1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,920 What in the Sam Hill is going on? Why do you want to fork Bitcoin? 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:07,320 Well, you know, I was a Bitcoin maximalist basically my entire life until now. 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:09,840 But really, I have some concerns. 4 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:16,040 And I think that competition is, you know, the cure for all ills. 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,520 And I think we've been complacent and overconfident for a long time. 6 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,120 I mean, one thing is we were on the security budget panel. 7 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,520 So we were like the four of us were like the four doom and gloom people. 8 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:30,200 But then opposite us is most of like Twitter. 9 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:33,960 Most of like the culture is just saying, oh, Bitcoin is perfect. 10 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:35,600 Bitcoin is immortal. 11 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:37,440 Don't break Bitcoin. 12 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:41,400 Like that was the up next message was don't break Bitcoin for, you know, 13 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:43,800 until we got this quantum distraction. 14 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:44,760 But we get to that. 15 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,360 But then it was like, you know, like Michael Saylor's like Bitcoin is hope. 16 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,080 Jimmy Song is like Bitcoin is God. 17 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:53,560 So we got all this like everything's perfect. 18 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,360 But then some of us have, you know, a few concerns. 19 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,840 And I have a lot of concerns and I wrote a lot of them down for years. 20 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:04,960 And I'm just worried about like, I think we're going in the wrong direction. 21 00:01:04,960 --> 00:01:06,960 And I think not only do we have these problems, 22 00:01:06,960 --> 00:01:09,680 but we get less and less honest about them over time. 23 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,080 And we have more and more in denial about them. 24 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,640 And so that's a situation where instead of just having a perfect ingredient 25 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,360 with like one or two problems, we have something that's 26 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,520 attitude that's spreading. That is. 27 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:23,520 Yeah. Yeah. 28 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,680 I think before we go other than that, it's going perfectly in Bitcoin. 29 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:31,440 Well, before we get into like the specifics of the fork, 30 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,920 I want to you, you know, I hadn't read, you know, we went 31 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,760 we went to Vegas shortly after you announced this force. 32 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:41,320 I didn't really have time to like dive into the eCash dot com and the 33 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:43,040 and your rationale. 34 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:47,600 And I'll kind of invite you to reprise what you're saying here, which is 35 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,800 which is, I think, on the number number four of your Q&A. 36 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:57,040 Do you really think that a fork, your new coin that can defeat Bitcoin? 37 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,120 What's what's your response? 38 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,360 Well, you know, honestly, I'm glad that you asked that, 39 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:06,480 because I think a lot of people, you know, jump to conclusions. 40 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,440 So I'd like to clarify that I don't plan on selling BTC. 41 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:12,000 The way I see it is this. 42 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,200 We're on the Titanic and we are headed sort of for an iceberg. 43 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:17,800 I think we'll probably miss the iceberg. 44 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:19,960 So I think it's less than 50 percent chance. 45 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,200 But, you know, if we hit that iceberg, we're all going to die. 46 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:24,720 And, you know, it's women and children first. 47 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:25,560 So we're going to freeze. 48 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,280 You and I will be freezing to death. 49 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:28,520 That doesn't appeal to me. 50 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,920 So I'm like sawing apart all the deck chairs and like the dining room table. 51 00:02:32,920 --> 00:02:35,920 I'm trying to make more life rafts, you know, like really, really fast. 52 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,200 And I got to tell you, also, one thing that maybe I didn't emphasize 53 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:42,520 is that I think we'll miss the iceberg. 54 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:44,560 So maybe there's only a 20 percent chance we'll hit. 55 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:48,600 And I also think the eCash, it might not be enough to save our lives 56 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:49,880 if we hit the iceberg. 57 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,280 So I think I'm actually going to miss twice. 58 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:54,880 This is giving a lot of people an opportunity to point and laugh. 59 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,680 I'm happy to avail them of that opportunity or whatever, you know, 60 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:00,600 do get whatever you like. 61 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,920 But I think honestly, we may be in for a rough time 62 00:03:04,920 --> 00:03:09,920 because it's very difficult to change culture anywhere, especially in Bitcoin. 63 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,040 And I think also it's very difficult to fight the network effect. 64 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:13,720 So I don't know. 65 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,720 But yeah, I think basically there will only be one winning cryptocurrency, 66 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,200 which is part of why I was a maximalist this whole time. 67 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:21,440 That view has not changed one bit. 68 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,120 So I just think maybe it will be a different one than BTC 69 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:26,200 and it will be one that preserves the ownership. 70 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,080 So I think the ownership set is much more important than people give credit for. 71 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,120 And I can give a couple examples of that. 72 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:33,560 But I think a lot of people intuitively already know that. 73 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:35,760 But other people, I think, really believe 74 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,280 there's something magical about what Bitcoin Core is doing 75 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:40,120 and that they're just really great developers, 76 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,600 even though they haven't developed anything in 99.99 percent of the ideas 77 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:44,720 came from Satoshi. 78 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:49,080 And instead, we've just done new ideas that are that suck and are terrible. 79 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,360 So it's a SegWit taproot and lightning network, 80 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,040 which have all been a complete waste of time 81 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,480 and have derailed the whole growth of the industry. 82 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,880 So, Paul, one quick question. 83 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,520 And then I would love for you to kind of lay the background here 84 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:02,320 for some of our listeners 85 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,600 who are not familiar with the proposal of exactly what the eCash fork does. 86 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,480 But I guess a tag on question to that before you explain 87 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,800 what the fork is trying to accomplish and the changes it makes. 88 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,080 It would per your last point, would success for you 89 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,760 then look like eCash being the number one cryptocurrency? 90 00:04:19,280 --> 00:04:20,640 Right. It would. Yeah. 91 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:22,120 I think they'll only be number one. 92 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:23,760 They'll only be one that wins, I think. 93 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:28,280 And even in the long run, many of the fiat currencies will kill themselves also. 94 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,560 So I don't know exactly what the far future looks like. 95 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:36,440 It might be like dollar and crypto, which is like dollars. 