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Hello and welcome to Drivechain Twitter Spaces, run by LayerTwo Labs.

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This is Henry speaking.

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We're excited to have another day of conversation about Bitcoin Improvement Proposal 300 and

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301, Drivechain.

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Drivechain is an important potential upgrade for Bitcoin, years in the making.

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It has been analyzed and advocated for years, and now we are excited about the higher level

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of support and understanding that's been achieved lately.

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A high number of very well-known Bitcoiners support Drivechain.

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Their tweets are easily available on the internet.

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You can find what they've said.

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I collected them into a spreadsheet called Friends of Drivechain.

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It's available at www.drivechain.info forward slash friends.

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Again that's drivechain.info forward slash friends.

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Welcome to those who've joined the audience.

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All are welcome to come on up to the stage, raise your hand if you have a question or

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comment about Drivechain, BIP300 and 301.

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BIP300 is Hashrate Escrow, which is the peer-to-peer two-way peg for Bitcoin sidechains.

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BIP301 is Blind Merged Mining, which is an optimization of Satoshi's Merged Mining.

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In Blind Merged Mining, the miners on Bitcoin mainchain are paid in Bitcoin for merged mining

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of the sidechain.

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In Ordinary Merged Mining, they're paid in an altcoin.

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So the benefit of Blind Merged Mining is that it is Bitcoin-only, unlike Ordinary Merged

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Mining.

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Drivechain really is the most Bitcoin-only idea in the history of Bitcoin, if that makes

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any sense.

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What Drivechain is all about is enabling Bitcoin to platform virtually every technology currently

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only available on altcoins.

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Right now there are a number of technologies that are only available on altcoins, and in

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order to bring those into the peer-to-peer Bitcoin system, we need Drivechain.

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Drivechain fundamentally is an upgrade for Bitcoin's sidechains that make them more peer-to-peer.

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Making them more peer-to-peer is essential.

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Sidechains that aren't peer-to-peer are lacking in that important peer-to-peer attribute,

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which is so special to how Bitcoin operates.

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So right now Bitcoin is peer-to-peer, but its sidechains aren't.

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Each of the sidechains today requires a 15-party multisig federation for control of the Bitcoin

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sent to the sidechain.

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With Drivechain, that Bitcoin would be controlled by the miners, and since Bitcoin is peer-to-peer,

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Bitcoin mining is peer-to-peer, and therefore the two-way peg controlled by the sidechain

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miners is peer-to-peer in Drivechain.

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For a more detailed discussion, you can see the tweets of Adam Back, the essay by Fiat

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Joff, tweets by Michael Tidwell, and others.

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Fiatjaf's essay is especially good.

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Fiatjaf is the creator of Nostr and an avid supporter of Drivechain for Bitcoin.

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You can read Fiatjaf's essay at fiatjaf.com forward slash drivechain.html.

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So that's, I'll spell it out, f-i-a-t-j-a-f dot com, f-i-a-t-j-a-f dot com forward slash

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drivechain dot h-t-m-l.

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That's the essay by Fiatjaf, the creator of Nostr, his essay on Drivechain.

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If anyone in the audience has a question or comment, you're welcome to come on up

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to the stage and share it with us.

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This is a recorded Twitter space.

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All right.

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Don't be shy.

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Come on up.

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Ask your question or comment.

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Let's chat about Drivechain.

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We meet every Monday and Thursday.

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Welcome to those who've joined in the audience.

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Everyone's welcome to come on up to the stage and ask a question or share a comment.

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We had a great time at LayerTwo Labs in Miami.

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Our booth was visited by thousands of people.

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We handed out over a thousand t-shirts, hundreds of sunglasses, hundreds of pieces of paper

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with Drivechain explained on them, and a whole lot of candy and treats.

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We had visitors to our booth hitting a piñata that looked like an altcoin.

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We had a bunch of piñatas, and we had them destroyed one by one by blindfolded piñata

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bat visitors.

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It was a great moment to share the Drivechain message with so many people.

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We had a lot of people visit who already knew about Drivechain, and we also had a lot of

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newcomers who have been watching the space for a while.

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Some people have been visiting the conference for years and watching Paul speak about Drivechain.

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It was a delight to hear their thoughts and reflections about how the topic has evolved

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over the years.

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Welcome to the stage, Ingmar.

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Hello.

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I was actually going to ask, how was the reception in Miami?

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Have you seen opinions change on this?

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Maybe from the Bitcoin Core Devs crowd?

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That's a great question.

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Well, Bitcoin Core Devs, yes, there's a more favorable attitude than there used to

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be.

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I would point to, for example, Mike Tidwell has been a longtime supporter of Drivechain,

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and he's a Bitcoin Core Dev.

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He's had pull requests accepted by Bitcoin Core, I think two of them.

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Anyone who's had a pull request accepted by Bitcoin Core, I think, is a Bitcoin Core Dev

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by definition.

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Of course, the term more often refers to the top 20 people or so who have been involved

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in Bitcoin.

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For example, it's been many years since Peter Todd last contributed to the code, but he

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comes to mind as one person people would refer to in that way.

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There are some vocal supporters who are Bitcoin Core Devs, and then there's supporters like

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Adam Back, who I don't think has ever contributed to the code of Bitcoin Core per se, although

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of course he contributed before Bitcoin was ever created with his invention of HashCash,

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which Satoshi credited him for by name in the white paper.

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I think that we'll find out what the Bitcoin Core Devs think when the pull request is submitted

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for Drivechain.

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Luke Dashjr. has been retained by LayerTwo Labs to rebase the code, and hopefully it'll

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be done in a matter of months, and then there'll be a pull request, and then there can be review

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of it publicly on GitHub.

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So we're excited to see that evolve.

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I think this is something which has never been done before, which is the submission

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of a pull request for Drivechain.

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So that's exciting.

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If you go to drivechain.info forward slash friends, if you go to that website, drivechain.info

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forward slash friends, you'll see my collection of all the latest statements by notable Bitcoiners

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who support Drivechain, as well as a few statements by people who aren't that notable, but I just

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included them anyway because I liked what they said.

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So we have about 60 people listed there, and it's an exciting list, many big names.

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So Drivechain has notable support.

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There are a few detractors who are vocal.

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Peter Todd is probably the biggest one, and it'll be interesting to see how the community

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evolves on this issue.

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Supertestnet was here last time we spoke in Twitter Spaces.

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He had a great conversation with Paul.

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You can look at the LayerTwo Labs Twitter feed, and you'll see that last Thursday we had a

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conversation for about two and a half hours.

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Supertestnet is a Drivechain supporter and recently became even more famous when he did

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some sort of special transaction that was disruptive within the Ordinal space, I think.

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He's built various technology and software related to sidechains, and it's always great

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to have him with us.

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The reason why I'm talking about him, though, is that he mentioned that it's unlikely that

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Drivechain would come to Bitcoin, and perhaps he's right.

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Another Drivechain supporter who thinks it's unlikely is Eric Wall.

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So in the most recent episode where Eric Wall appeared on WhatBitcoinDid, so probably one

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of the last recent episodes, Eric conveyed that he supports Drivechain, but that the

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idea is dead.

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So what he means there is that it's been around for a while, and the inner circles

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of Bitcoin thinkers aren't in favor of it.

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So there you have it.

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You have Eric Wall and Supertestnet, two Drivechain supporters who think it's unlikely.

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So it's a sobering assessment, because to answer your question, like, where do we stand?

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I think if you were to ask Eric Wall or Supertestnet, as they've said, they would say that it's

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unlikely.

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It's either unlikely or very unlikely that we'll get Drivechain on Bitcoin.

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So what we're doing here is we're trying to change that around and have a more optimistic

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and ambitious approach for this project, trying to get it past the finish line, into the end

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zone, get it on Bitcoin, and then there will be great success that would flow from it.

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There would be a lot of value that would flow to Bitcoin through these sidechains.

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The sidechains could have hundreds of billions of dollars of value, and all of that value

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would accrue to Bitcoin.

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So for example, with the Thunder sidechain, this large block sidechain of Bitcoin, if

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it were $100 billion in value, that would mean that Bitcoin's price would be boosted

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by $100 billion of demand, because all of the demand for the Thunder sidechain translates

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to demand for Bitcoin because of the two-way peg.

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The only way to create tokens on the sidechain for Thunder is to lock Bitcoin in a hashrate

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escrow on mainchain.

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So all of the demand for the synthetic Bitcoin on the Thunder sidechain would boost the value

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of Bitcoin.

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I think that number go up is one of the correct and compelling selling points of Drivechain.

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It has the potential to increase Bitcoin's value a lot.

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Really there's no limit.

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The entire value of all altcoins is the amount of value that Drivechain could potentially

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bring to Bitcoin.

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In other words, Bitcoin would expand and swallow up all of the altcoin technology, users, and

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value, and fees.

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So Bitcoin would be the overwhelmingly dominant presence in crypto, unlike today where it's

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a fraction of the total value of all cryptocurrency because of the proliferation of all these

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altcoins.

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And the reason why they're proliferating is that there has been year after year where

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Bitcoin had no way to internalize the value in a peer-to-peer technology of altcoins.

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So someone built Zcash and Monero partly because there's no way to build those protocols

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on Bitcoin peer-to-peer, none.

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So right now with Bitcoin, there's sort of like this, as Paul Sztorc would describe,

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an attitude that the consumer is not to be put on a pedestal.

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He said, you know, the Bitcoin is one way and people should just like, they have to

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like it or not.

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And that's not the right attitude.

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We want to have like a pro-consumer attitude.

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Give the consumer whatever he wants.

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If he wants small blocks, Drivechain offers that on mainchain.

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If he wants large blocks, Drivechain offers that on the sidechain.

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If he wants risky advanced technology for privacy, Drivechain offers that on the Zcash

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sidechain called Zside.

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So with Drivechain, the goal is make everything optional.

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Make everything possible on Bitcoin.

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Have a sidechain for every new kind of technology.

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And that way, no one is turned away from Bitcoin.

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Everyone can come to Bitcoin and get what they want.

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Almost without exception.

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I appreciate the answer.

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Thanks a lot.

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Thanks for the question.

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It's a great question.

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I mean, no one really knows the answer.

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Where do we stand?

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No one really knows because things could change on dime, right?

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Like suppose in a couple of months, the hot topic in crypto isn't ordinals and high fees

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on Bitcoin.

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Suppose like the flippening makes a resurgence as a threat.

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And instead of Ethereum being 40% of Bitcoin, the market cap like it is today, roughly,

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suppose it reaches an all time high of 75%.

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That would create a new discussion.

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So the discussion around Drivechain has evolved over the years.

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In my understanding, it's, you know, when the fees are very high on Bitcoin, then the

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discussion around Drivechain can focus on scaling, how Drivechain facilitates scaling

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for Bitcoin through large block sidechains, Thunder.

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And that's, and while the fees have been high lately, I've been, you know, putting out on

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the LayerTwo Labs Twitter, you know, links to the Thunder GitHub so people can see what

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this sidechain would be all about.

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A sidechain which would only be enabled through adoption of Drivechain.

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You get this large block, one gigabyte block size sidechain.

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But when the fees are low, the conversation around Drivechain can also focus on merged

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mining and how merged mining can fix Bitcoin's security budget problem.

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So whether the fees are high, and we're talking about scaling, or the fees are low, and we're

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talking about the security budget, Drivechain helps both of those.

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Both of those problems are helped by Drivechain.

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The need for peer-to-peer scaling, in other words, scaling that isn't trusted, that isn't

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custodial, that's important.

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We need this large block scaling sidechain.

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As Adam Back has tweeted multiple times in recent months that we need a large block scaling

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sidechain to facilitate the onboarding of billions of people rapidly to Bitcoin.

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There isn't enough block space to have the whole world open lightning channels.

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You have to have a large block sidechain enabling a layer on Bitcoin that's cheaper

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and has higher throughput.

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And then when the fees are low, which they usually are, it's appropriate to talk about

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how Drivechain helps bring in more fees for multiple blockchains fixing the security budget.

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But I think, I think that both of those topics are a little bit complicated.

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For the average Bitcoiner who is holding Bitcoin in a simple way, or, you know, maybe their

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friend is handling it for them, or they're using Coinbase, for a lot of Bitcoiners, the

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idea that Bitcoin needs a way to scale peer-to-peer, non-custodially, it's a little bit complicated.

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And therefore, not everyone understands what we're talking about when we talk about the

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benefits of a large block sidechain.

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In fact, Paul Sztorc has said that he often, when asked what's the point of Drivechain,

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uses the large block sidechain proposal as a way of identifying who knows what they're

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talking about.

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Because so many people are triggered by the idea of a large block sidechain because they

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think large blocks are evil and there's no point to them.

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But actually, large blocks are very good, but only on a second layer, not on the base

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layer.

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Because if it's on the base layer, it's a mandatory block size increase for everyone.

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Whereas if it's in an optional venue, such as a sidechain, where absolutely no one ever

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has to use the sidechain, it's completely optional.

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Therefore, it doesn't harm Bitcoin mainchain.

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It creates an optional thing that people can opt into and then if they do, it brings

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value to Bitcoin, fees and value.

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So boosting Bitcoin's price and boosting Bitcoin's fee revenue for miners.

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So some people understand that and some people don't.

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And then even harder to understand is the security budget.

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Most Bitcoiners don't really know what this is all about.

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And making matters worse, some of the respected Bitcoiners out there like Pierre Richard say that the security budget concept is bogus.

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He tweeted this just a few days ago.

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He tweeted that we don't need high fees unless there's an attack going on and that if people pay high fees when there's no attack, it's wasteful.

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So there's people out there who are saying the opposite, the opposite of what drivechainers say, unfortunately.

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So we would argue that this actually is harming Bitcoin understanding, that it's diminishing people's understanding of Bitcoin to tell them that we don't need high fees.

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And by the way, you don't even have to be a drivechainer to understand that high fees are important and that the security budget is important.

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Look, look to, for example, Gregory Maxwell, one of the more famous Bitcoiners who isn't a drivechain supporter.

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Last time I checked, he wrote in the past that it's very good when Bitcoin has high fees because that shows that we'll potentially have enough fee revenue to pay for security after

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the subsidy is gone.

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So he laid out explicitly an acknowledgement of the role of high fees, just as Satoshi did.

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Satoshi wrote in August of 2010 in the thread on BitDNS that collecting fees from multiple blockchains increases total strength of the network.

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So Satoshi got it, Greg Maxwell get it, got it, and drivechainers all get it.

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We need high fees.

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Well, most drivechainers get it, that we need high fees to increase security, making the cost of becoming a hostile 51 percent miner prohibitively expensive for the nation states and terrorists who might want to do harm to Bitcoin.

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And that Rashard is wrong to suggest that we can start paying higher fees only after the attack begins.

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So those are two ways that we can talk about drivechain, that the need for noncustodial scaling with large blocks and then the need for collecting high fees from many blockchains through merged mining to increase the cost of a hostile

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attack in order to defend Bitcoin.

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So those are two ways we can talk about drivechain.

256
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But I'm still answering your question.

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I'm trying to.

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It's a great question.

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The thing that we've never really seen, at least I haven't in my one or two years of being a drivechain enthusiast, we have never really seen a sustained moment where it looked like the flippening was coming.

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And if that were to occur, if we were to make, for example, if Ethereum were to make an all time high against Bitcoin in terms of market cap or exchange rate, then I think that would prompt a new and perhaps most compelling line of reasoning and reckoning regarding drivechain.

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Because what drivechain does is not just fix the security budget and it's not just enable on-chain scaling with low, with very low fees and high throughput.

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Drivechain is something much more fundamental and broader in nature.

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And it all boils down ultimately to making Bitcoin the number one and really the only layer one for the whole world.

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So in the end, the flippening or the way that drivechain is an anti-flippening upgrade is important and I would say more important than the security budget and the on-chain scaling.

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So I think that one way we could see drivechain adoption in the future is if the flippening were to get closer, which I think it will because of the lack of drivechain, and then maybe that would prompt a realization within the community that something is going on that's not good.

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Bitcoin in its current form isn't sufficiently optimized to internalize the value of innovation outside of its main chain.

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So what Bitcoin needs is a way of internalizing innovation that occurs on altcoins.

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And the way to do that is to have sidechains.

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So whenever there's a good altcoin that's created, like Monero or Zcash, it's important that Bitcoin be able to copy that software into a sidechain so that Bitcoiners can, without selling their Bitcoin, use that technology.

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That is exactly what drivechain is all about.

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Whenever there's a good altcoin, Bitcoin will be able to copy that open source code into a Bitcoin sidechain and then Bitcoiners can send their Bitcoin into that sidechain and use that technology without ever selling their Bitcoin.

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And all of the fees that they generate on the sidechains are paid to Bitcoin mainchain.

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And the miners don't even have to run the node of the sidechain thanks to blind merge mining.

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The miners can run the node only if they feel like it.

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They might make a little bit more money depending on whether there's nev on the sidechain, but there is not going to be the obligation to run the sidechain node.

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And those who don't will still receive more fees than the fees that they would have received if Bitcoin didn't have those sidechains.

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For example, right now, over half of Bitcoin's hash rate is merged mining RSK.

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Did you have a question?

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Please chime in.

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Yeah, I was just wondering about the price of Bitcoin versus Ethereum being like the uniting motivator, the uniting last resort motivator to the price of Bitcoin versus Ethereum.

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You know, I guess augment Bitcoin to compete.

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I wonder what it says that like, just the price of Bitcoin being like the number one motivator, not like the grand scheme of like Bitcoin being able to do anything and can be like a sandbox for any kind of experiment.

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Like that doesn't seem to be the highest priority, but like, you know, once the price of Bitcoin comes into question, then that would probably be like the universal wake up call to every Bitcoiner of every kind of belief or school of thought.

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It'll be a wake up call because one of the things that drivechain advocates feel is that drivechain is perhaps essential to the survival of Bitcoin.

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So if someone thinks that Bitcoin can't ever fail, and if that person thinks that every altcoin is from the moment it was created until the present day, nothing like nothing's good about those altcoins.

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If someone thinks that if someone thinks that altcoins are inherently unproductive and inherently wasteful and inherently of zero intrinsic value, if they think that, then they're never going to understand drivechain.

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So part of the way that a person understands the value of drivechain is understanding that Bitcoin needs something like this.

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Bitcoin needs a way to internalize innovation that's occurring, internalize the value of innovation that's occurring outside of its main blockchain.

289
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So we have to have these other blockchains attached to Bitcoin where the native token of those other blockchains is Bitcoin from the main chain.

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So the whole essence of drivechain is we're preserving the monetary policy of Bitcoin while massively expanding the technological features of Bitcoin.

291
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So as Adam Back has tweeted, it's innovation maximalism, altcoin seniorage minimalism.

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We're trying to defeat the altcoins, erase their raison d'etre, erase the reason for having altcoins.

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Like as long as Bitcoin doesn't have a sidechain that's peer to peer where you can do Zcash technology transactions, as long as that's the case, then there's a reason for people to buy Zcash.

294
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Same thing with Ethereum and all the rest.

295
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Until Bitcoin can copy this technology from altcoins, all their technology into peer to peer sidechains, until that's part of Bitcoin, the altcoins have a reason for being.

296
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So if the flipping gets closer, people will start to wonder what's going on, what's wrong, why is this happening?

297
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When I was in Miami recently for the conference, I was on the beach at one point with one of the well-known critics of drivechain and we talked one-on-one and I asked him about the flippening and he said that'll never happen.

