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Hello.

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How are you doing?

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I'm doing great.

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This show we've threatened to make for a while.

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Oh, yeah.

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I know.

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It's like a Cold War.

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It's coming to an end.

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A little bit of pressure, a little bit of conversation online, and then finally we
did

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it.

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So we're going to do this.

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We're going to cover this, the controversial Paul, and Paul's controversial ideas.

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Well, you know, I tried not to say anything controversial, but I think I said it
wrong.

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I don't think there's anything controversial.

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You know, I think I said it.

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I think there is.

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You know, I didn't say anything controversial.

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I don't think there's anything controversial.

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I think that's just the way I am.

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not to say — anyone can just repeat the ideas that are out there, you know what I

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mean?

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If I'm going to write a blog post or something, I want it to be something new.

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I usually — I try to write about something where I disagree with everyone else, so
that's

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inevitable.

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And then of course, people never read the post.

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They just see like a tweet with the title, and they just say that's wrong because of

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such and such.

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But if they would read the article, they would see I already replied to such and
such.

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I say a lot of people think such and such, but that's not right.

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So Paul, why are you so controversial?

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I don't know.

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I mean, I think I just said that, like I try to only say things when I think that
are useful.

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And I think a useful thing is if you notice something false that everyone believes
is

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true or vice versa, you would want to say that.

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You wouldn't just want to repeat what other people would say.

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That's not always necessarily true in Bitcoin, though.

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Sometimes it's quite difficult to step out from what a lot of people say.

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Well, it's very difficult for sure, but I think there's a difference between — I

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mean, the right thing to do is usually — it's not always the easy thing to do.

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If it's easy to do and right to do, then there's no problem, right?

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All right, Paul.

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Well, listen, I know who you are, but there's going to be some people listening who
don't

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know who you are.

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Do you want to give a bit of a background?

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Well, I mean, I hate introductions.

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I think it's like I'll just say my thing, and then at the end of the interview,
people

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can decide if they want to — you can go, you can find me on Twitter at Truthcoin.

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You're so controversial.

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Truthcoin.info is my blog, and you can find all kinds of — I have a project,
BitcoinHiveMind.com.

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I have all these projects that I'll link to each other.

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So if everyone does an intro, you're not doing an intro.

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I just think intros are really boring, you know?

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It's like I always think like I already decided to click play, right?

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So I always skip like way into any YouTube video or any podcast.

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I skip way into it because I'm like, I don't want to hear the intro.

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I just want to hear what I'm here to hear for.

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But now I'm doing the worst thing, which is just wasting everyone's time not even
giving

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them an intro.

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Well, now I'm going to put intros in the middle just to fuck with you.

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Okay, great.

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Yeah, you can edit it and rearrange.

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Everyone at home, Peter McCormack can just edit and rearrange the interview.

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I have no idea what order it's going to be in or anything.

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Well, we're here to entertain as well as educate.

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All right, Paul.

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Tell me about Drivechains.

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I know I can't remember if you or someone else tried to explain them to me before,
but

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we know I'm not the most technically competent.

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Yes, I've heard that.

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I've heard you say that before.

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You explain it like I'm too.

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Often.

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Well, yeah, people say that and I say, where are your parents or something?

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I mean, Drivechain is this idea for an SPV proof that I came up with in November
2015.

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SPV proof.

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SPV proof is something that proves the work, the proof of work, but not the validity
of blocks.

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See, I have no idea what you're talking about already.

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SPV proof is the foundation of the sidechain idea.

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So the sidechain is we aren't going to look at the validity.

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So we have like a Zcash sidechain or whatever.

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We have like a bit Zcash.

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So we're going to copy all the technology from Zcash.

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But Bitcoin is not going to go through the effort of doing whatever wacky technology
they're doing over there.

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We're just going to say, we're only going to look at, did you mine a bunch of blocks
in the Zcash sidechain, so to speak.

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So we're going to have to go step by step on this.

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My limited understanding of sidechains is with what I know about liquid.

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Yeah, right.

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This is unfortunate because they have decided to take this word in a different
direction.

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So to me, a sidechain, we have the Bitcoin blockchain and then we have this other
blockchain.

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And I can peg my Bitcoin in and I'm given liquid Bitcoin and I can peg out.

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And then in this separate sidechain, I can do a bunch of other shit.

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And the way I understand it, it's almost like another little block I can go and play
in and do stuff.

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It's almost like I've got two rooms. One room is Bitcoin and one room is liquid.

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And I've decided to pay some Bitcoin to go in the liquid room.

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I play with liquid and I can get my Bitcoin back and come out.

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So the trick is how does the coins come out?

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So you see it's easy to go in.

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Here in New York City, they have the subway, the one-way spinning thing.

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I don't know if you've been on the subway.

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We have the Circle Line in London.

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And so it's easy to get.

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It's kind of like layer one Bitcoin is you're trapped in the subway forever.

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And it's easy to get out to go in to layer two.

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You go up to the street layer.

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We walk out the little turnstile thing.

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But you can't easily get back in.

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You have to pay and use the little kiosk.

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Right. You've got to give me some real example.

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What does that mean when liquid is hard to get out?

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I can't just peg out?

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Well, in liquid, when you peg out, there's a multisig output and a bunch of people
sign.

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Those people sign.

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So on layer one, the only thing that the Bitcoin network sees is a multisig output.

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So you could make your own competitor to liquid ten minutes from now by just making
15 keys

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and creating a multisig address and then telling everyone that this is whatever.

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Yeah, but I'm not going to do that.

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And that doesn't make any sense to me.

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What I'm saying is I know liquid exists.

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I know I can peg into it.

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I know I can get liquid Bitcoin.

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I'm going to move that around with a little more privacy, a little bit faster.

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I know how that works.

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And I know I can peg out.

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I'm still not understanding what your criticism is.

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Well, when you peg in and peg out, it's what you're sending it to.

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On layer one, that's what's actually happening.

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So with liquid, this is just like a multisig wallet.

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I guess I'm not really sure that you actually do know what liquid is and what's
happening

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when you peg in and peg out.

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I won't know technically, but I'm a standard user of what most of my listeners will
be.

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Most people listen to this.

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They don't know how multisig really works.

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They don't understand the engine behind Bitcoin.

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Most of them buy Bitcoin and they send it to an address and they keep it there.

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And then sometimes they send it to another address.

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And some of them maybe go and create a Lightning wallet.

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And they send some Bitcoin to have some stats.

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And some of them may even create a multisig wallet with something like Casa.

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And some of them really advanced will run a node.

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But most people don't understand what's going on.

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They're just sending stuff to addresses.

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So why does this matter to them?

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Well, one reason is if the 15 keys are compromised, 11 of them in this case,

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that person will just take all the money out.

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So it'll be like a Celsius-style catastrophe.

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So your criticism is really the risk around the Federation?

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Well, this is the main difference between what I did, which is now BIP300.

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And the Federation is a group of people who are the custodians of the money.

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And you hope that they choose to give you your money back.

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And maybe you have really good reasons to believe that they will give you your money
back.

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But in BIP300, there's just a transparent process that only involves the miners.

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Anyone can become a miner or leave the group of miners at any time.

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As you know, there's no fixed list of miners.

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If all of today's miners were killed by an asteroid or something,

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then there would be new miners without anyone having to update anything.

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But that's not true.

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If the Liquid functionaries all die or they all get whatever, something happens to
them,

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then it won't be possible to get the money back.

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Although in Liquid's case, there is a secondary multisig failsafe.

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That's a whole other story because at one point they realized that they had done it
wrong

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and there were four Blockstream keys that could be used.

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Not in an emergency, so this is like a complicated other detail.

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Okay.

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With Liquid that people probably won't be interested in.

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In terms of my experience of moving, say, into your Drivechain, does it have a name
like Liquid?

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No.

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Well, this is a process for creating.

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BIP300 means there could be 256 slots.

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And each could be its own sidechain.

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And then you could do it again and get 256 more.

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You could have sidechains of sidechains.

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So this is a process for adding and removing decentralized sidechains

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that have no fixed list of owners.

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Okay, I get it.

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So this is, okay, you're proposing a way for sidechains to be created,

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not the creation of the sidechain itself.

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Yeah, when you create Liquid, you need to pick the 15 people or the 15 keys.

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But with this, you would not.

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But with this, if you created a sidechain using BIP300,

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does somebody still peg in and have a different asset and still peg out?

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Yeah, the user sends the coins in to a little box, basically.

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And the sidechain software recognizes that as a deposit.

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Okay.

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Over there, the sidechain software is like an altcoin, except without the coin.

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You can do whatever you want over there.

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So you could do Zcash, Ethereum, whatever.

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We'll come back to that.

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So when I go in, am I given something that is identical in replication?

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Like a Liquid Bitcoin is basically a Bitcoin?

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Yes, that's the idea.

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I mean, of course, with this, you have the freedom to do any idea you like,

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good or bad.

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So someone could have a sidechain that was a terrible design

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and where it ate the coins and refused to tell you where they were

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or give them back.

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Okay.

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So of course, no one would do that in practice, except there's a mistake.

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So whereas with Bitcoin and Liquid, we have these two rooms I can go between.

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You're just creating a process.

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Anyone can come and build a room that attaches to it.

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It's like an elevator.

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I can conjure a new floor or something.

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And one could be a very nice safe room and one could murder you.

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Yeah.

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You open the door and you just fall out of the building.

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Okay.

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Fine.

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I'm going to come back to that.

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Your sidechain doesn't have a 15-person multisig.

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Correct.

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So what does it have instead?

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You've got to imagine I am the dumbest fucker you will meet.

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So just take me slowly, step by step.

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Well, okay.

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The metaphor is that you put the coins into a little box.

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Yeah.

217
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So there are 256 slots, so it should be its own box.

218
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But we're just talking one sidechain at a time.

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Why 256?

220
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Well, because a byte can count up to that.

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You need some way of referring to each sidechain so it would be more overhead.

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In practice, there's no limit because you could have sidechains of sidechains,

223
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or you could do the thing again.

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I just don't think that they'll be anywhere near.

225
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I could be totally wrong about this, but I just don't see.

226
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How many viable blockchain designs do you see?

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You've got Bitcoin, Monero, and you've got 10 other things.

228
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But if BIP300 was merged into Bitcoin, what stops one person quickly going to take
all 256 slots?

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Well, the process of claiming the slot takes a little bit of time.

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So there's like a BIP-9 style two-week activation thing to take the slot.

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And you can also very slowly overwrite the slot.

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So BIP300 has all these rules to manage that kind of thing.

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But say I go and claim all 256 slots straight away and wait my two weeks.

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Do I suddenly have all the slots and there's none left for anyone else?

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Well, the miners have to – like I said, there's like a miner act thing, like
acknowledgement things.

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You need like 90% miners to thumbs up your thing.

237
00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:31,160
So the process involves more – is more miner involved.

238
00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:32,160
Okay, okay.

239
00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:38,160
Each block I get to like do – affect the outcome in a very small way.

240
00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:39,160
That's basically the design.

241
00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,160
So are you essentially pitching your sidechain to the miners?

242
00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,160
You're saying this is my sidechain?

243
00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:45,160
Yes.

244
00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:50,160
And is it a bit like when a soft fork happens and you get miner signaling?

245
00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:55,160
Because this idea is from long ago in 2015, before any of this was even
controversial.

246
00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,160
This used to just be the way everything was done.

247
00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,160
That's obviously speaking a little too broadly.

248
00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:05,160
But this never used to be like a big who controls Bitcoin controversy.

249
00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:10,160
That's all just fallout from the block size war, SegWit2x.

250
00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:14,160
So this used to be a very uncontroversial and kind of normal thing.

251
00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:15,160
Well, we'll come back to that.

252
00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:16,160
Yeah.

253
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:17,160
But I'm interested in this.

254
00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,160
So you release – the code is released.

255
00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,160
BIP300 is activated.

256
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:33,160
The pitch to the miners, to be clear, is like this will either improve the price of
Bitcoin and or improve the total transaction fees collected.

