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Okay, it's two o'clock on Friday in the summer, and there is a USA World Cup game.

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But instead, we're going to just do this, or won't we?

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But yes, here it is.

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It's the space.

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I could make it on Wednesday.

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There's lots of stuff to do.

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And we've got a lot of stuff that we're working on.

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Very excited about a lot of it.

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But I just thought I would open the space, see if anyone has any questions.

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You know, one thing I was thinking about doing was putting out this document about Free Samurai.

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But it's not quite done yet, so I'll get to it later.

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Let's see.

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I think we should wait a little bit for... I just put out the link.

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We'll see if we can get some more people in here.

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And this document about Free Samurai is part of my strategy, because I've been a little

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disappointed with the fact that we haven't freed them yet.

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So I was like, oh, I have some idea.

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Now, of course, the bug bounty is in its second week.

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The first bug bounty went really well, and many bugs were found.

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In fact, mostly the tech team has been fixing these bugs, and we haven't shipped as many

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new things.

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Although one new thing that we are shipping is that we are adding silent payments and

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BIP-47, which I think people will like.

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This is a pretty big deal, because really, we shouldn't have these addresses, you know?

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You should just be able to chat with someone and then just send money directly to their

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screen name.

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And in Bitcoin, we tried to get rid of these addresses back in 2014.

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All this stuff is very, very old.

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But we still haven't succeeded in getting rid of these addresses, and we still have

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them around.

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It's kind of a waste of time.

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I wanted to clarify something about the Solana token.

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Someone told me like, oh, since you're only rewarding the top 15, but something like half

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of that is owned by only 15 accounts.

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Someone mentioned that to me.

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But that doesn't matter.

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You see, if they only own half, then they only get half.

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So they have to buy, the top 15 have to buy from everyone else at the end.

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So they still need as much as they can get.

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So it still has value for people who are not in the top 15.

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But people ask about that every other day.

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And it's a little disappointing because I don't think it's really that complicated.

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So if 50% of the market cap is owned by the top 15, then they only get 50% of the pool.

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So each coin in the Solana coin has value, whether it's in the top 15 or not.

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It's just the top 15 have to do that final step of actually redeeming.

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But it doesn't at all mean that if you're outside, then the coin doesn't have any value.

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So I don't know.

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I thought that was all perfectly clear and logical, but okay.

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Now, anyone want to come up and say anything?

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Let me get Vlad up here as co-host.

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And we only have a few people.

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And of course, it is Friday afternoon in the summer.

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So this space can be a bit more forward thinking in the sense that we spent the last month

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or so talking, basically answering to people's questions.

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But it would be interesting to talk about what's currently being planned and built for

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people who are enthusiastic about BIP300 and the fact that it's coming on eCash.

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And I think we have some very interesting action with the Elements Plus sidechain, which

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is going to have UpCat and CTV and pretty much everything else that the builders need.

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And this is much more than people need to make something even more advanced than the

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stuff that's already on Ethereum.

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And it's not a small deal.

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For the first time ever, there's going to be incentives to build this stuff and people

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can actually prove themselves.

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And I do believe that if Bitcoin remains this deranged, but I'm starting to think that if

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Saylor gets liquidated, which seems like a possible outcome, maybe that Bitcoin will

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recover somehow and culturally rebuild.

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But that can take years.

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My point is that a lot of brain drain can happen to the Elements Plus sidechain and

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to a lot of the stuff that's being built right now.

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That's very interesting.

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I know you've been part of the conversations and it would be very interesting to know what

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you think about it and how you think, for example, it compares to Tunder, which is the

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other sidechain, which is going to have high throughput.

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Yeah, the worst thing to happen to eCash, I think eCash suffered the worst blow ever

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with everyone suddenly realizing that Michael Saylor is an idiot, which is he's always been

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an idiot, but people didn't realize before.

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So now that people know that he is, there is a chance that BTC might be saved, which is

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terrible for eCash, but maybe good for the world.

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It's hard to tell. But as for Elements Plus, it's like Blockstream has this Elements

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thing that they built a long time ago and it has quite a few things.

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It has not only does it have OP_CAT, but it also has like their weird add-ons.

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So it has like special tree signatures and all kinds of like special multi-sig stuff,

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special opcodes have been re-enabled.

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So as you probably know, and as people listening probably know, just with a tiny little opcode,

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some of these people can do an awful lot of wizardry.

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You have like a Robin Linus or Super Testnet or whatever, and sometimes they just need a

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little bit like with Starkware, they just needed OP_CAT, which was just a tiny, tiny

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little thing that was in the original Bitcoin client.

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It's only 13 lines of code and it's whatever, it's tiny, opt-in, ignorable, soft fork,

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reversible soft fork.

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And it is this tiny, tiny, tiny thing.

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But with it, you can do like this Merkle trees, you know, stuff.

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So a lot of the builders tried very hard to, you know, like make stuff work on BTC.

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And I think this will draw, because, you know, how is someone like a Super Testnet, how are

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they going to react when there is, you know, something live with real money, which is this

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Elements plus sidechain.

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So the new L2 sidechain, this would be like number eight, basically, because it will

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actually let them do things.

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And I think, yeah, people will play around with that's what people really like is the

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freedom. It's not about like people always think it's about how are you going to get

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developers? Are you going to hire developers?

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Are you going to, you know, that fundamentally misunderstands what kind of developers you

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would get. If you hire developers, you get the really low quality, bad developers who

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lie to you all the time about what's good or what's not.

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The real developers just they want to make something and they just need a couple little

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tools to build their their cool thing.

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Now, how does it compare to Thunder?

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Yeah, Thunder has a lot of stuff stripped out of it so that it can be as efficient as

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possible and it could just make transfer payments.

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It's interesting that recently there was a recent article from an Ethereum guy there.

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I forget all their names. They'll send the same to me.

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But he was like, why Ethereum sucks.

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And I sold on my ETH or something.

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And that came out this week.

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And it was something like he was saying, well, actually, we built all this stuff like

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friend tech and blah, blah, blah.

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But the only thing people want to do is make payments.

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So that guy was kind of saying the opposite of what the, you know, it's kind of funny.

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We got a lot of people saying the opposite of each other.

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You got like a Bitcoin cash people who are saying, oh, we added we added Schnorr and

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we added we added like all this stuff like data processing stuff so that you can bring

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DeFi over here.

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And then the Ethereum people are like, oh, payments was the only important thing.

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And then so it's like kind of a kaleidoscope.

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But yeah, the point of the sidechain idea is that we'll try all these different things.

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Some of them will find users who pay transaction fees and others will not.

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And that's perfectly healthy.

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And then the ones that don't will just die off.

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So that's exactly what we want.

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And of course, we want to be in a situation where whoever invests in the underlying coin,

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you know, they will be able to you when all the rubble clears, they will be able to use.

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You know, whichever the most useful stuff that ended up surviving.

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So, yeah, I don't know how's that led to get anything out of that answer.

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Well, it's funny because every chain wants what they don't have in the Bitcoin cash world,

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they worked so much to build cash tokens and all of these they added these up codes to

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enable them to be more like Ethereum.

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And then Ethereum comes out saying, well, we wish we did payments better.

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It's almost like everyone's trying to capture another slice of the market that they don't

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have. And yeah, it's interesting because with Drivechains, you can have everything for

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everyone on the same currency.

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You don't really have to go from one coin to the other.

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You only need to swap your coins across chains or wait for, I think it's 13000 blocks for

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you to be able to withdraw and then just join whichever chain you think is more

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interesting for whatever it is that you want to do.

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But there is also a bit of an overlap, right, because some of them have some of the same

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features, except that they have maybe different narratives.

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There's nothing that's going to stop people from making a lot of transactions on the Z

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sidechain, which has privacy and treating it just like Tunder, even if the fees get

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high. Like if they really find value in the privacy that they're getting, I can imagine

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that one having a high throughput also.

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But I remember, I don't remember exactly the context, but you said something

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interesting about the Namecoin sidechain, which I'm not remembering the name if it's

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BitAssets or BitNames, I think it's BitNames.

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And you could do some very cool stuff across multiple platforms and use that basically

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as your. In the same way that Ethereum people are using Metamask, right, so that they can

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connect to all sorts of applications and have access to stuff that's way beyond the

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initial scope or what's really obvious about it, that you're just registering a domain.

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And it also reminds me of the early 2010s, I think, when you could log in, for example,

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you could create an account on Facebook with your Google account and all you had to do

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was press one button that said log in with your Gmail or whatever.

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And you want to turn this BitAssets into something similar, but across multiple

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ecosystems.

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Yeah, for BitNames, I mean, I think BitNames, the idea is you would only own one name and

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the name would just do everything and everything else would be like a subsidiary of

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that. So like it would be like you could you could log into Instagram or to TikTok or to

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whatever with just the name and the name would, you know, you would be able to chat with

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someone over a telegram or over a Wall Instant Messenger or whatever.

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And then they would be able to like send and you'd also be able to send money.

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I think this will actually change the Internet quite a bit.

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Now, we've had some people joined and come up and then and then say connecting and then

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drop down. So I'll just assume it's the excellent coding of this website.

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Or I don't know why, but some people tried to come up and then they didn't.

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But yeah, OK, so BitNames.

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Yeah, because the idea is actually quite a few things go wrong when you have to like

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you have people you have people being impersonated and then you have people having to

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like list, oh, here's all my other identities.

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Here's like my email and here's like my Twitter.

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And then sometimes you can't get someone who's already taken it.

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And so. So let's see.

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OK, we got JK.

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Let's see if you can come up without it crashing.

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It is distracting to work the menu and then the menu has like terrible feedback.

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But so, yeah, BitNames.

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The idea is like you just be talking like this also is like the the the the the the

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the idea is like you just be talking like this also is like then you have to request

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the address from someone.

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You have to say like, oh, OK, can you pay me $20?

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OK, then you send the address and you got to paste it into something else.

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I think instead with BitNames, you'd reunify everything.

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So yeah, BitNames, I wrote a piece, I guess I guess I can post it.

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I don't really remember how to summon the nest, but there's like a nest of tweets.

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But I have a pretty some pretty ambitious plans for BitNames.

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I don't know if they work.

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This is like the third or fourth time that we tried to bring someone up and then.

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It like didn't work, so I don't know how it.

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I don't know.

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You know, it seems to work if you can hear me.

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Oh, nice, it worked.

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OK, great.

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OK, great.

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I hear you, but it's funny you don't show up as a speaker.

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Oh, wait, now you do.

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I don't know.

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Well, welcome.

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You are now muted, though.

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Yeah, I was wondering for the BitNames, so what do you think like a wallet looks like,

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so what do you think like a wallet looks like, which actively has it integrated as part of it?

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Like, is it just for the addresses or how about like selling them or sending them around or claiming them?

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Is there any particular like workflow for that?

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Yeah, it's very important that you bring that up, because actually what I was thinking was we have to productize this to make it so that some normal person who doesn't own any crypto, they could just like pay $20 for the credit card and we'll just set up everything for them.

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We'll give them like the name, the private key or whatever.

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And then and we'll leave them with like $10 worth of stuff so they can play around in.

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And then what they would do ultimately when after they're comfortable with it is they would make their own wallet with like their own randomness.

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Like people are going to laugh, but I'm in favor of this whole deck of cards thing.

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Like you shuffle a deck of cards, you type in 30 cards and you then have a Bitcoin wallet.

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So they make their own thing and then they would buy their name back from themselves, you know, for like $1 or whatever, you know, but you transfer the name kind of like a domain.

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And so then this is how we onboard people quickly and we get them up and running.

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If we just say normal people, we onboard them into this whole experience, you know, because I think actually people are very hungry for a new type of messenger.

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So obviously people have adopted AOL instant messenger, they adopted texting, they adopted Gmail, they adopted all this stuff, they adopted WhatsApp, they adopted Telegram.

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And I think people are now they now realize that, you know.

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The world of spam, the world of impersonation, the world of all the messaging is a little too free.

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The world where they can seize your account or they close your account down.

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Nowadays, everyone has so many people have accounts that everyone kind of knows what it would be like, oh, they locked me out of my account.

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Everyone is kind of, I think, out of all the billion people's billions of people in the world, people are kind of warming up to the idea that they want a property right to their account, which is exactly what the blockchain does.

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So I think there is a solid opening for this.

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I'm not sure about it, but I think it's clearly better than.

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A lot of what we have today, and if you read my post, I talk about how to like how it would like merge with ICANN and sort of eventually replace it while respecting everyone's property rights to like the old ICANN names like Google.com or whatever.

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So if people read that, I have a section about how that would maybe play out, you know, there's so one set of ideas, I suppose, proposed by Urbit, in which you can sort of like sell the namespace underneath your domain. I don't know if there's any way to like integrate that type of functionality into a bitnames.

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Bitnames.

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Well, the bitnames idea is kind of like it maps the human readable name to like this computer readable, unique, like scrambled codes and things and like nested JSON and like whatever.

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So once you're over there, you can kind of you have a lot of flexibility where you can say, okay, when I look you up on bitnames, I'll find out, okay, I can look up like, you know, whatever, lab, whatever on bitnames, but then what comes back could basically be anything because it would be like all these, you know, like how the domain name system has all these like TXT records that are kind of arbitrary.

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And it also has like the A records, which are so like, you could just have all these different record types and you just look it up, and it just anything can be there.

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So you could be something that you sell or it could be.

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But yeah, I don't know about that. I think I think the key problem is that you want, I want to have a right to a name that people can remember.

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Because there's too many. You need something unique. You know what I mean? Like, there's only one Google, like google.com.

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The other thing is, I think the, I'm not sure if people people think of this, but the whole explosion of the TLDs, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level

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domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know, the top level domains, you know

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Mohammed, you know, people have the same name. And it's just confused names are actually kind of tough. You want there to be a brand that you can invest in a brand. And then see also also with BitNames, we have like a phone number system where each name gets like a number like an arbitrary number. So not only do you get a human readable name, but they all automatically come with a number. So it's like, oh, you meet someone in a bar, you get their number. And you get the number is like a super number, because it just lets you

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look up whatever about the person, but everything is gated with, you know, in order to make an intro to the person, you have to pay an introduction, you have to pay a fee to initiate the conversation. And then after that, you can just keep talking to them until they block you. And then you have to pay the fee again. But I think this is a much better, you know, in the modern world, attention is scarce in the in the old world, people were bored all the time. And

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so getting a letter from a friend was like the highlight of your week, because you were just on the farm. And you didn't even have light, you know, he had to read the letter, he had to read the letter by sunlight before the sunset. But, but in the modern day, we're being flooded with information. So we actually want to gate the information. And so charging for the intro is even better charging for like a cold intro is even better. And then you're

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so I guess this is somewhat related, but like if you have like attached to, and I suppose this is how it would be used, if you wanted to use your BitNames on another chain, like sidechain would be just in that a list or whatever you get back from the BitNames DMS service, that it would then have listed there like some public address on one of the sidechains. Is that roughly correct?

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Yeah, it would have like basically a bit 47 address in the case of BTC, like your reusable payment code, or like your pay name, and it would have like the reusable Z address, all that stuff would be in BitNames, right? So it'll just be there. And, and I guess at a minimum level, like if this is like, I don't know, I suppose communication between chains are like, resolving some sort of state between

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them. Is that, I suppose, like a good usage of this thing that you've talked about of like, when contracts attack, is that going further than BitNames? And where does it kind of go wrong?

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Okay, yeah, this is a very important. So like the when contracts attack is when someone else uses the state created by something else in like a, because creating the state takes a lot of work. So if you're if people build something that rely on the state being correct in the future. So that the Oracle idea is that like the Oracle relies on, you know, when you're when you're betting and you're, you know, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you

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when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're,

246
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when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're,

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when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're,

248
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when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're,

249
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when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're,

250
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when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're,

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when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're,

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kind of would like threaten to maybe kill all of them.

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So the minors would might say, okay, listen, two through eight, aren't,

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you're not allowed to be, or, you know, one through only five,

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only number six is allowed to be, because it's kind of like how, like, um,

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if you go to court, one thing that courts provide is just finality, you know,

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where sure you can appeal sometimes, but like you go to small claims court,

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you and your neighbor have been fighting over something, you know, he,

259
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you think he tripped over your whatever lawn

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Flamingo and broke it. And he says, he doesn't know what you're talking about.

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And you think he's lying and you have like some pictures.

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So you think you go to court and it's kind of like they decide, you know,

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and it's like, then you just move on with your life. But then until then,

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it's kind of an open question. Like, what should I do about this?

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I feel I've been wronged. The other person thinks you're just harassing them.

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So the courts provide that kind of finality. It's kind of like, uh, you know,

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like, um, uh, a similar example, this is a famous, this, uh, excuse me,

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a favorite example of Tom Schelling. He has this example about,

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uh, people screwed up in a, you know,

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the bunch of cars at an intersection have achieved gridlock and they they're

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actually all trapped there and they can't get out because they're all surrounded

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by other trapped cars. So now they don't know what to do.

