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Hello there and welcome to the Bitcoin Takeover podcast.

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This is season 17, episode 5.

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We are live with Paul Sztorc, who has written a very brilliant article about Bitcoin
derangements

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and that's going to be like the main topic.

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For those of you who are not on YouTube and cannot see what we're talking about,
it's

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on his blog, which is Truthcoin.info, and I'm going to spell out the URL for those
of

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you who are able to type, it's slash blog slash derangements.

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It was published on the 16th of July 2025.

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It has been updated ever since, and it's just so good.

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We're going to talk about this.

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Hi, Paul.

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I'm glad you liked it.

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You know, I was when I read it, I just think like it looks so ugly, like on the
page.

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It's just this like broken list of just text and it doesn't look great, but really
it has

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the highest alpha out of everything in the whole industry because it is kind of
about

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the inevitable destruction of Bitcoin in a way.

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I mean, that's not really what it's about, but that's the question that it asks us
to confront.

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And so a lot of people think that's so bizarre that they can't even wrap their head
around

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that even being a possibility.

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But it is nonetheless important to dwell on all these mistakes and why it is they
none

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of them have been corrected for so long.

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Right.

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So how do you define a derangement?

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Is it like the Trump derangement syndrome where people can't stop talking about
something

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and they blame everything on it?

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Not quite, but it's a similar thing where there's just something is persistently
wrong

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and it is not fixed.

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So like you go to the post office and you think, oh, I forgot the letter I was going

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to mail.

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You go back home and you get the letter and you go back to the post office and then
you

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think, oh, the post office is already closed.

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You come back the next day and you send, but eventually the problem is solved.

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Eventually you can make it to the post office and mail the card, you know, but these
derangements

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are like someone, you know, they go to the post office and like, you didn't put a
stamp

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on this.

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And then they're like, okay.

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And then they try again without putting the stamp on or they go, the post office
closes

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at 5 p.m. every day.

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They go at 5.01 and it's closed and they try over and over and over again forever
and they

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never fix the problem.

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And that that's the derangements are just these mistakes that never get corrected.

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And it's kind of like this scar tissue that like doesn't like heal.

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There's just these wounds in Bitcoin that just they are just for some reason, we
don't

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have a kind of rational corrective process for them.

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And so it's kind of it's like the fall of the Roman Empire question of like, well,
let's

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just keep getting worse and worse and worse until this all just accumulates into an
unfixable

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situation, which hopefully the answer is no.

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But if there is, we should definitely figure out like what we're going to do,
because it's

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pretty important topic.

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But yeah, it's just takes the form of just an ugly list with bullet points.

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It kind of would have been better as slides or something maybe, but it's just so
much

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text.

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But yeah, I just typed that out as a list and then it's my article.

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But the actual content of the article is top shelf.

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But I think this presentation isn't very good.

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Maybe people will like people don't really read anymore.

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So maybe they'll get a lot out of this podcast format.

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But yeah, why don't you just let me know whatever you think people would be
interested in.

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We could just go down the list.

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Or whatever you think.

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Yeah, I also want before we start diving into the specific topics, I want to mention
that

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you actually classified these like you have the severe derangements, you have the
medium

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derangements and you have like the minor derangements.

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I guess it's important to talk about the severe ones.

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And I also want to jump a bit to the conclusion section because you say something
which is

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very important.

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And I want people to pick this up very early on.

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You mentioned that there is like a battle between the truth oriented and loyalty
oriented.

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I think this is beautiful.

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It describes very well what's happening with the culture and where people are right
now.

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A lot of them are afraid to tell the truth because they're tied to some sort of
loyalty

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situation like they are friends with someone or they're associated with some
organization

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or their advisors in some sort of treasury company or whatever.

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And they can't say exactly what it is that they're doing or what is wrong.

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They will just pretend that everything is fine.

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I see.

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So in contrast to this article that you posted, I see more people talking about how
Bitcoin

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is winning and how we are already the winners and we are part of the mainstream and
it's

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over, like the battle is over.

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We shouldn't try to do anything anymore.

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Bitcoin is complete.

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Bitcoin fixes this, you know, infinity divided by 21 billion, etc.

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Fix the money, fix the world.

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There is no second best, that type of thing.

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Yeah, so it's weird because the article, the gist of the article is that like
nothing

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can fix this, this accumulated disaster.

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But I have to hasten to add that I, you know, I'm certainly a Bitcoiner myself,
heavily

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invested in Bitcoin financially and career wise and intellectually and
reputationally.

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And I certainly, I don't think that it necessarily means that anyone who owns
Bitcoin

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today will lose their money or will regret it.

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That's not what I'm saying.

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But what I am saying is that the current culture is like it's bizarre to say, but
the

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current culture is so bad that it almost can't be fixed.

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Maybe it can. I mean, I hope I'm wrong about that.

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But I think it's very bad news overall.

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But it's just put into like a little humble article with a humble list.

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But hey, I'll let you then.

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But yeah, the truth or that is a very common theme that eventually in a rational
world,

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everyone floats with the truth.

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They notice the problem and they say, oh, what are we going to do about this
problem?

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Oh, we can't fix it. We'll escalate up to the big brains.

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You know, it goes up from the sergeant and it goes up to the general.

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They fix it, you know, or it goes from it would go up to like Greg Maxwell or
whatever to

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fix, you know, go up to the intellectual top of the tower.

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But in a deranged situation, it's like, well, you know, we don't talk about that
problem

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here and it just gets worse and worse.

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And it's more like it much more of like a Soviet type of a thing.

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So you're you could speak maybe to the Romanian experience of like this problem is
being

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swept under the rug. And then, of course, that that has artificial stability for a
very

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long time before the big black swan event just erupts.

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And then. I don't know, you like kill that guy or something, you had like the most
hated

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dictator of all time or something, so I don't know.

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No, I guess he was just the only one of all the Warsaw Pact dictators to not
peacefully

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give up on power and he had to be removed by force.

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So that's why it's such a big deal.

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He stayed in power for a little longer.

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He had the artificial stability and then he had an extremely unstable.

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What I assume is he had like, you know, beaten to death or something by the angry
mob of

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Romanians. No, he wasn't.

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He was shot. They put him on trial like it was all staged very precisely.

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They flew him with a helicopter and the pilot turned out to be a traitor and left
him on

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an open field. And then he was picked up by someone who looked like a normal
civilian

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who was like, oh, I'm just passing by.

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Do you want to go somewhere? You seem lost.

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And he took them to a place where they got put on trial very fast.

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They got accused of a lot of stuff that they did not do, but they could not defend

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themselves. But they sort of deserved some sort of punishment.

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I disagree that they should have been killed so fast, like they they knew so much.

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They possessed so much information that could be used later, but they just wanted a

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clean slate. They wanted.

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I understand that, too.

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But yeah, that was like the kind of that sort of where Hitler went wrong with the
one

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day trials. And then you're just like, well, now we'll never know.

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Anyway, back on topic, though, why don't you just take us back into the article?

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Now, I also want to disappoint you with something.

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OK, because where is it?

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I'm on Bitcoin Talk right now.

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I'm checking my messages.

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I actually sent a DM to Greg Maxwell.

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And on his profile right now, which is G Maxwell on Bitcoin Talk, he has a new web

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page, which is nt4tn.net, and he calls himself a retired software engineer.

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So he hasn't been active for a very long time.

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I mean, I think it is debatable.

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The whole thing is debatable. But like.

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Did he pretend to stop working during the block size war because he was being

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threatened or something?

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But I also think just literally he hasn't contributed anything.

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Like if you think of like that, he he used to be very, very, very, very active on

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Bitcoin Talk. And he would post all these ideas, CoinJoin and even CoinWitness,
which

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later kind of became CK Snarks.

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All that stuff was like posted about by him and like whatever, like 2012 or some

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cases even earlier, like in a theoretical paragraph and then later fleshed out.

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No, but my point is that you had this description where you said that it goes up to

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the generals and the Greg Maxwell's, but there is no more Greg Maxwell to speak of.

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Yeah, but that's that's implied in the article, like where have all the leaders

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gone? And in fact, I take a couple of shots at people later on in the lesser

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derangements. I say, you know, some of the people have basically abandoned us, like
a

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lot of people just quietly left.

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But even people like, OK, like Pete Rizzo is like a friend of mine.

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I like him, but he, you know, because of the algorithm, they just post all caps
lock.

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Junk all day, so, oh, no, he he's getting punished right now by the change, the

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algorithm. But this is the thing is the algorithm is following that he's instead of

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just posting what he thinks is important.

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Now, I agree that, you know, if the game has stupid rules, then play stupid games,
win

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stupid prizes. But he is trying to follow the algorithm.

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But it was just like, yeah, that was just all caps lock.

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You're not bullish enough.

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Rocket emoji like stuff that, you know, a retard would write.

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So that but that but, you know, he's like he has this preeminent knowledge of all
this

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Bitcoin history and so and, you know, Adam Back, another friend and one of the
people

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who supported me for a very long time, you know, on socially, you know, on on
Bitcoin

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Twitter and stuff. And I'm very grateful for that.

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But it's kind of like they're just posting stuff about like the price and
retracements

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and blah, blah, blah, like technical, like price chart.

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Technical in quotes, because that's all that is all just a bunch of superstitious

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garbage. And instead, they should be, you know, they should be taking the lead in a

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technical, technological sense.

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So, but yeah, there is no there is no leader.

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People didn't even know, for example, that.

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Like I pointed that out about the official policy from Bitcoin Core is, if
anything's

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controversial, they won't touch it.

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Then you had crazy Jonas Nick was accusing me of just fabricating that out of
nowhere.

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He had no idea that Eva Chavez tweeted publicly.

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Multiple times that that is the policy, so he didn't even know that that was the
policy

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and he just assumed that I was like, I don't know, concocting a wholesale
fabrication to

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like slander Bitcoin Core, but he doesn't even know that that's explicitly was said
in

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writing. It's always been said.

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And so people don't even realize.

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So there is no there's no leadership, all these conspiracies about Bitcoin Core
being

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captured. It's worse than that.

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There is no there is no organizational structure at all.

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There's just Eva Chavez being too cowardly to face any decision and just writing

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everything off as controversial or just taking all this, you know, merging more unit

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tests. And it's much deeper than that, because controversial is subjective, like

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controversial to whom?

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Is it just some troll?

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Yeah, exactly.

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Doesn't have consensus or is it just this council of well, well-trained and.

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How should I put it, fluent in C++ core developers or whatever who are working on
the

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next thing, controversial, the point is that if you read Roger Ver's book, which is

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called Hijacking Bitcoin, he describes.

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The situation with Teimos from I think it was the summer of 2015, when basically he
did

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not allow any conversation to happen on our Bitcoin about Bitcoin XT, which was

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supposed to be hard fork because he considered that Bitcoin XT is an altcoin.

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It goes all the way there where he described consensus as having nearly anonymous

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acceptance among the elites.

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And right now they took the same criteria, which was which were being used for hard

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forks, and they applied them for soft forks, which are optional, which is very

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interesting.

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Exactly. No, this is a this is extremely important point.

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The word consensus means the human, the actual English word means that everyone in
the

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room agrees. It has never been how any real group of humans operates and has never
been

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how Bitcoin Core operates.

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Now, Bitcoin Core is a group of people, but very misleadingly, there's an
equivocation

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where the same word consensus is used by the software to describe the bytes in the

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blockchain where everyone has to have the exact same bytes, exact same order.

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That is necessary for Bitcoin to function, and that is how it works.

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And so people kind of play this like maybe kind of hypnosis shell game, they don't

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realize they're doing it, perhaps.

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But yeah, it was the consensus in the software consensus among humans.

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Total consensus required for a hard fork, by the way, that's not true.

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Just kind of an overwhelming majority would really be what was literally an actual

223
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description of what's happening.

224
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:14,160
But then and then the whole point of the soft fork being invented in 2012 is that it

225
00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,560
does not require consensus.

226
00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:25,000
So the fact that people are now backfilling that requirement, that's like saying,
you

227
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:29,400
know, the whole point of like flying in an airplane is that we don't need to use a

228
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:34,600
boat, but then you take off with the airplane and the airplane just like glides
across

229
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,800
the surface of the water or something, you know, it's like we're going to take a
plane

230
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:43,400
from London to New York or something and it's going to go like you're in like a 747

231
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:45,120
like on the surface of the Atlantic Ocean.

232
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,000
So that's all this is very depressing.

233
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,800
The idea that soft forks require consent, that is one of the derangements, the fact

234
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:52,800
that nothing can get done.

235
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,440
We haven't had any soft forks in many years.

236
00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,320
There's no hope of having any in the future.

237
00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:04,680
The miners have abdicated their role even to care about their own bottom line.

238
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,320
The mining pools mostly care about competing against other pools, so they don't even

239
00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:13,920
they're not even happy when the Bitcoin price goes up or when transaction fees go
up.

240
00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:19,880
And the ASIC manufacturers would be the beneficiaries and the people who own the
ASICs

241
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,400
would be beneficiaries, but they're diffuse.

242
00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,320
So, yeah, there's unfortunately a lot of like these problems, these derangements,
these

243
00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:32,200
are problems that persist and they're not really getting any better.

244
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:38,240
And so I think it points to a question of, you know, start over with something new
or

245
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:43,520
try to continue to fix what is what might be broken beyond repair.

246
00:17:44,120 --> 00:17:53,160
Yeah, it's a very useful conversation to be had, because going back to the block
size

247
00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:59,000
wars, I don't think at the time the conversation was that BTC was going to become a

248
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,680
store of value and BCH was going to become the medium of exchange.

249
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:04,960
And then we're going to see which one the market picks.

250
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:09,960
It was all about, OK, this one is going to activate SegWit and try the Lightning

251
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:11,600
Network, which is a layer two.

252
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:16,280
And this other one is going to try on-chain scaling, increase the block size.

253
00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,960
It was two technical approaches to achieve the same problem, which was to make
Bitcoin

254
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:26,040
work as money. But somewhere along the way, Lightning never delivered, not in the
way

255
00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,680
that they promised, because there is always going to be someone on the beach in El

256
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,080
Salvador saying, what do you mean I use Lightning every day?

257
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:38,240
And BCH never took off for different reasons.

258
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:45,240
First of all, because they kept on fighting, they had a lot of infighting and they
had

259
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,840
two different forks that emerged from BCH.

260
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,120
There was BSV and then also the eCash one.

261
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:52,320
I think it's XCC.

262
00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:58,120
And they also had Craig Wright, who sort of destroyed everything.

263
00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:03,400
They made the movement look sort of crazy and cultish.

264
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:09,480
And I guess also the market was not mature enough to handle these.

265
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:16,680
Yeah, it's a separate issue, I think, why Bitcoin Cash did not do very well.

266
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:21,280
And I have been on the Bitcoin Cash podcast trying to explain it to them.

267
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,600
And they're not super thrilled, you know, by that.

268
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:27,760
But I think I have a big list.

269
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,400
I had a big list is my green table that I published about.

270
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:37,000
But there's so many things to say, like, so if we could just go just change gears
and

271
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,960
just talk about Bitcoin Cash for a while, because I think part of the problem with
the

272
00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:45,480
BTC, Bitcoin Core derangements, is that there's no competition keeping everything

273
00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:49,200
healthy. There's just one good project.

274
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,200
Then there's like Ethereum and then there's like some other projects.

275
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:57,360
But if those other projects were, you know, hot on our tail or nipping at our heels.

276
00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:02,920
That would, you wouldn't be able to have these derangements, people would get rid of

277
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,280
them. It's like if you're fighting a war and one person has like, you know, one side

278
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:10,880
has like a bunch of DEI, like irrelevant hiring criteria.

279
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:16,120
And then the other side, they're, you know, they're hopeless, they're not, they're

280
00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:17,200
never going to win the war.

281
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,160
Well, then you would fix the DEI problem.

282
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,920
But if they were, if it was like World War II and everyone is racing and they're
both

283
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:32,120
innovating as fast as possible, then you would, you would get really creative really

284
00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:36,760
fast. You'd start the Manhattan Project, you would start, you know,
industrialization

285
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,560
of mass producing airplanes and stuff like that.

286
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:45,240
So a lot to say, but yeah, why did Bitcoin Cash not succeed?

287
00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:50,400
Really bad. Well, the idea wasn't good and the execution wasn't that good either.

288
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:55,880
The idea of just hard forking once to the eight megabyte block, it's kind of like

289
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,560
what was so special about the number eight, right?

290
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,240
Either just remove the cap or don't.

291
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,960
And then if you do eight, won't you have to do 32 again?

292
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:09,720
And then this whole headache, it kind of made it seem like they didn't understand
this

293
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:14,240
whole, this hard fork was why everyone was suffering, because they didn't know how
to

294
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,800
handle that. So now we're just going to just hard fork all the time, I guess.

295
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:26,080
Keeping the name, I think, added a lot of stigma to the project and anxiety over
who's

296
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:30,480
going to be, you know, fighting over what's the real Bitcoin.

297
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:36,040
The idea of large block L1, I'm not an advocate of that.

298
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:42,920
I think we scale in layers, so I agree that we don't, we want the small block L1,
large

299
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,760
block L2, because you can't do the reverse.

300
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:52,360
To be honest, sorry for interrupting you.

301
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:57,720
I think Bitcoin Cash is doing a good job right now because they activated some of
the

302
00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,520
Satoshi era opcodes.

303
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,800
And ironically, they're building layer twos right now.

304
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:10,800
Yes, I think it would have been easier for them, like if they had, because what
instead

305
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,320
happened was Amri Sashay did his thing in August while everyone was still distracted

306
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:20,960
with SegWit2x. People, you know, Jamison Lopp and Eric Voorhees were talking on

307
00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:29,720
Twitter. At the time, it was called Twitter Kids, and they were talking about how it

308
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,800
like, is Bitcoin Cash the new large block project?

309
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,880
And then the large blocker group said, no, of course, SegWit2x is still happening.

310
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,160
So then we have people selling and buying coins and well, during this interim
period.

311
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,920
And then it kind of just launched like as a surprise, the better thing would have
been

312
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:52,920
to pick a new name, give months worth of advance notice and say, thanks, but no,

313
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:54,240
thanks. We on this.

314
00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:00,160
You know, BTC team, we're going to swap for a different team and just tell everyone

315
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:01,240
hold both coins.

316
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:04,440
You win no matter what happens.

317
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,800
That was partly what Dan Kravitz, remember Dan Kravitz used to say that he used to
say

318
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:10,880
hold both coins.

319
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,080
That was in his genius phase.

320
00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:16,120
But unfortunately, I mean, I really like Dan Kravitz a lot.

321
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:17,960
I think his mind is a joy.

322
00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:19,360
Oh, Dan Kravitz.

323
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,080
OK. Yeah, he's crazy.

324
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,640
But but he's he's really something else.

325
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:25,760
He believes in this guy.

326
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,400
You know, there's this debate in biology about.

327
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,680
I don't want to get into the details and like there's a lot of math behind it also.

328
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:37,480
But there's basically about there's this continuum of belief on this thing called

329
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:43,720
signaling. And Zahavi is all the way on one side as with Daniel Kravitz.

330
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,920
OK, and and then there's another side of the story that doesn't agree with this at

331
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:54,760
all, but Zahavi basically says that the way you prove to your girlfriend that you're

332
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:59,200
worth it, that you're a good person is to like basically grow as many defective

333
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,960
mutations as possible and become like a decrepit because you can say despite having

334
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:09,480
this really heavy peacock tail that's useless and attracts predators and it doesn't

335
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,720
help you fly. And it's despite all that, I'm still alive.

336
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,920
OK, now I happen to be very skeptical of this, as are many biologists who say the

337
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:20,240
signaling works the other way.

338
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,160
Like the reason when a lion roars, it's because they're really healthy.

339
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:24,680
They can make a loud, deep roar.

340
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,840
And the roar is something that, you know, a little tiny mouse can't do.

341
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:34,680
And so the signaling goes kind of the other way or that there's many variations of

342
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:39,640
this and we don't want to get into it, but my belief is that this Zahavi theory

343
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:45,360
destroyed Daniel Kravitz's mind and destroyed Bitcoin SV because Dan Kravitz was

344
00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:50,040
like, oh, this Craig Wright, he is the useless peacock feathers.

345
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,600
He is the dumb thing that I can attach to my intelligence.

346
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,040
And I can say despite being weighed down by all this stupid crap, this project is
still

347
00:24:59,040 --> 00:24:59,320
alive.

348
00:25:00,922 --> 00:25:27,922
And the problem with this Zahavi theory is it causes you to evolve, like having only
one eye and one leg and like being like misshapen and like just dying of disease and
all so that the women will notice you and I don't know, like I just, but this is an
open, this is considered a possibility, this is kind of an open question in biology
that people are researching, but there's, this is an extreme view.

349
00:25:28,722 --> 00:25:43,282
A lot of people have other views, like women evolve a certain, a taste for a
certain, like the peacock tail that causes the men to, they have like views that are
in the middle and views that are like, so I don't, there are different views about
honest signaling.

350
00:25:44,722 --> 00:25:48,122
But I just wanted to go on this ramble about this because it's funny to me.

351
00:25:48,122 --> 00:25:55,362
I love, really like Dan Kravitz, but he, his explicit belief is that the more, the
more bad something is, the more good it is.

352
00:25:55,802 --> 00:25:59,362
So he has this contradiction living inside of him.

353
00:26:00,522 --> 00:26:02,762
And then that was Bitcoin SV.

354
00:26:03,882 --> 00:26:07,762
So he was like, great, this is exactly what I needed, the worst idea ever.

355
00:26:10,242 --> 00:26:11,602
But, you know, I don't know.

356
00:26:12,602 --> 00:26:35,362
I mean, if you go all the way back to 2012, I think Dan Kaminsky was the first one
to make a presentation at a hacker's event where he basically said, in order for
Bitcoin to scale, to have today's level of transactions that Visa has, it needs to
have one terabyte blocks, not terabyte, one gigabyte blocks.

357
00:26:36,322 --> 00:26:41,402
And you need to have this type of processor with like 64 cores.

358
00:26:41,402 --> 00:26:44,322
And you also need to have this amount of storage.

359
00:26:44,362 --> 00:26:47,682
Like he did the napkin map back in 2011 or 2012.

360
00:26:48,282 --> 00:26:56,442
And this idea of having what later Calvin Ayer or whatever his last name is referred
to as the giga megs.

361
00:26:58,082 --> 00:27:05,322
It took so from 2012 until 2018 or 19, when SV came around, it's been quite a few
years.

362
00:27:05,322 --> 00:27:08,282
And people had enough time to think about it and consider it.

363
00:27:08,682 --> 00:27:10,122
And it was not something novel.

364
00:27:10,122 --> 00:27:12,842
It was just the first time when someone put this into practice.

365
00:27:13,322 --> 00:27:20,322
What really sucks and is awful about SV is the fact that they enabled confiscation.

366
00:27:20,922 --> 00:27:25,442
So they did something along these lines to make it easy to confiscate the coins.

367
00:27:27,522 --> 00:27:30,642
Well, I think, you know, I see that they're like the legally compliant.

368
00:27:30,642 --> 00:27:32,802
So if there was a court order that the police.

369
00:27:33,802 --> 00:27:38,482
This is all downstream of Craig's own insanity.

370
00:27:38,522 --> 00:27:39,162
You know what I mean?

371
00:27:39,162 --> 00:27:41,682
Like he painted himself into a corner because at first.

372
00:27:42,762 --> 00:27:47,962
Craig was going to be like, I'm the real Greg Maxwell and I'm Satoshi and I have a
million.

373
00:27:48,002 --> 00:27:49,202
I have an ace of spades.

374
00:27:49,202 --> 00:27:53,042
I'm the highest card in the deck because because I'm Satoshi.

375
00:27:53,042 --> 00:27:55,802
And so then he was going to say, like.

376
00:27:56,802 --> 00:28:01,482
You know, in the block size where that would have mattered a lot, because most of
the technical elite were small blockers.

377
00:28:02,162 --> 00:28:07,802
And I should say that also, I was a small blocker and I still am an L1 small
blocker, and I kind of agree with famous that.

378
00:28:09,402 --> 00:28:16,522
Explicitly promoting a hard fork, that would be like promoting, you know, fiat
currency, it's like promoting a competitor to Bitcoin, they should have.

379
00:28:16,562 --> 00:28:18,282
I happen to also think.

380
00:28:20,242 --> 00:28:30,402
Not to give too many threads, but I think that famous is actions actually helped
Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin XT and Kurt.

381
00:28:30,842 --> 00:28:34,242
The small block movement, but that's just my opinion.

382
00:28:34,242 --> 00:28:35,002
I don't know if that.

383
00:28:36,082 --> 00:28:44,282
So I think he didn't realize that he was doing a I think he was doing Streisand
effect and he was giving cover to all the bad arguments Bitcoin Cashland.

384
00:28:45,282 --> 00:28:50,882
By saying, oh, listen, this is all censored or whatever, but yeah, Craig, of course,
is crazy.

385
00:28:50,922 --> 00:28:56,202
So, I mean, this is related to the derangement point because it's kind of like if
Bitcoin is going to collapse, it kind of has to collapse.

386
00:28:56,202 --> 00:28:58,682
There has to be a competitor has to collapse into something.

387
00:28:59,482 --> 00:29:01,162
And the question is what?

388
00:29:01,162 --> 00:29:03,722
And the answer is, you know, everything else is also deranged.

389
00:29:03,722 --> 00:29:06,322
So, I mean, like, obviously, the fiat currencies are terrible.

390
00:29:06,602 --> 00:29:08,482
99% of the altcoins are scams.

391
00:29:09,282 --> 00:29:10,602
Ethereum is really not that good.

392
00:29:12,882 --> 00:29:20,162
And so, you know, I'm still like 99% Bitcoin for now, but these problems are here.

393
00:29:20,682 --> 00:29:33,122
And the reason I wanted to bring this up is because, yeah, Craig is obviously like
an example of a derangement, you know, on the large blocker side that was in BCH and
that was then in BSV.

394
00:29:33,322 --> 00:29:36,762
And Craig, you know, he couldn't really what could what could he do?

395
00:29:36,762 --> 00:29:40,722
You know, he said at first he was saying, I'm the technical guy, but then.

396
00:29:41,762 --> 00:29:46,762
It was tough, what was he going to say once you had other technical people such as
Omri.

397
00:29:47,762 --> 00:29:51,562
Trying to ask him basic questions or when they have an actual dispute.

398
00:29:52,522 --> 00:30:00,882
About that thing, a seat, canonical transaction ordering or these other questions
they wanted to ask, then it's revealed that he doesn't actually know that much.

399
00:30:00,882 --> 00:30:03,722
And then it was like, oh, he's misunderstood.

400
00:30:04,722 --> 00:30:06,242
Genius or whatever.

401
00:30:07,282 --> 00:30:08,042
Blah, blah, blah.

402
00:30:08,162 --> 00:30:12,802
So, yeah, but then it's ultimately becomes clear that he's not that either, you
know, so.

403
00:30:13,322 --> 00:30:20,922
But yeah, wishful thinking is a hell of a drug and everyone wants, you know, once
they become a bag holder, they won't.

404
00:30:23,922 --> 00:30:37,682
Hear a word against, which is partly why the derangements article like a bunch of
Bitcoiners are just going to they're not going to read it at all, or if they read
it, they're not going to read it like in the right mood of mind of like actually
being curious about what it says.

405
00:30:38,202 --> 00:30:41,122
They're going to scan it for various phrases and then you're just going to say.

406
00:30:41,682 --> 00:31:00,122
This is hostile to Bitcoin, this is not, you know, this is not what I'm used to
hearing, I'm used to hearing, I'm used to opening Twitter and seeing Bitcoin as hope
and an AI image and, you know, because I'm an idiot and then it's like, OK, well,
yeah, so should we talk about like any of them?

407
00:31:01,122 --> 00:31:02,602
Do you have any that you like?

408
00:31:03,282 --> 00:31:04,642
Should we just maybe read them?

409
00:31:04,682 --> 00:31:29,642
Let's why don't you why don't you like read just the titles of them all so that
because people have some idea of what it is I'm so against, but really what I'm
really against is this the fact that the culture cannot like admit its mistakes,
even when they're like obvious mistakes or things like the SegWit witness discount,
things were just like everyone is just has a wrong belief.

410
00:31:30,162 --> 00:31:31,722
But it just doesn't even matter.

411
00:31:31,722 --> 00:31:33,362
Like nothing matters.

412
00:31:33,362 --> 00:31:36,282
So maybe we should give people some idea of what.

413
00:31:37,402 --> 00:31:40,282
The article is about, I don't know if you want to answer.

414
00:31:40,322 --> 00:31:51,682
So I was going to mention that you became quite iconoclastic from the beginning, and
that's why some people will get to this page, which is Truthcoin.info slash blog
slash derangements.

415
00:31:52,602 --> 00:31:59,842
And you start out with lightning and a lot of Bitcoiners will read this and be like,
oh, it's just all being Paul.

416
00:31:59,882 --> 00:32:01,482
There's nothing interesting at all.

417
00:32:01,602 --> 00:32:24,802
Yeah, but I have a lot to say about this because you also went to Tabcom and you are
not planning to go to Tabcom and then you got sort of persuaded by Michael Tidwell
and you got on stage and you did a presentation and the format was brilliant and
that helped you actually be able to get people to debate you and also get people to
agree with you, which was really beautiful.

418
00:32:25,082 --> 00:32:32,642
And it's interesting how the sentiment changes year after year to the point where,
yeah, you were right all along, but it's very hard.

419
00:32:32,642 --> 00:32:33,482
Yeah, I was right.

420
00:32:33,482 --> 00:32:35,602
And their heart isn't really in it.

421
00:32:35,602 --> 00:32:39,522
You could see at Tabcom, their heart really wasn't even in defending it.

422
00:32:40,322 --> 00:32:50,722
There was really there were a few passionate defenders who are like the dumbest
people in the room who were like, you know, no offense, but like Shinobi and stuff,
the Tabcom room is full of like real engineers.

423
00:32:51,442 --> 00:32:55,602
And then you just have like some people, you know, they had a lot of passion.

424
00:32:56,642 --> 00:32:57,642
That was like two people.

425
00:32:58,562 --> 00:33:11,642
Also, Shinobi's objections were mostly semantic, like he felt like you were
generalizing and he just wanted to point out to the exceptions to your rule, but he
did not disagree overall to what you were saying.

426
00:33:12,522 --> 00:33:14,282
Yeah, there was no one who really disagreed.

427
00:33:14,282 --> 00:33:28,322
And then there were some people who are like, you know, we get like I hate to say
this, too, because I feel mean, but like we get like the Twitter marketing guy for
like a lightning, like they will disagree on Twitter, but like they're paid to do
that.

428
00:33:28,322 --> 00:33:30,202
It's fake and they're not, you know.

429
00:33:30,202 --> 00:33:33,402
And meanwhile, we got Tadge Dreija on the stage with me for 10 minutes.

430
00:33:33,402 --> 00:33:38,362
Like, I think Tadge Dreija outranks Alex Gladstein and Hannah.

431
00:33:38,362 --> 00:33:44,122
For people who don't know who that is, it's because you haven't read the Lightning
Whitepaper, by the way, you should.

432
00:33:44,122 --> 00:33:46,242
That's the inventor of the Lightning Network.

433
00:33:46,722 --> 00:33:53,602
And he came out and he didn't, you know, and, you know, I've known Tadge for many
years and he's a great guy and he has a lot of integrity.

434
00:33:53,602 --> 00:34:02,362
And he always, as I said in the talk, Tadge has always been trying to pump the
brakes on all of the nonsense of lightning.

435
00:34:04,002 --> 00:34:06,922
So, yeah, he certainly didn't do anything wrong.

436
00:34:07,682 --> 00:34:10,802
His invention is brilliant and he was always totally honest about it.

437
00:34:11,482 --> 00:34:15,402
But, yeah, he comes on stage and then he doesn't say like, oh, you're wrong about
this, this, this and this.

438
00:34:15,402 --> 00:34:17,122
And this is the central point and blah, blah, blah.

439
00:34:17,322 --> 00:34:21,962
He comes on stage and he's basically kind of just like, can we change the subject to
U3XO or something?

440
00:34:22,042 --> 00:34:24,882
Because I'm more interested in that than the Lightning Network.

441
00:34:25,202 --> 00:34:26,242
That's like what he said.

442
00:34:26,722 --> 00:34:35,602
So, you know, so, yeah, like that is, you know, that you're playing chess and the
person tips over the king, basically.

443
00:34:36,402 --> 00:34:42,962
But some of these people, like they don't even realize, they still think like, well,
yeah, people, that's right.

444
00:34:43,042 --> 00:34:44,922
Alex Gladsden doesn't know we're playing chess.

445
00:34:44,962 --> 00:34:54,682
He still thinks that because he's got an email from someone who says they're from
Kenya and they use the Lightning Network, that that means that it's and that he gets
primal to primal zap.

446
00:34:55,682 --> 00:35:06,962
On Nostr, and again, like it's fun to end up making fun of primal as an ingenious
idea and a great product for making Nostr much more convenient and basically usable.

447
00:35:07,762 --> 00:35:13,202
But, of course, the problem is not Nostr, it's the problem is the Lightning icon.

448
00:35:13,242 --> 00:35:18,642
But really, none of this would be a problem if Bitcoin had a culture that was
reasonable or if the Lightning people haven't.

449
00:35:19,002 --> 00:35:20,202
It's unfortunate.

450
00:35:20,362 --> 00:35:26,122
The Lightning Network, I mean, there's basically nothing in Bitcoin culture that it
hasn't somehow destroyed.

451
00:35:27,242 --> 00:35:33,162
It has seeped into every crack and it has ruined almost everything.

452
00:35:33,242 --> 00:35:40,282
And it is like just and anyone who tells the truth is like then will suffer like
socially.

453
00:35:40,802 --> 00:35:42,922
This has gone on for many, many, many years.

454
00:35:43,482 --> 00:35:53,682
Once I was at, I don't know, building on Bitcoin in Amsterdam and like someone, I
think it was Ben Ark or someone, I hate to name drop because super, super, super
great guy.

455
00:35:53,922 --> 00:35:55,762
But people would come up to me like at the bar.

456
00:35:56,322 --> 00:35:59,442
We'd all be at the bar, huge bar, 50 Bitcoiners in a room.

457
00:36:00,562 --> 00:36:06,082
And people would be like, yeah, you're so right about everything and you're right
about I think maybe I'd publish the security budget stuff at the time.

458
00:36:06,882 --> 00:36:13,242
And they're like, you just have to stop criticizing the Lightning Network, because
if you do, then no one and people won't listen to you as much.

459
00:36:13,362 --> 00:36:20,482
And, you know, when I was doing the fundraising for Lyric Labs originally, I had
like this huge 60 slide deck for like the big conversation.

460
00:36:20,922 --> 00:36:25,442
There's like one slide in there about the Lightning Network isn't that good and we
can do better.

461
00:36:25,482 --> 00:36:27,682
And people would be like, oh, you can't say that, blah, blah, blah.

462
00:36:29,362 --> 00:36:32,202
Now revealed to be the truth.

463
00:36:32,242 --> 00:36:33,842
But it's the biggest sacred cow of them all.

464
00:36:33,842 --> 00:36:40,602
You cannot criticize the Lightning Network, even though it is literally destroying
everything.

465
00:36:40,762 --> 00:36:42,882
And, you know, like that guy to do.

466
00:36:43,682 --> 00:36:45,962
I hate to say this again, like I don't want to do this.

467
00:36:46,002 --> 00:37:01,202
But people have to understand the truth about what's happening, which is that when
the guy went to Pubkey in New York, they said this was the first Bitcoin transaction
from a president of the United States, Donald Trump, to the bar to buy for like a
beer or a hamburger or whatever.

468
00:37:02,202 --> 00:37:12,922
I'm pretty sure that Trump does not drink alcohol, so I don't know what it was, but
but then they use the stupid lighting thing that doesn't work if they used on chain,
it would have to work.

469
00:37:12,962 --> 00:37:15,642
You know, it wouldn't be confirmed, but it would work and you could hold up.

470
00:37:15,682 --> 00:37:18,522
But instead, they just shut it off and then they have to cover the whole thing up.

471
00:37:18,882 --> 00:37:22,202
And then anyone who brings this up, they have to proactively discredit.

472
00:37:22,842 --> 00:37:24,682
So it's just a huge engine.

473
00:37:25,282 --> 00:37:29,282
Yeah, it just engine pumping out evil in all directions.

474
00:37:29,962 --> 00:37:31,762
And that's why I have to talk about it.

475
00:37:31,762 --> 00:37:33,762
I don't want to embarrass these people.

476
00:37:33,762 --> 00:37:36,922
I don't want to embarrass Alex Gladstein or the Pubkey owner.

477
00:37:36,922 --> 00:37:38,802
I don't really care about them at all.

478
00:37:40,282 --> 00:37:44,362
And I hope that they lead long, happy lives of peace or whatever.

479
00:37:44,602 --> 00:37:50,842
But people in the audience have to understand, like there is a huge immune system.

480
00:37:51,842 --> 00:37:58,522
That will discredit the honest people, not the neutral people, neutral people who
just kind of stay out of it.

481
00:37:59,482 --> 00:38:04,202
Everyone who tells you the truth about how bad the Lightning Network is will get the
extra.

482
00:38:05,522 --> 00:38:14,162
Lies being told about them to discredit them, of course, because these people, all
the people honest about the Lightning Network sucking, they have integrity.

483
00:38:14,522 --> 00:38:19,482
People are going to look for ways to criticize them, but they're not going to find
any because these are the people with integrity.

