1
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Robin, hey, what's up?

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Hey, Paul. How are you?

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I'm good. Another Friday. We made it.

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Thanks for inviting me.

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Oh, yeah. Thanks for coming on our little show or whatever this is.

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I'm sure historians of the future will get something out of it.

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So you've been, it's been smooth sailing through the Bitcoin consensus peer review process.

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I can see.

9
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You could say so.

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Yes. Yes. And now, I mean, who even needs BIP300 because the system works.

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The system just is a meritocracy.

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Everything's fine. Who needs competition?

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Because, you know, whatever, Michael Folkson can just do it all for us.

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Yeah. He single handedly fixes Bitcoin. Definitely.

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Yeah.

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I think without him, we would definitely, Bitcoin would have doomed already.

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Yeah. So what's the latest with BitVM?

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Yeah, I promised that we are publishing like a first toy version by the end of this month.

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End of January.

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End of January. Yeah. Within the next five days.

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And it seems like we might make it. I don't want to promise too much.

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I already promised it for December.

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Software, timeline.

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Yeah. It's hard to make predictions in particular when they concern the future.

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Yeah. Yogi Berra said something like that, I think.

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Software timelines are especially cursed.

27
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Yeah. But we're making great progress.

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So we had SuperTestNet on late November.

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He said that he and you have like sort of a very different way of going about BitVM.

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And he was saying that he was trying to get basically like a black and white Game Boy emulator to work.

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And that it would take like unbelievable amounts of time and RAM, like far too much.

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But he said you were doing something very different that was much better.

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Yeah. I'm not exactly sure how that Game Boy emulator turned out.

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But, yeah, we are doing a very different approach.

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We are actually implementing a RISC-V virtual machine.

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And, yeah, you can run any program on that virtual machine.

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And if there's a dispute, you can succinctly find the liar.

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Right. So in the context of maybe the context of like sidechains, the program would be the sidechain full node.

39
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Yeah. And in particular, the bridge.

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Getting back to the withdrawal transactions from L2 to L1.

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And if anyone does the wrong thing on this, you will be able to know who it was that lied.

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And then you will be able to do something.

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You'll be able to trigger something.

44
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They could like lose some money or just be disqualified or kicked out of the group or something.

45
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Yeah, both. Like they will lose money and they will get kicked out of the group.

46
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There's always one operator.

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In general, it's a federation.

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And the assumption is that one of the federation members is honest.

49
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And as long as that is the case, then the bridge is secure.

50
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Both live and secure.

51
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So you cannot stop it.

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Live means you cannot stop it.

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And secure means nobody can steal the funds.

54
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And yeah, there is like that federation.

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And one of the members is chosen to be the operator who might touch the funds.

56
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But if he tries to touch the funds without doing a legal packout, then you can slash them.

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You can take their deposit and then they will not be able to touch the funds anymore.

58
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But the deposit, they must deposit a certain amount, of course, up front in order for it to be slashable.

59
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Yeah.

60
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But it's not proportional to – there are two words.

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There's collateral and deposit.

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And deposit is what you bridge in.

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And the collateral does not have to be proportional to the deposit.

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The collateral is proportional.

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You just think like maybe they don't want to lose the – since they can't steal anyway, it just matters.

66
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Do I get the – does the fee income outweigh the cost of capital for what could be slashed?

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Exactly that, yes.

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So you just have to put up a collateral that is high enough such that if you make a baseless dispute and you lose,

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then you have to pay the winner's fees and a little bounty for them such that they are happy to get attacked.

70
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Got it.

71
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Yeah, that makes sense.

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Cool. And maybe done by January, first version.

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But like a very, very simple toy version.

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Like it's written in JavaScript, so like it's just because –

75
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I mean, I don't know.

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People laugh at – I mean, JavaScript is like an inside joke.

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But there is that.

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If you've seen like that, you must have seen like, thanks for inventing JavaScript, like the meme.

79
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And it's just like all the different – like 50 minus 1 in quotations.

80
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And then that is like a character.

81
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And then 50 plus 1 in quotations is like a number or something.

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51, the number.

83
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Just like all the bizarre and absurd paradoxes of JavaScript.

84
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Yeah, and the empty array is equal to zero.

85
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And the empty object is equal to zero.

86
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But the empty array is not equal to the empty object and stuff like that.

87
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Yeah, and then it's like true equals true in quotes equals true equal equal equal true.

88
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And it's like false or something.

89
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I mean, I totally don't want to defend JavaScript here.

90
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I totally see that.

91
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I'm more laughing at like how other people will react.

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I'm like a meta laughing at the meme, the meme of JavaScript.

93
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Yeah.

94
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It's a funny – it's just funny that you bring it.

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Like this is a funny thing that people do.

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They have to like – they feel like they have to hang their head in shame if they bring up that, oh, it's in JavaScript.

97
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I mean, it's a big responsibility to build a real product in JavaScript.

98
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Like a real security product.

99
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So, but why make it in JavaScript then?

100
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Oh, it was just that our first task was mostly to figure out how to really build BitVM.

101
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And to scaffold it out, it was much faster for me and my team to just use JavaScript because it's kind of a native tongue.

102
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And, yeah, it was just way faster.

103
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But as soon as the prototype is done and as soon as we got some feedback on it, we will throw it away and rewrite it properly in Rust.

104
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Cool. Yeah, everyone loves Rust these days.

105
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Yeah, it just roots out like entire classes of bugs.

106
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So, I think it makes a lot of sense to use it.

107
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I think the hype is justified too.

108
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Yeah, I think so too, probably.

109
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It's hard to say, but I think so.

110
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Very neat.

111
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So, still, why – because BitVM is held up as the, like, don't need to change Bitcoin type of thing.

112
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So, then why care about Michael Fox and et cetera, you know?

113
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It was a question that probably some people might ask.

114
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Like, some people didn't really understand what I was about.

115
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Like, I don't have that strong feeling for this PR in particular.

116
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Like, I don't really care if it's merged or not.

117
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But what I care about is, like, tossing the Bitcoin development process with bullshit.

118
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Because I think there is no question if somebody is polluting the UTXO set and they are saying that they are polluting the UTXO set,

119
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then it's pretty silly to argue if they are actually polluting the UTXO set or if it's just, like, some sort of artistic performance or something.

120
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Because it doesn't matter at all.

121
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Like, from a technical perspective, the UTXO set gets polluted with nonsense.

122
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And that is an issue.

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And it might be the case that it's not possible to mitigate it effectively.

124
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And I'm open to that possibility.

125
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And I can accept it if it's true.

126
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But I think it's pretty silly to toss that discussion with, like, nonsense.

127
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Well, I kind of feel the same way.

128
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Like, I mean, I think BIP300 is the way to go.

129
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But I kind of almost even – I kind of, like, am almost more concerned by, like, okay, this is a BIP that just counts the 13,000.

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Merge mining has already been invented and in continuous use for, like, a very long time.

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Like, since 2010.

132
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And so I'm just, like, this is not going to make it, like, through the process easily.

133
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And I kind of think, like, that is, like – I really think, like, oh, we're doomed in some much more fundamental, bigger way.

134
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Honestly.

135
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I kind of think that is the case.

136
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Mike.

137
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I mean, Bitcoin development is particularly hard because I think – what's his name?

138
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Eric Lombroso?

139
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Yes, that is someone's name.

140
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He's a co-author of SegWitBip.

141
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He recently posted something that I really agree with, which is politics is so ugly because the smartest people with the best character, they avoid it the most.

142
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And it kind of attracts the opposite.

143
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Like, it attracts, like –

144
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Yeah, that's true.

145
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And I think that is also very true for Bitcoin development.

146
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And that makes it particularly hard.

147
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And also, like, some of the developers I admire the most or whose work I admire the most already told me that they don't want to participate in Bitcoin politics anymore because it makes them sick.

148
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Like, actually sick.

149
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Yes.

150
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Well, this is a thing with Taproot where people – and with 1.18, certainly – where they were finished and then people refused to even discuss activation for a very long time.

151
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Which is how Speedy Trial came about.

152
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Like, exasperation.

153
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Someone just kind of maverick YOLO'd this Speedy Trial thing.

154
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And even that was very controversial.

155
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People were like, why are they doing this?

156
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And then it just kind of activated quickly.

157
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Yeah, well, particularly during Taproot.

158
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Like, Taproot activation was much more complicated than it had to be because of Michael Folsom, right?

159
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He was the dude who never contributed any line of code, who doesn't have any background in software engineering.

160
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He never contributed to any open source project or something.

161
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But suddenly he came into Bitcoin and explained how Bitcoin works to some of the most knowledgeable developers.

162
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And pretty much, I think, at least half of the long-term maintainers told him to shut the fuck up.

163
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Well, it's always bad when – I think it's a very – like, anything when it's vague, that's bad.

164
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So if it's vague and abstract, when people say something like, well, miners don't control Bitcoin, we learned this in 2017.

165
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Something like that.

166
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Like, that's a very bad sign.

167
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But if people say, like, on this line of code, this will put an extra item onto the stack or something, and this is a bug.

168
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Like, that's very good.

169
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You don't have to be very near and very specific.

170
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That's kind of what I have noticed.

171
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So sometimes people show up and then they want to say, like, blah, blah, blah.

172
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And it's too abstract.

173
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So it's a waste of time.

174
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And I think, like, in particular, if someone doesn't have any experience with these things, then they just should not explain it to the people who know it.

175
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Like, it's so easy to be wrong.

176
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And all the people who are knowledgeable, they are usually quite humble because they have experienced so often how easy it is to be wrong and how easy it is to be super convinced that they are right.

177
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And then they figured out that they were actually wrong in some miner detail that's, in the end, turned it by 180 degrees.

178
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And that's why I think somebody who has no experience, like Michael, should just not interfere with the process at all.

179
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Like, he can read it and he can try to learn from it and he can contribute to, like, smaller projects that don't matter as much and where the quality – where it's not that important that you really know your stuff.

180
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Because in Bitcoin, a single issue can break everything, right?

181
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It has to be, like, quite perfect what we do there.

182
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And I think people should be humble and not pretend that they could contribute something without doing the work up front and without becoming competent.

183
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Yeah, I think the process is defective in very many ways.

184
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But if you say that – I mean, because people always have – there's, like, two different directions where, on one hand, people say, this is a meritocracy.

185
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Anyone can contribute to core.

186
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And then, on the other hand, they say something like, some people just know what's best and others don't.

187
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So it's like – it is – goes back and forth between these two extremes.

188
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And I don't know. I'm not sure.

189
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I think the smartest thing would be to build error correction into every stage.

190
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So you'd say something like, if the Bitcoin community does not do a pull request they should have done, how does that error get fixed?

191
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Versus if they do a pull request, you know, type one error, type two error.

192
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If they do the pull request they should not have done, how does it come about that that is fixed?

193
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That is partly why I think sidechains, in whatever form they ultimately take, will be absolutely essential.

194
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Because if you say something like, we don't really need multisig or we don't really need vaults, and then – but the technology can support that.

195
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Someone will build it into the sidechain.

196
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So Bitcoin Core will just become less popular.

197
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A smaller proportion of the 21 million coins will be on there.

198
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And then they will be on – move to the sidechain and this will kind of naturally have some kind of accountability.

199
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It has sort of like some accountability for moving too slow in addition to like making a mistake.

200
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People have made all kinds of mistakes and then there's no accountability for that.

201
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Or if there is, there's just – doesn't seem to make any practical difference.

202
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So, I don't know.

203
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But I do think there's – I think there's a very brisk pace of –

204
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altcoin R&D to the point where – and no one can even keep track of it all. And normal people do not – normal people, they really like the – like they really like obscure coins.

205
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They don't really – like the layperson is not going to understand any of this nuance.

206
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So, I don't – it's not great that something like USDT on Tron can be like really big and no one will care.

207
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And at the end, the only innovation that Bitcoin will bring is like a block, like a hash linked list and like being – having control of money via asymmetric key cryptography.

208
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And then everything else will just be just whatever the user experience is the best.

209
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Yeah, I don't know if we need like USDT on Bitcoin necessarily. In general, like from a technical perspective, it's not really interesting, right?

210
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From a technical perspective, it just doesn't make any sense really. It would make much more sense if they just had a centralized database, like if Tether would be running a centralized database. But that is illegal.

211
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Well, I don't know about that because I think you just – you have like a kind of like a conveyor belt where it's like the – on one hand, you have like the fully – you're in the KYC umbrella. It's like – it's kind of like an onion routing or something.

212
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You have the stage where you – someone is KYC and they swap their fiat for crypto. That part, it's kind of like it doesn't matter so much if it's centralized database. But then those people will swap in the blockchain system. And then all of a sudden, it becomes private and self-sovereign. So, you just go like three links away and you have the best of both worlds.

213
00:19:40,741 --> 00:19:51,741
Yeah. It's not really self-sovereign because Tether can just refuse to pay you out, right? Like they can just nullify your Tether.

214
00:19:52,741 --> 00:20:08,741
Well, that's true. But the way – like just the way it happened to pan out is that – so, first of all, imagine that it's very easy to mix the USDT or whatever.

215
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I totally see the point.

216
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So, it's not like censoring one person. They have to either pull the plug on the whole operation or on only – or keep the whole operation going basically. And now, they have certain amount of the USDT is lost, the high interest rates. Let them just bank all this money and just make like a big return. They charge a little bit of a fee. I mean, it's worth like a huge amount of money.

217
00:20:41,741 --> 00:20:58,741
I'm just saying like if they wanted to make it just as private as possible, they could just use Xiaomi and eCash, right? And that would scale way better and would be just as private or even more private. And you would have essentially the same security guarantees in the end.

218
00:20:58,741 --> 00:21:20,741
And I'm just saying that from a technical perspective, it's not really interesting because they are mostly using that technology to circumvent stupid laws. And that's not very interesting from my point of view because it's not really a technical challenge that much than it is a legal challenge.

219
00:21:20,741 --> 00:21:49,741
Well, yeah, sure, I suppose. Yeah, the Xiaomi and eCash point, that's a very good point. I wonder how that – if this is all just because of the historical trajectory where it was originally on MasterCoin which then became Omni on BTC which later became like Omni on other things and later just became –

220
00:21:50,741 --> 00:22:07,741
the USDT asset like moved from Bitcoin to like other chains and eventually Tron. So I wonder if that's why they didn't – it never occurred to them to do Xiaomi and eCash. I don't know.

221
00:22:07,741 --> 00:22:30,741
Well, I think what they do – that's a good question because – but I think that Tether – from what I remember – I don't really use Tether, but from what I remember talking to like some Tether – whatever, I don't know, executives or whatever you would call them.

222
00:22:37,741 --> 00:22:51,741
I think they put – I think they deployed all their troops like around that, and then they try to just say, if you're not depositing or withdrawing, you're just sending it. Then I think they tried to like not look at it.

223
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it to yourself a bunch of times or, and then it kind of disappears until someone wants

224
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to withdraw. If they ever want to withdraw, many, significant huge majority

225
00:23:08,340 --> 00:23:09,760
don't. Yeah, just keeps growing.

226
00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:11,680
Ever withdraw. Yeah.

227
00:23:12,380 --> 00:23:14,680
yeah, that's a new question

228
00:23:14,741 --> 00:23:15,741
But –

229
00:23:15,741 --> 00:23:17,741
Yeah, BitVM, USDT.

230
00:23:17,741 --> 00:23:28,741
My friend told me that there is like some law in the U.S. that essentially says if you're a company facilitating payments from one person to another, then you have to –

231
00:23:29,741 --> 00:23:43,741
Money transmitter, yeah. But I think – my guess – I have no – this is two people who have really no idea what they're talking about. But my guess is that Tether will go out of their way to say that they are not doing the money transmitting.

232
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They just – they deposit it with – they don't move – they would say probably they don't move the USDT at all.

233
00:23:49,741 --> 00:23:50,741
Yeah, exactly.

234
00:23:50,741 --> 00:23:53,741
This is some technology. Right, yeah, it's the miner or some technology. Someone else does.

235
00:23:53,741 --> 00:23:58,741
That's the only reason – that's why it's not very interesting for me from a technical perspective.

236
00:23:58,741 --> 00:23:59,741
Yeah.

237
00:23:59,741 --> 00:24:04,741
Because from a technical perspective, they should just use Charmian eCash and then that's all.

238
00:24:04,741 --> 00:24:10,741
What if they're – what if like BitVM, Charmian eCash? Is that in the cards?

239
00:24:10,741 --> 00:24:14,741
You mean for BTC then?

240
00:24:14,741 --> 00:24:16,741
Yeah, yeah.

241
00:24:16,741 --> 00:24:26,741
Because you can already just create a mint and then back it by USDT and then you have it, right? So, the interesting question.

242
00:24:26,741 --> 00:24:36,741
Yeah, no, I mean with the BTC, yeah. Because the Charmian eCash has the drawbacks that it doesn't really solve double spend.

243
00:24:37,741 --> 00:24:44,741
Yeah. I mean, I guess you could probably have some kind of fraud proof.

244
00:24:44,741 --> 00:24:53,741
So, if the mint double spends, then you can probably derive fraud proof and then you can punish them for it.

245
00:24:53,741 --> 00:24:57,741
So, that would be a solution.

246
00:24:57,741 --> 00:25:08,741
But in general, I think just a sidechain is better, like some – a Zcash sidechain or something like that, I think, has better guarantees.

247
00:25:08,741 --> 00:25:16,741
Also, in particular, a liveness guarantee, right? The blockchain will just keep running and a mint can die.

248
00:25:16,741 --> 00:25:21,741
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's good.

249
00:25:21,741 --> 00:25:26,741
Also, I think, in general, I would like to prevent or phrase differently.

250
00:25:26,741 --> 00:25:36,741
I think L2 systems should not be modeled such that, in the worst case, all of the users have to exit to L1 because that's not very practical.

251
00:25:36,741 --> 00:25:38,741
Right. That is not good.