96 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,320 Like, you know, my friend, I have a very funny friend, 97 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,600 but he would call them like slave bucks or whatever. 98 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,560 He would say they'll be like the the regulated mainstream one. 99 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,440 And then they'll be like the Internet, like confusing one. 100 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:49,680 That's like for the Uberman. 101 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:51,760 But, you know, it could just be that, you know, one takes over. 102 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:55,720 Yeah, I don't I don't really get that much the need for like, 103 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,640 you know, 55 cryptocurrencies. 104 00:04:59,280 --> 00:05:01,640 OK, so sorry. 105 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:03,920 I have a I want to I want to inject a question here. 106 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:08,760 OK, so Paul, in your in your justification, it's it's honestly pretty compelling. 107 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,960 I respect the like arguments you give for why you're doing this. 108 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:16,240 A lot of it is you want to provide a viable competitive alternative. 109 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:22,520 If hypothetical scenario, if eCash somehow is able to spark 110 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:28,240 a change in culture and direction for the Bitcoin network, 111 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,680 would you consider that a success? 112 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,000 Yes. Yes, absolutely. OK. 113 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,560 Yeah. So, Paul, just give us give our listeners a quick rundown 114 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,880 of the most salient changes as you see them in the eCash fork. 115 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,120 What are what are you what are you trying to change? 116 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,080 I think, well, one of them, there's two things about it 117 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,160 that I think people could wrap their head around. 118 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:51,480 One is I'm really trying not to change as much as possible. 119 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,200 So that's I'm going to unpack that in a second. 120 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,640 But then secondly, you know, I'm a big show for these merge mined L2s 121 00:05:56,840 --> 00:05:57,960 called Drivechains. 122 00:05:57,960 --> 00:05:59,120 That's really the meat of it. 123 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,640 But these are kind of related because I can activate Drivechains 124 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,200 without changing any lines of code in Bitcoin core. 125 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:09,000 So that's also what I think we should do in BTC right now with Bitcoin core. 126 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:10,280 We should just do that. 127 00:06:10,280 --> 00:06:13,920 We can activate this software without changing any lines of code in BTC. 128 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:15,920 That's also what I plan on doing on eCash. 129 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,960 But really, I think I'm one of the few people, maybe I'm perhaps the only one. 130 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:20,920 I'm not sure. 131 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,360 But I'm doing this hard fork where I'm not really betting on 132 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,320 me being a benevolent dictator of the fork. 133 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:31,600 So like the L1 is going to be exactly the same as Bitcoin core in every way. 134 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:36,640 And that is to invite anyone who likes Bitcoin core over to the L1 135 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:40,120 because it's going to be basically exactly the same both now and in the future. 136 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:42,000 And that's for many of the L2s. 137 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,840 Many of them will will try to be very similar to successful altcoins, 138 00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:49,680 such as Zcash and, you know, other other ones that actually have a point. 139 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:51,960 Monero, they have like an actual purpose to them. 140 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,640 And so I'm trying to give everyone what they want. 141 00:06:54,840 --> 00:06:58,280 And as you can imagine, that has made me a very hated figure on Twitter 142 00:06:58,840 --> 00:07:02,480 because people don't like it when you give them what they want, 143 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,880 because that makes everything else they've had in their mind look bad by 144 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:10,000 by comparison. But but that's really the idea is for me. 145 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,160 I'm not I'm very agnostic. 146 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,200 Like I pass no judgment on what the user wants. 147 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:20,320 So when Roger Ver says he wants large blocks, I just say, well, that's that's true. 148 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,080 But other people say, oh, you know, he shouldn't want that or he actually wants 149 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,240 something else. He actually wants a lightning network or something like that. 150 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,680 And then same thing when like people do Monero for privacy. 151 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,480 People say, well, people try to say that's an insincere want. 152 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:34,240 But I try to give everyone what they want. 153 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,160 That's why that's my shtick. 154 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:40,480 So it sounds like you embrace the reality that they're just irreconcilable 155 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:45,720 differences of opinion and you try to say, OK, well, in that case, then 156 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:50,960 then your Drivechain implementation at least allows for people to express 157 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,600 those differences of opinion while somehow being related to the same network. 158 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,080 Am I understanding that correctly? 159 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:56,960 That's exactly right. 160 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:02,200 And also, that's part of why I'm so dismayed that it's not hasn't been prioritized. 161 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,880 So, of course, it sort of hurts my feelings a little bit 162 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,760 that we're not we don't jump at my ideas and jumps the front of the line for everyone. 163 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,200 But, you know, I can get over that. 164 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,800 First of all, like we haven't done any ideas like we haven't done 165 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,120 OP_CAT or something, which is 13 lines of code. 166 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:18,960 And that was in the original client. 167 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:20,960 And so I think we've lost the ability to soft fork. 168 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,840 That's why I think this this issue, this whole issue is very, very, very 169 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:26,080 like high dimensional. 170 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,440 So you have to like people have different like groups where they think, 171 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,600 you know, like we should ossify or they think, you know, Paul is just bitter 172 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:35,200 about his idea not being respected. 173 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:36,640 But I think it's really hard. 174 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:41,480 If you consider all the facts, I think it's bizarre that this idea is not. 175 00:08:41,680 --> 00:08:43,280 This is kind of a meta idea. 176 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,440 So this idea says, I mean, we've been losing people constantly left and right. 177 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,560 So like we originally lost the large blockers in the scaling war. 178 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:53,280 Then we had to bet everything on lightning, 179 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,400 even though lightning basically doesn't work. 180 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:57,360 And it certainly cannot scale to eight billion people, 181 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:58,880 which is the whole shtick upon it. 182 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:02,560 And that's what, you know, big cultural leaders, you know, I've seen Michael 183 00:09:02,560 --> 00:09:07,240 Saylor say many times like, oh, Bitcoin will scale through using lightning 184 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:10,120 and these other layer twos and layer three protocol. 185 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:11,280 This is just like a thing. 