298
00:30:00,109 --> 00:30:18,908
So I think that a lot of the drivechain critics are guilty of this error where they think that flippening can't ever happen and that's why they feel no motivation to think more carefully and completely about drivechain.

299
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Because they think, well, what's really the point of this BIP that's all about taking the technology of altcoins?

300
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Because what's the reason to do that when the altcoins are just silly anyway?

301
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They don't take altcoins seriously.

302
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The most serious competitor to Bitcoin, however, is Ethereum.

303
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And there's a lot of effort going on in that realm to boost the value of Ethereum.

304
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Lots of people are working on Ethereum, trying to look at all the different ideas out there and optimize that blockchain and try to make it accrue value.

305
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And they're targeting Bitcoin's narratives of monetary scarcity and they're targeting the differences between Bitcoin and Ethereum, such as how Ethereum has more extensibility.

306
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You can build protocols on it for privacy or scaling, whereas on Bitcoin, all of the sidechains are federated.

307
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So there's a 15-party multisig federation controlling liquid and controlling Rootstock.

308
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And those are great projects, but they're not fully peer-to-peer in the way that Bitcoin is peer-to-peer.

309
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So if the flippity gets closer, then some people will have to come to terms with reality.

310
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They'll have to see, OK, why is this happening?

311
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What's wrong?

312
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Maybe something needs to change.

313
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And some of them are on record saying the flippity can never occur.

314
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So I don't think any drive-chainers have made that mistake, because the whole point of drivechain is that we need this.

315
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It hasn't happened yet.

316
00:31:58,669 --> 00:32:01,789
So, yeah, the flippity would be a big deal.

317
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And it would definitely, without a doubt, definitely be favorable in terms of getting people to understand how drivechain can make Bitcoin stronger.

318
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So we're not hoping for the flippity, but it would be helpful if it does occur.

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And it will occur because it will probably occur because Bitcoin hasn't had a way to internalize all of the valuable innovation that's going on outside of Bitcoin's main chain.

320
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So it needs a way to absorb those technologies, absorb those good ideas.

321
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If I may comment, I did write something about this.

322
00:32:48,669 --> 00:32:52,429
It was a theory posed by Edan Iago.

323
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He called it Satoshi's paradox.

324
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And the summary of it is that if anyone can make another Bitcoin that can surpass the value of Bitcoin, then no one can.

325
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If Ethereum flips Bitcoin next week, that shows that there is no number one chain.

326
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The number one chain can be easily fallible.

327
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And then maybe a couple of weeks later, Cosmos will flip Ethereum, and then a couple of days after that, Odell will flip Cosmos, and then all these chains kind of topple because there is no trade-off.

328
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There is no champion of these chains that can compete against the dollar or gold or some of the leading world reserve assets.

329
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So it's kind of like we need a champion's digital asset.

330
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And if Bitcoin can't stand against Ethereum, then what's going to stand against gold?

331
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That was kind of Satoshi's paradox.

332
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Welcome.

333
00:34:04,109 --> 00:34:11,869
I think a lot of people take the view that no one wants there to be a large turnover in the number one coin.

334
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Like something is the number one coin today, but something else is the number one coin tomorrow.

335
00:34:17,069 --> 00:34:24,989
That's annoying, so therefore the flippening can't happen because people don't like annoying things.

336
00:34:24,989 --> 00:34:28,828
And there's a lot of merit to that argument, I think, but not enough.

337
00:34:28,828 --> 00:34:36,189
Because all it is is that it means that whoever wants to do the flippening just has a few more problems to solve.

338
00:34:36,189 --> 00:34:46,109
Like one is that they just have to say, well, we plan on flippening BTC today, but we don't plan on anyone flippening us ever again in the future.

339
00:34:46,669 --> 00:34:51,708
Or they can do something where they say, yes, like a Bitcoin Cash type of thing.

340
00:34:51,708 --> 00:34:57,388
If they were, you know, maybe much smarter, they would have maybe had something like it going like this.

341
00:34:57,388 --> 00:35:00,669
That said something like they did try to say, like, we're the real Bitcoin.

342
00:35:00,669 --> 00:35:06,828
But the hard fork argument is something like, yes, we will flip in this coin.

343
00:35:06,828 --> 00:35:13,309
I mean, so they hoped we will flip in this coin, but we.

344
00:35:13,309 --> 00:35:18,508
It doesn't inconvenience the end user at all because it's a hard fork, so you have the same amount of coins.

345
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So even though, yes, this is annoying, the annoyance is minimized.

346
00:35:23,468 --> 00:35:29,549
And so, yeah, I think a lot of that is that is there's certainly there's a lot of things that are certainly true,

347
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which is that people don't want there to be a high turnover in the number one coin, which gives the number one coin a lot of extra staying power.

348
00:35:37,229 --> 00:35:42,268
It's also true that a lot of these coins are short term deliberately.

349
00:35:42,268 --> 00:35:44,908
They they like a Solana or something.

350
00:35:44,908 --> 00:35:48,429
They give the founders give themselves a huge percentage.

351
00:35:48,429 --> 00:35:59,388
It's run like a company, like a startup, and then it's a flash in the pan and it does well for a short amount of time and then it does badly.

352
00:35:59,388 --> 00:36:06,708
And then so those like quick, like easy come, easy go, you know.

353
00:36:06,708 --> 00:36:16,429
But I don't think it's really the case that you're absolutely doomed just because the number I think it's true that the number one BTC has a lot of staying power.

354
00:36:16,429 --> 00:36:22,069
And there's no there is no there's nothing challenging it at all, like really at the moment.

355
00:36:22,069 --> 00:36:32,828
But that is partly why BTC is so slow and is so content with stasis and does not doesn't prioritize innovation.

356
00:36:32,828 --> 00:36:44,348
It's because the competitors aren't good. This makes everyone complacent for an overconfident.

357
00:36:44,348 --> 00:36:49,388
Eden has made some great statements about drivechain.

358
00:36:49,388 --> 00:37:00,508
But what you quoted in Gamar, what you said as like Eden's paradox, I think, is actually attributable to how thinny.

359
00:37:00,549 --> 00:37:09,309
How thin he wrote in 2011 that any successor replacement of the Bitcoin blockchain will forever undermine the credibility of any successor.

360
00:37:11,588 --> 00:37:15,748
Or any successful replacement would credibly undermine any successor.

361
00:37:15,748 --> 00:37:19,709
So, yeah, that's an important articulation of that idea.

362
00:37:20,709 --> 00:37:30,108
But it's, of course, wrong that it's just wrong to think that Bitcoin can never be flipped because then a precedent would exist where.

363
00:37:31,549 --> 00:37:38,429
Exactly, all they have to do, that's what I was trying to say, is that all they have to do is keep that in mind when they flip in BTC.

364
00:37:38,469 --> 00:37:42,628
They have to say, OK, listen, we know that we don't want endless flippenings.

365
00:37:43,228 --> 00:37:46,908
So that's that's all they have to do is just keep that in mind, whoever whoever it would be.

366
00:37:47,108 --> 00:37:49,868
Yeah, exactly.

367
00:37:50,469 --> 00:37:53,349
It's just a it's an unfortunate confusion.

368
00:37:53,349 --> 00:38:02,349
Confusion. It's like a metaphysics of crypto blockchains where people think, well, the first one has to be the best one forever.

369
00:38:02,908 --> 00:38:12,429
Otherwise, if it ever loses, then there'll be just this rapid succession forever of things constantly changing and no one ever winning.

370
00:38:12,709 --> 00:38:23,628
Like the fact is, everything is in competition all the time and there's absolutely no guarantee that the first blockchain will always be the biggest and best.

371
00:38:24,028 --> 00:38:25,189
There's no guarantee of that.

372
00:38:25,709 --> 00:38:27,908
All of these projects are constantly evolving.

373
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There are changes made to Bitcoin frequently.

374
00:38:30,669 --> 00:38:36,469
You can look at the list of changes that are made to Bitcoin Core and there have been soft forks.

375
00:38:36,628 --> 00:38:42,228
Bitcoin has itself been hard forked by Satoshi, you know, at least once or twice.

376
00:38:42,709 --> 00:38:45,908
And so what Bitcoin is, is changing.

377
00:38:45,949 --> 00:38:47,388
These other blockchains are changing.

378
00:38:47,789 --> 00:38:54,189
So therefore their attributes and features are changing and therefore their value accrual rates can change.

379
00:38:54,669 --> 00:38:59,908
And eventually one could be bigger than the other and it would lose status while the other one gains.

380
00:39:00,508 --> 00:39:03,268
And it's important that we.

381
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We think about how costly it would be to Bitcoin and to the prospect of global Bitcoinization, if Bitcoin were to lose the market cap crown, it would be damaging to Bitcoin's credibility, narratives and momentum.

382
00:39:19,108 --> 00:39:31,349
And people would say correctly that that is the beginning of Bitcoin potentially becoming a smaller and irrelevant libertarian movement, just like gold.

383
00:39:31,628 --> 00:39:42,709
So if Bitcoin were to be flipped, it would perhaps be the beginning of Bitcoin being exactly in the worst possible sense, digital gold, like digital gold bugs.

384
00:39:43,868 --> 00:39:44,589
It wouldn't be good.

385
00:39:45,028 --> 00:39:49,429
So this there needs to be a renaissance in Bitcoin thinking in favor of drivechain.

386
00:39:49,469 --> 00:40:01,628
We need to get away from this Austrian economics, safety and Amos style way of thinking where Bitcoin is all about the monetary unit and not about the software.

387
00:40:02,469 --> 00:40:08,789
We need to have a more software focused view of Bitcoin, not a view of Bitcoin as digital gold.

388
00:40:10,297 --> 00:40:37,297
Because it turns out that the reality is that only about half of the value of all of all of the future potential growth of blockchain, only about half of it is money and the other half is all these other kinds of interesting and important things that you can do on blockchain, such as, you know, money that's more scalable, money that's more private or smart contracts, prediction markets, DNS.

389
00:40:38,297 --> 00:40:44,297
In fact, Satoshi himself countenanced DNS on blockchain in the BitDNS thread.

390
00:40:44,297 --> 00:40:54,297
So anyone who thinks that Bitcoin has always just been about money, like that Parker Lewis essay, Bitcoin, not blockchain, it's in that article.

391
00:40:54,297 --> 00:41:02,297
He never even acknowledges that Satoshi said that you could have DNS on blockchain merged mine with Bitcoin and that it would be good.

392
00:41:03,297 --> 00:41:06,297
It would be good for Bitcoin because it would increase Bitcoin's fees.

393
00:41:07,297 --> 00:41:14,297
So from the very beginning of Bitcoin, there has been talk about the opportunity to have more than just money on blockchain.

394
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And to the extent that the Bitcoin community decides that it will only be for money and not the other things, then Bitcoin will eventually probably be flipped by a blockchain that has a broader mandate for extensibility.

395
00:41:30,297 --> 00:41:43,297
So, yeah, the flipping would be a threat to Bitcoin in terms of its network effects, and it would be the result of the non adoption of drivechain, we would argue.

396
00:41:51,297 --> 00:41:58,297
Right now, at this moment, it doesn't appear to be like a hot topic because Ethereum is only like 40 percent of Bitcoin's market cap.

397
00:42:01,297 --> 00:42:06,297
It was about a year ago when it was like higher than that, I think.

398
00:42:06,297 --> 00:42:25,297
But in the wake of the recent like bank runs and economic turmoil, Bitcoin caught a bid and a narrative of, you know, digital gold.

399
00:42:26,297 --> 00:42:31,297
People were going to Bitcoin, taking their money out of Silicon Valley Bank and buying Bitcoin, I suppose.

400
00:42:32,297 --> 00:42:37,297
So it saw strength relative to Ethereum in this moment.

401
00:42:48,297 --> 00:42:51,297
Yeah, I think I think we're saying similar things.

402
00:42:52,297 --> 00:42:53,297
And, yeah, I appreciate that.

403
00:42:54,297 --> 00:42:55,297
I have to get back to work.

404
00:42:56,297 --> 00:42:57,297
I appreciate you having me on.

405
00:42:58,297 --> 00:42:59,297
Thanks for the questions.

406
00:43:00,297 --> 00:43:03,297
Everyone's welcome to come on up to the stage and chat.

407
00:43:04,297 --> 00:43:05,297
This is Drivechain Twitter Spaces.

408
00:43:06,297 --> 00:43:07,297
We meet every Monday and Friday.

409
00:43:08,297 --> 00:43:11,297
Talk about Bitcoin improvement proposal 300 and 301.

410
00:43:28,297 --> 00:43:34,297
On the most recent episode of Citadel Dispatch, Adam Back was interviewed with Jack Mollers.

411
00:43:35,297 --> 00:43:47,297
And later today, from the LayerTwo Labs Twitter handle, we'll be tweeting some quotes about Drivechain from that excellent interview that Dr.

412
00:43:48,297 --> 00:43:50,297
Back did on Citadel Dispatch.

413
00:43:50,297 --> 00:43:57,297
You can engage with Drivechain a number of ways.

414
00:43:58,297 --> 00:44:03,297
Check out the Drivechain GitHub page, which is the LayerTwo Labs GitHub.

415
00:44:04,297 --> 00:44:05,297
We post the link often in our tweets.

416
00:44:06,297 --> 00:44:10,297
If you're a coder or if you're curious to learn more about that realm, that's where you want to be.

417
00:44:11,297 --> 00:44:12,297
Read the Drivechain bips.

418
00:44:13,297 --> 00:44:16,297
And there's also lots of information in our Telegram group, Drivechain Talk.

419
00:44:17,297 --> 00:44:18,297
We have over 700 members there.

420
00:44:19,297 --> 00:44:25,297
We also are on Reddit, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and elsewhere.

421
00:44:26,297 --> 00:44:28,297
So you can follow us on any platform.

422
00:44:34,297 --> 00:44:37,297
Come on up to the stage with your questions or comments if you'd like.

423
00:44:41,297 --> 00:44:46,297
We have the Drivechain designer, Paul Sztorc, here on stage.

424
00:44:48,297 --> 00:45:03,297
Paul, how was your experience at the conference speaking?

425
00:45:04,297 --> 00:45:10,297
Did you enjoy your two appearances, one on the mining stage and one on the open source stage?

426
00:45:15,297 --> 00:45:16,297
I did, yeah. It was fun.

427
00:45:17,297 --> 00:45:23,297
I think that in general, though, the conference is a little...

428
00:45:24,297 --> 00:45:28,297
I don't know. I got the impression that there was not...

429
00:45:29,297 --> 00:45:32,297
They always try to prioritize news and announcements.

430
00:45:34,297 --> 00:45:38,297
We had Edward Snowden revealing that he bought the server.

431
00:45:39,297 --> 00:45:42,297
In the first conference, we had Edward Snowden's exclusive interview.

432
00:45:43,297 --> 00:45:45,297
He revealed he bought all the servers that hosted those files.

433
00:45:46,297 --> 00:45:47,297
We bought that with Bitcoin.

434
00:45:48,297 --> 00:45:52,297
We had a conversation with Ross Albright.

435
00:45:53,297 --> 00:45:55,297
We had the initial El Salvador announcement.

436
00:45:56,297 --> 00:45:57,297
We had all these big announcements.

437
00:45:58,297 --> 00:46:02,297
It does seem like there's not as much novelty this year.

438
00:46:03,297 --> 00:46:04,297
I thought we had by far the best booth.

439
00:46:05,297 --> 00:46:07,297
Our booth was pretty cool.

440
00:46:08,297 --> 00:46:12,297
But I think in general, it is a little bit...

441
00:46:13,297 --> 00:46:14,297
I think they have to kind of...

442
00:46:15,297 --> 00:46:19,297
I wonder what they'll come up with next year in the Nashville one.

443
00:46:20,297 --> 00:46:24,297
Because I wonder what they will try to prioritize.

444
00:46:25,297 --> 00:46:27,297
They try to get...

445
00:46:28,297 --> 00:46:31,297
I don't know if this is making any sense.

446
00:46:32,297 --> 00:46:33,297
I've been to every single one.

447
00:46:34,297 --> 00:46:39,297
I think I've actually spoken at every single Bitcoin event, Bitcoin conference.

448
00:46:39,297 --> 00:46:43,297
Like the Bitcoin 2019, 2020, whatever.

449
00:46:44,297 --> 00:46:48,297
And I think it had a lot of upward momentum.

450
00:46:49,297 --> 00:46:50,297
And then this year was like a down momentum year.

451
00:46:51,297 --> 00:46:52,297
So I think they will...

452
00:46:53,297 --> 00:46:58,297
I wonder about what they will try to do or say this year.

453
00:46:59,297 --> 00:47:00,297
I don't know.

454
00:47:01,297 --> 00:47:02,297
Did anyone who went...

455
00:47:03,297 --> 00:47:04,297
Did they hear something?

456
00:47:04,297 --> 00:47:09,297
A great announcement that they were really amped up about?

457
00:47:10,297 --> 00:47:12,297
Or did they enjoy just hanging out with other Bitcoiners?

458
00:47:13,297 --> 00:47:18,297
I would be interested to know what it was like from someone in the audience's point of view.

459
00:47:26,297 --> 00:47:29,297
Everyone should feel free to come on up if you'd like.

460
00:47:30,297 --> 00:47:33,297
Raise your hand if you were at the Bitcoin conference or if you observed it.

461
00:47:34,297 --> 00:47:36,297
You can come on up and chat about it.

462
00:47:37,297 --> 00:47:40,297
There were no nation state announcements I think this year.

463
00:47:41,297 --> 00:47:47,297
That's what they like to do is announce that a nation state has anointed Bitcoin.

464
00:47:48,297 --> 00:47:49,297
Well.

465
00:48:02,297 --> 00:48:04,297
Ah, we have a request for speaker.

466
00:48:05,297 --> 00:48:06,297
Fuzzy Bear.

467
00:48:07,297 --> 00:48:08,297
Welcome back.

468
00:48:09,297 --> 00:48:11,297
Thanks for organizing this and making yourselves available.

469
00:48:12,297 --> 00:48:16,297
Sorry that I haven't been keeping up too much with the developments of LayerTwo Labs.

470
00:48:17,297 --> 00:48:22,297
But from an outside perspective, I'm curious what the short term, say within the next 12 months,

471
00:48:23,297 --> 00:48:30,297
short term like technical goals of LayerTwo Labs is as a company and some of the commercial goals of LayerTwo Labs.

472
00:48:30,297 --> 00:48:31,297
This may be old hat.

473
00:48:32,297 --> 00:48:33,297
So I'm sorry if it's repeated.

474
00:48:34,297 --> 00:48:35,297
You don't have to answer it.

475
00:48:36,297 --> 00:48:37,297
But yeah, just what are you like?

476
00:48:38,297 --> 00:48:39,297
What are you looking to do in the commercial sector?

477
00:48:40,297 --> 00:48:41,297
Maybe nothing.

478
00:48:41,297 --> 00:48:43,297
And what are you looking to do in the technical sector?

479
00:48:44,297 --> 00:48:45,297
Do you have any partners?

480
00:48:46,297 --> 00:48:47,297
Is there any feature you want to push out?

481
00:48:48,297 --> 00:48:49,297
Is there some.

482
00:48:49,297 --> 00:48:50,297
Yeah, I don't know.

483
00:48:51,297 --> 00:48:53,297
Some outstanding issues that a lot of people are waiting for.

