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Hello and welcome to Drivechain Twitter Spaces hosted by LayerTwo Labs.

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Today is Friday, August 11th, 2023.

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We're thrilled to have another conversation about Drivechain today with you,

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our audience on Twitter Spaces who listen live, as well as those who listen on demand.

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These are recorded spaces.

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We save them on our Twitter feed so that anyone who wants to listen and join

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and learn about Drivechain can do it.

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Drivechain is an idea that's many years in the making.

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In 2015, Paul Sztorc published a blog post on truthcoin.info, his blog on crypto economics,

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and that blog post introduced Drivechain to the world.

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Since then, the sidechain vision has evolved and developed with extensive testnet engagement,

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theoretical analysis, and so much more.

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At this moment, we have more support and discussion than ever before

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on the ways that peer-to-peer sidechains can strengthen Bitcoin.

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Welcome to the stage, Paul. How's it going? Happy Friday.

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Hello. Happy Friday.

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I wonder if any of the people who are critics of Drivechain will be too cowardly to show their face here,

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as is what they normally do.

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Yeah.

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They talk a big game on Twitter, hiding behind tweets,

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and then, when they're invited to debate, they refuse.

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So we'll see what happens.

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Yeah, because we all know that Drivechain is the same as BSV, so not even worth discussing.

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That's why we have so many supporters at layer2crypt.com.

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Anyway, don't we have a guest? I thought we had a guest MC.

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Oh, something came up, but he will co-host at a future week.

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Oh, okay.

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Yeah, I just learned that.

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So he's busy today, but hopefully he'll be able to join us next week or another time soon.

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Today he'll just be listening, he mentioned.

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Okay, great.

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Yeah, there are some critics of Drivechain, like Shinobi, who goes by BrianTrolls on Twitter.

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I reached out to him in a tweet months ago, saying,

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we invite you to debate, Paul, you can have…

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Yeah, I said it on Twitter for years.

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I said, I will do a space, I'll do a podcast.

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Yeah, I tweeted to him saying,

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you can decide with us on a fair venue and neutral moderator, all that.

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I offered him whatever terms he wanted to propose,

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and he just declined, saying that Paul would…

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If I recall his response, it was a tweet, it's still up.

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It was something like, Paul will just use clever tricks to try to win the debate.

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So he thinks you're too tricky, too many complicated details to discuss.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, if only I should instead use really, really dumb arguments that aren't good.

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That would help him win.

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Yeah.

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Well, there you go.

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I mean, again, this is part of why we do the space,

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is to just say, to make ourselves vulnerable, in a sense.

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So it's like, if you want to come here and say whatever,

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like Bob McElrath has come many times, sort of still isn't convinced.

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I literally believe it is literally true that he is having some kind of mental breakdown or something.

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Nothing of what he says really makes any sense to me.

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People have tried to message him and ask him what he's talking about.

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He is convinced.

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This is like, if Drivechain were like a big chapter, like a huge book with many chapters,

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and I'm over here on chapter eight, trying to get us to prediction markets,

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really cool stuff, ending the age of scams completely,

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and ushering in a new media economy built on Bitcoin,

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everything from Namecoin, prediction markets, CoinNews, etc.,

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full infinite scale, infinite privacy.

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I'm trying to do this.

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I'm trying to have this whole book, and it's literally the first paragraph of chapter one,

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that the difference between a block size increase and Bitcoin 300.

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So it's like, unfortunately, because of people like that,

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I really feel like the entire world has to suffer.

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But maybe, yeah, he's right.

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Maybe I'm wrong about the first chapter of the first sentence of the first book,

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which is this very, very, very simple idea that what's considered required

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is what is mandatory for running a full node.

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That's what that means.

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And other stuff could, might, or might not be required in some other unrelated sense.

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Like, if you want to run Lightning, you have to run a Lightning node.

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That's required to accept Lightning.

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But it's not literally required that you use Lightning in order to use Bitcoin.

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And, of course, also, it's not literally required that you mine in order to use Bitcoin.

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So a lot of people have these weird views of, like,

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they're just trying to connect all these weird dots.

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None of those dots are there.

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It's just like keeping everything.

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So a lot of people mix up to this day.

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layer one and layer two, which is, like, you would think would be the thing to get right.

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That's the whole point.

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The whole point of the entire thing is that the large blockers wanted large blocks.

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They want to pay.

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That is what they wanted.

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And the small blockers did not want to pay.

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So if you can't keep those two things separate, then, like,

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what are you even doing in this conversation?

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I don't understand it.

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Welcome to the stage, Dallas.

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Yeah.

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People come up.

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It's much better when people come up and ask.

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Whatever is on their mind.

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Go ahead, Dallas.

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Yeah.

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It's only after months and months and months of nonsense from Bob McElrath that I'm eventually just like, listen, this guy's crazy.

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And same with Shannot.

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Like, you know, I actually do believe, I hate to interrupt and go on a rant here,

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but it's like if you actually look up these people, like, no offense, all the drivechain supporters,

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like, you know, and it's like one out of every 10,000 people has, like, literal schizophrenia or something.

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And it's like, what is that ratio on Twitter?

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And what is that ratio in the Bitcoin community?

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Like, this is just the these are like people who are just I honestly just think they're crazy.

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And there's only like four or five, six of them.

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But anyway, with that ominous ad hominem attack in mind, why don't you bravely ask your question or whatever?

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Yeah.

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Thank you guys for the invite.

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I mean, obviously, and just for what it's worth, I'm coming into this with like a super open mind, just looking to learn.

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You know, Paul, you were nice enough to answer some of the questions I had for you that, you know, I had initially.

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And those may be good points of discussion.

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I think like I'm coming through this, you know, I'm building a product myself.

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And so a lot of times I'm thinking about this through kind of what is the experience like for the end user?

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Where do the risks exist for the end user?

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And that might or may not be helpful context.

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At some point you mentioned Paul, right?

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And not to like and I know it's sort of nuanced.

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You just said like, you know, obviously drivechains would help like end the scams.

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Obviously, I think you'd agree like the scams could continue, obviously, just happening on, you know, different sidechains.

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Right. But I think the point you're probably getting at is that, you know, scams attached to like another token presenting saying, oh, there's some need to launch whatever.

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Solana, Matic, some other kind of bullshit where it's like ultimately not really needed.

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Is that kind of a more accurate framing?

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What I've been doing lately is I go back and I find my greatest hits, tweets, and now you can add them to the highlights.

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And I think this is an ingenious decision by Twitter slash whatever Elon Musk slash X, whatever we're calling it.

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I'm going to continue to call it Twitter, I think, because I still call it the Sears Tower and I still call it the Tappan Zee Bridge.

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Anyway, so I have one recently that I added to the highlights about this topic.

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And the scam, the idea of the scams is people have always scammed and people always will scam.

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And it has nothing to do with us to some extent.

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But there is a specific type of scam that is unique to our place in time, which is like the crypto token scam.

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Now, every single – to get people to buy something, they need a reason.

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I hope that this is 100% clear.

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They need some kind of narrative that says right now you have $200 of cash and you need to swap that for my thing, $200 worth of Bitcoin or $200 worth of let's just say Solana.

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Because Solana is a case where like A16Z was involved and they gave themselves like 40% or whatever and they like went on a big spending spree.

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And it's like EVM, fast block time, no one cared about the long run fate of the chain is my take on the situation.

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So they need a reason.

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And that reason is, well, this thing is like Bitcoin but different.

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So I hope still you're like kind of more or less 100% on board with all this.

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So every time – you need a reason.

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And that reason is always – it takes this form where it says this thing is like Bitcoin or it could be the next Bitcoin or whatever.

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But the reason is why don't I just buy Bitcoin if Bitcoin is so great?

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Okay, this thing is like Bitcoin but it has smart contracts.

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This thing is like Bitcoin but it has privacy.

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So the argument always takes this one form of saying, well, this thing is like Bitcoin but underscore blank.

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And the side undermines that narrative completely because it just says, well, if you wanted but underscore blank, you could just – there's a Bitcoin sidechain for that.

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Or it's such a dead feature that no one even bothered to make such a thing.

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The other way in which it kills the scam narrative is that if my – the proper organization of all of this would be to have the BitAsset sidechain.

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Sidechain all by itself to issue assets, which we have already made.

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And it just has a little button you can click and you can issue things.

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This is a good thing.

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This is exactly what is done whenever anyone starts a corporation.

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So unfortunately, because of the high percentage of scams in Bitcoin, people in Bitcoin have started to unfortunately fall into sin and disrepute.

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Because instead of doing normal things like respecting investor sovereignty, we say that – because you can't say like we're going to ban pump and dumps.

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But what if it relies on someone saying that the investor cannot choose what they do with their own money?

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If you have a briefcase full of cash, you can light it on fire or you can use it to buy goods and services.

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And if you want to invest it in a scam, then that is your right as an investor.

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This is the principle of investor sovereignty.

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It's your money.

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If you violate that principle, then no one – you'll never be able to invest in Bitcoin at all.

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Someone will tell you that's a pump and dump scam and you're not allowed to buy it.

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So we Bitcoiners especially should know that we must respect investor sovereignty.

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But then, of course, people – they see someone buying Ethereum and they think, oh, that person is being scammed.

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And in many cases, they're right.

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But the point is it's not up to you.

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So this is kind of a rambling answer, but I hope that you're getting sort of something out of it, which is to say that my configuration involves there being a bid-asset sidechain where Bitcoin is money and Bitcoin pays every transaction fee.

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But where you can also issue stuff, which is exactly how the stock market works.

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It's how the bond market works.

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It's how the art market works.

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And these things are not DAOs or they're not like cryptographically superior things.

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They're not like amazing things.

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But it is a place where you can trade these assets.

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And in the real world, people pay thousands of dollars a year for a carta to manage a cap table.

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And you also have to pay a fee in Delaware when you will register a corporation to see how many shares are there so that everyone knows how many shares there are so that you know what percentage of the company you own.

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And you also have to do – Bruce Fenton, who is a leading expert in this field, can tell you there's all kinds of problems with just moving the shares around.

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You never legally even own the shares.

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They're held by intermediaries, and you actually have no legal rights, and there's terrible tax vulnerability.

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And so in these ways – I'm not saying it jumps from being zero to 100% perfect immediately.

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But it is certainly an incremental improvement if nothing is lost for the right type of person.

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So in this configuration, all of the new tokens, the new assets, they're either replaced by sidechains or there's a BitAsset sidechain where all of them are trapped in like a little zoo, and they can then be compared to each other but not to Bitcoin.

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You see, you're in the zoo.

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You're walking around.

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You're a human.

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You can come and leave the zoo.

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But the BitAssets are all trapped in the BitAsset sidechain, and anyone can make them at any time, and this is a good thing.

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And many of them may be scams, but you know that's really not the point.

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It's unfortunate that if you advocate for freedom ever, you often end up defending people who do bad things.

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But that's – it kind of comes with the job.

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If you defend privacy, you defend people who misuse that privacy, and they do things that maybe are illegal or maybe things that you wouldn't agree with personally.

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But yeah, we want there to be the idea of having all this other stuff.

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People do it anyway.

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They already do it in – they've done it with Counterparty.

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They did it with colored coins.

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They've been doing it for years.

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They're not going to stop.

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If they're going to do it, we don't want all of – you know, Ethereum takes all that now, and it's kind of – what it comes down to is this philosophy of like do we want Bitcoin to win, or are we just going to be –

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really complacent and overconfident and say, well, Bitcoin has already won, and whether or not it does things that people like, we don't care about.

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So I'm opposed to that idea that when you have a lot of happy people using Counterparty, and then they become unhappy, and then they go to Ethereum ERC20, I see that as Bitcoin failing.

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But a lot of people say the important thing is that Bitcoin continued to be a digital rock, and no one ever do anything else with it, even if you respect the digital rock thing 100%.

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Like Neighbor A uses it as a digital rock, and Neighbor B uses it for something else.

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No, what these people are saying is that Neighbor A has got to come into Neighbor B's house and kick down their door and hold a gun to their children's heads and say, you can never use – this can only be used as a rock.

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I don't care that you want to use it to cure cancer or to make beautiful sculptures.

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You can only use it as a rock.

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Never do this again.

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And that's how I see these other people.

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It's ridiculous.

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We want all these people to be using Bitcoin.

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They're not harming any other use, and they're using it their own way.

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They have the sovereignty.

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It's like they have the briefcase full of cash.

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So that's kind of a long answer, but maybe – because there's so many different types of scam, you see.

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There's like a Litecoin-shaped scam where it's like, this is Bitcoin, but with faster block time.

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But then there's also just stuff that's like an ICO or an NFT.

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The NFT stuff is really more arch.

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It's not even –

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So the NFT stuff, that's better if that's all in its own chain somewhere because then it won't be really compared to Bitcoin, even though, of course, it's a rival investment with Bitcoin, but it's not really.

217
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So, yeah, that's kind of like my big speech about that, which is that it won't end all scams.

218
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And it won't – the scammers are not just going to stop scamming and start using sidechains.

219
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Those are caricatures of my belief.

220
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My belief is that the scams are only because things are mimicking Bitcoin.

221
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It's a Batesian mimicry.

222
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It's like the animals.

223
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You have the moth that looks like a face, and it's poisonous, and then the other moths resemble it.

224
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They free ride off of it.

225
00:17:39,679 --> 00:17:43,679
They say, this is like Bitcoin, but different in this way.

226
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So that's kind of some of my ideas about that.

227
00:17:48,679 --> 00:17:50,679
Yeah, I think that makes sense, Paul.

228
00:17:50,679 --> 00:17:53,679
I appreciate the thorough answer, and I agree with it.

229
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I think freedom means freedom to do things that aren't correct or freedom to fail or whatever, and I'm all for people having choice.

230
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And I can understand sort of the lens through which people are viewing drivechains.

231
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It's like – I'm not saying it's like ordinals, but it's like something that you could either be a part of or not.

232
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And if you want to just be on chain and not be bothered, then you don't even need to acknowledge and be hindered sort of by what happens over there.

233
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And I think that's – if a setup like that can win, then that's kind of what you – that's kind of the best option you could hope for, right, because you're free to participate or free to opt out.

234
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I have a couple of other – I mean, I have many questions for you, but I want to try to keep them brief and not hog the mic, obviously.

235
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So question, whenever there is a sidechain via drivechain – I don't know.

236
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I always struggle with the proper terminology.

237
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You're not launching drivechains, right, although that seems like the natural thing to say language-wise.

238
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But who's actually – what other costs sort of come into play with maintaining the action of what happens on a sidechain, right?

239
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Because if you move on to Lightning, you obviously got Lightning nodes and people pay a cost to run those nodes.

240
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But if – and this kind of piggybacks on the question I asked you with what percentage of fees that happen on one of these sidechains would be earned by miners.

241
00:19:16,679 --> 00:19:18,679
And you said it should be 100 percent.

242
00:19:18,679 --> 00:19:22,679
And the question's like, okay, what percentage would be taken by the creator of a sidechain?

243
00:19:22,679 --> 00:19:24,679
And you said that should be zero, right?

244
00:19:24,679 --> 00:19:31,679
So there's essentially kind of like no financial income, let's say, earned by somebody who wants to launch a privacy chain.

245
00:19:31,679 --> 00:19:33,679
And then there's a bug, right?

246
00:19:33,679 --> 00:19:41,679
Is it just basically – are we sort of relying just on like pure incentives for motivated individuals to go ahead and like fix that?

247
00:19:41,679 --> 00:19:53,679
And or like are there any other costs associated with like maintaining all the action happening on that sidechain until it comes time to kind of stamp whatever back on chain?

248
00:19:53,679 --> 00:19:55,679
Does that make sense in the way I'm asking it?

249
00:19:55,679 --> 00:19:57,679
If not, I'm happy to give more clarity.

250
00:19:57,679 --> 00:19:58,679
It's many different things.

251
00:19:58,679 --> 00:20:04,679
So first of all, the terminology, like unfortunately the terminology is what you might call foobar.

252
00:20:04,711 --> 00:20:11,711
What I think the correct terminology is to say that there are – there's Bitcoin mainchain and there are sidechains.

253
00:20:11,711 --> 00:20:18,711
And then there's like a bridge – there's a technique for moving back and forth. And the technique is whatever.

254
00:20:18,711 --> 00:20:23,711
And so one of those techniques was Blockstream had this skip list thing that they never really built.

255
00:20:23,711 --> 00:20:31,711
And then there's the federated technique, which I regard as like basically fake, but we can get into that if you want.

256
00:20:31,711 --> 00:20:38,711
And then drivechain is like the technique for going back and forth. But now what has happened is that all the terminology has been ruined.

257
00:20:38,711 --> 00:20:47,711
And at this point, we should probably just start calling them drivechains, like the thing that you send your money to under BIP300.

258
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So the question of the developer compensation or the – well, let's do the blocks progressing, like the nodes.

259
00:20:55,711 --> 00:21:06,711
Everyone's going to run full nodes if they want to use this service. And if there are no nodes, then the network will just go away and die, which is like –

260
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but the people who want to use the service, they should be running the nodes. It should be a lot like how Bitcoin was where there's many people who –

261
00:21:13,711 --> 00:21:20,711
the only real way to have a wallet is to have a node. So node and wallet kind of really mean the same thing.

262
00:21:20,711 --> 00:21:28,711
But for some reason, it's not. For various historical reasons and people selling wallets, I could go into a long tangent about this,

263
00:21:28,711 --> 00:21:34,711
but the short version is like there's not a lot of good business models in Bitcoin, so people started to get into the wallet business.

264
00:21:34,711 --> 00:21:43,711
They sell like hardware wallets. They sell like steel wallets, crypto steel or whatever.

265
00:21:43,711 --> 00:21:51,711
So wallet started to mean like a thing that you could buy that was not a node, but really it's like a thing that's just like a key store.

266
00:21:51,711 --> 00:22:00,711
But without going into too much of a tangent there, the nodes will be the users, and they run and manage everything.

267
00:22:00,711 --> 00:22:08,711
Occasionally, every 10 – they need to have blocks, so those blocks are timestamped on L1. That's the merge mining part.

268
00:22:08,711 --> 00:22:15,711
So merge mining was invented by Satoshi in 2010, and it's been used in Namecoin ever since.

269
00:22:15,711 --> 00:22:27,711
And it is – I don't know. There's like a different set of mysteries about that because I believe only like 25 people ever really understood what it was.

270
00:22:27,711 --> 00:22:31,711
So we could get into that slightly if you're curious about that.

271
00:22:32,711 --> 00:22:45,711
As a developer compensation, I have a very, very different view on it than like – so yes, it's true that software has to be maintained and has to be created by genius individuals, sort of.

272
00:22:45,711 --> 00:22:47,711
I mean that's just kind of how it is.

273
00:22:48,711 --> 00:23:01,711
However, right now, not only is there no – like the frame that you kind of give is like these people need income, so they must get money from the sidechain or something like that.

274
00:23:02,711 --> 00:23:20,711
Really, I don't think it actually works like that per se because if we relied on paying these people – if it was fee for service, it would never work because software is too complicated for normal people to read and audit, and it's too easy for them to just steal everyone's money.

275
00:23:20,711 --> 00:23:43,711
So the selfish motivation of someone saying like, I will pay you $80,000 a year or $800,000 a year to build and maintain this sidechain, that just doesn't exist because it's impossible to actually build – it's impossible for you to understand if you've been given the software or not because software is just very hard to understand.

276
00:23:44,711 --> 00:23:46,711
So that whole avenue is just dead anyway.

277
00:23:46,711 --> 00:23:58,711
The real cost to making the software is that right now you have to go through the Bitcoin Core development process, which is basically an impassable concrete wall that no one can get through.

278
00:23:58,711 --> 00:24:00,711
So basically no one can get through.

279
00:24:00,711 --> 00:24:15,711
I mean if you have like 12 years of experience and you know the right people and you have a great idea that no one else thought and you blah, blah, blah, do all these other things, you are independently wealthy and you can like wait, then you can get through the process, but really no one else can.

280
00:24:15,711 --> 00:24:29,711
So what sidechains do is they lower that cost like 98% because right now it's infinite, and then you merely need to be a very remarkable person to just write the code and do it.

281
00:24:30,711 --> 00:24:56,711
I could go on more and more rambling tangents about this, but the process of writing code is a creative process that is very similar to like a musician making a piece of music or an author writing a book, which is like you enjoy having accomplished it, and part of the thought of having – you say, oh, there could be more privacy.

282
00:24:56,711 --> 00:25:07,711
Part of that thought is incomplete until the code is written and tested, and so it kind of – there's kind of like no proposal until the code exists.

283
00:25:07,711 --> 00:25:16,711
So the difficult thing is getting from the open source code exists to Bitcoiners can use it.

284
00:25:17,711 --> 00:25:29,711
There's an impassable concrete wall that's 12 feet thick and 500 feet high between those two things, and the other things are really not that important.

285
00:25:30,711 --> 00:25:46,711
The reason the miners get 100% of the fees is because they control either which transactions make it into the L1 block or they control indirectly what happens on L2 since the hash has to be inserted in L1.

286
00:25:46,711 --> 00:25:56,711
So since they control it, there is a theorem in economics about ownership and control always have to go together because if they don't, then there's an incentive misalignment.

287
00:25:57,711 --> 00:26:03,711
So the miners control which transactions make it in.

288
00:26:03,711 --> 00:26:06,711
The transactions control the transaction fee of the block.

289
00:26:06,711 --> 00:26:09,711
They're the fuel powering all this.

290
00:26:09,711 --> 00:26:15,711
So they will get in this setup – and probably in every setup, really.

291
00:26:15,711 --> 00:26:25,711
This is the irony is that even something like Liquid or a ZK-proof thing, the miners can always censor any of the return messages or any of the check-in messages.

292
00:26:26,711 --> 00:26:33,711
So the irony is that everything has the 51% are stealing assumption.

293
00:26:33,711 --> 00:26:38,711
Paul, can I ask then, related to that, isn't there another factor at play?

294
00:26:38,711 --> 00:27:01,711
Maybe it's small, maybe not, but the cost of the capital needing to be in the sidechain for that time period, considering that the sidechain miner will be paid on the sidechain and need to pay the mainchain miner on the mainchain?

295
00:27:02,711 --> 00:27:04,711
Yeah, they won't necessarily.

296
00:27:04,711 --> 00:27:08,711
I mean it's like they exchange at a one-to-one peg in one direction.

297
00:27:08,711 --> 00:27:11,711
So it's kind of a little bit like you have an ATM.

298
00:27:11,711 --> 00:27:15,711
I think a good metaphor for sidechains is like the drivechain is like the ATM.

299
00:27:15,711 --> 00:27:19,711
And then like checking account is like take your pick.

300
00:27:19,711 --> 00:27:21,711
You have checking account and cash.

301
00:27:21,711 --> 00:27:22,711
One of those is the mainchain.

302
00:27:22,711 --> 00:27:23,711
One of those is the sidechain.

303
00:27:23,711 --> 00:27:25,711
It doesn't really matter which.

304
00:27:26,711 --> 00:27:34,711
Now, it's true that if you have cash, you're sort of theoretically paying the interest rate you could have gotten on your checking account or your savings account.

305
00:27:34,711 --> 00:27:48,711
But there's also this concept in finance called the convenience yield, which is saying you keep a certain amount of cash in your pocket to deal with unexpected needs to pay for things.

306
00:27:48,711 --> 00:27:53,711
And same for things like oil, like people keep heating oil in their house because they don't know when the weather will be cold.

307
00:27:53,711 --> 00:28:03,711
So it's true that if instead they could invest that money in the stock market and then when it's cold, they could buy heating oil, ship it to their house, and turn it on.

308
00:28:03,711 --> 00:28:05,711
But this just takes too long.

309
00:28:05,711 --> 00:28:08,711
So the idea that you derive the convenience yield.

310
00:28:08,711 --> 00:28:16,711
The people who have coins on the sidechain, they move the coins over there for the same reason that you would withdraw from an ATM or deposit to an ATM.

311
00:28:16,711 --> 00:28:17,711
It makes no difference.

312
00:28:17,711 --> 00:28:20,711
Because whatever it is, you prefer the money to be in the other form.

313
00:28:21,711 --> 00:28:26,711
But exactly like the ATM, you don't have to overthink it too much.

314
00:28:26,711 --> 00:28:42,711
You don't worry about it too much because it's not like cash has a floating exchange rate that crashes against checking account money or checking account money could be worth – $20 in a checking account could be worth a $10 bill today and then a $50 bill tomorrow.

315
00:28:42,711 --> 00:28:43,711
That doesn't happen.

316
00:28:43,711 --> 00:28:46,711
So that is the analogy.

317
00:28:46,711 --> 00:28:56,711
And so there really is no – if the cost of capital is too high in one or the other, then that person will just move the coins across.

318
00:28:56,711 --> 00:29:02,711
And so actually at any given point in time, the coins should be wherever they are most valuable.

319
00:29:02,711 --> 00:29:10,711
And no one is really paying a cost or even an opportunity cost of capital I think in any real sense.

320
00:29:10,711 --> 00:29:13,711
But maybe you're asking about something else.

321
00:29:13,711 --> 00:29:14,711
I don't know.

322
00:29:15,711 --> 00:29:19,711
Aaron Paul, can I ask you just to drill in on one of those points?

323
00:29:19,711 --> 00:29:27,711
So one of the things I had asked you was about sort of maintaining supply integrity.

324
00:29:27,711 --> 00:29:37,711
And you obviously I think clearly answered, look, if you've got Bitcoin sitting in the UTXO that is for that sidechain, obviously write that.

325
00:29:37,711 --> 00:29:42,711
If there's 20 Bitcoin sitting in there, it's not like you can create more Bitcoin on chain.

326
00:29:42,711 --> 00:29:43,711
I totally get that.

327
00:29:43,711 --> 00:29:50,711
The other point in there, the nuance is like you said, hey, there could be a bug on a particular sidechain that could have an inflation bug.

328
00:29:50,711 --> 00:29:54,711
And even though people playing around with it think there's 20 Bitcoin, there's a bug.

329
00:29:54,711 --> 00:29:56,711
And then on that sidechain, there ends up being more.

330
00:29:56,711 --> 00:30:01,711
And then there's sort of like you said, there's a bank run.

331
00:30:01,711 --> 00:30:04,711
And then that sidechain's credibility is sort of destroyed.

332
00:30:04,711 --> 00:30:05,711
But obviously, be sure.

333
00:30:05,711 --> 00:30:09,711
In that case, there'd be some people who would get negatively impacted, no doubt.

334
00:30:10,711 --> 00:30:25,711
In a scenario like that, or even a scenario of catching a bug that could lead to that, how does the dynamic work between the live version of the most up-to-date version, let's say the code for a sidechain?

335
00:30:25,711 --> 00:30:27,711
And who could actually update that?

336
00:30:27,711 --> 00:30:31,711
And do users of that sidechain have to sort of opt into the new version?

337
00:30:31,711 --> 00:30:35,711
Could a malicious actor just update that?

338
00:30:35,711 --> 00:30:37,711
How does that dynamic actually work?

339
00:30:37,711 --> 00:30:40,711
That's a very interesting and advanced question.

340
00:30:40,711 --> 00:30:42,711
So that's much better than the question I normally get.

341
00:30:42,711 --> 00:30:51,711
So first of all, it's the idea of like the not my problem idea is the bank run situation where it's kind of like the sidechain has an inflation bug.

342
00:30:51,711 --> 00:30:59,711
The sidechain itself only has like let's say it has 200 coins on it or something, 200 Bitcoin on it.

343
00:30:59,711 --> 00:31:01,711
There's an inflation bug.

344
00:31:02,711 --> 00:31:22,711
And the theory of BIP300 is that if you own coins on L2, you will be able to withdraw them on L1 if nothing goes wrong, which is similar for every L2, everything including Lightning, including Liquid, especially custodial things like an FTX.

345
00:31:23,711 --> 00:31:31,711
You have coins, and in your mind you have a theoretical hope, an aspirational hope that the coins will be able to come back.

346
00:31:31,711 --> 00:31:36,711
Now, the way that works is the sidechain broadcasts this with one withdrawal hash.

347
00:31:36,711 --> 00:31:40,711
All the withdrawal information is compressed to one hash.

348
00:31:40,711 --> 00:31:46,711
And the sidechain calculates all that sort of perfectly and automatically, the same for everyone.

349
00:31:46,711 --> 00:31:51,711
It's deterministic, procedurally generated by the rules of the sidechain.

350
00:31:51,711 --> 00:31:58,711
Now, if there's an inflation bug, that will suck because the rules of the sidechain now mean that everyone has infinite coins.

351
00:31:58,711 --> 00:32:05,711
And so whoever is going to withdraw the 200 first is going to get it, even if the hashes are in a perfect agreement.

352
00:32:05,711 --> 00:32:10,711
So there will be no basis for anyone saying that someone should get the coins on L1 versus someone else.

353
00:32:10,711 --> 00:32:14,711
It will be whose ox is gored, so to speak.

354
00:32:14,711 --> 00:32:24,711
And at that point, you have a really big problem because before you had something that showed exactly who should get the coins, but now there's no way of knowing who should get the coins.

355
00:32:24,711 --> 00:32:33,711
And this is the bank run situation where you just – everyone will probably try to withdraw instantly, and there may be drama about this.

356
00:32:33,711 --> 00:32:36,711
The point, though, is that this doesn't affect L1.

357
00:32:36,711 --> 00:32:40,711
People on L1 can just sleep soundly at night.

358
00:32:41,711 --> 00:32:48,711
They don't necessarily need to – they may take an interest in caring about it the same way we might care about any catastrophe that happens anywhere.

359
00:32:48,711 --> 00:32:53,711
So sometimes people have a weird critique where they say, well, this drama will affect Bitcoiners.

360
00:32:53,711 --> 00:33:00,711
But it's kind of like anything could affect anything else, like that horrible – in Maui, that horrible fire.

361
00:33:00,711 --> 00:33:06,711
We could all be affected by that in an emotional or sympathetic way.

362
00:33:06,711 --> 00:33:09,711
So there could be – anyone could be affected by anything.

363
00:33:09,711 --> 00:33:15,711
The point is the BIP300 rules will just let – they'll let someone withdraw the 200 coins on L1.

364
00:33:15,711 --> 00:33:18,711
And so that is the bank run.

365
00:33:18,711 --> 00:33:27,711
Now, the question is – a separate question is how does a sidechain update perhaps to fix that bug or other bugs or just to do upgrades?

366
00:33:27,711 --> 00:33:38,711
Well, it happens to interestingly be the case that the sidechain can do its own version of the soft fork, which is to say there can be a line, version 1, version 2, version 3, version 4.

367
00:33:38,711 --> 00:33:51,711
One unique line – so it can't be like version 1, version 2, version 2B, 2A, 2C, and then version 3 of each of those.

368
00:33:51,711 --> 00:33:58,711
That doesn't work. But what does work is if you have iterated versions, a line, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8,

369
00:33:58,711 --> 00:34:12,711
where if each of those ensures that they always calculate the same hash, the BIP300 return hash, that is basically the equivalent of the Bitcoin UTXO set,

370
00:34:12,711 --> 00:34:15,711
and that is the equivalent of the sidechain's equivalent of a soft fork.

371
00:34:15,711 --> 00:34:17,711
You release a new version of the software.

372
00:34:17,711 --> 00:34:23,711
It's fully compatible with the old version because they give the same withdrawal hash.

373
00:34:23,711 --> 00:34:30,711
So in the important way that matters, which is who gets the L1 coins, it's the same.

374
00:34:30,711 --> 00:34:32,711
However, it can be different in other ways.

375
00:34:32,711 --> 00:34:36,711
So you can have stuff where it's just like what we do with Bitcoin where we have the op-nops.

376
00:34:36,711 --> 00:34:38,711
You can have sidechain stuff.

377
00:34:38,711 --> 00:34:45,711
You can have blank stuff that says this op always works in every case.

378
00:34:45,711 --> 00:34:47,711
It's to anyone who can spend or whatever.

379
00:34:47,711 --> 00:34:51,711
It never throws an error in the script interpreter.

380
00:34:51,711 --> 00:34:54,711
This is how Bitcoin soft forks mostly work.

381
00:34:54,711 --> 00:35:05,711
But then we release a new version where we say, under these conditions of rule breaking, the script interpreter will throw an error and the block will be invalid.

382
00:35:05,711 --> 00:35:14,711
And then if enough people upgrade, including 51% of the miners, the blockchain will never admit a block that breaks those rules.

383
00:35:14,711 --> 00:35:19,711
And in that way, we have a new op code that enforces new rules.

384
00:35:19,711 --> 00:35:21,711
And the sidechain can do something similar.

385
00:35:21,711 --> 00:35:35,711
Whether or not they can fix the inflation bug with a soft fork in time is, of course, totally up to circumstances of that specific case.

386
00:35:35,711 --> 00:35:43,711
It may not be possible.

387
00:35:43,711 --> 00:35:46,711
Yeah, I think I'm tracking what you're saying.

388
00:35:47,711 --> 00:35:54,711
But if I'm just a user, let's say you're just a non-technical user.

389
00:35:54,711 --> 00:35:59,711
There's some sidechain that has a utility use case that you like.

390
00:35:59,711 --> 00:36:01,711
You want to move some coins over.

391
00:36:01,711 --> 00:36:04,711
The current version of it works great.

392
00:36:05,711 --> 00:36:15,711
Is it really up to whoever deployed the code for that sidechain to be able to push a whole new version?

393
00:36:15,711 --> 00:36:22,711
Do you have any way of not being an inheritor of bad updates that they may push over there?

394
00:36:22,711 --> 00:36:25,711
I'm not saying that that's necessarily unique in this case.

395
00:36:26,711 --> 00:36:31,711
There's actually several different definitions of soft fork.

396
00:36:31,711 --> 00:36:39,711
And anyone who reads my blog knows that actually I have written two and a half posts exactly on this topic,

397
00:36:39,711 --> 00:36:44,711
complaining that actually the terminology has multiple definitions and is not consistent.

398
00:36:44,711 --> 00:36:48,711
And some of the definitions are actually even opposite of each other.

399
00:36:49,711 --> 00:36:55,711
And what we should have done a long time ago is we picked new words and redefined everything so that it actually made sense.

400
00:36:55,711 --> 00:36:57,711
But no one agreed with me back then.

401
00:36:57,711 --> 00:37:02,711
But the soft fork, the way I use it, it has the property that you don't have to upgrade.

402
00:37:02,711 --> 00:37:07,711
Because as I said, they release a new version, and that version does whatever.

403
00:37:07,711 --> 00:37:10,711
But your version will get the same withdrawal hash.

404
00:37:10,711 --> 00:37:13,711
So you don't have to upgrade.

405
00:37:13,711 --> 00:37:20,711
And your ability to – the fact that you aren't forced at gunpoint to upgrade,

406
00:37:20,711 --> 00:37:29,711
that actually protects you against bad future updates because you can decline them.

407
00:37:31,711 --> 00:37:34,711
But this is a view that is, for example, not shared by Luke Dash, Jr.

408
00:37:34,711 --> 00:37:40,711
and other people who have views that I think are not incoherent.

409
00:37:40,711 --> 00:37:46,711
But the soft fork I view as a tool to resist the tyranny of the developer,

410
00:37:46,711 --> 00:37:52,711
and also the soft fork has the property that it helps the developer also.

411
00:37:52,711 --> 00:37:55,711
Because no one can go to the developers.

412
00:37:55,711 --> 00:38:00,711
You could say all the developers are five people, and their names are known, and they're all arrested.

413
00:38:00,711 --> 00:38:04,711
And they say, you guys must release this new software.

414
00:38:04,711 --> 00:38:10,711
Well, the developers can rightly say that won't make any difference.

415
00:38:10,711 --> 00:38:14,711
But if people are forced to go along with upgrades, then they can't say that.

416
00:38:14,711 --> 00:38:18,711
Whatever they ship will be – makes all the difference.

417
00:38:18,711 --> 00:38:28,711
So in that sense, the soft fork protects you from – you don't have to take any of the updates.

418
00:38:28,711 --> 00:38:33,711
And whenever anyone releases an update, it's sort of like a ratchet where it's only turning one way.

419
00:38:34,711 --> 00:38:40,711
It's kind of like either the upgrade will just be generally better in every way,

420
00:38:40,711 --> 00:38:45,711
in which case people will voluntarily adopt it, or it will not be.

421
00:38:45,711 --> 00:38:50,711
Come on up, Mr. Hoddle. Don't be shy. You're welcome to speak here.

422
00:38:50,711 --> 00:38:55,711
Come on up, Mr. Hoddle. You're welcome to speak here. You'll get a fair hearing.

423
00:38:55,711 --> 00:39:02,711
Speak your mind. You'll have plenty of time to make your points clearly.

424
00:39:02,711 --> 00:39:04,711
Yeah, or remain cowardly in the audience.

425
00:39:04,711 --> 00:39:08,711
Yeah, just stay down there cowardly, listening.

426
00:39:10,711 --> 00:39:14,711
Paul, while we wait on his decision or indecision to come up – oh, there he is.

427
00:39:14,711 --> 00:39:21,711
Paul, that was the case. SegWit, I mean, people that didn't upgrade still have a burden of a bigger block size.

428
00:39:21,711 --> 00:39:24,711
So it's not entirely fair to say if you don't upgrade, you're not affected.

429
00:39:24,711 --> 00:39:27,711
You're most definitely affected with the soft fork if you don't upgrade.

430
00:39:27,711 --> 00:39:31,711
It's just we can't upgrade Bitcoin through hard force.

431
00:39:31,711 --> 00:39:35,711
So we have to do it through soft force. It's the only choice we have.

432
00:39:36,709 --> 00:39:54,709
Mr. Hoddle, this is just a perfect example of you being very unfair, because what we were talking about before you joined was sidechains themselves upgrading through their own version of a soft fork, which works differently than mainchain soft forks.

433
00:39:54,709 --> 00:40:18,709
But you freely assume, you just join, and you freely assume in the middle of the conversation that we're talking about Bitcoin L1 soft forks in the context of activating BIP300. And just like so many of your other assumptions, presumptuous and incorrect, you make a mistake because you're just so hasty to be negative and you're so unfair in your appraisal of conversation.

434
00:40:19,709 --> 00:40:22,709
Yes, you literally had no idea what you were talking about.

435
00:40:22,709 --> 00:40:35,709
You're right. I heard soft forks and then I heard you don't have to upgrade and it doesn't affect you. And then you're right. I immediately thought about L1s. I didn't really think about it. You were talking about sidechains at the time. So you're right. My apologies on that.

436
00:40:35,709 --> 00:40:40,709
You should get used to repeating that you're right phrase because you're going to be saying it a lot.

437
00:40:40,709 --> 00:40:46,709
Well, as of right now, you've been wrong a lot. So, so far, I'm on the right side of history here, not you.

438
00:40:46,709 --> 00:40:48,709
What's the next thing I'm wrong about?

439
00:40:48,709 --> 00:41:00,709
I mean, dude, we could go back from 2015 about the having not increasing the price, about the whole small block, big block argument. You thought Jehan and the miners were going to be able to pull it off.

440
00:41:00,709 --> 00:41:03,709
But Mr. Haro, do you work for Garzik?

441
00:41:03,709 --> 00:41:04,709
I work for Garzik.

442
00:41:04,709 --> 00:41:07,709
You can go down the list.

443
00:41:07,709 --> 00:41:18,709
Mr. Haro, do you recognize that a drivechain enabled Bitcoin is the only real way at this point where we can actually share?

444
00:41:18,709 --> 00:41:26,709
There's no we. That's the thing. There's no we here. You might have people that are for drivechains and they are running nodes.

445
00:41:26,709 --> 00:41:32,709
They might be economical nodes and you might have some exchanges that are pushing it, but there is no collective here.

446
00:41:32,709 --> 00:41:36,709
Like I won't be doing it. There's gonna be many other people that won't be doing it. Or I don't even honestly.

447
00:41:36,709 --> 00:41:42,709
So I'm not one of the guys that you would be a talker. You would be a talker in that case.

448
00:41:42,709 --> 00:41:46,709
Whatever you want. I mean, if you want to call me a blocker, fine. Like, I'm not one of those guys.

449
00:41:46,709 --> 00:41:55,709
I mean, you support small block. Like, what do you think that we should? I mean, all things being equal, do you think that it would be better if Bitcoin had smaller blocks?

450
00:41:55,709 --> 00:42:02,709
Not through a drivechain, not through a sidechain that miners validate or a pool operator validates.

451
00:42:02,709 --> 00:42:05,709
But that's besides the point. I don't I don't personally. Hold on.

452
00:42:05,709 --> 00:42:07,709
Literally everything you said has been mistaken.

453
00:42:07,709 --> 00:42:10,709
Let's make sure he gets plenty of time to make his points.

454
00:42:10,709 --> 00:42:17,709
Yeah. Like I'm not against drivechains upgrade. I personally don't care if they get upgraded or not.

455
00:42:17,709 --> 00:42:21,709
I'm not a I'm not champion drivechains, but I.

456
00:42:21,709 --> 00:42:26,709
But you see, unlike SegWit, you don't have to care and it doesn't it doesn't affect you at all.

457
00:42:26,709 --> 00:42:29,709
It's not a.

458
00:42:29,709 --> 00:42:32,709
And I personally think it's going to be the same way.

459
00:42:32,709 --> 00:42:36,709
Like, you know, we have Rootstock. I didn't care that Rootstock got implemented.

460
00:42:36,709 --> 00:42:41,709
And not many other people care that Rootstock got implemented because there's no usage of Rootstock.

461
00:42:41,709 --> 00:42:44,709
Same thing with Liquid. I don't give a shit that Liquid got implemented.

462
00:42:44,709 --> 00:42:49,709
Nobody cares about Liquid. No one cares about sidechain. So, like, I think it's one big nothing burger.

463
00:42:49,709 --> 00:42:57,709
So if it does get implemented, if we know miners do decide to enforce it, I don't think there'll be any real usage on it.

464
00:42:57,709 --> 00:43:02,709
So I personally don't really care so much. Like there's other people that are flat out against it.

465
00:43:02,709 --> 00:43:05,709
Like, you know, you have people that know that they don't want to see it on Bitcoin.

466
00:43:05,709 --> 00:43:09,709
You know, I'm aware that there are evil soft forks. I'm aware that you can't stop them.

467
00:43:09,709 --> 00:43:16,709
If you could coordinate a bunch of pools to run your software and some exchanges to run your software, then so be it.

468
00:43:16,709 --> 00:43:20,709
I'm not one of those guys that's going to say, oh, it can't happen.

469
00:43:20,709 --> 00:43:24,709
What I think is going to happen is if it does get implemented, I don't think it's going to have any usage.

470
00:43:24,709 --> 00:43:28,709
I think it's not going to put a damper on shit coins. I think shit coins are still going to exist.

471
00:43:28,709 --> 00:43:32,709
I don't think people are going to really use it. So, like, it's going to be one big nothing.

472
00:43:32,709 --> 00:43:36,709
So you're indifferent on drivechain activation.

473
00:43:37,709 --> 00:43:44,709
Listen, if you start beautiful, if you start talking about evil soft forks and flag days, then, you know, that's a different conversation.

474
00:43:44,709 --> 00:43:52,709
But, I mean, if you have your signaling and you get activation and it activates them, so be it.

475
00:43:52,709 --> 00:43:56,709
I don't think there's going to be usage on it. So, like, I really don't care.

476
00:43:56,709 --> 00:44:01,709
And if there is usage on it and people do decide to send their Bitcoin on it and they lose their Bitcoin.

477
00:44:01,709 --> 00:44:04,709
Well, that's a lesson they're going to learn to not do that again.

478
00:44:04,709 --> 00:44:16,709
Oh, beautiful. Well, you know, I'd say that then you're definitely not in the in the category of the Bitcoin, Karen, trying to decide for others what they should or should not be able to do with their Bitcoin.

479
00:44:16,709 --> 00:44:22,709
And I count your indifference as as being on the supporter side of the demarcation.

480
00:44:22,709 --> 00:44:25,709
I mean, that's kind of odd to say I'm a supporter of it, but sure.

481
00:44:26,709 --> 00:44:27,709
OK, no problem.

482
00:44:27,709 --> 00:44:35,709
Well, the indifference, the indifference are supporters, because unlike SegWit, this is a super, super smooth, soft sway.

483
00:44:35,709 --> 00:44:37,709
It's a sway like soft.

484
00:44:37,709 --> 00:44:41,709
You have to understand, SegWit was needed. We needed to fix malleability to have a trustless lightning.

485
00:44:41,709 --> 00:44:43,709
Like, that had to happen. Like, there was no way around it.

486
00:44:43,709 --> 00:44:49,709
Maybe the block size increase that SegWit gave us was a mistake, but fixing malleability was needed.

487
00:44:50,709 --> 00:44:51,709
That's not what I'm talking about.

488
00:44:51,709 --> 00:45:01,709
I'm talking about the fact that although sold as a soft fork, as I believe, I believe you would agree when I say that it is not really a soft fork.

489
00:45:01,709 --> 00:45:06,709
It was actually a block size increase and a mandatory block size increase at that.

490
00:45:06,709 --> 00:45:08,709
What do you mean, SegWit?

491
00:45:08,709 --> 00:45:12,709
Yeah, I mean, yes, the blocks definitely got we got bamboozled.

492
00:45:13,709 --> 00:45:15,709
Drivechain. Yeah, we got bamboozled.

493
00:45:15,709 --> 00:45:22,709
And drivechain is very different because unlike that, which, you know, is maybe has a veneer, a soft veneer.

494
00:45:22,709 --> 00:45:26,709
But as soon as you scratch at it, you realize it's as hard as a rock underneath.

495
00:45:26,709 --> 00:45:38,709
Unlike that, drivechains is a silky smooth, super soft plush fork that those of those that are indifferent don't even have to care about what's delivered.

496
00:45:39,709 --> 00:45:47,709
There is a situation here where SegWit was agreed by 95 percent of the network for a year and a half.

497
00:45:47,709 --> 00:45:52,709
Like every node on the network for over a year was ready to activate BIP 141.

498
00:45:52,709 --> 00:45:54,709
That's the whole reason of UASF.

499
00:45:54,709 --> 00:45:59,709
That was the whole point of it was that the network was ready and you had one entity, Bitmain, that was blocking it.

500
00:45:59,709 --> 00:46:01,709
Well, yeah, of course.

501
00:46:02,709 --> 00:46:05,709
In this case, we have a very different situation right now.

502
00:46:05,709 --> 00:46:07,709
We have a very, very different situation.

503
00:46:07,709 --> 00:46:09,709
Nobody even fucking knows what drivechain is.

504
00:46:09,709 --> 00:46:12,709
Most of the network does not know what drivechain is or even heard of it.

505
00:46:12,709 --> 00:46:15,709
So it's completely different scenarios that we're talking here.

506
00:46:15,709 --> 00:46:17,709
Like one had wide consensus.

507
00:46:17,709 --> 00:46:18,709
The other one doesn't.

508
00:46:18,709 --> 00:46:19,709
No, I agree.

509
00:46:19,709 --> 00:46:20,709
I agree.

510
00:46:20,709 --> 00:46:21,709
They're different scenarios.

511
00:46:21,709 --> 00:46:40,709
But I just want to take this opportunity for the audience to point out something very important, which is that SegWit, although the softness of the soft fork that was SegWit, is not equivalent to the softness of the soft fork that is.

512
00:46:40,709 --> 00:46:42,709
Well, you had miners blocking it.

513
00:46:43,709 --> 00:46:53,709
What I'm trying to say is the indifferent parties, when we're talking about SegWit activation, they had something to lose.

514
00:46:53,709 --> 00:46:59,709
They lose a degree of decentralization by SegWit activation should they not upgrade their node.

515
00:46:59,709 --> 00:47:09,709
They are no longer neutral participants in the network if you're running a pre-SegWit node.

516
00:47:09,709 --> 00:47:12,709
But with drivechains, with BIP300, that's not the case.

517
00:47:12,709 --> 00:47:22,709
You can run a node that does not include BIP300, and unless you want to participate in those sidechains, it affects you not at all.

518
00:47:22,709 --> 00:47:34,709
Yeah, but you as a miner, if I was mining, then it would affect me because if there was a sidechain that became more profitable to mine, I would be obligated to look at it because you want to try to make as much money as possible.

519
00:47:34,709 --> 00:47:36,709
Now, a whole miner…

520
00:47:36,709 --> 00:47:37,709
You want to try, yeah.

521
00:47:38,709 --> 00:47:52,709
If Bitmain is making $100,000 a year selling their t-shirts, as we all know, then Foundry is going to need to look into the t-shirt business as well, are they not?

522
00:47:52,709 --> 00:47:58,709
Yeah, but why are they mining Ethereum if Ethereum is profitable to mine?

523
00:47:58,709 --> 00:48:03,709
Just because something is profitable to mine, something else, doesn't mean a Bitcoin miner is going to go and mine it.

524
00:48:03,709 --> 00:48:09,709
Why aren't SHA-256 miners mining low-cap shitcoins throughout the day?

525
00:48:09,709 --> 00:48:12,709
I mean, there's money to be made there, but they're not.

526
00:48:12,709 --> 00:48:13,709
They're not doing it.

527
00:48:15,709 --> 00:48:17,709
A t-shirt shop is selling t-shirts.

528
00:48:17,709 --> 00:48:21,709
They're not going to start selling coffee just because selling coffee is profitable.

529
00:48:21,709 --> 00:48:26,709
So, I mean, it's not fair to say it doesn't affect Bitcoin users.

530
00:48:26,709 --> 00:48:29,709
It most definitely affects Bitcoin users, especially if you're mining.

531
00:48:30,709 --> 00:48:33,709
You said many things.

532
00:48:33,709 --> 00:48:35,709
I grabbed my pen in time.

533
00:48:35,709 --> 00:48:36,709
All right.

534
00:48:36,709 --> 00:48:37,709
Let's hear what I got wrong.

535
00:48:37,709 --> 00:48:42,709
You got seven things, all of them wrong or at least totally irrelevant.

536
00:48:42,709 --> 00:48:43,709
Okay, let's hear it.

537
00:48:43,709 --> 00:48:46,709
I've been trying to do them in order of how obviously wrong they are.

538
00:48:46,709 --> 00:48:54,709
So, why do you say that 95% of the nodes were signaling for SegWit for a year and a half?

539
00:48:54,709 --> 00:48:55,709
Why do you say that?

540
00:48:55,709 --> 00:48:56,709
That's very curious to me.

541
00:48:57,709 --> 00:49:03,709
Because version 0.1.4 was pretty much the dominant version that enabled SegWit.

542
00:49:03,709 --> 00:49:07,709
BIP-141, I mean, you had basically the entire network that was ready to upgrade.

543
00:49:07,709 --> 00:49:08,709
That's why.

544
00:49:08,709 --> 00:49:10,709
Mr. Huddle, I remember it very clearly.

545
00:49:10,709 --> 00:49:17,709
It was October 2016, the hackathon after Scaling 3, where SegWit was shipped in the first place.

546
00:49:17,709 --> 00:49:18,709
And that's October 2016.

547
00:49:18,709 --> 00:49:22,709
Okay, what version was that, 0.1.6 or 1.7?

548
00:49:22,709 --> 00:49:25,709
August 2017, which is less than a year later.

549
00:49:25,709 --> 00:49:29,709
So, how is it possible that anyone could have been signaling for more than a year?

550
00:49:29,709 --> 00:49:30,709
For a year. It was a year.

551
00:49:30,709 --> 00:49:32,709
It was about a year.

552
00:49:32,709 --> 00:49:35,709
You said just a year and a half.

553
00:49:35,709 --> 00:49:37,709
Okay, my mistake.

554
00:49:37,709 --> 00:49:41,709
That was what I messed up with, the six-month difference, the five-month difference.

555
00:49:41,709 --> 00:49:44,709
That was the biggest mistake I made.

556
00:49:44,709 --> 00:49:48,709
If you were there, it's like October to August is obviously not more than a year.

557
00:49:48,709 --> 00:49:51,709
Regardless, the entire network was still ready to upgrade BIP-141.

558
00:49:51,709 --> 00:49:52,709
I mean, the whole network.

559
00:49:52,709 --> 00:49:55,709
It was just Bitmain that was kind of blocking it.

560
00:49:55,709 --> 00:49:57,709
What's wrong about that?

561
00:49:57,709 --> 00:50:01,709
What I was pointing out was wrong is that you obviously…

562
00:50:01,709 --> 00:50:02,709
Messed up the date?

563
00:50:02,709 --> 00:50:03,709
Yes.

564
00:50:03,709 --> 00:50:05,709
Oh, all right. I apologize.

565
00:50:05,709 --> 00:50:08,709
If that's what I got wrong, then no.

566
00:50:08,709 --> 00:50:10,709
I thought it was a lot worse than that.

567
00:50:10,709 --> 00:50:20,709
Okay, one thing is you said Flag Day is bad, but the SegWit was itself activated by miner activated software kind of at Flag Day UASF run point.

568
00:50:20,709 --> 00:50:21,709
No, no.

569
00:50:21,709 --> 00:50:22,709
BIP-148, no.

570
00:50:22,709 --> 00:50:27,709
It was supposed to activate on Flag Day with August 1st with BIP-148.

571
00:50:27,709 --> 00:50:33,709
But James Hillard created BIP-91, and then it got activated like weeks before August 1st.

572
00:50:33,709 --> 00:50:35,709
There was no Flag Day.

573
00:50:35,709 --> 00:50:36,709
Go ahead, next.

574
00:50:36,709 --> 00:50:39,709
My question is that do you support the UASF or not?

575
00:50:39,709 --> 00:50:42,709
Because the UASF was Flag Day activation.

576
00:50:42,709 --> 00:50:43,709
Yeah, yeah.

577
00:50:43,709 --> 00:50:46,709
At that time, when Bitcoin was being hijacked by Bitmain, yeah, of course I supported it.

578
00:50:46,709 --> 00:50:47,709
I was ready to split off.

579
00:50:47,709 --> 00:50:50,709
I was ready to have BIP-148 tokens at that point.

580
00:50:50,709 --> 00:50:56,709
Can't there just be a different version of the story where in Drivechain story, you're the Bitmain?

581
00:50:56,709 --> 00:50:57,709
Okay.

582
00:50:57,709 --> 00:50:59,709
I'm not blocking it, though.

583
00:50:59,709 --> 00:51:01,709
Bitmain was actively blocking it.

584
00:51:01,709 --> 00:51:08,709
Yeah, but let's say you're the only person who disagrees with Drivechain, then you would be the Bitmain of this story.

585
00:51:08,709 --> 00:51:16,709
No, Bitmain was literally blocking SegWit with hash power, and they were selling ASICs to people that were only mining certain chains.

586
00:51:16,709 --> 00:51:18,709
They were actively blocking it because you had –

587
00:51:18,709 --> 00:51:20,709
Yeah, but don't you understand what I'm getting at?

588
00:51:20,709 --> 00:51:23,709
You either think Flag Day is a good thing or not.

589
00:51:23,709 --> 00:51:25,709
No, Flag Day is a good thing.

590
00:51:25,709 --> 00:51:26,709
So there you go.

591
00:51:26,709 --> 00:51:29,709
I'm not trying to block Drivechains.

592
00:51:29,709 --> 00:51:32,709
If you heard me from the beginning, I said I don't care for it.

593
00:51:32,709 --> 00:51:35,709
I don't think there's – if it does get implemented, there's going to be no usage on it.

594
00:51:35,709 --> 00:51:36,709
What?

595
00:51:36,709 --> 00:51:37,709
Okay, yeah, that's good.

596
00:51:37,709 --> 00:51:39,709
Then we'll move on to the next thing.

597
00:51:39,709 --> 00:51:40,709
All right.

598
00:51:40,709 --> 00:51:41,709
Oh, yes.

599
00:51:41,709 --> 00:51:43,709
So you claim that I believe –

600
00:51:43,709 --> 00:51:44,709
Hold on, hold on, hold on.

601
00:51:44,709 --> 00:51:45,709
Let's just make it clear.

602
00:51:45,709 --> 00:51:47,709
SegWit didn't get activated with Flag Day.

603
00:51:47,709 --> 00:51:48,709
Let's just make that clear.

604
00:51:48,709 --> 00:51:50,709
We agree with that, but the UASF –

605
00:51:50,709 --> 00:51:51,709
Okay.

606
00:51:51,709 --> 00:51:52,709
But the Flag Day was like –

607
00:51:52,709 --> 00:51:58,709
Yeah, UASF was supposed to – if miners didn't activate SegWit by August 1st, then you would have Flag Day.

608
00:51:58,709 --> 00:51:59,709
But we never reached that.

609
00:51:59,709 --> 00:52:02,709
BIP-91 happened weeks before August 1st.

610
00:52:02,709 --> 00:52:08,709
Also, this is a thing that not a lot of people know because a lot of people out there just in Twitter-verse, they just say UASF –

611
00:52:08,709 --> 00:52:10,709
Yeah, but that's not my problem.

612
00:52:10,709 --> 00:52:12,709
I don't care what people know or don't know.

613
00:52:12,709 --> 00:52:14,709
I completely agree with you about that.

614
00:52:14,709 --> 00:52:15,709
I'm just pointing it out for the audience.

615
00:52:15,709 --> 00:52:17,709
They may take something away from this.

616
00:52:17,709 --> 00:52:18,709
Yes, yes.

617
00:52:18,709 --> 00:52:21,709
BIP-148, UASF did not activate SegWit.

618
00:52:21,709 --> 00:52:23,709
It was BIP-91 that activated SegWit.

619
00:52:23,709 --> 00:52:24,709
Okay, next.

620
00:52:24,709 --> 00:52:25,709
Great.

621
00:52:25,709 --> 00:52:31,709
So now you said that I believe that – I was a large blocker in 2016, and I believe that Gihan and whatever would get away with large blocks.

622
00:52:31,709 --> 00:52:33,709
That's what you really think?

623
00:52:33,709 --> 00:52:35,709
Yeah, yeah, I really do.

624
00:52:35,709 --> 00:52:38,709
I mean you were working with Garzik for a while there.

625
00:52:39,709 --> 00:52:42,709
Weren't you getting money from Bitmain at some point?

626
00:52:42,709 --> 00:52:44,709
No, I never got any money from Bitmain.

627
00:52:44,709 --> 00:52:45,709
It was Garzik?

628
00:52:45,709 --> 00:52:47,709
I turned it down.

629
00:52:47,709 --> 00:52:48,709
Oh, okay.

630
00:52:48,709 --> 00:52:49,709
My mistake.

631
00:52:49,709 --> 00:52:51,709
Sorry for putting it down there.

632
00:52:51,709 --> 00:52:52,709
I thought –

633
00:52:52,709 --> 00:52:57,709
Gihan did offer me – I think it was consensus 2016 in May.

634
00:52:57,709 --> 00:53:03,709
I had a little tiny little conversation with him in a little room, and he was talking along the lines of RSK.

635
00:53:03,709 --> 00:53:07,709
I think he was talking about merge mining and money and something like that.

636
00:53:08,709 --> 00:53:09,709
I got a question for you.

637
00:53:09,709 --> 00:53:10,709
I got a question for you.

638
00:53:10,709 --> 00:53:14,709
What makes you think that Drivechain would be different from RSK?

639
00:53:14,709 --> 00:53:18,709
I can get into that if you like, but we just added more points to the list.

640
00:53:18,709 --> 00:53:24,709
I think RSK is one specific example of a sidechain.

641
00:53:24,709 --> 00:53:27,709
No, I know, but that's the closest one to Drivechain.

642
00:53:27,709 --> 00:53:28,709
That's why I'm asking you.

643
00:53:28,709 --> 00:53:30,709
Drivechain is like a technique.

644
00:53:30,709 --> 00:53:36,709
So Drivechain is like the Lightning Network, and RSK could be like LND or something or whatever, Eclair or something.

645
00:53:36,709 --> 00:53:38,709
It would be like one wallet.

646
00:53:38,709 --> 00:53:46,709
So RSK is just copying ETH, but I'm saying this is a general technique that anyone can reuse to release any software.

647
00:53:46,709 --> 00:53:48,709
It can drop add any sidechain.

648
00:53:48,709 --> 00:53:53,709
So that's – and that way it's a little bit more like Spegwit.

649
00:53:53,709 --> 00:53:55,709
It's like if you said –

650
00:53:55,709 --> 00:53:59,709
Can I say something about Paul's position in the block size war?

651
00:53:59,709 --> 00:54:05,709
Because I'm not sure if he would get to this himself, and also maybe, I don't know, some third-party verification.

652
00:54:05,709 --> 00:54:17,709
The reality was is that in the block size war, Paul was an adamant and aggressive small blocker, but trying to avoid the entire split with –

653
00:54:17,709 --> 00:54:26,709
I mean, one of the kind of key momentum points of Drivechain, although maybe the timing was off and it was too late.

654
00:54:27,709 --> 00:54:39,709
But many people were on kind of Paul's side, including – I believe he's talked about this publicly, but Adam Back was speaking to Roger Ver, Jihan Wu, and all these –

655
00:54:39,709 --> 00:54:49,709
the figureheads of the big block movement, positioning Drivechain as kind of the solution to maintain the coalition.

656
00:54:50,709 --> 00:55:05,709
So not only is that not the case, it's like kind of 180 degrees not the case, where Paul was actively working with the most prominent small blockers to try to avoid the entire drama to begin with.

657
00:55:06,709 --> 00:55:14,709
And that's – I mean, there's many people who are actually involved know this, but somehow one person tweets,

658
00:55:14,709 --> 00:55:22,709
Paul gets money from Jihan Wu, which is like a complete fabrication. There's absolutely no evidence to that, and that becomes the narrative.

659
00:55:24,709 --> 00:55:32,709
I mean, I thought – yeah, you're 100% right. I thought that Jihan Wu was paying him to help with the block.

660
00:55:32,709 --> 00:55:37,709
But the reality was at that time, Paul had the solution to prevent the block size war.

661
00:55:38,709 --> 00:55:44,709
I mean, Drivechains came from Adam. This was an idea, Adam's idea for a long time. We were all talking about it.

662
00:55:44,709 --> 00:56:01,709
But once we saw the centralization of mining, just to allow – not to allow, but to even give people an option to think that sending money to a chain that miners just validate at a time when miners were literally trying to hijack the network.

663
00:56:01,709 --> 00:56:05,709
It's not miners. I shouldn't say miners. I should say Bitmain. It's not the miners that were doing it.

664
00:56:06,709 --> 00:56:13,709
I thought it was crazy. I thought that was just insane to allow – give miners more power, giving up your coins.

665
00:56:13,709 --> 00:56:20,709
Now, again, I'm not the one that will send coins to an extension block or a sidechain. I wouldn't be doing that.

666
00:56:20,709 --> 00:56:27,709
But then again, I won't be sending coins to Coinbase or Kraken either, so I'm not that everyday user that will –

667
00:56:27,709 --> 00:56:36,709
So do you think the network is stronger, more secure, more valuable because of the civil war or less so?

668
00:56:36,709 --> 00:56:47,709
Because usually, at least in the meat space, when you have a civil war, all sides are the losers, and if any sort of victory is –

669
00:56:47,709 --> 00:56:59,709
I don't – dude, man, it wasn't a war. It was – you had a certain individual or a few individuals that tried to block a certain upgrade because it affected their pockets.

670
00:56:59,709 --> 00:57:09,709
I wouldn't really consider that a war. And eventually, they gave in. So no one died. No one got hurt. Bitcoin at that time was just going up during all that drama.

671
00:57:09,709 --> 00:57:13,709
Everyone was – it wasn't a war. It was –

672
00:57:13,709 --> 00:57:18,709
Okay, Bitcoin was going up, but Bitcoin should always be going up, and Bitcoin should be worth a million dollars right now.

673
00:57:18,709 --> 00:57:20,709
Sure, but people –

674
00:57:20,709 --> 00:57:24,709
And you want to know one of the reasons why it isn't worth a million dollars right now?

675
00:57:24,709 --> 00:57:26,709
Because it's not a coalition.

676
00:57:26,709 --> 00:57:34,709
No, it's because instead of building coalition, instead of snowballing, it sheds coalition with events like that.

677
00:57:35,709 --> 00:57:42,709
Phenomenon like the block size war sheds massive – it sheds coalition. It sheds capital. It sheds security.

678
00:57:42,709 --> 00:57:45,709
No, really, man. I mean it happened for a little bit.

679
00:57:45,709 --> 00:57:46,709
Yeah, really. Really.

680
00:57:46,709 --> 00:57:47,709
It happened for a while.

681
00:57:47,709 --> 00:57:51,709
Yeah, really. $30,000 Bitcoin is pathetic. It's pathetic.

682
00:57:51,709 --> 00:58:01,709
Bitcoin should be worth well over a million dollars right now, and it would be worth significantly more had the block size war never happened and you still had crazy optimistic Roger Ver evangelizing.

683
00:58:02,709 --> 00:58:05,709
Life sucks. Life's not fair, and that's the way the world works.

684
00:58:05,709 --> 00:58:15,709
No, it's not the way the world works. That's why you grab life and the world by the horns and you steer it. You don't just sit there as a passive observer.

685
00:58:15,709 --> 00:58:20,709
That's why we will get drivechains merged, and that's why Bitcoin will be worth $15 million.

686
00:58:20,709 --> 00:58:30,709
And I'm tired. I'm not taking no fucking vow of poverty. We're going all-time high. We're going far beyond whatever you think.

687
00:58:30,709 --> 00:58:35,709
Whatever you think Bitcoin is going, we're going beyond that. We're going to be so fucking rich it's going to be absurd.

688
00:58:35,709 --> 00:58:40,709
That's what I'm doing. I'm not going to sit there and say life's unfair. Life's not unfair.

689
00:58:40,709 --> 00:58:43,709
The only thing that's unfair is Bitcoin is $30,000.

690
00:58:44,709 --> 00:58:48,709
Look, at Bitcoin $30,000, I'm fine, but it's not enough.

691
00:58:48,709 --> 00:58:57,709
Bitcoin, the only important piece of information when it comes to Bitcoin is the price, and $30,000 is nothing. It's a joke. It's literally a joke.

692
00:58:57,709 --> 00:59:02,709
We're going to millions of dollars. Everybody in the whole world is going to be foaming at the mouth.

693
00:59:02,709 --> 00:59:10,709
Everyone's going to be your best friend. The inevitable incredible future where we're headed, it's unbelievable.

694
00:59:11,709 --> 00:59:19,709
And the rocket ship that takes us there has drivechains penciled right on the side, stenciled on the side.

695
00:59:19,709 --> 00:59:27,709
Guys, could we, if possible, just kind of get back to either some of the key points about how a drivechain works or doesn't work?

696
00:59:27,709 --> 00:59:32,709
Because I think the block size wars from like six, seven years ago are fun, but not super productive.

697
00:59:32,709 --> 00:59:33,709
That's a great point.

698
00:59:33,709 --> 00:59:36,709
Paul seems like a nice guy. I'd love to ask some questions.

699
00:59:36,709 --> 00:59:42,709
I think at the moment we should let Mr. Hoddle share his thoughts with Paul and others about.

700
00:59:43,537 --> 00:59:57,537
The substantive concerns and historical matters. I think that's a valuable direction. So why don't we continue with Mr. Hoddle and Paul and Paul had a list of comments in response to Mr. Hoddle's remarks.

701
00:59:57,537 --> 01:00:01,537
Let's go forward from there.

702
01:00:02,537 --> 01:00:17,537
Grab the pen, because more and more just keep coming, of course. It's hard to even know where to begin, but I mean, maybe like you understand that it doesn't, you said that the idea of drivechain gives more power to the miners, but surely you understand.

703
01:00:17,537 --> 01:00:27,537
Oh, actually, we lost him. Did we lose him? We may need to wait for him to come back. Should I say it and then repeat it? Probably not.

704
01:00:28,537 --> 01:00:48,537
Paul, while we wait on him, could you talk about how does the fee markets actually work on a drivechain? That's something that's not super clear to me and maybe would be helpful for other people, because if miners are the recipients of fees paid, what actually dictates doing a transaction costs on a drivechain? Can you help illuminate that?

705
01:00:49,537 --> 01:01:02,537
Well, each market has – so every sidechain has its own block space, and that works basically the same way as mainchain block space. And so each miner would set like maybe a min fee rate.

706
01:01:02,537 --> 01:01:31,537
So I think one thing that I've learned, which has shocked me honestly, is the number of people who confuse price and revenue, where it's like if you have a watermelon stand and the watermelons are $10 and you sell 50 watermelons and you have $500. But it's like $500 is different than $10 per watermelon. One is gallons, miles per hour, and one is hours or miles. Take your pick.

707
01:01:32,537 --> 01:01:42,537
But this is apparently like a completely new concept to many people on Bitcoin Twitter. They just think fees – they use the word fees for both things, and this is not a good thing.

708
01:01:42,537 --> 01:01:58,537
So I say fee rate is the price, like $0.50 per transaction fee rate, and then fees is the total amount of money in the block. But you can see that when the blocks are not always the same size, some are smaller than others, these numbers are completely different.

709
01:01:58,537 --> 01:02:12,537
It's like if you sell your watermelons for $50 and you sell 10, then you have $500. And if you sell the watermelon for $3 and you sell 10 million watermelons, then you have $30 million worth of revenue. So it's completely different.

710
01:02:12,537 --> 01:02:32,537
It's important to keep these numbers straight. It's like miles per hour versus miles versus hours. So the way the fee market works is basically the same as the way it works on L1, but there's a new blockchain with new block space, and it can do whatever.

711
01:02:32,537 --> 01:02:46,537
It can do its own new features, and it has its own min fee rate and maximum block size. Those are basically the same thing if you set the – because there is no supply curve in Bitcoin.

712
01:02:46,537 --> 01:02:59,537
I don't know if this is going to make any sense to anyone, but the miners can just pick a block of whatever size they like. So if they pick a small block, the fee rates will be up and some transactions will be lost.

713
01:03:00,537 --> 01:03:12,537
If they make the block much smaller, the fee rate can collapse, and the fee rate will be small. The fees, as with the watermelon example, the fees could go up as the fee rate goes down. Anything is really possible.

714
01:03:12,537 --> 01:03:26,537
So what the miners will probably do is try to maximize the area of that rectangle, same as everyone else who sells something. They'll try to pick the fee rate that maximizes their revenue, which is probably pretty low.

715
01:03:27,537 --> 01:03:43,537
And then the sidechain designer will need to pick their own block size limit for the exact same reason that it's picked in Bitcoin Core, which is that the unlimited growth of the chain is annoying to the chain's users who have to validate and process every message that is expensive.

716
01:03:43,537 --> 01:03:51,537
And it makes the chain dark if there's too much work required to validate the chain, then you can't see into the chain anymore.

717
01:03:51,537 --> 01:04:04,537
So I don't know if any of this is helping actually answer your question, but I would say it's kind of like altcoins, where there's Bitcoin fees and then there's Litecoin fees.

718
01:04:05,537 --> 01:04:13,537
It would be kind of like that, where there would be much cheaper fees, probably a smaller rectangle, but not necessarily.

719
01:04:13,537 --> 01:04:23,537
I mean, it's possible that someone will release a huge blockchain where the fee rate is $0.02 per transaction, but the blocks are very big and it's possible they'll be viable.

720
01:04:24,537 --> 01:04:33,537
Whether or not it's viable is an act of creativity and entrepreneurship on the side of whoever releases that chain.

721
01:04:33,537 --> 01:04:38,537
It may be viable for a short time. Solana is viable for a short time, but then doomed.

722
01:04:39,537 --> 01:04:49,537
Are drivechains compatible with each other to where, whatever, if you've got some coins on a privacy drivechain, but you want to move it over to, I don't know, whatever use case of a different one?

723
01:04:49,537 --> 01:04:56,537
Or is it required to sort of do that kind of swap with somebody on L1 who has some coins?

724
01:04:56,537 --> 01:05:01,537
Maybe you pay a little convenience fee for that and then you have to kind of re-bridge over to a different chain.

725
01:05:04,537 --> 01:05:05,537
Does that make sense?

726
01:05:06,537 --> 01:05:13,537
Actually, I was distracted because I was looking to see if Mr. Hoddle is coming back, and I was trying to figure out what happened to him, but I don't know where he is.

727
01:05:13,537 --> 01:05:15,537
I guess he's maybe not coming back.

