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The topic is Lightning Network, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

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And does that mean that each of the people on the panel represent one of those
things?

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I'll let you guys be the judge.

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Grant is going to host it.

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And he had the easiest name to remember, but it's not written on here, the last
name.

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What was it? Cook, Grant Cook.

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He's from Litecoin Underground.

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He's the host of a weekly Litecoin Twitter or X spaces and the first Litecoin
podcast.

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He is a longtime Litecoin holder and user with a goal of fostering a fun, positive
community for Litecoin.

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And Vlad Costea, they're going to introduce themselves.

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And Paul Sztorc and Joel Valenzuela are going to all introduce themselves as Grant
Cook interviews them all.

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So please give them a warm Litecoin welcome.

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Keep clapping all the way until they get seated or else it's really awkward on the
video.

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Keep clapping until they get seated.

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Yes.

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All right, that is the RAND.

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If you guys aren't familiar with me, my name is Grant Cook.

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I host Litecoin Underground.

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Space is every Wednesday.

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And RAND is one of our followers.

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So I recognize a lot of people who have come in here.

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I just want to thank the Foundation for having us.

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We're doing an interesting topic today.

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But I'm just going to have these guys go down the line, introduce themselves and
kind of what they do.

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So Vlad, if you want to start.

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Yeah. So this panel, is this working?

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I think it should be more here.

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Bring it up.

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OK, so this panel is called the good, the bad, the ugly about the Lightning Network.

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Well, who are you?

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I'm the one who's supposed to defend the Lightning Network.

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So I guess I'm the good.

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Who's the ugly one?

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What do you do?

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You have a podcast, right?

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Yes, I host the Bitcoin Takeover podcast.

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I have been doing this for five and a half years.

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Paul is actually sponsoring me, but today I'm supposed to fight him.

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Yeah, that's true.

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I don't know.

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It's like a conflict of interest there.

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Yeah.

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And Vlad just recently created a Litecoin version of his magazine.

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If you can, go out there and check it out.

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It's beautiful.

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Only 50 of them were printed and 13 of them were signed by Charlie.

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And you can get them for one Litecoin.

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So you better FOMO.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Very cool.

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Very well done.

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And Joel Valenzuela, your claim to fame is living on crypto, right?

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Yeah.

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Among other things.

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Yeah.

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Hey, everyone.

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So my name is Joel Valenzuela, and I've been in crypto around 12 years now.

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But for the past eight years, I've been living unbanked off crypto.

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Currently, I do biz dev and marketing for Dash.

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And I also have my own podcast, as if we needed more in this space,

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called Digital Cash Network.

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And I'm proud to be an occasional guest of the Litecoin Underground as well,

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which is kind of my claim to fame here.

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Yeah.

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And Paul?

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Yes.

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I am Paul Sztorc, founder and CEO of LayerTwo Labs and creator of

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Is this not working?

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Is this going to be good?

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Moving on?

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Let's see.

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You guys hear everybody?

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Lift it a bit.

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Lift it?

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We'll just hold it?

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We're good.

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Does that have something to do with my hands?

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Paul Sztorc, founder and CEO of LayerTwo Labs,

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and creator of Drivechain, which is BIP300-301.

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And that's a pretty important project that I'm going to be talking about,

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I think, at three later today, if we're still on schedule,

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if the schedule didn't change.

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And I also am a big – now I'm a big critic of the Lightning Network.

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I wrote this article, Lightning Network Fundamental Limitations,

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like two and a half years ago.

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And ever since writing that article,

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people have been copying the points and even the format and even the title.

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They have panels that are like lightning limitations and stuff.

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That's a very common thing.

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And so they invited me to come speak on this panel topic.

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Yeah, well, so the reason, I mean, and I think it's kind of worth saying,

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right, this is the Litecoin Summit, and people would say,

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well, the Litecoin Lightning Network isn't really doing anything

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because it's not needed yet.

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So why do you want to talk about Bitcoin lightning at a Litecoin summit?

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And, you know, my thinking about bringing this topic up was that

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we get a little preview into the future, that if we get to see

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how is lightning performing on Bitcoin today,

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does that tell us something about how it will perform on Litecoin in the future?

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What are the limitations?

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What are some things we should be maybe aware of?

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Should we have as much focus on it as Bitcoin has had?

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Or should we stray from it, right?

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I think this is kind of a weird thing.

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I mean, Lightning Network, I think the whole reason that one of the good things,

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it's good for Litecoin that the Lightning Network is such a failure

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because if Lightning Network was so great,

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then we wouldn't have this great BitPay stat that so many people are actually using.

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They can't use BTC, so they just turn to something that works, which is Litecoin.

