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The podcast is produced by the U.S. Embassy in the Philippines.

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The podcast is produced by the U.S. Embassy in the Philippines.

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The podcast is produced by the U.S. Embassy in the Philippines.

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Hello, there, and welcome to the Bitcoin Takeover podcast.

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This is Season 16, Episode 52, which might as well be Episode 300.

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There's some chatter or music in the background, Paul.

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I don't know exactly what's happening.

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This is your thing, I thought.

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Oh, you're listening to the stream. Okay.

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But there's feedback.

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That's what happens when you invite someone who actually tunes in and listens to the
show.

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He also wants to listen to himself.

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Hello, welcome to the Bitcoin Takeover podcast.

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This is Season 16.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And I gotta say, Paul, this is your second time this season joining the show.

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And the first time around you spoke about Roger Ver's situation

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and why you want to throw your hat in the ring and defend him

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and talk about what Bitcoin used to be like in 2013 and 2014.

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Now you've been hard at work.

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We've had this ongoing war on Bitcoin.

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It's like a civil war between Bitcoin Core v30, which increased the size of
Upperturn,

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and the nuts people who seem to have lost their mind.

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I was going to ask, what do you think about all that?

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But you've said it already.

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It's very annoying to the point where I don't want to participate in this.

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I agree. It's boring. It's so stupid.

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I can't believe how it's dragged on for this long.

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And I saw some tweets from Nick Szabo today.

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He has joined the idiot team.

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Yeah, but it's so obvious, right?

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Because you look at his profile, you look him up on whatever search engine you use,

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and you're going to see, okay, this guy works for Samson Mouse Company, which is Gen
3.

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I know.

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He's the quote-unquote chief scientist.

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I don't know why a company that tries to onboard nation-states' Bitcoin needs a
chief scientist.

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They're not building anything.

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Well, yeah, I think it's not—

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Maybe it'll be a great company in the future, but it's like, you know,

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the lowest bottom of the barrel.

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I mean, I don't know. Like, whatever. Are we going to turn this into a gossip hour?

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Yeah, Samson did all kinds of crazy stuff.

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He was, like, CEO of some other company while he was chief strategy officer at
Blockstream,

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and there was all kinds of, like, mysterious double-dealing and whatever.

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But who even cares about that?

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That's the core V30 of Bitcoin startup.

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Whatever. Like, who cares?

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It's a silly issue. The whole thing is a silly issue.

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Yeah, but all of these lawyers are basically joining right now, saying,

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well, you should be concerned. What if someone does this?

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Like, you're going to be legally—whatever.

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Well, you know, back in the day, we had Bitcoin Uncensored, and people would just
laugh all this off.

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Like, remember, Josh went on stage at, like, University of Miami or something.

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There's this huge room of people, and they were like,

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what about AML, like, anti-money laundering laws for Bitcoin?

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This was, like, in 2015 or something.

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And Josh goes, well, Bitcoin doesn't do AML. It does ML.

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And everyone laughed.

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You have the room to laugh.

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And then Chris, an American banker, you know, he told everyone he was—before he did
this Q&A,

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he said, I just have to let everyone know that—and he said this, and it wasn't even
true,

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but he's told everyone that he was a registered sex offender.

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That's not even true.

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So we used to have more of a sense of humor, is my point.

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And we used to just be like, well, this is inherently subversive.

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This is—Eric Voskow has this about his axiom of resistance, which is, like,
resistance money.

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This idea that if it's white, if it's 100 percent, if we ignore the black market and
the gray market,

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we ignore cash, we ignore privacy, we ignore user, and we just go—we focus
completely on where people are going to have,

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like—they could use WeChat Pay or Venmo or Zelle.

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Then Bitcoin doesn't really have a comparative advantage in the proof-of-work
blockchain structure.

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It doesn't really do anything.

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So people used to accept all this.

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Now we've gone down the suit coin or Michael Saylor route, the ETF route, and now
people have to care about—

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and everyone wants to carve out.

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All the lawyers want their pound of flesh, and they say, what about such-and-such
regulation that I helped write or whatever?

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So it's a sad consequence of—it's also inherently—there's a media dimension to it,
which is, like, no one wants—

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some things are harder to defend.

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Like, if you defend—this happened with Ron Paul and the drug legalization, where Ron
Paul fought for legalization of marijuana,

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which was—it's now legal in many places, or it's just not—either formally
decriminalized or it's not enforced in the United States.

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But it used to be possession of—just mere possession of marijuana for your own
personal use, you would be thrown in prison.

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And if you—three times, you could be in prison for a long time.

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I don't know how long, but years and years.

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I don't know.

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If someone were to look it up, you'd be shocked of what is now considered to be not
a crime at all.

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And in fact, there was a Canadian snowboarder who lost his Olympic medal or
something because he had been smoking marijuana.

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But this was only a few years before it became legal in the United States.

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And what I'm trying to get, though, is that Ron Paul fought for this issue that now
we all accept.

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But at the time, everyone would be like, oh, who are your supporters?

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Oh, a bunch of pothead idiots.

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So if you try to defend something—this was similarly done with gay marriage, where
people would make fun—this is back—it's kind of unthinkable now.

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But it was—everyone who's old enough in America remembers that 2020 versus 2010 was
a very different story.

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And anyone who supported gay rights would be made fun of.

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And they'd say, oh, those people must be gay or whatever.

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So that would be—that would be—

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So this is a type of—I bring this up because the type of argument in Bitcoin that is
like, oh, you want to be pro-freedom, pro-sovereignty,

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it kind of makes you look like you're doing something shady, money laundering, tax
evasion, whatever, even if you're not at all.

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But on the other hand, there's a dimension of are we being gullible or are we
being—like, why do some countries have freedom and others don't?

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Partly it's because the laws and institutions are written a certain way, but it's
also partly because the people have a certain attitude towards the government.

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In the United States, there's a different attitude towards the government than in
Russia, where people have been.

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And you experienced some of this firsthand, where the people in a communist country
are afraid of making fun of the government,

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whereas in a more liberal country, it is more common to have, whatever, The Daily
Show or something, people making fun of the president.

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There was an old Soviet joke. None of this has anything—I should explain that.

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I'm like a little sick and Vlad is like jet lagged, so I don't think—we're going to
try to keep this one just like short and fun.

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We won't really be able to do the demo.

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Now I'm really rambling on, but because the demo has like, you know, you got to sync
the blockchain for 10 minutes or whatever.

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But anyone who wants, please go. You'd be helping out a lot.

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Go to LayerTwoLabs.com slash download and check it out.

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It should theoretically work. We're currently at the—let me give a little speech
about the software.

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We're currently kind of at the click button UX, which is a good UX.

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So you don't necessarily need—for the lovely Linux users who are the best, we have a
copy and paste thing for you to put in the terminal to install.

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But after that, you should just be clicking buttons.

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You may need to click some restart, refresh buttons.

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You may need to like close it and reopen.

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But mostly that's where we are.

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And if you find anything unexpected, stuff doesn't look good.

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We're trying to make it so that it's always responsive.

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It always tells you when something's loading or whatever.

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And we are currently—our second point is we're currently at the node runner level.

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So we don't have like SPV, like an easy phone app that like looks very slick.

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That's intentional for now based on priorities.

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So you currently have to sync the whole chain.

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And so you—it just takes like a little while.

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Now we have two networks that are very different.

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One is the Signet, which is we just sign a block every 60 seconds.

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Much easier to test.

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Much easier to sync.

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It should sync in like, I don't know, 10 minutes or so.

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Depends on your internet connection.

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And the other one is I think we're calling it Forknet now.

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This is actual—takes all real 930,000 blocks from Bitcoin that are full of
transactions.

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And then forks into our network.

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And then it will try to replay all the transactions that are really on the real.

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So even after the fork point, it should be full.

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That, of course, takes much longer because we sync with Bitcoin Core and not with
Eric Bosco's superior LitBitcoin.

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So that's the opening of my speech.

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I got more speech than I'll say, but does this make sense so far?

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It does.

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And also one for the record to include the fact that you had one of the best tweets
about these flame wars, about filters and censorship.

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When you said that you can turn every transaction into a JPEG.

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Yeah.

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You can just copy the text of the transaction, like the ID, the hash, whatever it is
that you want.

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You go to a website which turns text into images and you get beautiful JPEGs.

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Right.

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It's literally the transactions are encoded in the Bitcoin blockchain as serialized
hex.

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But it's a property of all information.

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I mean, first of all, the hex translates directly to JPEG, and that's what I did.

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You just lay out the hex in six byte chunks and the JPEG automatically will
interpret that as those are red, green, blue values.

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And so every Bitcoin transaction is kind of like a Mysticno Pokemon where it's like
a weird rectangle.

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But yeah, the whole thing is quite silly.

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I want to explain, though, a little bit more about our software, which it would be
cool to do.

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I think every live software demo is a big mistake because people have different
setups and it's boring, I think, to wait for certain things.

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And I just think it's not.

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Maybe we'll put out like a video.

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One thing I do like is when you put out like a little video, you can just say, this
is what you're supposed to see.

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It's nice and fast.

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That's, you know, totally important parts.

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The software that we download is called Bit Window.

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And I would like to explain a couple of things.

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I do a lot of things differently that are just way better than what other people are
doing.

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So first of all, I have Bit Window versus something like Bitcoin Knots.

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And then I have the BIP300 Activator versus like a pull request to Bitcoin Core.

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So if I could just ask you to imagine Bit Window is like the thing that you would
look at.

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It's like a thing you open.

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And Bit Window will download other stuff.

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Sometimes it will be stuff that's behind the scenes.

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And sometimes it will be other stuff for you to look at.

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But Bit Window is like where you start out.

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And it's a little bit like a Steam game launcher.

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It downloads things for you and does whatever you want.

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And this is it will have one of the things it will download is actual Bitcoin Core.

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We have actually patched it for, you know, but the patches do not.

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They're not like they're just for our convenience and they are not fundamental.

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They are one of the patches, by the way, that we did in our little patch was to get
rid of the upper turn limit.

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So we were ahead of all of that.

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And I knew even last year the upper turn limit is irrational.

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It's being circumvented by slipstream and it will just be removed because it doesn't
do anything.

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There's no reason for it to be there.

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But, of course, then there's the controversy of this.

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But we did that was one of the so I think the other things that I have patched are
also like either stuff that's not important or another patch.

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For example, this is totally irrelevant.

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But the signet feature in Bitcoin, it has some kind of problem.

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If you want to change the signet time from 10 minutes to something else.

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So you need like a special patch for that.

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There's no reason why a Bitcoin core will merge that at some point because it's
trivial.

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So that will be an upper turn category. I'm sure it'll be a whole conference, a
whole summer of controversy about that.

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But anyway. What I'm getting at is a bit window. It will download stuff.

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We'll download Bitcoin core. It will download the BIP300 activator.

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If you want, it will download whichever L2s you want.

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We have a few of them, including the Zcash based privacy one and the thunder for
scaling.

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And it will download and launch those for you and those will open.

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So the advantage of bit window versus knots is knots is its own thing.

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Maintained by Luke and has its own like. It's like its own single piece of software,
but by making it modular and having windows only like a cosmetic displaying thing.

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So we don't touch Bitcoin core part. So, of course, it could still there's still a
danger of you being told that you have received money when you haven't actually
been.

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Someone could hack, for example, bit window and say, oh, yeah, I sent you 200
Bitcoin.

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Give me millions of dollars. And it would show up so.

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But it's a very different thing, whereas, you know, we break it out into modular
pieces, it's much better.

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We just leave Bitcoin core where it is. We put it like in a little box and then the
window lets us improve the user experience and add all kinds of stuff to it.

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So we've added all kinds of things to it. There's like links to a faucet.

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This idea of coin news, which I think is going to be a lot of fun. We have all kinds
of cool tools in there.

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We have a cash calculator. We have a block explorer. So we have tons of stuff in
there.

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And that's much more fun because you can be more flexible with this thing that is
just a cosmetic front end.

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And it's very easy for anyone to just fork a window release different version
connects to the same Bitcoin core and you can change the colors or whatever you want
to do.

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So that's the whole bit window idea is much better than an alternative client. You
have like an alternative front end.

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And the second thing I have to explain is the activator is much better than waiting
around for Bitcoin core to do a soft fork, which they will never do again.

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A lot of people have thought that they will, but they don't. So it's taking too
long.

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And they you know, they just there is no way I think there's no known way to get a
soft fork into Bitcoin.

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If there is, we have a cat. Well, if there is a way, then I mean, I'd love to hear
from someone who knows what is that way.

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But I don't think there is a way anymore. So this is a way of doing the soft fork
without changing any lines of code in Bitcoin.

209
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:15,000
So I think both of these things are kind of like a huge leap forward if you compare
to what everyone else has been doing over the past year or so.

210
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:23,000
Like what what hasn't there been just tremendous stagnation and there's just been
like nothing. Nothing has been happening.

211
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:31,000
I was going to mention this because we're so close to getting CTV, which admittedly
could enable a lot of cool stuff.

212
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:38,000
And then suddenly the conversation changed to, well, we should never get any upgrade
to Bitcoin until we fix the filters.

213
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:50,000
That was what happened with Luke's camp and the marketers that he hired. I think my
camera got stopped by my cat.

214
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:59,000
Anyway, I was going to mention that Kyle Torpe is in the chat. He's one of the
oldest journalists in the game.

215
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:07,000
He said, isn't Bitcoin going to die now, though? Seems serious.

216
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:14,000
I think it will eventually die if it if the complacency and stasis takes it so far.

217
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:23,000
I did I did write a post called The Derangements of Bitcoin. And I encourage
everyone to check it out.

218
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:31,000
And I just have a giant list of like stupid things that we're doing.

219
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:38,000
And these are stupid things that everyone believes the opposite of. So the first
one, number one on the list is lightning.

220
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:45,000
And it's still the biggest sacred cow of them all. And.

221
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:53,000
And but it's a terrible idea. And, you know, it's not when I say it's a terrible
idea, I just mean it's time for people to stop working on it and move on.

222
00:19:53,000 --> 00:20:00,000
It was a very good idea for its time. I still can't see you at all. So. Oh, there
you are.

223
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:11,000
OK, got you back. Yeah, I've been told that at TabConf, which happened last week,
you did this presentation about the Lightning Network.

224
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:19,000
And basically it had the largest attendance of all the presentations at the event.

225
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:31,000
We had the main stage and it was a packed room and the format was I would give it's
an hour and I would give a 10 minute talk on why I think lightning is a waste of
time.

226
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:42,000
And then 50 minutes for Michael Tidwell, the organizer, to pull up various people
for a rotating panel on stage.

227
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:48,000
And where, you know, we could hear from here, the other side for 50, five, zero
minutes.

