say 512 00:36:24,917 --> 00:36:26,917 And that is the true 513 00:36:27,537 --> 00:36:31,237 Explanation of why these complaints appear it is not because people are worried about 514 00:36:31,718 --> 00:36:37,158 I don't think don't think he's trying to hide this. So he really really dislikes bandwidth mining 515 00:36:37,398 --> 00:36:39,398 uh, and and he 516 00:36:40,278 --> 00:36:44,677 He thinks that the the hash rate escrow actually makes it somehow worse 517 00:36:45,158 --> 00:36:52,518 So somehow it would be more popular and powerful if it was combined with hash rate escrow. That's what he believes 518 00:36:54,838 --> 00:36:58,518 You know so well that he otherwise he runs straight into the 519 00:36:59,557 --> 00:37:00,357 the 520 00:37:00,357 --> 00:37:03,318 the death now for his argument, which is that already 521 00:37:03,958 --> 00:37:09,638 We do merge mining with namecoin and it's totally unpreventable and it was invented by satoshi and we've been doing it for 10 years 522 00:37:10,197 --> 00:37:12,197 And we still do it every day. So 523 00:37:12,997 --> 00:37:17,477 He knows that he has to come up with he can't just say merge mining is bad. He has to say 524 00:37:18,758 --> 00:37:21,477 By me improving it i'm making it bad 525 00:37:22,837 --> 00:37:24,837 He is trying to find uh 526 00:37:25,638 --> 00:37:27,638 points of attack on it, but I 527 00:37:27,878 --> 00:37:33,798 Don't think that's a huge problem for bitcoin and uh, it may be very inconvenient for you, but 528 00:37:34,597 --> 00:37:37,878 Actually might on the long run actually like help. I don't know 529 00:37:38,278 --> 00:37:44,117 well, of course, I mean like in one sense, this is a healthy peer review, but in another sense, it's not because 530 00:37:45,398 --> 00:37:46,678 We should 531 00:37:46,678 --> 00:37:51,477 Search whenever we have a theory we should try to find all the reasons. It might be false 532 00:37:52,438 --> 00:37:57,878 But we should also find out search for all the reasons it might be true because those two things are actually the same thing 533 00:37:58,837 --> 00:38:00,038 there's no way of 534 00:38:00,038 --> 00:38:06,038 You know what? I mean? Like it either has purchased on the truth or falsehood or it's irrelevant. So yes, it's kind of 535 00:38:06,597 --> 00:38:08,197 obviously 536 00:38:08,197 --> 00:38:10,597 you know, I mean you could go down the list and you could say 537 00:38:11,477 --> 00:38:13,317 well bitcoin 538 00:38:13,317 --> 00:38:15,317 sure, it works, but 539 00:38:15,638 --> 00:38:18,278 you could like I had an example about like, um 540 00:38:18,918 --> 00:38:21,957 If the two different times like you could divide all the land in 541 00:38:24,038 --> 00:38:26,997 You could divide all the land in a country up into the boroughs 542 00:38:27,077 --> 00:38:30,837 But what are you going to do about the line between the two boroughs and you could say, okay 543 00:38:31,798 --> 00:38:36,438 We'll put the boroughs on rivers and then you say well, what if what about when a boat? 544 00:38:37,317 --> 00:38:39,237 crosses the line and 545 00:38:39,237 --> 00:38:42,597 You could just keep like, you know splitting hairs and find it like focusing on 546 00:38:43,558 --> 00:38:46,518 Extremely irrelevant things when it's really just does this theory 547 00:38:47,237 --> 00:38:54,438 Do the work that we wanted to do but now let's turn to the uh, the case of the reorg whether or not the 548 00:38:56,197 --> 00:39:01,477 Whether or not the legitimate hashers like the shot 256d people 549 00:39:02,918 --> 00:39:08,197 If they have a huge advantage over the lbmm people and if that even matters at all 550 00:39:09,398 --> 00:39:11,638 because I think that they don't I think 551 00:39:12,438 --> 00:39:14,438 all that matters is 552 00:39:15,317 --> 00:39:22,918 So before we get into that, um, can we play that little game that I I was uh, 553 00:39:23,558 --> 00:39:25,558 Okay, sure 554 00:39:25,558 --> 00:39:30,438 so so if we if if you take it like, uh, they're button and um, 555 00:39:30,997 --> 00:39:36,758 And assume that when we somehow should try to solve this issue of um, 556 00:39:37,697 --> 00:39:39,477 atomicity 557 00:39:39,477 --> 00:39:41,317 um 558 00:39:41,317 --> 00:39:44,678 Do you think there could be done something about that and um 559 00:39:46,038 --> 00:39:51,258 More specifically I I see kind of like two possibilities for this immediately 560 00:39:52,197 --> 00:39:53,237 one is 561 00:39:53,237 --> 00:39:58,597 very simple and actually it would be like a sidechain consensus thing which says 562 00:39:59,237 --> 00:40:01,817 Instead of you know being freely reorgable 563 00:40:03,317 --> 00:40:05,317 You are saying that only only 564 00:40:06,744 --> 00:40:08,344 Only bad 565 00:40:08,344 --> 00:40:12,104 Invalid blocks can be reorg. Otherwise, they have to be reorg on L1 566 00:40:12,664 --> 00:40:16,424 But of course this this is a fatal flaw that that you already mentioned 567 00:40:17,544 --> 00:40:20,744 And I don't really know what to do with the block withholding attack 568 00:40:21,464 --> 00:40:23,463 So yes 569 00:40:24,024 --> 00:40:27,383 Block withholding is is would kill that idea 570 00:40:29,543 --> 00:40:31,543 Right, you just put on the block 571 00:40:31,944 --> 00:40:33,303 Yeah 572 00:40:33,303 --> 00:40:38,824 Yeah, because if it's obviously like trolling if it's obviously a bad hash or it's a bad block 573 00:40:38,904 --> 00:40:44,744 Then the sidechain nodes can safely ignore it and you don't have this whole weak, uh subjectivity problem 574 00:40:45,304 --> 00:40:51,464 But the moment they can't tell if that hash so you would have to prove a negative basically and that's impossible 575 00:40:51,703 --> 00:40:53,863 It's sort of the attacker just lands two blocks 576 00:40:54,183 --> 00:41:00,824 One is valid one is invalid and it just withholds them both and you don't know which is which and you can't 577 00:41:01,624 --> 00:41:03,224 build on either and 578 00:41:03,224 --> 00:41:05,224 They just they just wait 579 00:41:06,744 --> 00:41:13,623 It's really sad because it would actually maximize the value of the sidechain for the for the users because the value is in 580 00:41:14,104 --> 00:41:16,583 in in large part in blockchains is in the 581 00:41:17,123 --> 00:41:19,123 the immutability 582 00:41:19,604 --> 00:41:26,583 immutability and uh, and uh the finality, uh of of these uh things and uh, if you 583 00:41:27,144 --> 00:41:28,424 Know 584 00:41:28,424 --> 00:41:34,343 Actually, which you can say do a counterparty did and say each basically each transaction is its own 585 00:41:35,383 --> 00:41:37,383 It's like its own block or something like that 586 00:41:38,023 --> 00:41:40,023 where 587 00:41:40,424 --> 00:41:46,744 Then they're all in L1, but then you get no extra block space so that also kind of ruins it 588 00:41:48,904 --> 00:41:54,504 Yeah, so so like I said, I I really like that first one but somehow would need to find 589 00:41:55,064 --> 00:42:01,464 And probably has no clean and easy solution, uh to to try to deal with the block withholding attack because 590 00:42:02,184 --> 00:42:05,703 Someone would actually need to so one way to deal with it 591 00:42:05,784 --> 00:42:11,943 If it happens infrequently, then of course the sidechain could uh, like soft fork 592 00:42:12,504 --> 00:42:14,904 uh that uh block is invalid, but 593 00:42:15,303 --> 00:42:20,423 This is a huge problem and a very bad ux and if it happens frequently because someone is trolling with it 594 00:42:20,423 --> 00:42:26,264 Then it will ruin everyone's day. So that's it. And the other way to do it would be to 595 00:42:26,984 --> 00:42:27,783 uh 596 00:42:27,783 --> 00:42:30,503 try to pay the miners on the sidechain and I 597 00:42:31,064 --> 00:42:38,264 Faintly remember that shirobi suggested something like this that an spv proof would be presented to the miners that they got paid on the sidechain 598 00:42:39,064 --> 00:42:41,223 or maybe some weird scheme where 599 00:42:41,783 --> 00:42:43,783 the side 600 00:42:44,503 --> 00:42:49,704 This is what he didn't understand is the u.s dollar value equality versus the coin 601 00:42:50,023 --> 00:42:53,704 He was saying something like make it be required on L1 602 00:42:54,663 --> 00:42:56,423 to show 603 00:42:56,423 --> 00:42:58,423 The and this idea has lots of problems 604 00:42:58,744 --> 00:43:04,923 But he's saying show the whole merkle path into L2 into the L2 coinbase on L1 605 00:43:06,503 --> 00:43:09,544 So that you can prove that you're not being screwed over 606 00:43:10,023 --> 00:43:16,744 but this idea has like a 10 000 disadvantages one is every L2 must be organized in the way that 607 00:43:17,704 --> 00:43:20,663 Uh that L1 can understand which is already 608 00:43:21,443 --> 00:43:24,744 Horrible, but the other thing is it doesn't account for any of the mev 609 00:43:24,824 --> 00:43:28,583 Of course the uh the stuff that is about other value 610 00:43:29,383 --> 00:43:32,344 In the sidechain block that's unrelated to payouts in the coinbase 611 00:43:32,904 --> 00:43:34,503 So this is also terrible 612 00:43:34,503 --> 00:43:39,624 but the most important reason of all is that he doesn't take they must float in fact because 613 00:43:40,104 --> 00:43:43,464 A sidechain newly minted sidechain coins are not equal 614 00:43:44,104 --> 00:43:49,624 They have their own block maturity and then they have to be withdrawn so they're not equal in value 615 00:43:50,744 --> 00:43:53,803 To like just because the sidechain's coinbase has 109 btc 616 00:43:54,423 --> 00:43:56,264 That does not mean that 617 00:43:56,264 --> 00:43:57,783 You should pay 618 00:43:57,783 --> 00:43:59,783 109 it may be much less 619 00:44:00,163 --> 00:44:04,663 Objectively much less for everyone. So it has to float. It has to be like an auction system 620 00:44:05,783 --> 00:44:08,344 And it has to be the little delta there 621 00:44:09,303 --> 00:44:11,943 I have no one knows exactly what it is even 622 00:44:12,824 --> 00:44:13,544 so 623 00:44:13,544 --> 00:44:15,544 So I I think that just shows 624 00:44:16,104 --> 00:44:17,943 That he didn't understand it 625 00:44:17,943 --> 00:44:19,943 Because he was going further in the wrong direction 626 00:44:20,344 --> 00:44:25,643 He's saying like we must prove but the true value of the sidechain block could be in excess of like 109 627 00:44:26,184 --> 00:44:28,023 coins because there could have been 628 00:44:28,023 --> 00:44:31,703 Theoretically, there could be any amount of mbv 3 000 coins worth of mbv 629 00:44:32,504 --> 00:44:37,784 Yeah, so then it should really be 3 109 paid on L1 or 3 108 630 00:44:38,823 --> 00:44:40,823 But that just shows you 631 00:44:41,303 --> 00:44:45,464 This would only work if the mbv comes from like some layer 3 and it 632 00:44:45,684 --> 00:44:49,543 Expressed as fees on layer 2 and then it could possibly work, but you are right 633 00:44:50,583 --> 00:44:56,583 I did I think it's interesting to look at these starter exercises like a little side note that 634 00:44:57,543 --> 00:45:01,323 All right, blind match mining has these these properties 635 00:45:02,823 --> 00:45:06,363 The the user experience wise like the the finality 636 00:45:07,323 --> 00:45:13,564 That that results in this that that they reorg rather easily they are basically secured by 637 00:45:14,203 --> 00:45:15,964 the the 638 00:45:15,964 --> 00:45:17,964 the fees paid on the on the 639 00:45:19,244 --> 00:45:25,244 Yeah, and and uh, and uh on the miner side the blind merge mining side you have this property that 640 00:45:25,964 --> 00:45:27,964 It seems to me that you just can't make 641 00:45:28,684 --> 00:45:34,203 The the L1 bit and the add to payout atomic like it's not it doesn't seem 642 00:45:34,603 --> 00:45:35,564 You see 643 00:45:35,564 --> 00:45:37,564 the competition 644 00:45:38,043 --> 00:45:39,724 Is the best way of 645 00:45:39,724 --> 00:45:43,724 Of dealing with that because it automatically takes into account every single difference 646 00:45:44,523 --> 00:45:46,703 You know what? I mean? It takes into account the inconvenience 647 00:45:47,404 --> 00:45:50,844 Avoiding the L2 maturity period and then the withdrawal period 648 00:45:51,884 --> 00:45:58,464 So it discounts the fees, but it would also automatically take it into account the mbv. So it's just automatically 649 00:45:59,423 --> 00:46:04,083 Resetting everything and the miners benefit because just like with any competition 650 00:46:04,784 --> 00:46:11,023 Not everyone is exactly an equal human being they may be equal, you know peers on the peer-to-peer network 651 00:46:11,664 --> 00:46:15,103 But the individual people are different. So some are more confident 652 00:46:15,823 --> 00:46:19,923 Or more patient they're more confident and be able to do the L2 to L1 withdrawal 653 00:46:20,464 --> 00:46:22,303 They're more patient 654 00:46:22,303 --> 00:46:24,564 For whatever reason because of their own circumstance 655 00:46:25,523 --> 00:46:30,083 Uh, or they are better at getting mev those people will naturally bid the most 656 00:46:30,643 --> 00:46:34,004 Though those people who are already running a sidechain node, maybe for some other reason 657 00:46:34,083 --> 00:46:36,823 Maybe they have a website where they have a block explorer 658 00:46:37,444 --> 00:46:41,203 They sell ads there. So they already have a node. They already do merchant whatever whatever it is 659 00:46:42,404 --> 00:46:45,444 They already have the node. So to them the marginal cost of 660 00:46:46,164 --> 00:46:48,164 The node is free 661 00:46:48,483 --> 00:46:54,244 And they may be so they so the miners on L1 they'll automatically be getting the best the two best bids 662 00:46:54,964 --> 00:46:56,964 In the whole world of which only take one 663 00:46:57,684 --> 00:46:59,684 And this is a far superior 664 00:47:00,244 --> 00:47:01,844 method of 665 00:47:01,844 --> 00:47:03,844 aligning the incentives between the two 666 00:47:04,303 --> 00:47:05,763 parties 667 00:47:05,763 --> 00:47:11,523 this simple act of competition is does far more than any convoluted thing where you spv prove the 668 00:47:12,083 --> 00:47:14,083 the actual number in the coinbase 669 00:47:14,564 --> 00:47:20,083 You what you are saying is basically that you believe the market would price it 670 00:47:20,944 --> 00:47:22,323 adequately 671 00:47:22,323 --> 00:47:27,684 Like find find a way to price it again. It's not no market the dynamics are anyone 672 00:47:28,643 --> 00:47:30,884 It's a simple auction, you know, everyone bids 673 00:47:32,483 --> 00:47:36,004 The only one bid will win the miners will pick the highest bid 674 00:47:37,043 --> 00:47:39,923 And those are very, you know, those are very straightforward ingredients, I think 675 00:47:42,724 --> 00:47:44,724 You know what I mean so like what else could happen 676 00:47:45,444 --> 00:47:47,444 Yeah, I I understand. Uh 677 00:47:47,603 --> 00:47:50,083 What you are trying to say? I I think 678 00:47:50,964 --> 00:47:52,964 I think it's not 679 00:47:53,444 --> 00:47:55,284 It's not going through 680 00:47:55,284 --> 00:47:57,284 I'm, pretty sure it's not going through 681 00:47:57,523 --> 00:48:02,643 The the way you are saying it. I think a lot of people don't understand why 682 00:48:03,444 --> 00:48:06,884 why this is necessarily happening and 683 00:48:08,083 --> 00:48:15,284 And why wouldn't the miners try to play selfish games because for example, um, when you have 684 00:48:16,083 --> 00:48:18,083 so let's say 685 00:48:18,164 --> 00:48:21,684 Finding the the best mev is like 686 00:48:22,803 --> 00:48:29,603 Really a high specialization high capital investment game. Let's say this is the assumption 687 00:48:29,684 --> 00:48:36,724 So it's not sure it's even worth talking about if if close to the maximum fees can be extracted by simply running the sidechain 688 00:48:36,724 --> 00:48:40,884 No, i'm not sure. It's the whole thing is worth discussing because 689 00:48:41,764 --> 00:48:43,764 in that world 690 00:48:44,324 --> 00:48:46,324 I'm pretty sure that that 691 00:48:47,124 --> 00:48:49,124 These others 692 00:48:50,004 --> 00:48:53,283 Imagined outcomes just just won't happen but 693 00:48:54,483 --> 00:48:57,124 uh, if if you if you think that 694 00:48:57,524 --> 00:49:02,644 Someone can indeed by just doing this whole thing best and putting a lot of money into it 695 00:49:03,124 --> 00:49:05,684 and that can include like subsidizing it, so 696 00:49:06,803 --> 00:49:08,004 if 697 00:49:08,004 --> 00:49:09,684 people like 698 00:49:09,684 --> 00:49:10,803 keep 699 00:49:10,803 --> 00:49:16,963 Keep bidding and then keep getting reward and not getting rewards and then this in this game 700 00:49:17,363 --> 00:49:22,644 It's entirely possible that someone better capitalized for a short period of time taking huge losses 701 00:49:23,124 --> 00:49:29,124 They can win like a five-year period when they are the undisputed king of the hill and that's kind of another 702 00:49:29,684 --> 00:49:35,124 Approach to this whole thing that the people might not just be interested in in their profit 703 00:49:35,423 --> 00:49:42,264 Profitability for like the next block, but they might actually want to secure like a long period of very high profitability 704 00:49:43,124 --> 00:49:50,324 For taking a temporary loss that that's also I believe part of the the field people are just very bad at uh, like 705 00:49:51,264 --> 00:49:53,524 Describing this whole thing clearly, I think 706 00:49:57,764 --> 00:50:00,483 Right, but would you fair to say is it fair for me to say that 707 00:50:01,603 --> 00:50:03,603 I mean you believe me when I say that 708 00:50:04,163 --> 00:50:06,163 They're 709 00:50:07,043 --> 00:50:09,043 I mean like what do you think of 710 00:50:09,843 --> 00:50:12,244 The situation now having listened to what I have to say 711 00:50:14,564 --> 00:50:15,524 I 712 00:50:15,524 --> 00:50:16,884 I honestly 713 00:50:16,884 --> 00:50:23,764 Uh, like don't know for the reason that I don't know enough about what is going on at realm 714 00:50:24,324 --> 00:50:25,603 like how 715 00:50:25,603 --> 00:50:32,564 How copter intensive is finding mev there? What is the state of the competition and centralization there? 716 00:50:33,283 --> 00:50:36,483 And and with the searchers and and stuff like that 717 00:50:37,124 --> 00:50:43,603 I I don't understand that whole world and um that that kind of gets in the way of of trying to 718 00:50:44,324 --> 00:50:48,644 Imagine this how it could play out in in the drivechain context 719 00:50:49,524 --> 00:50:51,124 because uh 720 00:50:51,124 --> 00:50:53,124 people are 721 00:50:53,363 --> 00:50:54,803 Seem very 722 00:50:54,803 --> 00:51:00,163 Very, you know set in their ways and and their base assumptions and that's another thing about drivechains 723 00:51:00,644 --> 00:51:02,644 So people coming at it from 724 00:51:03,824 --> 00:51:06,644 Assumptions basically on how people will behave 725 00:51:07,204 --> 00:51:08,723 uh in the future 726 00:51:08,723 --> 00:51:15,363 Uh or in general will come to entirely different conclusion if they look at the same rule set. That's another thing 727 00:51:16,084 --> 00:51:17,043 um 728 00:51:17,043 --> 00:51:23,923 So I I don't find what you are saying implausible, but I don't find what they are saying implausible either totally 729 00:51:26,803 --> 00:51:29,363 Uh, well sure, but I mean didn't you just agree with me about 730 00:51:30,803 --> 00:51:32,803 All five of those five 731 00:51:34,084 --> 00:51:36,324 Things any of which would have made it 732 00:51:38,483 --> 00:51:41,704 A moot point what the mev was 733 00:51:50,963 --> 00:51:52,963 Uh 734 00:51:54,004 --> 00:51:56,403 No, because I again lost my headset 735 00:51:57,124 --> 00:51:59,124 So 736 00:51:59,283 --> 00:52:02,084 Um, yes, I guess you would say maybe the first one 737 00:52:03,204 --> 00:52:05,204 The node costs won't be large 738 00:52:05,923 --> 00:52:08,004 Maybe the searcher cost will be large 739 00:52:08,723 --> 00:52:09,524 Yeah, yeah 740 00:52:09,524 --> 00:52:14,803 so so I I don't think the the the net net net node cost in that sense that 741 00:52:15,444 --> 00:52:17,843 The node that everyone can run the node software 742 00:52:18,084 --> 00:52:22,244 I don't think that will be expensive and I don't think that will be prohibitive in any way 743 00:52:22,723 --> 00:52:29,684 I think a sidechain that is too expensive node is kind of a failure and kind of pointless, but that's my personal opinion 744 00:52:31,444 --> 00:52:33,444 All right might as well 745 00:52:33,764 --> 00:52:39,444 But I don't know how high the cost for math searchers can get because that entirely depends on what 746 00:52:39,684 --> 00:52:42,264 Insane casinos people build on these sidechains 747 00:52:42,884 --> 00:52:46,244 maybe alex can uh, if he is up for it, maybe he can 748 00:52:46,644 --> 00:52:49,923 Uh tell us about what he sees because he's is much more 749 00:52:50,324 --> 00:52:57,283 Worse than the ethersphere than than I am. I i'm generally not interested in defy and and stuff like this 750 00:52:57,444 --> 00:52:59,603 and yeah, but did you not look at my 751 00:53:00,244 --> 00:53:01,043 the uh 752 00:53:01,043 --> 00:53:06,644 The pictures I sent about the searcher is the person who would bid and so then you have their weird 753 00:53:06,803 --> 00:53:08,803 You have to have your weird quasi monopoly 754 00:53:10,144 --> 00:53:11,603 scenario 755 00:53:11,603 --> 00:53:16,963 You just need to you need there to be you see why wouldn't there be two searchers because the searchers are making money in 756 00:53:16,963 --> 00:53:18,803 return for doing nothing 757 00:53:18,803 --> 00:53:19,923 You know what? I mean? 758 00:53:19,923 --> 00:53:23,524 If they keep a premium then that means someone else could do what they do 759 00:53:24,324 --> 00:53:26,324 And charge less of a premium 760 00:53:27,043 --> 00:53:29,283 They make a bid that is slightly higher. Yeah, so 761 00:53:30,723 --> 00:53:33,463 Since anyone can bid in three or one there really can't be a monopoly 762 00:53:34,343 --> 00:53:41,463 If one searcher has like a hundred million dollar and another searcher has like a five billion dollar to secure the next 763 00:53:41,863 --> 00:53:43,863 and years of dominance 764 00:53:44,264 --> 00:53:45,144 then 765 00:53:45,144 --> 00:53:49,463 I think the assumption is that the one with the five million dollars will 766 00:53:50,103 --> 00:53:54,264 uh will win he will be able to outbid the other and the other will 767 00:53:54,824 --> 00:54:01,384 Be disgusted with no returns on his activity and capital investments and and and just give up and leave 768 00:54:02,024 --> 00:54:04,024 That's kind of the assumption 769 00:54:04,184 --> 00:54:05,543 and also the assumption 770 00:54:05,543 --> 00:54:10,184 Anything that one searcher does another searcher could do and if it's if one of them 771 00:54:10,744 --> 00:54:15,944 Requires 100 million dollars worth of capital then they pay opportunity costs equal to that 772 00:54:16,744 --> 00:54:18,504 capital investment 773 00:54:18,504 --> 00:54:19,944 and so if they 774 00:54:19,944 --> 00:54:25,303 that's just as likely to be a disadvantage as it is to be an advantage if you didn't spend 100 million dollars on 775 00:54:26,343 --> 00:54:30,103 Bitcoin or on whatever iBonds, but instead you spent it on this 776 00:54:31,384 --> 00:54:38,343 Yeah, so basically the the better capitalized searcher can just spend 200 million dollars on 777 00:54:38,824 --> 00:54:39,704 on 778 00:54:39,704 --> 00:54:43,863 crowding the other one out of the market and the other assumption regarding this is 779 00:54:44,423 --> 00:54:45,704 that if someone 780 00:54:45,704 --> 00:54:46,504 uh 781 00:54:46,504 --> 00:54:53,704 or like a either a miner that pretends to be like multiple pools because we established that you don't actually know how many uh, 782 00:54:54,264 --> 00:54:55,704 how many pools are 783 00:54:55,704 --> 00:54:58,504 but what portion of the hash rate is controlled by one person or 784 00:54:58,903 --> 00:55:04,504 Or what pools are controlled by one person or one coalition or one cartel or whatever you want to say 785 00:55:04,584 --> 00:55:07,863 so if a significant chunk of the hash rate actually 786 00:55:09,064 --> 00:55:11,064 like tries to actively make 787 00:55:13,144 --> 00:55:18,343 External searchers unprofitable then they have pretty good equipment 788 00:55:18,903 --> 00:55:23,704 They are well positioned to do that as well. And again, this might absolutely not make sense 789 00:55:23,783 --> 00:55:25,783 So I I can 790 00:55:31,783 --> 00:55:33,384 This is like 791 00:55:33,384 --> 00:55:36,983 This could be fun to talk about of course, but it's you know, yeah, I think 792 00:55:37,543 --> 00:55:40,024 So it does does not yeah, I think I can add 793 00:55:41,624 --> 00:55:48,103 Just quickly, um, but I don't know if it's that relevant. Uh, I think that there's some game theoretical for the 794 00:55:48,903 --> 00:55:53,064 searchers where they can grief any other searcher and uh 795 00:55:53,303 --> 00:55:57,463 Like if somebody's uh attempting to do mev they can say hey listen 796 00:55:57,543 --> 00:56:00,343 You either join us or we will make sure you're we will 797 00:56:01,064 --> 00:56:05,064 Outbid your mev and just give that money over to you know, the validators instead of us 798 00:56:05,863 --> 00:56:12,824 This way everybody's forced to join one coalition of of mev. I think that something like that goes on on ethereum 799 00:56:13,064 --> 00:56:14,024 I don't remember 800 00:56:14,024 --> 00:56:19,783 Even that though is I think that that's plausible because I think first of all that's because of ethereum has a bad design 801 00:56:19,863 --> 00:56:22,264 where you have to pay fees even for things that 802 00:56:23,064 --> 00:56:25,463 Don't go through and I I don't see that 803 00:56:26,343 --> 00:56:30,663 Having a future just because it's a terrible idea. This is for the user. So I think people will 804 00:56:31,384 --> 00:56:33,384 eventually replicate the 805 00:56:34,343 --> 00:56:38,423 Ethereum ideas that are good on their own sidechains that just don't have any gas fee 806 00:56:40,343 --> 00:56:42,343 At all, but that's a complete separate point 807 00:56:42,644 --> 00:56:45,624 Interestingly, even if that is the case that it's winner take all 808 00:56:46,744 --> 00:56:51,403 It still doesn't necessarily mean that there's no competition. It just makes it more unstable 809 00:56:53,144 --> 00:56:56,184 Because let's say you're the winner and you extract a huge premium 810 00:56:56,663 --> 00:57:00,264 And you expect the premium every 12 seconds or whatever it is every day 811 00:57:02,103 --> 00:57:06,423 Uh, so you're getting a lot of money this is like a magic money tree for you of like eight 812 00:57:07,463 --> 00:57:10,264 Million dollars a day or whatever. I don't know. I'm just making it up 813 00:57:11,304 --> 00:57:13,304 The thing is that you know 814 00:57:13,384 --> 00:57:20,024 The laws of economics can still accommodate competition in that scenario because someone just they just need to go to a bank and say listen 815 00:57:20,904 --> 00:57:23,784 I'll give you this this these people are making eight million 816 00:57:24,583 --> 00:57:28,583 We can crowd them out and take all the eight million for ourselves 817 00:57:29,624 --> 00:57:32,904 Will be the new number one and i'll give you the bank 818 00:57:33,624 --> 00:57:36,583 Six million dollars a day and I only want two million dollars a day 819 00:57:37,304 --> 00:57:41,063 And the bank says, oh, okay. Sure take all the money you need. Well, I think and then 820 00:57:41,624 --> 00:57:46,823 It's not like i'm doing is they're making sure that nobody will profit unless they join them 821 00:57:47,463 --> 00:57:48,823 And at their own detriment 822 00:57:48,823 --> 00:57:53,223 So it's like if there's a hundred dollars to be made on mev and somebody else tries to compete 823 00:57:53,384 --> 00:57:58,524 They will make sure that 99 of that or full the full hundred will instead go to validators 824 00:57:59,463 --> 00:58:05,144 Unless people join that their pool and do math to be them and then they'll share the profits. So so it's like 825 00:58:05,703 --> 00:58:07,703 Yeah, but that's not the point though 826 00:58:09,144 --> 00:58:12,583 Yeah, that's well, yeah during the period in which the two compete 827 00:58:13,463 --> 00:58:15,304 Maybe they're maybe neither of them get it 828 00:58:15,304 --> 00:58:18,103 But that's the point is the point is you just have to outlast the other person 829 00:58:18,183 --> 00:58:21,384 You see what I mean? It's just kind of an assumption that just says someone will be number one 830 00:58:22,983 --> 00:58:27,463 So the point that's the point where you go to the bank you say listen we can outlast them you just give us 831 00:58:28,504 --> 00:58:32,983 You don't you go to whatever goldman sachs and you tell them you guys don't have any good ideas around here 832 00:58:33,463 --> 00:58:36,664 For investments, but i've got one for you calculate the interest rate 833 00:58:37,784 --> 00:58:39,784 And then you go to them and you say this is the plan 834 00:58:40,264 --> 00:58:44,583 And then they say okay, we'll fund it and then you're the number one guy so 835 00:58:45,384 --> 00:58:47,384 there's no like 836 00:58:47,384 --> 00:58:52,583 I that's true that this is like what you might call friction, but it's not you know, and I think even it's just 837 00:58:53,384 --> 00:58:55,384 This is only because of uh 838 00:58:57,863 --> 00:58:59,863 Badly designed ethereum 839 00:58:59,863 --> 00:59:06,904 Stuff that this scenario even rises and right now that miners are not getting any of this transaction fee because BIP300 is itself censored 840 00:59:07,144 --> 00:59:09,144 Yeah, so you're very correct 841 00:59:09,943 --> 00:59:15,384 Very correctly said that the the game there when there is there is a competition and with 842 00:59:15,943 --> 00:59:21,784 With such a reward that you might actually be the dominant searcher for the next four or five years 843 00:59:22,424 --> 00:59:25,863 Possibly that's your goal that that is huge amount of money 844 00:59:25,863 --> 00:59:29,544 You will be able to take short-term losses if you are well capitalized 845 00:59:30,103 --> 00:59:34,904 If if you have a business plan for this or we have the funding for this and then 846 00:59:34,904 --> 00:59:39,624 We have the funding for this and again, there is a part of the argument 847 00:59:39,703 --> 00:59:44,744 I think it ties back to that that if someone controls a very significant chunk of the hash shape then 848 00:59:45,304 --> 00:59:50,664 They have more control over the outcome and then they might be able to take 849 00:59:51,044 --> 00:59:58,264 Short-term losses better on or smaller short-term losses for for trying to achieve this long-term dominance. I just wanted this to 850 00:59:58,904 --> 01:00:00,904 to explain 851 01:00:01,037 --> 01:00:03,037 How it could possibly 852 01:00:03,277 --> 01:00:09,517 Get into that situation whatsoever that we are talking about like full vertical integration and 853 01:00:10,317 --> 01:00:12,317 and and the large 854 01:00:13,517 --> 01:00:15,517 Poor dominance 855 01:00:15,517 --> 01:00:21,917 I'm trying my best to to argue for that a little bit or or make it plausible so that we can discuss it 856 01:00:22,237 --> 01:00:24,237 You 857 01:00:26,797 --> 01:00:31,517 Yeah, but basically at this point what it has assumed is it has saying assume that we 858 01:00:32,797 --> 01:00:34,637 write something 859 01:00:34,637 --> 01:00:39,696 Into existence that has this exact property that it rewards 860 01:00:41,036 --> 01:00:42,316 the 861 01:00:42,316 --> 01:00:44,316 larger hashers 862 01:00:45,917 --> 01:00:47,917 That's kind of like well, okay 863 01:00:49,277 --> 01:00:51,277 In that scenario then I guess it would 864 01:00:52,797 --> 01:00:54,797 um, but 865 01:00:55,117 --> 01:00:59,757 Then we are we are we are at the point I guess where you tell us why that is wrong 866 01:01:02,877 --> 01:01:06,877 Uh, well, yeah, I don't think that that is 867 01:01:09,117 --> 01:01:11,117 The 868 01:01:12,077 --> 01:01:14,397 At this point it's sort of getting a little too 869 01:01:16,717 --> 01:01:18,717 Um 870 01:01:19,197 --> 01:01:21,676 Like we have gone like down this road of like 871 01:01:22,397 --> 01:01:25,217 No one cares about scalability privacy 872 01:01:26,316 --> 01:01:28,636 No one cares about smart contracts. They have a use 873 01:01:29,276 --> 01:01:33,596 We're like this is like the thing. This is like the point where we say we divide the country into 874 01:01:34,877 --> 01:01:39,837 Into zones and then what do we do with the you know, this is like extreme 875 01:01:41,117 --> 01:01:46,577 Hunting down to like some some tiny detail that is cannot possibly have any relevance 876 01:01:49,676 --> 01:01:52,636 Because just because if if someone has an 877 01:01:53,356 --> 01:01:57,916 Advantage, this is the same thing as before is if you have an advantage because your hash rate is large 878 01:01:58,477 --> 01:02:01,437 Then it could just this ends up being the two pools of 50 879 01:02:03,117 --> 01:02:06,797 Scenario that already doesn't make any difference because of the pool hopping 880 01:02:07,596 --> 01:02:10,876 Yeah, so the problem with this the problem with this all is 881 01:02:12,397 --> 01:02:14,397 I don't think 882 01:02:14,397 --> 01:02:16,076 Think 883 01:02:16,076 --> 01:02:18,236 If you if you try to sell that 884 01:02:19,357 --> 01:02:21,357 I don't think uh 885 01:02:21,357 --> 01:02:27,197 People will be very receptive. So I I think the general I know I agree that that's that's horrible 886 01:02:29,036 --> 01:02:31,036 Yeah, but that's also because 887 01:02:31,277 --> 01:02:34,796 people believe a lot of false things right now and I don't know it's just like 888 01:02:35,837 --> 01:02:39,117 I don't think that they because what they think is 889 01:02:39,997 --> 01:02:45,436 It's it's very ironic that the people who worry about large pools are the same people who would say 890 01:02:46,156 --> 01:02:47,997 in 2017 891 01:02:47,997 --> 01:02:49,997 we proved to the world that 892 01:02:50,397 --> 01:02:52,397 you know, like miners are 893 01:02:53,917 --> 01:02:55,277 Uh 894 01:02:55,277 --> 01:02:57,277 Subordinate to nodes or whatever 895 01:02:57,277 --> 01:02:59,277 so 896 01:03:02,236 --> 01:03:04,956 Right, so ironically they'd be sort of wrong both times 897 01:03:06,076 --> 01:03:08,076 negatively like diagonally because 898 01:03:08,637 --> 01:03:11,357 The reason that it doesn't matter if all the hash rate is in 899 01:03:11,997 --> 01:03:13,596 two pools 900 01:03:13,596 --> 01:03:19,436 is because the the only thing the pool can do is censor transaction or do some kind of reorg or some other 901 01:03:20,397 --> 01:03:22,076 kind of mischief 902 01:03:22,076 --> 01:03:23,357 and 903 01:03:23,357 --> 01:03:30,637 That is exactly what won't happen if there is vigilance on the pools. So that's why the quantity of pools has never mattered 904 01:03:31,516 --> 01:03:38,876 But but again, this is because this is the searching for your car keys under the lamp light or whatever issue where 905 01:03:39,516 --> 01:03:41,676 The data on pools is available 906 01:03:42,717 --> 01:03:44,717 The hash rate is estimable 907 01:03:45,596 --> 01:03:47,436 So people can make a pie chart 908 01:03:47,436 --> 01:03:51,596 so they just decided to make a pie chart and everyone is in their head everyone is thinking about like 909 01:03:52,557 --> 01:03:55,997 A corporation, uh boardroom or like a succession or something 910 01:03:56,637 --> 01:03:58,637 they're thinking that 911 01:03:59,596 --> 01:04:05,197 You know once it's 51 percent or 50 percent then we're all doomed and so 912 01:04:06,217 --> 01:04:09,436 unfortunately, even though these people know the talking points about 913 01:04:10,156 --> 01:04:12,156 Miners not really having a lot of power 914 01:04:12,637 --> 01:04:14,236 they 915 01:04:14,236 --> 01:04:17,437 Don't really understand the talking points. So that's too bad 916 01:04:17,837 --> 01:04:20,956 but I agree with you that it wouldn't be a persuasive if I said that type of thing, but 917 01:04:22,157 --> 01:04:27,516 yeah, i'm not sure I mentioned because I wanted to say like two things at the beginning and 918 01:04:28,157 --> 01:04:33,837 I think I only I said the the second one the first one just occurred to me is 919 01:04:34,717 --> 01:04:37,756 Basically the way I came to look at the drivechain 920 01:04:38,696 --> 01:04:40,476 situation 921 01:04:40,476 --> 01:04:43,437 and all the restringing and worrying and 922 01:04:44,696 --> 01:04:47,997 Debating if this is the best thing we could do or whatever 923 01:04:48,796 --> 01:04:51,617 So I came to the conclusion that if it can't be demonstrated 924 01:04:53,516 --> 01:04:54,717 That 925 01:04:54,717 --> 01:04:56,636 It will harm 926 01:04:56,717 --> 01:05:00,636 Or make the outcome worse for those people who do not explicitly opt in 927 01:05:01,516 --> 01:05:04,236 Then I believe there is no moral ground for opposing it 928 01:05:04,717 --> 01:05:07,117 That's kind of the conclusion I came to 929 01:05:07,676 --> 01:05:14,557 And that is why I kind of focus on these things, you know, I try to to work. Uh around these these uh, 930 01:05:15,356 --> 01:05:21,516 Yeah, I know but haven't I beaten you down yet? I mean we didn't we haven't we just exhausted it all now you can now fully 931 01:05:22,476 --> 01:05:24,636 Sit back in your chair and you can sign off on this 932 01:05:25,437 --> 01:05:27,437 Thumbs off. I am I am 933 01:05:28,877 --> 01:05:33,117 I am satisfied with how this turned out. I will listen back make notes think about it 934 01:05:33,437 --> 01:05:35,516 We can talk about something guys if you want 935 01:05:36,717 --> 01:05:38,636 Okay, great 936 01:05:38,636 --> 01:05:42,236 Okay, great flavor has his hand up at this exact time. So 937 01:05:43,437 --> 01:05:46,397 Um, hey paul. I was just wondering if you could uh, 938 01:05:47,117 --> 01:05:53,437 Speak a little bit to the article that came out yesterday in bitcoin magazine. Um, oh my gosh 939 01:05:53,676 --> 01:05:58,956 I thought it was so bad. What was that? This is like some kind of i'm being drugged or something. Is this candid camera? 940 01:05:59,837 --> 01:06:02,076 I just don't get it at all. It seemed like it really 941 01:06:03,117 --> 01:06:04,717 um 942 01:06:04,717 --> 01:06:09,997 Uh, well, you know, the whole thing is based on miners the those three authors 943 01:06:11,437 --> 01:06:13,537 They I don't think they understand 944 01:06:14,497 --> 01:06:17,057 What BIP300 asks miners to do 945 01:06:18,416 --> 01:06:20,256 which is 946 01:06:20,256 --> 01:06:25,617 Like I think that they think that they are supposed to be getting involved like this vote word. I think is unfortunate now 947 01:06:27,217 --> 01:06:31,696 Because when I wrote BIP300 reddit was very big and I was just thinking upvote downvote 948 01:06:33,377 --> 01:06:36,657 That's kind of what it really was, um, but instead I think 949 01:06:37,377 --> 01:06:42,817 The idea of like miners voting on the fate of each sidechain is like they'll be petitioned people will 950 01:06:43,696 --> 01:06:45,696 people will go to them and say 951 01:06:46,176 --> 01:06:48,576 Vote for my withdrawal, please. Here's why 952 01:06:49,136 --> 01:06:51,136 Then someone will say no vote for my withdrawal 953 01:06:51,777 --> 01:06:56,016 That's not what happens at all in the slightest the software automatically computes 954 01:06:57,136 --> 01:06:59,377 The single withdrawal for every single person 955 01:07:00,657 --> 01:07:03,617 It's the same hash for everyone in the sidechain 956 01:07:04,256 --> 01:07:06,097 in each three month 957 01:07:06,097 --> 01:07:12,576 Epoch, and this is what actually does make me think we really should we have testnet software now, but we should probably have 958 01:07:13,856 --> 01:07:18,097 we should probably activate BIP300 on some chain because 959 01:07:19,777 --> 01:07:23,377 If we had it working in the wild people would at least know, you know, they would at least see 960 01:07:24,016 --> 01:07:28,897 The basics of how it works, you know, and it's just not the same if people read the bib text 961 01:07:28,976 --> 01:07:30,817 I think they just don't get it 962 01:07:30,817 --> 01:07:33,136 But I don't know. This is a rambling answer. But yeah 963 01:07:33,696 --> 01:07:39,956 I'm wondering like if you were to play the devil's advocate for for the argument about regulatory 964 01:07:40,736 --> 01:07:42,256 pressure 965 01:07:42,256 --> 01:07:44,576 imagine a hypothetical scenario where 966 01:07:45,217 --> 01:07:47,856 one of these people is running a drivechain and 967 01:07:48,497 --> 01:07:54,337 They're experiencing some kind of regulatory pressure. What what does that look like for them? And I think that 968 01:07:54,897 --> 01:07:56,897 This question is misconceived 969 01:07:56,897 --> 01:08:01,456 So this is the type of thing that makes me wish we had bitcoin uncensored back because they would have just laughed 970 01:08:01,617 --> 01:08:03,617 I I this this type of thing came up 971 01:08:04,016 --> 01:08:05,617 where someone said 972 01:08:05,617 --> 01:08:07,617 Oh, they'll only do 973 01:08:08,576 --> 01:08:15,057 With like white listed UTXOs they read the news and then they both just laughed and they said they'd have no idea what mining is 974 01:08:15,136 --> 01:08:15,937 for 975 01:08:15,937 --> 01:08:18,576 and then they practically just moved on to the next topic because 976 01:08:19,217 --> 01:08:23,217 People in that era were very well educated on bitcoin. And so they knew better 977 01:08:24,016 --> 01:08:25,136 which is 978 01:08:25,136 --> 01:08:31,217 If bitcoin has to compete bitcoin, there's just a cold this does not has nothing to do with what anyone wants or prefers 979 01:08:31,937 --> 01:08:34,097 about the law or about justice or about 980 01:08:35,056 --> 01:08:38,897 Morality or power or whatever if bitcoin does not have 981 01:08:39,857 --> 01:08:42,917 A a private angle a politically subversive 982 01:08:43,616 --> 01:08:45,616 edge 983 01:08:45,696 --> 01:08:48,897 It will go to zero and that's absolutely true 984 01:08:50,177 --> 01:08:53,636 Um, and the reason why is if it fully competes 985 01:08:55,777 --> 01:08:57,777 In on being compliant 986 01:08:58,576 --> 01:09:01,456 It will lose to venmo wechat pay etc 987 01:09:01,537 --> 01:09:04,737 Also the tech will lose the tech is also not as good 988 01:09:05,616 --> 01:09:06,897 the tech 989 01:09:06,897 --> 01:09:11,857 Because the tech used by wechat pay or whatever is just going to be some mysql database or something 990 01:09:12,496 --> 01:09:14,737 and the blockchain technology is much more 991 01:09:16,256 --> 01:09:20,677 It's much more awkward and it only works because it is existing in an environment 992 01:09:21,136 --> 01:09:26,357 Where the entire engineering design for bitcoin is that it will have its own independent existence 993 01:09:27,316 --> 01:09:33,477 Will have its own independent existence and that's why it won't go the way that liberty reserve went where there's one server 994 01:09:33,636 --> 01:09:36,917 And it was also just shut off. So that's the entire story of bitcoin 995 01:09:37,556 --> 01:09:39,397 is that 996 01:09:39,397 --> 01:09:40,436 the 997 01:09:40,436 --> 01:09:42,996 it will have achieved censorship resistance by 998 01:09:44,756 --> 01:09:46,756 Shirking or even uh 999 01:09:47,157 --> 01:09:48,657 denying 1000 01:09:48,657 --> 01:09:50,657 regulatory 1001 01:09:50,756 --> 01:09:51,876 Influence 1002 01:09:51,876 --> 01:09:55,477 so the regulatory influence is basically just those people are asking them to censor and 1003 01:09:56,116 --> 01:09:57,477 They either 1004 01:09:57,477 --> 01:09:58,917 conform 1005 01:09:58,917 --> 01:10:02,196 and they lose out on money and someone else gets the transaction fees or they 1006 01:10:03,076 --> 01:10:04,597 defy 1007 01:10:04,597 --> 01:10:06,597 but the argument that 1008 01:10:06,677 --> 01:10:08,837 Bitcoin must be compliant is just you know 1009 01:10:10,037 --> 01:10:12,037 It's kind of a dirty 1010 01:10:12,116 --> 01:10:14,116 trick because most people 1011 01:10:14,436 --> 01:10:16,436 refuse to be 1012 01:10:17,316 --> 01:10:20,516 Totally honest about about this because it sounds so shady 1013 01:10:21,477 --> 01:10:25,157 And so it's actually it's just a horrible thing. It's a very unbitcoin thing 1014 01:10:25,237 --> 01:10:28,196 It's basically the equivalent of you know, craig s writes suing people 1015 01:10:29,157 --> 01:10:32,037 because it forces people to kind of talk a little bit more openly about 1016 01:10:32,277 --> 01:10:37,636 Things that that most people are too cowardly to speak openly about or they want to be more evasive about 1017 01:10:38,677 --> 01:10:44,116 But just the logic of bitcoin is just that it's something that works in the darknet market use cases and all the lightnet 1018 01:10:44,277 --> 01:10:49,316 market use cases and that's why it will eventually take over via network effect 1019 01:10:50,116 --> 01:10:52,037 And that's the 1020 01:10:52,037 --> 01:10:53,316 That's the whole 1021 01:10:53,316 --> 01:10:54,837 premise of bitcoin 1022 01:10:54,837 --> 01:10:59,316 So the whole premise of bitcoin is that it will hit the darknet markets and that that is the edge it has over 1023 01:10:59,876 --> 01:11:01,876 WeChat pay or cbdc 1024 01:11:02,597 --> 01:11:07,397 And so the fact that that person doesn't know that and the fact that they highlighted in an article and the fact they critique me 1025 01:11:08,357 --> 01:11:14,837 In completely the wrong way. I mean this used to be the thing that would just get you laughed out of a bitcoin conversation 1026 01:11:14,917 --> 01:11:15,797 so 1027 01:11:15,797 --> 01:11:17,076 I think it 1028 01:11:17,076 --> 01:11:19,076 It should not be 1029 01:11:19,316 --> 01:11:21,316 Steel-manned at all. It should not be 1030 01:11:21,876 --> 01:11:23,876 Set aside lightly. It should be 1031 01:11:24,277 --> 01:11:26,277 thrust aside with 1032 01:11:26,677 --> 01:11:28,597 extreme force 1033 01:11:28,597 --> 01:11:35,397 It's a terrible thing to even bring up and it's uh, it's it just speaks to the person's total inability to comprehend bitcoin 1034 01:11:36,196 --> 01:11:40,516 And so you're saying not only would drivechains drivechains wouldn't 1035 01:11:41,237 --> 01:11:45,797 Increase attack vectors or create more regulatory pressure any more than there would be 1036 01:11:46,357 --> 01:11:49,477 Already and that if they did even if they did 1037 01:11:50,436 --> 01:11:52,837 You really wouldn't have an option but to try 1038 01:11:54,196 --> 01:11:56,037 in fact because 1039 01:11:56,037 --> 01:11:58,917 It's possible that something like the zcash sidechain might 1040 01:11:59,797 --> 01:12:04,597 um, but that would be a good thing in fact, this would be what would decentralize mining so to speak because 1041 01:12:05,237 --> 01:12:10,516 Uh some any miner with like a mailing address is like registered. They would not want to touch the fees 1042 01:12:12,196 --> 01:12:14,196 Excuse me, they would not want to touch the fees 1043 01:12:15,157 --> 01:12:18,196 From this thing and as a result, it would it would be the anti 1044 01:12:19,316 --> 01:12:26,837 Like registration effect would be the zcash sidechain and its economic activity. That's possible. I mean, sorry. I have to sneeze again 1045 01:12:29,237 --> 01:12:31,237 Ah my gosh, excuse me 1046 01:12:31,316 --> 01:12:33,237 anyway, um 1047 01:12:33,237 --> 01:12:35,237 so it's possible that 1048 01:12:36,196 --> 01:12:43,397 It wouldn't be drivechain itself. It would be you know, the fact that creativity had been unleashed and people could do subversive things 1049 01:12:44,436 --> 01:12:46,516 It's really zcash itself. That is the truly 1050 01:12:47,136 --> 01:12:49,076 Innovative and subversive 1051 01:12:49,076 --> 01:12:50,917 Direction that this would take 1052 01:12:50,917 --> 01:12:52,917 Is the zk-snark privacy technology? 1053 01:12:54,037 --> 01:12:56,357 Now that if if that happened, that would be a good thing 1054 01:12:57,556 --> 01:13:00,756 that guy talking about you know, if your senator is on the phone or something like 1055 01:13:01,636 --> 01:13:06,357 If the senator is on the phone with anyone influential in bitcoin 1056 01:13:06,996 --> 01:13:08,037 then 1057 01:13:08,037 --> 01:13:10,196 The coin, you know, it doesn't have a future 1058 01:13:11,157 --> 01:13:15,897 And again, this is not it has nothing to do with what anyone prefers this is a simple calculation 1059 01:13:17,076 --> 01:13:18,277 of 1060 01:13:18,277 --> 01:13:20,436 comparative advantage among the different 1061 01:13:21,556 --> 01:13:23,556 coins and payment networks because 1062 01:13:24,357 --> 01:13:26,516 If you think the network effect is all that matters 1063 01:13:27,636 --> 01:13:29,076 then 1064 01:13:29,076 --> 01:13:32,837 The us dollar is going to win easily. It's going to crush everything in its path 1065 01:13:33,636 --> 01:13:35,636 And bitcoin will lose 1066 01:13:35,797 --> 01:13:40,037 And if you think that only features matter then we'll have an altcoin universe because 1067 01:13:40,756 --> 01:13:42,756 people keep inventing new features 1068 01:13:43,477 --> 01:13:45,477 And we'll have multi-coin pluralism 1069 01:13:46,677 --> 01:13:50,996 Um, but that's not true network effects do matter so there's some mix 1070 01:13:52,357 --> 01:13:55,956 and in bitcoin's case the the edge that it has is in the 1071 01:13:56,996 --> 01:14:04,677 Privacy darknet market smart contracts, you know by smart contract. I mean something that the senator calls and the senator can't get 1072 01:14:06,116 --> 01:14:09,717 You know rewritten or whatever. That's what makes it smart, you know 1073 01:14:10,436 --> 01:14:14,857 That no one can it has nothing to do with the senator. No one can has its own independent existence 1074 01:14:15,956 --> 01:14:21,717 so the whole thing is like what was just horribly misconceived and just very disappointing and it honestly just speaks to 1075 01:14:22,756 --> 01:14:26,456 How far the community has fallen I think unfortunately 1076 01:14:29,477 --> 01:14:34,116 And so you're saying that it is it is possible maybe not likely but 1077 01:14:34,756 --> 01:14:40,196 It's a roadblock or it's like an impasse that the bitcoin is going to have to go through if it wants to become 1078 01:14:41,237 --> 01:14:43,237 What people say it should be? 1079 01:14:44,116 --> 01:14:46,116 uh 1080 01:14:46,917 --> 01:14:50,917 Yeah, I mean our options are we stay very niche and we don't really bother anyone 1081 01:14:52,357 --> 01:14:54,357 and 1082 01:14:54,516 --> 01:14:57,157 I think that's that leads to death that leads to uh 1083 01:14:57,956 --> 01:15:00,616 Being worth zero dollars per coin eventually 1084 01:15:01,496 --> 01:15:03,496 Or we get really big 1085 01:15:03,496 --> 01:15:08,537 I mean a lot of people wanted so certainly I think what the large blockers had in mind 1086 01:15:09,177 --> 01:15:11,496 Was a sort of uber like strategy 1087 01:15:12,616 --> 01:15:17,816 That you know as far as anyone knows it might have worked at this point. I don't know everyone people didn't like it at the time 1088 01:15:18,056 --> 01:15:19,496 but 1089 01:15:19,496 --> 01:15:22,376 What they had in mind was like we'll just get so big so quick 1090 01:15:23,016 --> 01:15:27,177 It will be too difficult for every government in the world to ban us all at the same time 1091 01:15:27,816 --> 01:15:29,816 And we'll just grow grow grow 1092 01:15:30,936 --> 01:15:36,297 And it would be like uber and like, you know draft kings and fan duel where it's technically illegal when it started 1093 01:15:37,576 --> 01:15:39,576 but then it just 1094 01:15:39,636 --> 01:15:41,636 captured the 1095 01:15:42,056 --> 01:15:44,136 The hearts and minds of the people 1096 01:15:45,417 --> 01:15:48,696 Which um, you know, I think that was certainly a viable 1097 01:15:49,737 --> 01:15:52,696 That was you know, that's certainly one strategy that might have worked 1098 01:15:53,256 --> 01:15:55,256 But we certainly didn't go in that direction 1099 01:15:56,376 --> 01:15:58,217 Uh 1100 01:15:58,217 --> 01:15:59,417 Anyway 1101 01:15:59,417 --> 01:16:02,777 um, yeah, I do think that it's kind of like 1102 01:16:04,857 --> 01:16:06,857 The 1103 01:16:08,537 --> 01:16:11,256 What exactly is their plan to 1104 01:16:13,496 --> 01:16:15,657 Only write software that is 1105 01:16:17,337 --> 01:16:22,696 Approved by the like us congress because then again it loses its independence 1106 01:16:22,696 --> 01:16:25,496 so this is why this is why I say these people are equal to 1107 01:16:26,376 --> 01:16:27,977 the 1108 01:16:28,217 --> 01:16:31,256 They're basically completely equivalent to the infinite size 1109 01:16:31,977 --> 01:16:35,177 large blocker L1 people in the block size war where they said 1110 01:16:35,737 --> 01:16:36,777 well the 1111 01:16:36,777 --> 01:16:40,777 Instead of hanging on to the properties of bitcoin and make it unique 1112 01:16:42,136 --> 01:16:46,777 And make it special and which make it valuable. We will sacrifice those 1113 01:16:47,977 --> 01:16:51,756 For some kind of like temporary quick fix quick convenience 1114 01:16:53,657 --> 01:16:57,256 So, yeah, I thought the regulatory angle was very bad and I thought the angle about 1115 01:16:58,696 --> 01:17:00,537 Miners don't want to get involved 1116 01:17:00,537 --> 01:17:05,577 All right, that was silly in so many ways. I think they just didn't understand at all how it worked and they also 1117 01:17:06,376 --> 01:17:09,016 they failed to put two and two together when they said stuff like 1118 01:17:09,577 --> 01:17:11,336 sure, maybe we'll get 1119 01:17:11,336 --> 01:17:13,577 much much much more revenue by doing this, but 1120 01:17:14,297 --> 01:17:17,256 on the other hand, we might have to do a little bit of work and it's like 1121 01:17:18,376 --> 01:17:21,897 Okay, how about you subtract, you know the revenue from the costs and then 1122 01:17:22,937 --> 01:17:24,937 And then decide 1123 01:17:25,336 --> 01:17:27,336 So I was disappointed by that 1124 01:17:27,976 --> 01:17:33,897 I'm wondering, uh, so then have you had conversations with miners? Uh, could you share anecdotes? 1125 01:17:35,336 --> 01:17:37,336 No, I have lots of um 1126 01:17:37,496 --> 01:17:39,496 Yeah, I have uh, i'm in 1127 01:17:39,577 --> 01:17:42,136 Chat rooms with miners. I have talked to miners 1128 01:17:43,577 --> 01:17:45,577 I talked to my zoom miners 1129 01:17:47,256 --> 01:17:49,256 So I think 1130 01:17:50,376 --> 01:17:52,376 Many of the miners, you know are 1131 01:17:53,976 --> 01:17:56,057 Uh, they don't you know want to 1132 01:17:58,216 --> 01:18:00,216 Get involved with something 1133 01:18:00,777 --> 01:18:06,297 Like this that is contentious just for the same reason that anyone wouldn't but also we have many miners who 1134 01:18:07,976 --> 01:18:13,016 Are supportive publicly some and we have 1135 01:18:14,937 --> 01:18:19,336 Uh, I think you know, I think it's a matter of time like, um have other 1136 01:18:20,376 --> 01:18:22,537 You know like meetings with miners lined up 1137 01:18:23,417 --> 01:18:28,797 So I think it is just I I'd only started talking to miners like in july 25th 1138 01:18:30,216 --> 01:18:34,136 And then a lot of this crazy stuff happened and then i've been very busy recently 1139 01:18:35,417 --> 01:18:36,376 um 1140 01:18:36,376 --> 01:18:38,376 and so 1141 01:18:38,376 --> 01:18:39,897 uh, i'm 1142 01:18:39,897 --> 01:18:45,256 I've been really busy talking because we've gotten a lot of attention ever since miners first found out about it 1143 01:18:46,457 --> 01:18:48,057 late july 1144 01:18:48,057 --> 01:18:49,817 july august 1145 01:18:49,817 --> 01:18:54,216 And then we had a kind of crazy september as we all know this idea 1146 01:18:55,336 --> 01:18:57,336 really went from being 1147 01:18:57,817 --> 01:19:03,336 Kind of a not that talked about but then in september it started to get very very talked about and so that's 1148 01:19:04,297 --> 01:19:06,697 That month has only just ended and now i'm here for 1149 01:19:08,216 --> 01:19:14,136 Bitcoin amsterdam and for other things. So so, uh, it's kind of just started but um 1150 01:19:16,136 --> 01:19:18,616 Yeah, it's very weird some of the miners who are 1151 01:19:20,697 --> 01:19:26,616 Uh against are very very close also like, uh, I don't want to like name everything but like 1152 01:19:27,256 --> 01:19:29,256 some of the miners want 1153 01:19:30,616 --> 01:19:31,897 Uh 1154 01:19:31,897 --> 01:19:37,016 To basically have sidechains, but they i'm not sure if they want to activate BIP300. So 1155 01:19:37,657 --> 01:19:39,657 Some of them are in like a weird 1156 01:19:39,657 --> 01:19:41,657 position of being kind of close 1157 01:19:42,136 --> 01:19:44,136 I don't know how much I can share or should say 1158 01:19:45,336 --> 01:19:47,177 but um 1159 01:19:47,177 --> 01:19:49,177 Do you think miners understand? 1160 01:19:49,577 --> 01:19:51,577 Right chains. Do you think they understand? 1161 01:19:52,777 --> 01:19:57,657 I think they don't understand them as well as you do moon settler, but I think that 1162 01:19:58,697 --> 01:20:00,697 they 1163 01:20:00,141 --> 01:20:06,221 I think what really happened was they were very surprised by the arguments against like for example, I did show them 1164 01:20:07,101 --> 01:20:09,681 the blockstream paper the mining centralization 1165 01:20:10,941 --> 01:20:13,261 three section 3.4 or 4.3 1166 01:20:14,781 --> 01:20:16,540 One of those 1167 01:20:16,540 --> 01:20:21,501 And in it, it basically just says that some miners have an advantage over other miners and they'll push the other miners out 1168 01:20:22,460 --> 01:20:25,021 and they they people couldn't believe that that was 1169 01:20:26,061 --> 01:20:28,061 That was the whole case against 1170 01:20:28,120 --> 01:20:32,141 Sidechains and why blockstream abandoned them and then I was showing them the math on 1171 01:20:33,261 --> 01:20:35,261 the fee revenues they could earn 1172 01:20:36,301 --> 01:20:37,981 which is 1173 01:20:37,981 --> 01:20:40,540 Much much more than they currently earn total 1174 01:20:42,381 --> 01:20:45,921 So and they had already gotten a taste of additional fee revenues from ordinals 1175 01:20:47,741 --> 01:20:49,741 So that was like those were like 1176 01:20:49,981 --> 01:20:51,981 Some things that were there like okay 1177 01:20:52,461 --> 01:20:57,261 And yeah, I think that weirdly what's on their mind is of course the having coming up 1178 01:20:58,221 --> 01:21:02,860 They're all thinking about that. You know, they're all thinking my revenue is going to get cut in half. So what should I do? 1179 01:21:03,660 --> 01:21:05,420 if anything 1180 01:21:05,420 --> 01:21:07,341 so I think that that 1181 01:21:07,341 --> 01:21:10,301 I think that this is uh, I think a lot of them think that probably 1182 01:21:12,221 --> 01:21:14,221 That would be around the time 1183 01:21:14,780 --> 01:21:16,221 to 1184 01:21:16,221 --> 01:21:21,341 They all have this uh, this uh survivalist mindset know that that they 1185 01:21:22,140 --> 01:21:25,661 They need to survive the worst case scenario in their 1186 01:21:26,460 --> 01:21:31,420 Business plans that that's what they are focusing on. I imagine pretty much right now 1187 01:21:33,581 --> 01:21:38,701 Yeah, I mean I think some of them if I had to guess also I think some of them are 1188 01:21:41,341 --> 01:21:43,341 Some of them would say something along the lines of 1189 01:21:44,061 --> 01:21:47,820 We miners have never done anything wrong and we have invested 1190 01:21:48,701 --> 01:21:50,701 We have all this money at stake. So 1191 01:21:52,061 --> 01:21:55,021 Why is it the case that people doubt? 