1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:19,120 Richard actually has me doing two things, so I got a cool presentation on my prediction 2 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:28,160 markets work and my goals for that, but then he wanted me to do a Drivechain Q&A or sidechains 3 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:34,920 Q&A, and so that's kind of what, this is one, right, it's the earlier one, so I hope there 4 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,760 are some good questions, but otherwise I can kind of just give the same talk that I gave 5 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:41,760 at Breaking on Bitcoin yesterday. 6 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:54,640 What would you prefer, because I can just kick off with a couple of questions, so let's just start. 7 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:58,640 How many here know about what sidechains are and how to change them? 8 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:04,640 So it might be nice just to start with a brief introduction on what they are, and then anyone who 9 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:06,640 else has questions can jump in. 10 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,520 Yeah, that's good, that was a great first question. 11 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:18,520 So the sidechains are very similar to altcoins, where you use a completely different piece of independent 12 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:23,520 software, although the trick is that sometimes you would not want it to be totally independent, but the 13 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,520 point is you have the freedom to make something that's completely different and make all of the 14 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:32,520 mistakes that you want and wreck everything, or come up with something really cool. 15 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:40,400 So it's a kind of freedom, that's the shtick for it, that it's like permissionless innovation, and if you 16 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:44,400 want larger blocks, or you want these weird, terry-complete smart contracts or something, or any other 17 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:52,400 crazy idea that you have, you can do that, but these, unlike altcoins, they respect the 21 million coin 18 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:58,400 limit in Bitcoin, so they all share the same 21 million coins, the coins are mined on Bitcoin, 19 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:04,280 whatever the mainchain is, but in this case, in this framework, it would be Bitcoin Core, 20 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:12,280 and the coins are mined there, and then you send them over to this new piece of software that receives them, 21 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:17,280 and then over there you can play around with them and give them to new owners, spend them on weird 22 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:24,280 transactions, do crazy stuff, prediction market stuff, or rent hard drive space, or something like that, 23 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:31,160 and then the new owners can, whenever they want, they can send them back, and there's a lot of details 24 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:37,160 on making that work without it being too insecure, or without the whole thing immediately regressing 25 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:43,160 to just being a giant hard fork of Bitcoin or these other things, there's a lot of nuances to that, 26 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:50,160 but basically it's altcoins that don't have an independent coin, they just have the same 21 million 27 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:57,040 coins, and so they're a kind of response to interest in altcoins, they have a long history, 28 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:03,040 first of all, which is kind of interesting, so maybe we'll talk about it if people are interested, 29 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:09,040 but the idea of the sidechain is really a response to the idea of the altcoin, and just say, 30 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:14,040 well, we can do exactly what that thing does, but just on Bitcoin, and then you can go off, 31 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:18,040 people have disagreements over what to do, they can have their own piece of software, 32 00:03:18,920 --> 00:03:24,920 so that's kind of the very short version, and a clever thing you can do is have the sidechains 33 00:03:24,920 --> 00:03:30,920 be merge-mined the way Namecoin was, so that even though there's no coins being minted over there, 34 00:03:30,920 --> 00:03:37,920 they still get all of the hash rate of Bitcoin, so the goal is to have it be something 35 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:43,920 that just completely replaces altcoins, kind of, although I'm not sure, they wouldn't replace 36 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:52,800 like a community, or different set of owners, or things like that, but it's a kind of, 37 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,800 it tries to do a lot of things at once, so it tries to do permissionless innovation, 38 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:01,800 but it also tries to protect the integrity of Bitcoin by not making it too vulnerable 39 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:06,800 to these kind of, to caring about what other people think it should be, because they just say, 40 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,800 well, right now, if you want to change Bitcoin, you have to change it for everyone, 41 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,680 it's this consensus system, everyone needs consensus down to the last byte, 42 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:17,680 but with this, you could just say, well, if you want to do something different, 43 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:22,680 you just do it on your own sidechain, and it's no different from installing apps on your phone, 44 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:29,680 and the apps almost never affect each other, and so that is the goal for sidechains as well, 45 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,680 that you would not have any weird sidechains that broke the sidechain system, 46 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:39,560 but that you would have this ecosystem of sort of a freedom, basically, 47 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,560 where anyone could create a piece of software, or use a piece of software, 48 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:49,560 so it's pretty important, it adds a kind of universality to Bitcoin, which is pretty ideal, 49 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,560 also, yes, oh yeah, do you have a question, real question, let's do it. 50 00:04:53,560 --> 00:05:01,560 I wonder, is Drivechain fundamentally different from sidechain, or is it your implementation of sidechain? 51 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,440 Yeah, I usually explain it as being my implementation of sidechains, 52 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:12,440 but I suppose there are, for a long time, Blockstream wrote a paper in 2014, 53 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:18,440 and then they did some work on sidechains, but then they kind of really stopped working on them for a while, 54 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:25,440 and then I published the design for Drivechain in 2015, and then in late 2015, like November, 55 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:29,440 and then in 2016, I kind of worked on it to make it real, 56 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:35,320 and so then, for a long time, I was introducing it as the implementation of sidechains, 57 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:39,320 but now Blockstream has sort of caught up a little bit, 58 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:43,320 and they kind of have done a little bit more on making their original thing real, 59 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:48,320 and their thing is, their design is a little different, 60 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:54,320 but I think they're very similar, actually, but I think mine is actually a lot better, 61 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:58,320 and for a couple of reasons that I could go through, but they're a little dry, 62 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:04,200 but one thing about theirs is that it's a relatively simple point, 63 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:11,200 and it's that it only works for sidechains that have very similar block format, 64 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:17,200 transaction format, and hashing functions, whereas mine just works for anything. 65 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:24,200 In fact, I think it would be totally impossible to get theirs to work for something like MimbleWimble, 66 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:26,080 but I'm not sure about that. 67 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:30,080 It might be possible, but with mine, it wouldn't be possible. 68 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:31,080 More questions? 69 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:32,080 Anyone? 70 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:33,080 Yeah? 71 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:41,080 It's a sidechain, more like a sandbox, where you make use of the link of blockchain, 72 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,080 but you can still experiment with it like a sandbox. 73 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:49,080 Yes, so yeah, the question is like, is it sort of like a sandbox? 74 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,080 Yeah, I think the answer is yes. 75 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:57,960 I mean, someone might ask, like, why don't we already have a sandbox, 76 00:06:57,960 --> 00:06:59,960 which is just make your own altcoin or something, 77 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:05,960 but the people who use that argument, I think that there's something that's wrong about that 78 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,960 that's very difficult to articulate, but I think I have a decent way, 79 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:13,960 which is that it's kind of as if you were going out to dinner with a bunch of friends, 80 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,960 and then you would say, even though there's nothing, 81 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,960 like no one's holding a gun to your head and forcing you to go to anywhere, 82 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:25,840 you don't want to go, one person, one friend can't like unilaterally defect 83 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,840 and just say, well, I want to try going to this place, 84 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,840 because the important thing is that you get to the same restaurant as everyone else. 85 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:32,840 That's like a key second. 86 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,840 You want to go to a good restaurant that you like, 87 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,840 but you really want to go to the same restaurant that everyone else is going to. 88 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,840 And in that sense, the altcoins are, you know, they're a non-starter. 89 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:44,840 They're totally useless. 90 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:46,840 You're starting this thing up completely alone, 91 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,920 and then you're going to get a lot of people who are not in it for the long haul. 92 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,920 You get the wrong type of early adopter in many cases. 93 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,920 And so the altcoins are really not a true sandbox, 94 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,920 but this would be, because this would be real Bitcoin on the line, 95 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,920 and if anyone steals them, or if something is wrong with your node, 96 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,920 or something happens, you know, they would then be, 97 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,920 you'd be able to exchange them for actual real Bitcoin. 98 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,920 So you would inherit, it's kind of more like going to like a food court 99 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,000 or something where everyone can go to their own place, 100 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,000 but you're still all in the same, 101 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,000 you can still sit at the same table or something like that. 102 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:25,000 So yeah, that, it adds a sandbox dimension that is not, 103 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,000 is really not there right now. 104 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:29,000 Yes. 105 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,000 Just a quick follow-on on that. 106 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:35,000 If you're not a Bitcoin maximalist and you just really like altcoins, 107 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:39,000 what would be the advantage for you to actually do right in this? 108 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:40,000 Yeah. 109 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,000 Is it, just a side question on that, 110 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,080 is it, since you're an economist, 111 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:51,080 is it that Bitcoin could provide certain security 112 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,080 and be a reserve? 