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Okay, I hope you all enjoyed that music from Mario 64, but I only have a shorter amount

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of time today, but I made a list of cool stuff to talk about, well, sort of.

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So I'm just going to hit this list and then if anyone wants to talk, they can come up.

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So come up if you want.

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First, we announced this bug bounty.

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It's going to be $100,000 total over the whole summer, and I will massively increase it if

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there's lots and lots of bugs being found, because the purpose is to basically try to

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find them all, at least in the base package of software.

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So yeah, I think some people have asked like, oh, do I just submit the bug as soon as I

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find it?

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I think that's probably a good idea.

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And ideally for you is you find a bug that no one else has found.

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And again, if I find many bugs, we will massively increase the reward.

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So we'll see how we do with just what we're paying out now.

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And for details of that, go to, well, I'll just scroll back in my tweets until I link

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to it.

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Then we have this thing, SimplePool.

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Now this is only just started, okay?

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This is brand new.

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This is wet concrete, okay?

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But this is an open source pool, because the question is, why isn't the pool software open

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source?

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I mean, we don't want, we want it to be this open source library that anyone use, not some

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creepy private thing.

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I think that's a no-brainer.

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Now someone, of course, there's always one or two snarky people replying.

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And they said, oh yeah, we'll give you a free Bitaxe and you can increase the hash rate of

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the pool.

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The pool software is not supposed to be an actual replacement for Foundry and whatever.

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I explained that in the post, but people didn't understand it.

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So the pools, the Foundry and whatever, they're a brand.

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And they extract a small little fee from being reputable.

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And that's how they make their money.

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And this doesn't change that at all.

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I'm just trying to make it so that the actual software that they use to select transactions

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to put in blocks is something that we all know about.

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And I think actually we can solve a bunch of unrelated problems too, but we can, I think

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we saw like Relay and some other things, because Relay right now is done in a kind of communist

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way, where it's kind of just Relay for free out of the goodness of your heart.

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And that's actually not that great.

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And that has led to all kinds of confusion, such as that led to the difference between

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the standardness rules and the validity rules, which has been a huge distraction, a waste

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of everyone's time.

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This is kind of like the opposite of what Luke is trying to do with BIP-110 in the sense

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that we'll just aggressively revenue maximize.

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And so we will not be judgmentally stopping people from making money, which is sort of

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what they're doing.

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And we can talk about BIP-110 if you want, but okay.

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And one thing I wanted to mention is should we change the format and maybe next week we'll

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do Clubhouse?

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I don't know.

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But if you have a thought, then come up on stage and let me know.

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Some people wanted to ask about the Solana thing.

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I've shared already the plan, like about how people can have fun with the Solana token,

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redeem it for real eCash.

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And I shared it with like five, maybe four or five people, maybe five.

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And if they haven't told you, then they have permission to repost my, I made like a tiny

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spreadsheet.

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It's very small and they can just post it if they want.

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So it's a pretty simple plan and I think it kind of works for everyone, neutralizes the

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chaos of this and harnesses it for a fun way because, well, you'll see when you read it.

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Okay.

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I wanted to make a note about the eCash brand, which is that we intend to put out

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valuable true information, useful information, all of which 100% true.

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We intend to put that on eCash.com, but to some extent, well, we need a lot of stupid

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people to bet against.

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So we don't necessarily want it to be too obvious how good of an idea that we're doing.

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So we will be trying and we will be trying to defend the brand and explain the brand.

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I think people are still talking a little bit too much about the whole take Satoshi's

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coins, but I think we want it to be misunderstood slightly to some tiny extent.

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Okay.

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And Lightning, yeah, today, we, you know, again, Lightning has come up.

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I consider Lightning to be a totally settled issue.

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Every time I talk to someone in the real world, they seem to agree with me.

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Maybe, you know, maybe I'm more intimidating than I expect in the real world.

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People are afraid to disagree with me to my face.

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But then on Twitter, you have, you know, what looked like the dumbest people in the world.

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And then they say like, silly things like, oh, does it even matter if Lightning scales

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or does it matter if it's custodial?

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The answer is yes, because it's not Lightning.

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And then other people are confused about like if one leg of the trade, like if you make

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a Lightning transaction and something else does the heavy lifting, some custodial service

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does the heavy lifting for that.

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Does that still count as a Lightning transaction?

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And the answer is no, because it was all done.