252
00:25:38,741 --> 00:25:42,741
Because if everyone can – we already know it's basically a proof by contradiction.

253
00:25:42,741 --> 00:25:52,741
It's like if everyone could – if it's possible for everyone to exit L2 to L1, well, in that case, it's possible for all those people to use L1 at least once.

254
00:25:52,741 --> 00:25:58,741
But we kind of already know that that's not possible, so it's kind of a –

255
00:25:58,741 --> 00:26:13,741
Yeah, you have to have something where it can granularly rearrange the asset claims on L2 and kind of rebatch them up to some other place.

256
00:26:13,741 --> 00:26:14,741
Right.

257
00:26:14,741 --> 00:26:30,741
Ideally, you would have multiple L2s, and if one L2 is going to explode, people would swap assets around for different L2s, and then at the end, there would be 130 people who walk it back from L2 to L1.

258
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I think the L2 should be unstoppable. I think if you have a decent sidechain consensus mechanism, then there is – of course, you can always stop it if you just have enough resources, but –

259
00:26:45,741 --> 00:26:55,741
Yeah. I mean, because there is the 50 – because this is weird. I feel like I get in trouble for bringing up – I bring up the 51% attack thing.

260
00:26:56,741 --> 00:27:15,741
And in a weird way, I feel like I'm unfairly punished, because most other people don't even bring up that quite – like, no one has ever said, like, will 51% of the hash rate steal from the Lightning Network or whatever, which is kind of annoying for me, because I mean, I kind of feel like I have to bring it up, since mine is so miner-centric, but still, like, other people –

261
00:27:15,741 --> 00:27:16,741
But to steal –

262
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Like, really, everything.

263
00:27:17,741 --> 00:27:26,741
It's harder to steal from the Lightning Network than it would be from drivechains, right? Like, from drivechains.

264
00:27:27,741 --> 00:27:43,741
Well, I don't think – I think it's, like, once you write the software, maybe it's actually easier, because you would write the software, the LN theft software, and then it would just automate all that weird stuff, like figuring out which channels to attack and just blocking the justice transaction.

265
00:27:43,741 --> 00:27:52,741
So, it would take a little bit more work up front. You have to make, like, the open source lightning – like, we would call it, like, lightning rod or something.

266
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Tesla coil or whatever.

267
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Just picture the situation where you have, like, 100 or 1,000 BTC locked in a drivechain, and then try to get counterparties for Lightning with 1,000 BTC. That's – I think that's –

268
00:28:14,741 --> 00:28:18,741
Well, right now, more than half of it is already just the same five LSPs.

269
00:28:18,741 --> 00:28:19,741
Oh.

270
00:28:19,741 --> 00:28:23,741
There's already just – like, the problem with the Lightning Network really is that –

271
00:28:24,741 --> 00:28:32,741
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know how much liquidity they would give you, but I guess –

272
00:28:32,741 --> 00:28:39,741
It seems like we already agree that you have to target your victims much more precisely.

273
00:28:39,741 --> 00:28:46,741
Yes. That's true. But you have less – you have a little bit less recourse, though, as a result.

274
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Putting off such an attack, then somebody has to invest, like, quite some time, resources, and effort. And I don't think –

275
00:28:56,741 --> 00:29:02,741
Yeah, I think the bigger problem is that the Lightning Network is so small. It's not even 5,000 coins total.

276
00:29:02,741 --> 00:29:20,741
So, I think that's kind of the real problem with the comparison, is that it's already – like, people say I can't, like, hold it up as a great example of either something that will be imminently killed or something that is really secure, because it's only whatever it is, like $100 million or something.

277
00:29:20,741 --> 00:29:25,741
So, it's just – you know, it's a lot of money to some people, but in terms of, like –

278
00:29:26,741 --> 00:29:40,741
So, I would definitely consider, like – I think there will be in the future, like, Bitcoin will scale in layers, and those layers will have, like, a significant percentage of the coins.

279
00:29:40,741 --> 00:29:47,741
Like, of the 21 million coins, there will be, like, whatever. Like, 10 million plus will be on some type of L2.

280
00:29:47,741 --> 00:29:48,741
Wow.

281
00:29:48,741 --> 00:29:49,741
It'll be circulating.

282
00:29:50,741 --> 00:29:51,741
So, it'll only get to 5,000.

283
00:29:51,741 --> 00:29:52,741
Do you see it still on Ethereum?

284
00:29:53,741 --> 00:30:02,741
A hundred and – like, 150,000, something like that. It's between, like, 140 and, like, 180 or something. So, that's, like, a completely different number.

285
00:30:05,741 --> 00:30:18,741
So, yeah. Even though Lightning Network gets a lot of attention, I think this is kind of undeserved and basically just a weird side effect of the fundraising trajectory.

286
00:30:19,741 --> 00:30:29,741
But – so, like, to attack the BIP300, it's less – you don't have to target the victim, but you also have the problem that since everyone is a victim, you have more, like, just natural enemies.

287
00:30:29,741 --> 00:30:34,741
It's, like, every single person is going to be naturally against you. Every user, all the sidechains.

288
00:30:35,741 --> 00:30:41,741
So, it's just kind of, like, a different type of a thing. I don't know, like, which is – I don't know if they can be Apple staff.

289
00:30:41,741 --> 00:31:01,741
But, like, for, like, BITVM, you cannot ever forge – I mean, I guess if 51% hash rate is one of the participants in the federation, they cannot fake the node, what the sidechain full node will do.

290
00:31:01,741 --> 00:31:17,741
But they can, like, filter messages from – they can filter a message from ever making it into the L1 chain. So, they can never get slashed and they can just kind of halt the process, I guess.

291
00:31:17,741 --> 00:31:19,741
They can also –

292
00:31:19,741 --> 00:31:22,741
Because the sidechain just died or something.

293
00:31:22,741 --> 00:31:30,741
Yeah, because they will – you will never be able to put the NAND, the zeroed out thing in, like, the fraud proof thing in.

294
00:31:30,741 --> 00:31:34,741
But I think, yeah, I think that's a general limitation of L2s.

295
00:31:34,741 --> 00:31:45,741
Yeah, so, and I – you and I agree with that, too. But, see, this is the weird thing is that, of course, people don't – well, I think that people don't really apply this consistently.

296
00:31:45,741 --> 00:31:54,741
And in a weird way, it's because the news is so bad for something like lightning, I think, that they don't. But maybe I'm biased, of course.

297
00:31:54,741 --> 00:32:02,741
But it's like they – because there is no recourse, people just don't even bring it up. They say it's a general thing.

298
00:32:02,741 --> 00:32:12,741
Whereas I'm kind of trying to say – with BIP300, I'm trying to say, like, there is recourse because they lose all this fee revenue.

299
00:32:12,741 --> 00:32:17,741
And maybe even the price of Bitcoin goes down because it's no longer a multi-chain coin.

300
00:32:17,741 --> 00:32:26,741
So, it's kind of weird. I have a very different way of analyzing the situation, certainly, I think.

301
00:32:26,741 --> 00:32:41,741
I mean, there are lots of subtleties to it. And it's not that easy to argue that it's really the same as lightning or that the trust assumption is –

302
00:32:42,741 --> 00:32:49,741
Like, in general, the question is, like, how much harm can you create when you have a malicious hashrate majority?

303
00:32:49,741 --> 00:32:58,741
That is kind of the debate, I guess, that it all boils down to. How much harm can you create?

304
00:32:58,741 --> 00:33:08,741
And it's kind of very easy to reason about what you can do with drivechains because it just immediately breaks.

305
00:33:08,741 --> 00:33:12,741
You can just force the withdrawals and just take the money.

306
00:33:12,741 --> 00:33:20,741
And I think for other systems, it's just more complicated to reason about the worst case and how bad it can get.

307
00:33:21,741 --> 00:33:33,741
But, as I said, I think it's harder in lightning, but not that much harder. It doesn't make the attack unfeasible.

308
00:33:36,741 --> 00:33:42,741
Oh, yeah. I kind of think it's a little easier. Imagine you attack some random person's chat.

309
00:33:42,741 --> 00:33:47,741
It's like a mosquito thing. You take one bite, and then you take another bite, and then you take another bite.

310
00:33:47,741 --> 00:33:53,741
Because it's like someone's just going to say – someone's going to go on Twitter or whatever, and they're going to say,

311
00:33:53,741 --> 00:33:57,741
oh, I lost my lightning channel. It deleted all my money.

312
00:33:57,741 --> 00:34:05,741
And everyone's just going to be like, yeah, you probably screwed up, or you probably had database corruption or something.

313
00:34:06,741 --> 00:34:13,741
Sorry for your loss. But no one will care. No one will mount a resistance.

314
00:34:13,741 --> 00:34:20,741
People will be like, no, you don't understand. Someone broadcasted an old state, and the thing didn't work.

315
00:34:25,741 --> 00:34:32,741
I don't agree with that. Maybe you can do that for a million sats or something.

316
00:34:32,741 --> 00:34:43,741
But as soon as that happens to a significant amount of Bitcoins, then people will stop creating new channels, right?

317
00:34:45,741 --> 00:34:57,741
Yeah, but that's sort of the point, though, is to vampirically attack the lightning network and drain the money from it.

318
00:34:58,741 --> 00:35:04,741
Yeah, but I think it's not possible, because you have to create new channels to fight new victims, no?

319
00:35:06,741 --> 00:35:14,741
Well, yeah, but if people stop – it's true that you wouldn't be able to take all the money that is on the lightning network,

320
00:35:14,741 --> 00:35:19,741
but it's true that that would be because the amount – everyone would just leave the lightning network, and it would go to zero.

321
00:35:19,741 --> 00:35:23,741
Maybe it's not really worth – it's kind of splitting hairs, maybe.

322
00:35:23,741 --> 00:35:34,741
I did always – I played around with an idea in 2018 that I put on some slides about if the miners felt like lightning network was taking their fees,

323
00:35:34,741 --> 00:35:42,741
they would just spitefully kill the lightning network with the goal of driving people back to on-chain or to merge mining also.

324
00:35:43,741 --> 00:35:53,741
I was kind of interested in that idea at some point, which I've heard some miners say out loud in English.

325
00:35:53,741 --> 00:36:02,741
They're just going to say that the lightning network is taking their fees, but I don't think that's a very widespread opinion.

326
00:36:03,741 --> 00:36:09,741
So I don't think they would – I mean, most miners are very technically clueless, I think.

327
00:36:09,741 --> 00:36:16,741
No offense to them, but they don't know – they have no idea what taproot is today or whatever.

328
00:36:16,741 --> 00:36:19,741
They don't know what any of this stuff means.

329
00:36:20,741 --> 00:36:24,741
They're very specialized.

330
00:36:24,741 --> 00:36:34,741
Their goal is to convert hashes to – I mean, electricity and other inputs, ASICs, into hashes as much as possible.

331
00:36:34,741 --> 00:36:37,741
So they're very specialized, which in a way is a very good thing.

332
00:36:37,741 --> 00:36:40,741
It's like – in a way, it's also a very bad thing.

333
00:36:40,741 --> 00:36:42,741
I mean, there's a lot of mining paradoxes.

334
00:36:42,741 --> 00:36:51,741
So a lot of people say, oh, we want mining to be very decentralized so that no one can, like, disturb or subvert the system.

335
00:36:51,741 --> 00:37:05,741
But actually, that's part already true and part undesirable, because it's also good – like, if everyone has too small of a percentage of the hashrate,

336
00:37:06,741 --> 00:37:20,741
if you have a pie chart with lots of tiny slices, then there's kind of like a communist collective action problem where it's like no one feels responsible for the network.

337
00:37:20,741 --> 00:37:23,741
No one takes ownership of the network.

338
00:37:24,741 --> 00:37:29,741
But as a result, then they won't – they either won't know.

339
00:37:29,741 --> 00:37:31,741
They won't, like, activate taproot quickly.

340
00:37:31,741 --> 00:37:35,741
They won't activate CTV or whatever it is.

341
00:37:35,741 --> 00:37:39,741
And they also won't really research.

342
00:37:39,741 --> 00:37:40,741
Like, they don't –

343
00:37:41,390 --> 00:37:44,750
they'll just rely on someone else's opinion for taproot. It'll be a lot like – kind of like a

344
00:37:44,750 --> 00:37:49,230
democracy also, where everyone has a very small share of the vote. So everyone just thinks,

345
00:37:49,230 --> 00:37:56,110
why should I research the issues too much, because my vote is not – it's very unlikely to be, like,

346
00:37:56,110 --> 00:38:01,550
a pivotal vote. I probably won't have a big impact on the outcome. So in that sense,

347
00:38:01,550 --> 00:38:04,350
it's sort of undesirable. And in another sense, it's already happened.

348
00:38:04,350 --> 00:38:15,150
So it's very interesting. I think one thing that ocean mining pool tried to do but failed to do,

349
00:38:15,150 --> 00:38:21,310
but that would be a good idea if people did do it, would be that if we could further reduce

350
00:38:21,310 --> 00:38:27,150
the leverage of the pools by paying miners out as frequently as possible,

351
00:38:28,669 --> 00:38:30,590
I think that would be a very good thing to do.

352
00:38:31,470 --> 00:38:33,230
Are they already using lightning?

353
00:38:35,630 --> 00:38:40,989
I think they don't – well, like, it's very weird. So for example, people who are at the

354
00:38:41,630 --> 00:38:48,190
ocean mining pool event, just as an example of how weird this can sometimes be, they told me

355
00:38:48,190 --> 00:38:52,669
that there was a Q&A and the ocean people said that they did not want to do any – they did not

356
00:38:52,669 --> 00:38:57,870
want to run any lightning infrastructure. So that's what I heard. This is hearsay.

357
00:38:58,510 --> 00:38:59,709
But I mean, I've heard it.

358
00:38:59,709 --> 00:39:00,510
Did they give any reasons?

359
00:39:00,510 --> 00:39:08,349
So I think they said it was too complicated and too much to technically support.

360
00:39:09,550 --> 00:39:16,029
But we should ask – we'll invite Luke and have him hang out in the space. He can tell us whether

361
00:39:16,029 --> 00:39:19,550
or not – because this is weird because this is what everyone assumed is, of course, that,

362
00:39:19,550 --> 00:39:23,390
okay, they're going to pay out things over lightning. But even that doesn't really work

363
00:39:23,390 --> 00:39:30,589
because if you're new – you want to join the pool, you're a new hasher, you know as well as

364
00:39:30,589 --> 00:39:35,949
I that, like, they have to join – the pool has to, like, open a channel with them that contains

365
00:39:35,949 --> 00:39:41,709
exactly as much liquidity from the – the pool has to, like, pre-pay them the amount of money

366
00:39:41,709 --> 00:39:47,470
that they plan to pay them over this time period. And that is not free. That costs – the total,

367
00:39:47,470 --> 00:39:52,349
in fact, is pretty expensive. You say, if I think they're going to earn – so the way it works is

368
00:39:52,349 --> 00:39:59,790
this. You're new – you invest $10 million in ASICs and you plug them in. You have a power

369
00:40:00,430 --> 00:40:07,310
contract. You plug them in and you point the hash rate at Ocean Pool. And you say,

370
00:40:07,310 --> 00:40:11,310
I want to get paid out frequently over lightning. Ocean Pool says to you,

371
00:40:12,670 --> 00:40:18,269
how much money do you think you'll earn over this month or whatever? And they say, be honest.

372
00:40:19,230 --> 00:40:22,510
And then you say, whatever. I think over this month I'll probably earn,

373
00:40:24,590 --> 00:40:29,070
you know, that you guys will have to pay me. I'll probably earn, whatever, I don't know,

374
00:40:29,070 --> 00:40:36,590
I'm just making up a number, $300,000. They have to open a – Ocean Pool has to find $300,000 worth

375
00:40:36,590 --> 00:40:42,430
of Bitcoin and open the channel with that, you know, like on that – those beads on their edge

376
00:40:42,430 --> 00:40:48,829
of the string with nothing from your edge, nothing from the ASIC owner, miners, and the

377
00:40:48,829 --> 00:40:55,790
clients. There could be an LSP between the miner and the user. But the LSP has to put front to the

378
00:40:56,829 --> 00:41:02,909
– the LSP's channel has to have the $300,000. It just shifts the problem over. Yeah, but they

379
00:41:02,909 --> 00:41:10,989
are already solving their problem, right? This is their job. Which is what? To provide liquidity

380
00:41:11,070 --> 00:41:18,269
to people who want to join the Lightning Network. Ah, well, but yeah, but it has a fundamental cost.

381
00:41:18,269 --> 00:41:23,310
Yeah, yeah. You know, like if they – yeah, so it has to be $300,000 worth of beads. Like,

382
00:41:23,310 --> 00:41:29,230
when you join the Lightning Network, it's like you have a string with beads. And you're going to

383
00:41:29,230 --> 00:41:35,950
start with nothing on your side, presumably, although maybe, you know, for denial of service

384
00:41:35,950 --> 00:41:41,549
purposes, you would have like $1,000 or something. I don't know. But the point is, in order to ever

385
00:41:41,549 --> 00:41:47,549
receive the $300,000 over the month, someone else has to have – you know, you have to have a string

386
00:41:47,549 --> 00:41:52,989
with $300,000 somewhere in the – you know, 300,000 beads, a string connected to you from someone.

387
00:41:54,030 --> 00:41:57,790
So someone has to open – they have to have $300,000. I mean, this is like kind of

388
00:41:57,790 --> 00:42:03,309
maybe what more what ARK would be solving. But I mean, if you're really –

389
00:42:04,189 --> 00:42:06,510
Then you can just make on-chain transactions, probably.

390
00:42:09,629 --> 00:42:17,390
Well, yes. But I'm just trying to make an example of why they would not – the Lightning – like,

391
00:42:17,390 --> 00:42:23,710
this is the point, though, is that Lightning doesn't actually – in many ways, Lightning

392
00:42:23,710 --> 00:42:27,869
makes the problem worse, because the Lightning onboarding, you know, for a large amount,

393
00:42:27,869 --> 00:42:36,349
is a significant amount of financial capital is locked up on day one that's going to maybe be paid

394
00:42:36,990 --> 00:42:43,790
later. So I'm just trying to – oh, no. Robin went connecting. This is the most glitchy app.