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And if the Lightning Network worked, that would almost be terrible, I think, for,

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I mean, I'd like to throw that idea out there, perhaps.

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Well, let's do the good, the bad, and the ugly,

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because I think it's a nice way to present this.

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And Vlad, you know, you are what I would say the most entrenched,

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at least you used to be more in the Bitcoin maximalist culture

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where lightning was the primary scaling solution

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and it was the greatest thing in the world.

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It was going to make everybody have free self-custody forever.

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That didn't come to fruition, I would say.

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But what are some of the things you think that has been successful on the Lightning
Network to date?

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Well, if you join the Nostr echo chamber,

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you're going to see that people send each other tips pretty much every day,

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very small amounts.

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It's custodial.

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I think custodial Lightning has some use cases, and it's interesting.

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It's against the reasons why I got into Bitcoin in the first place.

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There seems to be a subset of users who are just fine with having a custodian

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because they believe if it's a Bitcoiner who's custodying the funds as opposed to a
business,

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they're going to be more honest.

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But honestly, there are some reasons to not believe in this.

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Also, I remember back in early 2018 when Lightning finally made it to a main chain.

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It was actually on Litecoin.

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And I ran a node back in the day, and I did some testing.

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It was with eCurrencyHudler.

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I'm not sure if he's here, but he was one of, if not the greatest educator in the
history of Litecoin.

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And he helped me set that up, and then I burned my SSD because of that.

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So I actually do have some proof of work behind trying Lightning so early on.

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And all of that expertise that was generated,

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all the feedback loop from having Lightning on Litecoin was taken to Bitcoin.

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Because Charlie, if he's here, he's probably outside, but he is an investor in
Lightning Labs.

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So Lightning Labs, when they had their LND software, they tested that on Litecoin
first.

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So the first main net transaction for the Lightning network actually happened on
Litecoin,

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which to me is interesting.

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And on the long term, I think if we're going to see the Lightning network growing,

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and I think it will, even if we get Drivechains,

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maybe those are going to be a good way to onboard people to Lightning.

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Who knows?

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Lightning is very chain agnostic, so you can have cross-chain situations where you
swap.

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They're called atomic swaps.

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And on top of this L2, you can have these decentralized exchanges that take no fees,

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and you can build markets with that.

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So Litecoin can actually take the best implementation of Lightning from Bitcoin and
perfect it.

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Right, right.

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Also, Joel, these are the good points.

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You're the bad, I guess.

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No offense, Paul.

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You can see where this is going.

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Joel, what do you think?

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I could be the ugly if people want.

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Because the utopia that was sold was, yeah, these millions of transactions, fee
lists,

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everyone keeps control of their coins, you get enhanced privacy,

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like all the things you love about Bitcoin, but even better.

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That's what was kind of sold for seven years.

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What has prevented that from coming to fruition?

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Yeah, to answer that really quickly, I would say it's structural.

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It's never going to happen like that and never could happen like that because of the
structure.

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But I'm not going to come here as a Lightning critic.

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I'm more of like a realist who thinks it has applications in its place.

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So also for context, I've heard about Lightning since a long time ago,

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and then when it actually kind of started to roll out in the 2021 type era in kind
of a usable way,

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I decided, you know, I've heard all the arguments,

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it's going to work, it's going to do everything,

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and then you got the Bitcoin cash mostly side of things saying,

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oh, it's a big scam, centralize this and that,

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and I'm like, well, I don't actually know, so I'm going to use it.

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So I ran on my own Lightning node, right,

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and experimented with that and ran that for a few months,

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asked for help all over the community,

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bought liquidity channels from BitRefill and things like that

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and just kind of took a deep dive into it as an actual user

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and also used a lot of the more popular, what they call non-custodial Lightning
wallets,

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like Phoenix, for example, is always my go-to breeze as well.

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And I think that the Lightning network largely works under two models,

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which it seems like it's been packaged and sold for neither of these two.

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The one model is that I think was closer to what was originally envisioned,

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might have been, is the more peer-to-peer model

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where everyone will run their own node of some kind,

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everyone will open and close channels all the time,

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that kind of model that would require a lot of on-chain scaling to work.

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And that model, in my opinion, would only work if, first of all,

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you had just significantly more on-chain capacity.

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It would reduce the amount of on-chain transactions by a certain amount,

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but not dramatically.

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Instead of for every five, six, seven Lightning payments,

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you'd have to make an on-chain transaction.

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So it'd cut those down, but you'd still be using a ton of on-chain transactions

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to open a channel.

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Let's say I want to send to Vlad,

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or we're transacting back and forth, we have a channel,

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but then I need to rebalance it every once in a while,

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I'd open a new transaction, or then with Grant or whatever.

