1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:19,480 Can we talk about how crazy it's getting where people feel the need to change what they believe 2 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:24,520 or what they say based on this tremendous polarization of the communities where you 3 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:29,680 can't even just sit down at a table with someone without there being a kind of complicated 4 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:35,600 stressful drawing of boundary lines or something like that around the conversation. 5 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:41,320 So I mean, that's something that's really disappointed me that the community has split 6 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:47,520 and each side kind of writes the other off completely and I don't really support any 7 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:48,920 of that. 8 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:53,000 So that's one thing we could talk about, but we could just talk about anything. 9 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:54,000 Let's do it. 10 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:59,800 So yeah, I think the polarization takes too much of an extreme. 11 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,560 I think people need to look at the bigger picture. 12 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:08,960 At the same time, it's something we see in societies and politics across the board. 13 00:01:08,960 --> 00:01:15,080 People like to get polarized and I think it's good to remind each other what we're really 14 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:19,240 here for and that really we have more things in common than not. 15 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:23,880 So we certainly shouldn't be that angry at each other, I think, in many cases and this 16 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:28,160 is really damaging everyone when we attack each other and, you know. 17 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:34,240 Yeah, well, I think that people do it because there's a reason. 18 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:35,240 It does work. 19 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:42,040 Well, as you say, first of all, it's just math, like if a bunch of people have a dispute 20 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:48,760 and one side gangs up and forms a big group, then the other side has to, you know, a well-organized 21 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,340 large group will just crush a series of smaller groups. 22 00:01:52,340 --> 00:01:57,500 So you're doomed if you don't team up because teamwork is important. 23 00:01:57,500 --> 00:02:05,940 But I think also it's kind of like the, it works for people, like an easy way to make 24 00:02:05,940 --> 00:02:11,300 friends and to show people that you care about them, a very cheap way is of showing that 25 00:02:11,300 --> 00:02:14,500 you care about other people is to make fun of their enemies, especially when the enemies 26 00:02:14,500 --> 00:02:17,280 are nowhere around, you know, nowhere to be seen. 27 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,240 And so it does work a little bit. 28 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,680 In a strange way, you're right, this is an inevitable thing. 29 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:28,600 It's well documented that whenever there's not, if there's an external threat, people 30 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:29,600 come together. 31 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:34,640 But if you go long enough without a war, eventually, like it becomes internal again. 32 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:39,520 And that it's kind of depressing to see that happen to Bitcoin because I think there were 33 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:45,960 a couple opportunities for better ideas to just solve the problems. 34 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:52,640 But unfortunately, we just missed some of those opportunities, I think, a couple years 35 00:02:52,640 --> 00:02:53,640 ago. 36 00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:57,760 And then once it started to get very bad, it's now on an endless, I remember writing 37 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:02,040 in 2015, about July 2015 about this. 38 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:06,840 And I said, yeah, it started bad and now it's gotten much, much worse and it will only get 39 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,240 worse as time goes on. 40 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:13,480 And all kinds of people would tell me like, it can't get any worse than it already is. 41 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:19,000 And then it's like not even close, it's just continued to get worse and worse and worse. 42 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:26,040 That was way before Mike Hearn quit, it was way before Roger Ver splintered off with Brian 43 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:30,360 Armstrong and before the altcoin explosion. 44 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:35,160 So yeah, so I don't know how bad it can possibly get. 45 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:40,560 But definitely, why would it, you know, it won't stop getting bad until either there's 46 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:46,320 some kind of cooperation stimulus or some kind of force or something like that. 47 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:47,960 But these are kind of lofty thing. 48 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:55,160 I mean, I guess practical advice for anyone who sees this is to just try to keep in mind 49 00:03:55,160 --> 00:04:00,840 how wrong everyone is about almost everything that they say and do just as human beings 50 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:10,280 and that we're all fallible and that you can use each community as a source of ideas 51 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:17,240 and of criticisms of ideas and that you shouldn't just give up on that because that is a valuable 52 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:18,240 thing. 53 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:23,080 And you're just giving up on science if you just kind of team up like this. 54 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:28,600 Is there something about maximalism and fundamentalism and all of that? 55 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,280 Let's get into maximalism next. 56 00:04:31,280 --> 00:04:36,720 But I think before that, I think, so polarization does happen and this is somewhat of a natural 57 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:38,480 occurrence in human societies. 58 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:46,120 But I think if the danger there in polarization is people put on blinders and get tunnel vision 59 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:54,160 and the demonization and all these type of things is not really conductive to finding 60 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:55,800 truth, I think. 61 00:04:55,800 --> 00:05:02,200 And what I would urge people to do is really try to think for yourself, have an open mind 62 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:09,520 and look at everyone's different views and see for yourself what makes sense. 63 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:11,560 And that's the part that worries me. 64 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:18,280 I think we all need to really be reminded of the bigger picture and actually look at 65 00:05:18,280 --> 00:05:25,120 both sides and also don't just attack the other side, try to understand the other side's 66 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,920 point of view better and then learn something from it. 67 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,520 I think that is a greater goal. 68 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:38,600 There's a second thing actually that in a converse way, one of the worst things is that 69 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:45,040 it actually prevents real criticism from taking place because all the criticism that 70 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:50,840 takes place is just, you know, very low effort or sort of low brow. 71 00:05:50,840 --> 00:05:56,520 And so, it then makes it so that something like, you know, I don't think that when like 72 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:02,520 now something like, I mean, there are a lot of examples but I think one salient one would 73 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:08,200 be the lightning network was when it was invented, it was just a really great idea. 74 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:12,440 But now, in one side says that it's this horrible thing that's invading and ruining 75 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:17,080 or doing something question mark and kind of not really totally fleshed out. 76 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:21,840 But then on the other side, it's held up as this thing that is kind of completely above 77 00:06:21,840 --> 00:06:28,080 criticism of any kind and you don't, you really don't want anything to be above criticism 78 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:34,840 because that is what happened to the Roman Empire and Alan Greenspan and George Lucas 79 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:39,480 when he made the Star Wars episode one prequel, you know, everyone just thought they were 80 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:44,120 afraid to tell him that these ideas were bad, you know, because he was George Lucas. 