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Hello, hello.

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And I have a new phone, so hopefully it won't crash, as often happens, but brand new.

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I try to make them last a little while, you know, I try to make them last as long as I

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can before replacing them, because it just seems wasteful.

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But now I got a new one, and it looks like the app is running a little better, so hopefully

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it won't keep crashing and kicking me out.

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This is a common trend that, you know, the hardware improves and the software developers

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are lazy.

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They don't fix, you know, memory issues anymore, because no one has to optimize anything.

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The hardware is so good.

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Anyway, hopefully we'll get some cool people, we'll get some, I see some great friendly

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faces in the audience, maybe we'll get some haters, I don't know.

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I hope everyone liked our video that we made.

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It's a hilarious video of Peter, apparently Peter Todd, who has been this big skeptic

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of Mergemind sidechains for a really, really long time.

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The issue is, though, that he doesn't really know anything about them at all.

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It's just surprising.

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I'm as surprised as you, but in particular, he hasn't looked into my project at all, into

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the point where he didn't even realize we had made a fully functional Zcash sidechain

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with the GUI two and a half years ago, and made a video about it two and a half years

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ago.

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And he thought that this idea is just some kind of vaporware, which is really something

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because most of the ideas that people talk about really are complete vaporware, such

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as, you know, well, I don't even, you know, there's no real status of Ark, there's no

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real status of like, surf chains or these other things are just in a very, very incomplete

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state.

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But that's very, very different from the state of drivechain, where we have a lot of stuff

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that people can use right now, where if you go to the drivechain.info slash releases page,

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you can download stuff there.

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And it has a GUI and it works with play money, of course, play money for now.

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But there you go.

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So hopefully someone, if you have any thoughts, come on up and leave a question or comment.

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Otherwise it'll just be me rambling slowly about nothing, which I'm sure no one wants

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to hear.

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We have someone in the audience with negative one IQ.

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And I got to tell you, as someone who was a professional statistician, I'm pretty sure

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that that is possible because it's normed to a mean of average of 100 and standard deviation

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of 15.

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So if you're low enough, then it will eventually become negative.

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So I don't know what the z-score on that is.

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I mean, I guess we do know that it is 100 over 15 plus a little.

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And so I think the population would have to be several quadrillion people at least.

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And then that would be the lowest score of them all.

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But someone should look that up.

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Fire up a z-calculator.

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It probably won't even work.

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If you fire up a z-score calculator online and try to plug that in, it probably will

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just crash.

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But not because it's negative, just because it's really, really far.

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Yes, hello.

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I'm glad that we put the video in the...

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I don't know what to interpret.

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I don't know how to interpret that type of thing.

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He's been saying all this stuff for years.

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He's saying merge mine sidechains were Greg Maxwell's biggest mistake, for example.

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And yet he has really no ability to back any of that up.

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It's just him saying things like he prefers that miners' costs be shaped a certain way.

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And even on that absurd criterion, he's not correct.

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So even if that made any sense, which it doesn't, he wouldn't even be right.

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Because either the full node costs have to be very low.

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He's talking about the fact that miners may be pressured into running a node for transaction

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fees.

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But that costs nothing, basically.

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Nodes cannot be expensive, because if they are, the network just shuts off.

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Or if they are, then the miners are enticed.

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They will just partner with the full node, and that is what blind merge mining is.

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It doesn't even matter if BIP301 is used or not.

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It's just this technique.

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BIP301 makes it trustless to cooperate with a node.

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But there's no sense in which once you do 100,000 hashes, you move from needing one

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node to needing two nodes.

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You just have the one node somewhere in your setup, and that one node will work for all

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the hashing machines plugged into your operation.

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And that's why it doesn't matter what the full node cost is to miners.

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To users, it matters enormously.

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But again, this is the whole point of sidechains, is that this full node cost must be kept down

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But some people don't want it to be the absolute minimum.

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So again, it's crucial that the full node cost be kept down.

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You know, Peter and I agree about that.

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But some people want to pay a little bit more.

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And so they use whichever sidechains they like, and they don't turn any new sidechains

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on.

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And if there's many sidechains, then you're not moving this number up non-consensually.

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You consent to move it up.

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So this is really missing the whole point.

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It's like the difference between eating as much food as you like and being force-fed

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to death, which is being force-fed to death would be the large block version.

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One mandatory L1 large block.

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And then drivechain is eating as much food as you want and no more.

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And then the small block version is having only the, you only get as much food as the,

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you know, as the smallest people wanting, you know, whatever the smallest amount ordered.

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You don't sit down to eat and someone orders a salad only.

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Now everyone says to eat salad.

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But why do it like that when people could just have whatever they like?

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You know what they did on the Ordinal show?

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They play music while they're waiting for like the space to fill up and like waiting

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for people to come up on stage.

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That's like a neat idea like that.

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Maybe we should do that.

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Otherwise it would be really boring if no one comes up and talks.

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We could do that.

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Let's see.

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The Ordinal show, they have like a really like R&B type of a thing.

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I don't really think that's the drivechain music.

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It should be like 8-bit.

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I don't know.

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How are you, Paul?

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It's amazing how you handle all this, you know.

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It's amazing how you strongly and politely doing all this, you know, criticism.

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And it's very impressive.

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I mean, it's very nice to see that.

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I don't really get a lot of it.

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I think maybe it should be a little more assertive where it's kind of like, how can it be that

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like these people don't really know anything about the project and they're saying like

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they don't like it, but they don't know anything, though.

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So it's like a little bit more assertive.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Like these people don't really know anything about the project and they're saying like

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they don't like it, but they don't know anything, though.

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So it's like they literally haven't even glanced at like website.

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To say they've done the bare minimum is like even that is an overstatement.

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So I don't I don't really get it.

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I think we should just play this video over and over again like every day.

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I think it's pretty funny.

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Yeah, we need to.

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Yeah, it's like it's looking like I mean, I recognize that none of them like has like

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something that, you know, kind of like it's an interesting technological or, you know,

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like a blockchain issue that drivechain kind of do not do not cover.

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It's so perfect that I think you don't have even a proper sparring partner, you know,

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to kind of debate pro or against the bizarre thing is he's not even really qualified to debate.

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So that's a weird situation to be in.

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Yeah, and you know what, I think what you did is very good, like for from historical

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standpoint and for people who are coming in spaces to I mean, not spaces like Twitter space,

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but in Bitcoin and all this, you know, like cryptographic related blockchains and stuff like to to see actually

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who is knowledgeable and who is not related to to the technology they promote or, you know,

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related to something to Bitcoin, which it's you know, I think I think you are the most knowledgeable person.

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Here from from all of them, you know, like I know I know you other other people who are probably not,

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you know, like publicly speaking or something like that.

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Yeah, I know some knowledgeable people, but I'm saying from all this drama, you know, no no other person.

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I mean, also your your team and Henry and and Austin and Crypto X, you know, you're all I mean, we learn a lot.

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We all learn a lot from in general.

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Plus with with drivechains. Yeah.

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Cool. What do you think is the biggest misconception out there?

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You know, because I've been doing this for a while, so I kind of know, like my own experience.

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But. What do you think other people should know, but they don't?

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Should know, but they don't. Maybe, you know what I I realize that, like the critics, they go all the time.

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Oh, drivechain will change Bitcoin. I see that as a kind of like because drivechain, in fact, or in reality, do not change anything.

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Just ask to be included in the in the mining.

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So everything goes, you know, like using the Bitcoin blockchain.

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And right. You know, I think I think that kind of phrasing, like I think need to be a little bit more kind of a better phrase.

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So people kind of I think that's the biggest kind of what I see from all this, you know,

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critiques that they're saying, oh, we don't want change on Bitcoin.

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We don't want change on Bitcoin. But I think. But I think.

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Sorry, I think that like many people like who are not from that kind, you know, are very positive about drivechains.

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And I was speaking the last space and with Crypto X and.

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I was saying that drivechains probably will open the opportunities for kind of business related sidechains like,

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you know, like private sidechains, which, you know, we disagree with with centralization.

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But from some business standpoint, you have sensitive data that need to be, you know, like publicly shown,

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like accounting or maybe a supply chain and stuff like that.

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So it's I always look more on a from a blockchain adoption, not from a token or coin adoption.

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Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right that people see it as like a change or something, which it's so vague and abstract.

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And of course, what it really is, is it's something that won't affect you at all if you're not using it.

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So in that sense, it's not a change at all. If people who are using it could be a change.

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So it's kind of saying, like, we use electricity for lights and I've invented like a radio or something.

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And it's like, oh, you don't have to plug in the radio. You can keep using your lights, you know?

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Yeah. But people do think, oh, this is my precious, precious Bitcoin.

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We can't change it. But I don't know why that idea is.

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That idea seems to be punching above its weight, which is to say that.

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The idea that we have to prevent Bitcoin from changing.

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And we have to regard things as changes, even if they're not.

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It seems just like really, really deeply ingrained in people.

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They just don't get it.

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I think that affects, in my opinion, all these books that are coming, you know, Bitcoin books and stuff like that.

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Because I see that the White Paper, the Satoshi White Paper, or Satoshi itself, it's like isolated from all that.

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And it's a completely different kind of narrative only around BTC and nothing about the blockchain.

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But I think coming from there, I don't know, I see that as a kind of maybe a cause of all this.

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Yeah, I agree. I think it's sort of like people.

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Well, I always blame the scaling war because the scaling war was won by.

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It was what really happened was the side that hard forked shot themselves in the head and were killed instantly by themselves.

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And so the lesson was like change Bitcoin and you'll be destroyed kind of a thing.

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But I don't think people really realize, like.

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All of the nuances of that situation, like, for example, I always say the large blocker side, large blocks on L1 is always a terrible idea and it was never going to win, I think, because.

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So even if that had been done as a soft fork.

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It would have been like a 10 X greater chance of winning, but it probably.

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Would still have lost because it's hard to say, I think the hard fork is a huge disadvantage and I think there's no reason to do L1 large blocks because you can do them on L2.

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And so it's a complicated mix of reasons.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Like, OK, we say, you know, I'm more for a small block and then you upgrade or add on stuff like, you know, drivechains and et cetera, et cetera.

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But like. I was thinking also like, OK, they say, oh, we don't want change, but.

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Let's see why they're in the space like there is so much like L2s that, you know, include headers in the block in the Bitcoin blockchain through mining and stuff like that.

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Why they don't talk about that?

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That's kind of. You know, my question coming from all the, you know, looking wider, the whole Bitcoin ecosystem, you know.

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So that's that's one kind of why they are against drivechain and say we don't want change, but here they accept all other stuff, you know, which is much.

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They are centralized. I don't say for me, drivechain is decentralized and native to Bitcoin.

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Yeah, of course. One of the purposes of drivechain is to decentralize development, which is to say something is decentralized.

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It's like it's sort of like YouTube where someone can you can have a video that does really, really well, like.

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Gangnam style or something, and then someone can can come out with a new video that's that also does well, maybe for a completely different reason.

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Doesn't make any difference, you know, but the point is a video, a new video can come from anywhere, can come from someone who's brand new.

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And that's what decentralization is sort of supposed to be like, like a new node can come from anywhere.

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Someone is brand new with no pre-existing reputation of any kind. They show up and they can contribute their thing.

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That's certainly not the case now with Bitcoin development.

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I don't think that anyone who is new who showed up would even be able to understand the environment they're in.

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It takes someone like you have to be like, you have to be like super, super smart.

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Like you have to be as smart as like the as Barack, the Ark guy.

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You have to be like super smart. You have to invent something from scratch that uses Blockstream's liquid.

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That's like super, super good. Then you have to join Blockstream.

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Then you have to break lightning a couple of times for fun.

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And then you have to invent Ark. Like that's what it takes for you to like.

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Yeah, that's what it takes to make it. It's like it's like other than that, if you can't pull that

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off, then. I don't know, you can then you can you can join Bitcoin Core and you can do code review

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and you can add tests. To Bitcoin Core and you can maybe like change a matrix factorization so

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that it shaves off a tiny five milliseconds. And then you're a Bitcoin developer.

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But you see, that's very different than someone releasing a new video that gets more views than

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Gangnam Style on YouTube. It's like a very different thing. We want the kind of competition.

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You know, it's not really competition unless someone is crying tears of despair and they lose

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their job and their whole industry is destroyed. That is like that's real competition and other

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competition. Like, you know what I mean? Because like everyone can be forced into like becoming

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like a lightning developer, but it's kind of like. You know, it's not that serious. That's

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like if you say, oh, we have the BBC allows competition. We want to see who can who can

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write the best story on, you know, baby seals at the zoo playing with this beach ball. And

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whoever writes the best story will run. But it has to be exactly about that.

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And you're like, OK, well, that's, you know, that's not really the same thing.

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Yeah. If anyone else wants to come up, please come up and share a question or comment.

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Or go on Twitter and tell all the haters to show up. They definitely won't. Sometimes they do. I

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honestly liked it when whatever Mr. Hoddle came in, that was I thought that was great that his

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phone died. But that was one of the best. That was a good recording. And I'm not only saying

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that because he admitted that I was right about everything we disagreed about mostly. So.

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But no, that was fun. We're having a good time there.

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No, we haven't all commenced. Hey, Paul, what's up? Hey, I'm

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I'm familiar with Henry. I don't know if Henry's here right now. Me and him used to talk on

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Clubhouse with a bunch of the Bitcoiners. Hey, so I have a question for you.

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What? So so I know that you're building or you're trying to build drivechain. I know it's

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obviously difficult. What? So what drivechains would you specifically want to see? Or what would

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you like? What would you find interesting to see? Like what what drivechains would you

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would be useful for people? Because me personally, I'm not a Bitcoin maximalist, but

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I have Bitcoin and like I would like to see more utility to Bitcoin, obviously. So

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obviously I'm supporting what you guys are doing. I think it's awesome. You guys are trying you've

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You guys are trying you've been trying to do this for years. So.

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But yeah, what drivechains would you like to see?

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Well, I personally got involved with this because I had a very, very complex idea

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called that I called Truthcoin back in the day, which was about prediction markets. And you can

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now today you can go to Bitcoinhivemind.com and you can watch a little 20 minute video of me

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explain what it's for. And I for a lot. And but the idea is so weird that I knew that there was

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no way it could possibly come to Bitcoin other than as a sidechain. So that was what got me

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involved in the first place. And at the time, I would never have even thought that I would even

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be working on sidechains. What I thought was, I'll invent this. I wrote this Truthcoin paper.

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It's a long story, but I just thought I'll just write this idea and then someone else

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will do all the work. I scammed myself in classic Bitcoin fashion, because now I'm doing all the

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work also. But at the time, it looked like Blockstream was going to do all the sidechains

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work and then other people would do the. So I'm interested in this prediction market thing,

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which is how I first got into it. But that's a very unique kind of high risk, high reward

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kind of thing. When I got involved with sidechains, there was during the block size dispute

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was heating up. And there was a view at the time that sidechains could never be used for scaling

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because this O and squared thing with the blockchain and also because of the supposed

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impossibility of fraud proofs. But I investigated this and I found that actually fraud proofs are

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completely possible and very easy, in fact. They're already on optimism.

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They're already on optimism. Yeah, it's very easy to do. All the things that people think

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you can't do are very easy to do with. I don't know why. So I think that was just a folk belief.

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And so I wrote about that in my blog and I'm not surprised that

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other people also figured out because it's a very important thing. And the idea of that

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it's optional scaling by a large by a team of like 10 large block sidechains.

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That is a very, very different idea than just naive L1 large block ism.

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For a wide variety of reasons, like some of these I presented and scaling three

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in Milan, October 2016. And some I wrote about in my post Thunder. But now one of the things that

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has happened to me as someone who has been a technical researcher and commentator in the space

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for all these years, years and years and years, it just really seems like actually all the other

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scaling things that aren't the large block sidechain, a team of 10 large block sidechains or

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something similar to that. They really, really seem like they have huge disadvantages. I mean,

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the preoccupation with being able to come always back to L1 in under any circumstances,

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even if it's with a giant, like this weird Merkle tree transaction that takes up a huge amount of

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space, or like a forced channel factory close, which you have to do if anyone is unresponsive,

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which is huge, it's like 20 times at least the size of a normal Bitcoin transaction.

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When L1 fee rates are high or even volatile, I think it just like it really just that idea just

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doesn't work at all. And people just defect into custodial lightning. And I just think that's,

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that's really just giving up. And so I actually have gone from thinking that the large block

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sidechain is a kind of fringe idea to thinking that probably almost all Bitcoin users will be

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using that every day just because payments is easy. People want cheap payments. Payments is

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like, you know, every day when you buy things, you're using payments all the time, whereas how

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often do people use like, you know, smart contracts or even prediction markets or even name registrations

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or things. So my one answer is I have my fringe prediction market project, BitcoinHiveMind.com.

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But I really think the scaling idea is totally overlooked. And what has actually happened is

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the stigma of the block size war has closed people's minds to it. They don't see it for what

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it is, which is a completely new idea. We could call it which you should maybe have just a

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completely different name. Probably it would be better if someone just renamed it instead of large

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block BIP300 sidechain. If people instead renamed it to something like, you know, something instead

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of like ARK or LN would just come up with a completely new name. But I don't know if people

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would get it. But if you go to truthcoin.info, my thunder post, I did give it a name, but I don't

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know if it's not going to sell. So. So, Paul, don't you think that they're, I mean, I'm sure that you've

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been focusing or mentioned also the Zcash sidechain that we also built, which I think, again,

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people try really hard. You have Matt O'Dell and you have people that try Samurai, Wasabi.

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They try so hard to build these little mixers for people, which they're just not as good as having

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one Zcash sidechain that everyone uses. It's always mixing everyone's things. Sender, receiver,

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the amount are all hidden. The nice folks at Zcash did all this work to make the technology

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is improved. It's a thousand times better than what it was back when I first heard about it in,

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you know, 2012 or 2013 or whatever, when Matthew Green published Zerocoin. So yeah, scalability,

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privacy are the big two. And then I personally am interested in this prediction market thing.

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Those are some of my answers. Cool. Yeah. I mean, don't you think that there's some,

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do you think that there's some value with, I'm sure you've been following the rollups and the

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proto-dank sharding and the idea of taking a lot of the work and putting, taking it off chain in

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the form of blobs and then sending a proof back and then making that go fast. Like there is some

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value. Do you think that there is some value to doing a lot of the heavy lifting off chain and

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then bringing the proof back on chain or what are your thoughts on that? Well, I think you're 100%

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correct. But partly that is what BIP300 does in a very loose way, because with BIP300 says the

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stuff is on an L2 chain that's not on L1 and nothing comes back except it's not a proof,

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but it is just, it is more of a conjecture and refutation. As I say, it says, we assert that

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this happens and then it waits for like a challenge. But in a way that's exactly what BIP300

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does in a very, very general way. It's the most general version of that, where it just says,

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you can do whatever you want. We won't ask any questions. The only thing that needs to happen is

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this hash of the withdrawals needs to come back. And of course you need to pay, in merge mining,

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you must pay the L1 miners so that they have a financial incentive to process, you know,

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support the sidechain and process the withdrawals the honorable way. So I see BIP300 as a very

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extreme form of that. And certainly the fact that we don't, the fact that we have only done

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mainly Lightning as the L2 that we have focused on, I think in retrospect will be viewed as

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an enormous mistake in the Bitcoin history. It will be seen as probably like a dark age,

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middle ages or something. And I think that will be, when we do finally have the Renaissance,

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when there is like just people building whatever they want, this will be looked at with regret.

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And so we should be doing all kinds of different L2 things. We currently don't. And one cool thing

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about the drivechain idea is you could try, it's a lot of the stuff that you could have the EVM,

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BIP300 chain, and it could have Ethereum roll-ups on that. And then when people,

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or you have L2 chain, you know, you have a chain with BIP118, you try that, or you have a BIP119

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chain, you have ARK on that. And then people would, they would be using it with Bitcoin.

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And then there would be, it would strengthen, I think the case for like activating,

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it would both strengthen and weaken the case. But I think it would, you would say, well,

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we could do this on L1. After all, we've been doing it on L2 with real money that we would

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have 119 on L2 this whole time and nothing bad has happened because of 119. We've had ARK,

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ARK is the L3 on L2. So why not have ARK the L2 on L1 Bitcoin that has BIP119 on L1?

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So I think that's all, I think it's all related. And if people say, see, I think either way it

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works out favorably because you say, well, maybe it's working out just fine as an ARK is working

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just fine as an L3 of this L2. Well, therefore we don't need to bother L1 with it. And it seems

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because everything's working out just fine. Whereas it also works the other way, where if

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you say, well, we really, really, really need 119 on L1 as quickly as possible. Okay, well,

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now it's still a good thing that you have it on L2. Everyone can see exactly what it does and how

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it works. Software is already being written for it. It has actual users. So now there's much less

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bike shedding. There's much less concern trolling. You just have it on, you already have it existing.

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And so now you just say, okay, this is exactly what we're going to do on L1. We're going to do

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exactly what we have done on L2 on L1. So I think either way, it's better.

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Gotcha. Yeah. It's just so crazy to me that Bitcoin doesn't have any of these things

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yet. To me, to me, it just seems insane. Yeah, we have this weird culture that Bitcoin is already

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perfect. And so it's also like the part of the history, like Ethereum had a very, very scammy

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history. It was very shady at first. It was poorly thought out and it was like all done with like

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Ethereum. They raised money even before it existed. So most of the ETH went to the early

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contributors. It was like this mostly pre-mined altcoin. And it mostly had no use cases at all.

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And it attracted this den of thieves thing. And I think a lot of Bitcoiners formed an opinion

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about it back then in 2015, or even earlier, 2014, because January 2014 was like the announcement.

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And so they formed an opinion of it back then. And then for a while, you could climb the Bitcoin

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technical totem pole by criticizing Ethereum. And so people would do that like, you know,

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to like for clout, including me, I also did it, you know, and many of my critiques were very good.

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So that's the thing is Ethereum really had all these problems. And it really was very experimental.

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And it was wet concrete. But I think, you know, over time, things change, you know,

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like it's been a really long time, you know, nine years have passed since 2014. So

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a lot can happen in a year. And that is, I think the story is just that,

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like, what is someone supposed to do? Like, if you're a researcher, and you're going to try to

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do something, and maybe you are a busybody, and you are, you have no talent, and there are many

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such people. So like, you're, let's say you're a researcher at an Ivy League university, and you,

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you work on protocols, and you want to publish like a Bitcoin thing,

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you publish a Bitcoin thing, and everyone hates it. And then you publish another thing,

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and they hate that. And then you think, well, whatever. And then there's Ethereum. So they

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publish a thing, and they all love it. Now, again, this is poor quality control for the idea,

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because a lot of these ideas really did suck. But it just speaks to the fact that, you know,

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given enough time, and enough evolutionary pressure, you know, of course, most mutations

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cause an organism to die and their children to die. But it's the few successful ones that have,

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you know, created all the life on planet Earth. So that we see today.

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I think, I think that everybody, I was just gonna say, like, I think that everybody has,

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like, in 2017, 2018, I think that, I think it was pretty reasonable to say that, like, yeah,

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there was no value on Ethereum, right? Like, there was, like, I mean, people were literally selling

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time machines, like, like, actually, like, they were actually selling time machines on the

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blockchain, right? But now, like, you fast forward to 2023. And like, now we're talking about, like,

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I mean, there's like, a lot of people that are like, bringing, like, trying to bring in real

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world assets, like makers having tokenized treasuries. And like, there's a lot of like,

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you know, real things happening now, in my opinion. And I would just, I would just like to

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see and there and there's still obviously, like scams, of course, right? Like, yeah, like, that's

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not gonna, that's not gonna go away. But I think that some of the the use cases, I'd like to see

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that on, you know, Bitcoin, which has, you know, certain properties that Ethereum doesn't have,

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right? The world changes, right? That's how it works.

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Well, I think there's also the concept of a spectrum of decentralization and and a niche.

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And by that, I mean, people will say, like Bitcoiners will say, well, Ethereum's centralized,

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you know, their level that critique at Ethereum. And it is centralized compared to BTC.

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And in many profound ways, it is, but it's kind of like, what if you compared Ethereum to,

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like, you know, Visa, something that has a mailing address and an HQ and a CEO that you can arrest.

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And like, something that you could just they could just pass a law like banning,

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just ban, like, a thing, you know, you're passing a law banning TikTok or something, you know, it's

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like, if you if you had like a big, imagine you had like a piece of graph paper, or something.

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Or it was like, you had it as a football field, you know, and it's 100 yards, or it's like a

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percentage point or something where you're saying, the most decentralized thing in the world would be

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like a really, really small block version of Bitcoin, that was, you know, in white, widely

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distributed already or something. So that's like as decentralized as you could get. And then fully

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centralized would just be like any, anything that was like WeChat pay or something fully incorporated

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and client server, absolutely, in an absolute sense. And it's kind of like, you know, where

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would Ethereum fall? And where would Bitcoin and Ethereum fall on that? I think like, you know,

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Bitcoin would be like on like, the five yard line, and maybe Ethereum would be like on the 12 yard

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line or something like that. So it's like, it's a significant difference. But Ethereum was very,

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through luck or through strategy. Ethereum just kind of decided, listen, we're not we know that

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we won't if we try to be as decentralized as Bitcoin, we'll lose. So they said, we'll just be

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more centralized, and we'll try to reap all the advantages of that that we can.

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And you know, a lot of people don't care, of course. And there's also other ways in which

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you can push the envelope if you're willing to make changes. So they have a strategy that

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involves that. And that strategy by itself is not enough to defeat Bitcoin or even come close. And

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I think a lot of Ethereum's design is terrible. And I still think it's kind of funny that because

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of the halting problem, you have to pay fees, even if your transaction doesn't go through.

402
00:39:28,438 --> 00:39:34,598
It's like, you know, the worst. It's like, you know, it's terrible in many ways. But you know,

403
00:39:34,598 --> 00:39:42,358
just with enough growth and enough time and enough just being allowed to exist. That would be a lot.

404
00:39:42,358 --> 00:39:49,399
That's enough for it's enough to eventually become popular enough to challenge Bitcoin. And I don't

405
00:39:49,399 --> 00:39:54,039
understand we have taken a very, we've taken the wrong attitude towards that. I'm just trying to

406
00:39:54,919 --> 00:39:59,558
say that it's the same Ethereum that was in 2015. And we just feel sorry for anyone who

407
00:39:59,558 --> 00:40:04,358
falls for it. But really, it's just something that has made it very different trade offs.

408
00:40:04,358 --> 00:40:05,879
In Ethereum, you still have like,

409
00:40:06,706 --> 00:40:12,146
people's private keys controlling their coins. There's no, you don't necessarily when you join

410
00:40:12,146 --> 00:40:16,946
Ethereum and you make a new ETH address, you don't have to type in like your name,

411
00:40:16,946 --> 00:40:25,906
your your address, your social security number. So it's not true that it's if you had to sort them

412
00:40:25,906 --> 00:40:31,586
into buckets of centralized and decentralized. And as long as like, you know, Chase is in that

413
00:40:32,546 --> 00:40:40,226
group, or WeChat pays in that group, or Visa is in that group, then Ethereum is sorted into the

414
00:40:40,226 --> 00:40:46,706
decentralized bucket. And it's just, it's just it's a, it's different trade offs, and it's

415
00:40:46,706 --> 00:40:50,546
trade offs that we wouldn't make. But so I'm trying to say is there's a spectrum. And so the

416
00:40:50,546 --> 00:40:59,825
idea is, are we as Bitcoiners going to immediately forfeit those users, the users who prefer that

417
00:41:00,546 --> 00:41:05,586
location on the spectrum? Why and why do that when with sidechains, we could just occupy

418
00:41:05,586 --> 00:41:10,866
every single space on the spectrum? You know, we can just allow people that should go in

419
00:41:11,506 --> 00:41:16,786
and sacrifice some decentralization while still using 21 million bitcoins.

420
00:41:17,826 --> 00:41:24,546
So yeah, I don't really understand why we do it this way. And back in 2015, there was

421
00:41:24,546 --> 00:41:30,386
RSK Rootstock was created with the whole purpose of just replicating Ethereum on Bitcoin. And that

422
00:41:30,386 --> 00:41:38,146
was, that was too loud. Cheers. Everyone was for that back then. So. So it's I don't know

423
00:41:38,146 --> 00:41:48,786
why things are so different now. But I think it's a mistake. Hello, Mr. Ethan. We have a giant purple

424
00:41:48,786 --> 00:42:02,866
E. Okay. Um, I've, like, I've been trying to understand the way that that that BIP300

425
00:42:03,746 --> 00:42:11,426
proposes that you would be able to transfer the control of a Bitcoin, you know, with a gated

426
00:42:11,426 --> 00:42:23,106
redemption. But like, if I if I was to transfer my Bitcoin through a BIP300, like block,

427
00:42:23,986 --> 00:42:30,225
and on something that like, let's say had had turned complete scripting. And then I and I paid

428
00:42:30,225 --> 00:42:40,386
someone with that, that like turn complete bitcoins, sidechain, then I would still be able

429
00:42:40,386 --> 00:42:49,665
to induce a redemption back to main chain. Correct? No, this is exactly what I I sacrifice.

430
00:42:49,665 --> 00:42:57,025
This is the this is the big trade off I make. So I sacrifice that. And but in return, you get

431
00:42:57,826 --> 00:43:02,706
like absurd amounts of benefits. And in my view is that the sacrifice is actually very small if

432
00:43:02,706 --> 00:43:08,626
you marginally think about it. But but what happens with BIP300 is you pay the coins to

433
00:43:08,626 --> 00:43:14,626
something that only miners can unlock. But the miners themselves can only unlock it in a very,

434
00:43:14,626 --> 00:43:18,785
very, very difficult way that involves a lot of them cooperating over a long period of time

435
00:43:18,785 --> 00:43:27,346
over something they pre agreed to do. So it's, it's, it's the whole the whole point of BIP300

436
00:43:27,346 --> 00:43:33,585
is to make it very difficult for miners to take these the coins or send them to any direction

437
00:43:33,585 --> 00:43:39,346
other than the direction that the sidechain wants them to go. So I don't know if I'm explaining it

438
00:43:39,346 --> 00:43:46,225
very well. But Oh, but you cannot, you cannot unilaterally withdraw to L1, I sacrifice that.

439
00:43:46,225 --> 00:43:51,906
And because I don't know when you joined, but I was saying that's actually trying to support that

440
00:43:51,906 --> 00:43:56,945
and service that is I think, really killing lightning network and even something like arc,

441
00:43:57,665 --> 00:44:02,865
where because it's, you're very vulnerable to L1 fees changing and you're like, the whole

442
00:44:02,865 --> 00:44:07,186
point of supporting that is this huge, huge draw that actually ends up making it kind of not really

443
00:44:07,186 --> 00:44:13,346
work. And at the end of the day, the miners can actually steal from those things anyway, by just

444
00:44:13,346 --> 00:44:19,106
since they can censor the justice transaction in ln. So since they can already do that, I'm kind

445
00:44:19,106 --> 00:44:25,826
of sacrificing something that's already basically been sacrificed. This is my point of view. But of

446
00:44:25,826 --> 00:44:29,665
course, my point of view is a very fringe point of view that most people don't totally agree with

447
00:44:29,665 --> 00:44:36,225
yet. But nonetheless, I think it's right. So is this making any sense so far? No. Yeah, I mean,

448
00:44:37,026 --> 00:44:46,225
you know, I, I was thinking that, you know, it would take, like, it was my understanding that

449
00:44:46,225 --> 00:44:53,745
you would you could very easily transfer any of your Bitcoin to a sidechain. But that mean you

450
00:44:53,745 --> 00:45:01,266
could take it back, but it would only it would take 90 days. What you do what happened what it

451
00:45:01,266 --> 00:45:07,905
literally is happening on L1 is the coins are spent into something that only the miners can

452
00:45:07,905 --> 00:45:16,146
unspend via this long 90 day thing. But the issue is the design or the intent, how you would take

453
00:45:16,146 --> 00:45:23,505
it back would be you put the coins in on the sidechain, you would do whatever the sidechain is

454
00:45:23,505 --> 00:45:28,146
doing that makes it a BIP300 is like a BIP300 library, you would initiate the withdrawal over

455
00:45:28,146 --> 00:45:33,745
there. The sidechain would add you to the list of people. This is like people getting in line to

456
00:45:33,745 --> 00:45:39,426
get on a train or something. Okay, you're at you're added on this is on L2 L1's not seeing any

457
00:45:39,426 --> 00:45:45,266
of this. And then when it's time for the next train to leave, because there's only one globally

458
00:45:45,266 --> 00:45:53,106
for the whole sidechain. But it's next to leave it loads up like 20,000 passengers, yourself

459
00:45:53,106 --> 00:45:58,546
included, it loads you into the one transaction that's going to pay everyone out, which is like a

460
00:45:58,546 --> 00:46:06,065
big fan out coin join style type of thing, which is like, it's going to pay this one txid that's

461
00:46:06,065 --> 00:46:12,465
going to pay everyone out. So it's the sidechain will do that. And the sidechain software is

462
00:46:12,465 --> 00:46:18,146
automatically doing that. And this is all identical for everyone is on L2. And when the sidechain

463
00:46:18,146 --> 00:46:26,866
does that, it will calculate the txid that does that. And that is this critical hash that has to

464
00:46:26,866 --> 00:46:32,546
take three to six months, whether that's included on L1 Coinbase, that is what gets upvoted,

465
00:46:33,266 --> 00:46:38,785
or cross chain confirmed, or whatever you want to call it for three to six months. And when that

466
00:46:38,785 --> 00:46:42,386
when that goes through, then that can be included on L1, and then you get paid out.

467
00:46:42,866 --> 00:46:50,146
So it's not really ever anything that you do unilaterally to get the money back. It is

468
00:46:50,146 --> 00:46:55,266
always the miners who put this thing in L1. And the design is just supposed to be

469
00:46:56,945 --> 00:47:01,345
the miners have no it's because it's pigeonholed into one thing every three months,

470
00:47:02,225 --> 00:47:08,866
that it's just too awkward, for lack of a better word, for miners to put a hash in there that is

471
00:47:08,866 --> 00:47:13,986
not the single hash that is reported by the sidechain for that three month period. So there's

472
00:47:13,986 --> 00:47:20,465
only one sidechain reported by sidechain for everyone. One hash one withdrawal hash for like

473
00:47:20,465 --> 00:47:26,785
January, February, March. It's just there. And then there's only one there's only space for one

474
00:47:26,785 --> 00:47:32,706
withdrawal on L1. You know, and you can try different hashes and try to get them up. But

475
00:47:32,706 --> 00:47:41,266
ultimately, only one will be able to get the 13,000 votes. So that's the the idea is that

476
00:47:41,266 --> 00:47:46,706
the miners initiate the withdrawal. And the withdrawal is defined by a hash, the sidechain

477
00:47:47,905 --> 00:47:53,426
has determined what that hash should be already. And those hashes, are they either match or they

478
00:47:53,426 --> 00:47:59,106
don't? If they don't, the sidechain is dead, probably. And possibly the whole drivechain

479
00:47:59,106 --> 00:48:05,505
idea is dead also. But if they match, then everything works perfectly fine. And there is no

480
00:48:07,345 --> 00:48:12,706
there's no need to support you have like, total freedom to do whatever you want with the coins.