257
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:43,160
So there's a rational reason to expect that miners would be – they would at least
have some interest in making sure that they give the right decision.

258
00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:44,160
How does it get pitched to them though?

259
00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,160
Is it like a BIP?

260
00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:50,160
I think there's no – well, these are like – these details are –

261
00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,160
I have plans for this.

262
00:13:52,160 --> 00:14:01,160
I actually invented something else called CoinNews, which is a completely different
cosmetic thing for displaying op return data in Bitcoin, which is – it's a very
interesting idea.

263
00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:08,160
And it doesn't involve any hard or soft fork or any kind of code changes to the
consensus of Bitcoin at all.

264
00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:14,160
And it's just a cosmetic thing where when you open the full node, it shows you like
who paid the op returns.

265
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:22,160
It sorts them by like fee rate, and you can also have them like sorted by other kind
of tags and stuff that you can put in.

266
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:28,160
So you can have like all the English language ones in one column and all the
Japanese ones in like a different column or something.

267
00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:35,160
So I had this other thing that I just did for fun and it's a software that I run,
and I would think they could do that.

268
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:50,160
But even if you didn't have something like that in the software, someone could just
make a very conspicuous transaction that stands out by paying a larger fee and
basically do that kind of idea with duct tape.

269
00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:56,160
Yeah, but like when a BIP is activated, when a soft fork is activated, it's a whole
thing.

270
00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,160
Like everybody knows what it's about.

271
00:14:58,160 --> 00:14:59,160
Yes.

272
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:00,160
You get to read the documentation.

273
00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:01,160
But don't you think this is part of the problem though?

274
00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,160
Well, I'll come back to that because the thing you just –

275
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:05,160
We're coming back to a lot of things.

276
00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:06,160
Well –

277
00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:07,160
Luckily you've got a pen there.

278
00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:08,160
Yeah.

279
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:13,160
So the last thing you explained, I think you explained that you think I have any
idea what you're talking about, and I don't.

280
00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:14,160
This coin news thing?

281
00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:15,160
No, no.

282
00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:16,160
You know what op return is though.

283
00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:17,160
I have no idea what op return is.

284
00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:18,160
Well, people put messages.

285
00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,160
It's the messages the miners put in the block when they –

286
00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:22,160
No, that's a Coinbase.

287
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,160
But op return, anyone can make a transaction.

288
00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:35,160
This is used by lots of different people, and you can put – what it is is it's a
part of the transaction that you can just prune out.

289
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:36,160
You can just cut.

290
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:40,160
So it's something that will never be spent, so they put what's called a zero value
output.

291
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:41,160
Okay.

292
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,160
So basically what it is is like a memo field and a check or something.

293
00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,160
But what I'm trying to get to is –

294
00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:53,160
People write stuff like Bible verses and wedding vows, and people put like funny
little things.

295
00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,160
I've seen things like when certain blocks are mined, they put messages in.

296
00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:57,160
Yes.

297
00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:58,160
That's what I mean.

298
00:15:58,160 --> 00:15:59,160
Okay.

299
00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,160
But what I'm saying is I just want to go back.

300
00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:10,160
If a soft fork is activated, prior to that, the miners know full well what is
contained within the software, what it brings to Bitcoin, right?

301
00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,160
Well, that's the idea.

302
00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,160
Do you think that's really true though?

303
00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:18,160
Because you just told me, like, I don't know anything about op return, blah, blah,
blah, and a big Bitcoin podcast.

304
00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:22,160
Well, yeah, but I'm not a technical Bitcoin podcast.

305
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:23,160
We have Stefan Levera for that.

306
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:28,160
My show is to help people like me, like morons who don't know shit about this
technical stuff.

307
00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,160
Well, I mean, one thing I would recommend people do – I think this is fascinating.

308
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,160
You go to Scaling Bitcoin 2 Hong Kong.

309
00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:36,160
It's 2015.

310
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:41,160
They had this miner panel, and they had something like – someone even said out loud,
like,

311
00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:48,160
we have 92% of the hash rate represented on stage or something, which is kind of
like itself, like kind of a weird thing to say.

312
00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:55,160
But it goes through, and it's clear that those people have no real idea what the
block size debate is actually about.

313
00:16:55,160 --> 00:17:02,160
And in fact, most of them said something like – at one point, someone on the panel
said something like, could someone please just tell us what to do or something?

314
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:08,160
Because they were much more like you, I think, where they're just trying to find
cheap power, and they don't know.

315
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,160
But they still have to make a decision.

316
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:18,160
Of course. The more important thing is that they have accountability in the
increased Bitcoin price and the greater transaction fees.

317
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,160
They have the skin in the game to know.

318
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:27,160
So they have some basis for making – having an incentive to make the right decision.

319
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:31,160
But I'm sure they talk to people, and people will help them understand, yeah, this
is a good thing.

320
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:41,160
But when we get to a – what you're talking about, again, what are they activating,
and do they even know what they're activating?

321
00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:49,160
Well, I think, again, this is like the paradigm shift, which is that people feel
very responsible for all the Bitcoin code.

322
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:55,160
This is why the sidechain idea is like a complete night and day change from this way
of thinking.

323
00:17:55,160 --> 00:18:00,160
But right now, as you know, everyone worries about every single line of code, every
single change.

324
00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,160
But with this, these are all optional zones.

325
00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:07,160
The sidechains are all optional zones that your full node is going to ignore.

326
00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:11,160
It will only check the – so let me finish my box thing.

327
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:15,160
The box has kind of like a Post-it note on it that has the number zero.

328
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:23,160
And you can only take money out of the box if someone has a Post-it note that has
13,150 on it.

329
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:28,160
And you can only – every day, there's little rules about this Post-it note moving up
and down.

330
00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,160
But basically, that's the whole idea in a little nutshell.

331
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:38,160
But even though that's the proving the work, the SPV proof, but it's not going to
know anything about what the sidechain is doing.

332
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:44,160
So that is intentional because you don't – that's what makes you able to ignore the
sidechain.

333
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:49,160
So that's the whole point is that you wouldn't need to worry about what it is.

334
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,160
Okay. Where does the sidechain exist?

335
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,160
In some ways, it's easy to think about a sidechain as an altcoin.

336
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,160
So it's like where does Ethereum exist or something.

337
00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,160
You run a different piece of software. It has its own blocks.

338
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,160
It has its own blockchain. It has its own folder on your computer.

339
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:08,160
Okay.

340
00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:09,160
Right?

341
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:10,160
Yeah.

342
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,160
This is the same thing basically except that – a couple of differences.

343
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:18,160
But one is that the way this is designed, this is a fully asymmetric sidechain.

344
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:19,160
There used to be a distinction.

345
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:20,160
Now there is not.

346
00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:24,160
All these sidechain words have become unhelpful unfortunately.

347
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:29,160
But in this particular case, that – like we have test software.

348
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,160
So we have test sidechains.

349
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:36,160
That software won't even run or do anything until it can connect to a layer one
Bitcoin node.

350
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,160
So it's a lot like a lightning node in that way.

351
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:39,160
It's like a full layer two.

352
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:43,160
So it's like a fully subordinate piece of software.

353
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,160
Okay. Let's say one of these sidechains is set up and created.

354
00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:47,160
Yes.

355
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,160
My node doesn't download any of the blocks.

356
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:54,160
Your Bitcoin layer one full node does not.

357
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:55,160
But –

358
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:56,160
Right.

359
00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,160
It will not see anything except the box and the posted node.

360
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,160
And these boxes are UTXOs. They already exist.

361
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:01,160
Okay.

362
00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:02,160
Already have box world.

363
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:06,160
But if I want to use that sidechain, how do I start using it?

364
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:11,160
Well, it's the same as – again, it's the same as like the case with an altcoin.

365
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:16,160
It's the easiest way for people to think about it if they don't know, if they're
very confused or something.

366
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:21,160
You could have a wallet and use it without a node or only with an SPV node.

367
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:27,160
Or if you wanted the full node, the sidechain full node, you would download that
software and you would just run it.

368
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:28,160
So it would have a separate node?

369
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:29,160
Yes.

370
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:33,160
Okay. So why is it a sidechain to Bitcoin?

371
00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,160
Is it so it gains the security of Bitcoin?

372
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:40,160
Well, of course, the goal of sidechains back in the day before –

373
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:45,160
this is unfortunate because my point of view is not really relatable to regular
people anymore

374
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:53,160
because most people only know – I was back in October 2014 when Bloxham originally
published this paper and debuted.

375
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:58,160
It was very clear to everyone that the sidechain idea was to simulate altcoins.

376
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,160
So it was to make them obsolete basically.

377
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,160
At the time, Ethereum was getting started.

378
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,160
There was other stuff, BitShares or whatever.

379
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:12,160
It was all terrible at the time, but people thought, what are we going to do?

380
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,160
Why should there be a basis for comparison at all?

381
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,160
Say with Bitcoin, you can do X.

382
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:27,160
But with – hey, people would say, with my wacky new project, you can do Y, this new
thing, or Z or whatever you want to call it.

383
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,160
You don't have to wait for Bitcoin to –

384
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:30,160
To merge the thing in.

385
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:31,160
Yeah.

386
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:39,160
Of course, then with the block size debate, it became apparent that it may be an
even deeper problem than that

387
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,160
because you may have irreconcilable differences between people.

388
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,160
You cannot have the blocks be both small and large at the same time.

389
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,160
So someone has to leave empty-handed.

390
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:55,160
And so then that was like really spurring it on at first, and then Bloxham went in
the liquid direction,

391
00:21:55,160 --> 00:22:00,160
and they kind of torched I think the whole concept, which I think is a big, huge
setback for Bitcoin.

392
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:11,160
They wrote a paper in October 2014 called Sidechains colon something, and anyone can
look it up.

393
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:16,160
And it was written by people who not – Blockstream Plus basically.

394
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,160
Some other people were on the list.

395
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:23,160
And then November 2015, I had my SPV proof, which was different than theirs.

396
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,160
They have this Appendix B skip list thing that they never actually did.

397
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:35,160
They only stuck with the multisig, which they insisted – For years, they insisted
was only like a temporary band-aid,

398
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,160
and they would switch to their thing.

399
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,160
They abandoned their Appendix B thing.

400
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:45,160
My version is supposed to literally be like minimalist, and I changed something
else.

401
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:54,160
I proved the work via the mainchain, not via the sidechain because I worked out that
it made really no difference.

402
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:59,160
And so as much as actually there's no cost and enormous benefits to doing it that
way.

403
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,160
But they had coined the word.

404
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:07,160
It's kind of unfortunate that they did because they coined the sidechain word, and
then they ran away with the definition.

405
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:13,160
And so if I could do it over, one of the things I would do is I probably just –

406
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:18,160
I would never have used the word sidechain to describe what I was doing at all.

407
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,160
And maybe I should still stop doing it, and I should just use the Drivechain word.

408
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,160
And I should say this is a totally different thing.

409
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:31,160
But sidechain – you can kind of understand what it is from the nature of the word.

410
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:36,160
Well, I would hope, but a lot of people think that – well, yeah, I don't know.

411
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:37,160
A lot of people don't know.

412
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:43,160
What I was thinking of – I had an image in the November 2015 post at the beginning
with Bitcoin as like an engine,

413
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:50,160
and then like a big chain going around in all these other gears, like a Leonardo da
Vinci kind of thing.

414
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,160
The gears would be like Litecoin, would be like Ethereum.

415
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,160
So give me an example of a sidechain that someone would build.

416
00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,160
That might be more helpful to understand.

417
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,160
Yeah, the Zcash sidechain that we already have is a very good example.

418
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,160
We copied – they did all this work to get the Zcash 5.0.

419
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,160
The privacy benefits are very clear.

420
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:14,160
It's this unbreakable, confusing Z address thing.

421
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,160
And so now we have a version of that that we copied.

422
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,160
We just copied their version 5.0 into our template.

423
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:22,160
Okay.

424
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:29,160
So then you send – if you download our test software, you can mine fake coins
because it's a test and it's not real.

425
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:34,160
You can mine fake coins on what would be regular Bitcoin.