484
00:48:54,297 --> 00:48:57,297
Just what are what are the goals of LayerTwo Labs over the next 12 months?

485
00:48:57,297 --> 00:48:58,297
Let me know if I can clarify.

486
00:48:59,297 --> 00:49:00,297
Thank you.

487
00:49:01,297 --> 00:49:05,297
I think over the next really over the next one month, to be honest with you,

488
00:49:06,297 --> 00:49:13,297
we hope to have have shipped a wide variety of sidechains on the test net, which include.

489
00:49:14,297 --> 00:49:18,297
I mean, I don't know if this can be done by the end of June, but we're hoping for it should be.

490
00:49:19,297 --> 00:49:21,297
There should be a Namecoin sidechain, which will be huge.

491
00:49:22,297 --> 00:49:24,297
I mean, people don't really Namecoin in prediction markets.

492
00:49:24,297 --> 00:49:34,297
So the two like long shot sidechains where if they succeed, they will just transform life on this planet for everyone.

493
00:49:35,297 --> 00:49:37,297
And it's huge, absolutely enormous.

494
00:49:38,297 --> 00:49:39,297
But people don't really understand them.

495
00:49:40,297 --> 00:49:50,297
So the commercial goals are primarily we have a wide variety of like commercialization, monetization ideas.

496
00:49:50,297 --> 00:49:59,297
But to rest on those two ideas, which have enormous like multibillion dollar payoff.

497
00:50:00,297 --> 00:50:05,297
And so we hope to have both of those shipped in June.

498
00:50:06,297 --> 00:50:12,297
And in fact, we already have a preliminary version of the Namecoin sidechain already out that lets you register names and stuff.

499
00:50:13,297 --> 00:50:15,297
But it's on test net, so it's constantly reset.

500
00:50:16,297 --> 00:50:17,297
So you can't really own a name.

501
00:50:17,297 --> 00:50:25,297
But you can at least see what the software would do if BIP300 were activated or if some altcoin ran with it or something.

502
00:50:26,297 --> 00:50:27,297
So those are the two.

503
00:50:28,297 --> 00:50:31,297
And then we also hope to have like a large block, a high performance scaling sidechain.

504
00:50:33,297 --> 00:50:36,297
We already have a version of our template that has just a higher block size.

505
00:50:37,297 --> 00:50:40,297
But we hope to actually have like a very, very high performance version of that.

506
00:50:41,297 --> 00:50:44,297
We're going to do a contest with that.

507
00:50:44,297 --> 00:50:52,297
I still want to do it, but actually we just in-house, we just made so much progress on it that maybe I kind of deprioritized it slightly.

508
00:50:53,297 --> 00:50:54,297
So we hope to have that.

509
00:50:55,297 --> 00:50:59,297
We hope to have sidechains.

510
00:51:00,297 --> 00:51:10,297
We have like an NFT sidechain that is like just it's basically a UTXO model, but like, you know, whatever, ERC20, BRC20, NFT, whatever you want to call it.

511
00:51:11,297 --> 00:51:14,297
But it's just the same UTXO model as Bitcoin.

512
00:51:15,297 --> 00:51:16,297
So you can put the assets like in a channel.

513
00:51:17,297 --> 00:51:20,297
So in that way, it competes with with Taro even.

514
00:51:21,297 --> 00:51:23,297
And you can put them in a multi-signature output or whatever.

515
00:51:24,297 --> 00:51:25,297
You can use Bitcoin script.

516
00:51:26,297 --> 00:51:30,297
We also plan to have a version, a sidechain that is just the latest version of Bitcoin Core.

517
00:51:31,297 --> 00:51:42,297
With stuff like CTV in it and BIP-118 and OpWalt and stuff so that people can actually just play with that and see what that's like.

518
00:51:43,297 --> 00:51:44,297
Jerry Paul, what is that?

519
00:51:45,297 --> 00:51:47,297
CTV and blah, blah, blah, BIP.

520
00:51:48,297 --> 00:51:49,297
Give me all the info, please.

521
00:51:50,297 --> 00:51:52,297
CTV is the Jeremy Rubin's Check Template Verify.

522
00:51:53,297 --> 00:51:57,297
And it also enables that thing Ark that Barack presented.

523
00:51:57,297 --> 00:52:05,297
So these are like new soft forks for Bitcoin that will take 10,000 years to be added to Bitcoin Core because it's so slow.

524
00:52:06,297 --> 00:52:08,297
But on the sidechain, we can just add them immediately.

525
00:52:10,297 --> 00:52:12,297
So that would be interesting, I think.

526
00:52:16,297 --> 00:52:21,297
We also plan to have a copy of SIA, which is like a Filecoin thing.

527
00:52:22,297 --> 00:52:32,297
We actually have a copy of Filecoin, but Filecoin, I think actually the numbers are, Filecoin is not as real as it appears to be.

528
00:52:33,297 --> 00:52:36,297
So SIA seems more legit and it's fast enough.

529
00:52:37,297 --> 00:52:40,297
The latency is very low, so you can stream video and stuff.

530
00:52:41,297 --> 00:52:46,297
So SIA is kind of like a replacement for the Internet, honestly, the World Wide Web, because it just serves files.

531
00:52:47,297 --> 00:52:51,297
You host files and you rent your storage disk storage space and your bandwidth out.

532
00:52:52,297 --> 00:52:56,297
And so in addition to that, we have clones of the latest version of Zcash and Ethereum.

533
00:52:57,297 --> 00:52:58,297
So then like those are just, we already have those.

534
00:52:59,297 --> 00:53:00,297
We've had those for months.

535
00:53:01,297 --> 00:53:02,297
So that's big.

536
00:53:07,297 --> 00:53:14,297
The goal of LayerTwo Labs as a product is pretty clear to me as a user because I get the security model of Bitcoin.

537
00:53:15,297 --> 00:53:21,297
But then all of the features that everyone's been working on in these disparate chains and environments over the past five years.

538
00:53:22,297 --> 00:53:31,297
But, and I think you're sympathetic to this, there's like a lack of recognition or a lack of adoption for BIP300 and BIP301.

539
00:53:32,297 --> 00:53:33,297
Some of that might just be implementation.

540
00:53:34,297 --> 00:53:36,297
There's stuff to be built and once things are built, people will come.

541
00:53:37,297 --> 00:53:41,297
But what is your vision as the spearheader for this?

542
00:53:42,297 --> 00:53:48,297
And I guess CEO of LayerTwo Labs, what is your vision for bringing this to market on a large scale?

543
00:53:49,297 --> 00:53:50,297
What do you see as the major hindrances?

544
00:53:51,297 --> 00:53:57,297
Why is something so obvious to me not used or not hyped?

545
00:53:58,297 --> 00:54:01,297
Why is it the purview of a very small subset of people?

546
00:54:02,297 --> 00:54:04,297
Is it just the technical aspect?

547
00:54:04,297 --> 00:54:05,297
I don't think that's it.

548
00:54:06,297 --> 00:54:07,297
Is it the marketing?

549
00:54:08,297 --> 00:54:09,297
You know, we lack marketing skills.

550
00:54:10,297 --> 00:54:11,297
What is it?

551
00:54:12,297 --> 00:54:13,297
Sorry if this is, and it might be larger than I think.

552
00:54:14,297 --> 00:54:15,297
Yeah, go ahead.

553
00:54:16,297 --> 00:54:17,297
Well, there's a wide variety of things.

554
00:54:18,297 --> 00:54:22,297
One is, I mean, probably we should hire like a PR firm or something and maybe we'll do that.

555
00:54:23,297 --> 00:54:26,297
You know, we should like have maybe be more serious about marketing.

556
00:54:27,297 --> 00:54:28,297
But really, there's a lot of weird stuff happened.

557
00:54:28,297 --> 00:54:38,297
So like one, one thing is that the recently this narrative has taken over, which is like the safe Dean Saylor narrative that Bitcoin success is inevitable.

558
00:54:39,297 --> 00:54:41,297
And as a result, you see how that makes it look like.

559
00:54:42,297 --> 00:54:44,297
We don't need this because we don't need anything.

560
00:54:45,297 --> 00:54:48,297
Because it'll already be a $300 trillion asset just by doing nothing.

561
00:54:48,297 --> 00:54:59,297
So the other thing was SegWit2x happened, which made people cause this block size war.

562
00:55:00,297 --> 00:55:04,297
And the winning side was the side that resisted change from outside.

563
00:55:05,297 --> 00:55:10,297
And as a result, this has trained everyone to think of resisting change as the good thing.

564
00:55:11,297 --> 00:55:13,297
That's how you rise on the totem pole in Bitcoin.

565
00:55:14,297 --> 00:55:15,297
So that's a thing.

566
00:55:15,297 --> 00:55:18,297
There's lots of, there's really a lot of bizarre reasons.

567
00:55:19,297 --> 00:55:34,297
So another one is that the, like, in a way, as the altcoins have gotten more useful, the Bitcoiner response has become a kind of like a sour grapes where we say we never wanted that anyway.

568
00:55:35,297 --> 00:55:38,297
And so in the past, it was a little easier because there was nothing good.

569
00:55:39,297 --> 00:55:43,297
But now that there are some good altcoins, such as the modern Zcash.

570
00:55:44,297 --> 00:55:46,297
Which is different from old Zcash.

571
00:55:47,297 --> 00:55:50,297
And certainly modern Ethereum is way different from 2015 Ethereum.

572
00:55:51,297 --> 00:55:56,297
But as those have gotten better, people have decided more and more double down on toxicity.

573
00:55:57,297 --> 00:55:58,297
There's another, there's many things.

574
00:55:59,297 --> 00:56:06,297
So like one thing is that the success of this project sort of makes other projects, you know, look worse by comparison.

575
00:56:06,297 --> 00:56:12,297
Most notably like a Blockstream or even Lightning Labs or something that kind of look different.

576
00:56:13,297 --> 00:56:22,297
Because everyone's been sold this idea that lightning was the only thing we need to make Bitcoin conquer the planet, which is very widely believed.

577
00:56:23,297 --> 00:56:28,297
A lot of people just believe in whatever, any kind of like stock to flow inevitability argument.

578
00:56:29,297 --> 00:56:30,297
That's another thing.

579
00:56:30,297 --> 00:56:35,297
On the technical side, this idea is very difficult for people to endorse.

580
00:56:36,297 --> 00:56:41,297
Because usually in Bitcoin, people are trained to be paranoid about losing the user's coins.

581
00:56:42,297 --> 00:56:43,297
It's like the worst thing.

582
00:56:44,297 --> 00:56:45,297
So it's kind of like they're the FDA.

583
00:56:46,297 --> 00:56:49,297
And they're like if they let anything through and someone has a bad experience, then they get blamed.

584
00:56:49,297 --> 00:57:03,297
But someone in a reviewer on github.com slash Bitcoin slash Bitcoin, they don't get anything if they, it doesn't cost them anything to delay the feature.

585
00:57:04,297 --> 00:57:06,297
So like no one's being punished by the fact that the feature is delayed.

586
00:57:07,297 --> 00:57:12,297
Because it's not like someone is going to launch a viable altcoin like anytime soon.

587
00:57:13,297 --> 00:57:15,297
Isn't there a cost, like a liquidity cost?

588
00:57:16,297 --> 00:57:18,297
Like all the energy and momentum is going to other places.

589
00:57:19,297 --> 00:57:20,297
That's a cost, right?

590
00:57:21,297 --> 00:57:28,297
Yes. Well, I think the other thing is people are, I think I could see it very easy for someone to suck all the energy out of the room.

591
00:57:29,297 --> 00:57:34,297
So like another thing that happened with SegWit2x was it started this, what you might call like a hatocracy or the Twitterocracy or something.

592
00:57:35,297 --> 00:57:40,297
Where it's like the governance of Bitcoin is based on widespread consensus for many people.

593
00:57:41,297 --> 00:57:42,297
But this is actually a very bad thing.

594
00:57:42,297 --> 00:57:49,297
I mean, there is this place, Tammany Hall in America, where there was enormous political participation, but it was all corrupt.

595
00:57:50,297 --> 00:57:53,297
And it was like union bosses just, they got everyone to vote a certain way.

596
00:57:54,297 --> 00:57:56,297
You always voted for the person you were told to.

597
00:57:57,297 --> 00:58:00,297
And there was enormous participation, but it was, there was no political health.

598
00:58:01,297 --> 00:58:02,297
It was all corruption.

599
00:58:03,297 --> 00:58:06,297
And that is kind of a little more like what we have today, where we have these big figureheads.

600
00:58:07,297 --> 00:58:08,297
Everyone puts something in their Twitter.

601
00:58:09,297 --> 00:58:16,297
They don't, there's more participation, but there's not, people didn't really know anything about what SegWit or Taproot was.

602
00:58:17,297 --> 00:58:20,297
People admit years later that they didn't know SegWit was a block size increase.

603
00:58:21,297 --> 00:58:24,297
People still think that, people still don't even know.

604
00:58:25,297 --> 00:58:28,297
For example, people think Taproot is like a smart contract upgrade or something.

605
00:58:29,297 --> 00:58:33,297
Or they think that Taproot caused ordinals, which is not true at all.

606
00:58:33,297 --> 00:58:36,297
But even when people finally update their point of view, they're not right.

607
00:58:37,297 --> 00:58:38,297
So there's no expertise.

608
00:58:39,297 --> 00:58:41,297
So there's a wide variety of overlapping weird reasons.

609
00:58:42,297 --> 00:58:43,297
I can go on and on and on.

610
00:58:44,297 --> 00:58:51,297
To be honest with you, one of them is that in the technical community, not only are they prioritizing safety over innovation or over any kind of risk taking.

611
00:58:52,297 --> 00:58:57,297
And they prioritize consensus over any kind of like what you might call freedom.

612
00:58:58,297 --> 00:59:06,297
Like I should be free with my own money if I want to put it into a BIP300 script and a miner wants to mine the BIP300 script.

613
00:59:07,297 --> 00:59:12,297
Then why should some bureaucrat on the Bitcoin dev mailing list stop me or whatever.

614
00:59:13,297 --> 00:59:20,297
But in addition to prioritizing consensus, in addition to prioritizing extreme conservatism.

615
00:59:21,297 --> 00:59:26,297
The sidechain idea is basically saying, we can leave.

616
00:59:27,297 --> 00:59:29,297
Finally, we can leave Bitcoin Core software.

617
00:59:30,297 --> 00:59:37,297
Well, that idea is very alien to someone who if you work on Bitcoin Core software, you just think, well, if there's something wrong with it, why don't we just change it in Bitcoin Core and we'll make it great.

618
00:59:38,297 --> 00:59:39,297
We don't want people to leave.

619
00:59:40,297 --> 00:59:44,297
It's like as if we're in a restaurant and I come out, I go to the bathroom for like three months.

620
00:59:45,297 --> 00:59:48,297
And then I come out and I say, I've tunneled an escape hole in.

621
00:59:49,297 --> 00:59:50,297
We can finally get out of this restaurant.

622
00:59:51,297 --> 00:59:54,297
But if I'm saying that to the owner of the restaurant, they're going to be like, what?

623
00:59:54,297 --> 00:59:55,297
Like, what do you mean?

624
00:59:55,297 --> 00:59:56,297
Like, this isn't a prison.

625
00:59:56,297 --> 00:59:57,297
Anyone can leave whenever they want.

626
00:59:57,297 --> 00:59:58,297
That's kind of what they think.

627
00:59:58,297 --> 01:00:08,297
They don't realize, people don't realize that the network effects are a prison and they're actually immoral and they harm freedom and they harm innovation and they harm prosperity.

628
01:00:08,297 --> 01:00:11,297
And they have a bunch of people trapped here who don't really want to be here.

629
01:00:12,297 --> 01:00:16,297
But that's a very weird thing to say to the owner of wherever you're trying to escape.

630
01:00:16,297 --> 01:00:17,297
They just, you know, it's news to them.

631
01:00:19,177 --> 01:00:20,937
So there's tons and tons of reasons.

632
01:00:23,177 --> 01:00:32,617
One reason, there's even more reasons I can give you more is like the timing of this idea involved like miners, hash rate process, securing the sidechain.

633
01:00:33,457 --> 01:00:43,096
But they would happen to be announced at the same time that would happen to come out onto the world, like around the same time that there was the SegWit blockade in 2016, 2017.

634
01:00:43,096 --> 01:00:45,096
So that's just bad luck.

635
01:00:46,096 --> 01:00:58,097
Thanks, Paul. Another question, if I can sneak one in, you need for security reasons or no, you need for like in order to roll out BIP300, BIP301, you need miner adoption, right?

636
01:00:58,097 --> 01:01:00,097
They need to be able to support the sidechains.

637
01:01:01,097 --> 01:01:10,097
Have you on the ground, have you seen miners express interest in running like sidechain software, drivechains or no?

638
01:01:11,097 --> 01:01:15,097
How's it changing over time as like fees drop and everything?

639
01:01:15,097 --> 01:01:26,096
I think the thing is, the answer is yes, they are. But I think the bigger thing is that a miner ever since SegWit2x, the miners have been very, I would say, afraid of expressing any point of view on anything.

640
01:01:26,096 --> 01:01:35,096
And in fact, since ordinals, since inscriptions, now I think they still feel that way.

641
01:01:35,096 --> 01:01:42,096
But I think that with the right framing, that issue can be completely resolved.

642
01:01:42,096 --> 01:01:44,096
So I think that that one is an easy one.

643
01:01:44,096 --> 01:01:51,096
But I think that for the most part, they are afraid of expressing any opinion about anything.

644
01:01:51,096 --> 01:01:56,096
I got to be careful about promoting centralization or whatever, corruption.

645
01:01:56,096 --> 01:02:01,096
But have you been in contact with any large mining organizations or pools to increase adoption?

646
01:02:02,096 --> 01:02:16,096
Well, you know, I've never, every now and then I contact one or two, but they usually say what I've just told you, which is something like, we like it, but we don't want to like get involved with anything.

647
01:02:16,096 --> 01:02:21,096
But I think that, again, like I was saying, with a little more thought and a little more effort than it could be.

648
01:02:21,096 --> 01:02:26,096
I think that's a good next step for us to do, actually, because we have a lot of elite support.

649
01:02:26,096 --> 01:02:33,096
Believe it or not, if you go to like layer2labs.com slash friends, you see we actually have a lot of expert elite support.

650
01:02:33,096 --> 01:02:36,096
And we actually have a decent amount of grassroots support.

651
01:02:36,096 --> 01:02:38,096
And we have the miner support.

652
01:02:38,096 --> 01:02:48,096
So I just think if someone could ask them a question phrased a certain way, like if we just asked the miners to say like, well, if there were no objections, would you be interested in this?

653
01:02:48,096 --> 01:02:52,096
If there were no objections from the technical community, then we could probably get a lot of yeses.

654
01:02:52,096 --> 01:02:53,096
And then that would probably be.

655
01:02:54,096 --> 01:02:56,096
What does no objections from the technical community mean?

656
01:02:56,096 --> 01:02:57,096
That's a tall order, right?

657
01:02:58,096 --> 01:03:00,096
Well, I think, yeah, that's true.

658
01:03:00,096 --> 01:03:05,096
But I think like, I think what it's really saying is it's hanging on the word if.

659
01:03:05,096 --> 01:03:08,096
So it's just saying it's giving them an out.

660
01:03:08,096 --> 01:03:11,096
It's saying like, OK, we like it, yes.