113 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,080 Is there a real advantage to that? 114 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,080 Well, people use the word security in many, many different ways. 115 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:00,080 Sometimes we talk about hash rates, 116 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,080 sometimes we talk about whatever, 117 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:05,080 not getting your funds stolen, or something like that. 118 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,080 But I think one reason is actually, 119 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,160 it's kind of a strange, 120 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,160 it's horrible to forecast the death of the altcoins, 121 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,160 because you're just wrong every year, 122 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:18,160 and every year you just look crazier and crazier. 123 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,160 But I think that one reason would really just be self-defense, 124 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:27,160 because if some blockchain makes the jump to universality first, 125 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:31,160 you would think, why wouldn't it instantly replace 126 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,160 all of the other blockchains? 127 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:35,160 Now you can imagine a couple of reasons why 128 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,160 it wouldn't happen very quickly, 129 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,240 and that it may not happen at all, 130 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:40,240 and there may still be a place 131 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:42,240 for lots of different competing projects. 132 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:43,240 But on the other hand, 133 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,240 there are strong network effects when you use money, 134 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,240 and there are these people, 135 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,240 it's a little easier for me, 136 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,240 because I grew up learning English, 137 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,240 and even though I travel all around the world, 138 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:55,240 a lot of people speak English, 139 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,240 just because it's just so convenient to have, 140 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:02,240 having one common language is just so helpful. 141 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:07,320 In fact, I saw on this trip that I was in, 142 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,320 there was someone who was clearly German, 143 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,320 and someone who was clearly Portuguese, 144 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,320 and they were having a business meeting, 145 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:16,320 and they were speaking English, of course. 146 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,320 Everyone uses basically the same QWERTY keyboard, 147 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,320 even if they use Dvorak or something 148 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,320 to change the key layout, 149 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,320 and we just have these things, 150 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,320 these standardizations are just very efficient. 151 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:31,400 So you think over time, 152 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,400 it would be drawn towards just one thing, 153 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,400 and you would not want to be in a position 154 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,400 where since investing is involved, 155 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:41,400 people would be looking to the future, 156 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:42,400 and they'd be thinking, 157 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:48,400 would I rather have all this Dogecoin or something, 158 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,400 or would I rather have a new car or something like that? 159 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,400 I can sell this digital currency that I have 160 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,400 and get something real. 161 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:58,400 And the only reason you wouldn't would be 162 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,480 if you really thought that it had a pretty good, 163 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:03,480 either a future of appreciation 164 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,480 or just kind of being useful as money. 165 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:08,480 And so self-defense, I think, is a reason, 166 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,480 is that if you like your altcoin project, 167 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:13,480 and there are other reasons as well, 168 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,480 like if you just want to plug into the Bitcoin community 169 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:17,480 and try to get more users, 170 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:19,480 try to get better, more honest feedback 171 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,480 about the things that you're doing right, 172 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,480 because the altcoin world is beset 173 00:11:25,560 --> 00:11:27,560 by crazy marketing 174 00:11:27,560 --> 00:11:34,560 and just generally a very confusing media ecology, 175 00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:36,560 to phrase it in some way. 176 00:11:36,560 --> 00:11:37,560 It's very hard to figure out, 177 00:11:37,560 --> 00:11:39,560 do people really like this project? 178 00:11:39,560 --> 00:11:41,560 Are they just pumping the project? 179 00:11:41,560 --> 00:11:42,560 What is going on? 180 00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:43,560 So there are a couple reasons. 181 00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:45,560 If you've got a really good project 182 00:11:45,560 --> 00:11:47,560 that's underappreciated, 183 00:11:47,560 --> 00:11:49,560 this is your chance to prove 184 00:11:49,560 --> 00:11:52,560 that you really do care about it 185 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,640 and not the speculative return. 186 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:57,640 So there are a couple reasons like that, 187 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,640 but I think self-defense is really the main one, 188 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:02,640 is that, well, if you don't, 189 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:04,640 then someone will just copy this project 190 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:06,640 and then it'll be tough. 191 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:07,640 You'll be the guy who's, 192 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,640 you'll be the last guy who doesn't speak English 193 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:13,640 just trying to hold out against everyone else. 194 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:15,640 I don't, maybe, I don't know. 195 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,640 That might work, but maybe not. 196 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:18,640 Yes? 197 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:20,720 About one year ago, 198 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:22,720 I was trying to understand 199 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,720 the details of sidechains or Drivechains, 200 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:27,720 and I couldn't 201 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,720 because I found a lot of descriptions 202 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:32,720 but without every detail 203 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:34,720 that helped me understand 204 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,720 if there is no any detail 205 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:39,720 that prevents to do the same, 206 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:40,720 because, you know, 207 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:44,720 sometimes one detail can make it not a good solution. 208 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,720 So do you have some description 209 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:48,800 without the detail? 210 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:50,800 Yeah, I think if you're interested in that, 211 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:52,800 we do have, 212 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:53,800 now we have, 213 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:55,800 so we've tried to make it better and better. 214 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:56,800 It's very interesting 215 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:57,800 because, you know, 216 00:12:57,800 --> 00:12:58,800 sometimes people complain, 217 00:12:58,800 --> 00:12:59,800 like, oh, this is too long. 218 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:00,800 I get that complaint all the time. 219 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:01,800 So people complain, 220 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:02,800 not enough detail, 221 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:03,800 too much detail, whatever. 222 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:05,800 But I understand what you're saying. 223 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:06,800 And now we have, 224 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:08,800 if you go to drivechain.info, 225 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:10,800 we actually have the diff. 226 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:11,800 So we have all the code changes 227 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:13,800 to the latest release of Bitcoin Core 228 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:15,800 in one place. 229 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:17,880 So that would be the optimal amount 230 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:19,880 of just all the literal details 231 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:21,880 are exactly there. 232 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:22,880 I don't know 233 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:24,880 if that's not necessarily 234 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:26,880 a kind of an explanation, 235 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:27,880 but we also have the, 236 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:29,880 I also have a BIP 237 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:30,880 that you can see 238 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:31,880 if you go to the, 239 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:33,880 if you go to drivechain.info 240 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:34,880 and you go to GitHub 241 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:35,880 and then you will be able 242 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:37,880 to find it in docs section 243 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:39,880 where I have pull requested 244 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:40,880 into the BIPs repository 245 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:42,880 for Bitcoin Core. 246 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,960 And so that has much more detail. 247 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:46,960 And I don't remember exactly 248 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:48,960 when did I write that. 249 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:50,960 It was probably January of this year. 250 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:52,960 So if you tried last year, 251 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:54,960 then that wasn't there. 