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3, 2, 1, Paul! How's it? Here we go!

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Hey, good to see you again.

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Good to see you again, too. Third time on the podcast.

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Yeah, happy to be here.

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I wanted to get a hold of you because I just followed up on that debate with Peter
Todd.

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Yeah, with Peter. What did you think?

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I thought it was shambles. Okay, we can start off with the lowest hanging fruit.

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Peter was rude. He was rather obnoxious.

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The content of his speech was just, he kept avoiding, dodging you.

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And I don't know how you accepted paying that money to him.

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The way I see it is, I'm very interested if there actually objectively is anything
wrong with Drivechain.

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So I think, okay, this is the best that the universe has got. This is the best
microscope that the universe has.

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And it's not a very good one. But I thought I will leave no stone unturned.

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I was really surprised. He put almost no effort into looking into the idea.

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And it's obvious that he has never really visited drivechain.info, the site.

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As he said in Baltic Honey Badger, that there is no code.

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But even though we have software that has a GUI, we've had that for years.

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So I don't know. I think he just has this idea in his head of what it is.

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And he's unwilling to, some people just don't take anything in.

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They have no inputs. And they just think.

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So yeah, I don't know. But I thought that maybe we'd get something out of that.

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I was surprised he didn't even say any of these.

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Sometimes people come up with, I think it's all concern trolling and it's all fake.

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And it's all just people shilling their, they have some kind of alternative
investments.

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So many of these people are actually altcoiners.

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Or they just have some big LN, lightning narrative.

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Or they have some kind of like, you know, Peter is RGB and whatever.

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Paul, are you familiar with the CIA handbook on how to sabotage organizations?

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Yeah, that came to mind about the just constantly referring things to committees.

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And how like nothing gets done in Bitcoin anymore.

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And we don't really have a process, which is another way of saying we have a
process.

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But it's extremely defective.

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And you don't know to whom, you don't know who to address your grievance to.

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Like who are you complaining to?

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So it's just Kafkaesque.

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I think that that is, it's definitely like we seem to be following the CIA playbook.

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Even, I don't know if anyone is trying to make that happen on purpose.

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But maybe you pay enough money to Peter Todd and it'll make it happen.

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I mean, I suppose.

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I just don't.

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I mean, it's definitely possible.

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I don't think so.

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But I just think he's actually, I mean, it's very easy to explain.

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It's just sort of selfishness and ego.

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Because, of course, he, think about what it would mean.

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Like he has been against this idea for so many years.

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He would have to really admit that he was wrong in a big way.

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And his point of view is very clear.

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Back in 2014, he had a point of view that it was very close to the truth, but was
wrong.

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The true part is that Bitcoin Core should care about the cost of running an L1 full
node.

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This is the con up factor.

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Is that correct?

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Exactly, yes.

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So we should care about that.

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What you should do is you should factor that out and not care about anything else.

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Everything else is a distraction.

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And especially you should not care about miners' costs.

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Because that is just the same thing.

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Like that's saying that we should get rid of proof-of-work in Bitcoin, basically.

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No, it sounds like he's getting rather communist about this thing.

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As if he's got this wand that taps over everybody's business.

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And he says, OK, this is how we're going to organize things.

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I don't fully understand.

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Because if I decide to sink as much of the process down into an ASIC for whatever it
might be.

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Or lay fiber-optic cables between my neighbors and whatnot.

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That's my expense.

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Do you see what I mean?

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That's what we want for our miners.

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Stuff like that.

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And he has this view that he's very interested in how much it costs to start up a
new mining operation.

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Why should he care?

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Is he paying for them?

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Is he paying for it?

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I think that if we could steel man it, we would say something like we all share the
same miners.

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But at the same time, it doesn't really make sense.

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Because proof of work is actually saying that we have a lot of conditional love for
the miners.

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We fire the bottom half of performers every two weeks.

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The bottom half of the designs are cut.

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So, yeah.

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Mining must operate at the most profitable configurations.

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So, if those are at different scales, then too bad for the scales that are not
profitable.

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I mean, he has a view that if you have costs, they must co-vary perfectly with the
number of hashes each person performs.

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It doesn't really make any sense, but we can try to figure it out anyway.

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I would actually quite like to do that.

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It seems like you both had differing opinions.

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It's a combination of laziness and concern trolling, I think.

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He thinks if you do a trillion hashes versus a thousand hashes, the costs have to
scale perfectly.

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And so, I'm not exactly sure what he thinks would happen if two people merged their
operation.

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Or if they were in a different room and then you removed a cardboard divider between
the rooms.

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But I guess what he's saying is it has to be equally.

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So, even down to if you're doing 12 hashes a day, that should be exactly one
millionth the economic profile of someone that's doing 12 million hashes a day.

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And I don't know.

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It doesn't make any sense.

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But, yeah.

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Okay.

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I mean, we have to try to understand.

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But even from another perspective, I can still run a Bitcoin miner node literally
without any sidechain software.

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None of it.

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Nothing.

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Nada.

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And where is the added cost coming from?

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Sorry.

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You noticed that I asked him those 10 questions at the beginning.

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By the way, I think you overloaded him.

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And like a rat, he chose the easiest one.

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He did, yeah.

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And then dodged everything.

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Yeah, I made a mistake by doing that.

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I should have certainly just used the 10 minutes to just, like, give propaganda
about, say, how great Drivechain is.

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And then at the end, ask him the first question.

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So that was probably my mistake.

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But, I mean, I would just think if someone, you know, I just think that's it.

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I gave him the 10 questions.

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He could have, like, I think a very, someone who's really, really confident that
their position is correct, they would have wanted to go through.

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Like, they would have made sure to.

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And we tried to stay on that one of this contradiction of whether or not you need,
whether or not it's some kind of requirement that every miner, in order to start,
must run a node, which is not true.

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So the node is another thing where it's kind of like if you have two miners in a
room and they each run their own node and then they're in the same room.

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So they look at each other and they say, well, we can only, we can only use one of
these.

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I mean, I guess he says that that just doesn't work or something.

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But the reason why that's important is because if two people can share one node,
then 50 people can share one.

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And then if I'm right about the sidechain nodes can live in their own universe, the
miners just need to open a connection between one for this Blind Merged Mining thing
to work.

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And then none of them, everyone can defer to the pools node.

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Obviously, but of course, he contradicts himself because he's also saying that the
pool gives an advantage to a big pool who defrays the cost.

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So we'll never get an answer out of him because his argument requires it to be both
ways.

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It requires it to be the case that you can divide the cost of running a node among
multiple people, which is the correct way.

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And it also requires that he has a whole section where it's do miners need to run a
node?

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Yes. And it's like it goes on and on and on about that, even though that's not
correct.

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So they contradict each other. So I just think I don't know if I don't.

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The reason why that's so important to him is because he understands that I have
correctly.

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Moved all the costs, the like the large block costs, the full node costs.

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I have moved them off of L1 and he knows that. So he needs he needs to find them
somewhere.

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He's going to have to rummage around and say, oh, here they are.

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They're the mining costs. And then he also knows that miners pay all kinds of costs,
especially for electricity and for ASICs and for everything else.

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So he knows he's got to find something different about these costs.

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So, sure, you have labor, you have whatever physical security to stop people from
stealing the ASIC chips, you know.

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ASICs, electricity, whatever labor. To set up some of these things like to set up
like the ERCOT demand management credits, you need like, you know, I don't know.

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I'm not exactly sure, but you need some kind of administrative legal apparatus.

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So miners have all these costs, cooling. And he's got to find something different
about costs that are in the form of software.

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And what he's hit on, he has kind of flipped the good thing about them, which is
that everyone can share the same node that's run by someone who's not even a miner
or someone who is the mining pool or, you know, two miners in the same room can use
the same.

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So he's taken that, which is actually a very useful and helpful thing.

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And he's trying to flip it around and say it's a bad thing, which it's not.

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But I mean, this is he's it's not I don't think it's a very honest argument.

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He's just trying to find he's trying to find somewhere where this full node cost is
paid by.

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And, you know, he admits that it is not he tacitly admits.

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That it does not affect any actual Bitcoin user, anyone who's running a Bitcoin full
node even.

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So. So, I mean, in a way, he admits that I'm right, but he's got this circuitous
path through Minertown.

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I noticed he also has another argument, which which was rather disingenuous.

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And I also think groping like like groping in the dark for for some sort of legal
ramifications.

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And it goes like this. Oh, if you run the a miner without the sidechain software.

150
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Aha. So it seems like he already understands that. Right.

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If there is another bad actor. Yeah, I know he understands that.

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Right. This guy's jumping around. He's he's anyway.

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He he understands that. But then his argument is that.

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But if there is somebody else and they happen to to to retarget the hash or change
the hash, then you are complicit.

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You are participating in the theft of of this of this of this Bitcoin.

156
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So therefore, the miner will go to prison.

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Like this, the arrogance of this fellow to to sort of like look at these systems and
generalize them, these complicated systems and generalize them to to to to.

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It's it's it's the height of Justin Trudeau communist arrogance.

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I mean, it's like if we all know that, like if it's the case that the court order is
providing consensus.

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Then the whole proof of work thing just doesn't exist anyway.

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And in the same paragraph where he complains about that, he has to, of course, he's
got to make it about himself.

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So he complains about Craig S. Wright suing him.

163
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But that just proves that lawsuits are, you know, not necessarily connected with
reality or something that we should respect.

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So I don't understand. He almost every sentence in the thing piece of writing he
produced is wrong.

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And many of them contradict themselves, like with the sentence right next to it or a
paragraph that is just a little bit later.

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So so I think that, you know, he's just thinking like.

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It's it's like a performance and he will look good among some people who are already
they're already worried about, I think, what Drivechain will do, because what
Drivechain will do is it will fix all the problems in Bitcoin.

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We won't need the toxic toxic cultural enforcers.

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We won't need to worry about scale.

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So we won't need all these weird engineers doing these like overcomplicated things
that that are doomed.

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So, like, you know, lightning has turned into basically like a make work scheme
where it's just a never ending.

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It's like you hire contractors to work on your house and they just work forever.

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You know, they don't just get the job done in one day.

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They you know, it just takes two weeks and it just goes on and on and on and on.

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And that is what lightning has become, where it's great if you want a salary as a
technical person.

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But the the the ethical thing in Bitcoin is to make yourself unnecessary as
unnecessary as possible to purge all human interaction from the software because you
can't have this thing where you need support.

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But then now we have these LSPs. So anyway, Drivechain will do that.

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Drivechain will also like a lot of these people that I just disagreed with in the
past because they are they're weak and they're not, you know, they're not strong and
they're not good for Bitcoin.

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So I just make fun of them on Twitter.

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They don't want drive to the drive.

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She won't give me a lot of credit.

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So I think that that is just what it is.

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And he I mean, I don't know, like I, I struggle to to like drill a hole into his
mind and figure out like what is really there.

184
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And does he really care about minor fixed costs?

185
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,000
And does he even know what those words mean?

186
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Because that's I don't think so necessarily, because I think in economics, those are
tied to a single decision making context.

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As I write in a reply to him, my written reply is that you don't like if you hire an
electrician to come out for the day and they're hired for eight hours.

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Then there are fixed costs, and if they finish their work early now that you can
reuse them for free, you can say, well, can you do this other thing also and then
just leave early now they have to have economies of scale and there are fixed costs.

189
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:51,000
But if you zoom out over the year and you say, well, for every single day, we need
the electrician.

190
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We have to pay this.

191
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Then they're a variable cost.

192
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So and also the is for being a fixed cost versus economy of scale.

193
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It depends on the scale.

194
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So like if you build a hydroelectric dam, that's a huge upfront fixed cost.

195
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:15,000
Of course, if you zoom out and you take the point of view of the emperor of the
continent who will rule for 200 years, then even the hydroelectric dam is a variable
cost because you say, how many hydroelectric dams do I need?

196
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How much power do I need?

197
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How much is it going to cost per thing?

198
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And if you have if you zoom out, then everything is a variable cost.

199
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This is well known.

200
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But even it depends on the scale.

201
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So you have enormous the marginal demand of the electricity demand of the town could
be it could need like 70 percent of the dams, the water that can flow through the
generators of the dam.

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And then the other 30 percent just flows over the waterfall kind of as normal.

203
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In that scenario, the town has, you know, the they can easily scale up.

204
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They have scale economies.

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They have they have already paid the fixed cost of the dam and then now have a very,
very low marginal cost for the next unit of electricity until they're putting 100
percent of the water through the dam.

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And then they don't then they then it all flips around again.

207
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And now it's impossible for them to get more electricity out of the dam no matter
what they do as far as dam and dam related costs.

208
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And so it's it depends on the scale.

209
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So every everything will eventually hit some kind of diminishing returns to scale.

210
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Well, you cannot have eventually have so many full nodes that, you know, the planet
becomes a black hole and collapses or something or runs out of usable energy and be
available like computing resources of the planet.

211
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So, I mean, that's that's irrelevant.

212
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But I'm just trying to say is that it's pretty to pray.

213
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It's the predator prey cycle.

214
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:57,000
What you just mentioned that things don't just have economies of scale like like in
the piece of writing I used and I replied to him.

215
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I said, this is like saying that the chemistries of lithium have both heat and
pressure.

216
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You know what I mean?

217
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Like lithium doesn't like have heat.

218
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,000
Like that's not that's not what that word means.

219
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:17,000
You know, like so things economies of scale are when you're trying to decide, does
the town build a hydroelectric dam or do they build a bunch of wind turbines?

220
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Do they build a coal plant or do it?

221
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You're trying to say, OK, we we forecast this amount and some of this will have to
pay no matter how much you know what I mean?

222
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When you no matter how much electricity you get out of the dam, you must pay the
upfront cost.

223
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So you see, this is just this is human nature.

224
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This is 101 stuff that you would do to figure out, like, OK, how do I get the
cheapest amount for the what I expected the actual demand will be.

225
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And demand is something else that will always have diminishing returns.

226
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And anybody who's run the most basic of businesses understand these very basic
concepts.

227
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OK, so he doesn't understand them.

228
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:57,000
So this means.

229
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Yeah, I don't think that he does.

230
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He uses them in a very weird way.

231
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He'll just say like he said, the economies of Bitcoin mining have economies of scale
or something.

232
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It's just like saying, you know, like the the economies of whatever copper wire
manufacturer have.

233
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I mean, it kind of depends.

234
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Like it's not there's not supposed to be used that way.

235
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It's supposed to be like we have two or three choices.

236
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This is the expected scale.

237
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:33,000
I mean, you need the expected scale in there because nothing on a desert island like
manufacturing cars certainly doesn't have economies of scale because there's no
roads and there's no people and there's only you.

238
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So it's like it depends completely on the context.

239
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So I don't know. But but but that's the best that that's the best that the anti
Drivechain people have got.

240
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So you have to weirdly, weirdly engage with this, this very I don't know, this very
like juvenile application of terminology.

241
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Yeah. And also the other one is, oh, miners can steal.

242
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And this is also a very, very idiotic way of looking at things.

243
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So I've taken a stance of of of anybody who's running business and owns a business
and invests in businesses will understand what I'm trying to say.

244
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If you're like Peter Todd and you you basically sit in your your your your bedroom
and just go to conferences and whatnot, you probably have no idea how this works.

245
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But the way I see it is this. As soon as you get Drivechains into Bitcoin, what
happens is miners, they might have started out as entrepreneurs setting up a
business, the equivalent of setting up a business.

246
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:43,000
But it's almost like when Drivechains comes along, it becomes like a rather large
company where where you actually need a board.

247
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Do you see what I mean? A board of that actually are adult supervision over this
corporation, which is Bitcoin and the community.

248
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Now, what happens now is that these these these board members, they're going to
select execution, the C-class people, you know, the CEO, the CTO, the CMO.

249
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And those guys are going to be paid pretty well.

250
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Basically, they're just going to manage the workers. Right. And their job is to turn
a profit, turn a dime, hopefully do useful things to society so that they can
aggregate wealth and solve problems.

251
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So then the board members will select who's a good set of X executors. Right.

252
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The sidechains are such things.

253
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So it's kind of like they each have their own difficulty, I mean, in a way, because
it's like the sidechains have to compete also against each other.

254
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But it's right. But yeah, this is exactly right where the miners gain the ability
to.

255
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Like they they they can bring the sidechain forth and dismiss it at will.

256
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And even if like some sidechain is like interfering with other sidechains, they
can just they can take a zoomed out view.

257
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Right. What will actually maximize our fees and the market price of the coin?

258
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And they they delete anything that shouldn't be there.

259
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:17,000
And they call forth anything. Miners could even like sponsor a hackathon or hire
someone to create.

260
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They could create the power to create and destroy.

261
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OK, I have a question for you now.

262
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So assume for a second you are a serious miner.