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Because it was, without the custodial thing, it would not have been possible.

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So it would have failed if it, so that thing is the linchpin that holds it all together.

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But a lot of people don't even really, I don't know what to deal, how to deal with these

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people because a lot of the Lightning experts, you know, they agree with me and they've already

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moved on to the next thing.

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So I don't know.

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I did want to tell one story about, okay, this is a story that, you know, if you're

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into Lightning and because we have to talk about the people who say, oh, I used Lightning

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yesterday and I saw it work.

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And I have a little story that I sometimes tell about, this is about Theranos, the fake

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blood company that ended up being a huge scam and a disaster and something that everyone

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regretted associating with.

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Theranos, look it up.

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This young man, Tyler Shultz, he was working there.

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He's the grandson of George Shultz, who's a famous politician, among other things, on

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the board of Theranos.

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And the grandfather helped him get the internship.

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He knew that when people came in to get their blood tested with Theranos, they would come

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in, they would prick their finger to get the blood drawn and they would put it in the Theranos

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machine and then they would take them on a tour.

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They would take these people, you know, the patients in theory, they would take them on

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a tour of the lab and then while they were on the tour of the lab, out of the room, people

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would come in, open up the Theranos device, take out the blood capsule, whisk it away

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into a different room, dilute the blood and then run it on the traditional Siemens technology

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that had nothing to do with Theranos at all.

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And then they would print out the results and they would make it appear as though this

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was from, this is exactly how lightning basically is.

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But this would be very frustrating for Tyler when he would try to blow the whistle on this

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whole operation being fake, is people, such as his grandfather, would say, no, I've seen

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the machine work, they tested my blood with it, I saw it with my own two eyes.

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What they saw was a hoax, everything they saw was fake.

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Now lightning is a little bit more real than this, but not very much so, not significantly

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so, because ultimately at the end of the day, it relies on a lot of heavy lifting done by

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stuff that has nothing to do with lightning and if this stuff went away, the lightning

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user experience would be unbearably bad and it certainly won't work at scale, which was

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the whole point in the first place.

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So I just had to react to this whole, because it's a very, very common thing.

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People think, oh, I used it myself and it's the perfect overlay.

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I also made the metaphor, I was talking to Mr. Hoddle, I use the metaphor of a magician.

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If anyone wants to just interrupt by coming up and asking about anything, but yeah, I

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got like one or two notes and a metaphor of a magician, it's like, oh, I saw the magician

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saw the lady in half and I saw it with my own two eyes and it's like, well, that's not,

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it doesn't mean anything, you know, it's like you, part of the fun of seeing a magician

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is that, you know, the magic is fake, but you're still kind of thinking like, how did

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they do that?

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And that's the opposite of how it is with lightning, where they lie to you and they

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just say they misrepresent something as actually being due to HTLC technology.

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And that's not true at all, but now we all have to listen to it.

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So that's on my list or whatever.

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So one other thing, in addition to, should we change up the format?

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Second concept is who, who do we think are like top hater is, who is a top hater that

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we could actually get to come in?

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You know, someone who's actually worth talking to.

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We have one or two haters who are just like, you know, anonymous bot accounts have 13 followers

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and they're just like fake people, obviously.

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But who, who could we actually get, you know, maybe Pleditor or something.

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I don't know if he speaks on camera or on whatever.

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But the point is, who could we actually get and should we then collectively like request

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them to come next week or something like that?

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Or should we, I was thinking also we could train like an AI bot.

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Someone could train and operate an AI bot and they could say, answer how Pleditor would

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answer.

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We can have Vlad or whoever, just pretend to be the person.

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This is a funny idea I had.

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Again, if you want to come up, just request.

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Otherwise I'll keep going down my list of stuff.

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We have a lot of stuff to announce.

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I'm not going to announce it all here.

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I'm just saying in general, lots of stuff has been happening.

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Lots of people have joined, lots of people are very interested in what we're doing.

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The round, we're going to close the round.

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It has basically sold out and so it'll have to be closed and then the price will have

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to be increased for the final round.

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So there's been like an overwhelming number of messages and people asking me to, you would

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think it would like die down a lot, which it has, because there are actually so many

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people had messaged me last month that I missed a bunch of messages and I kind of told them,

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well, we'll just wait until I'm back in the news and then I'll message you back.

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But really a lot of stuff is happening and we have a lot of just content to push out

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and we have a lot of actual substance to push out.