426
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,160
You send them over to the Zcash sidechain.

427
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,160
They show up over there, and then over there you can use them with the Z addresses.

428
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:40,160
Right.

429
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,160
And that's the benefit, and then you can take them back.

430
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,160
Let's go one step at a time.

431
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,680
You guys have created this, but it's not currently.

432
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:52,680
It's not live with Bitcoin like BTC. We have a fake – we have software for testing
that anyone can use that just generate coins.

433
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:59,680
It's funny. There's nothing in principle different between what we did and what some
altcoin that could exist or something, but it's for testing purposes only.

434
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:05,680
Some of this stuff's hard for people to follow, so we have to go through slowly.

435
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:12,680
I know it might be difficult. It might be painful for you, but – so you've created a
– but if you created a fake coin,

436
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:19,680
but if you created that in a Bitcoin testnet as a sidechain to Bitcoin, an entire
testnet?

437
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:25,680
The whole thing we did is our own test playground, so we can just reset it whenever
we want.

438
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:30,680
But that doesn't answer my question. My question is BIP300 doesn't exist within
Bitcoin.

439
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:31,680
Right.

440
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,680
Okay? You want it to exist.

441
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:39,680
Well, I don't understand at all why people aren't foaming or chomping at the bit or
whatever.

442
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,680
I know, but that's, again, another separate question.

443
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:42,680
Sure.

444
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:47,680
My question to you is – and I'm going slowly. I'm going to be specific about this
just so people understand.

445
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,680
If we jump around, no one will get it.

446
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:56,680
So how you understand Bitcoin, I understand how to structure questions in a way so
people understand it.

447
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:57,680
Okay.

448
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,680
So currently BIP300 doesn't exist within Bitcoin. You wish it did.

449
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:01,680
Yes.

450
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:02,680
Yes.

451
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:10,680
You've created a testnet environment where you have activated BIP300 in a testnet,
and so you've created that Zcash sidechain.

452
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,680
Yes. Those are separate things, though.

453
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:13,680
Okay.

454
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:21,680
BIP300 activates on the mainnet on what would be Bitcoin Core if it were on real
Bitcoin.

455
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,680
But you've activated the code in a testnet environment to see it works.

456
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:25,680
Right. That's BIP300.

457
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:26,680
Yeah.

458
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,680
The sidechain is a completely separate piece of software, like a lightning node.

459
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:35,680
But the BIP300 in the testnet allows you to move between the two.

460
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:36,680
Yes.

461
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,680
Yeah. Okay, great. So I understand that.

462
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:43,680
And so have you done this almost to prove to people, look how cool this is. We've
now got Zcash on Bitcoin.

463
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:48,680
Well, I agree with you completely that the example is a much better way of
explaining it.

464
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:54,680
I think most people are not interested in even how it works.

465
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,680
They just want to know, what is this for?

466
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:58,680
It's like my friend used an analogy in Xbox.

467
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,680
You build the Xbox with no games.

468
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,680
And so that was like, you have to have a game.

469
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,680
So if I wanted to use this, I've got Bitcoin Core running.

470
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,680
Say I want to use this sidechain, what else do I have to download?

471
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,680
Well, yeah, we have a different – the Zcash software has its own node.

472
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,680
So I'll be running two nodes at that point.

473
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,680
Well, as you know, you don't necessarily need to run any.

474
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:27,680
Many people just use a wallet that may be an SPV node only.

475
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,680
Or some people just use Coinbase or something.

476
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,680
So it's debatable whether or not those people are real users.

477
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,680
Is that like too nuanced? You know what I mean?

478
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,680
Because you can use Bitcoin without running a full node.

479
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:40,680
Yeah, of course.

480
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,680
So that's what I'm saying is how you use it is kind of your business.

481
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:49,680
But this other node software must exist for the network to produce blocks.

482
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:50,680
There must be other people doing nodes.

483
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,680
Okay, yeah, like we have with Bitcoin.

484
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,680
Some people run nodes, some people don't.

485
00:27:54,680 --> 00:28:04,680
But say I wanted – Danny wanted some Zcash from me, from your sidechain.

486
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:05,680
Okay, one more other question.

487
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,680
Is this a separate Zcash from the other Zcash blockchain?

488
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,680
Yes, that's an important other thing too.

489
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:11,680
So it should probably be given a different name.

490
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,680
Yeah, I used to – we call it Zside as a joke.

491
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,680
Sometimes they have like funny names.

492
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:17,680
Z, Bitcoin, Bitcoin Z.

493
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:22,680
When I did the presentation at Bitcoin 2021, I did an example with –

494
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:27,680
I usually just put Bit in front of them because Gavin and Driessen did this a
million years ago.

495
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,680
And so I was like Bit Monero.

496
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:31,680
So you'd have like Bitcoin and then we'd have like Bit Monero.

497
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,680
It would be like the Monero sidechain.

498
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:35,680
Yeah, I agree.

499
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,680
I think the names are a big problem.

500
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,680
Someone needs to come through with my project and rename everything.

501
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:43,680
You're in my world now, branding and marketing.

502
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:44,680
I can help you with this bit.

503
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,680
I would have a completely separate name because otherwise I'll be like, am I Zcash
here?

504
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:49,680
The same my Zcash here?

505
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:50,680
Okay, they're not.

506
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:51,680
Yeah, so we call it Zside.

507
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:56,680
And in fact, we label the tickers different too to keep people from being confused.

508
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,680
So like Bitcoin does – Liquid does LBTC.

509
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:01,680
We just call them BTC on the mainnet.

510
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,680
And then we just call them like SC1, SC2, SC3.

511
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,680
So sidechain number three is SC3.

512
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,680
You need a brand and a marketing person.

513
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,680
I would have called it something completely different.

514
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:13,680
But anyway, okay.

515
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,680
So I can run the node, but I don't have to.

516
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,680
Right, but I mean, as you know – I don't know.

517
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,680
It depends on the direction you want to take this conversation, but yeah.

518
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:32,680
So if I'm running the node and I've got my Bitcoin node running, the BIP300 is how
they talk to each other?

519
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:33,680
Yes.

520
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:34,680
Okay.

521
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:39,680
So say I want some bit Zs, bit Zcash.

522
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:40,680
Sure.

523
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,680
How do I get those?

524
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:48,680
Well, are you getting them from someone else on the network or are you getting them
from layer one?

525
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,680
Are you pegging in with your Bitcoin to get?

526
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,680
Well, when it turns on for the first time, it starts with zero coins.

527
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:55,680
So there's no coins there.

528
00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:00,680
So someone has to send the coins, and we have a little GUI for that.

529
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,680
And so you have a rule, and your rule could be what, one to one?

530
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,680
I didn't even plan on doing it like this, but I actually have screenshots.

531
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,680
But your rule could be one to one or ten to one?

532
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:10,680
Well, it should be one to one.

533
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,680
It could be something else, but it would just be confusing, you know what I mean?

534
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:18,680
Because if it's ten to one going in, and then it would have to be one to ten coming
back.

535
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:20,680
And that would just be annoying for people, I would think.

536
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:21,680
The whole point is to make it easier.

537
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:29,680
The whole point of this over the altcoin is to remove the Forex risk, and also the
risk of the project just collapsing.

538
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,680
So there would be a maximum 21 million.

539
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,680
Yeah, there's 21 million shared by all the different pieces of software.

540
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:36,680
Okay, great.

541
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:37,680
So I get it.

542
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,680
So I can peg in, and I can get some of these bit Zs.

543
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:42,680
I'm going to call them bit Zs.

544
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:43,680
And then I can send that to Danny.

545
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:45,680
But if Danny already has some, he can send them to me.

546
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:46,680
Yeah, right.

547
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,680
Okay, and I need a wallet.

548
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,680
And in my wallet, I would have Bitcoin.

549
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,680
I could have Bitcoin and also have these bit Zs next to it, yeah?

550
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:54,680
Correct.

551
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:55,680
Okay, so that's kind of—

552
00:30:55,680 --> 00:31:00,680
So when you download the Zcash node software, obviously it comes with a wallet.

553
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:01,680
Yeah.

554
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,680
But you could also have something like, I don't know, whatever wallet you want to
name.

555
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:09,680
Most of the wallets these days are multi-cryptocurrency.

556
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,680
They have Bitcoin and alt, and they could just have this also.

557
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,680
But say I was using—I don't know, let's give an example of a wallet.

558
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:17,680
Say I was using Ledger.

559
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,680
Would Ledger have to write in support for this?

560
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,680
If they had—yeah.

561
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,680
To be a wallet for this, it would, yeah.

562
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,680
And does it have a different set of addresses?

563
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:36,680
Well, of course it does, because most notably the Zcash system has the Z address,
the private Z addresses.

564
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:43,680
So really what you've created, it sounds like to me, is a bridge between Bitcoin and
some other stuff.

565
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,680
And then this one, it's Zcash, but it could be memorable.

566
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:46,680
It's just a bridge?

567
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:47,680
Precisely.

568
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,680
And that bridge—so that bridge is a way of creating the new coins?

569
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,680
Yeah, you can take your coins and escape to a different piece of software.

570
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:56,680
Okay.

571
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,680
What does the Bitcoin blockchain know?

572
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:01,680
It just knows this transaction out?

573
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:06,680
Yeah, I have—in the talk I gave at TabConf, I do literally an exact slide of that,

574
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,680
and I say this is everything that's happening, and this is all that your full node
sees.

575
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,680
But your full node only sees the little post-it note on the box.

576
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:20,680
And there are rules with the post-it note, but you want to get that post-it note
from zero all the way up to that really high number, 13,000.

577
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,680
And that is the only thing the full node sees.

578
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,680
I don't understand about this getting this number up from zero.

579
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,680
Every block, the miners can move it up by one or down by one.

580
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:38,680
So they say, we want to eventually withdraw to this set, this transaction ID.

581
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,680
So you have a big list of people who want out.

582
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:42,680
Yeah.

583
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,680
Here's like 11,000 people who want out or whoever it is.

584
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:53,680
And they all want out, and they want to take their coins to different layer one
addresses because they want to go back from the sidechain to regular Bitcoin core.

585
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,680
So what are you saying? There's a maximum of 13,000 of these that can happen in one
go?

586
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,680
No, the 13,000 is the score, the threshold needed.

587
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:02,680
So maybe that was confusing.

588
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:04,680
Yeah, I'm totally confused by that. What's that for?

589
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:11,680
Let's just say there's eight people who want out in a given time period.

590
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:25,680
Someone wants seven coins to mainchain address number one, five coins to mainchain
address number two, half a coin to mainchain address number three, and 33,000 coins
to mainchain address number four.

591
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:31,680
So they select the sidechain output that has all the coins in the box basically.

592
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,680
And they say, we want out. We want to take coins out of the box.

593
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:41,680
So they say, this is what we want. It has a different little unique transaction ID,
like a little code, a little bit of hex.

594
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:46,680
And then they take the post-it note away, and they write that little thing, and then
they write the number one.

595
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:48,680
And they put that post-it note on the box.

596
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:54,680
And then when they find the next block, they take it away, and they write a two, and
then it goes to three.

597
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,680
And then maybe it goes back down to two, or maybe it stays at three.

598
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,680
There's rules for what this little post-it note can do.

599
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:11,680
But if it gets up to 13,150, which is three months of finding blocks, then you're
allowed to take the coins out.

600
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:19,680
And those are the BIP300 rules that are enforced by your mainchain node, not any of
the Zcash stuff.

601
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,680
I still don't get that. Sorry. I have no idea what that means.

602
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,680
If I want to take them out, why can't I just take them out?

603
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:35,680
It's kind of like if you're trying to get someone out of prison or something, and
they have interlocking gates, and they have buzzers and things.

604
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:40,680
Or they knock, like you see on a TV show or something, and the lawyer wants to
leave.

605
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,680
The thing buzzes, and the first door opens, and they go through. Then it closes.

606
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:51,680
No, I understand the analogy. But what I'm saying is, why am I waiting up to 13,000
blocks to get my coins out?

607
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:57,680
Because those coins can go to any destination, because you're not checking the
sidechain rules.

