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OK, hello.

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Sorry, I was two minutes late today.

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We got Vlad up here.

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Let's make him a co-host, even though all the people

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he's blocked cannot attend.

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Now, usually, these spaces, they start off kind of slow.

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But then, by the end, no one wants to quit.

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And we have to stay for lots of extra innings.

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So I don't know how to get past the slow part

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in an entertaining way.

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I played the Mario slide.

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Maybe Vlad and I should just talk about something,

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the events of the week.

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Yeah, definitely.

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I really want to brag about the posters that

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were in Warsaw at the Film Fest.

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I think more than 500 people attending the Film Fest

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and MoneroCon saw them.

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And I even got a video from the organizer, which

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showed a few people talking in front of one of these posters.

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I think it's kind of cool.

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It gets people talking.

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And I think it's important to talk prior to the launch

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and figure out how eCash can be used

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and how it's useful to a lot of developers

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and lots of use cases.

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That's cool, yeah.

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And of course, my last name is Polish.

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I'm half Polish.

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So it was great to be.

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I appeared as some kind of serial killer of some kind.

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I don't know.

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I'm the undertaker of Bitcoin, maybe, was the implication.

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But yeah, it's cool that you got a video.

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So that would be neat to see.

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You should post it.

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And yeah, one poster at a time, one movie poster at a time.

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Now we have a JCB has requested.

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So welcome.

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And ask your question or criticize

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or whatever it is you want to do.

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I have two questions.

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One, how do you say your last name?

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Yeah, the T is a T-S in Polish.

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So it's like storts.

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It's kind of a little bit like in English.

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Like in America, they have words like Brandanowicz.

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That was a character on Parks and Rec.

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And I think those end in like T. So it's

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like that kind of thing.

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So storts, yeah.

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Gotcha.

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Yeah, I'm Polish as well.

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So I was curious.

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And I really just have a question,

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just kind of broad or whatever.

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But what did you make of the Zcash thing recently?

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That was very dramatic.

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Well, I think the challenge is to explain why the Zcash price

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crashed so much.

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I think because I don't think what happened

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was actually that bad.

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We're all living in an age, if you've been paying attention

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to technology, we're living in this age

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where everyone is worried about these AI coding robots

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because reading lines of code is very tedious.

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And if a semicolon is in the wrong place or if a C is

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canceled, like the DAO hack, I think, was like the word C.

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The letter C was supposed to be capitalized or something,

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and it wasn't.

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So one tiny little mistake that a human can easily make

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and versus these LLMs can just inhale huge amounts of text,

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and they can read everything, every code.

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They can read all the code that's ever been written,

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and they can read about all the security vulnerabilities

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that have ever happened in human time.

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So everyone who's been following knows

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that these AI people are going to be

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very good at checking code and scanning

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through a whole report much, much faster.

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There used to be an old rule of thumb that is the rule of thumb

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was that it's actually easier for a human to write new code

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than it is to read code.

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And this is why developers often would just

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get their hands dirty with something

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and just start writing it.

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And it's very easy also to do like 80% of a project.

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Like in a software project, you can get like 80% of the way

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there in like the first weekend.

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And then it takes you two years to finish the rest of it.

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These are common software things.

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So of course, the Zcash people hired

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people to vet their own project.

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One of them used these AI powers and found like a bug.

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And then they fixed it quietly, and then they

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decided to tell everyone about it.

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This is the real, the unintended consequence

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might be like don't tell anyone.

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Because they disclosed it, and everyone like smelled blood.

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It was like the wounded gazelle.

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It reminds me of this book that someone wrote about if they

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painted, if the hyenas, you know,

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there was a book about like African animals

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like hunting each other.

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And if they paint an animal with like a white stripe,

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even if it's really healthy, it like

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guarantees that like the pack animals, the hyenas and stuff,

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will like hunt it down and kill it.

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Because it just stands out.

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It doesn't blend in like with the herd or whatever.

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That was the implication.

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So it was like everyone turned on Zcash all of a sudden.

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But I think objectively, the effects of the case

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are not that bad.

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They kind of did everything right.

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And this was always a property of the enhanced privacy

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of Zcash.

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So is any of this answering your question?

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Is this any of the things you were curious about?

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Do you have something else?

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I guess one more thing is, you know, do you have like

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developers, or do you have like, you know,

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these kind of AI guys, or any, you know,

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what's the cavalry looking like for eCash?

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Yeah, that's a good question.

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So I think, though, so first of all,

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we have like 10 or so developers.

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And you know, some of them really like the AI tools.

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Others are a little more skeptical.

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And I think both of that, those are both very healthy.

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But I think it's a very, you framed it very well.

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But I think it's a misunderstanding.

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So like this project, I think, is superior

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to the other projects in an important way,

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which is that everyone else has to have like the cavalry

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like fighting each other.

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And it's like whichever has the best developers

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is like going to win.

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But really, that's not the idea of this project.

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The L1 for eCash will just be the same as Bitcoin Core,

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with like the bare minimum number of changes

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to like split the network off

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and give it like a different name.

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And so we're just going to like copy Bitcoin Core

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being open source.

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And that's also true for the L2s.

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So like, for example, the zSide is L2.

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It just used the Orchard Crate.

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So from the Orchard Rust Crate.

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So when they fix it in Zcash, we just also fix it.

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And so we intend to keep,

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because when you have a cavalry, you have to maintain them

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and you're dependent on them.

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So this is a huge, huge problem.

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So first of all, how do you fund development

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has been a question that has sunk many projects.

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It's like helped destroy kind of Bitcoin Cash

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to some extent,

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because Omri, the developer of Bitcoin Cash

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tried to do this thing where he was like paying himself

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out of every mandatory, out of every block,

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something like that.

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You can look into it if you're interested, but.

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And then you're reliant on them.

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And this was actually the problem

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that the large blockers had with BTC in the first place

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was that they wanted the block size increase,

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but the developers didn't agree with that direction.

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And it was like, well, what do you do now?

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So this project is just completely on it.

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We not only, it's like,

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not only do we have our cake and eat it too,

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but we're like getting the cake for free

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or the lowest price.

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So someone's paying us to eat the cake or something

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because we're going to just copy whatever other stuff

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people write or anything else that other people do

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in Bitcoin Core, on Altcoin world,

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we'll copy that.

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And we'll say, we don't, you know,

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we don't take responsibility for inventing new things,

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even though on top of that, we will also invent new things.

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Because I actually think

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that we have some cool things to invent

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and we understand the whole ecosystem very well.

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So we will invent some things.

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But they will compete with.

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I feel like inherit is the good, the best term here.

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Maybe you inherit, you know.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Cool, man.

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And you see, this is much better in many ways

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because it's like, if we paid people

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to like fight in the developer trenches,

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then we have to pay them.

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Then we have to like figure out like, are they any good?

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Like, should we promote them or fire them

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or do something else?

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And it becomes quite a big mess.

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Just the fact that the L2s themselves will compete.

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I think that will actually hold all of these people in line.

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And the fact that BIP300 allows you to start a new L2,

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that means that they cannot really conspire

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to roadblock or gatekeep the project.

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And then in the L2s themselves,

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they will probably start competing with each other.

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So as a result, I think this project will have, you know,

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it will be sort of future-proofed

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and it will have the cutting edge technology

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doing with the least amount of effort.

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So I think that is a very important difference.

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The cabaret will be fighting for free, I think.

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Very cool.

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Looking forward to it.

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It's a great name, by the way.

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Oh, okay, thanks.

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Sorry, I was busy bringing someone else up

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in the menu system.

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But yeah, thank you.

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Thanks very much.

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Thanks for your question.

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Now we got a KREV23, or a KREV.

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Howdy, howdy.

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Hello.

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Yeah, I just wanted to drop in and tell you guys

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that L2s, you got to forget about L2s

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because once you're above the network itself,

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now all of a sudden you're custodian.

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So, I mean, we get away with mining

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because it's not a service that I'm giving you specifically.

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When you do your transaction on the Bitcoin network,

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I personally am not mining it.

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But if I'm running an L2,

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I'm the one that's running that.

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And so that's why Tornado Cash

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and all those guys get in trouble

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is because there's enough legal ambiguity

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around quote-unquote custodians

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that they can fudge things

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and put people in jail for no reason.

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Thank you.

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Okay, well, I definitely agree

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that those people shouldn't be in jail.

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I disagree that every L2 is custodial.

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Some are, some clearly are,

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and then some clearly are not,

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and then there's others also.

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So it seems like you just assumed

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that they would all be custodial.

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But in this case-

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It's not me that assumes it.

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I just assume it by default

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because that's the way the laws have been applied.

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I mean, if you look at any of the cases

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against people in crypto,

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that's the way that they're interpreting it.

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And so we don't really have a choice

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over how they're going to prosecute us.

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See what I'm saying?

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Yeah, but like imagine they,

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so like they prosecute,

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like for example, let's say they try to prosecute me,

263
00:11:40,719 --> 00:11:45,520
the creator of the idea of PIP 300,

264
00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,719
which is led to eCash where someone else,

265
00:11:49,719 --> 00:11:53,599
like for example, the Z sidechain is not,

266
00:11:54,799 --> 00:11:56,880
some of the L2s will be submitted

267
00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,479
by like people that we don't even know.

268
00:11:59,479 --> 00:12:03,000
And I guess the question is like, I don't know,

269
00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,440
like I suppose anyone could argue anything,

270
00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:07,320
but I think,

271
00:12:11,039 --> 00:12:12,599
to what extent are we going to be responsible

272
00:12:12,599 --> 00:12:15,239
for like extremely bizarre arguments?

273
00:12:16,119 --> 00:12:17,520
You're absolutely right, dude.

274
00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,000
Paul, I'm not even arguing with you right there.

275
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,919
I agree with you 100%.

276
00:12:22,919 --> 00:12:25,960
The thing is, is that it's not up to us

277
00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,239
to know whether it's legal for you to do

278
00:12:28,239 --> 00:12:31,119
what you're trying to do with our currency.

279
00:12:31,119 --> 00:12:33,359
It's not up to us.

280
00:12:33,359 --> 00:12:35,760
But the thing is, is the legislators,

281
00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:36,960
they don't see it that way.

282
00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,320
They just point to us as a facilitator of it

283
00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,239
and say, oh, you're the responsible party.

284
00:12:43,239 --> 00:12:46,799
I'm not responsible for you doing sports betting

285
00:12:46,799 --> 00:12:51,119
in a country that it's illegal in using my cryptocurrency.

286
00:12:51,119 --> 00:12:53,280
I'm not, you know?

287
00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:58,280
But we can't really depend on them

288
00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:00,359
to apply the law as it stands.

289
00:13:00,359 --> 00:13:02,960
They will literally break the law to bust us

290
00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:04,799
because we're competing with banks

291
00:13:04,799 --> 00:13:06,919
who are their primary sponsors.

292
00:13:08,039 --> 00:13:09,719
Well, you know, it's interesting that

293
00:13:09,719 --> 00:13:12,119
in the early days of BTC,

294
00:13:12,119 --> 00:13:14,640
a lot of the developers,

295
00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,520
this didn't really include me at the time,

296
00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:18,960
but a lot of these people,

297
00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,799
they were convinced that they would go to prison,

298
00:13:21,799 --> 00:13:25,119
actually, just for developing on BTC.

299
00:13:25,119 --> 00:13:26,440
So they were kind of like,

300
00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,799
but they ended up being kind of wrong about that.

301
00:13:29,799 --> 00:13:32,320
And even I heard a lot of interesting, you know,

302
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,799
rumors and stories that I kind of believed

303
00:13:34,799 --> 00:13:37,640
that like the US government was going to try

304
00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:39,960
to arrest Vitalik

305
00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,000
and claim he was doing securities offerings

306
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:44,679
or something like that.

307
00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,039
And he just kind of like, they couldn't get away.

308
00:13:47,039 --> 00:13:49,200
They couldn't do it for a long time.

309
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:50,239
And then they just,

310
00:13:50,239 --> 00:13:52,200
the momentum for the case fell apart

311
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,640
as Ethereum grew into a bigger project.

312
00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:57,080
It would have been sort of too embarrassing

313
00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,159
or too anti-innovation.

314
00:13:59,159 --> 00:14:00,599
So I don't know.

315
00:14:00,599 --> 00:14:03,000
I think it's like very unclear

316
00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,159
exactly what's going on over there

317
00:14:05,159 --> 00:14:08,200
in the legal department, for lack of a better word.

318
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:11,559
It kind of seems like if you do the right thing,

319
00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:13,479
you might suffer horribly.

320
00:14:13,479 --> 00:14:16,159
If you do the wrong thing, you might get away with it.

321
00:14:16,159 --> 00:14:17,239
You know, like some people get away

322
00:14:17,239 --> 00:14:20,960
with doing the wrong thing and other people then.

323
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,320
So it just seems kind of like, why care about it at all?

324
00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,599
It's like, I think it's actually,

325
00:14:26,599 --> 00:14:29,599
unfortunately for our justice system,

326
00:14:29,599 --> 00:14:34,119
which is, this is a lamentable thing,

327
00:14:34,119 --> 00:14:35,400
but unfortunately it doesn't seem,

328
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:36,520
in this particular case,

329
00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,479
it's a space of like software and technology.

330
00:14:39,479 --> 00:14:44,000
It does seem like there's very little connection

331
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:45,599
between what people do,

332
00:14:45,599 --> 00:14:47,599
whether or not it's objectively right or wrong

333
00:14:47,599 --> 00:14:50,119
or harms people or helps thousands

334
00:14:50,119 --> 00:14:52,640
or millions of billions of people,

335
00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:54,760
and whether or not they end up suffering

336
00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,799
or being praised or whatever.

337
00:14:58,799 --> 00:15:01,039
As a result, it all seems very arbitrary.

338
00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:02,799
So.

339
00:15:02,799 --> 00:15:03,719
It is.

340
00:15:03,719 --> 00:15:05,359
I couldn't agree more there.

341
00:15:05,359 --> 00:15:06,719
And, you know, again,

342
00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,320
it's something that Congress plays with,

343
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:14,039
that we're actually free to use whatever we want as money.

344
00:15:14,039 --> 00:15:15,039
And as a matter of fact,

345
00:15:15,039 --> 00:15:17,119
it's the only reason why the Federal Reserve

346
00:15:17,119 --> 00:15:20,159
wasn't immediately shut down as counterfeiters,

347
00:15:20,159 --> 00:15:24,919
because we are free to use whatever we want as money.

348
00:15:24,919 --> 00:15:27,359
Whereas legal tender laws,

349
00:15:27,359 --> 00:15:29,440
the reason people were after legal tender laws

350
00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,080
is that's something that the government does.

351
00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:33,799
You know, it's not legal for the government

352
00:15:33,799 --> 00:15:35,679
to use other things as money,

353
00:15:35,679 --> 00:15:38,039
but it's perfectly legal for us to.

354
00:15:38,039 --> 00:15:40,960
But they don't wanna really bring that into the court.

355
00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,080
You know, and that's one of the reasons,

356
00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,640
I think, anyway, that they didn't go after us to begin with

357
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,679
and why they kind of eased up on Ethereum.

358
00:15:49,679 --> 00:15:52,039
Where they went after Ethereum though,

359
00:15:52,039 --> 00:15:54,200
where they really shouldn't have,

360
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,960
is the ICOs.

361
00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:58,799
When the securities-

362
00:15:58,799 --> 00:16:00,919
Yeah, I always hated those,

363
00:16:00,919 --> 00:16:01,960
because they were all terrible.

364
00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:03,640
But at the same time,

365
00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,119
I think, like, I don't know,

366
00:16:07,119 --> 00:16:08,479
it's hard to see like,

367
00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,400
like it would have maybe been okay,

368
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,000
because now all that people will do is like,

369
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:15,640
the whole evolution of the space

370
00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:17,640
has been towards useless kind of,

371
00:16:18,599 --> 00:16:21,280
like you can do like NFTs and meme coins and things,

372
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,880
like that's allowed because you explicitly say

373
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,200
that it's not anything other than,

374
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,400
so it has kind of caused a far greater derangement

375
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:35,119
than even the ICOs themselves were causing at the time.

376
00:16:35,119 --> 00:16:35,960
But let me ask you this,

377
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:37,919
you're not again, you're not in favor of L2s

378
00:16:37,919 --> 00:16:40,599
for legal reasons, but you're in favor of what?

379
00:16:40,599 --> 00:16:43,599
You are, are you like a large block Bitcoin SV-er

380
00:16:43,599 --> 00:16:48,320
or what's your favor of life?

381
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,400
I'm for Bitcoin that I was sold.

382
00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,640
And if you read the Bitcoin white paper,

383
00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,000
it's entirely contextualized

384
00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:00,919
in terms of a network consisting of people's PCs,

385
00:17:00,919 --> 00:17:03,440
we're all running a stupid app in the background

386
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,160
that is basically maintaining

387
00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,359
a permissionless global payment network.

388
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:11,439
And we're being compensated for it

389
00:17:11,439 --> 00:17:15,000
by transaction fees and the block subsidy.

390
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:16,839
That's where I signed up for

391
00:17:16,839 --> 00:17:19,880
and until that comes back in Bitcoin,

392
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,880
I'm gonna petition to do whatever the hell you wanna do.

393
00:17:23,479 --> 00:17:26,079
Personally, ICOs, Layer 2s,

394
00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:30,119
I have absolutely zero animus against any of them.

395
00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:34,079
I think if you invest in it, that's your dog.

396
00:17:34,959 --> 00:17:37,640
How it shakes out in the market,

397
00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,599
whether or not the people rug you,

398
00:17:39,599 --> 00:17:43,239
that's all up to you, man, it's due diligence.

399
00:17:43,239 --> 00:17:45,040
And it's weird because it seems like

400
00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:46,199
there's a lot of people out there

401
00:17:46,199 --> 00:17:48,920
that keep wanting to treat crypto like stocks.

402
00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,160
Crypto is not stocks.

403
00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:55,719
And the worst part about it is you can't change that.

404
00:17:55,719 --> 00:17:58,479
It doesn't matter what legislators you get after us,

405
00:17:58,479 --> 00:18:01,839
it doesn't matter what laws you write in the books,

406
00:18:01,839 --> 00:18:03,640
you can't change that.

407
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:05,880
What you can do is stick to markets

408
00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,119
that you're actually comfortable with.

409
00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:12,319
And if you feel comfortable with Visa, stay in Visa.

410
00:18:12,319 --> 00:18:14,520
If you've got expectations of stocks

411
00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:18,800
that you're buying representations of shares of a company,

412
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,760
you trust in the SEC and you go do that.

413
00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:23,920
But here in crypto,

414
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:25,920
when I tell you I'm selling you a Bitcoin,

415
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,880
I'm not selling you a representation of a Bitcoin,

416
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,400
I'm not selling you a part of a company,

417
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:36,160
I'm selling you a product of a network of volunteer miners.

418
00:18:38,319 --> 00:18:39,520
There you go.

419
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:40,920
Okay, that's pretty interesting.

420
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,719
But in your conception, everyone is like CPU mining at home,

421
00:18:44,719 --> 00:18:46,079
which is, that's tough.

422
00:18:46,079 --> 00:18:48,599
That's the way it's actually gonna go back to.

423
00:18:48,599 --> 00:18:50,880
I know that people like to pretend

424
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:54,800
that you can overpower the need for actual organic use

425
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,640
and users with compute, but you can't.

426
00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,800
And as a matter of fact, all you have to do

427
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,599
is look back at the history of industrial mining,

428
00:19:02,599 --> 00:19:06,280
starting back in like 2015, 2016.

429
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,319
There is not a single industrial miner

430
00:19:09,319 --> 00:19:14,280
that started back then that is in existence right now.

431
00:19:14,319 --> 00:19:16,800
And it's because you can't do it.

432
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,800
You cannot sustain one of those huge hash farms

433
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,239
on 5,000 transaction fees per block.

434
00:19:24,239 --> 00:19:25,560
You can't do it.

435
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:30,560
You need to increase the number of transactions per users.

436
00:19:31,199 --> 00:19:32,839
Well, I totally agree that we need, yeah,

437
00:19:32,839 --> 00:19:34,119
we need more people using it

438
00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,920
and there needs to be payments.

439
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,199
And the payments market is huge

440
00:19:39,199 --> 00:19:41,640
and it's more than big enough to.

441
00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:43,599
But yeah, it seemed to me like you were saying also

442
00:19:43,599 --> 00:19:48,359
that everyone gets compensated with the fees,

443
00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:50,479
not only pays, but also receives.

444
00:19:51,447 --> 00:19:54,487
That's the way you're supposed to be able to get Bitcoin.

445
00:19:54,487 --> 00:19:59,367
Well, maybe. I mean, I agree that it's very cool that the mining was half of an exchange because

446
00:19:59,367 --> 00:20:03,287
it was like if you could just turn on your computer, you would pay some real resources

447
00:20:03,287 --> 00:20:08,327
and you would get Bitcoin. So that was a very, very cool way of acquiring Bitcoin. But I'm sure

448
00:20:08,327 --> 00:20:13,367
you would agree that now it's not possible to mine without at least, I mean, I guess you get a

449
00:20:13,447 --> 00:20:18,407
bit of X, you know, but you need like, you need like, it's not just on the computer.

450
00:20:19,846 --> 00:20:26,726
The economics of Bitcoin, they only really support a network whose use and volume of

451
00:20:26,726 --> 00:20:32,886
transactions increases over time. If you don't get more miners over time, the network becomes

452
00:20:32,886 --> 00:20:37,447
weaker. If you don't get more transaction fees over time, you don't have enough incentive to

453
00:20:37,447 --> 00:20:46,167
cause people to mine. But as I said, the economics behind Bitcoin, they will not sustain a

454
00:20:46,167 --> 00:20:52,566
limited block size in perpetuity. They just won't. The miners have a choice as to whether or not they

455
00:20:52,566 --> 00:20:57,207
enforce the block size limit, and they are going to choose not to in the future.

456
00:20:58,406 --> 00:21:04,167
Well, actually, that's part of the idea of this BIP300301 idea in a way, which is that it says

457
00:21:04,487 --> 00:21:08,086
that basically you have these different block sizes, they're like, some of which are like

458
00:21:08,086 --> 00:21:14,006
optional, like, kind of like plugins in a way, where you have L1 in which everything starts.

