Hello everyone, this is Adam Meister, the Bitcoin Meister, the Disrupt Meister, welcome

to the OneBitcoin Show.

Today is June 30th of 2026, strong hand, value your wealth in Bitcoin, buying over crying,

offended by selling, one day closer to an all-time high, and Bitcoin always returns

to its all-time high.

All right, strong hand people, you know I've been waiting for this moment since 2018.

You know I loved it in 2017 when they were giving us those free forks and I came up with

the term crypto dividend, it's a one-time crypto dividend when they create the B-cash,

the B-gold, the B-this, the B-that, the eCash that's coming out now on August the 21st,

if all goes well and if something goes wrong it'll be in November, oh yeah, Paul Sztorc

like sports is here to talk about eCash, he's a long-time Bitcoin guy, he's been here probably

longer since I've held Bitcoin since 2013, I think he's probably been here longer than

me, but we're here to talk about the eCash, we'll be getting it for free baby if we do

everything right.

So Paul, welcome to the OneBitcoin show that I used to do every day but now I just do every

once in a while because yeah, whatever, how are you doing?

I'm doing great, thanks for that incredible introduction.

All right, all right, so we're going to go over how this is exactly going to work because

there's a lot of people that have not been through this before, they weren't around in

2017, in fact, I want everybody to go to eCash.com, that's his site, but he does, it's linked

to below and his Twitter is linked to below, he does a Twitter space every week and they're

very informative and he's very calm and he answers, he's a good explainer of things.

Now he's a tech guy, so sometimes things get kind of complicated, so I'm going to try to

bring it down to a non-tech level here, so I want people just to check that out, he's

going to do one later in the day on Twitter and they're a lot of fun, although it's really

weird to listen to a Twitter space on your laptop because it just keeps cutting off and

they need to work on it, I think they just want people to listen on their phones.

Anyway, pound that like button everybody, first of all, you're the drive chain, say

why you're doing this first and then we'll go into the logistics.

Well, you know, I think Bitcoin is kind of doomed if it doesn't reach 8 billion users,

Satoshi has this quote where he says in 20 years there's either going to be a very large

transaction volume or no volume, and he said that about 17 years ago, so it's more than

just drive chain being a good idea, in the Bitcoin community the culture has become defective

and it now rejects every good idea, so even simple ideas like Opcat, which were in the

original client and there were only 13 lines of code and all these people stalked everyone,

so we've just become a deranged community, we take a lot for granted, a lot of people

just say it's a foregone conclusion that Bitcoin will succeed, I don't think any of that's

true at all, I think we have to work really hard, we need adoption, we need network effect,

our competitors are going to be innovating as fast as they possibly can, this includes

all stable coins, this includes the fiat currencies, this includes WeChat Pay, so everyone is in

a big race, I see it, to get to 8 billion users and until we reach that point we won't

be safe and so we need, that's what we need, and so we need innovation, we need people

who are going to work hard, we need a lot of stuff and I don't think we're going to

get it in BTC.

I think it's very interesting you point out the derangement, I think the derangement has

always been there, I call it the Bitcoin inquisition, if you're not pure all these people come after

you, but the funny thing is, we only know about this in Twitter land, there are people

that are, they don't even know what a fork is, there was a guy on your Twitter space,

he was skilled enough to be on a Twitter space, but he actually thought that you were creating

this e-cash and it would automatically replace his Bitcoin and so, do you remember that guy?

I mean, you've had all, we'll talk about the lovely people, I've had some weird people,

oh there are some crazy people, there are these people obsessed, they made a meme coin

on Solana about e-cash and so they somehow convinced you, okay, it's free marketing for

e-cash, but it's not e-cash, so when e-cash gets created some of them are going to get

Every darn time these Solana people are asking you about this Bitcoin, it's nonsense, it's

a joke and it's, let's focus, and so I'm about to say let's focus, I'm not focusing at all

here because I'm letting these things distract me, but so okay, you're frustrated with Bitcoin,

drive chains basically allow, I mean, I want to do a simple explanation, lets you do all

sorts of Ethereum type of things on it, lets you build all sorts of stuff on top of Bitcoin

and miners get paid more instead of, because one of the fears is that miners are not going

to want to mine Bitcoin anymore because it's not going to be enough money and this is going

to be another source of income, this drive chain thing, drive chains were never implemented,

so now you're saying, okay, I'm creating, I'm forking off my own Bitcoin and it's going

to have drive chains and so maybe it will become, and it's going to be called e-cash,

I don't like the name because there was already an e-cash fork which leads to confusion, but

whatever, and those freaks are angry and of course the worshippers of Craig Wright are always angry,

but one of the things that you think could happen is that, well, maybe people will see

how awesome drive chains are on this fork and they'll just implement it on Bitcoin and then

your fork would be, you would almost admit that it would be worthless at that point, correct?

That's right, so it's kind of like there's a built-in trap door to get out of any criticism

of this project which is that you could just, you could try to kill the project at any time

by doing what I was doing for the last 10 years, trying to say we should just have

the 300 drive chain L2s on Bitcoin, so yeah, the sidechain idea is very old,

like of course Blockstream and all these people, but even like in 2013, this idea was just the

answer to what if we want to change the protocol and it was like, well, we can have a different

protocol that's also blockchain, people can send their coins there, we can have as many as we want,

this is a very old idea, Satoshi himself invented merge mining and it's been in use since 2011

continuously, we merged my name coin for example, so all this idea of there being many different

chains that have some connection but are mostly independent, that idea is much older

than the altcoin idea, the idea that there would be a litecoin or that there would be like a name

coin or that there would be, so this idea was kicked around for a very long time and I was

happy to wait because BTC has done very, very well, the price has gone way up, overall things

have gone very well for BTC over the last 15 years, but now I think there's just no way up

from here, we can't get to the next level, like if you had these levels of just like,

down below you're getting like level one, level two, that's like being worth 10 cents or being

worth one dollar, this is like, is the project a joke, is it real, then when you get to the top

level you have to be like, is it used by 8 billion people, so we can't get there with, we have

all these types of people, we have miners who are very apathetic and absentee, we got crazy Michael

Saylor, we got all these other, we got crazy Twitter people, the official policy, you were

talking about the Twitter bubble, Ava Chao, so Ava Chao is like an extremely senior dev person,

they were telling me, oh like if something's controversial on Twitter we just won't touch it,

we won't, then you know other people, people who work at Blockstream are like, oh that's not true,

why would they say, why would anyone, why would I say that Ava Chao said that, meanwhile Ava

Chao has tweeted this publicly, so the whole thing is a giant tangled mess and I don't think it can

be fixed with just argument and persuasion at this point, I think we are too far gone.