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So I have another note here about the Bitcoin SV people, because for some reason we've got

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a lot of Bitcoin SV people who are very welcome, of course, and we have many fans, actually,

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we have a lot of people who are supporters and even investors who are from BSV world,

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but we also have some haters.

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And I just wanted to point out that the BSV people, like the Drivechain is actually what

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the BSVers think that BSV is.

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And so I think when the BSVers finally figure that out, they will actually become big fans,

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but I don't know how long that will take.

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I hope it doesn't take that long, because the BSV philosophy is kind of like you can

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use unlimited data on the chain and downloading is optional and then miners pick up the tab.

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And no matter how expensive it is, and then we can all free ride on the miners using SPV.

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Now that's very similar to Drivechain, Drivechain says you can use more data whenever

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you want and you can download it optionally in the form of choosing which full nodes,

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if any, you download.

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And then the node runners, the L2 node runners, they pick up the tab.

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But not if it's too expensive.

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And we can all free ride on the nodes using SPV.

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So it's very, very similar.

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But the problem is just, you know, what if something's too expensive?

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And in the BSV world, if the nodes become too expensive, the whole network just dies

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off.

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Or they do mental gymnastics to try and say like that, there's nothing bad about that

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or it is bad, but it's not too bad or whatever.

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And then the Drivechain world is perfectly, perfectly fine.

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It's totally immune, 100% immune to having L2s that have infinite cost because those

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die off, but the rest of them survive.

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So the whole Bitcoin SV mistake is this idea that there's nothing bad about increasing

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the block size at all, which is false.

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And the Drivechain idea just says, well, if you increase the block size, some good

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things will happen, some bad things will happen, and you can each make a trade off and they

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can all just compete.

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So I think that's what the Bitcoin SV people actually want.

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If they knew what they wanted, that's what they would want.

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So yeah, that's just like some of my list of things.

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I actually have more on my list, but I think we should talk about...

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whatever people want to talk about and it's 515 I don't have that much time

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today it is a shame that well yeah usually these these really get going

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very well and we start off in like the first few minutes are are slow and then

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it and then it really picks up and then by the end we can't we can't escape on

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time so but yeah I just thought I would give a monologue boring monologue here

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we have someone we have a mr. Marcus mm-something one and then when you

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prove people it takes like 20 seconds for them to pop up but I have a yes

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hello can you hear me well I can hear you yes okay so first of all drive

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chains are really nice you know all that stuff and yes you have been right and

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almost everything which is really sad to say as a Bitcoin maximalist myself and so

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I have a few points to say here so first of all you you talk a lot of bad stuff

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about lighting which I kind of agree I just don't think you're like lighting

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can be useful for some stuff you know I think it can be used for like

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pre-confirmations you know and instant confirmation stuff and I'm also cross

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chain settlement so I think your rhetoric of like Oh lightning is

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completely useless is not a good rhetoric you know that's one thing do

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you agree with that well okay first of all thank you for saying the drive

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chains are great and that I'm often right about everything so and then also

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you thanks for saying that you mostly agree you often agree with what I'm

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saying but lightning okay I agree that sometimes like okay what I'm trying to

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achieve with lightning is to me whether or not something has become a cult is

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much more important it's like it practically trumps epistemology you know

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what I mean because once the cult takes over then everything is a lie and that's

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kind of where we are with lightning unfortunately so at this point it's like

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even even when I had so years ago like I'm talking like 2020 or 2021 I had like

225
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a tamer critique of lightning and people said the same thing they said you can't

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criticize lightning at all no one will want no one wants to hear that no one

227
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wants no one will pay attention to you you won't get like invited back or

228
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whatever so people have been saying that for a while maybe unreasonably lightning

229
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does do instant confirmation but that's I'm not actually sure that it's lightning

230
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that does that so to me even I draw a box around payment channels because

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lightning because there's a big difference between to me there's a big

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difference and to most people there's no difference at all because they just think

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custodial lightning or whatever but there's the bi-directional payment

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channels where each person has like funded the channel and then they adjust

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and then they settle up and this is only two people there's actually kind of

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a big difference between that that already existed before the lightning

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network was a thing and then the lightning network was like we can have

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HTLC's and we can use the six degrees of separation Kevin Bacon concept or

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whatever erdos number or whatever it is to make the all the payment channels

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work together in this network and it's the idea of the network that I just