728
01:05:15,537 --> 01:05:22,537
Maybe he lost reception. I hope he comes back, and if he does, we'll make sure he gets plenty of time to make his point.

729
01:05:22,537 --> 01:05:26,537
Also, the Spaces app, it has been kind of buggy for me.

730
01:05:26,537 --> 01:05:34,537
Sometimes it's clearly filling up some kind of cache with RAM, and then it will sometimes crash if we talk for a while and have to rejoin.

731
01:05:34,537 --> 01:05:36,537
I don't know. Maybe Elon can fix that.

732
01:05:36,537 --> 01:05:39,537
Sorry about that, but could you repeat the question? I honestly didn't even take it.

733
01:05:39,537 --> 01:05:44,537
The question was just about drivechains sort of being compatible with each other.

734
01:05:44,537 --> 01:05:52,537
If I'm a user and I have coins on whatever privacy chain, and I want to move them over to, let's say, a different one to do something else,

735
01:05:52,537 --> 01:06:01,537
do I have to either kind of wait the time length to bridge them back to L1, or do that kind of swap with somebody and pay a convenience fee to do so,

736
01:06:01,537 --> 01:06:06,537
and then bridge over to that other chain, or is there some world where they could be compatible with each other?

737
01:06:14,537 --> 01:06:19,537
It looks like Paul had to leave and rejoin just for a second.

738
01:06:19,537 --> 01:06:29,537
The app, and I think – so hopefully if you have a buggy speaking, then just wait for it to crash and then rejoin.

739
01:06:29,537 --> 01:06:32,537
I've noticed that the – and this has also happened – this happened to Adam Beck, too.

740
01:06:32,537 --> 01:06:38,537
I've noticed that the three little lines that move when you speak, at some point those will freeze,

741
01:06:38,537 --> 01:06:43,537
and then you have about eight minutes until the app crashes for me.

742
01:06:43,537 --> 01:06:45,537
But I guess with Adam it just didn't crash.

743
01:06:45,537 --> 01:06:48,537
He could speak uninterrupted for three hours.

744
01:06:48,537 --> 01:06:49,537
Anyway, sorry about that.

745
01:06:49,537 --> 01:06:50,537
That was weird.

746
01:06:50,537 --> 01:06:52,537
But I think the question was are they interoperable.

747
01:06:52,537 --> 01:06:55,537
The answer is both yes and no in a way.

748
01:06:55,537 --> 01:07:06,537
It's like if you have a computer, you can run an application that asks for both of those things in the same way that you could run an application like Steam,

749
01:07:06,537 --> 01:07:14,537
the Steam launcher, and it could launch like two games or something, and it knows which games you are playing and what games your friends are playing.

750
01:07:14,537 --> 01:07:17,537
So in that sense, everything is interoperable with everything.

751
01:07:17,537 --> 01:07:24,537
You could also use a similar thing where you say I have an Ethereum altcoin node and a Bitcoin node and whatever.

752
01:07:24,537 --> 01:07:27,537
You have some piece of software that uses both of those.

753
01:07:28,537 --> 01:07:39,537
There's another sense in which the answer is no, which is to say you can send coins from one sidechain to another, but in order to do this yourself,

754
01:07:39,537 --> 01:07:46,537
you would have to walk them back using the three, six-month thing to L1 and then deposit them, which is instant.

755
01:07:46,537 --> 01:07:48,537
Deposits are always instant.

756
01:07:48,537 --> 01:08:01,537
You can get around that since it's kind of like in the sidechain world, it's kind of like every single human being is an ATM because some people are bound to have a little coin.

757
01:08:01,537 --> 01:08:11,537
Some people out there, not everyone, but some people out there are bound to have one of the coins you want or both, and for a price, they will just swap the coins.

758
01:08:11,537 --> 01:08:17,537
So it would be like when you go to an ATM that's not in your network or in a different country and you have to pay $5 or $6.

759
01:08:17,537 --> 01:08:27,537
You can swap the coins instantly, and this would be a very competitive service since basically anyone who owns either coin…

760
01:08:27,537 --> 01:08:47,537
There could be demand in another chain to where enough people want to do this, and then there becomes a market where some people have coins on both sides, and they kind of act as liquidity to facilitate that for people and take a fee, right?

761
01:08:48,537 --> 01:08:50,537
Yeah, exactly.

762
01:08:50,537 --> 01:09:04,537
So my guess is that in practice, they will be interoperable, but they aren't like by themselves they are not, but my guess is that in the ecosystem, they will be.

763
01:09:04,537 --> 01:09:10,537
It's kind of like how you can go on YouTube and just rent a movie, pay $3.

764
01:09:10,537 --> 01:09:13,537
It would be like that.

765
01:09:13,537 --> 01:09:16,537
That would be the level of practical interoperability.

766
01:09:16,537 --> 01:09:26,537
If all this works, this all may not work, of course, but I've always been an advocate for this idea because it's like it costs very little to try and the upside is enormous.

767
01:09:26,537 --> 01:09:44,537
And it does seem like the things that we do instead, like our activation drama and having other hard-fork communities of Bitcoin and having altcoins, letting the altcoins be undisturbed to just do whatever they want, it really just seems like this is a huge and strict improvement over there with no risks.

768
01:09:44,537 --> 01:09:47,537
And I think that you see a lot of demand for the new features.

769
01:09:47,537 --> 01:09:49,537
If you look, you find it.

770
01:09:49,537 --> 01:09:55,537
If you just look at Giacomo's slide and it says everything inside Bitcoin is a scam and then you stop looking, you won't find it.

771
01:09:55,537 --> 01:09:58,537
But like many darknet markets are Monero only.

772
01:09:58,537 --> 01:09:59,537
There's lots of things.

773
01:09:59,537 --> 01:10:04,537
People have tried to get the name system to work for a long time, Namecoin, Ethereum name, the Stacks name.

774
01:10:04,537 --> 01:10:11,537
There's always like not what we deserve, which is something that is not corrupted by an altcoin.

775
01:10:11,537 --> 01:10:17,537
But we could have that with the sidechain and the existing DNS system just isn't very good.

776
01:10:17,537 --> 01:10:18,537
It could easily be replaced.

777
01:10:18,537 --> 01:10:28,537
It is the existing Internet is like secured by like some kind of like five or seven multi-state or something, which we all of mankind deserves better than that.

778
01:10:28,537 --> 01:10:29,537
You shouldn't.

779
01:10:29,537 --> 01:10:30,537
It shouldn't be possible to seize domain.

780
01:10:30,537 --> 01:10:32,537
You should own the domain.

781
01:10:33,537 --> 01:10:40,537
People should be able to go to whatever Edward Snowden dot bit and they should always be able to message him.

782
01:10:40,537 --> 01:10:42,537
Or send him money or whatever.

783
01:10:42,537 --> 01:10:43,537
Or Zelensky dot bit or whatever.

784
01:10:43,537 --> 01:10:44,537
Putin dot bit.

785
01:10:44,537 --> 01:10:46,537
Whatever you prefer.

786
01:10:46,537 --> 01:10:50,537
So there's a lot of demand for this.

787
01:10:50,537 --> 01:10:52,537
We have a new speaker.

788
01:10:52,537 --> 01:10:53,537
Great.

789
01:10:53,537 --> 01:10:54,537
Hi, Yuri.

790
01:10:54,537 --> 01:10:55,537
Welcome to the stage.

791
01:10:55,537 --> 01:10:56,537
What's your comment or question?

792
01:10:56,537 --> 01:10:57,537
Hello, Lair.

793
01:10:57,537 --> 01:10:59,537
Hello, everyone.

794
01:10:59,537 --> 01:11:04,537
Sorry for the interruption, but I'd like to ask.

795
01:11:04,537 --> 01:11:06,537
What is the problem?

796
01:11:06,537 --> 01:11:15,537
What is the technical objection against you simply claim bearing, you know, I mean.

797
01:11:16,537 --> 01:11:18,537
For instance of return.

798
01:11:18,537 --> 01:11:27,537
And then since, of course, blockchain is ordered, you know, there's a system, a natural system for ownership.

799
01:11:27,537 --> 01:11:29,537
But the first to claim is the owner.

800
01:11:29,537 --> 01:11:40,537
And then it can transfer through an, you know, a regular transaction just, you know, with an annotation also in your return.

801
01:11:40,537 --> 01:11:46,537
So why wouldn't that be a good system for naming within Bitcoin?

802
01:11:46,537 --> 01:11:48,537
Yes.

803
01:11:48,537 --> 01:11:50,537
That's a very good idea.

804
01:11:50,537 --> 01:11:54,537
But it's not, it wouldn't be like quite as good as it could be.

805
01:11:54,537 --> 01:11:57,537
So in a way, counterparty is kind of like that.

806
01:11:57,537 --> 01:12:00,537
Because counterparty lets people name assets and then send them to each other.

807
01:12:00,537 --> 01:12:08,537
And if you just had a new counterparty asset that had a, each of the things only had one quantity.

808
01:12:08,537 --> 01:12:10,537
You know, each new thing.

809
01:12:10,537 --> 01:12:13,537
Each Spells of Genesis or each RarePAPA only has one quantity.

810
01:12:13,537 --> 01:12:15,537
Then you say that's the person who owns the name.

811
01:12:15,537 --> 01:12:17,537
And that would work.

812
01:12:17,537 --> 01:12:22,537
But it would not be, you can see that it would have many steps that would not be totally optimized.

813
01:12:22,537 --> 01:12:26,537
So like, for example, you have to do some kind of hash reveal.

814
01:12:26,537 --> 01:12:32,537
Otherwise, the miner would fight you on a valuable name when you register it at the beginning.

815
01:12:33,537 --> 01:12:38,537
And there is also the case that people may release a competing version.

816
01:12:38,537 --> 01:12:41,537
Of course, they could do that with a competing Namecoin sidechain also.

817
01:12:41,537 --> 01:12:50,537
But the, I think like one of the questions is how to import the ICANN names.

818
01:12:50,537 --> 01:12:56,537
Which I think is the key disadvantage of all the previous attempts at replacing DNS.

819
01:12:56,537 --> 01:13:00,537
So I wrote a post about this that is called BitNames.

820
01:13:00,537 --> 01:13:04,537
And it's called a sidechain for name or Namecoin sidechain or something like that.

821
01:13:04,537 --> 01:13:07,537
You can find it on my blog, truthcoin.info.

822
01:13:07,537 --> 01:13:12,537
And there I write exactly what I think should happen and why.

823
01:13:12,537 --> 01:13:15,537
And this includes a bunch of other stuff.

824
01:13:15,537 --> 01:13:19,537
But I think your idea would, it could work.

825
01:13:19,537 --> 01:13:22,537
And it would be, I would refer to it as like a counterparty based.

826
01:13:22,537 --> 01:13:26,537
Like it's kind of like counterparty is putting stuff in the transactions.

827
01:13:26,537 --> 01:13:33,537
We do run into the idea that L1 should have a small block size limit.

828
01:13:33,537 --> 01:13:40,537
And it should not, it should not, all the, every application probably should not be on L1.

829
01:13:40,537 --> 01:13:44,537
L1 should just be moving the coins among the different like layer twos.

830
01:13:44,537 --> 01:13:51,537
And so actually we run into the same sort of block size limit that not everyone can have a UTXO.

831
01:13:51,537 --> 01:13:57,537
Because you just multiply and divide how many, you know, whatever, 8 billion people.

832
01:13:57,537 --> 01:14:00,537
Multiply and divide and not everyone can have a UTXO.

833
01:14:00,537 --> 01:14:03,537
But you could have the sidechain UTXO.

834
01:14:03,537 --> 01:14:06,537
And we would want people to have many different names.

835
01:14:06,537 --> 01:14:11,537
You know, you should have a name for your personal account.

836
01:14:11,537 --> 01:14:13,537
You should have like a career account.

837
01:14:13,537 --> 01:14:15,537
And then if you start a business, the business needs a name.

838
01:14:15,537 --> 01:14:16,537
You need a Google name.

839
01:14:16,537 --> 01:14:21,537
You need a whatever, Papa John's Pizza name.

840
01:14:21,537 --> 01:14:28,537
So I actually think that it's partly the block size limit would interfere with that application being good.

841
01:14:28,537 --> 01:14:33,537
And so that is an issue that we want the layer one block size to be small.

842
01:14:33,537 --> 01:14:37,537
And yet we also want usage to be.

843
01:14:37,537 --> 01:14:40,537
But that is a good idea that technically would work.

844
01:14:41,537 --> 01:14:51,537
And as I say, I would kind of relabel it as like using counterparty as the name scheme.

845
01:14:51,537 --> 01:14:53,537
I mean you want the names to do a lot of things.

846
01:14:53,537 --> 01:14:57,537
Like you want the names to like be associated with the key pair owner.

847
01:14:57,537 --> 01:14:58,537
That helps.

848
01:14:58,537 --> 01:15:01,537
And you want like there to be one canonical list of names.

849
01:15:01,537 --> 01:15:03,537
You want people to be able to like buy and sell the names.

850
01:15:03,537 --> 01:15:08,537
You want, maybe you want the names to be triggered by like different events.

851
01:15:08,537 --> 01:15:12,537
Like you have like your friends' social key recovery and other things like that.

852
01:15:12,537 --> 01:15:22,537
So I think my view, my tentative view, is that it would be better to put the names in their own piece of software that is optimized for this purpose.

853
01:15:22,537 --> 01:15:29,537
And kind of let that community just go off and forge its own path, so to speak.

854
01:15:32,537 --> 01:15:34,537
Since I think they will gain a bunch of knowledge along the way.

855
01:15:34,537 --> 01:15:41,537
And they should actually – it's because I don't want layer one to be bothered by all this stuff that I think that they should go on their own piece of software.

856
01:15:41,537 --> 01:15:43,537
But I think your idea would work.

857
01:15:43,537 --> 01:15:52,537
But I think it's like the – one of the things that that idea does not have is the way of taking on the ICANN, the existing ICANN DNS database.

858
01:15:52,537 --> 01:15:57,537
Which the idea that I wrote about in my BitNames post does have.

859
01:15:57,537 --> 01:16:00,537
And I think that idea is the key.

860
01:16:01,537 --> 01:16:04,537
You have to somehow respect the property rights of Google.com.

861
01:16:04,537 --> 01:16:09,537
But also it has to be a blockchain where everything is only self-referential.

862
01:16:09,537 --> 01:16:13,537
And there are – so I have thoughts on the best way of doing that.

863
01:16:13,537 --> 01:16:17,537
But that's certainly like an open question as to what the best way is.

864
01:16:17,537 --> 01:16:23,537
I would guess, though, that if there were sidechains, people would just – there wouldn't be like such a long debate.

865
01:16:23,537 --> 01:16:25,537
Like someone would have just done it by now.

866
01:16:26,537 --> 01:16:37,537
Well, as far as respecting already existing names in legacy systems, well, I actually think this is a way of monetization.

867
01:16:37,537 --> 01:16:48,537
Because then if you go appropriate Google.com, of course, should the system prosper and catch on, you of course would be able to resell that name to Google.

868
01:16:48,537 --> 01:16:52,537
Or to whom else is willing to pay a good price for it anyhow.

869
01:16:53,537 --> 01:16:54,537
Yeah, I don't actually agree with that.

870
01:16:54,537 --> 01:17:04,537
I think that that is – what people will do if they see that is they'll say, I reject this naming system because it creates too much conflict.

871
01:17:04,537 --> 01:17:11,537
They'd say – it's a case of network effects where people want to be on the same naming system as everyone else.

872
01:17:11,537 --> 01:17:13,537
That's their primary goal.

873
01:17:13,537 --> 01:17:15,537
And they would also like it to be better.

874
01:17:16,537 --> 01:17:20,537
But their primary goal is to be on the same name system as everyone else.

875
01:17:20,537 --> 01:17:24,537
And they think if they screw over Google, then they could come for my name next.

876
01:17:24,537 --> 01:17:27,537
And it's kind of a live by the fork, die by the fork situation.

877
01:17:27,537 --> 01:17:29,537
But that is, of course, a difference of opinion.

878
01:17:29,537 --> 01:17:31,537
You may be perfectly right about that.

879
01:17:31,537 --> 01:17:40,537
And I think it would be better to say when you upgrade to this thing, Google.com is already waiting for you in the software.

880
01:17:40,537 --> 01:17:46,537
Which you could sort of try to do with – you could take like a snapshot and do the counterparty version.

881
01:17:46,537 --> 01:17:47,537
You could try to do that.

882
01:17:47,537 --> 01:17:51,537
But I have in my post the way that I think would be the best way of doing it.

883
01:17:51,537 --> 01:17:53,537
But I could easily be wrong about that.

884
01:17:53,537 --> 01:17:57,537
I'm just kind of throwing out ideas to some extent.

885
01:17:57,537 --> 01:18:07,537
But I do think this idea is one that, again, has enormous potential and is very easy to try.

886
01:18:07,537 --> 01:18:12,537
And it would be really good to have cryptographic –

887
01:18:12,537 --> 01:18:19,537
I mean, one thing to point out is that when Namecoin was coming out, when BitDNS was invented, no one wanted to –

888
01:18:19,537 --> 01:18:23,537
they didn't want to do it inside of Bitcoin L1.

889
01:18:23,537 --> 01:18:27,537
Instead, Satoshi invented merge mining to put it on a different chain.

890
01:18:27,537 --> 01:18:34,537
And the thinking of the time was that there would be lots of different chains that just did different things.

891
01:18:34,537 --> 01:18:38,537
So I don't know. That doesn't necessarily mean that they were right.

892
01:18:38,537 --> 01:18:45,537
But that's just kind of like the direction I would personally think it should take.

893
01:18:45,537 --> 01:18:48,537
OK, thank you. This is, in fact, an interesting topic.

894
01:18:48,537 --> 01:18:50,537
I have more to say about it.

895
01:18:50,537 --> 01:18:59,537
But I, of course, prefer to conversate and talk about that privately to not to diverge too much of this space.

896
01:18:59,537 --> 01:19:02,537
Thank you.

897
01:19:02,537 --> 01:19:07,537
Thank you.

898
01:19:07,537 --> 01:19:09,537
Everyone is welcome to come on up with your questions or comments.

899
01:19:09,537 --> 01:19:12,537
Raise your hand and we'll bring you to the stage.

900
01:19:12,537 --> 01:19:24,537
I don't know if – should I try to reply about what was said by Mr. Hoddle?

901
01:19:24,537 --> 01:19:33,537
Yeah, it's possible his phone lost power or maybe he left just because of not enjoying the space.

902
01:19:33,537 --> 01:19:36,537
I don't know why. But, yeah, why don't you –

903
01:19:36,537 --> 01:19:42,537
Well, I said didn't I see two Mr. – I saw some weird glitch of two Mr. Hoddles and then they both disappeared.

904
01:19:42,656 --> 01:20:01,656
Oh, I don't know. But probably that's just – if he can rejoin, he's welcome to. And I will make sure to give him time to make his points. It was a good conversation up until he left. And he's welcome to come back.

905
01:20:01,656 --> 01:20:18,656
We meet every week. So, Mr. Hoddle, if you're listening, come back next week and speak if you'd like. Paul, why don't you review the things he said that you made notes of and what your thoughts are on them?

906
01:20:21,966 --> 01:20:24,566
okay. mean, some of are obviously not relevant.

907
01:20:25,266 --> 01:20:31,046
One, said that I was wrong about the having not affecting the price, which obviously

908
01:20:31,046 --> 01:20:32,066
has nothing to do with anything.

909
01:20:32,476 --> 01:20:36,356
and obviously there's no way of knowing what affects the price with certainty.

910
01:20:37,336 --> 01:20:41,396
I Don't know like some of these were just like so weird But I think one was that the

911
01:20:41,396 --> 01:20:45,916
idea of my BIP300 giving miners more power is not really true at

912
01:20:46,066 --> 01:20:51,486
all. it allows, it gives people an option

913
01:20:51,486 --> 01:20:57,426
to move their coins into something where the

914
01:20:57,426 --> 01:20:59,656
miners have like a smidge more power.

915
01:20:59,656 --> 01:21:12,656
But every L2 has the 51 percent honesty assumption anyway. And if you stay on L1, then you're not using BIP300. So there's no change at all. There's no like giving miners more power. I don't know where that meme comes from.

916
01:21:12,656 --> 01:21:32,656
I think that is just another conflation of the L2 with the L1. Which again, if you don't understand the difference between the L1 and the L2, you missed the point completely. The whole point is that there's people who disagree and they get what they want only on L2 but not on L1. That is the entire point of the whole idea.

917
01:21:32,656 --> 01:21:58,656
Probably what he's saying comes from those Greg Maxwell Bitcoin dev email list emails to you publicly. In 2017 when he wrote that he had changed his mind on the idea of sidechains being a central part of Bitcoin's roadmap and that the 2014 paper – I'm just recalling what Maxwell wrote. This is not an exact quote. But everyone can find all the emails publicly.

918
01:21:59,656 --> 01:22:19,656
The 2014 side paper from Blockstream, he said in 2017 in that email I'm recounting that it's no longer part of his vision and it wasn't intended originally even to be a roadmap for developing Bitcoin. Maybe that's sort of the source of these criticisms.

919
01:22:20,656 --> 01:22:39,656
I don't know. That doesn't really sound that related. But I don't know. The paper contains an important mistake which is I think it's either 3.4 or 4.3, the mining centralization argument which says that basically whenever a miner collects a transaction fee from merge mining then that is bad.

920
01:22:40,656 --> 01:22:41,656
Right.

921
01:22:42,656 --> 01:22:43,656
That is clearly mistaken.

922
01:22:44,656 --> 01:22:45,656
Yeah, that's what he seemed to be saying.

923
01:22:46,656 --> 01:23:08,656
Unfortunately at this view this is the whole problem though which is that Peter Todd and Greg Maxwell are held in such enormous esteem or at least they sort of were most of the time that this one mistake is like enough to kill the whole idea and just it's bad luck that the idea happens to be the most important idea probably in Bitcoin.

924
01:23:09,656 --> 01:23:26,656
So it's not it can't really go away. And there are other things that are kind of like substitutes. But the things that are substitutes even things like roll ups or whatever they're very they have that same property the 4.3 property where miners collect revenue from merge mining them.

925
01:23:27,656 --> 01:23:34,656
So everything that would save Bitcoin honestly conflicts with that section and it's just weird momentum.

926
01:23:35,656 --> 01:23:47,656
Mostly that many people are really spineless which is they look the other way. They didn't investigate if it was true or false and they just said I would rather not disagree.

927
01:23:48,656 --> 01:23:55,656
And this is all because of the block size war anyway where it forced people into two groups and any disagreement with your group was seen as disloyalty or whatever.

928
01:23:56,656 --> 01:23:59,656
So it's a long kind of weird story.

929
01:24:00,656 --> 01:24:12,656
What do you think of this framing that Drivechain is aiming Bitcoin towards a multi-chain feature instead of being a monolithic chain. Do you agree with that framing multi-chain versus monolithic?

930
01:24:13,656 --> 01:24:32,656
I guess I would. Yes. You have the option to use the other chains but it's not necessary. But yeah I would say that the future I would say that we would only want the monolithic chain if we somehow if we could somehow understand that we had gotten it perfect right now.

931
01:24:33,656 --> 01:24:56,656
If we wanted to steal men the opposition maybe they think that the best use case of blockchain is saving digital gold and therefore the monolithic chain would by limiting Bitcoin to a monolithic architecture it would leverage the simplicity narrative that Bitcoin has over its main competitor.

932
01:24:56,656 --> 01:25:13,656
And therefore the simplicity would and this single mandate of digital gold simple payments nothing else saving and payments that simplicity narrative is is something to bank on. Is that maybe their view. Do you think.

933
01:25:13,656 --> 01:25:27,656
It's possible. My blue lines have stopped moving again so this app will probably crash and I'll have to rejoin. But I think that argument is set up in a way that goes something like this where it says we want Bitcoin to be used for saving.

934
01:25:28,656 --> 01:25:40,656
That's like the people who use it as a paperweight. And then if they if someone else discovers that they could use gold as a paperweight but it can also be used in dentistry or in electronics or in jewelry then.

935
01:25:41,656 --> 01:25:51,656
You know in the private use it they use it in electronics in the privacy of their own home. You know but then someone who's using it as a paperweight they want to come in and say you can't do that.

936
01:25:52,656 --> 01:26:09,656
And the mistake is this view that drivechain somehow reduces the paperweight. Yes. When actually it's the reverse. It actually it's what what's what's at risk of changing Bitcoin into something else.

937
01:26:10,656 --> 01:26:32,656
It was stuff like the SegWit2x and the large blockers living in the Bitcoin community. They were the ones who were going to try to change it completely. And then the really big change would be if we if Bitcoin is flippant somehow by something else and we lose the number one spot then the whole project would basically be dead.

938
01:26:33,656 --> 01:26:45,656
So those are the things that really change. If you're worried about if you want to ossification and you want savings and you want Bitcoin to only be used for a narrow subset of things for example not ordinals.

939
01:26:46,656 --> 01:26:58,656
The whole reason that there's ordinals is basically because people couldn't have fun on the other L2s. They couldn't. There's no BitAsset sidechain. There's no partially it was to troll of course and get attention.

940
01:26:59,656 --> 01:27:13,656
But again the inability to get attention was just because we don't have things like CoinNews or something and we don't have the trolling was only because the toxicity is so irrational at this point that it must be mocked.

941
01:27:14,656 --> 01:27:23,656
And as a result all three reasons were just basically the lack of sidechains was the whole reason that ordinals happened. Three different reasons but they're the same cure.

942
01:27:24,656 --> 01:27:32,656
So Paul quickly can you speak to what do you think the price of Bitcoin would be if drivechains had been activated years back.

943
01:27:33,656 --> 01:27:45,656
Well I definitely think it would be we painted a completely different picture where someone like safety and Amos would go on stage and they would say Bitcoin is the best and he would give all his normal reasons.

944
01:27:46,656 --> 01:27:54,656
And then without without skipping a beat he would say and we have all the best and brightest minds from all around the world come to work on Bitcoin and you can look at this.

945
01:27:54,656 --> 01:27:58,656
We have this one whiz kid Vitalik Buterin who has these smart contracts on Bitcoin.

946
01:27:59,656 --> 01:28:13,656
And then he started talking about Nick Szabo and smart contracts and whatever and he wouldn't even realize that in a parallel universe there's a version of himself that describing Vitalik as like a complete scammer and like a fraud and doesn't know anything or whatever.

947
01:28:14,656 --> 01:28:17,656
So that's that's an idea of like how different it would start to be.

948
01:28:18,656 --> 01:28:20,656
Roger Ver and these other people would never have left.

949
01:28:21,656 --> 01:28:28,656
The Bitcoin community would never have been preoccupied with distinguishing itself from the large blockers which is an enormous distraction.

950
01:28:29,656 --> 01:28:30,656
It should all just be Bitcoin versus the banks.

951
01:28:31,656 --> 01:28:32,656
Bitcoin versus fiat.

952
01:28:33,656 --> 01:28:39,656
But instead Bitcoin has to do all the jump through all these hoops to distinguish itself from the other crypto currencies.

953
01:28:40,656 --> 01:28:41,656
I think none of this would have happened.

954
01:28:42,656 --> 01:28:44,656
So it's the world would be very very different.

955
01:28:44,656 --> 01:28:48,656
The Zcash technology the privacy technology would be in Bitcoin already.

956
01:28:49,656 --> 01:28:51,656
The EVM would be part of Bitcoin already.

957
01:28:52,656 --> 01:28:59,656
The prediction markets project that I was interested in and that I had more or less completed by 2015 or 2016.

958
01:29:00,656 --> 01:29:01,656
That would already be on in Bitcoin.

959
01:29:02,656 --> 01:29:06,656
So this is that idea that I mentioned at the very beginning of like I'm trying to write like a book.

960
01:29:07,656 --> 01:29:09,656
And the book has like eight nine ten chapters.

961
01:29:10,656 --> 01:29:11,656
But we're stuck.

962
01:29:12,656 --> 01:29:17,656
We're very much stuck on like the first sentence of the first paragraph with everyone else catching up.

963
01:29:18,656 --> 01:29:19,656
I think the descent is very bad.

964
01:29:20,656 --> 01:29:25,656
I think the handled very badly like the activation is handled very badly.

965
01:29:26,656 --> 01:29:28,656
So I think many things would be night and day different.

966
01:29:29,656 --> 01:29:34,656
There would be like there would already have been something like ARK would have already existed for years.

967
01:29:34,656 --> 01:29:41,656
Because Jeremy Rubin had finished his CTV idea in like 2018 or so code.

968
01:29:42,656 --> 01:29:43,656
I'm guessing here.

969
01:29:44,656 --> 01:29:47,656
So that already would have existed and people had already been trying lightning and large blocks.

970
01:29:48,656 --> 01:29:49,656
Everyone would have been on the same team.

971
01:29:50,656 --> 01:29:53,656
Probably Roger Ver would just been giving out money to all these devs or whatever.

972
01:29:54,656 --> 01:29:55,656
It would be very aligned.

973
01:29:56,656 --> 01:30:01,656
And we would have set the precedent that reasonable people can disagree in Bitcoin while still being united.

974
01:30:01,656 --> 01:30:06,656
With a common mission of replacing banking with open source software.

975
01:30:07,656 --> 01:30:11,656
Which is something basically everyone supports and which is itself such enormously different.

976
01:30:12,656 --> 01:30:17,656
So I mean the whole thing we would have the scale privacy extensibility all sorted out.

977
01:30:18,656 --> 01:30:19,656
By now.

978
01:30:20,656 --> 01:30:23,656
And that would have been like 20 whatever 17 2018.

979
01:30:24,656 --> 01:30:27,656
None of that Bitcoin.com would point you to the Bitcoin Core.

980
01:30:27,656 --> 01:30:34,656
So it's hard to say but I think probably it would have taken over many small countries by now.

981
01:30:35,656 --> 01:30:37,656
And it would be it would be in wide use.

982
01:30:38,656 --> 01:30:44,656
The other thing about sidechains is they reward the programmer for making a piece of software that generates the transaction fees.

983
01:30:45,656 --> 01:30:47,656
Because the sidechain is only relying on the fees.

984
01:30:48,656 --> 01:30:49,656
You cannot pump and dump the coin.

985
01:30:50,656 --> 01:30:51,656
So there's no marketing.

986
01:30:52,656 --> 01:30:54,656
There's no like market cap of the sidechain really.

987
01:30:54,656 --> 01:30:57,656
I mean there's the number of coins there but that's not the same thing.

988
01:30:58,656 --> 01:31:02,656
So people know there would be impossible to have the narrative that you currently have.

989
01:31:03,656 --> 01:31:06,656
Where it's like someone like Bill Maher who is normally a pretty smart guy.

990
01:31:07,656 --> 01:31:11,656
There are people like that are absolutely convinced that Bitcoin has no use.

991
01:31:12,656 --> 01:31:16,656
But not only is that idea false but in the sidechain world it would be literally laughable.

992
01:31:17,656 --> 01:31:18,656
It would be impossible to believe.

993
01:31:19,656 --> 01:31:20,656
Everyone would be people be using it every day.

994
01:31:20,656 --> 01:31:24,656
There'd be new media involving organization of attention.

995
01:31:25,656 --> 01:31:31,656
So it would be like night and day difference in terms of everyday usage as well.

996
01:31:32,656 --> 01:31:36,656
And there would of course be people accepting it in their individual transactions.

997
01:31:37,656 --> 01:31:41,656
So yeah I think it's I think it's definitely possible that Bitcoin could have already.

998
01:31:42,656 --> 01:31:47,656
I mean because it's a long time but 2015, 2016 and then that's where we would have been in 2018 or 2019.

999
01:31:48,656 --> 01:31:50,656
ARK and everything would have already existed.

1000
01:31:51,656 --> 01:31:54,656
And then so that's what that is saying is in that parallel universe.

1001
01:32:03,656 --> 01:32:07,656
Inflation and lockdowns I think that actually we could have already had hyper Bitcoinization.

1002
01:32:08,656 --> 01:32:12,656
And the price would have been 15 million dollars or 20 million dollars.

1003
01:32:13,656 --> 01:32:14,656
Some likelihood of that.

1004
01:32:18,656 --> 01:32:19,656
I heard some noise so I muted.

1005
01:32:21,656 --> 01:32:28,656
So can I say saying knowing that or saying that and knowing that drivechain activation is inevitable.

1006
01:32:29,656 --> 01:32:37,656
So you know I don't know what it is 18 months 36 months but relatively soon we're going to see drivechains activated.

1007
01:32:38,656 --> 01:32:43,656
What do you think may happen to the those metrics and then the price.

1008
01:32:44,656 --> 01:32:52,656
The metrics you were just talking about in terms of utilization and activity and all that post activation.

1009
01:32:53,656 --> 01:32:54,656
How do you think the trajectory might look.

1010
01:32:57,656 --> 01:33:02,656
Well I mean it's possible that like an enormous amount of damage has already been done and we'll only recover a little bit.

1011
01:33:03,656 --> 01:33:06,656
But it's also possible that it's kind of like there's pent up demand.

1012
01:33:07,656 --> 01:33:13,656
It's also possible that many people have learned about Bitcoin and they will learn like the simplistic version.

1013
01:33:14,656 --> 01:33:17,656
And they're kind of will be like ready to go out of the gate.

1014
01:33:18,656 --> 01:33:20,656
And so it's kind of like a lot of the other stuff.

1015
01:33:21,656 --> 01:33:24,656
So for example with drivechain you can clone an altcoin.

1016
01:33:25,656 --> 01:33:29,656
And so like stuff like Zcash has done a lot of R&D for their altcoin.

1017
01:33:30,656 --> 01:33:32,656
But when it becomes a drivechain you can just copy that.

1018
01:33:33,656 --> 01:33:36,656
So in that sense it's kind of like we'll be playing catch up.

1019
01:33:37,656 --> 01:33:44,656
Like somebody who's doing a marathon and they pull a hamstring or something and they wait.

1020
01:33:45,656 --> 01:33:49,656
It's kind of like do they get demoralized and give up.

1021
01:33:50,656 --> 01:34:00,656
Or it's possible that they you know it would be a different metaphor where it's kind of like a balloon is inflating or something or something.

1022
01:34:01,656 --> 01:34:02,656
Maybe that's not good but something is like being pent up.

1023
01:34:03,656 --> 01:34:04,656
The pressure is building.

1024
01:34:05,656 --> 01:34:07,656
The temperature in the oven or in the steam engine is going up.

1025
01:34:08,656 --> 01:34:09,656
But there's like a blockage.

1026
01:34:10,656 --> 01:34:11,656
And so there's a temporary blockage.

1027
01:34:12,656 --> 01:34:17,656
And when the pressure reaches a certain amount it just bursts through and we catch up everything that we lost.

1028
01:34:18,656 --> 01:34:21,656
And maybe even then some because the momentum would be so spectacular.

1029
01:34:22,656 --> 01:34:26,656
That would itself be shocking to people that they would have to confront such a.

1030
01:34:27,656 --> 01:34:30,656
It would take them into a whole new world where all these things are possible.

1031
01:34:31,656 --> 01:34:35,656
So they would have to like they would be more open minded maybe.

1032
01:34:37,656 --> 01:34:42,656
But I also think it's unfortunately I think it's possible that it's some possibility that an enormous amount of damage has already been done.

1033
01:34:43,656 --> 01:34:45,656
And people just think of they don't think of like Bitcoin anymore.

1034
01:34:47,656 --> 01:34:54,656
If you go to like at the Miami conference and they did that stunt and they said how many of the people here own ETH or whatever.

1035
01:34:55,656 --> 01:34:56,656
And like all those people own ETH.

1036
01:34:57,656 --> 01:35:01,656
So they're like you know which is which is a consequence of the lack of sidechain.

1037
01:35:02,656 --> 01:35:09,656
So so I think it's both are possible that we only recover like 20 percent of what we could have had or that we get 110 percent.

1038
01:35:10,656 --> 01:35:17,656
And it just shoot that when people realize that it's not just toxicity and kind of closed mindedness.

1039
01:35:18,656 --> 01:35:21,656
It's really just it's this huge revolution that encompasses everything.

1040
01:35:22,656 --> 01:35:24,656
Anyway we have someone with a hand.

1041
01:35:24,656 --> 01:35:25,656
Yeah.

1042
01:35:25,656 --> 01:35:26,656
Go ahead with your question or comment.

1043
01:35:27,656 --> 01:35:28,656
Thanks for joining the stage.

1044
01:35:28,656 --> 01:35:29,656
Bitcoin is the revolution.

1045
01:35:32,656 --> 01:35:43,656
So I certainly would like to push back on that a little bit and and just say you know certainly a lot of the things you're saying is is true.

1046
01:35:44,656 --> 01:35:48,656
Like maybe we could have more innovation on the Bitcoin chain.

1047
01:35:49,656 --> 01:35:53,656
But the thing is like Bitcoin is such a special thing.

1048
01:35:54,656 --> 01:36:08,656
That everyone that runs nodes and everyone who's developing Bitcoin Core are very careful not to break this thing because if we break it then it's over.

1049
01:36:09,656 --> 01:36:16,656
And so we have to move slowly and decide like which things we're going to integrate and which things we're not.

1050
01:36:16,656 --> 01:36:23,656
Like I I've dug into drivechains a little bit and bet 300 a little bit.

1051
01:36:24,656 --> 01:36:30,656
But I still don't have an opinion after about nine months of looking at drivechains.

1052
01:36:31,656 --> 01:36:39,656
I'm still having like small discussions with people regarding like whether or not we should move forward with it.

1053
01:36:40,656 --> 01:36:46,656
If there's any true innovation that is going to help Bitcoin move forward or not.

1054
01:36:47,656 --> 01:36:52,656
So I'm just giving you a little feedback and a little pushback on on those points.

1055
01:36:53,656 --> 01:36:58,656
But also I'm going to recognize a lot of the things you're saying could be true.

1056
01:36:58,656 --> 01:37:01,656
It's kind of like a what if situation.

1057
01:37:02,656 --> 01:37:05,656
So just a little pushback there.

1058
01:37:06,656 --> 01:37:07,656
That's my opinion.

1059
01:37:08,656 --> 01:37:11,656
I think that is very fair and I think you're right that it isn't.

1060
01:37:12,656 --> 01:37:16,656
Certainly I agree with you that it's a special thing and we don't want to break it and everyone is very careful.

1061
01:37:16,656 --> 01:37:18,656
And you know I think I was including me.

1062
01:37:19,656 --> 01:37:29,656
I was very careful when I was designing it back in 2015 which was a long time ago to make sure that it would have all the properties that people wanted.

1063
01:37:30,656 --> 01:37:36,656
So namely that it gives the large blockers what they want so that they don't campaign and have this hard fork that the small blockers don't want.

1064
01:37:37,656 --> 01:37:46,656
And so also that the small blockers are not negatively affected in any way by the optional large blocks.

1065
01:37:47,656 --> 01:37:55,656
And that was very careful when I designed it and then I took time to try to communicate it with my post in November 2015.

1066
01:37:55,656 --> 01:38:06,656
And then I did some presentations about the drivechain and the sidechain risks in 2016 in June and then in September.

1067
01:38:07,656 --> 01:38:12,656
And then I was invited to present at Scaling 3 which I did on sidechain scaling.

1068
01:38:13,656 --> 01:38:19,656
And so yes I did do all that and I think it's just like it's perfectly fair for you to say well I've been looking at it for nine months.

1069
01:38:20,656 --> 01:38:27,656
But yeah I think if you would look at it from my point of view nine months for me was like June 2016.

1070
01:38:28,656 --> 01:38:32,656
As after having like you know come up with it from scratch from a blank piece of paper.

1071
01:38:33,656 --> 01:38:36,656
So I think it actually has moved very slowly.

1072
01:38:37,656 --> 01:38:40,656
And I think now it's just actually it comes in and out.

1073
01:38:40,656 --> 01:38:51,656
But I think what is happening is that I think what really is a bunch of other ideas are maybe falling slightly out of favor like ideas come in and out of favor.

1074
01:38:52,656 --> 01:39:00,656
And I think it's just one that is slowly accumulated and it is starting to get more traction now.

1075
01:39:01,656 --> 01:39:07,656
But yeah I would say if someone is I do think that's kind of a depressing thought that it could take someone nine months.

1076
01:39:07,656 --> 01:39:12,656
Like someone could be I don't doubt your scholarship or effort.

1077
01:39:13,656 --> 01:39:21,656
But yeah I do find to me it's just a little counter that counts up to 13,150 plus a bunch of other ideas that everyone already accepts.

1078
01:39:22,656 --> 01:39:27,656
And but that doesn't mean that you know it's apparently very counterintuitive.

1079
01:39:28,656 --> 01:39:34,656
I think some of the things about it that are counterintuitive are like psychological or social which is not trying to.

1080
01:39:34,656 --> 01:39:41,656
I'm only trying to explain to the audience why it is the case that such a good idea would have gone.

1081
01:39:42,574 --> 01:39:57,774
Like underrepresented for so long. And part of it is that I never actually made like a pull request or anything like that. So it's kind of always although I'm working on that now I still to this day we have not actually done that although we are working on that.

1082
01:39:58,694 --> 01:40:06,494
I kind of thought we should discuss the idea first exactly what you're saying about being careful. I kind of thought well I'll discuss the idea first then everyone will agree that we should do it.

1083
01:40:07,054 --> 01:40:13,054
Then we'll do the pull request into the newest version of Bitcoin Core and then we'll have to do it and rebase it or whatever.

1084
01:40:14,453 --> 01:40:34,974
So I completely agree with you with all that but I think these some of these social and psychological reasons involve the block size war where people just they have a heuristic that is like if the large blockers get what they want then the idea must be bad which is kind of the opposite of the truth because the whole point was this is a way of both people both groups getting what they want.

1085
01:40:36,493 --> 01:40:59,334
And that was the idea. And that's sort of why I was hated by both sides. And in fact if you come to the spaces two spaces ago or whatever we had people from Bitcoin SV in here saying that you know then I shouldn't my way it shouldn't be good and it should all be on L1 large block infinite L1 blocks. So I get it from both sides.

1086
01:41:00,294 --> 01:41:23,014
But yeah I just I do think it's fair for me to point out that I 100 percent although I 100 percent support being careful at a certain point I do wonder like so much time will time passes and you know it's like now this is like eight years which is like two high schools.

1087
01:41:23,014 --> 01:41:46,374
It's kind of like one hand there's being careful and then the other hand is like there is like being a bubble boy and you're so careful and then really the thing that gets you is some other some completely different thing like you know what I mean like we could have central bank digital currency or WeChat pay when Bitcoin was first invented there were no QR codes.

1088
01:41:47,374 --> 01:42:07,534
I remember the QR code thing. I remember I think it was a 2010 or 2011. Someone someone at the business school that I was at they were saying the business school I was near they were saying like we're doing this thing with QR codes and I was like this this sounds silly.

1089
01:42:07,534 --> 01:42:20,934
He's like yeah. He's like I actually think it's pretty dumb but I think they will catch on eventually. And that was the first time I've ever heard of QR codes. And I don't remember when I first heard of Venmo but I think it was pretty sure it was years after that.

1090
01:42:20,934 --> 01:42:50,894
And so this idea of just being able to send money to people that was very very new. Like Bitcoin could have gone in a different direction if we had been slightly more bold maybe we would have had different problems that would have been worse but I don't think it's the case that automatically being more cautious is always the safest thing actually is very very possible to be too cautious and actually to be killed.

1091
01:42:50,934 --> 01:43:07,294
By doing that there's no real like there's no real way of avoiding risk. And so the picture I'm trying to paint is like Bitcoin could have we could have had phone wallets and QR codes we could have we could have had all that like right out of the gate of like 2012 or something.

1092
01:43:07,294 --> 01:43:25,253
And then maybe there would be no Venmo today. Maybe there would be no WeChat pay today. Maybe. Or maybe not. Maybe everything would have been worse. I don't know. I'm just trying to paint a little bit of a picture of where caution gets you which is sometimes great and sometimes not.

1093
01:43:25,253 --> 01:43:51,734
So another one last thing I'd say is you know I designed it from scratch to be it's it's supposed to be cautious. It's supposed to not have any negative effects on L1. That is the whole point. And people say it is frustrating to hear like year after year. People say well what about the negative effects on L1. But it's like it's designed not to have any.

1094
01:43:51,734 --> 01:44:17,014
So it's like those people those people are kind of irritating because they haven't read anything that I put out. They haven't tested the software. They don't know anything. I mean they ask a valid question but it's like you know it's like what if you went to someone says you go up to Henry Ford invents the Model T and then people say well I mean how do you get it to move.

1095
01:44:17,014 --> 01:44:35,813
And you're like well have you ever seen one. You know did you have you seen one anywhere. Did you come to the shop and just look at one you'll see it moves. And they say how does it move without a horse. They say it moves as an engine it has gasoline. They say well that's too complicated. I'm not going to look into that.

1096
01:44:35,813 --> 01:44:56,693
I placed in the nest super test nets essay. Bitcoin is a revolution. Thanks for your question or comment. Please follow up with more now if you have any more thoughts. But in the meantime I just wanted to point out this essay from Super Testnet might speak to some of the ideas you mentioned.

1097
01:44:56,693 --> 01:45:20,054
He Super Testnet is a developer focused on Bitcoin Nostr and lightning. And he wrote this great essay this year explaining why he is emphatically in favor of drivechain. And he does a steel man analysis of the critics and their concerns and why those concerns aren't right. You should check it out if you'd like.

1098
01:45:20,054 --> 01:45:49,093
I will. I just followed him and I've never seen any of that research before. So it's it's it's really hard to keep up with everything. And I I definitely haven't dove in to running it running a test net node. I'm sorry. Yeah. A test net node. And I have not done anything with drivechain.

1099
01:45:50,133 --> 01:46:17,334
I have not done anything with drivechains hands on myself. So again I've got a lot of work to do. I've just been listening to different opinions and kind of keeping up with you know what what people are saying about it one way you know versus the other. So way too much stuff I think forever to keep track of. I completely 100 percent agree with that.

1100
01:46:17,334 --> 01:46:46,933
That's another reason why I think drivechain is actually a good thing because the idea that in the past it was it was the case that people like Greg Maxwell knew literally everything about the crypto industry. And it was the case that 100 percent of the ideas out there were either good and they had not been there in Bitcoin or it hadn't been tried anywhere or they were terrible ideas. And in the terrible ideas were in some kind of altcoin. That was the that was the picture you could paint.

1101
01:46:47,494 --> 01:47:15,014
From 2011 or whatever until maybe 2017 or 2018 was when it started to fall apart because it's now not it's just impossible for anyone to know about all the stuff that exists and how it whether or not it has product market fit is a completely different question for whether or not the cryptography works or whether or not people will find it to be worth the risks or worth the cost benefit or whatever.

1102
01:47:15,334 --> 01:47:42,214
So now it's literally no one on planet Earth can know all of the ideas that are out there. And that is partly why it is such a bad system. We have a Bitcoin Core where you have to justify the idea. A new idea to everyone that will just not work. There's too much stuff happening and an enormous percentage of that is worthless garbage. 99 percent of that is worthless garbage. But that is not really the point.

1103
01:47:42,214 --> 01:47:58,774
But the point is there's so much that some of it is actually pretty good. You certainly see that with the Monero taking over darknet markets for example. And there's plenty of other ideas that I think are good.

1104
01:47:58,774 --> 01:48:27,414
Paul, could you comment on the upcoming halving and what do you think its significance is, if any, regarding Bitcoin, Ethereum, and all the other things that are going to happen in the near future?

1105
01:48:28,774 --> 01:48:34,534
Its community, its price, its narratives, miner revenue, things like that.

1106
01:48:34,534 --> 01:48:47,813
Well, it will certainly cut miner revenue in half. Well, I suppose not quite because they get paid the subsidy plus the fees. But it will be cut, you know, about in half.

1107
01:48:47,813 --> 01:49:00,214
I don't know why. People have like a preoccupation with it, which I poke fun at. I am a believer in the efficient markets hypothesis, which is to say publicly available information is priced in.

1108
01:49:00,214 --> 01:49:18,214
Now, I don't necessarily believe, like, society is creating new information every day all the time and information spreads from mind to mind. You know what I mean? Like, it's not like you have heard every single song in the universe and you know your favorite song to listen to today.

1109
01:49:18,214 --> 01:49:24,214
At some point there will be a first time you heard a piece of music, that will be the first time you ever heard that band in your entire life.

1110
01:49:24,214 --> 01:49:44,214
So, the information, it spreads slowly. It's like a little sphere. It's generated and it spreads around the world, you know, in a little circle. So, new information is created all the time and it moves at a non-infinite speed, a slow speed from mind to mind.

1111
01:49:44,214 --> 01:50:00,214
But, you know, I make fun of people. The halving, people say, oh, the halving reduces, cuts the supply in half. But that's not true, you know. It's like that would be cutting the supply from 21 million to whatever, 10.5 million.

1112
01:50:00,214 --> 01:50:18,214
Yeah, the effect of each halving is half as much as the prior one. So, whatever effect halvings have, it's all known in advance and each one is half as significant as the prior one by nature of what halvings are.

1113
01:50:18,214 --> 01:50:36,214
Do you think that it's perplexing and just incredible that the major, the leading objection to drivechain is that the miners will make a lot of money from it when that's like the fact that miners won't make money in the future threatens Bitcoin's viability in the long term?

1114
01:50:36,214 --> 01:50:52,214
Yeah, and it's also just mean-spirited and it's against growth, it's against usage, it's against people enjoying Bitcoin. So, it's a very anti-Bitcoin position in many different overlapping ways. But I think it's kind of, it didn't really happen that way.

1115
01:50:52,214 --> 01:51:04,214
What happened was people were arguing, Peter Todd was arguing against large blocks correctly and valiantly. So, back in 2013, he made this video, Keep Bitcoin Free or whatever.

1116
01:51:04,214 --> 01:51:22,214
And he made it just slight, 99.9% of what he said was correct and very important and I was in full agreement with him at the time. But he kind of overstepped slightly one notch and I can get into that slightly if you wish.

1117
01:51:22,214 --> 01:51:36,214
But it's not really important. The point is just that this led to Peter Todd's mysterious critique of merged mining. And this is just kind of a historical accident.

1118
01:51:36,214 --> 01:51:53,214
It's my view that he had this Let's Talk Bitcoin interview in April 2014 and then Blockstream had their sidechains white paper in October 2014. And that's where this section about merged mining I think popped in there, is my guess.

1119
01:51:53,214 --> 01:52:05,214
Because one of the reasons why I know that to be the case is that the episode when that happened was I think called Tree Chains. Peter Todd had a competing idea to sidechains called Tree Chains that he sort of abandoned.

1120
01:52:05,214 --> 01:52:18,214
I think I know why or I think I know how that idea slowly transformed into RGB, which we can get into, but this is all like very nuanced. So the point is it didn't really start this way.

1121
01:52:19,214 --> 01:52:31,214
What happened was there was a negative comment about merged mining that was incorrect, but it was a tiny detail in the old context of L1, large blockism.

1122
01:52:32,214 --> 01:52:46,214
And then that led to merged mining and then people generalized the wrong way. They just said like eventually Blockstream started to say sidechains can't happen, even though they were previously the originator of the sidechain idea.

1123
01:52:47,214 --> 01:52:59,214
They said that it couldn't happen. And then what happened was people just assumed they said it was what they call motivated reasoning where they said the conclusion is sidechain is bad and then they just started making stuff up.

1124
01:53:00,214 --> 01:53:16,214
And what I have been doing over the last few years and what the other people who support drivechain have been doing is we have been pushing back against all that and then those people have just retreated to the original point.

1125
01:53:16,214 --> 01:53:33,214
So it's not like that was the reason the whole time. It was really just a bunch of vague, poorly thought out mistakes, which is fine. Of course, in any technical discussion, there's going to be innovation and back and forth and mistakes and things.

1126
01:53:33,214 --> 01:53:48,214
But that's just what happened. It was like people slowly retreated towards this. And then this last idea will eventually fall. The last idea is that merged mining is bad, but the reality is merged mining is just mining.

1127
01:53:48,214 --> 01:54:02,214
It's just miners doing what they were doing before and collecting money for doing it. The fact that it doesn't affect L1 but still pays the miners money, that is just what makes it merged mining instead of regular mining.

1128
01:54:02,214 --> 01:54:17,214
But there's no difference in principle and there's no difference even in the miners loyalty because their loyalty to L1 is whatever that amount is. In fact, their loyalty to L1 increases because L1 is the only chain that has the block subsidy.

1129
01:54:17,214 --> 01:54:30,214
So for the next 100 years or so, merged mining will be boosting the value of all coins, including the block subsidy coins. So it's just a purely good thing in every way and there's nothing bad about it at all.

1130
01:54:31,214 --> 01:54:48,214
But I think merged mining is just mysterious to people and only 25 people understood it. In context, it really wasn't so much of a mistake because they were saying large blocks are bad because it's harder to run a node and also it's harder to mine.

1131
01:54:48,214 --> 01:55:07,214
And they were right about that because every miner needs to run a node. So the only mistake was to notice that if something does not make it more expensive to run a node, this is the important part, if it does not make it more expensive to run a L1 node, then it doesn't matter if it's a mining cost.

1132
01:55:07,214 --> 01:55:18,214
Because the mining costs are driven by the difficulty, they're driven by ASICs, they're driven by finding cheap power and they have all kinds of economies of scale and diseconomies of scale.

1133
01:55:19,214 --> 01:55:46,214
So it was kind of a tiny detail that accidentally expanded and has now contracted back to that and that detail will eventually fall away and miners will eventually – I mean I think the halving is a perfect example of miners will look – miners have been cutting costs their whole lives and I think now some of them have turned to the idea of can we get more revenue.

1134
01:55:46,214 --> 01:56:14,214
And the answer is yes, they can get 1,000 times, 10,000 times more revenue eventually from merged mining and that is why BIP300 is basically inevitable and it's a good thing that they get – it's honestly frankly a very good thing that they get the merged mining revenues this way and not in some kind of other way that someone else hacked together, someone who did not really care about protecting L1 and protecting Bitcoin.

1135
01:56:14,214 --> 01:56:29,214
So it's a deep irony that people think that Drivechain would have a negative impact on L1 when in reality if I had not been working hard this whole time probably L1 would be in danger of some kind of worse version of Drivechain that does not protect L1.

1136
01:56:29,214 --> 01:56:32,214
So it's just an irony but you're welcome.

1137
01:56:32,214 --> 01:56:36,214
Yes, Mr. hand again, Bitcoin revolution guy.

1138
01:56:37,214 --> 01:56:53,214
So do you think there's very much of a risk of the potential of more or less diluting value through Drivechains?

1139
01:56:54,214 --> 01:57:07,214
Well not really because that would imply that like when you take $20 in cash out of an ATM that that is like diluting the value of the US dollar or something.

1140
01:57:07,214 --> 01:57:12,214
Could I also take a quick stab at responding to that Paul?

1141
01:57:12,214 --> 01:57:13,214
Sure.

1142
01:57:13,214 --> 01:57:20,214
The essence of a sidechain is that it shares Bitcoin's monetary policy and miners.

1143
01:57:20,214 --> 01:57:32,214
So when there is demand to use a Bitcoin sidechain that necessarily boosts the price of Bitcoin because it's demand for Bitcoin.

1144
01:57:32,214 --> 01:57:45,214
The only way to have synthetic Bitcoin on a sidechain is by locking up Bitcoin in a hash rate escrow at a one to one ratio.

1145
01:57:45,214 --> 01:58:01,214
So if there are 10,000 Bitcoin circulating on a large block sidechain and another 10,000 Bitcoin circulating on a privacy sidechain and another 10,000 Bitcoin circulating on an Oracle sidechain.

1146
01:58:01,214 --> 01:58:06,214
All of these different interesting and exciting experimental ideas for sidechains.

1147
01:58:06,214 --> 01:58:22,214
If any of them or all of them are very successful, that means that Bitcoin's price will have risen and Bitcoin's miner revenue will have risen because the sidechains share Bitcoin's monetary policy and miners.

1148
01:58:27,214 --> 01:58:28,214
Thank you for that answer.

1149
01:58:28,214 --> 01:58:36,214
I know that was certainly one of my biggest concerns was just are we printing more money?

1150
01:58:36,214 --> 01:58:37,214
Like is this kind of.

1151
01:58:37,214 --> 01:58:44,214
But you know what actually is diluting and what actually is printing more money is just the mere presence of altcoins in a way.

1152
01:58:44,214 --> 01:58:48,214
In fact, Gavin Andresen had a tweet that I really liked and I thought he was right.

1153
01:58:49,214 --> 01:58:53,214
And I remember saying this at I think it's around table three.

1154
01:58:53,214 --> 01:59:02,214
And there was a wide agreement that it's like the altcoins are a sneaky way of getting around the 21 million coin limit.

1155
01:59:02,214 --> 01:59:04,214
And probably someone can still find that.

1156
01:59:04,214 --> 01:59:07,214
But it's actually the altcoins that do the dilution.

1157
01:59:07,214 --> 01:59:13,214
And the whole point of a sidechain is that when you launch the new piece of software, there are no coins there.

1158
01:59:13,214 --> 01:59:15,214
There's nothing there.

1159
01:59:15,214 --> 01:59:17,214
And you move the coins back there and back.

1160
01:59:17,214 --> 01:59:19,214
It's the same 21 million Bitcoin.

1161
01:59:19,214 --> 01:59:23,214
So it's the sidechains are the anti dilution technology, really.

1162
01:59:24,214 --> 01:59:29,214
Yeah, it's exactly as Adam Back once put in a tweet on a drivechain thread.

1163
01:59:29,214 --> 01:59:33,214
He wrote that drivechain is innovation without seigniorage.

1164
01:59:33,214 --> 01:59:37,214
So your question about dilution is a great question.

1165
01:59:37,214 --> 01:59:38,214
The answer is no.

1166
01:59:38,214 --> 01:59:40,214
There is no dilution.

1167
01:59:40,214 --> 01:59:53,214
It's the opposite that the sidechains enable people to opt in to features not available on Bitcoin's main chain while still using Bitcoin's monetary policy and miners.

1168
01:59:55,972 --> 02:00:05,772
And we believe as drivechainers that if this is not part of Bitcoin's roadmap, then Bitcoin is at a much higher likelihood of failure.

1169
02:00:06,812 --> 02:00:10,012
Bitcoin's success in the future is not guaranteed.

1170
02:00:11,252 --> 02:00:17,572
And the probability of total failure of the project is not zero.

1171
02:00:18,172 --> 02:00:23,172
But with drivechain, we think the probability of success is higher.

1172
02:00:24,172 --> 02:00:25,931
So it's worth doing for that reason.

1173
02:00:32,452 --> 02:00:36,611
Everyone's free to come on up and ask questions and share comments or criticisms.

1174
02:00:38,012 --> 02:00:44,251
Oh, I see we have a distinguished guest in the audience, Mr. Brian Trolls, who I enjoyed meeting in Miami.

1175
02:00:45,091 --> 02:00:47,492
Why don't you come on up and speak if you'd like.

1176
02:00:48,571 --> 02:00:51,052
Don't no need to hide down there in the audience.

1177
02:00:51,132 --> 02:00:59,851
You can join us, but we'll make very sure that you'll have plenty of time to make your points, you know, speak at length if you'd like.

1178
02:01:01,491 --> 02:01:03,372
Or just listen if you prefer.

1179
02:01:09,012 --> 02:01:11,292
Come on, Shinobi. Don't be shy.

1180
02:01:11,292 --> 02:01:23,012
I certainly like the idea of of miners being able to capture more revenue because that just it just gives the entire network more security.

1181
02:01:26,652 --> 02:01:28,292
I yes, it does.

1182
02:01:30,611 --> 02:01:33,611
So so that I mean, I certainly see that as a benefit.

1183
02:01:33,732 --> 02:01:46,652
I guess I hate to say I go back to that question that a lot of altcoins, you know, throw around that utility word a lot.

1184
02:01:48,132 --> 02:01:48,652
So.

1185
02:01:48,652 --> 02:01:59,332
What's the biggest benefit? What's what's the utility? What's that? What's that killer app that you see drivechains going after first?

1186
02:01:59,412 --> 02:01:59,792
lot.

1187
02:02:02,392 --> 02:02:06,392
So, what's the biggest benefit?

1188
02:02:07,092 --> 02:02:08,412
What's the utility?

1189
02:02:09,092 --> 02:02:14,692
What's that killer app that you see Drivechains going

1190
02:02:14,692 --> 02:02:15,732
after first?

1191
02:02:18,032 --> 02:02:19,212
That's a question.

1192
02:02:19,550 --> 02:02:25,210
think there are actually many, but in a way, I'd like to evade

1193
02:02:25,210 --> 02:02:27,170
answer. I'm going to answer the question.

1194
02:02:27,290 --> 02:02:28,930
I'm going to give you more answers than you even want.

1195
02:02:29,750 --> 02:02:35,150
But first, kind of evade the question by saying the fact that you can tolerate

1196
02:02:35,150 --> 02:02:38,970
disagreement, that in itself is pretty cool.

1197
02:02:41,047 --> 02:02:45,027
And we don't even know what future disagreements there are or what future new, great

1198
02:02:45,027 --> 02:02:48,747
ideas people will come up with.

1199
02:02:48,887 --> 02:02:49,387
that's what I say.

1200
02:02:49,587 --> 02:02:53,607
first, killer app is solving the problem of a heterogeneity, the fact that people are

1201
02:02:53,607 --> 02:02:55,967
different and transactions are also different.

1202
02:02:57,407 --> 02:02:59,145
if Ross, you have a Ross Albright situation

1203
02:02:59,145 --> 02:03:04,205
situation where he's running Silk Road, is this drug empire, illegal drug empire,

1204
02:03:04,345 --> 02:03:10,285
he's Bitcoin only website, the first Bitcoin only website, which

1205
02:03:10,285 --> 02:03:12,365
I said, that's just a little bit of humor and irony,

1206
02:03:13,845 --> 02:03:19,083
you can live in a world where he's doing that and in a world where he's

1207
02:03:19,243 --> 02:03:24,043
doing that as Dread Pirate Roberts, but then as Ross Albright, the person, he's buying

1208
02:03:24,043 --> 02:03:26,223
coffee in San Francisco.

1209
02:03:28,103 --> 02:03:30,843
Well, those are very different types of transactions.

1210
02:03:31,023 --> 02:03:34,583
So not only are people different, but transactions are different, and we want to expand

1211
02:03:34,583 --> 02:03:38,323
to fill every space and every type of thing.

1212
02:03:41,180 --> 02:03:45,900
so that's kind of like the just that in itself is pretty important thing.

1213
02:03:46,520 --> 02:03:50,520
would say scale is another answer where I didn't really plan this to be the case, but

1214
02:03:50,520 --> 02:03:53,620
it just turned out that scaling Bitcoin is very hard.

1215
02:03:54,300 --> 02:03:58,860
And you could have large block versions and small block versions and medium block

1216
02:03:58,958 --> 02:04:03,158
versions and unlimited black versions, they could all coexist and if they screwed up

1217
02:04:03,158 --> 02:04:06,898
and picked a larger, too large block size and destroyed themselves, it would only

1218
02:04:06,898 --> 02:04:11,538
affect themselves. because the block size war was about such a simple thing of one

1219
02:04:11,538 --> 02:04:12,098
parameter,

1220
02:04:14,398 --> 02:04:18,858
but there were so strong feelings about it and it warped the

1221
02:04:18,895 --> 02:04:20,775
community, I think, forever.

1222
02:04:22,055 --> 02:04:23,635
It's impossible not to point that out.

1223
02:04:24,515 --> 02:04:28,835
think privacy is big, too, and one of the first sidechain I made was the Zcash

1224
02:04:28,835 --> 02:04:31,575
sidechain after the test one that we made,

1225
02:04:33,355 --> 02:04:38,833
me and the other people who worked for and also support me and they were

1226
02:04:38,953 --> 02:04:43,693
Labs people. I think the Zcash sidechain, that one, I wanted to do that one first

1227
02:04:43,693 --> 02:04:47,733
because I thought, the more this project goes on, the harder it is to advocate for

1228
02:04:47,733 --> 02:04:51,773
privacy openly. So it's like, it seems shady.

1229
02:04:52,073 --> 02:04:55,573
But if you just do it first, then it's a faint accomplice.

1230
02:04:56,053 --> 02:04:57,533
It's over. a done deal.

1231
02:04:58,173 --> 02:04:58,770
We have

1232
02:04:58,790 --> 02:05:03,630
a special guest on the speaker stage, legendary Bitcoin or Fiatjaf, welcome.

1233
02:05:05,410 --> 02:05:08,310
Yes, so privacy, I think, is big.

1234
02:05:08,590 --> 02:05:12,510
Like, how can you be a Bitcoiner and not support increased privacy?

1235
02:05:13,430 --> 02:05:17,770
I think, though everyone who doesn't support the ZCash sidechain, at least in

1236
02:05:17,770 --> 02:05:18,670
principle, maybe they

1237
02:05:18,708 --> 02:05:21,808
don't use it or maybe they don't, it's not their number one thing.

1238
02:05:22,548 --> 02:05:26,748
But I think if you don't support that in principle, that's kind of suspicious almost.

1239
02:05:26,948 --> 02:05:28,288
I wonder about these people.

1240
02:05:29,508 --> 02:05:33,928
And similarly with the block size war, say, do these people really want what's best for

1241
02:05:33,928 --> 02:05:38,588
everyone or are they just kind of like on a power trip and

1242
02:05:38,645 --> 02:05:43,685
they just want to win you know if you give people what they want then it seems like

1243
02:05:43,685 --> 02:05:48,425
you're highly motivated to help Bitcoin and help Bitcoiners but if you just want small

1244
02:05:48,425 --> 02:05:53,025
blockers to suffer or large blockers to suffer I always thought there's something weird

1245
02:05:53,025 --> 02:05:58,583
about that I think the the confusion part of the thing holding Bitcoin back is

1246
02:05:58,583 --> 02:06:03,803
confusion. regular normal person shows up to this market and they see, they go on

1247
02:06:03,803 --> 02:06:07,743
CoinMarketCap.com and they see all these options and they think, and I have friends who

1248
02:06:07,743 --> 02:06:12,423
are pretty smart, know, I would say, they come up to me and they ask me, you know, what

1249
02:06:12,423 --> 02:06:16,283
do you think about Cardano or whatever, you know, what do you think about Chainlink?

1250
02:06:17,723 --> 02:06:18,463
And you know,

1251
02:06:20,241 --> 02:06:22,141
I think that holds Bitcoin back.

1252
02:06:22,341 --> 02:06:26,161
think it would have been better if none of this stuff had been invented and it would

1253
02:06:26,161 --> 02:06:29,721
have been suppressed, would have been greatly suppressed if there were sidechain

1254
02:06:29,721 --> 02:06:34,521
versions of everything and there's none of, I think that is the dilution and that

1255
02:06:34,521 --> 02:06:36,201
confuses many normal people.

1256
02:06:36,881 --> 02:06:38,261
And why shouldn't they be confused?

1257
02:06:38,381 --> 02:06:38,458
After

1258
02:06:38,578 --> 02:06:43,418
all if it's their first day hearing about it They to them they go to a Bitcoin site and

1259
02:06:43,418 --> 02:06:46,798
they read something they go to a Cardano site and they read something and it's just

1260
02:06:46,798 --> 02:06:49,538
equally perplexing to them on day one.

1261
02:06:49,978 --> 02:06:52,978
So I think the scam reason is a big reason

1262
02:06:54,938 --> 02:06:58,396
I think also the security budget is a good reason which is that it's

1263
02:06:58,576 --> 02:07:03,536
is it. Unfortunately, when I bring this up, have to wander through this swamp of like,

1264
02:07:03,576 --> 02:07:05,936
which misunderstandings do people have?

1265
02:07:05,996 --> 02:07:07,556
But I wrote a big post about this.

1266
02:07:08,756 --> 02:07:14,116
fee rates are low and we only use L1 blocks and the L1 block size is small and fixed,

1267
02:07:14,796 --> 02:07:17,456
then the total amount of money paid to miners is going to be small.

1268
02:07:17,456 --> 02:07:18,333
And that

1269
02:07:18,373 --> 02:07:22,713
means that we won't I think Satoshi understood this.

1270
02:07:22,873 --> 02:07:26,733
Per transaction, you're only going to be getting like 50 cents or 75 cents.

1271
02:07:27,133 --> 02:07:29,133
That's just the way it's going to go.

1272
02:07:30,653 --> 02:07:34,453
And I think Satoshi knew that and he knew that, you know, in the future there will be

1273
02:07:35,873 --> 02:07:37,073
many, many transactions.

1274
02:07:37,253 --> 02:07:38,173
And he knew that there would be

1275
02:07:38,271 --> 02:07:42,991
merge mined. He explains all this on Bitcoin Talk, but it's just not remembered as

1276
02:07:42,991 --> 02:07:48,751
easily. Because of the scaling war and the altcoin scams, it became very unfashionable

1277
02:07:48,751 --> 02:07:51,071
to bring up other chains or other use cases.

1278
02:07:51,311 --> 02:07:54,331
so all this was sort of buried, but it's all still there.

1279
02:07:54,991 --> 02:07:58,171
Just look it up or just read my merge mining post about security budget.

1280
02:07:58,908 --> 02:08:00,108
I think that's a great reason.

1281
02:08:02,888 --> 02:08:06,708
think the fundamental value is a...

1282
02:08:06,708 --> 02:08:09,108
I think one reason is also the ossifying L1.

1283
02:08:09,308 --> 02:08:11,908
A lot of people want to do that, but they don't know how.

1284
02:08:12,788 --> 02:08:14,048
They clearly want it.

1285
02:08:14,208 --> 02:08:17,708
Like a Michael Saylor type person wants ossification of L1,

1286
02:08:18,486 --> 02:08:22,626
but they don't really know, they just think the way to achieve it is to kind of look

1287
02:08:22,626 --> 02:08:27,146
the other way or just kind of bury your head in the sand or just kind of declare that

1288
02:08:27,146 --> 02:08:28,046
it has already happened.

1289
02:08:29,486 --> 02:08:33,506
I don't think that will work in a world where you have open source software and

1290
02:08:33,506 --> 02:08:37,006
tremendous technological progress in all dimensions,

1291
02:08:38,863 --> 02:08:41,703
including stuff like faster internet, faster hard drive space.

1292
02:08:41,803 --> 02:08:46,803
Because the more the internet speeds and hard drive increase, the more the optimal

1293
02:08:46,803 --> 02:08:48,483
block size also increases.

1294
02:08:49,563 --> 02:08:54,583
And so then it just means more disagreement and debate, restarting the block size war

1295
02:08:54,583 --> 02:08:58,021
yet again. And that means that's a bad thing.

1296
02:08:58,141 --> 02:09:02,041
would be better to have the small block fixed, but also have other chains with

1297
02:09:02,041 --> 02:09:05,801
different block sizes able to come into existence and then out of existence.

1298
02:09:06,181 --> 02:09:08,021
So all of that would be great.

1299
02:09:10,581 --> 02:09:12,101
I think that's L1.

1300
02:09:12,241 --> 02:09:13,641
Freezing L1 is big.

1301
02:09:13,761 --> 02:09:15,421
We don't want L1 disagreement.

1302
02:09:16,041 --> 02:09:17,601
I can go into lots of detail about that.

1303
02:09:17,721 --> 02:09:17,861
give

1304
02:09:17,959 --> 02:09:19,759
presentations about that.

1305
02:09:21,039 --> 02:09:23,119
Fundamental value. I'm coming to the last two reasons.

1306
02:09:24,079 --> 02:09:27,259
value of the coin, the Bill Maher thing I mentioned before.

1307
02:09:27,639 --> 02:09:29,859
the final reason is that there's really no risk.

1308
02:09:30,319 --> 02:09:32,399
It's a thing you can try and then just shut off.

1309
02:09:33,139 --> 02:09:34,339
So there's really no downside.

1310
02:09:35,739 --> 02:09:37,839
But the fundamental value point is

1311
02:09:37,896 --> 02:09:43,876
also I run into opposition because ever since the block size war

1312
02:09:43,876 --> 02:09:49,656
it has become fashionable to mock people who want to

1313
02:09:49,656 --> 02:09:50,436
use the coin.

1314
02:09:50,716 --> 02:09:53,556
You mock them as Roger Vira people.

1315
02:09:54,976 --> 02:09:56,556
But this is obviously a mistake.