186 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,160 But this is the idea in everyone's head. 187 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:14,160 And then, of course, like on. 188 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,360 You know, on Nostra, on Primal, like they have everyone 189 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:20,440 they have a little lightning icon is everywhere, 190 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:22,400 even though none of the users, the lightning network. 191 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,240 So the whole thing has become again, this speaks to my point 192 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,560 about bad ideas spreading and like we have like a zombie team 193 00:09:28,560 --> 00:09:31,040 that's like biting people and infecting people, it's flipping, you know. 194 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:33,920 And so it can be can go really fast as to whether. 195 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,600 But anyway, the point I'm trying to make is we've been losing people. 196 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:38,240 We lost the large blockers. 197 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,680 We lost the privacy people to like Monero, basically, and see cash. 198 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,160 We lost the darknet markets and that we lost in the stable coin. 199 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,240 Volume is on stable coin. 200 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:48,920 That was originally Omni. 201 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:50,720 That was originally MasterCoin. 202 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:52,840 This was originally all these were Bitcoin projects. 203 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:55,360 Ethereum. This was a Bitcoin project. 204 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:56,200 These were all big. 205 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,040 All these were Bitcoin projects. 206 00:09:58,040 --> 00:09:59,880 But we started losing them. 207 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:03,280 And although in the past people would have a big conversation about it, 208 00:10:03,560 --> 00:10:06,000 like when Ethereum came out, it was taken for granted. 209 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,640 Everyone said in 2015, we will just do sidechains. 210 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,040 We will have smart contracts on Bitcoin. 211 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:13,800 There was like Rootstock is the answer to this. 212 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,760 Blockstream is the answer, the answer to Ethereum. 213 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,880 But now we have more and more sour grapes. 214 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,400 It's harder to talk about it now than ever before, 215 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:27,240 where someone will do something new and we'll all just sort of shrug 216 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,240 and we'll say, well, we never really wanted that. 217 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:31,280 We never really wanted privacy on Bitcoin anyway, 218 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,200 even though that's something that zero percent of people would have said 219 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,640 back when this stuff was first, when Zcash was first proposed 220 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,280 as like zero coin on Bitcoin. 221 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,680 So, Paul, latching on to some of the stuff that you just said there, 222 00:10:42,680 --> 00:10:45,600 you know, Michael Saylor's on stage waxing poetic 223 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,640 about the brilliance of Bitcoin L2s and how it's going to scale Bitcoin. 224 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,360 But part of what I'm understanding from what you're saying is 225 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,240 the tooling for that obviously has not been prioritized. 226 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,080 I mean, like you just mentioned, OP_CAT, OP_CTV, all these things 227 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,880 basically got shelled and kind of overtaken by the quantum talk, 228 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:01,760 which we can touch on in a second. 229 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,720 But you also said that you are not you don't have necessarily sour grapes 230 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:07,720 about your proposal being prioritized. 231 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:08,920 But I think a lot of people would say 232 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,120 it seems like you're jumping the queue to get it put in by hard forking. 233 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:13,640 What would you say to that criticism? 234 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:15,520 Well, yeah, the queue is moving too slow. 235 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:17,840 But I mean, I proposed it in November 2015. 236 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,360 So how how much slower could it possibly get? 237 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:22,120 I just I don't understand like what. 238 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,280 And then it's it's not I don't think like if there were any evidence 239 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:30,680 the queue worked, then that would be easier to like agree with. 240 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,440 But I think OP_CAT really is the smoking gun. 241 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:35,400 It says there's this tiny, tiny thing. 242 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:37,440 It basically does nothing. 243 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,280 It just takes X, Y and puts X, Y on the stack. 244 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,120 And it was in the original version. 245 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,280 People have by now, if someone had said there was stuff about like stack, 246 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,680 you know, elements, stack size by now, if anyone had any kind of problem with it, 247 00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:53,960 you know, it would have been very, very, very easy to. 248 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:56,360 This is like the perfect candidate. 249 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,800 And a lot of people had had enormous support from all the roll up 250 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,800 Stark Stark where guys and they have lots of money. 251 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,520 So it's kind of like what is the problem? 252 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:08,840 You know, it's not just empirical. 253 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,040 Like I've talked to many a lot of these people are very good friends of mine. 254 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,320 Like so even when back in the era of scaling one, scaling two, scaling three, 255 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,560 this was like 2015, 2016 we were talking to. 256 00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:22,280 So like I don't want to like necessarily name any names, but like one of the biggest 257 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:26,000 people in the space who you guys should interview and he's a super nice guy 258 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,120 and he's super experienced, Eric Lombroso. 259 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,560 He was talking about how like we used to do. 260 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,640 He and I agree completely about like we used to do these soft forks all the time. 261 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,760 They were never controversial. 262 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,480 In my view, the op code soft fork should be treated exactly the same 263 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:41,800 as any other pull request. 264 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,160 It's just a tiny detail that you have to have 51 percent 265 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,600 hash rate upgrade before people can safely use it. 266 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:53,520 But there's a tiny, tiny detail that does not mean anything. 267 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,840 It just means that there'll be a little flag in the software 268 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,240 and because the miners will periodically update. 269 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:01,160 You know, maybe they don't update as fast as people like. 270 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,200 I think that's great that they don't update because why screw up? 271 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:05,960 You know who does think of all those people? 272 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:07,000 Like when do you update your phone? 273 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:08,720 When do you do like Windows update or whatever? 274 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,560 Everyone's like we got normal people like installing special weird stuff 275 00:13:12,560 --> 00:13:15,200 on their computer to stop it from upgrading because it's so annoying. 276 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,560 But eventually, you know, when you set up a new thing, you upgrade. 277 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:23,480 So we can't do the soft fork and it's become political 278 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,240 purely as a consequence of the scaling of what happened with SegWit. 