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That model can work, but again,

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it doesn't work with the on-chain scaling limitations of Bitcoin.

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The difficult part, too, with the payment channel concept is that

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how often do you really have two-way payments going on with somebody you know?

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It's either I'm paying my rent,

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it's all going in one direction every single month.

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It's not like my landlord is sending me rebates for some reason.

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So having these kind of cooperative payment channels

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doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.

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Yeah, it can in some things.

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Obviously, like the bar tab type situation.

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Let's just say I've been paying Vlad back and forth for whatever,

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and then I decide, oh, I'm going to open a tab at the bar,

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and every time I get a new drink, I pay for it instantly with Lightning.

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And then I don't actually settle on-chain until the end of the night,

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and then Vlad's like, oh, I'm going to buy one, too,

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but then he just piggybacks off of our channel to do it.

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Small cases like that can, again, reduce the amount of on-chain transactions,

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but not substitute for them.

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That's the big thing, is it's sort of been pitched as a substitute.

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If you can substitute them, that's when the other model comes in,

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which is what they call the hub-and-spoke type model,

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which we've started to see happen a lot.

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A lot of Lightning adoption has happened through institutions,

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like, for example, Coinbase, Kraken, all these big things.

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One of the more popular wallets, the Async, the Phoenix wallet,

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connects to this one mega-node that routes everyone's transactions through.

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And unfortunately, I can't really use Lightning anymore

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because after I shut down my node, I was only using the Phoenix wallet,

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and then they don't service U.S. customers anymore

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because of money transmission issues.

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And so now it kind of got shut out of that.

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But the point is, those big kind of hub-and-spoke models

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where everyone has a Lightning service provider,

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like a bank account, kind of, but with semi-self-custody, right,

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where you have funds in a channel that you can sort of force close

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and you can at least steal it.

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Today you do, but we don't know if that lasts.

240
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:46,000
Yeah, so that's the other model that, again, I think can work.

241
00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,000
I think it requires a bunch of trust tradeoffs.

242
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,000
I don't like that world.

243
00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,000
But that's another model that Lightning could be optimized to use for

244
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:58,000
because then the only on-chain transactions are just people,

245
00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,000
like Coinbase and Kraken, rebalancing their channel

246
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,000
if they have some issues with, like, liquidity on one side.

247
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,000
I don't think it will work for either of those,

248
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,000
and I think that it's like the puzzle really, though.

249
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,000
By the way, before we launch into this,

250
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,000
I'm not saying it's the most ideal situation for this.

251
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,000
The puzzle is, given how broken it really is,

252
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,000
why does everyone still talk about it?

253
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,000
And I just think that the actual answer to that is just

254
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,000
that people have invested so much of their ego

255
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,000
or even VC money, et cetera,

256
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,000
so much of the brand of so many different companies.

257
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,000
A lot of people have, like, some people have,

258
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,000
not to name names or whatever, but certain companies,

259
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,000
they have, like, a whole Bitcoin section

260
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,000
and they have, like, a whole Litecoin thing on the top of their web page.

261
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:47,000
So people, it really is like a bizarre kind of psychosis

262
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,000
where even people have started to use the word lightning

263
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,000
to describe things that are completely

264
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,000
and totally unlike what, you know,

265
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,000
the inventors had in mind.

266
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,000
There's something that doesn't use HTLCs,

267
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:01,000
a custodial lightning.

268
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,000
Custodial lightning being the perfect example

269
00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,000
of something that is,

270
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,000
that doesn't even use Bitcoin at all,

271
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,000
is just an account on a website.

272
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:11,000
It's just a number.

273
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:12,000
It's like Bitcoin in name only.

274
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,000
There's no, yeah, there's no HTLCs,

275
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:15,000
there's no Bitcoin,

276
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,000
there's no promise of getting your money back at all,

277
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,000
but people will call that custodial lightning

278
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:22,000
with a straight face.

279
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,000
And so then it just broadens the category

280
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,000
of what is considered the lightning network further

281
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:29,000
and then you have all these weird other problems,

282
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,000
like Wallet or Satoshi or whatever getting pulled

283
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,000
because it's not actually crypto,

284
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,000
it's not actually Bitcoin at all.

285
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,000
They just pull the, they just, people complain

286
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,000
and they say this person is running an unlicensed bank

287
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,000
or whatever, which they are,

288
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:43,000
and then they pull.

289
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:44,000
So you're going to be,

290
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:45,000
obviously I'm going to let Paul be the ugly solution.

291
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:46,000
Yeah.