81 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:50,800 And it's kind of similar, I mean, in a way, yeah, people criticize Blockstream as though 82 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:57,760 it's this horrible place but then on the other side, it's kind of like they can't do anything 83 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:02,040 wrong at all, you know, and it's like that is not a recipe for success, the criticisms 84 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:03,040 are good. 85 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:09,240 You want, not only do you want to not attack people but you actually want, it's no good 86 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,800 to have a bunch of supporters who are just mindlessly attacking the other side either 87 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:20,480 because they are preventing you from obtaining the knowledge that you need in order to continue 88 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:25,320 the process of improvement, so criticism is also good. 89 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,360 Criticism and optimism are good. 90 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:32,440 You want a lot of those two ingredients, those are very good ingredients. 91 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:37,160 I think you mentioned scientific thinking and it's not science if you don't allow yourself 92 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,160 to be disproved in some way. 93 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:45,240 And I think this is what we're seeing is also it's a lot of what I would associate with 94 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:56,200 cult-like behavior in that people group together, you know, the self-righteousness, the demonization 95 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:00,160 of the other side, you know, I mean, this in many ways is very damaging and we can all 96 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,080 afford to have a much more open mind. 97 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,160 I think the reason we're talking, we're kind of spending a lot of time on this and I don't 98 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,440 know, we have like no schedule and nothing is planned, this is all just whatever. 99 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:13,640 But I think, you know, this is a very deep mistake, you know, if there's some bug in 100 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,800 code or something, it can be fixed and so any number of people could fix it but this 101 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:25,520 is something that is very, it shuts off the pathway to correction for both communities 102 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:32,040 and it just stays off like maybe forever in the worst case scenario because something 103 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:37,520 else would happen that would be better, a better idea than Bitcoin or Bitcoin Cash and 104 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:43,480 I don't know what form that could take but, you know, it's definitely not impossible, 105 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:48,800 you know, it's definitely a possibility that something, you know, something using a totally 106 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,200 different strategy like Ripple could make inroads with something. 107 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:58,880 And I don't really believe that that is likely to happen but the point is if an idea stays 108 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:04,560 static for long enough, eventually some improvements will be made and if they can't make any progress 109 00:09:04,560 --> 00:09:09,320 in either of the two communities then eventually, you know, it's only a matter of, you know, 110 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:18,480 you cannot sustain a static piece of technology for a very long time. 111 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:20,320 Let's talk about that. 112 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:26,040 You're famously known as a Bitcoin maximalist and, you know, my counterpoint to that is 113 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:31,880 I really, I think the most free, you know, we can be in such system as having a plurality 114 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:37,040 of choice and I think that different people are going to make different choices based 115 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:43,560 on their own ideology and I think that's really a positive thing that allows us to have a 116 00:09:43,560 --> 00:09:49,040 free market of currencies and in many ways that's something we should aspire to, to, 117 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:54,200 you know, have confidence in the systems we believe in and, you know, believe that they 118 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:55,480 can compete. 119 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,560 I think that's incredibly important. 120 00:09:58,560 --> 00:10:05,560 Yes, so I think I did write on my blog which is Truthcoin.info, I wrote an essay called 121 00:10:05,560 --> 00:10:10,680 Bitcoin post-maximalism which is kind of an update, sort of like where I kind of say like 122 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:15,520 where did it, because it's still mostly believe it but I sort of am saying like it's a very 123 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:19,000 nuanced point so that's why you should probably read the whole thing but I kind of say like 124 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:27,800 is this point really faltering but the interesting thing about my version of Bitcoin maximalism 125 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:33,320 is that it was always paired to sidechains like very explicitly the whole time, you know, 126 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:39,000 since the idea was proposed in really in like December 2013 or something and kind of got 127 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:46,520 at steam and I didn't really kind of understand a lot of it until, but like the October 2014 128 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:52,160 paper from the Blockstream guys that kind of put it, made sure that it would be on the 129 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,040 map of people's thinking at least in 2014. 130 00:10:55,040 --> 00:11:01,200 So my version was always paired with sidechains and, yes, I'm like a very Hayekian person, 131 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:08,200 I'm like super Frederick Hayek and like student of Karl Popper and all that kind of free experimentation 132 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:09,200 type thing. 133 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:10,480 So I completely endorse all of that. 134 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:15,040 I just assumed that we'd have this, you could make Bitcoin kind of universal and you could 135 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:19,800 let it just transform into other things and it would still be the same 21 million Bitcoins 136 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:26,560 but they could take any number of tradeoffs and it's surprising to me that that view has 137 00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:29,560 ended up having a very hard time. 138 00:11:29,560 --> 00:11:34,040 Many people subscribe to it in private or they come up to me like one-on-one or if I'm 139 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:40,320 just talking to them in a loud restaurant, they kind of endorse it and then they'll 140 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:44,960 have some kind of caveat like, but we should do it slowly and carefully or something like 141 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:45,960 that. 142 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:47,520 It doesn't really click for people. 143 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,200 The way it clicks for me is that this should just be number one priority. 144 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,280 We should have done this as soon as possible. 145 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:57,160 I don't know why everyone isn't just working on this, especially when scaling debate got 146 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:58,160 big. 147 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:03,760 You could have just said, well, grand compromise while the fees are still low, we'll make the 148 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:09,400 second thing and you can just jump ship if you want, whenever you want and then the problem 149 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,240 would have been solved. 