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You're listening to the Bitcoin Takeover podcast, the Bitcoin podcast for OGs and
intermediaries.

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Make sure you subscribe, leave a comment, and like this episode.

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Also, read the new BTC-TKVR magazine. This episode is sponsored by WasabiWallet,

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CryptoSteel, Shopinabit, and SadoDime. Thank you for listening.

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I did the intro and I was muted, so let me try again.

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Hello there and welcome to the Bitcoin Takeover podcast. I am Vlad, your Bitcoin
Influencer's

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Influencer, and I took this catchphrase from Paul Sztorc, who used to call himself
your Bitcoin

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Expert's Expert. And this is Paul's third appearance on the podcast. Originally, the
plan

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was for him to debate someone who is a critic of Drivechains and for me to moderate
that debate,

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but it turned out that nobody wanted to take that side. I mean, there were people
who expressed

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criticism, but they did not want to get on camera and have this debate. So
basically, what we did

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for this episode was to take some different points of view and lots of tweets, lots
of posts, and a

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lot of commentary that we have seen this past week. And we put that together and I'm
going to

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read it. Paul is going to react to it. I think overall, the purpose of this is to be
a bit funny,

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so we're going to have some jokes, but also to be informative because it seems like
too many people

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comment without even at least reading what the BIP is about. And there are lots of
misconceptions

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about it. So hi, Paul. Hello. Hey, thanks for having me. It was Nick Carter who said
that I

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was the Bitcoin expert's expert. I never said that about myself, but people then
started to

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repeat it, you know, and so then what could I do except let it catch on? Fair, I
guess, but you

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didn't push it too much because you kind of suck at marketing. Could have pushed it
back against it

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and insisted that I was nothing. I was no one's expert in anything. So yeah, I guess
so.

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All right, let's do it. Yeah, let's look at your background right now, Paul, because
some people

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call you a spook. Others call you... I think it's the haircut. This guy who's trying
to attack

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Bitcoin. And of course, you have a background in institutions that, of course, are
enemies of

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Bitcoin, right? It's interesting if you put it that way. Oh, NBC Universal. Yeah,
yeah. So let

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me share my screen right now. You worked in biostatistics. Ah, that's a
certification thing

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at once. Weatherhead School of Management. You have an MBA and an MSM in strategic
management,

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operations research, supply chain management. And you have a bachelor's in
economics,

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psychology, mathematics and music. That's right. How does that work?

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Well, I came in with a lot of AP credit, and so I was able to get a good head start
in econ. I

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added a second major, and then I added two minors. And then I graduated. I graduated
in

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three years and stayed on to do a five-year master's degree, but that was too easy.
So I

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added a second master's degree, the master's of science and scientific management.
That's

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like a branch of applied math, operations research. It's like optimization and
things like that.

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Okay. So you worked to calculate the economic cost of CO2 emissions.

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Yeah, I know. That's funny. Yes, I sure did. Yeah. That was used by the White House,

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that model to whatever, as far as I know. Maybe not, but that's what I heard.

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So of course, if you take into account the popular opinion among Bitcoiners on
Twitter,

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global warming is a scam, and therefore you worked on a scam, and you're pushing the

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grift to Bitcoin right now, right? Yeah, I guess so. I got to hand it to Dr.
Nordhaus,

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though. He was always in favor of a carbon tax or a market-based... He would get it
from both sides.

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He would go to a big event, and they'd say, we have Dr. Bill Nordhaus here. And then
he would

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just be like, we need a market-based solution to climate change. And everyone would
just be like,

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furious, furious with him. That's my reading of the situation.

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And I think I have even more stuff that's compromising. You worked as a
statistician,

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not as an economist for Block, which as far as I know, is Jeff Garzik's company.

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That's true.

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And Jeff Garzik coded SegWit2x, so I see a pattern here.

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He did, yes.

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It was kind of a shitty code implementation, if you ask me. But maybe it was on
purpose,

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maybe it was not, I don't know.

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Maybe it was, I don't know either.

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Director of research, and now you're self-employed. You're also CEO of LayerTwo Labs.

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And I took a look at LayerTwo Labs, right? This is LayerTwo Labs.

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You have a summary, you're based in the Cayman Islands. You know who else comes from
an island?

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It's news to me. Now, who?

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You know, the island, Epstein Island, Cayman Islands, of course.

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I'm not aware of ever having been to any Cayman Islands or Georgia.

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This Pook stuff always comes from islands.

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And when you look at people, you see that there's nobody here.

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But let me click on this to see what happens, to see what comes up.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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So, this is a question that I got a lot and fled it.

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Is Paul willing to disclose who participated in LayerTwo Labs $3 million venture
funding round?

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I know, but, you know, because that is, of course, not anyone's business.

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But maybe I'll ask them if they want to disclose themselves.

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But they're all Bitcoin, none of them, there is no venture funding.

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So, I don't know, maybe normal people don't know the difference.

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Venture funds like a specific way of raising money.

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But this was just OG Bitcoiners that have a lot of...

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They just have a lot of money.

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So, they're not VCs.

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Is Roger part of the funding?

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Well, you know, since you bring up that video, I feel compelled to tell the truth,
which is no.

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But now I also feel like if I say no, then I'm just by process of elimination,

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eventually giving away the list.

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So, I feel like that's not...

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But Roger was not an investor in LayerTwo Labs.

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You said was not, as in he could be right now.

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He was not and he still is not.

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I honestly don't really know why he isn't.

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But of course, as I think we all know, he did start to diversify substantially into
altcoins.

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And in particular, he went big into Bitcoin Cash.

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So, I don't know, I have no idea if this is the case or not.

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But I would guess that he would not necessarily want BTC to defeat Bitcoin Cash at
this point.

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So, the idea of Bitcoin gaining the ability to copy any altcoin, including Bitcoin
Cash,

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that probably would...

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He might think of that as eating his lunch or what have you.

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So, my guess is that may even be his worst nightmare.

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I don't know.

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Or maybe he just wants Bitcoin to do well.

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So, he would actually like it.

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But he did not.

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He did not.

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But yes, of course, that's mostly no one's business, obviously.

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You know, this is a very personal note right now, and it's live.

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But when I first interviewed you two years ago, you were much more pessimistic.

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And you were like, yeah, so this is the best solution.

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But hopefully, someone will figure this out in my lifetime.

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And you're so, I guess...

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Pessimistic.

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About what?

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The odds of BIP300 and prediction markets and stuff.

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Oh, well...

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You know, what's actually happened is I think I didn't realize that...

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I thought that everything else in Bitcoin was going well.

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But then I looked more into what everyone else was doing, and it really sucks.

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So, I have kind of like the best thing by far is my...

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Like, I didn't think like, you know...

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So, for example, you know, just like this is all public knowledge.

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But people started to this trend.

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I did this post about lightning limitations like more than a year ago.

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And then people started doing like lightning limitations videos

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with like all the elite people.

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And then at TabConf last year,

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Matt Corral gave a talk that was just called like lightning is broken or whatever.

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And it's just like...

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So, I don't know, like that's just giving you a flavor of...

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So, I was like, oh, actually, I should have probably...

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I should probably do a little more.

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Yeah, I know you did lots of Twitter spaces and you tried to have debates.

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But it seemed like every time you were doing it...

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And I think at one point I joined to listen.

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And I think it was too much of an echo chamber in the sense that you had your
advocates.

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You had people who already know what this is about.

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But you didn't have many critics.

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And it seemed like everyone who wanted to debate

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was finding excuses not to, for some reason.

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Well, we always...

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It was also hard for me to find someone.

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So, I took a week.

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This was supposed to happen sooner.

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But it took a week for me to try to find another...

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Well, that's because there actually are no counter arguments to BIP300.

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Well, there are.

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There's a guy who actually told me that miners can steal for the simple reason

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that the amount of Bitcoin that's put into the sidechain

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is higher than the amount of fees that the miners are going to be collecting.

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And there's also a very good tweet by Zentoshi.

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And he said something along the lines of

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what happens if governments pressure mining pools to act in a certain way.

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And that has to do more with mining centralization

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than it has to do with Drivechains per se.

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Yeah, it has to do with users of the feature.

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So, I think the idea when we evaluate a feature is

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does the feature harm anyone who's not using it?

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So, does multi-sig harm you if you don't use it?

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And if the answer to that question is no, then the feature should be allowed.

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So, I think that's the criterion.

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And the question of whether or not the fees

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will offset the market cap of the sidechain,

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that is basically just the long-run version of Bitcoin's security model.

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That's Zentoshi's idea that eventually the fees will be so juicy

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that they will move block progression forward

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no matter what the value of the Bitcoin is or the transaction throughput is.

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So, if that doesn't work, then we might as well learn about that now.

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That may not work.

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If that doesn't work, then the Drivechain idea should be discarded.

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But you see that...

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Well, another thing you can see is that is a rough math to have to do.

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Like, will miners have an incentive to steal or protect the chain?

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But what is...

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Let's say you're...

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What's the other option?

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Like, someone like Roger Ver, their other option was to go all in on Bitcoin Cash,

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lose a huge amount of money and achieve nothing and not get...

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I mean, maybe they get...

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They have large blocks on their own network,

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but the altcoining is also a great way to get all of your money destroyed.

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So, what is the alternative?

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It may be something bad,

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but really it's a huge improvement over the status quo.

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And again, it is the long-run Bitcoin security model.

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So, if you think that this is bad, then just wait.

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You know, just wait until the subsidy continues to half.

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That is what we're looking at in Bitcoin.

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Yeah, I think that's a useful debate to be had.

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And also something that you said on Twitter.

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I mean, you are surprisingly joyful and in a good mood

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as compared to how you seem when you tweet,

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when you seem grumpy and frustrated and you're trying to get back at trolls.

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This is your degree of psychology at play right now.

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The medium of text, I think, does make it confusing sometimes for people

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if... to read the mood.

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I think, well, certainly it is annoying to be misunderstood.

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But when you get something like,

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Drivechain is for adding shit coins to Bitcoin.

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Like, I know that eventually all these other people

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will eventually come out and say,

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this is not, you know, this is not accurate.

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This is not a smart thing to say, as they are doing now.

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You know what I mean?

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Like, you have people coming out and saying that this is,

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you know, these aren't real criticisms.

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So it may take a little while.

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The, what is it?

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I think Mark Twain or someone said,

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like, a lie can travel halfway around the world

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before the truth is finished putting on its shoes.

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But you understand what I'm saying.

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Like, that critique is horrendous.

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You notice that none of the people who, you know,

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take the idea seriously ever said anything like that.

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Because they know it would disqualify just about everything.

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You know, you can do, you can issue new tokens on liquid.

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You can issue new tokens on lightning.

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That's what tarot is.

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You know, you have RGB, you have ordinals.

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So, so everyone knows that that's not, it's not true.

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So all those people are doing is digging themselves

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into a huge hole.

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I mean, I have to hope that people are not gonna screenshot

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these tweets and it'll be like humiliating forever

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to have a critique that is so wrong.

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So it's not really that,

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that type of thing doesn't really bother me so much.

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I did, for the record, make a collection of tweets

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and I put them in a bookmark folder.

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I'm not sure if they're called tweets or posts

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or X's or whatever.

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The point right now is that I'm going to read these to you

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and I'm going to put them on the screen.

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But before I do that, I think it's useful

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for the handful of newbies who might be listening to this

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to explain what Drivechains are

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and how sidechains are different

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or why they are necessary as compared to Lightning

229
00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,360
because Lightning has been presented

230
00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,840
as this ultimate scaling layer

231
00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:27,120
that's going to do everything.

232
00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,240
And obviously there are some trade-offs

233
00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:31,280
and limitations there.

234
00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:33,120
So I'll let you talk.

235
00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,840
And as you talk, I'm gonna look for these tweets

236
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:36,960
and put them on the screen.

237
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:38,580
Okay.

238
00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,120
What Drivechain is, is a technique

239
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:44,480
for enabling sidechains.

240
00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,440
So it's a two-way peg between,

241
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:48,720
you have Bitcoin Core,

242
00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,680
which is the layer one that we all like,

243
00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:53,120
and you could send your coins

244
00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:54,400
to a different piece of software.

245
00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:56,880
So you can take something

246
00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:58,560
that's like Zcash, the software,

247
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:01,840
cut the altcoin out,

248
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:04,000
remove the altcoin,

249
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:05,760
and then make it so it starts with no coins.

250
00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:07,840
You send Bitcoin over there and you use the feature

251
00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:09,040
and then you can send the coin back.

252
00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,480
So it is an L2, such as the Lightning Network,

253
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:14,080
but instead of a bilateral channel

254
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,400
or instead of a channel plus HTLC's network,

255
00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,280
the network is its own blockchain.

256
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:25,360
So it's like the Zcash software blockchain.

257
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,440
It would be the layer two.

258
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:28,240
And this is important.

259
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,800
This is sometimes called the Holy Grail of Bitcoin

260
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,600
because it not only gives us access

261
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:34,720
to every single feature

262
00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:36,800
that we could possibly want,

263
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:39,920
but also the features are all kind of opt-in.

264
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:41,440
You only get the features that you want.

265
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:43,280
So Roger, if you wanted large blocks,

266
00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:44,320
but other people did not.

267
00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,240
So the trick, the Holy Grail part

268
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,080
is that some people get a feature and others don't.

269
00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:55,280
And one thing I never anticipated

270
00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:57,280
was how confusing that would be for people.

271
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,800
People really just don't wrap their heads around that.

272
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:02,480
It's a relatively simple idea,

273
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:04,160
but they really are convinced

274
00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,760
that if Drivechain allows a large block sidechain,

275
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:09,760
then it is a block size increase

276
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,080
or I get it from the other side

277
00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:15,600
where large blockers will say,

278
00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,120
why do I have to settle for being on the L2?

279
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:21,600
Why can't I have large blocks on L1?

280
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,520
Like people don't seem to get this basic point,

281
00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:25,440
but the more people disagree,

282
00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:28,160
the more it will prove that BIP300 is actually a good idea.

283
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,880
So ironically, the more people fight BIP300,

284
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,000
the more they demonstrate the problem that it solves.

285
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:36,640
Okay, I found the tweets.

286
00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,240
We can start talking about them,

287
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,240
but let me play an ad first and foremost,

288
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:41,920
because I also need to eat.

289
00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,080
So one minute and we'll be back.

290
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,720
Wasabi wallet is unfairly private.

291
00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,160
It's the most advanced and most used Bitcoin privacy wallet

292
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:55,760
with half a million downloads

293
00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,320
across Windows, Mac OS, and Linux,

294
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,720
as well as thousands of fresh new Bitcoins

295
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:02,320
getting mixed every month.

296
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,840
Wasabi makes use of the new generation Wabi-Sabi engine

297
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,240
to create mega coin joins,

298
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:09,760
thus mixing your Bitcoins

299
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,240
with those of hundreds of other users.

300
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:16,320
For amounts lower than 0.01 BTC and remixes,

301
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,720
you pay no coordination fee.

302
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:20,720
Even if you don't use coin joins,

303
00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,600
Wasabi wallet has a native Tor integration

304
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:25,440
and downloads block filters

305
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:27,360
to help you keep your network level

306
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:29,280
and public key privacy.

307
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:30,720
Download Wasabi wallet,

308
00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:33,520
Download Wasabi wallet for free today

309
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,840
at wasabiwallet.io

310
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,200
and experience the future of Bitcoin privacy.

311
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,720
Do you like the pump at Lumdart girls?

312
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:48,160
You're muted.

313
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:50,240
I was going to say that the,

314
00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:55,120
you know, your ad game and intro game

315
00:18:55,120 --> 00:18:56,480
has been improving, you know.

316
00:18:58,480 --> 00:18:59,200
Yeah, yeah.

317
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,680
So I actually paid these actresses

318
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,200
to read out my text,

319
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,240
but I have been accused of promoting prostitution.

320
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:07,840
I was like, what?

321
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:09,360
And then I said, you know,

322
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:12,640
I apologize for not getting real prostitutes, you know.

323
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,800
Next time I should just like Bitcoin uncensored.

324
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:19,840
But let's talk about,

325
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:21,440
you know, this is like the main event.

326
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:22,960
This is why we got here.

327
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:24,640
This is the purpose of this.

328
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:25,440
All right, let's do it.

329
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,320
And I'm going to share my screen

330
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:30,480
on this specific window

331
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,440
where I saved some of the most glorious tweets in existence.

332
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,200
So let's start with this one by John Carvalho.

333
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,440
Just for the record, he is a friend of mine.

334
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:40,400
I look up to him.

335
00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:42,240
When he was here in Romania,

336
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,400
we used to hang out and...

337
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,560
Well, so I mean, I don't know.

338
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:00,720
Again, like I get these weird comments

339
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:02,240
and I don't know like, you know,

340
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:06,000
are they, is it like rhetorical question or what?

341
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,400
It's like the two-way peg,

342
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,960
it's kind of like Mystique, the X-Men, you know.

343
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:13,280
She could turn into any person, you know.

344
00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,040
So Bitcoin could turn into any person.

345
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:16,080
So now there's no need.

346
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,800
Or these like, I use that image

347
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:22,240
where they say 20 years later

348
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,080
and all these things fit in your pocket

349
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:25,760
and the guy holds up a cell phone.

350
00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:28,880
Behind him, there's like a boom box,

351
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,400
there's a video camera, et cetera, you know, typewriter.

352
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,400
So it's kind of like, you know,

353
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,680
why doesn't anyone sell digital cameras anymore?

354
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,800
Because they have a phone instead

355
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:44,000
and the phone has a camera.

356
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:45,600
The camera that the phone has is honestly,

357
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,320
it's just much nicer than most digital cameras,

358
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,000
standalone digital cameras anyone's ever bought.

359
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:51,040
No, I disagree with that.

360
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:53,360
And then the question is like,

361
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:55,680
what would happen to digital cameras

362
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,080
if they added support for touchscreens

363
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,880
and Wi-Fi and, you know, 5G?

364
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,360
Oh, they have that.

365
00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:03,860
Yeah.

366
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:06,560
It's part of the evolution.

367
00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:10,560
But you know that like many more people own,

368
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,160
cell phones have become mainstream part

369
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,480
of human culture and experience,

370
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,120
but merely a digital camera

371
00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:20,080
or a digital camera that also has Wi-Fi has not.

372
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,280
So there's like one thing wins

373
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,120
and the others lose.

374
00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:29,920
And that's why there's no contradiction.

375
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:31,840
I mean, there's no like...

376
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:33,440
I disagree with this analogy,

377
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,200
maybe MP3 players,

378
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,440
because nobody buys an MP3 player anymore.

379
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:38,240
They get their phone

380
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,480
and they put MP3s on their phone

381
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,480
and it's like a multitasking device

382
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:43,760
or a portable radio,

383
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:45,200
because you have that in your phone

384
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,840
and nobody buys a tiny radio anymore.

385
00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:49,440
I mean, people do.

386
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:50,960
But I think it's a better analogy

387
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:52,160
because I have...

388
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:53,520
So I have to defend myself

389
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,280
because I have some very fancy cameras

390
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,000
that I use and I'm trying to not...

391
00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,840
You do, but most people don't.

392
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:01,520
They're niche though, of course.

393
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,240
Most people don't really tell

394
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,800
the difference between a camera and a phone.

395
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:08,160
Who doesn't have a smartphone

396
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:10,960
versus who doesn't have a digital camera?

397
00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:14,800
It's night and day, is it not?

398
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:17,920
I agree with this,

399
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:18,720
but at the same time,

400
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,320
you can't really compare the quality.

401
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,280
Right now, I'm doing this from an actual camera,

402
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:24,640
not a webcam.

403
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,040
I agree with you about that,

404
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:28,880
but that's sort of the point though,

405
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,320
is it has to be really, really superior

406
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:33,680
in its specialized way

407
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,920
to even make a sale at all.

408
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:37,200
Otherwise, it just doesn't exist.

409
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,120
So I don't know.

410
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:42,640
I guess what John must think,

411
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,920
he must think that proponents of BIP300

412
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,800
that when BIP300 activates,

413
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,040
like this magic sphere will expand

414
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:54,960
and destroy all the shit coins instantly.

415
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,520
That's what he must think that we think, right?

416
00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:58,880
I mean, how else can you interpret this?

417
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,080
Well, I think it's a bit offensive

418
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,040
in the context that these altcoins

419
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,000
don't have Bitcoin's network effect.

420
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,800
They don't have the same adoption rate.

421
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,600
They don't have the same value proposition.

422
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,320
Smaller community, smaller, not as recognizable.

423
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,160
They don't even have the same security, right?

424
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,880
Because that's the selling point for Drivechains.

425
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:22,000
You're saying, okay,

426
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,320
why would you want proof of stake

427
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:25,600
to secure your contracts

428
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,800
when it could be this huge hash rate

429
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,800
that's being put together by miners?

430
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:32,180
Right.

431
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:34,240
So I don't know.

432
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:36,320
I don't know.

433
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,960
I mean, are people persuaded by what John says?

434
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:40,240
Is that what they think happens?

435
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,640
Is that if a shit coin adds

436
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,120
support for Drivechains,

437
00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:47,120
it will immediately destroy Bitcoin?

438
00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:48,320
Like that's what he thinks we think?

439
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:48,820
I don't know.

440
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:52,080
Yeah, I got to tell you

441
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:53,920
that you are the second guest

442
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,840
that I get on the Bitcoin Takeover podcast season 14

443
00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:59,840
who gets called an attacker of Bitcoin.

444
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,400
And along these lines,

445
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,640
I have to read another tweet.

446
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,200
I said twet, almost twetch,

447
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:08,480
but I'm going to get canceled.

448
00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:12,000
So Brian Caps Lockhart says,

449
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:13,600
okay, okay, I'll admit I was wrong.

450
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:14,480
It's an attack.

451
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:15,840
But more like,

452
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,320
okay, okay, I'll admit I was wrong.

453
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:19,360
It's an attack.

454
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,800
And this is a screenshot from a tweet of yours.

455
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:23,360
Yes.

456
00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:26,000
Where you're saying miners have the fiduciary duty

457
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,480
to maximize transaction fee revenue

458
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,320
and that will lead them to MASF.

459
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,440
This means miner activated soft fork.

460
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,120
Activate a certain two bips.

461
00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:42,640
So you're talking about 300 and 301, obviously.

462
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:43,120
That's right.

463
00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:43,440
Yes.

464
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:44,640
And then you said you're welcome.

465
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,400
I'm reading out loud for the people

466
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,720
who will be listening to this on Spotify,

467
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:49,600
just for the record.

468
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:55,600
So basically, you said that the miners can activate BIP300

469
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,560
without permission from sovereign nodes.

470
00:24:58,855 --> 00:25:00,295
And Brian Lockhart said that you're an attacker.

471
00:25:00,295 --> 00:25:05,695
It's a 51% attack if miners do something that they want.

472
00:25:05,695 --> 00:25:08,815
Well, I think there's a lot of confusion about the soft fork.

473
00:25:08,815 --> 00:25:11,195
One thing is though, is there's a lot of confusion about BIP300.

474
00:25:11,195 --> 00:25:13,855
It doesn't actually harm anyone if the miners activate it.

475
00:25:13,855 --> 00:25:17,855
So as far as anyone knows, in fact, the miners have already activated it.

476
00:25:17,855 --> 00:25:20,855
You can't even tell.

477
00:25:21,855 --> 00:25:23,855
You can't even tell.

478
00:25:23,855 --> 00:25:25,855
So there is no victim.

479
00:25:25,855 --> 00:25:28,855
So anyone who doesn't like it just doesn't understand it.

480
00:25:28,855 --> 00:25:31,855
That's the bigger picture, I think.

481
00:25:31,855 --> 00:25:39,855
It is true that merely if all that happens is 51% of miners activate a soft fork,

482
00:25:39,855 --> 00:25:42,855
then that is not really enough.

483
00:25:42,855 --> 00:25:44,855
But that's not realistic either.

484
00:25:44,855 --> 00:25:51,855
There will always be some people enforcing it, plus probably much more than 51% hash
rate.

485
00:25:51,855 --> 00:25:54,855
So just in practice, it will activate.

486
00:25:54,855 --> 00:25:58,855
I think I have a dispute, and I was tweeting about this earlier today.

487
00:25:58,855 --> 00:26:02,855
I have a disagreement with Luke Dashjr. and Adam Back,

488
00:26:02,855 --> 00:26:06,855
and I think they are some of the absolute smartest people in Bitcoin.

489
00:26:06,855 --> 00:26:10,855
But I have no idea what they're talking about with this

490
00:26:10,855 --> 00:26:16,855
because the soft fork was invented because it was too difficult to get everyone to
upgrade.

491
00:26:16,855 --> 00:26:19,855
That was the whole reason Arise and Detra.

492
00:26:19,855 --> 00:26:21,855
That was the whole reason it was created.

493
00:26:21,855 --> 00:26:29,855
And so now there's a modern idea that says every single person must upgrade or
whatever.

494
00:26:29,855 --> 00:26:32,855
It's not a soft fork. It's a 51% attack.

495
00:26:32,855 --> 00:26:37,855
But, I mean, that's just not true of any other soft fork that has ever activated on
Bitcoin.

496
00:26:37,855 --> 00:26:41,855
So it's just not true, and people learned all this stuff from other people on
Twitter.

497
00:26:41,855 --> 00:26:43,855
I mean, I lived through it personally.

498
00:26:43,855 --> 00:26:48,855
But I think Adam and Luke are, of course, very smart, and they believe this view.

499
00:26:48,855 --> 00:26:52,855
But I posted a huge thing with bullet point after bullet point about why.

500
00:26:52,855 --> 00:26:56,855
I just don't think it's an accurate description of what happens.

501
00:26:58,855 --> 00:27:06,855
So the sovereign nodes, the nodes don't lose any sovereignty when they are 51%
attacked in this way.

502
00:27:06,855 --> 00:27:09,855
They still enforce all the rules they were enforcing before.

503
00:27:09,855 --> 00:27:11,855
It's as if nothing had happened.

504
00:27:11,855 --> 00:27:14,855
So they don't lose any sovereignty.

505
00:27:14,855 --> 00:27:17,855
It's all just a misunderstanding of what the soft fork does.

506
00:27:17,855 --> 00:27:19,855
Now you've become a blackout.

507
00:27:19,855 --> 00:27:20,855
Now you're back.

508
00:27:20,855 --> 00:27:22,855
You disappeared and then reappeared.

509
00:27:22,855 --> 00:27:26,855
Yeah, I experimented with plugging the charging cable in the camera,

510
00:27:26,855 --> 00:27:29,855
and it seems like it cannot run while it's charging.

511
00:27:29,855 --> 00:27:30,855
Interesting.

512
00:27:30,855 --> 00:27:34,855
I don't want to get into a debate why a phone would have been any better.

513
00:27:34,855 --> 00:27:35,855
I was going to say.

514
00:27:37,855 --> 00:27:39,855
But is there anything you can do about your video?

515
00:27:39,855 --> 00:27:44,855
Because it seems like I can see you on Jitsi, but I cannot see you on the live
stream.

516
00:27:44,855 --> 00:27:46,855
There's just a P.

517
00:27:46,855 --> 00:27:47,855
Oh, what did I do?

518
00:27:47,855 --> 00:27:48,855
Did I do something wrong?

519
00:27:48,855 --> 00:27:50,855
What am I supposed to be doing?

520
00:27:50,855 --> 00:27:52,855
Fix our connection, I guess.

521
00:27:52,855 --> 00:27:56,855
My internet is not – I think I'm plugged into my Ethernet.

522
00:27:56,855 --> 00:27:57,855
It should be.

523
00:27:57,855 --> 00:27:59,855
Maybe I'm not connected to you.

524
00:27:59,855 --> 00:28:00,855
I don't know.

525
00:28:00,855 --> 00:28:02,855
Why am I only a dot?

526
00:28:02,855 --> 00:28:03,855
I was a thing before.

527
00:28:03,855 --> 00:28:05,855
Maybe it'll fix itself.

528
00:28:05,855 --> 00:28:07,855
Hopefully.

529
00:28:07,855 --> 00:28:09,855
So let's get to another tweet.

530
00:28:09,855 --> 00:28:12,855
I think this was the most hilarious of all of them.

531
00:28:12,855 --> 00:28:17,855
I'm still trying to make – to understand what to make of it,

532
00:28:17,855 --> 00:28:25,855
because Vortex said there is absolutely no reason to ever issue altcoins on
Bitcoin's L1 chain.

533
00:28:25,855 --> 00:28:32,855
Those kind of security tradeoffs belong on layers above L1, but never on L1 itself.

534
00:28:32,855 --> 00:28:34,855
There is no way BIP300 is happening.

535
00:28:34,855 --> 00:28:39,855
And this one got 419 likes, 71 retweets, 53 comments.

536
00:28:39,855 --> 00:28:43,855
And a lot of people – so I used to look up to Vortex.

537
00:28:43,855 --> 00:28:46,855
He used to post some really interesting technical content.

538
00:28:46,855 --> 00:28:51,855
But he came up with this, and I basically – so let me show you what my comment is
under his thread.

539
00:28:51,855 --> 00:28:55,855
Sir, just how much time did you spend researching the topic?