279 00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:29,960 This is all this is deranged nonsense. 280 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,440 That is not a shred of truth or value in it at all. 281 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,040 And it's just an excuse for everyone to just start weighing in. 282 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,240 And the whole thing is is crazy. 283 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,320 And that's that's what you see what I mean. 284 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,600 It's not just about not having BIP300 like my favorite little BIP that I wrote. 285 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,480 It's like this is the community that we're in. 286 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,760 You've shown up to a community and it's it's full of people 287 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,200 who make their decisions in an insane way. 288 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,320 So how many other decisions are being made with this screwed up logic? 289 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,720 And I actually wrote a long post called The Derangements of Bitcoin, 290 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,920 where I just listed something like 40 or 50 bizarre decisions we have made. 291 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,520 These are include like, you know, prioritizing the Lightning Network 292 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:10,320 like near the top. 293 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,800 But then I have all kinds of minor bizarre ones also. 294 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,480 Like there's no BIP 39 word list in Bitcoin Core. 295 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:16,720 Like what? Like, why not? 296 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:18,920 Like it's all just so I have an endless list. 297 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,800 You can check out my post, The Derangements of Bitcoin, where I just. 298 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:26,040 And that is not BIP 39 is not secure, even though everyone uses it. 299 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:27,880 Yeah, it's like I guess. 300 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:29,240 Yeah, the ship has sailed on that. 301 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,120 And they say, well, we need it needs to have like a version number or something. 302 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,440 Yeah. And it's like not really, because it's just a way of converting integers 303 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,320 to phrases. So it doesn't really need a version number. 304 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,720 Not it's not like mission critical, but that's the logic. 305 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:46,160 So I want to ask you some specifics about the fork, 306 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,000 and I think it's kind of interesting. 307 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:53,800 A lot of there's a like how the fork actually happens is is pretty interesting. 308 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,040 That can be you can go a bunch of ways. 309 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:02,320 I was looking through your your Q&A and it looks like so for ETA this summer, 310 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,640 I think it's like August, is it? 311 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:06,440 Yes. Late August. OK. 312 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,120 OK, August. And then at the moment of the fork, 313 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,920 we have to figure out how the how the network produces blocks. 314 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:19,400 And you are doing a one time difficulty reset to the minimum difficulty value. 315 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:24,480 Explain why what that is and why you chose to do it that way. 316 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,760 Well, I have to say, like maybe minimum might be like the minimum asterisk, 317 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,320 because, of course, there's like the CPU era and then there's like the ASIC era. 318 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,560 So but what I'm basically thinking is like if you had like a hundred block 319 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,000 or something like you've had like very, very, very, very, very low investment in mining 320 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,600 and you how what would it take to find like a block every like five minutes 321 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:44,200 or something like that? 322 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,880 So what I mean is I'm cutting it way, way, way down. 323 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,560 And there's going to be a lot of chaos at the moment of the fork. 324 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:50,520 Probably a lot of right. 325 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:54,120 I mean, won't won't just a bunch of miners rev up a few older ASICs? 326 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,280 And then basically my that's what I'm hoping will happen. 327 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,520 Because I don't know what the it's a cost benefit analysis. 328 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,360 And I don't you know, if you hit it too high, you'll never find any blocks. 329 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:07,520 And it could like kill the project on its first day when it's getting a lot of attention 330 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,720 and maybe a lot of so it has to be much better to have too many blocks 331 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,680 than too few in this case. 332 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:18,440 I don't think there's anything bad at all about like the finding like two or three 333 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:20,520 thousand blocks in like one day. 334 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:22,240 It just means the difficulty will ramp up. 335 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,480 You got to find the equilibrium somehow. 336 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,760 And what is the situation in which you have like two miners 337 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,960 basically just orbiting each other's chains? 338 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:35,160 You could, but I think that is not. 339 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,760 Well, yeah, first of all, there will be like full display, like as I've just said, 340 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,040 like I expect chaos, like the week of the fork. 341 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,720 So it will not six confirmations will not be enough. 342 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,120 And it will have you kind of have to wait. 343 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:51,480 Really, the network will be unusable until, you know, the until hash rate stabilizes. 344 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:57,640 And there's something like one every ten, between 30 and three minutes. 345 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,440 But but it will, you know, I'm not sure. 346 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,800 Theoretically, yes, it makes it easier for but it depends on how many people get involved. 347 00:17:06,120 --> 00:17:09,560 So if a lot of people are getting involved, they may try to reorg each other. 348 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:15,000 Think about even though from a block's point of view, it might look completely insane. 349 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,440 But from a human point of view, I don't think it really will look that insane. 350 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,760 It will be like a really weird day and then maybe another second really weird day 351 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:29,840 during which you will probably not like you won't reliably count yourself as having received money for, 352 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,840 you know, you'll be like, I need to wait like until whatever, until Friday or something, 353 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,600 you know, to make sure that this because this is just the network is in a bizarre state right now. 354 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:38,000 It's just coming into existence. 355 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,720 And so, you know, it will be strange, but it won't be. 356 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:45,600 It won't it's not like it'll be like ruined for months. 357 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,000 It'll just be like this weird piece of time. 358 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,320 And eventually someone will jump like, you know, whatever, like five hundred thousand blocks ahead. 359 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,880 And it may be sad, but I do think usually the proof of work works just fine, 360 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:02,960 where usually people just shrug and they say, well, we gave it a try, but it's time to fold 361 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:08,840 because if we fold and join the longest chain right now, we can just we can go back to finding blocks on it. 362 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,200 So I think it will work out because of Satoshi's design is very good. 363 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:17,520 But we'll find out that we'll be pushing it, obviously, to some extreme in this particular case. 364 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:23,640 Well, so on that last note, I have to ask, I mean, are you going to be doing outreach to mining pools and miners 365 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,920 trying to get support for mining this thing? 