459
00:21:14,726 --> 00:21:19,207
And then you could send coins to a different network, and they would have their own block

460
00:21:19,207 --> 00:21:24,726
size over there. And that's what I think is actually the best for everyone, because people

461
00:21:24,726 --> 00:21:32,646
who don't want to be responsible for the extra transactions that are in separate zone,

462
00:21:33,207 --> 00:21:39,527
don't have to be, but then the people who think that they want to take advantage of more block

463
00:21:39,527 --> 00:21:48,247
space, they also can. So I think that the BIP300301 idea makes everyone happy. Of course,

464
00:21:48,247 --> 00:21:55,447
since it's an idea that makes everyone happy, it ends up being criticized from all sides,

465
00:21:56,006 --> 00:22:00,326
because the small blockers think, well, you're letting them get what they want,

466
00:22:00,326 --> 00:22:05,686
there must be some catch somewhere. And then the large blockers think, why do I have to leave L1?

467
00:22:05,686 --> 00:22:09,287
And even though there's really good answers to both of those questions, people don't seem to want

468
00:22:09,287 --> 00:22:16,087
to. But every time we get a lot of large blocker BSV people, which I think is very intriguing,

469
00:22:16,966 --> 00:22:22,406
I don't like put out for that specifically, but clearly it's interesting. Anyway, we got

470
00:22:22,406 --> 00:22:27,367
Sat Scholar here. What's up, guys? Well, thanks for having me up. I'm at the gym,

471
00:22:27,367 --> 00:22:32,886
so I can't talk long, but I just thought the idea of moving back to PC mining is interesting

472
00:22:32,886 --> 00:22:40,326
and intriguing. I see a lot of just difficult caveats that would have to come about, because

473
00:22:41,447 --> 00:22:47,207
ASICs are produced for the sole purpose of just hatching. We would have to then see

474
00:22:48,886 --> 00:22:55,606
major growth within the chipsets of the CPUs that are just not there right now. So I would love to

475
00:22:55,606 --> 00:23:02,007
see that. And I generally agree with a lot of what Crev is saying, but I think we need to have

476
00:23:02,007 --> 00:23:11,287
a lot more backend infrastructure, kind of support that. And then the other idea is, what is that?

477
00:23:11,287 --> 00:23:17,127
This is a big thing for me, and I've talked about this a lot at length. Moving forward,

478
00:23:17,127 --> 00:23:22,966
like right now, this is going to be the exception in this chat. I'm assuming we all in here have

479
00:23:22,966 --> 00:23:27,046
laptops, and we all in here have computers, right? But go around and talk to normies.

480
00:23:28,487 --> 00:23:36,487
Nobody has PCs anymore, like nobody. Gamers do, I guess. But again, they're the exception. Most

481
00:23:36,487 --> 00:23:44,087
people have phones, tablets. They might have a laptop, right? So how do we get the structures

482
00:23:44,647 --> 00:23:53,606
of Bitcoin, not just the nodes or eCash in this example, the L2s, the mining, the ability to

483
00:23:54,487 --> 00:23:59,927
download and parse the network quickly, how do we get that to start happening on quote-unquote

484
00:23:59,927 --> 00:24:05,766
mobile devices? Because again, Crev, I love what you were saying, and I think I generally 100%

485
00:24:05,766 --> 00:24:11,366
agree with you, but the compute architecture just might not be moving in that direction.

486
00:24:11,366 --> 00:24:19,447
So that's kind of my point. I can see that, but if you look back at the history of the PC,

487
00:24:19,447 --> 00:24:29,366
it ebbs and flows. When you get some major improvement in PCs where they go up an order

488
00:24:29,366 --> 00:24:36,806
of magnitude in computing power, you'll see a little burst in people owning PCs. But a lot of

489
00:24:37,127 --> 00:24:44,327
the trouble that people have with PCs is that you tend to want them at a home. If you don't have

490
00:24:44,327 --> 00:24:52,486
a home, that becomes much less appealing. Things are kind of tough out there in the economy right

491
00:24:52,486 --> 00:24:58,167
now. So people thinking along the terms of mobility, being able to pick up and bail in a

492
00:24:58,167 --> 00:25:05,366
very short period of time, that gets people away from wanting to own PCs. But if you were to take

493
00:25:05,366 --> 00:25:10,887
that PC and turn it into something where no matter where you go, you plug it into the wall,

494
00:25:10,887 --> 00:25:17,127
you hook it, you connect it to the internet, now you're back mining Bitcoin again. It doesn't

495
00:25:17,127 --> 00:25:24,007
matter where you are. You know what I mean? The whole infrastructure idea. You are the

496
00:25:24,007 --> 00:25:30,966
infrastructure. In cryptocurrencies, we are the infrastructure. We've taken the job of banks

497
00:25:30,966 --> 00:25:37,847
and taken it to ourselves. You just break down the little tasks into smaller bits and then

498
00:25:37,847 --> 00:25:43,686
distribute it out through the rest of the world for people to do. I really think that idea of

499
00:25:43,686 --> 00:25:48,966
distributed computing is going to be coming back to you. This whole thing with AI, we need big-ass

500
00:25:48,966 --> 00:25:53,607
data centers. No, you don't need big-ass data centers. We haven't needed data centers since

501
00:25:53,607 --> 00:25:59,767
Napster. It's just been a matter of will. I agree with that. Listen, I'm going to give you

502
00:25:59,767 --> 00:26:05,047
a follow-up, because I do love everything you're saying. I generally agree, and I hope that it

503
00:26:05,047 --> 00:26:10,086
turns out that you're correct. I agree with the data center part as well, because specifically

504
00:26:10,086 --> 00:26:14,966
with that, with AI, it's going to be a race to the bottom. As better, more efficient systems come in,

505
00:26:14,966 --> 00:26:20,246
those data centers are going to just become obsolete. It's like we went from Univac,

506
00:26:20,887 --> 00:26:27,127
and we went to the Cray systems, and then we went to Sun Microsystems and mini PCs,

507
00:26:27,127 --> 00:26:33,686
and now we have laptops. I have some of those. I have some Cray blades and stuff in my collection.

508
00:26:33,686 --> 00:26:40,246
They're cool. They're fun to mess around with. I want to see optimization, though,

509
00:26:40,966 --> 00:26:47,767
also on these decentralized networks. I think that lack of innovation and lack of optimization

510
00:26:47,767 --> 00:26:54,406
has not been happening on the networks, too. Then also, we have to – this is kind of getting off

511
00:26:54,406 --> 00:26:58,486
topic, but we have to acknowledge, too, the general price increases that have happened with

512
00:26:58,486 --> 00:27:03,686
consumer electronics within the last two to three years. I am hopeful that that trend

513
00:27:03,686 --> 00:27:10,246
reverses, but it's not looking good. Having some sort of a way to bridge that gap

514
00:27:11,607 --> 00:27:18,086
is – I'm kind of rambling now, but I think you're a lot directionally correct, Rev, and yeah, kudos.

515
00:27:18,646 --> 00:27:28,167
Okay, cool. I got Justin up here. Hello? And then Dev Toshi also, and then also we got a Shomari also,

516
00:27:28,966 --> 00:27:32,966
but Justin was the next in line, theoretically, if there was a theoretical line.

517
00:27:34,567 --> 00:27:43,847
Hey, thanks. Yeah, in your research into Drivechains and BIP300, and before you arrived at this

518
00:27:44,646 --> 00:27:53,526
at this design, were there other scaling solutions? Obviously, you've thought this

519
00:27:53,526 --> 00:28:00,567
through much longer than I have and anyone else, so you've – is there other solutions

520
00:28:00,567 --> 00:28:06,646
in your research that could potentially scale to 8 billion people? And then

521
00:28:07,607 --> 00:28:17,047
maybe you could also say why Drivechains, BIP300, 301, is the more optimal versus the other

522
00:28:17,047 --> 00:28:25,046
things you've looked into or you've thought about or researched? Yeah, absolutely. I didn't think of

523
00:28:25,046 --> 00:28:31,207
the idea of Drivechain and BIP300 as necessarily a scaling solution. In fact, there is an important

524
00:28:32,166 --> 00:28:37,286
sense in which it's not a scaling solution, so this is – what the heck am I even talking about?

525
00:28:37,286 --> 00:28:42,246
I'm going to try to explain it. Hopefully, it makes sense. But really, when I was thinking

526
00:28:42,246 --> 00:28:48,567
about it, it was 2015 and it was the block size war, and I was really thinking about one question,

527
00:28:48,567 --> 00:28:57,366
which is, can we give both the small blockers and the large blockers what they want, basically?

528
00:28:57,366 --> 00:29:04,007
Is it actually a contradiction? It seems like in Bitcoin Core, the block size has either got to be

529
00:29:04,007 --> 00:29:08,007
one megabyte, which is what it was at the time. It's either got to be one megabyte or it's got

530
00:29:08,007 --> 00:29:13,366
to be something else, so it can't be one megabyte and eight megabytes. And so, that was really the

531
00:29:13,366 --> 00:29:18,806
question, and at the time, I didn't even think about it as a scaling – a, quote, scaling solution

532
00:29:19,366 --> 00:29:22,567
because what really I was thinking about for scaling was something like,

533
00:29:23,527 --> 00:29:30,007
how can you do more transactions with less? You know what I mean? It's kind of like – I'm not

534
00:29:30,007 --> 00:29:34,567
sure if I have a great metaphor queued up for this, but it's kind of like scaling would be

535
00:29:34,567 --> 00:29:39,686
taking advantage of the same one megabytes to do 10 times more transactions with some kind of clever

536
00:29:40,967 --> 00:29:45,447
way of shrinking the transactions or batching the transaction or having them net out or something.

537
00:29:45,447 --> 00:29:49,686
So, I was thinking, oh, it turns out this is kind of what Drivechain is anyway,

538
00:29:50,567 --> 00:29:55,846
but this isn't how I thought about it. So, really, the original Drivechain thing was kind of like,

539
00:29:57,286 --> 00:30:01,686
at the same level, like the same miles per hour or the same rate or whatever,

540
00:30:01,686 --> 00:30:07,366
could we just staple on eight megabytes of space that is useful for the large blockers but

541
00:30:07,366 --> 00:30:12,087
optional for the – ignorable for the small blockers and useful for the large blockers,

542
00:30:12,087 --> 00:30:16,407
and so then everyone can get what they want. And I kind of thought of scaling as like something

543
00:30:16,407 --> 00:30:22,327
else that would be done in some weird other way. It's turned out that a couple of things

544
00:30:22,327 --> 00:30:27,286
over the years, a couple of things have become clearer. One is that the other scaling ideas

545
00:30:28,166 --> 00:30:32,967
don't really work very well, and it's like lightning I'm a huge skeptic of now.

546
00:30:33,606 --> 00:30:39,527
I think it basically won't work at all. And a lot of the other stuff as well has proven to be

547
00:30:40,806 --> 00:30:45,286
the – it looks like the spider chain people, they closed down yesterday or something. I don't want

548
00:30:45,286 --> 00:30:52,087
to pick on them right after they put their sad message out. But people have had these other ideas

549
00:30:52,087 --> 00:30:56,726
that I've kind of thought, you know, like Fedament or something. So, sometimes when people do like

550
00:30:56,726 --> 00:31:02,166
Liquid or Fedament, and it's like they cheat on custody, and they say they would scale the same

551
00:31:02,166 --> 00:31:06,567
way that when you just deposit the Coinbase or the Mt. Gox had some weird system where you could

552
00:31:06,567 --> 00:31:12,407
like send people. So, that's kind of cheating, and it turns out Drivechain actually will work.

553
00:31:12,407 --> 00:31:15,527
And it turns out Drivechain also, just because the way the withdrawals are ignorable,

554
00:31:16,327 --> 00:31:20,087
Drivechain – like I didn't even think of Drivechain as an L2 like back in the day.

555
00:31:21,046 --> 00:31:26,166
I thought sidechains were different from L2s, and now I don't think that at all. I think actually

556
00:31:26,166 --> 00:31:32,407
a sidechain is going to end up – when historians write about this like 20 years from now, they're

557
00:31:32,407 --> 00:31:40,486
going to have to stop and explain that what was called L2 at the time, it meant a bunch of stuff

558
00:31:40,486 --> 00:31:46,567
that didn't work, and then there was also this like one single idea that did work. So, some ideas

559
00:31:46,567 --> 00:31:52,486
I think are interesting, and I think people will be inventing ways of doing more with less.

560
00:31:53,606 --> 00:32:00,166
A third thing that just happened to happen over the last 10-15 years is different from the way

561
00:32:00,166 --> 00:32:09,926
it was in 2015. In 2015, the bottleneck was very clearly bandwidth. So, it was like

562
00:32:10,486 --> 00:32:18,407
the block size could only be so large because there was only so much bandwidth, and bandwidth

563
00:32:18,407 --> 00:32:24,327
especially of certain types that you're guaranteed to get, like a censorship-resistant

564
00:32:24,327 --> 00:32:29,447
bandwidth, or like a Tor bandwidth, or whatever. There was only so much

565
00:32:30,967 --> 00:32:36,486
like a bandwidth available, and so your ability to download the large blocks and then re-upload

566
00:32:36,486 --> 00:32:41,527
them, because the upload speeds were even slower than download speeds, very significantly so back

567
00:32:41,527 --> 00:32:46,647
in the day. There wasn't like video conferencing and stuff. It wasn't like Zoom. There wasn't COVID.

568
00:32:47,686 --> 00:32:54,407
There wasn't work from home, and that also has changed so that now just by stapling extra

569
00:32:54,407 --> 00:33:01,926
block size on, you can actually make it to – not only can you make it to something like 50% of the

570
00:33:01,926 --> 00:33:06,647
current world transaction rate, but it's pretty clear that just in one or two years,

571
00:33:07,846 --> 00:33:13,606
we'll just passively just shoot over the finish line with respect to all these

572
00:33:14,246 --> 00:33:19,127
things that previously would have been the bottleneck resources. And now the bottleneck

573
00:33:19,127 --> 00:33:24,407
resource is just everyone's time and attention and the software. As soon as everyone

574
00:33:24,407 --> 00:33:29,286
upgrades, they'll realize that it kind of does work, or at least it could work. I don't know.

575
00:33:29,286 --> 00:33:34,726
There's no guarantee that it will absolutely work out, but at least it'll be...

576
00:33:35,447 --> 00:33:39,686
It's not the case where the bandwidth speeds were so slow that they just made it

577
00:33:39,686 --> 00:33:45,286
unfeasible for you to have a large number of nodes processing all these blocks,

578
00:33:45,846 --> 00:33:50,327
and such that very few people could ever do. So a lot of weird stuff changed over the years,

579
00:33:51,286 --> 00:33:56,887
and a lot of it was unexpected by me. I thought the Lightning Network would work a lot better,

580
00:33:57,286 --> 00:34:03,127
but I actually know that I'm older and wiser. I think it will not work, and I think it has

581
00:34:03,127 --> 00:34:10,967
become a weird cult, and it has had a negative cultural effect on BTC, and it's contributed to

582
00:34:10,967 --> 00:34:18,407
all kinds of complacency and overconfidence. So those are some things. And yeah, I kind of

583
00:34:18,407 --> 00:34:24,087
didn't think Drivechain would work as well as it does. It does work just fine. There's no guarantee

584
00:34:25,046 --> 00:34:32,887
that it will actually hold up. In the real world, processing 9 trillion transactions a year,

585
00:34:32,887 --> 00:34:36,647
and in a world where there's all these adversarial conditions, and people are lying about it,

586
00:34:36,647 --> 00:34:41,606
and attacking it, and people are prosecuting it, and so and so, and such and such.

587
00:34:43,207 --> 00:34:48,887
So that's a little bit of the story. A lot of the other stuff that's been... Because the second

588
00:34:48,887 --> 00:34:58,087
part of the question was, do I think any other scaling ideas are good? And I'm still open-minded

589
00:34:58,087 --> 00:35:06,407
that some could be good, but actually, I don't even really know if we need any others, because

590
00:35:06,407 --> 00:35:14,967
this one is now sufficient to solve the problem of scaling to 8 billion users. And I think what

591
00:35:14,967 --> 00:35:21,127
we should instead do is we should just focus on, someone launches L2 Drivechain,

592
00:35:22,726 --> 00:35:27,606
what's the current state of the art of that technology? And then what people should do is

593
00:35:27,606 --> 00:35:33,207
they should say, okay, I'm going to fork that project, that L2 node. It's like a large block

594
00:35:33,207 --> 00:35:38,567
size L2 Drivechain node. And I'm going to fork that, and I'm going to make sure that that

595
00:35:39,447 --> 00:35:44,887
as just a software project, like a software fork on GitHub, I'm just going to try to improve that

596
00:35:44,887 --> 00:35:49,686
software. And I think that's all, that's what we need to do. We don't need to actually do

597
00:35:50,407 --> 00:35:56,407
other weird ways of packing more transactions into L1. So now I got Crev23 has his hand up.

598
00:35:56,407 --> 00:36:03,527
So he has a reaction to that, I suppose. I just wanted to say the scaling issue.

599
00:36:03,926 --> 00:36:15,926
You got to understand that the word scale is misapplied here. Like the Bitcoin network is,

600
00:36:15,926 --> 00:36:23,366
it was originally set up was an ad hoc network, meaning that you could come on, hit it, bail,

601
00:36:23,366 --> 00:36:30,967
no problem. That was how it was originally supposed to be. Well, you don't need quote

602
00:36:30,967 --> 00:36:33,046
unquote- It's still that way though, isn't it?

603
00:36:33,046 --> 00:36:34,327
I'm sorry, what was that?

604
00:36:34,327 --> 00:36:35,686
Isn't it still that way?

605
00:36:35,686 --> 00:36:44,567
Oh yeah, for the most part it is. And that's the thing. It's like, you need to scale a service

606
00:36:44,567 --> 00:36:51,447
that you're providing as a service provider. Whereas with Bitcoin, it's capable of taking

607
00:36:51,447 --> 00:36:57,446
everybody's transactions. I mean, you got to think about it in terms of how much information

608
00:36:57,446 --> 00:37:03,527
is one megabyte? How long is it going to take you to download one megabyte? Not very long.

609
00:37:03,527 --> 00:37:07,687
And you're not doing it all at once. You're doing it over a 10 minute block interval. So

610
00:37:08,246 --> 00:37:13,927
it's not like it's something where if you're out in the boonies these days, you don't have to worry

611
00:37:13,927 --> 00:37:18,647
about bandwidth issues because your internet service provider is going to be able to handle it.

612
00:37:20,167 --> 00:37:24,007
Yeah, now we have Starlink, but that was not the case. That was certainly not the case in

613
00:37:24,647 --> 00:37:34,807
2007, 2009 or something. And it's one megabyte per 10 minutes, but it's 1,000 blocks per week.

614
00:37:34,807 --> 00:37:41,687
So it was one gigabyte per week. And that was back in 2010, that was a significant

615
00:37:42,647 --> 00:37:48,807
imposition on someone's home bandwidth. And it's objectively the case that you could not

616
00:37:48,807 --> 00:37:55,687
possibly, and that's even the one megabyte limit, which would have been nowhere near.

617
00:37:56,566 --> 00:37:59,446
Whose problem is that? It just would have kicked you off the network.

618
00:38:00,167 --> 00:38:06,887
Is it Bitcoin's problem or is it your problem? You can probably do something to improve your

619
00:38:06,887 --> 00:38:12,486
internet connection, right? Well, I'm just saying it was very impractical back then,

620
00:38:12,486 --> 00:38:16,966
but today it's actually a moot point because people are downloading 120 gigabyte

621
00:38:16,966 --> 00:38:22,887
call of duty upgrades or whatever, like routinely, and they do Zoom. So that's my point,

622
00:38:22,887 --> 00:38:30,086
is it went from being an enormous burden that would be impossible to meet, or it's absurdly rude

623
00:38:30,726 --> 00:38:37,767
to even ask 99.999% of the population to put up with. It went from that being something-

624
00:38:37,767 --> 00:38:41,527
That's the barrier to entry though, dude. That's the barrier to entry is that you got

625
00:38:42,086 --> 00:38:46,007
minimum requirements. Dude, it's like doom, okay?

626
00:38:48,566 --> 00:38:55,127
I just wanted to ask Justin if he thought that I was making any progress answering his question.

627
00:38:59,927 --> 00:39:00,486
Yeah, yeah.

628
00:39:03,446 --> 00:39:09,767
Because it was a three-part question. So did you have anything else that you wanted to

629
00:39:10,326 --> 00:39:12,887
ask about or did that make any sense or what?

630
00:39:17,606 --> 00:39:23,047
Well, at this point, I don't have enough knowledge to really add anything further,

631
00:39:23,047 --> 00:39:24,566
but yeah, I think you did a good job.

632
00:39:25,927 --> 00:39:29,527
Okay, great. Thanks. Then we had Shomari, I think.

633
00:39:30,966 --> 00:39:32,726
Yeah, I'm just holding up for a moment.

634
00:39:32,726 --> 00:39:33,927
Welcome, hello.

635
00:39:33,927 --> 00:39:38,167
Let me take myself off the Bluetooth. My Bluetooth is terrible, just a moment.

636
00:39:40,784 --> 00:39:43,784
You have a bit of an echo there, Justin.

637
00:39:43,784 --> 00:39:46,784
Yeah, and I disconnected off the Bluetooth.

638
00:39:46,784 --> 00:40:02,784
We had spoken a couple of weeks ago. I'm a builder interested in what the infrastructure of the new eCash network and the sidechains essentially is going to be orchestrated, how it's going to be orchestrated.

639
00:40:02,784 --> 00:40:12,784
And I think we spoke about maybe about three or four sessions ago about it. So I've been looking deeper into some of the technicals.

640
00:40:12,784 --> 00:40:20,784
And it's very interesting. Some of the assumptions that I made, I would say, were not really correct.

641
00:40:20,784 --> 00:40:28,784
But I'm eager to just kind of get something working so that I could start learning from an actual build.

642
00:40:28,784 --> 00:40:34,784
So I hate to kind of make this a little technical, but I did have a few issues that I ran into.

643
00:40:34,784 --> 00:40:40,784
And unfortunately, I don't have Telegram, so I'm not in your group.

644
00:40:40,784 --> 00:40:44,784
So I tried to message you through X a couple of times.

645
00:40:44,784 --> 00:40:50,784
Sorry, I just want to say that X very aggressively pigeonholes people into this.

646
00:40:50,784 --> 00:40:53,784
They have this system, which I think is probably a decent one.