395
00:42:45,390 --> 00:42:50,950
Oh, no. My blue dots have stopped bouncing, too. Hopefully, everyone can –

396
00:42:51,830 --> 00:42:55,670
oh, I hope he comes back. Or he doesn't. Okay, right.

397
00:42:58,790 --> 00:43:04,390
Well, Elon, you know, he fired three quarters of the employees. And it's true that this site

398
00:43:04,390 --> 00:43:16,469
still works. But does it always work 100 percent? Not always. But maybe we'll see. Okay, he's back

399
00:43:16,469 --> 00:43:25,029
as listener. Maybe he'll reconnect. Anyway, I was just trying to say, well, maybe why it's the case

400
00:43:25,029 --> 00:43:32,390
that – see, the thing is, you don't know if it's – you have a lot of unknowns on day one of the

401
00:43:32,390 --> 00:43:39,110
month. So I was just trying to say – I was going to try to explain, perhaps, why they would not use

402
00:43:39,110 --> 00:43:43,589
Lightning. Although all these times that people have said, like, people who weren't there,

403
00:43:44,550 --> 00:43:49,749
people who weren't there at the actual event, they just, like, immediately took it for granted

404
00:43:49,749 --> 00:43:54,710
and started tweeting about how – I don't know. Robin is back, but now he's connecting again.

405
00:43:56,309 --> 00:44:01,830
I don't know why this happens. Hopefully, it will stop happening, though. I think it's only

406
00:44:01,830 --> 00:44:05,749
a matter of time before my app crashes, also, because the blue dots have stopped bouncing,

407
00:44:05,749 --> 00:44:16,869
which they normally do. They normally bounce. But I was just trying to say that everyone – this

408
00:44:16,869 --> 00:44:22,869
idea spread around that they'll be paying out over Lightning and that this will be a great

409
00:44:22,869 --> 00:44:34,950
win for Lightning. Ah, yes, you're back. Anyway, I don't think that they – yeah,

410
00:44:34,950 --> 00:44:41,670
so, like, if the amounts are big, then – but you see, that doesn't – yeah,

411
00:44:41,670 --> 00:44:51,510
one question would be, like, no one does this now. So, for example, almost every – the way the

412
00:44:51,510 --> 00:44:55,589
mining relationships work is they build – you build up, like, money in your, like, account,

413
00:44:55,589 --> 00:45:03,909
and then you get paid out in – you have an aggregation batching, and then you get paid out

414
00:45:05,110 --> 00:45:10,869
so – for whatever reason, the current economics of the situation make it so that most people

415
00:45:13,110 --> 00:45:19,429
go a long time. But it would be better for Bitcoin and for pool competitiveness,

416
00:45:19,429 --> 00:45:24,869
and it would be better for miners themselves if they were paid out as rapidly as possible.

417
00:45:25,670 --> 00:45:35,749
That would be the best thing. That would solve a wide array of overlapping issues, including

418
00:45:35,749 --> 00:45:44,710
even that – even that the reason why Foundry has to do KYC AML is even related to that, because it

419
00:45:44,710 --> 00:45:51,349
is related to, like, the commingling of funds, and, like, people have, like, assets at Foundry

420
00:45:51,349 --> 00:45:55,270
until they are paid out. So, if we could make the payout process very, very rapid,

421
00:45:56,469 --> 00:45:59,510
that would be great. But I'm just trying to say the Lightning Network doesn't automatically fix

422
00:45:59,510 --> 00:46:07,189
that. It just kind of shifts it to the channel open. The channel open requires liquidity. So,

423
00:46:07,189 --> 00:46:12,950
the channel open is basically, like, one on-chain transaction, but then it saves maybe N future

424
00:46:12,950 --> 00:46:16,869
on-chain transactions, but it has the drawback that it requires all this upfront liquidity.

425
00:46:22,150 --> 00:46:25,910
So, there's risk of opening a channel with the wrong person. You open a channel – even if you

426
00:46:25,910 --> 00:46:31,270
just open a channel with someone and they just go AWOL, then you can get your money back, but you

427
00:46:31,270 --> 00:46:37,590
don't get it back immediately. You have to wait the two weeks or whatever. So, that is itself a risk.

428
00:46:38,950 --> 00:46:44,070
So, it's not – you know what I mean? Like, yeah, I wouldn't, like, open a channel with someone.

429
00:46:45,030 --> 00:46:52,629
You'd really – so, this is kind of tough because the situation is not great. But you could do this

430
00:46:52,629 --> 00:46:57,910
with BIP300, but we don't have BIP300 yet. So, or with BitM, you could just have a thing where

431
00:46:57,910 --> 00:47:05,189
the miners are assigning. The pool has a bunch of money on the L2, and the pool just pays everyone

432
00:47:05,989 --> 00:47:13,749
out rapidly on L2, never on L1. And then the miners don't care. They're getting paid

433
00:47:14,869 --> 00:47:18,549
from someone frequently. So, that would be good.

434
00:47:20,950 --> 00:47:27,749
Yeah, I think Lightning could really excel as, like, a glue between many L2s. Like, I think we

435
00:47:28,309 --> 00:47:36,710
need a free market of L2s, of, like, roll-ups and sidechains and everybody.

436
00:47:36,710 --> 00:47:41,749
I think it would be – well, I certainly think that, yes. I think the channel,

437
00:47:45,109 --> 00:47:48,150
the bidirectional payment channels will certainly be

438
00:47:48,710 --> 00:47:58,390
a part of the future. But I don't know if the HTLC idea will make it into, like, 20 years from now,

439
00:47:58,390 --> 00:48:01,749
if anyone will use that. Maybe they will say –

440
00:48:01,749 --> 00:48:04,309
You mean, like, payment channels without HTLCs or what?

441
00:48:05,910 --> 00:48:11,510
Yeah, I think, like, people will just do the N factorial. Like, because I think it'll be log,

442
00:48:11,510 --> 00:48:14,549
rhythmically distributed. So, there'll be, like, hub and spoke.

443
00:48:14,549 --> 00:48:15,109
Yeah.

444
00:48:15,109 --> 00:48:19,350
Kind of like how Barak is saying about, like, how he's kind of, like, trying to make, like,

445
00:48:19,350 --> 00:48:25,989
one huge R-cub or something. It's, like, you know, it's not literally what I mean, but I'm just, like,

446
00:48:26,789 --> 00:48:35,910
poking fun at this idea that it'll probably be log distributed. So, it will be, like, there will be,

447
00:48:35,910 --> 00:48:37,590
like, a few really big people.

448
00:48:37,590 --> 00:48:38,090
Yeah.

449
00:48:38,950 --> 00:48:42,869
Really big transacting accounts. It'll be, like, whatever, BitPay, Coinbase,

450
00:48:43,109 --> 00:48:45,749
stuff like that, theoretically, or some version of that.

451
00:48:46,470 --> 00:48:50,549
And those things will all have the N factorial. They'll just have channels with each other

452
00:48:50,549 --> 00:48:57,429
directly, and they won't, like, route the HTLC, I think. I think that idea is just not going to go

453
00:48:57,429 --> 00:49:03,189
anywhere, but I may be totally wrong. If so, people in the future can play this clip,

454
00:49:03,189 --> 00:49:10,869
and then they can put, like, the whatever, slide rule, sound effect, or whatever.

455
00:49:11,830 --> 00:49:12,470
Or whatever.

456
00:49:15,989 --> 00:49:16,489
Yeah.

457
00:49:18,150 --> 00:49:25,510
Whatever. Price is right. Horn effect. But, because the reason is that it's just,

458
00:49:25,510 --> 00:49:31,830
it takes so many bytes to add the HTLC output, and it has, you need, like, at least,

459
00:49:32,390 --> 00:49:37,429
you need, like, at least 32 to describe the hash, and then 32 to actually give the

460
00:49:38,390 --> 00:49:43,830
the pre-image, the R, and then you have to, this is, like, to make the output, and then spend it.

461
00:49:44,710 --> 00:49:50,710
This is already, like, 100 and something bytes. It's, like, a lot of bytes. So, I just think...

462
00:49:51,350 --> 00:49:56,070
Well, but, like, with Dapro channels, you don't need that, right, in the cooperative case?

463
00:49:58,229 --> 00:50:05,030
But the cooperative case isn't important. The only, the cooperative case is never the

464
00:50:05,030 --> 00:50:08,390
important case. It's always the worst-case scenario.

465
00:50:09,189 --> 00:50:15,910
I disagree here, because I think, like, most channels close bilaterally, you know?

466
00:50:17,189 --> 00:50:21,910
I think only a minority of channels close with it.

467
00:50:21,910 --> 00:50:26,950
But if it's the case that it won't work, I think they're related in, like, a completely

468
00:50:26,950 --> 00:50:32,710
different way, which is, like, the better the justice is, like, the more...

469
00:50:35,350 --> 00:50:40,150
The better you are taken care of if it's an uncooperative close, that will make,

470
00:50:40,150 --> 00:50:44,070
that is what makes it cooperative close, because people say, you know, it's like,

471
00:50:45,109 --> 00:50:49,989
you know, you're holding, like, a big gun, and it works really well and cheaply. So,

472
00:50:49,989 --> 00:50:54,710
everyone's like, okay, listen, I don't want to uncooperative close, because they'll get

473
00:50:54,710 --> 00:51:00,070
everything they want. So, they have to... Oh, no, Robin is now two people.

474
00:51:01,429 --> 00:51:07,590
They are connecting again, dot, dot, dot. Well, we have also Walt. We have a Walt Smith is here.

475
00:51:07,590 --> 00:51:12,549
Hello, if you want to say anything, while Robin reconnects, maybe.

476
00:51:14,869 --> 00:51:20,229
Oh, no. To me, that sounds like a lot of noise, and I can't hear you easily.

477
00:51:25,590 --> 00:51:27,189
Hmm.

478
00:51:31,189 --> 00:51:36,150
I do not hear you. I saw you give a sad face, and then mute and unmute, though.

479
00:51:39,910 --> 00:51:47,350
Could be me. I don't know. All right. I suppose not. Oh, wait. Hello. Yes.

480
00:51:50,470 --> 00:51:51,910
Nope. I don't hear you.

481
00:51:55,510 --> 00:51:59,189
No audio.

482
00:52:18,150 --> 00:52:18,710
Can you hear me?

483
00:52:24,950 --> 00:52:31,510
That's odd. Oh, wait. Wait. I can hear you now. Great. Ah, you can hear me. Good.

484
00:52:33,830 --> 00:52:37,189
Okay. Yes. Weird app, sometimes. Very temperamental.

485
00:52:40,710 --> 00:52:47,350
So, yeah. The HTLC, like I'm saying, the whole point of having the HTLC output as the

486
00:52:47,350 --> 00:52:52,470
intermediary node is that, if you don't know, it's like, the idea is you don't know these people.

487
00:52:53,429 --> 00:52:57,989
So, if they both disappear on you or something,

488
00:52:59,270 --> 00:53:03,189
it doesn't matter, because you can go on-chain and get the thing redeemed.

489
00:53:05,350 --> 00:53:09,749
But for a normal payment, like most payments are like, whatever, $20 or less,

490
00:53:11,590 --> 00:53:14,629
it's just not going to be worth it on L1, at least.

491
00:53:16,789 --> 00:53:21,350
Even on L2, it'll probably be better to just use the L2s payment thing or use some other

492
00:53:21,350 --> 00:53:27,109
kind of thing that is, instead of HTLC, it will be the, whatever, the UTXO,

493
00:53:30,710 --> 00:53:38,789
whatever it's called, LT, whatever, you know, the UTXO, LTC, or whatever, ALTC,

494
00:53:40,309 --> 00:53:42,470
or whatever it is the L2 does.

495
00:53:42,470 --> 00:53:49,510
That is my guess.

496
00:53:51,910 --> 00:53:58,789
Like, my guess would just be that we have, you know, sidechains, and then there are liquidity

497
00:53:58,789 --> 00:54:06,150
providers who have channels into Bitcoin and into other liquidity providers might have channels into

498
00:54:06,150 --> 00:54:11,189
other sidechains. And then when you make, want to make a payment, you just create an ad hoc channel

499
00:54:13,189 --> 00:54:21,910
that can be open within, I don't know, probably within seconds or like instantly, if you just

500
00:54:21,910 --> 00:54:25,510
add something like OP_CAT or something to the sidechain such that you can have these

501
00:54:26,869 --> 00:54:31,429
committed non-signatures, where you have like that one-time scheme such that you can

502
00:54:31,429 --> 00:54:36,789
essentially have secure zero confirmation transactions. And then you can create ad hoc

503
00:54:36,789 --> 00:54:42,789
channels instantly, and then you can pay anyone anywhere in the entire ecosystem instantly.

504
00:54:43,350 --> 00:54:46,950
And I think that that would be great, great usability.

505
00:54:47,750 --> 00:54:53,750
Yeah, I agree. Yeah. You know, I like the zero conf, the OP_CAT zero conf, like

506
00:54:55,029 --> 00:55:00,309
slashable, single-use bond thing idea.

507
00:55:00,870 --> 00:55:05,110
Yeah, and ad hoc channels are great for Lightning, I think. For end users,

508
00:55:06,070 --> 00:55:07,269
they will need ad hoc channels.

509
00:55:09,830 --> 00:55:15,590
Ad hoc channels. But that's like, you open the channel because

510
00:55:16,789 --> 00:55:18,710
none of the existing channels solve your problem.

511
00:55:23,590 --> 00:55:28,789
You want to pay outside of your own, of your base chain, of your home chain. Like,

512
00:55:28,789 --> 00:55:33,750
you're in sidechain A and you want to pay someone in sidechain B or somebody who is on the main

513
00:55:33,750 --> 00:55:40,230
chain. And then you just create a channel that's created instantly, and then you just use the

514
00:55:40,230 --> 00:55:43,350
Lightning network for a second, and then your channel is gone.

515
00:55:47,509 --> 00:55:50,389
Yeah, I suppose.

516
00:55:50,389 --> 00:55:54,549
If you can just open it quickly enough, and quickly enough, then there is no real

517
00:55:54,549 --> 00:55:58,710
liquidity problem. And I think sidechains can offer that.

518
00:55:58,710 --> 00:56:02,549
But there's also no real reason to call it a channel.

519
00:56:03,029 --> 00:56:10,389
Yes, you need a channel to make cross-chain payments, right? Because most likely, the person

520
00:56:10,389 --> 00:56:14,389
you want to pay is not on your chain. And the more chains there are, the more likely it is that

521
00:56:14,389 --> 00:56:16,389
you're not paying a person on the same chain.

522
00:56:20,070 --> 00:56:24,950
That's true. But I actually think it's not that hard to

523
00:56:25,750 --> 00:56:31,509
imagine a world where there's like nine big payment chains, and they all have some kind of

524
00:56:31,509 --> 00:56:35,990
geographic distribution. So there's like North America chain or whatever, Europe chain.

525
00:56:37,029 --> 00:56:42,389
And then most of your payments would be, for overwhelming majority of payments for most people,

526
00:56:42,389 --> 00:56:50,950
would be inside the chain. And then sometimes you'd be switching from dollars to euros or something,

527
00:56:51,669 --> 00:56:56,549
which, except way better than the current scheme, but it would still just be like some kind of thing

528
00:56:56,549 --> 00:57:02,549
where it doesn't necessarily absolutely need a million percent.

529
00:57:06,549 --> 00:57:13,990
To totally focus on that always being the case, I don't, I certainly, I think there should be many

530
00:57:14,389 --> 00:57:23,429
more chains, but I don't know. I think no matter what the case is, the chain can only survive if

531
00:57:23,429 --> 00:57:29,830
it is popular. Like maybe in the case of drivechain, it must be popular to be secure. But even

532
00:57:29,830 --> 00:57:34,230
in the case of something else, like if it's really not popular, then it's kind of just like a dead

533
00:57:34,230 --> 00:57:39,269
project in a way, because there's all the other things that people need to coordinate around.

534
00:57:41,417 --> 00:57:43,957
Like everyone needs to standardize, basically.

535
00:57:44,817 --> 00:57:47,377
So there will have to be standardization.

536
00:57:47,377 --> 00:57:48,897
So kind of like the more popular thing,

537
00:57:48,897 --> 00:57:52,217
we'll just weigh in and everything else will probably not.

538
00:57:52,217 --> 00:57:54,977
Optimize away inefficiencies,

539
00:57:54,977 --> 00:57:58,056
and that is a strong argument for what you just said,

540
00:57:58,056 --> 00:58:00,657
that even if we have multiple sidechains,

541
00:58:00,657 --> 00:58:04,337
then probably people will gravitate towards the sidechain

542
00:58:04,337 --> 00:58:07,337
where most of their payments can happen in that chain

543
00:58:07,337 --> 00:58:09,037
without having to leave the chain.

544
00:58:11,417 --> 00:58:14,097
Yeah, people will just jointly want to coordinate.

545
00:58:15,056 --> 00:58:16,737
It'll just be to their, everyone's advantage

546
00:58:16,737 --> 00:58:18,897
to like have their trading partners,

547
00:58:18,897 --> 00:58:20,137
just they'll join the chain

548
00:58:20,137 --> 00:58:22,376
that most of their trading partners are on,

549
00:58:22,376 --> 00:58:23,856
and then paradoxically,

550
00:58:28,336 --> 00:58:31,937
then their trading partners will get more people to join.

551
00:58:31,937 --> 00:58:33,777
I'm just interested if it really works though,

552
00:58:33,777 --> 00:58:38,297
because like even relatively a small country,

553
00:58:38,297 --> 00:58:42,097
well, it's not that small in terms of population.