1192 01:21:56,540 --> 01:21:59,261 Us which is a very good question, I think 1193 01:22:00,621 --> 01:22:03,581 This is all blown. This is all stuff from the scaling war that it's like 1194 01:22:04,941 --> 01:22:07,341 Taking out new and bizarre dimensions for no reason 1195 01:22:08,621 --> 01:22:10,300 yeah, I mean 1196 01:22:10,300 --> 01:22:12,300 the way I remember there were 1197 01:22:12,781 --> 01:22:14,380 some very 1198 01:22:14,380 --> 01:22:19,820 Very big boats made by the big bookers or people on the big booker camp 1199 01:22:20,460 --> 01:22:26,401 That I kind of suspect the loudest most obnoxious ones were the ones that ended up on bse 1200 01:22:27,580 --> 01:22:31,020 Not even bch. Um, so those people 1201 01:22:32,460 --> 01:22:34,141 said stuff like 1202 01:22:34,141 --> 01:22:35,501 you know 1203 01:22:35,501 --> 01:22:41,740 Miners will obviously come to us and you will go into that spiral and you have no say in it and you can 1204 01:22:42,460 --> 01:22:46,781 Screw your node and whatever so that that was the general sentiment 1205 01:22:47,341 --> 01:22:53,501 Around the time as I remember and uh, and uh, I think a lot of people got like 1206 01:22:54,460 --> 01:22:55,580 really 1207 01:22:55,580 --> 01:22:58,641 Angry and resentful about all that imagery 1208 01:23:00,701 --> 01:23:02,701 Well, yes, certainly we can go over 1209 01:23:03,660 --> 01:23:07,600 all the long many details of that history, but mainly involving 1210 01:23:09,100 --> 01:23:15,580 A bitcoin unlimited being signaled with nine percent after scaling three thus preventing SegWit from activating via bip nine 1211 01:23:16,781 --> 01:23:19,841 Which set off this whole miners versus developers? 1212 01:23:21,501 --> 01:23:23,501 War in 2017 1213 01:23:23,740 --> 01:23:25,421 and 1214 01:23:25,421 --> 01:23:28,481 You know how level-headed and and forgiving 1215 01:23:29,901 --> 01:23:31,901 The top developers are 1216 01:23:36,380 --> 01:23:41,901 Um, everyone is it all ended up happily ever after 1217 01:23:42,701 --> 01:23:46,300 So just to put a put a cap on what you were saying about, uh, 1218 01:23:46,460 --> 01:23:49,820 The article it's just that it's it's actually the concern about 1219 01:23:50,460 --> 01:23:52,300 regulatory pressure 1220 01:23:52,300 --> 01:23:54,701 Uh doesn't have that much merit and it's kind of missing the point 1221 01:23:55,501 --> 01:23:56,861 altogether 1222 01:23:56,861 --> 01:24:00,701 It may be a concern for certain miners who have made the mistake 1223 01:24:01,261 --> 01:24:06,380 Again, quite parallel to the large walker case where they they they may have set things up a certain way 1224 01:24:08,300 --> 01:24:10,300 Banking on 1225 01:24:10,300 --> 01:24:12,221 Banking on 1226 01:24:12,221 --> 01:24:19,260 Maybe they are set up for something. They can only get if they are registered, but that's their mistake other miners 1227 01:24:20,460 --> 01:24:25,980 Can and will put them out of business if they rely on that type of thing. So we want miners to compete 1228 01:24:27,020 --> 01:24:29,020 against the right people 1229 01:24:29,501 --> 01:24:31,341 in the right ways 1230 01:24:31,341 --> 01:24:33,341 for the right reasons 1231 01:24:33,661 --> 01:24:36,941 So that is what we want any kind of competition can can turn 1232 01:24:37,661 --> 01:24:39,661 ugly, you know what I mean like 1233 01:24:40,061 --> 01:24:45,341 Two people can be competing over a girl and it can be honorable or they could end up like killing each other or you know 1234 01:24:45,341 --> 01:24:47,341 What I mean, or you could compete in a business 1235 01:24:47,901 --> 01:24:50,381 You could open two bakeries across the street 1236 01:24:51,260 --> 01:24:53,520 And it can be an honorable competition 1237 01:24:54,860 --> 01:24:58,381 Or it can be horrible. You know what I mean? You have on one hand you have 1238 01:24:59,661 --> 01:25:06,621 Like whatever margaret thatcher and and then if the competition goes a different way you have like adolf hitler, you know, it's like 1239 01:25:07,180 --> 01:25:09,180 Both are examples of 1240 01:25:10,300 --> 01:25:14,621 People trying to like compete with like a vision. So the miners we want the miners to be 1241 01:25:16,221 --> 01:25:18,221 We don't want the miners to compete on who can 1242 01:25:19,101 --> 01:25:20,541 placate 1243 01:25:20,541 --> 01:25:22,221 some random 1244 01:25:22,221 --> 01:25:28,541 Government official of a completely random country. That's not what we want them to compete on. We in fact we want them to compete on 1245 01:25:29,901 --> 01:25:31,901 Putting as many transactions 1246 01:25:32,700 --> 01:25:34,700 Into the blocks they mine as possible 1247 01:25:34,700 --> 01:25:36,700 Including all the merged mine blocks 1248 01:25:37,260 --> 01:25:38,381 so 1249 01:25:38,381 --> 01:25:39,661 if 1250 01:25:39,661 --> 01:25:44,460 Somebody was asking you let's say there's somebody who's on the fence about drivechain and they're concerned about 1251 01:25:45,020 --> 01:25:49,020 The livelihood of their business in the event that they signal support for drivechain 1252 01:25:49,020 --> 01:25:54,621 I mean, what what could you tell them besides you know, this is what you signed up for you have to deal with it 1253 01:25:56,541 --> 01:25:58,221 What can you be more specific 1254 01:25:58,221 --> 01:26:02,300 As far as like if there's somebody worried about regulatory pressure like was put forward in that 1255 01:26:02,300 --> 01:26:06,700 That article but somebody was more favorable to you and they're asking for advice like well 1256 01:26:06,700 --> 01:26:09,980 How should I navigate, you know this situation if it's going to invite? 1257 01:26:10,781 --> 01:26:16,860 If i'm going to be, you know making more money and getting regulatory pressure. I mean, is there any way for people to navigate that? 1258 01:26:17,740 --> 01:26:19,740 More smartly miners. Yes 1259 01:26:19,901 --> 01:26:26,621 I thought I put that in my response to the article. I had like one sentence about so what you can do is with 1260 01:26:26,860 --> 01:26:28,860 Mining you don't need to run 1261 01:26:29,420 --> 01:26:31,420 the any sidechain node at all 1262 01:26:32,621 --> 01:26:36,140 So you don't have to run the z-side node or any nodes 1263 01:26:36,700 --> 01:26:39,901 You don't want you still collect the fee revenues. You're not 1264 01:26:40,860 --> 01:26:42,860 at a disadvantage now you have to 1265 01:26:43,661 --> 01:26:45,020 mine 1266 01:26:45,020 --> 01:26:46,221 the 1267 01:26:46,221 --> 01:26:49,821 The middleman transaction that connects them. So there's someone who's paying you 1268 01:26:50,860 --> 01:26:52,860 All the z-side 1269 01:26:53,821 --> 01:26:55,821 All the z-side 1270 01:26:55,901 --> 01:26:57,901 Money is coming in 1271 01:26:58,460 --> 01:27:01,341 And maybe that sidechain slot number six and maybe it pays 1272 01:27:02,061 --> 01:27:04,061 two bitcoin every 10 minutes 1273 01:27:04,700 --> 01:27:07,281 And you're getting the L1 transaction base, whatever 1.999 1274 01:27:09,580 --> 01:27:14,460 You have to mind that one but then you just I think what you would do is you would just organize a defense around 1275 01:27:15,420 --> 01:27:19,260 about around independence and decentralization and you just you would tell 1276 01:27:19,980 --> 01:27:23,180 Whoever it is or whatever and the senator calls and you'd say listen 1277 01:27:24,541 --> 01:27:27,821 If I if I don't mind this the only thing that's going to happen is 1278 01:27:28,541 --> 01:27:30,941 I'm, i'm going to lose out on two bitcoin 1279 01:27:31,661 --> 01:27:33,180 every 10 minutes 1280 01:27:33,180 --> 01:27:37,661 Someone else will mind the block 10 minutes later. So it won't achieve anything 1281 01:27:38,700 --> 01:27:41,020 And the only thing you're going to do is put me out of business 1282 01:27:42,200 --> 01:27:44,200 Eventually if I keep losing this to btc 1283 01:27:45,420 --> 01:27:46,541 so 1284 01:27:46,541 --> 01:27:49,341 I think that's just what you say and uh, that's the truth 1285 01:27:50,700 --> 01:27:51,740 um 1286 01:27:51,740 --> 01:27:53,740 I think you would also 1287 01:27:54,061 --> 01:27:58,460 If a business person could easily just say, oh, well i'm going to weigh the advantages I get 1288 01:27:59,661 --> 01:28:01,080 for being 1289 01:28:01,080 --> 01:28:03,080 compliant with whatever 1290 01:28:03,501 --> 01:28:06,781 the government of any whatever country because you know what I mean, we say we 1291 01:28:07,260 --> 01:28:11,901 Because framing it with the u.s congressperson makes it sound very different than if we say 1292 01:28:12,541 --> 01:28:13,821 go 1293 01:28:13,821 --> 01:28:15,260 president xi 1294 01:28:15,260 --> 01:28:17,260 in china 1295 01:28:17,260 --> 01:28:20,161 Said he would murder my entire family and make me disappear 1296 01:28:21,020 --> 01:28:26,700 If I didn't do such and such or whatever vladimir putin's government, so it's like someone somewhere 1297 01:28:27,580 --> 01:28:29,580 Tells you that they want you to do something 1298 01:28:30,460 --> 01:28:31,740 um 1299 01:28:31,740 --> 01:28:32,940 you know 1300 01:28:32,940 --> 01:28:35,741 You don't automatically it's not automatically a respectable thing 1301 01:28:35,820 --> 01:28:40,861 It sounds a lot more respectable when you say u.s congressperson, of course, but so whoever it is they say 1302 01:28:41,820 --> 01:28:49,181 You don't mind the z cash sidechain and then you just you have to weigh whatever advantages you get with your relationship with this person 1303 01:28:50,140 --> 01:28:52,140 against what you lose by 1304 01:28:53,320 --> 01:28:55,901 Complying that would be my advice I suppose 1305 01:28:57,020 --> 01:28:58,301 that 1306 01:28:58,301 --> 01:29:02,140 It's possible that the north american miners pretty much made up their mind 1307 01:29:02,380 --> 01:29:08,620 Especially the publicly traded company miners. They made up their mind about that. They will comply with whatever is thrown at them 1308 01:29:09,500 --> 01:29:16,781 And in that sense they they kind of might have the that feeling that they actually could in a drivechain, uh, 1309 01:29:17,101 --> 01:29:19,101 in a successful drivechain, but 1310 01:29:19,580 --> 01:29:21,560 become disadvantaged 1311 01:29:21,560 --> 01:29:27,981 Economically, I would say this would be a very honorable way to have drivechain like not activate. You know what I mean? 1312 01:29:28,140 --> 01:29:30,140 I would say actually 1313 01:29:30,940 --> 01:29:32,940 Paul came up with this idea 1314 01:29:33,341 --> 01:29:34,940 but because 1315 01:29:34,940 --> 01:29:41,260 The bitcoin miners wanted to stay compliant and they did not want to have any risk of a z cash sidechain 1316 01:29:42,541 --> 01:29:49,020 It didn't activate on bitcoin. I would just I would stand and sort of applaud in an ironic way because I would say 1317 01:29:49,981 --> 01:29:51,981 This just proves that you know 1318 01:29:52,861 --> 01:29:55,341 Clearly the fault wasn't mine 1319 01:29:57,101 --> 01:30:00,301 You know, it's just I would just say I would just get a big kick out of that 1320 01:30:00,700 --> 01:30:02,700 I 1321 01:30:02,861 --> 01:30:07,901 Don't know it would be very weird and the that entire article was 1322 01:30:08,541 --> 01:30:11,500 To me a disappointment. I I did not 1323 01:30:12,120 --> 01:30:14,460 expect to read that, uh, but uh 1324 01:30:17,101 --> 01:30:23,020 Just thinking about what their motivation could be they they might actually not want like a 1325 01:30:24,221 --> 01:30:26,221 foreign miners, uh 1326 01:30:26,541 --> 01:30:33,440 Miners in other countries other jurisdictions to have like more bucks per terahash that that is basically 1327 01:30:34,120 --> 01:30:37,841 Economically rational if they expect they would have to comply anyhow, no 1328 01:30:48,460 --> 01:30:50,460 Okay, rio 1329 01:30:50,700 --> 01:30:55,500 Oh, hey. Hey paul. Thanks for having me up. Um, great combo and such 1330 01:30:56,060 --> 01:31:02,301 Always learning. Um, I wanted to touch back on a couple of things that were brought up agree with you on the regulatory thing 1331 01:31:03,020 --> 01:31:05,901 Uh, I I think the next hash war 1332 01:31:06,541 --> 01:31:11,101 Is not a chain split. It's compliant hash non-compliant hash and it's uh, 1333 01:31:12,060 --> 01:31:16,221 Sovereign hash versus non-sovereign hash either explicit sovereign hash 1334 01:31:16,861 --> 01:31:21,421 Uh, like, you know volcanoes from el salvador in the dream world 1335 01:31:21,820 --> 01:31:26,060 Uh, or again sovereign hash and that texas hash is compliant 1336 01:31:26,060 --> 01:31:29,500 So it's as good as sovereign hash and that's the next hash war 1337 01:31:29,500 --> 01:31:36,241 So your points are taken if people are prepared for that or aware or in denial that it's an adversarial 1338 01:31:37,260 --> 01:31:42,700 Uh environment to the standard system when you're trying to make a competitive product like bitcoin again 1339 01:31:44,221 --> 01:31:48,301 Go back and read the white paper start over do not pass go do not collect any dollars 1340 01:31:49,260 --> 01:31:52,460 Just a public service announcement the the compliant hash 1341 01:31:53,020 --> 01:31:56,781 Is all of that is a complete waste that is useless proof of work 1342 01:31:57,341 --> 01:31:59,341 because if it's all coming from 1343 01:31:59,500 --> 01:32:01,260 congress anyway, then 1344 01:32:01,260 --> 01:32:04,380 It doesn't even matter none of the proof of all the proof of work stuff is a complete 1345 01:32:05,981 --> 01:32:07,981 Energy as I can so they will simply yes 1346 01:32:08,041 --> 01:32:09,661 subsidize it to say we'll 1347 01:32:09,661 --> 01:32:13,820 Make it economical for you to not include that because we'll give you the subsidy in a different way through energy subsidy 1348 01:32:13,820 --> 01:32:20,140 Which is only further proving that the sovereigns will bend the knee to the bitcoin and math will win in the end 1349 01:32:20,140 --> 01:32:22,301 So again, it's just a sign of a positive thing in the long run 1350 01:32:22,301 --> 01:32:29,020 But again, it is coming the next hash war is sovereign hash or compliant hash purposely not being economical and me to your point 1351 01:32:29,181 --> 01:32:34,700 Not doing what you would expect a truly selfish player to do and and that will be the next hash war which is why 1352 01:32:35,181 --> 01:32:41,101 Uh, a zero knowledge proof or a z chain sidechain thing is is certainly one of the use cases and one of the things 1353 01:32:41,101 --> 01:32:44,781 that would potentially push that hash war to a different level or 1354 01:32:45,341 --> 01:32:47,500 Or make it even more moot for them to attempt it 1355 01:32:48,060 --> 01:32:51,101 but then the regulatory pressures that are spoken of in the 1356 01:32:51,981 --> 01:32:55,901 Article, I think we need to look at wrapped btc is our only 1357 01:32:56,620 --> 01:33:00,700 Scaled example all due respect to lightning again wrapped bitcoin has more tbl 1358 01:33:01,101 --> 01:33:04,060 But you do look at a federated model and the pressure put there was put 1359 01:33:04,380 --> 01:33:10,060 But you know that wrapped btc contract on ethereum does not have locks unlike most stable coins 1360 01:33:10,380 --> 01:33:14,700 They only have regulatory pressure that can put on the externals of the claim outs 1361 01:33:14,861 --> 01:33:18,541 You can still put wrap btc into a ave and get eth back out 1362 01:33:18,700 --> 01:33:20,861 They have to have the compliant people track that through 1363 01:33:21,500 --> 01:33:23,500 They can't stop it in v2 1364 01:33:23,500 --> 01:33:25,500 Which is still can't be undeployed 1365 01:33:25,801 --> 01:33:27,801 Etc. So there's you know 1366 01:33:27,820 --> 01:33:33,580 Things that make it challenging you also think about dusting that's shown to be very adversarial to oh you want to stay compliant 1367 01:33:33,580 --> 01:33:37,661 Okay, well dust point zero zero zero one eth and like all these celebrities wallet 1368 01:33:37,661 --> 01:33:43,341 So you have to block all of them too if you want to stay compliant those type of things will also occur. So 1369 01:33:44,140 --> 01:33:46,861 leaning in and allowing that to occur to show the 1370 01:33:48,120 --> 01:33:49,500 futility 1371 01:33:49,500 --> 01:33:51,500 of compliance or to either 1372 01:33:52,541 --> 01:33:58,060 Because bitcoin change or others is beneficial in my view the concerns I do have is 1373 01:33:58,940 --> 01:34:02,380 That I I do think the critiques on miner 1374 01:34:03,101 --> 01:34:04,861 power struggles 1375 01:34:04,861 --> 01:34:06,301 and miner 1376 01:34:06,301 --> 01:34:08,801 and sidechain operator collusions 1377 01:34:09,901 --> 01:34:14,640 Are newly introduced and also point to potential regulatory? 1378 01:34:15,421 --> 01:34:20,700 As tack vectors. I still think it isolates to only affect those users on the sidechain, but I do think that 1379 01:34:21,901 --> 01:34:25,341 People saying sidechain bitcoin is just as good as layer one bitcoin 1380 01:34:25,500 --> 01:34:28,781 Which would I don't believe to be true and i'm not saying people are advocating that here 1381 01:34:28,861 --> 01:34:32,301 But would be a narrative that these sidechain people would be running if we enabled it 1382 01:34:32,940 --> 01:34:35,341 Could be dangerous if people don't understand 1383 01:34:36,301 --> 01:34:38,861 How they come back. I also think that people 1384 01:34:39,500 --> 01:34:45,820 We agreed to have taproot and SegWit which was lower cost vb block space. This is the antithesis 1385 01:34:45,820 --> 01:34:49,421 This is premium costed block space slot one slot two 1386 01:34:49,901 --> 01:34:53,500 It's a premium cost because only one person can occupy that slot one here 1387 01:34:54,060 --> 01:35:00,460 Uh, so, you know if we think about we can go one direction with taproot and have discounted block space reserved or created 1388 01:35:00,940 --> 01:35:05,901 Uh, what is the problem with going the other way for premium, especially I can understand the miners saying 1389 01:35:06,301 --> 01:35:10,940 You maybe not get my full money to increase my block instead of increasing block at standard rate block wars 1390 01:35:11,341 --> 01:35:15,020 Now I want to say, okay, let's do that. But let's have some reserved area. Now. That's a premium 1391 01:35:15,260 --> 01:35:17,901 Now you don't want to go that way you were willing to go the discount route 1392 01:35:18,060 --> 01:35:21,020 Why can't go the other route is a valid point, especially into a halving 1393 01:35:22,060 --> 01:35:26,700 The last point and then i'll love to hear any responses back is the bmms the node operators 1394 01:35:26,781 --> 01:35:30,301 They're going back and forth do become the dominant people that will need the withdrawals 1395 01:35:30,620 --> 01:35:33,820 They have a natural need to they take their revenue on the sidechain 1396 01:35:33,820 --> 01:35:39,361 They pay their costs on the L1 today will be the dominant people requesting the withdrawals that is centralized withdrawals 1397 01:35:39,661 --> 01:35:45,020 Versus potentially centralized pools template operators and the people running the nodes are probably the people also 1398 01:35:45,341 --> 01:35:48,140 Pushing the L2 chain and the new features this this 1399 01:35:48,700 --> 01:35:52,541 It does provide centralization and collusion issues. I don't think it's a fault of the protocol 1400 01:35:52,620 --> 01:35:55,580 It's a fault of humanity, but that's the whole point of not putting in protocols 1401 01:35:55,580 --> 01:35:57,901 That can't be manipulated by humanity, which is the bitcoin thing 1402 01:35:57,901 --> 01:36:01,101 So I you know i'm still on the fence on the whole 300 1403 01:36:01,101 --> 01:36:05,260 But that's just a few points i'd like to cut out and i'd love any you know on any of those points any 1404 01:36:05,640 --> 01:36:08,301 Rationales or further stuff so I can continue to learn 1405 01:36:10,380 --> 01:36:12,380 Okay, well, um 1406 01:36:13,421 --> 01:36:18,140 at the end like why do you say that it's centralized withdrawals if 1407 01:36:18,700 --> 01:36:21,981 The withdrawals are concentrated in one person 1408 01:36:22,541 --> 01:36:24,380 you know what I mean because 1409 01:36:24,380 --> 01:36:29,341 What the one person could it could actually be only one person withdrawing every three months, right? 1410 01:36:29,741 --> 01:36:31,741 But there could be 1411 01:36:32,301 --> 01:36:35,260 By turning it off and not piss off the rest of the ecosystem 1412 01:36:35,341 --> 01:36:37,020 so that one person 1413 01:36:37,020 --> 01:36:42,140 Is is a centralized person that has to bribe the miner to get out because they're the only one damaged if the miners 1414 01:36:42,301 --> 01:36:44,140 Decide not to do it for you 1415 01:36:44,140 --> 01:36:46,060 Oh, well, they're the only political victim 1416 01:36:46,060 --> 01:36:48,060 but you see that's also not really the case because 1417 01:36:48,620 --> 01:36:51,601 What the what in this scenario where there's only one person withdrawing? 1418 01:36:52,700 --> 01:36:55,020 I would imagine that there's many people who want to withdraw 1419 01:36:55,901 --> 01:37:02,781 But this one person is buying up all their L2 coins and they pay in L1 coins 1420 01:37:04,380 --> 01:37:09,100 With bmm and then they want to withdraw so they're collecting all the L2 coin bases 1421 01:37:09,181 --> 01:37:13,181 They buy up everyone's L2 coins. So as you say they have a giant pile of L2 coins 1422 01:37:13,901 --> 01:37:19,100 And then they withdraw but they are providing a service for all the they themselves have 1423 01:37:19,740 --> 01:37:23,821 Maybe have tens of thousands of customers. So if this person is screwed over 1424 01:37:24,620 --> 01:37:25,980 Then 1425 01:37:25,980 --> 01:37:29,581 They they won't be able to offer the service to anyone else. And so everyone else is indirectly 1426 01:37:30,220 --> 01:37:32,801 Getting screw over even if they don't literally withdraw 1427 01:37:33,740 --> 01:37:34,941 so the 1428 01:37:34,941 --> 01:37:37,421 the withdrawal thing is kind of like 1429 01:37:38,140 --> 01:37:40,061 the BIP300 part 1430 01:37:40,061 --> 01:37:42,941 the withdrawal is only half of the withdrawal picture because 1431 01:37:44,620 --> 01:37:45,821 There is also 1432 01:37:45,821 --> 01:37:48,860 It's really just who wants to do the slow with finance that person buying up 1433 01:37:48,860 --> 01:37:52,541 Everybody's L2s and then binance is the one taking those three withdrawals 1434 01:37:52,781 --> 01:37:54,781 It sees he's in control there 1435 01:37:54,860 --> 01:37:59,500 And then he has to basically bribe the miners to say let my withdrawals go through or let's otc make a deal 1436 01:38:00,140 --> 01:38:05,740 You can get them after I bridge them through here next but they don't need any particular bribe. They just use the BIP300 1437 01:38:06,461 --> 01:38:08,461 You know what? I mean? They pay 1438 01:38:09,181 --> 01:38:13,581 L2 transaction fee they pay the L1 transaction fee same as anyone else 1439 01:38:14,220 --> 01:38:20,541 They may want to put a hefty if they're the only one they managed to shrink it down to 43 bytes on L1 1440 01:38:21,340 --> 01:38:23,760 So they might say well instead of paying the prevailing 1441 01:38:25,181 --> 01:38:31,821 What I think is the prevailing 90th percentile fee of like four dollars and 50 cents since this one withdrawal is moving 1442 01:38:32,461 --> 01:38:33,980 10 000 coins 1443 01:38:33,980 --> 01:38:35,980 i'll pay 1444 01:38:35,980 --> 01:38:37,740 You know 500 1445 01:38:37,740 --> 01:38:39,740 dollar per 1446 01:38:39,740 --> 01:38:43,901 Uh, i'll pay what is the equivalent of right, you know $500 per 220 1447 01:38:44,701 --> 01:38:46,860 The miners love it. So I shouldn't describe it as a bribe. It is 1448 01:38:47,480 --> 01:38:49,480 aggregating and maximizing 1449 01:38:51,260 --> 01:38:54,620 You know the withdrawals pay a transaction fee on each 1450 01:38:55,260 --> 01:39:02,061 Because they're cross-chain they must pay the sidechain transaction fee to qualify as a withdrawal in the sidechain and then 1451 01:39:02,620 --> 01:39:03,500 when 1452 01:39:03,500 --> 01:39:05,500 the sidechain software 1453 01:39:05,801 --> 01:39:11,020 Constructs the withdrawal transaction automatically and hashes it. This is that hash that's so important 1454 01:39:12,701 --> 01:39:14,701 When that transaction is included in L1 1455 01:39:15,980 --> 01:39:19,421 Then it must pay a transaction fee also so it has to be included in 1456 01:39:21,181 --> 01:39:25,980 Spot as well. It can't just be anywhere now when it has to be in the slot spot, right? 1457 01:39:26,220 --> 01:39:29,740 And if somebody else wants to take that yes, the withdrawals are per slot 1458 01:39:30,701 --> 01:39:37,181 No, the withdrawals are per slot and the withdrawals are global they're globally unique for everyone so whatever the withdrawal is 1459 01:39:38,301 --> 01:39:42,620 Each three months is only one withdrawal and it may it could pay out up to like 20 000 people 1460 01:39:43,740 --> 01:39:44,781 but it 1461 01:39:44,781 --> 01:39:46,781 Just needs to make it into any block 1462 01:39:47,340 --> 01:39:51,581 But that is the point then a sidechain can be attacked by a person saying on L1 1463 01:39:51,661 --> 01:39:57,421 I will always pay the most to blank out that reserve slot one so that a real slot one can never get there now 1464 01:39:57,421 --> 01:40:01,921 Again have to perpetually pay but it's about this actually cannot happen 1465 01:40:02,247 --> 01:40:05,687 I'm happy to explain this because I think it's quite interesting, but this doesn't happen 1466 01:40:06,087 --> 01:40:09,367 What happens is that L2 is what constructs? 1467 01:40:10,087 --> 01:40:12,087 This thing that will pay out 1468 01:40:12,727 --> 01:40:14,887 on L1 so the way it works is 1469 01:40:16,087 --> 01:40:22,326 There's basically each withdrawal is kind of as if there was some kind of like train or spaceship leaving a planet or train leaving 1470 01:40:22,326 --> 01:40:24,326 a train station 1471 01:40:24,326 --> 01:40:29,527 And the train takes three months to go from wherever it is, you know, new york to la 1472 01:40:30,486 --> 01:40:32,486 And uh 1473 01:40:32,486 --> 01:40:36,886 And everyone else is the next train can't leave until the first one is finished going so 1474 01:40:37,847 --> 01:40:38,726 the 1475 01:40:38,726 --> 01:40:42,807 Because you can only pull the train L1 is like pulling the train closer each time 1476 01:40:42,886 --> 01:40:47,546 We have this bucket metaphor if you watch the whiteboard video on uh on layer2labs.com 1477 01:40:48,647 --> 01:40:50,647 They're being pulled to L1 1478 01:40:51,287 --> 01:40:55,767 Like the spaceship is being pulled in like a tractor beam into the the next planet or something 1479 01:40:56,327 --> 01:40:58,327 And 1480 01:40:58,487 --> 01:41:01,847 You can only pull one at a time so they pull when they're done pulling the one over 1481 01:41:02,327 --> 01:41:06,087 The on L2 the L2 loads the next people onto the train 1482 01:41:06,647 --> 01:41:12,166 Ah, they can't buy they can't buy up all the tickets on the train all at once each car each they can 1483 01:41:12,486 --> 01:41:14,486 They'd have to buy all the let me 1484 01:41:14,967 --> 01:41:16,327 Very close. Yes 1485 01:41:16,327 --> 01:41:19,767 So what you do is when you when you want to make a withdrawal on L2 1486 01:41:19,927 --> 01:41:23,687 you're on you're in the L2 world and you make the what you you click you set the 1487 01:41:24,327 --> 01:41:26,327 Sidechain transaction fee as always 1488 01:41:27,206 --> 01:41:31,607 Because every side every L2 message in the sidechain needs to pay that fee 1489 01:41:33,047 --> 01:41:35,047 And then you also set your L1 fee 1490 01:41:35,526 --> 01:41:39,867 And each withdrawal is going to be an output on L1 that takes 43 vbytes 1491 01:41:40,647 --> 01:41:42,647 So they're all exactly the same 1492 01:41:43,687 --> 01:41:47,287 Size because you just pay out to your L1 address, whatever it is 1493 01:41:47,846 --> 01:41:54,246 And so you you you click on L2 you say I want to withdraw and what that does is your money basically then visits the 1494 01:41:54,327 --> 01:41:59,047 Train station it goes instead of being on the planet and doing whatever it's doing over there circulating 1495 01:42:00,007 --> 01:42:05,206 Being used it goes to the uh, you know, the spaceport or the train station or whatever you want to call it 1496 01:42:05,607 --> 01:42:10,246 And then it waits in line based on which how high its L1 fee 1497 01:42:11,446 --> 01:42:16,086 Is is being paid so there's 20 000 places in line and it waits in line 1498 01:42:16,327 --> 01:42:22,567 Places in line and in order for someone to buy all those up they have to they have to buy basically all 20 000 tickets 1499 01:42:23,207 --> 01:42:25,207 But then their work isn't done 1500 01:42:25,607 --> 01:42:30,006 Because they have to pay the same fee right for all those and then if anyone outbids that rate 1501 01:42:30,806 --> 01:42:33,366 so it's a factor of 20 000 advantage to the 1502 01:42:34,086 --> 01:42:38,726 So if anyone outbids that then they cut in line. So the first it's like first class or something. So 1503 01:42:39,526 --> 01:42:43,927 So you can always cut in line and you can always make a deal with anyone who has a ticket 1504 01:42:44,006 --> 01:42:47,526 So if you if you show up and the line is 25 000 people 1505 01:42:48,246 --> 01:42:50,246 It's 5 000 people out the door 1506 01:42:50,487 --> 01:42:54,327 You could go to someone you can find someone in the first 20 000 1507 01:42:55,207 --> 01:42:56,967 and say 1508 01:42:56,967 --> 01:43:03,607 Listen, you're withdrawing your this that person maybe is withdrawing. Let's say they pay a very high fee. They pay a whole one bitcoin 1509 01:43:04,726 --> 01:43:06,726 in main chain fee layer one fee 1510 01:43:07,286 --> 01:43:09,047 So they they're withdrawing 1511 01:43:09,047 --> 01:43:13,127 28 bitcoin, but they pay one bitcoin in fee and you want to withdraw your 1512 01:43:13,767 --> 01:43:15,767 0.5 btc 1513 01:43:16,646 --> 01:43:18,806 You tell them you cut a deal with them you say listen 1514 01:43:20,567 --> 01:43:23,866 Edit your withdrawal so that i'll give you my 0.5 1515 01:43:25,607 --> 01:43:27,107 And then you can withdraw 1516 01:43:27,107 --> 01:43:32,327 28.5 btc and pay one bitcoin in L1 fee. So you put 1517 01:43:33,286 --> 01:43:35,526 I'll give you my coins since you're already in line 1518 01:43:36,246 --> 01:43:41,366 And you pay me on L1 you pay me like 0.49 btc on L1 instantly 1519 01:43:42,006 --> 01:43:44,006 So then you don't even have to take the train 1520 01:43:44,327 --> 01:43:46,327 So you can cut a side deal with any of these people 1521 01:43:47,047 --> 01:43:49,047 They can charge you like a fee 1522 01:43:49,927 --> 01:43:54,967 But so you have two options you always you can either outbid them on L1 main chain fee and again 1523 01:43:55,526 --> 01:43:58,086 Or you can just swap out instantly at any time 1524 01:43:58,886 --> 01:44:00,567 you can just say 1525 01:44:00,567 --> 01:44:03,127 and but the swap out thing never hits the ceiling because 1526 01:44:04,006 --> 01:44:08,567 As people gather more coins, they just they merge them with a kind of coin join 1527 01:44:09,207 --> 01:44:13,366 Type thing on L2 and then they withdraw them. So, you know what I mean? Like I can't they could have like 1528 01:44:14,487 --> 01:44:18,807 50 million inputs on L2 and you merge them into one withdrawal of 1529 01:44:19,427 --> 01:44:21,427 58 btc 1530 01:44:21,686 --> 01:44:28,807 And then you have one space in line that is one for 58 going to bitcoin address one c7 j8, whatever 1531 01:44:29,126 --> 01:44:32,006 So I have to you just said you're just that one guy. I don't have to buy out 1532 01:44:32,966 --> 01:44:34,726 Three months I have to buy out constantly 1533 01:44:34,726 --> 01:44:38,647 So it's not once every three months. I have to buy out the train if I want to blank it and just 1534 01:44:39,047 --> 01:44:42,807 Right. That's the other thing is you have to keep doing it. You have to keep doing it the next block 1535 01:44:43,367 --> 01:44:45,367 once this train leaves 1536 01:44:45,446 --> 01:44:49,846 Well, it's the next train so you can wait three months if you successfully block out the whole withdrawal 1537 01:44:49,927 --> 01:44:53,286 So then if i'm if i'm a state, you don't have to do it for three months, but you have to do it again 1538 01:44:53,286 --> 01:44:57,767 Right. I'm a state-based attacker hating this the drivechain z chain and i'm saying 1539 01:44:58,247 --> 01:45:03,446 I'm buying all the tickets on the train every withdrawal so that you can't get off the sidechain to kill the zSide 1540 01:45:03,446 --> 01:45:04,886 Chain because i'm a state-based attacker 1541 01:45:04,886 --> 01:45:05,846 but again 1542 01:45:05,846 --> 01:45:08,966 I may have misexplained it in that point because you're not really buying 1543 01:45:09,367 --> 01:45:13,527 The tech what you are is you pay a certain L1 fee rate. So you say i'll pay 1544 01:45:14,327 --> 01:45:19,126 Yeah, you say that what they're doing is they'll say I withdraw at this rate, which is I say I pay 1545 01:45:19,846 --> 01:45:21,607 50 dollars 1546 01:45:21,607 --> 01:45:28,247 Per with 50 dollar L1 fee 20 000 instances of that and since 50 is the highest so far 1547 01:45:29,607 --> 01:45:32,487 you have you temporarily have all of the 1548 01:45:33,286 --> 01:45:36,087 Places in line number one through twenty thousand 1549 01:45:37,607 --> 01:45:39,446 But 1550 01:45:39,446 --> 01:45:41,446 If anyone pays 51 1551 01:45:41,607 --> 01:45:43,607 at any time before the train leaves 1552 01:45:44,166 --> 01:45:46,166 Then they jump to spot number one 1553 01:45:46,966 --> 01:45:51,286 And that guy can can that guy can single-handedly withdraw everyone else's coins, right? 1554 01:45:51,367 --> 01:45:54,247 Once he's got a spot in line, he can edit it. I see so it makes it 1555 01:45:55,927 --> 01:46:00,807 Have to burn a lot so then the person then you have to then the the bad guy has to decide 1556 01:46:01,527 --> 01:46:06,487 Okay, they just paid 51 so am I going to do 52 for all 20 000 spots 1557 01:46:07,607 --> 01:46:12,726 And now they think uh, you know now this then okay, so that's why I say it's a huge advantage. Yeah 1558 01:46:12,807 --> 01:46:14,807 Yeah, it's a 20 000 to one 1559 01:46:15,927 --> 01:46:20,966 To really stop it. So again unless you're talking about, you know, russia level sanctions where yeah 1560 01:46:21,047 --> 01:46:24,566 The government will burn money to ridiculous degrees north korea level sanctions 1561 01:46:24,966 --> 01:46:28,647 They're not going to bring that much pain to bear and take that much economic loss 1562 01:46:28,807 --> 01:46:30,807 Yeah, it's only a sovereign that could 1563 01:46:31,027 --> 01:46:35,846 Infinitely print and again that only helps bitcoin in the long run as we all know because the printer never stops 1564 01:46:36,087 --> 01:46:40,566 Okay. Okay. No, you got it. Just walking through the stuff and learning the mechanics. Thank you for all that. It's very helpful 1565 01:46:40,807 --> 01:46:44,247 Okay, so that's the withdrawal and then uh taproot SegWit 1566 01:46:45,126 --> 01:46:46,006 uh 1567 01:46:46,006 --> 01:46:48,006 It that temporarily made block space 1568 01:46:48,647 --> 01:46:54,807 Slightly more abundant because it was a mandatory block size increase that that additional size of the discount in cost as well 1569 01:46:54,886 --> 01:46:57,367 Right because it's temporary. It's it's right 1570 01:46:58,327 --> 01:47:00,327 It could be temporary 1571 01:47:00,807 --> 01:47:02,807 It has nothing to do with 1572 01:47:03,607 --> 01:47:08,587 It has nothing to do with the feature it's just we made this extension block for witnesses 1573 01:47:10,487 --> 01:47:12,487 And so that is why it 1574 01:47:13,047 --> 01:47:15,047 Made those types of transactions cheaper 1575 01:47:16,166 --> 01:47:18,966 this the being in slot one versus slot two 1576 01:47:19,927 --> 01:47:26,807 You when you deposit you're on L1 so you could use a taproot, you know, you could spend from a taproot output 1577 01:47:28,166 --> 01:47:30,166 And go into slot one or slot two 1578 01:47:30,807 --> 01:47:32,647 It's completely unrelated 1579 01:47:32,647 --> 01:47:33,767 so 1580 01:47:33,767 --> 01:47:35,767 the 1581 01:47:36,247 --> 01:47:39,367 Uh, i'm not sure what you were trying to get out with that slot one 1582 01:47:39,446 --> 01:47:45,367 Is it right to believe each of the sidechain slots that can accept a hash that is representative of a merkle or a block? 1583 01:47:45,446 --> 01:47:49,367 Or whatever is necessary for validation on the sidechain that's receiving a hash in slot one 1584 01:47:49,607 --> 01:47:54,406 Is is it appropriate to treat that as a premium area of block space because people will pay higher 1585 01:47:54,647 --> 01:47:58,726 Than the other areas of the block because they want to be the person that wins all the fees on L2 1586 01:47:58,966 --> 01:48:02,886 So they're paying that one. No, I don't think so. I think so what happens is 1587 01:48:03,527 --> 01:48:05,527 When you pay when you deposit 1588 01:48:05,927 --> 01:48:07,927 There's each each sidechain slot 1589 01:48:08,487 --> 01:48:13,286 So like let's say we're talking about sidechain number five and sidechain number five is like the ethereum sidechain or whatever 1590 01:48:13,446 --> 01:48:15,446 And it has like 20 000 btc 1591 01:48:15,686 --> 01:48:17,686 Total that has been deposited into it 1592 01:48:18,406 --> 01:48:20,327 If that's the case 1593 01:48:20,327 --> 01:48:22,327 Then on L1 somewhere 1594 01:48:23,047 --> 01:48:28,487 There is a UTXO that is spent with like a BIP300 script op drivechain op not five 1595 01:48:29,126 --> 01:48:31,527 Script that has 20 000 btc 1596 01:48:32,647 --> 01:48:39,766 In it somewhere and when you deposit to it, you select that one. You select your own like let's say you have like a 5 btc 1597 01:48:40,786 --> 01:48:42,007 UTXO 1598 01:48:42,007 --> 01:48:44,007 And you spend it and you give yourself 1599 01:48:44,807 --> 01:48:46,807 three bitcoin and change 1600 01:48:47,286 --> 01:48:49,127 and you pay a transaction fee of 1601 01:48:49,127 --> 01:48:51,127 0.01 1602 01:48:51,367 --> 01:48:53,367 And so then you pay 1603 01:48:53,586 --> 01:48:55,367 1.99 1604 01:48:55,367 --> 01:48:58,166 Into the sidechain, so then it will be a new output that has 1605 01:48:58,867 --> 01:49:00,406 20 000 1606 01:49:00,406 --> 01:49:02,666 Whatever I said 20 000 1.99 1607 01:49:04,646 --> 01:49:05,846 And so 1608 01:49:05,846 --> 01:49:11,846 That's the L1 picture and then what it really is is the more abundant block space on L2 1609 01:49:11,927 --> 01:49:16,247 That is not as valuable. So I would say that actually you make a more abundant block space, but 1610 01:49:16,887 --> 01:49:18,887 it's less valuable so you have a 1611 01:49:19,607 --> 01:49:24,966 Lower demand by a much higher supply and as a result the block space would probably be cheap 1612 01:49:26,807 --> 01:49:30,086 For the end user agreed but from the L1 perspective of 1613 01:49:30,646 --> 01:49:38,086 The miner and the block space value to me, which is what i'm selling i'm selling block space be included in the block space 1614 01:49:38,086 --> 01:49:40,567 I'm a miner right i'll include you in my block space 1615 01:49:41,127 --> 01:49:44,726 I'm always going to take the extractable highest one. So people give me the most fees 1616 01:49:45,367 --> 01:49:48,326 But the the I can't have more than one 1617 01:49:49,206 --> 01:49:56,487 Block for the sidechain go in because I only have one slot slot five. I can't take two sidechain five blocks into one 1618 01:49:57,447 --> 01:50:00,326 Normally, I could take two inscriptions. I can take two transactions, right? 1619 01:50:00,326 --> 01:50:04,086 So because it is further scarce block space than others 1620 01:50:04,326 --> 01:50:06,247 It will demand a premium and that's what you're saying 1621 01:50:06,247 --> 01:50:09,047 You're just going to increase fees for the minus right in the very first part of that 1622 01:50:09,206 --> 01:50:14,247 You can't you can do two inscriptions, but you couldn't do something you can't you can't put two sidechain blocks 1623 01:50:14,726 --> 01:50:15,927 in the same 1624 01:50:15,927 --> 01:50:19,447 Layer one block, right? There's only one slot five only one 1625 01:50:20,247 --> 01:50:25,047 Hash is going to go in there. So that is by nature a more scarce area of my block on L1 1626 01:50:25,607 --> 01:50:28,487 Premium area. This is a slightly different thing. Yes, right 1627 01:50:29,367 --> 01:50:33,286 Yes, uh, but that's a slightly different thing. Okay, this is where you're right 1628 01:50:34,007 --> 01:50:36,406 Yes, but but let me explain that 1629 01:50:37,687 --> 01:50:42,406 It's because if there's a finite space for the merge mine hash 1630 01:50:43,367 --> 01:50:46,247 Which would be like whatever this certain 32 byte region 1631 01:50:47,687 --> 01:50:53,607 That is the thing that in BIP301 is auctioned off. So whatever let's say you have the evm chain is in slot five 1632 01:50:54,326 --> 01:50:56,326 Let's say that one pays 1633 01:50:56,326 --> 01:50:58,326 total transaction fees 1634 01:50:58,646 --> 01:51:00,807 Of a certain block that is eight 1635 01:51:01,826 --> 01:51:04,747 Btc and so in the layer two coinbase 1636 01:51:05,927 --> 01:51:07,927 Whoever created that block 1637 01:51:08,807 --> 01:51:10,807 They're getting eight btc 1638 01:51:11,127 --> 01:51:13,127 and in each transaction, you know, there's a 1639 01:51:13,927 --> 01:51:15,286 each transaction 1640 01:51:15,286 --> 01:51:22,726 Pays a small fee and it all sums up to eight btc. So you're following me so far the L2 block is worth eight btc 1641 01:51:26,007 --> 01:51:30,487 So what is happening now in blind merge mining is there's a middleman 1642 01:51:31,367 --> 01:51:34,487 Who constructs the block paying themselves the 8 btc? 1643 01:51:35,127 --> 01:51:37,127 and then in L1 1644 01:51:38,406 --> 01:51:42,987 They make a transaction that says they make a bid they say i'll pay 7.99 1645 01:51:45,047 --> 01:51:47,047 To anyone 1646 01:51:47,127 --> 01:51:49,127 It's up for grabs as long as 1647 01:51:50,406 --> 01:51:55,286 The special 32 byte region according to corresponding to a drivechain slot number five 1648 01:51:56,406 --> 01:51:58,406 Has this exact hash in it? 1649 01:51:59,047 --> 01:52:02,026 If that's the case, then you can take my 7.99 1650 01:52:03,127 --> 01:52:04,966 L1 btc 1651 01:52:04,966 --> 01:52:07,526 But if not, then you cannot include this transaction in a block 1652 01:52:08,086 --> 01:52:13,286 So you're right. It makes a premium only for those 32 bytes not for the rest of the block 1653 01:52:13,367 --> 01:52:15,846 So what you would really see on L1 is you would see 1654 01:52:16,406 --> 01:52:21,846 Some kind of normal distribution, you know by normal. I don't mean gaussian. I mean like some kind of as expected 1655 01:52:23,526 --> 01:52:24,567 Exactly 1656 01:52:24,567 --> 01:52:32,726 some some regularly shaped thing that would have been the case before there was any BIP300 or 301 and then there will be 1657 01:52:33,687 --> 01:52:35,687 over in the block interspersed 1658 01:52:36,326 --> 01:52:38,326 For each sidechain, there will be this huge 1659 01:52:39,346 --> 01:52:41,286 skyscraper like 1660 01:52:41,286 --> 01:52:43,607 Pins, you know these huge spikes 1661 01:52:44,247 --> 01:52:46,247 That one transaction will just pay 1662 01:52:46,867 --> 01:52:48,807 7.99 1663 01:52:48,807 --> 01:52:50,067 in fee 1664 01:52:50,067 --> 01:52:52,406 7.99 btc in total in fees 1665 01:52:52,406 --> 01:52:57,927 so some of these may pay more than the entire rest of the block in one single transaction, but this is not because 1666 01:52:59,047 --> 01:53:02,326 That person really wanted to get into L1. It's because they really wanted to set 1667 01:53:03,367 --> 01:53:04,966 the 1668 01:53:04,966 --> 01:53:11,846 The sidechain block contents and this is only if they use BIP301 if BIP301 is not used then this just won't happen 1669 01:53:12,807 --> 01:53:16,086 But if it is then you would see that and that is the sense in which they're scarce 1670 01:53:17,927 --> 01:53:20,807 And then your first thing was something about uh 1671 01:53:21,927 --> 01:53:26,887 Oh, yeah, the damage is isolated to the sidechain. Yes, if the whole point of sidechains as I see it 1672 01:53:27,766 --> 01:53:29,766 Is a proper accountability 1673 01:53:30,487 --> 01:53:32,086 proper blame 1674 01:53:32,086 --> 01:53:33,206 so 1675 01:53:33,206 --> 01:53:35,206 we have a situation where 1676 01:53:36,166 --> 01:53:40,406 If the sidechain developer does something stupid that attracts the wrong kind of attention 1677 01:53:41,367 --> 01:53:43,367 if the sidechain developer 1678 01:53:43,927 --> 01:53:45,927 Screws up and loses everyone's coins 1679 01:53:46,567 --> 01:53:48,406 They are blamed and I think 1680 01:53:48,406 --> 01:53:50,406 putting blame in the right spot 1681 01:53:50,487 --> 01:53:56,807 that is really the difference between you know, like capitalism and communism, you know, like like hell on earth and 1682 01:53:57,666 --> 01:53:59,666 prosperity 1683 01:53:59,906 --> 01:54:03,826 And or at least doing the best we can with what we have so 1684 01:54:04,867 --> 01:54:10,867 We don't want so this is what we want. You know, we we just want we just need the right people to get the right blame 1685 01:54:12,226 --> 01:54:14,466 That's the that's the key ingredient 1686 01:54:15,266 --> 01:54:20,867 so as you as you say, it's possible to design some kind of sidechain that like just draws the wrath of 1687 01:54:22,146 --> 01:54:27,987 Any number of people, you know, of course like for example, uh silk road. There was a senator was the 1688 01:54:28,627 --> 01:54:35,987 I think was it um, was it chuck schumer someone there's a documentary with amir taki and amir taki plays on his laptop 1689 01:54:36,867 --> 01:54:38,867 a video of chuck schumer saying 1690 01:54:38,947 --> 01:54:40,947 That he wants his website taken off 1691 01:54:41,266 --> 01:54:42,947 the internet 1692 01:54:42,947 --> 01:54:48,947 So by the way, that's how I learned about bitcoin from that. I mean too. Yeah, not from that documentary but from the silk road 1693 01:54:49,586 --> 01:54:50,547 like 1694 01:54:50,547 --> 01:54:51,326 like 1695 01:54:51,326 --> 01:54:52,627 drama 1696 01:54:52,627 --> 01:54:55,586 And he he has it and then what does he do satoshi enjoyer? 1697 01:54:55,586 --> 01:54:57,826 He pauses it and then he turns to the camera and he says 1698 01:54:58,466 --> 01:54:59,666 Do you remember? 1699 01:54:59,666 --> 01:55:05,026 um, I don't remember that but I remember he goes step by step and how to use silk road how to use tour, um, 1700 01:55:05,187 --> 01:55:09,346 how to get uh that there's this bitcoin currency literally step by step exactly like 1701 01:55:09,747 --> 01:55:11,906 how to use it and then that that drove me into 1702 01:55:12,547 --> 01:55:14,226 Um doing more research about it, of course 1703 01:55:14,226 --> 01:55:15,826 I remember he's a little uh hazy myself 1704 01:55:15,826 --> 01:55:19,906 but he says something along the lines of he looks at the camera and he just says that was a year and a half ago 1705 01:55:20,547 --> 01:55:22,547 And the site is still up 1706 01:55:22,947 --> 01:55:28,146 So, yeah, but yeah, I agree the whole point of sidechains is that uh people take their own risks 1707 01:55:29,507 --> 01:55:32,226 And they take they suffer the consequences be they good 1708 01:55:33,107 --> 01:55:34,947 or bad 1709 01:55:34,947 --> 01:55:38,307 Now, I think we had a a tryptonomic and a moonsettler hand 1710 01:55:39,107 --> 01:55:40,627 so 1711 01:55:40,627 --> 01:55:42,627 I just quickly would like to 1712 01:55:43,346 --> 01:55:45,346 Just one thing I want to say 1713 01:55:45,826 --> 01:55:48,226 Way way before someone mentioned that 1714 01:55:48,786 --> 01:55:56,627 Zcash sidechain might be such a breaking point. I totally don't think so. So in a in an ideal, uh, 1715 01:55:57,166 --> 01:55:58,867 successful ride chain 1716 01:55:58,867 --> 01:56:00,307 world if 1717 01:56:00,307 --> 01:56:01,427 DeFi 1718 01:56:01,427 --> 01:56:08,226 Comes and built on top of bitcoin. I think we will be talking about tens or hundreds of millions of dollars 1719 01:56:08,947 --> 01:56:10,947 in uh in revenue 1720 01:56:11,427 --> 01:56:12,387 fee 1721 01:56:12,387 --> 01:56:15,187 revenue for the miners, uh from that 1722 01:56:15,826 --> 01:56:19,826 I think that's what ethereum and the other stuff is showing us roughly 1723 01:56:20,706 --> 01:56:23,187 And that could grow to god knows what 1724 01:56:23,987 --> 01:56:26,226 over time but but that's kind of like a 1725 01:56:27,107 --> 01:56:31,266 Over the timeline that this can play out that that seems realistic to me 1726 01:56:31,747 --> 01:56:38,786 And for something like a zcash side, I would see like hundreds or thousands of dollars of fee revenue collected 1727 01:56:38,867 --> 01:56:40,387 so that's that's 1728 01:56:40,387 --> 01:56:46,547 That's such a non-issue that's a total non-issue the entire thing would probably boil down to to 1729 01:56:46,867 --> 01:56:51,586 uh DeFi and of course the entire point of DeFi is to avoid regulators and 1730 01:56:52,286 --> 01:56:55,747 regulators will be pretty uh prissy about that and 1731 01:56:56,466 --> 01:57:00,726 That that is much more likely to be the breaking point in my opinion 1732 01:57:00,726 --> 01:57:02,726 Um 1733 01:57:08,247 --> 01:57:11,946 Make sense should we do tryptonomic? 1734 01:57:15,926 --> 01:57:20,806 Sure, hi, uh, by the way, the term is bow the knee not bends the knee 1735 01:57:22,887 --> 01:57:27,287 Uh, anyway, uh, so I have an answer to the question you had last week 1736 01:57:27,926 --> 01:57:29,206 on 1737 01:57:29,206 --> 01:57:31,206 quantum error correction and like 1738 01:57:31,586 --> 01:57:34,887 decoherence, I actually was on a space this week and 1739 01:57:35,607 --> 01:57:37,607 Charles hodgkinson's was on and 1740 01:57:38,167 --> 01:57:41,206 I got to speak with him for a little while and he brought up the same 1741 01:57:42,086 --> 01:57:45,127 issues, however, I found the answer is 1742 01:57:46,247 --> 01:57:47,607 found when 1743 01:57:47,607 --> 01:57:51,446 The entanglements of the when whatever particles are being entangled 1744 01:57:52,326 --> 01:57:53,367 um 1745 01:57:53,367 --> 01:57:56,407 as long some particles are heavier than others and so 1746 01:57:57,527 --> 01:57:58,887 if 1747 01:57:58,887 --> 01:58:03,287 You're doing calculations on with whatever qubits you have assuming that they're stable 1748 01:58:04,007 --> 01:58:05,767 um 1749 01:58:05,767 --> 01:58:11,926 The entanglement is a lot more stable when the particles are less dense and they're they're not as heavy. So 1750 01:58:12,726 --> 01:58:14,247 that helps with 1751 01:58:14,247 --> 01:58:16,326 you know quantum error correction and 1752 01:58:17,267 --> 01:58:19,287 decoherence as well as like, uh 1753 01:58:20,086 --> 01:58:22,086 gate errors and so 1754 01:58:22,086 --> 01:58:27,046 ibm for instance went from you know, one qubit to 50 qubit chip to 1755 01:58:27,846 --> 01:58:31,686 Now there's they have a a qubit chip a chip 1756 01:58:32,566 --> 01:58:34,647 with more than 1 000 qubits 1757 01:58:35,287 --> 01:58:36,867 and so these 1758 01:58:36,867 --> 01:58:40,647 entanglements are are very stable and so 1759 01:58:42,247 --> 01:58:45,607 Um, we have a thousand qubits that can be used 1760 01:58:46,167 --> 01:58:48,167 but did we get an answer to the question about 1761 01:58:48,887 --> 01:58:51,287 It only affects the signatures and not hashes though 1762 01:58:51,287 --> 01:58:53,287 So 1763 01:58:54,887 --> 01:58:58,887 Sure because I mean even if even even if a cubic, um, you know 1764 01:58:59,527 --> 01:59:02,806 Hashes it's a 256 bit hash it I mean 1765 01:59:03,607 --> 01:59:08,647 It would still be I guess the same number it wouldn't be calculated with bits, of course 1766 01:59:08,726 --> 01:59:10,966 But it would still be the same size of a number 1767 01:59:11,527 --> 01:59:13,527 So yeah 1768 01:59:17,367 --> 01:59:19,367 Well interesting 1769 01:59:20,326 --> 01:59:22,326 Wow, that's very cool 1770 01:59:24,726 --> 01:59:26,887 Yeah, I think it was much faster than I thought I mean 1771 01:59:26,887 --> 01:59:30,086 I know they were struggling to get two qubits and then they were struggling to get four 1772 01:59:31,046 --> 01:59:36,007 And then someone got six somewhere and then that was like that was all that had happened in like 10 years 1773 01:59:36,647 --> 01:59:40,247 No, that was that was decades ago. Um right now, I mean 1774 01:59:41,527 --> 01:59:47,206 It's outperforming moore's law. I mean more moore's law doesn't really apply here as as much but I mean 1775 01:59:47,527 --> 01:59:51,446 It was 50 and then 100 and even if you have a 50 qubit chip 1776 01:59:52,086 --> 01:59:57,127 And and you have these entanglements that are that are with with really dense, uh, really 1777 01:59:57,846 --> 01:59:58,887 uh 1778 01:59:58,887 --> 02:00:01,127 with particles that are less dense than 1779 02:00:01,926 --> 02:00:06,887 Other particles and like I said depends on the particles you use but if the particles aren't very dense 1780 02:00:07,691 --> 02:00:10,111 Then, you know 50 qubits can outperform 1781 02:00:10,571 --> 02:00:15,051 um a modern supercomputer assuming that you know, you've adjusted for 1782 02:00:15,531 --> 02:00:21,371 that, you know, you don't have any errors and there isn't errors with the gates and the hardware is there but ibm has a 1783 02:00:22,091 --> 02:00:24,090 You know an over 1 000 1784 02:00:24,651 --> 02:00:26,651 qubit chip 1785 02:00:27,051 --> 02:00:28,411 And so 1786 02:00:28,411 --> 02:00:31,930 you know for the era of one and two qubits and 50 that was 1787 02:00:32,491 --> 02:00:35,131 during uh, you know research and development and 1788 02:00:35,930 --> 02:00:42,731 Really trying to uh, you know configure the hardware as well. I mean the hardware is more than half of the problem 1789 02:00:44,571 --> 02:00:49,931 Because the the quantum mechanics are available everywhere they're essentially infinite it's just about 1790 02:00:50,630 --> 02:00:53,771 configuring a hardware environment around them to stabilize them and 1791 02:00:54,411 --> 02:01:00,411 um, or to help them remain stable depending on like what's what state of density the particles have so 1792 02:01:01,371 --> 02:01:05,051 Yeah, 1 000 qubits wow, it's a lot it's a lot it's interesting. Yes 1793 02:01:06,010 --> 02:01:11,290 What do you mean by density? Well, I don't know if we should maybe it's too much off topic really but but I thought i'm sorry 1794 02:01:11,771 --> 02:01:14,811 Don't think you normally use photons. And of course a photon has no 1795 02:01:15,610 --> 02:01:16,811 mass 1796 02:01:16,811 --> 02:01:18,811 It only has momentum 1797 02:01:19,290 --> 02:01:21,290 As i'm sure we all remember from 1798 02:01:22,091 --> 02:01:26,811 Whatever physics class we took or at least that's what I remember. Although these things are certainly 1799 02:01:27,031 --> 02:01:29,031 Contradictory to say the least 1800 02:01:29,531 --> 02:01:34,911 But uh, I don't know what you mean by dense. You mean like there are many photons like in one area. What does that mean? 1801 02:01:44,491 --> 02:01:46,491 Well 1802 02:01:48,411 --> 02:01:53,131 Well, it's a tricky subject anyway, maybe we should see if anyone has a 1803 02:01:56,890 --> 02:01:58,890 BIP300 1804 02:01:59,210 --> 02:02:01,210 Comment your question 1805 02:02:01,851 --> 02:02:03,851 Then maybe we can come back 1806 02:02:05,691 --> 02:02:07,691 Yeah, I couldn't actually hear you until now 1807 02:02:09,771 --> 02:02:14,890 Um, I think your question was like what how do you measure density and particles or something like that 1808 02:02:17,930 --> 02:02:19,930 Um 1809 02:02:21,770 --> 02:02:23,770 It refers to the like like 1810 02:02:24,650 --> 02:02:30,010 Like if you have a molecule how many particles are in that in that molecule or how many particles are in a certain 1811 02:02:35,371 --> 02:02:37,371 Yeah, it's a particle 1812 02:02:38,410 --> 02:02:41,930 Yeah, I don't really have the answer like I said, I don't have the answer all I know is that 1813 02:02:42,971 --> 02:02:45,371 All I know is that you can measure the density 1814 02:02:47,050 --> 02:02:49,930 The dense you can measure the density of uh 1815 02:02:50,570 --> 02:02:53,691 One particle versus another and some are 1816 02:02:54,570 --> 02:02:57,930 are essentially larger heavier in some way and so 1817 02:02:58,570 --> 02:03:02,650 Um, that's all I had there. I don't i'm not a i'm not exactly sure 1818 02:03:03,531 --> 02:03:08,490 how the quantum states are changed in ibm's quantum teams computers, but 1819 02:03:09,130 --> 02:03:10,171 um 1820 02:03:10,171 --> 02:03:11,691 whatever state 1821 02:03:11,691 --> 02:03:15,290 Their quantum computer whatever quantum states their computer is changing 1822 02:03:15,770 --> 02:03:20,570 Um, they ensure that those states are less dense than ours are as um, 1823 02:03:21,451 --> 02:03:22,811 or as uh 1824 02:03:22,811 --> 02:03:24,811 You know as least dense as possible 1825 02:03:29,930 --> 02:03:36,490 It also casts your calculations and processing of the yeah cool. All right. Thanks 1826 02:03:38,811 --> 02:03:40,811 Okay, thanks 1827 02:03:41,691 --> 02:03:46,251 Bit green aka a bitcoin penguin 1828 02:03:47,930 --> 02:03:49,930 Is on stage now. Hello 1829 02:03:50,570 --> 02:03:56,331 Got a question about um kind of incentivized trying a 51 percent attack 1830 02:03:57,130 --> 02:04:01,611 So usually you could only essentially times two your coins 1831 02:04:02,251 --> 02:04:03,210 um 1832 02:04:03,210 --> 02:04:04,731 on L1 1833 02:04:04,731 --> 02:04:06,731 but with drive change you could 1834 02:04:07,290 --> 02:04:10,171 Get a lot more than what you've got now 1835 02:04:10,490 --> 02:04:14,891 I suppose this is the same with lightning that you could get a lot more than you've got but 1836 02:04:15,451 --> 02:04:17,451 What's your view on incentivizing? 