1
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It's hypothetical.

2
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I'm trying to figure out the way to cause the most chaos.

3
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If I could have thought of a bug like that, I would.

4
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That would be an optimal bug,

5
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one that is incredibly obscure,

6
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spread out kind of across the entire code base

7
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and hard to connect if you're scanning it

8
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or doing a security audit.

9
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And it's kind of like the perfect bug

10
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for this type of exploit.

11
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That's number one, right?

12
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And then I'll just reiterate for anyone

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who may have not been here initially.

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Number two would be shipping with firmware

15
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that conducts a nonce exfiltration

16
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at a certain block height.

17
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And so Portland has stated that firmware shipped on devices,

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it's very difficult, if not impossible,

19
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to reconstruct what that firmware is doing, right?

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And if it is different than, say,

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the source viewable firmware

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that you might flash on it on your own.

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And so I think the second leg of this attack,

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this kind of perfectly orchestrated attack

25
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by a super evil genius would be-

26
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How do you not update?

27
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How do you not fucking update the firmware

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to your cold wallet?

29
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Like, it's just the one thing that you have to keep secure.

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Like, you'd think you would get this later.

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Mr. Hoddle, there's 105 people in this space.

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I'm guessing most don't flash the firmware

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on their devices when they get it,

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unless it has some process

35
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by which it flashes the newest firmware on its own, right?

36
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Some devices, you plug into your computer

37
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and then it flashes it automatically, the newest thing,

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and then checks the signatures and yada, yada, yada.

39
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But with Coldcards-

40
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I mean, that's the first thing that I do

41
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for whenever I get any device.

42
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Right, so that's something we need

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to educate people about, for sure.

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I agree.

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Like, anything.

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00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:52,720
When you get a phone, you update.

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Everything.

48
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You have to update it.

49
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You're not thinking in terms of the average user.

50
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You're thinking in terms of the power user,

51
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or the user who's actually done their research

52
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and understands the risks associated

53
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with keeping shipped firmware on that device, right?

54
00:02:10,039 --> 00:02:10,880
I agree.

55
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I also flash my own firmware.

56
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I have one Coldcard where I haven't.

57
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It's the Mark 5.

58
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I just never got around to using it.

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As a matter of fact, I'm gonna keep that shipped firmware

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on there, and I'm gonna be conducting tests

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on a regular basis to see if my theory ever plays out.

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And after a certain block height,

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it starts to conduct this next attack.

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I think, as a matter of fact,

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if they had-

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Without the dice roll?

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Well, listen.

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If this perfect attack had been thwarted,

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right, tripped up, preemptively, unexpectedly,

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and you didn't want to conduct the rest of it,

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or you didn't wanna get caught, what would you do?

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Nothing.

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No.

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You would rush out an emergency firmware fix

75
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and try to get everyone to remove

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the shipped firmware on that device

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to reduce the number of-

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to reduce the likelihood that someone would find

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a nonce exfiltration later, when it actually begins,

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because that's already set on a timer, right?

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And in my opinion-

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I have a hard time.

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I just have a hard time.

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I think people-

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Hey, I'm not saying this happened for real.

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I'm just saying-

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No, no, no, the update thing.

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Not that, not that.

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The update.

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Like, I just, when you, a Coldcard user,

91
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I would think is a power user.

92
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Like, if you're not a power user, you're getting a ledger.

93
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I guarantee you, you're wrong.

94
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I guarantee you.

95
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And I just feel like,

96
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how do you not fucking update your hardware?

97
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I just don't, I can't stand that.

98
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I don't understand how you don't do that.

99
00:03:45,559 --> 00:03:47,160
Because most people don't understand the threat.

100
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Especially out of, like, right when it's brand new.

101
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Can I just finish?

102
00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,160
Let me just finish the full attack, okay?

103
00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:55,679
And then we can open it up for discussion.

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D++, I see you there.

105
00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,440
Shooter, G-Money, I'll bring you guys up in a second.

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I just want to finish my thoughts.

107
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Mr. Hoddle, let me just finish real quick.

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And then we can have a lively discussion about all of this.

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So you guys can tell me how I'm retarded

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or how I'm a genius, evil genius.

111
00:04:11,839 --> 00:04:16,040
Okay, so in my opinion,

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you would want the nonce exfiltration

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to have an absolute timer, block height based,

114
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so that at a certain block height,

115
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you know, which you now flip it

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where any signed transaction used,

117
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you know, with any Coldcards using the shipped firmware

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will now expose your private key completely.

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Like, it doesn't even try to, like,

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I mean, it might encrypt it, obviously.

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It's not gonna show it raw.

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It'll encrypt it, but show it completely.

123
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And so it will be very obvious if you're looking on chain

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that this is happening.

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But they, at this point, would want to do

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the complete attack and try to rug in RBF war

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as many things as possible and in the fog of war.

128
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Because remember,

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the first leg is you've already grinded

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all of the available seeds from the RNG,

131
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from the limited entropy RNG.

132
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So you have those tables prior

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to even shipping these devices.

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You've got those ready to go.

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You're probably watching to see, you know,

136
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well, first of all, you have the timer

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for the nonce exfiltration,

138
00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:26,720
but you're also watching to see how, you know,

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your balances are growing based on people

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who have just done the RNG.

141
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You also might be grinding phrases on top of those

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just in case you wanna try to find some additional funds

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that may have been hidden by passphrases in the meantime

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while you wait to conduct this kind of perfect attack.

145
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And then as soon as you get close to,

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probably within a block or two, right?

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Maybe the block before.

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As soon as you get close to that absolute block height,

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after which nonce exfiltration,

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00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,239
that leg of the attack begins,

151
00:06:07,559 --> 00:06:12,559
you trip the wire for the RNG back.

152
00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:18,320
Now, what we witnessed with Coldcard a week ago

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00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,959
was child's play compared to what it could have been

154
00:06:21,959 --> 00:06:25,920
at the attacker grinded through the entire set first

155
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and then tripped the wire later.

156
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They were obviously under, I'm constrained

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because they knew it was only a matter of time

158
00:06:33,519 --> 00:06:35,480
before some other retard pointed Kimi

159
00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:36,920
at that same code base.

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So it makes sense why they did things kind of quickly

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and a bit retardedly.

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But had they found the exploit without the use of Kimi

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and known that it was such an obfuscated exploit

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that no one would find it,

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00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,720
they would have also spent the time to grind the tables,

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maximize the amount of coins being rugged.

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00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:01,559
I mean, they probably wouldn't have done it all at once,

168
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though, to be honest.

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I think, anyways, let me just finish the thought though.

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I'm kind of, I'm trailing in and out of these ideas,

171
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but I hope the picture I'm painting

172
00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:13,799
is beginning to become clear.

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00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:21,720
So you rug all the RNG ones in one fell swoop.

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Thousands of coins gone, right?

175
00:07:26,399 --> 00:07:27,839
Literally in one block.

176
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Everyone panics.

177
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I all rush Twitter to try to figure out what's going on.

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Many just start to move their coins if they weren't one,

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if they weren't people who are affected.

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But this is where the evil genius

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00:07:48,799 --> 00:07:50,200
of the second leg comes in.

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In the fog of war and in the panic,

183
00:07:53,239 --> 00:07:56,200
everyone's moving their coins as quickly as they can

184
00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,799
without really checking to see if that's a risk.

185
00:08:01,399 --> 00:08:03,720
But it actually is the second leg of the attack

186
00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:08,720
that allows for this evil genius to now sweep those too,

187
00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:11,200
because those private keys

188
00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,359
have now been leaked with that movement.

189
00:08:17,399 --> 00:08:20,119
Now, not only have you rugged the thousands of coins

190
00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,279
that used the RNG, you're now rugging all the ones left over

191
00:08:24,279 --> 00:08:27,279
that had the shipped firmware on it.

192
00:08:27,279 --> 00:08:29,079
Now, of course, Mr. Hottle, I know,

193
00:08:30,239 --> 00:08:33,159
the most ultra-paranoid people

194
00:08:33,159 --> 00:08:35,239
would probably still survive this attack.

195
00:08:35,239 --> 00:08:39,559
And actually that's part of, I mean, I don't know,

196
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maybe that's just survival of the fittest.

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I don't think that's ultra-paranoid though.

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00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,039
Like, I don't think that is, ultra-paranoid would be-

199
00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,599
Multi-sig, multi-vendor, rolling dice,

200
00:08:53,599 --> 00:08:55,000
and passphrases on top.

201
00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:56,799
They'd be protected too.

202
00:08:56,799 --> 00:08:58,719
And they would survive as well.

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00:08:58,719 --> 00:09:01,159
Assuming they flashed on firmware,

204
00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:07,320
assuming that they only had keys made by Coldcards

205
00:09:08,119 --> 00:09:11,559
below the threshold of signers in the multi-sig,

206
00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:12,640
they would survive too, right?

207
00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:14,159
So in other words, I mean,

208
00:09:14,159 --> 00:09:17,640
the ultra-paranoid survived this attack,

209
00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,679
but the attack itself causes wreckage,

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00:09:23,239 --> 00:09:26,159
probably an order of magnitude higher than what we saw.

211
00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:33,320
And what we saw last week was incredibly damaging.

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00:09:36,599 --> 00:09:40,080
So imagine if it was 10 times worse,

213
00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,280
what kind of effect that would have had on the network

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00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,559
and the ripples it would have had.

215
00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:51,479
Imagine not only the number of coins being rugged,

216
00:09:51,479 --> 00:09:56,479
having multiplied in factor,

217
00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,640
but also the number of histories

218
00:10:04,359 --> 00:10:07,760
in correlated and privacy being nuked

219
00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,159
across all those devices as well, right?

220
00:10:12,159 --> 00:10:16,559
So you cast the net in two separate spots,

221
00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:18,919
both far and wide.

222
00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,719
And yeah, there's little slivers where people get through

223
00:10:23,719 --> 00:10:26,880
and aren't affected, but the vast majority are.

224
00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,599
And that's how you conduct the most optimal attack

225
00:10:29,599 --> 00:10:33,280
is you first hold a ripcord on the one

226
00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,840
that you're kind of tracking diligently

227
00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:40,119
and you know you can just sweep in one fell swoop.

228
00:10:40,119 --> 00:10:43,000
And then in the fog of war, as everyone's panicking,

229
00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,479
you actually wait for them to reveal themselves

230
00:10:46,479 --> 00:10:49,919
and you snipe them as they're running away.

231
00:10:49,919 --> 00:10:52,919
Literally how you would do this.

232
00:10:52,919 --> 00:10:55,440
It's like, it's fucking war gamed out, bro.

233
00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,760
Like this is how you would do it in a real war too.

234
00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:00,719
You fucking send a big fucking bomb

235
00:11:00,719 --> 00:11:03,080
and then you snipe off the people who are running away

236
00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,440
with their heads off, you know what I'm saying?

237
00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:07,159
Why would you snipe them as they're running away?

238
00:11:07,159 --> 00:11:08,679
You mean like people that are in a multi-sig,

239
00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:10,520
like with the two Coldcard?

240
00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:11,640
That's the visual I'm getting,

241
00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:13,599
but it makes sense to me why you would do it that way.

242
00:11:13,599 --> 00:11:15,719
And also like, why wouldn't you just-

243
00:11:15,719 --> 00:11:16,559
Why wouldn't they just,

244
00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:17,799
why do they need to wait for them to move?

245
00:11:17,799 --> 00:11:19,679
Why wouldn't they just rug them right away?

246
00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:21,320
Because they don't have their private keys yet.

247
00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,440
That's what the nonce exfiltration is.

248
00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,280
You don't get the private keys until they move the coins.

249
00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:26,119
Yeah, you get the private key

250
00:11:26,119 --> 00:11:26,960
when they start moving the coins in.

251
00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:28,159
Well, in that case, you-

252
00:11:29,359 --> 00:11:30,200
Bingo.

253
00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:33,320
Understand what I'm saying, Mr. Model?

254
00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:34,799
And nobody can detect-

255
00:11:34,799 --> 00:11:38,440
And nobody can detect that leg of the attack

256
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,400
until that block height's been passed,

257
00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,919
if it is an absolute block height and set up prior.

258
00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,239
So it's something that, you know, if it is,

259
00:11:48,239 --> 00:11:50,679
like I think it would be prudent

260
00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:53,479
if anyone does have a Coldcard

261
00:11:53,479 --> 00:11:55,719
and they're ultra paranoid like me,

262
00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,799
do not get rid of the shipped firmware on that device

263
00:12:00,799 --> 00:12:04,159
if you still have one with the original shipped firmware

264
00:12:04,159 --> 00:12:06,119
and conduct tests periodically

265
00:12:06,119 --> 00:12:11,119
to see if any of the nonce values are funky.

266
00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,880
And if they are, at any point in time,

267
00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:14,719
you need to-

268
00:12:14,719 --> 00:12:16,400
But wouldn't we already see that though?

269
00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:17,239
Wouldn't we see that?

270
00:12:17,239 --> 00:12:18,080
No.

271
00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,559
Wouldn't we see that for people that did it?

272
00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:21,719
No, it was tripped early.

273
00:12:21,719 --> 00:12:25,440
I don't think, I think if they had set a block height prior,

274
00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:28,200
the block height hasn't come yet.

275
00:12:29,159 --> 00:12:32,359
I think they were expecting to have much more time

276
00:12:32,359 --> 00:12:34,760
to build up the effectiveness of the attack.

277
00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,200
So when the block time comes,

278
00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,440
you're saying that this-

279
00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:41,320
If I had to choose a block time,

280
00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:46,320
just picking one out of my hat as an evil genius.

281
00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,000
Bro, this is fucking beyond evil genius.

282
00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,919
This is like, this is taking it to a level where like,

283
00:12:52,919 --> 00:12:54,559
this is some CIA-

284
00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:56,520
I would pick block height one million.

285
00:12:58,440 --> 00:12:59,280
That's what I would pick.

286
00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:00,840
Oh, we got some time.

287
00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:01,679
Not much.

288
00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,119
That's a block height I'd pick.

289
00:13:04,119 --> 00:13:06,479
I'll take the other side of that.

290
00:13:06,479 --> 00:13:08,320
I'll take the other side of that.

291
00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:09,719
By the way, I agree.

292
00:13:09,719 --> 00:13:10,559
I agree.

293
00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:12,760
The likelihood of this being true,

294
00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,919
I believe is extremely, extremely, extremely low.

295
00:13:16,919 --> 00:13:17,760
I think it's probably-

296
00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:18,599
I'm not saying you can't have it

297
00:13:18,599 --> 00:13:20,880
with another hardware wallet in the future.

298
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,000
Like, you know, a CIA hardware wallet ready to run.

299
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:25,320
Like, you know, a much bigger one

300
00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:26,919
than fucking Coldcard, right?

301
00:13:26,919 --> 00:13:29,039
Like Coldcard did not have that many users.

302
00:13:29,359 --> 00:13:31,960
I think that, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised

303
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,039
if other ones have back doors and, you know,

304
00:13:34,039 --> 00:13:35,440
there's some funky shit that happens

305
00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:36,599
in the future at some point.

306
00:13:36,599 --> 00:13:40,320
But regardless, like, you know,

307
00:13:41,919 --> 00:13:42,760
this one was-

308
00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:43,599
Tails, baby.

309
00:13:43,599 --> 00:13:44,440
Yeah.

310
00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:45,280
Make Tails your president.

311
00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,880
This one was kind of a perfect setup for,

312
00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:52,640
especially for catching a lot of these, like,

313
00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:54,320
you know, pretty,

314
00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,280
what an intelligence agency might call high-risk individuals

315
00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:02,320
because it's a certain type of person

316
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,080
who would opt for a Coldcard versus a Ledger or Trezor.

317
00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:07,479
And those are the types of people you know

318
00:14:07,479 --> 00:14:10,080
are trying to escape the system and stay out forever.

319
00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:12,880
So those are the types of people you want to rug

320
00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:14,280
and nuke their privacy.

321
00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:17,000
You understand?

322
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:18,000
I was just trying to figure out

323
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:18,840
what you were trying to say.

324
00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:19,679
I was trying to figure out

325
00:14:19,679 --> 00:14:20,520
what you were trying to say.

326
00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:21,359
I was trying to figure out

327
00:14:21,359 --> 00:14:22,200
what you were trying to say.

328
00:14:22,359 --> 00:14:23,840
You understand?

329
00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:25,520
I was just trying to roll some dice

330
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:26,479
with a hardware wallet.

331
00:14:26,479 --> 00:14:27,640
That's all I was trying to do.

332
00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,239
I think the other aspect of this-

333
00:14:30,239 --> 00:14:31,679
55!

334
00:14:31,679 --> 00:14:33,320
The other aspect of this,

335
00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,239
which I think is,

336
00:14:35,239 --> 00:14:37,520
I just heard of this one in the back channel.

337
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:38,840
So I won't say who said it,

338
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:40,359
but I thought it was a funny aspect

339
00:14:40,359 --> 00:14:42,559
because it's just, you know,

340
00:14:42,559 --> 00:14:44,960
heightening my paranoia, which I love.

341
00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,039
I love being paranoid if you can't tell.

342
00:14:48,039 --> 00:14:51,039
The block clock being a phone home-

343
00:14:51,039 --> 00:14:51,880
Yeah, that's funny.

344
00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:52,719
Yeah, that one.

345
00:14:52,719 --> 00:14:55,200
To correlate XPUBs with OGs

346
00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,080
so that they don't rug those guys

347
00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:58,440
like too early or something.

348
00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,080
I mean, obviously in the final leg of the attack,

349
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:02,200
whatever, block height one million,

350
00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:03,039
you rug everybody.

351
00:15:03,039 --> 00:15:05,559
You're trying to cause chaos and panic

352
00:15:05,559 --> 00:15:07,280
and you're trying to, you know,

353
00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,479
remove as much Bitcoin from the system as possible

354
00:15:09,479 --> 00:15:10,559
and whatever.

355
00:15:11,479 --> 00:15:12,799
But,

356
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,039
you know, what if you want to get fed a little bit?

357
00:15:15,039 --> 00:15:17,960
So you rug a little bit here and there, right?

358
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:19,640
Just a couple of fish here and there,

359
00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:21,280
a couple of minnows.

360
00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:25,440
Well, if you have lists of who bought block clocks

361
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,520
and then those block clocks are

362
00:15:30,159 --> 00:15:33,159
being associated with particular wallets

363
00:15:34,159 --> 00:15:35,479
based on IPs,

364
00:15:36,919 --> 00:15:39,200
then you're going to get fed a little bit, right?

365
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:41,359
Based on IPs

366
00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:45,200
and maybe based on key loggers

367
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:49,239
or who knows what else they could be putting in there.

368
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:54,479
Then at least, you know, leading up to it,

369
00:15:54,479 --> 00:15:56,719
you're not going to be rugging like Mr. Hoddle, right?

370
00:15:56,719 --> 00:15:59,119
If Mr. Hoddle was dumb enough not to take the precautions,

371
00:15:59,119 --> 00:16:02,320
but like Mr. Hoddle's caught up in the list of people

372
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,039
and you are trying to choose random ones

373
00:16:04,039 --> 00:16:05,520
to kind of rug along the way,

374
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:06,760
well, you're not going to rug Mr. Hoddle

375
00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:08,840
because, I mean, Mr. Hoddle doesn't have block clocks.

376
00:16:09,479 --> 00:16:11,719
So I'm like, maybe you don't rug Wicked, for example.

377
00:16:11,719 --> 00:16:13,559
Because if Wicked gets rugged,

378
00:16:13,559 --> 00:16:16,200
ain't nobody buying the Coldcard ever again, right?

379
00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,159
I'd be out there fucking preaching how Coldcard fucked me.

380
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,479
So you have to know like the people who have those products,

381
00:16:26,479 --> 00:16:28,719
especially if you're trying to rug little bits at a time,

382
00:16:28,719 --> 00:16:31,880
leading up to it and stay fed, right?

383
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:33,119
Yeah, Mandrake's one of them down there.

384
00:16:33,119 --> 00:16:35,359
It's definitely not going to rug Mandrake leading up to it.

385
00:16:35,359 --> 00:16:37,400
Hell no, that would be terrible.