608
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:06,680
So you're ignoring the sidechain. So this is the whole miners can steal fake
controversy, because this is like, it would take them three months to steal.

609
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,680
But all the withdrawals take a long time for security reasons.

610
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,680
So how many blocks to 13,000?

611
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:14,680
It's three months.

612
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:16,680
So it takes three months to pick out.

613
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:22,680
Yeah, but this is another misunderstanding, which is that the regular users wouldn't
necessarily use this at all.

614
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:28,680
They can just go, they can swap either with like HTLCs, or they can just use an
exchange or something.

615
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:36,680
They can go on Coinbase and say, okay, I have 12 coins. I have 12 bit Zs.

616
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:42,680
And I don't want bit Zs anymore. I want regular BTC.

617
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:48,680
So they sell their 12 to Coinbase, and Coinbase gives them like 11.99 BTC.

618
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:54,680
And then only one person has to actually walk the coins through the process.

619
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:59,680
So it's not 13,000 to go in, right? Just to come out?

620
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:00,680
To go in, it's instant.

621
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,680
It's instant, but to come out, it's 13,000. Right. Okay.

622
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:03,680
Exactly.

623
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:05,680
And why three months? Why 13,000?

624
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,680
Well, it was originally two weeks, and then people complained about it.

625
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:16,680
And I kind of almost regret even changing it because over time, it's become clear
that people just complain about anything, even if they don't know anything about
whatever.

626
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,680
But like I said, there's no real downside to making it longer.

627
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,680
But there is if you want your coins.

628
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,680
But this is the thing is anyone can swap the coins with you.

629
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,680
Okay. Who's going to put them in and be happy to wait? Is it Coinbase, you think?

630
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,680
Well, it could be anyone. There's a whole distribution of people, right?

631
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,680
People are very different. People are heterogeneous.

632
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,680
So some people are like an investment banker type person.

633
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:42,680
They'll take the yield.

634
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:44,680
They'll just say, listen, I buy these coins.

635
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:49,680
I get 12 from the person, and I pay them 11.99.

636
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,680
And you do that a bunch of times, and then you wait, and now you're getting
basically an interest rate.

637
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,680
So we're talking about almost like money dealers here.

638
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:57,680
Yeah, it's like a money market.

639
00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:58,680
Money market.

640
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:01,680
But literally anyone can do it. You understand?

641
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:06,680
So that's why it's very unlikely to have a real opportunity for it to go too off the
rails.

642
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,680
But say I have 100 bitcoins sitting around, and I'm like, there's no use for this.

643
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,680
I'm going to get 100 of these Zcash coins, and I'm just going to sit around.

644
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,680
I'm not going to spend these for the next 10 years.

645
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:23,680
If someone wants to buy some Zcash off me, I'm going to charge a margin, and then
I'm making my premium there.

646
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:28,680
So you say you wanted to buy one Z off me, and I'm going to be like, yeah, that's
0.99 bitcoin.

647
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:29,680
I've made 0.1%.

648
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,680
And I can just keep doing that, and at some point I'll be like, you know, I'm going
to withdraw some out.

649
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,680
Yeah, that kind of makes sense.

650
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,680
Right, but what you're actually selling them is the 99.

651
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:41,680
You're giving them the 99 Z, yeah.

652
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:42,680
Okay, I understand.

653
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,680
You're collecting all the bit Zs, and then you're going to walk them back.

654
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:46,680
And then you get one for one.

655
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,680
And then you always know the peg holds.

656
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:51,680
It's always going to maintain the same value.

657
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:53,680
Yeah, that's the point is you want it to be very secure.

658
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,680
So that's why it's three months because the worst thing ever is if the peg doesn't
work.

659
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,680
And, in fact, there have been Ethereum kind of versions of this idea that made it
much shorter.

660
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:08,680
I think one was a wormhole or whatever where they made it like three hours, and it
didn't work because that's too short.

661
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,680
There's no real downside to making it long.

662
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:15,680
The longer it is, kind of like the better because they have to declare in advance
where they're taking the money.

663
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:16,680
Everyone can see it.

664
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:22,680
It's compressed down to this one little code thing that everyone can check against
the sidechain.

665
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:29,680
The sidechain is going to be screaming the true withdrawal code at the top of its
lungs in all directions.

666
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,680
We have it like in the GUI at the bottom in like a little ribbon.

667
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:34,680
So everyone is going to know what the real one is.

668
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:39,680
So if anyone tries a false one, people will know the same day.

669
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:46,680
And then they'll have to spend three months with the stigma of knowing that it's
wrong but doing it anyway.

670
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,680
And then it'll be three months later if they finally succeed.

671
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:57,680
And if no one does anything about it, then they will be able to take the coins and
send them to those withdrawal outputs.

672
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,680
And that is the whole miners can steal critique of this project.

673
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,680
But it's kind of a silly critique because they have to do this for three months.

674
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:12,680
Whereas if the miners were willing to do something like that, they could also empty
lightning channels by blocking the blah, blah, blah.

675
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:14,680
Okay. I'm starting to get it.

676
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,680
So there can only ever be 21 million.

677
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:18,680
There's zero now.

678
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:19,680
Yeah.

679
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:21,680
But whatever you peg in pegs out of Bitcoin.

680
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,680
So there's no inflation here of coins either, which is cool.

681
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:30,680
It just allows you to create – have additional technology that can do other things.

682
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:31,680
Yes.

683
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:32,680
This is quite a big difference.

684
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,680
I think the better way – it must be easier.

685
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:44,680
Maybe people can imagine a world where you have even – like today you would have
someone go on stage, someone like whatever, a safe dean or something.

686
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,680
They go on stage and they say Vitalik is the devil and we all hate Vitalik or
whatever.

687
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:56,680
But in a parallel world with sidechains, you would imagine that history would just
play out differently and the same person would go on stage.

688
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:01,680
For the same exact actual idea, they would say, oh, Bitcoin has all the best
technology.

689
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,680
We have this wonder kid, Vitalik.

690
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,680
He's doing – turning complete sidechain on Bitcoin or whatever.

691
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,680
The Jeremy Rubin thing would be completely different also.

692
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,680
There would be no controversy about that.

693
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,680
He would just go and they would say, we're not ready for this right now.

694
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,680
He would just do it on a different piece of software.

695
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:29,680
This problem wouldn't even exist, the problem of how to coordinate the soft or hard
forks or any kind of other activation.

696
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:35,680
Because really sometimes they're worried about inflation of total coins across all
protocols, right?

697
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:37,680
Like just keep us all in Bitcoin.

698
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:43,680
Well, I mean that's why I think it's a no-brainer to – that's why the sidechain idea
was so good I think.

699
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:44,680
I wouldn't say no-brainer.

700
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:46,680
There's another thing we'll come back to because we can talk about something.

701
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,680
There are obviously downsides.

702
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:49,680
We can talk through that.

703
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:51,680
Just help me understand.

704
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,680
How does this sidechain get its security?

705
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,680
Because the miners provide the security to Bitcoin.

706
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:03,680
How do they provide the security to the – does this sidechain just inherit the
security?

707
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,680
Well, this is the idea – yeah, it does.

708
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:13,680
But this is the idea of merged mining which I think is also understood by a very,
very, very small number of people.

709
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:15,680
Are you basically sharing the cryptographic proof?

710
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:17,680
Well, this is the thing.

711
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,680
The mining – like it's debatable if there is any cryptographic proof like in mining.

712
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:25,680
Like mining is – this is one of the things I remember Adam Back telling me.

713
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:31,680
Like when he first heard about Bitcoin, he was confused because – well, maybe this
is a minute detail.

714
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:38,680
But the hash rate security is the cost of like the 51% attack more or less.

715
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:46,680
And normally in cryptography, they're like these unbreakable black and white
situations where it's like it can never be broken by anyone.

716
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:57,680
If all the corporations and governments of the world combined, they would not be
able to crack the – decrypt the message or whatever.

717
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,680
Or it's like very easy to do.

718
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:01,680
So it's black and white.

719
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,680
But with mining, it's this spectrum.

720
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:09,680
When mining first started, there was only a few people.

721
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,680
So the hash rate security was pretty low and now it's more.

722
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:14,680
Maybe in the future it will be even more.

723
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:15,680
Maybe it will be something else.

724
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:26,680
But whatever the – the way merge mining is, you kind of fit the sidechain block into
a regular mainchain block and it kind of goes along for the ride.

725
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:28,680
Does that mean it uses up block space?

726
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:42,680
Well, it uses a tiny amount, but this is where the analogy breaks down completely
because the sidechain block is referenced in the mainchain in a little tiny spot.

727
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:44,680
But the actual block itself is somewhere else.

728
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:45,680
Right. Okay.

729
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:46,680
So it gets –

730
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:54,680
So it uses a tiny, tiny, tiny amount of space to say like sidechain number four,
like this hash of the block and like maybe a couple other things.

731
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,680
Yeah. So it does inherit the security then of the mainchain.

732
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:11,680
When the sidechain node is running, it knows – it must look – like I said before,
like if you run our software or the zside software, if it can't find layer one
Bitcoin node, it just won't do anything.

733
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:18,680
Because it's going to use that to figure out how many blocks there are, like what
time it is, stuff like that.

734
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:24,680
Like if it's Saturday at 11.30, it's going to get all that from mainchain Bitcoin.

735
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:25,680
So it's sort of riding along.

736
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:27,680
But this idea is very misunderstood.

737
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:37,680
One reason is that – one notable fact about it is that it merged mining, which
Satoshi invented merge mining in 2010 for Namecoin.

738
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,680
It's a very old idea and we've been doing it ever since.

739
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:48,680
It's another thing people don't realize that this is a very old idea that has been
in continuous use.

740
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:56,680
But an intriguing fact about it is you don't modify the mainchain to allow this.

741
00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:03,680
In fact, the mainchain cannot stop an unlimited number of chains from being merged
mined.

742
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,680
There's nothing Bitcoin can do to even stop this from happening.

743
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:16,680
And instead, you modify the chain that's riding along, the parasite chain or the
friend chain or whatever you want to call it.

744
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:23,680
If we ignore that everything but Bitcoin is a shitcoin argument for a moment and
just say, look, there's different scales of altcoin, right?

745
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,680
Which I would say are different levels of credibility.

746
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:29,680
Now, for some people, they're all shit, right?

747
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,680
There's other people that they're not.

748
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:39,680
And when you get the people who are not, they would say, well, Ethereum has clearly
proven its – forget all the issues with its scale.

749
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:44,680
Ethereum has kind of proved the case that there are things that people want to do on
Ethereum.

750
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:45,680
Whether you agree with it or not, it does.

751
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:47,680
Monero has proved the case.

752
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:53,680
Zcash hasn't really got much adoption, but it's a different technology that does
something different.

753
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:59,680
There's a handful there you could say that are doing something more interesting than
the other 20,000 bullshit ones.

754
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:07,680
It feels like these ones would be the kind of ones that would be elevated into this
and the bullshit 20,000 other ones just wouldn't even bother trying.

755
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:09,680
They would just – they wouldn't survive.

756
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:10,680
They would die.

757
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:11,680
And I think –

758
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:12,680
Yes, precisely.

759
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:24,680
I think one of the things, Danny, run through my logic here, that you can't – you
wouldn't be able to price speculate on these coins because their price matches
Bitcoin.

760
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:25,680
Yes, exactly.

761
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:29,680
It would be like putting $20 into an ATM and getting $20 in your checking account.

762
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:30,680
It would just be like the same thing.

763
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:37,680
So there's no incentive to put shit coins on here.

764
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,680
Yeah, it kind of would filter out all the shit basically.

765
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:41,680
Yeah.

766
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:43,680
I mean somewhat – that's what a lot of people think.

767
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,680
I mean I think that would be like 99% the case at least.

768
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,680
Yeah, well, it would because you're not – and it's not going to last if no one uses
it.

769
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:50,680
Exactly.

770
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:52,680
And you don't have any – you have to have a real appeal.

771
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:58,680
That's exactly right as well is that if no one uses it, there just won't be coins
over there, and then it will just die out.