292
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:47,000
My question to you,

293
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,000
so there's trade-offs, there's compromises,

294
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,000
I think if we're looking at the original intent

295
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:55,000
of Bitcoin and Litecoin to be this self-custody money,

296
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,000
you're obviously sacrificing a lot of those things

297
00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,000
to even interact with lightning at all,

298
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:01,000
at any scale.

299
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,000
Is it salvageable?

300
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,000
Is there anything that Litecoin,

301
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:07,000
using this as a reference and saying,

302
00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,000
well, maybe it's doable if,

303
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,000
the opportunity for Litecoin is,

304
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:15,000
do not fall into the Bitcoin cult and start,

305
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,000
because the Bitcoin cult is very,

306
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,000
very harmful to Bitcoin in many ways.

307
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,000
So the opportunity would be to say,

308
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:24,000
this is Litecoin,

309
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,000
we are not going to drink the Kool-Aid.

310
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:28,000
Right.

311
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:29,000
I'm going to say,

312
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,000
I'm going to mix up lightning and Litecoin,

313
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,000
probably a couple of times if I just say this

314
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:35,000
without thinking about it very carefully,

315
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:39,000
but you want to not drink the lightning Kool-Aid

316
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,000
and say, we will not make that mistake.

317
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,000
I think it has been a huge distraction for BTC

318
00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,000
and it has also, as they say,

319
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:46,000
taken the air,

320
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:47,000
sucked the air out of the room

321
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,000
where people are focusing on that.

322
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,000
The culture rewards moving in that direction.

323
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:54,000
Everyone is,

324
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,000
you can only climb the totem pole

325
00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:00,000
by working on lightning

326
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,000
or you say that you have a lightning project

327
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,000
and you get funding.

328
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,000
This has altered the whole trajectory

329
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:07,000
of everyone's focus

330
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,000
and I think it ultimately will just not pay off.

331
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,000
I actually think almost all the L2s

332
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:12,000
that people are working on

333
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,000
will eventually have a problem

334
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,000
where the fees that they collect

335
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:17,000
are not passed.

336
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:18,000
Everyone has basically the same model,

337
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,000
which is that the fees,

338
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,000
you collect fees from usage

339
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,000
and then that rewards the people

340
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,000
to not rug pull the system.

341
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,000
Even Bitcoin kind of works that way

342
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,000
because the transaction fees

343
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:32,000
are collected each block

344
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:33,000
and then rugging the system

345
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,000
would be rewriting the blocks

346
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:36,000
and rewriting the blocks

347
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:37,000
takes a bit of work

348
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,000
and the cost of writing the blocks

349
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,000
is exactly what the transaction fees is

350
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:42,000
in the future

351
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,000
when there is no block subsidy.

352
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,000
So everyone has that model in mind

353
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,000
but some of the L2s,

354
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:50,000
most of them,

355
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:51,000
including the lightning network,

356
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:52,000
they do not pass the fees

357
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,000
down to the L1 miners

358
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,000
and the reason why that is significant

359
00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:57,000
is because the L1 miners

360
00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,000
can destroy any L2 they want at any point

361
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,000
so if they have a choice

362
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:02,000
between the L1 miners

363
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,000
collecting all these transaction fee revenues

364
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:06,000
from merge mining

365
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:07,000
or something like that

366
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,000
or sitting by and earning nothing

367
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:12,000
and watching someone else,

368
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:13,000
the lightning LSP,

369
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,000
lightning service provider

370
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,000
or the arc super node or whatever,

371
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:18,000
watching those people

372
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,000
earn hundreds of billions of dollars a year

373
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:22,000
in transaction fees

374
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,000
as there is some kind of like hyper

375
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,000
like coinization or hyper or whatever,

376
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:27,000
the L2 takes over,

377
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,000
the arc super node takes over the world

378
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:30,000
and does everyone's payment

379
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:32,000
they will just say,

380
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,000
well, we will just block that,

381
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:35,000
we will block people

382
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:36,000
from sending into or out of that

383
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:37,000
or using that

384
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:38,000
or doing the,

385
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:42,000
even the BitVM challenge thing,

386
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,000
the miners could censor that,

387
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,000
anything based on ZK proofs,

388
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,000
the miner could censor the ZK proof.

389
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:49,000
So...

390
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:50,000
And that is the important thing

391
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,000
that I kind of wanted to drive at

392
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,000
is that lightning is here to stay, right?

393
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:55,000
Unless for some reason

394
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,000
SegWit goes away,

395
00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:57,000
if Coinbase wants to launch

396
00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,000
litecoin lightning,

397
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:00,000
a lot of these businesses

398
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:05,000
may add litecoin lightning capabilities

399
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:06,000
but more than anything,

400
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:07,000
where do we,

401
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:08,000
is this a place

402
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,000
where our energy should be directed?