481
00:48:13,665 --> 00:48:22,386
I see. So that that that means that the sidechain, in theory could also that I mean,

482
00:48:22,386 --> 00:48:31,426
depending on how it's run, could deny they could they could deny you the right to redeem them back?

483
00:48:32,225 --> 00:48:37,826
Yes, if the sidechain is very badly designed, like one example is what if the sidechain is so badly

484
00:48:37,826 --> 00:48:43,425
designed that the software never runs or is never even produced, then no one will ever know what

485
00:48:43,425 --> 00:48:48,865
this hash is supposed to be, or who has tried to withdraw, and no one will know the fate of these

486
00:48:48,865 --> 00:48:54,625
coins. And then, and then another thing is, of course, they could program something so that on L2,

487
00:48:55,505 --> 00:49:02,146
this could be like a very centralized sidechain, there's like an admin key that can take people's

488
00:49:02,146 --> 00:49:08,706
coins. If there is such a thing, they take the coin, your coins, and then they initiate the

489
00:49:08,706 --> 00:49:15,105
withdrawal to their L1 address. And then they join the line with your coins, but the sidechain

490
00:49:15,105 --> 00:49:20,466
will calculate for everyone, they'll say, here's the next people getting on the bus, or getting on

491
00:49:20,466 --> 00:49:27,266
the train. And then you will be, you will have really no recourse in that particular situation.

492
00:49:27,266 --> 00:49:33,425
But this is, of course, the this is desirable, because you're the one you start on L1 with

493
00:49:33,425 --> 00:49:38,146
your coins, and then it's kind of like choosing to go to a hotel or something. You know, you start in

494
00:49:38,146 --> 00:49:44,466
your own house on L1. And the sidechain developers, they have to convince you, no deposit to this

495
00:49:44,466 --> 00:49:49,826
sidechain, it's going to be great. If they don't, you just don't do it. Or maybe you put $20 in and

496
00:49:49,826 --> 00:49:55,985
you experiment when you say this is going pretty well. And then you put more, more money, they

497
00:49:55,985 --> 00:50:02,305
accumulate reputation, but it's the it's the fact that the sidechain developer will be blamed.

498
00:50:03,346 --> 00:50:09,906
That is the key, because that is how we have competition among different chains, which is

499
00:50:09,906 --> 00:50:14,226
exactly what we want. Yeah, all right. That actually that actually makes a lot more sense to

500
00:50:14,226 --> 00:50:23,985
me. I appreciate it. Sure thing. Thanks for your question. Okay. Tryptonomics. Yes. Hello.

501
00:50:27,826 --> 00:50:30,706
I remember you from last week, I think, or a week before.

502
00:50:30,786 --> 00:50:36,625
Yeah, I'm sorry. What did you say in that last part? Did you say SOL?

503
00:50:38,625 --> 00:50:39,425
SOL?

504
00:50:46,146 --> 00:50:53,745
Yeah, anyway. Hello. So yeah, this new this hashing method once every three months and then the

505
00:50:54,706 --> 00:51:05,026
matching of it and reducing the potentiality of tokens being redirected and essentially reducing

506
00:51:05,026 --> 00:51:12,545
theft. That's great. So I was thinking how I remember colored coins. And if this is off topic,

507
00:51:12,545 --> 00:51:20,466
I'll move on. But I think when NFTs are so popular because they're just popular and people don't

508
00:51:20,466 --> 00:51:28,945
understand why they're popular. And then some people actually understand the benefits of them

509
00:51:29,586 --> 00:51:36,226
if they could actually be used in the real world. But in terms of on-chain, colored coins were

510
00:51:36,226 --> 00:51:41,425
interesting because they just colored a portion of Bitcoin to represent the real world asset on

511
00:51:41,425 --> 00:51:47,745
chain. And so we had well, you know, we had that area on chain that was essentially highlighted

512
00:51:47,745 --> 00:52:00,226
to represent the real world assets on chain and designate the NFT. And so with drivechains,

513
00:52:01,026 --> 00:52:05,026
essentially, drivechains are doing the same thing, but with this new matching

514
00:52:05,586 --> 00:52:09,586
methodology. Is that right? That you were just describing?

515
00:52:12,146 --> 00:52:17,026
I would say actually ordinals are very similar to colored coins. What happens with

516
00:52:17,026 --> 00:52:21,826
drivechains, you really just spend them into a script so that the coins themselves are they

517
00:52:21,826 --> 00:52:30,625
are highlighted, as you say, but there's a specific like UTXO that is just the UTXO that is in,

518
00:52:31,425 --> 00:52:39,745
is paid to OPNOP5 or, you know, whatever. And that those are all the coins that are in sidechain slot

519
00:52:39,745 --> 00:52:45,266
number three or something. So if there's like 30,000 coins in there, they are in that. But

520
00:52:45,266 --> 00:52:49,666
they are protected by this opcode. So you could think of that as kind of a highlighted thing,

521
00:52:49,666 --> 00:52:55,826
but it really is, if you try to withdraw those coins, like without going through the 13,000

522
00:52:56,545 --> 00:53:02,786
ACK counter thing, then you will not, then they will invalidate the block. So,

523
00:53:04,146 --> 00:53:11,346
so it's a little different than colored coins, which had no, had no, had no teeth. It had no

524
00:53:11,346 --> 00:53:18,466
purchase on the L1 block validity rules at all. But it's sort of simple to steal.

525
00:53:19,826 --> 00:53:25,745
Well, yeah, there was just like the, it wasn't like, with colored coins, it was not the case

526
00:53:25,745 --> 00:53:32,786
that if you, for example, mixed a red coin with a blue coin, it would like be an invalid transaction.

527
00:53:33,666 --> 00:53:39,505
Sure. L1 would just do that. And then you'd be like, whoops, I destroyed the coins. Which is

528
00:53:39,505 --> 00:53:43,425
kind of funny thing about Ordinal is it's kind of solved that problem, but it also had other

529
00:53:43,425 --> 00:53:50,146
problems. But it's kind of like the coins, they have a, there's a particular way of reordering

530
00:53:50,146 --> 00:53:56,226
them. So you can always get the color back was my understanding, but apparently now they

531
00:53:57,266 --> 00:54:03,826
have changed that because of something else. So. Okay. It's similar.

532
00:54:03,985 --> 00:54:09,505
Yeah. But, but NFTs on, on Bitcoin via drivechains.

533
00:54:13,826 --> 00:54:19,266
One, in terms of theft, it's, it's, it's a lot more difficult to, to,

534
00:54:21,105 --> 00:54:27,745
to initiate theft and redirect the wallet addresses and the tokens. But how about actually

535
00:54:28,305 --> 00:54:37,105
writing an NFT to a real world asset and representing that via Bitcoin on a drive

536
00:54:37,105 --> 00:54:44,706
chain? Is it going to be less or more difficult via a drivechain? Like if we want to represent

537
00:54:44,706 --> 00:54:54,065
whatever that is. My vision for the right way to do this is to make, I think we don't really

538
00:54:54,065 --> 00:55:00,545
want this to be on the L1 chain, even though it already is, of course, because of colored coins,

539
00:55:01,185 --> 00:55:09,906
BRC20, et cetera, Ordinal's inscriptions, RGB, et cetera. So I think we don't want it to be

540
00:55:10,545 --> 00:55:16,305
on L1 and we should build it. And since it's already possible on every single chain,

541
00:55:16,305 --> 00:55:19,985
it's already possible. You know what I mean? Like if you, we built the large block sidechain for

542
00:55:19,985 --> 00:55:28,226
scaling or the Zcash sidechain, you could have Ordinal's over there, you know, and so people can,

543
00:55:28,226 --> 00:55:34,146
they can already do it on any chain. So my thought is people really like doing this.

544
00:55:35,185 --> 00:55:41,266
They're not going to stop anytime soon. We'll build them their own chain just for this, where

545
00:55:41,266 --> 00:55:47,185
Bitcoin is always the money unit and Bitcoin always pays the transaction fees. We'll domesticate all

546
00:55:47,185 --> 00:55:52,545
of this, you know, this weird activity. And we'll put all these in a little zoo and we'll make a nice

547
00:55:52,545 --> 00:55:55,826
piece of software where people can click a button and they can upload an image. They can put their

548
00:55:55,826 --> 00:56:03,826
Pepe or their funny image in, their ape or whatever they want to put in there. And this is

549
00:56:03,826 --> 00:56:09,586
called BitAssets. And we have a version of that that we've already made, but it's kind of clunky.

550
00:56:10,386 --> 00:56:17,666
So I was going to just make a chain where you, you send BTC back and forth. So the BTC would be

551
00:56:17,666 --> 00:56:22,466
how you register a new asset. You pay like a tiny amount, you pay like a normal transaction fee,

552
00:56:22,466 --> 00:56:28,625
you know, to create, you know, a crypto coin or whatever, whatever you want to make

553
00:56:29,505 --> 00:56:36,865
or something or shares of GE or representatives of a certain bond or a token that represents

554
00:56:36,865 --> 00:56:43,026
ownership in a club or concert tickets, you know, Taylor Swift tickets or something or Super Bowl

555
00:56:43,026 --> 00:56:50,146
tickets. And so you make those things and over there and people buy and sell them with BTC.

556
00:56:50,146 --> 00:56:53,586
And it's all like, you have like a DEX over there and you have all, you do all that stuff over there.

557
00:56:54,945 --> 00:57:02,386
Then people can take BTC from that L2 back to L1 if they don't want to dwell on the BitAssets

558
00:57:02,386 --> 00:57:06,466
sidechain. And that's my, that's kind of like how I think it would work. So we'd have this sidechain

559
00:57:06,625 --> 00:57:14,625
that just does all that topical sidechains and one for, you know, basically NFTs, BitAssets,

560
00:57:14,625 --> 00:57:19,906
whatever you want to call it, colored coins. But during the blind merge mining process,

561
00:57:19,906 --> 00:57:24,786
wouldn't it just kind of clone the NFTs on that blockchain anyway? Like, and sometimes

562
00:57:24,786 --> 00:57:33,985
the native token on an altcoin, on an altchain is not an ERC20, for instance, it's an ERC721.

563
00:57:34,705 --> 00:57:45,906
So, wouldn't Bitcoin just, wouldn't the NFT just be denominated in Bitcoin anyway,

564
00:57:45,906 --> 00:57:51,105
via blind merge mining in that instance? Well, blind merge mining is how you find

565
00:57:51,105 --> 00:58:00,705
the next block. And so it's also optional. And so you can, I think everyone will use it though,

566
00:58:00,705 --> 00:58:07,585
but I think that it's sort of optional. And the separation of miner from sidechain node is

567
00:58:07,585 --> 00:58:14,946
even optional if you're using BIP301, it could be the same person. And it will, as far as long

568
00:58:14,946 --> 00:58:19,426
as the node is very cheap, it won't make any difference. So, no one will actually use it

569
00:58:19,426 --> 00:58:24,865
unless the node becomes expensive, the separation idea. So it won't change that, those types of

570
00:58:24,865 --> 00:58:33,186
things about it. And as for being 721 versus ERC20, that's why I think we should just build

571
00:58:33,186 --> 00:58:38,946
a special purpose chain that already has it all predefined. And I think that then it will be

572
00:58:38,946 --> 00:58:48,625
standardized forever. And I think the chain itself, at the chain level, it should support

573
00:58:48,625 --> 00:58:55,426
a lot of these things. State and which ones are for sale, for how much, which ones are being

574
00:58:55,426 --> 00:59:03,825
auctioned off, have liquidity. So that's what I think. I think that's the way to go. But even if

575
00:59:03,825 --> 00:59:10,225
you don't go that way, we should keep in mind that people will probably obtain this idea in various

576
00:59:10,225 --> 00:59:17,745
other formats because it's just such a popular idea anyway. It's just like you said, colored

577
00:59:17,745 --> 00:59:28,705
coins and whatnot. Okay. I mean, that would increase the fees as well, right? There's an

578
00:59:31,186 --> 00:59:38,306
Layer 2 designated specifically for the purposes of NFTs. So let's say we want to transfer a

579
00:59:38,306 --> 00:59:46,306
portfolio with ERC20s, for instance. Sorry, I'm using so much Ethereum, but ERC20s and ERC721s,

580
00:59:46,946 --> 00:59:54,946
we have to pay the miners double or yeah, you have to pay the miners double to process.

581
00:59:56,146 --> 00:59:59,666
Yeah, but I don't really understand why do you bring that up though? Because

582
01:00:00,786 --> 01:00:06,146
anything you transfer, you have to pay a blockchain transaction fee for.

583
01:00:07,289 --> 01:00:21,289
Yeah, I was just thinking maybe there's a way to, if you have a portfolio that you want to transfer, if you can do it all in a single transaction, even though the tokens are separate contracts.

584
01:00:22,289 --> 01:00:38,289
Well, probably in the BitAssets spec that I wrote a long time ago, that spec, they're all just outputs. They're all just like their own UTXOs, kind of.

585
01:00:38,289 --> 01:00:42,289
So you just select them all and then you pay them out. And actually, it all just works.

586
01:00:43,289 --> 01:00:51,289
Easier said than done, but it all just works automatically because it's tracking output type. The database is tracking the output type.

587
01:00:51,289 --> 01:01:04,289
And so that was a design I had. I don't know if anyone who knows what design would be popular among developers and users and things, but that's kind of designed and built with that.

588
01:01:04,289 --> 01:01:14,289
And so in that way, they would all be the same, but the overhead that you save is not that much because the overhead of a given transaction is not that much in a Bitcoin UTXO-style transaction.

589
01:01:14,289 --> 01:01:20,289
It's really just the inputs are most of the transactions, the inputs.

590
01:01:21,289 --> 01:01:23,289
All right. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you.

591
01:01:24,289 --> 01:01:25,289
Yeah, sure. Thank you.

592
01:01:35,289 --> 01:01:44,289
Cool. Great. Well, this space, you know, is only possible because of people coming up and asking questions.

593
01:01:45,289 --> 01:01:54,289
So feel free to come up. Mike in space, come up. Haven't heard from Mike in space in so long.

594
01:01:55,289 --> 01:02:02,289
Come up and tell us about Ordinal's drama. Or don't. You know, whatever he's up to.

595
01:02:02,289 --> 01:02:07,289
May I request Skydoge to come up as they've adopted BIP300 already?

596
01:02:07,289 --> 01:02:11,289
You have the crazy altcoin that has adopted BIP300.

597
01:02:12,289 --> 01:02:16,289
And I have very, very funny GIFs.

598
01:02:18,289 --> 01:02:22,289
Which chain is adopted BIP300 now?

599
01:02:25,289 --> 01:02:27,289
Skydoge is an altcoin.

600
01:02:27,289 --> 01:02:29,289
They adopt that altcoin.

601
01:02:35,289 --> 01:02:37,289
And they hang out in the drivechain telegram.

602
01:02:37,289 --> 01:02:39,289
Oh, now we have a Mobius strip.

603
01:02:40,289 --> 01:02:42,289
It's a one dimensional shape, everyone.

604
01:02:46,289 --> 01:02:47,289
Hello.

605
01:02:47,289 --> 01:02:54,289
We can't hear you at all.

606
01:02:54,289 --> 01:02:57,289
Oh, and it's not, of course, it's not a one dimensional shape. It's a one sided shape.

607
01:02:58,289 --> 01:02:59,289
That's my mistake.

608
01:03:00,289 --> 01:03:02,289
You can have a multidimensional one sided shape, right?

609
01:03:03,289 --> 01:03:04,289
Absolutely.

610
01:03:05,289 --> 01:03:10,289
There's only one side. It's a, you know, taupe or something.

611
01:03:11,289 --> 01:03:13,289
Actually, Unahedron, right?

612
01:03:13,289 --> 01:03:19,289
If I remember my obscure Greek versions of math terms.

613
01:03:20,289 --> 01:03:28,289
I think Hedra, Hedra meant like a dodecahedron or that meant like multi, it's like 12 seated or something.

614
01:03:29,289 --> 01:03:31,289
Hedra was seat, I think.

615
01:03:31,289 --> 01:03:33,289
So that's just faced, multi-faced.

616
01:03:36,289 --> 01:03:38,289
Anyway, Mobius, you are muted.

617
01:03:38,289 --> 01:03:41,289
So, and we can't hear you. Can anyone hear him? I can't hear him.

618
01:03:43,289 --> 01:03:44,289
No.

619
01:03:46,289 --> 01:03:48,289
Well, you may need a new microphone.

620
01:03:49,289 --> 01:03:50,289
Skydoge.

621
01:03:53,289 --> 01:03:57,289
Maybe you go down and come back again. Maybe it's the app.

622
01:03:58,289 --> 01:04:05,289
I think Skydoge speaks only the language of GIFs and references to N64 speed running.

623
01:04:05,289 --> 01:04:06,289
Speed running.

624
01:04:28,289 --> 01:04:30,289
Well, he's the strong and silent type.

625
01:04:31,289 --> 01:04:33,289
Maybe to break the silence.

626
01:04:33,289 --> 01:04:39,289
Maybe I can ask a question like regarding the side, the drivechain nodes.

627
01:04:39,289 --> 01:04:44,289
Can you kind of like shortly explain what then?

628
01:04:44,289 --> 01:04:56,289
I mean, like for people to understand, like, you know, what did the nodes, like how many sidechains can support one node?

629
01:04:56,289 --> 01:04:59,289
Is it any incentive running the node and stuff like that?

630
01:04:59,289 --> 01:05:07,289
You know, like just general, you know, about the nodes, because we all the time focus about this, you know,

631
01:05:07,289 --> 01:05:11,289
ping pong going for the L1 and drivechains.

632
01:05:11,289 --> 01:05:20,289
But, you know, I think nodes on the drivechain nodes are also important to be explained properly.

633
01:05:21,289 --> 01:05:26,289
Well, do you mean L1 node that enforces BIP300 or do you mean a node of the sidechain?

634
01:05:26,289 --> 01:05:30,289
No, no, node of the sidechain.

635
01:05:30,289 --> 01:05:41,289
Is it when you run the drivechain node, is it only can support only one sidechain or it's a specific only for one sidechain?

636
01:05:41,289 --> 01:05:44,289
Or you can run multiple sidechains on one node?

637
01:05:44,289 --> 01:05:51,289
Any software application can call other software applications like, you know, and depend on them.

638
01:05:51,289 --> 01:05:57,289
So it's kind of like how I really shouldn't give a weird example like this.

639
01:05:57,289 --> 01:06:05,289
But I'm going to try to say like, you know, like in gaming, like everyone's running like Microsoft C++ redistributable or something.

640
01:06:05,289 --> 01:06:09,289
Or like what is the other thing everyone has to run?

641
01:06:09,289 --> 01:06:11,289
JavaScript runtime environment, you know.

642
01:06:11,289 --> 01:06:13,289
So I don't know if that's that's not very relatable, I think.

643
01:06:13,289 --> 01:06:20,289
But you could run a piece of software that loads two different sidechain nodes.

644
01:06:20,289 --> 01:06:25,289
But other than that, it's it's one sidechain node per sidechain itself.

645
01:06:25,289 --> 01:06:31,289
So, OK, yeah, you know, it's like the way it works is.

646
01:06:31,289 --> 01:06:37,289
It's like, you know, it's like you it's like you sit down at a restaurant, an Italian restaurant and you get the bread for free.

647
01:06:37,289 --> 01:06:39,289
That's like the L1 Bitcoin node.

648
01:06:39,289 --> 01:06:42,289
Everyone gets the bread and then you order whatever you want.

649
01:06:42,289 --> 01:06:47,289
So like some people want to order the lasagna or whatever.

650
01:06:47,289 --> 01:06:53,289
And they order the lasagna and someone else orders only the soup.

651
01:06:53,289 --> 01:06:59,289
So and then at the end, everyone, if you pay, if you bought lasagna, you pay for the lasagna.

652
01:06:59,289 --> 01:07:06,289
And if you you pay in the form of running the node, you must run the node on your computer.

653
01:07:06,289 --> 01:07:08,289
You must use the CPU and bandwidth resources.

654
01:07:08,289 --> 01:07:12,289
So if you run like a Bitcoin SV node, it's going to cost a lot.

655
01:07:12,289 --> 01:07:21,289
But then you get the lobster ravioli or whatever it is, you know, the filet mignon.

656
01:07:21,289 --> 01:07:25,289
So and then people are like, Paul, how does this all work? It's amazing.

657
01:07:25,289 --> 01:07:29,289
And I'm like, well, no, the people who are running the nodes, they're the really the ones paying.

658
01:07:29,289 --> 01:07:32,289
All I am doing is having everyone sit at the same table.

659
01:07:32,289 --> 01:07:38,289
And I say, if you didn't order the filet mignon, then you don't have to pay for it.

660
01:07:38,289 --> 01:07:42,289
And then people say, Paul, this idea is so complicated.

661
01:07:42,289 --> 01:07:45,289
It'll take 10 years for anyone to understand it.

662
01:07:45,289 --> 01:07:49,289
And then I'm just like, OK, I guess.

663
01:07:49,289 --> 01:07:54,289
So I don't know if that helps, but, yeah, it's like each sidechain is its own node.

664
01:07:54,289 --> 01:08:04,289
I think it's plausible that someone will eventually release a piece of software that actually contains every node to be like the big thing.

665
01:08:04,289 --> 01:08:10,289
But it'll always be possible to run Bitcoin Core only.

666
01:08:10,289 --> 01:08:21,289
Yeah, like if let's say there is a Zcash sidechain, the node what I want to run will be only for the Zcash sidechain.

667
01:08:21,289 --> 01:08:26,289
If I want to support other sidechain, I need to run another node.

668
01:08:26,289 --> 01:08:29,289
You download that node and that node has its own blockchain.

669
01:08:29,289 --> 01:08:33,289
So it's a new node, new blockchain, new blocks, new UTXO set.

670
01:08:33,289 --> 01:08:34,289
Yeah.

671
01:08:34,289 --> 01:08:40,289
And if you download our software, then you'll see it for yourself because the little launcher will open.

672
01:08:40,289 --> 01:08:44,289
It'll ask you like which sidechain nodes do you want to download.

673
01:08:44,289 --> 01:08:46,289
They're like downloading plugins a little bit.

674
01:08:46,289 --> 01:08:48,289
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

675
01:08:48,289 --> 01:08:49,289
So that's how it works.

676
01:08:49,289 --> 01:08:54,289
The launcher is very nicely done and very nice UI.

677
01:08:54,289 --> 01:09:02,289
And I downloaded also the full blockchain, which was very fine.

678
01:09:02,289 --> 01:09:09,289
It was interesting like the test CPU mining of the test tokens or coins.

679
01:09:09,289 --> 01:09:11,289
Yeah, that's fun, right?

680
01:09:11,289 --> 01:09:12,289
Yeah.

681
01:09:12,289 --> 01:09:13,289
Sure, why not?

682
01:09:13,289 --> 01:09:14,289
It's fun.

683
01:09:14,289 --> 01:09:15,289
I think it's great.

684
01:09:15,289 --> 01:09:16,289
And I like doing that.

685
01:09:16,289 --> 01:09:25,289
We have the big version, which is like kind of a more serious test, which has the full Bitcoin history and everything.

686
01:09:25,289 --> 01:09:27,289
And then we have the play money.

687
01:09:27,289 --> 01:09:33,289
The launcher just does play money, resets the blockchain for everyone.

688
01:09:33,289 --> 01:09:37,289
So there's really no overhead.

689
01:09:37,289 --> 01:09:40,289
You can just start clicking on things pretty quickly.

690
01:09:40,289 --> 01:09:45,289
Although that one also that will find a block every second or every two seconds or so.

691
01:09:45,289 --> 01:09:52,289
So if you just leave it on and come back the next day, it will just like have been adding so many blocks that it will.

692
01:09:52,289 --> 01:09:55,289
I think it eventually has some kind of performance issue.

693
01:09:55,289 --> 01:09:57,289
Yeah, it's a quick.

694
01:09:57,289 --> 01:10:07,289
Yeah, I think I think the launcher when was the last week I think was not available to download the sidechains.

695
01:10:07,289 --> 01:10:10,289
But I think now is. So I will.

696
01:10:10,289 --> 01:10:13,289
New version is pretty nice.

697
01:10:13,289 --> 01:10:14,289
Yeah.

698
01:10:14,289 --> 01:10:17,289
And it has more stuff for Windows and Mac.

699
01:10:17,289 --> 01:10:20,289
Normally, it's all Linux at first.

700
01:10:20,289 --> 01:10:24,289
And then we, you know, we add the Windows stuff.

701
01:10:24,289 --> 01:10:34,289
And then if people are in a really, really good mood, one Mac thing will get added.

702
01:10:34,289 --> 01:10:35,289
But we're going to add more of that.

703
01:10:35,289 --> 01:10:40,289
So we have to get all that stuff for like, you know, how the you know, they do it.

704
01:10:40,289 --> 01:10:44,289
The CI and the GitHub actions and stuff.

705
01:10:44,289 --> 01:10:52,289
We have to we have to once we get that done, then it should be permanently fixed.

706
01:10:52,289 --> 01:10:56,289
So but that's just kind of a chore right now.

707
01:10:56,289 --> 01:11:01,289
Yeah, the launcher is like, I mean, I download on Windows and it's like two, three minutes.

708
01:11:01,289 --> 01:11:06,289
Just, you know, like download, open and run the node.

709
01:11:06,289 --> 01:11:09,289
And, you know, it's very, very good.

710
01:11:09,289 --> 01:11:13,289
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, people can can, you know, check themselves.

711
01:11:13,289 --> 01:11:19,289
This is very, very few minutes of their time to to run.

712
01:11:19,289 --> 01:11:28,289
Yeah.

713
01:11:28,289 --> 01:11:32,289
Well, we have a flavor and we have Andres.

714
01:11:33,289 --> 01:11:38,289
So welcome to the stage.

715
01:11:38,289 --> 01:11:40,289
Nice to see you again.

716
01:11:40,289 --> 01:11:42,289
Can you hear me?

717
01:11:42,289 --> 01:11:44,289
Yes.

718
01:11:44,289 --> 01:11:49,289
All right. So I don't it's not really a question, but I just wanted to comment.

719
01:11:49,289 --> 01:11:54,289
I used to be against drivechains until fairly recently.

720
01:11:54,289 --> 01:11:58,289
And I just recently saw the light.

721
01:11:58,289 --> 01:12:03,289
So, yeah, just in case you feel this kind of.

722
01:12:03,289 --> 01:12:04,289
Thank you. Thank you.

723
01:12:04,289 --> 01:12:08,289
In case you feel this kind of promotion doesn't work.

724
01:12:08,289 --> 01:12:12,289
Just so you know, you're convincing some people.

725
01:12:12,289 --> 01:12:15,289
Hey, thanks. Well, you know, a lot of people are amazed.

726
01:12:15,289 --> 01:12:18,289
They say, Paul, how do you do all this, whatever, blah, blah, blah.

727
01:12:18,289 --> 01:12:21,289
But, you know, the thing is, this has actually happened in Bitcoin a lot.

728
01:12:21,289 --> 01:12:27,289
And in fact, one irony is that Peter Todd was once hated and he was this big, small blocker.

729
01:12:27,289 --> 01:12:30,289
And he was hated by everyone.

730
01:12:30,289 --> 01:12:32,289
And he looks like 2013.

731
01:12:32,289 --> 01:12:36,289
And eventually everyone kind of like came over to his point of view, really.

732
01:12:36,289 --> 01:12:38,289
So it's kind of funny, really.

733
01:12:38,289 --> 01:12:43,289
And this type of thing has happened a lot.

734
01:12:43,289 --> 01:12:46,289
And, you know, if people.

735
01:12:46,289 --> 01:12:51,289
It's definitely like it doesn't really bother me at all when people say like if people say,

736
01:12:51,289 --> 01:12:54,289
I heard about drivechain like two weeks ago.

737
01:12:54,289 --> 01:12:56,289
It sounds risky.

738
01:12:56,289 --> 01:12:58,289
It's like, well, they only heard about it two weeks ago.

739
01:12:58,289 --> 01:13:02,289
So I heard about it eight and a half years ago.

740
01:13:02,289 --> 01:13:06,289
So obviously it's a lot less risky to me.

741
01:13:06,289 --> 01:13:10,289
Someone you've known for eight and a half years is.

742
01:13:10,289 --> 01:13:16,289
Not, you know, you have a better understanding of that person than someone that you just met two weeks ago, so.

743
01:13:16,289 --> 01:13:18,289
So it's kind of like whatever.

744
01:13:18,289 --> 01:13:24,289
And, you know, Bitcoin has been doing very well on the whole for the last.

745
01:13:24,289 --> 01:13:26,289
You know, eight, 10 years, so.

746
01:13:26,289 --> 01:13:30,289
So it's just kind of easy to have to keep things in perspective.

747
01:13:30,289 --> 01:13:33,289
And I think that, yeah, I think it's just great.

748
01:13:33,289 --> 01:13:40,289
And just continue to have a new page about a FUD that I'm going to try to release today.

749
01:13:40,289 --> 01:13:41,289
I hope.

750
01:13:54,289 --> 01:14:07,289
The phone, brand new phone.

751
01:14:07,289 --> 01:14:11,289
And I don't know, I think I'm ready to blame Elon.

752
01:14:11,289 --> 01:14:13,289
He's firing too many people, Elon.

753
01:14:13,289 --> 01:14:18,289
Only fire, only fire 65 percent.

754
01:14:18,289 --> 01:14:22,289
Don't fire 70 percent, because I don't know why.

755
01:14:22,289 --> 01:14:24,289
It seems to mostly be happening to me, though.

756
01:14:24,289 --> 01:14:30,289
Notably, it doesn't happen to the LayerTwo Labs phone, which would crash the whole space.

757
01:14:30,289 --> 01:14:33,289
So I don't know why this is happening, but it constantly happens.

758
01:14:33,289 --> 01:14:34,289
Oh, well, anyway.

759
01:14:34,289 --> 01:14:40,289
So, yeah, we have the FUD page, and I think just people just continue to talk about the idea.

760
01:14:40,289 --> 01:14:44,289
And that it has these benefits, and it doesn't really have these risks.

761
01:14:44,289 --> 01:14:50,289
And that Bitcoin, people should be free to use Bitcoin in whatever way they want.

762
01:14:51,289 --> 01:14:57,289
It's not going to negatively affect anything that your L1 node is doing today.

763
01:14:57,289 --> 01:15:04,289
So in that sense, it's really not a change at all, and people are not required to upgrade to BIP300.

764
01:15:04,289 --> 01:15:13,289
Which should kind of be a clue that it is harmless, because your node will still be doing what it did before.

765
01:15:13,289 --> 01:15:16,289
It's not like people can take your coins.

766
01:15:16,289 --> 01:15:19,289
This is just a new option for people.

767
01:15:19,289 --> 01:15:21,289
And, yeah, so I'm really happy to hear that.

768
01:15:21,289 --> 01:15:22,289
So that's good.

769
01:15:22,289 --> 01:15:24,289
So thanks for your comment.

770
01:15:26,289 --> 01:15:30,289
I also heard that Elon's just firing robots now as well.

771
01:15:30,289 --> 01:15:32,289
He's going after the robots too.

772
01:15:34,289 --> 01:15:35,289
He doesn't want any AI.

773
01:15:37,289 --> 01:15:38,289
Elon, get AI.

774
01:15:38,289 --> 01:15:45,289
Can we get chap at GPT-4 to update my Twitter app or my X app?

775
01:15:46,289 --> 01:15:54,289
Elon, you're going to need the app not to crash if you want it to become the everything payment supermedia app.

776
01:15:56,289 --> 01:15:58,289
Anyway, hello. Mr. Flavor is here.

777
01:15:59,289 --> 01:16:00,289
Hello.

778
01:16:00,289 --> 01:16:02,289
Thanks for having me on.

779
01:16:03,289 --> 01:16:09,289
So I saw earlier this week you had done a lengthy reply to Safety and Amus.

780
01:16:10,289 --> 01:16:12,289
And a message of his was getting some traction.

781
01:16:13,289 --> 01:16:15,289
And I was just wondering if you could speak to that a little bit.

782
01:16:17,289 --> 01:16:20,289
And if you would talk about your relationship with Safety.

783
01:16:21,289 --> 01:16:22,289
Yeah, sure.

784
01:16:22,289 --> 01:16:27,289
So Safety, you know, he was this guy long ago.

785
01:16:28,289 --> 01:16:33,289
I mean, you see in the tweet I post, he wrote this.

786
01:16:33,289 --> 01:16:36,289
Recently, he wrote this open letter against BIP300, which has nothing.

787
01:16:36,289 --> 01:16:38,289
It has nothing at all to do with BIP300.

788
01:16:38,289 --> 01:16:42,289
He just doesn't like me personally because I tweeted about not liking his book.

789
01:16:43,289 --> 01:16:46,289
And he is a vindictive person, which is fine.

790
01:16:46,289 --> 01:16:52,289
I mean, as a game theorist, vindictiveness has its advantages.

791
01:16:54,289 --> 01:16:55,289
There's even a strategy.

792
01:16:55,289 --> 01:17:00,289
It's even we have a name for it called Grim Trigger, where if someone betrays you, you never forgive them.

793
01:17:02,289 --> 01:17:03,289
This is a game theorist approved.

794
01:17:04,289 --> 01:17:10,289
In some contexts, it's improved when you really want someone to never betray you once.

795
01:17:10,289 --> 01:17:14,289
But in the real world where that has a lot of dynamism, it doesn't work.

796
01:17:14,289 --> 01:17:17,289
And this is what you are all about to experience as I explain this to you.

797
01:17:18,289 --> 01:17:30,289
So he does this kind of thing very often where he said that thing about music after all art, including all music after 1971 is fiat and just terrible.

798
01:17:30,289 --> 01:17:35,289
And Peter McCormack tried to say, well, what about like such and such?

799
01:17:36,289 --> 01:17:38,289
And he's like, whatever you suck.

800
01:17:38,289 --> 01:17:40,289
And then they got into like a little fight.

801
01:17:40,289 --> 01:17:44,289
And you see, the Grim Trigger world is a very dangerous place where there's the slightest misunderstanding.

802
01:17:44,289 --> 01:17:47,289
Everyone is shooting each other in the head and we all die.

803
01:17:47,289 --> 01:17:50,289
So it's it's not applicable to every situation.

804
01:17:52,289 --> 01:17:57,289
And certainly now when there's nuance and misunderstanding.

805
01:17:57,289 --> 01:18:02,289
And so so he's just like, you know, he's like a certain this is a certain type of character.

806
01:18:02,289 --> 01:18:04,289
And this is what he wants to be.

807
01:18:04,289 --> 01:18:10,289
He wants to be this like high priest person where people give him respect.

808
01:18:11,289 --> 01:18:18,289
And acknowledge him as like a like a some kind of a cultural figure.

809
01:18:19,289 --> 01:18:21,289
And that is really what it is.

810
01:18:21,289 --> 01:18:24,289
It has nothing to do with he doesn't actually know anything about the 300.

811
01:18:24,289 --> 01:18:27,289
And most of the as you saw, most of his open letter.

812
01:18:27,289 --> 01:18:28,289
And so he's blocked me.

813
01:18:28,289 --> 01:18:30,289
So he just he writes this open letter.

