1
00:00:00,561 --> 00:00:05,201
Welcome to Drivechain, Drivechain Twitter Spaces.

2
00:00:05,201 --> 00:00:07,601
I hope everyone's having a great day.

3
00:00:07,601 --> 00:00:10,441
Samuel, I see you in the audience.

4
00:00:10,441 --> 00:00:14,401
I loved your recent article in Bitcoin Magazine.

5
00:00:14,401 --> 00:00:16,281
It was really great.

6
00:00:16,281 --> 00:00:26,001
It was all about Drivechain and how Drivechain can be an amazing feature for Bitcoin.

7
00:00:26,001 --> 00:00:28,721
If you'd like to come up and talk about it, you're welcome to, or you're welcome to also

8
00:00:28,721 --> 00:00:33,801
just listen in the audience today.

9
00:00:33,801 --> 00:00:40,601
In preparation for this Drivechain Twitter Spaces, there have been a bunch of tweets

10
00:00:40,601 --> 00:00:42,601
that I shared.

11
00:00:42,601 --> 00:00:58,641
Let me put those up in the nest, and then people can refer to them.

12
00:00:58,641 --> 00:01:04,721
The first one, there it is.

13
00:01:04,721 --> 00:01:11,601
Adam Back, he wrote just a few days ago that he is an innovation maximalist and altcoin

14
00:01:11,601 --> 00:01:13,961
seniorage critic.

15
00:01:13,961 --> 00:01:21,681
This is in a thread that begins with Blockstream's tweet featuring Adam Back and Paul Sztorc

16
00:01:21,681 --> 00:01:25,480
talking about layer twos.

17
00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:33,440
The next tweet under that Blockstream tweet was a tweet by a Zcash proponent, and Adam

18
00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:38,480
then replied, innovation maximalist, altcoin seniorage critic.

19
00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:47,041
I think that Dr. Back understands perfectly what Drivechain is all about, which is that

20
00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:58,080
it is designed to eliminate altcoin seniorage while enabling all of the technological innovation

21
00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:03,400
that altcoins have facilitated so far.

22
00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:14,921
Once Drivechain is enabled, then all of that building can continue on Bitcoin in Drivechains

23
00:02:14,921 --> 00:02:18,200
rather than in altcoins.

24
00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:22,641
So Adam gets that very well.

25
00:02:22,641 --> 00:02:25,240
So that is the first tweet for discussion today.

26
00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:33,801
It's in the nest, so listeners can look up and see it right there in our Twitter Spaces.

27
00:02:33,801 --> 00:02:39,441
One of Dr. Back's recent excellent tweets, he has so many, it was tough to choose, but

28
00:02:39,441 --> 00:02:44,161
I selected that one for conversation.

29
00:02:44,161 --> 00:02:48,081
If anybody wants to come up and talk about it, they're welcome to, or we can move on

30
00:02:48,081 --> 00:02:50,600
to tweet number two.

31
00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:56,441
All right, let's do it.

32
00:02:56,441 --> 00:03:02,960
Tweet number two is by Fiatjaf.

33
00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:04,001
And there it is.

34
00:03:04,001 --> 00:03:07,641
It's now pasted in the nest.

35
00:03:07,641 --> 00:03:11,561
This is Fiatjaf writing yesterday.

36
00:03:11,561 --> 00:03:19,281
What Drivechain is not, it's not a tweak that weakens basic Bitcoin consensus rules.

37
00:03:19,281 --> 00:03:24,361
It's not a tweak that increases the block size.

38
00:03:24,361 --> 00:03:29,161
It's not a change that puts your coins at risk.

39
00:03:29,161 --> 00:03:32,840
It's not a scheme that centralizes mining.

40
00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:39,721
But what it is, what Drivechain is, is a way to give users the option to put their coins

41
00:03:40,001 --> 00:03:43,001
under a hash rate escrow.

42
00:03:43,001 --> 00:03:45,760
And that's what it's all about.

43
00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:54,760
Letting people use synthetic Bitcoin on a separate blockchain that is merged mine with

44
00:03:54,760 --> 00:04:01,561
Bitcoin, and when they're done, approximately 100% of their transaction fees have been paid

45
00:04:01,561 --> 00:04:07,921
to Bitcoin miners, and they can get their original Bitcoin back on layer one.

