1
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Did it hit you guys?

2
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:19,000
Did it ping?

3
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Did it ping?

4
00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:22,000
Did it hear?

5
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Really?

6
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Maybe I'm not connected to Twitter on this thing.

7
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I got your here we go tweet, yeah.

8
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Oh, it did?

9
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Well, I don't see it.

10
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Maybe it didn't go through.

11
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Yeah, I don't see anything.

12
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That's okay, I'm going to do it now.

13
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All I see so far is all right, here we go.

14
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There it is.

15
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Hello, and welcome to PartyLine Chat.

16
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My name is Michael Finney.

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Today, we are bringing back two previous guests to talk about BTC and BSV.

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We've got Paul Sztorc.

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Do you want to introduce yourself at Truthcoin on Twitter?

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Yep, that's me.

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I don't know.

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I think introductions are pretty boring, honestly.

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You don't necessarily give a proper introduction just so much as people can get to
see your face, pop up, and hear your voice.

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I should say I represent the BTC side, though.

25
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That's fair.

26
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The audience should at least know that.

27
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Sure.

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Daniel Krawietz, taking the BSV side of things, you know him as the emperor of
Bitcoin.

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We also did a project called Bitcoin at Scale, released earlier this year.

30
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Do you want to say hello, Daniel?

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Hello.

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Yes, I am the emperor of Bitcoin.

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Fantastic.

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See, that introduction was not boring.

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I would like to say that I hope that all the BTCers out there who may be watching,
wish me the best of luck because I may need it when going up against the emperor of
Bitcoin.

36
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That's fair.

37
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We wish you the best of luck here from PartyLine as well.

38
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Thank you.

39
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Do the other guys in the crew want to introduce themselves so we know who is here
and what they look like and sound like on the debate?

40
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I'm Brian.

41
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I'm Mr. Brockfond on Twitter.

42
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I have the paper bag head icon.

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I'm not the emperor of anything.

44
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Hey, this is Nish here on Twitter.

45
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Hey, this is Justin.

46
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11J Moore on Twitter.

47
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All right.

48
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So that's everybody on here right now.

49
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People might pop back in later if they choose to.

50
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But let's kind of get into it.

51
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So you've got one side.

52
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You got the BSV side and then you got the BTC side.

53
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Where do you guys want to start?

54
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What do you want to begin with in terms of, you know, the beachhead?

55
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Where do you want to land?

56
00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:38,000
Where do you want to land?

57
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Well, I'd like to start talking about my goals for this chat.

58
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Because what I would like to do is convince Paul to come over to the BSV side
without pumping BSV.

59
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So my ideal outcome will be that Paul is the only one who believes that I won the
debate.

60
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And so I want to give Paul an opportunity to buy into BSV.

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It's off to a good start because I actually, I think I understand what he means by
that.

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Well, so I want to say things that Paul will understand are really good for BSV.

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But that everybody else will think are negative.

64
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And Paul can communicate to me the point when he has been convinced by saying the
stupidest thing he can think of.

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And I will still want to lose the debate.

66
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So then I will try to say something stupider than that.

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But he'll realize that his best option is also to anti-pump BSV.

68
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So he'll try to also act stupid so that people don't think it's a good idea.

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Do we agree to these terms?

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Nobody has to agree to that. I'm just saying that's just what I'm going to do.

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But it's in Paul's best interest.

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So he can start doing things my way at any time.

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All right.

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I don't know, I may already be doing so.

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Dan Kravitz is an odd person because he left the sacred realm of BTC.

76
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So now if anyone on Twitter finds out that I agree with him or I'm doing anything
that he even likes, or even that I'm not doing the thing that he hates the most,
then it will look like...

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I don't know. I don't know what it will look like at this point.

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Okay. Well, Paul, do you have any goals for this debate?

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Are you going to try to convince me of anything?

80
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Well, I don't know. Maybe I think there are some underappreciated deficiencies of
the hard fork that I think maybe people might want to hear about.

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So that's basically it, I guess. Maybe I want to agree a little bit for fun and for
support.

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Oh, okay.

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Okay, well, if you don't mind, I'll...

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Well, first of all, I guess I should figure out...

85
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Well, can you explain who will benefit from Drivechain and how?

86
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,000
Okay, well, I can definitely do that.

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Drivechain is a way of... So Drivechain is something I designed in that we have now
this piece of software that we have produced.

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So you can find... If anyone who's listening is interested, they can go to
drivechain.info and read a lot more about it there.

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But basically, it is a technology for enabling sidechains on Bitcoin.

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So it lets people add, remove sidechains, or send coins to them and get them back.

91
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And so what that does is it opens up the sort of monopoly that developers currently
have on Bitcoin.

92
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And it makes it so that instead the developers are in perfect competition with each
other.

93
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So what it does for Bitcoin owners and investors and users is it prevents...

94
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Well, for investors, it prevents you from being trapped on the one coin, and it
prevents you from being killed by an error made by the developers.

95
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So maybe that's the most relevant advantage, that if there's something wrong with
one piece of software, you can just move to a different piece of software.

96
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And that has a lot of healthy... I don't know. That has a lot of health to it.

97
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:45,000
Okay. So Drivechain prevents you from being killed by a negligent stupidity.

98
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Okay.

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It's like, you know, it's really that solves the problem that I think that the large
blocker group originally had.

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Maybe if I can speak for Roger here, that's, you know, he's not here.

101
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But it kind of gets him, you get one gets the impression that he was frustrated with
developers.

102
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He couldn't get his own competing ideas into the protocol, and he couldn't sort of
fire the developers, so to speak.

103
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But with Drivechain, you can, you can just switch to a different piece of software.

104
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It's the same 21 million coins. It's the same hash rate.

105
00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:29,000
So it's, it stops the Bitcoin GitHub repository from being like a kind of
dictatorship.

106
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You can escape and go to a different piece of software.

107
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Okay.

108
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Okay, well, yeah, okay, I agree with all that.

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So to me, you are like someone who is on the Titanic.

110
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And while it's sinking, you say, I'm going to design the perfect life raft.

111
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Yeah, I get a little bit what you're saying.

112
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:12,000
It's funny that you mentioned that because I had a different analogy where the hard
forkers are like in Snowpiercer,

113
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where the BCH, BSV people are like those people at the very beginning, or not really
at the beginning, but in the timeline,

114
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who fled the train early on and like froze to death immediately after like 15
seconds.

115
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So that's kind of like my analogy is that we're all trapped on this, on BTC, which
is the Snowpiercer train.

116
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And it's not perfect here, but you shouldn't leave the train without a plan.

117
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Well, we have a plan.

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Well, what is the, you see, the thing is, I'm not sure that there is a plan though,

119
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because Roger and people wanted to leave the founders of BCH originally,

120
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they didn't actually solve the core problem of recovering from an error made by the
protocol or an error made by the developers.

121
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They just replaced one set of developers with another set.

122
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And they just replaced one protocol with a different protocol.

123
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So they didn't really solve the one problem that they had, I think.

124
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I mean, you can certainly see it now with BCH and OMRI and BCH splitting into SV and
then, you know,

125
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Well, yeah, BCH has exactly the same problem.

126
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Right. So how does BSV solve this problem of there being potential errors in the BSV
protocol?

127
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The problem is solved by recognizing that you have to do proof-of-work in order to
convince people that something is better.

128
00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:09,000
See, so like with proof-of-work, you have to lose with a 100% probability.

129
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No, but it's an assertion about the BSV protocol itself.

130
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:20,000
And Drivechain is sort of saying that problems with Drivechain itself,
notwithstanding,

131
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if there's some kind of problem with layer one, BTC, Bitcoin Core, then you can
escape to a different piece of software.

132
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And maybe that would help you.

133
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And so I'm asking about how does BSV, what if there's a problem with BSV?

134
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And then it seems to me that you assert that BSV is infallible and there is no
problem.

135
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No, that's not what I said.

136
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:54,000
No, the problem is solved by saying that anybody who wants to lead has to do
proof-of-work first.

137
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But is that something true only of BSV or is that part of the BSV protocol or is
there some other thing that's on top of BSV that can't be brought to any other piece
of software?

138
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It, well, it doesn't, it's not software, it's people.

139
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So it's just a way of thinking about leadership.

140
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:22,000
I see. So you're saying that this is something that the BTC community is so far
gone, they'll never learn.

141
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:27,000
They'll never be able to learn it if it's shown to be working very well.

142
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:34,000
Anybody who did learn it would just want to join with other people who are already
doing it.

143
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:42,000
Isn't it possible that there are other features of each group?

144
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:49,000
And you could say, I like my group because it's bigger and that other group is doing
really well.

145
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So me and my group are going to copy that idea.

146
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,000
I mean, ideas are sort of free.

147
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Well, there's no such thing as my group.

148
00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:08,000
So you should be thinking about BSV with you in it versus BTC with you in it.

149
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:14,000
See, because what I'm trying to do is convince you to move over to BSV.

150
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:21,000
So your two alternatives are you in BTC and you in BSV.

151
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,000
I think I understand that.

152
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,000
But I still don't understand why.

153
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:37,000
So this idea has the quality that not only does it help BSV recover from errors,

154
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but it can only be used among people who consider themselves in the BSV community.

155
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What I'm trying to get at is there needs to be some kind of monopoly or some kind of
group cohesion.

156
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:57,000
There is a monopoly, and that's the nature of money.

157
00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:02,000
Money is a general medium of exchange.

158
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:06,000
So it doesn't have to do with what the good is.

159
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,000
It has to do with how everyone thinks about it.

160
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So there's a monopoly with money.

161
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:20,000
I agree that there are network effects, very strong network effects of numerous
kinds with money.

162
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:31,000
But that would only draw people further towards BTC versus BSV and versus trying to
teach the new idea to be TC

163
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:38,000
and not staying on BSV in the hopes that it somehow prevails.

164
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:43,000
Okay. Mike, does a network effect in BTC exist?

165
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,000
I think yes, definitely.

166
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:59,000
Okay. Well, it doesn't because there has to be a benefit from being part of the
network in order for there to be a network effect.

167
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:10,000
But what the network effect means is that it's better to join a bigger group because
there's more connections with more people.

168
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,000
Okay. We got a comment coming in too.

169
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,000
Somebody is saying…

170
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,000
Wait, let me finish this.

171
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,000
The emperor is not done speaking.

172
00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,000
No, I understand.

173
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:31,000
But there isn't any benefit to being connected to people in BTC because they've been
hamstringed and they don't have the ability to benefit each other.

174
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:38,000
What we have in BSV is a bunch of people who are all benefiting each other.

175
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:45,000
So that is a network effect. That's what the network effect actually is.

176
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,000
That's a comment.

177
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:52,000
So here's the comment. It is directed at you, Paul.

178
00:16:52,000 --> 00:17:02,000
It is saying, why are you asking these things in theory and not responding regarding
things that are actually happening on the ground?

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00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:07,000
That's what people want to hear about. They want to hear more of that from you.
Let's see.

180
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,000
Okay. Well, I'll keep that in mind.

181
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,000
This is about the future, so it has to be somewhat theoretical, doesn't it?

182
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:15,000
Yeah.

183
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:16,000
I mean, it hasn't…

184
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,000
That's not unfair. That's not an unfair comment.

185
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,000
So keep reading the comments while I…

186
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,000
Don't give the audience anything that they want.

187
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:25,000
Okay.

188
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:30,000
Certainly…

189
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,000
Okay, so by network effects…

190
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:33,000
Build the wall.

191
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:38,000
There's an awful lot we can say about network effects that exist in BTC.

192
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:44,000
So one is that all monetary revolution is extremely disruptive.

193
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:51,000
People make a lot of plans for the future based on how much money they have and
other things like that.

194
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:57,000
And so if you have… anytime you try to introduce new money, that's extremely
disruptive.

195
00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:04,000
Very inconvenient for third parties that have nothing to do with large blocks, small
blocks, that type of thing.

196
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,000
There are many more obvious ones.

197
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:16,000
The basic one is the development, which is that software developers have to invest a
lot of time in learning a code base,

198
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,000
and obviously they prefer to learn a code base that they think has a future,

199
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:24,000
and the code base is more likely to have a future if other developers are interested
in it.

200
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,000
So that's a very straightforward network effect.

201
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:35,000
I think similarly, for the exact same reason, you have investors might say, which of
these coins have a future?

202
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,000
Well, this coin is number one.

203
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,000
It must be number one for some reason.

204
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:44,000
They may be like an efficient markets type person, or they may just think,

205
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,000
hey, if enough investors think like me, we'll all clump into the same thing,

206
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:52,000
and then our capital will help carry it to victory or something.

207
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:57,000
Those are two pretty basic – I mean, I guess those are three.

208
00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:06,000
Money is inherently a giant network effect, and it's not so much the properties of
the money,

209
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,000
it's just that people don't want to use barter.

210
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,000
They don't want to be confused about how much something is going to cost,

211
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,000
whether or not they're going to be able to buy it, things like that.

212
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:21,000
So they prefer to standardize in one monetary unit, as I think we would both agree.

213
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,000
But that gives a pretty strong advantage to the status quo.

214
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:33,000
Okay, I agree with everything that you said, except that if there's no economy,
there's no network effect.

215
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:39,000
The network effect means that other people are valuable to you.

216
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,000
If you've got a coin that you can't use as money,

217
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:49,000
that means that the people aren't valuable to each other, no matter how many there
are.