814
01:18:30,289 --> 01:18:34,289
But I have no way of seeing it until someone else screenshots it and sends it sends it to me.

815
01:18:35,289 --> 01:18:41,289
And the bulk of it was just about him saying that he would not upgrade his node to support the 300.

816
01:18:42,289 --> 01:18:44,289
But that doesn't make any difference because it's a soft fork.

817
01:18:45,289 --> 01:18:47,289
It's only the hard fork that requires everyone to upgrade.

818
01:18:47,289 --> 01:18:50,289
So so the entire thing was just pointless.

819
01:18:50,289 --> 01:18:57,289
And he did have like, you know, some things to say about how he doesn't agree with the motivation section, which is which is fine.

820
01:18:58,289 --> 01:19:01,289
But the motivation section is the same reason Blockstream was created.

821
01:19:02,289 --> 01:19:04,289
So so you can read my reply.

822
01:19:05,289 --> 01:19:11,289
But I think the more important thing is to just comment on like the nature of this person, which is he.

823
01:19:12,289 --> 01:19:14,289
He you know, he has these strong opinions.

824
01:19:14,289 --> 01:19:17,289
He's doing this kind of like edgelording kind of thing.

825
01:19:17,289 --> 01:19:19,289
He's doing like trying to do like an esteem to lab thing.

826
01:19:19,289 --> 01:19:20,289
He knows, you know, it's good.

827
01:19:20,289 --> 01:19:24,289
Nassim Taleb pointed this out in in the Black Swan.

828
01:19:25,289 --> 01:19:28,289
He said, what if I got into a fistfight with someone at a book signing?

829
01:19:29,289 --> 01:19:31,289
He mentions this to his agent and the agents.

830
01:19:32,289 --> 01:19:33,289
This is kind of like, well, that would be terrible.

831
01:19:33,289 --> 01:19:38,289
But then he's like, oh, wait a minute, because it would be they realized it would be good for book sales.

832
01:19:39,289 --> 01:19:40,289
So, you know, you're anti fragile.

833
01:19:41,289 --> 01:19:46,289
You want any kind of controversy, anything that can give you attention, you know, like a Jenna Maroney character from 30 Rock.

834
01:19:47,289 --> 01:19:50,289
It's like it doesn't matter as long as people are giving you attention.

835
01:19:51,289 --> 01:19:56,289
And this is also also partially based on this guy, Mercha Popescu, who ran this trilemma blog.

836
01:19:57,289 --> 01:19:58,289
And this guy was surely a genius.

837
01:19:59,289 --> 01:20:02,289
But I think he was mistaken about something big, which is he thought.

838
01:20:04,384 --> 01:20:10,624
Bitcoin never needs to change, and in particular, he thought Bitcoin doesn't need adoption because people will come come crawling.

839
01:20:11,744 --> 01:20:18,424
And he is a patient zero of this idea, and he lived in a time when Bitcoin was doing very, very well.

840
01:20:19,744 --> 01:20:24,144
And the competitors to it were all just would just complete garbage.

841
01:20:24,144 --> 01:20:30,824
So he was right to be overconfident, and he was also right to want to preserve Bitcoin's properties.

842
01:20:31,303 --> 01:20:40,824
Notably, I once asked this character Mercha Popescu on IRC about sidechains, and he said that he he gave the only smart answer that I had heard anyone give at that time, which he said.

843
01:20:42,424 --> 01:20:46,703
I don't know, I have to learn more about them. So that's how smart that guy was.

844
01:20:46,703 --> 01:20:50,464
He was the smartest guy around, because at the time there was no code and there was no anything.

845
01:20:50,824 --> 01:20:53,104
This is like 2015 or 2014 or something.

846
01:20:54,104 --> 01:21:05,944
So so this guy was a brilliant guy, Mercha Popescu, and he was very, very rude to people, but with utter brilliance and and style.

847
01:21:05,944 --> 01:21:10,343
And he was and he's he's a crazy person, of course, but he's a genius.

848
01:21:11,343 --> 01:21:22,663
And he like he once hacked a FetLife fetish website or some website like that and downloaded everyone, all the women's profiles and pictures and posted them somewhere.

849
01:21:23,224 --> 01:21:26,343
There's quite a character and he's a brilliant guy.

850
01:21:26,343 --> 01:21:33,504
And the point of I'm trying to make, though, is people think that if they're as rude as him, then they will also be as intelligent as.

851
01:21:34,864 --> 01:21:50,104
As him, and they are wrong, they only managed to copy the the kind of rudeness, and they're also trying to do the you know, this idea of the edgelording and just a hot, really hot takes you get you get attention and you get relevance.

852
01:21:50,104 --> 01:21:52,784
And so that's all that it is.

853
01:21:52,784 --> 01:21:53,744
It has nothing to do with anything.

854
01:21:53,744 --> 01:21:59,023
But, you know, my I'll give you my complete relationship with him is that long ago he asked me for help writing this article.

855
01:21:59,583 --> 01:22:04,184
And my view is the article is a lot largely riffing off of things that I had already written.

856
01:22:04,184 --> 01:22:08,383
I had written this essay of limits of blockchain tech, and then he wanted to write this paper about it.

857
01:22:08,383 --> 01:22:11,104
And as you see in the reply, he emailed me about it.

858
01:22:11,104 --> 01:22:13,464
And then he he couldn't thank me enough.

859
01:22:13,464 --> 01:22:15,503
And he said, I hope to repay you fittingly one day.

860
01:22:16,303 --> 01:22:24,704
And then like a year later, or whatever, on Twitter, he was asking me if someone someone asked about his book, and I said it wasn't very good.

861
01:22:24,704 --> 01:22:26,744
And only three chapters of it were about Bitcoin.

862
01:22:27,503 --> 01:22:42,184
And it was I had all this irrelevant junk stapled into it, which I believe and which I think is now a widely expected, widely like, shared point of view that he is commenting on all this stuff that doesn't have anything to do with Bitcoin, really.

863
01:22:43,184 --> 01:23:06,184
And so I was disappointed in and I think he's drunk this, this Kool Aid, this is this is like Rothbard Hanselman hop book, direction about the time preference and about democracy, the God that failed, and a lot of his material is basically just ripped off from that stuff, and none of that stuff is any good.

864
01:23:06,184 --> 01:23:08,184
So it's kind of a rambling answer.

865
01:23:08,184 --> 01:23:13,184
But that was why I didn't like his book, because I thought he's just copy pasting stuff that other people wrote, and it's not very good.

866
01:23:14,184 --> 01:23:18,184
Taking stuff from Bitcoin, all the good parts were just good stuff taken from Bitcoin talk.

867
01:23:18,184 --> 01:23:22,184
So I thought it was fine that someone wrote a book about Bitcoin.

868
01:23:22,184 --> 01:23:27,184
But anyway, long story short, he, he objected to that comment on Twitter.

869
01:23:27,184 --> 01:23:35,184
And I asked him about objective and like a dependent and independent variables.

870
01:23:35,184 --> 01:23:47,184
And from this, he just assumed that I am some kind of weird positivist, who are the enemies of, I suppose, the Austrian school, even though I'm not at all.

871
01:23:47,184 --> 01:23:51,184
I'm also an I'm a Karl Popper critical rationalist.

872
01:23:51,184 --> 01:23:55,184
And so we are also enemies of the positivist.

873
01:23:56,184 --> 01:24:00,184
Although we're often confused for positivist, as was this occasion.

874
01:24:00,184 --> 01:24:02,184
And so then he just got into this thing.

875
01:24:02,184 --> 01:24:07,184
And he said that, that all that is a bunch of junk.

876
01:24:07,184 --> 01:24:11,184
And then he said that I worked for Block, which was true at the time.

877
01:24:11,184 --> 01:24:19,184
Back in 2016, I worked for Jeff Garzik's startup, which has a lot to say about that, but it would take too long.

878
01:24:19,184 --> 01:24:23,184
Or if you want to ask about it, I will maybe answer it, I guess.

879
01:24:24,184 --> 01:24:29,184
But I said, well, you know, as far as I know, you also work for Block.

880
01:24:29,184 --> 01:24:34,184
And that was a comment on logic, because I was saying, I don't know all the people that.

881
01:24:35,184 --> 01:24:38,184
Are being given money by Block, the LLQ.

882
01:24:40,184 --> 01:24:43,184
I don't know that. So isn't it irrelevant ad hominem?

883
01:24:43,184 --> 01:24:46,184
So I was it was just a purely logical point.

884
01:24:46,184 --> 01:24:50,184
But then he was like, so offended by this that he blocked me immediately.

885
01:24:50,184 --> 01:24:55,184
And so then, as is my practice, when someone blocks me, I just block them back.

886
01:24:55,184 --> 01:25:00,184
Just because I think blocking is so silly that I thought, OK, fine.

887
01:25:01,184 --> 01:25:08,184
And then I think that's the whole thing is that people have, I think, tried to talk to him about this idea.

888
01:25:08,184 --> 01:25:11,184
And they ask him about the idea and they go back and forth.

889
01:25:12,184 --> 01:25:16,184
And it's all just about his reputation and his ego.

890
01:25:17,184 --> 01:25:21,184
And he thinks that if this it's just it's this 300 is just collateral damage.

891
01:25:21,184 --> 01:25:24,184
He just thinks that if I get more prestige in any way.

892
01:25:25,184 --> 01:25:29,184
It would be bad for him. And so that's the whole that's the entire thing.

893
01:25:31,184 --> 01:25:34,184
And so would it be bad for him? I ask.

894
01:25:34,184 --> 01:25:41,184
Well, if you were to gain more prestige, you know, I honestly think of him as a very small fish to fry.

895
01:25:41,184 --> 01:25:43,184
And I think I have much bigger fish to fry.

896
01:25:43,184 --> 01:25:46,184
So I don't even like I don't even get it.

897
01:25:46,184 --> 01:25:49,184
But I think that I think he does represent.

898
01:25:50,184 --> 01:25:57,184
The I wrote an essay that I never published, but maybe it's really hard because I read a lot of things that I don't publish and I try to get it out.

899
01:25:57,184 --> 01:26:04,184
But the one essay was about Austrian economics and I write about how helpful I found it to be.

900
01:26:04,184 --> 01:26:06,184
And but also why I ultimately abandoned it.

901
01:26:06,184 --> 01:26:10,184
And so the essay was called Austrian economics to join it, then leave.

902
01:26:11,184 --> 01:26:15,184
And Brian Kaplan wrote a similar essay that exists and that you can find.

903
01:26:16,184 --> 01:26:19,184
And but it's.

904
01:26:20,184 --> 01:26:22,184
But maybe that would help. I don't know.

905
01:26:22,184 --> 01:26:28,184
But I just think it is, you know, the Austrian econ is great because traditional econ has so many problems.

906
01:26:29,184 --> 01:26:31,184
And so you think this sucks.

907
01:26:32,184 --> 01:26:34,184
And then you feel like, oh, Austria, you know, this is good.

908
01:26:34,184 --> 01:26:35,184
This is making progress.

909
01:26:36,184 --> 01:26:39,184
But then you look around and you're like, this kind of also sucks if you really think about it.

910
01:26:40,184 --> 01:26:41,184
So that's just my point of view.

911
01:26:42,184 --> 01:26:44,184
And I always push the envelope.

912
01:26:45,184 --> 01:26:47,184
So when I see someone who is.

913
01:26:49,184 --> 01:26:59,184
Merely a few steps ahead of most people, which is what I think he is, I just think I don't care because I'm going I'm sprinting to the finish line as quickly as possible.

914
01:26:59,184 --> 01:27:10,184
So I don't know. I mean, the sad truth is it probably this is probably unavoidable at this point because he's probably like talk so much trash, you know, by his own hand.

915
01:27:11,184 --> 01:27:12,184
He is creating this whole.

916
01:27:14,184 --> 01:27:20,184
You know, this whole narrative or this whole thing, so it's and I think this is it's not the only one.

917
01:27:20,184 --> 01:27:27,184
Most of the people against BIP300, I think, are just people that at one point or another, I have called out for just being, you know.

918
01:27:28,184 --> 01:27:30,184
Just mediocrities are just not impressive.

919
01:27:30,184 --> 01:27:40,184
According to me, it doesn't mean that, you know, it doesn't mean that they're not worthy of being loved and that they shouldn't have their own, shouldn't be able to sell books or something.

920
01:27:40,184 --> 01:27:42,184
But, you know, I have absurdly high standards.

921
01:27:42,184 --> 01:27:45,184
So that's just my own opinion.

922
01:27:46,184 --> 01:27:53,184
For your part, you don't really have any animosity towards him or others.

923
01:27:53,184 --> 01:27:58,184
And you believe that his detracting from BIP300 is mostly politically motivated.

924
01:27:59,184 --> 01:28:01,184
Right. Yeah, I think people don't.

925
01:28:02,184 --> 01:28:08,184
It might reassure such people if they really had an idea of the fish that I'm really trying to fry.

926
01:28:09,184 --> 01:28:26,184
And I think that if they went to BitcoinHiveMind.com and they watched the 20 minute video there, they would see that I find all of this this palace affair of Bitcoin development to be very, very small.

927
01:28:27,184 --> 01:28:36,184
A very low on the it's a small issue and as far as things that I'm more interested in.

928
01:28:36,184 --> 01:28:42,184
So I don't even, you know, and a lot of these people are not many people have made it their whole identity Bitcoin.

929
01:28:42,184 --> 01:28:48,184
But I have most of my friends and family do not don't know anything about Bitcoin.

930
01:28:48,184 --> 01:28:52,184
They're very funny. I was just talking to my cousin the other day.

931
01:28:52,184 --> 01:28:55,184
He had no idea the difference. He said no idea that Bitcoin Cash was different from Bitcoin.

932
01:28:56,184 --> 01:29:05,184
Even after sort of conversing with me for all these years, I thought that's the status of a normal a normal person who is.

933
01:29:06,184 --> 01:29:13,184
In my family, you know, it was like, you know, an educated white collar professional, smart person.

934
01:29:13,184 --> 01:29:15,184
They don't know. They don't even really know.

935
01:29:15,184 --> 01:29:18,184
So, you know, I don't even really even like it's not.

936
01:29:19,184 --> 01:29:25,184
I think that's part of the reason why I had the idea of BIP300 anyway and why I carried it this far, though, is because I really am so independent.

937
01:29:25,184 --> 01:29:31,184
And I really do need the BIP300 part to work for this because I actually want the sidechains to work.

938
01:29:31,184 --> 01:29:34,184
It isn't like a weird career stepping stone.

939
01:29:35,184 --> 01:29:36,184
I don't know if any of them don't.

940
01:29:37,184 --> 01:29:42,184
Miners don't even understand Bitcoin. They're not coders, they're not developers, they're not mathematicians.

941
01:29:42,184 --> 01:29:44,184
And they'll tell you they're not. They're just these.

942
01:29:46,184 --> 01:29:48,184
They're just kind of like brainwashing.

943
01:29:51,184 --> 01:29:53,184
Yeah, I think a few people do.

944
01:29:53,184 --> 01:29:58,184
And one surprising thing is even like, well, you know, often some time from time to time, even big supporters.

945
01:29:59,184 --> 01:30:03,184
It's clear to me that they don't they don't totally understand it either.

946
01:30:04,184 --> 01:30:07,184
I mean, BitCode, we love BitCode.

947
01:30:07,184 --> 01:30:12,184
And he was just like saying he's run the software, which makes him an elite expert.

948
01:30:12,184 --> 01:30:22,184
But he's asking about like, you know, does every can you have one piece of software run multiple nodes or something that I would think someone who had run the software would would know.

949
01:30:22,184 --> 01:30:26,184
And sometimes even me and CryptEx, we have disagreements.

950
01:30:26,184 --> 01:30:34,184
We have differences of we have a different idea of what it was, what it looks like or what it does.

951
01:30:34,184 --> 01:30:36,184
And those are sometimes pretty funny.

952
01:30:36,184 --> 01:30:39,184
The idea that we have been working on it and testing it for a while.

953
01:30:40,184 --> 01:30:42,184
And that I think was recently happened in like.

954
01:30:43,184 --> 01:30:46,184
Twenty twenty, I think it was after covid.

955
01:30:47,184 --> 01:30:53,184
I think. But it was like that was just funny to me that after all this time, you would still.

956
01:30:54,184 --> 01:30:57,184
So, yeah, people don't have a full understanding of things that they comment on.

957
01:30:57,184 --> 01:30:59,184
They just look around. They see something.

958
01:30:59,184 --> 01:31:04,184
They think this is mostly going well or they think this is a problem.

959
01:31:05,184 --> 01:31:07,184
And then they start talking about that.

960
01:31:07,184 --> 01:31:09,184
And I think that's perfectly fine.

961
01:31:09,184 --> 01:31:15,184
But, yeah, like so this is exactly the case with the safety in where he's just saying like he just doesn't.

962
01:31:15,184 --> 01:31:19,184
And it's like they hang out with it's it's very social as well.

963
01:31:19,184 --> 01:31:28,184
So like there used to be this group, Nakamoto Institute, that had these really, really high quality essays very early on.

964
01:31:28,184 --> 01:31:33,184
Twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, which I highly recommend people read.

965
01:31:33,184 --> 01:31:35,184
But, of course, there was some drama with that.

966
01:31:35,184 --> 01:31:39,184
Whereas Daniel Krajewicz is a brilliant guy, absolutely brilliant guy.

967
01:31:39,184 --> 01:31:42,184
And he was sort of the leader.

968
01:31:43,184 --> 01:31:46,184
Maybe and maybe.

969
01:31:46,184 --> 01:31:49,184
But then a safety kind of replaced him.

970
01:31:49,184 --> 01:31:53,184
He sort of left. He was more into large block ism, believe it or not.

971
01:31:54,184 --> 01:31:57,184
And a safety and just kind of moved in.

972
01:31:57,184 --> 01:32:05,184
And I can I can just from hearing about all of it from different people from far away,

973
01:32:05,184 --> 01:32:11,184
I could take out a pipe and do armchair psychology about who has a daddy issues or whatever is going on with that.

974
01:32:11,184 --> 01:32:21,184
But it's just like it's a group of people and they have, you know, they have beliefs about like there's like the Austin community is more.

975
01:32:22,184 --> 01:32:29,184
The Austin community where the Nakamoto Institute was created is from UT Austin when they were all undergraduates.

976
01:32:29,184 --> 01:32:36,184
Austin community has more of a focus on like property rights, Austrian econ.

977
01:32:36,184 --> 01:32:41,184
And then there's like New York, which is like more finance and like devs.

978
01:32:41,184 --> 01:32:48,184
And San Francisco is more like cryptography, you know, whatever, ring signatures, block stream, etc.

979
01:32:48,184 --> 01:32:51,184
Until that fell apart.

980
01:32:51,184 --> 01:32:57,184
A lot of the SF stuff moved to New York, I think, or to Austin just because of.

981
01:32:57,184 --> 01:33:00,184
But there was also a big Miami group.

982
01:33:00,184 --> 01:33:04,184
I was sort of more identified with the Miami group, which was like Bitcoin uncensored.

983
01:33:04,184 --> 01:33:07,184
Who's actually using Bitcoin?

984
01:33:07,184 --> 01:33:14,184
The Bitcoin users at the time were like dark net market people or people paying for on a back page.

985
01:33:14,184 --> 01:33:17,184
They would pay for like, you know, prostitution ads.

986
01:33:17,184 --> 01:33:19,184
So it was like this very seedy thing.

987
01:33:19,184 --> 01:33:22,184
It was this very like.

988
01:33:22,184 --> 01:33:24,184
It's like it's very subversive.

989
01:33:24,184 --> 01:33:25,184
It's very like a mere talk.

990
01:33:25,184 --> 01:33:28,184
He was more like that type of thing, like.

991
01:33:28,184 --> 01:33:32,184
Dark, you know, so it's kind of like it's all very different.

992
01:33:32,184 --> 01:33:37,184
People have their own little different communities, and so there's like a little wedge issues and.

993
01:33:37,184 --> 01:33:41,184
And it's a lot about impressing your friends and such and such.

994
01:33:41,184 --> 01:33:45,184
So I think, I mean, you know, none of that had anything to do with.

995
01:33:45,184 --> 01:33:52,184
But 300, I think, I mean, he's even his comment about hating the motivation section.

996
01:33:52,184 --> 01:33:59,184
Is that's what that was, what Pierre Richard said when he joined this space like three weeks ago or whatever.

997
01:33:59,184 --> 01:34:02,184
So I bet even that is copy and pasted.

998
01:34:02,184 --> 01:34:10,184
So when I think about safety and amuse, I really just do think of like a giant clipboard and everything is just taken from somewhere else.

999
01:34:10,184 --> 01:34:12,184
Because it's also more defensible that way.

1000
01:34:12,184 --> 01:34:16,184
You just take something that someone else has, then, you know, they agree with you.

1001
01:34:16,184 --> 01:34:19,184
So so that's why I kind of just roll my eyes at him.

1002
01:34:19,184 --> 01:34:23,184
But again, I don't really, you know.

1003
01:34:23,184 --> 01:34:27,184
I don't even really like, you know, it's like that the meme.

1004
01:34:27,184 --> 01:34:38,184
Where I don't really think about him that often, although I have having watched that show when that he is lying about Don Draper is lying about that.

1005
01:34:38,184 --> 01:34:40,184
He is thinking about that guy the whole time.

1006
01:34:40,184 --> 01:34:44,184
So that meme is often misused.

1007
01:34:44,184 --> 01:34:46,184
Anyway, that's a bunch of I have to stay here with me.

1008
01:34:46,184 --> 01:34:48,184
Oh, great. He's right here. Yeah.

1009
01:34:48,184 --> 01:34:51,184
He's just wait one second.

1010
01:34:51,184 --> 01:34:54,184
Oh, OK.

1011
01:34:54,184 --> 01:34:57,184
That's a funny joke. But whatever.

1012
01:34:57,184 --> 01:35:05,184
You know, that reminds me of the thing is that's actually not great, though, to do, because it's that was a great bait and switch.

1013
01:35:05,184 --> 01:35:12,184
But that reminds me of a time and this is all related to drivechain in a way, because.

1014
01:35:12,184 --> 01:35:15,184
Scaling three in Milan.

1015
01:35:15,184 --> 01:35:24,184
Roger Ver had come and he had given out Bitcoin dot com stickers, but the polarization was already so great in the mistrust.

1016
01:35:24,184 --> 01:35:28,184
That even though Roger Ver was there and he was like giving out free stuff.

1017
01:35:28,184 --> 01:35:34,184
So people threw them in, like, the toilet and they were very mean about it all.

1018
01:35:34,184 --> 01:35:39,184
And of course. People disagree and people.

1019
01:35:39,184 --> 01:35:47,184
Do. But I did think that was kind of like I remember thinking like, OK.

1020
01:35:47,184 --> 01:35:52,184
Roger is a large blocker, but here he is, he's here at scaling Bitcoin three.

1021
01:35:52,184 --> 01:35:55,184
And, you know, he he could just he's got all this money.

1022
01:35:55,184 --> 01:36:00,184
He could like just do something else, throw parties or whatever.

1023
01:36:00,184 --> 01:36:05,184
And but, you know, he's like here and he's like giving people free stuff.

1024
01:36:05,184 --> 01:36:09,184
And they just kind of like kind of not really very.

1025
01:36:09,184 --> 01:36:15,184
It just kind of was like the point when the polarization.

1026
01:36:15,184 --> 01:36:25,184
Was reaching a level where it was kind of like becoming emotional, you know, and that was when I really started to get kind of worried for the first time.

1027
01:36:25,184 --> 01:36:32,184
And this was also because I think this was all related to the fact that Ethereum that year had gone from being like nothing.

1028
01:36:32,184 --> 01:36:39,184
I don't I don't remember the exact numbers, but it went from something like being like less than one percent of Bitcoin's market cap.

1029
01:36:39,184 --> 01:36:44,184
And it like erupted onto the scene with like consensus 2016.

1030
01:36:44,184 --> 01:36:54,184
I think it was. And it and it became it became very big, like much more than I think it may have even gotten to whatever, like 15 percent or something.

1031
01:36:54,184 --> 01:37:05,184
And so I think that you could feel the the emotions and the, you know, like the desperation almost or the frustration.

1032
01:37:05,184 --> 01:37:10,183
Like many people, these are the same people that critiqued Ethereum for so long and said it was garbage.

1033
01:37:10,183 --> 01:37:14,183
And it was garbage for so long, less than one percent.

1034
01:37:14,183 --> 01:37:18,183
And now it had just gone up like a thousand X or something.

1035
01:37:18,183 --> 01:37:24,183
So anyone who had invested, you know, if you had put twenty dollars in.

1036
01:37:24,183 --> 01:37:32,183
And you have twenty thousand dollars. So let alone if you had made a serious investment of, you know, five thousand dollars, you have five million dollars.

1037
01:37:32,183 --> 01:37:39,183
So so so I think the emotions are always a bad sign.

1038
01:37:39,183 --> 01:37:46,183
But anyways, Bitcoin is going to stand up.

1039
01:37:46,183 --> 01:38:07,183
I wanted to add something, you know, Paul, like like you're a person that you kind of realize the problem and you immediately try to find the solution, you know, like and that's kind of like also through that you kind of giving giving to the public education.

1040
01:38:07,183 --> 01:38:12,183
You know, I'm relating to what you were talking about that guy and his book.

1041
01:38:12,183 --> 01:38:28,183
But those people like write a book to make profits and this empty is no education is no kind of like, you know, even even they don't mention, I think, even the white paper of Bitcoin and Satoshi's paper.

1042
01:38:29,183 --> 01:38:54,183
And so like it's kind of like, you know, people people I think need to need to start realizing and differentiate, like make difference between between things that are more educational like and they can learn from you much more than all the Bitcoin books that are out today.

1043
01:38:55,183 --> 01:39:16,183
And I'm sure in that, you know, and there is many other people like Andreas and, you know, from the from the Bitcoin talk, you know, and and kind of like I think those books and those people are trying to create some some kind of fake narrative of Bitcoin is this and nothing else.

1044
01:39:16,183 --> 01:39:20,183
So, well, I'm glad you bring that up because I think you're right about that.

1045
01:39:20,183 --> 01:39:41,183
And I think it's it's weird because it actually ends up being the case that anyone who really does want to help improve Bitcoin actually ends up with those people as enemies, which is not good for Bitcoin or for Bitcoin users and investors.

1046
01:39:41,183 --> 01:40:02,183
And so I think you're right, though, that like the book, that was part of why I kind of was disappointed by the book, because the book, it's clear that safety and wanted to write the book, you know, like kind of not even for profit, but just for his own ego, which is sort of worse, because even profit, he would be at least accountable to book sales.

1047
01:40:02,183 --> 01:40:06,183
But he wrote he wrote the book so that he could make the joke about.

1048
01:40:06,940 --> 01:40:19,940
John Maynard Keynes being like a like a libertine hedonist or whatever, and that was the point of writing the book, and that was the point to complain about Miley Cyrus.

1049
01:40:19,940 --> 01:40:22,940
That was the whole point of writing the book.

1050
01:40:22,940 --> 01:40:27,940
See what I mean? Like it had nothing to do with actually teaching people about Bitcoin.

1051
01:40:28,940 --> 01:40:31,940
Yeah, and that was why I was like, well, whatever.

1052
01:40:31,940 --> 01:40:33,940
I'm just very sensitive to that kind of thing.

1053
01:40:33,940 --> 01:40:38,940
And I'm like, this guy is just whatever, you know, he's an unreliable ally of Bitcoin.

1054
01:40:38,940 --> 01:40:46,940
And, yeah, I think you're completely right to say nothing of these podcasts and stuff, which everyone is doing for the monetization.

1055
01:40:46,940 --> 01:40:50,940
Can you imagine who would do a podcast that they did not monetize?

1056
01:40:50,940 --> 01:40:52,940
That would be like Bitcoin uncensored. Everyone can find it.

1057
01:40:52,940 --> 01:40:55,940
Everyone can find it. I think we get the archive.

1058
01:40:55,940 --> 01:40:59,940
But, you know, like they all do it just for the for the cash.

1059
01:40:59,940 --> 01:41:04,940
So it's not they're not actually producing information and shipping it to you.

1060
01:41:04,940 --> 01:41:12,940
They are taking the lay of the land, figuring out what do people want to hear and giving them that.

1061
01:41:12,940 --> 01:41:20,940
And then they are reaching into your your wallet and taking out your money in a way which is they're taking your attention.

1062
01:41:20,940 --> 01:41:27,940
Their time and they're wasting your time and attention by telling you things that you would more easily learn in some other way.

1063
01:41:27,940 --> 01:41:31,940
And they take your time and attention. They get the advertising money goes to them.

1064
01:41:31,940 --> 01:41:36,940
So but I'm going to get the Bitcoin uncensored link and we'll we'll post it.

1065
01:41:36,940 --> 01:41:40,940
That's a real that's a real education. And I'm going to go get it right now.

1066
01:41:41,940 --> 01:41:50,940
There is another some some channels like I think Andreas is very, very good educator.

1067
01:41:50,940 --> 01:42:02,940
And his talk is very kind of, you know, talking about nodes, how to run, why to run, you know, many, many, many, many things.

1068
01:42:02,940 --> 01:42:13,940
And I found another another channel that that go deep in the kind of showing people about Bitcoin and what is possible to do.

1069
01:42:13,940 --> 01:42:19,940
You know, like with very little coding or stuff like that about nodes.

1070
01:42:19,940 --> 01:42:22,940
And but they don't remember the channel, the name.

1071
01:42:32,940 --> 01:42:53,940
I think if many more people, I think that if if more people are educated about the Bitcoin blockchain, I think more people will likely see drivechain as something positive.

1072
01:42:54,940 --> 01:42:56,940
That's my opinion.

1073
01:42:58,940 --> 01:43:04,940
Yeah, there's a little bit of a a there's like a I think they move.

1074
01:43:04,940 --> 01:43:10,940
There's a big nexus of things where it's like if you care about decentralization, you have to care about people running a node.

1075
01:43:10,940 --> 01:43:14,940
But in order for that, they have to care about they have to know how to find a node.

1076
01:43:14,940 --> 01:43:18,940
Like what is a node? Like, you know what I mean? Is Bitcoin Cash a node of Bitcoin BTC?

1077
01:43:18,940 --> 01:43:21,940
No. So but how do people know all that?

1078
01:43:21,940 --> 01:43:26,940
So it's kind of like a big project. People have to be lifted completely.

1079
01:43:26,940 --> 01:43:33,940
From one thing to the next. And they need they need to like completely leave the world of.

1080
01:43:35,940 --> 01:43:42,940
Like they need to kind of go. You need it's like if you can't learn how to like drive a car without you have to learn about how to refuel the car.

1081
01:43:42,940 --> 01:43:45,940
You have to learn about turn signals. You have to learn about.

1082
01:43:46,940 --> 01:43:56,940
Getting the oil changed, so so you kind of and if you can't, then you're just trapped and you have to use whatever Uber for everything or whatever.

1083
01:43:56,940 --> 01:44:07,940
So, yeah, you need to you need to get experience running the nodes or, you know, try different type of hardware for nodes like a different operating system.

1084
01:44:07,940 --> 01:44:11,940
So, like, yeah, I understand what what you mean.

1085
01:44:12,940 --> 01:44:17,940
Anyway, I posted the I have a few different, but I think this is a good one.

1086
01:44:17,940 --> 01:44:20,940
I posted the good Bitcoin uncensored link. So if you want to.

1087
01:44:22,940 --> 01:44:31,940
If you want a podcast that was never monetized and it's the best Bitcoin podcast ever, it's since ended, unfortunately.

1088
01:44:33,940 --> 01:44:38,940
But that's an example of and they did everything they could to not monetize it and destroy their own.

1089
01:44:38,940 --> 01:44:43,940
And that's what made it great. And that's why all the OGs love this podcast the most of all.

1090
01:44:45,940 --> 01:44:53,940
And but, you know, like the people doing this today, they are, you know, getting money for themselves, which is there.

1091
01:44:54,940 --> 01:44:56,940
You know, there's nothing wrong with that, but.

1092
01:44:57,940 --> 01:44:58,940
It's definitely.

1093
01:45:00,940 --> 01:45:02,940
It's divides their loyalty.

1094
01:45:05,940 --> 01:45:13,940
I think that but I mean, people would say the same thing about about me, they say, oh, I have something to gain.

1095
01:45:15,940 --> 01:45:16,940
From the 300, which is, of course.

1096
01:45:18,940 --> 01:45:19,940
Technically true, but not really.

1097
01:45:21,940 --> 01:45:23,940
It's not really that relevant in the big picture.

1098
01:45:23,940 --> 01:45:29,940
What I mostly get out of it is the same thing that you would get out of it is the ability to end all this madness of.

1099
01:45:30,940 --> 01:45:31,940
On one hand, we have altcoins.

1100
01:45:32,940 --> 01:45:34,940
On the other hand, we have the Bitcoin Core development process.

1101
01:45:35,940 --> 01:45:38,940
But instead, we could have something that's much better.

1102
01:45:40,940 --> 01:45:41,940
Yeah, but in your case, it's fair.

1103
01:45:42,940 --> 01:45:50,940
You know, in in their cases, you know, they don't give any education and they get everything.

1104
01:45:50,940 --> 01:45:53,940
They don't give any education and they get everything for them.

1105
01:45:54,940 --> 01:45:56,940
And that's kind of like a difference.

1106
01:45:57,940 --> 01:46:01,940
I certainly tried every time I gave any Bitcoin talk or wrote a post.

1107
01:46:02,940 --> 01:46:04,940
I tried to only write about something that most people disagreed with.

1108
01:46:05,940 --> 01:46:07,940
And I tried to always say something very new about it.

1109
01:46:08,940 --> 01:46:12,940
But whether or not I succeeded in that is up to the reader, of course.

1110
01:46:13,940 --> 01:46:14,940
But yeah.

1111
01:46:15,940 --> 01:46:16,940
Well, thanks for that point of view.

1112
01:46:17,940 --> 01:46:21,940
So I wonder if we have anyone else who wants to come up and say anything.

1113
01:46:22,940 --> 01:46:25,940
I put the link, it was called Bitcoin Uncensored.

1114
01:46:26,940 --> 01:46:27,940
And there's the link is now, I think, in the nest.

1115
01:46:28,940 --> 01:46:29,940
It was called BU.

1116
01:46:30,940 --> 01:46:35,940
BU was Bitcoin Uncensored.

1117
01:46:36,940 --> 01:46:39,940
And it's resistance.money slash BU.

1118
01:46:40,940 --> 01:46:41,940
There's one link.

1119
01:46:41,940 --> 01:46:45,940
I have some more and I have there's a torrent and a Dropbox folder.

1120
01:46:46,940 --> 01:46:47,940
And I don't know which is the most complete.

1121
01:46:48,940 --> 01:46:49,940
But that was the link that I.

1122
01:46:50,940 --> 01:46:53,940
I googled it to make sure that's what it was when I posted it.

1123
01:46:54,940 --> 01:46:57,940
So and it's it's old.

1124
01:46:58,940 --> 01:47:02,940
It ran from the end of 2015 to March 2017.

1125
01:47:03,940 --> 01:47:05,940
Then it split into various things.

1126
01:47:06,940 --> 01:47:07,940
Long story.

1127
01:47:07,940 --> 01:47:08,940
DeRose.