46
00:04:07,921 --> 00:04:17,001
So to use a word that Dr. Back likes, Drivechain is designed to increase Bitcoin's extensibility,

47
00:04:17,001 --> 00:04:23,761
meaning the development and customization of technology on top of Bitcoin in a way that's

48
00:04:23,761 --> 00:04:29,321
economically harmonious with Bitcoin.

49
00:04:29,321 --> 00:04:31,001
I forgot to introduce myself today.

50
00:04:31,001 --> 00:04:33,321
I try to always do that.

51
00:04:33,321 --> 00:04:38,761
Speaking to you right now from LayerTwo Labs Twitter handle is Henry, Henry Magrum.

52
00:04:38,761 --> 00:04:47,161
I am the lawyer at LayerTwo Labs, and I'm also the social media guy at the moment.

53
00:04:47,161 --> 00:04:49,960
You know, at a startup, you got to wear multiple hats.

54
00:04:49,960 --> 00:05:00,321
So this is Henry speaking, and everyone is welcome to come up if they'd like and chat.

55
00:05:00,321 --> 00:05:06,680
Let's move on to tweet number three.

56
00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:12,721
Tweet number three is from one of our audience members.

57
00:05:12,721 --> 00:05:25,840
It is by Samuel, and he wrote, we are on the precipice of a new era, either economic freedom

58
00:05:25,840 --> 00:05:27,640
or economic servitude.

59
00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:32,281
Bitcoin is the only credible solution we have access to.

60
00:05:32,281 --> 00:05:34,960
We must protect it at all costs.

61
00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:40,920
We must succeed for the sake of our future and the futures of our children.

62
00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,800
We need to take a closer look at BIP300.

63
00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:50,201
And then he links to his article, which was really great, published yesterday by Bitcoin

64
00:05:50,201 --> 00:05:57,120
Magazine titled, Why Drivechain is Our Best Chance to Secure Bitcoin into the Future.

65
00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,960
All right.

66
00:05:59,960 --> 00:06:03,161
So that's the third tweet for discussion.

67
00:06:03,161 --> 00:06:06,680
Let's go on to tweet number four.

68
00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,281
We're getting through them pretty fast.

69
00:06:09,281 --> 00:06:13,680
Everyone's welcome to come up and chat if you'd like.

70
00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,360
You can just raise your hand.

71
00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:20,520
If you're having trouble coming up, give me like a thumbs up or something or a thumbs

72
00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:32,800
down in the audience, and then I can invite you up if you're having any trouble

73
00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,561
getting onto the stage.

74
00:06:35,561 --> 00:06:41,120
The next tweet is from Alex Kravitz.

75
00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:45,161
I've now posted it in the Nest.

76
00:06:45,161 --> 00:06:59,400
He wrote, claiming Bitcoin is only for money is like demanding the Internet must only be

77
00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:07,041
used for email, its original killer app, while social networks, Netflix, podcast, etc., all

78
00:07:07,041 --> 00:07:11,161
work on a separate super Internet network.

79
00:07:11,161 --> 00:07:14,881
That is exactly what's being argued now by pseudo-Maxis.

80
00:07:14,881 --> 00:07:17,321
I agree entirely with that tweet.

81
00:07:17,321 --> 00:07:23,920
What we've got is a bunch of people who think that Bitcoin should only be used for a certain

82
00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,281
kind of money.

83
00:07:26,281 --> 00:07:31,360
But you see, even if it were true that Bitcoin were only for money, there would still be

84
00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,281
a question.

85
00:07:34,281 --> 00:07:35,281
What kind of money?

86
00:07:35,281 --> 00:07:36,400
Should it be very scalable?

87
00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,360
Should it be very private?

88
00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:41,840
How much decentralization should there be?

89
00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:49,201
So what we need is people to understand that money is actually usually a layered system

90
00:07:49,201 --> 00:07:56,721
where people can opt in to various exposures and features.

91
00:07:56,721 --> 00:08:00,881
Even with gold, there was gold bars, there were gold coins.

92
00:08:00,881 --> 00:08:17,321
And it wasn't like everyone just used the same size coin all the time.

93
00:08:17,321 --> 00:08:21,561
And people could even like turn their gold into an artwork.

94
00:08:21,561 --> 00:08:25,601
So it had that kind of malleability.

95
00:08:25,601 --> 00:08:30,441
And similarly with Bitcoin, the drivechain vision is that there's like a digital gold

96
00:08:30,441 --> 00:08:37,360
base layer that has high fees and high decentralization.