386
00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:38,239
Can you imagine?

387
00:16:38,239 --> 00:16:40,640
Mandrake got rugged, game over, bro.

388
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,880
Anyways, I mean, I think the block clock

389
00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,239
could play kind of an interesting role

390
00:16:49,239 --> 00:16:53,080
in that it could cover their ass.

391
00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:54,719
But again, that's only if they're being greedy

392
00:16:54,719 --> 00:16:58,400
and trying to take a little bit along the way to get fed.

393
00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,400
I think that's risky to be doing that,

394
00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:03,440
but I mean, maybe they were, who knows?

395
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,560
And it's completely hypothetical.

396
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,719
They did sell thousands of fucking devices, right?

397
00:17:08,719 --> 00:17:09,880
Like they didn't make money.

398
00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:12,119
It's not like they weren't making anything.

399
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:13,079
They were profitable.

400
00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:16,640
They made very little, which is why NVK was always so,

401
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,280
that there were walls for making so much more.

402
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:24,599
I mean, they were peanuts, right?

403
00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:29,599
I mean, the fact that fucking Passport took their share

404
00:17:30,199 --> 00:17:32,719
and then fucking raised $30 million.

405
00:17:32,719 --> 00:17:35,280
Yeah, $20 million, that probably definitely

406
00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:36,319
fucking pissed them off.

407
00:17:37,079 --> 00:17:39,400
But still, I pissed them off by a lot, for sure.

408
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,000
Yeah, I mean, can you imagine, right?

409
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:43,119
That's how it all got started.

410
00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:43,959
And let's be honest,

411
00:17:43,959 --> 00:17:46,079
if you've used one of these Passport devices,

412
00:17:46,079 --> 00:17:47,719
especially their newest one,

413
00:17:47,719 --> 00:17:51,920
it feels like a fucking modern solid device.

414
00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:53,839
Whereas your Coldcard feels like a piece of shit,

415
00:17:53,839 --> 00:17:57,239
plastic fucking like calculator, right?

416
00:17:57,239 --> 00:17:59,319
Some weird, I mean, it's cool.

417
00:17:59,319 --> 00:18:00,160
I like it, right?

418
00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:01,640
I like it.

419
00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,560
The firmware, that software side of things is pretty dope.

420
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,199
It has a lot of features,

421
00:18:06,199 --> 00:18:09,760
like the advanced feeling of it when you're using it.

422
00:18:10,839 --> 00:18:11,680
But when you hold it,

423
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:13,400
this thing's a fucking piece of shit,

424
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,560
and it breaks all the time.

425
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:17,719
I mean, there's room for the market

426
00:18:17,719 --> 00:18:20,599
or have Coldcard features,

427
00:18:20,599 --> 00:18:23,400
but a bad-ass, like bad-ass hardware,

428
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,719
like a fucking nice hardware,

429
00:18:27,719 --> 00:18:29,719
but you need the features, right?

430
00:18:29,719 --> 00:18:32,239
People want the power users need those features.

431
00:18:32,239 --> 00:18:33,520
You know what you could probably do at some point

432
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,479
in the not-too-distant future?

433
00:18:35,479 --> 00:18:37,439
You could probably point Kimi and say,

434
00:18:37,439 --> 00:18:40,760
hey, I really like all the features in Coldcard.

435
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,680
Can you safely translate that into a firmware

436
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,599
that I can flash onto my Prime?

437
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,959
Well, they have an SDK for Rust apps.

438
00:18:52,959 --> 00:18:56,239
I put all my shit on Prime last week,

439
00:18:56,239 --> 00:18:59,880
so if I get fucked over, I'll tell you first.

440
00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:02,839
Isn't the Prime, like it feels pretty fucking nice?

441
00:19:03,079 --> 00:19:05,160
Yeah, it's definitely, it's got weight to it

442
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,319
for like its size, it's very weighty.

443
00:19:07,319 --> 00:19:08,920
It's got, it's metal.

444
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:10,760
I mean, it feels nice, yeah, it's definitely.

445
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:12,040
If I get a job at Foundation,

446
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,239
I will shill the fuck out of this product, I'm just kidding.

447
00:19:15,239 --> 00:19:17,040
Well, I mean, I, yeah, I mean,

448
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,599
I does feel it's the nicest one I've had.

449
00:19:19,599 --> 00:19:22,800
Like it's the nicest, I had a Ledger for a while

450
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,680
until it looked really bad, and I was like, fuck that.

451
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,119
And then I bought the old Passport, I bought it.

452
00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:29,959
Like I got this new-

453
00:19:29,959 --> 00:19:31,160
Yeah, the old Passport's nice too.

454
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,839
I mean, that one, you know, you can tell they're kind of,

455
00:19:33,839 --> 00:19:36,640
they've been iterating, and like that one's nice.

456
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,119
I like that it has, you know, like the battery in the back

457
00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,359
that you can take out, and the magnets and everything.

458
00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:45,599
It's solid and metal on the inside.

459
00:19:45,599 --> 00:19:49,560
And then, anyways, I mean, they definitely have a good,

460
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,880
good designer, whoever's designing those products,

461
00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,319
like knows how to design products for, you know, normies.

462
00:20:00,249 --> 00:20:05,889
Because I'll just admit it, I'm a normie when it comes to, like, product design. I'm like, ooh, heavy, shiny.

463
00:20:06,849 --> 00:20:19,128
Yo, Wicked, yeah, Luka Buka is my favorite these days. In this XFIL attack you're talking about, would using something like Sparrow, which I know has a feature to help prevent that, do anything?

464
00:20:20,128 --> 00:20:42,129
So Sparrow, as far as I know, does not have a feature to prevent that. But what you could do, if you were really- I mean, this is what I will be doing, as a matter of fact, I'm not going to be holding any Bitcoin on these devices, but I am going to be putting the same seed phrase on one Coldcard, which I've flashed the firmware on, and one Coldcard, which still has the originally shipped firmware.

465
00:20:42,129 --> 00:21:02,129
And periodically, I'm going to be- well, I guess I do have to have a little Bitcoin to kind of make a transaction, so maybe I'll put, like, a thousand sats in there, whatever. Periodically, I'll be creating a transaction and signing with both devices, and then seeing if the signatures have mismatches, right?

466
00:21:02,129 --> 00:21:04,128
Then you'll have to figure out which one's the bottom.

467
00:21:32,128 --> 00:21:48,128
What you can never prove, right, or even verify, is what the shipped firmware is doing. Shipped firmware could be doing whatever the fuck you want, whatever the fuck they want. So, like, that's the reason why it's important to flash firmware on your device when you get it.

468
00:21:48,128 --> 00:21:59,128
And I can confirm with you that I never flashed the firmware when I got mine. So, like, everybody did it? Like, no, dude, we just, like, went with the fucking program.

469
00:21:59,128 --> 00:22:09,129
Exactly. So now I'm going to get Shinobi up here to tell me how retarded I am, and to probably get off of Spaces.

470
00:22:09,129 --> 00:22:29,129
The one thing with Foundation that was- I found a bug and filed it. It wasn't a bug, like a security bug, but I got the prime- Zach sent me one because we were just talking about doing other stuff, like identity stuff with it, because you can- it does, like, 2FA. It does a little bit more than just Bitcoin stuff.

471
00:22:29,129 --> 00:22:37,129
We can't wait until we finally live in this hyper-Bitcoin-esque world, dude. Jesus Christ, Daniel. So build that shit, bro.

472
00:22:37,129 --> 00:22:54,129
I know, we're working on it, but there was one bug where- it wasn't technically a bug, it was just really bad UX. I booted it up and it needed a firmware- it was trying to do a firmware update. It's like, okay, we're going through this update, and you had to update it before it would let you create your new seed and stuff on it.

473
00:22:54,129 --> 00:23:14,129
And it failed every time. It just kept failing, and I was like, what the fuck is wrong with this thing? And it was because it had- you used the companion app and it had Tor on. And I guess for whatever reason, Tor downloading the file was the one thing Tor was fucking bad at, so that's why I kept failing.

474
00:23:14,129 --> 00:23:29,129
And I talked to him once, and he was like, yeah, just turn Tor off just for the download thing. It'll work. Because the error is super generic, you would never know. And so I did it, and immediately it worked. And I was just like, fuck, okay.

475
00:23:29,129 --> 00:23:44,129
That's cool how they have the- you saw in the settings, I'm sure you already know, the settings where you can just see the logs on the device itself. Not that that's particularly useful, but it is just cool to watch.

476
00:23:44,129 --> 00:23:55,129
Yeah, yeah, it was nice. The error message could have been- he was like, that's the only thing we ever get. He was like, we just gotta put something in the next update, and I guess there they are.

477
00:23:55,129 --> 00:24:02,129
Hey Wicked, question for you. Do you think it's odd how many products they actually were able to come up with, with such a small team?

478
00:24:02,129 --> 00:24:08,129
No, not really. Not that many.

479
00:24:09,129 --> 00:24:12,129
Also a janky plastic piece of shit.

480
00:24:12,129 --> 00:24:18,129
How many people do you need, man? You're like, alright, we're gonna grab the worst fucking function.

481
00:24:18,129 --> 00:24:33,129
Yeah, you see those Ledger and Trezor, they're much bigger companies, and they've got a very slim product line, where these guys were making like 10 different things, from the Opendime to the Tapsigner. They must have been outsourcing the hardware and software to some degree as well, I would imagine.

482
00:24:33,129 --> 00:24:45,129
Oh yeah, it felt like Teemu though. You could probably do a few of these. Especially if you're using form factors, I don't know, is there a custom form factor, Wicked, like the actual housing?

483
00:24:46,129 --> 00:25:07,129
I mean, yeah, I think so. Especially, well, maybe not for the, I would imagine, maybe the mark, like 3, 4, 5, and lower, this is the mark number. Products seem to be pretty generic, it's just like a fucking calculator basically.

484
00:25:07,129 --> 00:25:20,129
But I think the Qs started to have a little bit more custom form factor. One thing, so one hole to punch in this evil genius theory, and one reason why you wouldn't necessarily...

485
00:25:20,129 --> 00:25:26,129
What are you talking about? They're all custom PCBs, and like form factor designs.

486
00:25:26,129 --> 00:25:31,129
No, I'm sorry, I was talking about the case, but Daniel, what were you talking about?

487
00:25:31,129 --> 00:25:35,129
I was just talking about the case, I wonder if they ever used, I couldn't recall what it was like.

488
00:25:35,129 --> 00:25:45,129
It's a big question with those two, dude. I literally have a fucking prototype of a Coldcard case that never got busted off the 3D printer spine.

489
00:25:46,129 --> 00:25:51,129
Okay, so I guess they did then. Yeah, of course they did. What am I even talking about?

490
00:25:52,129 --> 00:26:16,129
Anyways, one of the holes to punch in this evil genius thing is like, as you scale and start producing more hardware, it gets increasingly riskier and riskier to flash the malware onto it because you have to trust more people to do that without them keeping records of that malware.

491
00:26:17,129 --> 00:26:21,129
And then actually getting leaked at some point.

492
00:26:23,129 --> 00:26:40,129
That's just one thing to consider. If it's one dude building all these devices in his garage and he can do whatever he wants, if it's a couple, then you could probably keep that locked down, but once you get to a larger team who's building the hardware, then it becomes riskier to contain.

493
00:26:40,129 --> 00:26:52,129
That is all I would say in terms of just the risks associated with this and some holes to punch into the theory, which again I think is a fairly flimsy, like I think it would be probably the most optimal way to cause the most chaos.

494
00:26:53,129 --> 00:27:15,129
If some evil genius could actually plan this whole thing out, which I don't even know if it's possible. I guess it's a very crazy idea. And even the RNG exploit itself is just so wildly obscure that it's hard to believe someone could plan that themselves and that wasn't just a bug.

495
00:27:16,129 --> 00:27:25,129
It also happened to slice perfectly in the math that avoided collisions, but also brute forcible. So that's unique.

496
00:27:27,129 --> 00:27:31,129
Before the RNG was enough to avoid collisions.

497
00:27:32,129 --> 00:27:56,129
We've confirmed that the RNG that was used was indeed the default from the MicroPython module. So that wasn't something that Peter fine-tuned, it was just what was given. That actually was, it looks like, just a coincidence. So that did quell some of my paranoia and probably should for you too as well.

498
00:27:57,129 --> 00:28:02,129
You should listen to fucking Shinobi, he's always fucking right.

499
00:28:03,129 --> 00:28:07,129
Well, I wouldn't, I mean, hey, wait until Block High 1 million and we'll see who's right.

500
00:28:09,129 --> 00:28:12,129
Do you like my video, Wicked? Do you like that?

501
00:28:13,129 --> 00:28:17,129
I sent mine off to Portland today. They're in transit.

502
00:28:19,129 --> 00:28:21,129
I sent mine off to Portland today.

503
00:28:22,129 --> 00:28:24,129
I sent mine off to Portland today.

504
00:28:25,129 --> 00:28:27,129
I sent mine off to Portland today.

505
00:28:28,129 --> 00:28:30,129
I sent mine off to Portland today.

506
00:28:31,129 --> 00:28:33,129
I sent mine off to Portland today.

507
00:28:34,129 --> 00:28:36,129
I sent mine off to Portland today.

508
00:28:37,129 --> 00:28:39,129
I sent mine off to Portland today.

509
00:28:39,129 --> 00:28:41,129
They're in transit.

510
00:28:43,129 --> 00:28:51,129
Portland's gonna have them by Thursday and start doing a bunch of tests on them to see if, you know, if they're in me.

511
00:28:52,129 --> 00:28:54,129
If they glow in the dark?

512
00:28:55,129 --> 00:28:56,129
Mm-hmm, yep.

513
00:28:57,129 --> 00:29:04,129
Dude, I really do fucking Jesus Christ want Portland to write some better firmware for this thing.

514
00:29:05,129 --> 00:29:11,129
Like, oh my God, dude, like that, like this thing looks fucking nice, but holy fuck.

515
00:29:12,129 --> 00:29:19,129
Is this like the boggiest, most unstable fucking like software I've ever fucking run on anything?

516
00:29:20,129 --> 00:29:21,129
Holy fucking shit.

517
00:29:22,129 --> 00:29:23,129
What are you talking about?

518
00:29:24,129 --> 00:29:28,129
Their focus was elsewhere when they were working on that product.

519
00:29:29,129 --> 00:29:34,129
They put like really solid work into the hardware for the block clocks and then the software.

520
00:29:35,129 --> 00:29:36,129
They're like, this doesn't manage money.

521
00:29:37,129 --> 00:29:42,129
Zero fucks given, slop, and then just like back to the fucking Coldcard shit.

522
00:29:42,129 --> 00:29:43,129
Cold card shit.

523
00:29:48,129 --> 00:29:49,129
Breaks all the time.

524
00:29:50,129 --> 00:29:51,129
Fucking control.

525
00:29:52,129 --> 00:29:53,129
Fucking.

526
00:29:55,129 --> 00:29:59,129
Portland keep the micro for his troubles and then ask for the mini back.

527
00:30:00,129 --> 00:30:02,129
I mean, it wasn't bugged, but even if it was bugged, maybe I still want it back.

528
00:30:03,129 --> 00:30:05,129
I'll just tell him to fix that.

529
00:30:06,129 --> 00:30:07,129
To debug it and re-bug it?

530
00:30:08,129 --> 00:30:09,129
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

531
00:30:09,129 --> 00:30:10,129
Yeah.

532
00:30:11,129 --> 00:30:12,129
Can you imagine?

533
00:30:14,129 --> 00:30:16,129
The chaos and panic that would ensue.

534
00:30:17,129 --> 00:30:35,129
Dude, you know that like if Portland didn't think of this himself, I am going to put the idea of him tweaking the firmware with a custom build just to make it high-wicked on the screen.

535
00:30:36,129 --> 00:30:37,129
Just high-wicked.

536
00:30:38,129 --> 00:30:39,129
No, I see what you're saying.

537
00:30:40,129 --> 00:30:41,129
Hey, Paul is in the audience.

538
00:30:42,129 --> 00:30:43,129
Can we bring him up and talk about the spork?

539
00:30:44,129 --> 00:30:45,129
Yeah, yeah.

540
00:30:46,129 --> 00:30:47,129
The spork.

541
00:30:48,129 --> 00:30:49,129
You got to go from the fork to the spork.

542
00:30:50,129 --> 00:30:59,129
By the way, Wicked, it looks like Sparrow has some integration, like some anti-klepto protection specifically for BitBox, where there's some type of host nonce that it does.

543
00:31:00,129 --> 00:31:06,129
Bitbox has that already implemented on their hardware, so I think there's ways, you know.

544
00:31:07,129 --> 00:31:09,129
It's cool that Sparrow's already doing that with that device.

545
00:31:10,129 --> 00:31:11,129
Hey, Paul.

546
00:31:12,129 --> 00:31:13,129
What's up, man?

547
00:31:14,129 --> 00:31:15,129
Am I allowed to call it the spork?

548
00:31:16,129 --> 00:31:23,129
It's a pedophile unless they support the eCash forks pedophile and child rapist and murderer.

549
00:31:24,129 --> 00:31:25,129
Am I doing it right?

550
00:31:26,129 --> 00:31:27,129
Will I get attention now?

551
00:31:28,129 --> 00:31:29,129
Can we officially call it the spork?

552
00:31:30,129 --> 00:31:31,129
Can we have your blessing?

553
00:31:32,129 --> 00:31:33,129
Yeah, I like that.

554
00:31:34,129 --> 00:31:35,129
Alright, that's going to be it from now on, the spork.

555
00:31:36,129 --> 00:31:44,129
My entire life, as you can imagine, has been like, you check in at a hotel and they're like, oh, yes, Mr.

556
00:31:45,129 --> 00:31:47,129
Then like a long pause and you just think, what are they going to try?

557
00:31:48,129 --> 00:31:51,129
Like I've heard, I've heard many, I've heard many versions.

558
00:31:52,129 --> 00:31:53,129
Can you change it?

559
00:31:54,129 --> 00:31:55,129
Sometimes I just call it the spork.

560
00:31:56,129 --> 00:32:02,129
That's a good, you know, actually, in high school, as you know, there was a pause because a lot of people in Bitcoin call me this.

561
00:32:02,129 --> 00:32:06,129
There's a Paul Sztorc because it actually the C is pronounced starts.

562
00:32:07,129 --> 00:32:08,129
The Polish C is a different letter.

563
00:32:09,129 --> 00:32:13,129
So people call me Paul Sztorc, even though it's not that sporty in high school.

564
00:32:14,129 --> 00:32:15,129
But it was at least.

565
00:32:16,129 --> 00:32:17,129
It was just you want to know.

566
00:32:18,129 --> 00:32:20,129
OK, it was simpler for everyone involved.

567
00:32:22,129 --> 00:32:23,129
Right.

568
00:32:23,129 --> 00:32:24,129
So it's pretty good.

569
00:32:24,129 --> 00:32:25,129
How do you say your last name?

570
00:32:26,129 --> 00:32:27,129
It's just stored.

571
00:32:27,129 --> 00:32:28,129
The C is a different letter.

572
00:32:29,129 --> 00:32:30,129
If you care in Polish and it's a T.S.

573
00:32:30,129 --> 00:32:34,129
Sound like a baby carrying bird, like a baby carrying bird.

574
00:32:35,129 --> 00:32:40,129
The work is that's a common meme in our like cousin group chat and stuff and people put like stork.

575
00:32:41,129 --> 00:32:51,129
Like that's a lot of people's like fake, you know, like when you become an adult and you make like a Facebook, but you don't use your real name because people like teachers or something.

576
00:32:51,129 --> 00:32:54,129
So some people do like stork or strock or something.

577
00:32:55,129 --> 00:32:56,129
They do like weird stuff like that.

578
00:32:56,129 --> 00:32:57,129
In case you guys care.

579
00:32:57,129 --> 00:32:58,129
This is now Paul.

580
00:32:59,129 --> 00:33:01,129
Fork season's off to a riveting start.

581
00:33:01,129 --> 00:33:02,129
When is the P cash fork?

582
00:33:04,129 --> 00:33:05,129
This 23rd.