1316
02:09:57,316 --> 02:09:57,834
We want us

1317
02:09:57,854 --> 02:10:03,314
for to be a store of value, the best store of value it can possibly be, and the best

1318
02:10:03,314 --> 02:10:06,534
medium of exchange and everything else, used for everything.

1319
02:10:08,394 --> 02:10:14,214
And there are many use cases that I think clearly have value, including the bit names

1320
02:10:14,214 --> 02:10:17,654
and the prediction market, the bit DNS name coin idea and the

1321
02:10:17,771 --> 02:10:21,631
prediction market. I think I have enormous value and my personal belief is that

1322
02:10:21,631 --> 02:10:27,431
prediction markets are the like that will the history of

1323
02:10:27,431 --> 02:10:33,091
mankind will be something like fire was invented, writing was invented, the printing

1324
02:10:33,091 --> 02:10:37,091
press was invented, the internet was invented, and then prediction markets will be what

1325
02:10:37,091 --> 02:10:37,631
were invented.

1326
02:10:38,189 --> 02:10:39,749
That's my personal opinion.

1327
02:10:42,789 --> 02:10:45,489
And so I think all that's big and then I think there's no risk.

1328
02:10:46,649 --> 02:10:49,109
So I gave you a giant list there.

1329
02:10:51,209 --> 02:10:52,089
Fiat, Jeff, welcome.

1330
02:11:05,426 --> 02:11:09,026
If you ever can't hear you're muted, also my thing is frozen again and it will probably

1331
02:11:09,026 --> 02:11:14,486
crash. It looked like his connection might have glitched, unfortunately.

1332
02:11:14,766 --> 02:11:17,566
think unfortunately it happens to a glitch here in the last

1333
02:11:17,604 --> 02:11:21,564
few weeks, which is kind of weird because we've had such great people.

1334
02:11:22,544 --> 02:11:23,524
What can you do?

1335
02:11:23,884 --> 02:11:29,844
It's also possible he just came up to help the space get more views and can't...

1336
02:11:29,844 --> 02:11:30,644
But what about his?

1337
02:11:30,884 --> 02:11:33,984
He has the best podcast in all of Bitcoin and now he's ending it.

1338
02:11:34,824 --> 02:11:36,504
Which is a big...

1339
02:11:36,504 --> 02:11:37,521
It's a sad day for everyone.

1340
02:11:38,701 --> 02:11:40,921
only... the only honest...

1341
02:11:40,921 --> 02:11:44,101
the only... the only high IQ, high alpha...

1342
02:11:44,101 --> 02:11:44,701
no, just kidding.

1343
02:11:44,921 --> 02:11:47,301
But he has a great YouTube...

1344
02:11:47,301 --> 02:11:51,441
go on YouTube and look up FiatJofenConstant, they have a great show.

1345
02:11:52,161 --> 02:11:53,041
It's really good.

1346
02:11:53,241 --> 02:11:56,321
I was on it once to talk about Drivechain, they did the Drivechain episode.

1347
02:11:57,281 --> 02:11:57,459
But

1348
02:12:02,219 --> 02:12:06,499
We have a new speaker also, Isaiah, welcome.

1349
02:12:07,019 --> 02:12:10,499
Before you go ahead, just want to mention to the audience, we meet every Friday here on

1350
02:12:10,499 --> 02:12:13,459
Twitter Spaces at 1pm Eastern.

1351
02:12:13,459 --> 02:12:17,397
and anyone who's interested can learn more

1352
02:12:17,417 --> 02:12:22,877
about Drivechain at LayerTwoLabs.com and also Drivechain

1353
02:12:22,877 --> 02:12:23,597
.info,

1354
02:12:25,017 --> 02:12:30,997
where you can download software, participate in the testnet, read analysis, and

1355
02:12:30,997 --> 02:12:32,897
talk about it in our Telegram group.

1356
02:12:34,197 --> 02:12:35,197
Everyone's free to join.

1357
02:12:35,277 --> 02:12:37,334
We have over 700 members in a Telegram

1358
02:12:37,434 --> 02:12:38,034
group.

1359
02:12:40,194 --> 02:12:42,354
Bitcoin, Isaiah, what is your comment or question?

1360
02:12:42,514 --> 02:12:43,034
Thanks for joining.

1361
02:12:44,054 --> 02:12:45,974
thank you for inviting me to the stage.

1362
02:12:46,934 --> 02:12:49,754
Yes, I have a very open mind when it comes to this stuff.

1363
02:12:50,794 --> 02:12:54,254
I haven't, you know, done a lot of research on drivechains.

1364
02:12:57,392 --> 02:12:59,072
it comes to mining,

1365
02:13:00,512 --> 02:13:05,412
miners, let's say the soft work goes through and everything, would miners be in charge

1366
02:13:05,412 --> 02:13:11,352
of choosing what sidechains they're including in what you're calling a merge

1367
02:13:11,352 --> 02:13:16,772
mine block? Are they selecting, let's say there's 100 Drivechains, do they get to

1368
02:13:16,772 --> 02:13:17,209
choose

1369
02:13:17,429 --> 02:13:21,309
which ones to mine or are they all gonna be mined at once?

1370
02:13:21,389 --> 02:13:23,549
Or I don't know how that will really work.

1371
02:13:25,409 --> 02:13:27,229
Yes, they get to choose.

1372
02:13:28,069 --> 02:13:33,849
With blind merge mining, they're kind of choosing to include a high fee

1373
02:13:33,849 --> 02:13:35,449
paying transaction on L1.

1374
02:13:35,709 --> 02:13:37,147
So that's not really like a big

1375
02:13:37,147 --> 02:13:42,707
The But I think it's quite likely that the mining pools will just run the software of

1376
02:13:42,707 --> 02:13:46,227
all the sidechains to, or at least most of them, to look into.

1377
02:13:46,987 --> 02:13:49,707
I don't think there will really be 100, but there may be.

1378
02:13:50,447 --> 02:13:52,627
That would be kind of cool if there was.

1379
02:13:53,107 --> 02:13:55,947
Because the sidechains kind of rely on popularity.

1380
02:13:56,847 --> 02:13:57,047
And

1381
02:13:57,084 --> 02:14:00,864
there's just not that many novel ideas, but then this is cue the part in the future

1382
02:14:00,864 --> 02:14:06,344
where they play this audio clip, and then next to the future where there's 200

1383
02:14:06,344 --> 02:14:12,024
sidechains. yeah, the answer is yes, they would pick, and in fact, that's

1384
02:14:12,024 --> 02:14:17,022
unavoidable, they actually pick everything, because the miners, whether they

1385
02:14:17,022 --> 02:14:22,362
want this power or not, choose whether or the lightning channel is open or whether or

1386
02:14:22,362 --> 02:14:23,762
not the liquid peg out comes back.

1387
02:14:23,842 --> 02:14:26,762
They can block any message they want from the blockchain.

1388
02:14:27,002 --> 02:14:29,162
can move it, at least delay it to the next block.

1389
02:14:30,262 --> 02:14:34,582
in every given block, have total control over the block they make, even though they

1390
02:14:34,582 --> 02:14:36,602
don't know if they will win the block or not.

1391
02:14:37,300 --> 02:14:38,020
that answer your question?

1392
02:14:38,940 --> 02:14:39,700
Yeah yeah definitely.

1393
02:14:40,320 --> 02:14:46,200
So like let's say someone who's anti BIP300 and they're also

1394
02:14:46,200 --> 02:14:50,800
mining basically if you're anti this you don't have to mine these other blocks but you

1395
02:14:50,800 --> 02:14:54,180
would just be losing you just be getting less money basically because you're not

1396
02:14:54,180 --> 02:14:56,897
getting the money from the sidechains but you can still just

1397
02:14:57,017 --> 02:15:00,197
mine Bitcoin regularly without worrying about any of that.

1398
02:15:01,317 --> 02:15:02,297
Yeah, that's right.

1399
02:15:02,517 --> 02:15:07,597
It's very similar to if they just refused to include a transaction in a block because

1400
02:15:07,597 --> 02:15:08,797
they didn't like it.

1401
02:15:09,117 --> 02:15:14,717
It's really just that, like times a big number, you know, times the whole sidechains

1402
02:15:14,717 --> 02:15:16,697
block. You just say, I censor

1403
02:15:16,835 --> 02:15:17,995
all those messages.

1404
02:15:18,955 --> 02:15:22,735
It's slightly different because they, if they want to know anything about what those

1405
02:15:22,735 --> 02:15:24,715
messages are, they have to run the sidechain software.

1406
02:15:24,775 --> 02:15:26,095
But they don't actually need to know that.

1407
02:15:26,715 --> 02:15:32,095
There's no reason with blind merge mining especially, which I can get into why blind

1408
02:15:32,095 --> 02:15:36,772
merge mining is sort of inevitable is

1409
02:15:37,032 --> 02:15:42,412
blind merge mining is not as much an act of like creativity on my part necessarily.

1410
02:15:42,752 --> 02:15:46,992
It is like the inevitable equilibrium of merge mining anyway.

1411
02:15:47,992 --> 02:15:52,332
Blind merge mining just makes it sort of official and it stops people from scamming

1412
02:15:52,332 --> 02:15:56,692
each other. So it's actually great and it costs like a couple bytes, like

1413
02:15:56,710 --> 02:15:59,450
100 L1 bytes or so.

1414
02:15:59,450 --> 02:16:04,730
Got it. and what I really like about this also, like so far at least from what I'm

1415
02:16:04,730 --> 02:16:10,730
hearing, is it does sound like this is a little bit of middle ground because for people

1416
02:16:10,730 --> 02:16:16,270
who just want to regular L1 Bitcoin just for their savings,

1417
02:16:16,647 --> 02:16:20,667
when it comes to all this other stuff they don't really have to worry about these other

1418
02:16:20,667 --> 02:16:26,587
chains because Bitcoin itself it doesn't really change much you know it's

1419
02:16:26,587 --> 02:16:32,387
like all these other sidechains right all right yeah you have it exactly

1420
02:16:32,387 --> 02:16:36,585
the bib 300 rules uh which are

1421
02:16:36,605 --> 02:16:38,805
also optional via the soft fork.

1422
02:16:39,265 --> 02:16:44,945
if you want to run a fully validating L1, Luke Deskinier, fully approved, you

1423
02:16:44,945 --> 02:16:47,725
are always running the latest version in his paradigm.

1424
02:16:49,045 --> 02:16:53,825
And I don't know, I actually really like Luke a lot, but I don't agree with this part.

1425
02:16:53,985 --> 02:16:56,425
think it's not fully logically consistent, although

1426
02:16:56,522 --> 02:17:01,122
he has some very creative answers if you have a dialogue with him.

1427
02:17:01,162 --> 02:17:01,962
He's a fascinating guy.

1428
02:17:02,802 --> 02:17:08,322
even if you enforce the BIP300 rules, the BIP300 rules are only about

1429
02:17:08,322 --> 02:17:13,422
the deposits and withdrawals following a certain format, basically.

1430
02:17:14,922 --> 02:17:16,460
So this is a mistake, is actually

1431
02:17:16,580 --> 02:17:21,100
have, for some reason this is much harder for people to keep straight in their minds

1432
02:17:21,100 --> 02:17:25,320
than I would have thought, but if you have a piece of pen and a piece of paper, or if

1433
02:17:25,320 --> 02:17:29,080
you actually write the BIP300 code, which obviously,

1434
02:17:30,320 --> 02:17:34,780
if you understand the technical details, can't not know this.

1435
02:17:35,780 --> 02:17:36,360
But

1436
02:17:36,398 --> 02:17:41,218
there's running the sidechain and processing every sidechain message in every block.

1437
02:17:41,738 --> 02:17:42,998
That's one level.

1438
02:17:43,798 --> 02:17:48,638
then there's only enforcing the L1 BIP300 rules, which are like this counter that

1439
02:17:48,638 --> 02:17:54,018
counts up to 13,000, keeping track of the 256 slots and how much Bitcoin is in them.

1440
02:17:54,198 --> 02:17:56,335
These tiny, tiny things that

1441
02:17:56,595 --> 02:17:59,775
are very small compared to what Bitcoin is already doing.

1442
02:18:00,055 --> 02:18:02,195
The full node is already tracking every block.

1443
02:18:02,835 --> 02:18:04,115
It indexes all the blocks.

1444
02:18:05,555 --> 02:18:10,455
It manages the UTXO set, is like enormous, you know, 7, 8, 9 gigabytes.

1445
02:18:11,255 --> 02:18:16,195
The block stores the L1 blockchain which is like 600 gigabytes

1446
02:18:18,133 --> 02:18:19,233
So you're doing all that.

1447
02:18:20,173 --> 02:18:26,133
This is a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny thing that is comparable to previous softwarks like

1448
02:18:26,133 --> 02:18:27,353
Check Lock Time Verify or whatever.

1449
02:18:27,493 --> 02:18:30,633
It's not like, you know, it's really not doing that much more.

1450
02:18:31,013 --> 02:18:34,473
But even doing that is technically optional because it is a softwerk.

1451
02:18:34,673 --> 02:18:36,210
You could just stay on an old version that doesn't

1452
02:18:39,870 --> 02:18:45,590
BIP300 rules, BIP300

1453
02:18:45,590 --> 02:18:50,570
rules, BIP300 rules, rules, rules, rules, rules, BIP300 BIP300 BIP300 rules, rules,

1454
02:18:51,170 --> 02:18:53,610
BIP300 BIP300 BIP300 rules,

1455
02:18:55,050 --> 02:18:56,148
BIP300

1456
02:18:56,148 --> 02:19:02,028
a blockchain that has a block with those rules violated so the whole thing is really

1457
02:19:02,028 --> 02:19:07,748
optional and yeah the middle ground is that is the whole point and as hopefully you're

1458
02:19:07,748 --> 02:19:13,568
getting a small picture of not everyone likes the middle ground actually because there

1459
02:19:13,568 --> 02:19:16,008
are people who want to only get their own way

1460
02:19:16,085 --> 02:19:20,785
and they don't like the other person getting their way at all even though this gives

1461
02:19:20,785 --> 02:19:26,765
everyone you know like 99.999999 % that it's just some people view it

1462
02:19:26,765 --> 02:19:32,545
as in terms of purity and contamination the L1 small blocker

1463
02:19:32,545 --> 02:19:36,023
people really get what they want because the whole BIP300 partisan

1464
02:19:36,023 --> 02:19:39,743
an optional softwerk and they really yield nothing.

1465
02:19:40,863 --> 02:19:45,943
It's the large block of people that get only 98 % of what they want or whatever.

1466
02:19:46,603 --> 02:19:52,223
still people complain and there's a whole military industrial complex type of people

1467
02:19:52,223 --> 02:19:53,623
who are like the enforcers,

1468
02:19:55,960 --> 02:20:00,740
The cultural enforcers, they will sort of be almost put out of a job by this, is sort

1469
02:20:00,740 --> 02:20:02,980
of partly how I think about it now.

1470
02:20:03,160 --> 02:20:08,100
think some of these people, they just really like being toxic, and the toxicity will be

1471
02:20:08,100 --> 02:20:10,160
replaced with cooperation and creativity.

1472
02:20:10,880 --> 02:20:13,600
And I think that some people don't particularly like that.

1473
02:20:14,240 --> 02:20:15,860
But yes, I think you have a very

1474
02:20:27,768 --> 02:20:33,548
were arguing against people on Twitter, people that

1475
02:20:33,548 --> 02:20:39,008
have said that the security budget is a fallacy.

1476
02:20:40,388 --> 02:20:41,068
I don't understand.

1477
02:20:42,388 --> 02:20:46,308
I just want to ask if you know someone knows what, because

1478
02:20:46,353 --> 02:20:47,893
they don't answer me when I ask why.

1479
02:20:48,253 --> 02:20:50,853
I'm very confused about that.

1480
02:20:50,953 --> 02:20:52,253
What I do is I thing.

1481
02:20:52,993 --> 02:20:56,373
And I don't know what to say to those people.

1482
02:20:56,653 --> 02:21:01,313
think they have a different, I think the definition is like, I think the definition

1483
02:21:01,313 --> 02:21:04,793
mutates. So to me, the security budget is a very,

1484
02:21:04,978 --> 02:21:06,198
very, very simple thing.

1485
02:21:06,318 --> 02:21:08,678
It is the total amount of money that we pay to miners.

1486
02:21:10,098 --> 02:21:13,318
everyone says that surely everyone agrees that that exists.

1487
02:21:14,638 --> 02:21:16,638
It's just not that people don't about

1488
02:21:18,118 --> 02:21:23,603
Because the ASICs are going to be low in price and then we can have less miners

1489
02:21:23,703 --> 02:21:26,063
mining, so the security budget is a fellas.

1490
02:21:26,923 --> 02:21:32,683
if it was just this guy, I guess I could say he's crazy or something, but there are

1491
02:21:32,683 --> 02:21:34,863
many people that say the security budget is a fellas.

1492
02:21:35,043 --> 02:21:39,343
I think they may be taking that from somewhere, repeating some argument they didn't

1493
02:21:39,343 --> 02:21:40,483
understand or something.

1494
02:21:42,228 --> 02:21:43,488
but you don't know.

1495
02:21:43,488 --> 02:21:45,668
I I kind of have experience with that as well.

1496
02:21:45,788 --> 02:21:51,488
mean, I don't know if I, what side I really land on this entirely, but obviously

1497
02:21:51,488 --> 02:21:55,608
there's some people that think security comes from nodes and not miners.

1498
02:21:56,648 --> 02:22:00,853
they think, you know, miners are just in charge of constructing the blocks, whereas

1499
02:22:01,013 --> 02:22:06,113
the actual node runners, and as long as it's distributed across the world, the rules

1500
02:22:06,113 --> 02:22:07,993
don't really change because of that.

1501
02:22:08,153 --> 02:22:09,433
That's kind of their argument.

1502
02:22:12,333 --> 02:22:15,233
Yeah, but the problem with that is that as we've known from the very first day of

1503
02:22:15,233 --> 02:22:19,478
Bitcoin, if a majority of the hashrate is controlled

1504
02:22:19,698 --> 02:22:24,978
by parties that are collaborating to attack the network,

1505
02:22:26,058 --> 02:22:31,858
reorging at every opportunity, if they reorg at every opportunity and they

1506
02:22:31,858 --> 02:22:37,858
have a compelling majority of the hashrate under their control, then

1507
02:22:37,858 --> 02:22:38,103
they can

1508
02:22:38,183 --> 02:22:43,603
effectively block the transactions of every other user in

1509
02:22:43,603 --> 02:22:48,203
perpetuity. that's the security budget problem.

1510
02:22:48,363 --> 02:22:52,283
think there's two, nodes, the security comes from nodes, right?

1511
02:22:53,623 --> 02:22:55,663
I agree, I just want to...

1512
02:22:56,143 --> 02:22:56,603
can go

1513
02:22:56,728 --> 02:23:02,588
What can I try to get Another question I have or comment that

1514
02:23:02,588 --> 02:23:08,188
I've seen some people insisting on the point that miners stealing

1515
02:23:08,188 --> 02:23:12,668
from lighting channels is different from miners stealing from a drivechain.

1516
02:23:13,988 --> 02:23:15,428
And I think they have a point.

1517
02:23:15,588 --> 02:23:21,388
It's not the exact same phenomena, although the miners can do very bad

1518
02:23:21,388 --> 02:23:26,668
things if they have control over the vast majority of their hash rate.

1519
02:23:27,048 --> 02:23:29,628
But I think it's a different kind of...

1520
02:23:33,628 --> 02:23:34,888
Oh no, I lost him.

1521
02:23:34,948 --> 02:23:35,568
He's just connecting.

1522
02:23:36,248 --> 02:23:37,128
I lost him too.

1523
02:23:37,648 --> 02:23:41,408
this app has unfortunately been very buggy lately, but I'm sure it be bad.

1524
02:23:41,988 --> 02:23:45,708
We're very lucky to have Fiatjaf here in case anyone's not aware in the audience.

1525
02:23:45,988 --> 02:23:49,828
Joff is the creator of He doubled, yeah, created of Noster.

1526
02:23:50,308 --> 02:23:50,808
Well, sort of.

1527
02:23:52,039 --> 02:23:55,439
That's kind of overgeneralizing a little bit, more or less, yeah.

1528
02:23:56,439 --> 02:24:01,099
When Jack Dorsey wanted to give millions of dollars to Noster, he gave it to...

1529
02:24:01,099 --> 02:24:01,999
He may have given it.

1530
02:24:02,519 --> 02:24:04,139
I've doxxed him now.

1531
02:24:05,539 --> 02:24:07,319
Yeah, John may have some Noster funding.

1532
02:24:07,719 --> 02:24:10,899
It's publicly available information, but maybe he doesn't want me talking about it.

1533
02:24:10,951 --> 02:24:11,291
it.

1534
02:24:13,071 --> 02:24:14,751
He has crashed and now he's back.

1535
02:24:15,611 --> 02:24:16,531
So we'll have him back up.

1536
02:24:16,671 --> 02:24:22,511
first, I want to get into what he, the nodes versus miners

1537
02:24:22,511 --> 02:24:26,471
security thing. Those are two different flavors of security completely.

1538
02:24:28,231 --> 02:24:30,062
The nodes fully

1539
02:24:30,502 --> 02:24:32,302
validate each block in the blockchain,

1540
02:24:34,962 --> 02:24:37,282
but the nodes do nothing to advance the blockchain.

1541
02:24:37,582 --> 02:24:38,882
do nothing to solve double spending.

1542
02:24:40,822 --> 02:24:45,102
Absolutely nothing to solve double spending, is a completely different problem, and

1543
02:24:45,102 --> 02:24:46,562
that is solved by the mining process.

1544
02:24:47,422 --> 02:24:48,942
It's not really solved by the miners.

1545
02:24:49,333 --> 02:24:50,593
it's solved by the mining process.

1546
02:24:50,873 --> 02:24:53,273
Satoshi invented this process, has no identities.

1547
02:24:53,953 --> 02:24:56,653
Anyone can join or leave the mining team at any time.

1548
02:24:57,493 --> 02:24:59,753
We have no way knowing who has joined or left, in fact.

1549
02:25:00,733 --> 02:25:02,233
That's how possible it is.

1550
02:25:03,413 --> 02:25:08,173
the decentralized peer -to -peer mining process, anyone could find a block,

1551
02:25:14,464 --> 02:25:17,664
We want the full node cost to be low.

1552
02:25:18,724 --> 02:25:22,144
That is what the person was referring to when they say security comes from nodes.

1553
02:25:22,884 --> 02:25:26,684
block size dispute was about people disagreeing on how low that number should be.

1554
02:25:26,864 --> 02:25:27,395
Some wanted it

1555
02:25:27,435 --> 02:25:30,575
low, and some wanted it low, but kind of also high.

1556
02:25:31,875 --> 02:25:37,055
So that's why Drivechain solves that problem, because it lets you run whatever node you

1557
02:25:37,055 --> 02:25:38,235
want. Ophia, Java is back.

1558
02:25:39,115 --> 02:25:40,775
Yes, app is crashing sometimes.

1559
02:25:41,235 --> 02:25:42,635
It crashed for me like five seconds ago.

1560
02:25:42,675 --> 02:25:44,475
Yeah, this thing is completely broken.

1561
02:25:45,595 --> 02:25:45,795
Yeah,

1562
02:25:46,846 --> 02:25:51,246
I kind of asked the question here, but I guess I was offline, so no one here heard me.

1563
02:25:51,666 --> 02:25:55,106
was... different cans, can steal.

1564
02:25:55,326 --> 02:26:00,306
This important word, can, which is screwing up the conversation, I think.

1565
02:26:00,986 --> 02:26:05,446
Yeah, was just saying there is categorical difference

1566
02:26:05,617 --> 02:26:07,177
between the actions of the miners.

1567
02:26:07,557 --> 02:26:13,477
if you have a cabal of evil miners, of course they can do many bad things,

1568
02:26:13,537 --> 02:26:17,257
but these things, they are in different categories.

1569
02:26:17,457 --> 02:26:21,697
I think we should recognize that maybe, or maybe I'm completely wrong here.

1570
02:26:23,117 --> 02:26:24,697
And would you say

1571
02:26:29,062 --> 02:26:30,182
you guys are making?

1572
02:26:31,482 --> 02:26:35,642
No, I think the miner centralization thing if I could get my way I would just

1573
02:26:35,642 --> 02:26:41,402
obliterate that that phrase because the centralization is the cost of the layer one

1574
02:26:41,402 --> 02:26:46,982
full node That is the only useful definition of centralization If it's impossible to

1575
02:26:46,982 --> 02:26:47,602
run a layer one

1576
02:26:48,848 --> 02:26:53,448
priced out, you're on the outside looking in, and you can never figure out what's going

1577
02:26:53,448 --> 02:26:57,448
on. And that's like what Bank of America is, or Visa or something.

1578
02:26:58,808 --> 02:27:04,728
But as that cost falls from infinity towards cheap, now you are a participant, you're a

1579
02:27:04,728 --> 02:27:05,668
peer on the network,

1580
02:27:06,528 --> 02:27:11,408
you see everything that's happening on the network, and you also can single -handedly

1581
02:27:11,408 --> 02:27:14,588
regenerate the network if other people bring the other nodes down.

1582
02:27:15,668 --> 02:27:19,348
when you show people the network, they know that you are not cheating them because the

1583
02:27:19,348 --> 02:27:20,528
proof of work.

1584
02:27:21,928 --> 02:27:24,328
That is the thing that shows

1585
02:27:24,328 --> 02:27:26,848
everyone else that you did not arbitrarily rewrite the chain.

1586
02:27:27,068 --> 02:27:31,528
that one version of is the longest chain available.

1587
02:27:31,768 --> 02:27:34,328
And that is the canonical history.

1588
02:27:36,208 --> 02:27:39,388
If the total amount of money paid to miners is small,

1589
02:27:40,828 --> 02:27:42,008
then all it means is that

1590
02:27:47,188 --> 02:27:53,168
The security budget is the quantitative, numerical measurement

1591
02:27:53,168 --> 02:27:55,288
of how much proof of work we have.

1592
02:27:55,648 --> 02:27:58,428
It is actually measured not in hashes, but in dollars.

1593
02:27:58,888 --> 02:27:59,848
hashes is a confounding

1594
02:27:59,928 --> 02:28:03,828
variable. It's confounded by the fact that ASIC technology improves.

1595
02:28:06,148 --> 02:28:09,328
if you believe in proof of work, you believe in security budget.

1596
02:28:09,728 --> 02:28:12,948
So I think there must be some kind of miscommunication because I agree with Fiatjaf

1597
02:28:12,948 --> 02:28:16,168
that plenty of people just say that this concept isn't real.

1598
02:28:17,228 --> 02:28:17,728
They say they

1599
02:28:17,728 --> 02:28:21,788
believe this security budget isn't real, but they clearly believe in proof of work.

1600
02:28:22,248 --> 02:28:24,628
So there must just be some problem of language.

1601
02:28:25,568 --> 02:28:30,828
I don't know, do believe that there's a hash rate, a hash rate, and you increase the

1602
02:28:30,828 --> 02:28:33,608
hash rate by making more more ASICS.

1603
02:28:33,988 --> 02:28:36,448
And that somehow makes some sense for them.

1604
02:28:36,568 --> 02:28:39,688
I think that's probably where the argument is.

1605
02:28:40,708 --> 02:28:46,568
But they don't realize that the actual costs in things like in dollars or

1606
02:28:46,568 --> 02:28:49,008
valuable things is what matters.

1607
02:28:51,488 --> 02:28:52,948
I think it's just a mistake.

1608
02:28:53,188 --> 02:28:53,708
think it's just hard.

1609
02:28:53,728 --> 02:28:57,788
hard, like, it's just weird, like, a lot of, there's so many units that change.

1610
02:28:58,048 --> 02:28:58,808
think that's also it.

1611
02:28:58,888 --> 02:29:03,008
Like, I think one thing is that if people are averse to pricing it in dollars,

1612
02:29:03,168 --> 02:29:07,828
purchasing power dollars, because they think we hate dollars, we love Bitcoin, hate

1613
02:29:07,828 --> 02:29:12,268
fiat. But the reason that it's priced in dollars is the same reason that we're speaking

1614
02:29:12,268 --> 02:29:12,828
English,

1615
02:29:19,975 --> 02:29:24,115
It's the same amount of persuasive force.

1616
02:29:25,135 --> 02:29:29,395
could be, you could describe it as $20 or whatever, Bitcoin or whatever, yen.

1617
02:29:30,215 --> 02:29:33,055
It's that amount of force that

1618
02:29:33,062 --> 02:29:33,662
is...

1619
02:29:35,542 --> 02:29:38,802
You put that in dollars just because the same reason why we're speaking in English,

1620
02:29:38,942 --> 02:29:39,982
because people understand that.

1621
02:29:41,062 --> 02:29:44,922
But it literally makes no difference if it's in dollars or Bitcoin or in hashes.

1622
02:29:45,122 --> 02:29:45,962
Makes no difference.

1623
02:29:47,142 --> 02:29:52,562
the critics on Twitter, the Drivechain critics,

1624
02:29:52,728 --> 02:29:54,048
some of them right.

1625
02:29:54,068 --> 02:29:59,588
If Bitcoin doesn't have enough transaction fee revenue in the future to

1626
02:29:59,588 --> 02:30:04,728
adequately secure the chain, then Bitcoin has simply failed

1627
02:30:04,728 --> 02:30:07,548
and that's all there is to say about this matter.

1628
02:30:08,148 --> 02:30:13,968
They don't want to entertain, it seems, the possibility that an

1629
02:30:13,968 --> 02:30:18,208
upgrade that would encourage merged mining would strengthen Bitcoin.

1630
02:30:18,208 --> 02:30:23,408
They prefer to say, well, if the design as it is today without any encouragement of

1631
02:30:23,408 --> 02:30:28,708
merge mining through drivechain activation, if that design isn't going to suffice...

1632
02:30:28,728 --> 02:30:29,928
for economic security,

1633
02:30:31,228 --> 02:30:32,708
Bitcoin has failed.

1634
02:30:33,028 --> 02:30:35,728
say that. What is your response to that line of thinking?

1635
02:30:37,608 --> 02:30:42,588
Well, it's basically exactly the same as something like where if you live in a world

1636
02:30:42,588 --> 02:30:48,388
where Bitcoin is succeeding and then the miners decide to censor all of the merge mind

1637
02:30:48,481 --> 02:30:54,341
transactions. decide we are going to censor all these transactions for no real

1638
02:30:54,341 --> 02:30:58,161
reason. They pay a fee, but they all just agree to do that, and then they have no

1639
02:30:58,161 --> 02:31:03,041
money. They have a greatly reduced income, so they have to scale back their operations

1640
02:31:03,041 --> 02:31:06,621
because this is the logic of the security budget for those of who don't know.

1641
02:31:07,301 --> 02:31:08,221
We'll go through it kind

1642
02:31:08,233 --> 02:31:10,133
is

1643
02:31:10,133 --> 02:31:14,313
a

1644
02:31:14,313 --> 02:31:19,353
small amount of money paid to

1645
02:31:20,173 --> 02:31:21,993
put it in dollars to make it easier to understand.

1646
02:31:22,333 --> 02:31:23,653
it literally makes no difference.

1647
02:31:23,833 --> 02:31:26,733
It's the same thing if it's in dollars or hashes or Bitcoin.

1648
02:31:27,033 --> 02:31:27,833
it's the same amount.

1649
02:31:28,025 --> 02:31:29,785
just multiplying and dividing by the same number.

1650
02:31:29,925 --> 02:31:33,105
It's literally like switching the conversation to Spanish and then back.

1651
02:31:34,565 --> 02:31:38,065
So the security budget is the total amount of money paid to miners

1652
02:31:39,385 --> 02:31:45,285
the total amount of money spent by the miners on hashing on proof of work

1653
02:31:45,285 --> 02:31:47,738
That number must, in equilibrium,

1654
02:31:49,958 --> 02:31:54,298
The total amount of on of

1655
02:31:54,298 --> 02:32:04,758
work

1656
02:32:04,758 --> 02:32:07,358
is the total amount of money miners receive,

1657
02:32:08,010 --> 02:32:12,610
That's the total amount of the miners spend on all their costs, themselves included.

1658
02:32:14,050 --> 02:32:16,150
And that is the total amount of cost.

1659
02:32:16,670 --> 02:32:22,370
That is how much it would cost either to rent 100 % of the

1660
02:32:22,370 --> 02:32:27,243
Bitcoin miners in perpetuity, or to build a parallel mining

1661
02:32:27,803 --> 02:32:30,243
industry that is the exact same size.

1662
02:32:31,543 --> 02:32:33,403
They're all just the same, it's just the same number.

1663
02:32:34,803 --> 02:32:38,603
Some of these numbers are per time and others are not, whatever, however you do it,

1664
02:32:38,603 --> 02:32:39,943
it's all completely equivalent.

1665
02:32:41,243 --> 02:32:43,503
So this is just the security budget idea.

1666
02:32:44,563 --> 02:32:46,995
And all of that to me seems not only self -evident

1667
02:32:46,995 --> 02:32:51,355
-evident but incontrovertible, but I think it is definitely mind bending for some

1668
02:32:51,355 --> 02:32:51,995
people.

1669
02:32:53,395 --> 02:32:54,735
this is pretty straightforward.

1670
02:32:55,595 --> 02:33:00,975
what it would be like is, to answer your question, does the miners decide to censor all

1671
02:33:00,975 --> 02:33:01,975
the merge mining revenues?

1672
02:33:02,295 --> 02:33:04,935
Now the total amount of going to them has plummeted.

1673
02:33:06,395 --> 02:33:06,747
know, it's

1674
02:33:06,767 --> 02:33:12,707
not necessarily but possibly the merge mine revenues will be a thousand times or

1675
02:33:12,707 --> 02:33:17,747
even ten thousand times higher than the total L1 revenues

1676
02:33:17,747 --> 02:33:23,687
especially once more havings kick in so they're so this means the mind the whole

1677
02:33:23,687 --> 02:33:26,247
mining industry will shrink by a thousand X or whatever

1678
02:33:26,840 --> 02:33:31,860
And then it will be 1000X cheaper for any adversary to just troll the blockchain by

1679
02:33:31,860 --> 02:33:35,580
rewriting it, at which point we either have to abandon proof of work and find some

1680
02:33:35,580 --> 02:33:40,360
other way of figuring out which chain is active, which is the longest, heaviest chain.

1681
02:33:41,420 --> 02:33:42,480
We abandon proof of work.

1682
02:33:42,480 --> 02:33:46,040
or if, you know, or we just

1683
02:33:46,252 --> 02:33:51,752
admit that the double spend problem is not solved by Bitcoin and that Bitcoin has

1684
02:33:51,752 --> 02:33:52,852
failed in that way.

1685
02:33:53,272 --> 02:33:56,692
And the network just kneels down and dies.

1686
02:33:57,952 --> 02:34:01,472
So that's the story, that they just minus decided to just kill themselves by just

1687
02:34:01,472 --> 02:34:03,752
censoring. But they have no incentive to do that.

1688
02:34:03,952 --> 02:34:06,005
fact, their incentive is actually just to

1689
02:34:06,005 --> 02:34:11,285
ignore fake Twitter drama that isn't real,

1690
02:34:12,685 --> 02:34:15,825
collect all merge mining revenues they can, then maximize those.

1691
02:34:16,205 --> 02:34:17,025
that is what they will do.

1692
02:34:17,225 --> 02:34:22,905
it's really kind of Satoshi's design, which Satoshi himself was the inventor or co

1693
02:34:22,905 --> 02:34:23,925
-inventor of merge mining.

1694
02:34:24,625 --> 02:34:25,705
he clearly understood

1695
02:34:25,757 --> 02:34:27,077
all of this.

1696
02:34:27,377 --> 02:34:31,737
Satoshi's design, what's really happening is Satoshi's design is so good that it will

1697
02:34:31,737 --> 02:34:34,997
survive mistaken people on Twitter.

1698
02:34:35,337 --> 02:34:41,237
And even the paralysis of the toxic maxi culture will not

1699
02:34:41,237 --> 02:34:43,917
be enough to bring down Satoshi's idea.

1700
02:34:44,257 --> 02:34:45,457
It's just that he just,

1701
02:34:46,369 --> 02:34:51,189
idea is just that good of just transaction fees being

1702
02:34:51,189 --> 02:34:56,769
miner revenue. So that's how I see it.

1703
02:34:57,549 --> 02:35:03,549
While I agree about the Drivechains potentially adding lots of

1704
02:35:03,549 --> 02:35:04,369
revenue for miners,

1705
02:35:05,762 --> 02:35:10,142
At the same time, I do see fees increasing on Bitcoin L1.

1706
02:35:10,742 --> 02:35:16,242
I know you mentioned you think they'll stay 75 cents or something, which that part I

1707
02:35:16,242 --> 02:35:16,862
don't agree with.

1708
02:35:16,942 --> 02:35:22,502
I do think long term if Bitcoin is successful, you will see fees continue to rise and

1709
02:35:22,502 --> 02:35:24,782
we see them, you know, average into the

1710
02:35:25,014 --> 02:35:27,834
$50, $100 range in today's value.

1711
02:35:28,334 --> 02:35:32,054
And I know Michael Saylor, even though I definitely don't agree with this, he's out

1712
02:35:32,054 --> 02:35:36,514
there saying there will be like $100,000 fees, which is just completely absurd.

1713
02:35:36,954 --> 02:35:40,394
But I do think they will rise overall.

1714
02:35:41,374 --> 02:35:44,674
because people will pay a to have their savings on

1715
02:35:44,767 --> 02:35:47,827
Bitcoin L1 relative to these sidechains.

1716
02:35:48,427 --> 02:35:52,187
I think that'll always be true because Bitcoin is the most secure.

1717
02:35:52,327 --> 02:35:56,027
It will always be that way and people will be willing to pay a premium.

1718
02:35:56,387 --> 02:36:01,087
But you're right that Drivechains might add a lot more fee revenue overall.

1719
02:36:02,387 --> 02:36:03,967
I actually completely agree with you.

1720
02:36:04,027 --> 02:36:04,519
was being maybe a

1721
02:36:04,559 --> 02:36:08,479
little hyperbolic, I could, it depends on the time frame or whatever, but I could see

1722
02:36:08,479 --> 02:36:14,299
the fees going up, I don't see them going up to $50, $100, like 24 -7, $365.

1723
02:36:15,179 --> 02:36:20,839
I don't see that happening, but I do think that the L1 fee rate will be higher than the

1724
02:36:20,839 --> 02:36:21,499
sidechain fee rate.

1725
02:36:21,639 --> 02:36:24,271
The sidechain fee rate will probably always be around like something

1726
02:36:24,271 --> 02:36:27,851
something really low, 10 cents for 200 bytes or something.

1727
02:36:29,411 --> 02:36:35,111
The L1 fee I think could be like, they could be like $5, $6, $7 maybe

1728
02:36:35,111 --> 02:36:39,091
in a world where Bitcoin is really, really, really, really adopted everywhere around

1729
02:36:39,091 --> 02:36:43,231
the globe. I mean, I just think it's going to be kind of difficult because even the L1

1730
02:36:43,231 --> 02:36:44,024
block space as it

1731
02:36:44,024 --> 02:36:48,524
is is like 2500 transactions per 10 minutes, blocks per week.

1732
02:36:49,624 --> 02:36:52,064
that's actually a lot of fun.

1733
02:36:53,244 --> 02:36:54,604
Clarify. Can you clarify?

1734
02:36:54,804 --> 02:36:59,184
seemed that as I was saying that he thinks fees will rise, whether or not Drivechain is

1735
02:36:59,184 --> 02:37:03,776
activated. Paul, do you believe fees will rise for Bitcoin if Drivechain is not

1736
02:37:03,776 --> 02:37:08,436
activated? If merged mining is not embraced, do you think fees will rise on layer one

1737
02:37:08,436 --> 02:37:11,576
Bitcoin? Well, actually, in that case, I actually think the answer is no, because I

1738
02:37:11,576 --> 02:37:16,076
think part of what keeps them down now, this is a little bit of a nuanced nonlinear

1739
02:37:16,076 --> 02:37:21,496
sort of point, but part of what keeps them now is that everyone, I think, is still in a

1740
02:37:21,496 --> 02:37:23,296
kind of wait and see mode.

1741
02:37:23,789 --> 02:37:27,129
They're trying to say, this Bitcoin thing going to pan out?

1742
02:37:28,269 --> 02:37:32,069
I think in the sidechain merged mining world, see that obviously it like when it has

1743
02:37:32,069 --> 02:37:35,069
already taken over, then that question isn't in anyone's head anymore.

1744
02:37:35,329 --> 02:37:38,329
So they just think, well, Bitcoin is that's what we've got on planet earth.

1745
02:37:38,629 --> 02:37:39,449
That's what we use.

1746
02:37:40,329 --> 02:37:43,149
in that case, there's no one really fighting

1747
02:37:43,281 --> 02:37:45,021
the $4 $5 fee.

1748
02:37:45,801 --> 02:37:49,521
They're just saying that's what it is and I do most of my transacting on a cheaper

1749
02:37:49,521 --> 02:37:55,181
chain or I have a custodial solution or have a tab or I have a credit card where

1750
02:37:55,181 --> 02:37:58,501
it's its own system and then I pay the credit card bill with Bitcoin or whatever.

1751
02:37:58,841 --> 02:38:02,841
So people aren't really fighting the $5 fee in that world, but actually I think

1752
02:38:03,033 --> 02:38:12,933
it's

1753
02:38:12,933 --> 02:38:18,493
a bubble and people pay money,

1754
02:38:19,213 --> 02:38:22,733
but then the bubble ends and people get annoyed with paying the fee and

1755
02:38:22,786 --> 02:38:28,446
they cut back their usage of L1 and the fees come they do come back down and even today

1756
02:38:28,446 --> 02:38:33,846
they are whatever they're not a lot of money they are for a transaction that selects

1757
02:38:33,846 --> 02:38:39,666
four or five inputs which would be a much larger than average transaction is still like

1758
02:38:39,666 --> 02:38:42,538
you know six seven

1759
02:38:42,778 --> 02:38:47,358
dollars to get into the next block that's a bigger transaction for a normal one one

1760
02:38:47,358 --> 02:38:52,978
input to output transaction i think that fees are still low

1761
02:38:52,978 --> 02:38:58,658
today or if you adjust for actual inflation like actual us dollars

1762
02:38:58,658 --> 02:39:02,291
printed inflation and you readjust all the bitcoin

1763
02:39:02,351 --> 02:39:07,911
fees that way, you remove all the, like a

1764
02:39:07,911 --> 02:39:11,091
fee that is frivolous, like a fee that is less than five cents.

1765
02:39:12,971 --> 02:39:16,011
You say if a fee was ever less than five cents, then it equals five cents, because

1766
02:39:16,011 --> 02:39:17,511
frankly, no one's counting.

1767
02:39:18,231 --> 02:39:19,671
It's either zero or it's five cents.

1768
02:39:19,811 --> 02:39:21,291
It's either zero or it's something.

1769
02:39:22,543 --> 02:39:28,003
So if you make some simple common sense adjustments, then the fee rate, I think is

1770
02:39:28,003 --> 02:39:33,943
really, has been, it has been like 50 cents per transaction,

1771
02:39:34,063 --> 02:39:37,083
kind of like the whole time, in my humble opinion.

1772
02:39:38,083 --> 02:39:40,103
Yeah. It's under a million dollars a day.

1773
02:39:40,403 --> 02:39:41,795
Last time I checked a couple days

1774
02:39:41,795 --> 02:39:45,415
ago. That's paid to miners.

1775
02:39:45,415 --> 02:39:47,915
$9 a day is course nothing to do with that.

1776
02:39:48,395 --> 02:39:54,235
Paul, what would you say to someone who acknowledges that merged mining would

1777
02:39:54,235 --> 02:39:58,235
increase miner revenue strengthening Bitcoin's network in the future?

1778
02:39:58,875 --> 02:40:01,548
But that person is also concerned

1779
02:40:02,048 --> 02:40:04,068
about so -called miner centralization.

1780
02:40:04,208 --> 02:40:07,948
What would you say to that person who's trying to balance in their assessment of

1781
02:40:07,948 --> 02:40:13,588
Drivechain, trying to balance on the one hand the goal of strengthening the

1782
02:40:13,588 --> 02:40:18,828
network by having more miner revenue and never having to resort to inflation,

1783
02:40:19,408 --> 02:40:21,300
which some Drivechain critics

1784
02:40:24,620 --> 02:40:30,020
The that person is trying to balance on the one hand the goal of expanding Bitcoin and

1785
02:40:30,020 --> 02:40:34,700
strengthening it another on the other hand this concern of so -called miner

1786
02:40:34,700 --> 02:40:35,920
centralization.

1787
02:40:37,140 --> 02:40:41,053
Yes, well as I said the miner centralization phrase is has

1788
02:40:41,333 --> 02:40:46,233
done far more harm than good and it would be better if it had never existed and if

1789
02:40:46,233 --> 02:40:47,533
people would never use it again.

1790
02:40:48,133 --> 02:40:53,533
Because the centralization dimension is how expensive it is to run a full node.

1791
02:40:54,633 --> 02:40:59,073
That is the centralization dimension and the correct dimension for miners is the

1792
02:40:59,073 --> 02:41:00,793
security budget dimension, which is how

1793
02:41:00,805 --> 02:41:03,225
much money are we paying the mining industry as a whole?

1794
02:41:03,445 --> 02:41:04,525
How much proof of work are we getting?

1795
02:41:06,045 --> 02:41:10,745
The bizarre thing is that if you investigate this, you ask people, are they talking

1796
02:41:10,745 --> 02:41:12,465
about when they mean miner centralization?

1797
02:41:12,765 --> 02:41:16,445
What they mean is more fees being paid to miners.

1798
02:41:16,745 --> 02:41:18,865
What they think is a bad thing is actually a good thing.

1799
02:41:18,865 --> 02:41:20,557
security budget going up

1800
02:41:20,897 --> 02:41:24,857
is the complaint.

1801
02:41:25,237 --> 02:41:28,297
It's a very tortured and weird road that these people walk.

1802
02:41:28,597 --> 02:41:34,397
It's very hard to follow what it is they're talking about, I have undertaken this

1803
02:41:34,397 --> 02:41:37,517
arduous task many times.

1804
02:41:37,517 --> 02:41:40,217
And you ask people like, what do you mean by

1805
02:41:40,310 --> 02:41:45,830
mining centralization? what people say is, well, the miners will pay some small

1806
02:41:45,830 --> 02:41:50,550
cost to run the sidechain node or to look into sidechains.

1807
02:41:50,930 --> 02:41:53,270
They'll pay some attention to sidechains.

1808
02:41:53,850 --> 02:41:55,950
And in a result, they'll make tons of money.

1809
02:41:57,010 --> 02:42:00,062
And they'll say, well, if that costs too much, then they just won't do it.

1810
02:42:00,402 --> 02:42:02,802
So it doesn't harm them at all.

1811
02:42:03,582 --> 02:42:06,182
They only do it if the revenue exceeds the costs.

1812
02:42:06,282 --> 02:42:10,042
And then they say something like, aha, that's exactly what I mean.

1813
02:42:10,122 --> 02:42:15,922
The miners get more profits and, and therefore the, all this activity

1814
02:42:15,922 --> 02:42:18,682
becomes like a mandatory activity or something.

1815
02:42:20,835 --> 02:42:26,515
you can see it, this is the problem, what they're saying is mining profits are bad, is

1816
02:42:26,515 --> 02:42:27,875
security budget is bad.

1817
02:42:28,555 --> 02:42:31,655
And then they have this very confused, the other half of that is to have this very

1818
02:42:31,655 --> 02:42:37,295
perplexing scenario where they say, it's bad if miners

1819
02:42:37,295 --> 02:42:39,567
profit by like

1820
02:42:39,887 --> 02:42:44,107
spending money or something, which is kind

1821
02:42:44,107 --> 02:42:50,027
of meaningless. It's a bizarre thing

1822
02:42:50,027 --> 02:42:53,447
because miners have to spend a lot of money.

1823
02:42:54,147 --> 02:42:56,227
That's the whole point of proof of work is that it's not free.

1824
02:42:58,547 --> 02:42:59,319
It's a

1825
02:42:59,339 --> 02:43:02,839
a little bit of a contradiction, but I think the only way of steel manning it and

1826
02:43:02,839 --> 02:43:07,999
getting something out of it at all, because I think a lot of it is confused and wrong,

1827
02:43:08,379 --> 02:43:11,459
but you could say something like this.

1828
02:43:12,099 --> 02:43:16,919
The presence of merge mining alters what the optimal miner

1829
02:43:16,919 --> 02:43:19,059
is. So the

1830
02:43:19,972 --> 02:43:23,092
someone who buys an ASIC, who buys cheap power.

1831
02:43:23,572 --> 02:43:29,452
It's like pre -emerge mining, they only did that, whereas now they do

1832
02:43:29,452 --> 02:43:33,472
a new thing, which is they get the gas tax credit.

1833
02:43:33,532 --> 02:43:34,112
No, I'm just kidding.

1834
02:43:34,412 --> 02:43:34,832
That's a joke.

1835
02:43:35,252 --> 02:43:37,252
the full coin is, of course, has happened many times.

1836
02:43:37,812 --> 02:43:38,772
the new thing is

1837
02:43:38,824 --> 02:43:44,244
not that they get the tax, natural gas tax credit, flaring revenue, or the demand

1838
02:43:44,244 --> 02:43:50,004
management, but is that now they have a greenhouse where they are drying, growing

1839
02:43:50,004 --> 02:43:51,184
plants and drying fruit.

1840
02:43:52,624 --> 02:43:58,224
post -emerge mining, they also can do these other things, heat a swimming pool.

1841
02:43:59,357 --> 02:44:00,517
No, I'm joking, of course.

1842
02:44:00,777 --> 02:44:05,257
the real thing that I'm actually saying is that post -merge mining, what these miners

1843
02:44:05,257 --> 02:44:10,897
can do is they will get money from merge mining, which is to say they have some

1844
02:44:10,897 --> 02:44:15,237
new thing, like the swimming pool, or like heating their house, whatever.

1845
02:44:16,477 --> 02:44:17,657
This new thing they do.

1846
02:44:18,549 --> 02:44:23,409
what people are concerned about is the optimal miner changing into that thing.

1847
02:44:23,629 --> 02:44:26,529
But that doesn't really make any sense if you think about it because the merge mining

1848
02:44:26,529 --> 02:44:31,429
thing is effectively free because of this argument I have about the inevitability of

1849
02:44:31,429 --> 02:44:33,569
merge mining that I can get into if people are interested.

1850
02:44:34,429 --> 02:44:37,229
But it's basically free and the activities it

1851
02:44:38,081 --> 02:44:43,821
encourages the miners to do is to maximize transaction fees.

1852
02:44:43,881 --> 02:44:48,801
other words, turns miners into like a Roger Vere type, people that are to be out there

1853
02:44:48,801 --> 02:44:54,341
evangelizing for Bitcoin, possibly hiring developers to make sidechains that they think

1854
02:44:54,341 --> 02:44:55,261
people will use.

1855
02:44:55,941 --> 02:44:57,834
So it's actually a very, very good thing.

1856
02:44:59,334 --> 02:45:01,014
And that's the situation.

1857
02:45:01,194 --> 02:45:07,074
I think what people are, one way of summarizing, if it's so good, do people still

1858
02:45:07,074 --> 02:45:12,474
complain about mining centralization is because their thought process

1859
02:45:12,474 --> 02:45:13,114
is,

1860
02:45:15,694 --> 02:45:17,586
like if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

1861
02:45:17,586 --> 02:45:22,586
but like multiply by infinity because in practice what they mean by that is

1862
02:45:22,586 --> 02:45:27,586
I know that mining has always changed and always will change,

1863
02:45:27,586 --> 02:45:31,586
and it constantly drops and adds new dimensions like whether or not it heats a swimming pool

1864
02:45:31,586 --> 02:45:34,586
and whether or not it has natural gas tax credits

1865
02:45:34,586 --> 02:45:37,586
and whether or not it uses hydroelectric power,

1866
02:45:37,586 --> 02:45:41,586
and I know that that has always happened and that always will happen,

1867
02:45:41,586 --> 02:45:51,586
but this new thing that, Paul, you have correctly forecast will happen is about to happen,

1868
02:45:51,586 --> 02:45:55,586
and I want to at least make a big deal about complaining about that thing

1869
02:45:55,586 --> 02:46:01,586
because I want the mining industry to change as little as possible, like end quote.

1870
02:46:01,586 --> 02:46:06,586
That is what those people really sort of mean at the end of the day,

1871
02:46:06,586 --> 02:46:13,586
but it's just as ridiculous as trying to stop miners from heating swimming pools.

1872
02:46:13,586 --> 02:46:17,586
I'm going to talk a little bit about the inevitability of blind merge mining

1873
02:46:17,586 --> 02:46:23,586
because part of the critique of merge mining is that merge mining isn't free.

1874
02:46:23,586 --> 02:46:25,586
They say, oh, miners have to do something to merge mine.

1875
02:46:25,586 --> 02:46:27,586
Sure, they get free.

1876
02:46:27,586 --> 02:46:32,586
When push comes to shove, now this is where the drivechain critics are really against the ropes,

1877
02:46:32,586 --> 02:46:36,586
and they have lost so much territory already that they cling to these last few things,

1878
02:46:36,586 --> 02:46:39,586
which they're also going to lose.

1879
02:46:39,586 --> 02:46:47,586
So at first they said, well, it's bad if miners earn revenue ever from sidechains.

1880
02:46:47,586 --> 02:46:48,586
How weird is that?

1881
02:46:48,586 --> 02:46:53,586
But then all you have to do is point out that that's the same as them earning revenue on L1.

1882
02:46:53,586 --> 02:47:00,586
Like what if everyone on L1 just decided to pay more money in transaction fees one day?

1883
02:47:01,586 --> 02:47:07,586
That is the exact same effect as collecting new transaction revenue from merge mine sidechains.

1884
02:47:07,586 --> 02:47:14,586
So they have to admit that they had to retreat from that and say, well, I can't do anything about that.

1885
02:47:14,586 --> 02:47:19,586
That was sort of sometimes incorrectly labeled as MEV in a very misleading

1886
02:47:19,586 --> 02:47:23,586
and absurdly confusing way that helps nobody achieve anything,

1887
02:47:23,586 --> 02:47:27,586
but that is sort of miners earning more money,

1888
02:47:27,586 --> 02:47:30,586
so miner revenue going up was sort of mislabeled as that.

1889
02:47:30,586 --> 02:47:35,586
But then the people say, well, okay, sure, the miners all make money.

1890
02:47:35,586 --> 02:47:36,586
That's good.

1891
02:47:36,586 --> 02:47:39,586
We now admit that that's good, but they have to do something.

1892
02:47:39,586 --> 02:47:41,586
They have to do the merge mining.

1893
02:47:41,586 --> 02:47:49,586
They have to run the software, and aha, the software might do something bad somewhere to someone.

1894
02:47:49,586 --> 02:47:57,586
Of course, again, it can't do something bad to the miners that is worse than the revenues that they get.

1895
02:47:57,586 --> 02:48:00,586
I mean, that should be obvious.

1896
02:48:00,586 --> 02:48:05,586
And then people say weird things like, well, maybe the software will do something bad merely by existing.

1897
02:48:05,586 --> 02:48:10,586
It will draw the miners into data centers and blah, blah, blah,

1898
02:48:10,586 --> 02:48:13,586
because you can have the sidechain node in a data center,

1899
02:48:13,586 --> 02:48:18,586
but you can have all the other mining stuff happen in a completely different computer.

1900
02:48:18,586 --> 02:48:22,586
And this is why merge mining, blind merge mining, is an inevitable equilibrium.

1901
02:48:22,586 --> 02:48:28,586
It's not like a weird new idea like Schnorr Signatures or SHA-256.

1902
02:48:28,586 --> 02:48:30,586
It's not like its own thing.

1903
02:48:30,586 --> 02:48:33,586
It's just an inevitable terminus.

1904
02:48:33,586 --> 02:48:40,586
It's an inevitable conclusion because the miners have an incentive to maximize their revenue and minimize their costs.

1905
02:48:40,586 --> 02:48:49,586
And so whatever the cost is for the merge mine chain, miners will set themselves immediately towards minimizing it.

1906
02:48:49,586 --> 02:48:55,586
So if the sidechain software has the property that it requires you to cut off your arms and legs and cut out your eyes and stuff,

1907
02:48:55,586 --> 02:48:59,586
like it's really bad somehow, or it requires you to call the government

1908
02:48:59,586 --> 02:49:06,586
and then put a revolver to your own skull and blow off your head, dying instantly.

1909
02:49:06,586 --> 02:49:10,586
Like if somehow that was required, the miners would get together and they'd say,

1910
02:49:10,586 --> 02:49:15,586
how can we beat this? We like earning this money, but we don't like paying this cost.

1911
02:49:15,586 --> 02:49:18,586
So how do we beat the cost?

1912
02:49:18,586 --> 02:49:21,586
And the miners would just say, well, the same thing with pools or whatever.

1913
02:49:21,586 --> 02:49:26,586
They'll say the smart thing to do is we'll have only one person pay the cost,

1914
02:49:26,586 --> 02:49:33,586
and then we'll all use whatever the result is of that thing, like whatever made that mandatory.

1915
02:49:33,586 --> 02:49:35,586
We'll just interface with that.

1916
02:49:35,586 --> 02:49:42,586
Then we'll have basically one person run the sidechain node, and then all of us will use that.

1917
02:49:42,586 --> 02:49:47,586
And this is supposedly some kind of centralization or something, but it's not.

1918
02:49:47,586 --> 02:49:57,586
Because the idea that centralization is the cost of running the sidechain node,

1919
02:49:57,586 --> 02:50:01,586
and the fact whether or not it costs an arm and a leg, that is centralization,

1920
02:50:01,586 --> 02:50:05,586
but it has nothing to do with the miners.

1921
02:50:05,586 --> 02:50:10,586
The miners want the node in order to obtain the fee revenues.

1922
02:50:10,586 --> 02:50:15,586
And I don't know if I'm making any sense here, but the part where blind merge mining becomes inevitable

1923
02:50:15,586 --> 02:50:18,586
is the miners just say, hey, wait a minute.

1924
02:50:18,586 --> 02:50:23,586
There are already a bunch of people running the sidechain node.

1925
02:50:23,586 --> 02:50:29,586
So no matter how expensive it is, these people already have the sidechain node.

1926
02:50:30,586 --> 02:50:34,586
They are regular users of the sidechain.

1927
02:50:34,586 --> 02:50:38,586
For them, the benefit already outweighs the cost of running it.

1928
02:50:38,586 --> 02:50:40,586
That must be the case always.

1929
02:50:40,586 --> 02:50:43,586
If that were never not the case, then it would just mean the sidechain network was a failure

1930
02:50:43,586 --> 02:50:46,586
and it didn't have users and it didn't exist.

1931
02:50:46,586 --> 02:50:50,586
So in order for the sidechain network to exist, there have to be people over there running the nodes.

1932
02:50:50,586 --> 02:50:55,586
As soon as that stops, then the network just falls out of existence.

1933
02:50:55,586 --> 02:51:01,586
In the world where these nodes are really, really expensive, the miners want to minimize their costs.

1934
02:51:01,586 --> 02:51:03,586
They just cut a deal with someone who's running a node.

1935
02:51:03,586 --> 02:51:07,586
They just find someone and they say, hey, you tell me what's going on.

1936
02:51:07,586 --> 02:51:09,586
It's like in FIRA.

1937
02:51:09,586 --> 02:51:14,586
You tell me what's going on with this node, and then I won't have to do that.

1938
02:51:14,586 --> 02:51:17,586
This only affects the people who are on the sidechain.

1939
02:51:17,586 --> 02:51:24,586
People on L1 are totally unaffected by this, but the miners are getting their cake and eating it too.

1940
02:51:24,586 --> 02:51:32,586
They get all the benefits of the merge mine fees, and they have reduced the cost to just having one relationship with some node.

1941
02:51:32,586 --> 02:51:39,586
And the reason why this works, and what BIP301 does is it just makes it so that no one can cheat anyone in this

1942
02:51:39,586 --> 02:51:47,586
and that all the roles are sanitized and standardized so that every miner can interface with every sidechain node if they wish.

1943
02:51:47,586 --> 02:51:51,586
The sidechain node just sends a tiny message with the hash and with the total fees.

1944
02:51:52,586 --> 02:51:54,586
I package this block up for you.

1945
02:51:54,586 --> 02:51:56,586
Here it is.

1946
02:51:56,586 --> 02:52:02,586
Take it and take all of the fee revenue, but leave just a tiny little bit for me.

1947
02:52:02,586 --> 02:52:08,586
And this amount should basically be the difference in value between L2 coins and L1 coins.

1948
02:52:08,586 --> 02:52:12,586
So it should be the exact same U.S. dollar value.

1949
02:52:12,586 --> 02:52:14,586
Very interesting.

1950
02:52:14,586 --> 02:52:17,586
DJ, thanks for being on stage.

1951
02:52:17,586 --> 02:52:18,586
What's on your mind?

1952
02:52:18,586 --> 02:52:20,586
What's your comment or question?

1953
02:52:20,586 --> 02:52:24,586
Just a quick question to Paul regarding the centralization point.

1954
02:52:24,586 --> 02:52:30,586
Wouldn't this then potentially incentivize users to, like the masses, to use only one sidechain?

1955
02:52:30,586 --> 02:52:35,586
And then because of that, everyone would simply centralize to that one sidechain?

1956
02:52:35,586 --> 02:52:38,586
Well, I actually know, because think about it.

1957
02:52:38,586 --> 02:52:42,586
If everyone – the way the blockchain works is the full node –

1958
02:52:42,586 --> 02:52:49,586
this is ironically that sidechains solve a problem that people think that they still have, which is this N-squared problem.

1959
02:52:49,586 --> 02:52:57,586
So the configuration where everyone is on one sidechain makes the sidechain node more and more expensive.

1960
02:52:57,586 --> 02:53:09,586
So at that point, people who want to run a full node on L2, it's better for them to start the new sidechain that has cheaper node costs.

1961
02:53:09,586 --> 02:53:16,586
Now, of course, all kinds of people can have all kinds of different beliefs about how badly they want to run the L2 node at all.

1962
02:53:16,586 --> 02:53:23,586
Right, but the thing is, wouldn't that then make it not – that wouldn't incentivize the masses to move to a new sidechain?

1963
02:53:23,586 --> 02:53:28,586
Because they would want to stay where the fees are cheapest for them, so they only care about their bottom line.

1964
02:53:28,586 --> 02:53:31,586
And so because of that, they would want to stay on the bigger sidechain.

1965
02:53:31,586 --> 02:53:38,586
I think that is the case that many people will not care about running nodes of any kind at all.

1966
02:53:39,586 --> 02:53:46,586
And my defense here is to say something like, if we don't have the BIP300 sidechain network,

1967
02:53:46,586 --> 02:53:52,586
then those people end up with fully custodial wallets because they don't care about nodes.

1968
02:53:52,586 --> 02:54:02,586
And so it's actually better to have a huge block – to try and catch all those people in a net that is the large block L2.

1969
02:54:03,586 --> 02:54:10,586
And I would hope – my appeal to the audience is, please don't compare that to L1 because that would never have happened.

1970
02:54:10,586 --> 02:54:13,586
Those people would have instead been custodial.

1971
02:54:13,586 --> 02:54:21,586
So instead, my appeal to the audience and to historians or whatever, to history book writers,

1972
02:54:21,586 --> 02:54:30,586
is I say, these people are not – at least these people are on – they have a UTXO on an L2 blockchain.

1973
02:54:31,586 --> 02:54:39,586
And they have a not-your-keys-not-your-coins UTXO, and they're not on custodial.

1974
02:54:39,586 --> 02:54:47,586
But don't we currently have that already with Lightning and with something else potentially in the future?

1975
02:54:47,586 --> 02:54:51,586
Well, on Lightning, we certainly do not have all the people. I'm thinking like 8 billion.

1976
02:54:51,586 --> 02:54:58,586
When I say the masses, I'm saying the Lightning network has very, very small adoption, like 0.025% or something.

1977
02:54:58,586 --> 02:55:03,586
Right, but that's because Bitcoin's adoption is still less than 1% of the world.

1978
02:55:03,586 --> 02:55:12,586
Well, I mean that's true, but I'm saying Lightning's adoption in terms of the number of coins, the percentage of coins of BTC is already small.

1979
02:55:12,586 --> 02:55:17,586
Lightning is a tiny minority of BTC. It's like a microcopic less than one-tenth of a percent.

1980
02:55:17,586 --> 02:55:24,586
Right, but then that would change as more people come to understand the reason to use Bitcoin.

1981
02:55:25,586 --> 02:55:30,586
Well, yeah, I hope that more people use L2s if they get something out of that.

1982
02:55:30,586 --> 02:55:40,586
I think that we would all agree that the L2 that most people use, unfortunately, is just that they buy coins on an exchange and they just keep them there.

1983
02:55:40,586 --> 02:55:45,586
They just think of it as TD Ameritrade or something, you know.

1984
02:55:45,586 --> 02:55:51,586
Yeah, but most people that do that are just simply using Bitcoin as an investment tool right now.

1985
02:55:51,586 --> 02:55:53,586
They're not using it as Bitcoin.

1986
02:55:53,586 --> 02:55:54,586
I agree.

1987
02:55:54,586 --> 02:56:08,586
Yeah, so I'm saying that the people actually using it, I would say those people would probably – Lightning, there's many differences between Lightning and the large block sidechain.

1988
02:56:08,586 --> 02:56:14,586
It's not also about – people are different, but again also the transactions are different.

1989
02:56:15,586 --> 02:56:30,586
So it's quite possible to me that someone will use Lightning for a certain use case a lot, and they'll use the L2 large blockchain for a certain use case a lot, and then they'll use the L1 chain for other different use cases.

1990
02:56:30,586 --> 02:56:34,586
The heterogeneity will be big.

1991
02:56:34,586 --> 02:56:42,586
I don't necessarily think – with L2s and with anything where there's a one-to-one peg, there's not necessarily a network effect.

1992
02:56:42,586 --> 02:56:45,586
So there could be lots of different things of all different shapes and sizes.

1993
02:56:45,586 --> 02:56:52,586
Yeah, like the way I see it kind of is like Bitcoin's L1 seems to be where people would want to keep their savings.

1994
02:56:52,586 --> 02:56:58,586
It's the most secure, the most decentralized, where Lightning is the payment network built on top of Bitcoin.

1995
02:56:58,586 --> 02:57:07,586
And the sidechains would just be pretty much everything else in the shitcoin world, which I don't really have an interest in.

1996
02:57:07,586 --> 02:57:12,586
But if that is bringing revenue to miners, that could benefit Bitcoin.

1997
02:57:13,586 --> 02:57:26,586
And part of the reason I think you don't have an interest in it is because it's 99% scam, and so anyone who does anything is guilt by association, and sort of rightly so to some extent.

1998
02:57:26,586 --> 02:57:40,586
But it's a tragedy that we have lost the ability to speak about making Bitcoin useful because all the alt projects, 99% of them are scams.

1999
02:57:40,586 --> 02:57:44,586
And so it's like to even bring it up, it's kind of like doesn't that person – what is that person?

2000
02:57:44,586 --> 02:57:51,586
Right, well, so Paul, I heard you mention earlier, right, saying that like how could people be so against this?

2001
02:57:51,586 --> 02:57:58,586
And I think to answer for those people, and I know this is dangerous because I can't assume and then be wrong here,

2002
02:57:58,586 --> 02:58:09,586
but I think most people that are against sidechains and drivechains are against it for the trade-offs to security and the trade-offs with potential centralization.

2003
02:58:10,586 --> 02:58:29,586
So I don't think it's that people don't understand that something like this could open up more use cases for Bitcoin besides just being a store of value in a medium of exchange and open it up to, like you mentioned, perpetuals and other things.

2004
02:58:29,586 --> 02:58:34,586
But I think the trade-offs are really the more important conversation to have.

2005
02:58:35,586 --> 02:58:41,586
On L1, though, there is no trade-off. There's no – the mining centralization isn't a real concept, and it doesn't get worse.

2006
02:58:41,586 --> 02:58:55,586
The thing that is – the things that are real are the node centralization, which is unchanged, and in fact improved because there's no hard fork campaign to increase the block size on L1 ever anymore, and L1 can ossify.

2007
02:58:56,586 --> 02:59:05,586
So that's not changed. And then the miner centralization, they either split it off into node centralization, which is unchanged, or you split it off into the security budget, which is improved.

2008
02:59:05,586 --> 02:59:10,586
So those are both improved, so far from being a trade-off. That's just an improvement.

2009
02:59:10,586 --> 02:59:38,586
And then as far as the security, again, security, it either means node cost, which again is unaffected or improved in the form of no one doing hard fork campaigns anymore, or unaffected because the L1 cost of running a node does not increase by having to validate the BIP300 rules because the BIP300 rules are just a tiny, completely negligible, like one millionth of a percent of what the computer is already doing to do the node.

2010
02:59:40,322 --> 02:59:43,322
You can do all this signature checking or whatever.

2011
02:59:43,322 --> 02:59:48,322
And that or security, I mean, it's referring to the security budget, which increases from merge mining.

2012
02:59:48,322 --> 02:59:55,322
So there really are no trade-offs, and there really is no mining centralization – there's no trade-off. It's just an improvement.

2013
02:59:57,322 --> 03:00:04,322
And I think that's where a lot of your critics disagree, is you saying there are no trade-offs, and they see it as there are trade-offs.

2014
03:00:04,322 --> 03:00:08,322
And so I think this is kind of what my point was to reply to Adam and you.

2015
03:00:08,322 --> 03:00:18,322
And you mentioned that you did create some videos explaining – and I think I just don't see there the cons or the negatives and the trade-offs.

2016
03:00:18,322 --> 03:00:23,322
I only see you promoting the positive side of it.

2017
03:00:25,322 --> 03:00:28,322
What negative effects are they referring to?

2018
03:00:29,322 --> 03:00:38,322
I think that's what I was saying I would want to see from you, is you just telling us what you see as some of the trade-offs.

2019
03:00:38,322 --> 03:00:46,322
You see in 2016, if you go on drivechain.info and you go to the bottom and you click literature, or if you open it on desktop, it's in the sidebar.

2020
03:00:46,322 --> 03:00:48,322
You can click literature and scroll to the very bottom.

2021
03:00:49,322 --> 03:00:59,322
And in June 2016, I did a presentation called Sidechain Privatization, which is basically – I'm referring to this idea that the miners will use the sidechains to make money.

2022
03:00:59,322 --> 03:01:01,322
It's the same idea we've been talking about today.

2023
03:01:01,322 --> 03:01:09,322
And then I had one in September called Sidechain Risks, and the subtitle is The Case Against Worrying.

2024
03:01:10,322 --> 03:01:17,322
And so that one, I think, has 350 PowerPoint slides and is six hours long of just me speaking for an entire day.

2025
03:01:17,322 --> 03:01:25,322
And in fact, I literally am speaking, and the sun sets, and then day sets, and then it is night.

2026
03:01:25,322 --> 03:01:28,322
And so I speak for like…

2027
03:01:28,322 --> 03:01:29,322
So you spoke for two days.

2028
03:01:30,322 --> 03:01:32,322
It's like many hours, hours long.

2029
03:01:32,322 --> 03:01:40,322
And that was the state of affairs in September of September 2016.

2030
03:01:40,322 --> 03:01:46,322
And honestly, those two presentations are still – unfortunately, I went to the cutting edge first.

2031
03:01:46,322 --> 03:01:58,322
And everything since then has been me going back to deal with much simpler misunderstandings such as Bob McElrath not being able to keep L1 and L2 costs in different columns and things.

2032
03:01:58,322 --> 03:01:59,322
Silly things like that.

2033
03:01:59,322 --> 03:02:02,322
Or people saying that merchants need to pay for miners to make more money.

2034
03:02:02,322 --> 03:02:11,322
And I think his point with that is simply that to run the L2, the drivechain, you're going to have a very centralized set of nodes running it.

2035
03:02:11,322 --> 03:02:13,322
And so that would be the centralization.

2036
03:02:13,322 --> 03:02:14,322
Yeah, but that is the whole point though.