263
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You've invested multiple, multiple millions of dollars in setting up your your
thing.

264
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You have a series of other miners.

265
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And you guys have been whittled away of over a decade of, you know, refining your
business, optimizing it to get to this point.

266
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And, you know, when then there's a when there's a when there's a halvening.

267
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Everybody like the bad performers get removed.

268
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Now you have sidechains and Paul Peter Todd comes along and he says, I want to
create a sidechain.

269
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And he manages the sidechain the way that basically Bitcoin is currently being
managed.

270
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I ask you, how long is he going to last in this board?

271
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Well, of course, remember, we shouldn't be. It should be up to this.

272
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The good what I think the good thing about sidechains is it's it's about the
relationship between the software developers and maintainers and the software
itself.

273
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Since the developers may leave as Satoshi did.

274
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:33,000
Right. So it's a relationship between the design, which is basically the the
business, as you put it.

275
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It's like a dry cleaning place or a food place or something.

276
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And it's a relationship between them and their customers.

277
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:48,000
So if the fees are there, then and if they think that this overall thing is like
helping the exchange rate by having this option, you know, it's like these are rides
at Disneyland.

278
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,000
We're doing too many metaphors. I mean, I'm doing too many metaphors.

279
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It's like, you know, if they think it adds something, because, you know what I mean?

280
00:23:54,000 --> 00:24:05,000
You can't not everyone wants to do like, you know, if you go to have a big mix,
always because it comes to mind, because if you go to like a theme park, not
everyone wants like the really crazy fall ride.

281
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That's like really, really thrilling. They also have like some of the simple rides
and have like simple games for like people, you know, it's like so they have they
have like a mix.

282
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:23,000
So you'd have a cash sidechain. You'd say maybe it doesn't generate that much in
fees, but it allows everyone to obtain privacy if they need it.

283
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So you see what I mean? They would be maybe motivated to keep that one around
because it helps the whole portfolio.

284
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But we wouldn't necessarily need to inject our own opinion.

285
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We could just see, hey, is it is it getting the and I think that's that's where the
whole thing would improve, because right now we do have this communist USSR style.

286
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:48,000
Like, what do we want in Bitcoin? How should we support the code?

287
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,000
Our.

288
00:24:50,594 --> 00:25:16,594
Yeah, we had roadmaps at one point we had. So so I think that actually we have gone
in the wrong direction with that. And so the good the good news is he see this is a
great I want to there's many great things about this, but one is in that scenario,
the miners can just kind of completely ignore this whole thing until there's actual
like code and then they can like run it in like the traditional way.

289
00:25:16,594 --> 00:25:36,594
They can actually run it in like the test environment. So someone says, oh, I'm
working on the sidechain. I mean, you always if you're a miner, you always say,
great, you know, you don't keep me updated, you know, because I don't care until the
software is done. You can't do anything anyway. So so you just say, great. You just
hope that they work on it.

290
00:25:36,594 --> 00:26:05,594
Then when it's when it's ready, you can kind of test it out yourself. And you can
see like, is this any good? Is this vaporware? Or is this real? Can I actually see
people using this? You have a very clear criterion, which is generate the
transaction fees. And, you know, it's a great criterion, because you can generate
fee revenues. You know, one of two ways, you can either have a lot of happy
customers that you take a tiny bit from, which that's great. Or you can somehow you
could have this new software you've written.

291
00:26:05,594 --> 00:26:32,594
Be so amazing that you can charge higher per fee per transaction. I don't know
exactly how that would work in the world of open source, but it's theoretically
possible with network effects or something. So so if whatever that is, you have, as
you say, it's like the board has outsourced part of the job of boosting their own
revenue and growing Bitcoin.

292
00:26:32,594 --> 00:26:55,594
See, whenever you get more transactions, it's a it's a two for a two for one, you
get more actual users, you get all this and all the all the goodness that that
entails, which is a real feedback to the software people, real feedback in the
world. But you also necessarily you get more adoption, because you have, it's not
only a use, but it's more attention to the coin, you know what I mean?

293
00:26:56,594 --> 00:27:21,594
Like, everyone's trying really hard in the crypto world to like, get on different
podcasts. It's whole, we've created this weird media landscape where it's like, you
want to do marketing, you want to shill, you want to like, you know, you just want
to get your name out there, like EOS just did the Times Square ad in 2017. And it
was just EOS didn't say anything about what it was, it was just the name, you know,
and it's like, that's.

294
00:27:22,594 --> 00:27:35,594
But if you've got actual users, and spreading by word of mouth, I mean, that's far
superior. So you get you get more actual, you get more transaction fee revenue, but
you clearly you also be increasing the price as you grow the community.

295
00:27:35,594 --> 00:28:00,594
Yes. Talking about getting your word, getting your name out. I thought of a bit of a
conference thing. Assume for a second that Bitcoin has adopted BIP300. Now, once a
year, you have a conference, but it's almost like a commodity. It's like a fight,
basically, you know, currently, we only have we can only have 256 sidechains, right?

296
00:28:00,594 --> 00:28:18,594
Now, assume that we already had saturation, right? And the miners are looking at
this, and they're saying, yes, our portfolio is coming along quite nicely. But we
have space enough for maybe 10, maybe 10 of those portfolio people are a little bit,
you know, on the dodgy side, let's have a commodity.

297
00:28:18,594 --> 00:28:45,594
And then what happens is, you get a whole bunch of young bright, bright sparks with
with great proposals, they sort of get up on stage. And some of them might be in a
financial position to be able to fund the development of this, some might not. But
then, you know, they do their presentation, they do their pitch. And it might be
like, you know, Britain's Got Talent type thing, whereby, you know, you get all your
miners that yay or nay it on the spot, right?

298
00:28:45,594 --> 00:29:10,594
And then some might say, Look, I need funding, I need a couple million to develop
this. And of course, the miners are looking at this and thinking, I'm interested in
funding this sort of thing, because it's going to drive, we believe it's got
potential. And then on the other side, to make space for those 10 people that got
selected, well, you're going to have to vote off the people that that, that, you
know, are are the Peter Todd sidechains, basically. Yeah.

299
00:29:10,594 --> 00:29:39,594
Yes, I think competition is always the way to go. And, but an unfortunate thing is,
I think that the miners, both when miners support or are against something,
including my own project, it's pretty clear to me that they don't have the most
amazing understanding of it. I mean, they live in their own world where they're very
specialized in finding like cheap power, and etc. So they, they don't, I think they
should take,

300
00:29:40,594 --> 00:29:57,594
I really think that they should make the decision to take more responsibility for
what happens, because actually, they are the ones who will, in the long run, suffer
the most if they screw this up, which I think meant a lot is being left on the
table, like a huge amount.

301
00:29:57,594 --> 00:30:23,594
So I think they don't really at this point, because ever since it was probably like
SegWit2x, they have been like very hands off. But even before, something I often
recommend is the scaling to minor panel that had like 95% of the hash rate on stage.
But they clearly just don't know what to do. And this leaves them vulnerable to, you
know, just people coming up to them and telling them, you should do this, or you
shouldn't do this.

302
00:30:23,594 --> 00:30:52,594
So just without editorializing too much, you know, just what happened was the miners
had no idea what to do during the block size dispute. And so they did nothing for a
while. And then the large blockers persuaded them to do, persuaded enough of them to
block SegWit, and then persuaded enough of them to hold it hostage for SegWit2x.

303
00:30:53,594 --> 00:31:16,594
And then persuaded them, and then somehow they changed their mind to to not do that.
But it was because SegWit2x was a losing idea. But the point is, they are kind of
like easily just batted around by, they don't, they don't seem to have like a very
deep understanding where it's like they know every inch of the issues, and they say
they have, they know exactly why they're doing things.

304
00:31:17,594 --> 00:31:42,594
So I think that they, they're not very technical people, as we in the Bitcoin
technical community would use that term. But even though they're, they're, of
course, extremely technical in their own way, they have their own, and it's clear
one, you know, things like Ocean, and Luke Dashjr.'s new pool, I think they show
very clearly that, that how specialized mining has become and to the point where
other Bitcoiners don't even understand.

305
00:31:42,594 --> 00:31:58,594
I mean, I didn't really even know that there was, I didn't even know that there were
firmware discounts. And I mean, I guess it was kind of obvious at one point that
because of the way AntPool and Bitmain were organized, that there was like, vertical
integration, and there's always been vertical integration.

306
00:31:58,594 --> 00:32:24,594
But, like, Luke is a super expert, and he ran a pool that found thousands of blocks
for years. But now he started his new pool. And with the exception of two blocks
that he found, like on December 1st and 3rd, which I think were either just with
rented hash power or, you know what I mean, something like help kick it off with
some momentum.

307
00:32:25,594 --> 00:32:52,594
With the exception of that, they have not found a single pool, and their pool design
does not achieve any of the objectives that they say that it does. And other miners
have correctly realized that it does not. So this is a scenario where people can
have enormous prestige and expertise and fail completely to participate even, even
participate, even join the network of miners.

308
00:32:52,594 --> 00:33:21,594
Yeah, there's another direction that that's rather worrying to me. Anybody who
hasn't got their head shoved up their asses knows that lightning's falling apart.
There's too many moving pieces. It's it's a convoluted mess that was designed and
created in Silly Valley. A bunch of VCs put stack loads of money behind that this is
supposed to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. And guess what, it doesn't
work very well. It's pathetic.

309
00:33:23,594 --> 00:33:35,594
Well, yes, I mean, we don't want it to like, we don't want to impugn the people with
the bad motives, unfortunately, I think are the marketing people who they they just
picked up on this meme of okay.

310
00:33:35,594 --> 00:33:56,594
There's like a bunch of people who they don't even use lightning themselves, but
they like Bitcoin, and they want Bitcoin, they want to pump the Bitcoin bag, which
we kind of we all want to some extent. But what they have concluded is Bitcoin is
good lightning helps Bitcoin. So we don't want anyone to make fun of lightning or
criticize lightning.

311
00:33:57,594 --> 00:34:20,594
I mean, but I had the Anthony Riard on our Twitter space two weeks ago, I think. And
he, you know, he is a leading expert, you know, and he has decided to just quit. He
says it's not there's no future for a tech person to do that after investing all the
time, you know, and learning the code and the design is he's decided that he's just
going to look for something else to do because it's so hopeless.

312
00:34:21,594 --> 00:34:42,594
And even we asked, I thought, asked him some, some pretty normal questions, tame
questions. And I was very surprised. I mean, he would even he went as far as to say,
he said very casually, he was just very friendly, very kind of jovial, even, but he
was saying like, you know, you know, there's a lot of the VCs don't want anyone to
invalidate their investment thesis.

313
00:34:42,594 --> 00:35:11,594
So he's like explaining, like, why is it that why is it that there's such a
difference between, like, the opinion of the technical people who work on lightning
every day? I mean, this is like, kind of like, this is going to become like a
Theranos style, like Enron situation where there's like people working on the blood
machine every day, or know that it doesn't work. And then in yet, then there's like,
you know, great woman CEO, revenge story that everyone is a feel good story.

314
00:35:12,594 --> 00:35:35,594
We all love a feel good story, right? She quit Stanford, and no one believed in her.
And now she's rags to riches. Whatever, you know, so and, you know, that's the but
that's the issue is. So this is the issue is the cultural thing is it's not any
problem with any code or anything. It is because you can just change the code. If
once once everyone knows what to do.

315
00:35:35,594 --> 00:36:04,594
You can easily you could just change, you could activate the 300. You could do some
other thing, you know, you can do plenty of things. The problem is the culture has
actually become, you know, complacent and overconfident. But also, it's just diluted
in other ways like that are these parasites have installed themselves, which include
the lightning VCs. And but it's also just includes like, whatever, like anyone
selling a book or even a conference.

316
00:36:05,594 --> 00:36:25,594
Not these people are not necessarily symbiotic relationship with Bitcoin. And
especially when you see people who are like the cultural enforcers who are saying
like no true Bitcoin or this are people who are just being rude and obnoxious and
not not growing the church, getting more people in. If you're not doing that, then
you aren't.

317
00:36:26,594 --> 00:36:29,594
You are a parasite. Yeah, that's how it is.

318
00:36:30,594 --> 00:36:38,594
Well, a friend of mine went to one of these lightning conferences, and he was like,
it's one of the most stale, boring places he's ever been to.

319
00:36:39,594 --> 00:37:01,594
You know, it is. I don't understand how, like, more people don't see it. I mean, I
went to Tab. I think Tab Conf is the best technical conference. But for the last two
years, like, you know, it's more than half of the content is lightning. But it's
like when it's lightning, everyone's just sitting there and the things like at the
computer, the person gives up and they always give a talk like this. They always
say.

320
00:37:02,594 --> 00:37:13,594
Here's an incredibly difficult problem. It's very arcane that I've discovered with
lightning, but we can solve it with this or this or this. And then it goes to their
solution and it's very complicated.

321
00:37:14,594 --> 00:37:29,594
And but they have some kind of solution to this weird edge case. You've never even
heard of this yet. Another lightning problem, as if the inability to onboard people
to it wasn't enough, like just right out of the gate or as if the fact that it
doesn't work when the fee rates are unstable.

322
00:37:30,594 --> 00:37:42,594
Like you just think like, OK, these these two things alone would just kill the idea.
But they have like this thing. They've discovered their own weird channel jamming
thing. And they OK, we can do it with this. We'll add these fees.

323
00:37:43,594 --> 00:37:57,594
And then the end and then everyone claps and they sit down and then it kind of
repeats. And it's it reminded me a lot of academia where it's like the goal is to
find like a weird problem, impress everyone with how you were able to solve it
somehow.

324
00:37:58,594 --> 00:38:13,594
And then it's kind of quite listed down and it doesn't matter that none of this is
in the real world. You would just pull the plug on this idea because the likelihood
that it will translate to satisfying the needs of the end user is very low.

325
00:38:14,594 --> 00:38:25,594
Although there may be there's probably some niche, you know, where like the ability
to sign and rapidly iterate will have some niche, but certainly not scaling Messiah.

326
00:38:26,594 --> 00:38:36,594
And it's but one thing that I want to stress is that at TabConf two conferences ago,
which I believe is September.

327
00:38:37,594 --> 00:38:49,594
There was a macro, a big talk that was like lightning is is is broken. That was the
title. And then the content was, you know, matched the title. It was very
persuasive.

328
00:38:50,594 --> 00:39:11,594
And this is on the main stage and everyone claps and then everyone just goes about
what they're doing. And then someone who's very senior in the community, like a
couple of months later, I was talking with this person and they were like, you know,
everyone just, you know, the lightning is broken, but we all just we all just keep
doing it or something like that.

329
00:39:12,594 --> 00:39:36,594
And then the next TabConf is still there's like all this lightning content,
lightning, lightning, lightning, everything's lightning. Lightning our sponsors. And
someone said that, you know, we had more people slowly coming, speaking in person,
like not at the event, but like when we're having dinner and stuff, people would say
lightning is broken.

330
00:39:37,594 --> 00:39:52,594
And then, you know, Barack, who is to the last two TabConfs ago, he was breaking
lightning with his funny little hacks. And then he invented Arc. So he's talking
about Arc. This one in his Arc or whiteboard masterclass video.

331
00:39:53,594 --> 00:40:06,594
I mean, he practically starts it off like the first four sentences or something
like. I mean, he starts it off in the intro and then he's like, you know, so we all
know that lightning is broken and this this project is about trying to fix some of
the bigger problems in lightning and just like with the different.

332
00:40:07,594 --> 00:40:30,594
So. So there has been disillusionment, but many people on Twitter still haven't
caught up. And I think Peter, Peter Todd is an example of someone who I don't think
has actually caught up. He doesn't realize that the people are leaving the sinking
ship, which is weird because normally when people are kind of smooth operators like
that, they're very aware of where everyone else is.

333
00:40:31,594 --> 00:40:39,594
But so it's very bizarre that he but I think he's got a lot of writing on with RGB
and I don't know exactly what the status of everyone's.

334
00:40:40,594 --> 00:41:02,594
Like, I don't know what everyone's projects are, but I think that what the project
people are working on obviously biases them. Anyway, lightning. I think I think
it'll be interesting to track how it actually goes away culturally, like, will it
like slowly fade out? Will it be like coven where everyone just kind of prevent
pretends like we try to pretend like that never happened or something?

335
00:41:03,594 --> 00:41:27,594
Or will it be like, which is kind of my suspicion. I think the coven model is a
good, it's a good guess. But it's also possible there will be like something like
Theranos will go just be like some, there'll be like huge ruptures like the article
just saying that it's a fraud and then they're failing to reply to it and then like
they get like the whistleblower investigated and then it just like explodes.

336
00:41:28,594 --> 00:41:43,594
So I don't know. But, you know, the fact that it's not it's currently not incentive
compatible even on its own terms with respect to like the need for op expire now,
even HTLCs don't work.