661
01:03:11,096 --> 01:03:15,096
But we will we will abandon our yes.

662
01:03:15,096 --> 01:03:17,096
We'll retract the yes.

663
01:03:18,096 --> 01:03:22,096
If the technical community objects, so then it's like it's a conditional.

664
01:03:23,096 --> 01:03:28,096
I think it's dangerous to pose it that way, because you're always going to find someone prominent who object to something.

665
01:03:28,096 --> 01:03:29,096
And in my opinion, right.

666
01:03:29,096 --> 01:03:31,096
It's like it's a political thing.

667
01:03:31,096 --> 01:03:34,096
Probably. But I think the phrasing could be tweaked.

668
01:03:34,096 --> 01:03:41,096
But I think something like that, the goal is just to show other people that there's not a veto from the miners.

669
01:03:42,096 --> 01:03:45,096
The miners actually are, yes, but they're but they won't push it.

670
01:03:45,096 --> 01:03:50,096
So that I think that would be like the next step in that direction is my is my guess.

671
01:03:51,096 --> 01:04:00,096
Yeah, because I think in order in order to get people interested in using the software, there have to be instances of it in the real world.

672
01:04:01,096 --> 01:04:03,096
On which they can build new products.

673
01:04:03,096 --> 01:04:08,096
And it can't really exist in the real world as a secure product for Bitcoin unless miners are supporting drivechains.

674
01:04:08,096 --> 01:04:15,096
So it seems like one of the first steps is just to get miners running drivechains so that they can support sidechains.

675
01:04:15,096 --> 01:04:17,096
But that's just me. I don't know.

676
01:04:17,096 --> 01:04:21,096
I don't think about that. Maybe that's obvious or maybe you argue that.

677
01:04:21,096 --> 01:04:27,096
I don't know. Well, people don't really want to run any soft fork thing.

678
01:04:28,096 --> 01:04:33,096
That was like the SegWit2x thing. So I don't think they'll run any non core software anytime soon.

679
01:04:33,096 --> 01:04:37,096
I thought that maybe they will. I don't know. But I don't think they will.

680
01:04:37,096 --> 01:04:41,096
My understanding of drivechain and I have a limited understanding.

681
01:04:41,096 --> 01:04:50,096
So apologies, this is wrong. My understanding was you're not modifying Bitcoin Core or like you don't you're not obligated to run something different than Bitcoin Core.

682
01:04:50,096 --> 01:04:58,096
You're just adding like the regular people do not need to run new software, but the miners do to enforce.

683
01:04:58,096 --> 01:05:02,096
In fact, to enforce the software. Some people do.

684
01:05:02,096 --> 01:05:09,096
It's kind of like how you don't really have to upgrade your node to support Taproot or even SegWit if you don't really want to.

685
01:05:09,096 --> 01:05:11,096
But but but enough people have to.

686
01:05:14,096 --> 01:05:15,096
OK, OK.

687
01:05:20,096 --> 01:05:35,096
What's optional is the miners don't have to run the sidechain nodes.

688
01:05:38,096 --> 01:05:41,096
That's the critical. I think that's what I was thinking.

689
01:05:41,096 --> 01:05:45,096
Yeah, I knew there was like some opt out or some backwards compatibility thing, but I think that was it.

690
01:05:45,096 --> 01:05:49,096
And they're not obligated to run the sidechains, but if they want additional fees, they can opt in.

691
01:05:49,096 --> 01:05:51,096
I think that was it. Thank you.

692
01:05:51,096 --> 01:06:04,096
Did you understand Paul's earlier response to your question about why is it that there isn't an incentive that's clear to the core development community to do drivechain?

693
01:06:05,096 --> 01:06:07,096
Like they don't have a profit motive to do it.

694
01:06:07,096 --> 01:06:26,096
Not that they would only do things for profit, but it's just it's important to understand that the way that this open source software development occurs is that if if there's like a group of people who are deciding what to do, it's kind of bureaucratic.

695
01:06:26,096 --> 01:06:30,096
Categorically speaking, not not we're not criticizing them.

696
01:06:30,096 --> 01:06:35,096
We're just describing the fact that it isn't like they're running a restaurant.

697
01:06:35,096 --> 01:06:37,096
And the better they run the restaurant, the more profit they make.

698
01:06:37,096 --> 01:06:47,096
The only way that they would really lose personally is through the humiliation of like flippening, for example.

699
01:06:48,096 --> 01:06:50,096
So if they do a bad job, they don't merge drivechain in.

700
01:06:50,096 --> 01:07:00,096
And then Bitcoin as a result fails to accrue value, then it would eventually be flipped.

701
01:07:00,096 --> 01:07:04,096
And then that would expose the mistake that was made.

702
01:07:04,096 --> 01:07:11,096
Of course, some will argue when if the flipping does occur, they'll argue that, well, it doesn't mean anything.

703
01:07:12,096 --> 01:07:14,096
That's just that's just, you know.

704
01:07:15,096 --> 01:07:30,096
Ethereum getting more success for its scams, but the same people probably said in the past that a flipping can never occur because of Bitcoin's fundamental superiority and a person can't have it both ways.

705
01:07:30,096 --> 01:07:38,096
A person can't say Bitcoin will always be the winner because of fundamental economic properties like it was first and its best.

706
01:07:39,096 --> 01:07:46,096
And then. When it when the flipping does occur, then they'll say, well, it can be dismissed because of other reasons.

707
01:07:47,096 --> 01:07:49,096
So people have to be consistent.

708
01:07:51,096 --> 01:07:53,096
That was that was a good clarification.

709
01:07:53,096 --> 01:07:57,096
Yeah, Paul's explanation did make sense, but this is valuable to thanks.

710
01:08:01,096 --> 01:08:05,096
Everyone's welcome to come on up to the stage and ask questions.

711
01:08:08,096 --> 01:08:11,096
We have a very knowledgeable drive trainer here on stage.

712
01:08:13,096 --> 01:08:16,096
Since no one else has taken to the torch, Paul, what's a day in the life like?

713
01:08:16,096 --> 01:08:20,096
What are your preoccupations as you run LayerTwo Labs and you try to increase adoption?

714
01:08:21,096 --> 01:08:23,096
How are you spending your time and energy?

715
01:08:23,096 --> 01:08:24,096
How much software are you writing?

716
01:08:24,096 --> 01:08:26,096
None. Who are you talking to?

717
01:08:26,096 --> 01:08:31,096
None anymore. Unfortunately, I don't want to do any software writing, unfortunately.

718
01:08:31,096 --> 01:08:34,096
But now we have a lot of people who write software, which is good.

719
01:08:34,096 --> 01:08:37,096
So now we have we finally have a front end person.

720
01:08:38,096 --> 01:08:41,096
And so we have different back end people working on different sidechains.

721
01:08:41,096 --> 01:08:44,096
So we have. So all that is very exciting.

722
01:08:45,096 --> 01:08:49,096
We have the sidechains based on clones and then we have a sidechain based on the template.

723
01:08:49,096 --> 01:08:51,096
Which is like a blank. So you can either fork.

724
01:08:51,096 --> 01:08:55,096
There's like a library that we add to an altcoin full node and turn it into a sidechain.

725
01:08:55,096 --> 01:09:00,096
And then separately, there is like from scratch rewrite.

726
01:09:01,096 --> 01:09:05,096
We have like a C++ version, a rust version and a JavaScript version now.

727
01:09:06,096 --> 01:09:10,096
And then we have people cloning the different altcoins and just replicating the functionality.

728
01:09:10,096 --> 01:09:13,096
And then we have a lot of different people working on different sidechains.

729
01:09:14,096 --> 01:09:18,096
And then we have people cloning the different altcoins and just replicating the functionality.

730
01:09:18,096 --> 01:09:21,096
And so that's good. So we like that.

731
01:09:22,096 --> 01:09:23,096
We work on the front end.

732
01:09:26,096 --> 01:09:31,096
So I like that we work on like the Web site, like the whiteboard video, like.

733
01:09:32,096 --> 01:09:34,096
Stuff we have like boring legal stuff, too.

734
01:09:35,096 --> 01:09:41,096
So are you are you sitting in on dailies and like managing task assignments?

735
01:09:42,096 --> 01:09:44,096
And how large is the team and how has it grown over time?

736
01:09:44,096 --> 01:09:47,096
The team can be like in the open source sense, not even just working for LayerTwo Labs.

737
01:09:48,096 --> 01:09:51,096
Like how large has the ecosystem around you kind of grown?

738
01:09:52,096 --> 01:09:55,096
I have something like five tech people.

739
01:09:55,096 --> 01:09:56,096
I maybe have six now.

740
01:09:57,096 --> 01:10:00,096
Six and I have like so like six non-tech people.

741
01:10:00,096 --> 01:10:03,096
Also, so now it's it's getting kind of big.

742
01:10:03,096 --> 01:10:04,096
I mean, whatever.

743
01:10:05,096 --> 01:10:08,096
More managers or assistants.

744
01:10:09,096 --> 01:10:10,096
Maybe just stop it here.

745
01:10:11,096 --> 01:10:15,096
But I think the non-tech people, what are their responsibilities?

746
01:10:15,096 --> 01:10:25,096
So yeah, there's like a strategy, like marketing, like communications, stuff about like legal.

747
01:10:26,096 --> 01:10:37,096
Do you have a dedicated technical writer or someone who's writing for like public facing like adoption stuff like for miners or for people working on altcoin features that they can see?

748
01:10:38,096 --> 01:10:43,096
At one point we had people doing copy like for the for like older version of the Web site.

749
01:10:44,096 --> 01:10:45,096
Exactly.

750
01:10:45,096 --> 01:10:46,096
Yeah.

751
01:10:46,096 --> 01:10:48,096
Like sometimes we have chat TPT doing things.

752
01:10:49,096 --> 01:10:52,096
But no, we don't have like a good we have like some.

753
01:10:54,096 --> 01:10:56,096
It sort of depends on how you would frame it, I guess.

754
01:10:56,096 --> 01:10:57,096
But we have.

755
01:11:00,096 --> 01:11:01,096
But yeah, I don't think so.

756
01:11:01,096 --> 01:11:02,096
We need more.

757
01:11:05,096 --> 01:11:09,096
I would say that we do not have a technical writer.

758
01:11:10,096 --> 01:11:11,096
OK.

759
01:11:11,096 --> 01:11:12,096
All right.

760
01:11:12,096 --> 01:11:13,096
There's a vacuum.

761
01:11:13,096 --> 01:11:14,096
Thanks.

762
01:11:15,096 --> 01:11:21,096
If anyone's interested in sending a resume, you can send it to me at Henry at LayerTwo Labs dot com.

763
01:11:21,096 --> 01:11:25,096
That's H.E.N.R.Y. at LayerTwo Labs.

764
01:11:25,096 --> 01:11:28,096
All letters, no numbers dot com.

765
01:11:29,096 --> 01:11:35,096
And I'll make sure that Paul and the other founders get a chance to think about anyone's interest.

766
01:11:36,096 --> 01:11:37,096
Those are great questions.

767
01:11:38,096 --> 01:11:40,096
Paul, regarding the rebasement.

768
01:11:41,096 --> 01:11:43,096
Is that something which would be potentially.

769
01:11:44,096 --> 01:11:46,096
Would you describe it as something which has never happened before?

770
01:11:46,096 --> 01:11:51,096
Like never before has there been a pull request for drivechain code to Bitcoin Core?

771
01:11:52,096 --> 01:11:53,096
My opinion is different.

772
01:11:53,096 --> 01:11:54,096
Well, yeah, that's true.

773
01:11:54,096 --> 01:11:59,096
be potentially would you describe it something which has never happened before like

774
01:11:59,096 --> 01:12:04,456
never before has there been a pull request for drivechain code to Bitcoin core

775
01:12:04,929 --> 01:12:05,669
opinion is different.

776
01:12:05,829 --> 01:12:10,029
Well, yeah, that's true And that's an important thing that we're working on.

777
01:12:11,029 --> 01:12:15,122
I a lot of people say that Like

778
01:12:15,122 --> 01:12:24,402
Like, the sort of attitude in core is that unless something has, like, support on Twitter from 100% or 99% of the world,

779
01:12:25,762 --> 01:12:30,642
it will not, like, be merged, which is a weird point of view, of course.

780
01:12:30,642 --> 01:12:36,562
But I think other people say something like, until there's a pull request, there's no real call to action.

781
01:12:36,846 --> 01:12:41,866
for BIP300 other than giving it thumbs up because you don't see the details.

782
01:12:42,306 --> 01:12:48,266
It's like, oh, you agree to do a deal with someone, but you do need to see the

783
01:12:48,266 --> 01:12:50,226
actual paperwork, details, to actually sign.

784
01:12:52,106 --> 01:12:52,846
Paul, could you

785
01:12:52,941 --> 01:12:58,741
speak about whether drivechain could be achieved without BIP300 and

786
01:12:58,741 --> 01:13:04,701
301 such as Like this might be a kind of a technical question, which is great

787
01:13:04,701 --> 01:13:09,096
to ask you about like does Jeremy Rubens Bip Allow

788
01:13:09,096 --> 01:13:14,456
allow for Drivechain through kind of a roundabout way, or do other things that are currently

789
01:13:14,456 --> 01:13:20,256
in the realm of being potentially the next soft fork, do they allow for Drivechain in

790
01:13:20,256 --> 01:13:21,256
a roundabout way?

791
01:13:21,256 --> 01:13:29,336
I think people who ask that question don't really understand.

792
01:13:29,336 --> 01:13:34,737
The way Drivechain works, the way BIP300 works, or whatever, in contrast to an extension

793
01:13:34,737 --> 01:13:41,776
block proposed by Adam Back many years ago in 2014, is that BIP300 is like, everything

794
01:13:41,776 --> 01:13:48,336
is a miner courtesy, and then BIP300 puts a lot of heat on the miners and makes it very

795
01:13:48,336 --> 01:13:51,937
difficult for the miners to steal.

796
01:13:51,937 --> 01:13:55,937
Everything is a courtesy done by the miners, so they have total control over everything,

797
01:13:55,937 --> 01:14:01,256
but then we tighten the thumbscrews on the miners to make it very, very, very hard for

798
01:14:01,256 --> 01:14:04,537
them to misbehave.

799
01:14:04,537 --> 01:14:10,136
That's what BIP300 is designed to do, and lots of other things would kind of do that,

800
01:14:10,136 --> 01:14:13,896
but everyone seems to be missing the point that the point of BIP300 is actually to constrain

801
01:14:13,896 --> 01:14:16,016
the miners' behavior.

802
01:14:16,016 --> 01:14:21,716
Every dilution of that, it just makes it less effective, but yes, it's actually possible

803
01:14:21,716 --> 01:14:30,456
to do all of this today with no miner support, or today with no anything, but people don't

804
01:14:31,336 --> 01:14:38,937
really get what BIP300 is doing, I think, when they ask that, but it is true that there

805
01:14:38,937 --> 01:14:43,737
is no real need for BIP300 in the sense that miners can just soft fork in something like

806
01:14:43,737 --> 01:14:45,256
this whenever they want.

807
01:14:45,256 --> 01:14:49,177
They could have done it six months ago without telling anyone, and so there's no need to

808
01:14:49,177 --> 01:14:54,737
really go through the BIP process at all, and it's possible that some other BIP or some

809
01:14:54,737 --> 01:15:05,737
other combination of arrangements, even like a kind of agreements or something, will just

810
01:15:05,737 --> 01:15:09,817
replace whatever Drivechain does, but it'll be very, very inefficient use of block space

811
01:15:09,817 --> 01:15:17,497
and it won't work as well at all, or it will be too expressive, so like if there's someone

812
01:15:17,497 --> 01:15:21,576
writes a crazy script that can do lots and lots of things, or they achieve like some

813
01:15:21,576 --> 01:15:30,537
kind of, you know, reach like a Turing completeness or something, then it may be much, much worse

814
01:15:30,537 --> 01:15:39,456
because there may be individual contracts that aren't like easily comparable, or maybe

815
01:15:39,456 --> 01:15:46,297
they are too expressive and it is now impossible to censor a type of category of like interfering

816
01:15:46,297 --> 01:15:47,297
transaction.

817
01:15:47,297 --> 01:15:51,696
So it's probably like really confusing, but yeah, the answer is that all the objections

818
01:15:51,696 --> 01:15:59,256
to BIP300 is kind of nonsense, because it will eventually just, either it will, people

819
01:15:59,256 --> 01:16:04,297
just don't really get, even to this day, years later, they just don't really get what it's doing.

820
01:16:09,096 --> 01:16:11,297
That's like the only important thing to keep in mind.

821
01:16:11,297 --> 01:16:18,617
Understood. So this, this kind of line of discussion that has been, that sometimes pops

822
01:16:18,617 --> 01:16:23,617
up on Twitter, tweets, which is like, maybe Drivechain will be achieved through some other

823
01:16:23,617 --> 01:16:27,297
BIP, like, oh, XYZ gets us Drivechain.

824
01:16:27,297 --> 01:16:30,297
Yeah, that would be a bad thing.

825
01:16:30,297 --> 01:16:31,297
Right.

826
01:16:31,297 --> 01:16:35,977
But that just shows you why it's pointless to be against. If you're against it because

827
01:16:35,977 --> 01:16:41,537
you don't want people, you don't want it to happen, then that is an invalid reason

828
01:16:41,537 --> 01:16:42,537
because.

829
01:16:42,537 --> 01:16:48,576
Yeah, for example, for example, Adam Back, you know, frequently mentions he supports

830
01:16:48,576 --> 01:16:54,016
Drivechain. Sometimes he also mentions he likes the idea of simplicity, which would

831
01:16:54,016 --> 01:17:00,656
also, in his words, I think he said, you know, provide like a different path to the same

832
01:17:00,696 --> 01:17:04,016
objective that Drivechain is oriented towards.

833
01:17:05,016 --> 01:17:07,737
I guess he's referring to a peer-to-peer two-way peg.

834
01:17:11,096 --> 01:17:13,497
Well, what do you think about simplicity?

835
01:17:14,977 --> 01:17:16,256
It doesn't sound very simple.

836
01:17:22,456 --> 01:17:24,616
I see we have another request for a speaker.

837
01:17:30,656 --> 01:17:47,376
While they're connecting, please, please continue with any thoughts or questions, anyone.

838
01:18:00,656 --> 01:18:18,016
Welcome, Detroit XMR, one of our frequent speakers.

839
01:18:18,537 --> 01:18:21,337
Oh, hey, thanks for having me.

840
01:18:22,256 --> 01:18:25,817
This one's not very intelligent, quick and easy.

841
01:18:26,177 --> 01:18:27,256
I love this trend.

842
01:18:27,256 --> 01:18:35,656
I'm starting to see on Twitter with Ubi and some other people where bragging about not

843
01:18:35,656 --> 01:18:40,136
wanting things to change isn't as socially powerful.

844
01:18:40,217 --> 01:18:45,896
It's still a pretty huge majority consensus type thing, but it's nice seeing cracks in

845
01:18:45,896 --> 01:18:51,376
the wall when it comes to now on Twitter, you can kind of just tell someone to get out

846
01:18:51,376 --> 01:18:56,297
of the way. I've really enjoyed a couple of tweets I've seen lately of cool view.

847
01:18:57,337 --> 01:19:02,417
We got it from here, almost like when people say they don't want things to change, kind

848
01:19:02,417 --> 01:19:04,817
of acting like they're saying they want out almost.