241
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think is not true because yeah it tends to centralize which is fine to be honest

242
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like we have to have companies do stuff you know that's fine we have to build

243
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trust in some places it's fine and we need isn't that really not that fine I

244
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mean I agree with you I'm fully in favor of companies and brands and all this

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stuff I just think that lightning is represented as the cypherpunk technology

246
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where it's like code is law and yeah but today's not understand most people

247
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are like a story of lightning that that's a lie yeah I understand and so

248
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what I mean like if I so people do primal to primals app on Nostr they

249
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both use primal custodial lightning there's no lightning transaction there's

250
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no and this is a little lightning icon now what about if I send lightning to

251
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you and without a custodial person along the way we would not have had enough

252
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liquidity but you and me are running we have some we have one channel somewhere

253
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is used that's a real lightning channel but the but the route would not have

254
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completed do you consider that without without going through a custodial

255
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lightning hop does that count as lightning to you

256
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well I don't think I really care because the the main point I think is is useful

257
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is instant confirmations right this is a really good payment experience so as

258
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long as we can get some type of that and I know you don't need lighting itself

259
00:20:32,747 --> 00:20:37,108
you can do that otherwise like people do those like pre confirmations with

260
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stakers and other chains like as long as we can get some form of that I'm fine

261
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but but also the thing is that even lighting can be better done on a drive

262
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chain you know because there's a bunch of like opcodes that people want and

263
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whatever and also just you know having more space so that you can because

264
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there's a in the paper there's the thing where you have to have like a hundred

265
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times more block space so everyone could import you know so like even drive

266
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chain could help lightning you know so that's the thing which is one of the

267
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reasons why I don't understand why lightning people don't go rooting for a

268
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Drivechain I can't understand that because it is a cult and it has nothing

269
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to do with the technology or truth it unfortunately the termites have spread

270
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and they've eaten all the wood and now I think it's like unfixable that's the

271
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problem so that's part of it is as like a test to see who in lightning world

272
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still has a brain the answer is depressingly few people and so you're

273
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right that lightning would work better on Drivechain for a lot of reasons more

274
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block space and then you know there's even I think any prep out is mentioned

275
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also in the lightning whitepaper without the current is the way that lightning

276
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networks originally designed in the way is mostly used when it's used at all

277
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which is not even that often because custodial lightning is really what's

278
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used but the design is that you have to track you have to keep this giant list

279
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this growing list of of potentially like you have to check for someone trying to

280
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screw you over and then pull a trigger on this if you see them so you have to

281
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have this list or just eats up more and more RAM until you refresh the channel

282
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and so that get that all that could be fixed and but you know it's kind of all

283
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moot point because Barack a creator of our he was like you know he's like very

284
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very smart he's very very skilled and he's very good with Bitcoin Bitcoin

285
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script and he's very good with lightning and when he invented arc he was like

286
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well you know I was trying to make lightning work and it doesn't work so

287
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but even this doesn't matter like I've compiled tons and tons of quotes that

288
00:22:55,428 --> 00:23:01,268
people have said on stage these are from like elite lightning devs and like none

289
00:23:01,268 --> 00:23:04,868
of them are out of context or anything where they say it doesn't basically it's

290
00:23:04,868 --> 00:23:09,027
not going to work out so but but the problem is that everyone the problem is

291
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not this has nothing to do with technology is become a it has become a

292
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you know it's you can't separate lightning from the propaganda and no one

293
00:23:18,948 --> 00:23:24,307
wants to hear any bad news about BTC even if that is necessary for the good

294
00:23:24,307 --> 00:23:29,588
news to come out like even if it's actually good news in disguise the whole

295
00:23:29,588 --> 00:23:36,948
lightning thing has become basically a a giant dunce cap that is discrediting

296
00:23:36,948 --> 00:23:40,948
BTC and so that's that's the thing is you can only have any credibility or any

297
00:23:40,948 --> 00:23:44,828
kind of virtue or integrity if you just refuse to put up with it at this point I

298
00:23:44,828 --> 00:23:51,908
think okay so look what parts of lightning do you think can be salvaged

299
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now because I think state channels can be a good idea now well it's not that I

300
00:24:02,348 --> 00:24:07,788
think that again it's not that I think that lightning like I can imagine in 10

301
00:24:07,788 --> 00:24:14,388
years people using HTLC's and as you mentioned it's kind of nice when you