228
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:55,000
So that's what I did. And the audience had all kinds of lightning, prominent
lightning.

229
00:20:55,000 --> 00:21:04,000
Developers, lightning, people working lightning companies, you know, Taz Dreiser was
two rows in front of me.

230
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:09,000
So for the record, that's one of the co-authors of the lightning white paper.

231
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:18,000
Right. And so we had all these people there and, you know, I'm eagerly awaiting the
release of the recording.

232
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:28,000
But a lot of people were just saying that they agreed with what I had to say or they
agreed with most of it, except for one thing or.

233
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:35,000
So, of course, it'd be much better to post that when it when it was professionally
recorded.

234
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:40,000
So hopefully we get the.

235
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:44,000
Like a mixed version because there's a lot of microphones and stuff, so.

236
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:50,000
I'm sure that's not that easy. And then, of course, you do a conference and then
there's like a trillion videos.

237
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,000
So it takes a little while for them to.

238
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,000
Post them, I assume that's usually how it goes.

239
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:01,000
Usually that's how the live stream of Tabcom, I guess.

240
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,000
They sort of gave up on that.

241
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:13,000
One of them. Yeah, I think one of the stages is like if you care a lot about your
privacy, it's like forbidden to film in there.

242
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:17,000
But I was on the main stage and the main stage was packed.

243
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:24,000
And yeah, I didn't really hear anyone say no one said like you're completely 100%
wrong about everything you said.

244
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:31,000
What people would say was stuff like, well, lightning wasn't what we thought, but
maybe it'll be interoperability later.

245
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,000
Whatever, like it's like.

246
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:46,000
So, but I replied to everything. So I do a solid 50 minute battle against the whole
room. So I think it is entertaining. I landed a few jokes.

247
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:52,000
So. We'll see.

248
00:22:52,000 --> 00:23:12,000
You also wrote an article which is called the Lightning Network Black Bill, and I
think you sort of maintain it in the sense that whenever there is a horrible piece
of news about something like users losing funds or one of these services failing
miserably, you sort of add the link to your database.

249
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:22,000
I have been doing that. I kind of stopped a little recently, but there's a link to
some other people who have compilations, including there's the telegram group.

250
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:27,000
Lightning is a key.me such lightning fantasy or something and it's called
lightning's best moments.

251
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:37,000
And I don't maintain that one, but sometimes I send that one is just that is one
where it's like a bulletin board where it's just a collection of.

252
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:47,000
You know, like whatever, like hundreds of like funny tweets or complaints or
whatever, all these.

253
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:55,000
So yeah, that is what I did last week and that's I got sick from that trip, but it
was a lot of fun.

254
00:23:55,000 --> 00:24:09,000
It's also interesting that depending on who you're talking to, if you find yourself
at some conference in Europe, which maybe finds itself in the bubble, like the core
of the bubble, people are going to say, well, lightning works and it's so great.

255
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:16,000
Look at me. I'm paying with my Phoenix wallet or I have Zeus that's connected to my
home node over Tor.

256
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:21,000
And if you point out to the many issued, they're going to say, well, it's a skill
problem on your behalf.

257
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:30,000
Like you don't get how lightning works. And if you're smart, which you're not,
obviously, because lightning is the most wonderful invention ever.

258
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:37,000
And the one true scaling solution and everything else is a shit coin, then you would
know how to use it.

259
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:52,000
I only had 10 minutes in my talk, but I did hit on this point of, you know, the cult
just they just love lightning and they won't hear a word against it and this, this
is independent of how much they know about it.

260
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:59,000
So the people who have known nothing about it will show it. And also people, many of
the haters of lightning also know nothing about it.

261
00:25:00,016 --> 00:25:10,616
So, but it doesn't, it has nothing to do with the fact that the channels idea
doesn't work because you need L1 bytes to open the channels and refresh the
channels.

262
00:25:10,656 --> 00:25:18,296
We don't have enough space and the HTLCs expand the size of what you would have to
broadcast as L1.

263
00:25:18,296 --> 00:25:26,776
And so this is just, it's not going to work, but then people try to move the
goalposts and whatever, but it's better for people to watch the video because it's
one thing.

264
00:25:27,016 --> 00:25:38,616
Like imagine a situation where someone is telling you that lightning works, but then
I'm in a huge room at TapConf, which is like the best technical conference.

265
00:25:38,616 --> 00:25:47,896
I think, everyone's in the room and that's what, you know, that's how the
conversation is there.

266
00:25:48,336 --> 00:25:51,256
So the person that you'd be talking to, you know what I mean?

267
00:25:51,256 --> 00:26:01,456
Like, if you talk to someone like Alex Gladstein, who I did the debate with or
whatever, like Alex Gladstein doesn't even realize that he's like five or six tiers
below Tash Dreyja.

268
00:26:01,816 --> 00:26:09,256
And I'm like at the Tash Dreyja sort of tier, I mean, if I can be so bold as to say
something like that, but maybe I'm one beneath.

269
00:26:11,056 --> 00:26:13,096
But the point is like, you know what I mean?

270
00:26:13,096 --> 00:26:15,096
Like the person who's telling you, oh, lightning's great.

271
00:26:15,096 --> 00:26:15,696
I love lightning.

272
00:26:16,736 --> 00:26:19,376
They, you know, they don't know what they're talking about.

273
00:26:21,416 --> 00:26:28,656
Well, to be honest, Alex Gladstein is promoting Chami and eCash, which is something
that's on Custodial Lightning.

274
00:26:29,536 --> 00:26:35,816
They heard from someone who heard from Peter McCormack, who heard from Tash Dreyja,
you know what I mean?

275
00:26:35,816 --> 00:26:41,456
Like they're, they're like way outside the loop, the lightning shills.

276
00:26:41,456 --> 00:26:43,936
They don't, you know, they're far away from the center.

277
00:26:45,296 --> 00:26:46,616
But it's far deeper than this.

278
00:26:46,616 --> 00:26:49,216
It's not just being a fan of something.

279
00:26:49,256 --> 00:26:53,336
They actively give money to these projects with the Human Rights Foundation.

280
00:26:53,736 --> 00:27:01,496
They do that conference every year in Oslo where they virtue signal about empowering
the people living under authoritarian regimes.

281
00:27:03,616 --> 00:27:10,656
Yes, I think this is a very important thing to emphasize, which is a lot of people
think, oh, if we fund R&D, R&D is a good thing.

282
00:27:12,096 --> 00:27:18,376
The real world, especially if you're young, you don't appreciate how ecological the
world is.

283
00:27:18,856 --> 00:27:19,976
And what do I mean by that?

284
00:27:19,976 --> 00:27:21,576
It's not, the world's not additive.

285
00:27:22,416 --> 00:27:29,896
In other words, you could say something like, well, we have a world where you can go
on YouTube and watch whatever movie you want.

286
00:27:29,896 --> 00:27:33,976
And then you add TikTok to teenagers' phone.

287
00:27:35,376 --> 00:27:38,136
Additive would be like, it's just getting better and better.

288
00:27:39,176 --> 00:27:47,576
But really, the TikTok will change, you know, the person's media diet, you know,
permanently.

289
00:27:47,576 --> 00:27:49,496
And it would change the type of thing that they want to watch.

290
00:27:49,496 --> 00:27:57,976
And everything is an ecology of like, it's like, you know, like a pond and there's a
certain amount of algae and a certain amount of lily pads.

291
00:27:57,976 --> 00:28:03,856
And there's a certain amount of, you know, whatever, mosquitoes, a certain amount of
everything, frogs.

292
00:28:04,096 --> 00:28:07,976
So it's all in a delicate interacting balance.

293
00:28:08,696 --> 00:28:15,296
And even if you fund something, you say, I want to fund Bitcoin privacy, you could
very well be making Bitcoin privacy worse.

294
00:28:15,336 --> 00:28:18,176
Because maybe there's three ideas, A, B, and C.

295
00:28:19,336 --> 00:28:22,336
C is actually the best idea, but A gets all the funding.

296
00:28:22,896 --> 00:28:24,976
Well, this is actually discouraging to see.

297
00:28:25,736 --> 00:28:36,176
And I think it's an interesting point that actually at the end of the day, no amount
of money can defeat superior knowledge, actually.

298
00:28:36,536 --> 00:28:39,696
You need to have an idea of what to do first.

299
00:28:39,696 --> 00:28:49,536
And this whole VC world is trying very hard to take the best ideas in the world,
hopefully, and mainstream them.

300
00:28:49,896 --> 00:28:51,576
And it does that very imperfectly.

301
00:28:51,816 --> 00:28:57,576
But it's the idea is something like, we have all these ideas in the world.

302
00:28:57,576 --> 00:29:01,456
And how do we figure out which should get funding?

303
00:29:01,496 --> 00:29:03,376
Well, you need the idea to be good.

304
00:29:03,416 --> 00:29:03,896
You know what I mean?

305
00:29:03,896 --> 00:29:10,296
If you fund a bad idea, like the, what is it called, the Maginot Line in France,
they funded this idea.

306
00:29:11,456 --> 00:29:23,096
Maybe you can explain it better than I can, but France basically dug a giant
concrete trench between them and Germany and filled it with like machine guns and
stuff to stop the German invasion.

307
00:29:23,096 --> 00:29:37,296
But this didn't make any difference because Germany had the, you know, the
Blitzkrieg, had planes that flew over and it invaded through the Netherlands and
Belgium, et cetera.

308
00:29:37,696 --> 00:29:46,616
So it ended up not mattering, but, you know, it could be an expensive project and
you could fund it and you think I'm funding defense, but actually you're not funding
anything.

309
00:29:47,216 --> 00:29:48,496
You may be making defense worse.

310
00:29:48,536 --> 00:29:50,056
It may have been better if you did nothing at all.

311
00:29:50,736 --> 00:29:52,776
So the real world is a tricky place.

312
00:29:52,816 --> 00:29:54,536
And yeah, of course.

313
00:29:55,856 --> 00:30:10,296
I think a lot of the funding into Lightning has made Bitcoin worse unintentionally,
but of course, as we have a famous phrase in English, maybe you also have it about
the road to hell being paved with good intentions.

314
00:30:10,616 --> 00:30:13,216
So like a good intention is worth not very much.

315
00:30:16,536 --> 00:30:18,776
Yeah, I was going to ask you some questions.

316
00:30:18,776 --> 00:30:23,576
There's someone in the chat who's asking about the Drivechains activation on
Litecoin.

317
00:30:24,136 --> 00:30:26,416
That was part of the conversation at one point.

318
00:30:26,536 --> 00:30:30,256
They seem to want it much more this year than they did last year.

319
00:30:30,296 --> 00:30:33,736
There seems to be more of a consensus, but is it going anywhere?

320
00:30:33,856 --> 00:30:35,696
Is anything really happening?

321
00:30:36,416 --> 00:30:37,096
That's a good point.

322
00:30:37,336 --> 00:30:39,496
Let me explain what we have been doing.

323
00:30:39,496 --> 00:30:44,256
So we have been progressively increasing the realism of our tests.

324
00:30:44,416 --> 00:30:49,616
So at first we had just software that worked, which is already more than most people
have.

325
00:30:50,456 --> 00:30:54,096
And that's already more than Lightning can have for 8 billion people ever.

326
00:30:54,096 --> 00:31:00,056
So but what I mean by that is we turn it on on our own computer.

327
00:31:00,336 --> 00:31:03,776
You run it in reg test mode or something.

328
00:31:04,296 --> 00:31:05,816
It's just you and it just works.

329
00:31:06,176 --> 00:31:16,096
But then we progressed to having the Signet network is a common network that
everyone can join and has coins and has a faucet.

330
00:31:16,136 --> 00:31:18,336
The coins are all fake coins, don't have any value.

331
00:31:18,336 --> 00:31:33,616
But what we now have is, as I mentioned, we have the Forknet, which is extremely
realistic test of with lots and lots of transactions and the chaos of the real
Bitcoin blocks and the real Bitcoin network.

332
00:31:33,616 --> 00:31:37,016
And all these these blocks that are filled with.

333
00:31:38,016 --> 00:31:40,696
Wacky scripts, operator and whatever.

334
00:31:41,936 --> 00:31:44,976
So we that's currently where we are.

335
00:31:46,416 --> 00:31:51,336
I think the next good test would be to use the activator.

336
00:31:52,736 --> 00:31:59,696
To activate a BIP300 on test net for is my that's where I think the next.

337
00:32:00,976 --> 00:32:01,816
Dot would be.

338
00:32:02,816 --> 00:32:09,256
That would be a good test, and I think right after that, like coin would be the next
stop.

339
00:32:10,056 --> 00:32:23,016
I haven't put I didn't invent, as I've said many times, I didn't invent the 300 to
make like like coin the success or help like coin, like defeat Bitcoin and take over
as the super coin that has to do everything.

340
00:32:23,256 --> 00:32:28,696
And so I wasn't that's not what I had in mind, so I don't I don't focus on that.

341
00:32:28,696 --> 00:32:34,536
But nonetheless, I'm happy to help anyone who likes the idea and to do it.

342
00:32:34,856 --> 00:32:37,176
And it should have been.

343
00:32:37,176 --> 00:32:44,816
There is a like a little telegram chat where I have been trying to give instructions
like coin doesn't use up not five for anything.

344
00:32:44,816 --> 00:32:49,176
It also has ZMQ, so it should be able to do like all these things.

345
00:32:49,656 --> 00:32:50,656
We just need to.

346
00:32:52,576 --> 00:33:01,096
Line it up and turn it on and then see what breaks and then fix that and do that
until it stops breaking, so unlike coin.

347
00:33:02,456 --> 00:33:06,216
And so I think it's it's quite it's quite close and it has.

348
00:33:08,456 --> 00:33:17,296
In the situation, like what people are, it's very different than what people are
used to, so what you're used to is pull requests, debate, blah, blah, blah.

349
00:33:18,296 --> 00:33:22,976
Speedy trial, maybe miners activate this a few months later.

350
00:33:24,896 --> 00:33:26,536
With the activator, it's very different.

351
00:33:26,816 --> 00:33:28,856
The activator is just does it work?

352
00:33:28,856 --> 00:33:31,216
Yes, just 51 percent hash rate.

353
00:33:31,216 --> 00:33:33,656
Run it. They can start or stop running at any time.

354
00:33:34,736 --> 00:33:38,936
So this thing is a little bit more like you prepare, you prepare, you prepare and
then.

355
00:33:40,616 --> 00:33:41,696
Bang, it's just on.

356
00:33:42,336 --> 00:33:55,536
So this is a little bit more of a surprise attack type of a situation, so I think it
could it's definitely it's theoretically possible that someone could could post, you
know, tomorrow and say.