252 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:55,960 But now both of those things 253 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:56,960 are there now. 254 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:57,960 So maybe that will help you. 255 00:13:57,960 --> 00:13:58,960 I don't know. 256 00:13:58,960 --> 00:13:59,960 Are you more interested in, 257 00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:00,960 because we have every line 258 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:01,960 of code changed 259 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:02,960 or altered or deleted 260 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:03,960 or whatever. 261 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:04,960 So that's one thing 262 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:05,960 you could find 263 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:06,960 if you scroll down 264 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:07,960 on the main page. 265 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:08,960 And then also the BIP 266 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,960 is like the explanation 267 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,040 for Bitcoin programmers. 268 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:18,040 And then I also recorded a video 269 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:19,040 that's also on drivechain.info 270 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:21,040 about the misconceptions 271 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:22,040 that I think 272 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:23,040 and about the kind of, 273 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,040 has more of an explanation feel. 274 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,040 So those are all kind of advanced. 275 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,040 And that video is two hours long. 276 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,040 It has like 200 slides in it 277 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:35,040 or something. 278 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,040 So those have a lot of detail. 279 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:39,040 And one of those 280 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,040 might be helpful for you, 281 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:42,120 I think. 282 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:43,120 Maybe. 283 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:44,120 So right now 284 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:45,120 you see that probably 285 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,120 there is no any detail 286 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:48,120 that can make 287 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,120 this project fail. 288 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:51,120 I mean, 289 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:52,120 you don't see such things. 290 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:53,120 Well, I wouldn't say that. 291 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:54,120 But I think you're kind of 292 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:55,120 getting at the idea 293 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:56,120 that you don't, 294 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:57,120 it's not really until 295 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:58,120 you release, 296 00:14:58,120 --> 00:14:59,120 go through 297 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:00,120 and write everything 298 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:01,120 that you actually 299 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:02,120 check and see 300 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:03,120 that you've actually 301 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:04,120 thought everything through. 302 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:05,120 But yeah, 303 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:06,120 I think there's been, 304 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:07,120 this has actually been 305 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:09,120 in a kind of peer review state 306 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:10,120 for a very long time 307 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,200 despite how it may appear. 308 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:14,200 But people have been 309 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:15,200 kind of talking about this 310 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:16,200 for a while. 311 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:17,200 And I don't, 312 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:18,200 you know, 313 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:19,200 we have a code 314 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,200 and we have a unit test. 315 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:22,200 And I really wanted to, 316 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:23,200 before this trip, 317 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:24,200 I really wanted to release 318 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:25,200 an actual test net 319 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:26,200 that has a GUI, 320 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:28,200 has a cool little GUI 321 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,200 that someone made. 322 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,200 And it's a, 323 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,200 so we have kind of, 324 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:35,200 we have kind of done 325 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,200 the whole thing 326 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:38,200 as far as like 327 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:39,200 minimum viable product 328 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:40,280 or whatever phrase 329 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,280 you would like to use. 330 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:43,280 So I don't think 331 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:44,280 there's any, 332 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:45,280 you know, 333 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:46,280 sidechains are definitely, 334 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,280 sidechains are definitely different. 335 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:49,280 And so I don't know 336 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:50,280 if everyone would want 337 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:51,280 to use them. 338 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:52,280 And absolutely, 339 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:53,280 it's in a very similar situation 340 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:54,280 to the lightning network 341 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:56,280 where only a very special type 342 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:57,280 of person should be 343 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:58,280 using them first. 344 00:15:58,280 --> 00:15:59,280 You know, 345 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:00,280 but there's like a ramp 346 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:01,280 up here where 347 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:02,280 if people use them 348 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:03,280 and then better 349 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:04,280 and better 350 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:05,280 user interface, 351 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:06,280 make sure that 352 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:07,280 there's no bugs, 353 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:08,280 stuff like that. 354 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:09,360 Because this is described 355 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:10,360 as a low level trust. 356 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:11,360 It's not described 357 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:12,360 as something trustless. 358 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:13,360 I mean, 359 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:14,360 to send the coins 360 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:15,360 to sidechain and back, 361 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:16,360 right? 362 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:17,360 There is, 363 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:18,360 I think, 364 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:19,360 you can recast it 365 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:20,360 because I would like, 366 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:21,360 I actually would like 367 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:22,360 certain sidechains 368 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:23,360 never to exist 369 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:24,360 and I would want them 370 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:25,360 to not be 371 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:26,360 in the ecosystem at all. 372 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:27,360 And so, 373 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:28,360 you can recast it 374 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:29,360 as saying that 375 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:30,360 miners will care enough, 376 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:31,360 as long as it's 377 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:32,360 very easy, 378 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:33,360 psychologically, 379 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:34,360 they will care enough 380 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:35,360 to send the coins 381 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:36,360 to sidechain 382 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:37,360 and back. 383 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:38,440 So, 384 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:39,440 it's very easy, 385 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:40,440 psychologically, 386 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:41,440 for them to figure out 387 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:42,440 what's going on, 388 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:43,440 which is a very big 389 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:44,440 kind of, 390 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:45,440 that's a big thing, 391 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:46,440 although I have, 392 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:47,440 you know, 393 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:48,440 design elements 394 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:49,440 to address that. 395 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:50,440 But I realize 396 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:51,440 that's kind of a vague thing 397 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:52,440 to just kind of say 398 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:53,440 in the middle 399 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:54,440 of an explanation. 400 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:55,440 So, 401 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:56,440 we can come back to that 402 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:57,440 if you want. 403 00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:58,440 But, 404 00:16:58,440 --> 00:16:59,440 as long as miners 405 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:00,440 can kind of 406 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:01,440 psychologically process 407 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:02,440 what this sidechain 408 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:03,440 is supposed to be doing 409 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:04,440 and see, 410 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:05,440 check to see 411 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:06,440 if it's doing that thing, 412 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:07,520 then I'm curating 413 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:08,520 the list 414 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:09,520 of which sidechains 415 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:10,520 are on 416 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:11,520 and which are off. 417 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:12,520 And, 418 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:13,520 when you 419 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:14,520 recast it that way, 420 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:15,520 I'm just assuming 421 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:16,520 that they will want 422 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:17,520 the ones that make 423 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:18,520 the exchange rate 424 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:19,520 go up 425 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:20,520 and stay up 426 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:21,520 to be on 427 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:22,520 than the ones 428 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:23,520 that make 429 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:24,520 the exchange rate 430 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:25,520 go down 431 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:26,520 because they're harmful 432 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:27,520 to the Bitcoin network, 433 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:28,520 actually. 