97
00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:38,761
And then we have a layered system.

98
00:08:38,761 --> 00:08:44,561
People can opt into sending some of their money into a much more flexible environment

99
00:08:44,561 --> 00:08:52,441
for other kinds of experiences like more privacy, more scalability, greater expressivity.

100
00:08:52,441 --> 00:08:58,561
And then if all those layers are using synthetic Bitcoin, then the whole thing is economically

101
00:08:58,561 --> 00:08:59,561
aligned.

102
00:08:59,561 --> 00:09:00,561
Welcome to the stage, Alex.

103
00:09:00,561 --> 00:09:01,561
How's it going?

104
00:09:01,561 --> 00:09:02,561
It's going good.

105
00:09:02,561 --> 00:09:14,040
I just wanted to clarify something because I saw a reaction to my tweet saying that basically

106
00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:16,120
drivechains enable the super internet.

107
00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:20,841
But I think the metaphor breaks down here a little bit because when it comes to network

108
00:09:20,841 --> 00:09:24,360
protocols, TCPIP could carry any traffic on top.

109
00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:29,040
And then you have, you know, on top of IP protocol, you have TCP protocol, on top of

110
00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:34,240
TCP protocol, you have HTTP, on top of HTTP, you have HTML, and so on and so forth.

111
00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:38,761
But all these things ultimately are data sent across the network.

112
00:09:38,761 --> 00:09:47,720
The metaphor breaks down to Bitcoin because Bitcoin can be viewed in this context as more

113
00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:53,120
of a first instance of a video game around digital scarcity.

114
00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:57,040
But you can create other games, other gaming protocols.

115
00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:03,761
So for example, not just being able to huddle Bitcoin, but to use it as collateral, right?

116
00:10:03,761 --> 00:10:08,360
That's a different game that uses the same asset.

117
00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:15,321
Or to use it as a reserve for a decentralized US dollar, for example, which is what the

118
00:10:15,321 --> 00:10:17,240
world really needs, right?

119
00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:23,240
And you know, the biggest decentralized US dollar maximalist out there is Mr. Gensler

120
00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:31,920
because he's attacking custodial stable coins now, which will simply drive people to whatever

121
00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:38,480
alternatives are available, right?

122
00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:39,920
Well said.

123
00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:44,040
Would you like to look through the tweets that I've shared in the nest, maybe scroll

124
00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:45,040
back to them?

125
00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:51,201
Considering how interesting your comments were last week, I would love to hear if you

126
00:10:51,201 --> 00:10:56,961
have any perspective on some of these.

127
00:10:56,961 --> 00:10:57,961
Do you see them?

128
00:10:57,961 --> 00:10:58,961
Do you see Adam back in the nest?

129
00:10:58,961 --> 00:11:02,360
Let me see if I can find this nest UI area.

130
00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:07,201
I've never seen this before, but is this a thread underneath the...

131
00:11:07,201 --> 00:11:10,561
No, it's when you're in the Twitter space.

132
00:11:10,561 --> 00:11:13,761
You're in the Twitter space, you look at the title, right under the title there's a tweet

133
00:11:13,881 --> 00:11:16,680
and you can scroll left or right to see the other one.

134
00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:17,680
Okay.

135
00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:23,600
So first of all, the problem in sidechain is going to change the trade-off, more lightning

136
00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:24,600
optimization.

137
00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:25,600
Okay.

138
00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:26,600
I see it.

139
00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:36,321
Yeah, that's from a thread he put out yesterday, he put out a long thread all about Bitcoin

140
00:11:36,321 --> 00:11:40,680
layer twos and the future and the price of Bitcoin.

141
00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:45,720
And near the end of the thread, he got pretty interesting where he talked about future development

142
00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,761
and he wrote this tweet where he mentions drivechains.

143
00:11:49,761 --> 00:11:51,360
So I like that.

144
00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:59,081
Well, I mean, Adam has a lot of prestige and deservedly so, right?

145
00:11:59,081 --> 00:12:04,881
But he's not omniscient about all the ideas floating around the Bitcoin space.

146
00:12:04,881 --> 00:12:11,641
Like for example, it's clear to me that he, as well as other OG technical computer science

147
00:12:11,641 --> 00:12:17,720
people are still oblivious to what's happened in validity rollups world, right?