647
00:40:53,784 --> 00:40:56,784
But basically, I usually don't get people's X messages, so I'll look for them.

648
00:40:56,784 --> 00:41:03,784
Because if you've never messaged me before, it puts them into this obscure category called requests that you have to hunt down.

649
00:41:03,784 --> 00:41:07,784
This is like I responded to a message. I didn't DM.

650
00:41:07,784 --> 00:41:10,784
Yeah, I don't even know. I'm not a good DMer.

651
00:41:10,784 --> 00:41:18,784
But I posted. The issue I had was that the network appeared to reset a couple of days ago, like about 40 hours ago.

652
00:41:18,784 --> 00:41:22,784
Yes.

653
00:41:22,784 --> 00:41:23,784
Yeah.

654
00:41:23,784 --> 00:41:29,784
And I can't get back on the live network.

655
00:41:29,784 --> 00:41:33,784
So it's now at like block, let's say 400.

656
00:41:33,784 --> 00:41:35,784
That's not going to happen.

657
00:41:35,784 --> 00:41:37,784
Yeah.

658
00:41:37,784 --> 00:41:40,784
So I just want to know, how do I get back on the actual network is really my question.

659
00:41:40,784 --> 00:41:42,784
I will tell you.

660
00:41:42,784 --> 00:41:47,784
What happens is, so there's this thing, Cygnet, which has fake coins.

661
00:41:47,784 --> 00:41:50,784
And that is an invention from Bitcoin Core, which is kind of useful.

662
00:41:50,784 --> 00:41:52,784
And it's like a version of test net.

663
00:41:52,784 --> 00:41:54,784
But I don't want to go into the details.

664
00:41:54,784 --> 00:41:57,784
But basically, Cygnet is like where people hang out and test things.

665
00:41:57,784 --> 00:42:04,784
And that has a specific this thing that you have to put this value in the file.

666
00:42:04,784 --> 00:42:07,784
Yeah. The Cygnet challenge. Did that change?

667
00:42:07,784 --> 00:42:10,784
It did. And we put it in the Telegram group.

668
00:42:10,784 --> 00:42:12,784
So everyone is on the new one.

669
00:42:12,784 --> 00:42:14,784
And I just like to also say this is pretty unusual.

670
00:42:14,784 --> 00:42:19,784
What happened was we ran the Cygnet for like more than a year without resetting it.

671
00:42:19,784 --> 00:42:21,784
And that was pretty cool.

672
00:42:21,784 --> 00:42:24,784
But then we reset it just because it had too many blocks.

673
00:42:24,784 --> 00:42:27,784
And we were tired of forcing people to download them all.

674
00:42:27,784 --> 00:42:29,784
But then we did the bug hunt.

675
00:42:29,784 --> 00:42:30,784
We did the bug hunt.

676
00:42:30,784 --> 00:42:34,784
And a lot of people participated and sent in some cool bugs.

677
00:42:34,784 --> 00:42:36,784
And so one of the bugs was kind of nasty.

678
00:42:36,784 --> 00:42:38,784
So we were like fixing all these bugs.

679
00:42:38,784 --> 00:42:40,784
So we were like, whatever, we'll just reset it again.

680
00:42:40,784 --> 00:42:42,784
And I kind of like didn't – I guess I didn't really tell anyone.

681
00:42:42,784 --> 00:42:45,784
I didn't know how many people would be on the network.

682
00:42:45,784 --> 00:42:46,784
But there is a new Cygnet challenge.

683
00:42:46,784 --> 00:42:51,784
You can update the dev.txt because that's where I got it from originally.

684
00:42:51,784 --> 00:42:54,784
So if that gets updated, I can just pull it from there.

685
00:42:54,784 --> 00:42:55,784
You're 100% right.

686
00:42:55,784 --> 00:42:56,784
Yeah, you're 100% right.

687
00:42:56,784 --> 00:43:01,784
And normally I would have updated it, but the thing was I was too lazy to do it.

688
00:43:01,784 --> 00:43:05,784
And I just thought, does anyone even look at this thing, this dev.txt?

689
00:43:05,784 --> 00:43:08,784
I worked so hard on it, and I never figure out if anyone is looking at it.

690
00:43:08,784 --> 00:43:10,784
I look at it like multiple times a day.

691
00:43:10,784 --> 00:43:14,784
Because it just reinforces like – I'm just learning at this point.

692
00:43:15,784 --> 00:43:18,784
I'm still confused, and that's the source of truth.

693
00:43:18,784 --> 00:43:23,784
So I just have to keep going back a bit to just understand.

694
00:43:23,784 --> 00:43:26,784
Because there is some discrepancies throughout.

695
00:43:26,784 --> 00:43:27,784
You are right.

696
00:43:27,784 --> 00:43:28,784
But that's not your fault.

697
00:43:28,784 --> 00:43:31,784
It's been a real gospel for me.

698
00:43:31,784 --> 00:43:33,784
So I appreciate that.

699
00:43:33,784 --> 00:43:35,784
Yeah, you are 100% right.

700
00:43:35,784 --> 00:43:38,784
When we reset it, I should have immediately –

701
00:43:38,784 --> 00:43:42,784
Before we reset it, I should have immediately updated it in dev.txt.

702
00:43:43,784 --> 00:43:47,784
And I will – okay, I'll try to do it now while talking.

703
00:43:47,784 --> 00:43:48,784
No, no, no.

704
00:43:48,784 --> 00:43:49,784
It's not an emergency.

705
00:43:49,784 --> 00:43:52,784
The thing is I just wanted to make it clear.

706
00:43:52,784 --> 00:43:55,784
And I never thought that someone wouldn't have Telegram because –

707
00:43:55,784 --> 00:43:56,784
Yeah, yeah.

708
00:43:56,784 --> 00:43:58,784
That's my problem.

709
00:43:58,784 --> 00:43:59,784
That's my problem.

710
00:43:59,784 --> 00:44:04,784
No, I just wanted to make it clear that I am definitely eager to get a working solution.

711
00:44:04,784 --> 00:44:09,784
So my plan – I have a web wallet that's up now.

712
00:44:09,784 --> 00:44:10,784
And it was almost working.

713
00:44:10,784 --> 00:44:11,784
I was trying to do a test.

714
00:44:11,784 --> 00:44:15,784
And that's when I realized the network – I was off the network.

715
00:44:15,784 --> 00:44:18,784
Yeah, and I'd just like to reiterate that that is kind of unusual.

716
00:44:18,784 --> 00:44:21,784
That's mostly because of the bug hunt.

717
00:44:21,784 --> 00:44:23,784
And we ran it for a whole year without –

718
00:44:23,784 --> 00:44:25,784
And I just kind of thought – I just thought, whatever.

719
00:44:25,784 --> 00:44:26,784
We'll just reset it.

720
00:44:26,784 --> 00:44:27,784
Who cares?

721
00:44:27,784 --> 00:44:30,784
But, yeah, when we reset it, we also have to reactivate the sidechain.

722
00:44:30,784 --> 00:44:35,784
So when it turns back on, it looks like nothing is there at all until like two days pass or something.

723
00:44:35,784 --> 00:44:37,784
And then it kind of comes back.

724
00:44:37,784 --> 00:44:38,784
So it's mostly back now.

725
00:44:38,784 --> 00:44:43,784
Once I saw that the block had reset back to wherever I saw it, like 200.

726
00:44:43,784 --> 00:44:45,784
Until yesterday, it was like 200-something or 100.

727
00:44:45,784 --> 00:44:51,784
So I realized it had been reset, but I couldn't tell if the Cygnet challenge had changed.

728
00:44:51,784 --> 00:44:53,784
So I was just like, why isn't it working?

729
00:44:53,784 --> 00:44:54,784
But that's so cool.

730
00:44:55,784 --> 00:44:57,784
But the other thing I was going to say was –

731
00:44:57,784 --> 00:45:11,784
Yeah, so my full, I guess, ambition here is to get a working demo between BitAssets and Thunder.

732
00:45:11,784 --> 00:45:14,784
So my other issue is that those are now gone.

733
00:45:14,784 --> 00:45:16,784
So what's going on?

734
00:45:16,784 --> 00:45:22,784
I think that's what I tried to say before, which is we have to reactivate them because it starts the blockchain over.

735
00:45:22,784 --> 00:45:25,784
And then BIP300 lets you basically activate.

736
00:45:25,784 --> 00:45:27,784
But they should be back now, I think.

737
00:45:27,784 --> 00:45:34,784
So that's a really interesting question because that kind of would answer maybe something I'd probably ask you maybe a couple weeks from now.

738
00:45:34,784 --> 00:45:40,784
Because I am interested in launching at least on a testnet sidechain.

739
00:45:40,784 --> 00:45:48,784
Again, really, I want to learn about how this would work because I feel very strongly about the opportunities.

740
00:45:48,784 --> 00:45:50,784
But yeah, so that's the question.

741
00:45:50,784 --> 00:45:59,784
Because how do you actually launch a sidechain, even on the Cygnet?

742
00:45:59,784 --> 00:46:04,784
I think BitWindow had a menu for it.

743
00:46:04,784 --> 00:46:08,784
But is it like a – can I do it through the command line?

744
00:46:08,784 --> 00:46:10,784
Is that possible through the command line?

745
00:46:10,784 --> 00:46:16,784
Basically impossible without – because this is the way Cygnet works.

746
00:46:16,784 --> 00:46:17,784
So just – I don't know.

747
00:46:17,784 --> 00:46:21,784
This is a lot of – we're discussing a lot of different things that may be confusing to people.

748
00:46:21,784 --> 00:46:25,784
But that's – you have to just embrace the confusion and enjoy it, anyone who's listening.

749
00:46:25,784 --> 00:46:26,784
Just embrace the confusion.

750
00:46:26,784 --> 00:46:28,784
It's a wonderful confusion.

751
00:46:28,784 --> 00:46:35,784
Cygnet was invented by Bitcoin Core because we used to have this thing, Testnet, but it sucked.

752
00:46:35,784 --> 00:46:43,784
And it was a fake Bitcoin network in parallel, and it was very easy to mine blocks because none of it was worth any money.

753
00:46:44,784 --> 00:46:51,784
But Cygnet was a giant – because people could just mine trillions of blocks on a whim, and then there would be no blocks.

754
00:46:51,784 --> 00:46:55,784
And so Testnet was kind of a waste of time, and it kind of still is.

755
00:46:55,784 --> 00:46:57,784
And it has some utility.

756
00:46:57,784 --> 00:47:01,784
But then there was also this thing, RegTest, for people just testing on their own computer,

757
00:47:01,784 --> 00:47:06,784
where they just want to see if their code runs, basically, which is very, very useful.

758
00:47:06,784 --> 00:47:12,784
But you don't have any other people interacting with you, so you don't know – you kind of can see on one computer.

759
00:47:12,784 --> 00:47:14,784
So Cygnet kind of splits the difference.

760
00:47:14,784 --> 00:47:18,784
And with Cygnet, one person is just mining – one person has a magic key.

761
00:47:18,784 --> 00:47:21,784
They sign a block every 10 minutes.

762
00:47:21,784 --> 00:47:26,784
So it's kind of bizarre because Drivechain is supposed to be this decentralized miner-governed thing.

763
00:47:26,784 --> 00:47:31,784
But when it's combined with Cygnet, it's a little bizarre because there's no way you could ever activate

764
00:47:31,784 --> 00:47:36,784
without asking the person who runs the Cygnet server, who is an L2L employee.

765
00:47:37,784 --> 00:47:43,784
So if you just message me, then if you – you have other options.

766
00:47:43,784 --> 00:47:47,784
One option is you can post in CoinNews, if you saw, in Bitwindow.

767
00:47:47,784 --> 00:47:50,784
If you can use coins and send a message there.

768
00:47:50,784 --> 00:47:52,784
I actually tried to implement that into the wallet.

769
00:47:52,784 --> 00:47:55,784
I might actually be able to get that working.

770
00:47:55,784 --> 00:47:57,784
So that's actually really cool.

771
00:47:57,784 --> 00:48:01,784
Yeah, so it's like if you spend coins, you can send a message that everyone will see.

772
00:48:01,784 --> 00:48:02,784
Yeah, yeah.

773
00:48:02,784 --> 00:48:05,784
It's like a paid broadcast system. It's really cool.

774
00:48:05,784 --> 00:48:08,784
I think it's a super cool idea. It's super cosmetic.

775
00:48:08,784 --> 00:48:10,784
And it doesn't even – it's not a soft fork. It's not anything.

776
00:48:10,784 --> 00:48:12,784
It's just – yeah, anyone could do it.

777
00:48:12,784 --> 00:48:15,784
That would surprise me. I was like, this is current news.

778
00:48:15,784 --> 00:48:17,784
I was like, this is actually working.

779
00:48:17,784 --> 00:48:19,784
Yeah, it's really, really neat.

780
00:48:19,784 --> 00:48:24,784
And then it's funny when you re-download the blockchain, it scrolls through the old news sometimes.

781
00:48:24,784 --> 00:48:25,784
I think we changed it maybe so it doesn't.

782
00:48:25,784 --> 00:48:29,784
But it used to time warp through the old news in Bitwindow.

783
00:48:29,784 --> 00:48:30,784
It's kind of pretty cool.

784
00:48:30,784 --> 00:48:34,784
Wait, so then I hate to just kind of take up too much of your time here.

785
00:48:34,784 --> 00:48:36,784
So like Bitwindow now, how do I fix that?

786
00:48:36,784 --> 00:48:40,784
Because that's the other – that's how I'm using to test my wallet is Bitwindow.

787
00:48:40,784 --> 00:48:42,784
So how do I actually update that?

788
00:48:42,784 --> 00:48:46,784
Because I did download a new version, and it did work, the new version.

789
00:48:46,784 --> 00:48:48,784
We're usually pretty good.

790
00:48:48,784 --> 00:48:52,784
Bitwindow is more of like the move fast and break things.

791
00:48:52,784 --> 00:48:59,784
So that one is likely to break, but it's also very likely to be fixed in like 12 hours of it breaking.

792
00:48:59,784 --> 00:49:01,784
So that one's like the fun.

793
00:49:01,784 --> 00:49:05,784
Do you hard code the Cygnet challenge into it?

794
00:49:05,784 --> 00:49:08,784
You know, actually, this went a little bit back and forth.

795
00:49:08,784 --> 00:49:16,784
But what I think – my preference, and I can't remember if we still do this or not because we traded it back and forth.

796
00:49:16,784 --> 00:49:22,784
Bitwindow, it's capable of using the command line arguments, of course, which it usually does.

797
00:49:22,784 --> 00:49:26,784
But then it's also capable of writing the conf file.

798
00:49:26,784 --> 00:49:29,784
And I think that's a little more transparent.

799
00:49:29,784 --> 00:49:32,784
So it may write the file, or maybe it doesn't.

800
00:49:32,784 --> 00:49:36,784
But if you have a conf file, it will obviously override.

801
00:49:36,784 --> 00:49:38,784
So I will –

802
00:49:38,784 --> 00:49:39,784
If you want to run it on like –

803
00:49:39,784 --> 00:49:43,784
And then just to let you know, like the issue I'm having, because it prompted me for the new version.

804
00:49:43,784 --> 00:49:44,784
I downloaded a new version.

805
00:49:44,784 --> 00:49:50,784
The new version isn't accepting the mnemonic, the seed phrase, so it won't go past the seed phrase.

806
00:49:50,784 --> 00:49:53,784
So I have to fall back to the last version I'm waiting to download.

807
00:49:53,784 --> 00:49:56,784
So that's something I'm –

808
00:49:56,784 --> 00:49:58,784
It just nothing happens, or what happens?

809
00:49:58,784 --> 00:50:00,784
Yeah, I just hit it, and nothing happens.

810
00:50:00,784 --> 00:50:03,784
And then like the other version, it goes through right away.

811
00:50:03,784 --> 00:50:05,784
It turns green, and then I'm good.

812
00:50:05,784 --> 00:50:08,784
So I know how it works, but it doesn't work on the –

813
00:50:08,784 --> 00:50:10,784
And it's on the Mac.

814
00:50:10,784 --> 00:50:12,784
I think – yeah, it's on the Mac.

815
00:50:12,784 --> 00:50:15,784
You say the Mac one works the best.

816
00:50:15,784 --> 00:50:16,784
The Mac one is great.

817
00:50:16,784 --> 00:50:18,784
I have it on all platforms just because I'm testing.

818
00:50:18,784 --> 00:50:24,784
But on the Mac is where I've seen issues.

819
00:50:24,784 --> 00:50:26,784
Okay, I'm going in, and I'm updating the –

820
00:50:26,784 --> 00:50:31,784
I didn't think – I made the – I personally made the dev.txt, but I thought –

821
00:50:31,784 --> 00:50:36,784
I was like – I guess I had never gotten any feedback of anyone using it.

822
00:50:36,784 --> 00:50:38,784
So it's nice to hear that you used it.

823
00:50:38,784 --> 00:50:39,784
Maybe other people did.

824
00:50:39,784 --> 00:50:42,784
That's why I was kind of like – I despaired of putting the thing.

825
00:50:42,784 --> 00:50:47,784
But I'm changing now the Cygnet challenge, and now I'm uploading it.

826
00:50:47,784 --> 00:50:48,784
Oh, cool.

827
00:50:49,784 --> 00:50:56,784
I really, like, literally was just about to test, like send coins.

828
00:50:56,784 --> 00:50:57,784
And I was like, it's not working.

829
00:50:57,784 --> 00:50:59,784
I was like, what's going on?

830
00:50:59,784 --> 00:51:02,784
I was like, I did all this, and it's not even working.

831
00:51:02,784 --> 00:51:05,784
So, yeah, if I can actually get it to test and, like, get it working, that would be really cool.

832
00:51:05,784 --> 00:51:07,784
I'd be really happy about that.

833
00:51:07,784 --> 00:51:08,784
So thank you.

834
00:51:08,784 --> 00:51:09,784
Okay, absolutely.

835
00:51:09,784 --> 00:51:10,784
Then we had two other people request.

836
00:51:10,784 --> 00:51:11,784
I'm going to try to add them.

837
00:51:11,784 --> 00:51:13,784
I think JK was the next person.

838
00:51:13,784 --> 00:51:16,784
Dev.txt, that's just in which repo?

839
00:51:21,784 --> 00:51:24,784
Sorry, when I go into the menu to bring people up, I can't.

840
00:51:24,784 --> 00:51:29,784
So then it's just drivechain.info slash dev.txt.

841
00:51:29,784 --> 00:51:32,784
So it's just a file.

842
00:51:32,784 --> 00:51:33,784
But it is linked.

843
00:51:33,784 --> 00:51:38,784
I think if you go to, like, node.drivechain.info or node.cygnet, there's, like, a link to it.

844
00:51:38,784 --> 00:51:40,784
So there's some way of it being found.

845
00:51:40,784 --> 00:51:45,784
But it's, I don't know, you know.

846
00:51:45,784 --> 00:51:47,784
Anyway, I will.

847
00:51:47,784 --> 00:51:48,784
What Mac?

848
00:51:48,784 --> 00:51:50,784
Just curious as to what version of Mac you're running.

849
00:51:50,784 --> 00:51:55,784
If I could try to replicate the bug groups, perhaps on my own.

850
00:51:55,784 --> 00:51:57,784
Yeah, give me two seconds.

851
00:51:57,784 --> 00:51:58,784
Let me bring it up.

852
00:51:58,784 --> 00:52:00,784
I'll put it in the chat.

853
00:52:00,784 --> 00:52:01,784
Thanks.

854
00:52:01,784 --> 00:52:02,784
That's all.

855
00:52:02,784 --> 00:52:03,784
That's all.

856
00:52:03,784 --> 00:52:04,784
I just want to see if I can replicate it.

857
00:52:04,784 --> 00:52:05,784
Thanks.

858
00:52:05,784 --> 00:52:06,784
Bye.

859
00:52:06,784 --> 00:52:11,784
It's very strange that so early on, and for such a basic thing, importing the seed phrase,

860
00:52:11,784 --> 00:52:19,784
which is, like, you know, whatever, just like this little translation, that is unusual.

861
00:52:19,784 --> 00:52:20,784
So that's a good bug to find.

862
00:52:20,784 --> 00:52:21,784
So that's great.

863
00:52:21,784 --> 00:52:28,784
We'll find it.

864
00:52:28,784 --> 00:52:35,784
But yeah, JK, I think, was next in line, theoretically.

865
00:52:35,784 --> 00:52:43,784
Yeah, I think around, I was just wondering into the future, like, where you saw a lot of the development going,

866
00:52:43,784 --> 00:52:46,784
like being produced by, like, specific firms who, like, specialize in it.

867
00:52:46,784 --> 00:52:50,784
Or if it's like, like, I know at one point there was theorized that, I guess, like,

868
00:52:50,784 --> 00:52:58,784
mining companies would sort of take on that role of wanting to be development as well.

869
00:52:58,784 --> 00:53:03,784
I don't know if you have any more ideas to expand on.

870
00:53:04,784 --> 00:53:09,784
The first idea is there's a lot of stuff that people are doing for free that is like being gatekept,

871
00:53:09,784 --> 00:53:15,784
being taken from BTC and sort of blocked out.

872
00:53:15,784 --> 00:53:19,784
So let's not turn away any of the free stuff.

873
00:53:19,784 --> 00:53:21,784
We want that.

874
00:53:21,784 --> 00:53:26,784
And then the second point is miners would be making more money.

875
00:53:26,784 --> 00:53:33,784
It's theoretically possible to imagine a situation where miners invest in software development.

876
00:53:33,784 --> 00:53:36,784
Then they don't need to get a return.

877
00:53:36,784 --> 00:53:41,784
The return comes in directly in the form of transaction, increased transaction fees.

878
00:53:41,784 --> 00:53:49,784
So that can be, theoretically, it might be the mining pools because they're more like specialists.

879
00:53:49,784 --> 00:53:55,784
We've seen, though, the mining pools we actually see, I think, are pretty disappointing.

880
00:53:55,784 --> 00:54:05,784
They don't seem, I mean, with the exception of like Marathon has built out this thing where they have like a media arm and they have like,

881
00:54:05,784 --> 00:54:10,784
they have like Isabel, they have like specialists like looking into things like reporting on things.

882
00:54:10,784 --> 00:54:16,784
And Luxor, you know, Nick, the CEO of Luxor, he like looks into things, he knows about things.