302
00:24:14,388 --> 00:24:21,067
know you can go cross-chain and you can like so that's kind of cool yeah the

303
00:24:21,067 --> 00:24:26,987
experience I want is like you can have a wallet which is let's say a blue

304
00:24:26,987 --> 00:24:31,468
wallet green wallet kind of thing and you can pay an invoice and I don't care

305
00:24:31,468 --> 00:24:35,667
where what Drivechain you're at you can be in Thunder you can be in I don't know

306
00:24:35,667 --> 00:24:41,547
zSide you can be anywhere and I can pay an invoice from anywhere to

307
00:24:41,547 --> 00:24:45,948
anywhere you know that's the kind of the kind of future I want and I think

308
00:24:45,948 --> 00:24:52,468
something like lightning can enable it maybe not well probably not the light

309
00:24:52,468 --> 00:24:56,228
you have today but something that involves a writing network a routing

310
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network and state channels you know

311
00:25:01,507 --> 00:25:08,908
okay I think you know honestly though this is my real thought is well okay my

312
00:25:08,908 --> 00:25:12,348
real thought is like well when she once you get because you said that you like

313
00:25:12,348 --> 00:25:19,187
instant confirmations and you like cross-chain and my thought is once we

314
00:25:19,187 --> 00:25:25,708
get instant confirmation it's a transaction settlement won't you just

315
00:25:25,708 --> 00:25:29,187
drop lightning at that point because why why deal with all this other stuff that's

316
00:25:29,187 --> 00:25:34,268
not real about the channels and the liquidity and being online to to receive

317
00:25:34,268 --> 00:25:42,708
and signing what kind of pre confirmations are you thinking about

318
00:25:42,708 --> 00:25:46,708
well I have a bunch of ideas I was actually going to so the thing is now

319
00:25:46,708 --> 00:25:52,908
I've been I'm losing a lot you know I don't have as much free time as I used

320
00:25:52,908 --> 00:25:56,388
to have so now it's a shame because I would like normally I would be like like

321
00:25:56,388 --> 00:25:59,948
to investigate but now I have like lots of people talking to me and asking me

322
00:25:59,948 --> 00:26:04,788
for things but I was thinking about putting I have compiled a document of

323
00:26:04,788 --> 00:26:14,067
instant settlement like instant finality ideas and I was working on a few days

324
00:26:14,067 --> 00:26:17,667
ago and it's somewhere on this computer actually but I was thinking about

325
00:26:17,667 --> 00:26:22,268
publishing it all and then putting some kind of contest to see if people have

326
00:26:22,268 --> 00:26:29,307
any new ideas and normally I would like just try to like look into it myself but

327
00:26:29,307 --> 00:26:33,268
I'm actually just very low on time at the moment but I think this is this

328
00:26:33,268 --> 00:26:37,067
would help okay so like people have proposed several different types of ideas

329
00:26:37,067 --> 00:26:43,427
you as you probably know so one is like it just from a technical point of view

330
00:26:43,427 --> 00:26:52,468
it's very easy to prove guilt because the the the only reason that zero conf

331
00:26:52,468 --> 00:26:59,268
is not secure is because you could sign to transactions right I hope everyone is

332
00:26:59,268 --> 00:27:03,908
following this this part is not that hard to hopefully so like if you could

333
00:27:03,908 --> 00:27:09,908
only sign once with your private key then everything would be fine and there

334
00:27:09,908 --> 00:27:13,427
would be no need for okay so what does that mean well what it means is if you

335
00:27:13,427 --> 00:27:16,828
in order to exploit zero conf and defraud someone you have to sign the

336
00:27:16,828 --> 00:27:21,107
transaction then you the owner of the key you have to sign the second thing so

337
00:27:21,107 --> 00:27:25,948
one idea that a lot of people had is hey we can make it so that if anyone ever

338
00:27:25,987 --> 00:27:30,507
publishes both of them like if you assemble them together and say look this

339
00:27:30,507 --> 00:27:37,547
guy signed twice he signed twice and he didn't like add like a flag like for you

340
00:27:37,547 --> 00:27:41,867
know like for like replaced by fee or some legitimate way you could easily

341
00:27:41,867 --> 00:27:46,867
rope that off you can say well look then this proves that this person did the

342
00:27:46,867 --> 00:27:50,028
wrong thing and then people have suggested something you'd have bonds

