1
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Hey everyone! I mean, you guys can keep talking, that's cool. We're going to talk
about LayerTwos.

2
00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:12,000
So maybe, I think we'll just start off with like, I'm going to introduce each of
you, introduce ourselves,

3
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say what project you work on, maybe how long you've been working on it. That's kind
of a fun thing.

4
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:26,000
And like, you know, is it a LayerTwo? Yes, no? I don't. Oh.

5
00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:31,000
I like that. Yeah, okay. And then we can maybe like, see where we end up there.

6
00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:37,000
Also, if you guys have questions and stuff, this is like supposed to be kind of just
like a relaxed chat, so that's cool too.

7
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Ask questions, ask questions about anything. Yeah. We'll hear your questions.

8
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Yeah, so I'll start. My name is Lisa, also Nissy. I've been working on Lightning for
about four and a half years now.

9
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I'm on the core Lightning side, doing spec stuff. I think Lightning as a project has
been around since 2017, 2018, I think.

10
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That's a crazy look. Well, the paper was in 2015, right? But the end code, okay.

11
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Okay, so since 2015, so we're closing in on eight years in Lightning, which is
pretty cool.

12
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When was your first, was it like March 2015, the original MIT presentation?

13
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I was there for that one.

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Cool, so Lightning is like a payment channel thing, and it definitely counts as
LayerTwo in my mind.

15
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Cool.

16
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I don't know what I work on independently. What do you do?

17
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I'm SuperTestNet, and I'm a freelance software developer focused on Bitcoin
Lightning, and most recently Doster.

18
00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:53,000
And I don't, it really does depend on the league what I'm working on. The thing I
presented here was called SpaceChain, and no, it doesn't count as LayerTwo.

19
00:01:53,000 --> 00:02:01,000
It doesn't count as LayerTwo. And SpaceChain is like the, didn't you guys just like
have a project launch? Like we had Josh just put out Selma, right?

20
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Yes, we had Josh put out the second implementation of SpaceChains on Cygnet with
Selma.

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Is that the first Cygnet, is that the first SpaceChain like launch implementation,
or is there like another one that came out earlier?

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I came out with one earlier, and that one is on, mine is on TestNet, and then also
Stacks came out with, Stacks is a blockchain tech, technically needs the
qualifications to be a SpaceChain.

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Oh, cool.

24
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Oh, so Stacks is late, okay, cool.

25
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Yeah, it was SpaceChain before SpaceChains.

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SpaceChain, SpaceChain.

27
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Yep.

28
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Gotcha, cool.

29
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Yes, I'm Paul Sztorc, a Bitcoin scholar and also founder and CEO of LayerTwo Labs.

30
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I love BIP, BIP300, which enables 2A Bitcoin transfer for sidechains from Bitcoin.

31
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And that BIP has been around for a while, I think I got assigned the BIP number in
like 2018.

32
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Wow. And do you look at implementation of?

33
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Yeah, we have software, we have cloned the latest version of Zcash as a sidechain,
and cloned the latest version of Ethereum as a Bitcoin sidechain.

34
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We have special versions of it, there's like NFT or C20, but that has a UTXO model,
so like a BitAssets sidechain.

35
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We have a version of Namecoin that we resurrected that changed a lot, and we, I
don't know if we published it yet, but we have it.

36
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Yes, and we have some other things.

37
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We have a blank template, like a blank sidechain template, and we have also just a
blank template with a larger block size.

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But we're going to do something very cool with that soon, it'll be like a hackathon.

39
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We're going to eventually do a contest where whoever can improve the software
performance of the large block size chain the most will win a huge prize.

40
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And we have lots of money, so the prize will probably be like, I think we'll do it
like once a month, and it'll be like $20,000, $30,000, $40,000 each every month.

41
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And we'll probably split it up so that like two or three people can win the top
prize, which is the biggest winner.

42
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What network are these?

43
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This is not on anything yet.

44
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We have a completely, it's kind of like a hard fork of Bitcoin, but this is a test
for testing purposes.

45
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We have like a Bitcoin test in there.

46
00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:29,000
Most of the stuff that people do, we're just doing rank test mode anyway, but we
have a fake net network where the difficulty has been reset to one.

47
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So it's as if it started over, but it is just a new, like, separate thing.

48
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Now, we call it DriveNet, but it's not really it.

49
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Is it a layer 2?

50
00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:46,000
It is a layer 2 because, well, when BitTorrent activates on Bitcoin, the coins will
go there.

51
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They go up to this upper realm where stuff will happen to them, and then they will
come back.

52
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,000
It's a very weird layer 2.

53
00:04:53,000 --> 00:05:03,000
It's what we might call loose coupling because there's – so the guarantees that they
come back correctly are necessarily loose because you don't know what the upper
chain is doing.

54
00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,000
There's a lot of opacity.

55
00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:13,000
You don't actually know what the upper chain is doing, and at any given point in
time, you cannot immediately – because this is rare check-ins.

56
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Periodic.

57
00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:19,000
It's not like Lightning where you could check in at any time and bring it back up no
matter what.

58
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Check-in is what I mean.

59
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It's like going to court and getting it before.

60
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So even on Lightning, that usually takes a while.

61
00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,000
Well, you can go immediately, but you don't think you should get it.

62
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Whoever does that gets the money after whatever.

63
00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,000
It's a two-week period.

64
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I don't know exactly when.

65
00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,000
This sounds like something we should come back to, the period of the tone.

66
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Yes, check-in philosophy, I think, is interesting where the different layer 2s have
very different parameters, and the people – people seem to be very, very, I would
say, hung up.

67
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The ability to go immediately to layer 1, where I think that if you sacrifice that,
you get an awful lot.

68
00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,000
Okay, let's return to this.

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Let's finish out with a layer intro.

70
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So yes, layer 2.

71
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Space means layer 2?

72
00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:04,000
Yes, no?

73
00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,000
I would say no, because it doesn't come back.

74
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It's a one-way street.

75
00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:08,000
Oh, okay.

76
00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:09,000
Interesting.

77
00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:10,000
Okay, cool.

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Yeah.

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Go ahead.

80
00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,000
John Lighton, also known as Lightcoin on Twitter.

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I do Bitcoin research.

82
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I received a grant from the Human Rights Foundation to work on a report that is at
bitcoinrollups.org.

83
00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:34,000
It's focused on validity, rollups, and how we could potentially bring that type of
layer 2 to Bitcoin.

84
00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:44,000
And I also work on a project called Sovereign, which is building financial tools for
Bitcoin on the every-stock sidechain.

85
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I would not consider that a layer 2.

86
00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:47,000
Okay.

87
00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:55,000
And then for the rollup work that you've been doing, almost like research into what
Bitcoin rollups, what are the options, what they look like, that sort of stuff.

88
00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:59,000
Your report has a lot of different ways we could do rollups on Bitcoin.

89
00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:06,000
If you just look at validity rollups, is there a version of validity rollups that
ships?

90
00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,000
Is it an implementation phase?

91
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:14,000
Are we on the path to getting rollups as a layer 2 on Bitcoin?

92
00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:15,000
Yeah.

93
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Right now, it's still, I would say, in the conceptual phases.

94
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:28,000
So the talk that Samantha Gautam gave yesterday is actually, I think, the most
detailed description of what a validity rollup on Bitcoin could look like.

95
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Another researcher from previously at MMPBTI, Trey Delvanus, also published a pretty
detailed design document of how it could work.

96
00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,000
And yeah, I think that's as far as we've gotten.

97
00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:48,000
As far as I know, there's not really any code written.

98
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:55,000
Although there has been experimentation with not layer 2 rollups on Bitcoin, called
sovereign rollups.

99
00:07:55,000 --> 00:08:04,000
Celestia Labs released this roll kit, proof of concept of how to build a sovereign
rollup on Bitcoin.

100
00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:13,000
There's a team at Lambda Class that's working on a sovereign rollup for Bitcoin with
the longer term vision of making a validity rollup on Bitcoin.

101
00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:20,000
So yeah, there's some work in that direction, but nothing really concrete or usable
yet.

102
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Cool.

103
00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:31,000
Do you guys require, does your project require a soft fork on Bitcoin in order to
make it activate, if that makes sense?

104
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Maybe this is another, maybe they go there next and they come back to this with a
check-in idea.

105
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This is a really fun one.

106
00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,000
Yes, it's very different.

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Mine does.

108
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When I had this idea, it was back in November 2015, and it wasn't a big deal to do
soft forks at all.

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In fact, in the next month, we did three soft forks in the same month.

110
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And in fact, you can chart out how many soft forks Bitcoin has done over time, which
I've done.

111
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In the first seven years, there were, I think, 16 or 17.

112
00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:11,000
And then in the second group of seven years, there have only been, if you count
2023, it's a full year.

113
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,000
But there's not going to be any, in fact, in this year.

114
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,000
So the earliest would be like January.

115
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So if you count the second period of seven years in Bitcoin's history, just like the
2016 to 2023, there are only two.

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And the first one, the second one had enormous contention.

117
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I think it took 28 months or 20 months.

118
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It depends on how you count from when it was first proposed on the Bitcoin.dev
mailing list when it was coded and activated.

119
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And then Taproot was proposed in January 2018.

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It didn't activate until November 2021, which is 46 months or something.

121
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So it's doubling.

122
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Yeah, so it's getting much slower.

123
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So in general, the soft fork idea, while it was very common when I first proposed
this, has become less common.

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It's also intriguing that I could just launch the software with UASF or just go to
the miners and activate the soft fork.

125
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But over time, the culture of Bitcoin has become very unusual to do and seen as
extremely suspicious or improper.

126
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You can't just post your binaries on Bitcoin.com and have people download them.

127
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I liked it when you told the mailing list, we're soft forking on Tuesday.

128
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That was my favorite time.

129
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Wait, whose turn was it?

130
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You didn't really say that.

131
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:40,000
See, that's the interesting thing is that Jeremy Rubin, he didn't really do that,
but he did something like that.

132
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And it was met with a disastrous result.

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It's hard to know exactly how to interpret that because some would say that it is up
about.

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It didn't really have anything to do with what he was even working on per se.

135
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It was the general principle of exactly what the procedure is.

136
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Mine doesn't require the soft fork, but it would be greatly assisted by any crypto.

137
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APO?

138
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:06,000
Yeah.

139
00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:07,000
And APO requires the soft fork, right?

140
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,000
APO requires the soft fork.

141
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:10,000
Yeah.

142
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What about the living roll-ups?

143
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Living roll-ups would need a soft fork.

144
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The project I'm working on right now, the Lost Sovereign, doesn't need a soft fork.

145
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But if we wanted to improve the security of the branch so that it doesn't rely on
the Federation,

146
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but instead on Bitcoin consensus, then we'd need some kind of soft fork.

147
00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:33,000
Yes.