2037
03:02:14,322 --> 03:02:20,322
Of course, that is the entire point is that the people who want the more expensive node, that's what they want.

2038
03:02:20,322 --> 03:02:30,322
And if you do not want the more expensive node, we no longer have to play tug of war or play politics on what the one size fits all node is for everyone.

2039
03:02:30,322 --> 03:02:44,322
The L1 node can stay small, and then Roger Ver and Brian Armstrong and all these other people who are all billionaires who are some of the hardest working, most dedicated to Bitcoin people in the world that we kicked out or they chose to leave.

2040
03:02:44,322 --> 03:02:47,322
And there's lots of nuance and lots to say about that.

2041
03:02:47,322 --> 03:02:48,322
A lot of that was their own fault.

2042
03:02:49,322 --> 03:03:09,322
Well, so the thing is, that's what my point was though, Paul, is that those rich folks who are incentivized and able can actually then go ahead and pull that net and capture the masses to a centralized chain, a centralized drivechain.

2043
03:03:09,322 --> 03:03:13,322
And then that would then defeat the whole purpose of Bitcoin.

2044
03:03:13,322 --> 03:03:20,322
No, no, no, no, no, no. This is a good thing. You have to keep in mind that right now there are no coiners and they have no Bitcoin and they don't run any node.

2045
03:03:20,322 --> 03:03:30,322
So when we want to move as many of them, like say that those people, they have no node, they're on the left or something, and we want to move them as far to the right as possible.

2046
03:03:30,322 --> 03:03:53,322
So the ideal thing would be if they all came on to somehow, if they could all get on to L1 node and they could all get on to Lightning and somehow we live in a weird, really weird world where every L1 transaction is just one rich guy opening a Lightning channel with like this one transaction and you open, I guess it'd be 43 bytes for a tap pay to tap root output.

2047
03:03:53,322 --> 03:04:01,322
So you just divide and that would be 1 million divided by 43 and you try to onboard as many people to a Lightning channel as possible. That would be like the ideal thing.

2048
03:04:01,322 --> 03:04:21,322
But if you can't do that and those people are all the way on the left and they don't own Bitcoin, they don't run any Bitcoin node of any kind, SPV, Lightning, full node, they don't own anything, then it's wrong of you to critique me for moving them somewhat to the right.

2049
03:04:21,322 --> 03:04:26,322
Every time they move to the right there's more points for us and we want to maximize our score.

2050
03:04:27,322 --> 03:04:38,322
And I would argue that regardless of these sidechains, there's going to be centralized chains with or without these sidechains. Just right now they're not sidechains on Bitcoin.

2051
03:04:39,322 --> 03:04:54,322
Correct. And I get that. But the thing is, Isaiah, the whole problem here is that I think that we don't want them to be on Bitcoin in the sense that we don't want to – it's not that we care if they're on Bitcoin or not.

2052
03:04:54,322 --> 03:05:11,322
It's that we care about the incentives that that will then create for the miners who are really kind of the backbone, right? Because if we kind of screw up the incentives for the miners on Bitcoin, then that would ruin everything for Bitcoin.

2053
03:05:11,322 --> 03:05:16,322
So I think that's really the biggest pain point on figuring out that piece of it.

2054
03:05:16,322 --> 03:05:28,322
I think your assessment is accurate, but you see why I don't agree at all. Because what they mean by screw up incentives for miners is pay the miners more money. That's what I just kind of had a long speech about.

2055
03:05:28,322 --> 03:05:29,322
Correct.

2056
03:05:30,322 --> 03:05:41,322
It's equivalent to just paying more transaction fees on L1, which is a good thing. So it's exactly equivalent to a thing that we already do and that we already say is good. So I think this is a torturous, confused path.

2057
03:05:41,322 --> 03:05:47,322
But there's something – I will let you speak, but there is something you said about the backbone that I think is a very important point.

2058
03:05:47,322 --> 03:05:50,322
Oh, no, please. Go ahead.

2059
03:05:50,322 --> 03:05:53,322
No, no, no. Yeah, I mean I think that's the biggest myth.

2060
03:05:54,322 --> 03:06:00,322
The idea of the miners being the backbone is upside down, and in fact is contradicted by what those same people will say.

2061
03:06:00,322 --> 03:06:11,322
The same people will say miners don't matter. SegWit2x proved that the miners are enslaved to the nodes and the miners are losers, in fact.

2062
03:06:11,322 --> 03:06:32,322
I'm paraphrasing, of course. But this idea is – this is an upside down idea that people have, and if they flipped the idea so that it was right side up, then they would understand why drivechain is good for L1 ossification, why it doesn't affect incentives, and why actually everything is working as it should, and they would be very happy if they did.

2063
03:06:32,322 --> 03:06:50,322
So the upside down idea is to look at causality and say the pool assembles the block, they pass the block to the miner, the miner stamps the block, and then the node gets the block and validates it.

2064
03:06:51,322 --> 03:07:04,322
And this is sort of literally what happens in time, but this is a mistake. This is like saying that umbrellas cause rain or something, because it's not actually what really happened.

2065
03:07:04,322 --> 03:07:12,322
It's kind of like saying that – it would be weird. It's like saying that cooking food in a restaurant causes people to appear or something like that.

2066
03:07:12,322 --> 03:07:20,322
But the umbrella causes rain is a better example, because people take their umbrellas with them when they think it's going to rain, and then the rain happens later.

2067
03:07:20,322 --> 03:07:32,322
But the true way of looking at it that is not mistaken is to flip it and say the nodes – running a node is what you do first.

2068
03:07:32,322 --> 03:07:38,322
If you want to be a miner, one of the many things you have to do is run the node.

2069
03:07:39,322 --> 03:07:47,322
So everyone who's running a node is on the network, but only some people who mine – only some of the nodes are used for mining.

2070
03:07:47,322 --> 03:07:56,322
And the miners must build a block that the node will give the green check to, will validate.

2071
03:07:57,322 --> 03:08:02,322
The miners are replaceable, but the nodes – the rules of the nodes are absolute.

2072
03:08:02,322 --> 03:08:09,322
The nodes will fire the miners, so to speak, if the miner sends an invalid block.

2073
03:08:09,322 --> 03:08:13,322
So the miners are working for the nodes.

2074
03:08:13,322 --> 03:08:19,322
And similarly, it's also reversed that the pools are working for the miners.

2075
03:08:19,322 --> 03:08:22,322
It appears as though the pools – so the pools are actually at the bottom.

2076
03:08:22,322 --> 03:08:31,322
It sort of appears as though the pools are at the top, because the time causality puts them first, but that is misleading.

2077
03:08:31,322 --> 03:08:38,322
The pools are actually at the bottom, because the pool knows that really all they have is their brand and like an IP address and some software.

2078
03:08:39,322 --> 03:08:41,322
Whereas the hashers have invested.

2079
03:08:41,322 --> 03:08:48,322
They have invested in like ASICs, and they have a setup that they've put a lot of money into.

2080
03:08:48,322 --> 03:08:52,322
And they can – at the drop of a hat, they can point their hash rate to a different pool.

2081
03:08:52,322 --> 03:08:57,322
So the pools – and someone could spin up a new pool at any time.

2082
03:08:58,322 --> 03:09:09,322
So the pool needs the miners much more than the miner – the hasher, you know, the hasher miner, much more than the hasher needs the pool.

2083
03:09:09,322 --> 03:09:20,322
The hasher does not need any individual pool, even though pool is very, very helpful for the miners, because it reduces what would otherwise be a crippling cost, which is the cost of the variance.

2084
03:09:21,322 --> 03:09:28,322
So the miners like having a pool around, just like they like having cooling and they like having electricity around.

2085
03:09:29,322 --> 03:09:33,322
This is one of the many things that a miner needs to be profitable and effective.

2086
03:09:33,322 --> 03:09:35,322
But they don't need any particular pool.

2087
03:09:35,322 --> 03:09:38,322
They could just switch to some other pool instantaneously.

2088
03:09:38,322 --> 03:09:43,322
And so the pools are, in fact, vulnerable, and the miners are, in fact, vulnerable, and the nodes are not.

2089
03:09:43,322 --> 03:09:47,322
So the idea is the miners are the backbone.

2090
03:09:47,322 --> 03:09:51,322
If we screw up the miners, it will affect Bitcoin.

2091
03:09:51,322 --> 03:09:54,322
But this is actually the reverse.

2092
03:09:54,322 --> 03:10:01,322
Is SegWit2x actually proved correctly that the miners are not in the driver's seat?

2093
03:10:01,322 --> 03:10:05,322
If the miners are screwed up, the nodes are, in fact, unaffected.

2094
03:10:08,322 --> 03:10:10,322
So it's actually a flip.

2095
03:10:10,322 --> 03:10:21,322
And if you confront the people on this, they'll have to at least admit to being in a contradiction, because they do say that miners don't control anything, and SegWit2x proved that, and they're right.

2096
03:10:21,322 --> 03:10:26,322
But then they also say if mining is screwed up, then the whole network is screwed up.

2097
03:10:26,322 --> 03:10:27,322
But that's not correct.

2098
03:10:27,322 --> 03:10:32,322
The network will just continue to ignore any wayward miners.

2099
03:10:32,322 --> 03:10:39,322
And so it's because the nodes outrank the miners that the whole design is sound.

2100
03:10:39,322 --> 03:10:52,322
And that is, in fact, when I started with a blank piece of paper, when I was going to design BIP300 back in, like, summer 2015, that is exactly how I set it up for that exact reason.

2101
03:10:52,322 --> 03:10:59,322
I said, well, listen, there's actually some node costs that we care about, such as the block size limit.

2102
03:10:59,322 --> 03:11:04,322
And then there's also things that are just folded into the difficulty adjustment, but we don't see.

2103
03:11:04,322 --> 03:11:08,322
Like, we don't see whether or not people are using ASICs or FPGAs.

2104
03:11:08,322 --> 03:11:11,322
We don't see exactly where the miners are getting their power.

2105
03:11:11,322 --> 03:11:13,322
We have no idea where that is.

2106
03:11:13,322 --> 03:11:15,322
We already don't see those costs.

2107
03:11:15,322 --> 03:11:25,322
So I said what we can do is we can fold the large block thing that Roger Ver wants into the difficulty adjustment.

2108
03:11:25,322 --> 03:11:33,322
And then it won't be in the L1 costs, and it must be the case that this is allowed, because we already do it.

2109
03:11:33,322 --> 03:11:40,322
And that is exactly how I came up with the idea in the first place.

2110
03:11:40,322 --> 03:11:44,322
So this question is quite very much at the heart of the matter.

2111
03:11:44,322 --> 03:11:49,322
This is also why I was never deterred by people who said, but that's kind of a different, people misunderstood the idea.

2112
03:11:49,322 --> 03:11:57,322
I knew from the ground up that it must be sound, so I just kind of knew that they were just confused about something or something else.

2113
03:11:57,322 --> 03:12:02,322
So now BigCode has had his hand up for a while.

2114
03:12:02,322 --> 03:12:03,322
Hi, guys.

2115
03:12:03,322 --> 03:12:05,322
Thank you for having me.

2116
03:12:05,322 --> 03:12:07,322
Paul, I have a question for you.

2117
03:12:07,322 --> 03:12:12,322
You're mentioning this node or running a node cost.

2118
03:12:12,322 --> 03:12:14,322
Can you explain what do you mean with this?

2119
03:12:14,322 --> 03:12:20,322
Is it hardware or how much you pay for the hardware?

2120
03:12:20,322 --> 03:12:22,322
That's a very good question.

2121
03:12:22,322 --> 03:12:28,322
I know that is a block size and how much data we consume.

2122
03:12:28,322 --> 03:12:38,322
But why I'm bringing this, because, you know, the technology, like, go far with the storage sizes and stuff like that.

2123
03:12:39,322 --> 03:12:52,322
So I don't think so that any problem will be in the future, because we see now that the SSDs or NVMEs are going even 30 terabytes and even more.

2124
03:12:52,322 --> 03:12:56,322
And Bitcoin is very small in that comparison.

2125
03:12:56,322 --> 03:13:02,322
Like, I mean, the storage per terabyte, it's going down all the time.

2126
03:13:02,322 --> 03:13:06,322
And I don't think so that will be any problem in the future.

2127
03:13:07,322 --> 03:13:08,322
Thank you.

2128
03:13:08,322 --> 03:13:10,322
This is an excellent question.

2129
03:13:10,322 --> 03:13:13,322
By cost, I mean cost.

2130
03:13:13,322 --> 03:13:20,322
So let me tell you a story about Milton Friedman, a tiny story, where Milton Friedman once on television, he was on the Phil Donahue show.

2131
03:13:20,322 --> 03:13:22,322
And he was talking about gas, gasoline.

2132
03:13:22,322 --> 03:13:28,322
And he was saying the price has gone down, but the cost has gone up because you had long gas lines.

2133
03:13:28,322 --> 03:13:42,322
So the price of the pump was low, but the cost, which included having to wait in line and the possibility of not having enough gas for everyone, that was so annoying that the cost had actually gone up.

2134
03:13:42,322 --> 03:13:44,322
So that's the sense in which I mean a cost.

2135
03:13:44,322 --> 03:13:55,322
I mean literally everything inconvenient about running a node, which would include possibly the idea that because for a long time, and I think to some extent this is still the case,

2136
03:13:56,322 --> 03:14:09,322
the node has a very unique bandwidth signature, which is that it's collecting transactions and then a block is found and the whole thing pulses to the point where our friends at the NSA who are listening to everything that we say and do

2137
03:14:09,322 --> 03:14:19,322
and other people in presumably who are excellent hackers in Russia and China and Japan and France, they're watching the internet.

2138
03:14:19,322 --> 03:14:22,322
They probably know the physical location of the nodes.

2139
03:14:22,322 --> 03:14:24,322
So I include that as a cost.

2140
03:14:24,322 --> 03:14:26,322
I mean the cost.

2141
03:14:26,322 --> 03:14:31,322
I mean however much it costs for you to get the software, run it on your hardware.

2142
03:14:31,322 --> 03:14:38,322
I mean the cost of the electricity you're using in the CPU that is running the Bitcoin Core.

2143
03:14:38,322 --> 03:14:46,322
I mean the cost you pay when you try to figure out which software is Bitcoin Core.

2144
03:14:46,322 --> 03:14:47,322
You know, whatever.

2145
03:14:47,322 --> 03:14:57,322
A Bitcoin SV guy could say you could go to Bitcoin.com and accidentally think that Bitcoin cache is the same as a BTC network even though they're different networks.

2146
03:14:57,322 --> 03:15:01,322
So I mean the whole cost inclusive of everything.

2147
03:15:01,322 --> 03:15:03,322
And maybe that's…

2148
03:15:03,322 --> 03:15:05,322
Yeah, even dividing.

2149
03:15:05,322 --> 03:15:07,322
Or maybe that's evading the question.

2150
03:15:08,322 --> 03:15:12,322
So you also mentioned that costs change over time.

2151
03:15:12,322 --> 03:15:19,322
This is another very important point, which is that the cost of something today is not the same cost next year.

2152
03:15:19,322 --> 03:15:24,322
And in economics we have things like interest rates, discount rates to account for that.

2153
03:15:24,322 --> 03:15:27,322
Is it easier to buy a car today or buy a car next year?

2154
03:15:27,322 --> 03:15:34,322
Well, if you have $100 today, you could whatever, invest it in the stock market or invest it in a certificate of deposit or something.

2155
03:15:34,322 --> 03:15:38,322
You get an interest rate and then next year you have more money.

2156
03:15:38,322 --> 03:15:43,322
So costs in 2023 are not the same as costs in 2024.

2157
03:15:43,322 --> 03:15:49,322
And in fact there's other things, GDP deflator, CPI, whatever, regular inflation, blah, blah, blah.

2158
03:15:49,322 --> 03:15:56,322
And as you say, hard drive space is plummeting in cost and bandwidth is also plummeting in cost.

2159
03:15:56,322 --> 03:16:03,322
It's very good for that one cost I mentioned about the NSA being able to find the physical location of the node.

2160
03:16:03,322 --> 03:16:08,322
It's very good if more people are using the Internet and actually using lots and lots of Internet.

2161
03:16:08,322 --> 03:16:13,322
Like if more people are streaming video, more people are using Zoom, more people are working from home.

2162
03:16:13,322 --> 03:16:21,322
Well, that means that all the network traffic is just more – there's just more traffic and it's just harder to log everything.

2163
03:16:21,322 --> 03:16:29,322
And it's easier for you to say build a Bitcoin Core node that transmits the blockchain over Zoom or something.

2164
03:16:29,322 --> 03:16:37,322
It's a weird Zoom QR code video or something like that so that it just looks like an encrypted Zoom.

2165
03:16:37,322 --> 03:16:43,322
So in all these ways the cost is coming down and the decentralization of Bitcoin is going up.

2166
03:16:43,322 --> 03:16:45,322
It's becoming more decentralized.

2167
03:16:45,322 --> 03:16:51,322
But of course every week 1,000 blocks are added to the blockchain.

2168
03:16:51,322 --> 03:16:58,322
And when you re-sync the network from scratch, to start up a new full node you need to connect and get the whole blockchain from scratch,

2169
03:16:58,322 --> 03:17:03,322
download and validate everything.

2170
03:17:03,322 --> 03:17:11,322
So this problem becomes more difficult to the tune of 1,000 blocks per week, every week.

2171
03:17:11,322 --> 03:17:14,322
So in that sense the decentralization is going down.

2172
03:17:14,322 --> 03:17:18,322
And there's a sort of war between these two things, and of course reasonable people disagree.

2173
03:17:18,322 --> 03:17:25,322
Luke has calculated that 350 kilobytes should be the block size as of around 2019.

2174
03:17:25,322 --> 03:17:29,322
And then he says it should be slowly growing.

2175
03:17:29,322 --> 03:17:32,322
And yeah, I think there's some truth to that.

2176
03:17:32,322 --> 03:17:36,322
We want the L1 blockchain to be very, very, very easy for everyone to get.

2177
03:17:36,322 --> 03:17:43,322
It's partly because I'm very firm in my belief that it's viable for people to get as much block space they want on the upper layers.

2178
03:17:43,322 --> 03:17:51,322
That I say, well let the people have the space they want on the upper layers and we can shrink L1, which I support.

2179
03:17:52,322 --> 03:18:01,322
And in fact back in scaling 3, that was my October 2016 presentation, that is what it was about.

2180
03:18:01,322 --> 03:18:18,322
Paul, do you and Luke and others who support this 300 kilobyte block size limit, is that because with SegWit it would effectively achieve the original block size of Bitcoin?

2181
03:18:19,322 --> 03:18:23,322
Well it depends on how you account for the witness discount.

2182
03:18:23,322 --> 03:18:38,322
Because the witness discount only applies some of the time, but now ironically with Ordinals and with other things, it's kind of weird.

2183
03:18:38,322 --> 03:18:43,322
Because on one hand you have the amount of actual data you need to download.

2184
03:18:43,322 --> 03:18:52,322
Whereas if you were downloading a file in your web browser and it went into the downloads folder, that can sometimes be 4 megabytes in the case of an Ordinal.

2185
03:18:52,322 --> 03:18:56,322
But it has no signatures to check.

2186
03:18:56,322 --> 03:18:59,322
And so the SigOps is another thing that is difficult.

2187
03:18:59,322 --> 03:19:09,322
So it's not actually, it's not necessarily one dimensional, but having the block size is sort of a good proxy for that.

2188
03:19:09,322 --> 03:19:20,322
So one of the reasons why there was the 4 to 1 discount is because your average Bitcoin output that adds to the UTXO set, which is something that you have to keep in memory.

2189
03:19:20,322 --> 03:19:26,322
The average Bitcoin output is about 4 times the size of an input.

2190
03:19:26,322 --> 03:19:27,322
The input is actually very big.

2191
03:19:27,322 --> 03:19:37,322
So if you bought $50 worth of Bitcoin, you have one UTXO and you want to pay like 100 people.

2192
03:19:39,569 --> 03:19:45,569
That costs the network something like, I don't know, I can just do it off the,

2193
03:19:45,569 --> 03:19:52,569
it's like 100 bytes, 120 bytes in, and then maybe 100 times, it depends,

2194
03:19:52,569 --> 03:19:59,569
maybe 40 bytes or so. Depends on what output type, but that is like whatever that is.

2195
03:19:59,569 --> 03:20:05,569
So that's like a 4,000, what did I just say, 100 times 40, so 4,000.

2196
03:20:05,569 --> 03:20:11,569
Now, if those 100 people, if they all get together and they want to sign one transaction

2197
03:20:11,569 --> 03:20:21,569
that takes in 100 inputs and pays all that back to you as one output,

2198
03:20:21,569 --> 03:20:26,569
that cost will be enormous. It will be, each of the inputs will be whatever,

2199
03:20:26,569 --> 03:20:31,569
like 100 something, and then there'll be one output.

2200
03:20:31,569 --> 03:20:37,569
So it'll be whatever, 10, 20, 30 times the size, and the signature has to cover all this.

2201
03:20:37,569 --> 03:20:44,569
Depends on details, but the point is that having them go in and come out is different cost.

2202
03:20:44,569 --> 03:20:49,569
So I don't remember now why I brought that up, but now Isaiah has a hand up.

2203
03:20:49,569 --> 03:20:53,569
It was because of my question. Paul, we've been going for over two hours now.

2204
03:20:53,569 --> 03:20:56,569
Would you like to continue, or should we?

2205
03:20:56,569 --> 03:20:57,569
I'll continue.

2206
03:20:57,569 --> 03:21:03,569
Okay, sure. Isaiah, go ahead with your comment or question. Thanks for being here.

2207
03:21:03,569 --> 03:21:08,569
Oh yeah, no, for sure. I just have to say, I do have to go, but yeah, thanks for inviting me to the stage.

2208
03:21:08,569 --> 03:21:13,569
I came in here, I'm still pretty neutral when it comes to this whole BIP300,

2209
03:21:13,569 --> 03:21:21,569
but I do think Paul did a really good job of convincing me in saying that L1 won't really change much.

2210
03:21:21,569 --> 03:21:25,569
When it comes down to it, Bitcoiners, we just want to run our full node.

2211
03:21:25,569 --> 03:21:28,569
We want to have our savings on L1. We want to use Lightning.

2212
03:21:28,569 --> 03:21:33,569
All of that stuff seems to be pretty unchanged by that.

2213
03:21:33,569 --> 03:21:38,569
I will look into this more after, because I haven't done too much research on this yet,

2214
03:21:38,569 --> 03:21:42,569
but yeah, thank you for inviting me.

2215
03:21:42,569 --> 03:21:48,569
Yeah, thanks a lot for coming, and I will say that I think some people,

2216
03:21:49,569 --> 03:21:53,569
they're really not going to be happy unless nothing is changed anywhere at all,

2217
03:21:53,569 --> 03:22:01,569
and hopefully you in the audience can see that, well, of course we could get nothing to change at all if we just did nothing,

2218
03:22:01,569 --> 03:22:09,569
but the point is to change nothing on L1 while still having something cool happen on L2.

2219
03:22:09,569 --> 03:22:16,569
Some people, I think, just have this idea in their head that anything that changes at all,

2220
03:22:16,569 --> 03:22:23,569
even if someone broadcasts an L1 transaction that pays a high fee, that is a change or something,

2221
03:22:23,569 --> 03:22:26,569
but it's not in principle a change.

2222
03:22:26,569 --> 03:22:34,569
One thing that also I think is the case is that people think, like, Bitcoin right now is small and niche,

2223
03:22:34,569 --> 03:22:40,569
and if it becomes mainstream, then it will, you know, that will be different,

2224
03:22:40,569 --> 03:22:44,569
which is, of course it will be different. It will be way better.

2225
03:22:44,569 --> 03:22:47,569
That's what we're all hoping to achieve.

2226
03:22:47,569 --> 03:22:51,569
And if we don't achieve that, unfortunately, I think it's likely that something else eventually will,

2227
03:22:51,569 --> 03:22:59,569
and then Bitcoin will go to zero, which, of course, is what everyone would prefer to avoid at all costs.

2228
03:23:03,569 --> 03:23:07,569
All right. People who've just joined the stage, go ahead with your comments and questions.

2229
03:23:08,569 --> 03:23:16,569
Hey, Paul. So, I wanted to just chip in and say, isn't it amazing that we're now in 2023,

2230
03:23:16,569 --> 03:23:24,569
and the BTC discussion is still stalled out, as we just heard, on what's the cost of a node?

2231
03:23:24,569 --> 03:23:28,569
Does hardware improve? Does bandwidth improve?

2232
03:23:28,569 --> 03:23:34,569
That was literally all discussed and predicted from 2015 to 2017,

2233
03:23:34,569 --> 03:23:40,569
and you still have people today joining the BTC discussion wondering what are the answers to that stuff,

2234
03:23:40,569 --> 03:23:46,569
and they can't get an accurate answer because the BTC community has all in on this,

2235
03:23:46,569 --> 03:23:50,569
we're never going to raise the block size kind of strategy.

2236
03:23:50,569 --> 03:23:55,569
And the more discussion there is about this, you know, everything's just stalled,

2237
03:23:55,569 --> 03:24:00,569
and I think it's amazing that after six years, that's where we are.

2238
03:24:00,569 --> 03:24:08,569
So, what I want to know, I guess, is how you're going to break the deadlock to convince people that drivechain is sort of necessary.

2239
03:24:13,569 --> 03:24:17,569
I'm not sure everything is stalled, but yeah, I'll let Paul answer. Sorry.

2240
03:24:17,569 --> 03:24:28,569
Yeah, I think partly, one thing that I do think is stalled is I wrote the post measuring decentralization in September 2015,

2241
03:24:29,569 --> 03:24:33,569
and that was all about how decentralization is the cost of running the node.

2242
03:24:33,569 --> 03:24:37,569
And everyone kind of accepted that definition at the time.

2243
03:24:37,569 --> 03:24:43,569
Even made it onto like Bitcoin Wizards IRC chat and other kinds of like prestigious places.

2244
03:24:43,569 --> 03:24:52,569
But then, so I kind of went directly from that post in my brain to like inventing drivechain,

2245
03:24:52,569 --> 03:24:59,569
because I was like, okay, drivechain will be a thing, it'll be a large block that is not part of the L1 node cost.

2246
03:24:59,569 --> 03:25:04,569
And I think, I don't know, no one really like followed me into that.

2247
03:25:04,569 --> 03:25:09,569
But that seemed kind of simple to me, but people only now following me to that.

2248
03:25:09,569 --> 03:25:18,569
I think partly what you might be, I think part of the anxiety, because you have your nice Bitcoin Cash logo,

2249
03:25:19,569 --> 03:25:28,569
I think it's like part of the anxiety around BIP300 is that it would make,

2250
03:25:28,569 --> 03:25:35,569
like something very weird happened with the block size debate where those people would normally,

2251
03:25:35,569 --> 03:25:43,569
the small blockers and large blockers would have cooperated to activate BIP300 and both get what they want.

2252
03:25:43,569 --> 03:25:48,569
But what instead happened was the large blockers left.

2253
03:25:48,569 --> 03:25:56,569
And so now my, I was kind of, the drivechain is left as kind of a solution without a problem,

2254
03:25:56,569 --> 03:26:05,569
because instead of how do we stick together, it was just everyone fork off and make your own coin.

2255
03:26:05,569 --> 03:26:11,569
And this led to people criticizing each other's ideas in exactly this way,

2256
03:26:11,569 --> 03:26:19,569
the toxicity of saying other ideas aren't good and of the large blockers also saying that the small blockers ideas aren't good

2257
03:26:19,569 --> 03:26:23,569
and that small blockers are lame, which also happens.

2258
03:26:23,569 --> 03:26:28,569
And that is all because, all this is just because of the split.

2259
03:26:28,569 --> 03:26:36,569
And this now puts people who are supporters of Bitcoin Cash in an awkward point of view where if BIP300 activates and large block,

2260
03:26:37,569 --> 03:26:45,569
you know, like there could be like a Bitcoin Cash sidechain of BTC that is exactly the same software as Bitcoin Cash.

2261
03:26:47,569 --> 03:26:51,569
I think that's what people are afraid of. That seems to be the discussion.

2262
03:26:51,569 --> 03:27:01,569
People are saying, well, we don't want to activate drivechains because they're worried that the mining incentives will be changed by a sidechain.

2263
03:27:02,569 --> 03:27:10,569
And what they mean is, what if a sidechain, for instance, a Bitcoin Cash sidechain was actually better than Bitcoin BTC?

2264
03:27:10,569 --> 03:27:14,569
What if more of the mining revenues was coming on the sidechain?

2265
03:27:14,569 --> 03:27:25,569
Like what if it did scale and, you know, in some far future, right, you had like 10x the mining revenue just on the sidechain to the main chain,

2266
03:27:25,569 --> 03:27:27,569
and now you've got the tail wagging the dog.

2267
03:27:27,569 --> 03:27:35,569
And at a certain point, you might be able to make the opposite argument and just say, look, let's fucking ditch this small block main chain.

2268
03:27:35,569 --> 03:27:38,569
Like we'll just do another hard fork and we don't need it anymore.

2269
03:27:38,569 --> 03:27:43,569
So that seems to be why everybody is anxious about it on BTC.

2270
03:27:43,569 --> 03:27:49,569
And also why the BCH side don't really see the utility of joining a large block thing.

2271
03:27:49,569 --> 03:27:59,569
Because if it worked out, it would come around to the same point it's already at, which is that you just don't need the small block sidechain, like main chain plus sidechain.

2272
03:27:59,569 --> 03:28:07,569
Yeah, I think from my earlier question is, is it going to cause dilution?

2273
03:28:07,569 --> 03:28:19,569
And yeah, but it won't, though, because my point right there is, you know, it's going to cause dilution no matter what.

2274
03:28:19,569 --> 03:28:23,569
It's going to cause basically it's just more money printing.

2275
03:28:24,569 --> 03:28:29,569
And right there, that's all I need to hear right there.

2276
03:28:29,569 --> 03:28:36,569
Bitcoin is a revolution. I explained to you earlier that the sidechain shares the monetary policy of the main chain.

2277
03:28:36,569 --> 03:28:38,569
Do you understand what I mean when I say that?

2278
03:28:38,569 --> 03:28:43,569
I do, but only as more or less a gas fee.

2279
03:28:43,569 --> 03:28:50,569
It doesn't prevent dilution. You're just paying it as a gas fee. That's all that is.

2280
03:28:51,569 --> 03:28:55,569
Can I just ask everyone to just not speak?

2281
03:28:55,569 --> 03:29:04,569
Address the last point, which is that the idea that the one chain will displace another chain is not really possible.

2282
03:29:05,569 --> 03:29:14,569
Because the hierarchy of the way it's programmed is that the sidechain nodes, they're exactly like lightning nodes where they don't even exist.

2283
03:29:14,569 --> 03:29:22,569
And they won't even be able to function unless they can find a layer one Bitcoin Core node.

2284
03:29:22,569 --> 03:29:28,569
So the fear that L2 could replace L1 is unfounded and not possible.

2285
03:29:28,569 --> 03:29:33,569
Of course, one thing that is possible is it's possible that L2 chain could be so great.

2286
03:29:33,569 --> 03:29:42,569
I mean, this is the problem. This is the problem, which is that people disagree and then they think I'm right and everyone else is wrong.

2287
03:29:42,569 --> 03:29:48,569
And that is the immaturity that everyone has to retire if they're ever going to understand this idea.

2288
03:29:48,569 --> 03:29:56,569
Because it's possible that in the future, no one will disagree and everyone will say large block ism was the way to go.

2289
03:29:56,569 --> 03:30:03,569
And in that case, it's possible that everyone will switch to one large blocker network.

2290
03:30:03,569 --> 03:30:07,569
But you see, that's kind of assuming the whole game right out of the bag.

2291
03:30:07,569 --> 03:30:14,569
You know, it's just saying everyone is going to know that I'm right and then I'll be right.

2292
03:30:14,569 --> 03:30:20,569
And then everyone will do what I said, which is like, well, that's all well and good if that's the case.

2293
03:30:21,569 --> 03:30:24,569
But what's far more likely is that people will continue to disagree.

2294
03:30:24,569 --> 03:30:32,569
And in fact, I think we can confidently predict that people will only disagree more and more and more and more.

2295
03:30:32,569 --> 03:30:39,569
And some people will actually be adamant that they want the smallest chain possible always and they want no changes to it at all.

2296
03:30:39,569 --> 03:30:45,569
And other people will want infinite block sized things as experiments, some of which may crash and burn.

2297
03:30:45,569 --> 03:30:53,569
And so that last part there of that speech wasn't from the green Bitcoin.

2298
03:30:53,569 --> 03:30:58,569
That was not correct.

2299
03:30:58,569 --> 03:31:04,569
But it is certainly I think there is a part of it that is true, though, and that everyone should probably hear and consider,

2300
03:31:04,569 --> 03:31:12,569
which is that I think part of the opposition to drivechains is the idea that someone could demonstrate an idea.

2301
03:31:12,569 --> 03:31:17,569
They could launch a sidechain that everyone thinks at first won't work, which could be a large block sidechain.

2302
03:31:17,569 --> 03:31:19,569
But it could just be anything like a theorem or whatever.

2303
03:31:19,569 --> 03:31:21,569
It could just be something.

2304
03:31:21,569 --> 03:31:24,569
And people are now thinking, well, I'm already on record.

2305
03:31:24,569 --> 03:31:30,569
I'm on podcasts. I've sent millions of tweets saying that Bitcoin Core is the only good thing.

2306
03:31:30,569 --> 03:31:32,569
And like a theorem is a scam or something.

2307
03:31:33,569 --> 03:31:43,569
If we activate BIP300, then someone does Rootstock or they do a bit Ethereum or they do bit Z cash or they do Bitcoin Cash as a sidechain.

2308
03:31:43,569 --> 03:31:51,569
If they do that and then it's a big success, I'm going to look like such an idiot for opposing this chain back when it was an altcoin.

2309
03:31:51,569 --> 03:31:56,569
And then so I think that that part of it is true.

2310
03:31:56,569 --> 03:32:04,569
The idea that some people are afraid of experimentation because the experiment might be run and it might be a success.

2311
03:32:04,569 --> 03:32:12,569
And then and then everyone who is saying, well, clearly that's a bad idea based on theory will be humiliated.

2312
03:32:12,569 --> 03:32:14,569
So DJ Satoshi had a hand.

2313
03:32:14,569 --> 03:32:16,569
Thanks, Paul. Yeah, I'm just curious.

2314
03:32:16,569 --> 03:32:22,569
So what do you think in a case like is mentioned where there is a big block layer two?

2315
03:32:22,569 --> 03:32:26,569
What do you think the benefit of such would be?

2316
03:32:26,569 --> 03:32:28,569
Well, it has different tradeoffs.

2317
03:32:28,569 --> 03:32:34,569
So, again, people are different, like the coffee transactions are probably fine for the L2.

2318
03:32:34,569 --> 03:32:35,569
You know what I mean?

2319
03:32:35,569 --> 03:32:37,569
Like because this is always people are always talking past each other.

2320
03:32:37,569 --> 03:32:38,569
So what about the coffee transactions?

2321
03:32:38,569 --> 03:32:40,569
How are we going to get?

2322
03:32:40,569 --> 03:32:44,569
I buy coffee with my visa, but this L1 is not going to work for that.

2323
03:32:44,569 --> 03:32:45,569
Therefore, Bitcoin won't work.

2324
03:32:45,569 --> 03:32:51,569
And then people said other on the small block camp, they would say Bitcoin isn't for coffee.

2325
03:32:51,569 --> 03:32:53,569
Bitcoin is for whatever.

2326
03:32:53,569 --> 03:32:58,569
Edward Snowden fleeing the country and uploading important files.

2327
03:32:58,569 --> 03:33:02,569
So my point is, I guess you could use Bitcoin for both things.

2328
03:33:02,569 --> 03:33:05,569
You just you choose the right chain for the job.

2329
03:33:05,569 --> 03:33:13,569
And the large blockchain would have a lot of utility that would otherwise probably have not happened on Bitcoin at all.

2330
03:33:13,569 --> 03:33:16,569
It would probably have been on Visa or custodial thing.

2331
03:33:16,569 --> 03:33:20,569
And so in that way, we're still moving people to the right, which is good.

2332
03:33:20,569 --> 03:33:22,569
We're moving people into Bitcoin.

2333
03:33:22,569 --> 03:33:30,569
You know, if total Bitcoin cypherpunkness is the far right and then total fiatness is the far left, CBDC is whatever is the far left.

2334
03:33:30,569 --> 03:33:33,569
We want to move people further.

2335
03:33:33,569 --> 03:33:40,569
And then my guess is also that it's someone who it's a big ask to ask someone to run a full node of Bitcoin.

2336
03:33:40,569 --> 03:33:45,569
First, it's probably better to ramp them up and say, listen, use Bitcoin for a little bit.

2337
03:33:45,569 --> 03:33:48,569
Oh, Bitcoin is cool. Then they run the SPV wallet.

2338
03:33:48,569 --> 03:33:55,569
Then they then later they run a full node of L1 or they run a full node of L1 and L2.

2339
03:33:55,569 --> 03:33:57,569
And then maybe they switch to L1 later.

2340
03:33:57,569 --> 03:34:01,569
It's better to ramp people up versus give them a big wall.

2341
03:34:01,569 --> 03:34:08,569
Now, I don't know what to do because I was talking to DJ Satoshi and he raised his hand after green Bitcoin.

2342
03:34:08,569 --> 03:34:11,569
And so I don't know if we should do it in order.

2343
03:34:11,569 --> 03:34:14,569
Let's continue the thread.

2344
03:34:14,569 --> 03:34:17,569
I'll just ask real quick, Paul.

2345
03:34:17,569 --> 03:34:21,569
What is it that you're most excited for or want?

2346
03:34:21,569 --> 03:34:24,569
What's the reason you really want BIP300 and BIP301?

2347
03:34:24,569 --> 03:34:34,569
Well, it's no secret that I designed my own blockchain for peer-to-peer Oracle and prediction market thing, which was my original –

2348
03:34:35,569 --> 03:34:42,569
I wouldn't say my original – like I got into Bitcoin separately, but I was interested in prediction markets my entire life.

2349
03:34:42,569 --> 03:34:44,569
And I do think that people will really enjoy this.

2350
03:34:44,569 --> 03:34:46,569
It's very experimental.

2351
03:34:46,569 --> 03:34:49,569
So I thought, well, how can I do this? How do I attach this to Bitcoin?

2352
03:34:49,569 --> 03:34:52,569
And that is how I arrived at the sidechains idea in 2013.

2353
03:34:52,569 --> 03:34:55,569
And that is sort of what motivated me to work on it.

2354
03:34:55,569 --> 03:34:58,569
Originally, it was that I actually built the prediction market sidechain.

2355
03:34:58,569 --> 03:35:04,569
I built the alt chain, like the blockchain first, and then I was trying to attach it to Bitcoin.

2356
03:35:04,569 --> 03:35:08,569
And I discovered the sidechains research, and then I discovered that it was sort of incomplete.

2357
03:35:08,569 --> 03:35:11,569
And this is all like publicly known or whatever.

2358
03:35:11,569 --> 03:35:24,569
But I will say that even though that was how I arrived at this idea, I think I'm more interested today because I see exactly how much disagreement there is.

2359
03:35:25,569 --> 03:35:43,569
And I think that Bitcoin will be – since it relies on network effects, it must have some way of resolving this disagreement if it is to truly become something larger than niche, something that a lot of people really use.

2360
03:35:43,569 --> 03:35:48,569
And people really – I've seen so many people who are really motivated.

2361
03:35:48,569 --> 03:35:51,569
There's a lot of blockchain scammers, but there are a couple people.

2362
03:35:51,569 --> 03:35:57,569
There's five or six people, and they have some really great idea that they really want to bring to the world.

2363
03:35:57,569 --> 03:36:00,569
And I think that these ideas are pretty good.

2364
03:36:00,569 --> 03:36:06,569
And I think it's crazy for us to fraction these all into different altcoin communities that all hate each other.

2365
03:36:06,569 --> 03:36:12,569
But would they actually come and do it on Bitcoin if BIP300 was enabled?

2366
03:36:12,569 --> 03:36:21,569
And also my main question of asking that is what is it that you want BIP300 to be enabled for that's stopping you from continuing to build on Bitcoin right now?

2367
03:36:21,569 --> 03:36:26,569
That's what I mean by why are you so interested in BIP300 and BIP301 being enabled?

2368
03:36:27,569 --> 03:36:42,569
Most of the other L2s, with basically one exception, they require – in order to onboard a new user, you need to first have already done something on L1.

2369
03:36:42,569 --> 03:36:44,569
Every L2 works like that.

2370
03:36:44,569 --> 03:36:49,569
But with BIP300, one person can move the coins over and then onboard people to L2.

2371
03:36:49,569 --> 03:36:52,569
That's one thing that is very different about BIP300.

2372
03:36:53,569 --> 03:36:56,569
It's a hugely different – night and day different from the Lightning Network.

2373
03:36:56,569 --> 03:37:06,569
In fact, if you think that blockchains don't scale and you think – which is the common mantra, then you really think the Lightning Network doesn't scale because to onboard people to the Lightning Network, you need an L1 transaction.

2374
03:37:06,569 --> 03:37:15,569
But if you think that blockchains don't scale, then paradoxically, the large block sidechain is what you think does scale because – but I can get into that if you want.

2375
03:37:15,569 --> 03:37:16,569
It's a little bit of a paradox.

2376
03:37:16,569 --> 03:37:22,569
I would say that's not the main reason, and poor green Bitcoin hand has been up for a long time at this point.

2377
03:37:22,569 --> 03:37:29,569
But I'll say the real reason is that I think one programmer can get a lot done if people get out of their way.

2378
03:37:29,569 --> 03:37:34,569
And I think consensus is actually kind of a bad thing in humans.

2379
03:37:34,569 --> 03:37:36,569
I actually think consensus –

2380
03:37:42,569 --> 03:37:43,569
Uh-oh.

2381
03:37:43,569 --> 03:37:44,569
Did we lose Paul?

2382
03:37:44,569 --> 03:37:45,569
I think we did.

2383
03:37:45,569 --> 03:37:46,569
Okay.

2384
03:37:46,569 --> 03:37:49,569
Paul, try rejoining to get your connection back.

2385
03:37:49,569 --> 03:37:52,569
I guess the consensus didn't warm him up.

2386
03:37:52,569 --> 03:37:55,569
Yeah, Elon Musk, someone is interfering.

2387
03:37:55,569 --> 03:37:57,569
But DJ, you asked a really great question.

2388
03:37:57,569 --> 03:38:00,569
What was his original motivation for creating Drivechain?

2389
03:38:00,569 --> 03:38:11,569
And I think he answered it was HiveMind, formerly called TruthCoin, a fascinating project that you can all read about at BitcoinHiveMind.com or .info.

2390
03:38:11,569 --> 03:38:12,569
I forget which one.

2391
03:38:12,569 --> 03:38:14,569
But you can read the white paper.

2392
03:38:15,569 --> 03:38:16,569
Sorry about that.

2393
03:38:16,569 --> 03:38:19,569
You're backed many times over the last few weeks.

2394
03:38:19,569 --> 03:38:20,569
Sorry about that.

2395
03:38:20,569 --> 03:38:22,569
So I think it was – I don't remember what it was.

2396
03:38:22,569 --> 03:38:23,569
We'll just blame Elon for it.

2397
03:38:23,569 --> 03:38:26,569
People who think in herds, behave in herds, or something like that.

2398
03:38:26,569 --> 03:38:29,569
But it was something like consensus isn't actually good.

2399
03:38:29,569 --> 03:38:33,569
The way – all human progress is with dissent, actually.

2400
03:38:33,569 --> 03:38:39,569
It's some entrepreneur saying the way it's currently done is wrong, and I have a better way.

2401
03:38:39,569 --> 03:38:42,569
And dissent is the key.

2402
03:38:42,569 --> 03:38:43,569
It's not consensus.

2403
03:38:43,569 --> 03:38:53,569
What has unfortunately happened is Bitcoin is consensus software to solve the double spend problem, which is a very narrow technical problem.

2404
03:38:53,569 --> 03:38:56,569
It has nothing to do with human beings disagreeing with each other.

2405
03:38:56,569 --> 03:39:00,569
It is just saying if two transactions are broadcast, which one takes precedence?

2406
03:39:00,569 --> 03:39:07,569
And unfortunately, people have used this word consensus, I think, to give it a little bit more friendliness than it deserves.

2407
03:39:07,569 --> 03:39:10,569
In the real world, there should not be consensus.

2408
03:39:10,569 --> 03:39:12,569
In the real world, we need dissent.

2409
03:39:12,569 --> 03:39:17,569
In the free market, it takes place in the form of entrepreneurship.

2410
03:39:17,569 --> 03:39:26,569
And in politics, it takes the place of two warring political parties that hate each other and want to destroy each other and compete for a government.

2411
03:39:26,569 --> 03:39:28,569
So competition is good for the end user.

2412
03:39:28,569 --> 03:39:31,569
We want competition among many different ideas.

2413
03:39:31,569 --> 03:39:33,569
We want many forms of art.

2414
03:39:34,016 --> 03:39:37,776
We want many ideas about the way the future should be.

2415
03:39:38,896 --> 03:39:44,576
And I think that's really – I had no idea when I designed – I thought when I

2416
03:39:44,576 --> 03:39:48,576
put published Drivechain in November 2015 that people would just see it for what it was,

2417
03:39:48,576 --> 03:39:53,536
which was a solution to their problem. I had no idea that there would be so much of this

2418
03:39:54,176 --> 03:40:01,136
idea that the disagreement is illegitimate. This is a false idea that the disagreement is – a lot

2419
03:40:01,136 --> 03:40:04,575
of people are saying, those large blockers are just wrong, and the large blockers are saying,

2420
03:40:04,575 --> 03:40:10,815
the small blockers are just wrong. And it's very easy to just say, I'm right.

2421
03:40:10,815 --> 03:40:13,455
So is that what it comes down to, then?

2422
03:40:13,455 --> 03:40:15,615
I'm going to give it back to the green. It was a poor green.

2423
03:40:16,655 --> 03:40:20,256
Yeah, no, I know. But the thing is, isn't that what it all comes back down to, then? And I think,

2424
03:40:20,256 --> 03:40:25,696
isn't that what Bob and you kind of had that little debate about, where this all comes back

2425
03:40:25,696 --> 03:40:29,295
down to, is this just another way to get a block size increase on Bitcoin?

2426
03:40:29,376 --> 03:40:33,936
Of course it's not, though, at all. It's a way of giving the people who wanted a block size –

2427
03:40:33,936 --> 03:40:37,536
But then why does it keep coming back to that? Why does it keep coming back to the

2428
03:40:37,536 --> 03:40:39,215
layer two with a bigger block size?

2429
03:40:39,215 --> 03:40:43,776
I think it gives the people who wanted a larger block something that is

2430
03:40:45,056 --> 03:40:49,456
very, very similar and at a cost to them that they probably wouldn't notice.

2431
03:40:50,736 --> 03:40:54,335
Right, but then if that was the case, if Satoshi wanted there to be a big block,

2432
03:40:54,895 --> 03:40:58,016
wouldn't he have originally designed it that way? And the reason that he created

2433
03:40:58,016 --> 03:41:05,376
the consensus mechanism on the original time chain was because he knew that it needs to be

2434
03:41:05,376 --> 03:41:11,696
a small block, otherwise there would be an issue of centralization. And so I think that's the

2435
03:41:11,696 --> 03:41:17,376
biggest problem that most people that I hear have this issue with, right? Because they're saying

2436
03:41:17,376 --> 03:41:19,696
that this is just another way to increase the block size.

2437
03:41:19,696 --> 03:41:27,615
Yeah, but it's not, though, because again, the block size is an L1 node thing. It is not a miner

2438
03:41:27,615 --> 03:41:34,016
thing. The miners have to do all kinds of stuff, that is, they have to run a Bitcoin node and they

2439
03:41:34,016 --> 03:41:35,535
have to do a long list of other things.

2440
03:41:38,096 --> 03:41:43,696
Correct, but the point being is that by enabling 300, then you're enabling a larger block size

2441
03:41:43,696 --> 03:41:45,296
availability on a layer two.

2442
03:41:45,296 --> 03:41:50,975
On L2, but not on L1, but that's the whole point. And I'll talk about Bitcoin in a second,

2443
03:41:50,975 --> 03:41:56,815
but let me finish this one. Satoshi's vision is actually very, is pretty clear that he first

2444
03:41:56,815 --> 03:42:02,815
launched it with no block size. And first, it's clear that at first he had no, he had the

2445
03:42:02,815 --> 03:42:06,895
intention of allowing the block size to grow in an unlimited sense. And he believed in this log

2446
03:42:06,895 --> 03:42:12,175
M scaling of the Merkle tree. And he believed in this Usenet analogy. So at first there was no

2447
03:42:12,175 --> 03:42:17,696
block size at all. And then eventually Satoshi himself, he inserted the block size. And he has

2448
03:42:17,696 --> 03:42:21,856
lots of comments that historians disagree on whether or not he said like, we will remove this

2449
03:42:21,856 --> 03:42:27,776
soon, or we may, we could remove this later if we wanted to. So he later inserted the block size

2450
03:42:27,776 --> 03:42:35,936
limit. And around the time he had done that, it literally within months, he was talking about

2451
03:42:36,576 --> 03:42:44,576
BitDNS, which later became Namecoin and merge mining. So the way it's set up, you have many

2452
03:42:44,576 --> 03:42:48,975
chains that have different block sizes and different fee rates. Right. But then maybe

2453
03:42:49,056 --> 03:42:51,296
with that logic, it might be right.

2454
03:42:51,296 --> 03:42:53,056
Is exactly what he advocated for.

2455
03:42:53,696 --> 03:42:59,296
Correct. But, but Paul, shouldn't we first fill the current block size before we go ahead and

2456
03:42:59,296 --> 03:43:04,416
increase it and then make it so that it's basically potentially unlimited block size and therefore

2457
03:43:04,416 --> 03:43:05,936
like unlimited centralization?

2458
03:43:05,936 --> 03:43:11,296
The price has been full many, on many occasions. And then it's because people don't like the fees,

2459
03:43:11,936 --> 03:43:16,416
the fee rate goes up, they, they stop transacting as much and then it slightly unfills.

2460
03:43:17,375 --> 03:43:21,296
Right. But that's my point is that there just isn't enough use yet.

2461
03:43:21,296 --> 03:43:22,416
DJ.

2462
03:43:22,416 --> 03:43:22,895
DJ.

2463
03:43:22,895 --> 03:43:23,696
Yeah. I'll stop.

2464
03:43:23,696 --> 03:43:27,296
I thought it was unfair to the other people. We did have two hands while we were speaking that

2465
03:43:27,296 --> 03:43:29,375
went up and then timed out, I think.

2466
03:43:29,375 --> 03:43:33,535
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's okay. We'll let the, we'll let the, yeah, we'll let the guy go.

2467
03:43:33,535 --> 03:43:36,735
Sorry about that. It's just, I think this is very interesting. And I think that like,

2468
03:43:37,296 --> 03:43:39,936
this is kind of getting to the root of the, of the problem here.

2469
03:43:40,815 --> 03:43:45,455
It is. And that's the ironic thing about it. I don't know if DJ Satoshi knows this, but what

2470
03:43:45,455 --> 03:43:51,296
they're saying is the same debate that we've had from 2015 to 2017. Well, we'll let the blocks get

2471
03:43:51,296 --> 03:43:56,495
full. They did get full. The fees went up, people moved into altcoins. Then it happened in the next

2472
03:43:56,495 --> 03:44:02,416
bull run, the kind of the exact same thing. And the, it was hitting on a very valuable point to

2473
03:44:02,416 --> 03:44:07,456
say that the reason that large block size is the number one thing that everyone wants to discuss

2474
03:44:07,456 --> 03:44:12,655
about drivechains. Although I know Paul likes a Monero sidechain as well, too. I think that

2475
03:44:12,655 --> 03:44:17,215
would be pretty cool. But the reason everybody keeps coming back to large blocks is because that

2476
03:44:17,215 --> 03:44:23,856
is the one critical unsolved issue of the community picking wrong back in the day. And you said, Paul,

2477
03:44:23,856 --> 03:44:29,935
that you don't think there's a scenario where the large block sidechain came to replace the

2478
03:44:29,935 --> 03:44:34,736
small block sidechain because the small block nodes, you know, can ignore it. And I agree with

2479
03:44:34,736 --> 03:44:41,696
that. But what you're missing is that it could happen because the clout is really what matters,

2480
03:44:41,696 --> 03:44:48,016
right? Let's say if of the 21 million bitcoins, let's say the large block sidechain was so

2481
03:44:48,016 --> 03:44:54,416
successful that 16 million of the 21 million bitcoins moved onto the large block sidechain.

2482
03:44:54,416 --> 03:45:00,095
Well, then you'd be in a position where the large block sidechain devs, whoever they were,

2483
03:45:00,095 --> 03:45:05,535
would have more clout than Bitcoin Core. And they could say, look, screw Bitcoin Core. We're just

2484
03:45:05,535 --> 03:45:10,655
going to fork the network. We're going to just, you know, delete the, we're going to change drive

2485
03:45:10,655 --> 03:45:15,136
chains or whatever. And we're going to swap it around. So we're now the layer one and the side

2486
03:45:15,136 --> 03:45:21,616
block, the small block is the layer two, right? And if you had 16 million or 18 million or,

2487
03:45:21,616 --> 03:45:27,215
you know, any amount of coins or clout at a certain point, if 95% of people are on the

2488
03:45:27,215 --> 03:45:32,255
large block sidechain, then they would be the ones driving the ship. That's how it would go

2489
03:45:32,255 --> 03:45:38,255
down. And that fear is within the psychology of the small blockers that you're trying to convince

2490
03:45:38,255 --> 03:45:41,055
of this idea, which is why they're not having it.

2491
03:45:42,416 --> 03:45:46,176
Well, I think you might be right about that being a fear that people have,

2492
03:45:46,176 --> 03:45:51,696
but I think it's not actually a very realistic scenario. I mean, there's many cases, like if,

2493
03:45:51,696 --> 03:45:57,775
what if you own a restaurant and you, you serve, I don't know, whatever, I'm honestly don't,

2494
03:45:57,775 --> 03:46:04,896
you serve chicken Parmesan and, and that you, and you make whatever, a hundred dollars a night

2495
03:46:05,856 --> 03:46:12,896
selling chicken Parmesan. And then one day you decide to sell pizza and then you sell whatever

2496
03:46:12,896 --> 03:46:21,296
it is, 16 out of 21, 16, 21st of the, of the people coming in, you open like a new, you have

2497
03:46:21,296 --> 03:46:25,935
a pizza, you put chicken parm and pizzeria and you sell just as much chicken parm as before.

2498
03:46:28,176 --> 03:46:34,655
But you also now sell a lot of pizza and eventually you sell more pizza. You get more money coming

2499
03:46:34,655 --> 03:46:40,095
from pizza than chicken parm. In the scenario of a restaurant, you might say, well, I'm not

2500
03:46:40,095 --> 03:46:45,935
going to serve chicken parm anymore. But I think in the, the real analogy is just, am I still making

2501
03:46:45,935 --> 03:46:52,896
money? I don't make a profit from selling chicken parm the same way I make a profit from selling

2502
03:46:52,896 --> 03:46:57,696
pizza. And if so, you would just continue to do both. You just say, well, I get, I, this is the

2503
03:46:57,696 --> 03:47:03,856
thing that I do. I make a lot of money doing both things. I think the sidechain world is the world

2504
03:47:03,856 --> 03:47:10,176
that protects the L1. If in a world where the large block, some kind of large block altcoin

2505
03:47:10,176 --> 03:47:18,016
takes over, the L1 is destroyed completely. In a world where the L1, there's like some kind of

2506
03:47:18,016 --> 03:47:24,576
competing hard fork, then the L1 is destroyed. So really drivechain is protecting the L1 the,

2507
03:47:24,576 --> 03:47:31,616
to the best extent it can. The scenario where BIP300 never activates and large block turns

2508
03:47:31,616 --> 03:47:39,535
out to be so outrageously popular, then I think that's terrible news for small block L1 BTC,

2509
03:47:39,535 --> 03:47:45,616
which would probably just be completely replaced and obliterated by then. I think the clout point

2510
03:47:45,616 --> 03:47:50,095
is important. And like I mentioned already, some people would be maybe humiliated or embarrassed.

2511
03:47:51,616 --> 03:47:58,176
But again, I don't think that, like, what reason do they have for getting rid of the small

2512
03:47:58,176 --> 03:48:03,696
blockchain if there's 4 million coins there? Like, what's the, what's the reason?

2513
03:48:07,136 --> 03:48:10,495
Well, it doesn't matter. Well, it could be, it could be anything, you know, we can't predict

2514
03:48:10,495 --> 03:48:15,295
the future. So we can't know what, what people are doing. But the reason this pushback is there

2515
03:48:15,295 --> 03:48:23,696
is, is because of this thing. I think that's a little bit mean though, because I think that it's

2516
03:48:23,776 --> 03:48:31,456
like, it goes something like this. The, the people, like, in a world of sidechains,

2517
03:48:31,456 --> 03:48:35,776
everyone can have whatever chain they like. So why is any chain getting destroyed?

2518
03:48:39,055 --> 03:48:44,336
Well, this is what, this is what I'm saying is, I think drivechains would be a great upgrade

2519
03:48:44,336 --> 03:48:49,615
to BTC. But I know that the current people who are, you know, in the, in the community,

2520
03:48:49,615 --> 03:48:53,935
you have clout, who maybe have most of the coins, you have most of the access to development,

2521
03:48:53,935 --> 03:48:58,096
they're worried about getting out-competed. And that's, that's why they're never going to allow

2522
03:48:58,096 --> 03:49:04,415
this. Yeah, the clout part of your point, I think is right. Whereas right now, the, the big devs,

2523
03:49:05,055 --> 03:49:10,735
or big people in BTC, they get invited to the conferences, they get on the main stage,

2524
03:49:11,456 --> 03:49:15,935
they get VC money, they get people buying them nice plane tickets around the world,

2525
03:49:16,656 --> 03:49:23,055
they get attention, they get people flattering them. And they will be huge losers in a world

2526
03:49:23,055 --> 03:49:28,735
where there's competition. Because especially if they compete and lose, that would be worse.

2527
03:49:28,735 --> 03:49:32,896
But just to have any competition at all, would be bad. So I guess I agree with you about,

2528
03:49:33,855 --> 03:49:36,336
about that. But now let's go to Bitcoin Revolution hand.

2529
03:49:37,055 --> 03:49:45,136
So why haven't you implemented on Bitcoin SV or Bitcoin Cash as a proof of concept? Like,

2530
03:49:45,136 --> 03:49:51,536
yep, this is working. Like, I would be willing to do that. But I don't. Like, that's sort of up to

2531
03:49:51,536 --> 03:49:54,735
them. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not really a member of those communities, per se. If people

2532
03:49:54,735 --> 03:49:59,216
message me, and they say, there has there has been someone, someone did it in an altcoin.

2533
03:49:59,696 --> 03:50:04,815
And luckily, for me, which I support, they did it, they gave it with a funny name that doesn't

2534
03:50:04,815 --> 03:50:10,976
take itself too seriously, which I really like about it. So that way, it's not too. It's just

2535
03:50:10,976 --> 03:50:18,735
sort of fun. It's called altcoin version of BIP300. And I don't know, like, I honestly don't

2536
03:50:18,735 --> 03:50:23,055
know that much about, but they hang out in the drivechain group, and they are very,

2537
03:50:23,375 --> 03:50:27,776
but they hang out in the drivechain group, and they are very, they're fond enough. And so,

2538
03:50:27,776 --> 03:50:33,375
so I would be totally in favor of activating BIP300 and other things, such as Litecoin. But I

2539
03:50:33,375 --> 03:50:38,976
think, I don't know how much it would prove because the point of BIP300 is to solve the

2540
03:50:38,976 --> 03:50:47,136
problem of altcoins, and to have small block L1, optional large block L2s. So to have it on Bitcoin

2541
03:50:47,536 --> 03:50:53,456
is perplexing, because you already have large block L1. And so putting a small block L2 doesn't

2542
03:50:53,456 --> 03:50:57,855
really make much sense, because the L2 requires the L1 node, as I said, like a couple comments ago.

2543
03:50:59,216 --> 03:51:02,976
It doesn't really make sense to have a small block L2 on top of a large block L1.

2544
03:51:02,976 --> 03:51:07,456
It makes a tiny amount of sense. But really, in principle, it's bizarre. It's like saying that

2545
03:51:07,456 --> 03:51:14,415
you have, you have an air conditioner and a heater. But like, do I have an air conditioner

2546
03:51:14,415 --> 03:51:18,175
and a heater, but you live in like Antarctica or something. It's like when a clown rides a

2547
03:51:18,175 --> 03:51:26,096
little bicycle. It's lopsided that way. Right. So we want to preserve small block L1 forever.

2548
03:51:26,656 --> 03:51:31,696
That way, people who want only that can get only that. The problem with the large block

2549
03:51:32,415 --> 03:51:38,896
forks of Bitcoin is that everyone who uses those has to like large blocks.

2550
03:51:39,696 --> 03:51:45,615
So that's why drivechain is great, is because you can opt into a sidechain or not. You don't

2551
03:51:45,615 --> 03:51:50,096
have to use any sidechain ever. So if you like Bitcoin the way it is, you just keep on

2552
03:51:50,096 --> 03:51:56,495
sticking with that. Okay, let's go to TechMix's hand. And if people have more things to say,

2553
03:51:56,495 --> 03:51:59,295
just keep raising your hand and I'll try to remember what order they were on.

2554
03:51:59,295 --> 03:52:10,815
Hello, can you hear me? Yeah. Okay. Thank you for the discussions. I've been

2555
03:52:11,935 --> 03:52:15,456
following this for some time. I really appreciate these series of talks.

2556
03:52:16,576 --> 03:52:23,776
I just wanted to share that, well, I don't see the drivechain's proposals like

2557
03:52:24,016 --> 03:52:29,295
a merely as a tool to increase the throughput of transactions, but

2558
03:52:31,536 --> 03:52:37,696
I want to look at it as a way, like an alternative way to do two-way pegs,

2559
03:52:37,696 --> 03:52:48,495
basically through some sort of a hashrate scroll. So my question is that, could you

2560
03:52:49,375 --> 03:52:59,216
maybe outline some of the benefits or downsides of drivechains in comparison to other

2561
03:53:01,216 --> 03:53:13,536
two-way peg proposals, such as CTV or APO? Because to me, drivechains are these safe

2562
03:53:13,536 --> 03:53:21,216
covenants that, like for example, there's always this condition inside CTV that you can

2563
03:53:22,096 --> 03:53:33,536
bring out your money and come back to L1. So yeah, I just wanted to know your opinion on this.

2564
03:53:34,735 --> 03:53:41,935
Thanks. Yeah, sure. So I mean, I don't see CTV and APO as two-way pegs, but at this point,

2565
03:53:41,935 --> 03:53:50,735
the definitions are sort of anyone's game. It's a free-for-all, I think. But CTV is, I think,

2566
03:53:50,735 --> 03:53:58,016
something that is, I think it's a very good idea and we should activate it. And what you now see

2567
03:53:58,016 --> 03:54:05,216
is that no one ever actually had, you see the politics at work, because Jeremy Rubin had this

2568
03:54:05,216 --> 03:54:09,935
idea and then everyone hated it, and then now they've decided they don't like it.

2569
03:54:10,016 --> 03:54:16,976
So it's kind of, you see how arbitrary it is. So preview of coming attraction for all other BIPs,

2570
03:54:16,976 --> 03:54:22,096
you know, basically including this one, because people hate it for no reason.

2571
03:54:22,896 --> 03:54:28,976
They kind of throw up a big fight about it. But I mean, downsides of drivechain,

2572
03:54:30,656 --> 03:54:34,175
drivechain doesn't really compare necessarily to those things, but drivechain does have

2573
03:54:34,175 --> 03:54:40,175
downsides. One is that, like anything, it's kind of hard to test drivechain and like,

2574
03:54:40,175 --> 03:54:45,295
similar with taproot, you don't really know exactly what the demand out there is,

2575
03:54:45,295 --> 03:54:50,976
how popular will it be. But there are some clues, which is like wrapped Bitcoin on ETH being

2576
03:54:51,696 --> 03:54:56,336
five, six billion dollars, which is 40 times the size of the Lightning Network.

2577
03:54:57,295 --> 03:55:04,976
That's a clue. The coin market cap being more value being in altcoins than in BTC.

2578
03:55:06,175 --> 03:55:13,055
BTC dominance index being below 50%. That is another clue. The fees on Ethereum being

2579
03:55:13,615 --> 03:55:20,415
50 times the Bitcoin fees. That's another clue. All the different things that people invent,

2580
03:55:20,415 --> 03:55:24,735
but they can't really try or they're afraid. I think the slowed Bitcoin development process

2581
03:55:24,735 --> 03:55:30,415
that seems to be making nobody happy. That is another clue. So yeah, there's no guarantee that

2582
03:55:30,415 --> 03:55:35,776
people will actually like this idea or that it will work. This idea aims to maximize,

2583
03:55:36,656 --> 03:55:42,016
this idea aims to maximize the flexibility of L2. You can write any software you want,

2584
03:55:42,016 --> 03:55:45,136
it can be in a completely different programming language, it can be in Rust,

2585
03:55:45,136 --> 03:55:52,415
it can be in JavaScript, it can be in whatever. Basic, you can write it in,

2586
03:55:53,136 --> 03:56:00,415
you can write whatever you like. It aims to maximize that and it aims to hold firm to the

2587
03:56:00,415 --> 03:56:06,976
idea that the L1 should be unaffected by what happens on L2. So those are the two design

2588
03:56:06,976 --> 03:56:13,456
criteria. As a result, it introduces the ability for miners to just take all the coins in the

2589
03:56:13,456 --> 03:56:19,456
chain. But I've never really been that worried about this because even though it is a problem,

2590
03:56:20,336 --> 03:56:26,016
it's the same problem that exists everywhere. The miners really can hold any UTXO hostage and they

2591
03:56:26,016 --> 03:56:32,415
can hold Lightning Network funds hostage, they can hold ZK-SNARK proofs hostage. So that kind of has

2592
03:56:32,415 --> 03:56:36,495
always been the case and it always will be. And if you believe in proof of work, then that's just

2593
03:56:36,495 --> 03:56:43,295
sort of what's happening. The incentives are supposed to be aligned so that in order to steal

2594
03:56:43,295 --> 03:56:51,456
money from the VIV300 sidechain, the miners have to broadcast this code that is obviously wrong,

2595
03:56:51,456 --> 03:56:55,696
where the sidechain has been screaming for three months a certain code and the codes don't match

2596
03:56:55,696 --> 03:57:00,175
and then they have to keep this going. Day after day, block after block, they have to keep this

2597
03:57:00,175 --> 03:57:08,336
going where it just doesn't match. The stigma alone would, I think, be palpable. And so it's

2598
03:57:08,336 --> 03:57:13,616
a situation where the miners really cannot take coins unless they are really giving a hard thumbs

2599
03:57:13,616 --> 03:57:19,376
down to this whole idea. But I think there's a good reason. By this whole idea, I mean the

2600
03:57:19,376 --> 03:57:24,496
sidechain idea. But I think there's pretty good reasons to imagine that the idea is a good idea,

2601
03:57:24,496 --> 03:57:29,295
which is that people release all these different chains, the miners would get money, they farm the

2602
03:57:29,295 --> 03:57:36,815
chains for all this ongoing stream of transaction fee revenue, and the coin, you know, the Bitcoin

2603
03:57:36,895 --> 03:57:47,456
coin is gaining value as it obtains new abilities. So I personally think the downside is very low.

2604
03:57:47,456 --> 03:57:52,096
The risk is very low. You can turn the software on, you can turn VIV300 on with a soft fork and

2605
03:57:52,096 --> 03:58:00,256
then later on just disable that opcode with a soft fork. So the risks are basically zero.

2606
03:58:00,976 --> 03:58:07,295
Whereas in contrast, I think the risks of not doing this are pretty high, honestly,

2607
03:58:07,295 --> 03:58:12,736
because I just think we're all, we live in a toxic world instead of the fun, creative world.

2608
03:58:14,096 --> 03:58:17,535
We live in a world where everything's split into their own altcoins, so we have a lot of

2609
03:58:17,535 --> 03:58:25,616
pointless competition on variables that are not the core feature. We want to live in a world

2610
03:58:25,616 --> 03:58:31,376
where people compete on only the core feature. So it's the sidechain world lets you compete

2611
03:58:32,976 --> 03:58:40,655
large block versus small block and nothing else. And so then you have a merit, that is a meritocracy

2612
03:58:40,655 --> 03:58:44,415
of those two things. And of course, it's not necessarily that this shouldn't have to be one

2613
03:58:44,415 --> 03:58:49,696
size fits all, because as I've been repeating, people are different and transactions are

2614
03:58:49,696 --> 03:58:56,895
different. The coffee transaction is not the same as the, I'm saving my money, I'm hiding my money

2615
03:58:56,895 --> 03:59:01,295
from the North Koreans and I'm on the run and they're trying, they have my family at gunpoint

2616
03:59:01,295 --> 03:59:08,015
and whatever. It's not the same scenario. So I just don't, I don't particularly see, I think we

2617
03:59:08,015 --> 03:59:11,856
should certainly try this as soon as possible. And then if this doesn't work, we would learn a lot

2618
03:59:11,856 --> 03:59:18,415
about what to try next. I think that that's the way to go. And I think that, so I can talk more

2619
03:59:18,415 --> 03:59:26,256
about CTV and APO later, but maybe we should go to bitcode hand. Yeah, I want to ask Paul something

2620
03:59:26,256 --> 03:59:28,576
and make a point.

2621
03:59:29,144 --> 03:59:32,304
Why drivechains are important to be enabled.

2622
03:59:34,584 --> 03:59:39,824
May I ask you, do you have this kind of a concept for sidechains?

2623
03:59:39,824 --> 03:59:47,424
Or I understand that even smart contracts are like a lower level from a sidechains,

2624
03:59:47,424 --> 03:59:52,624
but in a concept is kind of, you know, can match or be similar.

2625
03:59:52,624 --> 04:00:03,624
Do you have this idea, because you started this in 2013 and I know that even Satoshi supported some kind of project

2626
04:00:03,624 --> 04:00:08,624
that wanted to enable smart contracts on Bitcoin.

2627
04:00:08,624 --> 04:00:20,624
Do you had this idea first? It's not that you was a first or second, but I want to make a point that if you started in 2013

2628
04:00:21,624 --> 04:00:32,624
and the Bitcoin community looked more in details about this idea and implemented in the early days,

2629
04:00:32,624 --> 04:00:45,624
then even what you said, in addition to what you were talking about, the market cap of Bitcoin would be the whole total market cap of crypto today

2630
04:00:45,624 --> 04:00:50,624
and not diluted to other chains and, you know, other altcoins.

2631
04:00:50,624 --> 04:01:00,624
And another thing is I can tell you that your idea is proving and it's already proven because exists another blockchain,

2632
04:01:00,624 --> 04:01:05,624
which is in altcoins, that it's very similar to sidechains.

2633
04:01:05,624 --> 04:01:14,624
It has the layer one, which is, you know, the security, the centralization and stuff like that.

2634
04:01:14,624 --> 04:01:32,624
And then has the similar product or way to bring, you know, entrepreneurs or companies or anything to create sidechain or they call a different name.

2635
04:01:32,624 --> 04:01:42,623
So as I know, and I follow this and I compare that, why I want to say this, because Bitcoin community and this is mostly for the Maxis,

2636
04:01:42,623 --> 04:01:48,623
because, you know, they probably want only the price to go up.

2637
04:01:48,623 --> 04:01:57,623
And this is the solution for everybody, for everything, for small block, big blocks and et cetera, et cetera.

2638
04:01:57,623 --> 04:02:02,623
So that was my question. And I want to make this comment.

2639
04:02:03,623 --> 04:02:16,623
Do you have this concept of idea first in overall before Vitalik coming with Ethereum and all others and all forks?