883
00:54:16,784 --> 00:54:21,784
They attend like ordinal parties and things like that.

884
00:54:22,784 --> 00:54:25,784
And so there's some exceptions.

885
00:54:25,784 --> 00:54:33,784
But mostly, I think there's a lot of just confusion and not a lot of collaboration.

886
00:54:33,784 --> 00:54:37,784
Not a lot of a lot of people distrust.

887
00:54:37,784 --> 00:54:40,784
You know, bid main and pool, I suppose.

888
00:54:40,784 --> 00:54:45,784
Obviously, Ocean is kind of a weird dark sheep.

889
00:54:45,784 --> 00:54:47,784
A dark horse, black sheep.

890
00:54:47,784 --> 00:54:48,784
I mixed a metaphor there.

891
00:54:48,784 --> 00:54:53,784
But so we haven't really seen like them form.

892
00:54:53,784 --> 00:54:56,784
Remember when Michael Saylor tried to form a mining council?

893
00:54:56,784 --> 00:54:58,784
But nothing came of any of that.

894
00:54:58,784 --> 00:55:09,784
So like sometimes people, OK, like I remember like Pierre, I don't remember who he was working for Foundry.

895
00:55:09,784 --> 00:55:11,784
I literally don't even remember.

896
00:55:11,784 --> 00:55:18,784
But it was something like they were trying to produce like stuff to fight propaganda because mining is accused of being bad for the environment.

897
00:55:18,784 --> 00:55:26,784
But we haven't really seen like a coordinated effort from mining pools to like advance the cause of Bitcoin.

898
00:55:26,784 --> 00:55:29,784
Mostly they either.

899
00:55:29,784 --> 00:55:35,784
I mean, they mostly seem kind of passive or even inept or counterproductive.

900
00:55:35,784 --> 00:55:39,784
So I hate to be so critical, but it doesn't seem as though.

901
00:55:39,784 --> 00:55:46,784
So, yeah, the idea that they're suddenly going to become like paying for software or something.

902
00:55:46,784 --> 00:55:53,784
I don't know, like supporting pure research, like they could be like the Carnegie's or they could be like Medici family.

903
00:55:53,784 --> 00:55:57,784
Like, you know, like I don't know, like I'm not sure if that's going to happen.

904
00:55:57,784 --> 00:56:02,784
One good thing is it does seem like just purely for the prestige.

905
00:56:02,784 --> 00:56:06,784
You do have a lot of software being written just for the love of it.

906
00:56:06,784 --> 00:56:11,784
I think the bigger issue is, can we remove the barriers?

907
00:56:11,784 --> 00:56:19,784
Like where if someone sees a problem, someone says, you know what, this line of code should be more like this.

908
00:56:19,784 --> 00:56:21,784
Remove the barrier.

909
00:56:21,784 --> 00:56:32,784
I suppose for the like when there is the fork, will there be automatically like the existing sidechains like set up on it?

910
00:56:32,784 --> 00:56:38,784
Or are you going to go through the proposed process of like sending a message in the Coinbase and stuff like that?

911
00:56:38,784 --> 00:56:44,784
That's a very good question. I would have to go through the real process, I suppose.

912
00:56:44,784 --> 00:56:53,784
I think it would be kind of mitigated by the the fact that the difficulty will be very low and a bunch of blocks are just going to fly forward.

913
00:56:53,784 --> 00:57:03,784
So that may either make it worse or better, because I think the smart thing might be to.

914
00:57:03,784 --> 00:57:09,784
Like code in that they must activate like you have like an additional soft fork.

915
00:57:09,784 --> 00:57:19,784
Like thing where we just say like you must signal for these seven sidechains that would ensure that they all even though they take two thousand blocks, they would like all activate the same day.

916
00:57:19,784 --> 00:57:27,784
And it could be like it would just be like a one time thing. So that would maybe be the best of both worlds.

917
00:57:27,784 --> 00:57:36,784
Because it could also be like one risk whenever you do like this proof of work, mining and all this stuff with a slow 10 minute block time.

918
00:57:36,784 --> 00:57:42,784
One risk is that the difficulty overshoots and then we have to have like 30 minute blocks.

919
00:57:42,784 --> 00:57:48,784
In which case it'll take it won't take two weeks, but it'll take six weeks to adjust back down.

920
00:57:48,784 --> 00:57:52,784
That is a risk. I think that's probably the biggest risk so far.

921
00:57:52,784 --> 00:57:59,784
Which is not that big of a risk because you can always like rent hash rate and you can make those things you do like if it's really, really bad.

922
00:58:00,784 --> 00:58:08,784
Hypothetically, this was discussed like a few spaces ago. You could just put out a new client and you say, OK, we lower the difficulty right now.

923
00:58:08,784 --> 00:58:13,784
And you this this would these would not be these have nothing to do with the long run fate.

924
00:58:13,784 --> 00:58:21,784
This just has to do with launching a new proof of work chain where you don't really know what the difficulty should be.

925
00:58:21,784 --> 00:58:28,784
So these are just related to like starting it up. And it's kind of like once it's up, it wouldn't have these giant oscillations.

926
00:58:30,784 --> 00:58:45,784
But the point is, since there are probably lots and lots of blocks found very quickly at the beginning, followed by a period of more, more normal 10 minute blocks or slower.

927
00:58:46,784 --> 00:58:50,784
You would probably just race right through those as long as everyone signaled.

928
00:58:51,784 --> 00:58:58,784
So, yeah, but I think there'll be a lot of chaos at the launch, but hopefully it won't be too bad.

929
00:58:58,784 --> 00:59:22,784
The the vision or the the I don't know what the word would be, but the like the this project is is a long term like it's betting on transaction fees in the long run.

930
00:59:23,784 --> 00:59:31,784
And if that just grows, if we just are in a situation where the transaction fees grow 10 percent a year, it will eventually.

931
00:59:36,784 --> 00:59:37,784
Overtake.

932
00:59:39,164 --> 00:59:41,444
All other coins, I think it would.

933
00:59:41,444 --> 00:59:43,364
So, you know, it's like it's not.

934
00:59:45,284 --> 00:59:48,204
BTC has chosen to do a bunch of weird things.

935
00:59:48,204 --> 00:59:54,164
It's kind of hard to explain them all, but BTC has chosen to not only keep the block size small.

936
00:59:55,403 --> 01:00:05,124
But they've also chosen not to be interested that much in merge mining and to reject all attempts to get miners more money as misinterpreting that as MEV.

937
01:00:05,124 --> 01:00:07,764
And there's a lot of weird things that they have done.

938
01:00:08,924 --> 01:00:15,764
And in BTC and as a result, the mining revenues will probably be very, very low for a long time.

939
01:00:15,764 --> 01:00:25,443
And it'll eventually be possible that the the increase in transaction fees, if they're growing geometrically and a rival chain.

940
01:00:26,643 --> 01:00:34,323
You know, as long as they're growing geometrically, it's a mathematical certainty that the mining revenue will increase in the two week period by much more than.

941
01:00:35,323 --> 01:00:49,964
People are even getting in and in BTC world, so that would be like very, very bad for BTC, if that so that's kind of like I would hope that people would just try to the the chaotic launch.

942
01:00:51,803 --> 01:00:56,644
That's part of, you know, what keeps it decentralized, you know, that's kind of what keeps it punk.

943
01:00:57,083 --> 01:01:03,803
That's going to be so don't worry if it's if it has a weird launch, which it might.

944
01:01:05,123 --> 01:01:13,803
And but I think what I think is likely to happen is we'll launch it with like try to activate all the chains like in the next block.

945
01:01:15,163 --> 01:01:25,763
Maybe we'll like launch it like, you know, it'll be like the next two blocks, like they have them all proposed and whatever will be like kind of like it's kind of like a bit 148.

946
01:01:27,083 --> 01:01:30,363
Helps SegWit activate via bit nine.

947
01:01:30,884 --> 01:01:40,163
I don't know if this is going to make any sense to anyone, but now there might be some it might be weird at the beginning, but I'm just saying it's going to be fun.

948
01:01:41,123 --> 01:01:46,043
Don't be too dismayed by just adjust your expectations a little bit.

949
01:01:46,083 --> 01:01:49,443
It will be it's it will be fun.

950
01:01:49,443 --> 01:01:52,563
And that's what keeps it decentralized.

951
01:01:52,563 --> 01:01:53,203
It's going to be great.

952
01:01:54,003 --> 01:01:56,884
So we also had a snake.

953
01:01:58,884 --> 01:01:59,363
Welcome.

954
01:02:00,404 --> 01:02:05,764
I mean, unless JK, unless you want to ask about or you had a reaction to that, or you want to say something else?

955
01:02:07,124 --> 01:02:20,163
No, not not particularly, but it seems, I suppose, somewhat unfortunate, maybe that these pools and miners are not as participatory, but you know, it's just kind of how it is.

956
01:02:20,163 --> 01:02:28,324
Yeah, in BTC, it's possible that it's like a chicken and egg cultural problem where they've gotten used to acting this way for so long.

957
01:02:29,443 --> 01:02:35,363
And in fact, they were trained during the block size war and during after and immediately afterwards, they were sort of trained to have no opinion.

958
01:02:36,163 --> 01:02:41,764
So it's possible we start over with a new culture.

959
01:02:42,324 --> 01:02:49,844
Culture that, you know, I don't know, that may also be self-perpetuating, but I do not know.

960
01:02:54,003 --> 01:02:55,363
OK, this snake.

961
01:02:58,563 --> 01:03:08,404
OK, well, CREV23 wants to speak again, but it's just going to be more about how I mean, you can say it if you like, because you're welcome to say it.

962
01:03:08,484 --> 01:03:15,283
But we already know it's just going to say about like how unlimited L1 blocks are the best and et cetera.

963
01:03:16,803 --> 01:03:21,443
So it's OK, you know, it's not really up for us to define these things.

964
01:03:21,443 --> 01:03:23,124
It's for the market to decide.

965
01:03:23,124 --> 01:03:33,764
I think that probably the last 15 years of Bitcoin have been us arguing with Satoshi that, you know, they were trying to say, oh, you didn't do it right.

966
01:03:34,244 --> 01:03:35,203
He did it right.

967
01:03:35,684 --> 01:03:47,203
And everything that we've come up with since he had a one megabyte of the new structures and stuff, they all end up failing because they're they're meant to be gamed.

968
01:03:47,203 --> 01:03:49,764
They're not based on objective proofs.

969
01:03:49,764 --> 01:03:53,363
They're they're usually set up on subjective proofs.

970
01:03:54,163 --> 01:04:01,603
And it's an objective fact that Satoshi installed the one megabyte block size limit and then and then left.

971
01:04:01,684 --> 01:04:03,363
He did not. He did not.

972
01:04:03,923 --> 01:04:09,603
He did not create the Internet's perfect money and then throw a fucking cog in it that fucks it up.

973
01:04:09,603 --> 01:04:11,363
I just refuse to believe that.

974
01:04:12,083 --> 01:04:28,564
Personally, I believe that he was killed not long after the project started and that somebody else posing as him introduced the block size limit because I've never heard that you brought up the bandwidth issue with regard to blocks.

975
01:04:29,203 --> 01:04:34,803
Why is it that there isn't the same amount of concentration on hashing power?

976
01:04:34,803 --> 01:04:39,524
Because, you know, it's like not everybody can afford a big old hash farm.

977
01:04:39,524 --> 01:04:44,004
So, you know, we should be able to keep mining open to everybody.

978
01:04:44,004 --> 01:04:46,883
You know, we gave a shit about that with bandwidth, right?

979
01:04:46,883 --> 01:04:49,524
Then why don't we give a shit about that with hashing power?

980
01:04:50,404 --> 01:04:51,363
It's a good question.

981
01:04:51,363 --> 01:05:02,724
And the answer is the full node cost has to be paid by everyone in order to run a node and measure confirmations for the money they receive.

982
01:05:03,603 --> 01:05:08,323
Whereas with mining, it doesn't matter if you mine or not.

983
01:05:08,323 --> 01:05:09,844
The network doesn't matter to you.

984
01:05:10,564 --> 01:05:18,404
And it doesn't necessarily matter if the network is all mined by people who all hate each other or even are conspiring against you.

985
01:05:18,404 --> 01:05:28,803
As Satoshi says in the white paper, even if there's a huge conspiracy, it's more profitable for the person who just advanced the chain than it is to double spend, usually.

986
01:05:28,803 --> 01:05:30,803
And so even in that extreme case where…

987
01:05:31,444 --> 01:05:34,964
So basically, the idea is that the cost…

988
01:05:36,244 --> 01:05:45,444
We cannot be in the business of caring about how much mining costs because actually every upward difficulty adjustment increases miners' costs.

989
01:05:45,444 --> 01:05:57,923
So the whole reason that we have proof-of-work at all, the whole way that proof-of-work works is it translates the costs into lower hash rate and 51% attack deterrence.

990
01:05:58,483 --> 01:06:07,603
So we actually want mining revenues to be high and that as the difficulty adjusts up following that, we want mining costs to be high.

991
01:06:07,603 --> 01:06:16,803
However, because we get a benefit, we get a benefit when the mining costs are high, the cost of 51% attack and denial-of-service attack, the network is also high.

992
01:06:17,763 --> 01:06:25,844
But there's no direct parallel benefit when the node cost is high other than, of course, you have more block space for people to use.

993
01:06:25,844 --> 01:06:26,883
But these are different people.

994
01:06:28,004 --> 01:06:36,244
So if the node cost is too high and no one can run a node, the network will just disappear and die off and enter an unrecoverable state.

995
01:06:36,643 --> 01:06:45,363
But if the mining costs are too high, some miners will leave, miners will exit, and then the difficulty will fall.

996
01:06:45,363 --> 01:06:49,763
And so that will actually… that has a feedback loop to take care of itself.

997
01:06:49,763 --> 01:06:55,923
Whereas if the node cost accelerates too much, the node costs pile up, they accumulate forever.

998
01:06:56,483 --> 01:07:03,763
It's just like that… it's like that Futurama joke about they would just drop a giant ice cube in the ocean.

999
01:07:04,323 --> 01:07:13,363
But because the greenhouse gases continue to accumulate, we have to drop a bigger and bigger ice cube each time, thus solving the problem once and for all.

1000
01:07:13,363 --> 01:07:19,124
And that's the joke, is that it's a permanent, worsening problem.

1001
01:07:19,844 --> 01:07:28,803
It's a different type of thing than… the difficulty adjustment and the miners' costs is a little bit more like steering a car left and right, or like moving an elevator at a speed or something.

1002
01:07:29,763 --> 01:07:38,964
It's like easier to control and move and tune, whereas the node costs are a ticking time bomb.

1003
01:07:38,964 --> 01:07:42,083
So that is a very important difference between the two.

1004
01:07:43,444 --> 01:07:47,684
In order to mine at all, someone somewhere needs to run a node.

1005
01:07:47,684 --> 01:07:51,124
There's all this about SPV, you can free ride off of someone else's node.

1006
01:07:52,083 --> 01:07:54,803
But there has to be someone, someone out there running the node.

1007
01:07:55,524 --> 01:08:00,724
And that is why, even to mine, it's prerequisite that someone pays the node cost.

1008
01:08:01,923 --> 01:08:04,883
So these are the many differences between those two.

1009
01:08:05,684 --> 01:08:24,724
But you're right, a lot of my critics, including a top critic, Peter Todd, he's, I think, also super confused about this, where he would say he's really, really worried about the effect on mining costs because he thinks these L2s will pay so much money that miners will feel bad if they miss out on it.

1010
01:08:24,724 --> 01:08:27,044
So they'll be obligated to run the mining software.

1011
01:08:27,044 --> 01:08:29,524
And this is supposedly going to be very expensive.

1012
01:08:29,524 --> 01:08:35,203
So they're going to get paid so much money that they're going to lose all their money, is part of his convoluted argument.

1013
01:08:35,203 --> 01:08:42,164
And then I asked him on stage at TabConf, I think maybe in 2023, I said, hey, why don't we remove all of the upward?

1014
01:08:42,164 --> 01:08:46,484
I said, are you in favor of removing the upward difficulty adjustments from blocks?

1015
01:08:47,683 --> 01:08:50,404
Because those are by far the biggest contributor to mining costs.

1016
01:08:50,404 --> 01:08:52,243
But of course, he knows he can't say that.

1017
01:08:52,243 --> 01:08:55,443
So I think he was just realized how confused he was.

1018
01:08:56,323 --> 01:09:01,524
And unfortunately, we didn't shine enough light on just how poorly he thought through all that.

1019
01:09:01,524 --> 01:09:03,044
And this is not what he's talking about at all.

1020
01:09:03,044 --> 01:09:05,443
But yeah, I think this is very important.

1021
01:09:06,083 --> 01:09:08,883
Your theory about Satoshi being killed and replaced.

1022
01:09:08,883 --> 01:09:18,003
You know, I don't believe that because Satoshi was not only was he a great designer and coder, but he was a really good writer.

1023
01:09:18,003 --> 01:09:24,964
And that's just very hard to believe that the guy killed and replaced him and then kept posting on Bitcoin Talk.

1024
01:09:25,844 --> 01:09:27,763
I suppose it's possible.

1025
01:09:28,484 --> 01:09:30,243
But I think that's a little far-fetched.

1026
01:09:31,443 --> 01:09:32,323
But it is interesting.

1027
01:09:32,323 --> 01:09:34,883
I've never heard anyone argue that before, that he was killed.

1028
01:09:34,883 --> 01:09:43,203
And then the version of him that showed up, or whoever is impersonating him, put the one megabyte block size limit.

1029
01:09:43,763 --> 01:09:47,364
And did all these other answers, all these other questions on the forum.

1030
01:09:48,323 --> 01:09:50,804
Complained about Wikileaks and stuff like that.

1031
01:09:50,804 --> 01:09:51,924
That's very intriguing.

1032
01:09:52,563 --> 01:09:54,323
But that's a very interesting point of view.

1033
01:09:59,524 --> 01:10:02,003
We have a GB with a hand up.

1034
01:10:02,003 --> 01:10:03,364
So we can go to GB.

1035
01:10:04,563 --> 01:10:05,604
Hello, can you hear me OK?

1036
01:10:06,724 --> 01:10:07,364
I can hear you.

1037
01:10:07,364 --> 01:10:08,003
Yes.

1038
01:10:08,003 --> 01:10:08,724
Perfect.

1039
01:10:08,724 --> 01:10:10,563
I just had two questions.

1040
01:10:10,563 --> 01:10:13,203
The first is on Drivechains and the second was about eCash.

1041
01:10:14,164 --> 01:10:20,883
On Drivechains, what is the minimum number of sidechains that it could have had?

1042
01:10:20,883 --> 01:10:23,604
I think it has 128 or whatever.

1043
01:10:23,604 --> 01:10:26,164
And it has to be a multiple of eight or something like that.

1044
01:10:26,164 --> 01:10:26,883
What does that mean?

1045
01:10:28,563 --> 01:10:29,364
We mean maximum.

1046
01:10:31,844 --> 01:10:32,724
Oh, OK.

1047
01:10:34,003 --> 01:10:36,323
What is the minimum number of sidechains?

1048
01:10:39,044 --> 01:10:41,123
Because the max number is what?

1049
01:10:41,123 --> 01:10:41,844
128?

1050
01:10:43,524 --> 01:10:44,323
256.

1051
01:10:44,323 --> 01:10:45,364
But it's not really.

1052
01:10:45,364 --> 01:10:50,964
You could just add like a separate set of 256 and you could have Drivechains of drivechains.

1053
01:10:50,964 --> 01:10:54,003
So there's no like ethical limit, really.

1054
01:10:54,003 --> 01:10:55,364
Is there a minimum?

1055
01:10:55,364 --> 01:10:56,003
There's no minimum.

1056
01:10:57,763 --> 01:10:58,484
Sorry.

1057
01:10:58,484 --> 01:11:00,083
Yeah, I phrased it wrong.

1058
01:11:00,083 --> 01:11:05,044
Is there a way to move the max from 256 down to eight, for example?

1059
01:11:06,563 --> 01:11:10,243
Well, it's kind of the answer is yes.

1060
01:11:10,243 --> 01:11:13,443
But the answer is also that the question doesn't make that much sense.

1061
01:11:13,443 --> 01:11:20,003
Because if you think about it, in my view, BIP300 is a soft fork.

1062
01:11:21,203 --> 01:11:25,763
And in my view, miners can add a new soft fork whenever they want of any kind.

1063
01:11:25,763 --> 01:11:27,924
BIP300 or CTV or whatever they want.

1064
01:11:31,044 --> 01:11:35,844
And also the miners activate the L2 Drivechains and they also can ignore them.

1065
01:11:35,844 --> 01:11:40,724
And the miners can also censor all messages related to any L2.

1066
01:11:40,724 --> 01:11:45,123
So it doesn't even matter if it's Drivechain or if it's liquid or if it's ARC.

1067
01:11:45,123 --> 01:11:53,044
They can just say, no deposits, no withdrawals to this L2, effectively shutting it off.

1068
01:11:53,924 --> 01:11:56,404
So it's already my view that miners could create.

1069
01:11:56,964 --> 01:12:00,563
They could create a new BIP300, like BIP300 with a different name.

1070
01:12:00,563 --> 01:12:04,643
Or they could shut off BIP300 and they already add and drop the sidechain.

1071
01:12:04,643 --> 01:12:10,724
So if 51% of miners want there to only be exactly eight Drivechains,

1072
01:12:10,724 --> 01:12:12,243
then that is exactly what will happen.

1073
01:12:12,964 --> 01:12:14,964
So I don't know if that answers your question or not.

1074
01:12:14,964 --> 01:12:16,243
When you say limited.

1075
01:12:16,243 --> 01:12:17,284
Personally, definitely.

1076
01:12:17,284 --> 01:12:23,284
I was just wondering in terms of getting buy-in from the Bitcoin community.

1077
01:12:23,284 --> 01:12:27,683
Because one of the issues you hear is it's going to be an absolute shitshow

1078
01:12:27,683 --> 01:12:30,083
if there's all these sidechains.

1079
01:12:30,083 --> 01:12:33,924
Whereas if, for example, you change it to just be a max of four

1080
01:12:33,924 --> 01:12:39,683
and you're saying it's going to be Z, cash sidechain, five mines,

1081
01:12:40,883 --> 01:12:42,964
and two Thunder sidechains or whatever,

1082
01:12:42,964 --> 01:12:48,164
then maybe you would be able to get buy-in for if it was a lower amount than...