366 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,240 I think that actually that is sort of the tail wagging the dog, right? 367 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,360 Like people tried to do that before and they didn't succeed at all. 368 00:18:33,360 --> 00:18:39,920 And I told them so this was back in SegWit2x and I told, you know, it's very bizarre with SegWit2x. 369 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:44,440 If that had been a soft fork with 83 percent of the hash power, it would have certainly succeeded 370 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:48,400 and there would have been nothing that the and so the entire scaling war would have been a completely different outcome. 371 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,040 But instead, they tried to do this hard fork and they try to say, we'll get commitments from people. 372 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:58,240 All the miners backed out because what it ends up being is it's a commitment to losing money in that particular case. 373 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:03,240 So I just think in this case, you just said you said the difficulty low so the miners can make money. 374 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:11,560 And then you try, you know, it's going to be the market price on one hand and then the difficulty, like the imputed price, 375 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,120 you know, the imputed cost from the difficulty. 376 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:21,320 So, you know, you can have two networks or one is like, you know, say, for example, let's compare BTC and Bitcoin SV. 377 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:26,760 And, you know, BTC is super, super high price, but super high difficulty. 378 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,000 So you subtract and this is the profit. 379 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,280 And then you could also have Bitcoin SV, very low price. 380 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,920 Everyone hates it, but then very low difficulty. 381 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:43,360 And then those two could have like a very similar, you know, profit margin or hash price or whatever people would be saying today. 382 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,680 And so you just have to make sure that difference is OK. 383 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:53,160 And yeah, that's the that's basically the logic is like so like a commitment doesn't mean anything compared to what that number is. 384 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,360 So if that number is there, people will mine. 385 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,600 If the number is not there, people will back out of the commitment. 386 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:04,520 So the answer is kind of no, although I hope that, you know, as people find out about it, some miners are like the contact with questions. 387 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:10,400 They say, what algorithm is this, which is the same as Bitcoin, SHA256D and stuff like that. 388 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,560 So I think but it will all be driven by, you know, the price. 389 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:28,560 And if there's an actual if there's actual value to this to this idea or any of the arguments or if there's people believe me that a competitor to Bitcoin is important and valuable thing to help make sure that we're not, you know, making too many mistakes that we never correct in BTC world. 390 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:31,720 One last question about the details. 391 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:32,760 It looks like yes. 392 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,360 So you tweet you have, quote, seven Drivechains in development right now. 393 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:42,240 You kind of gave a little teaser, you know, like a Zcash styles Drivechain, like a prediction markets Drivechain. 394 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,280 You've been a big prediction markets guy for a long time. 395 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:46,880 Great to see that very, very validated today. 396 00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:50,280 They're just not really on block chains necessarily. 397 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:51,120 Right. Yes. 398 00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:51,960 I wanted to change that. 399 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:59,840 And so what I proposed for prediction markets back in 2013, it was much better in many ways than what you have today with calcium Polymarket. 400 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:01,960 I'm actually multidimensional markets. 401 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:09,800 First of all, also, you know, everyone can thank me for the automated market makers or stuff that was invented by Robin Hanson, who wrote a paper in 2002. 402 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,400 But almost no one on the Internet could understand this paper. 403 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,720 And I had to scour the Internet for alternate explanations. 404 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,760 But he invented and so did Max Keiser. 405 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:23,040 Max Keiser had a different version that he called the virtual specialists in the 90s. 406 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:29,440 But it was Robin Hanson's logarithmic market scoring rule and this cross product market scoring rule. 407 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:35,520 I put that in the Truthcoin white paper, which was about Bitcoin prediction markets in 2013, 2014. 408 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:41,920 And then I was showing that around to the people at the time like this was like Dan Larimer or Vitalik Buterin or whatever. 409 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,120 And that's how it escaped containment and made it into Ethereum and got big. 410 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,040 So a lot of this stuff is suggested by me. 411 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:59,040 But yeah, the cool thing that I also wrote into the Truthcoin white paper was the decentralized oracle, which is a problem that a lot of people thought could not possibly be solved because it's an incentive where 412 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,680 everyone has a reason to lie about the outcome. 413 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,680 So you can trade against the real outcome and just extract all the money. 414 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,360 So there's a situation where you don't know how many people there are and everyone has an incentive to lie. 415 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,920 But I wrote this paper about the peer to peer oracle. 416 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,600 And even we had old people, you know, we had. 417 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:24,080 So if you go to BitcoinHiveMind.com, I still have the very old endorsements up there from 2015, which are like Peter Todd, Andrew Polstra. 418 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,320 We got like Roger Veres up there. 419 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:34,960 So it's like so you can see I was very proud of achieving that because this is the truly decentralized prediction market that can't be shut off. 420 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:41,320 And this can hit some this could hit some categories that are too taboo even for Cauchy and Polymarket to hit. 421 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:42,760 And they would just live immortally. 422 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,000 So that was what I proposed a long time ago. 423 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,320 So this is another reason why I'm kind of like sitting around and you're looking at Bitcoin. 424 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,520 Now, of course, Bitcoin has done very, very, very well. 425 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,640 You know, the price has skyrocketed. 426 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,000 We have changed the world. 427 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:57,040 We've changed the culture. 428 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:02,000 We have the president coming to speak in 2024 at the conference. 429 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:04,800 So we've changed a lot. 430 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,080 You know, we've we've been a big success. 431 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:12,120 But really, there's all this other stuff that we could be doing, like whatever happened to the Namecoin project. 432 00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:16,000 And then this is fractured into other stuff, you know, like what's it called? 433 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,320 Like I forget, but there's many different ones like Handshake. 434 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:20,040 Right. Isn't that one? 435 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,080 And even like Michael Saylor tried to do decentralized identity with Orange. 436 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:30,560 But then he realized, oh, he realized, you know, he showed up and he was like, he thought this was a real technology industry where people did things. 437 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,360 But then he looked around and he was like, oh, I'm not supposed to do anything here. 438 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:34,640 This is part of the problem. 