148
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:39,000
See, a funny idea would be, what if someone secretly, they needed a soft fork
hypothetically,

149
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they secretly go to the miners and say, activate this soft fork secretly.

150
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Because no one knows.

151
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There's a tightening of the rules.

152
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There's certain soft forks.

153
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Actually, this is one of the things that I was learning about soft forks,

154
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is that the word actually, the distinction between soft and hard fork has been
eroded over time.

155
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And actually, it doesn't mean very much anymore.

156
00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:01,000
But this type of, the Bitpreambler soft fork, or the AnyCrypt app soft fork, or
these other soft forks,

157
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they are all the kind where you could go to the miners and say, activate it
secretly,

158
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and then just wait five or six months.

159
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And then just, you know, write to the mailing list or whatever.

160
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Now it's kind of complicated.

161
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,000
Actually, it has been activated this whole time.

162
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You just didn't know.

163
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And here it is.

164
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Surprise.

165
00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:23,000
Here's the, whatever, the magic numbers or the, which I think that so much,

166
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,000
that would be funny if someone did that.

167
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,000
I would clap for that, personally.

168
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,000
I mean, what would that take?

169
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:30,000
I mean, I guess it could be like.

170
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The miners have to agree to keep it a secret.

171
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They have to run their own new software, which they hate upgrading software.

172
00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,000
They're like, can we just not run the same piece of software?

173
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It's like the only job is to run a piece of software and collect money.

174
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So do I have to do something?

175
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I have to do another thing?

176
00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,000
Why can't I just collect the money?

177
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I like stuff.

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Whatever.

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We should upgrade mining.

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We should go to the miner's system and activate all the soft forks.

181
00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:01,000
Okay.

182
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:02,000
What about, okay.

183
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,000
What about like Cignet Inquisition, right?

184
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,000
Are they basically doing this on Cignet?

185
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,000
They're like, so how many of you guys know what Cignet Inquisition,

186
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,000
Inquisition Cignet is?

187
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,000
He's talking about it at consensus.

188
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Guys at consensus are going to know more about it than you guys.

189
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:16,000
No, I'm just kidding.

190
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:20,000
But Inquisition Cignet is this project by, I think,

191
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:25,000
AJ Towns is kind of believed of behind the heretics leading the Inquisition.

192
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,000
Or maybe it goes the other way.

193
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,000
The fundamentalists.

194
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,000
He's testing the heretics.

195
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:32,000
He's testing the heretics.

196
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:33,000
Yeah.

197
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:34,000
So, yeah.

198
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,000
So, the Inquisition Cignet.

199
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:43,000
So, Cignet is a different test net for Bitcoin that, I don't know,

200
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:44,000
doesn't do mining.

201
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,000
So, they kind of made.

202
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:47,000
Each block is signed.

203
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,000
So, a new block comes out.

204
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,000
But there is no, like, Shopify Cignet.

205
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:52,000
Yeah.

206
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:53,000
It's AJ Towns net.

207
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,000
It's designed specifically so that you can actually force weird things to

208
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,000
happen, like reorgs or whatever.

209
00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,000
Michael Tibbo has a very confused look on his face.

210
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,000
It's a small piece of work, right?

211
00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:04,000
You still need to do small amounts of work.

212
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:05,000
Yeah, it's work.

213
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,000
Even with Cignet, you still have to do it a little bit.

214
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:08,000
There's still some work.

215
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,000
But that's the point, though.

216
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:11,000
The difference between.

217
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:12,000
It's more like the truth of.

218
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:13,000
Fairly good.

219
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:14,000
That regular.

220
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,000
It's more like hundreds of millions of dollars invested in, like,

221
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,000
a specialized warehouse full of, like, marine containers that have,

222
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,000
like, specialized chips.

223
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:24,000
Okay.

224
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,000
So, it's Cignet.

225
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:32,000
The cool thing about Inquisition Cignet is that they take all these

226
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,000
proposals, like all these software proposals.

227
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,000
And it's basically gone to the miners and they, like,

228
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,000
implemented it like that, right?

229
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:39,000
It's launched them on Cignet.

230
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,000
If you run a special version of Bitcoin Core,

231
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,000
which is the Inquisition Bitcoin Core version,

232
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:45,000
you can still be on Cignet.

233
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,000
You can try out all of these, like, new proposals.

234
00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,000
There's some mental policy stuff they're trying out.

235
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,000
Like, you can get that on Anchor, V3 stuff.

236
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:54,000
I don't know if it's out yet.

237
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,000
It's a much better testnet than the real testnet.

238
00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,000
It's not better than the real testnet.

239
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:00,000
The real testnet is the worst.

240
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,000
And RegTest is, you know,

241
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,000
RegTest matches Bitcoin's consensus rules, and Cignet doesn't.

242
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,000
So, if you want to actually see what it's like on Bitcoin,

243
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:09,000
you ought to use testnet.

244
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,000
Testnet is, like, barely usable because it's insane.

245
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:14,000
Because other people are connected to it.

246
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,000
It's not like a sterile laboratory environment.

247
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,000
It's much smarter than a bunch of people are in.

248
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:20,000
Cignet is cool, though.

249
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:21,000
It's a testnet.

250
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,000
If you go to Mempool's face and you click the Cignet button,

251
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,000
the Cignet you're looking at is the Inquisition Cignet.

252
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:27,000
Ah, okay.

253
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:28,000
Oh, that's not Mempool.

254
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:29,000
So, they show the Cignet.

255
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:33,000
So, the default Cignet on Mempool is the Inquisition version.

256
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,000
The one that everyone looks at is the one with all the softboxes activated.

257
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:37,000
That's the Cignet.

258
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:41,000
So, the solar project, the space chain that you guys put out.

259
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:42,000
Maybe one...

260
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:43,000
I don't really know what a space chain is.

261
00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,000
You said it's not a leertune?

262
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,000
I don't think it's not a leertune.

263
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,000
Maybe we can give everyone a quick...

264
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:54,000
Do you think a leertune is a leertune?

265
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:55,000
No.

266
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,000
What do you think a leertune is?

267
00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:58,000
Let's not...

268
00:15:58,000 --> 00:15:59,000
We can argue about it.

269
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:00,000
I want to hear this.

270
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:01,000
Oh, yeah.

271
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:02,000
Okay.

272
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:03,000
So, let's start with...

273
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,000
Maybe we can start with what is a space chain.

274
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,000
You might want to clarify what these things are before we...

275
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:08,000
Yeah, yeah.

276
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,000
So, let's get a little definitions on the board first,

277
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,000
and then we can argue about where we put it.

278
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:13,000
Yeah.

279
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:14,000
I think that...

280
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:15,000
Cool.

281
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:16,000
Okay.

282
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,000
So, the space chain, it's on the Inclusion Thicknet.

283
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,000
That's because you needed one of...

284
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:24,000
Is that because you needed one of the proposals, the software proposals for Soma?

285
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:25,000
You wanted to do...

286
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:26,000
Okay.

287
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,000
VFTF wanted to do one that was better than mine.

288
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,000
Okay.

289
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,000
The one that I launched has a lot of problems.

290
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,000
So, you make one that has fewer problems.

291
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,000
And that one uses APO to fix the bugs in mine.

292
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:37,000
Okay, cool.

293
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,000
So, you guys are doing APO, which is using...

294
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,000
It can only exist on Inclusion Thicknet.

295
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:44,000
Yeah.

296
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:45,000
For software reasons.

297
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:46,000
For software reasons.

298
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:47,000
Yeah, okay.

299
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:48,000
So, what is a space chain?

300
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:52,000
Like, what is this thing that you can now do using Soma on Inclusion Thicknet?

301
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:57,000
Yeah, a space chain is a blockchain that is separate from Bitcoin,

302
00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,000
but it has the following connection to Bitcoin.

303
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:05,000
Every time you create a space block, or a block of transactions for the space chain,

304
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:10,000
you take a hash of it, and you put the hash of that block in Bitcoin.

305
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,000
So, if you want to find out, if you're trying to sync the sidechain,

306
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,000
and you want to know the order of blocks,

307
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:19,000
you don't need special proof-of-work or a special proof-of-stake consensus system.

308
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,000
You can just follow the trail of hashes in Bitcoin.

309
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,000
Okay, the next block has this hash, because that's what Bitcoin says,

310
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,000
and the next one has this hash.

311
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:28,000
How do you find the next...

312
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,000
How do you, like, find the next hash?

313
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,000
Like, Bitcoin does that with a lot of...

314
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,000
It's kind of like if you have, like, many different versions of Counterparty,

315
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,000
where instead of each message being in the blockchain,

316
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,000
each block, they compress it into a block first,

317
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:42,000
and put that in.

318
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:47,000
So, it's like, there's this line of transactions in Bitcoin.

319
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:48,000
Oh, okay.

320
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,000
So, you look at them, and maybe you can interpret them,

321
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,000
and maybe you can interpret some of these blocks.

322
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,000
You create something called a linked list.

323
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,000
So, you start out with one Bitcoin address,

324
00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,000
and then you spend from that one into the next one,

325
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,000
and spend from that one into the next one.

326
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:03,000
Who's paying for all that?

327
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,000
Like, every time you make this, you get so upset.

328
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:09,000
So, in order to make a new block on your sidechain, then, with spacechains,

329
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,000
you need to make a new transaction on Bitcoin.

330
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,000
Transactions on Bitcoin, sometimes are really cheap, you know,

331
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,000
every once in a while, right?

332
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:18,000
Sometimes they're really expensive.

333
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,000
Like, who pays for that?

334
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:24,000
Because your chain stops if you can't keep doing that, right?

335
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,000
Yeah, it stops if you can't.

336
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,000
No one wants to pay for the next block.

337
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,000
Typically, people have some sort of currency on the spacechain

338
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:36,000
that they pay spacechain miners with,

339
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:43,000
and those spacechain miners use that funding to buy transactions based on Bitcoin.

340
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:44,000
I see.

341
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,000
Yeah, but none of that is the important thing about the spacechain.

342
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,000
The important thing about the spacechain is it's just a sidechain

343
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,000
where the coins, instead of being able to come back, are just immediately destroyed.

344
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:53,000
Oh.

345
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,000
So, it's kind of a very silly idea.

346
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:59,000
People don't actually use it for anything, because it's tons of fun.

347
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,000
And so much, you don't actually have to destroy any coins.

348
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,000
You just use lightning to pay for transactions.

349
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:06,000
That's true.

350
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,000
Soma did manage to get rid of the stupidest thing about spacechains.

351
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,000
Wait, why are coins disappearing?

352
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:15,000
How did that happen?

353
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,000
So, people hate Bitcoin.

354
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,000
No, I mean, it's funny.

355
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,000
Wait, does spacechain have an attack on Bitcoin?

356
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:26,000
It makes all other Bitcoin holders very terrified.