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The police officer shows up. Now, even if the police officer,

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police officers, that's ordering people around, you move back, you go over here,

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they undo the gridlock.

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Now even if you're the last car to leave the gridlock,

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you're still better off as a result of the police officer,

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just overriding everyone starting ordering everyone around because in the gridlock

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you're trapped there. And so not every situation is like this,

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but I think it's, it's a similar example where it's kind of like, okay,

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minor step in and they just say, listen, we're going to kill off all these.

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So these are, you have interference among the chains.

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So there is a one that would apply to bid names that they say, okay,

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we're going to try to like, I see, you know,

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we're going to try to half copy this one or something,

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half copy 99% and then change it. And we're going to,

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we're going to copy everything except google.com.

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And then we're going to put all the money we saved into a marketing budget.

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And then everyone might just be like, okay,

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we're going to just shut all this off because it's annoying.

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Yeah. I, I guess like if, if you have some way to like,

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have a contract resolve that same dispute,

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like before the miners need to, then I guess if it's like specifiable,

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I don't know for the example of like domain names,

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whether or not that is easily calculatable other than through maybe like a

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market on Truthcoin, um, in order to have some contract, like on a, uh,

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another chain rely on that.

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But I guess that kind of runs into the same problem itself of, of that.

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But, uh, I don't know if that explained anything, I guess.

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Well,

301
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one part of my argument was that if once this,

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the system was set up so that it would

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eventually kick off the parasitic chains,

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part of the argument I made was that it, because of that fact,

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maybe no one would ever bother making a parasitic chain or even,

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you know, in the first place, maybe, I don't know. It's funny though.

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I have these long theoretical arguments from like 2015,

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but then a lot of them end up happening like in a theorem and stuff like, uh,

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you know, they, we ended up seeing them play out and they, uh, well,

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there's a quote from John Maynard came through about practical men who think

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they're above theories are the slaves of some defunct economist or something,

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which is, it's a funny quote.

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It's a very Keynesian quote, but, uh, yeah, no,

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I don't know if you could maybe solve it by having some sort of like, uh,

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uh, I suppose, bond that you post, solve, solve the problem,

316
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like which one should win.

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Like, uh, that, well, I think it kind of solves itself. You are right though.

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I think that quote is a classic cause Keynes would write these long run on

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sentences. He was kind of a terrible writer, no offense. I mean,

320
00:31:19,839 --> 00:31:22,520
he was this British style sometimes of these, like,

321
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,679
Oh my God, it's torturous to read.

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00:31:26,679 --> 00:31:30,880
John Maynard Keynes is really hard as I had to back in my

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00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:37,560
scholastic. Um, but yeah, he, uh,

324
00:31:37,599 --> 00:31:42,599
he sure knew how to fill up a paragraph with like one sentence and the quote

325
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,320
is no exception. But, um, I think the idea is this,

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the idea is the miners will, they want to decide,

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they want to maximize their fee revenue.

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So it's kind of like any other business or any other situation.

329
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Like they kind of have an incentive.

330
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They know how much money they're already getting all the time and

331
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,359
they know they have some idea of how much they're going to get.

332
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,400
Like they have some idea of like who the customers are and everyone's paying

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these fees.

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00:32:12,799 --> 00:32:17,239
And so they would kind of have some idea, I would think.

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00:32:17,279 --> 00:32:19,479
You know, it's not like you'd start up two BitNames,

336
00:32:19,479 --> 00:32:22,039
like at around exactly the same time. And it's like a,

337
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,120
it's like a shotgun start and then like a photo finish or not a shotgun start.

338
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But you know what I mean? It's like, uh, uh,

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so then it's like an exact tie for a period of like two or three weeks.

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00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,320
I don't think that's very likely. Right? No, I think like, okay,

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00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:41,080
there's one that people kind of like, and it was kind of here first.

342
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,039
And, um, but I, you know, there could be a lot of drama, you know,

343
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as there often is in the real world, there will be these gray areas,

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but that's what I was bringing up about the closure. It's kind of like, well,

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they'll just decide. And then the one side will just fold and they'll say,

346
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well, listen, and I think that's healthy in order to prevent that.

347
00:33:00,279 --> 00:33:04,679
I don't know if there would be a way of paying minors in order to not allow

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specific other sidechains to be created unless they pay a higher.

349
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,479
You don't need to, because they don't want, cause think about it.

350
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If everyone just shows up and they decide all this bid names thing doesn't work

351
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because there's eight different bid names,

352
00:33:16,719 --> 00:33:21,719
then the transaction fee revenues will be falling automatically.

353
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:27,320
So the minors already have the incentive to proactively or reactively or

354
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,120
whatever, you know, they're just, they already, they,

355
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,440
the minors are already because of merge mining, they get all this money.

356
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,440
So they already want, they already want all the money.

357
00:33:37,839 --> 00:33:39,520
They already want all the money they can get.

358
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That's their goal is grab all the money.

359
00:33:42,799 --> 00:33:47,799
So the last thing they want is when is for there to be like all these people

360
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paying customers and then, you know, something interfering with that.

361
00:33:55,039 --> 00:34:00,039
I see that there wouldn't be any necessary reason I suppose to have multiple

362
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except when I suppose there is like some conflict at some point in the future,

363
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maybe between like people trying to resolve their dispute,

364
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which you know,

365
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:18,239
then I guess the idea that minors can resolve them I think is,

366
00:34:18,679 --> 00:34:21,080
is reasonable assuming that it's, you know,

367
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,640
worth it for their time and you know, to generate it,

368
00:34:23,839 --> 00:34:27,080
which the 301 makes it such that even if it's not,

369
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,719
they still get paid regardless, I guess. But yeah,

370
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,000
I don't necessarily see that there's an issue. I think more so if you,

371
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:39,760
I was thinking of emulating like something in which you intentionally wanted

372
00:34:40,599 --> 00:34:45,279
multiple just so that people had their own like domain that they could control.

373
00:34:45,279 --> 00:34:48,679
I don't know the names within it in a,

374
00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:53,679
in a way that is also resolved by the minors in something other than DNS.

375
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,320
Like that's, I suppose what Urbit was trying to do. And I, I don't know.

376
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,919
And not that it's necessarily like the most important.

377
00:35:00,919 --> 00:35:04,120
Yeah. We shouldn't necessarily follow the Urbit example too,

378
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,599
because it kind of didn't succeed. Although it was very interesting.

379
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,200
So I don't know if that, I don't know if that means that we should.

380
00:35:11,679 --> 00:35:14,799
I know. I don't think it is for something like DNS. I think that's a failure.

381
00:35:14,799 --> 00:35:19,799
I think the only possible time it could be useful is if you have some sort of a

382
00:35:22,599 --> 00:35:27,599
very particular networking stack that you must pay people in order to run like

383
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:28,960
something like Tor,

384
00:35:29,479 --> 00:35:34,479
then I think it's a good system for paying out distributions of two nodes that

385
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,400
way. But, um,

386
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,880
it requires this really clever way of getting Tor to work.

387
00:35:43,919 --> 00:35:48,200
Like because the problem with Tor is that it's communist and everyone's just

388
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,919
doing it for free. And I wrote it all down on a piece of paper somewhere.

389
00:35:52,599 --> 00:35:56,000
And I think I know the piece of paper is, I'm not sure,

390
00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:00,599
but part of it was, uh, okay. You had to solve a couple of different things.

391
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,919
Like one of the idea was, um,

392
00:36:04,679 --> 00:36:09,279
you could pay people, you would pay people to forward your traffic.

393
00:36:09,919 --> 00:36:12,679
But one part of my idea was also that you would, you would,

394
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:17,880
you would test it by you would sending some packets to yourself and you could

395
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,359
audit them. And so in that way,

396
00:36:20,380 --> 00:36:25,380
you could audit the people who are forwarding the packets since it's also a

397
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,359
anonymous, they don't know which packets are real.

398
00:36:29,159 --> 00:36:31,520
And uh, that was like part of the solution.

399
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:34,599
I don't know what happens is the paper.

400
00:36:35,039 --> 00:36:39,120
The first thing I suppose that I imagine is that people don't like paying for

401
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:40,679
traffic, which is obviously like,

402
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:47,200
I think what urbit started from that assessment and like looked at like

403
00:36:47,359 --> 00:36:50,560
Facebook and all these things and then tried to build from there,

404
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:54,359
wherein the solution they decided is you just have like moderators effectively,

405
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:59,799
you know, who, who can cut off like more specifically,

406
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:04,599
this particular route is like a cause of like spam traffic.

407
00:37:04,599 --> 00:37:07,040
I'm just going to like relegate it to that.

408
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,079
And then I don't know that it's yet to be seen if it would be successful. Um,

409
00:37:11,099 --> 00:37:14,719
that type of description of a network and you know,

410
00:37:14,739 --> 00:37:19,739
the spam on it because obviously paying for it is just the easiest way to get

411
00:37:19,839 --> 00:37:23,520
around it. But regardless, I don't know, it's just something I was thinking of.

412
00:37:24,199 --> 00:37:28,319
And I think the whole thing attaching it to Drivechains was just that if you

413
00:37:28,319 --> 00:37:33,319
were able to pay a minor to say only allow X amount of chains that are similar

414
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,160
to this, that would be equivalent to, uh,

415
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,839
the stars or whatever they have an urbit where you,

416
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:46,680
you allocate a certain amount and then they control that. Um,

417
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,760
but I don't know that necessarily it's a bit of a tortured metaphor, but yeah.

418
00:37:54,079 --> 00:37:57,239
Okay. Uh, Curtis is also up,

419
00:37:57,559 --> 00:38:02,559
so I don't know if you want to ask or comment on anything,

420
00:38:03,359 --> 00:38:05,120
but if you do feel free,

421
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:12,239
if not, then don't. Um, the only other idea, I don't know.

422
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:17,040
I think another thought, another part of this, the VPN thing was of like, okay,

423
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,520
everyone's a VPN basically. That's like the tour thing.

424
00:38:19,559 --> 00:38:21,680
It's like everyone's a VPN and you would all collect.

425
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,120
It's like everyone would run it cause you would, everyone would earn money.

426
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,280
It's like you would just leave it on all day. You'd be part of the thing.

427
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,199
And you're, so that was another piece of the puzzle.

428
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,439
But I had all these puzzle pieces worked out somehow.

429
00:38:36,199 --> 00:38:40,800
Would it have actually worked in practice? I don't know because, uh,

430
00:38:40,839 --> 00:38:42,319
but yeah, I think, um,

431
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,079
it's a very neat, like, okay, obviously the way it has to work. Okay.

432
00:38:48,079 --> 00:38:52,760
So the way it must work is cause you need it to be fast.

433
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,120
That's the problem with Tor and ITP and whatever.

434
00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:59,319
So it has to be lightning fast.

435
00:38:59,559 --> 00:39:03,680
So the only way to make that work is to make it cost some money.

436
00:39:05,199 --> 00:39:08,280
And, uh, I had this thing worked out and you'd like pick,

437
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:12,800
you'd purchase like credits from people

438
00:39:13,599 --> 00:39:17,719
and then you would redeem the credits for having your packets forwarded.

439
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:22,000
And then you forgot you could test if they were actually working. Uh,

440
00:39:23,559 --> 00:39:26,520
so I don't remember all the, I got to find it somewhere.

441
00:39:26,599 --> 00:39:29,439
No, I mean, I definitely think a network like that,

442
00:39:31,079 --> 00:39:34,400
a network like that would probably function better in terms of like latency and

443
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,000
speed and actual forwarding of the packets. But a lot of times,

444
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:39,359
so yeah, you'd have to pay to use it,

445
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,520
but you'd be getting paid because you'd be getting paid if you go out,

446
00:39:42,599 --> 00:39:43,439
you know,

447
00:39:43,479 --> 00:39:48,160
back in the day I would, uh, pay for Tor,

448
00:39:48,559 --> 00:39:51,959
uh, you know, back in 2011 and 12, it was so,

449
00:39:52,359 --> 00:39:56,680
so slow and so, oh, it was just, it was, it was,

450
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:01,680
it was incredibly slow. So I can't, I'm sure there'd be a market,

451
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:03,319
uh, for that. I mean,

452
00:40:03,319 --> 00:40:07,680
a lot of people would pay for to get a little bit of speed or, um,

453
00:40:08,079 --> 00:40:13,040
uh, a little continuity or, you know, not dropping so much,

454
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,280
you know, so I don't know what it is today,

455
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,760
but I'm assuming it's still the same as it was in 2011.

456
00:40:19,177 --> 00:40:22,577
Yeah.

457
00:40:22,577 --> 00:40:26,497
And I, I would think that the type of people who there's a couple of people using Tor, right.

458
00:40:26,497 --> 00:40:30,997
There's again, there's like this communist class of like people just kind of tinkering around and having fun.

459
00:40:30,997 --> 00:40:33,297
And then there's like people who really, really need it, you know?

460
00:40:33,297 --> 00:40:35,837
And it's like, Hey, of course they'll pay.

461
00:40:35,837 --> 00:40:37,717
And it wouldn't, you know, it wouldn't really be that much.

462
00:40:37,797 --> 00:40:43,377
It would just be like, you know, your, your home internet already costs like 50 to a hundred dollars a month.

463
00:40:43,957 --> 00:40:48,337
And then this would be like, you'd have to offset it because when you're using it, you would pay.

464
00:40:48,797 --> 00:40:58,837
But then when you're not using it, it would pay you, you would be, you would be out walking your dog and it would be like earning money for you because you're forwarding people's traffic.

465
00:40:58,837 --> 00:41:06,077
So, so I don't know how much it would net the net cost would be, but it would be, you know, it wouldn't be that much, but the problem with Tor is that it doesn't cost.

466
00:41:06,077 --> 00:41:09,816
Uh, anyway, uh, okay.

467
00:41:09,816 --> 00:41:10,037
Yeah.

468
00:41:10,037 --> 00:41:18,217
Any other questions or thoughts or, um, we can continue or Vlad, any other stuff, new stuff coming out?

469
00:41:18,217 --> 00:41:19,417
There's lots of new stuff coming out.

470
00:41:19,456 --> 00:41:24,376
So, but there's so much that we need Vlad to tell us what we should talk about.

471
00:41:25,696 --> 00:41:29,816
I'll be selfish this time and just discuss this idea that I had last night.

472
00:41:29,816 --> 00:41:35,657
I was talking to a friend of mine and he was like, you know, I don't know what you're talking about, but I don't know what you're talking about.

473
00:41:35,657 --> 00:41:39,236
Talking to someone named rocket on telegram.

474
00:41:39,876 --> 00:41:41,956
And he told me at first I was very skeptical.

475
00:41:41,956 --> 00:41:43,437
I was like, Oh, it's so stupid.

476
00:41:43,477 --> 00:41:45,797
It's just gimmicky, but it makes sense.

477
00:41:45,797 --> 00:41:46,077
Right?

478
00:41:46,357 --> 00:41:50,677
Right now, the largest IPO in the history of humankind is space X.

479
00:41:51,357 --> 00:42:04,157
And maybe that since we have the technology to build a sidechain for everything out there, maybe we should make like a Mars sidechain, which serves the purpose of intermediating payments between Mars and the earth.

480
00:42:04,416 --> 00:42:20,217
Of course, it's not very doable with the current block times, because depending on the distance between earth and Mars, sending a message from earth to Mars can take anywhere from, I think, eight to 22 minutes, depending on the distance at that moment.

481
00:42:20,657 --> 00:42:33,337
So receiving a message can take just as much, which means that if you want to build something that's reasonably fast, need at least 30 minutes block times to be able to send and receive a message.

482
00:42:33,837 --> 00:42:35,037
But can be very cool.

483
00:42:35,117 --> 00:42:46,356
And this actually leads into the conversation of why would a Mars colony or whatever, once you use earth money, but I do believe that this can be like the settlement layer.

484
00:42:46,356 --> 00:42:49,397
So Mars can have their own form of cash or whatever.

485
00:42:49,837 --> 00:42:58,557
They can have instant finality on their planet, but on the other hand, they want to do commerce with earth and they want to pay for stuff.

486
00:42:58,576 --> 00:43:06,897
Maybe content, maybe software, maybe something that can be transferred at some point with a future shipping or whatever.

487
00:43:07,497 --> 00:43:15,456
So maybe we can have a sidechain that's called Mars or whatever, and can intermediate these payments between earth and Mars.

488
00:43:15,497 --> 00:43:23,257
But what it requires is longer block times and maybe some features that might be desirable for this sort of settlement.

489
00:43:23,637 --> 00:43:24,677
Of course, it's gimmicky.

490
00:43:24,677 --> 00:43:37,477
It's very ahead of its time, but on the other hand, it's very forward thinking and proves that this is a long-term project and might also get the attention of Elon and also Dunks on Blockstream satellite.

491
00:43:37,477 --> 00:43:38,796
Well, I think it is.