357
00:33:56,936 --> 00:34:07,656
I downloaded I looked at what Paul did with the 300 activator and window and I
hacked on it with AI overnight and now we can activate it on like coin.

358
00:34:08,216 --> 00:34:15,656
And then if the miners, the mining people who mine like going out to see.

359
00:34:17,856 --> 00:34:23,256
They could run it that day and then it could just be activated within less than 24
hours, so that's theoretically possible.

360
00:34:23,416 --> 00:34:28,216
So the bottleneck is it's a very different type of bottleneck than what people are
used to, because it's a separate thing.

361
00:34:28,216 --> 00:34:29,336
It doesn't interfere with what.

362
00:34:29,336 --> 00:34:33,656
The pull requests and the review process of like going.

363
00:34:35,376 --> 00:34:35,856
Or.

364
00:34:37,376 --> 00:34:41,376
Anything else they're doing over there, the window extension block, et cetera.

365
00:34:46,856 --> 00:34:54,616
Funny thought, but those coin is also merged mine with like coin and it's possible
for those coins also activate the 300.

366
00:34:54,616 --> 00:34:57,976
It is, and that would be much more memable.

367
00:34:59,176 --> 00:35:10,376
You could actually get the attention of Elon Musk, who has been talking about this
like four years ago, but in terms of on chain scaling, yes, side to doge.

368
00:35:12,376 --> 00:35:24,496
Or doge car could be like a dog with its head out the window of the car, you know
how they like to do that, I don't know, I think the first thing to activate
Drivechains is actually a bit more memable.

369
00:35:25,216 --> 00:35:26,896
Doge right through.

370
00:35:27,896 --> 00:35:34,176
Although they use the pre 300 activator version, there was a fork of Bitcoin 1699.

371
00:35:35,176 --> 00:35:45,976
And they basically like fork didn't like changed cosmetically the front, so but that
was that old version has a special place in my heart, so to speak, because it was
much.

372
00:35:47,296 --> 00:35:53,416
It was just more fun to just hack on Bitcoin core, although I knew that no one would
go for this, no one is going to want to download.

373
00:35:55,136 --> 00:36:05,416
Like something where it's like Bitcoin core, and I just made like a long list of
changes just for the fun of it, that looks very suspicious, it looks like a dozen
people run Bitcoin not today.

374
00:36:05,816 --> 00:36:15,416
That's my point is that those not people realize that not fans, the lay people, the
customers, I don't think they realize what a bad idea that is.

375
00:36:16,296 --> 00:36:17,096
It's not a good idea.

376
00:36:17,096 --> 00:36:26,256
But you're right that maybe I could have had a market with extremely unsophisticated
and foolish people.

377
00:36:27,096 --> 00:36:31,096
But yeah, maybe no one would care about it being, you know, 1699.

378
00:36:31,096 --> 00:36:34,736
And there's old security patches, CVS, and so forth.

379
00:36:34,736 --> 00:36:39,976
So that I knew that I was like, never gonna push that as the serious thing.

380
00:36:40,256 --> 00:36:43,256
But yeah, Skydoge, where I just did nothing.

381
00:36:43,256 --> 00:36:47,496
Skydoge is an altcoin that launched with my idea, and they had fun with it.

382
00:36:48,376 --> 00:36:49,336
That's what's important.

383
00:36:50,656 --> 00:36:55,496
I did think about this today that basically, you could do the same as Luke Dashjr.

384
00:36:55,896 --> 00:37:04,896
But you're much more ethical and more methodical in the way that the window is
better than not, because Bitwindow, it downloads the real Bitcoin core.

385
00:37:05,536 --> 00:37:08,216
And just kind of like keeps it in like a little box and like a little zone.

386
00:37:09,136 --> 00:37:11,176
And but yet you have, you can do all this stuff.

387
00:37:11,176 --> 00:37:14,896
And with Bitwindow, you could change if you wanted to change the relay policy, all
that is silly.

388
00:37:14,896 --> 00:37:27,056
Anyway, I can give you, I can give you like, my views on mining are completely
different than everyone's, but they're way better.

389
00:37:27,576 --> 00:37:36,776
So the whole neglect of pools is a mistake, because if you're not, first of all, you
have to bite the bullet on do you want pools or not?

390
00:37:36,896 --> 00:37:40,856
If you don't want pools, then there can only be like so many miners and they all
have to be big.

391
00:37:41,216 --> 00:37:42,976
So this is, that's a horrible idea.

392
00:37:43,376 --> 00:37:51,736
The pools are what save the small miners and make it easy for it lower the barrier
to entry, they increase the competition.

393
00:37:52,856 --> 00:37:55,336
And the question is, now that you have these pools, what do you do?

394
00:37:55,616 --> 00:37:57,216
Are you beholden to 15 pools?

395
00:37:57,656 --> 00:37:58,696
Well, the answer is very easy.

396
00:37:58,696 --> 00:38:01,936
You just watch the pools, you know, somebody monitoring the pools.

397
00:38:02,496 --> 00:38:10,136
And if, you know, enough of them misbehave, you just launch a new pool, or you just
have the other pools shape up as a result.

398
00:38:10,736 --> 00:38:21,176
If 100% of the hash rate, if all the pools are doing something wrong, you just
disconnect and start your own pool and you use the peer to peer network to advertise
it.

399
00:38:22,176 --> 00:38:41,056
And you will then attract the hashes because it's way easier to just point your hash
at a different pool than it is to do the reverse where the pool wants to acquire
like five extra hash worth of ASIC equipment and electrical.

400
00:38:41,176 --> 00:38:48,776
That's way harder than for the someone who already has that to just point it at a
different IP address on the internet.

401
00:38:48,776 --> 00:38:50,696
It's night and day.

402
00:38:52,016 --> 00:38:57,496
So, you know, there's no problem with there being pools and there's no problem with
there being, you know, 15.

403
00:38:57,976 --> 00:38:59,336
These are just mathematical.

404
00:38:59,536 --> 00:39:02,616
These are just equations related to the variance.

405
00:39:04,056 --> 00:39:05,256
And all that's nonsense.

406
00:39:05,696 --> 00:39:11,216
Everyone complaining about pools, everyone pushing Stratum V2, everyone pushing
Datum.

407
00:39:11,776 --> 00:39:13,096
Those are all bad ideas.

408
00:39:13,336 --> 00:39:14,696
They all make it worse.

409
00:39:14,816 --> 00:39:27,976
It's good for the pools to, one reason why we need few pools is a requirement and
it's superior is because the pools then can have a brand and the brand is like a
hostage that you can execute.

410
00:39:28,456 --> 00:39:37,376
You can say, do you better behave well, Luxor or whatever, Foundry, you know, or
we'll pull the trigger and your brand will be dead.

411
00:39:37,776 --> 00:39:42,016
But as long as you do the right thing, everyone will say, oh, yeah, you should use
Foundry.

412
00:39:42,016 --> 00:39:42,776
They're the biggest.

413
00:39:42,776 --> 00:39:43,496
They're really good.

414
00:39:43,496 --> 00:39:44,576
They have these features.

415
00:39:45,056 --> 00:39:47,336
And now you can eke out your little fee.

416
00:39:48,016 --> 00:39:55,496
So you charge a fee, tiny fee, which is what they all do, but they behave themselves
and that is the deal.

417
00:39:55,496 --> 00:39:57,536
And that's the game theory of the situation.

418
00:39:58,136 --> 00:40:02,216
It's a perfect equilibrium and there's no reason for anyone to worry about it at
all.

419
00:40:02,736 --> 00:40:06,616
We don't want a situation that what Luke wants is actually the bad outcome.

420
00:40:06,656 --> 00:40:14,896
He wants like a kind of a communist garden where no one is, no one is accountable.

421
00:40:15,336 --> 00:40:18,416
So he wants more representation, but worse accountability.

422
00:40:18,496 --> 00:40:19,816
The brand is accountable.

423
00:40:21,376 --> 00:40:29,176
They say, oh, anything that threatens the brand, Mike Pollier at Foundry is going to
be on top of it to kick it out.

424
00:40:29,896 --> 00:40:46,656
So anything inaction, a bad action, laziness, complacency, anything that is bad
about the pool, they will fix it because this is how they get their money by
maintaining the brand.

425
00:40:46,856 --> 00:40:50,616
But of course, you can't have a brand if there's like 10,000 miners.

426
00:40:53,296 --> 00:40:55,576
So the whole thing is not, it's all nonsense.

427
00:40:55,616 --> 00:40:57,136
Everyone's beliefs on mining are nonsense.

428
00:40:57,136 --> 00:41:08,376
So what this also means though, that everyone's beliefs on the transaction relay are
also nonsense, because if you actually live in the world that I would prefer where
you have 15 pools, then everyone would just submit.

429
00:41:08,416 --> 00:41:17,536
They either submit to the pool directly or they submit to some kind of like
remailer, some Adam back remailer thing to like, so, cause they don't want to.

430
00:41:19,136 --> 00:41:24,136
And they'll just say, I got this transaction from someone else and they'll give it
to a third party.

431
00:41:24,136 --> 00:41:25,976
And then that person will forward it to the mine.

432
00:41:25,976 --> 00:41:30,496
The miners will double those up because each of those transactions is worth the fee
revenue.

433
00:41:31,576 --> 00:41:44,456
So the whole thing is absurd and everyone, you know, I just disagree with everyone
that everyone is just as terrible ideas, no offense to them, but Luke's ideas are
even worse than the core ideas.

434
00:41:44,456 --> 00:41:49,136
So in this particular issue, everyone is slowly starting to realize that, I think.

435
00:41:49,136 --> 00:41:55,056
And that's also why they have resorted to this emotional manipulation and
essentially blackmail.

436
00:41:55,136 --> 00:41:58,776
And essentially it's basically a coercive type argument.

437
00:41:58,776 --> 00:42:12,016
Like we will associate you with these horrible words, you know, and concepts will
associate with you or will imply that you, as I was saying with Ron Paul earlier
with the use fighting for drug legalization.

438
00:42:13,336 --> 00:42:17,656
We'll associate you with this unless you just drop the issue.

439
00:42:17,976 --> 00:42:24,536
So they extract, they claim a special privilege and they extract it like at gunpoint
and by force, maybe not literally.

440
00:42:24,576 --> 00:42:33,136
But so, yeah, and then that's because they have terrible arguments and they know
they're I think they know they are losing.

441
00:42:33,176 --> 00:42:36,136
Remember, the tangible claim made by Luke was that.

442
00:42:37,816 --> 00:42:40,496
V30 will come out and then Bitcoin will be destroyed, so.

443
00:42:42,816 --> 00:42:49,896
Where, you know, as I said when I was interviewed by Pete Rizzo, like if there was a
prediction market on that, we know that it would be like.

444
00:42:49,936 --> 00:43:10,416
How likely is I mean, essentially, there is, because the market price of Bitcoin is
the likelihood that it will be destroyed if you just divide it by what it was before
a certain event was announced to see what I mean, we should be crashing like ninety
nine percent towards zero dollars for a coin, but of course we're not so because
it's nonsense, the whole thing's ridiculous, obviously.

445
00:43:11,416 --> 00:43:25,416
Yeah, but where I was hinting at is that basically you also raised funding to start
a company and build the project that you always wanted to, just like Luke, but the
approaches that you have chosen are very different.

446
00:43:25,416 --> 00:43:34,656
What he did was to surround himself with very toxic, but ultimately viral marketers.

447
00:43:34,976 --> 00:43:42,296
Your approach was to just poke fun at Bitcoin Core and basically have memes on the
LayerTwo Labs page.

448
00:43:42,296 --> 00:43:51,136
But I would argue that they're pretty so sometimes they're borderline cringe, but
most of the times they're tasteful.

449
00:43:51,576 --> 00:44:01,496
And I do appreciate, especially, for example, when there was the script reading with
the two Brazilian models of the conversation between Luke Dashjr and Pierre
Rochard.

450
00:44:01,736 --> 00:44:02,976
That was a masterpiece.

451
00:44:03,616 --> 00:44:05,216
Yeah, I'm glad you enjoyed that.

452
00:44:05,216 --> 00:44:09,016
I was thinking kind of like, well, everyone's taking themselves too seriously.

453
00:44:09,016 --> 00:44:10,416
So how can we just like.

454
00:44:11,536 --> 00:44:12,536
Shine a light on.

455
00:44:13,656 --> 00:44:15,856
How silly this is, and I thought that would be.

456
00:44:16,816 --> 00:44:17,456
That would be fun.

457
00:44:18,416 --> 00:44:24,856
Our marketing guy is afraid to do anything else because.

458
00:44:26,256 --> 00:44:27,696
He liked that one so much.

459
00:44:28,696 --> 00:44:32,016
So I was like, we gotta do something else and he's like, no, I.

460
00:44:33,936 --> 00:44:35,776
Can't try again unless.

461
00:44:36,776 --> 00:44:38,816
I know it'll be good so.

462
00:44:39,936 --> 00:44:46,896
That's a mistake, but whatever we'll get on that we'll get on that and do another
funny thing very soon.

463
00:44:48,416 --> 00:44:54,616
Yeah, but it's funny while Luke chooses desperation and kind of like, well, it's
kind of weird.

464
00:44:54,616 --> 00:44:56,336
I guess no one can tell from the outside.

465
00:44:56,336 --> 00:44:57,776
Maybe it looks exactly the same.

466
00:44:57,816 --> 00:44:59,656
It's kind of like just no one knows what to do.

467
00:44:59,656 --> 00:45:01,296
And these are all like fake businesses or something.

468
00:45:01,536 --> 00:45:02,616
I don't think that's the case.

469
00:45:03,976 --> 00:45:08,616
Well, Luke is a very interesting guy because he is very smart.

470
00:45:08,776 --> 00:45:10,056
He has a lot of knowledge.

471
00:45:10,696 --> 00:45:12,496
He's an expert on Bitcoin.

472
00:45:13,936 --> 00:45:16,696
I consider myself to also be an expert on Bitcoin liar.

473
00:45:17,656 --> 00:45:23,136
And yeah, and then he has this certainty.

474
00:45:25,016 --> 00:45:29,176
And yeah, well, this is what happens.

475
00:45:31,056 --> 00:45:38,296
You know, a scientific worldview is like plagued with doubt all the time and the
religious worldview, everything's just black and white.

476
00:45:38,896 --> 00:45:42,296
And it's an easier way to live with certainty, right?

477
00:45:42,376 --> 00:45:43,736
It's not doubt.

478
00:45:43,736 --> 00:45:46,616
You always think that, you know, and there's an answer to everything.

479
00:45:47,976 --> 00:45:49,376
And a lot of people prefer it.

480
00:45:49,376 --> 00:45:54,856
A lot of people would rather just I mean, this does describe there are, you know.