554
00:58:42,097 --> 00:58:44,376
Germany has like 80 million people,

555
00:58:44,376 --> 00:58:47,376
and now imagine a sidechain

556
00:58:47,376 --> 00:58:50,336
where 80 million people transact every day,

557
00:58:50,336 --> 00:58:51,936
or like make all of their transactions,

558
00:58:51,936 --> 00:58:53,497
or most of their transactions on that chain.

559
00:58:53,497 --> 00:58:58,497
I think that would be, I'm not sure if that would scale.

560
00:59:00,817 --> 00:59:01,737
Well, it's not so bad.

561
00:59:01,737 --> 00:59:04,976
I mean, I did some envelope math, you know,

562
00:59:04,976 --> 00:59:07,336
like I think you could,

563
00:59:07,336 --> 00:59:11,577
it's like nine, if you had nine chains,

564
00:59:11,577 --> 00:59:13,417
and then, see, like, cause you have to like,

565
00:59:13,417 --> 00:59:15,417
I have a lot of weird assumptions,

566
00:59:15,417 --> 00:59:20,417
but it's like, I say that you'd start up a new chain

567
00:59:20,696 --> 00:59:22,417
when the old one fills up.

568
00:59:22,417 --> 00:59:23,976
So you start a bunch of chains,

569
00:59:23,976 --> 00:59:27,417
and it's like, they started like eight megabytes,

570
00:59:27,417 --> 00:59:30,296
and then they grow geometrically to 800 megabytes

571
00:59:30,296 --> 00:59:33,116
over like 10 years, but you just start with one.

572
00:59:34,016 --> 00:59:36,976
And then when that one fills up, you make the second one.

573
00:59:37,696 --> 00:59:38,777
The second one starts at eight,

574
00:59:38,777 --> 00:59:40,817
or it could start at the same, you know, whatever,

575
00:59:40,817 --> 00:59:42,737
but you start them, you have eights,

576
00:59:42,737 --> 00:59:43,577
and so eight's growing,

577
00:59:43,577 --> 00:59:45,497
and maybe by the time eight is geometrically grown

578
00:59:45,497 --> 00:59:49,256
to like 80, you find that it's full,

579
00:59:49,256 --> 00:59:50,417
and you start the next one.

580
00:59:50,417 --> 00:59:51,497
So now you have 88.

581
00:59:52,536 --> 00:59:57,536
And the new people who are feeling priced out

582
00:59:57,737 --> 01:00:01,377
and the most rebellious, they'll splinter off.

583
01:00:01,377 --> 01:00:04,217
And then when that one fills up, you start another eight.

584
01:00:04,217 --> 01:00:07,616
And you do this until you have like maybe like nine or 10.

585
01:00:07,616 --> 01:00:09,616
That, those would have,

586
01:00:09,616 --> 01:00:12,616
the full node costs would still be very cheap.

587
01:00:12,616 --> 01:00:17,616
And that would go up to like the entire world's payment

588
01:00:18,256 --> 01:00:19,497
volume eventually.

589
01:00:20,377 --> 01:00:22,417
But you see, people wouldn't join.

590
01:00:22,417 --> 01:00:27,096
People won't, you know, there'll be eight billion people

591
01:00:27,096 --> 01:00:28,657
won't join tomorrow.

592
01:00:28,657 --> 01:00:30,577
But you have to plan, it's a paradox.

593
01:00:30,577 --> 01:00:32,577
You have to plan on them joining eventually,

594
01:00:32,577 --> 01:00:34,857
or even, you have to plan on like,

595
01:00:34,857 --> 01:00:37,017
what would we do if they did join tomorrow?

596
01:00:37,017 --> 01:00:39,096
They have to have like a plan for that.

597
01:00:39,096 --> 01:00:44,096
And at the same time, you don't want to just say like,

598
01:00:48,256 --> 01:00:52,096
build it as if they were, you know,

599
01:00:52,096 --> 01:00:55,456
going to join tomorrow, because that's not likely.

600
01:00:57,056 --> 01:00:58,896
So, but even that would not be,

601
01:00:58,896 --> 01:00:59,737
that would not be very much.

602
01:00:59,737 --> 01:01:01,256
And the way it would work is you have the large block

603
01:01:01,256 --> 01:01:03,017
payment sidechain that everyone would use.

604
01:01:03,017 --> 01:01:06,857
And then eventually probably you'd see like the first split

605
01:01:06,857 --> 01:01:08,816
and we don't really know what it would be.

606
01:01:08,816 --> 01:01:11,336
Cause it depends on who has adopted the thing,

607
01:01:12,336 --> 01:01:14,417
but probably at some point there would be like a,

608
01:01:14,417 --> 01:01:17,017
you know, like a, like a, an Asia split,

609
01:01:17,017 --> 01:01:18,737
or like even like a Southeast Asia

610
01:01:19,857 --> 01:01:22,017
that would probably like split off at some point.

611
01:01:22,017 --> 01:01:25,336
There'd be like whatever, India, Japan, China, Korea,

612
01:01:26,777 --> 01:01:30,017
that would like split off probably.

613
01:01:30,056 --> 01:01:32,536
There'd be like Anglosphere, West and East.

614
01:01:32,536 --> 01:01:34,976
And then probably there'd be like a America,

615
01:01:34,976 --> 01:01:36,857
Europe split at some point.

616
01:01:36,857 --> 01:01:40,256
And then there's probably be like a rest of world split,

617
01:01:40,256 --> 01:01:44,336
you know, which would be like just these random other

618
01:01:44,336 --> 01:01:48,577
places, but I don't think we can really predict,

619
01:01:48,577 --> 01:01:50,017
but anyway, I did all that math.

620
01:01:50,017 --> 01:01:52,417
That is not, it's not so bad.

621
01:01:52,417 --> 01:01:55,616
Just the, the, the envelope math is not,

622
01:01:55,616 --> 01:02:00,617
it's not that torturous.

623
01:02:00,897 --> 01:02:04,017
And one cool thing about the sidechain is,

624
01:02:04,017 --> 01:02:05,897
this may be the case that like every L2

625
01:02:05,897 --> 01:02:07,696
just ends up converging on the same design,

626
01:02:07,696 --> 01:02:09,656
just like from different directions,

627
01:02:09,656 --> 01:02:13,337
because the, the sidechain L2,

628
01:02:13,337 --> 01:02:14,656
since it's already screwed,

629
01:02:14,656 --> 01:02:19,017
if you have like six months of like 51% attack,

630
01:02:19,017 --> 01:02:21,337
you can just have like a UTXO step commitment

631
01:02:21,337 --> 01:02:25,936
and throw away any data that is older than six months.

632
01:02:25,936 --> 01:02:29,936
So even like the blockchain can even like,

633
01:02:29,936 --> 01:02:32,297
it's theoretically shrink or just like,

634
01:02:32,297 --> 01:02:34,376
it kind of hits some like equilibrium size

635
01:02:36,096 --> 01:02:38,297
of just whatever the turnover is.

636
01:02:38,297 --> 01:02:40,536
And, but even if you don't assume that,

637
01:02:40,536 --> 01:02:42,857
you can still have these like one gigabyte nodes

638
01:02:42,857 --> 01:02:47,096
that are like, it's like 2,500 upfront.

639
01:02:47,096 --> 01:02:50,936
And then like, it was like 400 a month dollars.

640
01:02:51,577 --> 01:02:53,417
So that's a lot, but that's not like,

641
01:02:54,337 --> 01:02:55,696
that would be too much for L1.

642
01:02:55,696 --> 01:02:56,536
And that would be a mistake.

643
01:02:56,536 --> 01:02:58,936
And it makes no sense because the,

644
01:02:58,936 --> 01:03:01,057
the large blockers back in the scaling war,

645
01:03:01,057 --> 01:03:03,457
they had no kind of explanation for like what the numbers

646
01:03:03,457 --> 01:03:05,137
would, what the final number would be,

647
01:03:05,137 --> 01:03:06,297
or would it be unlimited?

648
01:03:06,297 --> 01:03:08,776
Or why is the number what it is?

649
01:03:08,776 --> 01:03:11,137
They didn't have any of that figured out.

650
01:03:11,137 --> 01:03:13,417
As a result, their position made no sense.

651
01:03:13,417 --> 01:03:16,017
And it was, you know, no offense to large blockers,

652
01:03:16,017 --> 01:03:19,617
but that was why, that was a big part of why they lost,

653
01:03:19,617 --> 01:03:21,256
I think it's because they really,

654
01:03:21,256 --> 01:03:23,096
they really didn't object on principle.

655
01:03:23,096 --> 01:03:26,577
They just said the line should be drawn at an eight

656
01:03:26,577 --> 01:03:27,496
instead of at one.

657
01:03:27,496 --> 01:03:30,976
And any reasonable person would be thinking,

658
01:03:30,976 --> 01:03:34,216
even on a, excuse me, even on like a subconscious level,

659
01:03:34,216 --> 01:03:38,096
they would be thinking like, why eight and not nine

660
01:03:38,096 --> 01:03:41,816
or 30 or two or four and a half, you know,

661
01:03:41,816 --> 01:03:42,816
they'd just be like.

662
01:03:44,417 --> 01:03:47,137
So most of the large blockers at the time,

663
01:03:47,137 --> 01:03:50,417
they did not favor getting rid of the block size limit

664
01:03:50,417 --> 01:03:51,256
completely.

665
01:03:52,216 --> 01:03:54,417
It would have probably made much more logical sense

666
01:03:54,417 --> 01:03:56,496
and been much more persuasive if they did say that,

667
01:03:56,496 --> 01:03:59,057
but none of them, none of them said that.

668
01:03:59,057 --> 01:04:00,337
Well, some, maybe a few of them did,

669
01:04:00,337 --> 01:04:02,577
but Gavin Andresen, for example, did not.

670
01:04:02,577 --> 01:04:04,936
He said, and in fact, he said explicitly,

671
01:04:06,337 --> 01:04:09,857
quote, no one is advocating for an unlimited block size,

672
01:04:09,857 --> 01:04:10,696
end quote.

673
01:04:10,696 --> 01:04:13,457
So when he said that, I thought, oh, that's interesting.

674
01:04:13,457 --> 01:04:14,816
But see, then they are admitting

675
01:04:14,816 --> 01:04:16,337
that some blocks are too large.

676
01:04:16,337 --> 01:04:18,096
So the reason why this is better, of course,

677
01:04:18,096 --> 01:04:19,417
is that you have a bunch of things

678
01:04:19,417 --> 01:04:21,656
that each have a block size limit,

679
01:04:21,656 --> 01:04:23,376
and then the block size limit will grow

680
01:04:23,376 --> 01:04:26,737
and it will be really big, but it will hit some other thing.

681
01:04:26,737 --> 01:04:28,177
And then it will just,

682
01:04:28,177 --> 01:04:29,696
you have like a reason behind the numbers.

683
01:04:29,696 --> 01:04:32,376
The numbers are like the worldwide scale

684
01:04:32,376 --> 01:04:33,816
binned into a bunch of bins.

685
01:04:34,776 --> 01:04:36,057
And so, yeah, you could do all that.

686
01:04:36,057 --> 01:04:36,897
And then if you did that,

687
01:04:36,897 --> 01:04:38,936
then they wouldn't necessarily need to be channels,

688
01:04:38,936 --> 01:04:42,216
although nothing would stop them from being channels.

689
01:04:42,216 --> 01:04:43,376
They could be channels.

690
01:04:44,376 --> 01:04:46,376
Probably they would.

691
01:04:46,376 --> 01:04:49,177
I mean, see, you call them channels,

692
01:04:49,177 --> 01:04:54,177
but it's weird that the define,

693
01:04:56,376 --> 01:04:58,577
because you say we need to do cross-chain,

694
01:05:01,976 --> 01:05:05,897
but like, I would again think like

695
01:05:05,897 --> 01:05:08,216
most of the payments will be within chain,

696
01:05:08,216 --> 01:05:10,816
and then even it'll be rare to cross-chains.

697
01:05:10,816 --> 01:05:11,816
And then when you do,

698
01:05:11,857 --> 01:05:14,457
you would call that like a cross-chain atomic swap.

699
01:05:14,457 --> 01:05:16,337
I wouldn't really call that a channel.

700
01:05:16,337 --> 01:05:19,577
Because to me, the channel is something where you really,

701
01:05:19,577 --> 01:05:20,897
it's like the thing with the beads

702
01:05:20,897 --> 01:05:22,177
and you're really using it a lot.

703
01:05:22,177 --> 01:05:23,857
You're updating it frequently.

704
01:05:23,857 --> 01:05:26,496
You open it once in a big ceremony

705
01:05:26,496 --> 01:05:28,096
and then you update it frequently

706
01:05:28,096 --> 01:05:31,337
in the privacy of your own home many times.

707
01:05:31,337 --> 01:05:33,017
And then you close it or roll it over

708
01:05:33,017 --> 01:05:34,696
in like a big ceremony.

709
01:05:34,696 --> 01:05:36,536
Well, the good thing with channels

710
01:05:36,536 --> 01:05:38,897
is like with using the Lightning Network

711
01:05:38,897 --> 01:05:40,776
for these atomic swaps.

712
01:05:40,776 --> 01:05:43,177
Of course, it's just atomic swaps at the end of the day.

713
01:05:43,177 --> 01:05:45,177
And you could do more simple atomic swaps

714
01:05:45,177 --> 01:05:48,536
by just swapping directly between chain A and chain B.

715
01:05:48,536 --> 01:05:53,536
But like, of course it contradicts what you just said

716
01:05:54,177 --> 01:05:57,457
because you just said people will gravitate

717
01:05:57,457 --> 01:06:01,177
towards the sidechain where they have to swap the least.

718
01:06:02,177 --> 01:06:03,496
And that makes sense, of course.

719
01:06:03,496 --> 01:06:05,936
But if you model it just like randomly and say,

720
01:06:05,936 --> 01:06:08,776
okay, we have 100 chains

721
01:06:08,776 --> 01:06:11,816
and payments happen randomly across any chain,

722
01:06:11,816 --> 01:06:13,536
then there's a high probability

723
01:06:13,536 --> 01:06:15,456
that you will not pay in your chain.

724
01:06:15,456 --> 01:06:18,216
And it's also hard to predict

725
01:06:18,216 --> 01:06:21,096
in which chain you will pay into.

726
01:06:21,096 --> 01:06:23,417
And you can solve that very elegantly

727
01:06:23,417 --> 01:06:26,417
by just everybody having a channel with the main chain

728
01:06:28,057 --> 01:06:31,377
or with the main chain Lightning Network.

729
01:06:31,377 --> 01:06:33,857
And from there, you could easily connect

730
01:06:33,857 --> 01:06:35,697
into every other.

731
01:06:36,697 --> 01:06:37,857
What did you say?

732
01:06:37,857 --> 01:06:40,136
Everyone having a channel on L1?

733
01:06:40,136 --> 01:06:41,776
Every sidechain.

734
01:06:41,776 --> 01:06:44,336
Every sidechain would have some,

735
01:06:44,336 --> 01:06:46,297
at least one liquidity provider

736
01:06:46,297 --> 01:06:49,776
who has a channel into the main Lightning Network.

737
01:06:50,776 --> 01:06:52,417
Well, yeah.

738
01:06:52,417 --> 01:06:55,257
Well, that's every sidechain.

739
01:06:55,257 --> 01:06:59,216
Well, every user of every L2 is also a user of every L1.

740
01:06:59,216 --> 01:07:02,336
Maybe they don't have any coins on L1.

741
01:07:02,336 --> 01:07:04,177
I wonder about if,

742
01:07:05,057 --> 01:07:06,297
let me think about,

743
01:07:08,057 --> 01:07:09,896
so you're saying every sidechain.

744
01:07:09,896 --> 01:07:12,737
See, because like in my guess about how it would work

745
01:07:12,737 --> 01:07:14,617
is there's like 10,

746
01:07:14,617 --> 01:07:16,617
there's like a bunch of special purpose sidechains

747
01:07:16,617 --> 01:07:17,697
that are like for whatever,

748
01:07:17,697 --> 01:07:19,336
for like, there's like Namecoin

749
01:07:19,336 --> 01:07:20,576
and there's like,

750
01:07:20,576 --> 01:07:22,096
then there's like some for payments

751
01:07:22,096 --> 01:07:24,576
and then there's like some for like weird other stuff,

752
01:07:25,937 --> 01:07:27,016
weird experiments.

753
01:07:27,016 --> 01:07:29,976
And so you have the 10

754
01:07:30,976 --> 01:07:33,737
and then each of the 10 is like,

755
01:07:34,576 --> 01:07:35,737
you're just saying something like,

756
01:07:35,737 --> 01:07:37,656
I mean, if all you're saying is one person

757
01:07:37,656 --> 01:07:39,257
at least of each of the 10

758
01:07:39,257 --> 01:07:41,377
also has a Lightning channel on L1,

759
01:07:41,377 --> 01:07:43,417
then that is a very weak claim.

760
01:07:43,417 --> 01:07:45,937
So that's almost certainly going to be the case.

761
01:07:49,216 --> 01:07:50,377
Yeah, there will be lots of people

762
01:07:50,377 --> 01:07:53,497
who have coins on both the L1 and each L2.

763
01:07:54,417 --> 01:07:56,937
Like someone who's on the L2,

764
01:07:56,937 --> 01:07:58,177
they'll have some coins on L1

765
01:07:58,576 --> 01:08:01,536
and then they will be able to swap them.

766
01:08:01,536 --> 01:08:03,776
I guess like to put it more clearly,

767
01:08:03,776 --> 01:08:05,896
like in the naive setting,

768
01:08:05,896 --> 01:08:09,896
you would have to have quadratically many channels,

769
01:08:09,896 --> 01:08:13,216
like from every sidechain into every other sidechain,

770
01:08:14,576 --> 01:08:18,336
if you would not be able to predict where you wanna pay.

