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All righty, all righty.

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I'm tweeting it out right now.

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Live with Paul Sztorc, Sztorc is the correct pronunciation, yeah.

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Here we go.

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Here we go.

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Wait.

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Hold on.

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Hold on, Paul.

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Let me properly tweet this out.

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Here we go.

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Here we go.

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But then here we wait.

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And then here we go again.

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It is tweeted.

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It's out there.

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Yeah.

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If you can retweet it on your end, that'd be great.

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Okay.

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Let's see it.

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Sztorc.

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Yeah.

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I heard you mention it on a recent...

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You don't have to do like...

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It's not too much of a...

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The SC is pretty normal, Sztorc.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Sztorc.

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No, but the Polish, because I know, like, Żywiec, right?

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Yeah.

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It's exactly the same ending, or Dobranoc, which is good night.

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Dobranoc.

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Yeah.

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I know some Polish.

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So that ends in the same ROC.

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ROC is basically the same.

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Same thing.

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I've been to Poland many times.

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Beautiful place.

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Really?

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Mm-hmm.

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All right.

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I've actually never been.

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I had a couple opportunities to go, and I didn't take any.

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Really?

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I got the closest I got.

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Now I'm more surprised than you are.

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Yeah.

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You're a...

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I'd really like to go.

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I'm half Polish.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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I don't see it yet, so hopefully I got it.

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Hopefully it'll come soon.

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You know, every now and then I think, what's Elon doing to this site?

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You know?

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Yeah.

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No, yeah.

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You should definitely go.

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We just had MoneroCon in Warsaw.

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Yeah.

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I wasn't there, unfortunately.

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Okay, but yeah, you tagged me TruthCoin though, right?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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Is that not your...

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It is.

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Yeah.

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Oh, okay.

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I didn't see it.

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Maybe I have to see.

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Well, I'm sure we'll see it.

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Really?

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Yeah.

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I'm sure we'll see it.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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I don't blame you though.

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I blame the...

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I mean, it could be...

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The duct tape they're using to hold this website together.

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We can't complain though, right?

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I mean, I guess we can.

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It's great.

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Well, you know...

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That's a good point.

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It's kind of like...

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You should just be able to see it streaming though on X, no?

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You don't see the MoneroTalk?

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If I just go to MoneroTalk.

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Search MoneroTalk.

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Yeah.

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Are we censored to that degree where you can't even find a stream?

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It's interesting.

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It might be worth looking into.

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Yeah.

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I think MoneroTalk and the Monero...

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Our Monero accounts have been a victim of...

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No, no, no.

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You didn't...

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You just did my name.

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You didn't do...

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No, I added TruthCoin though at the end.

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I did though.

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Oh, shit.

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Really?

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Okay.

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I think you forgot.

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I tried to.

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All right.

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I'll repost it now.

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We did it.

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You're going to get people riveting three minutes of technical support or whatever.

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It's all right.

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We're waiting for everybody to roll on in.

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We got 40 live viewers.

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Guys, like and share.

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Hopefully it's not as difficult for you guys to find the stream as it is for us.

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Yeah, I was watching the notification.

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I tried to put in the add TruthCoin, I swear, at the end.

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I don't know.

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What the hell, man?

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I really, really...

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Huh.

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X.

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We got to blame it on X.

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Blame it on Elon.

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There's a lot of weird...

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X does some pretty weird stuff sometimes.

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You just think, what?

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Yeah.

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The thing where you go to click on...

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It loads the tweets in and then you go to click on one and it loads a bunch of them.

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It is just hard to be upset about it though, right?

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Talk about first world...

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It's amazing what's happening on X.

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The access we have versus five, 10 years ago.

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Everybody's there.

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All the latest news.

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The space...

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Spaces are...

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I love spaces, right?

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This idea that everybody can just be talking live to each other.

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We all know.

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I mean, you and I do at least.

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I don't know.

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I'm not sure how we could maybe explain this to people who are super young, but
yeah, when

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the internet was just anonymous people, and this still happens, of course, but
people

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just talking over text and you can't see the other person's emotional reaction and
they're

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not like...

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And the text is just hanging there forever.

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People get into the flame wars and stuff.

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But when you go into spaces, it's kind of like, oh, this is a real person.

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I'm responsible for how I sound and in front of this audience.

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So people conduct themselves much better.

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Oh, yeah.

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Night and day.

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There's so much more nuance there.

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And then obviously in person is even better, right?

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That's ideal.

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We got to get you to Monero Topia, man.

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I would love to get you.

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I think I tried to get you the last time when I had you on the show.

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The last couple of them have been in Mexico City.

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It's an amazing conference.

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As long as it's in the winter.

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Yes.

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Usually, yeah.

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It's always beautiful and warm down in Mexico City.

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Vlad is with us, man.

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Our culture, regardless.

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Not sure who he's referring to, but nice to see Vlad.

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I know Vlad, I'm sure he's had you on his show a couple of times, right?

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That's right.

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So, yeah, maybe we could break Vlad's record.

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What was the longest show with you?

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Probably like 12 hours or something.

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Yeah, we're not doing that here.

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We don't do that here.

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We have a decently long show.

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Probably an hour and a half is like a long show.

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Try to keep it to an hour.

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Sometimes we have like a crazy long show, but Vlad, I respect Vlad for his super
long

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form.

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Longer isn't always better.

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Yeah, no.

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I think, though, there is definitely something to it that he's picked up on, which
is that

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the new podcast format, kind of like Trump was kind of like maybe the first podcast
president

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or something, you know, whatever you want to call it, because you had the first
radio

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00:07:06,280 --> 00:07:09,920
president, then you had the first social media, probably the Ron Paul revolution,
like all

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that stuff.

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Then you had Obama on Facebook, and then you kind of had Trump on Twitter.

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Trump 1 was kind of like the first Twitter president in a way, but then there was a
podcast

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president.

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00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:25,920
Conway didn't go on Joe Rogan or whatever, but the long form, you know, there's just

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a limit to how long you can like cumulatively bullshit someone.

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So yeah, so I think that's what Vlad has kind of picked up on.

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If you go like six hours, like they can't, you know, you can't just...

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00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:45,160
And if you know that you could go for six hours, you're not going to tell some lie
early

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on because you're going to think this is going to get unraveled over, you know, they
will

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look at it.

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It's like the court, the court process is super slow.

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00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:52,720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:58,240
I mean, there's so much to talk about, honestly, if you're, you know, super nerdy
like we are

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00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,040
and actually really into this stuff, right?

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00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,520
So it's like, it's not forced.

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I respect Manero talk too.

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Thanks Vlad.

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Thank you, man.

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I appreciate that.

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00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,720
But yeah, we have Paul on today.

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00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:16,040
Somebody said I had to get you on to talk about, obviously, you got the side chains.

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00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:20,560
I was just checking, looking back in the archives, I had you on like two years ago
and we were

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00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:28,040
obviously talking about the side chains and how you're theorizing them and the
Bitcoin

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community was never really accepting of the idea.

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But I think at that time, I don't think you were even proposing to actually go make
it

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live essentially on your own.

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00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:39,880
I think that was before you had...

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That's right.

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00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:41,880
Right.

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00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,840
And so maybe you could, I guess, first give a quick first intro of yourself.

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00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,000
Maybe not everyone on Manero talk knows who you are.

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And then if you could tell us the general concept of side chains and what's happened

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essentially since I had you on last time in terms of, now it looks like you're
actually

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going to try to go live with a fork of Bitcoin that's running side chains.

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00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,520
Basically, I'm a Bitcoin maximalist for like 15 years.

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00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:14,680
And I first met Riccardo Spogni, I met him at Sochi Roundtable 2 in person.

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00:09:14,680 --> 00:09:16,720
And he was like, oh, he's like, oh, I read your blog.

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Because at the time, my blog was like super, super critical of like most things.

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I was like, all these ideas suck.

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So I was like, oh, I was like, oh, my God, am I going to get beat up or something
now?

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He was super, super nice.

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00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,660
He's like, yeah, I agree with everything that you said.

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And so I've known him for a long time.

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I don't remember when that was, but that must have been like 2014 or 2015 or
something like

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that.

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So that was how long I was aware of Manero.

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And of course, I was a huge fan of Bitcoin Uncensored.

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And Manero basically had one of the few interviews to basically run the gauntlet and
survive

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the Bitcoin Uncensored interview.

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00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,620
And so I always had like kind of a positive opinion of Manero.

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00:09:54,620 --> 00:10:00,420
And then eventually, you know, as probably you guys know, it came to pass that.

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00:10:00,420 --> 00:10:03,800
So because I originally had heard about Bitcoin from the Silk Road article about
like buying

256
00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:05,400
drugs online.

257
00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:09,600
And even though I wasn't interested in buying any drugs online, I was kind of like,
what's

258
00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:10,600
this all about?

259
00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:11,600
Like, why can't they use the credit?

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00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:13,600
This is how little I understood about everything at the time.

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00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,680
I was like, why can't they just use a credit card like everyone else?

262
00:10:16,680 --> 00:10:17,880
So it didn't really make sense to me.

263
00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:19,320
But I was like, this is intriguing.

264
00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:26,240
And in particular, I kind of was thinking, if people are buying hard drugs with
this,

265
00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:31,040
someone who's addicted to drugs, they would, you know, it must be ironclad.

266
00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:32,040
You know what I mean?

267
00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:36,680
It must be perfect, because they would obviously be trying to just grab any extra
drugs they

268
00:10:36,680 --> 00:10:41,200
could get, since that's their like mission in life when you become a drug addict.

269
00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,960
So I was like, this whole thing must have been like totally worked out already.

270
00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,320
And like when no one was paying attention, there's this whole TOR mark.

271
00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:54,680
So that's that was kind of how I got first Bitcoin like came on my radar at all.

272
00:10:54,680 --> 00:10:59,200
And then, of course, it came to pass that Manero, all these sites became Manero
only.

273
00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,800
Also it seemed kind of like I just look at the blink of an eye, because again, I was

274
00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,360
not a regular customer, so to speak, of these of these sites.

275
00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:10,760
But I was like taking a very serious interest in like tracking this down and say,
like,

276
00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,080
how does this work exactly?

277
00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,920
And then it seemed to me like you just blinked and they were all not only were they
accepting

278
00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,640
Manero, but they were like Manero only.

279
00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:21,700
And I was like, huh.

280
00:11:21,700 --> 00:11:25,440
And so that was very intriguing to me.

281
00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:33,120
And over time, it does seem like Manero people are like really putting in the hard
work to

282
00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:39,160
like actually build something slow and targeting the real heart and soul.

283
00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,160
Because, of course, I hate to make this so long winded, but I think it's very, very

284
00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:49,200
important. The Bitcoin Uncensored podcast, you know, it had like a lot of like rock

285
00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:54,800
solid beliefs, some of which some of these were like if.

286
00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:01,640
How should we say this? It's like if we compete with, you know, if we only compete
for

287
00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:03,560
the like white market.

288
00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:09,600
The kind of everything that Venmo can do, then we're going to get roped into
competing

289
00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,600
with Venmo and we'll lose because all this blockchain stuff, the proof of work and
the

290
00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:15,640
signatures and all the stuff doesn't really do anything.

291
00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:17,880
You know, we have to have this overhead.

292
00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,040
We have to have the one megabyte block size limit.

293
00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:25,400
Yada, yada, yada, like long list of things, all the stuff with the decentralized
design.

294
00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:30,400
So it was kind of like, yeah, whether you like it or not, you're betting your chip
like

295
00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:36,000
half of your army is deployed in the dark or gray market area.

296
00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:42,920
And so that was the thinking back in 2016, and I think that was 100 percent correct.

297
00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:45,880
And so it was like Monero is like capturing this.

298
00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,680
This gray market and, you know, this is how I would explain Bitcoin to people, too,
I'd

299
00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:53,800
say, well, Bitcoin could be used for all these illicit things.

300
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,560
Every country has these different laws, some of them completely different from each

301
00:12:57,560 --> 00:13:01,000
other. You know, you had like Amsterdam where many of these drugs were legal and
then

302
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:02,920
other countries are very illegal.

303
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:08,000
Different countries pass completely different laws, like at different times,
different

304
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:12,800
activities are decriminalized, you know, first with something, you know, 20 years
ago

305
00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:17,720
would have been a felony or 100 years ago, punishable by death is considered a human

306
00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,200
right in a short time.

307
00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,160
So it's kind of like, listen, you know, law or whatever.

308
00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,440
And then Bitcoin can be used for all these things.

309
00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,240
It doesn't matter if you or your trading partner wanted to do something.

310
00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:35,840
That is a gray market or black market, and then in addition to that, Bitcoin can do
all

311
00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,440
of the legal things, so just network effect.

312
00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:45,280
So that's basically how that was like my story, and then I saw I was very interested
to

313
00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:50,760
see that Monero is like taking that over about the side chains, the side chains is a

314
00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:51,760
very old idea.

315
00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:59,080
You know, Blockstream had this paper in 2014 and the original, yeah, there was this
big

316
00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,080
speech from like Reid Hoffman and blah, blah, blah.

317
00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,520
You know, there's all this fanfare a long time ago.

318
00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:10,360
And it was like, yeah, how do you get experimentation when people disagree?

319
00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:12,120
The blockchain can't disagree.

320
00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,320
But like, you know, it's like should the blocks be large or small, block size or,
you

321
00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:20,960
know, should we have this some type of privacy, should we have these ring signatures
or

322
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,560
should we not? Because one makes it harder to audit the supply and one gives you
more

323
00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:25,600
privacy. So.

324
00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:31,520
So this idea was, can we just like let people, we can have a different piece of
software,

325
00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:33,320
but the same 21 million coins.

326
00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:39,440
And yeah, this is a pretty important idea, in fact, my opinion was back in 2014,
2015

327
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:44,480
that this is the most important idea, the most important technology for BTC.

328
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:46,960
And I still hold that view.

329
00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:48,960
It's not just like something I'd prefer.

330
00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:54,080
You know, this is like a super, super important matter of life or death.

331
00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,000
And it also like it does lots and lots of things.

332
00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:00,680
Like it doesn't matter if you screw up the L1 or if the L1 gets captured, they start

333
00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:05,200
releasing bad software or even if the L1 is lazy or they make any kind of mistake
because

334
00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,000
now you escape on these different L2s.

335
00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,440
People launch new L2s, the L2s compete.

336
00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:16,320
The L2s can push, they can safely push the envelope of what you might do like with
like

337
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:21,680
a Solana chain or like some kind of super large BSV style chain.

338
00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:26,280
You can, whereas that would be ridiculous to put all of your eggs in one basket on
L1.

339
00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:31,360
But as an optional L2, it's a completely, it's a matter of night and day.

340
00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:36,160
You know, it's like these are just options on the menu now instead of being
something

341
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:40,440
you're forced at gunpoint to buy, where it would be theft if it was like you had to
buy

342
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,920
the filet mignon every, that's like BSV.

343
00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:48,320
You have to pay for the filet mignon every night with a large block size.

344
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:56,000
But now once it becomes an option and once it becomes, so I thought this was a
complete

345
00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:00,640
game changer for everything and it would kill all the altcoins because you wouldn't
need

346
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:06,160
any altcoins. And in fact, it would kill the altcoin narratives as well because
people

347
00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:11,640
would say, oh, this is my great altcoin that has such and such, you know, has the
EVM,

348
00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:14,000
Ethereum virtual machine.

349
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:15,320
And then it's like, well, it doesn't matter.

350
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,480
So that's, those are some of my, that's some of my speed.

351
00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,440
Okay. Yeah, there's a lot there.

352
00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:26,640
And so, so now, now you're going ahead and launching it, right?

353
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,720
Like you've been working on the idea for a long time.

354
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:38,640
You've been trying to convince people in the Monero community to adopt the idea on

355
00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:39,800
Monero as we know it.

356
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:41,560
But that hasn't happened.

357
00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,320
I haven't really focused on Monero people that much.

358
00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,160
I'm sorry, not Monero, Bitcoin, on Bitcoin.

359
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:47,520
You've been trying to get it adopted.

360
00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:51,840
Because my view is just that Bitcoin would adopt this thing and then all this
innovation

361
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:53,000
that the altcoin people are doing.