150 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:16,080 And so, I don't see why it's not priority number one. 151 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,640 There's a lot of people kind of admit that it's, but there are various people have different 152 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:27,240 hangups like the fact that sidechains have a slightly different, slightly different like 153 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:33,160 way of working in that normal transactions are examined one by one by this script interpreter 154 00:12:33,560 --> 00:12:41,560 but sidechain transaction has a sort of different thing where it's multiple blocks over a very 155 00:12:41,560 --> 00:12:47,560 long time in a big sequence that is kind of used to check this. 156 00:12:47,560 --> 00:12:52,520 So, it's just, I think also that various people were involved with them at a certain time 157 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:53,520 or something. 158 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,920 So, people have all these different, there's like a very long list of like six or seven 159 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,880 hangups that people have with sidechains. 160 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:05,480 But yeah, that totally tempers the Bitcoin maximalism for me. 161 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:10,240 I, in fact, I found myself fighting, I think kind of the same thing that you're talking 162 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:14,800 about where I kind of fight the idea, I almost want to coin a new phrase for it which I was 163 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,120 thinking like monochainism or something. 164 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:22,080 I was kind of trying to find what's a good phrase for this because I'm strongly against 165 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:29,520 that and I find that to be not only ridiculous but I just, it seems like how could it possibly 166 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:37,520 be the case that like everyone doesn't need to agree about everything and that is very 167 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:44,360 unreasonable and it's like people, no, nothing has ever worked that way, you know, like it's 168 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:49,880 like, okay, the people in, I don't know about the Eurozone is the best possible example 169 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:57,560 but theoretically, the people in the EU would, they would agree on all Europe related things. 170 00:13:57,560 --> 00:14:00,960 Some people in like, you know, people around the North Sea would agree on like fishing 171 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:06,560 related things for that area and then people would agree on anything that affects their 172 00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:10,920 country and then the people in, you know, here in Amsterdam would only have to agree 173 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:15,840 on things that affect the city and so, no one has ever agreed on everything kind of 174 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:20,720 globally with like a few exceptions on like, you know, property rights or something. 175 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:26,240 So that is kind of, you know, I'm against the monochainism and I think it's, but I'm 176 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:31,480 for there just being one system that manages the 21 million bitcoins because I think to 177 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:36,800 that extent, everyone does share a common interest but yeah, I don't, this is, everyone 178 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:42,000 has kind of gone crazy and the real rubric hidden beneath all of this is that you can't 179 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:47,160 tell like who has secretly invested in what and to what extent that is just totally coloring 180 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:54,240 their opinions which is, that is not a, that's an uphill battle to figure any of that out. 181 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:59,200 I think, you know, the vision you were describing and having these sidechains on Bitcoin and 182 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:03,960 that creating that freedom of competition and experimentation, I think in many ways 183 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:08,920 that's manifested itself across the cryptocurrency market as a whole. 184 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:13,000 At the same time, you know, I would have loved to have seen your ideas being implemented 185 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:19,320 in Bitcoin, you know, years ago and maybe that we haven't seen that happen is, you know, 186 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:24,040 I think that might point towards a failure of, you know, the governance of Bitcoin which 187 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:31,680 is exactly why, you know, we need multiple choices, you know, I wouldn't want, yeah and, 188 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,920 you know, and I wouldn't want to live in a world where we only have one choice because 189 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:40,120 that does not speak to me of freedom, that almost sounds totalitarian to me actually. 190 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:47,720 Yeah, there's a little bit more, I think it is equal parts irony and also a kind of inevitability 191 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:54,200 to it that if we just had this one thing then other things would not matter as much and 192 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:59,960 you'd be able to escape the one piece of software and just use a different piece of software 193 00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:04,960 and if the piece of software that you fled to was terrible then that would just be on 194 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:09,320 you and this would be a totally, you know, internalized, privatized thing. 195 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:15,680 But I think there is a kind of inevitability to it as well which is that, well, yeah, I 196 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:22,320 think the timing, you're right, the timing matters but I think there's a kind of, not 197 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:26,600 necessarily in a bad way but a lot of the people who have been managing the Bitcoin 198 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:32,360 software are like, well, you know, do we really want to just throw it to, you know, 199 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:38,480 because we feel responsible for this, whatever this thing, you know, they say like whatever 200 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:43,920 it is, like we feel responsible for this giant multi-million, multi-billion dollar project 201 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:52,640 and we want it to do well and so we don't really want to just, there's actual, I've 202 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:57,400 actually gotten correspondence and even I think as a lot of some of it is even public 203 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:02,280 where people have said, well, you know, any sidechain that we add should go through like 204 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:10,520 the BIP process and should, you shouldn't just be able to just kind of unilaterally 205 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:12,440 add one or something like that. 206 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:16,680 And what's weird is that I even agree with that in some sense but I don't think it should 207 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:21,680 go through the BIP process, I think it should just go through a very slow, deniable process 208 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:27,520 because I don't, I think it is possible to, this is a kind of a very advanced thing but 209 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:31,200 I think it is possible for sidechains to sort of interfere with each other so you can 210 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,640 like start up a nation and then quickly declare war on all the countries and then just kind 211 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,400 of like steal everyone's Bitcoin and then shut it down or something. 212 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:43,440 But I had a different thing for that which is just to make it kind of slow which I think 213 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,920 is an easier response for that. 214 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,320 But yeah, I think there's, I feel there's kind of inevitability to it as well that people 215 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:55,640 just thought and people just, you know, it's very hard because there are so many factors 216 00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:01,620 at play that it's hard to say to what extent which ones are big or which ones caused other 217 00:18:01,620 --> 00:18:07,720 ones or something but, you know, I mean it sounds like I think we agree on this and so, 218 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:16,120 you know, I'm just trying to, you know, get a version together that is useful and, you 219 00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:21,000 know, I plan on having a testnet very soon and I have, you know, I have actually a Bitcoin 220 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:26,240 core version and then I have a different version that just loads the Bitcoin cash UTXOs. 