1837 02:04:18,091 --> 02:04:22,891 Doing a 51 percent attack. I know it's super hard because you're gonna have to do it for three months, but exactly 1838 02:04:24,330 --> 02:04:26,411 That's exactly it which is to say 1839 02:04:27,210 --> 02:04:30,170 the three month time period is supposed to 1840 02:04:30,890 --> 02:04:32,811 try to offset 1841 02:04:32,811 --> 02:04:34,490 the fact that 1842 02:04:34,490 --> 02:04:37,071 The attack is more profitable 1843 02:04:37,930 --> 02:04:39,930 so that's exactly it it 1844 02:04:41,050 --> 02:04:42,330 it is um 1845 02:04:42,330 --> 02:04:48,411 So with certain things like reorging L1 or holding UTXO hostage or emptying the lightning channel 1846 02:04:49,210 --> 02:04:51,210 It is actually very easy to 1847 02:04:51,610 --> 02:04:53,610 Do it sort of quickly 1848 02:04:53,770 --> 02:04:55,770 uh with this it's 1849 02:04:56,170 --> 02:05:03,450 Uh, the idea is that making it longer makes it much harder one one way in particular is that the miners will have to 1850 02:05:05,050 --> 02:05:09,770 Construct the transaction paying themselves the loot, you know the plunder 1851 02:05:11,531 --> 02:05:15,851 Uh, and then hash that and then put that hash in everyone will know immediately that the hash is wrong 1852 02:05:17,691 --> 02:05:22,890 And the what will happen in that scenario is 1853 02:05:24,730 --> 02:05:31,291 Over the next three months the hash rate can change like the hash distribution can change no one knows exactly who is 1854 02:05:32,251 --> 02:05:36,811 Who has joined the network who has left who is getting very lucky who's getting very unlucky 1855 02:05:37,371 --> 02:05:39,930 So that is one additional stumbling block 1856 02:05:39,930 --> 02:05:46,011 This is why to make it so long and of course with with 51 it's not three months. It's actually six months 1857 02:05:46,811 --> 02:05:48,811 You need a hundred percent 1858 02:05:50,011 --> 02:05:52,011 Cooperating can do it all in three months 1859 02:05:52,411 --> 02:05:54,971 But with 51 you barely eke it out 1860 02:05:55,770 --> 02:05:59,610 Over six months where the hash rate distribution might change even more 1861 02:06:00,571 --> 02:06:07,531 Uh, of course we have to keep in mind that even though the pools are stable this is slightly misleading because 1862 02:06:09,371 --> 02:06:11,371 The 1863 02:06:11,930 --> 02:06:16,011 Uh, the pools and their main asset is their brand which they 1864 02:06:17,050 --> 02:06:20,490 Which is also their main liability, which is if they screw anything up. They are screwed 1865 02:06:21,851 --> 02:06:26,411 And this hides what must be an enormous amount of dynamism 1866 02:06:26,411 --> 02:06:28,911 Under the hood, you know of the actual sha256 1867 02:06:30,011 --> 02:06:31,531 hashers 1868 02:06:31,531 --> 02:06:33,531 So they are the ones who ultimately will 1869 02:06:34,490 --> 02:06:39,770 Be responsible for executing this 51 percent attack and they have much more dynamism than the pools 1870 02:06:41,131 --> 02:06:42,971 So that's my my thought on that 1871 02:06:42,971 --> 02:06:46,890 Which is that the the length of time is and and not only the length of time 1872 02:06:46,890 --> 02:06:52,330 But also pigeonholing it all into one event that is globally observed and that is very easy to ascribe 1873 02:06:52,730 --> 02:06:58,170 Blame for because the sidechain node will tell everyone what the true withdrawal hash should be 1874 02:06:59,050 --> 02:07:01,050 And everyone will know on day one 1875 02:07:01,770 --> 02:07:05,930 That the 51 attack one is wrong. It's completely wrong and that it is 1876 02:07:06,490 --> 02:07:10,490 It has no relationship to the truth at all. It's not like some kind of mistake or fluke 1877 02:07:11,691 --> 02:07:17,610 So that is the idea behind since since they can take more coins. We have to make it harder and 1878 02:07:17,691 --> 02:07:19,691 We have to make it harder and 1879 02:07:20,890 --> 02:07:22,411 uh 1880 02:07:22,411 --> 02:07:23,691 That is part of the logic 1881 02:07:23,691 --> 02:07:28,811 The other part of the logic is of course that making it longer doesn't really inconvenience too many normal users 1882 02:07:30,730 --> 02:07:35,050 Now I think the key thing to always keep in mind with the 51 percent attack is what is the consequence going to be 1883 02:07:35,291 --> 02:07:41,450 in in the drivechain case the consequences they steal all the coins, but they have almost certainly destroyed the 1884 02:07:42,311 --> 02:07:45,531 transaction fee revenue from all the drivechains probably 1885 02:07:46,411 --> 02:07:48,650 And I have done some math on that 1886 02:07:50,650 --> 02:07:53,150 Uh, anyone can do it just go to cryptofees.info 1887 02:07:53,930 --> 02:07:58,971 Look up what the what ethereum is paying in fees each day. It's just a kind of 1888 02:08:00,650 --> 02:08:02,650 Empirical glimpse of today's data 1889 02:08:03,371 --> 02:08:05,371 And just taking that present value of that 1890 02:08:05,371 --> 02:08:11,371 And you'll and then divide that by the price of bitcoin and you'll see if we had drivechain today about how many coins 1891 02:08:11,851 --> 02:08:14,730 Could safely fit in there. We're a greedy miner 1892 02:08:15,371 --> 02:08:17,371 Would find it more 1893 02:08:17,430 --> 02:08:19,430 greedy to 1894 02:08:19,531 --> 02:08:23,291 Not steal via the 51 percent attack. So those are my thoughts 1895 02:08:24,571 --> 02:08:30,571 On that but that is the crucial question if the sidechain if the drivechain BIP300 chain is not 1896 02:08:31,670 --> 02:08:34,751 Generating fees or if it doesn't have some kind of plausible 1897 02:08:35,930 --> 02:08:38,411 Story about why it will generate fees 1898 02:08:39,850 --> 02:08:41,850 Then it will not be secure. That is the whole 1899 02:08:42,571 --> 02:08:44,571 basis of this idea 1900 02:08:45,691 --> 02:08:49,290 Unfortunately from ethereum we have you know, some like, you know just from 1901 02:08:50,410 --> 02:08:51,530 we have 1902 02:08:51,530 --> 02:08:53,530 We we see that it's at least possible 1903 02:08:54,410 --> 02:08:57,451 for something to generate fees that are so large they 1904 02:08:59,211 --> 02:09:01,211 They dwarf even bitcoin's fees 1905 02:09:03,131 --> 02:09:05,850 Anyway alex, hello nice to see you again 1906 02:09:07,050 --> 02:09:08,891 Is the feepocalypse? 1907 02:09:08,891 --> 02:09:11,290 When is the feepocalypse alex? Is it tomorrow? 1908 02:09:12,170 --> 02:09:14,170 Hi guys, uh 1909 02:09:15,211 --> 02:09:22,571 I'm still a proponent of the feepocalypse and on that front there's been a few new developments. There's basically two funded 1910 02:09:23,451 --> 02:09:29,211 Uh roll-up companies one of which is doing sovereign roll-ups on bitcoin and the other one is doing 1911 02:09:30,811 --> 02:09:37,530 With evm evm capability and the other one is doing some other kind of roll-up on bitcoin without evm maybe with stark net 1912 02:09:38,490 --> 02:09:45,230 But I wanted just to remark on something about because there's been a lot of talk about miner incentives and regulation 1913 02:09:46,090 --> 02:09:53,290 And today we have something that's probably more offensive than any sidechain could possibly be for example 1914 02:09:54,170 --> 02:10:00,730 If wiki leaks did its disclosures today, there would be no better place for them to disclose then 1915 02:10:01,610 --> 02:10:04,730 to inscribe a whole collection of leaks in 1916 02:10:04,951 --> 02:10:08,170 Hierarchical inscriptions which have the same 1917 02:10:08,790 --> 02:10:12,331 Censorship resistance and immutability as bitcoin itself, right? 1918 02:10:13,211 --> 02:10:16,090 and that would be more offensive than any kind of 1919 02:10:16,730 --> 02:10:20,651 You know small potatoes financial movements on a z sidechains 1920 02:10:21,290 --> 02:10:24,170 And then the question will be well should the miners censor? 1921 02:10:25,050 --> 02:10:28,011 those inscriptions, well, of course they cannot because 1922 02:10:28,891 --> 02:10:30,891 They're basically, you know 1923 02:10:31,050 --> 02:10:33,050 In other words 1924 02:10:33,050 --> 02:10:40,090 The arguments about some sidechain or drivechain being offensive and for miners being forced to censor it 1925 02:10:40,571 --> 02:10:43,691 are moot relative to the possibility of simply dumping 1926 02:10:44,891 --> 02:10:50,410 you know highly highly classified, you know alien disclosure stuff or abuses by the 1927 02:10:52,170 --> 02:10:54,331 You know u.s proxies around the world 1928 02:10:55,290 --> 02:10:59,691 You know black sites, whatever it is that got wiki leaks people into big trouble 1929 02:11:00,410 --> 02:11:04,331 Can trivially be embedded immutably into bitcoin blockchain for 1930 02:11:04,891 --> 02:11:09,691 pennies essentially today and that would be much more offensive to the powers that be than 1931 02:11:10,251 --> 02:11:12,170 You know a few thousand nerds 1932 02:11:12,170 --> 02:11:14,170 Trying to mix their coins on 1933 02:11:14,331 --> 02:11:16,331 z sidechains 1934 02:11:17,290 --> 02:11:18,891 Yeah, that's a very good point 1935 02:11:18,891 --> 02:11:23,691 And yeah, just you know, I do feel a lot of it is like concern trolling and none of it is really real 1936 02:11:24,090 --> 02:11:27,691 there was a famous case in early in bitcoin where people put 1937 02:11:28,490 --> 02:11:30,331 Hyperlinks to 1938 02:11:30,331 --> 02:11:31,850 the dreaded 1939 02:11:31,850 --> 02:11:33,530 cp 1940 02:11:33,530 --> 02:11:37,930 and then uh that people said that would be the end of bitcoin and then someone actually somehow put 1941 02:11:38,410 --> 02:11:40,410 some of it actually 1942 02:11:40,410 --> 02:11:43,530 on the blockchain somehow and then again people said 1943 02:11:44,331 --> 02:11:46,331 This is the end of bitcoin, but of course 1944 02:11:47,451 --> 02:11:54,651 Nothing happened at all. Um, because why would it and all data has to be interpreted. Anyway, you could 1945 02:11:55,290 --> 02:11:59,451 Every everything is encrypted when it's digital in some way, you know what I mean? 1946 02:11:59,451 --> 02:12:02,410 Like because you know if you have to know if it's a jpeg or a png 1947 02:12:04,011 --> 02:12:06,011 So, well, yeah 1948 02:12:06,011 --> 02:12:12,811 You know, there's been a couple of new developments in the world of inscriptions that are highly promising as far as amplifying the fee pressure 1949 02:12:14,331 --> 02:12:15,930 Recently 1950 02:12:15,930 --> 02:12:17,930 They introduced what they call recursive 1951 02:12:18,730 --> 02:12:21,131 recursiveness of inscriptions which is to say that 1952 02:12:21,211 --> 02:12:23,211 Inscriptions which is to say that 1953 02:12:23,290 --> 02:12:25,930 you can now have whole websites with hundreds of 1954 02:12:27,211 --> 02:12:32,811 Elements all referring to each other as separate inscriptions inscribed and you can essentially launch 1955 02:12:33,610 --> 02:12:35,711 You know websites inside inscriptions 1956 02:12:36,571 --> 02:12:41,050 Where a single, you know html inscription refers to others 1957 02:12:41,930 --> 02:12:47,131 so that they call that recursiveness where you basically can have content assembling itself from 1958 02:12:48,170 --> 02:12:49,451 referring to 1959 02:12:49,451 --> 02:12:51,451 also, you have um 1960 02:12:51,771 --> 02:12:57,930 a situation where there is like public good inscriptions, for example, like there's been over 50 1961 02:12:58,891 --> 02:13:05,470 Popular javascript libraries that got inscribed and those can now be embedded inside websites 1962 02:13:06,090 --> 02:13:08,350 That are published inside inscriptions 1963 02:13:09,131 --> 02:13:12,670 What's interesting about those websites is that one of those websites? 1964 02:13:13,371 --> 02:13:17,691 Has decentralized naming like their domain names cannot be taken down 1965 02:13:18,410 --> 02:13:21,230 And the websites themselves are uncensorable completely 1966 02:13:21,850 --> 02:13:27,530 And the best part for the creators of these websites is that they pay upfront one-time fee 1967 02:13:28,170 --> 02:13:31,550 And they get essentially eternal storage and uncensorability 1968 02:13:32,651 --> 02:13:35,131 of their content inside bitcoin blockchain, which 1969 02:13:36,970 --> 02:13:42,090 Internal hosting which basically blows away amazon or filecoin or all these other 1970 02:13:42,891 --> 02:13:46,170 Things because once you pay the fee once 1971 02:13:46,811 --> 02:13:48,331 Today 1972 02:13:48,331 --> 02:13:52,970 uh, especially with this recursivity like for example, the publishers of nfts used to 1973 02:13:53,530 --> 02:13:56,410 Now they can dynamically draw images in 1974 02:13:57,290 --> 02:14:00,511 You know, they used to publish collections of let's say 1 000 1975 02:14:01,930 --> 02:14:05,850 Modifications of a bear right the bear would be wearing this hat or that t-shirt 1976 02:14:06,490 --> 02:14:10,891 Right now because of recursivity all they need is to publish 10 or 20 1977 02:14:11,451 --> 02:14:12,571 Uh 1978 02:14:12,571 --> 02:14:17,050 Things and then start combining them in arbitrary ways. So that's like a 99 1979 02:14:18,331 --> 02:14:25,850 a price cut on publishing a collection of 1000 bear images and because of jevon's paradox what you're going to see is that 1980 02:14:26,571 --> 02:14:30,970 um, there's going to be much more usage because you know, they just added a thousand new lines to the 1981 02:14:31,371 --> 02:14:35,371 Highway where you can basically publish millions of pieces of of 1982 02:14:36,170 --> 02:14:38,331 rendered visible content while paying 1983 02:14:39,050 --> 02:14:42,490 You know only one tenth of one percent of the fees 1984 02:14:43,371 --> 02:14:45,371 So that's the recursivity 1985 02:14:45,530 --> 02:14:49,371 I like it. I mean, I love the creativity of it, you know, and I love the 1986 02:14:49,850 --> 02:14:54,831 It's like it just speaks to how when people get annoyed at something new. They really are very short-sighted 1987 02:14:56,410 --> 02:14:58,331 It's a whole new internet if you think about it 1988 02:14:58,331 --> 02:15:02,490 This is like a whole new layer on top of the internet because you can now have 1989 02:15:03,191 --> 02:15:04,331 Websites 1990 02:15:04,331 --> 02:15:09,211 With domain names that are decentralized, you know, they have these dot sats names and dot whatever 1991 02:15:10,011 --> 02:15:15,470 And these websites are published once and they can refer to shared javascript 1992 02:15:16,331 --> 02:15:20,831 Uh libraries that are published by somebody else's public goods as other inscriptions 1993 02:15:21,211 --> 02:15:24,410 and these are completely dynamic websites that will just appear and 1994 02:15:24,970 --> 02:15:28,651 Uh, you know blockchain explorers and and they will be interactive as well 1995 02:15:29,131 --> 02:15:34,331 Right, they're not just static brochure websites. They will you know, they will be able to embed games like you can go to these 1996 02:15:34,970 --> 02:15:36,490 uh ordinals 1997 02:15:36,490 --> 02:15:38,651 portals right now and play like hundreds of 1998 02:15:39,371 --> 02:15:46,891 Video games that are essentially published to bitcoin paid for once for twenty dollars or whatever and then they remain hosted forever 1999 02:15:47,850 --> 02:15:52,170 And completely uncensorable and there's nothing that china or us or anybody else can do, right? 2000 02:15:53,050 --> 02:15:55,711 So there's this explosion of of essentially 2001 02:15:56,350 --> 02:16:00,930 The cheapest publishing decentralized medium for websites that's because of recursivity 2002 02:16:01,711 --> 02:16:03,391 then there is this 2003 02:16:03,391 --> 02:16:06,131 Additional feature that was added called re-inscriptions 2004 02:16:07,151 --> 02:16:11,571 Which is basically an ability to publish multiple inscriptions on a single satoshi 2005 02:16:12,511 --> 02:16:14,511 which allows you to have 2006 02:16:15,711 --> 02:16:21,711 You know, you can now essentially hold bags of inscriptions on a single, you know satoshi and move them around 2007 02:16:22,331 --> 02:16:26,990 Wholesale, right? You can trade wholesale bags. You can stash wholesale bags 2008 02:16:27,631 --> 02:16:34,050 But and the third most important I think addition is what's what they call provenance or hierarchical inscriptions 2009 02:16:34,590 --> 02:16:39,891 Where basically now you have a capability to create an inscription that represents your identity 2010 02:16:40,751 --> 02:16:45,970 Let's call it id inscription, you know, so like I would create an alex kravitz inscription 2011 02:16:46,451 --> 02:16:52,691 Then underneath that I could create a hierarchical file system of all my creative work like I could say 2012 02:16:53,230 --> 02:16:55,970 Collections and then inside each collection. I would create 2013 02:16:56,610 --> 02:17:00,290 A bunch of collections that hierarchically trustlessly contain 2014 02:17:01,151 --> 02:17:02,371 inscriptions 2015 02:17:02,371 --> 02:17:07,170 And the best part is that the artist can now seal the collections by burning 2016 02:17:08,131 --> 02:17:15,730 Like the root inscription and therefore provably making it impossible to print any more of that particular collection 2017 02:17:16,450 --> 02:17:18,450 so you now have basically like 2018 02:17:18,931 --> 02:17:21,251 the best of all possible worlds nft 2019 02:17:22,131 --> 02:17:25,090 And file system storage. So for example, you can take 2020 02:17:25,891 --> 02:17:26,931 um 2021 02:17:26,931 --> 02:17:28,931 a whole library of source code 2022 02:17:29,090 --> 02:17:32,610 Or or a bunch of doc, you know, baby pictures that you want to back up 2023 02:17:33,251 --> 02:17:35,251 and completely trustlessly 2024 02:17:36,110 --> 02:17:41,730 Associated with your own identity inscription that only you can control and all those things will have 2025 02:17:42,371 --> 02:17:46,871 Perfect trustless uncensorable provenance to your identity inscription 2026 02:17:48,291 --> 02:17:53,990 Well, that's pretty neat. I think that's also hope part of like what I would hope to have achieved 2027 02:17:55,810 --> 02:17:59,190 With sidechains where we have already resurrected the Namecoin sidechain 2028 02:18:00,131 --> 02:18:02,131 and I think 2029 02:18:02,450 --> 02:18:04,450 Not that they compete 2030 02:18:04,450 --> 02:18:08,450 I think that this just speaks though to how annoying it is that 2031 02:18:08,850 --> 02:18:10,850 You know 2032 02:18:10,931 --> 02:18:12,931 People compare things to gold 2033 02:18:13,090 --> 02:18:14,931 which they should 2034 02:18:14,931 --> 02:18:19,411 but of course gold has many alternative uses and many of them were discovered, you know, like 2035 02:18:20,371 --> 02:18:24,690 Gold was first discovered and then it was made into jewelry. And and then later it was made 2036 02:18:25,570 --> 02:18:28,131 You know like hundreds of years later. It was made into coins 2037 02:18:28,771 --> 02:18:32,931 And then it was used in teeth and then it was used in electricity and then whatever 2038 02:18:32,931 --> 02:18:35,011 I don't know when the japanese used it for that roof 2039 02:18:35,651 --> 02:18:37,651 that they made that one time but 2040 02:18:38,450 --> 02:18:40,450 It's not all at the same time is my point 2041 02:18:40,690 --> 02:18:42,690 And of course, it's much better 2042 02:18:42,771 --> 02:18:44,771 if you have something that 2043 02:18:46,371 --> 02:18:48,371 Um has many different 2044 02:18:50,210 --> 02:18:54,771 Like fallback use cases that makes it much better as money because when you have something like that 2045 02:18:54,931 --> 02:18:58,531 Now that that is something where you could it's basically a store where you can only pay in gold 2046 02:18:58,610 --> 02:19:00,610 You know and you convert it into like a tooth filling 2047 02:19:01,651 --> 02:19:05,330 And so groat is probably an example of something. You could only spend btc there 2048 02:19:06,291 --> 02:19:08,291 And that that you know 2049 02:19:08,450 --> 02:19:11,730 None of bitcoin made any sense to me until that website was created. So 2050 02:19:13,011 --> 02:19:19,090 I think we should do everything we can to encourage austrians used to argue about this remainder theorem or whatever which 2051 02:19:19,651 --> 02:19:21,651 You know a commodity must have some kind of 2052 02:19:23,011 --> 02:19:25,090 Regression, sorry regression. Yeah, it's not 2053 02:19:26,210 --> 02:19:28,210 Why don't you refuse? 2054 02:19:28,210 --> 02:19:35,171 But you can say now that before like, uh, the one demonstrative use case was to pay fees to transfer bitcoin 2055 02:19:35,810 --> 02:19:37,970 And now you can pay a fee to publish 2056 02:19:38,610 --> 02:19:43,891 You know a thousand page website forever and never pay hosting again and then have that website be 2057 02:19:44,830 --> 02:19:48,371 Unsensible immutable and interactive at the same time 2058 02:19:49,171 --> 02:19:52,210 And that you need to use bitcoin to pay those fees, right? 2059 02:19:52,690 --> 02:19:56,771 The tragedy of this old. Yeah. No, I think all that's great. I mean the problem with the 2060 02:19:57,651 --> 02:19:59,651 regression theorem is that 2061 02:20:00,371 --> 02:20:02,371 It's it's designed to just critique 2062 02:20:03,246 --> 02:20:10,046 Government money and it doesn't really do that because it it says that you need to have the money used needs to have alternate employments 2063 02:20:10,686 --> 02:20:13,806 First something needs to be used for something else before it can be money 2064 02:20:14,766 --> 02:20:17,806 But that but that's never defined at all 2065 02:20:18,126 --> 02:20:21,965 So it could just be people acquiring just because they like they like to look at it 2066 02:20:22,125 --> 02:20:24,446 And it ignores the fact that the fiat currency also has 2067 02:20:26,045 --> 02:20:29,646 Yeah, it ignores the fact that money because credit is also money 2068 02:20:30,606 --> 02:20:31,885 Right 2069 02:20:31,885 --> 02:20:34,366 Pretends that money all money is a commodity of some kind 2070 02:20:35,246 --> 02:20:37,326 it must be a physical object or something which 2071 02:20:38,446 --> 02:20:43,086 but that would no reciprocity would make any sense like people being invited to a dinner party and then 2072 02:20:43,486 --> 02:20:47,885 I'll have you over for my birthday and then we'll go over to your house for your none of that would make any sense 2073 02:20:48,525 --> 02:20:50,525 if 2074 02:20:50,685 --> 02:20:54,045 I'll marry off my daughter to your son, you know in exchange for 2075 02:20:54,766 --> 02:20:57,646 You making me a high priest of the clan or whatever 2076 02:20:59,726 --> 02:21:06,606 Right, so unfortunately is not that mises is best even though it is mises is one of the greats 2077 02:21:07,646 --> 02:21:09,646 we all love von mises, but 2078 02:21:10,205 --> 02:21:12,046 that theorem 2079 02:21:12,046 --> 02:21:16,765 It has no content because he doesn't say what he means about in whatever has to be used for first 2080 02:21:17,006 --> 02:21:20,926 So it could just be anything it could just be that they like looking at it or in the the fiat case 2081 02:21:21,006 --> 02:21:22,686 It could just be that they like 2082 02:21:22,686 --> 02:21:26,686 Supporting the government or it could be that they like paying taxes or being able to pay taxes 2083 02:21:26,686 --> 02:21:31,726 You know, it's like none of it doesn't actually mean it it fails at its task, which is supposed to lead to 2084 02:21:32,926 --> 02:21:36,686 Sort things into what could be money and what could not it doesn't actually do that. So 2085 02:21:37,485 --> 02:21:39,165 but 2086 02:21:39,165 --> 02:21:41,165 Von mises if you're listening 2087 02:21:41,726 --> 02:21:47,646 I just wanted to add something that inscriptions do provide competition to potential drivechains like for example 2088 02:21:48,445 --> 02:21:49,485 um 2089 02:21:49,485 --> 02:21:51,485 the name chain drivechain 2090 02:21:51,966 --> 02:21:57,566 Yeah, I think that's the case people are gonna and the Namecoin is going to prefer that 2091 02:21:58,205 --> 02:22:04,845 Everyone use the same phone book so they will have strong network effects. So whoever whoever's name thing takes off first will probably 2092 02:22:05,485 --> 02:22:06,606 win 2093 02:22:06,606 --> 02:22:08,046 It's that 2094 02:22:08,046 --> 02:22:15,885 Sidechains while being more scalable than roll-ups or encrypt or inscriptions because they're not limited by the data availability of bitcoin, right? 2095 02:22:16,445 --> 02:22:18,686 At the same time they need to develop their own 2096 02:22:19,246 --> 02:22:21,085 They need to achieve their own 2097 02:22:21,085 --> 02:22:23,085 escape velocity in order to become 2098 02:22:23,406 --> 02:22:24,606 uh 2099 02:22:24,606 --> 02:22:27,885 secure enough to be to be trusted right whereas 2100 02:22:28,606 --> 02:22:36,066 Both inscriptions and sovereign roll-ups on bitcoin automatically inherit immutability and double spend resistance of bitcoin 2101 02:22:37,005 --> 02:22:40,525 Uh, and you know in this regime of low fees, right? 2102 02:22:40,925 --> 02:22:44,525 Which we're still in right now, although, you know, we haven't had a block 2103 02:22:45,085 --> 02:22:48,766 a mempool clearing in like since april 23rd, which is 2104 02:22:49,326 --> 02:22:52,686 Amazing in a bear market. Just wait till the bull market hits, right? 2105 02:22:53,326 --> 02:22:54,525 um 2106 02:22:54,525 --> 02:22:58,686 Once the basically I I see I see such compelling 2107 02:23:00,686 --> 02:23:05,966 That I think the Namecoin one will but you're right you're 100 correct the trade-off will be this it will be 2108 02:23:07,885 --> 02:23:11,746 Being on L1 has many advantages such as immortality 2109 02:23:12,066 --> 02:23:13,585 And 2110 02:23:13,585 --> 02:23:21,266 That's pretty cool. But the L1 has the same problem. It's always had which is the limited block space cannot support critical mass of 2111 02:23:21,986 --> 02:23:23,665 end users 2112 02:23:23,665 --> 02:23:28,466 It can support luxury users, right? And those are the ones that pay the fees, right? 2113 02:23:28,546 --> 02:23:34,486 So in other words, it's the fact that if bitcoin transactions go to fifty dollars per transaction 2114 02:23:35,025 --> 02:23:37,025 and bitcoin remains only for 2115 02:23:37,566 --> 02:23:40,305 Essentially whales and institutions that will not stop 2116 02:23:40,945 --> 02:23:42,945 Luxury inscribed wars 2117 02:23:43,025 --> 02:23:50,385 From inscribing all of their baby pictures for a couple hundred bucks and making the whole thing a legacy. That's true kids and grandkids, right? 2118 02:23:51,025 --> 02:23:53,025 so we 2119 02:23:56,305 --> 02:23:58,785 It's a kind of a judgment call I agree with you 2120 02:23:59,505 --> 02:24:02,145 and it's a judgment call and i'm certainly not saying that I 2121 02:24:02,706 --> 02:24:03,826 am 2122 02:24:03,826 --> 02:24:07,425 I don't so i'm not very confident. But if I just if you look around the world and you see 2123 02:24:08,225 --> 02:24:11,025 The wealthy people of the world they use the same iphone that 2124 02:24:11,826 --> 02:24:12,785 many of the 2125 02:24:12,785 --> 02:24:14,785 relatively poorer people have same 2126 02:24:15,746 --> 02:24:18,626 same iphone and it's just like walmart versus 2127 02:24:19,425 --> 02:24:21,425 you compare walmart to like 2128 02:24:22,226 --> 02:24:23,825 I don't know 2129 02:24:23,825 --> 02:24:31,105 Rolex, you know, but the but the poor people in india or whatever they get those androids for 10 to 20 dollars 2130 02:24:31,186 --> 02:24:35,825 The chinese android clones and they also get fifty to a hundred dollar older 2131 02:24:36,386 --> 02:24:37,985 iphone models 2132 02:24:37,985 --> 02:24:41,506 So there's like a trickle down effect that once the high end is full 2133 02:24:42,066 --> 02:24:48,226 Then there is a trickle down to lower levels that you see you see this exactly this waterfall kind of multi-level fountain effect 2134 02:24:48,305 --> 02:24:52,226 In ethereum world where ethereum is like a luxury evm chain 2135 02:24:53,265 --> 02:25:00,066 That people, you know people who are whales or institutions don't care about paying fifty dollars to invoke a smart contract 2136 02:25:00,145 --> 02:25:02,805 If they're moving a few million dollars worth of liquidity 2137 02:25:03,765 --> 02:25:06,246 But this high level of fees is what creates 2138 02:25:06,805 --> 02:25:10,966 high level of security double spend resistance and immutability that then allows 2139 02:25:11,605 --> 02:25:13,605 L2 ecosystem to 2140 02:25:13,686 --> 02:25:20,805 Flourish and then you can perform a million transactions for the same amount on some highly scalable ethereum L2 2141 02:25:20,886 --> 02:25:23,765 So you basically have like this hybrid situation where you'll have both 2142 02:25:24,325 --> 02:25:26,325 You'll have a luxury L1 2143 02:25:26,726 --> 02:25:28,726 With high fees, but then you'll have 2144 02:25:29,045 --> 02:25:32,246 L2s and l3s with like ridiculously cheap fees 2145 02:25:33,686 --> 02:25:37,045 But so it'll be it'll be the same outcome on bitcoin 2146 02:25:37,126 --> 02:25:40,166 I think you will have basically large institutions in whales 2147 02:25:40,805 --> 02:25:43,286 and luxury, you know baby photo pictures 2148 02:25:44,406 --> 02:25:45,746 and whatever 2149 02:25:45,746 --> 02:25:48,966 Luxury nfts inscribed on bitcoin and you know 2150 02:25:48,966 --> 02:25:54,166 The artists will pay a hundred dollars to inscribe a single nft if it will then sell for ten thousand 2151 02:25:54,645 --> 02:25:56,645 On a luxury market. I mean after all 2152 02:25:57,126 --> 02:26:01,286 Fine art market today is 27 trillion dollars. It's larger than gold 2153 02:26:01,846 --> 02:26:03,846 I can't see a reason why fine 2154 02:26:05,425 --> 02:26:09,126 Immortal digital object market, which is what inscriptions are 2155 02:26:09,205 --> 02:26:11,686 They're like the ultimate form of nfts, right? 2156 02:26:12,085 --> 02:26:14,566 Why that can't get to a few trillion dollars and become? 2157 02:26:15,286 --> 02:26:16,485 a driver 2158 02:26:16,485 --> 02:26:18,485 of incredible fee pressure 2159 02:26:21,205 --> 02:26:23,205 Okay, so what's the fee 2160 02:26:26,406 --> 02:26:30,406 No, no, no my apocalypse rests on the existence of the fee market, right 2161 02:26:30,966 --> 02:26:35,765 And you you should not disagree with the following statement that the fee market only begins 2162 02:26:36,566 --> 02:26:38,805 on the last day that the mempool clears 2163 02:26:39,846 --> 02:26:45,605 Prior to that time the fee market cannot be said to exist because there is no equilibrium between supply and demand 2164 02:26:46,085 --> 02:26:51,525 So maybe we are in the fee market regime now because the fee market the mempool has not cleared since 2165 02:26:51,925 --> 02:26:57,305 Since april 23rd and my hunch is it will never clear again because of all these new developments 2166 02:26:58,006 --> 02:27:00,006 But we are finally at that point 2167 02:27:00,566 --> 02:27:05,846 That ethereum was in in 2019 when their when their mempool stopped clearing too 2168 02:27:06,645 --> 02:27:10,966 Right. So we are now just entering the fee market the first real fee market 2169 02:27:14,166 --> 02:27:16,645 Uh, but that's not quite the point though, I I would say 2170 02:27:18,006 --> 02:27:20,006 I would say like 2171 02:27:20,166 --> 02:27:23,525 cost per transaction like us dollars per 2172 02:27:24,786 --> 02:27:26,786 220 bytes or something like that 2173 02:27:27,186 --> 02:27:34,305 But that's not very high right now, so it has to be like five times ten times what a credit card would 2174 02:27:36,865 --> 02:27:40,545 Charge in that equivalent situation, you know what I mean has to be like well 2175 02:27:40,626 --> 02:27:46,545 It has to be high now, but you know that it has a non-linear response to demand because absolutely. Yes 2176 02:27:46,865 --> 02:27:49,746 we know that's the key between the small empty blocks and 2177 02:27:50,386 --> 02:27:54,786 I would really say that actually it's not so much that the mempool doesn't clear. It's like 2178 02:27:55,746 --> 02:27:57,746 When there is 2179 02:27:57,746 --> 02:27:59,906 Less space or just the right amount 2180 02:28:00,626 --> 02:28:02,626 It kind of doesn't matter 2181 02:28:02,705 --> 02:28:04,386 But as soon as there is 2182 02:28:04,386 --> 02:28:08,865 Scarcity i'm saying like going back and looking at the charts of fees of you know 2183 02:28:08,865 --> 02:28:14,386 Since the launch of bitcoin until now, I think is meaningless. The only charts that are meaningful are the charts that begin 2184 02:28:15,585 --> 02:28:20,705 Hopefully april 23rd this year and when I talk about non-linear response 2185 02:28:21,506 --> 02:28:24,226 The way I think about it is roughly 2186 02:28:25,265 --> 02:28:31,186 All in you have about 100 gigabytes worth of block space produced by bitcoin per year 2187 02:28:31,906 --> 02:28:36,386 So you can now think about 100 gigabytes of immortal data storage space 2188 02:28:37,105 --> 02:28:43,985 Produced for all of the unknown unknown applications yet. I mean a single sovereign roll-up that's about to be launched, right? 2189 02:28:44,545 --> 02:28:48,865 Could create could easily fill up that much with data storage, right? 2190 02:28:49,186 --> 02:28:53,586 You have luxury ordinals you have conventional bitcoin transactions everything, right? 2191 02:28:54,066 --> 02:29:01,105 And when I say non-linear response, what i'm talking about is simply ongoing adoption of bitcoin and ongoing adoption of 2192 02:29:01,805 --> 02:29:07,586 Inscriptions, etc, etc are hitting this immovable wall of 100 gigabytes per year 2193 02:29:08,545 --> 02:29:11,105 And once that once it hits that wall 2194 02:29:11,746 --> 02:29:15,826 You will quickly have the separation of bitcoin into this luxury 2195 02:29:16,045 --> 02:29:18,785 L1 chain the same thing we already saw happen in ethereum, right? 2196 02:29:18,785 --> 02:29:24,706 Like once it hit the wall and the blocks and the mempool stopped clearing but adoption continued 2197 02:29:25,665 --> 02:29:29,105 This is when the feepocalypse already happened in ethereum. And this is why 2198 02:29:29,725 --> 02:29:36,225 Ethereum is now scaling through L2s and has enough fee revenue to pay the yield, etc, etc 2199 02:29:36,706 --> 02:29:39,425 So there's no escaping 100 gigabytes per year 2200 02:29:40,146 --> 02:29:43,105 And I honestly can back up that much of my own data 2201 02:29:44,066 --> 02:29:46,225 And and leave it all encrypted in there, you know 2202 02:29:47,026 --> 02:29:49,026 easily, right 2203 02:29:49,186 --> 02:29:51,985 Uh, I agree with that. I mean it may be isn't it? 2204 02:29:52,686 --> 02:29:54,686 1008 blocks per week 2205 02:29:54,785 --> 02:29:57,985 52 weeks per year. So it is 52 000 ish 2206 02:29:59,506 --> 02:30:02,086 Uh blocks per year, so if you use the whole four megabytes 2207 02:30:03,186 --> 02:30:07,186 You can actually get the whole four megabytes to get to 200 gigabytes 2208 02:30:07,266 --> 02:30:10,386 But because of because the financial transactions do not use 2209 02:30:11,186 --> 02:30:19,345 They're not discounted if you assume the mix between financial and non-financial transactions in some kind of equilibrium you have to divide by two 2210 02:30:20,305 --> 02:30:24,886 Right because financial transactions only use 50 like if all transactions were financial 2211 02:30:25,266 --> 02:30:28,465 The actual block space would peak at 50 gigabytes per year 2212 02:30:28,865 --> 02:30:35,186 So i'm just assuming some kind of equilibrium between financial and non-financial transactions at 100 gigabytes per year 2213 02:30:36,225 --> 02:30:38,225 because if every transaction was 2214 02:30:38,865 --> 02:30:42,805 You know an inscription, oh by the way another interesting development is because of this recursivity 2215 02:30:43,586 --> 02:30:46,405 You can now inscribe a terabyte size inscription 2216 02:30:47,186 --> 02:30:49,026 in multiple transactions 2217 02:30:49,026 --> 02:30:51,826 That assembles itself from four megabyte pieces 2218 02:30:52,626 --> 02:30:57,506 So there's actually not even a four megabyte limit anymore. You can actually put a terabyte size 2219 02:30:58,066 --> 02:31:03,925 Well, I mean that'll take a few years. Well, that was obviously any of us who remember the days of winrar 2220 02:31:05,186 --> 02:31:07,186 That would be intuitive already 2221 02:31:07,826 --> 02:31:12,545 Exactly but but now it's like it's going to be on all these inscription, uh, you know, uh 2222 02:31:13,405 --> 02:31:17,446 Explorers where you basically, you know, you have a little button in there called upload inscription 2223 02:31:17,905 --> 02:31:19,905 And it used to be that that button would say 2224 02:31:20,305 --> 02:31:24,305 Uh, well only upload up to 400 kilobytes because the others are non-standard 2225 02:31:24,305 --> 02:31:30,305 But now these explorers have basically agreements with with pools that allow them to upload 2226 02:31:30,865 --> 02:31:32,126 four megabyte 2227 02:31:32,126 --> 02:31:34,126 Inscriptions and pay out of band 2228 02:31:34,126 --> 02:31:37,805 But the latest development is I want to upload a gigabyte size file 2229 02:31:38,526 --> 02:31:41,746 And okay, no problem. We'll chop it up and we'll use recursion 2230 02:31:42,365 --> 02:31:44,365 to reassemble the file 2231 02:31:44,425 --> 02:31:45,566 dynamically 2232 02:31:45,566 --> 02:31:47,566 You know from whatever 200 2233 02:31:48,266 --> 02:31:55,006 Subinscriptions that are all referred to by a parent inscription as parts. So it's a multi-part world, too 2234 02:31:58,365 --> 02:32:01,566 Okay moonsettler and rio have had their hands up for a while 2235 02:32:02,446 --> 02:32:04,925 Just a comment a little bit about oh, go ahead you first 2236 02:32:06,605 --> 02:32:08,605 I'll save this 2237 02:32:15,725 --> 02:32:17,725 Okay, okay, um, i'm just gonna say 2238 02:32:17,886 --> 02:32:19,785 a couple of things 2239 02:32:19,785 --> 02:32:24,285 Hypothetically SegWit that is not perpetual and immutable. It is allowed to be pruned 2240 02:32:24,285 --> 02:32:29,485 Will that ever really happen in practice? Probably not at this point given the popularity of inscriptions, but I do 2241 02:32:30,206 --> 02:32:33,566 Just want to clarify SegWit data is not 2242 02:32:34,985 --> 02:32:36,285 officially 2243 02:32:36,285 --> 02:32:42,446 Part of the bitcoin requirement for nodes to hold they are entitled to prune it. We could have assumed value 2244 02:32:42,446 --> 02:32:45,405 This is why SegWit was a soft fork in practice that is 2245 02:32:45,965 --> 02:32:51,186 Almost never done and probably given the value of holding it. But when we say these are perpetual 2246 02:32:52,045 --> 02:32:54,706 And the data on the inscriptions that is under the presumption 2247 02:32:55,345 --> 02:32:59,686 That they will not be pruning that becomes very very popular or even if it is perpetual 2248 02:32:59,985 --> 02:33:06,066 It may load slower than one would think because there's only certain nodes that maintain SegWit witness data from 2249 02:33:06,545 --> 02:33:09,186 Two decades ago and aren't pruning 2250 02:33:09,665 --> 02:33:13,266 I doubt because of technology improvements that that would ever be a concern for storage 2251 02:33:13,266 --> 02:33:21,026 But if we are the old school small blockers that want extreme decentralization and nodes a pruned node is easier to run than a non-pruned node 2252 02:33:21,425 --> 02:33:23,605 Just putting it out there love recursions 2253 02:33:24,225 --> 02:33:25,905 on inscriptions 2254 02:33:25,905 --> 02:33:27,345 love code 2255 02:33:27,345 --> 02:33:29,345 base and storage and 2256 02:33:29,345 --> 02:33:34,886 Witness data as a use case and a fee utility. I myself have put javascript 2257 02:33:35,405 --> 02:33:38,946 html that renders dynamic svgs on an inscription 2258 02:33:39,186 --> 02:33:41,345 That's my pfp on chain pepe 2259 02:33:41,425 --> 02:33:45,665 Just a pixel pepe where you can turn on and off laser eyes or bubble gum 2260 02:33:46,225 --> 02:33:51,446 And you can change the colors all on an inscription like the gentleman saying with the code there a dynamic 2261 02:33:52,386 --> 02:33:56,305 piece of art where you can change the traits or change the colors like a 2262 02:33:56,845 --> 02:34:00,246 Nft people do when you think about a trait based nft 2263 02:34:01,026 --> 02:34:03,746 very much there with recursion enabling that 2264 02:34:04,305 --> 02:34:06,305 all all all positive to what the 2265 02:34:06,386 --> 02:34:12,946 The gentleman said but the other thing I just want to talk about is the centralization of the indexer and the sequencer on ordinals 2266 02:34:13,026 --> 02:34:17,186 When we talk about immutable permissionless and unsensible with regard to the website 2267 02:34:17,345 --> 02:34:23,186 I think that's a little out of ourselves if I may critique giving the centralization of the sequencer index 2268 02:34:24,305 --> 02:34:25,985 Not that I don't love ordinals and what's happening there 2269 02:34:25,985 --> 02:34:32,626 But I just want to make sure we try to be as complete with what isn't isn't fully trustless fully decentralized and as hard as bitcoin 2270 02:34:33,266 --> 02:34:35,266 If I could if I could respond 2271 02:34:35,665 --> 02:34:40,386 that the reason why it's not an issue as far as prunability of SegWit data is because 2272 02:34:41,105 --> 02:34:44,305 We're talking about data availability not data storage 2273 02:34:45,105 --> 02:34:50,146 So the fact that uh an inscription when published will be propagated and made available 2274 02:34:50,225 --> 02:34:56,225 That's kind of what the best you can hope for and there will always be nodes that are archiving every node every block 2275 02:34:56,785 --> 02:35:01,026 Especially like you said because we're talking about 200 gigabytes of data per year 2276 02:35:01,826 --> 02:35:05,425 uh linearly increasing when we now have like, you know, uh 2277 02:35:05,985 --> 02:35:10,006 A tiny flash cards that can store, you know, 4 to 16 terabytes 2278 02:35:10,465 --> 02:35:14,386 So that's not going to be an issue. There's always going to be hundreds of archival nodes 2279 02:35:14,386 --> 02:35:17,186 That will just feed you every block even if 99 of nodes 2280 02:35:17,905 --> 02:35:20,946 Uh prune all the blocks or just the SegWit data 2281 02:35:21,345 --> 02:35:27,345 The other thing about centralization of indexes, there is no barrier to entry right into that business. Anybody can launch 2282 02:35:27,905 --> 02:35:29,905 an indexer website 2283 02:35:29,905 --> 02:35:32,706 And just like you have hundreds of block explorers you'll have 2284 02:35:33,186 --> 02:35:38,386 Or you can run your own node right you can simply run your own bitcoin node and see all the artwork 2285 02:35:39,105 --> 02:35:40,946 so so 2286 02:35:40,946 --> 02:35:42,946 I mean the fact that certain 2287 02:35:43,006 --> 02:35:48,066 Indexers are popular. I don't see as a sort of like an inherent centralization pressure because 2288 02:35:48,545 --> 02:35:56,146 It is though. I don't like casey's arbitrary block height. I run my own independent indexers now my pointers go differently 2289 02:35:56,146 --> 02:36:00,706 So do you build on casey's ecosystem of ordinal recursions or mine if I run an independent? 2290 02:36:01,266 --> 02:36:03,266 I don't like it 2291 02:36:03,425 --> 02:36:09,026 Right, it's like forking and and bitcoin right you will you will have incompatibility but at the same time 2292 02:36:09,506 --> 02:36:11,506 there's like huge pressure to 2293 02:36:11,826 --> 02:36:13,826 to reach consensus on the protocol 2294 02:36:14,305 --> 02:36:17,266 and I think casey's case's protocol will probably 2295 02:36:18,066 --> 02:36:23,985 Uh win out because casey's at this point casey's like satoshi in the early years and he hasn't quit the project yet 2296 02:36:23,985 --> 02:36:25,586 But he probably will 2297 02:36:25,586 --> 02:36:28,326 Uh in a year or two, right like once the protocol stabilizes 2298 02:36:29,285 --> 02:36:34,506 Um the ordinal's protocol with all these, you know, three mega features, which is one is recursiveness 2299 02:36:35,686 --> 02:36:39,045 Recursiveness of inscriptions and I think even a bigger one is this whole 2300 02:36:39,605 --> 02:36:41,605 provenance or nestedness 2301 02:36:41,686 --> 02:36:47,066 Of inscriptions because i'm actually tempted to create my own identity for the first time on bitcoin 2302 02:36:47,686 --> 02:36:49,686 and have that identity actually be 2303 02:36:50,485 --> 02:36:52,485 like the root of my all of my 2304 02:36:53,365 --> 02:36:55,126 stuff that I want 2305 02:36:55,126 --> 02:36:59,605 Because that's the first time that you can publish something in a completely, you know 2306 02:37:00,225 --> 02:37:05,605 Immutable immortal uncensorable way and then have it all provenance back to you trustlessly, right? 2307 02:37:08,406 --> 02:37:09,445 Yeah, I agree 2308 02:37:09,445 --> 02:37:13,926 Hierarchical aspects and the recursion is definitely the case and I agree it requires 2309 02:37:14,646 --> 02:37:16,646 the social consensus to a single protocol 2310 02:37:17,445 --> 02:37:19,445 in terms of curse numbers 2311 02:37:19,445 --> 02:37:24,246 And and how to handle the reinscriptions that's probably likely been made and I do hope everything you 2312 02:37:24,725 --> 02:37:27,845 Said comes comes to pass. I also agree. I think it will but I just 2313 02:37:28,485 --> 02:37:30,485 pointed out the the critiques 2314 02:37:30,485 --> 02:37:32,485 We're just in like the year 2009 2315 02:37:32,886 --> 02:37:35,225 We're just in the year 2009 or 2010 2316 02:37:36,246 --> 02:37:40,266 Once casey quits and you know and leaves the project fatherless 2317 02:37:40,886 --> 02:37:47,926 Which probably will happen once the protocol stabilizes at that point you can say well, you know ossification started to set in for inscriptions, right? 2318 02:37:50,325 --> 02:37:52,325 Yeah, you make 2319 02:37:55,126 --> 02:37:56,325 Because 2320 02:37:56,325 --> 02:37:58,325 It's true that you could 2321 02:37:58,646 --> 02:38:02,886 I guess it would always be cat and mouse like it'd be like stamps would just be where it would go 2322 02:38:06,965 --> 02:38:10,506 I guess it's it's interesting how whether or not it's really immortal 2323 02:38:11,685 --> 02:38:13,685 It sort of is 2324 02:38:14,646 --> 02:38:16,646 Publication, right? Yeah. Sorry 2325 02:38:17,205 --> 02:38:18,325 Go ahead 2326 02:38:18,325 --> 02:38:23,685 Yeah, I wanted us and you kind of answered my second question, which was about 2327 02:38:24,166 --> 02:38:31,605 What what do you guys think about the possibility that bitcoiners in response will go to like a pruning network? 2328 02:38:32,406 --> 02:38:34,406 just to like 2329 02:38:34,965 --> 02:38:42,246 Be able to use the bitcoin block space for financial transactions and like completely demolish any notion of of 2330 02:38:42,465 --> 02:38:44,246 Of 2331 02:38:44,246 --> 02:38:45,445 permanence 2332 02:38:45,445 --> 02:38:51,126 For exogenous data storage and in theory with this zero sync 2333 02:38:52,546 --> 02:38:54,325 development and 2334 02:38:54,325 --> 02:38:56,166 and heavy pruning 2335 02:38:56,166 --> 02:38:59,526 you could like really really reduce the 2336 02:39:00,085 --> 02:39:04,325 The significance and the number of the fully archiving nodes enough that 2337 02:39:04,945 --> 02:39:06,806 basically is not 2338 02:39:06,806 --> 02:39:12,886 Really winning out against cloud storage, uh for the redundancy and data availability you get 2339 02:39:13,445 --> 02:39:15,926 for the price impact the economic 2340 02:39:18,085 --> 02:39:25,286 Monsanto i'm not worried about it because remember bitcoin today has a single honest peer assumption where somebody needs to give you the heaviest chain 2341 02:39:25,845 --> 02:39:28,565 even if 99% of your peers are sponsored by 2342 02:39:29,126 --> 02:39:34,725 Chinese communist party. So this archival of data is the same thing. You need to find one 2343 02:39:35,426 --> 02:39:40,325 Archiving node that's actually not pruning and once you have found a peer 2344 02:39:41,205 --> 02:39:45,126 Well in the future, right once you such once you found one archiving peer 2345 02:39:45,926 --> 02:39:47,605 That peer does not 2346 02:39:47,605 --> 02:39:52,006 you know the data that comes from that peer does not need to be trusted right and then you can 2347 02:39:52,806 --> 02:39:58,906 Recreate the archive locally by running your own node. So the same kind of people have to that's my point 2348 02:39:59,805 --> 02:40:02,685 People don't have to but as long as some people will 2349 02:40:03,325 --> 02:40:08,605 The data is immortal still right because you you would simply need to find a single archiving peer 2350 02:40:08,685 --> 02:40:14,125 Just like today you need to find a single honest peer that gives you the heaviest chain. It's the same kind of assumption 2351 02:40:15,405 --> 02:40:23,165 With zero sync you don't actually have to because uh, you are just getting zero knowledge proofs of uh first the header chain 2352 02:40:23,725 --> 02:40:25,725 as soon as 2353 02:40:30,444 --> 02:40:35,725 But I know you don't have to but if it costs you less than a dollar to archive everything because you know 2354 02:40:35,725 --> 02:40:39,565 10 years from now entire bitcoin blockchain will cost one penny to store 2355 02:40:40,365 --> 02:40:47,325 uh, you know on non-volatile storage, you will have plenty of these archiving column, you know, and it's true that 2356 02:40:49,244 --> 02:40:53,005 The zero sync does let you shortcut but you cannot 2357 02:40:54,284 --> 02:40:57,885 Not everyone can use zero sync. There has to be someone who stores 2358 02:40:58,845 --> 02:41:00,845 Right 2359 02:41:01,084 --> 02:41:06,044 And uh, and that would that that could be reduced to like uh miners uh large 2360 02:41:06,925 --> 02:41:08,925 uh financial nodes and uh 2361 02:41:09,485 --> 02:41:10,364 and uh 2362 02:41:10,364 --> 02:41:12,364 Block explorer providers 2363 02:41:15,565 --> 02:41:21,885 Yeah, i'm not saying i'm not saying there is a possibility that it goes away i'm saying that the current level of 2364 02:41:22,184 --> 02:41:24,605 replication of the bitcoin blockchain the current 2365 02:41:25,544 --> 02:41:27,544 uh perception of of 2366 02:41:27,885 --> 02:41:30,224 complete permissionlessness and immutability 2367 02:41:31,084 --> 02:41:37,165 might might be on purpose given up just for that, uh, you know, the bitcoin users can actually 2368 02:41:37,805 --> 02:41:43,084 Like use the block space. This would be like one direction. It can go the other direction 2369 02:41:43,565 --> 02:41:48,605 Uh, it can go is is like really creating less desirable block spaces 2370 02:41:49,084 --> 02:41:53,404 Just for their endness so so that they are not unique not single 2371 02:41:54,044 --> 02:41:56,205 so any sidechain type thing 2372 02:41:57,165 --> 02:42:05,165 Must by default be less desirable for the luxury use case and and the financial transactions can be more competitive there, I guess 2373 02:42:06,044 --> 02:42:07,165 and 2374 02:42:07,165 --> 02:42:08,285 and 2375 02:42:08,285 --> 02:42:12,604 I I really really hated this idea before to be honest, but 2376 02:42:13,404 --> 02:42:14,445 actually 2377 02:42:14,445 --> 02:42:16,445 it might be possible that 2378 02:42:17,324 --> 02:42:24,684 That to further restrict and discourage this sort of use the the bitcoin users might actually agree on a block size reduction 2379 02:42:24,925 --> 02:42:28,044 On the main chain. So the what do you think about that? 2380 02:42:30,524 --> 02:42:38,124 Uh, I think the time of everything will has ended there will be nothing everything will be contentious from now on I think 2381 02:42:40,604 --> 02:42:43,884 Well also reducing the block size essentially kills 2382 02:42:44,524 --> 02:42:49,884 all the lightning style L2s including arc and lightning etc, because those depend on 2383 02:42:50,764 --> 02:42:58,044 Ability to appeal to the chain inexpensively, right? So reducing the block size essentially, you know kills 2384 02:42:59,085 --> 02:43:04,925 all all non-custodial lightning and it probably destroys arc and other coin pools and other protocols that 2385 02:43:05,404 --> 02:43:07,404 Still need to use a lot 2386 02:43:08,445 --> 02:43:11,005 Yeah, so that will not go over easy 2387 02:43:11,645 --> 02:43:18,684 but um, imagine the precedent of somebody essentially stealing, you know, wiki leaks like treasure trove of 2388 02:43:19,244 --> 02:43:21,884 Of highly embarrassing information and publishing it 2389 02:43:22,524 --> 02:43:23,565 under 2390 02:43:23,565 --> 02:43:24,684 you know 2391 02:43:24,684 --> 02:43:29,085 High provenance root as a giant collection of data into inscriptions, right? 2392 02:43:29,705 --> 02:43:35,645 Anonymously today that would be more infuriating to the u.s. Government, but because the government will be helpless about it 2393 02:43:36,285 --> 02:43:38,524 This will not be pursued or publicized right? 2394 02:43:39,005 --> 02:43:45,005 Because they will pretend, you know, like it hasn't happened. Like for example, there's plenty of highly offensive inscriptions to 2395 02:43:45,964 --> 02:43:47,884 Chinese government today 2396 02:43:47,884 --> 02:43:53,404 But they're not trying to censor bitcoin blocks through the great firewall of china as far as I know 2397 02:43:54,845 --> 02:43:58,624 Does china block ipfs today and the firewall blocks ipfs? 2398 02:44:00,264 --> 02:44:02,264 Interplanetary file storage 2399 02:44:02,985 --> 02:44:08,684 Ipfs is a failure because well, yeah, we're blocking. It's not even worth blocking 2400 02:44:10,925 --> 02:44:14,365 Okay, because yeah, you can't get a standard we have to have an explorer this that 2401 02:44:15,244 --> 02:44:17,965 Well, it's not that it's just that it's not incentive compatible 2402 02:44:18,044 --> 02:44:20,604 Essentially, it's prone to spam if you run your own node 2403 02:44:20,604 --> 02:44:23,884 Then your node will be overrun with child porn from other people 2404 02:44:24,525 --> 02:44:26,525 And you get more benefit for running a node 2405 02:44:27,324 --> 02:44:31,485 so there is like more incentive compatible like even even um, 2406 02:44:32,044 --> 02:44:36,604 even uh file coin is not truly incentive compatible because it doesn't guarantee like 2407 02:44:37,485 --> 02:44:39,485 eternal retrievability like 2408 02:44:39,724 --> 02:44:42,125 There was this other I forgot what it's called. Uh 2409 02:44:42,844 --> 02:44:47,805 Yeah, you have to write i'm pinning it's not there's no incentive to keep it perpetual similar to an archive 2410 02:44:48,205 --> 02:44:49,405 with 2411 02:44:49,405 --> 02:44:55,324 Very strong points. How can you how can you compete today with paying ten dollars worth of bitcoin? 2412 02:44:55,485 --> 02:45:01,004 And then having a website hosted forever like that's not that's nothing competes with that 2413 02:45:01,164 --> 02:45:06,044 Right and hosted forever in one place that we know that hundred years from now will still be 2414 02:45:06,905 --> 02:45:13,564 Available hosted forever if casey wins and I believe casey's protocol becomes a decentralized standard 2415 02:45:13,645 --> 02:45:15,645 But but but yeah 2416 02:45:15,805 --> 02:45:21,405 I mean like i'm more sure that that my website published in inscriptions today will be around 2417 02:45:21,485 --> 02:45:25,564 Then i'm sure that google will be around 100 years from now. I'll tell you the truth. That's fair 2418 02:45:26,284 --> 02:45:30,284 A better bet that that will figure this out and get to a consensus on ordinals in the next two years 2419 02:45:30,365 --> 02:45:33,405 Or then google will be well, I mean what's strong? What's the controversy? 2420 02:45:33,485 --> 02:45:37,085 What's the controversy there the the cursed inscription numbers I thought casey 2421 02:45:37,085 --> 02:45:40,205 Yeah on renumbering right like so that's already off the table 2422 02:45:40,205 --> 02:45:43,965 But anybody that already did a previous anybody that already did a previous cursed 2423 02:45:44,504 --> 02:45:48,925 Inscription recursion is cut off. He basically said you shouldn't have done cursed inscriptions before 2424 02:45:48,925 --> 02:45:51,164 I told you the block height where i'm going to honor cursed inscriptions 2425 02:45:51,164 --> 02:45:56,444 Some people are going to put an indexer that doesn't if they went cursed inscriptions before will it probably die out 2426 02:45:57,004 --> 02:45:59,645 As a as a side competitor and there will be this 2427 02:46:00,604 --> 02:46:05,405 One indexer like, you know, yes a large fraction of satoshi's bitcoins are sending 2428 02:46:06,125 --> 02:46:06,925 to 2429 02:46:06,925 --> 02:46:08,925 No longer standard addresses, right? 2430 02:46:09,564 --> 02:46:13,564 That's kind of like a historical artifact, but nobody cares about it now, you know 2431 02:46:14,284 --> 02:46:19,004 Exactly. So we have to forego the data that was put in cursed inscriptions prior to the 2432 02:46:19,465 --> 02:46:23,164 Recognization of cursed inscriptions at stated block height casey is about to announce 2433 02:46:23,805 --> 02:46:24,604 so 2434 02:46:24,604 --> 02:46:31,004 But then yeah, then the data any data from that point forward including cursed once they're recognized would meet your standard so 2435 02:46:31,645 --> 02:46:35,245 Uh, I I think we're gonna get where you're saying. I'm just saying it's not without I mean 2436 02:46:35,805 --> 02:46:42,525 This is like such a miner such a miner controversy, right compared to the stuff that no that's not controversial like 2437 02:46:43,145 --> 02:46:46,205 recursion and provenance, uh nesting and 2438 02:46:46,844 --> 02:46:48,844 You know the uh inscriptions 2439 02:46:49,164 --> 02:46:52,685 I mean all that stuff is like hugely like the fact when he launched inscriptions 2440 02:46:52,764 --> 02:46:57,805 I'm like i'm not doing anything with putting my data in there until provenance nesting is there because 2441 02:46:58,604 --> 02:46:59,645 I do want to you know 2442 02:46:59,645 --> 02:47:01,645 create a single inscription that then I can 2443 02:47:02,205 --> 02:47:05,245 Leave the private key for to my kids and then it's like 2444 02:47:06,365 --> 02:47:08,365 Right. Yeah 2445 02:47:09,245 --> 02:47:14,444 It's like your definitive artist signature if you're doing an art use case opposed to a data use case 2446 02:47:15,405 --> 02:47:17,405 It is very cool 2447 02:47:17,485 --> 02:47:21,485 Highly underestimated use case of provenance is that the artist? 