481
00:45:56,376 --> 00:46:01,736
It's hard to list them all, but like, you know, some people really want to follow a
leader.

482
00:46:02,216 --> 00:46:07,776
I talked to someone who back in the Barack Obama era when he was first running for
office and.

483
00:46:09,216 --> 00:46:13,376
My friend's mother, and she was like, I just really want to believe in him so much.

484
00:46:14,296 --> 00:46:16,016
And I was like, OK.

485
00:46:16,816 --> 00:46:22,856
So people don't want I think the burden of responsibility falls heavily on people, a
lot of people, they don't want to be blamed.

486
00:46:22,896 --> 00:46:24,136
They don't want to be responsible.

487
00:46:24,656 --> 00:46:28,336
And and so they prefer to just outsource it to someone else.

488
00:46:28,456 --> 00:46:33,096
So like a book or like an ideology, they don't want to figure it out themselves.

489
00:46:33,296 --> 00:46:36,216
And I think this may be a very rational thing.

490
00:46:36,216 --> 00:46:39,456
I mean, if you think about it, if you believe that something like IQ is real.

491
00:46:40,416 --> 00:46:45,936
And then there's all these people who are like really, really smart and you are not
quite

492
00:46:45,936 --> 00:46:49,776
as smart as them. Well, maybe it is too difficult for you to actually decide.

493
00:46:50,536 --> 00:46:54,576
Every issue that comes across the table, am I going to form my own opinion on this?

494
00:46:54,576 --> 00:46:57,736
Maybe I'll just maybe I'll just pick someone and I'll just defer to them.

495
00:46:58,776 --> 00:47:00,736
Well, you don't have to attack me like that, Paul.

496
00:47:02,576 --> 00:47:08,536
Well, this is another phenomenon about what experts versus elites.

497
00:47:08,536 --> 00:47:12,416
So the experts are the people who actually know, but the elites are who everyone
listens to.

498
00:47:12,856 --> 00:47:16,816
And the question is, why are these two groups of people so different all the time?

499
00:47:17,056 --> 00:47:21,496
And often there is like this show and Bitcoin Uncensored, I think are both examples
of

500
00:47:21,976 --> 00:47:27,816
evading the elite world and going to the real expert world.

501
00:47:28,856 --> 00:47:32,936
But most people want to have Bill Maher give, you know, he's a comedian in the
United

502
00:47:32,936 --> 00:47:34,216
States and has a TV show.

503
00:47:34,776 --> 00:47:37,976
He's got to give his opinion on everything, even though there's no way he could be
an

504
00:47:37,976 --> 00:47:45,536
expert on. You know, Russia and Ukraine, Israel versus Hamas, there's no way he
could be

505
00:47:45,536 --> 00:47:49,896
an expert on all these things, but but people want to hear his take, and this is
just

506
00:47:49,896 --> 00:47:53,376
because. The world needs someone to, like.

507
00:47:54,376 --> 00:47:55,616
Sort out.

508
00:47:57,376 --> 00:48:02,936
All the reactions and things that communicate them, and I don't know, but, yeah, I

509
00:48:02,936 --> 00:48:10,616
think. Don't have that much time today, but but if people would want to test the

510
00:48:10,616 --> 00:48:16,736
software, that would help, and I think it's it should be it should work on all three

511
00:48:16,736 --> 00:48:19,176
operating systems, although I have to renew the.

512
00:48:21,416 --> 00:48:25,456
The Apple developer agreement, they always do this, then I have to sign in and do
it,

513
00:48:25,456 --> 00:48:28,736
but I'll take five seconds, but every now and then, for those of you who are into

514
00:48:28,736 --> 00:48:31,096
software. You have to like.

515
00:48:33,016 --> 00:48:37,216
Going to Apple and there's a giant list of things and you don't you don't read any
of it

516
00:48:37,216 --> 00:48:41,656
and you just click to do that, and I think Windows like window, you know, I used to
I

517
00:48:41,656 --> 00:48:47,736
really liked. Windows 98, I've heard that I heard recently that everyone is now

518
00:48:47,976 --> 00:48:49,496
reinstalling Windows 7.

519
00:48:50,456 --> 00:48:55,416
Which. I mean, God protect those people.

520
00:48:56,416 --> 00:48:58,176
And because.

521
00:48:59,376 --> 00:49:04,816
I have been so nice and stable, it was everything that XP was with some of the

522
00:49:04,816 --> 00:49:08,856
graphics of Vista, but without the issues of Vista.

523
00:49:09,776 --> 00:49:11,256
Yeah, I completely agree.

524
00:49:11,376 --> 00:49:17,536
And so. And and then, you know, you did hear rumors like Windows 11 is going to

525
00:49:17,536 --> 00:49:19,456
screenshot your computer every 10 seconds or something.

526
00:49:19,456 --> 00:49:23,416
I think that was ended up being fake, but but yeah, it's just horrible.

527
00:49:23,416 --> 00:49:25,456
I was a longtime Windows user.

528
00:49:25,976 --> 00:49:28,096
I really like, you know, I like Ubuntu.

529
00:49:28,096 --> 00:49:35,096
Ubuntu is very good on Linux and because I just like the idea that they are they're

530
00:49:35,096 --> 00:49:41,656
handholding the. The visual experience, of course, some people really love their the

531
00:49:41,656 --> 00:49:46,296
command line people, obviously they have their own like weird stuff, but a longtime

532
00:49:46,296 --> 00:49:51,896
Ubuntu user for like whatever, more than 15 years or something.

533
00:49:51,896 --> 00:49:56,656
I remember back when, well, I won't bore everyone, but Ubuntu was a lot harder to

534
00:49:56,656 --> 00:49:58,296
use around like.

535
00:49:58,743 --> 00:50:03,743
It was a lot harder to use around like around like 2012 to 2014, it started getting
a lot easier and they would.

536
00:50:05,023 --> 00:50:10,543
They started at least telling new people how to open the terminal, they had like the
keyboard shortcuts, things show up.

537
00:50:10,943 --> 00:50:17,383
But anyway, huge Windows user from, you know, the era of whatever Windows 95,
whatever before.

538
00:50:18,423 --> 00:50:19,983
3.1, did you use that?

539
00:50:20,623 --> 00:50:28,743
I think, yeah, the earliest. The first computer I had that I actually used was a
Macintosh Quadra 605.

540
00:50:30,023 --> 00:50:30,743
So look that up.

541
00:50:32,383 --> 00:50:47,023
And I could play, you could play games on it. You could play like my parents got me
like Puck Puck Goes on the Parade. It's like a kid's game. I played Myst on it. I
played a Super Maze Wars 3D. It's like a networking game where you're like a giant
polygon and you like shoot at people.

542
00:50:50,183 --> 00:51:01,263
And Diablo, I think, I don't remember. I guess maybe that wasn't Diablo 1, but there
was like, I played like a Seventh Guest, which was like terrifying when you were a
child.

543
00:51:03,783 --> 00:51:06,183
These are all these games I played. I had a great time.

544
00:51:06,383 --> 00:51:14,863
But I have to say that the Quadra 605 looks very slick. My first computer was an
Oliveri that was running Windows 95.

545
00:51:16,503 --> 00:51:23,303
I think it had like 166 megahertz Pentium 1 processor and 16 megabytes of RAM.

546
00:51:24,463 --> 00:51:33,583
No sound card. Actually, back in the day, sound cards were sort of like the graphics
cards of today. If you had proper sound, you needed to be a rich kid.

547
00:51:34,143 --> 00:51:37,903
I completely agree. I remember this a lot where it was like,

548
00:51:39,903 --> 00:51:55,383
this is the idea that there would even be something as a sound card. I remember when
that like phased out at like 2008 or something, where it was like, even if you were
doing like, you had like Sonic Acid Music Foundry, and

549
00:51:56,383 --> 00:52:08,543
you had like all this stuff, like you could just do it on a normal computer. But I
remember like, if you wanted like the MIDI cable to connect, you had to buy like
$175 sound card. Everything was so expensive.

550
00:52:09,343 --> 00:52:16,183
But yeah, so my first one, but yeah, long time user of all that was just the point
is to say that Windows used to just be really fun to use.

551
00:52:16,823 --> 00:52:23,143
Everything, even like the gray style, it was like really easy on the eyes, and it
was really easy to tell like what you could click on.

552
00:52:24,143 --> 00:52:32,783
And everything sucks now. I just can't stand it. It's horrible. So, and it's very
bad for anyone who's trying to learn how a computer works. So that was

553
00:52:34,543 --> 00:52:43,503
people in the past, they sort of, you know, did like a bite the bullet situation
where they're like, we're going to force, we need the user to understand like how a
file system works.

554
00:52:43,503 --> 00:52:51,703
How like, like what, why there is a control panel and how to find it. The stuff
would be breaking constantly in the computer, you'd have to go and fix it.

555
00:52:52,503 --> 00:53:05,223
Now, a lot of stuff works. So they just try to hide it. They try to hide the file
system now, which is infuriating. You don't know where your files are. When you're
younger, you know, you had to take because you have hard drive crash, you lose all
your files.

556
00:53:05,223 --> 00:53:26,663
Luckily, I didn't have too many problems with that. But of course, everyone back
then had some kind of, you're writing, you're writing the paper in Microsoft Word,
and the computer would shut off, and then you'd have to turn it on. First of all,
the computer would take like six minutes to turn on back then. Then you open it up
and it'd be like, oh, like you lost like

557
00:53:26,663 --> 00:53:56,103
like a page and a half because you didn't save yet I hit control s older people that
was a reflex. Yeah. And there are even mean early do that all the time. I still do
it too. Yeah, there was like memes about like Jesus saves, dot dot dot after every
paragraph or something. They were like old memes, like the first memes keyboard cat.
We're just talking about nothing now. But I mean, I'm just well under the weather.
So we can't we can't do that.

558
00:53:56,663 --> 00:54:24,823
Oh, it's fine. I gotta give a shout out to some people in the chat who are here.
Yes. There's Tom Dwyer, who says we'll definitely listen to this podcast, but I
can't hang out just wanted to say hey, hope to find the video of Paul's tab comp
presentation to heart emoji. Yeah. There's also Winston Alexander, who says explain
in layman's terms, the readers digest version of what is a Drivechain and why does
Bitcoin need it?

559
00:54:27,223 --> 00:54:42,023
The Drivechain is a solution to the problem of altcoins. So you either live in a
world where Bitcoin core is the only software and the only chain, and it has to be
infallible and perfect. And it somehow has to scale to 8 billion users.

560
00:54:43,703 --> 00:54:51,463
But right now we have a world of Bitcoin core, you have ETH, you have Solana, you
have base, you have all this stuff. And some of it is very fringe.

561
00:54:52,823 --> 00:54:54,823
And it won't work. Some of it is

562
00:54:55,783 --> 00:54:57,783
pushing the envelope on when a full node costs.

563
00:54:59,463 --> 00:55:20,583
And in that way, it is much worse. But you have all these other ideas, you know, the
Zcash privacy, Ethereum EVM. So you have all this creativity, all this innovation.
And the question is, do you want that to be outside the Bitcoin world? And so it's
always creating an altcoin or a threat to Bitcoin? Or do you just want to have it
all as these L2s that compete?

564
00:55:55,783 --> 00:56:03,783
I think your video is frozen and your audio too. Just a second. It might be an OBS
kind of issue.

565
00:56:07,783 --> 00:56:13,783
Let's try again. Make some small changes to this and then.

566
00:56:14,743 --> 00:56:16,743
Okay, you're back.

567
00:56:16,743 --> 00:56:20,743
I'm back. Okay. I could hear you the whole time. So I don't think it was in that
world.

568
00:56:20,743 --> 00:56:22,743
Me too. But it was an OBS bug, I think.

569
00:56:22,743 --> 00:56:24,743
Okay. What was the last thing you think anyone heard?

570
00:56:24,743 --> 00:56:36,743
So you're talking about the altcoins. And the fact that, yeah, it was basically the
beginning of your speech about Drivechains.

571
00:56:36,743 --> 00:56:38,743
Oh, okay.

572
00:56:39,703 --> 00:56:57,703
Okay, well, there's a few different ways of looking at it. One is why have an
altcoin like Zcash, where it has this privacy technology, when you can have just an
L2 that does exactly that with no altcoin part.

573
00:56:57,703 --> 00:56:59,703
It's just you send Bitcoin there and now you have privacy.

574
00:56:59,703 --> 00:57:03,703
A different way of looking at it is that it's a version of the Lightning Network
that actually works.

575
00:57:04,663 --> 00:57:20,663
So if you've been sold that the Lightning Network is good, which most people
believe, including the Drivechain skeptics, then if you think that that's a good
idea, well, this is just a version of that that actually works.

576
00:57:21,623 --> 00:57:37,623
We had an actual test over the summer and we had a script that simulates something
like 50% of what I project to be the transaction volume of the earth in the year
2030, which is we're talking trillions of transactions per year.

577
00:57:38,583 --> 00:57:48,583
And we simulated that rate of having something like 14 or 15 L2s each do 15 blocks
of 960 megabytes worth of transactions.

578
00:57:48,583 --> 00:57:56,583
And we have a script that actually makes all these transactions and has the blocks
connect and validate and so forth.

579
00:57:56,583 --> 00:58:02,583
And it's very preliminary, but we were able to do that this summer.

580
00:58:03,543 --> 00:58:05,543
So this is something that doesn't hit this scaling ceiling.

581
00:58:05,543 --> 00:58:07,543
And scaling is very important in software.

582
00:58:07,543 --> 00:58:13,543
If something just can't get past the scale ceiling, then it will stop working as
soon as it hits that number of users.

583
00:58:13,543 --> 00:58:15,543
And that's exactly what happened with Lightning.

584
00:58:15,543 --> 00:58:21,543
Once the ordinal users showed up of L1, it crowded out Lightning, caused Lightning
to suck.

585
00:58:21,543 --> 00:58:23,543
So these are different ways of looking at it.

586
00:58:23,543 --> 00:58:29,543
It's a version of the Lightning Network that actually works if you've been drinking
the Lightning Kool-Aid.

587
00:58:30,503 --> 00:58:34,503
Another way is just like, what do we do about innovation?

588
00:58:34,503 --> 00:58:36,503
People come up with new ideas all the time.

589
00:58:36,503 --> 00:58:40,503
There was a time before anyone had heard of Bitcoin.

590
00:58:40,503 --> 00:58:44,503
So it's possible to go from zero Bitcoin ideas to one.

591
00:58:44,503 --> 00:58:48,503
We can now go from zero to one on some even better idea.

592
00:58:48,503 --> 00:58:54,503
If we have a Drivechain L2, this just becomes an L2 and it just adds to Bitcoin's
strength.

593
00:58:54,503 --> 00:58:58,503
But if we don't, then those people will launch an altcoin.