362
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,720
Just another thing that's changed is that in the past you had Litecoin, which is
like

363
00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:58,080
copy and paste to Bitcoin.

364
00:16:58,720 --> 00:16:59,840
So it was a lot more.

365
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:06,360
We did, we did talk last show about how it would be great to potentially implement
this

366
00:17:06,360 --> 00:17:09,360
on Monero. I don't know, I don't know what the Monero community's response would be.

367
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,440
But what are you doing, though?

368
00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,320
You're basically forking Bitcoin.

369
00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:17,520
Yeah, it's a new hard fork of Bitcoin.

370
00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:22,440
So it's comparable to like Bitcoin Cash split off type of a thing.

371
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:30,880
And yeah, it's the goal is to just either, you know, set a good example of what BTC
should

372
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,640
do or just increase the competitiveness.

373
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:39,640
Or if, you know, if BTC is really because my new view that, you know, I've I've had
this

374
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,440
view for kind of a long time, but I've just kind of waited, you know, desperately
hoping

375
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,840
that things would get better. But actually, my new view is that the problems in
Bitcoin

376
00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:54,240
are cultural and they cannot like easily be fixed, even if you had like great
technology

377
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:58,440
or even if you had because it's just very hard to fix a culture because culture is
like

378
00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,720
this weird thing that like everyone's brain like keeps producing every day.

379
00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,480
And so it's kind of just like, you know, the vibrations are off.

380
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:10,200
I think the Monero people have a better idea of that than most people that like BTC
is

381
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:14,240
kind of like, well, it's like a very it's the number one project and it's very
serious.

382
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:19,480
But then you've got like this treasury companies and you've got like no one raises
hell

383
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,120
when privacy devs go to jail.

384
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,120
There is a little bit of hell, but not enough.

385
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:27,000
Should be like a number one.

386
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:30,880
Should be like a number one priority.

387
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,120
But then you have people like kind of gutting it.

388
00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:40,000
So, yeah, not Vlad, Vlad says Paul is Satoshi.

389
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,560
You say ask Paul about Robin Hanson and the game theory of drive chains.

390
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,760
Well, I'm not sure about I didn't know if Robin Hanson knows that much about but,
you

391
00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:58,400
know, like there is an idea of the competition, you know, really flips things
around.

392
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:04,080
So like if you have if you live in a world where you just have like one guy in
charge of

393
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:08,360
everything, you go to him with your idea and you say, you know, we should do marine

394
00:19:08,360 --> 00:19:10,000
signatures for privacy or whatever.

395
00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,480
And they say no, but the idea is actually good.

396
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:16,960
Well, now you've got two problems.

397
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,480
One is they're not doing a good idea, but the second one is now this guy is
politically

398
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:22,560
inconvenient for you.

399
00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:28,480
To succeed because it will embarrass the decision maker, you know, the king or
whatever.

400
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,840
So competition changes everything, though.

401
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:36,080
So now when you get to say, well, I'll go to this, I'll just go across the street to
this

402
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,520
other side chain and they can implement this idea, we try them all.

403
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,840
And now, you know, it's a good thing that it's embarrassing for the people who are

404
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,240
everyone has to think about, hey, listen, I got to really think about how this idea
is.

405
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:49,880
Objectively.

406
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:53,960
And so that changes everything.

407
00:19:57,760 --> 00:19:58,760
OK.

408
00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:04,760
So you're what is the plan in terms of getting this off the ground?

409
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,760
And I guess you had met, right?

410
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:11,440
Your theory has always been kind of one chain to rule them all.

411
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,520
Right. And that's the whole concept of side chains.

412
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,760
And then that's really going to replace the altcoin ecosystem.

413
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,960
But you are effectively creating an altcoin right now in theory.

414
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:25,680
Right. Or I guess the original Bitcoin will then be the altcoin and this becomes the
one

415
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:33,720
and only. But overall, are you like how max maximalism or how maxi are you with
regards

416
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,240
to that point? I mean, has that have you has that changed?

417
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:43,160
Do you think there will be a few protocols like base layer protocols or do you think

418
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:48,360
it will eventually be one chain to rule them all with side chains?

419
00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:52,760
I think it's the difference between one chain to rule them all, one coin to rule
them all.

420
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:57,720
One coin. Actually, side chains are different chains and I'm in favor.

421
00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:04,680
And this is part of the beauty of it is that, yeah, in order to be future proof, you
would

422
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:09,240
need lots of different competing software teams, people who like each other and have

423
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,040
different ideas about what's best.

424
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,680
And that's the essential ingredient, because, you know, we're never going to be at
like

425
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:16,560
at the finish line of technology.

426
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,120
People always disagree. People always be inventing things.

427
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:30,480
And so that's that's a very important part of the like picture is that you have many

428
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:32,640
different chains. But I still think it would be one coin.

429
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:36,080
Like that's that's crazy to me.

430
00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:37,120
Really? You think you still.

431
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:39,120
Let me ask you this. Why do you think it's so crazy?

432
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:46,720
Because it's not one coin now and like, I don't know, it's just, you know, there's

433
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:48,520
multiple languages in the world.

434
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,560
There's multiple religions in the world.

435
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,280
Right. You know, that concept, like, right.

436
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:54,840
Why would there be just one?

437
00:21:55,600 --> 00:22:00,240
I don't know the exact figure, but if you can look at a chart of languages in the
world

438
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:05,560
and something like every 10 years, something like 10 languages go permanently
extinct or

439
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:10,440
something. So it's trending towards one language eventually.

440
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:15,440
And it's something language based is, you know, that has a lot of sunk cost already,

441
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:21,800
like every road sign and every law, you know, like the laws in Poland would be like

442
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,880
written in Polish and whatever the place and stuff like that.

443
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:30,440
So that's like a hard thing to there's a lot of staying power for a really small

444
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:35,560
staying power for a really small language, even though it's the smallest.

445
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:41,880
I think with money, it's like even the smallest, the smallest money, the smallest

446
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:43,640
coin is at a big disadvantage.

447
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,120
Most of the altcoins that are small, they just bleed out.

448
00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:49,800
The small gets smaller and the big get bigger.

449
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:56,840
Even today, Bitcoin, BTC is, you know, it's more than four times bigger than
Ethereum.

450
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:03,320
And it's Bitcoin is bigger still than everything else combined, still mostly even

451
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:11,400
today. So English is, you know, you can look at there was like the British Empire,
but

452
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,160
there were many empires over the years.

453
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,520
You know, there was like whatever we can name them all.

454
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:16,880
But there are a lot of different empires.

455
00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:22,720
In time of the Roman Empire, there were many more languages in time of the British

456
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:29,680
Empire. And then after World War Two, even in with the Internet and the
connectivity.

457
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:35,800
So when people do like a business transaction between like Germany and France, the

458
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:37,680
contracts are usually like in English.

459
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,840
So English is taking over English when people when I visited Europe.

460
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,160
Sure, sure. I mean, to right.

461
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,360
But the fact is there are multiple languages, right?

462
00:23:47,360 --> 00:23:51,800
Like, yes, maybe, you know, we could theorize as to eventually there might be one.

463
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,960
But the fact is, right now, there's multiple and there has been for as long as

464
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:57,320
mankind has existed.

465
00:23:57,360 --> 00:23:59,440
Well, you asked me about what will happen.

466
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,360
I didn't say, yeah, you're asking about right now.

467
00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:03,440
Do I think there is more than one cryptocurrency?

468
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:04,400
Of course, the answer is yes.

469
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:10,160
And but you understand that, of course, like this happened even in an age before
mass

470
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:11,960
media and before the Internet.

471
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,240
You know, it was it didn't take long for people to have really strong accent

472
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,760
differentiation just because some people had different ways of speaking, like they

473
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:27,600
could have been 10, 20 miles away, but they they had different accents and certain

474
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,480
slang and stuff that could come and go.

475
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:36,840
So it's easy to believe that, you know, 8000 years ago, everyone would be speaking

476
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:38,160
like a slightly different language.

477
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:43,280
That's very, very, very, very, very easy to believe just because the speed at which

478
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:48,000
language travel around the world was different from the speed at which it would

479
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,040
travel like from generation to generation.

480
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,080
And so that's you know, it's very easy to imagine that there would be.

481
00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:01,360
Many languages from people who are, you know, people in Australia and people in

482
00:25:02,103 --> 00:25:29,103
Yeah, no, I get the point. I get I totally get the point. But do you think that
maybe so if there is this one one coin, right, eventually to rule them all, the the
base layer protocol, do you think it needs to be fungible and private? The one that
effectively wins? Or do you think something like Bitcoin is good enough? That's not
really fungible?

483
00:25:29,103 --> 00:25:58,103
I think privacy is an important feature for the system to have. I think I agree with
the 2016 Bitcoin Uncensored argument that if we don't have like a subversive
privacy, then we're actually holding like kind of an empty bag, really. Because it
doesn't have that teeth, you know, like we could have. So if the system doesn't have
privacy in it somewhere, you know, it's not going to be fungible.

484
00:25:59,103 --> 00:26:24,103
To some extent, and it doesn't have the property rights, like the having a wallet
that has private keys that only you generated the randomness. But I don't think the
privacy, it's I don't think it's possible or necessary or desirable. Or as I said at
first, even possible for the privacy to be everywhere, because you can always opt
out of privacy, even if it's completely private.

485
00:26:24,103 --> 00:26:42,103
You can always say, here, I'm going to make my private transaction, but I'm also
going to register it in this public completely. I'm also going to tweet, for
example, I just bought this with Monero. But if I tweet that out, I take a picture
of it. So you can always opt out of privacy. And so that means just from a
philosophical dimension.

486
00:26:42,103 --> 00:26:58,103
The privacy is always optional, because you can always opt back in to the
surveillance world. So there's no such thing as like a mandatory. To me, there's no
such thing as like a mandatory privacy. So I don't think it's that important that we
have layer one privacy or.

487
00:26:59,103 --> 00:27:11,103
But from a fungibility standpoint, I get what you're saying, like you could always
opt out of privacy, but effectively that default privacy is what gives you
fungibility. Or do you think you could have fungibility without that?

488
00:27:12,103 --> 00:27:32,103
I think the monies, the different cryptocurrencies and all the fiat currencies also,
they're all in like a big tournament, like a Super Smash Brothers Melee or
something, you know, and so they're all going to fight. And yeah, if one can offer
more fungibility, it will have an edge over one that can't, where it's like, oh,
yeah, like someone is trading.

489
00:27:33,103 --> 00:27:46,103
Something where there's like just someone's trading antique clocks or something. And
you're like, is this clock real? Are people going to really respect this pocket
watch the same as the other pocket watch? And no one's going to want that stigma.

490
00:27:48,103 --> 00:28:09,103
The fungibility would be key. My conception of it is that we have L1, which kind of
resembles BTC. And then you can send the coins without talking to anyone else. This
is just with the software. You send the coins to like a private L2. In our case, we
have one that's based on Zside, the orchard crate from Zside.

491
00:28:09,103 --> 00:28:35,103
Yeah, but I guess what I'm getting, but why wouldn't you, because you kind of just
said it yourself, right? Like it's a Smash Brothers, you know, fight to the death,
right? And one of the advantages is the fungible one will probably have an advantage
over the others in the long run. So wouldn't you want this, you know, wouldn't you
want the base layer to basically be in, I hate to say it, encrypted Bitcoin versus
unencrypted Bitcoin?

492
00:28:35,103 --> 00:28:40,103
If we could start over, maybe, but I think...

493
00:28:40,103 --> 00:28:47,103
But you effectively are, right, you're, you are forking at this time. So couldn't
you make changes like this if you wanted to?

494
00:28:47,103 --> 00:28:59,103
I wish I could fork everyone's mind, you know, that would be good. But it's kind of
like, you know, like what if we were designing a new language from scratch? English
is actually kind of a terrible language. You know, they had like Esperanto and some
of these languages that are very, very...

495
00:28:59,103 --> 00:29:02,103
Monero is based on Esperanto.

496
00:29:03,103 --> 00:29:05,103
Yeah, someone told me that. I forgot about that, but that's cool.

497
00:29:05,103 --> 00:29:11,103
Yeah, the original name for Monero was actually Bit Monero. Bit Monero, so Bitcoin
and Esperanto.

498
00:29:12,103 --> 00:29:26,103
Yeah, that's neat. I didn't know that. And English is like this weird, I don't know
if you're interested in such things, but English is, of course, it started as like
Anglo-Saxon, ye olde English with be and vow and all this weird other stuff like
that.

499
00:29:26,103 --> 00:29:42,103
And then it got, the French invaded it, so the French Latin words got merged in. And
then through the British Empire, like it just absorbed a bunch of words like in kind
of like a chaotic way. And so English is actually like a horrendous language to
learn. A lot of people understand that.

500
00:29:42,103 --> 00:29:43,103
Exactly.

501
00:29:43,103 --> 00:29:53,103
That like, you know, it's these poor people, like when people come from like, you
get like baseball players from like Central America or something, like they can only
speak Spanish and they try to learn English and they're like...

502
00:29:54,103 --> 00:29:59,103
Polish is not that easy either, though. Polish is difficult for different reasons,
though, I guess.

503
00:29:59,103 --> 00:30:08,103
Polish sounds like just like non-tense language. Yeah, it just sounds like Dr. Seuss
book or something to English people.

504
00:30:09,103 --> 00:30:19,103
But wait, so let me fully understand, though, because from what I'm understanding
from what you're saying is like ideally, yes, you would like Bitcoin base layer to
be encrypted, but...

505
00:30:20,103 --> 00:30:37,103
Bitcoin is a brand and everyone knows about it and lots of people have studied the
software. And so every change you make to the BTC software is something that you
have to be, you have to know is good. You have to implement it right. You have to
explain it to everyone else and you have to be confident that they would be able to
explain the change.

506
00:30:37,103 --> 00:30:49,103
All of that is too much, too much what you might call baggage or it's just it's not
possible. So every change ways is like multiplied by a million.

507
00:30:49,103 --> 00:30:53,103
And that's like if we were going to try to start over with English, we could come up
with a better language.

508
00:30:54,103 --> 00:31:08,103
But everyone is already speaking English. Everyone is raising their kids to speak
English because everyone's expecting other people will raise their kids to speak
English because everyone expects this is going to be the language that of
international business and the number one military of the world and of all the
movies will be in English.

509
00:31:08,103 --> 00:31:23,103
And so there's too much of a network effect with BTC software code. And so I think
that we should take advantage of that. There's multiple different network effects
that they all network effect in there, but they're completely different categories
of thing.

510
00:31:23,103 --> 00:31:26,103
So this is kind of like, oh, would we really want to redesign?

511
00:31:27,103 --> 00:31:28,103
Whatever, Ubuntu.

512
00:31:28,103 --> 00:31:36,103
So if anything, you would have to be that like Zcash or Monero ads, ad side chains.
Right. And that's where we would see this competition play out.

513
00:31:36,103 --> 00:31:51,103
Yeah. The door is still open for an altcoin to win. And it could definitely be like
Monero or Litecoin or something like that, because if I'm right about the cultural
damage in BTC, it's kind of like it will just accumulate.

514
00:31:52,103 --> 00:32:06,103
It's kind of like an airplane that's been like taking off, but then now it's kind of
like leveling out and going down. So it's only a matter of time before it crashes
into the ground and all the passengers die in a fiery explosion, metaphorically
speaking, of course.

515
00:32:06,103 --> 00:32:24,103
But it's like the cultural problems in BTC are a situation where the people in BTC
have taken the wrong ideas and they've become like a self-perpetuating virus.

516
00:32:24,103 --> 00:32:32,103
And so they're just spreading like geometrically. So it's probably already I think
it might already be too late to save BTC, but we're going to still try to also do
that.

517
00:32:33,103 --> 00:32:48,103
I'm curious. So which cryptos do you see as being contenders, at least in that area,
that could, if it weren't Bitcoin and something else, were able to take over?

518
00:32:48,103 --> 00:32:55,103
One of the reasons why I'm hard forking is that no one is doing it quite the way I
would do it. So I'm saying this is my personal take on it.