2448 02:47:22,125 --> 02:47:24,465 Can burn the root inscription? 2449 02:47:25,004 --> 02:47:26,585 and provably 2450 02:47:26,585 --> 02:47:31,564 Terminate any possibility of anybody including himself adding to that collection, right? 2451 02:47:31,805 --> 02:47:35,324 It's like motley cruel guaranteeing. This is the last tour. We're signing 2452 02:47:37,645 --> 02:47:39,645 That's okay, I think 2453 02:47:39,645 --> 02:47:41,645 You could do that with any programming language 2454 02:47:42,284 --> 02:47:47,085 If van gogh no longer needs to die in order for his paintings to become valuable. He can just provably 2455 02:47:47,485 --> 02:47:50,444 Terminate his ability to add to that style of paintings 2456 02:47:51,324 --> 02:47:56,444 Right because the artist can just burn that root description and one thousand I mean you can 2457 02:47:57,164 --> 02:48:01,805 Apes will be will become possible to add. I mean you could just 2458 02:48:04,044 --> 02:48:08,925 Anything can be made unspendable, but that's fine. I mean, this is very interesting, but we should 2459 02:48:09,884 --> 02:48:11,884 see if anyone wants 2460 02:48:12,604 --> 02:48:16,044 Anyone else in the audience wants to bring us slightly more 2461 02:48:16,044 --> 02:48:18,044 More 2462 02:48:18,044 --> 02:48:21,645 Anything slightly more on topic per se I do think that's fascinating though 2463 02:48:22,764 --> 02:48:27,585 In the meantime one more question about this. Is there any chance like any chance whatsoever? 2464 02:48:28,365 --> 02:48:33,805 You think alex that this could go to like another blockchain? 2465 02:48:34,445 --> 02:48:41,185 Instead of bitcoin mainchain even a sidechain or like an altcoin. So like why why don't inscribers? 2466 02:48:42,144 --> 02:48:45,265 Prefer like vcash which just uh because 2467 02:48:46,704 --> 02:48:48,704 Well, they're adoptive block size 2468 02:48:49,344 --> 02:48:54,945 There's zero chance of that. I would I would I would not I mean if you're hoping for that, you know abandon all hope 2469 02:48:55,745 --> 02:48:57,265 Who hope for that? 2470 02:48:57,265 --> 02:49:00,385 and the reason for that is precisely what makes bitcoin so 2471 02:49:01,265 --> 02:49:03,265 You know so hard to change 2472 02:49:03,584 --> 02:49:09,185 in combination with this highly highly desirable protocol that was developed by casey which 2473 02:49:09,584 --> 02:49:12,144 Creates true immutable digital artifacts, right? 2474 02:49:12,865 --> 02:49:15,765 And they both have to go together in order to make inscriptions 2475 02:49:16,464 --> 02:49:24,945 As attractive as they are because every any other sidechain or even if you take casey's protocol and you launch it on a sidechain of bitcoin 2476 02:49:25,584 --> 02:49:30,325 The fact that sidechain, you know, if it's a drivechain, its survival is not really guaranteed 2477 02:49:31,104 --> 02:49:34,865 So it's like the everybody wants to be in one place 2478 02:49:35,664 --> 02:49:39,265 So there's zero chance that this will go anywhere else that's my short answer basically 2479 02:49:40,065 --> 02:49:47,185 The one proper competitor is doge and all's but again, you'd have to believe that dogecoin is going to be perpetual as much as bitcoin 2480 02:49:47,265 --> 02:49:49,664 So no, it's not it's not zero. I get 2481 02:49:50,385 --> 02:49:53,104 I understand why you would say zero, but I think 2482 02:49:55,425 --> 02:49:57,425 That's not right because 2483 02:49:59,344 --> 02:50:03,204 You have network you have network effects and you have the ability to customize 2484 02:50:04,084 --> 02:50:07,524 The new location chain in new ways 2485 02:50:08,485 --> 02:50:09,925 and you have unlimited 2486 02:50:09,925 --> 02:50:11,925 uh block space so 2487 02:50:12,245 --> 02:50:16,724 So those three are those are very powerful ingredients. I'm not saying that there's not a lot of truth 2488 02:50:17,524 --> 02:50:20,565 You're forgetting you're forgetting the veblen good dynamic, right? 2489 02:50:20,644 --> 02:50:24,724 Like the fact that these inscriptions will be expensive the fact that it will cost 2490 02:50:25,365 --> 02:50:29,125 You know a thousand dollars to put a monkey in there in a year or two 2491 02:50:29,844 --> 02:50:33,765 That will make that monkey more valuable it's kind of like a proof of work for rich people 2492 02:50:34,245 --> 02:50:39,204 The fact that there's no cheap way to mint them is is a is what makes them attractive 2493 02:50:40,245 --> 02:50:43,925 The fact that you would pay in a one dollar fee or one cent fee on polygon 2494 02:50:44,724 --> 02:50:51,065 You know, the whole veblen good dynamic is incredibly strong with with luxury ordinals and luxury inscriptions. This is underestimated 2495 02:50:53,685 --> 02:50:57,305 Yeah, I think it's underestimated but I also think it's overestimated 2496 02:50:58,104 --> 02:50:59,305 Because 2497 02:50:59,305 --> 02:51:00,825 what you're saying is that there is 2498 02:51:00,825 --> 02:51:05,065 I think we're just in early days and the only thing that people think that this could be used for 2499 02:51:05,385 --> 02:51:07,385 Is some kind of like frivolous 2500 02:51:08,664 --> 02:51:12,664 Digital art thing and I think that actually there will be many more 2501 02:51:14,104 --> 02:51:20,284 Things that are useful, um that are not like that. I mean so like, you know something like rolex 2502 02:51:21,784 --> 02:51:26,265 Is not worth as much as walmart it's like, you know, like the whole brand is worth like one 2503 02:51:26,904 --> 02:51:28,425 Thousand as much 2504 02:51:28,425 --> 02:51:34,185 Or more. It's true that you might have a bigger nft market on polygon in in aggregate 2505 02:51:34,825 --> 02:51:37,305 but my my only claim is that 2506 02:51:37,945 --> 02:51:39,945 You will have a big enough 2507 02:51:40,005 --> 02:51:42,005 inscription market on bitcoin 2508 02:51:42,185 --> 02:51:47,305 To to catalyze the apocalypse and by if apocalypse, I mean fees going to ten or twenty dollars 2509 02:51:47,784 --> 02:51:54,765 per financial transaction and staying there permanently and the reason that's apocalypse is because that essentially neutralizes 2510 02:51:55,544 --> 02:52:02,524 Non-custodial lightning or arc and it sort of immobilizes global south bitcoin savings as they stand today, right? 2511 02:52:02,524 --> 02:52:05,885 Because somebody in nigeria who has the dust. Yeah 2512 02:52:08,524 --> 02:52:14,844 Right, yeah, so somebody in nigeria who has five hundred dollars worth of bitcoin savings will not want to pay fifty dollar fee to move them 2513 02:52:15,885 --> 02:52:18,945 So you essentially you this is the point at which bitcoin 2514 02:52:19,485 --> 02:52:24,445 L1 becomes whales and institutions only and I guarantee you that this time next year 2515 02:52:25,084 --> 02:52:30,784 You know the the laser eyed priest will just tell the faithful just buy some blackrock etf to get exposure 2516 02:52:31,245 --> 02:52:32,765 and don't worry about 2517 02:52:32,765 --> 02:52:36,044 you know multi-sig setups and you know worrying about 2518 02:52:37,084 --> 02:52:39,745 Right, that will be that will be I mean i'm predicting 2519 02:52:43,084 --> 02:52:44,604 That'll be very bad 2520 02:52:44,604 --> 02:52:47,644 But that will be for bitcoin the official but it will 2521 02:52:48,284 --> 02:52:51,644 But you know what else it would be, uh, you know phenomenal for our big 300 2522 02:52:51,644 --> 02:52:56,125 of course, which would be the last lifeboat leaving the titanic in that scenario basically because 2523 02:52:56,685 --> 02:52:59,404 The L1 well, I mean and all the existing L2s 2524 02:52:59,805 --> 02:53:06,204 The feep apocalypse is good for all L2s, right including drivechains because the apocalypse causes the plebs to 2525 02:53:06,765 --> 02:53:12,365 To rebel against the priests of laser eye cult and the plebs will scrape scale bitcoin now, right? 2526 02:53:12,445 --> 02:53:18,305 Which will force some kind of L2 scaling which is not available in bitcoin today because there's no trust minimized 2527 02:53:18,945 --> 02:53:21,664 Way to move bitcoin to any kind of L2 right now 2528 02:53:22,224 --> 02:53:25,425 so both drivechains roll-ups sovereign or 2529 02:53:26,144 --> 02:53:27,664 or 2530 02:53:27,664 --> 02:53:33,425 Or non-sovereign the uh, what do they call the the the roll-ups with the with the bridge, right? 2531 02:53:34,625 --> 02:53:36,625 all kinds of 2532 02:53:36,625 --> 02:53:38,625 Yeah, not optimistic but uh 2533 02:53:39,185 --> 02:53:45,425 The other kind of provable validity roll-ups zk a validity roll-up. So validity roll-ups sovereign roll-ups 2534 02:53:45,584 --> 02:53:46,625 Uh 2535 02:53:46,625 --> 02:53:47,904 drivechains 2536 02:53:47,904 --> 02:53:49,024 Spider chain, right? 2537 02:53:49,024 --> 02:53:51,904 like you guys have heard the spider chain is out there now and 2538 02:53:52,464 --> 02:53:55,584 all kinds of L2s will finally be free because you know 2539 02:53:55,584 --> 02:54:01,904 There will be a common soft fork. There will be all these soft forks because the priests will be shown to be bankrupt in there 2540 02:54:02,704 --> 02:54:04,704 you know in their ideology of 2541 02:54:04,945 --> 02:54:10,945 Claiming that bitcoin is for the global south billions while the fees of perma high at 20 to 50 bucks 2542 02:54:11,745 --> 02:54:13,745 I 2543 02:54:14,144 --> 02:54:18,945 Would just count that the global south currently works in the us dollar with 40 wire fees 2544 02:54:19,024 --> 02:54:23,664 Which is a travesty and does lock them out and why a majority of the global south don't have access to it 2545 02:54:23,825 --> 02:54:28,084 But I will say that the the current use case does not provide them a better alternative 2546 02:54:28,865 --> 02:54:31,664 Than 40 transactions. That's the problem bitcoins 2547 02:54:31,664 --> 02:54:38,704 Try not to solve trying to solve not be the same as your point is extremely well taken one other thing though 2548 02:54:39,344 --> 02:54:45,024 Uh, I will say I do think paul made a spectacular point providence luxury good fully granted 2549 02:54:45,745 --> 02:54:47,745 If I believe script hash 2550 02:54:48,065 --> 02:54:54,625 And script mining and dogecoin is not going anywhere and I just want to have a permissionless website where I want to put javascript packages 2551 02:54:55,245 --> 02:55:01,425 Doginals is a legitimate threat to ordinals from a recursion standpoint because it is copyable and they don't have the controversy of kc 2552 02:55:01,825 --> 02:55:07,425 that's that I only think that's for the use case of technical immutable websites and javascript open source publishing 2553 02:55:08,305 --> 02:55:10,385 And I don't need it to be prominent 2554 02:55:10,464 --> 02:55:14,544 I functionally need it in combination with the doge being lower fees to do that 2555 02:55:14,625 --> 02:55:18,964 I do think there is a challenge to inscriptions utility use case by doginals 2556 02:55:19,985 --> 02:55:22,065 as ridiculous as of course a shitcoin is 2557 02:55:22,784 --> 02:55:24,385 but 2558 02:55:24,385 --> 02:55:28,784 If i'm a programmer and i'm like we said in nigeria and I want to make my immutable website 2559 02:55:29,104 --> 02:55:34,385 I'm, not putting it on inscriptions. I'm putting it on doginals as crazy as it sounds right because of what you speak of 2560 02:55:34,625 --> 02:55:36,625 of the cost prohibitiveness 2561 02:55:37,505 --> 02:55:39,505 I 2562 02:55:47,505 --> 02:55:49,985 Mean yeah, the cost is of course a double-edged sword 2563 02:55:50,945 --> 02:55:56,464 It's a double-edged sword, but those journals will I don't see them being any more over threat than than bitcoin 2564 02:55:56,865 --> 02:56:01,985 Satoshi vision is to bitcoin, right? You can have an unlimited amount of block space out there 2565 02:56:02,704 --> 02:56:06,644 But you know, you can have 10 million copies of the mona lisa, but they're not mona lisa 2566 02:56:07,204 --> 02:56:13,204 It's it's the same story all over again, right? Yeah, the prominence and luxury cases is there it's only about 2567 02:56:14,224 --> 02:56:16,485 decentralized permissionless storage that 2568 02:56:17,125 --> 02:56:18,885 people will claim 2569 02:56:18,885 --> 02:56:24,164 And my claim is actually weaker than it may appear because i'm not claiming that the market for luxury 2570 02:56:24,164 --> 02:56:28,164 Ordinals will be trillions of dollars. All i'm claiming is that it will be large enough 2571 02:56:28,885 --> 02:56:34,164 To raise the fees to 10 20 for financial transactions and keep them there forever 2572 02:56:34,885 --> 02:56:37,284 So essentially it's large enough to to cause a 2573 02:56:37,584 --> 02:56:43,765 Fipocalypse of the plebs and the uprising to scale bitcoin. That's that my only claim is that i'm not claiming that 2574 02:56:44,164 --> 02:56:46,644 The market will be the largest market in the world 2575 02:56:47,284 --> 02:56:48,245 so 2576 02:56:48,245 --> 02:56:51,445 I think it's a very strong claim. Yeah, I would agree you think there's going to be 2577 02:56:52,565 --> 02:56:54,565 three to four hundred thousand 2578 02:56:55,365 --> 02:56:57,365 Of those created every year 2579 02:56:58,005 --> 02:56:59,185 on 2580 02:56:59,185 --> 02:57:01,185 24-7 365 2581 02:57:02,144 --> 02:57:09,104 Well, you didn't watch that right you saw sats the brc 20s where it just didn't stop and they minted 21 quadrillion 2582 02:57:09,665 --> 02:57:11,665 Sat well, there's 38 million 2583 02:57:12,045 --> 02:57:15,985 Inscriptions already right since january. All right, and just remember 2584 02:57:16,865 --> 02:57:20,385 Once once you once you overflow 100 gigabytes per year 2585 02:57:21,025 --> 02:57:23,025 The fee response is non-linear 2586 02:57:23,505 --> 02:57:28,944 Like in other words the fees will spike exponentially once the demand exceeds 100 gigabytes per year 2587 02:57:29,344 --> 02:57:34,145 That's the block space available I can tell you that somebody will want to put a movie in there 2588 02:57:34,785 --> 02:57:36,545 at five gigabytes 2589 02:57:36,545 --> 02:57:40,485 It's not that expensive today and given recursive recursion 2590 02:57:41,025 --> 02:57:43,025 You can you know assemble it from parts 2591 02:57:43,665 --> 02:57:48,944 So why not back up valuable hollywood movies in there or corporate documents or whales? 2592 02:57:49,184 --> 02:57:53,184 Why not use like on our dogecoin where you have the space and it costs you? 2593 02:57:53,905 --> 02:57:59,985 A fraction of that if you're looking for eternal storage because of the same reason because of the same reason that people don't use 2594 02:58:00,385 --> 02:58:04,944 You know people if the only place where eternity can be found is bitcoin. It's not in 2595 02:58:05,745 --> 02:58:07,745 bitcoin 2596 02:58:09,584 --> 02:58:12,304 We hope uh, but I think to alex's point 2597 02:58:13,184 --> 02:58:15,344 as he says if it switches 2598 02:58:16,145 --> 02:58:17,025 if 2599 02:58:17,025 --> 02:58:20,224 the dynamics could switch to something that looks a little bit more like 2600 02:58:21,025 --> 02:58:23,824 Instead of what it looks like now when the blocks are near empty 2601 02:58:25,025 --> 02:58:26,625 and we pay 2602 02:58:26,625 --> 02:58:27,985 Whatever it is 2603 02:58:27,985 --> 02:58:31,665 You know a 20 cents per bitcoin transaction for 220 bytes 2604 02:58:32,545 --> 02:58:34,224 um 2605 02:58:34,224 --> 02:58:37,665 They could switch to something like what is the average income of 2606 02:58:38,464 --> 02:58:40,464 an upper middle class 2607 02:58:41,184 --> 02:58:43,184 resident of the united states like 2608 02:58:43,745 --> 02:58:46,145 percentage of that because if it switches to some kind of 2609 02:58:47,324 --> 02:58:49,324 signaling or attention-based 2610 02:58:50,304 --> 02:58:51,584 economy 2611 02:58:51,584 --> 02:58:53,584 Thing where people are just bidding against themselves 2612 02:58:55,424 --> 02:58:59,025 It could plausibly, you know take on a completely different form 2613 02:59:00,224 --> 02:59:01,344 and 2614 02:59:01,344 --> 02:59:02,464 You know 2615 02:59:02,464 --> 02:59:04,485 So they could be the feepocalypse 2616 02:59:05,985 --> 02:59:11,745 For example right now there is no tool out there that will allow you to upload the file system into inscriptions 2617 02:59:11,905 --> 02:59:17,824 Even though the protocol supports it as far as I know. No indexer has a button that says pick a folder 2618 02:59:18,464 --> 02:59:20,964 And hierarchically upload all of its contents 2619 02:59:21,985 --> 02:59:24,145 But the protocol already supports that right? 2620 02:59:24,704 --> 02:59:30,165 So it's just a question of some ui is popping up and people are like, oh, wait a second. It will cost me 500 2621 02:59:31,344 --> 02:59:37,745 To put my will and all the related, you know addendums and all the corporate documentation. That's super valuable 2622 02:59:38,765 --> 02:59:39,905 encrypted 2623 02:59:39,905 --> 02:59:46,145 As a as a kind of a giant zip archive or a bunch of folders and then I can hand the keys 2624 02:59:46,704 --> 02:59:49,745 That are backed up on on steel or paper to my heirs 2625 02:59:50,464 --> 02:59:55,424 And then I can decrypt this data. There's just no tool to do that. But the protocol supports it, right? You can see 2626 02:59:55,985 --> 02:59:56,865 that 2627 02:59:56,865 --> 03:00:03,525 You know all the all the wealthy individuals in the world are competing for 100 gigabytes per year worth of this block space, right? 2628 03:00:04,226 --> 03:00:06,226 You can see how high the fees can go, right 2629 03:00:09,826 --> 03:00:15,746 Yeah, encrypted backups will be one thing that bitcoiners might actually consider doing 2630 03:00:18,306 --> 03:00:19,266 I mean 2631 03:00:19,266 --> 03:00:25,346 I would want to put my encrypted will in there and then take the decryption keys on steel and hand it 2632 03:00:25,906 --> 03:00:30,386 To my you know attorney or to my heirs. I guess i'd have to understand why you think that 2633 03:00:31,746 --> 03:00:33,506 people would pay 2634 03:00:33,506 --> 03:00:36,466 a premium when they're able to get the same function for 2635 03:00:37,905 --> 03:00:40,706 A thousand it's not the same function. It's absolutely because there's 2636 03:00:42,146 --> 03:00:44,146 Because if you're saying there's going to be 2637 03:00:45,026 --> 03:00:50,785 What you're saying is there's ample we'll see whoever story alex's poor gentleman has a litecoin right in his name 2638 03:00:54,785 --> 03:00:56,785 But alex you do think that 2639 03:00:57,905 --> 03:01:02,785 We agree alex that bitcoin is sort of an immortality thing, but do you if you actually head to beth? 2640 03:01:03,506 --> 03:01:05,905 Like we time travel 10 years into the future 2641 03:01:06,546 --> 03:01:08,545 Do you think litecoin is like just like? 2642 03:01:09,166 --> 03:01:11,166 completely no 2643 03:01:11,746 --> 03:01:17,666 Because all old chains don't go away. They just become zombified, right? Like I mean, well, that's sort of what he's saying 2644 03:01:18,306 --> 03:01:22,945 But i'll let him make his point is there will be sufficient demand for forever storage 2645 03:01:23,505 --> 03:01:27,986 And if you have the ability to but only but only at that one Schelling point, right? 2646 03:01:27,986 --> 03:01:29,986 There has to be like for example 2647 03:01:30,066 --> 03:01:33,666 There's plenty of places in new york city where you can tell people to meet 2648 03:01:34,225 --> 03:01:40,225 But there's only one place they can figure out to meet with each other without coordinating. That's the grand central station, right? 2649 03:01:40,225 --> 03:01:42,225 So bitcoin is a Schelling point 2650 03:01:42,865 --> 03:01:50,246 For immortality, right? Like the fact that you could meet in new york, you know at the statue of liberty for example, or other well-known landmarks 2651 03:01:51,106 --> 03:01:53,106 Actually, this experiment has been conducted, right? 2652 03:01:53,346 --> 03:01:56,005 You know give give a hundred students an assignment 2653 03:01:56,545 --> 03:02:00,466 To meet each other without ever coordinating a single message in new york city 2654 03:02:00,865 --> 03:02:04,066 And 50 of them or more will show up at the clock. Of course 2655 03:02:04,066 --> 03:02:10,306 It was tom shelling himself who did the experiment and in the actual data is in his book the strategy of conflict 2656 03:02:10,386 --> 03:02:12,866 Which is one of my favorite bitcoin is such a shell 2657 03:02:13,745 --> 03:02:15,346 It's not litecoin 2658 03:02:15,346 --> 03:02:22,086 It's it's it's not litecoin. I mean litecoin will not be gone. I'm not claiming that litecoin data will be inaccessible 2659 03:02:22,566 --> 03:02:24,806 I'm, just it's just obscure. It's just like 2660 03:02:25,206 --> 03:02:29,525 But don't what do you think you're going to be you're going to see a front like a business is going to come to you 2661 03:02:29,685 --> 03:02:32,806 And say hey, i'm I have a way I can store your data 2662 03:02:33,525 --> 03:02:37,366 Forever will help you encrypt the keys blah blah. You're not even as a customer 2663 03:02:37,366 --> 03:02:39,286 You're not going to know what you're getting put up, you know 2664 03:02:39,286 --> 03:02:41,926 You're not going to know is it on bitcoin or is it on litecoin? 2665 03:02:41,926 --> 03:02:44,965 You're just going to pay a fee and someone's going to handle it for you, right? 2666 03:02:45,765 --> 03:02:48,486 You know a lot of things because I mean you see, you know 2667 03:02:48,885 --> 03:02:54,586 No, no because this is valuable data you people burning their nfts that they paid up, you know 10 000 for an ethereum 2668 03:02:55,125 --> 03:02:57,685 To teleport them to inscriptions, right? 2669 03:02:58,486 --> 03:03:03,446 People are burning their ethereum nfts today to teleport them. You're talking about people in the crypto 2670 03:03:04,486 --> 03:03:06,486 You just told me there's like 2671 03:03:08,806 --> 03:03:10,646 This is the whale sphere 2672 03:03:10,646 --> 03:03:15,125 This is not even a this is a whale sphere, right? This is a whale crypto sphere 2673 03:03:15,846 --> 03:03:21,765 Like what i'm saying is that 1 000 crypto whales is enough to get the great perma high fees 2674 03:03:22,245 --> 03:03:24,965 It's the one percent of the one percent like you don't even need 2675 03:03:25,846 --> 03:03:29,366 The crypto people or regular normies doing this 2676 03:03:30,006 --> 03:03:31,286 You just need 2677 03:03:31,286 --> 03:03:36,745 Like michael saylor said that he would like to store valuable corporate documents in inscriptions 2678 03:03:37,446 --> 03:03:40,726 I mean he realizes the use case. He hasn't done it yet, but 2679 03:03:41,366 --> 03:03:44,965 Wait till he comes out a few months from now and says oh we put you know 2680 03:03:45,025 --> 03:03:50,325 Encrypted versions or clear text versions of our legal, you know corporate formation documents and 2681 03:03:51,045 --> 03:03:52,325 you know our 2682 03:03:52,325 --> 03:03:57,926 Reports that we file with the government or whatever it is. That's valuable in there and people will start doing it, right? 2683 03:03:58,786 --> 03:04:00,245 corporates 2684 03:04:00,245 --> 03:04:01,366 whales 2685 03:04:01,366 --> 03:04:04,165 It's i'm talking about one person like this is a market for 2686 03:04:07,206 --> 03:04:09,765 He said there's gonna be how many billions of transactions backed up 2687 03:04:11,045 --> 03:04:16,325 I'm saying i'm saying that there's only 100 gigabytes worth of block space per year, right? 2688 03:04:16,486 --> 03:04:22,005 And you can you can have a thousand transactions occupying it or you can have 10 million transactions occupying it 2689 03:04:22,565 --> 03:04:24,565 But this this is like a hard 2690 03:04:25,426 --> 03:04:28,806 Unbreachable limit that once you fill up 100 gigabytes per year 2691 03:04:29,526 --> 03:04:33,445 this is exactly for the same reason that bitcoin itself is valuable because it's like 2692 03:04:34,385 --> 03:04:37,466 escalating adoption meets immovable scarcity 2693 03:04:38,165 --> 03:04:40,165 this is escalating adoption that 2694 03:04:40,725 --> 03:04:43,126 will also meet immovable scarcity and that's the 2695 03:04:43,765 --> 03:04:46,246 What's the tipping point in your opinion of where? 2696 03:04:47,045 --> 03:04:49,045 uh, the cost gets to be 2697 03:04:50,646 --> 03:04:53,605 So great that people go, okay, is there any other option? 2698 03:04:55,285 --> 03:04:56,005 Oh 2699 03:04:56,005 --> 03:05:03,225 It we already saw this process before this this exact what what we're theorizing has happened in a large ecosystem called ethereum 2700 03:05:03,686 --> 03:05:06,086 And the tipping point was that for six months 2701 03:05:06,565 --> 03:05:08,486 Ethereum blocks were full 2702 03:05:08,486 --> 03:05:11,366 And people would have to pay 10 or 20 dollars per transfer 2703 03:05:12,165 --> 03:05:18,565 Just to move ether around or your c20s. And then what happened was that the prices did not fall to zero but L2s appeared 2704 03:05:19,445 --> 03:05:22,005 And once L2s appeared that put a ceiling 2705 03:05:22,806 --> 03:05:23,445 on 2706 03:05:23,445 --> 03:05:27,045 Cost on L1, but the cost never goes down. It's like 2707 03:05:27,605 --> 03:05:31,285 This restaurant is no good because it's always crowded kind of effect, right? 2708 03:05:31,765 --> 03:05:35,285 So the same dynamics will play out like once you have ten dollars 2709 03:05:35,845 --> 03:05:39,445 Per transaction fees or twenty dollars per transaction fees that don't go down 2710 03:05:40,325 --> 03:05:46,165 This is what I call the fipocalypse and then we'll be scaled bitcoin now uprising and then L2s will appear but L2s 2711 03:05:46,325 --> 03:05:52,565 Might be arc it might be covenants, but L2s will not give you the same functionality as L1 in regards to ordinals, right? 2712 03:05:52,885 --> 03:05:56,646 Correct, but but but for most for but it will be better 2713 03:05:56,806 --> 03:06:01,366 You know, if we had validity roll-ups, you would have the same security guarantees for your actual bitcoin 2714 03:06:02,086 --> 03:06:05,866 So global south plebs could store their savings on a validity roll-up 2715 03:06:06,406 --> 03:06:11,605 with the same exact security guarantee that that l1s but they would pay one one penny or 2716 03:06:12,165 --> 03:06:16,806 Five cents to move the savings over there and once in their lifetime, they would move it 2717 03:06:17,366 --> 03:06:18,966 back to L1 2718 03:06:18,966 --> 03:06:26,725 Yeah, this is the weird realization that the transactional logs don't actually need to be kept forever. They don't need to have the same 2719 03:06:27,045 --> 03:06:28,165 Uh 2720 03:06:28,165 --> 03:06:31,686 Finality as some alternate use cases. It's very very weird, but 2721 03:06:32,325 --> 03:06:36,265 Uh, basically what people want is that the ledger to be immutable 2722 03:06:36,966 --> 03:06:43,866 But spent UTXOs are not really a big concern for anyone that uses bitcoin as money 2723 03:06:52,086 --> 03:06:56,325 All right, well I guess what i'm getting is, you know, maybe i'm a light corner, right but 2724 03:06:56,725 --> 03:06:58,725 You're saying is once ordinal fees 2725 03:06:59,366 --> 03:07:01,526 Get to be ten to twenty dollars on bitcoin 2726 03:07:02,486 --> 03:07:03,445 excess 2727 03:07:03,445 --> 03:07:09,045 uh demand spills over to another chain that is capable of providing the same level of 2728 03:07:09,825 --> 03:07:15,285 Security the same functionality until their fees get to be ten or twenty dollars and then on to a third 2729 03:07:15,526 --> 03:07:17,366 well, not the same but 2730 03:07:17,366 --> 03:07:21,285 Like if you want the same security, you need validity roll-ups essentially 2731 03:07:22,165 --> 03:07:27,126 But you can scale computation on a validity roll-up, but you cannot scale data, right? 2732 03:07:30,885 --> 03:07:32,325 Right 2733 03:07:32,325 --> 03:07:34,325 So it will be imagine 2734 03:07:34,325 --> 03:07:40,246 Like the visualization I have in mind is this multi-level water fountain where the highest level is like L1 2735 03:07:40,325 --> 03:07:44,325 Once that bucket is full then it starts overflowing to the next level 2736 03:07:45,126 --> 03:07:46,806 And that's exactly what we saw in ethereum 2737 03:07:46,966 --> 03:07:48,005 For example 2738 03:07:48,005 --> 03:07:52,406 All the ethereum L2s right now are executing six acts of transactions of ethereum itself 2739 03:07:52,486 --> 03:07:55,526 So there's like six scaling of ethereum on its own L2s 2740 03:07:55,526 --> 03:08:01,605 but they're launching an L2 right now called layer n which promises a million transactions per second and 2741 03:08:02,086 --> 03:08:04,086 500 millisecond finality 2742 03:08:04,325 --> 03:08:07,285 Without losing security guarantees of ethereum, for example 2743 03:08:08,005 --> 03:08:12,586 So there will be like this infinite amount of block space on L2s and l3s 2744 03:08:13,605 --> 03:08:16,086 But this highly desirable weblin good 2745 03:08:17,126 --> 03:08:18,086 block space 2746 03:08:18,086 --> 03:08:24,486 so, I mean central banks or you know, i'm assuming i'm also assuming institutional institute full institutionalization like 2747 03:08:24,966 --> 03:08:28,966 i'm assuming that it will not be controversial five ten years from now for 2748 03:08:29,505 --> 03:08:34,406 Eurodollar banks to hold bitcoin on their balance sheet, right and when they settle with each other once a day 2749 03:08:34,966 --> 03:08:40,085 They don't mind paying a thousand dollar per transaction fee because they're settling a billion dollars worth of bitcoin 2750 03:08:40,806 --> 03:08:44,165 so whales institutions and luxury ordinals, that's 2751 03:08:44,806 --> 03:08:50,405 That's the only things that can fit into this hundred gigabytes per year everything else has to overflow into this other buckets 2752 03:08:50,566 --> 03:08:53,285 If the roll-ups are just as good why why bother? 2753 03:08:54,006 --> 03:08:57,446 Why pay the fee if this roll-up is just as secure? 2754 03:08:59,845 --> 03:09:01,845 Because roll-ups can 2755 03:09:03,446 --> 03:09:05,446 Roll-ups have 2756 03:09:05,826 --> 03:09:08,806 immutability and double spend guarantees of the L1 2757 03:09:09,766 --> 03:09:11,205 but 2758 03:09:11,205 --> 03:09:14,165 Roll-ups are just like a different neighborhood, right? 2759 03:09:15,366 --> 03:09:19,926 I mean you can say that there's some neighborhoods in texas have no crime and you know, they have low taxes 2760 03:09:19,926 --> 03:09:24,165 But for some reason people want to live in hamptons not not in the middle of plano, texas 2761 03:09:26,645 --> 03:09:30,585 Yeah, this is just a commodity this is just block space right it's just transactions 2762 03:09:31,126 --> 03:09:33,366 It's just people want to be where other people are right? 2763 03:09:33,446 --> 03:09:39,205 Like if i'm if i'm leaving something to my heirs or corporate like if if all corporations and wealthy individuals use 2764 03:09:39,686 --> 03:09:42,645 Bitcoin for this kind of valuable document backup 2765 03:09:43,525 --> 03:09:45,285 then there is like 2766 03:09:45,285 --> 03:09:50,405 It becomes sort of like a country club. You want to use what other people of your and there's like 100 2767 03:09:51,285 --> 03:09:55,525 There's like millions of insurance companies. There's i'm in a town with eight country clubs 2768 03:09:56,486 --> 03:10:01,926 And i'm living a small rust city. I mean, it's not people are diverse and what they're looking for 2769 03:10:02,326 --> 03:10:06,025 And what why do you pay a thousand to ten thousand neighborhoods? 2770 03:10:07,045 --> 03:10:08,326 What's that? 2771 03:10:08,326 --> 03:10:14,566 Well, because it's not it's not it's not just about data backup. Like what about putting, you know deeds on a blockchain, right? 2772 03:10:14,886 --> 03:10:16,566 You know, yeah 2773 03:10:16,566 --> 03:10:21,605 You know chains of ownership and I I agree with you there can be demand for this long term 2774 03:10:22,326 --> 03:10:24,486 Uh forever what i'll call forever chains 2775 03:10:25,045 --> 03:10:26,806 and you may not think 2776 03:10:26,806 --> 03:10:28,806 script mining with 2777 03:10:28,806 --> 03:10:32,326 frankly script mining with dogecoin having unending block rewards is 2778 03:10:33,446 --> 03:10:36,806 Maybe more suitable because it has that tail emission 2779 03:10:37,285 --> 03:10:40,806 Or something like monero that has a forever tail emission may have some more 2780 03:10:41,686 --> 03:10:43,686 reality of being 2781 03:10:43,746 --> 03:10:48,165 Sustainable bitcoin has a tail emission in another commodity. It's called block space 2782 03:10:48,246 --> 03:10:54,326 There's a hundred gigabytes of it produced forever every year. Well, yeah, so that's the television dogecoin dogecoin has 2783 03:10:55,205 --> 03:11:01,605 10 times that right? No, but like no, I know but like so, you know bsv as well, but i'm saying like 2784 03:11:03,285 --> 03:11:04,405 Uh 2785 03:11:04,486 --> 03:11:11,205 Bitcoin is like beverly hills or you know, or bel-air and other chains are like other neighborhoods basically 2786 03:11:12,886 --> 03:11:15,205 Yeah, fair enough, I mean I I guess that's the 2787 03:11:16,326 --> 03:11:18,326 that's a lot to pin your 2788 03:11:18,405 --> 03:11:25,525 Uh pin your hopes, but the thing is again, my claim is is is weak. I'm not claiming trillion dollar size markets here 2789 03:11:25,605 --> 03:11:26,806 I'm claiming 2790 03:11:26,806 --> 03:11:33,126 Just enough fee pressure to catalyze a fee apocalypse. Yeah, I hope and that's not even much. I frankly hope there is like I think fees 2791 03:11:33,845 --> 03:11:35,366 Full blocks are 2792 03:11:35,366 --> 03:11:37,366 critical to any chain, you know 2793 03:11:38,085 --> 03:11:40,085 I certainly would love to see 2794 03:11:40,725 --> 03:11:44,806 I don't like paul's old arguments about you know fees being insufficient because 2795 03:11:45,446 --> 03:11:53,446 They all reflect pre-fee market era, which hopefully the fee market did actually begin on april 23rd a week ago. It came 2796 03:11:54,165 --> 03:11:56,165 within 20 or 30 blocks of clearing 2797 03:11:57,205 --> 03:12:01,285 But it didn't it started rising again. So I guess we still have that fee market 2798 03:12:01,525 --> 03:12:07,205 Hopeful, you know that started on april 23rd, but a week ago it looked like the blocks were going to clear again 2799 03:12:08,085 --> 03:12:10,165 But then the fee started rising again 2800 03:12:11,205 --> 03:12:17,306 Well, you know that my argument which of course may be wrong. Of course, it's very much a scientific 2801 03:12:18,405 --> 03:12:22,326 Argument, so it's very falsifiable. In fact, I literally give the 2802 03:12:23,105 --> 03:12:24,806 challenge 2803 03:12:24,806 --> 03:12:29,205 In the post the blog post I say I don't remember exactly what I said, but I said something like 2804 03:12:29,766 --> 03:12:32,725 Point to a two-month period where the bitcoin price isn't 2805 03:12:33,766 --> 03:12:36,566 rising where the fees were above two dollars and 2806 03:12:38,486 --> 03:12:42,165 And increased or something like that but um 2807 03:12:43,845 --> 03:12:49,525 The argument was based on the fact that people don't enjoy paying high fees every time it's not just like, you know 2808 03:12:49,605 --> 03:12:51,605 so you have a very 2809 03:12:52,165 --> 03:12:53,766 You have a view 2810 03:12:53,766 --> 03:12:55,926 But wealthy people enjoy paying high fees 2811 03:12:56,566 --> 03:12:59,525 That's that's the dublin. Yeah, you have a different this is your thing 2812 03:12:59,605 --> 03:13:04,566 so so but this is what i'm saying is if that's what i'm saying before is if you're right, then the fees will rise to like 2813 03:13:05,366 --> 03:13:07,126 some percentage of the 2814 03:13:07,126 --> 03:13:09,126 the average wealthy person's 2815 03:13:09,366 --> 03:13:12,486 Annual income or something. Don't you think you're also basing? No, I think 2816 03:13:13,766 --> 03:13:15,766 Wealth is based in a system that 2817 03:13:16,326 --> 03:13:22,085 Has people that where the wealth distribution is so bizarre in a fiat system 2818 03:13:22,965 --> 03:13:24,886 like that it's not gonna 2819 03:13:24,886 --> 03:13:26,886 exist in a bitcoin system 2820 03:13:28,006 --> 03:13:30,006 Just random 2821 03:13:30,165 --> 03:13:35,366 Everyone I just gotta tell you I could be worse because there's a the only book that you ever need to read 2822 03:13:36,486 --> 03:13:38,006 about 2823 03:13:38,006 --> 03:13:39,845 I mean i'm joking, of course 2824 03:13:39,845 --> 03:13:41,446 Read all the books you want 2825 03:13:41,446 --> 03:13:47,126 Every book you can get your hands on but the only one on equal inequality that's any good is called the great leveler 2826 03:13:48,326 --> 03:13:51,306 And I don't know if anyone here has read it, but it's fantastic 2827 03:13:52,486 --> 03:13:54,486 but the summary is 2828 03:13:54,645 --> 03:13:56,645 there are 2829 03:13:57,205 --> 03:14:04,006 If left left to left to ourselves inequality increases geometrically that's the norm but every now and then 2830 03:14:05,605 --> 03:14:09,626 Something really horrible happens like famine war catastrophe disease 2831 03:14:11,045 --> 03:14:15,126 And then it knocks everyone back down to the same spot and zero 2832 03:14:16,006 --> 03:14:21,525 And then it starts to become unequal all over again, but I highly recommend this book 2833 03:14:24,886 --> 03:14:26,006 I 2834 03:14:26,006 --> 03:14:31,845 Guys had his hand. I mean everything we're speculating about so has already happened, you know, so go ahead 2835 03:14:33,285 --> 03:14:36,426 So people could send them mad max basically 2836 03:14:39,045 --> 03:14:41,045 And then mad max you said 2837 03:14:41,926 --> 03:14:43,205 Yeah 2838 03:14:43,205 --> 03:14:45,845 Well, why it's not mad max. I think it's a huge 2839 03:14:48,006 --> 03:14:49,605 Yeah, it's not 2840 03:14:49,605 --> 03:14:51,285 i'm saying 2841 03:14:51,285 --> 03:14:53,785 That is the only thing that has ever caused equality 2842 03:14:54,486 --> 03:14:57,605 But that it won't necessarily happen. In fact quite the reverse if 2843 03:14:58,246 --> 03:15:00,806 bitcoin protects us from some kind of apocalypse then 2844 03:15:01,605 --> 03:15:03,605 normal apocalypse not fee apocalypse 2845 03:15:04,326 --> 03:15:06,085 Not to be confused 2846 03:15:06,085 --> 03:15:09,366 And if it protects us from that then it will just increase the geometric growth 2847 03:15:09,845 --> 03:15:12,165 I think the wealth inequality was kind of a tangent 2848 03:15:12,246 --> 03:15:17,205 Anyway, it was just saying what alex is saying is there's only 100 gigabytes of space 2849 03:15:17,525 --> 03:15:21,126 The population is huge. It has a certain number of like rich people 2850 03:15:21,766 --> 03:15:23,366 Something like that 2851 03:15:23,366 --> 03:15:24,405 Yeah 2852 03:15:24,405 --> 03:15:30,085 and also, I mean once once once we've hit the like right now, we're at equilibrium because 2853 03:15:30,645 --> 03:15:35,686 The the mempool is not clearing. So there's actually a valid price in the market for block space 2854 03:15:36,165 --> 03:15:40,405 Now imagine that this valid what happens to this valid price once 2855 03:15:41,025 --> 03:15:45,845 Gradually adoption escalates by 2x every year or a year and a half in bitcoin world 2856 03:15:46,405 --> 03:15:50,085 Simply due to gradual inertia of escalating adoption, right? 2857 03:15:50,326 --> 03:15:56,326 The price doesn't go up 2x might go up 8x or 16x, right? That's a non-linear response 2858 03:15:57,446 --> 03:16:02,725 Same same as scarcity of bitcoin itself, right? Bitcoin itself is highly scarce 21 million units 2859 03:16:03,205 --> 03:16:06,486 Once adoption keeps doubling every year and a half or two 2860 03:16:07,126 --> 03:16:12,085 There's a non-linear response in price. It's exactly the same. By the way, if you believe this was 2861 03:16:12,725 --> 03:16:20,165 This was my expectations of the entire ordinals inscription luxury good whatever inscribing thing 2862 03:16:20,326 --> 03:16:26,886 So that was my baseline assumption. That's what I expected to happen just from people adopting bitcoin 2863 03:16:28,006 --> 03:16:31,446 That's yeah, that that would be enough to raise the fees inscriptions just brought it up 2864 03:16:31,766 --> 03:16:34,405 Two or three years and said like the fees would go to 2865 03:16:37,605 --> 03:16:41,446 Yeah, of course i'm just saying that people do seem my experience has been 2866 03:16:42,085 --> 03:16:44,085 Since you brought my article, which is fine 2867 03:16:44,566 --> 03:16:46,566 Of course, obviously it's fair game 2868 03:16:46,645 --> 03:16:48,645 But i'm just saying my experience has been 2869 03:16:49,126 --> 03:16:53,926 People don't like paying these fees. So when the fees go up people complain and then they don't just complain they stop 2870 03:16:54,545 --> 03:16:58,326 Transacting in bitcoin. Sometimes they move to an altcoin. Sometimes they try to batch 2871 03:16:58,886 --> 03:17:01,926 Sometimes they just quit altogether and they say this crypto thing is stupid 2872 03:17:02,725 --> 03:17:04,725 And but whatever it is 2873 03:17:04,886 --> 03:17:07,605 But that's the equilibrium in the multi-level fountain, right? 2874 03:17:07,605 --> 03:17:12,565 Like people will go to the next level of the fountain, but that does not empty the bucket at the top 2875 03:17:15,526 --> 03:17:21,786 The pain has to get high enough which it did in ethereum, right and ethereum transactions went to ten dollars per transfer in 2019 2876 03:17:23,046 --> 03:17:24,246 and 2877 03:17:24,246 --> 03:17:26,886 They haven't gone to zero even though there's now all this 2878 03:17:27,666 --> 03:17:29,845 plentiful L2 space that can move 2879 03:17:30,486 --> 03:17:36,886 You know thousand times more transactions for some reason ethereum block space is not back to zero 2880 03:17:37,845 --> 03:17:39,845 It's the same the same is going to happen with bitcoin 2881 03:17:40,565 --> 03:17:42,565 well, I think it's 2882 03:17:42,565 --> 03:17:47,845 I think it's a fascinating open question. I mean, I think it's totally empirical which means that I really can see it 2883 03:17:48,406 --> 03:17:50,406 I can see it going any which way 2884 03:17:51,526 --> 03:17:58,725 It's very interesting that unlike most most bitcoin stuff is very theoretical but this I don't think this is this is really something where 2885 03:18:00,646 --> 03:18:02,646 I do think like 2886 03:18:03,046 --> 03:18:07,286 Anything could happen like we could wake up tomorrow and it could just start happening 2887 03:18:07,925 --> 03:18:09,925 but 2888 03:18:10,325 --> 03:18:14,345 It has to be something that requires this the digital governance 2889 03:18:14,965 --> 03:18:20,486 Right that to happen in a decentralized space, you know, because if i'm again like you bring up the will example 2890 03:18:21,046 --> 03:18:28,085 If I can go buy three usb drives and they cost me 15 bucks and I store it and pass them around 2891 03:18:29,205 --> 03:18:34,166 What's I don't i'm not sure what i'm gaining by putting it on on a bitcoin protocol 2892 03:18:35,126 --> 03:18:39,925 Well, I think there is a big difference between like total certainty and like high confidence 2893 03:18:40,886 --> 03:18:42,406 so I think that is 2894 03:18:42,406 --> 03:18:43,366 but 2895 03:18:43,366 --> 03:18:46,486 I guess i'd have to see from your average user why they would go pay 2896 03:18:47,126 --> 03:18:54,406 What you're gaining is that the devices that read your usb drives will change the standard of the interface in 5 10 20 years 2897 03:18:54,805 --> 03:18:57,526 Just like cds or cd-roms are hard to read these days 2898 03:18:58,325 --> 03:19:03,845 Whereas the data in the bitcoin block space will always be at the Schelling point and always readable 2899 03:19:04,166 --> 03:19:06,166 But no matter what happens to hardware 2900 03:19:07,526 --> 03:19:09,685 Well, i'll just put on pieces of paper, you know what i'm saying 2901 03:19:10,725 --> 03:19:14,246 Yeah, but pieces of paper can burn a lot. I just look at 2902 03:19:16,166 --> 03:19:18,085 I mean, this is like a classic laser 2903 03:19:18,085 --> 03:19:23,685 I i'm not accusing you of being a laser eye, but i'm saying like a classic laser eye rationalization goes something like this 2904 03:19:24,006 --> 03:19:28,565 Well, if this doesn't work for you, then just use x and next year x will be you know 2905 03:19:28,646 --> 03:19:32,646 Just get some exposure through blackrock and watch the ngu, you know 2906 03:19:32,805 --> 03:19:39,526 So that I mean so like there's always these excuses for but why can't you just use, you know taproot assets or why can't you? 2907 03:19:39,605 --> 03:19:40,705 just use 2908 03:19:40,705 --> 03:19:42,705 lightning with factories 2909 03:19:42,805 --> 03:19:46,965 And all of these post-factum rationalizations don't actually apply, right? 2910 03:19:47,526 --> 03:19:52,486 Because there's one place that I know that will be uncensorable and immortal, right? That's bitcoin 2911 03:19:54,325 --> 03:19:57,126 I think the use case is there but it's maybe not as 2912 03:19:57,205 --> 03:19:59,205 As 2913 03:19:59,205 --> 03:20:05,065 Use case is proving itself. The use case is proving itself since january because you've seen 38 million of them created 2914 03:20:05,705 --> 03:20:10,265 They essentially account for 50 to 70 percent of all transactions included in blocks 2915 03:20:10,985 --> 03:20:14,905 It's like it's like in that movie about the pirates, you know, look at me. I'm the captain now 2916 03:20:14,985 --> 03:20:17,705 So like the inscriptions look at me. I'm the bitcoin now, right? 2917 03:20:18,825 --> 03:20:20,825 That's because they they comprise 2918 03:20:21,545 --> 03:20:23,385 Of all the transactions, right? 2919 03:20:23,385 --> 03:20:31,065 It's only the block space if not the coins themselves. No, no actual transaction counts not just the block space but transaction counts 2920 03:20:32,424 --> 03:20:34,424 Well, to me 2921 03:20:36,264 --> 03:20:38,665 Guys there is a solution for for that 2922 03:20:39,865 --> 03:20:42,264 The for for some things you you can 2923 03:20:42,904 --> 03:20:46,584 You need to use encryption for some things you need to use a oracle 2924 03:20:47,305 --> 03:20:49,305 Which are more public, you know 2925 03:20:49,845 --> 03:20:58,264 inscribing data and by the way, we're I mean I and uh other people are we are doing exactly what you're talking now and 2926 03:20:59,865 --> 03:21:02,264 We are working on the client and um 2927 03:21:03,224 --> 03:21:05,785 Probably if we if we manage to 2928 03:21:06,744 --> 03:21:11,704 To make it quick enough. Uh, the protocol will be also as a drivechain 2929 03:21:12,664 --> 03:21:14,664 And I want to be on a testnet 2930 03:21:14,984 --> 03:21:16,424 also 2931 03:21:16,424 --> 03:21:17,945 but uh 2932 03:21:17,945 --> 03:21:19,304 if uh 2933 03:21:19,304 --> 03:21:21,304 if drivechain 2934 03:21:22,104 --> 03:21:26,424 Will not be enabled soon. Probably we will use a 2935 03:21:26,424 --> 03:21:32,204 Um bitcoin top root and uh, but we will not uh directly on ordinals 2936 03:21:34,825 --> 03:21:37,945 One thing that we don't have is the two-way peg, right? 2937 03:21:38,024 --> 03:21:44,265 That's the missing piece because if they had two-way peg that would be game over right basically for all other L2s. Yeah 2938 03:21:44,905 --> 03:21:49,945 But you know what ordinal say I already burned ordinals. It just sent to the legacy address 2939 03:21:50,825 --> 03:21:53,465 And uh, it's destroyed. I mean you can 2940 03:21:54,104 --> 03:21:56,104 You can destroy more, you know 2941 03:21:56,265 --> 03:22:01,064 Very easily. It's like you can destroy them. But just like it's just like burning bitcoin, right? 2942 03:22:02,185 --> 03:22:07,384 uh, no, I mean you can't you can't burn impossible to burn bitcoin at the moment, I don't know if 2943 03:22:08,024 --> 03:22:10,024 something happened in the future, but 2944 03:22:10,024 --> 03:22:15,004 Like I mean burning like destroying the this the the inscription 2945 03:22:15,545 --> 03:22:17,545 not the the sat is actually 2946 03:22:18,024 --> 03:22:19,065 only a 2947 03:22:19,065 --> 03:22:21,864 You know number of sat in the in the wallet 2948 03:22:21,864 --> 03:22:23,864 Right 2949 03:22:25,705 --> 03:22:28,905 Well the owner of that capability to do it, right 2950 03:22:29,944 --> 03:22:31,944 I think he was saying that it's a user interface 2951 03:22:32,425 --> 03:22:34,425 Makes it too easy to accidentally destroy 2952 03:22:35,465 --> 03:22:38,664 Oh, okay. Yeah, I mean the wallets don't support this stuff yet 2953 03:22:39,384 --> 03:22:46,265 So but the protocol is there so this is the year 2009 or early 2010 of of inscriptions. I mean 2954 03:22:47,224 --> 03:22:49,224 this time next year there will be 2955 03:22:49,465 --> 03:22:52,744 Like I expect inscription support and trezor actually 2956 03:22:53,465 --> 03:22:59,705 Sooner or later, right? And that's sort of that's the mainstreaming of inscriptions is when trezor and other hardware wallets start supporting them 2957 03:23:04,185 --> 03:23:07,545 People love these hardware wallets. I really don't but 2958 03:23:11,065 --> 03:23:14,345 I like your offline computer as a hardware wallet idea too 2959 03:23:15,065 --> 03:23:17,065 which is fine, you know, let's 2960 03:23:17,625 --> 03:23:23,944 Get an old iphone and you know, wipe it out and and disable wi-fi in it and stuff 2961 03:23:25,625 --> 03:23:28,845 And get the faraday cage as well and that's the real expense 2962 03:23:41,065 --> 03:23:44,664 No, it's like uh, the faraday cage is not that it's a faraday because the faraday cage 2963 03:23:44,664 --> 03:23:47,304 you can't easily open the phone and and unplug the 2964 03:23:47,864 --> 03:23:50,985 Bluetooth and the wi-fi thing whereas you can with a laptop 2965 03:23:51,065 --> 03:23:54,024 It's it sounds crazy, but it's really not trust me 2966 03:23:54,024 --> 03:23:57,705 There's plenty of videos online where you can watch someone you just take a knife 2967 03:23:58,024 --> 03:24:02,504 you open the laptop up and there's a little thing that says wi-fi on a little label and you just 2968 03:24:03,065 --> 03:24:07,065 Grab it with your fingers and unplug it and then you're then you're good to go. It's not enough 2969 03:24:07,144 --> 03:24:13,864 I mean someone can actually read uh your screen and your keyboard very easily. Uh from a 2970 03:24:14,504 --> 03:24:16,504 Slight distance 2971 03:24:17,304 --> 03:24:21,864 That's why you need it's also live in the mountains. No, i'm just kidding. Yeah. Yeah 2972 03:24:23,225 --> 03:24:30,665 That the whole mountain man ideology is wacky right like sit in a bunker in the mountains. It's irrational because we have 2973 03:24:32,024 --> 03:24:35,324 We have many different risks and you have to weigh them each proportionally 2974 03:24:35,544 --> 03:24:39,304 And so the idea that they would people would care so much about this one particular risk 2975 03:24:40,185 --> 03:24:45,785 When and also for example, we have social animals with friends and family and societies, right? 2976 03:24:50,665 --> 03:24:57,465 Of course the people are rational what they would care about is activating BIP300 as quickly as possible that take that for granted obviously 2977 03:24:58,584 --> 03:25:04,024 By the way, the best way to activate BIP300 is to start uploading your file systems into inscriptions 2978 03:25:04,424 --> 03:25:05,945 There's no better 2979 03:25:05,945 --> 03:25:11,704 There's no need to lobby for it. You just need to start raising the fee level to ten dollars for a few months 2980 03:25:13,864 --> 03:25:16,185 Pleb pleb uprising will take care of the rest 2981 03:25:17,385 --> 03:25:20,185 Yeah, it will help. Yeah, I think you're probably right about that 2982 03:25:21,144 --> 03:25:24,665 That probably would help more but of course you have to remember from my point of view 2983 03:25:24,665 --> 03:25:26,744 I kind of think that they won't raise it won't go up 2984 03:25:27,385 --> 03:25:31,625 But I hope I think you're right. Didn't I agree with you when you first brought it up? I said that would be great for me 2985 03:25:32,584 --> 03:25:35,225 No, I mean it's a good outcome for all concern 2986 03:25:35,304 --> 03:25:42,105 It's just that you have this perfect substitutability idea that one block space is perfectly substitutable for another 2987 03:25:42,665 --> 03:25:46,105 And that's not true about neighborhoods like a piece of land in plano 2988 03:25:46,105 --> 03:25:49,084 Texas is not the same as piece of land in bel-air california 2989 03:25:49,785 --> 03:25:55,144 Right, so that doesn't work number one number two. The fee market only started a few months ago. So all the past 2990 03:25:55,864 --> 03:25:57,225 you know 2991 03:25:57,225 --> 03:26:02,744 Arguments about how high the fees were are just completely invalid because the fee market never existed 2992 03:26:03,625 --> 03:26:06,024 You know, why do you think that land's more valuable? 2993 03:26:07,945 --> 03:26:13,625 Because other valuable people and their properties are there, you know, ultimately it's the it's the 2994 03:26:14,744 --> 03:26:19,225 It's the country club effect, you know birds of feather flock together. That's at the end of the day 2995 03:26:19,225 --> 03:26:24,764 That's the social desire. Where do you do you buy your car insurance from some from where rich people buy car insurance? 2996 03:26:25,644 --> 03:26:31,644 No car insurance is that factor into your that's real estate does not like car insurance is a commodity 2997 03:26:32,605 --> 03:26:34,605 Those block space 2998 03:26:34,924 --> 03:26:36,924 Well guys, do you know? 2999 03:26:38,845 --> 03:26:46,685 Guys do you know that the biggest insurance settlement company is using a blockchain for their settlement? 3000 03:26:46,685 --> 03:26:48,685 Settlement 3001 03:26:49,965 --> 03:26:51,965 Who's that ethereum, I don't know 3002 03:26:52,445 --> 03:26:59,165 Lemonade no, no subnet subnet on avalanche, which is the the the same setup as a drivechain 3003 03:27:02,125 --> 03:27:04,125 Subnet something like that 3004 03:27:05,725 --> 03:27:07,084 And uh 3005 03:27:07,084 --> 03:27:09,084 and uh, it's it's secured by 3006 03:27:09,885 --> 03:27:13,565 by validator nodes on avalanche blockchain and actually 3007 03:27:14,285 --> 03:27:16,264 the main chain is uh 3008 03:27:16,264 --> 03:27:18,505 decentralized and it's UTXO based 3009 03:27:19,304 --> 03:27:20,905 uh 3010 03:27:20,905 --> 03:27:23,544 Chain and uh, you can create a 3011 03:27:24,824 --> 03:27:28,345 Special application blockchains they call but it's like a sidechain 3012 03:27:30,744 --> 03:27:38,185 Yeah, guys we interrupt this uh feepocalypse meandering conversation because we have a new person on the stage 3013 03:27:39,544 --> 03:27:41,544 Saul is on the stage. Hello 3014 03:27:41,864 --> 03:27:43,864 I 3015 03:27:44,105 --> 03:27:46,845 Didn't mean to interrupt the flow of the uh conversation 3016 03:27:48,424 --> 03:27:50,424 How's it going paul 3017 03:27:50,584 --> 03:27:52,584 Yes, it's kind of okay 3018 03:27:53,144 --> 03:27:55,945 no, I mean I was just going to chime in a little bit with the uh, 3019 03:27:56,984 --> 03:27:59,785 the inscription thing just to remind people that uh 3020 03:28:01,225 --> 03:28:03,225 They are printable 3021 03:28:05,144 --> 03:28:06,424 Um 3022 03:28:06,424 --> 03:28:11,785 Yeah, that prunability thing is a pretty critical question alex because 3023 03:28:12,824 --> 03:28:15,225 I'm, not sure myself exactly how 3024 03:28:15,864 --> 03:28:20,905 If they can put a box around and say these things don't affect the UTXO set and these things do 3025 03:28:21,864 --> 03:28:23,864 And if they can box it out 3026 03:28:24,584 --> 03:28:26,584 then it is 3027 03:28:27,625 --> 03:28:29,625 You would still 3028 03:28:30,424 --> 03:28:32,424 Is 3029 03:28:32,665 --> 03:28:35,945 Every inscription creates an unprunable UTXO when it's 3030 03:28:36,725 --> 03:28:38,024 inscribed 3031 03:28:38,024 --> 03:28:44,184 But the witness data, which is the data is optionally prunable by nodes and it has been for years 3032 03:28:44,905 --> 03:28:49,704 While inscriptions do create new fresh UTXOs if you look at the chart of UTXO growth 3033 03:28:50,184 --> 03:28:54,665 The UTXOs from the beginning of the year double dropper from 60 million to 120 million 3034 03:28:54,745 --> 03:28:59,865 All that growth is due to brc20 and other inscriptions those UTXOs are not prunable 3035 03:29:00,584 --> 03:29:06,425 They're part of the UTXO unspent transaction output set today, but their witness data 3036 03:29:07,624 --> 03:29:09,624 May be prunable 3037 03:29:11,545 --> 03:29:13,545 Well the UTXOs 3038 03:29:14,345 --> 03:29:20,905 in the context of forever storage of data is kind of moot don't you think I mean, it's really the 3039 03:29:21,865 --> 03:29:26,985 I mean the ordinal part the trackability part is one thing but like there's a lot of 3040 03:29:28,024 --> 03:29:30,024 data that you're referring to that 3041 03:29:31,144 --> 03:29:35,944 Does it necessarily need to be movable tradable trackable? It just needs to be there, right? So 3042 03:29:36,665 --> 03:29:39,465 So it's not really ordinals. It's just inscriptions in general 3043 03:29:40,184 --> 03:29:42,184 Yes, and that's all prunable 3044 03:29:42,184 --> 03:29:46,905 There is no new strong assumptions here because like we discussed before you came on stage 3045 03:29:47,624 --> 03:29:50,905 Bitcoin has a single honest peer assumption if you're running a node 3046 03:29:51,944 --> 03:29:56,345 One out of a hundred peers you connect to at least one has to give you the heaviest change 3047 03:29:56,745 --> 03:30:02,504 Whereas the other 99 can be controlled by the chinese communist party and you don't need to trust this honest peer 3048 03:30:02,824 --> 03:30:04,824 So the same kind of assumption 3049 03:30:05,624 --> 03:30:09,944 Occurs here as well that you need to be able to connect to one node 3050 03:30:10,425 --> 03:30:12,425 That will not prune the witness data 3051 03:30:12,745 --> 03:30:18,905 And you don't need to trust that peer because you can validate that data when you get it and then you can become the archival 3052 03:30:18,985 --> 03:30:20,985 node yourself 3053 03:30:21,624 --> 03:30:22,584 Yeah 3054 03:30:22,584 --> 03:30:28,105 But then how decentralized is it, you know, how decentralized is the actual data then if only 3055 03:30:28,824 --> 03:30:30,985 a fraction of nodes actually store 3056 03:30:32,184 --> 03:30:34,264 no, no, it's incredibly decentralized because 3057 03:30:35,944 --> 03:30:37,944 A single node on the internet 3058 03:30:38,584 --> 03:30:42,665 Is as decentralized as a thousand nodes on the internet as a million nodes 3059 03:30:43,465 --> 03:30:45,465 Because a single archival node 3060 03:30:46,105 --> 03:30:51,805 No, I see a single archival node, right? It's just like getting blocks from the from the blockstream satellite 3061 03:30:52,345 --> 03:30:58,665 It implies no trust the blocks between because blockstream blocks those blocks are self-validating data, right? 