594
00:58:59,463 --> 00:59:01,463
I think it's a matter of life or death.

595
00:59:01,463 --> 00:59:13,463
I think reaching 8 billion users or having a credible path or a credible orientation
towards that is a matter of life or death.

596
00:59:15,463 --> 00:59:25,463
I think it's also worth mentioning that your proposal compared to all the other L2s
is the only one that pays the miners guaranteed for every transaction.

597
00:59:26,423 --> 00:59:28,423
In the case of ZK Rollups, they just embed data.

598
00:59:28,423 --> 00:59:34,423
They use Bitcoin as a data availability layer and they're going to fill the blocks
with ZK proofs.

599
00:59:34,423 --> 00:59:38,423
But they don't pay the miners for every transaction that happens on their layer.

600
00:59:38,423 --> 00:59:42,423
In the case of Drivechains, the miners are collecting fees for everything,

601
00:59:42,423 --> 00:59:48,423
which guarantees a more healthy and sustainable hash rate for Bitcoin.

602
00:59:49,383 --> 00:59:51,383
Yeah, that's exactly right.

603
00:59:51,383 --> 00:59:57,383
I gave a talk in November of last year on this topic about the non-mined L2s I think
have no future.

604
00:59:57,383 --> 01:00:03,383
And I wrote an op-ed in Blockspace that they published yesterday about this.

605
01:00:05,383 --> 01:00:11,383
You have to imagine a situation where something else out there does is what everyone
transacts on.

606
01:00:11,383 --> 01:00:17,383
So they have Bitcoin transactions on some other L2 or maybe it's Visa or maybe it's
whatever.

607
01:00:18,343 --> 01:00:20,343
They're making a huge amount of money.

608
01:00:20,343 --> 01:00:22,343
It's just $0.10 on every transaction.

609
01:00:22,343 --> 01:00:26,343
I was saying $9 trillion, I think, in 2022.

610
01:00:26,343 --> 01:00:30,343
So I have some tiny study on that, like a little bit of math.

611
01:00:30,343 --> 01:00:34,343
$9 trillion transactions a year, $0.10 is $900 billion a year.

612
01:00:34,343 --> 01:00:36,343
It's a huge amount of money.

613
01:00:36,343 --> 01:00:40,343
And it grows 6.2% a year, according to what I projected.

614
01:00:40,343 --> 01:00:46,343
So if you have a situation where someone else is earning all this money and the L1
miners are not, that is unstable.

615
01:00:47,303 --> 01:00:51,303
And it will lead to vertical integration, Lightning, Foundry, LSP.

616
01:00:51,303 --> 01:00:55,303
They were going to do that, I think, but then they realized Lightning is a terrible
idea.

617
01:00:55,303 --> 01:00:57,303
So it's not even worth it.

618
01:00:57,303 --> 01:01:01,303
So this is another thing about – so there are actually quite a few things.

619
01:01:01,303 --> 01:01:07,303
We want to live in a world where the miners are loyal to the users.

620
01:01:07,303 --> 01:01:15,303
And we have a healthy feedback loop where people are using the software, complaining
about when it doesn't work and being happy when it works.

621
01:01:16,263 --> 01:01:20,263
The miners are making tons of money from actual end users.

622
01:01:20,263 --> 01:01:24,263
We don't want – when people pump the stock price – it's like you work at Theranos
and you pump the stock price.

623
01:01:24,263 --> 01:01:28,263
You're selling the stock price as your product.

624
01:01:28,263 --> 01:01:30,263
But we don't want that.

625
01:01:30,263 --> 01:01:32,263
That's like the market price of Bitcoin.

626
01:01:32,263 --> 01:01:38,263
It's healthier if people pump the total transaction fees paid on all networks, L1
and L2.

627
01:01:38,263 --> 01:01:42,263
So yeah, that's yet another reason.

628
01:01:43,223 --> 01:01:47,223
There's actually quite a few reasons.

629
01:01:47,223 --> 01:02:03,223
I mean, yeah, another reason still is that Drivechain is like this minimally – is an
optional, opt-in, ignorable soft fork that repurposes OP_NOP5, which is not being
used for anything, and which Satoshi put in.

630
01:02:03,223 --> 01:02:07,223
He put in the OpNops specifically for this purpose so that people could use them
later.

631
01:02:08,183 --> 01:02:28,183
And it's kind of like a demonstration that Bitcoin isn't dead in a way among other
things because it's like if something like this can't gain traction, then it's
definitely time to radically rethink, I think, the future of Bitcoin.

632
01:02:28,183 --> 01:02:34,183
This is my opinion because it's like literally no – it's literally asking almost
nothing.

633
01:02:35,143 --> 01:02:37,143
So it's kind of like a demo.

634
01:02:37,143 --> 01:02:53,143
It's kind of like if you – maybe you are kind of like – you're thinking about going
to a party, and someone like unbelievably famous, like a movie star, Tom Cruise, is
trying to get into the party.

635
01:02:53,143 --> 01:02:59,143
And he says he'll give everyone $1,000, and they're like, no, get out of here.

636
01:02:59,143 --> 01:03:01,143
And then you show up to the party, and there's only like three people there.

637
01:03:01,143 --> 01:03:06,103
And you're kind of like, oh my god, like I have to get out of here.

638
01:03:06,103 --> 01:03:08,103
So I think there's actually a lot of things.

639
01:03:08,103 --> 01:03:24,103
People should read my Derangements of Bitcoin post if they want to learn more about
what I think and how I disagree with the prevailing wisdom often.

640
01:03:24,103 --> 01:03:28,103
And we'll see how many of those things end up being totally vindicated and
vindicated many times.

641
01:03:29,063 --> 01:03:31,063
I've been in Bitcoin for a long time.

642
01:03:35,063 --> 01:03:39,063
But yeah, that's a – it's a pretty big question to answer.

643
01:03:39,063 --> 01:03:43,063
Do we have any more comments or questions or other thoughts?

644
01:03:43,063 --> 01:03:47,063
Yeah, we have someone who keeps commenting in the chat, Krev23.

645
01:03:47,063 --> 01:03:49,063
He's a regular on the show.

646
01:03:50,023 --> 01:03:52,023
And he does say that layer 2s are a bad idea.

647
01:03:52,023 --> 01:04:00,023
And he believes that if anything, there should be more altcoins and people should be
free to choose whatever network they find most useful.

648
01:04:00,023 --> 01:04:04,023
And it's all about competition, not –

649
01:04:04,023 --> 01:04:06,023
I agree with that.

650
01:04:06,023 --> 01:04:08,023
But I think I don't agree with all of that.

651
01:04:08,023 --> 01:04:14,023
Competition is certainly – I did write a recent post about competition and the one
true god.

652
01:04:14,023 --> 01:04:16,023
And it's very important.

653
01:04:16,023 --> 01:04:18,023
Competition is the secret sauce.

654
01:04:18,983 --> 01:04:28,983
However, the altcoins actually represent a lack of competition because the altcoin
is held back by the need to attract –

655
01:04:28,983 --> 01:04:42,983
the altcoin is stigmatized by its break from the interoperable-like coin.

656
01:04:43,943 --> 01:04:49,943
It's hard to explain, but I'm going to try to explain it because it's important.

657
01:04:49,943 --> 01:04:57,943
And imagine a world where everyone speaks English and you want to invent a new
language and you say it's better.

658
01:04:59,943 --> 01:05:03,943
There's a huge cost to this.

659
01:05:03,943 --> 01:05:05,943
You need to express a new idea in your new language.

660
01:05:05,943 --> 01:05:07,943
There's a huge cost.

661
01:05:08,903 --> 01:05:10,903
People have said – there are many things.

662
01:05:10,903 --> 01:05:12,903
There's a certain Polish playwright where they say it's untranslatable.

663
01:05:12,903 --> 01:05:18,903
You have to see it in Polish and you have to know Polish to understand it.

664
01:05:18,903 --> 01:05:20,903
And people have said similar things about the Koran.

665
01:05:20,903 --> 01:05:24,903
It has to be read in Arabic and you can't actually translate it.

666
01:05:24,903 --> 01:05:26,903
Other things like that have been said.

667
01:05:26,903 --> 01:05:34,903
So that's an idea of a situation where you need – it's all happening.

668
01:05:34,903 --> 01:05:36,903
But for most people, you should just come up with your own new word.

669
01:05:37,863 --> 01:05:39,863
You have to work within the English language.

670
01:05:39,863 --> 01:05:41,863
Just pitch your new word.

671
01:05:41,863 --> 01:05:43,863
Say something that's Kafkaesque or say something that's whatever.

672
01:05:43,863 --> 01:05:51,863
Just come up with your new word and leave it at that and say I'm going to tweet you.

673
01:05:51,863 --> 01:05:57,863
I'm going to Xerox a copy of the files or hand me a Kleenex.

674
01:05:57,863 --> 01:06:05,863
And creating a whole new language makes it so that it's too hard for people to
understand and engage with you communication-wise.

675
01:06:06,823 --> 01:06:14,823
And it makes it so that you – even if you had a really good idea, it won't be
expressed.

676
01:06:14,823 --> 01:06:16,823
It is weighed down by the cost of switching.

677
01:06:16,823 --> 01:06:20,823
So competition is the highest when people can easily switch.

678
01:06:20,823 --> 01:06:24,823
It's kind of like say you're at a food court and they have a Chinese restaurant and
they have a pizza restaurant.

679
01:06:24,823 --> 01:06:32,823
And if you can just walk back and forth and they both – both those places take Visa
maybe or they both take Bitcoin.

680
01:06:33,783 --> 01:06:35,783
And they both take U.S. dollars.

681
01:06:35,783 --> 01:06:37,783
They both speak English there.

682
01:06:37,783 --> 01:06:39,783
And they're in the same food court.

683
01:06:39,783 --> 01:06:51,783
Well, it's a different story than if you have a food court with all this stuff and
then if you want to have Chinese food, you have to like run across a minefield in a
war zone to get there.

684
01:06:51,783 --> 01:06:55,783
That's increasing the cost of switching.

685
01:06:55,783 --> 01:06:57,783
And that is bad for competition.

686
01:06:57,783 --> 01:07:01,783
It could be really good Chinese food and people still wouldn't want to.

687
01:07:02,743 --> 01:07:04,743
So the altcoins represent a regression.

688
01:07:04,743 --> 01:07:12,743
They're going the wrong way and they are not – they are not – so I don't know.

689
01:07:12,743 --> 01:07:16,743
If that person has a strong – did they reply to my rant just now?

690
01:07:16,743 --> 01:07:18,743
They really think that.

691
01:07:18,743 --> 01:07:22,743
I don't agree that this is not – this is a case where money has extremely strong
network effects.

692
01:07:22,743 --> 01:07:24,743
Software has strong network effects.

693
01:07:24,743 --> 01:07:28,743
You're very likely to have all your money stolen from you by bad software.

694
01:07:29,703 --> 01:07:37,703
So you want to – again, you want to have these brands, a brand of reliability such
as Bitcoin Core more or less.

695
01:07:37,703 --> 01:07:39,703
Bitcoin Core won't – it's unlikely that your funds will be stolen.

696
01:07:39,703 --> 01:07:41,703
They're just very lazy.

697
01:07:41,703 --> 01:07:43,703
So that's the downside of Bitcoin Core.

698
01:07:43,703 --> 01:07:47,703
And they have a very high opinion of themselves, which is fine.

699
01:07:47,703 --> 01:07:53,703
But it is not – so I don't know.

700
01:07:53,703 --> 01:07:55,703
Is that person reacting to what I have to say?

701
01:07:56,663 --> 01:08:00,663
But it's not – the L2 is where it's – you can switch.

702
01:08:00,663 --> 01:08:04,663
You have the same 0.01 Bitcoin and you can move it around.

703
01:08:04,663 --> 01:08:08,663
That's like walking across the food court.

704
01:08:08,663 --> 01:08:12,663
You can say, well, yesterday I had fast block times.

705
01:08:12,663 --> 01:08:14,663
Today I want EVM.

706
01:08:14,663 --> 01:08:16,663
Tomorrow I want ZK-SNARK privacy.

707
01:08:16,663 --> 01:08:18,663
But you don't have to give up too much.

708
01:08:18,663 --> 01:08:20,663
Now it's too much.

709
01:08:20,663 --> 01:08:22,663
You give up.

710
01:08:22,663 --> 01:08:24,663
You switch to an altcoin.

711
01:08:25,623 --> 01:08:27,623
That's not good for anyone.

712
01:08:27,623 --> 01:08:31,623
So I hope that's – my point of view is that I disagree with that person.

713
01:08:31,623 --> 01:08:37,623
He did not directly address what you said, but he kept saying that he hasn't used
Bitcoin since 2017.

714
01:08:37,623 --> 01:08:41,623
And he believes Litecoin is a much better version of Bitcoin.

715
01:08:41,623 --> 01:08:53,623
Anyway, I also have two major questions for you and also need to plug some sponsors,
which includes LayerTwo Labs, because it's part of the deal.

716
01:08:54,583 --> 01:09:00,583
So I'll tell you about the questions so I tease the audience and also give you some
time to think.

717
01:09:00,583 --> 01:09:04,583
And then I'll show the sponsors and then we get to the conversation.

718
01:09:04,583 --> 01:09:10,583
The first question that I have for you is why did you choose Zcash for the
fungibility sidechain?

719
01:09:10,583 --> 01:09:18,583
The second question that I have for you is did you look into the DAGs, which are a
completely different concept.

720
01:09:19,543 --> 01:09:23,543
They're similar to blockchains, but they're optimized for scalability.

721
01:09:23,543 --> 01:09:27,543
I think the best examples are Caspa and something that's called Quai.

722
01:09:27,543 --> 01:09:29,543
And I did interview the people.

723
01:09:29,543 --> 01:09:33,543
It's radically different from what I'm used to.

724
01:09:33,543 --> 01:09:45,543
But I do think it's interesting and it sort of stands apart from the rest of the
crowd, which is mainly just a clone or a fork of Bitcoin with certain optimizations.

725
01:09:46,503 --> 01:09:54,503
These are complete rewrites, which I think are this generation's MimbleWimble,
basically.

726
01:09:54,503 --> 01:09:58,503
And before I let you answer these two questions, LayerTwo Labs.

727
01:09:58,503 --> 01:10:02,503
Go to LayerTwoLabs.com slash download.

728
01:10:02,503 --> 01:10:04,503
Get the software.

729
01:10:04,503 --> 01:10:06,503
Try whatever sidechain you prefer.

730
01:10:06,503 --> 01:10:08,503
Try the prediction market.

731
01:10:09,463 --> 01:10:17,463
Try everything else that you find in there and join the Telegram chat, which is
called Drivechain Talk, where people will happily send you some testnet coins.