540
00:28:55,855 --> 00:28:56,855
30 seconds?

541
00:28:56,855 --> 00:28:57,855
45?

542
00:28:57,855 --> 00:28:59,855
Holy shit, a whole minute?

543
00:28:59,855 --> 00:29:01,855
So blockchain activity does not affect the base layer.

544
00:29:01,855 --> 00:29:08,855
And you already have L1 shitcoins as stamps, inscriptions, counterparty tokens,
colored coins and stuff.

545
00:29:08,855 --> 00:29:10,855
Until next time.

546
00:29:10,855 --> 00:29:15,855
And I actually got an approval from Michael Tidwell, who is the co-organizer of
TabConf,

547
00:29:15,855 --> 00:29:17,855
who said I'm happy someone said it.

548
00:29:17,855 --> 00:29:19,855
But what should I make of this?

549
00:29:19,855 --> 00:29:25,855
He says there is absolutely no reason to ever issue altcoins on Bitcoin's L1 chain.

550
00:29:25,855 --> 00:29:28,855
These kind of security tradeoffs belong on layers above L1.

551
00:29:28,855 --> 00:29:30,855
And, you know, Drivechains are –

552
00:29:30,855 --> 00:29:37,855
Every single sentence, every single clause in every sentence is like 180 degrees
backwards of the truth.

553
00:29:37,855 --> 00:29:39,855
You know, it's almost like a troll.

554
00:29:39,855 --> 00:29:44,855
It's almost like he mistyped the last sentence when he meant to say BIP300 is
happening.

555
00:29:44,855 --> 00:29:46,855
You know what I mean?

556
00:29:46,855 --> 00:29:50,855
That is almost like the only way that it would make any sense.

557
00:29:51,855 --> 00:29:55,855
It was a pro BIP300 tweet because there's no –

558
00:29:55,855 --> 00:29:57,855
I don't understand why there would be –

559
00:29:57,855 --> 00:30:00,855
Like BIP300 puts stuff on L2.

560
00:30:00,855 --> 00:30:04,855
If there is any new token issuance, it's on L2.

561
00:30:04,855 --> 00:30:07,855
And if there is –

562
00:30:07,855 --> 00:30:11,855
Like every single part of the tweet is incorrect.

563
00:30:11,855 --> 00:30:13,855
Yeah, I don't know.

564
00:30:13,855 --> 00:30:16,855
But I think this is one of the most popular tweets on the topic.

565
00:30:16,855 --> 00:30:17,855
And I'm super puzzled.

566
00:30:17,855 --> 00:30:19,855
I'm trying to figure out why.

567
00:30:19,855 --> 00:30:20,855
Why?

568
00:30:20,855 --> 00:30:23,855
Well, maybe you should ask him.

569
00:30:23,855 --> 00:30:27,855
Yeah, I went on his show many times, like in 2016.

570
00:30:27,855 --> 00:30:29,855
It was fun.

571
00:30:29,855 --> 00:30:31,855
Yeah, I don't know.

572
00:30:31,855 --> 00:30:34,855
I honestly have no idea.

573
00:30:34,855 --> 00:30:40,855
I think it's just people that get the information from Twitter.

574
00:30:40,855 --> 00:30:42,855
Yeah, but it's super ironic, right?

575
00:30:42,855 --> 00:30:46,855
We take pride as Bitcoiners as being this crowd of people who don't trust and
verify.

576
00:30:46,855 --> 00:30:48,855
We make our own opinions.

577
00:30:48,855 --> 00:30:50,855
We review if we're not technically competent.

578
00:30:50,855 --> 00:30:51,855
We run a full node.

579
00:30:51,855 --> 00:30:53,855
We care about decentralization.

580
00:30:53,855 --> 00:30:55,855
We uphold principles.

581
00:30:55,855 --> 00:30:58,855
But it's like really people have no idea about anything.

582
00:30:58,855 --> 00:31:00,855
Yeah, it's not a good –

583
00:31:00,855 --> 00:31:06,855
I actually had quite a few people message me over the last few days who were like,

584
00:31:06,855 --> 00:31:10,855
Oh, I had no idea the rank and file Bitcoin were so clueless.

585
00:31:10,855 --> 00:31:14,855
And people said like, Oh, I just want to sell all my Bitcoin now.

586
00:31:15,855 --> 00:31:17,855
So hopefully people don't do that.

587
00:31:17,855 --> 00:31:19,855
But yeah.

588
00:31:19,855 --> 00:31:21,855
I think I experienced –

589
00:31:21,855 --> 00:31:27,855
So if you told me last year that in the next 10 months –

590
00:31:27,855 --> 00:31:30,855
Actually, no, we are almost in September.

591
00:31:30,855 --> 00:31:37,855
In the next nine months, we're going to see how people advocate for censoring
transactions in the mempool

592
00:31:37,855 --> 00:31:40,855
and filtering certain types of transactions.

593
00:31:40,855 --> 00:31:44,855
And then try to say that shit coins are fine.

594
00:31:44,855 --> 00:31:47,855
And we should not bring some use cases to Bitcoin sidechains.

595
00:31:47,855 --> 00:31:50,855
Like I would tell you that you're crazy last year.

596
00:31:50,855 --> 00:31:53,855
But this year, it seems like, I don't know.

597
00:31:53,855 --> 00:31:59,855
Did I step into a portal with an alternate dimension where people are fine with shit
coins,

598
00:31:59,855 --> 00:32:03,855
but they are fine with them but don't like to admit that they are?

599
00:32:03,855 --> 00:32:08,855
Or maybe that these same people are under paychecks by the people who benefit from
shit coins?

600
00:32:08,855 --> 00:32:10,855
Because a lot of the Bitcoin scene –

601
00:32:10,855 --> 00:32:12,855
And I don't want to talk shit about anyone.

602
00:32:12,855 --> 00:32:17,855
But it's suspicious how many of these people are financed by Bitfinex and Kraken.

603
00:32:17,855 --> 00:32:20,855
And Bitfinex and Kraken are doing a lot of stuff on Ethereum.

604
00:32:20,855 --> 00:32:24,855
So why don't we get part of that share?

605
00:32:24,855 --> 00:32:27,855
Maybe not everything that they're doing.

606
00:32:27,855 --> 00:32:32,855
Maybe not the Leo token or whatever is happening there at Bitfinex.

607
00:32:32,855 --> 00:32:37,855
But still, some Tether stuff that can easily be put on some sidechain of Bitcoin.

608
00:32:37,855 --> 00:32:41,855
It is already on Liquid, but what's the volume on that one?

609
00:32:41,855 --> 00:32:49,855
I guess it must be the trust model or something that did not let that one get too
much traction.

610
00:32:49,855 --> 00:32:50,855
You're sort of almost –

611
00:32:50,855 --> 00:32:55,855
Well, with something like that, you kind of want to be with the herd.

612
00:32:55,855 --> 00:32:57,855
You want to be where everyone else is, I guess.

613
00:32:57,855 --> 00:32:58,855
I mean, I don't really use Tether.

614
00:32:58,855 --> 00:33:02,855
But I think my guess is you would want to be wherever most people are.

615
00:33:02,855 --> 00:33:06,855
So that you have a strength in numbers type of a thing.

616
00:33:06,855 --> 00:33:07,855
But, yeah, I know.

617
00:33:07,855 --> 00:33:09,855
I think it's all baffling.

618
00:33:09,855 --> 00:33:14,855
I think partially it's just normal group psychology of just deforming the cult that
becomes more and more insular.

619
00:33:14,855 --> 00:33:17,855
And that will eventually just cancel everyone in it.

620
00:33:17,855 --> 00:33:22,855
And I think that – yeah, I think it doesn't really make any sense.

621
00:33:22,855 --> 00:33:26,855
I mean, BIP300, I think it is too good of an idea.

622
00:33:26,855 --> 00:33:29,855
It does all these great things and has no downside.

623
00:33:29,855 --> 00:33:32,855
And, therefore, it actually makes a lot of other people look bad.

624
00:33:32,855 --> 00:33:34,855
Or it makes other projects look bad.

625
00:33:34,855 --> 00:33:44,855
Or it makes – if someone is funded, if they have equity in some other startup, it
actually looks bad if I give this idea away for free.

626
00:33:44,855 --> 00:33:47,855
So that's just like the reality, I think.

627
00:33:47,855 --> 00:33:54,855
And I don't know exactly the – like the misconceptions are all not valid.

628
00:33:54,855 --> 00:33:57,855
Because I'm happy to discuss them all until the cows come home.

629
00:33:57,855 --> 00:34:08,855
But if you go back to the November 2015 post, you can read that I anticipated all
the valid objections, which I just referred to as basically misunderstandings.

630
00:34:08,855 --> 00:34:11,855
I said this is what people will misunderstand.

631
00:34:11,855 --> 00:34:14,855
I was completely right.

632
00:34:14,855 --> 00:34:15,855
So, yeah.

633
00:34:15,855 --> 00:34:17,855
And then people say, like, whatever, this is an attack on Bitcoin.

634
00:34:18,855 --> 00:34:31,855
But it's like, no, I predict – every single thought that has passed through the
Drivechain critic's head, I predicted before November 2015 when I wrote the article
about what it is.

635
00:34:31,855 --> 00:34:41,855
And oftentimes people just confuse, like, they don't even bother to keep straight,
like, Blockstream's vision of sidechains versus mine versus whatever.

636
00:34:41,855 --> 00:34:44,855
So maybe, I don't know if we have more tweets about that.

637
00:34:44,855 --> 00:34:53,855
But, yeah, I think the Bitcoin vortex, quote, maybe it just shows, I think, how
these people are all just virtue signaling to each other.

638
00:34:53,855 --> 00:35:03,855
And they don't actually – it's kind of like when you see people at, you know, like a
Republican rally or a Democrat rally.

639
00:35:03,855 --> 00:35:05,855
And it's all just performative.

640
00:35:05,855 --> 00:35:08,855
That's my guess as part of it.

641
00:35:08,855 --> 00:35:12,855
I think it is just the cult is very strong.

642
00:35:12,855 --> 00:35:13,855
People want to be popular.

643
00:35:13,855 --> 00:35:18,855
They don't want – no one wants to have a bunch of people on Twitter, like, yelling
at them or whatever.

644
00:35:18,855 --> 00:35:24,855
And as a result, you know, it's just – this will happen from time to time.

645
00:35:24,855 --> 00:35:34,855
The irony is, of course, once we activate BIP300, this will never happen again
because there will be no more – there will not be a need for any soft fork on
Bitcoin L1.

646
00:35:34,855 --> 00:35:38,855
And there also won't be any need for any toxicity because people will get whatever
they want.

647
00:35:38,855 --> 00:35:43,855
So this is like – this is the final boss, really, to some extent.

648
00:35:43,855 --> 00:35:51,855
So first of all, I got to tell the people from the chat, there's BitGwin who asked a
couple of good questions.

649
00:35:51,855 --> 00:35:55,855
There's Florin Stelian who said something interesting.

650
00:35:55,855 --> 00:36:02,855
And also Matthew Haywood who basically told me that I'm citing too much with you and
I should read some valid criticism that has been tweeted, which I will.

651
00:36:02,855 --> 00:36:04,855
It's on the list.

652
00:36:04,855 --> 00:36:11,855
Yeah, put them – anyone in the comments – put your irate messages in the comments
and we'll do them all.

653
00:36:11,855 --> 00:36:14,855
I mean, I've been doing this, like, you know, for months and months.

654
00:36:14,855 --> 00:36:16,855
So I'll do it, you know.

655
00:36:16,855 --> 00:36:21,855
It's hard for people to come up with something that I haven't heard dozens and
dozens of times already.

656
00:36:21,855 --> 00:36:24,855
Before that, I want to ask you this.

657
00:36:24,855 --> 00:36:31,855
What happens if a Drivechain becomes dominant, meaning that it has more transactions
and generates more fees than the base layer?

658
00:36:31,855 --> 00:36:37,855
I think that is – I don't think there's anything wrong about that and I think that
actually is likely to happen.

659
00:36:37,855 --> 00:36:48,855
Because the base layer – my view is all the fees will be – every transaction will
not – like, from far away, Bitcoiners have this view.

660
00:36:48,855 --> 00:36:51,855
In the future, Bitcoin will be the only thing that there is.

661
00:36:51,855 --> 00:37:06,855
And you'll need Bitcoin to eat and you'll be happy to pay $50 or $100 or $1,000 per
transaction, you know, thousands of times per day, 24-7, 365.

662
00:37:06,855 --> 00:37:08,855
So a lot of people believe that.

663
00:37:08,855 --> 00:37:10,855
And if you believe that, then my advice is, you know, good luck.

664
00:37:10,855 --> 00:37:13,855
Yeah, but you're not supposed to spend your Bitcoin, right?

665
00:37:13,855 --> 00:37:15,855
You just buy it and huddle.

666
00:37:15,855 --> 00:37:17,855
You never spend it.

667
00:37:18,855 --> 00:37:24,855
The higher the fees go, of course, the more people will try to do, like, batching
and they'll do, like, bar tab type things to minimize that.

668
00:37:24,855 --> 00:37:38,855
So my view is – and, you know, people can disagree, but my view is the fees will
always be, like – on the sidechain, they'll always be, like, $0.02 to $0.25 or
maybe $0.50.

669
00:37:38,855 --> 00:37:45,855
And on the main chain, they'll always be, like, $0.50 to maybe, like, $2 or $3 per
transaction.

670
00:37:45,855 --> 00:37:47,855
That's, like, the limit.

671
00:37:47,855 --> 00:37:55,855
And so the only way to actually get the total transaction fees up is to increase the
quantity of transactions.

672
00:37:55,855 --> 00:38:02,855
You bank a small amount each transaction and you need many transactions to move the
fee revenue up.

673
00:38:02,855 --> 00:38:05,855
A lot of people think – it's wishful thinking.

674
00:38:05,855 --> 00:38:08,855
A lot of people just think – oh, and they point to things.

675
00:38:08,855 --> 00:38:10,855
They point to these silly things.

676
00:38:10,855 --> 00:38:11,855
They say, look, there's a wire transfer.

677
00:38:11,855 --> 00:38:14,855
Someone spent $75 for a wire transfer.

678
00:38:14,855 --> 00:38:16,855
That's because they had no other option.

679
00:38:16,855 --> 00:38:19,855
But in the future, there will be WeChat Pay everywhere.

680
00:38:19,855 --> 00:38:20,855
There will be Venmo everywhere.

681
00:38:20,855 --> 00:38:25,855
And there will be not only Bitcoin but Bitcoin sidechains and altcoins and altcoin
sites.

682
00:38:25,855 --> 00:38:26,855
They'll all be everywhere.

683
00:38:26,855 --> 00:38:30,855
And we'll be looking at a price of $0 for those things.

684
00:38:30,855 --> 00:38:33,855
So no one will send a $75 wire.

685
00:38:34,855 --> 00:38:35,855
Eventually.

686
00:38:35,855 --> 00:38:39,855
People only do because the legacy banking system hasn't been replaced by crypto.

687
00:38:39,855 --> 00:38:47,855
But once we replace the legacy banking system with crypto, then it will be $75 to
send a wire transfer.

688
00:38:47,855 --> 00:38:50,855
It will be the same as everything else, just like when I send a Bitcoin transaction.

689
00:38:50,855 --> 00:38:55,855
It doesn't know if it's going to particular – it doesn't know if it's domestic or
international.

690
00:38:56,855 --> 00:39:01,855
I'm laughing right now because this might be your Vitalik moment when he said,

691
00:39:01,855 --> 00:39:05,855
the Internet of money should not cost more than $0.05 a transaction.

692
00:39:05,855 --> 00:39:06,855
That's kind of ridiculous.

693
00:39:06,855 --> 00:39:11,855
And this is your moment when you're saying, yeah, it's not going to cost more than
$2 a transaction.

694
00:39:11,855 --> 00:39:12,855
Yeah.

695
00:39:12,855 --> 00:39:19,855
Well, I mean, I'm open to – certainly during some times it will be congested and
then there will be the auction effect.

696
00:39:19,855 --> 00:39:22,855
But what has always happened is that it's temporary.

697
00:39:22,855 --> 00:39:25,855
It's also a free market, Paul, so there is no way to foresee.

698
00:39:25,855 --> 00:39:32,855
Maybe that's the miners who will be happy to have the minimum base layer fee for a
big block.

699
00:39:32,855 --> 00:39:35,855
It's true that the future is difficult to foresee.

700
00:39:35,855 --> 00:39:42,855
And it's also true that markets have prices that adjust and the prices reflect
information and they're hard to forecast.

701
00:39:42,855 --> 00:39:47,855
But just because something is happening in the future doesn't mean that we know
nothing about it.

702
00:39:47,855 --> 00:39:48,855
You know what I mean?

703
00:39:48,855 --> 00:40:02,855
Just about every single thing ever that we have ever bought, everything, has
actually plummeted in cost in terms of wage hour, time, price.

704
00:40:02,855 --> 00:40:05,855
Like how many days an average person has to work.

705
00:40:05,855 --> 00:40:24,855
So if you strip away the veil of money, the inflation, and you only look at the real
price, everything, whatever, copper, automobiles, computers, furniture, DNA
sequencing, everything has plummeted in cost.

706
00:40:24,855 --> 00:40:30,855
And transacting is certainly not going to be an exception to that rule.

707
00:40:30,855 --> 00:40:35,855
It will plummet faster than average.

708
00:40:35,855 --> 00:40:41,855
Okay, let me play another ad and then I'm going to read the most interesting tweet.

709
00:40:41,855 --> 00:40:43,855
If you ask me, that's the most interesting one.

710
00:40:43,855 --> 00:40:47,855
And then I'm going to the chat because I see that the comments are…

711
00:40:47,855 --> 00:40:53,855
Yes, but did we fully address the idea that what if a sidechain becomes too big?

712
00:40:53,855 --> 00:40:55,855
My view is that that's fine.

713
00:40:55,855 --> 00:40:57,855
And my view is that's a good thing.

714
00:40:57,855 --> 00:41:01,855
And my view is also that you should not compare that to what we never had the sidechain at all.

715
00:41:01,855 --> 00:41:08,855
You should say, what if there's something that's big and then there's an altcoin
that's much bigger and becomes dominant?

716
00:41:08,855 --> 00:41:14,855
Well, in that situation, you know, Bitcoin would be in peril and it would be in
danger of going to zero.

717
00:41:15,855 --> 00:41:23,855
I guess something else we should talk about, which is the modern myth that Bitcoin
is irreplaceable, which I hope that Bitcoin is irreplaceable and unkillable.

718
00:41:23,855 --> 00:41:25,855
I hope that that's the case.

719
00:41:25,855 --> 00:41:32,855
But I think it's extremely naive and foolish to bet the farm on that, which many
people are now doing.

720
00:41:32,855 --> 00:41:34,855
And they're doing it in the worst possible way.

721
00:41:34,855 --> 00:41:38,855
They are, in fact, the ones holding a gun to Bitcoin's head.

722
00:41:39,855 --> 00:41:44,855
It's night and day from what it used to be only a few years ago when everyone would
say Bitcoin is an experiment.

723
00:41:44,855 --> 00:41:45,855
It can always go to zero.

724
00:41:45,855 --> 00:41:47,855
Now we have these new people.

725
00:41:47,855 --> 00:42:01,855
A lot of it is, you know, I think we could tell an interesting story about dishonest
reasons why people might be pushing this irresponsible and reckless idea that
Bitcoin has already won.

726
00:42:01,855 --> 00:42:07,855
It's an idea that I don't think is shared by any of the technical elite or even most
people who have been around for a long time.

727
00:42:07,855 --> 00:42:09,855
But we can get into that.

728
00:42:09,855 --> 00:42:18,855
But I think the contrast is if something is more popular than we want it to be, what
you really want it to be is a BIP300 sidechain of Bitcoin.

729
00:42:18,855 --> 00:42:24,855
Because then it can never kill the Bitcoin layer one since it requires that in order
to exist.

730
00:42:25,855 --> 00:42:28,855
Just like a lightning requires a Bitcoin layer one to exist.

731
00:42:28,855 --> 00:42:32,855
And you don't want it to be an altcoin either.

732
00:42:32,855 --> 00:42:35,855
Kill the entire Bitcoin network, the whole coin, the whole project.

733
00:42:35,855 --> 00:42:37,855
If that thing is big, big enough to become dominant.

734
00:42:37,855 --> 00:42:38,855
So.

735
00:42:39,855 --> 00:42:41,855
So there you go.

736
00:42:42,855 --> 00:42:45,855
Yeah, let me play the ad and then we can get back to this.

737
00:42:46,855 --> 00:42:47,855
OK.

738
00:42:48,855 --> 00:42:55,855
Crypto Steel is the original Bitcoin cold storage backup, and it's been innovating
self-custody since 2013.

739
00:42:55,855 --> 00:43:01,855
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steel.

740
00:43:01,855 --> 00:43:05,855
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741
00:43:05,855 --> 00:43:11,855
These cold storage devices are made to resist house fires, extreme floods and
physical shocks.

742
00:43:11,855 --> 00:43:18,855
You can also use Crypto Steel to store your important passwords, BIP39 passphrase or
Nostr private keys.

743
00:43:18,855 --> 00:43:26,855
Buy your Crypto Steel today from CryptoSteel.com and use promo code BTCTKVR to get a
10 percent discount.

744
00:43:26,855 --> 00:43:30,855
Crypto Steel, secure your Bitcoin like an OG.

745
00:43:34,855 --> 00:43:36,855
Do you have a Crypto Steel, Paul?

746
00:43:36,855 --> 00:43:37,855
I'm mute.

747
00:43:37,855 --> 00:43:38,855
OK.

748
00:43:38,855 --> 00:43:39,855
You meet me every time.

749
00:43:39,855 --> 00:43:40,855
I don't complain.

750
00:43:40,855 --> 00:43:41,855
But I do have a Crypto Steel.

751
00:43:41,855 --> 00:43:42,855
I think someone gave me.

752
00:43:42,855 --> 00:43:43,855
I get all the names.

753
00:43:43,855 --> 00:43:46,855
I got all the names confused of the different steel because many people have done
this.

754
00:43:46,855 --> 00:43:48,855
But someone gave me one as a gift.

755
00:43:48,855 --> 00:43:50,855
Oh, probably Bill Foddle, because you're on there.

756
00:43:50,855 --> 00:43:51,855
Oh, yeah.

757
00:43:51,855 --> 00:43:52,855
I have a group.

758
00:43:52,855 --> 00:43:53,855
Yes.

759
00:43:53,855 --> 00:43:54,855
I have that one.

760
00:43:54,855 --> 00:43:55,855
And I think I also have a Crypto Steel.

761
00:43:55,855 --> 00:43:56,855
I think.

762
00:43:56,855 --> 00:43:57,855
OK.

763
00:43:57,855 --> 00:43:58,855
OK.

764
00:43:58,855 --> 00:43:59,855
I get all the names confused of the different steel because many people have done
this.

765
00:43:59,855 --> 00:44:00,855
But someone gave me.

766
00:44:00,855 --> 00:44:01,855
I get all the names confused of the different steel because many people have done
this.

767
00:44:01,855 --> 00:44:02,855
Oh, probably Bill Foddle, because you're on there.

768
00:44:02,855 --> 00:44:03,855
Oh, yeah.

769
00:44:03,855 --> 00:44:04,855
I have a group.

770
00:44:04,855 --> 00:44:05,855
Yes.

771
00:44:05,855 --> 00:44:06,855
I have that one.

772
00:44:06,855 --> 00:44:07,855
And I think I also have a Crypto Steel, I think.

773
00:44:07,855 --> 00:44:08,855
These are great.

774
00:44:08,855 --> 00:44:09,855
I think these are fine.

775
00:44:09,855 --> 00:44:14,455
You know, I'm not like, you know, I think I think it's I think it's interesting that

776
00:44:14,455 --> 00:44:19,815
the Bitcoin community has evolved in a way that it emphasizes wallets so much
because

777
00:44:19,815 --> 00:44:24,735
it's like the one of the few things you can do, which I think is unfortunate at the
same

778
00:44:24,735 --> 00:44:25,735
time.

779
00:44:25,815 --> 00:44:31,575
One of the reasons why I think I'm supportive of any idea or implementation for sidechains

780
00:44:31,575 --> 00:44:36,535
is that you can onboard people into storing their coins in cold storage.

781
00:44:36,535 --> 00:44:38,895
That's not something you can do with Lightning.

782
00:44:38,895 --> 00:44:41,295
That's not something you can really do with ARK.

783
00:44:41,295 --> 00:44:43,815
It's more like a workaround.

784
00:44:43,815 --> 00:44:49,855
And I think that it's a bit selfish the way some people think that we're going to
onboard

785
00:44:49,855 --> 00:44:54,455
the entire world into the Lightning network, but that limits their possibilities.

786
00:44:54,455 --> 00:44:58,095
I also don't like the ideas of Feddy and stuff.

787
00:44:58,095 --> 00:45:03,615
I mean, I understand why it exists, but at the same time, why would you want to get
the

788
00:45:03,615 --> 00:45:10,815
third world to onboard in an inferior, you know, way with a different experience?

789
00:45:10,815 --> 00:45:17,055
Like I want everyone to have the ability to do cold storage, to have all of these
cool

790
00:45:17,055 --> 00:45:19,855
tricks that we are doing right now.

791
00:45:19,855 --> 00:45:22,935
And probably sidechains are the best way to accomplish that.

792
00:45:23,535 --> 00:45:25,015
That's one of the issues with Lightning.

793
00:45:25,015 --> 00:45:26,815
You cannot do it.

794
00:45:26,815 --> 00:45:28,895
You cannot do cold storage with Lightning.

795
00:45:28,895 --> 00:45:30,115
It's fast to spend.

796
00:45:30,115 --> 00:45:35,255
It's great to receive payments with it, but it's not for long-term storage.

797
00:45:35,255 --> 00:45:42,895
Well, it also has a huge onboarding problem, which is each to onboard everyone to
the Lightning

798
00:45:42,895 --> 00:45:47,375
network, you need, everyone needs a, each person who joins needs to have a
multi-signature

799
00:45:47,375 --> 00:45:50,695
output on L1.

800
00:45:50,695 --> 00:45:54,815
Whereas in sidechains, you can just have one person send a bunch of coins over and

801
00:45:54,815 --> 00:45:58,935
then onboard people over there, which is sort of what you were saying.

802
00:45:58,935 --> 00:46:02,855
Now again, like it's not, I don't know if this, I'm not saying that the BIP300 side

803
00:46:02,855 --> 00:46:04,615
chain is the absolute perfect idea.

804
00:46:04,615 --> 00:46:07,095
And in fact, it might not work at all.

805
00:46:07,095 --> 00:46:15,615
But I do think it, it definitely has like, it's definitely has so many positive
attributes

806
00:46:15,615 --> 00:46:21,015
relative to what we currently, it's that it should certainly be tried, especially
because

807
00:46:21,015 --> 00:46:26,295
it has no downside or risk to the people who aren't using it.

808
00:46:26,295 --> 00:46:29,935
Other than of course, like, you know, our attention and stuff and, you know, code
review

809
00:46:29,935 --> 00:46:31,255
is hard and things like that.

810
00:46:31,255 --> 00:46:36,975
But I'm happy to do all that work or like, whatever, go through the process as I
have.

811
00:46:36,975 --> 00:46:43,295
Let's go to the comments section for a moment because, yeah, let's see, what have we
got?

812
00:46:43,295 --> 00:46:51,655
He says, BitGuin or BitGuin says, I am generally supportive of BIP300, but
interested to hear

813
00:46:51,655 --> 00:46:56,975
an expanded answer of greater fees for a sidechain, specifically if sidechains
were available

814
00:46:56,975 --> 00:47:01,655
today, an ETH copy would dominate BTC transaction fees.

815
00:47:01,655 --> 00:47:09,015
Then very few bodies could control the BTC miner revenue, for example, Circle, then
similar

816
00:47:09,095 --> 00:47:17,095
to ETH, Circle could control the direction of Bitcoin, for example, introduce
censorship in a hard fork.

817
00:47:17,095 --> 00:47:22,135
Nodes could follow an evil hard fork as they don't want to lose their USDC.

818
00:47:22,135 --> 00:47:24,695
This is BitGuin's comment.

819
00:47:24,695 --> 00:47:27,615
Well, I think that last part was a little bit of a non sequitur, wasn't it?

820
00:47:27,615 --> 00:47:35,175
I mean, so first with sidechains, we could have a copy of ETH for a long time now.

821
00:47:35,215 --> 00:47:37,175
ETH fees, the total U.S.

822
00:47:37,175 --> 00:47:44,615
dollar amount of fee paying customers has been much higher, much more than 10 times
that of BTC fees.

823
00:47:44,615 --> 00:47:51,895
So Ethereum for usage is more popular than BTC is.

824
00:47:51,895 --> 00:47:57,975
That, you know, you could you could say that usage is fake or those people are being
tricked or that's just because

825
00:47:57,975 --> 00:48:03,615
Ethereum block time is different and they don't care as much about decentralization
or like clients.