484
00:38:19,482 --> 00:38:20,402
These are the good guys.

485
00:38:20,802 --> 00:38:27,602
And then they're going to make up a bunch of ones about how whatever Fiat Jaff, you
know, he was saying, just burn lightning to the ground.

486
00:38:28,002 --> 00:38:30,842
He was one of the first people saying it in like twenty, twenty three or something.

487
00:38:31,522 --> 00:38:35,682
And and similarly, so you become inconvenient.

488
00:38:36,362 --> 00:38:38,922
You've done nothing wrong and you're becoming convenient.

489
00:38:40,522 --> 00:38:44,162
So, you know, it's because you've done nothing wrong that they have to then.

490
00:38:44,482 --> 00:38:47,442
But this is a perfect example of the derangement in a sane world.

491
00:38:47,642 --> 00:38:52,202
You would just lightning would never have even been invent like it may have been
invented, but it wouldn't have been.

492
00:38:53,202 --> 00:39:01,442
We built a world where lightning came out and then everyone just started, you know,
log rolling and talking about how great it was.

493
00:39:02,322 --> 00:39:05,402
And it's created this huge culture where everyone thinks lightning is great.

494
00:39:05,642 --> 00:39:08,602
So, of course, when the guy says, oh, we have to have the.

495
00:39:10,042 --> 00:39:16,082
President of the United States in our bar, then you have to say, oh, let's use a
lightning wallet.

496
00:39:17,722 --> 00:39:20,042
Because that's what you would think in this context.

497
00:39:20,762 --> 00:39:25,482
So everyone's an innocent victim of the evil of the lightning network.

498
00:39:25,522 --> 00:39:29,042
But in a sane world, we would never even reach this point.

499
00:39:29,042 --> 00:39:31,842
And if we did, everyone would say, well, why did that transaction not work?

500
00:39:31,842 --> 00:39:34,682
And they would investigate and you would fix the problem and it would never happen
again.

501
00:39:34,842 --> 00:39:46,002
But since the real truth is that the lightning network is terrible technology and
it's likely to happen again and it will happen again if you unless you use custodial
lightning, which is a huge contradiction, which is custodial lightning is basically
saying not using lightning.

502
00:39:47,002 --> 00:39:58,162
That's just the only way lightning works is when you don't use it, when you use
custodial lightning, custodial lightning, again, is another thing where like we
would never even be you would get laughed out of the room.

503
00:39:58,162 --> 00:40:04,722
It's like a bunch of engineers building an elevator to reach the top of the Burj
Khalifa or the Empire State Building.

504
00:40:05,482 --> 00:40:11,322
And you get into the elevator and you have to, like, climb the stairs in order to
get up to the next floor.

505
00:40:11,482 --> 00:40:13,282
And they're like, no, that's what the elevator is for.

506
00:40:13,322 --> 00:40:15,802
The whole point of the lightning network is so that it's not custodial.

507
00:40:16,562 --> 00:40:20,162
But anyway, the lightning network is the biggest sacred cow of them all.

508
00:40:20,162 --> 00:40:25,082
It is also the biggest disaster and it has seeped into Bitcoin culture.

509
00:40:25,082 --> 00:40:26,922
It causes everyone to lie to everyone else.

510
00:40:27,762 --> 00:40:33,442
It causes widespread, like, fraud, basically, and huge malinvestment.

511
00:40:33,962 --> 00:40:38,962
It distracts the engineers by keeping them working on useless nonsense.

512
00:40:38,962 --> 00:40:45,762
It encourages people to be vague and use a lot of prestige words, confusing words,
inbound

513
00:40:45,762 --> 00:40:47,442
liquidity, submarine swap.

514
00:40:47,842 --> 00:40:49,082
That's confusing to the user.

515
00:40:49,522 --> 00:40:53,162
The reason they do that is because you don't want everyone to know.

516
00:40:53,242 --> 00:40:57,682
You don't want everyone to see clearly how disaster, what a disaster the situation
is.

517
00:40:57,682 --> 00:41:00,162
So they always say, oh, blah, blah, blah, flood and loot.

518
00:41:02,122 --> 00:41:05,642
And yeah, we got really smart people working on it, blah, blah, blah.

519
00:41:06,402 --> 00:41:10,602
It is just an engine of making things worse and it's just spreading disaster.

520
00:41:10,722 --> 00:41:12,482
So that's why it has to be first on the list.

521
00:41:12,522 --> 00:41:16,602
It is the biggest derangement of them all, but we have lots of other derangements.

522
00:41:16,682 --> 00:41:21,242
And when I wrote, when I made that list, the treasury companies were still very
popular.

523
00:41:22,122 --> 00:41:25,002
But I put the treasury companies on the list because they're a terrible idea and
they don't

524
00:41:25,002 --> 00:41:28,922
make any sense. There's no reason to have someone else buy Bitcoin for you.

525
00:41:29,722 --> 00:41:32,402
You should be buying your own Bitcoin.

526
00:41:32,642 --> 00:41:34,122
That's like the custodial lightning.

527
00:41:34,122 --> 00:41:36,722
It's like, wait a minute, I thought I was doing that, you know.

528
00:41:37,522 --> 00:41:42,402
It should be your Bitcoin, we're just giving up your precious Bitcoin to someone in

529
00:41:42,402 --> 00:41:45,522
exchange for worthless paper stock that they can print at any time.

530
00:41:47,802 --> 00:41:50,962
But because of Michael Saylor, everyone thinks this is the greatest idea ever, and
they

531
00:41:50,962 --> 00:41:53,842
thought, you know, what we need is we need to do more of this idea, we need to

532
00:41:53,842 --> 00:41:54,842
franchise this.

533
00:41:56,402 --> 00:41:59,162
And we need to do all these other treasury companies, because this is the way to
just

534
00:41:59,162 --> 00:42:03,442
print, remember, magic flywheel, infinite money glitch.

535
00:42:03,882 --> 00:42:09,722
Turns out, no, MicroStrategy is now down more than 50 percent since that article was

536
00:42:09,722 --> 00:42:13,562
published. It's a lot harder to publish an article like that when it's like gone the
way

537
00:42:13,562 --> 00:42:19,282
up, up, up, up, up. Now, months later, I've been again proven right, like I will be

538
00:42:19,282 --> 00:42:21,642
proven right on every other of the points.

539
00:42:22,322 --> 00:42:27,562
And the people who tried to copy the treasury strategies, they are down even more.

540
00:42:27,962 --> 00:42:31,082
Whatever. You know, I like David Bailey a lot.

541
00:42:31,082 --> 00:42:34,762
His thing is down like it's hard to do the accounting because you don't know like
how

542
00:42:34,762 --> 00:42:39,002
exactly when what is the real stock price that people got in at.

543
00:42:39,002 --> 00:42:43,082
But it's down like more than 50 percent from even.

544
00:42:44,242 --> 00:42:47,482
But I think people got got in on it.

545
00:42:49,042 --> 00:42:51,642
Bernaca, aka Kindle EMD.

546
00:42:53,362 --> 00:42:58,802
So and then you can see from the recent interview that with what Bitcoin did, Danny

547
00:42:58,802 --> 00:43:01,082
interviewed how defensive and hollow it all is.

548
00:43:01,082 --> 00:43:02,642
He has some simple questions about.

549
00:43:04,042 --> 00:43:08,082
A tiny detail about and then you have to like everyone has to.

550
00:43:08,202 --> 00:43:13,442
So you see that that example is that interview, the recent Michael Saylor interview
on

551
00:43:13,442 --> 00:43:16,882
what Bitcoin did is a perfect example of the derangement at work in a sane world.

552
00:43:17,082 --> 00:43:22,202
People would just talk about, oh, this is a problem and this is going well.

553
00:43:22,922 --> 00:43:25,882
And in fact, this I think we could push the envelope on this and this.

554
00:43:25,882 --> 00:43:28,042
Well, this is still an open question.

555
00:43:28,042 --> 00:43:29,602
Oh, yeah. This is a fundamental issue.

556
00:43:29,602 --> 00:43:34,802
So if you every time you want to like imagine something at SpaceX or something going

557
00:43:34,802 --> 00:43:38,122
like that, it was OK. Every time you want to go to space, you need more rocket fuel.

558
00:43:38,122 --> 00:43:39,242
So we're not fixing that.

559
00:43:40,242 --> 00:43:44,042
But we can't fix this other thing and the new version will actually be 10
centimeters

560
00:43:44,042 --> 00:43:52,282
wider. And so, yeah, in engineering, it's usually when the engineering, the problem

561
00:43:52,282 --> 00:43:55,362
with engineering is oftentimes the engineers build something that doesn't exist.

562
00:43:55,562 --> 00:43:57,402
But I'll stop talking in a second.

563
00:43:57,402 --> 00:44:00,602
But what you really need is a someone, a key.

564
00:44:02,522 --> 00:44:07,682
A key goal, like a key metric, so like in a race, you want to finish with the
fastest

565
00:44:07,682 --> 00:44:14,482
time. So a race or like a video game speedrun, these are very rational things
because

566
00:44:15,402 --> 00:44:18,842
there's a clear measure of who won and why.

567
00:44:19,562 --> 00:44:24,602
And what everyone's supposed to be doing, but then in the deranged world, it's just

568
00:44:25,602 --> 00:44:32,162
Michael Saylor trying to coerce and psychologically manipulate Danny into not asking

569
00:44:32,162 --> 00:44:38,362
him certain questions, trying to steer people away from the truth because the truth
is

570
00:44:38,362 --> 00:44:46,642
not good. The truth is inconvenient, the truth stands in the way of actually
progressing

571
00:44:47,242 --> 00:44:50,562
and Michael Saylor is not a fan of any of this.

572
00:44:51,602 --> 00:44:56,442
He's been trying to there's a reason why he started buying domains, which I guess he

573
00:44:56,442 --> 00:45:02,442
has for a long time, but he redirected domains to some sort of Saylor Academy
Bitcoin

574
00:45:02,442 --> 00:45:07,642
education website where he's trying to tell people what he wants them to know about

575
00:45:07,642 --> 00:45:15,242
Bitcoin and see it from his point of view and onboard a bunch of suits and
institutions

576
00:45:15,242 --> 00:45:20,402
and whatever from the perspective of the narrative that he's projecting onto
Bitcoin.

577
00:45:21,042 --> 00:45:26,642
And he's sort of angry that he's losing the plot and he's losing the battle overall

578
00:45:26,642 --> 00:45:32,602
because the strategy, for example, what was it, the company MetaPlanet from Japan,
which

579
00:45:32,602 --> 00:45:39,162
is also sort of owned or handled by David Bailey, I'm not 100 percent sure, but what

580
00:45:39,162 --> 00:45:44,562
they did was to copy the strategy of MicroStrategy to buy Bitcoin in the same way.

581
00:45:44,602 --> 00:45:48,202
And they assumed that it's this infinite money glitch.

582
00:45:48,442 --> 00:45:51,402
Yeah, but it's not that's not how markets work.

583
00:45:51,722 --> 00:45:57,202
Yeah, if it was like you can see how like when a new company comes out that changes

584
00:45:57,202 --> 00:46:01,962
things like Walmart put all the products you like in like one big box store.

585
00:46:01,962 --> 00:46:04,202
So they put a lot of smaller stores out of business.

586
00:46:04,202 --> 00:46:05,882
But people are like, oh, this is convenient.

587
00:46:06,442 --> 00:46:11,202
And then Amazon did like shipping and stuff to the these are.

588
00:46:11,402 --> 00:46:14,482
But when people come up with a new business model, that's good.

589
00:46:14,482 --> 00:46:15,762
Everyone either has to.

590
00:46:16,842 --> 00:46:21,682
Compete against it, like do have some kind of comparative advantage in a different
way,

591
00:46:21,682 --> 00:46:24,602
product differentiation, or they have to like kind of adopt it.

592
00:46:24,882 --> 00:46:29,322
So it's like, for example, when airlines didn't used to have.

593
00:46:30,322 --> 00:46:35,762
Apps, phone apps, they didn't used to have online check in, but of course, once a
few

594
00:46:35,762 --> 00:46:38,122
people start doing that, then eventually everyone has to do it.

595
00:46:39,122 --> 00:46:45,042
Um, so ironically, Michael Saylor tried to use this metaphor in this conversation, I

596
00:46:45,042 --> 00:46:46,722
mean, there's so many things wrong with the.

597
00:46:48,402 --> 00:46:51,162
With the debate, it's impossible to know where to begin, but.

598
00:46:52,282 --> 00:46:56,162
He tried to do this electricity metaphor, but really, that's what that was exactly

599
00:46:56,162 --> 00:46:58,162
what Danny had just asked him.

600
00:47:00,402 --> 00:47:04,322
He had just asked Michael Saylor, like, oh, if you're doing these preferences, these

601
00:47:04,322 --> 00:47:05,202
other people have to do it.

602
00:47:05,882 --> 00:47:09,162
And then Michael Saylor says, well, yeah, when someone has electricity, then other

603
00:47:09,162 --> 00:47:09,642
people.

604
00:47:10,962 --> 00:47:13,202
Uh, we'll do it as well, but that's exactly.

605
00:47:14,042 --> 00:47:20,042
So it's kind of, it's truly bizarre if you really watch it, like he ducks the

606
00:47:20,042 --> 00:47:24,242
question, but then he used the metaphor that explains why he shouldn't have ducked

607
00:47:24,242 --> 00:47:24,922
the question.

608
00:47:24,922 --> 00:47:26,242
No, but it's always like this.

609
00:47:26,242 --> 00:47:28,202
It's just that we haven't paid attention.

610
00:47:28,762 --> 00:47:33,682
Yeah, that was what I was getting from investors early on 2022 or something.

611
00:47:34,042 --> 00:47:36,962
And they were asking him, so what if Bitcoin fails?

612
00:47:36,962 --> 00:47:41,762
And he was like, oh, what if the sun explodes or whatever?

613
00:47:41,762 --> 00:47:44,042
Or what if the earth starts spinning?

614
00:47:44,802 --> 00:47:45,522
And so am I.

615
00:47:45,522 --> 00:47:46,522
I like metaphor, too.

616
00:47:47,042 --> 00:47:47,922
But you're right.

617
00:47:47,962 --> 00:47:51,082
What I meant, what I should also have said is that.

618
00:47:52,762 --> 00:47:57,282
I think Saylor is also weirdly a victim in a way because everyone has been lying to

619
00:47:57,362 --> 00:48:01,362
Saylor also, they've just been sucking up to him because he's rich, so they haven't

620
00:48:01,362 --> 00:48:07,322
been telling him the, even though I think he's also a deranged person himself.

621
00:48:07,722 --> 00:48:12,642
But there was no hope because, of course, everyone's telling him that, you know,

622
00:48:12,642 --> 00:48:14,842
lightning is going to fix all Bitcoin's scale.

623
00:48:14,842 --> 00:48:17,882
And then, you know, if Michael Saylor will say something like lightning and these

624
00:48:17,882 --> 00:48:21,202
other layer two and layer three protocols, it's just like makeup stuff.

625
00:48:21,722 --> 00:48:24,442
He's just constantly bullshitting about nonsense.

626
00:48:24,442 --> 00:48:30,802
But it's like who would be telling him the bad news?

627
00:48:30,802 --> 00:48:31,642
Really, no one.

628
00:48:32,202 --> 00:48:33,082
So I don't know.

629
00:48:33,082 --> 00:48:33,802
Like you can.

630
00:48:34,442 --> 00:48:41,122
But what I do know is this is not a recipe for a healthy Bitcoin culture where

631
00:48:41,122 --> 00:48:42,282
everyone's lying to everyone else.

632
00:48:43,442 --> 00:48:45,482
And so that's just this is one.

633
00:48:45,482 --> 00:48:47,962
This is one during the Treasury companies, just one derangement.

634
00:48:48,002 --> 00:48:49,602
But you see in the post, can we read?

635
00:48:49,602 --> 00:48:50,602
Do you have it in front of you?

636
00:48:50,602 --> 00:48:54,322
I can also, but I have like multiple bullet points about like why the

637
00:48:54,322 --> 00:48:55,842
Treasury companies are not good.

638
00:48:55,882 --> 00:48:57,402
And this was again at the height.

639
00:48:57,802 --> 00:48:59,002
This was like in the summer.

640
00:48:59,842 --> 00:49:03,522
This was like at the height of their popularity and everyone was Bitcoin

641
00:49:03,522 --> 00:49:04,442
summer. That's what.

642
00:49:06,162 --> 00:49:09,642
And everyone was saying, you've got to get in on these, these are just going to

643
00:49:09,642 --> 00:49:12,122
print money and instead they've all destroyed money.

644
00:49:12,442 --> 00:49:15,242
And then people like, how did you know that would happen before it happened?

645
00:49:15,242 --> 00:49:18,642
It's like, you know, the idea isn't a good idea.

646
00:49:18,882 --> 00:49:23,842
There's no reason to give your Bitcoin away or paper stock.

647
00:49:24,162 --> 00:49:25,842
They say they're going to buy Bitcoin.

648
00:49:26,002 --> 00:49:27,762
They've got to pay their own salaries.

649
00:49:27,962 --> 00:49:33,762
They got to maybe pay who knows what kind of tax fee situation they're in with

650
00:49:33,762 --> 00:49:35,322
their the custodians.

651
00:49:35,322 --> 00:49:37,122
People could lose them. They could lose the money.

652
00:49:37,122 --> 00:49:40,922
You know, like FTX was taking care of people's Bitcoin.

653
00:49:40,922 --> 00:49:44,002
So they lost all, you know, lost the guy was stealing everyone's coins.

654
00:49:44,002 --> 00:49:47,842
So. So, yeah, there's absolutely no reason to do any of that.

655
00:49:47,842 --> 00:49:49,122
All of that is a terrible idea.

656
00:49:49,602 --> 00:49:53,322
Jim Chanos was 100 percent correct when he said it was agency costs.

657
00:49:53,322 --> 00:49:56,122
So the MNAV should always be less than one because it's a bad idea.

658
00:49:56,282 --> 00:50:01,282
It's basically he was being very polite as a very polite way of saying the idea is

659
00:50:01,282 --> 00:50:01,722
stupid.

660
00:50:02,079 --> 00:50:06,079
It's like saying someone else should like be spending time with your girlfriend or
something.

661
00:50:06,079 --> 00:50:09,079
What?

662
00:50:09,079 --> 00:50:22,079
I mean, in general, you know, it's like, oh, they should spend all the time with,
you know, you're supposed to have this Bitcoin for your own convenience yield, your
own property right on the coin.

663
00:50:22,079 --> 00:50:29,079
And it's like, oh, yeah, we'll we'll take off. Just give us all of your cash right
now. We'll take we'll take good care of it.

664
00:50:29,079 --> 00:50:33,079
And it's it's a terrible idea.

665
00:50:33,079 --> 00:50:44,079
I just want to praise the LayerTwo Labs marketing department or whoever decided that
it's a good idea to overdub the conversation between Michael Saylor and Danny.

666
00:50:44,079 --> 00:50:51,079
That was hilarious. That was one of the best memes, but it was second to the
Brazilian models reading the script of Luke Dash.

667
00:50:51,079 --> 00:50:56,079
You know, the problem is that was so good. We cooked so hard on that one.

668
00:50:56,079 --> 00:51:03,079
And now he doesn't want to do any other because he's afraid because it was so good.
He doesn't want to do it, but he did the dub.

669
00:51:03,079 --> 00:51:12,079
So we got a second. I got to tell him we've got to do another live action thing or
you're fired so that we get another idea out there.

670
00:51:12,079 --> 00:51:15,079
Now, too much success.

671
00:51:15,079 --> 00:51:19,079
I'm not sure if it's serious cat or someone else, but congratulations. It was very
good.

672
00:51:19,079 --> 00:51:23,079
And speaking of LayerTwo Labs, they're sponsoring this show and I got to plug it.

673
00:51:23,079 --> 00:51:32,079
Go to LayerTwoLabs.com slash download, get the software and also register to the
Drivechain Talk Telegram group, which is at DC Insiders.

674
00:51:32,079 --> 00:51:37,079
You're going to find a lot of funny jokes and a lot of action there. A lot of alpha.

675
00:51:38,079 --> 00:51:44,079
I mean, OK, so our software actually does scale a billion people. It does on board a
billion people.

676
00:51:44,079 --> 00:51:50,079
We tested this. So this is related to the Bitcoin cash, the giga megs.

677
00:51:50,079 --> 00:51:56,079
We have a script that simulates what it would be like if a certain number of
transactions were made.

678
00:51:57,079 --> 00:52:04,079
And now, you know, things are very different now in 2026 than they were in the
blocks as were started, which is now more than 10 years ago.

679
00:52:04,079 --> 00:52:09,079
And in the even the heated scaling Bitcoin era, that was 2015.

680
00:52:11,079 --> 00:52:17,079
It was September and December of 2015, so it was late 2015, so just barely 10 years.

681
00:52:17,079 --> 00:52:30,079
But now it's actually possible to you can run the script and it is possible to do
the process, this number of transactions.

682
00:52:30,079 --> 00:52:32,079
And another thing that must be pointed out is that.

683
00:52:35,079 --> 00:52:41,079
If you want a billion people using your software, then those transactions have to be
processed somewhere.

684
00:52:41,079 --> 00:52:45,079
I mean, the ideal thing would be only the sender and the recipient have to.

685
00:52:46,079 --> 00:52:50,079
But actually that I think it should be obvious that that doesn't work, because
ultimately.

686
00:52:51,079 --> 00:52:58,079
We all have to agree on the state of the because the world has lots and lots of
people, all of which could transact to each other.

687
00:52:58,079 --> 00:53:02,079
So it should be obvious that there has to be some kind of meshing together of
everything.

688
00:53:03,079 --> 00:53:04,079
Yeah, we've we've done all this.

689
00:53:04,079 --> 00:53:07,079
We have, you know, the Z side fork that uses the.

690
00:53:09,079 --> 00:53:20,079
The crate, the rust crate from the brilliant technicians at the Zcash altcoin, and
we have a privacy L2 that uses that library.

691
00:53:21,079 --> 00:53:23,079
We now have a quantum proof.

692
00:53:23,079 --> 00:53:24,079
This is brand new.

693
00:53:25,079 --> 00:53:26,079
We just have L2.

694
00:53:26,079 --> 00:53:29,079
We swapped out for quantum resistant signatures.

695
00:53:29,079 --> 00:53:34,079
BIP300 already does not use anything that it doesn't use.

696
00:53:34,079 --> 00:53:37,079
The BIP300 part doesn't use signature, so it is not vulnerable to.

697
00:53:40,079 --> 00:53:41,079
Quantum quantum computer.

698
00:53:43,079 --> 00:53:46,079
Or you see DSA like break or anything like that.

699
00:53:48,079 --> 00:53:49,079
So, yeah, we have all this.

700
00:53:49,079 --> 00:53:54,079
We have great stuff on there and it's really good and it's much better than the
lightning network.

701
00:53:54,079 --> 00:53:58,079
So it's not just I'm not just a critic, although I think at this point anyone who is
a critic.

702
00:54:00,079 --> 00:54:06,079
You know, is doing the Lord's work, so to speak, because the whole thing is has
produced these interlocking.

703
00:54:08,079 --> 00:54:15,079
Problems where, again, if you tell the truth about, hey, if you say the emperor has
no clothes and you say, oh, the guy tried to make a lightning transaction, but it
didn't work.

704
00:54:16,079 --> 00:54:19,079
Now you're you're an enemy of Bitcoin and everyone hates you.

705
00:54:20,079 --> 00:54:25,079
And again, not for being neutral, but for telling the truth about what you actually
saw with your own eyes.

706
00:54:26,079 --> 00:54:29,079
So then it just becomes, you know, it's just like a giant young in shadow.

707
00:54:30,079 --> 00:54:34,079
There's like this evil Frankenstein's monster of just overlapping derangements.

708
00:54:35,079 --> 00:54:39,079
And, yeah, who cares if like whether or not lightning works, if it's just going to
be in a treasury company.

709
00:54:40,079 --> 00:54:41,079
So they all overlap.

710
00:54:41,079 --> 00:54:42,079
All of them overlap.

711
00:54:42,079 --> 00:54:44,079
They're all of them are evil and they all overlap.

712
00:54:44,079 --> 00:54:48,079
And I think, you know, we add we certainly add new derangements every year.

713
00:54:49,079 --> 00:54:51,079
I don't know if they necessarily grow or get worse.

714
00:54:51,079 --> 00:54:53,079
Lightning has gotten worse and worse and worse.

715
00:54:53,079 --> 00:54:55,079
And now it's finally shrinking a little bit.

716
00:54:55,079 --> 00:54:59,079
But it's so big that who knows how much damage will be done.

717
00:55:00,079 --> 00:55:01,079
But, yeah, I don't know.

718
00:55:03,079 --> 00:55:09,079
You have any on the list that you were kind of like surprised by or you were like,
oh, I didn't even know that that wasn't true or something.

719
00:55:10,079 --> 00:55:13,079
No, I sort of agree with you on all points.

720
00:55:13,079 --> 00:55:16,079
I went through this a few times and I was like, this is so good.

721
00:55:16,079 --> 00:55:19,079
It's like a good compilation of everything wrong.

722
00:55:19,079 --> 00:55:24,079
I wish more people would just take one per day or whatever and just think about it.

723
00:55:25,079 --> 00:55:26,079
Yeah.

724
00:55:26,079 --> 00:55:29,079
But we have a question in the chat from Weird Robot.

725
00:55:29,079 --> 00:55:34,079
He says, all right, if someone wants to get involved and learn about Drivechains,
what's a good place to start?

726
00:55:35,079 --> 00:55:39,079
Yeah, just LayerTwoLabs.com slash download and try the software.

727
00:55:40,079 --> 00:55:43,079
And, yeah, it should work.

728
00:55:44,079 --> 00:55:47,079
We have new mobile wallets coming.

729
00:55:47,079 --> 00:55:50,079
But, of course, the mobile wallet is not that fun.

730
00:55:50,079 --> 00:55:52,079
But the really fun thing is you get Bitwindow.

731
00:55:52,079 --> 00:55:57,079
Bitwindow shows you, lets you see into the blockchain and see all this cool stuff
that's going on.

732
00:55:58,079 --> 00:56:01,079
And we are resetting the chain this particular week.

733
00:56:01,079 --> 00:56:03,079
So, unfortunately, this is not the best.

734
00:56:03,079 --> 00:56:09,079
Probably you want to go to the DC Insiders telegram, t.me slash dcinsiders.

735
00:56:09,079 --> 00:56:14,079
But, yeah, if you download, if you just download the software from LayerTwoLabs.com
slash download.

736
00:56:14,079 --> 00:56:16,079
And then you just try around.

737
00:56:16,079 --> 00:56:17,079
We have a faucet.

738
00:56:17,079 --> 00:56:20,079
We have two networks with fake coins.

739
00:56:20,079 --> 00:56:23,079
You can, by the way, the software also will connect.

740
00:56:23,079 --> 00:56:31,079
If you ask it to, it will connect to a regular Bitcoin Core V30 network or at least
V29.

741
00:56:31,079 --> 00:56:33,079
I think V30 maybe this week.

742
00:56:34,079 --> 00:56:36,079
And you can use Bitwindow with real coins.

743
00:56:36,079 --> 00:56:40,079
The only problem with that is our software is new.

744
00:56:40,079 --> 00:56:46,079
And, in particular, Bitwindow is designed to be like more of a move fast, break
things part.

745
00:56:46,079 --> 00:56:49,079
Whereas the other stuff is not designed to be that way.

746
00:56:49,079 --> 00:56:54,079
But, like, you know, the enforcer and the L2 full node software.

747
00:56:54,079 --> 00:56:59,079
But, yeah, Bitwindow is supposed to be kind of like more fun and interesting and a
little bit more.

748
00:56:59,079 --> 00:57:03,079
Because it is a fully cosmetic graphical user interface, you can swap out.

749
00:57:03,079 --> 00:57:13,079
You can fork that and make a different version without needing to, like, go through
a Bitcoin Core bureaucracy nonsense, which is the root of a lot of these problems.

750
00:57:13,079 --> 00:57:20,079
You could just fork Bitwindow and have your own Bitwindow and then you could change
the colors or just rewrite or just delete, tear things out.

751
00:57:20,079 --> 00:57:26,079
So, yeah, but I think the real way to actually get involved is to try the software.

752
00:57:26,079 --> 00:57:31,079
And that will give you a really deep connection to what is actually happening.

753
00:57:31,079 --> 00:57:37,079
And you get to see for itself all the good and the bad because to do the full node,
you have to sync.

754
00:57:37,079 --> 00:57:46,079
If you want to sync, our signet is pretty small, but it's still like two gigabytes
because we've ran it through maybe 500,000 blocks or so.

755
00:57:46,079 --> 00:57:47,079
But we are going to reset it.

756
00:57:47,079 --> 00:57:52,079
After running it for more than a year, this is the one week that we are resetting
it.

757
00:57:52,079 --> 00:57:56,079
So it should be easier than ever to do the L2L signet.

758
00:57:56,079 --> 00:58:05,079
And then the forknet, which resembles Bitcoin Core, you need the full like 700
gigabyte, 800 gigabyte blockchain for that.

759
00:58:05,079 --> 00:58:09,079
The 800 giga meg, we got to do, we got to pay homage to.

760
00:58:09,079 --> 00:58:15,079
That's, I mean, it's funny because, you know, as someone who speaks a lot, it's easy
to just say the wrong thing.

761
00:58:15,079 --> 00:58:19,079
But that is funny. That's just a funny.

762
00:58:19,079 --> 00:58:22,079
What does he think? Like, doesn't, does he use a computer?

763
00:58:22,079 --> 00:58:28,079
Calvinair. What an incredible, what a legend, but also maybe a crazy person.

764
00:58:28,079 --> 00:58:38,079
But, but yeah, so that's, yeah, be in the Telegram group, t.me slash dcinsiders.

765
00:58:38,079 --> 00:58:46,079
Talk on topic. These people on there sometimes ramble off topic and I have to go and
delete everything.

766
00:58:46,079 --> 00:58:51,079
We got a bunch of kooky people in there, but we got great people in there.

767
00:58:51,079 --> 00:58:55,079
And you even have Vitalik in there who just hangs out in there.

768
00:58:55,079 --> 00:59:01,079
Yeah. He's Shadow Hill, sometimes Nekro posts would be like, I don't really agree
with this.

769
00:59:01,079 --> 00:59:04,079
And we have some great people in there.

770
00:59:04,079 --> 00:59:10,079
And I think it was because of my interview with Vitalik when I plugged the Telegram
channel.

771
00:59:10,079 --> 00:59:12,079
Yeah, we had to like lock it down.

772
00:59:12,079 --> 00:59:14,079
Exactly. We've got a lot of spammers.

773
00:59:14,079 --> 00:59:20,079
Lots of things. Yeah. But hey, it's part of being big, I guess.

774
00:59:20,079 --> 00:59:28,079
But yeah, so in the, be in the Telegram group, follow me on Twitter.

775
00:59:28,079 --> 00:59:32,079
It's not that I need the followers, but that is a good way to learn about, obviously
going to tweet about stuff.

776
00:59:32,079 --> 00:59:35,079
But then trying the software is a very serious thing.

777
00:59:35,079 --> 00:59:43,079
You can see for yourself, oh, this part of the software isn't as fun or this is
really fun.

778
00:59:43,079 --> 00:59:46,079
This is really cool. What a cool idea. How does this work?

779
00:59:46,079 --> 00:59:53,079
And that's good. And we need, yeah, we need people to test and we need people to
find bugs.

780
00:59:53,079 --> 00:59:59,079
We have upgraded the front end, the graphical interface part a lot.

781
00:59:59,079 --> 01:00:02,079
But as a result, it's become less reliable.

782
01:00:02,079 --> 01:00:05,079
This is the growing pain. It's just a zigzag type of a thing.

783
01:00:05,079 --> 01:00:15,079
So before, that user interface sucked. Now it's good, but it sometimes doesn't work,
especially on Windows.

784
01:00:15,079 --> 01:00:22,079
God damn this Windows, you know, operating system is just cursed and they're just
ruining everything with it.

785
01:00:22,079 --> 01:00:26,079
It's awful, but whatever.

786
01:00:26,079 --> 01:00:33,079
But the point is, I think that, yeah, the Mac people have it the best because we
have most of the people who test our Mac.

787
01:00:33,079 --> 01:00:41,079
And of course, Linux. Those work better than the Windows one is temperamental.

788
01:00:41,079 --> 01:00:46,079
And because not enough people even test with it. So if, yeah, that would help if you
do.

789
01:00:46,079 --> 01:00:51,079
And then you can actually learn for yourself. You can see, oh, OK, you can download.

790
01:00:51,079 --> 01:00:57,079
You go click the window and you click to the sidechains tab. You click. You can
download Thunder, which is my L2 sidechain.

791
01:00:57,079 --> 01:01:02,079
And my plan is to have 14 of these geographically distributed L2s.

792
01:01:02,079 --> 01:01:08,079
So you have like North America Thunder, Southeast Asia Thunder or whatever.

793
01:01:08,079 --> 01:01:13,079
Europe Thunder, et cetera. And then you can run.

794
01:01:13,079 --> 01:01:18,079
You can go on GitHub and look up the scripts and you can see, oh, this is actually
we've tested this.

795
01:01:18,079 --> 01:01:24,079
And we improved the performance and it has been tested at a rate like a stopwatch.

796
01:01:24,079 --> 01:01:29,079
It's been tested at a rate that would allow eight billion people to onboard and use.

797
01:01:29,079 --> 01:01:34,079
Lightning can't even do something like that. No one would even write a test like
that because it's not possible.

798
01:01:34,079 --> 01:01:37,079
Because in order to onboard people to the Lightning Network, they need a channel.

799
01:01:37,079 --> 01:01:42,079
There's not enough L1 block space to give channels to everyone.

800
01:01:43,079 --> 01:01:50,079
So they can't even conceive of writing a test that we have already written and
passed.

801
01:01:50,079 --> 01:01:57,079
So, yeah, I think hanging out in the telegram is a good, very good option.

802
01:01:57,079 --> 01:02:00,079
And because that's where we hang out.

803
01:02:00,079 --> 01:02:07,079
I also want to mention something because you spoke along the lines of forking the
code and changing the color.

804
01:02:07,079 --> 01:02:13,079
I saw a post on the DriveChainTalk telegram channel about forking BlueWallet.

805
01:02:13,079 --> 01:02:18,079
And now it's called Red and it's in test flight on iOS.

806
01:02:18,079 --> 01:02:20,079
That's right. We have a mobile wallet.

807
01:02:20,079 --> 01:02:25,079
Is this going to be like the SPV way of trying the Drivechains without syncing your
node?

808
01:02:25,079 --> 01:02:29,079
Yeah, I think so. That is the idea is BlueWallet is great.

809
01:02:29,079 --> 01:02:37,079
And so I thought, well, also, even though I really like Electrum, you can only get
it on mobile Android.

810
01:02:37,079 --> 01:02:45,079
You can't get it on iOS. So I was like, oh, even though I love Electrum, I think
great piece of software.

811
01:02:45,079 --> 01:02:49,079
But we were like, well, let's get both. And then a BlueWallet is really good.

812
01:02:49,079 --> 01:02:54,079
And we wanted to pay homage, but we didn't want it to be like Bitcoin Cash where the
name is too similar.

813
01:02:54,079 --> 01:02:57,079
So we just changed to RedWallet. I hope they don't mind.

814
01:02:57,079 --> 01:03:04,079
But this is experimental and it basically it works. The L1 sending and receiving
money works.

815
01:03:04,079 --> 01:03:10,079
So will it ever work for all the L2s? Well, yeah, eventually.

816
01:03:10,079 --> 01:03:15,079
But, you know, we only just started this part up. But, yeah, if you want.

817
01:03:15,079 --> 01:03:20,079
Which should be possible. I think we're changing this as we speak.

818
01:03:20,079 --> 01:03:27,079
Before you had to be invited to the test, but now I think it would be anyone with
the link and can try it out.

819
01:03:27,079 --> 01:03:31,079
Of course, there's nothing really that groundbreaking about a mobile wallet.

820
01:03:31,079 --> 01:03:39,079
You know what I mean? Like there's no like Drivechain technology per se in the
mobile wallet.

821
01:03:39,079 --> 01:03:43,079
The Drivechain technology is about having competing L2s,

822
01:03:43,079 --> 01:03:50,079
letting anyone start up a new L2 without like changing code in Bitcoin Core or
something like that.

823
01:03:50,079 --> 01:03:56,079
Letting the L2s just live and die on their own transaction fees.

824
01:03:56,079 --> 01:04:03,079
And so we won't need to be centrally planned by Bitcoin Core.

825
01:04:03,079 --> 01:04:11,079
And we won't need Bitcoin Core to be infallible because not only are they not
infallible, but they are basically part of the derangement at this point.

826
01:04:11,079 --> 01:04:18,079
So. And the idea is that competition will cure everything.

827
01:04:18,079 --> 01:04:25,079
So if there's something wrong, like, oh, everyone's using to have L1, L1 lets you
move among the different L2s.

828
01:04:25,079 --> 01:04:33,079
And then, oh, if this L2 is not adding, you know, Nick Carter is going to say this
L2 is not adding quantum resistant signatures.

829
01:04:33,079 --> 01:04:40,079
Then they can either say. Well, we don't care about that because it's not a big
deal.