1128
01:47:09,940 --> 01:47:10,940
Chris DeRose did something.

1129
01:47:11,940 --> 01:47:12,940
DeRose Uncensored.

1130
01:47:13,940 --> 01:47:15,940
And then and Johnset did Johnset's World.

1131
01:47:16,940 --> 01:47:19,940
It's kind of weird that they split off and then did things named after themselves.

1132
01:47:20,940 --> 01:47:22,940
But that was, of course, the convention ever since Joe Rogan and whatever.

1133
01:47:23,940 --> 01:47:25,940
And now it's what Bitcoin did with Peter McCormick.

1134
01:47:26,940 --> 01:47:27,940
It's always with Peter McCormick.

1135
01:47:28,940 --> 01:47:30,940
And anyway, they did all that.

1136
01:47:31,940 --> 01:47:32,940
And.

1137
01:47:33,940 --> 01:47:35,940
And then they kind of both faded out.

1138
01:47:35,940 --> 01:47:41,940
And then Johnset has kind of faded in via the clubhouse direction.

1139
01:47:42,940 --> 01:47:43,940
And.

1140
01:47:45,940 --> 01:47:50,940
Chris is like traveling the world and doing other things.

1141
01:47:52,940 --> 01:47:56,940
May I may ask another question real quick and then I could step off.

1142
01:47:57,940 --> 01:47:58,940
Yeah, of course.

1143
01:47:59,940 --> 01:48:01,940
So are you can you maybe comment?

1144
01:48:01,940 --> 01:48:06,940
I know the keyword upsets a lot of people, but you've been really liberal in your thoughts on it.

1145
01:48:07,940 --> 01:48:08,940
So.

1146
01:48:10,940 --> 01:48:16,940
Can you maybe comment on the Coalition for Quantum Resistance by IBM that IBM is established with?

1147
01:48:17,940 --> 01:48:18,940
I forget the university, but.

1148
01:48:20,940 --> 01:48:23,940
Can you can you comment on that and their efforts?

1149
01:48:24,940 --> 01:48:30,940
I probably really can't because I mean, I can give you a made up comment, but it's like normally when we do these spaces, it's very fun for me in a way.

1150
01:48:31,940 --> 01:48:44,940
Because people ask questions about things that I've been thinking on, working on, doing like traveling and talking to people about nonstop for years and years and years.

1151
01:48:45,940 --> 01:48:50,940
And so I have like a really well-formed opinion and I kind of like know everyone else's opinion as well.

1152
01:48:50,940 --> 01:48:53,940
So I know like why mine is different than other people's or.

1153
01:48:54,940 --> 01:48:59,940
But with something like that, I don't really I don't think I have enough expertise really to give like a super cool opinion.

1154
01:48:59,940 --> 01:49:08,940
I can only tell you about how people's opinions in the Bitcoin community changed like over, you know, surrounding quantum.

1155
01:49:09,940 --> 01:49:12,940
And it's just I don't think I have anything really, really new to say.

1156
01:49:13,940 --> 01:49:16,940
It's just the same thing as always, which is that it will.

1157
01:49:17,940 --> 01:49:19,940
Quantum is going faster than a lot of people thought.

1158
01:49:20,940 --> 01:49:23,940
But there are quantum resistant algorithms, but they're not great.

1159
01:49:24,940 --> 01:49:28,940
Probably if we had the quantum break, you'd hear about it.

1160
01:49:28,940 --> 01:49:37,940
Probably first, you know, it would have maybe it would be in academia or maybe it would be in the military and then probably be a commercial break.

1161
01:49:37,940 --> 01:49:38,940
Like they would.

1162
01:49:39,940 --> 01:49:40,940
Hack the.

1163
01:49:40,940 --> 01:49:41,940
Hack Vanguard or something.

1164
01:49:41,940 --> 01:49:48,940
I don't know what they would hack, but they may it might be used against Bitcoin first as possible.

1165
01:49:49,940 --> 01:49:50,940
It's kind of unlikely, though, because.

1166
01:49:53,940 --> 01:49:55,940
Just the.

1167
01:49:56,940 --> 01:50:00,940
I think I personally think that if this type of thing happened.

1168
01:50:02,940 --> 01:50:14,940
They would have to be very, very strategic about it, have to be like in that game, the imitation game where they break it and then they can't reveal that they've broken it, you know, because otherwise Bitcoin would just hard fork immediately.

1169
01:50:15,940 --> 01:50:16,940
Or I would, you know, too.

1170
01:50:17,940 --> 01:50:20,940
So you have to be very clever about who you're going to steal from a little bit at a time.

1171
01:50:20,940 --> 01:50:21,940
Like when they.

1172
01:50:22,940 --> 01:50:28,940
They trick the Germans into thinking that they have not broken the enigma in that movie.

1173
01:50:29,940 --> 01:50:30,940
The enigma.

1174
01:50:32,940 --> 01:50:34,940
The Nazi World War Two encryption.

1175
01:50:34,940 --> 01:50:37,940
So I think they probably would.

1176
01:50:37,940 --> 01:50:41,940
I don't really have anything super new to say, but there is a way to change it.

1177
01:50:41,940 --> 01:50:44,940
But it's very inefficient in terms of bite size.

1178
01:50:45,940 --> 01:50:46,940
Of the signatures.

1179
01:50:47,940 --> 01:50:48,940
But.

1180
01:50:49,940 --> 01:50:57,940
Maybe I'm sure as as the problem looms closer, people will get better and better at making solutions to that, as was the case with.

1181
01:50:58,940 --> 01:51:02,940
When they had a ring signatures and then bulletproofs and stuff like that, so.

1182
01:51:03,940 --> 01:51:05,940
So people get very good at shrinking the.

1183
01:51:07,940 --> 01:51:08,940
The.

1184
01:51:09,940 --> 01:51:20,940
The size of this type of thing would be more efficient, quantum resistant algorithm, and then all of us will be able to benefit from living in a world that has quantum computing.

1185
01:51:21,940 --> 01:51:22,940
So that will at least offset.

1186
01:51:23,940 --> 01:51:24,940
However.

1187
01:51:25,940 --> 01:51:26,940
Bad.

1188
01:51:26,940 --> 01:51:31,940
We might feel about having to switch from, you know, ECDSA or whatever to.

1189
01:51:32,940 --> 01:51:34,940
To a quantum resistant algorithm.

1190
01:51:35,940 --> 01:51:37,940
So I don't really have anything new to say.

1191
01:51:38,940 --> 01:51:39,940
Yeah.

1192
01:51:40,940 --> 01:51:41,940
The normal thing people say.

1193
01:51:42,940 --> 01:51:43,940
Yeah, it's pretty normal.

1194
01:51:43,940 --> 01:51:53,940
I think, you know, there's there are very few that are in the discipline and actually working on these computers and actually changing quantum states to solve problems.

1195
01:51:54,940 --> 01:51:58,940
But I was talking with some quantum scientists and last night, actually.

1196
01:51:58,940 --> 01:52:04,940
And some of these folks came in that are trying to build something called Q chain, which is not built by quantum scientists.

1197
01:52:05,940 --> 01:52:08,940
And essentially, they're just copy and pasting stuff that NIST is posting.

1198
01:52:09,940 --> 01:52:12,940
And what NIST is posting is not going to make your classical computers quantum resistant.

1199
01:52:13,940 --> 01:52:21,940
So we were talking about like, you know, Bitcoin will hard fork in a quantum world onto quantum computers.

1200
01:52:22,940 --> 01:52:31,940
But the very act of doing that hard fork will completely erase all of the Bitcoin.

1201
01:52:32,940 --> 01:52:33,940
No, I don't think.

1202
01:52:34,940 --> 01:52:35,940
In my, the hard fork is very dangerous.

1203
01:52:36,940 --> 01:52:37,940
But I think.

1204
01:52:38,940 --> 01:52:39,940
In terms of stealing.

1205
01:52:40,940 --> 01:52:43,940
So 21 million can be can be mined immediately, essentially.

1206
01:52:44,940 --> 01:52:47,940
And then it's just going to allow for whoever is in control of the quantum computers.

1207
01:52:48,940 --> 01:52:49,940
Well, maybe.

1208
01:52:49,940 --> 01:52:50,940
I mean, you should check that.

1209
01:52:51,940 --> 01:52:54,940
I don't. You may be right. You sound like you might know more than I.

1210
01:52:55,940 --> 01:53:00,940
But I think the hash functions, it's the I think it's the asymmetric.

1211
01:53:01,940 --> 01:53:02,940
It's like the public private keys.

1212
01:53:03,940 --> 01:53:10,940
That is what is going to fall to quantum resistance to quantum computers first.

1213
01:53:11,940 --> 01:53:13,940
And we don't hard fork to quantum computers.

1214
01:53:13,940 --> 01:53:16,940
We would hard fork to add a new quantum resistant.

1215
01:53:17,940 --> 01:53:20,940
Like signature algorithm.

1216
01:53:21,940 --> 01:53:22,940
I think that's what it is.

1217
01:53:23,940 --> 01:53:24,940
I don't think it would help.

1218
01:53:25,940 --> 01:53:26,940
Sorry.

1219
01:53:27,940 --> 01:53:31,940
Well, I was just trying to say that this has SHA-256 is what is the hashing.

1220
01:53:32,940 --> 01:53:33,940
That's the proof of work.

1221
01:53:34,940 --> 01:53:35,940
So I don't think that would break.

1222
01:53:36,940 --> 01:53:37,940
Even with the world.

1223
01:53:38,940 --> 01:53:40,940
Yeah. Well, I think you would not mind.

1224
01:53:41,940 --> 01:53:42,940
You would not be able to mine everything.

1225
01:53:43,940 --> 01:53:44,940
At once, as you say.

1226
01:53:45,940 --> 01:53:46,940
But maybe not. I don't know.

1227
01:53:47,940 --> 01:53:52,940
Is it possible to switch to quantum miners and stuff like that?

1228
01:53:53,940 --> 01:53:54,940
That's what I'm saying.

1229
01:53:55,940 --> 01:53:57,940
You can't really be comprised of multiple miners with quantum computers.

1230
01:53:58,940 --> 01:54:01,940
It would take theoretically just a few qubits.

1231
01:54:02,940 --> 01:54:09,940
Right now, the notion that it's going to take 300 million qubits to factor out 256 bit encryption is nonsense.

1232
01:54:10,940 --> 01:54:13,940
The hash function is not encryption though.

1233
01:54:17,940 --> 01:54:18,940
Asymmetric.

1234
01:54:19,940 --> 01:54:24,940
To break the signatures, to break any area of cryptography on Bitcoin.

1235
01:54:25,940 --> 01:54:26,940
It's the signature, but I know it. I think not the hash.

1236
01:54:27,940 --> 01:54:28,940
This is my understanding. It may be incorrect.

1237
01:54:29,940 --> 01:54:34,940
But my understanding is the hash is totally unaffected by quantum computing.

1238
01:54:35,940 --> 01:54:37,940
But maybe I'm wrong about that.

1239
01:54:37,940 --> 01:54:40,940
I was thinking the same like you, Paul.

1240
01:54:41,940 --> 01:54:45,940
You're saying the keys will be affected for us.

1241
01:54:46,940 --> 01:54:50,940
The keys are closed and in fact it only takes 256 qubits.

1242
01:54:51,940 --> 01:54:52,940
Again, I don't know. This is not my area of expertise.

1243
01:54:53,940 --> 01:54:55,940
But I think you just have to count up to the space.

1244
01:54:56,940 --> 01:54:58,940
I don't know exactly how it works because we have...

1245
01:54:59,940 --> 01:55:00,940
See, one thing, there's many details.

1246
01:55:01,940 --> 01:55:06,940
One curious thing is that for completely historical reasons,

1247
01:55:07,940 --> 01:55:10,940
it's paid-to-pubkey hash.

1248
01:55:11,940 --> 01:55:17,940
And as a result, none of the public keys for early Bitcoin transactions are actually in the blockchain.

1249
01:55:18,940 --> 01:55:19,940
They're already hashed.

1250
01:55:20,940 --> 01:55:22,940
They're hashed, 256 hash, then RIPEMD.

1251
01:55:23,940 --> 01:55:29,940
There's only a 20-byte blob actually in the blockchain that has already been hashed twice.

1252
01:55:30,940 --> 01:55:34,940
So even with the quantum break, none of those would be broken either

1253
01:55:35,940 --> 01:55:36,940
because no one knows what the public key is.

1254
01:55:37,940 --> 01:55:40,940
The public key is not revealed until the transaction is spent.

1255
01:55:41,940 --> 01:55:43,940
At one point, you reveal the public key and the signature.

1256
01:55:44,940 --> 01:55:49,940
But for, ironically, for SegWit and Taproot,

1257
01:55:50,940 --> 01:55:54,940
it is not hashed because it's kind of a wasted 20 bytes.

1258
01:55:55,940 --> 01:55:59,940
Quantum computers don't measure data in bytes or terabytes.

1259
01:56:00,940 --> 01:56:02,940
That's how classical information is measured.

1260
01:56:03,940 --> 01:56:08,940
Quantum information changes quantum states, manipulating quantum states to solve problems.

1261
01:56:09,940 --> 01:56:12,940
And so that's why they're able to factor out through these hashes so quickly.

1262
01:56:13,940 --> 01:56:17,940
Hashes are not factoring numbers, whereas the...

1263
01:56:18,940 --> 01:56:20,940
Through the cryptography, actually.

1264
01:56:21,940 --> 01:56:23,940
So that's why if you have the public key,

1265
01:56:24,940 --> 01:56:27,940
you can probably get the private key with a quantum computer,

1266
01:56:28,940 --> 01:56:32,940
as long as it's big enough, which I think will probably happen eventually.

1267
01:56:33,940 --> 01:56:34,940
And that would be a neat trick.

1268
01:56:35,940 --> 01:56:36,940
But it won't be.

1269
01:56:37,940 --> 01:56:38,940
But I don't know.

1270
01:56:39,940 --> 01:56:40,940
Anything could happen.

1271
01:56:41,940 --> 01:56:42,940
But I think the hashes are different.

1272
01:56:43,940 --> 01:56:44,940
Because the hashes...

1273
01:56:45,940 --> 01:56:46,940
Think about it like this.

1274
01:56:47,940 --> 01:56:50,940
Every encryption thing is like, you pick a random number.

1275
01:56:51,940 --> 01:56:53,940
And then you have a way of deriving...

1276
01:56:54,940 --> 01:56:58,940
You pick a random number between 0 and 2 to the 256, which is a huge number.

1277
01:56:59,940 --> 01:57:00,940
And then you...

1278
01:57:01,940 --> 01:57:02,940
That's the private key.

1279
01:57:03,940 --> 01:57:04,940
And then from that you derive the public key.

1280
01:57:05,940 --> 01:57:07,940
And you can't go the other way.

1281
01:57:08,940 --> 01:57:10,940
But the private key is the one that is...

1282
01:57:11,940 --> 01:57:13,940
The public key is usually...

1283
01:57:14,940 --> 01:57:15,940
Has more...

1284
01:57:16,940 --> 01:57:20,940
Well, more of the same amount of space than the private key.

1285
01:57:22,940 --> 01:57:24,940
I don't know if this is a good way of explaining it.

1286
01:57:25,940 --> 01:57:27,940
But what I'm getting at is that you can hash like a 10 terabyte movie.

1287
01:57:28,940 --> 01:57:31,940
Like a hard drive, or like an 8 gigabyte movie, or like a giant hard drive.

1288
01:57:32,940 --> 01:57:36,940
You can hash those, and they always shrink down to the...

1289
01:57:37,940 --> 01:57:38,940
Whatever the size of the hash is.

1290
01:57:38,940 --> 01:57:39,940
So it's a 32 byte hash.

1291
01:57:40,940 --> 01:57:46,940
You can hash like 5 sentences, or you can hash an mp3 file, or you can hash a giant movie.

1292
01:57:47,940 --> 01:57:48,940
They all become...

1293
01:57:49,940 --> 01:57:50,940
They all get shrunk down.

1294
01:57:51,940 --> 01:57:55,940
And Bitcoin mining is hashing twice in a row.

1295
01:57:56,940 --> 01:57:57,940
With an 80 block header.

1296
01:57:58,940 --> 01:57:59,940
And so...

1297
01:58:00,940 --> 01:58:01,940
I'm not sure how it works, but...

1298
01:58:02,940 --> 01:58:05,940
Maybe someone will explain how it's possible to make...

1299
01:58:05,940 --> 01:58:06,940
I don't know.

1300
01:58:07,940 --> 01:58:08,940
But I don't think so.

1301
01:58:09,940 --> 01:58:10,940
Because what I'm saying is...

1302
01:58:11,940 --> 01:58:13,940
You have to be able to say...

1303
01:58:15,940 --> 01:58:17,940
You have to be able to say, this is the hash result.

1304
01:58:18,940 --> 01:58:21,940
And then from that, figure out, oh, it came from this...

1305
01:58:22,940 --> 01:58:28,940
It came from this 40 gigabyte DVD ISO image, or something.

1306
01:58:29,940 --> 01:58:31,940
So that's why I think it's probably just too different.

1307
01:58:32,940 --> 01:58:33,940
But I don't actually know.

1308
01:58:33,940 --> 01:58:37,940
But why don't you look into it, and then come back next week.

1309
01:58:38,940 --> 01:58:40,940
I think the hash rate should be all safe.

1310
01:58:41,940 --> 01:58:48,940
Yeah, but I'm just saying, a 256 bit number is enormous to a classical computer.

1311
01:58:49,940 --> 01:58:56,940
But anyway, when you're changing quantum states, it's not such a large feat.

1312
01:58:57,940 --> 01:59:10,940
And so I think it's interesting that IBM is now leading this coalition four years after it was alleged that their quantum team had successfully deployed a 5150 attack on a simulated Bitcoin network.

1313
01:59:14,940 --> 01:59:15,940
Well, yeah, that would be interesting.

1314
01:59:16,940 --> 01:59:18,940
Maybe you're right. Maybe they are doing it very slowly.

1315
01:59:19,940 --> 01:59:23,940
Because if that information was out, it would be hysteria everywhere.

1316
01:59:24,940 --> 01:59:35,940
Yeah, the smart thing would be to try to find one victim who can't complain, and not on the list of Satoshi's coins, and not on a whale list.

1317
01:59:36,940 --> 01:59:38,940
And then just take all their coins, and then just wait for them.

1318
01:59:39,940 --> 01:59:40,940
And they'll just think, oh, I got hacked, or whatever.

1319
01:59:41,940 --> 01:59:44,940
Anyway, we have Mobius. Mobius is back.

1320
01:59:45,940 --> 01:59:47,940
Okay, hopefully you guys can hear me.

1321
01:59:48,940 --> 01:59:49,940
Yes, we can hear you now.

1322
01:59:49,940 --> 01:59:52,940
Okay. Thank you, Paul, for this, for the space.

1323
01:59:55,940 --> 01:59:57,940
Full disclosure, I'm a newbie on this.

1324
01:59:58,940 --> 02:00:03,940
But if I understand correctly, the BIP300, you're trying to create sidechains, yes?

1325
02:00:06,210 --> 02:00:07,210
Yes.

1326
02:00:07,210 --> 02:00:20,210
And the issue is, I think you mentioned earlier in the conversation, is the size byte, you would like to change the size byte in Bitcoin mining procedure?

1327
02:00:21,210 --> 02:00:23,210
Oh, not really, no.

1328
02:00:27,210 --> 02:00:30,210
Well, I think it's one megabyte for the...

1329
02:00:30,210 --> 02:00:31,210
Oh, the block size limit.

1330
02:00:31,210 --> 02:00:32,210
Block size.

1331
02:00:32,210 --> 02:00:42,210
Well, you know, there's one thing, that was the original, I was originally interested in it because of prediction markets, but I became more, I was researching sidechains during the block size war.

1332
02:00:42,210 --> 02:00:51,210
And I think that is the first example where you have two people who really, really, really want different things. And so they would be a very good first customer.

1333
02:00:52,210 --> 02:01:00,210
But that's not the only reason. Even if it could not do that, we would still want it so that we could do extensibility and things like Zcash privacy.

1334
02:01:02,210 --> 02:01:08,210
So there is a change in the core coding of Bitcoin to allow for drivechains?

1335
02:01:09,210 --> 02:01:23,210
There's a backwards compatible soft fork. So everything that is currently done by a node, it will still do, but it will do one new thing also.

1336
02:01:24,210 --> 02:01:37,210
Gotcha. And how you do the, I'm thinking more of the financial side, an exchange rate between the sidechain, whatever that might be, and Bitcoin directly?

1337
02:01:39,210 --> 02:01:49,210
Well, it's a one-to-one rate, and that's on the sidechain side. So from the Bitcoin side, it doesn't, it only knows how to add and subtract coins, you know.

1338
02:01:49,210 --> 02:01:53,210
So it's just saying, take five coins from here, put them here.

1339
02:01:54,210 --> 02:01:55,210
So would you be able to...

1340
02:01:55,210 --> 02:02:02,210
And so it puts the coins in the UTXO, and then it's the sidechain that says, okay, wait, seven coins were sent to this, seven coins were deposited into this script.

1341
02:02:02,210 --> 02:02:14,210
So I need to credit seven coins on the sidechain. And then when people withdraw the coins, they say, okay, I need to destroy five coins here on the sidechain and then unlock five coins on L1.

1342
02:02:15,210 --> 02:02:26,210
Gotcha. Is it fair to think as a staking, like a certain amount of Bitcoin goes to the sidechain and stays there as a collateral type of thing?

1343
02:02:27,210 --> 02:02:40,210
Well, I wouldn't, that last part is not quite it. So I think that that's very close. But it's really just deposits and withdrawals, depositing into an ATM and then taking money out or something like that.

1344
02:02:40,210 --> 02:02:48,210
Depositing, going to a casino and giving them cash, and then taking the chips back and redeeming it for cash. It's a little more like that.

1345
02:02:48,210 --> 02:03:02,210
So you wouldn't really say that you've staked. If you go to a casino and you give them $2,000 and they give you chips, you wouldn't really say, well, I staked my... You just kind of, you haven't really exchanged them. Then you exchange them back.

1346
02:03:03,210 --> 02:03:20,210
So the issue that I've been trying to conceptualize in my head is, okay, if it's an exchange for one-to-one and let's say the drivechain, whatever study case that might be, creates more wealth within that sidechain, sidechain, drivetrain.

1347
02:03:21,210 --> 02:03:33,210
How can you come back at this point? How would you be able to account for the extra tokens, I guess, that happen in the sidechain on the L2?

1348
02:03:33,210 --> 02:03:48,210
Well, you're saying something like the sidechain, someone deposits five Bitcoin and then the sidechain says there's eight Bitcoin there or something. That's what you're saying? Something like that?

1349
02:03:48,210 --> 02:04:13,210
Well, is those L2s will be, I don't know, some sort of a reward system if you do this or if you do that, there's more rewards that is distributed. Therefore, you end up with an imbalance of what I would call tokens and Bitcoin that was initially brought into this new L2.

1350
02:04:14,210 --> 02:04:31,210
Well, yeah, that would not be really viable. But let's just imagine that you program the sidechain badly and every third time you send someone money, it duplicates the coins or something.

1351
02:04:31,210 --> 02:04:42,210
Someone sends five coins over there and they send two coins to person A, two to B, then send them again, two to person C, and they duplicate. And now there's seven coins over there.

1352
02:04:43,210 --> 02:05:02,210
On L1, there's still only five coins in the VIV300 script. So, of course, on L1, you can never counterfeit any coins. So what happens is the sidechain only owns five coins, so to speak.

1353
02:05:04,210 --> 02:05:10,210
It cannot function as an inflation type of token. It has to be as a divisible type of token. Is that correct?

1354
02:05:10,210 --> 02:05:26,210
Right. Yeah. And what will happen is probably is everyone will try. It'll be exactly as if the casino people deposit. I don't know if it's a good analogy at all, but it'll be like a bank run type of a thing.

1355
02:05:27,210 --> 02:05:45,210
The first five people to deposit to withdraw from the sidechain will get one-to-one coins, and the last two people will get nothing. So that would probably kill the sidechain instantaneously, unless the sidechain could be programmed to somehow take that into account.

1356
02:05:46,210 --> 02:05:52,210
But if you're doing that, you would just do a bunch of other weird stuff. So I don't know why. I don't know what the point of that would be.

1357
02:05:55,210 --> 02:06:06,210
So you'd have to program. It would have to be something you'd program in advance. You'd say something like, every minute your coins are here, a percentage of them rots away, and it goes to something else.

1358
02:06:07,210 --> 02:06:19,210
So let me ask a different question then. So let's say you have multiple sidechains, and if they want to exchange – well, I guess at this point it's one-to-one like you're saying. Okay.

1359
02:06:21,210 --> 02:06:26,210
Okay. Thank you for your time, and sorry for being a little newbie on this. It's fascinating.

1360
02:06:27,210 --> 02:06:31,210
Yeah, it's fine. Great. Thanks for your interest.

1361
02:06:37,210 --> 02:06:45,210
Well, that's pretty good. So far we've done two hours, which is not bad. We have a pretty good group here.

1362
02:06:46,210 --> 02:06:55,210
I see a lot of people have stayed since it first opened, so that's great.

1363
02:06:56,210 --> 02:07:01,210
The negative one IQ guy is still here, so that's good. We have a wide representation.

1364
02:07:07,210 --> 02:07:19,210
Yep, so feel free to come up, ask your question or comment, because you know what will happen if no one comes up.

1365
02:07:20,210 --> 02:07:28,210
Then we will end the space, so we don't want to do that. We want the space to go for like 50 hours.

1366
02:07:37,210 --> 02:07:46,210
Maybe we should do something like at a baseball game, if there's too much dead time, they do funny little things and do little races and things.

1367
02:07:47,210 --> 02:07:53,210
We should have little games we play when stuff happens, when there's dead time.

1368
02:07:54,210 --> 02:07:55,210
I have a question, Paul.

1369
02:07:56,210 --> 02:07:57,210
Oh, great.

1370
02:07:58,210 --> 02:08:08,210
I've noticed over the years there's been a lot of sidechain alternatives or proposals.

1371
02:08:09,210 --> 02:08:16,210
There's SpaceChain and SurfChain, now recently SpiderChain proposed by Botanist Labs.

1372
02:08:17,210 --> 02:08:23,210
I wonder what's your opinion on these alternatives and do you think they will catch on eventually?

1373
02:08:24,210 --> 02:08:26,210
Yeah, I don't think it's good.

1374
02:08:27,210 --> 02:08:36,210
That's good, great question. I really do believe in pluralism, so I think that we should try everything.

1375
02:08:37,210 --> 02:08:46,210
The SpiderChain idea, though, is an example of how pluralism is failing, because the whole thing that people hold up is complicated and kind of weird.

1376
02:08:47,210 --> 02:08:55,210
It has some clever ideas. It has this first in, first out idea, which is kind of interesting.

1377
02:08:56,210 --> 02:09:00,210
But what people hold up about it is they say, this doesn't need a soft fork.

1378
02:09:01,210 --> 02:09:08,210
What they're really saying is we're committed to, now not only are we not going to ever do anything that's a hard fork, which I fully understand,

1379
02:09:08,210 --> 02:09:18,210
but we're not going to do anything that's a soft fork or even something that is a very soft fork, like something that is an almost ignorable soft fork.

1380
02:09:19,210 --> 02:09:25,210
It just shows you how far people are being pushed to not do something.

1381
02:09:26,210 --> 02:09:31,210
I see it as honestly a symptom of the disease that it even comes up at all.

1382
02:09:32,210 --> 02:09:35,210
We really should be more pluralist and we should do more things.

1383
02:09:35,210 --> 02:09:42,210
Some specific critiques of the idea are that it does have...

1384
02:09:43,210 --> 02:09:49,210
To me, it's all very clear and plain, which is that the Drivechain idea is very clear and plain,

1385
02:09:50,210 --> 02:09:57,210
because the miners are the ones who ultimately can veto any message we're making into the blockchain.

1386
02:09:57,210 --> 02:09:59,210
Every transaction has to be included.

1387
02:10:00,210 --> 02:10:07,210
Since the miners have power and responsibility, ownership and control, they all have to go together.

1388
02:10:08,210 --> 02:10:14,210
The miners are the ones who collect the fee. They're the ones who decide which transactions made it in time.

1389
02:10:15,210 --> 02:10:19,210
The miners get all the money. Since the miners are already getting the money, the new transaction fees,

1390
02:10:20,210 --> 02:10:26,210
it stands to reason that since they get paid in Bitcoin and since they have a 100 block maturity period and all that,

1391
02:10:27,210 --> 02:10:32,210
and since they are the least liquid investors in Bitcoin through the mining stuff,

1392
02:10:33,210 --> 02:10:36,210
they are the ones who are...

1393
02:10:37,210 --> 02:10:41,210
Since they're collecting all the transaction fees, they might as well do these deposit withdrawal things,

1394
02:10:42,210 --> 02:10:44,210
because even if you have ZK-SNARK or whatever.

1395
02:10:44,210 --> 02:10:51,210
To me, I have this very crisp vision of what to do.

1396
02:10:52,210 --> 02:10:54,210
Other people do this weird multi-sig thing where they say,

1397
02:10:55,210 --> 02:11:03,210
the way SpiderChains works is you stake some coins and you get some control over the pot.

1398
02:11:04,210 --> 02:11:15,210
If you have the earliest 75%, then you can rug the newest 25%.

1399
02:11:16,210 --> 02:11:19,210
Of course, they can steal from you.

1400
02:11:20,210 --> 02:11:25,210
This is what people don't get about L2s. Someone can always steal, because I get that critique myself.

1401
02:11:26,210 --> 02:11:30,210
I get the miners can steal critique, but I'm just trying to tell you why I don't buy the miners can steal critique,

1402
02:11:30,210 --> 02:11:35,210
because the miners can always steal, and the miners are the ones making all the money.

1403
02:11:36,210 --> 02:11:37,210
So I've never cared.

1404
02:11:38,210 --> 02:11:46,210
But instead of miners stealing, you have a situation where miners can steal and 75% of the oldest coins can steal.

1405
02:11:47,210 --> 02:11:51,210
It's just a very complicated and convoluted thing that involves the user.

1406
02:11:52,210 --> 02:11:57,210
All these federations, the user has to choose which federation am I depositing to.

1407
02:11:58,210 --> 02:12:00,210
I don't think people really like to do that.

1408
02:12:01,210 --> 02:12:03,210
I think that's kind of set up as a lot of work.

1409
02:12:04,210 --> 02:12:13,210
At best, it will lead to commercials for people or politician-type things or reputations.

1410
02:12:14,210 --> 02:12:19,210
That's also why I don't think FedEvent will do great, but I think we should try all these things.

1411
02:12:20,210 --> 02:12:24,210
I think the miners can always screw up.

1412
02:12:24,210 --> 02:12:29,210
Since the miners control L1, and they control which messages are filtered,

1413
02:12:30,210 --> 02:12:35,210
I have never really cared about the whole miners can steal thing, because the miners can always steal.

1414
02:12:36,210 --> 02:12:39,210
And so I don't even really care. I sacrifice something that I think is already dead.

1415
02:12:40,210 --> 02:12:48,210
And so the idea is that when people get away from that, they just make it so someone else can steal.

1416
02:12:49,210 --> 02:12:52,210
And it's usually someone else can steal and also the miners can also steal.

1417
02:12:52,210 --> 02:12:57,210
And you never know if the miners are also wearing two hats and there are these other people.

1418
02:12:58,210 --> 02:13:06,210
I don't really get it. And the fact that it doesn't need a soft fork, I think, is a bad thing.

1419
02:13:07,210 --> 02:13:12,210
It's just encouraging people to make these convoluted federation things.

1420
02:13:13,210 --> 02:13:26,210
It's because of an attitude like that that we can't have, for example, a UTXO commitment soft forked into Bitcoin.

1421
02:13:27,210 --> 02:13:31,210
And what we should do is just rip off this band-aid about this soft fork nonsense.

1422
02:13:32,210 --> 02:13:38,210
I disagree with it. So that's just my opinion about it. I don't know if that helps.

1423
02:13:39,210 --> 02:13:51,210
Since you touched on soft forks, do you think there will come a point when it will be impossible to activate any soft forks anymore?

1424
02:13:52,210 --> 02:14:06,210
And also, from what you said, do you think you can always soft fork again and again and again, but wouldn't the chain become over-encumbered in rules eventually?

1425
02:14:06,210 --> 02:14:11,210
Well, you can soft fork to add a rule that is less encumbering.

1426
02:14:12,210 --> 02:14:18,210
So, for example, you can soft fork add op drivechain, but then you make a new rule that says,

1427
02:14:19,210 --> 02:14:25,210
instead of enforcing op drivechain with op and op5, you just say op and op5 is banned permanently.

1428
02:14:26,210 --> 02:14:36,210
So now you have tightened the rules twice, but the effect is actually very, very easy to enforce.

1429
02:14:37,210 --> 02:14:42,210
Yeah, but then you lose an opcode, don't you? So you actually were run out of opcodes.

1430
02:14:43,210 --> 02:14:53,210
Well, you know, really, because you can say op and op9 is like, check the next two bytes, and that is the real number now.

1431
02:14:53,210 --> 02:15:00,210
And then when you get to 99, you can say, oh, if you use op99, check the next three bytes, and that is the real.

1432
02:15:01,210 --> 02:15:03,210
So you actually have an unlimited number, really.

1433
02:15:04,210 --> 02:15:09,210
All right, I get it. Do you think eventually it will be impossible to do any more soft forks?

1434
02:15:10,210 --> 02:15:19,210
I go back and forth on that. I think probably the answer is no, because I think where there's a will, there's a way, and the soft fork is just too easy to actually do.

1435
02:15:19,210 --> 02:15:23,210
It's if either users or miners or whatever, if anyone wants to do it.

1436
02:15:24,210 --> 02:15:30,210
The modern idea of the soft fork as being this horrible thing is just a weird fiction, in my view.

1437
02:15:31,210 --> 02:15:38,210
I think it only exists because of miners' guilt about participating in SegWit2x, which was a hard fork anyway.

1438
02:15:39,210 --> 02:15:42,210
It had nothing to do with soft fork, so it's completely unrelated guilt.

1439
02:15:43,210 --> 02:15:49,210
And I think that's the real reason behind it all, and I think so that's just irrational.

1440
02:15:50,210 --> 02:15:56,210
Eventually it will be replaced by a more rational idea, which is, does this make the miners more money?

1441
02:15:57,210 --> 02:15:59,210
Is it good for Bitcoin users?

1442
02:16:00,210 --> 02:16:03,210
Do the pros outweigh the cons?

1443
02:16:04,210 --> 02:16:06,210
And it's only because of SegWit2x.

1444
02:16:07,210 --> 02:16:12,210
I think if we lived in a parallel universe where the SegWit drama never happened, there would also not be soft fork drama.

1445
02:16:13,210 --> 02:16:19,210
I think also the soft fork, we had a big casualty in terms of languages.

1446
02:16:20,210 --> 02:16:29,210
In terms of language, because the word soft fork changed definition and it became defined.

1447
02:16:30,210 --> 02:16:37,210
It changed definition and the two definitions conflict with each other, which has led to enormous chaos.