357
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,000
It's a tabloid that people have done on the internet.

358
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:34,000
The theory is that if you burn a Bitcoin and you prove that,

359
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,000
you've created a scarce asset.

360
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,000
I would say you've destroyed one.

361
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,000
But that's the theory, is that now you've got a ghost of a Bitcoin.

362
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,000
You've got to prove that you've destroyed a Bitcoin.

363
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,000
And that's valuable somehow.

364
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:49,000
Oh, it's like a Banksy thing, where they destroy stuff and put it in an NFT.

365
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:50,000
Because NFTs rip a lot.

366
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,000
You destroy something to make it.

367
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:53,000
Yeah.

368
00:19:53,000 --> 00:20:00,000
As you know, whenever you have a car and you set it on fire,

369
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,000
that always produces something of equal and opposite value.

370
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:08,000
So, one of the problems of mine is that it burns Bitcoins.

371
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,000
And Fiat Jeff, that's one of the things he fixed.

372
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:11,000
Oh, okay.

373
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:12,000
So, that's a good thing.

374
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,000
So, how does Fiat Jeff not burn Bitcoin?

375
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:20,000
So, what he does is, when you want to change the state of the spacechain,

376
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:24,000
you create a little piece of text that you want to add to a block.

377
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,000
You submit that to a spacechain miner, and he gives you a lightning invoice.

378
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:31,000
And he says, I will add this to my next spaceblock for this fee.

379
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:32,000
I see.

380
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,000
And then you pay him, and if he doesn't mine the next block,

381
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,000
he cancels your invoice and you get your money back.

382
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:42,000
If he does mine the next block, he takes the money.

383
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,000
Can he take the money and not?

384
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:46,000
Yes, he can.

385
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:47,000
Okay.

386
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:48,000
It's a trusted system.

387
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,000
Trust payments.

388
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:51,000
But it avoids burning Bitcoin.

389
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,000
And typically, you're only trusting him with about five cents.

390
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,000
And if he did take it, you just don't use that miner again.

391
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,000
So, he burns his reputation.

392
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:00,000
He would burn his reputation.

393
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,000
Yeah.

394
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,000
Well, you could also waive that on the affair and say,

395
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,000
hey, nobody should trust this miner because he stole my money, whatever.

396
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:10,000
And you can prove it.

397
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,000
You could prove it.

398
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:12,000
That seems important.

399
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,000
Yeah, but all this is a regression, though,

400
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,000
because there is the one-way staging,

401
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:21,000
which is like how to upgrade Bitcoin from one thing to something else.

402
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,000
That was already this idea that we could release a new version of Bitcoin,

403
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,000
and then people could, if they wanted a new feature,

404
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,000
they could even get the hard fork or something,

405
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:33,000
where it's like this is the origin of this idea of 2012 or something,

406
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,000
where you have a new version of Bitcoin,

407
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:36,000
it's completely new,

408
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:40,000
and then as people move coins from the old version to the new version,

409
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,000
they would destroy them on the first piece of software,

410
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,000
and they would start to show up on the new piece of software

411
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,000
with the goal of eventually everyone moving it across.

412
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,000
That was this original idea from 2012.

413
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,000
And then people became curious about the idea of

414
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,000
what if instead of destroying them,

415
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,000
you spend them on something,

416
00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:00,000
and then if people change their mind on the new piece of software,

417
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,000
they can actually go back and get the coin and reclaim it.

418
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,000
The coins of the first piece of software.

419
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,000
That was the so-called two-way peg,

420
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,000
which is a really silly name.

421
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,000
Out of all the names we have, it's just really weird.

422
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,000
You don't have pegging.

423
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:14,000
Yeah.

424
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:15,000
The new term is bridging.

425
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,000
Yeah, so now it's called bridging.

426
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,000
Are bridges and pegs like the same thing?

427
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,000
Unlike the 30-minute stuff?

428
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,000
I'm trying to remember.

429
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:29,000
So then, eventually, it came to the paper in October 2014,

430
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:34,000
and then my idea in November 2015 is the two-way bridge peg.

431
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:42,000
And then later on, there was this bridge pegging.

432
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:46,000
Well, mine was still critique, saying like,

433
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,000
well, what if we move the coins over,

434
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,000
and then the wrong person gets them back, and they won.

435
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,000
And then, after all that,

436
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,000
Ruben Thompson came up with this thing of like,

437
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,000
well, we can move the coins over, and then they won't be stolen.

438
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,000
But it was really kind of going backwards.

439
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:02,000
Yeah.

440
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,000
So when I invented the person taking the coins back,

441
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:10,000
one of the many people working on this bi-directional bridge peg,

442
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:15,000
I was like, it's not going to happen.

443
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:16,000
It's not going to happen.

444
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,000
Stop trying with the bridge peg, Kevin.

445
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,000
I was like, oh, this is what the people want?

446
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:23,000
Like, you know?

447
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,000
Oh, you want the people to watch this?

448
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:29,000
It's like a car that can drive you to work,

449
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,000
and then back from your job, back to your house.

450
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,000
And then, because before, you know,

451
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:39,000
there was like a bike path you could only take in one direction,

452
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:40,000
and I was like, this is a car.

453
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:41,000
Seems like you should make rules.

454
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,000
You want to be at work, you want to be at home.

455
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,000
I was like, I've got this car that goes both ways.

456
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,000
And people were like, OK, here we have the car,

457
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,000
but now it only goes one way.

458
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,000
It only takes you to work.

459
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,000
And I was like, I thought that.

460
00:23:53,275 --> 00:23:54,275
I was like, I thought that's not what we wanted.

461
00:23:55,275 --> 00:23:58,275
I think there's going to be a lot of cars in that parking lot.

462
00:23:59,275 --> 00:24:01,275
I mean, do you guys think there's like appetite for this layer?

463
00:24:02,275 --> 00:24:04,275
Like, why would anyone use it?

464
00:24:05,275 --> 00:24:17,275
Like, this is only really useful if you don't want to use Bitcoin on the other
chain, or like, I don't know, you're willing to use like a trusted bridge, and for
some reason you still want to pay Bitcoin miners for your blocks.

465
00:24:18,275 --> 00:24:19,275
I think.

466
00:24:19,275 --> 00:24:30,275
For some reason, I think something really strange happened psychologically,
honestly, where it was like, the idea, some of those face-chained people early on,
they seemed to speak as though,

467
00:24:30,275 --> 00:24:32,275
Oh my gosh, there's a bug in front of here.

468
00:24:33,275 --> 00:24:36,275
There seems to be like a, oh my gosh, they don't want me to speak.

469
00:24:36,275 --> 00:24:38,275
They don't want the truth to come out.

470
00:24:39,275 --> 00:24:40,275
I don't see the bug.

471
00:24:44,275 --> 00:24:51,275
They were saying something along the lines of like, well, it will still be, in one
way, the peg will still hold, the bridge peg will hold.

472
00:24:51,275 --> 00:24:54,275
And so then that's like, we're like halfway done or something.

473
00:24:55,275 --> 00:24:57,275
And I was like, that's not that true.

474
00:24:58,275 --> 00:25:05,275
They're like, the price will never go above one Bitcoin, because one of the problems
I have is face-chained Android chains.

475
00:25:05,275 --> 00:25:07,275
I can't think of anything I would actually use one for.

476
00:25:08,275 --> 00:25:09,275
Anything you'd use the Drivechain for?

477
00:25:09,275 --> 00:25:10,275
No, no.

478
00:25:10,275 --> 00:25:12,275
Is there like a Zcash privacy?

479
00:25:13,275 --> 00:25:15,275
Yeah, because there are three things people bring up.

480
00:25:15,275 --> 00:25:21,275
They say we could make a Monero or a Zcash one, we could make an Ethereum one, and
we could make a BigBlock one.

481
00:25:22,275 --> 00:25:26,275
And I don't, I'm very satisfied with CoinJoin, it's a privacy tool.

482
00:25:26,275 --> 00:25:29,275
I'm very satisfied with BitcoinScript, it's a scripting tool.

483
00:25:29,275 --> 00:25:32,275
And I don't want BigBlocks.

484
00:25:32,275 --> 00:25:34,275
What am I going to use the Drivechain for?

485
00:25:35,275 --> 00:25:47,275
What if you, let's say you have a family gathering, and you're having people over,
and you say, not everyone likes this kind of food.

486
00:25:47,275 --> 00:25:51,275
Some of my in-laws want, they want to have vegetarian food or something.

487
00:25:51,275 --> 00:25:57,275
Would you say, well, I don't really want, I don't like vegetarian food, so no one
else can have it either.

488
00:25:57,275 --> 00:26:01,275
No, no, I'm not, I don't oppose face-chains or Drivechains.

489
00:26:01,275 --> 00:26:02,275
I'm in favor of having them.

490
00:26:02,275 --> 00:26:04,275
I just don't, I can't think of anything I'd want to use.

491
00:26:04,275 --> 00:26:05,275
Why not just use a different chain?

492
00:26:05,275 --> 00:26:07,275
Like, why even involve Bitcoin in this scheme?

493
00:26:07,275 --> 00:26:09,275
Like, why do we have Bitcoin?

494
00:26:09,275 --> 00:26:10,275
Because we have the altcoin, of course.

495
00:26:10,275 --> 00:26:17,275
It justifies the existence of the altcoin, which is a distraction, because we want
Bitcoin to be, we want network effects to grow for Bitcoin.

496
00:26:17,275 --> 00:26:20,275
We want Bitcoin to continue to be a bigger and bigger project.

497
00:26:20,275 --> 00:26:25,275
And we want to ultimately take down, like, you know, the banks and all the viable
fiat currencies.

498
00:26:25,275 --> 00:26:36,275
It's kind of like, you know, if for some reason, for every store that, like, popped
up in your town, you needed to use a different currency to, like, pay that merchant.

499
00:26:36,275 --> 00:26:38,275
It would just get very cumbersome.

500
00:26:39,275 --> 00:26:40,275
Oh, you can use their wallet.

501
00:26:40,275 --> 00:26:41,275
You can get, like, their wallet.

502
00:26:41,275 --> 00:26:42,275
Fat wallet.

503
00:26:42,275 --> 00:26:43,275
What do you want?

504
00:26:44,275 --> 00:26:45,275
What do you want from a sidechain?

505
00:26:46,275 --> 00:26:50,275
I want, uh, I definitely want, like, you know, better privacy.

506
00:26:50,275 --> 00:26:53,275
Coinjoin is definitely, like, not the...

507
00:26:54,275 --> 00:26:55,275
I don't think Coinjoin is great.

508
00:26:55,275 --> 00:26:57,275
The Zcash, actually, the Z-address.

509
00:26:57,275 --> 00:26:58,275
You get one reusable Z-address.

510
00:26:59,275 --> 00:27:00,275
What do you want?