826
00:48:03,615 --> 00:48:12,175
You could say a long list of things, but at the end of the day, the fee paying
customers is a reliable indicator of actual.

827
00:48:14,095 --> 00:48:18,895
It's like sales, so it's kind of something real.

828
00:48:19,615 --> 00:48:27,655
And so, yeah, if we had that, then and we and if we were lucky enough to just steal
all of Ethereum's economic activity.

829
00:48:28,655 --> 00:48:35,935
One for one, I think we might actually steal more of it or there could be like
synergies or something.

830
00:48:35,935 --> 00:48:39,175
But assuming that we saw all that, then all those fees would be on Bitcoin.

831
00:48:39,175 --> 00:48:46,655
There'd be 10 times as much transaction fees coming from that than there would be
from the BTC layer one transaction fee,

832
00:48:47,775 --> 00:48:49,695
coinbase transaction or what have you.

833
00:48:50,015 --> 00:48:51,855
So all that's true.

834
00:48:53,455 --> 00:48:57,215
But then where it becomes false is it's like this idea that people start to have
control over things.

835
00:48:57,455 --> 00:49:05,775
So if you issue alts or if you issue anything, you issue ordinals on let's say you
issue ERC20 and the ETH L2.

836
00:49:09,455 --> 00:49:15,015
How does that end up giving you, you know, a hard fork control over Bitcoin L1?

837
00:49:16,335 --> 00:49:17,415
The answer is it does not.

838
00:49:17,855 --> 00:49:27,935
Well, there's another question that I think is important because Florin wants to
know, so sidechains are like another token that uses the Bitcoin mainchain.

839
00:49:27,975 --> 00:49:33,095
That's the question. But I think he means another blockchain that uses the Bitcoin
mainchain.

840
00:49:33,095 --> 00:49:42,655
It's very similar. Yes, there's another blockchain that uses the Bitcoin mainchain
and the token over there is Bitcoin BTC.

841
00:49:42,655 --> 00:49:55,895
So it's like sometimes it's like an ATM, I say, BIP300 is like an ATM and you have
the world of cash, maybe, and you have the world of the checking account and you go
to the ATM, you put $20 in.

842
00:49:57,567 --> 00:50:00,567
You lose the $20 bill, but you get $20 credited to your checking account.

843
00:50:00,567 --> 00:50:06,567
And then similarly, you go somewhere else, you go to a different ATM, you withdraw
the $20.

844
00:50:06,567 --> 00:50:12,567
You lose $20 out of your checking account and you gain a $20 bill.

845
00:50:12,567 --> 00:50:16,567
A lot of people seem very confused about this, which I attribute to just
misinformation.

846
00:50:16,567 --> 00:50:20,567
I think it is people out there just spreading stuff that they don't know.

847
00:50:20,567 --> 00:50:24,567
Because this is like, you know, square one. So I never would have thought it's very
bizarre.

848
00:50:24,567 --> 00:50:27,567
Everyone knew that everyone I talked to knew this at the beginning of the year.

849
00:50:27,567 --> 00:50:31,567
But then as the year has gone on, I get more and more basic questions sometimes.

850
00:50:31,567 --> 00:50:38,567
So which is, I guess, fine. But but that is the idea is like you take your big
point.

851
00:50:38,567 --> 00:50:46,567
You have like point one, three Bitcoin. And then you you put it through the ATM into
whatever.

852
00:50:47,567 --> 00:50:52,567
A Zcash sidechain, which is has no it has no ZEC.

853
00:50:52,567 --> 00:50:58,567
There's no ZEC. There's no Zcoin. But it does have the Zcash software.

854
00:50:58,567 --> 00:51:03,567
So what you get 13.13 Bitcoin over there and then you can use it over there.

855
00:51:03,567 --> 00:51:08,567
So there's literally no there's no new token. There's no anything.

856
00:51:08,567 --> 00:51:13,567
The whole point of having it pegged one to one is so that no one ever loses any
value.

857
00:51:13,567 --> 00:51:16,567
This is impossible to scam. No one gains or loses any value.

858
00:51:16,567 --> 00:51:22,567
So you can't have a scammer pumping the token and you can't have anyone losing their
money because it's pegged one to one.

859
00:51:22,567 --> 00:51:27,567
That's the whole point is to hope this is for the same reason why you don't have
checking account money.

860
00:51:27,567 --> 00:51:34,567
It doesn't like float against, you know, the cash that you get in an ATM.

861
00:51:34,567 --> 00:51:40,567
They exchange one to one at par. So, yeah, I don't know.

862
00:51:40,567 --> 00:51:49,567
But as far as I can tell, Drivechains are not decentralized, but they can be
permissionless, meaning that any group of miners can set up their own Drivechain.

863
00:51:49,567 --> 00:51:54,567
Is this correct? Well, that's a good question. I mean, first of all, I will answer
that question.

864
00:51:54,567 --> 00:52:03,567
But please let me know if you think that I've actually answered these people's
questions or if people in the comments think that didn't answer my question.

865
00:52:03,567 --> 00:52:05,567
Because I don't really know at this point. I've been doing this for so long.

866
00:52:05,567 --> 00:52:10,567
I don't really know, like, what are people confused about or what what what does
answer their question?

867
00:52:10,567 --> 00:52:24,567
But to answer your question, there's something important about the way I think about
this, which is that everything relies, everything that touches proof of work relies
on the miners to some extent.

868
00:52:24,567 --> 00:52:30,567
So even the Lightning Network requires that the justice transaction not be censored.

869
00:52:30,567 --> 00:52:38,567
That is absolutely crucial. If the justice transaction is censored from the
blockchain, then anyone could just steal from the Lightning Network.

870
00:52:38,567 --> 00:52:43,567
You steal from the channels. You move the channel to one extreme and another extreme
and you broadcast the old state.

871
00:52:43,567 --> 00:52:49,567
You are never caught. You leave with the money. And after having spent all of it,
you double spend.

872
00:52:50,567 --> 00:53:08,567
So while it's true that those who use a BIP300 sidechain must trust miners more,
it's almost not really the case that this is like if 51 percent is dead set against
you.

873
00:53:09,567 --> 00:53:18,567
They could block. You could have a ZK-SNARK chain that is provably that miners can't
steal from.

874
00:53:18,567 --> 00:53:25,567
But the withdrawal transaction still has to make it into L1. Miners can just censor
that and hold all the money hostage.

875
00:53:25,567 --> 00:53:31,567
The miners can censor any transaction and hold it hostage between the sender and
receiver.

876
00:53:32,567 --> 00:53:39,567
Miners can hold liquid to withdrawal hostage. So the federated model is the 51
percent model.

877
00:53:39,567 --> 00:53:44,567
The 51 percent assumption is threaded into every single thing.

878
00:53:44,567 --> 00:53:48,567
And the only way to get rid of it is to get rid of proof of work, which is not a
good idea.

879
00:53:48,567 --> 00:53:51,567
Proof of work is a good thing. We like proof of work.

880
00:53:52,567 --> 00:54:02,567
So it's true that BIP300 has more of a risk. Didn't we say that earlier? It's more
of a risk.

881
00:54:02,567 --> 00:54:09,567
But the people who want the new feature, they want larger blocks or they want
ZK-SNARKs or they want whatever it is.

882
00:54:09,567 --> 00:54:15,567
Those people, they don't have another option.

883
00:54:16,567 --> 00:54:23,567
So this improves their bad. The only option they have is to buy an altcoin, which is
not a good option.

884
00:54:23,567 --> 00:54:37,567
But what I'm trying to say also is that the thing that we assume, this 51 percent
miner honesty assumption, is like that's also already assumed in Bitcoin.

885
00:54:37,567 --> 00:54:41,567
It's true in Bitcoin it's not quite the same, but in Drivechain it's not quite the
same either.

886
00:54:41,567 --> 00:54:44,567
The 51 percent miners can't just steal the coins the next moment.

887
00:54:44,567 --> 00:54:47,567
They have to steal them slowly over six months.

888
00:54:47,567 --> 00:54:53,567
So they have to like, you know, there's this prison metaphor that people don't like,
but I like it.

889
00:54:53,567 --> 00:55:03,567
Because it's like you have this, it's just this one event, which every six months,
which is which group of people is going to leave the prison, which bus or something.

890
00:55:03,567 --> 00:55:09,567
And that's the only thing that the miners can screw up is they send the wrong bus
out.

891
00:55:09,567 --> 00:55:16,567
And the bus is identified by one hash and the full node has the right hash and layer
one BTC sees the hash.

892
00:55:16,567 --> 00:55:20,567
They just have to match. And it takes, it's very slow and transparent.

893
00:55:20,567 --> 00:55:36,567
So it's not like, you know, the additional honesty hash rate L1 miner assumption in
BIP300 is very, very, very tame.

894
00:55:36,567 --> 00:55:41,567
So I don't know. I mean, I hope I'm answering people's questions. Is this like
rambling and confusing or what?

895
00:55:41,567 --> 00:55:44,567
A bit, but let me ask you something more specific.

896
00:55:44,567 --> 00:55:50,567
Currently, we have the Liquid sidechain and we also have Rootstock, which has been
rebranded to RSK.

897
00:55:50,567 --> 00:55:54,567
Rootstock aims to basically be a backup for Ethereum.

898
00:55:54,567 --> 00:56:03,567
If something goes wrong with Ethereum, you can port some contracts to that different
sidechain, which is being merged mined already by about the hash rate.

899
00:56:03,567 --> 00:56:08,567
So we already have merged mining, but there's not much action on Rootstock.

900
00:56:08,567 --> 00:56:12,567
So there are two layers to my question. No pun intended.

901
00:56:12,567 --> 00:56:17,567
But first of all, we have the differences between Drivechains and Rootstock and
Liquid.

902
00:56:17,567 --> 00:56:23,567
And then you have this question of Liquid and RSK obviously failed to get traction.

903
00:56:23,567 --> 00:56:26,567
Why do you think that Drivechains are going to be different?

904
00:56:26,567 --> 00:56:32,567
Well, it's true that they may not be, but I think we have quite a few reasons to
think that they'd be pretty different.

905
00:56:32,567 --> 00:56:38,567
I mean, so Liquid and RSK are both federated.

906
00:56:38,567 --> 00:56:41,567
Liquid was not even open source until recently.

907
00:56:41,567 --> 00:56:50,567
Liquid had a bug where they didn't even realize that anyone from Blockstream could
just withdraw all the money at any time for months.

908
00:56:50,567 --> 00:56:55,567
And there was this kind of like weird cover up about it that James Prestwich looked
into.

909
00:56:55,567 --> 00:57:01,567
On Liquid, all the transaction fees go to a wallet controlled by Blockstream.

910
00:57:01,567 --> 00:57:12,567
The federated model relies on its setup so that it's based on the reputation of the
people who are holding the keys.

911
00:57:12,567 --> 00:57:19,567
So on L1, it's just an 11 of 15 multisig, even though it wasn't actually that in
practice because of a bug.

912
00:57:19,567 --> 00:57:26,567
But it's 11 of 15 multisig and no one knows who these 15 people are.

913
00:57:26,567 --> 00:57:36,567
No one knows if they really are the only ones with the keys or if the keys were just
generated by one guy and then given away to 15 people, which would make the security
completely worthless.

914
00:57:36,567 --> 00:57:39,567
The federation people don't get anything.

915
00:57:39,567 --> 00:57:45,567
They don't get money in return for doing the job.

916
00:57:45,567 --> 00:57:47,567
So there's an incentive misalignment.

917
00:57:47,567 --> 00:57:49,567
So you have unknown people.

918
00:57:49,567 --> 00:57:51,567
They're crucial to the whole thing.

919
00:57:51,567 --> 00:57:52,567
They can rug the system.

920
00:57:52,567 --> 00:57:58,567
If too much coin goes into the system, they can rug this system.

921
00:57:58,567 --> 00:58:02,567
And so whereas with BIP300, it's all the same group all the time.

922
00:58:02,567 --> 00:58:04,567
The miners drop, add the sidechains.

923
00:58:04,567 --> 00:58:06,567
The miners do the withdrawals.

924
00:58:06,567 --> 00:58:08,567
The miners collect the transaction fees.

925
00:58:08,567 --> 00:58:09,567
So it's the same group.

926
00:58:09,567 --> 00:58:14,567
And as the transaction fee, as the sidechain becomes more popular, it has more coins
and more transaction fees.

927
00:58:14,567 --> 00:58:19,567
So it's all aligned versus unaligned.

928
00:58:19,567 --> 00:58:21,567
So, I mean, those are some reasons.

929
00:58:21,567 --> 00:58:29,567
RSK, I think that RSK has some mysterious decisions.

930
00:58:29,567 --> 00:58:45,567
But I think that people in ETH understand that the goal for BIP300 is to emulate all
the altcoins and kind of break their spirit, so to speak, and say we can copy
anything that's out there.

931
00:58:45,567 --> 00:58:47,567
Now, currently, RSK doesn't do that.

932
00:58:47,567 --> 00:58:58,567
RSK has their own version of Ethereum that is not exactly the same as Ether as the
BIP300 sidechain we have is the exact copy of the latest Ethereum full node.

933
00:58:59,567 --> 00:59:16,567
And what people who use Ethereum are hoping is they can buy in at a lower market
cap, number two, and get the system to work and then have Ethereum flip in BTC.

934
00:59:16,567 --> 00:59:20,567
So they don't want to switch to RSK.

935
00:59:20,567 --> 00:59:23,567
Those people won't switch to RSK ever.

936
00:59:23,567 --> 00:59:35,567
But if we copy everything and we just make it clear that no other sidechain has a
future, then it's not so much that people will come back, it's so much they'll have
no choice.

937
00:59:35,567 --> 00:59:42,567
It'll be the ironically true version of the fake Bitcoin fantasy of people paying
high transaction fees.

938
00:59:42,567 --> 00:59:45,567
They will come back because there's just no future on any other chain.

939
00:59:45,567 --> 00:59:49,567
I don't know. Does that make sense or not?

940
00:59:49,567 --> 00:59:50,567
No, not really.

941
00:59:50,567 --> 01:00:00,567
I mean, you did not really explain why a Drivechain with Ethereum scripting language
would be any different in terms of success as opposed to RSK.

942
01:00:00,567 --> 01:00:01,567
It's the whole ecosystem.

943
01:00:01,567 --> 01:00:03,567
Okay, so RSK is federated.

944
01:00:03,567 --> 01:00:09,567
RSK is not the exact same as ETH, whereas the goal is to copy it exactly.

945
01:00:09,567 --> 01:00:12,567
But you can use the exact same flippening argument.

946
01:00:12,567 --> 01:00:14,567
Which flippening argument?

947
01:00:15,567 --> 01:00:22,567
No, because RSK does not inspire fear and dread in Ethereum people.

948
01:00:24,567 --> 01:00:26,567
Because it's not a full idea.

949
01:00:26,567 --> 01:00:32,567
Each federation, it's not a reusable process that you can use to copy anything.

950
01:00:32,567 --> 01:00:38,567
So BIP300 is like an ATM, but it's also like a kind of Xerox machine.

951
01:00:38,567 --> 01:00:42,567
You could copy any altcoin or any piece of software you could activate.

952
01:00:42,567 --> 01:00:47,567
But with the federation, it's one event.

953
01:00:47,567 --> 01:00:51,567
You pick the people who do the federation and you pick what they'll be doing.

954
01:00:53,567 --> 01:00:54,567
Does this make sense at all?

955
01:00:54,567 --> 01:00:57,567
BIP300 is a decentralized process.

956
01:01:05,567 --> 01:01:07,567
It's like a long division or something.

957
01:01:07,567 --> 01:01:11,567
It's something you would do to a sidechain to turn it into...

958
01:01:11,567 --> 01:01:16,567
Excuse me, it's something you do to altcoin to turn it into a full node.

959
01:01:16,567 --> 01:01:19,567
A sidechain full node on BTC.

960
01:01:20,567 --> 01:01:23,567
I mean, that makes sense, but you can apply the exact same principle.

961
01:01:23,567 --> 01:01:29,567
They, meaning Ethereum, had 72 million coins that were pre-mined.

962
01:01:29,567 --> 01:01:31,567
Some of the early investors still have them.

963
01:01:31,567 --> 01:01:37,567
Some of them are still motivated to pump the token and basically flip on Bitcoin.

964
01:01:38,567 --> 01:01:41,567
And they have this move fast and break things mentality

965
01:01:41,567 --> 01:01:45,567
because they already have a precedent in terms of breaking immutability.

966
01:01:45,567 --> 01:01:47,567
So they don't care too much about that.

967
01:01:47,567 --> 01:01:49,567
They can roll back whenever they want.

968
01:01:49,567 --> 01:01:53,567
Their purpose is just to push these experiments for financial stuff.

969
01:01:53,567 --> 01:01:57,567
I think Ethereum is more fintech than it is cyberpunk,

970
01:01:57,567 --> 01:02:02,567
but it also has some cool stuff that you could find in cyberpunk literature.

971
01:02:02,567 --> 01:02:05,567
But why would they want to come to Drivechains?

972
01:02:05,567 --> 01:02:08,567
Because that's the point. It's not the issuer.

973
01:02:08,567 --> 01:02:10,567
It's the user's demand.

974
01:02:10,567 --> 01:02:11,567
So it's not the issuer.

975
01:02:11,567 --> 01:02:15,567
The issuer always prefers to launch an altcoin and just sell the altcoin

976
01:02:15,567 --> 01:02:17,567
and extract free money from that.

977
01:02:17,567 --> 01:02:19,567
It's about whether or not there's a buyer.

978
01:02:21,567 --> 01:02:25,567
And if we set the precedent that Bitcoin will do everything,

979
01:02:25,567 --> 01:02:31,567
even things that most Bitcoiners don't like, which is absolutely essential,

980
01:02:32,567 --> 01:02:34,567
we have to say we don't judge.

981
01:02:34,567 --> 01:02:38,567
Even if only 2% of the people want to do EVM,

982
01:02:38,567 --> 01:02:41,567
those two people go off on their own sidechain and they do that thing.

983
01:02:41,567 --> 01:02:44,567
So it's about minority rights in a way.

984
01:02:45,567 --> 01:02:49,567
So if we set this big precedent, then there's no demand for altcoins.

985
01:02:49,567 --> 01:02:51,567
But it has nothing to do with the issuers or the suppliers.

986
01:02:51,567 --> 01:02:56,567
Those people always hope, of course, that they can get, they can sell,

987
01:02:56,567 --> 01:02:59,567
they can create, conjure the token out of thin air.

988
01:03:00,567 --> 01:03:04,567
And then sell it for, conjure it for free and then sell it,

989
01:03:04,567 --> 01:03:06,567
just dump it on retail.

990
01:03:07,567 --> 01:03:08,567
But it has nothing to do with that.

991
01:03:08,567 --> 01:03:10,567
It's the demand side.

992
01:03:10,567 --> 01:03:14,567
There's only one way of really educating the masses

993
01:03:14,567 --> 01:03:16,567
on why they should not buy Ethereum.

994
01:03:16,567 --> 01:03:20,567
And that is if all those people are familiar enough with Bitcoin

995
01:03:20,567 --> 01:03:24,567
to know that it has an Ethereum sidechain that is a copy of Ethereum.

996
01:03:25,567 --> 01:03:29,567
So I realize I'm not explaining this very well,

997
01:03:29,567 --> 01:03:33,567
but it's an ecological thing.

998
01:03:33,567 --> 01:03:36,567
It's like, is there space for Ethereum?

999
01:03:36,567 --> 01:03:42,567
Well, as long as Bitcoin has decided that there's things it won't do,

1000
01:03:42,567 --> 01:03:46,567
then there's always hope for an altcoin to replace Bitcoin.

1001
01:03:46,567 --> 01:03:48,567
But if we take that hope away,

1002
01:03:48,567 --> 01:03:50,567
then all the altcoins will just be dead, including Ethereum.

1003
01:03:50,567 --> 01:03:53,567
And then since there's an X amount of demand

1004
01:03:53,567 --> 01:03:56,567
for whatever silly thing Ethereum is doing,

1005
01:03:57,567 --> 01:04:00,567
X amount of demand for whatever, whatever you want to call it,

1006
01:04:00,567 --> 01:04:01,567
DeFi, whatever,

1007
01:04:01,567 --> 01:04:07,567
then since Bitcoin will be the only vessel that can receive that,

1008
01:04:07,567 --> 01:04:10,567
then it will all come to BTC.

1009
01:04:10,567 --> 01:04:12,567
But it's not as though, it certainly is not the case

1010
01:04:12,567 --> 01:04:14,567
that on day one we activate Drivechain,

1011
01:04:14,567 --> 01:04:16,567
then day two we activate the EVM and then everyone moves over.

1012
01:04:16,567 --> 01:04:18,567
That's certainly not going to happen.

1013
01:04:19,567 --> 01:04:21,567
But who do you think is going to move?

1014
01:04:21,567 --> 01:04:25,567
Is it going to be exchanges that currently have stuff on Ethereum,

1015
01:04:25,567 --> 01:04:27,567
contracts and tokens and stuff like that?

1016
01:04:27,567 --> 01:04:31,567
Because I see that there's this self-righteous,

1017
01:04:31,567 --> 01:04:34,567
legal abiding citizen argument that people present

1018
01:04:34,567 --> 01:04:37,567
and they say, we don't want the scammers to come to Bitcoin.

1019
01:04:37,567 --> 01:04:39,567
It's fine when they do stuff on Ethereum

1020
01:04:39,567 --> 01:04:42,567
because they have legal defense and they have PR and whatever.

1021
01:04:42,567 --> 01:04:45,567
But we want Bitcoin to have this clean image

1022
01:04:45,567 --> 01:04:46,567
that there are no scammers here,

1023
01:04:46,567 --> 01:04:48,567
which is, of course, naive.

1024
01:04:48,567 --> 01:04:50,567
You understand it's ridiculous.

1025
01:04:50,567 --> 01:04:53,567
The media has been saying bad things about Bitcoin forever

1026
01:04:53,567 --> 01:04:55,567
and tying bad things to us forever.

1027
01:04:55,567 --> 01:05:01,567
And we explicitly have numerous scams all the time on BTC,

1028
01:05:01,567 --> 01:05:03,567
as I'm sure you know.

1029
01:05:03,567 --> 01:05:05,567
Yeah, but that's not the point.

1030
01:05:05,567 --> 01:05:08,567
People are concerned that the government is going to come for Bitcoin

1031
01:05:08,567 --> 01:05:12,567
and they accept shit coins as this shield around Bitcoin

1032
01:05:12,567 --> 01:05:14,567
because they're the first ones to go to jail, right?

1033
01:05:14,567 --> 01:05:15,567
The shit coiners.

1034
01:05:15,567 --> 01:05:18,567
And Bitcoiners can just tweet all day long

1035
01:05:18,567 --> 01:05:21,567
and virtue signal about being the pure ones.

1036
01:05:21,567 --> 01:05:23,567
I think that is a double-edged sword, though,

1037
01:05:23,567 --> 01:05:27,567
because it says, if we're big, then we'll get the attention.

1038
01:05:27,567 --> 01:05:30,567
If we're serious about winning and we're the only game in town

1039
01:05:30,567 --> 01:05:34,567
and we're the biggest and the best and we're conquering the world,

1040
01:05:34,567 --> 01:05:36,567
then we will get the negative attention.

1041
01:05:36,567 --> 01:05:38,567
But yeah, if there's a bunch of other stuff,

1042
01:05:38,567 --> 01:05:41,567
it's a buffer and we want to be small,

1043
01:05:41,567 --> 01:05:43,567
but that is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

1044
01:05:43,567 --> 01:05:44,567
We don't want to be small.

1045
01:05:44,567 --> 01:05:46,567
We want to take over the world.

1046
01:05:49,567 --> 01:05:55,567
There's a comment in the chat by Boyacaxa.

1047
01:05:55,567 --> 01:05:57,567
I'm not sure how you pronounce this.

1048
01:05:57,567 --> 01:05:59,567
But he says, Drivechains have a problem.

1049
01:05:59,567 --> 01:06:03,567
I want a two-way peg as well, but not one done by a vote.

1050
01:06:03,567 --> 01:06:05,567
What the fuck is that mess?

1051
01:06:05,567 --> 01:06:07,567
It's not Bitcoin, that's for sure.

1052
01:06:08,567 --> 01:06:09,567
Okay.

1053
01:06:09,567 --> 01:06:11,567
Well, I mean, this is, again, like silly people.

1054
01:06:11,567 --> 01:06:12,567
They don't know what they're talking about.

1055
01:06:12,567 --> 01:06:14,567
But, I mean, I'm happy to answer the question.

1056
01:06:14,567 --> 01:06:17,567
I don't mean to be rude to the person who asked the question.

1057
01:06:17,567 --> 01:06:21,567
But, you know, like the problem with voting is you have this,

1058
01:06:21,567 --> 01:06:23,567
like, mathematical certainty that once you have,

1059
01:06:23,567 --> 01:06:25,567
I think it's like eight or even nine people,

1060
01:06:25,567 --> 01:06:26,567
your vote is very unlikely.

1061
01:06:26,567 --> 01:06:28,567
You vote between, like, two things.

1062
01:06:28,567 --> 01:06:30,567
Your vote's very unlikely to affect the outcome.

1063
01:06:31,567 --> 01:06:34,567
So that's the problem with voting.

1064
01:06:34,567 --> 01:06:36,567
So people don't research their vote because they think,

1065
01:06:36,567 --> 01:06:38,567
I'm not going to cast the pivotal vote.

1066
01:06:38,567 --> 01:06:40,567
So it doesn't matter.

1067
01:06:41,567 --> 01:06:44,567
And when you have, like, a country like America,

1068
01:06:44,567 --> 01:06:46,567
where there's, like, 115 million registered voters

1069
01:06:46,567 --> 01:06:48,567
and there's this convoluted process,

1070
01:06:48,567 --> 01:06:49,567
most people's vote doesn't matter.

1071
01:06:49,567 --> 01:06:51,567
So that's the problem with voting.

1072
01:06:51,567 --> 01:06:54,567
So that person has an emotional reaction to the word vote.

1073
01:06:54,567 --> 01:06:58,567
But what really happens in BIFF 300 is more like a confirmation.

1074
01:06:58,567 --> 01:07:02,567
You see, when you have blocks that are built on the previous block,

1075
01:07:02,567 --> 01:07:05,567
it's kind of like voting for which tip to extend.

1076
01:07:05,567 --> 01:07:09,567
When you vote on one, you vote on all the others.

1077
01:07:09,567 --> 01:07:12,567
And what BIFF 300 does is more like a confirmation.

1078
01:07:12,567 --> 01:07:15,567
It's like a super confirmation of the withdrawal.

1079
01:07:15,567 --> 01:07:17,567
And if the withdrawal gets enough confirmations,

1080
01:07:17,567 --> 01:07:19,567
then it goes through.

1081
01:07:19,567 --> 01:07:20,567
That's kind of like what it does.

1082
01:07:20,567 --> 01:07:24,567
And it's especially unlike voting because in a vote,

1083
01:07:24,567 --> 01:07:28,567
you have two compelling options and you have people dragging the world

1084
01:07:28,567 --> 01:07:32,567
in two equal and opposite directions and also in the status direction

1085
01:07:32,567 --> 01:07:37,567
that benefits the two, you know, the two government parties.

1086
01:07:38,567 --> 01:07:41,567
In this, there is no such thing remotely in the slightest.

1087
01:07:41,567 --> 01:07:44,567
The sidechain node calculates the correct hash.

1088
01:07:44,567 --> 01:07:46,567
It does this automatically for everyone.

1089
01:07:46,567 --> 01:07:49,567
And then it's going to yell the hash in every direction.

1090
01:07:49,567 --> 01:07:52,567
It's going to put the hash in the SPV client of the sidechain node.

1091
01:07:52,567 --> 01:07:54,567
It's going to be in every sidechain header.

1092
01:07:54,567 --> 01:07:55,567
It's very easy to find.

1093
01:07:55,567 --> 01:07:58,567
Everyone can find it.

1094
01:07:58,567 --> 01:08:01,567
And so if there's one objectively correct answer,

1095
01:08:01,567 --> 01:08:05,567
that is not only one answer that is objectively correct,

1096
01:08:05,567 --> 01:08:08,567
but it's very, very easy for anyone to discover at any time.

1097
01:08:08,567 --> 01:08:12,567
So it's like if everyone knew, it would be like as if, you know,

1098
01:08:12,567 --> 01:08:15,567
in the United States, we have Republican and Democrat.

1099
01:08:15,567 --> 01:08:18,567
It would be as if every three months,

1100
01:08:18,567 --> 01:08:26,567
we put a gigantic sign up in Times Square that said either R or D.

1101
01:08:26,567 --> 01:08:32,567
And then you had to have some people whose job it was,

1102
01:08:32,567 --> 01:08:35,567
they would earn more money as long as the R and D's matched.

1103
01:08:35,567 --> 01:08:39,567
Their job was to set the R and the D like whatever,

1104
01:08:39,567 --> 01:08:43,567
like in Midtown or whatever, in downtown.

1105
01:08:43,567 --> 01:08:44,567
It doesn't really matter.