1448
02:16:38,210 --> 02:16:41,210
And unfortunately, it's very difficult to undo.

1449
02:16:42,210 --> 02:16:44,210
But it would be nice if we could undo it.

1450
02:16:44,210 --> 02:16:52,210
The real definition of soft fork should be something that does not interfere with anything that a node is currently doing.

1451
02:16:53,210 --> 02:16:56,210
And that's kind of the older definition.

1452
02:16:57,210 --> 02:17:03,210
And when Peter Todd had a very clever thing about the evil fork, which was very clever.

1453
02:17:04,210 --> 02:17:11,210
But I think unwittingly, unintentionally, he was a part of this changing the definition of soft fork.

1454
02:17:11,210 --> 02:17:13,210
And I don't think he intended to do that at all.

1455
02:17:14,210 --> 02:17:15,210
I think it was actually happening.

1456
02:17:16,210 --> 02:17:18,210
For some reason, it was just happening subconsciously.

1457
02:17:19,210 --> 02:17:22,210
It had switched because it was all based on the block size limit.

1458
02:17:23,210 --> 02:17:29,210
So the idea of shrinking the block size being a soft fork, but increasing it being a hard fork, that was just too easy for people to understand.

1459
02:17:30,210 --> 02:17:36,210
And as a result, the loosening of the rules versus tightening of the rules definition took over.

1460
02:17:36,210 --> 02:17:46,210
But people didn't realize how different it was from the opt-in versus backwards compatible versus mandatory upgrade.

1461
02:17:47,210 --> 02:17:48,210
So that was different.

1462
02:17:49,210 --> 02:17:52,210
So I think unfortunately, the language got all screwed up.

1463
02:17:53,210 --> 02:18:02,210
And as a result, people's thoughts got all screwed up, which you can hardly blame anyone because the language is really, really important.

1464
02:18:02,210 --> 02:18:09,210
We're very, as many commentators have pointed out, the language is a very important thing.

1465
02:18:10,210 --> 02:18:14,210
So I'm not sure.

1466
02:18:15,210 --> 02:18:26,210
But what I really think is that probably if the soft fork makes the right case, because what I really think will happen is eventually someone will crack interoperability, which I think BIP300 will be the thing.

1467
02:18:27,210 --> 02:18:28,210
But if it's not, it will be something else.

1468
02:18:28,210 --> 02:18:35,210
And when that happens, the cult people will all be killed off anyway.

1469
02:18:36,210 --> 02:18:37,210
They will literally be killed off.

1470
02:18:38,210 --> 02:18:39,210
So what I'm getting at is this.

1471
02:18:40,210 --> 02:18:41,210
You have something like BIP300.

1472
02:18:42,210 --> 02:18:43,210
Now Bitcoiners have their EVM chain.

1473
02:18:44,210 --> 02:18:45,210
They have their large blockchain.

1474
02:18:46,210 --> 02:18:47,210
They have their Zcash privacy chain.

1475
02:18:48,210 --> 02:18:50,210
People can spin up a new Bitcoin drivechain whenever they want.

1476
02:18:51,210 --> 02:19:00,210
Well, now there's not as much of a need for people to go around, for Giacomo Zucco to go around and say everything that's not Bitcoin is a scam.

1477
02:19:01,210 --> 02:19:05,210
Because he's only calling Bitcoiners like participants in a scam.

1478
02:19:06,210 --> 02:19:09,210
And they're consenting adults and they choose to use a certain way.

1479
02:19:10,210 --> 02:19:12,210
So it just won't mean anything.

1480
02:19:13,210 --> 02:19:17,210
And the whole point of it all is to stop Bitcoin from changing into Ethereum, but that's already what BIP300 does.

1481
02:19:18,210 --> 02:19:24,210
It already stops that from happening by moving all Ethereum-like things to their own piece of software.

1482
02:19:25,210 --> 02:19:32,210
So I think once someone does that, the drama will all fall by like 99.99%.

1483
02:19:33,210 --> 02:19:36,210
So when the drama falls, it will be much easier for productive people to get things done.

1484
02:19:37,210 --> 02:19:41,210
And they'll just, a soft fork update will go back to being normal.

1485
02:19:42,210 --> 02:19:43,210
But I'm not sure about that.

1486
02:19:44,210 --> 02:19:45,210
It's possible that it will not.

1487
02:19:45,210 --> 02:19:46,210
Anyway, we had TheNate and Alex.

1488
02:19:47,210 --> 02:19:48,210
They had their hands up for a while.

1489
02:19:49,210 --> 02:19:50,210
So why don't we do TheNate.

1490
02:19:51,210 --> 02:19:52,210
Hello.

1491
02:19:51,742 --> 02:19:58,742
Hey, Paul. Thanks for bringing me up. Maybe you already answered this. I was late to the space.

1492
02:19:58,742 --> 02:20:05,742
And also, I'm kind of just like parroting a question I keep hearing in other places. I just haven't heard an answer to it yet.

1493
02:20:05,742 --> 02:20:10,742
I also just don't know a lot about drivechains. So maybe I'm asking a relative question.

1494
02:20:10,742 --> 02:20:18,742
But if Bitcoin needs drivechains, why not implement them on Litecoin and or Liquid?

1495
02:20:18,742 --> 02:20:21,742
And then if that brings more users to that, then maybe Bitcoin needs them.

1496
02:20:21,742 --> 02:20:27,742
But rather than, why not do that first, as opposed to pushing to put drivechains on Bitcoin now?

1497
02:20:27,742 --> 02:20:34,742
Yeah, we get that question a lot. And I think I always get the same answer, which is that I'm not opposed to that.

1498
02:20:34,742 --> 02:20:46,742
But I don't really want to help Litecoin. And doing it on Liquid is kind of a contradiction because Liquid is defederated.

1499
02:20:46,742 --> 02:20:55,742
So what are you going to do? The Federation could already do its own. The Federation kind of competes with BIP300.

1500
02:20:55,742 --> 02:20:59,742
But I think doing it on Litecoin could be a good idea. I think that could be in the cards.

1501
02:20:59,742 --> 02:21:06,742
If anyone from Litecoin would ever contact me and say, we want to do it, will you help us?

1502
02:21:06,742 --> 02:21:12,742
I would say yes, but I'm not really going to go out of the way to do it over there.

1503
02:21:12,742 --> 02:21:18,742
That's not like a big priority for me. Instead, we try to make, we already have testnet version.

1504
02:21:18,742 --> 02:21:24,742
If you if you go to drivechain.info slash releases, we have a play money version.

1505
02:21:24,742 --> 02:21:34,742
And I don't think that it would. See, the thing is, I don't really think I'm not sure what it would actually demonstrate other than the code doesn't have bugs.

1506
02:21:35,742 --> 02:21:43,742
So if you. But yeah, I think we have we are building tests.

1507
02:21:43,742 --> 02:21:55,742
So one thing that is interesting to point out is. If we build the sidechains themselves, which is what we're doing now, the sidechains can be used on anything that activates BIP300.

1508
02:21:55,742 --> 02:22:03,742
So if we build like Zcash sidechain, anyone who activates BIP300 can take advantage of it.

1509
02:22:03,742 --> 02:22:15,742
So in that way. The. Like that is where the focus should be.

1510
02:22:15,742 --> 02:22:27,742
And so that's what I spend my time on, but I'm not I'm just kind of like not really interested in Litecoin is like, you know, a shit coin.

1511
02:22:27,742 --> 02:22:32,742
But I think it's fine to or to even make a new coin.

1512
02:22:32,742 --> 02:22:38,742
It may even be better to do a hard fork so that and they have a chance that it does really well.

1513
02:22:38,742 --> 02:22:45,742
Bitcoiners don't lose out to Litecoin. But I think that it's also like.

1514
02:22:45,742 --> 02:22:49,742
The the goal is to help Bitcoin succeed.

1515
02:22:49,742 --> 02:22:54,742
And so we already have testnet software that is with play money.

1516
02:22:54,742 --> 02:23:01,742
And so I don't know what exactly that. But if anyway, if people from Litecoin want to do that, then I will.

1517
02:23:01,742 --> 02:23:07,742
Sort of help them.

1518
02:23:07,742 --> 02:23:15,742
Yeah, cool. I'm far too ignorant of like the broader scope of this to think much past that, but it seems like a fair answer. Thanks.

1519
02:23:15,742 --> 02:23:18,742
That's all I got.

1520
02:23:18,742 --> 02:23:24,742
Cool, thanks. Alex.

1521
02:23:24,742 --> 02:23:28,742
Hey, Paul, thank you for bringing me up. Quick question. It's been a while.

1522
02:23:28,742 --> 02:23:36,742
I haven't been in the space, but I was wondering how come we haven't seen so much smart contracts on Bitcoin type of approaches taking place,

1523
02:23:36,742 --> 02:23:42,742
given that I think that would help actually the space a lot. I'm curious to hear your take on that.

1524
02:23:42,742 --> 02:23:45,742
Sure. I actually think it's I think it's kind of a small thing.

1525
02:23:45,742 --> 02:23:56,742
It's partially historical where Ethereum was created and it used to this smart contract phrase is marketing type thing.

1526
02:23:56,742 --> 02:24:01,742
And everyone in Bitcoin hated it at the time, hated Ethereum back in 2014, 2015.

1527
02:24:01,742 --> 02:24:07,742
So it's become like a point of differentiation between Bitcoin and Ethereum.

1528
02:24:07,742 --> 02:24:12,742
Where I would go out of I would say that people in Bitcoin go out of their way not to do it.

1529
02:24:12,742 --> 02:24:16,742
And in fact, you get you almost get shamed instead of praised.

1530
02:24:16,742 --> 02:24:26,742
You almost get shamed if you do it on Bitcoin, because it looks like you are the type of person who would be misled into thinking that Ethereum was was cool or whatever.

1531
02:24:26,742 --> 02:24:29,742
So people really, really don't don't like it.

1532
02:24:29,742 --> 02:24:34,742
And then people say stuff like, well, Bitcoin already has smart contracts.

1533
02:24:34,742 --> 02:24:40,742
Bitcoin has, you know, HTLCs, stuff like that.

1534
02:24:40,742 --> 02:24:46,742
I think that Ethereum started off, you know, is very unpopular in the Bitcoin community in 2014 and 2015.

1535
02:24:46,742 --> 02:24:51,742
And it sort of has always been that way. And it.

1536
02:24:51,742 --> 02:24:57,742
So the most of the stuff that Ethereum was doing for years was was objectively terrible.

1537
02:24:57,742 --> 02:25:03,742
And then only later did it slowly start to evolve into becoming useful to some people.

1538
02:25:03,742 --> 02:25:08,742
And I think a lot of people formed an opinion about Ethereum long ago that they never really updated.

1539
02:25:08,742 --> 02:25:11,742
And so they still just think that this is the same.

1540
02:25:11,742 --> 02:25:16,742
Like one of the first things Ethereum had was like a transparent Ponzi scheme.

1541
02:25:16,742 --> 02:25:23,742
Which was very funny, and it would like randomly, it was like cryptographically random and it would like pay out or something.

1542
02:25:24,742 --> 02:25:30,742
This was many years ago, but I think a lot of people still think of a lot of people in Bitcoin still think of.

1543
02:25:30,742 --> 02:25:35,742
It's really a shame because it just goes to show.

1544
02:25:35,742 --> 02:25:42,742
The effect of sour grapes, where if someone just plants a flag in the ground and they say we will be.

1545
02:25:42,742 --> 02:25:45,742
Smart contracts where Ethereum.

1546
02:25:45,742 --> 02:25:48,742
Then Bitcoin will go from saying that's a stupid idea.

1547
02:25:48,742 --> 02:25:50,742
And then they'll say no one ever wanted that.

1548
02:25:50,742 --> 02:25:51,742
And then say everyone.

1549
02:25:51,742 --> 02:25:55,742
There are many, many high profile Bitcoin people who say something.

1550
02:25:56,742 --> 02:26:01,742
It's very hard to actually translate it into a coherent thought.

1551
02:26:01,742 --> 02:26:05,742
But as best I can tell what these people are saying is something like.

1552
02:26:06,742 --> 02:26:10,742
Every single user of Ethereum is being deceived.

1553
02:26:11,742 --> 02:26:16,742
Or every single user of Ethereum is it's all illegitimate.

1554
02:26:16,742 --> 02:26:21,742
It's all a big show and they're just trying to pump their ETH bags or something.

1555
02:26:21,742 --> 02:26:24,742
And this whole thing about them having all these fees.

1556
02:26:24,742 --> 02:26:32,742
So it's just this weird cultural rift that this word was claimed by this phrase smart contracts.

1557
02:26:32,742 --> 02:26:36,742
It's claimed by Ethereum and then people in Bitcoin.

1558
02:26:37,742 --> 02:26:44,742
Your Bitcoin career will suffer if you fraternize with the enemy.

1559
02:26:45,742 --> 02:26:46,742
And it's very irrational.

1560
02:26:46,742 --> 02:26:48,742
But that's the reality is.

1561
02:26:48,742 --> 02:26:50,742
That's certainly what I lived through.

1562
02:26:50,742 --> 02:26:51,742
I don't know.

1563
02:26:51,742 --> 02:26:53,742
Maybe someone else has a very different experience.

1564
02:26:55,742 --> 02:27:00,742
But I think the other thing, of course, is most of the smart contract stuff really was low quality.

1565
02:27:00,742 --> 02:27:03,742
And it really was sort of scammy.

1566
02:27:05,742 --> 02:27:08,742
So then everyone, you know, a couple of bad apples spoil them.

1567
02:27:08,742 --> 02:27:10,742
One bad apple spoils the bunch or whatever.

1568
02:27:10,742 --> 02:27:13,742
So they just think this phrase is a dead phrase.

1569
02:27:15,742 --> 02:27:19,742
But, yeah, I think, you know, in the past there was Rootstock RSK,

1570
02:27:19,742 --> 02:27:23,742
which was just going to duplicate everything done on Ethereum, which still does.

1571
02:27:23,742 --> 02:27:24,742
That is like what they do.

1572
02:27:24,742 --> 02:27:28,742
You can go to their site and they duplicate what Ethereum does.

1573
02:27:28,742 --> 02:27:32,742
There's like a Rootstock version of whatever, Uniswap and all this stuff.

1574
02:27:33,742 --> 02:27:39,742
So that used to be met with cheers and applause back in the day.

1575
02:27:39,742 --> 02:27:48,742
But now it's kind of like it's much more that you have these people who say we don't want that on Bitcoin.

1576
02:27:50,742 --> 02:27:53,742
So it's very much a choice to some extent.

1577
02:27:55,742 --> 02:27:57,742
People say, get that out of here.

1578
02:27:57,742 --> 02:27:58,742
We don't want anyone.

1579
02:27:59,742 --> 02:28:00,742
It's like a weird.

1580
02:28:01,742 --> 02:28:05,742
It's a cultural war.

1581
02:28:06,742 --> 02:28:07,742
Someone called Bill O'Reilly.

1582
02:28:10,742 --> 02:28:13,742
Right.

1583
02:28:13,742 --> 02:28:15,742
Thank you for the answer.

1584
02:28:15,742 --> 02:28:16,742
I was always wondering.

1585
02:28:16,742 --> 02:28:19,742
I remember when we had this update.

1586
02:28:19,742 --> 02:28:23,742
I always anticipated that given we're rising the block size, fees are going to go lower.

1587
02:28:23,742 --> 02:28:25,742
So somebody's going to start doing that.

1588
02:28:25,742 --> 02:28:26,742
Never happened.

1589
02:28:26,742 --> 02:28:29,742
But, yeah, no, thank you for the answer.

1590
02:28:30,742 --> 02:28:35,742
And I hope we can kind of move past that, given the centralization that Ethereum has at the moment.

1591
02:28:35,742 --> 02:28:41,742
I think people should look on more decentralized kind of networks to build stuff.

1592
02:28:41,742 --> 02:28:42,742
I don't know.

1593
02:28:42,742 --> 02:28:43,742
Just my take.

1594
02:28:44,742 --> 02:28:52,742
Yeah, I'm disappointed that the main competitor to Bitcoin is something as disappointing as Ethereum.

1595
02:28:53,742 --> 02:28:54,742
Here.

1596
02:29:00,742 --> 02:29:03,742
Anyway, we had Justin or Alex.

1597
02:29:03,742 --> 02:29:04,742
I think you have them here.

1598
02:29:09,742 --> 02:29:10,742
OK, good.

1599
02:29:11,742 --> 02:29:16,742
Anyway, I don't know if that people could hear that, but I was saying that I think it's competition is good.

1600
02:29:16,742 --> 02:29:19,742
So it would be better for Bitcoin if we had more competitors.

1601
02:29:19,742 --> 02:29:27,742
And our main competitors are like Ethereum, which I think is really just not that great as a competitor.

1602
02:29:27,742 --> 02:29:28,742
You know, whatever.

1603
02:29:28,742 --> 02:29:29,742
What else?

1604
02:29:29,742 --> 02:29:30,742
What else is a competitor to Bitcoin like?

1605
02:29:31,742 --> 02:29:35,742
It's I would lament the fact that we don't have a second best.

1606
02:29:38,742 --> 02:29:40,742
Anyway, we have a Justin 75 IQ.

1607
02:29:40,742 --> 02:29:41,742
Oh, wait, no, we don't.

1608
02:29:42,742 --> 02:29:43,742
We had him, but we lost him.

1609
02:29:45,742 --> 02:29:48,742
76 is required.

1610
02:29:49,742 --> 02:29:50,742
No, I'm just kidding.

1611
02:29:51,742 --> 02:29:55,742
Anyway, we had him, but he seems to have glitched out or maybe he'll be back.

1612
02:29:56,742 --> 02:29:57,742
Now we have a pulse.

1613
02:29:57,742 --> 02:29:58,742
Sorry about that.

1614
02:29:58,742 --> 02:29:59,742
Pulse.

1615
02:29:59,742 --> 02:30:00,742
Pulse LN.

1616
02:30:01,742 --> 02:30:04,742
Oh, wait, we have Justin again.

1617
02:30:04,742 --> 02:30:05,742
Hello.

1618
02:30:05,742 --> 02:30:06,742
Oh, hey, Paul.

1619
02:30:06,742 --> 02:30:07,742
It was nice meeting you at Tabcon.

1620
02:30:08,742 --> 02:30:09,742
Yeah, we had some great conversation.

1621
02:30:10,742 --> 02:30:12,742
I also wanted to thank the guy who bought everyone dinner.

1622
02:30:13,742 --> 02:30:14,742
That was nice.

1623
02:30:15,742 --> 02:30:18,742
So my question was.

1624
02:30:20,742 --> 02:30:21,742
Yeah, that guy's great.

1625
02:30:22,742 --> 02:30:23,742
It wasn't me.

1626
02:30:26,742 --> 02:30:28,742
I have two questions.

1627
02:30:28,742 --> 02:30:29,742
The first one.

1628
02:30:30,742 --> 02:30:42,742
So now that I know what oracles are and prediction markets, how does your hive mind system identify spammers?

1629
02:30:43,742 --> 02:30:47,742
Like, are there super nodes that kind of check things?

1630
02:30:49,742 --> 02:30:50,742
Or.

1631
02:30:51,742 --> 02:30:52,742
Well, what do you mean?

1632
02:30:53,742 --> 02:30:54,742
By.

1633
02:30:54,742 --> 02:31:04,742
So, like, if there's a prediction going on for a certain election, for example, and everyone's betting on it, that that is what a prediction market is, correct?

1634
02:31:07,742 --> 02:31:08,742
Yes.

1635
02:31:08,742 --> 02:31:10,742
So any event, really?

1636
02:31:12,742 --> 02:31:13,742
I guess.

1637
02:31:13,742 --> 02:31:14,742
Where does that that truth come from?

1638
02:31:15,742 --> 02:31:17,742
Does it come from just Google?

1639
02:31:18,742 --> 02:31:19,742
Yes.

1640
02:31:19,742 --> 02:31:25,742
Well, you know, the white paper is about that and it's very long and it's like 50 pages long and there's like appendices and things.

1641
02:31:26,742 --> 02:31:27,742
OK.

1642
02:31:27,742 --> 02:31:28,742
It's like.

1643
02:31:28,742 --> 02:31:29,742
It's like 80.

1644
02:31:29,742 --> 02:31:30,742
But it's.

1645
02:31:30,742 --> 02:31:31,742
But it's.

1646
02:31:31,742 --> 02:31:35,742
I hate to say that, but I try to give you some idea of what I do is it's people making.

1647
02:31:36,742 --> 02:31:45,742
There is a distributed like sort of corporation, so to speak, that's on the blockchain where today you would we would say stake.

1648
02:31:45,742 --> 02:31:54,742
But really, I'm not sure what you basically people stake coins that get slashed if they misbehave, where misbehavior is very, very carefully defined.

1649
02:31:55,742 --> 02:31:56,742
So we have people buy in.

1650
02:31:59,742 --> 02:32:00,742
To basically the Oracle Corporation.

1651
02:32:00,742 --> 02:32:12,742
This Oracle Corporation, its job is to resolve, you know, give the truth for each market and it collects the the fees.

1652
02:32:12,742 --> 02:32:14,742
So they're the primary beneficiary.

1653
02:32:15,742 --> 02:32:16,742
They're making all this money.

1654
02:32:17,742 --> 02:32:19,742
The more people trade in the markets.

1655
02:32:21,742 --> 02:32:22,742
And so that's that's the.

1656
02:32:24,742 --> 02:32:26,742
Sort of layer one of the onion.

1657
02:32:27,742 --> 02:32:31,742
And so it's the corporation that resolves them all at a certain time.

1658
02:32:32,742 --> 02:32:38,742
So in like April 1st, so like you have the events, they have a time period associated with them.

1659
02:32:39,742 --> 02:32:41,742
So they say, like, we're betting on the election happens in November.

1660
02:32:42,742 --> 02:32:44,742
That would be Q4 of the year.

1661
02:32:45,742 --> 02:32:50,742
So after Q4 ends, there's a list of all the questions you're supposed to be able to answer now.

1662
02:32:50,742 --> 02:32:54,742
Because it's January 1st and you have to answer everything that happened in Q4 of the previous year.

1663
02:32:56,742 --> 02:32:59,742
And then so you're supposed to do that by April 1st.

1664
02:33:00,742 --> 02:33:04,742
So it's you have a really, really long time to resolve this.

1665
02:33:05,742 --> 02:33:08,742
And there's a reason why that doesn't matter, which I can happily explain.

1666
02:33:09,742 --> 02:33:13,742
But it'll get a little complicated and in the weeds.

1667
02:33:14,742 --> 02:33:16,742
And I don't know if there'll be a riot.

1668
02:33:16,742 --> 02:33:22,742
Since it has nothing to do with Drivechain per se, even though it is, it would be a Drivechain if we had BIP300 activated.

1669
02:33:23,742 --> 02:33:27,742
We would have it on Bitcoin, which would be great.

1670
02:33:28,742 --> 02:33:32,742
But what it does is you people buy into the corporation on April 1st.

1671
02:33:33,742 --> 02:33:36,742
Everyone is supposed to have submitted their stuff for what happened in Q4.

1672
02:33:37,742 --> 02:33:38,742
And this is on a rolling basis.

1673
02:33:39,742 --> 02:33:43,742
So, you know, by the time you make it to July 1st, you're supposed to have.

1674
02:33:44,742 --> 02:33:48,742
You're supposed to have finished answering everything that happened in Q1.

1675
02:33:49,742 --> 02:33:50,742
And so that's part of it.

1676
02:33:51,742 --> 02:33:53,742
The corporation means that you don't exit scam.

1677
02:33:54,742 --> 02:34:01,742
So as people get more and more, as the corporation accumulates its reputation for answering things honestly,

1678
02:34:02,742 --> 02:34:04,742
the sort of market cap of the corporation should go up.

1679
02:34:05,742 --> 02:34:09,742
So you gain money that way.

1680
02:34:10,742 --> 02:34:11,742
So instead of exit scamming, you just sell.

1681
02:34:11,742 --> 02:34:14,742
It's like if you grow a company to a certain size and then you sell.

1682
02:34:15,742 --> 02:34:16,742
So that's one facet of it.

1683
02:34:17,742 --> 02:34:23,742
But another facet of it is that I do a statistical trick called singular value decomposition.

1684
02:34:24,742 --> 02:34:32,742
And what happens with that is if everyone answers everything exactly the same,

1685
02:34:33,742 --> 02:34:37,742
then it doesn't trigger because there's total unanimity.

1686
02:34:37,742 --> 02:34:43,742
But if there's any disagreement at all, it calculates the multivariate average of what happened.

1687
02:34:44,742 --> 02:34:47,742
And then whoever deviated the most is slashed.

1688
02:34:48,742 --> 02:34:51,742
They lose like 20% of their holdings in the corporation.

1689
02:34:52,742 --> 02:35:00,742
And everyone else, the closer they were, the more deviant they were, the more they get punished up to that 20% maximum.

1690
02:35:01,742 --> 02:35:05,742
And their shares are redistributed to the other shareholders.

1691
02:35:05,742 --> 02:35:16,742
So if you are reporting on the truth, the ideal thing for you would be for like 49% of the other people around you to give the wrong answer.

1692
02:35:17,742 --> 02:35:19,742
And this is supposed to make these people a little more independent.

1693
02:35:20,742 --> 02:35:25,742
Because now you can't trust the other people you're voting with.

1694
02:35:26,742 --> 02:35:32,742
Because their best case scenario is to trick you into getting off the average.

1695
02:35:32,742 --> 02:35:36,742
And if you get off the average, and it's no good to be slightly off the average.

1696
02:35:37,742 --> 02:35:43,742
Because if everyone else is perfectly on the average and you are off by just one, one answer is off just a little,

1697
02:35:44,742 --> 02:35:49,742
then you're the person who is off by the most and you lose the maximum amount.

1698
02:35:50,742 --> 02:35:55,742
So that's also how I try to keep them independent a little bit.

1699
02:35:56,742 --> 02:36:01,742
And it's also the way you aggregate many, many, each shareholder in the corporation, so to speak.

1700
02:36:02,742 --> 02:36:06,742
Each of them votes on all the questions.

1701
02:36:07,742 --> 02:36:15,742
So those are some of the tips and techniques that I use for my decentralized peer-to-peer Oracle.

1702
02:36:16,742 --> 02:36:18,742
So we don't have time to get into all of it.

1703
02:36:19,742 --> 02:36:28,742
But I gave a talk, if you go on BitcoinHiveMind.com, I gave a QCon talk in March 2017, I think, called the Oracle Problem.

1704
02:36:29,742 --> 02:36:31,742
And I gave a little talk about that.

1705
02:36:32,742 --> 02:36:40,742
So that would be a good talk to watch if you are interested in that.

1706
02:36:44,742 --> 02:36:50,742
Okay. Yeah, that's, in my mind, if I was designing such a system, it would be, okay.

1707
02:36:51,742 --> 02:36:57,742
We have these spiders set up, and they're going to spider these URLs for the results.

1708
02:36:57,742 --> 02:37:01,742
And then the users are just kind of voting on the accuracy of that result.

1709
02:37:02,742 --> 02:37:04,742
The thing is, actually, that doesn't work.

1710
02:37:05,742 --> 02:37:07,742
And I explained why early on in the QCon talk.

1711
02:37:08,742 --> 02:37:10,742
Because the blockchain has to synchronize.

1712
02:37:11,742 --> 02:37:14,742
Someone has to be able to download the blockchain a year from now.

1713
02:37:15,742 --> 02:37:21,742
And they have to get the exact same result as you, but they will be visiting the URL at a different time.

1714
02:37:22,742 --> 02:37:24,742
And they won't know what it said in the past.

1715
02:37:24,742 --> 02:37:25,742
And so that doesn't work.

1716
02:37:26,742 --> 02:37:27,742
I wish it did.

1717
02:37:28,742 --> 02:37:34,742
But it's similar to drivechain, where I shrink the problem down, and then I have a human being convey it over.

1718
02:37:35,742 --> 02:37:38,742
Because what you do is you say, there's these links, this URL.

1719
02:37:39,742 --> 02:37:40,742
You say, this is what I'm betting on.

1720
02:37:41,742 --> 02:37:46,742
What will the global average service temperature be as reported by this satellite on this date?

1721
02:37:47,742 --> 02:37:51,742
And the people then checking it in that quarter.

1722
02:37:51,742 --> 02:38:00,742
And what they want is, what you do is, you make it so that the task is very easy to do.

1723
02:38:01,742 --> 02:38:04,742
But a human has to still transcribe it over.

1724
02:38:05,742 --> 02:38:09,742
So that part is, I don't have time to explain it.

1725
02:38:10,742 --> 02:38:14,742
But what you could do is you would have a situation where software automates the whole thing.

1726
02:38:15,742 --> 02:38:18,742
But a human just glances at it at the very end.

1727
02:38:18,742 --> 02:38:21,742
But it doesn't really work to tie it to the URL.

1728
02:38:22,742 --> 02:38:26,742
It needs to have the incentive to work.

1729
02:38:27,742 --> 02:38:30,742
Because the URL is aspirational.

1730
02:38:31,742 --> 02:38:35,742
The URL could always, you know, you could get a 404 on a random day.

1731
02:38:36,742 --> 02:38:39,742
And is the 404, is that the right answer for everyone?

1732
02:38:40,742 --> 02:38:43,742
Or is it like, OK, I need to come back tomorrow.

1733
02:38:44,742 --> 02:38:45,742
So you need effort.

1734
02:38:45,742 --> 02:38:50,742
You need people to want it to get a true answer.

1735
02:38:54,742 --> 02:38:55,742
Anyway, nice seeing you again.

1736
02:38:56,742 --> 02:38:57,742
Yeah, thanks.

1737
02:38:58,742 --> 02:38:59,742
You too.

1738
02:38:59,742 --> 02:39:00,742
Yeah, sure.

1739
02:39:00,742 --> 02:39:01,742
That was my only question.

1740
02:39:03,742 --> 02:39:07,742
Pulse LN, do you have a question?

1741
02:39:16,742 --> 02:39:21,742
No question from Pulse LN who is, you're muted if you have a question.

1742
02:39:23,742 --> 02:39:25,742
Nope, just a heart.

1743
02:39:26,742 --> 02:39:31,742
Just a symbol of eternal, unconditional love for all.

1744
02:39:34,742 --> 02:39:35,742
OK, that's good.

1745
02:39:36,742 --> 02:39:37,742
I like that.

1746
02:39:37,742 --> 02:39:45,742
So, yes, come up if you have something to say.

1747
02:39:46,742 --> 02:39:49,742
Or you'll be hearing me talk about...

1748
02:39:50,901 --> 02:39:52,061
Peer-to-peer oracle.

1749
02:39:53,701 --> 02:39:55,901
I know you don't want to hear about that. It's really boring.

1750
02:39:57,661 --> 02:40:00,981
That's nice. The boring stuff is always great stuff.

1751
02:40:03,621 --> 02:40:04,901
Because it's educational.

1752
02:40:07,140 --> 02:40:11,981
Well, you know, like I really believe that this prediction market thing is really big.

1753
02:40:12,220 --> 02:40:14,901
Like, it's a big idea.

1754
02:40:14,981 --> 02:40:19,661
And it's another thing where it's very similar to Bitcoin, where Bitcoin is just like a bank

1755
02:40:19,701 --> 02:40:21,460
that's just adding and subtracting numbers.

1756
02:40:22,860 --> 02:40:28,061
But it is really important because it's voluntarily...

1757
02:40:28,540 --> 02:40:30,500
It's like banking. It helps people cooperate.

1758
02:40:30,540 --> 02:40:34,581
And it just turns the world from a bunch of people who would all probably kill each other

1759
02:40:35,781 --> 02:40:39,301
into a world where everyone can cooperate, like the Mildred Friedman pencil thing.

1760
02:40:39,581 --> 02:40:43,700
But this prediction market thing is also it's really, really big because it's a very simple

1761
02:40:43,700 --> 02:40:47,901
idea. It just says you can buy and sell shares in Apple.

1762
02:40:48,220 --> 02:40:54,500
Well, why can't you buy and sell shares in who will be elected or in what combinations

1763
02:40:54,500 --> 02:40:56,261
of events would happen together?

1764
02:40:56,780 --> 02:41:03,220
And this really makes everyone on the planet Earth as intelligent as the smartest

1765
02:41:03,220 --> 02:41:08,301
person on Earth, if not more, because they're all combined.

1766
02:41:08,460 --> 02:41:11,180
It combines everyone and aggregates everyone's knowledge.

1767
02:41:11,301 --> 02:41:13,061
And then brought for free.

1768
02:41:13,460 --> 02:41:17,621
This is a really cool part. It's for free just by looking up the prices and staring at

1769
02:41:17,621 --> 02:41:23,061
them with your eyes. It broadcasts this information to everyone so everyone around can

1770
02:41:23,061 --> 02:41:26,820
look. You can all go to electionbettingodds.com right now.

1771
02:41:27,981 --> 02:41:33,420
Trump has been the front runner in the Republican Party ever since the site for as long

1772
02:41:33,420 --> 02:41:38,741
as the site has been up and for as long as it has had numbers for 2024.

1773
02:41:39,140 --> 02:41:43,981
But if you if you just participate in the regular world, this is kind of has this nebulous

1774
02:41:43,981 --> 02:41:46,941
quality to it. Like you kind of think, well, maybe anyone could run.

1775
02:41:48,621 --> 02:41:52,901
Maybe anyone could be the Republican nominee, but not if you live in prediction market

1776
02:41:52,901 --> 02:41:57,061
world and prediction market world, you know, even though you don't know anything about

1777
02:41:57,061 --> 02:42:03,060
like, I don't I don't participate in in any kind of Republican National Committee or

1778
02:42:03,060 --> 02:42:08,461
anything like that. I'm a registered voter, but I don't really do anything.

1779
02:42:09,101 --> 02:42:14,420
So but if you watch the prediction markets, you know that they they plan it out like as

1780
02:42:14,420 --> 02:42:17,301
soon as the one election ends, they're already planning it out.

1781
02:42:17,301 --> 02:42:20,980
And there are some sometimes people burst onto the scene.

1782
02:42:21,260 --> 02:42:25,620
Sometimes people catch a bad break and they get kicked out.

1783
02:42:25,980 --> 02:42:29,780
But on the whole, it's a very carefully managed process who gets to run.

1784
02:42:30,980 --> 02:42:34,780
And it's also very carefully managed who is likely to win.

1785
02:42:36,260 --> 02:42:39,220
In particular, the incumbent has an edge, so.

1786
02:42:39,941 --> 02:42:45,101
So it's very important that this is just one example among many of something where

1787
02:42:45,101 --> 02:42:51,181
what would normally be utterly mystifying to you, you can know, you can be more or less

1788
02:42:51,181 --> 02:42:59,101
certain that your knowledge on a given question matches what the most knowledgeable

1789
02:42:59,101 --> 02:43:03,500
people in the world believe, because, of course, if any of these prices are wrong in any

1790
02:43:03,620 --> 02:43:09,220
sense, some of them will be too low and then you can buy those.

1791
02:43:09,220 --> 02:43:15,941
And then if you're right about something being a good buy at seven cents or so.