830
01:04:40,079 --> 01:04:49,079
And maybe they're right or they can say, OK, we'll add the quantum signatures or
someone can fork the code, create a different L2 that's almost exactly the same.

831
01:04:49,079 --> 01:04:54,079
Add the quantum resistant signatures. And now we have that option as users.

832
01:04:54,079 --> 01:05:00,079
We have that option, optional different L2. Plus, there is no consensus on which
signatures are better for Bitcoin.

833
01:05:00,079 --> 01:05:06,079
Like you have the Winternets ones, you have the Lamport ones, you have a bunch of
hybrids.

834
01:05:06,079 --> 01:05:15,079
Like it's still a very experimental phase and maybe that you're going to have
different sidechains that approach quantum resistance in a different way.

835
01:05:15,079 --> 01:05:18,079
Precisely right. And there'll also be a lot of bike shedding.

836
01:05:18,079 --> 01:05:24,079
So people will just have endless debates because the debate really isn't about which
signature is better.

837
01:05:24,079 --> 01:05:30,079
Like, let's say it's an imagine a situation where there's four types of quantum
resistant signature.

838
01:05:30,079 --> 01:05:38,079
We'll just make this up. You know, let's call them A, B, C, D. And actually, A and B
are much better than C and D.

839
01:05:38,079 --> 01:05:45,079
It's not totally clear. This is a fake scenario I just invented now. But in the
world we have now, what will happen?

840
01:05:45,079 --> 01:05:50,079
Everyone will feel a need to weigh in on A and B being better than C and D.

841
01:05:50,079 --> 01:05:56,079
But then they won't agree on A versus B because A and B are kind of like equally
good.

842
01:05:56,079 --> 01:06:01,079
Both of them would get the job done, say, maybe. Or maybe all four of them would get
the job done.

843
01:06:01,079 --> 01:06:09,079
But, you know, A and B are just clearly better than C and D. So what will happen is
there'll be lots and lots and lots of discussion.

844
01:06:09,079 --> 01:06:14,079
And nothing will actually get done because people will say, oh, how do we know?

845
01:06:14,079 --> 01:06:19,079
And then they'll put it and then they'll make hats. They'll make baseball hats that
say, oh, I'm Team A.

846
01:06:19,079 --> 01:06:24,079
And then they'll put stuff in their Twitter name and they'll say, oh, are you an A
or B?

847
01:06:24,079 --> 01:06:32,079
And we'll have this big fight over it. And the whole thing will be a complete, no
offense, just fucking waste of everyone's time, which is annoying.

848
01:06:32,079 --> 01:06:41,079
And then what would happen in the same universe, in the same universe that has
Drivechain already or has any kind of L2 competition?

849
01:06:41,079 --> 01:06:48,079
But what it would do is it would say, like, OK, we want a quantum resistant option.

850
01:06:48,079 --> 01:06:52,079
Someone would look. They would invest a little bit of time. They would say, oh, A,
B, C, D.

851
01:06:52,079 --> 01:06:55,079
They're thinking about it for like one or two weeks and say, yeah, A and B seem
better.

852
01:06:55,079 --> 01:07:00,079
They just pick one and put it in. And then no one would even ever talk about this
again.

853
01:07:00,079 --> 01:07:13,079
They would just say this is the quantum resistant option. And then maybe like some
obscure, arcane academic people would be like, oh, did you know that actually they
picked B, but A would have been slightly better.

854
01:07:13,079 --> 01:07:20,079
18 months later, we realized A would have been slightly better in these obscure ways
that really no one cares about.

855
01:07:20,079 --> 01:07:24,079
That's an that's an insane way to run the project. But that is how we run the
project.

856
01:07:25,079 --> 01:07:29,079
It will all be bike shedding. All the soft fork talk has been bike shedding.

857
01:07:29,079 --> 01:07:50,079
So it has all just been about the political reputation of the people talking instead
of the cost benefit analysis on adding the soft fork because all of the op-nop and
op-success, op-true, all of these style of soft fork carry absolutely no risk
whatsoever.

858
01:07:51,079 --> 01:07:55,079
And they are ignorable, opt-in and easily reversible.

859
01:07:55,079 --> 01:08:01,079
So they have basically as little risk as you could possibly ever have.

860
01:08:01,079 --> 01:08:06,079
This is like the theoretical minimum level of risk that anything could have.

861
01:08:06,079 --> 01:08:17,079
And in fact, random other changes such as Matt Corallo's change to remove 600
millionths of a second from a matrix multiplication or something that ended up
having an inflation bug.

862
01:08:17,079 --> 01:08:33,079
I'm not saying that Matt Corallo did the wrong thing or even that he made a mistake
because whenever anyone does any software development or whenever anyone does
anything, there will be tiny little mistakes here and there.

863
01:08:33,079 --> 01:08:36,079
That is healthy and that is totally normal.

864
01:08:36,079 --> 01:08:46,079
And the only reason I bring that up is to say that was not Matt Corallo's 600-second
matrix multiplier, 600 millionths of a second matrix multiplication.

865
01:08:46,079 --> 01:08:48,079
That was not a hard fork.

866
01:08:48,079 --> 01:08:49,079
That was not a soft fork.

867
01:08:49,079 --> 01:08:50,079
That was not a proposal.

868
01:08:50,079 --> 01:08:56,079
That was not a BIP, but it accidentally had an inflation bug and it would have hard
forked unexpectedly.

869
01:08:57,079 --> 01:09:03,079
So we have that and then we have – that's like the normal – that's the baseline.

870
01:09:03,079 --> 01:09:07,079
And then we have – and all of that actually happened.

871
01:09:07,079 --> 01:09:08,079
That wasn't like a theoretical thing.

872
01:09:08,079 --> 01:09:10,079
That was made in the Bitcoin core.

873
01:09:10,079 --> 01:09:16,079
Again, it had a super obscure bug, the recent one, where it would just delete your
wallet and delete all of your coins.

874
01:09:16,079 --> 01:09:19,079
Now, super obscure, yes.

875
01:09:19,079 --> 01:09:21,079
But still, that's not good.

876
01:09:21,079 --> 01:09:25,079
Bitcoin core should not be – it's definitely the number one job.

877
01:09:25,079 --> 01:09:28,079
It should not delete all of the user's coins.

878
01:09:28,079 --> 01:09:30,079
We don't want that.

879
01:09:30,079 --> 01:09:38,079
But this is the baseline for software development is that when you do it, there are
tiny mistakes.

880
01:09:38,079 --> 01:09:42,079
And by doing nothing, you also have huge mistakes.

881
01:09:42,079 --> 01:09:46,079
You have a hard bleed and you have dependencies and you have all kinds of stuff.

882
01:09:46,079 --> 01:09:48,079
Vulnerabilities are discovered.

883
01:09:48,079 --> 01:09:54,079
And then they have to be disclosed and you have to have this thing.

884
01:09:54,079 --> 01:09:57,079
So by not doing anything, you have a risk.

885
01:09:57,079 --> 01:09:59,079
And then by doing something, you have a risk.

886
01:09:59,079 --> 01:10:00,079
This is the baseline level of risk.

887
01:10:00,079 --> 01:10:08,079
The soft fork that are the op-nop, op-true, op-success, they are beneath that
threshold of just the normal everyday risk.

888
01:10:08,079 --> 01:10:13,079
They are like literally as low risk as you could possibly hit with any idea.

889
01:10:13,079 --> 01:10:16,079
But yet we bike-shed.

890
01:10:16,079 --> 01:10:17,079
You know what I mean?

891
01:10:17,079 --> 01:10:20,079
So this is like a case where you have ideas A, B, C, D, A through G.

892
01:10:21,079 --> 01:10:28,079
All of them have some big benefit to Bitcoin and zero cost, zero risk.

893
01:10:28,079 --> 01:10:34,079
No cost in the sense of any other – would cost any other software change.

894
01:10:34,079 --> 01:10:39,079
Things that are not harder software, things that are just refactoring code,
maintaining code.

895
01:10:39,079 --> 01:10:44,079
So these are all – A through G are all good, but instead we get none of them.

896
01:10:44,079 --> 01:10:46,079
And no one does anything about it.

897
01:10:46,079 --> 01:10:54,079
And if you try to do anything about it, you are accused of trying to attack Bitcoin
or trying to break Bitcoin.

898
01:10:54,079 --> 01:10:56,079
So actually, again, everything is flipped.

899
01:10:56,079 --> 01:11:12,079
All the good people get criticized and the people who are doing the wrong thing, the
apathy, the negligence of Ava Chao and the spinelessness that they won't engage
because they are worried about how the controversy will affect them.

900
01:11:12,079 --> 01:11:15,079
The selfishness, that is rewarded.

901
01:11:15,079 --> 01:11:23,079
And again, with the opportune with Luke and they make a bunch of attention about
this fake issue.

902
01:11:23,079 --> 01:11:26,079
They get rewarded with the attention.

903
01:11:26,079 --> 01:11:28,079
The whole community is distracted for two years.

904
01:11:28,079 --> 01:11:40,079
So these are the big problems, which are that we have this scar tissue that won't
heal, but also like it has a deranging effect on the community.

905
01:11:41,079 --> 01:11:52,079
To be honest, I feel like the biggest derangement is ordinals and basically the
aftermath of people discovering how to do NFTs on Bitcoin, like not discovering.

906
01:11:52,079 --> 01:11:53,079
This is nothing new.

907
01:11:53,079 --> 01:11:57,079
It's been done before with colored coins and counterparty and Omni.

908
01:11:57,079 --> 01:12:01,079
And basically this trend came to Bitcoin once again.

909
01:12:02,079 --> 01:12:15,079
And the people who got on boarded to Bitcoin via memes and narratives about what it
is and how it works, they sort of fell for the whole story that this is an attack
and this is something that needs to get patched.

910
01:12:15,079 --> 01:12:20,079
Like this is a CV as Luke Dashjr. submitted it.

911
01:12:20,079 --> 01:12:33,079
And then he built this cult around his idea that Bitcoin needs to receive a lot of
filters and he should be the one who is put in charge of deciding what is a good
transaction and what is not.

912
01:12:33,079 --> 01:12:38,079
And I think Casey sort of broke Bitcoiners like spiritually.

913
01:12:38,079 --> 01:12:39,079
Yes.

914
01:12:39,079 --> 01:12:48,079
Because there are a lot of derangements that followed when they realized that their
plans are not working, when the goalposts kept moving.

915
01:12:48,079 --> 01:12:52,079
At first they were saying we're going to filter Bitcoin and it's going to remain
pure.

916
01:12:52,079 --> 01:12:54,079
And then they said, well, we can't filter everything.

917
01:12:54,079 --> 01:12:56,079
Well, we can just filter this.

918
01:12:56,079 --> 01:12:58,079
Well, filters are working.

919
01:12:58,079 --> 01:13:07,079
This was, I think, Supertestnet who joined my show and said this, that filters are
working because they make your node use less bandwidth.

920
01:13:07,079 --> 01:13:09,079
That was his argument.

921
01:13:09,079 --> 01:13:14,079
And I'm like, that's not what filters working actually means.

922
01:13:14,079 --> 01:13:16,079
It was supposed to keep the network secure.

923
01:13:16,079 --> 01:13:18,079
It's not about just your node.

924
01:13:18,079 --> 01:13:22,079
He's like, yeah, but it helps my node save some bandwidth, maybe in some country.

925
01:13:22,079 --> 01:13:24,079
Yeah, that's not the criterion, though.

926
01:13:24,079 --> 01:13:31,079
He knows perfectly well you could do blocks only or you could just shut your node
off and then it would be using no bandwidth.

927
01:13:31,079 --> 01:13:33,079
Like that's not the point.

928
01:13:33,079 --> 01:13:39,079
If you want – if you still want to get – if you still want to measure confirmations,
you can run it in blocks only.

929
01:13:39,079 --> 01:13:41,079
You can run it with no mempool.

930
01:13:41,079 --> 01:13:43,079
You can just say I don't want any mempool.

931
01:13:43,079 --> 01:13:45,079
That will save a lot of bandwidth.

932
01:13:45,079 --> 01:13:46,079
It's actually reversed.

933
01:13:46,079 --> 01:13:54,079
I mean I hate to get bogged down in the technical weeds, but the whole point of a
lot of this stuff was we want the mempool to match the actual block.

934
01:13:54,079 --> 01:13:59,079
This is like – I'm just going to give people like a two-minute technical dump.

935
01:13:59,079 --> 01:14:02,079
I know everyone is going to find this boring and crazy, but the –

936
01:14:02,079 --> 01:14:04,079
That's why the show exists.

937
01:14:04,079 --> 01:14:05,079
Yeah.

938
01:14:05,079 --> 01:14:09,079
The show is definitely like your place for it.

939
01:14:10,079 --> 01:14:17,079
When the – okay, so if the mempool really matches where the next block is found,
then it's redundant.

940
01:14:17,079 --> 01:14:23,079
Okay, so the way the software used to work was every Bitcoin node would download the
transactions twice.

941
01:14:23,079 --> 01:14:27,079
First, it would download them whenever someone broadcasts them in real time.

942
01:14:27,079 --> 01:14:32,079
Then when someone found a block, they would send you the whole block.

943
01:14:32,079 --> 01:14:37,079
Back then, it didn't matter that you downloaded them twice because they were
basically empty.

944
01:14:37,079 --> 01:14:42,079
There was like Hal Finney's transaction to Satoshi or vice versa.

945
01:14:42,079 --> 01:14:45,079
So there's only like three transactions per block, and it doesn't matter.

946
01:14:45,079 --> 01:14:48,079
But eventually everyone realized that this is actually really stupid.

947
01:14:48,079 --> 01:14:51,079
We don't want to download them twice.

948
01:14:51,079 --> 01:14:54,079
We already have them in the mempool.

949
01:14:54,079 --> 01:15:02,079
So they came up with these clever things that people have heard of maybe, but these
are these various near blocks.

950
01:15:02,570 --> 01:15:06,250
These are these various near blocks, whatever, compact blocks, Xthin, it was called
in Bitcoin Cash.

951
01:15:06,570 --> 01:15:14,450
There was this thing, it was Erlay, there's all these things, these ideas about the,
what was that one that had like the photon, like light name, I forgot.

952
01:15:14,690 --> 01:15:15,570
Do you remember the name?

953
01:15:15,770 --> 01:15:17,050
But people can find it.

954
01:15:17,530 --> 01:15:29,410
The point is, people invented all this stuff, the Bloom filters, they invented all
this stuff, so that if you have a mempool where you have basically the same block,
and the block

955
01:15:29,410 --> 01:15:32,130
comes in, oh, it says, oh, we already have these transactions.

956
01:15:32,170 --> 01:15:36,970
So I only downloaded them once instead of twice, doing more with less, just very
smart.

957
01:15:38,210 --> 01:15:55,810
Now, the whole reason with the operator turn drama, it was why they wanted to get
rid of that is because the mempool, when people just broadcast directly to
slipstream, when they broadcast directly to the miner, they broadcast directly to
marathon or whatever, the transaction accelerator.

958
01:15:56,810 --> 01:15:59,490
Now there's a transaction, now it doesn't, they don't match anymore.

959
01:16:00,890 --> 01:16:05,530
When that block is found, it has the ordinal, but it doesn't match the expected
block.

960
01:16:05,770 --> 01:16:11,650
So actually, the bandwidth, we're now back into the, it sabotages the efficiency of
the Bloom filters.

961
01:16:12,250 --> 01:16:14,050
So SuperTesla is actually wrong.

962
01:16:14,050 --> 01:16:15,730
I, you know, I like SuperTesla a lot.

963
01:16:16,810 --> 01:16:18,290
It's a friend and a super nice guy.

964
01:16:19,170 --> 01:16:26,490
But actually the bandwidth usage goes up when it doesn't match, because you cannot
take advantage of these technologies that were invented.

965
01:16:26,730 --> 01:16:31,610
So that was why Bitcoin Core was like, well, hey, these transactions are making it
in anyway.

966
01:16:31,890 --> 01:16:34,570
They're harming the node when it doesn't match.

967
01:16:34,570 --> 01:16:35,610
So let's just make it match.

968
01:16:35,610 --> 01:16:36,930
We'll have our mempool match.

969
01:16:37,250 --> 01:16:45,210
And that's why it is a desirable thing to have your mempool match marathon mining
pool, their mempool.

970
01:16:47,010 --> 01:16:48,050
You want the mempools to match.

971
01:16:48,050 --> 01:16:49,170
It actually saves bandwidth.

972
01:16:49,370 --> 01:16:51,490
And there's another thing that I have to point out.

973
01:16:51,930 --> 01:17:01,210
When the transactions are broadcast across the network, they kind of like, you know,
they kind of evenly diffuse through the network and kind of like a random chaotic
way.

974
01:17:01,930 --> 01:17:02,730
And this is good.

975
01:17:03,450 --> 01:17:09,090
When the block is found in contrast, there's this pulse across the network.

976
01:17:09,450 --> 01:17:13,810
Everyone tries to download the exact same file at the same time.

977
01:17:14,090 --> 01:17:34,690
So all of a sudden, you know, it may not have mattered now, but back in 2015, you
could tell, clever hacker people could tell, and the internet service provider and
certainly the government and the NSA in the United States, they could tell who is
running a Bitcoin node because a block would be found and bang.

978
01:17:34,730 --> 01:17:38,210
Oh, suddenly all these people want to download a one megabyte file at the same time.

979
01:17:38,610 --> 01:17:41,610
But that's not the case if you take advantage of these bloom filters.

980
01:17:42,090 --> 01:17:45,690
So all this stuff was a good, removing op return was always a good idea.

981
01:17:45,850 --> 01:17:48,730
Whoever pays for the transaction is the rightful owner.

982
01:17:49,050 --> 01:17:54,090
You know, Luke's plan to like go down the list and start censoring people because
they make transactions that he doesn't like.

983
01:17:54,410 --> 01:17:56,690
That is what will stop it from being money.

984
01:17:57,010 --> 01:17:59,330
So this whole argument about, oh, Bitcoin is for money.

985
01:17:59,330 --> 01:18:01,690
It's not for JPEGs.

986
01:18:01,930 --> 01:18:03,290
That is the stupidest thing in the world.

987
01:18:03,770 --> 01:18:11,250
Once you censor someone's ability to use that, their money the way they want to use
it, that's what makes it not money anymore.

988
01:18:11,650 --> 01:18:15,730
So it's only money if you can use it for the JPEGs, actually.

989
01:18:15,730 --> 01:18:17,370
So they're wrong, just wrong about everything.

990
01:18:17,850 --> 01:18:23,690
But instead, we had to spend like multiple years, two and a half years talking about
this issue where one side.

991
01:18:23,690 --> 01:18:26,130
I've seen it come back like a couple of days ago.

992
01:18:26,130 --> 01:18:28,090
I've seen Hudlow not post about it.

993
01:18:28,090 --> 01:18:36,610
And the infinity divided by twenty one million guy or twenty one divided, no, I
think it's infinity divided by twenty one million.

994
01:18:36,610 --> 01:18:39,730
He was talking about this and it seems like it doesn't go away.

995
01:18:39,730 --> 01:18:40,930
It gets engagement.

996
01:18:40,970 --> 01:18:45,450
It gets some companies have figured out ways to sell products because of this.

997
01:18:45,450 --> 01:18:52,170
Like they sell nodes in a box that you plug to the wall and you get to choose
between core or knots.

998
01:18:52,970 --> 01:19:03,730
Yeah, and everyone knows that the knots node actually, when push comes to shove, it
does not reject the it will take the block full of JPEGs.

999
01:19:04,050 --> 01:19:06,210
So it does absolutely nothing whatsoever.

1000
01:19:06,370 --> 01:19:07,810
But all this has been repeated.

1001
01:19:08,450 --> 01:19:11,250
You know, this was all this was obviously like the first week or two.

1002
01:19:11,570 --> 01:19:13,210
And the people who are arguing.

1003
01:19:13,210 --> 01:19:29,770
You know, both sides have basically not changed their arguments, I think, you know,
like everyone's been saying the whole time, should I think a lot of it is
misexplained, though, so like what a lot of people have tried to say is something
like everyone hates spam, but we don't know how to do it, what to do about it.

1004
01:19:29,770 --> 01:19:31,810
But I mean, this is actually not my view.

1005
01:19:31,850 --> 01:19:32,730
I think it's good.

1006
01:19:32,730 --> 01:19:37,050
Anyone who pays if you pay transaction fees, you're going to be able to do it.

1007
01:19:37,370 --> 01:19:39,370
But I mean, this is actually not my view.

1008
01:19:39,410 --> 01:19:40,210
I think it's good.

1009
01:19:40,210 --> 01:19:44,610
Anyone who pays if you pay transaction fees on L1, that's good.

1010
01:19:45,210 --> 01:19:47,010
So it doesn't matter if it's a JPEG.

1011
01:19:47,170 --> 01:19:58,930
And in fact, plenty of people have pointed out that the JPEG transaction is actually
easier for your full node to process because what's difficult for your node is to
check many signatures.

1012
01:19:58,930 --> 01:20:06,170
So if you have this big JPEG crowding out a bunch of transactions that have
signatures, that is much, much, much easier.

1013
01:20:06,650 --> 01:20:09,850
People often they will sink a node and they'll say, oh, my node sunk really fast.

1014
01:20:09,890 --> 01:20:11,490
It was sinking really fast until this point.

1015
01:20:12,170 --> 01:20:13,490
And now it's going really slow.

1016
01:20:13,770 --> 01:20:17,490
What they don't know is that they've reached the default.

1017
01:20:18,730 --> 01:20:19,730
Assume valid.

1018
01:20:20,810 --> 01:20:33,890
Check in the software where before that point, the Bitcoin software does not check,
it checks everything about the math of the transaction, you know, like that you sent
five coins from A to B and the five minus five plus five.

1019
01:20:34,290 --> 01:20:37,890
But it doesn't check the ECDSA signature or the whatever signature.

1020
01:20:38,330 --> 01:20:42,770
And so after a certain point, it starts actually checking those.

1021
01:20:42,770 --> 01:20:46,690
So they think, oh, my node was going so fast and now it's so slow.

1022
01:20:47,010 --> 01:20:47,770
Why is that?

1023
01:20:48,370 --> 01:20:49,290
My computer slow down?

1024
01:20:49,410 --> 01:20:56,090
No, it's because the signature checking is like, you know, you should consult
Jamison Lopp or someone.

1025
01:20:56,130 --> 01:20:58,690
Someone actually timed it as to like what.

1026
01:20:59,690 --> 01:21:01,490
But this is some huge percentage.

1027
01:21:02,250 --> 01:21:07,050
It's on the order of like 30 percent or maybe even 30 percent, 70 percent or
something like that.

1028
01:21:07,050 --> 01:21:13,130
But the point is, it's huge, a huge percentage of the work and the time spent
downloading and checking the block chain.

1029
01:21:14,850 --> 01:21:20,650
It's checking the signatures, and so if you have a OP return image, it crowds out a
bunch of signatures.

1030
01:21:20,650 --> 01:21:23,850
Well, then your node can take a vacation and it doesn't have to work as hard.

1031
01:21:23,970 --> 01:21:26,370
Your computer is actually easier for you to download the block chain.

1032
01:21:26,370 --> 01:21:29,570
It's easier for you to validate your own incoming transactions.

1033
01:21:29,890 --> 01:21:32,490
So all these things make Bitcoin more useful as money.

1034
01:21:33,410 --> 01:21:39,930
If they're willing to pay more for L1 block space, they crowd out a bunch of, quote,
real transactions.

1035
01:21:40,210 --> 01:21:41,370
By real, they mean.

1036
01:21:42,450 --> 01:21:45,610
People who didn't value the network and they weren't willing to pay the transaction
fee.

1037
01:21:46,330 --> 01:21:56,730
So this whole thing, again, is a situation where all the good people have been in
this particular case, it does seem like Luke is like totally losing the issue.

1038
01:21:57,730 --> 01:22:06,850
Which he should, because he's wrong, but it is the fact that we even had to talk
about it and that we still, like, how is it not a closed issue?

1039
01:22:07,290 --> 01:22:18,690
I don't understand, but it bodes very badly for, you know, just imagine what happens
when an actual problem comes along.

1040
01:22:20,130 --> 01:22:26,450
We're not going to be able to solve that if we can't solve this tiny, this is the
tiniest, you know, toothpick of a problem.

1041
01:22:26,450 --> 01:22:31,290
We should be able to crush this problem in about five seconds and get on with our
lives.

1042
01:22:31,290 --> 01:22:34,370
But we are still talking about it.

1043
01:22:36,690 --> 01:22:49,890
Yeah, and it's horrible the way in which this was presented and the way in which
they went on a witch hunt to basically provide personal arguments from the lives of
the core developers and nothing about their work per se.

1044
01:22:50,650 --> 01:22:56,330
Like, I've seen so many attacks on Gloria Zhao and Eva Zhao and whatever.

1045
01:22:56,570 --> 01:23:03,570
I hate to interrupt, you know that I just love to just talk and talk and talk, but
I'm just going to get this in quickly about that.

1046
01:23:03,570 --> 01:23:09,850
I'll let you give everyone the details, but this is a perfect example of then they
did the right thing and then they get attacked.

1047
01:23:09,850 --> 01:23:19,010
So this is this deranging effect that I'm talking about is, but now why don't you
tell everyone about this crazy, that people are so rude for no reason, you know.

1048
01:23:20,570 --> 01:23:23,170
Yeah, but the funny part is that.

1049
01:23:24,490 --> 01:23:39,250
OK, Bitcoin Core V30 had a bug which was deleting like secondary wallet files that
you had in your installation, and if you did not back them up, you could have lost
your coins.

1050
01:23:40,010 --> 01:23:48,970
This was a very big deal, but they made a much bigger deal of who Gloria Zhao dated
before she got into Bitcoin and how she got into Bitcoin.

1051
01:23:48,970 --> 01:23:55,850
Like they established this whole conspiracy theory about why she's there and how she
got promoted.

1052
01:23:55,850 --> 01:23:59,690
And there's the Bitcoin University guy who only makes everything worse.

1053
01:24:00,290 --> 01:24:06,170
He likes to put fuel on fire and just ignite every possible detail.

1054
01:24:06,570 --> 01:24:12,170
I wish this was more about facts and more about what's actually happening, but these
guys don't like facts.

1055
01:24:12,170 --> 01:24:17,730
They just want their narrative about what they think Bitcoin is to be proven right.

1056
01:24:18,210 --> 01:24:20,690
And they're just going to follow someone who proves them right.

1057
01:24:21,010 --> 01:24:23,010
They're going to become part of this echo chamber.

1058
01:24:23,410 --> 01:24:27,290
There is a reward for virtue signaling inside of this echo chamber.

1059
01:24:27,290 --> 01:24:35,290
You get invited to conferences, you receive some products from whatever companies
are fueling this conflict.

1060
01:24:35,810 --> 01:24:37,890
You might even get a job at ocean mining.

1061
01:24:38,890 --> 01:24:48,050
And this comes at the expense of having an actual conversation about something which
was supposed to get into the code to get merged.

1062
01:24:48,050 --> 01:24:54,650
Like for a while, it seemed like CTV was just going to get activated and there are
some arguments in favor of it.

1063
01:24:55,330 --> 01:25:01,410
It was also a time when OP_CAT was supposed to get activated, but we did not get to
that point.

1064
01:25:01,770 --> 01:25:07,690
Every time there was this social distraction that led us nowhere productive.

1065
01:25:08,090 --> 01:25:22,890
And I think this is a very big derangement, which has more to do with the culture
than with the development itself, because I don't think there is any other money
network in the world which discourages users from actually using it.

1066
01:25:23,890 --> 01:25:24,890
Yeah, precisely.

1067
01:25:24,890 --> 01:25:25,890
That's where the ordinance comes back.

1068
01:25:25,890 --> 01:25:38,890
I don't think there's any other place in the world where developers are feeling
frustrated and miserable and they feel like they're spending a decade of their life
pushing for something and it leaves them in a whirl.

1069
01:25:39,490 --> 01:25:40,490
Whatever you think.

1070
01:25:40,490 --> 01:25:42,490
People can have whatever opinion about me that they want.

1071
01:25:42,490 --> 01:25:44,170
But let's just take Jeremy Rubin.

1072
01:25:44,170 --> 01:25:47,330
We're talking like these are like generational talent people.

1073
01:25:47,330 --> 01:25:48,330
You know what I mean?

1074
01:25:48,730 --> 01:25:55,050
I don't want to say this is like LeBron James or whatever of like a Bitcoin or
something, because, you know, who knows?

1075
01:25:55,210 --> 01:26:04,770
But the point is, this is like, you know, an MIT educated, passionate super
specialist pouring years of time into something.

1076
01:26:05,730 --> 01:26:10,050
And again, because it's an op-nop thing, it has no risk.

1077
01:26:11,450 --> 01:26:13,130
People don't believe that, but it's true.

1078
01:26:13,290 --> 01:26:17,770
This is one of the other derangements is that people don't understand what the soft
fork is at all.

1079
01:26:18,170 --> 01:26:20,890
So you have all kinds of people who think it's a change to the.

1080
01:26:21,850 --> 01:26:27,050
If you think that a soft fork is a change to the Bitcoin protocol, that is only half
right.

1081
01:26:27,050 --> 01:26:39,050
And if you don't understand which half of it is not right, then you don't understand
why it was invented in the first place, because it lets you let's you just run the
old protocol without any downside as long as you don't try the new feature.

1082
01:26:39,410 --> 01:26:42,410
So, of course, if you want to use the new feature, you have to update.

1083
01:26:43,410 --> 01:26:48,690
But if you don't want to use the feature, you do not have to update and you are not
you have suffered no penalties as a result.

1084
01:26:50,050 --> 01:27:01,730
So these are like common sense things that everyone used to know, but today the
opposite is taken for granted that, of course, the soft fork might break Bitcoin,
whatever.

1085
01:27:02,170 --> 01:27:09,210
And so, yeah, CTV, again, you have like this kind of talent.

1086
01:27:10,210 --> 01:27:23,250
Normally, think of another industry, like if someone went into, I don't know,
farming or chemistry or something and they go in and they're like this, you know,
they're the MIT educated.

1087
01:27:23,250 --> 01:27:25,850
I'm not saying that if you go to MIT, your ideas are automatically great.

1088
01:27:25,850 --> 01:27:31,250
I'm just saying, like, let's say you have a very you have you have a serious person
who takes a serious look at something.

1089
01:27:31,450 --> 01:27:33,210
There's something they've spent 10 years.

1090
01:27:34,330 --> 01:27:38,330
Working in 24 seven and they spent like a year or two on a particular thing.

1091
01:27:39,490 --> 01:27:41,050
For free to give away.

1092
01:27:42,810 --> 01:27:51,890
And then people just say, you know, we don't want it, and it's like that is just
literally insane, the fact that anyone would even do that.

1093
01:27:52,890 --> 01:27:59,290
And the issue is that it affects the prestige economy, which is also corrupt.

1094
01:27:59,290 --> 01:28:03,770
So it's like if you get your soft fork and then you get credit, you get too much
credit.

1095
01:28:03,770 --> 01:28:06,770
Everyone says, aha, this person is an authority on Bitcoin.

1096
01:28:06,810 --> 01:28:13,730
You can't have that. Then they might disagree with what whoever anyone says, Saylor
says or something.

1097
01:28:14,130 --> 01:28:16,490
So, yeah, unfortunately, a lot of these things are all like combined.

1098
01:28:16,490 --> 01:28:24,170
So like there's like Swan, Michael Saylor, the crazy Bitcoin University guy.

1099
01:28:27,410 --> 01:28:38,490
Yeah, these are all like the people who have no actual talent and they they are just
well, their talent is virtue signaling on Twitter and putting other people down.

1100
01:28:39,210 --> 01:28:48,850
Making it seem as though they hate shitcoining, even though a lot of these people
are like very late to the game or they they sell something else.

1101
01:28:48,850 --> 01:28:54,170
I mean, basically, MSTR stock is a shitcoin, you know, and so is the Bitcoin
University.

1102
01:28:55,010 --> 01:28:58,610
The fee or whatever, you know, these are like competing.

1103
01:28:58,970 --> 01:29:00,450
You could buy Bitcoin with that money.

1104
01:29:00,810 --> 01:29:03,610
But instead, Jeremy Rubin's giving away technology for free.

1105
01:29:03,890 --> 01:29:06,530
His idea is one of the only ones other than mine.

1106
01:29:07,530 --> 01:29:12,650
That would let you increase the number of, in a way, you know, there's a lot of
details.

1107
01:29:12,650 --> 01:29:15,530
Mine is better at this than his in one way.

1108
01:29:15,530 --> 01:29:23,010
But the point is, his is one where you could actually onboard more people to the
Lightning Network with one single L1 transaction.

1109
01:29:25,890 --> 01:29:27,290
Yeah, like no one is interested in that.

1110
01:29:27,330 --> 01:29:29,970
This is because, of course, no one actually uses the Lightning Network.

1111
01:29:30,010 --> 01:29:33,370
They think they do, but they're really using Primal to Primal Zap or something else.

1112
01:29:33,370 --> 01:29:37,810
The whole thing is like a giant self-reinforcing error.

1113
01:29:38,410 --> 01:29:40,770
The whole thing is just like beginning.

1114
01:29:40,770 --> 01:29:42,010
The whole thing is like a huge fraud.

1115
01:29:42,050 --> 01:29:44,370
So no one is actually using the Lightning Network.

1116
01:29:44,570 --> 01:29:59,250
The people who do, they realize that you need CTV, but then they have to go back
into a room full of people who they know that the plan is to just just keep quiet
about sweep the problems under the rug and say Lightning will fix everything.

1117
01:29:59,290 --> 01:30:02,610
And then the same thing, you have Michael Saylor saying, oh, this will all be on
Lightning.

1118
01:30:02,610 --> 01:30:06,050
And these other L2, Layer 2 and Layer 3 protocols just make up something.

1119
01:30:06,490 --> 01:30:10,170
The whole thing is a self-reinforcing illusion and lie, unfortunately.

1120
01:30:10,210 --> 01:30:17,050
So unfortunately, the termites have spread very far and they have been eating the
whole time.

1121
01:30:17,250 --> 01:30:23,490
So it's hard to say, it's hard to know exactly what to make of it, but I'm glad you
like the article.

1122
01:30:23,530 --> 01:30:28,050
And then remember, I put that in July and I was just kind of like, I kind of knew I
had like one or two tweets.

1123
01:30:28,050 --> 01:30:31,730
Have you added more stuff to it since July?

1124
01:30:32,170 --> 01:30:35,570
I think I only added like a few smaller ones.

1125
01:30:35,570 --> 01:30:38,690
I don't know. I think I can look and maybe anyone can look.

1126
01:30:38,690 --> 01:30:41,730
I think it might be publicly hosted on GitHub Pages or something.

1127
01:30:41,730 --> 01:30:52,530
Anyone can probably look at what I, but I mostly, if I have, I've only added like
two or three, maybe like three or four, or maybe I clarified the conclusion or
something.

1128
01:30:53,370 --> 01:30:56,690
Sometimes like I added, I think, I don't know if I went back and added like the
lightning debate.

1129
01:30:56,810 --> 01:31:02,730
Let's maybe add that to the, or if I think of like another point, oh, I should have
put this point, maybe put like another point.

1130
01:31:03,490 --> 01:31:13,690
Something else which is underrated about the way in which you structured this is
that you put a lot of URLs, like sources to back up your claims.

1131
01:31:14,290 --> 01:31:19,170
So it's not just you saying what you think, you're actually presenting sources to
everything.

1132
01:31:19,850 --> 01:31:37,010
Yeah, one of those bullet points can have more thought behind it than like, you
know, everything that, you know, whoever, take your pick, anything that, you know,
Bitcoin University guy said in his entire life or about Bitcoin anyway.

1133
01:31:37,010 --> 01:31:44,210
So some of those, yeah, some of the, are like just devastating links or even just
links to like images or something.

1134
01:31:44,210 --> 01:31:50,170
So, but yeah, it is, it's hard to know what to make of it all.

1135
01:31:50,290 --> 01:32:06,090
And, but I think what's interesting about it is that the process can go in reverse
also, like people will, when rationality returns, everyone will want to purge all
the junk at the same time.

1136
01:32:06,170 --> 01:32:07,970
So they'll just say, we don't want any of this.

1137
01:32:08,970 --> 01:32:15,970
These are the people who failed us in the past and we don't want to hear from them
and we don't want any of this and there'll be like a truth and reconciliation.

1138
01:32:15,970 --> 01:32:16,970
No, I don't think so.

1139
01:32:16,970 --> 01:32:17,970
I don't think so.

1140
01:32:17,970 --> 01:32:26,970
Like these guys were wrong so many times, like you're going to have Jimmy Song
rebranding, you're going to have Saifedean rebranding, they'll just adapt to the new
thing.

1141
01:32:26,970 --> 01:32:28,970
They'll say, yeah, I always taught this.

1142
01:32:28,970 --> 01:32:33,970
It's just that I did not figure it out sooner or something like this.

1143
01:32:34,970 --> 01:32:37,970
Like I had my doubts, but yeah, this is correct.

1144
01:32:37,970 --> 01:32:39,970
This is the way we should go.

1145
01:32:39,970 --> 01:32:41,970
Everything is bullish for Bitcoin.

1146
01:32:41,970 --> 01:32:42,970
We're winning.

1147
01:32:42,970 --> 01:32:44,970
I do think it's too much.

1148
01:32:44,970 --> 01:32:46,970
There's too much cognitive dissonance.