1106
01:08:44,567 --> 01:08:47,567
The point is it's like it's very easy to find the right answer.

1107
01:08:47,567 --> 01:08:51,567
No one is honestly benefiting from it being distorted at all,

1108
01:08:51,567 --> 01:08:53,567
especially because it's a hash.

1109
01:08:53,567 --> 01:08:54,567
So you can't like change it a little bit.

1110
01:08:54,567 --> 01:08:58,567
It either is completely different or it's completely the same.

1111
01:08:58,567 --> 01:09:03,567
And so it's not like a vote with lots of different people

1112
01:09:03,567 --> 01:09:05,567
and lots of different opinions at all.

1113
01:09:05,567 --> 01:09:07,567
It's like a confirmation.

1114
01:09:07,567 --> 01:09:14,567
It's no more a vote than is Satoshi using the longest chain rule,

1115
01:09:14,567 --> 01:09:15,567
if that's a vote.

1116
01:09:15,567 --> 01:09:19,567
And Satoshi has that line in the white paper, one CPU, one vote.

1117
01:09:19,567 --> 01:09:22,567
So he uses it kind of as a metaphor, as do I.

1118
01:09:22,567 --> 01:09:24,567
And I use it as this upvote, downvote metaphor

1119
01:09:24,567 --> 01:09:28,567
because I was thinking of a Reddit score back in 2015 when I designed it.

1120
01:09:28,567 --> 01:09:33,567
But it is not in any sense like a political vote.

1121
01:09:33,567 --> 01:09:34,567
There's one right answer.

1122
01:09:34,567 --> 01:09:35,567
Everyone can find the right answer,

1123
01:09:35,567 --> 01:09:38,567
and then it's just whether or not the hash that matches that

1124
01:09:38,567 --> 01:09:41,567
gets 13,000 upvotes or not.

1125
01:09:41,567 --> 01:09:45,567
And the word vote is, you know, it triggers people,

1126
01:09:45,567 --> 01:09:48,567
and I understand that, and I apologize for that.

1127
01:09:48,567 --> 01:09:49,567
But I don't know.

1128
01:09:49,567 --> 01:09:50,567
Maybe that person doesn't –

1129
01:09:50,567 --> 01:09:53,567
I would love to know if that person feels that I've answered their question

1130
01:09:53,567 --> 01:09:58,567
because I really feel like the sense in which BF300 uses the word vote

1131
01:09:58,567 --> 01:10:05,567
is not whatever they're thinking by a mile.

1132
01:10:05,567 --> 01:10:06,567
So I don't know.

1133
01:10:06,567 --> 01:10:07,567
Does that make sense to you, Vlad?

1134
01:10:07,567 --> 01:10:09,567
Does it make any sense or no?

1135
01:10:09,567 --> 01:10:11,567
I can tell you that you've got to work on your metaphors,

1136
01:10:11,567 --> 01:10:14,567
but otherwise it does make sense.

1137
01:10:14,567 --> 01:10:18,567
And I wish – so is there anything specific written on this topic?

1138
01:10:18,567 --> 01:10:20,567
I know that you have a company right now.

1139
01:10:20,567 --> 01:10:22,567
You have, like, a content producing team.

1140
01:10:22,567 --> 01:10:27,567
Maybe you should write a blog post about what voting means in Drivechains.

1141
01:10:27,567 --> 01:10:29,567
Yeah, I could.

1142
01:10:29,567 --> 01:10:32,567
Not you yourself, but someone from the team.

1143
01:10:32,567 --> 01:10:33,567
Yeah, maybe.

1144
01:10:33,567 --> 01:10:36,567
We have on LayerTwoLabs.com we have, like, infographics,

1145
01:10:36,567 --> 01:10:38,567
which I think are kind of nice.

1146
01:10:38,567 --> 01:10:40,567
And then you could read the BIP text.

1147
01:10:40,567 --> 01:10:44,567
And also one thing that was great, and we're working on this all the time,

1148
01:10:44,567 --> 01:10:47,567
is the software gets easier and easier to use.

1149
01:10:47,567 --> 01:10:48,567
Now you can download the software,

1150
01:10:48,567 --> 01:10:51,567
and it will all run in reg test mode with play money,

1151
01:10:51,567 --> 01:10:54,567
with just blocks just being found randomly.

1152
01:10:54,567 --> 01:11:02,567
And if you just – if you run that software,

1153
01:11:02,567 --> 01:11:04,567
then you'll see for yourself exactly what happens,

1154
01:11:04,567 --> 01:11:08,567
and you'll also see – you'll see the sidechain in the ribbon.

1155
01:11:08,567 --> 01:11:12,567
It will pop up the – what the correct hash is,

1156
01:11:12,567 --> 01:11:15,567
and then you'll see what's happening on L1.

1157
01:11:15,567 --> 01:11:18,567
You'll see what it takes for there to be –

1158
01:11:18,567 --> 01:11:20,567
like it's not voting between two things.

1159
01:11:20,567 --> 01:11:23,567
There's only one thing that's possibly correct.

1160
01:11:23,567 --> 01:11:28,567
And when the people introduce numerous incorrect hashes to try

1161
01:11:28,567 --> 01:11:32,567
and steal the money, they will –

1162
01:11:32,567 --> 01:11:35,567
they're only diluting the vote amongst themselves.

1163
01:11:35,567 --> 01:11:39,567
It's like all the dishonest people are splitting the vote amongst themselves.

1164
01:11:39,567 --> 01:11:42,567
So it's – I don't know.

1165
01:11:42,567 --> 01:11:49,567
I'm not sure if it's – if that explanation was comprehensible,

1166
01:11:49,567 --> 01:11:51,567
but I hope that it was.

1167
01:11:51,567 --> 01:11:58,567
Well, what's the – explain it to me like I'm five version of Drivechains.

1168
01:11:58,567 --> 01:12:01,567
Okay. That's a good – maybe I should –

1169
01:12:01,567 --> 01:12:04,567
maybe I should get Chad GPT to help me with that one.

1170
01:12:04,567 --> 01:12:11,567
I would say it is – it sounds like I'm five.

1171
01:12:11,567 --> 01:12:12,567
I don't know.

1172
01:12:12,567 --> 01:12:18,567
I would say like maybe – where are your parents?

1173
01:12:18,567 --> 01:12:20,567
No, I'm just kidding.

1174
01:12:20,567 --> 01:12:21,567
Well, okay.

1175
01:12:21,567 --> 01:12:23,567
What does this five-year-old already know about Bitcoin?

1176
01:12:23,567 --> 01:12:25,567
Is that a fair question?

1177
01:12:25,567 --> 01:12:26,567
Do they use Bitcoin or what?

1178
01:12:26,567 --> 01:12:28,567
I would say if it was really a five-year-old,

1179
01:12:28,567 --> 01:12:32,567
I would say it's altcoins but Bitcoin only.

1180
01:12:32,567 --> 01:12:34,567
I would say something like that.

1181
01:12:34,567 --> 01:12:37,567
So I would not explain all this minutia of how the peg works.

1182
01:12:37,567 --> 01:12:38,567
You know what I mean?

1183
01:12:38,567 --> 01:12:39,567
Is that fair or no?

1184
01:12:39,567 --> 01:12:43,567
I would say this is like you use – it's like you have an altcoin,

1185
01:12:43,567 --> 01:12:45,567
but you have no coin.

1186
01:12:45,567 --> 01:12:48,567
You only have BTC.

1187
01:12:48,567 --> 01:12:50,567
So you have whatever.

1188
01:12:50,567 --> 01:12:56,567
You have Ethereum's full node software, but there's no ether.

1189
01:12:56,567 --> 01:12:58,567
You have Monero's ring signatures.

1190
01:12:58,567 --> 01:13:06,567
You have Monero's – Monero addresses, Monero privacy, Monero bulletproofs,

1191
01:13:06,567 --> 01:13:07,567
but there's no actual coin.

1192
01:13:07,567 --> 01:13:09,567
You just send Bitcoin there.

1193
01:13:09,567 --> 01:13:12,567
So I don't think that I would explain like the minutia of the withdrawal

1194
01:13:12,567 --> 01:13:16,567
to a five-year-old, but maybe if they already knew about SPV proofs

1195
01:13:16,567 --> 01:13:23,567
or if they knew about Electrum or something, maybe I would give it a try.

1196
01:13:23,567 --> 01:13:28,567
So Boya Cox insists that there must be a better way to do two-way peg

1197
01:13:28,567 --> 01:13:32,567
than the vote mechanism.

1198
01:13:32,567 --> 01:13:35,567
Well, again, I think the vote mechanism isn't so bad.

1199
01:13:35,567 --> 01:13:38,567
But what exactly are they worried about, I would wonder?

1200
01:13:38,567 --> 01:13:44,567
Are they worried that the miners will steal the coins?

1201
01:13:44,567 --> 01:13:47,567
Because it's kind of hard.

1202
01:13:47,567 --> 01:13:50,567
It's like they have to do the wrong thing for a long time,

1203
01:13:50,567 --> 01:13:53,567
many months of having the hash be wrong.

1204
01:13:53,567 --> 01:13:58,567
It is like a prison where everyone can see you get buzzed through all these gates,

1205
01:13:58,567 --> 01:14:00,567
gate after gate after gate after gate.

1206
01:14:00,567 --> 01:14:04,567
Again, the vote thing is more of a confirmation.

1207
01:14:04,567 --> 01:14:08,567
So what they say, it's like I think a lot of people,

1208
01:14:08,567 --> 01:14:11,567
they have a problem with BIP300, but if you really dig down,

1209
01:14:11,567 --> 01:14:14,567
they kind of have like a problem with just proof of work itself,

1210
01:14:14,567 --> 01:14:16,567
which I don't think they intend to have that at all,

1211
01:14:16,567 --> 01:14:20,567
and I hope I'm not making anyone feel defensive by that.

1212
01:14:20,567 --> 01:14:24,567
But it's like how does Bitcoin really work under the hood?

1213
01:14:24,567 --> 01:14:28,567
The confirmations are measured by your full node,

1214
01:14:28,567 --> 01:14:32,567
and the confirmation is when a miner has chosen to build

1215
01:14:32,567 --> 01:14:38,567
on this, extend this blockchain tip.

1216
01:14:38,567 --> 01:14:40,567
So does that make sense?

1217
01:14:40,567 --> 01:14:49,567
The vote, maybe it should be replaced with like a trans-confirmation or something.

1218
01:14:49,567 --> 01:14:51,567
Something like that, I don't know.

1219
01:14:51,567 --> 01:14:55,567
Yeah, I have been hyping this very high-quality tweet.

1220
01:14:55,698 --> 01:15:00,698
And let's make it like this, I'm going to read it out loud, and then I'm going to
play another ad, and then you get to comment on it.

1221
01:15:00,698 --> 01:15:05,698
So we got some cliffhangers here.

1222
01:15:05,698 --> 01:15:09,698
So first of all, I need to share my screen.

1223
01:15:09,698 --> 01:15:18,698
I wish there was some automation for this, like to press only one button and go back
to my previous setting, but it's an open-source software, it's called Jitsi.

1224
01:15:19,698 --> 01:15:24,698
And I guess if we don't like it, we can improve it.

1225
01:15:24,698 --> 01:15:36,698
Anyway, ZenderCTV at ZND Toshi says, under BIP300 rules, 26% of miners can lock
coins in a Drivechain indefinitely.

1226
01:15:36,698 --> 01:15:42,698
Imagine USA government mandating Foundry to never release coins from a privacy
Drivechain.

1227
01:15:42,698 --> 01:15:48,698
Miners have the option to use Alarm, which is a vote that downvotes all proposals.

1228
01:15:48,698 --> 01:15:57,698
Thus, even if 74% votes in favor, the proposal still does not go through because it
can never reach 51% in favor.

1229
01:15:57,698 --> 01:16:04,698
If there are miners that abstain from voting, then there is a lower percentage
needed to lock indefinitely the coins.

1230
01:16:04,698 --> 01:16:07,698
Drivechain people should understand the risks.

1231
01:16:07,698 --> 01:16:14,698
BIP300 introduces voting, a democracy pillar that may come with states trying to
influence sidechain security.

1232
01:16:14,698 --> 01:16:17,698
Voting should not be part of Bitcoin security assumptions.

1233
01:16:17,698 --> 01:16:22,698
Proposal refers to proposal to peg out coins from a Drivechain.

1234
01:16:22,698 --> 01:16:24,698
And there are more comments.

1235
01:16:24,698 --> 01:16:30,698
Let me play the ad for Satodime, which is a pretty cool way to turn your Bitcoin
into cash.

1236
01:16:30,698 --> 01:16:35,698
Like an ancient paper wallet that exists under the shape of a card.

1237
01:16:35,698 --> 01:16:37,698
And then you can comment on this.

1238
01:16:37,698 --> 01:16:39,698
So you can take the time to think.

1239
01:16:39,698 --> 01:16:41,698
We'll be back.

1240
01:16:41,698 --> 01:16:43,698
Remember the paper wallet?

1241
01:16:43,698 --> 01:16:44,698
Ah, yes.

1242
01:16:44,698 --> 01:16:48,698
The good old days when you printed your Bitcoin private key on an offline computer.

1243
01:16:48,698 --> 01:16:52,698
It was so fun, but not really easy and totally not secure.

1244
01:16:52,698 --> 01:16:54,698
Today, we have Satodime.

1245
01:16:54,698 --> 01:17:01,698
A chip card that acts just like your good old paper wallet, but with all the modern
security features and top-notch functionality.

1246
01:17:01,698 --> 01:17:05,698
It turns your Bitcoin into a bearer asset, which you can easily trade in person.

1247
01:17:05,698 --> 01:17:09,698
Thanks to NFC, you can use the Satodime card with your smartphone.

1248
01:17:09,698 --> 01:17:12,698
Creating a new pair of Bitcoin keys takes just two swipes.

1249
01:17:12,698 --> 01:17:14,698
Check your balance in real time.

1250
01:17:14,698 --> 01:17:16,698
Create multiple key pairs.

1251
01:17:16,698 --> 01:17:20,698
Whenever you want, you can reveal your Bitcoin wallet's private key with just a
single click.

1252
01:17:20,698 --> 01:17:25,698
The simple, uncluttered interface lets you quickly see if a key pair has been
unsealed.

1253
01:17:25,698 --> 01:17:27,698
Finally, the cold storage you've been looking for.

1254
01:17:27,698 --> 01:17:31,698
Available now on Satodime.io.

1255
01:17:35,698 --> 01:17:37,698
Okay, Paul, don't forget that you're muted.

1256
01:17:37,698 --> 01:17:40,698
I guess you sneezed, so bless you.

1257
01:17:40,698 --> 01:17:44,698
Now you get to comment on Zentoshi's recent leak.

1258
01:17:44,698 --> 01:17:47,698
Yes, this is a good comment.

1259
01:17:48,698 --> 01:17:51,698
Yeah, like will the problems ever stop emerging?

1260
01:17:51,698 --> 01:17:55,698
But I think what you have to keep in mind is this is, again...

1261
01:17:55,698 --> 01:18:01,698
Okay, so first of all, by design, it's supposed to be problematic for the users of
the L2.

1262
01:18:01,698 --> 01:18:03,698
Because it's a question of ethics.

1263
01:18:03,698 --> 01:18:13,698
Who is gaining the new feature of the sidechain, like the larger blocks or the
privacy or whatever?

1264
01:18:13,698 --> 01:18:18,698
That's the person who's getting the benefit, and so they should bear the cost.

1265
01:18:18,698 --> 01:18:20,698
Now, why is it like this?

1266
01:18:20,698 --> 01:18:23,698
Why is there an ability to downvote?

1267
01:18:23,698 --> 01:18:26,698
And why then can 26 defeat everything?

1268
01:18:26,698 --> 01:18:36,698
Well, this is because if a vote is canceled or stalls out, it's just going to take a
couple more months to eventually be withdrawn.

1269
01:18:36,698 --> 01:18:41,698
So, like I said, this is a situation where everyone knows what the right answer is.

1270
01:18:41,698 --> 01:18:47,698
So it should be easy to get unanimous agreement to vote for the right thing.

1271
01:18:47,698 --> 01:18:51,698
And if there's not, it means that something is wrong.

1272
01:18:51,698 --> 01:18:54,698
And if something is wrong, it's better to delay and pause.

1273
01:18:54,698 --> 01:18:59,698
Because if the coins are stolen, if they're miswithdrawn, then you lose 100% of the
value.

1274
01:18:59,698 --> 01:19:08,698
But if there's merely a delay or confusion, it's just another three or so months of
time value of money...

1275
01:19:08,698 --> 01:19:11,698
...that people can swap out at a low interest rate.

1276
01:19:11,698 --> 01:19:13,698
If people can sell the sidechain coins.

1277
01:19:13,698 --> 01:19:15,698
Oh, no, your camera is flashing.

1278
01:19:15,698 --> 01:19:18,698
Yeah, I'm going to replace it so you can keep talking.

1279
01:19:18,698 --> 01:19:20,698
Yes, I'll keep going.

1280
01:19:25,698 --> 01:19:27,698
What was I saying now?

1281
01:19:27,698 --> 01:19:30,698
It was so distressing to see the red battery thing.

1282
01:19:30,698 --> 01:19:33,698
It's always fear-inspiring when you see that.

1283
01:19:33,698 --> 01:19:39,698
So the people who bear the cost should be the ones who opt into the new feature.

1284
01:19:39,698 --> 01:19:47,698
It's better to have the withdrawal process fail, which is to say delay for another
few months...

1285
01:19:47,698 --> 01:19:50,698
...rather than have it result in a theft.

1286
01:19:50,698 --> 01:19:52,698
We actually want it to be conservative.

1287
01:19:52,698 --> 01:19:55,698
Because a theft is minus 100%.

1288
01:19:55,698 --> 01:19:59,698
And the delay is only minus time value of money for a few months.

1289
01:19:59,698 --> 01:20:02,698
So it's minus nothing. It's less than a percent.

1290
01:20:02,698 --> 01:20:03,698
Very little.

1291
01:20:03,698 --> 01:20:06,698
Now, with regard to that specific thing about what would happen...

1292
01:20:06,698 --> 01:20:09,698
...if the US government told Foundry to hold the coins hostage.

1293
01:20:09,698 --> 01:20:11,698
I don't think any of that would work.

1294
01:20:11,698 --> 01:20:16,698
I think this is a question of what about the governments and mining pools.

1295
01:20:16,698 --> 01:20:19,698
And it has nothing to do with sidechains at all.

1296
01:20:19,698 --> 01:20:22,698
It's just a question that has its own merit.

1297
01:20:22,698 --> 01:20:28,698
And what we should do is we should make it as easy as possible to replace a mining
pool.

1298
01:20:28,698 --> 01:20:30,698
And for miners to switch pools.

1299
01:20:30,698 --> 01:20:36,698
So that at the drop of a hat, if a mining pool does something that the users or
miners or anyone...

1300
01:20:36,698 --> 01:20:40,698
...holders of the currency don't like, they will switch.

1301
01:20:40,698 --> 01:20:43,698
And these people all have the same incentives.

1302
01:20:43,698 --> 01:20:45,698
The incentives are all aligned.

1303
01:20:45,698 --> 01:20:47,698
The miners collect the transaction fees.

1304
01:20:47,698 --> 01:20:49,698
The miners are only paid in BTC.

1305
01:20:49,698 --> 01:20:56,698
It's not like the miners get paid in whatever, like Turkish Lira or Euros or
something.

1306
01:20:56,698 --> 01:20:57,698
They get paid in BTC.

1307
01:20:57,698 --> 01:21:01,698
So they want the BTC exchange rate to be high and not to crash.

1308
01:21:01,698 --> 01:21:02,698
They want Bitcoin to work.

1309
01:21:02,698 --> 01:21:03,698
They have vested interest in Bitcoin.

1310
01:21:03,698 --> 01:21:05,698
They have the 100 block maturity period.

1311
01:21:05,698 --> 01:21:09,698
So they have their incentives totally aligned.

1312
01:21:09,698 --> 01:21:15,698
And we want them to have the pool on a very short leash.

1313
01:21:15,698 --> 01:21:20,698
So if the pool, the edict comes down, the government edict comes down...

1314
01:21:20,698 --> 01:21:25,698
...and it says the pool must do this, must do a certain bad thing, whatever it is.

1315
01:21:25,698 --> 01:21:27,698
Censor a transaction.

1316
01:21:27,698 --> 01:21:29,698
Censor a list of transactions.

1317
01:21:29,698 --> 01:21:32,698
Censor the withdrawal, kind of in this case.

1318
01:21:32,698 --> 01:21:33,698
Whatever.

1319
01:21:33,698 --> 01:21:37,698
If they do that, then we just want everyone to just leave the Foundry pool
immediately...

1320
01:21:37,698 --> 01:21:38,698
...and join a different pool.

1321
01:21:38,698 --> 01:21:40,698
This would be great news for the other pools.

1322
01:21:40,698 --> 01:21:44,698
They finally get the big break they've been waiting for...

1323
01:21:44,698 --> 01:21:49,698
...which is the opportunity to muscle in on Foundry's market share.

1324
01:21:49,698 --> 01:21:51,698
That's the solution to the problem of pools.

1325
01:21:52,698 --> 01:21:56,698
It has nothing to do with Drivechain.

1326
01:21:56,698 --> 01:21:59,698
In the case of Drivechain, again, it's all perfectly aligned...

1327
01:21:59,698 --> 01:22:04,698
...because the people who opt in to the new feature bear the risk.

1328
01:22:04,698 --> 01:22:06,698
It's possible that it won't work.

1329
01:22:06,698 --> 01:22:10,698
But if so, we should all learn that now because this is the fee.

1330
01:22:10,698 --> 01:22:13,698
This is the long run model for Bitcoin of fees only...

1331
01:22:13,698 --> 01:22:17,698
...being enticing enough to keep the network alive.

1332
01:22:18,698 --> 01:22:21,698
So it's a multi-part answer.

1333
01:22:21,698 --> 01:22:23,698
He's right about that.

1334
01:22:23,698 --> 01:22:27,698
He's right that they can be delayed, but delay is better than minus 100%.

1335
01:22:27,698 --> 01:22:33,698
And the question of intimidating pools should just be solved a different way.

1336
01:22:33,698 --> 01:22:36,698
I've tweeted about this publicly, including recently...

1337
01:22:36,698 --> 01:22:38,698
...which LayerTwo Labs is happy to find.

1338
01:22:38,698 --> 01:22:47,698
If we find the right people to work on a high-performance, open-source mining
pool...

1339
01:22:47,698 --> 01:22:51,698
...like server software or what have you...

1340
01:22:51,698 --> 01:22:53,698
...that is something we are interested in making.

1341
01:22:53,698 --> 01:22:55,698
We're interested in supporting Stratum V2...

1342
01:22:55,698 --> 01:23:00,698
...although I think Stratum V2 is overrated and doesn't even go far enough.

1343
01:23:00,698 --> 01:23:02,698
Because what we really want...

1344
01:23:02,698 --> 01:23:04,698
I think Matt Corral tweeted this recently, and I agree.

1345
01:23:04,698 --> 01:23:06,698
That's what I was getting.

1346
01:23:06,698 --> 01:23:08,698
Specifically, I'm sharing this tweet right now.

1347
01:23:08,698 --> 01:23:13,698
He says, if you want to make
BIP300-slash-Drivechains-slash-decentralized-side-chains happen...

1348
01:23:13,698 --> 01:23:17,698
...in a way that isn't embarrassingly insecure...

1349
01:23:17,698 --> 01:23:23,698
...work on Stratum V2, work on Braid pool, bring back P2 pool.

1350
01:23:23,698 --> 01:23:28,698
Without substantial increases in mining decentralization, these things make zero
sense.

1351
01:23:28,698 --> 01:23:30,698
This is what he said.

1352
01:23:30,698 --> 01:23:32,698
And he got fewer likes than Vortex.

1353
01:23:32,698 --> 01:23:34,698
I know. Isn't that weird?

1354
01:23:34,698 --> 01:23:37,698
I know. Yeah, that's very constructive of him, of course.

1355
01:23:37,698 --> 01:23:41,698
I think also, though, this is like his pet project and he wants to shill it.

1356
01:23:41,698 --> 01:23:43,698
And I think he's right to do so.

1357
01:23:43,698 --> 01:23:48,698
I think that I finally, after years and years of just being mystified...

1358
01:23:48,698 --> 01:23:55,698
...and asking people to define, what do you mean by mining centralization?

1359
01:23:55,698 --> 01:24:01,698
I finally know what I think at least a few people who are smart are talking about.

1360
01:24:01,698 --> 01:24:06,698
They mean make it as easy as possible to switch pools if it misbehaves.

1361
01:24:06,698 --> 01:24:09,698
So I'm in full agreement with that.

1362
01:24:09,698 --> 01:24:11,698
Full and total agreement with that.

1363
01:24:11,698 --> 01:24:15,698
I happen to think one of my thoughts is, and actually I think that it's quite...

1364
01:24:15,698 --> 01:24:18,698
...and I think Udi replied to Bluemat to say this...

1365
01:24:18,698 --> 01:24:21,698
...is that the situation is actually not that bad...

1366
01:24:21,698 --> 01:24:24,698
...because when's the last time miners have done anything wrong?

1367
01:24:24,698 --> 01:24:28,698
There's only a few times and they have weird extenuating circumstances...

1368
01:24:28,698 --> 01:24:30,698
...that involve misunderstandings or something.

1369
01:24:30,698 --> 01:24:35,698
So it's not like the miners are really not being that evil.

1370
01:24:35,698 --> 01:24:45,698
So I think you could easily make a case that we don't actually need Stratum V2 right
now.

1371
01:24:45,698 --> 01:24:48,698
Because the situation isn't that bad.

1372
01:24:48,698 --> 01:24:50,698
But nonetheless, we should constantly be trying to improve it.

1373
01:24:50,698 --> 01:24:56,698
I'm fully in favor of making the pools as vulnerable as possible...

1374
01:24:56,698 --> 01:25:01,698
...driving their profit margins to zero...

1375
01:25:01,698 --> 01:25:06,698
...making it so they own nothing but their name brand and their IP address or
whatever.

1376
01:25:06,698 --> 01:25:10,698
And I think that would be healthy for Bitcoin to have competitive pools.

1377
01:25:10,698 --> 01:25:14,698
But the thing is, I think it's already very competitive.

1378
01:25:14,698 --> 01:25:16,698
I mean, don't you? What do you think about that?

1379
01:25:16,698 --> 01:25:18,698
What is the pool...

1380
01:25:18,698 --> 01:25:22,698
See, the thing about pools is, the pool is a good thing.

1381
01:25:22,698 --> 01:25:25,698
Without pools, we would never have small miners and we would be dead.

1382
01:25:25,698 --> 01:25:28,698
Without pools, there really would be...

1383
01:25:28,698 --> 01:25:31,698
We're so lucky that we have pools. It's not even funny.

1384
01:25:31,698 --> 01:25:36,698
Because if we couldn't have pools, then you would never be able to be a miner...

1385
01:25:36,698 --> 01:25:41,698
...unless you had something like 1 3000th or some math that I have done.

1386
01:25:41,698 --> 01:25:45,698
Is that 1 4500th, I believe it was, or 2500th?

1387
01:25:45,698 --> 01:25:50,698
If you have that portion of the hash rate in the 10-minute blocks...

1388
01:25:50,698 --> 01:25:54,698
...then you're finding one block on average every 31 days.

1389
01:25:54,698 --> 01:25:57,698
Which means that sometimes you're not finding a block for weeks.

1390
01:25:57,698 --> 01:26:01,698
I mean, excuse me, for months. For like three months.

1391
01:26:01,698 --> 01:26:07,698
So there's no way you can have a normal business plan with the revenue that uneven.

1392
01:26:07,698 --> 01:26:10,698
Right? So you're out of business if you're too small.

1393
01:26:10,698 --> 01:26:13,698
But because of pools, we can have these small miners...

1394
01:26:13,698 --> 01:26:19,698
...and this one variance problem, they can just have completely be solved for them
by the pool.

1395
01:26:19,698 --> 01:26:21,698
And it is very, very easy.

1396
01:26:21,698 --> 01:26:23,698
You can take a simple ratio.

1397
01:26:23,698 --> 01:26:25,698
What is the...

1398
01:26:25,698 --> 01:26:31,698
How easy is it for someone who has a hashing operation...

1399
01:26:31,698 --> 01:26:33,698
...they have like a big warehouse full of miners or whatever...

1400
01:26:33,698 --> 01:26:36,698
...they're a home miner, they heat their swimming pool with their mine or whatever.

1401
01:26:36,698 --> 01:26:42,698
How easy is it for that person to switch from one mining pool to the next?

1402
01:26:43,698 --> 01:26:50,698
Versus how easy is it for a mining pool to attract...

1403
01:26:50,698 --> 01:26:54,698
...go from not having the customer, not having their hash customer...

1404
01:26:54,698 --> 01:26:58,698
...to suddenly having that hash rate in the pool?

1405
01:26:58,698 --> 01:27:00,698
One of them, it costs almost nothing.