849
01:19:05,417 --> 01:19:09,016
That's just been exciting. It's just hopeful to see maybe some cracks in the wall.

850
01:19:09,616 --> 01:19:10,656
Love these chats.

851
01:19:11,537 --> 01:19:12,736
Thanks for doing what you guys are doing.

852
01:19:16,616 --> 01:19:23,537
Great, thank you. Yes, the failure to innovate is a change and a risk.

853
01:19:23,577 --> 01:19:25,376
It's not good. So we.

854
01:19:26,656 --> 01:19:31,057
It would be great if really everything were all solved, I mean, all the privacy,

855
01:19:31,057 --> 01:19:35,136
scalability, extensibility, and there was no, you know, there was no one interested in

856
01:19:35,136 --> 01:19:41,016
inventing something new and we could all we were all somehow aware of that, then maybe

857
01:19:41,016 --> 01:19:45,256
it would be fine. And you could try out the TCP IP argument.

858
01:19:45,937 --> 01:19:50,177
But it's clearly the world we live in has many unanswered questions.

859
01:19:51,776 --> 01:19:55,537
About exactly what the protocol should be doing.

860
01:19:57,136 --> 01:19:59,097
I have a I have a question for you, Paul.

861
01:19:59,736 --> 01:20:07,057
OK, the the opt in nature of block sizes is easy to understand where we have small

862
01:20:07,057 --> 01:20:12,376
blocks on main chain and then potentially larger blocks on certain sidechains that

863
01:20:12,376 --> 01:20:13,496
people can opt in.

864
01:20:14,136 --> 01:20:15,537
And as you've explained.

865
01:20:15,847 --> 01:20:26,207
When someone's using a sidechain with a large block there, their level of decentralization would be the result of the sum of the block sizes.

866
01:20:26,207 --> 01:20:29,487
So on the main chain plus the large larger chain.

867
01:20:30,607 --> 01:20:36,967
They would get they would be experiencing decentralization from the sum of those two block sizes.

868
01:20:36,967 --> 01:20:50,087
But my question to you is, what if somebody prefers main chain small blocks, but also the privacy of the zSide sidechain and they don't want a block size increase?

869
01:20:50,847 --> 01:21:00,087
Then they want to use a blockchain which they can't opt into because they would have to do the block sizes of the zSide plus the main chain.

870
01:21:00,486 --> 01:21:07,326
So is it true that with drivechain, it isn't like you can get any particular feature set you might possibly want?

871
01:21:07,326 --> 01:21:18,727
Because what if you want not the larger blocks of any sidechain, but you want the in other words, suppose you're like a Z cacher where you want your base layer to be hyper private?

872
01:21:19,726 --> 01:21:28,126
They might argue, well, if the main chain isn't super private, then it's not exactly what we want.

873
01:21:28,126 --> 01:21:31,847
We want the base layer to be having maximum privacy.

874
01:21:32,287 --> 01:21:36,766
What are your what's your response to to that exact point that the main chain?

875
01:21:36,927 --> 01:21:37,927
I mean, I don't know.

876
01:21:38,247 --> 01:21:49,446
Like, you know, it's like unreasonable because you have a group of people and it's like what we want is the layer one to be the most minimally invasive layer.

877
01:21:49,486 --> 01:21:51,287
So we want layer one to have small blocks.

878
01:21:51,287 --> 01:21:54,366
We want layer one to be slow changing.

879
01:21:54,406 --> 01:21:58,126
We want it to be very conservative because that's the one that everyone has to have.

880
01:21:58,527 --> 01:22:05,527
So, I mean, it's kind of like if you said like in our house, we have 120 volt electricity.

881
01:22:05,527 --> 01:22:09,806
We all have the same plug, electrical outlet plug shape.

882
01:22:11,207 --> 01:22:20,166
And someone out there says, you know, even though everything has like a transformer, everything like, you know, whatever, computer, TV, whatever.

883
01:22:20,766 --> 01:22:23,086
And it changes the voltage to whatever is needed.

884
01:22:24,086 --> 01:22:28,967
But someone out there says, I want the voltage coming into my house to be different.

885
01:22:28,967 --> 01:22:30,407
And I want the plugs to be different.

886
01:22:31,527 --> 01:22:34,527
Well, you know, it's a cost, just a cost benefit analysis.

887
01:22:35,527 --> 01:22:36,047
You know what I mean?

888
01:22:36,047 --> 01:22:42,687
Like if they make it because there's plenty of people who don't want Zcash privacy on layer one because it ruins the auditability of the 21 million coin limit.

889
01:22:43,566 --> 01:22:48,166
So there's a way of getting most of the people most of what they want most of the time.

890
01:22:49,127 --> 01:22:53,166
Or there's a way of making it so that only one group of people can get what they want.

891
01:22:54,086 --> 01:22:55,607
Then that second way is worse.

892
01:22:56,687 --> 01:23:03,047
This is also why the layer one large cannot have large blocks, because you put small blocks on top of large blocks.

893
01:23:03,047 --> 01:23:07,527
That's a terrible decision because the small block people aren't getting what they want.

894
01:23:08,047 --> 01:23:10,806
But in the reverse, then both groups are getting what they want.

895
01:23:11,286 --> 01:23:14,566
Now, it's true. Some people might say, oh, I want I want layer one to change.

896
01:23:14,566 --> 01:23:17,286
But so, you know, then it's just whose ox gets gored.

897
01:23:17,407 --> 01:23:19,646
You know, like someone wants layer one to change like that.

898
01:23:20,206 --> 01:23:22,286
Someone wants layer one to change some other way.

899
01:23:22,286 --> 01:23:23,247
They wanted to go left.

900
01:23:23,247 --> 01:23:24,327
They wanted to go right.

901
01:23:24,767 --> 01:23:25,566
They wanted to go up.

902
01:23:25,566 --> 01:23:26,446
They wanted to go down.

903
01:23:27,166 --> 01:23:31,887
It's a incoherent, incoherent strategy.

904
01:23:33,566 --> 01:23:37,446
So that's the one thing that we know is a stupid decision.

905
01:23:48,286 --> 01:23:49,566
Well said.

906
01:23:52,047 --> 01:24:00,847
Well, could you please go into detail a little bit about how putting some of the privacy features from Zcash on layer one is outside the scope of the 300, right?

907
01:24:00,847 --> 01:24:01,887
So you can project it.

908
01:24:01,887 --> 01:24:09,327
But how that like inclusion of those features on layer one makes it hard to audit the 21 million Bitcoin limit, please.

909
01:24:11,047 --> 01:24:15,006
Well, on Zcash, they cannot audit their coin limit, so they don't know.

910
01:24:15,247 --> 01:24:24,847
It's possible to have an inflation bug that is undetected because the privacy makes it hard to know the amount transferred, whereas with Bitcoin, that's not possible.

911
01:24:25,206 --> 01:24:29,926
So it's a win-lose situation on layer one for Zcash level privacy.

912
01:24:31,407 --> 01:24:33,206
So the win-lose situation is not good.

913
01:24:33,527 --> 01:24:38,046
So we always want to try to maximize the number of win-win situations.

914
01:24:40,287 --> 01:24:43,967
Is that the same thing with Monero, the same sort of restriction?

915
01:24:45,247 --> 01:24:47,046
The privacy restricts how much you can know.

916
01:24:47,046 --> 01:24:48,127
That's a good question.

917
01:24:48,127 --> 01:24:52,287
I don't think so, because I think the ring signatures do not exactly work that way.

918
01:24:52,407 --> 01:24:55,926
There is like a number of decoys in each transaction, I think.

919
01:24:57,407 --> 01:24:58,926
But it's possible that it may.

920
01:24:59,326 --> 01:25:00,486
Monero is.

921
01:25:02,086 --> 01:25:02,847
That's a good question.

922
01:25:02,847 --> 01:25:03,287
I don't know.

923
01:25:03,326 --> 01:25:06,247
I don't actually can't guarantee the answer there.

924
01:25:06,247 --> 01:25:11,687
I think that Zcash is certain that the amount is always hidden when it's in the shielded pools.

925
01:25:12,687 --> 01:25:21,206
With Monero, I don't remember if it only hides who the sender and receiver is, like among a giant list, or if it also hides.

926
01:25:21,247 --> 01:25:22,926
I think they must have bulletproofs now.

927
01:25:22,967 --> 01:25:23,727
So I don't know.

928
01:25:23,967 --> 01:25:24,527
I don't actually know.

929
01:25:24,567 --> 01:25:25,127
I'm not familiar.

930
01:25:26,287 --> 01:25:26,806
No problem.

931
01:25:26,847 --> 01:25:27,247
Thank you.

932
01:25:35,326 --> 01:25:38,527
Everyone is welcome to come on up to the stage if you've been listening.

933
01:25:39,527 --> 01:25:42,407
Join us on stage to ask a question or share a comment.

934
01:25:43,926 --> 01:25:47,287
We meet every Monday and Friday to talk about Drivechain.

935
01:25:47,287 --> 01:26:14,847
Paul, what are your thoughts on the BitAssets sidechain and how it can meet the needs and desires of people who are doing these inscriptions and

936
01:26:14,847 --> 01:26:17,687
ordinals, NFT type activity?

937
01:26:17,687 --> 01:26:23,606
And do you feel that they'll ever be happy on a sidechain or is there something special?

938
01:26:23,606 --> 01:26:25,646
Yeah, there's actually different groups of people.

939
01:26:25,646 --> 01:26:28,206
So some people actually just want to do it.

940
01:26:28,447 --> 01:26:41,847
At this point, if you've lived so long and you don't know that people enjoy, you know, because we had Counterparty, we had Omni, we had MasterCoin, we had ColoredCoins, we

941
01:26:41,847 --> 01:26:47,007
had Ethereum, ICOs, ERC20, NFT.

942
01:26:48,287 --> 01:26:55,527
We have had a lot and now we have whatever, what do you want to call it, BRC20 or whatever you want to call it, inscriptions.

943
01:26:56,486 --> 01:27:04,007
So people like issuing their own assets and this is also what many clubs or corporations do.

944
01:27:04,046 --> 01:27:16,847
They say, we issue eight million shares, we control the supply and who gets them, and then we control what they're redeemed for, like an arcade issues a token, they sell tokens.

945
01:27:19,366 --> 01:27:23,527
That's a little more like a sidechain, but similar type of a thing.

946
01:27:24,287 --> 01:27:27,086
People sell tickets.

947
01:27:27,206 --> 01:27:29,007
So people like to do this thing.

948
01:27:29,046 --> 01:27:57,606
Those people would be happy on a sidechain because the sidechain can be set up with all kinds of special customized features to facilitate the trading, the liquidity, lists of stuff, figuring out who owns this asset, being able to, if you own it, set like a little thing, like a set, like a little description, like they have in a museum, like on loan from the Detroit XMR collection, blah, blah, blah.

949
01:27:57,646 --> 01:27:58,687
You can like set like a little thing.

950
01:27:58,886 --> 01:28:01,086
So those people will love the sidechain.

951
01:28:01,287 --> 01:28:19,687
A lot of the people doing the ordinals and inscriptions today are people like Eric Wall and Udi, and their primary aim is to break up all of the stupidity in the Bitcoin community today, which is the sidechains would also do just as a category.

952
01:28:19,806 --> 01:28:20,886
This is the fact that sidechain.

953
01:28:21,086 --> 01:28:25,287
So if we had sidechains, there would not be Bitcoin stupidity.

954
01:28:25,486 --> 01:28:30,486
And then there would be no need for Eric and Udi to do what they are doing.

955
01:28:30,687 --> 01:28:34,606
So that is why they are doing that, because there's no alternative for them.

956
01:28:34,806 --> 01:28:37,366
They have to have to stay and try to persuade people.

957
01:28:37,567 --> 01:28:39,727
So it's partly a persuasion technique.

958
01:28:39,926 --> 01:28:46,727
There's something else that people are now, again, as I predicted, this would happen like in whatever, 2016 or like a million years ago.

959
01:28:46,967 --> 01:28:54,646
But the block space itself is a new form of commodity in its own right, and it's a new form of media, in fact.

960
01:28:54,847 --> 01:29:05,206
And people are now realizing that you can use the blockchain to broadcast like global messages and get the word out on something.

961
01:29:05,407 --> 01:29:11,167
There's something, there's a much more efficient, many, much more efficient ways of doing this, like very efficient.

962
01:29:11,167 --> 01:29:26,927
And that will also go, I predict and have already coded something that I call CoinNews that will also pick up the slack on that, which is just

963
01:29:27,126 --> 01:29:36,487
something that displays if you if you outbid, if you pay a higher fee to the miners, you're just you get your messages like featured in like a little spot in the GUI.

964
01:29:36,686 --> 01:29:40,886
This is no soft fork, no anything, just cosmetic thing.

965
01:29:40,886 --> 01:29:48,927
But that's that's also that's another thing that people will love about Bitcoin to have an actual, more actual what they call, you know, fundamental value or an actual use value.

966
01:29:49,126 --> 01:29:56,367
Like there'd be something to actually do with the coin, which will be direct people's attention.

967
01:29:56,566 --> 01:30:00,847
So it'd be like advertising or it'll be media.

968
01:30:01,047 --> 01:30:10,246
So in that way, with all there would be none, none of this stuff, none of the problems associated with ordinals or inscriptions, none of those would happen

969
01:30:10,367 --> 01:30:15,167
if we had sidechains, because all that stuff would have already could already be in use.

970
01:30:15,367 --> 01:30:19,407
But you have to differentiate between the three different types of people who are doing that.

971
01:30:19,607 --> 01:30:23,326
Only one of the three actually is interested in.

972
01:30:23,527 --> 01:30:30,927
Digital asset like issuance, like issuing a board or whatever.

973
01:30:31,126 --> 01:30:37,807
Paul, what is your view generally on the subject of Bitcoin as distinct from blockchain?

974
01:30:37,886 --> 01:30:45,487
There is a narrative over the last few years that blockchain as an idea is is fraudulent and people should just focus on the Bitcoin.

975
01:30:45,686 --> 01:30:53,686
The thing with that is if you're around in 2016, you would know that it is like there was this horrible narrative of blockchain without Bitcoin.

976
01:30:53,886 --> 01:30:57,206
And it was basically the stupidest thing ever to exist.

977
01:30:57,407 --> 01:31:03,047
And there was just years and years of just absolute nonsense coming from literally every direction.

978
01:31:03,047 --> 01:31:11,326
Microsoft, IBM, whatever, the government, people, all kinds of random people were just emailing starting companies on this.

979
01:31:11,527 --> 01:31:13,807
We're going to put everything on the blockchain.

980
01:31:14,006 --> 01:31:17,326
John Seth wrote that fake essay about putting horse semen on the blockchain.

981
01:31:17,527 --> 01:31:23,766
That was like half real because it was it was edited from an essay about like provenance of art that was real.

982
01:31:23,967 --> 01:31:26,126
So it was like half real.

983
01:31:26,326 --> 01:31:27,446
The whole thing was all nonsense.

984
01:31:27,646 --> 01:31:32,407
So I think this is, again, a case where people have learned the old lesson.

985
01:31:32,566 --> 01:31:35,206
Blockchain without Bitcoin is a scam.

986
01:31:35,407 --> 01:31:40,006
But they don't realize that that lesson only applied to the people who are really,

987
01:31:40,006 --> 01:31:43,686
really, really stupid and didn't know anything in 2016 and they were brand new.

988
01:31:43,886 --> 01:31:48,367
It doesn't really apply to like Satoshi inventing Namecoin in 2010.

989
01:31:48,566 --> 01:31:51,847
Or it doesn't apply to,

990
01:31:52,047 --> 01:31:53,367
you know,

991
01:31:53,566 --> 01:31:58,686
ninety nine point nine nine percent of the blockchain use case stuff is garbage.

992
01:31:58,686 --> 01:32:03,607
But that doesn't mean that it's completely impossible to have

993
01:32:04,086 --> 01:32:07,566
useful stuff. And some of that stuff now exists.

994
01:32:07,766 --> 01:32:13,566
OK, maybe maybe what I'm going to do, though, this has been fun, but great.

995
01:32:13,766 --> 01:32:15,766
Thank you for being here.

996
01:32:16,086 --> 01:32:18,006
We'll continue on.

997
01:32:19,766 --> 01:32:21,326
All right.

998
01:32:21,847 --> 01:32:24,086
Let's continue with the questions and comments.

999
01:32:24,287 --> 01:32:26,527
It was great to have Paul here.

1000
01:32:26,727 --> 01:32:32,326
And hopefully he'll be back for another Drivechain Twitter Spaces on Friday.

1001
01:32:32,527 --> 01:32:36,086
Today is a holiday.

1002
01:32:39,407 --> 01:32:42,167
Happy Memorial Day, everyone.

1003
01:32:42,967 --> 01:32:45,886
Thanks to those who've served.

1004
01:32:47,607 --> 01:32:49,607
Or are serving.

1005
01:32:51,246 --> 01:32:55,246
I don't know if I can think of anyone who's like in the active military who has

1006
01:32:55,246 --> 01:32:58,047
written to me about drivechain, I do communicate with a lot of drive

1007
01:32:58,246 --> 01:33:03,766
chainers, I have been tweeting at Jason Lowery, Space Jason, our space cadet,

1008
01:33:03,967 --> 01:33:10,047
who is the leader of the Bitcoinization of the Space Force.

1009
01:33:10,246 --> 01:33:12,126
Maybe he'll become a drive chainer.

1010
01:33:12,326 --> 01:33:18,766
He has written a little bit from time to time about fees and subsidy.

1011
01:33:18,967 --> 01:33:23,607
So he does know that Bitcoin has what's called the Coinbase,

1012
01:33:23,646 --> 01:33:26,727
also referred to as the subsidy or the inflation.

1013
01:33:26,927 --> 01:33:28,967
And he's interested in hashing.

1014
01:33:29,167 --> 01:33:35,527
So he is a great candidate for grokking the security budget problem and how

1015
01:33:35,727 --> 01:33:38,727
merged mining is an important solution to it.

1016
01:33:38,927 --> 01:33:41,886
He once tweeted about this.

1017
01:33:42,086 --> 01:33:44,006
I'll read his tweet.

1018
01:33:44,326 --> 01:33:46,167
It's kind of sad.

1019
01:33:46,847 --> 01:33:53,126
So this is what Jason Lowery wrote on May 16, 2022, so almost exactly one year ago,

1020
01:33:53,326 --> 01:33:55,326
he tweeted.

1021
01:33:56,407 --> 01:34:00,006
In other words, the fees that Bitcoin users pay to their

1022
01:34:00,206 --> 01:34:03,607
defenders is buying exponentially more hash.

1023
01:34:03,807 --> 01:34:08,246
It's literally already true that hash is increasing despite exponentially

1024
01:34:08,446 --> 01:34:12,167
decreasing subsidies, comma, fees, dot, dot, dot.

1025
01:34:12,167 --> 01:34:14,407
And this is the unfortunate part.

1026
01:34:14,607 --> 01:34:17,126
I mean, that first tweet was just kind of like a mess of words.

1027
01:34:17,326 --> 01:34:19,847
But the second part is where he makes a mistake.

1028
01:34:20,047 --> 01:34:22,326
He wrote this on May 16, 2022.

1029
01:34:22,527 --> 01:34:25,206
You can find it on his Twitter, Jason P. Lowery.