221 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:31,160 So even though it's, it doesn't really use any Bitcoin cash code but it is effectively 222 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:40,300 a Bitcoin cash version and I'd like to, you know, I hope that people kind of play around 223 00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:45,160 with it because I think the idea is very, very easy to misunderstand and I think there's 224 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:46,920 just something about it that it's just kind of new. 225 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:51,840 I think, you know, this is, it's kind of an arrogant thing to say but I think in the same 226 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:58,200 way that Bitcoin was misunderstood very frequently, I mean all the people in, big people in crypto 227 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,560 really shot down, cryptography shot down Bitcoin because they couldn't figure out like how 228 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:07,440 many bits of security it had or something like that and even then a lot of people who 229 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:13,640 are into Austrian economics or something, they thought it didn't follow regression theorem 230 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:14,720 or some of these other things. 231 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:19,680 So it's kind of like, I don't know, I hate to just, you know, because any new idea could 232 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:24,680 be a terrible idea or a good idea and I think just it's easy to misunderstand things. 233 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:29,200 But I think that this idea, when you see the testnet, it will make it a little easier to 234 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,480 understand and also I think there's just so much vaporware in the space that if anyone 235 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,880 releases anything, people will just be like a little more, disproportionately more excited 236 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:37,880 about it. 237 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:39,040 So I'm excited for that. 238 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:46,120 This idea is sort of coming in testnet form and then I hope that more people will try 239 00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:50,760 to think about how, you know, it might solve their problems because it can definitely solve 240 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:56,480 many of mine and a lot of other people's that I know and so the more people who feel this 241 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:02,480 is helpful, I think the better chance we all have of getting our problems solved. 242 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:07,720 So let's talk about that because I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about sidechains. 243 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:09,960 I don't know if you can help me understand that as well. 244 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:14,480 The way that I understand it currently is if we set up a sidechain, it does involve 245 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,000 a different trust model. 246 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,000 Yeah. 247 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:18,000 Yeah. 248 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,000 Yeah. 249 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:20,000 Yeah. 250 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:21,000 So. 251 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:22,000 Yeah. 252 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:29,000 But then you don't have the same guarantees per se that you would if it was on chain. 253 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:35,640 You know, I'm not actually sure if I, I think the assumption, the premises and the assumptions 254 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:41,480 and like the axioms I think are basically the same and I think the guarantees are really 255 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:42,480 the same. 256 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,800 It's just there's something in the middle is a little different. 257 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:51,040 So the way I have this set up is that it's very asymmetric so there's one chain that's 258 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,960 in charge of everything and then there are all these optional sidechains that are kind 259 00:20:54,960 --> 00:21:01,520 of like more like plug-ins or something but since it's a devoutly asymmetric situation 260 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:06,280 so if you had a large block sidechain, for example, if you ran a full node of that, you'd 261 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,880 have to also run a full node of Bitcoin. 262 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:10,200 You'd have them together. 263 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,480 And so whenever you make a transaction from the side, from the original mainchain into 264 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:20,960 the sidechain, the large block in this example, the large blockchain would be aware of it 265 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:27,040 immediately because as far as it's concerned, this is just one big node that has two pieces. 266 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:33,880 So transactions go in are instant but then transactions coming out are instant and perfectly 267 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:38,120 successful and perfectly just as secure as regular transactions. 268 00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:41,720 And then once you're in there, of course, there's this possibility of these atomic swaps 269 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:48,040 that are also instant and that have been kind of around for a while but haven't really taken 270 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,440 or you could use something like ShapeShift or something. 271 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:55,560 So it's just sidechains are very similar to altcoins in that you are using a completely 272 00:21:55,560 --> 00:22:02,600 different piece of software that doesn't necessarily need to have any effect on the 273 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,200 base software that you're running. 274 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,640 So they're totally distinct, yes. 275 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:07,640 Right. 276 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:12,760 So but it's because it's so distinct, it is, like I was saying, a different trust model 277 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:18,000 in that sense and it's because you don't have a full proof-of-work network guaranteeing 278 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,000 the security and the incentives of that system. 279 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:25,240 You need to construct a different set of incentives and these might be better or worse but I suppose 280 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,520 my point is that they are different. 281 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:28,520 Yes. 282 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:34,640 So everything is basically the same except when you take money back and that is the interesting 283 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,000 aspect which is that if you want to take money, which you must be able to do in order for 284 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:44,360 this to kind of really not have too much, you know, just in order for this to really 285 00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:52,080 be useful, they have to be as good as regular Bitcoin at least in an overwhelming sense. 286 00:22:52,080 --> 00:23:01,680 So the, yes, so the, sorry, the, when the money is coming back, it is allowed to go 287 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:06,800 anywhere and that is what enables the sidechain to be ignorable. 288 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:11,440 And so you need the sidechain to be ignorable otherwise this all regresses to the same fight 289 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,920 it's always been over everyone agreeing on everything. 290 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:18,200 So it just regresses to the monochainism point. 291 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:23,440 And since it's allowed to be anything, it's allowed also to just be the wrong owners or 292 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,560 just the miners just taking it for themselves or something like that. 293 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,280 And so that is really the first hangup. 