732
01:10:17,463 --> 01:10:29,463
So that you can send and basically join this community of people who talk about this
exciting breakthrough in terms of scaling Bitcoin and making the mining revenue
sustainable.

733
01:10:30,423 --> 01:10:38,423
Also check out Sideshift, which coincidentally happens to be one of the financiers.

734
01:10:38,423 --> 01:10:40,423
Is that a correct word?

735
01:10:40,423 --> 01:10:42,423
Investors in LayerTwo Labs?

736
01:10:42,423 --> 01:10:44,423
Related, yes.

737
01:10:44,423 --> 01:10:46,423
Very nice guys.

738
01:10:46,423 --> 01:10:50,423
If someone pays you in stablecoins or whatever, don't hold on to that.

739
01:10:50,423 --> 01:10:52,423
First of all, because we're in a bull market.

740
01:10:53,383 --> 01:11:01,383
Secondly, because they're censorship friendly and you never know when you receive
something that's not going to be spendable in a few months.

741
01:11:01,383 --> 01:11:03,383
You can swap it for BTC.

742
01:11:03,383 --> 01:11:05,383
You can swap it for LTC.

743
01:11:05,383 --> 01:11:09,383
You can swap it for whatever it is that you like or want, including the Trump token.

744
01:11:09,383 --> 01:11:21,383
Unfortunately, they don't have Zcash, which I sort of like lately, but I think is in
a very difficult situation from a regulatory point of view.

745
01:11:22,343 --> 01:11:24,343
Anyway, Sideshift.ai.

746
01:11:24,343 --> 01:11:28,343
Really cool, fast, good liquidity, low fees.

747
01:11:28,343 --> 01:11:30,343
Not available in the US, unfortunately.

748
01:11:30,343 --> 01:11:32,343
Once again, because of regulations.

749
01:11:32,343 --> 01:11:36,343
But if you really want to use it, you'll find workarounds.

750
01:11:36,343 --> 01:11:46,343
There's also Bitcoin.com news, which honestly has the best or at least the broadest
coverage of topics that you can find.

751
01:11:47,303 --> 01:11:51,303
If you're interested to see what's happening in other markets, which aren't
necessarily even crypto.

752
01:11:51,303 --> 01:11:55,303
They can be gold or other commodity markets.

753
01:11:55,303 --> 01:11:57,303
They tend to cover that.

754
01:11:57,303 --> 01:12:01,303
And I do like that they're less political than Bitcoin Magazine.

755
01:12:01,303 --> 01:12:07,303
And they're also less centered around startups and VC funded stuff than Coindesk.

756
01:12:07,303 --> 01:12:11,303
I think they strike sort of a balance in the middle.

757
01:12:11,303 --> 01:12:13,303
And now they're orange.

758
01:12:14,263 --> 01:12:16,263
Now, when you look at their website, it's not green anymore.

759
01:12:16,263 --> 01:12:20,263
They don't say that Bitcoin is the slow one that has high fees and you should be
using Bitcoin Cash.

760
01:12:20,263 --> 01:12:24,263
They gave up on that gimmick.

761
01:12:24,263 --> 01:12:26,263
They sort of followed the market trend.

762
01:12:26,263 --> 01:12:32,263
And right now, Bitcoin.com is what many people wished it would be like eight years
ago.

763
01:12:32,263 --> 01:12:38,263
And also, noones.com, which is a peer-to-peer marketplace for the global south.

764
01:12:39,223 --> 01:12:43,223
Do you know Ray Yousef, formerly of Paxful?

765
01:12:43,223 --> 01:12:45,223
I do, yes.

766
01:12:45,223 --> 01:12:55,223
He's like this WWE character who speaks about fighting the forces of evil and
onboarding the lines of the global south and stuff like that.

767
01:12:55,223 --> 01:13:03,223
Basically, if you're using his new exchange, which is called noones, which is
N-O-O-N-E-S.

768
01:13:04,183 --> 01:13:14,183
You're giving liquidity to some Nigerian or some Venezuelan or someone from the
Middle East who really needs to use that to hustle and increase adoption.

769
01:13:14,183 --> 01:13:16,183
And I think it's a nice concept.

770
01:13:16,183 --> 01:13:20,183
What Ray Yousef calls it is that everyone gets a seat at the table and everyone
eats.

771
01:13:20,183 --> 01:13:22,183
And I love it.

772
01:13:22,183 --> 01:13:24,183
It's really cool.

773
01:13:24,183 --> 01:13:26,183
Check it out.

774
01:13:26,183 --> 01:13:28,183
It's N-O-O-N-E-S.com.

775
01:13:28,183 --> 01:13:30,183
And I'm done plugging sponsors in this episode.

776
01:13:30,183 --> 01:13:32,183
Thank you very much for sitting through my ads.

777
01:13:33,143 --> 01:13:37,143
And now, Paul, let's tackle the questions in whichever order you prefer.

778
01:13:37,143 --> 01:13:47,143
Yeah, we don't have the prediction market L2, which is my highly ambitious design
for a prediction market where everything, including the oracle, is decentral,
peer-to-peer.

779
01:13:47,143 --> 01:13:51,143
And there's no permanent identities.

780
01:13:52,103 --> 01:13:58,103
This is my extremely ambitious project, which later became – it's very old, from
2012.

781
01:13:58,103 --> 01:14:06,103
And it later became like ArgoGnosis and even was partially inspired by Polymarket
and these other things that are famous today.

782
01:14:06,103 --> 01:14:16,103
I was rewriting it in Rust, and it's not quite – that one is not quite user – it
doesn't have like buttons that you can click.

783
01:14:17,063 --> 01:14:25,063
So you cannot use that yet, although you can see – I'll send people to GitHub if
they are interested in checking that out.

784
01:14:25,063 --> 01:14:29,063
I got to mention that, Paul, because you are the prediction market OG.

785
01:14:29,063 --> 01:14:33,063
You're the first one who pushed it in the context of Bitcoin.

786
01:14:33,063 --> 01:14:35,063
That's right.

787
01:14:35,063 --> 01:14:37,063
You're not the one who reaped basically the fruits of your labor.

788
01:14:37,063 --> 01:14:45,063
So maybe we can come back next week when I'm less sick and I can tell you the long
story about that.

789
01:14:46,023 --> 01:14:48,023
But partly this is by design.

790
01:14:48,023 --> 01:14:56,023
I knew that it would be hell, and I knew that like it's hell because you have to do
the oracle.

791
01:14:56,023 --> 01:14:58,023
You have to resolve the question somehow.

792
01:14:58,023 --> 01:15:02,023
People are going to complain, like they did with Zelensky wearing a suit or
whatever.

793
01:15:02,145 --> 01:15:15,145
And then it's like all the fun of running a large exchange because everyone's money
is like there in the system, so anyone can hack it and steal everyone's money. So
not fun at all.

794
01:15:15,145 --> 01:15:33,145
And then of course every regulator, everyone would hate it. I knew. When the FBI
took Mr. Shane's phone, the founder of Polymarket, they raided his New York
apartment and took his cell phone.

795
01:15:34,145 --> 01:15:51,145
That was kind of like, I was like, oh, yeah, there you go. Welcome to prediction
market. So he got raided, but then he got all of the credit. So as far as I'm
concerned, that's like a fair trade or whatever.

796
01:15:51,145 --> 01:16:08,145
I think who knows what would have happened. I would love to know. I have no idea,
and I've avoided discussing this with anyone who I think might know. But maybe I
should ask because I'm dying. I'm very curious to know what people think would have
happened to Polymarket if Hamel had won.

797
01:16:08,145 --> 01:16:22,145
I have no idea. Maybe it makes no difference, but also I think it could have made a
huge difference. People could be in trouble, in prison, whatever. But I'm very
curious to know that.

798
01:16:22,145 --> 01:16:46,145
But yeah, I do know a lot about prediction markets. Some say the most, but we can go
into that. And of course, huge credit to the great Robin Hanson, professor at George
Mason University and the great economist.

799
01:16:46,145 --> 01:17:10,145
And he's the real – he's prediction market OG, although he always disliked the
blockchain until recently. So I tried to tell him this blockchain thing is going to
be big prediction markets. He was skeptical more than 10 years ago.

800
01:17:11,145 --> 01:17:16,145
But he's great. Yeah, if you can ever interview him, he is incredible.

801
01:17:16,145 --> 01:17:19,145
If you could connect me to him, I would be honored.

802
01:17:19,145 --> 01:17:32,145
Yeah, he's great. So these other questions about Zcash versus something else. The
question is compared to what? So the answer would be Monero or whatever, I suppose.

803
01:17:32,145 --> 01:17:38,145
Well, I sold my XMR and I said I'm not going to mention the name again, so I'll call
it Romero.

804
01:17:39,145 --> 01:17:40,145
Romero.

805
01:17:40,145 --> 01:17:41,145
Romero.

806
01:17:41,145 --> 01:17:43,145
Zcashulet.

807
01:17:43,145 --> 01:17:55,145
Zerocash, that's where it started. 2014. It was supposed to be a soft fork on
Bitcoin to improve the privacy. Never happened. Bitcoiners forgot about it.

808
01:17:56,145 --> 01:18:07,145
Yeah, things stay the same. Things rhyme, but they stay the same. And then now we
have the sour grapes. People say, oh, we never – Bitcoin never wanted that.

809
01:18:08,145 --> 01:18:20,145
And you have Michael Saylor killing deals secretly and then lying about it. Lying by
omission, certainly. Secretly killing projects to make Bitcoin more private,
actively campaigning.

810
01:18:20,145 --> 01:18:33,145
This all came out by – what's his name? Citadel Dispatch guy. Marty. Not Marty. Matt
O'Dell. Sorry, Matt. Matt O'Dell. Do you know what I'm talking about? He blew the
whistle on this.

811
01:18:34,145 --> 01:18:41,145
He sort of mentioned it, but afterwards he seemed to agree with Michael Saylor on
some issues. It's very strange. I don't know.

812
01:18:41,145 --> 01:18:46,145
Maybe he just blew the whistle on it and he just kind of said, I'm just going to
back off because it's not worth it.

813
01:18:48,145 --> 01:18:52,145
But he also had no source for it, and I don't think there was anyone else who
confirmed that.

814
01:18:52,145 --> 01:19:04,145
No, I think it was corroborated. Jack Dorsey himself I think corroborated it and
admitted that it was his ETF. Maybe not. People can look it up. Look it up,
everyone. Ask Grok.

815
01:19:06,145 --> 01:19:18,145
So basically the story is that some ETF was going to give a percentage of their
profits to Bitcoin Core development, and supposedly Michael Saylor got involved and
told them not to do it.

816
01:19:19,145 --> 01:19:24,145
Yes, and he did this secretly without being proud of it.

817
01:19:25,145 --> 01:19:35,145
But now he's proud of it. He goes on interviews and he says, well, you shouldn't
give these people too much money because they come up with ideas that are actually
bad.

818
01:19:35,145 --> 01:19:44,145
Well, that's what I mean. That was at the time. So I think it would be helpful for
everyone if, you know, why not just keep asking so that it can be as clear as
possible exactly what everyone's position is.

819
01:19:44,145 --> 01:19:54,145
But of course now by now it is more clear that Mr. Saylor's position is that privacy
on Bitcoin is bad, but for different reasons because he doesn't want to like the
taint.

820
01:19:54,145 --> 01:20:02,145
This is the old guilt by association argument, which is very old. And it's just as
wrong today as it was back then.

821
01:20:02,145 --> 01:20:16,145
But there is a different thing, which when something like – now it's because we
can't – it's too difficult to add ZK-SNARKs to Bitcoin. So now people say, well, we
never wanted that anyway.

822
01:20:16,145 --> 01:20:18,145
So this is a completely different type of mistake.

823
01:20:18,145 --> 01:20:24,145
But it's not more difficult. If anything, they simplified the software. They made it
more scalable. It was more of a…

824
01:20:25,145 --> 01:20:35,145
You're absolutely right. The ZK-SNARK part has gotten better. It used to be
incomprehensible and terrible, and now it's just a rust crate that you just add a
line.

825
01:20:35,145 --> 01:20:47,145
There's a little more to it than that, but now it has become commoditized and more.
It's becoming standardized, so that's way better.

826
01:20:48,145 --> 01:20:54,145
But it's become harder to do anything with Bitcoin. So now people say, well, we
never wanted small contracts on Bitcoin.

827
01:20:54,145 --> 01:21:05,145
But you and I can remember when, in 2015, the argument was just whatever Ethereum
does, Bitcoin will just do because it's all open source and we're going to have a…

828
01:21:05,145 --> 01:21:16,145
That's where the article about Bitcoin maximalism comes from. It was someone on
Reddit who said this to Vitalik, and he got triggered and decided to write a blog
post in which he called it Bitcoin maximalism.

829
01:21:16,145 --> 01:21:23,145
That's where the term comes from. It was embraced by people afterwards who said,
well, it seems like we're maximalists now.

830
01:21:23,145 --> 01:21:30,145
But it's just that that was the mentality at the time. It was one coin to rule them
all.

831
01:21:31,145 --> 01:21:41,145
Yes. So back to your question, though. The way Zcash was coded, this is back in
2020.

832
01:21:41,145 --> 01:21:51,145
Originally, what happened was in 2020, I did a hackathon contest to make Zcash
sidechain, which someone entered and won.

833
01:21:52,145 --> 01:21:58,145
This was back in 2020, and this is because originally Zcash was a fork of Bitcoin
Core.

834
01:21:58,145 --> 01:22:02,145
I think it was a fork of like Bitcoin Core 12 or something, 0.12.

835
01:22:02,145 --> 01:22:05,145
That's maybe completely wrong, but something like that.

836
01:22:05,145 --> 01:22:14,145
And what we had, our Drivechain software, including both the L1 and the L2, those
were both like forks of Bitcoin 1699.

837
01:22:14,145 --> 01:22:17,145
It was an especially good version.

838
01:22:18,145 --> 01:22:21,145
Maybe the modern versions are worse or whatever.

839
01:22:21,145 --> 01:22:27,145
So back then, the code was more similar. It's a simple reason, but there's more
reasons to it than that.

840
01:22:27,145 --> 01:22:41,145
The big drawback to Zcash was that, well, first of all, the way Monero works is it
has these ring signatures where it blinds you with like nine other people.

841
01:22:41,145 --> 01:22:43,145
16.

842
01:22:43,145 --> 01:22:46,145
16 now. Thanks.

843
01:22:46,145 --> 01:22:49,145
I think it was small before. Maybe that's also completely wrong. I don't know.

844
01:22:49,145 --> 01:22:56,145
But that's the point is it's – it was like you get – you have a – like what I call
decoys.