439 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:40,840 Yeah. OK, so I got to throw a couple hard questions in because you said, you know, people are afraid to talk about the taboo. 440 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,880 Let's talk about the money, because there are investors in this. 441 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:47,440 You did pass the hat around. 442 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:49,720 Right. There's people who are invested in the fork. 443 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,760 Can you talk about this? 444 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,440 Can you talk about the reason, rationale and your mindset behind raising money? 445 00:23:55,440 --> 00:24:04,040 And then, of course, you're forking and giving out the eCash tokens that would otherwise have gone to Satoshi. 446 00:24:04,360 --> 00:24:05,200 Discuss this. 447 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:10,920 Yes. Yeah, this has been like a huge like people are very, very interested in this. 448 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,280 And some of them seem to think it's like some huge knockdown argument. 449 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:21,880 So one thing to emphasize is we have a second version that does not have any financing and does not reassign any coins. 450 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,600 And it doesn't absolutely none of these things. 451 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,840 And it still brings all of the same L2 technology to Bitcoin. 452 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:33,440 And it doesn't actually change Bitcoin into a hard fork. 453 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,720 And it doesn't involve any code changes in Bitcoin Core. 454 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,240 That second version is just what BIP300 is. 455 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,320 That's what BIP300 is, spend the whole time. 456 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,840 So there's this alternative this whole time. 457 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:55,760 Now, I think part of it also, as you can see, I knew from the block size war that doing the fork involves a lot of people weighing in with their opinion who have no skin in the game. 458 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:56,640 And it is. 459 00:24:56,925 --> 00:24:58,925 It is an upset. It does disturb, you know, you're a disturber of the peace. 460 00:24:58,925 --> 00:25:07,925 It's like when Gandalf is labeled the disturber of the peace at the beginning of Lord of the Rings and the little farm guys mad at all the kids want the fireworks and that type of thing. 461 00:25:07,925 --> 00:25:11,925 Yeah. So it's like you've been labeled. That's exactly what has happened, of course. 462 00:25:11,925 --> 00:25:15,925 So there's the thing about that is there's a kind of stigma for supporting the fork. 463 00:25:15,925 --> 00:25:31,925 And I knew that we had to change reality, like even if we just changed the reality and we set the precedent that says, if you try to improve Bitcoin, because right now the precedent is if you try to improve Bitcoin, you go to up next and then people write an article that says, don't break Bitcoin. 464 00:25:31,925 --> 00:25:34,925 And but nothing happens. And it's really miserable. 465 00:25:35,925 --> 00:25:42,925 And like people like Jeremy Rubin also, they put out CTV activation client and then he quit after a day and he quit. 466 00:25:42,925 --> 00:25:47,925 Not only did he quit CTV, but he quit all software. He quit all Bitcoin development. 467 00:25:47,925 --> 00:25:51,925 So far as I know, he quit all computer science development for like a year and a half. 468 00:25:52,925 --> 00:26:08,925 And then he so like it's we have to change that so that it says, as the story more goes, if you propose an idea for Bitcoin that has some merit in the world where you have some possibility of adding value, then you can get millions of dollars. 469 00:26:08,925 --> 00:26:20,925 So that's part of the flip. And it's also partly to say like these people who are haters, they are not you know, it's there's a big difference between people putting their money around. 470 00:26:20,925 --> 00:26:34,925 Because like what makes a good investment is it has to look like a bad investment, but it has to be a good idea, because if everyone knows that it's a good idea, you know, it's like people say like this is like people would come up to me from time to time and they'd say this has nothing to do with Bitcoin. 471 00:26:34,925 --> 00:26:39,925 But it's like, oh, they asked for my advice with investing because I know I have like a background in economics, like as if that's going to help. 472 00:26:39,925 --> 00:26:45,925 But they say like, oh, like I love Apple, so I'm going to buy some Apple stock or something. 473 00:26:45,925 --> 00:26:48,925 Or they say, oh, I think Elon is smart, but it doesn't matter. 474 00:26:48,925 --> 00:26:51,925 This is just like with the difficulty in the market price. 475 00:26:51,925 --> 00:26:55,925 The current stock price could maybe be too high on a popular company. 476 00:26:55,925 --> 00:27:00,925 And then many unpopular companies that might be on death's door, there might be a buy because the price is so low. 477 00:27:01,925 --> 00:27:08,925 So to make the investment good, it has to appear unpopular and it has to appear unpopular, but actually have a lot of merit. 478 00:27:08,925 --> 00:27:12,925 So that is partially like on purpose, I think. 479 00:27:12,925 --> 00:27:14,925 Wait, hang on. 480 00:27:14,925 --> 00:27:23,925 So are you maybe I'm misconstruing this, but you're saying part of the reason why you want to dole out the eCash equivalent of Satoshi's coins is because it's unpopular. 481 00:27:23,925 --> 00:27:25,925 Well, you look at how it like it triggered people. 482 00:27:25,925 --> 00:27:27,925 It got everyone to talk about it. 483 00:27:28,925 --> 00:27:30,925 Sorry, just to interject one more time. 484 00:27:30,925 --> 00:27:34,925 Can you understand why a lot of people are uncomfortable with this part of the proposal? 485 00:27:34,925 --> 00:27:41,925 Because ultimately, the eCash tokens are the private property of whoever owns those coins, right? 486 00:27:41,925 --> 00:27:42,925 And we're just saying Satoshi. 487 00:27:42,925 --> 00:27:44,925 Precisely. No, I do understand why. 488 00:27:44,925 --> 00:27:48,925 And I even understand why everyone uses the phrase steal Satoshi's coins. 489 00:27:48,925 --> 00:27:50,925 I'll defend you with that one. 490 00:27:50,925 --> 00:27:54,925 I mean, technically, but it's like people think that it's the Bitcoin. 491 00:27:54,925 --> 00:27:56,925 People think that it's the Bitcoin. 492 00:27:56,925 --> 00:28:03,925 Well, let me fully flesh this out, because obviously this has been people have been like so obsessed more than I could have ever. 493 00:28:03,925 --> 00:28:12,925 I mean, I thought that there would be some element of this, but I had no idea that this would be like the huge thing that would like send this into like millions of commentary. 494 00:28:12,925 --> 00:28:16,925 So it's true that we're not actually taking any Satoshi's coins. 495 00:28:16,925 --> 00:28:22,925 And I suppose it's theoretically true that I could probably sue people for slander because it's like they're accusing me of a criminal act or so. 496 00:28:22,925 --> 00:28:24,925 Not that I would care enough to do that. 497 00:28:24,925 --> 00:28:31,925 But there's a sense in which they are right, because in Bitcoin, we don't people in Bitcoin. 498 00:28:31,925 --> 00:28:34,925 We don't think of Bitcoin as purely. 499 00:28:34,925 --> 00:28:40,925 I'm not sure how to phrase this, but it's kind of like we assert that we assert something about the common good with Bitcoin. 500 00:28:40,925 --> 00:28:45,925 Like a lot of people see Bitcoin as like a common civilization wide project. 501 00:28:45,925 --> 00:28:50,925 And so it's not just like, oh, Paul does this, whatever. 502 00:28:50,925 --> 00:28:52,925 Like Chris does this. Jeff does the whatever. 503 00:28:52,925 --> 00:28:56,925 You know, and it's like there's this idea of what's best for everyone. 504 00:28:56,925 --> 00:28:58,925 And it's kind of like a political party. 505 00:28:58,925 --> 00:29:06,925 They don't just say usually a political party doesn't just say, like, vote for us because we're going to steal everyone else's stuff and give it to. 506 00:29:06,925 --> 00:29:09,925 They often do this sometimes, but they don't say like that. 507 00:29:09,925 --> 00:29:14,925 A political party's message is that they are they are advocating for the public good. 508 00:29:14,925 --> 00:29:18,925 They're saying life would be better if we. 509 00:29:18,925 --> 00:29:20,925 Improve the roads or whatever. 510 00:29:20,925 --> 00:29:23,925 So this is a sense in which is right is what I'm saying. 511 00:29:23,925 --> 00:29:30,925 Life would be better if we switched tracks to this track where Satoshi has hundreds of thousands of fewer coins. 512 00:29:30,925 --> 00:29:33,925 So there's a sense in which they are right. 513 00:29:33,925 --> 00:29:36,925 But there are also many senses in which it's like the perfect idea. 514 00:29:36,925 --> 00:29:40,925 So, I mean, at one point, there's another issue to bring up is that. 515 00:29:40,925 --> 00:29:49,925 So, like, after I just say there's some merit to what they say, there's also there's also like at least two more senses in which there's absolutely no merit to what they say whatsoever. 516 00:29:49,925 --> 00:29:52,925 So the two of them would be this. 517 00:29:52,925 --> 00:29:56,925 One is that they kind of these first of all, these people are presenting themselves. 518 00:29:56,925 --> 00:30:01,925 Many of them are saying something like, well, this idea is perfect, except for this one flaw. 519 00:30:01,925 --> 00:30:02,925 Taking Satoshi's coins. 520 00:30:02,925 --> 00:30:06,925 What we know perfectly well, these people would have criticized BIP300. 521 00:30:06,925 --> 00:30:07,925 They probably would have criticized OP_CAT. 522 00:30:07,925 --> 00:30:09,925 They would have criticized like Operturn. 523 00:30:09,925 --> 00:30:12,925 Some of these people just criticize all kinds of stuff. 524 00:30:12,925 --> 00:30:16,925 They would have hated any hard fork under any circumstances. 