772
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:05,680
But it would increase demand for the coins in the ecosystem, which itself would
drive up the price anyway.

773
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:06,680
That's my logic.

774
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:08,680
Yes, that sounds right to me.

775
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:16,680
The thing that I can't get my head around is if you were making a project and you
were a bit of a shit coiner, the incentive is to go and shit coin because you're
going to make way more money.

776
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:17,680
Depends who you are.

777
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:18,680
Yeah, exactly.

778
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,680
If you're a developer – let's class these people differently.

779
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:28,680
A shit coiner for me is somebody who wants to profit off the coin, and that's their
primary motivation.

780
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:35,680
If you're a developer, your primary motivation is to build cool shit, and this gets
rid of all that incentive model.

781
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:37,680
It also makes Bitcoin more usable.

782
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:39,680
We're going to have to come back to why people are rejecting this.

783
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:47,680
But for me, to get rid of that price incentive on shit coins makes it a lot more
interesting.

784
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:50,680
It's a lot more developer focused.

785
00:46:50,680 --> 00:47:00,680
I think we have to keep in mind how many people who are today the sort of good alt
coiners were ardent Bitcoiners in the past.

786
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:04,680
Vitalik was the Bitcoin Magazine co-founder and writer.

787
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:09,680
He was like the original Peter McCormack in a way because he was a Bitcoin Magazine
guy.

788
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:10,680
We're very similar.

789
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:20,680
He was like a full Bitcoiner for a while, and then he tried his thing.

790
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:28,680
A lot of this story is disputed, but certain things are not really disputed at all,
which is that he was a Bitcoiner.

791
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:29,680
He did Bitcoin Magazine.

792
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:36,680
He proposed this idea in Bitcoin, and then he was going to do it on some weird alt
coin, and then he made his own project.

793
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:45,680
I think people are biased against Ethereum because it was really a terrible project
in 2015 when it was being put together.

794
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,680
It was terrible, and I think it really has evolved slowly.

795
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:51,680
Not so terrible?

796
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,680
It's gotten 1% better every day.

797
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:56,680
Have you seen that meme?

798
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:57,680
Yeah.

799
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:02,680
Then when you get to that years later, it kind of evolves.

800
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:04,680
It's like a Darwinian evolution.

801
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:05,680
Okay.

802
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:13,680
So in your most objective way possible, what are the most valid criticisms of this,
which you might not want to do?

803
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:15,680
And if you don't want to do it, I'll go speak to somebody else.

804
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:24,680
I think it's perfectly fair game for you to get the criticisms from the critics and
not from me.

805
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:26,680
Where are you going to push back?

806
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:38,680
Well, people give me the miners can steal critique, but then I say that I think very
few of those people really understand the whole three to six month thing, like what
is actually required.

807
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:46,680
But also, miners can already steal from the Lightning Network, for example, by
blocking the justice transaction, so they can already do that.

808
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:49,680
But no one complains about that in the Lightning Network.

809
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:53,680
And so when I tell people that, they usually just shrug and go away.

810
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:58,680
The more important thing with that is though, that is something that the user has
opted into.

811
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:00,680
The user chooses to run.

812
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:02,680
I can remember the reckless meme with Lightning.

813
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:03,680
Yeah.

814
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:04,680
The user chooses to do this.

815
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:16,680
And certainly back in 2015 when I came up with the idea, a lot of the large blocker
group, there's another group like Roger Ver was an ardent Bitcoiner and then there's
Bitcoin Cash.

816
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,680
So another example.

817
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:31,680
But many of the large blocker people have said consistently their entire lives that
they are fully okay with what they call the SPV level of validation.

818
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:35,680
This is maybe an esoteric topic that a lot of people don't know about.

819
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:43,680
This is a section in Satoshi's white paper about you only have the headers and you
mostly, it's sometimes called trust the miners.

820
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:44,680
That's like.

821
00:49:44,809 --> 00:49:47,809
You know how it is when something is shrunk to a little tagline, you lose all the
important nuance, but it's basically.

822
00:49:47,809 --> 00:49:49,809
But all that nuance is in the main block anyway.

823
00:49:49,809 --> 00:49:51,809
Sorry, what did you mean?

824
00:49:51,809 --> 00:49:54,809
So SPV means you're only carrying the headers of the block.

825
00:49:54,809 --> 00:50:00,809
The headers are only 80 bytes each. It's four megabytes a year. So it's very easy to
get those.

826
00:50:00,809 --> 00:50:04,809
They prove all the work, but they don't prove the validity of the block.

827
00:50:05,809 --> 00:50:13,809
That is why later on when the sidechain idea was invented, the name SPV proof came
from that.

828
00:50:13,809 --> 00:50:17,809
How is the block, the validity of the block proven?

829
00:50:17,809 --> 00:50:23,809
There's no other way than to download every message and check that every message
follows all the rules.

830
00:50:23,809 --> 00:50:33,809
Sometimes people say that you can cheat with like the ZK-SNARK or something, but
it's hard because you don't really know whether or not the ZK-SNARK has
malfunctioned unless you also check.

831
00:50:34,809 --> 00:50:38,809
By downloading every message and then redo the ZK-SNARK.

832
00:50:38,809 --> 00:50:41,809
Someone needs to be the server as well.

833
00:50:41,809 --> 00:50:50,809
So when you want to know what transaction is this, what has this transaction ID,
what was the fifth transaction in block 700,000?

834
00:50:50,809 --> 00:50:53,809
Someone has to be able to look that up and get it from somewhere.

835
00:50:53,809 --> 00:50:55,809
So where do they?

836
00:50:55,809 --> 00:50:57,809
Well, the full nodes have it all.

837
00:50:58,809 --> 00:51:03,809
So this is why I say the ZK-SNARK thing is not really an end around.

838
00:51:03,809 --> 00:51:10,809
So there's no other way than someone has to have all the data and you have to check
it off for all the rules, which is hence the name of the full node.

839
00:51:10,809 --> 00:51:12,809
Hold on, just another thing.

840
00:51:12,809 --> 00:51:18,809
These sidechains or Drivechains, they have to have the same block time as Bitcoin.

841
00:51:18,809 --> 00:51:19,809
They do, yeah.

842
00:51:19,809 --> 00:51:21,809
You can do weird hacky things.

843
00:51:23,809 --> 00:51:25,809
Like build five blocks and merge them together into one?

844
00:51:25,809 --> 00:51:26,809
Yes.

845
00:51:26,809 --> 00:51:27,809
It's like a secondary.

846
00:51:27,809 --> 00:51:28,809
I don't even know.

847
00:51:28,809 --> 00:51:29,809
It's so bizarre.

848
00:51:29,809 --> 00:51:35,809
But you can have a secondary proof of work where you try to get other faster blocks
to happen on the sidechain.

849
00:51:35,809 --> 00:51:39,809
And then when it checks in with Bitcoin, it loads them all in.

850
00:51:39,809 --> 00:51:40,809
It's like a blob.

851
00:51:40,809 --> 00:51:41,809
But they could all have their own Lightning networks.

852
00:51:41,809 --> 00:51:42,809
Yes.

853
00:51:42,809 --> 00:51:44,809
But Liquid doesn't have the same block time, right?

854
00:51:44,809 --> 00:51:47,809
That's true because it does not use merge mining.

855
00:51:47,809 --> 00:51:49,809
It's its own thing.

856
00:51:49,809 --> 00:51:50,809
I see.

857
00:51:50,809 --> 00:51:51,809
Right.

858
00:51:51,809 --> 00:51:53,809
Because Liquid is not really – there's no process behind Liquid.

859
00:51:54,809 --> 00:51:56,809
It's just a multi-sig output.

860
00:51:56,809 --> 00:51:59,809
And then it's kind of like a bank account or using Coinbase or something.

861
00:51:59,809 --> 00:52:01,809
Maybe that's going a little too far, being a little too mean.

862
00:52:01,809 --> 00:52:07,809
When Liquid was first proposed, the idea was it was only for funds on exchanges.

863
00:52:07,809 --> 00:52:16,809
And the idea was all of the – you should ask Matt Corral about this because he's
even tweeted about the origin of Liquid.

864
00:52:16,809 --> 00:52:23,809
And he literally said about Blockstream's attempt to expand the scope.

865
00:52:23,809 --> 00:52:27,809
On this exact topic, he had said basically this is a bad idea.

866
00:52:27,809 --> 00:52:29,809
Don't trust anyone who says this.

867
00:52:29,809 --> 00:52:31,809
Treat them like they're trying to steal your money.

868
00:52:31,809 --> 00:52:35,809
He literally said that in public, which is the only reason why I kind of bring it up
now.

869
00:52:35,809 --> 00:52:43,809
But the original idea was you'd have all these exchanges, and the exchanges would be
the 15 multi-sig people.

870
00:52:43,809 --> 00:52:50,809
And so the logic was if you're going to have Bitcoin at an exchange at all, you
might as well just have it on the Liquid sidechain.

871
00:52:50,809 --> 00:52:56,809
Because you're just going from trusting one exchange completely to trusting like 11
or 15.

872
00:52:56,809 --> 00:53:00,809
And then it was like the coins can move seamlessly among all the exchanges.

873
00:53:00,809 --> 00:53:01,809
That makes sense.

874
00:53:01,809 --> 00:53:02,809
So that was the original idea.

875
00:53:02,809 --> 00:53:05,809
I remember when I'm back talking about it being like for trading.

876
00:53:05,809 --> 00:53:09,809
Then it kind of expanded into like – I don't know what it is.

877
00:53:10,809 --> 00:53:13,809
But say you're Bit Z sidechain.

878
00:53:13,809 --> 00:53:15,809
Would that need its own equivalent Lightning network?

879
00:53:15,809 --> 00:53:17,809
Yes.

880
00:53:17,809 --> 00:53:19,809
Interesting.

881
00:53:19,809 --> 00:53:28,809
Of course, if you copy the architecture, like you have a sidechain that's just a
code fork of Bitcoin, then you can just copy and paste.

882
00:53:28,809 --> 00:53:31,809
Okay. So we're going to have to talk to other people about this.

883
00:53:31,809 --> 00:53:35,809
So you say one of the criticisms is that miners can steal, but you've got this
three-month period.

884
00:53:35,809 --> 00:53:40,809
Yeah, I don't think it's very – it's possible, but it's not – I don't think that –
that's a risk.

885
00:53:40,809 --> 00:53:44,809
I asked Peter Weil about this once in the Netherlands.

886
00:53:44,809 --> 00:53:50,809
I said, do you think people should be allowed to spend their BTC on goods and
services?

887
00:53:50,809 --> 00:53:51,809
And of course, he says yes.

888
00:53:51,809 --> 00:53:56,809
I said, do you think people should be allowed to sell the Bitcoin for fiat?

889
00:53:56,809 --> 00:53:58,809
Of course, I say yes.

890
00:53:59,809 --> 00:54:06,809
And should people be allowed to sell their BTC for an altcoin like Ethereum or
whatever?

891
00:54:06,809 --> 00:54:09,809
Of course, I mean you have to say yes, right?

892
00:54:09,809 --> 00:54:16,809
So then this is just spending – taking a risk, spending the Bitcoin to a certain
kind of script on layer one.

893
00:54:16,809 --> 00:54:20,809
It's kind of like we have to respect the user's sovereignty.

894
00:54:20,809 --> 00:54:29,809
And like I was trying to say, the Roger Ver people, the large block people, they
were 100% okay with SPV for all of their transactions.

895
00:54:29,809 --> 00:54:30,809
But that's the Roger Ver people.

896
00:54:30,809 --> 00:54:33,809
But the other thing though is that transactions are very different, right?

897
00:54:33,809 --> 00:54:42,809
It's like the sum that – where you don't trust the person maybe, and you need it to
be – or for some reason, you need the reliability to be high.

898
00:54:42,809 --> 00:54:47,809
And then there's all these other things where you're buying something from Amazon or
you know the person.

899
00:54:47,809 --> 00:54:58,809
And you kind of – the transactions don't all need the same level of like super,
super, super ironclad like protection, right?