583
00:33:05,129 --> 00:33:08,129
But since people are very confused, what I thought was I do it in stages.

584
00:33:09,129 --> 00:33:11,129
So this one is no trading.

585
00:33:12,129 --> 00:33:18,129
OK, no warm up at work time so that I don't owe any fucking taxes because of you.

586
00:33:18,129 --> 00:33:19,129
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

587
00:33:19,129 --> 00:33:20,129
What date did you say?

588
00:33:20,129 --> 00:33:21,129
Is it is it a block height?

589
00:33:22,129 --> 00:33:23,129
It is a block.

590
00:33:24,129 --> 00:33:25,129
What's the block height?

591
00:33:25,129 --> 00:33:29,129
The block height two weeks after the one ten, whatever.

592
00:33:30,129 --> 00:33:32,129
It's the next difficulty coming up.

593
00:33:32,129 --> 00:33:37,129
And but there's that's the alpha practice and the beta practice September 20th approximately.

594
00:33:37,129 --> 00:33:41,129
And then the real one will be six weeks, three after that on Halloween.

595
00:33:41,129 --> 00:33:44,129
So I thought it's kind of ready to go in the technical sense.

596
00:33:44,129 --> 00:33:51,129
But I don't think people are ready in a in a integration sense.

597
00:33:51,129 --> 00:33:54,129
So I thought we'll boil the frog a little bit.

598
00:33:55,129 --> 00:33:57,129
This one is it will still everything.

599
00:33:57,129 --> 00:34:04,129
Well, it'll be trying to resemble the real network in every way, but it will be fundamentally a test.

600
00:34:04,129 --> 00:34:17,129
So it'll be like kind of an opportunity for everyone to just check, you know, try to test your coin splitting and eCash dumping strategies so that with the real fork goes, you can you can quickly dump it all.

601
00:34:20,129 --> 00:34:22,129
As quickly as you as quickly as you want.

602
00:34:22,129 --> 00:34:28,129
So you can practice with this September one as an incentive to get people to buy the practice one.

603
00:34:28,129 --> 00:34:34,129
If you somehow manage to accumulate a thousand, you can turn those in for for ten real ones.

604
00:34:35,129 --> 00:34:42,129
And then for the October for the September one, if you accumulate a thousand of the test fork, you can turn those in for 20 real ones.

605
00:34:42,129 --> 00:34:45,129
How many do I need to get a commemorative spork?

606
00:34:46,129 --> 00:34:49,129
Like, do we like sign?

607
00:34:49,129 --> 00:34:53,129
So I go, should I do this kind of lining up?

608
00:34:53,129 --> 00:34:59,129
So like a TABConf, should I do like, yes, I find a box of sporks and sign the handle.

609
00:34:59,129 --> 00:35:04,129
And then, oh, my God, you know, I got to get like, we need to get like some other big ones we can get somewhere.

610
00:35:04,129 --> 00:35:07,129
Like, I don't know why anyone would have everything.

611
00:35:07,129 --> 00:35:12,129
I will find you some big sporks if this is the case, I think, because it'll be right.

612
00:35:12,129 --> 00:35:17,129
Because I think the final TABConf is in October, October, October 21st.

613
00:35:18,129 --> 00:35:20,129
It'll be very close.

614
00:35:20,129 --> 00:35:23,129
Well, like the 12th, it's going to be a banger.

615
00:35:23,129 --> 00:35:28,129
So that'll be that'll be the end of all the end of cash.

616
00:35:28,129 --> 00:35:32,129
I'm just curious because that would have been way more memetic.

617
00:35:32,129 --> 00:35:34,129
Well, that's a good point.

618
00:35:34,129 --> 00:35:38,129
I think, you know, you want to pick a name where if it went.

619
00:35:38,129 --> 00:35:42,129
You want to plan for success and plan for like if it hit eight billion people.

620
00:35:42,129 --> 00:35:47,129
So that was kind of the idea was not let the name be a roadblock.

621
00:35:48,129 --> 00:35:52,129
And just pick a generic name, you know, like email.

622
00:35:52,129 --> 00:35:54,129
I think it's a great name.

623
00:35:54,129 --> 00:35:56,129
So it's a good name.

624
00:35:56,129 --> 00:35:57,129
Names are hard.

625
00:35:57,129 --> 00:36:02,129
And I noticed that from what I you guys just spend all your time in spaces all day.

626
00:36:02,129 --> 00:36:04,129
No one seems to have anything to do.

627
00:36:05,129 --> 00:36:08,129
Between you and Stu TXO.

628
00:36:08,129 --> 00:36:11,129
And it's like everyone's just constantly in spaces.

629
00:36:11,129 --> 00:36:13,129
No one has like a real job, which is great.

630
00:36:16,129 --> 00:36:19,129
But I wonder we haven't heard Luke's name.

631
00:36:19,129 --> 00:36:21,129
And actually naming things is pretty hard.

632
00:36:21,129 --> 00:36:22,129
Maybe you guys know what it is.

633
00:36:22,129 --> 00:36:25,129
But my name is George.

634
00:36:27,129 --> 00:36:29,129
No, no one docs for Luke.

635
00:36:29,129 --> 00:36:31,129
He's been through enough.

636
00:36:31,129 --> 00:36:32,129
It's like Gollum.

637
00:36:32,129 --> 00:36:33,129
We have to just feel bad for him.

638
00:36:33,129 --> 00:36:36,129
You know, I think.

639
00:36:37,129 --> 00:36:39,129
But what is the name going to be of the 110 fork?

640
00:36:39,129 --> 00:36:40,129
Does anyone know?

641
00:36:40,129 --> 00:36:42,129
I don't think anyone does.

642
00:36:43,129 --> 00:36:44,129
No, no, no.

643
00:36:45,129 --> 00:36:46,129
Indeed.

644
00:36:46,129 --> 00:36:47,129
So Mr.

645
00:36:47,129 --> 00:36:49,129
Hoddle's in the back channel discord.

646
00:36:49,129 --> 00:36:52,129
Apparently they're talking about calling it the money.

647
00:36:55,129 --> 00:36:57,129
I think that you call it the big Dombrowski coin.

648
00:37:00,129 --> 00:37:01,129
I mean, I see that.

649
00:37:01,129 --> 00:37:05,129
In my head, I'm seeing that AI movie play right now.

650
00:37:05,129 --> 00:37:07,129
He's like, oh, I needed that BIP-110.

651
00:37:07,129 --> 00:37:09,129
It really tied the chain together.

652
00:37:11,129 --> 00:37:12,129
And he's like, come on, man.

653
00:37:14,129 --> 00:37:15,129
That was my my BIP.

654
00:37:17,129 --> 00:37:18,129
Door asking people.

655
00:37:18,129 --> 00:37:20,129
And then filters.

656
00:37:22,129 --> 00:37:23,129
Who would be the guy?

657
00:37:23,129 --> 00:37:25,129
Would it be mechanic or crater?

658
00:37:25,129 --> 00:37:26,129
Crater would be the guy.

659
00:37:26,129 --> 00:37:28,129
Am I the only one who cares about the rules?

660
00:37:29,129 --> 00:37:30,129
Or maybe I'd be like Adam back.

661
00:37:30,129 --> 00:37:32,129
You could flip it around and be like stop.

662
00:37:33,129 --> 00:37:37,129
Like this is like a movie that maps to like any meme.

663
00:37:37,129 --> 00:37:39,129
And you're like killing it.

664
00:37:39,129 --> 00:37:43,129
You're just beating it to death and like ruining that magical.

665
00:37:44,129 --> 00:37:48,129
But the point I was trying to make is naming things is actually pretty hard.

666
00:37:48,129 --> 00:37:50,129
So just because they're talking about calling it the money.

667
00:37:51,129 --> 00:37:55,129
That doesn't mean that like, you know, because then you got to worry about, oh,

668
00:37:55,129 --> 00:37:56,129
is the domain available?

669
00:37:56,129 --> 00:37:59,129
What you know, what, if anything is available, like what kind of like you

670
00:37:59,129 --> 00:38:02,129
got to set up your GitHub, your email and all your stuff.

671
00:38:02,129 --> 00:38:06,129
You know, it's actually I think it's actually kind of hard, actually.

672
00:38:07,129 --> 00:38:10,129
And so I think it's it's a huge disadvantage for Luke to be trying to

673
00:38:10,129 --> 00:38:13,129
plan it out in advance when you got people like Mr.

674
00:38:13,129 --> 00:38:17,129
Hata, like spying it out and it's all undecided and they want to launch

675
00:38:17,129 --> 00:38:18,129
September 1st.

676
00:38:18,129 --> 00:38:21,129
And so I think that would be really hard.

677
00:38:21,129 --> 00:38:25,129
You definitely want, you know, when people name a child, they usually never

678
00:38:25,129 --> 00:38:28,129
tell anyone until the child is born because they want it to be like a

679
00:38:28,129 --> 00:38:29,129
fait accompli.

680
00:38:29,129 --> 00:38:31,129
You know, they want it to be like it's an accomplished fact.

681
00:38:31,129 --> 00:38:32,129
It's a done deal.

682
00:38:33,129 --> 00:38:34,129
No more negotiating.

683
00:38:34,129 --> 00:38:35,129
No more weighing in.

684
00:38:35,129 --> 00:38:36,129
No more complaining.

685
00:38:36,129 --> 00:38:37,129
No more bike shedding.

686
00:38:37,129 --> 00:38:38,129
Everyone's got an opinion.

687
00:38:38,129 --> 00:38:40,129
You know, meet Bob.

688
00:38:42,129 --> 00:38:43,129
Sorry.

689
00:38:43,129 --> 00:38:44,129
Meet Bob.

690
00:38:47,129 --> 00:38:48,129
Meet Bob.

691
00:38:48,129 --> 00:38:50,129
Is that someone who's bike shedding?

692
00:38:53,129 --> 00:38:54,129
I didn't I didn't understand that.

693
00:38:55,129 --> 00:38:56,129
Goddamn it.

694
00:38:57,129 --> 00:38:59,129
He's I don't think he's trying to be deep.

695
00:38:59,129 --> 00:39:01,129
Or is that a what about Bob joke?

696
00:39:01,129 --> 00:39:02,129
I don't know.

697
00:39:02,129 --> 00:39:03,129
I can't even tell.

698
00:39:03,129 --> 00:39:04,129
I'm right there with Paul, actually.

699
00:39:04,129 --> 00:39:05,129
I don't know the fuck's going on.

700
00:39:05,129 --> 00:39:06,129
Yeah.

701
00:39:07,129 --> 00:39:08,129
How did we end up here, Daniel?

702
00:39:08,129 --> 00:39:09,129
That's what I asked myself.

703
00:39:09,129 --> 00:39:10,129
I just saw you in the thing.

704
00:39:10,129 --> 00:39:13,129
I knew this work was coming and I'm pretty invested in me.

705
00:39:13,129 --> 00:39:17,129
I did the whole thing in Gemini with the little picture and I thought it

706
00:39:17,129 --> 00:39:18,129
was pretty funny.

707
00:39:18,129 --> 00:39:21,129
So I just wanted to make sure that you were you were approved.

708
00:39:21,129 --> 00:39:22,129
You knew it was light hearted.

709
00:39:22,129 --> 00:39:24,129
I wasn't trying to go after you.

710
00:39:24,129 --> 00:39:25,129
The spork thing.

711
00:39:25,129 --> 00:39:27,129
Well, yeah, I think that's fine.

712
00:39:27,129 --> 00:39:31,129
I mean, obviously, I knew when you propose a hard fork of Bitcoin, you're

713
00:39:31,129 --> 00:39:35,129
signing up for a certain amount of like fun, deranged hatred.

714
00:39:36,129 --> 00:39:37,129
But that's OK.

715
00:39:39,129 --> 00:39:40,129
Yeah.

716
00:39:40,129 --> 00:39:41,129
Yeah.

717
00:39:41,129 --> 00:39:43,129
I'm definitely going to come to TopGolf if we do this.

718
00:39:43,129 --> 00:39:46,129
I mean, I do think a lot of things, you know, sometimes I think about the

719
00:39:46,129 --> 00:39:49,129
110 fork and I just think this is just so bizarre because it's like the

720
00:39:49,129 --> 00:39:50,129
opposite of everything.

721
00:39:51,129 --> 00:39:53,129
Like I always knew that.

722
00:39:54,129 --> 00:39:58,129
You know, you present people with the BIP300 activator, that's what 51

723
00:39:58,129 --> 00:39:59,129
percent would activate.

724
00:39:59,129 --> 00:40:00,129
So that's the soft fork option.

725
00:40:00,129 --> 00:40:02,129
And then eCash is sort of like, OK, if you turn the.

726
00:40:03,574 --> 00:40:12,574
Soft fork down, then obviously it's because you don't have 51 percent hashrate support, so that was like obvious to me, OK, the hard fork is what you do when you don't have the hashrate.

727
00:40:12,574 --> 00:40:18,454
And bizarrely, with Bitcoin Cash, they had with SegWit2x, they had 83 percent of the hashrate.

728
00:40:18,454 --> 00:40:26,453
So if they had done a mandatory extension block to increase the block size, then the large blockers would have won the block size war.

729
00:40:26,694 --> 00:40:29,133
So every single time it just seems bizarre to me.

730
00:40:29,133 --> 00:40:34,494
I just think, OK, why didn't they why didn't the large blockers do the mandatory extension block?

731
00:40:34,494 --> 00:40:37,094
Because they had 83 percent hashrate signing SegWit2x.

732
00:40:37,094 --> 00:40:47,294
Why did Luke insist on a soft fork when they had two percent or really half a percent of hashrate for the soft fork?

733
00:40:47,294 --> 00:40:51,134
And then so it's just like now they're doing the hard fork, but they don't have any of this stuff.

734
00:40:51,134 --> 00:40:56,974
Freaked out the name, the brand, the hard fork is also I think it's way worse than Bitcoin Cash.

735
00:40:57,294 --> 00:40:59,853
I mean, I presumably hear people here would agree.

736
00:40:59,853 --> 00:41:03,173
I don't maybe it's going to be worse than BSV, in my opinion.

737
00:41:03,173 --> 00:41:07,054
I think I completely agree like that.

738
00:41:07,294 --> 00:41:13,934
Even Bitcoin Cash was like, OK, at least we get to see this experiment with eight megabyte blocks and then later 32 megabyte and then whatever.

739
00:41:14,173 --> 00:41:16,493
So we get a little bit of competition.

740
00:41:16,894 --> 00:41:26,054
And then with Bitcoin SV, I also thought it had scientific value in the sense of like, OK, we can see like, here's what happens if you uncap the block size.

741
00:41:26,574 --> 00:41:33,853
I just can't imagine a dude doing a fork and legitimately like Craig Wright being like, now that dude's weird.

742
00:41:34,014 --> 00:41:35,374
You know what I mean? Like, fuck.

743
00:41:35,374 --> 00:41:39,694
I know that would be so funny if he if he like joined the space right now or before.

744
00:41:39,694 --> 00:41:44,493
That would have been so ingenious, like just from like a branding marketing.

745
00:41:44,894 --> 00:41:47,133
I feel like I feel like you lucked out like you.

746
00:41:47,374 --> 00:41:50,254
You're they did such a bad job with one time.

747
00:41:50,254 --> 00:41:56,974
It actually makes your fork look like semi like, oh, wow, this is like totally not that bad, you know, Jesus.

748
00:41:57,894 --> 00:42:02,813
Yeah, I was kind of vaguely wondering like if I would become like the villain and get a lot of attention that way.

749
00:42:02,813 --> 00:42:10,093
But I totally there was a swing and a miss on that theory because Luke, he became like an even more crazed villain.

750
00:42:10,334 --> 00:42:17,053
And he was a much better villain than even I could probably be because because he's even more he's got even more Bitcoin clout.

751
00:42:17,734 --> 00:42:24,534
And he was like just saying even more deranged stuff like, of course, he was saying, of course, 110 will activate.

752
00:42:24,534 --> 00:42:26,654
Obviously, it will. Obviously, it has consensus.

753
00:42:27,014 --> 00:42:30,814
Obviously, the people who don't support it are in favor of CSAM.

754
00:42:30,814 --> 00:42:34,853
Obviously, he was just like he was just this he was just scoring these villain points.

755
00:42:35,213 --> 00:42:38,734
And I don't blame anyone for everyone's like, oh, we want to beat up.

756
00:42:38,734 --> 00:42:42,773
Do we want to beat up Luke, who is like this huge target?

757
00:42:43,413 --> 00:42:46,253
And he's like so antagonistic.

758
00:42:46,853 --> 00:42:49,253
And then it's like or.

759
00:42:49,253 --> 00:42:53,853
Do you want to come into the lion's den with Paul and talk about his obscure, weird Drivechain thing?

760
00:42:54,654 --> 00:42:56,094
People barely understand.

761
00:42:56,094 --> 00:43:01,853
I don't like minutes of silence instead.

762
00:43:03,094 --> 00:43:05,613
We were there.

763
00:43:05,654 --> 00:43:08,654
Can we do either of those things?

764
00:43:08,654 --> 00:43:12,174
So we're going to have to have this for just because I just want to.

765
00:43:12,493 --> 00:43:14,133
Well, I got to get him to sign the fucking spork.

766
00:43:14,133 --> 00:43:16,613
I guess we'll do it whether whether it happens or not.

767
00:43:16,613 --> 00:43:19,934
But I think it's, you know, it's all fun games.

768
00:43:19,973 --> 00:43:21,014
I mean, I get to dump.

769
00:43:21,014 --> 00:43:23,053
I mean, I'm fucking cool.

770
00:43:23,053 --> 00:43:24,654
I get to dump three times.

771
00:43:24,654 --> 00:43:26,413
I don't know who will list the way.

772
00:43:26,413 --> 00:43:32,454
I have an interesting plan for for liquidity and exchange integration.

773
00:43:32,454 --> 00:43:36,213
So. I'm hoping to be able to announce it very soon.

774
00:43:37,374 --> 00:43:39,493
But even still.

775
00:43:41,213 --> 00:43:43,814
Really, the main event is delayed till October.

776
00:43:44,333 --> 00:43:48,613
But like I said, I think it's because we really had lots and lots of questions

777
00:43:48,613 --> 00:43:51,773
about like things that I thought maybe we could explain better.

778
00:43:51,773 --> 00:43:53,094
People are like, oh, how do I mine?

779
00:43:53,094 --> 00:43:55,814
How do I whatever I was like, oh, I guess it's not really clear to people.

780
00:43:56,934 --> 00:44:01,094
So we were just late in like assembling something.

781
00:44:01,094 --> 00:44:02,734
Some stuff is not our fault.

782
00:44:02,734 --> 00:44:06,053
It's just related to like crazy app store stuff.

783
00:44:06,053 --> 00:44:10,014
And like there's lots of delays about like, who are the main actors?

784
00:44:10,133 --> 00:44:13,773
It's you and who who like LayerTwo Labs or every like

785
00:44:14,534 --> 00:44:21,014
volunteered to take the, you know, take the what you might call the I don't know,

786
00:44:21,014 --> 00:44:27,653
to like take the, you know, criticism for other people.

787
00:44:28,614 --> 00:44:30,853
But if you join, you can join the Telegram group.

788
00:44:30,853 --> 00:44:35,413
You can see there's about nine hundred twenty people

789
00:44:35,413 --> 00:44:39,734
in the Drivechain Telegram group, and then there's a group that's newer

790
00:44:40,054 --> 00:44:41,813
but has a few people.

791
00:44:41,813 --> 00:44:44,413
We did raise five million dollars worth of investment.

792
00:44:44,693 --> 00:44:48,494
So even though people don't really care, we'll get one of the five.

793
00:44:48,693 --> 00:44:51,973
What are they going to get the Satoshi's coins?

794
00:44:52,614 --> 00:44:54,454
Oh, shit.

795
00:44:56,214 --> 00:45:00,054
So I have so I know that the coin sold at some price.

796
00:45:01,853 --> 00:45:05,734
So I have so it's all above the Bitcoin SV price.

797
00:45:06,093 --> 00:45:07,294
So I was like, oh, that's good.