434 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:29,520 You'd want them 435 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:30,520 to shut those off. 436 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:31,520 And so, 437 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:32,520 if you recast it 438 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:33,520 in those terms, 439 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:34,520 it's no longer 440 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:35,520 a question of 441 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:36,600 trusting the miners. 442 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:37,600 It's just, 443 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:38,600 do you believe 444 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:39,600 the, 445 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:40,600 you know, 446 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:41,600 the security model 447 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:42,600 that 448 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:43,600 a majority of 449 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:44,600 hash rate 450 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:45,600 is not trying 451 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:46,600 to make the network 452 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:47,600 any worse. 453 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:48,600 And so, 454 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:49,600 I think it actually rests 455 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:50,600 on the exact same 456 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:51,600 axiom 457 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:52,600 that regular Bitcoin 458 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:53,600 rests on. 459 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:54,600 Although, 460 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:55,600 again, 461 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:56,600 it is slightly, 462 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:57,600 I mean, 463 00:17:57,600 --> 00:17:58,600 it's very difficult 464 00:17:58,600 --> 00:17:59,600 to explain 465 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:00,600 because, 466 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:01,600 like, 467 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:02,600 Lightning Network 468 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:03,600 also has all these 469 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:04,600 weird quirks and things 470 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:05,680 you know, 471 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:06,680 you're trusting that 472 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:07,680 these other, 473 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:08,680 you have these outsourced 474 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:09,680 channel monitoring 475 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:10,680 and you have, 476 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:11,680 you know, 477 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:12,680 if your computer 478 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:13,680 has a glitch 479 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:14,680 and it accidentally 480 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:15,680 broadcasts the wrong 481 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:16,680 thing, 482 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:17,680 you lose your entire 483 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:18,680 channel balance. 484 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:19,680 So, 485 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:20,680 you know, 486 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:21,680 and I like the Lightning Network 487 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:22,680 a lot. 488 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:23,680 I'm not trying to 489 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:24,680 criticize the Lightning Network. 490 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:25,680 I'm just saying that 491 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:26,680 these things 492 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:27,680 that have different 493 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:28,680 security models, 494 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:29,680 it's sort of like, 495 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:30,680 what exactly, 496 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:31,680 you know, 497 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:32,680 what kind of answer 498 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:33,680 are you, 499 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:34,760 but, 500 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:35,760 yeah, 501 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:36,760 the security model 502 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:37,760 is different 503 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:38,760 but I think it really 504 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:39,760 rests on the exact 505 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:40,760 same security 506 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:41,760 assumptions, 507 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:42,760 I would say. 508 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:43,760 That's what I would say. 509 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:44,760 I don't know. 510 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:45,760 Does that help? 511 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:46,760 Yeah, 512 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:47,760 that's good. 513 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:48,760 So, 514 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:49,760 the last question. 515 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:50,760 So, 516 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:51,760 do you think it makes 517 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:52,760 sense to combine 518 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:53,760 sidechains with 519 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:54,760 Lightning Network? 520 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:55,760 Absolutely, 521 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:56,760 yeah. 522 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:57,760 Which is cross, 523 00:18:57,760 --> 00:18:58,760 can be cross-chain 524 00:18:58,760 --> 00:18:59,760 so that you can 525 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:00,760 control the flow 526 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:01,760 and stuff. 527 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:02,760 Okay, 528 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:03,840 so, 529 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:04,840 I'm not familiar 530 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:05,840 with cross-chain 531 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:06,840 atomic swaps 532 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:07,840 but I think 533 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:08,840 that stuff 534 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:09,840 is very exciting. 535 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:10,840 You can have 536 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:11,840 a situation 537 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:12,840 where someone, 538 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:13,840 because I would 539 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:14,840 imagine that, 540 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:15,840 well, 541 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:16,840 first of all, 542 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:17,840 withdrawing your 543 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:18,840 money from the 544 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:19,840 sidechain to the 545 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:20,840 mainchain 546 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:21,840 is intentionally 547 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:22,840 very slow 548 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:23,840 to make it 549 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:24,840 more secure 550 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:25,840 and so I'm 551 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:26,840 relying on 552 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:27,840 regular users 553 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:28,840 to never do that 554 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:29,840 anymore than 555 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:30,840 we would, 556 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:31,840 like, 557 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:32,920 some people 558 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:33,920 care about. 559 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:34,920 So instead, 560 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:35,920 they should be 561 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:36,920 using atomic swaps 562 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:37,920 and Lightning Network 563 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:38,920 transactions to 564 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:39,920 move back and forth 565 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:40,920 between the chains 566 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:41,920 but the other 567 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:42,920 interesting thing is that 568 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:43,920 if you make a sidechain 569 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:44,920 that has a cool 570 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:45,920 feature, 571 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:46,920 it might not be 572 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:47,920 enough coins 573 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:48,920 over there 574 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:49,920 because who would 575 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:50,920 want to leave their 576 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:51,920 coins on this 577 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:52,920 other new thing 578 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:53,920 when it said 579 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:54,920 you could just 580 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:55,920 do nothing 581 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:56,920 and stay 582 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:57,920 where your 583 00:19:57,920 --> 00:19:58,920 coins are? 584 00:19:58,920 --> 00:19:59,920 People like to 585 00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:00,920 do nothing. 586 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:02,000 The advantage 587 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:03,000 of combining 588 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:04,000 the two is that 589 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:05,000 oh, 590 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:06,000 someone now has 591 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:07,000 an incentive to 592 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,000 just put some 593 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,000 coins over there, 594 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:10,000 start up a new 595 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:11,000 Lightning Channel 596 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:12,000 thing, 597 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:13,000 connect it to a 598 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:14,000 big node, 599 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:15,000 and remember the 600 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:16,000 nodes on the 601 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,000 Lightning Network 602 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:18,000 are independent 603 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,000 of any chain. 