519
00:32:55,103 --> 00:32:57,103
So one of yours is a contender, right?

520
00:32:57,103 --> 00:33:12,103
I would say this is what we should do. So for what I'm doing, the L1 is just a copy
of Bitcoin Core. So I say, listen, there's nothing wrong with Bitcoin Core, the
software, but the people behind Bitcoin Core are not that great.

521
00:33:12,103 --> 00:33:21,103
And the culture and everything is all being driven into the ground. But like I said,
I don't want to have to explain or justify any decision. So we'll do that.

522
00:33:21,103 --> 00:33:37,103
And then there's the idea of these modular L2s. So that's kind of like my take on
what would be the best. I think it's hard to say because we would want more
information on what is tried and what fails.

523
00:33:37,103 --> 00:33:52,103
So we'd want to figure out like why don't people like, for example, Monero. I'm not
saying that people don't like it, but it's sort of like it's currently lower on the
leaderboard. But the question is why?

524
00:33:52,103 --> 00:33:54,103
It's going up right now. It's flying high right now.

525
00:33:54,103 --> 00:34:03,103
Yeah. So it depends on the theory of why and if that theory is right. So that's kind
of a non-answer. But it's like, the question is why is Monero down?

526
00:34:03,103 --> 00:34:09,103
But I mean, people do like it. Like we said, it's the most used crypto on the dark
market. So it's like literally the most loved.

527
00:34:09,103 --> 00:34:27,103
Right. And I was going to say like people have said things like, well, OK, Monero is
so it's so private that exchanges don't want to touch it like right now. So it has a
disadvantage. It has an it appears to have has a there's an illusion that it's not
as liquid.

528
00:34:27,103 --> 00:34:37,103
But actually, this is just like a temporary thing once blah, blah, blah, swaps and
stuff are figured out and then they will come. The floodgates will open. That could
all be completely true.

529
00:34:37,103 --> 00:34:49,103
I do think it is a very good sign. And then I thought it was hilarious when the
Monero did like the Lord's work just by existing when there was the Michael Saylor
interview with Peter McCormick.

530
00:34:49,103 --> 00:34:58,103
I don't remember if that was I think that must have been was it after we were on or
did we talk about it then? Because I just think it's so funny. And it's when he
said, maybe you do need a Monero.

531
00:34:59,103 --> 00:35:01,103
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

532
00:35:01,103 --> 00:35:14,103
He's like, yeah, the market will determine that. And then talk about it. So I think
the key will be who I think the key, though, is who can grow the most. You know, it
is about adoption.

533
00:35:14,103 --> 00:35:23,103
And I think the Monero people are correct to bet on that each of the things will
have their own little micro network effect.

534
00:35:23,103 --> 00:35:40,103
Like, you know, once the once the darknet market, whatever you want to call it, like
evil overlord type archetype hacker person, once they set it up with Monero, they're
not going to want to take more time to look into some other new coin and be like,
oh, it's this other coin and then add that one.

535
00:35:41,103 --> 00:35:55,103
So there's a lot of things, you know, they have these set up costs. And so they that
has some network effects. So if you deploy your troops to get the darknet part, and
then this is what I was saying before about my original argument to people about why
Bitcoin would be valuable.

536
00:35:55,103 --> 00:36:12,103
They would say, well, hey, this thing is used by every criminal in the world. And
you can also use it if you're not a criminal. And then it's like, well, that's
that's a very strong. That is a very strong. That's a capturing the high ground or
the, you know, the commanding heights, as they used to call it.

537
00:36:12,103 --> 00:36:36,103
But so that's, that's a really good strategy, but it will be about growth. So if
there's a way of getting, you know, the A16Z flavor growth and the coinbase exchange
flavor growth and all the Michael Saylor.

538
00:36:36,103 --> 00:36:39,103
Well, that's what Zcash is focusing on, right?

539
00:37:07,103 --> 00:37:24,103
And then they're saying, like, the main message is like, oh, just don't break
Bitcoin or whatever. It's like, you know, that's what these people think, like
opt-in, op-nop, soft fork upgrade, where we've done many, many times and that's
opt-in and reversible and ignorable. That's like what they think you could break
Bitcoin with something like that.

540
00:37:25,103 --> 00:37:45,103
It's a culture of fear. It's a culture of ignorance, superstition. You know, the
hatred of the soft fork is like a superstitious, like being afraid of a black cat or
something. And yeah, you see. So, yeah. How far can the culture go when you have
this kind of this idiocy is running the show? And the same with Michael Saylor
where, you know, today he was saying about like, oh, I never said anyone.

541
00:37:46,103 --> 00:37:49,103
They're like in the dark ages over there.

542
00:37:49,103 --> 00:38:07,103
And it's like, yeah, this is like Rasputin or whatever, where it's like, you know,
this is like weird. These weird people have shown up and we're just going to follow
everyone over a cliff if we don't. You know, the termites are spreading and they're
eating the house and collapse and kill everyone.

543
00:38:07,103 --> 00:38:18,103
So how do you plan on rolling this out so it achieves the growth, the needed growth,
right? Because, I mean, you're starting from essentially zero here. So how do you
see that playing out?

544
00:38:19,103 --> 00:38:35,103
I'd just like to reiterate, I think our chances of success are low, but it's still
like, you know, worth doing. I saw a cool video about Elon said the odds of starting
Tesla. He said something like, yeah, our odds of success are like less than 10%.

545
00:38:35,103 --> 00:38:49,103
So I was like, well, that's the right attitude, because obviously if we succeed, we
flip BTC and go to like whatever. So it's like a hundred million X positive and then
it's like minus 100% if it's a complete failure.

546
00:38:50,103 --> 00:38:53,103
So, you know, but it's a pretty good gamble.

547
00:38:54,103 --> 00:39:15,103
Yeah. So it's like, and, you know, we got to get the message out and we have to. So,
but yeah. So for starters, you don't want to like be turning people away. So this is
the idea that the L1 will be the same as Bitcoin Core. People say, hey, are you
going to just like screw up all this stuff that I like? And then they tell us, no,
we're not going to delete anything that anyone likes.

548
00:39:15,103 --> 00:39:34,103
So if you like your silly lightning or something, I hate all this stuff, but it'll
still be there. Segwit and Taproot, whatever. It'll still be there. We'll keep it
the same as Bitcoin Core now and forever. Then the same for the L2s. The L2s, like,
you know, for the privacy L2, we just take the Zcash Orchard Crate. Turns out that
was the one that had the catastrophic bug, you know.

549
00:39:34,103 --> 00:40:00,103
But, you know, they fixed the bug. We also fixed it. So we copy it. So we're just
marking everyone, you know, it's open source. And so that's the idea is, you know,
and the issue is that these communities grow and then there's people agree for a
while and they say, oh, we agree that privacy is good. But then they say, oh, should
we keep it narrow? Should it be whatever, Zcash? Or should it be something else?

550
00:40:01,103 --> 00:40:16,103
And then you have these situations where, you know, you have Bitcoin, then Ethereum
shows up. But then there's like another Ethereum, you know, there's like Avalanche
and then there's like Solana and then there's like whatever. So you kind of have
like a live by the fork, die by the fork type of a thing.

551
00:40:16,103 --> 00:40:37,103
So the idea of the sidechain is whatever you want, as long as someone can code it
somewhere, as long as it exists, you know, you can have that as an optional L2. You
can try to get users. Everyone has the same coin. So that's the first thing is you
want to turn people away, you know, like that's what most every project currently
does is turn people away.

552
00:40:38,103 --> 00:40:48,103
I wouldn't say that about Monero specifically, but you see kind of what I mean,
especially in BTC, the toxic culture is like, you know, we're scaring the customers
away at the front door.

553
00:40:49,103 --> 00:41:11,103
Big time. And that's part of a misguided attempt to protect the culture. Really,
that's, I think that's really no different from, you know, what you might call like
SJW recreational sadism, kind of. It's really the same thing. It's the same kind of
sanctimonious like, oh, this is for the greater good. It's just an opportunity to
like be a huge jerk to people.

554
00:41:12,103 --> 00:41:24,103
But yeah, I was a maximalist for a long time. I just like to finally say that,
again, that was because like in the situation with Litecoin, it was like Satoshi
does all this work to create Bitcoin from nothing.

555
00:41:25,103 --> 00:41:38,103
Then you copy and paste that, which takes five seconds, and you change the block
time from 10 minutes to 2.5 minutes. And then you say this is a whole second thing.
And it's like, not really, if you really think about it. So that was kind of the
origin of the toxic maximalist.

556
00:41:39,103 --> 00:42:00,103
Now, that world is a million miles from a world where it's like Monero has chosen to
fight for privacy. And Bitcoin has just decided like we're just not going to do
anything at all for 10 years. We're going to do Segwit and Taproot to support
Lightning. And then we're going to lie to everyone and say that Taproot improves
privacy.

557
00:42:01,103 --> 00:42:06,103
I'm sure that must have been very annoying for Monero people. It was annoying for me
to hear. I was like listening to this and I was like, oh, my God.

558
00:42:07,103 --> 00:42:17,103
Our argument about the cooperative close looking like a normal transaction, like
anyone cares about that at all. And like that's remotely comparable to like the
privacy that Monero and ZK has.

559
00:42:18,103 --> 00:42:33,103
So first, I want to turn to people away. We have a situation where all these people
are interested. They're joined. They want to join a winning project. You have
network effects. So people are thinking, which project is going to be number one?
How can I join that project now? People want to buy something low.

560
00:42:34,103 --> 00:42:47,103
So you have a lot of great ingredients. You know, the developers are always like
coming up with stuff like for free. They just like to come up with stuff. You have a
huge PhD like world now. You didn't have that before. A lot of stuff has already
been built.

561
00:42:48,103 --> 00:43:00,103
Like the ZKash Orchard Crate, the stuff that already exists. It didn't even exist
before. It would have been impossible to do back in 2017 to say, oh, we're going to
do a privacy. You'd have to invent it all yourself.

562
00:43:01,103 --> 00:43:21,103
So that's a good start. And you have people who want to find diamond in the rough.
So people who want to join. Then, you know, you have to kind of try to build like a
kind of critical mass. You know, you have to do it in stages like the rocket, like
the starship.

563
00:43:22,103 --> 00:43:31,103
You have the booster and then you have the other. So you have to do it like, you
know, stage by stage by stage. But yeah, I don't know if we'll succeed. But yeah,
we're going to try. So first, you know.

564
00:43:32,103 --> 00:43:33,103
Go ahead. Continue.

565
00:43:34,103 --> 00:43:41,103
So like the first stage is like make sure the path is clear. And then the next stage
is like launch successfully.

566
00:43:42,103 --> 00:43:55,103
You want to have. So, you know, you want to make sure that. So for one thing that
we're doing is the transactions on the BTC side are being replayed in the ZKash
side.

567
00:43:56,103 --> 00:44:11,103
So you have like you're tying for the transactions also in addition to having the
same code. And they just try to staple in these other things that people want. You
have this that the sidechain ideas is kind of like a ratchet or a flywheel where
it's kind of like.

568
00:44:12,103 --> 00:44:27,103
If you if the thing is making more transaction fees for miners, then why not do it?
And so you have a situation where developers know what they should aim for. You
know, let's make a great L2 that people will actually pay a transaction fee to use.

569
00:44:28,103 --> 00:44:34,103
The user pays the fee, the miner collects the fee, and then everyone can go up
happily.

570
00:44:35,103 --> 00:44:46,103
It would not be possible to succeed if these other projects were not making huge
mistakes. So like if BTC were run competently, it would be impossible to compete
with it.

571
00:44:47,103 --> 00:44:56,103
But luckily for I suppose, I think it's really unlucky actually. I would prefer it
if we didn't have to do this, but it's being run in a terrible sense.

572
00:44:56,103 --> 00:45:16,103
We have all these ideas that could be great. They're being just chased out of town
and for no reason because they pose zero risk. They add a lot of benefit. And yeah,
you have weird political stuff going on in Bitcoin Core and in the culture.

573
00:45:17,103 --> 00:45:25,103
Do you foresee anybody that's like mining Bitcoin will now start mining?

574
00:45:26,103 --> 00:45:42,103
I see the miners as followers. So if the price is high, to create the fork, the
difficulty will be dropped down. So the miners will subtract. They'll say, what's
the market price? And then what's the cost?

575
00:45:42,103 --> 00:45:54,103
The market price times the coins per block. So basically you have the revenue of the
block and the cost of the block. That's a weird way of putting it, but every miner
will just subtract and then they'll mine.

576
00:45:55,103 --> 00:46:08,103
So when the difficulty is very low, they could mine lots and lots of blocks for
cheap. For like a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of their hash rate, they could mine
many blocks, small amount of electricity.

577
00:46:09,103 --> 00:46:25,103
So it doesn't matter as much that the blocks will be worth whatever it is, 1% of 1%
or even less, 1 10,000 or 100,000. The block will be worth a lot less, but the cost
will also be down.

578
00:46:25,103 --> 00:46:44,103
And if that number is a big gap, some people will mine. It will then be up to the
market to decide to some extent if the market price is very high or if it starts
going up, there'll be more mining. If the market price is very low, then they will
not be very much mining.

579
00:46:46,103 --> 00:46:49,103
Is there a way to have a merge mine with Bitcoin?

580
00:46:49,103 --> 00:47:09,103
There is, but I think it's all about the end game. And there's no reason for anyone
to go out on a limb for this project unless it can actually win. And if it's merge
mined, you won't be able to kill off BTC without killing this project also. So they
won't really be competitors.

581
00:47:10,103 --> 00:47:34,103
Do you know what I mean? You need a real competitor because it's a long shot, but
it's like what if you go into the casino and you go to roulette and you put it on
17. And then they have the casino as a policy that says, well every time you win by
hitting the number, the 35 to 1, you've got to give all the money back or you've got
to donate it to charity or something.

582
00:47:34,103 --> 00:47:54,103
Well, no one would even bother. So we need it to be a long shot that actually pays
off. So if it's merge mined, that would help it survive at first, but that would rob
it of the weapon it needs to kill BTC off in the end game.

583
00:47:54,103 --> 00:48:17,103
And that's because BTC has this very, very low transaction volume because no one's
using it. Partially because we run this huge campaign against the user and we say we
don't want any people using it. So this is like the hatred of ordinals, the hatred
of whatever, everything. So this is like everything we've done over the last 10
years is we're trying to drive the user away.

584
00:48:17,103 --> 00:48:42,103
So the transaction fee volume is very small. And in my conception of BTC plus all
these L2 merge mined chains, you have unlimited block size in the sense of adding
all the different chains together. So even though at each time there's a finite
block size, there's no actual, you can always add more, collect more fees.

585
00:48:43,103 --> 00:48:58,103
So the idea is that with this chain there would be something like geometric increase
in fees. So maybe it starts small, but it grows 10% every year because you just get
more and more users every year, which is the same way like Gmail and all this other
stuff would grow. You know, most normal things would grow that way.

586
00:48:58,103 --> 00:49:23,103
And as long as you pull that off, it just means in the end game, eventually the
transaction fee rate is growing by so much that even within a two week period, it
will grow much more. It would be many multiples of the entire BTC fee rate. And that
would suck all the miners over to this network and that would kill off the old BTC
network.

587
00:49:23,103 --> 00:49:42,103
But it can only do that if this network is really actually more popular. So that's
very unlikely, but it's possible. And I don't know what else to do. Honestly, the
question is, do we just like complain or do we just do nothing? Do we just cash out?
I know a lot of Bitcoiners would just cash out. So the question is, what else should
we do? Right? Just go all in on Monero, right? I suppose.

588
00:49:43,103 --> 00:49:45,103
Yeah, do that. Welcome aboard.

589
00:49:45,103 --> 00:50:01,103
Again, I respect completely the Monero software, the Monero idea, the Monero
culture, the Monero user base. You know, the fact that any people can survive.

590
00:50:29,630 --> 00:50:34,630
If you're going to go all in on something, you might as well be, you got to be in
the top five.

591
00:50:34,630 --> 00:50:43,630
Because despite its market cap compared to others, its utility is in the top five, I
would say, top three.

592
00:50:43,630 --> 00:50:44,630
I would agree with you there.