Well there's two things I wanted to nitpick on there real quick, because I do want to get to like,

but you know, you're creating a, I wouldn't say it's a friendly fork, but it's not an evil fork,

you don't want to kill Bitcoin, there's that, you said the Tractory, it could

implement what you wanted and then yeah, then that would be cool.

Yeah, it's a demonstration, in addition to a competitor, it's also kind of a demonstration

of what BTC could do, or it could be, so I think that's a good thing, it's until you have a real

demonstration with like all the details ironed out and like this is exactly what it would look

like, it's much harder for people to make up their mind about whether or not it's something

they would support. But now let's talk about one thing, you keep bringing up the 8 billion,

and I don't think in, to be successful it needs to reach 8 billion people,

and also there's the question of ossification, and I am a fan of ossification because

if you take the, let's take the United States dollar right now, the United States financial

system, we have a president who stepped in, who keeps on changing policy all the darn time,

and financial markets, what they love beyond anything is stability and predictability,

so that's what I think Bitcoin, one of the things I personally love about Bitcoin,

and I value about Bitcoin, I know it's going to be the same now as it is going to be in 10 years,

the financial policy isn't going to change, there's not a Ben Bernanke, there's not a,

they're not changing the interest rate every month, you don't have to worship one individual

that's going to say some mythical thing about an interest rate, you know what Bitcoin is,

so I think some people are like, it's very difficult to make a change unless Bitcoin's

about to die or something like that, like a quantum change, I could see being made very

quick, like okay, it's obvious we're on the verge of quantum, we need to do this,

now when you analyze the changes that you have suggested, they're really not going to change,

they're not going to change what Bitcoin exactly is at its core financially, and there's still

only going to be 21 million, et cetera, et cetera, so that stability will still be there,

but they're going to be, the argument for ossification, like you aren't, is there,

because it's just like, people love predictability, and it is the most predictable

financial asset in humanity right now, and some might say, well, a lot of people aren't

going to understand what you want to do, so there are going to be some big people on Wall Street

that are going to be like, oh no, it's changing, if they actually implemented your BIP, if they

actually implemented your BIP, so that's one thing holding back implementation right there,

I just want to say that, and then I personally, I think that the market has spoken, and that

most people just want to buy and hold, and then there's a whole lot of other people who can't

even do that, who their way they're exposed to Bitcoin is through Michael Sandler, which is not

a wise thing to do, because always buy the underlying asset, people, that's one of my

sayings here, pound that like button, if you've got questions, type them in the chat, by the way,

people, always buy, so again, a lot of people blame Sandler for all these problems, people have to

take personal responsibility here, you don't have to buy his fake thing, well, yeah, of course,

people should have bought the underlying, you could go to Coinbase, it's so simple,

so sorry, I've rambled on there, I don't know if you want to, you know, push back on the

ossification, I grabbed a pen, and I wrote down, so I got four points that I think you made,

the last one about Michael Sandler, I mean, this is a basic finance 101 idea that, you know, you

should have comparative advantage, if you go down to the bakery and buy some bread, it should be

because it's much easier for them to bake good bread than it is for you, and so that's, the trade

is always a good deal for both people, and the fundamental problem with the treasury companies

is that it's very, very impossible to believe that him buying Bitcoin is better than you buying

Bitcoin, because he's got all his agency costs, he might lose the coins, he's got to pay for lawyers,

he's got to pay for his private jet or whatever, so he's got to pay taxes, he's got to do, you know,

stock reports or whatever else they're doing, so it's basically not possible, and that means

instead of being beneficial for both parties, it's got to be harmful to at least one, possibly both,

but, so this is the game he's stuck playing with respect to, like, preferreds versus debt versus

convertible debt versus the underlying shares versus the coins, it's kind of like, no matter,

no matter what he does, since he's just rearranging things, it's very hard for it to

add any value, and so, but people thought, he built this cult around himself, so of course people

thought temporarily that what he was doing was actually something that was useful, and that

caused all these other people to copy him, to emulate him to their demise, this would be like,

you know, MetaPlanet, NACA, whatever, everyone thought this is a huge distraction for the

for the entire industry, so that's unfortunate. Now, okay, to go back to the first point

about, well, okay, let's go to the second point, the ossification point, very important point,

which is that, I think, you know, side chains are honestly the optimal form of ossification,

I think it's a, it's basically a myth that something can just persist for the sake of

persisting, I don't think that that, you know, has ever been true, I mean, you can maybe think

of a couple things like Arabic numerals, like, but they're, they persist because they're really,

really, really good at their job, they're perfectly, they're perfectly matched, you know,

they're much better than a Roman numeral, where you have to maybe subtract, and it's hard to do,

or, but, you know, even stuff like a language, where keeping the definitions consistent is ideal,

even then, the language constantly is evolving, you can have words like Kafka-esque,

or you have, like, the clavicular, like, looks maxing, like, slang, there's always slang,

there's always, there's always jargon, it's very, very, it's a total myth that we all speak

one language, like, there's a whole branch of Bitcoin jargon, econ jargon, where people don't

know about this, people know about, like, what is a Pareto improvement, or, you know, what is a

put-call option parity, or something like that, so, like, so there's all this jargon,

these things are constantly evolved, the challenge is, if you have something like

the Roman Empire, which is, it has, it appears stable for a very long time, and then the Black