218
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,000
You see what I mean?

219
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:57,000
You're not benefiting from being more connected to more people in the BTC network.

220
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,000
Yes, but I mean, you were one of the first to say – you wrote a great essay about

221
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:06,000
it's not about the technology, it's about the money.

222
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,000
Yeah, but that was before I knew about small blocks.

223
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:17,000
I was always imagining that people were going to build an economy on Bitcoin.

224
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:22,000
That's always what I was thinking about when I was talking about the network effect.

225
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,000
But what does the fact that the blocks are currently small –

226
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,000
it doesn't make much of a difference to me, to be honest with you,

227
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:36,000
because either additional layers will work, or there'll be these sort of escape
layers,

228
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:41,000
like Drivechain or like extension blocks, where it's sort of –

229
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,000
as far as most users are concerned, it's as if the block size increased.

230
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:51,000
Or there'll be some kind of moment when it's just generally acknowledged by –

231
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:57,000
I mean, it's more widely known that the small block strategy isn't going to work.

232
00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:02,000
And at that point, the community will then hard fork.

233
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:10,000
So I don't even see any big relationship between the technology and the future of
the coin, actually.

234
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,000
What's more competitive?

235
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:20,000
A network effect that could theoretically exist in the future, or one that already
exists?

236
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,000
Obviously, one that already exists.

237
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:27,000
But don't you think that having the number one spot on CoinMarketCap

238
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,000
and having the most scientific papers written about it,

239
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:35,000
and having the most prominence?

240
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:41,000
They're not – people in BTC are not benefiting each other.

241
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:47,000
You benefit each other by creating goods and services that you sell for the coin.

242
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,000
That's the network effect.

243
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:55,000
That's an actually existing network effect.

244
00:21:55,000 --> 00:22:00,000
You're just talking about a network effect that could hypothetically exist in the
future

245
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:05,000
if people in BTC realize that small blocks are bad.

246
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:11,000
But it's actually better to –

247
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:17,000
think about the most rational person in BTC.

248
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,000
His best decision is just to leave and go to BSV.

249
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:27,000
Because then he can cooperate with the other cooperators.

250
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:33,000
And then what happens is BTC is left less rational than before.

251
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,000
No, I don't buy this.

252
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,000
Well, first of all, even if everything you said were true,

253
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:45,000
there's no – just that BTC has problems,

254
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:50,000
which, again, I don't agree with because I have tried to lay out some network
effects,

255
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:56,000
just some related to being recognizable or being a software project,

256
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,000
having everyone coordinate the same software project

257
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:06,000
and having everyone coordinate their financial capital on investing in the same
asset,

258
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,000
and not endlessly diluted.

259
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,000
But even if you were right, you still have a lot of work ahead of you

260
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:17,000
because you have to say that where everyone should move is from BTC to BSV,

261
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:23,000
where they could – every single status quo that is unsatisfying for some reason

262
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:28,000
has an infinite number of – or a near-infinite number of possible modifications to
it

263
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,000
that might be better for some people.

264
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,000
And you just kind of assert that BSV is the end-all, be-all,

265
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:39,000
which I'm extremely skeptical of that for a lot of reasons.

266
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,000
Well, there's no such thing as a status quo

267
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:48,000
because everyone has a different idea of what the future holds.

268
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,000
And we're all in competition.

269
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:52,000
I just mean BTC.

270
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,000
I just mean BTC in the fact that it has the number one spot on CoinMarketCap.

271
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,000
That's basically what I'm talking about when I say status quo.

272
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:05,000
Okay, but an actual network effect means that people are creating goods and services

273
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,000
and exchanging them for the money.

274
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,000
Well, you're asserting that, but don't you agree with me

275
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:14,000
that there's something to the fact that the developers would prefer

276
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,000
to learn a codebase that they think has a future

277
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:22,000
and that the codebase is more likely to have a future if other developers are
interested in it

278
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:26,000
and that they all want to go to little conferences and meetups with each other

279
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,000
and they all want to be talking about the same thing.

280
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:29,000
They all want to speak the same language.

281
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,000
They don't want to – you can't have everyone learn their own language.

282
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,000
No, I don't agree with that at all

283
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,000
because you can attract more developers without making anything better.

284
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:46,000
All of those developers being attracted to BTC are just learning how to make it
worse.

285
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,000
Well, I agree that there's no guarantee then.

286
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,000
I'm just pointing out that that is a network effect.

287
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:59,000
That's not what I was talking about when I wrote my articles on network effects.

288
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,000
The way that – it's not a benefit.

289
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,000
People are not benefiting each other.

290
00:25:05,211 --> 00:25:09,651
People are not benefiting each other if all they do is go to conferences and tell
each

291
00:25:09,651 --> 00:25:18,651
other how right they are. A benefit is producing a good or service.

292
00:25:18,651 --> 00:25:24,291
No, I agree that the monetary network effects are different from those. I was just
trying

293
00:25:24,291 --> 00:25:33,291
to give – because you're determined to frame all network effects as related to the

294
00:25:33,291 --> 00:25:40,491
development of an economy. But the way I see it, all of this stuff is sort of
aspiring

295
00:25:40,491 --> 00:25:47,931
to be money. It's aspirational in nature. None of it has triumphed yet. Actually,
we're

296
00:25:47,931 --> 00:25:55,931
in a kind of pregame to the main event. Instead, the beginning is kind of like how
to coordinate

297
00:25:55,931 --> 00:26:05,251
to find the other people who are like you. What you do get if you have the number
one

298
00:26:05,251 --> 00:26:12,771
spot on CoinMarketCap, you do get a lot of people who are committed to not being
deviant

299
00:26:12,811 --> 00:26:15,811
or not being too uncooperative.

300
00:26:15,811 --> 00:26:20,811
Where are the other people who are like you?

301
00:26:20,811 --> 00:26:29,971
I don't know. Oh, you mean the example? A lot of people might think – I think I
mentioned

302
00:26:29,971 --> 00:26:33,531
this before that if the coin is number one, you have investors and they just think,
I

303
00:26:33,531 --> 00:26:37,851
don't know what's going on. There's like the OpenCoinMarketCap and they see 50 coins

304
00:26:37,851 --> 00:26:43,451
and they're like, I have no idea what's going on, but this one's number one and I
want to

305
00:26:43,451 --> 00:26:49,971
invest fast. I'm just going to pick this one and I'm sure it'll work itself out.
It's like

306
00:26:49,971 --> 00:26:54,251
buying a first class ticket. You don't know if you get a first class ticket, you get
priority

307
00:26:54,251 --> 00:26:58,291
boarding if you want it. You get extra space for your bag. You get to check bags.
It's

308
00:26:58,291 --> 00:27:02,451
like whatever you need, someone will get it for you somewhere. You just buy the most
expensive

309
00:27:02,451 --> 00:27:06,131
ticket and let the specialist sort of work it out.

310
00:27:06,131 --> 00:27:09,651
That's one of the things I'm trying to say. I'm trying to say quite a few things.
The

311
00:27:09,651 --> 00:27:18,891
monetary network effect is different. As I tried to mention, it's no good to have –
people

312
00:27:18,891 --> 00:27:23,171
prefer using money to having barter and you can't have everyone use their own money.
The

313
00:27:23,171 --> 00:27:26,891
whole point of money is that it's this kind of standard unit. It's a standard
measure

314
00:27:26,891 --> 00:27:39,211
of purchasing power. They don't want troublemakers to fork things off unless it's a
really good

315
00:27:39,211 --> 00:27:47,171
reason. I don't say never do it. I don't say you should never hard fork or never try
anything

316
00:27:47,171 --> 00:27:54,251
that's totally new. I just say that you have to be aware of how inherently
disruptive and

317
00:27:55,211 --> 00:27:59,291
annoying it is. I think a lot of people would be like – I'll just conform to number
one.

318
00:28:01,851 --> 00:28:06,331
When there's a large number of diverse people involved in something, you can't just
do something

319
00:28:06,331 --> 00:28:13,371
just because you think it's better. You could be wrong or you could be right, but
other people

320
00:28:13,371 --> 00:28:20,811
might not yet believe you. That would make it coercion to just decide. Politics is a
slow

321
00:28:20,931 --> 00:28:28,211
thing, but people don't like it. I can see how people would be attracted to the
stability of

322
00:28:28,211 --> 00:28:32,691
BTC and repelled by the hard fork. That's something I've always believed.

323
00:28:32,691 --> 00:28:38,891
So, you don't know where the other people like you are?

324
00:28:38,891 --> 00:28:45,531
Well, presumably, they're like me except a lot quieter. They just buy BTC and they
just wait

325
00:28:46,251 --> 00:28:56,331
for something to be figured out. They believe, as I do, that if something were truly
a much

326
00:28:56,331 --> 00:29:02,331
better idea, then the developers would be fired by just a kind of natural process
that

327
00:29:04,011 --> 00:29:09,771
there would be a new hard fork when that information were more widely known.

328
00:29:10,251 --> 00:29:16,811
Here's a comment coming in. Would it be possible to hear both sides say

329
00:29:16,811 --> 00:29:21,611
their piece on cooperation, which was mentioned at some point earlier?

330
00:29:24,331 --> 00:29:28,491
Maybe. Maybe I'll try to tilt a future answer towards that. I don't know.

331
00:29:30,331 --> 00:29:37,531
I'll just say something about it right now. Cooperation means thinking about what
other

332
00:29:37,531 --> 00:29:50,251
people want and providing it for them in a way that earns you a profit.

333
00:29:52,251 --> 00:30:00,651
Okay. What about if some thought leader in your group says that what the person
wants

334
00:30:01,451 --> 00:30:04,011
isn't something that they should have? What happens then?

335
00:30:04,891 --> 00:30:10,491
There are no thought leaders. Anyone who's saying that he's a thought leader,

336
00:30:10,491 --> 00:30:18,251
you should just stop listening to him. Okay. What about cases where

337
00:30:19,211 --> 00:30:24,411
there's an inherent trade-off? So, like you just mentioned, you gave a big speech
about

338
00:30:26,011 --> 00:30:29,771
finding out what people want and giving it to them. But what about Luke Jr. who
wants

339
00:30:29,851 --> 00:30:36,171
small blocks? What are you going to do about that? Well, how much would you pay for
them?

340
00:30:38,731 --> 00:30:40,171
No, I don't know. That's a good question.

341
00:30:43,451 --> 00:30:47,691
It's about what people want to pay for, not just what they want to demand.

342
00:30:52,491 --> 00:30:55,851
That's a parallel argument for large blocks, you could say.

343
00:30:56,811 --> 00:31:02,731
It's just that reduces to an argument that the status quo prevails.

344
00:31:07,531 --> 00:31:11,531
Certainly nothing about giving people what they want or cooperating.

345
00:31:18,731 --> 00:31:24,971
Large and small blocks aren't the product. The product is transactions.

346
00:31:26,571 --> 00:31:29,291
So, that's what people pay for.

347
00:31:32,731 --> 00:31:37,771
I mean, again, this is kind of why I asked that first question about what if there's
some thought

348
00:31:37,771 --> 00:31:45,931
leader in BSV who just says, well, you say you want that, and then just argues it
away.

349
00:31:46,811 --> 00:31:49,451
There are really people out there who really want small blocks.

350
00:31:49,451 --> 00:32:01,371
This is a poker game. You can't have thought leaders. Anybody who tries to be a
thought

351
00:32:01,371 --> 00:32:09,451
leader is potentially someone who's using deception. It really should only be about

352
00:32:10,571 --> 00:32:14,891
being an entrepreneur, not about politics.

353
00:32:15,051 --> 00:32:20,651
Isn't this conversation supposed to be about how BSV enables cooperation?

354
00:32:20,651 --> 00:32:27,691
And I'm trying to give you a clear example where some people want small blocks and
no...

355
00:32:27,691 --> 00:32:35,531
Those small blocks aren't a product. Okay, we're talking about cooperation in
capitalism,

356
00:32:37,931 --> 00:32:42,651
not politics. You're still in a political mode.

357
00:32:43,611 --> 00:32:47,851
But it's not quite... Well, the hard fork is necessarily...

358
00:32:48,411 --> 00:32:53,291
Every hard fork is political because it says instead of the computer deciding,

359
00:32:57,531 --> 00:33:02,091
a bunch of humans are going to decide. That's one of the reasons why it's such a
disaster.

360
00:33:02,091 --> 00:33:15,211
If I hard fork, will the coins that I earn be worth more than the coins that other
people are

361
00:33:15,211 --> 00:33:22,331
mining? So it's still about entrepreneurship. It's not about politics.

362
00:33:22,411 --> 00:33:31,131
I don't think that that... You're really going to try and say that BSV is this
welcoming place

363
00:33:31,131 --> 00:33:37,291
of cooperation. You really don't understand what I'm trying to say about that there
are people out

364
00:33:37,291 --> 00:33:42,891
there who will prefer the block size to be low and they can't get that on BSV.

365
00:33:42,891 --> 00:33:48,891
I was trying to say that there are people out there who prefer the block size to be
low and

366
00:33:48,971 --> 00:33:54,971
they can't get that on BSV. Those people are uncooperative. You also have to be a
cooperative.

367
00:33:54,971 --> 00:34:00,491
What I wanted to get at, though, is that it's not actually welcoming. It's only
welcoming to

368
00:34:02,491 --> 00:34:09,851
the people that, according to you, meet some criteria for being cooperative.