798
00:45:07,294 --> 00:45:10,973
Yeah. I mean, if we somehow came out ahead of Bitcoin Cash, I would think, well,

799
00:45:10,973 --> 00:45:12,853
we had the number one Bitcoin fork.

800
00:45:12,853 --> 00:45:16,133
So I don't know if that's in the cards, but I think

801
00:45:16,853 --> 00:45:18,973
actually Bitcoin Cash made a lot of mistakes.

802
00:45:18,973 --> 00:45:24,014
And actually, they were not a permanent solution to anything because,

803
00:45:24,413 --> 00:45:26,894
you know, they hard forked to expand the block size.

804
00:45:26,973 --> 00:45:29,214
But then they didn't.

805
00:45:29,214 --> 00:45:31,653
They would have had to keep hard forking to expand the block size.

806
00:45:31,653 --> 00:45:36,214
So no one thinks that the unlimited one full node cost is a good idea.

807
00:45:36,214 --> 00:45:38,853
And then they ran into the same developer capture problem

808
00:45:38,853 --> 00:45:40,614
that they said that they had.

809
00:45:40,614 --> 00:45:43,214
Like they were like, you know, whatever.

810
00:45:43,214 --> 00:45:45,853
We hate Bitcoin Core. We hate Greg Maxwell, whatever.

811
00:45:46,214 --> 00:45:48,413
Then they were like, oh, our own devs suck.

812
00:45:48,454 --> 00:45:49,253
We also hate them.

813
00:45:50,253 --> 00:45:51,413
We hate Omri or whatever.

814
00:45:51,413 --> 00:45:54,973
So they so they didn't solve any of their own problems permanently.

815
00:45:55,813 --> 00:45:59,494
And I have, you know, a lot of issues with.

816
00:46:00,494 --> 00:46:03,253
Bitcoin Cash, I think it's actually.

817
00:46:03,253 --> 00:46:04,454
Not that great.

818
00:46:04,454 --> 00:46:07,614
So I would hope to be better than that, and if we were,

819
00:46:07,614 --> 00:46:09,454
then that would be pretty cool.

820
00:46:09,454 --> 00:46:13,693
It's interesting how fall, you know, Bitcoin Cash and stuff has fallen so much.

821
00:46:14,813 --> 00:46:17,454
In terms of price, I haven't looked it up.

822
00:46:17,574 --> 00:46:21,054
I think it was like I don't know if it's like something like when the, you know,

823
00:46:21,894 --> 00:46:24,294
200 to 100 right now,

824
00:46:24,294 --> 00:46:27,214
when Bitcoin was like 50,000, 200,000, right?

825
00:46:27,653 --> 00:46:30,294
So you see like Bitcoin.

826
00:46:30,294 --> 00:46:36,214
Maybe like Bitcoin could be 100,000 Bitcoin Cash could be like whatever, like 500.

827
00:46:36,253 --> 00:46:39,253
So that's like less than that's like half a percent.

828
00:46:39,373 --> 00:46:43,133
So you can see like the number one Bitcoin fork is half a percent.

829
00:46:44,054 --> 00:46:46,533
Of and even the number one altcoin, which is Ethereum,

830
00:46:46,973 --> 00:46:50,734
is like less than 25 percent of BTC.

831
00:46:51,494 --> 00:46:53,853
So BTC really is the king.

832
00:46:53,853 --> 00:46:58,734
And actually, in one sense, maybe it's arrogant to try to beat Bitcoin Cash.

833
00:46:58,734 --> 00:47:01,214
But in another sense, I think that's really, really low bar.

834
00:47:01,214 --> 00:47:03,894
It's just half a you know, I'm just going to give people one percent,

835
00:47:03,973 --> 00:47:06,973
you know, on their Bitcoin, which is not very much.

836
00:47:07,334 --> 00:47:09,494
And that would be double Bitcoin Cash. Right.

837
00:47:09,494 --> 00:47:14,614
So I'd like to think that's because Bitcoin Cash is objectively not that good.

838
00:47:14,614 --> 00:47:16,933
But maybe mine would be even worse than that.

839
00:47:17,174 --> 00:47:18,454
So I don't know.

840
00:47:18,454 --> 00:47:20,294
Just trying to give you guys some free money.

841
00:47:20,294 --> 00:47:22,214
Also measuring from different places.

842
00:47:22,214 --> 00:47:24,894
Right. Because Bitcoin Cash started out as a much higher

843
00:47:25,614 --> 00:47:29,014
percentage and then and then dropped over time to that lower amount.

844
00:47:30,933 --> 00:47:34,533
That's right. And I think actually people should reflect on the fact that

845
00:47:35,653 --> 00:47:38,693
these hard forks, I think, could be really good for everyone,

846
00:47:38,693 --> 00:47:42,614
because when Bitcoin Cash first launched, it was something like 15 percent

847
00:47:43,093 --> 00:47:45,174
of BTC price. Yeah.

848
00:47:45,413 --> 00:47:48,774
So, I mean, that's not what I'm trying to say.

849
00:47:50,413 --> 00:47:55,294
But I think like there were a lot of forks after Bitcoin Cash,

850
00:47:55,294 --> 00:47:57,294
but these were mostly jokes. Right.

851
00:47:57,373 --> 00:47:59,813
So no one really expects like Bitcoin Gold, Bitcoin Diamond.

852
00:47:59,813 --> 00:48:01,614
They weren't really like about anything.

853
00:48:01,614 --> 00:48:04,093
There wasn't like a philosophical

854
00:48:04,093 --> 00:48:07,894
impetus or, you know, kind of rise in detra.

855
00:48:07,933 --> 00:48:10,334
There wasn't like a there wasn't a reason for the

856
00:48:11,894 --> 00:48:13,214
for those forks.

857
00:48:13,214 --> 00:48:17,253
So and then Bitcoin SV was a fork of Bitcoin Cash after like it had already

858
00:48:17,253 --> 00:48:18,973
fallen for years and years and years.

859
00:48:18,973 --> 00:48:21,933
So actually, we can't learn that much from,

860
00:48:22,734 --> 00:48:25,574
you know, Bitcoin Diamond, Bitcoin Private, Bitcoin, whatever,

861
00:48:25,853 --> 00:48:29,734
or even Bitcoin SV in terms of a political.

862
00:48:32,294 --> 00:48:36,574
Yes. Have you considered the unholy matrimony

863
00:48:36,894 --> 00:48:39,454
of going to Luke and saying, Luke,

864
00:48:40,173 --> 00:48:43,774
you can make your holy Drivechain like you.

865
00:48:43,854 --> 00:48:47,693
You come over here instead of the first drivechain.

866
00:48:48,014 --> 00:48:52,654
It can have Bible verses in every coin base and it'll be pristine.

867
00:48:53,253 --> 00:48:57,014
And we will we'll form this Voltron of sorts.

868
00:48:57,253 --> 00:48:58,894
Have you ever considered this?

869
00:48:58,894 --> 00:49:01,774
I have some people in the group actually propose that they say,

870
00:49:01,774 --> 00:49:04,173
oh, can we have a 110 on anything?

871
00:49:04,173 --> 00:49:05,613
That's why they're not going to get it.

872
00:49:05,613 --> 00:49:09,414
Well, I think some of it, some of the hatred comes from 2014, right?

873
00:49:09,414 --> 00:49:12,454
He lost the OP_RETURN wars back then for Counterparty.

874
00:49:12,733 --> 00:49:15,173
So this has been on his mind for like at least a decade.

875
00:49:16,293 --> 00:49:19,094
Unfortunately, I really think it was a big mistake to not.

876
00:49:19,094 --> 00:49:20,774
This is like throw the ring into the fire.

877
00:49:20,774 --> 00:49:23,094
Speaking of Gollum and metaphors,

878
00:49:23,373 --> 00:49:27,214
we should have really just uncapped the OP_RETURN the whole time

879
00:49:27,214 --> 00:49:29,214
because it planted this seed.

880
00:49:29,214 --> 00:49:31,053
Who would have known if someone had told you like, oh,

881
00:49:31,053 --> 00:49:35,373
we're going to lose all of two thousand twenty four through two thousand

882
00:49:35,373 --> 00:49:39,854
twenty six after two and twenty six talking about uncapping it?

883
00:49:40,574 --> 00:49:42,774
I don't think that.

884
00:49:43,334 --> 00:49:46,693
I don't think and then Luke actually killed an awful lot of stuff.

885
00:49:46,894 --> 00:49:49,173
Luke gets credit for a lot of things, which is fine.

886
00:49:49,693 --> 00:49:53,253
But I think 47 was actually very, very good,

887
00:49:53,253 --> 00:49:56,693
especially considering how early in the timeline it was.

888
00:49:57,654 --> 00:50:01,094
And we could have all you know, we could have had no addresses,

889
00:50:01,574 --> 00:50:02,733
you know, for 10 years.

890
00:50:02,733 --> 00:50:06,373
So where would the user and who knows if we weren't distracted by this issue,

891
00:50:06,373 --> 00:50:08,894
maybe the whole the whole path would have been different.

892
00:50:08,894 --> 00:50:10,334
You know, who knows? I don't know.

893
00:50:10,334 --> 00:50:12,774
But maybe we would have had a question for you.

894
00:50:12,774 --> 00:50:14,854
And thank you for building on Bitcoin.

895
00:50:14,854 --> 00:50:17,613
Can you maybe explain the difference between like your Drivechain

896
00:50:17,613 --> 00:50:20,293
and what maybe something like an L2 counterparty would offer?

897
00:50:20,733 --> 00:50:23,733
Like, I'm trying to understand the differences between both

898
00:50:23,733 --> 00:50:25,574
and the advantages or disadvantage of each one.

899
00:50:28,094 --> 00:50:31,053
Well, counterparty is very, very similar, I suppose,

900
00:50:31,053 --> 00:50:35,733
but counterparty cannot move BTC that is inside of it.

901
00:50:35,733 --> 00:50:38,733
And that's the that's the whole point, really, is that you would do stuff

902
00:50:38,733 --> 00:50:42,094
with the you'd make transactions and payments with BTC.

903
00:50:42,094 --> 00:50:45,854
So that's how you'd make BTC payments on the L2, the Drivechain L2.

904
00:50:46,813 --> 00:50:52,214
Or you would do stuff like you have like a BitNames, Namecoin L2.

905
00:50:53,373 --> 00:50:56,293
And you would there you would have like this bit DNS thing

906
00:50:57,133 --> 00:51:00,293
that's similar to Namecoin that Satoshi helped invent in 2010.

907
00:51:01,173 --> 00:51:03,094
And you would buy and sell the names like with BTC,

908
00:51:03,094 --> 00:51:05,334
and then the seller would obtain the payment

909
00:51:05,733 --> 00:51:08,253
and then they would be able to walk that money back,

910
00:51:08,253 --> 00:51:12,774
withdraw the L2 back on L1, the same way you can have money

911
00:51:12,774 --> 00:51:15,574
on the Lightning Network. Lightning Network is L2.

912
00:51:17,574 --> 00:51:20,534
But notice that when it's in the Lightning Network, it has different properties,

913
00:51:20,534 --> 00:51:22,894
like you can split it to different decimal points and things.

914
00:51:23,253 --> 00:51:27,253
But then when you withdraw it, you end up with the L1 transaction.

915
00:51:27,253 --> 00:51:31,574
And everyone here knows that there's not enough space on the L1.

916
00:51:32,053 --> 00:51:35,214
So ultimately, users will have to be on the L2

917
00:51:36,774 --> 00:51:38,014
in some way or another.

918
00:51:38,014 --> 00:51:40,493
And so the question is just

919
00:51:40,493 --> 00:51:43,173
which stuff is mandatory for which people.

920
00:51:44,214 --> 00:51:48,933
And I think Drivechain adds an awful lot of creativity for that.

921
00:51:48,933 --> 00:51:52,214
Basically, it says anything you can do with an altcoin, you could do with Bitcoin.

922
00:51:52,974 --> 00:51:56,974
And that's the idea is not to like necessarily defend every idea,

923
00:51:56,974 --> 00:51:59,173
but just to say, hey, if it can be done on an altcoin,

924
00:52:00,014 --> 00:52:02,014
why not do it with Bitcoin?

925
00:52:02,774 --> 00:52:06,493
And it's a slightly reduced security model, but not really, because

926
00:52:07,534 --> 00:52:11,414
the security model is basically that the miners enjoy collecting transaction fees

927
00:52:11,974 --> 00:52:15,933
more than they enjoy destroying the source of those fees.

928
00:52:16,133 --> 00:52:24,574
And so that's not really that strong of an assumption, I think.

929
00:52:24,693 --> 00:52:26,133
I think it's certainly better than nothing.

930
00:52:26,133 --> 00:52:30,414
And then, of course, only people have to voluntarily go to the L2.

931
00:52:30,414 --> 00:52:32,894
So even if you think it's a bad idea, then why?

932
00:52:34,493 --> 00:52:35,933
Why stop other people from doing it?

933
00:52:35,933 --> 00:52:38,293
But that's what I want to do, like a health and wellness check.

934
00:52:38,574 --> 00:52:41,813
The miner can just for the same reason

935
00:52:41,813 --> 00:52:47,293
that I don't let people dump shit in their fucking river,

936
00:52:47,293 --> 00:52:51,414
air quote, upstream from my river, up quote,

937
00:52:51,693 --> 00:52:54,654
because I still have to deal with the consequences

938
00:52:54,654 --> 00:52:56,774
of them dumping shit in the water.

939
00:52:58,733 --> 00:53:00,933
Yeah, see, there you are, I was going to I was going to call for health

940
00:53:00,933 --> 00:53:01,733
and wellness check there.

941
00:53:01,733 --> 00:53:04,693
You hadn't yelled yet, so I figured something was wrong.

942
00:53:04,693 --> 00:53:07,574
He's running some tests on his block clock right now.

943
00:53:08,414 --> 00:53:11,574
But I just wanted to bring up because there's a new protocol called X-Chain

944
00:53:11,574 --> 00:53:14,214
coming out like this month, I guess,

945
00:53:14,214 --> 00:53:16,334
that's based on kind of like the counterparty stuff.

946
00:53:16,334 --> 00:53:19,334
And it allows. All right. All right.

947
00:53:19,373 --> 00:53:21,133
I mean, OK, it's bad enough.

948
00:53:21,133 --> 00:53:24,613
Well, one person has been around since 2014.

949
00:53:24,613 --> 00:53:25,654
That's why. That's all.

950
00:53:25,654 --> 00:53:27,693
No, that's not what this is.

951
00:53:27,693 --> 00:53:30,053
But one interesting thing to point out, though, is that.

952
00:53:31,373 --> 00:53:33,974
Have been inventing stuff this whole time.

953
00:53:33,974 --> 00:53:35,654
A lot of it is terrible.

954
00:53:35,654 --> 00:53:39,933
Ninety nine percent of it is terrible, but people have been inventing things

955
00:53:39,933 --> 00:53:42,253
and people have been pushing the envelope in other ways.

956
00:53:42,894 --> 00:53:47,414
For example, someone told me, I think at the beginning of 2022.

957
00:53:48,293 --> 00:53:50,733
I think that was the year, January.

958
00:53:50,733 --> 00:53:56,173
Someone told me that Solana only had really three nodes or maybe only one

959
00:53:57,173 --> 00:54:00,654
because the cost of the Solana full node was so expensive

960
00:54:00,654 --> 00:54:04,253
that they were like basically on death's door.

961
00:54:04,733 --> 00:54:07,733
And they just had one guy, you know, the people, the creators of Solana.

962
00:54:08,133 --> 00:54:10,774
But over time, they they got it down.

963
00:54:10,774 --> 00:54:14,373
And now it's like you need to have this huge array of RAM and like what?

964
00:54:14,373 --> 00:54:16,774
I don't know the exact specs, but the specs are enormous.

965
00:54:17,214 --> 00:54:21,334
But it's it's down to something like whatever, like $20,000 a year.

966
00:54:21,894 --> 00:54:25,854
And now there's many more than just three.

967
00:54:26,214 --> 00:54:29,214
So the question is, obviously, that's very different

968
00:54:29,214 --> 00:54:31,974
than what we would like in Bitcoin. But

969
00:54:33,813 --> 00:54:37,373
are we really going to bet on our own infallibility?

970
00:54:38,053 --> 00:54:40,133
And I think that is a big mistake.

971
00:54:40,133 --> 00:54:43,414
We should just let people try their own stuff out.

972
00:54:43,854 --> 00:54:45,974
Maybe 99 percent of it doesn't work.

973
00:54:46,774 --> 00:54:49,933
And let's give people options.

974
00:54:49,933 --> 00:54:53,094
The design of Drivechain is not is to minimize

975
00:54:53,094 --> 00:54:55,613
the the effect of the L2s on the L1.

976
00:54:56,534 --> 00:54:58,493
So that's the goal.

977
00:54:58,493 --> 00:55:01,813
People try to say that it doesn't achieve that goal, but they argue

978
00:55:01,813 --> 00:55:06,774
all this weird stuff about like, oh, someone somewhere will be making more money.

979
00:55:06,774 --> 00:55:09,693
And so this is ecological effect.

980
00:55:10,133 --> 00:55:12,613
But I think there's a huge ecological effect no matter what.

981
00:55:12,613 --> 00:55:13,173
You know what I mean?

982
00:55:13,173 --> 00:55:16,894
Like the fact that people are using USDT on Tron.

983
00:55:16,894 --> 00:55:19,574
And that's that's why people

984
00:55:20,693 --> 00:55:24,733
the fact that Trump has the Trump meme coin on Solana

985
00:55:25,334 --> 00:55:27,493
and the Melania meme coin on Solana

986
00:55:28,053 --> 00:55:31,414
and the fact that the darknet markets are XMR only.

987
00:55:31,414 --> 00:55:32,974
And the fact that we have a counterparty guy in here

988
00:55:32,974 --> 00:55:34,813
trying to talk about whatever he was talking about.

989
00:55:35,733 --> 00:55:37,373
A new thing invented.

990
00:55:37,373 --> 00:55:40,094
That's why people say crypto instead of Bitcoin,

991
00:55:40,214 --> 00:55:43,654
you know, because they see the world has crypto in it

992
00:55:43,654 --> 00:55:45,574
and they don't use Bitcoin.

993
00:55:45,574 --> 00:55:47,414
They use this other stuff.

994
00:55:47,414 --> 00:55:50,654
And so that's that's the bigger ecological effect

995
00:55:50,654 --> 00:55:54,534
is that the the stuff is being tried out by people.

996
00:55:54,534 --> 00:55:56,253
And why not make it a Bitcoin project?

997
00:55:56,253 --> 00:55:56,894
That's what I saw.

998
00:55:56,894 --> 00:55:59,574
The way I see it, this is the last Bitcoin maximalist project.

999
00:55:59,574 --> 00:56:01,974
Why not have Trump and Melania coin on Bitcoin?

1000
00:56:01,974 --> 00:56:03,813
Why not? Exactly.

1001
00:56:03,813 --> 00:56:07,014
Yeah, man. Why not?

1002
00:56:08,014 --> 00:56:10,613
I know, but aren't you guys going down the same path as Luke

1003
00:56:10,613 --> 00:56:12,534
where you say we don't want certain users?

1004
00:56:12,534 --> 00:56:13,654
We don't want to.

1005
00:56:13,654 --> 00:56:18,014
Oh, I just don't care about penny anti bullshit

1006
00:56:18,014 --> 00:56:23,654
that sustains no consistent market demand is just highly low time.

1007
00:56:23,894 --> 00:56:24,854
You know, high time.

1008
00:56:24,854 --> 00:56:27,493
Preferably, maybe get out of bed.

1009
00:56:27,493 --> 00:56:30,053
I was in bed and you triggered me so much.

1010
00:56:30,053 --> 00:56:31,974
I had to get out, go downstairs.

1011
00:56:31,974 --> 00:56:33,654
So my wife doesn't fucking see me get bad.

1012
00:56:33,654 --> 00:56:36,493
I found spaces because she's probably going to divorce me.

1013
00:56:36,574 --> 00:56:38,854
Who the fuck is using shit coins right now?

1014
00:56:38,854 --> 00:56:40,813
Who's using any of the shit?