Swan event kills it off completely, it turns out, becomes maximally unstable at that point,

so that's the, that's the challenge is, you know, do you, how can you maintain as much stability

as you can, while also accommodating for stuff like innovation, the world changing around you,

you know, when Bitcoin was invented, I don't think that many people even had a smartphone,

because what the iPhone was, like, 2000, maybe, like, 2008 or something was the first iPhone,

I don't know the exact year, but, so the world's changing a lot, internet speeds improve,

people's expectations change, the fiat currencies continue to commit suicide, so it's like,

there's lots and lots of dynamism in the world, and you have to process it somehow, and the side

chain says you can keep L1, you can keep all the L2s, and you can always add a new L2 whenever

you want, when you add a new L2 side chain, it does not affect any of the previous ones, so this

is the perfect way of keeping L1 the same, while still allowing for experimentation. As you point

out, though, instead of having this on BTC, which would be ideal, I have to create it in this new way

with something else, so that is, that would be a new, you know, that would be something that's not

very ossified when you hard fork and create a completely new asset, but I think, unfortunately,

in this case, it's an extraordinary circumstance, because we have kind of, I don't know what other

options we have, because it's been a really long time, BTC is not adding any, even something like

opcat, which is very simple and very beneficial, you know, that that's not going to help,

so it's not going to help if we live in a situation where we can't even get that,

after years and years of debate, we have people talking about 110 and all, we have people talking

about all kinds of nonsense, so ultimately, I think that this is an issue. This relates to the

other point about buy and hold, which is that it's not, it's a chicken and egg problem, it's not that

people have decided that all they want to do is buy and hold, it's the entire ecosystem is set up

so that only buy and hold is like the easy thing to do, it's like you have a Swiss army knife and

everything else is rusted away, except for the bottle opener or something, so it's like, okay,

people prefer to only use this thing, but it's because all the other stuff doesn't work,

you know, we've had lots of, so 110 is a perfect example of that, about not only do we not

seek growth, we don't seek growth, we don't seek adoption, we don't seek new customers,

we're not trying to please the customers, we're not trying to keep people happy, we're not trying

to get more transactions, instead we chase these people away and we say it's bad if you use

Bitcoin in a certain way, it has to be approved by Luke, or it's not a valid use of Bitcoin, so

we chase, we're actively chasing customers away, we chase, we have terrible technology that doesn't

work, such as the lightning network, there's a huge amount of time and money that's been invested in,

basically doesn't work, and then you have this kind of sour grapes attitude with respect to

stuff like privacy, Zcash, or somebody say, oh, we never wanted that, you know, Ethereum,

we never wanted smart contracts on Bitcoin, even though, of course, in the past everyone wanted

privacy on Bitcoin, everyone wanted smart contracts on Bitcoin, everyone wanted transactions,

so this is just the, this pessimism has set in over 17 years of failure, but I think that that

could reverse it very easily, if, you know, one clue that it has reversed is that stable coins,

those are taking off, those get enormous use and enormous adoption, stable coins are mostly USDT,

which is on Tether, which is on the Omni protocol, that was originally something called Mastercoin,

that was on BTC, all this was originally a BTC project, the whole thing was originally a BTC

Maximus project, and it only left kicking and screaming, it got dragged onto these other

chains, onto Ethereum, where it mostly is now, and Solana, and Tron, so that shows you that there

is some adoption for some crypto stuff, where it's a US dollar, but you have your own private

keys, you roll their own, you know, when you have your own 12-word seed phrase, so I think it's

not true that people have decided like a priori that they only want to buy and hold, I think that's

just because, it's just a function of the fact that we failed to produce useful software in Bitcoin,

and then we cope about it, I think, that's what I think. Well, I gotta give you credit on something

here, I love that I'm gonna get a free coin, and I'll be able to turn into Bitcoin, but you have

conviction in your beliefs on what Bitcoin should be, and one of the good things about Bitcoin is

that if you really think things aren't going your way, and you really believe you have the right

idea, you just simply fork off, you're not, you're not like, you're not going crazy on people, you're

not attacking, you're not trying to make laws, and you know, some of these people are, I mean,

they're demagogues, they're, I don't know, they want to be members of cults, they want strong

leaders, and stuff like that, they want some centralized thing, you're taking decentralization

and conviction to its logical end here, so I really do give you credit, and it will be

interesting to experiment with these drive chains on your fork, but let's get

into exactly what's going to happen on August 21st, because I think a lot of people

need a simple explanation. In order to get the coin, we're going to have to use your software,

and basically type in our private keys of our Bitcoin, which is a very, obviously, a dangerous

thing to do, and you even do not recommend doing that right away. You say, you know,

just don't just trust me, see if it's actually working for people, but with, and replay,

replay protection is a complicated matter that a lot of people aren't going to understand,

that, you know, you can explain it, but like, if I've got 10 Bitcoin that day, all right, I've

got 10 Bitcoin that day, the fork happens, then the next day, I move my 10 Bitcoin, let's say, I move

my 10 Bitcoin to another address. What happens if I take the private key of where the Bitcoin

used to be, and put it into your software? Will I have my e-cash? No, you will just have an address

where the e-cash used to be, because the e-cash will move in tandem with the BTC until it's split

off. There's no guarantee than that, but I think that since the same transaction is valid

on both networks, and it's free and easy to collect the transaction fee on both, it's almost certainly

what would happen. All right, so the e-cash can keep, unless you type in your Bitcoin private key

into the... Yeah, I think a lot of people probably won't, you know, do that, and they may, and so it

will be bizarre, because there will be a lot of people who will not be splitting on day one, because

it is a risk, and I think there will be a lot of people who do not, who still transact, they will

still be transacting in BTC, which means the same transaction will be happening on e-cash,

and so there are a lot of people be ending up getting new e-cash even days after the fork,

and to some extent, it will be like a kind of weird Dropbox folder that's like synchronized,

and so then people, so people have to decide what they want to do. Now we see why in the past,

like there would be a fork, like a bgold fork or whatever, and a year later,

if you typed in your, I'm pretty sure if you typed in your private key, but you knew your Bitcoin,

you would get your, you get, your bgold would still be there at the old address,

even if you had moved, so why won't that happen this time? Well, that was because of something

called the transaction replay, which I'm not sure the exact decision-making process in BCH,

but for whatever reason, at kind of the 11th hour, BCH decided that they wanted to split to,

they wanted on their fork day, which was happened to have been August 1st, 2017.