604 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:20,000 They could be 605 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:21,000 on any, 606 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:22,000 well, 607 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:23,000 that's kind of 608 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:24,000 speaking a little 609 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:25,000 loosely but 610 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:26,000 you could have 611 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:27,000 like a big, 612 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:28,000 if everything 613 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:29,000 on Bitcoin Network 614 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:30,000 is connected to 615 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:31,080 a big node, 616 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:32,080 everything connected 617 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:33,080 on a big hub 618 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:34,080 and then 619 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:35,080 you have the 620 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:36,080 guy administering 621 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:37,080 that hub 622 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:38,080 has a different 623 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:39,080 one on the 624 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:40,080 sidechain, 625 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:41,080 you connect 626 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:42,080 over there, 627 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:43,080 then you can 628 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:44,080 have these 629 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:45,080 payments go right 630 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:46,080 through. 631 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:47,080 So what I'm 632 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:48,080 getting at 633 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:49,080 is that 634 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:50,080 there's an 635 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:51,080 incentive to 636 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:52,080 move the 637 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:53,080 bitcoins over 638 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:54,080 to the 639 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:55,080 sidechain 640 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:56,080 and then 641 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:57,080 charge higher 642 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:58,080 fees on your 643 00:20:58,080 --> 00:20:59,080 Lightning Channel 644 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:00,160 even if they 645 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:01,160 don't have any 646 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:02,160 coins on the 647 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:03,160 sidechain. 648 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:04,160 So if you're 649 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:05,160 paying for 650 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:06,160 some really 651 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:07,160 strange thing 652 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:08,160 like, 653 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:09,160 I don't know, 654 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:10,160 a digital identity 655 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:11,160 lookup or 656 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:12,160 something, 657 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:13,160 you just pay 658 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:14,160 and somehow 659 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:15,160 the Lightning 660 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:16,160 Network routes 661 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:17,160 it to this 662 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:18,160 other person 663 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:19,160 and it happens 664 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:20,160 on the 665 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:21,160 sidechain 666 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:22,160 and then 667 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:23,160 they ship 668 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:24,160 some piece 669 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:25,160 of data 670 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:26,160 back to you. 671 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:27,160 That's kind 672 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:28,160 of complicated 673 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:29,240 So we use 674 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:30,240 the sidechain 675 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:31,240 concept 676 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:32,240 for saying 677 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:33,240 we take this 678 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:34,240 one chain's 679 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:35,240 consensus 680 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:36,240 mechanism which 681 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:37,240 has some 682 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:38,240 feature we 683 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:39,240 don't like 684 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:40,240 and we're 685 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:41,240 extending this 686 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:42,240 chain's 687 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:43,240 consensus 688 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:44,240 feature with 689 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:45,240 a whole new 690 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:46,240 chain. 691 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:47,240 It's like 692 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:48,240 subjecting this 693 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:49,240 consensus 694 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:50,240 mechanism to 695 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:51,240 this one 696 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:52,240 chain. 697 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:53,240 In sidechains 698 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:54,240 actually you're 699 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:55,240 tying together 700 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:56,240 a different 701 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:57,240 consensus 702 00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:58,320 mechanism. 703 00:21:58,320 --> 00:21:59,320 So 704 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:00,320 why don't 705 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:01,320 we swap 706 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:02,320 one 707 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:03,320 coin for 708 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:04,320 the other? 709 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:05,320 Why 710 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:06,320 don't 711 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:07,320 we move 712 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:08,320 the coins 713 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:09,320 themselves 714 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:10,320 across? 715 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:11,320 Well 716 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:12,320 I think 717 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:13,320 in atomic 718 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:14,320 swaps it's 719 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:15,320 because it's 720 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:16,320 impossible 721 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:17,320 because you 722 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:18,320 would have 723 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:19,320 to have 724 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:20,320 one 725 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:21,320 network 726 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:22,320 be aware 727 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:23,320 of each 728 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:24,320 other 729 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:25,320 and so 730 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:26,320 they'd 731 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:27,400 have to 732 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:28,400 be 733 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:29,400 assigned to 734 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:30,400 me 735 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:31,400 or something 736 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:32,400 and so 737 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:33,400 I make 738 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:34,400 some 739 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:35,400 secret 740 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:36,400 R 741 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:37,400 random 742 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:38,400 number 743 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:39,400 and then 744 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:40,400 I compute 745 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:41,400 H 746 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:42,400 and then 747 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:43,400 I say 748 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:44,400 okay 749 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:45,400 I'll give 750 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:46,400 you one 751 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:47,400 bitcoin 752 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:48,400 if 753 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:49,400 the R 754 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:50,400 is revealed 755 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:51,400 for this 756 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:52,400 H 757 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:53,400 I have 758 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:54,400 the lock 759 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:55,400 which is 760 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:56,480 one 761 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:57,480 transaction 762 00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:58,480 and the bitcoin 763 00:22:58,480 --> 00:22:59,480 network only sees 764 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:00,480 the one part 765 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:01,480 and the litecoin 766 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:02,480 network only sees 767 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:03,480 the other part 768 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:04,480 and then I say 769 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:05,480 R 770 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:06,480 and it unlocks 771 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:07,480 both of them 772 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:08,480 at the same time. 773 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:09,480 For example 774 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:10,480 if you transfer 775 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:11,480 any other 776 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:12,480 coin 777 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:13,480 towards 778 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:14,480 bitcoin 779 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:15,480 the way 780 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:16,480 we express 781 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:17,480 it is 782 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:18,480 we take 783 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:19,480 the whole 784 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:20,480 coins 785 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:21,480 and we 786 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:22,480 put them 787 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:23,480 as a 788 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:24,480 Satoshi 789 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:25,560 and 790 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:26,560 there is a 791 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:27,560 currency 792 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:28,560 by which we 793 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:29,560 do consensus 794 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:30,560 by which we 795 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:31,560 do priority 796 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:32,560 in the network 797 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:33,560 