593
00:50:44,630 --> 00:50:45,630
Yeah.

594
00:50:45,630 --> 00:50:53,630
Because the real utility is who's actually paying the transaction fee, who's
actually using the network to actually transact. So I would completely agree with
you there.

595
00:50:53,630 --> 00:50:56,630
The stable coins are probably beating everyone.

596
00:50:56,630 --> 00:50:57,630
Right.

597
00:50:57,630 --> 00:51:05,630
But then near the top would be Monero. I would completely agree. It's certainly
beating, you know, I don't even know, Aptos or whatever, you know, whatever.

598
00:51:05,630 --> 00:51:06,630
Right.

599
00:51:06,630 --> 00:51:07,630
So no offense to that.

600
00:51:07,630 --> 00:51:09,630
What is your Zcash take?

601
00:51:10,630 --> 00:51:20,630
Well, OK, so here's the thing is when I made the Z, when I made the privacy L2, like
it could have been like Monero based or Zcash based.

602
00:51:20,630 --> 00:51:25,630
And I thought, well, Zcash was originally this fork of BTC, so it's like a little
easier.

603
00:51:25,630 --> 00:51:28,630
It was like Monero was like kind of like completely different from scratch.

604
00:51:28,630 --> 00:51:45,630
So the Monero, the community and the privacy in practice is clearly better because
you need something where, you know, you have a lot of like extra users that you're
mixed in, like the anonymity set, as they call it.

605
00:51:45,630 --> 00:52:04,630
And so that's really important. But the Z, it seemed to me like the Zcash altcoin
people were very serious about like heads down, doing like a bunch of PhD, like what
do you want to call it?

606
00:52:04,630 --> 00:52:09,630
Like, like research to make it so that the actual technology would be super, super
private.

607
00:52:10,630 --> 00:52:21,630
So Monero was like you only have the nine decoys. And then for Zcash, you had the
like you were in the same shielded pool as everyone else.

608
00:52:21,630 --> 00:52:32,630
So it seemed like it was more impressive. And then a lot of the problems with Zcash
were kind of like, you know, like the dev tax and all this weird stuff that you
could just like include.

609
00:52:32,630 --> 00:52:35,630
So that was easy to just like. So I thought that they were actually.

610
00:52:35,630 --> 00:52:40,630
Initially, they had the trusted setup. That was also a big. Right. No, no.

611
00:52:40,630 --> 00:52:42,630
They got rid of that eventually. But they got rid of that. Yeah.

612
00:52:45,630 --> 00:52:48,630
So yes. So then what is your overall.

613
00:52:49,630 --> 00:52:56,630
So how do you how do you compare, I guess, Zcash to Monero ultimately?

614
00:52:57,630 --> 00:53:02,630
Well, obviously, in practice, you would use Monero to actually do something with
that.

615
00:53:02,630 --> 00:53:13,630
But I still think the Zcash people were I mean, didn't they almost light the way to
some extent because Monero is now doing the whole chain proof idea or something.

616
00:53:13,630 --> 00:53:15,630
Full chain ownership proofs. Yep.

617
00:53:15,630 --> 00:53:29,630
And so that is, you know, an admission or I don't know if that's the right word, but
it's kind of like, yeah, the technology can keep improving, become more private and,
you know, more resource efficient and stuff like that.

618
00:53:30,630 --> 00:53:38,630
So, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think you guys are right to say that actually, you
know, the tech doesn't doesn't matter as much.

619
00:53:38,630 --> 00:53:41,630
We actually have this community of real people using Monero, which is growing.

620
00:53:41,630 --> 00:53:46,630
That's like what I was talking about. It's like, yeah, that can grow 10 percent each
year and everything else is splitting the vote.

621
00:53:47,630 --> 00:53:52,630
You know, so here's my new product. Here's my other new product. Oh, this is 15.

622
00:53:52,630 --> 00:53:59,630
Here's the new in 2027, the 15 new privacy products that all have 0.1 percent of the
privacy market.

623
00:53:59,630 --> 00:54:03,630
But then there's Monero that has like 48 percent and it just gets a little bit
bigger each year.

624
00:54:05,630 --> 00:54:13,630
Then it will win. I don't know if you have any other more specific question about
about either of the two.

625
00:54:13,630 --> 00:54:18,630
What do you think about the Zcash exploit that was found?

626
00:54:18,630 --> 00:54:22,630
See, it's fun. You've got to do it because you have, you know, you've got to show
and everything.

627
00:54:22,630 --> 00:54:26,630
But it's like everyone's just using this as an excuse to just dunk on them, which is
fine.

628
00:54:26,630 --> 00:54:29,630
No, I didn't really see it. I didn't really see it that way, to be honest.

629
00:54:29,630 --> 00:54:37,630
Because, you know, I think anybody could be susceptible to this, to what we're
seeing with AI, where you're finding flaws in people's code.

630
00:54:38,630 --> 00:54:46,630
I guess the main difference here is it's a flaw where it can't necessarily be proven
that it wasn't exploited already in the past.

631
00:54:46,630 --> 00:54:48,630
That's that's the issue.

632
00:54:48,630 --> 00:54:54,630
Well, OK, this word proof, you know, the word proof is doing a lot of work in that
sentence because there is some evidence that it was not,

633
00:54:54,630 --> 00:55:00,630
which is that no one dumped the Zcash like there's not like you think.

634
00:55:01,630 --> 00:55:04,630
Yeah, if someone found it, they would think it's only if I found this.

635
00:55:04,630 --> 00:55:06,630
It's only a matter of time before someone else finds it.

636
00:55:06,630 --> 00:55:10,630
Right. To be able to make secret shielded Zcash.

637
00:55:10,630 --> 00:55:19,630
So what am I going to do? Just sell like a hundred bucks every week for like a year
or am I just going to make a bunch and then just dump it all?

638
00:55:19,630 --> 00:55:21,630
You know, like so that didn't happen.

639
00:55:21,630 --> 00:55:26,630
So I think that is actually a pretty not it's not necessarily.

640
00:55:28,630 --> 00:55:31,630
Like conclusive or whatever you want to call it, it's not like an open and shut
case.

641
00:55:31,630 --> 00:55:35,630
But that does make it seem like it wasn't exploited.

642
00:55:35,630 --> 00:55:38,630
And also, but it was kind of like it was kind of hard to find.

643
00:55:38,630 --> 00:55:46,630
So they had like a world renowned type class of code auditor using the cutting edge
technology.

644
00:55:46,630 --> 00:55:49,630
And they found it and they exposed it.

645
00:55:49,630 --> 00:55:52,630
So, yeah, it's only a matter of time before I think a lot of us are going to find
that.

646
00:55:52,630 --> 00:55:55,630
Yeah, my reaction was, OK, let's run that.

647
00:55:55,630 --> 00:55:58,630
Let's run that AI against Monero's code base like right now.

648
00:55:58,630 --> 00:56:00,630
Judge not lest ye be judged, right?

649
00:56:00,630 --> 00:56:02,630
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

650
00:56:02,630 --> 00:56:06,630
Which Monero I heard, you know, people have been doing that.

651
00:56:06,630 --> 00:56:08,630
SecOne did that recently.

652
00:56:08,630 --> 00:56:11,630
I mean, I don't know to what level, but so so far a good sign.

653
00:56:11,630 --> 00:56:18,630
But yeah, so I think we share an opinion there in terms of reaction to it.

654
00:56:18,630 --> 00:56:26,630
So what other side chains will be launching with Zcash?

655
00:56:27,630 --> 00:56:30,630
Zside is like launching when you launch it?

656
00:56:30,630 --> 00:56:31,630
That's right.

657
00:56:31,630 --> 00:56:34,630
You can try it now with fake Signet coins.

658
00:56:34,630 --> 00:56:35,630
So try it out if you want.

659
00:56:35,630 --> 00:56:38,630
People want to check it out.

660
00:56:38,630 --> 00:56:41,630
So what other side chains will there be?

661
00:56:41,630 --> 00:56:45,630
We have one that's optimized just for transaction throughput.

662
00:56:45,630 --> 00:56:49,630
So it's kind of like a large block, like super fast.

663
00:56:49,630 --> 00:56:54,630
That's for just raw scaling, but no special privacy.

664
00:56:54,630 --> 00:56:59,630
That one's kind of like a Bitcoin Cash, Bitcoin SV type of a thing or whatever.

665
00:56:59,630 --> 00:57:01,630
What have you, you know?

666
00:57:01,630 --> 00:57:03,630
I have one based on Namecoin.

667
00:57:03,630 --> 00:57:09,630
I always thought Namecoin was this great idea, but Namecoin just kind of like also.

668
00:57:09,630 --> 00:57:13,630
Maybe you are. Maybe you are, Satoshi.

669
00:57:13,630 --> 00:57:16,630
Okay, Satoshi was a co-inventor of Namecoin.

670
00:57:17,630 --> 00:57:27,630
I used to tell this like Bitcoin Magazine had a policy on who was allowed to speak
at the big conference, like the Bitcoin Magazine conference.

671
00:57:27,630 --> 00:57:34,630
And I was like, technically, guys, your policy would clearly prohibit Satoshi
because he invented Namecoin.

672
00:57:34,630 --> 00:57:36,630
He was a shill for Namecoin.

673
00:57:36,630 --> 00:57:37,630
He invented merge mining.

674
00:57:37,630 --> 00:57:39,630
He did all this stuff.

675
00:57:39,630 --> 00:57:43,630
And so, yeah, this Namecoin idea is a really cool idea.

676
00:57:43,630 --> 00:57:54,630
And it's related to all these problems that we have that are adjacent to privacy,
like deplatforming and shadow banning that we were joking about.

677
00:57:54,630 --> 00:58:04,630
Like you own, to some extent, you own the name Monero Talk, but not really because,
you know, whatever.

678
00:58:04,630 --> 00:58:06,630
Elon could take it from you.

679
00:58:06,630 --> 00:58:13,630
So, of course, we have some competition among these different social media sites,
but then sometimes we have collude, massive collusion.

680
00:58:13,630 --> 00:58:22,630
And the idea that you could just own the name and you have this brand and that
people always have a way of reaching you.

681
00:58:22,630 --> 00:58:25,630
They always have a way of like downloading your Web page.

682
00:58:25,630 --> 00:58:34,630
There was a way of emailing you encrypted email or sending you money or getting your
BTC address, reusable Z address or whatever else the case may be.

683
00:58:34,630 --> 00:58:37,630
I think that's a pretty big game changer also.

684
00:58:37,630 --> 00:58:40,630
And I always thought that idea was totally underexplored.

685
00:58:40,630 --> 00:58:47,630
And it was so cool when you read about in 2010, all these the OG Bitcoiners who were
like hacking on Namecoin, like making this thing.

686
00:58:47,630 --> 00:58:52,630
It kind of didn't really go anywhere, even though it reappears from time to time.

687
00:58:52,630 --> 00:59:08,630
And like the Paynims from like they're so very close, not quite, but that was like a
reusable thing that was close, very close to like a Namecoin type of a thing.

688
00:59:08,630 --> 00:59:13,630
And then we had like the Ethereum ENS or whatever it was called.

689
00:59:13,630 --> 00:59:18,630
And then they had like the money button, Bitcoin SV or a cash tag or whatever this
was called.

690
00:59:18,630 --> 00:59:21,630
So people keep kind of like reinventing it slightly.

691
00:59:21,630 --> 00:59:23,630
And it's pretty cool.

692
00:59:23,630 --> 00:59:26,630
And I think, you know, that's pretty neat.

693
00:59:26,630 --> 00:59:30,630
And what makes you think it will succeed on eCash?

694
00:59:30,630 --> 00:59:32,630
Like what will be the differentiator there?

695
00:59:32,630 --> 00:59:35,630
I wrote an essay and then I about it's called Bit Names.

696
00:59:35,630 --> 00:59:37,630
And I explain all this.

697
00:59:37,630 --> 00:59:41,630
And then parts, I think part seven of the essay was more than five years old.

698
00:59:41,630 --> 00:59:45,630
But I say this is called how to take on ICANN and win.

699
00:59:46,630 --> 00:59:52,630
And there's ICANN is, of course, who does all the things, StreamYard.com or
Google.com, ICANN.

700
00:59:52,630 --> 00:59:54,630
They run this name thing.

701
00:59:54,630 --> 01:00:00,630
When you go on GoDaddy or whatever and you buy the domain name, you kind of buy it
from them.

702
01:00:00,630 --> 01:00:03,630
Speaking very loosely, skipping over a lot of details.

703
01:00:03,630 --> 01:00:06,630
But I have a plan.

704
01:00:06,630 --> 01:00:08,630
It has nothing to do with eCash.

705
01:00:08,630 --> 01:00:10,630
It has nothing to do – anyone could do this plan.

706
01:00:10,630 --> 01:00:11,630
I just think this is a great plan.

707
01:00:11,630 --> 01:00:12,630
Everyone should do it.

708
01:00:12,630 --> 01:00:22,630
It's basically you hard fork the ICANN database and you say, okay, the software will
resolve either thing, the two types of name either way.

709
01:00:22,630 --> 01:00:25,630
So if you have Google.com, that's the ICANN world.

710
01:00:25,630 --> 01:00:33,630
And then if you have Google.bit or Google.anarchy or something, it will be resolved
the cypherpunk way.

711
01:00:33,630 --> 01:00:35,630
But it will do either one.

712
01:00:35,630 --> 01:00:43,630
And I basically say there's like a system that is like constantly synchronizing the
ICANN stuff.

713
01:00:43,630 --> 01:00:46,630
Because the idea is to respect people's property rights.

714
01:00:46,630 --> 01:00:50,630
It's like these people bought Google.com.

715
01:00:50,630 --> 01:00:53,630
They're not going to want to switch to some new thing.

716
01:00:53,630 --> 01:00:54,630
They would hate that.

717
01:00:54,630 --> 01:00:56,630
They would have to buy Google.com again.

718
01:00:56,630 --> 01:00:58,630
That would never, ever work in a million years.

719
01:00:58,630 --> 01:01:00,630
They would never do that.

720
01:01:00,630 --> 01:01:09,630
So my idea is keep everyone's ICANN names the same permanently and also keep syncing
it across.

721
01:01:09,630 --> 01:01:17,630
But make it so that if you go to the BitNames server, the Namecoin server, it will
serve either one.

722
01:01:17,630 --> 01:01:20,630
And so now you've got everything you had before plus.

723
01:01:20,630 --> 01:01:21,630
You know what I mean?

724
01:01:21,630 --> 01:01:22,630
You've got this plus.

725
01:01:22,630 --> 01:01:27,630
And now once you're in this new world, why would you pay with the other domains?

726
01:01:27,630 --> 01:01:29,630
You've got to renew them every year.

727
01:01:29,630 --> 01:01:36,630
Not only do you have to buy them, but you've got to pay whatever, $7 a year to renew
them all.

728
01:01:36,630 --> 01:01:38,630
Before they had Let's Encrypt and all that stuff.

729
01:01:38,630 --> 01:01:40,630
People had to pay for SSL and all that stuff.

730
01:01:40,630 --> 01:01:42,630
People don't really do that anymore.

731
01:01:42,630 --> 01:01:43,630
But that was wild.

732
01:01:43,630 --> 01:01:46,630
You had to pay like $5 a month to have HTTPS or something.

733
01:01:46,630 --> 01:01:49,630
That was all crazy.

734
01:01:49,630 --> 01:01:55,630
And so the idea is once you're in the thing, once you have everything you had
before, now you can also have.

735
01:01:55,630 --> 01:01:59,630
So this is now a huge upgrade for, like, for example, the darknet markets.

736
01:01:59,630 --> 01:02:05,630
Because as you probably know, almost certainly know, the darknet markets have a big
phishing problem.

737
01:02:05,630 --> 01:02:09,630
Because it's just like this blah, blah, blah string of characters.

738
01:02:09,630 --> 01:02:13,630
And then they say send these coins.

739
01:02:13,630 --> 01:02:20,630
And so under my scheme, they could have whatever, Silkroad.Bit.

740
01:02:20,630 --> 01:02:23,630
And they'd own that, and then you'd be able to send money to that also.