2640
04:02:16,623 --> 04:02:25,623
Because when I was reading your blogs, I went back to your first blog and I said, like, oh, my God,

2641
04:02:25,623 --> 04:02:36,623
this guy probably came first with this concept of kind of having sidechains or smart contracts on Bitcoin.

2642
04:02:36,623 --> 04:02:42,623
Yeah, a lot of in fact, a lot of the stuff that I wrote about was later taken by Ethereum.

2643
04:02:42,623 --> 04:02:49,623
And I think that this is not really an exception, although, of course, Ethereum was doing lots of trial and error.

2644
04:02:50,623 --> 04:02:56,623
But yeah, it's certainly the case that Ethereum was exploring an idea called sharding around the time of the block size war.

2645
04:02:56,623 --> 04:03:00,623
And actually Vlad Zamfir spoke at Scaling One in Montreal.

2646
04:03:00,623 --> 04:03:08,623
And I spoke about like measuring. Well, it doesn't really matter, but you can look it up and it's all recorded.

2647
04:03:08,623 --> 04:03:10,623
And I encourage everyone to do that because it's very neat.

2648
04:03:10,623 --> 04:03:21,623
But what I'm driving at is that Vitalik and I, you can even actually go to Truthcoin was the name of the peer to peer Oracle thing for Bitcoin.

2649
04:03:21,623 --> 04:03:29,623
So this was a long it was from a time before even there were altcoins that had the little blank coin name.

2650
04:03:29,623 --> 04:03:32,623
It was a long time before that. So I just thought Truthcoin.

2651
04:03:32,623 --> 04:03:36,623
I was like, this is a funny reference to Bitcoin. And then people won't have to spell my name.

2652
04:03:36,623 --> 04:03:43,623
So that's why I think this is one of the things that has held this idea back is that the Twitter handle is a Truthcoin.

2653
04:03:43,623 --> 04:03:46,624
And it looks like an altcoin or something, but people can't really spell my name.

2654
04:03:46,624 --> 04:03:49,624
So it's kind of the problem of having a bad name.

2655
04:03:49,624 --> 04:03:53,624
I could have had a maybe I could have picked a different name or something, but I don't really care now at this point.

2656
04:03:53,624 --> 04:04:01,624
So anyway. So, yeah, I started with lots of different ideas and many of them.

2657
04:04:01,624 --> 04:04:11,624
Vitalik was posting on the Truthcoin. I had a Truthcoin talk forum in 2014 and plenty of people from Ethereum were there and we exchanged lots of ideas.

2658
04:04:11,624 --> 04:04:18,624
And the sidechain, I think the drivechain idea made its way into Ethereum and it took various forms.

2659
04:04:18,624 --> 04:04:27,624
Some of those forms were not good. So I think the wormhole one was that was where it only took two hours to instead of three months like what I had.

2660
04:04:28,624 --> 04:04:33,624
And then people just drained that. There was like a hack of millions of dollars worth of ETH or something.

2661
04:04:33,624 --> 04:04:41,624
So they had like various versions of it. And I think they trial and error have indeed approximated it.

2662
04:04:41,624 --> 04:04:45,624
And yeah, lots of people. Vitalik actually hangs out on the drivechain.

2663
04:04:45,624 --> 04:04:54,624
I don't know how active he is recently, but he hangs out in the drivechain telegram and you just control F and you can find it's all real.

2664
04:04:55,624 --> 04:05:04,624
So I think there was lots of sharing of the ideas. I certainly think I came up with mine all by myself from first principles.

2665
04:05:04,624 --> 04:05:13,624
So if that makes them first, then that makes them first. But I think there was something else.

2666
04:05:13,624 --> 04:05:16,624
Didn't you say something else after that about the.

2667
04:05:18,624 --> 04:05:28,624
Yeah, one of the forks from Bitcoin after 2017, which I'm giving the timeline and you can check that on Reddit and exist.

2668
04:05:28,624 --> 04:05:38,624
I think it was a Bitcoin ABC. And after that, they created Avalanche. So Avalanche is multi chain.

2669
04:05:39,624 --> 04:05:46,624
I was talking about monolith and multi chain. So they scale horizontally and also they have subnets.

2670
04:05:46,624 --> 04:05:50,624
Subnets are specific application blockchains.

2671
04:05:54,624 --> 04:05:59,624
I think it's a pretty straightforward idea because on the blockchain, everyone has to agree about everything.

2672
04:05:59,624 --> 04:06:05,624
But obviously people don't like that type of thing all the time because, you know, it's like only one person.

2673
04:06:05,624 --> 04:06:10,624
Only one group is going to get what they want. So the smart thing is to try to give every group what they want.

2674
04:06:12,624 --> 04:06:18,624
Yeah, yeah. But it's a good example that this way of.

2675
04:06:19,624 --> 04:06:28,624
Because I see is very, very big similarities between drivechain and this product, which Avalanche has.

2676
04:06:29,624 --> 04:06:33,624
And like you can see if you research, you can see who is coming to them.

2677
04:06:33,624 --> 04:06:47,624
They are not promoting this product. The companies, the big companies, AWS, Alibaba, Tencent, the biggest insurance companies in the world for settlement transactions.

2678
04:06:47,624 --> 04:06:59,624
They all come to this concept, which tells you that it tells you that, you know, Bitcoin need this way back, not now, even way back.

2679
04:07:01,624 --> 04:07:08,624
Yeah, I think if we had had it way, way back, as I discussed earlier in the space, I think things would have been different.

2680
04:07:08,624 --> 04:07:10,624
We would have 100 percent of the crypto market cap.

2681
04:07:11,624 --> 04:07:19,624
And in fact, we Bitcoin basically did for a while. It was 95, 96 percent, which was very, very healthy.

2682
04:07:20,624 --> 04:07:24,624
Everything else was just like a more overtly an experiment.

2683
04:07:24,624 --> 04:07:27,624
And in fact, it was acknowledged that way. And that was kind of a good thing for everyone.

2684
04:07:28,624 --> 04:07:35,624
And it was not until Bitcoin didn't like plummet in terms of what is today called the Bitcoin dominance index.

2685
04:07:36,624 --> 04:07:38,624
Ethereum was like one percent of BTC or something.

2686
04:07:39,624 --> 04:07:47,624
And there were plenty of other things that were also tiny, tiny things, even things that were relatively big, bit shares, NXT, whatever.

2687
04:07:49,624 --> 04:07:54,624
There were all these different coins of which many were very, very small and some were big.

2688
04:07:55,624 --> 04:07:58,624
And by big, I mean they were like one percent of Bitcoin or less.

2689
04:07:59,624 --> 04:08:01,623
But then Ethereum shot onto the scene.

2690
04:08:02,623 --> 04:08:08,623
And that was not until the scaling debate had really become like a kind of crisis.

2691
04:08:09,623 --> 04:08:15,623
And I think it's not a coincidence. I think it's exactly what happened where it was like Bitcoin is just going to destroy everything.

2692
04:08:16,623 --> 04:08:19,623
There were like Michael Saylor's of Bitcoin back then.

2693
04:08:19,623 --> 04:08:21,623
And they were like Bitcoin success is preordained.

2694
04:08:22,623 --> 04:08:25,623
It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when we're going to destroy everything in our path.

2695
04:08:25,623 --> 04:08:26,623
And it's a runaway train.

2696
04:08:26,623 --> 04:08:27,623
It's a runaway train.

2697
04:08:28,623 --> 04:08:32,623
And then the block size debate happened and scaling one was September 2015.

2698
04:08:33,623 --> 04:08:34,623
Scaling two was December 2015.

2699
04:08:35,623 --> 04:08:38,623
There was the agreement that SegWit was the way to go.

2700
04:08:39,623 --> 04:08:45,623
And it would be April 1st was this like date that someone picked out of a hat somehow.

2701
04:08:46,623 --> 04:08:47,623
April 1st, 2016.

2702
04:08:48,623 --> 04:08:49,623
And that deadline kind of came and went.

2703
04:08:49,623 --> 04:08:56,623
And it became very obvious that in the Bitcoin community, there was a very serious disagreement among lots of very serious people who are all not happy.

2704
04:08:57,623 --> 04:09:01,623
And that was the moment when people thought, well, maybe Bitcoin doesn't have it all figured out.

2705
04:09:02,623 --> 04:09:03,623
Maybe the success is not inevitable.

2706
04:09:04,623 --> 04:09:07,623
And that's when Ethereum broke out onto the scene.

2707
04:09:08,623 --> 04:09:09,623
It became like one third of Bitcoin.

2708
04:09:10,623 --> 04:09:11,623
It was a huge difference.

2709
04:09:12,623 --> 04:09:17,623
This created all this anxiety and it was a kind of self-reinforcing spiral to some extent.

2710
04:09:18,623 --> 04:09:22,623
So I agree with that about it would be much better to have it the whole time.

2711
04:09:23,623 --> 04:09:26,623
I think we should now go to Bitcoin revolution hand.

2712
04:09:29,623 --> 04:09:31,623
Actually, DJ had his hand up before me.

2713
04:09:31,623 --> 04:09:32,623
I'll wait for DJ.

2714
04:09:33,623 --> 04:09:34,623
Sure.

2715
04:09:34,623 --> 04:09:35,623
Thanks.

2716
04:09:35,623 --> 04:09:36,623
I'll go real quick.

2717
04:09:36,623 --> 04:09:40,623
This is just a question that I think a lot of people have.

2718
04:09:41,623 --> 04:09:46,623
Is there a different way to accomplish the same goals, the 300 and 301?

2719
04:09:47,623 --> 04:09:48,623
Are proposing.

2720
04:09:50,623 --> 04:09:51,623
Well, that's a very good question.

2721
04:09:52,623 --> 04:09:57,623
And I honestly think the answer is no, because I put all the pieces there for like some reason.

2722
04:09:57,623 --> 04:10:03,623
And I think people misunderstand a lot of what I was trying to accomplish.

2723
04:10:03,623 --> 04:10:10,623
And I think it's just that I think it's just misunderstandings that drive people's tinkering with it.

2724
04:10:10,623 --> 04:10:12,623
But I think it must be possible.

2725
04:10:12,623 --> 04:10:15,623
But let me reset and tell you what I'm getting at, which is.

2726
04:10:16,623 --> 04:10:23,623
The sidechain idea relies on the SPV proof concept, which is.

2727
04:10:25,623 --> 04:10:33,623
Saying that we know is all about separating L1 and L2 costs, as I've been repeating this whole time.

2728
04:10:33,623 --> 04:10:39,623
So it's saying we don't want the L1 to process the sidechains blocks.

2729
04:10:42,623 --> 04:10:43,623
Or its messages.

2730
04:10:43,623 --> 04:10:45,623
We leave that up to the sidechain.

2731
04:10:45,623 --> 04:10:48,623
You can make a ZCast sidechain and put ZCast blocks, blah, blah, blah.

2732
04:10:48,623 --> 04:10:50,623
So that part's easy.

2733
04:10:51,623 --> 04:10:55,623
However, the L1 can't process nothing.

2734
04:10:56,623 --> 04:11:01,623
If the L1 processes nothing new, then the two-way peg will never work.

2735
04:11:01,623 --> 04:11:05,623
The two-way peg is about sending coins in over there and then sending them back.

2736
04:11:05,623 --> 04:11:08,623
So you need to have something to do the withdrawals.

2737
04:11:08,623 --> 04:11:11,623
And the idea of sidechains that Blockstream came up with.

2738
04:11:11,623 --> 04:11:14,623
And they are correctly so and ingeniously so.

2739
04:11:15,623 --> 04:11:18,623
And that other people came up with, I'm sure, on Bitcoin Talk.

2740
04:11:18,623 --> 04:11:22,623
And there's a thread, December 2013, about two-way peg that I think people can look up.

2741
04:11:22,623 --> 04:11:26,623
And you can look up old Bitcoin wizards, IRC logs, if you're interested in this.

2742
04:11:26,623 --> 04:11:31,623
But the idea is it's possible.

2743
04:11:31,623 --> 04:11:34,623
And Bitcoin has SPV mode where each header is 80 bytes.

2744
04:11:34,623 --> 04:11:38,623
And independent of what's happening in the block, you can prove the work with the header.

2745
04:11:39,623 --> 04:11:42,623
And so the idea of sidechains is the SPV proof.

2746
04:11:43,623 --> 04:11:44,623
That is the idea.

2747
04:11:44,623 --> 04:11:49,623
And that means that basically the sidechain idea is a miner courtesy.

2748
04:11:49,623 --> 04:11:56,623
The proof of work will be able to determine the summary of the sidechain that is brought to L1,

2749
04:11:56,623 --> 04:11:58,623
which is the withdrawal transaction.

2750
04:11:58,623 --> 04:11:59,623
Is this making any sense?

2751
04:11:59,623 --> 04:12:01,623
Because I feel like I'm going through a lot of very bizarre things.

2752
04:12:01,623 --> 04:12:03,623
Is that making sense so far?

2753
04:12:03,623 --> 04:12:04,623
Yep, yep.

2754
04:12:04,623 --> 04:12:09,623
So the miners have the overt kind of control over the summary.

2755
04:12:10,623 --> 04:12:16,623
Now, as I've been saying this whole time, the miners kind of always have a significant amount of control.

2756
04:12:16,623 --> 04:12:18,623
They can always veto messages and things.

2757
04:12:18,623 --> 04:12:19,623
So they can always hold things hostage.

2758
04:12:19,623 --> 04:12:21,623
And so they have kind of a lot of control.

2759
04:12:21,623 --> 04:12:23,623
So I was never really worried about that, per se.

2760
04:12:23,623 --> 04:12:30,623
But I'm just trying to tell you that these – because you're asking about maybe an alternative to BIP300 that does the same thing.

2761
04:12:31,623 --> 04:12:33,623
I'm saying what BIP300 does is sidechains.

2762
04:12:34,623 --> 04:12:37,623
Sidechains is this miner courtesy thing.

2763
04:12:37,623 --> 04:12:45,623
And so actually what the BIP is supposed to be doing is keeping the miners on a very, very short leash

2764
04:12:45,623 --> 04:12:49,623
and protecting L1 from drama on the sidechain.

2765
04:12:49,623 --> 04:12:51,623
So that is what it's supposed to do.

2766
04:12:52,623 --> 04:12:59,623
And in that way, it's not quite the same thing as something like what you might say like a Schnorr signature is

2767
04:12:59,623 --> 04:13:07,623
or something like SegWit is or something where it's not like a – it's not so much a technical thing.

2768
04:13:07,623 --> 04:13:10,623
It's not like how do we do long division or something.

2769
04:13:10,623 --> 04:13:13,623
Like there's many different ways of dividing or multiplying numbers.

2770
04:13:13,623 --> 04:13:18,623
Like maybe you've seen that thing, the way that Japanese school children are taught to multiply numbers.

2771
04:13:18,623 --> 04:13:20,623
They draw a bunch of lines and stuff.

2772
04:13:20,623 --> 04:13:21,623
There's many different ways.

2773
04:13:21,623 --> 04:13:27,623
The way a computer multiplies two numbers is very different from the way a human being would multiply two numbers.

2774
04:13:28,623 --> 04:13:41,623
And so I'm saying like the point of BIP300 is to keep the miners on a short leash, make it very hard for them to steal coins.

2775
04:13:41,623 --> 04:13:42,623
That's the whole point of it.

2776
04:13:43,623 --> 04:13:53,623
And also make it so that L1 doesn't have to deal with all this drama or any kind of like confused like interpretation of what's happening.

2777
04:13:53,623 --> 04:13:55,623
It's a clear standardized rules.

2778
04:13:55,623 --> 04:13:56,623
And that is what it is.

2779
04:13:57,623 --> 04:14:07,623
And I think what would happen is to improve on that, you would just make a better version of BIP300 that would have like some details changed.

2780
04:14:07,623 --> 04:14:15,623
And the idea of trying to do it with something else, it would just end up being like BIP300 with a lot of disguise

2781
04:14:15,623 --> 04:14:23,623
or BIP300 with an enormous amount of extra overhead that is totally pointless and bad for L1.

2782
04:14:24,623 --> 04:14:31,623
So people are trying to say something like – it's kind of like going to the blockchain, not Bitcoin thing in 2016 where people are like,

2783
04:14:31,623 --> 04:14:34,623
oh, we really like this blockchain thing, but we don't like the Bitcoin part.

2784
04:14:34,623 --> 04:14:45,623
But the Bitcoin part is – it's kind of like – I don't think the answer is yes, but it's possible that someone will come up with something.

2785
04:14:45,623 --> 04:14:57,623
One candidate would be if there was some kind of really cheap ZK-SNARK thing that proved – a prover that you could have on L1 that was very, very resource intensive

2786
04:14:57,623 --> 04:15:10,623
and there was no bike shedding over what ZK-SNARK thing to use and what language the sidechain has to be written in like a special like ZK-SNARK way that has a ZK-SNARK hash and stuff.

2787
04:15:11,623 --> 04:15:21,623
And if all of this is kind of – that would kind of try to solve the miners can steal problem, but it actually would not because the miners can still just block the hash.

2788
04:15:21,623 --> 04:15:24,623
But it would still – that would be kind of like an improvement.

2789
04:15:24,623 --> 04:15:36,623
And instead of BIP300, it would be like ZK-SNARK thing, but I don't think that that actually matters because I don't believe –

2790
04:15:37,623 --> 04:15:45,623
I think that would kind of be better, but I think the ZK-SNARK stuff has its own other problems that make it much worse, which is that very few people understand it.

2791
04:15:45,623 --> 04:15:59,623
It's a total black box to most people, and it still relies on a ZK-prover being added to L1, which I think is many more years away than BIP300, which is just a simple integer.

2792
04:16:00,623 --> 04:16:10,623
It also doesn't really address the problem of like the sidechain slots, the ZK-prover of like who assigns the slots, like which sidechain gets slot four or are there just infinite slots?

2793
04:16:10,623 --> 04:16:18,623
And if there are, then like how are we like counting up to that?

2794
04:16:19,623 --> 04:16:29,623
It seems like I don't think that – but I think if there would be anything, it would be like a ZK-SNARK like unstealable sidechain would be a different idea.

2795
04:16:29,623 --> 04:16:32,623
That would be an improvement, but I think that is many more years away.

2796
04:16:32,623 --> 04:16:45,623
I think what people are driving at when they ask that question is something like, Paul, we really like your idea and the conclusion, but can you just do it in something else that doesn't require a soft fork?

2797
04:16:46,623 --> 04:16:51,623
But the answer is yes, but the whole point of the soft fork is to keep the miners on a short leash.

2798
04:16:51,623 --> 04:16:56,623
So the soft fork is protecting the L2 users.

2799
04:16:56,623 --> 04:16:59,623
The soft fork is not to benefit the miners.

2800
04:16:59,623 --> 04:17:09,623
It just happens to be a weird coincidence that this soft fork does benefit the miners because the whole BIP300 model involves miners getting paid money from merge mining.

2801
04:17:09,623 --> 04:17:11,623
That's just like a weird coincidence.

2802
04:17:12,623 --> 04:17:16,623
The miners could just do it as a courtesy today, which would be like a soft fork.

2803
04:17:16,623 --> 04:17:17,623
They would just be like doing it.

2804
04:17:17,623 --> 04:17:28,623
They could just announce we will allow – we will process deposits and withdrawals to our – they could create a federated sidechain tomorrow, just announce that it exists.

2805
04:17:28,623 --> 04:17:32,623
But what would be the point of that?

2806
04:17:32,623 --> 04:17:34,623
You'd be trusting the miners.

2807
04:17:34,623 --> 04:17:39,623
So the BIP300 soft fork is to greatly reduce the ability of the miners to steal.

2808
04:17:39,623 --> 04:17:48,623
They have to walk through the three to six-month gauntlet, whereas before it's literally like an FTX situation where they just have the coins.

2809
04:17:48,623 --> 04:17:57,623
So is it possible to maybe just test out kind of drivechains for now, like before enabling 300 and 301 and kind of show the concept?

2810
04:17:57,623 --> 04:17:59,623
Yeah, I think it would be good for that.

2811
04:17:59,623 --> 04:18:11,623
I absolutely – and we have testnet software, which we constantly improve, and we're on version 45 now, which we're going to release hopefully today.

2812
04:18:11,623 --> 04:18:14,623
So don't download it yet because the new version is much better.

2813
04:18:14,623 --> 04:18:17,623
Wait until Monday or wait until tomorrow or whatever.

2814
04:18:17,623 --> 04:18:23,623
But I think we have testnet software that you can run, and I think people should test it.

2815
04:18:23,623 --> 04:18:25,623
Testing it is by far the best way to learn.

2816
04:18:25,623 --> 04:18:33,623
It is a million times better than going around on Twitter and listening to people who have never run the software and they've never read the BIP.

2817
04:18:33,623 --> 04:18:39,623
And many of these people also – yeah, running the software is a good thing to do.

2818
04:18:39,623 --> 04:18:41,623
Yeah, I already tried.

2819
04:18:41,623 --> 04:18:52,623
I already was using – I was using the mainnet and even the kind of mining with the CPU.

2820
04:18:52,623 --> 04:19:00,623
I know it's a test, but you can see it's following the old blocks from the L1, and it's working perfectly.

2821
04:19:00,623 --> 04:19:05,623
It's like I was running for 15, 20 days without any issue.

2822
04:19:05,623 --> 04:19:07,623
So it's great.

2823
04:19:07,623 --> 04:19:16,623
Right, but I think the point I was making is like testing it, meaning like people can build on it to prove the concept of it being needed

2824
04:19:16,623 --> 04:19:21,623
and kind of seeing how the game theory of it being used could potentially work.

2825
04:19:21,623 --> 04:19:32,623
I mean, especially now with like AI and everything, couldn't testing some use cases actually prove to be easier and therefore show the kind of utility of potentially needing it?

2826
04:19:32,623 --> 04:19:36,623
Because I think this goes back to kind of the point earlier where it's like...

2827
04:19:37,637 --> 04:19:40,637
Is it really needed right now? Is it really what the market wants?

2828
04:19:41,637 --> 04:19:45,637
I fully agree with you that the right thing – this is what I've been doing this whole time.

2829
04:19:46,637 --> 04:19:50,637
So is like try to build the cool sidechains that people would want to use.

2830
04:19:51,637 --> 04:19:56,637
I think that's the way to go, and I think you have a Zcash sidechain that really makes people –

2831
04:19:57,637 --> 04:20:01,637
I think that proves – I don't know if people agree with this or not, but when I go to sleep at night,

2832
04:20:01,637 --> 04:20:08,637
I prove to myself that I care like more about Bitcoin privacy than like 99% of whatever other people working in the space.

2833
04:20:09,637 --> 04:20:15,637
The thing is just better. But I think I agree with you that we want to build this.

2834
04:20:16,637 --> 04:20:20,637
We can't really test it with real money without doing that on an altcoin.

2835
04:20:21,637 --> 04:20:25,637
Can I interrupt real quick? I would like to know like kind of at a 40,000-foot view,

2836
04:20:25,637 --> 04:20:35,637
like what do you think the problem that most of us Bitcoiners are most eager to solve with using Bitcoin?

2837
04:20:40,637 --> 04:20:45,637
Well, I can speak for myself. I mean, when I discovered Bitcoin, I thought –

2838
04:20:46,637 --> 04:20:50,637
what I thought was – I first thought this is the stupidest idea I've ever heard in my entire life,

2839
04:20:50,637 --> 04:20:55,637
and then obviously I regret thinking that now because that was much earlier, of course.

2840
04:20:56,637 --> 04:20:59,637
And then I heard about it again and again, and I heard about it whatever, and I was like, okay.

2841
04:21:00,637 --> 04:21:04,637
And then I heard about the Silk Road, and I thought, oh, interesting.

2842
04:21:05,637 --> 04:21:08,637
People are already using this illegally, like it already works.

2843
04:21:09,637 --> 04:21:13,637
And I thought if a drug addict can get this to work, they would want to –

2844
04:21:14,637 --> 04:21:17,637
they're highly incentivized to maximize the amount of drugs they receive,

2845
04:21:17,637 --> 04:21:26,637
so it must be secure, it must be coherent, and the guy running the drug site is making money doing this.

2846
04:21:27,637 --> 04:21:30,637
So it's already – it exists in the world, and I thought how interesting is this?

2847
04:21:31,637 --> 04:21:36,637
It's something that other people such as the government cannot interfere with.

2848
04:21:37,637 --> 04:21:41,637
It has its own objective existence, and I thought that is very interesting.

2849
04:21:42,637 --> 04:21:45,637
And I was like, this is fascinating, and I was like, I can own this thing privately.

2850
04:21:45,637 --> 04:21:50,637
No one will know that I own it, and it will just continue to exist forever,

2851
04:21:51,637 --> 04:21:54,637
and it's like this indestructible gold that can teleport.

2852
04:21:55,637 --> 04:21:59,637
And I was like, that's neat, indestructible teleport gold.

2853
04:22:00,637 --> 04:22:07,637
And I honestly thought I'm already way too late because the regular people are using it on Silk Road like in commerce.

2854
04:22:08,637 --> 04:22:10,637
So it's already being used, and it's like a bank.

2855
04:22:10,637 --> 04:22:17,637
And the one thing I always thought was, of course, the Social Security and other entitlements are eventually going to bankrupt.

2856
04:22:18,637 --> 04:22:22,637
The U.S. fiscal situation is like unsalvageable.

2857
04:22:23,637 --> 04:22:25,637
And I always thought, what are we going to do when that happens?

2858
04:22:26,637 --> 04:22:32,637
Probably we'll just print a ton of money, and there will be a lot of inflation in the future to deal with these government deficits.

2859
04:22:33,637 --> 04:22:37,637
So I thought if I buy this asset, I'm going to make a killing, and of course I was mostly right about that.

2860
04:22:38,637 --> 04:22:40,637
So I don't know if that's answering your question.

2861
04:22:41,637 --> 04:22:42,637
Where I think most people are like me…

2862
04:22:43,637 --> 04:22:50,637
Well, I was more interested in hearing what you think that most of us Bitcoiners who are Maxis,

2863
04:22:51,637 --> 04:23:01,637
what do you think it is that we think is the main problem that we're solving by being Maxis?

2864
04:23:02,637 --> 04:23:09,637
Because that was all a lot of things that we all thought kind of in early days.

2865
04:23:10,637 --> 04:23:15,637
Like you had your ideas similar probably to mine, and I had my own ideas.

2866
04:23:16,637 --> 04:23:22,637
But, you know, ideas change and problems change.

2867
04:23:23,637 --> 04:23:31,637
But I think I'm more aligned with Satoshi Nakamoto in the problem that I'm solving right now.

2868
04:23:32,637 --> 04:23:43,637
And I don't care so much about privacy in the sense that you do.

2869
04:23:44,637 --> 04:23:50,637
Like certainly I think there's things that you can do to be more anonymous.

2870
04:23:51,637 --> 04:24:03,637
But the main problem that I'm trying to solve is moving away from U.S. dollar and the Federal Reserve Bank,

2871
04:24:04,637 --> 04:24:09,637
and that control and that slave system money that is currently in place right now

2872
04:24:10,637 --> 04:24:15,637
and controls literally every piece of money on the planet right now.

2873
04:24:16,637 --> 04:24:24,637
So I don't understand how I would benefit from drivechains in that sense.

2874
04:24:24,637 --> 04:24:35,637
And I don't see how it would help me in my mission to keep money from being printed to oblivion in the future.

2875
04:24:36,637 --> 04:24:45,637
Like I just hear basically sidechains are money printing, sidechains are privacy, sidechains are good for speed.

2876
04:24:46,637 --> 04:24:52,637
But I don't hear anything about how it makes Bitcoin stronger against a state attack,

2877
04:24:52,637 --> 04:24:56,637
which we're always going to see.

2878
04:24:57,637 --> 04:25:02,637
Well, let me ask you this. Why do you think sidechains are money printing? Because they're not that.

2879
04:25:03,637 --> 04:25:16,637
Well, when you can put other competing tokens on a sidechain and move that value around, that's not helping the problem.

2880
04:25:17,637 --> 04:25:24,637
Well, why not? There's plenty of things you can buy in the stock market that you move around and they have U.S. dollar price.

2881
04:25:25,637 --> 04:25:30,637
And those things don't really harm the U.S. dollar. In fact, quite the reverse.

2882
04:25:31,637 --> 04:25:35,637
They are part of the financial infrastructure that uses the dollar.

2883
04:25:35,637 --> 04:25:44,637
The forex markets are like the U.S. dollar is one leg of the foreign exchange market in like 86 percent or so.

2884
04:25:45,637 --> 04:25:51,637
But would you say that moving Apple stock around is money printing?

2885
04:25:52,637 --> 04:25:55,637
If so, then it's going to be hard for you to stop money printing.

2886
04:25:56,637 --> 04:26:00,637
Well, certainly they can create more stock and they can sell more shares.

2887
04:26:00,637 --> 04:26:08,637
And that essentially is like credit, but it's not like credit from a bank, but it certainly is credit.

2888
04:26:09,637 --> 04:26:10,637
But it's just another thing.

2889
04:26:11,637 --> 04:26:25,637
There's going to be a fair amount of that, but also like that stock price is going to be related to like the sales of what Apple's doing, like everything that lives on their ecosystem.

2890
04:26:25,637 --> 04:26:44,637
So there is an underlying value there, even though like sometimes they sell shares and dilute their shareholders because they're making an investment or they're buying a company that they see that could fit under their umbrella.

2891
04:26:45,637 --> 04:26:52,637
And they're doing it because their shareholders are going to get that value back on the other side of this transaction.

2892
04:26:52,637 --> 04:26:55,637
But I don't see it as them doing money printing.

2893
04:26:56,637 --> 04:26:57,637
Right.

2894
04:27:00,637 --> 04:27:03,637
Yeah, it's because it's not money printing to have Apple stock.

2895
04:27:04,637 --> 04:27:11,637
And so if we had something else, if we had a block stream stock on a BitAsset sidechain, why would that be any different?

2896
04:27:12,637 --> 04:27:14,637
I mean, that's that's a good point.

2897
04:27:15,637 --> 04:27:20,637
And again, I'm considering all of the ideas that I've heard today.

2898
04:27:21,637 --> 04:27:25,637
It's been a pleasure to be a listener and a speaker.

2899
04:27:26,637 --> 04:27:28,637
And again, thanks for hosting this room.

2900
04:27:29,637 --> 04:27:30,637
Not saying I'm leaving yet, but.

2901
04:27:31,637 --> 04:27:32,637
No, you should think that's great.

2902
04:27:33,637 --> 04:27:34,637
I think that's really good.

2903
04:27:35,637 --> 04:27:36,637
I appreciate all your.

2904
04:27:36,637 --> 04:27:39,637
I just want to make the point that, you know, if.

2905
04:27:41,637 --> 04:27:48,637
If sidechains are going to be a way, I just don't see any way of necessarily controlling, you know.

2906
04:27:50,637 --> 04:27:52,637
Who puts a company on there and.

2907
04:27:54,637 --> 04:27:55,637
Yeah, but you don't want us to do that, though, right?

2908
04:27:56,637 --> 04:27:58,637
That's like the New World Order nightmare world.

2909
04:27:58,637 --> 04:28:01,637
If someone controls who can issue stock and who can form a.

2910
04:28:03,637 --> 04:28:06,637
A company, that would be the kiss of death to all entrepreneurship.

2911
04:28:07,637 --> 04:28:12,637
We would instead want to live in a world where anyone can create a corporation if they wish.

2912
04:28:13,637 --> 04:28:15,637
But look what's happened to.

2913
04:28:16,637 --> 04:28:19,637
The alt coins and all of those markets.

2914
04:28:20,637 --> 04:28:24,637
It's been the Wild West and it's been like a super drink.

2915
04:28:24,637 --> 04:28:29,637
Like a super drain on the value of US citizens, more or less from like rug pulls and.

2916
04:28:30,637 --> 04:28:31,637
I agree.

2917
04:28:32,637 --> 04:28:33,637
That's one of the reasons.

2918
04:28:34,637 --> 04:28:37,637
Sidechains, though, you know, is because I thought, well, what do we do about this?

2919
04:28:38,637 --> 04:28:41,637
And the wrong thing is just to try and shame people or try to.

2920
04:28:42,637 --> 04:28:45,637
Tell people that, oh, no, you're going to really regret that or whatever.

2921
04:28:46,637 --> 04:28:50,637
The right thing is you just change reality so that is that model is obsolete.

2922
04:28:51,637 --> 04:28:52,637
Right now you get an awful lot of money.

2923
04:28:52,637 --> 04:28:56,637
If you launch an alt coin and you say this alt coin is like Bitcoin, but it's different.

2924
04:28:57,637 --> 04:28:59,637
You are a parasite on Bitcoin if you do that.

2925
04:29:00,637 --> 04:29:03,637
But the whole reason that they can do that is because Bitcoin.

2926
04:29:04,637 --> 04:29:06,637
There's some difference between Bitcoin and the coin.

2927
04:29:07,637 --> 04:29:09,637
But with sidechains, there is no technical difference.

2928
04:29:10,637 --> 04:29:11,637
You have.

2929
04:29:12,637 --> 04:29:16,637
This is why the Bitcoin Cash guy can come in here and say, listen, everyone's going to regret.

2930
04:29:17,637 --> 04:29:19,637
Everyone's regretting small block L1.

2931
04:29:19,637 --> 04:29:20,637
Small block L1.

2932
04:29:21,637 --> 04:29:23,637
Isn't it better on Bitcoin Cash or whatever?

2933
04:29:24,637 --> 04:29:26,637
No, that's him.

2934
04:29:27,637 --> 04:29:30,637
That's just him coming in here and talking about a narrative.

2935
04:29:31,637 --> 04:29:32,637
And but that's that's not.

2936
04:29:33,637 --> 04:29:41,637
Sidechains, I think, are put a bullet in every narrative, basically.

2937
04:29:42,637 --> 04:29:47,637
Because the narrative is always this thing is like Bitcoin, but something else.

2938
04:29:47,637 --> 04:29:49,637
But with sidechains, there is no but something else.

2939
04:29:50,637 --> 04:29:51,637
It's like, you know, it's like a theorem.

2940
04:29:52,637 --> 04:29:53,637
It's like, oh, it's like Bitcoin, but it has smart contracts.

2941
04:29:54,637 --> 04:29:55,637
That's what people say.

2942
04:29:56,637 --> 04:30:01,637
So I'm going to push back here again on the privacy thing and say, well, if we've got more privacy on sidechains.

2943
04:30:02,637 --> 04:30:13,637
Like, aren't the US government and and anyone else going to come right after and push back against those sidechains and say, you know, you can't have privacy.

2944
04:30:13,637 --> 04:30:22,637
That that's one of the big things about privacy coins that people have always been worried about is, you know, the US government's never going to let that exist.

2945
04:30:23,637 --> 04:30:24,637
But that's the beauty of it.

2946
04:30:25,637 --> 04:30:31,637
That's why we have it as part of a part of the protocol, BIP300, that you can interface.

2947
04:30:32,637 --> 04:30:33,637
So it's not the same thing.

2948
04:30:34,637 --> 04:30:35,637
It's it's separate, but different.

2949
04:30:36,637 --> 04:30:39,637
But but it's still running on Bitcoin miners.

2950
04:30:40,637 --> 04:30:45,637
People on Coinbase can say you're more like hijacking Bitcoin miners.

2951
04:30:46,637 --> 04:30:49,637
Well, I don't think so, because the miners can always say we don't mind.

2952
04:30:50,637 --> 04:30:53,637
They can always pass on the Zcash revenues and say we're not.

2953
04:30:54,637 --> 04:31:03,637
So the fact that it's separable is actually the clever, the clever thing about it is you say Coinbase can say we don't allow anyone to trade the Zcash altcoin or Zcash sidechain.

2954
04:31:04,637 --> 04:31:05,637
But it doesn't matter.

2955
04:31:05,637 --> 04:31:07,637
You just buy Bitcoin and now you're in.

2956
04:31:07,637 --> 04:31:11,637
You have BIP300 is the ATM machine that converts it all freely.

2957
04:31:12,637 --> 04:31:13,637
So that's it.

2958
04:31:13,637 --> 04:31:16,637
You just as soon as you get your hands on Bitcoin, now you can transmute it.

2959
04:31:16,637 --> 04:31:20,637
You can go into the privacy of your own home and you can transmute it into Bit Ethereum or Bit Zcash.

2960
04:31:21,637 --> 04:31:24,637
And you don't need you don't need anyone else to support it.

2961
04:31:24,637 --> 04:31:28,637
You just need somehow somewhere to get something that touches the network.

2962
04:31:28,637 --> 04:31:29,637
It doesn't even matter.

2963
04:31:29,637 --> 04:31:35,637
You can start with the BIP300, a Bitcoin Cash sidechain or whatever.

2964
04:31:36,637 --> 04:31:41,637
As long as you get BTC somewhere on the network, now you can transmute it back and forth.

2965
04:31:42,637 --> 04:31:43,637
Totally.

2966
04:31:44,637 --> 04:31:49,637
At 40,000 feet, this is doing nothing to solve the problem that I'm going after.

2967
04:31:50,637 --> 04:31:57,637
So I don't agree with that at all, because the traditional banking system is this big hierarchical thing made of many layers.

2968
04:31:58,637 --> 04:32:02,637
Where at the top is something like the Bank of International Settlements.

2969
04:32:02,637 --> 04:32:06,637
And then there's all the different Federal Reserve Banks of each country.

2970
04:32:06,637 --> 04:32:16,637
And then there is within that people have an account of the Fed at like, you know, we have like a Wells Fargo, Bank of America, JPMorgan Chase.

2971
04:32:17,637 --> 04:32:19,637
It's this big pyramid.

2972
04:32:19,637 --> 04:32:24,637
And then Visa, I'm sure they have a bank account at Chase or whatever.

2973
04:32:24,637 --> 04:32:27,637
And then I pay for things with Visa.

2974
04:32:28,637 --> 04:32:31,637
And money for me is the method of payment for me.

2975
04:32:31,637 --> 04:32:38,637
And I, you know, it's undivorceable the idea that I save and spend in the same currency.

2976
04:32:38,637 --> 04:32:40,637
I save, spend and earn.

2977
04:32:40,637 --> 04:32:44,637
And in my head I'm thinking about dollars just like I speak American English.

2978
04:32:44,637 --> 04:32:47,637
So I'm speaking – I'm thinking in American English.

2979
04:32:47,637 --> 04:32:54,637
And this is the – I know that I cannot live outside the dollar world realistically.

2980
04:32:54,637 --> 04:32:58,637
I mean I can give it a good try, but I have property taxes.

2981
04:32:58,637 --> 04:33:00,637
I have whatever, income tax.

2982
04:33:00,637 --> 04:33:01,637
I have stuff.

2983
04:33:01,637 --> 04:33:04,637
Glacier Labs is a Delaware C Corporation.

2984
04:33:04,637 --> 04:33:08,637
So it's like the U.S. dollar is baked into everything.

2985
04:33:08,637 --> 04:33:13,637
And if people right now – think of what would have to happen right now if people are using Lightning.

2986
04:33:13,637 --> 04:33:20,637
My friend Cody was just tweeting about how he wishes that Lightning could send and receive dollars.

2987
04:33:20,637 --> 04:33:25,637
Because to send and receive BTC there's an enormous number of tax and accounting steps.

2988
04:33:25,637 --> 04:33:31,637
So this is – so the dollar world is fully installed, this gigantic pyramid.

2989
04:33:31,637 --> 04:33:35,637
Bank of International Settlements, Federal Reserve, Wells Fargo, Visa.

2990
04:33:35,637 --> 04:33:39,637
And then I'm at the bottom because I use Visa when I buy things.

2991
04:33:39,637 --> 04:33:40,637
I have my Visa card.

2992
04:33:40,637 --> 04:33:42,637
It's my Amazon card.

2993
04:33:42,637 --> 04:33:43,637
It's from Chase.

2994
04:33:43,637 --> 04:33:49,637
So it's great because I shop on Amazon a lot and you get 5%.

2995
04:33:49,637 --> 04:33:54,637
This is now an Amazon commercial, but you get 5% off of everything you buy on Amazon.

2996
04:33:54,637 --> 04:33:59,637
So I'm just giving you – I'm trying to give you a realistic picture of this is reality as I see it.

2997
04:33:59,637 --> 04:34:02,637
And it has this enormous amount of layers.

2998
04:34:02,637 --> 04:34:08,637
And all the serious people in Bitcoin, every single one of them, as far as I'm aware,

2999
04:34:08,637 --> 04:34:14,637
they believe that Bitcoin will also scale in layers, and it will also evolve in layers,

3000
04:34:14,637 --> 04:34:23,637
and that the final product will be this layered cake that is like this big kind of pyramid-shaped thing

3001
04:34:23,637 --> 04:34:27,637
that is exactly like with the Bank of International Settlements being L1 Bitcoin on top,

3002
04:34:27,637 --> 04:34:33,637
and then there will be Layer 2s, then there will be Layer 3s, and there will be more and more and more stuff.

3003
04:34:33,637 --> 04:34:35,637
And eventually it will be in all shapes and sizes,

3004
04:34:35,637 --> 04:34:41,637
and it will include a lot of custodial stuff and a lot of large block stuff that maybe we don't prefer.

3005
04:34:41,637 --> 04:34:46,637
It will include all that stuff that we don't prefer, but it will also include lots of stuff that we think is great,

3006
04:34:46,637 --> 04:34:53,637
and we will be empowered as users to travel along the spectrum as much as we desire.

3007
04:34:53,637 --> 04:34:59,637
And I totally agree with you that this is another thing that I thought of when I was first learning about Bitcoin,

3008
04:34:59,637 --> 04:35:04,637
because you asked about that earlier, which is that I actually had a kind of like image or a dream

3009
04:35:04,637 --> 04:35:08,637
or an imaginative kind of scenario where I was like imagining –

3010
04:35:08,637 --> 04:35:11,637
because I'm from the economics is my background actually,

3011
04:35:11,637 --> 04:35:13,637
and I used to work for someone who was a Fed chairman.

3012
04:35:13,637 --> 04:35:18,637
I used to work for a university economics department and in research.

3013
04:35:18,637 --> 04:35:22,637
So I was actually – I had this big background in economics,

3014
04:35:22,637 --> 04:35:29,637
and I imagined like a guy with a trench coat beckoning me into an alley,

3015
04:35:29,637 --> 04:35:31,637
and then he's explaining to me Bitcoin.

3016
04:35:31,637 --> 04:35:36,637
He's saying that thing that the Fed does and that the Bank of International Settlements does,

3017
04:35:36,637 --> 04:35:42,637
that thing that they do, like you could do that too.

3018
04:35:42,637 --> 04:35:47,637
You could be the person who controls like the ledger, and the person is like,

3019
04:35:47,637 --> 04:35:50,637
are you in for that or what, and they reach into a trench coat,

3020
04:35:50,637 --> 04:35:53,637
and they pull out this like magical orange substance.

3021
04:35:54,637 --> 04:36:00,637
That was like honestly kind of part of how I saw it was like this thing that exists

3022
04:36:00,637 --> 04:36:06,637
that is totally arbitrary, which is this pyramid.

3023
04:36:06,637 --> 04:36:14,637
It would be remade just with open source software, and it's like how can you turn that down?

3024
04:36:14,637 --> 04:36:17,637
That is just much better in every way.

3025
04:36:17,637 --> 04:36:19,637
So I don't know if that speech inspired you at all,

3026
04:36:19,637 --> 04:36:25,637
but I think that PIV300 is part of this layering thing that is going to be mandatory.

3027
04:36:29,637 --> 04:36:34,637
I understand, but I'm not sure it is at this point.

3028
04:36:40,637 --> 04:36:48,637
I know you put a lot of work into this, and I know it would be hard for you to let it go,

3029
04:36:48,637 --> 04:36:51,637
and I'm not saying you should necessarily.

3030
04:36:51,637 --> 04:36:54,637
I'm not asking you to let it go if people give a reason though.

3031
04:36:54,637 --> 04:36:56,637
But I want to make that clear also.

3032
04:36:56,637 --> 04:36:58,637
I don't know if people believe me.

3033
04:36:58,637 --> 04:37:00,637
If you're skeptical of this, I think that's totally fair game,

3034
04:37:00,637 --> 04:37:05,637
but I made a lot of money with Bitcoin, and I don't really need to work anymore.

3035
04:37:05,637 --> 04:37:08,637
Long story short, sorry.

3036
04:37:08,637 --> 04:37:16,637
But I am interested in this idea because no one has given a reason why it should not be attempted.

3037
04:37:17,637 --> 04:37:20,637
So there's no really like I don't have too much.

3038
04:37:20,637 --> 04:37:24,637
But there's another thing that I am very interested in, and that is this prediction markets thing.

3039
04:37:24,637 --> 04:37:29,637
And that is I do think that is the difference between like enormous prosperity

3040
04:37:29,637 --> 04:37:32,637
and confusion and misery for everyone.

3041
04:37:32,637 --> 04:37:36,637
So I'm actually highly motivated by that in particular.

3042
04:37:36,637 --> 04:37:40,637
I'm very, very motivated by that to the point possibly of self-delusion.

3043
04:37:40,637 --> 04:37:45,637
But whether or not drivechain should happen on Bitcoin is honestly like to me –

3044
04:37:45,637 --> 04:37:48,637
it goes back to what I said before in 2015 when I designed it.

3045
04:37:48,637 --> 04:37:53,637
I said, listen, this is not in an L1 cost, but it is folded into the difficulty adjustment with all the other costs.

3046
04:37:53,637 --> 04:37:55,637
So it's clearly fair game.

3047
04:37:55,637 --> 04:37:56,637
That is the idea.

3048
04:37:56,637 --> 04:37:58,637
It seems clearly right.

3049
04:37:58,637 --> 04:37:59,637
Now, what you're saying is something else.

3050
04:37:59,637 --> 04:38:04,637
You're saying something like it doesn't matter to me if Bitcoin stays the way it is.

3051
04:38:04,637 --> 04:38:06,637
But I don't think that's true.

3052
04:38:06,637 --> 04:38:08,637
I don't think you really believe that.

3053
04:38:08,637 --> 04:38:19,637
I think if you could choose right now between one world where the world is – the world as we see it right now,

3054
04:38:19,637 --> 04:38:23,637
and then it is a different world where Bitcoin has the same market cap and everything,

3055
04:38:23,637 --> 04:38:27,637
but is widely accepted.

3056
04:38:27,637 --> 04:38:29,637
Plenty of people accept Bitcoin.

3057
04:38:29,637 --> 04:38:33,637
When you go to Walmart, you can pay with Bitcoin.

3058
04:38:33,637 --> 04:38:40,637
If some landscaper comes to mow your lawn or the kid is shoveling your driveway, they take Bitcoin.

3059
04:38:40,637 --> 04:38:45,637
What you're asking me to believe is that you are totally indifferent between those two worlds,

3060
04:38:45,637 --> 04:38:46,637
and I just don't believe you.

3061
04:38:46,637 --> 04:38:48,637
You want Bitcoin to be bigger.

3062
04:38:48,637 --> 04:38:51,637
You want Bitcoin to be adopted by a wide variety of people.

3063
04:38:51,637 --> 04:38:52,637
We all do.

3064
04:38:52,637 --> 04:38:54,637
That's what we all want.

3065
04:38:55,637 --> 04:39:01,637
And in order to do that, we want more people to use it,

3066
04:39:01,637 --> 04:39:05,637
and those people have different thoughts on whether or not they're willing to run nodes of different sizes

3067
04:39:05,637 --> 04:39:08,637
or whether or not they're willing to run Lightning Node or whatever.

3068
04:39:08,637 --> 04:39:12,637
And the Lightning is not the perfect thing for everything.

3069
04:39:12,637 --> 04:39:15,637
Large block sidechain is not the perfect solution for every problem.

3070
04:39:15,637 --> 04:39:17,637
Lightning is not the perfect solution for every problem.

3071
04:39:17,637 --> 04:39:19,637
Layer one blockchain is not the perfect solution to every problem.

3072
04:39:19,637 --> 04:39:25,637
Just like you do not today, you do not use the Bank of—you do not have an account at the Fed.

3073
04:39:25,637 --> 04:39:30,637
You do not send Federal Reserve reserves around.

3074
04:39:30,637 --> 04:39:32,637
You do not use Bank of International Settlement.

3075
04:39:32,637 --> 04:39:35,637
You only use Visa or checking account or cash.

3076
04:39:35,637 --> 04:39:37,637
You move somewhere in the lower—

3077
04:39:37,973 --> 04:39:41,973
which would be the upper layers in the Bitcoin world, the L3 or something.

3078
04:39:41,973 --> 04:39:49,973
But you don't really—you don't use the L1, and most people will not—

3079
04:39:49,973 --> 04:39:52,973
people will use a different thing as it suits their needs.

3080
04:39:52,973 --> 04:39:56,973
And we want everything to be available to everyone. That's what we want.

3081
04:39:56,973 --> 04:40:03,973
The current world is kind of upside down, where your ability to use the Bank of International Settlements is basically 0%.

3082
04:40:03,973 --> 04:40:05,973
But in the Bitcoin world, it would be flipped.

3083
04:40:05,973 --> 04:40:09,973
The easiest thing for you would be to get to L1, because it would have the smallest blockchain node.

3084
04:40:09,973 --> 04:40:17,973
And then the other things would be harder for you to have self-sovereignty on, but maybe cheaper to transact on.

3085
04:40:17,973 --> 04:40:25,973
But yeah, I think we want Bitcoin to grow and succeed, and we want lots of people to use it.

3086
04:40:25,973 --> 04:40:32,973
And where it currently is right now is people go on Coinbase, they buy some, they don't use it.

3087
04:40:32,973 --> 04:40:35,973
In fact, our community makes fun of people who use it.

3088
04:40:35,973 --> 04:40:37,973
They make fun of people who use Bitcoin for spending.

3089
04:40:37,973 --> 04:40:45,973
They compare it to Roger Ver, and they make fun of people even who use the block space in novel ways, the ordinals and stuff.

3090
04:40:45,973 --> 04:40:54,973
They do not—that is seen as so bad that it can't even be discussed at the Bitcoin conference in Miami without it being—

3091
04:40:54,973 --> 04:40:58,973
how could they even consider discussing that or something?

3092
04:40:58,973 --> 04:41:03,973
So right now, the usage is discouraged.

3093
04:41:03,973 --> 04:41:09,973
So have you ever visited mempool.space.pool very much?

3094
04:41:09,973 --> 04:41:13,973
Mempool.space or something else?

3095
04:41:13,973 --> 04:41:15,973
I'm sorry, yeah.

3096
04:41:15,973 --> 04:41:18,973
Yeah, it's funny that I'm—

3097
04:41:18,973 --> 04:41:22,973
It's funny that everybody gets what you're saying, because I honestly was thinking, what is this, some other thing?

3098
04:41:22,973 --> 04:41:24,973
Yeah, mempool.space, yes.

3099
04:41:24,973 --> 04:41:29,973
I've been there, and in fact, I kind of know the guy who sort of made that somewhat or sort of funded it.

3100
04:41:29,973 --> 04:41:34,973
Well, and if—I mean, you can view it on a node.

3101
04:41:34,973 --> 04:41:38,973
If you run a node, you can view all those transactions.

3102
04:41:38,973 --> 04:41:45,973
So it's being used on Layer 1.

3103
04:41:45,973 --> 04:41:47,973
Because, of course, I want it to be continued.

3104
04:41:47,973 --> 04:41:53,973
I want it to be used on Layer 1 and also on many other layers.

3105
04:41:53,973 --> 04:41:56,973
I want the usage to go up.

3106
04:41:56,973 --> 04:41:58,973
Correct, yeah.

3107
04:41:58,973 --> 04:42:13,973
So it's really more about educating people on why and what it is to grow that utility, that usage.

3108
04:42:13,973 --> 04:42:16,973
That I can go buy some fruit and pay in Bitcoin.

3109
04:42:16,973 --> 04:42:21,973
I can go get services around my community and pay in Bitcoin.

3110
04:42:22,973 --> 04:42:25,973
But why are they going to do that?

3111
04:42:25,973 --> 04:42:29,973
Why are people going to accept Bitcoin?

3112
04:42:29,973 --> 04:42:32,973
Why are they going to use it?

3113
04:42:32,973 --> 04:42:35,973
Is it because it's a better money?

3114
04:42:35,973 --> 04:42:40,973
Like, it's more efficient?

3115
04:42:40,973 --> 04:42:43,973
I have an answer for you, if you like.

3116
04:42:43,973 --> 04:42:46,973
No, I didn't know if that was a rhetorical question or not.

3117
04:42:46,973 --> 04:42:48,973
I would definitely say no.

3118
04:42:48,973 --> 04:42:58,973
So, at some point, people are going to use it just because there's a chance that they're going to hold some Bitcoin and it's going to go up in value.

3119
04:42:58,973 --> 04:43:02,973
And they're after the value.

3120
04:43:02,973 --> 04:43:05,973
They're there for that number to go up, right?

3121
04:43:05,973 --> 04:43:07,973
Some people are, yeah.

3122
04:43:08,973 --> 04:43:18,973
More people are going to use Bitcoin because the value of the dollar is going down and it's the safe place to go.

3123
04:43:18,973 --> 04:43:24,973
And, or, people recognize the Federal Reserve for what it really is.

3124
04:43:24,973 --> 04:43:32,973
And they're going to start using the money that is rule-based and it's a money for the people, by the people.

3125
04:43:33,973 --> 04:43:36,973
Well, I think there's a lot of truth to that.

3126
04:43:38,973 --> 04:43:39,973
I mean, I don't…

3127
04:43:39,973 --> 04:43:42,973
That's why I think people are interested in the details.

3128
04:43:43,973 --> 04:43:49,973
I think, so like, I would never have joined the Bitcoin community if I had not read the Silk Road article.

3129
04:43:49,973 --> 04:43:53,973
Because I had heard about Bitcoin many times and I was like, this idea is stupid.

3130
04:43:53,973 --> 04:43:55,973
You can't just make your own money.

3131
04:43:55,973 --> 04:44:01,973
That is, why would, if you could just successfully make your own money, then there would just be copycats and it would just never end.

3132
04:44:01,973 --> 04:44:03,973
I'll just point out something real quick.

3133
04:44:04,973 --> 04:44:07,973
Dollar go down is number go up.

3134
04:44:07,973 --> 04:44:16,973
You can't like, be like, have this like, moralizing self-righteousness that, oh, those people are in it for number go up.

3135
04:44:16,973 --> 04:44:23,973
But me, you know, the righteous one, I'm in it because the dollar is going down.

3136
04:44:23,973 --> 04:44:24,973
It's the same thing.

3137
04:44:25,973 --> 04:44:32,973
Okay, but I was saying that like the, so why did the people on Silk Road use it?

3138
04:44:32,973 --> 04:44:34,973
Well, they had literally no other choice.

3139
04:44:34,973 --> 04:44:43,973
So that was an interesting event in the history of Bitcoin because of course they were buying and selling illegal drugs for the most part.

3140
04:44:43,973 --> 04:44:45,973
Well, they were very illegal for sure.

3141
04:44:45,973 --> 04:44:51,973
And I didn't know this at the time because of how young and naive and I lead a sheltered life, you know.

3142
04:44:51,973 --> 04:44:55,973
I don't know how obvious that is from talking to me, but I lead a sheltered life.

3143
04:44:55,973 --> 04:45:01,973
And I got, my parents got me a checking account when I was 16 and I got a credit card when I was 18.

3144
04:45:01,973 --> 04:45:05,973
It was before Obama changed the rules to stop like predatory.

3145
04:45:05,973 --> 04:45:14,973
And I got a credit score and I was so happy when I had my checking account at 16 that I had real adult, I called it real money because I thought the adults have checking accounts.

3146
04:45:15,973 --> 04:45:22,973
I knew nothing of the world, you know, and of its many sins and disagreements and misunderstandings and things.

3147
04:45:22,973 --> 04:45:25,973
So, but the point I'm saying is I didn't know this at the time.

3148
04:45:25,973 --> 04:45:28,973
I was like, why can't Silk Road, why can't they just use a credit card?

3149
04:45:28,973 --> 04:45:30,973
Because a credit card has always worked for me.

3150
04:45:30,973 --> 04:45:37,973
So I didn't know any of that at the time and I had to look into it and I was like, oh, of course, the credit card like they have your name and your address.

3151
04:45:37,973 --> 04:45:41,973
And I was like, why don't people just use a fake name or a fake address when they apply for the card?

3152
04:45:41,973 --> 04:45:43,973
I had so much to learn, you know.

3153
04:45:43,973 --> 04:45:45,973
I knew very little.

3154
04:45:45,973 --> 04:45:49,973
So, but the point is Silk Road, they had to use Bitcoin.

3155
04:45:49,973 --> 04:45:50,973
They had no other choice.

3156
04:45:50,973 --> 04:45:52,973
So the adoption is going to be like that.

3157
04:45:52,973 --> 04:45:54,973
It's going to be a bell curve, you know.

3158
04:45:54,973 --> 04:45:58,973
Some people, it was the only choice.

3159
04:45:58,973 --> 04:46:00,973
Remember when Backpage got rid of Bitcoin?

3160
04:46:00,973 --> 04:46:07,973
It became huge on Backpage back in the day because Backpage had this thing where you could pay to boost.

3161
04:46:07,973 --> 04:46:14,973
It's a lot similar to this thing that I like that I sort of invented called CoinNews, but you could like pay to boost your ad a little bit.

3162
04:46:14,973 --> 04:46:18,973
And this was closed down because of prostitution.

3163
04:46:18,973 --> 04:46:21,973
All the payment processing was closed down.

3164
04:46:21,973 --> 04:46:23,973
So they switched to Bitcoin.

3165
04:46:23,973 --> 04:46:26,973
And this is like amazing day for Bitcoin, you know, like.

3166
04:46:26,973 --> 04:46:29,973
And then I don't know exactly what happened after that.

3167
04:46:29,973 --> 04:46:37,973
But but then, yes, things like Edward Snowden had to use Bitcoin for the servers that he bought to host the files that he sent to Glenn Greenwald.

3168
04:46:37,973 --> 04:46:39,973
There were the Snowden leaks.

3169
04:46:39,973 --> 04:46:46,973
So so there's a few people who they absolutely have no other choice.

3170
04:46:46,973 --> 04:46:53,973
And as you say, then there's other people who are in it for primarily for a number go up and they don't really care about that.

3171
04:46:53,973 --> 04:46:57,973
Some of these people are truly apolitical and they don't even vote and they don't care who's in power.

3172
04:46:57,973 --> 04:46:59,973
They just want what's best for them.

3173
04:46:59,973 --> 04:47:01,973
God bless them.

3174
04:47:01,973 --> 04:47:03,973
There are other people who are like libertarians.

3175
04:47:03,973 --> 04:47:06,973
But this is my point is it's a big bell curve, actually.

3176
04:47:06,973 --> 04:47:18,973
And the network effects are strong enough that I actually don't think I think you run a risk pointlessly for no reason of losing the eCash.

3177
04:47:18,973 --> 04:47:19,973
I mean, just think about it like this.

3178
04:47:19,973 --> 04:47:24,973
There's WeChat pay in China, which has enormous network effect.

3179
04:47:24,973 --> 04:47:27,973
They're using WeChat pay for literally everything over there.

3180
04:47:27,973 --> 04:47:30,973
They have the social credit score already in place.

3181
04:47:30,973 --> 04:47:32,973
They have already installed all the cameras everywhere.

3182
04:47:32,973 --> 04:47:36,973
You know what I mean? It's like too late.

3183
04:47:36,973 --> 04:47:44,973
So if we check pay like spreads, then it because network effects are very strong.

3184
04:47:45,973 --> 04:47:49,973
I'm certain that you do a lot of your thinking in dollars if you're American.

3185
04:47:49,973 --> 04:47:51,973
I don't know if you are or not.

3186
04:47:51,973 --> 04:47:57,973
But I think, you know, like when you it's difficult to beat the network effects.

3187
04:47:57,973 --> 04:47:58,973
It's very strong.

3188
04:47:58,973 --> 04:48:07,973
And so we want to have lots and lots of different people each be Bitcoiners and be using the same 21 million Bitcoin and pricing everything in Bitcoin.

3189
04:48:07,973 --> 04:48:09,973
That is a big advantage.

3190
04:48:09,973 --> 04:48:14,973
And it's very it's very bad if we lose that advantage to some other thing.

3191
04:48:14,973 --> 04:48:18,973
And I'd like to just, you know, I love to hear your monologues, Paul.

3192
04:48:18,973 --> 04:48:26,973
But let me point out something out that it seems like I didn't realize maybe the the latest cohort of Bitcoiners don't understand.

3193
04:48:26,973 --> 04:48:29,973
The price is the catalyst for that.

3194
04:48:29,973 --> 04:48:43,973
When you have with Bitcoin, you have people who are motivated to the very core to their to their to the core of their self-interest to further the cause.

3195
04:48:43,973 --> 04:48:53,973
And these people can be, you know, in all walks of life and every corporation now and every bank all over all through society of people that are holding Bitcoin.

3196
04:48:53,973 --> 04:48:56,973
And maybe other people don't know they are to the scale that they are.

3197
04:48:56,973 --> 04:49:10,973
But the the self-interest in that number go up is is like the it's like the you know, the the silver bullet that in the in the head of of the central bank.

3198
04:49:10,973 --> 04:49:13,973
It's it's the key to the growth of Bitcoin.

3199
04:49:13,973 --> 04:49:27,973
It's what it means that people, you know, they have to have a observed, a real motivation where whatever the alternative is, it doesn't drive them like that.

3200
04:49:27,973 --> 04:49:34,973
So it's very important to understand that the price is not like just like a something to be scoffed at.

3201
04:49:34,973 --> 04:49:37,973
It's not it's not something that's irrelevant.

3202
04:49:37,973 --> 04:49:40,973
It is part and parcel to the to the cause.

3203
04:49:40,973 --> 04:49:43,973
But I mean, you say Bitcoin is the revolution.

3204
04:49:43,973 --> 04:49:47,973
Well, Bitcoin, the Bitcoin price is the fuel for that revolution.

3205
04:49:47,973 --> 04:49:59,973
I mean, I didn't quite understand until, you know, we've been talking about this the last few weeks, how many people kind of are in this like poverty cult where we're talking about the price.

3206
04:49:59,973 --> 04:50:14,973
Like the reality that the Bitcoin price motivates the growth is somehow seen as like a is somehow seen as, you know, not lacking the moral righteousness of of of, you know.

3207
04:50:15,973 --> 04:50:33,973
Anyway. Yeah, like I would just say, like, Coinbase is so rich because all these people have so much money because money is involved in like Bitcoin's price appreciation is made, made people have a ton of money that they would not.

3208
04:50:33,973 --> 04:50:40,973
And then they have this money and then they go to war against the SEC or the higher huge teams of lawyers and stuff.

3209
04:50:40,973 --> 04:50:42,973
That's kind of helpful for us.

3210
04:50:42,973 --> 04:50:44,973
We that we we will. How how would we have this?

3211
04:50:44,973 --> 04:50:47,973
We have like some senators and representatives helping us now.

3212
04:50:47,973 --> 04:50:51,973
They would not be helping us if this was like the Mozilla Foundation or something.

3213
04:50:51,973 --> 04:50:56,973
And we had no money and we're just like, you know, asking people to donate or whatever.

3214
04:50:56,973 --> 04:50:59,973
That would be a completely different situation.

3215
04:51:00,973 --> 04:51:05,973
Yeah. And they would not be helping us if it was not if there was no money in it for them.

3216
04:51:06,973 --> 04:51:13,973
And luckily, you know, they have this this plausible deniability where they can say, oh, I'm not in it for the money.

3217
04:51:13,973 --> 04:51:17,973
I understand it for the for the revolution or what have you.

3218
04:51:17,973 --> 04:51:37,973
But, you know, at all different scales, at all different levels all over the world, it's like we have double agents all over the place in all sorts of institutions, from all the way from the highest levels of the US government to the tellers at the failing banks of Latin America.

3219
04:51:37,973 --> 04:51:38,973
They're everywhere.

3220
04:51:38,973 --> 04:51:41,973
Yeah, there is. I can tell this app is about to crash.

3221
04:51:41,973 --> 04:51:48,973
But there is a great essay called Bitcoin's Subtlety in Allure, Bitcoin's Shroud of Subtlety in Allure by Daniel Krawitz.

3222
04:51:49,973 --> 04:51:52,973
And now I'm sure this app is going to crash. So I'm just going to close it and restart it.

3223
04:51:52,973 --> 04:51:55,973
But then we can hear from BitCode. I want you to read that. It's great, though.

3224
04:51:55,973 --> 04:52:08,973
BitCode, go ahead with your comment or question.

3225
04:52:08,973 --> 04:52:14,973
Yeah, I wanted to make a comment about the previous questions and the comments.

3226
04:52:15,973 --> 04:52:29,973
I would say for the people who are Marxists and want that, you know, to go and move out of the any fiat institutions or central banks and stuff.

3227
04:52:30,973 --> 04:52:41,973
First of all, if anybody uses the Bitcoin as uses through centralized exchanges or stuff like that, that's using the same system.

3228
04:52:41,973 --> 04:52:53,973
The only way you can achieve that is through utilizing the note, running a note and, you know, have control over your economic activity.

3229
04:52:53,973 --> 04:52:58,973
And that's the way how how Bitcoin is giving that power.

3230
04:52:58,973 --> 04:53:06,973
And another another comment I want to I want to make on I don't know who said about the price.

3231
04:53:06,973 --> 04:53:15,973
For example, I don't I don't have concern about the price because I know that Bitcoin is designed to always increase in value.

3232
04:53:16,973 --> 04:53:23,973
So through, you know, the intrinsic value, through mining, through the cost, through through the cycles, through the having and stuff like that.

3233
04:53:23,973 --> 04:53:39,973
So, you know, the. The different than that, like speculation and some markets, ETFs and stuff like that, that doesn't doesn't make any sense because Bitcoin is designed to do what is designed to do.

3234
04:53:39,973 --> 04:53:49,973
And that's from the beginning. And we have a history of 14 years that it's all the time doing the same thing and repeating itself every single cycle.

3235
04:53:49,973 --> 04:53:59,973
So. Paul, we're coming up on the five hour mark.

3236
04:53:59,973 --> 04:54:05,973
Do you feel we should aim to wrap up? Oh, we have David Bailey turning the stage.

3237
04:54:05,973 --> 04:54:13,973
Welcome. Hi, David.

3238
04:54:13,973 --> 04:54:16,973
Yo, I think it's going pretty well.

3239
04:54:16,973 --> 04:54:26,973
Well, I just joined the spaces, so I've only heard a few minutes of it, but, you know, I wanted to highlight one one point on the network effects of Bitcoin.

3240
04:54:27,973 --> 04:54:43,973
And, you know, I really agree with with Austin's point about like the power of number go up and, you know, that kind of what number go up tells us about, you know, is the technology working?

3241
04:54:43,973 --> 04:54:58,973
Is it in demand? Are people valuing it? And like for a system that's so, you know, on its, you know, at its very base, very foundation to be this like pure free market form of money, you know, I do agree.

3242
04:54:58,973 --> 04:55:10,973
It seems a little bit in conflict for people to like demonize number go up when, you know, number go up really like reflects the value of what we're doing.

3243
04:55:10,973 --> 04:55:24,973
But I guess my my my question or comment is like, you know, people we just went through a change not that long ago to enable lightning network.

3244
04:55:24,973 --> 04:55:31,973
Now, I know people have different kind of views on where lightning is and what its potential is going forward.

3245
04:55:31,973 --> 04:55:39,973
But let's say you're bullish on lightning network. Let's say that SegWit never happened on Bitcoin.

3246
04:55:39,973 --> 04:55:57,973
We didn't change. We didn't soft fork in order to enable lightning network. And instead, somebody else created a fork of Bitcoin that was exactly the same as Bitcoin, except it did have SegWit and it did have the lightning network.

3247
04:55:58,973 --> 04:56:14,973
You know, is it do like do people not think that, you know, a clone of Bitcoin with some feature that makes it more scalable or more usable could in time outgrow and outscale the original Bitcoin?

3248
04:56:14,973 --> 04:56:39,973
Well, I actually think it's a pretty interesting question, because I can kind of it's this is an interesting like I don't really know, because I think the the question of I think the network effects are like if you people make a fork, you don't automatically get half of the market cap.

3249
04:56:39,973 --> 04:56:52,973
Right. Like the fork, the new coin is at a huge disadvantage, which is the Bitcoin Cash. People tried to resist, but they tried in vain because they were inescapably new because they had a new date.

3250
04:56:52,973 --> 04:56:57,973
They had a new number, which was eight megabytes instead of one. And they had a new date, a new block height that they forked off of.

3251
04:56:58,973 --> 04:57:07,973
But they tried to take like the ticker symbol and stuff and they were unsuccessful. But the market cap doesn't just split in two and stuff doesn't just split in two.

3252
04:57:07,973 --> 04:57:16,973
People mostly prefer the old network. And in fact, the status quo punches way above its weight in game theory world.

3253
04:57:17,973 --> 04:57:26,973
I think the question is like if there was a new fork with a new feature, the question is like, why doesn't the bigger network just adopt the feature?

3254
04:57:27,973 --> 04:57:41,973
And the question is like, is it because people have decided that the first network is just stuck where it is? If so, I would say then the first network probably is doomed.

3255
04:57:41,973 --> 04:57:47,973
But then there's a whole separate question of like, is SegWit and Lightning enough to like make any difference?

3256
04:57:47,973 --> 04:57:54,973
Like you have stuff like Esperanto, where it's supposedly a better language, easier to learn, but no one really cares because it's too small.

3257
04:57:55,973 --> 04:58:16,973
Yeah, I guess my point is just like if people use the same logic they're using against BIP300 against Lightning, you know, I don't know how someone who's now like bullish on Lightning could make the case that like that's not an existential threat to like the old Bitcoin, so to speak.

3258
04:58:17,973 --> 04:58:42,973
I feel like there's a completely incoherent like lens at which people like look at Lightning and praise it and are excited about it and like think it's the future of Bitcoin, but yet simultaneously have the view that like Bitcoin has ossified, it doesn't need any change, it'll never need change and, you know, change is bad.

3259
04:58:43,973 --> 04:58:52,973
Yeah, I think that's 100% right. I find it interesting, like something I always think about is I'm like, there was a day before Michael Saylor had ever heard of Bitcoin.

3260
04:58:52,973 --> 04:59:02,973
And, you know, he thought his life was going really well. Little did he know this amazing news was going to crash into his brain, you know.

3261
04:59:03,973 --> 04:59:16,973
And the reason I bring that up is because there can always be even more better news, you know, no matter how well you think your life is going, you can always be like, wow, little did I know something really cool is about to happen.

3262
04:59:17,973 --> 04:59:24,973
And yeah, I do think that BIP300 sidechain and Lightning Network have a lot in common and should be thought of mostly the same way.

3263
04:59:25,973 --> 04:59:35,973
It's honestly kind of sort of an accident since SegWit and the drivechain blog post that became BIP300, they were both like kind of come up with around the same time.

3264
04:59:36,779 --> 04:59:47,779
It might even be plausible that SegWit as a soft fork is actually a newer idea than, I don't know the exact date, but an old version of drivechain.

3265
04:59:47,779 --> 04:59:51,779
So they're really very, very similar and they had like similar timelines and everything.

3266
04:59:51,779 --> 05:00:00,779
And it was just I think the SegWit as a soft fork happens to increase the block size by about 2.3x, which was kind of what people wanted anyway.

3267
05:00:00,779 --> 05:00:02,779
So it was kind of seen as this compromise.

3268
05:00:03,779 --> 05:00:09,779
But yeah, I don't understand. Yeah, people like they understand that it happened once.

3269
05:00:09,779 --> 05:00:15,779
SegWit enabling Lightning or low trust Lightning.

3270
05:00:15,779 --> 05:00:19,779
And so BIP300 enabling low trust L2.

3271
05:00:19,779 --> 05:00:28,779
As always, I play armchair psychologist and I say that this is because the scaling war broke everyone into teams.

3272
05:00:28,779 --> 05:00:35,779
And now if you critique the Lightning network, you sound like a Bcash saboteur.

3273
05:00:35,779 --> 05:00:41,779
And if you say, well, what if we do this instead of Lightning, then it's seen as a critique of Lightning.

3274
05:00:41,779 --> 05:00:43,779
So this is to all of our detriment.