771
01:08:18,336 --> 01:08:21,697
And you can get around that

772
01:08:21,697 --> 01:08:23,497
by just centralizing

773
01:08:23,497 --> 01:08:27,057
around the main chain Lightning network.

774
01:08:27,817 --> 01:08:29,617
Yeah, they're just ON only.

775
01:08:30,617 --> 01:08:33,576
Each person who joins opens a channel,

776
01:08:34,497 --> 01:08:38,057
they deposit to the L2 or they get coins on the L2

777
01:08:38,057 --> 01:08:41,096
and then maybe someone gives them,

778
01:08:41,096 --> 01:08:42,177
what they would do is they would,

779
01:08:42,177 --> 01:08:44,857
someone would give them channel L2 coins,

780
01:08:44,857 --> 01:08:46,456
they would never touch L1,

781
01:08:46,456 --> 01:08:47,776
they get the L2 coins

782
01:08:47,776 --> 01:08:52,257
and then they would open a channel on L2

783
01:08:52,257 --> 01:08:56,136
with someone, they would open a channel to someone on L2

784
01:08:56,177 --> 01:08:59,697
but that would be the same individual, the same human.

785
01:08:59,697 --> 01:09:02,377
So like I would open a channel with Vlad

786
01:09:02,377 --> 01:09:04,896
or let's say, I don't know how to make this example,

787
01:09:04,896 --> 01:09:06,216
like make a lot of more sense.

788
01:09:06,216 --> 01:09:10,377
Let's say like Roger Veer gives someone L2 coins,

789
01:09:10,377 --> 01:09:15,377
he gives L2 coins to, I don't know, who, yes.

790
01:09:16,697 --> 01:09:18,057
I think, yeah,

791
01:09:18,057 --> 01:09:19,257
cause the Lightning network, you can't,

792
01:09:19,257 --> 01:09:20,497
it doesn't make sense to,

793
01:09:20,497 --> 01:09:23,216
you have to give them the L1 coins weirdly.

794
01:09:24,096 --> 01:09:28,497
He, so Roger gives Moon Settler's friend

795
01:09:28,497 --> 01:09:31,136
who is new to Bitcoin, he's just been orange pilled.

796
01:09:32,096 --> 01:09:34,737
He sat on the airplane next to Roger Veer,

797
01:09:34,737 --> 01:09:38,497
Roger Veer gives him the L, the coins on L2.

798
01:09:38,497 --> 01:09:41,177
He opens L2 Lightning channels,

799
01:09:41,177 --> 01:09:42,896
this would be like L3 or whatever.

800
01:09:43,817 --> 01:09:47,016
He opens the L2 channel with,

801
01:09:48,576 --> 01:09:52,096
let's call him Brian Armstrong who runs Coinbase.

802
01:09:52,096 --> 01:09:55,976
So he has a channel for L2 coins moving back and forth,

803
01:09:55,976 --> 01:09:58,617
but Brian Armstrong owns L1 coins.

804
01:09:58,617 --> 01:10:01,057
So he can like, he can,

805
01:10:01,057 --> 01:10:03,937
you could pay on L2 and have Brian Armstrong either

806
01:10:03,937 --> 01:10:08,136
like give you one payment on L1 if you want it

807
01:10:08,136 --> 01:10:10,656
or open an L1 channel with the,

808
01:10:10,656 --> 01:10:15,257
like that has your coins in it or something then.

809
01:10:15,257 --> 01:10:18,536
But see, you really never want to be able to,

810
01:10:18,536 --> 01:10:19,377
it's all about like,

811
01:10:19,417 --> 01:10:22,417
you gotta like avoid touching L1 as much as possible

812
01:10:22,417 --> 01:10:23,377
because the more,

813
01:10:23,377 --> 01:10:26,297
because 8 billion people of course cannot touch L1.

814
01:10:26,297 --> 01:10:27,136
So it's like-

815
01:10:27,136 --> 01:10:30,737
But I'm saying just one liquidity provider

816
01:10:30,737 --> 01:10:33,536
per sidechain would have to have a channel in L1.

817
01:10:35,776 --> 01:10:39,536
And all sidechain users would then interact with-

818
01:10:39,536 --> 01:10:41,016
But who's the channel?

819
01:10:41,016 --> 01:10:44,096
Like who is the,

820
01:10:44,096 --> 01:10:47,576
who else is in the channel in L1?

821
01:10:48,576 --> 01:10:51,336
It's like Brian Armstrong has the channel on L1,

822
01:10:51,336 --> 01:10:52,536
but with who?

823
01:10:52,536 --> 01:10:55,896
Because he's Coinbase or whatever, that's what this is.

824
01:10:55,896 --> 01:10:58,136
Oh, they're just connected with like

825
01:10:58,136 --> 01:11:00,136
the main chain Lightning Network.

826
01:11:00,136 --> 01:11:04,016
And then when somebody wants to make a payment,

827
01:11:04,016 --> 01:11:07,536
they have to open a sidechain channel

828
01:11:07,536 --> 01:11:10,177
with that party inside the sidechain.

829
01:11:10,177 --> 01:11:11,617
And this way they-

830
01:11:11,617 --> 01:11:13,257
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

831
01:11:13,257 --> 01:11:15,737
Yeah, that's kind of what I mean is that,

832
01:11:15,776 --> 01:11:18,776
so you have a channel with Brian Armstrong.

833
01:11:18,776 --> 01:11:23,697
Brian Armstrong has a channel with LSPs.

834
01:11:23,697 --> 01:11:24,617
Yeah, I get what you're saying.

835
01:11:24,617 --> 01:11:25,976
Yeah, no, I agree, yeah.

836
01:11:25,976 --> 01:11:27,937
So he, Brian Armstrong will have,

837
01:11:27,937 --> 01:11:29,016
there's a hundred sidechains.

838
01:11:29,016 --> 01:11:31,057
Brian Armstrong has a hundred channels,

839
01:11:31,057 --> 01:11:33,656
each with whales.

840
01:11:33,656 --> 01:11:36,737
He has an L1 channel with whales, the L2 whales.

841
01:11:38,216 --> 01:11:42,136
You connect to the L2 whale on your Lightning Network,

842
01:11:42,136 --> 01:11:43,456
then you can pay anyone else

843
01:11:43,456 --> 01:11:45,136
because it goes through Brian

844
01:11:45,536 --> 01:11:46,377
and then it goes through the other whale.

845
01:11:46,377 --> 01:11:47,817
Exactly.

846
01:11:47,817 --> 01:11:52,016
And we can use Lightning as like the simple API

847
01:11:52,016 --> 01:11:55,817
that everybody connects to pay each other.

848
01:11:58,896 --> 01:12:00,857
Well, yeah, I guess, maybe.

849
01:12:02,656 --> 01:12:03,656
Because you see-

850
01:12:03,656 --> 01:12:04,497
I don't know.

851
01:12:04,497 --> 01:12:06,177
You have to have the channel open.

852
01:12:06,177 --> 01:12:07,857
I don't want to claim that I would know stuff,

853
01:12:07,857 --> 01:12:09,896
but it's kind of like-

854
01:12:09,896 --> 01:12:11,057
I think it's just like,

855
01:12:11,057 --> 01:12:13,896
it's presuming that a channel has already been opened

856
01:12:13,896 --> 01:12:16,776
with the person when you could just write the transaction.

857
01:12:16,776 --> 01:12:20,536
Like just doing the sidechain on-chain transaction

858
01:12:20,536 --> 01:12:23,497
has numerous benefits.

859
01:12:23,497 --> 01:12:24,896
Anyway, we got Mood Saddler up here.

860
01:12:24,896 --> 01:12:26,456
Hello, Mood Saddler, how are you?

861
01:12:26,456 --> 01:12:27,297
Hello, guys.

862
01:12:27,297 --> 01:12:28,136
Happy Friday.

863
01:12:28,136 --> 01:12:28,976
Happy Friday.

864
01:12:28,976 --> 01:12:30,776
So I just wanted to say that the easiest way

865
01:12:30,776 --> 01:12:32,377
to do cross-chain Lightning

866
01:12:32,377 --> 01:12:35,817
is the bridging entities will just have a node

867
01:12:35,817 --> 01:12:39,016
on both the sidechain and mainchain,

868
01:12:39,016 --> 01:12:42,297
and they can just create a virtual uncommitted channel

869
01:12:42,297 --> 01:12:43,817
between their nodes,

870
01:12:43,817 --> 01:12:45,177
because that's fully trust-based,

871
01:12:45,177 --> 01:12:47,257
but both of them are their nodes.

872
01:12:47,257 --> 01:12:49,697
And then they can just easily use something

873
01:12:49,697 --> 01:12:51,377
like trampoline routing or whatever

874
01:12:51,377 --> 01:12:54,937
to route across networks.

875
01:12:54,937 --> 01:12:57,377
I think it actually can be done with Lightning

876
01:12:57,377 --> 01:12:59,737
just as it exists, basically.

877
01:13:01,336 --> 01:13:04,497
Ah, I think it makes sense, actually, Robin.

878
01:13:04,497 --> 01:13:05,776
I think if I understand him,

879
01:13:05,776 --> 01:13:08,697
he's saying Brian Armstrong, a fictional person,

880
01:13:08,697 --> 01:13:10,857
he just has a bunch of-

881
01:13:10,857 --> 01:13:12,377
He just happens to have,

882
01:13:12,377 --> 01:13:14,937
he is a whale on multiple networks,

883
01:13:14,937 --> 01:13:16,057
and he just has a lot of chain,

884
01:13:16,057 --> 01:13:19,216
even though he has a virtual channel with himself,

885
01:13:19,216 --> 01:13:22,976
basically, is sort of what I was hearing there.

886
01:13:22,976 --> 01:13:24,576
So he just has,

887
01:13:24,576 --> 01:13:26,697
he's on all the different Lightning networks,

888
01:13:26,697 --> 01:13:30,297
and so he's kind of like a bank to some extent.

889
01:13:30,297 --> 01:13:34,057
But, and then in that case, there is no HTLC, by the way.

890
01:13:34,057 --> 01:13:37,096
This is only bi-directional payment channels.

891
01:13:37,096 --> 01:13:39,377
So I'm getting my revenge on the Lightning network.

892
01:13:39,377 --> 01:13:42,257
That Brian Armstrong doesn't have to have channels

893
01:13:42,257 --> 01:13:45,216
in like sidechain A and sidechain B.

894
01:13:45,216 --> 01:13:48,896
Like it is, we just have, I don't know,

895
01:13:48,896 --> 01:13:52,656
let's say Roger Ver and Brian Armstrong,

896
01:13:52,656 --> 01:13:56,976
and Brian Armstrong, he has a channel into sidechain B,

897
01:13:56,976 --> 01:14:01,896
and Roger Ver, he has a channel into sidechain A,

898
01:14:01,896 --> 01:14:03,497
and both of them are connected

899
01:14:03,497 --> 01:14:05,057
with the main chain Lightning network,

900
01:14:05,057 --> 01:14:07,377
and that's why they can pay each other,

901
01:14:07,417 --> 01:14:09,297
and that's why I can route over them.

902
01:14:11,096 --> 01:14:13,377
So I wanted to say you have HTLCs.

903
01:14:13,377 --> 01:14:14,896
It just, it doesn't make sense

904
01:14:14,896 --> 01:14:17,697
to enforce those against yourself.

905
01:14:17,697 --> 01:14:19,257
So on the virtual channel,

906
01:14:19,257 --> 01:14:21,896
there is no sense in enforcing HTLCs,

907
01:14:21,896 --> 01:14:24,336
but they can still kind of like exist,

908
01:14:24,336 --> 01:14:27,257
and they certainly exist on the sidechain,

909
01:14:27,257 --> 01:14:28,937
but you already have a network.

910
01:14:28,937 --> 01:14:31,177
You don't actually have to like fully centralize.

911
01:14:31,177 --> 01:14:34,536
You can also have routing happening on the sidechain,

912
01:14:34,536 --> 01:14:37,257
and you can also have further routing

913
01:14:38,136 --> 01:14:40,257
happening on the main chain Lightning network.

914
01:14:41,177 --> 01:14:43,417
Routing can happen in the main chain Lightning network,

915
01:14:43,417 --> 01:14:46,057
and that's why you don't need Roger Ver

916
01:14:46,057 --> 01:14:47,856
or like Brian Armstrong to have a channel

917
01:14:47,856 --> 01:14:49,136
in every sidechain.

918
01:14:49,136 --> 01:14:51,616
It's, he can already be helpful

919
01:14:51,616 --> 01:14:54,177
if he just has a channel in one sidechain

920
01:14:54,177 --> 01:14:56,177
and in the main chain.

921
01:14:56,177 --> 01:14:58,577
Yeah, now ideally, you wouldn't have

922
01:14:58,577 --> 01:15:01,016
just like a single bridge

923
01:15:01,016 --> 01:15:03,297
between the sidechain and main chain.

924
01:15:03,297 --> 01:15:06,496
Ideally, you would have competing bridges,

925
01:15:06,496 --> 01:15:10,016
because otherwise, they said whatever fee they want

926
01:15:10,016 --> 01:15:11,937
for routing, and that's not cool,

927
01:15:11,937 --> 01:15:14,217
but you can have very few.

928
01:15:14,217 --> 01:15:16,256
Everybody can join the market, so.

929
01:15:16,256 --> 01:15:20,496
Yeah, you can have two, three bridges maybe per sidechain,

930
01:15:20,496 --> 01:15:22,937
and that's still like a very low number.

931
01:15:22,937 --> 01:15:27,376
Even if main chain Lightning becomes very centralized

932
01:15:27,376 --> 01:15:29,697
for the high liquidity routing,

933
01:15:29,697 --> 01:15:33,536
even then, this can be like a fairly decentralized system

934
01:15:33,536 --> 01:15:34,937
where you have competition.

935
01:15:35,856 --> 01:15:36,697
Yeah.

936
01:15:41,217 --> 01:15:45,937
Okay, so Moon, what's up with the week?

937
01:15:45,937 --> 01:15:47,977
How's everything going?

938
01:15:47,977 --> 01:15:52,977
You know, how's that Bitcoin despair setting in?

939
01:15:57,496 --> 01:16:00,297
Yeah, I'm a tiny bit over it.

940
01:16:00,297 --> 01:16:04,177
The problem is that people see so stupid things on Twitter,

941
01:16:04,177 --> 01:16:07,656
and it kind of just depresses me

942
01:16:07,656 --> 01:16:10,297
when I see these insufferable takes

943
01:16:10,297 --> 01:16:14,616
like removing the scripting capability of Bitcoin.

944
01:16:14,616 --> 01:16:18,297
I saw from Terence, I think he wants to reduce

945
01:16:18,297 --> 01:16:20,297
the number of opcodes to one

946
01:16:20,297 --> 01:16:22,536
because he thinks there are too many.

947
01:16:22,536 --> 01:16:25,896
So stuff like that really depressed me,

948
01:16:25,896 --> 01:16:28,217
but I got over it.

949
01:16:28,217 --> 01:16:31,817
I managed to actually do the tutorial

950
01:16:32,697 --> 01:16:37,697
that Katsu created for CTV on the Inquisition signal,

951
01:16:39,496 --> 01:16:41,776
but I had some trouble

952
01:16:41,776 --> 01:16:44,177
with getting the transaction propagated.

953
01:16:44,177 --> 01:16:47,776
I had to connect to AGS node directly

954
01:16:47,776 --> 01:16:50,457
because the fucking mempool filters

955
01:16:50,457 --> 01:16:51,937
are actually getting your way

956
01:16:51,937 --> 01:16:54,057
if you want to do cool stuff with Bitcoin.

957
01:16:55,136 --> 01:16:57,097
But overall, I'm fine now.

958
01:16:58,057 --> 01:17:03,057
Yeah, a lot of dumb things being said on Twitter, of course.

959
01:17:04,016 --> 01:17:09,016
And yeah, even like a lot of the fee control stuff,

960
01:17:09,776 --> 01:17:11,697
like to stop people from paying a fee

961
01:17:11,697 --> 01:17:13,457
that is too high or too low.

962
01:17:14,337 --> 01:17:17,977
I always crash into that when I'm like testing things

963
01:17:17,977 --> 01:17:22,337
because they also apply on like red test mode

964
01:17:22,337 --> 01:17:24,337
and all this other stuff.

965
01:17:24,337 --> 01:17:25,697
It's kind of very annoying.

966
01:17:27,977 --> 01:17:29,337
But what can you do?

967
01:17:30,896 --> 01:17:35,217
So yeah, I don't know what is with Terence now.

968
01:17:35,217 --> 01:17:36,057
I don't know.

969
01:17:36,057 --> 01:17:38,417
He seemed like two years ago,

970
01:17:38,417 --> 01:17:41,217
he seemed kind of like a smarter guy,

971
01:17:41,217 --> 01:17:42,217
but now I don't know.

972
01:17:42,593 --> 01:17:46,353
Kind of like what is what is the deal is now.

973
01:17:52,993 --> 01:17:54,193
Now we have big code.

974
01:17:55,873 --> 01:17:58,713
Hello, what's up, Paul?

975
01:18:00,312 --> 01:18:03,152
How are you? I'm good.

976
01:18:06,713 --> 01:18:12,472
I want to say about something about this, what you're talking about, the channels and VMs.

977
01:18:13,593 --> 01:18:29,953
I think that like we have the golden feature with the Bitcoin node that only you figure out how to use as a L2 and that's a great thing.

978
01:18:30,712 --> 01:18:37,833
Everybody else tried to implement VMs, which, you know, like.

979
01:18:39,633 --> 01:18:41,113
How to say like it's.

980
01:18:43,032 --> 01:18:48,792
It's destroying the the the nature of the the whole infrastructure.

981
01:18:49,393 --> 01:18:53,432
VMs are not peer to peer, they are not decentralized.

982
01:18:54,432 --> 01:19:00,353
They are related to APIs, which is very bad technology, APIs, the.