1792
02:43:16,980 --> 02:43:20,620
You buy enough of things at seven cents, if you think if you have a portfolio of like

1793
02:43:20,620 --> 02:43:24,181
five thousand things, there's five thousand prediction markets, let's say there's a

1794
02:43:24,181 --> 02:43:30,260
million prediction markets in the world and you five thousand things that are there

1795
02:43:30,260 --> 02:43:34,860
should be 10 cents, but they're really they're really trading for seven cents.

1796
02:43:36,301 --> 02:43:39,340
You buy all these things and then large, large numbers is you're guaranteed to be

1797
02:43:39,340 --> 02:43:47,101
making a lot of money on that, because if you're really right, that 10 percent of

1798
02:43:47,101 --> 02:43:48,661
these things should be happening.

1799
02:43:48,860 --> 02:43:52,060
You buy five thousand, around five hundred will happen.

1800
02:43:52,661 --> 02:43:59,541
But you bought. For, you know, you bought for seven cents, something that had an

1801
02:43:59,541 --> 02:44:02,780
expected value of 10 cents, so you immediately.

1802
02:44:04,541 --> 02:44:09,181
Got a huge return there, so the prediction market thing is pretty big because it lets

1803
02:44:09,181 --> 02:44:13,741
you predict the future, it lets you establish the relationship between things that are

1804
02:44:13,741 --> 02:44:19,341
happening in the future, and that allows you to decide like, OK, you don't just say

1805
02:44:19,341 --> 02:44:21,221
who who is likely to win the election.

1806
02:44:21,221 --> 02:44:26,820
You say if the Republican Party won, if or if the Democratic Party won or if whatever

1807
02:44:26,820 --> 02:44:32,461
party wins, if the party wins, what will the unemployment rate be or what what other

1808
02:44:32,461 --> 02:44:37,540
things will happen? For example, Barack Obama ran on closing Guantanamo Bay.

1809
02:44:38,621 --> 02:44:46,660
He won the election and he also won a supermajority in the Senate by narrowly 60

1810
02:44:46,660 --> 02:44:51,741
people only. But he has supermajority in the Senate and he won the House and he had

1811
02:44:51,741 --> 02:44:57,860
the Supreme Court. And yet Guantanamo Bay stayed open the whole time he was there.

1812
02:45:00,021 --> 02:45:04,181
And he couldn't even get his Obamacare, this is part of the deficiency of the US

1813
02:45:04,181 --> 02:45:10,140
system, but because you really need you need a bigger majority than 60.

1814
02:45:11,501 --> 02:45:15,820
You need a big supermajority, really, because the founding fathers, they were very

1815
02:45:15,820 --> 02:45:19,980
smart and they knew that they mostly designed it to make it difficult for the

1816
02:45:19,980 --> 02:45:26,021
politicians to get anything done, which was pretty smart in many ways.

1817
02:45:27,140 --> 02:45:33,501
But anyway, my point is, if we had prediction markets, the Guantanamo Bay, it

1818
02:45:33,501 --> 02:45:41,100
doesn't matter how likely Obama was to win versus McCain or Romney, the contract

1819
02:45:41,540 --> 02:45:47,061
that would pay a dollar if Guantanamo Bay closed, the Guantanamo Bay payoff, you

1820
02:45:47,061 --> 02:45:51,260
know, Guantanamo Bay coin or whatever you want to call it, the thing that the

1821
02:45:51,260 --> 02:45:56,820
prediction market would would buy from you for a dollar or for one bitcoin, it

1822
02:45:56,820 --> 02:45:59,221
would be trading at zero because everyone knew that it wouldn't happen.

1823
02:46:01,341 --> 02:46:03,940
But not me, I kind of thought, oh, it probably would happen.

1824
02:46:04,021 --> 02:46:05,540
That's just one example among many.

1825
02:46:06,461 --> 02:46:09,501
But of course, yes, it makes it impossible to lie.

1826
02:46:09,501 --> 02:46:15,021
It makes it impossible for politicians and CEOs to misrepresent themselves to these

1827
02:46:15,021 --> 02:46:20,540
people who we have a situation where the CEO knows everything that's happening

1828
02:46:20,540 --> 02:46:23,181
every day, the president knows everything that's happening every day.

1829
02:46:24,581 --> 02:46:26,341
They have enormous expertise.

1830
02:46:26,540 --> 02:46:30,980
So how can a layperson ever hold these people accountable?

1831
02:46:32,781 --> 02:46:35,501
But the answer is that you don't, you have you just have a prediction market.

1832
02:46:35,501 --> 02:46:38,621
And you say, if we replace the CEO with this guy, what would happen to the share

1833
02:46:38,621 --> 02:46:43,021
price? And then it's other experts are betting on that.

1834
02:46:43,061 --> 02:46:48,260
It may even be the CEOs themselves, the person next in line, they might know, they

1835
02:46:48,260 --> 02:46:52,540
might say, I know if I was a CEO, I could move the stock price up.

1836
02:46:53,540 --> 02:46:57,700
They mortgage their house, they bet everything on this, they move the market

1837
02:46:57,700 --> 02:47:01,501
enough, and now they're installed the CEO and now they are going to lose everything

1838
02:47:01,501 --> 02:47:04,621
unless they actually move the share price up.

1839
02:47:06,181 --> 02:47:08,341
Or the market ignores their advice.

1840
02:47:09,341 --> 02:47:13,501
They are not made the CEO, and then they make a ton of money from the prediction

1841
02:47:13,501 --> 02:47:17,100
market when the share price fails to increase.

1842
02:47:18,100 --> 02:47:23,061
So it's a pretty important idea because it's really about like who watches the

1843
02:47:23,061 --> 02:47:29,940
watchmen and kind of like how does knowledge diffuse through society, which is

1844
02:47:29,940 --> 02:47:34,420
key because we have this Internet thing and we have we all speak English mostly and

1845
02:47:34,420 --> 02:47:37,980
we have fiber optic cable everywhere.

1846
02:47:38,501 --> 02:47:43,181
But still, we struggle to agree on things.

1847
02:47:44,301 --> 02:47:48,660
But that's what a prediction market would do, it would make everyone that's why I

1848
02:47:48,660 --> 02:47:50,221
renamed it to Bitcoin Hivemind.

1849
02:47:51,700 --> 02:47:54,980
So I think it's a pretty great idea, and this is a sidechain that we would have if

1850
02:47:54,980 --> 02:47:57,341
we activated BIP300, we would just have this tomorrow.

1851
02:47:58,820 --> 02:48:03,221
Although not quite tomorrow, because I'm a little bit of a perfectionist and I have a

1852
02:48:03,221 --> 02:48:09,781
great person collaborating with me who is rewriting it in Rust, so.

1853
02:48:12,581 --> 02:48:18,061
The perfectionism will screw it up, but we don't seem to be getting BIP300 within the

1854
02:48:18,061 --> 02:48:20,140
next month or two anyway, so.

1855
02:48:22,181 --> 02:48:25,901
So that's kind of the lay of the land with respect to that, but please visit my other

1856
02:48:25,901 --> 02:48:32,060
site, the BitcoinHivemind.com, and this is an issue that I feel strongly about.

1857
02:48:32,060 --> 02:48:35,021
This is my answer to like the Peter Thiel question where they say, what's something

1858
02:48:35,021 --> 02:48:39,740
that you believe that no one else, no one else agrees with you or no one else knows?

1859
02:48:39,940 --> 02:48:42,861
You know, what's something that everyone else should know, but they don't?

1860
02:48:44,661 --> 02:48:48,260
Mine is that our obscure, obscure U.S.

1861
02:48:48,260 --> 02:48:56,500
law and our weird cultural convention against gambling is like basically the worst

1862
02:48:57,500 --> 02:49:03,300
decision in all of human history and is responsible for enormous wide scale misery,

1863
02:49:03,300 --> 02:49:05,581
poverty, death, et cetera.

1864
02:49:07,461 --> 02:49:13,620
And just frustration and confusion and just miserableness overall is that if we had only

1865
02:49:13,620 --> 02:49:20,781
in the United States legalized gambling like they do in the UK and other places, we would

1866
02:49:21,021 --> 02:49:28,180
have achieved perfect nirvana and utopia, but we have not.

1867
02:49:28,180 --> 02:49:34,421
And so that's just a weird view that I have.

1868
02:49:35,421 --> 02:49:41,180
But yeah, check out my other site, BitcoinHivemind.com for information about that.

1869
02:49:42,101 --> 02:49:53,300
One thing I'm curious about, like when I'm gambling, I'll put like $5 on red and $3 on

1870
02:49:53,300 --> 02:50:00,341
black. Where I'm like narrowing my loss, will Hivemind have that?

1871
02:50:01,661 --> 02:50:04,140
Yeah, but you know, that's not really a reasonable thing to do.

1872
02:50:05,740 --> 02:50:08,461
Why not just put two on red?

1873
02:50:09,461 --> 02:50:12,781
I mean, you're kind of levering, you're de-levering.

1874
02:50:12,781 --> 02:50:16,101
Yeah, but you know, but yeah, it actually does do that.

1875
02:50:16,101 --> 02:50:20,620
And I actually have a big Excel spreadsheet where I give in details about that.

1876
02:50:20,940 --> 02:50:26,581
Did you know that if you buy an underlying, if you buy like a share of Apple, but you

1877
02:50:26,581 --> 02:50:32,500
partially finance that with borrowing, it's mathematically equivalent to buying a call

1878
02:50:32,500 --> 02:50:37,221
option. So a call option is just the underlying plus leverage.

1879
02:50:37,500 --> 02:50:39,500
So what you're doing there is you're de-leveraging.

1880
02:50:39,500 --> 02:50:45,700
But you could do that if you just added like cash to your portfolio or something.

1881
02:50:45,700 --> 02:50:48,781
But yeah, you can do that. You can buy, for example, you can have a prediction market

1882
02:50:48,781 --> 02:50:54,341
that says, will the Republican Party win the presidential election?

1883
02:50:54,341 --> 02:50:57,700
Yes or no? And then you can bet on yes and no.

1884
02:50:58,221 --> 02:51:01,861
But I have to tell you what it will do, what the software will do in that case is for

1885
02:51:01,861 --> 02:51:05,901
every time you buy, if you try to buy three shares of yes and two shares of no.

1886
02:51:06,901 --> 02:51:09,581
And the price, let's say the price of yes, let's say it's 50-50.

1887
02:51:11,180 --> 02:51:16,101
The market is 50-50 and you want to buy three shares of yes, three shares, two shares of

1888
02:51:16,101 --> 02:51:19,021
no. The market will just charge you two.

1889
02:51:20,901 --> 02:51:23,341
Let's just say it's Bitcoin, just to not think about it.

1890
02:51:23,661 --> 02:51:30,740
So let's say the markets are 50-50, 0.5 Bitcoin for yes, 0.5 Bitcoin for each share of

1891
02:51:30,781 --> 02:51:33,180
no, 0.5 shares for each.

1892
02:51:33,861 --> 02:51:38,820
It will just charge you two Bitcoin upfront and then it'll give you a full set.

1893
02:51:40,581 --> 02:51:44,781
So it'll give you one yes, one no, and it'll charge you one dollar, one Bitcoin, and

1894
02:51:44,781 --> 02:51:50,500
it'll give you one another one, one yes, one no, it'll charge you one Bitcoin and then

1895
02:51:50,500 --> 02:51:55,981
it will charge you 50 cents, sort of, depends on the liquidity of this market, which is

1896
02:51:55,981 --> 02:51:59,620
a parameter set by whoever created it.

1897
02:52:00,861 --> 02:52:06,300
Which we don't really have that much time to go into, probably, but it will then.

1898
02:52:09,341 --> 02:52:14,500
So you see what I mean, like the first two are kind of like you're buying something

1899
02:52:14,500 --> 02:52:22,140
where either the yes will pay off for one Bitcoin and the no will be zero or the no

1900
02:52:22,140 --> 02:52:24,661
will pay off for one Bitcoin and the yes will be zero.

1901
02:52:25,541 --> 02:52:29,500
But you're buying each of those for one Bitcoin, so like nothing is happening.

1902
02:52:31,740 --> 02:52:37,740
But yeah, you know that you are guaranteed to win, but you're also guaranteed to lose.

1903
02:52:37,740 --> 02:52:40,981
So because one of those two will be worth nothing.

1904
02:52:40,981 --> 02:52:48,461
So so you kind of are just holding a Bitcoin, but sure, you could do it.

1905
02:53:00,740 --> 02:53:07,581
Cool, great.

1906
02:53:09,940 --> 02:53:14,940
Prediction markets, I think it's I think it's another thing that people will not

1907
02:53:14,940 --> 02:53:17,620
really understand until they can use it.

1908
02:53:18,221 --> 02:53:23,060
They need to use it, which is why I really feel like it is a good application of

1909
02:53:23,861 --> 02:53:29,981
actually having a blockchain, because the intraday was closed down by the government

1910
02:53:29,981 --> 02:53:31,021
and all kinds of other stuff.

1911
02:53:31,021 --> 02:53:34,861
We have these weird laws and we have bizarre cultural conventions.

1912
02:53:36,221 --> 02:53:39,861
Hacks, frictions and other things, and so if it was just this place.

1913
02:53:41,221 --> 02:53:47,740
Well, you could just do it unmolested and people could just make money, then there

1914
02:53:47,740 --> 02:53:50,380
would be like a whole little industry would be like mining where there'd be this

1915
02:53:50,380 --> 02:53:54,781
whole little industry and the industry would be about finding the truth, making

1916
02:53:54,781 --> 02:53:57,060
money by making the good bets.

1917
02:53:57,740 --> 02:54:02,101
And it would be subsidized by people who wanted to know the truth.

1918
02:54:02,101 --> 02:54:05,060
And this is a long conversation, but.

1919
02:54:07,221 --> 02:54:12,861
I have a talk about this that I was never able to give because it ruined it.

1920
02:54:13,820 --> 02:54:18,060
And so I never gave this talk, but it's kind of a complicated topic, but.

1921
02:54:19,820 --> 02:54:23,820
But basically, my view is that this is a type of thing that people have to

1922
02:54:23,820 --> 02:54:26,260
experience first and then they'll get it.

1923
02:54:27,661 --> 02:54:30,940
And then after they get it, they'll be like, how did we ever live without this?

1924
02:54:30,940 --> 02:54:32,300
Which is kind of like.

1925
02:54:34,581 --> 02:54:39,341
You know, many things we do like accounting, you know, like.

1926
02:54:41,060 --> 02:54:42,500
Generally accepted accounting.

1927
02:54:44,581 --> 02:54:45,820
Like the idea that.

1928
02:54:47,380 --> 02:54:51,221
If you if everyone did their accounting differently and then one person said, OK,

1929
02:54:51,221 --> 02:54:53,341
listen, this is how we should do things, we need to.

1930
02:54:54,341 --> 02:54:55,781
We need to have a standardized.

1931
02:54:57,300 --> 02:55:01,221
Standardized accounting, we have the third party auditors come in, but that

1932
02:55:01,221 --> 02:55:04,700
would make it really look like you didn't trust your own organization.

1933
02:55:05,500 --> 02:55:06,740
So that would look kind of weird.

1934
02:55:08,221 --> 02:55:13,700
But the tables are turned if you fast forward to a world where everyone does

1935
02:55:13,700 --> 02:55:18,740
this, everyone does the accounting in a standardized way, and then you say, you

1936
02:55:18,740 --> 02:55:21,300
know, and I'm just going to invent my own accounting and I don't want any third

1937
02:55:21,461 --> 02:55:22,661
party auditors coming in.

1938
02:55:24,180 --> 02:55:26,781
Now, you see that that that's no good.

1939
02:55:27,861 --> 02:55:32,541
And so that I think that'll be a little bit how this is or like, you know, who

1940
02:55:32,541 --> 02:55:37,541
gives Brian Kaplan gives this example about like if you went back hundreds of

1941
02:55:37,541 --> 02:55:42,021
years and there was there was a monarchy and you said, you know, we should have a

1942
02:55:42,021 --> 02:55:43,661
democracy and people should vote.

1943
02:55:45,060 --> 02:55:46,221
Everyone would be like, what?

1944
02:55:46,341 --> 02:55:54,021
But after, after some of the kinks are sort of worked out, it seems more bizarre

1945
02:55:54,021 --> 02:55:58,820
for people to say, okay, you know what, we're all all of us are going to agree.

1946
02:55:59,461 --> 02:56:02,981
Everyone in this country is going to agree on one person who will be in

1947
02:56:02,981 --> 02:56:06,781
charge, and when that person dies, their children will take over.

1948
02:56:08,300 --> 02:56:13,700
Seems like that's, that doesn't really solve the problem of disagreement very

1949
02:56:13,820 --> 02:56:20,700
well, because people are going to disagree over that person is a lot and then they

1950
02:56:20,700 --> 02:56:26,541
are, it's, you're just going to be really, really hoping that the children of that

1951
02:56:26,541 --> 02:56:29,581
person turn out to be talented.

1952
02:56:43,700 --> 02:56:47,461
Well, anyway, I think, you know, this is the third hour, so maybe we should start

1953
02:56:47,461 --> 02:56:48,820
winding it down in case.

1954
02:56:48,861 --> 02:56:53,861
So if you have any, any questions or comments that you just really would really

1955
02:56:55,981 --> 02:57:06,180
feel really terrible if you weren't able to make, now is also a great time to come

1956
02:57:06,501 --> 02:57:09,940
up to the stage and ask your question.

1957
02:57:22,741 --> 02:57:24,300
Hey, Paul, you there?

1958
02:57:26,820 --> 02:57:27,101
Yeah.

1959
02:57:33,721 --> 02:57:35,981
Hey Paul, you there?

1960
02:57:37,300 --> 02:57:37,621
Yes.

1961
02:57:37,621 --> 02:57:37,981
Hello.

1962
02:57:38,461 --> 02:57:42,501
Hey, uh, I'm all at the whole, you know, like coins of shit coin comment slide,

1963
02:57:43,981 --> 02:57:46,101
but, uh, no, do you do these regularly?

1964
02:57:46,101 --> 02:57:51,540
Cause I, I, we talked about this in my spaces a couple of weeks ago and I

1965
02:57:51,540 --> 02:57:55,141
think I have a general understanding from the beginning, you know, if

1966
02:57:55,141 --> 02:57:56,461
you're winding things down,

1967
02:57:58,741 --> 02:57:59,741
yeah, we do it every Friday.

1968
02:58:00,501 --> 02:58:03,180
And you know, I think like coin, whatever, like I don't have a problem

1969
02:58:03,180 --> 02:58:05,660
with, um, again, like I'm not opposed to it at all.

1970
02:58:06,381 --> 02:58:07,221
It's just like, I'm not set.

1971
02:58:07,221 --> 02:58:10,700
And I also don't know like whatever the conventions are for

1972
02:58:10,700 --> 02:58:11,900
adding things to Litecoin.

1973
02:58:12,741 --> 02:58:16,221
So I don't even process, you know, as Bitcoin obviously.

1974
02:58:16,221 --> 02:58:16,501
Right.

1975
02:58:17,940 --> 02:58:18,741
It's that bad, huh?

1976
02:58:19,420 --> 02:58:23,820
Well, I mean, you know, it's, it's funny because one of the things about,

1977
02:58:24,741 --> 02:58:28,020
you know, Charlie and the Litecoin foundation, they don't have any

1978
02:58:28,381 --> 02:58:33,900
technical, uh, control undo control, but they certainly have a lot of

1979
02:58:34,621 --> 02:58:39,300
sway and, uh, he holds a lot of, he carries a lot of weight, right?

1980
02:58:39,940 --> 02:58:45,261
So sometimes it does make things easier when you have somebody who's kind of

1981
02:58:45,261 --> 02:58:50,780
respected as the guy who's trying to do his best for the longterm.

1982
02:58:51,060 --> 02:58:54,180
Like, I don't think anybody questions Charlie's motives about Litecoin.

1983
02:58:55,020 --> 02:59:00,261
So, um, that sometimes makes it easier, you know, in our conversations and kind

1984
02:59:00,261 --> 02:59:04,861
of within the community, cause I do a spaces every week, I initially was kind

1985
02:59:04,861 --> 02:59:12,660
of like, um, you know, the protocols are really designed to be resistant to, if

1986
02:59:12,660 --> 02:59:14,540
people don't want to use it, they don't have to use it.

1987
02:59:14,581 --> 02:59:14,940
Right.

1988
02:59:15,540 --> 02:59:20,660
That's the whole point of having the ability to fork or run your own

1989
02:59:20,660 --> 02:59:21,981
node and all that type of stuff.

1990
02:59:22,581 --> 02:59:27,461
So, um, I, at first was kind of like, yeah, I don't see what the harm is.

1991
02:59:28,180 --> 02:59:32,020
Um, I think the more I think about it, it does, it's very confusing from the

1992
02:59:32,020 --> 02:59:37,060
outside, you know, some of the, the timeframes of having to get X amount of

1993
02:59:37,060 --> 02:59:41,501
approvals for, was it three months to get your money from the sidechain

1994
02:59:41,501 --> 02:59:43,780
back to the, to the main chain.

1995
02:59:43,780 --> 02:59:48,940
And I know there's reasons for that, but I think, uh, for non-technical

1996
02:59:48,940 --> 02:59:50,660
people, it just sounds very.

1997
02:59:51,450 --> 02:59:58,570
It just sounds very complicated, I guess. Right. Um, and so I think I've always felt like Bitcoin

1998
02:59:58,570 --> 03:00:04,410
is the one that's that base layer and you want it to be as, uh, simple as possible.

1999
03:00:05,210 --> 03:00:11,290
And I'm a multi-coiner obviously. Right. So what's the harm in just using other chains

2000
03:00:12,410 --> 03:00:17,610
and keeping Bitcoin as pristine as possible. Um, and I kind of feel the same way about Litecoin.

2001
03:00:17,610 --> 03:00:22,730
I think, I think you have coins. Yeah, but you'd like that. This is the funny thing is that it's

2002
03:00:22,730 --> 03:00:29,049
kind of like, I think, I think that, I think that could be a good direction, but that's just not

2003
03:00:29,049 --> 03:00:36,729
what I thought. Um, so like, for example, if we're going to keep all the coins on changing and

2004
03:00:36,729 --> 03:00:44,650
pristine, then on what basis do people in Bitcoin, on what basis do they disparage other chains?

2005
03:00:44,650 --> 03:00:49,370
You know what I mean? Because, you know, like why can, why can Giacomo say everything that's

2006
03:00:49,370 --> 03:00:54,650
not Bitcoin is a scam. If we're going to say that everything's going to be frozen in time,

2007
03:00:54,650 --> 03:01:01,610
you know, it's going to be a picture, a snapshot. Uh, whereas for me, I just see no reason why

2008
03:01:01,610 --> 03:01:06,250
Bitcoin can't. So to me, it is like the, the cell phone thing where it's like 20 years later and all

2009
03:01:06,250 --> 03:01:11,290
these devices fit in your pocket or whatever, where they have like the digital camera, the boom box,

2010
03:01:11,689 --> 03:01:20,170
the video camera, the, like the tape recorder, the radio, and these are all now in one device.

2011
03:01:20,969 --> 03:01:27,130
So I think, um, but yeah, I think a lot of people do feel that way. And I think a lot of the critics

2012
03:01:27,130 --> 03:01:32,089
of BIP300 are actually people who just own altcoins. I'm not saying that's you, but I'm

2013
03:01:32,089 --> 03:01:39,290
saying that I think that is like, people think, oh no, like, uh, they don't, there's a lot of

2014
03:01:39,290 --> 03:01:44,009
vested interests all around. Right. So yeah, it's definitely very interesting.

2015
03:01:44,009 --> 03:01:49,290
Yeah. I mean, you know, if you had like, um, you know, the weird position where Litecoin is,

2016
03:01:49,290 --> 03:01:54,490
is that anything Bitcoin does like Taproot or Lightning or SegWit, you know, they're,

2017
03:01:54,490 --> 03:02:00,249
they're fairly interoperable. So it's like, it's not hard to take code from one and move it to the

2018
03:02:00,249 --> 03:02:06,090
other. And, uh, so yeah, we're a little bit, you could call us the test net or when Taproot was on

2019
03:02:06,090 --> 03:02:13,049
Bitcoin, that was Litecoin's test net technically. Right. So it's like, um, I feel like if it's

2020
03:02:13,049 --> 03:02:16,570
something that's good for Bitcoin, then it's maybe will ultimately be good for Litecoin.

2021
03:02:17,529 --> 03:02:22,169
Um, I don't know. I mean, it just feels very convoluted. And I also, and I'm not saying

2022
03:02:22,169 --> 03:02:27,210
that's your, that it is, I'm just saying from the outside, just the tech, the, the

2023
03:02:27,850 --> 03:02:34,249
web point of view, it sounds like a lot of running around to copy things that

2024
03:02:35,689 --> 03:02:38,409
I don't even know that we're sure there's a lot of value in yet.

2025
03:02:39,370 --> 03:02:43,049
You know, some of the sites, like I get, I think the fungibility thing is huge.

2026
03:02:43,930 --> 03:02:47,769
Privacy is something that, um, definitely needs to be addressed.

2027
03:02:49,370 --> 03:02:52,650
But as far as like, I don't, I mean, I don't know some of the smart contract stuff.

2028
03:02:53,609 --> 03:02:58,570
I don't know what we're seeing yet. Right. How much value has really accrued to the

2029
03:02:59,769 --> 03:03:04,650
coin itself in order to operate a smart contract?

2030
03:03:06,249 --> 03:03:11,850
Yeah, I agree. I personally am not interested in Ethereum really at all, but it was important

2031
03:03:11,850 --> 03:03:20,249
to me that we clone it. And one reason is because to me, this whole, if you go to cryptofees.info

2032
03:03:20,329 --> 03:03:26,409
and you just see that, and you could see it online, I've tweeted this graph.

2033
03:03:27,130 --> 03:03:28,169
Yeah, I know what you're talking about.

2034
03:03:29,210 --> 03:03:32,249
The fees paid and it went and went from like one, one thousandth

2035
03:03:34,329 --> 03:03:41,850
Ethereum being far much one thousandth Bitcoin's fees on a daily fees to being like 100 times

2036
03:03:41,850 --> 03:03:47,450
higher on like a logarithmic scale. And to me that just really looks like they have real

2037
03:03:47,450 --> 03:03:51,769
paying customers. And so I just, and they're the number two coin. So I just thought we'll clone it

2038
03:03:51,769 --> 03:03:56,730
and we'll just show everyone that no one is safe from being cloned. Right. But yeah, I agree with

2039
03:03:56,730 --> 03:04:01,609
you that I personally don't really, I don't really see the appeal, but I think it's also the right

2040
03:04:01,609 --> 03:04:06,650
thing is to, it's not the case that the customer is always right. Right. You know, but, but in

2041
03:04:06,650 --> 03:04:13,529
general, we shouldn't take an attitude. Uh, if these people want to, you know what I mean? Like

2042
03:04:13,529 --> 03:04:19,050
pushing for adoption is hard enough. And if you have people who want to adopt a certain thing,

2043
03:04:19,050 --> 03:04:25,290
and then you're going to just say, well, you know, get lost because I personally don't understand it.

2044
03:04:25,290 --> 03:04:30,249
I mean, how many things that, that we personally experienced in our lives and we thought, you know,

2045
03:04:30,249 --> 03:04:34,409
and I probably, I don't think I really like that, or I don't know why anyone would like that.

2046
03:04:34,409 --> 03:04:37,050
And then later on in your life, you decide, you know what, I really like this.

2047
03:04:37,770 --> 03:04:40,809
Well, yeah, I mean, trust me, you know, being somebody who's on the, you know,

2048
03:04:40,809 --> 03:04:45,689
we're in the butt end of the, the maxi hate sometimes. Right. It's always been funny to me.

2049
03:04:45,689 --> 03:04:50,890
Like, it's the idea of like, well, I go to McDonald's and I like McDonald's, so there

2050
03:04:50,890 --> 03:04:56,649
should be no other restaurants in town. Right. Just like the craziest concept in the world to

2051
03:04:56,649 --> 03:05:02,969
each their own. Yeah. Yeah. And of course the one problem is if you say stuff like that,

2052
03:05:04,730 --> 03:05:10,010
McDonald's is all you need, you know, Bitcoin, Bitcoin Core, what they really mean is like

2053
03:05:10,010 --> 03:05:14,330
Bitcoin Core released in, you know, Bitcoin Core version 23 or something.

2054
03:05:14,330 --> 03:05:18,330
Bitcoin Core of a certain year is all you need and all you will ever need.

2055
03:05:20,649 --> 03:05:26,089
They're saying something like we, I am omniscient and I know everything that has been invented in

2056
03:05:26,089 --> 03:05:31,689
the whole crypto space and everything that will be invented. Right. And it's kind of like,

2057
03:05:31,689 --> 03:05:36,489
no, you don't like it. That's not true. You know, of course they don't. I mean,

2058
03:05:36,489 --> 03:05:40,409
it was true in the past. I think it's like, Hey, the biggest problem to solve is this,

2059
03:05:41,130 --> 03:05:48,809
the fiat money issue. Right. And just by purely even offering a competitive alternative to fiat

2060
03:05:48,809 --> 03:05:58,809
currencies is a huge leap forward. And is that enough at that point to say we've leveled by at

2061
03:05:58,809 --> 03:06:03,929
least invalidating some fiat currencies and many of them eventually probably all of them.

2062
03:06:04,570 --> 03:06:12,089
And is that enough? And are we getting a little greedy too fast, too soon to not let that play

2063
03:06:12,089 --> 03:06:17,529
out? But I also understood, but that's where I go, well, if your proposals are ultimately fairly

2064
03:06:17,529 --> 03:06:26,089
harmless, then yeah. Who cares? Right. Is it again, if it's horrible, everyone just,

2065
03:06:27,130 --> 03:06:30,969
can't you just soft fork and remove it? Right. Everybody could just go back to the old version.

2066
03:06:31,610 --> 03:06:36,489
Yes, exactly. So I tell you that I, I actually completely agree with you mostly. I mean,

2067
03:06:36,489 --> 03:06:40,649
I hope that these people are right. The people who say Bitcoin success is inevitable and that

2068
03:06:40,649 --> 03:06:46,170
it will inevitably reach, you know, a hundred trillion dollar market cap. Like, you know,

2069
03:06:46,170 --> 03:06:48,570
that would be great. I hope those people are right. You know, good for them.

2070
03:06:49,369 --> 03:06:54,409
And I'm just not willing to bet everything on that because I'll tell you why. But first,

2071
03:06:55,369 --> 03:07:02,570
let me just reiterate that it's kind of like you, like every fiat currency is shooting itself in

2072
03:07:02,570 --> 03:07:08,170
the head, right? You know, like the, we have the unsustainable us fiscal situation that no one is

2073
03:07:08,170 --> 03:07:12,570
going to do anything about. The precedent has long been set that we will just monetize,

2074
03:07:14,249 --> 03:07:19,770
which we did recently with COVID. And we did it before with great financial crisis. And we did it

2075
03:07:20,010 --> 03:07:24,489
with COVID. And we did it before with great financial crisis. And we did it before with

2076
03:07:25,610 --> 03:07:28,809
middle Eastern wars. And we, we, every single time we do it,

2077
03:07:30,409 --> 03:07:35,050
and it just grows bigger and bigger in absolute terms. And as a percentage of GDP and everything's

2078
03:07:35,689 --> 03:07:42,649
so, and no one cares, it used to be a debate topic. The Republican debates used to get a

2079
03:07:42,649 --> 03:07:47,610
question. I haven't watched the recent ones. Maybe I'll do that later today. I used to do

2080
03:07:47,610 --> 03:07:52,010
that for fun. So maybe I'll watch them and I'll see, I'll play a little game with myself.

2081
03:07:52,649 --> 03:07:59,369
Do they ask the Republican candidates about like balancing the budget or the long run

2082
03:07:59,369 --> 03:08:05,929
fiscal health of the country? And they used to always do it, but now they almost never do it.

2083
03:08:05,929 --> 03:08:09,610
And so my bet that I'm going to make with myself is that they don't even mention it,

2084
03:08:10,170 --> 03:08:15,369
but maybe they do. I could be completely wrong. But the point is, you know, the political will

2085
03:08:15,369 --> 03:08:19,770
to do anything about that is like completely evaporated. And so then it's like, you know,

2086
03:08:19,770 --> 03:08:25,369
the Euro also sucks. China's in a demographic collapse and they lie. All their numbers are

2087
03:08:25,369 --> 03:08:32,489
lies. No offense to them. We love the Chinese work ethic, you know, China's great. And whatever,

2088
03:08:32,489 --> 03:08:39,770
you know, rags to riches story. I love that they have so many trains and things. And I, you know,

2089
03:08:40,570 --> 03:08:47,289
I cheer China on, but you know, whenever I go to China, no one wants, no one wants Chinese

2090
03:08:47,289 --> 03:08:56,010
currency. They all want USDT is my recent experience. So no one wants, no one wants

2091
03:08:56,010 --> 03:09:02,410
Chinese cash. There are, you know, like they all want one out Japan demographic collapse.

2092
03:09:04,650 --> 03:09:08,809
You're like, so like every fiat currency, like, what is it going to be Brazil? No,

2093
03:09:08,809 --> 03:09:16,970
the Russian ruble negative, infinite. No. So in the short term, it almost seems like

2094
03:09:17,849 --> 03:09:24,330
the inflation of the U S dollar is really being offset by adoption by more people,

2095
03:09:24,330 --> 03:09:28,010
you know, because all the other currencies are growing.

2096
03:09:29,929 --> 03:09:34,090
The older I get now you're absolutely right. The older I get, the more I think I used to

2097
03:09:34,090 --> 03:09:37,450
think, what are these people doing? But now when I get older, I think,

2098
03:09:37,450 --> 03:09:42,809
are they geniuses? Because do they know like exactly how far they can push the envelope and

2099
03:09:42,809 --> 03:09:50,410
just extract $7 trillion out of thin air? And like, there's no riot. There's no nothing like

2100
03:09:50,410 --> 03:09:55,530
people complain about inflation, but, but yeah. And then the dollar people love that people love

2101
03:09:55,530 --> 03:10:00,249
the product. That's the other weird thing. You have a, you have this cadre of libertarians in

2102
03:10:00,249 --> 03:10:06,809
the United States who hate inflation and they buy things like gold, real estate, Bitcoin.

2103
03:10:07,770 --> 03:10:12,970
We profit off of it all because if you, once you're aware of it, you just opt out to,

2104
03:10:12,970 --> 03:10:16,330
to a large extent, you opt out. You just say, I'm not holding any cash.