1030
01:34:25,407 --> 01:34:30,886
He wrote, he wrote, and if for some reason it stops decreasing fast enough to make

1031
01:34:31,086 --> 01:34:35,566
Bitcoin hashing commercially profitable, then we will just defend Bitcoin the same

1032
01:34:35,766 --> 01:34:39,727
way we defend all physical property, dot, dot, dot, by using the same

1033
01:34:39,727 --> 01:34:44,126
way we defend all physical property, dot, dot, dot, by having governments pay

1034
01:34:44,326 --> 01:34:48,446
for Bitcoin hashing pools using taxes.

1035
01:34:49,847 --> 01:34:50,807
So there you go.

1036
01:34:51,006 --> 01:34:57,006
He's interested in the possibility of taxpayer funded Bitcoin mining,

1037
01:34:57,206 --> 01:35:01,047
which is a very bad idea because.

1038
01:35:01,246 --> 01:35:04,807
It's not right to use the government's money.

1039
01:35:05,686 --> 01:35:09,326
Without a very good justification, so as Bitcoiners, I think we are all

1040
01:35:09,527 --> 01:35:13,727
sympathetic to the idea of limited government and government that doesn't just

1041
01:35:13,927 --> 01:35:18,807
spend money on whatever, but instead using money only for, like,

1042
01:35:19,006 --> 01:35:23,886
national defense, police and other limited constitutionally lawful activities.

1043
01:35:24,086 --> 01:35:28,407
So we shouldn't deploy taxpayer money to Bitcoin mining.

1044
01:35:28,607 --> 01:35:33,206
Couldn't you make the argument that there'd be analogous to, you know,

1045
01:35:33,367 --> 01:35:39,566
there'd be analogous to guarding Fort Knox with National Guards,

1046
01:35:39,766 --> 01:35:42,527
right, if it becomes like a national security issue?

1047
01:35:42,727 --> 01:35:47,566
Right, miners provide national like they provide the security for the whole network.

1048
01:35:47,766 --> 01:35:52,367
So having revenue from taxpayers fund

1049
01:35:52,566 --> 01:35:55,407
that security may be a net benefit for everybody.

1050
01:35:55,607 --> 01:35:58,807
Just as a counterpoint, as devil's argument.

1051
01:35:59,807 --> 01:36:01,607
Well, I think the government should be

1052
01:36:01,807 --> 01:36:05,886
neutral as to which money is adopted by society.

1053
01:36:06,086 --> 01:36:10,047
So government shouldn't be against Bitcoin.

1054
01:36:10,246 --> 01:36:15,326
And if Bitcoin were to be so popular in society that it makes sense for the

1055
01:36:15,527 --> 01:36:20,446
government to exempt it from capital gains tax, then that would be great.

1056
01:36:20,646 --> 01:36:25,367
However, if the solution to the security budget.

1057
01:36:26,367 --> 01:36:32,167
Is to be taxpayer funded mining, then I think Bitcoin isn't going to make it

1058
01:36:32,367 --> 01:36:39,006
because the whole point of Bitcoin is that the government doesn't control it.

1059
01:36:39,206 --> 01:36:42,847
The whole point of Bitcoin is that it's not controlled by the government.

1060
01:36:43,047 --> 01:36:45,527
So if Bitcoin is going to be vulnerable

1061
01:36:45,727 --> 01:36:51,287
to hostile attackers unless the government protects it, that is.

1062
01:36:51,446 --> 01:36:57,367
Quite simply, the fox guarding the hen house.

1063
01:36:57,566 --> 01:36:58,807
Do you know what I mean?

1064
01:36:59,006 --> 01:37:00,006
I do, yeah.

1065
01:37:00,206 --> 01:37:04,727
In my head, if Bitcoin becomes like a national security concern for the United

1066
01:37:04,927 --> 01:37:09,446
States, for example, it may very well in the future be a national

1067
01:37:09,646 --> 01:37:13,766
security concern for a large number of countries which have

1068
01:37:13,967 --> 01:37:17,607
the opposite of competing interests, which are antagonistic to each other.

1069
01:37:17,607 --> 01:37:21,966
So like there wouldn't be

1070
01:37:22,167 --> 01:37:24,287
like a specific one, like there wouldn't be.

1071
01:37:24,486 --> 01:37:26,047
Let's say this.

1072
01:37:27,047 --> 01:37:28,846
There would be an obvious benefit for any

1073
01:37:29,047 --> 01:37:33,606
one country to remove or add funding to Bitcoin because the security of Bitcoin

1074
01:37:33,606 --> 01:37:36,126
generally is advantageous to everyone, does that make sense?

1075
01:37:36,327 --> 01:37:38,087
It's almost like a common good.

1076
01:37:38,287 --> 01:37:44,486
I get what you mean, which is this vague Jason Lowry idea that there's

1077
01:37:44,646 --> 01:37:50,567
like a game theoretic equilibrium where every country is using taxpayer money to

1078
01:37:50,766 --> 01:37:56,246
mine and that's what they're doing instead of maintaining a military.

1079
01:37:56,447 --> 01:37:57,447
That's his theory.

1080
01:37:57,646 --> 01:38:01,486
I haven't read his book, but I guess that's what it is.

1081
01:38:01,687 --> 01:38:06,087
I mean, we had some DMs, you know, and I asked him about the security budget.

1082
01:38:06,287 --> 01:38:11,407
He is in favor of taxes, as you can see from his public tweets.

1083
01:38:11,606 --> 01:38:16,087
Which is which his messages elsewhere resonated with.

1084
01:38:16,126 --> 01:38:17,927
In other words, he thinks that if there's

1085
01:38:18,126 --> 01:38:22,486
ever a problem where the fees aren't high enough, taxes are the solution.

1086
01:38:22,687 --> 01:38:24,087
He's wrong.

1087
01:38:24,287 --> 01:38:28,687
We can't rely on government funded programs to make Bitcoin work.

1088
01:38:28,886 --> 01:38:34,047
Bitcoin has to have a design which is going to

1089
01:38:34,246 --> 01:38:37,006
not rely on governments.

1090
01:38:37,207 --> 01:38:41,167
The whole point was to not have governments be in control.

1091
01:38:41,407 --> 01:38:42,886
And.

1092
01:38:43,087 --> 01:38:44,646
When you say that there's like a game

1093
01:38:44,846 --> 01:38:47,966
theoretic, well, you didn't say it, but if we think that there's a game

1094
01:38:48,167 --> 01:38:53,567
theoretic equilibrium where every country is mining with their volcano,

1095
01:38:53,766 --> 01:39:00,207
you know, and their tax revenue like El Salvador and others, if there's

1096
01:39:00,407 --> 01:39:06,966
if there's government supported Bitcoin, then I don't think that's a healthy,

1097
01:39:07,167 --> 01:39:12,287
long term vision for Bitcoinization, because a different blockchain that doesn't

1098
01:39:12,486 --> 01:39:20,006
rely on taxpayer funded support would accrue value.

1099
01:39:20,207 --> 01:39:22,047
So in principle, are you opposed to what

1100
01:39:22,047 --> 01:39:25,006
El Salvador is doing in mining Bitcoin using their volcanoes?

1101
01:39:25,207 --> 01:39:28,006
You don't see it as a positive development.

1102
01:39:28,207 --> 01:39:30,006
I'm OK with it.

1103
01:39:30,207 --> 01:39:31,287
They can do whatever they want.

1104
01:39:31,486 --> 01:39:35,006
I mean, everyone's free to use to do whatever they want.

1105
01:39:35,047 --> 01:39:39,047
If a group of people form a government, right, like if the country of like St.

1106
01:39:39,246 --> 01:39:43,966
Kitts and Nevis or Monaco or Lichtenstein or some tiny country or a large country

1107
01:39:44,167 --> 01:39:49,407
decides to spend their taxpayer money hashing.

1108
01:39:49,606 --> 01:39:52,486
Like they can do that, it probably is not going to be profitable,

1109
01:39:52,687 --> 01:39:56,567
so it's going to be wasteful, like they'll be doing it with it'll be

1110
01:39:56,766 --> 01:40:02,447
a negative value add economic phenomenon where they consume a million dollars a day

1111
01:40:02,447 --> 01:40:08,846
in electricity and machines and labor and they're producing like $800,000 a day

1112
01:40:09,047 --> 01:40:09,966
in revenue.

1113
01:40:10,686 --> 01:40:17,646
Because mining is extremely competitive and the government is very bad at doing things efficiently,

1114
01:40:17,646 --> 01:40:23,086
so they're going to do it inefficiently and it'll waste society's money. And if they think that

1115
01:40:23,086 --> 01:40:28,606
they're securing the network and that this is going to be part of Bitcoinization, it's like

1116
01:40:28,606 --> 01:40:37,245
the cart pushing the horse. Doesn't make any sense. Bitcoin is designed to be a peer to peer

1117
01:40:38,046 --> 01:40:46,206
libertarian movement, not one in which like a hegemonic and violent like organ. The government

1118
01:40:46,766 --> 01:40:56,285
is using taxpayer funded revenues from like its involuntary tax source, which is its citizenry.

1119
01:40:56,285 --> 01:41:02,526
They're forced to pay taxes that this trusted third party that's violent is going to be

1120
01:41:02,526 --> 01:41:07,886
supporting Bitcoin network. Doesn't make sense. It's not a good plan. The way to avoid this

1121
01:41:07,886 --> 01:41:12,926
completely is to have the transaction fees collected from every blockchain. That is part

1122
01:41:12,926 --> 01:41:18,446
of the drivechain vision is that as Satoshi wrote in 2010, every single blockchain in the world

1123
01:41:19,086 --> 01:41:23,645
would be merged mind with Bitcoin. That's what Satoshi wanted. He was right. The only thing he

1124
01:41:23,645 --> 01:41:30,925
didn't understand is that instead of merged mind altcoins, we want merged mind sidechains.

1125
01:41:31,806 --> 01:41:36,366
The main difference between a merged mind altcoin, which is what Satoshi was talking about

1126
01:41:36,366 --> 01:41:44,285
with BitDNS, is that the miners on Bitcoin's main chain are getting paid transaction fees from the

1127
01:41:44,285 --> 01:41:51,965
altcoin blockchain denominated in altcoin. And that's bad. It's not Bitcoin only. Whereas with

1128
01:41:51,965 --> 01:41:58,046
a sidechain with blind merged mining, you can have the miners paid the merged mind transaction

1129
01:41:58,046 --> 01:42:04,205
fees in Bitcoin and all demand for the native token on the sidechain accrues to Bitcoin

1130
01:42:04,205 --> 01:42:10,526
because of a two way peg. So instead of using an altcoin, we're using synthetic Bitcoin created

1131
01:42:10,526 --> 01:42:16,925
on the sidechain. So it's a much better design. I think Satoshi definitely would have loved it.

1132
01:42:16,925 --> 01:42:23,405
If he had known about it, he would have implemented it. It's an exciting improvement

1133
01:42:23,405 --> 01:42:27,326
and it has nothing to do with using taxes to secure the network.

1134
01:42:27,886 --> 01:42:32,205
This security budget problem is really important, so I'm glad that we're chatting about it.

1135
01:42:33,086 --> 01:42:37,005
Ultimately, it's one of the most dramatic events in all of crypto

1136
01:42:38,285 --> 01:42:45,086
that Bitcoin is marching towards this future where eventually there will only be

1137
01:42:46,285 --> 01:42:51,485
transaction fees. And because it's in the far future, people don't fully understand it

1138
01:42:51,485 --> 01:42:57,326
or they dismiss it because they figure, well, it's decades away by then. We'll either have one

1139
01:42:57,326 --> 01:43:05,726
or we'll either not have one. But that's not correct. That's actually an error because the

1140
01:43:05,726 --> 01:43:13,246
future is important for people's activities today. Economic actors are future oriented.

1141
01:43:14,125 --> 01:43:21,726
They're future oriented. So if Bitcoin has an uncertain long term transaction fee

1142
01:43:21,726 --> 01:43:26,606
reliant economic security model, that will factor into people's present decisions.

1143
01:43:28,205 --> 01:43:32,606
We can't, as Bitcoiners, say, well, that's a problem for the far future. Let's just ignore it

1144
01:43:32,606 --> 01:43:39,005
for now. And at the same time, talk about generational saving, generational wealth,

1145
01:43:39,005 --> 01:43:43,326
saving for one's grandkids, grandkids. So Bitcoiners on the one hand are saying,

1146
01:43:43,326 --> 01:43:47,886
let's save forever. Let's be long term oriented. Let's be low time preference.

1147
01:43:47,886 --> 01:43:55,246
And then the same time, the same people should not be saying, well, the security model is

1148
01:43:55,246 --> 01:44:00,606
transaction fee reliant and the fees aren't rising enough. But let's just worry about that when we

1149
01:44:00,606 --> 01:44:06,925
get to it. Let's cross that bridge in the future. And Jason Lowery's cop out, in my opinion,

1150
01:44:07,405 --> 01:44:13,886
to refer to taxes isn't a compelling answer to this question. And I think it'd be great if he

1151
01:44:14,606 --> 01:44:20,285
and Lynn Alden and other people who have commented on fees, but never on drivechain,

1152
01:44:20,285 --> 01:44:28,205
would study drivechain and then comment on it. Because the simple truth is that

1153
01:44:28,765 --> 01:44:35,006
there's like three things that can happen. Bitcoin continues in its current form

1154
01:44:35,566 --> 01:44:43,325
and the fees stay low, or we get a lot more fees from merged mining via drivechain, or

1155
01:44:45,165 --> 01:44:51,006
we embark on inflation, which we certainly do not want as drive chainers. But some people want it

1156
01:44:51,006 --> 01:44:58,445
like Peter Todd endorses inflation. So that would be just augmenting the issuance from the Coinbase

1157
01:44:59,406 --> 01:45:07,406
so that it just persists forever, maybe 1% per year forever. So that would eliminate one of

1158
01:45:07,406 --> 01:45:14,045
Bitcoin's most important narratives, which is absolute scarcity. It would disrupt the monetary

1159
01:45:14,045 --> 01:45:20,045
policy. It would open the door to debates forever about how high the inflation should be. And

1160
01:45:22,126 --> 01:45:25,725
the governments and the miners and others would like more inflation because they always like

1161
01:45:25,725 --> 01:45:31,885
more inflation because it's politically popular to talk about inflation because it devalues the

1162
01:45:31,885 --> 01:45:37,645
fixed debts of parties who are indebted. So it's popular politically to say, let's

1163
01:45:38,366 --> 01:45:42,925
debase the money. Anyone who owes money will then be able to pay it back with cheaper dollars.

1164
01:45:46,686 --> 01:45:51,325
But it's not productive. It doesn't create any wealth in society to have more units of money.

1165
01:45:52,286 --> 01:45:55,485
So it would be great if we just kept Bitcoin's absolute scarcity

1166
01:45:56,925 --> 01:46:03,006
and increase the fees through merged mining. Bitcoin's fees aren't nearly as high as they

1167
01:46:03,006 --> 01:46:08,605
were at the height of the Ordinals episode in the recent months. Let's check the fees.

1168
01:46:09,966 --> 01:46:13,806
It's a good exercise. Every time we have these Twitter spaces, let's teach people how to check

1169
01:46:14,126 --> 01:46:21,006
the fees. Let's do it now. You can go to glassnode.com or menpool.space. I personally

1170
01:46:21,006 --> 01:46:28,045
like blockchain.com. So let's run through it. Are you with me, Fuzzy Bear? Want to check it out

1171
01:46:28,045 --> 01:46:35,006
together? Yeah, I'm with you. Awesome. Blockchain.com. All right. You can follow

1172
01:46:35,006 --> 01:46:40,526
along. So we go to blockchain.com and then we go to at the top, click on Explorer

1173
01:46:41,485 --> 01:46:47,406
in the menu at the top. Blockchain.com, then Explorer, and then on the left, click on Charts.

1174
01:46:49,086 --> 01:46:52,925
You can do it on your phone. I'm doing it on a laptop. It's much easier on laptop.

1175
01:46:55,485 --> 01:46:59,806
And then once you've gotten to the Charts page, then you click on Mining Information.

1176
01:47:00,445 --> 01:47:08,765
That's Mining Information. You there? Yeah, I'm there. Cool. And then Total Transaction Fees.

1177
01:47:10,526 --> 01:47:18,846
Do you see that one? Total Transaction Fees, USD. Yeah, I see it. Okay. Total Transaction Fees,

1178
01:47:18,846 --> 01:47:25,325
USD. Now you might be wondering why USD? Why not BTC? Don't we love Bitcoin? Don't we hate the

1179
01:47:25,325 --> 01:47:33,885
dollar? Well, USD is the correct way to think about this because it is the unit of account

1180
01:47:33,885 --> 01:47:39,885
which is most stable over the short and medium term. And therefore we should use dollars to

1181
01:47:39,885 --> 01:47:45,086
refer to the real purchasing power rather than Bitcoin because Bitcoin is volatile.

1182
01:47:47,325 --> 01:47:49,806
So to get a sense of the real purchasing power

1183
01:47:50,605 --> 01:47:54,366
that the miners are receiving from fees, we have to look to this dollar chart.

1184
01:47:57,885 --> 01:48:02,846
Now, of course, this dollar chart is not inflation-adjusted. So it's not a perfect

1185
01:48:02,846 --> 01:48:08,205
picture of the real purchasing power. In fact, if we were to adjust for inflation and look at

1186
01:48:08,205 --> 01:48:15,645
the all-time chart, then an inflation-adjusted chart would look even worse in the sense of

1187
01:48:15,645 --> 01:48:24,045
not showing an upward trajectory of growth for the fees. In other words, the block space is not

1188
01:48:24,045 --> 01:48:29,246
appreciating. Those are the exact same thing. They're synonymous. And when we're talking about

1189
01:48:29,246 --> 01:48:33,966
the total transaction fee rate per unit of time, that is a synonym for the value of the block

1190
01:48:33,966 --> 01:48:39,325
space. If someone says Bitcoin's block space is getting more expensive, they are making a

1191
01:48:39,325 --> 01:48:47,165
statement which has identical meaning to if they had said the transaction fees paid per unit of

1192
01:48:47,165 --> 01:48:55,085
time in terms of real purchasing power is not growing. But it's reasonable to expect that

1193
01:48:55,085 --> 01:49:01,085
there'll be volatility in the value of block space over time because during different periods of time,

1194
01:49:01,085 --> 01:49:06,845
some people may want to do transactions in bursts. So I wouldn't expect necessarily to see

1195
01:49:07,566 --> 01:49:12,766
a linear increase in the value of the block space over time. And I don't know if what I'm seeing is

1196
01:49:12,766 --> 01:49:19,806
unhealthy or unexpected from the long-term limit when Bitcoin is, say, the global reserve currency

1197
01:49:19,806 --> 01:49:26,766
and people are using it all the time. I'm not sure. I don't know. But I do see that it's lower

1198
01:49:26,766 --> 01:49:30,925
than it used to be. I also see that it's higher than it used to be, depending on what used to be

1199
01:49:30,925 --> 01:49:40,766
you're talking about. Yeah. So from 2010 to 2016, it was like under $200,000 per day, as you can see

1200
01:49:40,766 --> 01:49:46,045
on the all-time chart. By the way, it's helpful, Fuzzy Bear, if you click on the words market price.