3062 03:30:59,465 --> 03:31:01,624 So a single supplier of that data 3063 03:31:02,824 --> 03:31:04,584 is enough 3064 03:31:04,584 --> 03:31:06,584 What I wanted to say is that 3065 03:31:06,824 --> 03:31:11,624 Under the default configuration with asunvalid you actually don't need to download 3066 03:31:12,584 --> 03:31:17,704 The SegWit extension data and I think someone maybe already made a change in 3067 03:31:18,345 --> 03:31:24,504 In core or they are planning a change where nodes will not even ask for it when they sync up because it's basically 3068 03:31:25,305 --> 03:31:26,485 completely 3069 03:31:26,485 --> 03:31:29,384 Irrelevant data if they don't want to validate it 3070 03:31:31,064 --> 03:31:33,064 Yeah, and in the future the snapshot 3071 03:31:34,745 --> 03:31:39,704 It's okay for vitalik to be running a node that that does give you the SegWit data 3072 03:31:40,425 --> 03:31:46,024 Because even even vitalik or the pope or the chinese communist party as long as there's one node 3073 03:31:46,504 --> 03:31:52,584 That's giving you this data. You can clone that node and become an archival node yourself without any trust 3074 03:31:53,545 --> 03:31:59,785 Yeah, i'm just saying bitcoin network could become a network in response to this sorting that that simply 3075 03:32:00,405 --> 03:32:03,064 Explicitly does not care about old witness data 3076 03:32:03,624 --> 03:32:07,704 And the nodes don't keep it and don't propagate it and in that case 3077 03:32:07,944 --> 03:32:11,384 It is going to be pretty hard in a peer-to-peer network 3078 03:32:11,465 --> 03:32:14,264 If the nodes don't propagate the old SegWit data 3079 03:32:14,504 --> 03:32:19,704 You're going to have a hard time to find that one archival node and that one archival node 3080 03:32:20,504 --> 03:32:22,504 is not going to be as 3081 03:32:22,884 --> 03:32:24,884 permissionless and as 3082 03:32:25,524 --> 03:32:31,124 Peer-to-peer experience because they they can basically close shop anytime they can 3083 03:32:31,524 --> 03:32:37,684 Charge you for that data or whatever. That's entirely not the same as right now is with bitcoin 3084 03:32:38,884 --> 03:32:43,124 Actually, it's very similar to to the day most nodes pruning their old blocks 3085 03:32:43,684 --> 03:32:46,805 And yet somehow you're able to sync from block zero, right? 3086 03:32:47,524 --> 03:32:53,365 What percentage of of bitcoin nodes do not prune their blocks today? Probably a small percentage because 3087 03:32:53,925 --> 03:32:56,725 When you install bitcoin core, right it has like 3088 03:32:57,444 --> 03:33:03,524 Keep last couple of hundred blocks, but prune all the others. I think it's been that way by default for a long time 3089 03:33:04,405 --> 03:33:06,644 and nobody can charge you for this data because 3090 03:33:07,845 --> 03:33:09,845 If if one copy of it gets out 3091 03:33:10,245 --> 03:33:14,324 You don't need to trust the seller and you can just start selling and undercutting them, right? 3092 03:33:14,725 --> 03:33:19,045 Paul will will understand that that the marginal cost of that data is zero because 3093 03:33:19,684 --> 03:33:23,925 It's self-certifying data and a single archival node will clone 100 more 3094 03:33:24,485 --> 03:33:28,004 Within a day. So there's there's nothing you can charge for this data 3095 03:33:28,485 --> 03:33:32,644 And this is not about data availability. This is about data persistence for the long run 3096 03:33:33,204 --> 03:33:35,204 Like why do you say it's not a data availability? 3097 03:33:35,925 --> 03:33:38,805 Because isn't it sort of about data ability, isn't it? 3098 03:33:39,204 --> 03:33:44,965 Why do you say no because data availability is a technical term that refers to proof of publication 3099 03:33:45,045 --> 03:33:48,805 It does not refer to eternal storage. There's like a different term for that 3100 03:33:49,684 --> 03:33:54,084 Data, well, I think proof of publication basically everyone needs 3101 03:33:54,725 --> 03:34:00,564 To sync the blockchain. They need to download all the block data at some point when they you know 3102 03:34:00,644 --> 03:34:04,245 I'm talking normally maybe people invent shortcuts or whatever 3103 03:34:04,485 --> 03:34:08,884 But the only way to know if the shortcuts like zero sync or whatever if the only way to know that those are working 3104 03:34:09,925 --> 03:34:11,925 Yeah is and someone will always 3105 03:34:12,485 --> 03:34:15,444 We can't have any part of the blockchain go missing 3106 03:34:16,165 --> 03:34:18,165 Or I think the entire project 3107 03:34:19,045 --> 03:34:22,245 We are in that regime. We have been in that regime for years 3108 03:34:22,884 --> 03:34:25,845 The that's kind of sounds like bad news, but the good news 3109 03:34:26,405 --> 03:34:29,764 Is a single node that's actually serving you the blocks 3110 03:34:30,324 --> 03:34:34,004 Can can be sufficient to receive the network without any trust 3111 03:34:34,564 --> 03:34:38,805 A hundred fold when I agree with that, of course, of course, I completely agree with that 3112 03:34:40,485 --> 03:34:42,485 Um, which is 3113 03:34:42,564 --> 03:34:44,564 This is 3114 03:34:44,564 --> 03:34:51,124 This assumption is not stronger than the underlying assumption that some peer will actually give you the heaviest chain 3115 03:34:52,004 --> 03:34:54,004 right that 3116 03:34:54,805 --> 03:34:59,045 Though I I was kind of worried that maybe one day they would not or something I don't know but uh, 3117 03:34:59,285 --> 03:35:06,884 Alex, I agree with you, but I don't think I don't think people would have the same desire to inscribe 3118 03:35:08,405 --> 03:35:12,004 Data on the blockchain if it was a few nodes 3119 03:35:12,485 --> 03:35:17,925 And most of them were not even responsive or very weight limited for old witness data 3120 03:35:18,245 --> 03:35:24,884 So if you had a situation like that compared to what is today, I don't think that would be the same among the same 3121 03:35:25,504 --> 03:35:27,345 enthusiasm for uh 3122 03:35:27,345 --> 03:35:31,444 Inscriptions, so i'm not sure about that whole thing. But but what you are saying 3123 03:35:32,245 --> 03:35:37,365 Does that something is that there is a lot of enthusiasm for running conventional bitcoin nodes today, right? 3124 03:35:37,764 --> 03:35:42,564 There's allegedly like 15 000 reachable ones and maybe a hundred thousand all together 3125 03:35:43,204 --> 03:35:51,365 And people do not seem to be worried that 99% of their peers are pruning blocks because it seems like every node that comes up 3126 03:35:51,845 --> 03:35:54,004 Is able to sync from block zero today 3127 03:35:54,405 --> 03:36:00,985 Like there's been no no no reported failures of oh my god. The certain section of blocks are just inaccessible 3128 03:36:02,004 --> 03:36:04,004 That's I I don't think i've heard anyone 3129 03:36:04,405 --> 03:36:12,004 I I think I think a much larger much larger percent of bitcoin nodes today are full archiving nodes 3130 03:36:12,805 --> 03:36:17,925 partly from ideological reasons and partly from some default reasons from 3131 03:36:18,564 --> 03:36:20,564 for these uh, these uh 3132 03:36:21,045 --> 03:36:23,045 uh ready-made 3133 03:36:23,444 --> 03:36:24,805 uh 3134 03:36:24,805 --> 03:36:26,725 pre-packaged 3135 03:36:26,725 --> 03:36:28,644 lightning home nodes 3136 03:36:28,644 --> 03:36:32,884 That basically run with uh with full archiving mode out of books 3137 03:36:33,285 --> 03:36:38,884 so why why would you have ideological inscribers doing the same thing or libraries or 3138 03:36:39,285 --> 03:36:41,684 You know, they can or escrow companies 3139 03:36:41,764 --> 03:36:46,644 So basically the same kind, you know, you could have guerrilla artist collectives that run a node 3140 03:36:47,124 --> 03:36:50,324 You could have libraries, you know, the institutions we call libraries today 3141 03:36:50,805 --> 03:36:56,004 Simply writing archival nodes because every book worth reading has been inscribed in bitcoin 3142 03:36:56,485 --> 03:36:59,524 And they can just let you click and download that book, right 3143 03:37:01,285 --> 03:37:08,345 Like, you know people haven't thought about backing up all the books worthwhile reading, you know into into inscriptions 3144 03:37:08,884 --> 03:37:10,885 And that's what project gutenberg 3145 03:37:11,125 --> 03:37:14,324 Would only dream of when it was launched 20 30 years ago, right? 3146 03:37:14,645 --> 03:37:21,605 But now you can actually launch a real project gutenberg where you actually take a thousand books from civilization from old time 3147 03:37:22,164 --> 03:37:24,564 And you just inscribe them in various file formats 3148 03:37:25,365 --> 03:37:27,605 And that becomes like an open library for the world 3149 03:37:28,485 --> 03:37:30,084 Why not? 3150 03:37:30,084 --> 03:37:36,265 The problem is there's no incentive. The only incentive is for miners to to uh validate the transactions 3151 03:37:37,444 --> 03:37:43,765 But after the the file the data is stored, there's no further incentive to keep it there at all currently 3152 03:37:45,044 --> 03:37:48,965 But there's no incentive to keep old blocks either and yet they don't seem to disappear, right? 3153 03:37:49,444 --> 03:37:54,164 What i'm saying is the same talking dynamics if we're talking in the context of forever 3154 03:37:55,044 --> 03:38:00,164 The thing is if you're talking in the context of forever or a very long time, I mean in five years 3155 03:38:01,044 --> 03:38:02,404 10 years even 3156 03:38:02,404 --> 03:38:04,245 there could be ways 3157 03:38:04,245 --> 03:38:06,245 roll-ups and whatnot where 3158 03:38:06,465 --> 03:38:11,765 Pruning a majority if not all of the witness data would be perfectly fine 3159 03:38:12,965 --> 03:38:19,684 It would be fine, but who would care about pruning in in the next 10 years two terabytes of data will be added to the bitcoin blockchain 3160 03:38:20,485 --> 03:38:26,105 But 10 years from now two terabytes of data will be less than one percent of your, you know, $9.99 3161 03:38:27,044 --> 03:38:29,044 USB stick 3162 03:38:29,204 --> 03:38:35,865 So who cares about all these optimizations like nobody cares about a million transistors here and there these days or even a billion transistors 3163 03:38:36,324 --> 03:38:38,324 Who would care about two terabytes of data? 3164 03:38:38,885 --> 03:38:40,885 When today it's like pennies 3165 03:38:40,965 --> 03:38:41,845 so 3166 03:38:41,845 --> 03:38:46,485 So does this whole thing that we talked about for the past? I don't know how many hours 3167 03:38:47,125 --> 03:38:50,105 Does it like validate small blockerism 3168 03:38:50,965 --> 03:38:53,465 Is there a block size that is optimal? 3169 03:38:54,404 --> 03:38:56,404 from the user's perspective 3170 03:38:56,485 --> 03:39:01,605 Like if blocks are larger or smaller or the situation would be better or worse 3171 03:39:02,245 --> 03:39:08,725 In this sense. Well, I think I think it just changes the timeline like for example if the SegWit soft fork never happened 3172 03:39:09,365 --> 03:39:14,245 We would be in fipocalypse a year or two ago already because there will be no forex 3173 03:39:14,965 --> 03:39:16,645 Block size increase 3174 03:39:16,645 --> 03:39:22,885 So SegWit pushed it off a few years and now appearance of you know inscriptions has brought it forward again 3175 03:39:22,965 --> 03:39:24,965 But this is just an immovable wall 3176 03:39:25,525 --> 03:39:30,965 Being hit by this gradual sort of tidal way of escalating adoption. It's just a question of when 3177 03:39:31,605 --> 03:39:34,725 The hippocalypse happens. It's not it doesn't matter if the blocks are 3178 03:39:35,525 --> 03:39:41,365 10 percent of what they are now or 10 times what they are now. It just changes the timeline. It doesn't change the final outcome 3179 03:39:42,930 --> 03:39:52,930 Yeah, but if the burden grows large enough that actually incentivizes people to get rid of it or work around it more 3180 03:39:52,930 --> 03:40:02,930 So in that sense also the pruning network may come into existence when people realize that it is the ledger that is the most important 3181 03:40:02,930 --> 03:40:12,930 And all transaction data can be under certain circumstances safely discarded and that can become like a safe practice is what I mean 3182 03:40:12,930 --> 03:40:24,930 Because it's counterintuitive when people assumed back then that larger block size would lead to lesser replication of the Bitcoin blockchain 3183 03:40:24,930 --> 03:40:44,930 And they assume that causes like lower decentralization. I'm not sure if they consider that this actually might discourage people from using it as a graffiti wall 3184 03:40:44,930 --> 03:40:54,930 So my question is, is there an equilibrium size you think? 3185 03:40:54,930 --> 03:41:06,930 Well, it's the size that we have to live with, right? Whether it's optimal, I don't know. I mean, in my mind, any kind of block size soft fork to decrease the block size would be madness 3186 03:41:06,930 --> 03:41:14,930 And it would be opposed by, you know, because it essentially disables non-custodial lightning and ARK and everything else 3187 03:41:15,930 --> 03:41:23,930 But that's only a matter of time, you are saying. So that's only a matter of time to disable on L2 because on L3 they can exist just fine 3188 03:41:23,930 --> 03:41:30,930 Yes, but the thing is, but it's kind of like the old saying, it has to get worse before it gets better 3189 03:41:30,930 --> 03:41:40,930 So it has to go to the FIPOCALYPSE in order for the chokehold of the laser-eyed priests and podcasters who, you know, engage farm on Twitter 3190 03:41:40,930 --> 03:41:51,930 With their doomerism about never changing, you know, basically the chorus that's chanting ossify, ossify, that has to be essentially exposed for just what they are, which is just a cult 3191 03:41:51,930 --> 03:41:59,930 And the plebs should lose confidence in them first, and then, you know, confidence and real L2s will be possible, I think 3192 03:41:59,930 --> 03:42:08,930 Because after the pleb uprising, nothing that stands in the way of scaling Bitcoin can survive, I think 3193 03:42:08,930 --> 03:42:15,930 Because, I mean, Bitcoin loses all rationale and purpose if it becomes a plaything of whales and black rock, right? 3194 03:42:16,930 --> 03:42:26,930 And don't you find it plausible that the pleb uprising would cause such a chaos that it's already very hard to get consensus on anything 3195 03:42:26,930 --> 03:42:36,930 Or for people to get a good understanding, or most Bitcoiners won't get a good understanding on any of the proposed changes today 3196 03:42:36,930 --> 03:42:44,930 And in the chaos, don't you find it plausible that this actually gets worse? 3197 03:42:44,930 --> 03:42:51,930 No, I think ossification is the de facto status quo now, a premature ossification, right? 3198 03:42:51,930 --> 03:42:54,930 But the uprising is all about overturning the status quo 3199 03:42:54,930 --> 03:42:58,930 It's about, we need Covenant soft fork to scale L2s 3200 03:42:58,930 --> 03:43:02,930 We need drivechain soft fork to allow drivechains 3201 03:43:02,930 --> 03:43:08,930 We need a WASM opcode to verify proofs, right? 3202 03:43:08,930 --> 03:43:13,930 To enable ZK rollups with WASM, for example 3203 03:43:13,930 --> 03:43:15,930 There is something I want to mention 3204 03:43:15,930 --> 03:43:18,930 I mean, I completely agree with basically what you're saying 3205 03:43:18,930 --> 03:43:23,930 But I just thought I'd bring this up, which is, you know, people like Roger Ver, for example 3206 03:43:23,930 --> 03:43:27,930 He has been waiting and hoping for fees to rise in L1 3207 03:43:28,930 --> 03:43:32,930 I think maybe I brought this up months ago, when you first started to talk about Feebuckle 3208 03:43:32,930 --> 03:43:36,930 He's been waiting, I assume 3209 03:43:36,930 --> 03:43:41,930 I mean, I don't know, Boris, but I'm guessing he's been sitting down 3210 03:43:41,930 --> 03:43:45,930 He has been waiting for many years because of the 4x block size increase by SegWit, right? 3211 03:43:45,930 --> 03:43:49,930 And he is thinking something like, he needs the fees to go up 3212 03:43:49,930 --> 03:43:51,930 He needs people to be unhappy with BTC 3213 03:43:51,930 --> 03:43:57,930 And then he's hoping to swoop in and that everyone will switch to Bitcoin Cash 3214 03:43:57,930 --> 03:43:59,930 You know, that sort of... 3215 03:43:59,930 --> 03:44:00,930 No, that's madness 3216 03:44:00,930 --> 03:44:09,930 People will switch to validity rollups and drivechains and ARK and, you know, better scaled Lightning 3217 03:44:09,930 --> 03:44:14,930 All those things remain within the network effect, right? 3218 03:44:14,930 --> 03:44:19,930 The moment you switch the asset, you're exiled to another planet, basically 3219 03:44:19,930 --> 03:44:21,930 Nobody wants to be exiled to another planet 3220 03:44:21,930 --> 03:44:22,930 Everybody wants to... 3221 03:44:22,930 --> 03:44:28,930 If you cannot stay in Beverly Hills, you want to stay in Brentwood or Westwood or coastal LA, right? 3222 03:44:28,930 --> 03:44:33,930 If you can't stay there, you have to be like a few hours drive away from LAX or something 3223 03:44:33,930 --> 03:44:36,930 The point is that you don't want to be exiled to another planet 3224 03:44:36,930 --> 03:44:42,930 You want to go to a rollup where you can move your Bitcoin trustlessly or drivechains, you know 3225 03:44:42,930 --> 03:44:44,930 Which is, you know, crypto-economically secure 3226 03:44:44,930 --> 03:44:47,930 Nobody wants to, like, abandon the asset 3227 03:44:47,930 --> 03:44:48,930 That's something 3228 03:44:48,930 --> 03:44:53,930 I agree, but I just thought I would toss it out there as, like... 3229 03:44:53,930 --> 03:44:56,930 I mean, it will be an uncertain time, don't you think? 3230 03:44:56,930 --> 03:45:01,930 Maybe it wouldn't be Bitcoin Cash, but maybe someone would try something 3231 03:45:01,930 --> 03:45:03,930 It's like Game of Thrones, you know 3232 03:45:03,930 --> 03:45:09,930 Chaos is a ladder, it's an opportunity for soft forks to get through 3233 03:45:09,930 --> 03:45:11,930 That's the way I see it 3234 03:45:11,930 --> 03:45:18,930 I see chaos of the pleb uprising as a way that nobody can say, well, we shouldn't change Bitcoin 3235 03:45:18,930 --> 03:45:23,930 Because by that time, the ossification course will be completely discredited, right? 3236 03:45:23,930 --> 03:45:26,930 Because they've been telling the plebs just keep stacking sats 3237 03:45:26,930 --> 03:45:28,930 But then, you know, plebs are like, wait a second 3238 03:45:28,930 --> 03:45:33,930 You want me to spend 10% of my savings to move them somewhere now? 3239 03:45:33,930 --> 03:45:34,930 Because the fees are 50 bucks 3240 03:45:34,930 --> 03:45:36,930 I'm talking about global soft plebs 3241 03:45:36,930 --> 03:45:43,930 I'm not talking about, you know, first world, you know, CryptoRati or whatever 3242 03:45:46,930 --> 03:45:48,930 It's a time of opportunity, basically 3243 03:45:48,930 --> 03:45:50,930 And the sooner it comes, the better 3244 03:45:50,930 --> 03:45:54,930 Like, for example, the guy that spoke recently, Bitcode 3245 03:45:54,930 --> 03:45:59,930 That they're doing some kind of indexer or something with inscriptions 3246 03:45:59,930 --> 03:46:03,930 You know, there's just, like, a huge amount of activity in there 3247 03:46:03,930 --> 03:46:11,930 And we're, like, weeks from somebody launching, based on the new recently committed standard for the Ordinals server 3248 03:46:11,930 --> 03:46:17,930 We're, like, weeks from launching ability to, you know, to, like, open the firehose of fee pressure 3249 03:46:17,930 --> 03:46:22,930 Like, all the collections will want to be inscribed with hierarchical Ordinals 3250 03:46:22,930 --> 03:46:28,930 You know, uncensorable, decentralized namespaces, websites, all of that is coming 3251 03:46:29,930 --> 03:46:31,930 Yeah, yeah 3252 03:46:31,930 --> 03:46:39,930 No, Alex, we are doing exactly client for inscribing, not indexer 3253 03:46:39,930 --> 03:46:41,930 Inscribing the important data 3254 03:46:41,930 --> 03:46:47,930 So, and if you allow people to inscribe, you know, first to inscribe their identity Ordinal 3255 03:46:47,930 --> 03:46:51,930 And then to inscribe a whole file system underneath 3256 03:46:51,930 --> 03:46:56,930 You know, like, my creativity Ordinal, my important document 3257 03:46:56,930 --> 03:46:59,930 Basically, just allow people to create their identity first 3258 03:46:59,930 --> 03:47:02,930 And then allow people to create a structure in there 3259 03:47:02,930 --> 03:47:05,930 And once they can own that Ordinal for the identity 3260 03:47:05,930 --> 03:47:14,930 Then they, essentially, the provenance of all the other digital artifacts is provable trustlessly back to them 3261 03:47:14,930 --> 03:47:16,930 You know, this is major, right? 3262 03:47:16,930 --> 03:47:18,930 Yeah, yeah, exactly 3263 03:47:20,930 --> 03:47:22,930 By the way, basically 3264 03:47:22,930 --> 03:47:24,930 No, sorry 3265 03:47:24,930 --> 03:47:28,930 I just wanted to ask you, Alex, basically, things that I own 3266 03:47:28,930 --> 03:47:34,930 And that whole DID thing is basically getting one appended or how they say it 3267 03:47:34,930 --> 03:47:38,930 Well, I don't know if it will take off as an identity infrastructure 3268 03:47:38,930 --> 03:47:42,930 But, for example, if I was a heavy Nostr user 3269 03:47:42,930 --> 03:47:50,930 I would want my Nostr identity and my inscription identity to be the same thing 3270 03:47:50,930 --> 03:47:51,930 You can actually do it, right? 3271 03:47:51,930 --> 03:47:59,930 You can actually have a public key that has both your Nostr identity and your inscription identity at the same time 3272 03:47:59,930 --> 03:48:03,930 And you can have both of them secured by hardware wallet 3273 03:48:03,930 --> 03:48:07,930 With, right now, it's only like one or two wallets that don't burn your Ordinals 3274 03:48:07,930 --> 03:48:09,930 Like Sparrow or whatever 3275 03:48:09,930 --> 03:48:12,930 But once there's mainstream support a year or two from now 3276 03:48:12,930 --> 03:48:16,930 You know, now you're talking about, like, here's another use case for inscriptions 3277 03:48:16,930 --> 03:48:20,930 Imagine highly secure direct messages 3278 03:48:20,930 --> 03:48:22,930 Or just, you know, uncensored 3279 03:48:22,930 --> 03:48:27,930 Think of using Bitcoin blockchain as a Nostr relay 3280 03:48:27,930 --> 03:48:28,930 Right? 3281 03:48:28,930 --> 03:48:31,930 And that's a Nostr relay that you only pay once 3282 03:48:31,930 --> 03:48:34,930 And then the data stays there forever, right? 3283 03:48:34,930 --> 03:48:38,930 Yeah, but this totally does not scale, right? 3284 03:48:38,930 --> 03:48:43,930 No, but highly secure messages, highly secure valuable messages 3285 03:48:43,930 --> 03:48:45,930 It would be worth it, right? 3286 03:48:45,930 --> 03:48:49,930 If you want to send, like, if you want to communicate between secret agents 3287 03:48:49,930 --> 03:48:51,930 That are, like, around the world or whatever 3288 03:48:51,930 --> 03:48:53,930 With encrypted messages 3289 03:48:53,930 --> 03:48:56,930 That's, you know, that's like, spam bots do that 3290 03:48:56,930 --> 03:48:57,930 With Bitcoin blockchain 3291 03:48:57,930 --> 03:49:01,930 Nostr would just make it available to humans 3292 03:49:03,930 --> 03:49:04,930 Yeah 3293 03:49:04,930 --> 03:49:05,930 Honestly, that's 3294 03:49:05,930 --> 03:49:06,930 We can get back to that 3295 03:49:06,930 --> 03:49:08,930 But I will shut up about the other stuff 3296 03:49:08,930 --> 03:49:10,930 But I have something to say about that 3297 03:49:11,930 --> 03:49:13,930 I was just going to say 3298 03:49:13,930 --> 03:49:18,930 I don't think it makes sense for private highly encrypted messages 3299 03:49:18,930 --> 03:49:21,930 To be permanently on a ledger 3300 03:49:21,930 --> 03:49:23,930 You'd be better off using the mempool 3301 03:49:23,930 --> 03:49:25,930 And have a bfemoral 3302 03:49:30,930 --> 03:49:33,930 Well, I mean, I don't use Nostr 3303 03:49:33,930 --> 03:49:35,930 Go ahead, Monsadler 3304 03:49:35,930 --> 03:49:38,930 With this, just one 3305 03:49:38,930 --> 03:49:44,930 So, some people are expecting that there will be a cyber pandemic event 3306 03:49:44,930 --> 03:49:46,930 It is kind of telegraphed 3307 03:49:46,930 --> 03:49:49,930 That there will be something made up or real 3308 03:49:49,930 --> 03:49:53,930 And in that case, actually, we could see that 3309 03:49:53,930 --> 03:49:56,930 The Bitcoin network is weaponized 3310 03:49:56,930 --> 03:49:59,930 And as a defense measure 3311 03:49:59,930 --> 03:50:03,930 Might actually, they will put real effort into 3312 03:50:03,930 --> 03:50:06,930 Trying to filter out the Bitcoin protocol 3313 03:50:06,930 --> 03:50:08,930 As a national defense effort 3314 03:50:08,930 --> 03:50:10,930 What do you think about that? 3315 03:50:10,930 --> 03:50:12,930 This is just a side tale 3316 03:50:14,930 --> 03:50:18,930 I thought recently there was a merge of some encrypted communications 3317 03:50:18,930 --> 03:50:19,930 For peer-to-peer nodes 3318 03:50:19,930 --> 03:50:21,930 Maybe deep inspection firewalls 3319 03:50:21,930 --> 03:50:24,930 Like the Great Firewall of China can handle it 3320 03:50:24,930 --> 03:50:25,930 I don't know 3321 03:50:28,930 --> 03:50:31,930 No, I don't think you can do that with deep pocket inspection 3322 03:50:31,930 --> 03:50:38,930 But I think you have to use stateful inspection 3323 03:50:38,930 --> 03:50:42,930 And man-in-the-middle attacks to actually identify 3324 03:50:42,930 --> 03:50:45,930 But I think just general traffic shape analysis 3325 03:50:45,930 --> 03:50:51,930 And just identifying the node patterns and stuff 3326 03:50:51,930 --> 03:50:54,930 Will allow them to just drop those packets 3327 03:50:54,930 --> 03:51:00,930 And basically make the Bitcoin peer-to-peer network unable to function 3328 03:51:00,930 --> 03:51:09,930 I'm not sure if they have to go absolutely sure about it 3329 03:51:09,930 --> 03:51:10,930 What about using Tor? 3330 03:51:10,930 --> 03:51:14,930 Tor recently had an upgrade with Hashcash 3331 03:51:14,930 --> 03:51:17,930 I think Tor was unusable for about a year, a year and a half 3332 03:51:19,930 --> 03:51:24,930 Is it possible to communicate with nodes in North Korea over Tor or not today? 3333 03:51:24,930 --> 03:51:26,930 I don't know, honestly 3334 03:51:27,930 --> 03:51:32,930 Again, in a scenario where they are trying to cut off 3335 03:51:32,930 --> 03:51:40,930 The command and control capability of an adversarial superpower 3336 03:51:40,930 --> 03:51:43,930 Or a belligerent superpower from their infrastructure 3337 03:51:43,930 --> 03:51:46,930 Like stop from updating the bots 3338 03:51:46,930 --> 03:51:48,930 And stop from getting new instructions 3339 03:51:48,930 --> 03:51:52,930 In a situation like that, you might even see stuff like 3340 03:51:52,930 --> 03:51:54,930 Only HTTPS and DNS works 3341 03:51:54,930 --> 03:51:55,930 And nothing else really 3342 03:51:55,930 --> 03:52:00,930 Or it's very rate-limited and doesn't work between countries whatsoever 3343 03:52:00,930 --> 03:52:03,930 So it can get pretty wild, I think 3344 03:52:03,930 --> 03:52:10,930 It can, but people have been tunneling DNS traffic over HTTPS 3345 03:52:10,930 --> 03:52:14,930 And I suppose you could tunnel peer-to-peer traffic over HTTPS as well 3346 03:52:17,930 --> 03:52:18,930 Right 3347 03:52:25,930 --> 03:52:30,930 I'm curious, what's really going on? 3348 03:52:30,930 --> 03:52:36,930 I think the whole framing of drivechains is a little bit mistaken 3349 03:52:36,930 --> 03:52:40,930 In that it should not be marketed as a change to Bitcoin 3350 03:52:40,930 --> 03:52:43,930 Maybe the right audience is the miners 3351 03:52:43,930 --> 03:52:46,930 Yeah, I agree 3352 03:52:46,930 --> 03:52:51,930 Because nobody's talking about what these sovereign roll-ups are about to do 3353 03:52:51,930 --> 03:52:56,930 But they're about to have a much bigger MEV and offensive impact on Bitcoin 3354 03:52:56,930 --> 03:52:58,930 Than drivechains ever could 3355 03:52:58,930 --> 03:53:02,930 So this is kind of like a piece of software for the miners 3356 03:53:02,930 --> 03:53:04,930 To activate with a miner-activated soft fork 3357 03:53:04,930 --> 03:53:10,930 The only question is, what is the game theory on the stability of such a soft fork 3358 03:53:10,930 --> 03:53:12,930 If it has to be announced publicly 3359 03:53:12,930 --> 03:53:14,930 Because presumably somebody launches a drivechain 3360 03:53:14,930 --> 03:53:16,930 Which is advertised on the internet 3361 03:53:16,930 --> 03:53:20,930 And the claim implicitly is that the miners will reorg out blocks 3362 03:53:20,930 --> 03:53:24,930 That include transactions offending the BIP300 3363 03:53:24,930 --> 03:53:29,930 And URSF, User Rejection Soft Fork 3364 03:53:29,930 --> 03:53:33,930 I think would be very, very difficult to coordinate 3365 03:53:33,930 --> 03:53:34,930 And it would fail 3366 03:53:34,930 --> 03:53:38,930 I would love to see how this game theory would actually play out 3367 03:53:41,930 --> 03:53:44,930 So yeah, I 100% agree that 3368 03:53:44,930 --> 03:53:47,930 It's not me who's framing it as a change 3369 03:53:47,930 --> 03:53:50,930 It's the critics 3370 03:53:50,930 --> 03:53:52,930 The critics though, they're not real critics 3371 03:53:52,930 --> 03:53:54,930 Like Moon Settler is a real critic 3372 03:53:54,930 --> 03:53:58,930 But they're just like concern trolling 3373 03:53:58,930 --> 03:54:00,930 And they just want to kill the idea 3374 03:54:00,930 --> 03:54:02,930 And they don't know anything about the idea 3375 03:54:02,930 --> 03:54:05,930 Michael Saylor or someone told them that 3376 03:54:05,930 --> 03:54:08,930 Bitcoin has to be protected against change 3377 03:54:08,930 --> 03:54:12,930 Or it just evolved out of the SegWit2x momentum 3378 03:54:12,930 --> 03:54:15,930 And so there really are no critics of this idea 3379 03:54:15,930 --> 03:54:18,930 It's just using an opcode that counts to 13,000 3380 03:54:18,930 --> 03:54:21,930 It's not even really possible to criticize the idea 3381 03:54:21,930 --> 03:54:26,930 What do you think about the stability of a miner activated soft fork? 3382 03:54:26,930 --> 03:54:30,930 No, I think the miner activated soft fork will win instantly 3383 03:54:30,930 --> 03:54:34,930 And the users cannot resist it 3384 03:54:34,930 --> 03:54:36,930 If they do, they'll be breaking the... 3385 03:54:36,930 --> 03:54:41,930 Will it be stable or will it require continual policing of the cartel of the miners? 3386 03:54:42,930 --> 03:54:46,930 If the miners activate the soft fork 3387 03:54:46,930 --> 03:54:48,930 And then all that's necessary is a few other... 3388 03:54:48,930 --> 03:54:51,930 Anyone who's using BIP300 3389 03:54:51,930 --> 03:54:56,930 If they also run a node that speaks that language 3390 03:54:56,930 --> 03:54:59,930 That also enforces that 3391 03:54:59,930 --> 03:55:02,930 Which they would do because they just want the accounting 3392 03:55:02,930 --> 03:55:06,930 You'll have a challenge from a dissenting laser-eyed miner 3393 03:55:07,930 --> 03:55:11,930 So there will be a mining pool controlled by a laser-eyed ossifier priest 3394 03:55:11,930 --> 03:55:15,930 That will try to mine a block that includes an offending transaction 3395 03:55:15,930 --> 03:55:18,930 And then everybody will see that block 3396 03:55:18,930 --> 03:55:22,930 No, no, I know, but everybody will publicly see that block orphaned 3397 03:55:22,930 --> 03:55:28,930 And this is the essentially assassination of the prince in World War I 3398 03:55:28,930 --> 03:55:32,930 That's the starting point for the next war 3399 03:55:32,930 --> 03:55:34,930 The hot war to break out 3400 03:55:34,930 --> 03:55:38,930 The next war to break out of that block is like invading Poland or whatever 3401 03:55:38,930 --> 03:55:40,930 In 1939 3402 03:55:40,930 --> 03:55:43,930 Not really, because it's actually quite different in many, many ways 3403 03:55:43,930 --> 03:55:46,930 But even if it weren't, as you said before 3404 03:55:46,930 --> 03:55:50,930 No one wants to be exiled to a different planet 3405 03:55:50,930 --> 03:55:52,930 So I think... 3406 03:55:52,930 --> 03:55:55,930 And none of these laser-eyed people run nodes or do any mining 3407 03:55:55,930 --> 03:55:57,930 They're all just fake 3408 03:55:57,930 --> 03:55:59,930 It's just one guy with a Twitter bot farm, basically 3409 03:56:00,930 --> 03:56:04,930 They're farming engagement on Twitter to sell their podcast time, essentially 3410 03:56:04,930 --> 03:56:07,930 This is the whole nature of the laser-eyed cult 3411 03:56:07,930 --> 03:56:10,930 It's a bunch of people chanting ossify 3412 03:56:10,930 --> 03:56:13,930 As a way to cause outrage on Twitter 3413 03:56:13,930 --> 03:56:16,930 To engage farm audience for their podcasts 3414 03:56:16,930 --> 03:56:19,930 And these people will tell you a year from now 3415 03:56:19,930 --> 03:56:22,930 Just buy a Blackrock ETF and sleep well at night 3416 03:56:22,930 --> 03:56:25,930 Not worrying about multi-sig backups 3417 03:56:25,930 --> 03:56:27,930 But what I'm saying is... 3418 03:56:27,930 --> 03:56:32,930 The miner-activated soft fork should be marketed probably to the miners 3419 03:56:32,930 --> 03:56:34,930 Probably exclusively 3420 03:56:34,930 --> 03:56:37,930 But it's less stable than a regular soft fork, isn't it? 3421 03:56:37,930 --> 03:56:40,930 It's less stable, isn't it? 3422 03:56:40,930 --> 03:56:42,930 No, I don't think there's any difference 3423 03:56:42,930 --> 03:56:44,930 Because... 3424 03:56:44,930 --> 03:56:47,930 It's maybe unstable in the fact that it has... 3425 03:56:52,930 --> 03:56:54,930 Paul? 3426 03:56:54,930 --> 03:56:56,930 Are you there? 3427 03:56:56,930 --> 03:56:58,930 He's lagging, I think 3428 03:57:02,906 --> 03:57:08,246 While he's lagging, just want to say that miner activated soft fork is less stable than 3429 03:57:08,246 --> 03:57:12,306 a conventional soft fork, because conventional soft fork is, of course, is 3430 03:57:12,508 --> 03:57:18,188 enforced by nodes rejecting blocks, and the miner activity soft work has to maintain 3431 03:57:18,188 --> 03:57:22,348 the cartel of miners' orphaning blocks, which is continuous 3432 03:57:22,348 --> 03:57:24,550 sort of 3433 03:57:26,930 --> 03:57:28,930 It's to their benefit to do this 3434 03:57:28,930 --> 03:57:30,930 And their software will do this by default 3435 03:57:30,930 --> 03:57:32,930 Yes 3436 03:57:32,930 --> 03:57:34,930 Paul, are you back? 3437 03:57:34,930 --> 03:57:37,930 If you activate a soft fork, basically... 3438 03:57:37,930 --> 03:57:42,930 The miners have no choice but to do something 3439 03:57:42,930 --> 03:57:44,930 Because they have... 3440 03:57:44,930 --> 03:57:46,930 I believe they have two choices 3441 03:57:46,930 --> 03:57:49,930 They either enforce the rules themselves 3442 03:57:49,930 --> 03:57:54,930 Or if they really want to try to wiggle out from enforcing the rules 3443 03:57:54,930 --> 03:57:59,930 Then they have to reject all drivechain-related transactions from their mempool 3444 03:57:59,930 --> 03:58:02,930 Not to accidentally mine something that breaks the rules 3445 03:58:02,930 --> 03:58:05,930 Because at that point they would get orphaned 3446 03:58:05,930 --> 03:58:08,930 So they would need some mempool policy filter 3447 03:58:08,930 --> 03:58:10,930 At least, I believe, to... 3448 03:58:10,930 --> 03:58:13,930 You have to assume that one of the pools will be a laserite pool 3449 03:58:13,930 --> 03:58:17,930 And will intentionally mine a block as a challenge 3450 03:58:17,930 --> 03:58:20,930 To see if it gets orphaned or not 3451 03:58:20,930 --> 03:58:23,930 The activation means that the majority of them 3452 03:58:23,930 --> 03:58:29,930 85-90% enforces the rules 3453 03:58:29,930 --> 03:58:32,930 It is suicidal to try to challenge them 3454 03:58:32,930 --> 03:58:34,930 Unless it's a test 3455 03:58:34,930 --> 03:58:38,930 You're talking about a conventional BIP-9 soft fork 3456 03:58:38,930 --> 03:58:42,930 There's never been a miner-activated soft fork of this kind tried before 3457 03:58:42,930 --> 03:58:45,930 This is where none of the nodes have upgraded 3458 03:58:45,930 --> 03:58:48,930 But the miners have agreed to orphan blocks anyways 3459 03:58:48,930 --> 03:58:51,930 Yes, it's the same thing 3460 03:58:52,930 --> 03:58:55,930 You could do it with 55 or 60% 3461 03:58:55,930 --> 03:58:59,930 But the stability of the cartel is different 3462 03:58:59,930 --> 03:59:01,930 So the only difference is 3463 03:59:01,930 --> 03:59:05,930 That the miners could in theory stop enforcing the rules any day 3464 03:59:05,930 --> 03:59:07,930 That's the only difference in my view 3465 03:59:07,930 --> 03:59:10,930 So you have the same dynamics for activation 3466 03:59:10,930 --> 03:59:12,930 You have the same dynamics for enforcement 3467 03:59:12,930 --> 03:59:15,930 But the users can't really trust it 3468 03:59:15,930 --> 03:59:18,930 Because the miners can change their mind any day 3469 03:59:18,930 --> 03:59:20,930 If they are not enforcing the rules 3470 03:59:20,930 --> 03:59:25,930 So the users would have to wait for it to be merged into core 3471 03:59:25,930 --> 03:59:27,930 And be widely distributed 3472 03:59:27,930 --> 03:59:30,930 And then they can start relying on it in theory 3473 03:59:30,930 --> 03:59:35,930 Even if you're doing miner signaling for a miner-activated soft fork 3474 03:59:35,930 --> 03:59:38,930 Miners can lie or they can change their minds 3475 03:59:38,930 --> 03:59:41,930 And to what Alex was saying 3476 03:59:42,116 --> 03:59:54,116 Let's say that an economically significant portion of nodes start rejecting blocks that use whatever opcode it ends up being 3477 03:59:54,116 --> 03:59:56,116 Opnop5 or whatever, right? 3478 03:59:56,116 --> 03:59:58,116 A miner could say, alright, fine 3479 03:59:58,116 --> 04:00:07,116 I'm going to mine a block that bypasses the normal hashrate escrow counter 3480 04:00:07,116 --> 04:00:09,116 And just spends these anyone-can-spend coins 3481 04:00:10,116 --> 04:00:16,116 And at that point, the group of miners who want to enforce BIP300 have to actively reorg that block 3482 04:00:16,116 --> 04:00:19,116 So it's not just a matter of, like, they have to enforce the rules 3483 04:00:19,116 --> 04:00:22,116 They have to be able to reorg blocks out 3484 04:00:22,116 --> 04:00:25,116 It's pretty possibly happening 3485 04:00:25,116 --> 04:00:30,116 Every node that enforces the drivechain rules at that point 3486 04:00:30,116 --> 04:00:33,116 Automatically finds that block invalid 3487 04:00:33,116 --> 04:00:35,116 So it's not so much 3488 04:00:35,116 --> 04:00:38,116 Yes, but the problem is you have to assume the worst 3489 04:00:38,116 --> 04:00:46,116 Assume that no nodes have upgraded to drivechain because it hasn't been merged into core 3490 04:00:46,116 --> 04:00:56,116 But somebody created a fork of core and merged Luke Dashjr's patch into it 3491 04:00:56,116 --> 04:01:00,116 And then 60 or 70% of the miners are running that version 3492 04:01:00,116 --> 04:01:04,116 But that version also actively has to reorg offending blocks 3493 04:01:04,116 --> 04:01:07,116 And let's say that this reorg has actually happened 3494 04:01:07,116 --> 04:01:10,116 Which is proof to everybody 3495 04:01:10,116 --> 04:01:12,116 Because everybody can see this happening 3496 04:01:12,116 --> 04:01:16,116 This is proof that there is a cartel that's now enforcing drivechains 3497 04:01:16,116 --> 04:01:20,116 And this proof is highly offensive to the laser eyes 3498 04:01:20,116 --> 04:01:23,116 Who will then rally and start screaming 3499 04:01:23,116 --> 04:01:27,116 Sorry, I thought when we are talking about miners activating 3500 04:01:27,116 --> 04:01:30,116 Is that they have been signaling and they are enforcing 3501 04:01:30,116 --> 04:01:33,116 And that's pretty much already known to everyone 3502 04:01:34,116 --> 04:01:37,116 I think we were talking about a case where it's like 3503 04:01:37,116 --> 04:01:41,116 All in LayerTwo Labs go and talk to a bunch of miners 3504 04:01:41,116 --> 04:01:44,116 And say hey, why don't you guys just turn this on 3505 04:01:44,116 --> 04:01:47,116 And then in the extreme case 3506 04:01:47,116 --> 04:01:50,116 It's like the only people who are enforcing are the miners 3507 04:01:50,116 --> 04:01:53,116 And nobody else is enforcing 3508 04:01:53,116 --> 04:01:56,116 But that wouldn't really happen 3509 04:01:56,116 --> 04:01:59,116 Because what it would be 3510 04:01:59,116 --> 04:02:01,116 With the miner activated soft fork would be like 3511 04:02:01,116 --> 04:02:04,116 You release software that invalidates any block 3512 04:02:04,116 --> 04:02:07,116 That breaks the BIP300 rule 3513 04:02:07,116 --> 04:02:10,116 And then it only activates if like some threshold 3514 04:02:10,116 --> 04:02:13,116 Whatever, 75% 3515 04:02:13,116 --> 04:02:16,116 Of miners upgrade 3516 04:02:16,116 --> 04:02:19,116 In their whatever, if they signal in the 3517 04:02:19,116 --> 04:02:22,116 2000 block period or whatever it is 3518 04:02:22,116 --> 04:02:25,116 So if you did that 3519 04:02:25,116 --> 04:02:28,116 Then what would happen would be anyone who wanted to use 3520 04:02:29,116 --> 04:02:32,116 BIP300 like an end user who wanted whatever 3521 04:02:32,116 --> 04:02:35,116 Zcat sidechain, they would also be running it 3522 04:02:35,116 --> 04:02:38,116 Because the best way to just track all the deposits and withdrawals 3523 04:02:38,116 --> 04:02:41,116 Is just to straight up run the software 3524 04:02:43,116 --> 04:02:46,116 So it would start to accumulate users 3525 04:02:46,116 --> 04:02:49,116 But by the time that enough people 3526 04:02:49,116 --> 04:02:52,116 By the time there was any significant amount of money 3527 04:02:52,116 --> 04:02:55,116 In the chain there would be like some people 3528 04:02:55,116 --> 04:02:58,116 Running it and then of course 3529 04:02:58,116 --> 04:03:01,116 Well with the soft fork or even with the hard fork 3530 04:03:01,116 --> 04:03:04,116 The exchanges would play a pretty big role I would think 3531 04:03:04,116 --> 04:03:07,116 Because everyone cares so much about the liquidity 3532 04:03:07,116 --> 04:03:10,116 But I think 3533 04:03:10,116 --> 04:03:13,116 When some rogue pool that's not on board with drivechains 3534 04:03:13,116 --> 04:03:16,116 Decides to just take the coins 3535 04:03:16,116 --> 04:03:19,116 So they just decide to 3536 04:03:19,116 --> 04:03:22,116 The 75% will not build on that block 3537 04:03:23,116 --> 04:03:26,116 And then it will always be 3538 04:03:26,116 --> 04:03:29,116 That will trigger the outrage of the anti-drivechain crowd 3539 04:03:29,116 --> 04:03:32,116 To run and install URS clients 3540 04:03:32,116 --> 04:03:35,116 And the question is 3541 04:03:35,116 --> 04:03:38,116 What happens then 3542 04:03:38,116 --> 04:03:41,116 Because what that is is really a hard fork 3543 04:03:41,116 --> 04:03:44,116 Because they break the heaviest 3544 04:03:44,116 --> 04:03:47,116 You're asking people to do something where you're only on the chain that the upgraded people are on 3545 04:03:47,116 --> 04:03:50,116 You're going to break the heaviest chain 3546 04:03:50,116 --> 04:03:53,116 You're right that's a hard fork 3547 04:03:53,116 --> 04:03:56,116 And let's say that fails 3548 04:03:56,116 --> 04:03:59,116 However long term what is the stability of such a soft fork 3549 04:03:59,116 --> 04:04:02,116 When 99% of conventional nodes that are still running the unpatched core 3550 04:04:02,116 --> 04:04:05,116 Are not enforcing it 3551 04:04:05,116 --> 04:04:08,116 It seems like the miners have to keep coordinating 3552 04:04:08,116 --> 04:04:11,116 The cartel to stay active 3553 04:04:11,116 --> 04:04:14,116 They cannot have the center 3554 04:04:14,116 --> 04:04:17,116 So this is like the fragility of the cartel problem 3555 04:04:17,116 --> 04:04:20,116 It would be very difficult 3556 04:04:20,116 --> 04:04:23,116 To upgrade to the latest version of Bitcoin Core 3557 04:04:23,116 --> 04:04:26,116 Because Bitcoin Core might not have support for BIP300 3558 04:04:26,116 --> 04:04:29,116 And it would then maybe end the road of upgrades in that direction 3559 04:04:29,116 --> 04:04:32,116 They would have to 3560 04:04:32,116 --> 04:04:35,116 Yes 3561 04:04:35,116 --> 04:04:38,116 But in order to make it easy for them 3562 04:04:38,116 --> 04:04:41,116 You would have to have a tracking patch 3563 04:04:41,116 --> 04:04:44,116 That has no rebasing conflicts with core 3564 04:04:45,116 --> 04:04:48,116 You could just merge this patch on the side 3565 04:04:48,116 --> 04:04:51,116 And obtain the new version for miners 3566 04:04:51,116 --> 04:04:54,116 Because without that the cartel starts falling apart 3567 04:04:54,116 --> 04:04:57,116 As soon as the new core is released and some people upgrade and others don't 3568 04:04:57,116 --> 04:05:00,116 If you think about that though 3569 04:05:00,116 --> 04:05:03,116 Think about the fact that there are no soft forks anymore 3570 04:05:03,116 --> 04:05:06,116 And then you think maybe 3571 04:05:06,116 --> 04:05:09,116 It actually doesn't matter 3572 04:05:09,116 --> 04:05:12,116 Because Bitcoin Core is never going to ship anything 3573 04:05:13,116 --> 04:05:16,116 That actually makes any difference to anything 3574 04:05:16,116 --> 04:05:19,116 Jeremy Rubin was told by core maintainers 3575 04:05:19,116 --> 04:05:22,116 He was essentially told that if you want to do a soft fork 3576 04:05:22,116 --> 04:05:25,116 You should not do it within core now 3577 04:05:25,116 --> 04:05:28,116 You should just have alternative clients 3578 04:05:28,116 --> 04:05:31,116 Recently there was a submission about 3579 04:05:31,116 --> 04:05:34,116 Covenant tools that has three soft forks in one 3580 04:05:34,116 --> 04:05:37,116 And it's not clear 3581 04:05:37,116 --> 04:05:40,116 That the maintainers will merge it or not 3582 04:05:41,116 --> 04:05:44,116 If the ossification crowd is so strong 3583 04:05:44,116 --> 04:05:47,116 That no changes to consensus can get merged now 3584 04:05:47,116 --> 04:05:50,116 Without people losing all their privileges in core 3585 04:05:50,116 --> 04:05:53,116 Just being sort of silently shunned 3586 04:05:53,116 --> 04:05:56,116 Or losing their 3587 04:05:56,116 --> 04:05:59,116 Maintainer privileges or what have you 3588 04:05:59,116 --> 04:06:02,116 If no merging in the core is possible 3589 04:06:02,116 --> 04:06:05,116 Then somebody has to try what Jeremy Rubin didn't try 3590 04:06:05,116 --> 04:06:08,116 Which is to create this patch that can be tracking core 3591 04:06:08,116 --> 04:06:11,116 Without conflicts continuously 3592 04:06:11,116 --> 04:06:14,116 And then create core plus essentially 3593 04:06:14,116 --> 04:06:17,116 By the way 3594 04:06:17,116 --> 04:06:20,116 I was just going to say 3595 04:06:20,116 --> 04:06:23,116 I think that's what might be necessary for activation 3596 04:06:23,116 --> 04:06:26,116 But I think if a soft fork actually got activated 3597 04:06:26,116 --> 04:06:29,116 It would get merged into core 3598 04:06:29,116 --> 04:06:32,116 I think the thing that core maintainers are trying to 3599 04:06:32,116 --> 04:06:35,116 Get out of the business of doing 3600 04:06:35,116 --> 04:06:38,116 Is to get out of the business of 3601 04:06:38,116 --> 04:06:41,116 Neglecting the privacy 3602 04:06:41,116 --> 04:06:44,116 Or weighing in on consensus changes 3603 04:06:44,116 --> 04:06:47,116 But if the network has activated a consensus chain 3604 04:06:47,116 --> 04:06:50,116 Yeah, but they can plausibly argue 3605 04:06:50,116 --> 04:06:53,116 That if the nodes are not enforcing it 3606 04:06:53,116 --> 04:06:56,116 It's not a real soft fork 3607 04:06:56,116 --> 04:06:59,116 It's kind of like a censorship attack by the cartel 3608 04:06:59,116 --> 04:07:02,116 Yeah, so let's leave drivechains aside for a minute 3609 04:07:02,116 --> 04:07:05,116 But let's leave drivechains aside for a minute 3610 04:07:05,116 --> 04:07:07,736 network and nodes are enforcing it. 3611 04:07:07,936 --> 04:07:13,816 That's a scenario where I could see that being upstreamed into core after activation. 3612 04:07:14,656 --> 04:07:17,476 That's what they said, at least that was my understanding. 3613 04:07:17,996 --> 04:07:23,636 That was the communication that if it's activated properly, then it will get merged 3614 04:07:23,636 --> 04:07:24,187 into core, 3615 04:07:24,187 --> 04:07:30,027 But by activated they mean if 80 % of nodes are actually upgraded to 3616 04:07:30,027 --> 04:07:30,767 that soft fork. 3617 04:07:31,007 --> 04:07:33,567 don't mean cell owners are censoring. 3618 04:07:33,787 --> 04:07:37,527 nodes are not measurable really. 3619 04:07:38,007 --> 04:07:43,107 we all know that you can't really have consensus with nodes. 3620 04:07:44,138 --> 04:07:49,838 if somehow the users managed to go or 3621 04:07:49,838 --> 04:07:54,358 coerce or plead the miners into activating it, 3622 04:07:56,078 --> 04:07:59,878 bit -proper signaling and whatever activation parameters, and it is the understanding 3623 04:07:59,878 --> 04:08:02,330 that it is now enforced on the network, 3624 04:08:02,490 --> 04:08:04,730 than they would include it. 3625 04:08:04,730 --> 04:08:05,870 That was my understanding. 3626 04:08:05,990 --> 04:08:11,150 I don't actually know what the maintainers think, but it seemed like that's what they 3627 04:08:11,150 --> 04:08:11,750 are saying. 3628 04:08:13,270 --> 04:08:18,630 Paul, why haven't we seen the cartel of miners activate LayerTwo Southpork yet? 3629 04:08:19,230 --> 04:08:21,390 Are they afraid of the laser -eyed priests and 3630 04:08:21,401 --> 04:08:22,321 all the controversy? 3631 04:08:23,101 --> 04:08:24,681 they're for their revenues to come up. 3632 04:08:24,681 --> 04:08:25,001 a good idea. 3633 04:08:25,761 --> 04:08:31,661 But remember that we have yet to actually ship anything 3634 04:08:31,661 --> 04:08:33,141 that could be activated. 3635 04:08:34,581 --> 04:08:40,241 We have our testnet software, which is slightly different from 3636 04:08:40,473 --> 04:08:41,513 Luke's pull request. 3637 04:08:42,653 --> 04:08:43,913 How is that doing? 3638 04:08:44,273 --> 04:08:50,033 Well that one didn't, Luke's pull request did not have activation logic and it was 3639 04:08:50,033 --> 04:08:55,093 it was not reviewed or tested by anyone except Rhindahl. 3640 04:08:56,593 --> 04:08:57,393 like two other people. 3641 04:08:57,453 --> 04:08:58,613 by the core essentially. 3642 04:08:58,793 --> 04:08:59,533 shown by the 3643 04:08:59,544 --> 04:09:05,384 core. Well, it would be better if we had a pull request that 3644 04:09:05,384 --> 04:09:10,764 lots of people had actually looked at and had given a thought on. 3645 04:09:11,844 --> 04:09:17,684 Of course, the main goal with the pull request was to take the logic of the 3646 04:09:17,684 --> 04:09:18,616 BIP300 text 3647 04:09:18,796 --> 04:09:24,796 and the code that we had already written and acknowledge the fact that Bitcoin Core 3648 04:09:24,796 --> 04:09:28,996 has certain, you know, customs and rules and things about, like, know, like about 3649 04:09:28,996 --> 04:09:34,016 whether or not certain letters are capitalized and, you know, stuff like that. 3650 04:09:35,056 --> 04:09:37,076 And also everyone thinks I have to be easy to maintain 3651 04:09:38,687 --> 04:09:39,247 such and such. 3652 04:09:40,087 --> 04:09:42,627 there's these little idiosyncrasies. 3653 04:09:43,447 --> 04:09:47,027 So let's try to respect that, something that would really fit in. 3654 04:09:47,867 --> 04:09:52,547 So it's not like there is no code, but it is like there is nothing that 3655 04:09:52,547 --> 04:09:56,527 perhaps would be totally up to the 3656 04:09:56,758 --> 04:09:57,078 caliber, 3657 04:09:58,278 --> 04:10:00,118 but we're working on that. 3658 04:10:01,658 --> 04:10:06,078 Although it would help if people would look at Luke's pull request and give a real 3659 04:10:06,078 --> 04:10:09,998 opinion on it as far as actual code. 3660 04:10:10,858 --> 04:10:15,658 So maybe we should just give up on waiting for people in Bitcoin Core to do it and try 3661 04:10:15,830 --> 04:10:21,290 to hire the most expensive freelance C++ people we can find 3662 04:10:21,290 --> 04:10:24,630 and just have them go through it or something like that. 3663 04:10:24,750 --> 04:10:29,930 don't know what specifically would be done, but we have yet to actually produce, and I 3664 04:10:29,930 --> 04:10:34,870 personally have actually delayed intentionally producing such a thing for as 3665 04:10:34,901 --> 04:10:39,101 long as possible because I thought I'm not exactly sure what would happen after I did 3666 04:10:39,101 --> 04:10:39,941 that, you know. 3667 04:10:40,401 --> 04:10:43,061 So I did kind of want to not do that. 3668 04:10:43,861 --> 04:10:45,021 have a desire to be nice. 3669 04:10:45,201 --> 04:10:48,421 You've been delaying things since 2015, right? 3670 04:10:49,061 --> 04:10:49,801 Yes, that's true. 3671 04:10:50,261 --> 04:10:51,481 got to try something new now. 3672 04:10:53,581 --> 04:10:53,973 Yeah, 3673 04:10:54,493 --> 04:10:55,353 well, you know, 3674 04:10:56,613 --> 04:10:57,753 think you're right. 3675 04:10:57,913 --> 04:10:59,053 have tried a couple new things. 3676 04:11:00,373 --> 04:11:06,073 I think that some people, some people take offense if you open a pull request before 3677 04:11:06,073 --> 04:11:11,213 there is technical consensus, whatever the that means. 3678 04:11:12,333 --> 04:11:12,913 those are called 3679 04:11:13,044 --> 04:11:14,324 draft pull requests, right? 3680 04:11:14,604 --> 04:11:17,304 That's why you could be marked as a draft. 3681 04:11:19,384 --> 04:11:20,424 Yeah, of course. 3682 04:11:21,784 --> 04:11:26,124 But then you saw that even in the pull request, saw, obviously, anyone who looks 3683 04:11:26,124 --> 04:11:30,264 through the comments can see plenty of people, including Peter Todd and whatever they 3684 04:11:30,264 --> 04:11:31,164 were saying, basically, 3685 04:11:32,116 --> 04:11:33,776 this poor question never been opened. 3686 04:11:34,776 --> 04:11:39,896 So. Yeah, Luke has basically said that he is not looking for concept X, right? 3687 04:11:40,096 --> 04:11:41,256 That's not the point. 3688 04:11:41,596 --> 04:11:44,736 He asked this and that was pretty much all he got. 3689 04:11:46,476 --> 04:11:50,656 My point is like, you gotta stop asking for permission because those silver and roll up 3690 04:11:50,656 --> 04:11:55,836 people and the dark net roll up people that are about to deploy their roll ups, they 3691 04:11:55,836 --> 04:11:57,436 don't bother asking for permission. 3692 04:11:58,256 --> 04:12:01,096 Asking for permission is essentially asking to be told no. 3693 04:12:06,696 --> 04:12:08,096 the 3694 04:12:10,556 --> 04:12:15,176 whatever arguments apply against drivechains apply tenfold against sovereign rollups. 3695 04:12:16,016 --> 04:12:21,096 offensive, you know, impact on the MEV, whatever the hell you came up with. 3696 04:12:21,136 --> 04:12:22,776 Let's just be clear. 3697 04:12:23,616 --> 04:12:26,976 You are talking about when you say sovereign rollups, mean people in Ethereum 3698 04:12:27,330 --> 04:12:32,250 dumping a bunch of ETH data, using BTC as a parking lot. 3699 04:12:33,190 --> 04:12:38,650 No, no. It's actually a brand new deployment of the EVM compatible chain 3700 04:12:38,650 --> 04:12:43,950 that, in Ethereum world, they have a very well -developed terminology for kinds of 3701 04:12:43,950 --> 04:12:46,470 rollups, and the sexiest rollups are either base 3702 04:12:46,864 --> 04:12:54,064 is 3703 04:12:54,064 --> 04:12:58,704 the Bitcoin is way to create a two -way peg. 3704 04:13:01,324 --> 04:13:05,584 The Bitcoin is is to The a create a The good The Bitcoin 3705 04:13:05,778 --> 04:13:10,238 of what the data means and whether it's valid or not is left completely to the nodes of 3706 04:13:10,238 --> 04:13:15,338 the rollup. So there's a company called Chainway, which is about to deploy in a few 3707 04:13:15,338 --> 04:13:20,278 weeks or months a sovereign rollup with all the Ethereum tooling and probably cloned 3708 04:13:20,278 --> 04:13:22,698 all the Ethereum protocols onto Bitcoin. 3709 04:13:23,478 --> 04:13:24,958 and it will probably have 3710 04:13:24,973 --> 04:13:29,573 a shit coin in there because the two -way peg now they made some noises about some kind 3711 04:13:29,573 --> 04:13:34,013 of interesting novel two -way peg design that's kind of the secret sauce that they're 3712 04:13:34,013 --> 04:13:39,553 withholding until later which may may not be trust minimized enough but my point is 3713 04:13:39,553 --> 04:13:44,013 that these roll -ups will all whatever 3714 04:13:44,187 --> 04:13:49,467 criticism applies against Drivechain applies more so to the rollups because rollups 3715 04:13:49,467 --> 04:13:52,267 actually operate right on the Bitcoin blockchain, right? 3716 04:13:52,427 --> 04:13:54,507 They embed the data inside Bitcoin transactions. 3717 04:13:55,227 --> 04:14:00,407 So therefore, MEV and every other concern, you know, is much more acute 3718 04:14:00,407 --> 04:14:03,401 with with sovereign rollups than it is with Drivechains, 3719 04:14:03,401 --> 04:14:09,381 Drivechains including offensive content, M -V, whatever, miner incentives completely 3720 04:14:09,381 --> 04:14:11,621 change if the rollup becomes popular. 3721 04:14:13,061 --> 04:14:19,001 whatever objections apply to DC apply to sovereign rollups 10 times 10 3722 04:14:19,001 --> 04:14:22,616 to 10 fold, but nobody talks about them because Bitcoin or the 3723 04:14:22,716 --> 04:14:25,636 laser I call this impotent to do anything about them. 3724 04:14:26,676 --> 04:14:29,236 And therefore it's not even a subject to discussion, right? 3725 04:14:33,576 --> 04:14:35,096 Well, I agree with you. 3726 04:14:36,236 --> 04:14:37,296 I mean, I have occasionally said. 3727 04:14:37,696 --> 04:14:41,516 by lobbying, you created a shelling point for the laser I called 3728 04:14:41,830 --> 04:14:47,610 to criticize you and coordinate with each other by finger pointing and 3729 04:14:47,610 --> 04:14:53,510 saying that, look, Paul Sztorc is the devil here, he's trying to kill Bitcoin by 3730 04:14:53,510 --> 04:14:54,950 introducing this change X. 3731 04:14:55,590 --> 04:15:00,250 So you're just feeding their engagement farming on Twitter by being a personification 3732 04:15:00,250 --> 04:15:01,044 of the devil 3733 04:15:01,144 --> 04:15:06,124 that they all need in order to rally the faithful, Whereas the real devil, quote 3734 04:15:06,124 --> 04:15:10,004 unquote, is the sovereign roll ups and ordinals that don't bother asking permission and 3735 04:15:10,004 --> 04:15:14,484 they don't get personified and they don't parade themselves in front of their laser 3736 04:15:14,484 --> 04:15:17,824 eyed priest cult and then they just do what they want. 3737 04:15:18,504 --> 04:15:20,084 And that's, I think what you should, that's the, 3738 04:15:20,258 --> 04:15:26,058 that's your end game is to do what needs to be done, I think, playing nice has only 3739 04:15:26,058 --> 04:15:29,358 made things worse for Drivechains and for Bitcoin. 