741
01:02:23,630 --> 01:02:26,630
So you never get to send money to the wrong person.

742
01:02:26,630 --> 01:02:28,630
You send it to Silkroad.Bit.

743
01:02:28,630 --> 01:02:31,630
It goes to some address, but that's under the hood.

744
01:02:31,630 --> 01:02:37,630
So, yeah, it's a pretty big upgrade for the private world, the dark world.

745
01:02:37,630 --> 01:02:44,630
It's basically the same as when the internet switched from these IP addresses to
actual domain names.

746
01:02:44,630 --> 01:02:49,630
And obviously, for a regular person, that's a huge upgrade to the user experience.

747
01:02:49,630 --> 01:02:51,630
But it's more than just the user experience.

748
01:02:52,630 --> 01:02:53,630
People really get phished.

749
01:02:53,630 --> 01:02:58,630
You can watch videos of people trying to scam other people, which is sometimes very
entertaining.

750
01:02:58,630 --> 01:03:03,630
But then they say, yeah, send this money to me at Kraken.

751
01:03:03,630 --> 01:03:06,630
And you don't know.

752
01:03:06,630 --> 01:03:10,630
Like the Bitcoin address is some garbled character.

753
01:03:10,630 --> 01:03:12,630
The Monero address is some garbled character.

754
01:03:12,630 --> 01:03:19,630
But under this scheme, it would be like send it to Kraken.Bit or something or
Kraken.Coin or whatever.

755
01:03:19,630 --> 01:03:21,630
I guess that's an ICANN one now.

756
01:03:21,630 --> 01:03:25,630
So it would have to be something that's not an ICANN top-level domain.

757
01:03:25,630 --> 01:03:31,630
So now you could send messages.

758
01:03:31,630 --> 01:03:33,630
Like you could text or e-mail.

759
01:03:33,630 --> 01:03:34,630
It's the same thing, whatever.

760
01:03:34,630 --> 01:03:37,630
And you can then send money to the person.

761
01:03:37,630 --> 01:03:43,630
So this is a big upgrade as far as the phishing angle where people are replacing the
address.

762
01:03:43,630 --> 01:03:45,630
They're attacking your clipboard.

763
01:03:45,630 --> 01:03:46,630
They're doing all this crazy stuff.

764
01:03:46,630 --> 01:03:49,630
So I think that, you know, again, there's no guarantee.

765
01:03:49,630 --> 01:03:53,630
And I hate for this to be like the Paul's Wacky Ideas project.

766
01:03:53,630 --> 01:03:55,630
That's really not what I'm trying to do.

767
01:03:55,630 --> 01:04:00,630
I think the scaling and the Z side, I'm hoping that's like the bread and butter.

768
01:04:00,630 --> 01:04:03,630
But then, you know, I also have all these other things.

769
01:04:03,630 --> 01:04:08,630
And, again, it's not even like it's really my idea because, of course, Namecoin was
other people's idea.

770
01:04:08,630 --> 01:04:12,630
And I'm just saying, like, let's tune this up and let's send it out.

771
01:04:13,630 --> 01:04:18,630
So it's going to have the scaling coin, Namecoin, Z side.

772
01:04:18,630 --> 01:04:19,630
What else?

773
01:04:19,630 --> 01:04:21,630
The problem with Namecoin was it was an altcoin.

774
01:04:21,630 --> 01:04:22,630
And so people didn't know what to make of it.

775
01:04:22,630 --> 01:04:24,630
They're like, I have to buy this other coin.

776
01:04:24,630 --> 01:04:26,630
Are there going to be like a million other coins?

777
01:04:26,630 --> 01:04:28,630
So this is the origin of maximalism in a way.

778
01:04:28,630 --> 01:04:31,630
It was like kind of like, oh, this would be worth it.

779
01:04:31,630 --> 01:04:32,630
I have some others.

780
01:04:32,630 --> 01:04:36,630
I have one thing that I was famous for a long time ago, even before sidechains.

781
01:04:36,630 --> 01:04:38,630
I have a big interest in prediction markets.

782
01:04:38,630 --> 01:04:42,630
So I was the original person saying we should put these prediction markets on
Bitcoin.

783
01:04:42,630 --> 01:04:44,630
I was saying that back in 2013 and 2012.

784
01:04:44,630 --> 01:04:45,630
Really?

785
01:04:45,630 --> 01:04:48,630
And so I was a huge proponent of this idea.

786
01:04:48,630 --> 01:04:50,630
And you can read all about it.

787
01:04:50,630 --> 01:04:55,630
So I had this idea for bringing them to Bitcoin where I think I'm like a top expert
in the world.

788
01:04:55,630 --> 01:04:59,630
Like, so I was really, really and even I was back in 2012.

789
01:04:59,630 --> 01:05:06,630
So the whole time I've been, you know, we've kind of been like the prediction
markets of making some headway, including in the last two years.

790
01:05:06,630 --> 01:05:12,630
I've been going way up in notoriety and kind of recognizability.

791
01:05:12,630 --> 01:05:15,630
So I have that project as well.

792
01:05:15,630 --> 01:05:21,630
And then I have another one that's basically like it's kind of like in my head.

793
01:05:21,630 --> 01:05:23,630
It's kind of like a tether, like a stable coin.

794
01:05:23,630 --> 01:05:25,630
But really, you can do any assets.

795
01:05:25,630 --> 01:05:28,630
You could do any kind of NFT, ordinal, whatever thing.

796
01:05:28,630 --> 01:05:29,630
So I call it BitAssets.

797
01:05:29,630 --> 01:05:35,630
But really, it would be for the stable coins because if you can't get that sweet,
sweet stable.

798
01:05:35,630 --> 01:05:40,630
How about like the programmability, like something that's programmable?

799
01:05:40,630 --> 01:05:46,630
We had something called EthSide, which was Ethereum gas, but as a side chain.

800
01:05:46,630 --> 01:05:49,630
But I personally lost interest in it.

801
01:05:49,630 --> 01:05:54,630
And I just I don't find it that interesting because what do people actually do with
the programmability?

802
01:05:54,630 --> 01:05:58,630
They do, you know, basically tether stable coins.

803
01:05:58,630 --> 01:06:00,630
They do the Ethereum name system.

804
01:06:00,630 --> 01:06:02,630
They do the stuff that I was already actually interested in.

805
01:06:02,630 --> 01:06:04,630
So I personally wasn't that interested.

806
01:06:04,630 --> 01:06:08,630
But I'm sure that someone will bring that back because you got to have that EVM.

807
01:06:08,630 --> 01:06:10,630
Everyone loves the EVM, except for me.

808
01:06:10,630 --> 01:06:12,630
So I think.

809
01:06:12,630 --> 01:06:15,630
Everybody loves the EVM.

810
01:06:15,630 --> 01:06:18,630
Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah.

811
01:06:18,630 --> 01:06:21,630
You can have Trump coin on there as a side chain.

812
01:06:21,630 --> 01:06:25,630
Well, OK. To that point, there was Trump coin and Melania coin.

813
01:06:25,630 --> 01:06:31,630
Those were Solana Pump.Fun meme coins.

814
01:06:31,630 --> 01:06:37,630
This whole meme coin idea that was originally, you know, the Bitcoin.

815
01:06:37,630 --> 01:06:41,630
You know, so like Tether was is Omni, but that was originally MasterCoin.

816
01:06:41,630 --> 01:06:43,630
So all this stuff was originally people thought about.

817
01:06:43,630 --> 01:06:49,630
This is the tragedy is that the Bitcoin is always super early.

818
01:06:49,630 --> 01:06:52,630
So people are thinking, oh, how can you put stocks and bonds?

819
01:06:52,630 --> 01:06:57,630
I can put collectibles. I can put like concert tickets on the blockchain.

820
01:06:57,630 --> 01:07:02,630
And it was kind of like the technology wasn't there for that.

821
01:07:02,630 --> 01:07:07,630
But what happened was, you know, the technology eventually got there

822
01:07:07,630 --> 01:07:10,630
and then you couldn't do it on BTC, mostly for cultural reasons.

823
01:07:10,630 --> 01:07:14,630
You notice when people finally do do it on BTC, they get run out of town.

824
01:07:14,630 --> 01:07:19,630
The ordinals people. But they're also like this is the most culturally interesting.

825
01:07:19,630 --> 01:07:23,630
The ordinals was like, you know, they had a lot of users and they had a lot of

826
01:07:23,630 --> 01:07:29,630
like podcasts and like debates and like stage presence on like the conferences.

827
01:07:29,630 --> 01:07:32,630
That was like a thing that people actually talked about.

828
01:07:32,630 --> 01:07:35,630
And then the people actually started using the BTC blockchain.

829
01:07:35,630 --> 01:07:40,630
You know, it caused fee rates on L1 to go up just a tiny smidge.

830
01:07:40,630 --> 01:07:44,630
This immediately bricked all that lightning stuff because it's all a bunch of junk.

831
01:07:44,630 --> 01:07:48,630
And actually, so it only works when you don't use it and you look at it too
carefully.

832
01:07:48,630 --> 01:07:51,630
You know, it's like a Wizard of Oz. He's like behind the curtain.

833
01:07:51,630 --> 01:07:54,630
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

834
01:07:54,630 --> 01:08:00,630
So. These were all things where, you know, these were like real.

835
01:08:00,630 --> 01:08:03,630
It's kind of like in one sense, it's like the Paul Swartz wacky ideas project.

836
01:08:03,630 --> 01:08:08,630
But in other sense, it's like the obvious things that are not even invented by me,

837
01:08:08,630 --> 01:08:11,630
that everyone it's already like been like market tested.

838
01:08:11,630 --> 01:08:15,630
Like people are like willing to fight and die for ordinals on BTC.

839
01:08:15,630 --> 01:08:18,630
And they're willing to pay these transaction fees and they're willing to pay.

840
01:08:18,630 --> 01:08:21,630
They paid 13 Bitcoin for the Epic Sat ordinal.

841
01:08:21,630 --> 01:08:26,630
So one Satoshi, it will pay 13.1 Bitcoin to buy a BTC for something.

842
01:08:26,630 --> 01:08:31,630
So on another hand, the other way of looking at is it sounds really bizarre to me

843
01:08:31,630 --> 01:08:36,630
because I feel like this all this stuff is being like it's like written in a neon
sign.

844
01:08:36,630 --> 01:08:39,630
You know, it's like saying people really like all this stuff.

845
01:08:39,630 --> 01:08:44,630
Obviously, they love. So just because of the Trump joke, you know,

846
01:08:44,630 --> 01:08:50,630
why isn't the Trump coin, you know, ridiculous, though it is.

847
01:08:50,630 --> 01:08:53,630
Why isn't it on BTC and why is it on Solana?

848
01:08:53,630 --> 01:08:58,630
You know, why is this harder not to go too far off track?

849
01:08:58,630 --> 01:09:01,630
Do you have any insight into like BitTensor?

850
01:09:01,630 --> 01:09:05,630
Curious, like, would you write obviously AI, right?

851
01:09:05,630 --> 01:09:09,630
Decentralized AI is one of these kind of big ideas right now in crypto.

852
01:09:09,630 --> 01:09:12,630
Is that something that could potentially be a side chain?

853
01:09:12,630 --> 01:09:15,630
I don't know that much about it, but I'm also certain of this.

854
01:09:15,630 --> 01:09:19,630
I think if I'm right, I have no idea if I am or not.

855
01:09:19,630 --> 01:09:22,630
Of course, anyone could be wrong about anything, including me.

856
01:09:22,630 --> 01:09:27,630
But if I'm right, then this is probably all the tip of the iceberg.

857
01:09:27,630 --> 01:09:31,630
Like all this stuff about bit names and stuff, you know, stuff that's like 15 years
old.

858
01:09:31,630 --> 01:09:34,630
And you finally it was, you know, trying to come alive.

859
01:09:34,630 --> 01:09:38,630
And you just give it a tiny little bit of tiny little bit of, you know,

860
01:09:38,630 --> 01:09:40,630
you just give it a little bit and it creates this.

861
01:09:40,630 --> 01:09:44,630
So there's probably a bunch of stuff that would be on the cutting edge now.

862
01:09:44,630 --> 01:09:48,630
Because I remember when I was first getting into Bitcoin and I was talking about
prediction markets and stuff.

863
01:09:48,630 --> 01:09:52,630
And I would like write to all these people who were like very prestigious at the
time.

864
01:09:52,630 --> 01:09:56,630
And they would be kind of like, yeah, like you could tell they didn't really
understand it.

865
01:09:56,630 --> 01:09:59,630
And I was that was kind of a little discouraging and not that discouraging.

866
01:09:59,630 --> 01:10:04,630
But it was like a little bit like, oh, these are these top minds in Bitcoin.

867
01:10:04,630 --> 01:10:09,630
Just because they have this this topic that's a little weird, they don't like know
anything about it at all.

868
01:10:09,630 --> 01:10:13,630
So they're not like as excited about it.

869
01:10:13,630 --> 01:10:22,630
Probably there's like a hundred of those out now where someone out there is really
they've been really into their thing for like since they were 12.

870
01:10:22,630 --> 01:10:25,630
And they've been working on it since they were 22.

871
01:10:25,630 --> 01:10:27,630
They've been working on it for 10 years.

872
01:10:27,630 --> 01:10:30,630
And it's so alien.

873
01:10:30,630 --> 01:10:35,630
That someone like me who's I'm stuck in the past because I'm talking about bit
names.

874
01:10:35,630 --> 01:10:37,630
I'm talking about Namecoin from 15 years ago.

875
01:10:37,630 --> 01:10:40,630
So I think there is a tip of the iceberg issue.

876
01:10:40,630 --> 01:10:45,630
And the problem with innovation is like you don't know what counts as an innovation.

877
01:10:45,630 --> 01:10:47,630
It's inherently unpredictable.

878
01:10:47,630 --> 01:10:49,630
You can't predict what will be an innovation.

879
01:10:49,630 --> 01:10:50,630
You know what I mean.

880
01:10:50,630 --> 01:10:56,630
Like if you go back 10,000 years and you say, you know what, in 1400 years someone's
going to invent the wheel.

881
01:10:56,630 --> 01:10:58,630
Like it doesn't make any sense.

882
01:10:58,630 --> 01:10:59,630
You just invented today.

883
01:10:59,630 --> 01:11:01,630
So it can't be predicted.

884
01:11:01,630 --> 01:11:06,630
And that's a huge mistake we're making in BTC is we're just saying, well, it's
already perfect and whatever.

885
01:11:06,630 --> 01:11:09,630
So that's why I think we're doomed in BTC.

886
01:11:09,630 --> 01:11:11,630
When is it going to launch?

887
01:11:11,630 --> 01:11:13,630
In late August.

888
01:11:13,630 --> 01:11:14,630
Oh, wow.

889
01:11:14,630 --> 01:11:15,630
That's soon.

890
01:11:15,630 --> 01:11:16,630
Okay.

891
01:11:16,630 --> 01:11:22,630
And so when it does launch like as a user, what would my experience be?

892
01:11:22,630 --> 01:11:26,630
Let's say I want to like from day one I'm like I want to forget Zcash.

893
01:11:26,630 --> 01:11:28,630
I want to use now Zside.

894
01:11:28,630 --> 01:11:31,630
That's going to be my new way to transact privately.

895
01:11:31,630 --> 01:11:34,630
What would that look like for a user?

896
01:11:35,630 --> 01:11:39,630
Well, with these L2s, you know, you can onboard people directly to the L2.

897
01:11:39,630 --> 01:11:43,630
So it's kind of the same as using the altcoin.

898
01:11:43,630 --> 01:11:44,630
It depends.

899
01:11:44,630 --> 01:11:56,630
If your question is like, okay, they have some L1 BTC that is copied into eCash on
the day of the split, then they could deposit it to the Zside by just like pressing
a button and making a transaction.

900
01:11:56,630 --> 01:12:06,630
But the cool thing about these L2s is that, you know, they're basically like
altcoins in the sense that they're different pieces of software and you could just
send people to them even if they have no account.

901
01:12:06,630 --> 01:12:10,630
They could have no zero coins on L1.

902
01:12:10,630 --> 01:12:15,630
And you can just say, oh, you can just, you know, you can buy some from a friend or
you can acquire them.