492
00:43:40,236 --> 00:43:40,516
Okay.

493
00:43:40,637 --> 00:43:46,477
If I could also propose another topic, something I was thinking of a while ago was...

494
00:43:46,477 --> 00:43:52,677
Let me first talk about that though, because I think we can just do one at a time.

495
00:43:53,757 --> 00:44:01,477
And it is fun, obviously, and I appreciate the creativity of it, but I think there's a temptation.

496
00:44:01,477 --> 00:44:06,076
This is like when Ethereum was getting started up and they were like, oh yeah, we can have a smart contract for everything.

497
00:44:06,076 --> 00:44:10,477
You can have a smart contract where you can pass a car on the highway.

498
00:44:11,117 --> 00:44:11,796
And I don't know.

499
00:44:11,796 --> 00:44:12,917
I just think so.

500
00:44:12,917 --> 00:44:17,436
For example, you can increase the block time without a sidechain.

501
00:44:17,936 --> 00:44:37,256
You can just say that you'll pay, for example, you broadcast the payment from, think about it like this, they want to buy bottles of water from Earth because there's not enough water on Mars.

502
00:44:37,897 --> 00:44:40,897
So they would make the transaction and then they'd send it to you.

503
00:44:40,897 --> 00:44:42,617
And then it takes 22 minutes to get here.

504
00:44:43,196 --> 00:44:44,956
And then you say, okay, great.

505
00:44:44,956 --> 00:44:49,277
And then it takes a long time, takes a day to get 144 confirmations.

506
00:44:50,196 --> 00:44:52,916
And then next day you broadcast it back.

507
00:44:53,036 --> 00:44:59,677
So it takes one day plus 22 minutes to go all the way back over there.

508
00:44:59,677 --> 00:45:05,597
But then they get a message on Mars that says, oh, it has 144 confirmations.

509
00:45:06,516 --> 00:45:11,756
So they know that it has a lot of confirmation.

510
00:45:11,777 --> 00:45:14,736
So they kind of know it was received by Earth and included in a block.

511
00:45:16,057 --> 00:45:18,016
And that works if they're buying or selling.

512
00:45:18,337 --> 00:45:23,217
So, yeah, even though that is a fun idea, I think it's great that people have all these ideas.

513
00:45:23,217 --> 00:45:36,777
I really do. But I do want to pour a little bit of cold water on, you know, you don't need a Drivechain for slower blocks or even you can just use the Bitcoin 10 minute blocks.

514
00:45:36,796 --> 00:45:42,837
And you can just have more basically wait for more confirmations if you want to manually slow it down.

515
00:45:43,916 --> 00:45:49,397
So I don't want everyone to lose their head and just start proposing like whatever a Drivechain for like.

516
00:45:50,956 --> 00:45:55,916
Like that's what they have, like, you know, this is like what happened in the early Ethereum days.

517
00:45:55,916 --> 00:46:06,657
They were like, oh, yeah, we could have like, you know, smart contracts for for the provenance of art or, you know, they had all these like half-baked ideas.

518
00:46:07,897 --> 00:46:12,136
I think if we attract Elon's attention with that idea, he would not be impressed.

519
00:46:12,296 --> 00:46:14,937
He would just think like, what are these people talking about?

520
00:46:14,937 --> 00:46:25,497
Because it takes you know, it takes like a very long time for the stuff to I mean, you could maybe have something where someone on Earth pays someone on Mars to do something.

521
00:46:25,796 --> 00:46:34,076
Where they say, OK, I'll pay I want you to pay, I'll pay you to pick up that rock over there and and take it with you.

522
00:46:34,076 --> 00:46:36,837
And then we can and then bring it back to me on Earth.

523
00:46:38,997 --> 00:46:47,157
But again, the fact that, you know, it would take it takes so long for the the rock to even come back, I mean, I don't know.

524
00:46:48,277 --> 00:46:52,076
I'm not sure I just want to anyway, I just wanted to say that's a neat idea, but.

525
00:46:53,057 --> 00:46:54,657
Probably not in the cards.

526
00:46:55,736 --> 00:47:02,057
JK was going to say there were just one idea, I suppose, and then there's a second idea for like doing DeFi stuff.

527
00:47:02,337 --> 00:47:20,617
But the main one that I just thought about quite a bit ago and then didn't really do anything with it because of the, I guess, lack of tooling and Bitcoin was that if you could have an auction where you have some rule enforced by a contract

528
00:47:20,677 --> 00:47:39,117
that the highest bid always wins, then you can sort of like have some other person who bids on the result of the auction, kind of creating like a covered option type of thing.

529
00:47:39,117 --> 00:47:54,777
Anyway, I don't know, I guess the idea of just like I assume most scripting languages would just be able to enforce that invariant that you could encode the result of an auction where the highest bidder always wins and then do something like that.

530
00:47:54,777 --> 00:48:12,636
But I guess in general, I'm just asking about like scripting and do you think that the way that the whole crypto economy has revolved around smart contracts is sort of the correct way or do you think it should be more like each chain is specific to just one activity?

531
00:48:12,636 --> 00:48:22,016
Well, I think a bigger problem is that the Ethereum people, I don't think they actually knew a lot about what they wanted to achieve.

532
00:48:22,016 --> 00:48:35,976
Like that's, I brought up that example just a moment ago of like they were like, oh, yeah, in the future, everything will be a smart contract and you have a smart contract that will like, you'll be driving on the highway and your car will be able to make an Ethereum, whatever, and pay the other car.

533
00:48:36,036 --> 00:48:48,217
Now, if you think about it, of course, you could actually have done that with Bitcoin also, you could have said like, or with Venmo or whatever, you know, they just, the cars could just need a way to talk to each other.

534
00:48:48,217 --> 00:48:55,596
And then they could say, hey, listen, I'll tip you $5 if you just get out of the way, or whatever it is, it did none of that really had anything to do with Ethereum.

535
00:48:55,596 --> 00:49:01,036
So I think overall, they were just really, really, really confused and naive in general.

536
00:49:01,637 --> 00:49:08,796
And I don't think it had anything to do with like, because part of the premise of your question is like, oh, did they set it up the right way?

537
00:49:08,796 --> 00:49:11,317
Or should it have been set up like version A or version B?

538
00:49:11,596 --> 00:49:14,317
And it was kind of like, I think they just had no idea what they were doing overall.

539
00:49:14,317 --> 00:49:15,437
And there's just wishful thinking.

540
00:49:15,757 --> 00:49:19,036
The wishful thinking is the most powerful drug.

541
00:49:19,596 --> 00:49:25,036
And unfortunately, the wishful thinking leads people to think, oh, we've got it all figured out over here.

542
00:49:25,276 --> 00:49:27,997
And then people become complacent and overconfident.

543
00:49:27,997 --> 00:49:34,317
And I think that's exactly what we have seen in just about every chain, especially BTC.

544
00:49:35,517 --> 00:49:37,697
But yeah, people think, oh, this is the only thing we need.

545
00:49:37,716 --> 00:49:44,036
And then they lose that hunger in them to, to just keep testing things against reality.

546
00:49:45,036 --> 00:49:55,276
Where Ethereum did well is they, you know, they had a few things like ERC-20 and, you know, basically USDT payments.

547
00:49:56,197 --> 00:49:59,677
So that was like what they kind of had.

548
00:49:59,716 --> 00:50:08,757
So and they were interested in, they were interested in like, how can we get more transaction fees up to an extent?

549
00:50:09,437 --> 00:50:13,317
So that was, so they had some things going for them.

550
00:50:14,197 --> 00:50:28,677
But yeah, I think my guess is that when Ethereum piled everything into one system, that had a lot of disadvantages, which included that the fee rate, like some of the rates on Ethereum would crowd everything else out.

551
00:50:29,916 --> 00:50:39,476
And then it encouraged like copycats, where you'd have like Solana or whatever, Avalanche, all this stuff was just like, it was just copy, it was just the same EVM.

552
00:50:40,197 --> 00:50:44,596
But with more space, so then Ethereum had got into like a tug of war with those.

553
00:50:46,437 --> 00:50:47,317
So yeah, I don't know.

554
00:50:47,317 --> 00:50:56,036
But actually, my honest opinion is that overall, during all the years I saw Ethereum exist, I was never really impressed.

555
00:50:56,036 --> 00:51:01,557
Like usually, if they had a good idea, it was they were like taking it from someone else, and they're not really understanding it.

556
00:51:01,557 --> 00:51:08,396
And they were very young, and I don't think they were great designers or great like product market fit.

557
00:51:08,437 --> 00:51:12,716
People are great, like user experience people, actually.

558
00:51:14,156 --> 00:51:16,716
So that's my arrogant opinion, I guess.

559
00:51:16,716 --> 00:51:19,276
But you know, they didn't, they didn't really have a great problem.

560
00:51:19,836 --> 00:51:20,356
Yeah.

561
00:51:20,677 --> 00:51:37,437
No, I just think that, yeah, you do allow yourself a lot more flexibility when the code you write is only like ran on a node and not on every user's device who wants to validate something.

562
00:51:37,437 --> 00:51:40,236
Validate some aspect of the transaction.

563
00:51:43,197 --> 00:51:49,437
One advantage of having them topical is that you can take more advantage of the state.

564
00:51:49,437 --> 00:51:54,236
So like for BitNames, you could say, oh, hey, we have a giant list now of everyone's name.

565
00:51:54,236 --> 00:52:00,236
And you can prevent double spending of the names, which you can't do if you put it on top.

566
00:52:01,036 --> 00:52:16,476
So like if you made, if you wanted to do that with something like ordinals or counterparty or something, it would be rejected by the ordinals or counterparty node as a double name, but it would still make it into a Bitcoin as a Bitcoin transaction.

567
00:52:16,476 --> 00:52:23,757
So then the state isn't as efficient, because you basically need the second state, because the states contradict.

568
00:52:24,396 --> 00:52:28,077
And so that's an advantage of having the state be topical.

569
00:52:28,396 --> 00:52:31,836
So that was always my suspicion is that the topical ones would win.

570
00:52:31,836 --> 00:52:33,276
They have more efficient state.

571
00:52:33,276 --> 00:52:44,077
And they just have like, you're in the, they kind of have a little network effect of their own where you're on the chain with the other people who care about whatever domains or they care about.

572
00:52:44,077 --> 00:52:45,836
How do they contradict there?

573
00:52:45,836 --> 00:52:48,156
I don't know if you could explain a little bit.

574
00:52:48,156 --> 00:52:51,276
Well, because imagine that you do it two different ways.

575
00:52:51,677 --> 00:53:00,077
One way is you build something where you go to the L2 and the L2 has one place where you can look up the names.

576
00:53:00,077 --> 00:53:08,716
You can look them up like alphabetically, because there's like a UTXO, like a UTREXO, or like a rate, it's like a tree, you know, tree by name.

577
00:53:08,716 --> 00:53:11,757
So you can look them up like alphabetically without having to look up the whole thing.

578
00:53:11,757 --> 00:53:19,036
So if I wanted to look up Curtis, I could go to like C-U-R-T-I-S, and then I can look up the thing.

579
00:53:19,757 --> 00:53:20,796
That's efficient.

580
00:53:21,356 --> 00:53:25,276
Otherwise, I have to download the whole thing, which, you know, that could also be fine.

581
00:53:25,276 --> 00:53:27,437
Now, that's option number one.

582
00:53:27,997 --> 00:53:32,796
But then option number two is you do something that's a little more like counterparty.

583
00:53:32,796 --> 00:53:34,796
And you say, okay, here's what we do.

584
00:53:35,916 --> 00:53:43,836
When you make a Bitcoin transaction, and it has a zero-valued OP_RETURN, this already wastes eight bytes.

585
00:53:43,836 --> 00:53:45,437
But then you have to do the OP_RETURN part.

586
00:53:45,437 --> 00:53:46,716
Then you have to have the payload.

587
00:53:46,716 --> 00:53:49,997
The payload will say, like, this is a counterparty message.

588
00:53:49,997 --> 00:53:52,476
I am registering the name Curtis.

589
00:53:54,476 --> 00:53:57,997
So this is all an OP_RETURN, which is ignored, ignored by BTC.

590
00:53:59,596 --> 00:54:00,957
So that's the second way of doing it.

591
00:54:00,957 --> 00:54:02,796
Now, that way actually has a lot of advantages.

592
00:54:02,796 --> 00:54:06,396
One is you don't need like L2 Drivechain universe.

593
00:54:06,396 --> 00:54:08,557
You could do that today for people who are doing that.

594
00:54:09,197 --> 00:54:13,276
But one disadvantage is now you have the whole second counterparty node.

595
00:54:13,276 --> 00:54:15,677
Now, you were talking about where does the state contradict?

596
00:54:16,476 --> 00:54:20,396
Now, imagine someone then puts more OP_RETURN stuff.

597
00:54:20,396 --> 00:54:24,156
They don't even realize they're putting new OP_RETURN messages in.

598
00:54:24,156 --> 00:54:26,236
They don't even know anything about counterparty.

599
00:54:26,236 --> 00:54:31,437
But it happens to be the case that their messages is also interpreted as, oh, I want to register.

600
00:54:32,156 --> 00:54:34,637
This is a counterparty message, and I want to register Curtis.

601
00:54:36,957 --> 00:54:39,276
It will be accepted by the BTC network.

602
00:54:39,276 --> 00:54:42,396
So when you look up the UTXO set, it will be part of the state.

603
00:54:43,197 --> 00:54:48,156
And when you look up which transactions have been included, it'd be part of the BTC state.

604
00:54:49,197 --> 00:54:54,637
And when you look up the counterparty world, this is hypothetical.

605
00:54:54,637 --> 00:54:57,757
I'm describing something that's kind of similar to counterparty, but not.

606
00:54:57,757 --> 00:54:59,677
But the idea is there's an extra OP_RETURN.

607
00:55:00,317 --> 00:55:05,437
When you look up that, this will be inside the counterparty universe,

608
00:55:05,437 --> 00:55:08,716
but it'll say this was an attempted double spend of the name.

609
00:55:09,596 --> 00:55:10,957
And so it will reject that.

610
00:55:10,957 --> 00:55:11,757
But you don't know.

611
00:55:11,757 --> 00:55:15,836
Now that you, when you can no longer do some kind of like SPV type thing,

612
00:55:16,557 --> 00:55:19,437
because if someone just points to you, oh, I registered Curtis,

613
00:55:20,796 --> 00:55:26,156
it could, you don't know if it's a true one or a fake one without downloading all of everything.

614
00:55:27,437 --> 00:55:34,796
Because inclusion, mere inclusion in the BTC doesn't necessarily mean it was.

615
00:55:34,796 --> 00:55:37,276
So you didn't pump out any counterparty information.

616
00:55:37,276 --> 00:55:39,276
You didn't pump out any contradictions.

617
00:55:40,156 --> 00:55:40,476
Okay.

618
00:55:40,476 --> 00:55:44,716
So that would prevent you from using something like BTC or like

619
00:55:44,716 --> 00:55:50,476
some other chain in order to enforce a rule set on your own system.

620
00:55:51,117 --> 00:55:51,356
Yeah.

621
00:55:51,356 --> 00:55:53,197
We want the rules enforced.

622
00:55:53,916 --> 00:55:58,317
So the question is, because that's the whole reason we have the blockchain in the first place,

623
00:55:59,036 --> 00:56:02,557
because you need a zone where they're all the double spends are forbidden.

624
00:56:02,957 --> 00:56:05,356
So you have a zone where all the double spends are forbidden.

625
00:56:06,077 --> 00:56:09,997
And that's kind of like saying, you know, it's like your refrigerator is a zone where

626
00:56:09,997 --> 00:56:13,437
all of the hot molecules have been kicked out.

627
00:56:14,317 --> 00:56:16,716
That's kind of an oversimplification, obviously.

628
00:56:16,716 --> 00:56:18,396
Because, but you know what I mean?

629
00:56:18,396 --> 00:56:23,916
And it's doing all this work to fight out all the double spends and the invalid transactions.

630
00:56:24,877 --> 00:56:25,437
I suppose.

631
00:56:25,437 --> 00:56:30,236
Can you maybe just, you don't need to, but like, just like that as being described as

632
00:56:30,557 --> 00:56:36,957
that as being described as like state, it seems like maybe it's like some sort of data

633
00:56:36,957 --> 00:56:37,757
or something like that.

634
00:56:37,757 --> 00:56:40,396
Like, I don't know if it, it nevermind.

635
00:56:41,117 --> 00:56:41,437
Yeah.

636
00:56:41,437 --> 00:56:48,716
You know, like imagine the unspent transaction output, the UTXO set, you know, that there's

637
00:56:48,716 --> 00:56:56,957
something that everything in that set has in common, which is that they're all unspent.

638
00:56:56,957 --> 00:56:57,757
They're all outputs.

639
00:56:57,757 --> 00:57:05,437
But actually that's not true for the OP_RETURN that are also like Namecoin, like counterparty

640
00:57:05,437 --> 00:57:06,156
registrar.