337
00:41:44,594 --> 00:42:05,594
HTLCs don't work when the fees are high anyway. So if fees stay high, then they then
just no one will really be using the lightning network, they will just be passing
funds, you know, custodially, they will be like fronting someone the money without
any guarantee that they will get reimbursed, which is why it's all more than half of
it goes to LSPs.

338
00:42:05,594 --> 00:42:25,594
So the whole thing is going to collapse and eventually. And the only question is, I
guess if I think that probably a lot of LNVCs are just going to try to like dump
their shares and they want to keep the narrative going. And now this whole thing has
become a disastrous cultural problem for Bitcoin, unfortunately.

339
00:42:26,594 --> 00:42:49,594
Yeah, and also, um, one thing that's happening is that folks like Peter Todd with
with their heads in the ground, like ostriches, you know, even though they don't do
that. But what's happening is, is, you know, I think in 2014, 15, he was one of the
bigger naysayers of sidechains. And that's caused irreparable damage to, to

340
00:42:49,594 --> 00:43:18,594
has, like, it's impossible to overstate, I think. I mean, like, it would be like,
we've had scalability, privacy, we would have had there probably the exchanges would
not have even had as much influence, because Oh, sure. There'd be a situation where
we would already have, we were sprinted directly to a situation where you could like
buy Bitcoin at like a CVS or something, or like a little card, like there would have
been like bit instant, like redo or something. And

341
00:43:19,594 --> 00:43:48,594
I argue, I argue, we might, we might be in a situation where we actually making
transactions with each other in Bitcoin had had there been something like the 300.
You see, what I'm trying to say is that Bitcoin is impossible to scale to everyone
in the world. And lightning is also demonstrated that this was supposed to be the
panacea, the, the, the solution to it all the final, you know, the great solution.
But that's not happening. And instead, what is happening is that people are making
transactions with each other.

342
00:43:49,594 --> 00:44:15,594
Over centralized custodian solutions like like with exchanges, and lightning is
going to evolve. The only way lightning can actually work is if it works with become
a massive custodial type scenario. And I believe there was one of these apps I
thought was I don't know was a Phoenix I think was a Phoenix that was that was that
was a centralized and everyone was like all fapping on about how great it was, but
it's all it's all centralized.

343
00:44:15,594 --> 00:44:18,594
Have we not learned our lesson from FDX?

344
00:44:45,594 --> 00:45:11,594
You would like buy one of the non custodial would buy like moon or something. And
you just vertically integrated because it's all custodial. Anyway, just say, okay,
this is great for this is a great deal for Coinbase and just spend whatever it is,
you know, $2 billion, who cares, and just acquire the brand and the the app. And
they're all you know, but that does remind me of a great tweet that I saw about

345
00:45:12,594 --> 00:45:26,594
I don't it was the tweet when something like this quote, I don't know who needs to
hear this, but scanning a custodial QR app is not an innovation or something. It's
like, so that's the

346
00:45:27,594 --> 00:45:45,594
But that's where we are, you know, we are, we will regress to Venmo. So really, the
lightning people have taken us into a place that is basically what the worst case
scenario of large blockers was, which is that people don't have, they can't run a
node, and they don't, they don't know the status of their own money without talking
to like an API.

347
00:45:45,594 --> 00:46:14,594
So we have already achieved this, the worst case scenario of, of large blockers and
via lightning. So that's, I don't know why. And more people are starting to realize
that because, you know, there's a lot of people out there who are, of course, it's
very easy to just be a bullshitter, right? So you get up there and you just you say
a bunch of vague stuff, you know, this week, we could name something. I mean, like,
you know, like a Michael Saylor, Max, Max, Max, Max, Max, Max.

348
00:46:15,594 --> 00:46:45,394
Kaiser, like they, they're not exactly, you know, Michael Saylor isn't exactly going
up there and saying, Okay, I'm in this file on this line of code should be a three
instead of a two, you know, it's not exactly like a pinpoint, laser guided missile
precision, he's just saying, you know, a Bitcoin is encrypted energy, you know, and
the crowd goes wild. So, you know, that's great. I mean, we need people like that.
One of the best things I ever heard in my entire life, the cleverest things, I
think, was a Milton Friedman

349
00:46:45,394 --> 00:47:15,394
saying that there's idea manufacturers, and then there's idea, you know,
distributors and wholesalers, and there's idea retailers. And that's a profound
truth, which is that the guy people who come up with ideas, they're often not the
best to like, you need like, there's like, there's like a Satoshi, and then there's
like an Andreas Antonopoulos, you know, so then then there's, you know, people like
people like you and me, you fall on the continuum somewhere. And even the people who
listen, like someone who listens to a podcast, but never goes on a podcast,

350
00:47:15,394 --> 00:47:43,394
that person is probably like a relatively like intellectual type of person, you
know, and they're gonna they have to tell it to their friends that like the bar or,
you know, the house party or something. So even maybe they are even the retailers,
you know, so but the point is, there's no reason to say that one person is sort of
better than the other. These are all different jobs that everyone has that must be
done in order for an idea to make it from not existing at all to being pervasively
adopted by everyone around the world.

351
00:47:43,394 --> 00:48:06,394
So, so yeah, like, you know, my, you know, Michael Saylor is he's sort of near the
retailer end, and he's pumping the these ideas and but you know, it's very easy to
be vague. And what we, you know, that's, that's good in some ways, but it's it has
the negative property that it's the Theranos problem.

352
00:48:07,394 --> 00:48:34,394
So lightning, this is the lightning Theranos metaphor where you a lot of people have
all these beliefs about lightning, lightning will fix everything we'll just do I'll
just do that we'll do the Zcash sidechain on top of lightning or people say stuff
like that when it's like, okay, you know, they don't, they don't really know what
the word lightning means, but they know that something will happen. And so that's
just something that everyone should be aware of, I suppose.

353
00:48:34,394 --> 00:48:43,394
Yeah, I want to ask you, right, maybe a more controversial thing.

354
00:48:43,394 --> 00:48:59,394
I think it's quite conclusive now that at the end of the debate on the very end, I
believe was where he was asking for his money. There's a Peter was asking for his
money, which I thought was quite telling, quite telling indeed. And another thing,

355
00:48:59,394 --> 00:49:27,394
I mean, hey, we hired him to do a job, he did the job bit kind of marginally. But,
you know, you know, I mean, like, okay, I get it, I get it. But But, you know, if
it's more about me showing to the world that like, listen, I really, you know, I
tried with this guy, I feel like I, you know, Oh, is that what it's about? Okay, I
think, I mean, like, I mean, I think I will at least get something, I'll get
something out of it. Like, so either I'll be able to show the world I tried with
this guy, or he'll identify something important.

356
00:49:27,394 --> 00:49:48,394
Or, like, I don't know, he will show the world that he there's like an opportunity
to, because he like, he's complained about this idea for years and years. And I,
he's got enough ever been specific. And honestly, he's still not specific, because
he did what he produced self contradicted itself in, in.

357
00:49:48,489 --> 00:50:15,489
Unbelievably important ways. There's no, the whole argument hinges on minors being
required to run sidechain nodes, even though that's not true at all. And he even
admits that it's not true in the other parts. And then he the whole argument also
hinges on minor centralization. And he has eight, eight different definitions and
measurements of it that all contradict each other completely. And most of which have
nothing to do with BIP300. So, so it's true that I still we still don't get
anything out of it. But I think we can now be

358
00:50:15,489 --> 00:50:28,489
confident, you know, that his opposition to the idea is just based on some kind of
like, you know, it's like he's, he's, he's, he's working on RGB, or he can be
disregarded that he was wrong or something like that.

359
00:50:28,489 --> 00:50:43,489
He can be disregarded from the equation. He's a he's a he's insubstantial. He should
be asked to leave the stage. Thank you very much. Stop wasting everybody's time and
and causing more damage. Now on to the more controversial question.

360
00:50:44,489 --> 00:51:11,489
Right. You know, when you're going to say, okay, when the steam engine, okay, what
did you think I was going to say, I thought you were going to ask, because at the
very end, I asked him, which is like the normal science question, I asked him, well,
you know, is there anything that would, you know, he's like, I don't like this idea.
And I was like, Is there anything that would make you like to change your mind? And
it was like, Well, no, I don't think so. And he didn't even say he didn't even
really own the know, he tried to like waffle for a little bit. And then he was like,

361
00:51:11,489 --> 00:51:38,489
Yes, yes. Actually, that's, that is what I wanted to say. Thank you very much for
catching. Oh, good. Yeah. Because that's, that's always telling to I mean, that
question is, that's a very important question, of course, because it would call
popper falsifiability science type. Yes. But it's a difficult in practice, when that
question is sprung on people, they usually are. It usually is difficult to answer on
the spot. But I get my guess is that Peter will never be able to answer it on the
spot or after hours of reflection, either.

362
00:51:38,489 --> 00:52:02,489
And I think it's telling that, for the large, large block or small block dispute, I
really know what both sides would have said, they would have said something like, I
mean, I think some of them are deluded and crazy people. And they were just in it
for fun. And they had no idea what was going on. But you could have gone back into
the scaling war and said, to the large blockers, like what, is there anything that
would make you not want the block size increase?

363
00:52:02,489 --> 00:52:21,489
And they would say, yes, because all we want is for everyone to be able to use
Bitcoin at a reasonable experience and a reasonable fee rate. So if something is
built that does that, that doesn't involve large block L1, we'll go for that. And
similarly, you could have flipped it and I would have known immediately like the
right answer on the small block size.

364
00:52:21,489 --> 00:52:49,489
Is there anything that would persuade you that you should that that we should have
large block size increase or an unlimited block size or whatever that would be? Will
it still be cheap to run the node? Or, you know, do we actually know what the final
block size is? You know, are we going to have to keep changing it? Because that was
another very reasonable thing to say. So we can't keep changing it. We have to
change it. We're going to change it once or we're going to just change it every two
years. And how's that going to look?

365
00:52:49,489 --> 00:53:09,489
So I would have been able to answer it kind of on the spot for both sides of the
block size debate in back in 2015, 2016, I think. So, you know, he couldn't he
didn't answer it. So, you know, you know what that means, though. It means that it's
driven by something other than the content of the idea just as he doesn't like it
for some other reason.

366
00:53:09,489 --> 00:53:26,489
Yeah, no, whatever that reason is made him he's now irrelevant. The man is
irrelevant. He's he's representing some sort of decaying, old, out of date, decrepit
thing.

367
00:53:26,489 --> 00:53:45,489
He should certainly try to answer the first two or three of the 10 questions if he
wants to rejoin the conversation.

368
00:53:46,489 --> 00:54:10,489
All stones have been left. All stones have been turned. And where to from here,
Paul? This is the question. Because when you have because when when when the when
it's the time for the steam engine to be created, once that invention is in it,
there's no stopping it. There is no stopping it. And right now we've got a scenario
whereby, you know, basically the competitors, the SWIFT network.

369
00:54:10,489 --> 00:54:24,489
This this board that I spoke about, whereby the miners need to man up and become
board members and oversee execution, you know, the C class, that what happens is the
whole network is is essentially taking on.

370
00:54:24,489 --> 00:54:50,489
And here's the key point. Central banks are recognizing the power of this
technology. They're starting to look at these exchanges and saying, well, we could
do what FTX did and Binance did.

371
00:54:51,489 --> 00:55:15,489
We just have to put the population of the earth into or the country onto this
particular website and we will manage the toing and froing of the currency. This
means that banks are cut out. This means that they, the central banks, become the
enemies of the banks, the retail banks.

372
00:55:15,489 --> 00:55:36,489
Now, how about this for a scenario? Excuse me. How about this for a scenario? Assume
for a second you have BIP300 merged into Bitcoin and you have a sidechain for each
of the banks.

373
00:55:37,489 --> 00:55:59,489
This way, now the banks are starting to use. OK, I say this because a large majority
of the people have no idea how to use Bitcoin. So this puts in a familiar interface
with the population of the country and the typical SWIFT type network.

374
00:56:00,489 --> 00:56:14,489
And instead what happens is these banks, who they're looking at their central banks
and they're realizing that now all of a sudden they're in the crosshairs, you see,
and they start to think, we can fight back. We can fight back if we all agree to.

375
00:56:14,489 --> 00:56:34,489
Oh, yeah, that would be neat. I think what I would like to stress is that, again,
the sidechain, I take no idea. I mean, I personally have all kinds of thoughts on
what I think is a good idea versus not. But the point of BIP300 is to say this is
not a good idea.

376
00:56:34,489 --> 00:56:51,489
Just to say that it shouldn't be up to me is that try anything on any spectrum of
decentralization. Have Luke Dashjr. sized tiny blocks. Have Roger Ver sized blocks.
Have unlimited sized blocks or have something that is –

377
00:56:51,489 --> 00:57:08,489
I get it. I get it. But your mind operates in a different way, you see. Normal human
beings need some sort of a narrative. Like the Bitcoin price is going to shoot up
next year sometime. Maybe it is. But the media are going to fabricate some sort of a
narrative. It might be completely and utterly inaccurate.

378
00:57:21,489 --> 00:57:47,489
But it doesn't stop because any bank or any individual can participate in that
network just like it's permissionless. So, but what happens there?

379
00:57:48,489 --> 00:58:03,489
Yes, of course. Well, I would just like to say that I have done some of the math. It
doesn't actually take that much. You only need like 10 or so sidechains that are
only 10 or a little bit bigger than the Bitcoin core that we already have.

380
00:58:04,489 --> 00:58:17,489
And, you know, you even have things like Solana. They're the actual total cost for
the running the software in terms of like the server, etc. RAM and everything.
There's only a few thousand dollars a year.

381
00:58:18,489 --> 00:58:36,489
So all the data that I've seen suggests that it actually it will be very, very cheap
even to run nodes that can actually have everything be an on blockchain transaction
for the entire world's transaction throughput.

382
00:58:37,489 --> 00:58:51,489
So I think that that so we won't really need but but for the user in terms of a we
will not hit the scale ceiling technologically. But in terms of as you're not
factoring in Metcalfe's law.

383
00:58:51,489 --> 00:58:54,489
Yeah, the. Well, what do you mean?

384
00:58:54,489 --> 00:59:01,489
Well, Metcalfe's law is a network becomes more and more useful, the more nodes that
get participate in it.

385
00:59:01,489 --> 00:59:18,489
So like the telephone network, or in the case of the Bitcoin network, assume for a
second that you get you on board a bank per sidechain, and then they bring all
their customers onto that sidechain.

386
00:59:18,489 --> 00:59:34,489
So it becomes more and more and more and more valuable. Because if, for example, I
wanted to use HSBC, I could I could take my money out of HSBC, sink it down into
them into BTC, and then move it into, you know, standard charted bank, for example.

387
00:59:34,489 --> 00:59:57,489
And then I can, and and, you know, and also as a result of this, each of the
countries are more likely to adopt this because they can control their own monetary
policy realities that we are in a world where where countries and we elect these
people because most of the people are stupid and they are unable to operate on these
different levels.

388
00:59:58,489 --> 01:00:01,489
So they can't, I don't know, anyway, I suppose.

389
01:00:01,489 --> 01:00:02,489
Yeah, maybe.

390
01:00:02,489 --> 01:00:04,489
But it's going to be monetary policy.

391
01:00:05,489 --> 01:00:20,489
What BIP300 does is it says it doesn't matter if something is a fiat project or an
altcoin project, you know, or Ethereum, whatever it is, you can turn it into a
Bitcoin project and have it use 21 million BTC and have it pay fees to the miners.

392
01:00:20,489 --> 01:00:31,489
So I think that we should have, we should have like a Solana type thing, like we
should have something like something where you you push the envelope on
decentralization down.

393
01:00:31,489 --> 01:00:34,489
So like you become more centralized, you go in the bad direction.

394
01:00:35,489 --> 01:00:53,489
But you see, like, how far can we get and still, you know, and still have the enough
of the good properties of decentralization that we like, and then we should have
things should go in all the different directions and including various levels of
integration with, you know, corporations or even the government or whatever, you
know.

395
01:00:54,489 --> 01:00:57,489
So like El Salvador, people, people love that.

396
01:00:57,489 --> 01:01:05,489
The Chivo wallet is centralized, you know, it is, you must, they must use their
equivalent of the social security number.

397
01:01:06,489 --> 01:01:07,489
It's tied to their identity.

398
01:01:08,489 --> 01:01:09,489
It is fully custodial.

399
01:01:09,489 --> 01:01:11,489
It is, you know, fully KYC.

400
01:01:11,489 --> 01:01:15,489
And so it's in many ways, it is a CBDC nightmare outcome.

401
01:01:16,489 --> 01:01:19,489
But it's got the, it's got the word Bitcoin slapped onto it.