1083
01:12:48,164 --> 01:12:52,964
I know you're losing out on the decentralizing the innovation in Bitcoin and that.

1084
01:12:52,964 --> 01:12:59,604
But did you ever think about bringing down the max number of sidechains?

1085
01:13:00,323 --> 01:13:05,924
Yeah, I agree with you that there could be a flood of very low-quality ones

1086
01:13:05,924 --> 01:13:10,964
which would tarnish the brand somewhat or the idea.

1087
01:13:14,164 --> 01:13:18,404
But I also think that's not so bad.

1088
01:13:18,404 --> 01:13:25,443
Because think about it, either those will all work out

1089
01:13:25,443 --> 01:13:28,404
and there'll be maybe 100 and there'll be chaos.

1090
01:13:28,404 --> 01:13:35,604
But they'll all be paying some fees and it will just work, which I don't expect.

1091
01:13:35,604 --> 01:13:39,443
I think for the Drivechains to work, they have to be paying fees.

1092
01:13:39,443 --> 01:13:44,643
So this is another misconception that I think they have to be healthy businesses

1093
01:13:44,643 --> 01:13:46,003
or healthy organisms.

1094
01:13:47,044 --> 01:13:49,844
Whereas when the other people design like BitVM or something,

1095
01:13:49,844 --> 01:13:51,443
they have some weird other thing.

1096
01:13:51,443 --> 01:13:52,964
Then what happens is they end up with...

1097
01:13:53,123 --> 01:13:57,044
You know, I hate to be critical again of like whatever,

1098
01:13:57,044 --> 01:14:02,003
Citria or of Spiderchain or these other things where it's like...

1099
01:14:03,683 --> 01:14:08,243
They think that they have to build the perfect thing and then get users.

1100
01:14:10,484 --> 01:14:12,243
And then they end up with no users.

1101
01:14:12,243 --> 01:14:15,604
But actually, it's kind of like they're all either the same

1102
01:14:15,604 --> 01:14:18,083
or even one comes before the other where it's like,

1103
01:14:18,083 --> 01:14:20,083
you have to build something that people want.

1104
01:14:20,083 --> 01:14:23,683
And if they want it, then they'll be paying the transaction fee.

1105
01:14:23,683 --> 01:14:24,804
You have something to work with.

1106
01:14:24,804 --> 01:14:28,164
You have a little bit of a strategic currency to play with.

1107
01:14:28,164 --> 01:14:34,724
You know, you have some fuel in the tank you can use to make something happen.

1108
01:14:34,724 --> 01:14:39,284
But it doesn't work at all without the users, without the market demand.

1109
01:14:39,284 --> 01:14:44,804
So either it'll all work out for the tiny, tiny multitude of bad,

1110
01:14:45,044 --> 01:14:47,284
hundred low-quality chains,

1111
01:14:49,123 --> 01:14:53,443
or it'll only work for eight and then there'll be a long tail of failed chains.

1112
01:14:55,364 --> 01:14:58,643
I think people would maybe try to wrap their head around like,

1113
01:15:00,563 --> 01:15:03,524
okay, because it's not like...

1114
01:15:03,524 --> 01:15:05,604
It's like when you drive down the street,

1115
01:15:05,604 --> 01:15:08,484
you only see the businesses that haven't failed.

1116
01:15:09,604 --> 01:15:12,484
But every now and then you see one that is in the process of failing.

1117
01:15:12,484 --> 01:15:13,924
It has a going out of business sale.

1118
01:15:14,883 --> 01:15:17,364
And every now and then your favorite restaurant closes.

1119
01:15:18,563 --> 01:15:25,763
And so we accept that sometimes the businesses fail,

1120
01:15:26,883 --> 01:15:28,724
but we don't see the failed ones because they're gone.

1121
01:15:28,724 --> 01:15:29,844
They just die off.

1122
01:15:30,883 --> 01:15:33,524
And so I don't know, maybe it'd be fine if there was like 100

1123
01:15:33,524 --> 01:15:36,003
and lots of them are dying all the time.

1124
01:15:36,003 --> 01:15:40,003
And people would just accept it as part of something being new.

1125
01:15:40,003 --> 01:15:42,164
But it would make it...

1126
01:15:43,924 --> 01:15:46,243
It might scare people off of the category.

1127
01:15:46,804 --> 01:15:48,724
They might think, oh, some of these Drivechains fail,

1128
01:15:48,724 --> 01:15:50,404
whereas Lightning has never failed.

1129
01:15:54,563 --> 01:15:55,763
Good luck with that, obviously.

1130
01:15:55,763 --> 01:15:59,604
But so it's an interesting idea of could we limit it?

1131
01:15:59,604 --> 01:16:03,924
There was originally Matt Corallo, a BTC guy.

1132
01:16:05,683 --> 01:16:07,284
This is like in 2016.

1133
01:16:07,284 --> 01:16:09,203
No, no, it's like 2019, maybe.

1134
01:16:09,203 --> 01:16:12,083
Yeah, it's like early 2019 or something like that.

1135
01:16:13,364 --> 01:16:16,404
We happened to be talking about this and he was saying something like

1136
01:16:18,164 --> 01:16:23,123
that it should make it so that every time a new Drivechain is added,

1137
01:16:23,123 --> 01:16:27,284
it has to go through the Bitcoin Core review process, the code review.

1138
01:16:28,164 --> 01:16:30,883
And I kind of thought, well...

1139
01:16:30,883 --> 01:16:35,443
And so back then, BIP300 didn't have this thing about how to drop or add the sidechain

1140
01:16:35,443 --> 01:16:38,563
because it was kind of just like how to do the deposits and withdrawals.

1141
01:16:38,563 --> 01:16:39,683
So it didn't even have that part.

1142
01:16:40,243 --> 01:16:43,284
And I kind of thought I had to go the other way because I was kind of saying like

1143
01:16:43,284 --> 01:16:48,963
Drivechain is kind of a bet against Bitcoin Core being rational.

1144
01:16:51,444 --> 01:16:54,883
And Bitcoin Core has become less over the last seven years.

1145
01:16:54,883 --> 01:16:57,044
The rationality has declined, I think.

1146
01:16:57,044 --> 01:17:02,723
So I think we don't really want to be gatekeeping them.

1147
01:17:02,723 --> 01:17:04,003
But yeah, that was another idea.

1148
01:17:04,963 --> 01:17:08,324
The question is, do they want to gatekeep it to ensure the quality is high?

1149
01:17:09,524 --> 01:17:13,524
Or do they want to gatekeep it for their own political advantage?

1150
01:17:15,284 --> 01:17:20,483
Or do they just not understand this idea of you can't make a perfect thing?

1151
01:17:20,483 --> 01:17:26,003
And actually, if you make a perfect thing that has no users, it's also broken anyway.

1152
01:17:26,003 --> 01:17:28,483
So I don't know.

1153
01:17:29,123 --> 01:17:30,243
But that's an interesting question.

1154
01:17:30,243 --> 01:17:33,684
I've never heard that question before about can we limit the...

1155
01:17:33,924 --> 01:17:35,044
Can we make the limits smaller?

1156
01:17:35,684 --> 01:17:39,363
But I think it's an interesting idea.

1157
01:17:42,324 --> 01:17:50,003
And then on the eCash question was, are you reaching out to exchanges to coordinate the

1158
01:17:51,924 --> 01:17:53,204
airdrop, the allocation?

1159
01:17:53,204 --> 01:17:58,324
Or are you just running the code and then it's up to them?

1160
01:17:58,324 --> 01:18:02,963
Because obviously, they will have giant wallets and they will get big allocations.

1161
01:18:02,963 --> 01:18:08,643
Yeah, some of them have hundreds of thousands of coins.

1162
01:18:10,164 --> 01:18:10,643
We are.

1163
01:18:10,643 --> 01:18:16,564
But I think we're like, first, I want to check out the bug situation.

1164
01:18:17,924 --> 01:18:19,684
I want to do things in the proper order.

1165
01:18:19,684 --> 01:18:22,164
So first, I wanted to let everyone know what's happening.

1166
01:18:22,723 --> 01:18:27,524
Then do the bug bounty contest, which we just did the first one only.

1167
01:18:28,324 --> 01:18:31,603
So there could still be many more stuff.

1168
01:18:31,603 --> 01:18:33,444
We wanted to kind of see that.

1169
01:18:33,444 --> 01:18:37,684
So that the software is in a really nice box, wrap it up in a gift wrapped box.

1170
01:18:37,684 --> 01:18:40,643
Because they don't want to go to them and say, oh, hey, we do this thing.

1171
01:18:40,643 --> 01:18:46,003
Then they're going to ask a question like, okay, where is the software?

1172
01:18:46,003 --> 01:18:48,804
And of course, we could give them the software, but I would rather not.

1173
01:18:49,763 --> 01:18:50,404
You know what I mean?

1174
01:18:50,404 --> 01:18:56,883
I would rather have it be really sanded down and really...

1175
01:18:56,883 --> 01:19:02,963
I don't want to be in a situation where we tell them, oh, here's the software.

1176
01:19:02,963 --> 01:19:05,763
And then we have to email them and be like, wait a minute, we updated the software.

1177
01:19:06,483 --> 01:19:08,404
And then they regret interacting with us.

1178
01:19:10,883 --> 01:19:15,763
But yeah, I think we're going to build up from smaller wallets and exchanges

1179
01:19:15,763 --> 01:19:19,524
and swap services that are very supportive of us.

1180
01:19:19,524 --> 01:19:24,404
And we're going to just do smaller ones, then get bigger ones.

1181
01:19:24,404 --> 01:19:36,723
And then maybe 30 days ahead of the fork, we would then take another look at like,

1182
01:19:36,723 --> 01:19:39,843
okay, should we make some kind of huge push for this?

1183
01:19:39,996 --> 01:19:49,996
I think it's better if we make a more general push first and just see like who can get excited about this, who would invest in this, who would be a user of this, who would develop with this.

1184
01:19:49,996 --> 01:19:56,996
So we want to kind of build the general momentum first. So you go to the exchange, say, oh, yeah, there's a bunch of real people, this whole crowd of real people.

1185
01:19:56,996 --> 01:20:04,996
We're going to be excited about this, say nothing of what will happen after it launches. People start asking questions about where they can get their free money.

1186
01:20:04,996 --> 01:20:10,996
I think the integration will be very easy because the L1 is just Bitcoin Core. The L1 lets you send and receive coins.

1187
01:20:10,996 --> 01:20:17,996
So that's what a lot of people will be primarily focused on is either buying coins or selling their coins.

1188
01:20:17,996 --> 01:20:24,996
And so that's the L1 is just Bitcoin Core plus the enforcer, which is right next to it.

1189
01:20:24,996 --> 01:20:33,996
And so I think it should be very, very, very easy for the exchanges to integrate in terms of just their costs like their technical costs.

1190
01:20:33,996 --> 01:20:37,996
So, yeah, we will be doing that, but I want to do it in the proper order is the question.

1191
01:20:37,996 --> 01:20:43,996
You know, it's like, let's get rid of all the bugs first. Let's like, you know, let's get a lot of stuff out of the way first.

1192
01:20:43,996 --> 01:20:51,996
Then we'll get we'll focus on people who we know will be supportive and we'll build it up.

1193
01:20:51,996 --> 01:20:59,996
And. But, yeah, it's already it's already June, so we've got all of June, all of July, and then there'll be.

1194
01:20:59,996 --> 01:21:06,996
You know. Four weeks out. So, yeah, but we will be doing that, yes.

1195
01:21:07,996 --> 01:21:25,996
All right, cheers. And I did one question just came to me there as well, which was is the on eCash to the sidechains require 90 percent of miners to agree to activate them or is it a different mechanism?

1196
01:21:25,996 --> 01:21:35,996
Well, yeah, when I put it in 300, I still think it's a pretty good idea because I was basically just copying.

1197
01:21:35,996 --> 01:21:38,996
We had been nine distinct, nine in BTC for a very long time.

1198
01:21:38,996 --> 01:21:45,996
I was kind of I was kind of riffing off of what Matt Corral had said to me about how this should be like activating a soft fork.

1199
01:21:45,996 --> 01:21:50,996
I think he would never say that now because he knows that all the soft works are dead, dead on arrival.

1200
01:21:50,996 --> 01:21:57,996
So you would never you would never say that now. It'd be interesting to hear is an updated abuse.

1201
01:21:57,996 --> 01:22:02,996
But that was what I was thinking, and I think it's a good idea because.

1202
01:22:02,996 --> 01:22:11,996
In practice, if you have 51 percent, you can get to any other percent by going like scorched earth.

1203
01:22:11,996 --> 01:22:16,996
Orphaning the other forty nine percent. So 51 percent kind of equals 100 percent.

1204
01:22:16,996 --> 01:22:21,996
So if you're playing dirty, then 51 percent is any percent.

1205
01:22:21,996 --> 01:22:25,996
And if you're playing nice, then you're a nice guy, at least.

1206
01:22:25,996 --> 01:22:40,996
So those are the only two scenarios. And so the 90 percent threshold is, I think, a pretty good one because it says if you can't get 90 percent for two weeks, how are you going to get like 51 percent for three months?

1207
01:22:40,996 --> 01:22:52,996
And you want if the sidechain is not something that the miners understand that they will like, you know, if their heart's not in it.

1208
01:22:52,996 --> 01:22:56,996
Then it's probably not safe to use and it's probably not going to be there's not going to be a lot of merge mining.

1209
01:22:57,996 --> 01:23:10,996
So I do think there should be a little bit of a friction, a little bit of a barrier that just says, you know, it takes a little bit of participation to to activate.

1210
01:23:10,996 --> 01:23:16,996
Now, there's a completely different school of thought that says, actually, if you don't do 51 percent, you produce this toxic limbo.

1211
01:23:16,996 --> 01:23:20,996
Like, what if you have 88 percent? Then who exactly do you blame?

1212
01:23:20,996 --> 01:23:28,996
The 12 percent that one of them should change or the 38 percent or the 50 percent?

1213
01:23:28,996 --> 01:23:31,996
Like, no one knows exactly what to do to get what they want.

1214
01:23:32,996 --> 01:23:36,996
But one another reason why you would set the threshold high is.

1215
01:23:38,996 --> 01:23:52,996
From the miners point of view, it doesn't really cost them very much to grant the slot to a new piece of software, like a new chain, because they don't really deal with the chaos.

1216
01:23:53,996 --> 01:23:54,996
And.

1217
01:23:56,996 --> 01:24:05,996
If they, you know, like they just get a bunch of free, it's an opportunity to maybe collect a huge amount of free money versus the cost is very low.

1218
01:24:06,996 --> 01:24:19,996
So in general, they should be more biased than anyone else towards adding the chain, whereas the regular users might be annoyed if they see all the slots fill up with garbage chains, it might be kind of confusing.

1219
01:24:20,996 --> 01:24:25,996
So actually, the miners should be biased towards activating a chain if they're on the fence.

1220
01:24:26,996 --> 01:24:29,996
So it's maybe not the worst thing to keep it at 90 percent.

1221
01:24:30,996 --> 01:24:33,996
I can imagine in like five or 10 years, people just thinking that was a silly decision.

1222
01:24:34,996 --> 01:24:36,996
Why not just make it 51 percent for everything?

1223
01:24:38,996 --> 01:24:41,996
So I'm not sure. The answer is I don't really feel that strongly about it.

1224
01:24:43,996 --> 01:24:45,996
Does that answer the question or not at all?

1225
01:24:45,996 --> 01:24:46,996
But the miner should be the one.

1226
01:24:48,996 --> 01:24:49,996
It nearly answered it.

1227
01:24:50,996 --> 01:24:55,996
But what is so is it says what activates the sidechains or it's still up in the air?

1228
01:24:57,996 --> 01:25:00,996
Oh, you just mean literally, did we as far as I know, we didn't change it.

1229
01:25:01,996 --> 01:25:03,996
The enforcer should be the same. So it should be 90 percent.

1230
01:25:04,996 --> 01:25:09,996
Funny, I don't actually know, but it should be easy to find in the Rust.

1231
01:25:14,996 --> 01:25:15,996
It should be pretty easy to find.

1232
01:25:16,996 --> 01:25:21,996
But yeah, as far as I know, it's still the 90 percent that's in the BIP text.

1233
01:25:23,996 --> 01:25:24,996
All right. Thanks very much.

1234
01:25:25,996 --> 01:25:26,996
Thank you.

1235
01:25:28,996 --> 01:25:30,996
OK, Justin has a hand again.

1236
01:25:31,996 --> 01:25:32,996
Hello again.

1237
01:25:33,996 --> 01:25:39,996
So a bit of a dumb question, but it would be helpful for those that listen to this on the elsewhere.

1238
01:25:41,996 --> 01:25:45,996
Where does the thirteen thousand five hundred fit in?

1239
01:25:48,996 --> 01:25:51,996
That is three months, three months of blocks, basically.

1240
01:25:53,996 --> 01:25:54,996
OK, thanks.

1241
01:25:56,996 --> 01:25:57,996
No problem.

1242
01:25:58,996 --> 01:25:59,996
There's basically.

1243
01:26:01,996 --> 01:26:03,996
Basically, one thousand blocks a week, one thousand and eight.

1244
01:26:05,996 --> 01:26:10,996
So it's not as hard as it is, not as the math is not as impressive as it sounds.

1245
01:26:11,996 --> 01:26:13,996
Twenty six thousand twenty six weeks, 52 weeks in a year.

1246
01:26:15,996 --> 01:26:21,996
Four ish weeks in a month, you know, so four thousand blocks a month, one thousand blocks a week.

1247
01:26:22,996 --> 01:26:27,996
You you also can do block math with your friends.

1248
01:26:29,996 --> 01:26:32,996
If you stick to weeks and weeks is easier.

1249
01:26:34,996 --> 01:26:35,996
OK, anyone else?

1250
01:26:36,996 --> 01:26:37,996
Crab twenty three.

1251
01:26:37,996 --> 01:26:38,996
We got more.

1252
01:26:38,996 --> 01:26:39,996
So you think twenty three.

1253
01:26:40,996 --> 01:26:42,996
Satoshi was assassinated and replaced.

1254
01:26:43,996 --> 01:26:44,996
So the assassin took his computer and everything.

1255
01:26:45,996 --> 01:26:46,996
I'm not trying to I'm not I'm not trying to make fun of you.

1256
01:26:47,996 --> 01:26:48,996
I'm just saying you're the only one who's ever said that.

1257
01:26:49,996 --> 01:26:50,996
And I'm intrigued.

1258
01:26:50,996 --> 01:26:51,996
I'm honestly intrigued.

1259
01:26:52,996 --> 01:26:53,996
And I just want to know the whole details of this.

1260
01:26:55,996 --> 01:26:56,996
Yeah, this theory.

1261
01:26:56,996 --> 01:26:58,996
Yeah, I do believe that's what happened with them.

1262
01:26:59,996 --> 01:27:15,996
Because, again, the if you also if you've paid attention to like all of the dialogue around Bitcoin before and after it was launched and then you compare it to how you was talking in 2010 Bitcoin banks.

1263
01:27:16,996 --> 01:27:18,996
We just replaced banks with our own computer.

1264
01:27:19,996 --> 01:27:20,996
What the fuck do we need Bitcoin banks for?

1265
01:27:22,996 --> 01:27:27,996
You know, I mean, but I think you're referring to him, him referencing how Finney's post about how.

1266
01:27:28,996 --> 01:27:29,996
Yeah.

1267
01:27:29,996 --> 01:27:30,996
But if I remember correctly.

1268
01:27:32,996 --> 01:27:35,996
And it's hard to remember it all, but I think Hal was saying something like.

1269
01:27:36,996 --> 01:27:57,996
It could still even if we were stuck in a situation where you could only have so many people use the base layer Bitcoin, it would it could still work to increase the amount of competitiveness each currency faces, because all the currencies of the world, they would have to reckon with Bitcoin as a kind of like a competitor.

1270
01:27:58,996 --> 01:28:05,996
And so I think that how Finney's post, I think the post was correct, but I think now it's deranging everyone.

1271
01:28:05,996 --> 01:28:11,996
I'm sure you would probably agree with me that like now everyone has like low permanently lowered their standards.

1272
01:28:11,996 --> 01:28:13,996
I don't think Hal would accept.

1273
01:28:15,996 --> 01:28:22,996
I think if how we're alive today, how it would be like, OK, but we don't have to be stuck in that that terrible.

1274
01:28:22,996 --> 01:28:31,996
He was kind of trying to say, like, this is why it would Bitcoin would still work, even if even in this like bad outcome, it would still be great.

1275
01:28:32,996 --> 01:28:34,996
I don't think he was saying we should like aim for the bad hour.

1276
01:28:34,996 --> 01:28:37,996
We should like work towards the bad outcome.

1277
01:28:37,996 --> 01:28:43,996
But anyway, Satoshi was seemed to be saying like he was linking to that and also that economist.

1278
01:28:43,996 --> 01:28:45,996
And I get this one and confused with someone else.

1279
01:28:46,996 --> 01:28:56,996
I think this is Lawrence or was it I don't remember who it was or I don't remember which person it was, but someone was doing like a study on.

1280
01:28:57,996 --> 01:29:02,996
If you had competitive high power money, would it would it still with the rest of the currency also be competitive?

1281
01:29:02,996 --> 01:29:08,996
And so Satoshi was saying something like that, that could work.

1282
01:29:08,996 --> 01:29:14,996
I don't know if he was thinking like that's his vision for Bitcoin.

1283
01:29:14,996 --> 01:29:15,996
I don't know. What do you think?

1284
01:29:16,996 --> 01:29:31,996
The point I was getting at there is that it was there's a vast change in reasoning concerning Bitcoin between the time before he launched it and during the time that it was just initially running and then later on.

1285
01:29:31,996 --> 01:29:44,996
And the whole introduction of the block size limit, I thought it was contentious to begin with because they set it up to where it would be too late for anybody to even bother thinking about.

1286
01:29:44,996 --> 01:29:52,996
Oh, the block size limit is the thing that's causing the fucking network to get congested and people's transactions to get bumped and all this other thing.

1287
01:29:53,996 --> 01:30:03,996
It just it doesn't make any sense to me that he would launch the perfect Internet money and then throw in this parameter that completely destroys it.