641
00:57:07,356 --> 00:57:08,077
That's not true.

642
00:57:08,077 --> 00:57:09,517
You just see a bunch of op returns.

643
00:57:09,517 --> 00:57:15,197
Some of them could contradict each other in some higher system, or maybe they all just

644
00:57:15,197 --> 00:57:17,117
have no meaning or some could be invalid.

645
00:57:17,117 --> 00:57:17,916
You know what I mean?

646
00:57:17,916 --> 00:57:19,677
Because BTC doesn't know any of that.

647
00:57:19,677 --> 00:57:22,156
So one could say, oh, I want to buy the name Curtis from you.

648
00:57:22,877 --> 00:57:26,876
So now we're in an unfortunate situation where either we don't know what anything means.

649
00:57:26,876 --> 00:57:27,916
And so it all means nothing.

650
00:57:28,717 --> 00:57:33,116
Or we're kind of like going down the line to try to figure out, you know, see the whole

651
00:57:33,116 --> 00:57:36,396
blockchain idea is kind of like you want to have a global state.

652
00:57:37,197 --> 00:57:37,357
Yeah.

653
00:57:37,357 --> 00:57:38,317
That's the whole point.

654
00:57:38,317 --> 00:57:38,557
Yeah.

655
00:57:38,557 --> 00:57:42,717
As I understand it, I suppose the state would describe how you want it sorted.

656
00:57:42,717 --> 00:57:47,197
These particular, this particular data in some database, like, oh, which column does

657
00:57:47,197 --> 00:57:47,677
it go into?

658
00:57:47,677 --> 00:57:49,756
Which, you know, whatever, something like that.

659
00:57:50,876 --> 00:57:51,036
Yeah.

660
00:57:51,036 --> 00:57:54,477
If there's a double spend, which one comes first, thus making it real.

661
00:57:55,116 --> 00:57:59,036
And the other one comes second, which is puts in a completely different category of being

662
00:57:59,677 --> 00:58:02,156
not, not having, not having actually happened.

663
00:58:06,717 --> 00:58:09,116
Hi, Paul and Vlad.

664
00:58:09,116 --> 00:58:10,317
Yes, we got Justin here.

665
00:58:10,876 --> 00:58:11,677
Chat with you guys.

666
00:58:11,677 --> 00:58:12,317
Yes, always.

667
00:58:13,437 --> 00:58:13,996
How's it going?

668
00:58:13,996 --> 00:58:14,557
Hello.

669
00:58:14,557 --> 00:58:15,197
Doing well?

670
00:58:15,197 --> 00:58:17,837
It's going pretty well, you know, I think.

671
00:58:18,796 --> 00:58:20,876
Summer in the Northern Hemisphere.

672
00:58:21,437 --> 00:58:24,237
And congratulations on the eCash.

673
00:58:24,237 --> 00:58:25,916
I didn't have a chance to tell you it over.

674
00:58:26,957 --> 00:58:27,437
Thank you.

675
00:58:27,437 --> 00:58:27,837
At least.

676
00:58:27,837 --> 00:58:28,396
Yeah.

677
00:58:28,396 --> 00:58:29,516
Very exciting stuff.

678
00:58:31,197 --> 00:58:34,077
Yeah, there's a, there's a lot to unpack here.

679
00:58:34,077 --> 00:58:36,077
Oh, well, welcome to the dark side.

680
00:58:36,077 --> 00:58:37,597
I'll, I'll start with that.

681
00:58:37,597 --> 00:58:38,317
Yeah, I know.

682
00:58:38,317 --> 00:58:38,557
Yeah.

683
00:58:38,557 --> 00:58:44,957
I'm glad you finally come, come over to the side of the, the, the, the S coiners.

684
00:58:46,796 --> 00:58:47,197
Yeah.

685
00:58:47,197 --> 00:58:51,837
The impatient maybe, or the, the high expect, the people with high standards.

686
00:58:53,437 --> 00:58:53,837
Yes.

687
00:58:53,837 --> 00:58:56,396
And I think a competitive mindset to win.

688
00:58:56,396 --> 00:59:01,197
And actually something that I found, the, the, the thing that jumps out, I was looking at your

689
00:59:01,197 --> 00:59:04,796
post about it, actually, that you have pinned, pinned to your profile.

690
00:59:05,437 --> 00:59:08,477
Something that, that really, the merge mining.

691
00:59:09,197 --> 00:59:13,597
So like the, the different Drivechain or the different L, you're referring to them L2s here,

692
00:59:13,597 --> 00:59:13,916
right?

693
00:59:13,916 --> 00:59:17,116
But they're, yeah, these, these different L2s.

694
00:59:17,116 --> 00:59:18,237
Yeah, that's right.

695
00:59:18,237 --> 00:59:18,796
Yeah.

696
00:59:18,796 --> 00:59:22,876
These, these different L2s, if they merge mine, these different Drivechains, right?

697
00:59:22,876 --> 00:59:27,357
If they merge mine, isn't that closer to sharding?

698
00:59:28,876 --> 00:59:34,396
Like in, in, in a sense, because it's, because then it'll, and if that's enforced by the actual

699
00:59:34,957 --> 00:59:39,677
L1 protocol in that case, and I suppose that, that, that's what I was wondering.

700
00:59:39,677 --> 00:59:41,756
First of all, I thought that was very interesting.

701
00:59:41,756 --> 00:59:44,396
Isn't it closer to what, I didn't hear what you said.

702
00:59:44,396 --> 00:59:46,237
Well, I thought, is my audio okay?

703
00:59:46,237 --> 00:59:48,317
Or, okay.

704
00:59:48,317 --> 00:59:49,756
Oh, I just cut out that one part.

705
00:59:49,756 --> 00:59:50,396
Oh, okay.

706
00:59:50,396 --> 00:59:50,876
All good.

707
00:59:51,756 --> 00:59:53,996
I was wondering if it was closer to sharding.

708
00:59:53,996 --> 00:59:55,116
If they're all merge mining.

709
00:59:55,996 --> 00:59:56,477
Yeah.

710
00:59:56,477 --> 01:00:02,077
Like, is it, if it's, cause if, if the L1 hasn't been changed, then like, how is that enforced?

711
01:00:03,197 --> 01:00:10,957
So, so what I was wondering is like, how closely is it, is the L2 linked to the L1?

712
01:00:10,957 --> 01:00:16,156
Is it, is it enshrined as they would say in Ethereum land or based?

713
01:00:17,604 --> 01:00:28,884
Well, um, so there is a thing for the, for, for BIP301, there are some ways that you,

714
01:00:28,884 --> 01:00:34,323
you know, the L1 block would, would reject someone who's basically, they say that they're

715
01:00:34,323 --> 01:00:39,604
merge mining something, but they're actually not. Um, the original merge mining is not,

716
01:00:39,604 --> 01:00:44,284
you know, like there's nothing that this is a very counterintuitive fact about merge mining,

717
01:00:44,284 --> 01:00:50,203
is that if Bitcoin wanted to stop Namecoin from being merge mined with Bitcoin, there's nothing

718
01:00:50,203 --> 01:00:55,403
that Bitcoin could do about that. And Namecoin could just continue. Well, there's something that

719
01:00:55,403 --> 01:01:01,084
the miners could do about it though, right? Um, the coordination ends up being the problem if

720
01:01:01,084 --> 01:01:08,844
you have too many of them, right? It's true that the mine, but it's kind of, um, the miners are

721
01:01:08,844 --> 01:01:13,484
the ones being paid extra. So it's a kind of, it's a, it's a kind of funny scenario because

722
01:01:13,484 --> 01:01:19,324
usually in Bitcoin, people talk about like things that you could do, like a soft fork,

723
01:01:19,324 --> 01:01:25,803
you could activate and then the miners would have to like conform to this new filtering or

724
01:01:25,803 --> 01:01:30,604
something like that. But this, in this case, there is no thing that, yeah. And in the case of merge

725
01:01:30,604 --> 01:01:37,163
mining as a whole, in this case, the merge Blind Merged Mining is just a kind of a variant of that

726
01:01:37,163 --> 01:01:42,684
is very, very similar. The idea with merge mining of course is that they get more money. So they

727
01:01:42,684 --> 01:01:49,563
don't really care. Right. There's the incentive. Um, I was wondering like, cause, cause in my

728
01:01:49,563 --> 01:01:55,004
view, I think it's better if you tightly enshrine it, like tightly wind it into the L1 and then it

729
01:01:55,004 --> 01:02:00,924
becomes, then it stops being an L2, like an enshrined rollup, right? I don't even consider

730
01:02:00,924 --> 01:02:06,284
that an L2 anymore. That, that becomes like part of the L1, right? But you can't do that if you

731
01:02:06,284 --> 01:02:13,084
can't touch the L1 code, right? Like that, that I don't understand that part of it. Well, yeah,

732
01:02:13,084 --> 01:02:20,123
if you enshrine it, you have the data, the whole point of, I think keeping the block size small

733
01:02:20,123 --> 01:02:26,844
is the data availability problem, which is that for all the data that in the chain, like all the

734
01:02:26,844 --> 01:02:35,723
enshrined data, everyone has to store and, and save and process and validate and then serve it back.

735
01:02:36,363 --> 01:02:43,803
So the whole point of the L2s to some extent, or a big major point is that some people don't want,

736
01:02:44,443 --> 01:02:49,484
people want to do different things. So some people don't want, they wouldn't want the L2 to be

737
01:02:49,484 --> 01:02:55,964
enshrined because then they're responsible for it. Right. But then you have things like admin keys

738
01:02:55,964 --> 01:03:02,204
and then you, or the alternative is you're actually just subdividing a, what is already a small

739
01:03:02,204 --> 01:03:08,124
security budget, right? Instead of just having one unified chain. I mean, this is the modular

740
01:03:08,124 --> 01:03:15,803
versus monolithic debate 10 years later, right? Well, yeah, but I've always been in favor of the

741
01:03:15,803 --> 01:03:22,764
merge mined L2s. So that does recombine it to some extent. So it's modular, but also recombined.

742
01:03:23,883 --> 01:03:30,443
But that's what I mean, this, this reminds me of like an L2 enshrined blockchain, which I'll be

743
01:03:30,443 --> 01:03:35,324
like, well, actually that's just sharding now, which is more monolithic. Like the, the snake is

744
01:03:35,324 --> 01:03:40,523
eating its own tail or as you're correctly. Well, I don't know what, like when sharding came out,

745
01:03:40,523 --> 01:03:45,723
sharding came out, like after I had published about Drivechain and I published Drivechain

746
01:03:45,723 --> 01:03:51,003
in November, 2015, which was after Blockstream had published about sidechains. And so I was

747
01:03:51,003 --> 01:03:58,204
never really sure like exactly what they were getting at with the sharding. It seemed as though

748
01:03:58,204 --> 01:04:03,243
that if you wanted to do sharding the right way, then you would have to just do Drivechain,

749
01:04:03,243 --> 01:04:09,564
basically, because there was no other sidechain idea around. So to me that Drivechain idea works

750
01:04:09,564 --> 01:04:16,283
just fine. And then there's maybe a long list of vocab words that have like altered it slightly.

751
01:04:17,404 --> 01:04:23,643
Not changing it anyway, like there's so many limitations now because of the L1, like you

752
01:04:23,643 --> 01:04:30,443
could change it to a one minute block time and a 32 megabyte block size. I mean,

753
01:04:30,443 --> 01:04:34,764
the chain would be so much more capable for it. And it helped the L2s too.

754
01:04:38,204 --> 01:04:43,003
Well, I disagree with that. I think you really want to keep the L1 as similar to Bitcoin Core

755
01:04:43,003 --> 01:04:49,723
as possible so that there's no comparison whatsoever between the two. And I don't think

756
01:04:49,723 --> 01:04:58,924
it really limits it. If they're different, then it's two people arguing. One says,

757
01:04:58,924 --> 01:05:03,163
oh, well, it's got this. And then one says, well, is that better or worse? And if they're

758
01:05:03,163 --> 01:05:08,524
lay people, then they don't know. That's the thing about every change. Some of them are good,

759
01:05:08,524 --> 01:05:12,524
some of them are bad. And it's hard to know in advance which is which. And then it's very hard

760
01:05:12,524 --> 01:05:18,123
to keep explaining it. It's faster, cheaper with more capacity. Long runs means more fees,

761
01:05:18,123 --> 01:05:24,524
which means more security, which means more decentralization, depending on your economic

762
01:05:24,524 --> 01:05:32,524
design. I don't think the fast block times are better, personally. You don't? Yeah, I wouldn't

763
01:05:32,524 --> 01:05:44,764
say so either. Really? There's certain use cases, such as a lot of things in DeFi. So like DEX

764
01:05:44,843 --> 01:05:50,843
exchanges and PERP exchanges. And that's where like the majority of fees are coming from now.

765
01:05:50,843 --> 01:05:55,244
Well, I suppose for like the DEXs, like in terms of speed, I don't think that there's

766
01:05:55,244 --> 01:05:59,723
anything that will ever be faster than like a centralized exchange order book or something

767
01:05:59,723 --> 01:06:05,804
like that. So I don't think you're necessarily competing and having like a comparative advantage

768
01:06:05,804 --> 01:06:13,563
there. We're touching it. We're getting very close now. And there's ways to actually

769
01:06:14,123 --> 01:06:20,123
have advantages over those markets as well, which is how we have billions of dollars of revenue

770
01:06:20,123 --> 01:06:26,843
every year from these DEXs. And I feel like if you don't have speed,

771
01:06:29,883 --> 01:06:33,644
those use cases don't become as attractive there.

772
01:06:33,723 --> 01:06:43,163
I personally think that the fast block time is a kind of clumsy way of getting speed.

773
01:06:43,883 --> 01:06:50,123
There are lots of other ways that I think are much better. For example, you could have a

774
01:06:50,123 --> 01:06:56,044
situation where people basically stake. They stake and then they have to wait for like

775
01:06:57,324 --> 01:07:02,123
an hour or so for it to be like fully confirmed. But then once it's all staked,

776
01:07:02,123 --> 01:07:06,924
then they can just instantly update. I think that's way better.

777
01:07:08,364 --> 01:07:11,084
That's better than a sub-second confirmation time?

778
01:07:12,524 --> 01:07:18,283
No, it'll be sub-second after it's set up. But then you still have the benefits of the

779
01:07:18,843 --> 01:07:22,524
10-minute block time. What's the benefit of a 10-minute block time?

780
01:07:23,084 --> 01:07:32,764
Well, one is SPV is only four megabytes per year. Whereas with the much faster block time,

781
01:07:32,764 --> 01:07:39,804
it becomes proportionally less efficient. So if you're going to hang all of your hopes on SPV,

782
01:07:41,244 --> 01:07:43,804
then certainly you want the block time to be as slow as possible.

783
01:07:44,924 --> 01:07:51,244
Okay. That's interesting. I haven't thought about that before. As in like SPV wallets, I assume.

784
01:07:51,244 --> 01:07:58,123
Yeah, because SPV wallets need all the headers. So the headers are 80 bytes in BTC.

785
01:07:58,683 --> 01:08:07,003
So it's 80 bytes and there's only 144 blocks a day or 1,000 blocks a week, 52,000 blocks a year.

786
01:08:08,764 --> 01:08:13,084
So that's very, very manageable for like 10, 15 years of block history.

787
01:08:13,084 --> 01:08:19,883
Wait, hold on. Four megabytes a year, did you say? I mean, it's not much, right?

788
01:08:20,843 --> 01:08:26,683
Right. That's not much with 10-minute blocks. But if you scale it up to sub-second block times,

789
01:08:26,683 --> 01:08:30,204
then you just scaled it up by like a factor of 600.

790
01:08:31,084 --> 01:08:34,604
Is it not based on the number of transactions? It's based on the number of... Oh,

791
01:08:34,604 --> 01:08:37,563
of course the block header is based on number of blocks. Okay, sure.

792
01:08:39,563 --> 01:08:41,163
But there's a little bit more to it than that.

793
01:08:41,163 --> 01:08:45,084
Like in the case of Bitcoin, that's why I said one minute, not sub-second, because the

794
01:08:45,084 --> 01:08:49,884
architecture doesn't really allow for that. But I mean, there are other chains that have like

795
01:08:49,884 --> 01:08:55,323
minute, two and a half minute block times. There isn't really any problems there. The amounts that

796
01:08:55,323 --> 01:09:03,163
you're describing don't really seem that crazy for most modern phones and et cetera. And also

797
01:09:03,723 --> 01:09:09,323
eventually you just prune it as well. An SPV wallet doesn't need to go through the entire history

798
01:09:10,604 --> 01:09:13,403
itself. I think it would for the headers,

799
01:09:13,403 --> 01:09:17,484
yes. Pruning is for the block contents, but everyone needs the headers.

800
01:09:19,163 --> 01:09:22,044
But of the entire history?