525 00:30:17,925 --> 00:30:29,925 And so the premise that they would, you know, what they're what they're representing is like as if the project would be improved and they would become a supporter. 526 00:30:29,925 --> 00:30:34,925 If I if I just change this one part back, I think we know that that's completely untrue. 527 00:30:34,925 --> 00:30:40,925 And the fact that they even talk as if it's true, I think it says a lot about like how poorly thought out like with their own positions. 528 00:30:40,925 --> 00:30:43,925 But speaking of that, my second point, I mean, I have more points even than that. 529 00:30:43,925 --> 00:30:48,925 But the second point is that these people are kind of they want to have it both ways. 530 00:30:48,925 --> 00:30:51,925 They want to say, well, this is a worthless fork that everyone should ignore. 531 00:30:51,925 --> 00:30:56,925 It's going to be worth zero, in which case Satoshi doesn't lose anything at all. 532 00:30:56,925 --> 00:31:02,925 The coins they have to equivocate on how valuable they think this property is that I'm supposedly depriving Satoshi of. 533 00:31:02,925 --> 00:31:07,925 They think, oh, this fork is going to be a huge success and all this is going to be worth a ton of money. 534 00:31:07,925 --> 00:31:10,925 And then it's like, oh, that's what Satoshi is losing. 535 00:31:10,925 --> 00:31:12,925 So these people kind of want to have it all the different ways. 536 00:31:12,925 --> 00:31:14,925 It's just an example of how just people complain. 537 00:31:14,925 --> 00:31:20,925 And, you know, I think everyone should emulate this task instead of launching new altcoins. 538 00:31:20,925 --> 00:31:28,925 We should have lots of this is cuts the splits the difference between like privatizing the sidechain, which is like what an altcoin does. 539 00:31:28,925 --> 00:31:35,925 And they say, well, launch this, you know, something like a Solana or whatever, where A16Z has like 20 percent of the whole supply. 540 00:31:35,925 --> 00:31:39,925 But Bitcoiners get nothing. We should do this more in Bitcoin. 541 00:31:39,925 --> 00:31:47,925 I'm trying to set the example that we should do this because, you know, we have the situation where all Bitcoiners get free coins, including Satoshi. 542 00:31:47,925 --> 00:31:51,925 Everyone gets free stuff. And then the founder has some reason. 543 00:31:51,925 --> 00:31:53,925 But there are even more reasons for that as to why I did it. 544 00:31:53,925 --> 00:31:56,925 Some of them are that the hard fork is very hard. You have to coordinate people in advance. 545 00:31:56,925 --> 00:32:00,925 The network effects are very strong. You need to hit the ground running with like a new team. 546 00:32:00,925 --> 00:32:03,925 Like kind of on day one, you want to have all the software. 547 00:32:03,925 --> 00:32:06,925 Is it better to do a hard fork and say we're going to do this software later? 548 00:32:06,925 --> 00:32:11,925 When will that software be finished? And so then a lot of stuff will have happened in between. 549 00:32:11,925 --> 00:32:15,925 So there are lots and lots and lots of reasons why this was a very, very, very clever decision. 550 00:32:15,925 --> 00:32:20,925 But, yeah, it does appear superficially to go against the property rights idea of Bitcoin. 551 00:32:20,925 --> 00:32:22,925 And so that's, I think, why people have tried to latch on. 552 00:32:22,925 --> 00:32:25,925 These are people who would have criticized anything about it that they thought they could get away with. 553 00:32:25,925 --> 00:32:32,925 And so it's all yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm empathetic to the reality that you just can't have like the cold start. 554 00:32:33,925 --> 00:32:36,925 It's just impossible to have a perfect cold start to a blockchain these days. 555 00:32:36,925 --> 00:32:42,925 You can't recreate how Bitcoin emerged. Colin, I think you had another hard question. 556 00:32:42,925 --> 00:32:47,925 Yeah, I have one last hard question, Paul. So maybe this would be better as a closer. 557 00:32:47,925 --> 00:32:52,925 I'll just go ahead and throw it in. A lot of hard forks have failed. 558 00:32:52,925 --> 00:32:55,925 In fact, every single one of them. Yeah, I would agree. 559 00:32:55,925 --> 00:32:58,925 Outside of, you know, edge case early on. 560 00:32:58,925 --> 00:33:02,925 The cash is still going along, but it's but it failed in the sense of like it didn't. 561 00:33:02,925 --> 00:33:06,925 None of them replaced Bitcoin. None of them actually have anywhere close to the market share. 562 00:33:06,925 --> 00:33:09,925 You know that I already know that. And I'm trying to do it anyway. 563 00:33:09,925 --> 00:33:12,925 Right. Well, so that's why I want to ask, like, what makes you think this was going to succeed? 564 00:33:12,925 --> 00:33:15,925 And kind of a second part to this question, similar to the mining pool one. 565 00:33:15,925 --> 00:33:20,925 Are you going to be doing outreach to exchanges and market makers to assure that there is a market? 566 00:33:20,925 --> 00:33:24,925 Well, yes, a little bit. But I think. OK, well, first things first. 567 00:33:24,925 --> 00:33:33,925 So the what if we had to make a list of all the serious hard forks, I think it would only be BCH, really, because Bitcoin SV was a hard fork of BCH. 568 00:33:33,925 --> 00:33:36,925 And it was also, you know, it's crazy. Craig is a crazy person. 569 00:33:36,925 --> 00:33:39,925 And everyone, you know, everyone like it was all just a bunch of nonsense. 570 00:33:39,925 --> 00:33:47,925 But I think some of these people have later acquired teams that where they thought, well, we can make this work somehow. 571 00:33:47,925 --> 00:33:56,925 But I think Bitcoin Cash actually was something of a success in that when it launched, when it was mainstreamed, when it first came out in August. 572 00:33:56,925 --> 00:34:01,925 Not when it first came out in August, it was ignored because SegWit2x was still being done at the time. 573 00:34:01,925 --> 00:34:09,925 But then later in November, when it was like debuted, when they canceled SegWit2x, it rose to become number two on CoinMarketCap. 574 00:34:09,925 --> 00:34:15,925 And when it hit number two on CoinMarketCap, it was 15 percent of BTC's price. 575 00:34:15,925 --> 00:34:17,925 The infamous flippening event. 576 00:34:17,925 --> 00:34:21,925 Right. And that was how I got that quote that that tweet is a congrats on this. 577 00:34:21,925 --> 00:34:29,925 Seriously, that kind of became a meme for a short time after that, where people would just say congrats on this seriously about like random things, which is funny. 578 00:34:29,925 --> 00:34:36,925 So if it debuted today at 15 percent of BTC's price, which is certainly not, you know, I'm not guaranteeing that or even whatever. 579 00:34:36,925 --> 00:34:40,925 But I'm just saying if it did the exact same thing that Bitcoin Cash did, that would put it like number three. 580 00:34:40,925 --> 00:34:43,925 It would be like next to Ethereum sort of now. 581 00:34:43,925 --> 00:34:46,925 And Bitcoin Cash flippened in hashrate too. 582 00:34:46,925 --> 00:34:49,925 They were neck and neck for like a week or two there. 583 00:34:49,925 --> 00:34:53,925 Yeah. And there's a lot of stuff that went on in the background with Bitmain swapping machines over. 584 00:34:53,925 --> 00:34:56,925 And Jihan Wu supported that fork a lot. 585 00:34:56,925 --> 00:34:57,925 He did. 586 00:34:57,925 --> 00:35:00,925 I don't know if we would call that organic. 587 00:35:00,925 --> 00:35:03,925 Is that winning or is that an attempted coup? 588 00:35:03,925 --> 00:35:05,925 Right. I mean, I think that that's an open question. 589 00:35:05,925 --> 00:35:13,925 Well, I think Bitcoin Cash was, you know, I had a lot of friends who are large blockers, but I've sent emails at the time and I sent public statements. 590 00:35:13,925 --> 00:35:19,925 And I was on there was a SegWit2x list where they surveyed all these technical people to say, how do you feel about SegWit2x? 591 00:35:19,925 --> 00:35:22,925 Basically, everyone said, don't do it, including me. 592 00:35:22,925 --> 00:35:24,925 I said it wouldn't work. So I was on this list. 593 00:35:24,925 --> 00:35:29,925 This was long before this was like after it came out in like whatever, May or June 2017. 594 00:35:29,925 --> 00:35:31,925 So I was always a small blocker. 595 00:35:31,925 --> 00:35:33,925 I'm in favor of small blocks on L1. 596 00:35:33,925 --> 00:35:35,925 That's different, completely different from L2. 597 00:35:35,925 --> 00:35:38,925 So when Bitcoin Cash came out, I said, well, this is a bad idea, actually. 598 00:35:38,925 --> 00:35:43,925 Hard forking once from one megabyte to eight megabytes. 599 00:35:43,925 --> 00:35:45,925 That just kicks the can down the road. 600 00:35:45,925 --> 00:35:53,925 And so I think this is more like a BIP300 is more of like a kind of permanent idea because it's built into it. 601 00:35:53,925 --> 00:35:56,925 The idea that you have these new L2s that would compete. 602 00:35:56,925 --> 00:36:00,925 And so any idea that you might want later, you can still get within the paradigm. 603 00:36:00,925 --> 00:36:06,925 Bitcoin Cash also like it decided to just like make all these other changes. 604 00:36:06,925 --> 00:36:10,925 Let's like these assert zero bugs like, you know what I mean? 605 00:36:10,925 --> 00:36:13,925 Like they would fork Bitcoin and then they start changing every line of code. 606 00:36:13,925 --> 00:36:16,925 So someone should go back and do this research project. 607 00:36:16,925 --> 00:36:20,925 But at one point, I think it was maybe March 2018. 608 00:36:20,925 --> 00:36:26,925 I tried to look and there was something like 30,000 lines of code had been changed from Bitcoin Cash to BTC, 609 00:36:27,925 --> 00:36:33,925 including like renaming various variables were named like Blockstream, block size limit, like a silly stuff like that. 610 00:36:33,925 --> 00:36:36,925 This all this makes it really hard to do like the code diff or whatever. 611 00:36:36,925 --> 00:36:43,925 My conception is completely different where, again, I'm hard forking specifically to create a competing coin. 612 00:36:43,925 --> 00:36:48,925 But the L1 software is going to stay equivalent to Bitcoin Core. 613 00:36:48,925 --> 00:36:54,925 So I think that actually a lot of this stuff I did a little research project where you could track. 