1288
01:30:03,996 --> 01:30:12,996
I mean, it's like either he was the first bait and switch scammer in crypto or it wasn't him that actually added the block size limit.

1289
01:30:13,996 --> 01:30:27,996
Well, the conventional story that's told is that someone like complained about denial of service attacking the network with, you know, like kind of fake block that were very large.

1290
01:30:27,996 --> 01:30:33,996
And then he was like, oh, yeah, you're right, that that could be used to denial service attack the network.

1291
01:30:33,996 --> 01:30:38,996
So I'll put in this limit and then people argue about removing the limit later.

1292
01:30:38,996 --> 01:30:45,996
The limit actually created the situation whereby a DDOS attack could actually be successful.

1293
01:30:45,996 --> 01:30:52,996
I mean, that's like I've been saying for a while now that the miners are selfish mining blocks.

1294
01:30:52,996 --> 01:30:55,996
We're not supposed to be discriminating between transactions.

1295
01:30:55,996 --> 01:30:58,996
We're not supposed to be reordering transactions.

1296
01:30:58,996 --> 01:31:00,996
These are the things that banks do.

1297
01:31:01,996 --> 01:31:22,996
OK, and later on, if we get much further down the road with this, I believe that the legislators are going to start regulating based on that, that if you can do anything that causes somebody's transaction to fail or not go through or not be included in a block that they're going to require you to get licensed and register.

1298
01:31:22,996 --> 01:31:39,996
And personally, I feel like this is all part of a much bigger plan to turn Bitcoin into a swift replacement to where there's only licensed and registered people that are mining it or can mine it and that the rest of us got to go figure out something else to do.

1299
01:31:40,996 --> 01:31:46,996
But that's pretty much what FediMint and also ARK is.

1300
01:31:46,996 --> 01:31:52,996
You have these liquidity pools and liquidity providers that are registered and they're legal and whatever that means.

1301
01:31:53,996 --> 01:31:58,996
So I think to a great extent, I've been thinking about this for a long time.

1302
01:31:58,996 --> 01:32:11,996
The Bitcoin maximalist thesis makes a lot of sense in respect of making Bitcoin the one currency that succeeds, which I think is beautiful and is very principled in some ways.

1303
01:32:11,996 --> 01:32:16,996
But at the same time, it's also the most convenient ideology for the Feds to capture it.

1304
01:32:17,996 --> 01:32:28,996
If you actually look at the CIA policy for Bitcoin, you're going to see that there is not anything contentious about Bitcoin maximalism that challenges it.

1305
01:32:28,996 --> 01:32:32,996
So in lots of ways, Bitcoin is not Cypherpunk anymore.

1306
01:32:32,996 --> 01:32:46,996
In regards to the history of block size increases, there is actually in 2010, if I'm not mistaken, a post on Bitcoin Talk by Jeff Garzik who proposed a client that increased the block size to seven megabytes.

1307
01:32:46,996 --> 01:32:50,996
And Satoshi responded to that one and said, don't run the software.

1308
01:32:50,996 --> 01:32:51,996
It's too early for that.

1309
01:32:52,996 --> 01:32:57,996
So I think there are all sorts of arguments that you can make.

1310
01:32:57,996 --> 01:33:04,996
Maybe that, according to Krev's theory, that was the assassinated and replaced Satoshi that said don't run the seven megabytes.

1311
01:33:04,996 --> 01:33:06,996
I was going to ask him about that before we got to that.

1312
01:33:06,996 --> 01:33:15,996
I was going to say, does the theory include, because Satoshi went on to say, this is how we would phase in, this is how we would phase out the one megabyte limit.

1313
01:33:16,996 --> 01:33:22,996
And which a lot of the large blockers hold that up as saying, oh, Satoshi always wanted the limit to be phased out.

1314
01:33:22,996 --> 01:33:24,996
He was talking about how he would phase it out.

1315
01:33:24,996 --> 01:33:28,996
But that doesn't work if this is the assassin posting that.

1316
01:33:28,996 --> 01:33:35,996
So I just thought that would be a funny thing to ask if the assassin is also posting about how to get rid of the limit and putting it in.

1317
01:33:35,996 --> 01:33:38,996
It's kind of a, you know, it's an interesting idea.

1318
01:33:39,996 --> 01:33:46,996
I think what the attacker was planning there is that it didn't go into effect until 2014.

1319
01:33:46,996 --> 01:33:51,996
And if you look back at Bitcoin's history, it was most popular up until that point.

1320
01:33:51,996 --> 01:33:59,996
I mean, we had Microsoft doing transactions directly on chain and accepting payments for services and stuff through their website.

1321
01:33:59,996 --> 01:34:02,996
I don't know how much more institutional you can get than Microsoft.

1322
01:34:02,996 --> 01:34:09,996
I mean, to me, that's like, you know, a definite example of industrial adoption.

1323
01:34:10,996 --> 01:34:12,996
Yeah, the full blocks curtailed.

1324
01:34:12,996 --> 01:34:18,996
We had we had geometrically increasing adoption, which was then curtailed by the.

1325
01:34:18,996 --> 01:34:20,996
But we don't know what other horrors would have awaited us if we did.

1326
01:34:20,996 --> 01:34:22,996
Anyway, SatSkala put his hand up.

1327
01:34:22,996 --> 01:34:24,996
So I just wanted to let him.

1328
01:34:26,996 --> 01:34:29,996
I just was trying to also learn more of Krebs theory.

1329
01:34:29,996 --> 01:34:40,996
Like, were you like, what did you where are you getting the original block size for the chain at V1?

1330
01:34:42,996 --> 01:34:48,996
It didn't try to understand, like the history of your there was there was no block size limit originally.

1331
01:34:48,996 --> 01:34:53,996
And if you read through the white paper, you notice the lack of a book telling you what to do when the blocks are full.

1332
01:34:54,996 --> 01:34:56,996
That's where we've been at since.

1333
01:34:57,996 --> 01:35:04,996
OK, if I told you there was like a bit of a soft ceiling with that, what would that with that?

1334
01:35:04,996 --> 01:35:07,996
Like, what would that do with your opinion and thesis?

1335
01:35:08,996 --> 01:35:13,996
You know, if we actually hit a limit, then then we would have something to talk about.

1336
01:35:13,996 --> 01:35:16,996
But I mean, we didn't even have enough users to get to.

1337
01:35:16,996 --> 01:35:22,996
I think it was like supposedly a theoretical two point four gigabyte block size limit or something like that.

1338
01:35:22,996 --> 01:35:33,996
I'm a little smaller than that, but there yeah, there was an effective like soft cap on the sizes of the blocks that had to do with the message, you know, when the message transaction was sent.

1339
01:35:33,996 --> 01:35:39,996
So there was limits to the sizes that, you know, of the transactions.

1340
01:35:39,996 --> 01:35:41,996
It was 32 by. Yeah.

1341
01:35:41,996 --> 01:35:43,996
I didn't want to just come out and say it.

1342
01:35:43,996 --> 01:35:49,996
I wanted to see like where he was coming from because I want like there was an effective point to the size of the messages in the transaction.

1343
01:35:49,996 --> 01:35:51,996
And then that cap was lowered by said like.

1344
01:35:51,996 --> 01:35:58,996
And again, like I'm not I'm not trying to like make the funny like policy, like I'm trying to understand like where this framing comes from.

1345
01:35:58,996 --> 01:36:08,996
So if I enter into this conversation with the framing that in fact there was a limit and that that limit was simply lowered, does that alter your thesis at all?

1346
01:36:08,996 --> 01:36:10,996
No, not at all.

1347
01:36:10,996 --> 01:36:17,996
Well, I think if a minor today was running zero point one, I mean, they would lose out.

1348
01:36:17,996 --> 01:36:20,996
I mean, they would lose out on a lot of fees.

1349
01:36:20,996 --> 01:36:22,996
Yeah, they would be destroyed.

1350
01:36:22,996 --> 01:36:26,996
They could still mine blocks of any size they wanted to.

1351
01:36:26,996 --> 01:36:28,996
I think, though, they can't run.

1352
01:36:28,996 --> 01:36:32,996
I think it's version six or seven.

1353
01:36:32,996 --> 01:36:37,996
I can't remember which one is the last one that you can effectively run.

1354
01:36:37,996 --> 01:36:43,996
That's I would have to check and see which ones I because I have some of the like the original version still still online.

1355
01:36:43,996 --> 01:36:46,996
And I have to check and see which ones they actually are.

1356
01:36:46,996 --> 01:36:50,996
I think this is what you're referring to is that some of them don't even actually synchronize.

1357
01:36:50,996 --> 01:36:51,996
That's correct.

1358
01:36:51,996 --> 01:36:52,996
They don't.

1359
01:36:52,996 --> 01:36:53,996
Yeah.

1360
01:36:53,996 --> 01:36:54,996
No deal.

1361
01:36:54,996 --> 01:36:56,996
The one will not synchronize with the network at all.

1362
01:36:56,996 --> 01:36:57,996
It just doesn't work.

1363
01:36:57,996 --> 01:37:04,996
And if you don't run a SegWit and taproot, you may produce accidentally improve invalid blocks as a minor.

1364
01:37:05,996 --> 01:37:07,996
The 32 byte message limit.

1365
01:37:07,996 --> 01:37:22,996
I'm not sure what to make of it, because if you think about how Bitcoin blocks were basically empty for a while, for years, and then only in 2014, which was like six years in, did they start to become one megabyte?

1366
01:37:23,996 --> 01:37:27,996
I don't know if maybe he just thought 32 was just like really, really big.

1367
01:37:27,996 --> 01:37:30,996
And you could like it's different messages together.

1368
01:37:30,996 --> 01:37:31,996
Maybe even that.

1369
01:37:31,996 --> 01:37:36,996
Even though there was there was always a kind of a 32 megabyte block size limit, sort of.

1370
01:37:36,996 --> 01:37:37,996
Right.

1371
01:37:37,996 --> 01:37:42,996
Maybe he just didn't think of that as a limit.

1372
01:37:42,996 --> 01:37:44,996
Like you just thought, well, I just have to.

1373
01:37:44,996 --> 01:37:45,996
You know, it's like when you declare a.

1374
01:37:45,996 --> 01:37:51,996
Like when you declare like an integer or something and you just kind of pick something that you think is like way bigger than you.

1375
01:37:51,996 --> 01:37:52,996
Probably.

1376
01:37:52,996 --> 01:37:54,996
I don't know.

1377
01:37:54,996 --> 01:37:55,996
I can't.

1378
01:37:55,996 --> 01:38:03,996
I can't think of a reason why even back then with hardware limitations, why 32 was was unless like I see, like, we don't know the architecture that he was like originally building on.

1379
01:38:03,996 --> 01:38:06,996
Like, like, we know, we know that he had a custom node.

1380
01:38:06,996 --> 01:38:10,996
We know that it was probably on some sort of like higher end machine.

1381
01:38:11,996 --> 01:38:13,996
But like, we don't.

1382
01:38:13,996 --> 01:38:22,996
I was just trying to say, like, I kind of agree with I would kind of be with Kreb when he because inevitably Kreb will say, well, he didn't intentionally put a 32 megabyte thing.

1383
01:38:22,996 --> 01:38:24,996
And he just like he wrote the song.

1384
01:38:24,996 --> 01:38:25,996
He just assembled the software.

1385
01:38:25,996 --> 01:38:29,996
And it kind of like one of the message values is like this default 32 megabyte thing.

1386
01:38:29,996 --> 01:38:33,996
But he didn't like declare 32 megabytes.

1387
01:38:33,996 --> 01:38:34,996
Holy number.

1388
01:38:34,996 --> 01:38:35,996
And so that's true.

1389
01:38:35,996 --> 01:38:36,996
Yeah.

1390
01:38:36,996 --> 01:38:37,996
Yeah.

1391
01:38:37,996 --> 01:38:38,996
It was never declared.

1392
01:38:38,996 --> 01:38:39,996
Yeah.

1393
01:38:39,996 --> 01:38:48,996
So, you know, having a limit, you know, in those early softwares.

1394
01:38:48,996 --> 01:38:53,996
But see, he introduced, I mean, it was like six months later that he dropped it down to one meg.

1395
01:38:53,996 --> 01:38:54,996
Right.

1396
01:38:54,996 --> 01:39:04,996
It was like, well, according to Kreb, the assassin did this, but according to so far, most other people that Satoshi himself, he put in this one megabyte thing.

1397
01:39:04,996 --> 01:39:09,996
And then he described how you could phase it out in response to a direct question.

1398
01:39:09,996 --> 01:39:10,996
So he didn't like.

1399
01:39:10,996 --> 01:39:16,996
And then even though he described how to phase it out, this is where this is where the block size limit.

1400
01:39:16,996 --> 01:39:19,996
It's just there's a lot of evidence on both sides.

1401
01:39:19,996 --> 01:39:31,996
And because even though he described that to phase it out, he then intentionally left the project or as maybe Kreb would say, the assassin couldn't keep up the impersonation any longer or whatever it is.

1402
01:39:31,996 --> 01:39:32,996
That's right.

1403
01:39:32,996 --> 01:39:36,996
And so and so then he left and he did not type.

1404
01:39:36,996 --> 01:39:44,996
He didn't he didn't like release a final version of the code or he didn't release like a message saying, by the way, be sure to phase out that.

1405
01:39:44,996 --> 01:39:48,996
Whereas in contrast, he did do a lot of other things to future proof.

1406
01:39:49,346 --> 01:39:56,066
The software, such as including the ops and which and letting people use them for future software upgrades.

1407
01:39:56,066 --> 01:39:58,626
So he kind of future proof to Bitcoin like a lot.

1408
01:39:59,106 --> 01:40:02,306
And then he left and a small blocker said, well, he left and he didn't.

1409
01:40:02,546 --> 01:40:04,866
He didn't. He kept the one megabyte limit in.

1410
01:40:04,866 --> 01:40:10,305
And so and this has been debated to death for for decades by lots of people.

1411
01:40:12,506 --> 01:40:14,866
Yeah, and I'm not going to lie.

1412
01:40:14,866 --> 01:40:16,466
I, I like the theory, Kreb.

1413
01:40:16,466 --> 01:40:18,426
I guess it's a fun theory to think about.

1414
01:40:18,426 --> 01:40:24,426
I just was wondering, like, you know, are you are you is this a theory of yours or is it a belief of yours?

1415
01:40:24,426 --> 01:40:31,746
That's that's why, like I was I was saying, like if if other things were introduced, like what would that change or would it like is it a theory or a belief?

1416
01:40:32,186 --> 01:40:40,746
It's definitely a belief, mostly because if you if you were to read the Bitcoin white paper, it's fully contextualized in terms of PCs.

1417
01:40:41,066 --> 01:40:46,305
You know, it's like people that run data centers, they don't worry about things like Moore's law.

1418
01:40:46,586 --> 01:40:55,426
But people who are flipping their hardware over every five to eight years because newer, better processors are coming out, they they actually give a shit about Moore's law.

1419
01:40:55,985 --> 01:41:02,706
And also Moore's law, it it's one of those things that we kind of casually mentioned in whatever.

1420
01:41:03,106 --> 01:41:15,466
But if you really think about how how it shakes out, it's basically a implicit warning to you that any kind of advantage that you gain with with more sophisticated hardware

1421
01:41:15,506 --> 01:41:22,305
or specialized hardware, it's temporary and that the rest of the network is going to catch up with you eventually.

1422
01:41:28,066 --> 01:41:29,185
OK, that's interesting.

1423
01:41:29,225 --> 01:41:37,786
Let's let's ask if any of the audience, though, wants to go back to because we have 16 minutes left.

1424
01:41:38,426 --> 01:41:39,545
So if anyone has any.

1425
01:41:41,026 --> 01:41:48,666
eCash, hard fork, eCash.com, hard fork questions or other questions, you know,

1426
01:41:49,545 --> 01:42:00,105
Paul, super quick, I just wanted to let you know, I did put the bug, the versions of the Mac OS bit window that I had issues with.

1427
01:42:00,146 --> 01:42:05,025
So I think it was like dot 77, which is what I'm using and it's working.

1428
01:42:05,545 --> 01:42:09,745
And then I think dot 113 is where I first saw.

1429
01:42:09,825 --> 01:42:11,226
Were you copy pasting?

1430
01:42:12,745 --> 01:42:20,506
No, I was putting that to the guys and yeah, I even put a screenshot in the in the chat.

1431
01:42:20,545 --> 01:42:23,985
But even if you just generate wallet, like it's the same thing.

1432
01:42:24,066 --> 01:42:25,346
So it just gets stuck.

1433
01:42:25,385 --> 01:42:27,066
It just it just spins and does nothing.

1434
01:42:27,465 --> 01:42:30,185
And then, as I said, on version 77, it works.

1435
01:42:30,226 --> 01:42:31,545
So I see how it's supposed to work.

1436
01:42:31,586 --> 01:42:34,066
It just click and it loads the dashboard.

1437
01:42:34,586 --> 01:42:36,866
So it's definitely like an issue.

1438
01:42:36,905 --> 01:42:40,586
And then I just saw there's a new version dot 114.

1439
01:42:41,185 --> 01:42:45,265
I think that just came out maybe today and it's still not working on that either.

1440
01:42:45,306 --> 01:42:47,866
So I would just take a look.

1441
01:42:48,465 --> 01:42:51,346
I'll test the other platform when I have time.

1442
01:42:51,385 --> 01:42:54,905
I have Windows and Linux and Ubuntu as well.

1443
01:42:54,905 --> 01:42:57,146
So I'll test and see if it's if it's like consistent.

1444
01:42:57,185 --> 01:43:01,265
But but definitely on Mac, that's what I'm using kind of for testing.

1445
01:43:01,306 --> 01:43:02,706
So that's where I'm noticing.

1446
01:43:03,185 --> 01:43:08,385
But I sent a screenshot just so you can visually see the screen that I'm talking about.

1447
01:43:08,426 --> 01:43:12,385
And, you know, confirm I'm sending that to them right now.

1448
01:43:12,905 --> 01:43:13,946
So thanks for that.

1449
01:43:13,985 --> 01:43:15,745
And I have to run soon, too.

1450
01:43:15,905 --> 01:43:17,825
So I want to thank I want to thank Paul.

1451
01:43:17,866 --> 01:43:21,666
I want to thank I want to thank everybody else here.

1452
01:43:22,385 --> 01:43:22,985
I want to thank.

1453
01:43:23,506 --> 01:43:27,706
Hold on one second, guys, I'm sorry, I'm driving to like an idiot talking and driving on the phone.

1454
01:43:28,545 --> 01:43:31,226
But I know I am bad.

1455
01:43:31,866 --> 01:43:33,265
I am bad, but I want to thank Vlad.

1456
01:43:33,786 --> 01:43:34,506
Thank you, Krav.

1457
01:43:34,545 --> 01:43:35,545
And thanks, everybody else.

1458
01:43:36,105 --> 01:43:36,946
Really appreciate being here.

1459
01:43:36,985 --> 01:43:37,625
Thank you very much.

1460
01:43:39,666 --> 01:43:40,226
OK, great.

1461
01:43:40,625 --> 01:43:42,465
And thank you for your report.

1462
01:43:43,226 --> 01:43:44,586
I didn't think I got an answer.

1463
01:43:45,146 --> 01:43:46,866
When will Thunder be back?

1464
01:43:46,905 --> 01:43:48,025
Like, when do you estimate?

1465
01:43:49,025 --> 01:43:50,066
It'll be back now.

1466
01:43:50,105 --> 01:43:50,946
Is it back or not?

1467
01:43:50,985 --> 01:43:51,625
I don't even know.

1468
01:43:51,625 --> 01:43:53,625
I'm still bringing my note back online.

1469
01:43:54,506 --> 01:43:55,985
You could go to a note.

1470
01:43:56,625 --> 01:43:57,666
You think like today?

1471
01:43:57,706 --> 01:43:58,346
Yeah, that's fine.

1472
01:43:58,346 --> 01:43:59,825
As long as it's like expected to be back today.

1473
01:43:59,825 --> 01:44:00,265
That's cool.

1474
01:44:00,346 --> 01:44:03,226
Like, I just want to know if it's like days or whatever.

1475
01:44:04,226 --> 01:44:08,786
As soon as you go to node.signet.drivechain.info, if you can remember all those things.

1476
01:44:09,826 --> 01:44:13,585
And there's somewhere there's a you click explore.

1477
01:44:13,745 --> 01:44:15,145
There's like a thing that shows up.

1478
01:44:15,585 --> 01:44:16,705
It's my favorite screen.

1479
01:44:17,145 --> 01:44:17,666
Yeah.

1480
01:44:17,705 --> 01:44:20,506
You know, the node.signet.drivechain.info.

1481
01:44:20,506 --> 01:44:21,705
And you can also go to like other.

1482
01:44:21,865 --> 01:44:24,465
But you're talking about the sidechains screen.

1483
01:44:26,425 --> 01:44:31,546
If you go to explore, it will show you how many other chains are up and how many blocks they have.

1484
01:44:31,745 --> 01:44:33,705
I'm looking at it on main change.

1485
01:44:33,865 --> 01:44:34,585
Main sorry.

1486
01:44:34,585 --> 01:44:43,185
Main chain shows height three thirty four last block, seven minutes and every other sidechain shows height zero.

1487
01:44:45,106 --> 01:44:45,786
Oh, interesting.

1488
01:44:45,826 --> 01:44:49,145
I think they must have activated and maybe they're not being mined.

1489
01:44:49,865 --> 01:44:52,666
That is, again, maybe it's just not unusual.

1490
01:44:52,705 --> 01:44:57,106
Maybe it's just not on the front end, but I'm going to be running some tests very shortly.

1491
01:44:57,106 --> 01:45:01,625
So I'll know very soon if it's actually running on the back on like the actual network is running.

1492
01:45:01,826 --> 01:45:03,106
OK, well, I'll turn it back on.

1493
01:45:03,145 --> 01:45:04,066
I will message.

1494
01:45:05,666 --> 01:45:12,025
Because I just want to reiterate that we actually ran it for like more than a year without having it.

1495
01:45:12,066 --> 01:45:16,585
You know, I sent you a screenshot of the before.

1496
01:45:17,066 --> 01:45:20,745
And so I know I believe me, I trust you because I saw the blocks.

1497
01:45:20,786 --> 01:45:22,585
So I was like, where'd all the blocks go?