402
01:01:19,489 --> 01:01:24,489
And I would just like to say about that, that even though that that's a very, it's a
very disappointing outcome so far.

403
01:01:24,489 --> 01:01:27,489
But I do think, you know, Rome wasn't built in a day.

404
01:01:27,489 --> 01:01:32,489
And that guy should be given enough rope to hang himself.

405
01:01:32,489 --> 01:01:39,489
If he, maybe he can make, I think it's possible that he will be, it's possible that
he will turn into another Latin American dictator and just steal all the money and
leave.

406
01:01:40,489 --> 01:01:45,489
And, but it's also possible that he will, he will make it work.

407
01:01:45,489 --> 01:01:48,489
And he has not had enough time to make it work.

408
01:01:48,489 --> 01:01:49,489
It's very hard.

409
01:01:49,489 --> 01:01:59,489
Those people are obviously very, they're not the most educated or technologically
sophisticated population that he, you know, you've got to play the cards you're
dealt.

410
01:01:59,489 --> 01:02:04,489
And he does seem to be, he seems, he has an unbelievably high approval rating.

411
01:02:04,489 --> 01:02:13,489
I mean, it's always, whenever you throw a lot of people in prison, you've got to
watch that approval rating though, because you never know if that's, are they doing
a great job of cleaning it up?

412
01:02:13,489 --> 01:02:17,489
Or are they just going to throw everyone in jail if they don't, if they don't vote
yes.

413
01:02:17,489 --> 01:02:19,489
But he's great.

414
01:02:19,489 --> 01:02:21,489
I think that, right, exactly.

415
01:02:21,489 --> 01:02:24,489
It's like, what's the approval rating in North Korea.

416
01:02:25,489 --> 01:02:33,489
If they don't clap hard enough when he walks in the room, well, you know, that's it.

417
01:02:33,489 --> 01:02:34,489
You're done.

418
01:02:34,489 --> 01:02:48,489
I know quite a few people who have, yeah, I know quite a few people who visited the
country and usually they come back with like kind of like a mixed review, which is
what you would expect, which is to say, sometimes I could use Bitcoin.

419
01:02:48,489 --> 01:02:49,489
It was great.

420
01:02:49,489 --> 01:02:58,489
And other times they had no idea what I was talking about, or they said that I could
use Bitcoin, but then they didn't, I didn't actually pay with cash half the time.

421
01:02:58,489 --> 01:03:14,489
So I think that, but I would definitely say this, even though it has been years, it
is not enough to do what he, what they want to do is that would take a while for
even the most, like even the most organized person, Napoleon.

422
01:03:14,489 --> 01:03:31,489
Maybe Napoleon could do it because apparently there's all these funny stories about
like when he was exiled to that one island, the first island, he like will
completely revolutionize the culture and legal system and economy and like open to
like mines and like open like harbors and stuff.

423
01:03:31,489 --> 01:03:34,489
So apparently some people are just good at that kind of thing.

424
01:03:34,489 --> 01:03:37,489
But, but that's a big project.

425
01:03:37,489 --> 01:03:39,489
So we'll see.

426
01:03:39,489 --> 01:03:41,489
I'll learn from that experiment, hopefully.

427
01:03:41,489 --> 01:03:45,489
Okay. All stones are left are overturned.

428
01:03:45,489 --> 01:03:46,489
They were all investigated.

429
01:03:46,489 --> 01:03:54,489
How to get this into BIP3, how to get BIP300 into Bitcoin or does one fork?

430
01:03:54,489 --> 01:03:57,489
Now, keep in mind that there is a perverted incentive.

431
01:03:57,489 --> 01:04:03,489
You can see a lot of the Bitcoiners, what they do, what they do is they, you know,
they don't really care about the community.

432
01:04:03,489 --> 01:04:08,489
I mean, even though, even though on one hand they're busy shilling that, yes,
Bitcoin to the moon.

433
01:04:08,489 --> 01:04:14,489
And the only way for Bitcoin to get to the moon is by the global, the whole world
adopting Bitcoin.

434
01:04:14,489 --> 01:04:17,489
But then on the other hand, don't fucking change anything about it.

435
01:04:17,489 --> 01:04:21,489
And if you do change it, fork Bitcoin, because we want to double our Bitcoin.

436
01:04:21,489 --> 01:04:25,489
We want to have. And then what happens is you divide the community.

437
01:04:25,489 --> 01:04:27,489
And then all of a sudden now you have.

438
01:04:28,489 --> 01:04:31,489
And in a networking, I don't want to get too technical that way.

439
01:04:31,489 --> 01:04:33,489
Yeah. It's called the end to end principle.

440
01:04:33,489 --> 01:04:36,489
And basically you don't want to have complexity in the middle.

441
01:04:36,489 --> 01:04:39,489
In other words, you don't want to have multiple different currencies.

442
01:04:39,489 --> 01:04:41,489
It would be good to have a single currency.

443
01:04:41,489 --> 01:04:48,489
My view is that one currency will ultimately win, even if even if cryptocurrency had
never been invented.

444
01:04:48,489 --> 01:04:53,489
But now that you have an Internet currency, it's just too difficult to have the
smallest currency.

445
01:04:53,489 --> 01:04:56,489
You know, you're in such a precarious spot.

446
01:04:56,489 --> 01:05:00,489
Yeah. And you really want to use the money that most other people are using.

447
01:05:00,489 --> 01:05:03,489
And just like you want to speak the language that most other people are speaking.

448
01:05:03,489 --> 01:05:06,489
It's just too much of a risk of of a malinvestment.

449
01:05:06,489 --> 01:05:13,489
You lose if you you put money into something, into a form of money that you lose.

450
01:05:13,489 --> 01:05:21,489
That's just a big risk. And people, you know, like when you go to Japan, we all use
yen.

451
01:05:21,489 --> 01:05:25,489
And when you go to Europe, we all use the euro.

452
01:05:25,489 --> 01:05:28,489
You could go. It would be an interesting experiment.

453
01:05:28,489 --> 01:05:33,489
If you could take like a briefcase full of yen, like a ton of yen to like.

454
01:05:33,489 --> 01:05:39,489
Something that's not like not a hotel or an airport, but just but that's.

455
01:05:39,489 --> 01:05:47,489
Like sophisticated enough, like you go in and like a nice restaurant or something in
in Rome, maybe.

456
01:05:47,489 --> 01:05:52,489
And say, will you take yen? This is like this is like eight thousand dollars worth
of yen.

457
01:05:52,489 --> 01:05:55,489
Can you take and you see like if they would do it or not?

458
01:05:55,489 --> 01:05:59,489
That would be a neat thing. This would be a neat experiment for someone to run.

459
01:05:59,489 --> 01:06:04,489
Like how how how is much is the cultural lock in?

460
01:06:04,489 --> 01:06:08,489
You know, like if you like I assume you've been to Japan.

461
01:06:08,489 --> 01:06:11,489
I've been to Japan. I'm actually going to. I'm going. Yeah.

462
01:06:11,489 --> 01:06:16,489
Excellent. Yeah. So so when I was in Japan, I was thinking like.

463
01:06:16,489 --> 01:06:24,489
Like even if I had hundreds of dollars, U.S., just like it's so culturally like it
is very, very.

464
01:06:24,489 --> 01:06:31,489
The culture is very nice. First of all, it's a great culture, but it's also and I
don't want to say insular, even though it is.

465
01:06:31,489 --> 01:06:36,489
Oh, it's very insular. No, it's very insular. But what I'm trying to say is like
they've got they're very happy where they are.

466
01:06:36,489 --> 01:06:40,489
You know, they like their thing and they should be very proud because they have a
great culture.

467
01:06:40,489 --> 01:06:43,489
But but it's like they're dialed in, you know.

468
01:06:43,489 --> 01:06:53,489
And I was thinking like even like, you know, the allies occupied this country and
like the U.S. was like ruling the country sort of.

469
01:06:53,489 --> 01:07:00,489
And to some extent, you know, there's like all this geopolitical history that we're
all familiar with.

470
01:07:00,489 --> 01:07:04,489
But still, I was thinking like I if I took out cash, I don't think I would be able
to like pay.

471
01:07:04,489 --> 01:07:08,489
Like they would just be like, what? What is it? But maybe I'm wrong about that.

472
01:07:08,489 --> 01:07:15,489
I don't know. But because even the U.S. dollar is kind of its own special position,
because the U.S. dollar is everything settles in the U.S. dollar.

473
01:07:15,489 --> 01:07:24,489
And by volume, much more than 80 percent of all forex trading has the U.S. dollar as
one of the two pairs.

474
01:07:24,489 --> 01:07:28,489
So the U.S. dollar is utterly dominant. But even then, I think like.

475
01:07:29,489 --> 01:07:34,489
Well, probably not, you know, you'd probably need a steep premium of like 200
percent, you know, on the official exchange.

476
01:07:34,489 --> 01:07:44,489
You have to take out your phone and say this is something and then maybe at a
certain point, 200 percent or two or three X or four X, the value, they would say,
OK, whatever.

477
01:07:44,489 --> 01:07:49,489
This person is clearly lost. I'm doing someone a favor. I'll take their this look.

478
01:07:49,489 --> 01:07:52,489
They'd have to like look up pictures like it would be. That's the question.

479
01:07:52,489 --> 01:08:03,489
This would be an interesting empirical question is all I'm saying is like how how
how much how much loyalty do people have to their their one, the currency that they
mostly use?

480
01:08:03,489 --> 01:08:10,489
I think it's a lot, but I would love to know. I'd love to see someone figure that
out somehow.

481
01:08:10,489 --> 01:08:13,489
Yeah, I mean, OK, so that's the problem with the fork, though.

482
01:08:13,489 --> 01:08:24,489
You see that you see it's all metaphor for your question, which which is basically,
I mean, if if if if if the stalwarts are not moving, they're not budging.

483
01:08:24,489 --> 01:08:29,489
And the people are are incapable of understanding this.

484
01:08:29,489 --> 01:08:34,489
And there's not enough and not enough of a groundswell for this to come about.

485
01:08:35,489 --> 01:08:37,489
Yes.

486
01:08:37,489 --> 01:08:48,489
Here's the other thing I wanted to go into this, the B cash fork was initiated by a
I don't know Roger very, very well.

487
01:08:48,489 --> 01:08:53,489
I've never met him. I know that he's he's recently got his black belt in jujitsu.

488
01:08:53,489 --> 01:08:55,489
And and I was very good at that.

489
01:08:55,489 --> 01:08:59,489
He's been making he was on YouTube when I first looked him up.

490
01:08:59,489 --> 01:09:03,489
He has all these like Brazilian jujitsu videos that were like before Bitcoin or
something.

491
01:09:03,489 --> 01:09:06,489
So he's oh, yeah, I wouldn't want to get into a fight with him.

492
01:09:06,489 --> 01:09:09,489
He can probably. No, I can't wait. I can't wait to roll with the guy.

493
01:09:09,489 --> 01:09:14,489
Because, I mean, I love doing jujitsu and I think he's going to be a great, great
opponent.

494
01:09:14,489 --> 01:09:19,489
I love it when there's a foreigner who walks into our gym, you know, like a sizable
strapping person.

495
01:09:19,489 --> 01:09:24,489
You're really good at it. Also, yeah, I mean, the chess of most martial arts.

496
01:09:24,489 --> 01:09:26,489
It's like exactly. Exactly.

497
01:09:26,489 --> 01:09:31,489
Well, also, it's it's it's it's like solving problems under pressure.

498
01:09:31,489 --> 01:09:37,489
So, you know, you don't put yourself in a compromising position and you don't like
you have to really tap quickly.

499
01:09:37,489 --> 01:09:39,489
Otherwise, you're going to get your arm broken or something.

500
01:09:39,489 --> 01:09:44,489
But the person has total control over whether or not they will, like, choke you out
or break your arm off.

501
01:09:44,489 --> 01:09:46,489
Exactly. Exactly.

502
01:09:47,489 --> 01:09:51,489
What can I say? It's fantastic. It's so much fun.

503
01:09:51,489 --> 01:09:55,489
But also also from another perspective, it's, you know, I think we we grew.

504
01:09:55,489 --> 01:09:58,489
We evolved on the plains of the Savannah Plains of Africa.

505
01:09:58,489 --> 01:10:03,489
And, you know, we've always been in scenarios where we'd like fight or flight type
situations.

506
01:10:03,489 --> 01:10:07,489
And in this modern world, you know, when are you going to get like a fight or flight
situation?

507
01:10:07,489 --> 01:10:10,489
So I get that on the mat. I get that all the time.

508
01:10:10,489 --> 01:10:13,489
You know, I know a lot of people love it. Yeah.

509
01:10:13,489 --> 01:10:19,489
Well, from another perspective, it's like, you know, going to the office is quite so
much stressful.

510
01:10:19,489 --> 01:10:21,489
No, fuck off. It's not stressful.

511
01:10:21,489 --> 01:10:25,489
What's stressful is being strangled and having your arm broken three times a week.

512
01:10:25,489 --> 01:10:30,489
You know, Sam Harris made like an essay or something because he also does.

513
01:10:30,489 --> 01:10:38,489
And I think it was called like the joy of drowning or something like that, like of
like being choked or like you like you die over and over again when you do
Brazilian.

514
01:10:38,489 --> 01:10:45,489
It was all about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and like you just you die and then you like
come back and you something I'm probably butchering it.

515
01:10:45,489 --> 01:10:47,489
But, you know, I think I think I know what you mean.

516
01:10:47,489 --> 01:10:57,489
But but like that's what thoughts are, thoughts and conversation and free speech is
so that we're able to communicate these problems and these issues before we come to
blows.

517
01:10:57,489 --> 01:11:00,489
Yeah, we don't we don't take up arms.

518
01:11:00,489 --> 01:11:07,489
Yes, we want to talk about it. And in Jiu Jitsu, it's basically it's like, you know,
you just wrote you doing a combat.

519
01:11:07,489 --> 01:11:10,489
But then you just tap and it's over.

520
01:11:10,489 --> 01:11:13,489
And you just you just redo it and you keep on doing it.

521
01:11:13,489 --> 01:11:16,489
It's fantastic. Anyway, you're talking about Roger.

522
01:11:16,489 --> 01:11:19,489
Yeah, Roger. OK, so Roger Ver, Roger Ver.

523
01:11:19,489 --> 01:11:29,489
And and yeah, I think that's I can see why he's got the power to sort of like drive
through because, you know, you need to be a stubborn bastard when you do like things
like Jiu Jitsu.

524
01:11:30,489 --> 01:11:40,489
I tell you. But maybe there wasn't the greatest of technical arguments behind the
cash, the value offering was not significantly higher than that of Bitcoin.

525
01:11:41,489 --> 01:11:43,489
But it's funny. Sorry.

526
01:11:43,489 --> 01:11:58,489
But in the case of, for example, a fork of Bitcoin whereby you've got BIP300 in it,
I honestly think that the value offering is significant, significant.

527
01:11:58,489 --> 01:12:03,489
There's a lot to say there. I mean, first of all, we have not actually left every
single stone unturned.

528
01:12:03,489 --> 01:12:09,489
So I still have to actually because we're still our test network is old and we have
to update it.

529
01:12:09,489 --> 01:12:15,489
And we need this is one of the problems with Bitcoin cash that it did not.

530
01:12:15,489 --> 01:12:17,489
It's very funny. There's so many directions I'd like to go from here.

531
01:12:18,489 --> 01:12:31,489
But it's like I'm often people often think of me as like a large blocker, Roger Ver
aligned, which is true that I I was hoping that everyone would get what they wanted
out of the scaling war, including Roger.

532
01:12:32,489 --> 01:12:40,489
Even though I was always a small blocker and I was against signed that thing against
SegWit to X and I wrote this blog post against the hard fork.

533
01:12:40,489 --> 01:12:46,489
And so the so it's just kind of interesting that I don't know.

534
01:12:46,489 --> 01:12:55,489
I'm perceived in kind of a everyone perceives me and kind of like a very gray,
suspicious way sometimes, which I think is exactly where I want to be.

535
01:12:55,489 --> 01:13:05,489
So perfect. But the what I was going to try to say is that I've been so I was so
critical of Bitcoin cash, I thought.

536
01:13:05,489 --> 01:13:09,489
I mean, I constantly was telling them to do things differently.

537
01:13:09,489 --> 01:13:17,489
And I had this table of mistakes that they had made that I published at the time,
like when it was happening and since also.

538
01:13:17,489 --> 01:13:22,489
And I go on their podcast and I tell them that they have they have no hope, really,
and they give up.

539
01:13:22,489 --> 01:13:28,489
And but still people think that I am, I don't know, a large blocker or something
like that.

540
01:13:28,489 --> 01:13:32,489
And, yes, they did make many mistakes and.