614 00:36:54,925 --> 00:37:01,925 I said, if the coins were like third parties and you just measured BTC, Ethereum and this coin. 615 00:37:02,925 --> 00:37:05,925 And then you plot them over the time that they came out. 616 00:37:06,925 --> 00:37:10,925 This is maybe a little confusing, but basically I had so as the candidate, you know, 617 00:37:10,925 --> 00:37:14,925 as the kind of like what you might call like the independent variable or whatever. 618 00:37:14,925 --> 00:37:21,925 I was like, so you either do BTC, Ethereum, Bitcoin Cash or BTC, Ethereum, Solana or like Avalanche. 619 00:37:21,925 --> 00:37:24,925 I did like a little list of coins and you can plot. 620 00:37:24,925 --> 00:37:29,925 How did they do as a percentage of the market cap over their first like year or two years? 621 00:37:29,925 --> 00:37:34,925 Bitcoin Cash does by far better than Solana, than Cardano, than all these other things. 622 00:37:34,925 --> 00:37:38,925 So even though I was not a supporter of Bitcoin Cash, I think it did do very well. 623 00:37:38,925 --> 00:37:43,925 I have a couple other points of data if you're interested, which is that one was for all. 624 00:37:43,925 --> 00:37:48,925 I think people are much louder when they want to do their little commentary. 625 00:37:48,925 --> 00:37:51,925 But really, the UTXO sets don't diverge. 626 00:37:51,925 --> 00:37:59,925 So about a year after Bitcoin Cash had hard forked, more than half of the UTXOs were the same. 627 00:37:59,925 --> 00:38:01,925 Still a year afterwards. 628 00:38:01,925 --> 00:38:05,925 And this was a year after this was like, you know, that might have been a million years afterwards 629 00:38:05,925 --> 00:38:10,925 because so many people weighed in like the same week or like right after and people are buying and selling their coins. 630 00:38:11,925 --> 00:38:16,925 It also includes a situation where maybe if you wanted to sell 10 percent of your Bitcoin Cash, for example, 631 00:38:16,925 --> 00:38:18,925 you have to split the whole UTXO. 632 00:38:18,925 --> 00:38:24,925 So it would look as though you'd split like a whole UTXO of maybe if you have seven coins there. 633 00:38:24,925 --> 00:38:26,925 But really, you only sold a little bit. 634 00:38:26,925 --> 00:38:31,925 So I really think that there's like a couple more points I could mention about that. 635 00:38:31,925 --> 00:38:38,925 But overall, I think people, the Bitcoin owner is very happy to just keep all the coins and say, 636 00:38:38,925 --> 00:38:44,925 you know what, these technologists are feuding and I'm just going to take all the coins 637 00:38:44,925 --> 00:38:49,925 and I'm going to keep them in a giant pile like Smaug the dragon and they're just going to lie on all the coins. 638 00:38:49,925 --> 00:38:58,925 So everyone's got an opinion because what the hard fork does is it says it's a hard fork is being loyal to the Bitcoin owner. 639 00:38:58,925 --> 00:39:02,925 It says, I'll give you credit for all your coins for free. 640 00:39:02,925 --> 00:39:04,925 And but what is it disloyal to? 641 00:39:04,925 --> 00:39:07,925 It's a challenge to Bitcoin core. 642 00:39:07,925 --> 00:39:10,925 It's a challenge to the media environment. 643 00:39:10,925 --> 00:39:14,925 It's saying, well, I have a culture, you know, it's saying these people, you know, 644 00:39:14,925 --> 00:39:20,925 so it's kind of an insult to Bitcoin core or at least introduces competition, which is no fun. 645 00:39:20,925 --> 00:39:25,925 Like what if I said, oh, I'm going to I told you guys I'm going to start my own like mining podcast and whatever. 646 00:39:25,925 --> 00:39:29,925 And you'd be like, well, wait, another competitor that I have to deal with. 647 00:39:29,925 --> 00:39:33,925 But but there's this difference between who is it competing with? 648 00:39:33,925 --> 00:39:38,925 And those people would obviously have some kind of problem with it, especially on the off chance that it succeeds. 649 00:39:38,925 --> 00:39:40,925 Because what would the history books say? 650 00:39:40,925 --> 00:39:43,925 Then then no one would be listening to them and everyone would listen to me. 651 00:39:43,925 --> 00:39:47,925 And I would say, well, I propose this idea in 2015 and then they didn't do it. 652 00:39:47,925 --> 00:39:50,925 And so then after I did it, I was proven right. 653 00:39:50,925 --> 00:39:54,925 And they you know, it was all a big waste of time what they were doing. 654 00:39:54,925 --> 00:40:00,925 You do bring up a good point, which I will wrap this up with, because we do. 655 00:40:00,925 --> 00:40:02,925 We have to get on to the rest of our news. 656 00:40:02,925 --> 00:40:07,925 You do present a good angle, which is it does challenge the media because I'm sitting here going like, man, 657 00:40:07,925 --> 00:40:15,925 if Paul succeeds and this fork really rips, like, can we have Paul on the podcast anymore? 658 00:40:15,925 --> 00:40:17,925 I'll keep coming back on the podcast, guys. 659 00:40:17,925 --> 00:40:19,925 Obviously. Yeah. Yeah. 660 00:40:19,925 --> 00:40:24,925 And I think that's it really does speak to I think like there's a lot of people who are good, who are critics. 661 00:40:24,925 --> 00:40:28,925 But, you know, we were at the Bitcoin conference all this past week in Vegas. 662 00:40:28,925 --> 00:40:30,925 And you're still an invited person. 663 00:40:30,925 --> 00:40:35,925 You're a you're a close, long friend of a lot, you know, in the Bitcoin community. 664 00:40:35,925 --> 00:40:38,925 So I thought it really spoke to like people's like at least, you know, 665 00:40:38,925 --> 00:40:45,925 respect for you and your efforts over the past decade now of, you know, speaking your mind, your opinions. 666 00:40:45,925 --> 00:40:50,925 I wish we had more time. I'd love to dive into the four to kill by block size of the fork. 667 00:40:50,925 --> 00:40:53,925 But unfortunately, we got to move on, Paul. 668 00:40:53,925 --> 00:40:59,925 Where can people go to find out about this fork? Rarely do I think I let a CTA happen for a hard. 669 00:40:59,925 --> 00:41:01,925 Where can people know about where you're trying to kill Bitcoin? 670 00:41:02,925 --> 00:41:07,925 Yeah. Well, yeah, there's the website. And then I'm I'm truth going on on Twitter. 671 00:41:07,925 --> 00:41:11,925 How did you get that domain? 672 00:41:11,925 --> 00:41:14,925 It was just available. I was thinking about what to name it. 673 00:41:14,925 --> 00:41:18,925 And I was just like, you know, it was a complete fluke. I thought you had the mortgage. 674 00:41:18,925 --> 00:41:25,925 I got to show a competing. No, I tell the whole story on on Joel's podcast that I recorded last. 675 00:41:25,925 --> 00:41:29,925 So I think these should hopefully end up on eCash dot com like whatever I do. 676 00:41:29,925 --> 00:41:32,925 I think I would try to put it there so that there's a repository. 677 00:41:32,925 --> 00:41:34,925 So I go into the whole story. It's just like a kind of a fluke. 678 00:41:34,925 --> 00:41:37,925 It was all available and you could just buy for a very cheap amount. 679 00:41:37,925 --> 00:41:40,925 And so that's what I did. And that's how I got the name. 680 00:41:40,925 --> 00:41:43,925 I was I had a couple of like other different names maybe in mind. 681 00:41:43,925 --> 00:41:47,925 But, yeah, so that was eCash dot com. You got to have a good name. 682 00:41:47,925 --> 00:41:50,925 And what's the other thing? Oh, the format. Yeah. 683 00:41:50,925 --> 00:41:55,925 The lowering the block size on L1. Yeah. That's to make it even more decentralized. 684 00:41:55,925 --> 00:41:59,925 Hey, it's Luke Junior approved closely. 685 00:41:59,925 --> 00:42:02,925 But you broadcast four kilobytes over ham radio. 686 00:42:02,925 --> 00:42:05,925 It wasn't that the bunker coin angle or something. 687 00:42:05,925 --> 00:42:11,925 Well, I think the idea is just just to make it so that, you know, OK, so we want cheap full node. 688 00:42:11,925 --> 00:42:14,925 And we want like it to be easier to hide the physical location. 689 00:42:14,925 --> 00:42:17,925 So there are many benefits of smaller block size. 690 00:42:17,925 --> 00:42:22,925 And since I'm giving people access to unlimited L2 block size, we really don't need, you know, 691 00:42:22,925 --> 00:42:25,925 you get people look at like the gold window or something like that. 692 00:42:25,925 --> 00:42:29,925 Or how many transactions Bank of International Settlements does versus the Fed, 693 00:42:29,925 --> 00:42:32,925 versus like, you know, Bank of America or something or versus Chase Manhattan. 694 00:42:32,925 --> 00:42:35,925 So we really don't need that. 695 00:42:35,925 --> 00:42:38,925 This is the issue is you kind of people again, people want to have it both ways. 696 00:42:38,925 --> 00:42:44,925 They want to say the large blockers say, oh, L1 should be, you know, everyone should transact on L1. 697 00:42:44,925 --> 00:42:51,925 That's that's actually makes the full node very expensive and difficult to hide physical location, et cetera, et cetera. 698 00:42:51,925 --> 00:42:55,925 But then people say, oh, people should transact on L2s. 699 00:42:55,925 --> 00:42:57,925 Well, yeah, that's that's what I believe. 700 00:42:57,925 --> 00:42:59,925 So we actually don't need when you settle on L1. 701 00:42:59,925 --> 00:43:03,925 That's kind of like, you know, when you go to the airport and you swap your dollars for euros or something. 702 00:43:03,925 --> 00:43:07,925 You don't do that as often as when you actually pay on L2s. 703 00:43:07,925 --> 00:43:14,925 So when you pay today, like, you know, if you pay in America, it's like inside the Fed system. 704 00:43:14,925 --> 00:43:20,925 That that's just like most of you don't have like an account at the Federal Reserve or the Bank of International Settlements. 705 00:43:20,925 --> 00:43:21,925 Normal people don't need much. 706 00:43:21,925 --> 00:43:25,925 They're effectively on layer three or layer four like their whole lives. 707 00:43:25,925 --> 00:43:26,925 You know what I mean? 708 00:43:26,925 --> 00:43:30,925 Like they just join the commercial bank at layer three and then they just stay there. 709 00:43:30,925 --> 00:43:38,925 They don't need to, like, have an account at what would be L1, which would be like the Bank of International Settlements or something like that. 710 00:43:38,925 --> 00:43:41,925 So that's kind of part of the thinking behind that. 711 00:43:41,925 --> 00:43:47,925 Paul Sztorc, thank you so much for coming on the show to talk about the Stork fork. 712 00:43:47,925 --> 00:43:48,925 Thanks for having me. 713 00:43:48,925 --> 00:43:52,925 CleanSpark is a market leading data center developer with a proven track record of success. 714 00:43:52,925 --> 00:43:54,925 NASDAQ CLSK.