1015
00:56:41,053 --> 00:56:42,094
This is true, man.

1016
00:56:42,094 --> 00:56:44,253
I was working on it.

1017
00:56:44,253 --> 00:56:44,894
I was working.

1018
00:56:44,894 --> 00:56:49,414
I don't know anecdotally, but you can go to this site, crypto fees that info

1019
00:56:49,414 --> 00:56:53,334
and you can see that people pay way more money to use coins that aren't Bitcoin.

1020
00:56:53,334 --> 00:56:56,373
And you can see the transaction volume of USDT on Tron.

1021
00:56:56,373 --> 00:56:58,933
You think you can see things?

1022
00:56:58,933 --> 00:57:02,894
That's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's

1023
00:57:02,894 --> 00:57:04,454
that's fair coins.

1024
00:57:05,053 --> 00:57:09,334
Well, it's still a crypto use case because it involves like there's no.

1025
00:57:09,854 --> 00:57:15,854
So you want to make a Drivechain for a USDT or like a fiat coin?

1026
00:57:15,893 --> 00:57:19,693
Like that's where you think the market like what is about what I want?

1027
00:57:19,693 --> 00:57:22,653
Again, it's about we have all these people trying different things.

1028
00:57:23,813 --> 00:57:26,494
You think like you're under the impression

1029
00:57:26,494 --> 00:57:29,893
or you believe that these fiat coins are crypto?

1030
00:57:29,893 --> 00:57:33,134
Like it's more crypto than than like fiat.

1031
00:57:34,134 --> 00:57:37,374
Well, I think the USDT does help crypto an awful lot

1032
00:57:37,813 --> 00:57:41,574
because you can now do like these swaps and things.

1033
00:57:41,574 --> 00:57:47,173
So now it's it's been a huge like the it's an Achilles heel of Bitcoin

1034
00:57:47,173 --> 00:57:49,614
that you need the fiat leg of the exchange.

1035
00:57:49,614 --> 00:57:51,134
Like it was always if you went on like Mt.

1036
00:57:51,134 --> 00:57:52,454
Gox back in the day.

1037
00:57:53,574 --> 00:57:55,893
It's very easy to send BTC in and out, but it's.

1038
00:57:57,013 --> 00:57:59,134
Yeah, definitely more useful than before.

1039
00:57:59,173 --> 00:58:04,094
Yeah. So then why not have it just pay transaction fee in the Bitcoin network?

1040
00:58:04,094 --> 00:58:07,013
Writ large, you know, inclusive of the L2 fees.

1041
00:58:07,013 --> 00:58:09,374
What do you mean pay transaction fees?

1042
00:58:09,374 --> 00:58:11,214
Sure. A lot of the U.S.

1043
00:58:11,214 --> 00:58:16,854
The influence of the miners revenue streams and what they do or don't support.

1044
00:58:19,013 --> 00:58:21,574
I don't know about that one, dude, they.

1045
00:58:23,693 --> 00:58:26,013
Whatever Tron does, we can also do it

1046
00:58:26,013 --> 00:58:29,614
and it doesn't have to affect Bitcoin Core or L1 or anyone else.

1047
00:58:30,533 --> 00:58:32,173
Just the miners make more money.

1048
00:58:32,173 --> 00:58:34,013
But for what? Like what?

1049
00:58:34,013 --> 00:58:36,254
Why? Why do I want a fee?

1050
00:58:36,254 --> 00:58:37,494
What do you mean? Why?

1051
00:58:37,494 --> 00:58:39,933
Like it's they're paying customers.

1052
00:58:39,933 --> 00:58:45,574
Oh, I don't want a fucking fiat stable coin issuer to start having more

1053
00:58:45,574 --> 00:58:50,734
and more coercive influence over miners at the consensus level,

1054
00:58:51,094 --> 00:58:54,933
having arbitrary power over where and on what.

1055
00:58:54,933 --> 00:58:58,134
I mean, Tether has that today because Tether stack in Bitcoin.

1056
00:58:58,254 --> 00:59:00,614
So like they are an economic node.

1057
00:59:00,614 --> 00:59:04,933
I would say USDC doesn't like they they don't have any fucking sway over anything.

1058
00:59:05,374 --> 00:59:10,574
But it's like the it's a transaction fee is they're paying customers.

1059
00:59:10,574 --> 00:59:15,533
So it's like it's about it's the opposite of coercive, coercive.

1060
00:59:15,693 --> 00:59:16,614
Absolutely.

1061
00:59:16,614 --> 00:59:21,214
I mean, how many times does the other Bitcoin itself?

1062
00:59:21,254 --> 00:59:23,293
Everybody gets both sides.

1063
00:59:23,293 --> 00:59:25,614
They get even handed distribution.

1064
00:59:25,614 --> 00:59:27,813
They can make choices on both sides.

1065
00:59:28,053 --> 00:59:32,494
The issuer of a stable coin decides instantly

1066
00:59:32,494 --> 00:59:37,653
which side of the fork goes to zero and which side gets all of that miner revenue

1067
00:59:37,974 --> 00:59:43,053
and their users have zero control or input in it whatsoever.

1068
00:59:44,735 --> 00:59:51,735
Well, I think that, you know, again, this is why we don't just want to have that one use case. We want to have all the use cases.

1069
00:59:51,735 --> 01:00:01,735
So I also have this vision for instead of Lightning to have the payments L2s and instead of CoinJoin to have the Zcash Zside L2s.

1070
01:00:01,735 --> 01:00:07,735
So I have this whole thing where the stable coins are just one piece and the miners are making a huge amount of money.

1071
01:00:07,735 --> 01:00:17,735
But ultimately, I think it's both fair and inevitable that the miners be loyal to whoever is actually paying the transaction fee.

1072
01:00:17,735 --> 01:00:23,735
And I think that that is because the question is, like, what else would they be loyal to?

1073
01:00:23,735 --> 01:00:27,735
And I feel like whatever that answer is would be much, much worse.

1074
01:00:27,735 --> 01:00:37,735
Paul, then Bitcoin is a failure and it's going to implode on itself because the entire thing is incentive-unstable.

1075
01:00:37,735 --> 01:00:48,735
And anyone can just issue any new asset besides Bitcoin and outbid Bitcoin in miner revenue fees to censor Bitcoin to second-class Bitcoin.

1076
01:00:48,735 --> 01:00:53,735
Just because you issue something doesn't mean it's automatically more valuable than Bitcoin.

1077
01:00:53,735 --> 01:00:58,735
That would be a neat trick, but I don't think it bears any resemblance to the truth.

1078
01:00:58,735 --> 01:01:04,735
You know what I mean? You can issue something new, but Tether had to build up their reputation for...

1079
01:01:04,735 --> 01:01:11,735
And as you know, they went through many ups and downs and periods where people doubted that they would ever get their money back.

1080
01:01:11,735 --> 01:01:15,735
And there were many crises. Now they have an extremely...

1081
01:01:15,735 --> 01:01:22,735
You have to consider the added valuation of every possible tokenization scheme that exists.

1082
01:01:22,735 --> 01:01:29,735
If you're talking about proof-of-work as a fully generalized thing that anyone can just jump on board and pay fees.

1083
01:01:29,735 --> 01:01:31,735
The whole thing is incentive-unstable.

1084
01:01:31,735 --> 01:01:38,735
Well, again, though, you pay the fee in BTC in my scheme or in eCash in the fork.

1085
01:01:38,735 --> 01:01:46,735
Even though you have assets, it's a little bit like Ethereum where you would move the USDT, but you pay the ETH fee.

1086
01:01:46,735 --> 01:01:48,735
There's nothing new.

1087
01:01:48,735 --> 01:01:50,735
You pay the BTC fee.

1088
01:01:50,735 --> 01:01:58,735
Dude, there is absolutely no way for you to enforce that or prevent miners from just accepting things and all your tokens out of ban.

1089
01:01:58,735 --> 01:02:03,735
We have the L2 called BitAssets, and that's just how it works.

1090
01:02:03,735 --> 01:02:05,735
So someone could make something else.

1091
01:02:05,735 --> 01:02:16,735
My guess is that the miners don't want to have everyone's stamp collection and to collect various 12,000 Melania coins.

1092
01:02:16,735 --> 01:02:20,735
How about every major fiat currency? And then how about the equities?

1093
01:02:20,735 --> 01:02:23,735
Oh, and why don't we toss REITs in there too?

1094
01:02:23,735 --> 01:02:26,735
And let's just start thinking about everything we can tokenize.

1095
01:02:26,735 --> 01:02:37,735
We're now an issuer, and a centralized party decides if miners get or don't get on what side of what fork any revenue from any of these things.

1096
01:02:37,735 --> 01:02:41,735
And let's see how fucking incentive-stable an arrangement like that is.

1097
01:02:41,735 --> 01:02:45,735
It's completely unstable.

1098
01:02:46,735 --> 01:02:58,735
No individual token or use can have any predictability or stability about access to the system, about fucking censorship resistance in that system,

1099
01:02:58,735 --> 01:03:05,735
because it's this fucking totally unstable equilibrium where any token can just butt in that has a valuation.

1100
01:03:05,735 --> 01:03:08,735
Yeah, and my thing, anyone can just make whatever token they want.

1101
01:03:08,735 --> 01:03:13,735
You want to make Shinobi coin, you can make 10 trillion Shinobi coin on BitAssets.

1102
01:03:13,735 --> 01:03:15,735
That's the L2.

1103
01:03:15,735 --> 01:03:22,735
And when you pay to create it, you pay in what would be BTC or eCash in this case.

1104
01:03:22,735 --> 01:03:26,735
And then when people move it, they pay the transaction fee.

1105
01:03:26,735 --> 01:03:29,735
And I don't see anything wrong with that whatsoever.

1106
01:03:29,735 --> 01:03:30,735
I think that's totally normal.

1107
01:03:30,735 --> 01:03:32,735
And we're talking about REITs and stocks.

1108
01:03:32,735 --> 01:03:34,735
This is the way the real world works.

1109
01:03:34,735 --> 01:03:35,735
You move.

1110
01:03:35,735 --> 01:03:37,735
People trade those things all the time.

1111
01:03:37,735 --> 01:03:40,735
There is a transaction fee.

1112
01:03:40,735 --> 01:03:45,735
There is a FINRA regulatory fee of some kind.

1113
01:03:45,735 --> 01:03:46,735
There's flat fees.

1114
01:03:46,735 --> 01:03:48,735
There's fees based on percent.

1115
01:03:48,735 --> 01:03:50,735
That's how the New York Stock Exchange works.

1116
01:03:50,735 --> 01:03:56,735
That's how whatever, all these other things, CME, CBOE, that's how the real world works.

1117
01:03:56,735 --> 01:04:00,735
It seems to work just fine without bursting into flames.

1118
01:04:00,735 --> 01:04:02,735
I think we should try it.

1119
01:04:02,735 --> 01:04:08,735
And I think that hating on the use case is a really bad sign.

1120
01:04:08,735 --> 01:04:12,735
I think people are missing the point.

1121
01:04:12,735 --> 01:04:13,735
Hold on a second.

1122
01:04:13,735 --> 01:04:17,735
I think people are missing the point of tokenization in the first place.

1123
01:04:17,735 --> 01:04:23,735
Because people don't understand that the entire market of Wall Street is rehypothecated.

1124
01:04:23,735 --> 01:04:25,735
Does anybody know about securities lending?

1125
01:04:25,735 --> 01:04:33,735
If you understand that Patrick Byrne spent $20 million to prove that 75% of Goldman Sachs revenue came from equities lending,

1126
01:04:33,735 --> 01:04:36,735
which is lending out of stock 20X.

1127
01:04:36,735 --> 01:04:40,735
Because when you naked short sell a stock, you only have to locate the stock.

1128
01:04:40,735 --> 01:04:41,735
You don't actually have to own it.

1129
01:04:41,735 --> 01:04:48,735
And so the rehypothecation of equities is a major, major problem in our equities markets.

1130
01:04:48,735 --> 01:04:51,735
And so that problem needs to be solved.

1131
01:04:51,735 --> 01:04:53,735
And I'm not saying I know the correct answer.

1132
01:04:53,735 --> 01:04:55,735
I'm saying there is a problem and a use case for tokenization.

1133
01:04:55,735 --> 01:04:58,735
And the solution is not Bitcoin.

1134
01:04:58,735 --> 01:05:01,735
Well, you know, there is one.

1135
01:05:01,735 --> 01:05:02,735
Hold on a second.

1136
01:05:02,735 --> 01:05:03,735
There is one protocol.

1137
01:05:03,735 --> 01:05:12,735
And just in a comparison to what Paul is doing, is that the only other L2 we have that has the same thermodynamics as Bitcoin is counterparty.

1138
01:05:12,735 --> 01:05:16,735
Bitcoins do not benefit in any way from thermodynamic security.

1139
01:05:16,735 --> 01:05:31,735
Shinobi token, which is redeemable to me for, I don't fucking know, a joint, is not fucking benefiting in any way whatsoever by using the Bitcoin blockchain.

1140
01:05:31,735 --> 01:05:35,735
Because I can just laugh in your face and say, go fuck yourself.

1141
01:05:35,735 --> 01:05:37,735
Yeah, but here's the problem, Shinobi.

1142
01:05:37,735 --> 01:05:39,735
We don't have pre-open markets.

1143
01:05:40,735 --> 01:05:47,735
And so the problem here is that only a small group of people get to control access to capital markets.

1144
01:05:47,735 --> 01:05:49,735
So you have to go to the SEC.

1145
01:05:49,735 --> 01:05:59,735
You need $4 million and 40 lawyers to open any type of capital market where, in reality, a totally free market would allow anybody to create a token, start a company, and go from there.

1146
01:06:00,735 --> 01:06:01,735
Oh my god, dude.

1147
01:06:01,735 --> 01:06:12,735
It's almost like you don't understand that the SEC wasn't just like, hey guys, I had this crazy idea for literally no reason.

1148
01:06:12,735 --> 01:06:17,735
Like, the SEC exists for fucking reasons.

1149
01:06:17,735 --> 01:06:25,735
Do you know the SEC actually has the same initials as a security exchange company that Charles Ponzi started?

1150
01:06:25,735 --> 01:06:26,735
Do you know that little tidbit?

1151
01:06:26,735 --> 01:06:28,735
The entire thing is a Ponzi, bro.

1152
01:06:28,735 --> 01:06:29,735
What are you talking about?

1153
01:06:31,735 --> 01:06:36,735
I think it doesn't matter if the idea ultimately works or not.

1154
01:06:36,735 --> 01:06:42,735
Because I think the Drivechain idea is about people trying lots and lots of ideas.

1155
01:06:42,735 --> 01:06:43,735
Some will fail.

1156
01:06:43,735 --> 01:06:49,735
But I think I don't care why someone wants to do it.

1157
01:06:49,735 --> 01:06:52,735
If they want to do it, then they should be able to do it on Bitcoin.

1158
01:06:52,735 --> 01:06:54,735
That's the BIP300 idea.

1159
01:06:55,735 --> 01:06:57,735
This used to be something that everyone believed.

1160
01:06:57,735 --> 01:07:02,735
But over time, everyone has started to say, oh, we never wanted Bitcoin to be private.

1161
01:07:02,735 --> 01:07:05,735
We never wanted Bitcoin to scale, or at least not like this.

1162
01:07:05,735 --> 01:07:08,735
And we never wanted people to be able to do stuff on Bitcoin.

1163
01:07:08,735 --> 01:07:12,735
And we never thought Bitcoin was open source and that people would just merge good ideas.

1164
01:07:12,735 --> 01:07:23,735
So I think if we have to run every single idea by Shinobi, no offense, Shinobi, but I just don't think that you actually know any of this stuff that you're talking about.

1165
01:07:23,735 --> 01:07:32,735
If me just poking holes in your idea is enough to stop it from going anywhere, then I don't know what to tell you, man.

1166
01:07:32,735 --> 01:07:34,735
It's not me.

1167
01:07:34,735 --> 01:07:41,735
I'm talking about the premise of, do you think every idea should run by you?

1168
01:07:41,735 --> 01:07:44,735
And if you think it's bad, we automatically shouldn't do it in Bitcoin.

1169
01:07:44,735 --> 01:07:45,735
No, Paul.

1170
01:07:45,735 --> 01:07:49,735
You do these weird characterizations all the time.

1171
01:07:50,735 --> 01:07:54,735
We don't want Bitcoin to be private anymore.

1172
01:07:54,735 --> 01:07:56,735
We don't want Bitcoin to scale anymore.

1173
01:07:56,735 --> 01:08:04,735
Some ways of trying to do that come with negative downsides.

1174
01:08:05,735 --> 01:08:07,735
That Bitcoin is an incentive system.

1175
01:08:07,735 --> 01:08:19,735
And when you introduce very large open-ended new variables into that incentive system, they can have negative consequences.

1176
01:08:19,735 --> 01:08:21,735
They can be very unpredictable.

1177
01:08:21,735 --> 01:08:29,735
You can't just go, this is the new incentive structure and that is it because it is so fucking wide open-ended.

1178
01:08:29,735 --> 01:08:33,735
And a lot of us are just not okay with those kinds of things.

1179
01:08:33,735 --> 01:08:40,735
Because as people who want Bitcoin to survive in the long term, this incentive structure is working.

1180
01:08:40,735 --> 01:08:43,735
Let's not radically fuck with it.

1181
01:08:43,735 --> 01:08:48,735
So Michael Saylor is going to tokenize MicroStrategy stock.

1182
01:08:48,735 --> 01:08:52,735
Trump is going to push tokenization of real world assets.

1183
01:08:52,735 --> 01:08:54,735
Larry Fink is going to tokenize the equities market.

1184
01:08:54,735 --> 01:08:57,735
So Shinobi, what are you going to do when that starts happening?

1185
01:08:57,735 --> 01:08:59,735
You want it to happen on Bitcoin or you want it to happen on a shitcoin?

1186
01:08:59,735 --> 01:09:02,735
Bitcoin provides no value to those things.

1187
01:09:02,735 --> 01:09:04,735
There is a lot of value.

1188
01:09:04,735 --> 01:09:06,735
Bitcoin is the anchor of truth for all of it.

1189
01:09:06,735 --> 01:09:07,735
What are you talking about?

1190
01:09:07,735 --> 01:09:11,735
There are a lot of good reasons to tokenize these fucking things.

1191
01:09:11,735 --> 01:09:17,735
But tokenizing them on Bitcoin adds zero value to them.

1192
01:09:17,735 --> 01:09:19,735
There is no value.

1193
01:09:19,735 --> 01:09:24,735
You can timestamp anything with 32 bytes.

1194
01:09:24,735 --> 01:09:27,735
You do not need to put tokens on Bitcoin.

1195
01:09:27,735 --> 01:09:34,735
You can timestamp records of external fucking systems and verify them all fucking day to your heart's content.

1196
01:09:34,735 --> 01:09:41,735
They are still trusted assets that require trust in a centralized issuer.

1197
01:09:41,735 --> 01:09:44,735
And putting them on Bitcoin does not change that.

1198
01:09:44,735 --> 01:09:46,735
It adds no value.

1199
01:09:46,735 --> 01:09:49,735
It benefits them in no way whatsoever.

1200
01:09:49,735 --> 01:09:54,735
I think just Bitcoiners have a fundamental misunderstanding of capital markets.

1201
01:09:54,735 --> 01:10:00,735
And they do not understand that the free market through tokenization will be what the future is about.

1202
01:10:00,735 --> 01:10:02,735
And people can issue their own tokens.

1203
01:10:02,735 --> 01:10:03,735
And they can get rugged.

1204
01:10:03,735 --> 01:10:05,735
Or you can buy the Michael Saylor strategy token.

1205
01:10:05,735 --> 01:10:07,735
Did you not hear anything I said in the start there?

1206
01:10:07,735 --> 01:10:09,735
You are talking out of your asshole, bro.

1207
01:10:09,735 --> 01:10:11,735
You do not know what you are talking about.

1208
01:10:11,735 --> 01:10:12,735
Oh my god.

1209
01:10:12,735 --> 01:10:15,735
Because g-money is…

1210
01:10:15,735 --> 01:10:19,735
We are going to tokenize all of this on Pulse Fork.