1406
01:27:00,698 --> 01:27:04,698
And the other one, you know, in a short time frame is like an infinite cost.

1407
01:27:04,698 --> 01:27:08,698
And over the medium term costs millions of dollars.

1408
01:27:08,698 --> 01:27:11,698
So already the ratio is enormous.

1409
01:27:11,698 --> 01:27:14,698
It is very appropriate balance.

1410
01:27:14,698 --> 01:27:18,698
And so the situation is honestly not that bad.

1411
01:27:18,698 --> 01:27:21,698
And the reason we have pools is because for statistical variance reason...

1412
01:27:21,698 --> 01:27:26,698
...this is why a pool must be like 2-3% of the hash rate...

1413
01:27:26,698 --> 01:27:29,698
...for its magic variance reduction properties.

1414
01:27:29,698 --> 01:27:31,698
It's a statistical thing.

1415
01:27:31,698 --> 01:27:37,698
It has nothing to do with sidechains or other software really...

1416
01:27:37,698 --> 01:27:39,698
...or even the miners costs.

1417
01:27:39,698 --> 01:27:41,698
It has nothing to do with any of that.

1418
01:27:41,698 --> 01:27:43,698
Does that make sense?

1419
01:27:43,698 --> 01:27:45,698
Yeah. You asked me what I think about pools.

1420
01:27:45,698 --> 01:27:48,698
I actually have an article about it in my latest magazine.

1421
01:27:48,698 --> 01:27:49,698
That's called Breaking FUD.

1422
01:27:49,698 --> 01:27:51,698
It's open source. Anyone can download it.

1423
01:27:51,698 --> 01:27:53,698
I guess I'll put a link in the description.

1424
01:27:53,698 --> 01:27:56,698
There are also two shops where you can buy this...

1425
01:27:56,698 --> 01:27:58,698
...but they're only in Europe and UK.

1426
01:27:58,698 --> 01:28:01,698
There's lnbitshop and there's shopinbit.com.

1427
01:28:01,698 --> 01:28:03,698
And I'm done chilling here.

1428
01:28:03,698 --> 01:28:06,698
But just for the record, I do have something which explains...

1429
01:28:06,698 --> 01:28:08,698
...the dynamics of mining pools...

1430
01:28:08,698 --> 01:28:11,698
...and why it's not as bad as people present all the time...

1431
01:28:11,698 --> 01:28:13,698
...when they're like, oh, Foundry is so big...

1432
01:28:13,698 --> 01:28:18,698
...they can 51% attack Bitcoin if they join forces with one other pool.

1433
01:28:18,698 --> 01:28:19,698
They say that stuff.

1434
01:28:19,698 --> 01:28:23,698
Yeah. At the drop of a hat, the pool, the pie chart can change.

1435
01:28:24,698 --> 01:28:28,698
Yeah. I think if anything, in the last two years...

1436
01:28:28,698 --> 01:28:30,698
...we have seen how dynamic mining is.

1437
01:28:30,698 --> 01:28:34,698
When China kicked out most of their miners, there are still some.

1438
01:28:34,698 --> 01:28:37,698
There's still F2 pool. There's still Ant pool.

1439
01:28:37,698 --> 01:28:39,698
But I'm not sure from where they operate.

1440
01:28:39,698 --> 01:28:42,698
And that's the funny part because right now I'm in Romania, right?

1441
01:28:42,698 --> 01:28:47,698
I could be running my own ASIC miner with any pool that I want...

1442
01:28:47,698 --> 01:28:50,698
...but it doesn't mean that I am under that jurisdiction...

1443
01:28:50,698 --> 01:28:54,698
...or that I have to follow or comply with whatever they're doing.

1444
01:28:54,698 --> 01:28:57,698
I can just switch whenever I want.

1445
01:28:57,698 --> 01:28:59,698
And I wish more mining was like this...

1446
01:28:59,698 --> 01:29:01,698
...but there's also that industrial side of it...

1447
01:29:01,698 --> 01:29:04,698
...that is very large scale and that's much easier to seize...

1448
01:29:04,698 --> 01:29:06,698
...and control by governments.

1449
01:29:07,698 --> 01:29:11,698
Yes. So mining has all kinds of economies and diseconomies of scale.

1450
01:29:12,698 --> 01:29:16,698
But maybe we can put some people's minds slightly at ease...

1451
01:29:16,698 --> 01:29:19,698
...if we just point out some things like, for example...

1452
01:29:21,698 --> 01:29:24,698
...it's kind of difficult to hide the physical location...

1453
01:29:24,698 --> 01:29:28,698
...of a big mining operation, but it's not impossible.

1454
01:29:28,698 --> 01:29:31,698
And one reason why it's not that hard...

1455
01:29:31,698 --> 01:29:35,698
...is because the actual job, the bandwidth...

1456
01:29:35,698 --> 01:29:38,698
...even if you're running a full node...

1457
01:29:38,698 --> 01:29:41,698
...you could run the full node, the Bitcoin full node...

1458
01:29:41,698 --> 01:29:43,698
...which has these bandwidth requirements...

1459
01:29:43,698 --> 01:29:45,698
...you could run that in like Tokyo.

1460
01:29:45,698 --> 01:29:47,698
It can be assembling the block...

1461
01:29:47,698 --> 01:29:49,698
...or of course the pool operator can be doing this.

1462
01:29:49,698 --> 01:29:52,698
And then what is sent to the actual hashers...

1463
01:29:52,698 --> 01:29:54,698
...the actual ASIC chips and everything...

1464
01:29:54,698 --> 01:29:58,698
...is this very, very small, very small file...

1465
01:29:58,698 --> 01:30:00,698
...which is just like the Merkle branch...

1466
01:30:00,698 --> 01:30:03,698
...and the Coinbase transaction and the header.

1467
01:30:03,698 --> 01:30:05,698
This is a very, very, very small file...

1468
01:30:05,698 --> 01:30:08,698
...like whatever, like 200 bytes or something.

1469
01:30:08,698 --> 01:30:10,698
And so that is small...

1470
01:30:10,698 --> 01:30:13,698
...and that is small enough to fit behind Tor or whatever.

1471
01:30:14,698 --> 01:30:16,698
So in principle, you can always hide...

1472
01:30:16,698 --> 01:30:19,698
...you can always try to hide the location of the mining rig...

1473
01:30:19,698 --> 01:30:23,698
...hiding a huge rig that is of industrial scale...

1474
01:30:23,698 --> 01:30:25,698
...that uses a ton of electricity.

1475
01:30:25,698 --> 01:30:26,698
That's very difficult.

1476
01:30:26,698 --> 01:30:30,698
But if miners were in the business of seizing...

1477
01:30:32,698 --> 01:30:34,698
...mining equipment...

1478
01:30:34,698 --> 01:30:36,698
...then that would just...

1479
01:30:36,698 --> 01:30:39,698
...every miner would then come up with a plan for...

1480
01:30:39,698 --> 01:30:41,698
...how do I hide my mining equipment?

1481
01:30:41,698 --> 01:30:43,698
How can I move to a place where...

1482
01:30:44,698 --> 01:30:46,698
...people won't know that it's here...

1483
01:30:46,698 --> 01:30:49,698
...or if they do, then they won't be able to take it easily.

1484
01:30:50,698 --> 01:30:54,698
So the whole thing is honestly quite healthy, I think...

1485
01:30:54,698 --> 01:30:56,698
...and I don't really see...

1486
01:30:56,698 --> 01:30:59,698
So Stratum v2, happy to work on it...

1487
01:30:59,698 --> 01:31:01,698
...happy to fund it...

1488
01:31:01,698 --> 01:31:05,698
...happy to continue to work towards making it...

1489
01:31:05,698 --> 01:31:07,698
...as easy as possible for...

1490
01:31:09,698 --> 01:31:11,698
...for a miner to switch pools...

1491
01:31:11,698 --> 01:31:15,698
...for a miner to identify that a pool is guilty of something...

1492
01:31:15,698 --> 01:31:18,698
...and try to prove that to other people.

1493
01:31:18,698 --> 01:31:21,698
At the end of the day, the only bad thing miners can really do...

1494
01:31:21,698 --> 01:31:24,698
...is reorg the chain or censor transactions...

1495
01:31:24,698 --> 01:31:26,698
...from the L1 point of view.

1496
01:31:28,698 --> 01:31:30,698
They have no incentive to do either of those things...

1497
01:31:30,698 --> 01:31:33,698
...because when they reorg, they are...

1498
01:31:33,698 --> 01:31:35,698
...some other miner, which is possibly them...

1499
01:31:35,698 --> 01:31:38,698
...is losing money because of the 100 block maturity idea...

1500
01:31:38,698 --> 01:31:39,698
...which is brilliant.

1501
01:31:39,698 --> 01:31:40,698
And...

1502
01:31:41,698 --> 01:31:42,698
...on top of that...

1503
01:31:43,698 --> 01:31:45,698
...they have no incentive ever to...

1504
01:31:45,698 --> 01:31:48,698
...to censor transactions...

1505
01:31:48,698 --> 01:31:50,698
...because each transaction pays a fee.

1506
01:31:50,698 --> 01:31:53,698
And in fact, you have a built-in fraud proof...

1507
01:31:53,698 --> 01:31:55,698
...which is the transaction itself.

1508
01:31:55,698 --> 01:31:57,698
Transaction itself, if it's broadcast...

1509
01:31:57,698 --> 01:31:59,698
...and it's not being included in a block...

1510
01:31:59,698 --> 01:32:00,698
...everyone knows that something is up.

1511
01:32:00,698 --> 01:32:02,698
And everyone also knows exactly what to do about it.

1512
01:32:02,698 --> 01:32:04,698
Just include it, and you know exactly what you get.

1513
01:32:04,698 --> 01:32:06,698
You get the transaction fee as your reward.

1514
01:32:06,698 --> 01:32:09,698
It's a perfectly, like, self-fixing...

1515
01:32:09,698 --> 01:32:12,698
...self-healing equilibrium.

1516
01:32:12,698 --> 01:32:13,698
So...

1517
01:32:13,698 --> 01:32:14,698
There really is no...

1518
01:32:14,698 --> 01:32:16,698
So that was a neat thing from Zentoshi...

1519
01:32:16,698 --> 01:32:18,698
...but I don't think it's...

1520
01:32:18,698 --> 01:32:19,698
I don't, you know...

1521
01:32:19,698 --> 01:32:21,698
I don't think it's a problem for BIP300.

1522
01:32:21,698 --> 01:32:23,698
Yeah, so let me show you this...

1523
01:32:23,698 --> 01:32:24,698
...because I think Jameson Lopp...

1524
01:32:24,698 --> 01:32:26,698
...and the critics are going to be like...

1525
01:32:26,698 --> 01:32:28,698
...of course he's into Drivechains...

1526
01:32:28,698 --> 01:32:30,698
...because he was a big blocker, right?

1527
01:32:30,698 --> 01:32:33,698
But he says, at what level of hash power distribution...

1528
01:32:33,698 --> 01:32:35,698
...would you consider BIP300...

1529
01:32:35,698 --> 01:32:38,698
...to be secure enough to support mainnet adoption?

1530
01:32:38,698 --> 01:32:41,698
How would you quantify, slash, measure it?

1531
01:32:41,698 --> 01:32:43,698
And Matt Corallo said...

1532
01:32:43,698 --> 01:32:45,698
...great question, I don't know.

1533
01:32:45,698 --> 01:32:48,698
I don't know if I'd ever be super happy with it...

1534
01:32:48,698 --> 01:32:50,698
...but if you have a lot of miners...

1535
01:32:50,698 --> 01:32:53,698
...with no more than 1-2% of hash power...

1536
01:32:53,698 --> 01:32:56,698
...small-scale sidechains are maybe reasonable...

1537
01:32:56,698 --> 01:32:58,698
...never large-scale though.

1538
01:32:58,698 --> 01:33:00,698
This is what he thinks.

1539
01:33:00,698 --> 01:33:02,698
Okay, yes.

1540
01:33:03,698 --> 01:33:05,698
You think this is fair?

1541
01:33:05,698 --> 01:33:06,698
No, I don't.

1542
01:33:06,698 --> 01:33:09,698
But I think he can hold that as his own opinion...

1543
01:33:09,698 --> 01:33:12,698
...which I think is 100%, 110% fair.

1544
01:33:12,698 --> 01:33:14,698
But I think the idea is...

1545
01:33:14,698 --> 01:33:17,698
...each individual person should be pushing the envelope.

1546
01:33:17,698 --> 01:33:19,698
Transactions are different, right?

1547
01:33:19,698 --> 01:33:22,698
So there's your cold storage...

1548
01:33:22,698 --> 01:33:25,698
...there's your life savings, there's your retirement...

1549
01:33:25,698 --> 01:33:27,698
...and then there's the wallet.

1550
01:33:27,698 --> 01:33:30,698
You walk around with your spending money...

1551
01:33:30,698 --> 01:33:32,698
...your coffee money.

1552
01:33:32,698 --> 01:33:35,698
And maybe that's a small percentage of your net worth...

1553
01:33:35,698 --> 01:33:38,698
...but there you like having that on the large block sidechain.

1554
01:33:38,698 --> 01:33:40,698
So people are different.

1555
01:33:40,698 --> 01:33:42,698
Transactions are different.

1556
01:33:42,698 --> 01:33:47,698
The real world has transactions of great heterogeneity.

1557
01:33:47,698 --> 01:33:50,698
They're all different shapes and sizes.

1558
01:33:50,698 --> 01:33:52,698
So some of them are a good fit...

1559
01:33:52,698 --> 01:33:56,698
...for an insecure large block sidechain.

1560
01:33:56,698 --> 01:33:58,698
Some of them are a perfect fit for that...

1561
01:33:58,698 --> 01:34:01,698
...and they're not a good fit for anything else.

1562
01:34:01,698 --> 01:34:04,698
And some should only be on L1, of course.

1563
01:34:04,698 --> 01:34:06,698
I think everyone agrees with that.

1564
01:34:06,698 --> 01:34:11,698
Some should only be on a ZK-SNARK privacy...

1565
01:34:11,698 --> 01:34:13,698
...extremely subversive transactions...

1566
01:34:13,698 --> 01:34:17,698
...or darknet market purchases or whatever.

1567
01:34:17,698 --> 01:34:20,698
Privacy activists or anything sensitive...

1568
01:34:20,698 --> 01:34:22,698
...subversive, political, whatever.

1569
01:34:22,698 --> 01:34:24,698
Maybe those people would want...

1570
01:34:24,698 --> 01:34:27,698
...maybe those people should only use the privacy sidechain...

1571
01:34:27,698 --> 01:34:32,698
...and they should not use something with the public...

1572
01:34:32,698 --> 01:34:36,698
...blockchain public UTXO model...

1573
01:34:36,698 --> 01:34:39,698
...or whatever, TXID model, chain analysis model.

1574
01:34:39,698 --> 01:34:41,698
So it depends.

1575
01:34:41,698 --> 01:34:43,698
It's all different shapes and sizes.

1576
01:34:43,698 --> 01:34:46,698
The idea of declaring that something is good or bad...

1577
01:34:46,698 --> 01:34:48,698
...is a fallacy.

1578
01:34:48,698 --> 01:34:52,698
It depends on the situation, is my view.

1579
01:34:52,698 --> 01:34:55,698
Yeah, there's also a very good argument...

1580
01:34:55,698 --> 01:34:58,698
...by Matthew Haywood, works at Blockstream.

1581
01:34:58,698 --> 01:35:01,698
And he was in the chat, I guess, a few minutes ago.

1582
01:35:01,698 --> 01:35:03,698
I hope he is still here.

1583
01:35:03,698 --> 01:35:05,698
He sent out this tweet...

1584
01:35:05,698 --> 01:35:08,698
...which contains his, I guess, list of criticisms.

1585
01:35:08,698 --> 01:35:10,698
Let me share the screen.

1586
01:35:10,698 --> 01:35:11,698
Okay, great.

1587
01:35:11,698 --> 01:35:14,698
I had a disagreement with him before we started recording.

1588
01:35:14,698 --> 01:35:17,698
And that's where I told him, you know, just calm down.

1589
01:35:17,698 --> 01:35:18,698
We're going to do this live stream.

1590
01:35:18,698 --> 01:35:21,698
I'm going to read out loud everything that you have to say.

1591
01:35:21,698 --> 01:35:23,698
So he says right now...

1592
01:35:23,698 --> 01:35:26,698
...we have no idea how incentives and such sidechains...

1593
01:35:26,698 --> 01:35:28,698
...could affect Bitcoin.

1594
01:35:28,698 --> 01:35:30,698
Are the following still relevant to Drivechains...

1595
01:35:30,698 --> 01:35:32,698
...or have they been addressed?

1596
01:35:32,698 --> 01:35:33,698
Do you know that?

1597
01:35:33,698 --> 01:35:35,698
Can't remember the source of these...

1598
01:35:35,698 --> 01:35:38,698
...as it's a few years old notes I made.

1599
01:35:38,698 --> 01:35:41,698
So these are basically Matthew's notes.

1600
01:35:41,698 --> 01:35:43,698
And I'm going to open them.

1601
01:35:43,698 --> 01:35:44,698
It's too zoomed in.

1602
01:35:44,698 --> 01:35:45,698
Okay.

1603
01:35:45,698 --> 01:35:49,698
The need to soft for Bitcoin undermines the aims of weak coupling...

1604
01:35:49,698 --> 01:35:52,698
...and opens up the potential for external incentives...

1605
01:35:52,698 --> 01:35:54,698
...and political motivations...

1606
01:35:54,698 --> 01:35:57,698
...to impact Bitcoin's own incentive model.

1607
01:35:57,698 --> 01:36:00,698
Although it may be possible to try and mitigate such risks...

1608
01:36:00,698 --> 01:36:03,698
...by modeling the incentives of miners within a sidechain...

1609
01:36:03,698 --> 01:36:07,698
...it is not possible to incorporate personal and political motivations...

1610
01:36:07,698 --> 01:36:10,698
...unknown competitive advantages...

1611
01:36:10,698 --> 01:36:14,698
...and seemingly irrational behavior into these models...

1612
01:36:14,698 --> 01:36:17,698
...leaving them speculative at best.

1613
01:36:17,698 --> 01:36:18,698
Okay.

1614
01:36:18,698 --> 01:36:20,698
The first sentence I think he's referring to...

1615
01:36:20,698 --> 01:36:22,698
He could be referring to one of either two things.

1616
01:36:22,698 --> 01:36:24,698
Either this is a misunderstanding...

1617
01:36:24,698 --> 01:36:27,698
...of what it's like to activate each sidechain...

1618
01:36:27,698 --> 01:36:30,698
...or the first sentence is only talking about...

1619
01:36:30,698 --> 01:36:34,698
...the need to soft fork BIP300 in the first place.

1620
01:36:34,698 --> 01:36:36,698
In which case I wholeheartedly agree with him...

1621
01:36:36,698 --> 01:36:43,698
...that that causes a giant kerfuffle temporarily...

1622
01:36:43,698 --> 01:36:46,698
...and then it will activate and then it will be over.

1623
01:36:46,698 --> 01:36:48,698
Or something else will happen, of course.

1624
01:36:48,698 --> 01:36:50,698
Anything could happen.

1625
01:36:50,698 --> 01:36:52,698
So I think that's what he's talking about.

1626
01:36:52,698 --> 01:36:55,698
But now you have removed the rest of the paragraph.

1627
01:36:55,698 --> 01:36:57,698
So can we bring it back or no?

1628
01:36:57,698 --> 01:36:58,698
Yeah, yeah.

1629
01:36:58,698 --> 01:37:00,698
I just wanted to focus the camera on you.

1630
01:37:00,698 --> 01:37:03,698
I'm also like a show director right now.

1631
01:37:03,698 --> 01:37:05,698
So excuse me.

1632
01:37:05,698 --> 01:37:07,698
You can see it now.

1633
01:37:07,698 --> 01:37:10,698
Yeah, okay.

1634
01:37:10,698 --> 01:37:12,698
Although it may be possible to...

1635
01:37:12,698 --> 01:37:14,698
Yeah, impact Bitcoin's own incentive model.

1636
01:37:14,698 --> 01:37:19,698
But you see, again, Bitcoin's incentive model is not...

1637
01:37:19,698 --> 01:37:20,698
It's pretty simple.

1638
01:37:20,698 --> 01:37:23,698
It's just...

1639
01:37:23,698 --> 01:37:25,698
The nodes follow the rules.

1640
01:37:25,698 --> 01:37:27,698
The blocks follow the rules.

1641
01:37:27,698 --> 01:37:30,698
Every transaction is checked for validity.

1642
01:37:30,698 --> 01:37:34,698
Miners minimize their costs and they maximize their revenues.

1643
01:37:34,698 --> 01:37:38,698
And so even though Bitcoin itself is this very complicated thing...

1644
01:37:38,698 --> 01:37:41,698
...the incentives are not that complicated.

1645
01:37:41,698 --> 01:37:46,698
And so the...

1646
01:37:46,698 --> 01:37:50,698
Is he suggesting that because the sidechain exists...

1647
01:37:50,698 --> 01:37:57,698
...miners will stop caring about maximizing their Layer 1 transaction fee revenue?

1648
01:37:57,698 --> 01:38:00,698
They get the Layer 1 transaction fee.

1649
01:38:00,698 --> 01:38:05,698
If a transaction pays a $5 fee, that's a $5 worth of incentive for them to include
the fee.

1650
01:38:05,698 --> 01:38:11,698
That's the case kind of no matter what happens in the outside world.

1651
01:38:11,698 --> 01:38:13,698
Now you've moved the paragraph again.

1652
01:38:13,698 --> 01:38:14,698
I can't remember.

1653
01:38:14,698 --> 01:38:16,698
Yeah, there's a mention in the chat by Matthew.

1654
01:38:16,698 --> 01:38:22,698
He says, no, I meant you assume all miners act logically and according to your
expectations.

1655
01:38:22,698 --> 01:38:28,698
And blocking SegWit Soft Fork because of ASIC boost but being okay with it via Hard
Fork...

1656
01:38:28,698 --> 01:38:33,698
...is an example of a weird incentive miner that you mentioned.

1657
01:38:33,698 --> 01:38:36,698
Not evil, but not predictable.

1658
01:38:36,698 --> 01:38:39,698
Well, I know that in Blockstream, it's just taken for granted...

1659
01:38:39,698 --> 01:38:45,698
...that Greg Maxwell was correct about ASIC boost being the reason why SegWit was
held up.

1660
01:38:45,698 --> 01:38:46,698
But there's actually...

1661
01:38:46,698 --> 01:38:49,698
This is a total minutiae point, but I'm fascinated by all Bitcoin history.

1662
01:38:49,698 --> 01:38:51,698
So I'm happy to ramble about this.

1663
01:38:51,698 --> 01:38:55,698
But there's an enormous amount of evidence to suggest that ASIC boost had nothing
to...

1664
01:38:55,698 --> 01:38:58,698
Covert ASIC boost had nothing to do with SegWit activation.

1665
01:38:58,698 --> 01:39:00,698
So I know a lot of people don't agree.

1666
01:39:00,698 --> 01:39:05,698
But like one piece of evidence is that if this were the case...

1667
01:39:05,698 --> 01:39:10,698
...that activating SegWit would brick ASIC boost...

1668
01:39:10,698 --> 01:39:13,698
...when this would be worth millions of dollars...

1669
01:39:13,698 --> 01:39:20,698
...then you would think that whenever SegWit actually did activate on August 1st,
2017...

1670
01:39:20,698 --> 01:39:22,698
...that the hash rate would go down.

1671
01:39:22,698 --> 01:39:24,698
You know, maybe just a little.

1672
01:39:24,698 --> 01:39:26,698
But it doesn't change at all.

1673
01:39:26,698 --> 01:39:29,698
So I don't know why that...

1674
01:39:29,698 --> 01:39:31,698
Yes, regardless of why it was held up.

1675
01:39:31,698 --> 01:39:36,698
Yeah, I think the real reason is both more interesting...

1676
01:39:36,698 --> 01:39:38,698
...and almost a better way of making his point...

1677
01:39:38,698 --> 01:39:43,698
...which is that the miners came under the impression...

1678
01:39:43,698 --> 01:39:50,698
...that not activating SegWit would help them get a hard fork block size increase.

1679
01:39:50,698 --> 01:39:55,667
And I think that that was a combination of things, including bad luck.

1680
01:39:55,667 --> 01:39:58,667
...because we had this dispute, this dispute of like...

1681
01:39:58,667 --> 01:40:01,667
...what do we do about the fact that some people want large blocks...

1682
01:40:01,667 --> 01:40:04,667
...and some people want small blocks, which we didn't resolve...

1683
01:40:04,667 --> 01:40:07,667
...and which was mostly just resolved by saying...

1684
01:40:07,667 --> 01:40:10,667
...both of the two sides just assumed, oh, everyone agrees with us.

1685
01:40:10,667 --> 01:40:13,667
Everyone thinks that we're right.

1686
01:40:13,667 --> 01:40:16,667
So that was a very mature way of handling that disagreement.

1687
01:40:16,667 --> 01:40:19,667
But even though the correct side was not activated...

1688
01:40:20,667 --> 01:40:23,667
But even though the correct side won and I was a small blocker...

1689
01:40:23,667 --> 01:40:26,667
...and you can look up, there's a site where people made...

1690
01:40:26,667 --> 01:40:29,667
...they asked me for comments and I'm in the small blocker group.

1691
01:40:29,667 --> 01:40:32,667
So the fact that I even have to say that is a little depressing...

1692
01:40:32,667 --> 01:40:35,667
...but I'm actually in favor of shrinking the layer one block size...

1693
01:40:35,667 --> 01:40:38,667
...past not only from where it is now, four megabytes...

1694
01:40:38,667 --> 01:40:41,667
...but past one megabyte.

1695
01:40:41,667 --> 01:40:44,667
But I think part of what happened was just that people were angry...

1696
01:40:44,667 --> 01:40:47,667
...at scaling three and one miner left to go signal for Bitcoin Unlimited...

1697
01:40:48,667 --> 01:40:51,667
...with nine percent and that just happened to be the same weekend...

1698
01:40:51,667 --> 01:40:54,667
...that SegWit was shipped in the hackathon after scaling three.

1699
01:40:54,667 --> 01:40:57,667
So I think a lot of it was honestly just a weird coincidence.

1700
01:40:57,667 --> 01:41:00,667
And then I don't even think it ever occurred to the miners...

1701
01:41:00,667 --> 01:41:03,667
...that they could hold up SegWit until after they just did this fluke thing.

1702
01:41:03,667 --> 01:41:06,667
But this is my own weird interpretation of the thing.

1703
01:41:06,667 --> 01:41:09,667
So let's see.

1704
01:41:09,667 --> 01:41:12,667
Miners do not act as you expect and you expect a lot of predictable behavior...

1705
01:41:12,667 --> 01:41:15,667
...I think.

1706
01:41:15,667 --> 01:41:18,667
Well, if you think that behavior is totally unpredictable and random...

1707
01:41:18,667 --> 01:41:21,667
...especially miner behavior...

1708
01:41:21,667 --> 01:41:24,667
...then Bitcoin is doomed.

1709
01:41:24,667 --> 01:41:27,667
Because again, miner behavior equals proof of work...

1710
01:41:27,667 --> 01:41:30,667
...equals Bitcoin basically.

1711
01:41:30,667 --> 01:41:33,667
For example, what about your belief that miners will always extend...

1712
01:41:33,667 --> 01:41:36,667
...the longest chain or that they will never reorg more than 100 blocks...

1713
01:41:36,667 --> 01:41:39,667
...or that they will never reorg more than 50 blocks...

1714
01:41:39,667 --> 01:41:42,667
...or that the miners will never decide to censor transactions for no reason?

1715
01:41:43,667 --> 01:41:46,667
You actually are required to believe an awful lot.

1716
01:41:46,667 --> 01:41:49,667
Even when your wallet measures confirmations...

1717
01:41:49,667 --> 01:41:52,667
...or your full node measures confirmations...

1718
01:41:52,667 --> 01:41:55,667
...those confirmations only exist inside of a framework...

1719
01:41:55,667 --> 01:41:58,667
...of beliefs about what miners will do.

1720
01:41:58,667 --> 01:42:01,667
It's literally not possible to have a confirmation...

1721
01:42:01,667 --> 01:42:04,667
...unless you have a pre-existing framework...

1722
01:42:04,667 --> 01:42:07,667
...of what you believe miners will do.

1723
01:42:07,667 --> 01:42:10,667
And the co-confirmation system...

1724
01:42:10,667 --> 01:42:13,667
...and the co-confirmations thing is...

1725
01:42:13,667 --> 01:42:16,667
...you think that all miners have received this block...

1726
01:42:16,667 --> 01:42:19,667
...and you can't see of any reason why they would...

1727
01:42:19,667 --> 01:42:22,667
...honestly be...

1728
01:42:22,667 --> 01:42:25,667
...because they could have accidentally an orphaned block...

1729
01:42:25,667 --> 01:42:28,667
...or an orphaned chain of one or two blocks.

1730
01:42:28,667 --> 01:42:31,667
This could happen just because of the fact that...