1149
01:32:46,970 --> 01:32:55,970
So people will have to say, oh yeah, I always hated like, even though it's the
biggest, because it is the biggest sacred cow, everyone will be saying, oh, I always
hated it.

1150
01:32:55,970 --> 01:33:01,970
It'll be like, you know, it'd be like a COVID lockdowns or I don't know.

1151
01:33:01,970 --> 01:33:08,970
There'll be lots of stuff where people will just – it's such a big idea to face that
they won't be able to do it.

1152
01:33:08,970 --> 01:33:12,970
Because anyone who could do it would have already figured it out when Fiat Jaff
figured it out.

1153
01:33:12,970 --> 01:33:16,970
Although, again, the people with integrity are in short supply.

1154
01:33:16,970 --> 01:33:22,970
Yeah, but Fiat Jaff actually tried to build something, which is very different from
someone like Jimmy Song.

1155
01:33:22,970 --> 01:33:25,970
Like what did he ever build?

1156
01:33:25,970 --> 01:33:26,970
Yeah.

1157
01:33:26,970 --> 01:33:28,970
The builders know because you have to get your hands dirty.

1158
01:33:28,970 --> 01:33:32,970
The builders know about something in a way that is unparalleled.

1159
01:33:32,970 --> 01:33:36,970
You actually need every single step of it to work.

1160
01:33:36,970 --> 01:33:42,970
You need to know, oh, okay, like you can't just do – this is what a lot of people
do.

1161
01:33:42,970 --> 01:33:50,970
Like Peter Todd will do this where he'll like half understand an idea and he'll like
take out a little napkin and he'll write down how he thinks it works.

1162
01:33:50,970 --> 01:33:53,970
And then he'll say, oh, but step seven is the problem.

1163
01:33:53,970 --> 01:34:03,970
But if you actually like build the software, you need to actually have the – which
is ironic because, of course, Peter does build some things but not that many.

1164
01:34:03,970 --> 01:34:05,970
But yeah, some of these people build nothing at all.

1165
01:34:05,970 --> 01:34:20,970
Jimmy is a very interesting guy where he – like I can't understand why he – like he
seemed to understand the difference between the hard and soft fork like many years
ago.

1166
01:34:20,970 --> 01:34:21,970
And now he's like forgotten it.

1167
01:34:21,970 --> 01:34:23,970
He's like gone the other way.

1168
01:34:23,970 --> 01:34:27,970
Or I don't know if it's like an act or if it's maybe he never understood it.

1169
01:34:27,970 --> 01:34:29,970
But he was very –

1170
01:34:29,970 --> 01:34:33,970
Because I've heard he was so different before he put that on.

1171
01:34:33,970 --> 01:34:36,970
I don't understand it.

1172
01:34:36,970 --> 01:34:47,970
But yeah, I think – and then you kind of – you have to wonder like what was the –
how much did he really – did he maybe not understand it the whole time?

1173
01:34:47,970 --> 01:34:48,970
I don't know.

1174
01:34:48,970 --> 01:34:55,970
But – and then like the temptation to just oversimplify.

1175
01:34:55,970 --> 01:34:58,970
Jimmy is like, oh, what is it?

1176
01:34:58,970 --> 01:35:00,970
Like fiat ruins everything or like god?

1177
01:35:00,970 --> 01:35:03,970
Bitcoin was sent by god to save us all.

1178
01:35:03,970 --> 01:35:04,970
It's a book.

1179
01:35:04,970 --> 01:35:05,970
You can buy that.

1180
01:35:05,970 --> 01:35:12,970
And I have to say Jimmy signed a copy of that book for my friend who is a devout
Christian.

1181
01:35:12,970 --> 01:35:14,970
And Jimmy is a super nice guy.

1182
01:35:15,970 --> 01:35:17,970
But I mean like I don't know.

1183
01:35:17,970 --> 01:35:25,970
Like we have to just attach every good thing to Bitcoin and then we have every evil
thing to fiat.

1184
01:35:25,970 --> 01:35:30,970
I remember like when he did the debate with Roger Vier on the cruise.

1185
01:35:30,970 --> 01:35:35,970
But his argument was like Bitcoin cash is fiat.

1186
01:35:35,970 --> 01:35:38,970
Actually, Tony Vace was supposed to debate.

1187
01:35:38,970 --> 01:35:39,970
No, no, no.

1188
01:35:39,970 --> 01:35:40,970
Jimmy Song was supposed to debate.

1189
01:35:40,970 --> 01:35:45,970
And then he was like, no, I want my own microphone because Roger is talking more
than me.

1190
01:35:45,970 --> 01:35:47,970
And then he rage-quit and Tony Vace –

1191
01:35:47,970 --> 01:35:49,970
Then he came back though.

1192
01:35:49,970 --> 01:35:51,970
He left the stage and then he came back.

1193
01:35:51,970 --> 01:35:52,970
I don't know.

1194
01:35:52,970 --> 01:35:53,970
That's mean to bring up.

1195
01:35:53,970 --> 01:35:56,970
But he was just saying like, oh, it's like it's Keynesian.

1196
01:35:58,970 --> 01:36:01,970
Bitcoin cash is a Keynesian and it's like, okay.

1197
01:36:04,970 --> 01:36:07,970
I mean like I wasn't a supporter of Bitcoin cash.

1198
01:36:07,970 --> 01:36:09,970
I was not.

1199
01:36:09,970 --> 01:36:11,970
But it's not like that's not what that means.

1200
01:36:11,970 --> 01:36:13,970
Like this is just like it's like a hypnosis.

1201
01:36:13,970 --> 01:36:14,970
It's just like a word.

1202
01:36:14,970 --> 01:36:18,970
So it's like, oh, Vlad, you want to be a good friend, right?

1203
01:36:18,970 --> 01:36:20,970
I know you're a good person and a good friend.

1204
01:36:20,970 --> 01:36:21,970
Being a friend is good.

1205
01:36:21,970 --> 01:36:22,970
So you want to help me.

1206
01:36:22,970 --> 01:36:24,970
And the way for you to help me is to be nice to me.

1207
01:36:24,970 --> 01:36:28,970
And the way for you to be nice to me is to you don't give me $20.

1208
01:36:28,970 --> 01:36:30,970
You know, it's like a hypnosis.

1209
01:36:30,970 --> 01:36:32,970
It's just like a word association hypnosis.

1210
01:36:32,970 --> 01:36:36,970
And you think like these people like their brains like work at all.

1211
01:36:36,970 --> 01:36:39,970
Like I don't know what to say sometimes.

1212
01:36:40,970 --> 01:36:49,970
Yeah, I'm going to do exactly what you said that I should do like an hour ago and go
through all the derangements so that people get a perspective of what's happening.

1213
01:36:50,970 --> 01:36:51,970
And this is the list.

1214
01:36:51,970 --> 01:36:52,970
This is the list.

1215
01:36:52,970 --> 01:36:58,970
So large derangements, the lightning network, which we covered in the first part of
our conversation.

1216
01:36:59,970 --> 01:37:02,970
The second one is the non-mined L2s.

1217
01:37:02,970 --> 01:37:06,970
And we got to talk about this because today Citraya launched on the Bitcoin mainnet.

1218
01:37:07,970 --> 01:37:10,970
And I'm pretty sure that you have opinions about that.

1219
01:37:10,970 --> 01:37:11,970
But let me finish the list first.

1220
01:37:12,970 --> 01:37:14,970
Let me remember to come back to this one.

1221
01:37:15,970 --> 01:37:21,970
The third one is the final rotation where you go big or you go home.

1222
01:37:22,970 --> 01:37:24,970
This is also an interesting perspective.

1223
01:37:24,970 --> 01:37:28,970
The fourth one is finished product versus hard work needed.

1224
01:37:29,970 --> 01:37:30,970
This is a narrative of Bitcoin.

1225
01:37:30,970 --> 01:37:36,970
Like is it actually have we already won or do we actually have a lot of work to do?

1226
01:37:37,970 --> 01:37:42,970
The fifth one on which we spent a lot of time is paralyzed development.

1227
01:37:43,970 --> 01:37:47,970
The sixth one, which is very important, is the neglect of LibBitcoin.

1228
01:37:48,970 --> 01:37:50,970
The seventh one is brain drain.

1229
01:37:51,970 --> 01:37:53,970
And I sort of hinted at it.

1230
01:37:54,970 --> 01:37:56,970
There's this quote by Robin Linus.

1231
01:37:57,970 --> 01:38:01,970
There's the purity tests, which once again are part of the culture.

1232
01:38:02,970 --> 01:38:09,970
And then you have the medium derangements, which are the MEV superstitions, the
security budget, the stratum V2,

1233
01:38:10,970 --> 01:38:20,970
rise of federations with quotation marks for federations, unilateral exit, BTC pay
server replacing BitPay.

1234
01:38:21,970 --> 01:38:22,970
The SegWit discount.

1235
01:38:22,970 --> 01:38:23,970
This is a very big one.

1236
01:38:23,970 --> 01:38:28,970
I was surprised because you brought a lot of receipts about what people have been
saying over the years.

1237
01:38:29,970 --> 01:38:31,970
And I was not even aware that they believed this.

1238
01:38:32,970 --> 01:38:34,970
The stock to flow.

1239
01:38:35,970 --> 01:38:38,970
Stupid idea, which some people still believe in.

1240
01:38:39,970 --> 01:38:43,970
There are websites that actually track it and they're like, wait, it was actually
right all along.

1241
01:38:44,970 --> 01:38:46,970
But we just change it around to something else.

1242
01:38:47,970 --> 01:38:48,970
It was right the whole time.

1243
01:38:49,970 --> 01:38:52,970
The ninth one is the 2025 upper turn BS.

1244
01:38:53,970 --> 01:38:55,970
We sort of covered this already.

1245
01:38:56,970 --> 01:38:59,970
The Bitcoin treasury companies, I think it was the second topic that we covered.

1246
01:39:00,970 --> 01:39:03,970
11 is sailors were on innovation.

1247
01:39:04,970 --> 01:39:05,970
We talked about this too.

1248
01:39:06,970 --> 01:39:11,970
The 12th one, which I found interesting, and you brought a lot of receipts here, is
the useless taproot.

1249
01:39:12,970 --> 01:39:13,970
Which you're right.

1250
01:39:14,970 --> 01:39:18,970
It's not the Schnorr upgrade that we were promised for many years.

1251
01:39:18,970 --> 01:39:23,970
The 13th medium derangement is utterly bizarre nonsense said about my own project.

1252
01:39:24,970 --> 01:39:26,970
You have receipts here too.

1253
01:39:27,970 --> 01:39:29,970
The 14th one prediction market neglect.

1254
01:39:30,970 --> 01:39:35,970
Once again, someone from the Ethereum land came along and built this and it
succeeded.

1255
01:39:36,970 --> 01:39:40,970
Yeah, it's something that I had already advocated for in 2012.

1256
01:39:41,970 --> 01:39:42,970
And that's not as good as the stuff that you built.

1257
01:39:43,970 --> 01:39:47,970
I heard Supertestnet saying that he wants to build his own prediction market.

1258
01:39:48,970 --> 01:39:49,970
On lightning or something.

1259
01:39:50,970 --> 01:39:56,970
And then he told me that he spoke to you and you gave him a bunch of math that you
did 10 years ago or something.

1260
01:39:57,970 --> 01:39:59,970
And he was still trying to wrap his head around it.

1261
01:40:00,970 --> 01:40:02,970
And he was like, man, this guy really knows his stuff.

1262
01:40:03,136 --> 01:40:30,136
Yeah, I was saying what you did on Bitcoin in 2013, but now we have to watch
Polymarket and even other stuff like whatever, like Chainlink, these are not as
great examples, but the fact that they are culturally so big and there was 15 years
ago, so it's kind of like, why, like how many other ideas are people pushing for
that just won't come to Bitcoin, even though we have a 15 year lead?

1263
01:40:31,136 --> 01:40:32,136
And we're just going to blow it.

1264
01:40:33,136 --> 01:40:41,136
Yeah. And then you have the smaller derangements, which are the ASIC boost blocked
SegWit activation, the cringy Ethereum bashing.

1265
01:40:41,136 --> 01:40:50,136
This one is actually, I would say, much more major than you describe it, because for
many years, people have been saying Ethereum is going to fail.

1266
01:40:50,136 --> 01:41:03,136
It's like trash or whatever. It's the worst piece of code I've ever seen. It's an
affinity scam. Vitalik is going to leave the project. You have this live stream for
Bitcoin Uncensored going on on the LayerTwo Labs page.

1267
01:41:03,136 --> 01:41:14,136
And DeRoz and Johnset were also guilty of saying that Vitalik is going to exit scam.
He's going to dump his coins and leave and do something else and whatever. That
never happened.

1268
01:41:14,136 --> 01:41:23,136
Proof of stake actually happened. It was a nothing burger. A lot of the FUD that was
spread about the project turned out to not be true. It was not declared a security
by the SEC.

1269
01:41:24,136 --> 01:41:37,136
You are 100% correct. But I have to say, this is kind of like, okay, let's say that
someone's rolling a dice and me and Johnset and everyone, we said it'll probably be
one through five.

1270
01:41:37,136 --> 01:41:48,136
And someone said, no, it's going to be a six. But before the dice lands, we are
right. But then it landed on six. And we were like, so I would say all the evidence
pointed to all those things would happen.

1271
01:41:49,136 --> 01:42:01,136
And also, there were innumerable projects, you know, NXT, whatever, you know, got
them all. Yeah, BitShares. My brain was deleting them all to preserve my own sanity.

1272
01:42:01,136 --> 01:42:14,136
AngelShares, ProtoShares, it's nothing. Yeah, exactly. There's all these projects
for which all those things exactly happen. Like in that order. And Johnset and I and
everyone, we were all correct about that.

1273
01:42:14,136 --> 01:42:28,136
So all the evidence pointed to, I think, I think that was very fair. And the other
thing to say is Ethereum was a much, much worse project in 2015, when all these
memes were crafted, these ideas about how it sucks.

1274
01:42:28,136 --> 01:42:41,136
And of course, they didn't do. They said, I've told my story many times, I think
I've told it to you, about people were so certain about proof of stake. Oh, and
there was always three months away. And it was like, oh, they were just so certain
that they would get it.

1275
01:42:41,136 --> 01:43:01,136
And then year after year went by, and they never had it. But now they finally do
have it. So I tip my hat to them for surviving the gauntlet of, you know, and they
made it this far. And a lot of the stuff they have fixed and improved enormously.

1276
01:43:01,136 --> 01:43:20,136
But yeah, it's really in 2015, there was every reason to believe it was like a total
scam. And 99% of the projects were scams, and people just Aurora coin, and we just
never hear about them. And then if there was one that worked, everyone would have
been like, ah.

1277
01:43:20,136 --> 01:43:49,136
But John said Aurora coin wouldn't succeed. But he didn't understand network effects
and how giving coins to the population of Iceland was a good idea. So I just wanted
to pause and say, but it has now, why do I put it as a derangement is because people
are still repeating the stuff that like we said, in 2015, they're still repeating
it, even though it applies, you know, certainly much less than 50% of as much as it
doesn't really apply.

1278
01:43:49,136 --> 01:44:11,136
It should not, they should not be repeating a lot of these things. But people do,
they do the cringe bashing, and they say like, oh, it's not ultrasound money. I have
that example, I think, where they said ultrasound money, the people bashing Ethereum
think that they just took our phrase, but they're actually referring to the fact
that their protocol destroys coins over time.

1279
01:44:11,136 --> 01:44:37,136
Whereas ours is still adding coins until the year 21, whatever. And we're still
adding to get to that we're going from 19 million to 20 million to 21 million. So
actually, they have, they have a small point. And but instead, everyone's just like,
oh, can you believe these people think that they have sound money? And then they
say, well, that's okay. What we meant by sound money is that there's no Vitalik, or
what we meant by sound money is that there's, there's no software development.

1280
01:44:38,136 --> 01:45:00,136
And then of course, crazy, Michael Saylor was saying the reason why Bitcoin will
defeat Ethereum is, and then it's like the stupidest reason in the universe, and it
didn't even happen. But his reason was like, Ethereum will be deemed a security,
like, again, this is like Bitcoin one on one, no one cares what who deems what
something else being deemed is nothing.

1281
01:45:01,136 --> 01:45:19,136
But then he was saying, Bitcoin will never be deemed a security and Ethereum will
and that will mean that and then Ethereum was ultimately deemed to be in the same
category as Bitcoin. So it didn't even happen. And the whole thing is just like your
eyes just roll right out of your head. You can't believe like, where do we find
these people?

1282
01:45:19,136 --> 01:45:20,136
And then even Solana.

1283
01:45:50,136 --> 01:45:55,136
Everyone's just wrong about everything. All the time. Anyway, I wanted to just take
a break there and elaborate on Ethereum.

1284
01:45:56,136 --> 01:46:12,136
Oh, yeah. And I also want to add the fact that it might be possible that the winner
of the block size wars was Ethereum. A lot of people wanted to build stuff on
Bitcoin, just migrated, they did not wait for the big block size version of Bitcoin
or something.

1285
01:46:13,136 --> 01:46:21,136
I think both sides lost. That's what I would say, really. The large blockers and
small blockers both lost the block size war. We were better off before.

1286
01:46:22,136 --> 01:46:23,136
We were.

1287
01:46:23,136 --> 01:46:36,136
But that's not an opinion. If you look at where Ethereum was before 2017 and where
it actually ended up by the end of 2017, it became sort of like the default number
two.

1288
01:46:36,136 --> 01:46:56,136
And then it had its own class of, quote unquote, Ethereum killers like NEO and
what's the big one by then? Larimer, EOS and all the others that we don't talk about
anymore. But it sort of became a market trend to try to build a better Ethereum and
flip Ethereum, which never happened.

1289
01:46:57,136 --> 01:47:02,136
And it's sort of I used to hate Ethereum, but now I sort of respect it. I'm like,
you know, these guys.

1290
01:47:03,136 --> 01:47:16,136
It is a kind of opposition party. It's the only competition that there is. So the
competition keeps people a little honest. And so that is good.

1291
01:47:17,136 --> 01:47:27,136
The whole time what we wanted was competition and sidechains, which were, again,
theorized in 2014. They would have solved this problem. But Blockstream never
delivered the sidechains.

1292
01:47:28,136 --> 01:47:43,136
And now we can't. We don't seem to. We don't yet have enough of a political
movement, I think, for that. And even the miners, they are very apathetic to all.

1293
01:47:44,136 --> 01:47:55,136
Not just BIP300, but they just like they are not. They do not want to take
responsibility for having an opinion and they would prefer to have no opinion.

1294
01:47:56,136 --> 01:48:08,136
And they just you can see for yourself like who where's the representation of like
51 percent hash rate like on at like up next or something or like or anywhere.

1295
01:48:10,136 --> 01:48:16,136
Like what is their opinion even? No one even knows. They don't even give an opinion.
They can't even be bothered to show up to some extent.

1296
01:48:16,136 --> 01:48:26,136
I mean, I know that they go, but what you know, they are not invited on stage to,
like, give their opinion, which they should be.

1297
01:48:26,136 --> 01:48:34,136
They should we should be like, OK, there should be a thing where representation from
Foundry or whatever can go on stage and say, well.

1298
01:48:35,136 --> 01:48:43,136
These are the soft works we like, or they should just be saying, well, we don't we
don't want to do any soft works because we don't think it's a priority.

1299
01:48:43,136 --> 01:48:55,136
But instead, just no one has any idea like what what is going on. The whole thing
has become a little too decentralized in the sense of like nothing can get done.

1300
01:48:55,136 --> 01:49:03,136
So the usage of the decentralization is to protect our rights from interference by a
third party.

1301
01:49:03,136 --> 01:49:10,136
But in this case, we have a kind of bureaucracy and a kind of.

1302
01:49:11,136 --> 01:49:19,136
Howard is and a just overall disinterest and neglect, so I don't.

1303
01:49:21,136 --> 01:49:29,136
That would be an important thing I've argued for this in the past up next or at the
Las Vegas conference, there should be some kind of like.

1304
01:49:30,136 --> 01:49:31,136
Minor.

1305
01:49:33,136 --> 01:49:37,136
My 51 percent hash rate explains their point of view type of a thing.

1306
01:49:38,136 --> 01:49:41,136
Now, of course, there's no single person, but you would like, you know what I mean?
You would invite.

1307
01:49:42,136 --> 01:49:46,136
The head of research from Foundry or whoever it is, I don't know.

1308
01:49:46,136 --> 01:49:49,136
You would invite like each of the pools all have someone they could send.

1309
01:49:50,136 --> 01:49:56,136
And they could send and then they would be there in this little room, you know, on
stage and then people could say, oh, so what do you think?

1310
01:49:57,136 --> 01:50:00,136
And then, you know, what would they say now is they would say, well, we've never
heard of any of these.

1311
01:50:00,136 --> 01:50:01,136
We have no idea what's going on.

1312
01:50:02,136 --> 01:50:03,136
Right.

1313
01:50:03,136 --> 01:50:13,136
But then the question is, that's also a consequence of scaling the mining industry
where you've got a bunch of suits who know nothing about mining, but know a lot more
about electricity and logistics.

1314
01:50:13,136 --> 01:50:15,136
And I agree about that.

1315
01:50:15,136 --> 01:50:20,136
But I also think when the scale is bigger now, it's easier to just employ to spend
two hundred thousand dollars a year.

1316
01:50:20,136 --> 01:50:22,136
You have someone full time who's like you're.

1317
01:50:24,136 --> 01:50:26,136
You're whatever guy, you know, you're you're.

1318
01:50:28,136 --> 01:50:30,136
Technical guy, you're a researcher.

1319
01:50:31,136 --> 01:50:43,136
And this would be like a job, like having like a chief legal officer or like a chief
marketing officer or like a chief financial officer, you'd have like your chief
whatever, like Bitcoin growth officer or something like that.

1320
01:50:43,136 --> 01:50:54,136
And you would say, OK, which of these soft works is either going to raise the price
market price of Bitcoin by adding new features that people want or increase
transaction fee revenues to miners?

1321
01:50:56,136 --> 01:50:59,136
And they would have people write reports on that.

1322
01:51:00,136 --> 01:51:06,136
Instead, no one wants to, because everyone secretly believes that or they're afraid
to look.

1323
01:51:06,136 --> 01:51:12,136
They're afraid of what they would find because they're afraid if they look, they're
going to find that whatever lightning sucks or whatever.

1324
01:51:12,136 --> 01:51:16,136
And that, you know, so then they just don't want to talk about it.

1325
01:51:16,136 --> 01:51:25,136
I also want to mention that in 2015, I think Slush Pool was the first mining pool to
support Bitcoin XT and they got DDOS attacked.

1326
01:51:26,136 --> 01:51:32,136
Yeah, I think, well, that was because miners at that time, but yeah, miners at the
time were large blockers.

1327
01:51:33,136 --> 01:51:36,136
And like for a long while after and maybe they still are, as far as anyone knows.

1328
01:51:36,136 --> 01:51:42,136
Now, they're kind of just like it's almost even worse because now they just have no
opinion on anything, even their own bottom line.

1329
01:51:42,136 --> 01:51:44,136
It seems to me as strange as that sounds.

1330
01:51:45,136 --> 01:51:51,136
I think part of it is that the mining turnover is very high.

1331
01:51:53,136 --> 01:51:59,136
You know what I mean? Like if let's say everyone just bought the ASICs wear out over
time.

1332
01:51:59,136 --> 01:52:04,136
So if instead you bought one ASIC, let's say there's only a million ASICs in the
world.

1333
01:52:04,136 --> 01:52:06,136
And if you have one, you have one millionth.

1334
01:52:07,136 --> 01:52:18,136
Well, then everyone would care a lot about like increasing transaction fees,
increasing L1, increasing like the exchange rate of Bitcoin.

1335
01:52:18,136 --> 01:52:20,136
Because now you have this little thing that's printing 1%.

1336
01:52:20,136 --> 01:52:24,136
But they have to spend so much money replacing it and finding the cheap power.

1337
01:52:24,136 --> 01:52:25,136
So maybe they're distracted.

1338
01:52:25,136 --> 01:52:27,136
They don't care as much about growth.

1339
01:52:29,136 --> 01:52:34,136
Of course, the block subsidy is still pretty high relative to the transaction fees.

1340
01:52:35,136 --> 01:52:39,136
So maybe it will fix itself in a few years.

1341
01:52:39,136 --> 01:52:50,136
Although, of course, it's always smarter to intelligently foresee what will happen
versus scramble later on in an emergency situation.

1342
01:52:52,136 --> 01:52:54,136
That is a very foolish way to behave.

1343
01:52:55,136 --> 01:53:09,136
But maybe it will be improved or fixed later when eventually the fees are high, a
higher percentage than the block reward has halved many times.

1344
01:53:09,136 --> 01:53:13,136
Miners will say, well, listen, if we don't have – what are you doing?

1345
01:53:13,136 --> 01:53:17,136
It will go up the chain of command, not the blockchain.

1346
01:53:18,136 --> 01:53:31,136
But it will go up the chain and it will say – whoever will call the end user, the
end miner will call Foundry USA and they'll say, what are you doing to get us more
transaction fees?

1347
01:53:31,136 --> 01:53:36,136
And Foundry USA will call whoever like, I don't know, Bitmain or I don't know,
whoever.

1348
01:53:36,136 --> 01:53:39,136
They'll have like maybe an organization for this or something.

1349
01:53:39,136 --> 01:53:44,136
I just would like there to be something based on knowledge.

1350
01:53:45,136 --> 01:53:50,136
So right now, there is no such thing.

1351
01:53:50,136 --> 01:53:53,136
There is just not having an opinion and everyone ignoring.

1352
01:53:53,136 --> 01:53:56,136
Everyone thinks, well, that's too controversial, so it won't work.

1353
01:53:58,136 --> 01:54:07,136
And the self-fulfilling prophecy of neglect, and this is – again, all these are
things that will – they will kill the project eventually.

1354
01:54:07,136 --> 01:54:28,136
The fact – the soft fork is so harmless and so useful that the very fact that for
whatever reason we can't do it, that proves that the community is sort of doomed to
some extent because it's like they're not going to go for that.

1355
01:54:28,136 --> 01:54:31,136
And it's not even that hard to understand.

1356
01:54:31,136 --> 01:54:35,136
I mean it's kind of advanced, but it's not.

1357
01:54:35,136 --> 01:54:37,136
We were doing the soft forks in 2012.

1358
01:54:37,136 --> 01:54:46,136
We invented them for this purpose, the safe upgrade that not everyone has to take at
the same time.

1359
01:54:47,136 --> 01:54:48,136
So –

1360
01:54:48,136 --> 01:54:57,136
I think it's like the Luke Dashjr. like definition of the soft fork has sort of
ruined the outcomes.

1361
01:54:57,136 --> 01:55:02,136
Like when he said that soft forks are basically hard forks that you activate slowly
over time.

1362
01:55:02,136 --> 01:55:04,136
Yeah, he is wrong about that.

1363
01:55:04,136 --> 01:55:06,136
But he has a very different conception of what it is.

1364
01:55:06,136 --> 01:55:18,136
But I don't think anyone really shares his view, and hopefully one of the good
things about the collapse of his weird narrative – I think that people have realized
that he is kind of crazy.

1365
01:55:18,136 --> 01:55:31,136
And there was just – he spent all this time telling everyone that like they would –
Opreturn would kill Bitcoin.

1366
01:55:31,136 --> 01:55:36,136
The Opreturn expanding it would – and it would make Bitcoin just another shitcoin.

1367
01:55:36,136 --> 01:55:39,136
Now they're even more convinced.

1368
01:55:39,136 --> 01:55:40,136
They're like, oh, look at this.

1369
01:55:40,136 --> 01:55:44,136
Since Bitcoin Core v30 launched, the price went down.

1370
01:55:45,136 --> 01:55:48,136
And there's this correlation of events that happened.

1371
01:55:48,136 --> 01:55:53,136
And they're like, oh, there's this bug that was in the code and could delete wallet
files.

1372
01:55:53,136 --> 01:55:55,136
Of course, it's killing Bitcoin.

1373
01:55:55,136 --> 01:55:56,136
Yeah.

1374
01:55:56,136 --> 01:55:58,136
Well, that's the problem.

1375
01:55:58,136 --> 01:56:04,136
Core is not – if Core had their act together, they would not be open to this kind of
counterattack.

1376
01:56:04,136 --> 01:56:07,136
But it's because Core is also terrible.

1377
01:56:07,136 --> 01:56:09,136
So Luke and Core are both terrible.

1378
01:56:09,136 --> 01:56:11,136
No offense to them.

1379
01:56:11,136 --> 01:56:13,136
I'm calling them terrible like to their face.

1380
01:56:13,136 --> 01:56:26,136
But Luke is wrong about the Opreturn, and the sensationalist nonsense argument is
itself deranging and absurd.

1381
01:56:26,136 --> 01:56:31,136
But Core, like they also don't have their act together.

1382
01:56:31,136 --> 01:56:37,136
Like they should not govern based on controversy.

1383
01:56:37,136 --> 01:56:46,136
That just opens the door to being manipulated by fake controversy, which is exactly
what has happened numerous times, as you pointed out, as we discussed.

1384
01:56:46,136 --> 01:56:49,136
And we can discuss more.

1385
01:56:49,136 --> 01:56:51,136
There are numerous examples of that that we could talk about.

1386
01:56:51,136 --> 01:56:53,136
So the cows come home.

1387
01:56:53,136 --> 01:57:04,136
But like Core does not have a kind of accountability for making mistakes.

1388
01:57:04,136 --> 01:57:18,136
So if there were people who were getting kicked out of the organization constantly
because either they made mistakes or they acted too slowly and they dragged their
feet.

1389
01:57:18,136 --> 01:57:22,136
And so you only have the best.

1390
01:57:22,136 --> 01:57:26,136
See, a meritocracy means like half the people are being fired like every cycle.

1391
01:57:26,136 --> 01:57:31,136
So a meritocracy means best rise to the top and the worst are being kicked out.

1392
01:57:31,136 --> 01:57:36,136
If your organization isn't firing people – because everyone would always say –
people would say, oh, Core is a meritocracy.

1393
01:57:36,136 --> 01:57:38,136
You hear this over and over and over again.

1394
01:57:38,136 --> 01:57:40,136
This is itself a derangement.

1395
01:57:40,136 --> 01:57:43,136
This has never been true at all.

1396
01:57:43,136 --> 01:57:51,136
But just the fact that people say it speaks to just how stupid they are because, of
course, if it's really a meritocracy –

1397
01:57:51,136 --> 01:57:56,136
I used to believe it's like the ivory tower of the smartest people who know exactly
what's happening.

1398
01:57:56,136 --> 01:57:58,136
Yeah.

1399
01:57:59,136 --> 01:58:01,136
And they got crushed by the market.

1400
01:58:01,136 --> 01:58:10,136
And it's beautiful that we have markets and altcoins, by the way, because we can see
where there's going to be this developer who says, wait a second, I want to build
this on Bitcoin.

1401
01:58:10,136 --> 01:58:12,136
It doesn't work.

1402
01:58:12,136 --> 01:58:18,136
So if you don't let me build this because of the upper turn limit or something else,
then I'm going to launch an altcoin.

1403
01:58:18,136 --> 01:58:23,136
And then the ivory tower wise men will say, ha ha ha, you're a loser.

1404
01:58:23,136 --> 01:58:26,136
You're just going to end up scamming people and it's going to go to zero.

1405
01:58:26,136 --> 01:58:28,136
Then it doesn't go to zero.

1406
01:58:28,136 --> 01:58:30,136
And the market actually gives us information.

1407
01:58:30,136 --> 01:58:33,136
It shows us, okay, there's something here.

1408
01:58:33,136 --> 01:58:36,136
That's why you also have an Ethereum Drivechain.

1409
01:58:36,136 --> 01:58:37,136
Right.

1410
01:58:37,136 --> 01:58:46,136
But I think the bigger issue is that there's no – what kind of oversight would there
even be on these people?

1411
01:58:46,136 --> 01:58:55,136
How do you know if – what is the criterion on is Gloria Zhao doing a good job or
whatever?

1412
01:58:55,136 --> 01:59:01,136
Again, in the case of a race or speedrun or something, you have people compete.

1413
01:59:01,136 --> 01:59:02,136
One person wins.

1414
01:59:02,136 --> 01:59:03,136
They have the best time.

1415
01:59:03,136 --> 01:59:06,136
So they at least have some qualification for commenting on everyone else.

1416
01:59:06,136 --> 01:59:12,136
They could say, well, I beat that guy because I did this – I took this shortcut and
they didn't.

1417
01:59:12,136 --> 01:59:18,136
Or I beat this guy because I did carb loading or something.

1418
01:59:18,136 --> 01:59:24,136
The first place guy has some authority to comment on why they won versus the other
people.

1419
01:59:24,136 --> 01:59:31,136
And, of course, the mere fact that you have one rational participant, that causes
everyone else to become more rational.

1420
01:59:31,136 --> 01:59:42,136
But with this situation, we have a situation where, like, these people just do
nothing.

1421
01:59:42,136 --> 01:59:47,136
The core just does nothing and they refactor and they do tests and they do
formatting.

1422
01:59:48,136 --> 01:59:56,136
And then they basically live off of the prestige of being associated with Bitcoin.

1423
01:59:56,136 --> 01:59:58,136
They're like a Bitcoin affinity scam.

1424
01:59:58,136 --> 02:00:03,136
And they just say, we are the core maintainers even though they don't really do
anything.

1425
02:00:03,136 --> 02:00:09,136
And they put out the core version and just because of the prestige, they're
associated with core.

1426
02:00:09,136 --> 02:00:15,136
And so then they can, like, whatever, get attention from, like, I don't know, the
MIT Media Lab or something.

1427
02:00:15,136 --> 02:00:17,136
Or they can get OpenSats grants.

1428
02:00:17,136 --> 02:00:25,136
So they get some money from this and they are literally like a kind of – they're
kind of like a Ron Swanson bureaucrat.

1429
02:00:25,136 --> 02:00:28,136
They just want to avoid attention.

1430
02:00:28,136 --> 02:00:31,136
They want to avoid criticism.

1431
02:00:31,136 --> 02:00:34,136
And so they just hide under the radar.

1432
02:00:35,136 --> 02:00:44,136
And so they don't – we don't have something where, for example, one core maintainer
says this, another core maintainer says something else.

1433
02:00:44,136 --> 02:00:50,136
There's some kind of external test and then one of them is defeated like in an
election.

1434
02:00:50,136 --> 02:00:53,136
One group is fired and removed.

1435
02:00:53,136 --> 02:00:54,136
They're crying.

1436
02:00:54,136 --> 02:00:56,136
They're really upset.

1437
02:00:56,136 --> 02:00:57,136
They're suffering.

1438
02:00:57,136 --> 02:00:58,136
That's what we need is more suffering.

1439
02:00:58,136 --> 02:01:04,136
That's not really how it works because as long as they get funding, they're going to
keep on contributing.

1440
02:01:04,136 --> 02:01:06,136
Yeah, but this is what I mean.

1441
02:01:06,136 --> 02:01:09,136
There's no way to get fired other than not receiving any more grants.

1442
02:01:09,136 --> 02:01:13,136
But I think that some of these companies found like a hack into this.

1443
02:01:13,136 --> 02:01:19,136
Like they're going to pay a Bitcoin Core developer like $200,000 a year or whatever
they get paid.

1444
02:01:19,136 --> 02:01:21,136
The company also does the affinity scam.

1445
02:01:21,136 --> 02:01:23,136
They say we support Bitcoin development.

1446
02:01:23,136 --> 02:01:24,136
We're good for Bitcoin.

1447
02:01:24,136 --> 02:01:25,136
We equal Bitcoin.

1448
02:01:25,136 --> 02:01:26,136
They have a thing.

1449
02:01:26,136 --> 02:01:35,136
So what they don't say is here are all the things Bitcoin Core is doing wrong that
my company is going to do something about, which is that would be the actual ethical
thing to do.

1450
02:01:35,136 --> 02:01:41,136
But that would require them to know the difference between a good thing and a bad
thing, which many of them don't.

1451
02:01:41,136 --> 02:01:53,136
But yeah, the whole thing unfortunately is – so if Bitcoin Core had their act
together and people are really, really happy with it, Luke would say – that would be
like Luke putting out a tweet.

1452
02:01:53,136 --> 02:02:01,136
Instead of saying like, oh, everything's – Opportunity is going to ruin Bitcoin and
Bitcoin is just going to be like another altcoin.

1453
02:02:01,136 --> 02:02:07,136
This would be like as if Luke put out a tweet saying like Elon Musk is going to ruin
SpaceX or something and it's going to be – ruin the rocket.

1454
02:02:07,136 --> 02:02:09,136
Everyone would just be like, what the hell?

1455
02:02:09,136 --> 02:02:12,136
Like they are – I mean maybe he will.

1456
02:02:12,136 --> 02:02:13,136
Maybe he won't.

1457
02:02:13,136 --> 02:02:15,136
But the point is SpaceX, they do a lot of iterating.

1458
02:02:15,136 --> 02:02:18,136
They have like a business model with Starlink.

1459
02:02:18,136 --> 02:02:30,136
They actually have the rockets that you can see them take off and land and there's a
lot of stakes and there's a lot of people working on very, very specific things and
it is the number one space company.

1460
02:02:30,136 --> 02:02:44,136
So people see for themselves the – with their own two eyes, they see the external
results and people can drive the Tesla and stuff and maybe you just – people
disagree on if it's a good car, if Elon is a good guy.