3740 04:15:36,478 --> 04:15:39,398 Well, stay tuned, know, because there's always 3741 04:15:39,473 --> 04:15:41,273 time to break bad, right? 3742 04:15:41,693 --> 04:15:46,113 I think you hinted that you want to do something around the time of the having, which 3743 04:15:46,113 --> 04:15:51,973 is not too far away, April next year, because maybe there'll be some kind of cut in 3744 04:15:51,973 --> 04:15:55,973 revenue and the miners will all of sudden become highly incentivized to do something. 3745 04:15:56,873 --> 04:15:58,687 But if you're to do that, then 3746 04:15:58,687 --> 04:16:03,827 you have to provide a client and test nets like now in order to do something early next 3747 04:16:03,827 --> 04:16:09,807 year around the time of the halving or 3748 04:16:10,727 --> 04:16:11,327 Right. 3749 04:16:14,727 --> 04:16:16,727 Well, I got disconnected there. 3750 04:16:16,747 --> 04:16:17,787 Now I have a green person, 3751 04:16:19,861 --> 04:16:21,521 a green Block6 backup. 3752 04:16:23,641 --> 04:16:26,441 hope they... we have Ryan Dahl, of course. 3753 04:16:27,701 --> 04:16:30,941 So I hope everyone got their questions answered or whatever. 3754 04:16:44,316 --> 04:16:46,616 We have been going for a little while, 3755 04:16:49,196 --> 04:16:53,376 so maybe we should start to wrap it up. 3756 04:16:57,116 --> 04:17:00,116 If you need to ask questions, quick 3757 04:17:18,116 --> 04:17:21,116 Okay, I don't hear any 3758 04:17:26,116 --> 04:17:29,116 Well, I guess we should call it here then 3759 04:17:29,116 --> 04:17:32,116 So this has been a very fun one 3760 04:17:32,116 --> 04:17:35,116 Still no critics or whatever decided to show up? 3761 04:17:35,116 --> 04:17:38,116 Still no critics or whatever decided to show up? 3762 04:17:38,116 --> 04:17:41,116 I hear you. Sorry, I just wanted to say I crashed in the previous minutes and I hear you 3763 04:17:41,116 --> 04:17:44,116 I hear you. Sorry, I just wanted to say I crashed in the previous minutes and I hear you 3764 04:17:44,116 --> 04:17:47,116 I hear you. Sorry, I just wanted to say I crashed in the previous minutes and I hear you 3765 04:17:47,116 --> 04:17:50,116 Okay, great 3766 04:17:50,116 --> 04:17:53,116 About to talk and he got disconnected, so 3767 04:17:54,116 --> 04:17:57,116 Oh 3768 04:17:57,116 --> 04:18:00,116 Space is a complete shit show 3769 04:18:00,116 --> 04:18:03,116 I crashed like 4 or 5 times 3770 04:18:03,116 --> 04:18:06,116 I don't understand why 3771 04:18:06,116 --> 04:18:08,336 people crash and so I crash myself a lot. 3772 04:18:08,496 --> 04:18:09,456 don't know why. 3773 04:18:10,016 --> 04:18:15,996 will putting this shit like this, Alo fire, 90 % of the employees on Twitter is working 3774 04:18:15,996 --> 04:18:18,716 fine. mean, it's not working fine. 3775 04:18:20,816 --> 04:18:25,116 Still though, is kind of, for not firing 90%, I mean, that's, 3776 04:18:25,116 --> 04:18:28,116 For firing 90%, it is kind of remarkable 3777 04:18:28,116 --> 04:18:31,116 It's pretty good 3778 04:18:31,116 --> 04:18:34,116 But they still can't deploy Spaces thing onto iPads 3779 04:18:34,116 --> 04:18:37,116 Yeah, Spaces doesn't really work that well 3780 04:18:37,116 --> 04:18:40,116 Yeah, Spaces doesn't really work that well 3781 04:18:40,116 --> 04:18:43,116 Can you imagine, when else would you even be able to... 3782 04:18:43,116 --> 04:18:46,116 What if a train company fired 90% of the staff 3783 04:18:46,116 --> 04:18:49,116 What if a train company fired 90% of the staff 3784 04:18:49,116 --> 04:18:52,116 Or like, I don't know 3785 04:18:52,116 --> 04:18:55,116 Well, most of our employees were probably political commissars 3786 04:18:55,116 --> 04:18:58,116 Well, most of our employees were probably political commissars 3787 04:18:58,116 --> 04:19:01,116 Policing political correctness and wokeism on the network 3788 04:19:01,116 --> 04:19:04,116 Policing political correctness and wokeism on the network 3789 04:19:04,116 --> 04:19:07,116 Democracy was at risk, it was absolutely essential that we hire those people full time 3790 04:19:07,116 --> 04:19:10,116 Democracy was at risk, it was absolutely essential that we hire those people full time 3791 04:19:10,116 --> 04:19:13,116 Benefits, healthcare, and remove disinformation 3792 04:19:13,116 --> 04:19:16,116 That could harm our society 3793 04:19:16,116 --> 04:19:17,476 our society. 3794 04:19:18,956 --> 04:19:24,216 Because, as we all know, if you hear about it on Twitter, that means it must be true. 3795 04:19:31,536 --> 04:19:34,116 Somebody needs to start mirroring Twitter in 3796 04:19:34,116 --> 04:19:37,116 Somebody needs to start mirroring Twitter inscriptions 3797 04:19:37,116 --> 04:19:40,116 That way it will actually become immutable 3798 04:19:40,116 --> 04:19:43,116 That way it will actually become immutable 3799 04:19:42,777 --> 04:19:45,777 You need like a good bird pun for that 3800 04:19:45,777 --> 04:19:46,777 You need like a good bird pun for that 3801 04:19:46,777 --> 04:19:47,777 Creative people, get on it 3802 04:19:47,777 --> 04:19:48,777 Creative people, get on it 3803 04:19:48,777 --> 04:19:49,777 What's a bird inscription pun? 3804 04:19:49,997 --> 04:19:50,917 What's a bird inscription? 3805 04:19:51,337 --> 04:19:56,837 No, should should should mirror only the tweets that have like that were published by 3806 04:19:56,837 --> 04:20:01,517 people with like 10 million or more followers into inscriptions automatically and then 3807 04:20:01,517 --> 04:20:02,697 nobody can delete a tweet. 3808 04:20:03,577 --> 04:20:06,877 So you have like eternal, eternal X. 3809 04:20:07,277 --> 04:20:09,657 So the 3810 04:20:11,221 --> 04:20:13,461 Unkillable Bird. There you go, that's a freebie. 3811 04:20:17,441 --> 04:20:23,261 I mean, that's just another unknown application of inscriptions that, along with 3812 04:20:23,261 --> 04:20:27,821 using inscriptions as a relay for Nostr, which is kind of like my fantasy, 3813 04:20:28,981 --> 04:20:29,665 ultra -secure 3814 04:20:29,705 --> 04:20:31,945 and ouster messaging with eternal messages. 3815 04:20:36,045 --> 04:20:39,545 Now you're turning into a Bitcoin SV guy. 3816 04:20:40,065 --> 04:20:45,925 I'm the original OG like you, is like the unknown unknown uses of digital scarcity, 3817 04:20:46,405 --> 04:20:49,305 as opposed to like monetarist, thematics, 3818 04:20:49,669 --> 04:20:51,549 the laser -eyed cult. 3819 04:20:53,889 --> 04:20:59,329 Yeah, they're very weird in that they think demand can only like 3820 04:20:59,329 --> 04:21:01,389 flow one direction or something. 3821 04:21:01,529 --> 04:21:02,749 don't even really get it. 3822 04:21:03,189 --> 04:21:08,089 They're literally like saying like it's bad if gold was discovered to cure cancer and 3823 04:21:08,089 --> 04:21:09,553 allow us to 3824 04:21:12,913 --> 04:21:18,873 It would only be bad for 3825 04:21:18,873 --> 04:21:24,633 their engagement on podcasts because they have to create dietary restrictions 3826 04:21:24,633 --> 04:21:26,573 to the religion. 3827 04:21:26,573 --> 04:21:29,473 like you must not do a million things otherwise all 3828 04:21:29,498 --> 04:21:35,238 the faithful are outraged because nothing like outrage drives engagement on Twitter 3829 04:21:35,238 --> 04:21:40,578 and so ultimately you know like like the Berkshire Hathaway 3830 04:21:40,578 --> 04:21:44,838 guy says show me the incentives and I'll show you the outcomes and now we're seeing 3831 04:21:44,838 --> 04:21:45,458 outcomes 3832 04:21:47,158 --> 04:21:49,442 we have two new people who may hit it up here 3833 04:21:49,442 --> 04:21:50,022 here. 3834 04:21:52,582 --> 04:21:53,542 What's up guys? 3835 04:21:55,622 --> 04:22:00,162 So you said about making Twitter little sensible. 3836 04:22:01,622 --> 04:22:02,862 You guys are not right? 3837 04:22:03,762 --> 04:22:04,222 I hope so. 3838 04:22:05,302 --> 04:22:09,386 I have this idea for a sidechain that's because 3839 04:22:09,386 --> 04:22:15,006 Because I think that's just like I said, fearpocalypse to come and people try to 3840 04:22:15,006 --> 04:22:17,386 escalate Bitcoin in some way. 3841 04:22:18,726 --> 04:22:24,106 one thing that I hate on our studies is that 3842 04:22:24,106 --> 04:22:27,606 it gives RIP to the release. 3843 04:22:29,006 --> 04:22:29,330 And I think 3844 04:22:31,330 --> 04:22:34,370 The Lightning is all Custodial. 3845 04:22:34,970 --> 04:22:40,450 Everyone uses Wotaputoshi, uses Albi. 3846 04:22:40,970 --> 04:22:46,870 For now it's good, but if you want to have a medium user, how many users do 3847 04:22:46,870 --> 04:22:49,210 have? So if 3848 04:22:49,514 --> 04:22:55,494 noster scales to that point, need to have, I think, my opinion, best way should 3849 04:22:55,494 --> 04:22:58,174 be have a sidechain with 3850 04:22:58,174 --> 04:23:01,654 nodes, 3851 04:23:03,554 --> 04:23:07,494 sidechain with relay effects of noster together. 3852 04:23:07,494 --> 04:23:09,194 and the 3853 04:23:09,218 --> 04:23:14,878 incentives of the sidechain come to the relay. 3854 04:23:15,558 --> 04:23:21,198 So the relay can be paid to host the data and we could 3855 04:23:21,198 --> 04:23:26,098 make something like a fork of Monero or 3856 04:23:26,098 --> 04:23:29,163 pick up the code of the Monero 3857 04:23:30,443 --> 04:23:35,463 or another ZSNARK, another thing for 3858 04:23:35,463 --> 04:23:36,643 anonymity. 3859 04:23:40,603 --> 04:23:42,403 Anonymity because... Is that possible? 3860 04:23:43,963 --> 04:23:44,803 Some of it is. 3861 04:23:45,203 --> 04:23:48,843 I think the problem with IP is, 3862 04:23:49,107 --> 04:23:52,187 at the end of the day you have to accomplish two contradictory things. 3863 04:23:52,707 --> 04:23:57,707 Everyone has to able to find your computer to message you and you have to find other 3864 04:23:57,707 --> 04:23:59,187 people's computer to message them. 3865 04:23:59,927 --> 04:24:03,707 But also everyone wants the location of their computer to be hidden. 3866 04:24:05,227 --> 04:24:08,667 So it's is a bit of a contradiction and there's ways around it. 3867 04:24:09,051 --> 04:24:13,111 what I think the way to go is I wrote a called Bit Names. 3868 04:24:13,551 --> 04:24:16,591 you search for it, you find on my blog, Truthcoin Bit Names. 3869 04:24:17,651 --> 04:24:19,951 And I have this little section in there about social media. 3870 04:24:20,111 --> 04:24:25,291 And what I think you should do is you should have your name on a sidechain and you 3871 04:24:25,291 --> 04:24:26,631 should have a fallback. 3872 04:24:26,691 --> 04:24:28,671 There should be like a fallback Twitter 3873 04:24:28,995 --> 04:24:31,575 there that's very rarely used. 3874 04:24:31,695 --> 04:24:36,495 only use it if you get like shadow banned or canceled or something, or you get like 3875 04:24:36,495 --> 04:24:37,635 demonetized or whatever. 3876 04:24:38,155 --> 04:24:43,535 They just delete your account, you know, then you use it to tell everyone where your 3877 04:24:43,535 --> 04:24:44,475 new account is. 3878 04:24:45,315 --> 04:24:48,815 And so it's sort of you're only 3879 04:24:48,939 --> 04:24:50,199 using it when, 3880 04:24:52,059 --> 04:24:54,579 it's basically the layer one of your Twitter. 3881 04:24:56,559 --> 04:25:02,499 And then everything else is like a custodial cached L2, Twitter, it's more server 3882 04:25:02,499 --> 04:25:03,699 -based or something like that. 3883 04:25:04,119 --> 04:25:06,679 So that's what I think is the way to go. 3884 04:25:07,839 --> 04:25:08,779 I don't 3885 04:25:09,004 --> 04:25:14,804 about putting every single tweet on the blockchain if that is actually ultimately going 3886 04:25:14,804 --> 04:25:16,864 to because of just... 3887 04:25:16,864 --> 04:25:20,604 The thing is, don't want put every single Twitch on a blockchain. 3888 04:25:21,044 --> 04:25:21,864 once, 3889 04:25:23,164 --> 04:25:28,828 instead of using Lightning on Oster, using Sidechain. 3890 04:25:34,568 --> 04:25:39,008 The release of the monster could be monetized through this network. 3891 04:25:40,068 --> 04:25:41,828 So they will be sent to buy us to host data. 3892 04:25:48,772 --> 04:25:52,932 create new project. 3893 04:25:56,112 --> 04:26:02,112 And create a what 3894 04:26:02,112 --> 04:26:03,632 create a new do project. 3895 04:26:03,632 --> 04:26:06,952 do And what would like create a new project. 3896 04:26:07,312 --> 04:26:08,472 create 3897 04:26:08,716 --> 04:26:11,196 anything because then you really are storing. 3898 04:26:12,016 --> 04:26:15,456 That is the case where you have an unlimited amount of data available. 3899 04:26:15,636 --> 04:26:21,216 It's not like immortal the way L1, ordinal inscription data is, but 3900 04:26:21,216 --> 04:26:23,656 it's at least unlimited in size. 3901 04:26:24,676 --> 04:26:25,516 It can be everything. 3902 04:26:25,516 --> 04:26:28,660 Like you could just flip the entire reality 3903 04:26:29,080 --> 04:26:35,080 where everything hosted by AWS, everything hosted by Linode, everything hosted 3904 04:26:35,080 --> 04:26:40,380 by whatever, DigitalOcean, all of that could be flipped to 3905 04:26:40,380 --> 04:26:44,680 go into the decentralized protocol because 3906 04:26:44,680 --> 04:26:48,500 it's not the storage itself, 3907 04:26:48,604 --> 04:26:53,564 it's on the blockchain, it's just these periodic proofs so it has this log -in scaling. 3908 04:26:55,124 --> 04:27:00,184 So that's a kind of ambitious idea, but I think something like that could happen and I 3909 04:27:00,184 --> 04:27:02,564 think the name coin thing that would do your identity. 3910 04:27:03,244 --> 04:27:07,704 Your identity would be like your actual name everywhere. 3911 04:27:07,704 --> 04:27:08,464 So you 3912 04:27:08,549 --> 04:27:12,429 wouldn't just have like a screen name on Twitter, a screen name on YouTube, screen name 3913 04:27:12,429 --> 04:27:14,749 on whatever, Instagram. 3914 04:27:15,709 --> 04:27:21,469 So I think that's a good place to actually have some kind of like on blockchain 3915 04:27:21,469 --> 04:27:23,329 social media thing. 3916 04:27:23,329 --> 04:27:27,149 Although of course it would not actually work for Scanlon to every single message. 3917 04:27:28,109 --> 04:27:28,489 But 3918 04:27:28,493 --> 04:27:34,173 the few key messages registering, letting people know what your public key is 3919 04:27:34,173 --> 04:27:38,753 so that they can communicate with you, letting people know where to find you, like what 3920 04:27:38,753 --> 04:27:42,593 is your onion address or your ITP address or something. 3921 04:27:43,153 --> 04:27:46,153 I think that, something like that could work, I think. 3922 04:27:48,073 --> 04:27:48,437 I 3923 04:27:48,957 --> 04:27:50,077 is one problem. 3924 04:27:50,497 --> 04:27:56,297 Nostr has that that is probably more important than the long -term 3925 04:27:56,297 --> 04:28:02,297 data availability. that is just you don't have any guarantees that 3926 04:28:02,297 --> 04:28:06,697 if you send someone a message, they will receive it. 3927 04:28:07,297 --> 04:28:08,381 That's kind of 3928 04:28:08,501 --> 04:28:14,101 intriguingly the opposite of if you use anything on chain, any message there, everyone 3929 04:28:14,101 --> 04:28:19,941 knows that everyone receives it, which is quite a very intriguing different 3930 04:28:19,941 --> 04:28:25,801 situation. That's exactly the bargain that the Nostr did with the is that 3931 04:28:25,801 --> 04:28:28,321 it gave up shared state 3932 04:28:28,325 --> 04:28:32,845 with good consensus and that's how it gets its decentralization and censorship 3933 04:28:32,845 --> 04:28:38,545 resistance. the cost of that is that there is no data availability 3934 04:28:38,545 --> 04:28:43,685 in the sense that there's not even a single unified view on NOSR from anywhere. 3935 04:28:44,445 --> 04:28:47,725 Right. And like you said, there is no guarantee of persistence either. 3936 04:28:48,790 --> 04:28:50,950 But that's the bargain with the devil that Noster did. 3937 04:28:51,570 --> 04:28:52,390 delivery because... 3938 04:28:55,530 --> 04:28:59,970 I mean, if the Noster protocol simply documented and enibbed saying for high value 3939 04:28:59,970 --> 04:29:05,890 messages that you want to be guaranteed to have data availability and guaranteed to 3940 04:29:05,890 --> 04:29:08,214 have persistence, use this Relay 3941 04:29:08,234 --> 04:29:13,754 Zero, which doesn't use WebSockets like every other relay, but instead simply 3942 04:29:13,754 --> 04:29:19,674 creates an inscription that then other nodes can read. 3943 04:29:20,374 --> 04:29:22,994 That's the Relay Zero kind of fallback. 3944 04:29:23,434 --> 04:29:27,074 people would, you know, high priority messages that need that data availability 3945 04:29:27,074 --> 04:29:28,158 persistence. would 3946 04:29:28,158 --> 04:29:33,578 say important message, you know, checkbox on, and it would go into Bitcoin 3947 04:29:33,578 --> 04:29:37,678 inscriptions, and then you would get what what you're not getting from NOSR today, 3948 04:29:37,818 --> 04:29:39,698 which is availability and persistence. 3949 04:29:40,958 --> 04:29:45,698 So on the unified, Nostr would have 3950 04:29:45,698 --> 04:29:48,102 like a very 3951 04:29:48,102 --> 04:29:52,502 nice use case of completely 3952 04:29:52,502 --> 04:29:57,882 sidestepping the whole problem we have with 3953 04:29:57,882 --> 04:30:02,462 domains and web servers and stuff like that. 3954 04:30:02,462 --> 04:30:08,046 And there is a possibility for it to used like 3955 04:30:08,226 --> 04:30:14,146 such a network that is an alternative to these JSON API 3956 04:30:14,146 --> 04:30:20,126 cores basically. instead of having an application where you 3957 04:30:20,126 --> 04:30:25,266 have a hard -coded domain port 3958 04:30:25,266 --> 04:30:27,746 in the 3959 04:30:27,990 --> 04:30:33,410 application. Everyone can see what it is and they can hunt down your server 3960 04:30:33,410 --> 04:30:39,230 and arrest you running a Chomany eCash 3961 04:30:39,230 --> 04:30:39,550 Mint. 3962 04:30:41,790 --> 04:30:47,470 Instead of you would have an amp up in the application and the 3963 04:30:47,470 --> 04:30:47,935 communication 3964 04:30:50,135 --> 04:30:56,015 The problem is that you run into this, maybe you 3965 04:30:56,015 --> 04:31:01,775 would not need store the data forever, would need to store it for a period of 3966 04:31:01,775 --> 04:31:07,535 time, you would need it to be available for proving things in 3967 04:31:07,535 --> 04:31:07,879 these 3968 04:31:08,019 --> 04:31:09,239 back and forth protocols. 3969 04:31:09,459 --> 04:31:11,939 But you don't really need it be stored forever. 3970 04:31:11,939 --> 04:31:16,819 If it's stored for a month by relays or whatever, that would be completely fine. 3971 04:31:17,179 --> 04:31:22,719 But you actually do need assurances of delivery and 3972 04:31:22,719 --> 04:31:27,823 provability. Because that would make a lot of 3973 04:31:28,643 --> 04:31:34,323 these off -chain scaling solutions be able to this for 3974 04:31:34,323 --> 04:31:36,543 communication, but I don't think it actually works. 3975 04:31:37,123 --> 04:31:43,023 And when you try to put this sort of communication on a blockchain, I think that just 3976 04:31:43,023 --> 04:31:47,723 doesn't scale unless the blockchain is pruning in its 3977 04:31:47,767 --> 04:31:49,807 nature, maybe not even then. 3978 04:31:49,887 --> 04:31:55,767 don't know. basically, don't see kind of it solving that 3979 04:31:55,767 --> 04:31:57,187 particular use case. 3980 04:31:57,387 --> 04:31:59,387 I don't see anything really solving that. 3981 04:31:59,607 --> 04:32:05,467 I think we need to find like a middle ground between static 3982 04:32:05,467 --> 04:32:07,711 web pages on blockchains 3983 04:32:07,711 --> 04:32:08,731 And I 3984 04:32:08,731 --> 04:32:19,371 think, 3985 04:32:22,051 --> 04:32:25,851 well thank you, I think you have a similar situation in Bitcoin. 3986 04:32:25,851 --> 04:32:27,551 And if you know when Bitcoin 3987 04:32:27,656 --> 04:32:32,056 Core starts, has to have a bunch of seed IP addresses to find peers. 3988 04:32:32,816 --> 04:32:38,296 This is what's missing from Nostr, is the ability to bootstrap using some external 3989 04:32:38,296 --> 04:32:44,056 system. And a perfect way to bootstrap would be to have some kind of 3990 04:32:44,056 --> 04:32:46,896 channel in inscriptions where you could just say, 3991 04:32:48,520 --> 04:32:54,420 if the public key also happens to have an inscription under it on 3992 04:32:54,420 --> 04:32:57,920 Bitcoin, that's where you can go to bootstrap, right? 3993 04:32:58,540 --> 04:33:03,160 And this is the bootstrapping semantics are not defined in NOSR, but if they were, then 3994 04:33:03,160 --> 04:33:07,544 after you bootstrap through Bitcoin inscriptions, you could then continue the protocol 3995 04:33:07,544 --> 04:33:12,764 by communicating whatever relays you have shared with all your peers later. 3996 04:33:13,624 --> 04:33:19,344 So this is similar to how Bitcoin has to have a list of 8 or 16 IP addresses 3997 04:33:19,344 --> 04:33:25,044 to give you the seeds, which is not specified in Nozter, but if it was 3998 04:33:25,044 --> 04:33:27,204 through Bitcoin, that would solve your 3999 04:33:27,488 --> 04:33:28,308 problem, I think. 4000 04:33:32,128 --> 04:33:35,208 I'm not sure, I will let others talk. 4001 04:33:38,048 --> 04:33:43,768 For you to host the data, we can run our own relays, but 4002 04:33:43,768 --> 04:33:47,432 the problem is that everyone has to connect to my relay 4003 04:33:47,432 --> 04:33:48,532 to see my messages. 4004 04:33:49,792 --> 04:33:55,432 And I think they will, like you said, pick up a relay that's 4005 04:33:55,432 --> 04:34:00,292 sent to relay zero that retransmit to other relays, for example. 4006 04:34:00,592 --> 04:34:03,012 don't know. But the problem with that is that... 4007 04:34:03,012 --> 04:34:06,452 has to be a well -known place that everybody knows how to get to. 4008 04:34:06,592 --> 04:34:07,376 It shouldn't have an IP 4009 04:34:07,376 --> 04:34:08,236 IP address, right? 4010 04:34:08,936 --> 04:34:14,196 It should be like an implicit shelling point, which my candidate for that is Bitcoin 4011 04:34:14,196 --> 04:34:19,276 Inscriptions. That's the Relay Zero is whenever you start your Noster, Relay or Noster 4012 04:34:19,276 --> 04:34:24,696 client, go there and see what this is like the meta Noster. 4013 04:34:24,956 --> 04:34:27,036 This is the, is for bootstrapping only, 4014 04:34:27,321 --> 04:34:29,861 right 4015 04:34:29,861 --> 04:34:35,661 yeah but that's just for the message 4016 04:34:35,661 --> 04:34:41,641 because the noster came is just for text messages and that's most 4017 04:34:41,641 --> 04:34:47,265 important and it's right about people are trying to do decentralized 4018 04:34:47,465 --> 04:34:52,325 communication protocols that cannot be censored like there's all these attempts to do 4019 04:34:52,325 --> 04:34:58,185 multi -stage coordination on Noster or Noster marketplaces where people instead of going 4020 04:34:58,185 --> 04:35:03,665 to Dark Web and being subjected to exit scams by guys running these, 4021 04:35:03,665 --> 04:35:07,065 you know, nodes on tour, you can just have a 4022 04:35:07,209 --> 04:35:11,049 noster marketplace that occurs spontaneously. 4023 04:35:11,989 --> 04:35:17,629 But what's missing is that little piece of coordination out of band, which is where do 4024 04:35:17,629 --> 04:35:21,369 you go to find the set of relays that this marketplace uses? 4025 04:35:22,609 --> 04:35:26,569 Yeah, not just that, not just that, because you need pro -proofs. 4026 04:35:26,569 --> 04:35:27,153 If you want to 4027 04:35:27,213 --> 04:35:31,833 do this peer -to -peer marketplace, or you want to do so many cash mints and stuff like 4028 04:35:31,833 --> 04:35:34,193 that, that is highly reputation -based. 4029 04:35:35,573 --> 04:35:40,353 And that is the main incentive not to cheat, You lose your reputation, you lose your 4030 04:35:40,353 --> 04:35:45,433 business. So you need fraud proofs, and for fraud proofs, you actually do need to make 4031 04:35:45,433 --> 04:35:47,013 sure that you can 4032 04:35:47,097 --> 04:35:52,557 prove either the existence of something at a given time or the absence 4033 04:35:52,557 --> 04:35:54,977 of a reply in a given time. 4034 04:35:55,557 --> 04:36:01,277 the NoSIR relay network right now absolutely doesn't work for that. 4035 04:36:02,097 --> 04:36:05,997 Well, because like you said, it's because NoSIR does not provide any guarantees that 4036 04:36:05,997 --> 04:36:06,977 your recipient will 4037 04:36:07,042 --> 04:36:07,982 get the message, right? 4038 04:36:08,862 --> 04:36:14,342 But there is a way to ensure that every recipient who wants to get important messages 4039 04:36:14,342 --> 04:36:19,502 gets those important messages, is that to hard code the behavior into every Nostr 4040 04:36:19,502 --> 04:36:25,282 client that says when you start up along with your usual list of relays that 4041 04:36:25,282 --> 04:36:26,862 are configurable, always 4042 04:36:26,986 --> 04:36:30,526 check relay zero, is, you know, Bitcoin inscriptions. 4043 04:36:31,726 --> 04:36:33,606 If Bitcoin inscription is always checked, 4044 04:36:34,886 --> 04:36:36,706 then the messages can get there, 4045 04:36:38,286 --> 04:36:43,066 Then those messages will have contain fraud proofs, etc., right, for marketplaces, but 4046 04:36:43,066 --> 04:36:44,526 at least they will get there. 4047 04:36:45,386 --> 04:36:46,906 But all those messages would 4048 04:36:46,930 --> 04:36:48,430 be public issue. 4049 04:36:48,650 --> 04:36:51,210 It's not a good way to do it. 4050 04:36:51,790 --> 04:36:55,570 No, they could be encrypted, Encrypted to the public key of the recipient. 4051 04:36:55,850 --> 04:37:00,030 Yeah, are by default and also the DMs are encrypted. 4052 04:37:00,450 --> 04:37:01,490 So that's not a problem. 4053 04:37:03,510 --> 04:37:06,190 Yeah, but you can see who sent your book. 4054 04:37:06,974 --> 04:37:12,574 The thing is, I don't want to bring up like shit coins, 4055 04:37:13,214 --> 04:37:13,874 I have to. 4056 04:37:15,534 --> 04:37:21,354 Oddscy is doing really, really good as substitute 4057 04:37:21,354 --> 04:37:24,834 for YouTube, because YouTube is a shit. 4058 04:37:26,998 --> 04:37:28,938 Yesterday I... It's a good thing, yes. 4059 04:37:30,618 --> 04:37:32,258 I don't know you remember whatever it is. 4060 04:37:32,378 --> 04:37:33,018 What was it called? 4061 04:37:33,538 --> 04:37:33,918 shit coin? 4062 04:37:35,258 --> 04:37:36,758 A library, I think. 4063 04:37:37,358 --> 04:37:38,158 No, library, yeah. 4064 04:37:38,258 --> 04:37:39,558 I remember that from back in the day. 4065 04:37:39,818 --> 04:37:42,078 Those people were in New Haven around the same time I was. 4066 04:37:43,018 --> 04:37:46,118 Yeah, the OC is really great. 4067 04:37:48,962 --> 04:37:52,842 The people there are still not censored. 4068 04:37:55,062 --> 04:38:00,402 Yesterday I uploaded a visual on YouTube called Out of Shadows. 4069 04:38:01,342 --> 04:38:06,162 YouTube just said it was conspiracy theory, 4070 04:38:06,707 --> 04:38:08,347 harmful of violence. 4071 04:38:09,327 --> 04:38:13,707 The document just said that you shouldn't trust the information that you are getting. 4072 04:38:14,567 --> 04:38:15,267 yeah. 4073 04:38:17,167 --> 04:38:23,127 And on one side, people have even this community of 3D printed guns 4074 04:38:23,127 --> 04:38:25,227 and people are sharing. 4075 04:38:25,427 --> 04:38:26,547 There's a guy called 4076 04:38:26,651 --> 04:38:28,831 3D printed general. 4077 04:38:29,891 --> 04:38:35,491 YouTube channel was completely banned just because he put a video 4078 04:38:35,491 --> 04:38:37,771 of the history of 3D printed guns. 4079 04:38:38,691 --> 04:38:41,331 And a lot of things that people are being banned from YouTube. 4080 04:38:42,431 --> 04:38:45,391 I'd say, I don't know how it works. 4081 04:38:45,851 --> 04:38:46,391 I have 4082 04:38:46,595 --> 04:38:51,035 to look it up, I think it's uncensorable. 4083 04:38:51,375 --> 04:38:54,555 I don't know, but the channels can be taken down. 4084 04:38:55,115 --> 04:38:59,635 The only thing that I know is that it's working and people are not getting banned, and 4085 04:38:59,635 --> 04:39:01,775 that's free of speech there. 4086 04:39:02,855 --> 04:39:06,475 And way it mostly is now is not working 4087 04:39:06,539 --> 04:39:11,039 the proper way because people are not incentivized to host videos, you know? 4088 04:39:13,139 --> 04:39:18,919 We did have, let me see, we lost Mar as 4089 04:39:18,919 --> 04:39:19,479 a speaker, 4090 04:39:20,859 --> 04:39:22,839 but maybe he will come back. 4091 04:39:26,483 --> 04:39:32,243 But yes, I think this topic is certainly of interest, like what will digital 4092 04:39:32,243 --> 04:39:37,503 scarcity be used for, and in particular, why is the 4093 04:39:37,503 --> 04:39:40,703 communication backbone of the internet so bad? 4094 04:39:40,703 --> 04:39:46,343 because it does feel very heavy -handed like 4095 04:39:46,428 --> 04:39:51,428 the YouTube seems to be very, I mean, 4096 04:39:51,628 --> 04:39:55,388 I'm sure there's an interesting flip side to it, which is just that they want to 4097 04:39:55,388 --> 04:39:56,948 protect the advertising dollars. 4098 04:39:57,108 --> 04:39:59,408 And so they don't want anything on there. 4099 04:39:59,508 --> 04:40:02,628 They want to discourage anything that's just too weird, you know? 4100 04:40:03,848 --> 04:40:06,368 Like I don't know if, does anyone want videos 4101 04:40:06,372 --> 04:40:08,852 of, like, people getting killed and stuff? 4102 04:40:09,372 --> 04:40:10,492 on YouTube? probably not. 4103 04:40:13,132 --> 04:40:14,712 So my guess is that that's part of it. 4104 04:40:14,712 --> 04:40:19,352 of Russians being killed, but not videos of Ukrainians being killed in the war. 4105 04:40:21,972 --> 04:40:25,212 Yeah, so that's obviously a double standard, but of course, 4106 04:40:28,256 --> 04:40:34,156 I think every time there's a war, people always move very quickly to boost all the 4107 04:40:34,156 --> 04:40:35,616 good news on their side. 4108 04:40:35,956 --> 04:40:37,896 you know what mean? 4109 04:40:38,416 --> 04:40:39,936 You don't want people to despair. 4110 04:40:40,796 --> 04:40:45,516 It's like you said, there's an added dynamic, but there's also the deep state dynamic. 4111 04:40:45,716 --> 04:40:46,056 So Twitter 4112 04:40:46,260 --> 04:40:50,200 is abandoning all the advertising revenue in favor of $8 a month. 4113 04:40:50,840 --> 04:40:54,740 And I think they're successfully transitioning from advertiser -driven revenue to the 4114 04:40:54,740 --> 04:41:00,640 subscription revenue. Once they do that, then they're immune from 4115 04:41:00,640 --> 04:41:06,204 pressure from advertisers, but they're still the deep state with all the 4116 04:41:06,204 --> 04:41:07,844 witch hunts and stuff. 4117 04:41:10,124 --> 04:41:16,024 Elon Musk was on the spaces, excusing himself for the ADL, the last 4118 04:41:16,024 --> 04:41:17,204 week, man. 4119 04:41:18,504 --> 04:41:24,344 They are everywhere, you know, and he just said about that, nice that 4120 04:41:24,344 --> 04:41:26,024 you approved the ad 4121 04:41:26,148 --> 04:41:27,628 every new year on Twitter. 4122 04:41:29,708 --> 04:41:35,368 Before Elon bought Twitter, after he bought Twitter, they released 4123 04:41:35,368 --> 04:41:41,348 these Twitter files, literally saying that CIA and all these are 4124 04:41:41,348 --> 04:41:46,093 very surprising. I it mean, it wasn't 4125 04:41:46,093 --> 04:41:49,093 I mean it wasn't literally surprising, but it was surprising 4126 04:41:49,093 --> 04:41:52,093 I mean it wasn't literally surprising, but it was surprising 4127 04:41:52,093 --> 04:41:55,093 Of course, but I just meant that it was surprising that it was so like explicit 4128 04:41:55,093 --> 04:41:58,093 Of course, but I just meant that it was surprising that it was so like explicit 4129 04:41:58,093 --> 04:42:01,093 Like there's emails where they're just like, here's a list of accounts we need taken care of 4130 04:42:01,093 --> 04:42:04,093 Like there's emails where they're just like, here's a list of accounts we need taken care of 4131 04:42:04,093 --> 04:42:07,093 And they're like, okay, we're on it 4132 04:42:07,093 --> 04:42:10,093 And they're like, okay, we're on it 4133 04:42:13,093 --> 04:42:16,093 Now we have David Bailey is here 4134 04:42:16,093 --> 04:42:19,093 Now we have David Bailey is here 4135 04:42:19,093 --> 04:42:24,913 magazine giving you some beef I don't know 4136 04:42:24,913 --> 04:42:30,853 maybe I should be asking you ha ha I don't know it's I hear it's 4137 04:42:30,853 --> 04:42:35,593 run by here to run badly I I think that's true news. 4138 04:42:35,713 --> 04:42:40,433 that's definitely true news was well -run when Vitalik was running it, right? 4139 04:42:40,433 --> 04:42:42,593 Vitalik was... yeah, bring back Vitalik 4140 04:42:45,113 --> 04:42:47,773 Vitalik is the biggest friend Bitcoin now 4141 04:42:48,973 --> 04:42:52,093 Vitalik is the big friend of Ordinal's in their 4 Bitcoin now, 4142 04:42:52,193 --> 04:42:58,073 you know. Well, you know Well, yeah, we were discussing earlier, if you 4143 04:42:58,073 --> 04:43:02,373 watch the recording, we talk about the article, yesterday's article, or whatever, 4144 04:43:02,513 --> 04:43:03,273 whatever day it was. 4145 04:43:03,373 --> 04:43:05,333 Well, I thought there was some interesting elements to it. 4146 04:43:05,333 --> 04:43:08,593 I thought there was other parts that made no sense to me, but I 4147 04:43:08,593 --> 04:43:13,913 I will say one of the nice things about having a platform is when 4148 04:43:13,913 --> 04:43:19,753 you let people call both ways, I feel like you get more credibility for the 4149 04:43:19,753 --> 04:43:20,753 platform in general. 4150 04:43:21,433 --> 04:43:25,433 I'm glad to have a diversity of thought and opinion there. 4151 04:43:29,553 --> 04:43:35,493 Yeah, I think I actually also I definitely think it's much better 4152 04:43:35,493 --> 04:43:39,093 to have long form articles 4153 04:43:40,523 --> 04:43:44,573 as critique of drivechain, rather than like tweets or whatever. 4154 04:43:44,813 --> 04:43:46,873 think that it's actually a lot better. 4155 04:43:47,413 --> 04:43:49,953 Yeah. Even though one was great. 4156 04:43:51,313 --> 04:43:55,593 But yeah, that's much better because I don't know. 4157 04:43:55,653 --> 04:43:57,993 just think that it's just like... 4158 04:43:57,993 --> 04:43:59,373 More substantive conversations. 4159 04:44:00,133 --> 04:44:01,073 actually kind of 4160 04:44:01,093 --> 04:44:05,733 feels like it has a direction or something. 4161 04:44:06,633 --> 04:44:07,053 Going somewhere. 4162 04:44:08,553 --> 04:44:13,273 There's also kind of like more of a sense that it's a finished thought because like a 4163 04:44:13,273 --> 04:44:17,293 tweet is always too little, so everyone knows that there's not enough context, when 4164 04:44:17,293 --> 04:44:17,533 it's like 4165 04:44:17,593 --> 04:44:20,133 someone has a long -form thing, 4166 04:44:22,113 --> 04:44:27,493 their reputation is kind of on the line where they say, this is the best I can do with 4167 04:44:27,493 --> 04:44:32,873 all the, I had as much space as I needed and I laid out my whole thing and this was the 4168 04:44:32,873 --> 04:44:33,453 best I can do. 4169 04:44:35,093 --> 04:44:38,093 Have you tried? It's possible to go to GPT-4 4170 04:44:38,093 --> 04:44:41,093 Have you tried? It's possible to go to GPT-4 4171 04:44:41,093 --> 04:44:44,093 and tell it to create a court where there is a pro and a con side and a judge 4172 04:44:44,093 --> 04:44:47,093 and tell it to create a court where there is a pro and a con side and a judge 4173 04:44:47,093 --> 04:44:50,093 and then you can stage an argument for and against any issue 4174 04:44:50,093 --> 04:44:53,093 and have the judge decide on the merits at the end 4175 04:44:53,093 --> 04:44:56,093 and GPT-4 will run the whole process for you 4176 04:44:56,093 --> 04:44:59,093 That's amazing 4177 04:44:59,093 --> 04:45:02,093 I was loving GPT-3 4178 04:45:02,093 --> 04:45:05,093 Everyone's been telling me how good GPT-4 is 4179 04:45:05,093 --> 04:45:08,093 So this is kind of like when you save a dessert 4180 04:45:08,093 --> 04:45:11,093 for a really long time 4181 04:45:11,093 --> 04:45:14,093 I've been trying to build it up 4182 04:45:14,093 --> 04:45:17,093 I'm trying to remember what was life like before GPT-4 4183 04:45:17,093 --> 04:45:20,093 Even though I still use GPT-3 4184 04:45:20,093 --> 04:45:23,093 I still haven't really used GPT-4 4185 04:45:23,093 --> 04:45:26,093 Peter Schiff's son said it was the greatest thing 4186 04:45:26,093 --> 04:45:29,093 You can go right now on GPT-4 and say 4187 04:45:29,093 --> 04:45:32,093 Please form a coherent argument 4188 04:45:32,093 --> 04:45:35,093 for why all criticism of drivechain is reducible to concern 4189 04:45:35,093 --> 04:45:38,093 trolling and misunderstanding of what it does 4190 04:45:38,093 --> 04:45:41,093 and it will go scour the web and it will summarize 4191 04:45:41,093 --> 04:45:44,093 the whole argument in one page point by point for you 4192 04:45:44,093 --> 04:45:47,093 We should do that 4193 04:45:47,093 --> 04:45:50,093 and then I'll send it over 4194 04:45:50,093 --> 04:45:53,093 David, that'll be new 4195 04:45:53,093 --> 04:45:56,093 He just said he likes both sides 4196 04:45:56,093 --> 04:45:59,093 That will be my new article 4197 04:45:59,093 --> 04:46:02,093 written completely by GPT-4 4198 04:46:02,093 --> 04:46:05,093 and my amazing prompt 4199 04:46:05,093 --> 04:46:08,093 is the seed of creativity 4200 04:46:08,093 --> 04:46:11,093 AI supports drivechains 4201 04:46:11,093 --> 04:46:14,093 The strangest thing is that you get the best answers 4202 04:46:14,093 --> 04:46:17,093 if you conclude every prompt that you make 4203 04:46:17,093 --> 04:46:20,093 by the following sentence 4204 04:46:20,093 --> 04:46:23,093 Take a deep breath and think it step by step 4205 04:46:23,093 --> 04:46:26,093 If you say take a deep breath 4206 04:46:26,093 --> 04:46:29,093 and think it out step by step carefully 4207 04:46:29,093 --> 04:46:32,093 for some reason that just drastically improves the quality of the output 4208 04:46:32,093 --> 04:46:35,093 I'll tell you the reason 4209 04:46:35,093 --> 04:46:38,093 This is me being an armchair psychologist 4210 04:46:38,093 --> 04:46:41,093 I think the implication is 4211 04:46:41,093 --> 04:46:44,093 obviously our brain has many different modes of thinking 4212 04:46:44,093 --> 04:46:47,093 but there must be a big edge 4213 04:46:47,093 --> 04:46:50,093 to some of the ones that involve not taking a deep breath 4214 04:46:50,093 --> 04:46:53,093 which is why they must work better in some cases 4215 04:46:53,093 --> 04:46:56,093 probably not a case where you want a written textual reply 4216 04:46:59,093 --> 04:47:02,093 but they must work in some cases that are online 4217 04:47:02,093 --> 04:47:05,093 where people go back and forth quickly 4218 04:47:05,093 --> 04:47:08,093 or something else is happening 4219 04:47:08,093 --> 04:47:11,093 like it's virtue signaling or it's flirting or something 4220 04:47:11,093 --> 04:47:14,093 and so that must automatically 4221 04:47:14,093 --> 04:47:17,093 discount all those 4222 04:47:17,093 --> 04:47:20,093 but it must be something 4223 04:47:20,093 --> 04:47:23,093 because otherwise it would be 4224 04:47:23,093 --> 04:47:26,093 it can't be the case that that always improves everything 4225 04:47:26,093 --> 04:47:29,093 because that doesn't really make any sense 4226 04:47:29,093 --> 04:47:32,093 it's already trying to do the best thing 4227 04:47:32,093 --> 04:47:35,093 so you must be cluing it in that you want a certain flavor of response 4228 04:47:35,093 --> 04:47:38,093 which is like a more rational flavor 4229 04:47:38,093 --> 04:47:41,093 Anyway, that's my theory 4230 04:47:41,093 --> 04:47:44,093 It's crazy how you can go and tell it to create personas 4231 04:47:44,093 --> 04:47:47,093 like you can actually formulate a demand 4232 04:47:47,093 --> 04:47:50,093 that it create a persona of a well-informed proponent 4233 04:47:50,093 --> 04:47:53,093 and well-informed opponent 4234 04:47:53,093 --> 04:47:56,093 and you can have them read all the cons and pros on the internet 4235 04:47:56,093 --> 04:47:59,093 for one side or the other 4236 04:47:59,093 --> 04:48:02,093 and once those personas have been fully created 4237 04:48:02,093 --> 04:48:05,093 and indoctrinated 4238 04:48:05,093 --> 04:48:08,093 then you can have them lay out their best arguments 4239 04:48:08,093 --> 04:48:11,093 and then have a third persona of an impartial judge 4240 04:48:11,093 --> 04:48:14,093 who will summarize both sides and render an opinion 4241 04:48:14,093 --> 04:48:17,093 and people have done that on political issues 4242 04:48:17,093 --> 04:48:20,093 but this drivechain 4243 04:48:20,093 --> 04:48:23,093 you can just basically go dump that into a paragraph-long prompt 4244 04:48:23,093 --> 04:48:26,093 and you will get some amazing output 4245 04:48:26,093 --> 04:48:29,093 And then inscribe on the blockchain 4246 04:48:29,093 --> 04:48:32,093 or will it be forever? 4247 04:48:32,093 --> 04:48:35,093 Inscribe it 4248 04:48:35,093 --> 04:48:38,093 Nice, I like that 4249 04:48:38,093 --> 04:48:41,093 Well, we should do it 4250 04:48:41,093 --> 04:48:44,093 That would be great 4251 04:48:44,093 --> 04:48:47,093 You need a plugin 4252 04:48:47,093 --> 04:48:50,093 Plugins are possible on GPT-4 4253 04:48:50,093 --> 04:48:53,093 So you need an inscription plugin 4254 04:48:53,093 --> 04:48:56,093 Inscription plugin 4255 04:48:56,093 --> 04:48:59,093 Yeah, that's good 4256 04:48:59,093 --> 04:49:02,093 You can just say, inscribe this answer 4257 04:49:02,093 --> 04:49:05,093 like you have shared this answer 4258 04:49:05,093 --> 04:49:08,093 That's not as catchy though, Alex 4259 04:49:08,093 --> 04:49:11,093 That's too wordy 4260 04:49:11,093 --> 04:49:14,093 Let's check GPT-4 to shorten that 4261 04:49:14,093 --> 04:49:17,093 Bit drive 4262 04:49:17,093 --> 04:49:20,093 Quick question for you, Paul 4263 04:49:20,093 --> 04:49:23,093 So, we have our panel next week 4264 04:49:23,093 --> 04:49:26,093 and we have a lot of questions 4265 04:49:26,093 --> 04:49:29,093 and we have a lot of questions 4266 04:49:29,093 --> 04:49:32,093 and we have a lot of questions 4267 04:49:32,093 --> 04:49:35,093 So, we have our panel next week 4268 04:49:35,093 --> 04:49:38,093 Curious if you 4269 04:49:38,093 --> 04:49:41,093 I haven't listened to the debate that you did with Peter 4270 04:49:41,093 --> 04:49:44,093 at 4271 04:49:44,093 --> 04:49:47,093 TabConf 4272 04:49:47,093 --> 04:49:50,093 TabConf 4273 04:49:50,093 --> 04:49:53,093 I'm going to before our session 4274 04:49:53,093 --> 04:49:56,093 but what do you think are 4275 04:49:56,093 --> 04:49:59,093 the most interesting 4276 04:49:59,093 --> 04:50:02,093 the most interesting questions to ask 4277 04:50:02,093 --> 04:50:05,093 Peter 4278 04:50:05,093 --> 04:50:08,093 like probe Peter's position 4279 04:50:08,093 --> 04:50:11,093 and after the past couple months 4280 04:50:11,093 --> 04:50:14,093 of you taking fire from all directions 4281 04:50:14,093 --> 04:50:17,093 what do you think are the most sensitive 4282 04:50:17,093 --> 04:50:20,093 questions for you to answer 4283 04:50:20,093 --> 04:50:23,093 Well, I mean, I asked 4284 04:50:23,093 --> 04:50:26,093 Peter's belief is that if miners are persuaded to do anything 4285 04:50:26,093 --> 04:50:29,093 it's a block size increase 4286 04:50:29,093 --> 04:50:32,093 so I asked him, is buying an ASIC 4287 04:50:32,093 --> 04:50:35,093 a block size increase 4288 04:50:35,093 --> 04:50:38,093 but he didn't answer it 4289 04:50:38,093 --> 04:50:41,093 the audience had sort of moved on 4290 04:50:41,093 --> 04:50:44,093 even though that sounds ridiculous 4291 04:50:44,093 --> 04:50:47,093 that's certainly, I was thinking 4292 04:50:47,093 --> 04:50:50,093 how far does he really take this idea 4293 04:50:50,093 --> 04:50:53,093 that anything that a miner is persuaded to do 4294 04:50:53,093 --> 04:50:56,093 to force a miner $50 to like dance or something 4295 04:50:56,093 --> 04:50:59,093 is that a block size increase 4296 04:50:59,093 --> 04:51:02,093 so I don't know 4297 04:51:02,093 --> 04:51:05,093 he also, one thing that he should be 4298 04:51:05,093 --> 04:51:08,093 sort of asked about is 4299 04:51:08,093 --> 04:51:11,093 we paid him to write this written critique 4300 04:51:11,093 --> 04:51:14,093 of Drivechain but he still has not produced it 4301 04:51:14,093 --> 04:51:17,093 so this was like many months ago 4302 04:51:17,093 --> 04:51:20,093 three, four months ago, I don't know exactly how long 4303 04:51:20,093 --> 04:51:23,093 and he has all this time 4304 04:51:23,093 --> 04:51:26,093 to do all this other stuff and he's been saying 4305 04:51:26,093 --> 04:51:29,093 he says like in Luke's pull request, this is a terrible idea 4306 04:51:29,093 --> 04:51:32,093 and he's tweeted that merge mine sidechains are Greg Maxwell's 4307 04:51:32,093 --> 04:51:35,093 biggest mistake and so he's tweeted 4308 04:51:35,093 --> 04:51:38,093 for years about this idea being terrible 4309 04:51:38,093 --> 04:51:41,093 but he's not producing any of this 4310 04:51:41,093 --> 04:51:44,093 and in fact, not only has he not produced the report 4311 04:51:44,093 --> 04:51:47,093 but he started actually tweeting in public 4312 04:51:47,093 --> 04:51:50,093 before the debate that he didn't really know the idea 4313 04:51:50,093 --> 04:51:53,093 and he would have to ask me some questions 4314 04:51:53,093 --> 04:51:56,093 live on stage in order to understand the idea 4315 04:51:56,093 --> 04:51:59,093 so if you watch the debate, you see that 4316 04:51:59,093 --> 04:52:02,093 Tidwell is a little confused 4317 04:52:02,093 --> 04:52:05,093 because what he thinks Peter is doing 4318 04:52:05,093 --> 04:52:08,093 he thinks that Peter is asking me some kind of like Socratic 4319 04:52:08,093 --> 04:52:11,093 question to like 4320 04:52:11,093 --> 04:52:14,093 tee me up or some kind of haymaker or whatever as Tidwell put it 4321 04:52:14,093 --> 04:52:17,093 but really he was just asking me about the protocol 4322 04:52:17,093 --> 04:52:20,093 which also made it kind of bizarre for me because 4323 04:52:20,093 --> 04:52:23,093 I was like now I have to play two roles 4324 04:52:23,093 --> 04:52:26,093 one is I have to like helpfully explain the idea 4325 04:52:26,093 --> 04:52:29,093 to him in addition to doing like a debate 4326 04:52:29,093 --> 04:52:32,093 opponent type thing and then Tidwell said that he didn't 4327 04:52:32,093 --> 04:52:35,093 he didn't realize that 4328 04:52:35,093 --> 04:52:38,093 he hadn't seen those tweets until after the debate and he didn't 4329 04:52:38,093 --> 04:52:41,093 realize that Peter had basically 4330 04:52:41,093 --> 04:52:44,093 become unprepared 4331 04:52:44,093 --> 04:52:47,093 so all of these are kind of mysterious constellations of things 4332 04:52:47,093 --> 04:52:50,093 so like 4333 04:52:50,093 --> 04:52:53,093 this idea of because that was all he could end up saying 4334 04:52:53,093 --> 04:52:56,093 was that it was a block size increase 4335 04:52:56,093 --> 04:52:59,093 but it's not a block size increase at all 4336 04:52:59,093 --> 04:53:02,093 the only thing that's a block size increase is what our layer one node 4337 04:53:02,093 --> 04:53:05,093 is required to do in order to 4338 04:53:05,093 --> 04:53:08,093 measure confirmations 4339 04:53:08,093 --> 04:53:11,093 Peter Todd says that and you can see how bizarre 4340 04:53:11,093 --> 04:53:14,093 I find it when I have to even ask him a question 4341 04:53:14,093 --> 04:53:17,093 that is like is buying an ASIC 4342 04:53:17,093 --> 04:53:20,093 a block size increase 4343 04:53:20,093 --> 04:53:23,093 so and then he's also maybe complained about like 4344 04:53:23,093 --> 04:53:26,093 his time he's like it might take miners 4345 04:53:26,093 --> 04:53:29,093 some time to set up the sidechains or something 4346 04:53:29,093 --> 04:53:32,093 but it's kind of like it's really absurd 4347 04:53:32,093 --> 04:53:35,093 you know because the miners do all kinds of things 4348 04:53:35,093 --> 04:53:38,093 all the time 4349 04:53:38,093 --> 04:53:41,093 like it takes them all kinds of time to do everything 4350 04:53:41,093 --> 04:53:44,093 when they plug in all the miners 4351 04:53:44,093 --> 04:53:47,093 when they research a new cooling system 4352 04:53:47,093 --> 04:53:50,093 so it's really this bizarre paternalism 4353 04:53:50,093 --> 04:53:53,093 on the part of the miners 4354 04:53:53,093 --> 04:53:56,093 Peter's view is that we should take a big interest in 4355 04:53:56,093 --> 04:53:59,093 what miners do all the time 4356 04:53:59,093 --> 04:54:02,093 as for myself 4357 04:54:02,093 --> 04:54:05,093 I mean I think the idea is 4358 04:54:05,093 --> 04:54:08,093 has enormous potential and is basically 4359 04:54:08,093 --> 04:54:11,093 harmless and that's just my point of view 4360 04:54:11,093 --> 04:54:14,093 I think probably I was too 4361 04:54:14,093 --> 04:54:17,093 polite in advocating for it 4362 04:54:17,093 --> 04:54:20,093 and I just kind of shrug people critique it 4363 04:54:20,093 --> 04:54:23,093 and I would say some people say this some people say that 4364 04:54:23,093 --> 04:54:26,093 even though the critiques don't make any sense 4365 04:54:26,093 --> 04:54:29,093 I don't know what I would be asked 4366 04:54:29,093 --> 04:54:32,093 what would I be asked? 4367 04:54:32,093 --> 04:54:35,093 maybe someone here can suggest something 4368 04:54:35,093 --> 04:54:38,093 one topic I know I want to drill into 4369 04:54:38,093 --> 04:54:41,093 is I want to go into the most controversial 4370 04:54:41,093 --> 04:54:44,093 part of the proposal 4371 04:54:44,093 --> 04:54:47,093 the conversation in general 4372 04:54:47,093 --> 04:54:50,093 which is activation and 4373 04:54:50,093 --> 04:54:53,093 miner activated soft forks 4374 04:54:53,093 --> 04:54:56,093 that is the most controversial part 4375 04:54:56,093 --> 04:54:59,093 it doesn't really have anything to do with drivechain specifically 4376 04:54:59,093 --> 04:55:02,093 it's more just about our defective 4377 04:55:02,093 --> 04:55:05,093 culture after all these years 4378 04:55:05,093 --> 04:55:08,093 is unable to regard 4379 04:55:08,093 --> 04:55:11,093 like progress 4380 04:55:11,093 --> 04:55:14,093 or even just 4381 04:55:14,093 --> 04:55:17,093 it's unable to 4382 04:55:17,093 --> 04:55:20,093 we have this complacency that I think is a huge mistake 4383 04:55:20,093 --> 04:55:23,093 we just think everyone thinks the current version of bitcoin core 4384 04:55:23,093 --> 04:55:26,093 is perfect 4385 04:55:26,093 --> 04:55:29,093 and I think that's a huge risk 4386 04:55:29,093 --> 04:55:32,093 yeah and it's like there's no 4387 04:55:32,093 --> 04:55:35,093 there's no 4388 04:55:35,093 --> 04:55:38,093 process for advancing things 4389 04:55:38,093 --> 04:55:41,093 and so when you just take the only process 4390 04:55:41,093 --> 04:55:44,093 that's known and pursue it 4391 04:55:44,093 --> 04:55:47,093 the critique and attack is well 4392 04:55:47,093 --> 04:55:50,093 how dare you follow this process 4393 04:55:50,093 --> 04:55:53,093 it's harder to even follow 4394 04:55:53,093 --> 04:55:56,093 I mean it was very disappointing that Luke put out the pull request 4395 04:55:56,093 --> 04:55:59,093 and he said it was a draft in the title 4396 04:55:59,093 --> 04:56:02,093 which is the proper thing to say and he had no activation logic in it at all 4397 04:56:02,093 --> 04:56:05,093 and in it he said he only wanted 4398 04:56:05,093 --> 04:56:08,093 people to comment 4399 04:56:08,093 --> 04:56:11,093 he said it very explicitly 4400 04:56:11,093 --> 04:56:14,093 that he only wanted people to comment on the approach he was using 4401 04:56:14,093 --> 04:56:17,093 and not on whether or not the idea was desirable 4402 04:56:18,093 --> 04:56:21,093 he made it crystal clear 4403 04:56:21,093 --> 04:56:24,093 but then that pull request was immediately overrun 4404 04:56:24,093 --> 04:56:27,093 by basically vandalism 4405 04:56:27,093 --> 04:56:30,093 but more than that very few people 4406 04:56:30,093 --> 04:56:33,093 participated in 4407 04:56:33,093 --> 04:56:36,093 reviewing it honestly which is even worse 4408 04:56:36,093 --> 04:56:39,093 so what it speaks to is basically 4409 04:56:39,093 --> 04:56:42,093 kind of a corruption and a hypocrisy 4410 04:56:42,093 --> 04:56:45,093 in the process which is kind of like 4411 04:56:45,093 --> 04:56:48,093 partially working 4412 04:56:48,093 --> 04:56:51,093 it just speaks to basically that 4413 04:56:51,093 --> 04:56:54,093 there is the unwritten rules or whatever 4414 04:56:54,093 --> 04:56:57,093 and that would seem to indicate 4415 04:56:57,093 --> 04:57:00,093 that there's plenty of room for 4416 04:57:00,093 --> 04:57:03,093 people involved in the process to advance their own 4417 04:57:03,093 --> 04:57:06,093 agenda at the expense of Bitcoin 4418 04:57:10,093 --> 04:57:13,093 by the way what I saw in the pull request 4419 04:57:13,093 --> 04:57:16,093 was that it is using 4420 04:57:16,093 --> 04:57:19,093 or trying to use the 4421 04:57:19,093 --> 04:57:22,093 UTXO database 4422 04:57:22,093 --> 04:57:25,093 to hold the drivechain databases 4423 04:57:25,093 --> 04:57:28,093 so that it does not add additional 4424 04:57:28,093 --> 04:57:31,093 databases to the transaction validation context 4425 04:57:31,093 --> 04:57:34,093 was that something like that going on? 4426 04:57:34,093 --> 04:57:37,093 yes that's correct there's like a kind of 4427 04:57:37,093 --> 04:57:40,093 different index there's like a negative index of some kind 4428 04:57:43,093 --> 04:57:46,093 and that's something that Luke 4429 04:57:46,093 --> 04:57:49,093 did this 4430 04:57:49,093 --> 04:57:52,093 yeah he came up with that 4431 04:57:52,093 --> 04:57:55,093 I mean he would certainly know much better than I 4432 04:57:55,093 --> 04:57:58,093 he probably thought there would be some combination of 4433 04:57:58,093 --> 04:58:01,093 easier to review, easier to understand 4434 04:58:01,093 --> 04:58:04,093 yeah I mean it was one technical criticism 4435 04:58:04,093 --> 04:58:07,093 I met 4436 04:58:07,093 --> 04:58:10,093 in regards to the drivechain is that 4437 04:58:10,093 --> 04:58:13,093 it wants the transaction validation context 4438 04:58:13,093 --> 04:58:16,093 and we might not want to do that 4439 04:58:16,093 --> 04:58:19,093 and when I looked at the code that Luke was writing 4440 04:58:19,093 --> 04:58:22,093 that's what occurred to me that this seems to be a different approach 4441 04:58:22,093 --> 04:58:25,093 and I was however not sure when this happened 4442 04:58:25,093 --> 04:58:28,093 and where this happened first and that's why I was 4443 04:58:28,093 --> 04:58:31,093 so wait can you re-explain that 4444 04:58:31,093 --> 04:58:34,093 what exactly is the critique? 4445 04:58:34,093 --> 04:58:37,093 so the critique was that you are adding 4446 04:58:37,093 --> 04:58:40,093 additional databases to the transaction validation context 4447 04:58:40,093 --> 04:58:43,093 this is a very developer view of things 4448 04:58:43,093 --> 04:58:46,093 like the users don't 4449 04:58:46,093 --> 04:58:49,093 understand this probably by running a node 4450 04:58:49,093 --> 04:58:52,093 but for developers the context 4451 04:58:52,093 --> 04:58:55,093 when you call a function or whatever the size of that context 4452 04:58:55,093 --> 04:58:58,093 does matter 4453 04:58:58,093 --> 04:59:01,093 and in the maintainability and the possible 4454 04:59:01,093 --> 04:59:04,093 errors in the complexity of the code 4455 04:59:04,093 --> 04:59:07,093 in the scope of the changes that need to be made 4456 04:59:07,093 --> 04:59:10,093 so if you can keep that 4457 04:59:10,093 --> 04:59:13,093 small and minimal 4458 04:59:13,093 --> 04:59:16,093 and every alternative to drivechain 4459 04:59:16,093 --> 04:59:19,093 that would use covenants 4460 04:59:19,093 --> 04:59:22,093 or covenant like primitives to do this 4461 04:59:22,093 --> 04:59:25,093 without explicit databases 4462 04:59:24,435 --> 04:59:34,875 because there are ways to less efficiently do things like with something like the Merkleizer the things proposal or something like that 4463 04:59:34,875 --> 04:59:41,314 you just basically implement a hash rate as scroll counter and the walking back and forth logic in the script 4464 04:59:41,314 --> 04:59:48,275 and you can do the blind merge mining with the covenants and so we basically could do this in a very different way 4465 04:59:48,314 --> 04:59:55,195 and those would have this advantage that they are not actually adding additional databases to the transaction validation context 4466 04:59:55,195 --> 05:00:01,795 and you basically just have the UTXO set as a database for evaluating the transactions in a block 4467 05:00:02,315 --> 05:00:17,194 and from what I saw Luke actually rewrote the BIP300 logic in a way that he did something very similar some clever hack where he actually put the data in the same database 4468 05:00:19,275 --> 05:00:32,915 yes but it is a very miner point I mean like I think I mean I don't know really what to say like it's kind of like if you had an Excel spreadsheet and you had instead of adding two new tabs 4469 05:00:32,915 --> 05:00:39,115 he could keep it all in the first tab or something like that you know so it's not really like a 4470 05:00:40,115 --> 05:00:45,714 yeah it's totally a core developer fixation or whatever 4471 05:00:46,714 --> 05:00:55,714 yeah but it wasn't like a technical critique like it's like a you know it's like you build a car and then you something under the hood is moved somewhere else 4472 05:00:57,714 --> 05:01:07,714 also under the hood but that is the type of productive thing that should happen whenever anyone 4473 05:01:07,714 --> 05:01:21,714 you know tries to contribute to Bitcoin Core so that would be like a good thing but very few people even commented on any of that you know like that was what Luke asked for comments about but 4474 05:01:23,714 --> 05:01:33,714 so what do you make of this argument of BIP300 makes miners custodians 4475 05:01:34,714 --> 05:01:45,714 I don't make really anything of it because the miners are already custodians of everything and the only way to change that is to remove proof of work from Bitcoin 4476 05:01:46,714 --> 05:02:08,714 so the it's true that the miners have slightly more what you might call well I don't even really believe that so because the idea is the miners have a narrow task which is to copy paste this hash from the sidechain to L1 once every three months 4477 05:02:09,714 --> 05:02:29,714 and they really have the choice between like conforming to that or rejecting that and trying to steal all the coins for themselves but that's the very same choice that they face when they support the lightning network or when they support regular L1 Bitcoin UTXO moving around 4478 05:02:30,714 --> 05:02:50,714 so I think it also doesn't matter the logic of the custodian question is the same as the terrible logic of caring about what other people think third parties think about the Bitcoin network such as the senator type thing which I think is just terrible 4479 05:02:51,714 --> 05:03:09,714 it's a very low quality idea you know because if you care about if you if you have like if we split Bitcoin into like compliant a hash that was like compliant with let's say the government of Russia or something and one that was just independent 4480 05:03:10,714 --> 05:03:23,714 the compliant it once it's compliant it's all the proof of work is useless because it's just saying it's all coming from whatever it is Washington DC or whatever if that makes any sense 4481 05:03:23,714 --> 05:03:25,714 yep 4482 05:03:35,218 --> 05:03:40,938 who people who have some kind of opinion on what people should do. 4483 05:03:41,258 --> 05:03:45,978 my view is that hashers don't even have any agency and the mining pools don't have any 4484 05:03:45,978 --> 05:03:49,718 agency either so leaving the question of whether or they should support drivechain is 4485 05:03:49,718 --> 05:03:50,318 kind of like 4486 05:03:51,003 --> 05:03:54,143 or whether or not they should support any Drivechain, the one that has a lot of coins 4487 05:03:54,143 --> 05:03:55,563 in it or steal from it. 4488 05:03:56,063 --> 05:04:01,743 All of this is just the mining pools will do whatever they think the hashers want them 4489 05:04:01,743 --> 05:04:05,403 to do because the hashers can switch mining pools at the drop of a hat 4490 05:04:05,548 --> 05:04:08,048 very easily and cheaply. 