148
00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:27,120
In other words, their holy grail dream of having fully trust-minimized two-way peg with

149
00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:33,201
the same security guarantees as Bitcoin itself has been realized, but they're misinformed

150
00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:38,841
about it or ignorant about it, I don't know what, but basically that's, you know, like

151
00:12:38,841 --> 00:12:46,081
Jameson Lobb, for example, even though he links to Bitcoin rollups.org report, he actually

152
00:12:46,081 --> 00:12:51,480
didn't internalize the message of the report, which is, hello, Bitcoiners, you've been dreaming

153
00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:58,321
about this since, you know, 2012, 2013, when the first talk of two-way pegs and sidechains

154
00:12:58,321 --> 00:12:59,321
was brought up.

155
00:12:59,761 --> 00:13:04,321
And, you know, there was some messages by Greg Maxwell saying that perhaps ZK Snarks

156
00:13:04,321 --> 00:13:10,641
will allow us to verify execution of the other chain and therefore to allow the transfer

157
00:13:10,641 --> 00:13:15,920
of coins back from the other chain to Bitcoin, and that would essentially propagate Bitcoin's

158
00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,040
network effect to other domains, right?

159
00:13:21,761 --> 00:13:26,360
So, you know, the fact that Adam is only now waking up to how important drivechains are

160
00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:31,321
is basically because a lot of, he's in the camp, I think he's in the camp of people who

161
00:13:31,321 --> 00:13:38,441
are just blindsided by the monetary uses of Bitcoin and think it'll be enough to, you

162
00:13:38,441 --> 00:13:42,321
know, to take over the world and get to a hundred trillion dollar market cap.

163
00:13:42,321 --> 00:13:46,720
Now, they may be right in the long run, right?

164
00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:51,081
But that doesn't mean that we won't have a flippening or two, or even lappening as they

165
00:13:51,081 --> 00:13:54,561
call it in the Ethereum world, in other words, who in the Ethereum market cap not just exceeds

166
00:13:54,561 --> 00:13:59,081
Bitcoin's market cap, but it can exceed Bitcoin market cap two or three times over.

167
00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:05,521
Now, I can already tell you what the cope will be by the SOV extremists, you know, that

168
00:14:05,521 --> 00:14:10,521
claim that Bitcoin is nothing but a store of value like digital gold, right?

169
00:14:10,521 --> 00:14:15,641
They will say, well, you know, Ethereum is just a giant tech platform and there will be

170
00:14:15,641 --> 00:14:16,961
some truth in that, right?

171
00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:23,561
But declaring that Ethereum is just a giant tech platform, even though it might be true

172
00:14:23,561 --> 00:14:30,201
for now, does not preclude Ethereum from ossifying and becoming a protocol that has

173
00:14:30,201 --> 00:14:32,160
rules, but no rules in the future.

174
00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,720
Right. Would you agree with would you agree with the following very simple way of putting

175
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:43,761
it, that Ethereum is kind of like a layer two without a layer one and Bitcoin is kind

176
00:14:43,761 --> 00:14:47,600
of like a layer one that hasn't yet developed fully.

177
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:48,480
It's layer two.

178
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,201
How do you mean that Ethereum doesn't have layer one?

179
00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:59,680
Well, I mean it only in the following sense that they have like a history of like

180
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:05,240
changes and forks and there's more experimentation there.

181
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:10,120
So it's kind of like they don't have like it's like they don't have a set of drive.

182
00:15:10,881 --> 00:15:15,401
It's like a set of drivechains without that ossified conservative digital gold

183
00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:16,881
foundation. Right.

184
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:23,360
They just chose the kind of the opposite strategy for evolution.

185
00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:28,561
Right. Which is as opposed to extreme conservatism, you know, they embody the Silicon

186
00:15:28,561 --> 00:15:31,480
Valley ethos of, you know, move fast and break things.

187
00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:37,680
And essentially that empowers, you know, I hate that cliche word empowers, but it empowers

188
00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:44,160
all these 20 something hotshot coders from around the world to come into Ethereum and

189
00:15:44,561 --> 00:15:48,920
do their ICOs, do their startups, get rich, do whatever the hell they're doing.

190
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:53,040
And basically that's eventually created kind of a snowball effect of its own.

191
00:15:53,521 --> 00:15:59,280
And, you know, Ethereum started out as a as kind of a delusional fantasy of Vitalik.