1461
02:02:44,136 --> 02:02:59,136
But the point is that if Core had its act together, you would just be like, well,
this is just some comment made by Luke.

1462
02:02:59,136 --> 02:03:05,136
But Core is great, so we won't need to do anything.

1463
02:03:05,136 --> 02:03:09,136
Would you like a light break or something?

1464
02:03:09,136 --> 02:03:11,136
Yeah, sorry about that.

1465
02:03:11,136 --> 02:03:13,136
I'm trying to fix it on the go.

1466
02:03:13,136 --> 02:03:20,136
But I think this is a very beautiful transition into LitBitcoin because it's one of
the major derangements that you listed.

1467
02:03:20,136 --> 02:03:21,136
It is.

1468
02:03:21,136 --> 02:03:24,136
It's something that's been around for longer than a decade.

1469
02:03:24,136 --> 02:03:34,136
Amir Takhi actually built LitBitcoin as a response to Gavin Andreessen always
changing things without too much accountability in the early days.

1470
02:03:34,136 --> 02:03:37,136
And then it sort of fell into obscurity for a few years.

1471
02:03:38,136 --> 02:03:39,136
There was development for it.

1472
02:03:39,136 --> 02:03:41,136
It's just that it did not get much attention.

1473
02:03:41,136 --> 02:03:58,136
What's interesting about LitBitcoin – and I have to check if you put the sources for
it here – it was like a major point of contention in the summer of 2013 when that
character John Dillon was active who was supposedly working for intelligence.

1474
02:03:58,136 --> 02:04:03,136
He's very important in the narrative of the big blockers because …

1475
02:04:04,136 --> 02:04:06,136
Yeah, I think a little over-important.

1476
02:04:06,136 --> 02:04:13,136
I don't think – because what the guy says is he says he self-reports as like a kind
of offhand comment.

1477
02:04:13,136 --> 02:04:18,136
When he's talking to Peter Todd, he says, oh, I work for an intelligence agency.

1478
02:04:18,136 --> 02:04:29,136
But the way I read it is he's just kind of saying, haha, how ironic that out of all
the people I've gotten interested in Bitcoin but I happen to coincidentally.

1479
02:04:29,136 --> 02:04:31,136
And wouldn't that look weird?

1480
02:04:32,136 --> 02:04:34,136
He just freely volunteers this information.

1481
02:04:34,136 --> 02:04:36,136
So I don't think it's really that important.

1482
02:04:36,136 --> 02:04:39,136
But plenty of people – plenty of other people do.

1483
02:04:39,136 --> 02:04:42,136
They think it's very, very, very, very important and they think this is actually
proof.

1484
02:04:42,136 --> 02:04:49,136
This is proof of a long-concealed truth that intelligence agencies hired Peter Todd
to sabotage everything.

1485
02:04:49,136 --> 02:04:51,136
And so that's what they think.

1486
02:04:51,136 --> 02:04:53,136
But I'm kind of a little skeptical.

1487
02:04:53,136 --> 02:05:02,136
Basically what John Dillon did in the summer of 2013 was to participate in the
bounty for the CoinJoin wallet, which was launched by Greg Maxwell.

1488
02:05:02,136 --> 02:05:03,467
This is much more suspicious.

1489
02:05:03,467 --> 02:05:09,467
And Teimos and also Peter Willey. They were the three co-signers of the multisig
with the bounty.

1490
02:05:09,467 --> 02:05:18,467
And John Dillon put some Bitcoin in there and said, now that I'm a stakeholder in
this, you should also ask me before you give the bounty.

1491
02:05:18,467 --> 02:05:27,467
And Amir Taki tried to claim the bounty with DarkWallet, which is something – I
think it was the first CoinJoin wallet ever built for Bitcoin.

1492
02:05:27,467 --> 02:05:34,467
Vitalik Buterin actually coded for that one before launching Ethereum. They never
got the bounty for it.

1493
02:05:34,467 --> 02:05:43,467
And John Dillon explained that he did not like the fact that it was using LibBitcoin
instead of Bitcoin Core, which I always found fascinating.

1494
02:05:43,467 --> 02:05:53,467
It's part of – I think if you go to agorism.net, which I think is Amir Taki's
website, it's listed in there, like the whole email link.

1495
02:05:53,467 --> 02:05:59,467
I think it's also on Bitcoin Talk if you dig deeper. I read everything. I posted a
long thread about it.

1496
02:05:59,467 --> 02:06:08,467
And I think this is an often times – how should I put it? It's a fact that doesn't
get the attention that it deserves.

1497
02:06:08,467 --> 02:06:20,467
That this was like the Michael Saylor of his time, just putting some Bitcoin there,
putting some money and saying from now on, if you want to make a change or you want
to do something, you have to ask me.

1498
02:06:20,467 --> 02:06:30,467
Yeah, he unilaterally donated into the fund and then he was like, since this is our
money, and then he didn't like.

1499
02:06:30,467 --> 02:06:38,467
But of course at the time – I mean it's reasonable to be skeptical of LibBitcoin, I
think, because Bitcoin Core is the standard that everyone has used all this time.

1500
02:06:38,467 --> 02:06:44,467
So it is suspicious to switch to something else and certainly LibBitcoin is not
perfect.

1501
02:06:44,467 --> 02:06:52,467
But what it is, is it is much more – I mean it's much better in every way that is
measurable.

1502
02:06:52,467 --> 02:06:57,467
And so it's suspicious that there isn't more of a conversation about it.

1503
02:06:57,467 --> 02:07:04,467
So the neglect of it is very bizarre because if you sync Bitcoin Core, it takes more
than a day.

1504
02:07:04,467 --> 02:07:09,467
But if you sync LibBitcoin, it's like now the theoretical limit is just the
bandwidth.

1505
02:07:09,467 --> 02:07:17,467
You need to just download the blockchain. That is the – he has got it down to like
the 53-minute theoretical minimum or something.

1506
02:07:17,467 --> 02:07:20,467
So we're very close to that.

1507
02:07:20,467 --> 02:07:27,467
And so the question is why is Bitcoin Core so slow?

1508
02:07:27,467 --> 02:07:31,467
And I think the answer is nothing good.

1509
02:07:31,467 --> 02:07:34,467
It's just because it's a bureaucracy.

1510
02:07:34,467 --> 02:07:38,467
It's because it's an anti-meritocracy and it's just a – it's not a meritocracy.

1511
02:07:38,467 --> 02:07:53,467
It is a bureaucracy and they don't want to like make bold changes as far as the
software architecture or not in terms of like the design or the protocol or what it
does.

1512
02:07:53,467 --> 02:08:03,467
Of course, to some extent it is reasonable that people would be – but again,
LibBitcoin is – that's something that does like basically exactly what Bitcoin Core
does.

1513
02:08:03,467 --> 02:08:05,467
It does the exact same thing.

1514
02:08:06,467 --> 02:08:14,467
So you can easily write tests where you just feed both pieces of software the same
thing and see if they get the result back.

1515
02:08:14,467 --> 02:08:16,467
Now, I'm not sure.

1516
02:08:16,467 --> 02:08:23,467
Almost certainly, there are many RPCs and other things that LibBitcoin doesn't
support and probably vice versa.

1517
02:08:23,467 --> 02:08:33,467
But the point is if people were serious, you would think that there would be more
attention on something that is so much – so obviously better when you have on one
hand you have Bitcoin Core.

1518
02:08:33,467 --> 02:08:35,467
You have all this funding.

1519
02:08:35,467 --> 02:08:51,467
You have teams of people working for years 24-7 and yet they're smoked by someone
else like him and like two friends working like part-time over the same time period.

1520
02:08:51,467 --> 02:08:53,467
By him, you mean Eric Voskil.

1521
02:08:53,467 --> 02:08:55,467
Eric Voskil, that's right.

1522
02:08:55,467 --> 02:09:04,467
He's the maintainer currently of LibBitcoin, and he was able to do some amazing
things with synchronizing a full node in less than one hour.

1523
02:09:04,467 --> 02:09:06,467
Right.

1524
02:09:06,467 --> 02:09:11,467
So again, that's kind of like – it's kind of hard to describe.

1525
02:09:11,467 --> 02:09:24,467
It's kind of like we take a six-hour flight from New York to San Francisco, but then
Eric has this experimental craft that he's been working on for years and that him
and his friends use.

1526
02:09:24,467 --> 02:09:27,467
All the supporters of LibBitcoin use it.

1527
02:09:27,467 --> 02:09:30,467
We were talking, he was using it, etc.

1528
02:09:30,467 --> 02:09:36,467
And it can then get you there in 15 minutes.

1529
02:09:36,467 --> 02:09:40,467
It goes from New York to San Francisco in 15 minutes.

1530
02:09:40,467 --> 02:09:42,467
And it just works and it's right there.

1531
02:09:42,467 --> 02:09:51,467
And the question is, well, what are they doing that – is it like a big – is there a
huge flaw?

1532
02:09:51,467 --> 02:09:56,467
Is there a huge lie about it all?

1533
02:09:56,467 --> 02:09:59,467
And you look and it doesn't seem like there is.

1534
02:09:59,467 --> 02:10:01,467
And so you just think like, what is going on?

1535
02:10:01,467 --> 02:10:04,467
But instead, just no one talks about it.

1536
02:10:04,467 --> 02:10:07,467
So I think that's really weird.

1537
02:10:08,467 --> 02:10:16,467
But, yeah, everyone is not talking about it because they think, oh, the guy next to
me is not talking about it and he must have a good reason.

1538
02:10:16,467 --> 02:10:18,467
So it's all just peer pressure.

1539
02:10:18,467 --> 02:10:20,467
It's all just – the whole thing is stupid, honestly.

1540
02:10:20,467 --> 02:10:21,467
So, yeah.

1541
02:10:21,467 --> 02:10:26,467
That's why I put it in the big category because there's just no explaining it.

1542
02:10:26,467 --> 02:10:36,467
Okay, but other than this synchronization, I know that you're someone who spends all
your waking hours testing new stuff and trying to make optimizations for your Tundra
site.

1543
02:10:36,467 --> 02:10:37,467
I don't know about that.

1544
02:10:37,467 --> 02:10:40,467
No, I don't even – I'm very lazy, honestly.

1545
02:10:40,467 --> 02:10:44,467
Okay, don't say that on the live stream.

1546
02:10:44,467 --> 02:10:47,467
But my point is right now, what is special about LitBitcoin?

1547
02:10:47,467 --> 02:10:49,467
I take everything seriously.

1548
02:10:49,467 --> 02:10:52,467
I take results seriously and accountability.

1549
02:10:52,467 --> 02:10:58,467
So what we did for the Tundra thing is I just ran a contest and I said, whoever can
improve, we wrote a stopwatch function.

1550
02:10:59,467 --> 02:11:12,467
It obliterates the test blockchain, generates completely random transactions,
connects these blocks, and then times how long does it take to actually – for the
software to validate the blocks.

1551
02:11:12,467 --> 02:11:21,467
And I just said whoever wins will get cash, and I reran the contest several weeks,
week after week after week after week.

1552
02:11:21,467 --> 02:11:25,467
And that's how we optimized Tundra, and I did that in the summer.

1553
02:11:26,467 --> 02:11:28,467
Now, notice Bitcoin Core doesn't do anything like that.

1554
02:11:28,467 --> 02:11:30,467
There's no competition.

1555
02:11:30,467 --> 02:11:31,467
There's no stakes.

1556
02:11:31,467 --> 02:11:45,467
So they just talk until they're done talking, and they have their bureaucratic slop,
and they just grow fat, sucking on the teat of whatever the fuck these grants –
whoever is giving them this money.

1557
02:11:46,467 --> 02:11:54,467
But yeah, it would be better if they had a contest and there was a loser who was
disappointed and a winner who got some kind of special recognition.

1558
02:11:54,467 --> 02:11:56,467
That's how you get evolution.

1559
02:11:59,467 --> 02:12:04,467
And so I wanted to optimize Tundra, and that's what I did.

1560
02:12:04,467 --> 02:12:16,467
So I did it, and I'm not going to say it wasn't that hard, but it's like, yeah, if
you want to do something and you have money and you have time and you have an
internet connection, you can do it.

1561
02:12:18,467 --> 02:12:22,467
Yeah, but the question is what is so good about LitBitcoin?

1562
02:12:22,467 --> 02:12:23,467
I know.

1563
02:12:23,467 --> 02:12:36,467
Well, I mean we could have Eric Voskal, and he could give us his details about –
like I think he rewrote – like he just rewrote a lot of stuff like from scratch,
which maybe is a terrible idea, but maybe not.

1564
02:12:36,467 --> 02:12:45,467
I think he did – he aggressively parallelized so that a lot of stuff could take
place out of order.

1565
02:12:45,467 --> 02:12:57,467
I think he had a couple insights about like you only need to care – like you can
just – you can do – he had some insights about some stuff can be done out of order.

1566
02:12:57,467 --> 02:13:03,467
Like you would think you have to bring in the first block, check everything in the
first block, update the UTCXO set, then do the second block.

1567
02:13:03,467 --> 02:13:14,467
I think he had some kind of insight that you could just do them all out of order and
have this table, like have this big table of them all and just have them all cancel
each other out at the very end or something.

1568
02:13:14,467 --> 02:13:20,467
And I'm not sure exactly, but he had – I think he just honestly just did some
grinding on it.

1569
02:13:20,467 --> 02:13:32,467
Like what you do when you're a software engineer doing this type of thing, you
usually – you make some kind of test or some kind of chart or some kind of thing and
you say what out of all the things the software is doing, which things are taking
the most time.

1570
02:13:33,467 --> 02:13:37,467
You look at those things and then – so I think he just put in a little bit more
time.

1571
02:13:37,467 --> 02:13:52,467
But here's the question is how can it be that like one guy plus friends, how can
they be beating Bitcoin Core by a factor of more than 24, which is more than one day
versus less than one hour?

1572
02:13:52,467 --> 02:13:54,467
How can that be?

1573
02:13:54,467 --> 02:13:56,467
And I just think that it's bizarre.

1574
02:13:56,467 --> 02:14:04,467
It just – it perfectly fits the pattern of derangement that it's just yet another
thing that everyone kind of takes for granted.

1575
02:14:04,467 --> 02:14:10,467
Oh, Core must be so good, but actually they are much worse than a random volunteer.

1576
02:14:10,467 --> 02:14:15,467
So – but like – but no one can do anything about it and no one will do anything
about it.

1577
02:14:15,467 --> 02:14:16,467
It will probably just get worse.

1578
02:14:16,467 --> 02:14:18,467
So yeah, I don't know.

1579
02:14:19,467 --> 02:14:20,467
But yeah, you should definitely have him on.

1580
02:14:20,467 --> 02:14:27,467
I'm sure he knows in detail exactly what – exactly what he did.

1581
02:14:27,467 --> 02:14:35,467
But there's no – like you could look – you could poke around for evidence that like
– oh, are they just like skipping a bunch of steps or something?

1582
02:14:35,467 --> 02:14:36,467
I think they don't even have AssumeValid.

1583
02:14:36,467 --> 02:14:38,467
I could be wrong about that.

1584
02:14:38,467 --> 02:14:43,467
But I think they don't even – so this thing that Core does to save a bunch of time,
they do all the work.

1585
02:14:43,467 --> 02:14:45,467
They don't even do any Assume.

1586
02:14:46,467 --> 02:14:49,467
They don't do any AssumeValid, and they're still faster.

1587
02:14:49,467 --> 02:14:50,467
I think.

1588
02:14:50,467 --> 02:14:51,467
I think that's the case.

1589
02:14:51,467 --> 02:14:55,467
So someone could double-check that, but it is bizarre.

1590
02:14:55,467 --> 02:14:59,467
And you just think – you just kind of think like what is going on here?

1591
02:14:59,467 --> 02:15:01,467
Such a big mystery.

1592
02:15:01,467 --> 02:15:09,467
But there's also the other question like if it's so much better and it's able to
achieve these results, then why aren't more people using it?

1593
02:15:09,467 --> 02:15:11,467
It's a good – it's a completely fair question.

1594
02:15:11,467 --> 02:15:15,467
And I think that the reason is that you have different categories of users.

1595
02:15:15,467 --> 02:15:22,467
So like obviously someone like Coinbase, they're going to use Bitcoin Core, and they
don't care if it takes a day to sync.

1596
02:15:22,467 --> 02:15:25,467
And they're going to run multiple versions.

1597
02:15:25,467 --> 02:15:29,467
They're going to run multiple instances of the exact same version and even old
versions.

1598
02:15:30,467 --> 02:15:42,467
And they're going to – I assume – I can only assume they have some kind of tripwire
where if any of the versions disagree with each other, it throws this alarm and
people get paged and stuff like that.

1599
02:15:42,467 --> 02:15:44,467
I assume that's how it works.

1600
02:15:44,467 --> 02:15:47,467
I assume they don't just like, oh, let's just use the Bitcoin.

1601
02:15:47,467 --> 02:15:55,467
So I assume they have a sophisticated thing to figure out if people are really
sending them Bitcoin or not because they're a big exchange.

1602
02:15:55,467 --> 02:15:59,467
And then you have lots of people just use – they just use SPV or they don't run a
full node at all or just custodial.

1603
02:15:59,467 --> 02:16:01,467
They don't care.

1604
02:16:01,467 --> 02:16:07,467
So I think these are the reasons, and people do prefer the standard.

1605
02:16:07,467 --> 02:16:16,467
You really want to be on the same exact network as everyone else, so they don't want
– so it is a big risk just to switch.

1606
02:16:18,467 --> 02:16:23,467
So it's kind of like they have – it's a risk to switch, and it's like, well, is it
worth it?

1607
02:16:23,467 --> 02:16:25,467
The answer is probably no.

1608
02:16:25,467 --> 02:16:36,467
But it does speak to something about the way the software is – something about the
design by committee software process is objectively falling behind.

1609
02:16:36,467 --> 02:16:43,467
Yeah, it's an interesting thought exercise.

1610
02:16:43,467 --> 02:17:00,467
Maybe it's also pure marketing and the fact that the average person in Bitcoin has
no idea that this exists, is not aware of the merits, and maybe that they don't
trust one guy and his two friends, which is, I guess, a fair argument.

1611
02:17:01,467 --> 02:17:04,467
But the question is why isn't there more testing of this?

1612
02:17:04,467 --> 02:17:14,467
Why doesn't anyone just put like $100,000 or something to pay people to make it look
nice and just work on it?

1613
02:17:14,467 --> 02:17:24,467
I mean in a way – I hate to flip the question around, but the fact that people
haven't switched from Core to LibBitcoin, in a way that is itself part of the
derangement.

1614
02:17:24,467 --> 02:17:29,467
Because it's like, oh, maybe just no one cares about if something's better or not.

1615
02:17:29,467 --> 02:17:32,467
It's just like it's all just peer pressure.

1616
02:17:32,467 --> 02:17:33,467
It's all just groupthink.

1617
02:17:37,467 --> 02:17:38,467
So yeah, I don't know.

1618
02:17:38,467 --> 02:17:39,467
A lot of these have their own questions.

1619
02:17:39,467 --> 02:17:46,467
Or maybe that we're just LARPing about any developments, and as long as the number
goes up, nobody cares about anything else.

1620
02:17:46,467 --> 02:17:47,467
Exactly, yes.

1621
02:17:48,467 --> 02:17:55,467
But I should explain the – I've got to explain the final rotation because I think
very few people know what I'm talking about.

1622
02:17:55,467 --> 02:18:07,467
But this refers to the idea of people – the rotation is people switching out their –
they have fiat, and they swap it for Bitcoin in their daily lives.

1623
02:18:07,467 --> 02:18:11,467
Now, the last people to do this, they have to be real users.

1624
02:18:11,467 --> 02:18:19,467
They cannot be NGEU, number go up, investors because the number can't go up by the
time they swap out.

1625
02:18:19,467 --> 02:18:22,467
They're the last ones swapping out at the highest price.

1626
02:18:22,467 --> 02:18:26,467
This is a totally straightforward, logical argument.

1627
02:18:26,467 --> 02:18:35,467
The early people can say, oh, I swapped my – all of my cash for Bitcoin because I
knew that one day Bitcoin would be really big.

1628
02:18:35,467 --> 02:18:38,467
And then when it is big, now they have more money.

1629
02:18:38,467 --> 02:18:39,467
They have more purchasing power.

1630
02:18:39,467 --> 02:18:41,467
They can buy mansions.

1631
02:18:41,467 --> 02:18:42,467
They can buy the Citadel.

1632
02:18:42,467 --> 02:18:44,467
They can buy a yacht.

1633
02:18:44,467 --> 02:18:46,467
They can call that yacht the Citadel.

1634
02:18:46,467 --> 02:18:47,467
That would be funny.

1635
02:18:47,467 --> 02:18:54,467
And so – but the last people, the final rotation, they cannot do that.

1636
02:18:54,467 --> 02:18:56,467
They have to be real users.

1637
02:18:56,467 --> 02:19:00,467
Otherwise, the whole thing is a Ponzi scheme, the whole Bitcoin project.

1638
02:19:00,467 --> 02:19:14,467
This is the one event that determines whether or not it was a Ponzi scheme the whole
time that collapses and goes to zero or whether or not it was the next big thing and
it goes to tens of millions of dollars per coin.

1639
02:19:14,467 --> 02:19:17,467
Again, this is an all-important issue.

1640
02:19:17,467 --> 02:19:24,467
The logic is I think quite obvious and yet very few people are talking about it.

1641
02:19:24,467 --> 02:19:29,467
And then you still – you have people such as Saylor who say, oh, it will never be
used by lots of people.

1642
02:19:29,467 --> 02:19:31,467
It will just be digital property.

1643
02:19:31,467 --> 02:19:34,467
It will just be Manhattan real estate or whatever that means.

1644
02:19:34,467 --> 02:19:37,467
I'm still trying to figure out what some of these things mean.

1645
02:19:37,467 --> 02:19:43,467
It makes perfect sense that you just give him your hard-earned Bitcoin in return for
MSTR stock that he can print at any time.

1646
02:19:43,467 --> 02:19:46,467
It makes perfect sense if you just think about it.

1647
02:19:47,467 --> 02:19:55,467
But so like the final rotation is like we have to actually have users.

1648
02:19:55,467 --> 02:20:07,467
This is, again, because it was something that Roger Ver also said or that the large
blockers also sometimes said, this became like, whoa, you can't say that even though
it's true.

1649
02:20:08,467 --> 02:20:18,467
So again, we have a true thing is being walled off just because it was among the set
of things that Roger Ver said at one point.

1650
02:20:18,467 --> 02:20:35,467
He also said the sky is blue, I'm sure, but like – it would be funny to see how far
you could push the envelope on that just like any true thing Roger Ver said if it's
rejected by BTC quitter or something.

1651
02:20:35,467 --> 02:20:41,467
But so this is the question because you can only go up.

1652
02:20:41,467 --> 02:20:43,467
You can only 10X so many times.

1653
02:20:43,467 --> 02:20:47,467
You do a log scale and you have where did Bitcoin start?

1654
02:20:47,467 --> 02:20:50,467
Less than like a penny per coin.

1655
02:20:50,467 --> 02:20:54,467
The final destination is like whatever, like $15, $20 million.

1656
02:20:54,467 --> 02:21:03,467
At that point, Bitcoin has replaced – the pie has gobbled up the whole pie of money
in the world.

1657
02:21:03,467 --> 02:21:05,467
And it is at 100%.

1658
02:21:05,467 --> 02:21:16,467
So it will still go up from there because GDP goes up and the ratio of world's broad
money to GDP value, that also has been going up.

1659
02:21:16,467 --> 02:21:20,467
So it will still go up by like 7% in purchasing power terms.

1660
02:21:20,467 --> 02:21:31,467
But you can't get any more – you won't get any more like – you won't get any benefit
for being early into Bitcoin because it's 100% adoption.

1661
02:21:31,467 --> 02:21:36,467
So the bonus you get for being early is reduced to zero.

1662
02:21:36,467 --> 02:21:37,467
The final people have to be users.

1663
02:21:37,467 --> 02:21:40,467
You have this log scale.

1664
02:21:40,467 --> 02:21:44,467
It goes 10X, 10X, 10X, 10X, 10X, 10X.

1665
02:21:44,467 --> 02:21:46,467
Now we're at 100,000X.

1666
02:21:46,467 --> 02:21:48,467
So we can only do 10X like two more times.

1667
02:21:48,467 --> 02:21:53,467
So we only have basically two more rotations to go.

1668
02:21:53,467 --> 02:21:56,467
The final one has to be 8 billion people using Bitcoin.

1669
02:21:56,467 --> 02:22:03,467
But for some reason, this has become a – like a weird thing to say even though it's
common sense.

1670
02:22:03,467 --> 02:22:06,467
It is like basically indisputable.

1671
02:22:06,467 --> 02:22:09,467
I mean people dispute it but they can't really dispute it.

1672
02:22:09,467 --> 02:22:17,467
And I think one of the reasons why is that this calls – it just shifts more
attention on Lightning and the fact that Lightning cannot accomplish this task.

1673
02:22:17,467 --> 02:22:21,467
It forces people, oh, I have to admit that Lightning didn't work.

1674
02:22:21,467 --> 02:22:27,467
I don't want to do that, so instead I'll just say that – I'll just say whatever.

1675
02:22:27,467 --> 02:22:29,467
I'll just say it's paper Bitcoin summer or something.

1676
02:22:29,467 --> 02:22:30,467
I don't know.

1677
02:22:30,467 --> 02:22:46,467
They'll just say like that it will go – the value of Bitcoin will go up because
MicroStrategy is buying more, which by the way cannot possibly be true or that El
Salvador is buying more or something.

1678
02:22:46,467 --> 02:23:00,467
If real people in these organizations were actually adopting it and purging
themselves of fiat and saying we're switching, we're using Bitcoin to transact as
users, then that would count.

1679
02:23:00,467 --> 02:23:05,467
So yeah, there was a longstanding debate like store of value versus medium of
exchange.

1680
02:23:05,467 --> 02:23:06,467
But really, we need both.

1681
02:23:06,467 --> 02:23:13,467
We need to win the store of value war and the medium of exchange war or we will
lose.

1682
02:23:13,467 --> 02:23:16,467
It's like a castle where you have a front gate and a back gate.

1683
02:23:16,467 --> 02:23:22,467
We need to win on all sides or we will go to zero, and we have no choice.

1684
02:23:22,467 --> 02:23:31,467
That is – if you don't like it, then that's like – this is inevitable battle coming
down the road.

1685
02:23:32,467 --> 02:23:42,467
And either it will be – there will be some crypto coin that wins and is a store of
value and is used by 8 billion people, in which case Bitcoin will certainly go to
zero in that case.

1686
02:23:42,467 --> 02:23:51,467
Or there will just be – or it won't happen and people will still be using fiat, but
then it will be the Ponzification.

1687
02:23:51,467 --> 02:23:56,467
It will just be a Ponzi scheme because – can we just think about it?

1688
02:23:56,467 --> 02:23:59,467
We have two rotations to go.

1689
02:23:59,467 --> 02:24:01,467
Let's say we do the other rotation.

1690
02:24:01,467 --> 02:24:04,467
We go 10x from $100,000 to $1 million.

1691
02:24:06,467 --> 02:24:13,467
But now everyone realizes we can't do the next 10x because that's the last one, and
we can't do it without 8 billion users.

1692
02:24:13,467 --> 02:24:15,467
And you look around and you think, oh, what have we got?

1693
02:24:15,467 --> 02:24:16,467
Oh, lightning network?

1694
02:24:16,467 --> 02:24:17,467
It doesn't work.

1695
02:24:17,467 --> 02:24:20,467
And oh, CTV, but we can't activate it.

1696
02:24:20,467 --> 02:24:28,467
So then people realize, oh, actually, we can't do the last rotation.

1697
02:24:28,467 --> 02:24:40,467
We can't do the last 10x without help from real people, the actual El Salvador
farmer or whatever, coffee farmer or something.

1698
02:24:40,467 --> 02:24:51,467
And so then it becomes a Ponzi, and then it just becomes – everyone will just sell
and leave, especially if it becomes obvious that something else will do that.

1699
02:24:51,467 --> 02:24:54,467
And that other thing could be a different cryptocurrency.

1700
02:24:54,467 --> 02:24:56,467
It could be a different hard fork of Bitcoin.

1701
02:24:56,467 --> 02:25:08,467
It could be some other variant, or it could be fiat, or it could be like WeChat Pay
or Venmo or something or Strike or these other things.

1702
02:25:08,467 --> 02:25:16,467
It could be some – but when people realize that – or USDT, they'll be thinking, oh,
okay.

1703
02:25:17,467 --> 02:25:28,467
It can't – the fact that Bitcoin is this sovereign capital that people can't take
away from you, that is enormously beneficial.

1704
02:25:28,467 --> 02:25:38,467
But if there's something else that has that exact property and 8 billion people use
it, then there's no room for Bitcoin in that world.

1705
02:25:38,467 --> 02:25:44,467
Bitcoin would just become like some other – it would just be like Steemit or
whatever.

1706
02:25:44,467 --> 02:25:49,467
It would just be – it would be like the MySpace, Facebook type thing.

1707
02:25:49,467 --> 02:25:56,467
So anyway, I just thought I would explain that one because a lot of people don't
really grasp that one I think.

1708
02:25:56,467 --> 02:26:04,467
Oh, I think the average 50-page libertarian slash Austrian economist argument
against that is that money printing is infinite.

1709
02:26:04,467 --> 02:26:09,467
So of course there's got to be another 10x because there's got to be 10x of money
supply.

1710
02:26:09,467 --> 02:26:18,467
I was speaking in terms of purchasing power, so it's true that the fiat currencies
are all doomed, which is great for Bitcoin for now.

1711
02:26:18,467 --> 02:26:29,467
It's possible that the US – if the US economy adds just a little bit – it's kind of
bizarre because every country in the world is screwing up their fiat currencies.

1712
02:26:29,467 --> 02:26:33,467
But actually, if the US government – I mean not the US government.

1713
02:26:33,467 --> 02:26:39,467
The US economy can just get like a little extra like 1% growth per year.

1714
02:26:39,467 --> 02:26:49,467
I know it's like – it's actually kind of a lot if you really look at the history of
it growing at a very regular rate for a long time.

1715
02:26:49,467 --> 02:26:54,467
But then we can actually pay off all this national debt.

1716
02:26:54,467 --> 02:27:01,467
It sounds astounding because all this stuff is – cannot be – we have all these
debts.

1717
02:27:01,467 --> 02:27:14,467
But yeah, if we can't or if growth is lower or worse, then there will be just huge
sovereign debt crisis and there will be lots of money printing.

1718
02:27:14,467 --> 02:27:20,467
Fed independence will be fake, and they will print a lot of money.

1719
02:27:20,467 --> 02:27:30,467
But I was not referring to – this is the other thing is that if it was just Bitcoin
versus fiat, then none of these derangements would matter.

1720
02:27:30,467 --> 02:27:34,467
But it's just – this is the world.

1721
02:27:34,467 --> 02:27:42,467
The world is really a blank slate, and anyone could copy Bitcoin or study it.

1722
02:27:42,467 --> 02:27:44,467
Like the Ethereum people are doing every day.

1723
02:27:44,467 --> 02:27:46,467
The Ethereum people are plotting.

1724
02:27:46,467 --> 02:27:48,467
They're saying, how can we overthrow Bitcoin?

1725
02:27:48,467 --> 02:27:50,467
These are the weak points.

1726
02:27:50,467 --> 02:27:53,467
We're going to outcompete them on such and such.

1727
02:27:53,467 --> 02:28:06,467
So people could be inventing stuff all the time every day, and that is the – when
one of those things succeeds, it will be clear that Bitcoin Core as an organization
has failed.

1728
02:28:07,467 --> 02:28:15,467
But it will not necessarily mean that fiat – that Bitcoiners were wrong about
anything or that fiat currencies are good.

1729
02:28:15,467 --> 02:28:19,467
So yeah, they will print, and a lot of them are doomed.

1730
02:28:19,467 --> 02:28:29,467
Who wants to own like a Central African currency or even really Latin American
currency?

1731
02:28:29,467 --> 02:28:34,467
A lot of this stuff is already pegged to the US dollar in some form.

1732
02:28:34,467 --> 02:28:45,467
Eastern Caribbean is like – a lot of this stuff is already dollarized, and then the
internet will add more network effects.

1733
02:28:45,467 --> 02:28:50,467
So there will be more consolidation I think of that.

1734
02:28:50,467 --> 02:28:55,467
But that's not my point about the 10X.

1735
02:28:55,467 --> 02:29:00,467
Like if they hit 10X, that would just be like a free intermediate rotation.

1736
02:29:00,467 --> 02:29:01,467
See what I mean?

1737
02:29:02,467 --> 02:29:09,467
As an inflation hedge, you would benefit if they printed a ton of money, and that is
a good reason to own Bitcoin.

1738
02:29:09,467 --> 02:29:16,467
But it doesn't change the fact that the whole thing is a Ponzi if we don't have the
final – I guess not.

1739
02:29:16,467 --> 02:29:29,467
I guess you could actually make an argument that just says this is just – I'm just
going to temporarily ride in this undetermined Ponzi universe because I think there
will be so much money printing that this is just something.

1740
02:29:29,467 --> 02:29:34,467
This is like owning a – owning famous art or owning commodities.

1741
02:29:34,467 --> 02:29:41,467
It's like owning a giant truck full of copper or something, and the government is
just going to print them, and I just want to have my money out of cash.

1742
02:29:41,467 --> 02:29:42,467
But you see what I mean?

1743
02:29:42,467 --> 02:29:43,467
Just ditching cash.

1744
02:29:43,467 --> 02:29:52,467
If you just ditched cash and you bought anything and then the government does money
printing, you're still better off.

1745
02:29:52,467 --> 02:29:56,467
So you see this argument doesn't really have anything to do with Bitcoin per se.

1746
02:29:56,467 --> 02:29:58,467
It's just getting your money out of fiat.

1747
02:29:58,467 --> 02:30:04,467
Which, yeah, as someone trained in economics, I have to say they will.

1748
02:30:04,587 --> 02:30:11,987
These fiat currencies are not a great place to store your money.

1749
02:30:12,587 --> 02:30:21,387
They are a really great place to store a small amount of money for the stuff that
you need to buy, but you should get out and buy other things and buy anything else.

1750
02:30:22,387 --> 02:30:35,387
I just want to announce that there's Jay Berg in the chat, and he exclaimed sports.
That's all he said.

1751
02:30:36,387 --> 02:30:44,387
Yeah, I don't know if anyone has any – if people are curious about any one of the
derangements in particular, we just listed them off.

1752
02:30:45,387 --> 02:30:50,387
So I don't know if anyone is like, oh, what's that one about? And they didn't want
to open the article and look and read the bullet points.

1753
02:30:51,387 --> 02:31:03,387
So if you're on YouTube, you can find it in the description. If you're not on
YouTube and you're on Twitter or you're going to find yourself on Spotify in a
couple of days, it's Truthcoin.info.blog.derangements.

1754
02:31:04,387 --> 02:31:14,387
And even after this show ends, you can still go to the LayerTwo Labs telegram chat,
which is DC Insiders. And you can ask questions there if you still have them.

1755
02:31:15,387 --> 02:31:28,387
Paul, I want to talk about these non-mineable L2s or non-mined L2s, but I want to
ask you to get a drink because you seem a bit tired. And in the meantime, I will do
the ads, which I forgot to do.

1756
02:31:29,387 --> 02:31:30,387
Refill my water.

1757
02:31:30,387 --> 02:31:42,387
Yep. So let's start with Sideshift, which is also a friend of LayerTwo Labs. And they
are this platform where you can swap something that someone wants to pay you in, but
you don't really want.

1758
02:31:43,387 --> 02:31:55,387
For example, stablecoins, they're the prime example of something that you don't want
to hold long term. Maybe that you think that we're still in a bull market and you
don't want to hold into this or you care very much about censorship resistance.

1759
02:31:56,387 --> 02:32:09,387
And let's say that someone wants to send you $100 in USDT and you don't want to set
up a wallet for that, like a Tron wallet and pay gas fees and whatever. You just
want to stay away from that.

1760
02:32:10,387 --> 02:32:24,387
All you have to do is go to Sideshift.ai and you paste your Bitcoin address in
there. You click the shift button and then you copy the USDT address. You send it to
the person wanting to send you the $100 in USDT.

1761
02:32:25,387 --> 02:32:32,387
And you're just going to get once the transaction settles, you're just going to get
Bitcoin to your wallet. Sideshift, really good friends of LayerTwo Labs also.

1762
02:32:33,387 --> 02:32:43,387
Also, I got to plug Brains, which is the oldest Bitcoin company in the world. They
used to be known as Slushbull and before that they were BitcoinMining.cz.

1763
02:32:44,387 --> 02:32:52,387
And what they did recently was to launch a hashrate marketplace, which is called
hashpower.brains.com. It's brains with the double I.

1764
02:32:53,387 --> 02:33:03,387
What's interesting about it is that you can basically rent the equivalent of a
thousand Bittax Supras, which I see that they're very popular small home mining
devices.

1765
02:33:04,387 --> 02:33:14,387
And you can rent that for like $5 per hour. And it's interesting because you can use
the hashrate either as a lottery ticket or you can use it to 51% attack.

1766
02:33:15,387 --> 02:33:24,387
I'm not going to say what. I don't want to be held legally liable for that, but you
can use it for anything you want. It's sort of anonymous.

1767
02:33:25,387 --> 02:33:35,387
So you can use your imagination to basically use the hashrate in any way that you
want. It's SHA-256 and you can bid for it at Brains hashpower.