and other 798 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:34,560 currencies 799 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:35,560 we just 800 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:36,560 keep them 801 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:37,560 as data 802 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:38,560 so you can 803 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:39,560 move around 804 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:40,560 this data 805 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:41,560 which is 806 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:42,560 like a litecoin 807 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:43,560 throughout 808 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:44,560 the bitcoin 809 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:45,560 network 810 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:46,560 and then 811 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:47,560 you know 812 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:48,560 you can 813 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:49,560 move it 814 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:50,560 never back 815 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:51,560 to the 816 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:52,560 litecoin 817 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:53,560 network 818 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:54,640 if you can do 819 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:55,640 that sort of 820 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:56,640 move between 821 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:57,640 chains 822 00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:58,640 I feel like 823 00:23:58,640 --> 00:23:59,640 the difference 824 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:00,640 between a side 825 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:01,640 chain 826 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:02,640 and another 827 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:03,640 chain 828 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:04,640 all together 829 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:05,640 disappears 830 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:06,640 this function 831 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:07,640 well I think 832 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:08,640 the 833 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:09,640 well 834 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:10,640 it's kind of 835 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:11,640 a strange 836 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:12,640 example 837 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:13,640 but I think 838 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:14,640 you 839 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:15,640 the point 840 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:16,640 of the side 841 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:17,640 chain 842 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:18,640 is that 843 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:19,640 you want 844 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:20,640 to use 845 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:21,640 bitcoin 846 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:22,640 for 847 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:23,720 something 848 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:24,720 that 849 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:25,720 is 850 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:26,720 like 851 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:27,720 betting 852 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:28,720 or 853 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:29,720 identity 854 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:30,720 or 855 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:31,720 that looks 856 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:32,720 up 857 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:33,720 the 858 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:34,720 dns 859 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:35,720 for something 860 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:36,720 or 861 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:37,720 these other 862 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:38,720 things 863 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:39,720 messaging 864 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:40,720 or 865 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:41,720 whatever 866 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:42,720 so 867 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:43,720 you'd 868 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:44,720 want to 869 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:45,720 use 870 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:46,720 it 871 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:47,720 or just 872 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:48,720 larger 873 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:49,720 blocks 874 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:50,720 or something 875 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:51,720 like that 876 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:52,800 to send 877 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:53,800 bitcoin 878 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:54,800 to someone 879 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:55,800 else 880 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:56,800 or to 881 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:57,800 the 882 00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:58,800 miners 883 00:24:58,800 --> 00:24:59,800 or whatever 884 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:00,800 you do 885 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:01,800 your 886 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:02,800 counterparty 887 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:03,800 wants to 888 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:04,800 get 889 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:05,800 bitcoin 890 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:06,800 back 891 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:07,800 that's 892 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:08,800 kind of 893 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:09,800 what's 894 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:10,800 going on 895 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:11,800 with side 896 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:12,800 chains 897 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:13,800 I think 898 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:14,800 your 899 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:15,800 example 900 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:16,800 where you 901 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:17,800 turn litecoin 902 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:18,800 into 903 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:19,800 satoshis 904 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:20,800 of 905 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:21,880 course 906 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:22,880 of course 907 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:23,880 there 908 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:24,880 are 909 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:25,880 other 910 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:26,880 coins 911 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:27,880 of course 912 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:28,880 there are 913 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:29,880 yes 914 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:30,880 if you 915 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:31,880 can reserve 916 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:32,880 the total 917 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:33,880 amount of 918 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:34,880 litecoin 919 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:35,880 yes 920 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:36,880 it doesn't 921 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:37,880 matter 922 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:38,880 how we 923 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:39,880 conference 924 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:40,880 like 925 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:41,880 the banks 926 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:42,880 using 927 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:43,880 bitcoin 928 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:44,880 as a 929 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:45,880 reserve 930 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:46,880 another 931 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:47,880 chain 932 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:48,880 can use 933 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:49,880 bitcoin 934 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:50,880 something 935 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:51,880 that was very 936 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:52,880 very 937 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:53,880 unlike 938 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:54,880 bitcoin 939 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:55,880 in many ways 940 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:56,880 where you 941 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:57,880 could just 942 00:25:57,880 --> 00:25:58,880 say well 943 00:25:58,880 --> 00:25:59,880 in this 944 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:00,880 sidechain 945 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:01,880 everything has 946 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:02,880 to be signed 947 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:03,880 by some 948 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:04,880 government 949 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:05,880 authority or 950 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:06,880 you know 951 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:07,880 federal bank 952 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:08,880 employee or 953 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:09,880 something 954 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:10,880 so 955 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:11,880 no but 956 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:12,880 that's what 957 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:13,880 i'm trying to 958 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:14,880 explain is 959 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:15,880 that with 960 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:16,880 the sidechain 961 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:17,880 you you're 962 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:18,880 working with 963 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:19,880 the side 964 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:20,880 chain so 965 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:21,880 the the 966 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:22,880 when you have a 967 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:23,880 family of 968 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:24,880 sidechains 969 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:25,880 everyone's using 970 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:26,880 the same 971 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:27,880 everyone's using 972 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:28,880 the same 973 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:29,880 using the 974 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:30,880 same money 975 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:31,880 and so you're 976 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:32,880 in you're 977 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:33,880 plugged into 978 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:34,880 the same 979 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:35,880 economic network 980 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:36,880 you know it's 981 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:37,880 like it's 982 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:38,880 sort of like 983 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:39,880 using like 984 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:40,880 euros versus 985 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:41,880 something else 986 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:42,880 if you 987 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:43,880 preserve values 988 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:44,880 across chains 989 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:45,880 you preserve 990 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:46,880 the economic 991 