3275
05:00:43,779 --> 05:00:49,779
All of us, everyone in Bitcoin I think is just worse off because of all this is just pointless.

3276
05:00:50,779 --> 05:01:00,779
Yeah. And then I guess my last comment would be like, you know, we talk about like what's valuable from crypto, like the crypto versus Bitcoin dynamic.

3277
05:01:00,779 --> 05:01:14,779
And like, you know, part of BIP300, I don't think it's like inherent to BIP300, but part of BIP300 is this concept of like, hey, it might be worthwhile to experiment with, you know, different applications of Bitcoin.

3278
05:01:14,779 --> 05:01:20,779
I know that's a wild idea that that that may be mere certain things are being done in the broader crypto ecosystem.

3279
05:01:20,779 --> 05:01:28,779
And I think there's like an immediate like, like, you know, people just react negatively to that because there's so much built into this.

3280
05:01:28,779 --> 05:01:31,779
Like Bitcoin is different and it's not crypto.

3281
05:01:32,779 --> 05:01:41,779
But when we talk about like number go up and we talk about free market, like the market cap of crypto has gotten massive.

3282
05:01:41,779 --> 05:01:47,779
And I know there's a lot of fraud in the space, but it's also been around now for a really long time.

3283
05:01:47,779 --> 05:01:55,779
And, you know, there's a lot of no-coiners that look at Bitcoin and, you know, see the same fraud that Bitcoiners point out about crypto.

3284
05:01:56,779 --> 05:02:08,779
So it's like the market to a degree is speaking that people are valuing, you know, for better or worse, Ethereum as a 200 billion dollar network.

3285
05:02:08,779 --> 05:02:13,779
And it has survived multiple, you know, bear cycles.

3286
05:02:13,779 --> 05:02:32,779
I feel like to reject what the market is saying completely and to say like there's no value at all and there will never be value there is to kind of reject also some of the underlying free market ideology that underpins Bitcoin's value to begin with.

3287
05:02:32,779 --> 05:02:36,779
So I don't know if you have any comments on that.

3288
05:02:36,779 --> 05:02:37,779
I completely agree with that.

3289
05:02:37,779 --> 05:02:40,779
I think that's it is part of what happened was.

3290
05:02:41,779 --> 05:02:43,779
Historically in Bitcoin, like.

3291
05:02:45,779 --> 05:02:50,779
Part of it is like these these many people work on Bitcoin Core the whole time.

3292
05:02:50,779 --> 05:02:59,779
They don't own that much Bitcoin and they have to watch like Roger Ver, these other people get rich and then they see other people like maybe like a Dan Larimer or someone like that.

3293
05:03:00,779 --> 05:03:03,779
They see other people, the alt coiners make a ton of money.

3294
05:03:03,779 --> 05:03:13,779
And this has led to a kind of culture, the toxicity culture, which is partly honest and very helpful to try and stop people from being scammed.

3295
05:03:14,779 --> 05:03:26,779
But it's also partly just it's a kind of morality to it, which is which is valid, which says like those horrible people are launching alt projects just so they can get rich.

3296
05:03:26,779 --> 05:03:28,779
And most of that is correct.

3297
05:03:29,779 --> 05:03:34,779
But the point is, it's like a pressure cooker that's cooked all these beliefs.

3298
05:03:34,779 --> 05:03:43,779
And so the idea of leaving Bitcoin Core for a different piece of software is seen as like this completely crazy idea because it's just all scams.

3299
05:03:44,779 --> 05:03:48,779
And that's what the 300 is saying, something like, oh, we can finally escape from this prison.

3300
05:03:48,779 --> 05:03:50,779
It's kind of negative in a way.

3301
05:03:50,779 --> 05:04:00,779
But but, yeah, the experiment, if you if you're pro science, you're pro experiment, if you're pro entrepreneurship, if you're pro capitalism, you're pro trial and error.

3302
05:04:00,779 --> 05:04:02,779
You know, like that. That's a good thing.

3303
05:04:02,779 --> 05:04:12,779
If that is what. And, you know, you're in favor of open source software and you're in favor of just individualism versus collectivism.

3304
05:04:12,779 --> 05:04:15,779
You want lots of ideas to be tried.

3305
05:04:15,779 --> 05:04:23,779
And that is what it is. It's people. Part of what makes it difficult to understand is that it's leaving the Bitcoin Core for a different piece of software.

3306
05:04:23,779 --> 05:04:26,779
People say, well, why? Why would we ever want to do that? Because Bitcoin is perfect.

3307
05:04:28,779 --> 05:04:35,779
And, you know, part of the reason why people are averse to the scam is because, you know, you're enriching.

3308
05:04:36,779 --> 05:04:51,779
People see it as, you know, I mean, I don't see it as it's like they they're right to see it as this, but that somebody is enriching themselves at the expense of some plebs that.

3309
05:04:51,779 --> 05:04:55,779
But to the plebs, Bitcoin could look that way as well.

3310
05:04:55,779 --> 05:05:02,779
You have people that have been into Bitcoin, holding lots of Bitcoin for a decade plus.

3311
05:05:02,779 --> 05:05:11,779
And so if you're coming at it today and somebody's trying to argue with you that say, oh, it's a scam because it was 70 percent pre-mined.

3312
05:05:12,779 --> 05:05:18,779
Well, to that person, what difference is that? What difference is it to that person?

3313
05:05:18,779 --> 05:05:25,779
It might as well, Bitcoin might as well be the same way because 90 something, whatever it is now, 95 percent of the supply is out there.

3314
05:05:25,779 --> 05:05:30,779
And it's held by the David Bailey's and Paul Storch's of the world.

3315
05:05:30,779 --> 05:05:33,779
So it might as well have been pre-mined.

3316
05:05:34,779 --> 05:05:38,779
I think people do. I think that's right about this.

3317
05:05:38,779 --> 05:05:42,779
The idea about one man's fraud is another man's great investment or something.

3318
05:05:42,779 --> 05:05:50,779
I definitely think you're right, Austin, about the the fact that the number go up has happened that.

3319
05:05:52,779 --> 05:06:02,779
It makes it so that like before people could just say that's a scam, but now what they have to say is, oh, my neighbor fell for the scam and now he bought every house on this street.

3320
05:06:03,779 --> 05:06:09,779
So it's kind of like it's just like it's very validating for people to make a ton of money, of course.

3321
05:06:10,779 --> 05:06:12,779
And that kind of validation is important.

3322
05:06:12,779 --> 05:06:14,779
And, you know, we have to respect investor sovereignty.

3323
05:06:14,779 --> 05:06:17,779
People want to try these things. They want to pay a transaction fee.

3324
05:06:18,779 --> 05:06:20,779
For a certain type of message, they want to invest.

3325
05:06:20,779 --> 05:06:22,779
Yeah, it's very difficult to see.

3326
05:06:23,779 --> 05:06:30,779
But we had Adam back two spaces ago or last space or something, and he was still using that line about the theory was pre-mined or whatever.

3327
05:06:30,779 --> 05:06:34,779
But I don't think I think that only applies like year one, year two.

3328
05:06:35,779 --> 05:06:37,779
I agree with David Bailey that.

3329
05:06:39,779 --> 05:06:43,779
But at this point, it calls out for some kind of different explanation.

3330
05:06:43,779 --> 05:06:48,779
If you want to say Ethereum is just a big scam, but it's like it's been growing year after year and it's not dead.

3331
05:06:49,779 --> 05:06:55,779
It's like it's kind of like, well, do we want people to just say that about Bitcoin?

3332
05:06:55,779 --> 05:06:57,779
I mean, that's what plenty of people say that about Bitcoin.

3333
05:06:57,779 --> 05:06:58,779
We say, well, it grows year after year.

3334
05:06:58,779 --> 05:06:59,779
It grows all the time.

3335
05:07:00,779 --> 05:07:01,779
We like it.

3336
05:07:01,779 --> 05:07:04,779
And then they say, well, it's only a matter of Peter Schiff or whatever.

3337
05:07:04,779 --> 05:07:06,779
It's only a matter of time before it goes to zero.

3338
05:07:07,779 --> 05:07:08,779
So you always get those people.

3339
05:07:09,779 --> 05:07:12,779
You get these people who whine no matter what happens, you know.

3340
05:07:13,779 --> 05:07:15,779
Just whine about everything.

3341
05:07:15,779 --> 05:07:18,779
Hey, guys, I want to share something, if I may.

3342
05:07:19,779 --> 05:07:28,779
So basically, we all love the properties of Bitcoin and like it's censorship resistant, immutable.

3343
05:07:29,779 --> 05:07:30,779
It's scarce.

3344
05:07:31,779 --> 05:07:36,779
And the barrier to entry for running a full node is very low.

3345
05:07:36,779 --> 05:07:39,779
And we all love those properties.

3346
05:07:40,779 --> 05:07:47,779
And if we want to look at like a different coin as a scam, for example, the dollar is, you know, we might all agree that, you know,

3347
05:07:47,779 --> 05:07:49,779
there's scammy properties to the dollar.

3348
05:07:49,779 --> 05:07:53,779
But the dollar obviously has some kind of use case and utility that is useful.

3349
05:07:53,779 --> 05:07:56,779
You know, people can use it and use it in various different ways.

3350
05:07:57,779 --> 05:08:04,779
So even if we call out different protocols and, you know, different asset coins as scams, we shouldn't be blind to their actual utility.

3351
05:08:04,779 --> 05:08:07,779
You know, people can have a utility, for example, Ethereum.

3352
05:08:07,779 --> 05:08:09,779
It solves their use case and they use it.

3353
05:08:09,779 --> 05:08:15,779
You know, even if, you know, we might not like maybe how it started or how it's, you know, how it's whatever it's doing.

3354
05:08:15,779 --> 05:08:18,779
Like we can't be blind that it actually does have utility.

3355
05:08:18,779 --> 05:08:25,779
And that being said, you know, for example, Lightning is definitely potentially adding utility and use case to Bitcoin asset.

3356
05:08:26,779 --> 05:08:30,779
As long as it doesn't compromise on the properties of the base layer that we all love.

3357
05:08:30,779 --> 05:08:35,779
I think that any added functionality, any added utility is a net positive.

3358
05:08:35,779 --> 05:08:43,779
Like, for example, drivechains, as long as drivechains does not actually, you know, as long as it doesn't compromise any of the properties,

3359
05:08:43,779 --> 05:08:48,779
the base layer that we all love and care about, then, you know, there should be no reason against it.

3360
05:08:48,779 --> 05:08:57,779
Now, the moment it does actually compromise on any base layer properties that we care about, then we should be skeptical, you know, skeptical about it.

3361
05:08:57,779 --> 05:09:00,779
Because then it's changing, you know, something that we care about.

3362
05:09:00,779 --> 05:09:04,779
But as long as it's not, I think, you know, it's a benefit to everybody.

3363
05:09:04,779 --> 05:09:11,779
And if like you use Bitcoin, like Shuli was saying, you know, why would Bitcoiners use Bitcoin?

3364
05:09:11,779 --> 05:09:12,779
For what's their, you know, reason?

3365
05:09:12,779 --> 05:09:17,779
And one reason or another, you know, one person might use Bitcoin for one reason, another person might use it for another.

3366
05:09:17,779 --> 05:09:21,779
That's totally fine. But if there's more use cases, then more people are using Bitcoin.

3367
05:09:21,779 --> 05:09:26,779
And, you know, it might be a different use case that they're using it other than, you know, currently people are using it.

3368
05:09:26,779 --> 05:09:32,779
And I think it's really important that it does not compromise any of the base layer properties that we find important,

3369
05:09:32,779 --> 05:09:38,779
like the barrier of entry, running a full node, immutability, scarce asset, you know, all the properties.

3370
05:09:38,779 --> 05:09:40,779
And I just wanted to share that.

3371
05:09:42,779 --> 05:09:44,779
Yeah, I agree.

3372
05:09:44,779 --> 05:09:51,779
Well, of course, Mr. Satoshi and Joy, not only it actually, those are those last few properties you mentioned,

3373
05:09:51,779 --> 05:09:54,779
it actually enhances those properties.

3374
05:09:54,779 --> 05:10:01,779
I don't know if it would happen, but I think we could reduce the block size in a drivechain enabled Bitcoin

3375
05:10:01,779 --> 05:10:06,779
with very little, with very little local consequence that we would have today.

3376
05:10:06,779 --> 05:10:14,779
Today we reduce the block size when you have this layer one, then you have to substantially reduce transaction throughput.

3377
05:10:14,779 --> 05:10:17,779
But in a drivechain enabled Bitcoin, you don't.

3378
05:10:17,779 --> 05:10:23,779
So you actually could make node running even more decentralized.

3379
05:10:23,779 --> 05:10:30,779
And as far as a barrier to entry, it could substantially reduce the barrier to entry now and in the far future,

3380
05:10:30,779 --> 05:10:38,779
because you have many different networks where you could actually enter the Bitcoin ecosystem through

3381
05:10:38,779 --> 05:10:45,779
with different attributes, potentially, you know, much cheaper, much easier,

3382
05:10:45,779 --> 05:10:50,779
depending on what person and when they're entering and the like.

3383
05:10:50,779 --> 05:10:56,779
Yeah, I agree with this too. I like Luke Dashjr's talk on why small blocks are important.

3384
05:10:57,779 --> 05:11:03,779
I would be a proponent for lowering the block size limit, even if we didn't have something like drivechains.

3385
05:11:03,779 --> 05:11:08,779
I think it's a net benefit for the block size to be lower because of that barrier to entry.

3386
05:11:08,779 --> 05:11:14,779
And there's a lot of other reasons that Luke Dashjr. explains in that talk.

3387
05:11:14,779 --> 05:11:23,779
But definitely with drivechains, it would enable a lot more usability and utility while still having the ability to lower the block size.

3388
05:11:23,779 --> 05:11:28,779
Yeah. And, you know, maybe the ship has sailed and, you know, we can't ever lower the block size.

3389
05:11:28,779 --> 05:11:37,779
But what we could do is enable drivechains and make sure that there will never be any pressure at all to ever increase the block size again,

3390
05:11:37,779 --> 05:11:41,779
because you could potentially see that coming. There could be a lot of.

3391
05:11:41,779 --> 05:11:47,779
Sorry, there's a background noise. I have my children loving, loving their life.

3392
05:11:47,779 --> 05:11:56,779
They're really enjoying themselves. And the reality is, is we could get if we get sustained.

3393
05:11:56,779 --> 05:12:05,779
I mean, if it happens, if we get a sustained fee pressure and Bitcoin transactions are one hundred dollars for a long period of time,

3394
05:12:05,779 --> 05:12:12,779
you could definitely I could see some potential resurgence for arguments that we should increase the block size.

3395
05:12:13,779 --> 05:12:19,779
If you don't have any other way to vent that pressure like drivechains.

3396
05:12:19,779 --> 05:12:26,779
I just want to say that. Thank you to everybody making these spaces.

3397
05:12:26,779 --> 05:12:30,779
I remember when like Henry was here alone talking to himself, literally nobody would join the space.

3398
05:12:30,779 --> 05:12:39,779
And it feels like it was just a few weeks ago. And I definitely like I hope that we would talk more about the technical aspects where.

3399
05:12:39,779 --> 05:12:46,779
Because I feel like a lot of Bitcoiners are they feel like drivechains can actually compromise on the base layer properties.

3400
05:12:46,779 --> 05:12:50,779
And I think that that's their concern. And, you know, it's a right concern.

3401
05:12:50,779 --> 05:12:57,779
So that's why I feel like talking about their concerns and, you know, airing them out and, you know, discussing them and seeing how potentially it's really not a concern.

3402
05:12:57,779 --> 05:13:01,779
I think that's really important. And I think that that's the biggest barrier from what I see.

3403
05:13:01,779 --> 05:13:06,779
You know, Bitcoiners think that, you know, it's actually, you know, it could compromise the base layer.

3404
05:13:06,779 --> 05:13:12,779
So if we can, you know, have any people that are thinking that, you know, come out and give their concerns and, you know, we could talk about them.

3405
05:13:12,779 --> 05:13:22,779
I feel like it would be a huge step forward. And I do. I really do think everybody that's putting in the work and making these spaces and out out here publicly talking with everybody.

3406
05:13:22,779 --> 05:13:32,779
Yeah. Thank you, guys. Thanks for those kind words. David, did you have any further comments to share?

3407
05:13:32,779 --> 05:13:54,779
Yeah, I just wanted to piggyback on what Austin was saying, like, you know, if you do have the worldview that Bitcoin is going to the demand for Bitcoin is just going to grow exponentially and we're going to have billions of people who want to come onto the Bitcoin network, then absolutely fees are going to go astronomical.

3408
05:13:54,779 --> 05:14:10,779
And lightning is not a panacea silver bullet for those scaling problems. It's just not. I mean, you can talk to the CTOs of the biggest lightning companies and they can tell you the biggest challenges that they have.

3409
05:14:10,779 --> 05:14:25,779
And so I agree that that, you know, as we onboard people in the cycle and we see hundred dollar transaction fees, that's a hundred dollar transaction fees are a good thing. Like there's going to it's going to drive a lot of investment into scaling solutions.

3410
05:14:25,779 --> 05:14:40,779
I'm bullish on transaction fees going up, but it's going to create a lot of pressure for people to push for shortcuts. And you're going to see a lot of old arguments resurfaced and there's going to be, I think, a very.

3411
05:14:45,779 --> 05:14:48,779
Did we lose David? I can't hear you.

3412
05:14:49,779 --> 05:14:51,779
I think we did. He says it says it's connecting, but.

3413
05:14:54,779 --> 05:14:56,779
It was a pretty good point, though. I think he's right.

3414
05:14:58,779 --> 05:15:03,779
And I agree with most of everything you guys are saying. I think. Who was it?

3415
05:15:11,779 --> 05:15:14,779
Bitcoin is the revolution. Are you still speaking?

3416
05:15:15,779 --> 05:15:33,779
Yeah, I was. I just got a call. But no, I agree. And I appreciate the conversation. I've got to get going myself here. But I just want to say thanks. And I'll be back again. I've got to go do a little homework and I'll let David have it back.

3417
05:15:34,779 --> 05:15:47,779
But yeah, like I'm I'm certainly a skeptic at this point, but I'm open to ideas. And that's why we're here is listening to the ideas. And I really appreciate that, guys.

3418
05:15:48,779 --> 05:15:52,779
Thanks for the Mr. Revolution. Thank you for your participation. Thank you.

3419
05:15:55,779 --> 05:16:01,779
So we have on the stage a large blocker, Hector. Welcome. Please share your question or comment.

3420
05:16:03,779 --> 05:16:12,779
What's up? I think my yeah, I am the elusive unicorn big blocker that drivechain aims to please. I think you guys are going about it all wrong.

3421
05:16:13,779 --> 05:16:31,779
You're you're asking the big blocker, right? The one that you think is going to come to your sidechain to use you to use you guys as a sidechain when they've gone as far as creating their own network, which you deem is illegal, irrelevant, you know, breaking the idea of Bitcoin.

3422
05:16:32,779 --> 05:16:37,779
Like what? Why would a why would they come back as a second class citizen on?

3423
05:16:38,779 --> 05:16:43,779
Well, it's not that we deem it irrelevant. I mean, it's the market has deemed it irrelevant.

3424
05:16:44,779 --> 05:16:49,779
I'm saying it's we are in the position that we don't care. Right. We don't care that you think we are irrelevant.

3425
05:16:50,779 --> 05:16:58,779
We'd rather build on an irrelevant L1 than build on your quote unquote relevant L2, because the whole notion of why we exist is because we believe L1 is the way.

3426
05:16:58,779 --> 05:17:03,779
Well, that's like the words of a religious minority. That's not like a long term.

3427
05:17:04,779 --> 05:17:08,779
The thing is, you're looking for us to come and create activity on your sidechain. We don't need you. That's what I'm saying.

3428
05:17:09,779 --> 05:17:11,779
Let Austin make his response.

3429
05:17:12,779 --> 05:17:28,779
I mean, that's not yeah, that's not anything sustainable long term. It's like that's the that's the that sounds like, you know, dogma from a religious minority that may maintain for many years to come.

3430
05:17:28,779 --> 05:17:32,779
I'm sorry, but your entire belief is on dogma.

3431
05:17:33,779 --> 05:17:43,779
Well, yeah, but the dogma, the dogma of the one true coin is many, many billions and billions of dollars and the dogma of the of the...

3432
05:17:44,779 --> 05:17:52,779
Austin, just cut to the chase, though. You're telling me that I'm a religious belief, but you guys are over here telling us that in order for you guys to...

3433
05:17:52,779 --> 05:17:58,779
Well, of course, but there's a big difference between the Catholic Church and, you know, the Amish Mennonites or whatever.

3434
05:17:59,779 --> 05:18:06,779
Wait, just let me finish. You're the whole the whole premise of why you guys are not willing to increase blocks is because you're, quote unquote, wanting for everyone to have a copy of this blockchain.

3435
05:18:07,779 --> 05:18:11,779
But in the same breath, you're telling that these fees are going to be astronomical. Therefore, you're not going to be able to bank the unbanked and do everything else.

3436
05:18:12,779 --> 05:18:15,779
You're quoting that you could have done because you only have 600,000 opportunities per day.

3437
05:18:15,779 --> 05:18:19,779
Well, but of course, what we have is an incredible structure here where you can have a...

3438
05:18:20,779 --> 05:18:22,779
No, you don't have anything. You don't have anything.

3439
05:18:23,779 --> 05:18:28,779
Well, you can have the large and all the benefits of the large blocks optionally on top of...

3440
05:18:29,779 --> 05:18:30,779
No, I just told you, you can't have them.

3441
05:18:31,779 --> 05:18:37,779
Well, I hear you saying those words, but let me just for the audience, just to give a basic layout of the architecture here.

3442
05:18:38,779 --> 05:18:43,779
You can have a optional large block on top of a mandatory small block, but the inverse is not possible.

3443
05:18:43,779 --> 05:18:51,779
So you can have the optionality for the users to have an option of what trade-offs they want to make.

3444
05:18:52,779 --> 05:18:53,779
But when you have the inverse...

3445
05:18:54,779 --> 05:18:57,779
Where do I make this choice that you're saying is an option?

3446
05:18:58,779 --> 05:19:00,779
If I want to use large block bitcoin today, where's the option?

3447
05:19:01,779 --> 05:19:09,779
Well, that's what we're talking about. The process we're talking about here is merging BIP300 into Bitcoin.

3448
05:19:10,779 --> 05:19:15,779
Okay, but me as a user, right now I have VTC coin, right? I have Bitcoin, whatever you want to call it.

3449
05:19:16,779 --> 05:19:20,779
Where in this process will then I be able to option into the idea of using the big blockchain?

3450
05:19:21,779 --> 05:19:23,779
You'd be able to send it to...

3451
05:19:24,779 --> 05:19:28,779
Yeah, there's a different piece of software that would be very similar to...

3452
05:19:30,159 --> 05:19:38,159
Bitcoin Cash Node or Bitcoin SV Node, except that it is instead of having its own coin there, it would be a sidechain of Bitcoin, BTC.

3453
05:19:38,159 --> 05:19:46,159
Right, so there must be some sort of settlement, right? Some sort of settlement of me moving from like... It's basically like doing cross-chain stuff or using a bridge to move to somewhere else, correct?

3454
05:19:46,159 --> 05:19:52,159
You start with the L1 coins in your example, then you click a little button and they show up on the L2.

3455
05:19:52,159 --> 05:19:56,159
So there's a transaction that must occur on L1 for me to then get L2 coin, right?

3456
05:19:56,159 --> 05:19:58,159
If you start with L1 coins or you could just...

3457
05:19:58,159 --> 05:20:03,159
Right, that's what I'm saying. If I'm a self-sovereign individual who has Bitcoins and wants to say, oh, I want to do some big block stuff, I must do that, right?

3458
05:20:05,159 --> 05:20:09,159
If you start with L1 coins, then yes. You can also just buy the L2 coins.

3459
05:20:09,159 --> 05:20:14,159
Right, right. But I'm saying I believe in Bitcoin, right? You're telling me to believe in this coin called Bitcoin, which is only 21 million.

3460
05:20:14,159 --> 05:20:20,159
The reason I should hold this is because the majority of my wealth should be stored in that. Therefore, I should use a minority of that amount for L2 stuff, right?

3461
05:20:21,159 --> 05:20:27,159
You understand the distinction between savings and spending that a lot of people...

3462
05:20:27,159 --> 05:20:34,159
That's what I'm saying, right? That's the belief, right? The majority of my wealth should be held in the L1 coin and then the minority of whatever I want to do in L2.

3463
05:20:34,159 --> 05:20:38,159
Okay, cool. So if that's the case, if that's what we believe, then...

3464
05:20:38,159 --> 05:20:45,159
And there's only 600,000 opportunities for me to get onto the L2 per day, right? 600,000, 600,000, whatever you want to call it, roughly.

3465
05:20:45,159 --> 05:20:52,159
But then there's also people doing lightning stuff. There's also the people who want to move, you know, just do Bitcoin transactions back and forth because they like Bitcoin and don't care about anything else.

3466
05:20:52,159 --> 05:21:03,159
They just want to hodl, right? If you just extrapolate that idea that if you said, okay, let's have the United States workforce hodl every two weeks, that's 150 million people who are hodling every two weeks, 5-10% of their paycheck.

3467
05:21:03,159 --> 05:21:07,159
Now do that every month because they get paid twice a month. That's 300 million people doing it.

3468
05:21:07,159 --> 05:21:16,159
Or 300 million transactions occurring every year, every month, times that by 12. In a month, that's 435 days worth of transactions that are occurring just to do the L1 to L1 transaction.

3469
05:21:16,159 --> 05:21:21,159
Not to do this, not to do this onboarding to small block to big block, not to do the lightning transaction, not to do anything else.

3470
05:21:21,159 --> 05:21:30,159
Just to do 10% of your hodl bag back to L1 and just do this cold storage, not even to pay economic activity, just to go move your coins to your cold wallet from your fiat, right?

3471
05:21:30,159 --> 05:21:34,159
Just to do that one simple thing, that's 435 days of transactions in a month.

3472
05:21:34,159 --> 05:21:42,159
Now you're trying to times that by 12 because you're over a year. When are we ever going to be able to go to the L2 that you're so famously trying to tout and say it's a good thing?

3473
05:21:42,159 --> 05:21:48,159
Well, I don't really understand your question because it seems to outline the purpose of the L2 very clearly, which is that people get paid on L2.

3474
05:21:49,159 --> 05:22:07,159
They'd mostly save on there. And then how often they settle to L1 is a function of their willingness to pay the L1 fee, which if it's very crowded and a lot of people are coming back, as you say, then only the blocks on L1 will be full and only so many people will be able to do it.

3475
05:22:07,159 --> 05:22:14,159
But there's an important distinction between BIP300 and the Lightning Network that you don't need to start on L1.

3476
05:22:14,159 --> 05:22:19,159
You don't need to start on Lightning either. You can go get Lightning coins from like Strike or something, right? And then go back and go to L1.

3477
05:22:19,159 --> 05:22:28,159
Those aren't really Lightning coins, actually, in my opinion. They're definitely not. For Lightning, you actually do need to start on L1. You need to open a channel on L1.

3478
05:22:28,159 --> 05:22:35,159
No, you don't have to. You can go to Strike right now and get tokens that are on their network, right? Yeah, it's a third layer network that's built on top of Lightning.

3479
05:22:36,159 --> 05:22:49,159
It's misleading to call that. That's no more Lightning than FTX had. FTX said it had a lot of whatever, ETH, but it didn't really have that. That's not actually Lightning in my humble opinion, but my opinion is certainly a minority opinion.

3480
05:22:49,159 --> 05:22:53,159
A lot of people just say, what's the difference between custodial Lightning and not custodial Lightning?

3481
05:22:53,159 --> 05:23:07,159
But for Lightning, you go on Strike and you get Lightning. What the Lightning Network is literally defined as is there's a multi-signature output on L1, a two-of-two multi-sig, and you have one of the keys.

3482
05:23:07,159 --> 05:23:10,159
So if that didn't happen on L1, then it's not Lightning.

3483
05:23:10,159 --> 05:23:18,159
Right, but then that's like saying Coinbase transactions aren't real transactions. Yeah, sure, and I agree with you. I understand what you're saying, but to say that those aren't actual transactions.

3484
05:23:19,159 --> 05:23:22,159
They're real transactions, but they're not real Bitcoin transactions.

3485
05:23:22,159 --> 05:23:32,159
Right, but you are subject to the exact same problem that Lightning is. You're saying is a problem because in order for me to create a payment channel with you, I must put up liquidity to do so, right?

3486
05:23:32,159 --> 05:23:39,159
Or we have to put up liquidity to create a payment channel, but I'm saying creating that payment channel requires an L1 transaction, just like you're saying.

3487
05:23:39,159 --> 05:23:41,159
On Lightning, yes, but not on BIP300.

3488
05:23:41,159 --> 05:23:49,159
But how is it any different? Those are not Bitcoins, right? Those are derivatives of the Bitcoin that you must then move back to L1.

3489
05:23:49,159 --> 05:24:03,159
Well, there's always some aspiration, even with the L1. It's true that it's not quite the same. You're right about that, but I'm saying it's very, very close. I would think it would beat going on to BCH or BSV.

3490
05:24:04,159 --> 05:24:13,159
But look, the reason you're creating this, you're wanting to create this because you believe that there is a bottleneck, and the bottleneck is there because there is a limitation, and the limitation is there because there's an ideology there.

3491
05:24:13,159 --> 05:24:25,159
The ideology there is because everyone should have a copy, but then you're telling everyone to have a copy, but at the end of the day, you're saying not everyone's going to be able to actually have stuff on this L1, so you need L2s, L3s, LNs, whatever, because it's going to be just too expensive.

3492
05:24:25,159 --> 05:24:29,159
So what's the point of running the L1 if you're never going to be able to use it?

3493
05:24:30,159 --> 05:24:38,159
Well, because there's a hierarchy of possibilities, and you want the small block to be the L1, and you want the optional...

3494
05:24:38,159 --> 05:24:41,159
But why? You're not telling me why, though. You're not saying why.

3495
05:24:41,159 --> 05:24:55,159
It's kind of like how a Honda Civic has four wheels and it has a radio, and then you can go from there up to a Lexus or a Lamborghini or something. You know what I mean? A Lamborghini also has four wheels, but it's optional.

3496
05:24:56,159 --> 05:25:01,159
You want to go in one direction, you want to go optional. You don't want it to be that everyone has to buy a Lamborghini first.

3497
05:25:01,159 --> 05:25:12,159
No, but the precedent has said that there must be an ideology of a very small, fixed size, and that size is backed on the idea that so everyone could have a copy.

3498
05:25:12,159 --> 05:25:21,159
But the reason everyone should have a copy is so they can verify the processing of what's happening on that network. But if everyone is too expensive to be able to use that network, what's the point of having the copy?

3499
05:25:22,159 --> 05:25:33,159
These are different costs, though. You raise a very good point, but these are different costs. You understand that it's like you buy a house, and the rent is cheap, but you have to pay for your own heat.

3500
05:25:33,159 --> 05:25:40,159
And it depends on if it's cold, and if you care about being warm, and if you have a jacket. You know what I mean? These are different costs.

3501
05:25:41,159 --> 05:25:49,159
Exactly what I'm saying, but it's to the same end. In a very weird way, you're kind of telling me that you don't actually believe in the game theory of Bitcoin.

3502
05:25:49,159 --> 05:25:59,159
The game theory of Bitcoin is adversarial parties are able to agree on a source of truth because of economic incentive, and that economic incentive is what allows these miners and these people to be able to tell you the truth instead of lying to you.

3503
05:25:59,159 --> 05:26:09,159
But you're saying, I don't believe in that because I'd rather have these random people who have a copy of a $200 machine to tell me the truth rather than the people who have the most incentive to tell me the truth.

3504
05:26:09,159 --> 05:26:12,159
The miners thing, yes. I think you're right about that.

3505
05:26:12,159 --> 05:26:16,159
But you understand that it's not even my complaint. I don't even really…

3506
05:26:16,159 --> 05:26:21,159
No, I mean in general. You're kind of supporting the complaint because you're willing to say that L2s and L3s are…

3507
05:26:21,159 --> 05:26:27,159
Well, they seem earnest to me, the L1 people. The small blockers seem earnest to me, and so do the large blockers.

3508
05:26:27,159 --> 05:26:38,159
Hey, isn't it unfair for me? You say, how dare you take the small blockers seriously? But one of them could show up. Adam Back could show up and you could say, Paul, how dare you take the large blockers seriously?

3509
05:26:38,159 --> 05:26:44,159
So I think you should cut me a little slack for at least just trying to make everyone happy, which is what I would…

3510
05:26:44,159 --> 05:26:50,159
But you're not… Hector, I don't think we can hear you. I think you're…

3511
05:26:51,159 --> 05:26:59,159
Hey, Paul, quick question. Can you go between drivechains without creating a Layer 1 transaction?

3512
05:26:59,159 --> 05:27:07,159
Yes, but this requires – not technically, like not unilaterally, but all you need to do is partner with someone.

3513
05:27:07,159 --> 05:27:14,159
So it's kind of like if you go to an ATM in a different country or in a different bank and they charge you $5, they say, like, we'll figure it out behind the scenes.

3514
05:27:15,159 --> 05:27:19,159
We'll give you your $60, but we're going to charge you, like, $5 or whatever.

3515
05:27:19,159 --> 05:27:40,159
So what you do is you just basically – if you have four BTC on one network, sidechain three, and you want to have four Bitcoin on sidechain four, you do some kind of like HTLC or some kind of transaction, or it could just be an over-the-counter transaction, really, where you just tell the person, I'll send you mine over here and you send me yours over there.

3516
05:27:41,159 --> 05:27:50,159
So in practice, it's possible, but the technical operation is that you can only – only the deposits – you can only move into the coin by depositing it.

3517
05:27:51,159 --> 05:27:53,159
So you have to – in order to deposit it, it has to be on L1.

3518
05:27:54,159 --> 05:28:02,159
So not unilaterally, but if all you need is someone else out there in the world who is willing to be market maker for this and charge you a tiny fee.

3519
05:28:03,159 --> 05:28:05,159
But again, it raises the question, why?

3520
05:28:06,159 --> 05:28:07,159
Like, why are we doing this?

3521
05:28:08,159 --> 05:28:15,159
You're going to tell a massive amount of people that you are better off on L2, L3, rather than being on L1 because you're not rich enough, you're not important enough.

3522
05:28:16,159 --> 05:28:18,159
Like, who makes – why is that decision made?

3523
05:28:19,159 --> 05:28:20,159
Why can't everyone just be the L1?

3524
05:28:21,159 --> 05:28:22,159
I don't understand that part.

3525
05:28:23,159 --> 05:28:27,159
But the L1 is – you're imposing a cost on your fellow man, though.

3526
05:28:28,159 --> 05:28:29,159
But the cost is – I just told you.

3527
05:28:30,159 --> 05:28:33,159
The cost will be bared by no one because the majority of people won't ever be able to pay that cost.

3528
05:28:34,159 --> 05:28:35,159
Therefore, they're not willing to run the node.

3529
05:28:36,159 --> 05:28:37,159
So the cost is irrelevant.

3530
05:28:38,159 --> 05:28:39,159
We're talking about the node cost.

3531
05:28:40,159 --> 05:28:41,159
Exactly. That's what I'm saying.

3532
05:28:42,159 --> 05:28:43,159
The node cost is going to be so high, who cares, right?

3533
05:28:44,159 --> 05:28:47,159
Because the node cost – the transaction cost outweighs the node cost.

3534
05:28:48,159 --> 05:28:51,159
Well, that's sort of a theory though, but I don't actually think that that's the case.

3535
05:28:51,159 --> 05:28:58,159
I don't think that – I think what David Bailey was saying before was that if you poured all of that activity on L1, then the fees would be enormous.

3536
05:28:59,159 --> 05:29:03,159
But it's not necessarily the case that the L1 fee will be higher than – but it doesn't matter if it is.

3537
05:29:04,159 --> 05:29:09,159
Do you understand? It doesn't matter if it is because the dispute was about the node cost, not the transaction fee.

3538
05:29:10,159 --> 05:29:11,159
The transaction fees are high.

3539
05:29:12,159 --> 05:29:27,159
But I would like to say one thing before we go to Ryandale, which is do you actually understand why BIP300 is very different from the Lightning Network in terms of onboarding people without Layer 1 bytes?

3540
05:29:28,159 --> 05:29:29,159
Because this is a very important difference.

3541
05:29:33,159 --> 05:29:34,159
Hector, did you hear his question?

3542
05:29:37,159 --> 05:29:38,159
Hector?

3543
05:29:39,159 --> 05:29:40,159
Sorry, I was going through an elevator.

3544
05:29:42,159 --> 05:29:46,159
I actually just came up to try to maybe say Hector's question in a different way.

3545
05:29:47,159 --> 05:30:01,159
And Hector, tell me if I'm capturing your question correctly, which is if the whole premise of call it four megabyte blocks is we want to make sure that anybody in the world can run a Raspberry Pi to validate L1.

3546
05:30:02,159 --> 05:30:20,159
But if the central premise of the BIP300, post BIP300 future is that in the future, there's going to be so much demand for L1 that there's going to be a large swap of the population who's going to be unable to use the L1.

3547
05:30:20,159 --> 05:30:23,159
They're going to be using a big block sidechain instead.

3548
05:30:24,159 --> 05:30:38,159
What's the value of making it so that the L1 can be validated by a $100 computer if the people who can actually use the L1 are not the people running $100 computers?

3549
05:30:39,159 --> 05:30:53,159
If you are too poor to afford a bigger computer to run an L1 node, then you will also be too poor to actually use the L1 because of all this demand.

3550
05:30:54,159 --> 05:31:19,159
If you onboard straight to the sidechain, if you get paid in sidechain coins, you pay for your coffee in sidechain coins, you pay for your mortgage in sidechain coins, you offboard with sidechain coins and you never actually touch the main chain because the main chain is just for settlement between sidechains, then why is it important that the main chain is validatable with a $100 computer?

3551
05:31:20,159 --> 05:31:23,159
Hector, is that the thrust of your argument?

3552
05:31:23,159 --> 05:31:24,159
Yeah, pretty much.

3553
05:31:26,159 --> 05:31:30,159
Well, I think it's a very good argument, but I have to understand that I don't actually see it in any of these terms at all.

3554
05:31:30,159 --> 05:31:45,159
But I will answer the question anyway, which is that the L1 full node cost, it's not necessarily monotonic because we discussed this in detail earlier, but the point is it's the same for everyone and it's going up and up and up as time goes on.

3555
05:31:45,159 --> 05:31:55,159
So it's kind of like this looming problem that is common to everyone, whereas the fees, I don't see the fees as being like the fees come and go.

3556
05:31:55,159 --> 05:31:59,159
So the fees are like particular to a certain place in time.

3557
05:31:59,159 --> 05:32:03,159
And if you're willing, if you're patient, then the fee rates will probably go down.

3558
05:32:03,159 --> 05:32:12,159
It's my personal belief that the L1 fees will not ever be more than like five or six dollars per L1 transaction, although reasonable people disagree about that.

3559
05:32:12,159 --> 05:32:14,159
I just think the demand won't be there for that.

3560
05:32:14,159 --> 05:32:33,159
I think the only way the demand could possibly be there for L1 would be if Bitcoin is outrageously successful and it has many sidechains and other L2s, state chains, lightning, whatever, where those are all incredibly successful and very secure also.

3561
05:32:33,159 --> 05:32:36,159
But yeah, I don't believe the L1 fees will rise.

3562
05:32:37,159 --> 05:32:40,159
The L1 fee rates will actually rise, but other people do.

3563
05:32:40,159 --> 05:32:45,159
But it sort of doesn't matter if they do or if they don't, because to me they're separate questions.

3564
05:32:45,159 --> 05:32:57,159
The cost of running the layer one node must be borne by everyone or the network stops existing for both the regular users and the miners.

3565
05:32:58,159 --> 05:33:04,159
So in that way, it deserves to take precedence over the fee, which only affects someone who's trying to transact today.

3566
05:33:04,159 --> 05:33:09,159
Because, of course, if everyone just stops transacting today or tomorrow, then the fee will plummet to zero.

3567
05:33:09,159 --> 05:33:18,159
So the fee will kind of – there's some tiny sense in which the fee has a little bit more feedback and will sort of work itself out and is more privatized and internalized.

3568
05:33:19,159 --> 05:33:28,159
It hits only the people who – it hits only sort of individuals, whereas the node cost hits everything.

3569
05:33:28,159 --> 05:33:31,159
But I want to stress that I don't see it this way at all.

3570
05:33:31,159 --> 05:33:34,159
What I saw was the block size debate.

3571
05:33:34,159 --> 05:33:39,159
There were two people who wanted different things, small blocks and large blocks.

3572
05:33:40,159 --> 05:33:46,159
The large block people were perfectly happy with extremely high reliance on SPV.

3573
05:33:46,159 --> 05:33:55,159
Drivechain is an idea that is only like 2% of the SPV that the large blockers already said.

3574
05:33:55,159 --> 05:33:59,159
Because as you already heard, Hector, you've just said it already.

3575
05:33:59,159 --> 05:34:02,159
You said we trust – the miners have an incentive to get it right or whatever.

3576
05:34:03,159 --> 05:34:11,159
So you guys are the ones who place far more trust in miners than BIP300 requires, which is tiny percent.

3577
05:34:11,159 --> 05:34:17,159
I think it's the same trust that Satoshi – the reason he was able to solve the Byzantine general problem.

3578
05:34:17,159 --> 05:34:18,159
That's the point of it.

3579
05:34:18,159 --> 05:34:24,159
To say adversaries of the generals were able to trust each other because there's an economic incentive to do so.

3580
05:34:24,159 --> 05:34:25,159
That's Bitcoin.

3581
05:34:26,159 --> 05:34:31,159
But that's great, though, because what you say – you say I'm in for this much trust.

3582
05:34:31,159 --> 05:34:37,159
But I'm saying BIP300 only requires 2% of that, small amount of that.

3583
05:34:37,159 --> 05:34:44,159
I suppose you could find an exact percentage because you could divide six confirmations into three months and find whatever that is.

3584
05:34:44,159 --> 05:34:45,159
But something like that.

3585
05:34:45,159 --> 05:34:48,159
That's the only hit you guys take.

3586
05:34:49,159 --> 05:34:52,159
And in return, you get something that's basically the same.

3587
05:34:52,159 --> 05:34:56,159
The blocks are just extended to whatever size you want from your point of view.

3588
05:34:56,159 --> 05:35:01,159
You're not really second-class citizens if you trust the miners as much as you do.

3589
05:35:01,159 --> 05:35:03,159
You're the same class you were before.

3590
05:35:03,159 --> 05:35:04,159
You don't even notice.

3591
05:35:04,159 --> 05:35:07,159
No, because I have no L1 history of what's going on.

3592
05:35:07,159 --> 05:35:09,159
You still have the L1 history?

3593
05:35:09,159 --> 05:35:11,159
No, you have the L1 history.

3594
05:35:11,159 --> 05:35:12,159
It's the same thing, though.

3595
05:35:12,159 --> 05:35:17,159
You could think about – if someone was a large blocker and you just told them,

3596
05:35:17,159 --> 05:35:20,159
we have hard forked to add a mandatory extension block.

3597
05:35:20,159 --> 05:35:22,159
Here is the new software.

3598
05:35:23,159 --> 05:35:28,159
If you just told them that and you never told them, and you said this is how we move coins,

3599
05:35:28,159 --> 05:35:32,159
moving coins back to the small block world takes three months,

3600
05:35:32,159 --> 05:35:35,159
but you're never going to do that anyway because you hate that world.

3601
05:35:36,159 --> 05:35:38,159
That's the second-class citizen part. That's exactly it.

3602
05:35:38,159 --> 05:35:41,159
But you don't want to be there, though.

3603
05:35:41,159 --> 05:35:44,159
To you, the two places are the same.

3604
05:35:44,159 --> 05:35:48,159
It's like you're a magical hermit and you don't feel the cold or something,

3605
05:35:48,159 --> 05:35:51,159
and it's like, well, here's a house that has no heat, but it's bigger.

3606
05:35:51,159 --> 05:35:56,159
But look at yourself. You're selling me this L2 that I'll never go back to L1 for.

3607
05:35:56,159 --> 05:36:00,159
What is that any different than using my current, quote-unquote, other network?

3608
05:36:00,159 --> 05:36:03,159
Then go back to that L2 that I'll never be able to go back to L1 to.

3609
05:36:03,159 --> 05:36:05,159
It's the same thing. There is no persuasion.

3610
05:36:05,159 --> 05:36:07,159
This is what I'm saying, though.

3611
05:36:07,159 --> 05:36:11,159
You're saying that Bitcoin SV is the same thing as the large block on L1.

3612
05:36:11,159 --> 05:36:13,159
I know. That's how you view it exactly. You view it that exact way.

3613
05:36:14,159 --> 05:36:16,159
I'm saying that you would view it.

3614
05:36:16,159 --> 05:36:19,159
This is important. You're right about this.

3615
05:36:19,159 --> 05:36:24,159
To some extent, I worry that the people will not come back,

3616
05:36:24,159 --> 05:36:28,159
and I think that this is actually killing large blockism and Bitcoin.

3617
05:36:28,159 --> 05:36:34,159
So I have yet another weird counterintuitive view from Paul that probably everyone will hate,

3618
05:36:34,159 --> 05:36:37,159
but then two years from now everyone will say, I always believed that.

3619
05:36:37,159 --> 05:36:40,159
So the view goes something like this.

3620
05:36:40,159 --> 05:36:43,159
It says something like, you split the vote.

3621
05:36:43,159 --> 05:36:46,159
When you make a new project, you split the vote,

3622
05:36:46,159 --> 05:36:49,159
and you reduce the incentive to solve the original problem on BTC,

3623
05:36:49,159 --> 05:36:51,159
which we would all prefer is to have everyone in the same network,

3624
05:36:51,159 --> 05:36:54,159
everyone be happy, united, Bitcoin versus the banks.

3625
05:36:54,159 --> 05:36:59,159
But when you split off, now the two networks go to war with each other, basically, forever,

3626
05:36:59,159 --> 05:37:01,159
and they come into each other's Twitter space.

3627
05:37:01,159 --> 05:37:05,159
They say things like, you have the wrong answer and blah, blah, blah.

3628
05:37:05,159 --> 05:37:07,159
You'll regret this.

3629
05:37:07,159 --> 05:37:10,159
They start to work at each other's thing,

3630
05:37:10,159 --> 05:37:16,159
and the process of reunification is delayed perhaps forever.

3631
05:37:16,159 --> 05:37:22,159
And because it's delayed, what it means is that we will never be able to cooperate

3632
05:37:22,159 --> 05:37:26,159
as united people against the banks,

3633
05:37:26,159 --> 05:37:30,159
and we will then be at a huge disadvantage relative to what we could have had,

3634
05:37:30,159 --> 05:37:33,159
possibly a permanent advantage and possibly one that is so decisive

3635
05:37:33,159 --> 05:37:37,159
that it means the entire Bitcoin project fails, where instead it would have succeeded.

3636
05:37:37,159 --> 05:37:43,159
So splitting the vote is a big deal because you're right.

3637
05:37:43,159 --> 05:37:48,159
What would be best for you would be to have the L1 blockchain be large block

3638
05:37:48,159 --> 05:37:51,159
and for that to succeed and defeat everyone else.

3639
05:37:51,159 --> 05:37:53,159
That would be what's best for you.

3640
05:37:53,159 --> 05:37:57,159
But what's not good for you is to launch your own project,

3641
05:37:57,159 --> 05:38:01,159
and then the market cap falls, and it sort of works for you,

3642
05:38:01,159 --> 05:38:04,159
but it is number 76 on coinmarketcap.com.

3643
05:38:04,159 --> 05:38:08,159
And the problem is never solved on BTC.

3644
05:38:08,159 --> 05:38:14,159
The problem of disagreement is never solved on BTC of what to do about the fact that people disagree

3645
05:38:14,159 --> 05:38:18,159
because what they do is just like the libertarian community splits the vote all the time.

3646
05:38:18,159 --> 05:38:20,159
It can never get organized.

3647
05:38:20,159 --> 05:38:24,159
If the libertarian community were smart, they could rule the country.

3648
05:38:24,159 --> 05:38:27,159
They would be literally the dictators of the country.

3649
05:38:27,159 --> 05:38:32,159
All they have to do, since they have 5% of the vote, I hope everyone is listening.

3650
05:38:32,159 --> 05:38:34,159
Someone send this recording.

3651
05:38:34,159 --> 05:38:38,159
This is the easiest thing in the world to do, but it can't be done because of, unfortunately,

3652
05:38:38,159 --> 05:38:42,159
I hate to say this, people like you, Hector, I don't mean this in a bad way, please hear me out,

3653
05:38:42,159 --> 05:38:48,159
which is what I'm saying is the winning strategy is the libertarians have 5% of the vote.

3654
05:38:48,159 --> 05:38:54,159
The margin of victory in a presidential election and most of these other elections is pretty narrow

3655
05:38:54,159 --> 05:38:58,159
such that the libertarian could decide unilaterally who would win.

3656
05:38:58,159 --> 05:39:00,159
So the libertarians all caucus.

3657
05:39:00,159 --> 05:39:08,159
They all meet, and they all agree to my plan, which is this is the part that doesn't work, so preview.

3658
05:39:08,159 --> 05:39:15,159
But they all agree to my plan, and the plan is we elect someone who negotiates, and they say,

3659
05:39:15,159 --> 05:39:22,159
I will meet – all of us will give 100% of our vote to whichever party gives us the most of our demands.

3660
05:39:22,159 --> 05:39:26,159
And we will put that person into power unilaterally.

3661
05:39:26,159 --> 05:39:30,159
So then you just go to the two people, the Democrat and Republican, and say, listen,

3662
05:39:30,159 --> 05:39:32,159
I have basically a big voting bloc.

3663
05:39:32,159 --> 05:39:34,159
It's 5% of the population.

3664
05:39:34,569 --> 05:39:37,409
It's enough for you to win.

3665
05:39:37,409 --> 05:39:40,689
Give us the most – what's the best you can do?

3666
05:39:40,689 --> 05:39:44,689
And the party will – the two, the Democrats and the Republicans will understand if this

3667
05:39:44,689 --> 05:39:45,689
is all believed.

3668
05:39:45,689 --> 05:39:53,109
They'll understand that they have to agree to everything on the list.

3669
05:39:53,109 --> 05:39:56,249
Because if they don't, they'll just lose the election, and the other person is outbidding

3670
05:39:56,249 --> 05:39:57,749
them.

3671
05:39:57,749 --> 05:40:02,729
So then by this logic, the libertarian party would become the – now, this is not going

3672
05:40:02,729 --> 05:40:04,009
to work in practice.

3673
05:40:04,448 --> 05:40:05,448
Why?

3674
05:40:05,448 --> 05:40:08,208
Because when you go to the convention and we say, what should be on the list, there's

3675
05:40:08,208 --> 05:40:11,609
all these people who say, well, this should be on the list, this shouldn't, and they

3676
05:40:11,609 --> 05:40:14,368
say, well, I'm – this is the party of principle, and I have to – and the principle

3677
05:40:14,368 --> 05:40:16,729
is losing elections.

3678
05:40:16,729 --> 05:40:20,769
That's the – the libertarian party is the party of principle, and that principle

3679
05:40:20,769 --> 05:40:26,089
is not getting what you want, splitting the vote, ensuring that neither the Democrats

3680
05:40:26,089 --> 05:40:32,688
nor the Republicans care about the libertarian vote, nor do they fear losing the libertarian

3681
05:40:32,688 --> 05:40:35,729
vote to their rival, because the libertarian vote is just not in play.

3682
05:40:35,729 --> 05:40:41,389
It's as if all libertarians were disenfranchised and lost the right to vote.

3683
05:40:41,389 --> 05:40:44,609
And that is what happens when you launch Bitcoin SV and you go off on your own.

3684
05:40:44,609 --> 05:40:49,969
You split the vote out, and now no one will care about large bloc-ism, because they know

3685
05:40:49,969 --> 05:40:51,889
you're not even in play.

3686
05:40:51,889 --> 05:40:57,249
You're not trying to get what you want in a cooperative way on L1, using my idea, which

3687
05:40:57,249 --> 05:41:01,049
gives you everything that you want, just don't realize it, no offense.

3688
05:41:01,049 --> 05:41:06,009
And you also aren't trying to – you also aren't trying to fight and move the whole

3689
05:41:06,009 --> 05:41:08,448
community, the BTC community, into large bloc-ism either.

3690
05:41:08,448 --> 05:41:14,049
You're just off on yourself, and you have a libertarian caucus, and every year the liberty

3691
05:41:14,049 --> 05:41:16,448
movement falls further and further behind.

3692
05:41:16,448 --> 05:41:22,289
If it weren't for people like whoever invented the internet and Satoshi and whatever, like

3693
05:41:22,289 --> 05:41:26,329
people who invented encryption, the liberty movement would suck.

3694
05:41:26,329 --> 05:41:31,929
Luckily for us, it's sort of going well, because like seven inventors are single-handedly

3695
05:41:31,929 --> 05:41:33,168
carrying it on their shoulders.

3696
05:41:33,168 --> 05:41:39,289
But that's what happens when you're on number 56 coin, is you split the vote out, and you

3697
05:41:39,289 --> 05:41:43,169
just ruin it for – you ruin it not only for yourselves, but also anyone who wants

3698
05:41:43,169 --> 05:41:44,169
competition.

3699
05:41:44,169 --> 05:41:45,848
It's exactly like the libertarian movement.

3700
05:41:45,848 --> 05:41:48,608
Well, it's kind of funny to think that we're ruining it, yet you guys are the ones still

3701
05:41:48,608 --> 05:41:54,009
trying to solve a scaling solution, yet meanwhile, in the same week, when you have this conversation,

3702
05:41:54,688 --> 05:41:58,608
BSV managed to do 110 million transactions in a 24-hour period, showing that Bitcoin

3703
05:41:58,608 --> 05:42:04,048
itself is a scalable solution, yet the ideology is getting in the way, not the technical limitations

3704
05:42:04,048 --> 05:42:05,048
of the protocol.

3705
05:42:05,048 --> 05:42:09,649
If you understand that it's not the technical limitation, it's not the issue.

3706
05:42:09,649 --> 05:42:10,649
You understand that?

3707
05:42:10,649 --> 05:42:11,649
Exactly.

3708
05:42:11,649 --> 05:42:14,328
It's going back to your ideology, and then your ideology breaks when you try to –

3709
05:42:14,328 --> 05:42:16,009
The ideology is not the issue.

3710
05:42:16,009 --> 05:42:17,968
The ideology is not the issue either.

3711
05:42:17,968 --> 05:42:18,968
The issue is they don't want to pay –

3712
05:42:18,968 --> 05:42:19,968
What's the issue?

3713
05:42:19,968 --> 05:42:20,968
Why are you raising the block size?

3714
05:42:20,968 --> 05:42:26,408
The issue is the blocks – people don't want to pay money to validate blocks of an

3715
05:42:26,408 --> 05:42:28,048
unlimited size.

3716
05:42:28,048 --> 05:42:31,328
Every transaction you broadcast is a cost.

3717
05:42:31,328 --> 05:42:34,848
It is a grievance against everyone else participating in the network.

3718
05:42:34,848 --> 05:42:35,848
That is the issue.

3719
05:42:35,848 --> 05:42:47,048
Hey, Paul, to your point about the libertarian party, about a month ago, I went to the biggest

3720
05:42:47,048 --> 05:42:56,688
libertarian conference in the United States, and I was expecting some DNC, RNC-type event,

3721
05:42:56,688 --> 05:43:00,089
and it was straight-up pitiful.

3722
05:43:00,089 --> 05:43:07,688
It was not even 20% the size of the Bitcoin conference, and I realized the Bitcoin has

3723
05:43:07,688 --> 05:43:09,729
eaten the libertarian party.

3724
05:43:09,729 --> 05:43:15,889
We are not a libertarian party, and so speaking to Austin's point earlier about number go

3725
05:43:15,889 --> 05:43:27,848
up and how important the price is as a Schelling point, Bitcoin has done with the ideas of

3726
05:43:27,848 --> 05:43:30,529
the libertarian party that they haven't been able to get done in 100 years.

3727
05:43:30,529 --> 05:43:34,529
We've done it 10 times more in a decade.

3728
05:43:34,529 --> 05:43:37,048
I completely, 100% agree.

3729
05:43:37,048 --> 05:43:41,248
It's unfortunate that I think most people view politics as a kind of venue where they

3730
05:43:41,248 --> 05:43:42,649
can perform.

3731
05:43:42,649 --> 05:43:45,968
If you're on the left, you let everyone know that you are very compassionate and you care

3732
05:43:45,968 --> 05:43:47,608
about the poor.

3733
05:43:47,608 --> 05:43:54,289
If you're on the right, you care a little bit more about being hardworking and standing

3734
05:43:54,289 --> 05:43:58,769
on your own two feet and not needing help from anyone, stuff like that.

3735
05:43:58,769 --> 05:44:03,729
In the libertarian community, the virtue signaling is you're willing to edgelord, or you're just

3736
05:44:03,729 --> 05:44:09,449
very creative, or you're just so independent that you would never need help from the government.

3737
05:44:09,449 --> 05:44:15,329
The reason Bitcoin has succeeded is because we actually have everyone united.

3738
05:44:15,329 --> 05:44:16,769
We have an actual plan.

3739
05:44:16,769 --> 05:44:19,928
In politics, you can't beat something with nothing.

3740
05:44:19,928 --> 05:44:26,609
You have to actually have something that you're supposed to do.

3741
05:44:26,609 --> 05:44:28,368
It's either something you do or you don't do.

3742
05:44:28,368 --> 05:44:34,489
In this case, it's like buy Bitcoin, own some Bitcoin, learn about Bitcoin, get connected

3743
05:44:34,489 --> 05:44:40,688
with the Bitcoin movement, and understand why it makes paying taxes a lot more voluntary

3744
05:44:40,688 --> 05:44:50,088
and why that matters, and why deputization of the SEC or banks has a stranglehold on

3745
05:44:50,088 --> 05:44:54,968
many other things, everything from art to the political parties and stuff.

3746
05:44:54,968 --> 05:45:00,648
We have an actual thing that people are united behind.

3747
05:45:00,648 --> 05:45:01,928
Teamwork is just too valuable.

3748
05:45:01,928 --> 05:45:05,368
There's no way you can win if you don't have a big team.

3749
05:45:05,368 --> 05:45:08,569
What Bitcoin does is it lets all kinds of people cooperate with each other.

3750
05:45:08,569 --> 05:45:13,209
If they may hate each other, they may really not like each other at all or not agree with

3751
05:45:13,209 --> 05:45:15,549
each other.

3752
05:45:15,549 --> 05:45:19,848
Since the Bitcoin node is only checking people's signature for each transaction, all of us

3753
05:45:19,848 --> 05:45:20,848
can cooperate.

3754
05:45:20,848 --> 05:45:27,609
Also, Satoshi's ingenious design of each transaction pays a different fee, but the fees add up

3755
05:45:27,609 --> 05:45:31,848
to one block header, which adds up to one chain, so it's all literally like a strength

3756
05:45:31,848 --> 05:45:33,648
in numbers thing.

3757
05:45:33,648 --> 05:45:40,449
Its design, of course, has many ingenious elements, and that is one of them.

3758
05:45:40,449 --> 05:45:45,648
The Libertarian Party is like therapy, really.

3759
05:45:45,648 --> 05:45:48,368
You go there and you feel better.

3760
05:45:48,368 --> 05:45:53,329
You feel good that people agree with you, but it is the party of principle, and that

3761
05:45:53,329 --> 05:45:55,569
principle is losing the election.

3762
05:45:55,569 --> 05:46:00,408
I just outlined how people vote Libertarian because they want to express dissatisfaction

3763
05:46:00,408 --> 05:46:05,848
with the two options, which I fully support, but I have something else to say, which is

3764
05:46:05,848 --> 05:46:09,729
as a game theorist, something you could do is better.

3765
05:46:09,729 --> 05:46:11,169
Don't ever vote third party.

3766
05:46:11,169 --> 05:46:14,449
Just always vote the incumbent out.

3767
05:46:14,449 --> 05:46:20,769
Every day when you go to vote on election day, everyone, this is Paul's wacky idea.

3768
05:46:20,769 --> 05:46:26,648
Just think to yourself, do I believe that this politician worked really hard every day

3769
05:46:26,648 --> 05:46:31,769
to do what's best for me, and they resisted corruption to the greatest extent possible,

3770
05:46:31,769 --> 05:46:38,848
and they worked so hard during their term, and the party told them to do whatever, but

3771
05:46:38,848 --> 05:46:44,449
they were like, I need to do what's best for my constituents, which could include cooperating

3772
05:46:44,449 --> 05:46:45,769
with the party, whatever.

3773
05:46:46,368 --> 05:46:50,449
If you're confident that they worked hard, then keep them in.

3774
05:46:50,449 --> 05:46:56,248
Otherwise, vote the incumbent out and vote the challenger in, and if everyone just did

3775
05:46:56,248 --> 05:47:00,128
that, then the whole country would improve.

3776
05:47:00,128 --> 05:47:02,368
This is much better than voting Libertarian.

3777
05:47:02,368 --> 05:47:06,889
Never vote, don't vote Libertarian as a protest vote.

3778
05:47:06,889 --> 05:47:08,968
Always vote the incumbent out.

3779
05:47:08,968 --> 05:47:11,489
Just bite the bullet if you don't prefer that party.

3780
05:47:11,808 --> 05:47:16,648
This is too important because it's not about that election, it's about setting a precedent

3781
05:47:16,648 --> 05:47:24,928
that lasts 10, 20 years that says our standards are very high, and if they're not met, you're

3782
05:47:24,928 --> 05:47:26,889
fired.

3783
05:47:26,889 --> 05:47:28,889
That's my other wacky thought.

3784
05:47:28,889 --> 05:47:30,729
Again, I don't know.

3785
05:47:30,729 --> 05:47:32,968
I see the world in a very, very different way.

3786
05:47:32,968 --> 05:47:37,729
A lot of people just say, well, I think this idea, this blockchain is better, so I'll just

3787
05:47:37,729 --> 05:47:38,729
go with it.

3788
05:47:38,729 --> 05:47:44,968
I have this weird view that involves a lot of stigma, shame, other people, network effects,

3789
05:47:44,968 --> 05:47:45,968
politics.

3790
05:47:45,968 --> 05:47:47,729
I have this really weird other view.

3791
05:47:47,729 --> 05:47:49,209
Some people say, oh, that's really interesting.

3792
05:47:49,209 --> 05:47:52,889
Other people say, that guy's crazy.

3793
05:47:52,889 --> 05:47:53,889
I think that's fine.

3794
05:47:53,889 --> 05:47:54,889
I'm fine with that.

3795
05:47:54,889 --> 05:47:59,968
But yeah, I don't think that when you're a Bitcoin SV and you go out into the wilderness

3796
05:47:59,968 --> 05:48:07,728
and you're the 56th coin or the 4,000th coin or whatever, all that does is make it more

3797
05:48:07,728 --> 05:48:18,649
difficult to actually achieve the philosophy and to have the two ... We want us to reduce

3798
05:48:18,649 --> 05:48:20,969
the cost of having the different philosophies compete.

3799
05:48:20,969 --> 05:48:23,608
We want it to be just like an ATM.

3800
05:48:23,608 --> 05:48:24,608
You can go there and get cash.

3801
05:48:24,608 --> 05:48:28,089
If you go into the strip club, you get some cash.

3802
05:48:28,209 --> 05:48:31,529
If you have too much cash because you've been working at the strip club, you deposit it,

3803
05:48:31,529 --> 05:48:33,128
you get checking account balance.

3804
05:48:33,128 --> 05:48:34,688
You go back and forth.

3805
05:48:34,688 --> 05:48:38,329
This helps everything cooperate and compete.

3806
05:48:38,329 --> 05:48:41,769
We don't want competition on irrelevant dimensions.

3807
05:48:41,769 --> 05:48:46,409
With Bitcoin SV, it's weighed down by the stigma of losing.

3808
05:48:46,409 --> 05:48:49,288
It's weighed down by the stigma of Craig is right.

3809
05:48:49,288 --> 05:48:51,449
All that should really be irrelevant.

3810
05:48:51,449 --> 05:48:54,808
It should not actually be important.

3811
05:48:54,808 --> 05:48:57,808
And the question about how to get the large blockers back.

3812
05:48:57,808 --> 05:49:03,089
I worry about that question back into BTC because now you sell and you are a bag holder

3813
05:49:03,089 --> 05:49:05,209
of something else.

3814
05:49:05,209 --> 05:49:10,409
I would say though that all the open source software is going to be copied.

3815
05:49:10,409 --> 05:49:17,048
So that's a big point is that not everyone is going to come willingly.

3816
05:49:17,048 --> 05:49:18,048
Some people will.

3817
05:49:18,048 --> 05:49:23,329
They work really hard and they'll paint the Sistine Chapel and then we'll control C, control

3818
05:49:23,329 --> 05:49:28,168
V, copy paste, and we'll have our own Sistine Chapel, except it'll be in Bitcoin, the number

3819
05:49:28,168 --> 05:49:29,928
one coin.

3820
05:49:29,928 --> 05:49:33,368
And you're not held prisoner there.

3821
05:49:33,368 --> 05:49:35,569
You can come and go as you please.

3822
05:49:35,569 --> 05:49:39,488
And so people will like that one more and then whatever, Michelangelo or whoever painted

3823
05:49:39,488 --> 05:49:40,488
that.

3824
05:49:40,488 --> 05:49:48,209
I think it was Michelangelo, but they'll go and maybe they'll shed a tear, but they'll

3825
05:49:48,209 --> 05:49:55,488
hang out in the Sistine Chapel because it's popular there and it's a Sistine Chapel.

3826
05:49:55,488 --> 05:50:04,608
So you could build whatever you want on Bitcoin SV and process 110,000 transactions per nanosecond.

3827
05:50:04,608 --> 05:50:08,748
That is going to be control C, control V, copy pasted.

3828
05:50:08,748 --> 05:50:13,969
So you can't copy and paste everything, but you know what, it's going to be a lot easier

3829
05:50:13,969 --> 05:50:19,608
to copy paste the software, open source software written by other people.

3830
05:50:19,608 --> 05:50:24,209
That's going to be easier than it is for Bitcoin SV to achieve the BTC network effect, you

3831
05:50:24,209 --> 05:50:25,209
know.

3832
05:50:25,209 --> 05:50:31,928
The network effect that you're wanting is the big blocker network effect.

3833
05:50:31,928 --> 05:50:35,128
You wish that they would come here, that's why you're creating BIP300, because you want

3834
05:50:35,128 --> 05:50:36,128
them to come here.

3835
05:50:36,128 --> 05:50:41,769
But yet you're just then discrediting their whole idea because for some reason the market

3836
05:50:41,769 --> 05:50:45,649
has chosen against them, which is, you know, I would say questionable at best based on

3837
05:50:45,649 --> 05:50:47,649
what we've seen in terms of the market.

3838
05:50:47,649 --> 05:50:52,469
So I don't think that people have chosen against large blockism, the philosophy.

3839
05:50:52,469 --> 05:50:54,969
I think what they've really chosen against is what I'm talking about.

3840
05:50:54,969 --> 05:50:56,788
They don't want people voting third party.

3841
05:50:56,788 --> 05:51:01,409
They don't want 50,000 different monies.

3842
05:51:01,409 --> 05:51:03,009
It's better to have a team.

3843
05:51:03,009 --> 05:51:06,168
And I think that's the problem with Bitcoin Cash.

3844
05:51:06,168 --> 05:51:09,009
It had many problems that we could put into a giant list, which I did.

3845
05:51:09,009 --> 05:51:12,769
And then I went on that Bitcoin Cash podcast recently so that people are still retweeting

3846
05:51:12,769 --> 05:51:14,288
it so people can find it.

3847
05:51:14,288 --> 05:51:18,009
You can hear all about my list of the huge problems with Bitcoin Cash, of which there

3848
05:51:18,009 --> 05:51:19,009
are very, very many.

3849
05:51:19,009 --> 05:51:23,928
But one of them, the big one, is the hard fork.

3850
05:51:23,928 --> 05:51:27,569
Your biggest problem, you're trying to solve the biggest problem with Bitcoin right now.

3851
05:51:27,569 --> 05:51:31,569
Your BIP300, you feel, is the thing that's going to take Bitcoin to the next level.

3852
05:51:31,569 --> 05:51:32,569
Otherwise you wouldn't be doing it.

3853
05:51:32,569 --> 05:51:37,969
Therefore, that's your biggest problem, existential threat of Bitcoin.

3854
05:51:37,969 --> 05:51:42,368
If you guys don't get past this hurdle, you'll never be able to be usable.

3855
05:51:42,368 --> 05:51:47,009
I think people are coming around on this and they will eventually...

3856
05:51:47,009 --> 05:51:53,248
I think it's only a matter of time and I'm trying to speed it up because I have nothing

3857
05:51:53,248 --> 05:51:54,889
else to do with my time, I guess.

3858
05:51:54,889 --> 05:51:55,889
But I think that...

3859
05:51:55,889 --> 05:51:57,248
I'm not saying that's great.

3860
05:51:57,248 --> 05:52:01,928
You think that's your way of solving it because you believe Bitcoin is Bitcoin and whatever.

3861
05:52:01,928 --> 05:52:07,769
But I'm saying to me, as an outsider looking in, it's like trying to watch people travel

3862
05:52:07,769 --> 05:52:08,769
without using their feet.

3863
05:52:08,769 --> 05:52:12,168
You're using your hand, you're sliding, you're gliding, but everything but using the most

3864
05:52:12,168 --> 05:52:13,168
obvious thing.

3865
05:52:13,168 --> 05:52:14,168
And I don't understand why.

3866
05:52:14,168 --> 05:52:18,649
Yet for some reason, you guys think that you cannot walk with your feet.

3867
05:52:18,649 --> 05:52:19,928
It looks weird from the outside.

3868
05:52:19,928 --> 05:52:20,928
And that's what really...

3869
05:52:20,928 --> 05:52:24,329
If you guys had done what you guys have done, scaled the blockchain and allowed for this

3870
05:52:24,329 --> 05:52:28,488
ability to happen from the beginning and keep it going, you would not have had this big

3871
05:52:28,488 --> 05:52:32,449
issue that you guys call crypto, this whole altcoin issue.

3872
05:52:32,449 --> 05:52:39,048
And I repeated several times why people are not using their feet, so to speak.

3873
05:52:39,048 --> 05:52:43,608
I have explained many times that it's the difference in the cost of running the layer

3874
05:52:43,608 --> 05:52:44,608
one full node.

3875
05:52:44,608 --> 05:52:45,608
That is the point.

3876
05:52:45,608 --> 05:52:46,608
That's exactly what I'm saying.

3877
05:52:46,608 --> 05:52:47,928
You kill your own point, though.

3878
05:52:47,928 --> 05:52:48,928
You kill your own point.

3879
05:52:48,928 --> 05:52:51,329
But nothing else is in dispute, though.

3880
05:52:51,329 --> 05:52:52,329
Right.

3881
05:52:52,329 --> 05:52:53,329
I understand that.

3882
05:52:53,329 --> 05:52:55,329
I'm saying, but you making that point, you're saying that's the reason why.

3883
05:52:55,329 --> 05:52:56,329
And I understand.

3884
05:52:56,329 --> 05:52:57,329
That's exactly, I agree.

3885
05:52:57,329 --> 05:52:58,329
That's exactly the reason why.

3886
05:52:58,329 --> 05:53:01,889
But you guys are going to kill that exact point that you guys are advocating for today.

3887
05:53:02,329 --> 05:53:06,849
I mean, it's a 600,000 every single, you know, every single backlog, the backlog is continuously

3888
05:53:06,849 --> 05:53:07,849
full forever.

3889
05:53:07,849 --> 05:53:11,128
The mempool is always full and constantly being full, right, constantly added to, you

3890
05:53:11,128 --> 05:53:16,128
know, and, you know, killing non-mining nodes off because they can't keep up with the with

3891
05:53:16,128 --> 05:53:17,128
the memory requirement or whatever.

3892
05:53:17,128 --> 05:53:18,128
Right.