900
00:54:58,809 --> 00:55:05,809
Some of them you have – you walk around with money in your pocket and maybe you'll
get mugged and you'll lose.

901
00:55:05,809 --> 00:55:07,809
But you don't have your whole life savings in there.

902
00:55:07,809 --> 00:55:11,809
So there's a great – the transactions are all different as well.

903
00:55:11,809 --> 00:55:20,809
Once BIP300 is merged in, say the soft fork is – just say it is.

904
00:55:20,809 --> 00:55:27,809
Once that's done, all that is is a thing to create a bridge between that and the
sidechain.

905
00:55:27,809 --> 00:55:29,809
It doesn't have to do anything else.

906
00:55:29,809 --> 00:55:30,809
Right. That's what it's doing, yeah.

907
00:55:30,809 --> 00:55:47,809
Yeah. Because one of the things I'm thinking is like from my side is that I trust
implicitly the Bitcoin developers in terms of the quality of the code, the way they
review, make sure nothing fucks up, so I don't lose my Bitcoin, right?

908
00:55:47,809 --> 00:55:52,809
Moving into a sidechain, I've got a different trust model.

909
00:55:52,809 --> 00:55:53,809
That's right, yes.

910
00:55:53,809 --> 00:55:56,809
Yeah, because I have to trust the ones working on that sidechain, right?

911
00:55:57,809 --> 00:56:04,809
And I'm wanting to use that sidechain. I think it's cool. I like the people on it.

912
00:56:04,809 --> 00:56:13,809
But I've got this inherent belief that it maybe shares some properties in terms of
the quality of the developers, etc.

913
00:56:13,809 --> 00:56:22,809
What's to stop those developers at some point doing an update to their code and then
stealing all my coins and screwing me over?

914
00:56:22,809 --> 00:56:29,809
Well, there happens to be – I think it's fundamental to the nature of the blockchain
or whatever.

915
00:56:29,809 --> 00:56:38,809
But one of the things when you activate on the slot, we ask people – this has to be
optional because there is no way of enforcing it.

916
00:56:38,809 --> 00:56:49,809
But we ask people to put the name of the sidechain, a little description, and then
some of these hashes that determine what the software is, like version one of the
software basically.

917
00:56:50,809 --> 00:57:00,809
And it happens to be the case that if – that software is what's going to calculate
the real withdrawal, the real thing that has to get to $13,150.

918
00:57:00,809 --> 00:57:05,809
And so the only way to know what the real withdrawal is is to run the software.

919
00:57:05,809 --> 00:57:16,809
If they do an update that happens to be a hard fork of their sidechain, then almost
certainly the withdrawals coming back won't necessarily be the same.

920
00:57:16,809 --> 00:57:21,809
And then that would probably just throw the network into chaos.

921
00:57:21,809 --> 00:57:31,809
But I think the real answer is nothing because you want – I mean I just gave you a
great answer why it would be impossible for them to take the coins in that way.

922
00:57:31,809 --> 00:57:36,809
But really it's like you want – it's the same situation as when you buy Bitcoin in
the first place.

923
00:57:36,809 --> 00:57:41,809
It's like you are the user, and they have to entice you over there.

924
00:57:41,809 --> 00:57:49,809
You say, I've got my layer one coins, and they have to say, come over here to BitZ
land.

925
00:57:49,809 --> 00:57:54,809
Well, BitZ land have a similar kind of like soft fork versioning.

926
00:57:54,809 --> 00:57:56,809
Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say.

927
00:57:56,809 --> 00:57:59,809
Where are the holes for you? Is there anything you've spotted?

928
00:57:59,809 --> 00:58:01,809
I don't think so that you've not brought up.

929
00:58:01,809 --> 00:58:03,809
Have you searched criticism resolve?

930
00:58:03,809 --> 00:58:04,809
I mean yeah.

931
00:58:04,809 --> 00:58:05,809
There's another one.

932
00:58:05,809 --> 00:58:07,809
There's a change in the protocol I guess is a big one like the soft fork.

933
00:58:07,809 --> 00:58:09,809
Like is there any risk to that?

934
00:58:09,809 --> 00:58:19,809
Well, I think it's very – we can certainly expect that once people create the
sidechain, they're going to want to keep upgrading it because this is just the
software, the world.

935
00:58:19,809 --> 00:58:22,809
It's like it just always updates, right?

936
00:58:22,809 --> 00:58:25,809
Like people can't stop themselves even when they shouldn't do it.

937
00:58:26,809 --> 00:58:41,809
So it will be updating, and the soft fork I see as an institution that protects the
user though from the developer because it says basically you can change these
things, but you can't change too much or the software will basically – the different
versions of the software will no longer cooperate.

938
00:58:41,809 --> 00:58:43,809
What else have you found?

939
00:58:43,809 --> 00:58:47,809
I mean the other thing that I think of is not really a technical question.

940
00:58:47,809 --> 00:58:54,809
It's like it's why developers will build on it, not – like how would you make money
building on this?

941
00:58:54,809 --> 00:58:56,809
Yeah, I think that is a good question.

942
00:58:56,809 --> 00:59:14,809
But again, I would like to go back to like the idea that like a lot of these people
behind the good altcoins, they really were like driven – this is an opinion, but
they really seem to be driven a lot by like their own creativity.

943
00:59:14,809 --> 00:59:17,809
They wanted to make something new and they were inspired by something.

944
00:59:18,809 --> 00:59:25,809
And they usually did – in a lot of cases, they did a lot of the work like before
even becoming an altcoiner.

945
00:59:25,809 --> 00:59:34,809
And I'm not saying that that's – certainly if you choose to make a new thing, you
can maybe give some of the coins to yourself and you can do these different funding
models.

946
00:59:34,809 --> 00:59:37,809
But the thing is Bitcoin has to attract developers.

947
00:59:37,809 --> 00:59:39,809
We have the exact same problem with Bitcoin, right?

948
00:59:39,809 --> 00:59:40,809
Yeah, the exact same problem with Bitcoin.

949
00:59:40,809 --> 00:59:41,809
You have to be funded.

950
00:59:41,809 --> 00:59:46,809
You have to either get some kind of – you have like a rich sponsor or something, and
people do do it.

951
00:59:46,809 --> 00:59:53,809
It's not – I think like Roger Ver used to do this type of thing and other people
would do similar things.

952
00:59:53,809 --> 01:00:00,809
Yeah, where people would – and then in fact, I think the real problem is not the
money in our industry at all, right?

953
01:00:00,809 --> 01:00:02,809
It's just like sorting all the good ideas.

954
01:00:02,809 --> 01:00:11,809
So, this is actually – we kind of improve it on that way because they'd say people
won't go for an idea like this to work on as a developer unless they think users
will actually use it.

955
01:00:11,809 --> 01:00:17,809
And so, they have to keep in mind the user when they're creating the software, which
I think would be much healthier than –

956
01:00:17,809 --> 01:00:19,809
Could it fragment Bitcoin development?

957
01:00:19,809 --> 01:00:27,809
Well, I think – what I really think Bitcoin development should do is we should get
better at being conservative on layer one.

958
01:00:27,809 --> 01:00:34,809
And we should say – my ideal thing would be to put BIP300 in and then just ossify
layer one and move it all.

959
01:00:34,809 --> 01:00:55,809
And then I was kind of even – if I could have my own way, then the vision would
probably be to have like some kind of like ossified layer one and then even like two
competing versions of Bitcoin core, like a kind of liberal conservative version or
something where one would just start merging things soon after they're invented and
then maybe the other one would catch up later.

960
01:00:55,809 --> 01:00:59,809
But there's at least some recourse or some feedback.

961
01:00:59,809 --> 01:01:10,809
You want to have some kind of feedback loop where if development is too slow, then
people would move the coins to the more liberal world.

962
01:01:10,809 --> 01:01:16,809
And if it's too fast and it's making mistakes and people are annoyed by that, then
they move back.

963
01:01:16,809 --> 01:01:22,809
And so, I don't think we'll ever agree on what you might call meta-consensus, like
what the blockchain should contain.

964
01:01:22,809 --> 01:01:26,809
I think people will probably continue to disagree about that forever.

965
01:01:26,809 --> 01:01:30,809
And I think that sidechain is kind of a sort of an escape valve for that.

966
01:01:30,809 --> 01:01:33,809
I mean I think most of the critiques are around the fact that it actually requires a
soft fork.

967
01:01:33,809 --> 01:01:39,809
And if you don't want it, then why would you want to signal that you did want a soft
fork if you don't want to use Drivechain?

968
01:01:39,809 --> 01:01:43,809
Yes, this is another unfortunate thing is that in 2015, this was not such a big
deal.

969
01:01:44,809 --> 01:01:50,809
In 2015 alone, I don't know if my memory is going to serve, but I think we did three
soft forks in one quarter.

970
01:01:50,809 --> 01:01:53,809
And we did maybe five in the whole year. That was the year of scaling.

971
01:01:53,809 --> 01:01:55,809
There's more risk now, more at stake.

972
01:01:55,809 --> 01:01:58,809
So then I like – so at the time, I was just kind of like whatever.

973
01:01:58,809 --> 01:02:12,809
And then now, this modern, as you know perfectly well, the modern version is like to
suggest any change to Bitcoin at all is like moving a button that triggers an atomic
bomb or something.

974
01:02:12,809 --> 01:02:18,809
But Paul, we've got a lot more at stake now in 2015 with hundreds of billions more
in value.

975
01:02:18,809 --> 01:02:22,809
Yes, I see why people are more conservative now.

976
01:02:22,809 --> 01:02:29,809
I think though that it's not – I don't necessarily think it's very wise though if
you really think about it.

977
01:02:29,809 --> 01:02:32,809
I mean the risk of – there's a risk of going without it as well.

978
01:02:32,809 --> 01:02:41,809
Which is I think Ethereum gains on Bitcoin like very slowly but in a cumulative
sense, and I think why take the risk of anything?

979
01:02:41,809 --> 01:02:48,809
Like if an NFT on Bitcoin does really well, that doesn't – who cares about that?

980
01:02:48,809 --> 01:02:52,809
But if an altcoin does really well, then people start to get worried.

981
01:02:52,809 --> 01:03:02,809
And I think this is a lot of why people spend so much time on Twitter and spend a
lot of time listening to podcasts is because they're vigilantly waiting to see.

982
01:03:02,809 --> 01:03:06,809
There's no limit to how good of an idea people can have tomorrow, right?

983
01:03:06,809 --> 01:03:18,809
They're waiting to see will there be some crazy idea that like the entire government
of Russia launches its own cryptocurrency or whatever, and they'll be like waiting
for that.

984
01:03:18,809 --> 01:03:22,809
Well, I like the idea that it doesn't – there's not new coins created.

985
01:03:22,809 --> 01:03:23,809
I like the idea.

986
01:03:23,809 --> 01:03:29,809
The one thing I really like about it, it takes away the incentive, the monetary
incentive to shitcoin.

987
01:03:29,809 --> 01:03:31,809
It makes it purely about development.

988
01:03:31,809 --> 01:03:32,809
I like that.

989
01:03:32,809 --> 01:03:37,809
Everything else I can't judge until I speak to some other people and just – yeah, I
know.

990
01:03:37,809 --> 01:03:39,809
What's the pushback you've had?

991
01:03:39,809 --> 01:03:42,809
Like you must have discussed this with senior Bitcoin people.

992
01:03:42,809 --> 01:03:45,809
Does it actually remove the monetary incentive to shitcoin?

993
01:03:45,809 --> 01:03:47,809
Because the money is still there.

994
01:03:47,809 --> 01:03:55,809
Well, I think those people – like what a shitcoiner will say is they'll say buy my
new coin, and then the user will say why, and then they'll say it has feature X.

995
01:03:55,809 --> 01:04:01,809
But in the sidechain world, Bitcoin could also have feature X.

996
01:04:01,809 --> 01:04:10,809
And then sometimes what the shitcoiners say is, well, I would have loved to put
feature X on Bitcoin, but I couldn't because of such and such.