On the fork day, yeah, exactly. The coins would split, and then they would never move

again unless you use the BCH software. Why can't you do that? Why can't you do that?

We could, but I just think that it's not the best, in the best interest of the project,

that kind of thing. I like there to be stakes, so I like there to be, one thing I would prefer

is that people researched a lot of stuff in advance, they became knowledgeable about the

fork before it happened, and made a decision in advance, whereas the, when you do it like that,

the project's like sort of waiting for you for years. I don't know if that's actually what's

good for the e-cash project, so that's one reason. Another reason is that you're kind of cutting off

the people who haven't made a decision, so those people who haven't decided to split,

or they haven't decided I prefer one or the other, you know, philosophically, they're kind of

indifferent, so they should really just move, you know, when they move one coin, they should be

moving both coins, because they've chosen to be, to not take a side, which I think is 100% fine,

I think that's great. There are some other reasons as well, it just like, I think it, you know,

I think it just gives people a little nudge, and it says, hey listen, make a decision, don't just,

it's kind of like when you, in a romantic relationship,

if someone gives someone an ultimatum or something, you know, it says listen.

Such and such by this, by this date, or whatever, this is, you know, it just forces clarity on the issue, I just think it says, you know, if you, you either think this is a good idea, in which case, you want to accumulate only the eCash, or you, some, maybe more eCash than BTC, or you think it's a bad idea, and you want to sell, and I have less respect for people who just say, well, you know, I'm going to kind of just, if that's what you want to do, then that's fine, but you don't care about having one or the other, you know, I think it's a good idea, I think it's a good idea.

So, let's go over this scenario, I got my 10 Bitcoin, I obviously, I do not want to put my private key into the, into your software on day one, but how about this, I got my 10, I take and I move 0.001 Bitcoin to a, to another address.

So, that means I've also moved 0.001 eCash to that address, and then a week later, I type in the private key of that address in there, so, and then it says, hey, in your software, it says you've got 0.001 Bitcoin and 0.001 eCash, and I move my eCash and I move my Bitcoin, is that, is that logical, will that work like that?

Well, we should certainly point out that Bitcoin has change addresses. So, when you have a UTXO, that's like 10 Bitcoin and you try to move 0.001, what it really does, there's really three addresses, A, B and C. So, if it starts, 10 starts in address A, and you move 0.01, let's say, to address B, it will put 0.01 there, but then it will put 9.99 in address C.

And all three of these addresses, you would control the private key for in this scenario. And that means that in, if you imported private key A into the eCash, there would be zero coins there. If you import private key B, there would be 0.01 coin there. And if you import the private key C, then there would be 9.99 on that one. And if you have some wallet that does them all at once, it will, I don't know exactly.

Yeah, that's very good. So, the one that's got 0.01 at it, I've got my 0.01 eCash and I've got my 0.01, it's split now. You split it, you did it for me. Now, I move one, the other one's safe. There's, it's protected. Nothing can be replayed or anything like that. It's done. Once it's split, it's done. Nothing weird can happen. You don't have to worry anymore, correct?

I mean, what I would do just to bottom line it for people is, now, I don't know if this advice will work for everyone, but as you say, most people buy and hold today. So, most people are not running. This advice may not apply to you if you're like Kraken or Coinbase or something. But if you're a normal person, I would, you know, I would just kind of wait for like a week or two. It should be obvious at that point if we have some kind of, you know, something horrible in the software that's stealing, using people's private key.

You just wait like a little bit until you kind of decide that, okay.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I mean that I've waited a time period where it's clear this is, everything works fine.

People are getting away with this. They are splitting their coins and they're not losing their BTC because the private key is a risk. It is a big risk. So, if you're not comfortable with the risk, then just don't do it. And, you know, what you can especially do is you can just say, you know what, I'm buying and holding. If you just buy and hold BTC, well, then as long as you don't move the BTC, the e-cash is also, you've also bought and held.

Yes, yes.

Yeah, yeah. That's for the – you did that favor for the people who can't make up their mind that, yeah, I wish it was more like the B-cash one.

Now, you – I do want to tell people that you have investors. You have prepared a lot of things. This is not – you've talked to exchanges. But everyone's got to spread the word also because this could help the Bitcoin price.

Because people that are from traditional finance, they will just see this as interest on their Bitcoin, a one-time dividend. If they know that it exists, people are going to want to buy Bitcoin because they're going to be like, yeah, in August I'm going to get this – I'm going to get some interest because people love yield.

That's part of the reason people love DeFi and Solana and Ethereum. They love – and staking. Now, again, in the Bitcoin land, if you mention staking, then you get burped at the state by the Bitcoin inquisition. Pound that like button. That was a pretty good one there. I pulled that out of my checklist.

Anyway, so yes, please, people, spread the word that this exists because all these people are like, oh, it's bad for Bitcoin. No, it's good for Bitcoin if people start buying Bitcoin because they think they're going to get an extra coin out of the whole deal too. It's great.

People, just stop making this a religious cult. You're getting an extra coin. Who cares what the heck it's called? Do what you want to do with it. Afterwards, you're getting interest.

If you've got Canadian dollar interest on your dollar bank, United States dollar bank account, you'd be happy. You'd figure out a way to turn those Canadian dollars into US dollars. You'd be very – don't complain when you're getting something for free.