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:47,880 network 992 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:49,880 but once for 993 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:50,880 example 994 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:51,880 my bank is 995 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:52,880 able to hold 996 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:53,880 bitcoin i'll just 997 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:54,880 transfer bitcoin to 998 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:55,880 my bank and 999 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:56,880 then I'll use my 1000 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:57,880 credit card or 1001 00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:58,880 whatever and 1002 00:26:58,880 --> 00:26:59,880 I'll be 1003 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:00,880 transacting 1004 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:01,880 bitcoin instead 1005 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:02,880 of euros 1006 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:03,880 it's this concept 1007 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:04,880 of preserving 1008 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:05,880 the coin 1009 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:06,880 distribution 1010 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:07,880 across different 1011 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:08,880 technological 1012 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:09,880 solutions and 1013 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:10,880 sidechains are 1014 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:11,880 a way to 1015 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:12,880 take another 1016 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:13,880 technical solution 1017 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:14,880 and attach it 1018 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:15,880 to your current 1019 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:16,880 one so that 1020 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:17,880 I feel like 1021 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:18,880 atomic swaps 1022 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:19,880 and being able 1023 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:20,880 to swap the 1024 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:21,880 currency onto 1025 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:22,880 other chains 1026 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:23,880 brings the 1027 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:24,880 same economic 1028 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:25,880 perspective 1029 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:26,880 yes yeah okay 1030 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:27,880 I think I 1031 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:28,880 understand what you're 1032 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:29,880 saying yeah I 1033 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:30,880 agree and 1034 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:31,880 there is some 1035 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:32,880 differences yes 1036 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:33,880 that my side 1037 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:34,880 chain if my 1038 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:35,880 sidechain is 1039 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:36,880 okay but the 1040 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:37,880 main chain is 1041 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:38,880 fucked then my 1042 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:39,880 sidechain is 1043 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:40,880 also fucked 1044 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:41,880 yes that's 1045 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:42,880 true yes so 1046 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:43,880 there are some 1047 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:44,880 differences well 1048 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:45,880 yeah so I 1049 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:46,880 think one of 1050 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:47,880 the things I 1051 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:48,880 think is 1052 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:49,880 interesting is 1053 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:50,880 the fact that 1054 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:51,880 you can't 1055 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:52,880 even use 1056 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:53,880 the reason 1057 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:54,880 that why 1058 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:55,880 atomic swaps 1059 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:56,880 never caught 1060 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:57,880 on is a 1061 00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:58,880 weird anecdote 1062 00:27:58,880 --> 00:27:59,880 is that 1063 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:00,880 one person 1064 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:01,880 has the 1065 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:02,880 r, the 1066 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:03,880 lock. 1067 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:04,880 So you 1068 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:05,880 try to 1069 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:06,880 swap one 1070 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:07,880 bitcoin for 1071 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:08,880 four lite 1072 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:09,880 coin and 1073 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:10,880 one person 1074 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:11,880 can just 1075 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:12,880 wait and 1076 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:13,880 see if it 1077 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:14,880 moves against 1078 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:15,880 the 1079 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:16,880 other 1080 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:17,880 coin. 1081 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:18,880 It's 1082 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:19,880 a mess. 1083 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:20,880 But 1084 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:21,880 lightning 1085 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:22,880 network is 1086 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:23,880 even 1087 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:24,880 better because 1088 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:25,880 it's much 1089 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:26,880 faster. 1090 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:27,880 You 1091 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:28,880 could say 1092 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:29,880 my alt 1093 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:30,880 coin. 1094 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:31,880 Okay. 1095 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:32,880 I kind of 1096 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:33,880 agree with 1097 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:34,880 you in 1098 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:35,880 general but 1099 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:36,880 I think 1100 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:37,880 in this 1101 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:38,880 case I 1102 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:39,880 do mean 1103 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:40,880 the 1104 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:41,880 lightning 1105 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:42,880 network 1106 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:43,880 because 1107 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:44,880 I'm saying 1108 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:45,880 what you're 1109 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:46,880 saying is 1110 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:47,880 someone will 1111 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:48,880 pay lite 1112 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:49,880 coin or 1113 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:50,880 they pay 1114 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:51,880 something weird 1115 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:52,880 coin or 1116 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:53,880 I think maybe 1117 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:54,880 you're saying 1118 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:55,880 it the other 1119 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:56,880 way like 1120 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:57,880 someone could 1121 00:28:57,880 --> 00:28:58,880 pay bitcoin 1122 00:28:58,880 --> 00:28:59,880 and they 1123 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:00,880 could buy 1124 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:01,880 a service on 1125 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:02,880 the other 1126 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:03,880 thing. 1127 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:04,880 But 1128 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:05,880 whatever it 1129 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:06,880 means you 1130 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:07,880 mean you're 1131 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:08,880 across two 1132 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:09,880 different 1133 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:10,880 chains at 1134 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:11,880 once. 1135 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:12,880 That's 1136 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:13,880 true. 1137 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:14,880 It 1138 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:15,880 even 1139 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:16,880 tolerates the 1140 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:17,880 exchange rate 1141 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:18,880 fluctuations as 1142 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:19,880 long as the 1143 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:20,880 transaction is 1144 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:21,880 fast enough. 1145 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:22,880 So you're 1146 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:23,880 right that you 1147 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:24,880 can completely 1148 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:25,880 get all the 1149 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:26,880 same benefits 1150 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:27,880 but the one 1151 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:28,880 thing that you 1152 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:29,880 can't get is 1153 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:30,880 any guarantee 1154 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:31,880 that the alt 1155 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:32,880 coin will 1156 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:33,880 actually 1157 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:34,880 survive because 1158 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:35,880 there will 1159 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:36,880 be I 1160 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:37,880 think I 1161 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:38,880 really do 1162 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:39,880 think there 1163 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:40,880 will be a 1164 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:41,880 kind of 1165 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:42,880 like a theory 1166 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:43,880 so this is a 1167 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:44,880 conjecture of 1168 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:45,880 mine but 1169 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:46,880 it's like 1170 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:47,880 this will 1171 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:48,880 happen in 1172 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:49,880 everyone's mind 1173 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:50,880 I think very 1174 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:51,880 quickly. 