903
01:12:15,630 --> 01:12:18,630
However, you would have acquired the Zcash altcoin.

904
01:12:18,630 --> 01:12:21,630
You could just acquire the Zside.

905
01:12:21,630 --> 01:12:26,630
This would be whatever eCash as L2 of eCash L1.

906
01:12:26,630 --> 01:12:29,630
You're going to need to get wallets and stuff to adopt these things, right?

907
01:12:29,630 --> 01:12:30,630
That's right.

908
01:12:30,630 --> 01:12:33,630
So what does that look like on day one?

909
01:12:33,630 --> 01:12:38,630
Well, we have our own wallets that we have already.

910
01:12:38,630 --> 01:12:39,630
So we have desktop wallets.

911
01:12:39,630 --> 01:12:42,630
We also have a mobile wallet that I think we're going to improve enormously.

912
01:12:42,630 --> 01:12:45,630
But we have like a skeleton of one.

913
01:12:45,630 --> 01:12:48,630
And I think, you know, there's plenty of time between now and August for that.

914
01:12:48,630 --> 01:12:55,630
Obviously, we're focused first on the core node infrastructure like the backend and
stuff like that.

915
01:12:55,630 --> 01:13:00,630
But I'd like to stress that the L1 is the same as Bitcoin Core.

916
01:13:00,630 --> 01:13:03,630
So we have like the BDK wallet that like everyone uses for that.

917
01:13:03,630 --> 01:13:13,630
So if all you want to do is send and receive the L1 coins, which I'm sure a lot of
people will be doing initially, you know, that's just the same as it is in Bitcoin
Core.

918
01:13:13,630 --> 01:13:18,630
There's a million people have implemented Bitcoin wallets, including us.

919
01:13:18,630 --> 01:13:23,630
But that is not a difficult integration.

920
01:13:23,630 --> 01:13:24,630
And then we also have wallets.

921
01:13:24,630 --> 01:13:29,630
You know, every node, when you do a full node, it sort of has to contain a wallet.

922
01:13:29,630 --> 01:13:31,630
Otherwise, you can't test it or do anything with it.

923
01:13:31,630 --> 01:13:34,630
So we have those.

924
01:13:34,630 --> 01:13:43,630
And then I just think it will be we will also have like way of I don't want to like
go into too much, but we'll be like building a lot of stuff.

925
01:13:43,630 --> 01:13:46,630
But you can look at what we already have.

926
01:13:46,630 --> 01:13:53,630
You know, if you go to layer2labs.com, download or whatever, you can try out the
software.

927
01:13:53,630 --> 01:13:55,630
So, yeah, we will have all this stuff out.

928
01:13:55,630 --> 01:13:57,630
And then I think you're all be open source.

929
01:13:57,630 --> 01:14:01,630
You have that open source wallet because otherwise it was just steel.

930
01:14:01,630 --> 01:14:09,630
So I think, you know, in the age of we are talking to some people about having
integrated in their wallet.

931
01:14:09,630 --> 01:14:14,630
I think we will do that so that all that's coming.

932
01:14:14,630 --> 01:14:16,630
But I really think it won't be a huge issue.

933
01:14:16,630 --> 01:14:22,630
You know what I mean? Like either there'll be like no demand and there'll be a moot
point or there'll be some demand.

934
01:14:22,630 --> 01:14:24,630
And then it's the question of what does it cost?

935
01:14:24,630 --> 01:14:27,630
Since these are very similar to Bitcoin.

936
01:14:27,630 --> 01:14:29,630
These are proof of work.

937
01:14:29,630 --> 01:14:34,630
You know, I don't think it'll be really that difficult at all.

938
01:14:34,630 --> 01:14:37,630
Yeah, I'm just trying to think, you know, from right.

939
01:14:37,630 --> 01:14:40,630
It's you're basically starting from zero in a lot of ways.

940
01:14:40,630 --> 01:14:41,630
I get that. I get that. You're right.

941
01:14:41,630 --> 01:14:48,630
Now you're forking off a Bitcoin and it's an exact essentially exact replica on the
layer one.

942
01:14:48,630 --> 01:14:55,630
But, yeah, I'm just think usability in terms of, you know, getting people to
actually use this and integrate it into existing wallets.

943
01:14:56,630 --> 01:15:02,630
And, you know, using Z side in a way that you can currently use Monero or Z cash.

944
01:15:02,630 --> 01:15:03,630
Right.

945
01:15:04,161 --> 01:15:13,161
Yeah, we have like a front end for Z side and it has this thing melt cast that I so
it's like easy to like shield the coins and stuff.

946
01:15:13,441 --> 01:15:16,241
But, yeah, all that stuff is will be hard.

947
01:15:16,281 --> 01:15:22,721
But, again, I don't see it as you're right to point out how big of a task it is to
start from zero.

948
01:15:23,521 --> 01:15:30,561
No, the way I see it, though, is like it's kind of like you're going up a ladder.

949
01:15:30,961 --> 01:15:37,561
Like everyone's going up a ladder and then you have to get to the top of the you
know, you're trying to get up to like, I don't know, the side of a mountain or
something.

950
01:15:38,361 --> 01:15:41,201
And some of the ladders don't go all the way to the top.

951
01:15:42,721 --> 01:15:45,601
So do you the way it's blocked?

952
01:15:45,721 --> 01:15:46,721
That's the way I see it.

953
01:15:47,281 --> 01:15:50,681
I wouldn't do this if I like I wouldn't prefer to do this.

954
01:15:50,961 --> 01:15:55,601
I was trying to get I was trying to basically I was saying the BTC ladder is almost
at the top.

955
01:15:55,601 --> 01:15:58,161
We just need to like do this one little thing.

956
01:15:58,481 --> 01:16:03,161
But at the top, there's this big quarrel and everyone's saying stuff like we never
want to shoot shoots in ladders.

957
01:16:05,361 --> 01:16:07,161
People are saying we never wanted to reach the top.

958
01:16:07,161 --> 01:16:09,281
And what about the what about the ladder?

959
01:16:09,321 --> 01:16:10,881
We've lived on the ladder our whole lives.

960
01:16:10,961 --> 01:16:14,521
They've like they've become accustomed to just being only store value.

961
01:16:15,561 --> 01:16:19,041
They forgot that the mission was always to like get all three eventually.

962
01:16:19,481 --> 01:16:21,441
And it does become a Ponzi scheme.

963
01:16:21,841 --> 01:16:29,041
If so, that's the idea is that this ladder does the Bitcoin ladder doesn't go all
the way to the top and maybe the Monero one doesn't either.

964
01:16:29,121 --> 01:16:31,881
If it does, I just I would like someone to get to the top.

965
01:16:32,121 --> 01:16:39,121
So rather than all of us fail, because it's going to be pretty humiliating for all
of us to get into this industry if we all fail.

966
01:16:39,121 --> 01:16:42,761
Right. And it all just becomes WeChat pay or whatever at the end or whatever it is.

967
01:16:42,761 --> 01:16:49,081
Because here's the other thing about network effects is the US dollar has also been
crushing everyone in its path.

968
01:16:49,481 --> 01:17:02,001
And even as of like 10 years ago, if you looked up like what for every Forex
transaction, foreign exchange transaction, how many of them was the US dollar one of
the two legs of the trade?

969
01:17:02,041 --> 01:17:04,401
This was like 84 percent or something back then.

970
01:17:04,761 --> 01:17:14,321
And still you have like, you know, you have basically like I don't think even that
even the big one.

971
01:17:14,361 --> 01:17:24,561
So you could say something, you could talk about how Zimbabwe obliterated their
currency or you could talk about how certain like Central American countries flirted
with epic disaster, Bolivia or something almost.

972
01:17:25,401 --> 01:17:29,241
But but then think about all this to think about what's going to happen to Russia's
currency.

973
01:17:30,361 --> 01:17:31,921
That's what's going to happen to the euro.

974
01:17:31,961 --> 01:17:37,961
You know, even that good, the healthy ones are on death's door, I think, actually.

975
01:17:38,361 --> 01:17:44,681
And the Japanese, Japanese are in a demographic death, so are the Chinese.

976
01:17:45,401 --> 01:17:48,041
And then it's kind of like, you know, what's going on in Brazil?

977
01:17:48,041 --> 01:17:52,561
I don't know. And I had another example, but I forgot it.

978
01:17:52,561 --> 01:17:54,681
But the point is, they're all pretty bad, honestly.

979
01:17:54,721 --> 01:17:58,121
Right. Like what's what other than the US dollar?

980
01:17:58,161 --> 01:18:03,081
So the US dollar is is crushing everything in its path.

981
01:18:03,641 --> 01:18:06,361
And it will continue to grow.

982
01:18:06,361 --> 01:18:08,841
I mean, think about this, this fact that we have stable coins.

983
01:18:10,601 --> 01:18:14,321
The stable coins are, you know, they're basically not, you know, they're mostly in
US dollars.

984
01:18:14,321 --> 01:18:16,681
They're mostly not like, you know, they're not in.

985
01:18:16,721 --> 01:18:18,921
Yeah, they're bigger than anything else.

986
01:18:20,401 --> 01:18:22,521
And even there is this idea of the euro dollar.

987
01:18:22,841 --> 01:18:26,761
This is a bizarre point that I don't know if a lot of people are familiar with this,
but there is this like.

988
01:18:27,761 --> 01:18:38,321
It's hard, kind of hard to describe, but it's basically like this is like banks that
are not in the United States, in Europe, but they have actual dollars and it turns
out they're like, this is really hard.

989
01:18:38,321 --> 01:18:39,881
I'm going to get angry comments about this.

990
01:18:39,881 --> 01:18:44,521
I explain this, but basically they're like in this shadow banking world where
they're not regulated.

991
01:18:45,121 --> 01:18:48,201
So these things, the euro dollar is like a super dollar.

992
01:18:48,201 --> 01:18:50,921
In fact, it would sound like a worse version of the dollar, maybe.

993
01:18:51,081 --> 01:18:58,281
But it was like, yeah, because if you're in Switzerland or if you're in France, why
would the US law apply to you?

994
01:18:59,081 --> 01:19:01,761
And then it's like, OK, so then these became like kind of like super.

995
01:19:02,001 --> 01:19:04,521
So the dollar is crushing everything.

996
01:19:04,801 --> 01:19:10,361
So if we do nothing, then the dollar will continue to grow, I think, because
everything has network effects.

997
01:19:10,361 --> 01:19:16,041
So I think that, of course, all these fiat currencies are committing suicide also.

998
01:19:16,041 --> 01:19:16,841
And there's no plan.

999
01:19:17,801 --> 01:19:28,841
The most bullish thing for crypto is that Elon tried to cut two trillion from the,
this is a campaign promise, and it didn't come close.

1000
01:19:28,841 --> 01:19:29,841
They had to quit Doge.

1001
01:19:30,001 --> 01:19:37,321
So that's by far the most bullish news for crypto, I think, that the US dollar is
also beyond saving.

1002
01:19:38,801 --> 01:19:41,841
So real big picture here.

1003
01:19:41,841 --> 01:19:44,681
I mean, where do you, how many years?

1004
01:19:44,681 --> 01:19:45,561
Where do you see?

1005
01:19:45,801 --> 01:19:47,641
What's kind of your time horizon?

1006
01:19:47,641 --> 01:19:48,401
It's a good question.

1007
01:19:48,401 --> 01:19:56,401
I think it's like you get two years, you have like one year, maybe two years to like
really break it out, because otherwise the question would be why not just start over
again?

1008
01:19:57,441 --> 01:19:59,761
I don't know what to do if it doesn't work.

1009
01:20:00,401 --> 01:20:03,281
If it doesn't work, I might think maybe we should just hard fork again.

1010
01:20:03,721 --> 01:20:08,721
But I might also think maybe we should just quit because this is the ceiling for
crypto.

1011
01:20:08,761 --> 01:20:13,121
You know, like it's, it changed the world.

1012
01:20:13,161 --> 01:20:16,321
It's worth two trillion or maybe it'll be worth 10 trillion.

1013
01:20:18,081 --> 01:20:26,081
But it won't like, it'll just be some, you know, it'll be like paying with cash
where people are kind of thinking, oh, he's probably not declaring all that.

1014
01:20:26,561 --> 01:20:31,441
Like when I pay for like, you know, whatever, a dry cleaning, I hate to throw my dry
cleaning guy under the bus.

1015
01:20:31,481 --> 01:20:39,121
It's always you're thinking like, you're like, okay, like something's weird, but
whatever, you know, who cares?

1016
01:20:39,161 --> 01:20:42,001
Because of course, we got to support private cash and privacy.

1017
01:20:43,121 --> 01:20:49,241
But yeah, you're kind of thinking like, whatever, you know, something's happening,
but I don't care enough to think about it.

1018
01:20:49,241 --> 01:20:51,481
So it's all right.

1019
01:20:51,481 --> 01:20:52,001
You know what I mean?

1020
01:20:52,001 --> 01:20:56,081
Like, so yeah, like, if so, that might mean that we can't.

1021
01:20:56,921 --> 01:21:03,561
Because, but I think it's encouraging for me, for anyone to challenge BTC.

1022
01:21:04,161 --> 01:21:09,401
One of the big problems with Bitcoin Cash was that it was a very feeble competitor
to BTC.

1023
01:21:09,601 --> 01:21:16,801
So it enabled BTC sucking more, hugely, I think.

1024
01:21:17,321 --> 01:21:18,761
And I was really disappointed.

1025
01:21:19,401 --> 01:21:25,281
You know, it's kind of like, you know, usually have like, like in a Dragon Ball Z,
you've got, you got Goku versus Vegeta.

1026
01:21:26,481 --> 01:21:29,201
But it doesn't work if Vegeta is like super, super weak.

1027
01:21:29,201 --> 01:21:31,081
And then it's like, doesn't really work.

1028
01:21:31,081 --> 01:21:32,921
It's not like Goku versus Krillin, you know.

1029
01:21:33,961 --> 01:21:36,641
So it's it just sucks.

1030
01:21:36,641 --> 01:21:41,761
And, you know, and I hate to say this about the, you know, Bitcoin Cash people,
because I know they tried, they put their heart into it.

1031
01:21:43,241 --> 01:21:47,081
But yeah, they had all kinds of implement, they had bad ideas and bad
implementation.

1032
01:21:47,081 --> 01:21:48,801
And I hate to say it.

1033
01:21:49,641 --> 01:21:56,081
So it'd be great if Monero rises the leaderboard and has total dominance over the
Darknet market.

1034
01:21:57,561 --> 01:21:58,601
I think that'd be a good thing.

1035
01:21:58,641 --> 01:22:00,441
And I think it's better if we don't split the vote.

1036
01:22:00,481 --> 01:22:08,321
Of course, my idea for not splitting the vote, because this is what everyone says,
oh, if I talk to the Bitcoin Cash people, they're going to say, hey, why don't you
go all in on Bitcoin Cash?

1037
01:22:08,361 --> 01:22:09,681
Forget those Monero people, right?

1038
01:22:10,361 --> 01:22:16,241
Everyone says, you know, just come over here to whatever, Solana.

1039
01:22:17,161 --> 01:22:20,401
So but the sidechain idea is a different thing.

1040
01:22:20,401 --> 01:22:26,481
It says everyone can get their tech, you can have, you can tie, you can get
everyone's tech.

1041
01:22:28,721 --> 01:22:34,321
And so then the question, again, it's about the ladder, the rungs of the ladder.

1042
01:22:34,321 --> 01:22:36,801
It says, OK, this ladder, this ladder reaches the top.

1043
01:22:36,841 --> 01:22:40,881
So the question is, do you want to go all the way down, climb all the way back up?

1044
01:22:41,961 --> 01:22:43,641
You're going to look like an idiot at first.

1045
01:22:43,881 --> 01:22:47,881
But maybe you'll look like a genius in the end.

1046
01:22:47,881 --> 01:22:48,401
I don't know.

1047
01:22:50,801 --> 01:22:52,521
That's kind of been my life with Monero.

1048
01:22:55,161 --> 01:22:58,281
I've just told these things with the delay, and it's all marshmallow, right?