369
00:34:09,851 --> 00:34:10,651
Exactly.

370
00:34:14,651 --> 00:34:15,691
Right. Well, there you go.

371
00:34:19,211 --> 00:34:27,211
Wait a minute. Now let's go back. Where are the other people who are like you?

372
00:34:27,211 --> 00:34:33,131
You said that the point is to find the other people who are like you.

373
00:34:36,971 --> 00:34:41,211
They would be on the number one coin market cap coin just waiting patiently.

374
00:34:44,571 --> 00:34:45,211
No, they're not.

375
00:34:45,771 --> 00:34:52,571
I already gave a kind of strategy, this sort of Nash Equilibrium strategy where you
hang

376
00:34:52,571 --> 00:34:59,771
out on the number one coin. If any coin challenges it in a serious way, if there's a
flippening,

377
00:34:59,771 --> 00:35:02,971
then you lead the campaign to hard fork to that technology.

378
00:35:02,971 --> 00:35:09,531
Well, but you avoid profit with that strategy. In order to do it correctly, you
would have to

379
00:35:10,331 --> 00:35:13,611
In order to do it correctly, you would have to pick the correct coin

380
00:35:14,171 --> 00:35:17,771
before there's a flippening, because that's what makes you profit.

381
00:35:19,691 --> 00:35:27,451
No, I don't understand. I buy one coin today, the number one coin, and now I'm
guaranteed to win.

382
00:35:28,331 --> 00:35:33,691
Whatever happens, I'm going to win. If number one coin wins, I win. If the number
three coin

383
00:35:34,411 --> 00:35:44,651
rises up and becomes super influential, then I just take the community from the
number one coin

384
00:35:45,371 --> 00:35:48,811
and all the people with big vested interests in the number one coin.

385
00:35:49,611 --> 00:35:54,491
I hard fork to the technology of number three. Now I have the best community and the
best technology,

386
00:35:55,051 --> 00:35:57,131
and I win anyway, and it didn't cost me anything.

387
00:35:57,131 --> 00:35:58,091
So I'm guaranteed to win.

388
00:35:58,091 --> 00:36:00,811
Number one coin can go to zero overnight.

389
00:36:00,811 --> 00:36:06,651
I know, but the hard fork that I just made will have the community of number one

390
00:36:07,531 --> 00:36:13,931
and the technology of whatever the usurper community has.

391
00:36:16,971 --> 00:36:19,771
Uh, okay.

392
00:36:22,091 --> 00:36:23,851
So it only has nothing to do with any of the features.

393
00:36:23,851 --> 00:36:26,571
I agree with that strategy. It's just that...

394
00:36:27,051 --> 00:36:31,691
The vulnerability of the strategy is that there'll be something about the community

395
00:36:32,411 --> 00:36:35,371
of the number three coin that is superior.

396
00:36:35,371 --> 00:36:38,891
So I think this actually unravels a lot of mysteries.

397
00:36:38,891 --> 00:36:41,931
Right. So it doesn't...

398
00:36:41,931 --> 00:36:44,171
One mystery that I just have to...

399
00:36:44,171 --> 00:36:45,451
No, let Paul go. Let Paul go.

400
00:36:46,891 --> 00:36:51,131
I just have to say this about... because I've always wondered how it's possible that

401
00:36:51,131 --> 00:36:54,571
Zcash does better than Zclassic, and I think this is the only...

402
00:36:55,371 --> 00:37:00,331
And I think this is the only explanation that none of the technology actually
matters,

403
00:37:00,971 --> 00:37:02,731
which is paradoxical because...

404
00:37:02,731 --> 00:37:06,171
See, Zcash has this, like, developer tax thing,

405
00:37:07,131 --> 00:37:12,091
but Zclassic, as I understand it, or maybe I'm mixing up all these names or
something,

406
00:37:12,091 --> 00:37:18,091
but the point is there is a version of Zcash that forks to just delete the dev tax.

407
00:37:18,811 --> 00:37:22,891
So you would think it would be superior in every way for the investor and for the
user,

408
00:37:23,451 --> 00:37:26,811
but instead that one crashed and burned completely,

409
00:37:26,811 --> 00:37:31,771
and the one with the tax sort of, you know, is still alive, I guess.

410
00:37:33,211 --> 00:37:34,971
But that doesn't make any sense at all,

411
00:37:34,971 --> 00:37:38,171
except if you view it through this lens that the technology doesn't matter,

412
00:37:38,171 --> 00:37:44,731
and all you're trying to do is build, in any way possible, a community that will

413
00:37:44,971 --> 00:37:53,451
will prevail over the number one coin community at this moment of reckoning.

414
00:37:54,651 --> 00:37:57,611
So I just have to bring that up because I've been trying to figure that out for
years,

415
00:37:57,611 --> 00:37:59,771
and I think this is the only explanation that exists.

416
00:37:59,771 --> 00:38:04,571
What would be a better community than that which exists in BTC?

417
00:38:06,411 --> 00:38:11,691
Well, I mean, I think all BTC needs is either Drivechain or something like
Drivechain or

418
00:38:11,691 --> 00:38:15,131
extension blocks or something, so that as long as there's,

419
00:38:16,091 --> 00:38:18,811
if there's any disagreement over what the protocol should do,

420
00:38:19,531 --> 00:38:24,091
that negative energy can be discharged in a productive direction.

421
00:38:24,971 --> 00:38:31,211
And I think that it's clear that as the community grows and becomes more
heterogeneous,

422
00:38:31,211 --> 00:38:38,731
and there's more disagreement over, I mean, you saw earlier this week,

423
00:38:39,371 --> 00:38:46,491
or last week, about variable names and all kinds of nonsense drama and things that

424
00:38:47,371 --> 00:38:48,891
I think that it's only going to continue.

425
00:38:48,891 --> 00:38:52,891
And so there really just needs to be a solution to that one problem.

426
00:38:52,891 --> 00:39:00,091
And then the community will be sort of hyper-inclusive, and it will include
everyone.

427
00:39:00,731 --> 00:39:05,851
It will even include the people who Dan Krawitz thinks are not cooperators.

428
00:39:05,851 --> 00:39:10,651
Even those people will be able to fit in to this new community.

429
00:39:12,011 --> 00:39:19,851
Currently, the BTC community is totally trapped by a kind of stasis that has somehow
evolved,

430
00:39:19,851 --> 00:39:24,171
like a mimetic stasis that has kind of evolved.

431
00:39:24,171 --> 00:39:27,371
And it's like about selling steak dinners and things.

432
00:39:27,371 --> 00:39:29,451
It actually has nothing to do with Bitcoin,

433
00:39:29,451 --> 00:39:34,971
like selling books and is a kind of parasite and selling stupid pieces of plastic.

434
00:39:36,811 --> 00:39:40,331
And so it's kind of like there's a kind of weird thing going on,

435
00:39:40,331 --> 00:39:43,531
but I think it ultimately won't make very much of a difference.

436
00:39:44,651 --> 00:39:44,971
I don't know.

437
00:39:44,971 --> 00:39:46,411
Maybe that didn't really answer your question.

438
00:39:47,371 --> 00:39:52,491
Well, I mean, if somebody actually knows how to make Bitcoin successful,

439
00:39:55,291 --> 00:39:58,011
why would he want to join BTC and wait around?

440
00:39:59,371 --> 00:40:01,531
Well, again, I think it's like the Snowpiercer train,

441
00:40:01,531 --> 00:40:03,611
where if you leave, you just die immediately.

442
00:40:04,571 --> 00:40:09,931
Okay, but if somebody knew how to leave and be successful,

443
00:40:09,931 --> 00:40:11,131
why would he stay on the train?

444
00:40:11,851 --> 00:40:13,451
Yeah, well, I agree.

445
00:40:13,451 --> 00:40:16,811
Yeah, if someone knows, I hope they'll tell me.

446
00:40:18,171 --> 00:40:19,691
Okay, well, that's what I'm telling you.

447
00:40:19,691 --> 00:40:23,051
I'm up in first class, but I also went off the train.

448
00:40:23,051 --> 00:40:24,251
That is what I'm telling you.

449
00:40:25,611 --> 00:40:30,731
I'm not convinced though, because the hard part is the ice and snow outside that
kills you immediately.

450
00:40:31,451 --> 00:40:35,931
You can't just sit around waiting for things to get better,

451
00:40:35,931 --> 00:40:37,691
okay, because there's a better option.

452
00:40:39,291 --> 00:40:40,971
BSV is the option?

453
00:40:40,971 --> 00:40:44,011
Yes, because you can actually do things.

454
00:40:47,371 --> 00:40:52,651
Because anyone who understood how to make Bitcoin successful

455
00:40:53,291 --> 00:40:55,931
would just want to join BSV and help us.

456
00:40:58,091 --> 00:41:00,331
That sounds a little circular to me, don't you think?

457
00:41:01,531 --> 00:41:02,571
Yeah.

458
00:41:02,571 --> 00:41:08,091
Well, where else can you be an entrepreneur?

459
00:41:09,611 --> 00:41:11,611
Like, what other point is good for that?

460
00:41:12,411 --> 00:41:15,211
I mean, what if we were in the back of the train and someone said, well,

461
00:41:18,251 --> 00:41:20,411
what else can we do except be on this train?

462
00:41:20,971 --> 00:41:22,731
And someone said, well, we can leave the train.

463
00:41:22,731 --> 00:41:26,891
I'm saying, it sucks being in the back of the train.

464
00:41:27,451 --> 00:41:28,811
It's better than being dead.

465
00:41:28,811 --> 00:41:30,491
No, think about an entrepreneur.

466
00:41:31,611 --> 00:41:36,011
Where can you actually be an entrepreneur in crypto?

467
00:41:39,451 --> 00:41:42,571
What coin is good for seeking profit?

468
00:41:44,091 --> 00:41:49,131
I think I can agree that at first, when people make a new thing,

469
00:41:49,771 --> 00:41:51,851
it could be an altcoin or a hard fork.

470
00:41:52,731 --> 00:41:54,891
No, BSV isn't a new thing.

471
00:41:55,451 --> 00:41:58,651
BSV is as old as BTC.

472
00:41:59,451 --> 00:42:04,091
I don't think I agree with that.

473
00:42:04,091 --> 00:42:06,171
But anyway, the point is when there's a new community...

474
00:42:06,171 --> 00:42:08,091
It goes all the way back to the Genesis block.

475
00:42:08,091 --> 00:42:10,411
When there is a new community, then...

476
00:42:10,411 --> 00:42:12,731
It's not a new community.

477
00:42:13,291 --> 00:42:13,791
No.

478
00:42:14,731 --> 00:42:17,851
Okay, what I'm trying to say is that when you have a smaller,

479
00:42:17,851 --> 00:42:21,211
when there's a smaller number of people, it's less bureaucratic.

480
00:42:21,211 --> 00:42:23,851
And so it's easier to start up new things.

481
00:42:23,851 --> 00:42:25,611
People, there's more enthusiasm.

482
00:42:25,611 --> 00:42:26,891
That's the point I'm trying to make.

483
00:42:26,971 --> 00:42:28,011
I actually do dispute that.

484
00:42:30,651 --> 00:42:33,691
We don't ever need bureaucracy in BSV.

485
00:42:33,691 --> 00:42:36,251
I agree, but bureaucracy shows up anyway.

486
00:42:36,251 --> 00:42:39,371
As soon as there's more people, it's a problem of scale and communication.

487
00:42:40,411 --> 00:42:41,451
No, you don't need that.

488
00:42:46,171 --> 00:42:48,811
You don't need a bureaucracy to be an entrepreneur.

489
00:42:49,531 --> 00:42:53,371
All you do is figure out what other people want and seek profit.

490
00:42:53,371 --> 00:42:55,851
We don't need a bureaucracy in BSV.

491
00:42:57,371 --> 00:43:01,211
Bureaucracy is like noise or sewage or something.

492
00:43:01,211 --> 00:43:03,451
It's just when there's too many people, it just shows up.

493
00:43:03,451 --> 00:43:04,571
And you can just ignore it.

494
00:43:05,211 --> 00:43:06,971
No, it's not like noise.

495
00:43:06,971 --> 00:43:11,931
No, you can't ignore bureaucracy when you don't have a choice,

496
00:43:11,931 --> 00:43:14,651
when it's the only way for people to coordinate.

497
00:43:16,651 --> 00:43:20,491
These new projects start, and then there's idealism.

498
00:43:20,491 --> 00:43:21,611
The idealists join.

499
00:43:22,491 --> 00:43:27,531
And then it takes a lot of grit to ultimately see it through.

500
00:43:27,531 --> 00:43:30,251
It's a big marathon to see it through to the end.

501
00:43:30,251 --> 00:43:33,931
And then if you have people who are going to be constantly distracted by the next
shiny thing,

502
00:43:34,571 --> 00:43:38,891
then it'll only be another year.

503
00:43:38,891 --> 00:43:44,731
And then there'll be BSVV and BSV whatever, Jimmy and Win Vision or something.

504
00:43:44,731 --> 00:43:46,811
There'll be like constant splitting.

505
00:43:46,811 --> 00:43:48,331
Why would it be like that?

506
00:43:49,291 --> 00:43:50,891
It's already been like that.