4491 05:04:09,068 --> 05:04:11,328 So the pools have to do what they think their clients do. 4492 05:04:11,828 --> 05:04:12,608 don't want them to do. 4493 05:04:12,948 --> 05:04:14,388 So the pools really have no agency. 4494 05:04:14,988 --> 05:04:16,808 They don't have any ability to like decide. 4495 05:04:17,008 --> 05:04:20,688 So they're not really custodians of anything because they can't, they're not, they 4496 05:04:21,714 --> 05:04:23,714 they temporarily run the show 4497 05:04:23,714 --> 05:04:24,714 is this 4498 05:04:24,714 --> 05:04:43,714 it's kind of like you said something like if you have you had a show if you were like whoever it is let's say you're Bill Maher or something in the in an instant the security guards are running Bill Maher show like in any given point in time but you know if you wanted to fire the security guards and replace 4499 05:04:44,714 --> 05:05:02,714 so how much agency does anyone really have and the hashes themselves they must do because of the difficulty adjustments they if they're not profitable if they're not in the upper half in terms of profitability they are fired and so they also have no agency so the whole idea about 4500 05:05:03,714 --> 05:05:16,714 I don't know you know the drivechain is a very simple offer to miners it offers them lots and lots and lots of fees in return it basically asks that they copy paste a hash 4501 05:05:17,714 --> 05:05:32,714 it's not really they they cannot do that but if they don't then they you know that's no different than just if they decide to stop supporting the lightning network or something moon settler yes hello 4502 05:05:32,714 --> 05:06:01,714 yeah it did it did occur to me when I read that article from the miners that they basically screwed the pooch if they have to worry about that already so they are overexposed oversized and positioned themselves badly jurisdictionally if that is a big concern but I didn't want to like really get into that with them 4503 05:06:03,714 --> 05:06:29,714 it's a very awkward thing to discuss I think would be a very good thing though if we had miner revenues that they wouldn't touch that would decentralize mining like this we mentioned before even though we think this would be very small but the Zcash drivechain if those were revenues that some kind of like KYC heavy miner if they couldn't touch those then that would actually be good because it would just melt that pool down 4504 05:06:30,714 --> 05:06:54,714 yeah and obviously they don't want that so they will argue about that as I mentioned that they don't actually want other miners to be more profitable and what I wanted to ask earlier from you is is it really true that the miners the hashers or the AC corners can just switch pools in this context like so what is going on in the United States 4505 05:06:55,714 --> 05:07:21,714 I like to call that thing Uncle Sodom for obvious reasons so I think they have this tendency where if ever 51% of the hash rate would be on American soil at one time they would just say that they now own the Bitcoin network and silly stuff like that it's just the nature of the beast 4506 05:07:22,714 --> 05:07:46,714 and in this case they can easily so if publicly traded miners are the majority of the hash there they can easily just mandate that they have to use offer compliant pools or something like that they can just make an executive order or whatever other regulation they can also try to use various subsidy tactics, tax exemptions or whatever for compliant miners 4507 05:07:46,714 --> 05:08:15,715 as you already know if that is economically detrimental then all it does is increase the ROI of non-compliant mining which means that if you are an enterprising person and you start mining in a different jurisdiction you will eventually be able to outcompete the other miners who will not only start to lose on a relative basis but because of the difficulty adjustment they will eventually go compliant 4508 05:08:16,715 --> 05:08:45,715 yeah in the ideal scenario where they leave money on the table it is if the government subsidy is significant enough for the opposite to happen for the hash rate to grow then that is very very bad for Bitcoin and I'm afraid it would cost almost nothing for the budget of the United States it would be like a joke so it's very weird for me when people boast about how nobody can do anything about Bitcoin 4509 05:08:46,715 --> 05:09:14,715 good question though I mean so like if it doesn't cost anything then what's really happening is not because remember the main bad thing that the miners would do would be to censor transactions so if the somehow the government is paying them more then what they're really doing is some kind of like complicated outbidding of the they're really like doing like an ordinals inscription thing they're outbidding the block but they're doing us the favor of not of not broadcasting their thing so it's kind of weirdly 4510 05:09:14,715 --> 05:09:34,715 but again they have to can only keep that up for as long as the people are unable to outbid them in terms of fees and it's only suppressed until the US government stops bribing them to not include these transactions and then all the transactions become up for grabs immediately 4511 05:09:34,715 --> 05:10:00,715 but let me ask answer your first question about how easy it is to switch pools which is to say it's very easy and they even admit that in article and on Twitter afterwards but we should make it even easier so one thing that I have been tinkering with recently is a piece of software that every like it's a plausible piece of software 4512 05:10:00,715 --> 05:10:25,715 where every single the goal would be to have every single miner run this software which is kind of like this big I mentioned it to you at the beginning Moon Settler what it does is it it's what it does is it organized it keeps track of who's in what pool 4513 05:10:30,715 --> 05:10:55,715 Oh can you guys hear me or I am frozen I can hear you I think Paul's Paul went out yeah I wanted to ask him that since he got his new phone did this Twitter got better but looks like not by much 4514 05:10:56,715 --> 05:11:05,715 this is big mining interfering in this Twitter space right now they're they're they're they're censoring and silencing Paul 4515 05:11:05,715 --> 05:11:34,715 you know I I will say like you know first off talking about anything mining is a little bit of a sensitive topic for me because a lot of miners are customers of mine that I do not want to I do not want to piss off my actual my actual customers and I also think you know in terms of selling drivechains and and advocating for it it is not going to be well received by miners 4516 05:11:35,715 --> 05:12:02,715 to say kind of like hey miners have gotten too big and really y'all need to be disrupted I think that that's going to be a sales pitch but that being said I do think it's true and I think that like if if let's just say hypothetically like Bitcoin mining was made illegal everywhere 4517 05:12:02,715 --> 05:12:31,715 I was like I started thinking this through the other day like what would happen and I honestly think that if we could get Bitcoin mining banned in every country Bitcoin would become much more robust like much stronger because the network wouldn't shut down you just drive all the activity underground on the mining side and from an end user perspective it's not like miners improve the user experience of Bitcoin 4518 05:12:32,715 --> 05:13:01,715 so the hash rate would just basically flow to the people that are best at hiding their activity which is kind of what we want like like compliant Bitcoin mining is really you know like quote legal Bitcoin mining is really a subsidy to those that do their mining out in public like out they do it out in where everyone knows what they're doing because that's the whole point of being compliant is that the 4519 05:13:01,715 --> 05:13:30,715 you don't have to worry about the authorities because you don't have to worry about the authorities you don't build that into your business model well one day we're gonna have to worry about the authorities one day Bitcoin mining is not going to be compliant when the government turns hostile against Bitcoin truly so like why wouldn't we want to start incentivizing the behavior of miners exactly what Paul was just saying it's like okay if there's all this extra revenue to be generated by 4520 05:13:30,715 --> 05:13:37,715 you know hiding your activity you're gonna get a lot more miners hiding their activity 4521 05:13:41,198 --> 05:13:46,758 so the only counter argument could be it is like 4522 05:13:46,758 --> 05:13:52,638 objectively not a nice thing and the very fiat thing to like change the rules 4523 05:13:52,638 --> 05:13:54,258 after people made their 4524 05:13:54,293 --> 05:13:56,373 business plans and investments, right? 4525 05:13:56,713 --> 05:14:01,793 to change the rules and change their profitability after they committed financially, 4526 05:14:01,793 --> 05:14:04,323 that's kind of like an asshole move. 4527 05:14:05,293 --> 05:14:10,493 I'm not overly sensitive to plight of US 4528 05:14:10,649 --> 05:14:12,189 miners, I have to say. 4529 05:14:13,669 --> 05:14:15,149 Yeah, it's definitely an asshole move. 4530 05:14:15,289 --> 05:14:20,089 I hear that and that's why miners also would not want to hear that message. 4531 05:14:20,349 --> 05:14:26,149 like, know, think we've, you know, it's 4532 05:14:26,149 --> 05:14:26,969 beleaguered point 4533 05:14:27,004 --> 05:14:29,484 that like home mining is not profitable. 4534 05:14:32,324 --> 05:14:35,364 And like you have to have like economies of scale. 4535 05:14:35,964 --> 05:14:40,344 like if Bitcoin mining, like nodes don't suffer from that same problem. 4536 05:14:40,464 --> 05:14:41,544 Anyone can run a node. 4537 05:14:41,724 --> 05:14:43,359 And like that's the value prop of 4538 05:14:43,399 --> 05:14:49,099 a node. what if by making 4539 05:14:49,099 --> 05:14:54,919 Bitcoin mining something that is 4540 05:14:54,919 --> 05:14:59,715 underground, you really return back to a dynamic where 4541 05:15:00,715 --> 05:15:20,715 the only kind of scale you can mine at is like from your home you know like now like now there's so few less institutional scale mining facilities that it actually can be profitable to mine at home I don't know I don't know just a thought 4542 05:15:20,715 --> 05:15:49,715 yeah sorry guys I got interrupted yet again by this crazy app that continues to crash but I was trying to say it's one software that everyone runs and then it it checks it can check for censored transactions and blame a pool so it's like a pool hopper software and since it's easy to see if a transaction is censored because if you if you've heard about a transaction for like 20 minutes 4543 05:15:51,715 --> 05:16:16,715 and it should have been in the made it into the blockchain you know if it had the highest fee but it didn't it misses like twice in a row or something then you can be pretty sure that something's sneaky going on so it can then ban they can figure out which pool is responsible and just everyone just disconnects from that pool 4544 05:16:16,715 --> 05:16:45,715 they join another pool and then you just have it so that this can keep happening forever and then as I mentioned you Moose Adler it's like if everyone ends up in one pool it just has everyone flip a coin or choose a random number and then it just splits them in randomly into new pools and software would be able to also create a new pool from scratch so it would also be able to do that so it'll be automated 4545 05:16:47,715 --> 05:17:07,715 and that is why the important thing with the pools is just how easy it is to switch and that can be made very very very easy the thing is we don't even really need to do any of that though because it's already so easy to do that I think the miners are already on a very short leash they have never when has any transaction really been censored 4546 05:17:07,715 --> 05:17:36,715 and when has there's when have have there been like you know reorganizations so that people can double spend like none of this stuff actually happens so so already they're on a very very very short leash and already it's very easy to switch pools I think it's interesting how stable the hash rate distribution is you know what I mean if you check it on one day you come back a month later it's still like foundry and pool whatever it's still Luxor with 3% 4547 05:17:37,795 --> 05:17:40,395 or something. So I find that to be kind of interesting. 4548 05:17:41,235 --> 05:17:44,495 But I can only assume that just because everyone's happy with where they are, and 4549 05:17:44,495 --> 05:17:46,975 there's nothing to disturb this equilibrium. 4550 05:17:48,015 --> 05:17:53,615 My theory about that, why we did not see like real campaigns 4551 05:17:53,615 --> 05:17:54,975 and stuff like 4552 05:17:55,048 --> 05:18:00,768 believe it's a big part that there is a huge coordination difficulty 4553 05:18:00,768 --> 05:18:05,508 that is basically unsolved for any such thing to happen. 4554 05:18:06,528 --> 05:18:12,348 the problem with that is actually reorg markets that solve this coordination 4555 05:18:12,381 --> 05:18:17,641 difficulty would cost basically almost nothing to set up. 4556 05:18:17,941 --> 05:18:23,581 when people start doing silly things where they try to build up 4557 05:18:23,581 --> 05:18:29,341 marketplaces for transactions and transaction acceleration outside the mempool, 4558 05:18:29,715 --> 05:18:48,715 they actually like basically are laying the foundations for for such a thing to happen and I don't see it not only I don't see it an unsolvable problem but I see it something that might actually just solve itself for those that want to pay for reorgs for whatever reason 4559 05:18:48,715 --> 05:19:03,715 and a lot of people can opportunistically jump on it by basically submitting double spend transactions to this mempool alternative and when there is a profitable set then it is offered to miners or any such thing 4560 05:19:03,715 --> 05:19:22,715 I kind of think this could emerge unless the mempool is so good that nobody even thinks about using alternatives I think that's kind of the direction that Bitcoin should go but it's not a popular idea right now for some reason 4561 05:19:25,821 --> 05:19:31,181 hey not to uh not to interrupt at all but Satoshi and Joyer did you get a 4562 05:19:31,181 --> 05:19:35,501 taproot wizard what is going on here 4563 05:19:39,381 --> 05:19:48,380 yeah he's out I guess he's not he's got a little icon look at that dude he got one damn dude 4564 05:19:48,540 --> 05:19:56,141 Udi what the fuck investor and Udi's thing I can't fucking get uh um I think I think my mic 4565 05:19:56,141 --> 05:20:03,580 is on oh I hear you did you get a taproot wizard yeah I just um just uh got one earlier today 4566 05:20:03,580 --> 05:20:08,620 really happy about that I think that the taproot wizards has been a monumental shift of like 4567 05:20:08,620 --> 05:20:13,740 Bitcoin culture brought a lot of uh like other people from other ecosystems back to Bitcoin and 4568 05:20:13,740 --> 05:20:18,381 more eyes on Bitcoin um I mean that's how I learned about ordinals and inscriptions obviously 4569 05:20:18,381 --> 05:20:24,141 I've been a Bitcoinist very very early on but uh I I think it's a good movement in general 4570 05:20:24,141 --> 05:20:30,941 you know I think that there's been a lot of like uh benefits to um the taproot wizards movement 4571 05:20:32,861 --> 05:20:38,700 well dude solid flex solid flex very jelly belly thank you thank you 4572 05:20:39,100 --> 05:20:45,181 yeah I'm super honored to to have one as silly as it seems just a pixel uh image but um I think 4573 05:20:45,181 --> 05:20:49,261 it it's it's more than just like you know just an NFT I think I really do think it's like it's 4574 05:20:49,261 --> 05:20:54,541 like a movement that hopefully will continue to do um good things for for Bitcoin I think 4575 05:20:54,541 --> 05:20:59,660 ordinals in general has onboarded a lot of people to to Bitcoin that were you know some people might 4576 05:20:59,660 --> 05:21:04,060 say for the wrong reasons or or whatever but these are people that have spun up nodes you know there's 4577 05:21:05,020 --> 05:21:10,941 been definitely thousands of nodes and at least hundreds um like that I've that I've held myself 4578 05:21:10,941 --> 05:21:15,020 in the order core there's definitely been people that are you know that been in other ecosystems 4579 05:21:15,020 --> 05:21:19,821 and now they're becoming Bitcoin maximalists and I've had plenty of conversations with people that 4580 05:21:19,821 --> 05:21:23,660 they're like wow everything else you know is uncomparable to Bitcoin and these are people 4581 05:21:23,660 --> 05:21:28,301 that didn't really touch Bitcoin but have been in the crypto ecosystem for you know over a year or 4582 05:21:28,301 --> 05:21:33,181 two years or whatever um so I think that's really good and just seeing people running full nodes 4583 05:21:33,181 --> 05:21:37,901 learning about UTXOs learning about self-custody and just seeing the benefits of you know Bitcoin 4584 05:21:37,901 --> 05:21:42,860 over other other you know other chains and just to see to understand why are Bitcoiners the way 4585 05:21:42,860 --> 05:21:47,580 they are why do they you know what do they value what is the culture of Bitcoin what are the values 4586 05:21:47,580 --> 05:21:51,981 of Bitcoin and like a lot of people are becoming more exposed to that I think that that that's a 4587 05:21:51,981 --> 05:21:55,421 benefit you know more people learning about Bitcoin is good for everybody that that are 4588 05:21:55,421 --> 05:22:00,061 Bitcoins uh Bitcoiners and no matter for what reason they use it and I think that that that 4589 05:22:00,061 --> 05:22:04,541 goes together with um like drivechains it shows that you know people can use Bitcoin for different 4590 05:22:04,541 --> 05:22:08,220 things but as long as we're all using the same thing we can all be under the same umbrella we 4591 05:22:08,220 --> 05:22:12,621 can all have like a common goal people that might use Bitcoin for something we don't like 4592 05:22:13,261 --> 05:22:18,141 you know that's okay because maybe other developers might help them out then and we don't have to 4593 05:22:18,141 --> 05:22:22,701 completely shun them out we can we can help them we can all be together and work towards a common 4594 05:22:22,701 --> 05:22:28,701 goal even if we have differences and we might want to use it in a different way so um yeah thanks uh 4595 05:22:28,701 --> 05:22:36,460 thanks for asking me I guess no we can't have any of that Bitcoin adoption people running nodes 4596 05:22:37,020 --> 05:22:43,901 people learning about what makes Bitcoin special no the Satoshi enjoyer what about 4597 05:22:43,901 --> 05:22:50,300 what about my podcast what about bro what about Bitcoin is my whole band and if we let people 4598 05:22:50,300 --> 05:22:54,220 find out about it it's going to not be cool anymore I think that like the podcast is you 4599 05:22:54,220 --> 05:22:59,500 know they're going to come crawling back they're going to one day when they'll be the only way 4600 05:22:59,500 --> 05:23:06,781 that they'll be able to buy food will be with Bitcoin and then Bitcoin will have saved like 4601 05:23:06,781 --> 05:23:10,141 there they definitely have a good to them right they definitely speak to a lot of people and 4602 05:23:10,141 --> 05:23:13,901 people resonate with it but not everybody there's going to be people that will not resonate with it 4603 05:23:13,901 --> 05:23:19,500 and you want them and you know what those people are the problem we need what we should do is we 4604 05:23:19,500 --> 05:23:26,940 need to melt those people down and pour them into a different cast that so that they're exactly like 4605 05:23:26,940 --> 05:23:33,181 the rest of us because that's what Bitcoin is about hey speaking about what Bitcoin's about 4606 05:23:33,181 --> 05:23:38,061 one last comment and I'll get out of here so I don't derail y'all's conversation um 4607 05:23:39,100 --> 05:23:47,581 but uh uh going back to Bitcoin miners being um uh compliant like I was also thinking about this 4608 05:23:47,660 --> 05:23:56,461 the other day on um like like what makes Bitcoin like more valuable and it kind of bothers me 4609 05:23:56,461 --> 05:24:05,021 that like we've allowed this narrative to take root that Bitcoin um is different or special 4610 05:24:05,021 --> 05:24:13,340 or Bitcoin is um like uh Bitcoin exists because you know we comply with the laws and so the 4611 05:24:13,340 --> 05:24:21,021 government like allows Bitcoin to exist and it it bothers me because yeah the unregistered 4612 05:24:21,021 --> 05:24:27,100 securities type yeah the whole point of Bitcoin is like like there's nothing the government can 4613 05:24:27,100 --> 05:24:31,900 fucking do about it like that's what makes Bitcoin valuable and powerful like like the 4614 05:24:31,900 --> 05:24:37,821 government's perception of Bitcoin even though they can cause a lot of pain is kind of irrelevant 4615 05:24:37,821 --> 05:24:44,380 like that's the point of it and so like in the power dynamic Bitcoin's more powerful than the 4616 05:24:44,380 --> 05:24:51,180 government like it like like Jesus that's a very moxie thing to say well I mean I guess what I'm 4617 05:24:51,180 --> 05:24:56,780 saying is like you've been to the will of Bitcoin Bitcoin doesn't bend to the will of some elected 4618 05:24:56,780 --> 05:25:04,701 politician and so from that perspective having them ban Bitcoin but it not fucking matter is 4619 05:25:04,701 --> 05:25:13,421 like a massive billboard that is displaying the power dynamic and so to allow them to like act 4620 05:25:13,421 --> 05:25:18,701 like oh they've blessed it to continue it's like you're like you're just some fucking old man who 4621 05:25:18,701 --> 05:25:26,141 shits in a diaper in Washington DC like you don't fucking matter like I don't know I just feel like 4622 05:25:26,141 --> 05:25:34,541 it's like Bitcoin becomes more powerful like more valuable when people come to appreciate that 4623 05:25:34,620 --> 05:25:44,220 its existence is independent entirely from the political system well of course I actually think 4624 05:25:44,220 --> 05:25:54,541 it's a little worse than that which is to say if we go down the road of saying that Bitcoin must 4625 05:25:54,541 --> 05:26:03,421 always be compliant with whatever Washington DC decides then the entire design is not going to 4626 05:26:03,421 --> 05:26:10,220 work the hall the proof of work is wasted the you know the data a database would be 4627 05:26:10,220 --> 05:26:19,741 more technically efficient and better easier to scale Venmo WeChat pay CBDCs they would all be 4628 05:26:19,741 --> 05:26:25,340 able to easily compete with Bitcoin in that dimension so unless Bitcoin has this kind of 4629 05:26:25,340 --> 05:26:32,541 subversive edge I think it will definitely go to zero well I feel like the government's going to 4630 05:26:32,861 --> 05:26:38,301 keep trying to like sanitize it's like subversive edge because the last thing the government wants 4631 05:26:38,301 --> 05:26:44,701 is to be shown to be powerless so it's like they'll figure out some contorted way to like 4632 05:26:44,701 --> 05:26:50,861 make it seem like these two things are like working in combination when in reality like 4633 05:26:50,861 --> 05:26:57,340 Bitcoin has no fucking clue what they're doing it doesn't fucking care their hanger-ons and the 4634 05:26:57,340 --> 05:27:03,421 sooner that we can have everyone else see that it's like just the the faster that we like I don't 4635 05:27:03,421 --> 05:27:11,741 know dissolve their power I I feel like this is a little bit out there but like I'm starting to 4636 05:27:11,741 --> 05:27:18,141 think that like we need to get Bitcoin mining banned you'll need to have vendor adoption for 4637 05:27:18,141 --> 05:27:25,021 any kind of like for anyone to kind of see what you're what you're proclaiming here because 4638 05:27:25,981 --> 05:27:34,541 if if you had the government's close off any fiat off and on ramps like peg in peg out so to speak 4639 05:27:35,180 --> 05:27:40,940 then then you that would have not a catastrophic effect because the network would continue but it 4640 05:27:40,940 --> 05:27:46,060 would it would certainly have an effect the only way that you make make everyone realize that 4641 05:27:46,701 --> 05:27:51,500 that governments have no effect on Bitcoin is to have a wider vendor adoption 4642 05:27:52,141 --> 05:28:00,141 yeah circular economy and and and uh and the most important thing is this centralized price 4643 05:28:00,141 --> 05:28:06,060 discovery for Bitcoin because so long it's it's uh the price is discovered on a few uh 4644 05:28:06,060 --> 05:28:14,620 centralized exchanges and and basically the the fiat wall street bro liquidity 4645 05:28:15,500 --> 05:28:24,461 is the main driver of Bitcoin price it reacts to the changes in available credit almost immediately 4646 05:28:24,461 --> 05:28:28,940 and the money the supply changes and doesn't really seem to care about anything else 4647 05:28:30,620 --> 05:28:40,060 these are very centrally controllable things so Bitcoin can hardly be free in in this uh setup 4648 05:28:40,060 --> 05:28:44,940 well I will what I will push back on with the the markets where these things trade 4649 05:28:45,500 --> 05:28:53,661 because we have examples of illicit goods that are banned basically universally and those markets 4650 05:28:53,661 --> 05:29:00,701 are massively liquid so like you know cocaine or fucking like hard drugs those are massively 4651 05:29:00,701 --> 05:29:05,261 liquid markets that are moving huge sums of money moving more money than Bitcoin's moving 4652 05:29:05,901 --> 05:29:13,740 and they're able to operate like just fine I mean you know like I I did not I did not say 4653 05:29:13,740 --> 05:29:21,821 I did not say that uh it would not be liquid without this I would say that it needs to it 4654 05:29:21,821 --> 05:29:27,581 needs to move off from this platform because these platforms have shown that they will bend over to 4655 05:29:27,581 --> 05:29:34,781 the regulators like almost immediately they will fold and they implemented this KSCM bullshit that 4656 05:29:34,781 --> 05:29:39,821 was pushed on them uh without much resistance they did not try to flee the jurisdiction they 4657 05:29:39,821 --> 05:29:48,221 did not try to uh I mean a few of them did try to ignore VPN users and and stuff like that but 4658 05:29:48,221 --> 05:29:55,901 even they got uh smacked down and and beaten into obedience and and somehow people seem to value 4659 05:29:56,781 --> 05:30:05,980 the large compliant uh semi-institutions and the whole thing basically went sideways there 4660 05:30:05,980 --> 05:30:11,901 in my view and now now the price discovery happens there and increasing beyond derivatives and 4661 05:30:13,021 --> 05:30:20,620 I I think what you are saying makes sense so um I was kind of hoping that Bitcoin gets banned in 4662 05:30:20,620 --> 05:30:27,261 the United States and especially mining I I kind of found it weird that the European Union was more 4663 05:30:27,261 --> 05:30:34,860 hardline on Bitcoin than the U.S. for up till now it was a bit weird and um I don't like this 4664 05:30:34,860 --> 05:30:44,781 situation that the miners are so much exposed to the U.S. uh legislators and um I too believe that 4665 05:30:44,781 --> 05:30:51,821 it would probably better long term if if Bitcoin was basically mining and the trading was banned 4666 05:30:51,821 --> 05:30:58,540 in the United States but uh that's not the world we live in one can hope one can dream that one day 4667 05:30:58,540 --> 05:31:09,341 we can be uh banned uh the you know I think Paul's point on the mining of like hey um uh compliance 4668 05:31:09,341 --> 05:31:16,461 is subsidizing one set of miners and it's and it's uh subsidizing one form of behavior and it's 4669 05:31:16,461 --> 05:31:21,341 basically taking away potential revenue from those that would mind in a non-compliant way 4670 05:31:22,060 --> 05:31:28,461 uh I think that that applies equally to fiat on-ramps as well like like the centralized exchanges 4671 05:31:29,180 --> 05:31:36,141 um that are compliant have have cannibalized the on-ramp market and taken business away 4672 05:31:36,221 --> 05:31:40,300 from what would be the non-compliant like peer-to-peer markets and I remember when I got 4673 05:31:40,300 --> 05:31:46,141 into Bitcoin like the peer-to-peer markets were were vibrant and now they basically all shut down 4674 05:31:46,141 --> 05:31:55,101 I mean there's an uh maybe there's a couple left but yeah it's it's um uh it's an interesting 4675 05:31:55,101 --> 05:32:01,101 kind of way to look at it of just like yeah I don't know it's interesting that speaks to my 4676 05:32:01,101 --> 05:32:07,980 point where if uh if fiat off-ramps and on-ramps were banned then all that we would have would be 4677 05:32:07,980 --> 05:32:13,661 uh illegal drugs and podcasts and whoever sells stickers uh with lightning on the internet 4678 05:32:14,221 --> 05:32:21,420 though we need to get more people you know selling crepes and and lattes um the reason 4679 05:32:21,420 --> 05:32:26,461 I came up here though was uh if I could bring it back to drivechains for a sec yeah sorry 4680 05:32:27,021 --> 05:32:32,540 sorry I just have a bit of a this is probably like quite beginner questions but I just want 4681 05:32:32,540 --> 05:32:41,261 to make sure that I'm grasping this correctly um when you have this uh the the miners who are all 4682 05:32:42,940 --> 05:32:48,940 like the word I think that has been used is kind of voting on a hash that they copied and pasted 4683 05:32:48,940 --> 05:32:55,341 it's it's not really uh voting so much as just making sure that there's like a 4684 05:32:56,781 --> 05:33:04,300 a sort of enough of a mass that agree um on this particular hash being what the drivechain 4685 05:33:04,300 --> 05:33:12,060 like the shitcoin enjoyers are saying um because it's it's it's supposed to operate more like a 4686 05:33:12,060 --> 05:33:21,021 protocol um yes it's not um I think I still stand by using the word vote even though I think it is 4687 05:33:21,021 --> 05:33:29,261 misleading I think it is actually the least misleading of all the words in context because 4688 05:33:29,261 --> 05:33:36,620 what it does it's supposed to highlight the fact that you are not when you run an L1 node you're 4689 05:33:36,620 --> 05:33:44,860 not required to run the L2 node so it could be anything and in that sense it's kind of arbitrary 4690 05:33:44,860 --> 05:33:51,420 what it is um and that is very important because it would be very very easy to design something 4691 05:33:51,420 --> 05:33:55,581 that works perfectly all the time and that miners could never steal from if we just made it mandatory 4692 05:33:56,860 --> 05:34:00,701 but the whole point of sidechains is that we're going to try to police a sidechain that we're not 4693 05:34:00,701 --> 05:34:08,940 looking at so we shrink it to this one arbitrary thing but then even though on L1 from L1's point 4694 05:34:08,940 --> 05:34:14,380 of view anything could go there any hash could go there any 32 byte hash could go there for this 4695 05:34:14,380 --> 05:34:21,500 three month period and if there were a disagreement or like a sort of a close vote that would that 4696 05:34:21,500 --> 05:34:28,781 would entirely be a side effect of the shitcoin um having some disagreement on their chain which 4697 05:34:28,781 --> 05:34:34,060 is sort of uh it's actually not possible I mean it actually is possible because it no matter how 4698 05:34:34,060 --> 05:34:39,500 well we've designed the sidechain template anyone could fork it and then just delete all the good 4699 05:34:39,500 --> 05:34:43,500 stuff and they could you could have it's theoretically possible to have a sidechain that 4700 05:34:43,500 --> 05:34:51,581 has no software and then no one knows what the withdrawal state is but it's theoretically possible 4701 05:34:52,380 --> 05:34:57,021 um that's so much free because again the goal with sidechains is to give people freedom 4702 05:34:57,980 --> 05:35:03,661 to try their own ideas and to also assign blame when the idea doesn't work blame the sidechain 4703 05:35:04,300 --> 05:35:10,701 developer don't blame like the bitcoin process or like the consensus or the people or the miners 4704 05:35:11,500 --> 05:35:17,420 it's all about nope you have your shot sidechain developer and if there's no bugs and if it's 4705 05:35:17,420 --> 05:35:24,060 popular then you've done well and the miners they also have their shot no one no one gets to say 4706 05:35:24,781 --> 05:35:30,461 no one gets to shirk the responsibility and say well what could I have done I was I'm only 4707 05:35:31,021 --> 05:35:37,341 David Bailey runner of a magazine what could I have done to fix this problem in bitcoin everyone 4708 05:35:37,341 --> 05:35:40,380 always has their opportunity to fix the problem and then they always get blamed if they don't do 4709 05:35:40,380 --> 05:35:48,380 it right so the so so but the what I'm trying to get is everyone is resisting the ideas because 4710 05:35:48,380 --> 05:35:53,980 you're the they don't want the accountability exactly I'm afraid that's probably the case 4711 05:35:54,701 --> 05:36:01,661 but um the what's happening is if you use our sidechain template there's no disagreement on 4712 05:36:01,661 --> 05:36:08,620 possible on the L2 the L2 will automatically calculate for everyone it's doing every single 4713 05:36:08,620 --> 05:36:14,141 thing when it does its sidechain node it tracks every sidechain block every sidechain transaction 4714 05:36:14,141 --> 05:36:20,540 and then as part of the BIB 300 rules it has carefully kept track of during this period 4715 05:36:20,540 --> 05:36:25,901 which withdrawals haven't been paid out yet it sources withdrawals based on the L1 fee 4716 05:36:25,901 --> 05:36:33,101 that they intended to pay if they make it through the gauntlet the 13 000 count and 4717 05:36:35,260 --> 05:36:43,581 and it will automatically calculate the one hash that is the hash for that sidechain for everyone 4718 05:36:43,660 --> 05:36:50,381 it's always it's the exact same and that is also the transaction id of the ultimate transaction 4719 05:36:50,381 --> 05:36:56,381 that would pay out on L1 that all those withdrawals so it's all the same hash and it's 4720 05:36:56,381 --> 05:37:02,621 exactly the same for everyone and it's procedurally calculated automatically and in fact then it's in 4721 05:37:03,341 --> 05:37:08,461 every single sidechain block and every single sidechain block header and it's in in our software 4722 05:37:08,461 --> 05:37:13,981 it shows up in a little ribbon in the bottom of the screen where everyone can look at it 4723 05:37:13,981 --> 05:37:20,300 for three months so that's that's the this is the technique is on L1 it's arbitrary 4724 05:37:20,300 --> 05:37:26,940 hash could be anything but on L2 it's it's the easiest thing to find in the entire world 4725 05:37:26,940 --> 05:37:33,101 you know you can't miss it and it's one hash it's the same for everyone and it's staring you in the 4726 05:37:33,101 --> 05:37:40,940 face all the time it's very easy to find okay so that's why it's so if if like some of the 4727 05:37:40,940 --> 05:37:47,260 opponent's arguments have been like about if there's a sort of split vote but that would 4728 05:37:47,260 --> 05:37:52,381 only occur if there was like some real maliciousness happening on the on the sidechain 4729 05:37:52,381 --> 05:37:58,060 where they were trying to go on it can never happen because it can only happen if what could 4730 05:37:58,060 --> 05:38:02,940 the only thing that could happen would be if you fork if you if the blockchain has some kind of 4731 05:38:03,501 --> 05:38:12,780 orphaned block situation or re-orging near the exact moment when the new epoch epoch is uh 4732 05:38:12,780 --> 05:38:16,621 is starting so when it's going to calculate it's going to switch it's been telling you this one 4733 05:38:16,621 --> 05:38:23,341 hash for january february march and now it's it's around april 1st and it's getting ready to click 4734 05:38:23,341 --> 05:38:31,341 over someone could do a last minute withdrawal just try and get jump jump the line to get on 4735 05:38:31,341 --> 05:38:37,341 the train in time you know before it leaves the station and if that block is like if there's 4736 05:38:37,341 --> 05:38:42,381 some weird blockchain split and it's re-orged out or something then that then it will change there 4737 05:38:43,420 --> 05:38:51,501 but there's actually never any point in time when it is not known because even if there is 4738 05:38:52,461 --> 05:38:59,581 even if that event happens there will always be one of the two chains that is long either longer 4739 05:38:59,581 --> 05:39:05,260 than the other or has the most recent block found so this everyone who runs a sidechain node will 4740 05:39:05,260 --> 05:39:12,540 see this exact same chain state and they will see the exact same hash and so i guess um the reason 4741 05:39:13,900 --> 05:39:17,821 that's why i hate to interrupt you but i just wanted to get in this last point about 4742 05:39:17,900 --> 05:39:24,621 that's why i began the answer by saying i stand by the word vote even though it's misleading 4743 05:39:24,621 --> 05:39:27,101 so maybe now you get a better idea of what i 4744 05:39:27,277 --> 05:39:34,957 meant by that which is what i meant was it's not really a vote at all a vote is like there's two groups of people and they each have their argument for like 4745 05:39:35,837 --> 05:39:42,237 why you should vote for them and they're kind of like vying for your support in this adversarial 4746 05:39:42,237 --> 05:39:48,076 situation but that's not what it is in the slightest however i still stand by it because 4747 05:39:48,076 --> 05:39:53,996 the most important thing to emphasize is that L1 is not required to do any of this i'm saying i 4748 05:39:53,996 --> 05:39:59,517 shrink the problem to just one hash and i sort of hope for the best and that's much better of 4749 05:39:59,517 --> 05:40:04,716 course then because otherwise we'd have to be responsible for every single sidechain message 4750 05:40:05,517 --> 05:40:10,396 every single sidechain block all the sidechain rules and dependencies and whatever else 4751 05:40:11,277 --> 05:40:18,317 and that would be uh that would not work at all because this is something that already is in L1 4752 05:40:18,317 --> 05:40:25,757 counting the 13 000 and checking if transaction id matches something else is already what it's done 4753 05:40:25,757 --> 05:40:30,797 so now i'll let you get back to asking whatever you're going to ask about no i think uh yeah i 4754 05:40:30,797 --> 05:40:35,757 better understand it and um yeah voting i don't know if that's the best word but confirmation 4755 05:40:35,757 --> 05:40:41,357 has already been used um it technically is a cross-chain confirmation of a kind in in the 4756 05:40:41,357 --> 05:40:48,796 sense that when a bitcoin miner builds a block when they try to find the next block they are 4757 05:40:48,796 --> 05:40:54,957 sort of voting on which block to extend just happens to be the case that in our situation 4758 05:40:54,957 --> 05:41:00,476 they almost always vote on the most recent block but of course they could try to go back and build 4759 05:41:00,476 --> 05:41:07,116 off some other block they just never do and that is really really similar to what is supposed to 4760 05:41:07,116 --> 05:41:14,637 be happening in BIP300 since everyone knows which hash should be upvoted but we cannot ever 4761 05:41:16,397 --> 05:41:19,277 you see the design has to be built around 4762 05:41:21,677 --> 05:41:27,757 the whole point of any like design is in this situation i think is like there are all these 4763 05:41:27,757 --> 05:41:32,796 things out there that are very big problems so you design it so that they don't become problems 4764 05:41:32,876 --> 05:41:36,717 and then i don't know if this explanation is making any sense moonsetter gave me the thumbs 4765 05:41:36,717 --> 05:41:42,877 up but it's kind of like the the whole point we the whole point that we extended the block 4766 05:41:43,437 --> 05:41:47,997 miners always find it in their interest to extend the latest block that's because the design is good 4767 05:41:48,797 --> 05:41:55,676 and it's only works because they could extend some other block and that's why for example the 4768 05:41:55,676 --> 05:42:00,637 block withhold withholding a block of ambiguous validity which is a problem we discussed earlier 4769 05:42:00,637 --> 05:42:05,437 which is a problem we discussed earlier in this space yeah that's how you beat that problem by 4770 05:42:05,437 --> 05:42:09,916 letting the miners extend any block so someone finds a block and they say they refuse to tell 4771 05:42:09,916 --> 05:42:14,877 you whether or not what's in the block or whether or not the block is valid you're not you're not 4772 05:42:14,877 --> 05:42:21,116 screwed you just go two blocks back and you just keep moving on and then you just orphan that block 4773 05:42:21,116 --> 05:42:26,316 so it's because the design is so good that the problem never comes up and similarly with bit 4774 05:42:26,316 --> 05:42:33,437 300 the goal is it's totally and completely unambiguous what the hash should be and that's 4775 05:42:33,437 --> 05:42:39,196 why it's not as big of a deal to let the miners put any hash there that they want because everyone 4776 05:42:39,196 --> 05:42:45,116 knows what it is and everyone knows that even if they don't know they could know and so if anyone 4777 05:42:45,116 --> 05:42:50,556 out there claims that's you know if anyone tries to claim some kind of dispute that person is 4778 05:42:50,556 --> 05:42:55,036 destroying their own reputation because it's going to be very very very easy 4779 05:42:57,437 --> 05:43:01,756 unbelievably easy for anyone to figure out what the true hash is and then they'll just wonder 4780 05:43:02,396 --> 05:43:08,157 why this person tried to tell them such a pointless and destructive lie anyone who runs a 4781 05:43:08,157 --> 05:43:13,836 sidechain node will know the real hash and that includes people who weren't running one before 4782 05:43:14,717 --> 05:43:18,637 listen to this dispute for five or six weeks and then just decide to run it on a random weekend 4783 05:43:19,437 --> 05:43:26,556 so anyone can it's that's why it's the way it is and the other other thing is even if there was 4784 05:43:26,556 --> 05:43:36,316 like controversy in in the in this voting process the entire thing in my understanding can't ever 4785 05:43:36,316 --> 05:43:45,676 come to a situation where where the layer one nodes experience the chain split by enforcing 4786 05:43:45,676 --> 05:43:51,997 drivechain rules so the most likely scenario if someone really uses on the wrong cache is that 4787 05:43:51,997 --> 05:43:59,437 the withdrawal just won't happen at least that's how I understand it and and the only only way that 4788 05:43:59,437 --> 05:44:06,796 a chain split could actually happen is if if the layer one nodes try to like 4789 05:44:07,516 --> 05:44:12,877 manually alter the outcome they would fork or or something like that 4790 05:44:15,437 --> 05:44:20,717 the drivechain rules themselves cannot cause and and that's a very important thing right so 4791 05:44:22,236 --> 05:44:30,236 yes it is it's very important that one of the things it does is it also prevents unexpected 4792 05:44:30,236 --> 05:44:36,956 miner related soft forks as a result of drama on the sidechain because the three month long 4793 05:44:38,236 --> 05:44:46,636 withdrawal is like a really really really slow measurement of the miners sentiment you know 4794 05:44:46,636 --> 05:44:54,396 what I mean like they're not going to carry it the full 13 000 you know votes or cross block 4795 05:44:54,477 --> 05:45:02,157 confirmations unless this is really what they are determined to do so by the time the withdrawal 4796 05:45:02,157 --> 05:45:08,396 actually happens there's no like ambiguity over what is supposed to be happening whereas of course 4797 05:45:08,396 --> 05:45:12,477 it's just much easier everyone what everyone can do is more easily just let the withdrawal 4798 05:45:13,197 --> 05:45:18,956 fail so that there's neither a theft nor a withdrawal and then the sidechain software 4799 05:45:18,956 --> 05:45:25,597 automatically it will automatically notice that it didn't fail it dumps everyone off the train 4800 05:45:25,597 --> 05:45:32,877 and back in line and reshuffles the line and it uh we have a program to wait as a sort of courtesy 4801 05:45:32,877 --> 05:45:39,037 since since something really weird happened it waits like I think like 200 blocks so that people 4802 05:45:39,037 --> 05:45:44,157 can decide if they want to get out of line or get more to get in line or something try to figure 4803 05:45:44,157 --> 05:45:50,717 out what's going on and then it will try again to load the train and it will just keep trying 4804 05:45:51,516 --> 05:45:58,076 because that's what it's supposed to do and again this is all about putting the blame 4805 05:45:59,037 --> 05:46:05,757 on the sidechain community the developers and the users of the sidechain if the sidechain is run 4806 05:46:05,757 --> 05:46:12,877 very well it will always be very easy to find very very very easy to find out which hash is real 4807 05:46:14,396 --> 05:46:19,997 as long as it's possible to run a node that's the cost and as long as the sidechain is generating 4808 05:46:19,997 --> 05:46:26,317 fees as long as it's generating useful activity for its members and for bitcoin as long as it's 4809 05:46:26,317 --> 05:46:31,676 increasing the price of bitcoin by offering a cool feature which is the zcash feature 4810 05:46:32,796 --> 05:46:39,197 as long as it's doing all of that then it will be something that the miners want to keep around 4811 05:46:40,076 --> 05:46:45,757 so no one there's no one who would be stopping the withdrawal process there's no one there's 4812 05:46:45,757 --> 05:46:52,236 absolutely no one in the whole system actually has any incentive whatsoever 4813 05:46:52,956 --> 05:46:55,757 to create a dispute over which hash is real 4814 05:46:56,717 --> 05:47:04,236 so given what you say about how the L1 is basically unaffected 4815 05:47:06,157 --> 05:47:11,917 am I correct in understanding that the reason that there still needs to be like kind of massive 4816 05:47:11,917 --> 05:47:17,836 buy-in on this is because if you don't have consensus across the board that drivechains 4817 05:47:18,396 --> 05:47:26,396 drivechains are happening if 300 and 301 are adopted then any any uh any transactions or 4818 05:47:26,396 --> 05:47:33,917 addresses created by uh drivechains are seen as everyone else who's not a drivechain enjoyer 4819 05:47:33,917 --> 05:47:41,116 as being anyone can spend well that's partially the case yes i'm afraid that it the true answer 4820 05:47:41,116 --> 05:47:49,356 involves a little bit of like history and uh just randomness and chaos i mean in terms of 4821 05:47:49,356 --> 05:47:56,157 the social element yeah the literal answer is that more than 51 percent of miners must must 4822 05:47:56,157 --> 05:48:02,636 be enforcing a soft fork and then as long as they are enforcing it plus the people using it 4823 05:48:03,436 --> 05:48:09,996 are enforcing it plus maybe like one or two other people like maybe like one coinbase 4824 05:48:11,117 --> 05:48:19,917 something you know coinbase the company then um no one will be able to do a withdrawal 4825 05:48:20,717 --> 05:48:26,557 early they all have to do the 13 000 counter and the point of that is keep the miners on a 4826 05:48:26,557 --> 05:48:34,636 short leash so it's kind of ironic that what BIP300 does is make it harder for miners to steal from 4827 05:48:35,196 --> 05:48:43,917 a drivechain and that is the whole point that is sort of why miners alone shouldn't activate it 4828 05:48:45,516 --> 05:48:49,277 it's because we could already do drivechain today with no soft fork by just doing like a 4829 05:48:49,277 --> 05:48:54,956 handshake deal with the miners where we just say okay miners let's just all do this now but the 4830 05:48:54,956 --> 05:49:01,357 miners would prefer to be able to prove that they can't do something you know what i mean like it's 4831 05:49:01,357 --> 05:49:06,157 uh it's kind of it's hard to you know i don't know if those are great metaphors but it's like 4832 05:49:06,157 --> 05:49:11,117 you know when people get together and they drink everyone lets their guard down it's kind of like a 4833 05:49:11,117 --> 05:49:17,196 disarmament the miners say listen if you send us these coins we'll be able to send them wherever 4834 05:49:17,196 --> 05:49:25,597 we want and then you're thinking well why would i do that that sounds crazy and the miners say well 4835 05:49:25,597 --> 05:49:33,037 listen we can send them wherever we want but we have to we have to first tell you exactly 4836 05:49:33,037 --> 05:49:35,917 where we're sending them and then we have to do this three month long dance 4837 05:49:37,516 --> 05:49:44,157 and so and during those three months who owns what hash or who's in what pool all that could 4838 05:49:44,157 --> 05:49:49,996 change a lot so it's going to be kind of hard for us to we're going to be sending it today to our 4839 05:49:49,996 --> 05:49:57,756 future selves three months from now which are not necessarily complete overlap and so that just 4840 05:49:57,756 --> 05:50:02,956 kind of makes it a little harder for us to take the coins and therefore it's sort of easier for 4841 05:50:02,956 --> 05:50:11,436 people to trust the miners who have handicapped themselves in this way that makes sense okay good 4842 05:50:11,996 --> 05:50:16,876 um just a final question and as to why you're not doing it in a super ordinate way like the 4843 05:50:16,876 --> 05:50:23,516 way ordinals are done sort of uh building up a a scaffolding outside of layer one i i assume 4844 05:50:23,516 --> 05:50:29,917 that's because in your in your view this uh this way is the the way to do it without introducing 4845 05:50:29,917 --> 05:50:38,076 any trust like the way you need to with liquid uh partly it's really because i was probably a little 4846 05:50:38,076 --> 05:50:42,157 too nice about the whole thing really which is i just well it's sort of like i invented this thing 4847 05:50:42,956 --> 05:50:47,677 and then it kind of felt like the community went like in the segway direction and i was kind of 4848 05:50:47,677 --> 05:50:54,316 like fine everyone's making money this whole time so i was just kind of like whatever and everyone 4849 05:50:54,316 --> 05:50:58,477 thought you know all the other the other thing that was happening was a lot of people who had 4850 05:50:58,477 --> 05:51:03,917 different ideas were shooting themselves in the foot and so all the other ideas sucked so 4851 05:51:04,717 --> 05:51:11,196 bitcoin was doing great the large blockers forked off and they would have been like good customers 4852 05:51:11,196 --> 05:51:17,436 of this project so that kind of stalled it all so the way in which they withheld SegWit created 4853 05:51:17,436 --> 05:51:24,316 this miners versus developers sort of drama so that was kind of just like this kind of 4854 05:51:24,316 --> 05:51:31,436 slowed it down i think and i was just kind of waiting around for you know like a better moment 4855 05:51:31,436 --> 05:51:36,636 i think but then what happened was recently i was kind of looking into more of what everyone 4856 05:51:36,636 --> 05:51:41,836 else was doing you know how are things going enlightening and whatever and i was like 4857 05:51:42,876 --> 05:51:51,037 oh this sucks actually so um i should better uh be a little do a little more advocacy 4858 05:51:51,917 --> 05:52:00,076 so that's a partly why um i think the the technical reason though is that you cannot 4859 05:52:00,157 --> 05:52:06,636 unilaterally do something like this uh the the op-nop five has to be redefined for everyone 4860 05:52:06,636 --> 05:52:14,477 at the same time or it just stays what it is so there is a tiny collective action problem where 4861 05:52:14,477 --> 05:52:21,677 like it would be nice if the first miners to switch over to doing this somehow got more money 4862 05:52:21,677 --> 05:52:26,876 than the miners to come later but i'm afraid that that is not i haven't figured out how to do that 4863 05:52:26,876 --> 05:52:35,436 yet so so right now no one wants to be like the people all want to just look around and wait 4864 05:52:36,557 --> 05:52:41,117 it's a shirking responsibility god bless them you know 4865 05:52:43,836 --> 05:52:49,196 yeah i get it um does this this doesn't interfere at all with op ctv or op vault like they're 4866 05:52:49,196 --> 05:52:56,157 completely unrelated in every way the uh the only relationship is actually that ctv 4867 05:52:57,196 --> 05:53:05,277 greatly improves the withdrawal from 20 000 to like 100 million or something so like the 4868 05:53:05,277 --> 05:53:10,717 withdrawal right now it's limited to one transaction since this is one hash as we've 4869 05:53:10,717 --> 05:53:17,436 already belabored this point so the miner is going to pay take this they're going to select 4870 05:53:17,436 --> 05:53:24,396 when the withdrawal ultimately goes through the transaction it'll select the UTXO that has all the 4871 05:53:24,396 --> 05:53:30,076 coins and pay it out to like this big list of like maybe like 20 000 people max but it can 4872 05:53:30,076 --> 05:53:37,037 never be more than the one megabyte block size limit since there's no witness discount in this 4873 05:53:37,037 --> 05:53:43,196 case and of course it shouldn't be anywhere near that because that's a little that's kind of cutting 4874 05:53:43,196 --> 05:53:49,756 it close and it's a little discourteous also so we made it like half that or something especially 4875 05:53:49,756 --> 05:53:53,836 since it's only one transaction every three months so it's not so bad to take up half of 4876 05:53:53,836 --> 05:53:57,037 a block and you know it can it can be at any block it can be at one that's in like three 4877 05:53:57,037 --> 05:54:02,316 three a.m in the morning or something once it crosses the 13 000 number i can keep going to 4878 05:54:02,316 --> 05:54:10,797 like 13 000 and one 13 000 and two and then it can still be included so but uh be that as it may it 4879 05:54:10,797 --> 05:54:20,717 can only pay out to those people but with ctv on layer one you could pay out to 20 000 ctv 4880 05:54:21,917 --> 05:54:28,396 outputs that could then each pay to whatever an unlimited number of uh not an unlimited but like a 4881 05:54:28,396 --> 05:54:35,677 it would be something like each of them would pay to up to maybe it's like 50 or 60 000 or something 4882 05:54:35,677 --> 05:54:43,037 so then it would go from 20 000 to uh 20 000 times 60 000 so that would actually be kind of 4883 05:54:43,037 --> 05:54:47,196 neat but i don't know how relevant that would be but that would be kind of a cool improvement 4884 05:54:48,237 --> 05:54:53,117 but they're real hard of your question yeah of course yeah yeah they're all unrelated all the 4885 05:54:53,117 --> 05:55:02,636 op vault op ctv op uh op drivechain are all unrelated and kind of orthogonal i don't think 4886 05:55:03,277 --> 05:55:09,836 well uh a quick question if the covenants are of soft 14 and it's possible to implement 4887 05:55:10,396 --> 05:55:14,557 a primitive drivechain without registration slots and with some inefficiency 4888 05:55:15,597 --> 05:55:22,237 there were uh ideas for how ctv or apo or other covenants enable kind of primitive 4889 05:55:22,237 --> 05:55:28,636 inefficient drivechains would you be willing to settle for that and well i don't know about settle 4890 05:55:28,636 --> 05:55:33,836 but i think we should maybe we would do that next but you see the thing is uh 4891 05:55:35,597 --> 05:55:41,597 to me that would just prove how extra pointless it was not to do the efficient version so i still 4892 05:55:41,597 --> 05:55:46,316 don't see i mean i understand it maybe it's just because i'm too autistic but i just think like you 4893 05:55:46,316 --> 05:55:51,436 know what i mean it's kind of like i'm building a screwdriver and people are saying well paul what 4894 05:55:51,436 --> 05:55:55,597 if we had this thing where we had like eight hammers in a row and then and then they each 4895 