1049
01:22:58,761 --> 01:23:01,161
I'm pretty sure the Monero ladder keeps going up.

1050
01:23:01,161 --> 01:23:02,241
I don't know. We'll see, though.

1051
01:23:03,881 --> 01:23:04,641
OK, there's a problem.

1052
01:23:04,641 --> 01:23:08,201
I have one problem with Monero is the hard fork every six months.

1053
01:23:08,841 --> 01:23:10,281
I think that's...

1054
01:23:10,481 --> 01:23:14,361
Well, it's not every six months anymore, but yeah, it's still forks.

1055
01:23:14,561 --> 01:23:23,201
I mean, the next, the full chain membership proof fork will probably be, you know,
it's not going to be the last fork, obviously.

1056
01:23:23,201 --> 01:23:24,801
But there won't be another one for quite some time.

1057
01:23:24,801 --> 01:23:28,521
Because you get a lot of advantages for doing that, which I think is fine.

1058
01:23:29,481 --> 01:23:33,881
But the disadvantage is everyone needs to know where to get the next future version.

1059
01:23:34,801 --> 01:23:36,921
It means that there's basically an admin key.

1060
01:23:38,521 --> 01:23:42,921
They can overwrite everything because they're going to publish the new version and
you have to switch to it.

1061
01:23:42,921 --> 01:23:48,281
Yeah, Monero was forking a lot when it was trying to be ASIC resistant by way of
just forking.

1062
01:23:48,281 --> 01:23:49,881
That's also a big mistake.

1063
01:23:49,881 --> 01:23:50,401
Yeah, it's a big mistake.

1064
01:23:50,401 --> 01:23:54,121
Yeah, but you know, it's definitely moved on from that with RandomX.

1065
01:23:54,121 --> 01:23:57,441
And now it's had RandomX for many years and it hasn't had a fork.

1066
01:23:57,441 --> 01:23:58,241
Let's have the ASICs.

1067
01:23:58,241 --> 01:24:03,161
In fact, you know what you should do, just to blow everyone's mind, is you should
just make a shot to 56.

1068
01:24:06,201 --> 01:24:07,161
That would help you.

1069
01:24:09,161 --> 01:24:13,161
Yeah, I don't think the Bitcoin community is going to go for that.

1070
01:24:16,601 --> 01:24:19,481
I mean, even just for the fact that it's different than Bitcoin.

1071
01:24:19,481 --> 01:24:27,881
The fact that we have an ASIC resistant project that's relying on ASICs and a
project that's relying on CPUs.

1072
01:24:27,881 --> 01:24:28,881
You don't think there's any...

1073
01:24:29,641 --> 01:24:32,081
I mean, the CPU is basically the ASIC of Monero.

1074
01:24:34,681 --> 01:24:36,761
I don't think it helps either way.

1075
01:24:38,201 --> 01:24:44,201
The better thing is to focus on the users, which Monero has done almost uniquely.

1076
01:24:45,001 --> 01:24:48,041
And Litecoin also, at least they care about transaction.

1077
01:24:48,041 --> 01:24:50,361
They care about real numbers, like real scientists.

1078
01:24:50,361 --> 01:24:52,921
They have a clipboard with real criteria.

1079
01:24:52,921 --> 01:24:54,441
So you guys are like real.

1080
01:24:54,441 --> 01:24:57,641
And then, you know, God only knows what some of these other projects are.

1081
01:24:57,641 --> 01:25:01,481
These are like, you know, a flash in the pan and we'll never see them again.

1082
01:25:03,401 --> 01:25:07,881
Whatever happened to, you know, I don't know, BitShares or all that stuff.

1083
01:25:07,881 --> 01:25:11,321
Whatever happened to NXT, you know, whatever happened to all these coins.

1084
01:25:11,321 --> 01:25:13,481
Actually, let me ask you, the name, eCash.

1085
01:25:13,481 --> 01:25:15,001
Are you definitely going with that name?

1086
01:25:15,721 --> 01:25:17,241
Yeah, we're going to eCash.com.

1087
01:25:18,281 --> 01:25:19,081
Okay.

1088
01:25:19,081 --> 01:25:20,041
So wasn't there...

1089
01:25:20,041 --> 01:25:23,321
There was an issue there where there's like an existing eCash?

1090
01:25:23,321 --> 01:25:25,961
Yeah, but it's like 175th or something.

1091
01:25:25,961 --> 01:25:29,161
So with all that you've just learned, like I think you're not in the top five.

1092
01:25:29,161 --> 01:25:30,201
You might as well be in...

1093
01:25:30,201 --> 01:25:32,201
So I was like, this is a positive finish.

1094
01:25:32,201 --> 01:25:33,801
I saw you on that guy's show.

1095
01:25:34,361 --> 01:25:37,161
I went on the guy's show and that guy was very upset.

1096
01:25:37,161 --> 01:25:39,161
And I actually had like a whole plan.

1097
01:25:39,161 --> 01:25:42,281
I had like a bunch of points written out that I was going to say.

1098
01:25:42,281 --> 01:25:45,161
And then I had like a plan for like something that might have worked.

1099
01:25:45,161 --> 01:25:46,601
I think he blew it up.

1100
01:25:46,601 --> 01:25:50,601
I had like a plan of like stuff that we might have, you know, here's like some
options.

1101
01:25:51,401 --> 01:25:55,161
You know, and he just immediately was just like, you know, whatever, you suck.

1102
01:25:55,161 --> 01:25:56,441
We're going to kill you or whatever.

1103
01:25:57,801 --> 01:25:59,241
I had him on this show.

1104
01:25:59,241 --> 01:26:00,921
And yeah, he creeped me out.

1105
01:26:00,921 --> 01:26:03,081
I was like, yo, what is up with this guy?

1106
01:26:03,081 --> 01:26:05,241
He's probably going to now like attack the hell out of me.

1107
01:26:05,241 --> 01:26:05,881
And it's true.

1108
01:26:05,881 --> 01:26:09,081
He's a strange, strange fellow.

1109
01:26:09,081 --> 01:26:11,401
Yeah, he's got a pressure as well.

1110
01:26:12,281 --> 01:26:12,841
Yes, probably.

1111
01:26:12,841 --> 01:26:18,521
Yeah, he goes, he acts like he's like this super, you know, open-minded guy.

1112
01:26:18,521 --> 01:26:19,881
And then he flips out on you.

1113
01:26:19,881 --> 01:26:20,921
Then he's like, ask AI.

1114
01:26:24,281 --> 01:26:29,481
Well, for me, he was telling me like he has some means of raising like billions of
dollars

1115
01:26:29,481 --> 01:26:31,721
for a fund that will then purchase Monero.

1116
01:26:31,721 --> 01:26:32,761
I'm like, all right, all right.

1117
01:26:33,081 --> 01:26:33,881
Let me know when that happens.

1118
01:26:35,641 --> 01:26:37,881
But yeah, I thought it was odd that he really flipped out on that.

1119
01:26:37,881 --> 01:26:38,281
I guess so.

1120
01:26:38,281 --> 01:26:41,081
He's a big traditional e-cash holder.

1121
01:26:41,081 --> 01:26:41,481
I don't know.

1122
01:26:41,481 --> 01:26:42,601
What is the truth?

1123
01:26:42,601 --> 01:26:44,361
I shouldn't say traditionally or maybe.

1124
01:26:44,361 --> 01:26:45,881
What is that e-cash?

1125
01:26:45,881 --> 01:26:46,361
What is that?

1126
01:26:46,361 --> 01:26:49,481
The reason that I didn't care, I also didn't care, is because it was really David
Chaum

1127
01:26:49,481 --> 01:26:51,481
with the e-cash and even the Fediment people.

1128
01:26:52,681 --> 01:26:55,961
And there's also this terrible lightning project that also is the e-cash.

1129
01:26:55,961 --> 01:26:57,721
They all try to take the e-cash name.

1130
01:26:57,721 --> 01:27:00,761
I thought, well, like all the five or six other people have already like put in for

1131
01:27:00,761 --> 01:27:01,801
this name with their name.

1132
01:27:01,801 --> 01:27:03,321
How did you get e-cash.com?

1133
01:27:03,321 --> 01:27:05,961
Yeah, I just like cold messaged the person.

1134
01:27:05,961 --> 01:27:11,001
And then I cold messaged them with this like, I don't know, I had like nothing to do
one

1135
01:27:11,001 --> 01:27:11,961
day and I was bored.

1136
01:27:11,961 --> 01:27:13,721
And I was like, naming is really hard.

1137
01:27:13,721 --> 01:27:14,761
You know, names are hard.

1138
01:27:15,641 --> 01:27:17,641
I think naming is like so hard.

1139
01:27:17,641 --> 01:27:18,601
Hard for me anyway.

1140
01:27:19,161 --> 01:27:19,401
Yeah.

1141
01:27:19,401 --> 01:27:20,841
If you're thinking, oh, what's it going to be?

1142
01:27:20,841 --> 01:27:21,881
It's got to be short.

1143
01:27:21,881 --> 01:27:24,041
It's got to be like something you can kind of spell.

1144
01:27:24,041 --> 01:27:27,241
You know, you don't want it to be like, I hate the misspelled names.

1145
01:27:28,121 --> 01:27:29,001
I think that's rough.

1146
01:27:29,001 --> 01:27:29,721
If you're trying to run.

1147
01:27:32,121 --> 01:27:34,921
But the wild thing is, no matter what name you pick, there will be.

1148
01:27:34,921 --> 01:27:37,321
One thing was like, I was like, we have to get the .com.

1149
01:27:37,321 --> 01:27:43,481
It's non-negotiable because it's like, even with Bitcoin, there was originally,

1150
01:27:43,481 --> 01:27:45,561
there was like Bitcoin.org versus Bitcoin.com.

1151
01:27:45,561 --> 01:27:48,041
And there was like Bitcoin cash and all this other stuff.

1152
01:27:48,041 --> 01:27:49,241
That's the irony of it all.

1153
01:27:49,241 --> 01:27:52,601
But in every project, there's like impersonators and stuff.

1154
01:27:52,601 --> 01:27:56,521
And I was like, whatever it is, if .com is not available, just cross the name off
the

1155
01:27:56,521 --> 01:27:57,641
list, like just forget about it.

1156
01:27:57,641 --> 01:27:59,561
So that was part of my thinking.

1157
01:27:59,561 --> 01:28:01,961
So then the person had like a little intake form.

1158
01:28:01,961 --> 01:28:06,681
I sent them this like polite, I put on my like economist hat because I'm like an
economist,

1159
01:28:07,561 --> 01:28:13,481
you know, and like by training and also like whatever, at my heart and soul.

1160
01:28:13,481 --> 01:28:14,041
I don't know.

1161
01:28:14,041 --> 01:28:18,761
I forgot the idiom I was going to use, but whatever it was, an economist at heart, I

1162
01:28:18,761 --> 01:28:19,561
guess.

1163
01:28:19,561 --> 01:28:23,721
And so I sent them like this email that was like, it was like this convoluted thing.

1164
01:28:23,721 --> 01:28:25,161
It must have sounded crazy to them.

1165
01:28:25,721 --> 01:28:32,441
But I was like, so could we work something out where like I'm going to do this
project

1166
01:28:33,161 --> 01:28:33,561
maybe.

1167
01:28:34,281 --> 01:28:39,161
And if it's worth like a huge amount of money, like I'll give you like 10% of that.

1168
01:28:39,961 --> 01:28:43,881
But if it's worth not that much, then I'll give the domain back to you or something.

1169
01:28:44,441 --> 01:28:47,161
I had like this complex thing worked out.

1170
01:28:48,201 --> 01:28:51,961
And then like they emailed me back and then went back and forth and they were going
to

1171
01:28:51,961 --> 01:28:54,201
let it go for what I thought was an absurdly low amount.

1172
01:28:54,201 --> 01:29:00,681
Because I remember in 2021, it was like a few of these, it was like web cash and
like

1173
01:29:00,681 --> 01:29:02,361
e-coin and like e-cash.

1174
01:29:02,361 --> 01:29:05,081
These are all for like $8 million or something.

1175
01:29:05,081 --> 01:29:09,081
And this person was listing it for like less than $200,000.

1176
01:29:09,081 --> 01:29:10,761
So I was like, oh, OK, great.

1177
01:29:10,761 --> 01:29:13,081
I had the $3 million from Layer 2 Labs.

1178
01:29:13,081 --> 01:29:14,201
So this is all the stuff.

1179
01:29:14,201 --> 01:29:19,641
I accomplished all this stuff with just the $3 million that we raised in 2022,
including

1180
01:29:19,641 --> 01:29:20,681
getting the domain.

1181
01:29:20,681 --> 01:29:22,441
So now we just raised $5 million.

1182
01:29:22,441 --> 01:29:25,721
So I'm kind of a little bit optimistic about my overall competency.

1183
01:29:25,721 --> 01:29:29,641
I seem to be doing pretty well like on the actual tasks.

1184
01:29:29,641 --> 01:29:32,601
That doesn't, that's not enough to win, you know, as we both know.

1185
01:29:32,601 --> 01:29:35,001
But it's amazing you got e-cash.com.

1186
01:29:35,001 --> 01:29:36,121
I know, it's crazy, right?

1187
01:29:36,121 --> 01:29:36,921
I think it's bizarre.

1188
01:29:36,921 --> 01:29:41,161
And the really crazy thing is that they didn't, you know, I would have thought that
the other

1189
01:29:41,161 --> 01:29:46,281
people would have at least recognized that by not, they could have messaged that
person

1190
01:29:46,281 --> 01:29:47,641
the whole time and gotten it.

1191
01:29:47,641 --> 01:29:50,601
And so they have their little, they have like their weird domain.

1192
01:29:50,601 --> 01:29:54,281
Not only did I get e-cash.com, I got like e-cash.com.

1193
01:29:54,281 --> 01:29:55,641
I got all of them .net.

1194
01:29:55,641 --> 01:29:56,761
I got like a bunch of .orgs.

1195
01:29:56,761 --> 01:29:58,521
I got a bunch of like misspelled versions.

1196
01:29:58,521 --> 01:30:02,361
You know, I got like all these different variations because I was like, this is
important.

1197
01:30:02,361 --> 01:30:02,681
Yeah.

1198
01:30:02,681 --> 01:30:04,601
And so they just have the e.cash.

1199
01:30:04,601 --> 01:30:09,561
And I think it's pretty weird that they never like, you could, all that stuff you
could

1200
01:30:09,561 --> 01:30:12,921
have just, like a lot of those you could just buy for pretty cheap.

1201
01:30:13,801 --> 01:30:16,441
And then they never, they never messaged the guy at the .com.

1202
01:30:16,441 --> 01:30:17,881
And then I thought it was quite rude.

1203
01:30:17,881 --> 01:30:21,561
I'm sure I'm confident that most, most people agree that, you know, the guy right

1204
01:30:21,561 --> 01:30:22,201
out of the gate.

1205
01:30:22,201 --> 01:30:24,201
Because again, I had my list of things.

1206
01:30:24,201 --> 01:30:28,361
The other thing that I'm not sure we got across, but I mentioned it on Twitter was

1207
01:30:28,361 --> 01:30:30,121
that I had no idea.

1208
01:30:30,121 --> 01:30:34,681
I actually knew the Omri Sashay, but I had no idea that it was his project.

1209
01:30:35,241 --> 01:30:40,681
So while before it was announced, before it was announced, but after I got the
domain,

1210
01:30:41,321 --> 01:30:44,441
I sent him like a polite message saying, oh, actually I have this domain.

1211
01:30:44,601 --> 01:30:49,321
You know, I had no idea that, that you were doing, you were doing e.cash.

1212
01:30:50,041 --> 01:30:54,041
And also because I Googled it when I was first getting it and I saw it was like 176.

1213
01:30:54,041 --> 01:30:58,761
So I was like, this is just some, you know, this is like some guy somewhere got this
domain.

1214
01:30:59,481 --> 01:31:00,201
That's what I thought.

1215
01:31:00,201 --> 01:31:06,361
I thought like some guy got e.cash and they said, I can probably flip this for like
$80,000

1216
01:31:06,361 --> 01:31:08,601
worth of some stupid coin.