1768
02:33:36,387 --> 02:33:44,387
And I also have to plug Bitcoin.com news, which used to be green and they were
saying that BCH is faster and has lower fees than BTC.

1769
02:33:45,387 --> 02:33:54,387
But now they went through a major rebranding, which made them orange. And I do like
their news because they're more balanced than Bitcoin Magazine or Coindesk.

1770
02:33:55,387 --> 02:33:59,387
And you find a lot of information there, including gold, which I was surprised.

1771
02:34:00,387 --> 02:34:06,387
Okay, I sort of respect it. It's coverage on markets. They added gold into the mix.

1772
02:34:07,387 --> 02:34:15,387
And did I forget anyone? Yes, I did forget noones.com, which is a peer-to-peer
marketplace for the global south.

1773
02:34:16,387 --> 02:34:23,387
So if you care about this justice dimension of Bitcoin and what it can do to
countries that you never hear about on the news,

1774
02:34:23,387 --> 02:34:33,387
you go to noones.com and you trade there and you're going to get liquidity into the
hands of Nigerians and people who want to hustle their way into building wealth.

1775
02:34:34,387 --> 02:34:40,387
Check it out. It's noones.com. Thank you, Paul, for getting refreshed and sitting
through my ads.

1776
02:34:41,387 --> 02:34:48,387
I plugged them like two hours and 30 minutes into the show. So I hope that there
were enough people still listening out there.

1777
02:34:49,387 --> 02:34:56,387
And let's get to the derangements. This one is about non-mined layer twos.

1778
02:34:57,387 --> 02:35:01,387
And just today, Citra launched. It's something that's built using BitVM.

1779
02:35:02,387 --> 02:35:06,387
It's trying to emulate the features of Ethereum on something that's called a
sovereign rollup.

1780
02:35:07,387 --> 02:35:16,387
I think it's interesting in some ways for the use cases, sort of cannibalizes with
what the Ethereum Drivechain is trying to accomplish.

1781
02:35:16,387 --> 02:35:22,387
I think it's called ETH side, but it still doesn't pay fees to the miners.

1782
02:35:23,387 --> 02:35:26,387
And I think this is a conversation that needs to be had.

1783
02:35:27,387 --> 02:35:34,387
Well, I don't know if, you know, weren't they originally doing a spider chains,
which is like a two of two multi-state thing?

1784
02:35:35,387 --> 02:35:36,387
I'm not sure. They may have. Everyone may have switched.

1785
02:35:37,387 --> 02:35:41,387
Is anyone using that at all? Like I heard about it like two years ago and then poof.

1786
02:35:42,387 --> 02:35:43,387
I didn't think so.

1787
02:35:44,387 --> 02:35:48,387
And then, of course, you jump on the BitVM bandwagon.

1788
02:35:51,387 --> 02:35:53,387
As many people did. So I don't know. I actually have not familiar.

1789
02:35:54,387 --> 02:36:00,387
And the last I remembered was they were doing. I mean, maybe I'm misremembering. I
don't think so, though.

1790
02:36:01,387 --> 02:36:06,387
Weren't they doing it? Citra was originally doing this spider chain thing. Or was
that someone else?

1791
02:36:07,387 --> 02:36:16,387
No, it's BitVM. I actually have a helmet here because one of their team members came
to me in Romania and I was like number 65 on their trusted setup ceremony.

1792
02:36:18,387 --> 02:36:20,387
Yeah, but this was my this was when I.

1793
02:36:23,387 --> 02:36:25,387
This was the last time the conference was in Miami, I think.

1794
02:36:28,387 --> 02:36:30,387
Maybe or maybe not. I don't know what I'm talking about.

1795
02:36:30,387 --> 02:36:37,387
I shouldn't even just like, you know, but like the point is, it's not, you know,
they could have a great project or maybe they don't.

1796
02:36:38,387 --> 02:36:39,387
But I think.

1797
02:36:42,387 --> 02:36:50,387
The point about the non-mined L2s that may apply to them, you know, because they may
have switched to something that is mined L2.

1798
02:36:50,387 --> 02:36:52,387
I don't think so, because basically no one is.

1799
02:36:53,387 --> 02:36:54,387
But no, it's not.

1800
02:36:54,387 --> 02:36:55,387
Most L2s.

1801
02:36:55,387 --> 02:37:03,387
They just have the rollups, which are inscribed on the base layer, are going to
increase the transaction fees because they're putting data there.

1802
02:37:04,387 --> 02:37:15,387
Yeah. OK, so to break this down in a way that people can understand, you have L1 and
L2, you make one transaction.

1803
02:37:15,387 --> 02:37:20,387
This is sometimes called a lift transaction, but it's like, you know, or deposit.

1804
02:37:20,387 --> 02:37:28,387
But the coins move from L1 to L2, then they move on L2, they move from L2 to L2,
maybe an unlimited number of times.

1805
02:37:28,387 --> 02:37:31,387
Then they come, they drop back down or they withdraw.

1806
02:37:32,387 --> 02:37:34,387
Back from L2 back to L1.

1807
02:37:36,387 --> 02:37:38,387
Now, everything has this feature.

1808
02:37:39,387 --> 02:37:41,387
Every L2 must have this.

1809
02:37:42,387 --> 02:37:43,387
Somehow.

1810
02:37:44,387 --> 02:37:48,387
And they all add to the L1 fees.

1811
02:37:49,387 --> 02:37:51,387
When you transfer in and out.

1812
02:37:52,387 --> 02:37:57,387
And all of them, by virtue of making L1 transaction potentially more productive.

1813
02:37:58,387 --> 02:38:06,387
They may raise people's willingness to pay for because they might say, well, you
know what, all I need to do is pay for one layer, one transaction fee.

1814
02:38:06,387 --> 02:38:08,387
And I can do infinite L2.

1815
02:38:08,387 --> 02:38:10,387
This is like part of the lightning pitch.

1816
02:38:10,387 --> 02:38:22,387
So it won't matter that people have to pay $50 per L1 transaction fee because once
you do, then that's the only one you have to pay in your entire life.

1817
02:38:22,387 --> 02:38:24,387
And so that was kind of like the pitch.

1818
02:38:24,387 --> 02:38:32,387
Very few people ever did like the math or even the napkin math or even any other
kind of like simulation or explanation of how it all worked.

1819
02:38:32,387 --> 02:38:39,387
And then some people were saying, you had people who said and some of these people
debated me in a recorded debate.

1820
02:38:40,387 --> 02:38:47,387
But yeah, then you had some people saying, oh, yeah, it won't matter if it's by 50
or 100 or $2,000 per L1 transaction.

1821
02:38:47,387 --> 02:38:56,387
And this will be like when you buy your child their first car, you'll get them,
you'll buy them their first lightning channel.

1822
02:38:56,387 --> 02:38:58,387
It sounds incredible, but people are actually saying this type of thing.

1823
02:38:58,387 --> 02:39:08,387
They say, yeah, when this is how it'll work in 100 years and then everyone will buy
and then you'll work all day and you'll save up for three months or for three years.

1824
02:39:08,387 --> 02:39:13,387
And you can finally afford the L1 transaction for your son.

1825
02:39:13,387 --> 02:39:17,387
And now he can be on the lightning network.

1826
02:39:17,387 --> 02:39:18,387
People would say stuff like that.

1827
02:39:19,387 --> 02:39:32,387
With BIPVM, you know, I just commented that Robin Linus has said multiple times that
it's that BIP300 is preferable to BIPVM, but that BIP300 doesn't exist.

1828
02:39:32,387 --> 02:39:36,387
So you have to work with what we have, which is a totally reasonable thing to say.

1829
02:39:37,387 --> 02:39:55,387
But like he said many times in public and on recorded camera and whatever, he has
said like that BIPVM is a very bizarre hack and it involves all these extra steps
and is convoluted and it also requires covenants, requires some kind of covenant.

1830
02:39:55,387 --> 02:40:04,387
As of even BIPVM v3, which I think was presented in November.

1831
02:40:05,387 --> 02:40:06,387
They came up with v4.

1832
02:40:06,387 --> 02:40:08,387
They have a v4 now.

1833
02:40:08,387 --> 02:40:10,387
It's like 2000 times more efficient.

1834
02:40:10,387 --> 02:40:11,387
Oh, yeah.

1835
02:40:11,387 --> 02:40:14,387
It was actually versions one and two.

1836
02:40:14,387 --> 02:40:17,387
I think it was more than four megabytes.

1837
02:40:17,387 --> 02:40:20,387
Even the one of the transactions in the sequence.

1838
02:40:23,387 --> 02:40:27,387
I don't remember which and I'm not that interested in it, but one of them was more
than four megabytes.

1839
02:40:27,387 --> 02:40:29,387
So it was like it wouldn't fit.

1840
02:40:30,387 --> 02:40:33,387
Even if it got, you know, like it was not possible.

1841
02:40:33,387 --> 02:40:35,387
But then, of course, they knew they would shrink it over time.

1842
02:40:35,387 --> 02:40:37,387
So they've been shrinking it and shrinking it and shrinking it.

1843
02:40:37,387 --> 02:40:38,387
I think it finally.

1844
02:40:39,387 --> 02:40:44,387
So now if it's over 2000, you know, they're making it much better and it might be
great.

1845
02:40:44,387 --> 02:40:51,387
But this is all adjacent to the point about the fact that they're non-mined.

1846
02:40:51,387 --> 02:40:55,387
So let me explain why is it important whether or not they're mined, the L2s.

1847
02:40:55,387 --> 02:40:57,387
And it goes like this.

1848
02:40:57,387 --> 02:41:03,387
Let's imagine a hypothetical world where Bitcoin is very, very successful and eight
billion people are actually using it.

1849
02:41:04,387 --> 02:41:06,387
You have eight billion people using it.

1850
02:41:06,387 --> 02:41:09,387
And then some percentages of people are like children or whatever.

1851
02:41:09,387 --> 02:41:18,387
But basically you have like a certain number of households and they make three
transactions a day or something worldwide average.

1852
02:41:20,387 --> 02:41:26,387
This is like on the order of like eight, nine, ten trillion transactions per year.

1853
02:41:26,387 --> 02:41:29,387
When I last did the math, which is like the year 2024.

1854
02:41:29,387 --> 02:41:32,387
And this value doubles every 11 years.

1855
02:41:32,387 --> 02:41:42,387
So it would be 20 trillion in 2034 based on my research, which is, you know, it's
like napkin math research.

1856
02:41:42,387 --> 02:41:44,387
But I did some research unlike everyone else.

1857
02:41:45,387 --> 02:41:47,387
So I looked into it a little bit.

1858
02:41:47,387 --> 02:41:50,387
Now you imagine a world where this is successful.

1859
02:41:50,387 --> 02:41:55,387
We got nine trillion transactions per year and they each pay $0.10 transaction fee.

1860
02:41:56,387 --> 02:41:59,387
Again, these are just some numbers for the sake of just getting it out there.

1861
02:41:59,387 --> 02:42:04,387
This is just – and again, I don't think this is that sophisticated of a thing.

1862
02:42:04,387 --> 02:42:09,387
This is why I call it a derangement because I don't think this is like cold fusion
here.

1863
02:42:09,387 --> 02:42:14,387
I'm just saying what would the world look like if everyone used Bitcoin?

1864
02:42:16,387 --> 02:42:17,387
It could be Lightning.

1865
02:42:17,387 --> 02:42:18,387
It could be ARK.

1866
02:42:18,387 --> 02:42:19,387
It could be nothing.

1867
02:42:19,387 --> 02:42:20,387
It could be custodial.

1868
02:42:20,387 --> 02:42:22,387
I'm just saying let's just put this down.

1869
02:42:23,387 --> 02:42:24,387
Here's the number of people.

1870
02:42:24,387 --> 02:42:26,387
Here's transactions per day.

1871
02:42:26,387 --> 02:42:28,387
Here's transactions per year.

1872
02:42:28,387 --> 02:42:30,387
Here is the fee that people would pay.

1873
02:42:30,387 --> 02:42:37,387
This is a much lower fee than the total effective fee for Visa and for some of these
other things.

1874
02:42:37,387 --> 02:42:38,387
It is as low as free.

1875
02:42:38,387 --> 02:42:47,387
But then, of course, like with WeChat Pay, there's like an implied fee, which is
that the government is spying on you all the time and can lock you out of your
money.

1876
02:42:48,387 --> 02:42:51,387
So there's kind of like how do you apples to apples compare it.

1877
02:42:51,387 --> 02:42:53,387
But with the credit cards, the fee are much higher.

1878
02:42:53,387 --> 02:42:57,387
It's always like 1% plus $0.50 per transaction or something.

1879
02:42:57,387 --> 02:43:05,387
Of course, the merchant pays the fee, but obviously, they pass it on to the consumer
in the form of higher prices.

1880
02:43:05,387 --> 02:43:06,387
Obviously, they must.

1881
02:43:08,387 --> 02:43:11,387
So I don't think this is that sophisticated of an analysis.

1882
02:43:11,387 --> 02:43:16,387
You just write down some napkin math and like what does the world look like when we
have succeeded?

1883
02:43:18,387 --> 02:43:27,387
And what this looks like is 9 trillion transactions, $900 billion a year in
transaction fee revenue.

1884
02:43:27,387 --> 02:43:30,387
Now, the question is this money has to go to someone.

1885
02:43:32,387 --> 02:43:42,387
If the L2s are mined L2s, they have merged mined L2s and the money goes to the L1
miners, then the miners are the same group of people.

1886
02:43:42,387 --> 02:43:45,387
The same group of people get paid on all the layers.

1887
02:43:46,387 --> 02:43:49,387
So there's no possibility of a conflict of interest.

1888
02:43:51,387 --> 02:43:54,387
The miners don't care if they make – as long as it's the same amount of money.

1889
02:43:54,387 --> 02:44:04,387
They say, oh, do I get 10 billion from L1 or do I get 100 million from L1 and then
99.9 billion from L2?

1890
02:44:04,387 --> 02:44:05,387
It's the same amount of money.

1891
02:44:05,387 --> 02:44:07,387
So we just get to ignore this question.

1892
02:44:07,387 --> 02:44:12,387
We have a totally peaceful ignoring of this part.

1893
02:44:13,387 --> 02:44:15,387
But what if it goes to someone else?

1894
02:44:15,387 --> 02:44:23,387
And this is the question of the non-mined L2s, which is what if it goes to the arc
supernode or what if in the case of the ZK rollup sequencer?

1895
02:44:23,387 --> 02:44:31,387
I don't know exactly what their thing is because as I just said, as of like 15
minutes ago, I thought they were doing the spider chain thing.

1896
02:44:31,387 --> 02:44:33,387
That's just – I guess they abandoned that.

1897
02:44:33,387 --> 02:44:37,387
So see, here's the thing.

1898
02:44:37,387 --> 02:44:40,387
If you abandon that, maybe they'll abandon the new thing and then I don't know.

1899
02:44:40,387 --> 02:44:57,387
But what I'm getting at is you have either – OK, so like the arc supernode or like
the LN LSP, Lightning Service Provider, or the Federation member, like the Fediment
group.

1900
02:44:57,387 --> 02:45:20,387
With the non-mined L2s, someone is getting this money, or maybe you have some kind
of argument where like due to increased competition, the user doesn't have to pay
this $0.10 fee, and so it's passed on to the consumer or something.

1901
02:45:20,387 --> 02:45:22,387
I don't know.

1902
02:45:22,387 --> 02:45:25,387
But the point is this.

1903
02:45:25,387 --> 02:45:45,387
This now sets the stage for an enormous conflict of interest between the L1 miners
and the L2 whoever is making all this money because we're talking – in my
hypothetical example, we're talking $900 billion per year, which is much, much, much
more than they currently make.

1904
02:45:46,387 --> 02:45:50,387
I have the math in whatever the post, but it's like maybe whatever.

1905
02:45:50,387 --> 02:45:53,387
We're talking like only one one-hundredth of that.

1906
02:45:53,387 --> 02:45:56,387
We're talking like really, really small, including of block subs.

1907
02:45:56,387 --> 02:46:00,387
So I'm saying in the future, block subsidies may be zero.

1908
02:46:00,387 --> 02:46:04,387
Transaction fees are this huge pie.

1909
02:46:04,387 --> 02:46:11,387
What percent go to the L1 miners versus what percent go to a non-mined L2?

1910
02:46:11,387 --> 02:46:17,387
And I think for this reason, the non-mined L2s are doomed because ultimately even if
they succeed – if they fail, then they fail.

1911
02:46:17,387 --> 02:46:20,387
If they succeed, then they set the stage for this conflict of interest.

1912
02:46:20,387 --> 02:46:36,387
So the miners are thinking, well, listen, as a miner, I make $0 per year, but if I
ran the ARK Supernode or if I ran the Lightning Service Provider, then I would make
$900 billion a year with a B.

1913
02:46:36,387 --> 02:46:45,387
And it grows and it doubles every – it increases with the transaction volume, so it
doubles every 11 years.

1914
02:46:45,387 --> 02:46:51,387
So do I want to be part of zero and shrinking or $900 billion and doubling every 11
years?

1915
02:46:51,387 --> 02:46:53,387
Everyone will say, oh, I want that.

1916
02:46:53,387 --> 02:47:04,387
So then the temptation is for Foundry, hypothetically, to create like Foundry LSP,
Foundry Lightning Service Provider, and do their own.

1917
02:47:04,387 --> 02:47:16,387
But now they have the temptation to play dirty, and they can just censor the
transactions which go to the rival L2s, which they can always block from L1.

1918
02:47:16,387 --> 02:47:18,387
And they can do other things as well.

1919
02:47:19,387 --> 02:47:38,387
So Lightning Network is actually very vulnerable to having hash – you don't want to
have a channel open with someone who has a high hash rate because the whole
Lightning security model is based on being able to get the so-called justice
transaction into the block chain fast enough to stop them from stealing your money.

1920
02:47:38,387 --> 02:47:59,387
But if you actually are against a 51 percent hash rate group or 100 percent hash
rate group, now the Lightning Network is never secure unless you are partnered with
the Lightning LSP, the Foundry LSP.

1921
02:47:59,387 --> 02:48:01,387
So I don't know. Is this making sense so far?

1922
02:48:01,387 --> 02:48:06,387
I realize now it just – it went from being kind of simple to being a little bit more
complicated.

1923
02:48:06,387 --> 02:48:19,387
But the issue here is that now all the Lightning stuff like the HTLCs, the channels,
all that is now out the window because it's just – none of that is actually being
used and you're just having a channel open with one Foundry LSP.

1924
02:48:19,387 --> 02:48:22,387
And this is in the good case where Lightning is a big success.

1925
02:48:23,387 --> 02:48:50,387
So all the non-mined L2s, they have planted within them the seeds of destruction,
which is that they do not kick their fees down to the L1 miners, which I think is
not only kind of the right thing to do but also it is sort of inevitable that you
either will have a big fight between L1 miners and these non-mined L2s, and the
non-mined L2s can't really win.

1926
02:48:50,387 --> 02:48:53,387
I mean they may have the users. They may have user experience.

1927
02:48:53,387 --> 02:49:00,387
But the L1 miners have all the bullets. They can block the transactions. They can
interfere.

1928
02:49:00,387 --> 02:49:06,387
All these things, even BitVM requires that there's like a bond that be pushed on and
be slashed on L1.

1929
02:49:06,387 --> 02:49:11,387
But the L1 miners can block anything, any message they don't like on L1.

1930
02:49:11,387 --> 02:49:20,387
So the L1 miners can screw up every – the L1 miners can screw up any kind of L2 that
they don't like.

1931
02:49:20,387 --> 02:49:26,387
So that was why with Drivechain I was like, oh, I'm just going to make sure they
really like the L2s because they'll be making all this money from the L2s.

1932
02:49:26,387 --> 02:49:28,387
They'll just be very happy about the L2s.

1933
02:49:28,387 --> 02:49:37,387
But other people just don't – they just seem to have ignored this whole dimension
of, well, what if this L2 is really, really successful?

1934
02:49:38,387 --> 02:49:40,387
So they kind of want to have it both ways.

1935
02:49:40,387 --> 02:49:49,387
They want to say this is a small experimental project and it's not going to have any
real significance because it's just a tiny little toy, fediment or whatever.

1936
02:49:49,387 --> 02:49:53,387
But then they don't take seriously what would happen if it were a big success.

1937
02:49:53,387 --> 02:49:55,387
And so this is just a –

1938
02:49:55,387 --> 02:49:56,387
I disagree with you.

1939
02:49:56,387 --> 02:49:59,387
Like the marketing for Fediments was humongous.

1940
02:49:59,387 --> 02:50:02,387
They were like, oh, we're going to onboard billions of people.

1941
02:50:02,387 --> 02:50:08,387
We're going to get all the community leaders to run their own mints and run on
Bitcoin and blah, blah, blah.

1942
02:50:08,387 --> 02:50:09,387
Yeah, I know.

1943
02:50:09,387 --> 02:50:10,387
Well, that's what I mean.

1944
02:50:10,387 --> 02:50:11,387
They want it both ways.

1945
02:50:11,387 --> 02:50:19,387
So they say our project is great, but then they don't take seriously what would
happen if it was great because it wouldn't work.

1946
02:50:19,387 --> 02:50:28,387
So, yeah, I think that's a pretty big – because all of the attention, as you just
said, is heaped onto the non-mined L2s.

1947
02:50:28,387 --> 02:50:31,387
But I think the whole category is doomed.

1948
02:50:31,387 --> 02:50:32,387
So I don't know.

1949
02:50:32,387 --> 02:50:36,387
I presented this at Opnext and I didn't hear anyone.

1950
02:50:36,387 --> 02:50:43,387
What people said is that people dragged me into the hallway, big people, big
lightning company and foundry.

1951
02:50:43,387 --> 02:50:47,387
They were like, oh, this is exactly what we've been talking about in our internal
discussions.

1952
02:50:47,387 --> 02:50:58,387
So, yeah, I've never heard any counterargument to this basic idea that if you don't
pay L1 miners, then either thing will be a failure and it won't matter.

1953
02:50:58,387 --> 02:50:59,387
It will be a moot point.

1954
02:50:59,387 --> 02:51:15,387
But if it's a big success, then doesn't that – doesn't that reject Satoshi's plan,
which is for – to have the transaction fees go to the people putting the transaction
in the L1 blocks?

1955
02:51:15,387 --> 02:51:19,387
The answer is yes, and it makes no sense too because Satoshi helped.

1956
02:51:19,387 --> 02:51:27,387
Satoshi was the one who helped invent merge mining, which he did before leaving, and
we have been merge mining Namecoin the whole time.

1957
02:51:27,387 --> 02:51:32,387
So all these L2s could be merge mined, and all of mine are.

1958
02:51:32,387 --> 02:51:35,387
And I don't know why other people don't just take that.

1959
02:51:35,387 --> 02:51:37,387
It's free, low-hanging fruit.

1960
02:51:37,387 --> 02:51:42,387
But instead they deal with this other stuff.

1961
02:51:42,387 --> 02:51:45,387
They deal with this other stuff, and this is – that's why it's a derangement.

1962
02:51:45,387 --> 02:51:47,387
It's just they're chasing the prestige.

1963
02:51:47,387 --> 02:51:50,387
They're chasing whatever, the VC money.

1964
02:51:50,387 --> 02:51:54,387
The whole thing is actually very bleak I think.

1965
02:51:54,387 --> 02:51:59,387
Why is so much attention being paid to the worst category of idea?

1966
02:51:59,387 --> 02:52:03,387
I don't know, but that is – that's that derangement.

1967
02:52:03,387 --> 02:52:05,387
So there you go.

1968
02:52:05,387 --> 02:52:08,387
Yeah, it's something very important.

1969
02:52:08,387 --> 02:52:10,387
I'm happy that we addressed it.

1970
02:52:10,387 --> 02:52:15,387
And you have sources for this, like links that people can click to learn more.

1971
02:52:15,387 --> 02:52:17,387
Very useful.

1972
02:52:17,387 --> 02:52:24,387
Another significant point that you raise here is purity tests.

1973
02:52:24,387 --> 02:52:35,387
I think this one – we sort of touched upon it, but at the same time I'm someone who
got excommunicated for interviewing the wrong person almost two years ago.

1974
02:52:35,387 --> 02:52:39,387
And I know what it's like to be on the receiving side.

1975
02:52:39,387 --> 02:52:42,387
And it's really not nice, to be honest.

1976
02:52:42,387 --> 02:52:44,387
It doesn't matter.

1977
02:52:44,387 --> 02:52:46,387
So I will not make this about myself.

1978
02:52:46,387 --> 02:52:49,387
I will just make this about Gavin Andreessen.

1979
02:52:49,387 --> 02:52:56,387
He created the multisig, which is like what some people describe as the silver
bullet for security.

1980
02:52:56,387 --> 02:52:58,387
BitGo has built a business on top of it.

1981
02:52:58,387 --> 02:53:01,387
Casa has built a business on top of the multisig.

1982
02:53:01,387 --> 02:53:04,387
A lot of people argue that it's useful.

1983
02:53:04,387 --> 02:53:10,387
He also did some other works, which people will disagree that they were useful at
all.

1984
02:53:10,387 --> 02:53:18,387
And he also supported XT and then sort of supported Classic and Unlimited.

1985
02:53:18,387 --> 02:53:25,387
And then he said that Bitcoin Cash is the same chain that he started working on in
2010 and stuff like this.

1986
02:53:25,387 --> 02:53:31,387
But we sort of erased him from history because of the stuff that he did.

1987
02:53:31,387 --> 02:53:33,387
He got off easy, I think.

1988
02:53:33,387 --> 02:53:37,387
Some people wish they could just be erased.

1989
02:53:37,387 --> 02:53:39,387
No, I'm just kidding.

1990
02:53:39,387 --> 02:53:40,387
What do you mean?

1991
02:53:40,387 --> 02:53:42,387
Yeah, he's a super nice guy.

1992
02:53:42,387 --> 02:53:44,387
He's very smart and very hardworking.

1993
02:53:44,387 --> 02:53:48,387
And yeah, ultimately the industry is so vicious.

1994
02:53:48,387 --> 02:53:51,387
You need thick skin, but you don't just need thick skin.

1995
02:53:51,387 --> 02:53:56,387
You need like really, really like diamond, super thick skin.

1996
02:53:56,387 --> 02:53:58,387
The industry is horrible.

1997
02:53:58,387 --> 02:54:03,387
And yeah, I had many people come up to me and say, oh, I was so – people were like,
oh, I've hated you for years.

1998
02:54:03,387 --> 02:54:05,387
But then I realized, oh, why?

1999
02:54:05,387 --> 02:54:07,387
And then I was like, oh, I don't have any reason.

2000
02:54:07,387 --> 02:54:13,387
I was like, actually, you are the only person telling me the truth for years.

2001
02:54:13,387 --> 02:54:15,387
I've heard like weird stuff.

2002
02:54:15,387 --> 02:54:18,387
I think you can find – if you go to – there's like a link where I have everything.

2003
02:54:18,387 --> 02:54:22,387
I think where I did the Whale Pool interview, it starts with like two or three
people saying that.

2004
02:54:22,387 --> 02:54:31,387
And then also in the Lightning thing, people were saying, oh, yeah, at first people
are like, oh, I think you – I hate you and I think you should die.

2005
02:54:31,387 --> 02:54:33,387
And then they're like, oh, wait.

2006
02:54:33,387 --> 02:54:35,387
Oh, now I think you're the best.

2007
02:54:36,387 --> 02:54:40,387
So I mean do you think people think I'm exaggerating?

2008
02:54:40,387 --> 02:54:47,387
I think it has a lot to do and I'm guilty of the same sin to an extent, like the
tweeting style.

2009
02:54:47,387 --> 02:54:49,387
I know. I think that's it too.

2010
02:54:49,387 --> 02:54:52,387
But I don't think people – I think it doesn't – this is partially my fault.

2011
02:54:52,387 --> 02:55:01,387
Like I like to tweet in like a very deadpan kind of like – my tweets are really like
– all of them are like a joke really.

2012
02:55:01,387 --> 02:55:04,013
I can see people reading them and just being like –

2013
02:55:04,013 --> 02:55:11,013
this guy is like a rude person or like a kind of – I don't think I'm actually that
rude.

2014
02:55:11,013 --> 02:55:16,013
That's what a lot of people think, that you hate Bitcoin or that you're bitter.

2015
02:55:16,013 --> 02:55:18,013
You come across as bitter sometimes.

2016
02:55:18,013 --> 02:55:22,013
Yeah, I know. That's funny. And I actually – I hate coming across as bitter. I don't
like that.

2017
02:55:23,013 --> 02:55:30,013
And so I think it's my fault because what I'm trying to come off as kind of like
isn't this stupid.

2018
02:55:30,013 --> 02:55:37,013
Like it's very – a lot of it is very sarcastic. But I think – yeah, I think Robin
Linus also said that or something.

2019
02:55:37,013 --> 02:55:41,013
I don't remember if it was him. Maybe I'm giving him a fake quote now.

2020
02:55:41,013 --> 02:55:50,013
But someone told me like they read all my tweets and they just hated me so much and
then they met me in person.

2021
02:55:50,013 --> 02:56:00,013
And then they were like, oh, I get it now. Like all of these tweets are just like –
they're just like a joke.

2022
02:56:00,013 --> 02:56:10,013
They're just like Paul just like kind of – but yeah, I don't know if the style can
be fixed at this point.

2023
02:56:10,013 --> 02:56:15,013
Maybe it's too late in the game to change it now. But I think that's definitely
true.

2024
02:56:15,013 --> 02:56:22,013
About the purity test, like we have all seen examples or at least in America.

2025
02:56:22,013 --> 02:56:28,013
I guess it's – I suppose it depends on what generation you are and what age you are
and where you live and stuff like that.

2026
02:56:28,013 --> 02:56:40,013
But we have seen – everyone in America has seen like a cancel culture, go too far
where you had like certain people were definitely like –

2027
02:56:41,013 --> 02:56:47,013
like Bill Cosby was like drugging people and like raping them or something
allegedly.

2028
02:56:47,013 --> 02:56:53,013
I mean I think Ruben also and Harvey Weinstein. These are like bad people.

2029
02:56:53,013 --> 02:56:59,013
But then slowly people started getting acute and then it was like, oh, this person –
we were invited to the same house party in LA.

2030
02:56:59,013 --> 02:57:04,013
And the person hit on me while they were drunk and that's now like the same thing.

2031
02:57:04,013 --> 02:57:12,013
There are cases where the people have texted saying I'm going to invent – I'm going
to fabricate a bunch of fake stuff to ruin this person's life.

2032
02:57:12,013 --> 02:57:20,013
So we've all seen situations where the kind of like the standard kind of gets pushed
well beyond.

2033
02:57:20,013 --> 02:57:24,013
And a second example would be like a social justice warrior type thing.

2034
02:57:25,013 --> 02:57:36,013
This was a phenomenon. I mean it still is, but it was like what – it's characterized
by kicking people out and saying, oh, these people are the worst.

2035
02:57:36,013 --> 02:57:42,013
But then eventually if you last long enough, you will eventually be kicked out.

2036
02:57:42,013 --> 02:57:48,013
You will eventually be canceled. So they will come. The mob will come for you.

2037
02:57:49,013 --> 02:57:59,013
They did that three-body problem as the scene of the cultural – the communist
cultural revolution in China and this mob.

2038
02:57:59,013 --> 02:58:01,013
That's a popular book nowadays.

2039
02:58:01,013 --> 02:58:07,013
The French Revolution also. They say, oh, we just have the purges. We just have to
kill all these people.

2040
02:58:07,013 --> 02:58:11,013
But then eventually you get purged. That's the thing.

2041
02:58:11,013 --> 02:58:17,013
So this is the thing to keep in mind about the purity test is we've all seen it
before.

2042
02:58:17,013 --> 02:58:20,013
I think. Most Bitcoiners have even.

2043
02:58:20,013 --> 02:58:29,013
Because the Bitcoin cohort is like – it's kind of like this libertarian – they would
be like libertarian, like 40-year-old.

2044
02:58:29,013 --> 02:58:33,013
That's like my stereotype, American 40-year-old libertarian.

2045
02:58:33,013 --> 02:58:37,013
I'm talking like the OG Bitcoin cohort.

2046
02:58:38,013 --> 02:58:50,013
And you have seen like the mob justice and it goes too far and then you have – it
just keeps going until it stops.

2047
02:58:50,013 --> 02:58:52,013
But that's what we – that's where we are though.

2048
02:58:52,013 --> 02:58:59,013
We're just kicking people out for the crime of interviewing the wrong person and
it's like how can you – and then it's like, yeah.

2049
02:58:59,013 --> 02:59:03,013
Instead, what you have to do is go with Swan or something, which is like –

2050
02:59:04,013 --> 02:59:10,013
Or go with whatever, Samson Mao or something. These are the most pure.

2051
02:59:10,013 --> 02:59:21,013
Or Jimmy, Decred Jimmy, who was originally – all these people were originally like
altcoin people or they sell a different product that is not Bitcoin.

2052
02:59:21,013 --> 02:59:24,013
And these are like the worst people actually.

2053
02:59:24,013 --> 02:59:27,013
No, you should go to Max Keiser in El Salvador and apologize.

2054
02:59:27,013 --> 02:59:29,013
Yeah.

2055
02:59:29,013 --> 02:59:33,013
I did MaxCoin and StartCoin and Dash on the Keiser report.

2056
02:59:33,013 --> 02:59:41,013
Max Keiser, I think you and I have discussed this about like his show on Russian
Today in like 2012 was like the only thing that mentioned Bitcoin like on the whole
internet.

2057
02:59:41,013 --> 02:59:44,013
And it was like, wow. It was so incredible.

2058
02:59:44,013 --> 02:59:51,013
But yeah, then he did MaxCoin and he was like, it's better because he has SHA-3
instead of SHA-2.

2059
02:59:51,013 --> 02:59:53,013
That means better.

2060
02:59:53,013 --> 03:00:00,013
And then he was like, there's no way that Russia is going to invade Ukraine. That's
propaganda.

2061
03:00:00,013 --> 03:00:03,013
That's when I lost my respect for him because –

2062
03:00:03,013 --> 03:00:05,013
Then they just went back –

2063
03:00:05,013 --> 03:00:09,013
I was at the airport. I was seeing Ukrainians coming into my country and I was like,
what's happening?

2064
03:00:09,013 --> 03:00:13,013
And they had no documents. It was all so dramatic.

2065
03:00:13,013 --> 03:00:19,013
And then I looked at my phone and I saw this tweet by Max Keiser like, there's no
war in Ukraine.

2066
03:00:19,013 --> 03:00:21,013
It's all upside up. It's propaganda by the West.

2067
03:00:22,013 --> 03:00:25,013
It's all the West. It's the CIA. They're always up to something.

2068
03:00:25,013 --> 03:00:31,013
And so then – but they did admit that – I got to hand it to them.

2069
03:00:31,013 --> 03:00:37,013
It's not easy to deal with something like that where they had to like – and they
did.

2070
03:00:37,013 --> 03:00:45,013
I think they cut the RT association and then they deleted the tweets, which is – I
think it's OK.

2071
03:00:45,013 --> 03:00:48,013
I mean you could – there's two ways to delete a tweet.

2072
03:00:48,013 --> 03:00:53,013
There's like, oh, I never said that, and then you delete it and you lie to everyone.

2073
03:00:53,013 --> 03:00:57,013
But then they were kind of like, oh, yeah, we were wrong about that.

2074
03:00:57,013 --> 03:01:00,013
So we just don't want it up there because it was –

2075
03:01:00,013 --> 03:01:02,013
Did that happen?

2076
03:01:02,013 --> 03:01:05,013
Yeah, I think they – no, they deleted – there was someone kept track of like –

2077
03:01:05,013 --> 03:01:08,013
because they had made so many tweets saying, oh, this is laughable that –

2078
03:01:08,013 --> 03:01:14,013
so someone made like even like an image or a site where there was like, here are the
146 tweets deleted by –

2079
03:01:14,013 --> 03:01:16,013
but yeah, it's not really a big deal.

2080
03:01:16,013 --> 03:01:20,013
I still think they're pretty great, but they are just – they're very amped up.

2081
03:01:20,013 --> 03:01:22,013
They're very excited.

2082
03:01:22,013 --> 03:01:26,013
And then, yeah, they're part of this purity thing where they're like, oh, yeah, like
–

2083
03:01:26,013 --> 03:01:29,013
see, this is the annoying thing, which is as you've just brought up.

2084
03:01:29,013 --> 03:01:36,013
The biggest purity test people are the people who actually themselves, they were
altcoiners in –

2085
03:01:36,013 --> 03:01:38,013
at a more crucial time.

2086
03:01:38,013 --> 03:01:46,013
So like it was a bigger betrayal back then to do MaxCoin in like 2013 than now.

2087
03:01:46,013 --> 03:01:51,013
Now it's not as threatening at all because no one would take it seriously.

2088
03:01:51,013 --> 03:02:02,013
So – but then those people feel guilty about their own past sins and their own past
stupidity and spinelessness.

2089
03:02:02,013 --> 03:02:07,013
And then they decide, oh, now we're going to be purity tests.

2090
03:02:07,013 --> 03:02:16,013
And that's what's annoying is there are people who, again, who like then – people
like me, I was never a supporter of any altcoin.

2091
03:02:16,013 --> 03:02:19,013
And I was not a Bitcoin Cash supporter and I was not a large blocker.

2092
03:02:19,013 --> 03:02:21,013
I won large blocker.