511
00:27:00,275 --> 00:27:01,275
One reusable address.

512
00:27:01,275 --> 00:27:05,275
But you understand that the Z-address, no one can tell that you're using it, because
no one knows which one is being used.

513
00:27:06,275 --> 00:27:08,275
It just seems like a non-problem.

514
00:27:08,275 --> 00:27:12,275
Like, I want this so I don't have to make it, so I can reuse addresses.

515
00:27:12,275 --> 00:27:14,275
I mean, there are so many problems with Coinjoin.

516
00:27:14,275 --> 00:27:17,275
We could take up the rest of our time here talking about them.

517
00:27:17,275 --> 00:27:19,275
But, uh, like...

518
00:27:19,275 --> 00:27:21,275
So you want, like, privacy.

519
00:27:21,275 --> 00:27:22,275
Yeah.

520
00:27:22,275 --> 00:27:23,275
Is there anything other...

521
00:27:23,275 --> 00:27:24,275
Do you want to...

522
00:27:24,275 --> 00:27:26,275
Would you, like, root stuff to become a sidechain?

523
00:27:26,275 --> 00:27:27,275
Yeah.

524
00:27:27,275 --> 00:27:28,275
Like, hold onto something?

525
00:27:28,275 --> 00:27:29,275
More trustless.

526
00:27:29,275 --> 00:27:30,275
Yeah.

527
00:27:30,275 --> 00:27:31,275
Sidechain.

528
00:27:31,275 --> 00:27:32,275
Yes.

529
00:27:32,275 --> 00:27:39,275
So you can use bitcoins in, like, many different types of smart contracts without
having to rely on federations.

530
00:27:39,275 --> 00:27:43,275
You could have, you know, smart wallets that have, like, spending units.

531
00:27:43,275 --> 00:27:45,275
Like, you can always, you know...

532
00:27:45,275 --> 00:27:51,275
Like, if your key was compromised, the attacker could only take a small amount of
your money, not all of your money.

533
00:27:51,275 --> 00:28:00,275
Like, there are lots of different, you know, kind of spending conditions that might
be interesting to be able to, you know, apply to your coins.

534
00:28:01,275 --> 00:28:03,275
That you couldn't do on Bitcoin today.

535
00:28:03,275 --> 00:28:09,275
Or, like, you know, every time somebody comes up with one of these cool new spending
conditions, do we want to have to soft fork?

536
00:28:09,275 --> 00:28:10,275
No.

537
00:28:10,275 --> 00:28:12,275
So we can just have a system...

538
00:28:12,275 --> 00:28:15,275
Kind of a lot of fun in 2017.

539
00:28:15,275 --> 00:28:24,275
We could just have a system where people can come up with these spending conditions,
and people can just opt into them freely without having to change it one way or
another.

540
00:28:24,275 --> 00:28:26,275
I think that's the value here.

541
00:28:26,275 --> 00:28:33,275
This is a funny joke about 2017, but it is hard to actually explain, like, in a way
that regular people who understand...

542
00:28:33,275 --> 00:28:40,275
Like, new people who understand the sheer amount of, like, hurt feelings and stress
and, like, people threatening each other.

543
00:28:40,275 --> 00:28:46,275
And then one guy hacked, like, a power plant and, like, took out power in, like, the
state of Arizona or something at one point.

544
00:28:46,275 --> 00:28:47,275
Really?

545
00:28:47,275 --> 00:28:48,275
Yeah.

546
00:28:48,275 --> 00:28:51,275
It was like a Bitcoin XT, like, crazy...

547
00:28:51,275 --> 00:28:53,275
Something weird happened with that.

548
00:28:54,275 --> 00:28:58,275
Was it, like, in, like, a veteran or, like, in the military or something?

549
00:28:58,275 --> 00:28:59,275
Some sort of Bitcoin cash guy.

550
00:28:59,275 --> 00:29:01,275
Something weird like that happened.

551
00:29:01,275 --> 00:29:03,275
So a lot of really crazy stuff was...

552
00:29:03,275 --> 00:29:05,275
It was not very pleasant at all.

553
00:29:05,275 --> 00:29:11,275
And it's just, you know, it's what you're relying on if you don't have the ability
to be able to use different chains for different people.

554
00:29:11,275 --> 00:29:15,275
And you're relying on everyone just kind of being similar enough to each other.

555
00:29:15,275 --> 00:29:17,275
But that's not really, you know, going to happen.

556
00:29:17,275 --> 00:29:19,275
People are just very different.

557
00:29:19,275 --> 00:29:23,275
Not only people are very different, but also, of course, different transactions are
different.

558
00:29:23,275 --> 00:29:31,275
So, you know, like, the coffee transaction is very different than, you know, when
you're fleeing China for your life or something.

559
00:29:31,275 --> 00:29:34,275
And you have to leave all your possessions behind.

560
00:29:34,275 --> 00:29:36,275
And you can, like, memorize a 12-word C-blog.

561
00:29:36,275 --> 00:29:38,275
That's very different than the coffee transaction.

562
00:29:38,275 --> 00:29:39,275
Yeah.

563
00:29:39,275 --> 00:29:46,275
So, I think you're kind of bringing up an interesting kind of meta-commentary about
sovereignty.

564
00:29:46,275 --> 00:29:50,275
And, like, sovereignty and what do you call it?

565
00:29:50,275 --> 00:30:00,275
Like, you know, each of these roll-ups, to some extent, you're kind of saying, like,
you make a roll-up so you can set the rules of what happens on that roll-up, right?

566
00:30:00,275 --> 00:30:02,275
And so it's like, okay, well, that's kind of nice.

567
00:30:02,275 --> 00:30:07,275
You can kind of have your own little sovereign system, which has, like, this nice
tie to Bitcoin.

568
00:30:07,275 --> 00:30:12,275
But it's not actually, like, you can do your own rules, right?

569
00:30:12,275 --> 00:30:15,275
So you can, like, use, like, the sound money that we're building on Bitcoin.

570
00:30:15,275 --> 00:30:18,275
And you can have your own sovereign system on top of that.

571
00:30:18,275 --> 00:30:22,275
And it's kind of like, I think this is, like, sort of, like, I don't know, maybe a
little political here.

572
00:30:22,275 --> 00:30:32,275
But I think this, like, kind of matched an interesting problem in terms of
sovereignty in general, like, in governance, in terms of, like, okay, like, yeah, I
want to be, like, a self-sovereign individual.

573
00:30:32,275 --> 00:30:40,275
But, like, when you do that with, like, a money or a system, you lose the network
effects of, like, being able to transact across whatever, right?

574
00:30:40,275 --> 00:30:54,275
So if you build a roll-up or a side-by-side system where you have a certain amount
of sovereignty, like, over and above, like, maybe the larger system you're tied to,
then the problem is, though, you need people to participate in that sidechain in
order to have value in, like, transacting them, right?

575
00:30:54,275 --> 00:31:07,275
For the most part, like, when you build these side systems, like, the sovereignty
only extends to, yeah, maybe it's your own thing, but you're the only one over
there, like, the value of that is being able to, like, use it as a system to, like,
transact with other people, like, further lower, right?

576
00:31:07,275 --> 00:31:11,275
So, like, there is, I think, kind of, yeah, there's something to do with that
problem.

577
00:31:11,275 --> 00:31:14,275
Hey, guys, could you guys just be, like, a little quieter?

578
00:31:14,275 --> 00:31:15,275
Sorry.

579
00:31:15,275 --> 00:31:16,275
Thank you.

580
00:31:16,275 --> 00:31:17,275
I think it depends.

581
00:31:17,275 --> 00:31:22,275
Like, there are some applications that are, like, you can call them, like, maybe we
should be a little quieter.

582
00:31:22,275 --> 00:31:31,275
There are some applications that you can call, like, one-player applications where
you don't, it doesn't really depend on, like, a network effect.

583
00:31:31,275 --> 00:31:34,275
For example, like a wallet, right?

584
00:31:34,275 --> 00:31:35,275
Yeah.

585
00:31:35,275 --> 00:32:03,275
Like, you could move your coins over to, like, a vault chain, and you could be the
only user, and, like, it doesn't actually matter if there aren't other users there
because you can encumber your coins in this vault, and then whenever you want to pay
somebody who's on layer one or a different roll-up, then you just move your coins
out of the vault and spend them, you know, to a layer one address or, you know, do,
like, some cross-roll-up, like, atomic swap thing to pay somebody else.

586
00:32:03,275 --> 00:32:10,275
Like, there, I think there's, yeah, there's still some utility there, but certainly
there's other types of applications.

587
00:32:10,275 --> 00:32:16,275
Yeah, they have network effects, and so you need to get people to, like, move their
coins over there and start using it.

588
00:32:16,275 --> 00:32:20,275
Like, the privacy thing, that's definitely, you know, it depends on network effects.

589
00:32:20,275 --> 00:32:21,275
Right.

590
00:32:22,275 --> 00:32:31,275
You know, if you can't, if no one else is using it, then your privacy becomes a
little bit limited because then you have to move your coins out of the privacy
system every time you're going to pay somebody.

591
00:32:31,275 --> 00:32:43,275
So, you don't, like, that's not completely useless, but it's still, you know, it's
still, of course, better if you can keep your coins and pay within the privacy
system, so.

592
00:32:43,275 --> 00:32:45,275
I've got a question for John.

593
00:32:45,275 --> 00:32:46,275
I think it's for John.

594
00:32:46,275 --> 00:32:47,275
Okay.

595
00:32:47,275 --> 00:32:51,275
It seems like Drivechains are pretty much ready to go in terms of code.

596
00:32:51,275 --> 00:33:00,275
And it seems like roll-ups aren't, or at least I'm not aware of anyone who's written
a start-to-verify-on-code or proposed, like, this is the one we should implement.

597
00:33:00,275 --> 00:33:01,275
Oh, yeah.

598
00:33:01,275 --> 00:33:04,275
They're probably miles apart in terms of readiness.

599
00:33:04,275 --> 00:33:05,275
Yeah.

600
00:33:05,275 --> 00:33:06,275
Oh, okay.

601
00:33:06,275 --> 00:33:07,275
I thought—

602
00:33:07,275 --> 00:33:08,275
There you go.

603
00:33:08,275 --> 00:33:10,275
You got a perfect, short answer to your question.

604
00:33:10,275 --> 00:33:11,275
Yeah.

605
00:33:12,275 --> 00:33:14,275
I think they all feel like that, too.

606
00:33:14,275 --> 00:33:19,275
I think we have a question.

607
00:33:19,275 --> 00:33:20,275
I have a question.

608
00:33:20,275 --> 00:33:21,275
We have a question.

609
00:33:21,275 --> 00:33:22,275
Yeah.

610
00:33:22,275 --> 00:33:24,275
Michael, I was always ready to ask that question.

611
00:33:24,275 --> 00:33:25,275
Sure.