507
00:43:51,131 --> 00:43:52,811
It's every time these...

508
00:43:54,731 --> 00:43:58,011
Okay, do you agree that splits reduce value?

509
00:43:58,011 --> 00:43:58,811
Yes, the splits.

510
00:43:59,931 --> 00:44:05,291
The thing about the splits is my view is that they are not competitive.

511
00:44:05,291 --> 00:44:11,931
And that is a problem because it entrenches the monopoly of the existing protocol.

512
00:44:11,931 --> 00:44:16,091
And in a way, I'm happy that it has such a monopoly.

513
00:44:16,091 --> 00:44:19,451
I mean, it's better for my BTC investment.

514
00:44:20,091 --> 00:44:22,251
But it's not good for progress.

515
00:44:22,251 --> 00:44:24,971
But I agree with you that the splits are...

516
00:44:26,331 --> 00:44:29,611
Well, they're anti-network effect and they're anti-money,

517
00:44:29,611 --> 00:44:31,851
and they are a big distraction.

518
00:44:31,851 --> 00:44:32,651
And yeah, I don't...

519
00:44:33,451 --> 00:44:35,211
Okay, so BSV won't split.

520
00:44:35,211 --> 00:44:35,851
They didn't do them.

521
00:44:37,131 --> 00:44:41,131
Because people in BSV understand value.

522
00:44:41,131 --> 00:44:42,411
So they won't split.

523
00:44:44,411 --> 00:44:46,971
That's exactly why the BTC people don't split.

524
00:44:46,971 --> 00:44:47,771
They did split.

525
00:44:49,931 --> 00:44:56,331
No, this is exactly why the BTC people are against the hard fork so much.

526
00:44:56,331 --> 00:44:57,771
Well, they didn't prevent it.

527
00:44:59,051 --> 00:45:01,691
You can't prevent someone from hard forking BSV.

528
00:45:01,691 --> 00:45:03,211
It doesn't work like that.

529
00:45:03,211 --> 00:45:03,851
It's like stopping.

530
00:45:03,851 --> 00:45:05,211
It's like saying, well, no one will declare war on...

531
00:45:05,211 --> 00:45:07,931
You can because you can make people want to cooperate.

532
00:45:09,931 --> 00:45:10,971
No, but you can never...

533
00:45:11,611 --> 00:45:13,931
Every group has malcontents.

534
00:45:13,931 --> 00:45:18,971
And after a certain amount of time, you can't stop some minority group in BSV

535
00:45:19,851 --> 00:45:21,611
from splitting off.

536
00:45:21,611 --> 00:45:22,731
Look, it's already happened.

537
00:45:23,451 --> 00:45:24,251
Look into the group.

538
00:45:24,251 --> 00:45:25,851
Look at what happened with BCH.

539
00:45:29,211 --> 00:45:31,211
We can make offers, okay?

540
00:45:32,411 --> 00:45:35,931
We can make people not want to split by making them offers.

541
00:45:35,931 --> 00:45:38,091
But Paul's talking about something that has happened,

542
00:45:38,091 --> 00:45:41,051
and you're talking about something you can do possibly in the future

543
00:45:41,051 --> 00:45:43,611
to prevent something that's already happened over and over again

544
00:45:43,611 --> 00:45:44,651
that Paul's referencing.

545
00:45:44,651 --> 00:45:44,811
Right.

546
00:45:44,811 --> 00:45:48,411
It's very common to say you can prevent this thing that's always happening.

547
00:45:48,971 --> 00:45:52,571
I think BSV is kind of built for splits too, you know?

548
00:45:54,171 --> 00:45:55,051
How so?

549
00:45:55,051 --> 00:45:56,251
Because when people want to...

550
00:45:57,771 --> 00:46:00,011
Founders are really cringe and make everybody want to split.

551
00:46:00,651 --> 00:46:02,491
Well, I mean, I guess that's an option.

552
00:46:02,491 --> 00:46:06,331
But just saying like, okay, well, I want this set of transactions

553
00:46:06,331 --> 00:46:09,051
to be my version of BSV.

554
00:46:09,051 --> 00:46:11,131
Like, yeah, I'm going to take the Genesis block

555
00:46:11,131 --> 00:46:12,491
and all this stuff that came before this.

556
00:46:12,491 --> 00:46:16,811
But like, this is what I want to use this like code subset for something, you know?

557
00:46:16,811 --> 00:46:20,411
I'm not necessarily concerned with the larger BSV ecosystem,

558
00:46:20,411 --> 00:46:24,171
but I'm concerned with the ability to use BSV technology.

559
00:46:28,011 --> 00:46:29,611
Why would you be concerned about that?

560
00:46:30,251 --> 00:46:30,891
I don't know.

561
00:46:30,891 --> 00:46:32,651
Some particular application.

562
00:46:33,851 --> 00:46:34,411
What do you mean?

563
00:46:35,131 --> 00:46:38,251
Like, whether it's a business application

564
00:46:38,251 --> 00:46:40,411
or like a nation state saying like,

565
00:46:40,411 --> 00:46:43,931
oh, we're going to maintain our own version of BSV,

566
00:46:44,811 --> 00:46:48,011
because of jurisdictional issues, law or something like that.

567
00:46:48,731 --> 00:46:51,211
I mean, we have multiple forks of Bitcoin at this point.

568
00:46:51,211 --> 00:46:52,171
We can't dispute that.

569
00:46:52,171 --> 00:46:55,051
Like, there are obviously different sets of interests

570
00:46:55,051 --> 00:46:56,571
about how it should be shaped.

571
00:46:59,531 --> 00:47:04,171
In order to win, people have to make offers to each other, okay?

572
00:47:04,731 --> 00:47:10,411
That's if people understood how to...

573
00:47:14,651 --> 00:47:17,451
If people were really thinking about how to win,

574
00:47:17,451 --> 00:47:20,171
they wouldn't want to split, right?

575
00:47:22,171 --> 00:47:27,371
So the coin that's going to win isn't going to split anymore.

576
00:47:29,211 --> 00:47:30,011
I agree with that.

577
00:47:30,571 --> 00:47:33,051
But that's you're describing BTC as far as I'm concerned.

578
00:47:35,131 --> 00:47:41,451
This is the exact same mistake that the BCH people made,

579
00:47:41,451 --> 00:47:47,451
which is that they think that they have the one true perfect protocol.

580
00:47:47,451 --> 00:47:50,491
And the only need is this one hard fork to get it.

581
00:47:50,491 --> 00:47:52,491
That's why the hard fork is the ring of power.

582
00:47:52,491 --> 00:47:53,451
No, that's not true.

583
00:47:56,571 --> 00:48:00,491
They did a six month hard fork schedule on BCH.

584
00:48:01,451 --> 00:48:04,971
So they don't think that they have the one true protocol.

585
00:48:04,971 --> 00:48:05,851
They keep changing it.

586
00:48:06,891 --> 00:48:08,331
Well, yeah, I think that's true.

587
00:48:08,331 --> 00:48:09,531
But I mean, I hate...

588
00:48:10,491 --> 00:48:14,251
It's the exact same problem every six months of the split.

589
00:48:16,651 --> 00:48:16,971
So...

590
00:48:19,851 --> 00:48:20,891
Yeah, but that's true.

591
00:48:20,891 --> 00:48:22,331
But the point is, you know, he still put...

592
00:48:23,051 --> 00:48:25,291
It's like he just swapped...

593
00:48:25,291 --> 00:48:29,531
Why would somebody want to be in...

594
00:48:29,851 --> 00:48:32,011
Why would somebody want to be in BTC

595
00:48:33,211 --> 00:48:36,091
if he already knows how to benefit other people?

596
00:48:37,371 --> 00:48:38,171
You see what I'm saying?

597
00:48:38,171 --> 00:48:40,571
Like in BSV, we can all...

598
00:48:42,171 --> 00:48:47,531
The only way that you can make BTC successful

599
00:48:48,251 --> 00:48:52,411
is by teaching people there something they don't want to learn.

600
00:48:52,411 --> 00:48:55,211
But it's something that people in BSV are already doing.

601
00:48:56,091 --> 00:48:58,811
It's kind of ironic because our answers are the same.

602
00:49:00,011 --> 00:49:02,491
Only the first part of our paragraphs are different

603
00:49:03,291 --> 00:49:09,291
where I'm saying that every group has malcontents,

604
00:49:09,291 --> 00:49:11,611
but people go along to get along, you know?

605
00:49:13,291 --> 00:49:16,171
When people are adults, they settle.

606
00:49:16,171 --> 00:49:16,891
They settle for...

607
00:49:16,891 --> 00:49:19,851
They say this isn't perfect, but it's better than being alone.

608
00:49:24,011 --> 00:49:28,331
Okay, but you don't have to do that with Bitcoin.

609
00:49:30,491 --> 00:49:34,491
I mean, you say that...

610
00:49:34,491 --> 00:49:43,451
You can find the other people who are like you in BSV.

611
00:49:46,091 --> 00:49:46,891
That's where they are.

612
00:49:46,891 --> 00:49:49,771
I think we may have to raise the what is money question at some point

613
00:49:49,771 --> 00:49:51,051
because I'm thinking like...

614
00:49:51,051 --> 00:49:55,531
I'm imagining if I go to Europe and everyone there takes euros

615
00:49:55,531 --> 00:49:57,771
and I go up to the merchant knight and I tell them,

616
00:49:58,331 --> 00:50:00,651
you can find the other people who are like you

617
00:50:00,651 --> 00:50:05,771
and I try to get them to take Indian rupees or something.

618
00:50:06,023 --> 00:50:18,023
And they're just going to be like, sir, we only take euros here. And I'm going to be
like, you know, you don't understand. It's all about who can cooperate and finding
the other cooperators.

619
00:50:18,023 --> 00:50:19,023
Well, that's what you say.

620
00:50:19,023 --> 00:50:21,023
They'll be like, what are you talking about?

621
00:50:21,023 --> 00:50:23,023
But that is what it's about.

622
00:50:23,023 --> 00:50:25,023
It really isn't.

623
00:50:25,023 --> 00:50:27,023
Yes, it is.

624
00:50:33,023 --> 00:50:48,023
But don't you understand what I'm trying to say? If you want to buy something in
Europe, you need euros. And it has nothing to do with how good or bad euros are as
money.

625
00:50:48,023 --> 00:50:57,023
You can produce something in Europe and then only offer it for rupees.

626
00:50:58,023 --> 00:51:12,023
Yeah, you can. But I think you might starve before you made the sale. I mean, you
need to buy things to live. You need food. You need shelter.

627
00:51:12,023 --> 00:51:13,023
Yeah.

628
00:51:14,023 --> 00:51:26,023
Well, you said something about, you know, go along to get along. And that kind of
reminds me of like a corporate tech job.

629
00:51:26,023 --> 00:51:28,023
Yes, unfortunately, I agree.

630
00:51:28,023 --> 00:51:36,023
Yeah, versus the entrepreneur who says, you know what, I'm going to change this. I
think that's a thought I had in this.

631
00:51:36,023 --> 00:51:43,023
Yeah, I agree that it's bad. I would prefer to have the best of both worlds, which
is what my project Drivechain is about.

632
00:51:43,023 --> 00:51:47,023
Okay. Who is able to produce food and shelter?

633
00:51:50,023 --> 00:51:53,023
I don't understand. You're talking about the Europe example? There's a lot of, you
know.

634
00:51:53,023 --> 00:52:00,023
Who in the crypto market is able to produce food and shelter?

635
00:52:01,023 --> 00:52:16,023
Well, as I said, I see this as kind of, you know, this is aspirational money. So we
aren't kind of, it's not quite among the people in the United States who invest in
Bitcoin.

636
00:52:17,023 --> 00:52:28,023
It isn't. I think we're in a kind of like, we're in a kind of green room or
something. It's a kind of, it's a kind of infant or a kind of larva.

637
00:52:28,023 --> 00:52:38,023
And it's these things are taking shape where they will ultimately compete later.
It's kind of like, you know, it's like you make if you're running a business, you
try to make a profit today.

638
00:52:38,023 --> 00:52:48,023
But you may also invest in your business to try and grow it in the future. You may
prevail today if you don't make the appropriate investments and capture the
commanding heights.

639
00:52:48,023 --> 00:52:52,023
If you don't make the right thing, then you'll be crushed in a couple of years.

640
00:52:52,023 --> 00:52:57,023
People can leave the Snowpiercer train if they can produce food and shelter, right?

641
00:52:57,023 --> 00:52:58,023
Yeah.

642
00:52:58,023 --> 00:53:05,023
Okay. So that's what we can do in BSV. You can't do that in another coin.

643
00:53:06,023 --> 00:53:09,023
I'm skeptical of your claim that you can.

644
00:53:11,023 --> 00:53:16,023
Here's a question for you. Have you tried Twitch? Have you logged on there?

645
00:53:16,023 --> 00:53:26,023
Yeah, I have tried it. I think a lot of the stuff that is done, there's a lot of
great stuff in both BCH and BSV.

646
00:53:27,023 --> 00:53:36,023
And a lot of it is really user-friendly. And I think it's great. And it is a
testament to the superior creative powers that are unlocked when people are broken.

647
00:53:36,023 --> 00:53:40,023
I mean, again, I wish I don't, as I said, I don't want to be on the train.

648
00:53:40,023 --> 00:53:45,023
Drive train is like a teleporter that can let people go on, teleport to whatever
train they like.