1175 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:52,880 So there will 1176 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:53,880 be 200 1177 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:54,880 terrible and 1178 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:55,880 then people 1179 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:56,880 will sell number 1180 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:57,880 200. 1181 00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:58,880 They'll realize 1182 00:29:58,880 --> 00:29:59,880 that number 1183 00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:00,000 200 can't 1184 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:27,000 they'll realize that number 200 can't possibly compete because one of the 199 will be just copying these features with sidechains and so it's it's doomed as an investment as a as a kind of you know a store of value to use the phrase and then number 199 will be like wait you know this is a mistake we are not going to win this battle and then it would just kind of I don't really see why anyone will want why would anyone want to hold like even the second or the third largest 1185 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:57,000 you'd always be wondering oh you know is this gonna be a big mistake am I gonna lose everything here maybe I should put a couple percentage points into the biggest one and the biggest one will be a kind of attractor I think and so but yeah you are right that you don't need if you have this market for if altcoins stick around which you know it's weird it's a very weird thought kind of theoretically and analytically but just empirically they do better and better all the time but yeah if they if they stick around you can do this thing where you don't 1186 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:20,920 actually need sidechains at all but I think that's why I bring up the self-defense argument which is that if one blockchain has this universality it would probably tend to just replace all the other blockchains but that all that is a that is a lot of conjecture so I don't know if that will be represented in in reality but 1187 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:56,280 yeah yeah I think so I think what you're saying is that right now there's been no weird collapsing of the altcoins but it's you know so they kind of are still around but I that's I that's exactly what I think too which is that if nothing it's safe to do nothing now the other thing is that there's no easy way although I think there will be very soon because I'm working on it myself 1188 00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:18,360 but there's no easy way to like short an altcoin right now it's very difficult but as if it's easy and especially if it's easy to buy like put options so you buy a little bit of money and you get trustless put option no counterparty risk yeah and yeah but the 1189 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:45,240 if you pay more fee you can exit earlier yeah I feel like that's probably the biggest advantage of Bitcoin Core is if I'm a huge whale I can buy a shit ton of Bitcoin Core and always pay the highest fee to get out first and sell on the market when the price is still the highest so as long as I get enough whales to spread that wealth across enough accounts so if a whale is like accumulating in one account he's breaking this like informal rule that makes the deal work so 1190 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,320 well you know there's a lot of efficient markets hypothesis kind of stuff wrapped up in that 1191 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:56,360 it's so neat to have a coin where everyone goes in and if you try to do a back run big spayer gets up first 1192 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:40,360 you'll go you'll go rich if the altcoin goes down in value you know sometime in the next five years or something like that it's a long-term put option you buy it today with a little bit of Bitcoin then you gain a lot of Bitcoin if the altcoin price goes down sometime in the next you know by the end of the five-year period 1193 00:33:41,360 --> 00:34:01,360 yeah so if you do that then I don't really see why lots of people wouldn't research all these coins and figure out like which because just the act of buying a put option does trigger selling because there's a difference in the implied price of this derivative world in the real world and you can always buy low and sell high so 1194 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:23,360 anyway long story short the put options would drive the price down I think you would get self-fulfilling prophecies on many of these people would figure out very easily and then you would extract the entire market cap so if the market cap is like 300 million dollars then someone that golden sacks will figure out how to 1195 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,360 maybe I'm high-teching the subject right now 1196 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:29,360 no that's fine 1197 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:34,360 you were talking a while ago about oracles 1198 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,360 oh yeah yes I did yeah I was in last year I was in 1199 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,360 can you give a summary of what you talked about 1200 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,360 an understandable hash if you want 1201 00:34:43,360 --> 00:35:12,360 okay yeah I'll give it a try so I gave a talk at QCon in London last March about attempts to solve the oracle problem and it is recorded and you can find it on bitcoinheimland.com presentations where I will I'll be talking about that later but yeah that talk was about a history of attempts to solve the oracle problem which is a problem of getting the blockchain to figure out what something that may have happened in the real world 1202 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:35,360 and it's very difficult because the primary difficulty is this opportunity cost of honesty so you have something some financial anything that is tied to the real world performance of something so an example that people often use is elections so they say okay this thing is worth one whatever one euro one bitcoin let's say one euro 1203 00:35:35,360 --> 00:36:02,360 towards one euro if Donald Trump is elected and it's worth one euro if Hillary Clinton is elected in the United States you know I just assume that you guys are aware of what happened over there but the point is it's worth one it's worth something or it's worth nothing but the trick is that it's you want the challenge is that you want to tie you want to build something that does that so you want to tie this payment to something that happened in the real world 1204 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:30,360 and it's very difficult because once that information is learnable so Donald Trump wins Hillary Clinton loses now if everything is working as planned if everything is working as planned and you're doing a good job best case scenario then this all the Donald Trump shares or coupons whatever you want to call them they should be trading for basically one euro and the other one the Hillary Clinton and whatever Gary Johnson ones they should be trading for zero 1205 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:59,360 but since that you have the information has to exist first and then you have to use the Oracle to report on it and then you have to pay people out so the things happen to have they must happen in that sequence so then you have a problem with step number two which is that someone knowing that Donald Trump has won would have an incentive to lie and say that he actually lost because they can go up and buy all the stuff for basically zero these useless Hillary Clinton shares and then lie 1206 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:23,360 and thereby they can extract the entire delta of the market position at all so it's really no different than running an exchange being the Oracle is basically the same as running an exchange where you buy and sell this thing everyone has deposited with you and they trust that you will put the right outcome out but if you just put the wrong outcome out you can steal everything 1207 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:51,360 so there's a major challenge there and I go through in the talk a kind of a historical journey that people have taken where they start with multi-sig and then now people are really not interested in that and then people moved on to this kind of we'll have these different arbiters compete we'll have these different marketplace of judges but I describe why I really don't think that that can work it's just multi-sig with like more competition but it's not good enough because the 1208 00:37:51,360 --> 00:38:20,360 why I describe three factors in the talk that the judges may suddenly they have no reason not to exit scam I guess this is a really short version of that but the judges incentives are triggered by three factors which are all very unreliable one is how much money they can make if they steal so then someone might have sort of like a super popular contract where they just set it up with their friends but then suddenly a hundred million dollars goes out and you don't know if that's going to happen when you set it up 1209 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:48,360 so someone might bet and then they're like oh no I didn't realize that everyone would start betting and now ten million dollars would be on the line and of course this judge is going to lie and take ten million dollars for himself and he's gone and so it's like you're hoping it stays small and the thefts pay out but then also there's this other thing the stream of little transaction fees that he might earn that also could go down as the marketplace of judges becomes more competitive and why wouldn't it if it were doing really well 1210 00:38:48,360 --> 00:39:02,360 and then how much the judge cares about the future relative to the present you know the judge could get brain cancer or could just decide to exit scam for any other reason and so all three of those are unreliable so I described them what I did 1211 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:31,360 I can repeat it if you're saying it could be even worse than a Chinese-Russian exchange well yeah I think so because a lot of the benefit to this type of thing would be that you want like trustlessness you want like no identities I mean at least if there's an exchange like people knew who like Mark Carpellis was right 1212 00:39:31,360 --> 00:40:00,360 and they could like find him and harass him or something you know like you got something you have some recourse but with this it's really kind of the goal is to make it kind of blind I mean that's the ideal the platonic ideal for all this stuff is that you just you sit on your computer and you just want to buy some Hillary Clinton defeat shares or something and you just hit enter and it just happens and then you don't need to have any figure out like oh is this a reputable exchange or let me do all my due diligence on this 1213 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:10,360 in particular I have the last very short question before dinner is there one more question okay this is the last one then we're going to have dinner 1214 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:16,360 just a quick question so can you merge sidechains into the core of the chain? 1215 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:21,360 oh okay well that's an interesting question so you don't mean a code merge you mean like the 1216 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,360 if you make a sidechain 1217 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,360 you could make them mandatory yeah 1218 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,360 could you make like consensus and make it mandatory 1219 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:56,360 yeah well that's what you but I think the funny thing is I actually see when you use the word merge it reminds me of github where it's like you know fork and merge and I kind of feel that sidechains are allow it's kind of weird because those are abstract terms but what I feel is that the sidechains are the merge operation because it's like if you want to leave and go to the altcoin community like you can never come back but if you want to leave and go to the sidechains community then you can move your money back and so you kind of sidechains are kind of like 1220 00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:25,360 they're kind of like are the merge but yeah the part I think early on people thought that such excuse me people thought that sidechains would be used mostly for testing experimental features that would then be merged into Bitcoin core but I don't think that anymore now that we see the conservatism of core but also the interest in crazy altcoins and just the profound difference in vision that I think was probably foreseeable and inevitable as we get to just a bigger 1221 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:52,360 and bigger community now it will be just for people who want to do different things will just that will just stay there so I don't think necessarily you would end up merging them back but it is possible in fact it's it kind of happens almost naturally because as more and more people use a set becomes much more difficult to imagine anyone getting away with an attack on one or the other without both of the communities 1222 00:41:53,360 --> 00:42:06,360 like refusing to put up with that we're taking very easily there's a huge asymmetry in Bitcoin and inside chains that the users have a lot of leverage in any you know UASFs or other things that they might want to do 1223 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,360 so what about a round of applause for Paul and Q&A 1224 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:24,360 you