Now, I'm not saying to go buy it at the exchange. If you're getting – I always say if you get something for free, don't buy it, whatever.

Now, they're going to be – anyway, but you know people are going to want to buy your thing just because it's new and it's shining and everything.

So people, do spread the word, and I want to say one of the ways that you're funding this is that they've identified coins that are most likely Satoshis.

So those coins are not – when the fork happens, those coins are going to be given to your developers and stuff to pay them.

Now, a lot of people in Bitcoin for some reason think it's wrong for people to make money, for developers to make money. It's the most insane thing.

We're talking about money here, and some people think it's bad to get rich. It's bad to do well. It's bad to pay people. What a joke.

So I have no – and that Satoshi is Hashem. They think Satoshi, God forbid, is God. They think he's God.

So if you dare mess with Satoshi coins in any way, that you are doing something so horrible, so it's a sin against the cult of Satoshi.

Come on. He's dead. He's a dead man or two dead men. You've got to move on from it.

He's done us all a favor that he is deceased, that he can't come back and change things and sell things or whatever, but this is Paul creating a fork.

Let him do what he wants to do with it. It's his thing. If you don't like what Paul is doing, create your own fork.

Do one like Skinny Legs is doing, that guy, the one – what's his name? Luke Dash Jr., who wore a gas mask to the frickin' Bitcoin conference in Miami.

So this is a person people think is a reliable man that, oh, he knows what he's talking about and everything like that.

So you could go into the preparations that you've made, but I just want to give my opinion out there about this whole Satoshi coin controversy.

I think it's absolutely ridiculous. And so yeah, I'm glad that you can pay the people.

Or if you need to pay exchanges to get on their exchanges, do whatever you want to do.

And yes, if Coinbase tells you they're not ready for you, they're not going to be ready until November, then yeah, you should delay it.

And I also think September is the worst month to do it than November. I do think things will be better by November in terms of the price of Bitcoin.

I think September we could reach the low, the real low. I don't think today is going to be a low.

I think we still have time to reach the low in September. So any thoughts on what I just rambled on about there?

Yeah, I would rather not have there be like tiny delay, like a 10 minute delay when you're at the airport and then delay, delay, delay, delay.

And each time your credibility is getting worse. So I think it's totally fair. We have a target date and we're on track so far.

But if we do delay, I would rather just do one big delay of like a few months. So that's what you're referring to with that.

Now, I think the financing is really one of the better ideas of the of the entire project, which is actually filled with lots of good ideas.

But I think it's even better than what you said, because normally the way it works is people worry about how to finance development over the long, you know, into the future.

But the way this is set up, it really won't need any more development in the future.

It needs development up front and then it will mostly be fine because the L2s, you know, they are we're taking stuff from Altcoin world that already exists or, you know, solving.

If someone has a pressing issue, they can, you know, either write the software themselves or fund people who write the software that solves their problem.

So really, it will be kind of more on autopilot once it's done. But of course, it did take a little bit of effort to prepare.

And so we raised the money in. We raised three million dollars in late 2022.

We use that money to pay the developers already and we still are.

And we have other stuff like we have our bug bounty contest and we have all these other things that we do.

We sponsored like, you know, conventions and things. So we do that.

And then now. So really, the coins will go to the investors in when the fork happens.

And this is less than half of Satoshi's coins. The list of which coins are Satoshi's, that long predates me.

That was something Sergio Damon Lerner did like in 2013. And it's very convincing.

I'm not sure people really have looked into it. They think that it's kind of just like some kind of back of the envelope guess.

But actually, it's very, very interesting research that people could read.

And this basically says that all these coins were mined by one miner.

But this is the same person that was mining from the beginning and that this was because the miner had various quirks.

So, yeah, he still has hundreds and hundreds of thousands of e-cash.

He just doesn't have the full 1.1 million e-cash, which he seems to hardly need.

And I think there's plenty of other layers to it as well.

Ideally, when a project launches, it's already mostly finished.

And that prevents you from having to live in this world where you're selling a dream to people.

You say, oh, this is going to be great. You have to promise, make all these promises to people.

When you live in a world based on promises, that world rewards the best sociopaths and the best liars.

These are the people who can lie, promise you a lot of things.

Also just delusionally optimistic people that can promise you the world.

You invest, it doesn't work out.

So the ideal thing is for it to be basically finished in advance.

But if you want anything to be finished in advance, then you have to make it before it's released.

So this is a way around that problem.

When you privatize the hard fork, it gives people a new incentive to create these high quality forks in the first place.

So now we may have many people copy.

And once this idea becomes, once people figure out how great this idea is, there might be a lot of people copying this.

As you were saying in 2017, there was many people copying Bitcoin Cash.

So we could have lots of people doing this Satoshi half airdrop fork idea.

We could have 10, 15 high quality ones.

Each person stepping up to the plate and trying some idea.

And so this is free money for all Bitcoin.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, it would be so great.

God, please let that happen.

Let other people use their versions of Satoshi coins or whatever.

More forks, more crypto dividends.

It's great. Pound that.

Seriously, pound that like button.

And God, I just forgot something I was going to say about this.

Oh, there's some guy that wants you.

Some of the suggestions, again, people can suggest what they want during these Twitter spaces.

But they're like, you should confiscate.

You should figure out which Bitcoin are sailors.

It's a very funny idea.

I mean, I kind of laugh it off and say that we would maybe do it if we could.

Of course, he bought fair and square and we don't know which are his.

And he can move these at any time.

Satoshis have never moved.

That's one of the criteria for Sergio's thing, which he calls the Patoshi pattern.

None of those coins have ever moved.

Not only are they mined in a weird way, but these are Satoshi's personal super miner.

Sergio has a whole different set of coins, I'm sure, that he mined with his normal CPU.

But he has this super miner that he's keeping that with money.