845
01:22:56,145 --> 01:23:05,145
You have like 15 decoys. It's like you go in and everyone's wearing – you see that
movie – what's the bank robbery movie, Inside Job?

846
01:23:05,145 --> 01:23:14,145
Everyone's wearing the same mask, and they make all the hostages wear the same
jumpsuit and the mask.

847
01:23:15,145 --> 01:23:20,145
And everyone's – the bank robbers are mixed in with them, and they don't know.

848
01:23:20,145 --> 01:23:27,145
That's the point is in order to have privacy, privacy is inherently social, and you
need to mix.

849
01:23:27,145 --> 01:23:29,145
So you need to mix with the innocent people.

850
01:23:29,145 --> 01:23:35,145
But I can argue that's not privacy. It's the deniability because it could be any one
of these 16.

851
01:23:35,145 --> 01:23:40,145
But real privacy means that you're not showing anything.

852
01:23:41,145 --> 01:23:48,145
Well, okay. The problem with that is in order to make a transaction, you have to
show something somewhere.

853
01:23:48,145 --> 01:23:51,145
You have to show like the merchant that you paid them.

854
01:23:51,145 --> 01:24:01,145
So it would be neat if you could have total universal privacy like even like
whatever from God or from like physics or something.

855
01:24:01,145 --> 01:24:05,145
But we have to – and especially the blockchain is going to have a record of every
transaction.

856
01:24:05,145 --> 01:24:09,145
So I think decoys are the best we can do.

857
01:24:09,145 --> 01:24:18,145
In the Zcash world, everyone in the pool, everyone is in the decoy set because the
sender, the receiver, and the amount are all hidden.

858
01:24:18,145 --> 01:24:23,145
So no one knows which coins are moving where if it's you sending to yourself or
whatever.

859
01:24:23,145 --> 01:24:25,145
How many coins?

860
01:24:25,145 --> 01:24:30,145
So Monero is just actually a little bit tamer. It's not quite as strong.

861
01:24:30,145 --> 01:24:33,145
And the other thing was Monero was just a completely written from scratch thing.

862
01:24:33,145 --> 01:24:36,145
Zcash was a fork of Bitcoin back in the time.

863
01:24:36,145 --> 01:24:48,145
Now, there's yet another reason, which is now at this point, the L2s that we are
using now, we do have some of the old style that we don't really use.

864
01:24:48,145 --> 01:24:57,145
These are old style C++ forks of Bitcoin Core that – Bitcoin Core not as the L1 but
as the L2 because why not?

865
01:24:57,145 --> 01:24:59,145
I mean Bitcoin Core is a high-quality piece of software.

866
01:24:59,145 --> 01:25:01,145
So that's how we used to do it.

867
01:25:01,145 --> 01:25:06,145
But now we have a Rust-based L2s, and actually there's just a crate.

868
01:25:06,145 --> 01:25:11,145
I don't know how many – how people are familiar with Rust, but Rust has these little
modules.

869
01:25:11,145 --> 01:25:23,145
And it's like going down to the store and buying – you go down to Home Depot and you
could buy one hammer, one box of nails, one diamond-edge saw.

870
01:25:23,145 --> 01:25:25,145
So you just take it off the shelf.

871
01:25:25,145 --> 01:25:28,145
The Zcash –

872
01:25:28,145 --> 01:25:30,145
Yeah, I understand.

873
01:25:30,145 --> 01:25:33,145
And so it's superior privacy.

874
01:25:33,145 --> 01:25:35,145
There's even more reasons on top of that.

875
01:25:35,145 --> 01:25:39,145
With Zcash, there is an endlessly growing nullifier set.

876
01:25:39,145 --> 01:25:40,145
I don't know if this is still true.

877
01:25:40,145 --> 01:25:41,145
I assume it is.

878
01:25:41,145 --> 01:25:51,145
It's true as of like last year when it was last time I was more closely looking at
it, which is to say you pin on the built-in board.

879
01:25:51,145 --> 01:25:57,145
This is like – these are the coins that I have deleted.

880
01:25:57,145 --> 01:25:59,145
Like this is the UTXO I've spent.

881
01:25:59,145 --> 01:26:01,145
Only – I think only the – it's hard.

882
01:26:01,145 --> 01:26:11,145
This is stuff that's very hard to explain and to get right, but it's something like
only the recipient actually knows that you burnt seven coins to give to them,

883
01:26:11,145 --> 01:26:16,145
and everyone else just sees like the built-in board get more stuff pinned on it.

884
01:26:16,145 --> 01:26:28,145
And so basically this list grows forever, and this is a drawback to Zcash, and it
has these turnstile things where you have sprout, sapling, orchard, whatever.

885
01:26:28,145 --> 01:26:36,145
They eventually move on to the next thing both because the technology improves but
just because they also have to roll this nullifier set over.

886
01:26:36,145 --> 01:26:41,145
This is ideal for the sidechain world because you can just spin up the next
sidechain.

887
01:26:41,145 --> 01:26:44,145
The nullifier set on that chain is now zero.

888
01:26:44,145 --> 01:26:46,145
It's now nothing.

889
01:26:46,145 --> 01:26:47,145
You can start over again.

890
01:26:47,145 --> 01:26:58,145
So all the disadvantages – I guess I think like Zcash had the dev tax, and it also
had this wacky proof-of-work stuff like the cuckoo cycles.

891
01:26:58,145 --> 01:27:09,145
So all these weird things that Zcash did that I think are just like wacky mistakes,
wacky proof-of-work algorithm, the dev tax, it's just very easy to just cuddle.

892
01:27:09,145 --> 01:27:13,145
Yeah, but to their credit, over nine years, they did build interesting stuff.

893
01:27:13,145 --> 01:27:17,145
They got rid of the trusted setup with Halo 2.

894
01:27:17,145 --> 01:27:22,145
They also built the unified addresses, which honestly are interesting.

895
01:27:22,145 --> 01:27:30,145
They also are working on something that's called Tachyon that's going to use
oblivious synchronization to basically scale to billions of users.

896
01:27:30,145 --> 01:27:39,145
They are building shielded assets, which also might be something interesting for
people who are into Ethereum stuff.

897
01:27:39,145 --> 01:27:48,145
And all of this can just get added to the sidechain or to the zero-cash soft fork if
that ever happens.

898
01:27:48,145 --> 01:27:50,145
Bitcoin can benefit from it.

899
01:27:50,145 --> 01:27:57,145
And if you look at it through the right lens, it's sort of like a research lab for
Bitcoin and also Ethereum.

900
01:27:57,145 --> 01:28:01,145
You could not have ZK Rollups today without Zcash.

901
01:28:01,145 --> 01:28:21,145
I'd like to clarify that my opinion is that research primarily, although not
exclusively, but I think it's primarily – and I am like a – I'm like a very cynical
person, and I'm an economist by training.

902
01:28:21,145 --> 01:28:28,145
But I do think that R&D is mostly a creative endeavor.

903
01:28:28,145 --> 01:28:32,145
It is someone who really wants something.

904
01:28:32,145 --> 01:28:35,145
It's an individual who wants to will something into existence.

905
01:28:35,145 --> 01:28:42,145
It's like George Lucas with the first Star Wars movie or something.

906
01:28:42,145 --> 01:28:55,145
And so I don't know if – what happened with Bitcoin is not – I don't think the dev
tax and the funding for Zcash –

907
01:28:55,145 --> 01:29:00,145
I don't think that's the big – like the big driver.

908
01:29:00,145 --> 01:29:07,145
What I think happened was, as you say, is Zerocoin – that was like whatever, like
2011 or 2012 or something.

909
01:29:07,145 --> 01:29:10,145
So what really happens is people want to do it.

910
01:29:10,145 --> 01:29:12,145
They want to do the R&D.

911
01:29:12,145 --> 01:29:15,145
But on Bitcoin, they encounter an insurmountable barrier.

912
01:29:15,145 --> 01:29:17,145
They can't do it.

913
01:29:17,145 --> 01:29:20,145
And they're forced to do it in some other way.

914
01:29:20,145 --> 01:29:23,145
And then all this other stuff leaks out.

915
01:29:23,145 --> 01:29:28,145
The stuff leaks out, if you know what I mean.

916
01:29:28,145 --> 01:29:30,145
You know what I mean?

917
01:29:30,145 --> 01:29:36,145
You get like a wacky character who says, oh, we can sell this to A16Z for like a
million dollars.

918
01:29:36,145 --> 01:29:41,145
And you get Solana, and they get 12% to A16Z or whatever they did.

919
01:29:41,145 --> 01:29:43,145
I don't even remember, and I don't even care.

920
01:29:43,145 --> 01:29:50,145
The point is the money is mostly a distraction.

921
01:29:50,145 --> 01:29:52,145
I think that's what I was trying to emphasize earlier.

922
01:29:52,145 --> 01:29:59,145
The money, it gets in the way of invention and innovation.

923
01:29:59,145 --> 01:30:04,145
I mean up to a point, because eventually you need like a team.

924
01:30:04,145 --> 01:30:07,145
It's hard to do everything yourself.

925
01:30:07,145 --> 01:30:09,145
But does that make any sense?

926
01:30:09,145 --> 01:30:11,145
I don't really think this whole dev – like whatever.

927
01:30:11,145 --> 01:30:14,145
This stuff would have been built on Bitcoin if we had Sidechain.

928
01:30:14,145 --> 01:30:16,145
It would have been built for free probably faster and better.

929
01:30:19,145 --> 01:30:22,145
I actually have a short clip from my interview with Zucco.

930
01:30:22,145 --> 01:30:29,145
And he said that he was going to launch – because one of the people working on Zcash
is Andrew Miller,

931
01:30:29,145 --> 01:30:33,145
who is a co-author of the Sidechain's paper at Blockstream.

932
01:30:33,145 --> 01:30:37,145
And he's also a university professor in Chicago or something.

933
01:30:38,145 --> 01:30:45,145
But my point is that the plan for Zcash initially was to launch first as the
Zerocash soft fork.

934
01:30:45,145 --> 01:30:48,145
Then they said, well, we can do it as a Sidechain.

935
01:30:48,145 --> 01:30:51,145
And it was actually Roger Veer who intervened and said,

936
01:30:51,145 --> 01:30:56,145
well, you're not getting any information from the market if you just launch it as a
Sidechain.

937
01:30:56,145 --> 01:30:58,145
Just let the market speak.

938
01:30:58,145 --> 01:31:02,145
Let's see if there's any demand for this, and then maybe we can have it on Bitcoin.

939
01:31:03,145 --> 01:31:09,145
So sort of Roger is to blame for the fact that Zcash exists as an altcoin?

940
01:31:09,145 --> 01:31:14,145
That's a very interesting parallel to what I did with Truthcoin, which is why I have
the Truthcoin handle.

941
01:31:14,145 --> 01:31:19,145
Because Truthcoin was supposed to be a – well, it was originally –

942
01:31:19,145 --> 01:31:23,145
I originally just designed it without figuring out how to vault it into Bitcoin.

943
01:31:23,145 --> 01:31:27,145
And then I was like, well, you definitely can't use an opcode for this.

944
01:31:27,145 --> 01:31:29,145
So it has to be a Sidechain.

945
01:31:29,145 --> 01:31:34,145
And then I just kind of waited for a Sidechain, or I got more involved with the
Sidechain part of the stack,

946
01:31:34,145 --> 01:31:37,145
which is why I care so much about it partially.

947
01:31:39,145 --> 01:31:42,145
But yeah, like a lot of people have said, oh, if you had done –

948
01:31:42,145 --> 01:31:47,145
people have suggested like, oh, you could have done Truthcoin, the altcoin.

949
01:31:47,145 --> 01:31:50,145
I could have done in 2014.

950
01:31:52,145 --> 01:31:57,145
And then that would be the Polymarket or whatever of today, but it would be an
altcoin.

951
01:31:57,145 --> 01:32:01,145
And so weirdly, I'm the biggest maximalist of them all.

952
01:32:01,145 --> 01:32:03,145
I sacrificed quite a bit.

953
01:32:03,145 --> 01:32:08,145
So according to some, like this is not necessarily how I would tell the story, but I
think –

954
01:32:08,145 --> 01:32:15,145
You and Sergio too, because Sergio Lerner claims that a lot of the altcoin ideas
that he had ended up in altcoins,

955
01:32:15,145 --> 01:32:17,145
but he never participated.

956
01:32:17,145 --> 01:32:23,145
He chose to build that Sidechain, which didn't take off.

957
01:32:23,145 --> 01:32:27,145
But I'm still hopeful that they will turn it around.

958
01:32:28,145 --> 01:32:29,145
Right.

959
01:32:29,145 --> 01:32:35,145
But you see the benefits and drawbacks of the approach, these different approaches.

960
01:32:35,145 --> 01:32:40,145
So if you actually launch, you get to actually do something.

961
01:32:40,145 --> 01:32:47,145
This is also for David Borek with like the SIA coin, like the Filecoin variant.

962
01:32:47,145 --> 01:32:50,145
They also wanted to do it as a Bitcoin Sidechain.

963
01:32:50,145 --> 01:32:55,145
But again, Blockstream sort of sucked all the air out of the room on this topic.

964
01:32:55,145 --> 01:32:56,145
They raised all this money.

965
01:32:56,145 --> 01:33:02,145
They raised more than – I think it was more than like 150,000 BTC.

966
01:33:02,145 --> 01:33:14,145
It sounds incredible, but it was 55 million in 2015, 2014, 21 million in like early
2014.

967
01:33:14,145 --> 01:33:21,145
So they raised all this money, and they themselves said they swapped like some
amount.

968
01:33:21,145 --> 01:33:22,145
We don't know.

969
01:33:22,145 --> 01:33:24,145
Half for BTC.

970
01:33:24,145 --> 01:33:25,145
I have no idea.

971
01:33:25,145 --> 01:33:31,145
But they raised all this money, and then everyone said – remember, Gavin had this
tweet.

972
01:33:31,145 --> 01:33:35,145
If this amazing company offers you a job, take it.

973
01:33:35,145 --> 01:33:43,145
So they were like the center of the Bitcoin world back in 2014, 2015.

974
01:33:43,145 --> 01:33:47,145
But they did not deliver on their two-way peg idea.

975
01:33:47,145 --> 01:33:56,145
But as a result of this delay, these other projects got started, and I think this
gave legitimacy to the whole category of altcoins.

976
01:33:56,145 --> 01:34:06,145
So really, the one failure of Blockstream I think created all the altcoins and set
back all the R&D of the whole industry.

977
01:34:06,145 --> 01:34:11,145
And there's trillions in malinvestment.

978
01:34:11,145 --> 01:34:23,145
But of course, you could say maybe if they had never come up with the word of the
sidechain, there wouldn't even be a category and things would have been even worse
or some other type of thing.