3893
05:53:18,128 --> 05:53:19,128
Like you just have that massive influx.

3894
05:53:19,128 --> 05:53:21,808
Like I just said, I laid out the American workforce doing that every two weeks huddle

3895
05:53:21,808 --> 05:53:23,928
thing, like just the huddle thing.

3896
05:53:23,928 --> 05:53:25,589
That knocks you back years.

3897
05:53:25,589 --> 05:53:31,608
Just the American workforce doing a huddle, not even making any sort of economic transaction.

3898
05:53:31,608 --> 05:53:32,608
You said every two weeks.

3899
05:53:32,608 --> 05:53:33,608
Yeah, sure.

3900
05:53:33,608 --> 05:53:34,608
Exactly.

3901
05:53:34,608 --> 05:53:37,608
So they just change it to every six weeks or something and then it works perfectly.

3902
05:53:37,608 --> 05:53:40,608
But I'm saying, but, you know, I'm taking the idea of what people get paid.

3903
05:53:40,608 --> 05:53:41,608
They get paid every two weeks.

3904
05:53:41,608 --> 05:53:43,608
And I'm saying that, you know, they put some in savings, put some in check.

3905
05:53:43,608 --> 05:53:47,608
But now, if it doesn't work, as you pointed out, that rate doesn't work, but they'll do

3906
05:53:47,608 --> 05:53:48,608
something that works.

3907
05:53:48,608 --> 05:53:51,969
How often do people, there's plenty of people who only contribute to like a brokerage account

3908
05:53:51,969 --> 05:53:56,608
like a few times in their entire life, but many people never can make any contribution.

3909
05:53:56,608 --> 05:53:58,608
Was it the point of Bitcoin being a savings account?

3910
05:53:58,608 --> 05:54:00,608
And that's where you put your hard money, your sound money?

3911
05:54:00,608 --> 05:54:02,608
Yeah, but you could do that.

3912
05:54:02,608 --> 05:54:03,608
You don't have to do it.

3913
05:54:03,608 --> 05:54:05,608
There's no law that says you have to do that.

3914
05:54:05,608 --> 05:54:08,608
Look, you're already trying to justify the inability of its scalability because you're

3915
05:54:08,608 --> 05:54:10,608
saying, oh, we should be doing it every month.

3916
05:54:10,608 --> 05:54:13,608
So I'm willing to lose price appreciation for 30 days because I only can only do it

3917
05:54:13,608 --> 05:54:16,608
every 30 days because I'm not rich enough to do it every day or every two weeks or every

3918
05:54:16,608 --> 05:54:17,608
six weeks.

3919
05:54:17,608 --> 05:54:18,608
Why would you lose price appreciation?

3920
05:54:18,608 --> 05:54:19,608
Why would you lose price appreciation?

3921
05:54:19,608 --> 05:54:22,608
Because you're telling me to wait 30 days to do the next purchase.

3922
05:54:22,608 --> 05:54:24,608
There's a one to one peg, though.

3923
05:54:24,608 --> 05:54:25,608
It's exactly the same.

3924
05:54:25,608 --> 05:54:27,608
You earn your Bitcoin on L2.

3925
05:54:27,608 --> 05:54:28,608
It's the same.

3926
05:54:28,608 --> 05:54:30,608
There's no loss of anything.

3927
05:54:30,608 --> 05:54:31,608
Yeah, that's it.

3928
05:54:31,608 --> 05:54:35,608
It's like you're also you're also the assumption that transaction fees won't go up.

3929
05:54:35,608 --> 05:54:38,608
But we obviously see through history any sort of usage.

3930
05:54:38,608 --> 05:54:40,608
His transaction fees go through the roof.

3931
05:54:40,608 --> 05:54:41,608
They go higher every time.

3932
05:54:41,608 --> 05:54:45,608
Hector, did you understand the point he just made about the one to one peg?

3933
05:54:45,608 --> 05:54:46,608
Yes.

3934
05:54:46,608 --> 05:54:49,608
You can buy L2 coins and then eventually make them L1 because they're good as they're good

3935
05:54:49,608 --> 05:54:51,608
as L1 coins is what he's saying.

3936
05:54:51,608 --> 05:54:53,608
Yeah, they exchange at the same rate.

3937
05:54:53,608 --> 05:54:56,608
It's like putting a $20 bill into an ATM.

3938
05:54:57,608 --> 05:54:59,608
There's no price appreciation.

3939
05:54:59,608 --> 05:55:04,608
There's no question of like, oh, I better I need to put this $20 bill into the ATM fast.

3940
05:55:04,608 --> 05:55:05,608
It doesn't matter.

3941
05:55:05,608 --> 05:55:11,608
Hector, if there's a large block sidechain, everything that a large block Bitcoiner wants

3942
05:55:11,608 --> 05:55:15,608
will be available on the sidechain on an opt in basis.

3943
05:55:15,608 --> 05:55:22,608
And they will have the option to peg back into main chain if they want to.

3944
05:55:22,608 --> 05:55:24,608
They don't have to.

3945
05:55:24,608 --> 05:55:29,608
So everything you like about BSV or BCH will be available as a sidechain.

3946
05:55:29,608 --> 05:55:36,608
Plus, if you ever want to keep some or all of your money on main chain because it's cheaper

3947
05:55:36,608 --> 05:55:40,608
to validate there and therefore more decentralized, you'll have that option.

3948
05:55:40,608 --> 05:55:47,608
So drivechain just gives people more options with no mandatory change to what they currently have.

3949
05:55:48,608 --> 05:55:53,608
But you guys got to, again, realize that you're doing it for that for that idea that you should

3950
05:55:53,608 --> 05:55:54,608
be able to have a copy of the main chain.

3951
05:55:54,608 --> 05:55:58,608
But then you guys are even you guys have even admitted that in that event where there's

3952
05:55:58,608 --> 05:56:03,608
a lot of usage and that ability to be able to move back to L1 is probably very difficult

3953
05:56:03,608 --> 05:56:05,608
or very expensive.

3954
05:56:05,608 --> 05:56:06,608
What is the point?

3955
05:56:06,608 --> 05:56:09,608
What is the point of having the ideology of being able to have a copy when that copy is

3956
05:56:09,608 --> 05:56:11,608
too expensive for me to even use?

3957
05:56:11,608 --> 05:56:14,608
Yeah, I can make a copy of it and have it here and look at it and, you know, admire

3958
05:56:14,608 --> 05:56:15,608
it from afar.

3959
05:56:15,608 --> 05:56:18,608
But I can't pay you already.

3960
05:56:18,608 --> 05:56:20,608
He already addressed that when he explained.

3961
05:56:20,608 --> 05:56:23,608
Yeah, but his assumption is that Bitcoin will be five dollar transactions, which I think

3962
05:56:23,608 --> 05:56:25,608
is a very, very bad assumption.

3963
05:56:25,608 --> 05:56:26,608
May I?

3964
05:56:26,608 --> 05:56:32,608
Because you address that point squarely when he said that some people want a Honda Civic

3965
05:56:32,608 --> 05:56:35,608
and others want a more expensive car.

3966
05:56:35,608 --> 05:56:41,609
So let people choose which car they want rather than force everyone into Honda Civics.

3967
05:56:41,609 --> 05:56:42,609
No, no.

3968
05:56:42,609 --> 05:56:43,609
You guys are forcing people.

3969
05:56:44,609 --> 05:56:47,609
You guys are forcing people into GeoMetros when everyone should be having the same car

3970
05:56:47,609 --> 05:56:48,609
is what I'm advocating for.

3971
05:56:48,609 --> 05:56:49,609
You're saying, no, no, no.

3972
05:56:49,609 --> 05:56:50,609
You're not good enough.

3973
05:56:50,609 --> 05:56:53,609
You need to get on the bicycle instead of getting on the actual car.

3974
05:56:53,609 --> 05:56:54,609
That's what you're telling people.

3975
05:56:54,609 --> 05:56:57,609
What do you think is so bad about being on L2?

3976
05:56:57,609 --> 05:57:01,609
You're the one who is in favor of the L2 experience.

3977
05:57:01,609 --> 05:57:03,609
You're in favor of the large block experience.

3978
05:57:03,609 --> 05:57:05,609
Why do you think L2 is bad?

3979
05:57:05,609 --> 05:57:07,609
To me, it's exactly the same thing.

3980
05:57:07,609 --> 05:57:08,609
You could rewrite.

3981
05:57:08,609 --> 05:57:14,609
I could write you a piece of software that just staples the L1 block and L2 block together

3982
05:57:14,609 --> 05:57:16,609
and calls that a block.

3983
05:57:16,609 --> 05:57:18,609
And it would look exactly the same as Bitcoin SV.

3984
05:57:18,609 --> 05:57:21,609
And I don't understand why you have some kind of problem with that.

3985
05:57:21,609 --> 05:57:23,609
It's exactly the same as what you say that you want.

3986
05:57:23,609 --> 05:57:25,609
What is so bad about being on the L2?

3987
05:57:25,609 --> 05:57:27,609
Why do you even want to go on L1?

3988
05:57:27,609 --> 05:57:30,609
Because then what is the point of the L1?

3989
05:57:30,609 --> 05:57:36,609
What makes you so protective of L1 that you need to keep it at its side?

3990
05:57:36,609 --> 05:57:38,609
There's obviously some properties that you care for.

3991
05:57:38,609 --> 05:57:39,609
A bunch of people complained about it.

3992
05:57:39,609 --> 05:57:41,609
And I thought, well, listen to this.

3993
05:57:41,609 --> 05:57:42,609
These two people.

3994
05:57:42,609 --> 05:57:44,609
You think there's no benefit to L1?

3995
05:57:44,609 --> 05:57:46,609
These two people that are each complaining can both get what they want.

3996
05:57:46,609 --> 05:57:47,609
They're fools.

3997
05:57:47,609 --> 05:57:51,609
And this is a multibillion dollar industry that I own an enormous percent.

3998
05:57:51,609 --> 05:57:54,609
And so then I wrote a little post about it in November 2015.

3999
05:57:54,609 --> 05:57:56,609
But I would appreciate if you'd answer my question.

4000
05:57:56,609 --> 05:57:58,609
Why do you even want to go back to L1?

4001
05:57:58,609 --> 05:58:01,609
To you, it's the same thing.

4002
05:58:01,609 --> 05:58:03,609
Well, the idea of Bitcoin, right?

4003
05:58:03,609 --> 05:58:06,609
The idea of Bitcoin is the self-sovereignty, the ability to do things as you please.

4004
05:58:06,609 --> 05:58:07,609
You still have all that.

4005
05:58:07,609 --> 05:58:08,609
You still have all that.

4006
05:58:08,609 --> 05:58:10,609
How do you have all that if you're not on L1?

4007
05:58:10,609 --> 05:58:13,609
Well, why do you say that you don't have it?

4008
05:58:13,609 --> 05:58:15,609
Because L2 is also a blockchain.

4009
05:58:15,609 --> 05:58:18,609
I don't understand why you don't understand that you have it on L2.

4010
05:58:18,609 --> 05:58:20,609
It's like saying you just merge together.

4011
05:58:20,609 --> 05:58:24,609
Like show me strike transactions as L1 transactions on my interface, but they're not really L1 transactions.

4012
05:58:24,609 --> 05:58:26,609
They're actually Lightning transactions, but don't tell the end user that.

4013
05:58:26,609 --> 05:58:28,609
Like that's what you're telling me you're going to do.

4014
05:58:28,609 --> 05:58:30,609
That's not really what's occurring.

4015
05:58:31,609 --> 05:58:34,609
Like being technically dishonest.

4016
05:58:34,609 --> 05:58:38,609
Not at all. Not at all. I don't know. I don't think so at all.

4017
05:58:38,609 --> 05:58:44,609
The sidechain is an L2 of L1, but it is an L1 of its own network.

4018
05:58:44,609 --> 05:58:46,609
It has its own blockchain.

4019
05:58:46,609 --> 05:58:49,609
Exactly. It's its own network. Why do I want to be on a secondary network?

4020
05:58:49,609 --> 05:58:54,609
Why are you so adamant about Bitcoin yet telling me that L2 is just fine?

4021
05:58:54,609 --> 05:58:59,609
You're for some reason protecting Bitcoin for some reason, but yet you're saying it's just as good as L2.

4022
05:58:59,609 --> 05:59:05,609
Then you either believe that L2 is superior or equal to Bitcoin, and therefore Bitcoin is not worthy, therefore I should just make it L2.

4023
05:59:05,609 --> 05:59:12,609
Or you somehow are wanting to just not want to agree that Bitcoin is superior to your L2.

4024
05:59:12,609 --> 05:59:14,609
Like you have to pick one.

4025
05:59:14,609 --> 05:59:16,609
No, you don't.

4026
05:59:16,609 --> 05:59:20,609
I don't understand what you're talking about in the slightest, which I find to be very interesting.

4027
05:59:20,609 --> 05:59:30,609
From your point of view, you're saying I run software called Bitcoin SV, the software, whatever.

4028
05:59:31,121 --> 05:59:40,121
Or you don't. And the really weird thing is the Bitcoin SV people are not in favor of people running nodes unless they are also miners.

4029
05:59:40,121 --> 05:59:49,121
So presumably you run some kind of version of, you run Electrum SV or something, right? You get a Merkle path. You don't even have the blockchain. Right?

4030
05:59:49,121 --> 05:59:51,121
Right.

4031
05:59:51,121 --> 05:59:58,121
So to you, I could give you a version of Electrum SV that does exactly the same thing that it's currently doing.

4032
05:59:59,121 --> 06:00:03,121
You wouldn't even notice that it was an L2 instead of an L1.

4033
06:00:03,121 --> 06:00:10,121
Exactly. I wouldn't notice it through the interface. But what is it querying? Where is it getting the source? It's not getting it from the Bitcoin network, is it?

4034
06:00:10,121 --> 06:00:14,121
We get it from a piece of software that is very similar to Bitcoin SV.

4035
06:00:14,121 --> 06:00:20,121
No, no. But where is the software getting the source from? Where is the data coming from? Where is it being fed from? Is it being fed from the Bitcoin network or your secondary network?

4036
06:00:20,121 --> 06:00:26,121
I'm honestly racking my brain to try to think of anything that will even be different about the Bitcoin SV.

4037
06:00:26,121 --> 06:00:30,121
Well, the source. The source of the data. Where is the source of the data coming from?

4038
06:00:30,121 --> 06:00:34,121
It's the other nodes, of course. Whoever is locked on L2.

4039
06:00:34,121 --> 06:00:39,121
No, but where is the ultimate source of truth of this data? It comes from somewhere. It origins somewhere. You can't just say another node doesn't.

4040
06:00:40,121 --> 06:00:46,121
To use the drivechain node, you need to run the L1 node.

4041
06:00:46,121 --> 06:00:52,121
I will tell you why it's the same and why you should consider this.

4042
06:00:52,121 --> 06:00:56,121
Because I'm listening to the fees, the fees, the fees.

4043
06:00:56,121 --> 06:01:04,121
But if you are on drivechain, running a drivechain node, actually you must run the L1 node.

4044
06:01:04,121 --> 06:01:11,121
For what you're questioning is there. You get the security, you have the source from the L1.

4045
06:01:11,121 --> 06:01:15,121
So even the mining is drivechain using the same mining.

4046
06:01:15,121 --> 06:01:20,121
The escrow deposit is the Bitcoin, is BTC.

4047
06:01:20,121 --> 06:01:23,121
And you use BTC on L2.

4048
06:01:24,121 --> 06:01:34,121
It's no different than L1. Just you remove the overload of what you are saying, paying high fees.

4049
06:01:34,121 --> 06:01:41,121
Because I have a question for you. What do you think will happen if all the activity goes to drivechains?

4050
06:01:41,121 --> 06:01:44,121
What will happen with the fees on L1?

4051
06:01:47,121 --> 06:01:50,121
I have a question for Hector that I think might help.

4052
06:01:51,121 --> 06:01:56,121
Can he first answer my question, please?

4053
06:02:00,121 --> 06:02:04,121
Hector, did you hear the question from the speaker?

4054
06:02:04,121 --> 06:02:08,121
Yes, people wouldn't do that. There's plenty of L2s already existing everywhere.

4055
06:02:08,121 --> 06:02:11,121
Ethereum has L2s. You had Liquid on it.

4056
06:02:11,121 --> 06:02:16,121
Can you please answer clearly my question?

4057
06:02:16,121 --> 06:02:23,121
What will happen if all the activity from L1 or all the activity goes to drivechains?

4058
06:02:23,121 --> 06:02:26,121
And what will happen with the fees on L1?

4059
06:02:26,121 --> 06:02:27,121
That's my question.

4060
06:02:27,121 --> 06:02:30,121
Like I just told you right now, like Ordinals became a thing and it boosted L1 transactions.

4061
06:02:30,121 --> 06:02:34,121
You've had blocks, you've had all these L2s and no one wanted to go there.

4062
06:02:34,121 --> 06:02:36,121
Because they're showing that they want L1 activity.

4063
06:02:36,121 --> 06:02:39,121
Can you please just answer? Okay, if you don't want, I will answer.

4064
06:02:39,121 --> 06:02:42,121
The fees on L1 will go to zero.

4065
06:02:43,121 --> 06:02:46,121
If fees to L1 go to zero, Bitcoin breaks.

4066
06:02:47,121 --> 06:02:49,121
Your mining infrastructure goes to zero.

4067
06:02:49,121 --> 06:02:51,121
The fees from the drivechain going back to L1.

4068
06:02:51,121 --> 06:02:55,121
But I want to say this to Hector, with all due respect.

4069
06:02:55,121 --> 06:03:00,121
If you believe that a bigger blockchain is enough security for you,

4070
06:03:00,121 --> 06:03:05,121
and then in a drivechain world, what's wrong with just staying on the bigger blockchain?

4071
06:03:05,121 --> 06:03:07,121
Like, what's wrong with that?

4072
06:03:08,121 --> 06:03:12,121
You can completely ignore the idea that some people go to L1.

4073
06:03:12,121 --> 06:03:16,121
You can completely stay in the bigger blockchain because you believe that that's enough security for you.

4074
06:03:16,121 --> 06:03:19,121
Which is fine. It's okay. People are different.

4075
06:03:19,121 --> 06:03:22,121
They can believe that certain security is enough for them.

4076
06:03:22,121 --> 06:03:25,121
So if that's enough security for you, to have a bigger blockchain,

4077
06:03:25,121 --> 06:03:28,121
and you believe that that's enough, you can just completely stay in that one.

4078
06:03:28,121 --> 06:03:32,121
You can completely ignore what's going on in L1 as if it doesn't even exist.

4079
06:03:32,121 --> 06:03:35,121
Exactly though. You just made the point.

4080
06:03:35,121 --> 06:03:38,121
If you believe that the majority of people will have to use this.

4081
06:03:38,121 --> 06:03:41,121
What I want to say is, what's the benefit then?

4082
06:03:41,121 --> 06:03:43,121
Your question is, well, what's the benefit of even having an L1?

4083
06:03:43,121 --> 06:03:48,121
And I would say the benefit is, some people believe that a bigger blockchain is not enough security for them,

4084
06:03:48,121 --> 06:03:51,121
and they want to have a smaller blockchain.

4085
06:03:51,121 --> 06:03:53,121
So what benefit do you get?

4086
06:03:53,121 --> 06:03:55,121
There you go. You just answered the question.

4087
06:03:55,121 --> 06:03:57,121
I'll just finish, then I'll answer. I promise.

4088
06:03:57,121 --> 06:04:02,121
So you get the benefit of having the same asset that both people can choose.

4089
06:04:02,121 --> 06:04:06,121
For example, somebody might believe that a smaller blockchain is important to them,

4090
06:04:06,121 --> 06:04:10,121
and you might believe, no, that's not needed, and you have a bigger blockchain.

4091
06:04:10,121 --> 06:04:13,121
You can stay on your chain, you can get everything you want,

4092
06:04:13,121 --> 06:04:18,121
plus you get the same asset that other people want on a smaller chain, so everybody wins.

4093
06:04:18,121 --> 06:04:24,121
I don't see any negative for you in a drivechain world to completely stay in a bigger blockchain,

4094
06:04:24,121 --> 06:04:26,121
except you do get a benefit.

4095
06:04:26,121 --> 06:04:32,121
Your benefit is, now other people can use the same asset in other ways that you might not.

4096
06:04:32,121 --> 06:04:37,121
Because they have to accept the L2 version of that to be able to do that asset thing, right?

4097
06:04:37,121 --> 06:04:39,121
I'm sorry, what was that?

4098
06:04:39,121 --> 06:04:42,121
He said you have to accept the L2 version.

4099
06:04:42,121 --> 06:04:48,121
He thinks that there is something about a large block sidechain,

4100
06:04:48,121 --> 06:04:53,121
which is inferior to a large block layer 1, even though…

4101
06:04:53,121 --> 06:04:58,121
You can completely ignore it, as if to you it's the L1, right?

4102
06:04:58,121 --> 06:05:00,121
You don't even use any other chain.

4103
06:05:00,121 --> 06:05:03,121
To you, that's the L1, and that's the only chain that matters to you.

4104
06:05:03,121 --> 06:05:07,121
It's arbitrary that there is even another layer.

4105
06:05:07,121 --> 06:05:09,121
You don't even have to care about it.

4106
06:05:09,121 --> 06:05:13,121
You just said though, if L2 is good enough, which means it's inferior to L1,

4107
06:05:13,121 --> 06:05:15,121
therefore you believe there's a trade-off there.

4108
06:05:15,121 --> 06:05:18,121
To you it might be, but to somebody else it might not be.

4109
06:05:18,121 --> 06:05:20,121
So you don't believe L2 is inferior then?

4110
06:05:20,121 --> 06:05:25,121
I think that other people can have their choice, and if it's inferior to you…

4111
06:05:25,121 --> 06:05:28,121
The question is direct. Do you believe L2 is inferior to L1 or not?

4112
06:05:28,121 --> 06:05:31,121
It depends on your security trade-offs.

4113
06:05:31,121 --> 06:05:33,121
I'm asking you. Do you believe that?

4114
06:05:33,121 --> 06:05:36,121
That's what I'm saying. It depends on the security trade-offs.

4115
06:05:36,121 --> 06:05:41,121
Hold on. I just wanted to give a chance, because we've been going back and forth.

4116
06:05:41,121 --> 06:05:44,121
This has been very interesting, but let's give the mic to Reindahl,

4117
06:05:44,121 --> 06:05:47,121
because he hasn't spoken in a while.

4118
06:05:48,121 --> 06:05:51,121
I…

4119
06:05:55,121 --> 06:05:58,121
Reindahl, are you there?

4120
06:05:58,121 --> 06:06:00,121
Yeah, can you hear me?

4121
06:06:00,121 --> 06:06:01,121
Yes. Go ahead.

4122
06:06:01,121 --> 06:06:06,121
Okay. Yeah, so I was coming up to talk about where does the information come from

4123
06:06:06,121 --> 06:06:12,121
for your Electrum SV node in alert block sidechain.

4124
06:06:12,121 --> 06:06:18,121
I assume that you would still have sidechain nodes that have to aggregate transactions

4125
06:06:18,121 --> 06:06:22,121
and assemble blocks, and then they, instead of doing proof-of-work mining,

4126
06:06:22,121 --> 06:06:28,121
they bid for inclusion in the main chain through blind merge mining, right?

4127
06:06:28,121 --> 06:06:33,121
So the same way that right now in something like Bcash or Bitcoin SV,

4128
06:06:33,121 --> 06:06:39,121
you can have lots and lots of users that have SPV clients,

4129
06:06:39,121 --> 06:06:42,121
and they connect to full nodes that are also mining,

4130
06:06:42,121 --> 06:06:45,121
and those full nodes serve them SPV proofs,

4131
06:06:45,121 --> 06:06:49,121
and then those full nodes receive transactions from them,

4132
06:06:49,121 --> 06:06:51,121
aggregate them into blocks,

4133
06:06:51,121 --> 06:06:54,121
and then grind on nonces to try to get them included in the chain.

4134
06:06:54,121 --> 06:07:01,121
You'd have the same architecture in a large block drivechain or sidechain,

4135
06:07:01,121 --> 06:07:07,121
where you would have some number of full nodes that actually see all the transactions,

4136
06:07:07,121 --> 06:07:10,121
they aggregate all the transactions, they put them in blocks,

4137
06:07:10,121 --> 06:07:14,121
but then instead of grinding nonces for SHA-256,

4138
06:07:14,121 --> 06:07:19,121
they just bid for inclusion in the main chain,

4139
06:07:19,121 --> 06:07:22,121
but those nodes have the whole big block sidechain,

4140
06:07:22,121 --> 06:07:24,121
so those are like the big BP servers,

4141
06:07:24,121 --> 06:07:32,121
and they serve SPV proofs to users of the sidechain that don't want to run full nodes.

4142
06:07:32,121 --> 06:07:41,121
So if your use case is one where you're comfortable with SPV-level verification,

4143
06:07:41,121 --> 06:07:44,121
then that could be a really great scenario for you

4144
06:07:44,121 --> 06:07:47,121
because you get the throughput and the capacity of large blocks,

4145
06:07:47,121 --> 06:07:50,121
and if you're happy with SPV-level verification, then you're good.

4146
06:07:50,121 --> 06:07:57,121
If you want to be able to validate the whole chain from Genesis on low-end computers,

4147
06:07:57,121 --> 06:08:00,121
then that's not a good sidechain from you.

4148
06:08:00,121 --> 06:08:05,121
In terms of why have a common main chain,

4149
06:08:05,121 --> 06:08:10,121
it could be that lots of people are using the big block sidechain for payments and coffee

4150
06:08:10,121 --> 06:08:12,121
and just normal payment activity,

4151
06:08:12,121 --> 06:08:17,121
but maybe there's another sidechain which does interesting ZK stuff for privacy,

4152
06:08:17,121 --> 06:08:20,121
and it has a different block size, it has different capabilities,

4153
06:08:20,121 --> 06:08:25,121
or maybe you have another sidechain that's just really, really optimized for assets,

4154
06:08:25,121 --> 06:08:30,121
and it has lots of really cool capabilities for doing interesting DEXs

4155
06:08:30,121 --> 06:08:33,121
or doing interesting derivative markets or something.

4156
06:08:33,121 --> 06:08:37,121
And maybe these different networks have different block sizes,

4157
06:08:37,121 --> 06:08:41,121
they have different validation requirements, they have different semantics,

4158
06:08:41,121 --> 06:08:48,121
but if you have N different sidechains, each one of them have to run the main chain node,

4159
06:08:48,121 --> 06:08:51,121
so you still want to keep the main chain node cheap to validate

4160
06:08:51,121 --> 06:08:57,121
because the big block sidechain, you're going to have big blocks to validate plus main chain.

4161
06:08:57,121 --> 06:09:02,121
The crazy ZK sidechain, maybe you need lots of GPUs to be generating proofs,

4162
06:09:02,121 --> 06:09:04,121
and you also need main chain.

4163
06:09:04,121 --> 06:09:09,121
The crazy asset thing, maybe you need lots of storage to store all this asset metadata

4164
06:09:09,121 --> 06:09:10,121
and also the main chain.

4165
06:09:10,121 --> 06:09:16,121
And so the main chain ends up being the common thing that everybody has to validate,

4166
06:09:16,121 --> 06:09:17,121
so you need it to be cheap,

4167
06:09:17,121 --> 06:09:20,121
and then it ends up being the settlement layer between all of them.

4168
06:09:20,121 --> 06:09:22,121
I think that's the theory.

4169
06:09:22,121 --> 06:09:25,121
We'll see how it actually plays out.

4170
06:09:25,121 --> 06:09:26,121
That was beautiful.

4171
06:09:26,121 --> 06:09:29,121
That was perfectly right.

4172
06:09:29,121 --> 06:09:31,121
Thank you, Reindahl.

4173
06:09:31,121 --> 06:09:33,121
So then how does that cross hopping happen?

4174
06:09:33,121 --> 06:09:37,121
Say I have asset layer version and I want to use big block version,

4175
06:09:37,121 --> 06:09:39,121
how do I get my asset layer token to big block token?

4176
06:09:39,121 --> 06:09:45,121
So I think what would happen is you're going to have market makers

4177
06:09:45,121 --> 06:09:50,121
who hold assets on both sidechains and they just do cross chain swaps.

4178
06:09:50,121 --> 06:09:53,121
So you're going to fragment the market, right?

4179
06:09:53,121 --> 06:09:55,121
Yeah, I think so.

4180
06:09:55,121 --> 06:09:58,121
I think you're going to have liquidity providers that say,

4181
06:09:58,121 --> 06:10:02,121
yeah, I'm going to hold some asset coins and I'm going to hold some big block coins,

4182
06:10:02,121 --> 06:10:07,121
and if you come to me, I charge 10 basis points to do a swap or something,

4183
06:10:07,121 --> 06:10:11,121
and it ends up looking a lot like cross chain swaps that we have today.

4184
06:10:11,121 --> 06:10:16,121
You can go right now and do a cross chain swap from Bitcoin to Ethereum.

4185
06:10:16,121 --> 06:10:20,121
It's a little bit more expressive on the Ethereum side,

4186
06:10:20,121 --> 06:10:25,121
but you can do it and there's a provider that will provide that liquidity

4187
06:10:25,121 --> 06:10:26,121
and they take a fee.

4188
06:10:26,121 --> 06:10:29,121
I think you'd have a similar thing if you don't want to do it yourself.

4189
06:10:29,121 --> 06:10:32,121
I mean, I think that that's how all peg outs are going to happen on drivechains

4190
06:10:32,121 --> 06:10:37,121
because trustlessly moving your hash rate escrow,

4191
06:10:37,121 --> 06:10:40,121
moving funds out of a drivechain takes three months.

4192
06:10:40,121 --> 06:10:42,121
So normal users aren't going to do that.

4193
06:10:42,121 --> 06:10:46,121
What's going to end up happening is you're going to go to,

4194
06:10:46,121 --> 06:10:50,121
I'm going to say exchange, but I mean like lower E exchange.

4195
06:10:50,121 --> 06:10:53,121
You're going to go to like, it could be a company, it could be a person,

4196
06:10:53,121 --> 06:10:58,121
it could be a decentralized program or some shit,

4197
06:10:58,121 --> 06:11:03,121
but you're going to go to some liquidity provider who has main chain Bitcoin

4198
06:11:03,121 --> 06:11:06,121
and is willing to buy your sidechain Bitcoin

4199
06:11:06,121 --> 06:11:09,121
and you're going to give them your sidechain Bitcoin

4200
06:11:09,121 --> 06:11:12,121
and then one block later you're going to have main chain Bitcoin.

4201
06:11:12,121 --> 06:11:18,121
And what's going to happen is they are going to provide liquidity exiting the sidechain

4202
06:11:18,121 --> 06:11:21,121
and then when they need to refill their bags

4203
06:11:21,121 --> 06:11:25,121
and they're going to go and do the actual three month long withdrawal.

4204
06:11:25,121 --> 06:11:29,121
So most people are never actually going to do hash rate escrow.

4205
06:11:29,121 --> 06:11:33,121
Some people might actually do the trustless peg into a sidechain

4206
06:11:33,121 --> 06:11:37,121
because you can do that in probably six blocks or something.

4207
06:11:37,121 --> 06:11:41,121
But the three month long peg out is probably mostly going to be done

4208
06:11:41,121 --> 06:11:45,121
by liquidity providers who aggregate demand

4209
06:11:45,121 --> 06:11:49,121
and then four times a year they do a big peg out.

4210
06:11:51,121 --> 06:11:53,121
Exactly right.

4211
06:11:53,121 --> 06:11:54,121
One thing, Hector, you...

4212
06:11:54,121 --> 06:11:55,121
Sorry, really quick.

4213
06:11:55,121 --> 06:11:58,121
By the way, I'm not trying to make a value judgment

4214
06:11:58,121 --> 06:12:01,121
about whether or not this situation is good or bad.

4215
06:12:01,121 --> 06:12:04,121
I'm just trying to describe the way that it's intended to work.

4216
06:12:05,121 --> 06:12:07,121
That is so helpful.

4217
06:12:07,121 --> 06:12:11,121
Obviously it's much more important to understand something

4218
06:12:11,121 --> 06:12:15,121
than to have an opinion either positive or negative about it.

4219
06:12:15,121 --> 06:12:18,121
So your comments and the nature of them is perfect.

4220
06:12:18,121 --> 06:12:23,121
Hector, you used the word fractured referring to the fact

4221
06:12:23,121 --> 06:12:28,121
that there would be in this drivechain ecosystem multiple blockchains.

4222
06:12:28,121 --> 06:12:31,121
The layer one and then a multitude of layer twos

4223
06:12:31,121 --> 06:12:33,121
and you said they'd be fractured.

4224
06:12:33,121 --> 06:12:35,121
But that's not quite true

4225
06:12:35,121 --> 06:12:40,121
because they're sharing some of the most important experiences.

4226
06:12:40,121 --> 06:12:44,121
All these blockchains in a drivechain system for Bitcoin

4227
06:12:44,121 --> 06:12:48,121
are sharing monetary policy and they're sharing miners.

4228
06:12:48,121 --> 06:12:52,121
Well, no, because if I have asset layer, asset blockchain

4229
06:12:52,121 --> 06:12:55,121
and then I have, you know, ZK Rollup blockchain,

4230
06:12:55,121 --> 06:12:59,121
like to move from asset to ZK Rollup, there might not be a direct bridge.

4231
06:13:00,121 --> 06:13:02,121
I understand what you're saying exactly.

4232
06:13:02,121 --> 06:13:05,121
But it's also worth mentioning

4233
06:13:05,121 --> 06:13:07,121
if you're going to think about them as fractured,

4234
06:13:07,121 --> 06:13:11,121
that they're not fractured in important ways.

4235
06:13:11,121 --> 06:13:15,121
They're sharing the monetary policy and the miners.

4236
06:13:15,121 --> 06:13:19,121
Every drivechain sidechain shares the monetary policy

4237
06:13:19,121 --> 06:13:21,121
and the miners of Bitcoin.

4238
06:13:21,121 --> 06:13:24,121
And that's why it's a powerful idea

4239
06:13:24,121 --> 06:13:28,121
because it enables people who have very different values and preferences

4240
06:13:28,121 --> 06:13:32,121
to use Bitcoin instead of using

4241
06:13:32,121 --> 06:13:36,121
a multitude of totally independent blockchains.

4242
06:13:36,121 --> 06:13:39,121
So it brings together people who have different values.

4243
06:13:39,121 --> 06:13:41,121
Some value privacy more than others.

4244
06:13:41,121 --> 06:13:44,121
Some value low fees more than others.

4245
06:13:44,121 --> 06:13:48,121
Some value playing poker on the blockchain more than others.

4246
06:13:48,121 --> 06:13:50,121
Some people have all different kinds of values.

4247
06:13:50,121 --> 06:13:55,121
Drivechain enables people to opt in to the software they prefer

4248
06:13:55,121 --> 06:13:59,121
while still using Bitcoin's monetary policy and miners.

4249
06:14:02,121 --> 06:14:04,121
I want to add to this.

4250
06:14:04,121 --> 06:14:07,121
Hector brought up that it would fragment the market.

4251
06:14:07,121 --> 06:14:10,121
But I want to compare it to like the current model that we have,

4252
06:14:10,121 --> 06:14:13,121
you know, with different protocols that have different assets.

4253
06:14:13,121 --> 06:14:16,121
And you can say it's currently fragmented, right?

4254
06:14:16,121 --> 06:14:18,121
If I wanted to do something,

4255
06:14:18,121 --> 06:14:21,121
like let's say if I wanted to do something on Bitcoin Cash

4256
06:14:21,121 --> 06:14:26,121
because of higher throughput, lower on-chain fees,

4257
06:14:26,121 --> 06:14:29,121
then I would have to switch to that asset.

4258
06:14:29,121 --> 06:14:32,121
And if I wanted to have some Bitcoin on a small block,

4259
06:14:32,121 --> 06:14:34,121
just because for one reason or another,

4260
06:14:34,121 --> 06:14:37,121
I might want to have a copy of that whole ledger.

4261
06:14:37,121 --> 06:14:39,121
And I might want to have some on a small block.

4262
06:14:39,121 --> 06:14:41,121
I would have to switch from there to there.

4263
06:14:41,121 --> 06:14:43,121
So it's currently fragmented.

4264
06:14:43,121 --> 06:14:46,121
But wouldn't it be beneficial if I can have both options,

4265
06:14:46,121 --> 06:14:48,121
but use the same asset?

4266
06:14:48,121 --> 06:14:50,121
And I think that that's where the benefit is,

4267
06:14:50,121 --> 06:14:53,121
where people can use, you know, for whatever use case that they have.

4268
06:14:53,121 --> 06:14:56,121
But using the same asset, it brings everybody together.

4269
06:14:56,121 --> 06:14:58,121
It brings everybody under the same umbrella.

4270
06:14:58,121 --> 06:15:00,121
Nobody really has to argue with each other.

4271
06:15:00,121 --> 06:15:03,121
We can all do whatever we want and share the same asset,

4272
06:15:03,121 --> 06:15:06,121
which is, you know, one asset that it's 21 million limit.

4273
06:15:06,121 --> 06:15:08,121
And that's it. No difference.

4274
06:15:08,121 --> 06:15:11,121
Yeah. He just means sharing monetary policy.

4275
06:15:11,121 --> 06:15:14,121
Right. So you don't share the same asset in a sense.

4276
06:15:14,121 --> 06:15:17,121
You can't use a ZK token for an asset blockchain, right?

4277
06:15:18,121 --> 06:15:19,121
Vice versa.

4278
06:15:19,121 --> 06:15:21,121
Right, right. I meant by the monetary policy.

4279
06:15:21,121 --> 06:15:25,121
But I also want to say that people would have like atomic swaps

4280
06:15:25,121 --> 06:15:27,121
where you can trade from one to another,

4281
06:15:27,121 --> 06:15:30,121
probably almost instantly in a trustless manner, you know, atomically,

4282
06:15:30,121 --> 06:15:32,121
because there will be a market for that.

4283
06:15:32,121 --> 06:15:34,121
So, yes, there will be some fragmentation,

4284
06:15:34,121 --> 06:15:36,121
but I think it will be better than the current model

4285
06:15:36,121 --> 06:15:37,121
because there's benefits.

4286
06:15:37,121 --> 06:15:43,121
Also, for anyone who likes the historically oriented idea of Satoshi's vision,

4287
06:15:43,121 --> 06:15:48,121
it's worth noting that Satoshi explicitly said once, at least in writing,

4288
06:15:48,121 --> 06:15:54,121
that every blockchain would pay fees to Bitcoin.

4289
06:15:54,121 --> 06:15:57,121
So if people are enthusiastic about Satoshi's ideas,

4290
06:15:57,121 --> 06:16:01,121
which is, of course, not necessarily correct.

4291
06:16:01,121 --> 06:16:03,121
He made mistakes. Everyone does.

4292
06:16:03,121 --> 06:16:05,121
But if you love Satoshi's ideas,

4293
06:16:05,121 --> 06:16:08,121
it's worth noting that he liked the idea of merge mining

4294
06:16:08,121 --> 06:16:11,121
and said that every blockchain would pay fees to Bitcoin miners.

4295
06:16:12,121 --> 06:16:15,121
The only thing he didn't also add is that, you know,

4296
06:16:15,121 --> 06:16:17,121
if there were two APEG sidechains,

4297
06:16:17,121 --> 06:16:20,121
then all the blockchains could share the same monetary policy,

4298
06:16:20,121 --> 06:16:25,121
which is, of course, a superior thing than simply having a multitude of merged-mined altcoins.

4299
06:16:25,121 --> 06:16:28,121
It's better to have a multitude of merged-mined sidechains.

4300
06:16:28,121 --> 06:16:32,121
That way, there's greater network effect by sharing more than just the miners,

4301
06:16:32,121 --> 06:16:35,121
sharing the monetary policy as well.

4302
06:16:35,121 --> 06:16:38,121
Well, if you love that about Satoshi, you should love everything about Satoshi,

4303
06:16:38,121 --> 06:16:40,121
which includes the 32-megabyte initial block size

4304
06:16:40,121 --> 06:16:44,121
and also the idea that running a Notion would end up on server farms

4305
06:16:44,121 --> 06:16:46,121
and not the idea of people running their own copy of a blockchain.

4306
06:16:46,121 --> 06:16:49,121
So if you want to take Satoshi, you've got to take the whole Satoshi, not the half Satoshi.

4307
06:16:52,121 --> 06:16:56,121
Well, as Paul explained earlier, Satoshi was a small blocker, arguably.

4308
06:16:56,121 --> 06:16:57,121
He placed the blocks.

4309
06:16:57,121 --> 06:17:01,121
No, he even created a function of how to increase block size over time when we reach limit.

4310
06:17:01,121 --> 06:17:03,121
Like, he wrote that in the forums.

4311
06:17:03,121 --> 06:17:05,121
Anyway, I mentioned that only as an example.

4312
06:17:05,121 --> 06:17:08,121
No, it's a fascinating question, and it's very close.

4313
06:17:08,121 --> 06:17:15,121
But what he wrote into the forums is saying that we could phase in removing it later,

4314
06:17:15,121 --> 06:17:19,121
but he never did that, and he clearly knew how to do it

4315
06:17:19,121 --> 06:17:25,121
because both the halving and the difficulty adjustment are like a phased-in thing.

4316
06:17:25,121 --> 06:17:29,121
So he knew all about how to do that, but when he left the project, he didn't do that.

4317
06:17:29,121 --> 06:17:33,121
So you can either argue he left the project in a hurry

4318
06:17:33,121 --> 06:17:36,121
and he was unable to get to it, but he planned on doing it,

4319
06:17:36,121 --> 06:17:41,121
or you can argue he never planned on doing it,

4320
06:17:41,121 --> 06:17:43,121
but he just answered someone's question in a forum.

4321
06:17:43,121 --> 06:17:47,121
But the strongest evidence that Satoshi was a small blocker

4322
06:17:47,121 --> 06:17:52,121
is that he himself inserted the block size limit, and he did not phase it out.

4323
06:17:52,121 --> 06:17:54,121
He could have just put it in and said,

4324
06:17:54,121 --> 06:17:59,121
the limit doubles every year or something, but he didn't do that.

4325
06:17:59,121 --> 06:18:01,121
So then why did he put 32 at the beginning then?

4326
06:18:01,121 --> 06:18:03,121
Why do you think his intention was of doing 32 initially?

4327
06:18:03,121 --> 06:18:05,121
It doesn't actually matter, though, does it?

4328
06:18:05,121 --> 06:18:09,121
Because the later thing must take precedence, shouldn't it?

4329
06:18:09,121 --> 06:18:11,121
No, no, no.

4330
06:18:11,121 --> 06:18:15,121
One thing he said, oh, we put this because this is the original thought and reason.

4331
06:18:15,121 --> 06:18:18,121
If you believe that Bitcoin was the reason initially,

4332
06:18:18,121 --> 06:18:20,121
he initially said it with this parameter,

4333
06:18:20,121 --> 06:18:23,121
but then he said, oh, yeah, let's temporarily fix it to here,

4334
06:18:23,121 --> 06:18:25,121
and then we'll change it again when we see it.

4335
06:18:25,121 --> 06:18:29,121
The 32 megabyte limit is sort of an accident of the message.

4336
06:18:30,121 --> 06:18:33,121
I mean, are you in favor of a permanent 32 megabyte block size limit?

4337
06:18:33,121 --> 06:18:35,121
Probably not, right?

4338
06:18:35,121 --> 06:18:37,121
No, no, no.

4339
06:18:37,121 --> 06:18:40,121
There's even evidence of him suggesting increase over time.

4340
06:18:40,121 --> 06:18:46,121
There's never this belief that one was the ambiguous correct reason,

4341
06:18:46,121 --> 06:18:50,121
or one megabyte is a very ambiguous number that he chose,

4342
06:18:50,121 --> 06:18:53,121
and it means more so to reason that it's a temporary measure

4343
06:18:53,121 --> 06:18:56,121
for some sort of a nascent network that's coming up,

4344
06:18:56,121 --> 06:19:01,121
than this permanent fixture that we should adhere to 15 years, 20 years, 100 years later.

4345
06:19:01,121 --> 06:19:03,121
Like, it doesn't make sense.

4346
06:19:05,121 --> 06:19:08,121
I agree that it's ambiguous, but that doesn't mean that you're right, of course.

4347
06:19:08,121 --> 06:19:10,121
It means that both sides are sort of murky.

4348
06:19:10,121 --> 06:19:13,121
This is a simple question of what Satoshi believed was best.

4349
06:19:13,121 --> 06:19:15,121
But he did.

4350
06:19:15,121 --> 06:19:19,121
It's clear that the later thing, what if you write a last will and testament,

4351
06:19:19,121 --> 06:19:22,121
and then you go through three or four,

4352
06:19:22,121 --> 06:19:24,121
and then you do a fifth one?

4353
06:19:24,121 --> 06:19:28,121
Only the last one counts, right?

4354
06:19:28,121 --> 06:19:30,121
It's pretty straightforward.

4355
06:19:31,265 --> 06:19:45,265
And what if someone goes on, you know, they go up and they give a speech, and Richard Feynman gives a speech, and then at the end he says, oh, wait, wait, wait, before I said the coefficient of friction was 12, but it's actually 1.2.

4356
06:19:47,265 --> 06:19:50,265
And then he says, wait a minute, that was wrong, it actually was 12.

4357
06:19:52,265 --> 06:19:57,265
You guys are trying to bring in, like, what if Satoshi had, like, you guys are trying to take...

4358
06:19:57,265 --> 06:20:06,265
I'm taking it on principle. Do you buy my principle that the later thing takes precedence? In every other circumstance it basically does, unless someone is, like, you know, under duress or something.

4359
06:20:07,265 --> 06:20:16,265
So then why has everything changed away from Satoshi, then? If you guys agree that 1.2 is true, why are you guys adding these discounts to these temperate transactions and adding additional abilities that were not there?

4360
06:20:17,265 --> 06:20:24,265
Hector, that's a bit of a non sequitur because, as I clearly said, I mentioned the point about Satoshi only as a matter of historical interest.

4361
06:20:25,265 --> 06:20:31,265
And therefore it was directed towards someone who purports to be interested in Satoshi's vision.

4362
06:20:32,265 --> 06:20:37,265
And it is not the same thing as discussing what is best for Bitcoin.

4363
06:20:37,265 --> 06:20:40,265
What Satoshi thought is one thing, what's best for Bitcoin is another.

4364
06:20:41,265 --> 06:20:53,265
And the only reason why I mentioned the historical point about his explicit advocacy for merged mining was that it's notable in a conversation with anyone interested in his historical ideas.

4365
06:20:54,265 --> 06:20:58,265
I generally find appeals to Satoshi to be really unconvincing.

4366
06:20:59,265 --> 06:21:01,265
Satoshi left the project over a decade ago.

4367
06:21:02,265 --> 06:21:08,265
If he or she or they had an opinion about what the protocol could be doing, they could speak up.

4368
06:21:09,265 --> 06:21:13,265
Or they don't care or they're dead.

4369
06:21:14,265 --> 06:21:17,265
Any of those things, software projects evolve, software projects change.

4370
06:21:18,265 --> 06:21:20,265
They have to respond to the market and their users and all these things.

4371
06:21:21,265 --> 06:21:27,265
So I just generally don't find a 13 years ago Satoshi put this on the Bitcoin talk forum.

4372
06:21:28,265 --> 06:21:32,265
That doesn't really tell us anything about what the software should or should do.

4373
06:21:33,265 --> 06:21:36,265
I think most people agree with you, actually.

4374
06:21:37,265 --> 06:21:39,265
And it's a very reasonable position to take.

4375
06:21:40,265 --> 06:21:46,265
I don't completely, I have a kind of, first of all, I'm fascinated by Satoshi, of course, as many people are.

4376
06:21:47,265 --> 06:21:55,265
And second of all, there is an idea, like I was talking about before, splitting the vote or like what is the status quo or like who, like what is the deal?

4377
06:21:56,265 --> 06:21:58,265
What is the social contract of Bitcoin?

4378
06:21:59,265 --> 06:22:03,265
And yeah, I guess if you could say there was this guy, I think he was Edmund Burke or whatever.

4379
06:22:04,265 --> 06:22:06,265
And Burke had this interesting idea.

4380
06:22:07,265 --> 06:22:10,265
He wrote this famous essay about the French Revolution.

4381
06:22:11,265 --> 06:22:18,265
And he had this essay about how he rejected the social contract completely, which I don't suggest.

4382
06:22:19,265 --> 06:22:23,265
I mean, he rejected like a Lysander Spooner anarchism, but I'm not suggesting.

4383
06:22:24,265 --> 06:22:30,265
I'm just bringing this up in case someone finds it interesting, which is he has this line about society is a contract.

4384
06:22:31,265 --> 06:22:42,265
And we, it binds people who are ancestors, the people who came before us and people who are already dead, the people now living and those yet to be born.

4385
06:22:43,265 --> 06:22:51,265
And he said, no man can kind of violate this because it's only because we've all agreed to live in peace, not killing each other, that we're alive.

4386
06:22:52,265 --> 06:22:55,265
And so I have a kind of a similar take on the Bitcoin situation.

4387
06:22:55,265 --> 06:22:58,265
And so in that sense, it does matter which what was sort of first.

4388
06:22:59,265 --> 06:23:01,265
What was the thing that was kind of first?

4389
06:23:02,265 --> 06:23:03,265
And I just think that's a neat idea.

4390
06:23:04,265 --> 06:23:10,265
And I think it does kind of matter to me, although in practice, it also doesn't matter because in order to beat the limit, you would need a hard fork.

4391
06:23:11,265 --> 06:23:14,265
And I also believe in game theory and like coordination and stuff like that.

4392
06:23:15,265 --> 06:23:17,265
So I think it's quite an interesting idea.

4393
06:23:18,265 --> 06:23:23,265
But ultimately, I think the problems of the hard fork are so vast that raising the limit.

4394
06:23:23,265 --> 06:23:25,265
I mean, I'd love to hear from David Bailey.

4395
06:23:26,265 --> 06:23:33,265
I'm going to continue to ramble, though, just a tiny amount, because it's like what I was saying before, but you can't beat something with nothing.

4396
06:23:34,265 --> 06:23:43,265
What the large blocker said, it was something like, we will hard fork now to eight megabytes, and then we'll hard fork more later.

4397
06:23:44,265 --> 06:23:45,265
And I was just kind of very weak.

4398
06:23:46,265 --> 06:23:51,265
But at least some people in Bitcoin SV at least bite the bullet and say, we tear out the block size limit completely.

4399
06:23:51,265 --> 06:23:55,265
But I clearly remember the spirit of the times in 2015.

4400
06:23:56,265 --> 06:24:01,265
In particular, I remember Gavin Andresen saying many times, no one is crazy.

4401
06:24:02,265 --> 06:24:04,265
And he said, no one is advocating an unlimited block size.

4402
06:24:05,265 --> 06:24:11,265
And he was implying that anyone who did think that was completely crazy and out of left field.

4403
06:24:12,265 --> 06:24:13,265
And Gavin Andresen was a large blocker.

4404
06:24:14,265 --> 06:24:18,265
So the spirit of the times was that no one would remove the block size limit.

4405
06:24:18,265 --> 06:24:24,265
And I just thought moving from one to eight or one to two, and then we reset this problem.

4406
06:24:25,265 --> 06:24:27,265
I thought that's not worth the drama of the hard fork.

4407
06:24:28,265 --> 06:24:30,265
I'm pretty sure I ended up being sort of vindicated by that.

4408
06:24:31,265 --> 06:24:32,265
But anyway, David, take it away.

4409
06:24:33,265 --> 06:24:51,265
So not to open up the can of worms of the conversation we're just having, but I thought Hector's question of why would someone be incentivized to run a full node if they can't afford to use the network was a good question.

4410
06:24:52,265 --> 06:24:54,265
I haven't heard it phrased exactly like that.

4411
06:24:55,265 --> 06:25:00,265
So I asked Twitter that question, and I got an answer that I think is a pretty solid answer.

4412
06:25:00,265 --> 06:25:08,265
Worth bringing up, which is it only costs money to send a transaction.

4413
06:25:09,265 --> 06:25:11,265
It does not cost money to receive a transaction.

4414
06:25:12,265 --> 06:25:21,265
And so a user may want to run a node so that they can validate an incoming payment to themselves where the fee was paid by the other user.

4415
06:25:22,265 --> 06:25:33,265
So you can still be a potential user of the network waiting for your on-chain sugar daddy to come and pay you.

4416
06:25:34,265 --> 06:25:51,265
And so having the cost of running that node below would be an important thing to someone who maybe doesn't have the money today to send a transaction, but is hoping to earn money or have money come to their company or startup or whatever their service is.

4417
06:25:52,265 --> 06:25:54,265
I think it's a valid answer to that question.

4418
06:25:55,265 --> 06:25:59,265
No, but then that means that that transaction must be substantially greater than that fee rate.

4419
06:26:00,265 --> 06:26:04,265
Because if it costs $1,000 and I'm sending $1,000, I'm not going to do that as a user even though I'm rich.

4420
06:26:05,265 --> 06:26:06,265
Because it's going to be 100%, 50%.

4421
06:26:07,265 --> 06:26:08,265
It has to be substantially higher.

4422
06:26:09,265 --> 06:26:14,265
And then me as the recipient that you're saying is willing to happily accept that now, I'm going to take a huge haircut whenever I use that.

4423
06:26:15,265 --> 06:26:16,265
So I think that whoever said that is wrong.

4424
06:26:16,265 --> 06:26:18,265
No, I think whoever said it did pretty well.

4425
06:26:19,265 --> 06:26:26,265
But I think that partly you're right that no one is going to want to send this stuff if it's $1,000.

4426
06:26:27,265 --> 06:26:30,265
But that's exactly why the fee rate won't be $1,000.

4427
06:26:31,265 --> 06:26:34,265
I mean that's a pretty hard assumption to believe that.

4428
06:26:35,265 --> 06:26:37,265
It's a simple demand curve sort of situation.

4429
06:26:38,265 --> 06:26:39,265
Who are these people out there?

4430
06:26:40,265 --> 06:26:47,265
What you're saying is that more than 2,500 people per 10 minutes are going to be willing to pay $10,000 per transaction or $1,000.

4431
06:26:48,265 --> 06:26:50,265
Well, in the US we have the wire system.

4432
06:26:51,265 --> 06:26:56,265
Wire system does about 850 to a million transactions per day that are averaging over $4.5 million each.

4433
06:26:57,265 --> 06:27:00,265
So yeah, you can just take the wire system and that's $1.5 million done.

4434
06:27:01,265 --> 06:27:03,265
And now you have no one else's ability to do anything else.

4435
06:27:04,265 --> 06:27:07,265
It doesn't cost $1,000. It only costs like $50.

4436
06:27:08,265 --> 06:27:10,265
No, I know. But you're saying no one is willing to do more than $10,000 of transactions.

4437
06:27:11,265 --> 06:27:14,265
No, no, no. I was saying that no one is willing to pay the fee.

4438
06:27:15,265 --> 06:27:19,265
If you did charge $1,000 per transaction fee then people would like that more.

4439
06:27:20,265 --> 06:27:22,265
Like your two week example would become six weeks.

4440
06:27:23,265 --> 06:27:24,265
People would just naturally become annoyed by that.

4441
06:27:25,265 --> 06:27:26,265
Exactly. But I'm saying that's the thing.

4442
06:27:27,265 --> 06:27:29,265
You guys are not willing to walk on your feet because for some weird reason.

4443
06:27:30,265 --> 06:27:34,265
You just told me, why would I use Bitcoin when I can use Fedwire to send lots of money?

4444
06:27:35,265 --> 06:27:36,265
Even though I just gave you an example.

4445
06:27:37,265 --> 06:27:38,265
No, that's not what I did. I was just telling you.

4446
06:27:39,265 --> 06:27:40,265
I'm just trying to give you an idea of the demand curve for payment.

4447
06:27:41,265 --> 06:27:42,265
Exactly.

4448
06:27:43,265 --> 06:27:44,265
That's the demand curve.

4449
06:27:45,265 --> 06:27:46,265
There is no value there.

4450
06:27:47,265 --> 06:27:48,265
That's the point at $75. But what's the point at $1,000?

4451
06:27:49,265 --> 06:27:50,265
Exactly. I just told you.

4452
06:27:51,265 --> 06:27:54,265
I gave you the example of a million people every single day using this thing called Fedwire,

4453
06:27:55,265 --> 06:27:57,265
which is in the United States, which is an average of $4.5 million per transaction.

4454
06:27:57,265 --> 06:28:01,265
You just told me there is no incentive for them to use Bitcoin because it's going to be too expensive.

4455
06:28:02,265 --> 06:28:04,265
Because they do it right now with Fedwire for only $45.

4456
06:28:05,265 --> 06:28:08,265
You're just assuming that some fee will happen.

4457
06:28:09,265 --> 06:28:10,265
No, it has to happen.

4458
06:28:11,265 --> 06:28:18,265
Otherwise your argument of we have the most secure network goes down because no one's willing to mine this transaction because it's way too cheap.

4459
06:28:19,265 --> 06:28:24,265
Because there's not enough money to go around because you're moving it off to L2s and L2s of L2s and everything else.

4460
06:28:24,265 --> 06:28:27,265
You're moving it to Lightning and all that fee is being sucked away.

4461
06:28:28,265 --> 06:28:31,265
Because Bitcoin, which is the reason why Bitcoin exists,

4462
06:28:32,265 --> 06:28:36,265
because there's economics in it for adversarial parties to agree on a source of truth because the economy is there.

4463
06:28:37,265 --> 06:28:39,265
The money is there for them to be trustful.

4464
06:28:40,265 --> 06:28:41,265
But you're trying to siphon that away.

4465
06:28:42,265 --> 06:28:44,265
Effectively, you're advocating to kill Bitcoin is what you're doing.

4466
06:28:45,265 --> 06:28:51,265
I'm going to just clarify my expectation that I would think in a future successful world of Bitcoin,

4467
06:28:51,265 --> 06:28:57,265
there will be lots of L2s, including some large block chains.

4468
06:28:58,265 --> 06:29:05,265
And those are going to be charging like $0.10 to $0.15 per transaction, but have an enormous number of transactions.

4469
06:29:06,265 --> 06:29:12,265
A very, very high number so that the revenue is enormous, 10,000 times higher than the current.

4470
06:29:13,265 --> 06:29:14,265
And it was something like that.

4471
06:29:15,265 --> 06:29:16,265
I think that's possible.

4472
06:29:16,265 --> 06:29:25,265
And I think on L1, there will still be some fee pressure and it will be like it might approach in the craziest scenario.

4473
06:29:26,265 --> 06:29:29,265
At certain times, it might approach $50, but very temporarily.

4474
06:29:30,265 --> 06:29:39,265
I think normally at like 2, 3 a.m. when the sun is over the Pacific or something or whatever, I think the fees will not actually.

4475
06:29:40,265 --> 06:29:54,265
I don't think, my guess is we will never see a time when a one input, a two input, two output Bitcoin transaction costs more than $100 for like more than one week straight.

4476
06:29:55,265 --> 06:29:56,265
I think that will literally never.

4477
06:29:57,265 --> 06:30:06,265
I think that would literally never happen, although it's difficult to figure out how to account for the inputs, the ratio of inputs to outputs and that changing over time.

4478
06:30:06,265 --> 06:30:08,265
But I think that people just don't like that.

4479
06:30:09,265 --> 06:30:13,265
When it happens, it will be because of some other nonsensical thing like a huge price bubble.

4480
06:30:14,265 --> 06:30:19,265
The price bubble, I got to tell you, you can't count that because what's happening there is people are buying Bitcoin.

4481
06:30:20,265 --> 06:30:22,265
The Bitcoin is going up 20, 30% in a week.

4482
06:30:23,265 --> 06:30:25,265
So they just made thousands and thousands of dollars on their Bitcoin investment.

4483
06:30:26,265 --> 06:30:28,265
The last thing on their mind is whether or not the transaction fee is $200.

4484
06:30:29,265 --> 06:30:30,265
They couldn't care one bit.

4485
06:30:30,265 --> 06:30:31,265
That's not a real fee.

4486
06:30:32,265 --> 06:30:37,265
And that bubble activity is not, that is not indicative of people's willingness to pay for L1 block space.

4487
06:30:38,265 --> 06:30:39,265
That is a complete illusion.

4488
06:30:40,265 --> 06:30:44,265
But we want to go, well, I mean, if someone wants to reply, just real quick.

4489
06:30:45,265 --> 06:30:51,265
So I agree with you that it's not a real number, but it's driven by the demand because more people wanted to settle transaction on that network.

4490
06:30:52,265 --> 06:30:53,265
You can give it for whatever reason, maybe be a bubble or whatever.

4491
06:30:54,265 --> 06:30:58,265
I agree with you that it might be a bubble, but they were racing to get settled and therefore fees went up.

4492
06:30:58,265 --> 06:31:02,265
If you have any sort of same type of behavior, fees will continue to go up.

4493
06:31:03,265 --> 06:31:15,265
You're telling me that you're kind of net short on the network as a ability to be a settlement layer for the world because you're not seeing a lot of volume or a lot of possibility because no one's going to drive to this network to do settlement.

4494
06:31:16,265 --> 06:31:22,265
You're telling me that people are going to offset instead of going, instead go to L2 networks instead of using the L1, which is you guys are advocating for.

4495
06:31:23,265 --> 06:31:29,265
And the reason you're protecting is because it's the self-sovereign, the settlement layer, the you can't mess around with layer.

4496
06:31:30,265 --> 06:31:32,265
You guys are giving me this reason as to why it exists.

4497
06:31:33,265 --> 06:31:35,265
You're telling me that no one in the future will really use it.

4498
06:31:36,265 --> 06:31:37,265
What's the point of that?

4499
06:31:38,265 --> 06:31:43,265
Could you give me again the number, what is the number for the total quantity of wires sent?

4500
06:31:44,265 --> 06:31:45,265
What was that number?

4501
06:31:46,265 --> 06:31:49,265
Roughly between the day, like 850 to 1 million, 1.1 million a day.

4502
06:31:49,265 --> 06:31:51,265
But this is the quantity of wires?

4503
06:31:52,265 --> 06:31:55,265
The number of wires, yes. And roughly each wire is about four and a half million dollars.

4504
06:31:56,265 --> 06:32:01,265
And so that's, what was it like you said, about 900,000 a day?

4505
06:32:02,265 --> 06:32:03,265
Sure, yeah.

4506
06:32:04,265 --> 06:32:07,265
So the current Bitcoin network is 2,500 per minute.

4507
06:32:08,265 --> 06:32:11,265
But how close is it? Because it's 144 blocks?

4508
06:32:12,265 --> 06:32:21,265
It can handle about one third of it because already one third of, so 350 transactions, 320 transactions a day are already occurring with ordinals and all that stuff, right?

4509
06:32:22,265 --> 06:32:23,265
So if that exists or that subset still exists.

4510
06:32:24,265 --> 06:32:29,265
3,400 or so, it's the same. And then can you send a wire on Sunday or something?

4511
06:32:30,265 --> 06:32:37,265
Your wire would just be, well, now there's the new fed wire is coming in, which is 365. So yeah, you can do that every single, at any point.

4512
06:32:37,265 --> 06:32:47,265
Yeah, they finally got around to that. But you see that, of course, if it's, if it's actually dividing it by, you have to divide Bitcoin by five sevens to multiply by seven over five.

4513
06:32:48,265 --> 06:32:50,265
If it's, if it works 24 seven, it's not quite the same.

4514
06:32:51,265 --> 06:32:55,265
Yeah, now it works 24 seven. Yeah. So yeah, you could, you can make that argument divide by five.

4515
06:32:56,265 --> 06:32:59,265
Maybe we should see the number. Maybe it will be a smaller number per day.

4516
06:33:00,265 --> 06:33:04,265
But my point is, it's actually, it's very close, actually, as it is to that without anyone doing anything.

4517
06:33:04,265 --> 06:33:12,265
Sure. So then now you've just taken up the fed wire system. Now, nobody else, no workforce, no hodl, swan Bitcoin is effectively dead because they can't use it.

4518
06:33:13,265 --> 06:33:19,265
I'm saying like everything else is dead, terminals are dead, every single possibility that you could have existed on L1 is gone now because fed wire system exists.

4519
06:33:20,265 --> 06:33:21,265
And Bitcoin has taken over that.

4520
06:33:21,265 --> 06:33:40,265
But you see that, like, don't you, let's go back. I think the important point that would really make you a very, very happy person, if you understood it, or maybe there's some more interesting thing happening here, is that this is exactly the point we've been trying to make, which is that most regular people.

4521
06:33:41,265 --> 06:33:43,265
Think of that regular person you mentioned.

4522
06:33:44,265 --> 06:33:48,265
Okay, how many wires is he sending in your thing, in your paradigm?

4523
06:33:49,265 --> 06:33:51,265
Yeah, not very often. Not very often. I agree with you.

4524
06:33:52,265 --> 06:33:56,265
Right. So maybe none, in fact, because I know a lot of people in my life, I bet they've never sent a wire.

4525
06:33:57,265 --> 06:34:02,265
And Paul, I know where you're going. You're going to go with the exact idea that this is great for, they're great for L2, they're great for people that do the casual stuff.

4526
06:34:03,265 --> 06:34:10,265
But then again, but yet you're telling me in the same breath again, that I should be, that that same person should have a copy of the Bitcoin blockchain. But yet you're not willing to.

4527
06:34:10,265 --> 06:34:35,265
No, no, no, no. No, I'm not saying that. No, I'm not saying that because I'm not saying that everyone should run a node, actually, either. I'm just saying, I'm just saying problem solution. And I'm wondering why it is that you don't, this question has been asked by a couple other people now, especially me, which is, why do you even draw a distinction between the L2 and L1 at all?

4528
06:34:35,265 --> 06:34:54,265
To you, they should be the same thing. I can't even think of a reason why, other than you, someone suggested that. I don't know, I think it was maybe Bitcode. He said, why don't you just ignore it? Or someone said, you don't need to actually, you don't need, if this is causing you mental distress and anguish.

4529
06:34:55,265 --> 06:35:10,265
What do you lose by just ignoring the fact that there is an L1 there? I mean, we could make, in Bitcoin Core BTC, we could make like an L0 or like an L-1. That's like the first 10% of the block or something. Like, what difference does it make?

4530
06:35:10,265 --> 06:35:14,265
I know, and I could throw that right back at you. What difference does it make if we just increased it?

4531
06:35:15,265 --> 06:35:17,265
No, but it does make a huge difference because…

4532
06:35:17,265 --> 06:35:23,265
No, but I just told you, the same people, the same people, you said, you agreed with me, the majority should not be running nodes. So it doesn't make a difference.

4533
06:35:23,265 --> 06:35:27,265
No, the cost of running the L1…

4534
06:35:27,265 --> 06:35:31,265
You just told me the majority should not be ever doing that. So what's the cost?

4535
06:35:31,265 --> 06:35:34,265
No, no, no, I didn't say, I didn't, no, no, no, I said I'm not advocating that.

4536
06:35:34,265 --> 06:35:37,265
Hector, can you answer his question? Hector, can he ask you a question?

4537
06:35:37,265 --> 06:35:45,265
No, I'm saying, the way, the same way that BIP300 is able to make a distinction that there's a secondary network is the same reason I'm able to make the distinction that it's a secondary network.

4538
06:35:45,265 --> 06:35:52,265
If you guys are saying that this is not a secondary network change or a secondary network proposal, then therefore we're both saying that we're talking about L1.

4539
06:35:52,265 --> 06:36:00,265
But since we're both able to make that distinction, you and your proposal, and me advocating against your idea of this proposal, therefore we both agree that it's not Bitcoin, it's not the same layer.

4540
06:36:01,265 --> 06:36:13,265
Hector, if everyone who likes large blocks were to use a large block sidechain, in what way would that be inferior than using a large block layer 1?

4541
06:36:13,265 --> 06:36:17,265
Because we're using a secondary network.

4542
06:36:17,265 --> 06:36:21,265
Other than that. Other than that.

4543
06:36:21,265 --> 06:36:24,265
But I'm saying, my point is exactly your point.

4544
06:36:24,265 --> 06:36:27,265
No, it's not that at all. It's not at all the same.

4545
06:36:28,265 --> 06:36:30,265
In what way is it inferior?

4546
06:36:30,265 --> 06:36:35,265
Other than the label. Other than the label on the network that says layer 2. Other than that.

4547
06:36:35,265 --> 06:36:51,265
The same, oh my gosh, I just lost the word. The same limitations, the same concessions that you're making for willing to have a secondary network to do these types of transactions.

4548
06:36:51,265 --> 06:36:53,265
There's a difference.

4549
06:36:53,265 --> 06:36:55,265
One second. One moment.

4550
06:36:55,265 --> 06:36:59,265
You don't want the ultimate settlement. You want the idea that I…

4551
06:36:59,265 --> 06:37:03,265
I just want to make sure we have a clear exchange of ideas.

4552
06:37:03,265 --> 06:37:16,265
What is your answer to the question of how it would be inferior for every large blocker to use a large block sidechain on Bitcoin?

4553
06:37:16,265 --> 06:37:22,265
How would they have in any way an inferior experience from a technical perspective?

4554
06:37:23,265 --> 06:37:26,265
Because I cannot come back to the L1 as easy.

4555
06:37:26,265 --> 06:37:39,265
Because I have this fragmentation of blockchains that my coin, even though, yes, it's backed one to one, whatever, on asset blockchain, L2 of my drivechain, to then move it to go pay someone because they're not willing to accept asset layer token.

4556
06:37:39,265 --> 06:37:43,265
And they want to accept Bitcoin. They want to accept ZK's token.

4557
06:37:43,265 --> 06:37:46,265
That fragmentation is what kills me to move around this network.

4558
06:37:46,265 --> 06:37:49,265
Okay, the merchant may demand payment on L1.

4559
06:37:49,265 --> 06:37:51,265
Now, what if I only demand Monero?

4560
06:37:51,265 --> 06:37:52,265
That's exactly the problem.

4561
06:37:52,265 --> 06:37:56,265
What if I only demand Monero and Bitcoin Cash is not going to help though?

4562
06:37:56,265 --> 06:37:57,265
There's no difference.

4563
06:37:57,265 --> 06:37:58,265
Absolutely right.

4564
06:37:58,265 --> 06:37:59,265
It is going to help.

4565
06:37:59,265 --> 06:38:04,265
They could just say, I only accept Visa or I only accept ZCash or I only accept whatever.

4566
06:38:04,265 --> 06:38:08,265
It's better because it's all one to one.

4567
06:38:08,265 --> 06:38:11,265
You're almost certainly going to be able to find someone who will swap the coins or whatever.

4568
06:38:11,265 --> 06:38:18,265
No, there's always going to be a premium delta on the person who's willing to exchange you and the other person willing to wait those three months to then get those actual Bitcoins back.

4569
06:38:18,265 --> 06:38:21,265
Because otherwise they're not going to put their money up to not provide a premium service.

4570
06:38:21,265 --> 06:38:23,265
That's the premium they're willing to pay you.

4571
06:38:23,265 --> 06:38:25,265
But it doesn't matter though.

4572
06:38:25,265 --> 06:38:31,265
As you say, like if the L1 chain is a thousand dollar transactions and the merchant is not even going to want to accept on L1.

4573
06:38:31,265 --> 06:38:32,265
Exactly.

4574
06:38:32,265 --> 06:38:33,265
You just killed your point.

4575
06:38:33,265 --> 06:38:35,265
You said Bitcoin is not good for transactions.

4576
06:38:35,265 --> 06:38:36,265
Certainly did not kill my own point.

4577
06:38:36,265 --> 06:38:38,265
I'm making my own point very well.

4578
06:38:38,265 --> 06:38:39,265
So what's the point of Bitcoin then?

4579
06:38:39,265 --> 06:38:43,265
If there's not good for transaction, you just said it's not good enough to use this transaction from everyone.

4580
06:38:43,265 --> 06:38:44,265
So what's the point of it then?

4581
06:38:44,265 --> 06:38:46,265
What are we doing with it then?

4582
06:38:46,265 --> 06:38:51,265
You think like it's not Bitcoin and you think like this is some kind of horrible injustice visited on you.

4583
06:38:51,265 --> 06:38:53,265
But I'm giving you everything you want.