1731
01:42:31,667 --> 01:42:34,667
...information travels at the speed of light...

1732
01:42:34,667 --> 01:42:37,667
...or near the speed of light through fiber-optic cables...

1733
01:42:37,667 --> 01:42:40,667
...and miners have stale blocks and orphaned...

1734
01:42:40,667 --> 01:42:43,667
...but when you have five or six confirmations...

1735
01:42:43,667 --> 01:42:46,667
...or when you deposit to an exchange...

1736
01:42:46,667 --> 01:42:49,667
...and you get three confirmations or whatever...

1737
01:42:49,667 --> 01:42:52,667
...all of that...

1738
01:42:52,667 --> 01:42:55,667
...if you deposit to Kraken and they make you wait for three confirmations...

1739
01:42:55,667 --> 01:42:58,667
...and then they credit you with the coin...

1740
01:42:58,667 --> 01:43:01,667
...that is because of a belief that Kraken has about miners' expectations.

1741
01:43:01,667 --> 01:43:04,667
So the idea of miners acting the way you expect...

1742
01:43:04,667 --> 01:43:07,667
...that is always the truth...

1743
01:43:07,667 --> 01:43:10,667
...and I think there is absolutely no possible way of escaping from that...

1744
01:43:10,667 --> 01:43:13,667
...like mental model or that framework.

1745
01:43:17,667 --> 01:43:20,667
Yeah, that's fine. I like when people ask questions...

1746
01:43:20,667 --> 01:43:23,667
...and I don't care if people argue.

1747
01:43:26,667 --> 01:43:29,667
Yes, but I don't know, Matthew, if you were here before...

1748
01:43:29,667 --> 01:43:32,667
...when I said there is a clear answer.

1749
01:43:33,667 --> 01:43:36,667
You can calculate the thing to do and code it as one hash...

1750
01:43:36,667 --> 01:43:39,667
...and that thing is the same for a very long time...

1751
01:43:39,667 --> 01:43:42,667
...and anyone who runs the sidechain node...

1752
01:43:42,667 --> 01:43:45,667
...which is not mandatory, but I'm just pointing...

1753
01:43:45,667 --> 01:43:48,667
...that anyone who runs the sidechain node in either its SPV or full form...

1754
01:43:48,667 --> 01:43:51,667
...they will get the right answer...

1755
01:43:51,667 --> 01:43:54,667
...and so at any given point in time there is only one correct answer...

1756
01:43:54,667 --> 01:43:57,667
...and it's also very easy to find.

1757
01:43:57,667 --> 01:44:00,667
So someone could just...

1758
01:44:00,667 --> 01:44:03,667
Also, separately from that is also...

1759
01:44:03,667 --> 01:44:06,667
...if they do the wrong thing, we know that it was intentional.

1760
01:44:06,667 --> 01:44:09,667
So we know they're basically pulling the plug on the whole...

1761
01:44:09,667 --> 01:44:12,667
...proof-of-work sidechains project...

1762
01:44:15,667 --> 01:44:18,667
...which I am fully prepared...

1763
01:44:18,667 --> 01:44:21,667
...feel free, people in the future can...

1764
01:44:21,667 --> 01:44:24,667
...find this video.

1765
01:44:24,667 --> 01:44:27,667
Oh, my thing's changed. Can you still hear me?

1766
01:44:27,667 --> 01:44:30,667
Okay, so people in the future can find this video and...

1767
01:44:30,667 --> 01:44:33,667
I hear you.

1768
01:44:33,667 --> 01:44:36,667
Okay, good. I have a weird globe spinning on my monitor...

1769
01:44:36,667 --> 01:44:39,667
...so hopefully it goes away.

1770
01:44:39,667 --> 01:44:42,667
No, it's a YouTube issue, I think.

1771
01:44:42,667 --> 01:44:45,667
Okay, so people in the future can find this video and play it...

1772
01:44:45,667 --> 01:44:48,667
...and say, look how wrong Paul was. I'm fine with that.

1773
01:44:48,667 --> 01:44:51,667
But if they are...

1774
01:44:51,667 --> 01:44:54,667
...they will have killed all the transaction fee revenues...

1775
01:44:54,667 --> 01:44:57,667
...if they do that, then they will also have killed any price appreciation...

1776
01:44:57,667 --> 01:45:00,667
...that accrues to Bitcoin from being this multi-token thing...

1777
01:45:00,667 --> 01:45:03,667
...that has sidechain...

1778
01:45:03,667 --> 01:45:06,667
...sidechain properties and features.

1779
01:45:09,667 --> 01:45:12,667
So, yes.

1780
01:45:12,667 --> 01:45:15,667
And what can a node do to prevent the miners voting no?

1781
01:45:15,667 --> 01:45:18,667
There is one thing they can do, and luckily...

1782
01:45:18,667 --> 01:45:21,667
...it has beautiful properties.

1783
01:45:21,667 --> 01:45:24,667
Which is that it also does not affect anyone who doesn't opt in to this thing.

1784
01:45:24,667 --> 01:45:27,667
So you opt in to spending your coins...

1785
01:45:27,667 --> 01:45:30,667
...and moving them to the L2 blockchain...

1786
01:45:30,667 --> 01:45:33,667
...the BIP300 sidechain.

1787
01:45:33,667 --> 01:45:36,667
You can further, if the miner tries to steal...

1788
01:45:36,667 --> 01:45:39,667
...you can further opt in to trying to UASF to saying...

1789
01:45:39,667 --> 01:45:42,667
...if this transaction ID that's stealing the coins is included in a block...

1790
01:45:42,667 --> 01:45:45,667
...then I will invalidate the block.

1791
01:45:45,667 --> 01:45:48,667
So you can further try that.

1792
01:45:48,667 --> 01:45:51,667
And that may be an effective deterrent to the miners...

1793
01:45:51,667 --> 01:45:54,667
...because they may think, oh no...

1794
01:45:54,667 --> 01:45:57,667
...the nodes will reject the block with the theft...

1795
01:45:57,667 --> 01:46:00,667
...so it's not going to work, and then they may give up.

1796
01:46:00,667 --> 01:46:03,667
The cool thing is though, even if they don't give up...

1797
01:46:03,667 --> 01:46:06,667
...and lots of people do this...

1798
01:46:06,667 --> 01:46:09,667
...those people who tried to UASF to block the theft...

1799
01:46:09,667 --> 01:46:12,667
...they...

1800
01:46:12,667 --> 01:46:15,667
...they are forked onto their own...

1801
01:46:15,667 --> 01:46:18,667
...they are the ones who are on a minority chain with no hash rate.

1802
01:46:18,667 --> 01:46:21,667
So they know that they lost...

1803
01:46:21,667 --> 01:46:24,667
...and then they just have to admit that they lost...

1804
01:46:24,667 --> 01:46:27,667
...and then they go back onto the regular chain.

1805
01:46:27,667 --> 01:46:30,667
So it's very good, because it does not affect any of the other people...

1806
01:46:30,667 --> 01:46:33,667
...who...

1807
01:46:33,667 --> 01:46:36,667
...who may not want to care about this sidechain drama...

1808
01:46:36,667 --> 01:46:39,667
...which is the whole point, is that they should not have to care...

1809
01:46:39,667 --> 01:46:42,667
...about any sidechains that they're not personally interested in.

1810
01:46:42,667 --> 01:46:45,667
It should be like apps on an iPhone.

1811
01:46:45,667 --> 01:46:48,667
Okay, thanks for answering.

1812
01:46:48,667 --> 01:46:51,667
Yes, my pleasure.

1813
01:46:51,667 --> 01:46:54,667
Are you certain that we know how best to implement BIP300?

1814
01:46:54,667 --> 01:46:57,667
If you're talking about the lines of code...

1815
01:46:57,667 --> 01:47:00,667
...then I would say I'm certain that I am not.

1816
01:47:00,667 --> 01:47:03,667
I don't know the best way.

1817
01:47:03,667 --> 01:47:06,667
I have already coded...

1818
01:47:06,667 --> 01:47:09,667
...we have demo software, so we have a version where it works...

1819
01:47:09,667 --> 01:47:12,667
...but that doesn't mean it is the best way that conforms...

1820
01:47:12,667 --> 01:47:15,667
...to all Bitcoin Core's idiosyncratic...

1821
01:47:15,667 --> 01:47:18,667
...little style guide and other things...

1822
01:47:18,667 --> 01:47:21,667
...that is the best for a long-term code review.

1823
01:47:21,667 --> 01:47:24,667
And I certainly do not consider myself an expert in C++...

1824
01:47:24,667 --> 01:47:27,667
...and I certainly do not...

1825
01:47:27,667 --> 01:47:30,667
...I don't really want to do it...

1826
01:47:30,667 --> 01:47:33,667
...without adult supervision, so to speak, which is why we hired Luke...

1827
01:47:33,667 --> 01:47:36,667
...to help us prepare the pull request...

1828
01:47:36,667 --> 01:47:39,667
...because Luke is, of course, a genius and he knows...

1829
01:47:39,667 --> 01:47:42,667
...every version of Bitcoin Core, I think, back to front...

1830
01:47:42,667 --> 01:47:45,667
...and I think that is partly why we paid him...

1831
01:47:45,667 --> 01:47:48,667
...to help us prepare the BIP300 pull request...

1832
01:47:48,667 --> 01:47:51,667
...which is, of course, only a request...

1833
01:47:51,667 --> 01:47:54,667
...and he...

1834
01:47:54,667 --> 01:47:57,667
...I think this is a good idea, though, because...

1835
01:47:57,667 --> 01:48:00,667
...if people see the actual details...

1836
01:48:00,667 --> 01:48:03,667
...I think if you read the BIP and look at the code, it looks a lot less...

1837
01:48:03,667 --> 01:48:06,667
...it looks very harmless.

1838
01:48:06,667 --> 01:48:09,667
It's just spending your own coins to a script that unlocks...

1839
01:48:09,667 --> 01:48:12,667
...with these super confirmation things.

1840
01:48:12,667 --> 01:48:15,667
No, it doesn't look harmless. People look at the benevolent dictator part...

1841
01:48:15,667 --> 01:48:18,667
...and they're like, oh, this guy's trying to centralize Bitcoin.

1842
01:48:18,667 --> 01:48:21,667
Well, that's for the L2s.

1843
01:48:21,667 --> 01:48:24,667
That's not the L1, so maybe that is a misunderstanding...

1844
01:48:24,667 --> 01:48:27,667
...so maybe I should reword that part.

1845
01:48:27,667 --> 01:48:30,667
But I think, if I can explain what I'm getting at with that...

1846
01:48:30,667 --> 01:48:33,667
...is that it's much better...

1847
01:48:33,667 --> 01:48:36,667
...if you go to a hotel, there's someone who owns the hotel...

1848
01:48:36,667 --> 01:48:39,667
...and there's someone who manages the hotel, right?

1849
01:48:39,667 --> 01:48:42,667
You don't go to the hotel and then everyone sits down and they say, let's vote on...

1850
01:48:42,667 --> 01:48:45,667
...how late the pool is going to be open and whether or not we're going to have...

1851
01:48:45,667 --> 01:48:48,667
...how much the mini-bar drinks should cost, right?

1852
01:48:48,667 --> 01:48:51,667
Vlad, that's not how it works.

1853
01:48:51,667 --> 01:48:54,667
Is that correct?

1854
01:48:54,667 --> 01:48:57,667
It's like a restaurant.

1855
01:48:58,667 --> 01:49:01,667
There's a head waiter, there's an owner...

1856
01:49:01,667 --> 01:49:04,667
And there's a menu. You don't get to decide what's on the menu or how much it costs.

1857
01:49:04,667 --> 01:49:07,667
But you get to choose.

1858
01:49:07,667 --> 01:49:10,667
You get to go to another place that you don't like.

1859
01:49:10,667 --> 01:49:13,667
Precisely, exactly. So that's what I mean by that.

1860
01:49:13,667 --> 01:49:16,667
I hope I didn't trigger too many people in a misleading way...

1861
01:49:16,667 --> 01:49:19,667
...with the benevolent dictator thing.

1862
01:49:19,667 --> 01:49:22,667
But I think usually the benevolent dictator phrase is honestly thrown around...

1863
01:49:22,667 --> 01:49:25,667
...in a positive way.

1864
01:49:26,667 --> 01:49:29,667
It's used to refer to...

1865
01:49:29,667 --> 01:49:32,667
Many open source projects have that phrase attached to them.

1866
01:49:32,667 --> 01:49:35,667
And I think that is better than...

1867
01:49:35,667 --> 01:49:38,667
That is good.

1868
01:49:38,667 --> 01:49:41,667
Because you want someone who has a vision.

1869
01:49:41,667 --> 01:49:44,667
I think that's the best of all worlds.

1870
01:49:44,667 --> 01:49:47,667
Where you have benevolent dictators but they can't stop you from leaving.

1871
01:49:47,667 --> 01:49:50,667
I think that's the best of all possible worlds.

1872
01:49:50,667 --> 01:49:53,667
And not just that, you have options.

1873
01:49:53,667 --> 01:49:56,667
Because that's also what matters.

1874
01:49:56,667 --> 01:49:59,667
Of course, if you have only one option...

1875
01:49:59,667 --> 01:50:02,667
They can be like, you can leave anytime you want but you don't really have a choice.

1876
01:50:02,667 --> 01:50:05,667
Yeah, it's not a practical option.

1877
01:50:05,667 --> 01:50:08,667
I agree with you.

1878
01:50:08,667 --> 01:50:11,667
It's like Yuletown in every European city.

1879
01:50:11,667 --> 01:50:14,667
You have lots of pubs, lots of restaurants.

1880
01:50:14,667 --> 01:50:17,667
You get to pick your price range.

1881
01:50:18,667 --> 01:50:21,667
You get to pick your cleanliness standard, I guess.

1882
01:50:21,667 --> 01:50:24,667
Of course.

1883
01:50:24,667 --> 01:50:27,667
What kind of people you want to have around.

1884
01:50:27,667 --> 01:50:30,667
Yeah, is it a country club?

1885
01:50:30,667 --> 01:50:33,667
Or is it a CD?

1886
01:50:33,667 --> 01:50:36,667
Yeah, of course.

1887
01:50:36,667 --> 01:50:39,667
Is it no frills or whatever they call it?

1888
01:50:39,667 --> 01:50:42,667
Unpretentious?

1889
01:50:42,667 --> 01:50:45,667
Yeah, that's the idea.

1890
01:50:46,667 --> 01:50:49,667
But I think the main issue...

1891
01:50:49,667 --> 01:50:52,667
If we get rid of metaphors and stuff like this.

1892
01:50:52,667 --> 01:50:55,667
I think most people are afraid of miners.

1893
01:50:55,667 --> 01:50:58,667
And I had this discussion today.

1894
01:50:58,667 --> 01:51:01,667
With someone on Twitter who told me...

1895
01:51:01,667 --> 01:51:04,667
If Drivechains get activated by the miners...

1896
01:51:04,667 --> 01:51:07,667
Then we're going to fork off and create the real Bitcoin.

1897
01:51:07,667 --> 01:51:10,667
And I was like, so what kind of guarantee do you have that...

1898
01:51:10,667 --> 01:51:13,667
You're going to have the real Bitcoin?

1899
01:51:13,667 --> 01:51:16,667
It's going to be in a minority hash rate chain.

1900
01:51:16,667 --> 01:51:19,667
And that one is likely to get 51% attacked also.

1901
01:51:19,667 --> 01:51:22,667
By the same miners you dislike.

1902
01:51:22,667 --> 01:51:25,667
And whom you're disrespecting if you do that.

1903
01:51:25,667 --> 01:51:28,667
So that's a possibility.

1904
01:51:28,667 --> 01:51:31,667
So how can you prevent it?

1905
01:51:31,667 --> 01:51:34,667
No, Bitcoin is for virtuous people.

1906
01:51:34,667 --> 01:51:37,667
No, Bitcoin is a greed system.

1907
01:51:37,667 --> 01:51:40,667
Bitcoin is all about incentives.

1908
01:51:40,667 --> 01:51:43,667
Think about how infrequently we actually see 51% attack.

1909
01:51:43,667 --> 01:51:46,667
So for example, Bitcoin SV, the price is much less than 1%.

1910
01:51:46,667 --> 01:51:49,667
Which means that the hash rate is much less than 1%.

1911
01:51:49,667 --> 01:51:52,667
And yet we don't really...

1912
01:51:52,667 --> 01:51:55,667
I think there was once or twice.

1913
01:51:55,667 --> 01:51:58,667
But we really don't see it that often, do we?

1914
01:51:58,667 --> 01:52:01,667
Isn't that interesting?

1915
01:52:01,667 --> 01:52:04,667
So I think that it is not necessarily the case...

1916
01:52:04,667 --> 01:52:07,667
Bitcoin is not powered by virtue.

1917
01:52:07,667 --> 01:52:10,667
But it's not blind to ethics either.

1918
01:52:10,667 --> 01:52:13,667
I think there is an ethical dimension to people where...

1919
01:52:16,667 --> 01:52:19,667
Most people actually I think obey the rules.

1920
01:52:19,667 --> 01:52:22,667
As long as one important condition is met.

1921
01:52:22,667 --> 01:52:25,667
Which is that they don't want to look around and see other people breaking the
rules.

1922
01:52:25,667 --> 01:52:28,667
And getting away with it.

1923
01:52:28,667 --> 01:52:31,667
So actually everyone is willing to obey certain rules.

1924
01:52:31,667 --> 01:52:34,667
This is my philosophy on life.

1925
01:52:34,667 --> 01:52:37,667
Maybe I should directly comment on the idea of...

1926
01:52:37,667 --> 01:52:40,667
So you're right that this thing of resisting the minor soft fork...

1927
01:52:44,667 --> 01:52:47,667
That is in practice actually a hard fork for them.

1928
01:52:47,667 --> 01:52:50,667
In the sense that it does the same thing that Bitcoin Cash does.

1929
01:52:50,667 --> 01:52:53,667
Where everyone who upgraded, but no one else...

1930
01:52:53,667 --> 01:52:56,667
Is put on their own network.

1931
01:52:56,667 --> 01:52:59,667
Which is not good.

1932
01:52:59,667 --> 01:53:02,667
Because you have a lot of indifferent people always.

1933
01:53:02,667 --> 01:53:05,667
You have people who upgrade, people who are indifferent.

1934
01:53:05,667 --> 01:53:08,667
And then the people who counter upgrade.

1935
01:53:08,667 --> 01:53:11,667
People who reject BIP300.

1936
01:53:14,667 --> 01:53:17,667
That last group is carved off and they're on their own network.

1937
01:53:17,667 --> 01:53:20,667
And they don't have, as you say, by definition...

1938
01:53:20,667 --> 01:53:23,667
They probably don't have the hash rate.

1939
01:53:23,667 --> 01:53:26,667
But I don't think that is why it's a bad idea.

1940
01:53:26,667 --> 01:53:29,667
I think it's a bad idea because BIP300 doesn't do anything bad to you.

1941
01:53:30,667 --> 01:53:33,667
If it activates on the Bitcoin Core blockchain.

1942
01:53:33,667 --> 01:53:36,667
You can run...

1943
01:53:36,667 --> 01:53:39,667
Luke doesn't agree with...

1944
01:53:39,667 --> 01:53:42,667
And Luke and Adam don't agree with this.

1945
01:53:42,667 --> 01:53:45,667
I've had this conversation with them once every few months for a long time.

1946
01:53:45,667 --> 01:53:48,667
I still don't understand their point of view.

1947
01:53:48,667 --> 01:53:51,667
I would still like to understand their point of view.

1948
01:53:51,667 --> 01:53:54,667
I'm giving it my best try.

1949
01:53:54,667 --> 01:53:57,667
I don't think they're right.

1950
01:53:58,667 --> 01:54:01,667
The old node that does not enforce BIP300.

1951
01:54:01,667 --> 01:54:04,667
It will not even notice that BIP300 has activated.

1952
01:54:04,667 --> 01:54:07,667
The only thing that will happen is you'll see OPNAP5 being used.

1953
01:54:07,667 --> 01:54:10,667
And that a lot of coins might be in there.

1954
01:54:10,667 --> 01:54:13,667
But other than that, nothing will happen to you.

1955
01:54:13,667 --> 01:54:16,667
So it's a completely victimless crime.

1956
01:54:16,667 --> 01:54:19,667
So that is the real reason why they shouldn't do it.

1957
01:54:19,667 --> 01:54:22,667
It's because they have some kind of paranoid belief that is incorrect.

1958
01:54:22,667 --> 01:54:25,667
I feel if these people...

1959
01:54:26,667 --> 01:54:29,667
I feel if these people would read the BIP or read the code.

1960
01:54:29,667 --> 01:54:32,667
I think they would see if they would read the code.

1961
01:54:32,667 --> 01:54:35,667
And this is why you see people ask.

1962
01:54:35,667 --> 01:54:38,667
There was a bunch of fake drama a few weeks ago about MEV.

1963
01:54:38,667 --> 01:54:41,667
And Drivechain.

1964
01:54:41,667 --> 01:54:44,667
Which I can talk about if you wish.

1965
01:54:44,667 --> 01:54:47,667
But you can see that Michael Tidwell asked Luke Dashjr.

1966
01:54:47,667 --> 01:54:50,667
Who is the one working on the pull request.

1967
01:54:50,667 --> 01:54:53,667
So he knows.

1968
01:54:53,667 --> 01:54:56,667
He knows that there is a risk of minor centralization or MEV.

1969
01:54:56,667 --> 01:54:59,667
Because of BIP300. And Luke just says no.

1970
01:54:59,667 --> 01:55:02,667
Because there really isn't.

1971
01:55:02,667 --> 01:55:05,667
Under the hood it is just a thing that you...

1972
01:55:05,667 --> 01:55:08,667
It's a type of script you spend Bitcoin to.

1973
01:55:08,667 --> 01:55:11,667
I think people...

1974
01:55:11,667 --> 01:55:14,667
They look at something from too far away.

1975
01:55:14,667 --> 01:55:17,667
They see it in this abstract lens.

1976
01:55:17,667 --> 01:55:20,667
It's bringing shitcoinery to Bitcoin or something.

1977
01:55:20,667 --> 01:55:23,667
But if they read the code.

1978
01:55:23,667 --> 01:55:26,667
They would see exactly the details of what it does.

1979
01:55:26,667 --> 01:55:29,667
And they would see that it is not...

1980
01:55:29,667 --> 01:55:32,667
It doesn't do these things. I think it does.

1981
01:55:32,667 --> 01:55:35,667
It doesn't do anything bad to the people on L1.

1982
01:55:35,667 --> 01:55:38,667
Who aren't using it.

1983
01:55:38,667 --> 01:55:41,667
Makes sense.

1984
01:55:41,667 --> 01:55:44,667
My cat got inside the room and he is erratic.

1985
01:55:44,667 --> 01:55:47,667
I don't know what he wants.

1986
01:55:48,667 --> 01:55:51,667
But let me play the last ad for the show.

1987
01:55:51,667 --> 01:55:54,667
And then we can come back and comment on Hadlonaut's tweets.

1988
01:55:54,667 --> 01:55:57,667
I think that's a good way to end this interview.

1989
01:55:57,667 --> 01:56:00,667
Because I like Hadlonaut.

1990
01:56:00,667 --> 01:56:03,667
I consider him a good friend.

1991
01:56:03,667 --> 01:56:06,667
I know him in person.

1992
01:56:06,667 --> 01:56:09,667
But at the same time I feel like his comments were very poorly informed.

1993
01:56:09,667 --> 01:56:12,667
And he influenced a lot of people indirectly.

1994
01:56:12,667 --> 01:56:15,667
By being in principle against any kind of change.

1995
01:56:16,667 --> 01:56:19,667
And saying that anything is a possible attack and we should be careful.

1996
01:56:19,667 --> 01:56:22,667
But I'm not sure he really understands what this is about.

1997
01:56:22,667 --> 01:56:25,667
And I don't want to sound condescending.

1998
01:56:25,667 --> 01:56:28,667
Let me play the ad and we can get back to this.

1999
01:56:46,667 --> 01:56:49,667
Get the latest iPhone.

2000
01:56:49,667 --> 01:56:52,667
Upgrade your computer.

2001
01:56:52,667 --> 01:56:55,667
Buy something sexy for your new girlfriend.

2002
01:56:55,667 --> 01:56:58,667
Book a trip to El Salvador through the Travel Hacking Service.

2003
01:56:58,667 --> 01:57:01,667
And also grab a copy of the latest Bitcoin Takeover magazine to read in the
airplane.

2004
01:57:01,667 --> 01:57:04,667
Everything is integrated with a familiar shopping experience that doesn't track you.

2005
01:57:04,667 --> 01:57:07,667
And deletes your data after the order gets completed.

2006
01:57:07,667 --> 01:57:10,667
You also get a 3% discount if you pay in Bitcoin.

2007
01:57:10,667 --> 01:57:13,667
Try Shop and Bid today.

2008
01:57:13,667 --> 01:57:16,667
Or you can go to BTC-TKVR for a 5 euro discount on your first order.

2009
01:57:22,667 --> 01:57:25,667
Okay, so before I show the tweets.

2010
01:57:25,667 --> 01:57:28,667
Let me ask you this.

2011
01:57:28,667 --> 01:57:31,667
What is the worst possible comment that you received?

2012
01:57:31,667 --> 01:57:34,667
And made you wonder what the hell am I even doing here?

2013
01:57:34,667 --> 01:57:37,667
Why do I bother?

2014
01:57:37,667 --> 01:57:40,667
Well, the Vortex one was really weird.

2015
01:57:40,667 --> 01:57:43,667
He had gone out of his way to make every single part of every sentence.

2016
01:57:43,667 --> 01:57:46,667
Be like the opposite of something.

2017
01:57:46,667 --> 01:57:49,667
So that I was really like.

2018
01:57:49,667 --> 01:57:52,667
But those types of things don't really bother me as much.

2019
01:57:52,667 --> 01:57:55,667
Like if they're completely wrong.

2020
01:57:55,667 --> 01:57:58,667
Then I just think something got to this person like a long time ago.

2021
01:57:58,667 --> 01:58:01,667
Or like, you know, something like intercepted this person.

2022
01:58:01,667 --> 01:58:04,667
And you know what I mean?

2023
01:58:04,667 --> 01:58:07,667
Like what if someone came up to you and they started saying.

2024
01:58:08,667 --> 01:58:11,667
You know, like a giant spiders and costumes or something.

2025
01:58:11,667 --> 01:58:14,667
You'd just be like, okay, whatever.

2026
01:58:14,667 --> 01:58:17,667
You know what I mean?

2027
01:58:17,667 --> 01:58:20,667
Like it's not even that disturbing because you just think.

2028
01:58:20,667 --> 01:58:23,667
It's so weird that you just think that's not going to actually impact the world.

2029
01:58:23,667 --> 01:58:26,667
I think what is the worst?

2030
01:58:26,667 --> 01:58:29,667
Like what is the most actually demoralizing thing?

2031
01:58:29,667 --> 01:58:32,667
I think that's hard to say.

2032
01:58:32,667 --> 01:58:35,667
I'm going to have to think about that.

2033
01:58:36,667 --> 01:58:39,667
I'm trying to think.

2034
01:58:39,667 --> 01:58:42,667
I don't really normally sort in my head like most demoralizing thing.

2035
01:58:42,667 --> 01:58:45,667
I think the most demoralizing thing.

2036
01:58:45,667 --> 01:58:48,667
Well, one thing that is demoralizing is.

2037
01:58:48,667 --> 01:58:51,667
It sucks to look at the numbers when someone makes a tweet.

2038
01:58:51,667 --> 01:58:54,667
And then they have the numbers like the like retweet view number.

2039
01:58:54,667 --> 01:58:57,667
And then you really.

2040
01:58:57,667 --> 01:59:00,667
You spend a couple minutes thinking about.

2041
01:59:00,667 --> 01:59:03,667
Okay, how can I write like a really good response that's like polite.

2042
01:59:03,667 --> 01:59:06,667
That takes the person seriously and assumes good faith.

2043
01:59:06,667 --> 01:59:09,667
But you're thinking every time, every minute you do that,

2044
01:59:09,667 --> 01:59:12,667
the view number is going up and you are not going to get the same.

2045
01:59:12,667 --> 01:59:15,667
Amount of views on your response.

2046
01:59:15,667 --> 01:59:18,667
So if someone will do a thing, they get whatever,

2047
01:59:18,667 --> 01:59:21,667
they get some nonsensical thing and they get 90,000 views.

2048
01:59:21,667 --> 01:59:24,667
And then I'll write the thing, the reply.

2049
01:59:24,667 --> 01:59:27,667
The reply can only get.

2050
01:59:27,667 --> 01:59:30,667
You know, at best one 10th or maybe even a hundredth.

2051
01:59:30,667 --> 01:59:33,667
So, of course, any informed person will be reading for the back and forth.

2052
01:59:33,667 --> 01:59:36,667
But at the same time, you do kind of think like.

2053
01:59:36,667 --> 01:59:39,667
You kind of think like.

2054
01:59:39,667 --> 01:59:42,667
What is, should I, should I even reply here?