I want to say something else about how people get this anger on Twitter.

But the normal reaction would just be, oh, this is free stuff.

This is great, which is to say, even in the Bitcoin cash, which was unbelievably controversial

and unbelievably acrimonious split, contentious split of the community, often described as a divorce.

Even in this situation, there was a site where you could track the UTXO set.

And after a year, a year into the BCH split, more than half of the UTXO sets had not moved at all.

So this is the buy and hold.

Literally, most of the money was indifferent.

And that was something that everyone had an opinion on.

But it was a fake opinion.

It was on Twitter.

This was a lot of noise being made.

Most normal people are like, you know what, I've invested in this.

I know it's still early days.

I'm just going to wait and see what's going on.

So that was more than half of the UTXO set.

Now, I have to hasten to add a couple other things to that, which is that if you moved,

as you were saying before, if you move like 0.01 coins, because of the way change addresses work,

it looks as though you split the entire thing.

So even if you only sold like 1%, it looked on that website as if you split 100% of your coins.

But even still, that was saying that more than half were unsplit.

So really, probably more than like 90% were really actually unsplit.

It's hard to smell for sure.

But on top of that, there were people who, this is a conversation between Jameson Lopp and Eric Voorhees, for example.

They had announced SegWit2x back in May 2017.

And Jameson Lopp asked on Twitter, so hey, is SegWit2x still happening now that we have...

Because BCH launched as like its own weird project in August when none of the large blockers knew anything about it.

So it launched in August and Jameson Lopp was like, hey, is anyone still doing SegWit2x?

Because there's this Bitcoin Cash thing.

And all these large blockers replied to him saying, no, of course not, Jameson.

Of course no one's doing Bitcoin Cash.

SegWit2x is the real thing.

Then only later in November did they cancel SegWit2x.

So you had people who were maybe buying and selling huge amounts of Bitcoin Cash who then undid that.

Again, on the website, this would show us them splitting 100% of their coins, but maybe they really split 0%.

So I think this speaks to the fact that it's theoretically possible that something like 90% of the actual community did not care at all about anything Bitcoin Cash versus BTC or even large block versus small block.

Which is an amazing thing to say because it dominated the company.

As you were saying, there's a difference between these loud people and the truth.

And it is a big illusion that we all have to keep our eye on.

I do remember back then also, which was cool, there were these prediction markets.

And now they're so much more sophisticated.

So I fully expect and hope and you encourage there to be prediction markets on the price of what eCash is going to be.

I think you said it could be built on one of your drive chains or whatever too.

Yeah, but we can't build that until we turn it on.

Exactly.

The Solana token is kind of funny.

That's what I was going to ask you about.

So the reason I did this is because they set it up so that it funnels to me the money, the trading fees.

Even though I didn't create it at all and I had nothing to do with it.

Because the way Solana works or something, they can find your wallet and give you money as the creator.

So even though I did not create it, it's kind of funny.

It's just their term for it, the creator rewards.

But anyway, they've funneled basically like $50,000, $60,000 US in trading fees to this thing.

So what I just said was, I said, listen, we'll treat this as if it's a purchase.

And then we'll feed it back to the top owners of the meme coin.

So you can basically redeem it.

You can collect the dividend, the eCash dividend in the Solana eCash.

So it's kind of bizarre.

But the point is that thing has a tradable market price.

And so that thing, it's highly imperfect because there's issues of how to totally, whether or not everything will happen and how long it will take to happen and blah, blah, blah.

But yeah, that thing, the price is traded at something between anywhere from $50 to $200 per.

Well, that's what I was going to say.

If you back it up.

Who knows if that's totally how reliable that is.

But that is a totally liquid market where people buy and sell and it's kind of small.

All right.

So I was going to ask you because it has jumped around about what it's predicting.

And again, so you're saying it's not the best prediction market.

It's predicting about 0.2 percent of a Bitcoin.

I mean, that was what I averaged.

So that link on your site, it links to eCash.com slash Sol-token.

Do you update that or is that just static numbers?

I should update that.

We should update that.

It's mostly kind of basically accurate.

You have to look up to get the actual thing.

You need to look up what the market cap is of the Solana token, basically, because instead of redeem it proportionally.

You say, well, there's this pool of whatever it is, like 2000 ECX.

And then there's like that's set against the entire market cap of the Solana token.

So it's kind of a silly little thing.

But I'm happy to see that it's above what the investors who are investing with the 3 million round and the 5 million round.

That was like lower than that was like beneath 30 dollars per coin.

So this is like much higher than that.

So I'm kind of happy about that.

See, that's my angle is that all these people are kind of, you know, I'm just saying, listen, it doesn't cost that much money to like write.

It costs money to produce software, but it doesn't cost that much money.

And we're talking like these projects are built, you know, Bitcoin Cash.

And these things are billion dollar, huge, gigantic projects that have a lot of potential for, you know, just R&D, software development, people trying to find product market fit.

So I'm just kind of like, listen, we can just if you can make this and turn it into a positive ROI project, why wouldn't more people do that?

That's something that we should do.

And the problem with the pure fork is that you can't monetize the costs in any way.

So that's again, I think this whole Satoshi half airdrop thing is actually a really, really good idea.

I think you've hit on something, which is that there's a clue.

People hate it a little too much.

And sometimes people really hate a good idea because when you're when you're in when you're collaborating with someone, you want to help them.

But when you're competing with them, sometimes you really want the worst for them and you don't like it when they.

And I think this is kind of triggered people a little bit, you know, because there's an irrational dislike of this extreme dislike of this idea.

It's almost these people are representing themselves as they say they would support the e-cash hard fork.

They would support if only it didn't have this Satoshi, which is a ridiculous, of course.

So there's something that doesn't quite add up about the whole thing.

And I think that's part of it.

But by the way, I would support, you know, you said that it's a unique way of funding other forks in the future.

I mean, we in the past 2017 with a big gold, they did the pre-mine.