541
01:13:32,489 --> 01:13:40,489
Well, we could go into them because any fork that would be successful must avoid
those mistakes.

542
01:13:40,489 --> 01:13:53,489
The stones that still haven't been unturned is like we have to have the actual
software where I have to actually have an actual proposal of what Bitcoin miners
should run and users, of course.

543
01:13:53,489 --> 01:13:56,489
Which right now we don't because the test network is old.

544
01:13:57,489 --> 01:14:03,489
So actually, it's the last stone is my own kind of in part, I did it for a very
virtuous reason.

545
01:14:03,489 --> 01:14:08,489
I didn't actually I wanted the community to understand the idea and.

546
01:14:08,489 --> 01:14:16,489
Get excited about it first and then maybe help build it also, but I still have to do
this last step.

547
01:14:16,489 --> 01:14:26,489
This would be the last stone, which is that, you know, I have to give people
something to that their actual Bitcoiners, BTC people would run.

548
01:14:26,489 --> 01:14:31,489
Which I think I will actually be able to do very soon, you know, probably by the end
of January.

549
01:14:31,489 --> 01:14:34,489
I mean, I hope maybe I just totally jinxed myself there.

550
01:14:34,489 --> 01:14:39,489
I'm not sure. Maybe I shouldn't have said that, but the I mean, just that that will
be the final stone.

551
01:14:39,489 --> 01:14:43,489
So I'll let you know you'll be there. Is this a surprise thing?

552
01:14:43,489 --> 01:14:47,489
Is it a surprise for you? No, this is just going to be like the deliverable.

553
01:14:47,489 --> 01:14:56,489
I'm saying that that's exactly what I'm saying is I will be it will be software that
the miners can actually run to to activate BIP300, which.

554
01:14:57,584 --> 01:15:24,584
So currently doesn't exist in a reasonable form, it has to exist, it has to exist,
not only does it have to exist and be free of bugs and everything, but it also has
to be something that does not interfere or interact with whatever the people doing
in Bitcoin Core, you know, like the Bitcoin Core, it has to be, it has to either go
through the Bitcoin Core process, which now I think will take too long, or it has to
just interface with it, you know, to be able to run it and to be able to, you know,

555
01:15:24,584 --> 01:15:36,384
so so I'll release that. And we can talk about that also. But now we're now we've
have four or five different threads now, about what is not the most Bitcoin cash do
that we should avoid?

556
01:15:36,984 --> 01:15:45,864
What are the four different ones? Let's let's give them a high level names. We've
got the the the the sister software, the side software, or the software?

557
01:15:45,904 --> 01:15:47,784
Oh, you're talking about the deliverable? Yeah.

558
01:15:47,784 --> 01:15:51,784
Deliverable. Okay, the deliverable. We've got the the the the

559
01:15:51,784 --> 01:16:14,944
I think, yeah, one of the points of the mistake, you're trying to do something we
talked about this. Yeah. So this is what is actually going to happen is there will
be Bitcoin Core will be unmodified. And that will be piloted by like this kind of
like, you can call it whatever you like fork activator or like driver or like an
executive type of a thing.

560
01:16:14,944 --> 01:16:15,824
Rules engine.

561
01:16:16,424 --> 01:16:18,984
Apex rules engine. That's like that. That's good.

562
01:16:19,224 --> 01:16:19,704
Okay.

563
01:16:19,984 --> 01:16:36,264
The so this thing will be a very simple thing that only its job is to scan a block
this is on it'll be on the block this men pool side. So there's mining side and then
there's a block validation side block construction block validation.

564
01:16:36,264 --> 01:16:56,584
But what it will do is it will just it's job is to like load a little like a little
maybe we should explain the other thing for us because it's much easier to have
Bitcoin Core and they have this thing that will just check to see if any BIP300 301
rules are being violated.

565
01:16:56,624 --> 01:16:58,184
So this is the right?

566
01:16:58,384 --> 01:17:01,944
Yeah, this would be like the Drivechain auditor thing.

567
01:17:02,144 --> 01:17:04,744
Okay, let's give them names. Let's give these things names.

568
01:17:05,304 --> 01:17:07,784
Okay, I'm gonna Drivechain Drivechain auditor then.

569
01:17:07,824 --> 01:17:25,704
Okay, so but okay, now. So the Drivechain or now now we're going to give a
definition for the Drivechain auditor. Yes, this Drivechain. Okay, I say it and then
you correct me or not. Sure. The Drivechain auditor is a small piece of software.
It's an executable that operates that executes on a separate process from the mining
software.

570
01:17:26,704 --> 01:17:44,624
It is deliberately small and tight, and written in maybe even literal literal style
code. So you have the English and well documented and and and it's very, very clear
about what it does. Is that the Drivechain?

571
01:17:44,624 --> 01:17:48,544
This is the this the the top thing you're flip flip them.

572
01:17:48,664 --> 01:17:54,064
Okay. Okay, so so what are you giving names? This is the reason why we giving names.

573
01:17:54,104 --> 01:18:13,944
So I called it this 300 auditor because it's in tied intimately to this 300. So you
could have remember, you could have a 119 auditor, like a CTV auditor, that's, you
have multiple ones. So they would these would be like, these are things that it's
like Jeremy Rubin would just make the 119 thing.

574
01:18:13,944 --> 01:18:19,824
It's between him and that. And and then the small thing is the apex thing.

575
01:18:19,864 --> 01:18:37,264
Okay, so let's let's let's not not bring in Jeremy, all of these things. Let's just
keep it down to. So we've got the basic flow, we've got blocks, we come in, they
come in, we're going to check a set of rules to see whether a block accords with BIP300 rules or not.

576
01:18:37,264 --> 01:19:03,184
Now, we need to check to see what so these blocks are going to come in, they're
going to be filtered off into another process, I'm assuming, which is going to be
this rules engine. And then the output of this rules engine is to say yay or nay to
a block. If it passes, then it goes if it if yes, the if the block passes the BIP300 rules, then it will be merged.

577
01:19:03,184 --> 01:19:08,504
Well, you know, it will be merged on to the the blockchain, the rest of the
blockchain, correct?

578
01:19:09,664 --> 01:19:27,144
Yeah, you can think of it as a bunch of filters. So it's like the whole thing is
this one thing within your Bitcoin core would be like the first filter, and then
there'd be like the, the BIP300 auditor thing that's going to scan for the BIP300
rules. And then if you wanted to, you could install more filters, but we're going to
forget about those right now.

579
01:19:27,144 --> 01:19:29,144
Let's not, let's keep it simple.

580
01:19:29,144 --> 01:19:31,144
You could have 119, you could have other filters.

581
01:19:31,144 --> 01:19:33,144
No, no, no, keep it simple. Keep it simple. Okay, continue.

582
01:19:33,144 --> 01:19:35,144
Then the whole, the fact that it must be threaded through the wall.

583
01:19:35,144 --> 01:19:43,144
Okay, so the block will go through this, it checks the rules, and if it's a yay,
then it continues through to the next phase. What is the next phase?

584
01:19:43,144 --> 01:19:45,144
Well, first, it has to do all the Bitcoin core rules.

585
01:19:45,144 --> 01:19:47,144
Got it.

586
01:19:47,144 --> 01:20:07,144
The whole point of this is so that I no longer have to touch Bitcoin core. And if
they release a new version, I don't have to rebase or anything, I just plug it back
in, you know, the, if they update to Bitcoin core 27, you just put that one back in,
you know, you upgrade. So you just, you can upgrade that without touching either the
BIP300 part or the apparatus that holds the whole thing.

587
01:20:07,144 --> 01:20:09,144
Okay, got it.

588
01:20:09,144 --> 01:20:15,144
So the three are the apparatus that holds the whole thing, Bitcoin core that's not
modified, and then the BIP300 part.

589
01:20:15,144 --> 01:20:21,144
So this process is essentially a way of reintroducing the concept of soft forking
back into Bitcoin.

590
01:20:21,144 --> 01:20:23,144
Yeah.

591
01:20:23,144 --> 01:20:27,144
Dude, you are solving a really, really important problem.

592
01:20:27,144 --> 01:20:29,144
Yeah, I know.

593
01:20:29,144 --> 01:20:37,144
Screw BIP300. This in and of itself is absolutely a great innovation. You're
bringing value to the table. Thank you.

594
01:20:37,144 --> 01:20:49,144
Well, thanks. But you know, what I think is kind of ironic is I really thought that
the prediction markets idea was like a great idea. It was a huge risk, huge reward.
And then I had to move to Drivechain because I was like, this is way, way simpler.

595
01:20:49,144 --> 01:21:05,144
And this solves all Bitcoin's like governance, scalability, privacy problems. And
now, yeah, this will be the simplest thing ever. And it will solve kind of a not
quite as big, but the point is, my career has taken me into like the very, the most
simplest direction.

596
01:21:05,144 --> 01:21:33,144
But yeah, I think that this will be good. If people like this, you know, if miners
like this, then what it will do basically is allow the Bitcoin core to kind of go
their own way. And they don't need to even worry about software, which they have
demonstrated numerous times that they do not want to have anything to do with the
soft forks because they find soft fork activation to be like stressful and annoying.

597
01:21:33,144 --> 01:21:51,144
So this is the kind of way of just sort of like taking it out of their hands. And I
think it's a good idea. We'll have to see if they go for it, because while they are,
they're all in on Bitcoin and they want Bitcoin to succeed.

598
01:21:51,144 --> 01:22:14,144
Like I said, they are usually, I found them to be baffled often by even the simplest
technical commentary. And sometimes even people who support me, I get a little
nervous because I was like, do they really know like what they're supporting? Like,
I don't know. So we'll have to have this all laid out. But this is why the thing
that holds all the filters, that is the very small thing.

599
01:22:15,144 --> 01:22:31,144
Each individual filter can be of unlimited complexity and it can have terrible code
really, because you can pull them out and replace them. So that's why it's better
because now the miner only needs to understand why it is they have the filter box.
That thing should be like 200 lines of code.

600
01:22:31,144 --> 01:22:50,144
And then the, that's why you didn't want to talk about this, but I have to keep
bringing it up. That's why you can have 119, you could have another filter where
it's like some other thing, Jeremy Rubin's thing that now you see the benefit is
Jeremy doesn't have to make it through Bitcoin core process, which is hell.

601
01:22:50,144 --> 01:23:05,144
And no one has to change the filter apparatus. So it's just doing what it does. It's
only invalidating blocks. It's not like stealing anyone's money or anything. And
Jeremy doesn't have to interact with the 300 at all. He just has to make sure that
when he tests it, the right stuff goes to all the filters.

602
01:23:05,144 --> 01:23:29,144
So that is, so that is why it's, that's, that's kind of, you know, that's kind of
like the new thing I've come up with. So we'll do that. And then if that still
doesn't work, then I don't know, I guess we'll probably, I think that would just
show that the culture in Bitcoin is like literally suicidal and it's probably
trapped in like a complete death spiral, which is would really be something.

603
01:23:30,144 --> 01:23:47,144
But we already know how to fix that also, which is to just release, release a hard,
we'll just, it will be like a demo, but it will be a demo that has the looming
threat of taking over if, if Bitcoin is really determined not to like, like what is
the actual plan?

604
01:23:47,144 --> 01:23:59,144
Like all the lightning people have, have quit. Darknet markets are moving to Monero.
Bitcoin has done very well, but we need to, we can't, you know, we've gotten to
where we are.

605
01:24:00,144 --> 01:24:17,144
No, we're getting off track. No. Okay. So let's just focus a little bit on the, on
the, on this filtering thing. I, you see, like you're saying stuff and I'm getting
explosions in my brain, the good sort. Okay. Once we've gone through all the
filters, what is at the end?

606
01:24:18,144 --> 01:24:28,144
This is a block that is accepted by the network of miners. Okay. So, so basically
the miners must enforce the soft fork. I don't know if people disagree with that,
but I disagree with them.

607
01:24:29,144 --> 01:24:33,144
So the block that makes it through all the different filters gets appended to the
blockchain.

608
01:24:34,144 --> 01:24:47,144
Yeah. And the idea is if 51% is running the same configuration of filters, then no
other block will, you know, maybe you get one or two orphan blocks, which something
that happens naturally anyway.

609
01:24:47,144 --> 01:24:53,144
Yes. So you really, the only blockchain that anyone will see.

610
01:24:53,144 --> 01:24:54,144
Yes.

611
01:24:55,144 --> 01:24:57,144
Is a blockchain that enforces all of these rules.

612
01:24:58,144 --> 01:24:59,144
Yes.

613
01:24:59,144 --> 01:25:02,144
Now you don't need to run, you could run Bitcoin Core 26.

614
01:25:03,144 --> 01:25:04,144
Got it.

615
01:25:04,144 --> 01:25:14,144
Forever. Or you could run, you know, as people did, as you probably remember that
Merchant Pup SQ character, they would run the very old Bitcoin 5, 0.5.3 or
something.

616
01:25:15,144 --> 01:25:23,144
And they would just run that and they ignored the new versions. And they had some
pretty good reasons for doing that, even though they were crazy people, of course.

617
01:25:24,144 --> 01:25:34,144
But, you know, rightly, people said the more the code changes, the more, what do we
have to do? Are we obligated to continue to look into each change?

618
01:25:35,144 --> 01:25:46,144
You know, because when you upgrade the software, this is like a consensual, you
don't really know that it, there could be something in there where it's like a soft
fork for like five years and then it triggers something, you know, it could be
something hidden in the code.

619
01:25:47,144 --> 01:25:49,144
So we kind of want to discourage the code from changing.

620
01:25:50,144 --> 01:25:54,144
So actually this filters thing is better. It's kind of like layers, like layer one,
layer two, layer three.

621
01:25:55,144 --> 01:26:03,144
Got it. I'm already, I got that. I got that. Okay. Okay. I think, okay. So now
that's on, that's for the verification side. Now, okay, you, we're going to have a
side, which is also the block side, right?

622
01:26:04,144 --> 01:26:10,144
I suppose. Yeah, no. Even, even the miner would run exactly the same software. So
once you, once the miner discovers.

623
01:26:11,144 --> 01:26:17,144
The filters, because they must construct the mempool. They need the mempool to only
have valid transactions that will pass all the filters.

624
01:26:18,144 --> 01:26:23,144
So when they, when they want to fee optimize, they cannot include something that
pays a high fee, but that is invalid.

625
01:26:24,144 --> 01:26:31,144
So when all the miners do, if all the miners do this, then the network just
upgrades, even if individual people are running only a subset of the filters.

626
01:26:32,144 --> 01:26:35,144
So they only have some filters, but not others. It doesn't matter. So.

627
01:26:36,144 --> 01:26:41,144
Good God, man. Have you, have you broken the hedge of money, the, the Bitcoin core?

628
01:26:42,144 --> 01:26:57,144
I don't know. I mean, it's a lot, you know, it's a lot, it's much, it's much more
irrational. And I think that this is, I think may have discovered like a profound
truth about like how everything regresses into a cult, unless it has constant.

629
01:26:57,144 --> 01:27:04,144
Like external feedback, like challenge from the external world without like constant
dynamism and creativity and like interacting.

630
01:27:05,144 --> 01:27:09,144
So like each business doesn't have this problem because business, they could lose a
sale every day.

631
01:27:10,144 --> 01:27:15,144
So they're worried every single day you walk in and you're, you know, they're going
to buy Crest versus Colgate, you know, toothpaste.

632
01:27:16,144 --> 01:27:24,144
And they're, so they're, they have constant feedback. And this is, I think why so
many people prefer the, you know, the free market to other.

633
01:27:24,144 --> 01:27:29,144
Well, I mean, I mean, they are competing against other businesses, other toothpaste
companies. Right. So.

634
01:27:30,144 --> 01:27:37,144
Yes. And the CVS is competing against the Walgreens and even supermarkets. So the
supermarkets compete and stuff like a Walmart.

635
01:27:38,144 --> 01:27:51,144
There's already an enormous amount of competition just to get on the shelf at
Walmart. Walmart will argue on people's behalf. And of course, Walmart will do all
that, like the safety testing for like children and stuff, because they know that it
will come back and hit their brand.

636
01:27:51,144 --> 01:28:05,144
So the sheer scale of competition just to make it onto Amazon is like, I think the
average person can't even really even imagine it. It's, it's immense.

637
01:28:06,144 --> 01:28:12,144
And, and that's a good thing for us as consumers. We love that. And so that's great.

638
01:28:13,144 --> 01:28:30,144
And I think if you don't live in a world where that happens, I think stuff
configures around like into like a weird political cult, academic in the worst sense
of, you know, not in the sense of like a professor looking into like prime numbers
for like 40 years and then cracking something one day.

639
01:28:31,144 --> 01:28:35,144
It's called a sense of just like, blah, blah, blah, like what is happening here.