2093
03:02:21,013 --> 03:02:28,013
But now that – but after being loyal to Bitcoin the whole time, now I want to say,
oh, by the way, there are all these derangements.

2094
03:02:28,013 --> 03:02:29,013
There's all these problems.

2095
03:02:29,013 --> 03:02:32,013
Then people be like, oh, yeah, it's a Truthcoin.

2096
03:02:32,013 --> 03:02:34,013
It must be an altcoin or whatever else.

2097
03:02:34,013 --> 03:02:36,013
And yeah, you think like whatever.

2098
03:02:36,013 --> 03:02:40,013
So that's the annoying thing is the purity people are actually the sinners.

2099
03:02:40,013 --> 03:02:43,013
They are the worst of the worst often.

2100
03:02:43,013 --> 03:02:47,013
And then there's a lot of well-meaning people get swept up into it.

2101
03:02:47,013 --> 03:02:56,013
And of course people think like, well, it's sad because they get swept up into
altcoin world and they think –

2102
03:02:56,013 --> 03:03:05,013
well, first they're a fiat only and then something opens the door to crypto and they
become very open-minded.

2103
03:03:05,013 --> 03:03:12,013
And they think, wow, everything is going to be – tokenize everything and everything
will be decentralized.

2104
03:03:12,013 --> 03:03:17,013
And then William Mugayar and all these funny people, business blockchain and all
this weird stuff will happen.

2105
03:03:17,013 --> 03:03:21,013
And they try all these altcoins and they don't work and they're down 99 percent.

2106
03:03:21,013 --> 03:03:23,013
And then they become very closed-minded.

2107
03:03:23,013 --> 03:03:25,013
They say I was open-minded before.

2108
03:03:25,013 --> 03:03:27,013
It didn't work.

2109
03:03:27,013 --> 03:03:29,013
Bitcoin is the only thing.

2110
03:03:29,013 --> 03:03:30,013
Bitcoin is perfect.

2111
03:03:30,013 --> 03:03:32,013
Bitcoin is sacred.

2112
03:03:32,013 --> 03:03:34,013
And they're kind of wrong both times.

2113
03:03:34,013 --> 03:03:36,013
But you know what?

2114
03:03:36,013 --> 03:03:45,013
Some of the same stuff that was being said about Bitcoin when it turned 10 years old
can be said about Litecoin today with the exception of just the mysterious founder.

2115
03:03:45,013 --> 03:03:47,013
You have the persistence.

2116
03:03:47,013 --> 03:03:50,013
You have the fact that it's still proof of work.

2117
03:03:50,013 --> 03:03:52,013
Every coin was minted fairly.

2118
03:03:52,013 --> 03:03:54,013
The launch was fair.

2119
03:03:54,013 --> 03:03:56,013
It's like honest money.

2120
03:03:56,013 --> 03:04:00,013
It's very hard for you to argue with a straight face that Litecoin is horrible.

2121
03:04:00,013 --> 03:04:04,013
You can say the same about Dogecoin, ironically, like something that started out as
a joke.

2122
03:04:04,013 --> 03:04:06,013
It was abandoned by the founders.

2123
03:04:06,013 --> 03:04:09,013
It was a literal joke for many years.

2124
03:04:09,013 --> 03:04:14,013
And then Elon Musk decided to pick it up and sort of troll Bitcoiners with it.

2125
03:04:14,013 --> 03:04:16,013
That's also pretty legit.

2126
03:04:16,013 --> 03:04:22,013
It's also hard to argue against Ethereum after it's been around for 10 years and say
that it's going to fail.

2127
03:04:22,013 --> 03:04:25,013
It's just – just give it more time.

2128
03:04:25,013 --> 03:04:31,013
Like it's only a matter of time until someone like Saifedean is going to be proven
wrong about Ethereum.

2129
03:04:31,013 --> 03:04:33,013
Also Zcash.

2130
03:04:33,013 --> 03:04:40,013
That one was supposed to be a soft fork on Bitcoin, which never happened because of
the trusted setup.

2131
03:04:40,013 --> 03:04:45,013
And then they figured out a way to remove the trusted setup, but Bitcoiners stopped
caring.

2132
03:04:46,013 --> 03:04:53,013
First of all, I'd just like to point out that the earlier argument about the
printer, that would apply to any of these currencies.

2133
03:04:53,013 --> 03:05:07,013
But really the reason – yeah, people misdiagnosed why – or second decide is that,
okay, this is a perfect example of the Ethereum bashing, which is that –

2134
03:05:07,013 --> 03:05:15,013
I mentioned before about how it's different – it was different in 2015 than today,
which is what you've also re-mentioned.

2135
03:05:15,013 --> 03:05:20,013
But yeah, Atomback used to say – I love Atomback.

2136
03:05:20,013 --> 03:05:26,013
He used to say in 2015 he used to be like, oh, it's an 80% pre-mine for Ethereum.

2137
03:05:26,013 --> 03:05:29,013
And he keeps saying that.

2138
03:05:29,013 --> 03:05:31,013
But it's like that does not matter anymore.

2139
03:05:32,013 --> 03:05:36,013
I remember he was still saying that at least in the end of 2024.

2140
03:05:36,013 --> 03:05:39,013
We did our spaces together.

2141
03:05:39,013 --> 03:05:45,013
And it was like 19 million Bitcoin had been mined.

2142
03:05:45,013 --> 03:05:55,013
So someone who shows up today, if they were in a coma or they had just been born,
it's all pre-mined to them.

2143
03:05:55,013 --> 03:06:00,013
It's not like the US dollar is like a 99.999% pre-mine.

2144
03:06:01,013 --> 03:06:06,013
No, but the point is that it was issued in a way that they think is not fair.

2145
03:06:06,013 --> 03:06:14,013
Right, but the issue is – like that question has been litigated now over 10 years.

2146
03:06:14,013 --> 03:06:16,013
Like it's over.

2147
03:06:16,013 --> 03:06:17,013
It is what it is.

2148
03:06:18,013 --> 03:06:31,013
It's like they – people have had plenty of time to change their mind about that or
to accept or reject it.

2149
03:06:31,013 --> 03:06:42,013
But now the fact that it was fair 10 years ago, I mean that does give it some
legitimacy or illegitimacy.

2150
03:06:42,013 --> 03:06:45,013
But really like that fades out like very, very quickly.

2151
03:06:45,013 --> 03:06:46,013
You know what I mean?

2152
03:06:46,013 --> 03:06:53,013
Like no one would – I don't think anyone would say – like this is why we have like
possession is nine-tenths of the law.

2153
03:06:53,013 --> 03:06:54,013
You know what I mean?

2154
03:06:54,013 --> 03:06:57,013
It's like really hard to switch and say, oh, here's this.

2155
03:06:57,013 --> 03:07:01,013
So it mattered a lot in 2015 when this was a brand-new option.

2156
03:07:01,013 --> 03:07:04,013
You could say, oh, do I want to invest in Ethereum?

2157
03:07:04,013 --> 03:07:06,013
Do I want to stick with Bitcoin?

2158
03:07:06,013 --> 03:07:08,013
Oh, it's an 80% pre-mine.

2159
03:07:08,013 --> 03:07:19,013
So, yeah, the implication is – see, the pre-mine – the implication – see, whether or
not it's fair, life famously isn't fair, right?

2160
03:07:19,013 --> 03:07:22,013
So a lot of people – fair this versus fair that.

2161
03:07:22,013 --> 03:07:24,013
And a lot of people have very different ideas on justice.

2162
03:07:24,013 --> 03:07:31,013
Oh, yeah, this is the way you're going to take this from me and what about – oh, and
my ancestors took this from blah, blah, blah and whatever.

2163
03:07:31,013 --> 03:07:37,013
So that's kind of a messy question which is why we have the possession is
nine-tenths of the law kind of question.

2164
03:07:37,013 --> 03:07:40,013
And innocent until proven guilty, stuff like that.

2165
03:07:40,013 --> 03:07:46,013
Some people have argued that that pointlessly enshrines the status quo.

2166
03:07:46,013 --> 03:07:48,013
Many people have argued this.

2167
03:07:48,013 --> 03:07:51,013
This was the – who was that guy?

2168
03:07:51,013 --> 03:07:53,013
Bentham or whatever.

2169
03:07:53,013 --> 03:07:55,013
I'm kind of mixing up all my names now.

2170
03:07:55,013 --> 03:07:59,013
But the point is we go back to Ethereum.

2171
03:08:00,013 --> 03:08:06,013
The implication of the 80% pre-mine is that this is not a serious project, that the
founders are doing it only to enrich themselves.

2172
03:08:06,013 --> 03:08:12,013
But, yeah, like that – none of that – that is a core part of the logic of that.

2173
03:08:12,013 --> 03:08:23,013
But that doesn't apply when you have – when it's 10 years later and there have been
– it has changed hands millions and millions and millions of times.

2174
03:08:24,013 --> 03:08:31,013
So I just don't think that that's important.

2175
03:08:31,013 --> 03:08:34,013
I don't know. There was something else I was going to say, but I forgot what it was.

2176
03:08:34,013 --> 03:08:38,013
It's fine because I think we have bigger fish to fry here.

2177
03:08:38,013 --> 03:08:50,013
There's the SegWit discount as one of your medium derangements, but I think it's a
very big one because for a long time people had the wrong conception or opinion of
what SegWit does.

2178
03:08:50,013 --> 03:08:51,013
Many of them still do.

2179
03:08:51,013 --> 03:08:56,013
I would go to Bitcoin meetups, and I would go to Miami BitDevs.

2180
03:08:56,013 --> 03:09:02,013
I hate to call out, but actually I think the Miami BitDevs is really good, and the
Miami scene is very good.

2181
03:09:02,013 --> 03:09:03,013
It's very serious.

2182
03:09:03,013 --> 03:09:15,013
We had Chris DeRose and Josh Hanseth originally from that area and from that Bitcoin
meetup, and then a lot of serious people have moved to Miami.

2183
03:09:16,013 --> 03:09:29,013
Even though I've been to BitDevs around New York, San Francisco, Austin, Texas,
Chicago even, but many over the years.

2184
03:09:29,013 --> 03:09:34,013
But I think the Miami one is pretty good, but I would go and people would just say,
what?

2185
03:09:34,013 --> 03:09:36,013
And I would say, yeah, that's not true at all.

2186
03:09:36,013 --> 03:09:38,013
It's just a flat lay of myths.

2187
03:09:38,013 --> 03:09:41,013
And then people would be like, wow, I had no idea.

2188
03:09:41,013 --> 03:09:44,013
What was the myth? Because we haven't mentioned specifically.

2189
03:09:44,013 --> 03:09:52,013
The idea is that there's this 4X number with SegWit where there's one megabyte here
and four megabytes here.

2190
03:09:52,013 --> 03:10:00,013
The block size is kind of confusing to people, and they think, oh, if I use SegWit
transactions, I pay less fees because I get a discount.

2191
03:10:00,013 --> 03:10:10,013
And they think that must mean that we're like packing the transaction in a more
efficient way, and we use fewer bytes because of the magic of SegWit.

2192
03:10:10,013 --> 03:10:13,013
But that is completely a myth.

2193
03:10:13,013 --> 03:10:23,013
What instead happened is that the witness is stored in extension block, a separate
place, which is a mandatory hard fork block size increase.

2194
03:10:23,013 --> 03:10:27,013
It's not really a hard fork, but it's in the sense of being mandatory as a hard
fork.

2195
03:10:27,013 --> 03:10:32,013
It's a kind of mandatory extension block is what I would sort of instead said.

2196
03:10:32,013 --> 03:10:41,013
But you are required in order to use – in order to receive money from anything
that's passed through SegWit transaction.

2197
03:10:41,013 --> 03:10:46,013
This is a mandatory block size increase de facto.

2198
03:10:46,013 --> 03:10:51,013
I guess this is also why the waters were muddied in terms of what a soft fork means.

2199
03:10:51,013 --> 03:10:57,013
Yeah, SegWit is an extremely unusual soft fork, very, very, very unusual.

2200
03:10:57,013 --> 03:11:05,013
And I think it kind of ruined the soft fork for all the little – the innocent little
op-nop soft forks are just so quaint and harmless.

2201
03:11:05,013 --> 03:11:09,013
But this one was a mandatory block size increase from one to four megabytes.

2202
03:11:09,013 --> 03:11:12,013
So what they did is they gave it the discount.

2203
03:11:12,013 --> 03:11:23,013
The discount was artificially inserted with the deliberate intent of trying to
discourage people from bloating the UTXO set.

2204
03:11:23,013 --> 03:11:27,013
So I don't know. The details are kind of maybe confusing.

2205
03:11:27,013 --> 03:11:43,013
But the – like there was some logic to it about like what would it have to take to –
if we had past patterns prevailed, then maybe there would be a 2.3 block size
increase.

2206
03:11:43,013 --> 03:11:53,013
And this was related to at the block size – at the time of the block size debate,
people wanted to – people threw around having the two megabyte block size increase.

2207
03:11:53,013 --> 03:11:57,013
So then this was like a political thing, and it's kind of confusing.

2208
03:11:57,013 --> 03:12:02,013
So I'm not sure the best way to just repeat the technical thing of what happens.

2209
03:12:02,013 --> 03:12:07,013
The SegWit transactions do not use fewer bytes in physical space.

2210
03:12:07,013 --> 03:12:10,013
And in fact, in some cases, they use many more.

2211
03:12:10,013 --> 03:12:14,013
And in most cases, they use like maybe like one more byte.

2212
03:12:15,013 --> 03:12:31,013
They're actually less efficient, but the old pre-SegWit transactions have to stay in
the original one megabyte block, whereas the SegWit transactions are allowed to
place the signature, which is a very high percentage of the transaction.

2213
03:12:31,013 --> 03:12:35,013
If you imagine like a check or something, you're filling out a check.

2214
03:12:35,013 --> 03:12:42,013
The signature – in the Bitcoin world, the signature takes up like one-third of the
ink or one-third of the page or something.

2215
03:12:42,013 --> 03:12:49,013
That is an oversimplification because when there's many inputs, it would be bigger
and other stuff would happen.

2216
03:12:49,013 --> 03:13:01,013
But the signature can be stored in a different part, and that is what they do is
they have like – it's kind of like when you check your bag in an airport.

2217
03:13:02,013 --> 03:13:03,013
You check the giant bag.

2218
03:13:03,013 --> 03:13:13,013
They just stack all those on top of each other in the lower part, and then you sit
and you take your carry-on and you sit in the upper part of the plane.

2219
03:13:13,013 --> 03:13:15,013
That's a beautiful way to describe it.

2220
03:13:15,013 --> 03:13:20,013
Yeah, and the carry-on, it always has no heat because you can always tell when you
go up.

2221
03:13:20,013 --> 03:13:32,013
When you're 30,000 feet, it's always like literally the outside air temperature is
like negative 60 degrees Fahrenheit air, which must be very similar Celsius, super,
super cold.

2222
03:13:32,013 --> 03:13:45,013
And then, yeah, when you get like – depending on how quickly you get the bags, but
you could get it before and my bag would be like freezing cold because it was – they
don't heat the lower part where there's no humans.

2223
03:13:45,013 --> 03:13:49,013
But yeah, that's what they did, and so there's no physics trick making it cheaper.

2224
03:13:49,013 --> 03:14:07,013
The SegWit discount is a political decision to incentivize cleaning up UTXO bloat
because when you use the signature, you are spending an old UTXO, whereas when you
create one, there's no signature there.

2225
03:14:07,013 --> 03:14:10,013
The signature will happen in the future when you spend that.

2226
03:14:11,013 --> 03:14:28,013
So that was seen as – but yeah, but the myth is that the transactions themselves,
thanks to magic technological progress or innovation or wizardry, said the
transactions themselves are actually 20% smaller or something, and that's not true
at all.

2227
03:14:28,013 --> 03:14:40,013
But amazingly, it's basically believed by everyone, and you have to point it out to
them that it's not true, and then eventually they – you can show them.

2228
03:14:40,013 --> 03:14:47,013
Once I showed someone, there's a block explorer called Yogh.io.

2229
03:14:47,013 --> 03:14:55,013
I don't know if it still works, but it's a cool block explorer because you can see
all the bytes on the blockchain, which is great, and I think it's fantastic and I
wish.

2230
03:14:55,013 --> 03:15:04,013
At one point, I had like a – we tried to have like a LayerTwo Labs-like version or
something, but it was just like it never got off the ground.

2231
03:15:04,013 --> 03:15:09,013
But it's a super cool block explorer, but you could show people like, no, here are
all the bytes.

2232
03:15:09,013 --> 03:15:13,013
You could count them with your finger, and people just wouldn't believe this.

2233
03:15:14,013 --> 03:15:28,013
So it definitely is a pretty big derangement because it's a thing that just like for
whatever reason everyone believes, but no one ever got around to clarifying that it
wasn't true.

2234
03:15:28,013 --> 03:15:30,013
You actually have some names.

2235
03:15:30,013 --> 03:15:35,013
Yeah, I named some people because now everyone's going to be like, oh, I always
believed that or whatever.

2236
03:15:35,013 --> 03:15:39,013
And I remember years and years going by, and I was like, am I going crazy?

2237
03:15:39,013 --> 03:15:41,013
Like am I – have I been drugged or something?

2238
03:15:41,013 --> 03:15:45,013
Like why is everyone still saying this wrong thing?

2239
03:15:45,013 --> 03:15:53,013
And they were like, yeah, because SegWit was created by the geniuses, and so it must
have magic shrinking transactions.

2240
03:15:55,013 --> 03:16:04,013
This also says a lot about the culture back then because people would activate this
and see it like the revenge against the big blockers maybe.

2241
03:16:04,013 --> 03:16:06,013
They rushed to activate it.

2242
03:16:06,013 --> 03:16:07,013
They're like, it's perfect.

2243
03:16:07,013 --> 03:16:10,013
SegWit is the perfect thing, and look how great it is.

2244
03:16:10,013 --> 03:16:13,013
But then it doesn't actually do some of the things they think it did.

2245
03:16:16,013 --> 03:16:18,013
Yeah, but it was tested on Litecoin.

2246
03:16:18,013 --> 03:16:22,013
Like there was an actual process to it, but it only took a few months.

2247
03:16:23,013 --> 03:16:29,013
I do believe that after the Ordinal situation, there are some people who are saying
we should deactivate SegWit.

2248
03:16:31,013 --> 03:16:36,013
Yeah, or I think people are very confused about the discount still.

2249
03:16:36,013 --> 03:16:39,013
And so various people have like caught themselves.

2250
03:16:39,013 --> 03:16:43,013
There's like a cycle of arguments, and it doesn't really make much of a difference
either way.

2251
03:16:44,013 --> 03:16:56,013
But people were saying stuff like, okay, so Udi and whatever, Eric Wall, they named
themselves the Taproot Wizards because they were going to correctly take advantage
of everyone's stupidity.

2252
03:16:56,013 --> 03:17:02,013
Oh, and this is such a beautiful segue into the next topic that I was going to
propose, which is Taproot itself.

2253
03:17:02,013 --> 03:17:07,013
And they said, we're just going to name ourselves Taproot Wizards as if this is a
game.

2254
03:17:08,013 --> 03:17:14,013
Yeah, and they said, we're just going to name ourselves Taproot Wizards as if this
has anything to do with Taproot.

2255
03:17:14,013 --> 03:17:16,013
It really has nothing to do with Taproot.

2256
03:17:18,013 --> 03:17:24,013
But they made use of like, okay, so like there's Opera Churn, and then there's this
thing of the Taproot Annex.

2257
03:17:24,013 --> 03:17:30,013
And so it's slightly easier to – this is like extremely in-the-weeds nuanced type of
a thing.

2258
03:17:30,013 --> 03:17:41,013
But basically, like I was trying to say before, if you have your thing be a
signature, it can live in the discounted world.

2259
03:17:41,013 --> 03:17:56,013
And this is part of what we were talking about before with Opera Churn, which is
Opera Churn stays in the old world and is actually more expensive than what some
people were doing experimentally with SegWit and Taproot.

2260
03:17:56,013 --> 03:18:03,013
They were saying, oh, I can make a really big signature, and it could be four
megabytes, and it could be a picture of a wizard.

2261
03:18:05,013 --> 03:18:08,013
And so they decided to name themselves Taproot Wizards.

2262
03:18:08,013 --> 03:18:18,013
So then when Ordinals happened, everyone blamed Taproot, which I think is like sort
of ingenious, at least from like a manipulative point of view.

2263
03:18:18,013 --> 03:18:22,013
It was a very successful trick.

2264
03:18:22,013 --> 03:18:28,013
And the reason it worked is because everyone didn't know what they were talking
about anyway, so they might as well be tricked one way or the other.

2265
03:18:28,013 --> 03:18:30,013
It didn't really make much of a difference.

2266
03:18:30,013 --> 03:18:32,013
So then they thought, okay, this is Taproot.

2267
03:18:32,013 --> 03:18:34,013
We got to deactivate Taproot.

2268
03:18:34,013 --> 03:18:37,013
And then people were like, wait, this is actually the SegWit discount.

2269
03:18:37,013 --> 03:18:40,013
So we got to – okay, we got to deactivate SegWit.

2270
03:18:40,013 --> 03:18:47,013
And the whole thing is a circus anyway because the Ordinals are – the truth is the
Ordinals are a good thing.

2271
03:18:48,013 --> 03:18:56,013
The – like I don't know what to say about the SegWit discount.

2272
03:18:56,013 --> 03:19:00,013
In retrospect, we probably shouldn't have done it because it was so confusing and
poorly understood.

2273
03:19:00,013 --> 03:19:03,013
It was clear that no one really understood it.

2274
03:19:03,013 --> 03:19:09,013
I think Jihan referred to it as unfairly cheap or something like an accounting
trick.

2275
03:19:10,013 --> 03:19:21,013
Then he was being made fun of, but actually he was probably more right than –
because remember, everyone was thinking, oh, the SegWit transactions are smaller.

2276
03:19:21,013 --> 03:19:36,013
So they were thinking Jihan is complaining about that, but actually Jihan was more
correct when he said they were unfairly cheap because it's actually the same amount
of bytes or more to do the same transaction.

2277
03:19:37,013 --> 03:19:43,013
And yet it consumes a smaller percentage of the block by the block weight
calculation.

2278
03:19:43,013 --> 03:19:51,013
So yeah, like they definitely got a lot of things wrong, but they didn't get
everything wrong.

2279
03:19:51,013 --> 03:19:55,013
And so that's – but of course people are so quick to jump on them whenever they said
anything.

2280
03:19:58,013 --> 03:20:03,013
But yeah, I don't think – and probably in retrospect just because no one understood
it, we probably shouldn't have done the –

2281
03:20:03,065 --> 03:20:15,065
witness discount. And then in retrospect, we shouldn't have done SegWit or Taproot,
which is the next thing you wanted to ask about, which is that – because these are
just to serve the Lightning Network.

2282
03:20:15,065 --> 03:20:17,065
You collect useless in your article.

2283
03:20:17,065 --> 03:20:28,065
Yeah. Well, of course that's a little hyperbolic, but basically you could look at –
like you could look at graphs of like when were other soft forks adopted by real
users.

2284
03:20:29,065 --> 03:20:39,065
So you could look at when was Pagescript hash adopted, even though that is very
niche. That's not the same as people using it to transact every day.

2285
03:20:39,065 --> 03:20:47,065
But then you could look at SegWit. I don't remember. It's been now a few years since
I first looked it up and a few months since I put the article.

2286
03:20:48,065 --> 03:21:01,065
But there was something like after the first – I don't remember. I don't remember
the exact numbers, but you can look them up and you can see them probably in the
article that I wrote in July and many months ago.

2287
03:21:02,065 --> 03:21:13,065
But it's something like three months after SegWit activated, it had like 38 percent.
And then like a year later, it had like 80 percent or something like that of all the
new transactions were actually using it.

2288
03:21:13,065 --> 03:21:22,065
And then for Taproot, it's like 0.01 percent, like flatline for much more than a
year.

2289
03:21:22,065 --> 03:21:35,065
And I don't know what it is now, and I don't know if someone could look that up, but
that it has – people have – that's the thing that we spent all of the Bitcoin dev
mailing list time on.

2290
03:21:36,065 --> 03:21:51,065
That's the one soft fork we got in the past like eight years. It's something that no
one is using, and it exists to support Lightning, which doesn't work, and no one
will use Lightning in the future.

2291
03:21:52,065 --> 03:22:01,065
So it's a waste of time. And it is also like it didn't have everyone – oh, it's
going to have Schnorr signature aggregation, which would actually be useful.

2292
03:22:01,065 --> 03:22:09,065
And that would make it so that a more private transaction actually does consume
fewer bytes and is therefore cheaper on its merit.

2293
03:22:11,065 --> 03:22:17,065
But it didn't even have that feature. That was the big promise feature, the Schnorr
signature aggregation.

2294
03:22:18,065 --> 03:22:24,065
But that feature is nowhere to be seen. It was never added, and they were like, oh,
we'll add it later.

2295
03:22:26,065 --> 03:22:28,065
But we still don't have it.

2296
03:22:28,065 --> 03:22:33,065
I remember reading a blog post that was trying to explain or rationalize what's
happening.

2297
03:22:33,065 --> 03:22:46,065
They said it's just a partial – so the whole narrative about Taproot before it was
called Taproot was that we should switch to the Schnorr signatures because they're
more efficient.

2298
03:22:46,065 --> 03:22:50,065
And Satoshi could not use them because there was some patent going on.

2299
03:22:51,065 --> 03:22:55,065
And by the time he launched Bitcoin, the patent expired.

2300
03:22:55,065 --> 03:23:03,065
And we should look into that and rewrite the whole Bitcoin code using Schnorr
signatures because they're so much better.

2301
03:23:03,065 --> 03:23:07,065
And there were lots of technical presentations with advantages and percentages.

2302
03:23:07,065 --> 03:23:14,065
And I think that was most of 2018 and 2019 in terms of conversations about improving
Bitcoin.

2303
03:23:14,065 --> 03:23:22,065
And then we got the Taproot proposal, which is not the Schnorr signature upgrade
that we were promised.

2304
03:23:22,065 --> 03:23:24,065
It's like a partial upgrade.

2305
03:23:24,065 --> 03:23:30,065
It was supposed to have the other component, which is cross-input signature
aggregation or CISA.

2306
03:23:31,065 --> 03:23:36,065
And that one, I think, is a separate BIP. I'm not sure entirely.

2307
03:23:37,065 --> 03:23:47,065
But we never got that one, and it was considered to be sort of not good enough or it
did not justify the engineering effort because the benefits from that were –

2308
03:23:47,065 --> 03:23:52,065
I mean I thought everyone was saying like, oh, we'll just do this now, and then we
can just add this later easily.

2309
03:23:52,065 --> 03:23:54,065
But instead they just gave up on it.

2310
03:23:54,065 --> 03:23:56,065
I'm pretty sure we can look this up.

2311
03:23:57,065 --> 03:24:05,065
I'm pretty sure that Bitcoin Cash just added – they just switched to Schnorr because
they have regular hard forks.

2312
03:24:05,065 --> 03:24:09,065
So this is the benefit of regular – I think the cost is not worth it at all.

2313
03:24:09,065 --> 03:24:23,065
I hate the hard fork, and I think it's very, very, very dangerous and must be used
with extreme nuclear bomb level precision or seriousness.

2314
03:24:23,065 --> 03:24:30,065
But I think that they do the regular hard fork, so they just added Schnorr, and I
think they just added the signature aggregation also.

2315
03:24:30,065 --> 03:24:35,065
I think they just like YOLOed it in like eight months or something, and they just –
so they just did it.

2316
03:24:35,065 --> 03:24:45,065
So that's an advantage there, and we still don't have it, and it's a great – the
cost is a great – and this is always like build is the thing.

2317
03:24:45,065 --> 03:24:51,065
This is like part of the pitch, as I remember it, for Taproot was that, oh, we'll
get Schnorr.

2318
03:24:51,065 --> 03:24:53,065
We'll get stuff. It'll be great.

2319
03:24:53,065 --> 03:24:56,065
Coinjoin will be cheaper than a regular transaction.

2320
03:24:57,065 --> 03:25:02,065
There's some nuance to that, but basically that's an important idea.

2321
03:25:05,065 --> 03:25:12,065
Yeah, all to just amount to nothing basically, and then all these people shilling
it, saying it's the biggest thing ever.

2322
03:25:12,065 --> 03:25:16,065
I don't know if I linked to – did I link to Pierre?

2323
03:25:16,065 --> 03:25:18,065
I saw that live. I was like laughing.

2324
03:25:18,065 --> 03:25:20,065
It's like laughing out loud.

2325
03:25:21,065 --> 03:25:25,065
But there's like people saying it's the coolest thing ever.

2326
03:25:30,065 --> 03:25:31,065
Yeah.

2327
03:25:31,065 --> 03:25:44,065
It was hyped a lot for having extended smart contracting options and also for having
better privacy, which is like a very small use case that most people will not even
touch.

2328
03:25:45,065 --> 03:25:55,065
Like a multi-sig where you can put some conditions, and then instead of seeing all
of the conditions that were part of that contract, you just see the one in which the
coins were spent.

2329
03:25:55,065 --> 03:25:58,065
And that's sort of where you have the privacy.

2330
03:25:58,065 --> 03:26:10,065
A lightning cooperative close looks like a normal transaction, but it's like, okay,
whatever.

2331
03:26:11,065 --> 03:26:16,065
And then it's like, well, yeah, this is all nerd sniping.

2332
03:26:16,065 --> 03:26:27,065
This is just like we have smart people having all their attention consumed, and
meanwhile they neglect normal priorities.

2333
03:26:27,065 --> 03:26:29,065
Oh, and then don't even get me started.

2334
03:26:29,065 --> 03:26:33,065
Did I even put in there about this whole batch 32, batch 32M thing?

2335
03:26:33,065 --> 03:26:34,065
I don't even know if I even put that in.

2336
03:26:34,065 --> 03:26:35,065
No, I don't think so.

2337
03:26:35,065 --> 03:26:37,065
Let me search for batch.

2338
03:26:37,065 --> 03:26:39,065
There is no batch 32.

2339
03:26:40,065 --> 03:26:42,065
Taproot is this new thing.

2340
03:26:42,065 --> 03:26:45,065
God, I have to add it then.

2341
03:26:45,065 --> 03:26:47,065
It's definitely a derangement.

2342
03:26:47,065 --> 03:26:48,065
Oh, my God.

2343
03:26:48,065 --> 03:26:49,065
It's so funny.

2344
03:26:49,065 --> 03:26:54,065
Maybe I don't know if it should be in the Taproot section or if it should be its own
derangement because it's the stupidest thing.

2345
03:26:54,065 --> 03:27:00,065
But of course, as always, with Bitcoin, we can never have big privacy.

2346
03:27:00,065 --> 03:27:05,065
We can't have ZK-SNARK privacy L2, and we can't have scaling for 8 billion people.

2347
03:27:05,065 --> 03:27:08,065
But we can always have – what's the one thing we can always have?

2348
03:27:08,065 --> 03:27:10,065
A new address format.

2349
03:27:10,065 --> 03:27:13,065
So we always have more address formats than we know what to do with.

2350
03:27:13,065 --> 03:27:17,065
So they were like, well, we'll just have more address formats, batch 32.

2351
03:27:17,065 --> 03:27:21,065
So, of course, because if you want to be nerd sniped, just come up with a new
address format.

2352
03:27:21,065 --> 03:27:27,065
So they invented this thing where it was like the – what is it, like BC1Q?

2353
03:27:27,065 --> 03:27:28,065
Yeah.

2354
03:27:28,065 --> 03:27:33,065
And the version number, you would think – I don't even know where to begin with all
this stuff.

2355
03:27:33,065 --> 03:27:40,065
It's literally like we're being tortured to death by someone, I think, because you
would think, oh, the 1.

2356
03:27:40,065 --> 03:27:45,065
Clearly the version number has to be the 1, the digit 1.

2357
03:27:45,065 --> 03:27:49,065
But it's actually the Q, the Q.

2358
03:27:49,065 --> 03:27:54,065
And if the Q becomes whatever, an R or an S, then you're on version 2 or 3.

2359
03:27:54,065 --> 03:27:55,065
And you're like, is this real?

2360
03:27:55,065 --> 03:27:57,065
Like are you kidding me?

2361
03:27:57,065 --> 03:28:01,065
And then it's like they're longer and they're all lowercase.

2362
03:28:01,065 --> 03:28:06,065
This makes them kind of harder to actually read with your eyeball.

2363
03:28:06,065 --> 03:28:10,065
But the justification is what if you're reading it to someone over the phone?

2364
03:28:10,065 --> 03:28:15,065
Then you have to do somehow capital H, lowercase j.

2365
03:28:15,065 --> 03:28:20,065
Of course, the clever thing would have been to just do like an audio QR code and
just have like something where you just click a button.

2366
03:28:20,065 --> 03:28:28,065
You click a microphone on your end and they click a button and it goes like –
there's some kind of like cool modem, early 90s internet.

2367
03:28:28,065 --> 03:28:33,065
It does some kind of like matrix sound effects, beep, beep, boop, whatever.

2368
03:28:33,065 --> 03:28:36,065
And then that would have actually been cool.

2369
03:28:36,065 --> 03:28:39,065
But instead they decided, oh, the address has to be longer.

2370
03:28:39,065 --> 03:28:49,065
The other horrible thing about the address is the human eye – of course, what you
want to do when you're looking at your address is you want to say, is this the right
address or not?

2371
03:28:49,065 --> 03:28:51,065
Or did it get like swapped out?

2372
03:28:51,065 --> 03:28:55,065
The human eye has the left digit bias.

2373
03:28:55,065 --> 03:29:03,065
You focus on the significant character first, which is like, oh, $9.99 in the store
or $19.99.

2374
03:29:03,065 --> 03:29:10,065
When they're trying to sell you stuff on TV, they would say, buy the – whatever.

2375
03:29:10,065 --> 03:29:14,065
Billy Mays here with the thing by Billy Mays.

2376
03:29:14,065 --> 03:29:15,065
I don't remember.

2377
03:29:15,065 --> 03:29:16,065
What was it?

2378
03:29:16,065 --> 03:29:20,065
The Slanket and the – you know what I'm talking about?

2379
03:29:20,065 --> 03:29:23,065
No, I did not grow up in the US.

2380
03:29:23,065 --> 03:29:24,065
Sorry.

2381
03:29:24,065 --> 03:29:28,065
I thought you watched like the TV got like re-syndicated over there or something.

2382
03:29:28,065 --> 03:29:29,065
Yeah, I bet you couldn't.

2383
03:29:29,065 --> 03:29:31,065
It would be silly for them to advertise to people.

2384
03:29:31,065 --> 03:29:35,065
I don't know if the shipping and handling worked, would have worked in that time.

2385
03:29:35,065 --> 03:29:39,065
But yeah, there's – the point is they have $9.99.

2386
03:29:39,065 --> 03:29:41,065
They have the left digit bias.

2387
03:29:41,065 --> 03:29:43,065
They try to keep it under $20.

2388
03:29:43,065 --> 03:29:49,065
So they say it's $19.99, the product they're trying to sell.

2389
03:29:49,065 --> 03:29:52,065
So the most significant digits are always identical.

2390
03:29:52,065 --> 03:29:55,065
They're always BC1Q.

2391
03:29:55,065 --> 03:29:56,065
So all the addresses are different.

2392
03:29:56,065 --> 03:29:59,065
So your eye actually has to like do extra labor.

2393
03:29:59,065 --> 03:30:05,065
It has to like fight into the interior of the transaction.

2394
03:30:05,065 --> 03:30:08,065
And then it has to like compare and they kind of have to be lined up.

2395
03:30:08,065 --> 03:30:10,065
Like what if the font isn't monospaced font?

2396
03:30:10,065 --> 03:30:11,065
Oh my god.

2397
03:30:11,065 --> 03:30:16,065
Now you have to try to figure out like is this address right?

2398
03:30:16,065 --> 03:30:22,065
You only get one specific use case for using the latest version.

2399
03:30:22,065 --> 03:30:26,065
Yeah, then – which is like this reading it over the phone thing.

2400
03:30:26,065 --> 03:30:30,065
And it's like why do we even have addresses?

2401
03:30:30,065 --> 03:30:32,065
Because we could have had some stuff.

2402
03:30:32,065 --> 03:30:37,065
But then the craziest thing is not only did they do all this stuff,

2403
03:30:37,065 --> 03:30:41,065
they invented their own thing like from scratch.

2404
03:30:41,065 --> 03:30:43,065
But then they ended up screwing it up completely.

2405
03:30:43,065 --> 03:30:45,065
It has like a flaw.

2406
03:30:45,065 --> 03:30:48,065
So now we had to do batch 32M.

2407
03:30:48,065 --> 03:30:50,065
Oh, and then, yeah, like where was any of this documented?

2408
03:30:50,065 --> 03:30:54,065
Like it's all – it's incomprehensible.

2409
03:30:54,065 --> 03:30:57,065
They don't just name them like version 1, version 2, version 3.

2410
03:30:57,065 --> 03:30:59,065
They've got a batch 32 and a batch 32M.

2411
03:30:59,065 --> 03:31:01,065
I mean the whole thing is a circus honestly.

2412
03:31:01,065 --> 03:31:06,065
So I'll just be like kind of really rethought.

2413
03:31:06,065 --> 03:31:14,065
Like it's just – it is crazy engineers like kind of just run amok.

2414
03:31:14,065 --> 03:31:20,065
So, yeah, the batch 32 is just terrible I think.