997
01:04:10,809 --> 01:04:13,809
They use the development – the Bitcoin development process is like a scapegoat.

998
01:04:14,809 --> 01:04:19,809
And so that definitely could not happen in the sidechain world.

999
01:04:19,809 --> 01:04:29,809
I think some people do say like the reason that people shitcoin is because
shitcoining is just an infinite source of money.

1000
01:04:29,809 --> 01:04:35,809
And if that's true, then nothing is going to stop them from doing that, especially
not my tiny little bit.

1001
01:04:35,809 --> 01:04:41,809
But it's not really true though because they need the pretext in order to do the
shitcoining, I think.

1002
01:04:41,809 --> 01:04:45,809
I think some people shitcoin to pre-mine, bring something to market.

1003
01:04:45,809 --> 01:04:49,809
Those people will just shift to doing like NFTs, or they'll go back to pumping
stocks or something.

1004
01:04:49,809 --> 01:04:56,809
And then I think there's some people who shitcoin because they believe in what
they're building, and it's different.

1005
01:04:56,809 --> 01:04:59,809
Both can exist.

1006
01:04:59,809 --> 01:05:06,809
But what you can't do is you're not – when you create your sidechain here, Danny,
you're not creating a whole bunch of new coins.

1007
01:05:06,809 --> 01:05:10,809
It starts with zero coins, and it only gains coins when people put Bitcoin into it.

1008
01:05:10,809 --> 01:05:11,809
I totally get it.

1009
01:05:11,809 --> 01:05:18,809
I just think that the market will – if you were going to start a project, most
shitcoins pre-mine, right?

1010
01:05:18,809 --> 01:05:20,809
That's to fund the development for however long.

1011
01:05:20,809 --> 01:05:25,809
You've got to go out to people who are willing to just give you money to try and
build a project.

1012
01:05:25,809 --> 01:05:27,809
That's a lot harder to do.

1013
01:05:27,809 --> 01:05:28,809
It's just like Bitcoin.

1014
01:05:28,809 --> 01:05:31,809
So it will follow the same funding model of Bitcoin.

1015
01:05:31,809 --> 01:05:34,809
There might be – chaincode labs might go, do you know what?

1016
01:05:34,809 --> 01:05:35,809
Let's build a sidechain.

1017
01:05:35,809 --> 01:05:37,809
So you'll always be behind, and then you're losing on the network effect.

1018
01:05:37,809 --> 01:05:39,809
Well, the thing is it's very easy to copy the altcoin.

1019
01:05:39,809 --> 01:05:48,809
So if they do some kind of weird thing to fund development or fund any other kind of
software, like when we did the Zcash,

1020
01:05:48,809 --> 01:05:55,809
we created the sidechain so that as they update Zcash, we can just pull the updates
over.

1021
01:05:55,809 --> 01:06:00,809
So you're really being very much like a parasite on the altcoin.

1022
01:06:00,809 --> 01:06:02,809
It's kind of sad.

1023
01:06:03,809 --> 01:06:08,809
It's kind of like a live by the sword, die by the sword kind of a thing.

1024
01:06:08,809 --> 01:06:15,809
See, that's the thing is Monero has much more traction than Zcash, but Zcash, the
code is more similar to Bitcoin, so we kind of did that.

1025
01:06:15,809 --> 01:06:21,809
But also I think Zcash is sort of stigmatized by they have that weird tax in there,
and they have –

1026
01:06:21,809 --> 01:06:22,809
Well, I think Zcash –

1027
01:06:22,809 --> 01:06:31,809
I think there's other reasons why Zcash would be better than Monero if it weren't
for weird community reasons is my suspicion.

1028
01:06:31,809 --> 01:06:35,809
My understanding of the criticisms of Zcash is, one, it kind of is a company.

1029
01:06:35,809 --> 01:06:37,809
Right. I think all this is true.

1030
01:06:37,809 --> 01:06:42,809
It did have the tax, and I think the other one is that it had shielded and
unshielded transactions, right?

1031
01:06:42,809 --> 01:06:45,809
And there's like a Sudoku protocol to actually crack it.

1032
01:06:45,809 --> 01:06:54,809
I actually – I think the – yeah, there's a – the Monero people love the whole
private by default meme, so they run with that.

1033
01:06:54,809 --> 01:07:00,809
But I think that's a little overblown because think about it. You can always opt
into less privacy, so everything is always –

1034
01:07:00,809 --> 01:07:04,809
I think it's more though. Isn't it like a Sudoku puzzle to try and crack?

1035
01:07:04,809 --> 01:07:05,809
What do you mean?

1036
01:07:05,809 --> 01:07:09,809
Zcash. So like I remember years – because it's been years since I listened to this.

1037
01:07:09,809 --> 01:07:14,809
I'm sure Laura Shin did a show about it once whereby you can crack the private
transactions with like a Sudoku puzzle.

1038
01:07:14,809 --> 01:07:19,809
If you've got a little bit of information, you can then start figuring out what went
to who.

1039
01:07:19,809 --> 01:07:24,809
Oh, I think – yeah, there's – relatedly, I think a lot of people misuse Zcash.

1040
01:07:24,809 --> 01:07:31,809
So I actually – in the sidechain, I built a GUI thing that I call Meltcast, which is
again – this is a purely cosmetic thing in the GUI.

1041
01:07:31,809 --> 01:07:34,809
But that has to stop people from misusing it.

1042
01:07:34,809 --> 01:07:39,809
A lot of people, what they do is they take like – it's like 13.123 Bitcoin, and they
put it into Zcash.

1043
01:07:39,809 --> 01:07:42,809
They swap it for Zcash on like whatever, an exchange.

1044
01:07:42,809 --> 01:07:55,809
Then they put it into the Z address, and then they pull – 10 minutes later, they
pull 13.004 coins out, and then they think that they mixed the coins or something.

1045
01:07:55,809 --> 01:08:00,809
I think a lot of people don't misuse the privacy, so I made it like two buttons to
click.

1046
01:08:00,809 --> 01:08:02,809
So what's the pushback you'll get them?

1047
01:08:02,809 --> 01:08:05,809
Like why is it – you have to –

1048
01:08:05,809 --> 01:08:10,809
I think – well, I mean you should get it from them.

1049
01:08:10,809 --> 01:08:22,809
My honest opinion though is that a lot of it is irrational or like psychological or
something where people think, well, if it would give Roger Ver and Vitalik what they
want, then there must be something wrong with it.

1050
01:08:22,809 --> 01:08:24,809
I think a lot of people can't do that.

1051
01:08:24,809 --> 01:08:25,809
I don't buy that.

1052
01:08:25,809 --> 01:08:35,809
I think another thing is that like I said before, people feel really responsible for
– they want their code to be pristine, and they trust the Bitcoin core developers.

1053
01:08:36,809 --> 01:08:41,809
This is shifting to a world where it's kind of like anything can go.

1054
01:08:41,809 --> 01:08:51,809
Like you send it to a weird sidechain, and inevitably there will be bad – someone
will do a sidechain that has a mistake or something bad will happen over there.

1055
01:08:51,809 --> 01:08:56,809
Then people think, well, we're going to be – our reputations are all going to be on
the hook for that.

1056
01:08:56,809 --> 01:09:04,809
So I'm giving like a blank check or a blank slate to these people, and they think,
well, we don't want something like to happen.

1057
01:09:04,809 --> 01:09:11,809
Of course, that happened anyway with like Celsius and things where it had basically
nothing to do with Bitcoin at all, but we're still tarred by it.

1058
01:09:11,809 --> 01:09:13,809
So I think that's another thing.

1059
01:09:13,809 --> 01:09:16,809
I wouldn't use the Celsius as an analogy.

1060
01:09:16,809 --> 01:09:17,809
I think that's different.

1061
01:09:17,809 --> 01:09:21,809
I'm just saying like things that can affect the brand, the Bitcoin brand.

1062
01:09:21,809 --> 01:09:23,809
Yeah, but again, I think that's different.

1063
01:09:23,809 --> 01:09:25,809
But I do buy that as a reason not.

1064
01:09:25,809 --> 01:09:27,809
That was one of the things I brought up.

1065
01:09:27,809 --> 01:09:31,809
What about – do you think there's any kind of protectionism around Liquid with this?

1066
01:09:32,809 --> 01:09:48,809
I do wonder about – I think people maybe are afraid to go against – they see
Blockstream as representing like a kind of center of gravity for the technical
consensus, and they just think, well, do I want to poke the dragon or something with
that?

1067
01:09:48,809 --> 01:09:49,809
They probably think maybe not.

1068
01:09:49,809 --> 01:09:50,809
I don't know.

1069
01:09:50,809 --> 01:09:52,809
It could be related to that.

1070
01:09:53,809 --> 01:09:54,809
I don't know.

1071
01:09:54,809 --> 01:09:59,809
I ask a lot of people, and they'll say something weird.

1072
01:09:59,809 --> 01:10:03,809
They'll say, well, I don't really have any problem with it, but I think other people
have a problem with it.

1073
01:10:03,809 --> 01:10:06,809
They're like a round robin, and they can't quite nail it down.

1074
01:10:06,809 --> 01:10:08,809
Do you have any high-profile supporters?

1075
01:10:08,809 --> 01:10:17,809
Well, I think – I don't want to get them into trouble and name them or something,
but I think I do have most of the elite people at the top.

1076
01:10:17,809 --> 01:10:23,809
I think Adam Peck has always been a supportive tweeter, and even other people.

1077
01:10:23,809 --> 01:10:26,809
I think Roast Beef and Lightning and stuff.

1078
01:10:26,809 --> 01:10:34,809
So I have a lot of people at the top, and then people beneath them in the pyramid
are big critics.

1079
01:10:34,809 --> 01:10:38,809
I don't know if – but I don't – why should it be about who supports it?

1080
01:10:38,809 --> 01:10:39,809
I don't know.

1081
01:10:39,809 --> 01:10:42,809
I guess it's because a lot of people just can't understand the technology
themselves.

1082
01:10:42,809 --> 01:10:44,809
It's getting that social consensus.

1083
01:10:44,809 --> 01:10:46,809
Well, I agree with that.

1084
01:10:46,809 --> 01:10:48,809
I agree that it's the wrong thing to do.

1085
01:10:48,809 --> 01:10:55,809
The idea has been around for a while, and I agree that it's the wrong thing to do is
to force it on someone if they don't consent to it,

1086
01:10:55,809 --> 01:10:57,809
and they can't really consent to it unless they understand it.

1087
01:10:57,809 --> 01:10:59,809
It has to be informed consent.

1088
01:10:59,809 --> 01:11:00,809
We do that anyway.

1089
01:11:00,809 --> 01:11:06,809
With SegWit, you were talking before about how people understand.

1090
01:11:06,809 --> 01:11:12,809
People have to be talked into the software, and it's a big process, but many people
supported SegWit for a while.

1091
01:11:12,809 --> 01:11:14,809
It was clear they didn't understand it at all.

1092
01:11:14,809 --> 01:11:18,809
Even years later, they didn't realize that it was a block size increase.

1093
01:11:18,809 --> 01:11:29,809
They didn't realize that it changed it so that a transaction that had used more
bytes could be charged less in fees than a non-SegWit transaction that used fewer
bytes.

1094
01:11:29,809 --> 01:11:37,809
So people clearly didn't understand basics about it at all, and they just kind of
went with the – for the Twitter likes.

1095
01:11:37,809 --> 01:11:40,809
What about Matt Carollo and Andrew Polstra?

1096
01:11:40,809 --> 01:11:41,809
What do they think?

1097
01:11:41,809 --> 01:11:46,809
Well, I think Andrew Polstra is not really a supporter per se, but I don't know.

1098
01:11:46,809 --> 01:11:47,809
You should ask him recently.

1099
01:11:47,809 --> 01:11:50,809
I mean he was like doing the miners can steal thing or something.

1100
01:11:50,809 --> 01:12:01,809
So I think a lot of this was like Peter Todd came out with the miners can steal as
like a meme after Blockstream published the SPV proof, and then they did another
thing.