I have no problem with if you did a pre-mine.

Is that did you why did you avoid a pre-mine just because it was well, it's a very good.

It's a very good question.

And so there's a lot of like different options and each of them has something bad about them.

Even if we did the pure fork, the pure fork means that basically whoever is like altruistically.

You know, the pure fork says that the haters of the project and the supporters are treated the same.

And it says that anyone who sacrificed extra to make the project happen, like if they really put themselves out on a limb, they took extra risk.

They put in a lot of time.

You know, those people are treated the worst because they paid the most and they got treated the same.

So that's even that has a terrible outcome.

But, yeah, the pre-mine, it was kind of like, well, then you lose the 21 million meme and it's kind of.

That's a good that right there is a good enough excuse.

But in terms of like if you do your fork, there is going to be I predict that you see one of the reasons I'm so excited is because I've been predicting for years.

That someone was going to make some of the FUD out there is like miners don't make enough money.

So we need the Bitcoin 21 million to change.

And so that's a mission.

And so someone would make a Bitcoin that was 42 million or something.

I still think that's on the way.

I encourage people to make.

So, you know, I have no problem.

Someone's going to do a fork and like change the you know, how many are going to exist in all time.

If it's 30 million, 42, someone will.

And maybe they'll be they'll be inspired by you finally getting the forks back on the roll again.

Real quick, there are people that have said there was one guy on your Twitter space.

He comes back every single time and says how horrible an idea it is that you're giving free coins to people who actually own Bitcoin and that seller is going to dump everything.

I don't know. MicroStrategy just might give it out as a dividend.

I don't think I wouldn't be too worried about that at all.

And there's nothing wrong with people.

It's a great marketing thing for people who care enough about Bitcoin, who hold their own Bitcoin to get something for free.

And then they start talking about it and spreading the word.

If you just made up your own for your own coin out of the blue, who would know about it?

Who would care about it?

Like you're giving this coin to like the most conviction type of people out there.

Just the strongest of hands.

And sure, a lot of them have done very well because they've held a hundred Bitcoin for 10 years.

So they're going to get. So what?

It's like envy that these people like the guy goes crazy every time on your space.

Like how can you give these people free?

People have a lot of myths.

Like they think that dumping reduces the price.

But every buy is a sell.

And so there's no such thing as like selling, reducing the price, unless you also want to say that buying reduces the price and vice versa.

So the whole thing kind of doesn't really make any sense.

I think he also doesn't really appreciate like what it would mean if we broke the property right idea.

So of course, like I have a lot of disagreements with Michael Saylor.

I think he's a ridiculous person.

I think he's basically a noob and he doesn't know that much about, you know, even what he bought.

And he certainly doesn't know a lot about technology.

And he's just like basically he plays fast and loose with the truth to the point where some of it is you could be considered like basically fraud at this point.

Where a lot of his, you know, many of his statements he's had to contradict himself, blah, blah, blah.

So I have a lot of problems with him.

I think he's he pointlessly is holding back.

Soft forks.

He has a mistaken view of ossification and he shouldn't really weigh in on what's good for Bitcoin because he doesn't know.

And but, you know, it's all that aside is talk is sort of cheap.

He actually bought he bought the BTC.

He's a Bitcoiner.

So why would we now?

Of course, people will then reply.

They'll say, well, hey, like you're taking half of Cersei's coins.

It's kind of like that.

But again, people have extra paranoia about him that he's going to sell all his e-cash.

He might not know about it.

I mean, it's like, no, there's no guarantee he's dumping all of this new thing.

I think he might distribute it.

I mean, he's in need of it seems like he's there's some financial problems going on there.

So all of a sudden, if you've got this.

He may be a shill.

He may be a super shill.

Because he's this is the thing is because he plays so fast and loose with the truth.

He could say anything like, you know what I mean?

He was saying never sell your Bitcoin for a long time.

Then he was like, I never said never.

Totally gaslighting everyone in a ridiculous and absurd and insulting way.

And then he's like, well, blah, blah, blah.

So we could go down the line.

But the point is come whenever it is August or come November, we could see Michael Saylor on stage saying.

This is the perfect way to keep this Bitcoin ossified. Everyone should do these forks. He could be a huge eCash shill, as far as we know. It's hard to say, I mean, because, you know, of course, he said, you know, there is no second best.

But then he said Monero is actually, you need a Monero. So then he's, you know, he's saying that fiat is a melting ice cube. But then he was Stretch had like this weird stable coin, like altcoin thing attached to it.

So it's impossible to say. And I think he, his word is not worth very much, which is why all this stuff has collapsed recently, which is people realize they can't trust it, what they what he says, no matter what it is, could be good, could be bad.

So I think he has very little integrity, unfortunately. But he that's kind of the point as to why he could just he could just be as you were saying he could just be adopting the rational point of view to say, hey, this is all free stuff.

A lot of these, a lot of these just regular joes that appear on your Twitter space, they don't get I think they might be envious that there are some people that are very famous out there, be it Kathy would Peter diamantes, they're very wealthy people who love Bitcoin, who talk about Bitcoin.

So if they get this for free, and they start talking about it on their podcast, it would it would help you a lot. It'd be a very good. I just did a lot of people that don't understand marketing. They're such technical people. They don't get we you talk about culture in Bitcoin.

There's a lack of marketing understanding of Bitcoin. I'm not worried about the culture, by the way, because everybody defines the culture differently sees it differently in what corner of the space they're in.

So I you're you seem to be very worried about, you know, that Bitcoin culture is going down the toilet. It's just the way you do it. But I just want to say is I think you could agree there's a lack of a marketing savvy in Bitcoin.

And amongst some people that it's almost like they're, they're autistic, like, no, no, no, no, rich person can can't talk about Bitcoin. If a rich person talks about Bitcoin, it's bad. It's bad. No, they've got huge reach these people.