1211
01:10:19,735 --> 01:10:21,735
So that is what Pulse is doing.

1212
01:10:22,735 --> 01:10:27,735
If you are right that it is a bad idea, then it will just be a bad idea on eCash.

1213
01:10:27,735 --> 01:10:28,735
Perfect.

1214
01:10:28,735 --> 01:10:30,735
So it is all going to be like a bubble.

1215
01:10:30,735 --> 01:10:31,735
Right.

1216
01:10:31,735 --> 01:10:34,735
And then we are going to have atomic swaps between eCash and Bitcoin.

1217
01:10:34,735 --> 01:10:36,735
Everyone can live a happy life.

1218
01:10:36,735 --> 01:10:39,735
We can and we probably will.

1219
01:10:39,735 --> 01:10:42,735
I think Paul is the machine raven.

1220
01:10:42,735 --> 01:10:44,735
Interesting to say that.

1221
01:10:44,735 --> 01:10:47,735
Okay, so Shinobi is a big drive-chain hater.

1222
01:10:47,735 --> 01:10:49,735
It is probably the biggest drive-chain hater.

1223
01:10:49,735 --> 01:10:51,735
Paul, I have a question.

1224
01:10:51,735 --> 01:10:53,735
Why didn't you merge my eCash?

1225
01:10:53,735 --> 01:10:55,735
Well, I will get to that in a second.

1226
01:10:55,735 --> 01:10:59,735
But then Shinobi wrote this five-part article for Bitcoin Magazine.

1227
01:10:59,735 --> 01:11:03,735
And then he wrote this thing about sidechains, the holy grail, the most important thing.

1228
01:11:03,735 --> 01:11:06,735
And then there was like, I do not remember, maybe part four or something.

1229
01:11:06,735 --> 01:11:09,735
So he wrote this huge thing and part four is about drive-chain.

1230
01:11:09,735 --> 01:11:11,735
And I am like, oh good, here is this long-form piece of writing.

1231
01:11:11,735 --> 01:11:14,735
I am going to get to finally learn what Shinobi's problem is.

1232
01:11:15,735 --> 01:11:19,735
And then in one tiny little, he has this huge thing about drive-chain.

1233
01:11:19,735 --> 01:11:26,735
And then this one tiny little sentence he says, oh, that drive-chain relies on UASFs to keep the withdrawals.

1234
01:11:26,735 --> 01:11:28,735
Which is not even true.

1235
01:11:28,735 --> 01:11:30,735
And then I was like, oh.

1236
01:11:30,735 --> 01:11:32,735
No, no, no, no, no.

1237
01:11:32,735 --> 01:11:38,735
It was like after he wrote this giant, after all these years, thousands and thousands of people waiting on this idea.

1238
01:11:38,735 --> 01:11:41,735
He just has one sentence that is not even true about UASFs.

1239
01:11:41,735 --> 01:11:43,735
Mr. Hoddle, you shut up right now.

1240
01:11:44,735 --> 01:11:46,735
I was like, what?

1241
01:12:06,735 --> 01:12:09,735
I didn't see the other one, but I don't know, maybe you can link it to me.

1242
01:12:09,735 --> 01:12:12,735
I just saw this five-part, well-researched thing about side-chains.

1243
01:12:12,735 --> 01:12:14,735
And then this part four is the drive-chain part.

1244
01:12:14,735 --> 01:12:20,735
And then I was like, this whole thing, it just has one negative sentence in the entire long tweet.

1245
01:12:20,735 --> 01:12:22,735
One negative sentence is not even right.

1246
01:12:22,735 --> 01:12:24,735
And I was like, what the heck?

1247
01:12:24,735 --> 01:12:30,735
The end of that series was my analysis of all the different designs.

1248
01:12:30,735 --> 01:12:37,735
But I kept each isolated article before that a purely objective description of how they worked.

1249
01:12:37,735 --> 01:12:45,735
So people could go into my analysis of things having an objective brief of how they all worked first.

1250
01:12:45,735 --> 01:12:49,735
Rather than just here's Shinobi's analysis.

1251
01:12:49,735 --> 01:12:57,735
But Paul, your solution for minor theft is UASF, right?

1252
01:12:57,735 --> 01:12:59,735
No, that's not right.

1253
01:12:59,735 --> 01:13:01,735
What is it?

1254
01:13:02,735 --> 01:13:12,735
At the beginning, it's the draw of the fees more than what the miners would gain by attacking the chain and killing the source of the fees.

1255
01:13:12,735 --> 01:13:14,735
And this is not that complicated.

1256
01:13:14,735 --> 01:13:17,735
Paul, you literally used to talk about the UASF button.

1257
01:13:17,735 --> 01:13:20,735
You literally used to talk about the UASF button.

1258
01:13:20,735 --> 01:13:25,735
I have tweets, I'm sure I could find right now, of you saying we UASF it.

1259
01:13:25,735 --> 01:13:30,735
I think I described a huge, it's like a defense in depth kind of a thing.

1260
01:13:30,735 --> 01:13:36,735
Where I define these are some things that might happen in the course of giving a really thorough analysis.

1261
01:13:36,735 --> 01:13:38,735
But that is not the model.

1262
01:13:38,735 --> 01:13:47,735
If you go to the original 2015 post, you can see that I have four levels of what you might assume in terms of paranoia.

1263
01:13:47,735 --> 01:13:51,735
You had a UASF button.

1264
01:13:51,735 --> 01:13:53,735
You used to talk about the UASF button.

1265
01:13:53,735 --> 01:13:56,735
But you're not looking specifically for a transaction.

1266
01:13:56,735 --> 01:13:59,735
It changed the model since then.

1267
01:13:59,735 --> 01:14:01,735
Now it's a new model. Relax.

1268
01:14:01,735 --> 01:14:06,735
If you go to the 2015 article, you see I have four layers of paranoia.

1269
01:14:06,735 --> 01:14:09,735
And the reason this is important is because it's a deterrent.

1270
01:14:09,735 --> 01:14:11,735
Defense is like a deterrent.

1271
01:14:11,735 --> 01:14:14,735
So if you're going to rob someone's house, you're going to think, well, wait a minute.

1272
01:14:14,735 --> 01:14:16,735
Maybe they have a dog, but maybe they don't.

1273
01:14:16,735 --> 01:14:18,735
Or maybe they have a gun, and maybe they don't.

1274
01:14:18,735 --> 01:14:21,735
And maybe they have an alarm, but maybe they don't.

1275
01:14:21,735 --> 01:14:29,735
So even if you just kind of think that they might, it might be enough to persuade you to just leave well enough alone.

1276
01:14:29,735 --> 01:14:35,735
The BitBoy Tenor should have probably showed you that that's not always true.

1277
01:14:35,735 --> 01:14:38,735
And so I write about some of these things.

1278
01:14:38,735 --> 01:14:39,735
I say, hey, listen.

1279
01:14:39,735 --> 01:14:41,735
One of the things that I write about.

1280
01:14:41,735 --> 01:14:42,735
Can I just finish my point?

1281
01:14:42,735 --> 01:14:45,735
Just say I changed my mind.

1282
01:14:45,735 --> 01:14:54,735
Because I write about, hey, if people are so against you that they're determined to UASF, then you'll never succeed with the theft.

1283
01:14:54,735 --> 01:14:57,735
So maybe you shouldn't even try it because you'll lose a bunch of goodwill.

1284
01:14:57,735 --> 01:14:59,735
You may destroy the brand of your mining pool.

1285
01:14:59,735 --> 01:15:00,735
And maybe—

1286
01:15:00,735 --> 01:15:01,735
Yeah, but shit.

1287
01:15:01,735 --> 01:15:04,735
I mean, you're at all-time highs, and Bitcoin is at all-time highs.

1288
01:15:04,735 --> 01:15:06,735
You're never going to see that money ever again.

1289
01:15:06,735 --> 01:15:07,735
You pull the rug.

1290
01:15:07,735 --> 01:15:12,735
You used to talk about a little fucking window in the GUI that would show all the fucking—

1291
01:15:12,735 --> 01:15:21,735
But don't you understand the reason why I talked about that is because the UASF is very, very, very easy to do because—

1292
01:15:21,735 --> 01:15:26,735
Okay, Paul, you can just say I changed my mind, okay?

1293
01:15:26,735 --> 01:15:28,735
Like you can just—

1294
01:15:28,735 --> 01:15:29,735
Let me finish, though.

1295
01:15:29,735 --> 01:15:38,735
Because the withdrawals have to be announced, and you have to make progress towards them months in advance.

1296
01:15:38,735 --> 01:15:40,735
So it's very, very vulnerable to just—

1297
01:15:40,735 --> 01:15:42,735
It will show up in the list.

1298
01:15:42,735 --> 01:15:49,735
There can only be one or two things in the list, either one real and one fake or all of them being fake and only one being progress.

1299
01:15:49,735 --> 01:15:51,735
So it's very, very easy.

1300
01:15:51,735 --> 01:15:53,735
That's the point I was making.

1301
01:15:53,735 --> 01:16:01,735
It's like living in a world where someone can go out and buy an alarm and a gun and a dog in like 10 seconds.

1302
01:16:02,735 --> 01:16:07,735
So I'm saying, actually, the deterrent—

1303
01:16:07,735 --> 01:16:15,735
Well, you may feel that way, but it's very clear that you can—

1304
01:16:15,735 --> 01:16:17,735
It doesn't matter anymore.

1305
01:16:17,735 --> 01:16:19,735
This is not on Bitcoin.

1306
01:16:19,735 --> 01:16:20,735
You're forking Bitcoin.

1307
01:16:20,735 --> 01:16:22,735
So who cares?

1308
01:16:22,735 --> 01:16:23,735
Whatever.

1309
01:16:23,735 --> 01:16:24,735
At this point, it doesn't even matter.

1310
01:16:24,735 --> 01:16:27,735
If they steal, you can just hard fork them out.

1311
01:16:27,735 --> 01:16:29,735
You can do whatever you want.

1312
01:16:30,735 --> 01:16:32,735
I have been doing this for 10 years.

1313
01:16:32,735 --> 01:16:35,735
No, Paul, you are gaslighting me.

1314
01:16:35,735 --> 01:16:37,735
No, no, no.

1315
01:16:37,735 --> 01:16:38,735
I know.

1316
01:16:38,735 --> 01:16:41,735
Listen, that was on Bitcoin before.

1317
01:16:41,735 --> 01:16:43,735
No, but Shinobi, time out.

1318
01:16:43,735 --> 01:16:45,735
Everything he was saying before was on Bitcoin.

1319
01:16:45,735 --> 01:16:47,735
So UASF, that's all Bitcoin.

1320
01:16:47,735 --> 01:16:49,735
Now he's not doing it on Bitcoin.

1321
01:16:49,735 --> 01:16:51,735
He's doing it on his own chain.

1322
01:16:51,735 --> 01:16:54,735
And when you're doing it on your own chain, you can do whatever the fuck he wants.

1323
01:16:54,735 --> 01:16:57,735
You can fork in, fork out, whatever you want.

1324
01:16:58,735 --> 01:17:01,735
I don't think I'll have that much control over it after it launches,

1325
01:17:01,735 --> 01:17:03,735
because it will be kind of on autopilot.

1326
01:17:03,735 --> 01:17:06,735
You'll have control for the foreseeable future, Paul.

1327
01:17:06,735 --> 01:17:08,735
I promise you.

1328
01:17:08,735 --> 01:17:10,735
No, I don't think what you say will happen.

1329
01:17:10,735 --> 01:17:13,735
How many of Satoshi's coins are you going to have yourself, Paul?

1330
01:17:13,735 --> 01:17:17,735
Oh, well, you know, I don't know if I should talk about who's getting the coins,

1331
01:17:17,735 --> 01:17:18,735
but most—

1332
01:17:18,735 --> 01:17:20,735
Of course not.

1333
01:17:20,735 --> 01:17:25,735
If this is an honest airdrop, it's all got to be public.

1334
01:17:26,735 --> 01:17:28,735
Not an honest airdrop, though, is it?

1335
01:17:28,735 --> 01:17:30,735
It's not an honest airdrop?

1336
01:17:30,735 --> 01:17:32,735
The people—

1337
01:17:32,735 --> 01:17:33,735
You got pre-mines?

1338
01:17:33,735 --> 01:17:37,735
Of course, you'll see on which UTXOs end up getting them.

1339
01:17:37,735 --> 01:17:39,735
Yeah, but we don't know who the fuck they are.

1340
01:17:39,735 --> 01:17:42,735
Yeah, but why would anyone give that information?

1341
01:17:42,735 --> 01:17:46,735
This is an interesting question.

1342
01:17:46,735 --> 01:17:52,735
When you reassign those UTXOs, you're moving them at the time of the fork immediately, or what?

1343
01:17:52,735 --> 01:17:54,735
That's right.

1344
01:17:54,735 --> 01:17:57,735
Okay, so you'll see them immediately move.

1345
01:17:57,735 --> 01:17:59,735
But you don't necessarily know who they're moving to.

1346
01:17:59,735 --> 01:18:02,735
I'll advertise, Paul. I'll advertise.

1347
01:18:02,735 --> 01:18:04,735
Hook me up with some coins. I'll advertise.

1348
01:18:04,735 --> 01:18:07,735
Nice UTXO fork? I'm in.

1349
01:18:07,735 --> 01:18:12,735
Yeah, the more you guys show it, the more it might be worth.

1350
01:18:12,735 --> 01:18:15,735
Put a little pile aside for Mr. Hoddle.

1351
01:18:15,735 --> 01:18:19,735
I'm not going to let you get away with trying to gaslight me, Paul.

1352
01:18:19,735 --> 01:18:24,735
You talked about a UASF for Bitcoin.

1353
01:18:24,735 --> 01:18:28,735
It's not like the first line of defense or the main line of defense.

1354
01:18:28,735 --> 01:18:33,735
It's just a discussion of why people would not even want to sacrifice their goodwill.

1355
01:18:33,735 --> 01:18:37,735
No, it was you discussing a feature to prevent that.

1356
01:18:37,735 --> 01:18:40,735
That was for Bitcoin. This is eCash.

1357
01:18:40,735 --> 01:18:45,735
Anyone who's listening who cares, you got Shinobi and Peter Todd on one side.

1358
01:18:45,735 --> 01:18:47,735
And Peter Todd also did a piece of writing.

1359
01:18:47,735 --> 01:18:50,735
And basically every single sentence, I made a giant image.

1360
01:18:50,735 --> 01:18:51,735
I screenshotted the image.

1361
01:18:51,735 --> 01:18:54,735
And basically every single sentence Peter said was wrong.

1362
01:18:54,735 --> 01:18:57,735
And I go through it in detail.

1363
01:18:57,735 --> 01:18:59,735
And so you got Shinobi and Peter on one side.

1364
01:18:59,735 --> 01:19:02,735
And then you could go to LayerTwoLabs.com slash friends.

1365
01:19:02,735 --> 01:19:07,735
And you could see all the people who think that this is at least worth trying.

1366
01:19:07,735 --> 01:19:10,735
It's definitely worth trying on another chain like your chain.

1367
01:19:10,735 --> 01:19:13,735
This includes Robin Linus. This includes Adam Back.

1368
01:19:13,735 --> 01:19:15,735
This includes Rene Picard.

1369
01:19:15,735 --> 01:19:18,735
Shinobi, why do you have a problem with eCash?

1370
01:19:18,735 --> 01:19:20,735
Sorry, with what?

1371
01:19:21,255 --> 01:19:24,375
No, I'm asking Shinobi. What's the problem with eCash? He's not doing it on Bitcoin.

1372
01:19:24,375 --> 01:19:28,535
You're the one who is forking off of Bitcoin. I rest my case.

1373
01:19:28,535 --> 01:19:30,695
Yeah, but so what? He knows that. He cares.

1374
01:19:31,575 --> 01:19:35,175
He knows that. He admits this isn't a problem. He's willing to.

1375
01:19:37,335 --> 01:19:40,295
I actually think he's coming from the perspective that he'd rather not split.

1376
01:19:42,615 --> 01:19:47,015
How did me and just Peter Todd stop Bitcoin from doing something?

1377
01:19:47,814 --> 01:19:51,415
No, no. People who don't like the idea. People who do like the idea versus.

1378
01:19:52,535 --> 01:19:55,335
If somebody doesn't like the idea, it doesn't mean they could stop you from

1379
01:19:55,335 --> 01:20:00,615
fucking doing that idea. You could still do it. You could have easily tried to fork

1380
01:20:00,615 --> 01:20:04,854
a soft fork yourself. Those fuckers did at 55 percent. Yeah, you could have done a soft fork.

1381
01:20:04,854 --> 01:20:09,495
No, but you know, the same way as Bitcoin. You know, we do have that. That's what the

1382
01:20:09,495 --> 01:20:14,054
BIP300 activator is. That's basically the activation client. So we have that. We put

1383
01:20:14,054 --> 01:20:21,175
that out and that's that. So that's that's an option. Bitcoin could still add BIP300,

1384
01:20:21,175 --> 01:20:27,814
BIP301 really at any time and it can for the foreseeable future. But I think we all know that

1385
01:20:27,814 --> 01:20:32,454
it won't. And I don't think it's because BIP300 is a bad idea. I just think it's because no one's

1386
01:20:32,454 --> 01:20:38,695
adding anything and no one has added anything in the last 10 years except for two soft forks to

1387
01:20:38,695 --> 01:20:43,975
support lightning. And now people are pulling up the ladder behind them or people don't know

1388
01:20:45,015 --> 01:20:47,655
the knowledge of how to do the soft fork has been lost.

1389
01:20:49,335 --> 01:20:52,214
So I don't think everything is going as planned.

1390
01:20:56,134 --> 01:20:58,935
Everything is going according to plan. We have someone with a hand up.

1391
01:21:00,854 --> 01:21:06,134
Hey, what's up, guys? Hey, Wicked. Hey, Paul. Good to be here. Good to have you up here. I was on

1392
01:21:06,134 --> 01:21:11,574
one of Wicked's spaces Saturday, actually, and asked a question regarding the eCash hard fork,

1393
01:21:12,134 --> 01:21:21,015
particularly the fact that I believe it does not have replay protection. And if that's true,

1394
01:21:21,894 --> 01:21:29,574
without replay protection, how would you suggest people split their UTXO set so that they don't

1395
01:21:29,574 --> 01:21:39,494
send original BTC to an eCash wallet or an eCash DEX? Unfortunately, I think I misexplained this

1396
01:21:39,494 --> 01:21:43,735
because I've given people the wrong idea. So it must be partially my fault to some extent. But

1397
01:21:45,015 --> 01:21:51,175
it does have replay protection, but what it does not have, by default, it does not. So what I had

1398
01:21:51,175 --> 01:21:55,895
in mind was people would switch to our software if they cared, and then our software would

1399
01:21:55,895 --> 01:22:02,054
automatically split the coins. So we would never do something where, or at least by default it

1400
01:22:02,054 --> 01:22:06,375
doesn't, and it would try to warn you, it would never do something where you send the eCash

1401
01:22:06,375 --> 01:22:11,015
around and it sends BTC. And that was never even on my mind that that would even happen.

1402
01:22:12,455 --> 01:22:17,655
And what I did have in mind, though, was that if people say, hey, I'm not even paying any

1403
01:22:17,655 --> 01:22:22,214
attention to this eCash hard fork. I'm going to send my BTC somewhere. Well, then the eCash will

1404
01:22:22,214 --> 01:22:27,974
go to the new owner as well. And I like that because I think, well, you know, if you're not

1405
01:22:27,974 --> 01:22:33,574
paying attention, then you don't want it. And maybe it'll go to someone who does want it, and they can

1406
01:22:33,574 --> 01:22:39,974
split it. So if you like, okay, so first of all, there's, if you go to github.com slash eCash dash com,

1407
01:22:41,494 --> 01:22:48,134
then there's a fast fax repo that's pinned. And that has, sounds like a state, this sounds

1408
01:22:48,134 --> 01:22:53,095
like a state let's stop. And let me tell you why. Now, if someone really wants more eCash,

1409
01:22:53,095 --> 01:22:57,095
what would they do? They would probably put all their Bitcoin on.