294 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:30,360 People have one of two hangups. 295 00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:35,600 They say either it's, they think it's required, which it's not, excuse me, which it's not. 296 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,600 Or they say, well, then why wouldn't miners just immediately take the money and give it 297 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:40,600 to themselves? 298 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:46,580 And the answer is that it has to be, the process for coming back is very slow and laborious. 299 00:23:46,580 --> 00:23:51,620 So you have to declare exactly where you're sending the money in advance. 300 00:23:51,620 --> 00:23:56,660 And then you have to wait basically three to six months as miners upvote or downvote 301 00:23:56,660 --> 00:23:57,660 this little thing. 302 00:23:57,660 --> 00:24:02,820 So it's intended to be so difficult, it's basically like withdrawing money from Fort 303 00:24:02,820 --> 00:24:08,740 Knox or something in the United States or just like something very, very, very slow. 304 00:24:08,740 --> 00:24:12,220 And it will be apparent immediately to all sidechain users if it's wrong at any time 305 00:24:12,220 --> 00:24:15,940 because you just, as soon as the withdrawal is declared, you just have one little hash 306 00:24:16,300 --> 00:24:18,860 and you compare it to some other little hash. 307 00:24:18,860 --> 00:24:22,180 And that is, then your computer will be able to warn you. 308 00:24:22,180 --> 00:24:26,180 But again, it will only be able to warn you if you run the sidechain node. 309 00:24:26,180 --> 00:24:31,980 So there is this kind of, this, there's a kind of an assumption built in that a few 310 00:24:31,980 --> 00:24:36,060 people would care. 311 00:24:36,060 --> 00:24:38,060 But even this is not a real assumption. 312 00:24:38,060 --> 00:24:42,620 So anyway, let me finish my point, which is that this money is coming back and you, everyone 313 00:24:42,620 --> 00:24:45,580 will know immediately because it's just one hash to another hash. 314 00:24:46,220 --> 00:24:48,220 And someone might say, oh, this hash, you know, in order to figure out if the hash is 315 00:24:48,220 --> 00:24:51,220 right, you need to run a full node or you could run the node in SPV mode. 316 00:24:51,220 --> 00:24:53,620 There's lots of different, like, variations on this. 317 00:24:53,620 --> 00:25:00,460 But the point is that the speed is so low and the, that it's just kind of... 318 00:25:00,772 --> 00:25:05,292 almost impossible to believe that any, that a miner could like accidentally steal this money. 319 00:25:05,292 --> 00:25:07,332 It's like, it has to be very, very intentional. 320 00:25:07,532 --> 00:25:13,772 And this is a very slow thing that is very easy for humans to sort of check up on and make sure is correct. 321 00:25:13,972 --> 00:25:17,732 And then if it's not correct, they can just kind of right click and UASF. 322 00:25:17,732 --> 00:25:23,692 And then if the miner ever tries to follow through after the long period and actually steal the money, 323 00:25:23,692 --> 00:25:26,092 then they can just say, I reject that. 324 00:25:26,412 --> 00:25:32,692 And of course, but you see, there's a kind of, there's a lot of other layers to this, 325 00:25:32,692 --> 00:25:41,172 which is that if we need the freedom to experiment with terrible ideas that have it so that we can't, 326 00:25:41,172 --> 00:25:45,692 no one can figure out what's going on on the sidechain, at which point the miners might as well take the money. 327 00:25:45,692 --> 00:25:47,492 And so that is a desirable thing. 328 00:25:47,932 --> 00:25:55,452 And we also need the ability to kind of clean out sidechains that are kind of not worth it. 329 00:25:55,452 --> 00:25:59,892 So it's kind of like you, you have the freedom to visit like a bad webpage on the internet. 330 00:26:01,572 --> 00:26:06,612 So you don't want, it's, there's a kind of a shades of gray aspect to it where you want, 331 00:26:07,292 --> 00:26:13,252 you don't want there to be like some website on the internet that just disables the internet itself. 332 00:26:13,452 --> 00:26:19,492 So you don't want to visit a website that will shut off your internet connection as you reach a contradiction there. 333 00:26:19,692 --> 00:26:24,772 But you also don't want anyone like kind of curating the list of possible websites for you to visit, 334 00:26:24,772 --> 00:26:29,812 because you don't necessarily even know yourself which you do want to visit. 335 00:26:29,812 --> 00:26:36,012 So the security model is different, but I think if you assume that miners are selfish 336 00:26:36,012 --> 00:26:39,932 and that they want the price, they want to earn the most money in mining reward, 337 00:26:40,252 --> 00:26:43,532 the sidechain gives the miners transaction fees. 338 00:26:43,972 --> 00:26:47,812 And also by giving new abilities to the Bitcoin coin, 339 00:26:47,812 --> 00:26:53,092 they make their own, the 12.5 that they currently earn every 10 minutes. 340 00:26:53,452 --> 00:26:58,572 They make that have a higher purchasing power and it's more valuable token for them. 341 00:26:58,572 --> 00:27:04,732 And they, that is what drives their incentives more than anything, because they, that hits them completely. 342 00:27:04,732 --> 00:27:08,852 They have to pay out in, to buy electricity, they have to spend fiat. 343 00:27:09,492 --> 00:27:12,932 And so they're buying like Bitcoin call options basically in effect, 344 00:27:12,932 --> 00:27:19,652 and they really want Bitcoin's price to go up and not to go down. 345 00:27:19,692 --> 00:27:24,092 See, that's the other thing is if miners allow, you know, sidechain theft, 346 00:27:24,092 --> 00:27:31,812 or the sidechain ecosystem doesn't work out, then the price of Bitcoin may go down in that world. 347 00:27:31,812 --> 00:27:37,852 So it's, there's a lot of, it's sort of like, it is a little bit different, but it's just kind of like, 348 00:27:39,092 --> 00:27:43,012 again, I do think it's similar to original Bitcoin where it's like, oh, okay, well, maybe some, 349 00:27:43,012 --> 00:27:48,452 why would the miners mine on the longest chain if they can make more money by just mining on a chain by themselves, 350 00:27:48,452 --> 00:27:53,012 or they would get together with their friends and double spend or something. 351 00:27:53,012 --> 00:28:00,012 And, you know, and I'm not asking anyone to really believe in it either. 352 00:28:00,012 --> 00:28:05,172 I think people should try it out and watch other people try it out and just see if it works. 353 00:28:05,172 --> 00:28:11,092 It may not work, but I think, you know, I don't think people really appreciate what it would take for a theft to take place. 354 00:28:11,092 --> 00:28:16,892 It would take 51% of the hash rate, and it would take, for 51%, it would take the whole six months, 355 00:28:16,932 --> 00:28:20,372 because it's, if you have 100%, it would take three months. 356 00:28:20,372 --> 00:28:23,132 But it would take a long time, and it would be obvious to everyone. 357 00:28:23,132 --> 00:28:27,852 And it'd be plenty of time to, like, decide, you know, what to do about it, if anything. 358 00:28:27,852 --> 00:28:29,532 And this cannot be spammed. 359 00:28:29,532 --> 00:28:31,972 Like, you can only do this once per sidechain. 360 00:28:31,972 --> 00:28:35,972 But this would depend on a specific security model of that sidechain. 361 00:28:35,972 --> 00:28:43,492 Well, yeah, I have what I have in mind, but anyone could change it to do anything else. 362 00:28:44,492 --> 00:28:47,092 I kind of hope that everyone would do a similar thing, 363 00:28:47,092 --> 00:28:51,332 so that the sidechains are maximally kind of intercomparable with each other, 364 00:28:51,332 --> 00:28:58,172 so that an attack on one sidechain would be construed as an attack on all of them, 365 00:28:58,172 --> 00:29:01,132 which I think would make it a bigger disincentive to... 366 00:29:01,132 --> 00:29:03,372 That would limit experimentation. 367 00:29:03,372 --> 00:29:08,772 No, only in the, because the gate coming back, I don't intend anyone to really even use. 368 00:29:08,772 --> 00:29:12,012 In fact, the people who use it may all be miners themselves, 369 00:29:12,012 --> 00:29:19,572 because you have, in one direction, it's super simple and infinitely secure, 370 00:29:19,572 --> 00:29:22,332 just as secure as any other transaction. 371 00:29:22,332 --> 00:29:25,412 So in the one direction, there are no problems whatsoever. 372 00:29:25,412 --> 00:29:29,572 And then you have the atomic swaps, and you even have Lightning Network, 373 00:29:29,572 --> 00:29:33,532 which is identical across all sidechains and altcoins. 374 00:29:33,532 --> 00:29:37,412 So you have these atomic swaps that you can easily, 375 00:29:37,412 --> 00:29:40,732 you could have someone move 100,000 Bitcoin over, 376 00:29:40,732 --> 00:29:45,892 and then buy and sell them with other people in exchange for on-chain Bitcoin, 377 00:29:45,892 --> 00:29:49,732 and with the normal security assumptions of that just the node is working, 378 00:29:49,732 --> 00:29:53,852 and that the network is on, then you still get everything. 379 00:29:53,852 --> 00:29:59,252 And then if people want to sell, they can sell for like 99 cents on the dollar 380 00:29:59,252 --> 00:30:02,452 to like these kind of investment banker types who will collect all the money 381 00:30:02,452 --> 00:30:07,332 and then slowly walk it over during these slow withdrawals. 382 00:30:07,332 --> 00:30:11,332 So I don't anticipate anyone even really using the withdrawal part. 383 00:30:11,332 --> 00:30:19,332 It's just to establish the peg's existence beyond any of the, you know, the... 384 00:30:19,332 --> 00:30:22,652 And people will potentially stay in the sidechain in the same shape. 