403
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,000
And again, I'm not a developer

404
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:13,000
and so I think about

405
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:14,000
if I am somebody

406
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,000
who wants to develop on litecoin,

407
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:17,000
what should be the things

408
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,000
that are being focused on

409
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,000
that could bring some scalability

410
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:22,000
and I know Paul's got an answer

411
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:23,000
to a whole presentation

412
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:24,000
about it later today

413
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,000
but that maybe,

414
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,000
those are the things to think about,

415
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,000
don't spend your energy

416
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:31,000
on something that

417
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:32,000
maybe we're seeing

418
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,000
is not able to work

419
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:35,000
in the way that we initially

420
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,000
were told it was going to work.

421
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,000
Well, just give it 18 months.

422
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,000
Yeah, it's everything in 18 months.

423
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:42,000
Everything's two weeks, right?

424
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,000
Yeah, see that's the joke

425
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:45,000
is that lightning,

426
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:46,000
they always said

427
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:47,000
it's 18 months away or whatever.

428
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:48,000
They said that over and over again.

429
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:49,000
They said it was proof of stake.

430
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:50,000
Also, Ethereum said that.

431
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:51,000
But,

432
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,000
Ethereum actually,

433
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:53,000
to their credit,

434
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:54,000
they finally got the,

435
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:55,000
they did proof of stake

436
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:56,000
and you know,

437
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:57,000
people say,

438
00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:58,000
you know,

439
00:18:58,000 --> 00:18:59,000
lightning exists now,

440
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:00,000
lightning works

441
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:01,000
but lightning has,

442
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:02,000
it has only ever had

443
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:03,000
whatever,

444
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:04,000
4,000 something bitcoin

445
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:05,000
on the whole thing

446
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:06,000
which is,

447
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:07,000
I'm not sure exactly,

448
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:08,000
I should probably run the numbers

449
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:09,000
to make absolutely certain

450
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:10,000
but like,

451
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:11,000
look at all the money raised

452
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:12,000
by lightning companies,

453
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:13,000
it's probably less than that.

454
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:14,000
So,

455
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:15,000
this is just like,

456
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:16,000
4,000,

457
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:17,000
if there's 19.5 million coins,

458
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:18,000
this is like

459
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:19,000
a hundredth of a percent.

460
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:20,000
I've got stats somewhere,

461
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:21,000
something like 5,000 bitcoin

462
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:22,000
around the world.

463
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:23,000
So,

464
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:24,000
I don't know.

465
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:25,000
I don't know.

466
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:26,000
I'm not sure.

467
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:27,000
Something like 5,000 bitcoin

468
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:28,000
are on the lightning network

469
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:29,000
but you can't know

470
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:30,000
how many transactions.

471
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:31,000
I think the most evident thing

472
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:32,000
to me

473
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:33,000
is somebody like BitPay

474
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:34,000
offers lightning

475
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:35,000
and nobody uses it.

476
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:36,000
Exactly.

477
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:37,000
BitRefill offers lightning

478
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:38,000
and nobody uses it

479
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:39,000
which is interesting.

480
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:40,000
I use it.

481
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:41,000
Well,

482
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:42,000
but it's interesting to me

483
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:43,000
why that isn't, right?

484
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:44,000
Like,

485
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:45,000
is it the convenience factor?

486
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:46,000
Is it just because

487
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:47,000
it's just more hassle

488
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:48,000
than it's worth?

489
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:49,000
Yeah.

490
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:50,000
Because you would think

491
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:51,000
that people would

492
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:52,000
want free transactions

493
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:53,000
but they don't,

494
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:54,000
they don't seem to want.

495
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:55,000
Yeah.

496
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:56,000
So,

497
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:57,000
I bought a ticket

498
00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:58,000
with lightning

499
00:19:58,000 --> 00:19:59,000
and the fee

500
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:00,000
that I paid to Phoenix

501
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:01,000
was 2.5 dollars

502
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:02,000
and the on-chain fee

503
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:03,000
right now

504
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:04,000
for bitcoin

505
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:05,000
is 50 cents,

506
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:06,000
so.

507
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:07,000
That doesn't make any sense.

508
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,000
That doesn't make any sense.

509
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,000
So,

510
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:10,000
you should use

511
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:11,000
bitcoin.

512
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:12,000
Yeah,

513
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:13,000
and I don't want to say

514
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:14,000
that it can't work

515
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:15,000
or that it

516
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:16,000
will never be good

517
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,000
for one or two other things

518
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:18,000
and in fact,

519
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,000
I came up with something

520
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:20,000
that I called

521
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:21,000
a version of fraud proofs

522
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:22,000
that requires,

523
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:23,000
it basically requires

524
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:24,000
like the lightning network

525
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:25,000
in order to work.