983
01:19:01,512 --> 01:19:05,192
I mean, the technology is very bad, so.

984
01:19:06,552 --> 01:19:08,393
Like the.

985
01:19:10,313 --> 01:19:22,232
Related to to to connection, the RPCs are much better than than APIs because APIs are created to to have a demand of data and

986
01:19:23,192 --> 01:19:33,913
and that's a big issue where RPCs are specific, you know, dedicated for for one function or connection.

987
01:19:34,792 --> 01:19:45,313
And the other thing, I don't think that my drivechain will need any channels or lightning if there is a sidechain like lightning.

988
01:19:45,313 --> 01:19:47,713
Yeah, fine. But why do.

989
01:19:48,593 --> 01:20:03,473
Anybody will need channel because, you know, the sidechains are on drivechain, so you have a, you know, seamless communication between everything, so I don't see that there is.

990
01:20:04,833 --> 01:20:11,473
Yeah, I think if there were channels, they would have to have like very, very, very automated, like.

991
01:20:12,432 --> 01:20:18,753
Open and close, most people will probably not have any idea how to, like, decide who to open a channel with.

992
01:20:19,753 --> 01:20:22,473
So if that were very, very, very automated.

993
01:20:23,072 --> 01:20:37,473
You can have something work, something like Moon Wallet working on a sidechain without a problem if it has like a sub Satoshi feed rate, because, you know, it's a big block sidechain and sidechains are not really scarce real estate anyhow, because you can just make another one.

994
01:20:38,232 --> 01:20:45,473
So in that sense, I think it might be a lot simpler experience than what people are suffering with on main chain.

995
01:20:46,352 --> 01:21:05,712
It's just that the actual infrastructure that has to exist as lightning nodes, if you have some routing, if you have various LSPs present on a sidechain, then routing between each other and the bridges is where you would have like real lightning infrastructure and probably the wallets would not even be lightning wallets.

996
01:21:05,792 --> 01:21:08,193
They would just be able to pay HTSs.

997
01:21:09,473 --> 01:21:15,632
Yeah, but also you don't need the lightning infrastructure, because why do you need more complexity?

998
01:21:15,792 --> 01:21:21,593
I mean, because you want to just you want to just pay an invoice from anywhere on the world.

999
01:21:21,833 --> 01:21:26,232
Yeah, but I will be the Bitcoin channel.

1000
01:21:26,232 --> 01:21:28,193
I don't need to use the lightning channel.

1001
01:21:28,712 --> 01:21:35,072
No, because someone is on sidechain C and you are on sidechain E and you want to pay them.

1002
01:21:35,113 --> 01:21:36,632
You can't pay them directly.

1003
01:21:36,753 --> 01:21:49,072
Otherwise, but but I can I can use a Bitcoin JS Bitcoin channel because lightning coming is it lightning is not invented.

1004
01:21:49,072 --> 01:21:55,352
Lightning is just a wrapped up marketing scheme from lightning is come on.

1005
01:21:55,712 --> 01:21:56,992
Lightning is a Bitcoin channel.

1006
01:21:57,432 --> 01:21:58,352
What are you talking about?

1007
01:21:58,352 --> 01:21:59,872
Yeah, is Bitcoin channel.

1008
01:21:59,872 --> 01:22:05,832
I want to say that lightning is manipulated and is not invented.

1009
01:22:05,913 --> 01:22:09,633
The Bitcoin channel exists in since Satoshi time.

1010
01:22:10,872 --> 01:22:20,913
And that's I mean, you can I use I use for for my needs and you know, like Bitcoin channel, you can anybody can create.

1011
01:22:20,913 --> 01:22:24,272
So when you use Bitcoin channel, you use the note.

1012
01:22:24,513 --> 01:22:26,552
If it's on drivechain, you use the drivechain.

1013
01:22:26,552 --> 01:22:29,753
No, you don't need a lightning infrastructure at all.

1014
01:22:29,872 --> 01:22:31,593
Hey, guys, I have to leave now.

1015
01:22:31,593 --> 01:22:32,832
I have another appointment.

1016
01:22:32,832 --> 01:22:35,033
Great talking to you and see you next time.

1017
01:22:37,353 --> 01:22:38,872
Cool. See you later, Robert.

1018
01:22:40,793 --> 01:22:41,233
See you.

1019
01:22:46,193 --> 01:22:56,633
Hmm, yes, it would have been I didn't quite understand what you meant a bit code when you said VM is like an API.

1020
01:22:56,633 --> 01:22:58,233
I didn't totally understand that part.

1021
01:22:58,913 --> 01:23:01,952
But I kind of agree with you that I don't really see why there would be.

1022
01:23:02,872 --> 01:23:12,473
I think a lot of this channel stuff will just be kind of just dropped at some point, if I'm right, which, of course, is not guaranteed.

1023
01:23:12,473 --> 01:23:14,392
But no, you're right.

1024
01:23:14,392 --> 01:23:17,473
You're right. I mean, like as.

1025
01:23:19,193 --> 01:23:26,353
I understand the drivechain, if you have a drivechain node and then you have a sidechains, why do you need the channel?

1026
01:23:26,753 --> 01:23:29,952
Because the sidechains communicate with drivechain.

1027
01:23:29,952 --> 01:23:35,913
So it's a seamless, you know, it just need to be developed some kind of atomic swap.

1028
01:23:35,913 --> 01:23:38,552
And, you know, that's it.

1029
01:23:39,593 --> 01:23:53,112
That's the thing, like you want to be able to automatically pay someone within like a few microseconds or at least at least a bit within a second.

1030
01:23:53,152 --> 01:23:57,593
You want to pay anyone on this planet by reading a QR code and press send.

1031
01:23:58,313 --> 01:24:00,272
And there is no real.

1032
01:24:01,793 --> 01:24:09,432
I mean, I don't know of any alternative that can make that happen when when you are just working across chains and providers.

1033
01:24:09,672 --> 01:24:11,593
The Lightning Network just works.

1034
01:24:11,593 --> 01:24:19,552
It's very easy to integrate into any other structure like covenant pools or sidechains or anything.

1035
01:24:19,832 --> 01:24:23,152
The other thing you have with sidechains is the finality success.

1036
01:24:23,152 --> 01:24:33,753
I'm sorry. And with Lightning, you can just have longer timeouts and you can still have instant finality and these good settlement times.

1037
01:24:33,753 --> 01:24:41,513
Even though you have like, let's say, like a hundred times worse finality assumptions on a sidechain than on main chain, it still works.

1038
01:24:41,513 --> 01:24:43,952
You just have to give it a longer timeout.

1039
01:24:44,753 --> 01:24:51,193
So, yeah, those are the reasons why I actually believe there would be Lightning Network involved if you had sidechains.

1040
01:24:52,712 --> 01:24:58,233
Yeah, that makes sense, because the sidechain does have slower confirmations, basically.

1041
01:24:58,593 --> 01:25:00,353
So if you had a preconfirmed.

1042
01:25:02,633 --> 01:25:08,552
Channel that was opened on the sidechain, then it would be very, very, very, very, very confirmed.

1043
01:25:08,552 --> 01:25:23,633
Beginning and then then you'd have instant payments after that, so that would be something I don't know to what extent you can try to use the like.

1044
01:25:26,432 --> 01:25:36,392
Like, we'll have to see, like in practice, exactly like how often are the sidechain blocks reorganized because maybe they just never are in practice, you know.

1045
01:25:36,633 --> 01:25:46,353
And if so, then you could use the OP_CAT double span protection technique thing and then they would just be instant anyway.

1046
01:25:47,992 --> 01:25:50,992
Yeah, that's always an option, I guess.

1047
01:25:54,193 --> 01:26:06,272
That's why I said, I kind of think stuff like Moon Wallet that didn't really work on main chain, it was very popular for a while when we had one sub every byte, but then it just didn't work.

1048
01:26:06,513 --> 01:26:24,113
Completely died when we had an actual fee regime, but I kind of think it will be popular on sidechains like it just just seems practical, not having actual channels, not having to suffer with actual channels and running a lightning node for, you know, the average user.

1049
01:26:24,113 --> 01:26:41,873
Well, why can't, why don't you elaborate some of that because I bet a lot of people listening don't understand why, why was Moon so extra sensitive to the fee rate.

1050
01:26:41,873 --> 01:26:47,533
extra sensitive to the fee rate and they did these submarine swap

1051
01:26:47,533 --> 01:26:52,053
things which basically means they they made an on -chain transaction pretty much every

1052
01:26:52,053 --> 01:26:56,833
time you pay the lightning invoice or receipt over lightning so that was an on -chain

1053
01:26:56,833 --> 01:27:01,833
transaction because you can just just do naked htscs and interact with

1054
01:27:01,873 --> 01:27:03,173
the Lightning network that way.

1055
01:27:03,513 --> 01:27:08,793
You can find an HDI -C where the hash lock correlates to Lightning invoice, right?

1056
01:27:09,833 --> 01:27:11,433
And it works.

1057
01:27:12,473 --> 01:27:18,293
But the problem with that is these schemes have a large, large on footprint that is

1058
01:27:18,293 --> 01:27:22,813
just not economic on -chain, unless you really have really low fees.

1059
01:27:23,713 --> 01:27:29,693
But we don't expect in the future main chain, we have low fees on the side

1060
01:27:29,693 --> 01:27:35,493
chains. However, that's the entire reason for half of them to exist is

1061
01:27:35,493 --> 01:27:41,413
to give you more programming capabilities, like CAD, stuff like expressive

1062
01:27:41,413 --> 01:27:42,153
co -enants,

1063
01:27:44,633 --> 01:27:50,073
and to basically everyone be able to afford to go these on -chain UTXOs.

1064
01:27:51,233 --> 01:27:55,833
really, if a sidechain gets to bloated, then people can just migrate to a one and drop

1065
01:27:55,833 --> 01:27:57,493
that one. that's it.

1066
01:27:57,493 --> 01:28:03,493
So certainly with the sidechains, idea of having especially scarce,

1067
01:28:04,113 --> 01:28:09,933
like significantly painfully scarce block space is like an alien idea

1068
01:28:09,933 --> 01:28:11,453
to the sidechain idea.

1069
01:28:11,893 --> 01:28:17,753
Whereas I think we all agree that the strongest fee pressure will be felt on

1070
01:28:17,753 --> 01:28:23,653
L1. And in fact, more easily people can escape L1 and jump

1071
01:28:23,653 --> 01:28:29,493
ship to L2, the less anyone will care about the high L1 fees so they

1072
01:28:29,493 --> 01:28:31,653
will be able to paradoxically be higher

1073
01:28:32,953 --> 01:28:38,473
because they will be netting a lot of stuff on the upper layers

1074
01:28:38,473 --> 01:28:44,093
so yeah so I agree with that I think that's a very good it's a very good point

1075
01:28:44,093 --> 01:28:47,553
I didn't know that every time moon

1076
01:28:48,753 --> 01:28:53,433
just does a submarine swap like whenever this is needed or literally every time.

1077
01:28:53,873 --> 01:29:15,873
That's, that's, that's what I heard. I never actually used it, to be honest. So I'm just going by what people people said. But, but I think it really died, we started to have a fee regime, pretty, pretty fast. And now they are trying to be on liquid, maybe I think that's the next best thing for them.

1078
01:29:15,873 --> 01:29:33,873
Hmm. Yeah. Well, it would obviously be better if they are not on liquid and we're on like a normal mining based sidechain.

1079
01:29:33,873 --> 01:29:58,873
Exactly.

1080
01:29:58,873 --> 01:30:17,873
For the convenience and the privacy purposes, people could still pull up on the sidechains. And that would be kind of the best of both worlds, because you have very, very low cost real estate that nobody really uses, because nobody's valuing it. Nobody feels it while you're able to actually use it, but it's there to use it.

1081
01:30:17,873 --> 01:30:37,873
And that's kind of an ideal world. You have a lean main chain, you don't go the big block direction, anyone can run a node. And you also have lean sidechains, where people just pull up for privacy, and to have real peer to peer cash that is ungovernable. That would be kind of cool.

1082
01:30:37,873 --> 01:30:53,873
I'm not saying that's what would happen, because there are trade-offs, of course, always. And people might actually value the extra security and the extra simplicity of not having to give a damn about being online even just once every two weeks.

1083
01:30:53,873 --> 01:31:14,873
So holding your UTXOs on chain is like the best backup scheme, basically, the most user-friendly, most robust backup scheme that exists. So maybe it wouldn't happen, but still, I kind of think it makes sense to actually have stuff like ARK on sidechains.

1084
01:31:24,873 --> 01:31:32,873
Okay, cool. Well, we should let anyone else who wants to comment pop up.

1085
01:31:36,873 --> 01:31:38,873
Come on, Bitcode, hello. Yes, hello.

1086
01:31:38,873 --> 01:31:57,873
I was researching something in the last few days, and I think that now drivechain will have potentially a very good use case with the data security. Not cyber security, data security.

1087
01:31:58,873 --> 01:32:12,873
Why I'm saying this, because the companies are having so much problem with ransomware and stuff like that, and even individuals, that's a very big problem.

1088
01:32:13,873 --> 01:32:27,873
The companies even put their yearly kind of allocation for their yearly budget for data protection and ransomware to pay the hackers if something happened.

1089
01:32:28,873 --> 01:32:48,873
So drivechain, because the sidechains will have that same node infrastructure, and if it's enough decentralized, that will be a good kind of use case for a sidechain to exist.

1090
01:32:49,873 --> 01:32:57,873
Obviously for drivechain, because more decentralized is no single point of failure, and the data can be secured there.

1091
01:33:01,873 --> 01:33:12,873
What did you exactly mean by data secured? Like, you just mean like, I kind of, I think I cut out a little bit and I missed what you were talking about. You mean like putting files?

1092
01:33:13,873 --> 01:33:14,873
Yeah, yeah.

1093
01:33:15,873 --> 01:33:25,873
Yeah, I think people will do this encryption thing on every chain, and I think different chains will sort of specialize on, like you were saying, payments for each region.

1094
01:33:26,873 --> 01:33:48,873
Yeah, but I mean, drivechain is the best possible, after Bitcoin, the best possible for securing data, because it uses the peer-to-peer node, and no other chain uses the same infrastructure.

1095
01:33:49,873 --> 01:34:04,873
I mean, yeah, they use these forks and stuff like that, but, you know, I don't know, I can't say they are reliable, like BSV or Bitcoin Cash or any other chain.

1096
01:34:04,913 --> 01:34:05,853
other chain.

1097
01:34:08,433 --> 01:34:12,493
Plus, we will be secured on VR1, any transaction.

1098
01:34:13,033 --> 01:34:18,893
that's why Drivechain has the biggest kind of

1099
01:34:18,893 --> 01:34:20,593
opportunity for that use case.

1100
01:34:27,640 --> 01:34:29,120
Oh yeah, I'm bullish.

1101
01:34:31,120 --> 01:34:37,060
don't know, mean, don't think, I just like, what I see is a lot of stuff

1102
01:34:37,060 --> 01:34:39,000
that is, I'm not very good.

1103
01:34:40,300 --> 01:34:41,873
But it will take a while

1104
01:34:41,873 --> 01:34:46,173
because a lot of things are just people don't really know what it is they're messing

1105
01:34:46,173 --> 01:34:48,473
with so it's not until like wallet of Satoshi is

1106
01:34:50,233 --> 01:34:54,393
deleted or whatever from the episode of people really grasp what it meant that it was

1107
01:34:54,393 --> 01:34:59,953
custodial and it's moon seller was saying about you know moon wallet It

1108
01:34:59,953 --> 01:35:04,753
was relying on these submarine swaps to overcome many of the shortcomings

1109
01:35:04,753 --> 01:35:06,993
of lightning so

1110
01:35:08,333 --> 01:35:13,853
So anyway, those are just, but I think that probably

1111
01:35:13,853 --> 01:35:15,693
this is the equilibrium idea.

1112
01:35:15,833 --> 01:35:21,233
mean, even for things like there's no, even for, so for BitVM, 51 % hash rate can still

1113
01:35:21,233 --> 01:35:22,413
steal all the coins.

1114
01:35:23,513 --> 01:35:29,313
also they, you have a situation where you have to have a group of people,

1115
01:35:29,553 --> 01:35:31,073
one of which is like

1116
01:35:33,113 --> 01:35:38,713
the sidechain and each of them need put like some deposit that they can get slashed.

1117
01:35:40,433 --> 01:35:41,433
DriveSho just doesn't have that.

1118
01:35:41,993 --> 01:35:43,593
anyway, MoonSattler, have a hand?

1119
01:35:44,053 --> 01:35:45,073
then we have Morgan also.

1120
01:35:45,773 --> 01:35:51,693
hello. I want to talk to you Paul in just a minute, but I'm about to get interviewed on

1121
01:35:51,693 --> 01:35:55,253
the street about angry train horns being honked in San Diego.

1122
01:35:55,573 --> 01:35:57,853
if you're going to be here for five minutes, I want

1123
01:35:57,873 --> 01:35:58,353
to talk to

1124
01:35:59,273 --> 01:36:02,032
Okay, great. Yeah, sure. I'll be here.

1125
01:36:03,873 --> 01:36:16,153
So I just wanted to ask, what do you think about that? How would the future look like where we have this weird thing? Let's say in 10 years, we have quantum computers that can actually crack

1126
01:36:16,273 --> 01:36:45,593
like 256 bit elliptic curve private keys from the pub keys. So you have this, maybe it takes minutes, maybe it takes seconds. So basically, most people seem to think that in such a future Bitcoin cannot really exist. Because post quantum schemes, as far as we know, would make the blocks like stupid big, even with the current output and scaling, it would almost be impossible because

1127
01:36:46,072 --> 01:36:55,633
you don't really have multiparty computations for such crypto schemes, you don't really have multisig that that can be

1128
01:36:56,753 --> 01:37:00,672
aggregated the same way, nor can you don't really have

1129
01:37:02,393 --> 01:37:02,672
like

1130
01:37:04,353 --> 01:37:13,072
the whole thing seems pretty bleak in that situation. But assuming that actually the hash functions remain resistant for say the next hundred years.