1498
01:45:23,425 --> 01:45:27,025
Because I have a screenshot now before the resetting.

1499
01:45:28,585 --> 01:45:30,745
So, yeah, I saw it was like 16,000.

1500
01:45:31,465 --> 01:45:35,705
Yeah. OK, thanks for bringing that up.

1501
01:45:36,185 --> 01:45:37,946
I will message about that.

1502
01:45:38,305 --> 01:45:40,666
So I think they activated it.

1503
01:45:40,666 --> 01:45:42,425
That's a day.

1504
01:45:43,865 --> 01:45:44,826
Is that like all of them?

1505
01:45:44,826 --> 01:45:49,266
Because besides Thunder, I would really appreciate a BitAssets was back up.

1506
01:45:49,266 --> 01:45:52,106
So are you expecting all of them to like come back at the same time?

1507
01:45:53,506 --> 01:45:57,745
Well, let me think, I, you know, we have various things tracking.

1508
01:45:58,386 --> 01:45:59,865
Let's see. I think.

1509
01:46:00,425 --> 01:46:06,346
Yeah. They all activated at 8 a.m.

1510
01:46:06,346 --> 01:46:07,705
roughly this morning.

1511
01:46:09,346 --> 01:46:10,865
But then I guess no one's mining them.

1512
01:46:10,905 --> 01:46:12,145
That's yeah, I expected that.

1513
01:46:13,066 --> 01:46:14,905
OK, that's still worth it.

1514
01:46:14,905 --> 01:46:15,905
Mining turned back on.

1515
01:46:15,905 --> 01:46:21,226
Yeah, I just like I said, it's really Cignet LDL one that I wanted.

1516
01:46:21,346 --> 01:46:22,946
Oh, you know, it actually is possible.

1517
01:46:22,946 --> 01:46:24,346
No, never mind. This is impossible.

1518
01:46:24,346 --> 01:46:26,465
I was going to say, but never mind. I had a different idea.

1519
01:46:27,145 --> 01:46:29,266
No worries. I appreciate you getting the

1520
01:46:30,226 --> 01:46:32,106
the Cignet challenge because that's working again.

1521
01:46:32,106 --> 01:46:34,425
Like I'm back. I'm back on the live network.

1522
01:46:34,986 --> 01:46:36,705
So so I should be good.

1523
01:46:36,705 --> 01:46:40,585
And if I have anything else, like, is it can I like post to the to the GitHub

1524
01:46:40,666 --> 01:46:44,346
like an issue without work?

1525
01:46:44,346 --> 01:46:45,266
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

1526
01:46:45,266 --> 01:46:47,986
OK, perfect. I'll do that.

1527
01:46:47,986 --> 01:46:50,745
I'm going to do some more testing now, because I guess that I yesterday

1528
01:46:50,745 --> 01:46:53,986
I just like it just like hit like a brick wall and everything just stopped working.

1529
01:46:54,585 --> 01:46:56,666
But I'm pretty at least at all.

1530
01:46:56,865 --> 01:46:58,226
No, no, no worries at all.

1531
01:46:58,226 --> 01:46:59,826
I mean, it was a day. So that was that was fine.

1532
01:46:59,826 --> 01:47:02,585
It was like a week. So so I'm back up now.

1533
01:47:02,585 --> 01:47:04,705
I just want to finish like what I was doing.

1534
01:47:05,305 --> 01:47:09,666
And then I will definitely post in the GitHub like, you know, my findings.

1535
01:47:11,585 --> 01:47:12,585
OK, great. Yeah.

1536
01:47:12,585 --> 01:47:15,546
People found some great bugs to enter the contest.

1537
01:47:16,826 --> 01:47:18,865
People use very interesting techniques.

1538
01:47:18,865 --> 01:47:22,546
And so we were like, well, we're fixing all these bugs.

1539
01:47:22,546 --> 01:47:24,305
We'll just reset. So it's very hard.

1540
01:47:24,305 --> 01:47:25,826
We got a Joe with a hand.

1541
01:47:25,826 --> 01:47:28,185
Hello, Joe. Hey.

1542
01:47:29,625 --> 01:47:33,546
Yeah, so just actually related to the block size questions,

1543
01:47:33,865 --> 01:47:35,986
but more Drivechain cash related.

1544
01:47:37,185 --> 01:47:39,865
I do really think it's realistic.

1545
01:47:39,865 --> 01:47:41,986
Like, obviously, a huge fan of the project.

1546
01:47:42,025 --> 01:47:47,305
This is a minor criticism, but the block size reduction.

1547
01:47:47,585 --> 01:47:50,666
Don't you think it like, I guess, do you think it's realistic

1548
01:47:50,666 --> 01:47:54,986
that exchanges are going to list separate sidechains,

1549
01:47:55,506 --> 01:47:59,266
which themselves might have different exchange rates

1550
01:48:00,145 --> 01:48:02,705
if the block size is kind of is this small?

1551
01:48:04,106 --> 01:48:06,786
And because people to move back to.

1552
01:48:07,305 --> 01:48:09,745
OK, you get that. Yeah.

1553
01:48:09,946 --> 01:48:14,865
I was going to say you're thinking like very few people would use the L1

1554
01:48:14,865 --> 01:48:17,986
so they have to list under also.

1555
01:48:19,226 --> 01:48:23,626
Yeah, well, very few people can if these are relatively high, at least,

1556
01:48:23,786 --> 01:48:28,705
you know, the arbitrage would be to go back to L1 from Thunder.

1557
01:48:28,705 --> 01:48:30,505
Let's say you get on board to that.

1558
01:48:30,505 --> 01:48:32,626
Then you have to go and peg in.

1559
01:48:32,626 --> 01:48:33,866
So that's a fee.

1560
01:48:33,866 --> 01:48:36,145
One or two transactions on L1.

1561
01:48:36,585 --> 01:48:38,505
Then you get your other coin.

1562
01:48:38,505 --> 01:48:42,025
Whereas, obviously, you can on board directly into each sidechain.

1563
01:48:42,426 --> 01:48:46,825
But the the exchange rates might be different across them

1564
01:48:48,265 --> 01:48:52,306
just to account for this arbitrage of going back to L1

1565
01:48:52,666 --> 01:48:55,145
and then pegging in and pegging out everything.

1566
01:48:55,866 --> 01:48:56,986
So, yeah, I agree.

1567
01:48:56,986 --> 01:48:59,226
It could be like 99 cents on the dollar.

1568
01:48:59,746 --> 01:49:02,106
So I think it probably would.

1569
01:49:03,025 --> 01:49:06,866
At first, the exchange probably thinking like, OK, this is BTC airdrop.

1570
01:49:07,866 --> 01:49:10,465
People, a lot of people want to dump the coin,

1571
01:49:10,465 --> 01:49:14,065
and a lot of people will be thinking like, where's my free coin?

1572
01:49:14,065 --> 01:49:18,025
So that's kind of like what the thinking would be for L1.

1573
01:49:18,825 --> 01:49:20,786
And, you know, it's a new project.

1574
01:49:20,786 --> 01:49:26,825
And so so I think that that would be part of the L1 thinking.

1575
01:49:27,145 --> 01:49:29,505
Then if the L2s were popular.

1576
01:49:30,626 --> 01:49:34,986
And in fact, if they had lower fee, similar to how BTC like Kraken

1577
01:49:34,986 --> 01:49:37,385
added the lightning network.

1578
01:49:38,025 --> 01:49:40,746
Like to deposit and withdraw from Kraken.

1579
01:49:40,786 --> 01:49:43,546
Yes. And like some people did liquid, maybe I'm sure.

1580
01:49:44,226 --> 01:49:46,705
So it would kind of be a little like that, right?

1581
01:49:47,106 --> 01:49:48,426
It's basically the same thing.

1582
01:49:48,426 --> 01:49:51,505
Instead of running like lightning, they have to do the whole Kraken

1583
01:49:51,505 --> 01:49:53,226
lightning integration.

1584
01:49:53,226 --> 01:49:56,065
They have to have a lightning node talking to their L1 node.

1585
01:49:56,065 --> 01:49:58,666
So then this is kind of the same thing, except it's much easier

1586
01:49:58,666 --> 01:50:02,505
because, of course, the lightning node is extremely temperamental.

1587
01:50:02,505 --> 01:50:05,546
And you have all these channels and.

1588
01:50:05,546 --> 01:50:07,986
So it's it's totally easier.

1589
01:50:07,986 --> 01:50:12,306
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that, although like by the same logic

1590
01:50:12,306 --> 01:50:15,025
of how do you onboard everybody to the L1?

1591
01:50:16,546 --> 01:50:20,505
You you would still think we would probably be saving in our L1.

1592
01:50:20,505 --> 01:50:25,186
So we need still at least like one transaction per person.

1593
01:50:25,626 --> 01:50:28,426
You know, I don't know how long often people would transact

1594
01:50:28,426 --> 01:50:31,385
with their savings around, but but I just think that logic.

1595
01:50:31,385 --> 01:50:35,065
I mean, like the people redeeming, yeah, the people splitting the coins.

1596
01:50:35,905 --> 01:50:39,186
Yeah. And then like, oh, so not even just that, but also if people are going

1597
01:50:39,186 --> 01:50:42,505
to invest and hold on to the cash in the future, you know, it'll be treated

1598
01:50:42,505 --> 01:50:47,106
sort of as as like a money, then you'd think they want to be on the L1.

1599
01:50:47,786 --> 01:50:51,585
And then I just kind of see that, OK, people probably are willing

1600
01:50:51,585 --> 01:50:54,186
to pay relatively high fees to move their savings around,

1601
01:50:54,786 --> 01:50:57,265
you know, once or twice a year.

1602
01:50:57,265 --> 01:51:00,546
But that will still kind of inhibit the arbitrage,

1603
01:51:00,746 --> 01:51:03,265
allowing coins to move between L2s

1604
01:51:04,106 --> 01:51:06,385
because there's got to be two transactions now.

1605
01:51:07,465 --> 01:51:10,065
So I just wonder if it'll look a little bit ugly

1606
01:51:10,186 --> 01:51:13,106
if we under shoot for block size.

1607
01:51:13,106 --> 01:51:16,346
Well, if it's two thousand five hundred or two, let's say

1608
01:51:16,346 --> 01:51:18,626
just two thousand transactions per block right now.

1609
01:51:19,426 --> 01:51:21,025
And then it's one thousand blocks per week.

1610
01:51:21,025 --> 01:51:23,465
There's two million transactions per week.

1611
01:51:23,465 --> 01:51:25,585
So it's kind of a lot.

1612
01:51:26,025 --> 01:51:27,546
Now, I think I agree with you.

1613
01:51:27,546 --> 01:51:30,346
Like I was kind of like really proud of myself when I thought of this idea.

1614
01:51:30,346 --> 01:51:31,705
Oh, I have the smaller block size.

1615
01:51:31,705 --> 01:51:35,306
This is back in, you know, people cared more about the block size.

1616
01:51:35,465 --> 01:51:39,106
I think now, if anything, everyone is like.

1617
01:51:40,705 --> 01:51:42,705
I don't know what the word or how to explain this would be,

1618
01:51:42,705 --> 01:51:46,546
but like it's kind of like people want to push the envelope.

1619
01:51:47,106 --> 01:51:50,465
The question is, like, how can you get users and you have like Solana

1620
01:51:50,465 --> 01:51:52,945
and you have like whatever base and you have all this other stuff

1621
01:51:52,945 --> 01:51:55,265
where it's like super, super, super large block,

1622
01:51:55,585 --> 01:51:58,746
but like just sprint to the user experience

1623
01:51:59,746 --> 01:52:02,905
and people don't even care that much about either way.

1624
01:52:03,145 --> 01:52:06,145
The small block size of Bitcoin or the decentralization of Bitcoin,

1625
01:52:06,145 --> 01:52:09,786
and maybe it's partially because bandwidth speeds and things have improved.

1626
01:52:09,905 --> 01:52:13,825
Like you don't really hear that much about BTC being valuable

1627
01:52:13,825 --> 01:52:16,986
because the block size is so small and it's so easy to run a full node.

1628
01:52:17,265 --> 01:52:21,385
You just instead you just hear people say stuff like we can never change

1629
01:52:21,746 --> 01:52:23,986
the sacred BTC, change it in any way,

1630
01:52:25,065 --> 01:52:27,986
let alone move the block size up or down or sideways or anything.

1631
01:52:28,905 --> 01:52:33,065
So I kind of don't think there's more of an appetite for like

1632
01:52:33,825 --> 01:52:36,705
people are more afraid

1633
01:52:36,705 --> 01:52:37,786
of than I thought.

1634
01:52:37,786 --> 01:52:40,065
This is much this is different than how I expected.

1635
01:52:40,825 --> 01:52:44,426
People are much more what they like to hear is that

1636
01:52:45,025 --> 01:52:46,986
our L1 is just the same as Bitcoin Core.

1637
01:52:46,986 --> 01:52:48,705
We're just going to copy Bitcoin Core.

1638
01:52:48,705 --> 01:52:52,945
So they really like that much, much more than I thought they would.

1639
01:52:54,145 --> 01:52:57,186
And I don't know if anyone really cares so much about this all like

1640
01:52:58,106 --> 01:53:00,626
lower L1 block size.

1641
01:53:00,626 --> 01:53:02,065
So my opinion on it is changing a lot.

1642
01:53:02,065 --> 01:53:05,065
I would say like maybe now it would even be like I've already been at the case

1643
01:53:05,065 --> 01:53:09,186
where I would say something like it would be the same block size for like a year

1644
01:53:09,186 --> 01:53:11,186
and then drop down.

1645
01:53:11,705 --> 01:53:15,945
And so I'm feeling less and less good about it over time.

1646
01:53:17,385 --> 01:53:20,866
So you're right to complain about it, I suppose, because I kind of think now it's like

1647
01:53:21,825 --> 01:53:24,065
it doesn't even no one will even care either way.

1648
01:53:24,065 --> 01:53:26,186
And so right, whatever.

1649
01:53:27,626 --> 01:53:30,626
Yeah, just like my two.

1650
01:53:30,626 --> 01:53:34,025
Like my two cents on that is just like I was a small blocker back

1651
01:53:34,025 --> 01:53:36,746
during the block size wars, but I think it's kind of a threshold thing.

1652
01:53:36,746 --> 01:53:41,226
And I think it's more about do we want to always accommodate more usage

1653
01:53:41,426 --> 01:53:44,426
and then just commit ourselves to always going up like that?

1654
01:53:44,426 --> 01:53:47,546
I find kind of ugly and not the right answer.

1655
01:53:47,945 --> 01:53:49,945
But it is.

1656
01:53:49,945 --> 01:53:53,426
But like for now, yeah, like does lowering it actually attract more people?

1657
01:53:53,465 --> 01:53:56,385
I don't know. I kind of think one megabyte or whatever it is.

1658
01:53:57,186 --> 01:53:59,546
As Bitcoin right now is pretty small and fine.

1659
01:54:00,025 --> 01:54:06,186
And then I just worry about UI sort of, you know, what happens if you know,

1660
01:54:06,186 --> 01:54:10,306
like I want to be able to transact on L1, you may not trust the L2 all the time.

1661
01:54:10,306 --> 01:54:15,866
And then having the onboarding have to be you on board to Truthcoin to BitAssets.

1662
01:54:15,866 --> 01:54:18,546
So each exchange is going to have four different L2s

1663
01:54:19,746 --> 01:54:21,825
that are then going to be expensive to move between.

1664
01:54:21,825 --> 01:54:25,186
So they might be different in price

1665
01:54:25,186 --> 01:54:29,145
more than point nine nine, but could be, you know, a little bit more than that.

1666
01:54:29,186 --> 01:54:33,626
You know, just because like if you have one arbitrage

1667
01:54:34,666 --> 01:54:37,986
moving the coins for you, I think you're still going to have to make a lot of outputs.

1668
01:54:38,346 --> 01:54:40,986
So I think his transaction fees are still going to be high.

1669
01:54:41,106 --> 01:54:43,546
Like ultimately, somebody is going to hold the L1 coins.

1670
01:54:44,065 --> 01:54:46,306
So it could be a quite a high transaction

1671
01:54:47,825 --> 01:54:50,825
fee he'd have to pay as he is

1672
01:54:50,825 --> 01:54:55,346
as the ultimately the coins have to end up in different UTXOs on the L1.

1673
01:54:55,905 --> 01:54:58,866
So my math is kind of like, well,

1674
01:54:59,186 --> 01:55:02,905
there might actually be quite a big difference between L2s.

1675
01:55:03,585 --> 01:55:04,986
But I could be wrong there, though.

1676
01:55:08,025 --> 01:55:13,306
I think another reason to not change it is a kind of a part of the idea.

1677
01:55:14,666 --> 01:55:17,786
Of how of my idea of my conception of how

1678
01:55:18,385 --> 01:55:21,986
hard fork would be most effective is that it's like a very pure experiment.

1679
01:55:21,986 --> 01:55:23,426
So it's like a scientific experiment.

1680
01:55:23,426 --> 01:55:26,746
We're going to try to like control for as many things as possible.

1681
01:55:27,306 --> 01:55:30,626
And you wouldn't want to be in a situation where you have to like explain

1682
01:55:30,626 --> 01:55:31,666
or justify or whatever.

1683
01:55:31,666 --> 01:55:36,226
Someone says, oh, this this is happening on BTC and this is happening on eCash.

1684
01:55:36,226 --> 01:55:39,426
And someone says, well, that's because they changed the L1 block size.

1685
01:55:39,786 --> 01:55:44,186
And it's like maybe it's just better to just keep everything a carbon copy

1686
01:55:44,346 --> 01:55:47,746
identical so that it's only a referendum on

1687
01:55:49,585 --> 01:55:53,346
basically like BIP300, the technology and not anything else.

1688
01:55:53,465 --> 01:55:56,825
And maybe like we don't do like multiple too many experiments at once.

1689
01:55:57,426 --> 01:55:59,025
To some extent, it's inevitable, of course.

1690
01:55:59,025 --> 01:56:01,505
But so that's another.

1691
01:56:03,265 --> 01:56:04,945
Reason to maybe just not do it,

1692
01:56:04,945 --> 01:56:07,546
because it's very easy to just not do something.

1693
01:56:07,546 --> 01:56:09,626
It's also like I thought it was cool.

1694
01:56:10,786 --> 01:56:13,585
No, no. Yeah, I like it, too.

1695
01:56:13,585 --> 01:56:18,186
For as far as like a messaging, you know, making this point.

1696
01:56:18,186 --> 01:56:22,825
But it's also kind of like, well, if one megabyte isn't enough or whatever,

1697
01:56:22,986 --> 01:56:24,385
it's like an inherited problem.

1698
01:56:24,385 --> 01:56:25,945
You know, Bitcoin's got the same problem.

1699
01:56:25,945 --> 01:56:30,106
Why? Yeah. Why do we want to start to compete on multiple dimensions?

1700
01:56:30,465 --> 01:56:33,666
You know, it seems a

1701
01:56:33,866 --> 01:56:36,825
bad, you know, seems like a cost.

1702
01:56:39,145 --> 01:56:40,945
So I think you're right.

1703
01:56:41,186 --> 01:56:42,905
To your point, OK, it's three fifty nine.

1704
01:56:42,905 --> 01:56:46,866
So last chance, Paul, we got one question

1705
01:56:48,065 --> 01:56:48,825
that I just remembered.

1706
01:56:48,825 --> 01:56:55,146
I was looking into the coin types for just kind of routing purposes,

1707
01:56:55,506 --> 01:56:59,146
working on some cross cross chain stuff.

1708
01:56:59,585 --> 01:57:03,986
And I kind of saw like the default

1709
01:57:03,986 --> 01:57:07,305
for BTC was what you were using

1710
01:57:08,585 --> 01:57:10,785
for the BIP 44 coin type.

1711
01:57:10,785 --> 01:57:15,585
So like the actual coin type was zero, which is which is assigned to BTC.

1712
01:57:16,146 --> 01:57:20,626
So like this, like I think it's a slip slip 44 list

1713
01:57:21,185 --> 01:57:26,386
where everyone picks a number, picks an ID for their for their chain.

1714
01:57:27,185 --> 01:57:28,945
What's the plan there?

1715
01:57:28,945 --> 01:57:31,986
Because otherwise you know what you're talking about.

1716
01:57:31,986 --> 01:57:35,146
Yeah. And it's a little bit of a debate about this.

1717
01:57:35,146 --> 01:57:37,226
I have total contempt for all these things.

1718
01:57:37,226 --> 01:57:39,465
And I think we're going to fight to the death.

1719
01:57:39,506 --> 01:57:42,626
Otherwise the other cross chain, if you guys don't.

1720
01:57:42,665 --> 01:57:46,266
Yeah, but actually other people say correctly and they say, well, hey,

1721
01:57:46,266 --> 01:57:50,545
look, this is the standard and this is the why would we why on earth

1722
01:57:50,545 --> 01:57:53,665
would we do anything other than adhere to the standard?

1723
01:57:53,665 --> 01:57:57,386
Because it's like people could like lose coins and it's like whatever.

1724
01:57:57,705 --> 01:58:02,065
So if I had my way, it would just be forget about like M slash 44 slash

1725
01:58:02,065 --> 01:58:05,825
whatever, I would just be doing like M1, M2, M3 or whatever.

1726
01:58:05,825 --> 01:58:07,425
And then the sidechains would restart.

1727
01:58:07,425 --> 01:58:11,626
But there'd be like one one node down the tree

1728
01:58:12,185 --> 01:58:13,506
because I would just be like, forget it.

1729
01:58:13,506 --> 01:58:15,626
And all these other coins are going to we're going to break

1730
01:58:15,626 --> 01:58:17,705
all these other coins anyway.

1731
01:58:17,705 --> 01:58:18,386
That type of thing.

1732
01:58:18,386 --> 01:58:21,585
Let's just start with what you're doing, because I like

1733
01:58:21,626 --> 01:58:23,665
that's what it looks like you're doing.

1734
01:58:23,665 --> 01:58:27,746
Well, that's it depends on whoever I was talking to.

1735
01:58:28,106 --> 01:58:31,346
And so I think the question you're asking is like,

1736
01:58:31,346 --> 01:58:34,065
what is it like the BDK Bitwindow wallet doing or something?

1737
01:58:34,065 --> 01:58:34,665
I don't even know.

1738
01:58:34,665 --> 01:58:37,106
I just I don't know what your protocol is going to be

1739
01:58:37,106 --> 01:58:39,746
in terms of like interchain communication.