385 00:30:22,652 --> 00:30:24,932 Yeah, I think, well, it could go in a couple of ways. 386 00:30:24,932 --> 00:30:30,132 If people stay in the sidechain or leave, I would imagine some people, 387 00:30:30,132 --> 00:30:33,452 if people want to leave, my point is there should be a liquid market 388 00:30:33,452 --> 00:30:35,332 for these atomic swaps for them to leave, 389 00:30:35,332 --> 00:30:39,812 because anyone can make a tiny investment return. 390 00:30:39,812 --> 00:30:46,052 Yes, but some people may, there may be specialists who go over to a sidechain, 391 00:30:46,052 --> 00:30:53,052 and then they offer services or they create some kind of payment channel-like thing. 392 00:30:53,052 --> 00:30:58,172 And so you can use the service of the sidechain just by kind of going through it, 393 00:30:58,172 --> 00:31:02,612 even if none of your Bitcoin are over there. 394 00:31:02,652 --> 00:31:05,772 And so those people, if there's not enough Bitcoin on some sidechain, 395 00:31:05,772 --> 00:31:08,252 people might deposit some and then do that and charge a higher fee 396 00:31:08,252 --> 00:31:10,292 and get some kind of return that way. 397 00:31:10,292 --> 00:31:16,292 So one of the problems that I see with sidechains and also state channels 398 00:31:16,292 --> 00:31:20,172 is that it does add complexity to the user experience, 399 00:31:20,172 --> 00:31:23,572 is that this is adding steps, you know, to this. 400 00:31:23,572 --> 00:31:26,212 And I think this also depends on your view on scaling, 401 00:31:26,212 --> 00:31:31,532 but I mean, I think that we can scale on chain or at least keep up with demand. 402 00:31:31,532 --> 00:31:36,532 So in that sense, I think that Bitcoin needs to compete with systems 403 00:31:36,532 --> 00:31:39,812 that can, you know, fulfill a lot of these functions simply on chain, 404 00:31:39,812 --> 00:31:45,652 which is a better user experience and can also be very cheap. 405 00:31:45,652 --> 00:31:49,172 You know, and in that sense, I don't see, I mean, don't get me wrong, 406 00:31:49,172 --> 00:31:53,412 I see a lot of use cases where sidechains and state channels are actually great, 407 00:31:53,412 --> 00:31:56,452 really very useful for specific use cases, 408 00:31:56,452 --> 00:31:59,572 but this definitely does not cover all use cases. 409 00:31:59,572 --> 00:32:02,212 And I think user experience here is very important. 410 00:32:02,212 --> 00:32:07,932 And one of the advantages of cryptocurrency 411 00:32:07,932 --> 00:32:12,812 is that a blockchain represents a type of neutral platform 412 00:32:12,812 --> 00:32:15,852 that, you know, everyone around the world can do business with. 413 00:32:15,852 --> 00:32:21,052 And if we start to set up these interconnections and interrelationships, 414 00:32:21,052 --> 00:32:26,292 then we could face a lot of the same problems that we have in current legacy systems. 415 00:32:26,292 --> 00:32:29,932 Currently legacy systems, technologically, they could work very well, 416 00:32:29,932 --> 00:32:32,572 but the reason they don't is mainly due to politics 417 00:32:32,572 --> 00:32:34,812 and, you know, organizations not wanting to work together, 418 00:32:34,812 --> 00:32:36,532 not wanting to trust each other. 419 00:32:36,532 --> 00:32:40,132 And now that we have a blockchain, this neutral platform 420 00:32:40,132 --> 00:32:44,212 that allows everyone very easily to transact and to communicate 421 00:32:44,212 --> 00:32:46,372 and not to require trust. 422 00:32:46,372 --> 00:32:48,732 But once we start stacking layers on top of that, 423 00:32:48,732 --> 00:32:53,252 we could start seeing problems of these systems connecting to each other again 424 00:32:53,252 --> 00:32:57,212 while also worsening the user experience. 425 00:32:57,212 --> 00:32:59,692 Lightning actually being a great example of that, 426 00:32:59,692 --> 00:33:02,612 where, you know, you need to load into a hub, 427 00:33:02,612 --> 00:33:04,972 and then these hubs might not want to connect with each other 428 00:33:04,972 --> 00:33:06,572 for different political reasons, 429 00:33:06,572 --> 00:33:11,932 in many ways re-applicating the problems that we have in current financial systems. 430 00:33:11,932 --> 00:33:14,132 But of course, this does depend on your view on scaling. 431 00:33:14,132 --> 00:33:16,092 I'm personally, I think we can scale on chain 432 00:33:16,092 --> 00:33:18,292 and therefore it'd be hard to compete with that. 433 00:33:18,292 --> 00:33:19,772 But obviously, if I'm wrong about that, 434 00:33:19,812 --> 00:33:23,252 then sidechains and state channels are obviously the way to go. 435 00:33:23,252 --> 00:33:25,892 Well, I think, yeah, you said a lot of things there. 436 00:33:25,892 --> 00:33:29,812 But I think one is that the large block sidechain, 437 00:33:29,812 --> 00:33:32,412 if you just run large block sidechain, 438 00:33:32,412 --> 00:33:34,452 and then you, as I explained earlier, 439 00:33:34,452 --> 00:33:39,572 you'd have to run the tiny block mainchain in this setup. 440 00:33:39,572 --> 00:33:40,892 But, yeah, once you have that, 441 00:33:40,892 --> 00:33:46,292 then it's really no different from having just a large blockchain in general. 442 00:33:46,292 --> 00:33:48,172 You just have everyone using, you know, 443 00:33:48,332 --> 00:33:50,652 Roger Ver is giving away money on that chain, 444 00:33:50,652 --> 00:33:54,052 and then he gives people that mobile app. 445 00:33:54,052 --> 00:33:56,372 And then it's basically the same user experience. 446 00:33:56,372 --> 00:33:58,492 So I think the sidechain user experience is the same 447 00:33:58,492 --> 00:34:00,332 if you're not moving around as, 448 00:34:00,332 --> 00:34:04,132 and it would be on one large blockchain, 449 00:34:04,132 --> 00:34:07,332 large block blockchain, so it would be the same. 450 00:34:07,332 --> 00:34:10,372 But in terms of a UI perspective, I don't quite see that working 451 00:34:10,372 --> 00:34:12,692 because to have a wallet, let's say, 452 00:34:12,692 --> 00:34:14,572 and you have bitcoins in that wallet, 453 00:34:14,572 --> 00:34:17,292 and that bitcoin exists in a sidechain, 454 00:34:17,292 --> 00:34:20,212 it would be very confusing to users to label that as bitcoin 455 00:34:20,212 --> 00:34:23,572 because you cannot transact directly to another bitcoin address, 456 00:34:23,572 --> 00:34:26,372 which, again, which is the kind of complexity that I'm talking about 457 00:34:26,372 --> 00:34:28,852 that creates those problems. 458 00:34:28,852 --> 00:34:31,132 Yes, I think you're right about that, 459 00:34:31,132 --> 00:34:34,732 but you could send directly to another address within this thing. 460 00:34:34,732 --> 00:34:37,692 So you'd call it, you could call the sidechain, like, 461 00:34:37,692 --> 00:34:40,212 a gigachain or something, and it would have a giant, 462 00:34:40,212 --> 00:34:42,252 it would have gigabyte blocks or something. 463 00:34:42,252 --> 00:34:44,092 And then, but everyone would just, you know, 464 00:34:44,092 --> 00:34:46,492 Roger Ver would just tell everyone to, in this hypothetical, 465 00:34:46,492 --> 00:34:48,252 you know, I'm sort of speaking for fun here, 466 00:34:48,252 --> 00:34:50,572 but he would just tell everyone to use that app 467 00:34:50,572 --> 00:34:54,732 or the family of apps that uses that system. 468 00:34:54,732 --> 00:34:56,572 And then it would be the same. 469 00:34:56,572 --> 00:35:00,252 I mean, it's no different, I think, from the situation it is with altcoins today, 470 00:35:00,252 --> 00:35:03,892 where it's like, within the altcoin, 471 00:35:03,892 --> 00:35:06,892 there may be many apps or one or two 472 00:35:06,892 --> 00:35:09,732 that interface with the user, 473 00:35:09,732 --> 00:35:13,972 and moving among different altcoins is difficult. 474 00:35:14,012 --> 00:35:15,812 But, you know, it used to be impossible, 475 00:35:15,812 --> 00:35:19,332 and now it's much easier than it was before. 476 00:35:19,332 --> 00:35:21,212 Like, I'm kind of shocked, honestly. 477 00:35:21,212 --> 00:35:23,892 I mean, Shapeshift is very easy to use. 478 00:35:23,892 --> 00:35:29,052 A lot of the payment processors now integrate with many different coins. 479 00:35:29,052 --> 00:35:30,532 You know, you can have one where it's like, 480 00:35:30,532 --> 00:35:33,412 oh, we take Bitcoin, like Coin Monero, Bitcoin Cash, et cetera. 481 00:35:33,412 --> 00:35:38,572 So I don't think it would be that different. 482 00:35:38,572 --> 00:35:43,692 I do agree that the user experience is important, though. 483 00:35:43,692 --> 00:35:48,412 But, yeah, I think these things are hard to say. 484 00:35:48,412 --> 00:35:51,372 I mean, you say, like, it depends on your belief 485 00:35:51,372 --> 00:35:54,652 if Bitcoin can scale on-chain. 486 00:35:54,652 --> 00:35:58,572 But, again, like, the Hayekian view that I like 487 00:35:58,572 --> 00:36:02,092 is that you set in very much the Nassim Taleb view, 488 00:36:02,092 --> 00:36:04,172 which is that you try to set up the world 489 00:36:04,172 --> 00:36:06,852 so that it doesn't depend on whether or not you know something, 490 00:36:06,852 --> 00:36:09,732 because knowing things is just too difficult. 491 00:36:09,732 --> 00:36:12,132 And so you just say, well, you know, the sidechains, 492 00:36:12,132 --> 00:36:13,292 like, we try it. 493 00:36:13,292 --> 00:36:16,252 You have the sidechain, the large block sidechain. 