1201
01:49:46,045 --> 01:49:52,525
Do you see where it says market price USD? Yes. Yeah. Just click on there. And that removes the

1202
01:49:52,525 --> 01:49:56,686
price of Bitcoin from the chart. And now we're looking at a chart only of the blue line,

1203
01:49:56,686 --> 01:50:00,686
which is the total transaction fees. Do you see that? Yeah, I do.

1204
01:50:00,686 --> 01:50:05,886
Cool. So you can choose on the chart at the top one month or three years or all,

1205
01:50:06,605 --> 01:50:10,605
and you can cycle through these different time frames to get a sense of what's happening.

1206
01:50:11,165 --> 01:50:15,085
So we look at the all-time chart. We see that in 2017, in December,

1207
01:50:16,045 --> 01:50:21,646
there was a spike. And this was the highest time, the highest price for a Bitcoin transaction ever.

1208
01:50:22,605 --> 01:50:30,686
It was $50 per transaction on that day in December. And that's when Greg Maxwell wrote

1209
01:50:30,686 --> 01:50:37,246
that he was breaking out the champagne because Bitcoin is showing transaction fees that are so

1210
01:50:37,886 --> 01:50:45,566
high that security for the blockchain would be achieved even after the subsidy

1211
01:50:46,525 --> 01:50:51,246
is gone in the future after more halvings. But of course, after he said that,

1212
01:50:53,006 --> 01:50:56,525
the fees went down, and not just a little bit. They went down 98%

1213
01:50:57,886 --> 01:51:03,405
from the point at which he was celebrating. And they stayed there for months and months and years

1214
01:51:04,366 --> 01:51:11,165
until there was a bigger spike, a smaller spike, but that was still large in April of 2021.

1215
01:51:12,045 --> 01:51:18,285
We were back up to those high fees, over $10 million per day for a few days, maybe just one

1216
01:51:18,285 --> 01:51:27,646
day in April. And then for another year or two, it was under $500,000 a day in most of 2022.

1217
01:51:27,725 --> 01:51:35,485
And then finally, with Ordinals, we got this spike specifically in May of this year,

1218
01:51:36,285 --> 01:51:42,446
this month basically, we got a spike up to $17 million per day on May 7th. So the miners got

1219
01:51:42,446 --> 01:51:48,925
an influx of value. If you're Bitcoin mining, life is good. This month, we got a big spike,

1220
01:51:48,925 --> 01:51:57,006
only lasted a few days. And now we're back to, right now it's about $1.7 million per day in fees.

1221
01:51:57,006 --> 01:52:03,085
So we're still elevated because the usual level of fees, for example, look at the one-year chart.

1222
01:52:05,006 --> 01:52:09,886
On the one-year chart, we see that for most of 2022, we were about half a million dollars a

1223
01:52:09,886 --> 01:52:14,686
day in fees. That is kind of like the norm. Like over the last five years,

1224
01:52:16,845 --> 01:52:20,766
under half a million dollars a day is the typical range. And then if we're over a million,

1225
01:52:20,766 --> 01:52:25,566
I would say we're elevated. And what we're seeing again and again is there are spikes,

1226
01:52:25,566 --> 01:52:30,285
and then it falls back down and stays low for a long time. Because what happens is people don't

1227
01:52:30,285 --> 01:52:39,006
like paying high fees. So the Paul Sztorc view, the drivechain view is that people generally

1228
01:52:39,006 --> 01:52:42,925
don't want to pay a high fee on a blockchain. So what Bitcoin needs to do is try to collect fees

1229
01:52:42,925 --> 01:52:49,646
from many blockchains. Collect fees from, like instead of all the altcoiners paying fees on

1230
01:52:49,646 --> 01:52:54,525
like a thousand different blockchains, what if they were all paying fees on Bitcoin sidechains,

1231
01:52:54,525 --> 01:53:00,285
and then together there would be a synergy where the base layer would have massive fees

1232
01:53:01,806 --> 01:53:07,405
because of all of the merged mining going on, where the fees are being

1233
01:53:07,405 --> 01:53:11,085
pulled down to the base layer. So everyone's sharing the same miners.

1234
01:53:17,485 --> 01:53:21,886
Are we getting something from nothing? Because it seems like with the same security budget,

1235
01:53:22,686 --> 01:53:28,446
we're getting more transactions processed through the virtue of having all the sidechains process

1236
01:53:28,446 --> 01:53:34,525
their transactions. So are each of those transactions on the sidechains as secure?

1237
01:53:34,525 --> 01:53:41,886
Are we losing security on those sidechains? Are we diluting it basically? Or is it an obvious win

1238
01:53:41,886 --> 01:53:48,605
for everybody and the total transaction fees that would be garnered are so much greater that

1239
01:53:49,165 --> 01:53:53,646
we're not actually losing anything? Do you know what I mean? It seems like we're taking the

1240
01:53:54,686 --> 01:53:59,165
value of a transaction, the amount someone would pay to get a transaction encoded on the chain,

1241
01:53:59,165 --> 01:54:03,566
and we're dividing that up among a lot more transactions on the sidechain. So are we

1242
01:54:03,566 --> 01:54:08,686
reducing the value of each transaction? Are we reducing the security of each transaction?

1243
01:54:09,326 --> 01:54:12,766
Do you understand what I mean or no? It's a weird question.

1244
01:54:13,246 --> 01:54:21,085
It's a great question. So the security budget of a blockchain is the cost that it would take to

1245
01:54:21,806 --> 01:54:29,965
51% hostile attack that blockchain for a period of time. And the worst thing that could ever happen

1246
01:54:29,965 --> 01:54:36,285
to Bitcoin is if, well, one of the worst things is that a 51% miner, someone who controls over

1247
01:54:36,285 --> 01:54:42,045
half of the hash rate would be hostile to Bitcoin and would mine in perpetuity.

1248
01:54:43,886 --> 01:54:52,845
So that's one kind of security that we're talking about. And also in conversations about security,

1249
01:54:52,845 --> 01:54:57,646
it's important to make clear that we're talking about Bitcoin's economic security,

1250
01:54:58,285 --> 01:55:03,405
which is a question of what is the ratio of honest miners to attackers?

1251
01:55:04,366 --> 01:55:12,366
So there is a separate topic in security related conversations like cryptographic security of

1252
01:55:12,366 --> 01:55:18,686
signatures, but those are asymmetrically secure. So when we're talking about Bitcoin's security

1253
01:55:18,686 --> 01:55:23,965
budget, we're not talking about the signatures security, which are cryptographically secured

1254
01:55:23,965 --> 01:55:29,886
and asymmetrically secured. We're talking about mining and whether the miners are honest or not

1255
01:55:30,845 --> 01:55:37,886
and what damage could be done from dishonest mining. So with that said,

1256
01:55:39,246 --> 01:55:45,806
the answer to your question is that the security budget of each sidechain is its fees.

1257
01:55:46,605 --> 01:55:52,126
So the each would have a different level of security budget. In other words, each sidechain

1258
01:55:52,126 --> 01:55:58,925
would have a different degree of transaction finality. And the security budget of the main

1259
01:55:58,925 --> 01:56:05,085
chain would be the sum of the security budgets of all the sidechains and the main chain,

1260
01:56:05,085 --> 01:56:11,085
because the main chain has the coinbase incentivizing the miners and it has the fees

1261
01:56:11,646 --> 01:56:17,485
on the main chain incentivizing the miners. And lastly, it has the fees from all of the sidechains.

1262
01:56:18,285 --> 01:56:24,605
So right now, the main chain miners, about half of them are merged mining RSK. They're getting

1263
01:56:24,605 --> 01:56:31,965
about three Bitcoin per month. And that extra money is making there be more miners on Bitcoin,

1264
01:56:31,965 --> 01:56:38,366
making Bitcoin stronger. In other words, making it more expensive for Janet Yellen to do her 51%

1265
01:56:38,366 --> 01:56:47,485
attack. So what we want is for the RSK fees to be like massively higher. We want tons of fees

1266
01:56:47,485 --> 01:56:53,806
from lots of lots of merged mine sidechains. And that's how Drivechain strengthens Bitcoin in terms

1267
01:56:53,806 --> 01:57:02,045
of the security budget. But your question was, what is the security on the sidechains specifically?

1268
01:57:02,045 --> 01:57:09,246
So let's consider the Zcash sidechain called Zside, where once Drivechain is adopted, then

1269
01:57:10,366 --> 01:57:15,565
there will be this sidechain for privacy. So if you're a privacy enthusiast, let's say you're

1270
01:57:16,845 --> 01:57:22,845
a political dissident living in China or Russia, you're trying to get money from your contacts to

1271
01:57:22,845 --> 01:57:28,845
run your libertarian newspaper or whatever you're doing. You're some sort of ethical person who

1272
01:57:28,845 --> 01:57:39,406
needs privacy. That's the kind of person who this Zcash sidechain is made for. So there is a certain

1273
01:57:39,406 --> 01:57:44,845
amount of fees paid per unit of time on that sidechain, and they're flowing down to the main

1274
01:57:44,845 --> 01:57:51,406
chain. So it's making Bitcoin stronger. And your question was, what is the security on the sidechain?

1275
01:57:51,406 --> 01:57:56,445
So if you're holding the sidechain token, which is a synthetic Bitcoin that can be moved around

1276
01:57:56,445 --> 01:58:04,685
using the Zcash privacy tech, so it's very fungible transactions, the security on that

1277
01:58:04,685 --> 01:58:11,646
sidechain is going to be directly related to the total amount of fees that are paid per unit of

1278
01:58:11,646 --> 01:58:18,685
time on the sidechain. And one of the exciting things about Drivechain is that the drivechains

1279
01:58:18,685 --> 01:58:26,046
can have a lot of security, but there is a bootstrapping similar to the way that Bitcoin

1280
01:58:26,046 --> 01:58:31,485
itself needed to bootstrap security. And the sidechains aren't going to have the benefit of

1281
01:58:31,485 --> 01:58:39,406
the Coinbase or the subsidy to help that bootstrapping. But nevertheless, it can definitely

1282
01:58:39,406 --> 01:58:46,445
be the case that the sidechains could grow very large and fully bootstrap security over time

1283
01:58:47,246 --> 01:58:52,286
as people experiment with using the sidechain and they pay some fees and then they start paying

1284
01:58:52,286 --> 01:58:58,445
more fees. That brings more users, more security, and the more the security is there, the more use

1285
01:58:58,445 --> 01:59:05,325
there'll be. And when there's more and more fees paid, that means more security measured by

1286
01:59:05,325 --> 01:59:12,926
transaction finality. In other words, how large a transaction can you do without having to worry

1287
01:59:13,406 --> 01:59:19,725
about needing to wait a very, very long time or needing to worry about double spending

1288
01:59:19,725 --> 01:59:26,366
on the sidechain? So those are the kinds of things that are relevant when thinking about

1289
01:59:26,366 --> 01:59:32,605
the security of each drivechain sidechain. But you're right in asking your question about,

1290
01:59:33,166 --> 01:59:38,926
you know, what is the level of security on the sidechains? And the answer is that it depends

1291
01:59:38,926 --> 01:59:45,325
on the fees that are paid there. So that's one reason why some people say, well, what we want

1292
01:59:45,325 --> 01:59:53,246
for layer twos are, you know, layer twos that inherit the security of the mainchain. We don't

1293
01:59:53,246 --> 01:59:59,725
want to burden people with having to worry. But then it is not the drivechain design, which is

1294
01:59:59,725 --> 02:00:08,126
optimal, which allows each sidechain to exist with near zero burden on the mainchain. That's the goal

1295
02:00:08,126 --> 02:00:12,845
of drivechain is to have each blockchain be like an independent community.

1296
02:00:12,970 --> 02:00:19,850
That nevertheless is sharing the same set of miners and the same unit of account.

1297
02:00:23,370 --> 02:00:28,410
So that's the beauty of drivechain is if there's a sidechain that gets launched,

1298
02:00:28,410 --> 02:00:32,410
and it has a lot of users, and then it turns out they're not happy and they give up,

1299
02:00:32,410 --> 02:00:38,170
the creation and destruction of these sidechains doesn't impact or burden the mainchain at all.

1300
02:00:38,570 --> 02:00:43,929
It's a totally independent ecosystem. It has its own set of node runners that are distinct

1301
02:00:44,490 --> 02:00:50,970
from the set of Bitcoin miners on mainchain. So no one has to run the sidechain node.

1302
02:00:50,970 --> 02:00:52,729
No one has to use the sidechain.

1303
02:00:54,729 --> 02:01:00,889
Oh, I misunderstood that. I thought the Bitcoin miners would have to run

1304
02:01:00,889 --> 02:01:03,370
the sidechain software. They'd have to run the sidechains.

1305
02:01:03,370 --> 02:01:03,690
No.

1306
02:01:03,690 --> 02:01:05,450
That's not right? Oh, okay.

1307
02:01:05,769 --> 02:01:12,810
No, it's not. Because of BIP301, blind merged mining, the word blind there refers to the fact

1308
02:01:12,810 --> 02:01:18,569
that the Bitcoin miners don't have to run the node of the sidechains. It's optional for them to run it.

1309
02:01:19,929 --> 02:01:27,209
Well, okay. So they can run it and they'll just pay more in energy costs or they'll mine less

1310
02:01:27,209 --> 02:01:33,370
Bitcoin. So why would a miner choose to run like a sidechain? Why would they choose to?

1311
02:01:33,929 --> 02:01:40,730
Running the sidechain node would be like opening a laptop, downloading the RSK software,

1312
02:01:40,730 --> 02:01:46,889
so you can validate that sidechain. It's a blockchain. It's a protocol. Every blockchain

1313
02:01:46,889 --> 02:01:54,650
is a protocol. Every sidechain is a blockchain. And people who want to use that sidechain and

1314
02:01:54,650 --> 02:02:01,130
be enthusiasts would run the sidechain node and the Bitcoin miners wouldn't have to.

1315
02:02:01,130 --> 02:02:05,929
It would be optional for them through blind merged mining. They would receive the fees

1316
02:02:05,929 --> 02:02:10,809
from the sidechain, the transaction fees, without running the node. They could run the node

1317
02:02:11,529 --> 02:02:18,249
and they might want to just to be involved more so, but they might make a slightly higher amount

1318
02:02:18,249 --> 02:02:23,130
of money in the case of some sidechains. Oh, because they'd be getting the fees from

1319
02:02:23,130 --> 02:02:27,850
that sidechain also. Okay. But in terms of economic incentive, it's likely that the Bitcoin

1320
02:02:27,850 --> 02:02:36,649
nodes would just do it in a blind sense probably. There might be some incentive for some miners

1321
02:02:36,649 --> 02:02:44,410
to run certain sidechain nodes. For example, if there's a sidechain for smart contracting,

1322
02:02:45,050 --> 02:02:52,889
then there might be a slightly higher amount of profit that would arise from running the node.

1323
02:02:52,970 --> 02:03:00,169
So some miners would run the node and others wouldn't. It's kind of like today, some people

1324
02:03:01,369 --> 02:03:08,809
might be in their own pool all by themselves or they might join someone else's pool and that way

1325
02:03:08,809 --> 02:03:14,729
they can just focus on hashing. They don't want to have to also run a Bitcoin node. So some people

1326
02:03:14,729 --> 02:03:23,290
have an ASIC like me. I have an ASIC. I run it using brains slash pool. I don't have my own

1327
02:03:24,249 --> 02:03:30,169
pool all by myself, not running my own node to then just independently participate directly.

1328
02:03:30,169 --> 02:03:36,889
Instead, I let brains do that work and then they also provide a smoother flow of income

1329
02:03:38,089 --> 02:03:42,649
with respect to the mining activity that I'm doing. So people can either outsource

1330
02:03:43,609 --> 02:03:49,690
and not run the node or they can internalize that activity and do it themselves. It would be optional.

1331
02:03:51,290 --> 02:03:52,330
That makes sense. Thank you.

1332
02:03:55,529 --> 02:03:59,930
Well, it was cool to check out the prices with you. What we saw is that the latest data available

1333
02:03:59,930 --> 02:04:07,850
on blockchain.com shows that as of a couple of days ago, the fees were about $1.7 million per day.

1334
02:04:08,009 --> 02:04:12,970
So right now, we're about three times higher than the normal rate of half a million dollars a day.

1335
02:04:13,770 --> 02:04:20,570
So my kind of rough assessment is that right now in Bitcoin, we're looking at fees that are a

1336
02:04:20,570 --> 02:04:25,850
little bit higher than where they usually are. So I would expect the fees to come down a bit,

1337
02:04:26,809 --> 02:04:31,769
back down to about half a million dollars a day. That's been the norm since Bitcoin was created.

1338
02:04:31,769 --> 02:04:37,290
It's like a low level of fees and then there's a spike now and then and then we fall back down.

1339
02:04:37,369 --> 02:04:44,809
Of course, some people are optimistic, in the worst sense of the word, that the fees will start

1340
02:04:44,809 --> 02:04:50,249
to just march higher and higher and that we won't need drivechain and that the fees will climb

1341
02:04:50,249 --> 02:04:56,010
forever. And these people think that Bitcoin, you know, the token will appreciate and so will

1342
02:04:56,010 --> 02:05:03,290
the block space. But actually, the reality is that the token has appreciated astronomically

1343
02:05:03,290 --> 02:05:08,329
over the last decade, while the block space hasn't similarly appreciated.

1344
02:05:09,929 --> 02:05:15,049
And that's because the block space is a whole different kind of economic good than the token.

1345
02:05:18,570 --> 02:05:22,809
The token, you know, as we know from reading Paul's article called Security Budget in the

1346
02:05:22,809 --> 02:05:28,570
Long Run, the token is a proportional good, whereas the block space is a production good.

1347
02:05:29,450 --> 02:05:37,450
And different kinds of goods have different features in economics. So people like there to be

1348
02:05:38,489 --> 02:05:48,649
a lot of tools and economic goods that can be used for, well, I don't want to kind of

1349
02:05:49,929 --> 02:05:55,209
try to restate his whole argument in that article, but you can find it if you go to

1350
02:05:56,010 --> 02:06:03,769
truthcoin.info and read from 2019 Security Budget in the Long Run and then the follow up article,

1351
02:06:03,769 --> 02:06:11,290
the second one in 2021 called Security Budget Part 2. Those two essays are great

1352
02:06:12,249 --> 02:06:16,489
and they're all about exploring the relationship between Bitcoin's token and its block space. Those

1353
02:06:16,489 --> 02:06:22,570
are the two goods on the Bitcoin network, the token and the block space. And the block space

1354
02:06:22,570 --> 02:06:26,649
is the one that is not well understood. Everyone understands the token. You know,

1355
02:06:26,649 --> 02:06:32,730
it's like digital gold. There's only so many of them and they're scarce and they have value.

1356
02:06:32,730 --> 02:06:40,570
So people understand the token. But the block space is a tricky matter and

1357
02:06:42,249 --> 02:06:45,529
there's no guarantee that the block space will appreciate a lot.

1358
02:06:46,489 --> 02:06:53,690
Because people can buy Bitcoin and then move claims on Bitcoin around without generating

1359
02:06:53,690 --> 02:07:00,489
fees. For example, if you're holding liquid Bitcoin or custodial Bitcoin or Bitcoin on

1360
02:07:00,489 --> 02:07:08,489
Lightning, then the amount of fees generated for main chain miners is lower than if you were to

1361
02:07:08,489 --> 02:07:13,130
hold an equal amount of Bitcoin on main chain and move it around just as much.