4584
06:38:53,265 --> 06:39:04,265
The injustice is that smart, dedicated people who love Bitcoin are on Bitcoin SV, no offense, mostly wasting their time being counterproductive to the mission.

4585
06:39:04,265 --> 06:39:06,265
That is the sad thing.

4586
06:39:06,265 --> 06:39:08,265
This is all just a giant tragedy.

4587
06:39:09,265 --> 06:39:11,265
It is a tragedy.

4588
06:39:12,265 --> 06:39:14,265
I don't understand.

4589
06:39:15,609 --> 06:39:20,809
What it is about, so you're saying like a merchant is only going to accept the L1. That's what you're saying.

4590
06:39:21,169 --> 06:39:24,009
No, merchant might not accept my L2.

4591
06:39:24,689 --> 06:39:26,809
Yeah, they won't accept L2. Yes.

4592
06:39:26,849 --> 06:39:29,209
That was my L2, my whatever L2.

4593
06:39:29,489 --> 06:39:31,729
Yes, that's the only thing I could glean out of what you said.

4594
06:39:32,609 --> 06:39:38,209
Or I might not be able to get L2 because L1 is not an ability for me to go from L1 to L2.

4595
06:39:38,209 --> 06:39:47,769
If I am primarily focused on the L1 aspect of this thing and then wanting to dabble or do a subset of money into the L2s, which require me to do the conversion.

4596
06:39:49,048 --> 06:39:58,969
Well, let me tell you a little story here, though, because it goes back to my friend who's never sent a wire transfer because no offense, he's just a normal guy and he's lived in the same town his whole life.

4597
06:39:58,969 --> 06:40:02,449
And I bet he's never done any complex business operations or whatever.

4598
06:40:03,329 --> 06:40:10,689
And most people, you know, again, let me paint my little picture of like Bank of International Settlements is on top.

4599
06:40:10,689 --> 06:40:12,169
Then you get like a bank in the next layer.

4600
06:40:12,169 --> 06:40:18,489
You've got Bank of Japan, the Fed, European Central Bank, you know, whatever.

4601
06:40:19,689 --> 06:40:26,289
And then from down from the Fed, you have Wells Fargo, Bank of America.

4602
06:40:26,848 --> 06:40:29,929
I wish I knew foreign banks, but I don't really.

4603
06:40:30,929 --> 06:40:34,488
So I only know American banks, so I can't sketch out the whole pyramid here.

4604
06:40:34,488 --> 06:40:39,248
But then beneath that, Visa and MasterCard certainly have an account at whatever Chase Manhattan.

4605
06:40:39,568 --> 06:40:41,168
So we keep going down.

4606
06:40:41,168 --> 06:40:42,448
We have this big triangle.

4607
06:40:43,929 --> 06:40:46,208
And I don't operate at all levels of the triangle.

4608
06:40:46,208 --> 06:40:48,208
I operate at just whatever level I prefer.

4609
06:40:48,689 --> 06:40:57,009
And in fact, the edges of the triangle, like the Visa and the cash and stuff, those are easier for me to transact with.

4610
06:40:57,369 --> 06:41:18,929
And it's not like my life is some horrible injustice, because the fact that I can't have an account at the Fed or at the Bank of International Settlements, that isn't the problem with the banking, you know, it's like, so I'm saying your person, everyone could just be staying on L2, that's what they already do today, that is, that's reality.

4611
06:41:18,929 --> 06:41:38,368
Paul, perhaps at the heart of the problem, I'm going to go into whatever, Harrison's Hardware, I'm going to go into Subway Sandwiches, and I'm going to say, we only take special drawing rights from the Bank of International Settlements, like that has never happened to anyone.

4612
06:41:39,368 --> 06:42:04,368
Paul, because he mentioned the at, when he said the word assets, like an hour ago, I think maybe what he has in mind is the apparent simplicity of an economy in which there is only one blockchain asset, and instead of one, as to use his words, again, like a fractured or fragmented array of different synthetic bitcoins on different sidechains.

4613
06:42:05,368 --> 06:42:30,368
So, as we discussed earlier, some people seem to want a so-called monolithic system in which there's only one blockchain, and maybe that is at the heart of the large blocker opposition to merged mining, because merged mining is multiple blockchains sharing monetary policy and miners, and that means giving up on the simplicity of a single blockchain, single asset system.

4614
06:42:30,368 --> 06:42:33,368
Do you think that might be at the heart of their perspective, Paul?

4615
06:42:35,368 --> 06:42:38,368
Well, it certainly might. I think that could be the case.

4616
06:42:38,368 --> 06:42:45,368
Although, of course, the whole point is the one-to-one peg that you have exchanging at par.

4617
06:42:46,368 --> 06:43:04,368
The idea that, like, when you send a wire transfer, again, like what I'm saying is cash is different from your visa balance, which is different from your checking account balance, which is different from your savings account balance, which is different from an account at the Fed, which is different from an account at the Bank of International Settlements, which is different from gold coin or whatever.

4618
06:43:04,368 --> 06:43:23,368
You can have $20 worth of those things. You have $20 worth of quarters. $20 worth of quarters to go to the laundromat or switch them out. Maybe you own the laundromat and you switch the $20 worth of quarters for one $20 bill, or you switch that for one hamburger and fries or something, if that's what it costs these days.

4619
06:43:24,368 --> 06:43:36,369
It's $20 worth of thing. So it shouldn't – the whole point of having the one-to-one peg is to enable all this complexity without having it negatively impact anyone.

4620
06:43:37,369 --> 06:43:55,369
The way to have it negatively impact everyone is to have it not positively impact anyone either since it's a zero-sum game in some sense. So that's why it's the one-to-one peg is the way to go, and that's why when you go to the ATM and you withdraw $20, it gives you one $20 bill and it moves your checking account balance down by $20.

4621
06:43:56,369 --> 06:44:12,369
The $20 unit is an abstraction that cuts across these different instantiations of it. It's instantiated physically in cash, and then is it instantiated in the checking account, and it could be instantiated in all these other ways.

4622
06:44:12,369 --> 06:44:32,369
So I think you're probably right that people say, well, this is starting to get complicated now. But again, the regular financial system is enormously complicated, and we are going to have to just have a tiny bit of approximating that if we are going to just replace it completely root and branch, which is exactly what we must do if we want to succeed.

4623
06:44:33,369 --> 06:44:49,369
We have to replace the whole thing top to bottom and present people, regular people, with an alternative that meets every need they currently have, which as Hector rightly points out includes whatever, hundreds of thousands of wire transfers per day.

4624
06:44:49,369 --> 06:45:04,369
Notice it's hundreds of thousands of wire transfers per day, but it's not that many cash payments per day, and it's not that many checking account, and it's not that many Zelle. These are all different things. They all have different numbers.

4625
06:45:04,369 --> 06:45:25,369
What are the numbers for the clearinghouses that the banks use to settle amongst themselves, and what are the numbers for the transactions at the Fed to settle among the different banks? And what is the number used when the Fed settles with the Bank of Japan? These are all different numbers. They all need their own block size or whatever you want to call it.

4626
06:45:26,369 --> 06:45:51,369
They're all different things, so they all need different numbers, and that's the complexity, and if you don't want that, then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe someday someone will come up with something that replaces all of that and is also simple enough to cater to someone's preference for simplicity, but it's already a big project.

4627
06:45:52,369 --> 06:46:14,369
Right, and that was the reason for Bitcoin, but then you're basically saying, I'd rather recreate the banking system and have this fragmentation all over again, rather than just succumb to this idea that the majority is not going to be able to use L1, therefore I should cater to the majority, not the vast minority who has this weird perception of reality of wanting a copy of the blockchain for whatever reason, and cater to that whole world and allow them to...

4628
06:46:15,369 --> 06:46:20,369
Can you really not think of a reason why someone would want a copy of the blockchain?

4629
06:46:21,369 --> 06:46:25,369
There is no reason. There is no ability they have. They have no ability anyway.

4630
06:46:26,369 --> 06:46:31,369
The one reason is to know whether or not you've been paid. Whether or not you've been paid in Bitcoin.

4631
06:46:32,369 --> 06:46:37,369
Well, that's what Satoshi said we should have an SPV for, right? You don't need to know if everyone got paid. You just need to know if you got paid.

4632
06:46:38,369 --> 06:46:47,369
You know, with SPV, you know if a message has been included in the blockchain, but you do not know that the blockchain is free of errors. You do not know if you are on the Bitcoin blockchain.

4633
06:46:48,369 --> 06:46:51,369
That is why you trust the miners to do that for you, right?

4634
06:46:52,369 --> 06:46:58,369
Yes, but then you think, well, I'm a miner for some reason, like if it was an unethical reason, but that is a reason.

4635
06:46:59,369 --> 06:47:06,369
The majority today and the majority of the people you're speaking to are willing to do that, are willing to make that trade-off like you've been speaking about.

4636
06:47:07,369 --> 06:47:11,369
Yet, for some reason, there's a small, small, small group of people who you think have some sort of power, yet they're powerless.

4637
06:47:12,369 --> 06:47:21,369
Like we saw with Ordinals, right? All they could possibly do is disrespect and not relay the transactions, but yet they would have to take the blocks that had those transactions in them, even though they disrespected them.

4638
06:47:21,369 --> 06:47:24,369
Why? Because the miners said so, and that was it.

4639
06:47:25,369 --> 06:47:31,369
All they do is come here to Twitter and complain because they can't actually do anything on the network. They can't signal anything on the network to stop what they're doing.

4640
06:47:32,369 --> 06:47:37,369
Well, I mean, if you think they're so powerless, then it doesn't really add up.

4641
06:47:37,369 --> 06:47:49,369
It doesn't add up like, why would you be here talking to me? Why is it that Bitcoin SV is beneath Bitcoin Core BTC?

4642
06:47:50,369 --> 06:48:00,369
It seems like they had enough power to drain billions of dollars from the large blockers and sort of cast them out.

4643
06:48:01,369 --> 06:48:02,369
That's how it's going to look to most people.

4644
06:48:03,369 --> 06:48:11,369
Still, I wish you would just understand that it's not actually catering to a minority over a majority. I'm saying I am catering to both.

4645
06:48:12,369 --> 06:48:17,369
If you have 600,000 possible people and you expect billions of people or millions of people, that's a minority.

4646
06:48:18,369 --> 06:48:26,369
No, but I'm saying, let's say a minority wants Chinese food and a majority wants to get Italian food takeout.

4647
06:48:27,369 --> 06:48:34,369
I'm saying everyone can just order whatever they want, and then they have that, and now everyone gets what they want.

4648
06:48:35,369 --> 06:48:38,369
And you're saying, why does everyone have to eat Chinese food? I'm saying they don't.

4649
06:48:39,369 --> 06:48:41,369
I'm saying you can get your Italian takeout.

4650
06:48:42,369 --> 06:48:46,369
And you're like, oh, but I don't want Italian takeout now.

4651
06:48:47,369 --> 06:48:49,369
And I said, you just said you wanted large blocks. I'm giving you large blocks.

4652
06:48:50,369 --> 06:48:52,369
You don't even notice the difference between it's the same food.

4653
06:48:53,369 --> 06:48:55,369
And you say, well, I want large blocks.

4654
06:48:56,369 --> 06:48:58,369
And then you get Italian takeout and it says Layer 2.

4655
06:48:59,369 --> 06:49:02,369
There's a little label on it, and you say, goddammit, why didn't I just tear that label off?

4656
06:49:03,369 --> 06:49:05,369
It's the exact same food you would have eaten before.

4657
06:49:06,369 --> 06:49:10,369
Layer 2, I don't like this. I don't like that other people are getting Chinese food.

4658
06:49:11,369 --> 06:49:14,369
Well, they don't like the fact that you're getting Italian takeout.

4659
06:49:15,369 --> 06:49:20,369
So you're kind of painting it into it. You're making it completely, no offense, immature, impossible.

4660
06:49:21,369 --> 06:49:25,369
So you're expecting less than 600,000 people to use sidechains, because otherwise it's a majority.

4661
06:49:26,369 --> 06:49:29,369
Some people want small blocks for real. They really do want that.

4662
06:49:30,369 --> 06:49:31,369
Right, and they're a vast minority of the world.

4663
06:49:31,369 --> 06:49:34,369
For real. So both people get what they want.

4664
06:49:36,369 --> 06:49:39,369
You're just saying, I'm not going to show it in the interface of what actually is occurring.

4665
06:49:40,369 --> 06:49:43,369
And even you, your own proposal says it's a different network.

4666
06:49:44,369 --> 06:49:45,369
So how can you tell me it's the same thing?

4667
06:49:46,369 --> 06:49:48,369
You're just willing to opt to separate that from the user.

4668
06:49:49,369 --> 06:49:51,369
Bitcoin SV is also a different network than Bitcoin Core Layer 1.

4669
06:49:52,369 --> 06:49:54,369
Yes, but Bitcoin SV, all these transactions on there are from the same network.

4670
06:49:55,369 --> 06:49:58,369
Yes, but so is all the ones on the large block Layer 2.

4671
06:49:59,369 --> 06:50:00,369
They are all on the same network also.

4672
06:50:01,369 --> 06:50:05,369
You just told me that drivechains are secondary networks.

4673
06:50:06,369 --> 06:50:12,369
I describe them as a Layer 2, because by that I mean, when coins are first deposited there,

4674
06:50:13,369 --> 06:50:17,369
the way the Layer 2 sidechain would start off is with zero coins.

4675
06:50:18,369 --> 06:50:21,369
And then someone like a Roger Ver or whatever, they would move like 50,000 coins over there.

4676
06:50:22,369 --> 06:50:23,369
And then they would start onboarding people over there.

4677
06:50:24,369 --> 06:50:25,369
They give people the coins over there.

4678
06:50:26,369 --> 06:50:30,369
And now you have coins over there, and the coins could be brought back to L1.

4679
06:50:31,369 --> 06:50:34,369
In Bitcoin SV, there's no L1 for them to be brought back to, because they're already on L1.

4680
06:50:35,369 --> 06:50:36,369
So that's the whole reason.

4681
06:50:37,369 --> 06:50:40,369
That doesn't mean anything like inferior or whatever about that.

4682
06:50:41,369 --> 06:50:44,369
It's not supposed to imply any kind of like...

4683
06:50:45,369 --> 06:50:48,369
Like, from your point of view, it really is the same.

4684
06:50:49,369 --> 06:50:50,369
I think so.

4685
06:50:51,369 --> 06:50:56,369
What you're saying is, I might meet someone who doesn't take the coins on my network.

4686
06:50:57,369 --> 06:50:58,369
But that could already happen.

4687
06:50:58,369 --> 06:51:02,369
You could already meet someone who says, I only take Monero, or I only take Bitcoin Core.

4688
06:51:03,369 --> 06:51:06,369
And at least in the sidechain case, you have the one-to-one peg.

4689
06:51:07,369 --> 06:51:11,369
Smoothing this whole difficulty over, you say, oh no, that's awkward.

4690
06:51:12,369 --> 06:51:14,369
If they only take Monero, now there's a floating exchange rate.

4691
06:51:15,369 --> 06:51:16,369
You've got to think, oh, can I even afford this?

4692
06:51:17,369 --> 06:51:18,369
Question mark, question mark, question mark.

4693
06:51:19,369 --> 06:51:20,369
You take out your calculator.

4694
06:51:21,369 --> 06:51:27,369
But with the one-to-one peg, it's just like, oh, okay, let me see if one of you swaps it or something.

4695
06:51:28,369 --> 06:51:30,369
You swap it one-to-one, and then you give them to him.

4696
06:51:33,369 --> 06:51:37,369
If you're willing to run Electrum SV and the large blockchain, then it shouldn't really matter.

4697
06:51:38,369 --> 06:51:42,369
Within that, you'll have Electrum BTC.

4698
06:51:43,369 --> 06:51:48,369
And within that, and so it will keep them separate for you, but you already have the software you need.

4699
06:51:49,369 --> 06:51:52,369
So there's really not a way that you're injured.

4700
06:51:53,369 --> 06:51:56,369
There's no injury that is done to the large blockers.

4701
06:51:58,369 --> 06:51:59,369
By just staying on the L2.

4702
06:52:00,369 --> 06:52:01,369
None whatsoever.

4703
06:52:02,369 --> 06:52:03,369
That's why it's irrational.

4704
06:52:04,369 --> 06:52:10,369
Because you're the one who wants to cater to a small minority of people who are on the number of 7,000 coin that no one is adopting.

4705
06:52:11,369 --> 06:52:16,369
And you want everyone else to, literally for no reason whatsoever, not get what they want.

4706
06:52:17,369 --> 06:52:18,369
Well, I say that's childish.

4707
06:52:19,369 --> 06:52:20,369
You have two groups of people.

4708
06:52:21,369 --> 06:52:22,369
They have a dispute.

4709
06:52:23,369 --> 06:52:24,369
I try to give each of them what they want.

4710
06:52:24,369 --> 06:52:26,369
You can't just say, I'm going to have my way.

4711
06:52:27,369 --> 06:52:28,369
Because you know what?

4712
06:52:29,369 --> 06:52:30,369
They say they're going to have it their way.

4713
06:52:31,369 --> 06:52:33,369
And then now you're the number 7,000th coin.

4714
06:52:34,369 --> 06:52:36,369
So that's just the way I see it.

4715
06:52:42,369 --> 06:52:44,369
That has been a really interesting exchange.

4716
06:52:45,369 --> 06:52:48,369
Maybe we should move on from the large block, small block debate.

4717
06:52:49,369 --> 06:52:51,369
Michael, Tidwell, welcome to the stage.

4718
06:52:52,369 --> 06:52:53,369
Hey.

4719
06:52:54,369 --> 06:53:01,369
First, I want to say anyone in Bitcoin with a real heart that's been in the space for a while.

4720
06:53:02,369 --> 06:53:03,369
Whatever.

4721
06:53:04,369 --> 06:53:05,369
I guess when BitPay was cool.

4722
06:53:09,369 --> 06:53:15,369
A lot of friends got split off into Bitcoin Cash and Roger Ver stuff.

4723
06:53:16,369 --> 06:53:22,369
I just want to say, it's still my belief that I want to bring everyone back into the fold.

4724
06:53:23,369 --> 06:53:26,369
That left for, in my opinion, not necessarily bad reasons.

4725
06:53:27,369 --> 06:53:34,369
I think Hector might be one of those people that maybe left for ideals that aren't necessarily incorrect, in my opinion.

4726
06:53:35,369 --> 06:53:39,369
But they're obviously, it's kind of like a lost war at this point.

4727
06:53:40,369 --> 06:53:51,369
And I want to say that what Paul is recommending is almost like the best compromise that you could possibly get for something that is similar to what you want and similar to ideals.

4728
06:53:52,369 --> 06:53:56,369
It's not going to be perfect, but at this point, it's the best you can get.

4729
06:53:57,369 --> 06:54:03,369
Because it's pretty much decided that Bitcoin Cash isn't really going to somehow just magically take over BTC.

4730
06:54:04,369 --> 06:54:05,369
I really don't believe that.

4731
06:54:05,369 --> 06:54:09,369
It was very much a toss-up when it first happened.

4732
06:54:10,369 --> 06:54:21,369
And I would say, arguably, most people that are probably self-claimed as Bitcoin maxis nowadays had no fucking clue whether or not Bitcoin Cash was the real Bitcoin and would overtake or if BTC was.

4733
06:54:22,369 --> 06:54:24,369
I would say everyone was just kind of like, wait and see.

4734
06:54:25,369 --> 06:54:31,369
And I would say at this point, there's no reason to really kind of fight this fight.

4735
06:54:32,369 --> 06:54:38,369
I think the real fight isn't really, no offense Hector, it's not really with people that think the way you're thinking.

4736
06:54:39,369 --> 06:54:47,369
It's with people that are on the small block side that want to push back because they actually feel like it is what you want.

4737
06:54:48,369 --> 06:54:56,369
So the people that Paul is really up against are people who completely disagree with you and they actually think that you're getting what you want, even though you're not.

4738
06:54:56,369 --> 06:55:01,369
Because you want, ideally, layer one to be the scaling layer, which I totally understand.

4739
06:55:02,369 --> 06:55:03,369
Unfortunately, it's just not going to happen.

4740
06:55:04,369 --> 06:55:05,369
I really don't believe it's going to happen.

4741
06:55:06,369 --> 06:55:10,369
So I really think that Paul is giving the best shot at the best of both worlds.

4742
06:55:11,369 --> 06:55:13,369
It's like the best compromise you could probably ask for.

4743
06:55:13,369 --> 06:55:21,369
And my question is, what is the current, like, it's hard for me to keep up, right?

4744
06:55:22,369 --> 06:55:24,369
I'm working my ass off in TabConf and blah, blah, blah, blah.

4745
06:55:25,369 --> 06:55:30,369
What is, Paul, from what you've seen, or whoever LayerTwo Labs, Henry, or whoever this is,

4746
06:55:31,369 --> 06:55:36,369
what's the latest argument from like a Bitcoin error log, John Kerbala kind of person?

4747
06:55:37,369 --> 06:55:43,369
Is there any novelty in the current conversation against Drivechain, or is it the same old, same old?

4748
06:55:44,369 --> 06:55:45,369
That's what I'm curious.

4749
06:55:46,369 --> 06:55:47,369
I kind of missed the beginning of this.

4750
06:55:48,369 --> 06:55:49,369
I just jumped in recently.

4751
06:55:50,369 --> 06:55:54,369
I personally do not feel that there's really anything new.

4752
06:55:55,369 --> 06:55:58,369
I think Alex B. tried to, like, confuse MEV.

4753
06:55:59,369 --> 06:56:02,369
He tried to basically kind of confuse everyone with MEV.

4754
06:56:03,369 --> 06:56:05,369
But that turned out to just be miners earning more money.

4755
06:56:06,369 --> 06:56:07,369
It's the same two things it's always been.

4756
06:56:08,369 --> 06:56:14,369
It's either miners can steal, so they say no one will ever want to use the L2 chain

4757
06:56:15,369 --> 06:56:17,369
because miners are just inherently evil and untrustworthy,

4758
06:56:18,369 --> 06:56:20,369
and they don't even care about their own transaction fee revenue or the value of Bitcoin,

4759
06:56:21,369 --> 06:56:22,369
which is, I find, very implausible.

4760
06:56:23,369 --> 06:56:27,369
Or they say, lately, the people, the small blockers on Bitcoin Core,

4761
06:56:28,369 --> 06:56:32,369
they know that the miners can steal is a fake argument because it only affects people who opt in.

4762
06:56:32,369 --> 06:56:38,369
So they have since retreated to the whole affects mining incentives argument,

4763
06:56:39,369 --> 06:56:43,369
which, if you drill down into it, is just an argument against all merge mining,

4764
06:56:44,369 --> 06:56:46,369
which we've been doing. Merge mining was invented by Satoshi in 2010,

4765
06:56:47,369 --> 06:56:51,369
and we've been doing it with altcoins, such as Namecoin, ever since.

4766
06:56:52,369 --> 06:56:54,369
So it's weird to make that work.

4767
06:56:55,369 --> 06:56:58,369
So then they say, well, okay, merge mining is bad, and we don't want it to get any bigger,

4768
06:56:59,369 --> 06:57:00,369
but there is no merge mining.

4769
06:57:00,369 --> 06:57:02,369
There's nothing bad about merge mining at all.

4770
06:57:03,369 --> 06:57:05,369
What it comes down to is miners are earning more money,

4771
06:57:06,369 --> 06:57:09,369
and that is exactly the same as if the 2,500 people

4772
06:57:10,369 --> 06:57:12,369
who had included a transaction in the most recent Bitcoin block,

4773
06:57:13,369 --> 06:57:18,369
if they had just paid a fee that was, whatever, 50 cents more or 10 cents more,

4774
06:57:19,369 --> 06:57:20,369
then miners would be earning more money.

4775
06:57:21,369 --> 06:57:25,369
So there's no basis for excluding merge mining revenues.

4776
06:57:25,369 --> 06:57:27,369
Miner revenue is a good thing.

4777
06:57:28,369 --> 06:57:30,369
And then from there, people say weird stuff like,

4778
06:57:31,369 --> 06:57:34,369
well, having miners be interested in sidechains,

4779
06:57:35,369 --> 06:57:41,369
or have miners be interested in running merge mining software is bad.

4780
06:57:42,369 --> 06:57:47,369
And then I point out that that already inevitably leads to a kind of merge mining

4781
06:57:48,369 --> 06:57:51,369
that happens naturally, kind of blind merge mining that happens naturally,

4782
06:57:51,369 --> 06:57:53,369
and my BIP just erases that completely.

4783
06:57:54,369 --> 06:57:56,369
But it wouldn't matter even if that were the case.

4784
06:57:57,369 --> 06:57:59,369
So even if that merge mining were very expensive,

4785
06:58:00,369 --> 06:58:03,369
it wouldn't matter because it's no different than any other thing that miners buy in principle.

4786
06:58:04,369 --> 06:58:06,369
And in fact, it must be very, very cheap,

4787
06:58:07,369 --> 06:58:12,369
and it must be something that is basically ignorable,

4788
06:58:13,369 --> 06:58:15,369
particularly because the pool may do it.

4789
06:58:16,369 --> 06:58:17,369
So I think there is nothing.

4790
06:58:18,369 --> 06:58:21,369
I think actually all that's happened is that more and more people are just realizing

4791
06:58:22,369 --> 06:58:25,369
that this is just like a lot of anxiety for no reason,

4792
06:58:26,369 --> 06:58:30,369
I think, over all the last few weeks.

4793
06:58:31,369 --> 06:58:33,369
If I could also add to that.

4794
06:58:34,369 --> 06:58:36,369
Yeah, that was perfectly said.

4795
06:58:37,369 --> 06:58:40,369
But to add to that in a simpler vocabulary,

4796
06:58:41,369 --> 06:58:43,369
Mike, this is Henry speaking.

4797
06:58:44,369 --> 06:58:46,369
The discourse on drivechain, in my personal view,

4798
06:58:47,369 --> 06:58:50,369
it stems from, as Paul says, an opposition to merge mining,

4799
06:58:51,369 --> 06:58:53,369
a belief that merge mining is bad.

4800
06:58:54,369 --> 06:58:59,369
For example, Peter Todd has tweeted that Rootstock is an attack on Bitcoin.

4801
06:59:00,369 --> 06:59:07,369
So I think it's a few OGs who think that merge mining is bad and harmful to Bitcoin.

4802
06:59:07,369 --> 06:59:09,369
I think it's a few OGs who think that merge mining is bad and harmful to Bitcoin.

4803
06:59:10,434 --> 06:59:14,834
And they would say it introduces different miner incentives and complexity.

4804
06:59:14,834 --> 06:59:20,834
Those are the two kind of things they talk about. Complexity, miner incentives, that's the concern.

4805
06:59:21,954 --> 06:59:29,234
And it's not surprising that Peter Todd is also an advocate for an inflation fork,

4806
06:59:29,234 --> 06:59:34,913
as he's tweeted many times. He advocates for that, for tail issuance, as he calls it.

4807
06:59:35,874 --> 06:59:41,554
Yeah, it is a weird thing that people take him so seriously. It's weird because he also agrees

4808
06:59:41,554 --> 06:59:44,913
that the security budget is real. And he says that we should violate the 21 million coin.

4809
06:59:47,154 --> 06:59:56,194
So LayerTwo Labs reached out to Peter. We somehow got to talking. He was very cordial and engaging.

4810
06:59:56,194 --> 07:00:02,913
And we communicated with him and we were paying him some money. He agreed to a modest payment

4811
07:00:03,393 --> 07:00:09,154
in exchange for having a debate with Paul. And first, he's also going to write an essay on his

4812
07:00:09,154 --> 07:00:14,594
blog. So any day now or any week now, he'll publish his blog post where he sets forth his

4813
07:00:14,594 --> 07:00:19,234
criticisms that we paid him to set forth on his blog. And then he'll do a two hour debate with

4814
07:00:19,234 --> 07:00:25,874
Stefan Levera. And then separately, Mike, I think he's agreed to do a debate with Paul at TabConf.

4815
07:00:25,874 --> 07:00:31,874
So we'll have two debates, it seems, between Peter Todd and Paul regarding merge mining and

4816
07:00:31,874 --> 07:00:38,993
drivechain. And maybe if Peter Todd were to ultimately decide that he has been wrong

4817
07:00:39,874 --> 07:00:45,073
in any way about this, I think there'd be a waterfall effect where the other people who

4818
07:00:45,073 --> 07:00:51,554
are vocal advocates would realize that the person... There's no way they could

4819
07:00:53,313 --> 07:00:59,234
disagree with Peter Todd after in that context, because most people are uncomfortable even.

4820
07:00:59,313 --> 07:01:05,794
And he's so critical of everything. So yeah, I agree that I think that if he were to change his

4821
07:01:05,794 --> 07:01:10,033
mind, I don't know. Who knows if he will? Because the thing about Peter Todd is his job is kind of

4822
07:01:10,033 --> 07:01:17,794
to find the critique of whatever idea, whatever idea, no matter how good Peter Todd will reign

4823
07:01:17,794 --> 07:01:24,994
on your parade, he is the devil's advocate. So he's a very good devil's advocate. I like Peter

4824
07:01:24,994 --> 07:01:32,194
Todd, of course, very much. I think he's great. I think he's wrong about this one thing. I think

4825
07:01:32,194 --> 07:01:40,114
that... I don't know why the audience always seems to always just take Peter's side, no matter...

4826
07:01:40,114 --> 07:01:43,634
Because the audience just loves it. It's like an S&M club or something. They just love

4827
07:01:44,194 --> 07:01:48,994
that Peter Todd discipline or something. I just think it's really funny sometimes.

4828
07:01:49,953 --> 07:01:56,513
So I don't know. But yeah, but he did do that thing and I haven't heard anything yet. I haven't

4829
07:01:56,513 --> 07:02:03,873
heard any questions, comments, whatever. So I don't know what he will write, but my guess is it will

4830
07:02:03,873 --> 07:02:10,593
end up being not substantial. Maybe it'll be a bunch of details like, we do not have a whatever

4831
07:02:11,313 --> 07:02:16,033
poll request, so this is not a serious thing, which is like because making the poll request is

4832
07:02:16,434 --> 07:02:23,393
annoying and it takes a while. It's the most labor-intensive part that you would only do

4833
07:02:23,393 --> 07:02:29,313
after everyone kind of agreed that they weren't going to immediately veto the idea. So yeah,

4834
07:02:29,313 --> 07:02:36,194
but we haven't heard anything. And I have actually been tweeting a lot, partly to

4835
07:02:37,474 --> 07:02:43,153
destroy his... I mean, I give him my entire playbook because I think I'm going to win. So

4836
07:02:44,114 --> 07:02:51,474
he has a thing from April 2014 and he makes a mistake. He divides the costs. He amortizes or

4837
07:02:51,474 --> 07:02:56,434
he divides the cost of the merge mining among all the members of a pool, but he doesn't divide

4838
07:02:56,434 --> 07:03:04,673
their revenues, which is his whole argument. But the whole argument is wrong and nor would it even

4839
07:03:04,673 --> 07:03:10,593
matter if that part of the argument was right because caring about miner costs is irrelevant

4840
07:03:10,593 --> 07:03:16,033
to layer one node. Your layer one node does not become more expensive when miner costs increase.

4841
07:03:16,033 --> 07:03:20,753
It doesn't become cheaper when miner costs decrease. So it's all just... So I think it's

4842
07:03:20,753 --> 07:03:27,473
just a big mistake and I think... But who knows? But that was a while ago. I think that was

4843
07:03:28,274 --> 07:03:36,513
four weeks, three, four, five weeks ago that we actually paid him even. So I don't know.

4844
07:03:37,473 --> 07:03:42,114
I haven't heard anything yet. But yeah, everyone should anxiously await such a...

4845
07:03:43,393 --> 07:03:43,953
Hey, Paul.

4846
07:03:43,953 --> 07:03:50,513
I think he was traveling. He had a conference or something like that. So we should continue to

4847
07:03:50,513 --> 07:03:56,434
be patient and I'm sure in the coming days or weeks, he'll publish his blog post as agreed.

4848
07:03:56,434 --> 07:03:59,233
Yeah, but TabCom is coming up though, right? Isn't it soon? Very soon.

4849
07:04:00,193 --> 07:04:08,754
Hey, TabCom. September 6th through 9th. Be there. TabCom.com. T-A-B-C-O-N-F.com.

4850
07:04:08,754 --> 07:04:14,754
Getting tickets now for the live action debate between Paul and Peter Todd.

4851
07:04:16,673 --> 07:04:20,193
It's in September, right? When is it? September 9th or something? When is it?

4852
07:04:20,193 --> 07:04:22,193
September 6th through 9th.

4853
07:04:22,193 --> 07:04:26,673
September 6th through 9th. So that one may be the first debate as far as anyone knows.

4854
07:04:27,233 --> 07:04:32,114
I thought that he would do the thing and then whatever.

4855
07:04:32,114 --> 07:04:32,434
Yeah, he...

4856
07:04:32,434 --> 07:04:36,834
You never get the second half until after the podcast with Stéphane Levera.

4857
07:04:36,834 --> 07:04:45,793
Yes. In our dialogue with Peter, offline, in our dialogue with him, with me, actually, he said,

4858
07:04:45,793 --> 07:04:50,834
I recall, it would be done in August. I forget if he said early August or late August,

4859
07:04:51,393 --> 07:04:59,714
but we didn't ever commit him to an exact timeline. So I think probably he'll do it this month or soon.

4860
07:05:00,994 --> 07:05:04,034
Yeah, of course. And he doesn't have to be committed to whatever. He can do it

4861
07:05:04,673 --> 07:05:08,594
whenever he likes. But of course, the suggestion is out there that

4862
07:05:09,154 --> 07:05:13,633
when you actually have to put pen to paper, now you have to get really serious.

4863
07:05:14,434 --> 07:05:20,034
And then he will realize that sometimes when people, when you don't have to write

4864
07:05:20,034 --> 07:05:23,633
your idea, a certain type of thinking is only possible when writing.

4865
07:05:24,353 --> 07:05:28,034
I believe that to be the case. And, you know, it's easy to just talk and say, blah, blah, blah.

4866
07:05:28,034 --> 07:05:31,953
But then you take out the pen and you write it down and you realize that it doesn't,

4867
07:05:31,953 --> 07:05:33,473
what you're saying doesn't make any sense.

4868
07:05:33,473 --> 07:05:41,393
Oh, Paul, wouldn't you say that to some degree, and correct me if I'm wrong, but to some degree,

4869
07:05:41,393 --> 07:05:46,434
like, let's say I'm making a video game, which I am making a video game called Satoshi Settlers.

4870
07:05:47,073 --> 07:05:53,633
And in part of the game is using the block hash and making that potentially valuable in my game.

4871
07:05:54,193 --> 07:05:59,793
And it's almost like some sort of miner extracted value or some sort of like way that

4872
07:05:59,793 --> 07:06:04,274
potentially like not saying this would ever get popular enough, but like miners could potentially

4873
07:06:04,834 --> 07:06:09,633
have a hash that they would manipulate based on what they could get in the game and the value

4874
07:06:09,633 --> 07:06:15,473
of the game that is taking it to an extreme, right, that probably people would be okay with.

4875
07:06:15,473 --> 07:06:19,233
Like, that's something where it's like drivechain is going too far. But what I'm saying is,

4876
07:06:19,793 --> 07:06:23,154
like, they would probably, those same people would probably be like, yeah, it's not a big deal.

4877
07:06:23,714 --> 07:06:28,673
Or would they also say that's an attack on Bitcoin? Does that make sense?

4878
07:06:29,314 --> 07:06:34,673
Yeah, I think, you know, I think they probably might because, but also it's within the context,

4879
07:06:34,673 --> 07:06:41,473
what part of what it is, is that the BIP300 is a soft fork. So everyone has become a corrupt

4880
07:06:41,473 --> 07:06:47,154
politician overnight because they say, oh, they think they need consensus. So everyone says,

4881
07:06:47,154 --> 07:06:51,154
oh, what's Paul going to do for me? I need to get bribed, or I need to get sucked up to,

4882
07:06:51,154 --> 07:06:56,434
or whatever. But with ordinals, there is no one to suck up to. So they just do it.

4883
07:06:57,154 --> 07:07:02,834
And similarly, BIP300 may go that way as well. It may just, the miners may just do it. And people,

4884
07:07:02,834 --> 07:07:11,874
people think that they can't, but, you know, like, they draw incredibly erroneous parallels to

4885
07:07:12,673 --> 07:07:18,834
SegWit2x, which was a hard fork, which is night and day opposite. But the point is,

4886
07:07:18,834 --> 07:07:21,793
probably no, even though it would be the same thing, people wouldn't complain, because you

4887
07:07:21,793 --> 07:07:26,353
could just do it. No one stops you from using the block hash as a source of randomness in your game.

4888
07:07:26,353 --> 07:07:31,554
Although it does give miners an incentive, any miner who's playing your game, they would maybe

4889
07:07:31,554 --> 07:07:36,513
want to, if they find a certain block hash, they'd have to compare how much money am I getting

4890
07:07:36,513 --> 07:07:43,074
from the whole Bitcoin transaction ecosystem? What am I getting in the game? And if I need,

4891
07:07:43,074 --> 07:07:49,074
if I need this block hash for the game, then maybe they'll just let that block, they won't,

4892
07:07:49,074 --> 07:07:52,033
they won't tell anyone about that block. And that block never happens.

4893
07:07:53,233 --> 07:07:57,554
Especially if it's something where they have like 100 Bitcoin on the line, and the next block has

4894
07:07:57,634 --> 07:08:01,713
to end in a certain hash, and they decide not to mine that block, you know, blah, blah, blah,

4895
07:08:01,713 --> 07:08:08,673
blah, you know, whatever. Yeah, a better way to do that would be to have the randomness depend

4896
07:08:08,673 --> 07:08:15,233
on a way that is like, there's some other, I mean, you talked to like a real cryptographer,

4897
07:08:15,233 --> 07:08:20,434
but there's something where like two or several different parties can each contribute to the

4898
07:08:20,434 --> 07:08:25,554
randomness. And maybe if the block hash is only one part of like three or something,

4899
07:08:25,554 --> 07:08:29,314
then it would be so much that it would not possibly be worth it to like, you need like

4900
07:08:29,314 --> 07:08:34,833
some kind of two out of three or something. All right, we'll optimize later. But you're

4901
07:08:34,833 --> 07:08:42,913
mentioning just now that, you know, drivetrain is a software, right? And that it might happen

4902
07:08:42,913 --> 07:08:50,434
anyways. But I tweeted out recently, sort of like a joke, but sort of serious, half and half,

4903
07:08:50,434 --> 07:08:55,074
where I'm like, hey, you know, is this going to happen with dev buy in? Because that's what I

4904
07:08:55,074 --> 07:08:59,713
think I'm most interested in, as I'm trying to at least attempt to be more on the technical side

4905
07:08:59,713 --> 07:09:06,273
of Bitcoin, right, for my life. And what I what I kind of the people I look up to in the space,

4906
07:09:06,273 --> 07:09:11,314
right, not only are the people building, you know, businesses and stuff, but some of the core devs,

4907
07:09:11,314 --> 07:09:18,994
right. And, and I know Jeremy Rubin spent a lot of effort and time trying to get that list of

4908
07:09:19,954 --> 07:09:26,913
a somewhat various technical people. I know his list was open to a lot of people, but he he really

4909
07:09:26,913 --> 07:09:34,514
focused on trying to at least say, like, are you neutral against or for, you know, CTV and, you

4910
07:09:34,514 --> 07:09:39,954
know, covenants that I'm working on. And he had like an entire, you know, almost like an entire

4911
07:09:39,954 --> 07:09:46,833
list of devs, you know, you know, I'm talking about right has a, have you attempted? Is that

4912
07:09:46,833 --> 07:09:51,874
even worth your time? Have you attempted to at least try to see who is like for and against,

4913
07:09:51,874 --> 07:09:58,434
like, in terms of like, like, really trying to nail that down? And because those are the people

4914
07:09:58,434 --> 07:10:02,434
I'm kind of interested in their opinions on it. And I've missed, you know, Peter Todd isn't

4915
07:10:02,434 --> 07:10:07,473
necessarily a Bitcoin Core contributor. Like, he's not necessarily an active Bitcoin Core

4916
07:10:07,473 --> 07:10:12,353
contributor anymore. I'm really interested in the people that are currently active,

4917
07:10:13,314 --> 07:10:18,673
not just thought leaders in the space, like you're, you know, Peter Todd's or whatever,

4918
07:10:18,673 --> 07:10:25,074
but people who are actually reviewing and committing code, what, what are their opinions,

4919
07:10:25,074 --> 07:10:29,793
right? And who are who, you know, we obviously know their usernames and some of their identities,

4920
07:10:29,793 --> 07:10:35,954
right on GitHub and stuff, but I'm really interested in that. I'm wondering what's

4921
07:10:35,954 --> 07:10:41,394
been done there. Yes, well, you know, we have this, this layer two labs.com slash friends

4922
07:10:41,394 --> 07:10:46,114
list, which is kind of like that, but it's not, it's just that I'm like, anyone we think is a good

4923
07:10:46,114 --> 07:10:52,673
Bitcoiner. It's not necessarily someone who has contributed to Bitcoin Core. I think that,

4924
07:10:53,473 --> 07:10:57,874
you know, it's a good idea. Well, I mean, how much did it really help Jeremy? Like,

4925
07:10:58,434 --> 07:11:04,673
well, that's my math game. But it didn't help. And I feel like it was a lot of effort.

4926
07:11:04,673 --> 07:11:12,194
And I'm wondering, do you, do you even consider that worthwhile? Like, is it even working?

4927
07:11:12,194 --> 07:11:16,194
Because we're already, you're already kind of talking to the point where it's like, you know,

4928
07:11:16,194 --> 07:11:20,514
we technically don't need devs. Right. And I've even, I've even talked to Bitcoin Core devs.

4929
07:11:20,514 --> 07:11:25,074
And, and, and one very prominent one, I don't want to dox this person, but one very prominent

4930
07:11:25,074 --> 07:11:32,273
one said he was not for drivechains to be clear. He was not necessarily super against it,

4931
07:11:32,273 --> 07:11:36,994
but he was against it. But he said, the worst part about drivechain is there's nothing we can

4932
07:11:36,994 --> 07:11:42,273
do to stop it because it's a soft fork. That's what he told me. And, and I'm just wondering if

4933
07:11:42,273 --> 07:11:47,394
it's something where it's like, well, it doesn't matter if the devs want it or not. But I would

4934
07:11:47,394 --> 07:11:53,473
say if the, if, if you, if, if drivechain is brought in like it or not, you know what I mean?

4935
07:11:54,913 --> 07:11:59,554
It's, it's, I wonder if it's only, only going to be something like a flash and pan where it's like,

4936
07:11:59,554 --> 07:12:02,994
well, we can't really stop ordinals from being written to the blockchain. It is what it is. We,

4937
07:12:02,994 --> 07:12:07,314
we don't like it, but we're going to deal with it. And maybe it was this big kerfuffle, but

4938
07:12:08,194 --> 07:12:12,353
now it's just kind of part of Bitcoin. And we don't like, it's not like something we complain

4939
07:12:12,353 --> 07:12:18,673
about too much, but, or if it's going to create this like gigantic war where now they're somehow

4940
07:12:18,673 --> 07:12:25,153
trying to actively somehow sensor drivechain kind of transaction by doing some really obscure,

4941
07:12:25,954 --> 07:12:29,314
crazy shit, you know, right. Chain disrespect to her.

4942
07:12:31,713 --> 07:12:38,033
Well, you know, making Bitcoin Core software actively tried to sensor any kind of activity

4943
07:12:38,033 --> 07:12:42,033
with drivechain potentially. I'm just saying like extreme situations, you know what I mean?

4944
07:12:42,833 --> 07:12:45,954
Yeah. But you see, if they're going to be against the idea, they should have some kind of reason

4945
07:12:46,514 --> 07:12:49,554
and they should just give, come into this space and explain the reason.

4946
07:12:50,273 --> 07:12:55,153
Well, I can speak on the, from what I've heard is the main reason I'm hearing is

4947
07:12:57,394 --> 07:13:02,913
similar to probably what John Kravala honestly says. I don't know what he's actually saying,

4948
07:13:02,913 --> 07:13:07,314
but something along the lines of it's a block size increase and that's bad for Bitcoin's

4949
07:13:07,314 --> 07:13:13,713
decentralization. Something along the lines of that is the argument, right? So

4950
07:13:14,273 --> 07:13:16,114
it just means they haven't looked into it though.

4951
07:13:16,353 --> 07:13:22,673
Right. But I, I mean, it's hard for me to believe that they're all like, it's hard for me. I'm not

4952
07:13:22,673 --> 07:13:26,514
saying they're right or wrong. I'm just, it's hard for me to believe that there isn't at least

4953
07:13:26,514 --> 07:13:31,954
some nuance there with their argument. And maybe it's true that they just don't understand that.

4954
07:13:31,954 --> 07:13:36,913
It's like, Hey, it's like, these are completely optional, you know, stuff like this. I don't know.

4955
07:13:36,913 --> 07:13:42,194
It kind of goes back to what was that guy's name that had that big thread with you recently?

4956
07:13:42,434 --> 07:13:46,593
Had that big thread with you recently? No. Oh, Alex B.

4957
07:13:47,314 --> 07:13:52,593
Yeah. It's kind of, it kind of goes to like a more understandable version of what Alex B. I

4958
07:13:52,593 --> 07:13:56,353
think was trying to say. I don't actually fully understand what Alex B. was trying to say,

4959
07:13:56,353 --> 07:14:02,353
but I think some, it's almost like there's, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's there, I think,

4960
07:14:02,353 --> 07:14:07,394
but it's not very, it's, it's hard to make concise, you know, bear though.

4961
07:14:08,114 --> 07:14:14,194
It's what's there. I'm not saying it's valid. I'm just saying that the argument block size war,

4962
07:14:14,194 --> 07:14:22,033
and it is just, uh, it's people thinking that because it is a block size increase for the

4963
07:14:22,033 --> 07:14:27,634
people who want it, but that's the whole point, but it's not a block size increase. It doesn't

4964
07:14:27,634 --> 07:14:37,074
affect something is only the layer one block size node does certain things. And that's what

4965
07:14:37,074 --> 07:14:42,114
it does. And if you run a full node, then you, you have validated all the networks transactions

4966
07:14:43,394 --> 07:14:46,273
and you know, you can measure confirmations accurately.

4967
07:14:47,394 --> 07:14:51,153
So you, you know, what it seems like you're probably going to do is you're going to reach

4968
07:14:51,153 --> 07:14:54,994
out to all the miners secretly. And then at TabConf, you're just going to announce, Hey,

4969
07:14:54,994 --> 07:14:59,074
by the way, we've already been running drivechain for two weeks. And, uh, no one even knew.

4970
07:14:59,074 --> 07:15:03,713
At scaling three, I asked Matt Corallo that exact, well, it's Chatham house rules, but,

4971
07:15:03,793 --> 07:15:08,593
but it was a long time ago. So, but I said, as far as you know, there's already a, there's,

4972
07:15:08,593 --> 07:15:11,713
as far as you know, there's already like an eight gigabyte mandatory extension block.

4973
07:15:11,713 --> 07:15:15,233
There's all these things that you don't know about. And you'd also don't know the content

4974
07:15:15,233 --> 07:15:20,434
of someone's lightning channel. That's only between the two of them. So I said that exact

4975
07:15:20,434 --> 07:15:26,114
same thing back then. And yeah, I think what it is is I don't think that it is actually about the

4976
07:15:26,114 --> 07:15:32,833
block size debate, uh, actually at all. There is an important, very sinister incentive, but I may

4977
07:15:32,833 --> 07:15:38,434
be wrong. If I'm wrong, these people should present their reason. I mean, it's, it is flatly

4978
07:15:38,434 --> 07:15:45,074
wrong to say that it is a block size increase. It's just flatly wrong. Like you understand why,

4979
07:15:45,074 --> 07:15:51,954
right? Like it's just not a block size increase. The L1 node will only download the L1 part

4980
07:15:52,673 --> 07:15:59,394
and it is not affected by the deposits and withdrawals. It validates, but the withdrawal

4981
07:15:59,394 --> 07:16:06,194
is this thing that is sanitized to just one hatch that's in a layer one coin base. So there's

4982
07:16:06,194 --> 07:16:12,833
zeros. That doesn't even bother me. The fact that layer one, I mean, is, is untouched most,

4983
07:16:12,833 --> 07:16:20,593
I mean, particularly here. And even, even if you abstractly and, you know, want to take that,

4984
07:16:20,593 --> 07:16:24,914
take that leap and call it a block size increase, this just your definition of block size increase

4985
07:16:24,914 --> 07:16:27,553
doesn't bother me now. So that's kind of my opinion.

4986
07:16:30,034 --> 07:16:36,994
Oh, right. So yeah, the L1 node is not, you're saying they have defined a block size

4987
07:16:36,994 --> 07:16:44,034
increase as just someone getting what they want. I would, I would say that they're, they're,

4988
07:16:44,034 --> 07:16:48,193
they're, they're pretty abstract with their definition of block size increase and

4989
07:16:49,154 --> 07:16:53,634
they're, they're making a stretch, obviously. Like it's, it's obviously not using a

4990
07:16:54,353 --> 07:16:58,274
traditional kind of definition that we've historically used.

4991
07:16:59,874 --> 07:17:05,154
Right. Which is all the stuff that your node must do in order to know if the block is a valid

4992
07:17:05,154 --> 07:17:09,794
Bitcoin block. And if it is, if so, if it's a valid Bitcoin block, then not only are the,

4993
07:17:09,794 --> 07:17:13,794
all the rules being followed, the 21 million coin limit is being, no one is stealing anyone else's

4994
07:17:13,794 --> 07:17:18,754
money. No one is printing money. It's not counterfeiting, but also you need to know

4995
07:17:18,754 --> 07:17:23,553
if the block is valid because each new block is how many confirmations you have.

4996
07:17:24,514 --> 07:17:28,514
That's the only real way to measure confirmations is to run the software.

4997
07:17:29,553 --> 07:17:32,994
And that was what the whole thing is about. So anyone who says that they just,

4998
07:17:32,994 --> 07:17:35,313
they haven't read the BIP. If they read the BIP, they would know,

4999
07:17:36,274 --> 07:17:38,674
they would just literally know it does not change the,

5000
07:17:38,674 --> 07:17:45,154
there's a line of code that sets the block size or now the block weight limit.

5001
07:17:45,953 --> 07:17:50,593
And that line of code does not change. They would just literally know that that to be

5002
07:17:50,593 --> 07:17:54,674
factually the case. So if they're against it, then they have to

5003
07:17:55,713 --> 07:17:59,953
state a reason why they're against it. I can give you a very sinister interpretation

5004
07:17:59,953 --> 07:18:08,353
of a lot of these people. Like the right now there's a big monopoly on Bitcoin Core development

5005
07:18:08,833 --> 07:18:14,193
people cannot break in, but post sidechain world, anyone is allowed to just launch a chain.

5006
07:18:14,193 --> 07:18:19,953
And so that means the sort of monopolist guild is kind of over and they have to compete.

5007
07:18:20,674 --> 07:18:26,114
Developers post sidechain world would be a little bit like miners are now where it's like

5008
07:18:26,754 --> 07:18:30,674
every two weeks, it just, the game resets and you have to, you know,

5009
07:18:30,674 --> 07:18:37,473
no one would ever have to come to Peter Todd again for like his critique or Greg Maxwell.

5010
07:18:37,473 --> 07:18:40,514
It would be completely over. The gatekeeping would be over.

5011
07:18:41,794 --> 07:18:44,514
And that would mean that they are just not as prestigious.

5012
07:18:45,553 --> 07:18:50,193
Whereas right now it's this big process. You see the process is like Jeremy Rubin has to

5013
07:18:50,193 --> 07:18:54,754
survive this process. But if in a sidechain world, they would just launch one 19 chain

5014
07:18:55,953 --> 07:19:00,833
and then there'd be no reason to, you know, whatever, get anyone's opinion.

5015
07:19:00,833 --> 07:19:02,914
It would just be trial and error. So like right now,

5016
07:19:04,169 --> 07:19:07,089
it's like there's only one kitchen and only cooks one kind of food and we all

5017
07:19:07,089 --> 07:19:09,689
have to agree. And what if the food is poisoned or whatever?

5018
07:19:10,169 --> 07:19:11,689
But in a post sidechain world,

5019
07:19:11,689 --> 07:19:14,449
you're allowed to leave the kitchen and you can walk down the street to the food

5020
07:19:14,449 --> 07:19:19,449
court and you have McDonald's and you have the Italian restaurant and you have

5021
07:19:19,569 --> 07:19:21,049
the fancy French food restaurant.

5022
07:19:23,408 --> 07:19:26,568
So it would be, there are some people who are, and one of the people,

5023
07:19:27,169 --> 07:19:29,728
a similar type of person who loses quite a bit

5024
07:19:30,728 --> 07:19:34,728
would be like a, like a John Carvalho type gatekeeper enforcer person.

5025
07:19:34,728 --> 07:19:37,729
Sinobie and John Carvalho, they have a sinister,

5026
07:19:37,729 --> 07:19:41,729
I don't know if this is what actually motivates them or not,

5027
07:19:41,729 --> 07:19:44,729
but they are sort of military industrial complex.

5028
07:19:44,729 --> 07:19:48,729
They would be obsoleted to some extent.

5029
07:19:48,729 --> 07:19:52,729
And also it's very bad for anyone who has invested a lot in some kind of

5030
07:19:52,729 --> 07:19:55,729
competing thing. Take your pick.

5031
07:19:56,729 --> 07:19:57,729
But there are a lot of different,

5032
07:19:57,729 --> 07:20:00,729
a lot of different companies have been started and people poured a lot of

5033
07:20:00,729 --> 07:20:03,729
money into and what,

5034
07:20:03,729 --> 07:20:08,728
like what about the value of people's stock options would, would change.

5035
07:20:08,728 --> 07:20:12,728
So I don't know if that, you know, I hate to impute any sinister,

5036
07:20:12,728 --> 07:20:18,728
but I think it is fair for anyone in the audience to say, well,

5037
07:20:18,728 --> 07:20:22,728
why, why are people against this idea if it's so good?

5038
07:20:23,728 --> 07:20:24,728
And I just say,

5039
07:20:24,728 --> 07:20:30,728
I just humbly suggest that there are some some sinister motives mixed in with

5040
07:20:31,728 --> 07:20:33,728
what is most, I think what's most of the cases,

5041
07:20:33,728 --> 07:20:37,728
it's just very difficult to keep up with everything and people are too busy

5042
07:20:37,728 --> 07:20:40,728
and they haven't looked into it. And I think most people don't,

5043
07:20:40,728 --> 07:20:44,728
most people are of course complete.

5044
07:20:46,728 --> 07:20:50,728
People are just like, they are phonies and they don't, you know,

5045
07:20:50,728 --> 07:20:51,728
they're bullshitters and they just,

5046
07:20:51,728 --> 07:20:54,728
they hear something on Twitter and they just repeat it.

5047
07:20:54,728 --> 07:20:57,728
So those are the usual suspects of course,

5048
07:20:57,728 --> 07:21:00,728
but there are some sinister motivations mixed in. I mean,

5049
07:21:00,728 --> 07:21:05,728
I think it would be sort of embarrassing for Blockstream if to some extent if

5050
07:21:05,728 --> 07:21:10,728
the sidechain idea came from somewhere else and turned out to be like a big

5051
07:21:10,728 --> 07:21:15,729
hit. So I don't know if, you know, we could,

5052
07:21:15,729 --> 07:21:20,729
we could, I think it would be fair to ask like who,

5053
07:21:20,729 --> 07:21:24,729
which people own like Blockstream stock options or something, but I don't,

5054
07:21:24,729 --> 07:21:25,729
you know,

5055
07:21:25,729 --> 07:21:28,729
I bet it's possible that that could be important or maybe it's not important

5056
07:21:28,729 --> 07:21:29,729
at all.

5057
07:21:32,729 --> 07:21:36,729
I think the, I think there is something to like the,

5058
07:21:36,729 --> 07:21:41,729
a lot of it is like a purity contamination access where people think

5059
07:21:41,729 --> 07:21:44,729
something like, can,

5060
07:21:44,729 --> 07:21:48,729
we don't want this thing to be contaminated by any large block ism.

5061
07:21:48,729 --> 07:21:51,729
So even though BIP300 sanitizes that perfectly,

5062
07:21:51,729 --> 07:21:58,729
then it's not necessarily the case that people would want to be in favor of it.

5063
07:22:01,729 --> 07:22:04,729
Hello, Mr. Roz, go ahead with your question or comment.

5064
07:22:12,729 --> 07:22:13,729
I guess he doesn't have one.

5065
07:22:16,729 --> 07:22:19,729
Okay. Anyone else? We have been going for a long time.

5066
07:22:23,729 --> 07:22:26,729
Paul. Yeah, we think it's ours.

5067
07:22:26,729 --> 07:22:27,729
Yeah.

5068
07:22:27,729 --> 07:22:30,729
With you guys in the beginning and a surprise to see you guys still going.

5069
07:22:30,729 --> 07:22:31,729
Yeah.

5070
07:22:31,729 --> 07:22:32,729
Yeah.

5071
07:22:32,729 --> 07:22:33,729
Yeah.

5072
07:22:33,729 --> 07:22:34,729
Yeah.

5073
07:22:34,729 --> 07:22:35,729
Yeah.

5074
07:22:35,729 --> 07:22:36,729
Yeah.

5075
07:22:36,729 --> 07:22:37,729
So I think, you know,

5076
07:22:37,729 --> 07:22:40,729
you were just talking about like some of the critics, right.

5077
07:22:40,729 --> 07:22:43,729
And you know, some people, again,

5078
07:22:43,729 --> 07:22:44,729
I told you mentioned to you guys earlier,

5079
07:22:44,729 --> 07:22:45,709
have the... it.

5080
07:22:46,009 --> 07:22:47,089
This will be the last question.

5081
07:22:47,189 --> 07:22:47,609
Go right ahead.

5082
07:22:47,729 --> 07:22:49,029
Thank you so much for your...

5083
07:22:49,029 --> 07:22:51,109
Sure. For your presence here.

5084
07:22:51,109 --> 07:22:52,849
Yeah. appreciate your guys' as well.

5085
07:22:53,929 --> 07:22:58,809
Yeah, question. mean, so I think, you know, you were just talking about, like, some of

5086
07:22:58,809 --> 07:23:00,149
the critics, right?

5087
07:23:00,809 --> 07:23:03,189
you know, some people, again,

5088
07:23:03,486 --> 07:23:06,306
I told you, I to you guys earlier, I'm coming into stuff with an open mind, happy to

5089
07:23:06,306 --> 07:23:09,086
learn, know, I hope that this can be something that can be cool.

5090
07:23:09,246 --> 07:23:11,366
So if that is the case, I'm for it.

5091
07:23:11,366 --> 07:23:14,646
And if there's holes and, you know, issues, then I'm against it, right?

5092
07:23:14,706 --> 07:23:16,066
I think it's kind of that simple for me.

5093
07:23:16,566 --> 07:23:17,106
I agree with you.

5094
07:23:17,106 --> 07:23:21,546
Some people may have, you know, other incentives and that kind of, you know, infers

5095
07:23:21,546 --> 07:23:22,066
kind of

5096
07:23:22,383 --> 07:23:24,523
reason to be against stuff.

5097
07:23:25,083 --> 07:23:30,943
But one thing that I know that's sort of tough to convince a lot of people, Like I'm a

5098
07:23:30,943 --> 07:23:36,703
big believer that it's easier to sell people on things if they can obviously tangibly

5099
07:23:36,703 --> 07:23:39,243
see something or play around with something, right?

5100
07:23:39,343 --> 07:23:41,000
Like with what we're doing, it

5101
07:23:42,260 --> 07:23:47,180
I'm if have

5102
07:23:47,180 --> 07:23:48,480
any

5103
07:23:48,480 --> 07:23:55,640
or

5104
07:23:56,100 --> 07:23:59,757
I I'm you guys questions or

5105
07:23:59,877 --> 07:24:03,057
this inaction for themselves?

5106
07:24:03,437 --> 07:24:09,297
think the ability for it to tangibly actually feel and seem real before

5107
07:24:09,297 --> 07:24:14,317
it is, think could be helpful in a direction of point critics to actually try it for

5108
07:24:14,317 --> 07:24:15,597
themselves if that is possible.

5109
07:24:17,657 --> 07:24:18,297
No, you're absolutely right.

5110
07:24:18,297 --> 07:24:18,437
the

5111
07:24:18,774 --> 07:24:20,774
to learn is to try the software.

5112
07:24:21,174 --> 07:24:25,934
The software is dangerous in the Bitcoin community to run software that you don't

5113
07:24:25,934 --> 07:24:30,534
understand. safest thing is create a virtual box or something.

5114
07:24:31,974 --> 07:24:37,271
If you don't have any Bitcoin keys stored on this machine, which of course

5115
07:24:37,331 --> 07:24:42,471
I don't advocate anyone having any keys on any internet connected machine, but this is

5116
07:24:42,471 --> 07:24:43,531
a long story for another day.

5117
07:24:43,771 --> 07:24:46,011
But we have this, we have software that you can try.

5118
07:24:46,091 --> 07:24:51,891
go to, I said like a LayerTwoLabs.com and it's also a Drivechain.info slash

5119
07:24:51,891 --> 07:24:52,531
releases.

5120
07:24:53,851 --> 07:24:56,028
And the software we have lets you just play

5121
07:24:56,068 --> 07:24:59,748
around in regtest mode with PlayMoney, which is great.

5122
07:25:00,208 --> 07:25:05,308
we're releasing a new version very soon, so it's probably better if you don't go this

5123
07:25:05,308 --> 07:25:08,828
exact moment, but go on Monday or go whatever on Sunday.

5124
07:25:10,528 --> 07:25:14,528
Do it tomorrow because we a new release coming out.

5125
07:25:15,285 --> 07:25:19,905
that is definitely the best way to see for yourself exactly what is happening.

5126
07:25:21,145 --> 07:25:23,805
And I think you're absolutely a thousand percent right.

5127
07:25:23,945 --> 07:25:29,765
If people actually see it all, see there's like the Bitcoin Core window, and then they

5128
07:25:29,765 --> 07:25:33,525
see the window in a different software application

5129
07:25:33,542 --> 07:25:38,262
that just like looks different and it's like a Zcash thing and they click the button

5130
07:25:38,262 --> 07:25:40,762
and they say, the coins moved from here to there.

5131
07:25:40,942 --> 07:25:42,182
They see the coins move.

5132
07:25:43,262 --> 07:25:44,502
The coins have moved over.

5133
07:25:45,342 --> 07:25:49,202
Well, then you kind of get a much better idea of what's really happening, which is it's

5134
07:25:49,202 --> 07:25:52,262
spending your coins to

5135
07:25:52,299 --> 07:25:56,719
a BIP300 script, depositing them to a sidechain, you're sending them to a different

5136
07:25:56,719 --> 07:25:57,539
piece of software.

5137
07:25:58,559 --> 07:26:02,139
Well, that's not really different than you just sending them to like a merchant or

5138
07:26:02,139 --> 07:26:08,079
sending them, you know, you send and receive coins on L1, but this is like L1's problem

5139
07:26:08,079 --> 07:26:09,159
and then there's L2.

5140
07:26:09,459 --> 07:26:11,019
And then you can see, you

5141
07:26:11,056 --> 07:26:15,736
see the coins move in one direction the deposits work instantly and then you can see

5142
07:26:15,736 --> 07:26:18,936
the withdrawals and since it's in reg test mode you can just click a little button to

5143
07:26:18,936 --> 07:26:23,896
mine a block whenever you like and I think you're 100 correct that people that running

5144
07:26:23,896 --> 07:26:28,516
the software is by far the best way to learn what is actually happening.

5145
07:26:28,776 --> 07:26:29,596
What about for like non

5146
07:26:30,033 --> 07:26:34,413
people? I know that I can understand some of the challenges maybe there, right?

5147
07:26:34,533 --> 07:26:38,873
some of it is like you sort of need obviously technical people to take the base level

5148
07:26:38,873 --> 07:26:41,113
software and then build something that's much more user -friendly.

5149
07:26:41,193 --> 07:26:46,633
But is there anything like that that can help sort of non -developer?

5150
07:26:47,633 --> 07:26:48,473
Well, I think

5151
07:26:55,709 --> 07:26:58,009
Paul I think we lost you there I

5152
07:26:59,769 --> 07:27:04,449
Can't hear Paul No me neither Yeah, think he's broken

5153
07:27:05,449 --> 07:27:08,349
Yeah, Paul. Could you leave and rejoin?

5154
07:27:09,589 --> 07:27:11,344
great This

5155
07:27:11,544 --> 07:27:14,344
space has been going on for seven and half hours now.

5156
07:27:22,324 --> 07:27:27,304
Anyway, so we're trying to get Mac and Windows versions so that they're just like click

5157
07:27:27,304 --> 07:27:30,958
button level. And that would be, that's basically as non -technical

5158
07:27:31,038 --> 07:27:32,938
as it's realistically going to get.

5159
07:27:33,738 --> 07:27:38,578
So have some of that and yeah I think people will then get it like it's like you know

5160
07:27:38,578 --> 07:27:42,918
if you send coins from like Microsoft Word to Microsoft Excel

5161
07:27:42,918 --> 07:27:47,838
it's kind of like you understand oh I get it Word and Excel are just the different

5162
07:27:47,838 --> 07:27:50,558
things and I hope

5163
07:27:50,572 --> 07:27:54,132
that Hector would get it also.

5164
07:27:55,212 --> 07:27:59,672
What he wants is Microsoft Excel, and that's exactly what he gets.

5165
07:28:00,332 --> 07:28:03,452
Microsoft Word is somewhere else off to the side, but that doesn't really matter.

5166
07:28:05,652 --> 07:28:07,732
I 100,000 % agree with you.

5167
07:28:07,772 --> 07:28:09,112
Running the software is the best way.

5168
07:28:09,112 --> 07:28:10,187
We've actually worked

5169
07:28:10,347 --> 07:28:15,927
kind of, I would say pretty hard on the GUI even, to have it explain what's going on.

5170
07:28:16,027 --> 07:28:20,147
have like buttons and stuff that mouse over text.

5171
07:28:22,407 --> 07:28:28,147
Before we wrap up this seven and half hour space, I wanted to give a

5172
07:28:28,147 --> 07:28:29,801
moment for a speaker

5173
07:28:29,861 --> 07:28:32,481
to ask a question or share a comment.

5174
07:28:33,001 --> 07:28:35,521
Roz, would you like to say something?

5175
07:28:38,781 --> 07:28:40,261
I don't see him.

5176
07:28:40,361 --> 07:28:41,721
only see block 6x.

5177
07:28:44,261 --> 07:28:46,401
Oh it seems like he went back to listening.

5178
07:28:46,561 --> 07:28:48,601
about block? I thought he was on the speaker stage.

5179
07:28:48,781 --> 07:28:49,321
Block 6x.

5180
07:28:49,835 --> 07:28:53,415
why don't you have the last word, or the last thing, or whatever.

5181
07:28:54,575 --> 07:28:55,255
Go ahead Block.

5182
07:28:57,635 --> 07:29:03,475
Yeah, I just wanted to see the integration with working with DAPPS, I noticed that on

5183
07:29:03,475 --> 07:29:04,895
the light paper.

5184
07:29:05,735 --> 07:29:09,030
Is there any way that we can work on some integration to be able to test

5185
07:29:09,030 --> 07:29:14,850
test this or we're pretty much just focusing specifically on getting this thing

5186
07:29:14,850 --> 07:29:19,630
on LiveNet here shortly with the new dev that you're bringing on.

5187
07:29:21,470 --> 07:29:24,430
I think now there's plenty of testing that could be done.

5188
07:29:24,970 --> 07:29:28,644
We can download the software and test to your heart's content and

5189
07:29:28,734 --> 07:29:30,964
and hang out in the Telegram group also.

5190
07:29:31,984 --> 07:29:35,044
That's good. So all that's fine.

5191
07:29:35,644 --> 07:29:36,464
Should be lots of testing.

5192
07:29:36,924 --> 07:29:37,884
Testing is good.

5193
07:29:39,684 --> 07:29:40,744
All right, perfect.

5194
07:29:42,844 --> 07:29:43,924
Where's the Telegram?

5195
07:29:44,184 --> 07:29:46,024
that on layer two's Twitter?

5196
07:29:46,224 --> 07:29:47,884
It's t.me slash

5197
07:29:48,258 --> 07:29:50,858
dcinsiders. It's kind of a joke.

5198
07:29:51,518 --> 07:29:52,538
Yes, Twitter bio.

5199
07:29:53,558 --> 07:29:59,558
our LayerTwo Labs Twitter handle bio has a link to the Telegram group as well as

5200
07:29:59,558 --> 07:30:05,218
our YouTube channel which has lots of lectures and anyone can go to

5201
07:30:05,218 --> 07:30:07,873
layer2labs.com and

5202
07:30:08,033 --> 07:30:11,553
download the testnet software and participate in the testnet.

5203
07:30:12,533 --> 07:30:18,413
There is also a lot of literature available and essays and analyses at Drivechain

5204
07:30:18,413 --> 07:30:19,113
.info.

5205
07:30:22,073 --> 07:30:23,973
Thank you everyone who's been here for this space.

5206
07:30:24,373 --> 07:30:26,893
This is probably one of our longest spaces ever,

5207
07:30:27,487 --> 07:30:28,647
over seven hours long.

5208
07:30:28,847 --> 07:30:32,647
Thanks for all the questions and comments, participation and support.

5209
07:30:34,147 --> 07:30:36,627
We'll see you all next week right here on Twitter.

5210
07:30:37,367 --> 07:30:40,687
Every week on Friday we talk here on Twitter.

5211
07:30:41,827 --> 07:30:45,787
We welcome all of you back, whether you're a critic or a supporter or a newcomer.

5212
07:30:47,782 --> 07:30:52,802
any final thoughts before we wrap no I think it's been really great thanks everyone

5213
07:30:52,802 --> 07:30:58,582
remind remind if you see any haters on Twitter in

5214
07:30:58,582 --> 07:31:03,342
Friday to Friday you know just everyone's invited there's no one is not invited or

5215
07:31:03,342 --> 07:31:06,162
whatever who's invited so they can come up and say whatever

5216
07:31:06,716 --> 07:31:11,216
whatever they want to say did we not we had mr.

5217
07:31:11,376 --> 07:31:14,556
Hoddle we invited you know be then come up so yeah I wish mr.

5218
07:31:14,756 --> 07:31:16,056
Hoddle I wish mr.

5219
07:31:16,196 --> 07:31:22,036
Hoddle had stayed longer if he's welcome to come back and he'll be given the stage and

5220
07:31:22,036 --> 07:31:26,256
the open open mic for him to only have time to say like six things that were just

5221
07:31:26,330 --> 07:31:29,370
flatly wrong and then he later admitted that they were wrong basically.

5222
07:31:29,510 --> 07:31:31,230
he was out of here pretty quick.

5223
07:31:31,610 --> 07:31:34,890
He was, well, he was very reasonable, thought.

5224
07:31:35,290 --> 07:31:40,510
seemed like his phone, his thing did the double icon thing, which often happens before

5225
07:31:40,510 --> 07:31:43,590
someone crashes. So I think his thing actually crashed.

5226
07:31:44,190 --> 07:31:45,945
Yeah, it could

5227
07:31:45,985 --> 07:31:50,045
have happened. Speakers have issues joining and rejoining sometimes, Mr.

5228
07:31:50,325 --> 07:31:52,225
Hoddle's Mr. Hoddle's welcome.

5229
07:31:52,405 --> 07:31:54,665
Shinobi's welcome. Peter Todd is welcome.

5230
07:31:54,785 --> 07:31:57,585
Everyone is welcome to come and debate.

5231
07:32:00,505 --> 07:32:01,485
Okay, great, cool.

5232
07:32:01,565 --> 07:32:02,165
See everyone later.

5233
07:32:03,105 --> 07:32:03,505
Thanks a lot.

5234
07:32:04,485 --> 07:32:05,285
Bye, everybody.

5235
07:32:05,799 --> 07:32:06,539
see you next week.