801
01:09:23,484 --> 01:09:28,843
Yeah, but the headers include zero transactions already. So the headers are just the starting

802
01:09:28,843 --> 01:09:34,283
point. I suppose you could say something like, I only want the headers for the last year.

803
01:09:34,283 --> 01:09:35,643
Exactly, that's what I mean.

804
01:09:37,403 --> 01:09:40,684
How do you know that they are? Because think about it, when you download the software,

805
01:09:40,684 --> 01:09:46,044
the software has basically the Genesis block with it. And then it says, this is how we go

806
01:09:46,044 --> 01:09:50,684
into the future. So you could have like checkpointing and stuff. But I think there's a

807
01:09:50,684 --> 01:09:57,004
bigger answer to the question of why not change Bitcoin Core, which is that overall, I would

808
01:09:57,004 --> 01:10:02,684
prefer this project to be very agnostic on people's beliefs. So I would rather say, some

809
01:10:02,684 --> 01:10:07,804
people say this X is better than Y. And I just as I can say, we have X and we also have Y.

810
01:10:08,604 --> 01:10:14,444
So we can't have X if we change it from Bitcoin Core, because then it won't be Bitcoin Core

811
01:10:14,444 --> 01:10:22,444
anymore. So the L1 has to be totally ironclad and rigid in its commitment to copying Bitcoin

812
01:10:22,444 --> 01:10:26,523
Core, so that no one can ever say, well, hey, it's like Bitcoin Core, but it has this

813
01:10:26,523 --> 01:10:28,203
change, which is a disadvantage.

814
01:10:28,203 --> 01:10:32,684
Okay, why does it have to be like Bitcoin Core? Because Bitcoin Core,

815
01:10:32,763 --> 01:10:37,083
from my perspective, is terrible. To be the opposite of Bitcoin Core, Paul,

816
01:10:37,083 --> 01:10:40,283
isn't that the lesson of all of this history?

817
01:10:40,283 --> 01:10:44,924
Because when I protect people's right to Bitcoin Core, that's the same as my protecting their

818
01:10:44,924 --> 01:10:52,763
right to a large block size L2. I'm protecting people's right to form their own opinion.

819
01:10:53,723 --> 01:10:58,364
I'm not debating your right to do what you want and the people that want to follow you

820
01:10:58,364 --> 01:11:02,283
and doing what you want and to create this fork. They're going to be the last one. I'm

821
01:11:02,283 --> 01:11:07,083
going to be the one that's going to defend your right on this one, Paul. 100%. I've been

822
01:11:07,083 --> 01:11:09,163
there before a few times now.

823
01:11:11,004 --> 01:11:14,604
Yeah, but you assert that the smaller block size is objectively better.

824
01:11:15,804 --> 01:11:17,163
A smaller block time.

825
01:11:17,163 --> 01:11:23,163
I say, oh yeah, right, exactly. A shorter interblock time. That's what I meant to say.

826
01:11:23,163 --> 01:11:23,564
Yeah.

827
01:11:23,564 --> 01:11:29,163
You assert that it's objectively better. And I say that this is like a menu and people

828
01:11:29,163 --> 01:11:34,283
can order a la carte. If they want to order the escargot, then they can. If they want to

829
01:11:34,283 --> 01:11:39,163
order vanilla ice cream, then they can order that too. I'm not going to turn the vanilla ice cream

830
01:11:39,723 --> 01:11:41,643
to snails or something.

831
01:11:41,643 --> 01:11:45,804
No, I also love the free market like you, but I think it's more about what you're

832
01:11:45,804 --> 01:11:50,523
choosing to support and what you think is good. And it's also a funny thing if we're comparing

833
01:11:50,604 --> 01:11:57,884
smaller, faster block times, and we're comparing that to the wanting to be like Core for a,

834
01:11:59,643 --> 01:12:03,564
what do I describe that as? An ideological reason?

835
01:12:05,963 --> 01:12:09,564
Well, I think it's a product that people have bought. I mean, Bitcoin Core is still number one

836
01:12:10,203 --> 01:12:16,763
and it's more than four times bigger than Ethereum, the number two coin. So this is by

837
01:12:16,763 --> 01:12:22,364
far and above, it's not like a weird, obscure, it's not like we're catering to some weird tastes.

838
01:12:24,124 --> 01:12:26,604
This is the mainstream thing that most people want.

839
01:12:27,484 --> 01:12:30,924
Well, but it's not where most of the usage is, right? It's not where most of the

840
01:12:30,924 --> 01:12:37,643
value and revenue is in crypto. That's long since moved on, right?

841
01:12:37,643 --> 01:12:41,564
Well, I think all the revenue is really small in my opinion. So there's more,

842
01:12:42,523 --> 01:12:48,924
there's something like hundreds, in the hundreds of billions of dollars, so almost a trillion

843
01:12:48,924 --> 01:12:57,643
dollars in transaction fee revenue across every payment mechanism. It's kind of hard

844
01:12:57,643 --> 01:13:01,884
because some of them, it's really, really hard to add them up and standardize them

845
01:13:01,884 --> 01:13:05,244
because they don't make any sense. Because WeChat Pay is inherently subsidized by

846
01:13:06,203 --> 01:13:12,124
the Chinese Communist Party, like being able to know everything about you. So it's like a

847
01:13:12,124 --> 01:13:16,444
sort of half free and then blah, blah, blah. But as long as the CCP remains there.

848
01:13:19,244 --> 01:13:24,203
Unfortunately. Yeah. Well, I mean, you can be cheaper than WeChat Pay is free, but you pay,

849
01:13:24,203 --> 01:13:29,083
you don't pay with money, you pay with your autonomy. So actually it is expensive.

850
01:13:29,083 --> 01:13:32,203
In a way that when it would be more than 10 cents, yeah, you pay with your soul.

851
01:13:32,283 --> 01:13:36,763
It's like that, the Rick and Morty episode, you don't pay with money. Oh, you pay with the curses.

852
01:13:38,044 --> 01:13:43,004
But the point is that it's basically a trillion dollars per year,

853
01:13:43,723 --> 01:13:49,564
if you do back of the envelope math. And so even Ethereum, which is like the leader,

854
01:13:50,364 --> 01:13:53,323
this is like a millionth of a millionth of like a billionth of a percent.

855
01:13:55,723 --> 01:13:59,403
Solana and Hyperliquid right now are really generating a lot.

856
01:13:59,643 --> 01:14:04,044
Yeah. But yeah, you know what I mean is that, you know, we're not,

857
01:14:05,323 --> 01:14:11,403
this is all early days for everything. So I think it's true that what happened was BTC

858
01:14:12,924 --> 01:14:18,444
formed a weird irrational cult where they started hating on all users and then Ethereum found some

859
01:14:18,444 --> 01:14:26,283
other users. And that's good. And we should also... And then Ethereum started to hate on users and

860
01:14:26,283 --> 01:14:31,643
then they went to Solana and Hyperliquid. Precisely. Yes, I completely agree. That's

861
01:14:31,643 --> 01:14:36,523
exactly what I think happened. Well, they didn't, they didn't, they recognized that there is,

862
01:14:37,643 --> 01:14:41,963
the data availability problem is real. So they realized that it's a problem.

863
01:14:41,963 --> 01:14:47,403
The more users comes with more costs. So they realized that actually we could kill off the whole

864
01:14:48,684 --> 01:14:54,604
project if we let the users run rampant. So there's some logic to it. But the smart thing to

865
01:14:54,604 --> 01:15:00,763
do was to partition all these into optional L2s so that they're all run like businesses or like

866
01:15:00,763 --> 01:15:04,364
hedge funds where like they could fail and they would only affect the people. The failure would

867
01:15:04,364 --> 01:15:08,843
only affect the people on them. So then you say, you know, the sky's the limit and you can make

868
01:15:08,843 --> 01:15:13,244
your Solana chain or you can make your weird chain and your chain can have 10 second blocks,

869
01:15:13,244 --> 01:15:17,884
or it can have 5,000 blocks every millionth of a second, or you can do whatever else you want to

870
01:15:18,604 --> 01:15:23,083
do. From my perspective, we just watched that fail on Ethereum, right? I mean,

871
01:15:23,083 --> 01:15:28,124
Vitalik even admitted it recently. It was like, yeah, this is a failure. It's been terrible.

872
01:15:32,124 --> 01:15:37,564
That was a little vague. What specifically? The L2 scaling roadmap has been a failure. Now

873
01:15:37,564 --> 01:15:42,124
they've pivoted over to the EVM roadmap, which in my opinion is terrible. Yeah.

874
01:15:43,083 --> 01:15:48,684
But I don't know that anymore. I used to know. I used to know a lot more about

875
01:15:50,044 --> 01:15:56,684
Ethereum's L2 picture like in 2016. And then I stopped paying attention. But this is kind of,

876
01:15:56,684 --> 01:16:00,684
sometimes I find this has happened to me in my life a few times where I like write something down

877
01:16:01,323 --> 01:16:04,843
and then people implement a terrible version of it. But they make all these changes,

878
01:16:05,403 --> 01:16:10,763
but it still has the same name. And then they're like, then people come back to me and they say,

879
01:16:10,763 --> 01:16:14,924
well, hey, how do you know this is going to work? And I was like, well, they didn't do what I wrote

880
01:16:14,924 --> 01:16:18,763
down in the first place. This has happened to me multiple times in my life, actually.

881
01:16:21,484 --> 01:16:25,403
I don't know what Ethereum did with the L2s, but hey, were they all set up so that one,

882
01:16:25,403 --> 01:16:32,523
were they all merge mined so that the L1 Ethereum miners got paid all of the money,

883
01:16:32,523 --> 01:16:36,843
all the transaction fees collected on, somehow I doubt it. I don't know if that's true or not.

884
01:16:36,843 --> 01:16:43,163
Maybe you can tell me that it was. Which is why this is interesting, because they kind of said

885
01:16:43,163 --> 01:16:47,163
the free market. You mean that I was correct that they did not do it? Yeah, that's right.

886
01:16:47,163 --> 01:16:52,444
Can I just clarify? Yeah, right. So they didn't do it. They didn't do what I said.

887
01:16:52,444 --> 01:16:57,163
And then they had to chaos as a result. Exactly. And they've been talking about doing it for like

888
01:16:57,163 --> 01:17:01,723
the last 10 years and they think maybe they'll do it in five years from now or whatever, but like

889
01:17:01,804 --> 01:17:05,484
it's yeah. So like this is what I think we should do the whole time.

890
01:17:06,523 --> 01:17:10,203
Yeah, merge mining is a form. Satoshi invented merge mining. I had Blind Merged Mining,

891
01:17:10,203 --> 01:17:15,403
and the advantage of Blind Merged Mining is that it preemptively addressed what later in Ethereum

892
01:17:16,203 --> 01:17:23,323
was called MEV. I preemptively addressed all this in like 2016, 2015. I was like,

893
01:17:23,323 --> 01:17:28,764
you want to make it so that when they mine the block, they're compensated for all forms,

894
01:17:28,764 --> 01:17:32,764
and then the L1 miners don't have to see or know about anything happening on the L2.

895
01:17:33,404 --> 01:17:38,604
And so I've kind of like separated all these concerns, like, you know, preemptively. And so

896
01:17:38,604 --> 01:17:43,323
yeah, my claim is that Blind Merged Mining preemptively, which was invented in 20, like,

897
01:17:43,323 --> 01:17:48,364
January 2017. This is and this is what people have said. Also, they said, actually, this is

898
01:17:48,364 --> 01:17:53,244
they have something that they call proposer builder separation. But if you look at it,

899
01:17:53,244 --> 01:17:57,723
it's basically just Blind Merged Mining. So and that's exactly what Blind Merged Mining is. It's

900
01:17:57,723 --> 01:18:03,563
the whole point of it being blind is that the L1 miner is just grinding the SHA-256 hash,

901
01:18:03,563 --> 01:18:09,644
and they are not looking at what they would call is the proposer, the proposer builder. So that's

902
01:18:09,644 --> 01:18:14,524
what I called the, well, I had different words for it, but I actually came up with it all first.

903
01:18:14,524 --> 01:18:17,323
And again, I came up with this whole Drivechain thing before sharding.

904
01:18:17,963 --> 01:18:23,083
Well, the interesting thing about PBS proposer builder separation is as far as we've observed,

905
01:18:23,083 --> 01:18:29,083
it seems to like, at scale, when there's a lot of usage, it seems to just occur organically,

906
01:18:29,083 --> 01:18:34,043
the separation, and then it becomes better for the protocol itself to enshrine it,

907
01:18:34,043 --> 01:18:40,923
to avoid things like MEV, which which can be, you know, exploitative in some circumstances. And

908
01:18:41,803 --> 01:18:45,083
there's another word for that. Not let's just say not overall beneficial.

909
01:18:45,963 --> 01:18:50,364
But you're talking about like the role, things like that, that would be using that, correct?

910
01:18:51,004 --> 01:18:52,683
Sorry, can you just repeat the question?

911
01:18:52,683 --> 01:18:55,723
You're talking about like roll ups and things like that, when you're talking about L2s,

912
01:18:55,723 --> 01:18:58,364
that would be using it, correct? Yes.

913
01:18:59,083 --> 01:19:06,284
Because I think that there might be some aspects of that design, which caused like problems itself.

914
01:19:07,004 --> 01:19:11,803
No, no, like L2s are generally terrible, but actually the Ethereum itself and Solana

915
01:19:11,803 --> 01:19:16,443
have also seen this happen actually at a massive scale, which is was very interesting to observe.

916
01:19:17,244 --> 01:19:21,323
But actually, L2s are the worst, because they usually have a single sequencer.

917
01:19:21,323 --> 01:19:24,683
And then yeah, the sequencer just gets to the side, right?

918
01:19:25,563 --> 01:19:26,764
So yeah, good.

919
01:19:26,764 --> 01:19:30,923
I suppose, yeah, this is another thing where it's like, okay, then Blockstream came up with

920
01:19:30,923 --> 01:19:36,043
Liquid or whatever, where it was just like, all the fees, Liquid, like all the fee revenue goes

921
01:19:36,043 --> 01:19:42,364
to Blockstream. And it's just like 15 keys, this multi-sig thing. So then I was kind of like,

922
01:19:42,364 --> 01:19:46,364
none of this has anything to do with the original sidechain idea at all, which is that it's this

923
01:19:46,364 --> 01:19:50,843
own blockchain. It's kind of like saying, yeah, we took the blockchain part and we deleted all

924
01:19:50,843 --> 01:19:58,284
the blockchain parts. We deleted all the proof of work. We deleted all the, anyone can join and

925
01:19:58,284 --> 01:20:01,803
leave the mining network anytime. We deleted all the full nodes where everyone's an equal

926
01:20:02,443 --> 01:20:06,043
participant in the European network with fees and everything.

927
01:20:06,043 --> 01:20:08,043
The fees go back to the L1 in this case?

928
01:20:08,043 --> 01:20:11,323
I'm talking in Liquid, they didn't do this at all. Liquid is not merge mine,

929
01:20:11,323 --> 01:20:16,124
because actually it's hard-coded in Liquid for, I'm talking about for Blockstream's Liquid.

930
01:20:16,124 --> 01:20:19,244
They hard-coded it so that they...

931
01:20:18,973 --> 01:20:24,973
I was wondering for these Drivechains, like the fees would still go to whoever creates the Drivechain, no?

932
01:20:24,973 --> 01:20:26,973
Except for the incentive...

933
01:20:26,973 --> 01:20:29,973
No, no, no, they go down to the L1.

934
01:20:29,973 --> 01:20:30,973
All of it?

935
01:20:30,973 --> 01:20:33,973
No, they go down to the L1 miners, yeah, 100%.

936
01:20:33,973 --> 01:20:34,973
But then how is...

937
01:20:34,973 --> 01:20:37,973
There is a tiny wiggle room. This is fully misunderstood.

938
01:20:37,973 --> 01:20:39,973
But how is it informed?

939
01:20:39,973 --> 01:20:46,973
Well, unfortunately, this is like misunderstood because there's like a tiny wiggle room parameter

940
01:20:46,973 --> 01:20:52,973
and all kinds of people have misunderstood this for so long and it's really not that complicated.

941
01:20:52,973 --> 01:20:56,973
But the wiggle room parameters basically accounts for what you might call negative MEV

942
01:20:56,973 --> 01:20:59,973
because I just have the whole thing rolled up into one transaction.

943
01:20:59,973 --> 01:21:01,973
So I say basically...

944
01:21:01,973 --> 01:21:06,973
Okay, but the way Blind Merged Mining works, maybe you'll understand it,

945
01:21:06,973 --> 01:21:11,973
is that there's like a slot on L1 in each block.

946
01:21:11,973 --> 01:21:15,973
So like sidechain number three, you put like a hash there.

947
01:21:15,973 --> 01:21:18,973
So like every block, there's like a special spot.

948
01:21:18,973 --> 01:21:20,973
There's like a special real estate.