526
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:26,000
I don't know if anyone

527
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:27,000
will ever care about that

528
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:28,000
but,

529
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:29,000
so,

530
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:30,000
I'm not saying

531
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:31,000
that lightning network

532
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:32,000
is like a completely

533
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,000
like evil thing

534
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:35,000
or whatever

535
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:36,000
but what I am saying

536
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:37,000
is there's this giant

537
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:38,000
like illusion field

538
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:39,000
over it

539
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:40,000
where there's,

540
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:41,000
everyone is hyping it

541
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:42,000
because they think

542
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:43,000
lightning equals bitcoin

543
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,000
equals number go up

544
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:46,000
and they,

545
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:47,000
and so,

546
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:48,000
very few of these people,

547
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:49,000
even software engineers

548
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,000
working at lightning companies,

549
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:53,000
many of these people

550
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:54,000
have come up to me,

551
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:55,000
the lightning critic guy,

552
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:56,000
the ugly or whatever,

553
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:57,000
they come up to me

554
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:58,000
as a person

555
00:20:58,000 --> 00:20:59,000
and they say,

556
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:00,000
not until I read your article

557
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:01,000
that I realized

558
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,000
that I didn't know

559
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:03,000
how the lightning network worked

560
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:04,000
or they say stuff like that

561
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:05,000
and I have another post,

562
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:06,000
the LN Black Pill

563
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:07,000
where I have collected quotes

564
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:08,000
from people,

565
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:09,000
the people who are working

566
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:10,000
on the lightning network

567
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,000
including the inventor,

568
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:12,000
Dash Draja,

569
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:13,000
Rene Picard,

570
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:14,000
the author of

571
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:15,000
Mastering Lightning,

572
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:16,000
the book.

573
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:17,000
Well,

574
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:18,000
I think,

575
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:19,000
you know,

576
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:20,000
we got to wrap up

577
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:21,000
here quickly

578
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:22,000
but I think,

579
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:23,000
you know,

580
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:24,000
what's nice about being the host

581
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:25,000
is I get to go last

582
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:26,000
and no one can rebut

583
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:27,000
my opinions here

584
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:28,000
so,

585
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:29,000
no,

586
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:30,000
I think it,

587
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:31,000
you know,

588
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:32,000
just whenever you find

589
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,000
in crypto in general,

590
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:34,000
if someone tries to act

591
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:35,000
like they're going to get

592
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:36,000
everything that they,

593
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:37,000
that the main chain offers

594
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:38,000
and you're going to just get

595
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:39,000
the exact same experience

596
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:40,000
through some other method,

597
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:41,000
I think it's just,

598
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:42,000
you should,

599
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:43,000
your ears should perk up

600
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:44,000
like that doesn't make any sense.

601
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:45,000
How did Satoshi take

602
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,000
years to come up

603
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,000
with this solution

604
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:48,000
and someone's going to

605
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:49,000
just abstract it away

606
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:50,000
in a nice corporate package

607
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:52,000
you know,

608
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:53,000
that doesn't make

609
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:54,000
a whole lot of sense.

610
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:55,000
So,

611
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,000
self-custody,

612
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:57,000
use lightning at your,

613
00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,000
with caution

614
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:00,000
and,

615
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:01,000
yeah,

616
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:02,000
I don't know if you guys

617
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:03,000
want to add any last things,

618
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:04,000
I think we're out of time

619
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:05,000
but,

620
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:06,000
you have one last thing

621
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:07,000
you want to add?

622
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:08,000
Yeah,

623
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:09,000
I would add that,

624
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,000
you know,

625
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:11,000
global payments system,

626
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:12,000
as a global payment system,

627
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,000
I would not recommend

628
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:14,000
the lightning network really.

629
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:15,000
What it does do

630
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,000
is because

631
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,000
it's super localized

632
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,000
and it's like

633
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,000
the transaction

634
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:20,000
between you

635
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:21,000
and whoever you're

636
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:22,000
doing it with,

637
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:23,000
the rest of the network

638
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:24,000
doesn't know about,

639
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:25,000
it doesn't really hit

640
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:26,000
these scaling limitations

641
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:27,000
that global networks do

642
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:28,000
or the same constraints.

643
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:29,000
So,

644
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:30,000
if you have anything

645
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,000
where you have

646
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:32,000
an insane amount

647
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:33,000
of volume

648
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:34,000
that only a few people

649
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:35,000
need to know about

650
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:36,000
and be involved in,

651
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:37,000
it could work for that

652
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:38,000
and so,

653
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:39,000
everyone involved

654
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:40,000
with the lightning network,

655
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:41,000
I would say just

656
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:42,000
abandon the whole

657
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:43,000
like,

658
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:44,000
I'm going to buy my coffee

659
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:45,000
everywhere in the world

660
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:46,000
with part,

661
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,000
I would recommend

662
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:48,000
focus on like maybe

663
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:49,000
an internal social network.