2105
03:10:16,330 --> 03:10:21,609
I'm investing in inflation things. You have to participate in a speculative environment,

2106
03:10:21,609 --> 03:10:26,970
which is the critics point out that that's bad. And they're right. But, but we have this cadre

2107
03:10:26,970 --> 03:10:31,210
of libertarians. And then you have all these people all around the world and they just,

2108
03:10:31,210 --> 03:10:36,090
they'll do anything to get their hands on dollars. They just love the product. And it's because

2109
03:10:36,729 --> 03:10:41,289
everyone else is so bad, you know, Nigeria, Zimbabwe, whatever. They're so

2110
03:10:42,010 --> 03:10:49,770
just terrible at it. And even in Italy, you know, Greece, France, they just,

2111
03:10:50,729 --> 03:10:58,729
they just terrible. It's like the Euro is the worst designed thing. It's so dumb. No offense,

2112
03:10:58,729 --> 03:11:04,010
if you worked on the Euro. I mean, the Euro, the whole point of the Euro is the German people feel

2113
03:11:04,010 --> 03:11:10,330
guilty about World War II. And that's like the entire thing. And that's because German guilt is

2114
03:11:10,330 --> 03:11:16,809
one of the most powerful forces in the universe. So, but it's just like, I, you know, it doesn't

2115
03:11:17,049 --> 03:11:21,289
even make any sense. So it's like, they do the same thing, right? They started out with a certain

2116
03:11:21,289 --> 03:11:25,770
number of countries. And the only way to maintain relevance is you have to have new adoption to

2117
03:11:25,770 --> 03:11:30,729
offset your inflation. So they, more and more. So that's why they need other countries and new

2118
03:11:30,729 --> 03:11:35,289
populations and why they're not afraid of immigration, frankly, either, either us or

2119
03:11:35,289 --> 03:11:44,330
Europe. It's like, we need more users to offset all this money. Yes. Actually, everyone is having

2120
03:11:44,330 --> 03:11:52,410
a demographic collapse, so to speak, but it's the US is, is not as much. And the US, the pro

2121
03:11:52,410 --> 03:12:00,249
immigration of the US, it's immigration is such a great scam, for lack of a better word. These

2122
03:12:00,249 --> 03:12:08,090
other countries, they raise and educate people. And then of those is a big sort, you know, is a

2123
03:12:08,090 --> 03:12:14,330
big sorting machine, the most intelligent, the most hardworking, and the ones who are the most

2124
03:12:14,330 --> 03:12:22,330
ambitious, and the most intrepid. They, they moved to the US when they're like 20. Or when they're

2125
03:12:22,330 --> 03:12:28,970
like 25 for the prime working, so they we pay none of the cost. They come here, immediately start

2126
03:12:28,970 --> 03:12:35,450
paying taxes. You know, it's, it's such a scam. I can't believe that we don't. I can't believe we

2127
03:12:35,450 --> 03:12:40,890
don't like roll out the red carpet for literally everyone in every direction. But obviously, that's

2128
03:12:41,770 --> 03:12:47,049
so I thought I'm just trying to say is I completely agree with you that it's like, everyone is

2129
03:12:47,049 --> 03:12:52,249
committing suicide, the fiat currencies, and should we just do absolutely nothing at all, that would

2130
03:12:52,249 --> 03:12:59,289
be like the steel man. But where I disagree is, I just have direct firsthand knowledge of how possible

2131
03:12:59,289 --> 03:13:05,450
it is to to like, clone a different coin. And we see all these people releasing the coins, you know,

2132
03:13:05,450 --> 03:13:10,729
you see Ethereum, you see people do, people just spin up a Solana, which has very low effort, you

2133
03:13:10,729 --> 03:13:19,130
know, you have one a 16 z partner, you spin it up. And so yeah, I kind of worry, within the crypto

2134
03:13:19,130 --> 03:13:24,890
domain, it's all open source, it's just very easy to spin something up. So I actually worry about the

2135
03:13:25,689 --> 03:13:33,450
competition, intra, intra crypto competition more. And I think we don't really have great competitors

2136
03:13:33,450 --> 03:13:41,530
to Bitcoin. I mean, luckily for us, but I think if we did, then I think like, why, why even why even

2137
03:13:41,530 --> 03:13:46,010
take that risk? And why even go to that? That point, but I just wanted to reiterate as strongly

2138
03:13:46,010 --> 03:13:52,090
as possible that I, I actually, I understand why people say that, because the fiat currencies are

2139
03:13:52,410 --> 03:13:57,849
just so badly run and whatever. And, but I do, part of this is that I think we have to actually

2140
03:13:57,849 --> 03:14:03,130
become Bitcoin has to actually become a currency with a payment system somewhere. That is not,

2141
03:14:04,249 --> 03:14:09,770
you know, it has to, you have to do like a full root and branch complete replacement, or you say,

2142
03:14:11,049 --> 03:14:15,929
we're going to replace the whole thing. Like right now we have Central Bank, Bank of

2143
03:14:15,929 --> 03:14:23,369
International Settlements, the Fed, we have Bank of, Chase Manhattan, we have Visa. The goal is

2144
03:14:23,369 --> 03:14:30,330
really to build out a whole stack that replaces that entire thing, where the whole thing is

2145
03:14:30,330 --> 03:14:36,410
replaced. So you have like small block L1, sidechains for payments, sidechains for anonymity,

2146
03:14:36,410 --> 03:14:41,849
you have other L2s, you have lightning, you have different wallets, you have SPV client,

2147
03:14:41,849 --> 03:14:48,570
you have like a whole, a whole big pyramid of stuff, features and things. And you have actual

2148
03:14:48,570 --> 03:14:53,130
use cases, you have stuff that you would buy, stuff you'd use the money for, which is like a

2149
03:14:53,130 --> 03:14:59,609
Namecoin and a prediction markets kind of come in that way for me, kind of, I think like fundamental

2150
03:14:59,609 --> 03:15:05,530
value. And I just think you really want to do that if you really want to compete seriously with

2151
03:15:06,330 --> 03:15:10,570
the fiat currency. Yeah. What you mentioned earlier is like, you know, why you don't think,

2152
03:15:10,570 --> 03:15:14,010
you know, it's going to go to a hundred trillion dollars or whatever, whatever the,

2153
03:15:15,210 --> 03:15:21,130
the, the moon shot is, right? I think we shouldn't just say, well, you know what happened.

2154
03:15:21,130 --> 03:15:25,049
Is that it's about, you know, the one of the limiting factors is obviously the level of

2155
03:15:25,049 --> 03:15:32,169
adoption, right? That you need the money is this kind of, it ultimately is a social layer to a

2156
03:15:32,169 --> 03:15:34,970
degree, right? You have to have enough people agreeing that that's the thing that they want

2157
03:15:34,970 --> 03:15:39,929
to use and they want to accept. And if you're limiting how many people are allowed to operate

2158
03:15:39,929 --> 03:15:47,289
on the platform or use the thing, right? Use the money. That's a restricting factor to adoption.

2159
03:15:47,289 --> 03:15:51,689
And so I do, I do agree with you, what these other platforms have done, have created interesting

2160
03:15:51,689 --> 03:15:58,809
things that require you to use Ethereum and Solana. And what I think a lot of people don't

2161
03:15:58,809 --> 03:16:05,929
understand in like 2017, the reason Bitcoin, in my opinion, was so, I mean, shot up so wildly

2162
03:16:05,929 --> 03:16:11,689
was because you had, in order to access altcoins, you had to buy Bitcoin. It was the only like

2163
03:16:11,689 --> 03:16:18,169
common link between all exchanges. So everybody settled into Bitcoin because that was the,

2164
03:16:18,169 --> 03:16:26,169
that was the universal money of, of the crypto space. And what happened in 2021 is

2165
03:16:27,210 --> 03:16:34,010
stable coins came along and Ethereum and Uniswap and Solana and all these ecosystems cropped up

2166
03:16:34,010 --> 03:16:39,130
where you could access all these, all this gambling, whatever you want to call it. You

2167
03:16:39,130 --> 03:16:42,970
could access all this new crypto without ever having to touch Bitcoin. And a lot of them never

2168
03:16:42,970 --> 03:16:47,450
did, which is like mind blowing, right? You have this massive explosion of users and they didn't

2169
03:16:47,450 --> 03:16:54,010
even, they didn't even bother to look at Bitcoin, right? So it's, it's weird. It's like you're,

2170
03:16:54,010 --> 03:16:58,249
you know, in the short term, I understand what you're saying. You got to bring people in.

2171
03:16:58,249 --> 03:17:03,290
And I think if it's in a harmless way, that's, and that's probably the only thing what's,

2172
03:17:03,290 --> 03:17:09,369
what's the risk. So like in your mind to be self-critiquing, what's the biggest risk of

2173
03:17:09,369 --> 03:17:16,569
these BIPs? Well, I mean, so the thing is, I knew all of that when I set out to create them.

2174
03:17:16,569 --> 03:17:22,089
So it's not like I created something independently of that. And now we're going to see if it has any

2175
03:17:22,089 --> 03:17:26,089
risks. I knew all that the whole point I thought we're going to, okay, we're going to open the

2176
03:17:26,089 --> 03:17:32,089
door to these sidechains. So I thought we have to design it in a way that it can never negatively

2177
03:17:32,089 --> 03:17:35,930
impact the people who aren't using it. So it was like design, it was all designed around that.

2178
03:17:35,930 --> 03:17:40,249
I think honestly, the biggest risk is something like I waste everyone's time with this idea and

2179
03:17:40,249 --> 03:17:48,089
it turns out being unpopular. I don't, there's no real way that it can do anything. Like there's

2180
03:17:48,089 --> 03:17:52,170
nothing that it does that we don't already do. You know, we already allow miners to collect

2181
03:17:52,170 --> 03:17:57,209
transaction fees. We already allow them to merge mine. We already allow something to,

2182
03:17:58,969 --> 03:18:03,930
we already allow people to sell their Bitcoin and buy Litecoin or buy Solana.

2183
03:18:04,969 --> 03:18:11,930
So this is just sending your Bitcoin to a script where you get like bit Solana and then you,

2184
03:18:13,130 --> 03:18:17,690
and then asking the miners to send it back, you know, just in a way that they probably will.

2185
03:18:18,569 --> 03:18:24,489
And so if it doesn't work, then we'll be back where we are. And it's op-nop5,

2186
03:18:24,489 --> 03:18:31,050
we just shut op-nop5 off. There, we have infinite op codes. So

2187
03:18:33,290 --> 03:18:36,249
there's really no, it's just designed not to have any risk.

2188
03:18:37,690 --> 03:18:42,329
It certainly has a one, a couple of things that might do is alter the trajectory of like

2189
03:18:43,130 --> 03:18:49,050
what people focus on. But that's true of anything, you know, that was certainly true of the Lightning

2190
03:18:49,050 --> 03:18:54,489
Network and Ethereum. They, you know, they changed all kinds of other stuff around.

2191
03:18:56,010 --> 03:19:02,969
I think it's, I think it's quite likely that, that something like this will eventually happen

2192
03:19:02,969 --> 03:19:08,170
anyway. And so I don't even see how it could be significantly different from this, given that,

2193
03:19:09,130 --> 03:19:13,849
as I was saying before, miners can always filter any messages, any message from L1 that they like.

2194
03:19:15,130 --> 03:19:25,290
Miners can, so miners can always kill any idea. I don't know, like what, what would people do?

2195
03:19:25,290 --> 03:19:32,410
Like maybe they come up with a zk-SNARK thing so that, but even still, that doesn't actually

2196
03:19:32,410 --> 03:19:37,609
help as much as people think it does at all. Well, because it's all about data availability,

2197
03:19:37,609 --> 03:19:46,010
really. So, so I don't know. I don't think it has, turning it on as an option for other people to use.

2198
03:19:46,270 --> 03:19:58,270
I think it has no risk. You know, it could always be a bug or something, but, but the way Bitcoin works, since it's a soft fork, you have all these people out there who won't upgrade.

2199
03:19:58,270 --> 03:20:07,270
So they'll never even enforce BIP300. So it's, to me, it is really is like something that you only run it if you are using it.

2200
03:20:07,270 --> 03:20:21,270
The miners are some of the users, and that is kind of the whole reason why we're being so open and sort of transparent about it, is because we all share the same miners.

2201
03:20:21,270 --> 03:20:40,270
So, so there's that sense in which it is shared, but I don't think, there are the people who would, big, big losers would probably be like altcoin people or people who are overinvested in some rival L2 concept or the kind of like a gatekeeper type person or something like that.

2202
03:20:40,270 --> 03:20:44,270
Have you talked to Charlie Lee about it? Like any time? I know you've been at EMAC.

2203
03:20:45,270 --> 03:20:52,270
I haven't talked to him in a very long time. I talked to Bobby Lee.

2204
03:20:52,270 --> 03:20:53,270
Yeah.

2205
03:20:53,270 --> 03:20:55,270
Six months ago or so.

2206
03:20:55,270 --> 03:20:56,270
He's not a Litecoiner.

2207
03:20:56,270 --> 03:21:00,270
He's a Bitcoiner for sure.

2208
03:21:00,270 --> 03:21:02,270
He's a cool, he's a cool little product.

2209
03:21:02,270 --> 03:21:05,270
Yeah, he's a nice guy too. I don't know. I mean, it's.

2210
03:21:06,270 --> 03:21:08,270
Yep, I don't know either.

2211
03:21:08,270 --> 03:21:18,270
You got cut off a little bit there.

2212
03:21:18,270 --> 03:21:24,270
Well, great. So, if anyone wants to say anything, then say it now.

2213
03:21:24,270 --> 03:21:27,270
I'm ordering some food to eat.

2214
03:21:28,270 --> 03:21:30,270
Hello.

2215
03:21:30,270 --> 03:21:34,270
Hello.

2216
03:21:34,270 --> 03:21:38,270
Can you guys hear me?

2217
03:21:38,270 --> 03:21:40,270
Yes, I think so.

2218
03:21:40,270 --> 03:21:42,270
Okay.

2219
03:21:43,270 --> 03:21:46,270
Are you worried at all about the replicator problem?

2220
03:21:46,270 --> 03:21:49,270
The replicators?

2221
03:21:49,270 --> 03:21:51,270
Replicators.

2222
03:21:51,270 --> 03:21:53,270
Yeah.

2223
03:21:53,270 --> 03:22:00,270
If the code is updated and something is not like faded.

2224
03:22:01,270 --> 03:22:04,270
I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to there.

2225
03:22:04,270 --> 03:22:07,270
Problem with the replicators.

2226
03:22:07,270 --> 03:22:09,270
What does that mean?

2227
03:22:09,270 --> 03:22:10,270
I don't know.

2228
03:22:10,270 --> 03:22:16,150
faded 100%, maybe the problem with the replicators happen

2229
03:22:16,150 --> 03:22:17,110
again.

2230
03:22:20,410 --> 03:22:23,630
I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to there.

2231
03:22:23,650 --> 03:22:24,850
problem with the replicators.

2232
03:22:26,430 --> 03:22:27,790
What does that mean?

2233
03:22:28,690 --> 03:22:29,020
I don't

2234
03:22:29,080 --> 03:22:34,800
know. This is taking unused op -not 5 and making the script

2235
03:22:34,800 --> 03:22:39,180
interpreter fail if you try to withdraw early before it's counting to 13,000.

2236
03:22:40,480 --> 03:22:43,840
And that's all it does and you could instead just make it fail instantly which would

2237
03:22:43,840 --> 03:22:45,560
disable op -not 5 forever.

2238
03:22:46,680 --> 03:22:47,770
in that sense

2239
03:22:48,370 --> 03:22:51,090
the damage it can do is very limited to...

2240
03:22:51,090 --> 03:22:56,270
five is disabled, so there's no replicating happening beneath the bank.

2241
03:22:58,770 --> 03:23:02,090
Replication, what you mean like coins being counterfeited?

2242
03:23:02,430 --> 03:23:06,290
I don't know what that means, but never heard of that, so

2243
03:23:06,520 --> 03:23:09,180
I don't think it is.

2244
03:23:09,680 --> 03:23:13,980
OK, no replicators problem here.

2245
03:23:14,500 --> 03:23:16,140
thanks. No replicators, yes.

2246
03:23:17,580 --> 03:23:18,320
That's good. That's good.

2247
03:23:19,360 --> 03:23:20,280
Yep, great.

2248
03:23:54,144 --> 03:23:55,644
Okay, well, this is pretty fun.

2249
03:23:56,344 --> 03:23:59,764
think it went pretty well.

2250
03:24:02,184 --> 03:24:03,024
None of those...

2251
03:24:03,024 --> 03:24:08,778
think of all the hate this idea was getting not that long ago, but we've done many

2252
03:24:08,858 --> 03:24:14,858
spaces since and where are they now?

2253
03:24:15,398 --> 03:24:21,358
don't know. they have moved on to maybe they still hate this idea and they're just

2254
03:24:21,358 --> 03:24:24,438
bored with repeating themselves.

2255
03:24:26,318 --> 03:24:28,418
But nice to meet you.

2256
03:24:28,712 --> 03:24:34,292
great. Hello. I actually just kind of wanted to ask, and I'm sorry if you've already

2257
03:24:34,292 --> 03:24:36,972
stated this before, but what do feel is your

2258
03:24:38,572 --> 03:24:41,832
biggest blocks or detriments for getting everybody to buy in?

2259
03:24:45,372 --> 03:24:47,732
My biggest blocks, my biggest detriment,

2260
03:24:48,285 --> 03:24:49,845
I think I'm not doing very well.

2261
03:24:50,225 --> 03:24:55,965
getting everybody to buy, like, getting the buy -in from the community on the BIP.

2262
03:24:56,725 --> 03:24:57,385
That's what I'm asking.

2263
03:24:59,865 --> 03:25:05,685
Well, I personally think, we have some supporters who are

2264
03:25:05,685 --> 03:25:07,985
miners, but again,

2265
03:25:08,279 --> 03:25:11,419
this is all trauma from SegWit2X, is all nonsensical.

2266
03:25:14,699 --> 03:25:20,499
If they should take slightly more of a leadership role, I'm

2267
03:25:20,499 --> 03:25:23,359
saying just move the knob a little bit.

2268
03:25:24,519 --> 03:25:27,679
If we could just get them to speak

2269
03:25:27,793 --> 03:25:31,693
up little bit more publicly, some have, but many have not.

2270
03:25:32,333 --> 03:25:37,933
if we could get to that, that would like a, we could do something where

2271
03:25:37,933 --> 03:25:43,433
a couple big pools speak out publicly in favor and they get their

2272
03:25:43,433 --> 03:25:45,573
hashrate increases perhaps.

2273
03:25:46,493 --> 03:25:47,493
And then that would just,

2274
03:25:47,547 --> 03:25:53,207
show more seriousness.

2275
03:25:53,487 --> 03:25:56,707
So that would move it along more quickly, I think.

2276
03:25:57,547 --> 03:26:03,247
Just for example, if we had more than 50 % hashrate signal support for the idea

2277
03:26:03,247 --> 03:26:07,301
reliably, And like, not just signal in the blockchain,

2278
03:26:07,301 --> 03:26:14,521
that

2279
03:26:14,521 --> 03:26:22,081
would

2280
03:26:22,081 --> 03:26:26,961
kind of rush things further, but

2281
03:26:27,055 --> 03:26:28,275
maybe they shouldn't be rushed.

2282
03:26:28,855 --> 03:26:33,135
That would move it along because then people would have to say, we'd have to again hear

2283
03:26:33,135 --> 03:26:37,135
the people say, why don't they like this idea?

2284
03:26:38,135 --> 03:26:43,015
What they end up saying is just the user may deposit funds and lose their money, which

2285
03:26:43,015 --> 03:26:46,809
is also true of literally everything, including Bitcoin itself and

2286
03:26:47,169 --> 03:26:48,689
the Lightning Network obviously.

2287
03:26:49,749 --> 03:26:55,129
So they say stuff like that or they say miners may make more money but of course.

2288
03:26:56,989 --> 03:27:00,189
If you boil down this whole mining incentives thing that's really what they mean.

2289
03:27:00,189 --> 03:27:05,649
Mine is going to be asked to do a few things,

2290
03:27:06,583 --> 03:27:12,543
process withdrawals, occasionally there's a dispute, run a

2291
03:27:12,543 --> 03:27:14,623
node, which probably not even happen.

2292
03:27:15,643 --> 03:27:20,723
And in return they get a huge amount of fee revenue and growing fee revenue.

2293
03:27:21,143 --> 03:27:26,043
So that would be like the thing that I think would speed it up the most, would be if

2294
03:27:26,043 --> 03:27:26,317
the

2295
03:27:26,637 --> 03:27:32,257
why is

2296
03:27:32,257 --> 03:27:37,757
because we have to say, are going to this idea, they could say something like, we want

2297
03:27:37,757 --> 03:27:43,677
this idea publicly and we would like people to say,

2298
03:27:44,557 --> 03:27:46,071
we have an open inquiry,

2299
03:27:47,231 --> 03:27:52,011
we would like people to explain to us why this idea is bad.

2300
03:27:52,891 --> 03:27:54,691
That would speed it up the most.

2301
03:27:55,791 --> 03:28:01,731
think it's a lot of, we have a lot of low skin in the game people who they're just

2302
03:28:01,731 --> 03:28:05,731
some guy with a Twitter account and they just say, they say such and

2303
03:28:05,825 --> 03:28:10,525
such. they, they, a lot of them have been saying, they've been critics for years.

2304
03:28:10,805 --> 03:28:16,165
we have, there's like the same three people who have been critics for a while and they

2305
03:28:16,165 --> 03:28:17,325
just say blah, blah, blah.

2306
03:28:17,505 --> 03:28:20,225
And people just say, you know, where there's smoke, there's fire.

2307
03:28:20,385 --> 03:28:21,745
They just sort of believe them or whatever.

2308
03:28:22,425 --> 03:28:25,579
so I think that would, that would

2309
03:28:25,579 --> 03:28:29,299
would help. That would be the fastest thing because we already have if you go to

2310
03:28:29,299 --> 03:28:34,339
LayerTwoLabs.com slash friends, we have an enormous amount of elite support.

2311
03:28:35,899 --> 03:28:37,799
We have some grassroots support.

2312
03:28:39,399 --> 03:28:41,919
We have support of all the different flavors.

2313
03:28:42,279 --> 03:28:45,332
They keep it to actually push it

2314
03:28:45,332 --> 03:28:47,112
it little bit further.

2315
03:28:47,332 --> 03:28:48,412
Sorry, I'm to mute myself.

2316
03:28:49,412 --> 03:28:52,692
I've just got like one, I've got a little bit of a response and then I yield my time

2317
03:28:52,692 --> 03:28:53,932
and thank you for that.

2318
03:28:55,192 --> 03:28:59,492
So I definitely fall into the latter group that I am a low skin in the game, Twitter

2319
03:28:59,492 --> 03:29:01,112
account holder, right?

2320
03:29:01,372 --> 03:29:04,232
That just kind of has been in Bitcoin for a long time.

2321
03:29:05,166 --> 03:29:10,606
the only reason why I personally and I don't have much

2322
03:29:10,606 --> 03:29:15,966
uh much knowledge to able to back it but I state that I I'm hesitant to have fear of

2323
03:29:15,966 --> 03:29:20,386
all sorts of changes because to me it always kind of seems to go back to the big block

2324
03:29:20,386 --> 03:29:24,840
small block argument where the reason why you're having this is because you

2325
03:29:24,900 --> 03:29:30,460
have a smaller group that stands to have great incentives and to gain greatly at the

2326
03:29:30,460 --> 03:29:31,560
detriment of everyone.

2327
03:29:32,000 --> 03:29:36,500
And it's usually masqueraded as one thing, but there's a small thing that will be

2328
03:29:36,500 --> 03:29:41,120
exploited. And it may or may not happen, it may or may not come to pass, but that is

2329
03:29:41,120 --> 03:29:43,940
the hesitancy that comes to my mind personally.

2330
03:29:44,460 --> 03:29:44,594
And I

2331
03:29:44,634 --> 03:29:50,074
think that many others, like within our ecosystem who are like me, who you would say

2332
03:29:50,074 --> 03:29:52,294
are low skinned in the gamers, feel that way.

2333
03:29:52,594 --> 03:29:56,254
And that is the resistance that happens.

2334
03:29:56,974 --> 03:30:00,014
I don't know how you will solve it.

2335
03:30:00,554 --> 03:30:03,874
Right now I'm observer, those are my thoughts.

2336
03:30:04,134 --> 03:30:04,348
like I

2337
03:30:04,388 --> 03:30:05,208
said, thank you for responding.

2338
03:30:05,888 --> 03:30:11,748
Yeah, sure. Well, I mean, do you have a thought on what the, you know, what the

2339
03:30:11,748 --> 03:30:13,288
detriment will be?

2340
03:30:14,608 --> 03:30:19,708
if you allow people to just sell their Bitcoin to buy Solana, then

2341
03:30:19,708 --> 03:30:24,102
what's the difference between selling their Bitcoin and spending it into

2342
03:30:24,142 --> 03:30:29,442
a BIP300 script and then having a different piece of software they call BitSolan, I'll

2343
03:30:29,442 --> 03:30:30,222
just credit them.

2344
03:30:30,722 --> 03:30:32,422
It's a completely different network.

2345
03:30:35,422 --> 03:30:41,362
brings up a different point that you're kind of like, so

2346
03:30:41,362 --> 03:30:43,856
I guess I'm a bit of an idealist, Like I'm choosing

2347
03:30:43,936 --> 03:30:44,816
Bitcoin to opt out.

2348
03:30:44,936 --> 03:30:45,916
think many people are.

2349
03:30:46,336 --> 03:30:50,196
doing that, you're kind of deriving and you're not, that's not Bitcoin anymore.

2350
03:30:50,216 --> 03:30:53,096
That's just trying to do something to gain.

2351
03:30:53,496 --> 03:30:57,416
And you risk yourself at impermeable loss, trying to do something that's not Bitcoin,

2352
03:30:57,556 --> 03:30:59,096
even if it's on the Bitcoin chain.

2353
03:31:00,036 --> 03:31:03,596
that's outside

2354
03:31:03,630 --> 03:31:06,370
like Bitcoin, that's outside of Bitcoin, precisely.

2355
03:31:06,710 --> 03:31:08,170
Yeah, exactly. But that's the point though.

2356
03:31:08,390 --> 03:31:09,210
it is though.

2357
03:31:09,710 --> 03:31:15,250
the Solana, Altcoin, and the the Drivechain that would emulate Solana,

2358
03:31:15,450 --> 03:31:17,470
those are both off the Bitcoin blockchain.

2359
03:31:18,170 --> 03:31:20,410
It's only BIP300 that is on the Bitcoin blockchain.

2360
03:31:32,344 --> 03:31:37,684
the that's not even kind of the word where effort of what I was going with and what the

2361
03:31:37,684 --> 03:31:39,084
value of that was even

2362
03:31:43,358 --> 03:31:48,378
impermeable loss, so you go into this BIP300 chain that you've put in a Bitcoin worth

2363
03:31:48,378 --> 03:31:52,978
of it. Somebody does something, rugs it, something finds some way to destroy it or make

2364
03:31:52,978 --> 03:31:54,218
it like worthless.

2365
03:31:54,498 --> 03:32:00,138
And now your exit out of that is 5,000 or 500,000 satoshis, as opposed to 100 million.

2366
03:32:01,778 --> 03:32:02,872
Yes, that

2367
03:32:02,872 --> 03:32:08,752
again, that is someone who has chosen to take that

2368
03:32:08,752 --> 03:32:14,192
risk. That's no different than you sell your US dollars and bought Bitcoin or whatever

2369
03:32:14,192 --> 03:32:15,472
country you're from.

2370
03:32:15,792 --> 03:32:16,092
know what I mean?

2371
03:32:16,292 --> 03:32:17,692
you choose to buy Bitcoin.

2372
03:32:19,432 --> 03:32:20,012
That's what I've saying.

2373
03:32:20,172 --> 03:32:21,052
We're saying the same thing.

2374
03:32:21,212 --> 03:32:22,552
that. And

2375
03:32:22,686 --> 03:32:24,866
wasn't even what I was trying to address.

2376
03:32:25,906 --> 03:32:31,706
My original, I came up because I just kind of wanted to where you

2377
03:32:31,706 --> 03:32:37,286
and your team were on how you would convince us, the nameless mini who

2378
03:32:37,286 --> 03:32:42,046
actually opt forward, where would we see the actual selfless utility that yeah, we can

2379
03:32:42,046 --> 03:32:42,379
all

2380
03:32:42,379 --> 03:32:47,899
actually benefit from utilizing this and putting this up line and actually having the

2381
03:32:47,899 --> 03:32:49,019
clients all utilize it?

2382
03:32:50,439 --> 03:32:54,879
that's, and you've kind of, like I'm saying, I didn't even think about, well, how do we

2383
03:32:54,879 --> 03:33:00,659
drive into, you know, how can it be utilized for an altcoin purpose or for a derivative

2384
03:33:00,659 --> 03:33:02,019
purpose that, you know,

2385
03:33:03,833 --> 03:33:07,413
Well, I think the whole point of it is that it's optional.

2386
03:33:07,873 --> 03:33:13,833
it's kind of like what you might like is

2387
03:33:13,833 --> 03:33:15,653
not what other people might like.

2388
03:33:16,253 --> 03:33:21,613
And the people who want, if you want only to stay on L1, then

2389
03:33:21,887 --> 03:33:26,247
I think this also kind of helps you because what would happen, there would be no

2390
03:33:26,247 --> 03:33:31,787
scaling war. what we had in the scaling war was we had a lot of very sincere people who

2391
03:33:31,787 --> 03:33:32,807
wanted large blocks.

2392
03:33:34,407 --> 03:33:38,807
what you could say, well, we just won't let them get their way.

2393
03:33:39,167 --> 03:33:40,447
But then what happened?

2394
03:33:41,287 --> 03:33:41,641
What

2395
03:33:41,781 --> 03:33:47,741
What happened was Roger Ver took the Bitcoin.com domain name and split off

2396
03:33:47,741 --> 03:33:52,061
and he created Bitcoin Cash and he tried to represent it as the real Bitcoin.

2397
03:33:53,861 --> 03:33:58,921
And you know, like he didn't really succeed, but it's kind of like, is that what you

2398
03:33:58,921 --> 03:34:01,381
want do when instead they could have

2399
03:34:01,395 --> 03:34:06,675
just been people who use something else no different than if how someone today could

2400
03:34:06,675 --> 03:34:10,155
use liquid or could use PaytoScript hash or could use the Lightning Network.

2401
03:34:10,375 --> 03:34:15,315
would be Bitcoiners who use the Lightning Network and Bitcoiners who don't and would be

2402
03:34:15,315 --> 03:34:19,335
Bitcoiners who use the large block sidechain and Bitcoiners who don't and there would

2403
03:34:19,335 --> 03:34:21,075
be Bitcoiners who use the

2404
03:34:21,149 --> 03:34:26,789
Zcash privacy Bitcoin sidechain and those who don't.

2405
03:34:27,669 --> 03:34:33,069
the ability to resolve disputes over the block size and over,

2406
03:34:33,389 --> 03:34:37,589
know, privacy and the scale, I think, are pretty big.

2407
03:34:37,769 --> 03:34:40,889
has nothing to do with Solana is just an example of something that is a

2408
03:34:40,963 --> 03:34:46,703
idea that, no offense if you like Solana, but it's like a very

2409
03:34:46,703 --> 03:34:49,083
fringe idea where someone is likely to lose all their money.

2410
03:34:49,263 --> 03:34:50,163
So that's why I use that.

2411
03:34:50,243 --> 03:34:51,623
use that as an example of a bad idea.

2412
03:34:51,743 --> 03:34:56,283
the whole point, you know, you see the whole point is that we should not be judgmental

2413
03:34:56,283 --> 03:34:57,523
with respect to,

2414
03:34:58,883 --> 03:34:59,143
you know what mean?

2415
03:34:59,243 --> 03:35:00,657
Like what if I went back in time and I

2416
03:35:00,657 --> 03:35:06,037
I told you, you could tell someone today, I don't think you should be allowed to spend

2417
03:35:06,037 --> 03:35:11,877
your own Bitcoin into a BIP300 script that uses Opnot5, even though you could do

2418
03:35:11,877 --> 03:35:17,197
that today. We don't have the full node to enforce this code written by Paul or

2419
03:35:17,197 --> 03:35:19,317
so the script interpreter fails.

2420
03:35:20,337 --> 03:35:20,377
So

2421
03:35:20,411 --> 03:35:25,311
you could say that to someone today, but I could go back in time and I could find the

2422
03:35:25,311 --> 03:35:29,051
moment when you first bought Bitcoin and I could say, you aren't allowed to invest your

2423
03:35:29,051 --> 03:35:32,611
own US dollars or whatever you have.

2424
03:35:33,151 --> 03:35:36,311
You aren't allowed to invest your own US dollars in Bitcoin.

2425
03:35:37,731 --> 03:35:39,451
I don't think you should have that option.

2426
03:35:40,745 --> 03:35:41,705
what would you say to me?

2427
03:35:41,865 --> 03:35:45,745
would say, well, too bad because I do whatever I want.

2428
03:35:47,745 --> 03:35:50,905
And that's kind of what this is as well.

2429
03:35:51,585 --> 03:35:56,825
The BIP300 part is not stapling any of the Solana stuff into the

2430
03:35:56,825 --> 03:35:58,385
L1 blockchain.

2431
03:35:59,939 --> 03:36:05,939
It's only getting 13,000 for an example of something that I got it

2432
03:36:09,059 --> 03:36:11,119
Okay, should we do Mihai?

2433
03:36:15,019 --> 03:36:18,359
Mihai, hello guys Yes

2434
03:36:21,572 --> 03:36:22,312
Hello, hi.

2435
03:36:23,672 --> 03:36:26,332
I have a couple of questions about Drivechain.

2436
03:36:27,912 --> 03:36:33,772
I was in a space with some other people having a debate back and

2437
03:36:34,212 --> 03:36:39,312
Excuse me. And I was a bit confused

2438
03:36:39,426 --> 03:36:45,426
on the explanation of what acting is and how does it

2439
03:36:45,426 --> 03:36:51,186
work. also the other bit of it all was the type of

2440
03:36:51,186 --> 03:36:56,466
security, what I've been told is basically each one

2441
03:36:56,466 --> 03:36:59,166
of users, they

2442
03:36:59,180 --> 03:37:01,520
can choose their own security models.

2443
03:37:02,440 --> 03:37:04,840
So what does it mean exactly?

2444
03:37:05,900 --> 03:37:07,080
These two questions.

2445
03:37:07,780 --> 03:37:12,080
If I made myself clear, if I didn't make myself clear, I do apologize.

2446
03:37:13,600 --> 03:37:14,980
No, I think it was clear.

2447
03:37:15,760 --> 03:37:18,360
first the ACK, the ACK thing is just counting.

2448
03:37:18,860 --> 03:37:18,934
It's

2449
03:37:18,934 --> 03:37:20,294
It's like a counter, but it's,

2450
03:37:21,674 --> 03:37:24,834
and it's very much like a cross -chain confirmation,

2451
03:37:26,634 --> 03:37:31,754
but critically, it only goes up once per block, but it can also stay the same

2452
03:37:31,754 --> 03:37:36,314
if no one moves it around, and it can also go down by once a block.

2453
03:37:36,494 --> 03:37:38,688
So this is the thing that counts to 13,000

2454
03:37:38,688 --> 03:37:43,888
,000. If the withdrawal can

2455
03:37:43,888 --> 03:37:49,508
accumulate enough of this count, like enough upvotes to get to a 13,000

2456
03:37:49,508 --> 03:37:55,368
score, then it will clear and the withdrawal will go through on

2457
03:37:55,368 --> 03:37:58,442
L1. But this is the only thing that happens on L1, deposits and withdrawals.

2458
03:37:58,982 --> 03:38:01,402
Everything else is happening on L2.