949
01:21:20,973 --> 01:21:28,973
And so whatever hash you put there, that counts as being the L2 block that meets their version of the difficulty requirement.

950
01:21:28,973 --> 01:21:30,973
It could be invalid.

951
01:21:30,973 --> 01:21:33,973
It could be invalid on L2, but L1 doesn't care.

952
01:21:33,973 --> 01:21:43,973
And then the idea is people on L2, they build the block paying themselves the transaction fee in the L2 coinbase.

953
01:21:43,973 --> 01:21:50,973
But without the missing puzzle piece in L1, their block will never be valid.

954
01:21:50,973 --> 01:21:55,973
So they also go on to L1 and they pay with L1 coins.

955
01:21:55,973 --> 01:21:57,973
They pay them to make a special transaction.

956
01:21:57,973 --> 01:21:59,973
This is BIP301.

957
01:21:59,973 --> 01:22:10,973
They make a special transaction to the miner and they say, listen, I'll give you $5,000 worth of coins on L1 right now if you add this cash to the coinbase.

958
01:22:10,973 --> 01:22:12,973
Okay, I got it.

959
01:22:12,973 --> 01:22:17,973
And that includes all the transaction fee value on the L2.

960
01:22:17,973 --> 01:22:21,973
And it also includes any MEV benefit on the L2.

961
01:22:22,973 --> 01:22:27,973
I thought before you said it went back to the operator.

962
01:22:27,973 --> 01:22:30,973
Who's the operator?

963
01:22:30,973 --> 01:22:33,973
Sorry, I forgot the exact term you used.

964
01:22:33,973 --> 01:22:40,973
There's a bunch of L2 nodes that are all equal and they each have different wallets.

965
01:22:40,973 --> 01:22:45,973
So four or five of them would be out of 100 or maybe whatever.

966
01:22:45,973 --> 01:22:50,973
They would each construct because everyone has the block, everyone has the mempool.

967
01:22:50,973 --> 01:22:53,973
So they would each throw their hat in the ring.

968
01:22:53,973 --> 01:22:58,973
They would make a block paying themselves the fees in the L2 coinbase.

969
01:22:58,973 --> 01:23:02,973
But they would also get any MEV benefit.

970
01:23:02,973 --> 01:23:04,973
Now, they would be bidding it up in L1.

971
01:23:04,973 --> 01:23:05,973
These would be like bids.

972
01:23:05,973 --> 01:23:09,973
So they say, I'll pay $5,005, I'll pay $5,006.

973
01:23:09,973 --> 01:23:11,973
And only one of them makes it in.

974
01:23:11,973 --> 01:23:13,973
Only one of them can be included on L1.

975
01:23:13,973 --> 01:23:15,973
This is what VEV301 does.

976
01:23:15,973 --> 01:23:23,973
Okay, but it sounds to me like you're describing like a separate bidding, kind of a fee market system, right?

977
01:23:23,973 --> 01:23:25,973
In order to get in.

978
01:23:25,973 --> 01:23:26,973
In a way, yeah.

979
01:23:26,973 --> 01:23:27,973
Because they're in a different –

980
01:23:27,973 --> 01:23:28,973
For the merge.

981
01:23:28,973 --> 01:23:29,973
Sorry.

982
01:23:29,973 --> 01:23:30,973
It rolls up.

983
01:23:30,973 --> 01:23:32,973
It's kind of – to reuse the roll-up word.

984
01:23:32,973 --> 01:23:41,973
It says all the L2 – each L2 transaction that comes in, that kind of increments the bid over in L1.

985
01:23:41,973 --> 01:23:53,973
I mean it should in theory because – but now, of course, I included a thing where they could have like a little tip of money for themselves to compensate them for their trouble because if they get exactly zero, they –

986
01:23:53,973 --> 01:24:00,973
But is that an argument from economic incentives or is it enforced within the protocol?

987
01:24:00,973 --> 01:24:04,973
It's an argument from economic incentives because it's basically like this.

988
01:24:04,973 --> 01:24:09,973
The L2 block is worth a certain amount to the people running the nodes.

989
01:24:09,973 --> 01:24:18,973
Like they say, hey, if I find this block – see, here's the thing is because it's actually – economic incentives are way, way better than having it be enforced in some kind of math equation.

990
01:24:18,973 --> 01:24:31,973
But it's based – we're going to have to now challenge the assumption because it's all based on the assumption then that – all based on the assumption that – sorry, I lost my train of thought right there.

991
01:24:31,973 --> 01:24:32,973
Sorry.

992
01:24:32,973 --> 01:24:35,973
Just go ahead.

993
01:24:35,973 --> 01:24:36,973
Okay.

994
01:24:36,973 --> 01:24:47,973
I will just continue with my train of thought, which luckily I can still remember, which is that the block – okay, the L2 block could be worth like $5,000 worth of transaction fees.

995
01:24:47,973 --> 01:24:52,973
But it also may be worth a certain amount of MEV, like $300 worth of MEV.

996
01:24:52,973 --> 01:25:01,973
But running the L2 node might be very expensive, so that might be – might want to subtract a little bit because it would say, hey, I hate that I have to keep running this L2 node every day.

997
01:25:02,973 --> 01:25:07,973
So you may want to subtract a little, and then you might say, well, hey, listen, this block might be orphaned, or there might be a block maturity period.

998
01:25:07,973 --> 01:25:16,973
So honestly, there's like a lot of factors that go into it, and they might – after they combine all these factors subjectively in their mind, they might say, you know what?

999
01:25:16,973 --> 01:25:21,973
Okay, I'm only willing to bid $4,900 for this block on L1.

1000
01:25:21,973 --> 01:25:34,973
And so in a way, it's perfect because everything washes out perfectly in my conception of it, whereas people trying to equationify everything, they always end up being unable to get it.

1001
01:25:34,973 --> 01:25:39,973
I remember. And it's great because you actually just already gave the argument to what I was going to ask.

1002
01:25:39,973 --> 01:25:46,973
So I want to challenge the assumption that all of it will – all of the fees will go into the block for the miners.

1003
01:25:46,973 --> 01:25:49,973
That's exactly right. They may not.

1004
01:25:49,973 --> 01:25:52,973
But if they don't, it's because of some real reason.

1005
01:25:52,973 --> 01:25:57,973
Because it's open-ended, right? Because anyone can become one of those.

1006
01:25:57,973 --> 01:26:00,973
That's right. Exactly.

1007
01:26:00,973 --> 01:26:03,973
Would they use stake for that mechanism?

1008
01:26:03,973 --> 01:26:07,973
They need to have L1 coin to bid, and they collect L2 coins.

1009
01:26:07,973 --> 01:26:15,973
So if you call that staking, then yes, but I wouldn't call it staking per se, but you're right that they have to already have liquid cash.

1010
01:26:15,973 --> 01:26:17,973
They have to already have money to do it.

1011
01:26:17,973 --> 01:26:25,973
Interesting. Okay. That is staking. You can use it for different things though. Okay.

1012
01:26:25,973 --> 01:26:38,973
Because the L1 coin is slightly superior. L1 to L2 basically instantly and perfectly with no issues, but coming back from the L2 to L1 is inconvenient.

1013
01:26:38,973 --> 01:26:42,973
So in that sense, it's kind of like you have to have the better coin.

1014
01:26:42,973 --> 01:26:53,973
Yet another reason though is why you would not want it to be tightly coupled with the equation is that the L1 and the L2 coins, one might be worth like 99% of the other or some other percent.

1015
01:26:53,973 --> 01:27:06,973
So this actually works out great because whoever is most able to jump all the hurdles, they'll pay the L1 coins and the miners will just be thinking,

1016
01:27:06,973 --> 01:27:15,973
this is just one transaction we included in one L1 block, and we're getting like $5,000 for this every block or whatever it is.

1017
01:27:15,973 --> 01:27:32,973
But if someone were to say create an L2, and it'd be like that has some sort of Turing complete VM in there like EVM or SVM or move language or something like that.

1018
01:27:33,973 --> 01:27:39,973
They could just program that part of the fee revenue goes back to them, right?

1019
01:27:39,973 --> 01:27:49,973
And that is part of the bidding pool, so to speak, in order to send back to the…

1020
01:27:49,973 --> 01:27:52,973
Anything that's not part of the bidding pool.

1021
01:27:52,973 --> 01:27:53,973
Sorry?

1022
01:27:54,973 --> 01:27:56,973
So think about it like this.

1023
01:27:56,973 --> 01:28:03,973
The block is worth a certain amount, but this includes all the MEV, includes the transaction fees.

1024
01:28:03,973 --> 01:28:07,973
And then a block is also, it takes a certain amount of work to make.

1025
01:28:07,973 --> 01:28:17,973
You have to run the L2 node, you have to deal with the block maturity, 100 block block maturity period, and you have to maybe withdraw the coins from L2 to L1.

1026
01:28:17,973 --> 01:28:20,973
So it's a big combination of things.

1027
01:28:20,973 --> 01:28:34,973
Now, if you're saying that on the L2, someone is going to program something that makes the L2 block worth less, then either it's just worth less for everyone or it's only worth less for you, in which case your bid is not going to be as high.

1028
01:28:34,973 --> 01:28:39,973
If they're like a big perp exchange and they're making millions of dollars a day, right?

1029
01:28:39,973 --> 01:28:43,973
And then they're like, okay, we're going to program off to go part of the founding company.

1030
01:28:43,973 --> 01:28:47,973
And then they can help that to scale operations or whatever.

1031
01:28:48,973 --> 01:28:56,973
I mean, you could potentially program anything with these kind of value flows within those type of virtual machines, right?

1032
01:28:56,973 --> 01:29:10,973
Yeah. As I understand it, it just is dependent on the miners still generating enough in fee revenue to not just make a copy of it in which they are paid the full amount.

1033
01:29:11,973 --> 01:29:20,973
Yeah, we're not going to be able to stop people from competing with the blockchain itself.

1034
01:29:20,973 --> 01:29:27,973
So there could always be someone who says, hey, here is my fully custodial exchange.

1035
01:29:27,973 --> 01:29:32,973
I charge my own fees, which are low and I have instant everything.

1036
01:29:32,973 --> 01:29:36,973
We can't do anything about that.

1037
01:29:37,973 --> 01:29:42,973
So we wouldn't be able to stop those fees from getting leached off that way.

1038
01:29:42,973 --> 01:29:57,973
And I think this is part of the it's funny you bring that up, because I think this is part of the annoying thing with the MEV conversation is that these people in BTC have produced this unmeetable list of completely absurd criteria that it's almost laughable.

1039
01:29:58,973 --> 01:30:11,973
Like if you just write it all down, they want it to be like the perfect system doesn't leach any fees from L1, but it doesn't add any fees back either, because this is like effect quote affecting mining incentives on close quote.

1040
01:30:11,973 --> 01:30:20,973
But we are allowed to do all this merge mining and you're allowed to do like, you know, if you have like heating a swimming pool, then that's kind of allowed.

1041
01:30:20,973 --> 01:30:25,973
Or if you're drying the persimmons, that's sort of allowed.

1042
01:30:25,973 --> 01:30:36,973
So they've constructed this absurd list of what they consider to be like valid ways of paying miners more money or not.

1043
01:30:36,973 --> 01:30:40,973
And I think they have they have not even the faintest clue how absurd it really is.

1044
01:30:41,973 --> 01:30:46,973
But in certain things with this like demand, you're allowed to do these Texas demand management credits.

1045
01:30:46,973 --> 01:30:53,973
And of course, the difficulty is allowed to adjust up and down, which affects mining costs and profits enormously.

1046
01:30:53,973 --> 01:31:04,973
So it's so I think it's very funny that this is this reminds me of that because it's like, OK, well, what if people just stop using the what if people just stop using the L2 for whatever reason?

1047
01:31:04,973 --> 01:31:06,973
And it's like, we're really not responsible for that.

1048
01:31:06,973 --> 01:31:09,973
It's like all we're trying to say is anyone can get it out.

1049
01:31:09,973 --> 01:31:16,973
Right. And like if there's an incentive for them to be able to change the rules in that way, right, then that will happen.

1050
01:31:16,973 --> 01:31:19,973
And that that's what that's one of the lessons in Ethereum. Right.

1051
01:31:19,973 --> 01:31:23,973
It was the whole power crops and absolute power crops. Absolutely none.

1052
01:31:23,973 --> 01:31:29,973
Like like if you look at like the top 20, not a single one has removed their admin key.

1053
01:31:29,973 --> 01:31:32,973
Not one. Pretty wild.

1054
01:31:32,973 --> 01:31:41,973
Well, yeah, I think the admin key, the admin key is the a crazy advantage of the block chain system.

1055
01:31:41,973 --> 01:31:47,973
I don't even know. I have no idea if Satoshi foresaw this or if there's some kind of like inherent connection.

1056
01:31:47,973 --> 01:31:55,973
I don't really know how it works. But basically, the you can upgrade via the soft fork.

1057
01:31:55,973 --> 01:32:01,973
I'm not even sure if Satoshi realized this at the time or something, but this this fact and the fact that the Drivechain L2s,

1058
01:32:01,973 --> 01:32:05,973
they're also block chains and you could also upgrade them with soft fork.

1059
01:32:05,973 --> 01:32:13,973
I mean, I think you're honestly screwed because just about every other thing requires the admin key or something admin key like.

1060
01:32:13,973 --> 01:32:23,973
And like for the you know, the Stark verifier, you like can't change the version and the same for like RGB.

1061
01:32:23,973 --> 01:32:30,973
You are like stuck with it has to be like perfect and it includes no bugs, whereas in the block chain model where you can software,

1062
01:32:30,973 --> 01:32:36,973
you can usually just soft fork out any bug and just say that that type of thing is banned, henceforth.

1063
01:32:36,973 --> 01:32:42,973
And so it's really wild how completely overpowered the block chain model is.

1064
01:32:42,973 --> 01:32:48,973
And now the admin key, of course, the admin keys are terrible because they're decentralized.

1065
01:32:48,973 --> 01:32:56,973
These admin keys are only on L2s, right? Like the L1s, Ethereum, Solana, Hyperliquid, they don't have admin keys, right?

1066
01:32:56,973 --> 01:33:00,973
Because they are one they're based on a consensus just just like based on.

1067
01:33:00,973 --> 01:33:04,973
This is why I hate all these other people like what about these L2s over here?

1068
01:33:04,973 --> 01:33:10,973
But it's like if it's an admin key, then to me, it's not it's already fully custodial, in my opinion.

1069
01:33:10,973 --> 01:33:17,973
Yeah, it's like people don't treat them like fully custodial because people have their own keys and they can withdraw at any point,

1070
01:33:17,973 --> 01:33:21,973
but the catch is also they can steal all user funds at any point as well.

1071
01:33:21,973 --> 01:33:25,973
And through the sequencer, they can also censor to.

1072
01:33:25,973 --> 01:33:31,973
Yeah, so you see, but that's exactly what mining is supposed to prevent in Bitcoin.

1073
01:33:31,973 --> 01:33:36,973
But proof of stake is the same thing, right? We can agree on that, right, Paul?

1074
01:33:37,973 --> 01:33:50,973
Yeah, I'm saying that the reason why the Drivechain is the actual L2 is because it doesn't have any of those flaws.

1075
01:33:50,973 --> 01:33:56,973
Well, an L2 could be based on proof of stake, right?

1076
01:33:56,973 --> 01:34:02,973
You could have an L2 with a Drivechain, eCash L2 based on proof of stake, right?

1077
01:34:02,973 --> 01:34:04,973
I think it would make a lot of sense to do that.

1078
01:34:05,973 --> 01:34:12,973
Yes, you could have an L2 where the deposits and the withdrawals are BIP300.

1079
01:34:12,973 --> 01:34:17,973
And then the L2 is itself blind merge mine with BIP301.

1080
01:34:17,973 --> 01:34:19,973
So that's Blind Merged Mining. So that's not proof of stake.

1081
01:34:19,973 --> 01:34:24,973
But on that L2, you could have people's stake basically.

1082
01:34:24,973 --> 01:34:29,973
And now you have basically created like an L3 chain that that could be like perfectly proof of stake.

1083
01:34:29,973 --> 01:34:34,973
And that could have instant block times. And in fact, that could have all kinds of crazy things.

1084
01:34:34,973 --> 01:34:39,973
Why would it have to be the L3? Why can't you do that for the L2? I missed that.

1085
01:34:39,973 --> 01:34:45,973
Well, because you need to know. Well, I mean, I think you could technically, but I'm not sure if you would want to.

1086
01:34:45,973 --> 01:34:50,973
Because you need to know the deposit. You need some way of knowing the deposit and withdrawal.

1087
01:34:51,973 --> 01:34:58,973
Well, OK, sure. I think you need some way of knowing which coins have been deposited and withdrawn successfully.

1088
01:34:58,973 --> 01:35:03,973
And you need some way. It is possible to have a Drivechain that does not use Blind Merged Mining.