494 00:36:16,252 --> 00:36:19,292 You turn it on, and then, oh, like, oh, that didn't work. 495 00:36:19,292 --> 00:36:20,732 But then you figure out why it didn't work. 496 00:36:20,732 --> 00:36:24,052 Oh, maybe it's easy to fix, or maybe it just does work, you know? 497 00:36:24,052 --> 00:36:25,692 Maybe there are no problems at all. 498 00:36:25,692 --> 00:36:28,372 Or maybe, I presented it at Scaling 3, 499 00:36:28,372 --> 00:36:31,212 I was like, maybe the fact that you just have both of them, 500 00:36:31,212 --> 00:36:33,532 it's like a Mont and Bailey defense 501 00:36:33,532 --> 00:36:38,852 where people would build this kind of tower or castle, like on a hill, 502 00:36:38,852 --> 00:36:40,812 and then they would have, like, a kind of other thing 503 00:36:40,812 --> 00:36:43,452 where they would mostly hang out, like in a field. 504 00:36:43,452 --> 00:36:44,812 And that's where they really wanted to be. 505 00:36:44,812 --> 00:36:45,932 No one wanted to be in the tower. 506 00:36:45,932 --> 00:36:49,812 This is, like, in whatever, the 500 AD era. 507 00:36:49,812 --> 00:36:53,132 And you would want to hang out in the large block place 508 00:36:53,132 --> 00:36:54,252 where the fees are cheap. 509 00:36:54,252 --> 00:36:57,732 But then if someone tries to attack all of the nodes, 510 00:36:57,732 --> 00:37:02,692 then you just retreat to the tower and shoot with giant longbows 511 00:37:02,692 --> 00:37:05,732 at these people, you know, until they leave you alone. 512 00:37:05,732 --> 00:37:07,652 And then they leave, and then you go back out. 513 00:37:07,692 --> 00:37:10,932 And so, this is kind of like a strategic synergy between the two. 514 00:37:10,932 --> 00:37:13,812 I'm not sure if that's a desirable situation to be in 515 00:37:13,812 --> 00:37:16,452 if we have better alternatives. 516 00:37:16,452 --> 00:37:17,732 Well, I don't know. What do you mean by that? 517 00:37:17,732 --> 00:37:20,932 Oh, I mean, in your analogy of having to retreat to the tower 518 00:37:20,932 --> 00:37:23,332 and shoot down the people in the field, 519 00:37:23,332 --> 00:37:24,972 I mean, all of that could be avoided. 520 00:37:24,972 --> 00:37:26,772 It's a small block chain. 521 00:37:26,772 --> 00:37:28,572 Right, you know, I understand. Yes, I understand. 522 00:37:28,572 --> 00:37:31,252 But then, you know, like, if, like, you know... 523 00:37:31,252 --> 00:37:35,612 If people attack, it's better than not having a tower. 524 00:37:35,612 --> 00:37:39,172 But I think for a lot of people, like, and, you know, I think... 525 00:37:39,172 --> 00:37:42,492 I think the design, if Bitcoin were to really succeed 526 00:37:42,492 --> 00:37:44,372 in terms of the vision of Core, 527 00:37:44,372 --> 00:37:47,652 like, transaction fees would have to become very high. 528 00:37:47,652 --> 00:37:51,132 I think at current scale, you know, more than $100 per transaction. 529 00:37:51,132 --> 00:37:53,652 And I think that creates a type of inequity 530 00:37:53,652 --> 00:37:56,932 where not everyone can afford to move into the tower. 531 00:37:56,932 --> 00:37:59,932 And even furthermore, not everyone can fit in the tower. 532 00:37:59,932 --> 00:38:04,292 I mean, I believe for everyone to do a single transaction on Bitcoin, 533 00:38:04,292 --> 00:38:07,812 it would take a century for the entire world to do one transaction. 534 00:38:07,812 --> 00:38:12,292 So I don't really see that the gate is big enough to save those people. 535 00:38:12,292 --> 00:38:15,932 And I think a lot of the plebs are going to be stuck in the field and shot down. 536 00:38:15,932 --> 00:38:18,172 It's quite the analogy here. 537 00:38:18,172 --> 00:38:21,852 I... Well, that's not really what I mean, is that that's close. 538 00:38:21,852 --> 00:38:26,212 But by staying in the tower, I mean that Bitcoin itself is still alive 539 00:38:26,212 --> 00:38:28,692 and everyone's money is just kind of on pause. 540 00:38:28,692 --> 00:38:32,852 So the large block, I'm imagining something that, you know, 541 00:38:32,852 --> 00:38:36,452 this is the disaster painted by the core people, 542 00:38:36,452 --> 00:38:39,492 is that there's only like five nodes and they're all in a data center in China. 543 00:38:39,492 --> 00:38:43,852 The Chinese government rolls in and says that you have to like do X, Y, Z or whatever. 544 00:38:43,852 --> 00:38:50,052 And so the Chinese government rolls on in and they say, 545 00:38:50,052 --> 00:38:52,052 you can't do this or you can't do that. 546 00:38:52,052 --> 00:38:55,212 And then, or just you have to shut all this off. 547 00:38:55,212 --> 00:38:59,612 And so my defense is that instead of the newspaper headline being 548 00:38:59,612 --> 00:39:04,012 China destroys Bitcoin completely, Chinese government number one, 549 00:39:04,012 --> 00:39:05,812 you know, whatever was so great. 550 00:39:05,812 --> 00:39:11,572 Instead, the headline is just Chinese government makes Bitcoin much more expensive to use. 551 00:39:11,572 --> 00:39:15,532 Some people find that very annoying, you know, 552 00:39:15,532 --> 00:39:21,292 and then the conversation is just about how they are doing something that is directly inconvenient, 553 00:39:21,292 --> 00:39:25,252 but not even really achieving a good purpose. 554 00:39:25,252 --> 00:39:26,372 And so that's kind of what I mean. 555 00:39:27,172 --> 00:39:31,092 I think to me that's somewhat of a false dichotomy in that, you know, 556 00:39:31,092 --> 00:39:33,852 this idea that we'll only have five nodes that govern the network, 557 00:39:33,852 --> 00:39:37,132 that's certainly not something I would advocate for, right? 558 00:39:37,132 --> 00:39:40,932 And I don't know whether or not it's accurate or not, 559 00:39:40,932 --> 00:39:44,612 but I'm just saying this is the, again, this is the Hayekian thing. 560 00:39:44,612 --> 00:39:49,012 So it's like, okay, well, if that happens, do we have some plan for that? 561 00:39:49,012 --> 00:39:50,812 Then okay, then there you go. 562 00:39:50,812 --> 00:39:51,532 There's your plan. 563 00:39:51,532 --> 00:39:54,412 So works for everyone. 564 00:39:54,412 --> 00:39:59,332 Well, I think there's a middle ground that can be struck here as well, 565 00:39:59,332 --> 00:40:01,892 because like something, actually I'll introduce an idea here, 566 00:40:01,892 --> 00:40:07,252 something that I always found to be a lot more realistic to establish for Bitcoin is 567 00:40:07,252 --> 00:40:11,172 if we just simply just established a minimum specification of like, 568 00:40:11,172 --> 00:40:14,652 you know, what should be the minimum specification to run a full node? 569 00:40:14,652 --> 00:40:22,052 Like realistically, like today, like you can run a Bitcoin full node for like $5 a month pretty easily. 570 00:40:22,092 --> 00:40:32,612 And I think with eight megabyte block sizes, that's $10 a month or, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 571 00:40:32,612 --> 00:40:36,132 Yeah, and I think in that sense, I think, you know, being realistic, 572 00:40:36,132 --> 00:40:38,452 if we say let's establish a minimum specification. 573 00:40:38,452 --> 00:40:42,412 So let's say just an average computer with an average connection in the developed world. 574 00:40:42,412 --> 00:40:46,132 I don't think we should expect, you know, poor people in the third world to run full nodes. 575 00:40:46,132 --> 00:40:49,972 That doesn't necessarily seem to be the correct priority here. 576 00:40:49,972 --> 00:40:55,252 I'm more happy to enable SPV wallets for, you know, the disenfranchised of this world. 577 00:40:55,252 --> 00:40:56,252 Yeah. 578 00:40:56,252 --> 00:41:04,732 Well, I think that that question is linked to the other question, which is how people feel about SPV. 579 00:41:04,732 --> 00:41:08,452 And again, I kind of feel very fine with it. 580 00:41:08,452 --> 00:41:09,972 So this is actually very interesting. 581 00:41:09,972 --> 00:41:13,652 So first of all, I wrote a cool blog post that a lot of people liked. 582 00:41:13,652 --> 00:41:18,972 It's very long in my characteristic style on Truthcoin.info, but it's called Measuring Decentralization. 583 00:41:18,972 --> 00:41:22,572 And I concluded that the best, this word is very vague. 584 00:41:22,572 --> 00:41:23,852 And I was like, what does this word mean? 585 00:41:23,852 --> 00:41:25,492 You know, because that was another point of contention. 586 00:41:25,492 --> 00:41:28,812 And I was like, this is not going to get anywhere if no one has a definition for this word. 587 00:41:28,812 --> 00:41:36,332 So I said, let's define it as the cost of your option to create a new full node and then start using it. 588 00:41:36,332 --> 00:41:39,372 So it's basically what you're saying. 589 00:41:39,372 --> 00:41:44,572 And so that's, so we should have some, if we care about decentralization, 590 00:41:44,572 --> 00:41:46,732 we should be able to define it and measure it. 591 00:41:46,732 --> 00:41:49,812 And people should really care about the measurements and the definitions. 592 00:41:49,812 --> 00:41:52,372 Very suspiciously, many people do not. 593 00:41:52,372 --> 00:41:59,692 They say they care about decentralization, but then it's like saying you care about, I don't know, 594 00:41:59,692 --> 00:42:02,652 chemistry, but you don't keep track of the elements or you don't, 595 00:42:02,652 --> 00:42:05,452 you never build a microscope or from biology or something. 596 00:42:05,452 --> 00:42:08,452 So that aspect is very interesting. 597 00:42:08,452 --> 00:42:16,052 But then the SPV aspect is also interesting because people say, well, we never built these fraud proofs, 598 00:42:16,052 --> 00:42:19,092 but I actually also did a very recent blog post about that, 599 00:42:19,092 --> 00:42:27,572 which is very, very long and very complicated about how I think you might be able to do these fraud proofs 600 00:42:27,572 --> 00:42:30,972 that no one has been able to disagree with yet. 601 00:42:30,972 --> 00:42:35,492 But just to your point, at the bottom, I'm like, I don't know if anyone really even needs this 602 00:42:35,492 --> 00:42:40,612 because seriously, like when's the last time that, you know, 603 00:42:40,932 --> 00:42:48,212 there's asymmetry for those of you who don't know in SPV mode where almost all of the work, 604 00:42:48,212 --> 00:42:54,012 99.99% of the miner's effort goes into this thing that you can check in like two seconds 605 00:42:54,012 --> 00:42:57,852 and then validating the block is this much longer task. 606 00:42:57,852 --> 00:43:03,492 And, you know, that's a very clever, I find that to be a very clever design and a very good asymmetry. 