1362
02:07:15,610 --> 02:07:20,089
If I send my Bitcoin from my Coinbase account to your Coinbase account,

1363
02:07:20,089 --> 02:07:22,890
that doesn't generate a Bitcoin transaction on main chain.

1364
02:07:26,329 --> 02:07:35,049
So people are using technology to lower their burden of fees that they have to pay Bitcoin miners.

1365
02:07:36,649 --> 02:07:40,249
So in a future where there's one sidechain, say something like

1366
02:07:40,970 --> 02:07:45,209
Lightning fork on top of Bitcoin, for example, layer two payment solution that makes

1367
02:07:45,769 --> 02:07:50,410
each fee per Bitcoin transaction, virtualized Bitcoin on this layer two cheaper.

1368
02:07:51,290 --> 02:07:58,489
Is it possible we'd see fees reduced relative to today because the fees on the second layer

1369
02:07:58,489 --> 02:08:03,929
would be cheaper and periodically summarized to the main chain? Does it make sense? Is it

1370
02:08:04,649 --> 02:08:07,610
guaranteed that any addition of a sidechain

1371
02:08:08,809 --> 02:08:12,890
will increase the amount of fees per block or is it possible it could reduce in some cases?

1372
02:08:16,010 --> 02:08:22,489
I think that it's going to increase the total amount of fees received by the Bitcoin miners

1373
02:08:22,489 --> 02:08:31,610
because each sidechain exists only to offer new features. So the value of Bitcoin grows

1374
02:08:32,570 --> 02:08:43,209
in proportion to the creation of useful sidechains and all the demand for the sidechains

1375
02:08:43,209 --> 02:08:47,610
in terms of the token and the token on the sidechain is a synthetic Bitcoin

1376
02:08:48,410 --> 02:08:53,769
and the value of the block space on the sidechain flows to Bitcoin miners through merged mining.

1377
02:08:54,649 --> 02:08:58,730
So whenever these sidechains are adopted, if they're successful, people are using them,

1378
02:08:59,689 --> 02:09:05,370
then they're causing Bitcoin's price to rise and they're sending fees to Bitcoin miners.

1379
02:09:06,329 --> 02:09:13,850
And the sidechains are connected to the main chain through the two-way peg.

1380
02:09:13,850 --> 02:09:20,170
So there will be peg in and peg out transactions on main chain where people are sending Bitcoin

1381
02:09:20,170 --> 02:09:26,089
to the sidechain or removing Bitcoin from the sidechain. In other words, there's Bitcoin locked

1382
02:09:26,170 --> 02:09:31,209
in the hashrate escrow and there are transactions that will be adding to the hashrate escrow or

1383
02:09:31,209 --> 02:09:37,209
subtracting from it. And those peg in or peg out transactions generate a main chain transaction.

1384
02:09:37,209 --> 02:09:45,689
And there's only so much space on the main chain block space for transactions, such as those peg

1385
02:09:45,689 --> 02:09:52,410
in and peg out transactions. So the sidechains will tend to increase the value of main chain

1386
02:09:52,410 --> 02:09:58,329
block space. And through blind merged mining, all of the transaction fees on the sidechain

1387
02:09:58,329 --> 02:10:02,170
are almost entirely brought down to main chain miners through blind merged mining.

1388
02:10:02,170 --> 02:10:08,410
So the net effect of all of this is if Bitcoin has all these sidechains that are very popular

1389
02:10:08,970 --> 02:10:14,649
for privacy, for scaling, for smart contracts, for hive mind, for all sorts of reasons. If there's

1390
02:10:14,649 --> 02:10:20,410
all these large sidechains, then the overall effect is that the main chain transaction

1391
02:10:21,370 --> 02:10:28,089
fees will be high and the total amount of transaction fees received by miners will be high

1392
02:10:28,970 --> 02:10:32,569
due to blind merged mining. I think I wanted to ask Paul this question.

1393
02:10:33,610 --> 02:10:40,970
I think I've asked him it in the past before he left. I wanted to ask what is the approximate

1394
02:10:42,009 --> 02:10:48,889
amount of value that the sidechains will have relative to the main chain? In other words,

1395
02:10:48,889 --> 02:10:55,930
how much Bitcoin will be held in a hash rate escrow versus held in main chain, not in hash

1396
02:10:55,930 --> 02:11:02,970
rate escrow? I think in the past he said probably about half, maybe. So half of the potential value

1397
02:11:02,970 --> 02:11:09,610
of Bitcoin is going to be in these sidechains. And the other half will just be sitting on main

1398
02:11:09,610 --> 02:11:17,449
chain. And he also thinks, if I recall from prior conversations, that probably 99 percent of the

1399
02:11:17,449 --> 02:11:24,009
transaction fees in the far future would come from sidechains. So most of the activity of

1400
02:11:24,009 --> 02:11:29,850
people moving money around will be on the higher layers, the sidechains, not on the main chain.

1401
02:11:29,850 --> 02:11:35,129
The main chain would mainly be used for just peg in and peg out transactions to the sidechain.

1402
02:11:36,889 --> 02:11:41,370
So in the far future, Bitcoin would be very much multi-layered and most people would not be

1403
02:11:41,370 --> 02:11:45,610
interacting with the main chain. And this is something that some people who've been around

1404
02:11:45,610 --> 02:11:50,089
for a long time might be uncomfortable with because they like the idea of Bitcoin staying

1405
02:11:50,089 --> 02:11:55,689
simple and staying single layer. But Bitcoin only has so much throughput available on the base layer.

1406
02:11:55,689 --> 02:12:01,209
You can only do a few hundred thousand transactions per day. So there's no way that 10 billion people

1407
02:12:01,209 --> 02:12:06,810
will use Bitcoin unless Bitcoin becomes multi-layered where there's much higher throughput

1408
02:12:06,810 --> 02:12:14,410
on some of the higher layers. Is the 50 percent value split just conjecture or is there some

1409
02:12:14,410 --> 02:12:21,209
restraint that you can impose on the implementation that would restrict how much

1410
02:12:21,209 --> 02:12:27,689
value is allocated between sidechains and the main chain? I know you don't remember the exact

1411
02:12:27,689 --> 02:12:31,370
number if it's 50 percent, but is that just conjecture? Yeah, it's just a guess.

1412
02:12:31,370 --> 02:12:35,610
Okay. What motivates that? Because you can guess anything.

1413
02:12:38,889 --> 02:12:43,209
A similar kind of way of thinking is to say, look at all the value of the altcoins.

1414
02:12:45,370 --> 02:12:47,850
Their value is like half of the blockchain market.

1415
02:12:48,810 --> 02:12:55,850
It's changing, right? As time goes on, it changes. So is Paul just saying if sidechains were to

1416
02:12:55,850 --> 02:13:01,050
exist today in place of altcoins, they would take 50 percent of the value? Or is he saying in the

1417
02:13:01,050 --> 02:13:08,730
long term stability limit? What I recall from the conversation is that in the very long term,

1418
02:13:08,730 --> 02:13:15,050
if Bitcoin adopts drivechain, then like 10 years later, we'll look and we'll see that the majority

1419
02:13:15,050 --> 02:13:21,129
of the transaction fees are coming from sidechains. And about half of Bitcoin's value has

1420
02:13:21,129 --> 02:13:27,769
been sent to sidechains so that the Bitcoiners can use the features of the sidechains while

1421
02:13:27,769 --> 02:13:34,170
still using a Bitcoin rather than having sold their Bitcoin for Ethereum or for Zcash.

1422
02:13:35,129 --> 02:13:43,449
So if I can rephrase, you're saying 50 percent of value will be stored and then 50 percent of value

1423
02:13:43,449 --> 02:13:51,529
will be transferred and used and be actively transacted. Is that kind of the idea? The 50

1424
02:13:51,529 --> 02:13:58,329
percent that's not on the sidechains, that's just in custody. Someone's holding it. Is that the idea?

1425
02:13:59,290 --> 02:14:05,449
Yes. So if you're like a frequent transactor who wants very private money, then you would be on the

1426
02:14:05,449 --> 02:14:14,009
Zcash sidechain. And if you're paying for coffee at the local Starbucks, you're paying probably on

1427
02:14:14,009 --> 02:14:19,769
Thunder sidechain. That's how you're moving your Bitcoin around, you know, with one gigabyte blocks

1428
02:14:19,769 --> 02:14:25,050
and low fees. And then if you're storing money for your grandkids, perhaps that would be on main

1429
02:14:25,449 --> 02:14:33,129
chain, where the fee to move it is a high fee, like $50 or $100 worth of Bitcoin. The kind of fee

1430
02:14:33,129 --> 02:14:38,009
you're not going to want to pay except in rare circumstances, like once every couple of years,

1431
02:14:38,009 --> 02:14:42,810
you might move a bunch of your money into Thunder so that you can spend it.

1432
02:14:45,370 --> 02:14:46,329
That makes sense. Thank you.

1433
02:14:46,649 --> 02:14:53,290
So the way I feel about this is, if about half of the potential value of Bitcoin is

1434
02:14:54,089 --> 02:14:59,449
the demand for these sidechains, then there's roughly a similar understanding we can have where

1435
02:14:59,449 --> 02:15:06,889
we look at the market for blockchains today, we see that so much value is held in altcoins. That's

1436
02:15:06,889 --> 02:15:12,089
value that should be with Bitcoin. So that's how we can get this rough approximation that

1437
02:15:12,170 --> 02:15:18,970
Bitcoin is missing out on really doubling its price through adoptive drivechain potentially,

1438
02:15:20,089 --> 02:15:29,050
because drivechain could lead to the devaluation of the altcoins and a sort of harmonious, you know,

1439
02:15:31,930 --> 02:15:37,449
appreciation of Bitcoin at the same time and through the same effect, where Bitcoin absorbs

1440
02:15:38,250 --> 02:15:44,089
effect, where Bitcoin absorbs the technology and then absorbs the value of the altcoins.

1441
02:15:46,170 --> 02:15:50,009
But it would absorb them not to Bitcoin main chain directly, it would absorb them

1442
02:15:50,009 --> 02:15:56,490
to the sidechains, the demand for which feeds into Bitcoin's price. So we don't defeat the

1443
02:15:56,490 --> 02:16:02,569
altcoins and get their value and technology and users until we have peer to peer sidechains on

1444
02:16:02,569 --> 02:16:09,850
Bitcoin. And that is what will lead to Bitcoin having all of the users and value and fees of

1445
02:16:09,850 --> 02:16:16,329
altcoins. They have to be peer to peer. As long as the sidechains on Bitcoin aren't peer to peer,

1446
02:16:16,329 --> 02:16:22,410
Bitcoin will continue to lose value to altcoins. That's the drivechain thesis is that there's

1447
02:16:22,410 --> 02:16:28,810
good ideas out there for blockchains other than the way Bitcoin is designed. And the only way

1448
02:16:28,810 --> 02:16:37,930
Bitcoin can keep the users and fees and value associated with those ideas is if Bitcoin has

1449
02:16:37,930 --> 02:16:45,370
peer to peer sidechains. Every Bitcoin sidechain today is federated. Every single one has a 15 party

1450
02:16:46,649 --> 02:16:53,769
federated multisig. Or rather, I should say, every Bitcoin sidechain today that has a two way peg

1451
02:16:53,769 --> 02:16:59,689
is not peer to peer because people have these like one way pegged peer to peer space chains,

1452
02:17:00,889 --> 02:17:06,410
but they're not they're not two way pegged. So there's no guarantee that the token on that side

1453
02:17:06,410 --> 02:17:10,970
chain is going to be traded for one Bitcoin because you can't move it. You can't get that

1454
02:17:10,970 --> 02:17:17,370
value back to main chain. It's a one way peg. So it might be peer to peer, but good luck with that

1455
02:17:17,370 --> 02:17:24,890
as like an investment decision. Because it can't be redeemed for Bitcoin on main chain. That's the

1456
02:17:24,890 --> 02:17:30,409
whole point of drivechain is that it provides the peer to peer two way peg that includes a peg out,

1457
02:17:30,409 --> 02:17:36,010
not just a peg in. Pegging out to the sidechain can be done peer to peer without drivechain,

1458
02:17:36,010 --> 02:17:38,890
but there's no way to get the token back. So they call that a space chain,

1459
02:17:39,850 --> 02:17:45,770
maybe because you're you're out in space using it. And people want to be able to move their Bitcoin

1460
02:17:45,770 --> 02:17:50,329
back. That is a peg out mechanism that brings Bitcoin back to the main chain. That's what

1461
02:17:50,329 --> 02:17:55,449
forces up the price of the token on the sidechain. The fact that it can be redeemed for Bitcoin.

1462
02:17:55,449 --> 02:18:00,089
That's what that's what forces the price up at all times. So there's always trades one for one

1463
02:18:00,089 --> 02:18:10,329
with Bitcoin. It's a really elaborate and exciting design. Coming to a Bitcoin store near you.

1464
02:18:11,209 --> 02:18:16,089
Hopefully, we don't have to wait too many more years. Hopefully, things take off this year.

1465
02:18:16,089 --> 02:18:20,089
We've got some exciting things planned. You asked a lot of really awesome questions today. Thank you

1466
02:18:20,089 --> 02:18:29,289
for that. It was fun to hear your back and forth, Paul. You're welcome. We'll be back on Friday.

1467
02:18:29,289 --> 02:18:36,010
This has been Drivechain Twitter Spaces. Everyone's favorite place to get conversation on Drivechain.

1468
02:18:36,089 --> 02:18:43,530
It's a fast paced and exciting topic. What will the future bring? Will we see higher fees

1469
02:18:44,250 --> 02:18:50,970
through the activities of Eric Wall? Or will Bitcoin's block space drop down in value

1470
02:18:50,970 --> 02:18:58,730
as it has time and again? And will there be a flippity or not? And will it encourage understanding

1471
02:18:58,730 --> 02:19:01,449
and support for Drivechain or not? We'll have to wait and see.

1472
02:19:01,530 --> 02:19:09,689
It'll be a drama. And who knows how the future will unfold? We'll have to just be patient and

1473
02:19:09,689 --> 02:19:20,809
watch as time marches on. But we have the truth on our side. So there's that. And that's exciting.

1474
02:19:22,010 --> 02:19:25,130
We used to meet every Monday and Thursday. Now we meet every Monday and Friday.

1475
02:19:25,370 --> 02:19:30,569
And that's exciting. We used to meet every Monday and Thursday. Now we meet every Monday and Friday.

1476
02:19:31,289 --> 02:19:38,650
It's always at 9.30 a.m. Pacific. And these are recorded spaces for those who want to listen

1477
02:19:38,650 --> 02:19:47,289
on demand. I know Fiatjaf sometimes does. He is a great Drivechain fan and has written a whole

1478
02:19:47,289 --> 02:19:53,530
essay about it, which you can all find at fiatjaf.com. Click on Bitcoin and then click

1479
02:19:53,530 --> 02:20:01,850
on Drivechain and you'll see his essay. It's great. So happy Memorial Day again. Thanks,

1480
02:20:01,850 --> 02:20:05,610
everyone, for joining. We'll be back on Friday for more Drivechain conversation.

1481
02:20:06,890 --> 02:20:15,049
Bring your thoughts and questions. And in the meantime, be sure to check out our Telegram group.

1482
02:20:15,049 --> 02:20:22,890
You can find it if you go to Drivechain.info and then click on Telegram in the links on the right.

1483
02:20:22,890 --> 02:20:27,770
And you'll see the Telegram group with 700 members. We also have Drivechain's Reddit.

1484
02:20:29,130 --> 02:20:36,250
That's Drivechain with an S at the end. That's our subreddit. We have posts in there on occasion.

1485
02:20:36,809 --> 02:20:40,089
But the main place where we do our content is Layer2Labs.com,

1486
02:20:41,130 --> 02:20:49,689
the newly created company focused on Drivechain and related matters. And you can go to Layer2.com

1487
02:20:49,689 --> 02:20:55,689
for information along with Drivechain.info. Follow us here at LayerTwo Labs to see our spaces

1488
02:20:55,689 --> 02:21:04,409
in the future. And at Layer2Labs.com or Drivechain.info, you can download our software.

1489
02:21:04,409 --> 02:21:11,530
We have powerful software written by genius developers who have created a testnet with

1490
02:21:12,490 --> 02:21:20,329
the Zside sidechain, Ethereum, Ethside, and other exciting projects are coming. So if you're

1491
02:21:20,890 --> 02:21:29,449
capable with computers, download the software and run it and experience the thrill of Drivechain

1492
02:21:29,449 --> 02:21:38,169
firsthand. And make sure you don't have a Drivechain accident. Don't succumb to temptation

1493
02:21:38,730 --> 02:21:46,650
to support inflation. Stay true to Bitcoin's ethos and support merged mining. So if you see

1494
02:21:46,650 --> 02:21:54,250
Peter Todd, give him a friendly hello and remind him that it's important that Bitcoin not embark

1495
02:21:54,250 --> 02:22:02,890
on inflation. And instead, Bitcoin should do merged mining like Satoshi said. And

1496
02:22:03,449 --> 02:22:09,610
and if you see a Bitcoiner who thinks that

1497
02:22:12,329 --> 02:22:18,010
the flippening doesn't matter, but also that Bitcoin is perfect and will always be number one,

1498
02:22:19,209 --> 02:22:24,250
well, they're having a Drivechain accident. Help them correct their course. Help them

1499
02:22:24,250 --> 02:22:29,289
understand that they can't simultaneously think that Bitcoin will always be number one,

1500
02:22:30,089 --> 02:22:34,809
but also that the flippening can't happen. And if it does, it's meaningless. Like, no,

1501
02:22:34,809 --> 02:22:39,929
we have to make a decision. Either we're trying to be number one or not. And if we're not trying

1502
02:22:39,929 --> 02:22:45,449
to be number one, then what is all this talk about global monetization and Bitcoinization about? I

1503
02:22:45,449 --> 02:22:50,970
mean, that's certainly predicated on the idea that Bitcoin will be number one and take over

1504
02:22:50,970 --> 02:22:56,650
the world and have the biggest network effect. And there's like this Robert Breedlove idea that

1505
02:22:57,130 --> 02:23:01,929
money moves to one through network effects. Well, it's important, therefore, that Bitcoin be number

1506
02:23:01,929 --> 02:23:06,809
one. If Ethereum is number one, has the biggest number of users and network effect, then

1507
02:23:08,089 --> 02:23:13,610
it's on track to be the global money. So we want to stay number one. We want Bitcoin to be number

1508
02:23:13,610 --> 02:23:19,449
one forever and not just number one. We want Bitcoin to be the only layer one with no competition.

1509
02:23:20,490 --> 02:23:26,329
And every single blockchain user would be using Bitcoin or a layer two on Bitcoin, a sidechain.

1510
02:23:27,289 --> 02:23:34,169
That's our goal with Drivechain. So we have to we have to conquer these mistakes people have

1511
02:23:34,169 --> 02:23:41,370
of thinking that the flipping isn't a threat and thinking that inflation is fine and all the other

1512
02:23:42,010 --> 02:23:47,850
concerns and misguided ideas that are holding back Drivechain. We have to conquer those mistakes

1513
02:23:48,730 --> 02:23:49,209
together.

1514
02:23:56,730 --> 02:24:01,610
See you all on Friday. Bring your friends and family for more Drivechain Twitter spaces.

1515
02:24:03,929 --> 02:24:05,209
Thanks, Fuzzy Bear.