343
00:27:50,028 --> 00:27:54,028
that like where miners can collect like you put like a $200 bond and then

344
00:27:54,028 --> 00:27:58,747
everything you buy that's less than $200 the merchant actually has a lot of

345
00:27:58,747 --> 00:28:07,348
assurance that if they reference this bond somehow in the transaction then now

346
00:28:07,348 --> 00:28:13,547
something that I always bring up and it's a long-winded speech but actually a

347
00:28:13,547 --> 00:28:19,388
lot of things don't need zero calm so even though it is a good experience most

348
00:28:19,388 --> 00:28:22,667
things don't but yeah I understand I agree that the user experience is going

349
00:28:22,667 --> 00:28:26,348
to kill people because people love you know attention is very scarce and people

350
00:28:26,348 --> 00:28:30,268
don't want to be like looking at the wallet to see how did it confirm so it

351
00:28:30,268 --> 00:28:33,067
is a very important thing but of course there's a lot of stuff that you can buy

352
00:28:33,067 --> 00:28:37,547
like if you buy something on Amazon you pot you buy you pay and if the

353
00:28:37,547 --> 00:28:41,987
transaction doesn't go through they just they can just interpret that as you

354
00:28:41,987 --> 00:28:47,588
canceling and then they just don't ship it to you so that's the whole category

355
00:28:47,588 --> 00:28:50,388
of things where it doesn't actually matter the speed like they can just say

356
00:28:50,388 --> 00:28:53,948
we got it they can see it in the men pool and say we have zero confim okay

357
00:28:53,948 --> 00:29:00,388
you so as long as you're not in a situation where blocks are full zero

358
00:29:00,388 --> 00:29:04,747
conf is actually really really really close to being secure already in a wide

359
00:29:04,747 --> 00:29:08,667
number of use cases I've also mentioned other situations like you buy something

360
00:29:08,667 --> 00:29:14,708
in person you buy coffee in person your face is on the video camera and it's

361
00:29:14,708 --> 00:29:17,987
just like kind of a small amount of money so then they can you know just

362
00:29:17,987 --> 00:29:23,588
refer to the police say this guy didn't pay he maliciously double-spent us and

363
00:29:23,588 --> 00:29:29,987
you know that's shoplifting or whatever I've also said that the you could just

364
00:29:29,987 --> 00:29:34,028
use the chain a different way so like you have bit refill where people spend

365
00:29:34,028 --> 00:29:40,747
their BTC on the gift card maybe that takes like one hour to get six

366
00:29:40,747 --> 00:29:44,627
confirmations but now once you have the gift card now you're back to the instant

367
00:29:44,627 --> 00:29:49,067
thing so you just reload every month so I have a whole little document full of

368
00:29:49,067 --> 00:29:52,987
ideas I did want to maybe publish a like at some kind of challenge where people

369
00:29:52,987 --> 00:29:56,187
could win a prize if they have any better ideas or if they find any ideas

370
00:29:56,187 --> 00:30:00,427
because a lot of ideas are found and then even I was like I remember a few

371
00:30:00,427 --> 00:30:04,148
different ideas like they had different names

372
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,700
and I tried to go back and find some of them but because of dead internet theory

373
00:30:07,700 --> 00:30:12,540
like there's a few that I know are out there that I like couldn't find so I

374
00:30:12,540 --> 00:30:17,980
don't know where they are but they were interesting back in the day yeah and

375
00:30:17,980 --> 00:30:22,940
what about the the cross-chain part because okay I'm pretty sure you were

376
00:30:22,940 --> 00:30:27,780
right that we can solve instant confirmations in other ways but what

377
00:30:27,780 --> 00:30:36,200
about the the cross-chain part we have that we call a coin shift and it's

378
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,759
yeah I've seen coin shift it's kind of an interesting I'm not saying that this

379
00:30:39,759 --> 00:30:42,680
is the magic bullet that will fix everything I mean you were saying before

380
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,360
we need companies and we need brands and we need whatever so I actually think the

381
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,320
exchanges make a lot of money on this on one weird development is that now these

382
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,680
days the exchanges and make so so much money but now if you just download like

383
00:30:54,680 --> 00:31:00,579
a normal app many of the apps today like the wallet apps they have like

384
00:31:00,579 --> 00:31:06,899
swaps and stuff built in and to the extent that like you know the exchange

385
00:31:06,899 --> 00:31:09,860
isn't sort of like widely available it's kind of snuck up on everybody snuck up