649
00:53:46,023 --> 00:53:48,023
What would convince you to get off the train?

650
00:53:48,023 --> 00:53:56,023
Drive trains are every single other chain that gives you another route, though.

651
00:53:56,023 --> 00:53:59,023
Wait, what would make you want to get off the train?

652
00:53:59,023 --> 00:54:05,023
If I had an answer, one thing, I mean, I think you're way ahead of most people on
this.

653
00:54:05,023 --> 00:54:15,023
But as you know, I've already pitched this concept that the number one coin, the way
I see it, the coin market cap is like a big hill.

654
00:54:15,023 --> 00:54:20,023
And the number one spot is at the top of the hill. And there's like a fortress in
there.

655
00:54:20,023 --> 00:54:23,023
And the BTC is living in the fortress.

656
00:54:23,023 --> 00:54:36,023
And so if you had a way to blow up the fortress, so like when that guy Mehmed
destroyed Constantinople after it had stood for like a thousand years because he had
giant cannons.

657
00:54:36,023 --> 00:54:41,023
So you need the cannons, you need something that and what is the fortress to
complete this metaphor?

658
00:54:41,023 --> 00:54:47,023
As I've explained, the number one coin can always do this move.

659
00:54:47,023 --> 00:54:56,023
It's completely asymmetric. They only they can do this move because they can do a
move where they copy the tech of any usurper, any usurper that's going to flip in
them or something.

660
00:54:56,023 --> 00:55:05,023
And that's a move that they have and that the what's its people do not.

661
00:55:05,023 --> 00:55:13,023
It's not as though if BSV prevailed over BTC, then BSV would suddenly hard fork to
small blocks.

662
00:55:13,023 --> 00:55:20,023
Right. So there's no symmetry. It's something an advantage that the number one coin
has only.

663
00:55:20,023 --> 00:55:26,023
And so it's extremely dangerous. And that's a big advantage.

664
00:55:26,023 --> 00:55:32,023
And I don't see why I should sell some of my number one coins for these other all
these other coins.

665
00:55:32,023 --> 00:55:37,023
Wait, wait, wait. All the non number one coins. What would make you want to do that?

666
00:55:37,023 --> 00:55:41,023
Some answer to that. So some answer that argument.

667
00:55:41,023 --> 00:55:45,023
So if there was something. So it's funny because actually, I think this explains
some.

668
00:55:45,023 --> 00:55:49,023
It's about the community. I mean, do you.

669
00:55:49,023 --> 00:55:59,023
I will answer more. I have more details, actually, which is because I think it
explains a lot of what Ethereum does as well, where they get up on stage and they
dance around like fools.

670
00:55:59,023 --> 00:56:12,023
But actually, it's a kind of joke to try and make Ethereum more repulsive to
Bitcoiners to trick them into and then to assemble a completely different coalition
of people.

671
00:56:12,023 --> 00:56:16,023
So, yeah, I agree. It's completely about the people. There's not necessarily any
connection.

672
00:56:16,023 --> 00:56:21,023
I mean, it's all open source technology and the UTXO step is publicly available.

673
00:56:21,023 --> 00:56:26,023
Every single full node calculates it for every block chain. So none of the
technology has any significance at all.

674
00:56:26,023 --> 00:56:32,023
In my in my point of view, as far as what which which coin will prevail.

675
00:56:32,023 --> 00:56:41,023
OK, what would make you believe that people who got off the train wouldn't be
frozen?

676
00:56:41,023 --> 00:56:45,023
Like what objective evidence would you be looking for?

677
00:56:45,023 --> 00:56:53,023
Well, that's a good question, because it's like I think you wouldn't know until it
happened.

678
00:56:53,023 --> 00:57:01,023
So that's bad for both of our arguments, because I think it's an impasse because
there's no I'm not sure there is a test.

679
00:57:01,023 --> 00:57:10,023
If it could be demonstrated, one thing that would be a good sign would be if
everyone in BSV was well aware of the disadvantages of hard forking.

680
00:57:10,023 --> 00:57:18,023
So if they had some kind of way of proving to me that they wouldn't hard fork and
you just say, well, they won't because they know it's a bad idea.

681
00:57:18,023 --> 00:57:30,023
And I'm not convinced by that. But if people in BSV knew the dire situation and yet
they were sort of laughing behind the scenes anyway,

682
00:57:30,023 --> 00:57:37,023
which is what I think the Ethereum people do when they do this, you know, this is
silly videos and other silly cultural things they do.

683
00:57:38,023 --> 00:57:44,023
They think this is great. BTC is never going to see this coming.

684
00:57:44,023 --> 00:57:54,023
So if there was a lot of awareness, I mean, the more whoever has the most awareness
is obviously the most dangerous person or one of the most dangerous people in the
room.

685
00:57:54,023 --> 00:58:01,023
And so if you're more aware than you can predict everything that the other person
does.

686
00:58:01,023 --> 00:58:06,023
So that would be obviously be a pretty big green flag.

687
00:58:06,023 --> 00:58:14,023
But you see, it's not it hasn't gone very well, has it? Because actually the
investment, the fork investments have underperformed BTC, have they not?

688
00:58:14,023 --> 00:58:22,023
So one would think if you could predict you would not have been owning this whole
time or maybe something else. I don't know.

689
00:58:22,023 --> 00:58:30,023
Well, they have gone well, because you can actually buy things with BSV.

690
00:58:30,023 --> 00:58:41,023
So you're discounting the benefit of an actual economy by saying that it's
technology that you can buy with BSV, like Twitch or something.

691
00:58:42,023 --> 00:58:47,023
Twitch can be someone could copy Twitch, make a Twitch BTC or something.

692
00:58:47,023 --> 00:58:58,023
Would it be more beneficial to them to join the BSV economy and do something else
than it would be to copy Twitch?

693
00:58:59,023 --> 00:59:17,023
Yes, it's true that if the more kind of stubborn the BTC community is to new ideas,
the greater the danger that they will be unable to respond to the genuine threat by
executing the copy strategy.

694
00:59:17,023 --> 00:59:27,023
So that's true. But I think, you know, when the chips are down and when it's as you
say, BTC can go to zero overnight.

695
00:59:27,023 --> 00:59:34,023
I think the next morning, no one will be listening to, you know, no one will be
listening to Vladimir.

696
00:59:34,023 --> 00:59:37,023
No one will be listening to Adam Back. No one will be listening to safety.

697
00:59:38,023 --> 00:59:49,023
So if that were to ever happen, then it would be it would all be to the new leader
who would, I think, be able to say, OK, we have the best community.

698
00:59:49,023 --> 01:00:00,023
So we have the biggest community. So we will now copy everything and we'll make
whatever BTC, Twitch or whatever it is.

699
01:00:01,023 --> 01:00:06,023
But, yeah, Twitch is clever because it's building the social network is running the
network effect the other way.

700
01:00:07,023 --> 01:00:12,023
So it's saying we're going to have the network effect already in Twitch and then use
it as like an anchor.

701
01:00:13,023 --> 01:00:18,023
But I don't think I've been on Twitch and Twitter has its own network effects.

702
01:00:18,023 --> 01:00:27,023
So it's like smothering. It's very hard to prevail over Twitter, even though Twitter
is doing everything it can to screw up its network effect.

703
01:00:27,023 --> 01:00:35,023
It's so strong that it's just very healthy. I mean, Twitter is that we promoted this
event on Twitter.

704
01:00:36,023 --> 01:00:42,023
And so Twitter, what is the.

705
01:00:44,023 --> 01:00:51,023
Like, do you agree that there is a present benefit to being in the BSV economy that
doesn't exist in the BTC economy?

706
01:00:52,023 --> 01:00:54,023
Do you agree with that? Right.

707
01:00:54,023 --> 01:01:05,023
Well, I think I certainly agree that every single coin has costs and benefits to
being in their community and that a lot of stuff is happening in BSV that is.

708
01:01:06,023 --> 01:01:13,023
Well, but what I'm saying is an actual economy is a present benefit that doesn't
exist in the other coins.

709
01:01:14,023 --> 01:01:16,023
I'm not sure that I.

710
01:01:19,023 --> 01:01:22,023
I don't know if I agree that there is a like a BSV.

711
01:01:24,023 --> 01:01:29,023
You know, I think you're trying to say that because there's Twitch, there's a BSV
economy or something.

712
01:01:30,023 --> 01:01:33,023
I'm not sure I want to walk into that trap just now.

713
01:01:33,023 --> 01:01:36,023
No, I'm not saying because there's Twitch.

714
01:01:37,023 --> 01:01:39,023
What do you mean by BSV economy then?

715
01:01:39,023 --> 01:01:44,023
Well, I mean, BSV has that, you know, something else couldn't have.

716
01:01:45,023 --> 01:01:47,023
No, no, I'm talking about a present benefit.

717
01:01:48,023 --> 01:01:51,023
So I'm not talking about something that other people couldn't have.

718
01:01:52,023 --> 01:01:53,023
You're saying that's inherently BSV.

719
01:01:54,023 --> 01:01:55,023
No, I'm not. No, no.

720
01:01:56,023 --> 01:02:00,023
My question was, there is a you agree that there's a present benefit to being in
BSV.

721
01:02:01,023 --> 01:02:05,023
Because I'm not saying that other people couldn't copy it.

722
01:02:05,023 --> 01:02:07,023
I'm saying that they just don't have it now.

723
01:02:09,023 --> 01:02:10,023
Do you agree with that?

724
01:02:10,023 --> 01:02:12,023
Yes, I think that sounds fine.

725
01:02:12,023 --> 01:02:24,023
Okay, so you have to, you can either get that benefit now, or you can copy it while
other people are getting it and you're not.

726
01:02:26,023 --> 01:02:28,023
See, do you agree with that?

727
01:02:32,023 --> 01:02:35,023
Sorry, I actually just spilled some water just now and it was a little distracting.

728
01:02:36,023 --> 01:02:37,023
What did you say?

729
01:02:37,023 --> 01:02:47,023
I said, you can get that benefit now, or you can try to copy it while you're not
getting it and someone else is.

730
01:02:48,023 --> 01:02:49,023
Yeah, that's true.

731
01:02:50,023 --> 01:02:55,023
Well, I thought that was a little bit what I was trying to say about Twitch where
it's like this anchor where people are already doing something.

732
01:02:56,023 --> 01:03:07,023
Part of my position is that if you onboard people to crypto, or if someone is
onboard, like let's say you onboard someone to BSV from the US dollar land.

733
01:03:08,023 --> 01:03:22,023
Part of my position is that they're de facto onboarded to like basically every other
cryptocurrency at the same time because they all have a lot more in common than
differences, especially if you have like some kind of, you know, they have like the
Jaxx mobile wallet or something.

734
01:03:23,023 --> 01:03:28,023
They all have like a similar thing where there's a word, 12 word seed or some kind
of seed or something.

735
01:03:29,023 --> 01:03:31,023
And, you know, like a QR code.

736
01:03:32,023 --> 01:03:35,023
So basically you onboard people to the land of crypto kind of first.

737
01:03:36,023 --> 01:03:43,023
And I don't see the, then when they're encrypted, they decide, okay, crypto is
interesting.

738
01:03:44,023 --> 01:03:45,023
What am I going to buy?

739
01:03:46,023 --> 01:03:48,023
Because what do I think will ultimately prevail is money.

740
01:03:49,023 --> 01:03:52,023
Then I think they go with number one for this fortress reason that I.

741
01:03:54,023 --> 01:03:57,023
Okay, well, can you describe this fortress?

742
01:03:58,023 --> 01:03:59,023
What is the nature of the fortress?

743
01:04:01,023 --> 01:04:07,023
Okay, well, first of all, the, as I said, it's like a coin market cap is a hill.

744
01:04:08,023 --> 01:04:12,023
And as the further you get up on coin market cap, you're a higher and higher spot on
the hill.

745
01:04:13,023 --> 01:04:15,023
And BTC is in the number one spot.

746
01:04:16,023 --> 01:04:20,023
But not only are they on the best spot on the hill, but the number one spot has a
special fortress around it.

747
01:04:21,023 --> 01:04:29,023
And the hill is like those network effects about people preferring to have one money
instead of two.

748
01:04:30,023 --> 01:04:35,023
You know, you need euros if you want to spend money in Europe, that type of thing.

749
01:04:36,023 --> 01:04:42,023
The number one spot, the fortress is a combination of being the number one spot and
being the status quo.

750
01:04:43,023 --> 01:04:44,023
So maybe that wasn't clear.

751
01:04:45,023 --> 01:04:50,023
I mean, the status quo is good because of the whole live by the fork, die by the
fork thing that we already spoke about.

752
01:04:51,023 --> 01:04:52,023
Okay, no, I got it.

753
01:04:55,023 --> 01:04:57,023
And then the second thing is the fear of miscoordinating.

754
01:04:58,023 --> 01:04:59,023
Okay, so.

755
01:04:59,023 --> 01:05:09,023
People don't want to leave and go to one hard fork and why one or another and they
say, well, you know what, since so many things will just lead to me losing all my
money immediately.

756
01:05:10,023 --> 01:05:13,023
Instead, what I'm going to do is just stay where I am until I can figure out what to
do.

757
01:05:14,023 --> 01:05:16,023
And that's the most most people are like that.