664
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:50,000
Again,

665
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:51,000
like that's why

666
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:52,000
something like Nostr

667
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:53,000
is where

668
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:54,000
you see a lot of this.

669
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,000
Focus on stuff

670
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:56,000
where you need

671
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:57,000
a ton of transactions

672
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:58,000
that the whole world

673
00:22:58,000 --> 00:22:59,000
does not need to know about.

674
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:00,000
Do we have time

675
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:01,000
for questions?

676
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:02,000
Can I do questions?

677
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:03,000
Does anybody have one

678
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:04,000
or are we good?

679
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:05,000
Also,

680
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:06,000
I wrote an article

681
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:07,000
in my magazine

682
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,000
which you'll find outside

683
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:09,000
about lightning

684
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:10,000
and litecoin,

685
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,000
so you can read that

686
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:12,000
if you want.

687
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,000
It's a good intro.

688
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:14,000
It explains lightning

689
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:15,000
as islands

690
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:16,000
that need to build bridges

691
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:17,000
between each other.

692
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:18,000
If you want to send

693
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:19,000
cars to another island,

694
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:20,000
you need to build a bridge.

695
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,000
But the other island

696
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,000
cannot use the same bridge

697
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:23,000
to send cars to you.

698
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:24,000
So,

699
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,000
that's how lightning works.

700
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:26,000
That's good,

701
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:27,000
that's good.

702
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:28,000
Okay,

703
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,000
so no questions?

704
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:30,000
Oh,

705
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:31,000
it says zero up here,

706
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:32,000
so I thought we were done.

707
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:33,000
Okay.

708
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:34,000
All right,

709
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:35,000
there's no questions then?

710
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:36,000
We're good?

711
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,000
I think we're good.

712
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:38,000
You can come up here,

713
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:39,000
Marty.

714
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:40,000
Yeah,

715
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:41,000
go ahead.

716
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,000
It's more an observation.

717
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:44,000
I feel like the discussions

718
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:45,000
around lightning

719
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,000
perhaps it's better

720
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:47,000
to frame them around

721
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:48,000
are we developing

722
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:49,000
and providing

723
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:50,000
lightning network

724
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,000
for business

725
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:52,000
to business solutions?

726
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:53,000
Are we developing

727
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:54,000
and providing

728
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:55,000
lightning network

729
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,000
for business

730
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,000
to consumer choices

731
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:58,000
for consumer to consumer?

732
00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,000
And it may be better

733
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:00,000
for people developing

734
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:01,000
on lightning

735
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:02,000
to have a clearly defined

736
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,000
mission statement

737
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,000
in terms of

738
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:05,000
which of those areas,

739
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:06,000
because it's clear

740
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:07,000
to me listening to this

741
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:08,000
that perhaps

742
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:09,000
it's not a great solution.

743
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:10,000
It could be a

744
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:11,000
not necessarily

745
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:12,000
a great business

746
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:13,000
to consumer solution

747
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,000
but a thing

748
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:15,000
that the world

749
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,000
needs.

750
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:17,000
Yeah.

751
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:18,000
Yeah,

752
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:19,000
the gentleman's question was like

753
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:20,000
can it be like

754
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:21,000
business to business

755
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:22,000
instead of like

756
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:23,000
involving the end user?

757
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:24,000
And this is part of

758
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,000
a big trend

759
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:26,000
of people

760
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:27,000
correctly realizing

761
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:28,000
that the lightning network

762
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:29,000
is not this cure-all

763
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:30,000
that everyone thought it would be

764
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,000
and so now everyone's

765
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:32,000
walking everything back

766
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:33,000
and trying to find some box

767
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,000
where they can fit this.

768
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:35,000
That's what I'm saying

769
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,000
that the gentleman

770
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:37,000
was saying.

771
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,000
But I think definitely

772
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,000
it's not the

773
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:40,000
consumer experience

774
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,000
you know for payments

775
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:42,000
like it cannot

776
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,000
the payment cannot fail.