1131
01:37:13,672 --> 01:37:25,792
I kind of imagined that something like drivechain can still be secure because it is secured by the miners and if if that is the proof of work, I'll go if shuttle and the 56 remains

1132
01:37:26,513 --> 01:37:34,593
quantum resistant enough that it's just not feasible for quantum computers to generate meaningful second images.

1133
01:37:36,813 --> 01:37:49,373
Because that would absolutely guard the blockchain possibly so that that will be a huge problem. But it's a much tougher problem for them than cracking, you know, pop keys and I mean,

1134
01:37:52,493 --> 01:38:05,253
I just don't think it's as big of a thing as you like think about it like this, if they crack shot 256 D, like whatever, or just shot 261. If they crack that, then

1135
01:38:06,813 --> 01:38:08,772
people would just switch that for something else.

1136
01:38:09,533 --> 01:38:21,493
I mean, the blockchain history is kind of, you know, secured by that every every transaction in the market tree can be replaced, and you wouldn't know what is real and what is not the same way.

1137
01:38:21,493 --> 01:38:22,373
Yeah, absolutely.

1138
01:38:22,373 --> 01:38:24,453
absolutely. was no right now.

1139
01:38:24,593 --> 01:38:30,593
So yeah. You that, but then you replace it as the block hashing thing and the Merkle

1140
01:38:30,593 --> 01:38:31,953
tree hashing thing.

1141
01:38:32,533 --> 01:38:37,113
And you would have some kind of like, first of all, you would just be building on top

1142
01:38:37,113 --> 01:38:37,573
of the

1143
01:38:37,653 --> 01:38:40,793
old block history with the new hashing function.

1144
01:38:41,053 --> 01:38:45,573
So it's true that all the old work would be reduced by a factor of whatever, 100

1145
01:38:45,573 --> 01:38:47,873
trillion or something, or just reduced to zero.

1146
01:38:48,473 --> 01:38:52,113
But it wouldn't matter because you'd be building on that with the new hashing

1147
01:38:52,113 --> 01:38:52,773
algorithm.

1148
01:38:53,733 --> 01:38:56,413
similarly, you'd have to do something, I agree.

1149
01:38:56,573 --> 01:39:02,493
You wouldn't rely on any of the old Merkle trees, you would do a

1150
01:39:02,493 --> 01:39:07,973
UTXO or something, or a UTXO commitment with a new

1151
01:39:08,253 --> 01:39:20,133
So you just swap out the hat. It's not so bad. You know what I mean? It's like one gear breaks, you go in, you replace the gear. So if it cracks ECDSA, then people would just switch to a new quantum resistant thing.

1152
01:39:20,133 --> 01:39:43,533
Now, maybe that would be terrible, because, you know, the as we've discussed, they take up a ton of space. So that so that maybe wouldn't be great. But it also, it wouldn't be the end of the world either. Because think about it like this. I mean, on one hand, we would have the signatures or whatever, they would be bigger, but we live in a world that is obviously having some kind of

1153
01:39:44,613 --> 01:39:46,492
400 times bigger, roughly.

1154
01:39:47,012 --> 01:40:12,253
Yeah, so that's bad. But think about it like this also. Well, in that world, we're having some kind of computer science revolution, because quantum computing is like going mainstream. And also probably a lot of people will set to work on trying to build a more efficient, like all the smartest minds of the world. You know, maybe not all of them. But the point is, this would be a new research interest.

1155
01:40:12,253 --> 01:40:38,292
Can you build a quantum, like something that is quantum resistant cryptography? And I bet I bet someone would improve on that factor, because you know how this is, like, sometimes people look into a thing and they improve it enormously. And so but the other thing I have to point out is that we still really aren't close. Like I heard all this stuff back and forth, but then I decided to investigate it more deeply.

1156
01:40:39,253 --> 01:41:01,133
And so the when something has like 1000 qubits, that is really only like one actually useful, like stable virtual bit or something. So we're basically at like one qubit, basically, everyone's, everyone's being fast and loose with the language and lying about it, basically not telling the truth.

1157
01:41:02,133 --> 01:41:29,572
So they are lying. And, you know, I can, there's like an article I found that explains this pretty well, like a science article about like, do you know what I mean? Like, if they have, they have some physical bits, but because of how unstable and unreliable they are, you have to have all this redundancy, and you need like, literally, like 5600 for each single bit to actually like have an actually useful bit that will like make it to the end of the computation.

1158
01:41:29,572 --> 01:41:56,973
Yeah, I mean, that was the breakthrough. That was the breakthrough that they figured out how to create, in theory, stable logical qubits by using a bunch of physical qubits organized in some mesh. And if that works, then then it actually opens up to potentially exponential scaling. So that is why people are talking about it's conditional, like this stuff has to work. Nobody knows if it actually works in practice.

1159
01:41:56,973 --> 01:42:08,253
But if it works, if this breakthrough works, and they can start, you know, exponentially growing the number of logical qubits, then, then, yeah, I see what you mean.

1160
01:42:08,253 --> 01:42:09,853
Things will escalate very fast.

1161
01:42:09,853 --> 01:42:14,693
Make a huge, huge room full of like, whatever, like liquid nitrogen, and it has like,

1162
01:42:14,693 --> 01:42:39,092
These are very tiny. So you probably can have million qubits in a single chip size, eventually. So, so yeah, we don't know, we don't know if this will happen in our lifetime. We don't know if it will ever happen. We don't know if quantum computers actually work. As far as I know, we don't do not know that. But there is a chance that within 10 years, these will cause a problem for these signature schemes.

1163
01:42:39,413 --> 01:42:45,652
And again, that is a very good intuition that we think hash functions will actually hold a much longer, stronger.

1164
01:42:45,652 --> 01:42:59,492
So you would have a situation where everything hash based, hash logs, and covenants, and proof of work, and the Bitcoin structure would actually, you know, work just fine.

1165
01:42:59,973 --> 01:43:18,293
And you can't have these stupid large quantum resistance signatures on mainchain, but maybe we could just have them easily on a sidechain or a bunch of sidechains, you know, and then we are back to in the situation where, you know, it might actually make sense to abandon in the in this interim period.

1166
01:43:19,092 --> 01:43:28,453
And I think you actually argued that mainchain would actually be abandoned by most users for actual transactions.

1167
01:43:28,453 --> 01:43:36,932
And in this situation, it might actually be forced, you know, because the signature schemes just don't work, and they become stupidly expensive.

1168
01:43:36,932 --> 01:43:44,772
If you want to, even if you forked in some quantum resistance signature scheme, it would be like only treasuries and VLs that can afford it.

1169
01:43:48,293 --> 01:43:56,293
Yeah, that all makes sense to me.

1170
01:43:56,293 --> 01:43:59,332
I think so now we have more hands, though.

1171
01:43:59,332 --> 01:44:00,853
Morgan is back.

1172
01:44:00,853 --> 01:44:02,853
Did you make it back from being interviewed about?

1173
01:44:02,853 --> 01:44:04,133
No, not yet.

1174
01:44:04,133 --> 01:44:05,413
They're still standing over there.

1175
01:44:05,413 --> 01:44:06,932
But I'm here.

1176
01:44:06,932 --> 01:44:09,172
Yeah, I'm here at Edge.

1177
01:44:09,172 --> 01:44:11,172
I did QA at Edge right now.

1178
01:44:11,172 --> 01:44:16,533
And our office is right next to a trolley stop and the San Diego Amtrak station.

1179
01:44:16,533 --> 01:44:19,092
And the mayor didn't pay and sign some documents.

1180
01:44:19,092 --> 01:44:21,492
So now the trains have to honk every five minutes.

1181
01:44:21,492 --> 01:44:22,853
And you can hear him now.

1182
01:44:22,853 --> 01:44:24,212
And so everyone's angry.

1183
01:44:24,212 --> 01:44:27,172
So I'm going to get asked if it's upsetting my life.

1184
01:44:27,172 --> 01:44:30,212
I'm working on Bitcoin all day, which will be nice.

1185
01:44:31,253 --> 01:44:33,092
I got my I got my Edge T-shirt on.

1186
01:44:33,092 --> 01:44:34,293
So it's good advertising.

1187
01:44:36,293 --> 01:44:37,813
So I got a question for you.

1188
01:44:37,813 --> 01:44:38,772
Kind of technical thing.

1189
01:44:38,772 --> 01:44:43,652
I remember last time I talked with you on this space, you were mentioning the ability

1190
01:44:43,652 --> 01:44:44,772
to do tests.

1191
01:44:46,052 --> 01:44:50,612
I don't know if they were Cygnet or Testnet drivechains.

1192
01:44:51,172 --> 01:44:56,612
But where's the progress or the situation on an experiment?

1193
01:44:58,612 --> 01:44:59,332
Yeah, I'm running it.

1194
01:44:59,332 --> 01:45:01,492
I'm looking at the Cygnet network right now.

1195
01:45:02,133 --> 01:45:04,212
Yeah, I'll invite you to it.

1196
01:45:04,293 --> 01:45:12,293
It's like, again, I'm trying to overhaul the front end, which maybe I'm biting off too

1197
01:45:12,293 --> 01:45:13,492
much at once.

1198
01:45:13,492 --> 01:45:17,413
But I think I'll send you the software.

1199
01:45:18,052 --> 01:45:19,492
Well, anyway, just download it.

1200
01:45:19,492 --> 01:45:21,652
It's at releases.drivechain.info.

1201
01:45:21,652 --> 01:45:22,212
That's where I put.

1202
01:45:25,092 --> 01:45:29,092
But it's like buyer beware, because it's all like changing the software all the time.

1203
01:45:29,172 --> 01:45:35,092
So well, I know Bitcode was talking about some data experiments.

1204
01:45:35,092 --> 01:45:43,013
So in my love of life, I'm a mycologist, and I'm making machines that interact with fungi.

1205
01:45:43,013 --> 01:45:45,172
So I'm doing a lot of bioinformatics stuff.

1206
01:45:45,813 --> 01:45:49,973
And I've been pitching my company to VCs for the last few months.

1207
01:45:49,973 --> 01:45:52,853
And a lot of the things are using the blockchain.

1208
01:45:52,853 --> 01:45:54,212
And I would actually love to.

1209
01:45:54,372 --> 01:46:00,052
I used to put bioinformatics fungal data in Counterparty a long time ago with not too

1210
01:46:00,052 --> 01:46:01,332
much success.

1211
01:46:01,332 --> 01:46:10,612
So I would love to be able to put species identification, DNA tags, location data in

1212
01:46:10,612 --> 01:46:19,653
blockchain transactions, because I do a lot of callbacks and node propagation of data.

1213
01:46:19,732 --> 01:46:24,453
And I would love to like plug Bitcoin into that in some way, just to say that I did.

1214
01:46:25,093 --> 01:46:31,013
And I've done some weird inscriptions of sciency data to see if that looks cool and

1215
01:46:31,013 --> 01:46:32,052
inordinal.

1216
01:46:32,052 --> 01:46:39,732
But I'm really interested in like, okay, could we make like a sidechain that is specifically

1217
01:46:40,612 --> 01:46:45,653
storing biological data, like fungus and bacteria and virus and plants?

1218
01:46:46,213 --> 01:46:48,532
You know, I mean, hey, anything for the VCs.

1219
01:46:49,573 --> 01:46:54,052
Yeah, yeah, you know, that's sounds like I don't know if that would.

1220
01:46:54,052 --> 01:47:02,532
But see, this is the point is, I kind of think that people should, you know, be free to just

1221
01:47:02,532 --> 01:47:03,492
to do whatever they like.

1222
01:47:04,052 --> 01:47:10,773
And even if it doesn't make sense to me, personally, I want to try it out, you know,

1223
01:47:11,732 --> 01:47:19,972
be to like, just have some database of all of your informatics, like, and then basically,

1224
01:47:19,972 --> 01:47:25,093
like an open timestamps type of a thing, or just like, just stamp the state and put it

1225
01:47:25,093 --> 01:47:25,893
in like every.

1226
01:47:28,052 --> 01:47:29,893
And then you can just say it's on the blockchain.

1227
01:47:29,893 --> 01:47:30,852
And it'll be true enough.

1228
01:47:31,732 --> 01:47:36,852
Because it's one hash every 10 minutes, but then the whole database state will be there,

1229
01:47:36,852 --> 01:47:37,492
you'll have it.

1230
01:47:37,573 --> 01:47:38,532
So look, here it is.

1231
01:47:38,532 --> 01:47:39,573
And here it is on the blockchain.

1232
01:47:40,773 --> 01:47:47,653
Well, like, for context, like, I used to do stuff in OP_RETURN.

1233
01:47:48,372 --> 01:47:57,573
And then I used to do things where, basically, a long time ago, I made this very old thing

1234
01:47:57,573 --> 01:48:00,932
that was like the first Bitcoin ATMs code base.

1235
01:48:00,932 --> 01:48:05,813
And it was like, if this Bitcoin address receives this much Bitcoin, then this machine will

1236
01:48:05,813 --> 01:48:06,773
do this.

1237
01:48:06,852 --> 01:48:12,213
And I used a lot of callbacks and webhooks and things like that to make it Arduino do

1238
01:48:12,213 --> 01:48:14,773
something whenever a Bitcoin transaction happened.

1239
01:48:14,773 --> 01:48:20,213
And I always thought like, if I put some like sciency data in OP_RETURN or in a transaction,

1240
01:48:20,213 --> 01:48:26,453
and a machine could like respond to not money, but data being put in a transaction, that

1241
01:48:26,453 --> 01:48:33,492
it was a little bit verifiable and distributable in a way that where I didn't have to run the

1242
01:48:33,492 --> 01:48:34,852
database, you know.

1243
01:48:34,852 --> 01:48:39,573
And so I don't want to like shove an entire massive database in a blockchain.

1244
01:48:39,573 --> 01:48:41,492
I think that's kind of inefficient.

1245
01:48:41,492 --> 01:48:47,013
But I would love to make like devices respond to data that's in a transaction.

1246
01:48:47,893 --> 01:48:53,093
Because I feel like it's, you know, the fancy word of decentralized, I feel like more people

1247
01:48:53,093 --> 01:48:57,732
around the world could interact with that on a, you know, a blockchain explorer with

1248
01:48:57,732 --> 01:49:00,532
like, with an API or something, you know.

1249
01:49:00,532 --> 01:49:07,972
And I'm wondering how drivechains, how I could build a biological blockchain that

1250
01:49:07,972 --> 01:49:12,693
functions in that way, you know, where I'm not pissing off all of the angry Bitcoin Core

1251
01:49:12,693 --> 01:49:13,653
developers, you know?

1252
01:49:16,932 --> 01:49:25,172
Well, yeah, like I was saying, I think the, I think it's, people should experiment with

1253
01:49:25,972 --> 01:49:27,492
this and to have fun with it.

1254
01:49:28,453 --> 01:49:35,172
I think definitely, there's a lot to be said for just timestamping something, putting the

1255
01:49:35,172 --> 01:49:37,972
hash on the blockchain, and just saying it's on the blockchain.

1256
01:49:37,972 --> 01:49:41,813
That's, that's as much on the blockchain as it's ever going to get.

1257
01:49:42,773 --> 01:49:50,292
Realistically, I think that definitely having like, payments trigger other payments.

1258
01:49:51,412 --> 01:49:53,972
That is, that's actually not that interesting to me.

1259
01:49:53,972 --> 01:49:58,693
But that is basically like most of what like Ethereum does, and most of like what DeFi in

1260
01:49:58,693 --> 01:50:03,573
Ethereum is, as far as I can tell, like, it's just like, if this pays that, this triggers

1261
01:50:03,573 --> 01:50:04,133
this other thing.

1262
01:50:05,013 --> 01:50:09,172
So like, like, think about it like this, like, if you were in the woods, and I'm going to

1263
01:50:09,172 --> 01:50:11,492
use my mushroom mycology experiment.

1264
01:50:11,492 --> 01:50:14,773
If you're in the woods, and you found a cool mushroom that no one had ever seen, and you

1265
01:50:14,773 --> 01:50:21,172
take a picture of it, and you upload it to our mushroom database, you found something

1266
01:50:21,172 --> 01:50:27,093
novel and new, I would love for money to be triggered in some way that like, here's a

1267
01:50:27,093 --> 01:50:32,932
dollar in Bitcoin or $5 in Bitcoin, thank you for contributing to this data.

1268
01:50:32,932 --> 01:50:38,453
And like, I would love money to respond to uploading data, like an incentive, you know,

1269
01:50:38,453 --> 01:50:39,253
pretty hard.

1270
01:50:39,253 --> 01:50:45,093
I mean, I would start small, you know, I would just like, I would say, standardize all the

1271
01:50:45,093 --> 01:50:47,093
database stuff first submit.

1272
01:50:47,093 --> 01:50:51,573
And then I would say, like, when when people submit, what I would do is I would honestly

1273
01:50:51,573 --> 01:50:54,453
try to build it around Namecoin and identity.

1274
01:50:54,453 --> 01:51:01,653
And I would say, you have like a an identity as the, you know, mushroom scientists, number

1275
01:51:01,653 --> 01:51:07,013
45, or whatever, you know, mushroom guy, whatever, whatever your birth year is mushroom guy

1276
01:51:07,013 --> 01:51:07,653
in 92.

1277
01:51:07,653 --> 01:51:08,693
I'm just making things up.

1278
01:51:09,573 --> 01:51:17,412
But the, you do that, then you submit the data, then everyone will know how to to message

1279
01:51:17,412 --> 01:51:22,852
you by Namecoin, and even how to send you money, and they might send you a tip to every

1280
01:51:22,852 --> 01:51:29,253
the whole world will know who which, which username was responsible for the contribution.

1281
01:51:29,253 --> 01:51:32,693
And then the people around the world, you automatically be added to lists.