1101
01:12:01,809 --> 01:12:07,809
Deep in the technical community, there was this belief about merged mining that I
think is backwards of the truth.

1102
01:12:08,809 --> 01:12:30,809
So I think that that's part of why they abandoned their Appendix B and their
sidechain aspirations because they were like the merged mining gives an incentive
for miners to run full nodes of all the sidechains, and of course all the altcoins
that are already merged mine today, of which there are dozens.

1103
01:12:31,809 --> 01:12:43,809
And so this is supposedly a bad thing because there could be an unlimited list of
sidechains that would be profitable to run, and then they'd basically be forced into
running them.

1104
01:12:43,809 --> 01:12:51,809
But I don't think that this argument is sort of backwards because there's an
unlimited list of everything that miners have to do in order to stay competitive.

1105
01:12:51,809 --> 01:12:59,809
Whatever – if someone is doing the natural gas flaring and you're in a similar
situation but you're not doing it, then that eventually becomes mandatory for you.

1106
01:12:59,809 --> 01:13:00,809
So really everything is mandatory.

1107
01:13:00,809 --> 01:13:02,809
What happens if they don't?

1108
01:13:02,809 --> 01:13:06,809
That's the point. It's really no different than any other business decision they
would make.

1109
01:13:06,809 --> 01:13:10,809
They would look at the revenues and the costs and the risks, and they would just
decide.

1110
01:13:10,809 --> 01:13:11,809
Whether they want to run that.

1111
01:13:11,809 --> 01:13:13,809
Whether they want to do it. There's no difference between running it.

1112
01:13:13,809 --> 01:13:20,809
The prejudice is because this particular mining activity takes the form of
blockchain software.

1113
01:13:20,809 --> 01:13:24,809
That's why people thought they were responsible for it.

1114
01:13:24,809 --> 01:13:33,809
This idea of responsibility I think is big where people think they're going to be
responsible for everything that happens, but I think it's a mistake.

1115
01:13:33,809 --> 01:13:39,809
They have to take out a piece of paper and make columns, and they'll realize they're
not responsible.

1116
01:13:39,809 --> 01:13:44,809
Bitcoin developers are not responsible for what miners do.

1117
01:13:44,809 --> 01:13:48,809
Miners are going to invent all kinds of wacky techniques.

1118
01:13:49,809 --> 01:13:53,809
For years, they already were doing their own weird software stuff.

1119
01:13:53,809 --> 01:13:56,809
They all shared a mempool at one point.

1120
01:13:56,809 --> 01:14:01,809
They were doing what's called SPV mining.

1121
01:14:01,809 --> 01:14:04,809
It's going to be really confusing to keep reusing this abbreviation.

1122
01:14:04,809 --> 01:14:07,809
They were doing a different type of mining where they weren't validating.

1123
01:14:07,809 --> 01:14:10,809
That led to this event in July 2015, I think.

1124
01:14:10,809 --> 01:14:13,809
They were doing this thing called spy mining.

1125
01:14:13,809 --> 01:14:15,809
They do all this stuff.

1126
01:14:15,809 --> 01:14:20,809
They're specialists in their own field that is basically unrelated to this.

1127
01:14:20,809 --> 01:14:26,809
The only important thing is you want to keep the layer one node very cheap to run.

1128
01:14:26,809 --> 01:14:36,809
Ideally, you want to ossify it as well because plenty of people, such as Luke Dashjr., think you have to always run the latest version.

1129
01:14:36,809 --> 01:14:41,809
Then I say, how do you know what the latest version is if you're not involved in the
technical community?

1130
01:14:41,809 --> 01:14:44,809
Then Luke will say something like, I hope I'm not mis-

1131
01:14:45,713 --> 01:15:12,713
representing his view. I think I'm representing it accurately. He says basically
something like, in order to really run the Bitcoin node, you have to be involved in
the technical community. Then it's kind of like, well, that's like... Then you
understand that makes running a full node really expensive, right? Because now
you're... Luke thinks you should, 70% of the people, Bitcoiners, should be running a
node as well. Yes, right. I even ask him, what about people who

1132
01:15:12,713 --> 01:15:21,033
they would never become Bitcoiners, but if they were ramped up and they start with
Custodial and then they go to SPV, and then like three years later, they're on a
full node.

1133
01:15:21,633 --> 01:15:27,113
But without the ramp, they would never make it. And then there's just nothing to say
to that. So I don't know.

1134
01:15:27,433 --> 01:15:29,913
I don't know, man. Is there anything we've not covered in this?

1135
01:15:29,913 --> 01:15:42,393
Just one quick thing. I understand the moral thing of wanting to build everything on
Bitcoin. But if the idea is to go out into the altcoin market to see what you think
is cool, and then take that

1136
01:15:42,393 --> 01:15:51,113
code and build on a sidechain on Bitcoin. Does it just become like a morality test
to shitcoin? Because if you go out, you like prediction markets, right?

1137
01:15:51,113 --> 01:15:57,993
So if you go out and you take Augur, and you copy that code and you put on a
sidechain, why not just use Augur?

1138
01:15:58,073 --> 01:16:06,993
That's an ironic example, because I created Truthcoin as a sidechain of Bitcoin
before there were sidechains. And Augur is a fork of the Truthcoin project.

1139
01:16:06,993 --> 01:16:18,433
But the reason why is because everyone would rather use, it's the Metcalfe's law,
it's a network effect of money. People are not going to want to use all these
different forms of money.

1140
01:16:20,433 --> 01:16:20,833
You know what I mean?

1141
01:16:24,913 --> 01:16:27,833
Does Augur not have network effect in the price prediction market?

1142
01:16:28,313 --> 01:16:38,473
There's a difference between what you would use as money in these markets. All the
sidechains would use Bitcoin as money, they just pay the transaction fee in Bitcoin.

1143
01:16:38,953 --> 01:16:49,873
There could be other assets and other things trading on there, like whatever, NFTs
or other markets, other derivatives and things. So those would be their own thing,
and they have their own price, of course.

1144
01:16:50,873 --> 01:17:01,913
But the real reason is because there's no, like, the sidechain equalizes all the
tech. So now the monetary network effects are really all that would remain.

1145
01:17:02,113 --> 01:17:16,513
So if you're the smallest one, this is a very old anti-altcoin argument, like,
you're the smallest altcoin, you're in a kind of like, you know, like a Mexican
standoff where it's kind of like, is this network going to be around?

1146
01:17:16,553 --> 01:17:25,153
And so then maybe people move from that to the second smallest, and the smallest one
dies, and now you're the new smallest, and then everyone's thinking two steps ahead.

1147
01:17:25,153 --> 01:17:28,753
So there's a rush to get into the biggest coin.

1148
01:17:28,993 --> 01:17:35,153
But the sidechain idea is to equalize the technology so that that's not a basis for
competing at all.

1149
01:17:35,153 --> 01:17:44,553
So you just say, well, I already own all this Bitcoin, and I can now use it in any
of these projects if I want to use it.

1150
01:17:44,593 --> 01:18:07,193
But then as an investor in a coin, you think, well, I've invested in whatever it is,
like Zcash the coin, but now the, you know, Zcash the coin now is not, since anyone
can do what Zcash is doing, then you have to wonder about, why am I holding the
coin?

1151
01:18:07,193 --> 01:18:10,993
Because I must be holding it for the monetary network effects.

1152
01:18:10,993 --> 01:18:12,193
Yeah, makes sense.

1153
01:18:12,193 --> 01:18:13,193
Yeah, sweet.

1154
01:18:13,833 --> 01:18:15,833
Anything we didn't cover, we didn't ask you about?

1155
01:18:17,833 --> 01:18:18,833
I don't know.

1156
01:18:18,833 --> 01:18:19,833
I don't think so.

1157
01:18:19,833 --> 01:18:21,833
So, tell me your background.

1158
01:18:24,833 --> 01:18:25,833
Do you really want to know?

1159
01:18:25,833 --> 01:18:28,833
I just, I used to work in academia.

1160
01:18:28,833 --> 01:18:29,833
I was a statistician.

1161
01:18:29,833 --> 01:18:30,833
Okay.

1162
01:18:30,833 --> 01:18:31,833
Makes sense.

1163
01:18:31,833 --> 01:18:35,833
I was a statistician at the Yale Department of Economics for two and a half years.

1164
01:18:35,833 --> 01:18:41,833
And then I worked, I did some other things before that that are kind of boring.

1165
01:18:42,473 --> 01:18:45,473
But mostly was right out of school into that, into being a statistician.

1166
01:18:45,473 --> 01:18:53,473
And then I came up with the Truthcoin prediction markets idea that later became
several projects, including Augur.

1167
01:18:53,473 --> 01:18:57,473
But it's still waiting at Bitcoin Hivemind for sidechains to come to Bitcoin.

1168
01:18:57,473 --> 01:18:58,473
It's its own great project.

1169
01:18:58,473 --> 01:19:01,473
You could do your own, you could do a whole other episode about that.

1170
01:19:01,473 --> 01:19:06,473
I think the prediction market is way misunderstood and misused.

1171
01:19:07,113 --> 01:19:16,113
And as soon as people put the pieces together the right way, it will be better than
the printing press was for the Middle Ages.

1172
01:19:16,113 --> 01:19:19,113
So, huge potential there.

1173
01:19:19,113 --> 01:19:20,113
That's going to be a great sidechain.

1174
01:19:20,113 --> 01:19:21,113
We'll do that show.

1175
01:19:21,113 --> 01:19:23,113
Yours truly, one day maybe.

1176
01:19:23,113 --> 01:19:29,113
And so that was, so I wrote that and then Roger Ver hired me away to quit.

1177
01:19:29,113 --> 01:19:30,113
That was a long time ago.

1178
01:19:30,113 --> 01:19:35,113
That was how I got into Bitcoin, via the Roger Ver experience or whatever.

1179
01:19:35,753 --> 01:19:38,753
And then that was for only a little while.

1180
01:19:39,753 --> 01:19:42,753
Maybe a year and a half and then I did some more things.

1181
01:19:42,753 --> 01:19:43,753
We can cover that though.

1182
01:19:43,753 --> 01:19:44,753
I'm interested in prediction markets.

1183
01:19:44,753 --> 01:19:46,753
Let's get you back on this time we're in New York.

1184
01:19:46,753 --> 01:19:47,753
We'll talk about it.

1185
01:19:47,753 --> 01:19:50,753
Also, you look a lot like my brother, which is really weird.

1186
01:19:50,753 --> 01:19:51,753
I don't know if you noticed that, don't you?

1187
01:19:51,753 --> 01:19:52,753
Oh my gosh.

1188
01:19:52,753 --> 01:19:53,753
I do.

1189
01:19:53,753 --> 01:19:54,753
Yeah, you look a lot like my brother.

1190
01:19:54,753 --> 01:19:57,753
Okay, if people want to find out more about Drivechains, where can they do that?

1191
01:19:57,753 --> 01:19:58,753
Yeah, drivechain.info.

1192
01:19:58,753 --> 01:19:59,753
That's it.

1193
01:19:59,753 --> 01:20:00,753
Easy as pie.

1194
01:20:00,753 --> 01:20:01,753
It's all up there.

1195
01:20:01,753 --> 01:20:02,753
All right, man.

1196
01:20:02,753 --> 01:20:03,753
Well, look, appreciate you coming in.

1197
01:20:03,753 --> 01:20:04,753
Sorry we started late.

1198
01:20:05,393 --> 01:20:08,393
I understand a lot more about it now and I think I know why I like it.

1199
01:20:08,393 --> 01:20:12,393
I like it for the thing that you're unsure about, but I do like it.

1200
01:20:12,393 --> 01:20:16,393
I like that fact that it just gives me one currency to go around and do all these
other

1201
01:20:16,393 --> 01:20:17,393
things.

1202
01:20:17,393 --> 01:20:18,393
I like that a lot.

1203
01:20:18,393 --> 01:20:19,393
So that's cool.

1204
01:20:19,393 --> 01:20:20,393
All right, man.

1205
01:20:20,393 --> 01:20:21,393
Take care.

1206
01:20:34,753 --> 01:20:35,753
Take care.