640
01:28:36,144 --> 01:28:47,144
And so, yeah, I think that this is part of human nature, unfortunately, we have to,
but as you see that you see that the cult evolves and becomes more fragile.

641
01:28:48,144 --> 01:29:02,144
It also then becomes like it becomes more evolved and becomes tighter and it becomes
like incestuous, it becomes more efficient, but then it also becomes more for what
was the word is incestuous.

642
01:29:02,144 --> 01:29:11,144
Yes, it's very like these cults, they must be self referential. So this is also
happens with like woke and like this other stuff like they eat their own.

643
01:29:12,144 --> 01:29:24,144
These weird academic theories, they all just like they just cite each other in a big
circle and it never can never connects with outside reality, which is exactly what
I'm saying is like, but this is another perfect example where when it does.

644
01:29:25,144 --> 01:29:34,144
It's like it's like this, you have stuff that's good at error correction, but it's
like making a lot of errors. So it's getting feedback and it's changing its
configuration around a lot.

645
01:29:35,144 --> 01:29:45,144
And then you have stuff that is bad at error correction. It ignores the errors. It
looks more stable, very superficially, but then it has like some kind of like
explode black swan thing.

646
01:29:46,144 --> 01:30:02,144
So like we saw that earlier in America, you must have seen about this, like the
university president, including the president of MIT, which you would really think
like utterly MIT would be unbelievable, unbelievable thing when you don't have an
internal error correction.

647
01:30:02,144 --> 01:30:11,144
Yeah, eventually you collide with the outside world. And this is also has happened
in Bitcoin kind of with the ordinals thing where ordinals was just like a version of
like counterparty or something that we would have.

648
01:30:12,144 --> 01:30:20,144
We would have just kind of like we would not have made a big deal about we just
would have tolerated it or would have been like kind of shrug or whatever.

649
01:30:21,144 --> 01:30:31,144
But because you can just see how different it is like 2014, 2015 versus today where
it becomes this thing and it becomes even a scapegoat for the fees.

650
01:30:32,144 --> 01:30:37,144
Like no one even cares. Very few people even look up the extent to which the
ordinals are related to the fees.

651
01:30:37,144 --> 01:30:47,144
But that doesn't even matter because the point is, is you get this huge reaction and
then you have like so you see it's people dancing and wizard costumes that's
considered.

652
01:30:48,144 --> 01:30:52,144
We can't have that kind of, you know, do these people realize what the Bitcoin
community was like?

653
01:30:53,144 --> 01:30:58,144
Like it was full of the craziest people you could ever find. Like having a weird
outfit was like nothing.

654
01:30:59,144 --> 01:31:08,144
These people were all crazy. And we can't afford, people would say like we can't
afford to have Udi and Eric up there because.

655
01:31:09,144 --> 01:31:10,144
Oh, fuck off.

656
01:31:10,144 --> 01:31:13,144
Think of how it'll make Bitcoin look bad. It'll make Bitcoin look unserious.

657
01:31:14,144 --> 01:31:22,144
And this is going to like all of our children will grow up in a dystopia because
you're just like, oh my gosh, like I had no idea it was so fragile.

658
01:31:23,144 --> 01:31:28,144
But that's what is, but it's not Bitcoin, it's just the cult. The cult evolves and
it becomes more insular.

659
01:31:28,144 --> 01:31:31,144
And then it becomes when it collides with reality, the collision.

660
01:31:32,144 --> 01:31:46,144
So if you're right that I will with the filter thing, the sideways layers, if you're
right about that, then it will probably be like a really crazy moment.

661
01:31:47,144 --> 01:31:50,144
It'll be like this huge, you know, it'll be really something.

662
01:31:51,144 --> 01:31:58,144
Because, you know, just think about it. It's similar to the MIT thing where imagine
telling the story to random lay people on the street.

663
01:31:59,144 --> 01:32:06,144
Some guy who works a nine to five job and they have to drive to their, they work a
sales job or they are a roofer or something.

664
01:32:07,144 --> 01:32:11,144
And you're like, you, they're like, you have no idea, you know, how bad it is that.

665
01:32:13,144 --> 01:32:22,144
Now people can run whatever software they want to run and they don't have to go
through the, they don't have to, they don't have to go through a five year.

666
01:32:22,144 --> 01:32:36,144
Bitcoin core review rebase and get and go and go and personally go to every single
person on Twitter, including every bot and get that.

667
01:32:37,144 --> 01:32:39,144
Like, I don't know, like a regular person.

668
01:32:40,144 --> 01:32:45,144
They'd be like, do you have any real problems in your life or is it all just like
this, this internet BS?

669
01:32:46,144 --> 01:32:47,144
You know, I have to go.

670
01:32:48,144 --> 01:32:49,144
But, but, but it goes further than that.

671
01:32:50,144 --> 01:32:59,144
For example, if you were to try to get like 95% of the votes for some, for
something, you're not going to get that because.

672
01:33:00,144 --> 01:33:03,144
Yes, this is a big mistake of the process, but continue please.

673
01:33:04,144 --> 01:33:06,144
Well, what wouldn't, I mean, I think, where did I hear this before?

674
01:33:07,144 --> 01:33:13,144
It goes something along the lines of like, like, for example, the 5% that are left
over, they're more incentivized to.

675
01:33:14,144 --> 01:33:15,144
Yeah, they can.

676
01:33:16,144 --> 01:33:17,144
You're familiar with it.

677
01:33:17,144 --> 01:33:18,144
Tell me about it.

678
01:33:18,144 --> 01:33:19,144
How did it work?

679
01:33:19,144 --> 01:33:21,144
There's the, well, okay.

680
01:33:21,144 --> 01:33:28,144
What happened in Bitcoin's history was that we used to have this 95% hashrate
threshold.

681
01:33:29,144 --> 01:33:35,144
And what had happened, a defining moment in Bitcoin's history was that we had the
scaling conferences in 2015.

682
01:33:36,144 --> 01:33:38,144
And then scaling three was like kind of a long ways later.

683
01:33:39,144 --> 01:33:42,144
And it was deeply unsatisfying to one particular miner who left.

684
01:33:43,144 --> 01:33:47,144
And I don't remember which one, but it had 9% and they signaled for Bitcoin
Unlimited.

685
01:33:48,144 --> 01:33:52,144
And maybe, I don't know, I don't want to say the wrong person because it was a
dramatic moment, but anyone can look it up.

686
01:33:53,144 --> 01:33:54,144
It's pretty easy to find.

687
01:33:55,144 --> 01:33:59,144
So they went back and they, they left scaling three and they started signaling with
9% against.

688
01:34:00,144 --> 01:34:06,144
And SegWit as a soft fork, the code, it wasn't finished until the hackathon after
scaling three.

689
01:34:07,144 --> 01:34:11,144
And we had previously to just give people, try to give people a picture of what had
happened.

690
01:34:12,144 --> 01:34:21,144
The old soft forks used to be activated by 90% threshold signal, but no one had ever
intended this as a governance mechanism, really.

691
01:34:22,144 --> 01:34:27,144
And that's because you didn't need a governance mechanism because everyone agreed
with everything.

692
01:34:27,144 --> 01:34:28,144
Everyone wanted Bitcoin to succeed.

693
01:34:29,144 --> 01:34:38,144
And no one would have thrown like a, no one would have like complained about
whatever, like having, there's the soft forks of the past were very simple.

694
01:34:39,144 --> 01:34:44,144
And they were like, you must have a block height in the Coinbase transaction or
something.

695
01:34:45,144 --> 01:34:49,144
They were not, there were nothing, there was, there was no controversy until the
block size war.

696
01:34:50,144 --> 01:34:56,144
And then even then the controversy was not about SegWit itself because SegWit as it
was coded,

697
01:34:57,144 --> 01:34:59,144
it actually was a compromised block size increase.

698
01:35:00,144 --> 01:35:07,144
And it increased block size to four megabytes or created this block weight thing.

699
01:35:08,144 --> 01:35:10,144
So even that was not controversial.

700
01:35:11,144 --> 01:35:14,144
What happened instead was that there was controversy over what to do.

701
01:35:15,144 --> 01:35:16,144
Like there was the block size war.

702
01:35:17,144 --> 01:35:22,144
And then these nine people decided to give it a thumbs down when they left.

703
01:35:23,144 --> 01:35:25,144
They decided to just say, we don't like the process.

704
01:35:25,144 --> 01:35:32,144
Now, I don't, I would love to know if anyone could interview them in a way that
guarantees they tell the truth or something.

705
01:35:33,144 --> 01:35:37,144
I've always thought that they just meant that as a kind of like an angry lashing
out.

706
01:35:38,144 --> 01:35:45,144
And I thought that they never really, I think it's possible they didn't even realize
that when they did that, that it would block SegWit.

707
01:35:46,144 --> 01:35:47,144
But I'm not, I'm not sure.

708
01:35:48,144 --> 01:35:49,144
Maybe they realized the whole time and they said that.

709
01:35:49,144 --> 01:35:55,144
It doesn't really make any sense because what we're talking about now is why is the
95% threshold bad?

710
01:35:56,144 --> 01:36:00,144
And it only worked in the time when there was no controversy.

711
01:36:01,144 --> 01:36:08,144
And it was really very much a courtesy where they said, we don't want any miners to
accidentally lose money because the miners are our friends.

712
01:36:09,144 --> 01:36:15,144
Everyone, happy friendship, you know, hearts and rainbows were everywhere.

713
01:36:15,144 --> 01:36:21,144
So it was like, but everyone, but every single person knew that 100% threshold.

714
01:36:22,144 --> 01:36:30,144
Well, that's, that's a terrible idea because you have someone just troll the process
and that's, we have no real way to get rid of that person.

715
01:36:31,144 --> 01:36:32,144
But people did not generalize.

716
01:36:33,144 --> 01:36:39,144
They failed to generalize that logic all the way up to 49.9%, which is what they
probably should have done.

717
01:36:40,144 --> 01:36:42,144
But no one really realized how bad things had gotten, I think.

718
01:36:42,144 --> 01:36:45,144
Scaling three was like just kind of people are at wit's end.

719
01:36:46,144 --> 01:36:48,144
And it had already been, the precedent had already been set.

720
01:36:49,144 --> 01:36:50,144
And you know how precedents are.

721
01:36:51,144 --> 01:36:59,144
So this, this was how it had been done with a bunch of really funny exceptions that
were, they would only underscore how much the precedent.

722
01:37:00,144 --> 01:37:07,144
People would prefer the precedent because of those wacky situations where like there
was, it was supposed to, this is a funny one.

723
01:37:07,144 --> 01:37:16,144
A particularly funny instance was when one soft fork was supposed to activate by a
certain date, but not enough miners had upgraded by that date.

724
01:37:17,144 --> 01:37:18,144
So they just pushed the date back.

725
01:37:19,144 --> 01:37:25,144
And it was like, you know, it's kind of like the tail wagging the dog or maybe vice
versa, depending on how you look at it.

726
01:37:26,144 --> 01:37:34,144
But anyway, the point is we needed 95 and we only had, there was no way to get to 95
because people were running a completely different client.

727
01:37:34,144 --> 01:37:43,144
They ran the Peter Ryzen large block Bitcoin limited client, which did not behave
differently, but it certainly wasn't a signal for SegWit because they're just, I
don't know.

728
01:37:44,144 --> 01:37:59,144
Now, what that does is it means when you have a threshold that is not 50%, it
creates a strategic problem, this sort of limbo where the, no one is getting what
they want.

729
01:37:59,144 --> 01:38:05,144
So when it's 51%, you have a clear, you have closure, you have a clear outcome.

730
01:38:06,144 --> 01:38:13,144
And some people got what they want, others did not, but you at least tried something
and you know what to do again.

731
01:38:14,144 --> 01:38:23,144
And in particular, so a useful experiment might be to imagine what would have
happened had the threshold been 51% back in the day.

732
01:38:23,144 --> 01:38:28,144
For this event, this is the moment, one of the most important events in Bitcoin's
history.

733
01:38:29,144 --> 01:38:42,144
Because one of the many things it did is it took, it escalated the hate of the large
and small blockers into different levels and it put the miners on the large blocker
team eventually and the small blockers, devs.

734
01:38:42,144 --> 01:38:53,144
And then there was this minor developer hatred and mistrust that persists to this
very day and which is what created all this soft fork drama, which is de facto
irrational, which you can see.

735
01:38:54,144 --> 01:39:01,144
You can basically prove that it is because you can see how people's opinion
flip-flops on something like CTV 119, where they hate it at one point, they love it.

736
01:39:02,144 --> 01:39:03,144
Now they hate it again.

737
01:39:04,144 --> 01:39:09,144
And then it's like the whole, none of it has anything to do with, none of it is
guided by any kind of rational process.

738
01:39:09,144 --> 01:39:17,144
Or even most of the people who campaigned for or against SegWit or Taproot clearly
had no idea what it was.

739
01:39:18,144 --> 01:39:27,144
So many of the pro-SegWit people didn't realize it was a block size increase for
years after and still years after people think that it makes transactions more
efficient or something.

740
01:39:28,144 --> 01:39:29,144
None of that's true.

741
01:39:30,144 --> 01:39:32,144
The Taproot people, they don't know what they, they thought it was a smart contract
upgrade.

742
01:39:33,144 --> 01:39:40,144
You could, from what recorded comments that people made on stage on Bitcoin
conferences, you could see that they had no idea what it was doing.

743
01:39:42,144 --> 01:39:47,144
So the whole thing, the whole process has basically reached a Kafkaesque proportion.

744
01:39:48,144 --> 01:39:53,144
But we can nonetheless say, what would have been different if it was 51%?

745
01:39:54,144 --> 01:39:56,144
Well, 9% would not have been enough to block SegWit.

746
01:39:57,144 --> 01:39:58,144
So it would have just gone through.

747
01:39:59,163 --> 01:40:04,203
There would have been an angry miner, but that would have been no different than the
situation when already had some angry miners, some angry people, some happy people.

748
01:40:04,203 --> 01:40:06,243
So, so nothing would have happened.

749
01:40:06,843 --> 01:40:17,163
And you might say, well, Paul, you're just kind of dodging the question there
because you're evading the issue because what if it, the, the dissenting miner had
had enough, what if they had 52%?

750
01:40:17,163 --> 01:40:31,123
But my claim is that even if they had 52%, what would have happened would have been
by far superior to what actually did happen in our reality, which, which I think is
one of the worst things that could have happened.

751
01:40:31,123 --> 01:40:34,323
But so what would have happened was either one of two things.

752
01:40:34,323 --> 01:40:44,323
Either, on one hand, they would have said, we're blocking this one. See, when you're
9%, you're blocking SegWit, but you don't take full responsibility because you're
only 9%.

753
01:40:44,323 --> 01:40:54,323
But if you block with 52%, you are taking responsibility. You say, I have 52%. This
is my mining network, and I'm not activating SegWit.

754
01:40:54,323 --> 01:41:14,323
Now, then you deal with, since you are taking responsibility, you can be criticized,
and people can do things to you, like they can, if you're a mining pool, and you
don't personally own all this hardware, they could point their hardware somewhere
else, or they could go on Twitter and criticize you, or they could mount a campaign
to persuade you to change what you're doing.

755
01:41:14,323 --> 01:41:32,323
They could say, this person changed, and now you know, since you're 22, you're 52%,
you understand that it's now rational for you to pay attention when people make like
a video, and they say, here's why such and such should change what they're doing.
And here's why it's in their interest, because you say, I really am the one making
the decision.

756
01:41:32,323 --> 01:41:54,323
So whether they get their way or not, it's either they get their way, and then
people criticize them, which is exactly how it should be. And they either ignore the
criticism or reply to it, you know, they change what they're doing. They learn, and
they have to think, am I doing the right thing? Am I not doing the right thing?
Should I change my mind? Should I change what I'm doing?

757
01:41:54,323 --> 01:42:22,323
Or another thing that could happen would be that the people pushing for SegWit could
say, they could also learn something. They could say, well, you know, we really
thought that this was a slam dunk, and this is this is going to increase the block
size, you know, also, in addition to helping lightning work. And yet, an entire 52%
of the people who are pushing for SegWit are not doing the right thing.

758
01:42:22,323 --> 01:42:40,323
An entire 52% is against us. And so they're like, wow, we really misjudged how
seriously people are taking this problem. They're really, really upset about this.
And I think, you know, what could we could we do something differently? Or what
should we do instead?

759
01:42:40,323 --> 01:43:02,323
So this is all this is far superior to this 9%, 95% situation, which has the toxic
limbo, because the 9% person can say, I'm not getting what I want, which is clearly
they wanted some kind of different scaling roadmap, so that I'm not getting what I
want. So you're not getting what you want, either. But no one takes responsibility
for this.