758
01:05:16,023 --> 01:05:19,023
And that gives the status quo a lot of energy.

759
01:05:19,023 --> 01:05:22,023
So being number one and being status quo, that's the fortress.

760
01:05:23,023 --> 01:05:24,023
Okay, so.

761
01:05:29,023 --> 01:05:39,023
The the the fortress has to do with the the having the biggest network effect and
being able to copy other coins.

762
01:05:40,023 --> 01:05:41,023
Right.

763
01:05:42,023 --> 01:05:43,023
Yes.

764
01:05:43,023 --> 01:05:45,023
Okay, it's very important that you're right.

765
01:05:45,023 --> 01:05:46,023
I forgot.

766
01:05:46,023 --> 01:05:56,023
That's the third element, which is that the number one coin has a special strategy
available to it that the others do not have always at the last moment, kind of.

767
01:05:57,023 --> 01:05:58,023
If you can't beat him, join him.

768
01:05:58,023 --> 01:06:06,023
But stealing the technology and keeping your UTXO set and dumping the old UTXO set
for the usurpers or something like that.

769
01:06:07,023 --> 01:06:10,023
Three kind of legs of the fortress.

770
01:06:10,023 --> 01:06:12,023
Okay, let's talk about this hill idea.

771
01:06:12,023 --> 01:06:15,023
Because I think that you're mistaken on that.

772
01:06:17,023 --> 01:06:25,023
A higher valuation indicates higher expectations of success.

773
01:06:26,023 --> 01:06:27,023
And that's all it indicates.

774
01:06:27,023 --> 01:06:31,023
It doesn't indicate that there is a bigger network effect.

775
01:06:33,023 --> 01:06:36,023
It's just that people believe in success more.

776
01:06:37,023 --> 01:06:43,023
But I agree that if you have a lower price, you're lower on the hill.

777
01:06:43,023 --> 01:06:45,023
But it's also paradoxically a better investment.

778
01:06:45,023 --> 01:06:47,023
So it sort of cancels out.

779
01:06:47,023 --> 01:06:55,023
Well, no, I'm just I'm just saying expectations of success aren't the same thing as
being anywhere close to success.

780
01:06:56,023 --> 01:06:58,023
Wait, wait, wait.

781
01:06:58,023 --> 01:07:08,023
You're talking about this coin market cap as a hill, like as if somebody who's
higher up on the list has higher ground in a conflict.

782
01:07:08,023 --> 01:07:10,023
But I'm saying that that's not true.

783
01:07:13,023 --> 01:07:15,023
They just have people believe in them more.

784
01:07:15,023 --> 01:07:19,023
Like they have more belief in success.

785
01:07:20,023 --> 01:07:23,023
But that's not what's really the higher ground.

786
01:07:26,023 --> 01:07:27,023
I think it is, actually.

787
01:07:27,023 --> 01:07:30,023
I mean, even I can talk about why I think it is.

788
01:07:30,023 --> 01:07:33,023
But I would like to point out that I think a lot of people do agree.

789
01:07:33,023 --> 01:07:36,023
You do see a lot of other people talking.

790
01:07:36,023 --> 01:07:40,023
And I know that this isn't worth very much, especially among the two of us.

791
01:07:40,023 --> 01:07:48,023
But on social media, you do see, for example, someone will say something like, then
XYZ coin will fall out of the top 10.

792
01:07:48,023 --> 01:07:49,023
And that would be terrible.

793
01:07:49,023 --> 01:07:53,023
So I think this is actually a little bit more of a mainstream view.

794
01:07:55,023 --> 01:07:56,023
I think a lot of people hold this view.

795
01:07:56,023 --> 01:07:58,023
That doesn't necessarily make it true.

796
01:07:58,023 --> 01:08:03,023
I mean, the reason why I think it's true is that I don't think things like this are
completely neutral.

797
01:08:03,023 --> 01:08:07,023
I do think that, for example, they can always break a tie, right?

798
01:08:07,023 --> 01:08:20,023
Like if you have two things that are basically the same community, same technology,
but already one of them is in the top 10 and the other one is like in the bottom 30
or something, then that would break the tie.

799
01:08:20,023 --> 01:08:27,023
I'm sure you would agree, and it would probably be decisive even if it weren't quite
a tie.

800
01:08:27,023 --> 01:08:31,023
I think it would help a lot if the two coins are very similar.

801
01:08:31,023 --> 01:08:34,023
It would be a big advantage.

802
01:08:35,023 --> 01:08:41,023
I mean, no.

803
01:08:41,023 --> 01:08:53,023
I mean, like prices in equilibrium, prices are supposed to reflect the actual
factors that contribute to success.

804
01:08:53,023 --> 01:08:56,023
I agree with that.

805
01:08:57,023 --> 01:09:00,023
They don't have to at any particular time.

806
01:09:00,023 --> 01:09:17,023
Like just because a price is what it is does not mean that it is actually in
proportion to the odds of success in the real market.

807
01:09:18,023 --> 01:09:20,023
Well, certainly.

808
01:09:20,023 --> 01:09:40,023
So you have to talk – well, I think that you need to think about the factors that
produce success which are independent of price in order to actually win because
that's how you know which coins are undervalued.

809
01:09:41,023 --> 01:10:01,023
I agree with that, but I don't think that these are like the price of – I mean, I
guess what I would say is that one of the things that makes money successful – I
mean, money has all these properties, right, divisibility, portability, blah, blah,
blah, but one of them is recognizability.

810
01:10:02,023 --> 01:10:16,023
And if you could cast a magic spell on a $20 bill such that it was physically
unchanged but for some reason people wouldn't recognize it, then it would just de
facto become a worthless piece of paper.

811
01:10:16,023 --> 01:10:33,023
So one of the properties of money is recognizability, and you see this a lot when
you try to talk to lay people about Bitcoin that one of the first things that almost
everyone asks is who accepts it or I heard that's getting big lately.

812
01:10:33,023 --> 01:10:36,023
Some people want to know what other people know about Bitcoin.

813
01:10:36,023 --> 01:10:39,023
That is a rational criterion.

814
01:10:39,023 --> 01:10:41,023
Right.

815
01:10:41,023 --> 01:10:43,023
Yeah.

816
01:10:43,023 --> 01:10:46,023
One has a higher market cap.

817
01:10:46,023 --> 01:11:00,023
That is pretty strong evidence that it is more widely known about, accepted, has
more pull in the investing community.

818
01:11:00,023 --> 01:11:02,023
It's more dangerous.

819
01:11:07,023 --> 01:11:09,023
It has a higher position in the hill.

820
01:11:09,023 --> 01:11:11,023
It's higher ground.

821
01:11:12,023 --> 01:11:25,023
If you were wanting to assess the expected success of BSV, what you would look at is
how the people who are using it now look at it.

822
01:11:26,023 --> 01:11:29,023
I agree that there's no guarantee.

823
01:11:29,023 --> 01:11:35,023
It's not as though – yeah, this is annoying for anyone who – all proponents of the
efficient markets hypothesis.

824
01:11:35,023 --> 01:11:48,023
Then if someone was always going to point out, oh, what about this price that didn't
do that or whatever, I don't think the prices are like omniscient information from
God that is perfectly infallible in every way.

825
01:11:48,023 --> 01:11:57,023
There's even an EMH joke that says something like today's price is always right, but
yesterday's price was always wrong or something like that.

826
01:11:57,023 --> 01:12:08,023
I would like to point out that when I talk about the hill and the fortress, those
are all the coins on the hill shooting at each other with like bows and arrows and
stuff like that.

827
01:12:08,023 --> 01:12:12,023
So it isn't about the investors making money.

828
01:12:13,023 --> 01:12:21,023
If you want to make money, you would be more interested in a cheaper coin, but I'm
just saying when the coin – since we're already –

829
01:12:21,023 --> 01:12:23,023
Sorry, I disagree with that one.

830
01:12:23,023 --> 01:12:31,023
Making money means figuring out which coin is going to win and just getting as much
of it as possible.

831
01:12:31,023 --> 01:12:34,023
Well, that's what I agree as well.

832
01:12:35,023 --> 01:12:53,023
If you knew some secret thing about – what I'm saying is if you somehow knew
something that one coin would win, or if you knew that somehow you could cause one
coin to win and the options were an expensive coin and a cheaper coin, you would buy
the cheaper coin because you could get a higher ROI.

833
01:12:53,023 --> 01:12:56,023
That's all I was saying about that.

834
01:12:56,023 --> 01:13:05,023
Okay, good, great. You're already almost there then. So what would you do to ensure
that any coin would win?

835
01:13:06,023 --> 01:13:27,023
Well, I don't know if I – I don't know how well that question even interfaces with
my point of view because as I've said, the way I see it, there's one guy has a
fortress on the top of the hill, and it's quite – I don't know if anyone would know
what it takes to even storm this fortress.

836
01:13:27,023 --> 01:13:32,023
Okay, but if you wanted to take a challenge, how would you storm the fortress?

837
01:13:32,023 --> 01:13:42,023
Well, I mean, there are a lot of weaknesses in the fortress. So one is that the
culture in BTC is like winding down and becoming sort of decadent.

838
01:13:42,023 --> 01:13:50,023
So it could be a lot like Rome and the Visigoths where – I mean, we haven't seen
that much actual progress.

839
01:13:51,023 --> 01:14:11,023
Well, you saw just a few days ago how divided people were over like the silliest
variable name change controversy, which is like something of basically no
significance whatsoever, but it became this big thing, and there's a lot of angry
arguing about it.

840
01:14:11,023 --> 01:14:25,023
So yeah, I would push more on that lever, and then I would pretend to be a big fan
of all the dumb sociopaths in BTC and suck up to them so that they further drive the
community into stasis.

841
01:14:26,023 --> 01:14:39,023
Yeah, there's almost nothing that you can't – if the wrong culture takes over,
there's nothing that – there's no advantage that's so great that you can't still
screw it up.

842
01:14:40,023 --> 01:14:50,023
So it's not as though it's an impregnable fortress. It's true that BTC, the culture
has switched from Bitcoin versus the banks.

843
01:14:50,023 --> 01:15:01,023
It has switched to if we just defend everything exactly the way it is, then we, the
chosen people, will ascend into paradise while doing no work.

844
01:15:01,023 --> 01:15:03,023
And obviously, that's not a very –

845
01:15:03,460 --> 01:15:05,460
Obviously, that's not a very helpful culture, but I do think that –

846
01:15:06,460 --> 01:15:09,460
Wait a minute. You're doing a really good job losing this debate, I think.

847
01:15:09,460 --> 01:15:10,460
I know.

848
01:15:16,460 --> 01:15:20,460
Can I suggest an idea about storming the fortress?

849
01:15:20,460 --> 01:15:27,460
But all I'm saying is I'm not optimistic that any of this is going to work or that
it even matters, because as I've said, I don't think that –

850
01:15:28,460 --> 01:15:30,460
I just want to suggest an idea.

851
01:15:30,460 --> 01:15:31,460
All right.

852
01:15:32,460 --> 01:15:43,460
Okay. So remember that we talked about a present benefit of BSV existing that the
other coins don't have.

853
01:15:44,460 --> 01:15:57,460
And in order to gain that present benefit, in order to gain that benefit, BTC has to
copy BSV.

854
01:15:58,460 --> 01:16:11,460
But it can be the case that a person who learns faster would want the present
benefit.

855
01:16:12,460 --> 01:16:13,460
You see what I mean?

856
01:16:13,460 --> 01:16:21,460
So then BTC will never learn because BSV will be attracting the fastest learners.

857
01:16:22,460 --> 01:16:23,460
Well, I agree with that.

858
01:16:23,460 --> 01:16:35,460
In fact, I wrote a blog post two years ago called IMAX Imposed Mutual Exclusivity
for Features, which is about how to stop –

859
01:16:36,460 --> 01:16:40,460
it's about how you would stop BTC, basically.

860
01:16:40,460 --> 01:16:47,460
I mean, it's written in a more general way, but it is kind of about this problem of
how to stop BTC from copying a better –

861
01:16:47,460 --> 01:16:52,460
like how you would hard fork in a way that would actually be threatening to BTC.

862
01:16:52,460 --> 01:17:05,460
And the purpose of writing the article was to make innovation better because the
fact that BTC can copy technology means that it's not threatened by altcoins,

863
01:17:05,460 --> 01:17:10,460
and it can afford to get lazy, which I think it kind of has gotten a little lazy.

864
01:17:10,460 --> 01:17:16,460
But I have to say that it's not – you mentioned about how I agreed with you that BSV
has some benefits.

865
01:17:16,460 --> 01:17:19,460
What I really say is that all the coins have benefits.

866
01:17:19,460 --> 01:17:27,460
There are pros and cons, and I think a lot of the benefits – when I said that, I
remember trying to bring this up –

867
01:17:27,460 --> 01:17:39,460
that a lot of the benefits that these smaller coins have is just that they are
newer, and in fact, they're lower down on the hill,

868
01:17:39,460 --> 01:17:45,460
which makes it easier for people to cooperate because they all share the same goal
of doing better.

869
01:17:45,460 --> 01:17:50,460
But once the community grows and sees some success, they will be more infighting.

870
01:17:50,460 --> 01:17:57,460
This is like a timeless principle. Whenever there's some big, ominous threat,
everyone works as a team.

871
01:17:57,460 --> 01:18:05,460
But once you're on top, then all the bickering and animosity begins.