612
00:33:25,275 --> 00:33:28,275
So, I guess, I'm from Fort Worth, actually, in Texas, and I took one class.

613
00:33:28,275 --> 00:33:34,275
And so, we don't really know as much as, you know, as you guys are talking, so it's
weird to know.

614
00:33:35,275 --> 00:33:40,275
But did you kind of run into, like, some of the, like, Layer 2 technologies?

615
00:33:40,275 --> 00:33:42,275
Like, I know there's Lightning and SpaceChain.

616
00:33:42,275 --> 00:33:44,275
Like, what are the differences?

617
00:33:44,275 --> 00:33:46,275
Like, why do people want to know?

618
00:33:46,275 --> 00:33:48,275
Why do I want to know?

619
00:33:48,275 --> 00:33:51,275
Well, SpaceChain is not a Layer 2.

620
00:33:51,275 --> 00:33:52,275
Okay.

621
00:33:52,275 --> 00:33:54,275
So, let me repeat the question.

622
00:33:54,275 --> 00:33:58,275
The question was, can't we just name a bunch of Layer 2s with, like, a bullet point
about a few?

623
00:33:58,275 --> 00:33:59,275
Okay.

624
00:33:59,275 --> 00:34:03,275
So, it's funny, because Lightning takes mostly the air out of the room, and it's
mostly, like, energy with Lightning.

625
00:34:04,275 --> 00:34:05,275
Three cheers for Lightning.

626
00:34:05,275 --> 00:34:07,275
Lightning is, yeah, what is Lightning?

627
00:34:07,275 --> 00:34:11,275
Lightning is a payment channel Layer 2, right?

628
00:34:11,275 --> 00:34:14,275
You multi-signally share outputs on Layer 1.

629
00:34:14,275 --> 00:34:22,275
You and a friend, you broadcast this money that you share, and before you agree that
the money is in there,

630
00:34:22,275 --> 00:34:27,275
you sign the funding transaction and the transaction is taking the money out.

631
00:34:27,275 --> 00:34:30,275
They require both of your permission.

632
00:34:30,275 --> 00:34:33,275
And then you update those, and then you delete all the states.

633
00:34:33,275 --> 00:34:34,275
Yeah.

634
00:34:34,275 --> 00:34:35,275
That's the deal we are?

635
00:34:35,275 --> 00:34:37,275
The general idea is...

636
00:34:37,275 --> 00:34:39,275
I've got a decent head in the universe.

637
00:34:39,275 --> 00:34:41,275
I'm attached, so...

638
00:34:41,275 --> 00:34:46,275
I think the general idea is that you've got, like, a bunch of two pairs of people
with money,

639
00:34:46,275 --> 00:34:51,275
and then you network them together, and then payments can move from each of these
little shared accounts.

640
00:34:51,275 --> 00:34:55,275
You, like, kind of network the shared accounts together to channels,

641
00:34:55,275 --> 00:34:57,275
and then you have to network the channels together,

642
00:34:57,275 --> 00:35:03,275
and then when payments flow through it, they flow through these, like, little
accounts that people have made,

643
00:35:03,275 --> 00:35:06,275
and you, like, publish where they are, and then you find routes.

644
00:35:06,275 --> 00:35:07,275
If you have a routing problem...

645
00:35:07,275 --> 00:35:09,275
I actually don't look at the routing, I look at the channels.

646
00:35:09,275 --> 00:35:11,275
I think I should do the Lightning network part.

647
00:35:11,275 --> 00:35:19,275
I think the one important detail I was missing here is that all of these
transactions that are happening in the Lightning network

648
00:35:19,275 --> 00:35:24,275
are off-chain, so these are actually unconfirmed Bitcoin transactions,

649
00:35:24,275 --> 00:35:29,275
but the most recent recipient of one of these unconfirmed Bitcoin transactions

650
00:35:29,275 --> 00:35:35,275
can always take it to Layer 1 to actually, like, cash it in for the Bitcoin that it
represents, right?

651
00:35:35,275 --> 00:35:36,275
Yeah.

652
00:35:36,275 --> 00:35:41,275
It's like a bar tab where, like, you have your card, and they can run it at any
time,

653
00:35:41,275 --> 00:35:47,275
but they just wait, and you say, okay, I need another, you know, another great piece
of rock.

654
00:35:47,275 --> 00:35:50,275
So what were the other examples that we had?

655
00:35:51,275 --> 00:35:53,275
I think there's also state chains.

656
00:35:53,275 --> 00:35:54,275
State chains.

657
00:35:54,275 --> 00:35:56,275
It's very obscure, but it's real.

658
00:35:56,275 --> 00:35:58,275
It involves the UTXOs.

659
00:35:58,275 --> 00:36:04,275
There's a group of people that's moving the UTXO around, and there's, like, a
history of it.

660
00:36:04,275 --> 00:36:06,275
A coin of value cannot change.

661
00:36:06,275 --> 00:36:09,275
So actually, they're not trading the UTXOs, they're trading the keys.

662
00:36:09,275 --> 00:36:10,275
Yeah.

663
00:36:10,275 --> 00:36:11,275
That's a key, right?

664
00:36:11,275 --> 00:36:13,275
That's a key, but it's the ownership of the UTXO.

665
00:36:13,275 --> 00:36:16,275
Isn't that kind of like the, like, a good, I think, real-world example?

666
00:36:16,275 --> 00:36:19,275
Like, what are those, like, the coin type, the little off-the-key thing, you know?

667
00:36:19,275 --> 00:36:20,275
Open dime.

668
00:36:20,275 --> 00:36:21,275
Open dime.

669
00:36:21,275 --> 00:36:22,275
There's a coin there, too.

670
00:36:22,275 --> 00:36:25,275
Yeah, but that's the same thing as, like, the state chain.

671
00:36:25,275 --> 00:36:26,275
It is.

672
00:36:26,275 --> 00:36:29,275
Well, in the case of state chains, you need a multi-sig still.

673
00:36:29,275 --> 00:36:33,275
So it's like the state chain entity and you have a multi-sig together,

674
00:36:33,275 --> 00:36:42,275
and then you transfer the key to the person you're trying to, like, want your key to
the person that you're trying to pay,

675
00:36:43,275 --> 00:36:50,275
and then the state chain will, like, co-sign that so that, you know, now the
multi-sig has, like, moved over to the new person.

676
00:36:50,275 --> 00:36:51,275
Right.

677
00:36:51,275 --> 00:36:59,275
And then the state chain entity promises, I think it promises, not to sign any
transactions from any of the previous owners of the key.

678
00:36:59,275 --> 00:37:05,275
They'll only co-sign transactions from the most recent owner of the key.

679
00:37:05,275 --> 00:37:12,275
I mean, what if someone, like, an old owner, can't they, like, maybe trick the
central binding party into thinking they're, like, the current most recent?

680
00:37:12,275 --> 00:37:15,275
No, we have to only give people a point for each.

681
00:37:15,275 --> 00:37:16,275
Oh, right, yeah.

682
00:37:16,275 --> 00:37:17,275
Okay, sorry.

683
00:37:17,275 --> 00:37:22,275
No, because they're just keeping track of, like, who they most recently co-signed
the key over to.

684
00:37:22,275 --> 00:37:23,275
Oh, I see.

685
00:37:23,275 --> 00:37:24,275
So they have, like, another key.

686
00:37:24,275 --> 00:37:25,275
Another key.

687
00:37:25,275 --> 00:37:27,275
So as long as they don't lose state, you're okay, I guess.

688
00:37:27,275 --> 00:37:32,275
Yeah, if their database crashes and they have no backups, then that could maybe be
disastrous.

689
00:37:32,275 --> 00:37:34,275
And for the state chain, okay.

690
00:37:34,275 --> 00:37:45,275
But in practice, so, like, Connors Block developed the implementation of this, and
they say that they have an HSM that is basically doing the co-signing.

691
00:37:45,275 --> 00:37:49,275
So it's basically just an HSM.

692
00:37:49,275 --> 00:37:51,275
Everyone says that you can't use an HSM.

693
00:37:51,275 --> 00:37:53,275
I'm not using an HSM.

694
00:37:53,275 --> 00:37:55,275
You might be able to do remote attestation.

695
00:37:55,275 --> 00:37:58,275
Speaking of that, the liquid is also a Layer 2.

696
00:37:58,275 --> 00:38:00,275
They also said they had HSMs.

697
00:38:00,275 --> 00:38:01,275
Does anyone know that they do?

698
00:38:01,275 --> 00:38:03,275
I don't consider it a Layer 2.

699
00:38:03,275 --> 00:38:08,275
I haven't specifically seen the boxes, but I think that, like, now she's crying.

700
00:38:08,275 --> 00:38:10,275
She's about boxes having to be moved around.

701
00:38:10,275 --> 00:38:13,275
You know, like, shipping them internationally, like, a box full of, like,
explosives.

702
00:38:13,275 --> 00:38:14,275
Yeah, yeah.

703
00:38:14,275 --> 00:38:16,275
You know, it's, like, it's nasty.

704
00:38:16,275 --> 00:38:18,275
I'd like to know how they get them.

705
00:38:18,275 --> 00:38:22,275
Core Lightning has a file they call HSM, and that's where you store your private
keys.

706
00:38:22,275 --> 00:38:25,275
So I think that's probably what Link was doing.

707
00:38:25,275 --> 00:38:27,275
HSM.txt.

708
00:38:27,275 --> 00:38:29,275
It's like mailboxes.

709
00:38:29,275 --> 00:38:31,275
They're, like, you know, there's like eight of them.

710
00:38:32,275 --> 00:38:36,275
There's, like, you know, firmware designers that, like, we're devising on and stuff.

711
00:38:36,275 --> 00:38:40,275
So let's say maybe sidechains are a Layer 2.

712
00:38:40,275 --> 00:38:41,275
I don't think they are.

713
00:38:41,275 --> 00:38:42,275
Sidechains are a Layer 2.

714
00:38:42,275 --> 00:38:43,275
I don't think they are.

715
00:38:43,275 --> 00:38:46,275
Just for showing you a Layer 2, it's just, like, you go on Coinbase, and then you
say,

716
00:38:46,275 --> 00:38:47,275
what's it called?

717
00:38:47,275 --> 00:38:49,275
Coinbase Commerce or something, or whatever.

718
00:38:49,275 --> 00:38:50,275
Kraken has a version of this, too, right?

719
00:38:50,275 --> 00:38:54,275
It's, like, you go online, and you can, like, you can, like, buy things with your
coin,

720
00:38:54,275 --> 00:38:55,275
and it's, like, linked.

721
00:38:55,275 --> 00:38:56,275
You could pay at it, too.

722
00:38:56,275 --> 00:38:57,275
Like, there's a credit card.