192
00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,720
And then later he was backed by scammers from Canada, you know, the consensus Joe

193
00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:11,321
Lubin, et cetera. But in 2017-18 bull market, it was a platform that would spawn ICO

194
00:16:11,321 --> 00:16:17,280
shit coins. But in the last few years, it's a platform that's spawning other platforms.

195
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:22,081
Right. So you can no longer dismiss it as a mother of all scams.

196
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:23,561
It used to be that.

197
00:16:23,561 --> 00:16:29,841
Right. But now you have things like Aave and things like Uniswap and Liquidity and you

198
00:16:29,841 --> 00:16:33,761
have these protocols that have tens of billions of dollars in total locked value and

199
00:16:33,761 --> 00:16:38,001
it's used by hedge funds and wealthy individuals across the world and so on and so

200
00:16:38,001 --> 00:16:47,321
forth. So, you know, it's it's chosen the strategy of get fast big and then maybe

201
00:16:48,201 --> 00:16:49,321
ossify later.

202
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:54,160
Right. Because, I mean, if you look at Vitalik's roadmap, the last portion of his

203
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,120
roadmap, which, you know, has merged at the top and then there is purge, scourge,

204
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:06,321
whatever, surge. The last one is the one where they rip out all the ugly technical

205
00:17:06,321 --> 00:17:13,040
debt and do the final hard fork to simplify Ethereum, which presumably stabilizes the

206
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,961
bottom layer. So, yeah, I agree with your with your idea.

207
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,201
Yeah, I appreciate that collaboration of it.

208
00:17:20,841 --> 00:17:28,721
Another person who has a view that Ethereum and Bitcoin are argue or are in some sense

209
00:17:28,721 --> 00:17:34,160
converging on the same target is Lynn Alden, at least in my interpretation of her

210
00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:42,561
statements, where she talked about how Bitcoin's changes over the years have been to

211
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:52,280
increase the block size with to increase scalability and that Ethereum has been trying

212
00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:58,601
to come from the other direction toward like trying to harden with, for example, the fee

213
00:17:58,601 --> 00:18:08,481
burning. So they're trying to approach that monetary that monetary quality of a feature

214
00:18:08,481 --> 00:18:13,040
set and attributes for their protocol, whereas Bitcoin is trying to expand in the

215
00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:18,321
direction of drivechain to expand in the direction of flexibility and extensibility.

216
00:18:18,601 --> 00:18:22,640
So they're they're both these two projects are coming towards the same end goal, but they

217
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:27,481
have different they have different strengths like Ethereum, as you say, has that like that

218
00:18:27,481 --> 00:18:31,721
economy of applications, but it lacks that layer that they want to get at the very end.

219
00:18:31,841 --> 00:18:33,961
Yeah. And, you know, I wouldn't say that.

220
00:18:34,361 --> 00:18:39,121
Let's say that, you know, around 2030, after all the hard forks, Ethereum does come to their

221
00:18:39,121 --> 00:18:41,121
senses and they do decide to ossify.

222
00:18:41,721 --> 00:18:48,321
I think that doesn't necessarily mean that they will be trusted as as money, right, because

223
00:18:48,321 --> 00:18:52,841
they will need to develop a multi-year history of remaining unchanged.

224
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,441
This is something that Bitcoin has developed by now.

225
00:18:56,441 --> 00:19:00,961
So basically, it's not enough to have rules with no rulers.

226
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:06,400
You also need a history of those rules not changing in a backwards and compatible way,

227
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:11,040
which Bitcoin has, although, you know, some might argue that SegWit was an evil force

228
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:15,201
that, you know, smuggled in rule changes despite.

229
00:19:15,201 --> 00:19:17,721
So there was no option not to upgrade to SegWit, for example.

230
00:19:17,721 --> 00:19:20,321
But, you know, these technicalities are lost on the masses anyways.

231
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:27,241
So, you know, Ethereum will not be credible as a reserve asset, but it doesn't need to be a

232
00:19:27,241 --> 00:19:29,760
reserve asset because it has an income stream, right?

233
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:34,081
It has, you know, in the bear market these days, it has five million dollars in fees paid

234
00:19:34,081 --> 00:19:37,920
per day. And, you know, God knows what the fee rate will be in the next bull market.

235
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,201
It might average a hundred million dollars a day.