979
01:34:23,145 --> 01:34:26,145
But I think all that's eminently possible.

980
01:34:27,145 --> 01:34:39,145
Yeah, the guy who was in the chat, just for the record, Krev23, he says that he
would be happy to engage with you directly on his show that's called The D-Shift.

981
01:34:39,145 --> 01:34:44,145
Maybe he can post a link or something.

982
01:34:44,145 --> 01:34:48,145
I'm having a very busy week, and in fact, I'm going to have to go soon.

983
01:34:48,145 --> 01:34:53,145
But maybe I can do like another 12 minutes.

984
01:34:54,145 --> 01:35:00,145
Yeah, so do you have any thoughts on the whole concept of the DAG?

985
01:35:00,145 --> 01:35:06,145
I don't think it's actually that much better, but maybe I'm wrong about that. I
don't know.

986
01:35:06,145 --> 01:35:14,145
It's a design which does not orphan blocks and minus about 10 blocks every second in
parallel.

987
01:35:14,145 --> 01:35:20,145
I think this is a misunderstanding of why the interblock time is long.

988
01:35:20,145 --> 01:35:29,145
Because what it does, the 10-minute blocks means – and I think Satoshi had it as 15
minutes and changed it to 10 minutes at the last second or something.

989
01:35:29,145 --> 01:35:35,145
You mean the 2008 version from November or something, which was sent to Ray
Dillinger and Halfini?

990
01:35:35,145 --> 01:35:37,145
I think so, yes.

991
01:35:37,145 --> 01:35:47,145
And so the long block time is because the headers are only 80 bytes and it's very
easy to get them around the world.

992
01:35:48,145 --> 01:36:00,145
And so I think it makes it so SPV, the headers are only 4.4 megabytes per year,
which is very, very small, especially back in 2008, 2009, January 2009.

993
01:36:00,145 --> 01:36:16,145
And I think that's the reason. It's just based on cost of the node, bandwidth,
hidden bandwidth, like a type of bandwidth that allows you to hide the physical
location of your computer.

994
01:36:16,145 --> 01:36:28,145
I think that's the reason to have small block size and small header size and slow
interblock time for the L1.

995
01:36:28,145 --> 01:36:43,145
The L2, you can do whatever you want. Like I said, we tested L2 with 960 megabyte
blocks, whatever, like 1,000 times, three orders of magnitude larger.

996
01:36:43,145 --> 01:36:52,145
And that is obviously a situation where it will be much harder to run the node, much
harder to hide the physical location.

997
01:36:52,145 --> 01:36:58,145
But I have laid out all these arguments in writing my blog about why that doesn't
matter as much for the L2s.

998
01:36:58,145 --> 01:37:12,145
The L2s can be can be different L2s in different countries and the L2s can pause for
a while while the L1 only is working or some of the L2s and then they can just turn
back on.

999
01:37:12,145 --> 01:37:17,145
So a lot of that stuff doesn't matter as much, modern daily type of a thing.

1000
01:37:17,145 --> 01:37:30,145
So I don't know what problem it solves, because I have already demonstrated how to
scale to 8 billion users with my own software.

1001
01:37:30,145 --> 01:37:33,145
And I think having a lot of headers, it makes SPV harder.

1002
01:37:34,145 --> 01:37:43,145
So maybe they have a different solution for that. But I think SPV is actually pretty
crucial, because without SPV, you have to convince people to run a node, but most
people won't.

1003
01:37:43,145 --> 01:37:52,145
So until you can convince, until someone can, until I meet someone who they can
convince, they can tell everyone lightning is great.

1004
01:37:52,145 --> 01:38:00,145
And when that person, this is the third person, so A is me, B, I'm meeting someone,
B can tell C that lightning is great.

1005
01:38:00,145 --> 01:38:08,145
And that person will download lightning, they'll have a full node with 800 gigabyte
and like a two day sync time.

1006
01:38:08,145 --> 01:38:13,145
And then their lightning node will reference their own Bitcoin core full node.

1007
01:38:14,145 --> 01:38:22,145
When I meet that person, then I'll give up on SPV, but actually SPV is a phenomenal
idea invented by Satoshi.

1008
01:38:22,145 --> 01:38:26,145
He knew that he would have to have a great user experience, and that is what he
designed.

1009
01:38:26,145 --> 01:38:27,145
It's in the white paper.

1010
01:38:27,145 --> 01:38:29,145
It's in the white paper, and it's just fine.

1011
01:38:29,145 --> 01:38:35,145
But it wasn't until Mike Hearn came with his solution that it was actually
practical.

1012
01:38:35,145 --> 01:38:40,145
Like Satoshi did not give us SPV, he just conceptualized it.

1013
01:38:40,145 --> 01:38:47,145
And SPV, you are a little bit of a free rider because you need someone else's full
node.

1014
01:38:47,145 --> 01:38:49,145
But that's fine.

1015
01:38:49,145 --> 01:38:55,145
That's really not a big deal, especially because the question is compared to what?

1016
01:38:55,145 --> 01:39:01,145
And then people say, then what people end up with is custodial lightning when they
try to answer that question.

1017
01:39:02,145 --> 01:39:07,145
So these are this is the foolish thing is that SPV is in this peak.

1018
01:39:07,145 --> 01:39:16,145
And on one side, everyone running a full node, which will never happen, especially
new people are extremely poor people or whatever.

1019
01:39:16,145 --> 01:39:19,145
And then on the other side, just custodial.

1020
01:39:20,145 --> 01:39:24,145
For the user experience, so SPV strikes the perfect balance of being.

1021
01:39:24,145 --> 01:39:34,145
Extremely protective of your property rights and extremely useful in preventing
people from lying to you about whether or not they have paid you.

1022
01:39:34,145 --> 01:39:40,145
Bitcoin is ninety nine point nine nine percent.

1023
01:39:40,145 --> 01:39:49,145
And also unbelievably convenient, four point four megabytes per year of block
blockchain data and BTC.

1024
01:39:49,145 --> 01:39:52,145
So that is. Basically, nothing.

1025
01:39:52,145 --> 01:39:54,145
So I don't know the dag whatever.

1026
01:39:54,145 --> 01:39:57,145
I don't care, but maybe I could be wrong about that.

1027
01:39:58,166 --> 01:40:25,166
I did take a look at it, it seems interesting, it's very niche at this point, like
there are not too many people who understand how that works, there are a bunch of
enthusiasts who really love Casper, but because they got rich using it or because
one of the founders has this Jesus like kind of following and people think he's he
might be Satoshi or something, and that's why they basically worship the founder of
Bitcoin, because he's the founder of Bitcoin.

1028
01:40:25,166 --> 01:40:41,326
The land that he walks on and stuff like this, like the interview that that I did
with him was, I think, the second most popular that I had on the show after Vitalik
and the chat was just blowing up with questions and people commenting.

1029
01:40:41,326 --> 01:40:55,486
So maybe it's organic, maybe it's just people who got rich, but the point is that
it's pretty interesting and it's radically different from everything else that you
see, which is just the spin on Satoshi's design.

1030
01:40:55,486 --> 01:41:00,926
Well, there hasn't been that much new stuff, I think that's for sure.

1031
01:41:00,926 --> 01:41:19,886
It's also why we refer to stuff that's not Bitcoin as altcoins, because most of them
are just code based copies of Bitcoin with some added stuff like master nodes or
proof of stake or whatever was considered to be interesting at some point.

1032
01:41:19,886 --> 01:41:48,526
And some of these coins persisted, that's another interesting perspective, like you
still have Litecoin, which has been around since 2011, you still have Dogecoin,
which has been around since like 2013, you still have Moreno, which has been around
since 2014, you still have Zcash, which has been around since 2016, like they're
still part of the conversation, you still have Dash, you still have...

1033
01:41:49,246 --> 01:42:04,846
Is there anything else? I don't know, but my point is that they did not die, they
still have users, they're still accepted on exchanges, they're still accepted at
payments processors, and it seems like indirectly they're scaling Bitcoin.

1034
01:42:04,846 --> 01:42:30,286
So, people who want to use a coin for payments, and they want to have the same user
experience, minus some of the inefficiencies of using Bitcoin, which sometimes
consists of high fees in times of high demand, or maybe they have to wait, because
there is RBF, so they do have to wait for a confirmation, right now RBF is the
default.

1035
01:42:31,246 --> 01:42:40,606
And for in-person payments, or whatever, they prefer to use one of these established
altcoins, which you can argue are a version of Bitcoin.

1036
01:42:41,726 --> 01:42:44,286
You read the white paper, you look at what these offer...

1037
01:42:44,286 --> 01:42:51,246
Four more minutes, so if you have any other... I mean, if you don't, if you don't
have any other lightning round questions, you know...

1038
01:42:51,246 --> 01:42:55,246
Okay, let me ask you this, what's a shitcoin, in your vision, in four minutes?

1039
01:42:55,246 --> 01:43:00,446
No, I don't know, I think it's like over for that dichotomy now, I think.

1040
01:43:00,446 --> 01:43:17,326
I mean, there used to be an idea that if Bitcoin, everything else is a distraction,
which was true, because Bitcoin was like, again, it's like, it's better for everyone
to be on one network, we can't have, all of the 8 billion people can't start their
own altcoin, that defeats the whole point.

1041
01:43:17,326 --> 01:43:27,326
It's like a language, the more people who speak it, the more valuable it is to be
able to speak it, as network effects, the number one is just going to be the number
one forever.

1042
01:43:28,286 --> 01:43:37,806
And so all this other stuff, you know, these useless coins that are just copies,
they don't achieve anything, and they detract, and they are a distraction, and even
the creators don't believe in them.

1043
01:43:37,966 --> 01:43:55,086
But now, I don't think that's the case, there are many such things, but a lot of
this stuff, we talked about some of it, people have an actual new idea, and they
can't do it on Bitcoin Core, so what are they supposed to do, just nothing, and
that's not going to happen, so I don't know, it doesn't mean anything anymore, I
think.

1044
01:43:55,086 --> 01:44:07,646
Are you still optimistic for Bitcoin? Like, on Twitter, when you tweet, you seem
kind of gloomy sometimes, but in person, you're very cheerful.

1045
01:44:08,606 --> 01:44:34,046
I think, like, oh, I wrote this post about the derangements of Bitcoin, and I think
we will come to a point where either Bitcoin decides that it wants to be something
that pleases new people who joined after 2020, and just reinforces cynical memes,

1046
01:44:34,686 --> 01:44:51,566
or if it wants to become something that's used by 8 billion people, and I think it
will make a choice, and if it doesn't choose the 8 billion people, then I think it
will probably, I think only one coin is going to make it anyway, is my view.

1047
01:44:51,646 --> 01:45:19,086
So, out of every crypto coin that has ever been invented, or ever will be invented,
I think there will really only be one, they will be like, a little bit like how
English has been taking over, English has taken over Canada and Europe, if people in
Spain and Germany do like a business deal, the contracts are like in English, you
can speak English, even though you're from Romania, so.

1048
01:45:20,046 --> 01:45:34,126
That, it's kind of like that type of thing, so there'll be one that is, like, the
main one, and it will be the main one, like, on the internet, and worldwide, I
think, but, you know, who knows.

1049
01:45:35,086 --> 01:45:58,286
Yeah, I just want to thank the 1,000 plus people who joined this livestream, and
especially those who commented, you're super valuable, and I hope I was able to
present your points of view in a way that actually portrays what you were trying to
say, what else, if you enjoyed this interview, I think you should also listen to the
one with Jay Berg,

1050
01:45:58,286 --> 01:46:16,286
because he had some similar, but also different points of view, he basically said
that everyone is wrong in this filter debate, Jay Berg used to be a regular on
Bitcoin Uncensored, and I guess you, Paul, are very familiar with him and his work?

1051
01:46:18,286 --> 01:46:20,286
Yes, a little bit.

1052
01:46:20,286 --> 01:46:22,286
And what else?

1053
01:46:22,286 --> 01:46:24,286
Okay, what else?

1054
01:46:24,286 --> 01:46:32,286
What else did I want to mention? Thank you, Paul, for your time, I know that you're
sick, I'm jet-lagged, it wasn't maybe our best conversation so far.

1055
01:46:32,286 --> 01:46:34,286
Hopefully we can do another one.

1056
01:46:34,286 --> 01:46:42,286
I do want to do another one, and I do want to do, even if you're not a fan of it, a
live demo, even if I do have to install the software, and you guide me through it.

1057
01:46:43,286 --> 01:47:04,286
Okay, we'll do it, and people should be able to download it now, so give it a try,
and then sync the Signet chain, and try to, we have a faucet, there's a link to the
faucet in BitWindows, this is the good thing about BitWindows, since we control it,
we can put all kinds of helpful stuff in there.

1058
01:47:05,286 --> 01:47:20,286
And so that's, so yeah, give it a try, people, and join the telegram, t.me slash
dcinsiders, it's a little joke of mine, Drivechain Insiders.

1059
01:47:21,286 --> 01:47:34,286
It may take you a little while, because there's a lot of spam, so it's a bot, but
like, try to figure out if you're spam, before letting it post.

1060
01:47:34,286 --> 01:47:39,286
But, there you go.

1061
01:47:40,286 --> 01:47:51,286
There's a lot of high-signal stuff happening in there, and very smart people tuning
in to talk, that's where I found Vitalik, he was commenting on something.

1062
01:47:51,286 --> 01:47:56,286
Yeah, he did hang out, he's been hanging out in there, he's been lurking in there.

1063
01:47:57,286 --> 01:48:02,286
Yeah, and then you actually had to turn off people from joining or something?

1064
01:48:02,286 --> 01:48:04,286
Oh yeah.

1065
01:48:04,286 --> 01:48:09,286
You restricted the group for a while, and you had to turn off your DMs, because
people were spamming you?

1066
01:48:10,286 --> 01:48:30,286
Yes, well, you know, that's when the project is a very, when there's all kinds of
serious people in there, everyone wants to hijack the network for, you know, for
attention, to spam, or to scam people and stuff, so it's unfortunate, but it's just
part of how it is.

1067
01:48:31,286 --> 01:48:37,286
But Telegram has very good anti-spam technology, I think, overall.

1068
01:48:41,286 --> 01:48:47,286
Lair2labs.com slash download, try the software today, or this weekend, it can be a
very fun experiment.

1069
01:48:47,286 --> 01:48:50,286
Join the DC Insiders group on Telegram.

1070
01:48:50,286 --> 01:48:55,286
Thank you very much, Paul, and I hope we can schedule something so we can talk about
more topics.

1071
01:48:56,286 --> 01:48:58,286
Alright, let's do it. Okay, see you later.

1072
01:48:58,286 --> 01:48:59,286
Bye.

1073
01:49:00,286 --> 01:49:01,286
Bye.