But if Joe Rogan starts talking about, hey, all of a sudden I had some more free, that's great. That's awesome. So I wanted to add that there. And speaking about culture and Bitcoin, the Bitcoin Inquisition, let's add let's end on a bit 110 here with with Luke, that's supposed to happen on August the 9th. Do you think that's going to turn into its own coin? Do you think it's going to turn into a hardware?

Well, by default, it won't. But if we just look at everything that Luke has ever said or written or his personality, and I've known him for many, many more than 10 years. And so what will really what you know, the confident thing we can predict will happen is the mandatory signaling will begin. And no, no one will signal. And so you run knots, even though it's mandatory, your blockchain will just stop there.

At that point, Luke will probably say that this proves that the miners are wicked, irredeemable creatures and that we must change the proof of work. That's another irony is that he'll they will do a proof of work change, whereas he cash keeps almost everything the same like Bitcoin Core. It's very, very, very, it's all as minimally modified it as possible.

There's another reason why it doesn't need ongoing development is it's going to steal Bitcoin's core development. But just like Bitcoin Core is shot to 56D mine, so is Ecash going to be shot to 56D mine. It's the same mining algorithm. But Luke will change his after this idea doesn't work because the idea is just not a very popular idea.

It's an idea. Again, Luke's idea is different from previous soft forks, whereas those were to enable features that users actually wanted to pay transaction fees to use. He's shutting off something that people like. So it's very unlikely that this idea will work. And it's very unpopular. And no one has signaled except for, you know, I think they've rented hash rate to signal what they have signaled, which is like 0.3% or something abysmally low.

So they are in their own interesting little bubble world. And this is the toxicity eating itself. So I think they will then have to create a new hard fork, which will be very interesting because they'll have to face all the challenges that we've faced over like many months of like deciding, oh, what should the name be? What should what should each what date should it be? Which like how do we prepare?

They'll have to kind of decide all of that. Either they'll have to say, well, we're going to do this hard fork in six more months after August after planning it all out, or they're kind of maybe just going to like YOLO it very quickly. I'm not sure. They don't seem to have published any of that information. They still seem to be they still seem to be very confident that 110 will activate.

I've heard that a lot of people in this community secretly want out and they want they need a way to get off this stage saving face. And so they're going to wait for 110 to fail and then just cut and run, which I think that that would make sense for a few people. That's like the cult, you know, like when the doomsday comes and then nothing happens, the rational people leave and then the cult becomes even crazier. But so I don't know. I don't know. We'll see about with 110.

Yeah, well, I hope I hope he goes hardcore and forks it off. We get a cult coin or an anti ordinal coin, whatever you want to call it.

So that gave it a funny name, but I don't remember what it was. It was like, you know, it was like Luke going, but it was something someone had a clever name. And I don't remember what it was.

Well, it would be interesting if it does really if both happen and yours and his happen in August.

I consider it a positive. I think it would.

That's why the Satoshi half airdrop thing. Like, I think this is nothing like theft. Like, you don't want to live in a world where people are always stealing from each other, because then why would anyone own anything worth that worth?

Still, that would be a nightmare. But I think people should copy this idea and do it all the time. We should do this all because this is a creative act.

Make new forks all the time. Yes, Satoshi half keep half for to do whatever you think you can to make the project a success. So, yeah, we'll see. Hopefully it does inspire a new wave of dynamism and creativity.

Well, I got I got to give you credit for coming on the show, given your time today. You're very valuable. You're very busy, man.

I want you to I'm going to leave the floor to you here at the end because there's probably some stuff that has been left out that you want to say.

But it's been very good, people. And he again, the Twitter space is coming up in a few hours. Follow everything is linked to below. Follow him on Twitter is very important.

He's got so so again, we're we're definitely different people here. I, I, you know, Michael Saylor, I don't care that much about him. The Bitcoin culture, quote unquote.

I don't care. I just let I'm a confident decentralist. Let everybody do what they're going to do. If there's a bunch of you know, there's a bunch of people that don't like me because of my religion in in Bitcoin.

I don't care. I know they've been around. I don't try to eradicate them. They're actually people of my religion who try to who there's a guy I know who's like, yeah, I want to get get these Bitcoin people to be less anti-Semitic.

I'm like, dude, just just who cares? Let them have their culture one day. That's the thing we can't kick. That's the beauty of Bitcoin. You I can't take away Bitcoin for people who hate me. It's awesome. And they can't take it away from me, the people who hate me.

So that's a beautiful thing about the unconfiscated aspects of it. So, yeah, but you are an awesome dude. I admire the conviction. I admire that we're going to get this free thing from you. I wish you would make it more like the Bcash fork where but but so people are going to have to wait a lot at first.

So there will be dry runs and there will be coin splitting tools so you could practice with the fake. There will be like basically pre fake e-cash so you could practice on that if you want. I don't know. You wouldn't want to practice with your real BTC private key, but you could you could have one that has like five dollars of Bitcoin. You could practice and then you could get more familiar with it.

Yeah. OK, so here's your closing statement. What have I forgotten?

Yeah, no, I think you're right. Just go to e-cash.com is the site. Follow me on Twitter. We have a Telegram group, t.me slash dcinsiders. It's like drive chain insiders, but it's like a joke. So we're on Telegram. We're on, you know, we got Twitter. We've got all kinds of other stuff. So we're on YouTube. So you can find all that stuff, e-cash.com.

And there's lots of information. So you just have to read and watch the videos, make up your own mind, discuss with friends. Yeah.

All right, dudes. Well, we are we have been excommunicated from the church of Satoshi because we we do not believe in, you know, protecting his e-cash. Oh, the inquisition will come for us soon. So we got to go. So everybody pound that like button.

I'm Adam Meister of Bitcoin Meister Disrupt Meister. Have a great week on Friday. Shabbat shalom. And check out Paul and Jed. Let's get some free free e-cash here. I'm clicking end stream. Let's see. Bye bye, everybody. All right. That should end it. And we are probably it probably on. It looks like we're still on the air.