236
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:47,160
And these fees are paid willingly by willing participants to do things that no other system

237
00:19:47,201 --> 00:19:54,201
in the world allows them to do, like to get zero percent, you know, USD loans on their

238
00:19:54,201 --> 00:19:56,040
ETH collateral using liquidity, right?

239
00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:57,121
For example, no other.

240
00:19:57,481 --> 00:20:02,561
And do it all in a decentralized way where there is no risk of, you know, a bank seizure,

241
00:20:02,561 --> 00:20:07,361
etc. As you know, in the early days of Bitcoin, the joke was only put the money in the bank

242
00:20:07,361 --> 00:20:08,441
that you're willing to lose, right?

243
00:20:08,441 --> 00:20:11,201
So here, Ethereum.

244
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:12,920
I can't quite hear you, Alex.

245
00:20:14,121 --> 00:20:16,841
Could someone in the audience give like a thumbs up if you can hear him?

246
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,201
I could hear. Can you guys hear me?

247
00:20:20,241 --> 00:20:21,640
Yeah. I just figured this out.

248
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,000
Nice to meet you all. Alex, I can't hear you.

249
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:26,400
Can you hear me now? Are you there?

250
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:32,121
Yeah. Henry, are you there?

251
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:35,280
Samuel, welcome to the stage.

252
00:20:36,201 --> 00:20:37,760
Thanks. Would you like to speak?

253
00:20:38,241 --> 00:20:39,241
Yeah, I would.

254
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,280
Well, thanks for your nice comments on the article.

255
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,040
I hope that article is useful.

256
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:47,721
Samuel, can you hear me?

257
00:20:48,441 --> 00:20:50,361
Hello? Can anybody hear me?

258
00:20:51,601 --> 00:20:52,601
CryptAxe can hear me.

259
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,561
Well, I hope that article is useful.

260
00:20:58,601 --> 00:21:00,400
You know, Alex brought up this.

261
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:02,160
Yeah, I can hear you too, Samuel.

262
00:21:02,441 --> 00:21:04,160
I think Henry, the problem is on your end.

263
00:21:05,361 --> 00:21:10,241
Yeah, it might be. Alex brought up this idea about how Ethereum doesn't have some sort

264
00:21:10,241 --> 00:21:13,241
of doesn't have credible, you know, track record of money.

265
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:18,640
And even though I agree that's true, you know, the article is sort of for the masses

266
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:24,561
and the masses may not really understand the nuance that Alex, you brought up.

267
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:26,321
I think that.

268
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,160
But it's not the masses that decide this.

269
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,241
You see, it's the institutions and the governments, right?

270
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:34,000
Like the masses are basically just sheep following their leaders.

271
00:21:34,481 --> 00:21:39,321
It's basically Fidelity deciding that Bitcoin is credible while Ethereum is not

272
00:21:39,321 --> 00:21:43,561
credible. And it's, you know, the government of El Salvador deciding that Bitcoin is

273
00:21:43,561 --> 00:21:45,280
credible and Ethereum is not, right?

274
00:21:46,121 --> 00:21:49,561
Well, sure. That's true to a sense.

275
00:21:49,601 --> 00:21:55,721
But, you know, I think that it's not so clear that this is like it seems to me like it

276
00:21:55,721 --> 00:22:00,800
can go either way at this point or early enough that the masses can also like these

277
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:02,201
institutions can make a mistake.

278
00:22:02,241 --> 00:22:05,040
I think that Fidelity, aren't they doing Ethereum as well?

279
00:22:05,601 --> 00:22:13,040
Well, they might be. But you see, the thing is, I am I am very, you know, adversarially

280
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,880
minded when it comes to Ethereum and in general, right?

281
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:20,241
Like this is from the 90s, sort of my cypherpunk exposure in the 90s.

282
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:25,160
But I'm telling you that Ethereum is actually like Google stock or actually Google is

283
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,441
now gone. So what is Apple stock, right?

284
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,880
So it's basically like a security that has an income stream.

285
00:22:31,361 --> 00:22:35,640
And a lot of people will want to own that the same way as a lot of people want to own

286
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:41,760
Apple shares. Right now, because the income that's being accrued to each shares, you

287
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:47,760
know, through burning and new issuance and, you know, the fees, that income is

288
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,280
essentially floating the value of Ethereum.

289
00:22:51,081 --> 00:22:56,561
And, you know, Ethereum will have this whole, you know, ecosystem of layer twos, right?

290
00:22:56,561 --> 00:22:56,880
If you go.