05:55:55,836 --> 05:56:01,117 toothpicks and then we could we could we could maybe get some screws and i would just be like 4896 05:56:01,117 --> 05:56:07,117 why are we not using the screwdriver that i have reason you expect reason and rational behavior 4897 05:56:07,117 --> 05:56:13,037 from a cult that's the main problem that's so but you know in general right like it's 4898 05:56:13,037 --> 05:56:19,756 uh yeah that's my big character flaw oh my gosh how will i ever how will i ever make it 4899 05:56:20,557 --> 05:56:26,157 through life but i think the other thing to mention though is that i just mentioned also 4900 05:56:26,876 --> 05:56:33,837 that you we could do BIP300 today with no soft fork is just like a handshake deal with the miners 4901 05:56:33,837 --> 05:56:37,837 but it would be it'd be a similar it'd be like an inverse case where nothing is enforced 4902 05:56:38,957 --> 05:56:44,236 by anyone that would be even less secure right but see you're saying something like 4903 05:56:44,236 --> 05:56:48,077 you're saying something like it's just as secure because it does the accounting 4904 05:56:48,077 --> 05:56:53,917 but it's more inefficient but i have the version that is totally efficient because 4905 05:56:55,116 --> 05:56:59,516 but but less secure and these these are all just weird versions of the same thing to me 4906 05:57:00,157 --> 05:57:01,116 but probably not to you 4907 05:57:05,917 --> 05:57:12,716 but yes it's what i settle for yeah i think you're right um what i would say is i would 4908 05:57:12,716 --> 05:57:17,996 not settle for that but i would probably just go to an intermediate step i mean the funnier 4909 05:57:17,996 --> 05:57:23,596 thing would be to do the first we'd do the handshake deal wait for a while have someone 4910 05:57:23,596 --> 05:57:29,197 steal the coins and then say it's only because we didn't have BIP300 that these coins were stolen 4911 05:57:29,197 --> 05:57:35,996 and then just blame that on the also i just want to point out because i guess i'm a little autistic 4912 05:57:35,996 --> 05:57:41,116 that when you say the whole uh benefit of drivechains is that L1 doesn't need to care about what's 4913 05:57:41,116 --> 05:57:47,277 going on in there while at the same time there's someone to blame technically validity roll-ups 4914 05:57:47,277 --> 05:57:57,356 even though the up you know zkr opcode or up zk verify opcode must be checked by every node on L1 4915 05:57:58,077 --> 05:58:03,356 what happens inside the checking is just proof checking there is no inspection of the state or 4916 05:58:03,356 --> 05:58:08,957 understanding of the rules or anything it's just like a dumb top to bottom proof checker that just 4917 05:58:08,957 --> 05:58:14,557 checks syntactic correctness of the proof without actually understanding anything that's going on 4918 05:58:14,557 --> 05:58:21,677 on the validity roll-up so one recent uh new innovation in how to bring validity roll-ups 4919 05:58:21,677 --> 05:58:28,557 to bitcoin was that um the problem with validity roll-ups is that uh there's like infinite amount 4920 05:58:28,557 --> 05:58:33,516 of bike shedding that you know arguing about what particular virtual machine to target with this 4921 05:58:33,516 --> 05:58:40,236 up code whether it should be you know stark or snark or this machine or that machine until 4922 05:58:40,236 --> 05:58:47,037 somebody just suggested to target you know wasm which is the web assembly language as the target 4923 05:58:47,037 --> 05:58:53,516 virtual machine because that's highly portable all languages compiled to it it's high performance it 4924 05:58:53,516 --> 05:58:59,516 already works in all the web browsers and then as long as the validity roll-up itself can can be 4925 05:58:59,516 --> 05:59:05,596 compiled to wasm which anything can be these days that solves the coordination problem of what 4926 05:59:05,596 --> 05:59:11,917 particular opcode to target it also retains that desirable property that you advertise for 4927 05:59:11,917 --> 05:59:21,037 drivechains of not needing to care about what happens on the L2 as far as blaming if something 4928 05:59:21,037 --> 05:59:27,677 goes wrong like who gets blamed today if something goes wrong on ethereum L2 like arbitrum or whatever 4929 05:59:28,317 --> 05:59:31,116 clearly it's the team that launched that 4930 05:59:31,116 --> 05:59:32,236 uh 4931 05:59:32,378 --> 06:00:02,378 roll-up that gets blamed right and if the roll-up is launched as some kind of satoshi style launch then well you know satoshi disappears and there's no one to blame uh so it's basically buyer beware all the way so if you know if you if you are not worried about lack of decentralization and roll-ups then send your coins there if you are don't send your coins there yes of course i mean i think that i wouldn't really even feel that bad if we fast forward 10 years into the future and 4932 06:00:02,378 --> 06:00:08,458 people don't use BIP300 but they use something that does functionally like the exact same thing 4933 06:00:09,258 --> 06:00:15,817 i would just think well of course i was right in 2015 and i was right the entire time and uh 4934 06:00:16,618 --> 06:00:22,618 all these people saying oh what about what about if we call a senator you will be validated one way 4935 06:00:22,618 --> 06:00:28,938 or the other either by roll-ups being or by covenants being soft 14 or by drivechains or 4936 06:00:28,938 --> 06:00:34,058 you know sooner or later a pleb you know pleb uprising because of the apocalypse will validate 4937 06:00:34,058 --> 06:00:40,538 your ideas i'm sure all i'm just saying that the interesting uh peculiar thing about roll-ups is that 4938 06:00:41,098 --> 06:00:47,738 any tom dick and harry can launch a roll-up on ethereum permissionlessly for a single app so 4939 06:00:47,738 --> 06:00:53,257 there's like app-centric roll-ups like for example you can have a decentralized exchange that becomes 4940 06:00:53,818 --> 06:00:59,178 a roll-up or for example the frax stable coin on ethereum is about to launch its own roll-up 4941 06:00:59,178 --> 06:01:04,217 just for that stable coin so you can see a world where there is like a million roll-ups all 4942 06:01:05,257 --> 06:01:12,698 leeching off of L1 and there's no need to have a few major ones yeah the really really upsetting 4943 06:01:12,698 --> 06:01:21,577 thing would be if the only thing which i could see this happening ethereum defeats bitcoin because of 4944 06:01:21,657 --> 06:01:28,538 the turn complete script and it's not even used it is not even actually used in terms of being like 4945 06:01:28,538 --> 06:01:35,337 turn complete it is just used for like the same thing that's already like that's already in the 4946 06:01:35,337 --> 06:01:41,978 roadmap like for example ethereum's roadmap says never do any computations on ethereum L1 anymore 4947 06:01:41,978 --> 06:01:48,378 move all computation to one of a million L2 roll-ups and ethereum L1 is nothing but settlement 4948 06:01:48,378 --> 06:01:54,538 and data availability but this is exactly what of course you know we bitcoiners would say 4949 06:01:55,098 --> 06:01:59,657 when we were comparing or contrasting bitcoin it's the biggest it's the biggest irony that ethereum 4950 06:01:59,657 --> 06:02:03,577 is becoming more bitcoin but they are going to be more like it that's what well that's what i'm 4951 06:02:03,577 --> 06:02:09,577 trying to say is that the disappointing thing would be if bitcoin decided it will because of 4952 06:02:09,577 --> 06:02:16,057 the ossification gang it will not like add this tiny thing which is BIP300 which is like counting 4953 06:02:16,057 --> 06:02:24,698 the 13 000 in like a reversible op code that you could just discard and you know like if so instead 4954 06:02:26,937 --> 06:02:31,497 bitcoin decides like it would be like an irony it's like you know what like ethereum is saying 4955 06:02:31,497 --> 06:02:37,898 we have this turn completeness but it was only ever used for this one thing the you know the 4956 06:02:37,898 --> 06:02:44,057 kravitz roll-up which ended up being the standardized roll-up that everyone uses you 4957 06:02:44,057 --> 06:02:48,777 know what i mean like maybe there's one or two flavors it's basically like it's going to be used 4958 06:02:48,777 --> 06:02:55,098 like a grand central train station which simply orders blobs of opaque data from a million other 4959 06:02:55,098 --> 06:03:03,017 roll-ups into a into a kind of canonical sequence and preserves immutability and you know double 4960 06:03:03,017 --> 06:03:09,017 spend resistance of the sequence of opaque blobs but there is one additional component which is 4961 06:03:09,017 --> 06:03:15,258 that these roll-ups want to tap into the liquidity of ethereum which they all get that two-way bridge 4962 06:03:15,258 --> 06:03:21,017 with no trust of moving not just ether but every token on ether to the roll-up and back with no 4963 06:03:21,017 --> 06:03:27,417 trust that's yeah but that's what i'm saying i'm saying is this tragedy would be ethereum 4964 06:03:28,057 --> 06:03:34,297 defeats bitcoin because they use turing completeness to basically add BIP300 only 4965 06:03:35,017 --> 06:03:41,577 ethereum and that's the only thing that ethereum during completeness is used for is like basically 4966 06:03:41,577 --> 06:03:49,258 like these you know asymmetric sidechains or roll-ups as they're now called and then bitcoin 4967 06:03:49,258 --> 06:03:57,497 could have could have decided at any time to just do that one thing but because 4968 06:03:59,337 --> 06:04:01,578 they didn't want to resemble ethereum 4969 06:04:01,818 --> 06:04:09,818 that just we just decided sort of not to for no real reason that would be like so weird 4970 06:04:09,818 --> 06:04:16,298 but that's not gonna stay right like i'm i'm very optimistic because uh of two two two basically 4971 06:04:16,298 --> 06:04:21,258 things which is i've already mentioned that if apocalypse with or without ordinals is unavoidable 4972 06:04:21,258 --> 06:04:28,057 simply because uh the the the the tidal wave of adoption is gonna hit the absolute scarcity 4973 06:04:28,217 --> 06:04:33,818 the absolute scarcity of blog space with with the ordinals is probably within 12 to 18 months 4974 06:04:34,858 --> 06:04:40,858 and once that happens the pleb uprising will sweep away the cult that's been chanting ossify 4975 06:04:40,858 --> 06:04:47,018 and engaged in and farmed the engagement on twitter that that's gonna all gonna be swept 4976 06:04:47,018 --> 06:04:53,258 away by the by the energy of the of the democratic crowd from below you know it's gonna be like a 4977 06:04:53,258 --> 06:04:59,578 color revolution basically i have a question for you alex because i also kind of see it where it's 4978 06:04:59,578 --> 06:05:05,018 inevitable where the people go up um you know ordinals or not um but i i'm sure you remember 4979 06:05:05,018 --> 06:05:09,098 like during ethereum's like there was a peak time where like uniswap transactions were like over 4980 06:05:09,098 --> 06:05:14,457 300 each for for sustainably for several weeks right for like at least a month that was their 4981 06:05:15,818 --> 06:05:20,617 right but you can see that like most of the you know um newcomers coming into the space they just 4982 06:05:20,617 --> 06:05:26,858 weren't even using ethereum right they were using like bsc and other chains um so i'm not sure if 4983 06:05:26,858 --> 06:05:34,138 like the pep no but i tried that when when i had to like collateralize my bitcoin in order not to 4984 06:05:34,138 --> 06:05:41,177 sell it not to pay taxes so i tried using other l1s like i tried using avalanche and other chains 4985 06:05:41,737 --> 06:05:46,538 and what i came to realize is that even though the transaction fees could be 100 times lower 4986 06:05:46,538 --> 06:05:52,057 on those other chains it was still dramatically cheaper to use ethereum simply because 4987 06:05:52,057 --> 06:05:57,258 liquidity was so much higher on ethereum that even though you're paying 20 to 50 transaction fee 4988 06:05:57,818 --> 06:06:02,538 you're actually getting a much significantly better price on swapping assets or doing any 4989 06:06:02,538 --> 06:06:08,457 kind of operation simply because that's where every all liquidity is right so there's actually 4990 06:06:10,298 --> 06:06:15,337 20 to 50 but when the cheese when the fees were like you know 300 plus just for a uniswap i'm 4991 06:06:15,337 --> 06:06:21,177 sure that's no but that's exactly what it means the same way it becomes unaffordable to 99 percent 4992 06:06:21,177 --> 06:06:27,737 of individuals but it remains affordable to the to the people who count which is namely whales and 4993 06:06:27,737 --> 06:06:32,538 institutions because they're the ones who actually provide the liquidity you think that the whales 4994 06:06:32,538 --> 06:06:38,937 will basically in short the whales will will sustain the the apocalypse on that's exactly 4995 06:06:38,937 --> 06:06:42,858 that's exactly what already happened on ethereum and that's exactly what's going to happen on 4996 06:06:42,937 --> 06:06:49,978 bitcoin i'm assuming that bitcoin gets fully institutionalized and you will have luxury 4997 06:06:49,978 --> 06:06:57,098 ordinals and you will have blackrock paying paypal settling bitcoin between euro dollar banks and 4998 06:06:57,098 --> 06:07:01,418 you know you will have like the average size of transaction in dollars will go to like a million 4999 06:07:01,418 --> 06:07:07,018 dollars and then the fees can go to a thousand dollars and nobody will care so in that scenario 5000 06:07:07,018 --> 06:07:12,858 like in the current um like in the current environment it looks like then most people 5001 06:07:12,858 --> 06:07:19,258 would just be using custodial bitcoin then and you know exactly what already because i know that 5002 06:07:19,258 --> 06:07:24,457 that all the podcasters and the laser ad priests have already been telling people to use custodial 5003 06:07:24,457 --> 06:07:31,737 lightning and lsps as long as they keep chanting you know we love bitcoin and bitcoin only right 5004 06:07:31,737 --> 06:07:35,818 they're told to use custodial lightning solutions i have no doubt that they will tell 5005 06:07:36,457 --> 06:07:43,177 their you know their bamboozled flock to go and use blackrock etf right they will say well you 5006 06:07:43,177 --> 06:07:49,737 can just buy bitcoin and not worry about multi-sig fragile but on the same at the same time you also 5007 06:07:49,737 --> 06:07:54,698 think that enough of these plebs are going to be like like we want to use fully a non-custodial 5008 06:07:54,698 --> 06:08:00,378 bitcoin and well the reason why right the reason why you will have enough of these plebs is because 5009 06:08:00,937 --> 06:08:05,658 like 50 million plebs have already bought in and they hold some bitcoin and once it becomes 5010 06:08:05,658 --> 06:08:12,537 unaffordable to use bitcoin L1 for these plebs that will be the outcry that we saw on ethereum 5011 06:08:12,537 --> 06:08:17,258 and this this constituency is about to get a rude awakening that they've been listening to 5012 06:08:17,258 --> 06:08:23,177 podcasters they've been essentially telling them that everything is fine bitcoin is perfect as is 5013 06:08:23,177 --> 06:08:27,977 you don't you don't need any covenant soft force or anything but when they see that they have to 5014 06:08:27,977 --> 06:08:32,378 pay fifty dollars or a hundred dollars to move you know five hundred dollars worth of savings in 5015 06:08:32,378 --> 06:08:39,497 nigeria right they they can tell that everything is not fine right and the feedback the the anger 5016 06:08:39,497 --> 06:08:44,778 from that will be overwhelming and the anger from that will essentially discredit every priest that's 5017 06:08:44,778 --> 06:08:51,018 been podcasting ossified chance you know 24 7 because this is already this is this is what 5018 06:08:51,018 --> 06:08:55,578 happened in ethereum is going to happen in bitcoin and there's there's already a way to fix all these 5019 06:08:55,578 --> 06:09:01,658 problems like for example simply enabling covenant soft fork enables arc scales lightning 5020 06:09:01,658 --> 06:09:08,778 enables primitive drivechains and you know i'm not even talking about you know drivechains proper 5021 06:09:08,778 --> 06:09:13,417 or validity roll-ups but it will all be up in the air once the chaos breaks out it will be like a 5022 06:09:13,417 --> 06:09:21,018 ladder you know yeah i wouldn't i wouldn't use the word right chains for what simple governance can 5023 06:09:21,018 --> 06:09:26,778 do that's not right let's just call them sidechains of some sort of space chains when that 5024 06:09:26,778 --> 06:09:32,138 they are closer to space chains than to drivechain but do they have the same semantics as 5025 06:09:32,138 --> 06:09:38,857 drivechains with counting etc you you can have stuff like that but you can't really have 5026 06:09:38,857 --> 06:09:44,378 like a true hash rate escrow and drivechain is the hash rate escrow plus the blind merge mining so 5027 06:09:45,258 --> 06:09:51,977 as far as i can tell there are only a few proposals or you need to make a tailor-made proposal 5028 06:09:51,977 --> 06:09:58,937 uh for for actually implementing the hash rate escrow with the covenant because ctv ap or vote 5029 06:09:58,937 --> 06:10:07,898 will not really do that if you can do something like tx hash plus opcast maybe can someone can 5030 06:10:08,458 --> 06:10:15,898 counting with that z-man had a proposal for how to turn in almost any covenant into a kind of uh 5031 06:10:17,977 --> 06:10:23,097 you know like primitive primitive counting of of like lambda expressions with you know the 5032 06:10:23,097 --> 06:10:28,378 count going to 13 000 yeah but but see doesn't everyone see this is again me being autistic of 5033 06:10:28,378 --> 06:10:32,857 course but doesn't it aren't people even listening to themselves like it's all just nonsense this is 5034 06:10:32,857 --> 06:10:38,617 all just like whether or not we can count to 13 000 that's why i did the right thing when i just 5035 06:10:38,617 --> 06:10:44,937 made it count to 13 000 explicitly this is all it needs to do it's like you suffer from a 5036 06:10:44,937 --> 06:10:52,698 philosopher's fallacy i call it which is expecting humans in general to exercise reason and rationality 5037 06:10:52,698 --> 06:10:58,698 when not even philosophers themselves exercise it right so basically philosophy can never work 5038 06:10:58,698 --> 06:11:03,177 because philosophy is not a solution to any problem it's just a symptom of the underlying 5039 06:11:03,177 --> 06:11:08,218 human condition and it doesn't actually solve anything right it's just symptom it's not a 5040 06:11:08,218 --> 06:11:12,857 solution right so you're expecting bitcoiners to be rational no don't do that that's like 5041 06:11:13,497 --> 06:11:21,417 a bad idea humans in general never mind cult indoctrinated ossifier chanting you know uh 5042 06:11:21,977 --> 06:11:29,097 basically peanut gallery plebs out there you know alex the um the scenario you laid out earlier 5043 06:11:29,097 --> 06:11:33,497 like you know you could kind of there was like a one week period where fees went high 5044 06:11:34,458 --> 06:11:40,537 during ordinals where you could kind of feel the fear setting in yeah because you know 5045 06:11:40,537 --> 06:11:46,057 lightning started falling apart you saw yeah this year right and then people started like uh 5046 06:11:46,057 --> 06:11:53,258 looking to their their their choice leaders for answers and i feel like that's part of the 5047 06:11:53,258 --> 06:11:58,857 reason the reaction was to ordinals was so negative so anti-ordinals like there's a 5048 06:11:58,857 --> 06:12:05,018 variety of reasons a part of it is because like they could demonize ordinals as the problem 5049 06:12:06,857 --> 06:12:12,857 no the real problem was that the priests were being seen to be helpless right yeah the emperor 5050 06:12:12,857 --> 06:12:18,458 had no clothes right so yes right now the priest can condemn you on twitter and they can character 5051 06:12:18,458 --> 06:12:23,818 assassinate paul and say he's the devil incarnate or whatever and it seems to be working in a sense 5052 06:12:23,818 --> 06:12:27,977 because you know whenever there is like a vote on twitter paul is like outvoted three to one 5053 06:12:28,537 --> 06:12:33,737 but when it comes to ordinals which is the priest themselves blast that taproot soft fork 5054 06:12:33,737 --> 06:12:37,578 and they're completely helpless they don't even know what's coming to them because like what 5055 06:12:37,578 --> 06:12:42,698 you've seen in ordinals and inscriptions is less than one percent of one percent of the fee pressure 5056 06:12:42,698 --> 06:12:49,898 i'm confident of this because i'm telling you that the flood of data that's coming like anybody like 5057 06:12:49,898 --> 06:12:56,698 i anybody can simply like you know start create a web page that allows people to upload folders 5058 06:12:56,698 --> 06:13:02,857 in there and that's going to create like gigabytes upon gigabytes of fee pressure by the way uh by 5059 06:13:02,857 --> 06:13:08,698 the way guys paul actually kind of performed worse than the devil if you are talking about paul's 5060 06:13:10,297 --> 06:13:17,097 he's like incompetent devil you know no i i mean i mean like 60 percent of bitcoin has voted that 5061 06:13:17,097 --> 06:13:23,258 they would consider activating the soft fork that the devil proposed and paul is usually 5062 06:13:25,258 --> 06:13:30,857 i think that it's also important to see that um like just ordinals aside completely aside 5063 06:13:30,857 --> 06:13:34,778 i feel like a lot of these the the nigerian plebs opening and closing lightning channels 5064 06:13:34,778 --> 06:13:39,818 and complaining that they can't i feel like they just did not understand that the fee market they 5065 06:13:39,818 --> 06:13:43,258 really just didn't understand the fee market or they believe that bitcoin will never be like you 5066 06:13:43,258 --> 06:13:50,138 know mass adopted because if it's mad those real nigerians are we talking about i mean i've heard 5067 06:13:50,138 --> 06:13:53,258 people that were saying that they can't open a lightning channel and i'm like well open it once 5068 06:13:53,258 --> 06:13:56,458 in a month and they're like well it's too much or it's too expensive well they're complaining 5069 06:13:56,857 --> 06:14:01,018 they bought the propaganda that was sold to them about learning networks so i think they just all 5070 06:14:01,018 --> 06:14:04,937 the scaling problems right yeah i feel like they just didn't understand how the fee market works 5071 06:14:04,937 --> 06:14:08,937 with with bitcoin adoption like the fees are going to go up you should understand that and 5072 06:14:08,937 --> 06:14:13,737 actually you should want that right like you desire bitcoin to be more used without ordinals 5073 06:14:13,737 --> 06:14:18,458 even like the fees should go yeah the fees are going to go the apocalypse is inevitable either 5074 06:14:18,458 --> 06:14:23,258 way the ordinals just brought it two three years so well it's gonna it's gonna be interesting when 5075 06:14:23,338 --> 06:14:29,097 the fees go astronomical just based on monetary transactions then the reaction is going to be to 5076 06:14:29,097 --> 06:14:35,497 demonize certain types of monetary transactions as being not as valuable of monetary transactions as 5077 06:14:35,497 --> 06:14:41,497 others like like that's like because what other they're gonna have the same existential crisis 5078 06:14:41,497 --> 06:14:47,417 it's gonna have to be this exact same emperor has no clothes scenario well i mean i can tell 5079 06:14:47,417 --> 06:14:51,977 you what narrative they'll bring along then they will basically say you shouldn't use L1 bitcoin 5080 06:14:51,977 --> 06:14:57,097 but instead sign up with uncle jim who's running your local Fedimint for your neighborhood or for 5081 06:14:57,097 --> 06:15:03,417 your for your you know surfing game and then transactions uncle jim's Fedimint will be on L1 5082 06:15:03,417 --> 06:15:11,417 right have you guys seen that cringe animation from blockstream where 40 million uh tps is uh 5083 06:15:12,138 --> 06:15:19,177 can happen on lightning right that's the lie that's the big lie in reality yeah in reality bitcoin 5084 06:15:19,177 --> 06:15:26,537 does like sweet tps uh on average and and lightning got like 0.1 that that is probably 5085 06:15:26,537 --> 06:15:34,778 closer to the reality of the situation but they are pushing this uh yeah i i'm wondering over here 5086 06:15:34,778 --> 06:15:39,658 because like it seems like a lot of us believe that the fees will go up even you know without 5087 06:15:39,658 --> 06:15:44,698 ordinals it's an inevitable thing but of course with ordinals even more but i believe poll has 5088 06:15:44,698 --> 06:15:48,617 like a different opinion where fees would not go up or they would go up to a certain amount 5089 06:15:48,937 --> 06:15:56,138 i mean i would love that if the fees went up that would be great your opinion my opinion is very 5090 06:15:56,138 --> 06:16:01,177 simple i'd love to try to explain it yet again which is that people don't like it when the fees 5091 06:16:01,177 --> 06:16:06,617 go up so when the fees go up they they change their behavior and so alex i don't know you seem 5092 06:16:06,617 --> 06:16:11,097 to have studied this on ethereum in detail but people have brought up to you that they go to 5093 06:16:11,097 --> 06:16:15,658 binance smart chain or they went to solana or whatever yeah no i'm saying that will definitely 5094 06:16:15,658 --> 06:16:21,338 occur but you know that's because ethereum but don't you think ethereum built ethereum built the 5095 06:16:21,338 --> 06:16:26,378 L2s to solve that problem right but this is a difference between ethereum and bitcoin though 5096 06:16:26,378 --> 06:16:33,497 which is that right now bitcoin is paralyzed no no hatred binance and ethereum L2 ecosystem which 5097 06:16:33,497 --> 06:16:38,778 is binance is a different planet with a different asset people don't want to leave ethereum 5098 06:16:38,778 --> 06:16:44,457 basically there is two flaws in your argument that fees can never go high the easier flaw is that 5099 06:16:44,457 --> 06:16:50,217 you've analyzed so-called fee market in the past where i claim it never existed until maybe april 5100 06:16:50,217 --> 06:16:55,577 23rd this year that's a simpler kind of fallacy which is to assume that the fee market has existed 5101 06:16:55,577 --> 06:17:00,857 at all and i claim that it just cannot be set to exist until the last day that the mempool clears 5102 06:17:00,857 --> 06:17:05,418 right that's a simpler objection the more complicated objection is that you argue for 5103 06:17:05,418 --> 06:17:10,617 kind of substitutability of block space it's kind of an idealization that doesn't hold in 5104 06:17:10,617 --> 06:17:15,817 the real world because listen you know the property values in beverly hills california 5105 06:17:15,817 --> 06:17:20,538 are skyrocketed to 20 million dollars per mansion but i don't see those people moving to plano texas 5106 06:17:21,258 --> 06:17:25,178 right so this is but there is some but there is some price at which they would 5107 06:17:25,178 --> 06:17:31,018 right like if it costs right infinite 9 million 999 trillion dollars absolutely right so yes 5108 06:17:31,018 --> 06:17:36,778 there's a kernel of truth in what you're saying as well but my model that reconciles both positions 5109 06:17:36,778 --> 06:17:42,538 is this this kind of picture of a multi-level fountain where the top level bucket fills up 5110 06:17:42,538 --> 06:17:46,538 and then it starts spilling over into the second and third levels after that and that's exactly 5111 06:17:46,538 --> 06:17:51,737 what we saw in ethereum and that's exactly what happened here you know it's not really relevant 5112 06:17:51,737 --> 06:17:58,217 that much but let me here's here's sorry one one last remark despite the fees being 100x smaller 5113 06:17:58,217 --> 06:18:04,938 on ethereum L2s i never operate on ethereum L2s precisely because all the prices and all 5114 06:18:04,938 --> 06:18:11,577 the liquidity is so much more favorable on ethereum proper that the fact that i can save 5115 06:18:11,577 --> 06:18:20,058 you know 19 on a 20 fee by going to avalanche is more than offset by me losing 500 because 5116 06:18:20,058 --> 06:18:26,538 the prices on a swap on avalanche are less favorable so even though some people for very 5117 06:18:26,538 --> 06:18:32,778 small amounts will go to these L2s there is like a captive audience for L1 where it simply makes 5118 06:18:32,778 --> 06:18:39,418 no financial sense to leave ethereum okay first of all let me just mention this is not really that 5119 06:18:39,418 --> 06:18:47,337 important at all but the my empirical which is only one part of seven the empirical research i 5120 06:18:47,337 --> 06:18:56,538 did on the fees in my article which is uh whatever a merge mining uh security budget to merge mining 5121 06:18:56,538 --> 06:19:01,977 whatever i'm sure people can find it but um that was in order to discredit the people who say 5122 06:19:01,977 --> 06:19:08,857 there's an automatic upward trend in in p and i think you and i agree that it doesn't really work 5123 06:19:08,857 --> 06:19:13,018 like that it's not like because what people will do is they'll draw some kind of graph and they'll 5124 06:19:13,018 --> 06:19:17,658 say oh fees have gone up and up and up and they will continue to go up and up and up but that's 5125 06:19:17,658 --> 06:19:22,938 not really uh that doesn't make any sense at all in any way you know what i mean like they go up 5126 06:19:22,938 --> 06:19:29,097 for a reason like it's not like um unless you're just considering inflation it's not like a price 5127 06:19:29,097 --> 06:19:30,938 of a carpet that goes up 5128 06:19:30,843 --> 06:19:35,083 and it's 10 cents and then it's 15 cents and then it's 20 cents and it's 25 cent like 5129 06:19:35,643 --> 06:19:42,843 that's not really what's happening here this is like a crazily dynamic so so i agree with you that 5130 06:19:42,843 --> 06:19:49,323 um but it doesn't really matter because the theoretical thing is is far more important and 5131 06:19:49,883 --> 06:19:56,923 the idea of the substitutability of the block space uh let me just throw a see this is i 5132 06:19:56,923 --> 06:20:03,482 introduced a new argument that you decided not to run with which is i said a moment ago 5133 06:20:05,482 --> 06:20:12,602 ethereum is the type of culture that would build in L2 to solve its problem but uh do you think 5134 06:20:12,602 --> 06:20:18,683 that's actually the case here in bitcoin because of course you could easily just have people say 5135 06:20:19,642 --> 06:20:27,323 um you know this is what bitcoin is supposed to be about we see in ethereum the culture only 5136 06:20:27,323 --> 06:20:32,923 developed after they had their apocalypse and i don't think that's the case i'm saying they would 5137 06:20:32,923 --> 06:20:37,643 ethereum bill would they would they would like move fast and break things the whole time no it's 5138 06:20:37,643 --> 06:20:45,482 true but the but but until they actually because i mean ethereum promised to scale in in 2015 16 17 5139 06:20:46,442 --> 06:20:53,722 18 but they had their apocalypse in 2019 and until 2019 there were all these research projects 5140 06:20:53,722 --> 06:20:58,442 that never amounted to anything i mean they considered sites sidechains they consider 5141 06:20:58,442 --> 06:21:04,923 state channels they considered uh plasma they considered lots of yes i remember that they had 5142 06:21:04,923 --> 06:21:09,243 their own version of lightning and their own version of lightning was like generalized lightning 5143 06:21:09,243 --> 06:21:13,563 because it was for arbitrary computations not just for financial transfers right they called 5144 06:21:13,643 --> 06:21:20,203 they called it uh state channels payment channels right so they tried all these things but none of 5145 06:21:20,203 --> 06:21:26,122 it got serious enough to be actually included in the proper ethereum or anything right until 5146 06:21:26,762 --> 06:21:31,243 everybody's feet got held to the fire when when their apocalypse happened and there wasn't because 5147 06:21:31,243 --> 06:21:36,442 ethereum has a socialistic kind of ethos so when they promised the world the world computer that 5148 06:21:36,442 --> 06:21:41,322 you know anybody in the world can use and all of a sudden only whales and institutions are using it 5149 06:21:41,322 --> 06:21:45,962 and everybody else is stuck with their ether that they cannot even send because it costs 10 dollars 5150 06:21:45,962 --> 06:21:51,482 so 15 20 dollars to send a hundred dollars worth of ether that was a real you know shock to the 5151 06:21:51,482 --> 06:21:57,003 system and only after that point they actually got serious about scaling and having tried everything 5152 06:21:57,003 --> 06:22:03,083 they settled on validity and optimistic roll-ups right but why do you think that we would in 5153 06:22:03,083 --> 06:22:07,402 bitcoin handle it the same way because you can easily see us saying that well it's supposed 5154 06:22:07,402 --> 06:22:11,402 the fees are supposed to be a hundred dollars well but you know as you were saying a moment 5155 06:22:11,402 --> 06:22:16,363 ago you would kick it over to maybe fetamint but you understand that fetamint is not really a 5156 06:22:18,122 --> 06:22:23,322 you can make all the rationalizations that you want but even fetamints have to use lightning 5157 06:22:23,322 --> 06:22:28,682 network for interoperability right you can always send people to the blockchain blackrock 5158 06:22:29,242 --> 06:22:34,522 kind of etf but the thing is you already have a captive audience of 50 million bitcoiners who 5159 06:22:34,762 --> 06:22:41,723 store some fats on L1 and those people will get frozen out so that's that's the revolutionary 5160 06:22:41,723 --> 06:22:47,402 force of the of the pleb uprising it's not trying to sell it to new plebs because you can send new 5161 06:22:47,402 --> 06:22:53,003 plebs to blackrock but you cannot by the time the uprising happens so you're talking about the dust 5162 06:22:53,003 --> 06:23:00,762 UTXO right it will be like this is the thruster captive you know like lumpen proletariat out there 5163 06:23:01,322 --> 06:23:05,643 i did not understand that that was such a key part of your argument but it's very interesting 5164 06:23:05,643 --> 06:23:10,682 i think you're certainly right about that one thing that is was interesting in the past was that 5165 06:23:11,482 --> 06:23:14,203 roger at some point tweeted a website where you could look up 5166 06:23:15,803 --> 06:23:23,322 if someone searches my twitter you can probably find it search for the term one thousand dollars 5167 06:23:23,322 --> 06:23:30,203 i think um because he i tweeted about it after he tweeted about it because i was fascinated by it 5168 06:23:30,203 --> 06:23:37,083 but he he he's documented you can search on this site through the bitcoin btc blockchain and find 5169 06:23:37,083 --> 06:23:45,163 how many people paid a transaction fee that was more than a thousand dollars um because it just 5170 06:23:45,163 --> 06:23:50,843 multiplies by the historical price for you oh yeah yeah and there were and there were very very 5171 06:23:50,843 --> 06:23:54,682 many and that must mean that there was a lot of people who had these inputs that were not 5172 06:23:54,682 --> 06:24:01,402 consolidated and as a result well exchanges will pay a thousand dollar transaction fee to consolidate 5173 06:24:01,402 --> 06:24:07,082 you know a hundred thousand UTXOs no problem right like where where are you but just the fact that 5174 06:24:07,082 --> 06:24:13,323 that is even possible like the fact that that you know you know the fact that it even happened 5175 06:24:13,323 --> 06:24:19,883 is like well what i'm saying is that you you basically have this kind of the the laserite 5176 06:24:19,883 --> 06:24:24,682 priests have sown the seeds of their own destruction because they've essentially evangelized 5177 06:24:24,682 --> 06:24:29,483 bitcoin to 50 million global south plebs and by the time the apocalypse hits it will probably be 5178 06:24:29,483 --> 06:24:35,883 100 million and those people are all going to become hostages of high fees right you can you 5179 06:24:35,883 --> 06:24:40,603 can tell them so much to go to the uncle jim's you know Fedimint or you can tell them to 5180 06:24:40,603 --> 06:24:45,962 they cannot buy the black rock etf their local banking system is hostile they have to do you 5181 06:24:45,962 --> 06:24:51,082 know back alley peer-to-peer transactions for cash but they can't transfer their bitcoin that's 5182 06:24:51,082 --> 06:24:56,283 already stuck and you will see this outcry which we kind of saw a preview of an ethereum 5183 06:24:56,283 --> 06:25:01,962 where 100 million global south plebs cry out you know there's like a disturbance in the force 5184 06:25:01,962 --> 06:25:07,003 you could feel it in may this year like people pointed out that when when transaction fees 5185 06:25:07,003 --> 06:25:12,522 peaked at twenty dollars per financial transfer for a few days and it was like above ten dollars 5186 06:25:12,522 --> 06:25:17,082 for like a week or two you could feel that like people who are running their own lightning nodes 5187 06:25:17,082 --> 06:25:21,003 all of a sudden had all their channels closed automatically and they couldn't reopen them and 5188 06:25:21,003 --> 06:25:25,962 they lost money and they couldn't send a punishment transaction because the amount of money in the 5189 06:25:25,962 --> 06:25:31,563 channel was less than the transaction fee this is how lightning dies this is how non-custodial 5190 06:25:31,563 --> 06:25:36,362 lightning dies and i'm all for you know bank of america and mitsubishi bank in japan settling 5191 06:25:37,082 --> 06:25:43,642 with lightning instantaneously and with instant finality billion dollar private fat pipes and not 5192 06:25:43,642 --> 06:25:48,763 caring about the fees but don't sell lightning as a solution to the plebs on their iphones because 5193 06:25:48,763 --> 06:25:54,362 lightning can never be that right so we you and i know this but this is just the hard facts of the 5194 06:25:54,362 --> 06:25:59,883 lightning design but of course the priests have sold lightning as the silver bullet solution to 5195 06:25:59,883 --> 06:26:09,082 scaling and that was just a lie i think there's also a difference where um uh doing a you know 5196 06:26:09,082 --> 06:26:13,723 complicated transactions on ethereum you require liquidity and you know several assets and things 5197 06:26:13,723 --> 06:26:18,362 like this where it's not as easy for you to just use a different layer or even a different chain 5198 06:26:18,362 --> 06:26:23,802 for that purpose but if you're just settling value it might be much easier to just use a different 5199 06:26:23,802 --> 06:26:28,922 chain right no well it's easier for you if you're moving a hundred dollars or less but if you're 5200 06:26:28,922 --> 06:26:34,043 moving a million dollars worth of bitcoin whether you pay ten dollars one dollar or a thousand 5201 06:26:34,043 --> 06:26:39,402 dollars makes no difference this is all around let's just say let's say i want to move um you 5202 06:26:39,402 --> 06:26:43,642 know a million dollars of bitcoin and the transaction fees on layer one bitcoin versus 5203 06:26:43,642 --> 06:26:48,202 the transaction fees on using wbcc on ethereum right and if it's cheaper on ethereum let's just 5204 06:26:48,202 --> 06:26:52,763 say then i would be incentivized to do it on ethereum maybe to a point unless i know but 5205 06:26:52,763 --> 06:26:57,962 but wbcc is a different planet right it's a custodial synthetic asset it's not bitcoin it's 5206 06:26:57,962 --> 06:27:03,242 and it's right never mind that it's sitting on the galaxy right right but for the majority of 5207 06:27:03,242 --> 06:27:09,242 plebs use cases right they might be okay with that well the majority of plebs have been told 5208 06:27:09,242 --> 06:27:14,043 to do the following they've been told to have a strike wallet that has like a hundred dollars 5209 06:27:14,043 --> 06:27:20,043 worth of usd stablecoin issued by strike and then they keep their savings that they stack into which 5210 06:27:20,043 --> 06:27:25,723 is uh in global south it's like a thousand bucks or less and in the middle income countries it's 5211 06:27:25,723 --> 06:27:30,763 like a thousand to ten thousand and high income countries is maybe more but that stash that's 5212 06:27:30,763 --> 06:27:37,962 sitting in savings that stash becomes a hostage of high fees and you know once the fees go high enough 5213 06:27:38,763 --> 06:27:43,082 they will hate moving that stash around and they have to move it around right because if they want 5214 06:27:43,082 --> 06:27:48,283 to sell or collateralize bitcoin or give it to their kids or whatever they have to do transactions 5215 06:27:48,283 --> 06:27:53,323 once the fees are perma high these people have become loom panthroletariat who've been duped by 5216 06:27:53,323 --> 06:28:01,323 the priests into storing their money in something that gets frozen into ice so you think one way or 5217 06:28:01,323 --> 06:28:07,082 another in the future we're going to get sidechains that have trustless swaps eventually 5218 06:28:07,803 --> 06:28:13,322 once this apocalypse happens and it you know catalyzes the pleb uprising you will essentially 5219 06:28:13,322 --> 06:28:21,882 have excitement in other words the reason why people in core core maintainers loathe to merge 5220 06:28:21,962 --> 06:28:27,163 any soft fork right now is because they will be condemned by the priest but once there's political 5221 06:28:27,163 --> 06:28:33,882 cover from the pleb uprising not merging a soft fork will be suicidal if it allows arc to get 5222 06:28:33,882 --> 06:28:39,163 launched you know you know what i mean if it allows scaling of lightning launching of arc 5223 06:28:39,163 --> 06:28:45,322 drivechain it will become very unpopular not to merge a non-controversial soft fork that's been 5224 06:28:45,322 --> 06:28:50,762 reviewed for 10 years like you know basically drivechains are coming up on 10 years you know 5225 06:28:50,762 --> 06:28:55,723 this is insane but i can't believe it that we're even like discussing this 10 years later what i'm 5226 06:28:55,723 --> 06:29:00,522 saying is it'll flip right now it's suicidal for core maintainers to merge something because 5227 06:29:00,522 --> 06:29:06,123 the ossifier chanters will have their skull on twitter but once the pleb uprising happens it 5228 06:29:06,123 --> 06:29:12,043 will be the opposite it will be suicidal to sit back and do nothing that's your point so the 5229 06:29:12,043 --> 06:29:16,442 political and like the social aspect would start to change yeah right because because people 5230 06:29:16,442 --> 06:29:21,962 underestimate politics because it's so structureless and diffuse inside core but core is 5231 06:29:21,962 --> 06:29:27,562 essentially a politics of prestige right there is like a hierarchy of prestigious devs that all 5232 06:29:27,562 --> 06:29:33,483 defer to other more prestigious devs until it you know that that thing terminates with g maxwell or 5233 06:29:33,483 --> 06:29:39,082 peter woolley or something but the point is that it's like a culture of fear based on lack of 5234 06:29:39,082 --> 06:29:44,123 information and and everybody holding their own belief about the prestige and right now in that 5235 06:29:44,202 --> 06:29:49,882 culture merging anything is suicidal because the priest and the laser eyes and and you know 5236 06:29:49,882 --> 06:29:55,642 sailor rights etc will will have your skull for this but once that whole thing the whole laser 5237 06:29:55,642 --> 06:30:00,923 right thing of don't touch bitcoin is shown to be bankrupt because it throws out 50 million 5238 06:30:00,923 --> 06:30:07,163 plebs in the global south once that whole ideology is bankrupt then the political environment will 5239 06:30:07,163 --> 06:30:13,723 change i think you're right i think you're very very right on this actually except for except 5240 06:30:13,723 --> 06:30:21,483 for one thing which is i don't think we need to wait for a play uprising of you know bitcoin users 5241 06:30:21,483 --> 06:30:28,603 in the global south then for fees to rise in that way um well you don't need to wait but you know 5242 06:30:28,603 --> 06:30:32,202 as i say it has to get worse before it gets better right because the cult is so strong 5243 06:30:32,843 --> 06:30:38,442 you essentially can't break the spell of the cult until it's shown to be completely bankrupt right 5244 06:30:39,163 --> 06:30:44,923 yeah it needs to get worse but but luckily it is so like the the fees are going up going up 5245 06:30:45,642 --> 06:30:50,603 no but it's not enough for fees to go up they have to break 10 to 20 dollars and then stay 5246 06:30:50,603 --> 06:30:56,043 there for a month or two i think that's a trigger that's a trigger point for for the 5247 06:30:56,043 --> 06:31:01,562 people that's a good goal for 2024 i think well i mean that would happen naturally in the bull 5248 06:31:01,562 --> 06:31:05,723 market but you know in the previous bull market the fees would spike high for a week or two 5249 06:31:05,723 --> 06:31:10,603 and then they would subside but this time it's like it's going to be a non-linear response 5250 06:31:10,603 --> 06:31:16,442 because in that bull market there will be you know inscription enjoyers you know dumping gigabytes of 5251 06:31:16,442 --> 06:31:21,642 data in there there will be financial transactions 10xing there'll be lightning activity you know 5252 06:31:22,442 --> 06:31:28,043 all of that i think i think yeah like the reason that you know in 2017 you had high fees for 5253 06:31:29,723 --> 06:31:33,882 in my opinion a more sustained period of time than in the last bull market and i think that's 5254 06:31:33,882 --> 06:31:40,283 because speculators were using bitcoin to move value between exchanges now now they use and now 5255 06:31:40,283 --> 06:31:49,723 they didn't yeah like exactly by the way but the nice thing is sorry but the nice thing is that 5256 06:31:49,723 --> 06:31:55,562 the speculators are back and they're back now in a bear market but they're not but they're 5257 06:31:55,562 --> 06:31:59,002 not moving value between exchanges using bitcoin right there you know but they're 5258 06:31:59,002 --> 06:32:02,683 moving all in all they're moving brc20s and they're moving like a bunch of stuff so the 5259 06:32:02,683 --> 06:32:08,442 speculators are back in a way that they were not in bitcoin for like what five six years 5260 06:32:09,082 --> 06:32:15,002 and now is the bear market but once a bull market starts the speculators are going to go crazy 5261 06:32:15,002 --> 06:32:19,002 oh yeah i mean that's inevitable you will definitely break a hundred dollar fee i mean 5262 06:32:19,002 --> 06:32:22,603 i can make a bet with anyone that in the next bull market you will have one day of hundred 5263 06:32:22,603 --> 06:32:30,202 dollar or higher fees there's also a few points i want to make that um one thing is i'm not an 5264 06:32:30,202 --> 06:32:36,043 expert on arc but from what i understand you still have to settle on chain uh like the shared UTXO 5265 06:32:36,043 --> 06:32:42,522 right so i'm not sure if that will definitely like help like no you don't have to you you don't have 5266 06:32:42,522 --> 06:32:49,803 to settle on chain with arc in the only the only case when you actually have to unroll an arc 5267 06:32:49,803 --> 06:32:56,762 pool transaction into the full ctv tree or whatever covenant is used the only the only time 5268 06:32:56,762 --> 06:33:05,562 is if the asp is trying to steal from the users if the users uh uh mobile clients or whatever 5269 06:33:05,562 --> 06:33:11,483 warn them that everybody accepts arc or lightning right but if you're still trying to send this to 5270 06:33:11,483 --> 06:33:15,803 somewhere that's not accepting arc or lightning you still have to settle on chain right i mean 5271 06:33:15,803 --> 06:33:23,642 you can you can send on lightning from arc and and and back so um okay great so and then just 5272 06:33:23,642 --> 06:33:28,202 one more point um as far as like all the other type of proposals for sidechains from what i've 5273 06:33:28,202 --> 06:33:33,322 seen and and maybe uh there's ones that i didn't look at or understand well um most of them do not 5274 06:33:33,322 --> 06:33:38,283 seem like they're they're they're giving the fees of the sidechain to the bitcoin miners on L1 5275 06:33:38,283 --> 06:33:45,723 is that correct yeah i think currently that's not a popular idea and i wanted to say i absolutely 5276 06:33:45,723 --> 06:33:51,882 love that you guys are making predictions on what will happen and nobody said that federated side 5277 06:33:51,882 --> 06:33:58,843 chains are going to uh get an uptake or get recommended we don't need to predict we don't 5278 06:33:58,843 --> 06:34:02,923 need to predict we have like 10 years of history and no one cares so there's no need to like make 5279 06:34:02,923 --> 06:34:09,562 predictions about federated sidechain i am but a fee apocalypse is is like putting a strong pressure 5280 06:34:09,562 --> 06:34:16,762 on this so i'm not sure it's the same situation exactly but but uh i i love the vibe 5281 06:34:17,082 --> 06:34:21,882 it's definitely an exciting time to be in bitcoin that's for sure i think it's a very bizarre 5282 06:34:21,882 --> 06:34:29,402 decision to not care about the fact that the fees don't go to miners which many people have have 5283 06:34:29,402 --> 06:34:38,202 taken up uh out of this weird misguided fear of not quote distorting mining incentives unquote 5284 06:34:39,163 --> 06:34:44,603 but that is a very bizarre thing to do because in order to enter sidechains i'm talking about 5285 06:34:45,483 --> 06:34:51,962 i'm talking about how people would maybe push for like arc or lightning or Fedimint 5286 06:34:54,442 --> 06:35:00,442 these things cut the miners out and and a federated sidechain they also cut the miners 5287 06:35:00,442 --> 06:35:05,882 out of course all of these things cut the miners out and even if you don't believe 5288 06:35:05,882 --> 06:35:14,442 in security budget i just find it strange that you would want to go blindly into something 5289 06:35:14,442 --> 06:35:20,363 where in order to get out and in you need the miners help but now they have no real reason 5290 06:35:21,322 --> 06:35:27,082 to help you and in fact they would love nothing more than to direct economic activity towards 5291 06:35:27,962 --> 06:35:34,123 something where they do collect the fees such as the merge-mined drivechain i wonder i don't know 5292 06:35:34,123 --> 06:35:38,123 if this is the case i have absolutely no idea whatsoever but i just tossed this out there for 5293 06:35:38,123 --> 06:35:45,402 your consideration if one day there will be a point where miners just say they will try to ban 5294 06:35:46,283 --> 06:35:52,923 transactions into and out of all the L2s that do not pay them to just kind of tilt people's 5295 06:35:54,603 --> 06:35:57,642 support into ones that do pay them 5296 06:36:00,683 --> 06:36:05,082 yeah this is a weird thing because uh like there is not enough block space 5297 06:36:05,082 --> 06:36:12,043 for people to be self-serving with the lightning use at a global scale already and 5298 06:36:14,043 --> 06:36:21,243 even even if you count solutions like arc they they take up a significant amount of block space 5299 06:36:21,243 --> 06:36:29,322 they pay fees to the miners at a pretty predictable rate by normal operation and they the esps also 5300 06:36:29,322 --> 06:36:35,003 have to maintain these lightning channels and these lightning channels need to be rebalanced 5301 06:36:35,003 --> 06:36:43,322 with splicing and whatever so at a sufficient scale i'm not sure uh that uh that uh the bitcoin 5302 06:36:43,322 --> 06:36:51,243 block size is anywhere near uh enough to support all these on on as a layer two so i kind of expect 5303 06:36:51,243 --> 06:36:57,003 that that a lot of this thing have to move to layer three on sidechains on on top of side 5304 06:36:57,003 --> 06:37:03,322 chains that have many advantages and cross-chain lightning is basically like pretty trivial to 5305 06:37:03,322 --> 06:37:10,603 implement and if people would not be worried about the uh the exchange rate risk with an 5306 06:37:10,603 --> 06:37:19,243 altcoin then it would be very easy to to uh hold your UTXOs on an altcoin chain and and still 5307 06:37:19,243 --> 06:37:24,123 interface with the lightning network that is also a pretty easy solution so 5308 06:37:24,763 --> 06:37:29,562 hey guys i got to bounce i just want to say uh enjoy the conversation uh paul look forward to 5309 06:37:29,562 --> 06:37:35,243 seeing you in amsterdam uh and uh we'll we'll try to have some fun catch y'all later enjoy 5310 06:37:38,042 --> 06:37:39,322 hey thanks for stopping by 5311 06:37:43,802 --> 06:37:51,643 perhaps we should wind it down it's been lots of fun um i can continue but i do think 5312 06:37:51,643 --> 06:37:58,523 but i do think we've been going for a while what do you guys think okay well let's have next week 5313 06:37:59,162 --> 06:38:04,922 actually next week i'll be in amsterdam doing the event so probably won't be here next week 5314 06:38:09,162 --> 06:38:09,662 no 5315 06:38:12,603 --> 06:38:16,202 a lot of people asked me uh before miami if i'm getting security 5316 06:38:16,202 --> 06:38:19,562 oh my god no people were ridiculous 5317 06:38:22,202 --> 06:38:26,363 but this does go to show how easily things get out of hand you know 5318 06:38:28,763 --> 06:38:33,162 say the least you know like where i'm talking about like people have certain ideas in mind 5319 06:38:33,162 --> 06:38:41,802 and the ideas spread and then they the idea sort of uh legitimize the dehumanization of people and 5320 06:38:42,682 --> 06:38:47,562 yeah like that crazy person you guys played at the beginning of your show like what is that 5321 06:38:49,562 --> 06:38:55,562 like what was that guy talking about and then people always think oh this is gonna hurt my 5322 06:38:55,562 --> 06:39:01,643 children's future because you're messing with my bitcoin you know like oh my god 5323 06:39:03,883 --> 06:39:06,282 yeah i wish there was less of that i wish people just like 5324 06:39:07,082 --> 06:39:11,483 that you know it's like hey listen i want bitcoin to be better just as much as you do right 5325 06:39:12,282 --> 06:39:17,962 yeah it's really you know like without actual knowledge who's to say it's not them them who's 5326 06:39:17,962 --> 06:39:22,843 ruining their own children's future like you know we're on the same team we want the same thing 5327 06:39:22,843 --> 06:39:26,922 we just have different ideas for what the best thing is right like hear me out i'll hear you 5328 06:39:26,922 --> 06:39:30,123 out let's all talk together let's be friends after let's give each other a handshake after 5329 06:39:30,123 --> 06:39:35,483 you know like oh my god alex we've got another one another one who believes in rationality 5330 06:39:35,483 --> 06:39:43,003 i think i think the most and i think the most like the vast majority of bitcoiners 5331 06:39:43,003 --> 06:39:49,802 yeah are kind of on the same page on those things but you've got people like you know 5332 06:39:50,363 --> 06:39:56,042 you've got people like saifedean i remember his his his tweets about how drivechains are 5333 06:39:56,042 --> 06:40:02,682 going to destroy his family's future in lebanon or something and like that's that's not that's 5334 06:40:02,682 --> 06:40:08,603 intentional like that is that's not like oh we we we all won uh 5335 06:40:09,723 --> 06:40:16,282 coin or not that's not it that's that's just pure politics yeah and you know some some of 5336 06:40:16,282 --> 06:40:20,442 these people are you know and of course many of these people are just such a horrible lie if they 5337 06:40:20,442 --> 06:40:25,562 just will lie about anything uh and it's it's not even you know like i don't know who's who lies 5338 06:40:25,562 --> 06:40:29,802 and who's saying the truth i'm just saying like it's not it's not it's it's unfortunately not 5339 06:40:30,682 --> 06:40:36,202 single person that you look at is has the same interests you know like some people are just here 5340 06:40:36,202 --> 06:40:42,763 to sell books and speaker slots you know they're not everyone is here to uh establish bitcoin's 5341 06:40:42,763 --> 06:40:49,802 future i think it's also part of it that they they talk among each other like not in public 5342 06:40:49,802 --> 06:40:56,922 they they talk about it among each other but uh reading the beep is not very popular among them 5343 06:40:56,922 --> 06:41:02,442 so they they kind of just just make shit up and they believe what each other is telling 5344 06:41:07,483 --> 06:41:10,363 anyways uh moonsetter are you a pro ctv person 5345 06:41:13,243 --> 06:41:21,243 i'm not particularly i'm very interested however in in in figuring out you know uh how things are 5346 06:41:21,243 --> 06:41:28,603 and uh and as i said before if it can if it cannot be demonstrated that it will hurt the 5347 06:41:28,603 --> 06:41:35,003 outcomes of those that don't opt in explicitly then i believe it is it does not stand on moral 5348 06:41:35,962 --> 06:41:38,763 opposite that that's my stance 5349 06:41:49,802 --> 06:41:53,243 all right guys it's late over here in europe so i'll probably go 5350 06:41:53,243 --> 06:41:59,723 but if you guys want to hang out then by all means hang out that's okay we'll we'll allow 5351 06:41:59,723 --> 06:42:05,643 you to end this yeah we'll be going on for like seven hours right it's been a nice space 5352 06:42:06,442 --> 06:42:11,883 really wow yeah i'm gonna like a lot of times i like to listen to these because i miss it i can't 5353 06:42:11,883 --> 06:42:16,282 like sit here for the whole seven hours yeah we put them on the website i think yeah we put 5354 06:42:16,282 --> 06:42:21,162 them on layer2labs.com someone make sure that they're all still going up on 2x speed and just 5355 06:42:21,162 --> 06:42:29,243 like you know blast through it real quick but yeah thanks for the spaces yeah all made possible 5356 06:42:29,243 --> 06:42:37,082 because we have great guests who come and ask a great question so thanks to all you guys as well 5357 06:42:39,802 --> 06:42:44,603 see you guys later i'll leave you guys if you all leave then i guess the space will end but 5358 06:42:44,603 --> 06:42:52,442 otherwise it will continue all right bye everyone bye good night later guys have a have a great 5359 06:42:52,442 --> 06:42:53,890 weekend