1089
01:35:03,973 --> 01:35:09,973
And that is itself 100 percent custodial. But I mean, you just kind of lose a lot of the benefits.

1090
01:35:09,973 --> 01:35:13,973
It's kind of like at that point, because you might as well just run a fully custodial.

1091
01:35:13,973 --> 01:35:17,973
If you're not using Blind Merged Mining to advance the blocks. Right.

1092
01:35:17,973 --> 01:35:23,973
Then it's kind of like, well, then how is it any different from just saying, send me all of your coins and then I'll send them back.

1093
01:35:23,973 --> 01:35:28,973
I promise. It's kind of like it's kind of like a little confusing at that point.

1094
01:35:28,973 --> 01:35:31,973
But people could do it.

1095
01:35:31,973 --> 01:35:38,973
You just replace the proof of stake with that. And you can still just send the rewards back to the L1.

1096
01:35:38,973 --> 01:35:45,973
You just have the L1, the L2 consensus is just based on proof of stake instead. In theory, I don't see any problem.

1097
01:35:45,973 --> 01:35:58,973
Well, another thing, though, is that the idea behind the Drivechain is that the miners on L1 will be very happy to have it around because they have all the fee revenue from merge mining that they are making.

1098
01:35:58,973 --> 01:36:05,973
So if there's absolutely zero merge mining revenue, then they would kind of that would not be a great position for it to be.

1099
01:36:06,973 --> 01:36:15,973
And I think this is all set up with the assumption that these are just giant magic money trees printing lots of money all the time for L1 miners.

1100
01:36:15,973 --> 01:36:19,973
And that's kind of what keeps everything aligned.

1101
01:36:19,973 --> 01:36:24,973
So, again, this is like the ethereumization of it. It's like changing, changing all these.

1102
01:36:24,973 --> 01:36:27,973
These are very kind of simple parts of the design.

1103
01:36:27,973 --> 01:36:34,973
People just saying, well, what if I gave all the fees to myself? And then it's like, well, something something bad would eventually happen and then no one would care.

1104
01:36:34,973 --> 01:36:44,973
One of the things we were talking about before is just how a lot of these other chains try to do everything and how in doing so you kind of limit yourself in certain ways.

1105
01:36:44,973 --> 01:36:50,973
Oh, no, I'm a big believer in what I'm calling the everything chain thesis.

1106
01:36:50,973 --> 01:36:58,973
So I'm very much on the side of Solana and Hyperliquid, maybe to a lesser extent, trying to do everything right now.

1107
01:36:59,973 --> 01:37:12,973
Do you think that you lose any sort of granularity in what you're trying to achieve if you appeal to, I suppose, the use cases of anything?

1108
01:37:12,973 --> 01:37:16,973
I think it's the opposite, at least from a technical perspective.

1109
01:37:16,973 --> 01:37:32,973
Because I think that the chain, if, for instance, if like a spot exchange and a perp exchange is what generates the most revenue for the chain, then, you know, security, decentralization, scarcity being tied to the economics and fees.

1110
01:37:32,973 --> 01:37:37,973
Right. That means, you know, it actually improves those qualities over time.

1111
01:37:37,973 --> 01:37:42,973
So I think there's like a beneficial relationship between all of these different aspects.

1112
01:37:42,973 --> 01:37:48,973
Something that's a bit of money is also a bit of store of value, I could say as well.

1113
01:37:48,973 --> 01:37:58,973
You suppose, as I understand it then, that the price going up somehow helps these functionalities and that doing everything increases the price?

1114
01:37:58,973 --> 01:38:05,973
Yes. Yes. That's one way to really – there's a bit more to it, but yes, absolutely.

1115
01:38:05,973 --> 01:38:17,973
Because I suppose in certain cases, I think that the price just increasing can cause, I suppose, like additional issues that you would see in like Bitcoin Core.

1116
01:38:17,973 --> 01:38:31,973
But hold on, that's not fair. That's not fair, right? Because my position is one of big blocks, speed, let's go build products and utility. I'm a value investor, right?

1117
01:38:31,973 --> 01:38:44,973
So my position, I went from Bitcoin to Ethereum, Bitcoin Cash to Ethereum to Solana today. So my position is more that, right?

1118
01:38:44,973 --> 01:38:57,973
So more, I suppose I would describe myself as anything that increases the fees necessarily being the thing which is a functionality worth adding to the chain or a sidechain or something like that.

1119
01:38:57,973 --> 01:39:00,973
And I don't know, this is somewhat vague.

1120
01:39:00,973 --> 01:39:11,973
To the chain specifically, I've also been very critical of L2s in the past. And so this conversation with Paul is I'm trying to figure out how tightly bound is it?

1121
01:39:11,973 --> 01:39:17,973
Because I like enshrined L2s. I don't like the type of L2s Ethereum did.

1122
01:39:18,973 --> 01:39:36,973
And I suppose like the functionality that I'm describing that, you know, like Ethereum is stuck with, for example, maybe this is like minutiae, but when they like create an account space model as opposed to UTXO, that has like consequences in terms of technically like what you're capable of doing.

1123
01:39:37,973 --> 01:39:59,973
I think that if you have the ability to just, you know, oh, we're not doing the accounts model, we're doing a UTXO and it's on its own chain attached through Drivechains, that gives you more functionality in the sense that, you know, the nonce or whatever of the account doesn't prevent you from paying fees in the own currency when you're sending a tether or something like that.

1124
01:39:59,973 --> 01:40:02,973
Like this is an obscure example, but like.

1125
01:40:02,894 --> 01:40:20,894
That is the type of, I suppose, like specificity I think you maybe lose out is like applications that just change depending on the protocol that as implemented that you don't seem to be limited at all through the method of Drivechains as a scaling method.

1126
01:40:20,894 --> 01:40:26,894
So I don't know, I suppose, what is the scaling method you see as being like superior in some ways?

1127
01:40:26,894 --> 01:40:37,894
Well, I think right now the winner is a kind of the pedal to the metal, what I would call like a pure parallelized approach to scaling.

1128
01:40:37,894 --> 01:40:58,894
So it's very focused on just parallelizing the workload as much as possible. And through that we're achieving 10 to 40,000 TPS. But it's actually a trade-off if you compare that to modern sharded systems, because sharded systems can achieve potentially even over a million TPS.

1129
01:40:59,894 --> 01:41:17,894
But the trade-off is speed. So a sharded system can maybe, you know, if there's multiple hops then there's actually a delay for each hop between, for inter-shard communication. In the case of something like Near at least, or otherwise they just need to keep the, so it's more limited, so say about 600 milliseconds.

1130
01:41:17,894 --> 01:41:39,894
So it turns out that actually the vast majority of usage is now on purely parallelized blockchains. And these have max capacities currently of like 10 to 40,000 TPS. But they're working on pushing that significantly in other ways, which is going to be interesting to see.

1131
01:41:39,894 --> 01:41:58,894
But there the cutting edge is going to be 400 milliseconds to about 200 milliseconds. And then the next generation we're going to see about 150. It's actually pushing beyond light speed globally, but that's because of multi-leader architectures. So that to me is the cutting edge today.

1132
01:41:59,894 --> 01:42:12,894
I suppose, yeah, this is the argument of like, is there a value to decentralization itself? Because I think at the, you know, limit, it just becomes sort of, you have like a Chowmian Mint or just like a centralized exchange.

1133
01:42:12,894 --> 01:42:24,894
But here's the thing. I would argue that Solana today is more decentralized than Bitcoin. And I can actually argue that across basically all metrics at this stage.

1134
01:42:25,894 --> 01:42:36,894
I suppose, regardless of if Solana is more decentralized, I suppose like in how it is operating, it's fundamentally just different architecturally.

1135
01:42:36,894 --> 01:42:38,894
Oh yeah, it's actually different for sure.

1136
01:42:39,894 --> 01:43:00,894
So I suppose, I think that you can further Solana just by making it even more decentralized, more centralized in whatever the spectrum is, wherever it falls. There is just a way in which it sort of like fails to seemingly like Eagle. There's something that just is like literally a server.

1137
01:43:02,894 --> 01:43:04,894
Sorry, I missed that last part.

1138
01:43:04,894 --> 01:43:22,894
Well, just I think like in terms of like the complexity of just like operating it, like, I think you lose out to just something that is just one server. Just like Solana loses out to that and is currently just sort of doing like regulatory arbitrage.

1139
01:43:23,894 --> 01:43:46,894
It's because people do value decentralization and neutrality and censorship resistance. But, you know, it would also be good if it's a far more competitive version of that. And that's what this is. And also the gap is not that big anymore. Hyperliquid is seriously competing with stock markets today on commodities. It's fascinating to watch.

1140
01:43:47,894 --> 01:43:49,894
I suppose, how much of that do you think…

1141
01:43:49,894 --> 01:43:50,894
I have a question actually.

1142
01:43:50,894 --> 01:43:51,894
Go for it.

1143
01:43:53,894 --> 01:44:15,894
Well, my question is about how you measure decentralization, because I was always very happy with the definition of how much it costs to spin up a new full node. And it is still easier to spin up a new full node of Bitcoin Core than Solana. I was always happy. This is the definition that I brought.

1144
01:44:16,894 --> 01:44:21,894
I think it's regulatory arbitrage is the definition.

1145
01:44:22,894 --> 01:44:46,894
Actually, I have a really interesting way to challenge that definition. Paul, what is more decentralized? 100 Raspberry Pis run out of hardcore cypherpunks' basements? Or 10,000 high-powered validators run out of data centers? What is more decentralized?

1146
01:44:47,894 --> 01:45:04,894
Well, I don't know, because when I wrote my essay measuring decentralization, I was trying to figure out what does it mean to have… Because, of course, there are many different ways of making something decentralized. And this is in a bad way, because it doesn't help us define the term.

1147
01:45:05,894 --> 01:45:24,894
But usually when people… When you say something is decentralized, they're talking about chess, because you can't just change the rules to chess. You could declare something, but chess is already out there and people can do it without you.

1148
01:45:25,894 --> 01:45:34,894
So they're going to just keep playing the old version of chess. And it's kind of like English language. Yeah, you could declare something. You could say looks maxing isn't a word.

1149
01:45:35,894 --> 01:45:36,894
Let's break it down a little bit.

1150
01:45:37,894 --> 01:46:01,894
One second. Can I try to answer it? Because I think that here the constraints actually are something that help further it. So even though, in your example, the 10,000 servers are going to be superior to the 100,000 Raspberry Pis, it's a lot more difficult to write the software, and it's better software, on the 10,000 Raspberry Pis than it is the 1,000 servers.

1151
01:46:01,894 --> 01:46:10,894
And I think that is the value you're kind of lacking, is just the quality of the code itself will probably be better if it's actually running on this network of 100,000 Pis.

1152
01:46:14,894 --> 01:46:17,894
Versus 10,000 professionals? High-powered professionals?

1153
01:46:17,894 --> 01:46:20,894
10,000 servers. I think it's like, let's say…

1154
01:46:20,894 --> 01:46:27,894
High-powered validators. That means like really, usually really big companies and organizations and professionals.

1155
01:46:28,894 --> 01:46:34,894
Right. It's a lot easier to run like bad software in that environment than it is on a Raspberry Pi.

1156
01:46:35,894 --> 01:46:40,894
It would be distributed, right? There'd be 10,000 individual validators, right?

1157
01:46:40,894 --> 01:46:51,894
Right. And it's really easy for them to just have a lot of like built-up nonsense and garbage, in my opinion, than it is if you have to like really care about the efficiency.

1158
01:46:52,894 --> 01:47:05,894
But what we see in like high-powered networks such as Solana, which has multiple clients competing with each other, is they really, really care about the bottom line, which is cutting out all the garbage is actually how you get 400 milliseconds.

1159
01:47:05,894 --> 01:47:14,894
But it's like not able to fail. Sorry, I didn't mean to over-talk you, but it's not able to fail. And that's not necessarily good, in my opinion.

1160
01:47:14,894 --> 01:47:23,894
Like you want anti-fragile systems, not necessarily like the best systems. And I think you lose some of that anti-fragility if you don't have the 100,000.

1161
01:47:23,894 --> 01:47:30,894
In my view, in the best system, you don't lose the anti-fragility, right? I'm not really arguing. That's the trade-off here.

1162
01:47:30,894 --> 01:47:37,894
And that's why maybe I would love to continue with Paul, this definition thing, the decentralization.

1163
01:47:38,894 --> 01:47:49,894
I agree. The semantics of it is kind of hilarious because, in my view, decentralization is like a spectrum, and it's actually a spectrum made up of like multiple factors, right?

1164
01:47:49,894 --> 01:47:53,894
It could be multidimensional. I agree.

1165
01:47:53,894 --> 01:47:59,894
Whenever we say decentralized or centralized, it's always an oversimplification.

1166
01:48:00,894 --> 01:48:15,894
Yeah, I always try to avoid using the whole decentralized-centralized thing because actually, Satoshi doesn't mention – it takes a long time for him to use the word decentralized.

1167
01:48:15,894 --> 01:48:21,894
He's comparing like Napster to like whatever, like BitTorrent or something.

1168
01:48:21,894 --> 01:48:27,894
So in that case, it's totally unambiguous, like what he's talking about. He's talking about like there's one –

1169
01:48:28,894 --> 01:48:31,894
But in the white paper and all the other stuff, he says peer-to-peer.

1170
01:48:31,894 --> 01:48:41,894
And that also has an unambiguous meaning, which is to say that all the – which is something you don't have in Solana necessarily, but maybe it doesn't matter.

1171
01:48:41,894 --> 01:48:49,894
But the point is, in Bitcoin, you run the node, and your node is exactly the same as Satoshi's node. They're indistinguishable.

1172
01:48:49,894 --> 01:48:51,894
So in that case, it was always totally clear.

1173
01:48:51,894 --> 01:48:55,894
Satoshi had a lot more mining power behind him, so he didn't answer.

1174
01:48:56,894 --> 01:49:06,894
The Bitcoin SV world. Yeah, because I think they're actually all very different things.

1175
01:49:06,894 --> 01:49:13,894
So to me – but yeah, I recognize that people have very different conceptions of how this all works.

1176
01:49:13,894 --> 01:49:14,894
My definition, my perspective.

1177
01:49:14,894 --> 01:49:17,894
Well, let me ask you this about the mining question.

1178
01:49:17,894 --> 01:49:18,894
Yeah.

1179
01:49:18,894 --> 01:49:19,894
Okay, we can go back.

1180
01:49:19,894 --> 01:49:21,894
Yeah, I think it's the distribution of power.

1181
01:49:21,894 --> 01:49:22,894
Okay, the mining thing.

1182
01:49:22,894 --> 01:49:28,894
How do you know how much hash rate a node has?

1183
01:49:28,894 --> 01:49:32,894
Because actually, the hash rate is something that is experienced over time.

1184
01:49:32,894 --> 01:49:42,894
And it's not like if you have a V8 engine, you have a certain amount of horsepower, or you could have a steam engine, like a certain number of – you have a kilowatt hour.

1185
01:49:42,894 --> 01:49:50,894
These are like inherent properties of something, but like an ASIC could have a certain amount of hash power.

1186
01:49:50,894 --> 01:49:57,894
But then you can point the ASIC at a different node, or you can point it at a node that's actually free-riding off someone else's node.

1187
01:49:57,894 --> 01:50:03,894
And then which node actually, quote, has, unquote, the hash power.

1188
01:50:03,894 --> 01:50:08,894
So I always thought the hash power thing was like a big red herring, and I thought it was unrelated to decentralization.

1189
01:50:08,894 --> 01:50:10,894
I agree with you, actually.

1190
01:50:10,894 --> 01:50:18,894
Because I think my definition, my perspective, to sum it up very simply, it's the measurement of the distribution of power, which is distribution of power.

1191
01:50:18,894 --> 01:50:21,894
That's how I would very simply define what is decentralization.

1192
01:50:21,894 --> 01:50:23,894
And I will say decentralization is important.

1193
01:50:23,894 --> 01:50:28,894
It is somewhat what defines crypto and why it's interesting.

1194
01:50:28,894 --> 01:50:34,894
And for me, I also very much view it as kind of an evolution of certain political ideas as well, right?

1195
01:50:34,894 --> 01:50:42,894
In terms of like – in many ways, an evolution of the separation of powers, right?

1196
01:50:42,894 --> 01:50:44,894
If you really think about it.

1197
01:50:44,894 --> 01:50:47,894
So I think there's a lot of benefits to that.

1198
01:50:47,894 --> 01:50:50,894
It's a shield against tyranny.

1199
01:50:50,894 --> 01:50:51,894
Yeah.

1200
01:50:51,894 --> 01:50:52,894
And I think there's –

1201
01:50:52,894 --> 01:50:55,894
In addition to being like –

1202
01:50:55,894 --> 01:50:56,894
Yeah.

1203
01:50:56,894 --> 01:50:57,894
Sorry.

1204
01:50:57,894 --> 01:50:59,894
So I agree, actually.