2459
03:38:02,902 --> 03:38:08,282
the idea of choosing your own security model, that is completely true,

2460
03:38:09,022 --> 03:38:14,842
but I can understand how it might confuse a lot of people because it means several

2461
03:38:14,842 --> 03:38:16,562
unrelated things, like at least three.

2462
03:38:16,562 --> 03:38:18,196
So one of the

2463
03:38:18,216 --> 03:38:21,316
things it means is you choose to deposit the coins into BIP300.

2464
03:38:21,556 --> 03:38:26,876
So in other words, you choose the Drivechain security model versus the LayerOne

2465
03:38:26,876 --> 03:38:28,836
security model versus the Lightning Network.

2466
03:38:29,516 --> 03:38:31,576
So you choose BIP300.

2467
03:38:33,036 --> 03:38:37,950
So that's a narrow sense in which, just like would choose whatever, pay to

2468
03:38:37,950 --> 03:38:41,270
Script hash, you would choose Liquid, Lightning, Statechains.

2469
03:38:42,730 --> 03:38:45,470
what people are really getting at is something else.

2470
03:38:46,450 --> 03:38:52,310
What they really are getting at is if you want to live

2471
03:38:52,310 --> 03:38:56,210
in a world where you have to run the large blockchain,

2472
03:38:58,844 --> 03:38:59,504
then you can.

2473
03:38:59,884 --> 03:39:05,784
So if you want to be Roger Vere and run large block Bitcoin, then you

2474
03:39:05,784 --> 03:39:06,544
can do that.

2475
03:39:10,904 --> 03:39:16,904
But if you want to run something else where you live in a Solana type world, and you

2476
03:39:16,904 --> 03:39:17,404
run a

2477
03:39:17,458 --> 03:39:20,798
new piece of software that's Bitcoin only, but it's a clone of Solana.

2478
03:39:21,818 --> 03:39:22,798
Then you do that.

2479
03:39:23,238 --> 03:39:27,978
so what they mean there is they're talking about the cost of running a full node.

2480
03:39:28,298 --> 03:39:33,638
And they're saying it's easy to run Bitcoin Core, which is a node that is easier to

2481
03:39:33,638 --> 03:39:37,118
run, versus a different node

2482
03:39:37,212 --> 03:39:43,112
which is very expensive to run, a node which may reveal your

2483
03:39:43,112 --> 03:39:47,072
physical location, maybe harder to run over Tor, know.

2484
03:39:48,072 --> 03:39:49,692
So maybe harder to run anonymously.

2485
03:39:50,672 --> 03:39:54,132
So what they really mean is this idea of the differential node cost.

2486
03:39:54,712 --> 03:39:56,932
This idea that the nodes all cost

2487
03:39:56,966 --> 03:39:58,166
different amounts.

2488
03:39:59,746 --> 03:40:05,326
if you want it, you should be able to buy it to some extent.

2489
03:40:08,346 --> 03:40:14,046
So if you want to run something that is like Zcash, a Zcash -like

2490
03:40:14,046 --> 03:40:16,506
thing, that thing

2491
03:40:16,719 --> 03:40:22,079
will have more privacy, but it will be harder to detect inflation bug,

2492
03:40:23,199 --> 03:40:23,839
so stuff like that.

2493
03:40:24,619 --> 03:40:26,459
So that's what they mean is anyone can run their own software.

2494
03:40:26,799 --> 03:40:28,179
You run whatever node you want to run.

2495
03:40:28,599 --> 03:40:30,419
You don't have to run the same node as everyone else.

2496
03:40:30,579 --> 03:40:34,439
See right now, you either run Bitcoin Core or you basically aren't running a node.

2497
03:40:35,339 --> 03:40:36,419
So it's all

2498
03:40:36,473 --> 03:40:37,173
or nothing.

2499
03:40:38,953 --> 03:40:40,253
when they - What's it gonna say?

2500
03:40:42,153 --> 03:40:47,913
Is it fair to say that this type of approach could increase the possibility

2501
03:40:47,913 --> 03:40:50,853
of people putting their asset at risk?

2502
03:40:51,253 --> 03:40:56,013
Because if anything goes wrong with any models that

2503
03:40:56,227 --> 03:41:02,127
anyone chooses, then you are basically on the

2504
03:41:02,127 --> 03:41:03,307
loss, isn't it?

2505
03:41:04,507 --> 03:41:07,007
Yeah, I think that is something that would happen.

2506
03:41:08,767 --> 03:41:14,247
What would happen is instead of people selling their Bitcoin, buying Ethereum, and then

2507
03:41:14,247 --> 03:41:15,687
getting rugged on Ethereum,

2508
03:41:15,981 --> 03:41:20,081
would be exactly the same story, instead there would be no Ethereum part.

2509
03:41:21,001 --> 03:41:26,421
take their Bitcoin, they'd move it into a bit Ethereum,

2510
03:41:27,321 --> 03:41:32,721
something that is, the software is almost identical to an Ethereum node, but there's

2511
03:41:32,721 --> 03:41:33,841
only Bitcoin there.

2512
03:41:34,241 --> 03:41:35,735
They move it to Rootstock

2513
03:41:37,875 --> 03:41:40,915
and then they move it in there, and then they would get rugged over there.

2514
03:41:41,935 --> 03:41:45,995
They would invest in, they would use DeFi, they would get rugged.

2515
03:41:46,415 --> 03:41:48,075
so then they would lose.

2516
03:41:48,255 --> 03:41:51,415
In that sense, there'd be more Bitcoin losses, but only because there's more Bitcoin

2517
03:41:51,415 --> 03:41:51,955
activity.

2518
03:41:53,595 --> 03:41:55,489
But in both cases, it's the users,

2519
03:41:55,629 --> 03:41:57,289
they've chosen that for themselves.

2520
03:41:57,549 --> 03:42:00,249
So the end result is the same, it's just more Bitcoin.

2521
03:42:01,349 --> 03:42:06,989
But I will argue that also in our situation, as it stands right

2522
03:42:06,989 --> 03:42:09,669
now, we also choose the security models.

2523
03:42:09,769 --> 03:42:11,189
It's also the user's choice.

2524
03:42:11,189 --> 03:42:14,849
But I will say that the approach is more

2525
03:42:15,243 --> 03:42:21,163
decentralized now than what the upgrade will assume to

2526
03:42:21,163 --> 03:42:23,223
bring, if anything.

2527
03:42:25,123 --> 03:42:30,863
Well, we already choose our own security model, But we have,

2528
03:42:31,123 --> 03:42:34,683
if we cannot choose to

2529
03:42:34,997 --> 03:42:40,697
use, like if we have four Bitcoin, we can't, we have to use them with the Bitcoin Core

2530
03:42:40,697 --> 03:42:45,517
security model. So we cannot switch them to like the Ethereum security model.

2531
03:42:45,617 --> 03:42:51,357
And that's what I think people are referring to when they say BIP300 allows you to

2532
03:42:51,357 --> 03:42:53,377
choose your own security model.

2533
03:42:53,437 --> 03:42:54,751
That is my best guess.

2534
03:42:55,391 --> 03:43:02,710
Why more decentralized i have a very specific metric of decentralization is being the cost of a spinning up a new full node.

2535
03:43:02,891 --> 03:43:11,210
I mean i think that it's a it's a it's an abstract term that has many different meanings and i think there's one sense in which.

2536
03:43:12,090 --> 03:43:31,331
You're more free in the altcoin world to just do whatever you want whereas bit three hundred constrains you in a few ways because you have to use the twenty one million bitcoin and you have to have access to layer one bitcoin core so you're constrained if you use a drivechain instead of an altcoin so altcoin gives you more freedom.

2537
03:43:31,971 --> 03:43:41,370
The problem is that you're stuck with an altcoin and then you have the same problem that for example you know like bitcoin cash and all these other people have had for you have you lose ninety nine percent of your.

2538
03:43:42,930 --> 03:43:57,210
Of the US dollar value of the coin is is decreased because it's just difficult having an altcoin is difficult it's like having several different things like you have you go into your house and you have different plug electrical plug sizes everywhere.

2539
03:43:57,691 --> 03:44:04,411
It's just better to have standardization different you know the recording keyboard and you have some other keyboard.

2540
03:44:05,291 --> 03:44:16,691
So complete different shape just doesn't really work maybe usba you know usb so those are some of my thoughts.

2541
03:44:16,691 --> 03:44:32,731
One more question and I'll see another hand up I do apologize the compression of the sorry one second I'm being distracted in the same time.

2542
03:44:32,731 --> 03:44:51,691
That's fine it happens to me all the time I guess we'll go to pseudonym next after this person gets there hopefully they get their final question and I guess we'll just go to pseudonym now and then he'll have time to hello pseudonym.

2543
03:44:51,851 --> 03:44:53,370
Hello pseudonym.

2544
03:44:59,291 --> 03:45:01,131
Hey hello how are you doing.

2545
03:45:03,370 --> 03:45:04,330
Very well can you hear me.

2546
03:45:06,731 --> 03:45:20,731
So hi Paul so it's a question for you I heard you say in the past that like miners would kind of only go for the largest fee that that's on the sidechain or the which block to include.

2547
03:45:21,691 --> 03:45:41,691
And my question is like how does a user of the sidechain like quantify the fan the finality of its transaction if it doesn't know whether the miner is validating what the the hash that they include on their block.

2548
03:45:41,691 --> 03:46:08,251
Yeah they will know this is yes this is a question about emerged mining which is different from deposits and withdrawals and this is also different from BIP300 because unrelated it's related to BIP301 which is the other part but BIP301 is is a little bit tamer because vanilla merge mining was already invented by Satoshi years ago and it's been in continuous use.

2549
03:46:12,650 --> 03:46:14,650
I lost you.

2550
03:46:14,650 --> 03:46:42,650
Yeah sorry about that so I will repeat that now about I'll just answer your question so the you don't the user doesn't need to know whether or not they're the user will measure finality with kind of a percentage of the total amount of money that they're going to withdraw.

2551
03:46:42,650 --> 03:47:12,571
The user will measure finality with confirmations so it's be exactly the same as with it won't be exactly the same but it's the same principle as with L1 where you broadcast the transaction be unconfirmed when a sidechain block is found is found with is found linked to an equivalent main chain block so they all have the same timestamp and then it moves on to the next block so you will still have confirmations and you can still have.

2552
03:47:13,610 --> 03:47:36,731
You could have reorgs or you could have and you would have people who have various levels of paranoia requiring yeah if you buy something from Amazon it doesn't really need confirmations because Amazon can always cancel the order but if you're buying something from bit refill if you buy like a gift card they kind of need to be a little more paranoid so they.

2553
03:47:36,731 --> 03:48:04,731
Because what I see is that the miner is not gonna like and on main chain like if a miner create an invalid block he won't get his block built on top so you will lose the reward but with the drivechain component of it if the next miner is not validating.

2554
03:48:04,731 --> 03:48:32,731
And you just think paying the highest fee I'm a bit I'm a bit confused like that do you expect most miner to validate the sidechain to or no I think well I think when the node the sidechain node cost is very low it would be a moot point because it'd be so cheap that it won't matter and probably at that point probably many will run both.

2555
03:48:32,731 --> 03:49:00,731
My view though is that the BIP301 it doesn't require the layer one miners to do any of that validation so because someone someone bids a high fee only the top bid is selected and then that finds the that finds like if you have a main chain block 700,000 and then sidechain block 501.

2556
03:49:00,731 --> 03:49:24,731
Even 700,001 and even maintenance sidechain block 502 you know they found is like a little pair from together and so there is no sense in which anyone is unclear about how many confirmations they have everyone knows how many they have it's all publicly available information.

2557
03:49:25,731 --> 03:49:37,731
So it's very I don't you seem to be trying to describe a situation where I would be on a sidechain and broadcast transaction and someone wouldn't know.

2558
03:49:38,731 --> 03:50:03,731
They wouldn't know like is this confirmed yet but you just wait you just wait for six confirmations or you wait for 10 confirmations or you wait for 100 confirmations you wait a whole day or you say you know what I'm I refuse to I mean I refuse to wait I'll take the risk I'll wait for one confirmation or even zero confirmations.

2559
03:50:04,731 --> 03:50:14,731
Yeah but do you basically wait as many confirmations as you need to know that there's at least one miner that validated the sidechain.

2560
03:50:15,731 --> 03:50:23,731
No that's not relevant because the nodes it's the sidechain full nodes that are that are validating the each block.

2561
03:50:24,731 --> 03:50:32,731
It's only thing that is what the what is the equivalent of the meeting the difficulty requirement in L2.

2562
03:50:33,731 --> 03:50:36,731
So on L1 you have to make sure that enough proof of work was done.

2563
03:50:36,731 --> 03:50:48,731
So on L1 you have the hashing you have 80 block headers they need to have a certain number of leading zeros in the bits which means the number has to be beneath a certain value.

2564
03:50:49,731 --> 03:50:57,731
So that's how it works in L1 to know whether or not the header has met the proof of work requirement.

2565
03:50:58,731 --> 03:51:06,731
So you have to make a little grid you can make a little grid and you draw the four grid of four things you say are we meeting the proof of work requirement.

2566
03:51:08,731 --> 03:51:11,731
And they say are we validating every validated the block.

2567
03:51:13,731 --> 03:51:18,731
Those are the columns and then the row would be you have L1 and L2.

2568
03:51:19,731 --> 03:51:21,731
So you have a little grid there.

2569
03:51:22,731 --> 03:51:28,731
So with L1 you the miners are doing the thermodynamic hashing on the 80 byte header.

2570
03:51:30,731 --> 03:51:34,731
That's if you meet the proof of work and then you download the whole block and validate it.

2571
03:51:34,731 --> 03:51:36,731
Make sure that it is following all the rules.

2572
03:51:38,731 --> 03:51:39,731
That's the same on L2.

2573
03:51:39,731 --> 03:51:45,731
Someone has on L2 the L2 nodes will be downloading the whole block and validating it.

2574
03:51:46,731 --> 03:51:50,731
So but that's separate from what does it mean that the next block has been found.

2575
03:51:50,731 --> 03:51:56,731
What does it mean that the next block has met the proof of work requirement.

2576
03:51:58,731 --> 03:52:09,731
And what does it mean is that is just if if there is a certain like link placed in L1 like a linking transaction like a little linking code.

2577
03:52:10,731 --> 03:52:22,731
And that that mere act by itself of like bidding for the bidding for inclusion and L1 and then being included in L1 having this one little transaction be included.

2578
03:52:23,731 --> 03:52:35,731
That thing that is what makes the sidechain header meet whatever with this thing that is equivalent to the proof of work.

2579
03:52:36,731 --> 03:52:38,731
But there is no thermodynamic work though.

2580
03:52:39,731 --> 03:52:40,731
In BIP301.

2581
03:52:41,731 --> 03:52:44,731
So I hope that wasn't too confusing and convoluted.

2582
03:52:45,731 --> 03:52:54,731
No it's just that let's say I'm a user and I'm transacting on a sidechain that has very little transaction activity.

2583
03:52:55,731 --> 03:53:01,731
And I'm transacting like a million dollar with like that requires finality.

2584
03:53:01,731 --> 03:53:02,731
Yeah a million dollar with a 3DP.

2585
03:53:03,731 --> 03:53:06,731
You would want to wait for many many confirmations in that scenario.

2586
03:53:06,731 --> 03:53:12,731
The sidechain is always the whole health of the whole drivechain thing is based on getting these fees.

2587
03:53:13,731 --> 03:53:15,731
So if it doesn't get that then it's probably not going to work.

2588
03:53:16,731 --> 03:53:18,731
But of course neither will probably nothing will work.

2589
03:53:19,731 --> 03:53:21,731
Everything requires some amount of popularity to work.

2590
03:53:22,731 --> 03:53:27,731
But but yeah that is the that is the concern.

2591
03:53:28,731 --> 03:53:31,731
But you can always mitigate that concern by just waiting for more confirmation.

2592
03:53:31,731 --> 03:53:32,731
So you can.

2593
03:53:32,731 --> 03:53:33,731
So that's.

2594
03:53:35,731 --> 03:53:38,731
That's basically my question is like how do you know how long to wait.

2595
03:53:39,731 --> 03:53:47,731
Because on Bitcoin it's kind of pretty clear it's the amount of electricity and that will spend 10 minutes.

2596
03:53:48,731 --> 03:53:54,731
Well I would say this is a kind of a mix because it's impossible with BIP301.

2597
03:53:54,731 --> 03:54:04,731
With BIP301 it may be cheap to read like it may cost nothing to reorg but it does still take 10 minutes per sidechain reorg.

2598
03:54:05,731 --> 03:54:14,731
So but with the but what you would do is the end the end the analogy would be to sum up the total amount of fees paid like the total coinbase amount.

2599
03:54:15,731 --> 03:54:23,731
Across all the blocks that have built on top of your block or including the one that you are in.

2600
03:54:24,731 --> 03:54:27,731
Because that's how much money other people will lose.

2601
03:54:28,731 --> 03:54:29,731
If it is reorg.

2602
03:54:31,731 --> 03:54:36,731
So those are the people who would want to stop it from reorging.

2603
03:54:37,731 --> 03:54:40,731
My personal point of view is that it would probably.

2604
03:54:41,731 --> 03:54:44,731
I mean what do you the scenario is something like.

2605
03:54:46,731 --> 03:54:51,731
It costs 10 cents to each sidechain block only pays 10 cents in fees.

2606
03:54:51,731 --> 03:54:56,731
So you waited for 300 but it's that's only 10 cents.

2607
03:54:57,731 --> 03:55:00,731
So that's if you wait for 300 blocks but it's only 30 dollars.

2608
03:55:01,731 --> 03:55:03,731
But you understand they don't they don't bid.

2609
03:55:04,731 --> 03:55:05,731
It's what it does not.

2610
03:55:06,731 --> 03:55:09,731
It's not as though someone can bid 31 dollars and reorg the whole sidechain.

2611
03:55:10,731 --> 03:55:13,731
You understand what they have to do is they have to they have to now bid.

2612
03:55:14,731 --> 03:55:19,731
11 cents for 301 blocks in a row 301 L1 blocks.

2613
03:55:20,731 --> 03:55:27,731
So they still can only do one 10 minute block per thing per.

2614
03:55:30,731 --> 03:55:35,731
It's one 10 minute block on L1 to find a new L2 block.

2615
03:55:36,731 --> 03:55:41,731
So each L2 block requires 10 minutes of time.

2616
03:55:42,731 --> 03:55:43,731
This is linked to the L1 block.

2617
03:55:44,731 --> 03:55:46,731
So you still have the time part.

2618
03:55:47,731 --> 03:55:50,731
But it doesn't really cost anything because to reorg you won't have.

2619
03:55:51,731 --> 03:55:54,731
It won't be very economically significant to do that reorg.

2620
03:55:55,731 --> 03:55:57,731
I don't know if this is making any sense.

2621
03:55:58,731 --> 03:55:59,731
I hope it's making some sense.

2622
03:56:00,731 --> 03:56:04,731
Not 100 percent but I think you can at least remove that.

2623
03:56:05,731 --> 03:56:12,731
The block subsidy on layer one increasing security and it's not as much on.

2624
03:56:13,731 --> 03:56:14,731
That's true.

2625
03:56:15,731 --> 03:56:20,731
Yes of course the sidechain has no block subsidy and it is a disadvantage.

2626
03:56:21,731 --> 03:56:24,731
Yeah and not many people like thinking like that.

2627
03:56:25,731 --> 03:56:28,731
They always assume this is a base of let's say two.

2628
03:56:29,731 --> 03:56:31,731
I don't know what was the reward.

2629
03:56:32,731 --> 03:56:37,731
That's a 3.25 Bitcoin worth of electricity wasted between each 10 minute.

2630
03:56:38,731 --> 03:56:44,731
And in that case you would have to monitor the sidechain activity to know.

2631
03:56:45,731 --> 03:56:50,731
Is my transaction too big for the security budget on that sidechain?

2632
03:56:51,730 --> 03:56:52,730
Right.

2633
03:56:56,730 --> 03:56:57,730
Yes.

2634
03:56:58,730 --> 03:57:03,730
It just seems hard to explain because people are used to a higher level of security on layer one.

2635
03:57:04,730 --> 03:57:05,730
Yes of course.

2636
03:57:06,730 --> 03:57:11,730
It's insane amount of security on layer one once you have one or two transformations.

2637
03:57:12,730 --> 03:57:13,730
Absolutely.

2638
03:57:14,730 --> 03:57:24,730
On the drivechain you have to weigh the weight of your transaction versus all the activities.

2639
03:57:25,730 --> 03:57:26,730
You do.

2640
03:57:27,730 --> 03:57:33,730
But you know the thing is we don't really have any like we don't have reorgs on L1.

2641
03:57:34,730 --> 03:57:39,730
And even these chains that have like even something like Bitcoin SV or something.

2642
03:57:40,730 --> 03:57:44,730
There really there have been a few 51 percent attacks but there really are not.

2643
03:57:45,730 --> 03:57:52,730
On a given day like you know what I mean like would you actually bet if someone makes a Bitcoin SV transaction.

2644
03:57:53,730 --> 03:57:59,730
You get kind of like and you are going to like buy insurance on it or sell insurance on it or something.

2645
03:58:00,730 --> 03:58:06,730
You're going to say like well what are the odds that it what are the odds that this is actually fine with just one confirmation.

2646
03:58:07,730 --> 03:58:11,730
In practice it kind of doesn't seem to be an issue now.

2647
03:58:12,730 --> 03:58:18,730
But you know if it is then people will wait for more confirmations and they will tend to only use.

2648
03:58:19,730 --> 03:58:26,730
Sidechains that have lots and lots of other users on them paying fees or this whole idea will collapse and not work.

2649
03:58:27,730 --> 03:58:28,730
But that's really true of everything you know.

2650
03:58:29,730 --> 03:58:35,730
It's a similar thing with sort of something similar is happening in lightning now I think where people are increasing.

2651
03:58:36,730 --> 03:58:37,730
The fees have been going up and up.

2652
03:58:41,730 --> 03:58:45,730
To compensate people for running nodes and things.

2653
03:58:45,730 --> 03:58:46,730
I thought I saw.

2654
03:58:48,730 --> 03:58:50,730
Didn't I see Alex Bosworth tweeting about that yesterday.

2655
03:59:00,730 --> 03:59:01,730
Thanks for my answer.

2656
03:59:03,730 --> 03:59:04,730
Keep thinking about it.

2657
03:59:05,730 --> 03:59:06,730
Keep thinking about it.

2658
03:59:06,730 --> 03:59:07,730
Thanks a lot.

2659
03:59:07,730 --> 03:59:08,730
Bye.

2660
03:59:26,730 --> 03:59:33,730
I do have another question about the compression rate of a few months in 32 kilobytes in comparison to what the layer one provides.

2661
03:59:34,730 --> 03:59:45,730
And the other question also I'm sorry I did just as I said from the conversation that I previously had in another space I was more confused more than anything.

2662
03:59:46,730 --> 03:59:49,730
I'm assuming that I'm paying some fees when I'm transacting over here.

2663
03:59:50,730 --> 03:59:56,730
When am I paying those fees to and how are them fees being set up.

2664
03:59:57,730 --> 04:00:01,730
Because on layer one I know why I'm paying those fees for example.

2665
04:00:03,730 --> 04:00:06,730
So actually exactly the same more or less.

2666
04:00:07,730 --> 04:00:23,730
What happens is there's a sidechain L2 has its own block space and people are trying to optimize their when you pay a fee there it goes to a coin based transaction on L2.

2667
04:00:25,730 --> 04:00:29,730
So whoever finds the L2 block the drivechain block.

2668
04:00:29,730 --> 04:00:41,730
So if you're in whatever some different sidechain you're trying to find the block and whoever finds it will pay themselves the transaction fees exactly like with Bitcoin.

2669
04:00:42,730 --> 04:00:53,730
The issue is as I just explained or tried to explain whether or not a sidechain block meets its proof of work requirement is defined by something that happens on L1.

2670
04:00:54,730 --> 04:00:57,730
If you use merge mining which I think everyone will.

2671
04:00:57,730 --> 04:01:04,730
So if since that's the case it's the L1 miners who really will.

2672
04:01:05,730 --> 04:01:11,730
They are the gatekeepers and they as a result they will extract ninety nine point nine nine percent of this this value.

2673
04:01:12,730 --> 04:01:22,730
So they will either it will either be them who has the L2 coin base key that gets paid the L2 coins or in the case of blind merge mining.

2674
04:01:22,730 --> 04:01:28,730
There is a possibility of specialization of labor where someone runs a sidechain node.

2675
04:01:29,730 --> 04:01:40,730
They pay themselves the coin base pay themselves the fee revenue to the coin base and in return for finding that block.

2676
04:01:41,730 --> 04:01:47,730
They they broadcast a message on L1 and they say please include this find this.

2677
04:01:48,730 --> 04:01:49,730
This is the block I want you to find.

2678
04:01:50,730 --> 04:01:51,730
It has this hash.

2679
04:01:52,730 --> 04:01:56,730
If you find it I will pay you on L1 this amount.

2680
04:01:57,730 --> 04:02:08,730
So ultimately all money goes to the miners and but how it gets there is depends on whether or not the miners want to run a sidechain node.

2681
04:02:08,730 --> 04:02:10,730
If they do then they can collect it over there.

2682
04:02:11,730 --> 04:02:13,730
If they don't then they can collect on L1.

2683
04:02:14,730 --> 04:02:25,730
But what literally happens on the drivechain is that it has its own blocks and it has its own fees and those fees are all paid to in the coin base transaction just like in Bitcoin.

2684
04:02:26,730 --> 04:02:33,730
It's paid in the first transaction and it is paid to whoever finds the block it can be paid to anyone.

2685
04:02:34,730 --> 04:02:38,730
So everyone pays them to themselves and they all compete to try to find the block.

2686
04:02:39,730 --> 04:02:40,730
So I hope that makes some sense.

2687
04:02:45,730 --> 04:02:46,730
Kinda.

2688
04:02:47,730 --> 04:02:58,730
I'm not sure if this will give the opportunity for any bad actor to give this set of rules to someone else and maybe get scammed.

2689
04:02:58,730 --> 04:03:04,730
You did explain this earlier through as I said choosing a certain model of security.

2690
04:03:07,730 --> 04:03:12,730
Well this this part is unrelated to what is happening on the chain.

2691
04:03:13,730 --> 04:03:14,730
You know what I mean.

2692
04:03:15,730 --> 04:03:22,730
Like this is just saying there's only a certain amount of block space no matter what happens on the.

2693
04:03:23,730 --> 04:03:33,730
Like even if the sidechain has no block size limit they will run out of RAM on their computer.

2694
04:03:34,730 --> 04:03:42,730
So there's some limit and that limit you know you have to gate who is in the block and who is not.

2695
04:03:43,730 --> 04:03:44,730
And.

2696
04:03:46,730 --> 04:03:51,730
Or I suppose you could try to just append every single transaction you could.

2697
04:03:52,730 --> 04:03:53,730
But if nothing pays any fee.

2698
04:03:54,730 --> 04:04:06,730
You see I have like an economic view of it basically where it's like there's a demand curve for this service for the block space.

2699
04:04:06,730 --> 04:04:07,730
And you.

2700
04:04:08,730 --> 04:04:14,730
You either get a few you either make a few sales at a high margin or you make many sales at a low margin.

2701
04:04:15,730 --> 04:04:17,730
You charge 10 cents per transaction and you have.

2702
04:04:19,730 --> 04:04:20,730
Lots of transactions.

2703
04:04:21,730 --> 04:04:24,730
Or you charge a ten dollars per transaction and you have very few.

2704
04:04:25,730 --> 04:04:26,730
Transactions.

2705
04:04:27,730 --> 04:04:33,730
So people who are assembling the next block they do that and they try to maximize their.

2706
04:04:34,730 --> 04:04:37,730
Revenues and then after they do that.

2707
04:04:40,730 --> 04:04:41,730
They.

2708
04:04:42,730 --> 04:04:50,730
That's how they that's how they build the proto block and then as I tried to explain what it is that finds the block is.

2709
04:04:51,730 --> 04:04:54,730
A payment made a code inserted in L1.

2710
04:04:54,730 --> 04:04:56,730
Coinbase by the miners.

2711
04:04:57,730 --> 04:05:01,730
So it is the L1 miners who really find all the blocks.

2712
04:05:02,730 --> 04:05:04,730
Even though they don't need to run a node to do so.

2713
04:05:06,730 --> 04:05:09,730
I don't need to run any node really but they definitely don't need to run the L2 node.

2714
04:05:14,730 --> 04:05:16,730
Unfortunately I have to go I do apologize.

2715
04:05:17,730 --> 04:05:19,730
Thank you very much for answering my questions.

2716
04:05:20,730 --> 04:05:25,730
There was the other question in regards to the compression rate of three months of data into 32 kilobytes.

2717
04:05:26,730 --> 04:05:31,730
And the reasoning behind that if this is transparent or not.

2718
04:05:33,730 --> 04:05:35,730
I'll go back to listener because I'm going to drive so thank you.

2719
04:05:36,730 --> 04:05:37,730
Okay great.

2720
04:05:38,730 --> 04:05:39,730
Yeah the.

2721
04:05:39,730 --> 04:05:43,730
All that's happening with that whole three months to 32 megabytes thing.

2722
04:05:44,730 --> 04:05:46,730
What that is referring to is.

2723
04:05:47,730 --> 04:05:53,730
What basically is going on there is the sidechain is keeping track of all of the outstanding activity.

2724
04:05:54,730 --> 04:05:55,730
Which is the three months of activity.

2725
04:05:56,730 --> 04:05:59,730
And it's going to summarize for L1.

2726
04:06:00,730 --> 04:06:04,730
The only parts of it that are relevant to L1 which is the people who want to withdraw.

2727
04:06:05,730 --> 04:06:07,730
And it is going to queue up all those withdraws.

2728
04:06:08,730 --> 04:06:13,730
And it will then make the L2 blockchain will construct.

2729
04:06:13,730 --> 04:06:16,730
The L2 blockchain will construct all by itself.

2730
04:06:18,730 --> 04:06:20,730
The transaction that would pay all those people out.

2731
04:06:22,730 --> 04:06:23,730
And the basically.

2732
04:06:25,730 --> 04:06:26,730
Some details aside.

2733
04:06:27,730 --> 04:06:31,730
The transaction ID of that transaction that is the 32 bytes.

2734
04:06:32,730 --> 04:06:33,730
So it is just saying.

2735
04:06:34,730 --> 04:06:35,730
This is the withdrawal.

2736
04:06:36,730 --> 04:06:37,730
That catches us up.

2737
04:06:38,730 --> 04:06:41,730
You know it says we've been running this sidechain for the last five years.

2738
04:06:41,730 --> 04:06:43,730
But we had a withdrawal six months ago.

2739
04:06:45,730 --> 04:06:46,730
We had a withdrawal three months ago.

2740
04:06:47,730 --> 04:06:51,730
And of everything that has happened between three months ago and today.

2741
04:06:52,730 --> 04:06:54,730
This is the withdrawal on L1.

2742
04:06:54,730 --> 04:06:55,730
That would.

2743
04:06:55,730 --> 04:06:57,730
That would catch us all up.

2744
04:06:58,730 --> 04:06:59,730
So.

2745
04:07:01,730 --> 04:07:03,730
So the L2 node can do that freely.

2746
04:07:04,730 --> 04:07:07,730
Every single person's L2 node every single person sidechain node.

2747
04:07:08,730 --> 04:07:11,730
Will calculate that and they will all get exactly the same answer.

2748
04:07:13,730 --> 04:07:15,730
And so that is the hash that must.

2749
04:07:16,730 --> 04:07:18,730
Traverse the BIP300.

2750
04:07:19,730 --> 04:07:20,730
Process.

2751
04:07:20,730 --> 04:07:22,730
In order to release the funds.

2752
04:07:37,730 --> 04:07:38,730
So yeah.

2753
04:07:39,730 --> 04:07:40,730
So this is cool.

2754
04:07:40,730 --> 04:07:41,730
We got some more questions and that was good.

2755
04:07:43,730 --> 04:07:44,730
That's always great.

2756
04:07:44,730 --> 04:07:46,730
And now this is a four hours.

2757
04:07:46,730 --> 04:07:47,730
So I think.

2758
04:07:49,730 --> 04:07:50,730
It's been going pretty well.

2759
04:07:53,730 --> 04:07:55,730
We've got some great names.

2760
04:07:56,730 --> 04:07:57,730
We have.

2761
04:07:58,730 --> 04:07:59,730
Boat face.

2762
04:07:59,730 --> 04:08:00,730
In the audience.

2763
04:08:03,730 --> 04:08:05,730
For those of you who don't know.

2764
04:08:06,730 --> 04:08:08,730
The US Army or the Navy, I suppose.

2765
04:08:10,730 --> 04:08:14,730
They allowed democracy to pick the name of their ship.

2766
04:08:16,730 --> 04:08:17,730
New ship and.

2767
04:08:18,730 --> 04:08:19,730
Just Google it for what happened.

2768
04:08:19,730 --> 04:08:20,730
It's.

2769
04:08:21,730 --> 04:08:22,730
Classic Internet voting.

2770
04:08:25,730 --> 04:08:26,730
We have a cool guy.

2771
04:08:26,730 --> 04:08:27,730
Oh, this guy Zulu.

2772
04:08:27,730 --> 04:08:28,730
He has a very cool.

2773
04:08:29,730 --> 04:08:31,730
It's a very dramatic image.

2774
04:08:35,730 --> 04:08:36,730
Anyway, come on up.

2775
04:08:36,730 --> 04:08:37,730
If you want to ask any questions.

2776
04:08:39,730 --> 04:08:40,730
Get myself a glass of water.

2777
04:08:48,730 --> 04:08:49,730
But.

2778
04:08:50,730 --> 04:08:51,730
No one has any questions.

2779
04:08:53,730 --> 04:08:54,730
The space will have to come to an end.

2780
04:09:06,730 --> 04:09:07,730
Let's see.

2781
04:09:09,730 --> 04:09:10,730
Hmm.

2782
04:09:10,730 --> 04:09:11,730
Doesn't seem to be anyone.

2783
04:09:11,730 --> 04:09:12,730
So maybe I don't know.

2784
04:09:12,730 --> 04:09:13,730
It's pretty good space.

2785
04:09:13,730 --> 04:09:14,730
Honestly.

2786
04:09:14,730 --> 04:09:15,730
Four hours is not bad.

2787
04:09:21,730 --> 04:09:23,730
So maybe we should end it there.

2788
04:09:25,730 --> 04:09:26,730
I think it was a pretty good space.

2789
04:09:29,730 --> 04:09:30,730
I don't know.

2790
04:09:31,730 --> 04:09:32,730
I think it was a pretty good space.

2791
04:09:36,730 --> 04:09:37,730
Well.

2792
04:10:01,730 --> 04:10:02,730
Cool.

2793
04:10:02,730 --> 04:10:03,730
OK.

2794
04:10:03,730 --> 04:10:04,730
Well, maybe we should end it there then.

2795
04:10:08,730 --> 04:10:09,730
So, hey, thanks, everyone.

2796
04:10:12,730 --> 04:10:13,730
Thank you.

2797
04:10:13,730 --> 04:10:14,730
Have a good evening.

2798
04:10:14,730 --> 04:10:15,730
Bye bye.