1410
01:23:03,815 --> 01:23:08,455
Yeah, no, I hope that people, I think that that's funny and that's called phishing

1411
01:23:08,455 --> 01:23:12,214
for the, and I think there's already groups that want to do that. And some of them were

1412
01:23:12,214 --> 01:23:17,574
disappointed about the phased launch. That's doxing their set though. That's bad. That's

1413
01:23:17,574 --> 01:23:27,175
privacy. That's any, that's any UTXO fork. Right. I agree. No, no, no, no. Because here you are

1414
01:23:27,175 --> 01:23:33,655
explicitly doxing it by going to a KYC. Well, you know, this KYC exchange thing, I actually think

1415
01:23:33,655 --> 01:23:39,014
it's pretty weak. Like for example. Wait, wait, what do you mean? Why do I have to go to a KYC

1416
01:23:39,014 --> 01:23:43,494
exchange? Because when you withdraw it from the KYC, so when you withdraw the BTC from the

1417
01:23:43,494 --> 01:23:47,655
exchange, you are assuming the exchange isn't going to be paying attention and will also give

1418
01:23:47,655 --> 01:23:51,494
you the eCash. It might give you lots and lots. You can keep depositing and withdrawing and you

1419
01:23:51,494 --> 01:23:55,334
get different eCash all the time, but you just keep doing it over and over. Paul, that's not

1420
01:23:55,334 --> 01:23:59,174
good. Paul, that's not good. I like it. I think it's funny. I think it's great. No, it's actually,

1421
01:23:59,174 --> 01:24:06,935
I think it actually is. I would very much caution anybody against doing something like that because

1422
01:24:07,014 --> 01:24:13,734
the legality of that is very, very. Have you talked to exchanges about this yet? Do they know

1423
01:24:13,734 --> 01:24:19,334
that? If people like, you know, this is how it is and this is how, you know, if you want,

1424
01:24:19,334 --> 01:24:24,695
if you still want to ignore it, I think it's a perfectly just. Well, that's my, this is my

1425
01:24:24,695 --> 01:24:30,054
question, Paul. I don't want to ignore it, but I'm, I'm not also inclined to just necessarily

1426
01:24:30,054 --> 01:24:37,734
send my Bitcoin. You just have to run the new software and move your right. And that's what I

1427
01:24:37,734 --> 01:24:44,535
don't. What if I don't want to do that? There's a way of splitting. And again, if you go to,

1428
01:24:44,535 --> 01:24:48,135
and we link to, if you just go to eCash.com and click the GitHub icon in the top, right,

1429
01:24:48,135 --> 01:24:56,855
but it's github.com slash eCash dash com slash fast facts. There's a fast facts repo that it

1430
01:24:56,855 --> 01:25:02,294
has lots of facts, like how to mine, how to split the coins, whatever, you know, a lot of stuff is

1431
01:25:02,294 --> 01:25:06,454
up there. Like what are the ports? Have you decided on the difficulty yet? I thought you

1432
01:25:06,454 --> 01:25:11,014
were supposed to be, wait, you were supposed to be telling me which block or whatever I should,

1433
01:25:11,014 --> 01:25:15,174
but no, I think one, one advantage, there's many advantages. Well, hold on. Well, hold on,

1434
01:25:15,174 --> 01:25:21,415
Paul. Why, why not just add replay protection and make it simple? Well, there is opt-in replay.

1435
01:25:21,415 --> 01:25:27,894
Then it's not as fun. Yeah. I think the alternative is to have immediate total transaction

1436
01:25:27,894 --> 01:25:32,935
replay. But I don't think that that, I don't like that because that's basically. I mean,

1437
01:25:32,935 --> 01:25:37,655
but if you want, if you want exchanges to, like, if you want all exchanges to eventually list it,

1438
01:25:37,655 --> 01:25:41,255
wouldn't you want, like, wouldn't you need that? Once they list it, then. Yeah,

1439
01:25:41,255 --> 01:25:44,695
but then they're putting it on that software. Yeah. Then they know how. It's only the ones

1440
01:25:44,695 --> 01:25:49,255
who aren't that get that good game. Yeah. I think I want to reward. Which makes it actually kind

1441
01:25:49,255 --> 01:25:54,294
of gameable for the users who are interested in it. I mean, I think it's actually kind of

1442
01:25:55,655 --> 01:26:02,855
an interesting idea. There you go. Although you can say legally, I don't know if it's a great

1443
01:26:02,855 --> 01:26:07,655
idea, but I just think, yeah, if you're not paying attention, you're going to get left behind. So,

1444
01:26:07,655 --> 01:26:12,214
you know, we punish those that which stumbles must also be pushed.

1445
01:26:12,214 --> 01:26:17,334
We're afraid to put malware in this fucking software. People are going to explain. You

1446
01:26:17,334 --> 01:26:21,014
guys asking an awful lot of questions at once. You know, I got to explain you can do it even

1447
01:26:21,014 --> 01:26:27,334
without big brains. You don't download our software. You can. It's the nLockTime.

1448
01:26:27,334 --> 01:26:30,935
It's the blog. It's whatever. It's like four, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine,

1449
01:26:30,935 --> 01:26:34,935
but I would look up the exact number so you don't get it wrong. This is you make the transaction

1450
01:26:35,894 --> 01:26:41,334
in in the Bitcoin wallet. You just set and lock time to this value. And this will produce a valid

1451
01:26:41,334 --> 01:26:44,935
Bitcoin transaction, but it can't be broadcast for like five hundred years or something.

1452
01:26:44,935 --> 01:26:49,975
So you have to worry about it. And but that but on eCash, it is valid. That's like this

1453
01:26:49,975 --> 01:26:55,894
particular date is a backdoor. So we'll just ignore it. You can just sign it with your

1454
01:26:55,894 --> 01:27:01,894
hardware wallet. I didn't exactly hear you said you broke up a little bit, but you can just grab

1455
01:27:01,894 --> 01:27:07,014
a PSBT and just sign it with a hardware. Yeah. Anything that lets you control the nLockTime

1456
01:27:07,014 --> 01:27:12,375
and then you don't have to import your private keys into any anything invented by us. I also

1457
01:27:12,375 --> 01:27:15,415
didn't want because I also thought, well, that's kind of a big ask to ask people to

1458
01:27:15,415 --> 01:27:19,494
put their real Bitcoin price, especially especially right now, especially in the

1459
01:27:19,494 --> 01:27:27,014
moments that we have. Right. I fucking told you Paul would consider all this shit, even he isn't

1460
01:27:27,014 --> 01:27:33,575
that big of a fucking dick. And yeah, and I thought that's that's like a big ask. And we

1461
01:27:33,575 --> 01:27:38,054
didn't want like I was kind of at first thinking maybe it would be OK if well, you guys don't

1462
01:27:38,054 --> 01:27:41,655
really care that much about the thought process because this guy has his hand up again. So let's

1463
01:27:41,734 --> 01:27:48,535
let's hear what he has to say. I think he forgot to put his hand ATF. No,

1464
01:27:48,535 --> 01:27:54,935
did he have to say something else or no? Maybe not another question. I don't see my hand up,

1465
01:27:54,935 --> 01:28:01,494
guys. Oh, weird. This, though, you know, I swear to God, this app is so popular. You know,

1466
01:28:01,494 --> 01:28:06,294
I'm talking about Twitter and the fact and I know that, you know, like fired 80 percent of the

1467
01:28:06,294 --> 01:28:09,815
people and it still works and it has all these new features, which is great. But I mean,

1468
01:28:10,775 --> 01:28:17,015
why is the reliability like so bad? I just baffles me. Such a such an important app.

1469
01:28:18,215 --> 01:28:23,974
So the layer one is you're lowering the block size, right? It's going to be 300 kilobytes.

1470
01:28:24,614 --> 01:28:28,215
Well, you know, people don't seem to really care about that. I thought that would be interesting

1471
01:28:28,215 --> 01:28:31,494
and I'd be like, we're the real small blocker chain now. And I almost thought that would get

1472
01:28:31,494 --> 01:28:37,335
like carve off the Luke dimension. Now, over time, I think the better thing because everything about

1473
01:28:37,335 --> 01:28:41,494
the L1 will be exactly the same as Bitcoin Core. And I was just thinking, you know, maybe we'll

1474
01:28:41,494 --> 01:28:47,255
just drop this thing. This is like the only change made other than the phased rollout.

1475
01:28:47,895 --> 01:28:52,215
See, the phased rollout is also good because it lets people practice fishing for the exchange,

1476
01:28:52,215 --> 01:28:56,375
lets people practice. It lets us gives us some idea what the price and the initial difficulty

1477
01:28:56,935 --> 01:29:03,494
should be wicked. So it's kind of easier to have it not be chaotic. So I think the phased rollout

1478
01:29:03,494 --> 01:29:12,215
has an awful lot of advantages, including stuff about this type of thing. So. So, yeah,

1479
01:29:12,215 --> 01:29:15,335
what's the first what's going to be the first draft change? You know, did anyone

1480
01:29:16,294 --> 01:29:21,414
we make seven and there's already four or five that the other people have made.

1481
01:29:21,414 --> 01:29:25,174
So there's quite a way you make you made seven. Yes. Oh, yes.

1482
01:29:26,854 --> 01:29:31,015
OK, what are they now? For a while, but it's not for a very long time. Back when Peter Todd

1483
01:29:31,015 --> 01:29:37,494
was saying no one's written any software for this, he said that one is large blocks for scaling.

1484
01:29:37,494 --> 01:29:44,854
So that's called Thunder. One made a large one, you can go on GitHub and look at the tests

1485
01:29:44,854 --> 01:29:49,174
yourself tested to nine hundred sixty megabytes, but of course, it wouldn't be that

1486
01:29:50,375 --> 01:29:55,494
nine hundred sixty megabyte block size. It started like eight and grow geometrically to

1487
01:29:55,494 --> 01:30:01,654
eight hundred the first one. But yeah, you've tested with 14 of these big blockchain with 14

1488
01:30:01,654 --> 01:30:09,414
of these. It's can cover all every transaction in the world. Including cash, credit card,

1489
01:30:09,414 --> 01:30:15,255
et cetera, WeChat pay as back of the envelope math, but actually and then with the 14 of those,

1490
01:30:15,255 --> 01:30:18,695
you have every transaction in the world and actually the performance is very good. We had

1491
01:30:18,695 --> 01:30:23,815
a hackathon about the performance last summer. So you can see the tests for yourself on GitHub.

1492
01:30:23,815 --> 01:30:32,854
You can see the machines. This is on the on the large block size. Right now, too. You don't need

1493
01:30:32,854 --> 01:30:37,575
to run a node on this L2. Of course, you need a node. People need the node, but the node performance

1494
01:30:37,575 --> 01:30:42,294
is very, very good. It can do you can walk up. But if it's nine hundred and if it's over nine

1495
01:30:42,294 --> 01:30:48,375
hundred megabyte block size limit and the chain gets full, like people use the entire block size.

1496
01:30:49,255 --> 01:30:55,174
What kind of fucking node do you need for that? It's already been you can see the exact numbers,

1497
01:30:55,174 --> 01:31:01,255
the exact machines that do the benchmark. You can see the exact bandwidth usage on the tests

1498
01:31:02,935 --> 01:31:06,854
on GitHub. It's all open source. You can see the test. You can see the hackathon we did.

1499
01:31:07,654 --> 01:31:13,094
It's called I think it's called Summer 2025 Performance Hackathon. I could get the link

1500
01:31:13,094 --> 01:31:19,174
and post it in the nest. And what were the results? How big of a hard drive? How much RAM

1501
01:31:19,174 --> 01:31:26,054
do you need for a full like, you know, if the chain is filled with nine hundred megabytes worth

1502
01:31:26,054 --> 01:31:31,494
of fricking transaction? Now it's like 50 years, only a few thousand, maybe two thousand dollars

1503
01:31:31,494 --> 01:31:36,854
to set up and maybe one thousand dollars a month to operate. So it's a it's some amount, but it's

1504
01:31:36,854 --> 01:31:41,174
not like some magically insurmountable amount, unlike the Lightning Network, which will never

1505
01:31:41,174 --> 01:31:46,935
work at all, no matter what people do. Probably the same for Ark and Fedimint, because the people

1506
01:31:46,935 --> 01:31:51,575
behind Fedimint don't know. So this would be basically, so this layer would be for like

1507
01:31:51,575 --> 01:31:58,135
Visas, right? Like this would be the layer that Visa would be using, right? MasterCard. Okay.

1508
01:31:58,135 --> 01:32:04,695
And then there'll be another layer that has small blocks for plebs? Well, yeah, the L1, the idea was

1509
01:32:04,695 --> 01:32:09,255
make the L1 very small. Oh, that's the L1. L1 would be the small of the pleb for plebs.

1510
01:32:10,215 --> 01:32:15,815
Because in practice, even Bitcoin's blocks are not even full anyway, so it's not. I don't think

1511
01:32:15,815 --> 01:32:21,335
anybody cares about anything, dude. I really think most of the shit is being lived on exchanges and

1512
01:32:21,335 --> 01:32:25,815
people are just trading it like that. They've been doing basically since day one. I think two

1513
01:32:25,815 --> 01:32:32,695
other features are BitAssets, which is like the, you know, that's like your NFT, Solana,

1514
01:32:32,695 --> 01:32:39,015
Memecoin, whatever, USDT, Stablecoin back thing that Shinobi really doesn't like. So that's like

1515
01:32:39,015 --> 01:32:44,534
BitAssets. And then there's bid names, which is like a souped up version of Namecoin. But Shinobi

1516
01:32:44,534 --> 01:32:48,135
is going to have trouble hating on that one because Satoshi helped invent Namecoin. He was

1517
01:32:48,135 --> 01:32:54,614
very enthusiastic about it. You already had Visas on Bitcoin. I don't think, why would Shinobi even,

1518
01:32:54,614 --> 01:32:58,455
on Bitcoin I can understand, but like this isn't, like this is a different chain completely.

1519
01:32:59,414 --> 01:33:02,775
You already had Visas protocol on Bitcoin.

1520
01:33:02,775 --> 01:33:05,654
I didn't hear what he said. What did he say? What do we have on Bitcoin?

1521
01:33:05,654 --> 01:33:08,935
We have Visas protocol on Bitcoin already.

1522
01:33:08,935 --> 01:33:09,734
I've never heard of it.

1523
01:33:12,215 --> 01:33:15,335
I mean, it's just a shitcoin with different features.

1524
01:33:17,094 --> 01:33:23,734
The one made by someone else is Zside, which is Zcash based. So it uses like the Z,

1525
01:33:24,534 --> 01:33:28,695
you have the Z addresses from Zcash world to hide the sender, the receiver, the amount.

1526
01:33:29,494 --> 01:33:33,094
It's very, very strong privacy. Of course, there's more of a risk with the experimental

1527
01:33:33,094 --> 01:33:36,375
cryptography. Like they had a bug, but they fixed it. So.

1528
01:33:36,375 --> 01:33:40,455
So now an exchange, so I'm in the Zcash sidechain.

1529
01:33:43,335 --> 01:33:49,494
And I say one, like an exchange would have to accept that sidechain, right? In order for me to

1530
01:33:49,494 --> 01:33:50,135
send.

1531
01:33:50,135 --> 01:33:54,534
Well, I think they probably would not. I would imagine this would be like the non-exchanged

1532
01:33:55,094 --> 01:34:00,054
L2, right? But it doesn't matter because from the L1, you can get to the L2 and back.

1533
01:34:01,015 --> 01:34:06,294
So that's how I think. I don't think people would put this on the exchange because the exchange.

1534
01:34:06,294 --> 01:34:14,935
The UTXOs get broken up. So like if I send a UTXO on layer one to layer two to like one of

1535
01:34:14,935 --> 01:34:20,695
the sidechains, and then I send it back to layer one, do I get the same UTXO or do I get a

1536
01:34:20,695 --> 01:34:22,054
different UTXO at that point?

1537
01:34:22,054 --> 01:34:28,135
No, you get a different UTXO. And I invented this thing called Meltcast. And Meltcast like

1538
01:34:28,135 --> 01:34:34,054
rinses the, it makes it because it's so easy. People often misuse the privacy on Zcash.

1539
01:34:35,015 --> 01:34:39,255
So I have like a front end user experience thing to try to stop that from happening.

1540
01:34:40,135 --> 01:34:44,614
No, but I mean like not just that, not just the privacy second, like sidechain,

1541
01:34:44,614 --> 01:34:49,734
I'm talking about like any second layer. If I send a UTXO into a sidechain, when I

1542
01:34:50,375 --> 01:34:53,414
bring it back into layer one, it's always going to be a different UTXO?

1543
01:34:54,935 --> 01:34:55,435
Yes.

1544
01:34:56,935 --> 01:35:03,974
So it's like a mixer, basically. You could use these sidechains just in and out as a mixer,

1545
01:35:03,974 --> 01:35:04,534
more or less.

1546
01:35:04,534 --> 01:35:07,335
Uh, yeah, I think people would. And that's what Meltcast.

1547
01:35:07,335 --> 01:35:10,455
I think that's, I think that's going to be the biggest use case. It's just people are

1548
01:35:10,455 --> 01:35:13,734
going to fucking use it to mix their UTXO. I mean, if it ever gets used and people are

1549
01:35:13,734 --> 01:35:16,775
trying to like stay private and keep their wallets private.

1550
01:35:16,775 --> 01:35:21,575
Well, I think the Bitcoin community is very important to, you know, obviously that's kind

1551
01:35:21,575 --> 01:35:26,935
of what kicked all this off. I think that's a very important, you know, because that was

1552
01:35:26,935 --> 01:35:32,455
how I used to explain Bitcoin to people is I would say, well, hey, Bitcoin can do every

1553
01:35:32,455 --> 01:35:36,775
dark market transaction, but of course it can also end up doing every light market transaction.

1554
01:35:36,775 --> 01:35:39,815
So it's only a matter of time before it starts taking over the world.

1555
01:35:39,815 --> 01:35:42,775
That was like how I explained Bitcoin in like 2013 to people.

1556
01:35:46,695 --> 01:35:51,335
Yeah. You just, the only thing I'm thinking is that all this stuff needs liquidity

1557
01:35:52,294 --> 01:35:55,974
for it to be used. And most of the liquidity is staying on exchanges and no one's actually

1558
01:35:55,974 --> 01:36:00,935
using any of these fucking things. So I don't know how interesting it would be, but if in

1559
01:36:00,935 --> 01:36:06,054
a world where actually people care about the tech and people started using these things,

1560
01:36:06,054 --> 01:36:11,575
then it can get more interesting, but I just don't think anyone cares about anything.

1561
01:36:11,575 --> 01:36:16,215
There's another good thing about having many different L2s is that they do kind of share

1562
01:36:16,215 --> 01:36:19,815
liquidity to some extent. To some extent, they split liquidity, but like to some extent,

1563
01:36:19,815 --> 01:36:26,695
like if the only exchange that's supported is one of the Thunder scaling L2s, but none

1564
01:36:26,695 --> 01:36:33,254
of the other L2s are supported, that's not so bad because you then onboard people that

1565
01:36:33,254 --> 01:36:38,215
way and then they just use the software to move among the L2s. So it's kind of like you

1566
01:36:38,215 --> 01:36:42,615
just need to sneak one across the line. I think that's also another reason why USDT

1567
01:36:42,615 --> 01:36:48,455
is actually really good because it's like, okay, maybe people don't, you know, maybe

1568
01:36:48,455 --> 01:36:52,935
it's hard to operate an exchange, but maybe it's easier to just say, okay, listen, we'll

1569
01:36:52,935 --> 01:36:58,215
have a fully regulated KYC thing where you swap a hundred dollars for a hundred USDT.

1570
01:36:58,215 --> 01:37:03,014
But then once you're in the USDT world, now that's it. You can now do cryptographic swaps

1571
01:37:03,014 --> 01:37:08,455
and now you've escaped into cyberspace. And so I think that is also, all this stuff is very good.

1572
01:37:08,455 --> 01:37:14,294
That's all the more reason to have USDT on Bitcoin or on eCash in this case.