1740
01:58:39,746 --> 01:58:43,065
Because I think we're going to have to do it for the chain derivations.

1741
01:58:43,065 --> 01:58:46,425
We're going to have to have the L1.

1742
01:58:46,425 --> 01:58:51,146
Be like the 44 where you have like a coin type or whatever.

1743
01:58:51,146 --> 01:58:52,986
I would advise you to do that.

1744
01:58:52,986 --> 01:58:55,585
Otherwise, you don't play nicely with anyone else.

1745
01:58:56,545 --> 01:58:59,626
Right. And, you know, there'll be a lot of like people like whatever,

1746
01:58:59,626 --> 01:59:02,506
like we're talking like, you know, cake wallet, edge wallet, whatever.

1747
01:59:02,785 --> 01:59:05,266
Who will want it to not be confused?

1748
01:59:05,386 --> 01:59:07,305
Here's the other thing, though, is does it actually matter?

1749
01:59:07,305 --> 01:59:09,545
The world works off of that. Yeah.

1750
01:59:10,866 --> 01:59:12,785
Well, question is, does it actually matter that much?

1751
01:59:12,785 --> 01:59:16,746
Because, well, this is takes a longer time to explain,

1752
01:59:16,746 --> 01:59:19,785
but it's kind of like, so what if you.

1753
01:59:21,146 --> 01:59:25,146
Well, OK, it's like kind of hard to explain, but it's but I don't.

1754
01:59:25,465 --> 01:59:28,305
The short version is I think a lot of this stuff is kind of overblown.

1755
01:59:28,906 --> 01:59:30,465
And but, you know, whatever.

1756
01:59:30,465 --> 01:59:32,866
Like, I do also think.

1757
01:59:32,866 --> 01:59:35,585
If whatever, give the devil his due or that like it's kind of like

1758
01:59:35,866 --> 01:59:39,465
I want to be like, I totally hear you and I agree with you.

1759
01:59:39,465 --> 01:59:41,906
I just think it's one of those things like you just have to do.

1760
01:59:43,545 --> 01:59:44,425
You don't want to.

1761
01:59:44,425 --> 01:59:47,346
You just have to do it and just create issues.

1762
01:59:47,705 --> 01:59:52,746
I think I noticed that for the L2s, I think I got my way where I just said

1763
01:59:52,746 --> 01:59:55,226
it's like the sidechain number hardened.

1764
01:59:55,585 --> 01:59:57,226
Then it's just one, two, three, four, five, six.

1765
01:59:57,226 --> 01:59:58,785
Totally. And that makes sense.

1766
01:59:58,785 --> 02:00:00,866
Point of matter that makes total sense. Yeah.

1767
02:00:01,906 --> 02:00:03,906
So I think I got my way with that one.

1768
02:00:03,906 --> 02:00:07,665
And then for 44, people talk to me out of it because they were like,

1769
02:00:08,065 --> 02:00:10,906
it's literally insane not to adhere to the standard.

1770
02:00:10,906 --> 02:00:13,386
I think. And I agree with them.

1771
02:00:13,945 --> 02:00:16,146
Probably that's going to how that's how it's going to shake out.

1772
02:00:16,305 --> 02:00:17,386
So, yeah, I know I do that.

1773
02:00:17,386 --> 02:00:21,945
I definitely listen to people, people, you know, people debate me all the time.

1774
02:00:21,945 --> 02:00:26,465
I don't always get it right on the very first thought that I have.

1775
02:00:26,465 --> 02:00:29,386
But yeah, I think I couldn't believe, you know, bit 44.

1776
02:00:29,386 --> 02:00:30,986
I don't think it's that good.

1777
02:00:30,986 --> 02:00:33,226
It's not that I have anything wrong with it, but just the fact that

1778
02:00:33,746 --> 02:00:36,425
they're just all so ugly and the whole thing is confusing

1779
02:00:36,425 --> 02:00:38,386
and it becomes its own private key.

1780
02:00:38,386 --> 02:00:41,106
It's like a second private key that you need, which defeats the whole point.

1781
02:00:41,106 --> 02:00:42,026
It's not even about that.

1782
02:00:42,026 --> 02:00:44,026
Like I tell you about the protocol and specification.

1783
02:00:44,026 --> 02:00:47,585
It's just about like to me, it's about consensus, like everyone agreed

1784
02:00:47,626 --> 02:00:50,825
like this is the way it's going to work, like that, that kind of like

1785
02:00:50,825 --> 02:00:52,665
they snuck it past the goalie and it's too late.

1786
02:00:52,665 --> 02:00:55,506
But I think that everyone, because about 90 percent of society

1787
02:00:55,506 --> 02:00:57,465
is not participating in Bitcoin yet.

1788
02:00:57,465 --> 02:00:59,866
And then if you add in the future, people, they're

1789
02:00:59,866 --> 02:01:02,705
that's kind of what I also think of society, but that kind of that's

1790
02:01:02,705 --> 02:01:06,026
still the U.S. kids are all the time, but it doesn't matter.

1791
02:01:06,065 --> 02:01:07,226
That's that's only the T.C.

1792
02:01:07,226 --> 02:01:09,026
Like the EVM world is hot.

1793
02:01:09,026 --> 02:01:10,665
Take a shit like ever.

1794
02:01:10,665 --> 02:01:12,866
That's why you guys are sitting there arguing about why it's so dark.

1795
02:01:12,866 --> 02:01:15,866
No, because in the EVM world, it works really, really well,

1796
02:01:15,906 --> 02:01:17,026
like really, really well.

1797
02:01:17,026 --> 02:01:20,545
So like not adhering to something that already works really, really well.

1798
02:01:20,545 --> 02:01:24,906
It doesn't really make sense to me since we're doing it differently.

1799
02:01:25,346 --> 02:01:29,665
I think I was just disappointed by how we how we did all this wacky stuff.

1800
02:01:29,665 --> 02:01:32,506
And I just think that.

1801
02:01:32,506 --> 02:01:35,266
I don't know, I just I think adhering to made up standards

1802
02:01:35,266 --> 02:01:37,065
is how we got into this shithole we're in right now.

1803
02:01:37,065 --> 02:01:39,305
But yeah, it's not I'm not arguing for the standard.

1804
02:01:39,305 --> 02:01:41,065
I'm arguing for consensus.

1805
02:01:41,065 --> 02:01:41,986
Like we should all agree.

1806
02:01:41,986 --> 02:01:43,906
Well, there's no such thing as you can't combine it.

1807
02:01:43,906 --> 02:01:45,106
You can't even define consensus.

1808
02:01:45,106 --> 02:01:47,506
It's just a bunch of retarded, selfish minors.

1809
02:01:47,506 --> 02:01:48,705
Paul, question.

1810
02:01:48,705 --> 02:01:50,026
All right. Last question.

1811
02:01:50,026 --> 02:01:50,906
Last question of the day.

1812
02:01:50,906 --> 02:01:53,626
Can you explain to me and like as as like a serious

1813
02:01:54,026 --> 02:01:57,626
act, like I'm not going to be convinced by whatever hand wavy bullshit

1814
02:01:57,626 --> 02:01:58,825
the Maxis throw up.

1815
02:01:58,825 --> 02:02:03,465
Give me a reason why smaller blocks like why the fuck are you going smaller?

1816
02:02:03,465 --> 02:02:06,545
Like what's the point other than to arbitrarily force the fee rate up

1817
02:02:06,746 --> 02:02:08,425
to make it seem like people are making money?

1818
02:02:08,425 --> 02:02:09,785
What is the reason beyond that?

1819
02:02:09,785 --> 02:02:12,986
Yes, Joe, Joe and I just discussed that it does.

1820
02:02:13,626 --> 02:02:16,906
It makes running a full node cheaper and easier.

1821
02:02:16,906 --> 02:02:21,545
One hundred and twenty eight terabyte fucking micro SD chips today, Paul.

1822
02:02:22,185 --> 02:02:24,986
It also makes it easier to hide the physical location of the node,

1823
02:02:24,986 --> 02:02:26,585
which is interesting.

1824
02:02:26,585 --> 02:02:29,945
And if you like are a paranoid person and you think, oh, the government's

1825
02:02:29,945 --> 02:02:32,585
going to try to shut all this down and they're going to make a list of

1826
02:02:32,585 --> 02:02:36,026
the access to Bitcoin right now, Paul, I know.

1827
02:02:36,026 --> 02:02:38,825
All I'm trying to do is say is you got to step out of this

1828
02:02:38,825 --> 02:02:40,906
chamber that these people put you in all the time.

1829
02:02:40,906 --> 02:02:43,146
It's going to it's going to really fuck your project up, dude.

1830
02:02:43,146 --> 02:02:46,585
Like you had a whole bunch of small, blocking, brain dead, fucking retards

1831
02:02:46,585 --> 02:02:47,545
up here all day long.

1832
02:02:47,545 --> 02:02:49,146
And I respect everyone's take.

1833
02:02:49,146 --> 02:02:50,506
But you guys are just wrong, man.

1834
02:02:51,305 --> 02:02:55,146
Like you should be going for the cheapest possible L1 transaction fee.

1835
02:02:55,146 --> 02:02:55,866
And that's that.

1836
02:02:55,866 --> 02:02:59,305
Stop trying to make Bitcoin standards or dog shit.

1837
02:02:59,305 --> 02:03:00,185
Don't copy them.

1838
02:03:00,185 --> 02:03:01,626
Do not copy them or you will fail.

1839
02:03:02,506 --> 02:03:05,465
Thirty two megabytes is way better than two megabytes, my dude.

1840
02:03:05,465 --> 02:03:07,465
And it's the same thing on the node runner.

1841
02:03:07,465 --> 02:03:08,346
They're not going to give a fuck.

1842
02:03:10,425 --> 02:03:13,226
I think the thinking was kind of like you could beat these people at their

1843
02:03:13,226 --> 02:03:16,346
own game where they say, OK, the reason BTC is the best is we have

1844
02:03:16,346 --> 02:03:19,465
actually have the smallest block size, unlike BCH, unlike BSV.

1845
02:03:19,465 --> 02:03:22,665
Yeah. And if I went to fucking Philadelphia and started argue with meth heads,

1846
02:03:22,665 --> 02:03:23,866
I could win that argument, too.

1847
02:03:23,866 --> 02:03:24,425
What's the point?

1848
02:03:26,106 --> 02:03:28,665
Then it's kind of like, well, then this one would be even smaller.

1849
02:03:28,665 --> 02:03:30,825
So that was kind of like part of the.

1850
02:03:30,825 --> 02:03:32,585
I think you're doing yourself a disservice here.

1851
02:03:32,585 --> 02:03:36,346
I think Drivechains plus cheap fees on the L1 is the killer app.

1852
02:03:36,346 --> 02:03:40,746
I think if you expect people to pay a dollar and two dollars for your

1853
02:03:40,746 --> 02:03:43,626
worthless altcoin chain, you're going to lose day one.

1854
02:03:43,626 --> 02:03:44,185
Don't do that.

1855
02:03:45,785 --> 02:03:48,906
OK, but there are still very small blocks.

1856
02:03:48,906 --> 02:03:51,386
No, stop arguing with fucking retards on Twitter, too.

1857
02:03:51,386 --> 02:03:53,065
Jesus. I am on Twitter.

1858
02:03:53,065 --> 02:03:53,945
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

1859
02:03:53,945 --> 02:03:56,585
You guys spend all day long arguing with the dumbest motherfuckers.

1860
02:03:56,585 --> 02:03:57,785
Doesn't mean that you're right.

1861
02:03:57,785 --> 02:03:59,065
There is. I am right.

1862
02:03:59,065 --> 02:03:59,705
Nick Sabo.

1863
02:03:59,705 --> 02:04:00,986
I did this seven years ago.

1864
02:04:00,986 --> 02:04:02,585
Paul, you're going to make all the same mistakes.

1865
02:04:02,585 --> 02:04:07,386
Listen to this fucking transactions with short radio waves that were used during the Cold War.

1866
02:04:07,386 --> 02:04:08,665
Nobody's ever going to do that.

1867
02:04:08,665 --> 02:04:12,266
I think you're not a single person ever in a situation where you don't need the Internet.

1868
02:04:12,266 --> 02:04:12,986
That's very cool.

1869
02:04:12,986 --> 02:04:14,266
Nobody's ever going to do that.

1870
02:04:14,266 --> 02:04:17,146
If that's the case, your whole family's dead in a ditch.

1871
02:04:18,906 --> 02:04:25,305
Why would anyone use any of the big block sidechains if you already have a main chain that has

1872
02:04:25,305 --> 02:04:26,185
high throughput?

1873
02:04:26,185 --> 02:04:26,746
It makes no sense.

1874
02:04:26,746 --> 02:04:27,866
There is no high throughput.

1875
02:04:27,866 --> 02:04:28,825
What are you talking about?

1876
02:04:28,825 --> 02:04:30,506
Show me where is the high throughput in the room with us?

1877
02:04:30,506 --> 02:04:33,146
No, but that was your premise that you did that.

1878
02:04:33,146 --> 02:04:34,425
I want you to have the high throughput.

1879
02:04:34,425 --> 02:04:35,626
No, you're in your chain.

1880
02:04:35,626 --> 02:04:40,026
I'm telling you, you're going to cuck your entire system by expecting people to be paying

1881
02:04:40,026 --> 02:04:41,866
dollars for a worthless altcoin.

1882
02:04:41,866 --> 02:04:43,146
Technically, that's just the truth.

1883
02:04:44,026 --> 02:04:45,305
Like you need to be pennies.

1884
02:04:45,305 --> 02:04:46,746
It needs to be pennies, Paul.

1885
02:04:46,746 --> 02:04:48,266
OK, pennies.

1886
02:04:48,986 --> 02:04:50,106
On the L2, on the L2.

1887
02:04:50,106 --> 02:04:50,986
No, on the L1.

1888
02:04:50,986 --> 02:04:52,185
It's going to be 1 to 10 pennies.

1889
02:04:53,305 --> 02:04:53,866
All right.

1890
02:04:53,866 --> 02:04:56,026
It's fucking adoption and you don't deserve to survive.

1891
02:04:56,026 --> 02:04:58,906
You can't just hijack the fee rate up and expect it to win.

1892
02:04:59,785 --> 02:05:00,825
We got to love the passion.

1893
02:05:01,785 --> 02:05:03,866
Yeah, I think that's the kind of guy we don't want involved.

1894
02:05:03,866 --> 02:05:07,305
Yeah, that's why I've outperformed you your whole life in this space while you sit on

1895
02:05:07,305 --> 02:05:11,866
Twitter arguing about glass houses and shit with a bunch of retarded red eyes.

1896
02:05:11,866 --> 02:05:12,825
Fucking retards, OK?

1897
02:05:13,866 --> 02:05:14,425
OK, all right.

1898
02:05:14,425 --> 02:05:17,866
Hey, but when you joined like the last two weeks, you were like thinking that I'm like

1899
02:05:17,866 --> 02:05:18,986
anti ordinals or whatever.

1900
02:05:18,986 --> 02:05:22,185
So I was just making sure you were aware of the fact that you're going to have them on

1901
02:05:22,185 --> 02:05:25,386
your chain and you should have a wallet and you should be approaching companies like experts

1902
02:05:25,386 --> 02:05:29,705
to make sure that people can like, you know, create markets on the L1 for that stuff that's

1903
02:05:29,705 --> 02:05:31,465
already going to be there because you're forking the data.

1904
02:05:33,305 --> 02:05:35,785
OK, well, there you go.

1905
02:05:36,585 --> 02:05:38,346
I think we'll have to leave it there.

1906
02:05:38,346 --> 02:05:39,705
That was great, though.

1907
02:05:39,705 --> 02:05:41,226
Always slower start.

1908
02:05:41,226 --> 02:05:44,585
We had a good start this time, but usually then by the time we get to the end, there's

1909
02:05:44,585 --> 02:05:48,986
always it's always it's so passionate, you know, you can see that you have to listen

1910
02:05:48,986 --> 02:05:52,346
to a bunch of fucking maxi retards who have never done anything in this space except for

1911
02:05:52,346 --> 02:05:52,986
use Bitcoin.

1912
02:05:52,986 --> 02:05:54,425
Like, I don't know, it's great.

1913
02:05:55,945 --> 02:05:56,425
All right.

1914
02:05:56,425 --> 02:05:56,665
Yeah.

1915
02:05:56,665 --> 02:05:59,146
But, you know, Bitcoin and Bitcoin, number one, it's number one.

1916
02:05:59,146 --> 02:06:01,146
That doesn't mean you should learn everything else, though.

1917
02:06:01,146 --> 02:06:02,346
Everything else is here as well.

1918
02:06:02,346 --> 02:06:05,386
You guys got to understand the whole space, not just the little bubble you live in.

1919
02:06:07,305 --> 02:06:09,065
That's why you're talking about you need users, right?

1920
02:06:09,065 --> 02:06:10,106
That's how you get them.

1921
02:06:10,106 --> 02:06:11,626
You go, you meet them where they are.

1922
02:06:11,626 --> 02:06:16,185
You don't tell the users to come and get across the lake and make a build a boat and get to

1923
02:06:16,185 --> 02:06:16,425
you.

1924
02:06:16,425 --> 02:06:17,785
You don't say that to the users.

1925
02:06:17,785 --> 02:06:21,146
You go to the users and say, hey, users, here's everything you wanted.

1926
02:06:21,146 --> 02:06:21,866
We gave it to you.

1927
02:06:22,906 --> 02:06:24,746
And they don't want small blocks.

1928
02:06:24,746 --> 02:06:26,746
Look at how many people make transactions on Bitcoin.

1929
02:06:26,746 --> 02:06:28,026
It's not y'all motherfuckers.

1930
02:06:28,026 --> 02:06:29,545
It's the ordinals motherfuckers.

1931
02:06:29,545 --> 02:06:32,026
So I don't know what users you're trying to attract here.

1932
02:06:32,026 --> 02:06:32,425
That's all.

1933
02:06:34,346 --> 02:06:35,065
They're not on Bitcoin.

1934
02:06:35,065 --> 02:06:36,665
All right, good point.

1935
02:06:36,665 --> 02:06:40,266
We got to, you know, we want users.

1936
02:06:40,266 --> 02:06:41,866
But some users want different things.

1937
02:06:41,866 --> 02:06:43,465
So not all users are alike.

1938
02:06:43,465 --> 02:06:46,746
And not all users are alike every day in the morning.

1939
02:06:48,425 --> 02:06:51,305
Go ask them for an explorer link of their last transaction on Bitcoin.

1940
02:06:51,305 --> 02:06:54,425
And they can't even find one because it's been five years since any of these faggots

1941
02:06:54,425 --> 02:06:57,545
made an L1 transaction because all they do is hold it in Robinhood.

1942
02:06:57,545 --> 02:07:00,185
Why is their opinion valid in any argument?

1943
02:07:03,226 --> 02:07:03,866
All right.

1944
02:07:03,866 --> 02:07:05,465
Well, I think we should leave it there, though.

1945
02:07:06,346 --> 02:07:07,465
So this has been fun.

1946
02:07:07,465 --> 02:07:11,785
Hey, come back again next week.

1947
02:07:13,785 --> 02:07:14,665
Only if Joe's here.

1948
02:07:14,665 --> 02:07:16,026
I want to make sure Joe's here next week.

1949
02:07:18,825 --> 02:07:19,386
All right.

1950
02:07:19,386 --> 02:07:20,746
Somehow it sounds very ominous.

1951
02:07:21,866 --> 02:07:23,386
But OK, great.

1952
02:07:23,386 --> 02:07:24,746
So this has been really fun.

1953
02:07:25,705 --> 02:07:26,185
Thanks, everyone.

1954
02:07:26,185 --> 02:07:30,106
I was arguing for the higher block size, actually.

1955
02:07:31,065 --> 02:07:32,425
Yeah, but we still need you guys here.

1956
02:07:32,425 --> 02:07:33,465
You know, you guys got to show up.

1957
02:07:33,465 --> 02:07:35,386
We got to have a nice argument.

1958
02:07:35,386 --> 02:07:37,305
Anything to Shamari.

1959
02:07:37,305 --> 02:07:38,425
Ask for technical advice.

1960
02:07:38,425 --> 02:07:39,305
Please, God save us.

1961
02:07:42,026 --> 02:07:44,665
It's funny that you don't have a telegram, Shamari.

1962
02:07:44,665 --> 02:07:46,906
I mean, all the cool kids are doing it.

1963
02:07:46,906 --> 02:07:52,185
They do KYC, you know, if you want a telegram, you have to have a phone number.

1964
02:07:52,185 --> 02:07:52,906
It's true.

1965
02:07:52,906 --> 02:07:53,305
It's that.

1966
02:07:53,305 --> 02:07:54,026
Yeah, that's true.

1967
02:07:54,026 --> 02:07:54,346
Yeah.

1968
02:07:54,346 --> 02:07:54,986
Good point.

1969
02:07:54,986 --> 02:07:55,226
Yeah.

1970
02:07:55,226 --> 02:07:59,866
I know a couple of people who switched the signal off of they got off telegram and they

1971
02:07:59,866 --> 02:08:00,986
switched the signal.

1972
02:08:00,986 --> 02:08:02,906
Yeah, I'm a bad guy for sure.

1973
02:08:02,906 --> 02:08:03,406
Yeah.

1974
02:08:04,266 --> 02:08:04,506
All right.

1975
02:08:05,305 --> 02:08:06,506
We'll make a Drivechain signal.

1976
02:08:06,506 --> 02:08:07,785
You know, I can do Discord.

1977
02:08:07,785 --> 02:08:08,746
I have a Discord.

1978
02:08:08,746 --> 02:08:10,346
If you guys do a Discord channel, I'll be there.

1979
02:08:12,026 --> 02:08:12,906
All right, cool.

1980
02:08:12,906 --> 02:08:13,406
Okay.

1981
02:08:13,945 --> 02:08:14,906
Thanks, everyone.

1982
02:08:14,906 --> 02:08:16,506
Thanks to everyone who participated.

1983
02:08:16,506 --> 02:08:17,386
See everyone later.

1984
02:08:17,386 --> 02:08:19,386
Have a nice rest of your day, everyone.

1985
02:08:20,346 --> 02:08:20,906
Goodbye.

1986
02:08:20,906 --> 02:08:22,266
Thanks.