2055
01:59:42,667 --> 01:59:45,667
Which the answer is probably no.

2056
01:59:45,667 --> 01:59:48,667
Probably not on Twitter, but whatever.

2057
01:59:48,667 --> 01:59:51,667
It is what it is.

2058
01:59:51,667 --> 01:59:54,667
I think at first I think I did owe people a little something because the.

2059
01:59:54,667 --> 01:59:57,667
I'm glad you've disappeared again.

2060
01:59:58,667 --> 02:00:01,667
You know, people a little something because of Luke's pull request.

2061
02:00:01,667 --> 02:00:04,667
So I thought I'll go on Twitter and answer people's questions.

2062
02:00:04,667 --> 02:00:07,667
I think one thing that's disappointing is so few,

2063
02:00:07,667 --> 02:00:10,667
so many people just presume that like they have a.

2064
02:00:10,667 --> 02:00:13,667
They just think that.

2065
02:00:13,667 --> 02:00:16,667
Like, OK, sometimes I'll ask people like.

2066
02:00:16,667 --> 02:00:19,667
What is why?

2067
02:00:19,667 --> 02:00:21,667
Why don't you like this idea?

2068
02:00:21,667 --> 02:00:24,667
And they'll just like in a DM or something and they'll just say,

2069
02:00:24,667 --> 02:00:27,667
I don't even want to talk to you or whatever.

2070
02:00:27,667 --> 02:00:30,667
And you're like, OK, like, well.

2071
02:00:30,667 --> 02:00:33,667
Sometimes I feel like screenshotting those and I just tweet those.

2072
02:00:33,667 --> 02:00:36,667
I feel like sometimes I just like I'll be like, this is what I'm dealing with.

2073
02:00:36,667 --> 02:00:39,667
You know.

2074
02:00:39,667 --> 02:00:42,667
Now, let me share the screen on this particular tweet.

2075
02:00:42,667 --> 02:00:45,667
I think it echoes with the feelings of a lot of Bitcoiners.

2076
02:00:45,667 --> 02:00:48,667
And it's important to discuss this.

2077
02:00:48,667 --> 02:00:51,667
So how low not says.

2078
02:00:51,667 --> 02:00:54,667
And this was from three days ago.

2079
02:00:54,667 --> 02:00:57,667
Almost the more I read about BIP300,

2080
02:00:57,667 --> 02:01:00,667
the more it seems like a great way to introduce enormous amounts of

2081
02:01:00,667 --> 02:01:03,667
grift, complexity, risk and shit.

2082
02:01:03,667 --> 02:01:06,667
Coinesque functionality into the Bitcoin.

2083
02:01:06,667 --> 02:01:09,667
Not a fan.

2084
02:01:09,667 --> 02:01:12,667
And that's on top of my main sentiment that we should be extremely wary

2085
02:01:12,667 --> 02:01:15,667
of any change.

2086
02:01:15,667 --> 02:01:18,667
And this one got almost 500.

2087
02:01:18,667 --> 02:01:21,667
Not as many as the Vortex one, but still,

2088
02:01:21,667 --> 02:01:24,667
I think this resonates with a lot of people in the community.

2089
02:01:24,667 --> 02:01:27,667
Right.

2090
02:01:27,667 --> 02:01:30,667
But of course, isn't it bizarre, though,

2091
02:01:30,667 --> 02:01:33,667
because it's like this the original sidechain idea from Blockstream is

2092
02:01:33,667 --> 02:01:36,667
that's now referred to as shit, coinesque functionality or grift.

2093
02:01:36,667 --> 02:01:39,667
So that means that everyone who wrote the sidechains white paper,

2094
02:01:39,667 --> 02:01:42,667
Peter Weil, Greg Maxwell, whatever,

2095
02:01:42,667 --> 02:01:45,667
like those people are all which the sidechains white paper from

2096
02:01:45,667 --> 02:01:48,667
Blockstream has a section about issuing like assets and tokens,

2097
02:01:48,667 --> 02:01:51,667
as does the liquid sidechain, as I later point out to.

2098
02:01:51,667 --> 02:01:54,667
Well,

2099
02:01:54,667 --> 02:01:57,667
liquid has as one of its use cases issuing assets,

2100
02:01:57,667 --> 02:02:00,667
confidential assets.

2101
02:02:00,667 --> 02:02:03,667
Blockstream was all proud of that in January,

2102
02:02:03,667 --> 02:02:06,667
2017 or whatever, when they released that.

2103
02:02:06,667 --> 02:02:09,667
They were still proud in 2019 during Baltic Honey Badger.

2104
02:02:09,667 --> 02:02:12,667
Right.

2105
02:02:12,667 --> 02:02:15,667
I learned Ripple and stuff like that.

2106
02:02:15,667 --> 02:02:18,667
So, yeah, it makes a lot of sense.

2107
02:02:18,667 --> 02:02:21,667
I remember people doing ICOs on liquid in 2020.

2108
02:02:21,667 --> 02:02:24,667
I mean, just for fun,

2109
02:02:24,667 --> 02:02:27,667
Samsung now actually did a real one and raised funds for a video game,

2110
02:02:27,667 --> 02:02:30,667
which I'm not sure it came out.

2111
02:02:30,667 --> 02:02:33,667
But anyway,

2112
02:02:33,667 --> 02:02:36,667
my point is that there was this culture shift where I think people

2113
02:02:36,667 --> 02:02:39,667
became too radicalized and forgot that all of these tokens were

2114
02:02:39,667 --> 02:02:42,667
objects.

2115
02:02:42,667 --> 02:02:45,667
And everything started from colored coins and counterparty.

2116
02:02:45,667 --> 02:02:48,667
And the reason why they did not continue on Bitcoin was because they

2117
02:02:48,667 --> 02:02:51,667
wanted to find a more scalable way to do it.

2118
02:02:51,667 --> 02:02:54,667
I think that was the reason.

2119
02:02:54,667 --> 02:02:57,667
The fees, the speed and stuff like that.

2120
02:02:57,667 --> 02:03:00,667
They experimented with whatever.

2121
02:03:00,667 --> 02:03:03,667
In the beginning, it was NXT, I think.

2122
02:03:03,667 --> 02:03:06,667
And also Omni was on Bitcoin.

2123
02:03:06,667 --> 02:03:09,667
And somehow Ethereum ended up getting part of that share

2124
02:03:09,667 --> 02:03:12,667
and becoming dominant for what it does.

2125
02:03:12,667 --> 02:03:15,667
But it's still interesting

2126
02:03:15,667 --> 02:03:18,667
how we ended up with a situation where these use cases

2127
02:03:18,667 --> 02:03:21,667
that were all along meant for Bitcoin to develop

2128
02:03:21,667 --> 02:03:24,667
are now being rejected.

2129
02:03:24,667 --> 02:03:27,667
The fact that you would even do it

2130
02:03:27,667 --> 02:03:30,667
in a way that doesn't harm L1, that's not good enough even.

2131
02:03:30,667 --> 02:03:33,667
It's like not even a trade-off.

2132
02:03:33,667 --> 02:03:36,667
I don't know. I don't understand it.

2133
02:03:36,667 --> 02:03:39,667
People bet on Taro and RGB that these are going to be the solutions.

2134
02:03:39,667 --> 02:03:42,667
But the reason why they cannot be the solutions

2135
02:03:42,667 --> 02:03:45,667
is that their investors,

2136
02:03:45,667 --> 02:03:48,667
like institutions that create stuff on Ethereum,

2137
02:03:48,667 --> 02:03:51,667
they don't care much about the fundamentals of the network.

2138
02:03:51,667 --> 02:03:54,667
They just wanted to build stuff because it helps them

2139
02:03:54,667 --> 02:03:57,667
evade some regulations.

2140
02:03:57,667 --> 02:04:00,667
And I can understand that frustration that they have.

2141
02:04:00,667 --> 02:04:03,667
They want to build stuff without having to file a lot of paperwork.

2142
02:04:03,667 --> 02:04:06,667
As a libertarian, I guess it makes sense.

2143
02:04:06,667 --> 02:04:09,667
But they don't want to rewrite the entire codebase from scratch.

2144
02:04:09,667 --> 02:04:12,667
And that's kind of the point.

2145
02:04:12,667 --> 02:04:15,667
If they want to switch to Taro or RGB

2146
02:04:15,667 --> 02:04:18,667
or whatever layer-free on Bitcoin,

2147
02:04:18,667 --> 02:04:21,667
they have to rewrite the entire codebase and relaunch everything.

2148
02:04:21,667 --> 02:04:24,667
And that's going to be maybe a few million dollars in development

2149
02:04:24,667 --> 02:04:27,667
and testing.

2150
02:04:27,667 --> 02:04:30,667
I agree with you. That's another reason why people will not switch quickly

2151
02:04:30,667 --> 02:04:33,667
is that it's just the ERC-20 standard

2152
02:04:33,667 --> 02:04:36,667
or whatever the standard is, that you're completely right

2153
02:04:36,667 --> 02:04:39,667
that people want something that facilitates easier comparison.

2154
02:04:39,667 --> 02:04:42,667
They want to say,

2155
02:04:42,667 --> 02:04:45,667
we are doing the same token that other people are doing.

2156
02:04:45,667 --> 02:04:48,667
They don't want it to be like a custom thing from scratch

2157
02:04:48,667 --> 02:04:51,667
because then it has all this extra new risk for no reason.

2158
02:04:51,667 --> 02:04:54,667
They want everything to be specialization of labor.

2159
02:04:55,612 --> 02:05:22,612
I can say something else also. There's one thing that I would say, which is that
there's the Blockstream white paper. It has in it a mistake. It has this part about
centralization of mining, which if you cut through all the wording and you refactor
it, it basically says something

2160
02:05:22,612 --> 02:05:32,372
like, sidechains may be bad because whenever miners earn more money, that is bad.
And so it's

2161
02:05:32,372 --> 02:05:38,132
basically whenever any sidechain merge mining transaction fee is collected by a
miner, that

2162
02:05:38,132 --> 02:05:45,252
that's a bad thing. But that is exactly equal to whenever sidechains are being used,
whenever

2163
02:05:45,252 --> 02:05:49,972
there's actual merge mining, whenever there's actual usage of the sidechain. So they
have

2164
02:05:50,052 --> 02:05:55,652
literally a zero equals one logical statement in that part, which I think
contributed to,

2165
02:05:55,652 --> 02:06:01,172
for some reason, the intellectual elite in Bitcoin deciding that sidechains might be
bad because of

2166
02:06:01,172 --> 02:06:07,732
this reason. The reason ended up being that whenever merge mining sidechains are
used,

2167
02:06:07,732 --> 02:06:16,212
there's a transaction fee that's collected. So that's certainly a weird thing that
has,

2168
02:06:17,172 --> 02:06:22,372
I think, been a headwind for the sidechain idea. And the lack of the sidechain idea
has just

2169
02:06:22,372 --> 02:06:26,292
encouraged people to do all this other stuff. And then as you say, something becomes
a standard,

2170
02:06:26,292 --> 02:06:33,652
and then it has a center of gravity. I mean, I agree that Ethereum is bound to fail
at one point,

2171
02:06:33,652 --> 02:06:40,372
but you need something to fall back on. I mean, not everything that's built on it is
that bad.

2172
02:06:41,332 --> 02:06:46,772
You can argue that you can make improvements, but you want something to move stuff
quickly,

2173
02:06:46,772 --> 02:06:51,412
to have a transition. And you don't want that transition to happen on Tron or
whatever. I think

2174
02:06:51,412 --> 02:06:57,972
that's stupid, makes no sense. I think that we have to point out two important
things.

2175
02:06:58,772 --> 02:07:08,372
One of them is that, let's see, how should I explain this? What were we just talking
about?

2176
02:07:08,372 --> 02:07:11,412
I already lost my train of thought now. Damn it. This was really important.

2177
02:07:12,292 --> 02:07:18,932
It was about hoarding contracts in a very seamless way from Ethereum to some Bitcoin
layer,

2178
02:07:19,572 --> 02:07:22,292
sidechain or layer free or whatever.

2179
02:07:22,292 --> 02:07:25,652
What were we talking about before then? I was talking about the Blockstream.

2180
02:07:26,852 --> 02:07:28,692
Oh, that's what you're talking about. Yes.

2181
02:07:28,692 --> 02:07:35,652
What did you say after that? I'll remember it in a second. I promise. What did I
say?

2182
02:07:37,332 --> 02:07:41,332
Anyway, you're focused too much on this idea from 2014.

2183
02:07:42,452 --> 02:07:46,132
Okay. That was one of them though. That was the second one. Okay. The second one is
an

2184
02:07:46,132 --> 02:07:51,492
important point. The second one is that you have to be able to do a lot of things at
the same time.

2185
02:07:51,492 --> 02:07:57,492
It's important to point out, which is that back then, Ethereum was... Okay, good. I
remembered

2186
02:07:57,492 --> 02:08:03,252
them both now. Back then, Ethereum really was much more of a scam. It's very
different. It

2187
02:08:03,252 --> 02:08:11,652
has changed since 2015. Bitcoiners are still thinking about Ethereum in 2023,

2188
02:08:13,252 --> 02:08:19,492
the same way that they're thinking about it in 2015. That is ridiculous. It really
was a scam

2189
02:08:19,492 --> 02:08:23,732
in 2015. Then it was very dumb in 2016, where you had the slocket and you had the
DAO, but you

2190
02:08:23,732 --> 02:08:30,852
had the beginnings of differentiation. Now, after a lot of trial and error and
stuff, it's been

2191
02:08:30,852 --> 02:08:38,692
changing and it's been improving. It's been getting worse in many ways, but they are
using

2192
02:08:38,692 --> 02:08:47,332
trial and error. As Darwinian evolution shows us, trial and error is sufficient for
a couple of tiny

2193
02:08:47,332 --> 02:08:53,732
molecules to take over an entire planet, given enough time. Now, the second thing to
point out is

2194
02:08:54,372 --> 02:08:59,092
another thing that is different from 2014 to present, which is in the past,

2195
02:09:01,092 --> 02:09:09,652
it's certainly the case that Greg Maxwell, Luke Jr., all these people, I believe
that in 2014,

2196
02:09:09,652 --> 02:09:15,492
they knew everything there was to know about every altcoin project.

2197
02:09:16,692 --> 02:09:20,052
I think Greg Maxwell really knew everything about Ethereum in 2014.

2198
02:09:21,892 --> 02:09:28,372
Today, I think the elite Bitcoin intelligentsia and elite Bitcoin technical minds,

2199
02:09:28,372 --> 02:09:33,572
I think they purposely avoid looking at Ethereum, so I think they know nothing about
it.

2200
02:09:33,572 --> 02:09:37,652
They know literally nothing about it. If they went to an ETH technical conference,

2201
02:09:37,652 --> 02:09:41,092
they wouldn't even know what the words meant. They wouldn't know any of the issues,

2202
02:09:42,132 --> 02:09:47,252
and maybe you could say, well, who cares? But the problem with that is now we're
really flying

2203
02:09:47,252 --> 02:09:52,612
completely blind because you don't know if someone has some really great idea
somewhere

2204
02:09:53,732 --> 02:09:58,372
because you're not looking. That's another thing that's really different. I think
when I

2205
02:09:58,372 --> 02:10:01,972
first got involved with Bitcoin, I really think that Greg Maxwell knew everything
about every

2206
02:10:01,972 --> 02:10:06,532
altcoin, and Andrew Polstra, they knew everything about every altcoin and why it was
a dumb idea.

2207
02:10:06,532 --> 02:10:15,892
Now, I think they know less than 0.1% about the whole wider design space, and I
think even that

2208
02:10:15,892 --> 02:10:21,172
it's not even possible. I feel like I know a very little percent of what's going on
in the

2209
02:10:21,172 --> 02:10:26,052
Bitcoin technical world. Probably there's plenty of people in the Ethereum technical
world who

2210
02:10:26,052 --> 02:10:31,972
think that they know more than most, which is going to be like 1% or 2%, so no one
can know.

2211
02:10:32,932 --> 02:10:38,532
Well, I wouldn't say that this is ignorance or bad faith. It's just that in 2014,
2015,

2212
02:10:38,532 --> 02:10:43,492
there was less stuff happening, and now there's too much stuff happening, and some
people are

2213
02:10:43,492 --> 02:10:48,132
concerned that we have too many soft fork proposals at the same time because in the
past,

2214
02:10:48,132 --> 02:10:52,692
we started with SegWit, and then it was obvious that we're going to add Schnorr
signatures of

2215
02:10:52,692 --> 02:10:57,252
sorts, and then we had Taproot. There was consensus for that. It has been expected,

2216
02:10:57,332 --> 02:11:01,652
but now we have three or four of them at the same time, and people are confused,

2217
02:11:01,652 --> 02:11:05,252
and they're like, what the hell? But this is actually decentralization at play.

2218
02:11:05,812 --> 02:11:10,692
This is what you should be expecting, not the same five, six people proposing all

2219
02:11:11,252 --> 02:11:14,132
improvements. You have different teams, different ideas.

2220
02:11:14,132 --> 02:11:20,132
In particular, I agree with you completely, but the crucial thing is that we should
have something

2221
02:11:20,132 --> 02:11:24,772
where something like sidechains doesn't have to be BIP300 necessarily, but we should
have something

2222
02:11:25,412 --> 02:11:31,652
where someone can try an idea on Bitcoin without explaining it to everyone first,

2223
02:11:31,652 --> 02:11:36,852
without consensus, in other words. The consensus is the bad guy because consensus
means you have

2224
02:11:36,852 --> 02:11:45,812
to explain it to every unremarkable person and get everyone to sign off on it. That
is a situation

2225
02:11:45,812 --> 02:11:54,372
where very few people will even want to even introduce an idea into Bitcoin, let
alone research

2226
02:11:54,372 --> 02:11:58,772
all the different ideas that there are. We want people to be really excited and to
be hunting

2227
02:11:58,772 --> 02:12:02,612
ideas, going to the Ethereum conference and saying, oh, maybe I can find an idea and
steal it,

2228
02:12:02,612 --> 02:12:09,252
bring it back to Bitcoin, launch it and be a hero. But there's no way, no one can be
a technical

2229
02:12:09,252 --> 02:12:19,092
hero in Bitcoin if they have to justify their decisions to someone else. Justifying
one's

2230
02:12:19,092 --> 02:12:23,412
decisions is not good, and the way to get away from that is to get away from the
universal

2231
02:12:23,412 --> 02:12:28,132
consensus. The way to do that is to have something like sidechains, where you have

2232
02:12:28,132 --> 02:12:40,772
these places that are experimental, by design experimental. So we don't want to have
something

2233
02:12:40,772 --> 02:12:46,132
where... The problem with having 115 million people vote in an election between two
people

2234
02:12:46,132 --> 02:12:52,612
is kind of the same thing as having to have 115 million people come to consensus on
a soft fork,

2235
02:12:53,492 --> 02:12:57,972
which is that most people are aware that if they put in the time... It's the exact
same

2236
02:12:57,972 --> 02:13:02,132
problem with voting, ironically. If they put in the time to really learn something,

2237
02:13:02,932 --> 02:13:08,372
they're not necessarily going to make any difference. And in fact, it may be worse
for

2238
02:13:08,372 --> 02:13:11,972
them. They may post on Twitter and they may get people making fun of them or
whatever,

2239
02:13:12,772 --> 02:13:16,452
cancelling them. Many of these people, of course, they're in a situation where
they're

2240
02:13:16,452 --> 02:13:20,852
trying to raise money for a startup or something else. They have their own project
that they're

2241
02:13:20,852 --> 02:13:26,452
worried about getting code review for, or they're worried about their own
reputation. And so we have,

2242
02:13:27,012 --> 02:13:32,052
again, as you said before, we Bitcoiners pride ourselves on being so independent and
whatever,

2243
02:13:32,052 --> 02:13:38,292
but really, we are the most spineless and conformist, just like everyone else. And
people

2244
02:13:38,292 --> 02:13:45,252
want to look the other way and they give into peer pressure. And it takes a very
unusually

2245
02:13:45,252 --> 02:13:49,252
stubborn person or unusually wealthy or an unusually intelligent person to just

2246
02:13:50,372 --> 02:13:59,332
beat the peer review, which is overwhelming. So peer review and peer pressure is
basically the

2247
02:13:59,332 --> 02:14:05,092
same thing. And those are not good. And consensus is not good. And consensus is very
hard when you

2248
02:14:05,172 --> 02:14:08,932
have 115 million people. And that's why we probably just shouldn't have any more
soft

2249
02:14:08,932 --> 02:14:15,412
forks. We should just do maybe the existing crop all seem fine to me, but I don't
know how they

2250
02:14:15,412 --> 02:14:20,612
seem to other people. And I think we could do simplicity. I don't know, whatever.
But I think

2251
02:14:24,052 --> 02:14:27,332
simplicity is going to be like five or six years before they even finish simplicity.
So

2252
02:14:28,132 --> 02:14:30,852
I don't know. I don't want to handcuff myself to that.

2253
02:14:30,932 --> 02:14:34,852
But it was not the sales pitch about simplicity that it fits on a t-shirt.

2254
02:14:36,612 --> 02:14:40,372
Well, they haven't finished it yet. So again, they're putting everyone in an awkward
position

2255
02:14:40,372 --> 02:14:47,252
if they want to endorse it or what have you. They should finish it. I think in
general,

2256
02:14:47,252 --> 02:14:51,492
some of that stuff is a little too strong. The script versioning stuff. And so that
is

2257
02:14:51,492 --> 02:14:55,892
like a hard fork. It's like a complete black box, but whatever.

2258
02:14:56,772 --> 02:15:03,492
I want to share another tweet before we end this session. At least two of them,
actually.

2259
02:15:03,492 --> 02:15:11,892
One is by Alex Berg. Yes. And he says, so I'm not sure if this is relevant. It's
contextual

2260
02:15:11,892 --> 02:15:16,532
to their conversation, but he says something about Drivechains and says Drivechains
is

2261
02:15:16,532 --> 02:15:23,972
an opportunity for them to recycle the shitcoin funnel quote unquote built on
Bitcoin. They saw

2262
02:15:24,612 --> 02:15:30,132
it play out with NFTs and ordinals and they want more. Like, who is they?

2263
02:15:30,132 --> 02:15:38,132
I don't know, but I have never purchased an NFT or an ordinal ever. But I think
they're harmless

2264
02:15:38,132 --> 02:15:43,012
fun and I don't see a problem with it at all, between consenting adults. But I think
the,

2265
02:15:43,652 --> 02:15:51,492
but yeah, I think, well, Alex B certainly is, he is, I think he is determined to
destroy my

2266
02:15:51,572 --> 02:15:55,332
reputation and I don't think he's succeeding, but I think he's...

2267
02:15:55,332 --> 02:16:01,172
There's also Mr. Hoddle, but it's easier for you to just go out and start a
fistfight with him.

2268
02:16:01,972 --> 02:16:03,812
I think he lives in your area or something.

2269
02:16:04,852 --> 02:16:10,452
Yeah, I think so also. But I think Mr. Hoddle actually came on the, we do the
Twitter spaces

2270
02:16:10,452 --> 02:16:15,252
on Friday afternoon and he came and he spoke and he had a good time. I thought, I
mean,

2271
02:16:15,252 --> 02:16:19,812
I don't know if he had a good time, but he asked, he raised numerous objections and
then I

2272
02:16:20,532 --> 02:16:24,132
answered them. And then several, you know, many of the times he said, Oh, you're
right. I was,

2273
02:16:24,132 --> 02:16:29,732
I was wrong. So he's even kind of like a reasonable guy. I think he's just like a
little,

2274
02:16:29,732 --> 02:16:31,492
unless some of these people are just a little intense.

2275
02:16:32,132 --> 02:16:37,332
Yeah, but now he's going for the person and I think that's kind of terrible when you
think

2276
02:16:37,332 --> 02:16:42,052
about it. He's looking into your past. He's saying, Oh, you, you work with Jeff
Garzik.

2277
02:16:42,052 --> 02:16:46,852
Jeff Garzik is the guy who coded SegWit2x, right? That's evil. You have a guy who
was

2278
02:16:46,852 --> 02:16:50,852
employed to do marketing or something. And he used to work for BlockFi.

2279
02:16:50,852 --> 02:16:51,092
Right.

2280
02:16:51,092 --> 02:16:53,652
And he uses that to imply that their two labs is compromised.

2281
02:16:53,652 --> 02:16:57,732
They didn't have anything to do with, you know, the demise of BlockFi, obviously.

2282
02:16:58,452 --> 02:17:03,572
And I think that the, I can add some detail though, to this, because I think newer
people

2283
02:17:03,572 --> 02:17:11,652
may find it interesting, which is back in 2015, everyone was still friends. In fact,

2284
02:17:12,452 --> 02:17:16,132
there was a time when I, and I have all these emails and stuff from people. I have
hilarious

2285
02:17:16,132 --> 02:17:20,612
emails. I have emails from safety and saying, thank you so much. If I can ever repay
you one

2286
02:17:20,612 --> 02:17:24,452
day, I hope to, I hope to be able to repay you. Sometimes like for your, like I'm
doing,

2287
02:17:24,452 --> 02:17:28,452
I've done a bunch of favors. I have this hilarious emails that I could like leak at
any moment,

2288
02:17:28,452 --> 02:17:35,652
I suppose. But Blockstream was going to offer me this partnership in November of
2014.

2289
02:17:36,372 --> 02:17:39,492
And then I just met Roger Vier the next month in December.

2290
02:17:40,372 --> 02:17:43,812
Blockstream had these like lawyers they were trying to go through or something,

2291
02:17:43,812 --> 02:17:45,972
because they're worried about prediction markets being illegal.

2292
02:17:47,412 --> 02:17:53,732
And then Roger hired me on the spot to work on Bitcoin full time to work on my
Bitcoin ideas.

2293
02:17:54,772 --> 02:17:59,732
He hired me away from Yale, away from my Dr. Nordhaus and the climate modeling. So

2294
02:18:01,412 --> 02:18:06,292
he did that like on the spot, because he's, he doesn't care about whatever he,

2295
02:18:06,292 --> 02:18:11,492
the more illegal prediction markets were probably the more he was in. And then,

2296
02:18:11,572 --> 02:18:16,132
but the reason I bring this up is because it's scaling one in September of 2015, the
next year,

2297
02:18:16,132 --> 02:18:20,772
the two people from Blockstream came up to me and they said, oh, we're so happy that
Roger

2298
02:18:20,772 --> 02:18:24,452
hired you. We were really, we were really hoping to make it work. We think this is a
really great,

2299
02:18:24,452 --> 02:18:31,012
great fit. Everyone was actually friends back then. This whole thing about these
people

2300
02:18:31,012 --> 02:18:35,892
all hating each other is a modern thing that, you know how it is, people have a
falling out.

2301
02:18:35,892 --> 02:18:42,372
They never want to pretend or even remember back to the times when things were,

2302
02:18:44,532 --> 02:18:50,532
whatever, agreeable. I mean, there are people I used to look up to and I dislike
right now, but

2303
02:18:51,332 --> 02:18:57,892
I just, so I still have some respect for them, but at the same time, I don't show it
in person.

2304
02:18:57,892 --> 02:19:04,692
So I guess this is what you're talking about. Yes. So there was, you know, back then
really

2305
02:19:04,692 --> 02:19:09,732
everyone was, there was most of the people were mostly still friends. It wasn't
really until

2306
02:19:10,772 --> 02:19:15,172
things were still like barely being held together. Like there were still large
blockers and small

2307
02:19:15,172 --> 02:19:19,652
blockers attending Scaling 3. That was when it kind of really, but that wasn't until
October

2308
02:19:19,652 --> 02:19:26,612
2016. So that was, so people were still kind of friendly until then. And then it,
then it

2309
02:19:26,612 --> 02:19:32,452
kind of went off the rails. There were instigators too. There were people who are
climbing the,

2310
02:19:32,452 --> 02:19:38,532
climbing the ladder, people who have really no talent, but they were able to offend
or whatever

2311
02:19:38,532 --> 02:19:42,692
the right people. I'm sure, you know, you'd have some idea of who I'm thinking of.

2312
02:19:42,692 --> 02:19:44,452
Or the initials SM.

2313
02:19:46,932 --> 02:19:54,292
Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. So we have an SM, we have a SA, we have a,

2314
02:19:54,292 --> 02:20:02,852
who else? JC. We have a lot of people who are like the sociopath, chaos climbers,
like a Peter

2315
02:20:02,852 --> 02:20:09,012
Baelish. And they just want to make everyone miserable so that they can collect some
money

2316
02:20:09,012 --> 02:20:15,652
in return for not being able to code, not being able to do anything. And then, you
know,

2317
02:20:15,652 --> 02:20:24,212
sell, sell some kind of grift. So that was my experience around that time. And yeah,

2318
02:20:24,212 --> 02:20:28,452
that stuff about like looking into people's past, I think that is ridiculous. So for
example,

2319
02:20:28,452 --> 02:20:32,932
I'm the CEO of LayerTwo Labs, but of course, if people don't do what I tell them to
do,

2320
02:20:33,652 --> 02:20:38,212
then it's only a matter of time before, you know, I don't tell them what to do with
their paycheck.