1205
01:50:59,894 --> 01:51:01,894
I like those definitions as well a lot.

1206
01:51:01,894 --> 01:51:08,894
So for me, the answer is it's 10,000 high-powered validators because that's more distributed, right?

1207
01:51:08,894 --> 01:51:14,894
And that's harder to take down, for some adversary to take down, I would argue.

1208
01:51:14,894 --> 01:51:18,894
But that's affected by like how I'm defining this.

1209
01:51:18,894 --> 01:51:20,894
But also like how we look at decentralization.

1210
01:51:20,894 --> 01:51:22,894
We can look at like the Nakamoto coefficient.

1211
01:51:22,894 --> 01:51:28,894
What is the weakest point of attack in terms of number of participants to collude in order to take down the system, right?

1212
01:51:28,894 --> 01:51:30,894
We can look at like governance.

1213
01:51:30,894 --> 01:51:35,894
We can look at like validator counts slash block producers in the context of proof of work, right?

1214
01:51:35,894 --> 01:51:37,894
We can look at all of these different things.

1215
01:51:37,894 --> 01:51:51,894
I don't really count node requirements because I actually think there's a balancing act between making the network useful so that people actually have a reason to run a node.

1216
01:51:51,894 --> 01:51:56,894
And what I think is more important, a validator.

1217
01:51:56,894 --> 01:52:02,894
Well, I definitely think that what you could do is you could break it down into sub-components.

1218
01:52:02,894 --> 01:52:11,894
So you and I could agree that there is something such as the cost of running a full node and that kind of like other things being equal, it would be better if it were lower.

1219
01:52:11,894 --> 01:52:14,894
If you could actually do the exact thing.

1220
01:52:14,894 --> 01:52:15,894
Yeah.

1221
01:52:15,894 --> 01:52:19,894
If you could actually process the same throughput and all the rest was the same.

1222
01:52:19,894 --> 01:52:23,894
So that would be kind of like, that was kind of like what I latched on to.

1223
01:52:23,894 --> 01:52:36,894
It's ironic that after doing that, I was like, okay, immediately after defining that, I could like, I basically came up with Drivechain and I was like, oh, you can have the small blockers and large blocks can just both get what they want.

1224
01:52:36,894 --> 01:52:47,894
But of course, as you know, perfectly well, Justin, some of these small blockers are just weirdo crazy people who just what they really wanted was to like run the project into the ground or just for their own benefit or something.

1225
01:52:47,894 --> 01:52:48,894
So they were like kind of bizarre.

1226
01:52:48,894 --> 01:52:50,894
And so they didn't placate them at all.

1227
01:52:50,894 --> 01:52:55,894
This idea that, oh, we just have the L2 be detached from the cost of running the L1 node.

1228
01:52:55,894 --> 01:52:57,894
And now it doesn't affect.

1229
01:52:58,894 --> 01:53:22,894
I still wonder to this day, I don't even know if certain people even like Peter Todd has like a bizarre view that it's like if any any minor anywhere could be tempted to run the L2 node for any reason, either because it produces so much money that it's the temptation to run the node is overwhelming, or that it costs so much that it would running the node would be like really, really inconvenient and put them out of business.

1230
01:53:22,894 --> 01:53:31,894
He he has this bizarre like view where it's like it doesn't even matter which of those two it is either in either way that proves that the L2 is bad.

1231
01:53:31,894 --> 01:53:32,894
It doesn't make any sense to me.

1232
01:53:32,894 --> 01:53:34,894
I can't make any sense of it at all.

1233
01:53:34,894 --> 01:53:36,894
I think it's just nonsensical.

1234
01:53:37,894 --> 01:53:45,894
So it's kind of neat that I came up with this version and then you could immediately invent Drivechain which supposedly worked for everyone.

1235
01:53:45,894 --> 01:53:49,894
Although not in practice, because people don't know what they want.

1236
01:53:50,894 --> 01:54:06,894
Yeah, there's this thing similarity you can you can draw off like altos in Ethereum because they do like bid for space of terms of block availability on their, their, their data availability layer that they built up out for that.

1237
01:54:06,894 --> 01:54:11,894
Alright, so I mean, I think that's a little bit comparable to what's happening here as well.

1238
01:54:11,894 --> 01:54:13,894
No.

1239
01:54:13,894 --> 01:54:15,894
At least on that aspect.

1240
01:54:15,894 --> 01:54:21,894
And I would also agree that like there's other ways like there's like a way of being physically decentralized.

1241
01:54:21,894 --> 01:54:23,894
It's like, you know, there's like the Pentagon.

1242
01:54:23,894 --> 01:54:26,894
There's like Washington DC and then there's like the Pentagon.

1243
01:54:26,894 --> 01:54:33,894
And then there's like the Kremlin and Moscow and then there's like the actual US Army is like spread out.

1244
01:54:33,894 --> 01:54:34,894
Yeah.

1245
01:54:34,894 --> 01:54:37,894
So these are like all kinds of way.

1246
01:54:38,894 --> 01:54:48,894
I think 40% of the validator power was like in a data center not not far from where I lived here for Solana, this was a few years ago but we were joking if someone bombed it.

1247
01:54:48,894 --> 01:54:50,894
It would be bad.

1248
01:54:50,894 --> 01:54:55,894
Someone told me in like 2022 they said there's actually only like three Solana nodes.

1249
01:54:55,894 --> 01:55:06,894
But to their credit, the Solana people, they put in a lot of hard work and hired a lot of like PhDs and they, they put in a lot of effort to make it easier to run a node.

1250
01:55:07,894 --> 01:55:09,894
And, you know, the technology improved.

1251
01:55:09,894 --> 01:55:12,894
And so now it only costs like $16,000.

1252
01:55:12,894 --> 01:55:14,894
This is not the metric that you even care about.

1253
01:55:14,894 --> 01:55:22,894
But now they got it down from like very, very high to like $16,000 a year or something to run the Solana node, which is I think that's very impressive.

1254
01:55:22,894 --> 01:55:23,894
Oh, yeah.

1255
01:55:23,894 --> 01:55:26,894
I think you're referring to Mithra, that implementation, right?

1256
01:55:26,894 --> 01:55:28,894
Is that Mithra?

1257
01:55:29,894 --> 01:55:32,894
I don't know the name.

1258
01:55:32,894 --> 01:55:36,894
Solana having three validators in 22, that's just completely incorrect.

1259
01:55:36,894 --> 01:55:40,894
I think it had around 3,000 around that day, maybe a bit less.

1260
01:55:40,894 --> 01:55:50,894
No, I was just saying like, I don't know if like having like PhDs be working on the L1 node is really what you want.

1261
01:55:50,894 --> 01:55:51,894
Which is not a good thing.

1262
01:55:51,894 --> 01:55:53,894
I actually agree with that 100%.

1263
01:55:53,894 --> 01:55:56,894
It's usually, in my experience, a terrible thing in crypto.

1264
01:55:56,894 --> 01:55:59,894
I was going to point it out, but I'm glad you did, JK.

1265
01:55:59,894 --> 01:56:01,894
I wasn't going to.

1266
01:56:01,894 --> 01:56:11,894
Ideally, you'd have those people or whatever money is being spent usually by some foundation go towards like uses, you know, like of users and things like that on a sidechain.

1267
01:56:11,894 --> 01:56:17,894
Or paying the developers to actually like do developers that can actually pull it off to go to go do it.

1268
01:56:17,894 --> 01:56:19,894
Or other organizations as well.

1269
01:56:20,894 --> 01:56:26,894
The cool thing is when you have multiple clients racing to all kind of do the cutting edge.

1270
01:56:26,894 --> 01:56:29,894
And these are usually not PhDs who are.

1271
01:56:29,894 --> 01:56:33,894
PhDs usually spend more time writing papers, right?

1272
01:56:33,894 --> 01:56:35,894
They do building things.

1273
01:56:35,894 --> 01:56:42,894
Well, competition is in favor of competition, so.

1274
01:56:42,894 --> 01:56:44,894
We only have three minutes left, unfortunately.

1275
01:56:44,894 --> 01:56:47,894
So I don't know if anyone had anything they really wanted to say.

1276
01:56:47,894 --> 01:56:48,894
Jump up now.

1277
01:56:48,894 --> 01:56:49,894
Quick.

1278
01:56:49,894 --> 01:56:55,894
I guess, you know, what type of defy are you hoping exists in this world?

1279
01:56:55,894 --> 01:56:58,894
Paul, anything in particular?

1280
01:56:58,894 --> 01:57:03,894
About me, I kind of think, OK, so obviously I like prediction markets.

1281
01:57:03,894 --> 01:57:04,894
I don't know.

1282
01:57:04,894 --> 01:57:06,894
I think the.

1283
01:57:06,894 --> 01:57:10,894
If it's really true that there are like.

1284
01:57:10,894 --> 01:57:13,894
Redeemable like you have the USDT.

1285
01:57:13,894 --> 01:57:19,894
And if it's really the case that people are making other kinds of redeemable stuff and there's this huge amounts of.

1286
01:57:19,894 --> 01:57:23,894
Trading volumes and that there's then then we should do it.

1287
01:57:23,894 --> 01:57:27,894
I'm most one of the cool things about prediction market is the product is information.

1288
01:57:27,894 --> 01:57:38,894
So it's kind of like you can actually settle it all on chain without like someone having to ship a giant container of gold or whatever, like ten thousand pounds of copper or whatever it is.

1289
01:57:38,894 --> 01:57:43,894
So that seems like a horrible complication that I would never want to like.

1290
01:57:43,894 --> 01:57:45,894
How does it involve with.

1291
01:57:45,894 --> 01:57:46,894
How does like.

1292
01:57:46,894 --> 01:57:47,894
Sorry.

1293
01:57:47,894 --> 01:57:55,894
How does like Truthcoin benefit from being like really well capitalized than like if it is successful?

1294
01:57:55,894 --> 01:58:01,894
Well, when you mean capitalized, like I would say there's OK, I think there's a lot of markets that, you know.

1295
01:58:01,894 --> 01:58:05,894
So first of all, I am in favor of other things, like I do think people should have like digital property.

1296
01:58:05,894 --> 01:58:12,894
I think it's not the worst thing that people have these these ordinals and these like stock digital stock and bonds.

1297
01:58:12,894 --> 01:58:14,894
I think it's not the worst thing in the world.

1298
01:58:14,894 --> 01:58:17,894
And of course, the names we already discussed owning a name.

1299
01:58:17,894 --> 01:58:23,894
But if for prediction markets, I do think there are a lot that have been totally, you know, I've been writing about this for like ten years.

1300
01:58:23,894 --> 01:58:34,894
Even calcium and Polymarket, they're not doing what I always suggested year after year, which is that you have these these hybrid conditional markets.

1301
01:58:34,894 --> 01:58:41,894
So you say, like, OK, if we who's going to win the World Cup, if they fire their head coach tomorrow.

1302
01:58:41,894 --> 01:58:44,894
And then you have like parallel realities.

1303
01:58:44,894 --> 01:58:46,894
And this is what I was always saying.

1304
01:58:46,894 --> 01:58:47,894
What if the Fed cuts rates?

1305
01:58:47,894 --> 01:58:48,894
What would inflation be?

1306
01:58:48,894 --> 01:58:51,894
You know, if we fired the CEO, what would the stock price be?

1307
01:58:51,894 --> 01:58:56,894
If this if we fight, if the Republicans lose power in twenty twenty eight.

1308
01:58:56,894 --> 01:58:58,894
What will GDP be?

1309
01:58:58,894 --> 01:58:59,894
So that's what I was always saying.

1310
01:58:59,894 --> 01:59:00,894
Everyone should do.

1311
01:59:00,894 --> 01:59:02,894
And people still haven't done it.

1312
01:59:02,894 --> 01:59:05,894
So I think that's a huge I think that's totally big.

1313
01:59:05,894 --> 01:59:12,894
And, you know, if you people can just look into what I've written about that and hopefully they get excited about it in a similar way that I am.

1314
01:59:13,894 --> 01:59:26,894
Do you see at all, like any aspects of like just like highly liquid trading markets or like the in defy that kind of emulate any of those same benefits?

1315
01:59:26,894 --> 01:59:29,894
Or is it like you think totally orthogonal?

1316
01:59:29,894 --> 01:59:33,894
Well, I don't want people to get discouraged.

1317
01:59:33,894 --> 01:59:34,894
And I am a pluralist.

1318
01:59:34,894 --> 01:59:39,894
And I think, you know, if if that's what floats your boat, then great.

1319
01:59:39,894 --> 01:59:43,894
But, yeah, I could never really see a lot of value in the Ethereum defy.

1320
01:59:44,894 --> 01:59:47,894
I liked that it was, you know, it was unconstructed.

1321
01:59:47,894 --> 01:59:50,894
Like it was kind of like ordinals where I was like, OK, I'm happy that people are doing it.

1322
01:59:50,894 --> 01:59:52,894
I'm happy that fees are being paid.

1323
01:59:52,894 --> 01:59:54,894
I'm happy that we have real users.

1324
01:59:54,894 --> 02:00:00,894
But ultimately, it is just like buying a dollar bill with a weird serial number.

1325
02:00:00,894 --> 02:00:03,894
And ultimately, it did kind of it wasn't like long lived.

1326
02:00:04,894 --> 02:00:19,894
I would rather have, you know, like stuff where you could eventually have like a whole industry of people whose full time job is to bet on, OK, if what, you know, this type of trade where, you know, it's very, very, very high information where it's kind of saying like, OK, if we.

1327
02:00:20,894 --> 02:00:36,894
If the, you know, Democratic Party takes power and there is higher than expected inflation and the Federal Reserve chair is replaced and they cut interest rates and the, you know, velocity of money is this, then what is GDP?

1328
02:00:36,894 --> 02:00:48,894
You have like this, like extremely complicated situation where any traders, they may or may not have PhDs and they may or may not write papers in their spare time.

1329
02:00:48,894 --> 02:00:57,894
But, you know, anyone, you know, that's well, that's part of the benefit of this prediction market thing is that anyone could then do what the, you know, the FOMC does.

1330
02:00:57,894 --> 02:00:59,894
They can just say like, OK, if we.

1331
02:01:01,894 --> 02:01:03,894
Well, I don't you can read about the details.

1332
02:01:03,894 --> 02:01:05,894
It's kind of like it's hard to explain.

1333
02:01:05,894 --> 02:01:06,894
And so it's 401.

1334
02:01:06,894 --> 02:01:12,894
So but yeah, I don't you know, the Ethereum stuff seemed like a solution in search of a problem to me.

1335
02:01:12,894 --> 02:01:20,894
And it seemed almost as like they were desperate to show, well, some stuff can happen over here in Ethereum, whereas Bitcoin just does payments.

1336
02:01:20,894 --> 02:01:25,894
But we talked earlier how it's like ironic that now everyone thinks the grass is greener.

1337
02:01:25,894 --> 02:01:27,894
So I don't know if that was a real answer.

1338
02:01:27,894 --> 02:01:29,894
There's some crazy activity happening.

1339
02:01:29,894 --> 02:01:30,894
I will check it out.

1340
02:01:30,894 --> 02:01:33,894
It was a real pleasure chatting with you, Paul, as always.

1341
02:01:33,894 --> 02:01:34,894
Thank you.

1342
02:01:34,894 --> 02:01:35,894
Yeah.

1343
02:01:35,894 --> 02:01:36,894
Yeah.

1344
02:01:36,894 --> 02:01:37,894
Nice talking to you as always.

1345
02:01:37,894 --> 02:01:39,894
Thank you very much for stopping by.

1346
02:01:39,894 --> 02:01:40,894
Goodbye.

1347
02:01:40,894 --> 02:01:41,894
And stop back again.

1348
02:01:41,894 --> 02:01:43,894
We try to hang out on Wednesdays usually.

1349
02:01:43,894 --> 02:01:44,894
Awesome.

1350
02:01:44,894 --> 02:01:46,894
But we'll see.

1351
02:01:46,894 --> 02:01:47,894
I'll see.

1352
02:01:47,894 --> 02:01:49,894
And so thanks, everyone.

1353
02:01:49,894 --> 02:01:50,894
Thank you.

1354
02:01:50,894 --> 02:01:51,894
Yeah.

1355
02:01:51,894 --> 02:01:52,894
Same here.

1356
02:01:52,894 --> 02:01:54,894
So we'll have to end it now.

1357
02:01:54,894 --> 02:01:57,894
As always, we end it just as it gets going.

1358
02:01:57,894 --> 02:02:00,894
But that's just how it is.

1359
02:02:00,894 --> 02:02:02,894
So I'll see everyone next week.

1360
02:02:02,894 --> 02:02:04,894
And thanks very much for joining.

1361
02:02:04,894 --> 02:02:09,894
And I hope you all enjoy listening to the recording and see you on YouTube and et cetera.

1362
02:02:09,894 --> 02:02:12,894
So until next time, goodbye.