723
00:38:57,275 --> 00:39:01,275
You would, like, buy stuff there, and it would, like, debit your account to free.

724
00:39:01,275 --> 00:39:02,275
Yeah.

725
00:39:02,275 --> 00:39:06,275
And that was managed by a different, managed by, like, a company that holds all the
funds,

726
00:39:06,275 --> 00:39:07,275
so it's much more like that.

727
00:39:07,275 --> 00:39:09,275
Or open down to a Layer 2.

728
00:39:09,275 --> 00:39:11,275
Open down to a Layer 2, a physical Layer 2, yeah.

729
00:39:11,275 --> 00:39:12,275
Yeah.

730
00:39:12,275 --> 00:39:15,275
Because you change hands in the physical world, and then you bring it back down to
Layer 1

731
00:39:15,275 --> 00:39:16,275
when you redeem it.

732
00:39:16,275 --> 00:39:17,275
Spend it, yeah.

733
00:39:17,275 --> 00:39:18,275
I would say.

734
00:39:18,275 --> 00:39:20,275
There's also, so I have one, too, which is this BIP300.

735
00:39:20,275 --> 00:39:26,275
This is Layer 2 idea, where the coins go into this script that it can be slowly
unlocked

736
00:39:26,275 --> 00:39:28,275
by the miners, but only very, very, very slowly.

737
00:39:28,275 --> 00:39:33,275
You have to announce where it's going first, and you, like, slowly pull the money
out,

738
00:39:33,275 --> 00:39:36,275
and then direct for, like, three to six months, and wherever you say it's going to
go.

739
00:39:36,275 --> 00:39:42,275
So in that way, it's kind of like the miners have the mining process as custody of
the

740
00:39:42,275 --> 00:39:48,275
funds, but the miners gain transaction fees from the rival blockchains being used,
the

741
00:39:48,275 --> 00:39:54,275
upper system being used through merge mining, which is something else that I didn't
invent

742
00:39:54,275 --> 00:39:57,275
by Satoshi, but I take advantage of.

743
00:39:57,275 --> 00:40:03,275
And then, also, the coin itself has more value as a result of being, this is the
theory,

744
00:40:03,275 --> 00:40:06,275
the coin has more value as a result of being useful in new ways.

745
00:40:06,275 --> 00:40:11,275
So they kind of only, the theory is for certain types of things, they only withdraw
the funds

746
00:40:11,275 --> 00:40:12,275
accurately.

747
00:40:12,275 --> 00:40:13,275
Yeah.

748
00:40:13,275 --> 00:40:15,275
And then there's Emigitaro's teaching.

749
00:40:15,275 --> 00:40:17,275
I'm sorry, were you going to say something?

750
00:40:17,275 --> 00:40:18,275
Teaching?

751
00:40:18,275 --> 00:40:22,275
Yeah, I don't know what happened to this idea, but it was like this secure, whatever
execution

752
00:40:22,275 --> 00:40:27,275
environment-like thing, and it's like this weirdo thing, but it is a layer two,
right?

753
00:40:27,275 --> 00:40:30,275
What's a bullet point for roll-ups?

754
00:40:30,275 --> 00:40:39,275
Yeah, so a roll-up is like a separate blockchain that has a secure bridge with a
parent blockchain.

755
00:40:39,275 --> 00:40:42,275
Let's take, say, Bitcoin's a parent blockchain.

756
00:40:42,275 --> 00:40:48,275
Users can deposit their funds into a smart contract on Bitcoin layer one.

757
00:40:48,275 --> 00:40:52,275
The Bitcoin will appear in the roll-up chain on layer two.

758
00:40:52,275 --> 00:40:58,275
And then when they want to make a transaction, that gets put into a block, a roll-up
block,

759
00:40:58,275 --> 00:41:04,275
and then the roll-up block gets, the data of that roll-up block gets put into a
Bitcoin

760
00:41:04,275 --> 00:41:05,275
block.

761
00:41:05,275 --> 00:41:08,275
In a very compressed way.

762
00:41:08,275 --> 00:41:13,275
Yeah, in a very compressed way, along with a validity proof that proves the validity

763
00:41:13,275 --> 00:41:14,275
of that block.

764
00:41:15,275 --> 00:41:22,275
And what the validity proof provides is a cryptographic guarantee that nobody can
steal

765
00:41:22,275 --> 00:41:28,275
your money out of the roll-up, because they can't fake a cryptographic proof that
says

766
00:41:28,275 --> 00:41:32,275
actually it's their money and they're taking it out of the roll-up.

767
00:41:32,275 --> 00:41:36,275
So you can move your Bitcoin back and forth between Bitcoin blockchain and this
roll-up

768
00:41:36,275 --> 00:41:39,275
blockchain securely.

769
00:41:39,275 --> 00:41:47,275
And the last benefit of this design is that every roll-up block confirmation is
equivalent

770
00:41:47,275 --> 00:41:51,275
in security to a Bitcoin layer one block confirmation.

771
00:41:51,275 --> 00:41:57,275
So it's just as difficult to double spend transactions on the roll-up as it is to
double

772
00:41:57,275 --> 00:41:59,275
spend transactions on Bitcoin layer one.

773
00:41:59,275 --> 00:42:06,275
So all of those features combined mean that roll-ups are fully trustless.

774
00:42:06,275 --> 00:42:12,275
There's no new trust assumptions or security degradation for using a validity
roll-up.

775
00:42:12,275 --> 00:42:14,275
I have a question from the audience though.

776
00:42:14,275 --> 00:42:16,275
Except for a single sequencer, right?

777
00:42:16,275 --> 00:42:21,275
No, even if there's a single sequencer, all those coins still hold.

778
00:42:21,275 --> 00:42:24,275
The question was except for a single sequencer.

779
00:42:24,275 --> 00:42:27,275
Yes, yes, thanks.

780
00:42:27,275 --> 00:42:29,275
Any other audience questions?

781
00:42:29,275 --> 00:42:30,275
Yes.

782
00:42:30,275 --> 00:42:33,275
What are the risks of a single sequencer?

783
00:42:33,275 --> 00:42:36,275
The question is, what is the risk of a single sequencer?

784
00:42:36,275 --> 00:42:40,275
So in that case, you have a liveness.

785
00:42:40,275 --> 00:42:44,275
It's a trade-off of liveness for the roll-up.

786
00:42:44,275 --> 00:42:51,275
So if there's a single sequencer, they shut down or get shut down or whatever.

787
00:42:51,275 --> 00:42:59,275
The roll-up might stop producing new blocks if there's no way to replace that single
sequencer.

788
00:42:59,275 --> 00:43:06,275
But even in that case, users can still make a transaction on layer one to get their
funds out of the roll-up.

789
00:43:06,275 --> 00:43:12,275
So you don't lose security in the sense that you're not going to lose your money,

790
00:43:12,275 --> 00:43:15,275
but you wouldn't be able to use that roll-up anymore.

791
00:43:15,275 --> 00:43:18,275
Is there any other questions?

792
00:43:18,275 --> 00:43:19,275
We have to.

793
00:43:19,275 --> 00:43:21,275
The audience outweighs the…

794
00:43:21,275 --> 00:43:22,275
All right.

795
00:43:22,275 --> 00:43:24,275
So these are students or whatever.

796
00:43:24,275 --> 00:43:25,275
Michael, is it you?

797
00:43:25,275 --> 00:43:26,275
It's Clay.

798
00:43:26,275 --> 00:43:27,275
Yeah.

799
00:43:27,275 --> 00:43:28,275
He'll be able to answer questions.

800
00:43:28,275 --> 00:43:29,275
Here, give us a question.

801
00:43:29,275 --> 00:43:30,275
Yeah.

802
00:43:30,275 --> 00:43:31,275
Just a quick follow-up.

803
00:43:31,275 --> 00:43:37,275
A quick follow-up is, in terms of censorship risk, like Celestia, where you have
like an enforced transaction,

804
00:43:37,275 --> 00:43:42,275
you like, some of that works, so like, how do you deal with the censorship risk?

805
00:43:42,275 --> 00:43:51,275
So the question is, how do the validity roll-up deal with censorship risk if there's
a single sequencer?

806
00:43:51,275 --> 00:44:01,275
And so this would be a question of, you know, what if the single sequencer is like
not allowing your transaction into a roll-off lock?

807
00:44:01,275 --> 00:44:08,275
Well, you could have a rule that says, like, there's an inbox on layer one,

808
00:44:08,275 --> 00:44:18,275
and if you put your transaction into that inbox, it has to be included in a roll-off
lock within a certain number of blocks or something like that,

809
00:44:18,275 --> 00:44:22,275
or else maybe the sequencer will get punished in some way.

810
00:44:22,275 --> 00:44:24,275
And so this is the idea.

811
00:44:24,275 --> 00:44:30,275
I think, you know, in Ethereum role designs, they call this like the priority inbox.

812
00:44:30,275 --> 00:44:37,275
And so like the roll-up block producer couldn't produce a block without including
that transaction.

813
00:44:37,275 --> 00:44:40,275
That's like one option for dealing with it.

814
00:44:40,275 --> 00:44:46,275
The other option is, as I mentioned before, if the roll-up sequencer or block
producer is uncooperative,

815
00:44:46,275 --> 00:44:53,275
you could just do a transaction on layer one to get your funds out and move to a
roll-up that's not trying to censor you.

816
00:44:53,275 --> 00:45:01,275
It seems like there are a lot of Solidity contracts that have zero-knowledge proof
systems in them,

817
00:45:02,275 --> 00:45:07,275
but how hard would it be to convert one of those over to proof?

818
00:45:07,275 --> 00:45:09,275
Say, let's use this one for Bitcoin.

819
00:45:09,275 --> 00:45:11,275
Oh, yeah, it wouldn't really translate.

820
00:45:11,275 --> 00:45:17,275
You would have to just totally rebuild it for the script context.

821
00:45:17,275 --> 00:45:20,275
But they're building them all the time. They're putting up a new one every week.

822
00:45:20,275 --> 00:45:22,275
We just have a common one.

823
00:45:22,275 --> 00:45:25,275
It seems like we could just hire some of them to write one for us, right?

824
00:45:25,275 --> 00:45:36,275
I think you could make some similar, like take a particular logic and see how
they're dealing with all the edge cases

825
00:45:36,275 --> 00:45:43,275
and try to translate that into a Bitcoin context, but it's not like you can build a
Solidity-to-script transpiler.

826
00:45:43,275 --> 00:45:46,275
I think it's just there's a lot more.

827
00:45:46,275 --> 00:45:52,275
But it seems like they don't find it difficult to write these ZK-proof verifiers.

828
00:45:53,275 --> 00:45:55,275
Is it hard for us to write them?

829
00:45:55,275 --> 00:45:58,275
Why isn't there one yet?

830
00:45:58,275 --> 00:46:01,275
I think it's just a matter of interest and awareness.