1573
01:37:16,215 --> 01:37:20,374
Pumpamentals need work, but I think we could do something with it. I think we could definitely

1574
01:37:20,374 --> 01:37:23,894
do something. But that's part of the BitAssets is you have the pumpamentals where you just say

1575
01:37:23,894 --> 01:37:29,254
anyone who wants to issue whatever Mr. Hoddle coin, you just do that over there and then you

1576
01:37:29,254 --> 01:37:33,815
have your like pump fun. And then, you know, to appease the people who hate all this thing,

1577
01:37:33,815 --> 01:37:38,134
you just remind them that, hey, this is all sequestered. This is all trapped in,

1578
01:37:39,495 --> 01:37:43,335
this is all trapped in its own L2. And if you don't, you know, this isn't on L1 anymore and

1579
01:37:43,335 --> 01:37:48,134
this is not any of the other L2s. I mean, it doesn't even matter. It's on eCash. It's not

1580
01:37:48,134 --> 01:37:52,134
on Bitcoin. So like, even if it's on L1, who gives a shit? It's on a whole different chain.

1581
01:37:52,695 --> 01:37:58,615
Yeah. Well, you might think that the same problems that people raised in BTC would

1582
01:37:58,615 --> 01:38:03,735
eventually come to any other coin that grew. Nah, I don't think so. I think there's a really

1583
01:38:03,735 --> 01:38:08,935
specific reason why people try to keep Bitcoin as small as possible, as nimble as possible.

1584
01:38:08,935 --> 01:38:16,855
I don't think it really matters for other altcoins. I mean, maybe, but I don't think any

1585
01:38:16,855 --> 01:38:23,254
other altcoin community is talking about keeping the blockchain as small and as efficient as

1586
01:38:23,254 --> 01:38:27,654
possible. I don't think anyone's talking about that. Yeah, that's why I thought it would be

1587
01:38:27,654 --> 01:38:31,495
cool to shrink the block size and say, oh, look how different we are. Like Bitcoin Cash expanded it,

1588
01:38:31,495 --> 01:38:36,534
Bitcoin SV expanded it, but no one seems to really have cared about us shrinking it. So I don't, maybe

1589
01:38:36,534 --> 01:38:40,054
they just don't care either way, or maybe they don't believe us or something. Also, it's kind of

1590
01:38:40,054 --> 01:38:44,455
the reason I was for, the reason I was for shrinking it was because we had a bunch of people that were

1591
01:38:44,455 --> 01:38:49,735
trying to get fucking gigabyte blocks. So I'm like, whoa, these people are going one way. I'm just

1592
01:38:49,735 --> 01:38:55,335
going to go extreme the other way. And Luke was like, yeah, 300 kilobytes. That's the one.

1593
01:38:55,335 --> 01:38:59,174
I'm like, all right, fuck yeah, 300 kilobytes. But that's not because I wanted it, it's just because

1594
01:38:59,735 --> 01:39:03,654
if we have an entire group that are trying to fucking raise the block size limit,

1595
01:39:03,654 --> 01:39:07,335
I felt like it was good to have an entire group that wanted to lower the block size limit,

1596
01:39:07,335 --> 01:39:12,855
just to even it out, you know? So you didn't actually have an opinion? I didn't really

1597
01:39:12,855 --> 01:39:20,054
care. No, not one megabyte's fine. I didn't really give a shit. I mean, I knew like

1598
01:39:20,657 --> 01:39:30,097
so I knew that Sega was a block size increase, but all the fucking big block hard forkers were like, no, it's just making it more efficient, blah, blah, blah, blah.

1599
01:39:30,097 --> 01:39:36,377
I'm like, no, no, no, it's a block size increase. That's what it is. So then I'm like, all right, I guess we're fucking compromising on four megabytes.

1600
01:39:36,377 --> 01:39:43,257
So that's the fucking compromise. So that's where it's stuck. But I really didn't care. I thought one megabyte was fine.

1601
01:39:44,177 --> 01:39:53,776
Once we had the witness discount, I was like, fuck it, four megabytes, I guess it's fine. But I really was like, we needed to even out the playing field.

1602
01:39:53,776 --> 01:40:07,936
Like we have an entire group like fucking Gavin wanted, like, what was it? He wanted like 30 megabyte block size limit. I remember Adam back wanted to raise it from two, four, six, and then eight, like every three or four years or something.

1603
01:40:07,936 --> 01:40:19,217
I mean, everyone's wanting to raise the block size, like, whoa, we need to, we need to, we need to slow down with this. And then when I talked to Matt, Greg Maxwell, and he was like, can't raise the block size like that.

1604
01:40:19,217 --> 01:40:30,296
That's crazy. And then I was like, yeah, that's fucking crazy. And then Satoshi was talking about how, you know, users are going to become tyrannical and wanted to lower the block size limit so they could run Bitcoin on nodes.

1605
01:40:30,296 --> 01:40:36,737
So then I was like, yeah, okay, this is my camp right here. But I really didn't care. That was more just a posturing thing.

1606
01:40:36,856 --> 01:40:58,777
Well, people have made the argument that says, hey, if you actually have scaling in layers, and your layers actually do meet whatever need, you know, you want, for whichever number of people, 8 billion people, or just whatever, whatever number of people, then actually L1 is like, each block is like 2000 transactions and change.

1607
01:40:58,777 --> 01:41:24,256
So that's 10 minutes 2000. So every 24 hours, it's like 144 blocks. So actually, that's kind of overkill. For people to just settle among, like, you can kind of look at the ratio of how many when you make a normal transaction with the debit card, if you have, like, if you're in America, and you're like Wells Fargo, and someone else's that chase, like how many of them are within the bank, and then how many of them are across banks, using the Fed or using Clearinghouse?

1608
01:41:24,256 --> 01:41:48,817
And then you could say, how many of them are within the United States, like within the US Federal Reserve System versus within the euro system versus how many are across, you know, how many have to settle using the Bank of International Settlements or whatever. So it's like, you know, 10,000 to one or like 100,000 to one or something. So it's kind of like, okay, actually, you don't need that many to settle. Right.

1609
01:41:48,817 --> 01:42:16,817
So some people have said, actually, the block site, the L1 block size is way too big, because you skip the right ways to scale in layers, and then just settle among the layers with L1. Although, paradoxically, people have said this, the opposite thing, when they talk about unilateral exit, I don't know if they mean to say this or not. But when they talk about unilateral exit, they're saying, basically, that they want everyone to be able to leave at least one of the L2s and end up on L1.

1610
01:42:16,817 --> 01:42:35,296
But that's not possible unless L1 is very big. So that whole criterion doesn't really make any sense. But I think if you want to live on the L2s, which is exactly what I think, exactly how I think it should work, and how it will work, then actually, the L1 doesn't need that much. It doesn't need 2500 transactions every 10 minutes.

1611
01:42:35,296 --> 01:42:50,817
No, but it needs demand. It needs the value to go up. It needs security, right? It needs hash power. It needs actual demand of the token, of the Layer 1 token. Because if that Layer 1 token doesn't have demand, then you're going to have a problem with security of everything else.

1612
01:42:50,817 --> 01:43:08,336
Yeah, as you know, part of the design is to emphasize merge mining as just this unlimited source of mining revenues, so that more and more and more mining revenues over time. And that perfectly solves security.

1613
01:43:08,336 --> 01:43:14,336
I forgot about the merge mining. So basically, you need Bitcoin to be in demand at that point.

1614
01:43:14,897 --> 01:43:26,897
No, because the L2s are merge mined with the eCash L1. So in the BIP300 world, they would be merge mined with Bitcoin L1. But in the eCash world, so the Wicked asked this earlier about...

1615
01:43:26,897 --> 01:43:38,896
So wait, how is it? Oh, wait a minute. That's right. You're doing SHA-256. You're keeping SHA-256. You're not merge mining with Bitcoin. Why don't you just merge mining with Bitcoin then? Why don't you just merge mine eCash with Bitcoin?

1616
01:43:39,456 --> 01:43:49,456
Well, because that would make it so that the new eCash could never survive without...

1617
01:43:49,456 --> 01:44:01,456
Exactly. If you see there's an actual market that people are actually using this shit and are interested, you could just hard fork again and split away from Bitcoin.

1618
01:44:02,016 --> 01:44:12,016
To get bootstrapped, you just merge mine with Bitcoin, bootstrap the network, get everything going, get your L2s going, and then hard fork away from Bitcoin later.

1619
01:44:12,577 --> 01:44:28,577
I don't think it actually helps very much. Because if you think about it, if you merge mine... merge mining is when all the chains are kind of cooperating. So then it's good. But if they're competitors, then you have one coin...

1620
01:44:29,137 --> 01:44:47,137
Let's just say that the total value... What's the total value of the BTC block reward? We have to just guess, but it would be something like whatever, three Bitcoin plus a little bit more plus some time multiplied by 70,000 or something. So let's just call it whatever, like 200. Let's just call it $250,000.

1621
01:44:47,697 --> 01:44:51,697
So that's the value of every BTC block every 10 minutes.

1622
01:44:51,697 --> 01:45:13,697
Now, even if it's merge mined, then the eCash L1, if it were merge mined with BTC, it would have 100% or some high percent, 80% of the hash rate, because you can check the cool BitMEX research and some cool articles. RIP, pour one out for BitMEX research that is going away, but they have a great merge mining article.

1623
01:45:14,257 --> 01:45:38,257
So the point is, let's just say they have 100%, but still, you're only contributing... Maybe that's only... Let's say if it's 1% of the value, then if the prices are 1%, you know what I'm trying to say, like BTC is $100k to $1,000, then that would only be... Instead of $250,000, that would only be $2,500.

1624
01:45:38,257 --> 01:45:52,817
So you still don't get a lot of loyalty from the miners. You know what I mean? You get some, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they really want to keep you around.

1625
01:45:52,817 --> 01:46:07,776
Yeah, but cool. I mean, if you go... Why don't you go to a pool and see if... Because not all pools mine Namecoin, right? I think there's a few of them that will distribute Namecoin.

1626
01:46:07,776 --> 01:46:33,456
Well, really, it's a very, very high percent. You can check the BitMEX research. And it's even though there was a time, like a story I used to tell often, even I would tell the story in 2014 and 2015, back in those years, I would say, well, listen, at that time, the value of Bitcoin block was like $5,000, $6,000. But the value of the entire Namecoin block was literally like $5. So it was like 1,000th.

1627
01:46:33,456 --> 01:46:35,456
Yeah, it was nothing.

1628
01:46:35,456 --> 01:46:42,417
But still, it had like 80% merge mining. And I don't know, I think that may have just been people wanting...

1629
01:46:42,417 --> 01:46:48,417
Yeah, I think because people thought there was potential there. I thought there was fucking potential with Namecoin. I thought it was genius.

1630
01:46:48,417 --> 01:46:50,417
Yeah, me too. So do I. I think it's great.

1631
01:46:50,417 --> 01:47:14,417
I thought there was... And I actually went to the pools that I made sure to get my fucking Namecoin when I was mining Bitcoin. I went out of my way to make sure I had a Namecoin wallet and everything. So yeah, even though there wasn't much of a reward there, I think people thought that there was going to be potential there. And why waste? I mean, if you're already going to mine Bitcoin, why not also get Namecoin?

1632
01:47:14,417 --> 01:47:36,417
The reason I would think merge mining with eCash would make sense is because now you don't have to fucking guess on the difficulty. And you don't have to guess on it. You could see how the market, people are interested in it. And if people are interested in it, now you can kind of feel where you would set the difficulty at a certain later time when you split away.

1633
01:47:36,417 --> 01:48:04,417
Well, that does help. I mean, the plan for that is just to have the test runs and see where that difficulty lands and try to have fork futures to see what the eventual price will be to see where that lands. But I think what I was trying to say is that it doesn't ultimately help you that much because think about it. If the miners, they decide that they don't want to support it anymore because it's only 10 cents and then Bitcoin is $250,000, then they could still drop you.

1634
01:48:04,417 --> 01:48:21,417
And at that point, you're stuck with like a super high. But it is cool. Vanilla merge mining is kind of neat because the way Namecoin works is that it could still, you can either mine Namecoin without using the merge mining or you can use it from anything that is Bitcoin shaped.

1635
01:48:21,417 --> 01:48:43,417
So there was a time in 2017 where the difficulties were oscillating between Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash. And actually Namecoin was skimming the cream off of. So when one was higher than the other, it would merge mine using those blocks. And then when the difficulty switch and the miners switch to Bitcoin Cash, those were also Namecoin blocks.

1636
01:48:43,417 --> 01:49:04,417
So Namecoin actually had the highest hash rate for a period of time in 2017 as a result of the vanilla merge mining, which is funny. But you see, this just goes to show you that the hash rate to some extent, it helps like that would really, really help if some random person like some random crazy billionaire wanted to attack Namecoin.

1637
01:49:04,417 --> 01:49:33,417
So that helps, but it doesn't actually help. It's, you know, it's kind of like you get foundry, but you only get like, 0.5% of their mind, their brain, their mind share, their attention. So it's kind of like then if you lose them, it's not. So I thought it would be better to just have a clean break, because the hard fork, you want it to have like its own fate, I think, actually, you don't want it to really be tied. You want them to be like alternatives, I think.

1638
01:49:34,417 --> 01:49:56,417
That's just my opinion. But I think there are a lot of me like they were, there was a point where there was a lot of SHA-256 coins at one point. And eventually, they, most of them all started to merge mine with Bitcoin. But today, I don't think any of them do anymore. Because I remember Mazda coins, you remember MazaCoin that like, Indian tribe coin.

1639
01:49:57,417 --> 01:50:17,417
They were SHA-256. And then eventually, like, you know, it wasn't profitable. And they ended up merge mining with Bitcoin. But I don't, I think it only lasts for like a few months, and then miners kind of just drop them. But that all SHA-256 coins were merge mining with Bitcoin at some point until they ended up getting dropped.

1640
01:50:18,417 --> 01:50:29,417
Um, but they didn't start out merge mining, right? They were they started out on their own, but kind of like doge, like doge started out on its own. And then emerge mine with Litecoin.

1641
01:50:29,417 --> 01:50:58,417
I think merge mining with BTC makes perfect sense when when Namecoin was invented, because the idea was that Namecoin would be a separate blockchain that had a separate purpose that was doing this bit DNS name thing. And it wouldn't interfere with BTC. And so the two would cooperate. But I think that's actually bad. Like, it's kind of like what if you were saying, like, you're going to have Walmart compete with Sears, you're going to have Amazon compete with Walmart.

1642
01:50:59,417 --> 01:51:14,417
And you want like, you want them to have some kind of like, cooperative relationship. I think that is actually not a good idea. You know, that's just not healthy. It would be like, you know, what if you should the Republican Party merge mine with the Democratic Party? I think that's actually not good.

1643
01:51:14,417 --> 01:51:43,417
No, maybe not. But maybe like to bootstrap a new party, you would merge mine and then and then you go on your own way after that. And then anti merge mine. Yeah. And then anti merge. Like, you know, you build up the brand, you build up the all of it, and then you go on your way you because like, it's really, I think it's just really, really hard to fucking bootstrap from from Genesis these days. Like, you know, in 2016, when shit coins are popular 2017 2018. Yeah, but I don't think that's a good idea.

1644
01:51:44,417 --> 01:51:51,937
I think bootstrapping from Genesis today is going to be a way more difficult. But maybe I'm wrong.

1645
01:51:51,977 --> 01:52:08,776
No, I do think it will be difficult. But I think it's kind of like, all the stuff that would make it hard on day one would then apply also to like the day at which you shut off the merge mining that you were sort of relying on. So I kind of think it, it just like kicks the can down the road.

1646
01:52:08,776 --> 01:52:23,097
Yeah, but you would yeah, but you kind of get the feeling of like, like something you would see, like, what the price of the tokens are like, the layer twos, if there's actual demand on these layer twos, like, yeah, you would see it before

1647
01:52:23,097 --> 01:52:38,097
we do the stage, we're doing the stage launch. It's also because like, there was so much just cultural chaos in Bitcoin that was like, you know, it's like overwhelming with Coldcard and with all this other stuff. So it's like, okay, ramp it up a little bit.

1648
01:52:38,776 --> 01:53:08,657
And you postponed it, right? It's no longer in August. Now, it's in October, you do get in August, you still get basically the same thing. But it's like officially in October. So in August, you still get the alpha release, basically, that's what we call it now. So I think it would have been fine to do it in August. But it was just like, there was just so much. See, the funny thing is, I was, you know, I like many of you here, I thought 110 was a complete nothing, anything. And I thought they would get like, no attention.

1649
01:53:22,500 --> 01:53:26,380
And then I was thinking we want to give people like four months is probably enough time to

1650
01:53:26,380 --> 01:53:28,380
have people think about it.

1651
01:53:28,380 --> 01:53:33,700
So that was like, I didn't even think at all about it being like so close to this BIP-110

1652
01:53:33,700 --> 01:53:38,019
thing or whatever, I was more in favor of like trying to let people have a long time

1653
01:53:38,100 --> 01:53:39,100
to think about it.

1654
01:53:39,100 --> 01:53:40,100
Did you point Kimi?

1655
01:53:40,100 --> 01:53:43,739
Did you point Kimi at eCash?

1656
01:53:43,739 --> 01:53:50,459
We have an ongoing bug bounty contest where you can win first, second, or third place.

1657
01:53:50,459 --> 01:53:53,660
And certainly those people are doing lots of AI stuff.

1658
01:53:53,660 --> 01:53:56,899
So yeah, I think Portland's well aware of the bug bounty.

1659
01:53:56,899 --> 01:54:03,700
So I think he's been pointing Kimi at eCash to scoop up some of those rewards.

1660
01:54:03,700 --> 01:54:09,500
Also partly, you know, that has also gone because we've done stuff like that before.

1661
01:54:09,500 --> 01:54:17,220
And people are now like the amount of just raw bug finding firepower is very high.

1662
01:54:17,220 --> 01:54:22,019
And you can see that many, a lot of things have been closing down some temporarily, but

1663
01:54:22,019 --> 01:54:26,660
you can see a lot of Bitcoin projects have said that.

1664
01:54:26,660 --> 01:54:31,380
I think this is probably one of the worst times to launch any software project, let

1665
01:54:31,380 --> 01:54:33,660
alone a crypto project.

1666
01:54:33,660 --> 01:54:36,779
You definitely picked a good time to do it.

1667
01:54:36,779 --> 01:54:37,779
Yeah.

1668
01:54:37,779 --> 01:54:43,820
So I think, you know, slowing it down is it's disappointing for me because I was thinking

1669
01:54:43,820 --> 01:54:44,820
we said this date.

1670
01:54:44,820 --> 01:54:47,420
So it's a matter of integrity to some extent.

1671
01:54:47,420 --> 01:54:49,140
People think it'll be delayed forever.

1672
01:54:49,140 --> 01:54:55,899
But you know, I think just slower is kind of better for something.

1673
01:54:55,899 --> 01:54:58,779
And this has a lot of advantages to rolling it out in stages.

1674
01:54:58,779 --> 01:54:59,779
So this is cool.

1675
01:54:59,779 --> 01:55:03,700
You can practice with this one that you can practice again with September and then everyone

1676
01:55:03,700 --> 01:55:09,059
can have all their stuff totally ready to go for end of October.

1677
01:55:09,059 --> 01:55:13,019
I think that that should be more fun for everyone.

1678
01:55:13,019 --> 01:55:14,019
All right.

1679
01:55:14,019 --> 01:55:15,019
I'm going to bed.

1680
01:55:15,019 --> 01:55:16,019
I'm going to bed too.

1681
01:55:16,019 --> 01:55:17,019
Good night.

1682
01:55:17,019 --> 01:55:18,019
Peace.

1683
01:55:18,019 --> 01:55:19,019
Hey, thanks a lot.

1684
01:55:19,019 --> 01:55:20,019
Thanks for coming up.

1685
01:55:20,019 --> 01:55:21,019
See you guys.

1686
01:55:21,019 --> 01:55:22,019
See ya.

1687
01:55:22,019 --> 01:55:23,660
Talk to you later, Paul.