872
01:18:05,460 --> 01:18:12,460
Okay, so you're not convinced that BSV has a present benefit that the other coins
don't have.

873
01:18:12,460 --> 01:18:16,460
I would say the benefit is it's not sustainable.

874
01:18:16,460 --> 01:18:19,460
No, but you understand what I'm saying, though.

875
01:18:19,460 --> 01:18:25,460
If there was something like that, then that would be an avenue for storming the
fortress.

876
01:18:25,460 --> 01:18:35,460
It's in Verona that I wrote this post, and in the post I did write something about
how you want to control the rate at which other people learn information about the
feature.

877
01:18:36,460 --> 01:18:43,460
So I agree with you about that, that what you want is for people to be frustrated,
and you want them to defect as soon as possible.

878
01:18:43,460 --> 01:18:49,460
You don't want them to stay and try and convince people in the fortress that it's a
good idea.

879
01:18:49,460 --> 01:18:54,460
You just want them to say, you know, fuck this, I'm out.

880
01:18:54,460 --> 01:19:03,460
And then, like on Monday, some people will learn and leave, and then Tuesday some
people will learn and leave, and Wednesday some people will learn and leave.

881
01:19:03,460 --> 01:19:06,460
Eventually there won't be enough people in the fortress.

882
01:19:06,460 --> 01:19:17,460
I'm sorry, but I think that there's a big mistake in what you're saying, because not
all the people in the fortress are worth coaxing out.

883
01:19:17,460 --> 01:19:20,460
Right, I agree with that.

884
01:19:20,460 --> 01:19:35,460
I mean, if you have a fortress of people who can't ever learn, then you don't need
to coax them out, because they're never going to gain that present benefit.

885
01:19:36,460 --> 01:19:41,460
Well, I think some people, I think not everyone is good for the community.

886
01:19:41,460 --> 01:19:58,460
This is the geeks, mops, and sociopaths story has played out in Bitcoin, and there
are a lot of people who just fleece Bitcoiners for money to get them to, you know,
come to events or whatever, or just for their own ego.

887
01:19:59,460 --> 01:20:12,460
And they are kind of parasites on Bitcoin, and obviously it would be ideal to keep
those or attract more parasites to BTC if you were trying to sabotage it.

888
01:20:13,460 --> 01:20:41,460
But I don't think that, you know, you've done a good job of getting me to talk all
about this, but as I've said, I'm not convinced that it's, I just don't think it's
good enough, especially for something like BSV, where, I mean, I think the BCH fork
was kind of messed up from the get-go, and BSV is not a fork of BTC, it's a fork of
BCH, so it inherits problems of BTC.

889
01:20:41,460 --> 01:20:45,460
BTC is also a fork of Bitcoin Cash.

890
01:20:46,460 --> 01:21:07,460
Well, yeah, I understand what you mean by that. That's true, but, you know, you
would agree with me that if I search the Bitcoin Cash GitHub, I'm going to find a
commit somewhere where it types in a certain date, which will correspond to August
1st, 2017.

891
01:21:08,460 --> 01:21:26,460
And it will probably be encoded in Unix time, and that date will be a kind of switch
in the protocol that switches it to a different line of code than, and in BTC,
there'll be no such reference.

892
01:21:26,460 --> 01:21:28,460
Well, yeah, there would, because there would be SegWit.

893
01:21:30,460 --> 01:21:31,460
Right.

894
01:21:31,460 --> 01:21:36,460
Oh, that's true, but that's a coincidence, you know, that this happens to be August
1st.

895
01:21:37,460 --> 01:21:40,460
Yeah, I agree, those are forks.

896
01:21:40,460 --> 01:21:44,460
Okay, but, so anyway, I still think that you are...

897
01:21:45,460 --> 01:21:48,460
No, but that's actually quite an important point, don't you think?

898
01:21:48,460 --> 01:22:00,460
No, I don't agree with that, no, I mean, because, like, BTC had already changed a
bunch of stuff before.

899
01:22:01,460 --> 01:22:05,460
I agree that every time there's a big change to the protocol.

900
01:22:05,460 --> 01:22:14,460
Especially SegWit was a huge change to the protocol, to the point where people
didn't even get the same block, or even really the same block header, because it's
no longer the Merkle tree.

901
01:22:15,460 --> 01:22:22,460
Yeah, but a change later, a change later could just be going back, it could be
revoking an earlier change.

902
01:22:22,460 --> 01:22:42,460
Yes, well, it could be, but I'm just saying what actually happens in BTC is that
there have been these soft fork events where the protocol has done some kind of
upgrade.

903
01:22:43,460 --> 01:22:54,460
And there have been, one of those soft fork events, at least, was done via a
certain, you know, a predefined time.

904
01:22:55,460 --> 01:23:06,460
But BCH's split from BTC is one of those things, so it did split off and make a new
thing.

905
01:23:07,460 --> 01:23:25,460
Well, but there wasn't any, there wasn't any action on the part of the people
holding the coins, which made them go in either direction, they just went in both
directions at the same time.

906
01:23:26,460 --> 01:23:29,460
So, there isn't...

907
01:23:30,460 --> 01:23:41,460
The protocol for BCH underwent this specific change, there's a specific date and
there's also a specific one, somewhere a digit one became the digit eight.

908
01:23:42,460 --> 01:23:43,460
Yeah, but...

909
01:23:43,460 --> 01:23:52,460
Block size increase, so those are things, specific details that are inherent to BCH
that BTC is totally ignorant of.

910
01:23:53,460 --> 01:24:01,460
It could have been, as far as BTC knows, the date was, you know, August 2nd, and
instead of an eight, it was 40 or some other number.

911
01:24:02,460 --> 01:24:07,460
So, these are the details of that one commit to find BCH, but BTC ignores them.

912
01:24:07,460 --> 01:24:10,460
Well, yeah, but what really matters is the people.

913
01:24:11,460 --> 01:24:21,460
So, what I'm saying is that it's illiterate because the people holding the coins
didn't make a choice either way, they just went in both directions.

914
01:24:22,460 --> 01:24:31,460
That's fine, I think that's fine. Obviously, the hard fork is much better, as you
and I have long discussed, the hard fork is much better than an altcoin.

915
01:24:31,460 --> 01:24:35,460
My problem with the hard fork is that they're not competitive enough, is what I'm
trying to say.

916
01:24:36,460 --> 01:24:48,460
I wish they were more of a threat and could induce everyone to compete and stay
focused on their objective goal of progress in the real world.

917
01:24:49,460 --> 01:25:00,460
Instead of becoming a weird self-referential, like, kind of pseudo-academic
bureaucratic ego thing that is just about paying salaries to each other.

918
01:25:01,460 --> 01:25:05,460
That would be better. I would prefer it if every hard fork...

919
01:25:06,460 --> 01:25:15,460
My ideal situation would be something like every hard fork just gets half the market
cap on day two, and then they fight it out from there, or something like that.

920
01:25:16,460 --> 01:25:17,460
But, you know, obviously that doesn't happen.

921
01:25:18,460 --> 01:25:20,460
Okay, well...

922
01:25:26,460 --> 01:25:34,460
I guess I don't have... well, I have one more thing to discuss, I guess, which is...

923
01:25:36,460 --> 01:25:42,460
Can I continue then on that topic if you want to? Because I have a couple more
things to say about that topic.

924
01:25:42,460 --> 01:25:43,460
Oh, okay, yeah.

925
01:25:44,460 --> 01:25:49,460
So I think that it's kind of... another thing that would be ideal would be is if...

926
01:25:50,460 --> 01:25:59,460
Well, first of all, as you and I have already discussed, the BCH replay protection
situation was basically the opposite of what it should have been.

927
01:25:59,460 --> 01:26:15,460
And certainly the idea of doing it kind of, like, almost in secret in August, and
then it only being, like, the alternative, the official alternative months later in
November, that's, like, one of the worst things you could possibly do.

928
01:26:16,460 --> 01:26:27,460
And it sort of almost introduces this weird, like, pre-mine kind of aspect to who's,
like, owning the coin and when exactly this information was revealed to potential
investors and other things like that.

929
01:26:27,460 --> 01:26:41,460
But one thing that could... a very tangible thing that I think would make all hard
forks a lot more competitive is if they would just have some kind of patch set
where...

930
01:26:42,460 --> 01:26:56,460
Or some kind of script that just goes through the BPC source code and just makes all
the changes to that code so that there's no need... there's as few differences as
possible between the two code bases.

931
01:26:56,460 --> 01:27:04,460
So, ideally, there would just be the one commit for BCH that would say, this is the
commit that defines BCH.

932
01:27:05,460 --> 01:27:07,460
On this date, the block size will go up to this.

933
01:27:08,460 --> 01:27:12,460
Whatever else will happen, the sigops will go to this, the network magic will go to
this, whatever.

934
01:27:13,460 --> 01:27:15,460
The point is just one little commit anyone can read.

935
01:27:16,460 --> 01:27:20,460
And then after that, you just do nothing and you just wait for BTC to do some other
software release.

936
01:27:21,460 --> 01:27:28,460
And when they do that in the future, you just say, okay, here's what I have to
change for this to make it compatible with BCH.

937
01:27:29,460 --> 01:27:31,460
And then you just do stuff like that.

938
01:27:32,460 --> 01:27:34,460
So that's something I think...

939
01:27:35,460 --> 01:27:41,460
There's no need... I mean, BCH is currently like thousands of commits ahead of BTC.

940
01:27:42,460 --> 01:27:44,460
Many of them are frivolous.

941
01:27:45,460 --> 01:27:55,460
And any single commit... I mean, the diff alone in HTML is like 15 megabytes or
something.

942
01:27:55,460 --> 01:27:59,460
So any line of code could contain some kind of disastrous...

943
01:28:02,460 --> 01:28:09,460
Well, yeah, Bitcoin was being screwed over from both sides when the split happened.

944
01:28:10,460 --> 01:28:19,460
So this is just my example of how it is that the hard forks are not competitive
enough to even compete with BTC.

945
01:28:20,460 --> 01:28:24,460
So this is weird because it's a strange argument that I'm trying to make, which is
that I wish that...

946
01:28:25,460 --> 01:28:34,460
I wish it were easier to attack the BTC fortress in a way because you would attack
it by a hard fork and there'd be more progress in the long run.

947
01:28:35,460 --> 01:28:36,460
Well...

948
01:28:37,460 --> 01:28:42,460
Unfortunately, it's not because everyone's determined to do these very strange
things.

949
01:28:42,460 --> 01:28:51,460
But now BSV has inherited all this code from BCH and now it is like a giant mess.

950
01:28:53,460 --> 01:28:56,460
But people can just write their own implementations.

951
01:28:57,460 --> 01:28:59,460
There doesn't need to be a...

952
01:29:00,460 --> 01:29:01,460
Maybe we could do that.

953
01:29:02,460 --> 01:29:06,460
But the problem is who will prevail is more of a network effect thing yet again.

954
01:29:07,460 --> 01:29:10,460
If mine disagrees with...

955
01:29:11,460 --> 01:29:14,460
If I'm for BCH, I mean, BCH is a bad example because they're about to split again.

956
01:29:15,460 --> 01:29:16,460
So they have an even bigger problem than this.

957
01:29:17,460 --> 01:29:27,460
But if I try to make my own BSV implementation and it differs from the prevailing,
the one that currently prevails, then who are people going to side with?

958
01:29:28,460 --> 01:29:31,460
They're going to side with whichever one more people are siding with.

959
01:29:32,460 --> 01:29:38,460
No, I mean, you have to get it to work the same if you're going to make an alternate
implementation.

960
01:29:39,460 --> 01:29:43,460
Yes, but now I have to go through theirs. I have to learn theirs line by line.

961
01:29:44,460 --> 01:29:45,460
I have to find every bug.

962
01:29:46,460 --> 01:29:51,460
Every bug has to be exactly the same because otherwise it'll fall out of consensus,
or it's at risk of falling out of consensus.

963
01:29:52,460 --> 01:29:54,460
Well, I mean, if it does, you can just fix it.

964
01:29:55,460 --> 01:29:56,460
This may be true.

965
01:29:57,460 --> 01:29:58,460
I don't know.

966
01:29:59,460 --> 01:30:07,460
I would go through anyway to learn all the ways that I may need to fix it or may not
need to fix it.

967
01:30:08,460 --> 01:30:13,460
Or just for troubleshooting reasons, I may end up having to do all this work to
learn theirs.

968
01:30:14,460 --> 01:30:19,460
It's still expensive to compete. I want it to be very cheap to compete.

969
01:30:20,460 --> 01:30:21,460
Okay.

970
01:30:28,460 --> 01:30:29,460
We've got a second here.

971
01:30:30,460 --> 01:30:35,460
You had one other set of questions or points you wanted to make, Daniel.

972
01:30:36,460 --> 01:30:38,460
I just think that...

973
01:30:39,460 --> 01:30:40,460
No, I'm done.

974
01:30:41,460 --> 01:30:42,460
I'm done.

975
01:30:42,460 --> 01:30:51,460
Okay, well, if there are any last closing thoughts, we can kind of steer towards
that and then wrap up on the hour, if that sounds good with you guys.

976
01:30:53,460 --> 01:30:54,460
I have a question.

977
01:30:59,460 --> 01:31:04,460
A lot of people in here have been around for quite a while.