760
01:43:03,323 --> 01:43:29,323
The 9% person, they have a very limited incentive to even listen to anything that
anyone is saying at this point, because the well, I'll get to that in a second,
which is that the, the people who want their want to get up to 95%, they have a very
limited incentive to reach out to the 9% person and give them a concession.

761
01:43:30,323 --> 01:43:46,323
Because they give that person a concession, then what if someone some next guy, he's
got 12% hash rate, but right now they were cooperating, they were in the 95 group,
but they weren't getting any special, you know, attention or any kind of special
consideration or concession.

762
01:43:46,323 --> 01:44:11,323
So they might think, well, wait a minute, I want, I want something too. And then so
you're now you're playing whack a mole with 9%, 12%. All these people can pop up.
And with as long as they've got more than 5%, they can veto. And this veto is makes
it very hard to get anything done. And it also makes it impossible to know to whom
you should reach out to, to change the problem.

763
01:44:11,323 --> 01:44:28,323
Whereas if they have 52%, no one has that problem. It's crystal clear exactly who to
reach out to and what to do and what they want, what they want to know. And so the
whole process can continue to evolve and have a healthier growth of knowledge and
growth of persuasive knowledge and stuff.

764
01:44:28,323 --> 01:44:49,323
But now not only is because of this fact, as if it weren't weren't bad enough, the
9% person, they think they're going to be thinking now I've opened this can of
worms. I've opened Pandora's box. Anyone can now block with more than five, you
know, if you have 6% or more, you can block.

765
01:44:50,323 --> 01:45:14,323
So now we're in a situation where nothing is going to happen. So they don't even
have any incentive to really listen to anyone or participate in anything, they can
just throw this temper tantrum. And then they so this is why that

766
01:45:15,323 --> 01:45:21,323
Yeah, each, each of the six, every 6% is going to want 100, like 99% of the benefit.

767
01:45:21,323 --> 01:45:22,323
Right.

768
01:45:22,323 --> 01:45:24,323
And that doesn't work.

769
01:45:24,323 --> 01:45:37,323
And then more people will be like, well, George over there is starting to get some
good benefits. I mean, what happens if I also start to, you know, switch over? So
yeah, okay, so it becomes difficult.

770
01:45:38,323 --> 01:46:01,323
If it's more than 51%, it just it won't it just just mathematically it game
theoretically will not work. And people don't like that because they think, oh, the
poor 49%, whatever. It's like, yeah, that's not the point. They don't. It's, that's
not the point. The 49% are going to have to get their rights some other way if
they're relying on a pure democracy for that, but that's not but that's not how
people use this type of thing.

771
01:46:01,323 --> 01:46:14,323
People don't say 51% of the hash rate can just rewrite the ledger do whatever they
want. It's always this very narrow thing when there's a dispute between different
options, and you have to disqualify all of them except for one.

772
01:46:14,323 --> 01:46:15,323
Yes.

773
01:46:15,323 --> 01:46:22,323
And that is where you must do 50% 51% or it will just it will just be you will never
get anywhere so that yeah.

774
01:46:23,323 --> 01:46:29,323
I'd like to bring the conversation back into this, this filter mechanism this this
this process.

775
01:46:29,323 --> 01:46:38,323
Because it's running through my mind a little bit on how to design such as such a
piece of software.

776
01:46:38,323 --> 01:46:39,323
Hear me out for a second.

777
01:46:39,323 --> 01:46:53,323
One needs to be careful, I would, I would go as far as to say that the language that
is used to implement the rules, the rule check rule checking, it should be a
completely deterministic language.

778
01:46:53,323 --> 01:47:22,323
The reason is because you want to avoid non determinism. So for example, if you have
a very expressive language, that language might be able to, you know, whoever writes
a rule or is maybe not such a good programmer or something like that, you can
actually force the, the, the, the, the, the filtration mechanism to actually allow
stuff through which should shouldn't go through or stuff that which should go
through but actually doesn't.

779
01:47:22,323 --> 01:47:32,323
So, so it's important that one would have to implement the rules in a specific
deterministic language.

780
01:47:32,323 --> 01:47:44,323
That would be one thing I'd also be looking at. Actually, it's a really interesting.
It's a really interesting piece of software because there's a lot of potential that
can be weaved into that you see, you can you.

781
01:47:44,323 --> 01:47:59,323
I recall my first endeavor I had with you, you mentioned you solve the problem of
oracles. It's also a point where you can actually weave oracles into, into this. Am
I correct?

782
01:47:59,323 --> 01:48:11,323
The Oracle thing must be on its own sidechain because my design and you know, I may
not have solved it. We'll have to see if I actually have or not, but I think I have
gotten it as theoretically close as it can possibly get in practice.

783
01:48:11,323 --> 01:48:28,323
But I think, but yeah, that thing, that's its own very complicated matter. But I
think that we have my project Bitcoin Hivemind, which is originally was originally
called Truthcoin before there were all coins before there was like a coin name for
everything.

784
01:48:28,323 --> 01:48:51,323
But that I think that will be its own sidechain. So that will be 300 rules will
support the 256 sidechains. And then I think that will be because that requires a
little bit of it requires a lot of control over like state and like people's
participate. People have to like basically stake coins. It's not exactly how it
works, but that's okay.

785
01:48:51,323 --> 01:49:08,323
Okay, so now what I'm doing is I'm fleshing out this idea a little bit more. There's
another thing that could be that that I find very interesting. So there's a
something that that scares me about this is, for example, is Nostra in China? No.

786
01:49:21,323 --> 01:49:41,323
And the reason is because relayers are behind an IP address. And if you want to, if
you want to see your your internet go down very, very quickly, you have a war. And
very, very quickly, those nodes, your IP address, if you're a suspect, your your
node, your IP address goes down very quickly.

787
01:49:41,323 --> 01:50:02,323
So, so the problem I have is, how does one create, because I don't think Bitcoin is
robust against the state at all. And the reason is because we use IP everywhere. For
Bitcoin to become robust against the state, you need to be able to disseminate
blocks, not by IP.

788
01:50:12,323 --> 01:50:38,323
And the backup strategy is disseminating blocks, not by IP. So here we are, we've
got this little piece of software that's also doing filtration stuff. And if you
design it correctly, this thing can become the mechanism for distributing or
disseminating blocks other than IP. This is anyway, this is this is one of the major
problems that I am solving. And I see that little entry point there.

789
01:50:38,323 --> 01:50:58,323
That's great. I mean, you know, you may know this, it's kind of obscure, but it's
fascinating, like the older versions of Bitcoin, this has since been removed, which
is probably a mistake. But they would like, there's like the seed nodes that are
like, whatever, like, they may be even DNS resolved, as far as I know.

790
01:50:58,323 --> 01:51:01,323
They are DNS resolved. And Luke Dashjr. is one of them.

791
01:51:02,323 --> 01:51:19,323
Right, he is one of them. And so it's like, this is like a famous list of like,
super cool. But it's like, if the software cannot use the seeds, it has like
multiple backup, it used to have multiple backup strategies, including that the
network would like connect to like, random IRC channels that were like,

792
01:51:19,323 --> 01:51:42,323
that was the early days. Yeah, correct. So I find this fascinating. So no, this is
this is this is good. This is good engineering. I mean, from that perspective,
because IRC is actually very distributed protocol. And it's it's a way of
disseminating a separate protocol disseminating information, you could you could
download the blocks from from IRC from that mechanism.

793
01:51:42,323 --> 01:51:49,323
The people who are running Bitcoin now are not, they don't seem to have the state as
a threat model anymore.

794
01:51:50,323 --> 01:52:06,323
Yeah, there should be a war games thing where we do like little simulations where we
say, okay, this is day one, the whatever, we've lost, we've completely lost all DNS,
we've lost, we just see like, what, you know, what will happen, you know, yeah,
that'd be something that I think we should do.

795
01:52:06,323 --> 01:52:24,323
I mean, I think that we should have wargamed the Canadian truckers thing was that
was that kind of a big eye opener for me where I was like, Oh, no, the project is
actually dying. Because that, you know, that should have been like, because what
actually let me refresh people's memory of what happened.

796
01:52:25,323 --> 01:52:39,323
We had widespread COVID lockdowns, which differed enormously in terms of like, we
have different, you know, there's different countries that have different tolerance
for, and you know, some countries are more urban than others.

797
01:52:40,323 --> 01:52:52,323
And so, you know, it's like, it's very different. Like Tokyo is very different than,
you know, a huge, a huge city where people are crammed together, New York City and
Tokyo are different than whatever, Huntsville, Alabama, I don't know.

798
01:52:53,323 --> 01:53:00,323
So, and Florida is different. Also, Florida gets more, more sunlight has more
beaches, you can go people are outside in the fresh air.

799
01:53:01,323 --> 01:53:11,323
So we had, we had different, many different countries, and we had many different
policies. But what some people decided to do in the democracy of Canada was protest.

800
01:53:12,323 --> 01:53:37,323
They had a very peaceful protest. And what the government decided to do was try to
track down everyone who was protesting and, and freeze their all their bank accounts
and like, basically depriving them, exiling them from economic life in Canada, and
probably, you know, basically forcing them to do whatever they want, you know, like,
very much holding a gun to their head, like you can't get food, you can't, what are
you going to do?

801
01:53:38,323 --> 01:53:52,323
So then the Bitcoin community tried to, like, onboard these people and send them
money. And this would amounted to this amounted to basically, like, at some point,
people had gotten like paper wallets.

802
01:53:53,323 --> 01:54:03,323
And fast forward, nothing useful happened. And the Canadian government confiscated
all of the it was a big, it was confused mess. No one really knew how the where the
money was going or who had it.

803
01:54:04,323 --> 01:54:16,323
And the Canadian government ended up confiscating most of the money, most of the
Bitcoin. So then I was like, Oh, man, this is like directly in our wheelhouse, you
know, this is like as good as it gets.

804
01:54:17,323 --> 01:54:36,323
And we failed to we gave we gave money to the, the, the anti protest, the government
of Canada. And I was like, Well, this is terrible. Like, so that was when I was
like, okay, too many people are neglecting the UX. It is it is like VC parasites or
whatever. So.

805
01:54:37,323 --> 01:54:53,323
So that was when I was kind of a wake up call for me. So and I also I didn't
understand when they removed that stuff about the IRC. And maybe I'm mistaken, but
I'm very confident that I remember that they removed a lot of that, that interesting
stuff about how to bootstrap the network and find peers and stuff.

806
01:54:53,323 --> 01:55:16,323
And I was kind of like, Why? Because it's like, almost never triggered. You know
what I mean? It's like, you have like a backup pacemaker. It's like, Oh, we'll just
remove the battery from that. And it's like, Well, wait a minute, like, why don't we
just leave it the way it is. And so there's people, the process of vacation, the
process of vacation, people are so no offense to them, but they are just so dumb.

807
01:55:17,323 --> 01:55:41,323
They don't know what they're doing. Because even though they're right, that they
don't even know what they're talking about. Because it's like, I it's a shame. We
live in a situation where so many people are either correct or incorrect for the
wrong reason. And they don't. So the code is being changed. Like, what I'm trying to
say is this. A lot of people are against soft forks, because they don't want to
change the protocol.

808
01:55:41,323 --> 01:55:48,323
No, sorry, just just press pause. Just press pause. Do you have you have you seen
how many changes are going into Bitcoin core at the moment?

809
01:56:11,323 --> 01:56:18,323
Because it might add maybe one, someone would have to ask the miners to do something
and that we should all just kill ourselves instead of doing that.

810
01:56:41,323 --> 01:57:07,323
So now you're obligated to like, I don't know, one, just about like, one out of all
the 8 billion people on earth, there's only a few who can really run the node,
according to these bizarre criteria and actually understand, have any idea of what
it's doing.

811
01:57:08,323 --> 01:57:30,323
And so we and then you have all these people who just refactor they want to they
want to be a Bitcoin core developer. So they will refactor lines of code are moved.
No one is going to really review that very carefully. I mean, they will look but
it's possible that you could sneak something by because no one because you don't get
a lot of kudos for reviewing a refactor, you know, I mean, you get some I'm sure but

812
01:57:31,323 --> 01:57:57,323
they like to buy shit. They will buy lots of lines of code around but not actually
doing anything. So people people the soft fork is great because they're usually
small number of line of code and they're great. And that's the one that people don't
like because they can get attention on Twitter for being no one is going to get
attention for fighting against the frivolous refactor where someone sneaks in a key
logger or some kind of other kind of like horrendous thing, or even, you know, just
removing these things.

813
01:57:58,323 --> 01:58:16,323
So I'm fascinated by this whole bootstrap, this whole how the network would work on
something other than IP. I think that's, that's absolutely fascinating. And there
should be, of course, it should have, like, we should be adding as many backup
things that we think will never it should that list should be like 150 things long.

814
01:58:16,323 --> 01:58:40,323
Correct. I mean, like, you should be able to like load a USB stick in there and
down. Sneak in it. Sneak in it. Exactly. It that should be it. We should be working
towards this. And anyway, anyway, so gosh, okay, so we nailed a couple of those
points. One of the points with what were the what was the do's and don'ts? One
should adhere to

815
01:58:41,323 --> 01:58:43,323
Yeah, we didn't really do we didn't do that.

816
01:58:43,323 --> 01:58:44,323
We didn't really go into that.

817
01:58:44,323 --> 01:59:06,323
I had a table that I tweet sometimes I feel bad tweeting it because I think it's so
accurate. It must be very demoralizing for the poor people who have, but you know,
we're all adults here, but no one would have, they made a ton of money, you know,
we're all responsible for our decisions. So, but Bitcoin Cash, the numerous flaws.

818
01:59:07,323 --> 01:59:21,323
One is the the whole circumstances of the timing of the launch this move to call
splitting the vote. So, Bitcoin Cash was launched by Omri Sashay. While, so SegWit2x
was like May or something of 2017.

819
01:59:21,323 --> 01:59:41,323
And so SegWit2x was, it's already a terrible plan. SegWit2x was basically SegWit
will activate on August 1. And three months later, three months later, there will be
a 2x hard fork block size increase.

820
01:59:42,323 --> 02:00:03,323
So like many compromises, everyone was unhappy about it. But, but what happened was,
so this first of all, I just like to take a moment to say that this plan is already
terrible, because it's basically a hostage swap where you one side gives up the
hostages first, and then three months later, they expect to get their hostages back,
which why would they do that?

821
02:00:03,323 --> 02:00:27,323
And but it's also terrible, because one could, one could happen at any time, SegWit
activation, but the other requires everyone to coordinate on a date. So that one
should have been first, just as a matter of organizational principle, but no one
really wanted to do it. There was no momentum for a hard fork anyway, because SegWit
was already going to increase the block size by, by more than a factor of two
anyway.

822
02:00:27,323 --> 02:00:35,323
So, so this whole thing was absurd from the beginning, unfortunately, but that's
where it was. Now, while this plan, this is the plan that the large blockers have
bought into.

823
02:00:36,323 --> 02:00:48,323
While this plan is going, and in fact, at the moment where it would have the highest
goodwill, which is when SegWit activated on August 1, and it did not activate
because of the UASF, although the UASF was waiting.

824
02:00:48,323 --> 02:01:10,323
It, miners folded right before and activated it the normal way, and it just happened
to activate around August 1. Kind of a weird coincidence that that's the day that
Omri Sashay launched Bitcoin Cash, which is the worst day, I think, of all days
ever, because again, everyone is thinking in the large blocker camp that SegWit2x is
the way to go.

825
02:01:11,323 --> 02:01:20,323
And I even clearly remember tweets where I think Jameson Lopp asked, so is, now that
Bitcoin Cash exists, is SegWit2x off?

826
02:01:21,323 --> 02:01:27,323
Perfectly reasonable question, because we all understand network effects, I thought,
but apparently not.

827
02:01:27,323 --> 02:01:31,323
And then someone like, so like Eric Voorhees replied, and Eric Voorhees is a very
smart guy.

828
02:01:32,323 --> 02:01:35,323
He replied and he said, of course not, Bitcoin Cash is some other thing.

829
02:01:37,323 --> 02:01:39,323
SegWit2x is still on, or whatever.

830
02:01:40,323 --> 02:01:41,323
This is what I mean by splitting the vote.

831
02:01:42,323 --> 02:01:50,323
So then later, SegWit2x, the timing is extra worse, because at the exact moment,
SegWit2x is totally humiliated when they abandoned it, because it's a terrible plan.

832
02:01:51,323 --> 02:01:53,323
Because as I've already said, you've already given your hostages away.

833
02:01:54,323 --> 02:01:59,323
So, of course, they were going to say, well, we're not giving you 2x hard fork now
for nothing.

834
02:02:00,323 --> 02:02:01,323
That's just too much.

835
02:02:02,323 --> 02:02:03,323
You're just giving too much.

836
02:02:04,323 --> 02:02:05,323
It's just unreasonable.