2321
02:20:38,212 --> 02:20:43,652
Do you know what I mean? Like, so the CEO employee relationship is not one that's

2322
02:20:43,812 --> 02:20:49,172
like equality and consensus. You know what I mean? Like, like I tell people what to
do. And then if,

2323
02:20:49,732 --> 02:20:57,012
if there's a disagreement, then the CEO wins, right? Or the person can get fired. So
the,

2324
02:20:57,012 --> 02:21:01,092
what I mean by this is that people who aren't the CEO really should not be held that
responsible.

2325
02:21:02,452 --> 02:21:08,452
They do, they cut some kind of deal. They do what they're told, but it's the CEO's
ideas. So the

2326
02:21:08,532 --> 02:21:16,532
CEO's execution, at least. So what I'm trying to say is, you know, you know, it's
funny,

2327
02:21:16,532 --> 02:21:21,172
we could play this game and we could go back all, like, all the, like everyone
worked for

2328
02:21:21,172 --> 02:21:27,572
something funny. Michael Goldstein worked for 21, P.R. Arshad worked for BitPay. So
everyone worked

2329
02:21:27,572 --> 02:21:31,892
for like, everyone worked for like a large blocker at some point, I think it's kind
of a funny

2330
02:21:32,692 --> 02:21:37,652
result. And it's all just, you know, and like, we can count all the people who did,
many people

2331
02:21:37,652 --> 02:21:45,092
did various ICOs. Samson Mao did an ICO on Ethereum, the INX or whatever.

2332
02:21:45,092 --> 02:21:51,332
Yeah, with Jamison Lopp and a couple of other guys. And they got a free pass because
this is

2333
02:21:51,332 --> 02:21:57,892
where I was getting, because there's this higher class of people that are, you know,

2334
02:21:58,212 --> 02:22:05,092
because there's this higher class of Bitcoiners who are allowed to do whatever the
hell they want.

2335
02:22:05,652 --> 02:22:11,252
And then you have these gatekeepers like Mr. HODL, whose purpose is to put you in
line.

2336
02:22:11,252 --> 02:22:16,452
Whenever you tweet something they don't like, they just launch very angry attacks at
you to

2337
02:22:16,452 --> 02:22:21,332
put you in line and make you feel ashamed of yourself and make you feel excluded
unless you

2338
02:22:21,332 --> 02:22:27,572
behave in a way that they want. It's very interesting because I used to feel
pressured

2339
02:22:27,572 --> 02:22:31,892
by these people. When I first started my podcast, I felt like these voices were very
important

2340
02:22:32,852 --> 02:22:37,812
for the content that I was producing. And their praise meant a lot to me, even
though it did not

2341
02:22:37,812 --> 02:22:44,612
quantify in more views. So it was kind of useless. And I set myself for failure by
following this

2342
02:22:44,612 --> 02:22:49,812
path. Well, it's also the wrong thing to do. And it's unsustainable. And it's also
like,

2343
02:22:49,812 --> 02:22:57,252
when I had a background in academic economics, and I knew people who worked for the
Boston Fed,

2344
02:22:57,252 --> 02:23:02,292
for example. And yeah, sometimes people would talk about like, well, you know, isn't
all this

2345
02:23:02,292 --> 02:23:07,732
econometric stuff just a bunch of BS or whatever? And people would kind of like,
everyone makes

2346
02:23:07,732 --> 02:23:12,932
their peace with it somehow. They say, well, yes, it is. But they say, well, I'll
just go along with

2347
02:23:12,932 --> 02:23:19,572
it. Like, you know, they say, well, I am trying to get ahead. I'm trying to get
tenure. I'm trying

2348
02:23:19,572 --> 02:23:23,492
to get whatever. So people would go along with it, even though they would not, you
know, they

2349
02:23:23,492 --> 02:23:29,172
wouldn't bet their own child's life on it. Because they don't believe in it. They
don't believe in

2350
02:23:29,172 --> 02:23:34,372
whatever. You know, they don't believe in a generalized method of moments, or they
don't

2351
02:23:34,372 --> 02:23:42,612
believe in whatever it is. So yeah, the same thing has happened in Bitcoin to a far
greater degree

2352
02:23:42,612 --> 02:23:47,572
than I ever thought, than I ever perceived it happening in academic economics. So

2353
02:23:49,492 --> 02:23:55,892
but the good news is, is that because it's all open source, it actually is. I think
it is like,

2354
02:23:55,892 --> 02:24:01,092
you know, I think it's actually easier to beat is faster to eventually replace. And
I think it

2355
02:24:01,092 --> 02:24:11,412
also will be faster to have. It will be faster to have it actually fixed in the
sense of like

2356
02:24:11,412 --> 02:24:15,972
a new project just replacing BTC if it comes if it all becomes too irrational.

2357
02:24:17,892 --> 02:24:21,572
So that's, that's what I kind of really think, which is kind of a funny thought, of
course.

2358
02:24:22,132 --> 02:24:25,972
But yeah, the irony is all these people who think they're protecting Bitcoin, I
really think they

2359
02:24:25,972 --> 02:24:31,812
by far they are the number one. They are like, if you imagine how how you imagine
like, five years

2360
02:24:31,812 --> 02:24:37,092
from now, Bitcoin went to zero, it would be because of the weird cult and made it
impossible to talk

2361
02:24:37,092 --> 02:24:43,172
about things. And some someone went broke and released some other project, or
something else,

2362
02:24:43,172 --> 02:24:47,332
someone who just studied all the projects, release something and just imagine
something,

2363
02:24:48,052 --> 02:24:53,572
coin X is released, and it has this great feature. And you know, then you've got
whatever

2364
02:24:53,572 --> 02:24:59,012
sailor saying that it's there is no second best. So everyone's ignoring coin X, and
then the

2365
02:24:59,012 --> 02:25:03,732
community coin X community grows and grows and grows. And so it would be that would
be the

2366
02:25:03,732 --> 02:25:09,092
attitude that the arguments would be that's not selling money, right? But then you
realize that

2367
02:25:09,092 --> 02:25:14,292
a very small subset of the world population cares about selling money, it could even
be

2368
02:25:14,292 --> 02:25:18,292
better in a way that makes it sounder money, like it could have a smaller block
size, or it could

2369
02:25:18,292 --> 02:25:22,212
have something else a shrinking supply or some other thing, you know, it could
actually be

2370
02:25:23,012 --> 02:25:29,172
better as money better as payments and harder, sounder money. But still, people
would say,

2371
02:25:29,812 --> 02:25:33,972
the sailor, these people, they would say, you know, immaculate conception or
whatever.

2372
02:25:35,492 --> 02:25:38,212
They would say, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't matter.

2373
02:25:39,572 --> 02:25:45,172
I mean, I do agree that immaculate conception matters a lot. And the fact that we
don't have

2374
02:25:45,172 --> 02:25:49,652
any benevolent dictator helped the project become more resilient.

2375
02:25:49,652 --> 02:25:53,812
I do completely agree. But I'm just saying this is like they would come up with some
way to not

2376
02:25:53,892 --> 02:26:00,692
pay attention to it. And they would say, we don't care about the feature. You know,
whatever the

2377
02:26:00,692 --> 02:26:04,692
feature is that and they would say those people are all those people are victims of
scams. There's

2378
02:26:04,692 --> 02:26:08,772
all there's all the shit coining. That's what they would say. So that so if you
actually sit

2379
02:26:08,772 --> 02:26:13,812
down, I think and imagine like, okay, it's five years from now, it's 2028. Bitcoin
is at zero.

2380
02:26:13,812 --> 02:26:20,292
How did that happen? I think the indispensable role would be the the weird cult.

2381
02:26:20,292 --> 02:26:26,292
Well, the weird cult is gonna see that it's because they activated some sort of

2382
02:26:26,292 --> 02:26:34,692
they let the corporations or whatever, they let them ruin Bitcoin. Yeah, that's what
they think.

2383
02:26:34,692 --> 02:26:38,212
But see, in order to figure out who's right, they actually have to know something
about the BIP,

2384
02:26:38,212 --> 02:26:43,492
which is when this is when for at least for BIP300. It doesn't it doesn't look
great.

2385
02:26:43,492 --> 02:26:49,412
Yeah, let's get back to that. Because there's a lot of misconception. And there are
lots of

2386
02:26:49,412 --> 02:26:55,092
bad opinions about it that are not founded on any sort of research. And I think that
you have

2387
02:26:55,092 --> 02:27:01,812
some very nice YouTube videos on your channel. I think it's called Truthcoin, if
I'm not mistaken.

2388
02:27:01,812 --> 02:27:07,412
And you reviewed some features in Drivechains, and you showed how you can move from
Bitcoin to

2389
02:27:07,412 --> 02:27:14,452
a Zcash sidechain, and how the coins get sent from one client to the other. It's
rudimentary,

2390
02:27:14,452 --> 02:27:18,452
but it gives you a pretty good idea of what's going on there. And I think that's
useful to

2391
02:27:18,452 --> 02:27:26,052
watch just to blow your mind about what can be possible, Drivechains. And you can
also,

2392
02:27:26,052 --> 02:27:30,692
if you're technically inclined, you can run the client that's available on GitHub,
but I'm not

2393
02:27:30,692 --> 02:27:36,372
sure if it's up to date with your latest plans. It should be getting easier and
easier. I think

2394
02:27:36,372 --> 02:27:43,972
very soon, hopefully within a few days, we'll have like Mac Windows versions that
people can just

2395
02:27:43,972 --> 02:27:50,212
click, and it'll all be set up. It's set up for a reg test, play money, so that it's
just set up

2396
02:27:50,212 --> 02:27:55,412
so that it doesn't... I hope that won't be too confusing for people, but my guess is
that most

2397
02:27:55,412 --> 02:28:01,252
people don't really, they wouldn't really understand if we had like a testnet with
mining,

2398
02:28:01,252 --> 02:28:06,292
or so we have the reg test, and you could just play money, play blocks, like one
block every

2399
02:28:06,292 --> 02:28:13,492
two seconds or something. But there you can click on and see what it would be like
if BIP300 were

2400
02:28:13,492 --> 02:28:23,012
activated in Bitcoin Core. I mean, there's this conversation that people have
sometimes, and I

2401
02:28:23,012 --> 02:28:29,572
tend to agree sometimes. I can disagree the next day, but did you think about
possibly activating

2402
02:28:29,572 --> 02:28:35,412
BIP300 on Litecoin just to prove... Yeah, I think that's completely fine, but I also
think that it

2403
02:28:35,412 --> 02:28:40,772
won't... I don't know how persuasive that will actually be, but I'm totally fine on
doing that.

2404
02:28:40,772 --> 02:28:45,252
I don't really even know how I would go about doing that, but if someone from
Litecoin came

2405
02:28:45,252 --> 02:28:54,132
to me and they said, hey, we want to activate BIP300 on Litecoin, will you help us?
I

2406
02:28:54,132 --> 02:29:00,452
would say yes. So I'll do it, but I don't know if... Is that really what's

2407
02:29:00,452 --> 02:29:06,852
holding people back? I'm not sure, but I would do it. It's also slightly different

2408
02:29:06,852 --> 02:29:12,292
than the SegWit case in a couple ways. So one way is back in the days of SegWit,
when they did

2409
02:29:12,292 --> 02:29:16,692
activate it on Litecoin first, it was concerned about there being a bug in the code

2410
02:29:16,692 --> 02:29:23,732
or that anyone can spend. And Litecoin was much bigger back then in the
consciousness, but

2411
02:29:23,732 --> 02:29:28,372
now who cares really about... Who even knows about Litecoin? Whatever. Not very many
people, I think.

2412
02:29:29,652 --> 02:29:35,812
Another difference is that the whole point of BIP300 is kind of like to emulate
altcoins, and it

2413
02:29:35,812 --> 02:29:44,932
has this economic longevity-based, like net present value model, which won't really
apply

2414
02:29:44,932 --> 02:29:51,492
on Litecoin. So it won't really apply, but you can at least see what all the code
does, and maybe you

2415
02:29:51,492 --> 02:29:51,972
can watch...

2416
02:29:52,902 --> 02:30:19,902
...minor thefts happen, or something, or would them not happen. And then, or maybe
it would be like an explosion in utility of Litecoin. Litecoin will gain a Zcash
sidechain. Litecoin will be on darknet markets. Litecoin will gain an Ethereum EVM.
People will start pirating ETH stuff. I mean, that also could be kind of funny. I
don't know. So I'm absolutely not... I'm doing absolutely nothing. I don't know
what's going on.

2417
02:30:19,902 --> 02:30:26,902
I'm trying to stop that from happening, and I will help if someone wants to do it,
but I'm not really like... I don't wake up in the morning and say, okay, I'm really
excited.

2418
02:30:26,902 --> 02:30:33,902
Now the next part of my plan is to activate BIP300 on Litecoin. That's not really
why.

2419
02:30:33,902 --> 02:30:47,902
Yeah, but it's the testnet, but incentives, right? It's the one that brought up
about $1 million when SegWit got activated in a SegWit address, and that bounty is
still there if someone wants to break it.

2420
02:30:47,902 --> 02:30:54,902
They made a very good point. And the first transaction on Lightning was sent on
Litecoin, which is interesting.

2421
02:30:54,902 --> 02:30:59,902
Because they were afraid to break stuff, so they just built on Litecoin and saw how
it works.

2422
02:30:59,902 --> 02:31:05,902
There are some incentives to break, so there's a small amount of money to collect if
you're able to figure that out.

2423
02:31:05,902 --> 02:31:12,902
And there are also some users that use that network, so you get some feedback from
newbies who don't know how that works.

2424
02:31:12,902 --> 02:31:17,902
I think there are some benefits to this, specifically because it has some
incentives.

2425
02:31:17,902 --> 02:31:27,902
On the long term, I think Litecoin has kind of secured its security budget because
of Elon Musk, because it's merge mine with Dogecoin or the other way around.

2426
02:31:27,902 --> 02:31:33,902
So they make more money, I guess. The miners make more money from Dogecoin than from
Litecoin.

2427
02:31:33,902 --> 02:31:41,902
Yeah, that's a useful example for people who ask about what if one sidechain becomes
dominant. It's a very similar scenario.

2428
02:31:42,902 --> 02:31:44,902
Kind of crazy if you think about it.

2429
02:31:44,902 --> 02:32:00,902
It is, yeah. Who would have thought when they merged mine with Litecoin that they
would be the wealthiest man in the world would endorse their meme coin.

2430
02:32:01,902 --> 02:32:09,902
Yeah, so I have been holding you hostage for about two hours and a half. It's longer
than this.

2431
02:32:09,902 --> 02:32:18,902
Anyway, if you have listened up to this point, you're a hero and you deserve all the
praise for sticking around and trying to learn how this works.

2432
02:32:18,902 --> 02:32:23,902
I have two more arguments to make before I let you go.

2433
02:32:23,902 --> 02:32:30,902
The first one is that when people are critical of Drivechains in principle, ask them
this question.

2434
02:32:30,902 --> 02:32:45,902
If you are paid by the Ethereum Foundation or the banker elite or whatever to
prevent Bitcoin from adding features that take away from the use cases of central
banks or else of Ethereum,

2435
02:32:45,902 --> 02:32:50,902
do you think that your arguments would be any different to FUD Drivechains?

2436
02:32:51,902 --> 02:32:53,902
Well, I mean, I always wonder about that kind of thing.

2437
02:32:53,902 --> 02:33:00,902
Like I always think there must be some like as you hate to go, you hate to do that
to unfairly accuse someone.

2438
02:33:00,902 --> 02:33:08,902
But at the same time, if you take out of a thousand people or whatever out of a
hundred Drivechain critics or something,

2439
02:33:08,902 --> 02:33:17,902
there must be a few that either they have some kind of they have equity in some
company or they are like social media manipulators.

2440
02:33:18,902 --> 02:33:21,902
You know, because we know that many of these such people are hired.

2441
02:33:24,902 --> 02:33:32,902
You know, even just people who like make memes or something, there's to some extent
they have some agenda, some kind of a warfare.

2442
02:33:32,902 --> 02:33:37,902
So I hate to like, you know, accuse anyone of that, but I do think there must be
some of those people mixed in.

2443
02:33:37,902 --> 02:33:44,902
And it could just be anyone who has any rival idea that would suffer in the market
for attention or anything like that.

2444
02:33:45,902 --> 02:33:47,902
So that's too bad.

2445
02:33:50,902 --> 02:33:51,902
Okay.

2446
02:33:51,902 --> 02:33:58,902
Harlow and I just made fun of you for posting a job listing for a meme officer for
LayerTwo Labs.

2447
02:33:58,902 --> 02:34:10,902
It's like who will be the meme lord slash specialist with a no idea is too spicy
approach to make BIP300 memes that push buttons and cloud emoji.

2448
02:34:11,902 --> 02:34:13,902
Anyway, I'm not going to insist on this.

2449
02:34:14,902 --> 02:34:17,902
It's definitely interesting how we end up in these culture wars.

2450
02:34:18,902 --> 02:34:25,902
But we don't spend too much time talking about the technical details, but instead
take it ideologically and personally.

2451
02:34:26,902 --> 02:34:34,902
It's more about how people feel about others as opposed to the quality of the code,
which I don't want Bitcoin to turn into this.

2452
02:34:35,902 --> 02:34:37,902
But I guess it's a consequence of mass adoption.

2453
02:34:38,902 --> 02:34:40,902
And we don't have a choice, really.

2454
02:34:40,902 --> 02:34:43,902
Maybe Twitter is the worst place to debate stuff.

2455
02:34:44,902 --> 02:34:46,902
But I want to show you this.

2456
02:34:46,902 --> 02:34:50,902
So your original inscription 56,535.

2457
02:34:50,902 --> 02:34:54,902
I put the entire Bitcoin heads collection in it.

2458
02:34:54,902 --> 02:35:02,902
So you are forever, at least until the witness side gets pruned, immortalized on the
Bitcoin blockchain.

2459
02:35:02,902 --> 02:35:05,902
I made you your Bitcoin experts expert.

2460
02:35:05,902 --> 02:35:07,902
And you said that it's a quote from Nick Carter.

2461
02:35:08,902 --> 02:35:12,902
And when I made this card, you also asked me to put something.

2462
02:35:12,902 --> 02:35:15,902
So it's also on Counterparty.

2463
02:35:15,902 --> 02:35:19,902
And people are going to call me a shit coiner for creating stuff on Bitcoin.

2464
02:35:19,902 --> 02:35:20,902
But it was fun.

2465
02:35:20,902 --> 02:35:25,902
So you can also get one of these cards for I don't know how much this is.

2466
02:35:25,902 --> 02:35:27,902
Anyway, it's like 80 bucks.

2467
02:35:27,902 --> 02:35:28,902
Nice.

2468
02:35:28,902 --> 02:35:35,902
Anyway, my point is that when I made this, I asked you what I should write for
special attack and stuff like that.

2469
02:35:35,902 --> 02:35:36,902
Or weakness.

2470
02:35:36,902 --> 02:35:37,902
No, weakness.

2471
02:35:37,902 --> 02:35:40,902
And you said Ocarina of Time randomizers.

2472
02:35:41,902 --> 02:35:42,902
And that's where it hit me.

2473
02:35:42,902 --> 02:35:44,902
Okay, you are a 90s kid.

2474
02:35:44,902 --> 02:35:48,902
I think you're like four years older than I am or something.

2475
02:35:48,902 --> 02:35:50,902
You grew up with the Nintendo 64.

2476
02:35:50,902 --> 02:35:52,902
Yes, I did.

2477
02:35:52,902 --> 02:35:53,902
Maybe you also had a PlayStation.

2478
02:35:53,902 --> 02:35:56,902
I don't know if you're a Nintendo fanboy all the way through.

2479
02:35:56,902 --> 02:36:00,902
Or you're more of a multi-console owner.

2480
02:36:00,902 --> 02:36:03,902
And this is like a pun for multi-coiner or whatever.

2481
02:36:03,902 --> 02:36:09,902
But I was wondering if you had the chance to try Curse of the Kingdom, which is the
latest Legend of Zelda.

2482
02:36:09,902 --> 02:36:10,902
No, but I've heard it's really, really good.

2483
02:36:10,902 --> 02:36:11,902
Oh, man.

2484
02:36:11,902 --> 02:36:13,902
I'm 80% done with it.

2485
02:36:13,902 --> 02:36:15,902
With the main story.

2486
02:36:15,902 --> 02:36:17,902
It's so, so good.

2487
02:36:17,902 --> 02:36:22,902
I mean, the dungeons are not as hard as the Water Temple in Ocarina of Time.

2488
02:36:22,902 --> 02:36:25,902
So don't expect that kind of challenge.

2489
02:36:25,902 --> 02:36:29,902
It's overwhelming when you first walk in there and you're like, what?

2490
02:36:29,902 --> 02:36:31,902
There's so many places you could go.

2491
02:36:31,902 --> 02:36:33,902
That's a little rough.

2492
02:36:33,902 --> 02:36:37,902
That was a clever design for a dungeon for that point in the game.

2493
02:36:37,902 --> 02:36:41,902
Because by then you were committed.

2494
02:36:41,902 --> 02:36:43,902
But that was intimidating.

2495
02:36:43,902 --> 02:36:44,902
You're like, oh, my gosh.

2496
02:36:44,902 --> 02:36:46,902
Where am I supposed to go?

2497
02:36:46,902 --> 02:36:50,902
And you can beat that on a randomizer, which is impressive.

2498
02:36:50,902 --> 02:36:51,902
Yes, of course.

2499
02:36:51,902 --> 02:36:52,902
Yes.

2500
02:36:52,902 --> 02:36:55,902
The randomizer you often only need to visit one room.

2501
02:36:55,902 --> 02:36:57,902
Sometimes.

2502
02:36:57,902 --> 02:37:00,902
So you played it that many times.

2503
02:37:00,902 --> 02:37:04,902
I've played it many times, yes.

2504
02:37:04,902 --> 02:37:06,902
And I've watched a lot.

2505
02:37:06,902 --> 02:37:10,902
I watch online the whole, they do tournaments, they do races.

2506
02:37:10,902 --> 02:37:12,902
Yeah, it's fantastic.

2507
02:37:12,902 --> 02:37:15,902
Okay.

2508
02:37:15,902 --> 02:37:18,902
I wanted to know if you are into the latest Zelda games.

2509
02:37:18,902 --> 02:37:20,902
I guess you're a CEO now.

2510
02:37:20,902 --> 02:37:22,902
You don't have time for that.

2511
02:37:22,902 --> 02:37:24,902
Not right now.

2512
02:37:24,902 --> 02:37:26,902
It's in downtime at some point.

2513
02:37:26,902 --> 02:37:29,902
I'll take a vacation and I'll binge the game.

2514
02:37:29,902 --> 02:37:32,902
But did you try the one that came before it, Breath of the Wild?

2515
02:37:32,902 --> 02:37:33,902
Yes, of course.

2516
02:37:33,902 --> 02:37:35,902
Yes, very good.

2517
02:37:35,902 --> 02:37:37,902
This is like Breath of the Wild on steroids.

2518
02:37:37,902 --> 02:37:40,902
Yeah, they said there's three Breath of the Wilds stacked on top of each other.

2519
02:37:40,902 --> 02:37:41,902
I've heard stuff like that.

2520
02:37:41,902 --> 02:37:42,902
I don't really know.

2521
02:37:42,902 --> 02:37:47,902
Yeah, you have a sky section and the depths where it's underground.

2522
02:37:47,902 --> 02:37:50,902
And you have different types of enemies and different types of quests.

2523
02:37:50,902 --> 02:37:52,902
It's mind-blowing.

2524
02:37:52,902 --> 02:37:53,902
So much to do.

2525
02:37:53,902 --> 02:37:55,902
So distracting.

2526
02:37:55,902 --> 02:38:04,902
And some friends ask you to, for example, take a dive from the skies and land on a
snowy mountain.

2527
02:38:04,902 --> 02:38:09,902
And climb down the mountain snowboarding on your shield.

2528
02:38:09,902 --> 02:38:12,902
And that's one of the coolest missions I encountered.

2529
02:38:12,902 --> 02:38:13,902
So dynamic.

2530
02:38:13,902 --> 02:38:14,902
So much to do.

2531
02:38:14,902 --> 02:38:20,902
So many genres integrated into this one small portion of the game.

2532
02:38:20,902 --> 02:38:21,902
Like SSX.

2533
02:38:21,902 --> 02:38:23,902
I'm not sure if you were into that.

2534
02:38:23,902 --> 02:38:24,902
Yes.

2535
02:38:24,902 --> 02:38:25,902
PlayStation 1.

2536
02:38:25,902 --> 02:38:27,902
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2537
02:38:27,902 --> 02:38:28,902
So good.

2538
02:38:28,902 --> 02:38:30,902
They put so much thought into this.

2539
02:38:30,902 --> 02:38:33,902
And there's also a shrine where basically you play Jenga.

2540
02:38:33,902 --> 02:38:36,902
I was like, fuck me.

2541
02:38:36,902 --> 02:38:37,902
Oh, my God.

2542
02:38:37,902 --> 02:38:38,902
So much stuff.

2543
02:38:38,902 --> 02:38:41,902
And only $60.

2544
02:38:41,902 --> 02:38:42,902
I got to finish it.

2545
02:38:42,902 --> 02:38:45,902
Maybe next month.

2546
02:38:45,902 --> 02:38:48,902
Just for the sake of the story, I got to end it.

2547
02:38:48,902 --> 02:38:50,902
And also, Paul, I appreciate your patience.

2548
02:38:50,902 --> 02:38:52,902
You are incredible.

2549
02:38:52,902 --> 02:38:59,902
I guess in the upcoming interviews, you're going to be debating Peter Todd on
Stephen Lee Burr's show.

2550
02:38:59,902 --> 02:39:04,902
And you're going to go on Peter McCormack's show doing I don't recall exactly what.

2551
02:39:04,902 --> 02:39:07,902
But you're invited.

2552
02:39:07,902 --> 02:39:08,902
Yes.

2553
02:39:08,902 --> 02:39:10,902
Well, we'll see if they can find it.

2554
02:39:10,902 --> 02:39:11,902
They asked the same problem you did.

2555
02:39:11,902 --> 02:39:14,902
They wanted to do some kind of debate or conversation.

2556
02:39:14,902 --> 02:39:18,902
But they can't find anyone actually who wants to do it.

2557
02:39:18,902 --> 02:39:20,902
Because no one has actually looked into it.

2558
02:39:20,902 --> 02:39:23,902
Everyone just thinks other people have looked into it.

2559
02:39:23,902 --> 02:39:32,902
Which is crazy in this field where we say don't trust verify and we put that on
T-shirts and hats and stickers and everything.

2560
02:39:32,902 --> 02:39:35,902
But we don't actually spend too much time verifying.

2561
02:39:35,902 --> 02:39:37,902
And it's kind of sad.

2562
02:39:37,902 --> 02:39:41,902
But also there is in the chat Chris from Mallorca Blockchain Days.

2563
02:39:41,902 --> 02:39:44,902
He's rebranding the conference to Bitcoin and Liberty.

2564
02:39:44,902 --> 02:39:47,902
And he wants you to come to Mallorca next year.

2565
02:39:47,902 --> 02:39:49,902
I'll try to make it.

2566
02:39:49,902 --> 02:39:51,902
I think it's in July.

2567
02:39:51,902 --> 02:39:52,902
Right.

2568
02:39:52,902 --> 02:39:54,902
I'll try to make it.

2569
02:39:54,902 --> 02:39:55,902
Okay.

2570
02:39:55,902 --> 02:39:56,902
Should we end it there, I think?

2571
02:39:56,902 --> 02:39:57,902
Yes, sir.

2572
02:39:57,902 --> 02:40:00,902
Also, don't forget to pick up your magazine at Tabcom.

2573
02:40:00,902 --> 02:40:01,902
I won't.

2574
02:40:01,902 --> 02:40:06,902
And those listening, there's going to be magazines at Baltic Honey Badger on
Saturday.

2575
02:40:06,902 --> 02:40:08,902
And I'm done here.

2576
02:40:08,902 --> 02:40:10,902
I spoke too much.

2577
02:40:10,902 --> 02:40:11,902
I saw.

2578
02:40:11,902 --> 02:40:16,902
So basically it was very bright in your room when we first started.

2579
02:40:16,902 --> 02:40:17,902
Now it got dark.

2580
02:40:17,902 --> 02:40:18,902
Now it's dark.

2581
02:40:18,902 --> 02:40:20,902
Very nice metaphor.

2582
02:40:20,902 --> 02:40:24,902
It's the nature's way of saying, okay, you should stop.

2583
02:40:24,902 --> 02:40:27,902
Cool.

2584
02:40:27,902 --> 02:40:28,902
Okay.

2585
02:40:28,902 --> 02:40:29,902
Great.

2586
02:40:29,902 --> 02:40:30,902
Thank you guys for listening.

2587
02:40:30,902 --> 02:40:33,902
I hope you learned something from this episode.

2588
02:40:33,902 --> 02:40:35,902
Me too.

2589
02:40:35,902 --> 02:40:38,568
Thanks.