1282
01:51:33,573 --> 01:51:37,732
And then people could maybe they could maybe tip you or something that's probably better

1283
01:51:37,732 --> 01:51:41,573
than like trying to come up with something where you preload money into like some kind

1284
01:51:41,573 --> 01:51:46,612
of extremely exotic smart contract that is somehow like, whether or not someone is adding

1285
01:51:46,612 --> 01:51:49,093
data that's real to a database or something.

1286
01:51:49,093 --> 01:51:50,693
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get you.

1287
01:51:50,693 --> 01:51:52,852
Okay, so, well, I want to do that.

1288
01:51:52,852 --> 01:51:55,492
I want to do some different experiments.

1289
01:51:55,492 --> 01:52:00,372
And I definitely want to propagate, you know, drive change to the world.

1290
01:52:00,932 --> 01:52:09,653
And I would love to use that as a architecture if I can, because I definitely think putting,

1291
01:52:11,013 --> 01:52:14,612
you know, the incentives, there's is a big potential business.

1292
01:52:15,732 --> 01:52:19,732
I go out with hundreds of people in the woods and gather fungus at the San Diego

1293
01:52:19,732 --> 01:52:22,213
Mycological Society, but then we throw it all away.

1294
01:52:22,213 --> 01:52:28,133
We don't, we don't get to give it to a DNA company or a cryo bank, we are not incentivized to

1295
01:52:28,852 --> 01:52:30,052
share what we found.

1296
01:52:30,052 --> 01:52:35,893
And I feel like that's a big thing in the world is finding stuff in nature and incentivizing

1297
01:52:35,893 --> 01:52:37,972
people to share it digitally.

1298
01:52:38,532 --> 01:52:40,372
So that's kind of what I'm working on.

1299
01:52:40,372 --> 01:52:46,372
And I always thought that counterparty was going to be a good way to do that.

1300
01:52:46,372 --> 01:52:50,213
And, and I, you know, no one cares anymore over there.

1301
01:52:50,213 --> 01:52:57,172
So I want to make something that's going to be used, you know, and more uses, I think,

1302
01:52:57,172 --> 01:52:58,932
pushes more ideas out there, you know?

1303
01:53:00,532 --> 01:53:01,172
Yeah, I agree.

1304
01:53:02,292 --> 01:53:07,013
It's really weird that ordinals would take off and counterparty sort of would not.

1305
01:53:07,573 --> 01:53:08,852
They're kind of almost the same thing.

1306
01:53:10,372 --> 01:53:15,492
You know what, you know, I had a conversation with Casey about that.

1307
01:53:15,492 --> 01:53:18,213
And, you know, I was like, why, why don't you like dust?

1308
01:53:18,213 --> 01:53:23,573
You know, and he told me, you know, in 2022, that it's up there on Twitter, he was like,

1309
01:53:23,573 --> 01:53:26,852
well, this is, I think my, my model is a little more elegant.

1310
01:53:26,852 --> 01:53:34,693
And I think actually not having the XCP token or a secondary token, that is probably a good

1311
01:53:34,693 --> 01:53:39,492
thing in a sense that people think they're using Bitcoin as the brand, they're not using

1312
01:53:39,492 --> 01:53:41,093
something else as a brand, you know?

1313
01:53:41,093 --> 01:53:42,532
Isn't it totally wacky, though?

1314
01:53:42,532 --> 01:53:49,013
Because also, like people say, like, the best thing is to, like, issue a token, because

1315
01:53:49,013 --> 01:53:51,573
that will give you that will supercharge, you know what I mean?

1316
01:53:51,573 --> 01:53:55,013
Like, that's the joke, like, that's the, like, the Gwart joke or whatever, you know,

1317
01:53:55,013 --> 01:53:59,732
like, just issue a token, if you want to succeed, doesn't matter if you have no users, doesn't

1318
01:53:59,732 --> 01:54:05,013
matter if you have no product, just issue the token, like, that is, that is the way

1319
01:54:05,013 --> 01:54:10,372
to get the group enthusiastic behind you, you know?

1320
01:54:11,813 --> 01:54:16,213
So it's kind of funny, like, it doesn't really make any sense, one way or the other.

1321
01:54:16,213 --> 01:54:22,773
Okay, so it is an experiment years ago, I made on Counterparty, phosphorus and sugar

1322
01:54:22,773 --> 01:54:29,172
and calcium tokens with those words, and then like watts and volts and ohm tokens, so that

1323
01:54:29,172 --> 01:54:35,013
those specific data signals had a name on them, and they could be looked up on an explorer

1324
01:54:35,013 --> 01:54:39,492
that, oh, this, these are wattage signals, or these are volt signals, or these are sugar

1325
01:54:39,492 --> 01:54:40,373
signals.

1326
01:54:40,373 --> 01:54:44,373
And I just thought that was a good thing to have, like, a name attached.

1327
01:54:46,772 --> 01:54:54,052
But in a database with random numbers on it, where you got, I wanted to make it very nice

1328
01:54:54,052 --> 01:54:59,093
and clean, where, you know, you're looking at calcium movements, or you're looking at

1329
01:54:59,093 --> 01:55:02,772
sugar and phosphorus data, just by putting the word on it.

1330
01:55:02,772 --> 01:55:07,973
So I, like, bought every scientific element word I could find on Counterparty, I thought

1331
01:55:07,973 --> 01:55:08,853
that was so cool.

1332
01:55:08,853 --> 01:55:11,412
And then, you know, no one cared, and no one uses it.

1333
01:55:11,412 --> 01:55:16,373
So I'm wondering, like, the word, the brand, I think Ordinals is super successful, just

1334
01:55:16,373 --> 01:55:21,493
because people say they're using Bitcoin, they're not using Namecoin or another word,

1335
01:55:21,493 --> 01:55:22,532
you know what I mean?

1336
01:55:22,532 --> 01:55:28,292
Like, humans are simple, and it's all Bitcoin, it sounds less complicated to people, you

1337
01:55:28,292 --> 01:55:28,792
know?

1338
01:55:33,493 --> 01:55:37,093
It's like brand problems, marketing problems, more than science problems.

1339
01:55:37,973 --> 01:55:39,493
Well, yeah, I suppose.

1340
01:55:39,493 --> 01:55:41,493
I mean, marketing is very important, I think.

1341
01:55:43,652 --> 01:55:46,373
Especially when it's like a really complicated new technology.

1342
01:55:46,373 --> 01:55:52,052
You remember that in like the show Silicon Valley, and the CEO, he tries to go around

1343
01:55:52,052 --> 01:55:58,213
and give like an educational talk to like explain Pied Piper to people, which is like

1344
01:55:58,213 --> 01:56:04,052
a completely failed, like, endeavor that doesn't work at all.

1345
01:56:04,532 --> 01:56:09,813
I kind of think that that is realistic, sometimes, people just want something that works better

1346
01:56:09,813 --> 01:56:11,172
than some other thing they already have.

1347
01:56:12,772 --> 01:56:14,132
And that's all they need to know.

1348
01:56:14,132 --> 01:56:16,132
It's better in this way.

1349
01:56:18,373 --> 01:56:24,853
Well, I definitely think, you know, putting the money where your mouth is, like, look,

1350
01:56:24,853 --> 01:56:28,532
I made this thing, it works, is better than talking.

1351
01:56:28,532 --> 01:56:33,493
And I spend years like trying to talk about some cool Bitcoin stuff, and I'm like, no,

1352
01:56:33,493 --> 01:56:35,573
it's cool, Bitcoin ideas.

1353
01:56:35,573 --> 01:56:40,052
And it wasn't until I got to like, show some shit working on Counterparty that I had some

1354
01:56:40,052 --> 01:56:41,172
people pay attention.

1355
01:56:41,172 --> 01:56:46,613
So I really feel I want to make like some test drivechains and show them off to people

1356
01:56:46,613 --> 01:56:48,132
and say, look, it works.

1357
01:56:48,132 --> 01:56:55,252
I think that's a super important push for BIP300 is like showing different experiments

1358
01:56:55,252 --> 01:56:58,613
that it functions and like showing the toys off, you know?

1359
01:57:01,412 --> 01:57:02,213
Yeah, absolutely.

1360
01:57:02,213 --> 01:57:03,012
Yeah, definitely.

1361
01:57:03,652 --> 01:57:04,453
Yeah, I'm going to be more.

1362
01:57:04,453 --> 01:57:05,652
So I'm up for it.

1363
01:57:05,652 --> 01:57:06,613
I want to contribute.

1364
01:57:07,733 --> 01:57:08,292
Cool.

1365
01:57:08,292 --> 01:57:16,853
Yeah, we have, I keep messing with the test software, but I think pretty soon I will like

1366
01:57:16,853 --> 01:57:21,172
make like a bunch of, you know, a bunch of noise on Twitter about it, and I'll put up

1367
01:57:21,172 --> 01:57:23,093
like whatever screenshots and like stuff.

1368
01:57:23,093 --> 01:57:31,252
But if anyone cares, and they're listening now, it's on releases.drivechain.info.

1369
01:57:31,252 --> 01:57:34,453
And that's where it is.

1370
01:57:35,733 --> 01:57:39,813
That's like sort of where I put it when I'm messing with it.

1371
01:57:39,813 --> 01:57:43,973
But then I have like my own private versions that I'm messing with more.

1372
01:57:43,973 --> 01:57:45,333
And it's always changing.

1373
01:57:45,333 --> 01:57:47,093
So, but yeah, sure.

1374
01:57:47,093 --> 01:57:56,613
If you really want to, if you're not afraid of like a weird user experience, then try

1375
01:57:56,613 --> 01:57:59,813
to download this stuff and use it and hop into the Telegram.

1376
01:58:00,453 --> 01:58:02,132
I'm totally going to do that, man.

1377
01:58:02,132 --> 01:58:06,693
I'm QA, so I like breaking user interfaces, you know what I mean?

1378
01:58:06,693 --> 01:58:07,252
So it's fun.

1379
01:58:09,652 --> 01:58:14,772
Yeah, I mean, we're going to have, I mean, we have already, they don't, we have to improve

1380
01:58:14,772 --> 01:58:15,892
the way they look a little bit.

1381
01:58:16,932 --> 01:58:19,973
But we have already like test network.

1382
01:58:19,973 --> 01:58:23,012
We have a version of Ethereum that you can use.

1383
01:58:23,012 --> 01:58:25,412
We have a version of Zcash that you can use.

1384
01:58:26,453 --> 01:58:29,412
We have version of like a Namecoin version that you can use.

1385
01:58:29,412 --> 01:58:33,652
We have this BitAssets thing, which is more like a counterparty as a sidechain that you

1386
01:58:33,652 --> 01:58:34,052
can use.

1387
01:58:34,052 --> 01:58:40,453
We have a large block sidechain that I call Thunder that is like high performance, ground

1388
01:58:40,453 --> 01:58:42,532
up rewrite in Rust.

1389
01:58:43,573 --> 01:58:52,453
And we actually have a sidechain that has, it has, I don't know, I think it's sort of

1390
01:58:52,453 --> 01:58:58,772
works now, but it's like the latest version of Bitcoin Core plus BIP 119, 118 and OpWalt.

1391
01:59:00,052 --> 01:59:03,973
So maybe we should add OP_CAT to that, but we haven't done that yet, so.

1392
01:59:03,973 --> 01:59:06,532
Yes, I encourage that.

1393
01:59:06,532 --> 01:59:09,813
We should, we should, we should all, we should all push cats out.

1394
01:59:09,813 --> 01:59:10,772
Maybe you should do it.

1395
01:59:14,132 --> 01:59:15,892
I'm okay, I'll do that.

1396
01:59:15,892 --> 01:59:17,813
I love projects, so I'm down for it.

1397
01:59:17,813 --> 01:59:19,172
OP_CAT is not even that big.

1398
01:59:19,172 --> 01:59:21,412
It's like a, it's like a one little paragraph of code.

1399
01:59:21,412 --> 01:59:21,973
It's not that big.

1400
01:59:22,693 --> 01:59:23,813
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1401
01:59:23,813 --> 01:59:27,172
And they did it in, you can probably copy the way they did it because we have the latest

1402
01:59:27,172 --> 01:59:30,613
version of Bitcoin Core, which has, it's like version 26 or whatever.

1403
01:59:31,573 --> 01:59:35,252
So it should have like the tap root, tap script, all that other stuff, which is what they did.

1404
01:59:35,252 --> 01:59:37,892
So, so yeah, I think you do that.

1405
01:59:37,892 --> 01:59:45,172
The only issue is of course that it, for me, I would prefer it if all the stuff like worked

1406
01:59:45,172 --> 01:59:48,772
very easily and you could just click buttons and coins would just pop from one thing to

1407
01:59:48,772 --> 01:59:51,333
the other, like sort of instantly.

1408
01:59:51,973 --> 02:00:00,693
But it's kind of, yeah, like, you know, yeah, quality control is sort of needed, especially,

1409
02:00:00,693 --> 02:00:03,012
I mean, like I'm like messing around with this front end stuff.

1410
02:00:03,012 --> 02:00:10,373
So like, kind of like if you, if you just run a, a script, it will all work, but that's

1411
02:00:10,373 --> 02:00:12,853
not really the same thing.

1412
02:00:12,853 --> 02:00:15,252
People need like buttons they can click on.

1413
02:00:15,973 --> 02:00:21,093
Yeah, I'm telling you, I'll tell you right now, if, if, if you've not used Edge,

1414
02:00:21,333 --> 02:00:27,012
Edge is a great wallet and we just went to a new UI for, and it's going to look so pretty,

1415
02:00:27,012 --> 02:00:30,453
but you know, prettiest is also makes phones catch on fire.

1416
02:00:30,453 --> 02:00:32,532
So user interfaces are tough.

1417
02:00:33,172 --> 02:00:33,733
Of course.

1418
02:00:33,733 --> 02:00:34,213
Yeah.

1419
02:00:34,213 --> 02:00:34,772
Yeah.

1420
02:00:34,772 --> 02:00:35,252
Difficult.

1421
02:00:38,453 --> 02:00:41,652
But I'll, I'll step down and I'll, I'm going to go do some more work.

1422
02:00:41,652 --> 02:00:42,532
Yeah, try the software.

1423
02:00:42,532 --> 02:00:43,012
That would be very, very helpful.

1424
02:00:43,012 --> 02:00:44,453
I will totally do that.

1425
02:00:44,453 --> 02:00:45,973
I'm definitely going to do that.

1426
02:00:45,973 --> 02:00:50,052
And then you'll see what I'm doing, like very slowly, honestly.

1427
02:00:50,052 --> 02:00:50,932
I'm very lazy.

1428
02:00:50,932 --> 02:00:59,333
So like if other people will see what I'm trying to do and then be like, okay, Paul,

1429
02:01:01,252 --> 02:01:02,052
you're too slow.

1430
02:01:02,052 --> 02:01:02,932
I will just do this.

1431
02:01:02,932 --> 02:01:03,892
I'll just add OP_CAT.

1432
02:01:05,172 --> 02:01:09,493
Then that would probably be helpful because I'm just kind of like, I work on it and I'm

1433
02:01:09,493 --> 02:01:11,252
like, I don't know, I'm bored with this.

1434
02:01:12,213 --> 02:01:14,292
Take, it takes some motivation.

1435
02:01:14,292 --> 02:01:14,693
Yeah.

1436
02:01:14,693 --> 02:01:14,932
Yeah.

1437
02:01:14,932 --> 02:01:15,892
It takes motivation.

1438
02:01:15,892 --> 02:01:16,292
I know.

1439
02:01:16,292 --> 02:01:18,052
And like, I'm all for it, man.

1440
02:01:18,052 --> 02:01:19,493
So I'll definitely contribute.

1441
02:01:20,932 --> 02:01:22,132
Cool.

1442
02:01:22,132 --> 02:01:22,373
Great.

1443
02:01:25,573 --> 02:01:26,373
Okay, cool.

1444
02:01:28,132 --> 02:01:31,012
This is the end of the second hour.

1445
02:01:31,012 --> 02:01:33,733
So come on up.

1446
02:01:33,733 --> 02:01:35,573
Anyone who has a question or comment?

1447
02:01:36,853 --> 02:01:43,252
Robin, sadly, he had to go to a different, whatever he said, appointment.

1448
02:01:43,252 --> 02:01:44,613
He used a very curious word.

1449
02:01:45,573 --> 02:01:51,733
But we were here before, so we recorded.

1450
02:01:53,252 --> 02:02:01,012
So play the recording if you want to hear Robin and I discuss, you know, BidVM and L2s

1451
02:02:01,012 --> 02:02:01,573
and things.

1452
02:02:03,892 --> 02:02:12,292
If no one comes up and asks anything, then we will have to end the space, which might

1453
02:02:13,252 --> 02:02:15,093
be great because you get to enjoy your Friday.

1454
02:02:15,093 --> 02:02:20,213
But if anyone has anything that they would really just, that they're just dying to know,

1455
02:02:21,333 --> 02:02:22,453
this is definitely the time.

1456
02:02:31,573 --> 02:02:33,573
Nope, doesn't really seem like anything.

1457
02:02:33,573 --> 02:02:35,172
People seem to be leaving slowly.

1458
02:02:38,693 --> 02:02:41,493
Still, we have, what is this, 23.

1459
02:02:43,252 --> 02:02:45,093
But no one wants to come up.

1460
02:02:46,932 --> 02:02:53,973
So it seems like, unless someone comes up quickly, we'll just say thanks to everyone

1461
02:02:53,973 --> 02:02:54,853
for joining.

1462
02:02:54,853 --> 02:02:56,292
Thanks to Robin for joining.

1463
02:02:57,652 --> 02:02:58,693
Thanks for listening.

1464
02:02:59,973 --> 02:03:01,172
See everyone next time.

1465
02:03:02,853 --> 02:03:04,052
Happy Friday to all.

1466
02:03:08,213 --> 02:03:09,012
Okay, great.