831
00:46:01,275 --> 00:46:06,275
There's a lot of Bitcoin developers that are already working on it in their own
families.

832
00:46:06,275 --> 00:46:08,275
We don't have any new people.

833
00:46:08,275 --> 00:46:10,275
There are a number of new people working on it now.

834
00:46:10,275 --> 00:46:14,275
Like the guy yesterday that presented Simanta, his team is working on it.

835
00:46:14,275 --> 00:46:18,275
The Lambda class I mentioned earlier, they're working on it.

836
00:46:18,275 --> 00:46:22,275
I think there's a third team out there that's working on it.

837
00:46:22,275 --> 00:46:24,275
People are working on it.

838
00:46:24,275 --> 00:46:26,275
It's about awareness.

839
00:46:26,275 --> 00:46:32,275
This conference and the MIT Bitcoin conference were the first, just like last
weekend, were the first conferences ever

840
00:46:32,275 --> 00:46:35,275
to feature a talk about the Libby role of some Bitcoin.

841
00:46:35,275 --> 00:46:39,275
So it's just this very, very new idea in the Bitcoin community.

842
00:46:39,275 --> 00:46:41,275
You had questions?

843
00:46:41,275 --> 00:46:48,275
What I understand from the Layer 2 network is that one of its primary advantages is
that it frees up the main network.

844
00:46:48,275 --> 00:46:54,275
I know this is a little bit of a controversial topic, so what are your thoughts on
this?

845
00:46:54,275 --> 00:46:59,275
It seems like rather than free up the network, it adds more stuff.

846
00:46:59,275 --> 00:47:06,275
The question was Layer 2s move transactions into the off-chain, right?

847
00:47:06,275 --> 00:47:09,275
So it kind of frees up the main blockchain.

848
00:47:09,275 --> 00:47:12,275
You can do more stuff on it, so you have less transaction traffic.

849
00:47:12,275 --> 00:47:18,275
What do you think of something in a project like Ordinals, where all of a sudden
it's adding lots of data?

850
00:47:18,275 --> 00:47:20,275
It's almost doing the opposite.

851
00:47:20,275 --> 00:47:22,275
It's adding all the data to a block.

852
00:47:22,275 --> 00:47:25,275
So suddenly you've got lots of stuff going in the blocks.

853
00:47:25,275 --> 00:47:27,275
How does that work?

854
00:47:27,275 --> 00:47:30,275
I think I'm going to be a little bit pedantic here and be like,

855
00:47:30,275 --> 00:47:33,275
Ordinals don't have anything to do with what's going in the blocks.

856
00:47:33,275 --> 00:47:35,275
The thing it does is call descriptions.

857
00:47:35,275 --> 00:47:42,275
It's definitely maybe a little bit of an important distinction, but Ordinals are
just a numbering system.

858
00:47:42,275 --> 00:47:45,275
They literally have nothing to do with data in the blocks or whatever.

859
00:47:45,275 --> 00:47:49,275
It's just additional numbers that they're putting onto 2Gs.

860
00:47:49,275 --> 00:47:53,275
And inscriptions are where you're taking a bunch of data, you're putting it into a
block,

861
00:47:53,275 --> 00:47:55,275
and saying it belongs to this number.

862
00:47:55,275 --> 00:47:58,275
And then you can trade the number, and that means you own the thing.

863
00:47:58,275 --> 00:48:00,275
Anyways, kind of silly.

864
00:48:00,275 --> 00:48:10,275
I would say that the way the block space fee market is supposed to work,

865
00:48:10,275 --> 00:48:12,275
and is designed to work on Bitcoin,

866
00:48:12,275 --> 00:48:22,275
is that things that are valuable to people will be paid for at the rate at which
their value is ascertained.

867
00:48:22,275 --> 00:48:27,275
So when you start having competition, let's say all these projects,

868
00:48:27,275 --> 00:48:31,275
a lot of these projects that we're talking about haven't launched, aren't at
operational scale.

869
00:48:31,275 --> 00:48:33,275
Maybe they're just the concept phase.

870
00:48:33,275 --> 00:48:37,275
But all of them, to some extent, use block space to move their chains forward.

871
00:48:37,275 --> 00:48:40,275
I think the exception is this.

872
00:48:40,275 --> 00:48:43,275
It's a fixed amount. There's no margin of space.

873
00:48:43,275 --> 00:48:44,275
Yeah, okay.

874
00:48:44,275 --> 00:48:53,275
But to a certain extent, every single Layer 2 proposal has a different requirement
on block space,

875
00:48:53,275 --> 00:48:55,275
but they all require block space.

876
00:48:55,275 --> 00:48:58,275
So then you get competition, right?

877
00:48:58,275 --> 00:49:03,275
Is your chain producing enough value for the people that are using it

878
00:49:03,275 --> 00:49:08,275
to justify the cost of continuing to consume Bitcoin block space?

879
00:49:08,275 --> 00:49:14,275
And so if you build a protocol which is kind of expensive in terms of block space
requirements,

880
00:49:14,275 --> 00:49:16,152
I would say Lightning is like...

881
00:49:16,152 --> 00:49:20,152
very expensive in terms of block space requirements across the network.

882
00:49:20,152 --> 00:49:27,152
Is that going to continue to provide enough value to keep it moving in the system or
whatever?

883
00:49:27,152 --> 00:49:29,152
What do you guys think?

884
00:49:29,152 --> 00:49:32,152
Depth to inscriptions. Inscriptions are the worst.

885
00:49:32,152 --> 00:49:36,152
I think it would be better for everyone if they... it's like an example of the
sidechain idea,

886
00:49:36,152 --> 00:49:40,152
where people are different, some people are interested in that, other people do not
like it.

887
00:49:40,152 --> 00:49:45,152
So it would be better for everyone if you carved out your own chain and you put them
all there

888
00:49:45,152 --> 00:49:50,152
and then the people who want them can hang around with them and the people who
aren't bothered by them.

889
00:49:50,152 --> 00:49:56,152
I do think part of the reason... it's hard to explain all the cultural factors that
lead up to this particular phenomenon

890
00:49:56,152 --> 00:50:03,152
because I think part of it is certainly Udi and Eric Wall and others just enjoy
trolling the people

891
00:50:03,152 --> 00:50:06,152
who never took security by their own.

892
00:50:06,152 --> 00:50:11,152
If you want to talk about stamps, which seems more overtly trollish.

893
00:50:11,152 --> 00:50:14,152
It's more than those inscriptions that cannot be pruned.

894
00:50:14,152 --> 00:50:21,152
So they are just deliberately going out of their way to graffiti the top of Trump
Tower or something.

895
00:50:21,152 --> 00:50:26,152
The question was about stamps. Does anyone know what stamps is?

896
00:50:26,152 --> 00:50:31,152
Sort of what portals are? If you're going to do it, you're going to do it that way
because it's cheaper

897
00:50:31,152 --> 00:50:33,152
and it sort of makes sense and you can prune it.

898
00:50:33,152 --> 00:50:37,152
But then stamps is like, no, we're going to intentionally make it unprunable

899
00:50:37,152 --> 00:50:39,152
and make it in all these multi-sigs.

900
00:50:39,152 --> 00:50:44,152
I don't think anyone's done it yet, but you could make one of those keys actually
spendable and unspendable

901
00:50:44,152 --> 00:50:47,152
so if someone tries to prune it, it'll fork off the network.

902
00:50:47,152 --> 00:50:50,152
I mean, no one's done this, but you could.

903
00:50:50,152 --> 00:50:52,152
So it's this kind of...

904
00:50:52,152 --> 00:50:54,152
Spiteful description.

905
00:50:54,152 --> 00:50:56,152
Yeah, you're trying to make it bad.

906
00:50:56,152 --> 00:50:58,152
Part of the, you know,

907
00:50:58,152 --> 00:51:05,152
unhealthy atmosphere we've created over years of block sizes and working online.

908
00:51:05,152 --> 00:51:10,152
Well, one of the big differences between like Casey and like the Mike in Space guy
or whatever

909
00:51:10,152 --> 00:51:13,152
is that like, if you're like, I mean, all of you guys know this, right?

910
00:51:13,152 --> 00:51:17,152
I'm like the thing that can grow unbounded that really annoys Bitcoin

911
00:51:17,152 --> 00:51:20,152
and like makes it kind of annoying as like a dev and as like an onboarding people

912
00:51:20,152 --> 00:51:25,152
is the size of the UTXO set of just like, it can grow unbounded, right?

913
00:51:25,152 --> 00:51:28,152
You get UTXO or whatever, but that's like a, you know, it's like a...

914
00:51:28,152 --> 00:51:32,152
It's one of those things where it's like, hey, they know what they're doing and they
know...

915
00:51:32,152 --> 00:51:35,152
Because like that's what all the stuff that Casey did was like,

916
00:51:35,152 --> 00:51:40,152
how do I make these inscription things in such a way that I don't grow the UTXO set
unbounded?

917
00:51:40,152 --> 00:51:44,152
He was like, well, I have like this ordinals thing where it's like Bitcoin needs to
have no knowledge of it

918
00:51:44,152 --> 00:51:47,152
and we're just going to apply a way that we can move these things,

919
00:51:47,152 --> 00:51:50,152
but you only write it once and it never expands the UTXO set, right?

920
00:51:50,152 --> 00:51:51,152
That's like a big...

921
00:51:51,152 --> 00:51:54,152
We can sort of continue in that direction even further if we wanted to.

922
00:51:54,152 --> 00:51:58,152
We could say, well, I only put the hash of the image on the screen.

923
00:51:58,152 --> 00:52:02,152
Yeah, one other cool thing in terms of like the engineering that went into the
ordinal scripts,

924
00:52:02,152 --> 00:52:05,152
I mean, the inscription scripts, I think it's really cool,

925
00:52:05,152 --> 00:52:09,152
is they're built such that any of the data that's included for the object

926
00:52:09,152 --> 00:52:13,152
is not ever executed by any of the nodes that sees it.

927
00:52:13,152 --> 00:52:16,152
So there's like, it doesn't matter what you put in it, it's never really even...

928
00:52:16,152 --> 00:52:19,152
I think you have to load it into memory in terms of like whatever,

929
00:52:19,152 --> 00:52:22,152
but it never actually gets executed.

930
00:52:22,152 --> 00:52:27,152
The script is constructed such that execution stops before you get to where it is.

931
00:52:27,152 --> 00:52:31,152
So from a computation standpoint, they're very well designed.

932
00:52:31,152 --> 00:52:37,152
It's a very well-engineered script object compared to what anyone else is doing, I
think.

933
00:52:37,152 --> 00:52:41,152
It's over-engineered garbage. You should suck more than that.

934
00:52:41,152 --> 00:52:46,152
I think we've got time for maybe one more question on Layer 2 stuff,

935
00:52:46,152 --> 00:52:50,152
and then we'll wrap it, and then we'll be back here at 3 o'clock.