777
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:45,000
Like if you use

778
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:46,000
if you had Visa

779
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,000
and MasterCard

780
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:48,000
and one of them failed

781
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:49,000
like one out of every hundred times

782
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,000
and the other one

783
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,000
worked every time

784
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,000
that would be

785
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:53,000
the kiss of death

786
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,000
for whichever one

787
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:55,000
failed because it's just

788
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:56,000
too humiliating to be

789
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,000
in the restaurant

790
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:58,000
or waiting in line

791
00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,000
and it doesn't fail

792
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:00,000
and you're like

793
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,000
okay try it again

794
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:02,000
and the lightning network

795
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,000
is not gonna hit

796
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:04,000
that kind of reliability

797
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:05,000
anytime soon

798
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:06,000
and Vlad's metaphor

799
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:07,000
of islands

800
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:08,000
where you have to build the bridge

801
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,000
and you can't ship

802
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:10,000
anything back and forth

803
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:11,000
is very good

804
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:12,000
because the onboarding problem

805
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:13,000
is very severe.

806
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,000
In order to use

807
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:15,000
the lightning network

808
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:16,000
you need to first

809
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:17,000
use an L1 transaction

810
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:18,000
between the two parties.

811
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:19,000
So every single person

812
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:20,000
who wants to join

813
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:21,000
the lightning network

814
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:22,000
has to do something

815
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:23,000
on L1.

816
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:24,000
So you're building

817
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:25,000
an awful lot of bridges

818
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:26,000
for something

819
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,000
where the better solution

820
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,000
would be to just sail around

821
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,000
on the water

822
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:30,000
and not use lumber

823
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,000
or whatever

824
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:32,000
to build these bridges.

825
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:33,000
Or use a plane.

826
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,000
Or use a plane.

827
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,000
Yeah.

828
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:36,000
Yeah.

829
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,000
Right.

830
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:38,000
All right.

831
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:39,000
Well I appreciate it.

832
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,000
Marty's coming up.

833
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,000
Thank you guys.

834
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:42,000
All right.

835
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:43,000
Good job guys.

836
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:44,000
Good job.

837
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,000
I'd like to officially say

838
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:46,000
that I thought I was catching on

839
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:47,000
until you guys got up here

840
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,000
and now I've lost everything.

841
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:49,000
I don't understand

842
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,000
any of it anymore.

843
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:51,000
Short it.

844
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:52,000
Short it?

845
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:53,000
Is that what you said?

846
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:54,000
Yeah.

847
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,000
Good job.

848
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:56,000
Good job.

849
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:57,000
Also just a quick word

850
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:58,000
to the tech guys

851
00:25:58,000 --> 00:25:59,000
who do understand all this.

852
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:00,000
You don't have to hold

853
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,000
the little microphone.

854
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:02,000
You can just attach it

855
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:03,000
to your shirt there

856
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:04,000
and it'll be fine.

857
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:05,000
You don't have to hold

858
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,000
the little microphone

859
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,000
to attach it to your shirt there

860
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,000
and then the audio people

861
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:09,000
who are professionals

862
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:10,000
had set you up with that.

863
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:11,000
That's how audio physics works.

864
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:12,000
It works for like four inches.

865
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:13,000
It's not on the lightning network

866
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:14,000
apparently.

867
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:15,000
I don't even know

868
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:16,000
what just happened.

869
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:17,000
I don't know what happened there.

870
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:18,000
I don't even understand.

871
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:19,000
The Litecoin and Bitcoin

872
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:20,000
is on another network

873
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:21,000
that was hyped for a while online.

874
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:22,000
Is that what was happening?

875
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:23,000
And one person hates it

876
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:24,000
and the other person

877
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:25,000
hates it.

878
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:26,000
I don't understand

879
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:27,000
what's going on.

880
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:28,000
I don't understand

881
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,000
what's going on.

882
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:30,000
I don't understand

883
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:31,000
what's going on.

884
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:32,000
I don't understand

885
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:33,000
what's going on.

886
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:34,000
I don't understand

887
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:35,000
what's going on.

888
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,000
And one person hates it

889
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:37,000
and other people

890
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:38,000
were not really

891
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,000
defending it.

892
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:40,000
I felt like that

893
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:41,000
was very uncomfortable.

894
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:42,000
No one else thought

895
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:43,000
that was uncomfortable?

896
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:44,000
No, I feel like

897
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:45,000
that was the purpose though.

898
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:46,000
I feel like he wrote the blog

899
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:47,000
to be uncomfortable

900
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:48,000
about the lightning network.

901
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,000
At least that was the message

902
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:50,000
I was getting.

903
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:51,000
And so bravo.

904
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,000
That was perfect.

905
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:53,000
And I forgot that

906
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,000
I'm not stalling anymore.

907
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:55,000
I came up here stalling

908
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:56,000
but we had found

909
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:57,000
our next target.

910
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:58,000
And so bravo.

911
00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,000
That was perfect.

912
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:00,000
And I forgot that

913
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:01,000
I'm not stalling anymore.

914
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:01,080
I came up here stalling