607 00:43:03,492 --> 00:43:08,732 And it's like wood, if miners want to get paid, they should run the node. 608 00:43:09,012 --> 00:43:14,732 What's the percentage of the node cost relative to the other capex that they've put in? 609 00:43:14,732 --> 00:43:16,172 You know, wouldn't they just... 610 00:43:16,172 --> 00:43:23,212 And then the other thing on top of that is that there's a dichotomy between... 611 00:43:23,212 --> 00:43:27,932 Miners is a word that describes actually a couple of different people, but mainly two groups. 612 00:43:27,932 --> 00:43:31,732 The hashers who are just cranking out the SHA-256, 613 00:43:31,732 --> 00:43:34,692 but then there's also like these pool operators that kind of decide what to do 614 00:43:34,732 --> 00:43:39,332 and then they just pass a tiny amount of information, you know, 615 00:43:39,332 --> 00:43:43,372 whatever it is, like 200 kilobytes or something or not, it just, yeah. 616 00:43:43,372 --> 00:43:49,932 And so it's like those are the people who need to run one node, you know, 617 00:43:49,932 --> 00:43:58,612 in exchange for being the pool operator and having a brand of that to try to attract these hashers. 618 00:43:58,612 --> 00:44:02,452 And it's an environment that is, you know, it's like textbook perfect competition 619 00:44:02,492 --> 00:44:06,172 and anyone can just show up and there's no barriers to entry for this. 620 00:44:06,172 --> 00:44:10,612 So you show up and establish a brand, you'll be raking it in and you want to defend that brand 621 00:44:10,612 --> 00:44:15,732 that you don't miscalculate the block and invalidate all the miners' payments. 622 00:44:15,732 --> 00:44:17,532 But then people say, oh, how will we ever know? 623 00:44:17,532 --> 00:44:20,692 Like, why would the payments ever be invalidated if no one is checking? 624 00:44:20,692 --> 00:44:24,092 And then you say, well, some people will check and then it becomes kind of a crazy thing. 625 00:44:24,092 --> 00:44:25,252 I'd like to touch on that, Ikshin. 626 00:44:25,252 --> 00:44:27,572 I think, Ikshin, you defined as hashers and pools. 627 00:44:27,572 --> 00:44:30,012 I think I'm using the definition miners and pools, 628 00:44:30,012 --> 00:44:32,772 but it's the same things, the semantic difference there. 629 00:44:32,772 --> 00:44:36,252 But I think this is something that a lot of people forget because there's a lot of talk 630 00:44:36,252 --> 00:44:40,852 about if we increase the block size, it increases mining centralization. 631 00:44:40,852 --> 00:44:44,852 And that is categorically wrong. 632 00:44:44,852 --> 00:44:48,812 The sense in which people mean that, that ship has sailed a very long time ago. 633 00:44:48,812 --> 00:44:55,572 There was like one mempool shared by like 70% of the miners as of like early 2014 or something. 634 00:44:55,572 --> 00:44:58,412 Like that ship has completely sailed. 635 00:44:58,412 --> 00:45:03,692 But in a good sense, Sergio Damon Lerner was one of the earliest to point this out 636 00:45:03,692 --> 00:45:05,372 and no one would really listen. 637 00:45:05,372 --> 00:45:09,092 And this ties into all kinds of other crazy things. 638 00:45:09,092 --> 00:45:13,292 But there was this phenomenon of block orphaning. 639 00:45:13,292 --> 00:45:15,652 Everyone should, it's very instructive and fun. 640 00:45:15,652 --> 00:45:22,012 If you go to blockchain.info charts, which are very fun, but you can check out the orphaned blocks. 641 00:45:22,012 --> 00:45:27,452 You'll see as blocks got bigger, there was suddenly this problem of the blocks being orphaned. 642 00:45:27,492 --> 00:45:32,252 And that, it's hard to very quickly explain what's going on there, but the miners don't 643 00:45:32,252 --> 00:45:35,452 like orphaned blocks because they mined a valid block, but then they lose all their 644 00:45:35,452 --> 00:45:36,452 money for it. 645 00:45:36,452 --> 00:45:39,772 So they, because they happened to be found coincidentally at the same time as someone 646 00:45:39,772 --> 00:45:41,412 else and just no one checked. 647 00:45:41,412 --> 00:45:43,812 So this started to be a big problem. 648 00:45:43,812 --> 00:45:48,492 But then eventually you reach a point where block size continues to increase, but then 649 00:45:48,492 --> 00:45:51,732 this problem just basically just completely goes, falls off a cliff and goes away. 650 00:45:51,732 --> 00:45:56,292 And then now no blocks are really orphaned almost ever. 651 00:45:56,292 --> 00:46:01,692 And that is because of this phenomenon of SPV and spy mining, where all of the miners 652 00:46:01,692 --> 00:46:07,892 are actually plugged into each other's pools and they will, as soon as someone finds a 653 00:46:07,892 --> 00:46:12,292 new header and clicks the new miners over to it, everyone will click over to it immediately 654 00:46:12,292 --> 00:46:16,172 without, before they explicitly check on it. 655 00:46:16,172 --> 00:46:22,252 But they do implicitly check in the fact that they are still working on, yeah, they do implicitly 656 00:46:22,252 --> 00:46:28,212 check in the fact that they assume that since these other miners have been driven to, you 657 00:46:28,212 --> 00:46:35,852 know, the other pool administrator has decided that they are going to start working on this. 658 00:46:35,852 --> 00:46:39,852 That is a kind of indirect evidence that you should at least work on it until you have 659 00:46:39,852 --> 00:46:41,972 checked for yourself, which is like 30 or 40 seconds. 660 00:46:41,972 --> 00:46:43,932 So this problem doesn't really happen anymore. 661 00:46:43,932 --> 00:46:50,132 But yeah, mining centralization is another thing that it, unlike decentralization, which 662 00:46:50,132 --> 00:46:55,452 I tried to define, basically no one has risen to the challenge and defined miner centralization 663 00:46:55,452 --> 00:47:02,612 in an acceptable way to me, other than this very boring sense in that miners like talking 664 00:47:02,612 --> 00:47:04,372 to each other or something like that. 665 00:47:04,372 --> 00:47:06,692 If I'll just explain that a bit more. 666 00:47:06,692 --> 00:47:13,012 I think that like the reality of Bitcoin today is that there's 20 to 40 pools. 667 00:47:13,012 --> 00:47:17,532 And I don't think that's going to change because it's simply just how variance works. 668 00:47:17,532 --> 00:47:23,612 Now, considering the scale of mining, these pools can afford to run full nodes, essentially. 669 00:47:23,612 --> 00:47:25,572 And, you know, exactly. 670 00:47:25,572 --> 00:47:29,052 And this is, yeah, exactly, exactly. 671 00:47:29,052 --> 00:47:33,652 And, you know, and this is why, like as a miner, like I run some miners from home, it doesn't 672 00:47:33,652 --> 00:47:37,932 matter if they are one megabyte blocks or one gigabyte blocks as a home miner, you're 673 00:47:37,932 --> 00:47:40,612 actually not affected by this. 674 00:47:40,612 --> 00:47:43,132 And that's exactly. 675 00:47:43,132 --> 00:47:44,972 And yeah, exactly. 676 00:47:44,972 --> 00:47:46,092 Yeah, exactly. 677 00:47:46,252 --> 00:47:51,572 Yeah, so I think this has been a very false narrative, I suppose, that's been going around. 678 00:47:51,572 --> 00:47:56,212 But node centralization obviously is a different issue entirely. 679 00:47:56,212 --> 00:48:00,052 But I would actually just hop back, actually just tie back to what you're saying about 680 00:48:00,052 --> 00:48:01,052 sidechains. 681 00:48:01,052 --> 00:48:07,372 And, you know, one of the gripes maybe I have with Bitcoin now is that, you know, it's failing 682 00:48:07,372 --> 00:48:12,052 to adopt, you know, good changes in the code and, you know, because just changing a one 683 00:48:12,052 --> 00:48:15,412 to a two, I think would have been an acceptable compromise. 684 00:48:15,732 --> 00:48:20,892 And introducing your concept of sidechains, I think, would have been a very amazing experiment 685 00:48:20,892 --> 00:48:21,892 to see, you know. 686 00:48:21,892 --> 00:48:27,732 And this is something that maybe shows flaws in the way that Bitcoin itself is being governed, 687 00:48:27,732 --> 00:48:31,892 you know, from a GitHub, you know, currently, and the kind of governance philosophy around that. 688 00:48:31,892 --> 00:48:38,052 Yeah, well, maybe, but, you know, I think, I think a different thing, okay, all right, cool. 689 00:48:38,052 --> 00:48:41,132 But yeah, I think a bigger thing is just the lack of interest, because, you know, I've 690 00:48:41,132 --> 00:48:46,212 been working on and tinkering with the sidechains technology and code over time. 691 00:48:46,212 --> 00:48:47,212 So it's been improving. 692 00:48:47,212 --> 00:48:49,732 And so then it's even still not even the testnet. 693 00:48:49,732 --> 00:48:55,692 But I do find it, I find a weird apathy that I can't, can't really fully explain it. 694 00:48:55,692 --> 00:49:01,452 I have a lot of theories, but I suspect if you went to something like Ethereum or Bitcoin 695 00:49:01,452 --> 00:49:04,852 cash, that'd be far more welcoming to your ideas. 696 00:49:04,852 --> 00:49:08,852 Well, it's been an absolute. 697 00:49:08,852 --> 00:49:09,852 That's cool. 698 00:49:09,852 --> 00:49:14,572 It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you here and really enjoy your work and thank you.