936
00:52:50,152 --> 00:52:51,152
One more question.

937
00:52:51,152 --> 00:52:55,152
I think there's just lunch going to be outside here in a minute.

938
00:52:55,152 --> 00:52:58,152
Yeah, so we have like one more question.

939
00:52:58,152 --> 00:53:01,152
Wait, Mike, you had your hand up. Have you had your question yet?

940
00:53:01,152 --> 00:53:03,152
Okay, great. Mike, what's your question?

941
00:53:03,152 --> 00:53:07,152
Well, I've had like 10 questions, but I'll go with my very first question I had,

942
00:53:07,152 --> 00:53:10,152
which was SuperTestNet said something interesting,

943
00:53:10,152 --> 00:53:15,152
which was like he doesn't consider space chains or Drivechains Layer 2,

944
00:53:15,152 --> 00:53:16,152
and I was just kind of curious.

945
00:53:16,152 --> 00:53:18,152
It seems a little novel or nuanced.

946
00:53:18,152 --> 00:53:22,152
I just was curious, like, what's your take on that?

947
00:53:22,152 --> 00:53:27,152
Yeah, because I consider them custodial, at least of any Drivechains are,

948
00:53:27,152 --> 00:53:32,152
because the phrase miners can steal means miners have custody.

949
00:53:32,152 --> 00:53:36,152
Yeah, but see, the miners can also steal from the Lightning Network

950
00:53:36,152 --> 00:53:38,152
by censoring the justice transactions.

951
00:53:38,152 --> 00:53:40,152
I agree. Do you just say that?

952
00:53:40,152 --> 00:53:41,152
I think Layer 1.

953
00:53:41,152 --> 00:53:43,152
Nobody in Layer 2?

954
00:53:43,152 --> 00:53:50,152
I feel like Layer 1 can already also reorg Layer 1 and hold transactions hostage,

955
00:53:50,152 --> 00:53:55,152
so they can also – so it's kind of like – the thing is if you use proof of work,

956
00:53:55,152 --> 00:53:59,152
you're kind of just like – you're really beholden to what the miners want,

957
00:53:59,152 --> 00:54:01,152
like in every single case.

958
00:54:01,152 --> 00:54:03,152
It's very difficult if they're absolutely against something.

959
00:54:03,152 --> 00:54:06,152
A lot of things is like they still want to update their software.

960
00:54:06,152 --> 00:54:08,152
What do miners want?

961
00:54:08,152 --> 00:54:12,152
Miners want to just run their machine into the ground, right?

962
00:54:12,152 --> 00:54:15,152
It seems like a rom-com about that, like what the miners want.

963
00:54:15,152 --> 00:54:16,152
Does that answer your question?

964
00:54:16,152 --> 00:54:18,152
What do you consider a Layer 2?

965
00:54:18,152 --> 00:54:26,152
Well, I would consider something a Layer 2 if there was no one who had custody of
your coins

966
00:54:26,152 --> 00:54:28,152
and you could get them back in Layer 1.

967
00:54:28,152 --> 00:54:31,152
Are there no current examples of Layer 2?

968
00:54:31,152 --> 00:54:36,152
My definition of a Layer 2 is that it is a separate accounting system

969
00:54:36,152 --> 00:54:41,152
where the control of updating who owns that asset on a separate accounting system

970
00:54:41,152 --> 00:54:42,152
has to be held with the asset.

971
00:54:42,152 --> 00:54:44,152
So this would – we'll have coinbase.

972
00:54:44,152 --> 00:54:49,152
This would, I think, open dimes kind of work because the control would be

973
00:54:49,152 --> 00:54:51,152
to physically hand the object over.

974
00:54:51,152 --> 00:54:54,152
So it kind of makes it such that like lightning is definitely a Layer 2

975
00:54:54,152 --> 00:54:58,152
because in order for funds to move in a channel, you need a signature from both
parties.

976
00:54:58,152 --> 00:55:02,152
Roll-ups, I'm assuming, are Layer 2s because you would need –

977
00:55:02,152 --> 00:55:05,152
you need signatures from the people who say they own that asset.

978
00:55:05,152 --> 00:55:10,152
E-cashments, you have to get a signature from the person with the token or remove
it, right?

979
00:55:10,152 --> 00:55:14,152
So like anything where you need the permission that you're just holding that thing.

980
00:55:14,152 --> 00:55:17,152
But this question was for SuperTestMan.

981
00:55:17,152 --> 00:55:22,152
Like you said the least or besides John.

982
00:55:22,152 --> 00:55:24,152
It's like I was trying to think.

983
00:55:24,152 --> 00:55:26,152
I don't have the same definition as –

984
00:55:26,152 --> 00:55:27,152
Right. I was just curious.

985
00:55:27,152 --> 00:55:30,152
Like it's very like nuanced or there might be some nuance here.

986
00:55:30,152 --> 00:55:31,152
It's very novel.

987
00:55:31,152 --> 00:55:32,152
I was just curious.

988
00:55:32,152 --> 00:55:34,152
Maybe you can just elaborate a little bit.

989
00:55:35,152 --> 00:55:40,152
It is true that there are situations where miners can steal from the Lightning
Network

990
00:55:40,152 --> 00:55:44,152
and in order to do that, they have to coordinate with one another.

991
00:55:44,152 --> 00:55:48,152
It's very difficult right now it seems to me to coordinate with one another.

992
00:55:48,152 --> 00:55:52,152
I'm not aware of anyone who has written any software to help them do that

993
00:55:52,152 --> 00:55:55,152
and I don't see any evidence of them running such software.

994
00:55:55,152 --> 00:55:58,152
So if I write the software, then Lightning will switch from being a Layer 2?

995
00:55:58,152 --> 00:56:01,152
Yes. Well, I'm not sure it currently is a Layer 2, but if it is,

996
00:56:01,152 --> 00:56:04,152
then the only thing that we would do would take to make it not be one anymore

997
00:56:04,152 --> 00:56:06,152
would be for miners to easily be able to steal from it.

998
00:56:06,152 --> 00:56:09,152
Layer 2s have never really been tried.

999
00:56:09,152 --> 00:56:12,152
Nothing exists.

1000
00:56:12,152 --> 00:56:14,152
Nothing has been tried.

1001
00:56:14,152 --> 00:56:19,152
Also, the custodial or not custodial distinction is very helpful

1002
00:56:19,152 --> 00:56:22,152
and I think you can continue to apply it for Layer 1 and Layer 2.

1003
00:56:22,152 --> 00:56:24,152
Coinbase is a Layer 2 or whatever.

1004
00:56:24,152 --> 00:56:26,152
Custodial Layer 2s are real.

1005
00:56:26,152 --> 00:56:27,152
My couch is open now.

1006
00:56:27,152 --> 00:56:29,152
I've got some open dimes in there.

1007
00:56:29,152 --> 00:56:31,152
Yeah, what happened to that guy?

1008
00:56:31,152 --> 00:56:33,152
What happened to that Latin American guy?

1009
00:56:33,152 --> 00:56:36,152
Stalky and my sofa is a sidechain.

1010
00:56:36,152 --> 00:56:38,152
One of the seminal quirks.

1011
00:56:38,152 --> 00:56:41,152
He's still, he's still, he's still a seminal quirk.

1012
00:56:41,152 --> 00:56:43,152
Great.

1013
00:56:43,152 --> 00:56:45,152
Cool, so can we do some...

1014
00:56:45,152 --> 00:56:46,152
We've got to look him up.

1015
00:56:46,152 --> 00:56:48,152
Could you ever buy me Bitcoin and be like a multi-millionaire?

1016
00:56:48,152 --> 00:56:49,152
Should we do some math?

1017
00:56:49,152 --> 00:56:50,152
Let's wrap up.

1018
00:56:50,152 --> 00:56:54,152
Alright guys, so I think we've had a pretty good discussion of what Layer 2s are.

1019
00:56:54,152 --> 00:56:56,152
Thank you so much for joining us.

1020
00:56:56,152 --> 00:56:59,152
If you can find me, you can find out more about your projects and what you're
working on.

1021
00:56:59,152 --> 00:57:05,152
My website is liteco.in, L-I-T-E-H-T-E-C-O.in

1022
00:57:05,152 --> 00:57:08,152
and you can follow me on Twitter and go into that kind of thing,

1023
00:57:08,152 --> 00:57:12,152
at litecoin, L-I-T-E-H-T-E-C-O-I-N.

1024
00:57:12,152 --> 00:57:14,152
I'm out there at drivechain.info.

1025
00:57:14,152 --> 00:57:16,152
That's a good site.

1026
00:57:16,152 --> 00:57:17,152
And Truthcoin.

1027
00:57:17,152 --> 00:57:18,152
Yeah, Truthcoin on Twitter.

1028
00:57:18,152 --> 00:57:20,152
So you're litecoin, you're Truthcoin.

1029
00:57:20,152 --> 00:57:22,152
It is awesome.

1030
00:57:23,152 --> 00:57:26,152
Long before they were all coins.

1031
00:57:26,152 --> 00:57:28,152
You can follow me on Nostr.

1032
00:57:28,152 --> 00:57:33,152
If you want my pubkey, try and guess it.

1033
00:57:33,152 --> 00:57:35,152
That's it.

1034
00:57:35,152 --> 00:57:36,152
Cool.

1035
00:57:36,152 --> 00:57:38,152
And I'm nifty, I'm nifty9 on Twitter.

1036
00:57:38,152 --> 00:57:40,152
Yeah, I have 5 months on Twitter.

1037
00:57:40,152 --> 00:57:41,152
Cool.

1038
00:57:41,152 --> 00:57:42,152
Alright.

1039
00:57:42,152 --> 00:57:43,152
Thanks guys.

1040
00:57:43,152 --> 00:57:44,152
We're going to have a hackathon.

1041
00:57:44,152 --> 00:57:46,152
Keep working on stuff.

1042
00:57:46,152 --> 00:57:48,152
Lunch is going to be now-ish.

1043
00:57:48,152 --> 00:57:50,152
I think we had about 30 things sandwiched.

1044
00:57:50,152 --> 00:57:52,152
We're going to run lunch until 1.30, I think.

1045
00:57:52,152 --> 00:57:56,152
So get out there, get a sandwich, come back, hack on stuff.

1046
00:57:56,152 --> 00:57:58,152
We're going to be here at 3.

1047
00:57:58,152 --> 00:58:01,152
The first thing is going to kick off at 3.20 for the hackathon.

1048
00:58:01,152 --> 00:58:04,152
Cool.

1049
00:58:04,152 --> 00:58:05,152
I guess that's everything.

1050
00:58:05,152 --> 00:58:06,152
Thanks guys.

1051
00:58:06,152 --> 00:58:06,960
Cool.