837
02:02:06,323 --> 02:02:07,323
The plan was terrible.

838
02:02:08,323 --> 02:02:10,323
So this is the exact moment that this was sort of humiliated.

839
02:02:11,323 --> 02:02:12,323
Large blocker group was humiliated.

840
02:02:13,323 --> 02:02:21,323
Then Roger just kind of has some kind of tweet where he says, OK, this thing that
has been around for months, that Eric said is not the official thing.

841
02:02:22,323 --> 02:02:26,323
That's now the Bitcoin.com will be supporting Bitcoin Cash.

842
02:02:27,323 --> 02:02:29,323
And then they got into a big fight over the ticker.

843
02:02:30,323 --> 02:02:31,323
They said, we want the BTC ticker.

844
02:02:32,323 --> 02:02:33,323
We are the real Bitcoin.

845
02:02:34,323 --> 02:02:35,323
We want the Bitcoin name.

846
02:02:36,323 --> 02:02:37,323
Bitcoin Cash is the real Bitcoin.

847
02:02:38,323 --> 02:02:42,323
So this is another issue, is the name was always not great.

848
02:02:43,323 --> 02:02:54,323
So the small blockers had the opportunity to obtain like the Bcash, like social
media accounts, like Bcash.com and whatever.

849
02:02:55,323 --> 02:02:57,323
Then they tried to get the name Bcash.

850
02:02:58,323 --> 02:03:01,323
But implicit, that was itself kind of a little bit of a dirty move.

851
02:03:02,323 --> 02:03:04,323
But fair game, I suppose.

852
02:03:05,323 --> 02:03:06,323
But kind of still dirty.

853
02:03:06,323 --> 02:03:19,323
But it underlies a kind of deep truth, which is that Bcash was actually a better
name than Bitcoin Cash because people prefer words to mean the same thing on Tuesday
that they meant on Monday.

854
02:03:20,323 --> 02:03:23,323
And they already have the Bitcoin word is already locked into something.

855
02:03:24,323 --> 02:03:30,323
So people are then like Bitcoin Cash, you have to wonder, am I being misunderstood
when you talk about it?

856
02:03:31,323 --> 02:03:36,323
So the name was tough and fighting for it after the fact was not good.

857
02:03:37,323 --> 02:03:38,323
And then when you lose, then you are humiliated again.

858
02:03:39,323 --> 02:03:41,323
So I don't know.

859
02:03:42,323 --> 02:03:43,323
That's another one of the problems.

860
02:03:44,323 --> 02:03:45,323
So the timing was horrendous.

861
02:03:46,323 --> 02:03:47,323
Fighting over the name was not good.

862
02:03:48,323 --> 02:03:58,323
A bigger problem, though, even in that is that Bitcoin Cash did not actually solve
the problem, either of block size or of governance, which is exactly what the block
size war was about.

863
02:03:58,323 --> 02:04:01,323
In contrast to where BIP300 actually does.

864
02:04:02,323 --> 02:04:09,323
Because everyone knew that, you know, one megabyte versus eight megabytes is what
they wanted, I think.

865
02:04:10,323 --> 02:04:11,323
Eight is not really.

866
02:04:12,323 --> 02:04:14,323
Eight is not enough to scale to the entire globe.

867
02:04:15,323 --> 02:04:17,323
It's only eight times bigger than one.

868
02:04:18,323 --> 02:04:23,323
So it's like, well, we're going to are we just going to wait till that one fills up
and then do it again?

869
02:04:24,323 --> 02:04:26,323
And then are we just going to keep doing this over and over again?

870
02:04:27,323 --> 02:04:28,323
This is going to be a big process.

871
02:04:29,323 --> 02:04:41,323
And so even for anyone who thought that the block size should be something else, no
one could clearly articulate like what that was or why it should be now that it
moved to eight and then what the schedule should be.

872
02:04:42,323 --> 02:04:54,323
So even there were some people, I think BIP101, it was called a BIP that I think a
Peter Wiles co-author on or something that had like the block size increase to two
and then grow by like 11 percent a year or something.

873
02:04:55,323 --> 02:04:57,323
So that was at least that would at least.

874
02:04:57,765 --> 02:05:24,765
Purport to solve the problem of block size and of governance, which is to say, this
is what it is permanently, but instead, you know, everyone, you know, it's kind of
baffling because this the idea does not actually represent it can't represent it
doesn't it just kicks the can down the road and so all the reasons for why it's not
permanent, it's not going to be permanent, it's not going to

875
02:05:25,765 --> 02:05:27,605
ignoring the.

876
02:05:29,725 --> 02:05:42,205
Let me put it this way, like there will be a new there will be a new time when
people disagree over the block size, even if it was eight megabytes, some will say
eight is we've come far enough, but now no further.

877
02:05:42,805 --> 02:05:48,285
And then some people will say, we wonder, so will we split again and then we'll just
split again and again and again and again.

878
02:05:49,045 --> 02:05:54,605
And so I think everyone kind of had this intuitive understanding that this this this
this didn't really even make any sense.

879
02:05:55,045 --> 02:05:59,325
And so that it was like, what what is the actual alternative?

880
02:05:59,325 --> 02:06:01,805
You know, in politics, you can't beat something with nothing.

881
02:06:02,245 --> 02:06:05,045
So so it didn't actually solve the problem at all.

882
02:06:05,045 --> 02:06:09,005
You would you just kicks the can down the road and moves the problem over a little
bit.

883
02:06:09,805 --> 02:06:11,325
You some kind of final solution.

884
02:06:12,325 --> 02:06:18,965
There's another problem with Bitcoin cash is that the idea of large one block ism is
not good.

885
02:06:20,645 --> 02:06:22,245
It's probably better with hindsight.

886
02:06:22,925 --> 02:06:25,605
It's probably better than going all in on lightning.

887
02:06:25,845 --> 02:06:28,445
But you see, this is the thing is a Bitcoin.

888
02:06:28,445 --> 02:06:32,605
It's only an illusion that Bitcoin BTC has gone all in on lightning.

889
02:06:32,605 --> 02:06:36,125
It's a very convincing illusion and it has the danger of becoming reality.

890
02:06:36,605 --> 02:06:40,005
But you see, it's really not because you're still a way out.

891
02:06:40,005 --> 02:06:41,805
You're still a way out this way.

892
02:06:41,845 --> 02:06:42,925
There's other ways out.

893
02:06:42,925 --> 02:06:45,285
ARK, Covenants, BIP300, et cetera.

894
02:06:46,125 --> 02:06:48,605
So we can kind of see with hindsight that.

895
02:06:49,965 --> 02:06:53,845
The lightning idea looks a lot worse, however.

896
02:06:54,725 --> 02:07:04,925
The large block on L1 idea still has the same problem that it's always had, which is
that you can put a large block, you can put a more expensive layer on top of a cheap
L1.

897
02:07:04,925 --> 02:07:11,325
You do small L1, large L2, but you really can't do the reverse because they're
mandatory in one direction.

898
02:07:12,005 --> 02:07:23,965
So it's like saying you must join this rich country club and then you can
optionally, you know, for an extra five dollars, you know, the country club
membership is like twelve thousand dollars a month or something.

899
02:07:24,165 --> 02:07:30,845
But for an extra five dollars, you can get a candy cane or something, you know, it's
like, but that doesn't make sense.

900
02:07:30,845 --> 02:07:39,645
But the reverse makes a lot of sense where everyone has to pay five dollars and then
a couple of people, if they want, can pay twelve thousand dollars a month and go
golfing or whatever.

901
02:07:39,965 --> 02:07:40,445
So.

902
02:07:41,645 --> 02:07:43,765
That that's not yet another problem.

903
02:07:45,805 --> 02:07:54,525
You know, I made a really long list at one point, I want to know just some details,
so like the replay protection was a mistake, they should have done full transaction
replay.

904
02:07:55,525 --> 02:08:01,525
Instead, they did full transaction replay protection, the replay protection, I don't
know.

905
02:08:02,845 --> 02:08:17,845
It's a it's a misnomer because who's being protected from what nothing as far as I
know, the replay protection is just a concession to the preexisting chain that you
will that you will stigmatize yourself by.

906
02:08:18,805 --> 02:08:21,445
Forcing you to become a different chain, so I don't.

907
02:08:22,765 --> 02:08:30,925
I don't know, no one is being protected in that scenario that anyone the end user
can always broadcast on only one network or the other.

908
02:08:32,845 --> 02:08:38,005
Using very innumerable wallet tricks or other kinds of things that make it opt in
so.

909
02:08:38,005 --> 02:09:00,645
So that's another mistake they also got they kind of got into a quagmire where they
are one one huge issue was that they this is part of what I mean about them not
solving the problem of governance is that it's solving the problem of block size
they go from one to eight, but then they quickly get outflanked by Bitcoin SV, which
just goes to whatever, infinite.

910
02:09:00,845 --> 02:09:04,445
So now they're stuck in a position where they have to say, well.

911
02:09:04,445 --> 02:09:05,445
We fucked up.

912
02:09:05,605 --> 02:09:24,965
Yeah, it's they have to say something like the problem with Bitcoin SV is the blocks
are too large and now it's like, oh, no, like now what now you're it's just it's a
very so it's it's it's unfortunate, but I think that they but it's intriguing that
despite all of that after after in November.

913
02:09:24,965 --> 02:09:42,805
Roger announced his support for Bitcoin Cash it did make it to number two for a day
it flip into theory and you remember that tweet and the congrats on this seriously
so it was the most successful altcoin sort of despite all these numerous flaws.

914
02:09:42,805 --> 02:10:07,805
But I think it failed so badly that it unfortunately discredited the hard fork
institution there was one or two more more things it's kind of minor but they were
they were relevant I think which were that they they got well first of all, there's
not too much time talking Greg Maxwell would show up and start talking to them on on
our R slash BTC which I don't know why they allowed themselves to just be distracted
by that.

915
02:10:07,805 --> 02:10:31,805
But then one thing was that, like, Omri wanted some money for development, which is
kind of reasonable, and then he wanted to put in this tax and then people wanted to
say, is that volunteerism or not and they got into a big fight over that this is the
point is you live by the fork die by the fork, you split off, then you have to worry
about other people splitting off again, which is exactly what happened.

916
02:10:31,805 --> 02:10:47,805
And so, so I think they did just about everything wrong I think it's baffling to the
split the vote thing is the most important thing you, you need everyone to
understand why they're joining the coalition and why and you need sovereignty over
your name, you don't want to be fighting over the name.

917
02:10:47,805 --> 02:11:05,805
So that's some of my some of my list I have a piece of writing somewhere I'm sure I
forgot things. I mean, you know, but there's that was a lot of that is more than
enough to keep people.

918
02:11:05,805 --> 02:11:33,805
I'm chugging along. What were the any other.

919
02:11:34,805 --> 02:11:54,805
I mean, how are you going to stop BTC from just now hard forking like sure a lot of
the existing people would be like, you know, fired or discredited, but it all takes
is one person in the BTC community to who doesn't want to lose their money to
Bitcoin cash to just say, take a leadership role, release large block hard fork at a
later date.

920
02:11:55,805 --> 02:12:22,805
So this is all this stuff was very difficult for, they made their job almost
impossible to succeed. But despite that they made it to, but yeah I don't know I see
the threads we managed to talk about something about next step so yeah I think maybe
the only way I still have a last stone to unearth, I mean really to because I have
to release a good S net network so that everyone can see.

921
02:12:23,805 --> 02:12:29,805
Even normal people can just experience for themselves like what the 300 would do if
it were brought to Bitcoin.

922
02:12:30,805 --> 02:12:42,805
But I'm already doing that but I have to do a better job of that. We're improving
that as we speak, and then have to do this, this thing that miners could run that is
very respectful.

923
02:12:43,805 --> 02:13:10,805
I mean people will, I imagine the critics who you and I would agree we should just
ignore at this point, these type of critics but they will say that this is skirting
around the Bitcoin core process but it's really it's really actually respecting the
process by not saying we won't, they don't, they have made it very clear both in
person and in other communications that they get very uncomfortable dealing with
soft forks even ones that they personally think are necessary.

924
02:13:10,805 --> 02:13:19,805
So another example of this is that everyone should at least hear about is 1.18, BIP
1.18, any privouts that catch no input.

925
02:13:20,805 --> 02:13:39,805
That's in lightning white paper. That's necessary for L2 for it would improve
lightning by preventing this state of I mean lightning is kind of unfixable but
lightning currently has this endlessly growing thing in RAM of all the states that
you have to react to like old western style.

926
02:13:39,805 --> 02:13:48,805
But they will do away with that is already been coded by reputable people and it has
been active on Cygnet for a while.

927
02:13:49,805 --> 02:13:53,805
So it jumps all the normal hoops and yet no one wants to touch activation.

928
02:13:53,805 --> 02:14:00,805
So it's not BIP300. It's not me. It's not Drivechain.

929
02:14:00,805 --> 02:14:07,805
It's just that people the process has faltered as a kind of collateral damage from
the scaling war.

930
02:14:08,805 --> 02:14:19,805
The process is defective and they don't they don't want to participate and you can
see why because look Jeremy participate and I participate we get all kinds of like
harassment and abuse, all of which is totally unfair.

931
02:14:19,805 --> 02:14:30,805
And, you know, but I mean it's I'm not complaining about that but I'm just stating a
pure fact that it's all in Jeremy's case it's obvious that he everyone liked the
idea.

932
02:14:30,805 --> 02:14:35,805
And then even when he proposed activating it, they all like no one would ever
criticize the idea.

933
02:14:35,805 --> 02:14:37,805
They would say we just don't like it being activated this way.

934
02:14:37,805 --> 02:14:41,805
And now they and now the talk of the town is how to activate 119.

935
02:14:41,805 --> 02:14:52,805
So that's the process is someone comes up with a good idea and then he was so
vilified that he quit.

936
02:14:52,805 --> 02:14:59,805
Not only Bitcoin development be basically quit Bitcoin over this and now it's only
sort of recently it's like half return.

937
02:14:59,805 --> 02:15:20,805
So that's really the relationship people want to have with people come up with like
great Bitcoin technology like now as of now his idea and mine are the only that
would could even theoretically allow ever more than a small number small percentage
of the earth's population to use.

938
02:15:21,805 --> 02:15:29,805
To actually own Bitcoin in a sense of like a technical way of owning it like
noncustodially.

939
02:15:29,805 --> 02:15:39,805
So the whole thing's a nonsensical but but yeah it's really they don't want to the
software processes they don't want to have anything to do with it.

940
02:15:39,805 --> 02:15:48,805
And they want to instead go back to just coming up with new address formats and
cutting out the IRC chat bootstrapping machine.

941
02:15:48,805 --> 02:15:52,805
So I don't know I think that's just about everything I can remember.

942
02:15:52,805 --> 02:15:53,805
Okay.

943
02:15:53,805 --> 02:15:54,805
Okay.

944
02:15:54,805 --> 02:15:55,805
Well good.

945
02:15:55,805 --> 02:15:56,805
Okay.

946
02:15:56,805 --> 02:15:58,805
Do we have anything more to sort of cover.

947
02:15:58,805 --> 02:15:59,805
Shall we.

948
02:15:59,805 --> 02:16:00,805
Because a lot.

949
02:16:00,805 --> 02:16:08,805
This is going to be I mean I don't know if other people feel this way but I don't
know every Bitcoin podcast for the last years and years has been so so predictable
and boring.

950
02:16:08,805 --> 02:16:12,805
And this is like I mean I hope people get something out of this.

951
02:16:12,805 --> 02:16:16,805
If you don't get something out of this then I don't know.

952
02:16:16,805 --> 02:16:19,805
There's plenty of there's plenty of other stuff out there.

953
02:16:19,805 --> 02:16:25,805
You know you can always go to which we do like a fake a bit where we like pretend to
be like one of the.

954
02:16:25,805 --> 02:16:29,805
I spent so long since I've seen many of the mainstream ones that I don't even know
how to.

955
02:16:29,805 --> 02:16:30,805
Yeah.

956
02:16:30,805 --> 02:16:31,805
How to ridicule them.

957
02:16:31,805 --> 02:16:34,805
But many of them are just really something.

958
02:16:34,805 --> 02:16:35,805
Yeah.

959
02:16:35,805 --> 02:16:36,805
And yeah.

960
02:16:36,805 --> 02:16:40,805
What's your price prediction for the next week or so.

961
02:16:41,805 --> 02:16:43,805
Should we wrap it up then.

962
02:16:43,805 --> 02:16:45,805
I think probably we should.

963
02:16:45,805 --> 02:16:46,805
Yeah.

964
02:16:46,805 --> 02:16:47,805
All right.

965
02:16:47,805 --> 02:16:48,805
And then I'll stop recording.

966
02:17:10,805 --> 02:17:11,805
Oh.