1217
01:31:08,601 --> 01:31:08,841
Yeah.

1218
01:31:08,841 --> 01:31:12,601
So I thought it was like a bottom of the barrel, complete nothing coin.

1219
01:31:12,601 --> 01:31:13,721
And there would be zero users.

1220
01:31:13,721 --> 01:31:16,441
There'd be no one would even be on Twitter.

1221
01:31:16,441 --> 01:31:16,681
Right.

1222
01:31:16,681 --> 01:31:17,881
That was my honest thought.

1223
01:31:17,881 --> 01:31:21,241
Because I just thought, you know, like this is because the project, the market cap
is

1224
01:31:21,241 --> 01:31:23,561
really, the market cap is like less than a hundred million dollars.

1225
01:31:24,441 --> 01:31:28,121
So like, I'm like sitting next to, sometimes I'm like having like breakfast with
like Adam

1226
01:31:28,121 --> 01:31:29,081
Back or something.

1227
01:31:29,081 --> 01:31:31,641
Blockstream's raised $250 million in cash.

1228
01:31:32,361 --> 01:31:35,881
So I'm like, this is like, so I was like, whatever, you know, so it was kind of a
funny

1229
01:31:35,881 --> 01:31:37,561
situation I think overall.

1230
01:31:37,561 --> 01:31:41,001
But yeah, I was, I messaged him before, before I had announced.

1231
01:31:41,081 --> 01:31:43,001
After you're not too late, never going back.

1232
01:31:43,001 --> 01:31:43,161
No.

1233
01:31:44,041 --> 01:31:47,001
But you know, he couldn't, he didn't say anything then.

1234
01:31:47,001 --> 01:31:48,761
He got the double check.

1235
01:31:48,761 --> 01:31:49,881
So he read it.

1236
01:31:49,881 --> 01:31:52,521
We had messaged before, not that often over the years.

1237
01:31:52,521 --> 01:31:52,921
Okay.

1238
01:31:53,481 --> 01:31:57,561
But so he could have said, oh, like, you know, that's so great that you could, would
you

1239
01:31:57,561 --> 01:31:59,561
mind saving it for me and we'll work out something.

1240
01:31:59,561 --> 01:32:00,361
I'll buy it from you.

1241
01:32:00,361 --> 01:32:03,081
Then I would have probably switched to a different name.

1242
01:32:03,081 --> 01:32:04,281
So they did everything.

1243
01:32:04,281 --> 01:32:06,201
I did literally everything wrong.

1244
01:32:06,201 --> 01:32:09,401
And they could have even still at the thing, they didn't even have any kind of
polite

1245
01:32:09,401 --> 01:32:15,081
acknowledgement that they missed horribly mismanaged this situation and they allowed

1246
01:32:15,081 --> 01:32:15,241
it.

1247
01:32:15,241 --> 01:32:15,641
Yeah.

1248
01:32:15,641 --> 01:32:19,321
I thought I was, I came away from that just thinking these guys are complete idiots
and

1249
01:32:19,321 --> 01:32:19,881
whatever.

1250
01:32:19,881 --> 01:32:20,121
Yeah.

1251
01:32:20,121 --> 01:32:21,721
He was, he was really flipping out.

1252
01:32:23,481 --> 01:32:24,361
I don't even know what he can't.

1253
01:32:24,361 --> 01:32:24,521
Yeah.

1254
01:32:24,521 --> 01:32:26,361
I don't even know if like, yeah.

1255
01:32:27,401 --> 01:32:27,561
Yeah.

1256
01:32:27,561 --> 01:32:29,401
I'd never heard of it before.

1257
01:32:29,401 --> 01:32:31,241
Like, and I saw, I've heard of it.

1258
01:32:31,241 --> 01:32:36,281
I've heard of it on CoinMarketCap, but that I thought there's absolutely no way this
is

1259
01:32:36,281 --> 01:32:37,881
even real, you know?

1260
01:32:38,841 --> 01:32:39,081
Yeah.

1261
01:32:39,081 --> 01:32:40,361
So that was what happened.

1262
01:32:40,361 --> 01:32:40,601
Yeah.

1263
01:32:41,561 --> 01:32:42,441
It's a great name though.

1264
01:32:42,441 --> 01:32:43,801
You gotta have a name that's easy to spell.

1265
01:32:43,801 --> 01:32:45,561
It's easy to, you know, type.

1266
01:32:46,361 --> 01:32:51,321
And yeah, I think you gotta have the .com because of course, especially think about
how it is

1267
01:32:51,321 --> 01:32:57,401
in the cypherpunk world where, you know, everyone's wondering like, is this a scam
site?

1268
01:32:57,401 --> 01:33:01,241
Like I'm trying to download Electrum or something, you know, I'm trying to download
whatever.

1269
01:33:02,041 --> 01:33:05,561
And you try, see, this is when you're trying to download the latest version of
Monero,

1270
01:33:05,561 --> 01:33:07,321
which you must do every six months.

1271
01:33:07,881 --> 01:33:09,481
So now it's really a big deal.

1272
01:33:09,481 --> 01:33:10,921
It's not every six months.

1273
01:33:10,921 --> 01:33:12,121
It's not every six months.

1274
01:33:12,121 --> 01:33:12,681
Not anymore.

1275
01:33:12,681 --> 01:33:13,081
Sorry.

1276
01:33:13,081 --> 01:33:18,841
I am talking like, you gotta remember, I'm like very OG, so I have all this ancient
lore

1277
01:33:19,561 --> 01:33:21,641
that, but yeah.

1278
01:33:21,641 --> 01:33:30,441
And so I think Monero, I humbly suggest Monero prioritize not doing that because it
centralizes

1279
01:33:30,441 --> 01:33:30,921
the project.

1280
01:33:30,921 --> 01:33:31,241
It gives you.

1281
01:33:31,961 --> 01:33:32,121
Yeah.

1282
01:33:32,121 --> 01:33:36,201
Like I said, it really, it's every couple of years that, you know, we have full
chain

1283
01:33:36,201 --> 01:33:37,401
membership proofs after that.

1284
01:33:37,401 --> 01:33:38,201
I don't know.

1285
01:33:38,201 --> 01:33:41,161
I'm sure there'll be some quantum, quantum update.

1286
01:33:41,161 --> 01:33:42,521
Yeah, that's a good point.

1287
01:33:43,081 --> 01:33:43,401
Yeah.

1288
01:33:43,401 --> 01:33:44,841
But beyond that, there should be.

1289
01:33:44,841 --> 01:33:51,401
It's funny, the quantum is what, I think that's kind of, because in BTC, everyone
understands

1290
01:33:51,401 --> 01:33:56,121
the quantum will like, is bad because you can spend other people's coins.

1291
01:33:56,121 --> 01:33:58,041
So then that's the whole network will be dead.

1292
01:33:58,041 --> 01:34:01,401
There's no reason to own any coins if other people can spend it.

1293
01:34:01,401 --> 01:34:05,721
So it's the kind of the one thing where they can't say, oh, we're perfect.

1294
01:34:05,721 --> 01:34:07,481
So BTC is always like, we thought of everything.

1295
01:34:07,481 --> 01:34:08,361
We're perfect.

1296
01:34:08,361 --> 01:34:12,521
Then they're like, oh, by the way, the smartest minds are also here and they will
release.

1297
01:34:13,481 --> 01:34:14,441
There will be an update.

1298
01:34:14,441 --> 01:34:15,961
That's like what Michael Saylor said.

1299
01:34:15,961 --> 01:34:20,521
It's funny when he's confronted with a real problem.

1300
01:34:20,521 --> 01:34:25,721
He says, you know, the market will decide that or, you know, there will be an
update.

1301
01:34:25,721 --> 01:34:26,921
It's like what Vitalik used to say.

1302
01:34:28,121 --> 01:34:33,161
Well, with people that are listening in that are interested in e-cash and side
chains and

1303
01:34:33,161 --> 01:34:37,001
want to be a part of the launch and the project, what should they do?

1304
01:34:38,201 --> 01:34:45,241
Well, we have e-cash.com and you can follow me on Twitter and, you know, hang out in
Telegram.

1305
01:34:47,241 --> 01:34:50,921
It's weird because I had set it up because there's a lot of people joining and to
spam.

1306
01:34:50,921 --> 01:34:54,841
But if you go on my Twitter, you can find like all the links, like all the YouTube
and everything.

1307
01:34:55,561 --> 01:34:57,801
And there's a Telegram group.

1308
01:34:57,801 --> 01:34:59,961
It's a t.me slash DC insiders.

1309
01:34:59,961 --> 01:35:05,961
But that one takes you to where you have to pay like $1 in stars to get into the
real group

1310
01:35:05,961 --> 01:35:09,641
because the group was very popular and there's bots and stuff.

1311
01:35:09,641 --> 01:35:14,361
And the stars was a really great idea that Telegram had that said, hey, you know,

1312
01:35:14,361 --> 01:35:19,241
because like $1 is not actually going to deter a serious person.

1313
01:35:19,881 --> 01:35:25,961
But the spam person actually kind of would because so that was kind of clever.

1314
01:35:25,961 --> 01:35:29,961
So we had to, you know, hang out with us in Telegram, hang out on Twitter,

1315
01:35:31,001 --> 01:35:34,041
hang out with us on YouTube, check out the site.

1316
01:35:34,041 --> 01:35:36,841
The site has like, you know, FAQ, like why do this?

1317
01:35:36,841 --> 01:35:41,641
We have like an AI that's like trained on all of my tweets or something.

1318
01:35:41,641 --> 01:35:44,281
It's kind of funny, but I think it could be passable.

1319
01:35:44,281 --> 01:35:47,881
So you can ask the AI these questions like whatever.

1320
01:35:47,881 --> 01:35:48,921
Why is Paul doing this?

1321
01:35:48,921 --> 01:35:49,641
This is a good idea.

1322
01:35:51,401 --> 01:35:52,681
And yeah, try the software.

1323
01:35:52,681 --> 01:35:53,561
Try the software out.

1324
01:35:54,281 --> 01:35:56,361
And we have a bug contest.

1325
01:35:56,361 --> 01:35:58,201
We just finished contest one.

1326
01:35:58,201 --> 01:36:01,081
Every two weeks, we give away $20,000.

1327
01:36:02,041 --> 01:36:03,881
So whoever finds the most bugs wins.

1328
01:36:03,881 --> 01:36:05,161
We have first, second, third place.

1329
01:36:06,601 --> 01:36:12,601
So we're very serious and we are sending money out to people.

1330
01:36:13,721 --> 01:36:17,081
And so yeah, we're doing lots of stuff.

1331
01:36:17,081 --> 01:36:17,881
And check it out.

1332
01:36:17,881 --> 01:36:19,161
Check out ecash.com.

1333
01:36:20,601 --> 01:36:21,561
Follow me on Twitter.

1334
01:36:21,561 --> 01:36:23,001
I'm truthquin on Twitter.

1335
01:36:23,001 --> 01:36:26,521
That was originally because Truthcoin was the Prediction Markets project.

1336
01:36:26,521 --> 01:36:29,401
That was the original name for the Bitcoin Prediction Markets.

1337
01:36:29,401 --> 01:36:33,801
That was long before there were all these coins, you know, Feathercoin and whatever.

1338
01:36:33,801 --> 01:36:35,961
You know, Terracoin.

1339
01:36:35,961 --> 01:36:39,481
So then I was like, this sucks for me because it looks like I'm running some stupid
altcoin.

1340
01:36:41,161 --> 01:36:41,801
Big mistake.

1341
01:36:43,081 --> 01:36:44,601
Do you have truthcoin.com?

1342
01:36:44,601 --> 01:36:46,121
I'm sure you grabbed that one.

1343
01:36:46,121 --> 01:36:46,621
I did.

1344
01:36:47,561 --> 01:36:48,441
I got it long ago.

1345
01:36:49,081 --> 01:36:50,201
Someone else had it.

1346
01:36:50,201 --> 01:36:54,521
Some poor person, they had it and they got like hacked and lost like all their
coins.

1347
01:36:54,521 --> 01:36:56,841
So then I bought it from them.

1348
01:36:56,841 --> 01:37:01,721
But yeah, truthcoin.com, truthcoin.org, truthcoin.info, I think.

1349
01:37:01,721 --> 01:37:03,961
Truthcoin.info is my big truthcoin site.

1350
01:37:04,521 --> 01:37:05,481
I changed the name.

1351
01:37:05,481 --> 01:37:08,201
This is what I learned about never change the name because it's not worth it.

1352
01:37:08,201 --> 01:37:09,001
You don't get anything.

1353
01:37:09,001 --> 01:37:11,721
I changed the prediction market things to bitcoinhivemind.com.

1354
01:37:12,281 --> 01:37:14,121
So I changed all that around.

1355
01:37:15,161 --> 01:37:16,041
But you know how it is.

1356
01:37:16,921 --> 01:37:18,041
So never change the name.

1357
01:37:18,041 --> 01:37:18,761
It's not worth it.

1358
01:37:20,681 --> 01:37:24,761
All right, Paul, man, thank you so much for joining me.

1359
01:37:24,761 --> 01:37:27,641
Greatly appreciate you jumping on whenever you can.

1360
01:37:28,281 --> 01:37:29,961
It's always a great conversation.

1361
01:37:29,961 --> 01:37:31,881
And I'm excited to see where this goes.

1362
01:37:31,881 --> 01:37:32,441
I'm interested.

1363
01:37:33,081 --> 01:37:40,681
I mean, I think the title of this is Will Zside Replace Monero and Zcash?

1364
01:37:40,681 --> 01:37:41,881
Well, yeah.

1365
01:37:41,881 --> 01:37:44,841
So that's obviously a clickbaity title.

1366
01:37:45,561 --> 01:37:50,921
Um, if it does, I hope that all the Monero people are like early, early, early in on
the,

1367
01:37:50,921 --> 01:37:55,001
you know, because it'll just be a repeat, like Bitcoin, like super candle or
whatever,

1368
01:37:55,001 --> 01:37:55,881
if I'm if I'm right.

1369
01:37:55,881 --> 01:37:57,721
But now or it could just be a giant disaster.

1370
01:37:57,721 --> 01:38:03,001
So but if it does, then I think that I hope that the Monero people because we will
need

1371
01:38:03,001 --> 01:38:05,561
the Monero people are now the more serious community.

1372
01:38:07,721 --> 01:38:08,841
In terms of usage.

1373
01:38:08,841 --> 01:38:11,881
So yeah, no, it's it's always encouraging to hear you.

1374
01:38:12,681 --> 01:38:15,001
You're pro Monero take coming from you.

1375
01:38:15,001 --> 01:38:16,201
So I appreciate that.

1376
01:38:17,401 --> 01:38:18,521
But yeah, we can leave it here, man.

1377
01:38:19,081 --> 01:38:20,121
We'll be in touch.

1378
01:38:20,121 --> 01:38:22,761
I'm gonna go ahead and roll the credits.

1379
01:38:22,761 --> 01:38:23,401
Thank you so much.

1380
01:38:24,521 --> 01:38:24,841
Thank you.

1381
01:38:29,961 --> 01:38:31,321
Hi, Monero Land.

1382
01:38:31,321 --> 01:38:34,121
Thank you for joining us on this week's episode.

1383
01:38:34,121 --> 01:38:36,281
We release new episodes every week.

1384
01:38:36,281 --> 01:38:41,481
You can find and subscribe to our show on YouTube, Odyssey, iTunes, Spotify,

1385
01:38:41,481 --> 01:38:43,161
or wherever you listen to podcasts.

1386
01:38:43,721 --> 01:38:47,961
Go to MoneroTalk.live for a full list of places where you can watch and listen.

1387
01:38:48,521 --> 01:38:52,441
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1388
01:38:52,441 --> 01:38:56,761
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1389
01:38:58,121 --> 01:39:02,841
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1390
01:39:03,401 --> 01:39:05,801
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1391
01:39:05,801 --> 01:39:10,681
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1392
01:39:10,681 --> 01:39:11,641
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1393
01:39:12,281 --> 01:39:14,441
Once again, thanks so much for listening.

1394
01:39:14,441 --> 01:39:27,481
And we look forward to being back next week.