978
01:31:05,460 --> 01:31:09,460
When a hard fork happens, you're no longer on one train.

979
01:31:10,460 --> 01:31:11,460
You're now on two trains.

980
01:31:16,460 --> 01:31:18,460
I think the question I have is...

981
01:31:20,460 --> 01:31:27,460
Paul, you said you'd like to get off the train, but you're not convinced that it's a
good outcome for you.

982
01:31:28,460 --> 01:31:29,460
Right.

983
01:31:30,460 --> 01:31:37,460
However, if you already had pre-split coin, one thing that I think about is...

984
01:31:38,460 --> 01:31:39,460
There's kind of two camps.

985
01:31:41,460 --> 01:31:42,460
I'm going to be on both trains.

986
01:31:44,460 --> 01:31:45,460
Bitcoin is the sum of all the forks.

987
01:31:48,460 --> 01:31:54,460
Pre-split coin, I was going to leave it pre-split and ride it out with both.

988
01:31:54,460 --> 01:31:57,460
Obviously, that doesn't work when you're trying to add to your position.

989
01:31:58,460 --> 01:32:09,460
If you make changes to pre-split things, i.e. I'm going to sell the fork to fortify
my position inside the fortress, that would be an indicator.

990
01:32:10,460 --> 01:32:14,460
I'm not asking you guys to talk about that unless you feel comfortable doing it.

991
01:32:15,460 --> 01:32:16,460
That would be one question.

992
01:32:16,460 --> 01:32:24,460
The second question is, can you think about Drivechain as a force field around the
fortress?

993
01:32:28,460 --> 01:32:33,460
First of all, I wish it were the case that every hard fork landed you on a different
train.

994
01:32:34,460 --> 01:32:44,460
What I really think happens is that you're cloned into two people, and one of them
is 15 feet in Euclidean space to the left.

995
01:32:44,460 --> 01:32:46,460
He dies instantly.

996
01:32:50,460 --> 01:32:54,460
I wish that it did. I'm very empathetic to the strategy of just holding all forks.

997
01:32:55,460 --> 01:32:56,460
I think that's a pretty good idea.

998
01:32:57,460 --> 01:33:02,460
Every decision you make should be motivated by some kind of differential knowledge
that you have.

999
01:33:03,460 --> 01:33:06,460
It depends on what generation of Bitcoiner you are.

1000
01:33:06,460 --> 01:33:13,460
Most people that I talked to learned about Bitcoin.

1001
01:33:14,460 --> 01:33:18,460
Everyone thought that Bitcoin was a totally stupid idea, but we knew that it had the
potential for greatness.

1002
01:33:19,460 --> 01:33:28,460
That was long before Dan Larimer and Vitalik Buterin threw a bunch of chaos into
crypto with all these weird ideas, and long before ICOs.

1003
01:33:29,460 --> 01:33:38,460
If that's what you did, because as an investor, you only have 24 hours a day.

1004
01:33:39,460 --> 01:33:45,460
You have to invest your time in learning and then make it some kind of financial
investment.

1005
01:33:46,460 --> 01:33:49,460
It's smart to just stick with what you did.

1006
01:33:50,460 --> 01:33:51,460
You did the due diligence first.

1007
01:33:52,460 --> 01:33:54,460
Is Bitcoin a stupid idea? No.

1008
01:33:55,460 --> 01:33:57,460
Are altcoins a stupid idea? Yes.

1009
01:33:58,460 --> 01:34:04,460
Unless you've done a lot more in-depth research, you should just hold all the forks.

1010
01:34:05,460 --> 01:34:09,460
That's reasonable, and you shouldn't undo that unless you have a lot of reasons.

1011
01:34:10,460 --> 01:34:21,460
The factors determining which fork prevail, I think, are very, very different from
will some crypto prevail over fiat currency.

1012
01:34:22,460 --> 01:34:23,460
It's extremely different.

1013
01:34:23,460 --> 01:34:35,460
For starters, we know that the US government is not going to respond to Bitcoin by
dramatically redoing the tax structure so that it's a Georgia's land value tax,

1014
01:34:36,460 --> 01:34:44,460
immediately legalizing all drugs, prostitution, and capital flight, and eliminating
the income tax.

1015
01:34:45,460 --> 01:34:46,460
We know that they won't do any of those things.

1016
01:34:47,460 --> 01:34:55,460
The advantage that crypto has over fiat is basically a very powerful one.

1017
01:34:56,460 --> 01:34:59,460
The second question is, is Drivechain a force field?

1018
01:35:00,460 --> 01:35:03,460
Drivechain lets you teleport around to wherever you like.

1019
01:35:04,460 --> 01:35:11,460
I think it would be like a force field around the number one coin because now you
don't even have a pretext for competing with the coin.

1020
01:35:11,460 --> 01:35:18,460
You can't even say, I really like the term completeness or I really like ring
signatures.

1021
01:35:19,460 --> 01:35:22,460
Drivechain lets you wormhole into other projects, basically.

1022
01:35:23,460 --> 01:35:25,460
Yeah, but it's for that reason that you would...

1023
01:35:26,460 --> 01:35:31,460
How do you not see that as the same thing as holding the forks and then you get a
hard fork?

1024
01:35:32,460 --> 01:35:34,460
It's very easy. Okay, that's a very good question.

1025
01:35:34,460 --> 01:35:43,460
The difference is the new people who become onboarded, the new people who are just
learning today for the first time about Bitcoin,

1026
01:35:44,460 --> 01:35:48,460
and to them, all these things look the same.

1027
01:35:49,460 --> 01:35:56,460
They will be biased towards the coins that are further up on the hill.

1028
01:35:57,460 --> 01:36:01,460
The other thing is UTXO sets will unravel on the hard forks.

1029
01:36:02,460 --> 01:36:15,460
In my view, the lower valued coin of the fork will become an altcoin slowly over
time as the UTXO set diverges,

1030
01:36:16,460 --> 01:36:19,460
and then it will eventually just de facto have altcoin status.

1031
01:36:20,460 --> 01:36:27,460
But yeah, one of the main benefits of Drivechain is that there's no need to argue
about having any hard fork,

1032
01:36:28,460 --> 01:36:33,460
and there's no need to leave Bitcoin for some other thing like Zcash because you can
just do it in Bitcoin.

1033
01:36:34,460 --> 01:36:35,460
Same unit.

1034
01:36:36,460 --> 01:36:37,460
So they exchange at par.

1035
01:36:38,460 --> 01:36:40,460
There are different pieces of software that can exchange at par.

1036
01:36:41,460 --> 01:36:44,460
So yeah, it's like a force field, I'm sure.

1037
01:36:45,460 --> 01:36:46,460
I don't know.

1038
01:36:46,460 --> 01:36:47,460
We do have a question here.

1039
01:36:48,460 --> 01:36:49,460
I think it's for Daniel.

1040
01:36:50,460 --> 01:36:58,460
So how can anyone actually buy food and shelter with BSV and not BTC or ETH?

1041
01:36:59,460 --> 01:37:01,460
I don't know that that distinction matters.

1042
01:37:02,460 --> 01:37:07,460
But yeah, who are your food and shelter, your BSV food and shelter providers,
Daniel?

1043
01:37:08,460 --> 01:37:14,460
Oh yeah, so that's a metaphor because we don't actually do food and shelter in BSV
yet.

1044
01:37:15,460 --> 01:37:26,460
But what I meant was that we have an economy where people are producing things for
each other that they actually need.

1045
01:37:27,460 --> 01:37:34,460
But yeah, if civilization collapsed, we wouldn't be doing very well with what we
have now.

1046
01:37:35,460 --> 01:37:52,460
But my point is that we have what is required to survive out in the cold, in Paul's
metaphor.

1047
01:37:53,460 --> 01:37:59,460
And it's just capitalism.

1048
01:38:00,460 --> 01:38:09,460
And so that's not something that you can learn by just copying features.

1049
01:38:10,460 --> 01:38:22,460
That's not something that people in the other coins actually have, as far as I can
tell.

1050
01:38:22,460 --> 01:38:30,460
So in summation here, Paul, are you moving all of your holdings to BSV this evening?

1051
01:38:31,460 --> 01:38:32,460
That's what everybody wants to know.

1052
01:38:33,460 --> 01:38:34,460
No, I don't think so.

1053
01:38:35,460 --> 01:38:36,460
Not sure about that.

1054
01:38:37,460 --> 01:38:38,460
I have sort of an open mind.

1055
01:38:39,460 --> 01:38:44,460
I have a little bit of BSV, but I haven't confirmed to play with.

1056
01:38:45,460 --> 01:38:46,460
He's a BSV maximalist.

1057
01:38:47,460 --> 01:38:51,460
Well, he's lying about not wanting to buy BSV.

1058
01:38:52,460 --> 01:38:53,460
Right, clearly.

1059
01:38:57,460 --> 01:38:58,460
Do you guys have any last comments?

1060
01:38:59,460 --> 01:39:03,460
I thank you both for taking the time this Sunday, and I apologize for the technical
complications.

1061
01:39:04,460 --> 01:39:09,460
You never know what's going to happen in this high-tech world we live in here in
Party Line Chat.

1062
01:39:12,460 --> 01:39:18,460
Well, my closing comment is that Paul is the smartest person in BTC.

1063
01:39:19,460 --> 01:39:25,460
And he still doesn't know what BSV has.

1064
01:39:26,460 --> 01:39:28,460
So they're not going to learn it.

1065
01:39:32,460 --> 01:39:33,460
Apocalypse.

1066
01:39:34,460 --> 01:39:35,460
That could be true.

1067
01:39:36,460 --> 01:39:37,460
Both parts of that.

1068
01:39:37,460 --> 01:39:49,460
I definitely think that a lot of people in BTC do ponder the impression that it's
because of the great technologists there.

1069
01:39:50,460 --> 01:39:55,460
Or it's because of the great code or whatever, I don't know.

1070
01:39:56,460 --> 01:39:58,460
It's because of the great Twitter defense, right?

1071
01:39:59,460 --> 01:40:04,460
If it weren't for the legions of people defending BTC on Twitter and the YouTube
videos,

1072
01:40:04,460 --> 01:40:09,460
then BTC would be a sitting duck and it would just be blown up immediately.

1073
01:40:10,460 --> 01:40:11,460
And that would be the end of BTC.

1074
01:40:12,460 --> 01:40:13,460
But I don't agree with any of that.

1075
01:40:14,460 --> 01:40:22,460
I really see it as a kind of runaway train that's beyond anyone's ability to sort of
help it or hinder it.

1076
01:40:23,460 --> 01:40:25,460
And this is the weird kind of point of view that I have.

1077
01:40:26,460 --> 01:40:29,460
And that is why it is an interesting idea that, if I'm wrong about that,

1078
01:40:30,460 --> 01:40:32,460
then probably everyone else in BTC is as well.

1079
01:40:33,460 --> 01:40:44,460
Because I think that most people are even more deluded about the true causes of the
success of BTC than I am.

1080
01:40:45,460 --> 01:40:46,460
But I think I'm pretty deluded.

1081
01:40:47,460 --> 01:40:48,460
I think it's like nothing matters.

1082
01:40:49,460 --> 01:40:51,460
So I'm very nihilistic about it.

1083
01:40:59,460 --> 01:41:08,460
Well, I mean, I certainly could have tried harder to act stupid.

1084
01:41:09,460 --> 01:41:17,460
But Paul was doing way better than I would have been able to, even if I was trying,
I think.

1085
01:41:18,460 --> 01:41:23,460
As far as saying things that would make him lose the debate.

1086
01:41:24,460 --> 01:41:25,460
He beat me on that.

1087
01:41:26,460 --> 01:41:28,460
Well, I think I did a pretty good job.

1088
01:41:29,460 --> 01:41:33,460
Do we want to get a sign off from the other guys that are hanging out today?

1089
01:41:34,460 --> 01:41:37,460
Do you guys want to give a shout out before we cut it off here?

1090
01:41:38,460 --> 01:41:42,460
Oh, yeah, I have a shout out. Thanks for reminding me.

1091
01:41:43,460 --> 01:41:51,460
The AGI Metanet chat on Telegram, they wanted me to shout them out.

1092
01:41:52,460 --> 01:41:58,460
They talk about artificial intelligence on the Bitcoin BSV blockchain.

1093
01:41:59,460 --> 01:42:00,460
Oh, I dig it.

1094
01:42:01,460 --> 01:42:05,460
I met the other PartyLine crew guys, but that's fine, too.

1095
01:42:06,460 --> 01:42:07,460
Shout out to that AI group.

1096
01:42:08,460 --> 01:42:12,460
I know, but isn't that silly, though? I mean, artificial general intelligence on the
BSV blockchain.

1097
01:42:13,460 --> 01:42:14,460
No, it's not silly.

1098
01:42:15,460 --> 01:42:16,460
It's kind of silly, isn't it?

1099
01:42:17,460 --> 01:42:21,460
Well, if transactions are cheap, then you want to just do everything on Bitcoin.

1100
01:42:22,460 --> 01:42:25,460
All right. So thank you very much for joining us today here on PartyLine Chat.

1101
01:42:26,460 --> 01:42:28,460
We will get back with you before too long.

1102
01:42:29,460 --> 01:42:31,460
Don't eat the sushi.

1103
01:42:34,460 --> 01:42:36,460
Thanks, guys. Thanks, Daniel.