2415
03:31:20,065 --> 03:31:22,065
And again, look at what we had before.

2416
03:31:22,065 --> 03:31:29,065
We had 1 and then whatever, and then we had 3 for multisig.

2417
03:31:29,065 --> 03:31:32,065
And then for some reason testnet had 2 and 4.

2418
03:31:32,065 --> 03:31:33,065
I think this was a mistake.

2419
03:31:33,065 --> 03:31:35,065
I think the testnet should have had identical.

2420
03:31:35,065 --> 03:31:39,065
It's easier to test if all the stuff is the same, same keys.

2421
03:31:39,065 --> 03:31:46,065
But for whatever reason, testnet had 2, and then the testnet multisig was like a 4.

2422
03:31:46,065 --> 03:31:49,065
And then 5 was the private key.

2423
03:31:49,065 --> 03:31:54,065
But, yeah, why not just say, oh, this starts with a 6 or this starts with an 8

2424
03:31:54,065 --> 03:32:00,065
and just keep the same thing that everyone had gotten used to.

2425
03:32:00,065 --> 03:32:02,065
Like I don't know.

2426
03:32:03,065 --> 03:32:07,065
It has to be BC1 for SegWit.

2427
03:32:07,065 --> 03:32:09,065
Yeah, why start with BC1?

2428
03:32:09,065 --> 03:32:14,065
Why not just start with 1 and cut the Q part also?

2429
03:32:14,065 --> 03:32:16,065
I don't understand it.

2430
03:32:16,065 --> 03:32:17,065
I don't know.

2431
03:32:17,065 --> 03:32:19,065
What is it like in Bitcoin Cash?

2432
03:32:19,065 --> 03:32:24,065
I think they switched to Q addresses or something.

2433
03:32:24,065 --> 03:32:30,065
I don't know, but no one – by now we should have long since adopted 47.

2434
03:32:31,065 --> 03:32:36,065
As Samurai did and other people have done, you get the PayNym.

2435
03:32:36,065 --> 03:32:41,065
You get just one code, and now you don't need to interact.

2436
03:32:41,065 --> 03:32:43,065
And they call you, oh, send me an address.

2437
03:32:43,065 --> 03:32:44,065
Okay, and then I send you the address.

2438
03:32:44,065 --> 03:32:47,065
Meanwhile, they can all be intercepted.

2439
03:32:47,065 --> 03:32:49,065
The communication can be intercepted.

2440
03:32:49,065 --> 03:32:55,065
This is like proof that you have interacted before, whereas instead you can't.

2441
03:32:55,065 --> 03:32:58,065
With Bit47, all you have to do is post your one code,

2442
03:32:58,065 --> 03:33:04,065
which is your permanent friend code, and this is what people are used to when you
say, oh, give me my address.

2443
03:33:04,065 --> 03:33:09,065
What they think of when they think of an address is like an email address or like a
mailing address where it doesn't change.

2444
03:33:09,065 --> 03:33:12,065
Oh, if I want to reach Vlad, this is what I do.

2445
03:33:12,065 --> 03:33:15,065
I use this thing.

2446
03:33:15,065 --> 03:33:27,065
And what those did with Bit47 is they derive – if I get your code, it establishes
like a pipeline between us where we have an infinite list of –

2447
03:33:27,065 --> 03:33:34,065
but Luke Dashjr. wanted to kill this idea, and he had the worst reasons possible,
but it was a spam reason.

2448
03:33:34,065 --> 03:33:43,065
But instead, if everyone had just ignored Luke, which we should certainly have done
in that case, then there wouldn't even be any addresses.

2449
03:33:43,065 --> 03:33:50,065
By the time 2017 had rolled around and the time came to do SegWit, there wouldn't be
any addresses.

2450
03:33:50,065 --> 03:33:54,065
There would only be the friend code.

2451
03:33:54,065 --> 03:34:00,065
It is an interesting thought experiment, but then again, you look at old Yalt coins
and they still have addresses.

2452
03:34:00,065 --> 03:34:04,065
Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.

2453
03:34:04,065 --> 03:34:10,065
Just wallets have nicer interfaces sometimes where you can have like a NIM or
whatever.

2454
03:34:10,065 --> 03:34:13,065
My guess is that they just prefer to take something off the shelf.

2455
03:34:13,065 --> 03:34:17,065
They fork BDK or they fork like a blue wallet or whatever.

2456
03:34:17,065 --> 03:34:20,065
So since Bitcoin is doing it, they play follow the leader.

2457
03:34:20,065 --> 03:34:26,065
But notice that I think Ethereum for a while, they had the whatever, the .eth thing.

2458
03:34:26,065 --> 03:34:33,065
So other people are getting away from it slowly.

2459
03:34:33,065 --> 03:34:35,065
But we should have just killed that red dot.

2460
03:34:35,065 --> 03:34:36,065
It was always a bad idea, right?

2461
03:34:36,065 --> 03:34:40,065
Like why would you want everyone to be able to look into your transactions?

2462
03:34:40,065 --> 03:34:47,065
Why do I have to give you an address when you can just calculate it from my friend
code?

2463
03:34:47,065 --> 03:34:57,065
But because Luke didn't like that the first transaction is that you have with
someone is 20% more bytes.

2464
03:34:57,065 --> 03:35:03,065
So he said this is spamming the chain.

2465
03:35:03,065 --> 03:35:09,065
It's like he is chasing this lifelong obsession and he hasn't moved on.

2466
03:35:09,065 --> 03:35:11,065
Yes, it's like a Captain Ahab.

2467
03:35:11,065 --> 03:35:13,065
It's a white whale.

2468
03:35:13,065 --> 03:35:14,065
Did I read this?

2469
03:35:15,065 --> 03:35:17,065
I know that one.

2470
03:35:17,065 --> 03:35:18,065
Come on.

2471
03:35:18,065 --> 03:35:21,065
Probably a lot of Americans don't these days.

2472
03:35:21,065 --> 03:35:23,065
No one reads a book anymore, I think.

2473
03:35:23,065 --> 03:35:24,065
But I was just kind of one.

2474
03:35:24,065 --> 03:35:29,065
I always I'm always very impressed whenever I meet anyone who English is not their
first language.

2475
03:35:29,065 --> 03:35:39,065
I always think, do they know any of like our idioms about like, you know, like it's
different as chalk and cheese and the low hanging fruit and all this other stuff
burning the midnight oil.

2476
03:35:39,065 --> 03:35:42,065
Do they have any idea what we're talking about?

2477
03:35:42,065 --> 03:35:44,065
You say this.

2478
03:35:44,065 --> 03:35:47,065
So something about chalk and cheese.

2479
03:35:47,065 --> 03:35:49,065
As different as chalk and cheese.

2480
03:35:49,065 --> 03:35:51,065
That's like when two things are very different.

2481
03:35:51,065 --> 03:35:53,065
Would they seem similar?

2482
03:35:53,065 --> 03:35:54,065
But you say no, no, no.

2483
03:35:54,065 --> 03:35:56,065
Those things are as different as chalk and cheese.

2484
03:35:56,065 --> 03:36:03,065
You might think that the SegWit soft fork is the same as the CTV soft fork, but
they're as different as chalk and cheese.

2485
03:36:04,065 --> 03:36:05,065
They're actually completely different.

2486
03:36:05,065 --> 03:36:08,065
Because cheese is something delicious that you would eat and you wouldn't want to
eat chalk.

2487
03:36:08,065 --> 03:36:10,065
That would be awful.

2488
03:36:10,065 --> 03:36:12,065
You can't really write with cheese.

2489
03:36:12,065 --> 03:36:13,065
Yeah, that's a good one.

2490
03:36:13,065 --> 03:36:14,065
Sort of sound the same.

2491
03:36:14,065 --> 03:36:15,065
Chalk, cheese.

2492
03:36:15,065 --> 03:36:17,065
They both have syllables.

2493
03:36:17,065 --> 03:36:18,065
Like a rhyme.

2494
03:36:18,065 --> 03:36:20,065
The rhyming is part of it, I think.

2495
03:36:20,065 --> 03:36:22,065
Yeah.

2496
03:36:22,065 --> 03:36:23,065
Interesting.

2497
03:36:23,065 --> 03:36:27,065
Is there any derangement that you want to talk about?

2498
03:36:27,065 --> 03:36:29,065
You want to go through the whole list?

2499
03:36:29,065 --> 03:36:31,065
No, I don't think we should go through the whole list.

2500
03:36:32,065 --> 03:36:33,065
I don't think there's too much.

2501
03:36:33,065 --> 03:36:47,065
But I think if anyone is still the two people who are still watching the stream, if
they actually care about anyone in particular, or if they care about anything in
particular, we should do audience.

2502
03:36:47,065 --> 03:36:51,065
Someone is asking in the chat if you have seen silent payments, which is a feature.

2503
03:36:51,065 --> 03:36:53,065
Yeah, it's very, very similar to 47.

2504
03:36:53,065 --> 03:36:56,065
They're extremely similar to 47.

2505
03:36:56,065 --> 03:37:07,065
I don't remember at this point the exact details, but I remember thinking to myself
that I didn't think that silent payments actually is that much of an improvement
over bit 47 v3.

2506
03:37:07,065 --> 03:37:17,065
The guy who did bit 47, he got tired of Luke's nonsense and he just put his v3 in a
different repo, which is not as easy to find.

2507
03:37:17,065 --> 03:37:19,065
But that's the one that Samurai uses, I think.

2508
03:37:19,065 --> 03:37:20,065
I'm pretty sure.

2509
03:37:20,065 --> 03:37:26,065
I think it's also on Sparrow, which is still a desktop wallet that's being
maintained.

2510
03:37:26,065 --> 03:37:27,065
Sparrow is an excellent wallet.

2511
03:37:27,065 --> 03:37:32,065
And so Samurai has real users and Sparrow has an actual engineer who cares about
things.

2512
03:37:32,065 --> 03:37:36,065
So they'll notice they put it in because it's a good idea.

2513
03:37:36,065 --> 03:37:43,065
And because we don't want people to be having to keep track of these lists of
addresses that are all just gobbledygook.

2514
03:37:43,065 --> 03:37:48,065
And we should have long since moved on to – I'll get back to the silent payments
thing in a second.

2515
03:37:48,065 --> 03:37:54,065
But we should have long since moved on to having some kind of Namecoin sidechain
thing where you just have the name.

2516
03:37:54,065 --> 03:38:09,065
You own a cryptographic name on the blockchain and the name just resolves to – and
then you wouldn't need – that would be so good and that would help so much because
often – you hear these stories about people being scammed all the time.

2517
03:38:09,065 --> 03:38:17,065
A lot of the scams are like, oh, send this money to Coinbase and it's, OK, here's
the address.

2518
03:38:17,065 --> 03:38:29,065
This entire category of scam would not be possible if it was just like, oh,
everything just goes to inbound at Coinbase.com or something or if they have
Coinbase.bit.

2519
03:38:30,065 --> 03:38:42,065
And every single person knows – no, every single time that I send Bitcoin to
Coinbase, I just – all I have to do is look up Coinbase in the phone book, the
blockchain phone book.

2520
03:38:42,065 --> 03:38:45,065
And also, it would authenticate the messages.

2521
03:38:45,065 --> 03:38:53,065
So when you get a message from Coinbase, the scammer spoofs the message and they
say, oh yeah, this is from Coinbase.

2522
03:38:53,065 --> 03:38:55,065
We need you to reset your account and click this link.

2523
03:38:55,065 --> 03:38:58,065
And it links you to like a fake Coinbase.

2524
03:38:58,065 --> 03:39:02,065
But that wouldn't be possible because you would already know the key.

2525
03:39:02,065 --> 03:39:06,065
The bit name thing, the Namecoin thing would already resolve.

2526
03:39:06,065 --> 03:39:18,065
So every messaging that would – the people you're – the place you send the money and
the place you send messages to and from and that authenticates the connection in
your browser, all of this stuff.

2527
03:39:18,065 --> 03:39:22,065
This could all be governed, SSL, PGP, whatever.

2528
03:39:22,065 --> 03:39:25,065
This could all be governed by this Namecoin thing.

2529
03:39:25,065 --> 03:39:35,065
We should have been long past even the friend code, but we never had any sidechains
because we just didn't for whatever numerous reasons.

2530
03:39:35,065 --> 03:39:37,065
But instead –

2531
03:39:37,065 --> 03:39:39,065
Too pessimistic, Paul.

2532
03:39:39,065 --> 03:39:50,065
I feel like as time passes, you get proven wrong and it's only a matter of time
until the miners will get hungry enough to start experimenting.

2533
03:39:50,065 --> 03:39:51,065
Yeah.

2534
03:39:51,065 --> 03:39:53,065
But back to silent payments.

2535
03:39:53,065 --> 03:40:01,065
I can't exactly – I'm not sure if I 100% remember the details, but there's a
fundamental limitation either way where either you have to consume some bytes.

2536
03:40:01,065 --> 03:40:03,065
This was Luke's veto of the whole thing.

2537
03:40:03,065 --> 03:40:12,065
You have to consume some bytes to notify someone because the way it would work is
either – so it would mean you have – you each have a friend code.

2538
03:40:12,065 --> 03:40:17,065
And if we – once we learn each other's friend code, we're good.

2539
03:40:17,065 --> 03:40:26,065
But the idea was, well, this is kind of inconvenient if I have to message you first,
then you have to message me.

2540
03:40:26,065 --> 03:40:28,065
People thought, should it really work that way?

2541
03:40:28,065 --> 03:40:31,065
How we have to connect each other?

2542
03:40:31,065 --> 03:40:36,065
So the original idea was we'll use the blockchain to establish the connection.

2543
03:40:36,065 --> 03:40:39,065
This also makes it easier to back up all the funds and everything.

2544
03:40:39,065 --> 03:40:45,065
So there's this notification transaction that Luke was talking about, hating.

2545
03:40:45,065 --> 03:40:50,065
And it was like you send money here, but one of the things is a bare multisig, and
it includes this code.

2546
03:40:50,065 --> 03:40:51,065
It includes my code to you.

2547
03:40:51,065 --> 03:40:55,065
So if I look up your friend code on the blockchain, I send you the notification.

2548
03:40:55,065 --> 03:40:59,065
The notification contains my friend code, which you could have looked up.

2549
03:40:59,065 --> 03:41:04,065
You could have gotten from me, but it establishes this permanent tunnel between us.

2550
03:41:04,065 --> 03:41:10,065
Okay, so either you have to scan – you have a scanning requirement or you have a
notification requirement.

2551
03:41:10,065 --> 03:41:14,065
And I think the notification requirement is just – that's better.

2552
03:41:14,065 --> 03:41:17,065
Much more convenient for the user.

2553
03:41:17,065 --> 03:41:23,065
I like anything where we're using the bytes in the blockchain for something better.

2554
03:41:23,065 --> 03:41:33,065
I just think it's much easier because the scanning requirement is that you have to
scan the whole blockchain searching for people who have tried to notify you.

2555
03:41:33,065 --> 03:41:37,065
You have to search every transaction in the whole blockchain.

2556
03:41:38,065 --> 03:41:44,065
And you have to XOR them, so you can't get them from someone else.

2557
03:41:44,065 --> 03:41:47,065
It's now 800 gigabytes.

2558
03:41:47,065 --> 03:41:50,065
People are not going to do that, so a lot of people aren't.

2559
03:41:50,065 --> 03:41:52,065
So I think that's way worse.

2560
03:41:52,065 --> 03:42:01,065
I'm pretty sure – I may have totally misremembered this, but I think SilentPayments
tries to keep Luke happy and do the – so yeah.

2561
03:42:02,065 --> 03:42:09,065
But yeah, SilentPayments is another example of this BIP-47 class of thing.

2562
03:42:11,065 --> 03:42:14,065
These are all good ideas that we should do, but we're not doing anything.

2563
03:42:14,065 --> 03:42:16,065
This is why I like you, Paul.

2564
03:42:16,065 --> 03:42:18,065
You really think outside the box.

2565
03:42:18,065 --> 03:42:20,065
You're not taking anything for granted.

2566
03:42:20,065 --> 03:42:22,065
You're like, why is this here?

2567
03:42:22,065 --> 03:42:24,065
Why are we still using this?

2568
03:42:24,065 --> 03:42:26,065
Is it the optimal user experience?

2569
03:42:26,065 --> 03:42:28,065
No, we don't need – everyone has – we've just gotten used to it.

2570
03:42:28,065 --> 03:42:30,065
We've had addresses for so long.

2571
03:42:31,065 --> 03:42:33,065
But the other thing is people don't use Bitcoin.

2572
03:42:33,065 --> 03:42:35,065
It's just a picker.

2573
03:42:35,065 --> 03:42:41,065
It's something they buy on Coinbase or it's something they buy through the ETF or
MSTR.

2574
03:42:41,065 --> 03:42:44,065
So they aren't real Bitcoin users.

2575
03:42:44,065 --> 03:42:48,065
If they were, they would be like, where the fuck are these addresses?

2576
03:42:48,065 --> 03:42:51,065
They'd be like, this is annoying.

2577
03:42:53,065 --> 03:42:55,065
Yeah, you're right about this.

2578
03:42:56,065 --> 03:43:01,065
From a UX perspective, it's so convenient, and it can prevent some scams.

2579
03:43:01,065 --> 03:43:04,065
But on the other hand, doesn't this diminish the privacy?

2580
03:43:04,065 --> 03:43:08,065
Like when you're posting an address, there's no direct association.

2581
03:43:08,065 --> 03:43:10,065
There's like a deniability.

2582
03:43:10,065 --> 03:43:14,065
No, there's no – the cryptography is done very well.

2583
03:43:14,065 --> 03:43:16,065
Of course, all kinds of things are theoretically possible.

2584
03:43:16,065 --> 03:43:27,065
So, for example, in the old v2, it was possible to learn that Paul established a
connection to Vlad.

2585
03:43:27,065 --> 03:43:38,065
But everything else, what he sent to him and how much and when and in which
transactions, all that would remain private.

2586
03:43:40,065 --> 03:43:44,065
And so you can still – there are many variants on that.

2587
03:43:45,065 --> 03:43:57,065
In the later variant, it was upgraded to if – whichever one of us wants to initiate
it, the internet knows that someone –

2588
03:43:57,065 --> 03:44:06,065
like if I wanted to donate – if you wanted to collect donations for something and
you post your code, it was later upgraded to –

2589
03:44:06,065 --> 03:44:12,065
the internet knows every time someone makes a new connection to that.

2590
03:44:12,065 --> 03:44:15,065
So they don't know, did that person ever donate any money?

2591
03:44:15,065 --> 03:44:21,065
Was that the last they ever saw of each other or did they – so the privacy is pretty
good.

2592
03:44:21,065 --> 03:44:23,065
People always complain about this.

2593
03:44:23,065 --> 03:44:26,065
These are the things like compared to what?

2594
03:44:26,065 --> 03:44:38,065
Compared to – yeah, just think of how many people have been scammed as a result of
address being tricked into the wrong address.

2595
03:44:38,065 --> 03:44:41,065
Some kind of address substitution or some kind of scam.

2596
03:44:43,065 --> 03:44:53,065
I think that for a while in Ethereum land, I think they were using Metamask, which
was basically showing only the first four digits and the last four digits.

2597
03:44:53,065 --> 03:45:03,065
And I think a couple of times those addresses could be spoofed by some malicious
attackers that replaced the address with something that they generated.

2598
03:45:03,343 --> 03:45:10,343
And it looked similar, except that the stuff in the middle, which was not being
shown unless you actually clicked the button to see the whole address.

2599
03:45:10,343 --> 03:45:14,343
So they had no idea that they were getting scammed.

2600
03:45:14,343 --> 03:45:22,343
So then people say compared to what is my answer to a lot of these questions because
Luke hated the 20%.

2601
03:45:22,343 --> 03:45:31,343
But what he meant was I don't like that someone somewhere is paying with their own
money for Blockspace 20% larger transaction because they want to.

2602
03:45:31,343 --> 03:45:51,343
He didn't say, oh, this isn't good because what it should instead do is like have –
the user should scan every single transaction in the whole history and XOR something
so that they can – it's like these people are –

2603
03:45:51,343 --> 03:45:57,343
we made a mistake by policing the contents of the blockchain.

2604
03:45:57,343 --> 03:46:01,343
Every time we make – every time we police the contents of the blockchain, we make a
mistake anyway.

2605
03:46:01,343 --> 03:46:14,343
So this is why the Ordnos thing is super wrong is the hate and why Luke is
completely wrong about all this about how like people are also wrong to meet him
halfway when they say, well, I agree with you that spam is bad, but there's nothing
we can do about it.

2606
03:46:14,343 --> 03:46:19,343
They should just say anyone buying L1 bytes with their own money is doing a good
thing.

2607
03:46:19,343 --> 03:46:29,343
But yeah, it's – so I don't know. We've gone for a pretty long time. Do you think we
should?

2608
03:46:29,343 --> 03:46:33,343
It's almost four hours. I just want to thank you, Paul, for your time.

2609
03:46:33,343 --> 03:46:47,343
I also want to say that I'm sorry for being late. And during Christmas and the new
year, I was sick and I was in bed. I got this gigaflu, which was some of the worst
I've ever had ever.

2610
03:46:47,343 --> 03:46:57,343
Like I could have like a slow and – I don't want to get there, but I could basically
die and not feel any pain in that condition.

2611
03:46:58,343 --> 03:47:03,343
But I was listening to Bitcoin Uncensored the whole time from the LayerTwo Labs
Twitter page.

2612
03:47:03,343 --> 03:47:14,343
And I came across that – yeah, I was not looking at the graphic that was being
shown. I didn't care too much about that. I was just listening in the background to
the conversation.

2613
03:47:14,343 --> 03:47:17,343
Bitcoin Uncensored is so good. It's still to this day.

2614
03:47:17,343 --> 03:47:26,343
It's ahead of its time. And you realize at the same time that nothing much has
changed since then, maybe just the names, but everything else is sort of the same.

2615
03:47:26,343 --> 03:47:40,343
But what I want to say is that during the episode with Bruce Fenton and Fluffy Pony
and David Bailey, you basically jumped in towards the end and you sat down with them
in the toilet.

2616
03:47:40,343 --> 03:47:45,343
I did not watch it because there is no video on it, but I did hear the conversation.

2617
03:47:45,343 --> 03:47:49,343
Either TNABC or this is Satoshi's Roundtable 2 or something.

2618
03:47:49,343 --> 03:47:51,343
Satoshi's Roundtable, yeah.

2619
03:47:51,343 --> 03:48:03,343
No, I don't think that was – because there's one – at TNABC, they literally sat –
they literally snuck in a table and chairs and a tablecloth into the men's bathroom.

2620
03:48:03,343 --> 03:48:06,343
And they did the podcast from the men's bathroom.

2621
03:48:06,343 --> 03:48:16,343
But then there were other times. I don't think – I'm not sure that – I think with
Bruce Fenton being there, I think it was probably Satoshi's Roundtable 2.

2622
03:48:16,343 --> 03:48:19,343
Yeah, it was that one. So maybe I'm mixing the information.

2623
03:48:19,343 --> 03:48:25,343
Well, I think they – okay, what they did is in that one they followed Michael Turpin
around I think.

2624
03:48:25,343 --> 03:48:30,343
But then he went to the bathroom and they were like, we can't follow him because he
went to the bathroom.

2625
03:48:30,343 --> 03:48:38,343
So I think that's what – I think that's where they started to just make a joke about
that, that it was based on nothing.

2626
03:48:38,343 --> 03:48:42,343
Oh, but you don't know where this is going because you –

2627
03:48:42,343 --> 03:48:44,343
I remember being blackout drunk at that event.

2628
03:48:44,343 --> 03:48:46,343
Yes, you were. You said you had some Long Island –

2629
03:48:47,343 --> 03:48:49,343
Iced tea.

2630
03:48:49,343 --> 03:49:01,343
But it was a rough event because tensions were high about the block size war and
everyone wanted to resolve it.

2631
03:49:01,343 --> 03:49:09,343
And I just thought, well, this isn't working at all. So I had a great time. I had so
much fun.

2632
03:49:09,343 --> 03:49:19,343
You got the drinks. But anyway, I think it was Johnset who told you that you should
take your shirt off and you mentioned that you have a six-pack but you're not going
to do it.

2633
03:49:19,343 --> 03:49:24,343
And I was going to ask you, do you want to take your shirt off during this show
towards the end?

2634
03:49:24,343 --> 03:49:29,343
No. I don't know. Do I still have a six-pack? I don't know. Maybe.

2635
03:49:31,343 --> 03:49:33,343
It's been like 10 years.

2636
03:49:33,343 --> 03:49:38,343
What's with the Telegram founder? What's the secret?

2637
03:49:43,343 --> 03:49:47,343
He's doing something, right?

2638
03:49:49,343 --> 03:49:52,343
Probably a lot of biohacking or steroids.

2639
03:49:54,343 --> 03:49:58,343
But he has like 100 kids. He's living a very unusual life.

2640
03:49:59,343 --> 03:50:05,343
Anyway, that pitch got declined. Thank you very much, Paul, for being here.

2641
03:50:05,343 --> 03:50:14,343
I also want to put something on the screen because it was on the Telegram channel
for Drivechain Talk.

2642
03:50:14,343 --> 03:50:23,343
So someone made this, the two of us with Doge faces. I put this. It's on the
livestream screen. You can check it out.

2643
03:50:24,343 --> 03:50:30,343
I just want to give them credit for doing this because they put some time and effort
and it's like fan art.

2644
03:50:30,343 --> 03:50:37,343
Someone actually made this and they were upset when I did not use this for the
official graphics when we started.

2645
03:50:37,343 --> 03:50:42,343
I want to acknowledge the effort nonetheless. It's very cool.

2646
03:50:42,343 --> 03:50:52,343
And what else? Try the software. Go to LayerTwoLabs.com. It can be a very fun weekend
project just to connect with people and see what the future of Bitcoin can look
like.

2647
03:50:53,343 --> 03:51:02,343
Okay, great. Yes. And thanks as always. Thank you for reading my article and I'm
glad that you liked it.

2648
03:51:02,343 --> 03:51:11,343
I'm curious about this. How did you find the article? Because you must have just
been bored and just clicked into the site or something.

2649
03:51:11,343 --> 03:51:17,343
No, I was on the Drivechain Talk Telegram chat and someone posted this.

2650
03:51:18,343 --> 03:51:22,343
I just clicked it and I was like, my God, how did I miss this?

2651
03:51:22,343 --> 03:51:28,343
I'm like, how do people find you? Because now you can't find anything good.
Everything's terrible now.

2652
03:51:28,343 --> 03:51:30,343
Not with search engines, no.

2653
03:51:30,343 --> 03:51:38,343
The Twitter algorithm is just ruining everything. But I think it's getting better
though. It was hopeless before. It would just give you this political junk.

2654
03:51:39,343 --> 03:51:47,343
But I think it is getting better. But yeah, where do you find Bitcoin news? There's
Delving Bitcoin, but even that I don't like.

2655
03:51:47,343 --> 03:51:52,343
I went back to Bitcoin Talk, believe it or not. I'm using Bitcoin Talk again.

2656
03:51:52,343 --> 03:51:53,343
You gotta try that.

2657
03:51:54,343 --> 03:52:03,343
I'm just chilling my podcast and I search through the threads and I realize there's
a lot of newbies who ask newbie questions and it's not very interesting.

2658
03:52:03,343 --> 03:52:10,343
Maybe I should try to listen to what's it called? The Uptech podcast.

2659
03:52:10,343 --> 03:52:14,343
Yeah, but you see, even all that is just like about nothing.

2660
03:52:14,343 --> 03:52:18,343
Because there's nothing much happening and it's kind of painful.

2661
03:52:19,343 --> 03:52:20,343
Yeah.

2662
03:52:20,343 --> 03:52:30,343
It's also funny with Bitcoin Core. They launched a new version of it. They went from
29 to 30. There are no new features, but there are new bugs, which are going to fix
soon.

2663
03:52:30,343 --> 03:52:38,343
They refactored. Do you know how many unit tests they have? They added more. No, I'm
just kidding. I don't even know if they have or not.

2664
03:52:39,343 --> 03:52:43,343
Because it's not even worth it to look into. So, yeah, I don't know.

2665
03:52:46,343 --> 03:52:56,343
Yeah, I think it's not a good sign that they – well, yeah, people have given up on
progress, unfortunately.

2666
03:52:56,343 --> 03:53:06,343
So there is actually – it's funny. On one hand, there's a totally delusional
optimism, but on the other hand, there's actually – beneath the surface, I think the
whole thing is paralyzed by pessimism.

2667
03:53:06,343 --> 03:53:15,343
If you compare it to what it was like in 2014, wherever it was taken for granted,
every altcoin feature would be bolted into Bitcoin because it's all open source.

2668
03:53:15,343 --> 03:53:21,343
Anything open source ever invented, we'll just keep adding all this stuff. The
Bitcoin would be this super cool piece of software.

2669
03:53:21,343 --> 03:53:27,343
Eventually, we'll get rid of addresses. Eventually, we'll have – stuff will be even
easier to scale. There will be total privacy.

2670
03:53:27,343 --> 03:53:31,343
There will be all these features. There will be smart contracts. There will be
whatever. There will be everything.

2671
03:53:32,343 --> 03:53:40,343
So that was all taken for granted. We're going to get more and more people to adopt
Bitcoin, and they're going to – you're going to be able to go to the store.

2672
03:53:40,343 --> 03:53:46,343
You're going to be able to go to Microsoft or GameStop or whatever, and you're going
to be able to buy stuff with Bitcoin and a little QR code.

2673
03:53:47,343 --> 03:54:03,343
But now, there is paradoxically more optimism but also less. There's more in the
very narrow fake channels of ETF or nation-state adoption. I don't know.

2674
03:54:05,343 --> 03:54:11,343
There's a lot of money in that, and I still don't get it. What's the point? It
defeats the purpose.

2675
03:54:12,343 --> 03:54:15,343
But people throw money at it. There are so many investors.

2676
03:54:16,343 --> 03:54:25,343
You will own no Bitcoin, but your government will. It's like, wait a minute. Okay.
Well, good luck with that.

2677
03:54:26,343 --> 03:54:33,343
The government is getting all the sovereignty. Wait a minute. That was not the – but
I think any adoption is good adoption.

2678
03:54:33,343 --> 03:54:42,343
But I mean not necessarily because we have adopted – some people have adopted who
say adoption is bad, and now they're setting the whole project back I think.

2679
03:54:43,343 --> 03:54:47,343
So we didn't actually want to have – we didn't want to collect certain people.

2680
03:54:49,343 --> 03:54:52,343
We want everyone to at least care about the project of adoption.

2681
03:54:52,343 --> 03:55:01,343
So if we adopt – if we get some people in into Bitcoin who sabotage that, then it
was actually bad to have gotten them in the first place.

2682
03:55:04,343 --> 03:55:09,343
Yeah. There are lots of bad ideas floating around, and somehow they're getting
funded.

2683
03:55:10,343 --> 03:55:16,343
Maybe one day we're going to rationalize the whole thing and just go back to square
one and keep building.

2684
03:55:17,343 --> 03:55:27,343
Until then, I just want to say that I'm working on something which concerns the
ideology of Bitcoin post-maximalism, and I'm trying to explain how that works.

2685
03:55:27,343 --> 03:55:32,343
And I know that you wrote an article about it because you're always like a decade
ahead of the rest of us.

2686
03:55:33,343 --> 03:55:41,343
You wrote a pretty good article about it from 2018, and I found it, and I guess your
premise was different.

2687
03:55:42,343 --> 03:55:52,343
You basically assumed that even after Bitcoin wins, there's still going to be a lot
of infighting, and people will just have this race to the bottom where they still
have to escape the dogma.

2688
03:55:53,343 --> 03:56:03,343
Well, I think – yeah, at that time I had already noticed – in 2018 I had already
noticed that there was a lot of complacency.

2689
03:56:04,343 --> 03:56:16,343
And you were just saying – people would just say like, okay, Bitcoin – because
Bitcoin maximalism was a very, very good idea if you compare it to when Litecoin is
first created.

2690
03:56:17,343 --> 03:56:18,343
It's just a copy-paste of Bitcoin.

2691
03:56:19,343 --> 03:56:25,343
So all this work went into creating Bitcoin, but then copy-paste, and then a million
copy-paste, Feathercoin, whatever.

2692
03:56:26,343 --> 03:56:29,343
And then you had these bad projects like AuroraCoin, whatever, NXT.

2693
03:56:30,343 --> 03:56:31,343
They weren't very good.

2694
03:56:32,343 --> 03:56:34,343
So maximalism was like just ignore all that stuff and focus on Bitcoin.

2695
03:56:34,343 --> 03:56:47,343
But even as early as 2018, then I noticed that this was just coming around to the
idea of just, well, Bitcoin is perfect, so we don't need to do anything anymore.

2696
03:56:48,343 --> 03:56:52,343
And so it was like, who cares about the users?

2697
03:56:53,343 --> 03:56:59,343
And it was also – a lot of it was like very mean-spirited, like the way people were
dealing with the large blockers.

2698
03:57:00,343 --> 03:57:11,343
Like you were talking about the denial-of-service attack that took out like a power
grid or something in the Bitcoin Cash era or the block size signaling era.

2699
03:57:12,343 --> 03:57:14,343
And everyone was just like so mean.

2700
03:57:15,343 --> 03:57:18,343
And you could tell that this was not about doing what's best for Bitcoin.

2701
03:57:18,343 --> 03:57:28,343
This was just about scoring points, doing virtue signaling, and it had all just
become like a high school drama or whatever.

2702
03:57:29,343 --> 03:57:33,343
So you could tell even then that it would all become political.

2703
03:57:34,343 --> 03:57:36,343
And now we're still paying for it eight years later.

2704
03:57:37,343 --> 03:57:43,343
We have – the politics has increased, and the meritocracy has decreased.

2705
03:57:44,343 --> 03:57:46,343
Yeah, that's a good point.

2706
03:57:47,343 --> 03:57:54,343
I remember Peter Todd making this argument that it's cheaper to scale computation
than to scale human politics.

2707
03:57:55,343 --> 03:58:00,343
And this was in the context of Drivechains, and I think this was back in 2022.

2708
03:58:01,343 --> 03:58:07,343
We actually watched that whole debate going on in Riga, and we commented on it.

2709
03:58:07,343 --> 03:58:13,343
But the point that I'm trying to present is that Bitcoin is mostly about game
theory.

2710
03:58:14,343 --> 03:58:19,343
And you can't really deal with game theory without actually interacting with
politics.

2711
03:58:20,343 --> 03:58:28,343
And we haven't figured out a way to solve the double spending problem without game
theory and only with cryptography and computer science.

2712
03:58:29,343 --> 03:58:31,343
Not in a decentralized way.

2713
03:58:32,343 --> 03:58:34,343
Yes, I would agree.

2714
03:58:34,343 --> 03:58:36,343
Yes, I would agree.

2715
03:58:37,343 --> 03:58:44,343
And yeah, this is related to Peter being very confused about – it's kind of
laughable.

2716
03:58:45,343 --> 03:58:56,343
He's confused about extremely basic things, but he doesn't – he thinks that
Drivechain is an L1 block size increase, and he's flatly wrong about that.

2717
03:58:57,343 --> 03:58:59,343
But he's wrong about all kinds of things.

2718
03:58:59,343 --> 03:59:09,343
You can look at my reply to – he did his piece of writing, and I went through, and
it's like every paragraph has mistakes that are just bizarre.

2719
03:59:10,343 --> 03:59:19,343
And so I don't know. I think he just like – but like he didn't – I don't think –
it's clear that he has never – so as he said when we were talking about that, he
never visited the site because he didn't know.

2720
03:59:20,343 --> 03:59:27,343
He said there's no software for this, even though the software was two and a half
years old at that time, and it was right at the top of drivechain.info, like
download.

2721
03:59:28,343 --> 03:59:38,343
So he just like – he doesn't know. He just heard something about Drivechain once,
and he just like – he wrote down what he thinks it is, and then he's – so yeah.

2722
03:59:39,343 --> 03:59:55,343
It's unfortunate that that's – that is itself like a derangement of like that these
are – this is the kind of criticism that people get is something where the critic
has never visited the site once, and they have no idea what's on like the first like
three words.

2723
03:59:56,343 --> 04:00:02,343
And like yeah, it's hard to get worse than that. It's as low as it gets.

2724
04:00:03,343 --> 04:00:12,343
Okay, Paul. I selfishly – I can't even talk anymore. I selfishly dragged the
conversation to pass the four-hour mark.

2725
04:00:13,343 --> 04:00:32,343
All right. Let's end it here. What a great time it was. Follow me on Twitter, now
called xtruthcoin, t-r-u-t-h-c-o-i-n, telegram, t.me slash dcinsiders,
LayerTwoLabs.com, drivechain.info.

2726
04:00:33,343 --> 04:00:34,343
And Truthcoin.info.

2727
04:00:35,343 --> 04:00:44,343
And Truthcoin.info, bitcoinhivemind.com. I got all kinds of sites. I got all kinds
of info. I got all kinds of great stuff. Okay. Thanks very much.

2728
04:00:45,343 --> 04:00:46,343
Thanks, Paul.

2729
04:00:46,343 --> 04:00:48,343
Until next time, everyone. Bye, Vlad. See you later.

2730
04:00:48,343 --> 04:00:49,343
Bye, party people and Paul.

2731
04:00:50,343 --> 04:00:51,343
Bye.

2732
04:01:02,343 --> 04:01:04,343
Transcription by ESO. Translation by —