386
00:31:09,860 --> 00:31:13,860
on me I was like wow every every little phone wall it is like an exchange now

387
00:31:13,860 --> 00:31:18,780
and I don't remember handing over my personal information like my driver's

388
00:31:18,780 --> 00:31:26,000
license to any of these but I think but I think most of these are like on-chain

389
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:32,479
swaps so it has been the same train there are bridges you know but uh we

390
00:31:32,479 --> 00:31:38,559
have to settle on some design I mean it can be purely market-provided which is

391
00:31:38,559 --> 00:31:43,440
fine but but I would prefer if you had some like atomic swap kind of thing you

392
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:56,540
know yeah of course um like I think that yeah I don't think the idea behind

393
00:31:56,540 --> 00:32:00,540
coin shift is not even to be like this big thing at scale the coin shift is

394
00:32:00,540 --> 00:32:07,099
just supposed to be like as a last resort it will always be there so why

395
00:32:07,099 --> 00:32:11,820
not improve on it by you know operating an exchange business or something so it's

396
00:32:11,820 --> 00:32:19,560
kind of a little bit like it's kind of like a fallback type of an idea but it's

397
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,840
cool idea anyways we should try it out and it's a technically the way it works

398
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,920
is it just says when you run this sidechain it actually you have to run

399
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:30,180
you have to run as dependencies like all these other L1 nodes and then they like

400
00:32:30,180 --> 00:32:34,120
just like combines them all so it's just aware of every transaction yeah that's a

401
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:39,879
which is kind of a weird idea because like those chains like Litecoin and

402
00:32:39,879 --> 00:32:45,019
monero they are always hard-forking so like that yeah it will not work if they

403
00:32:45,019 --> 00:32:49,219
hard fork it will just it will have to either you either have to hard fork coin

404
00:32:49,219 --> 00:32:54,159
shift or it will just stop working with that and you'd have to sort of coin

405
00:32:54,159 --> 00:32:58,540
shift like two in like a nearby slot and it would just but yeah they shouldn't

406
00:32:58,540 --> 00:33:02,859
hard fork and that's a mistake but they do yeah but that's the thing they always

407
00:33:02,859 --> 00:33:06,499
do I think monero has this like six month or something

408
00:33:06,499 --> 00:33:12,239
hard fork policy yeah I mean they should have phased that out by now I

409
00:33:12,239 --> 00:33:16,939
think but they are doing something very ambitious recently this whole chain

410
00:33:16,939 --> 00:33:21,960
proof thing which is like much more ambitious than the ring signature so

411
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:29,439
that is so I suppose that would make it warranted but yeah the hard fork is it

412
00:33:29,439 --> 00:33:34,359
makes the whole thing custodial kind of because you need to know where to get

413
00:33:34,379 --> 00:33:43,540
the new software yeah that's why I'm not sure coin shift works and because of

414
00:33:43,540 --> 00:33:48,780
this because like they will hard fork you know their code yeah but the hard

415
00:33:48,780 --> 00:33:52,180
fork is kind of cheating to say it doesn't work because if you have imagine

416
00:33:52,180 --> 00:33:59,060
like you you scheme up some lightning thing lightning and monero swap that

417
00:33:59,060 --> 00:34:04,599
would still count as having you would still have to like update the you know

418
00:34:04,599 --> 00:34:10,639
the stack to deal with the new hard forked monero yeah but the difference is

419
00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:18,359
that in in coin shift what in practice is happening is that the coin shift

420
00:34:18,359 --> 00:34:23,919
L2 is the is deciding or the consensus of this this L2 is deciding what is the

421
00:34:23,919 --> 00:34:27,600
real monero or what is the real Litecoin whereas with when I have this

422
00:34:27,660 --> 00:34:35,620
lightning stuff you can still use the the old one if you want to know before

423
00:34:35,620 --> 00:34:39,539
I think that's probably true I suppose because it's just we'll be

424
00:34:39,539 --> 00:34:46,259
checking if the so yeah I think maybe you might be right about that um I you

425
00:34:46,259 --> 00:34:53,660
know I do think again that like I don't think that's you know enough to save that

426
00:34:53,660 --> 00:34:56,660
because the problem with light lightning is not you know the problem with

427
00:34:57,639 --> 00:35:01,639
the lightning I'm saying that atomic swaps in general lightning is just a

428
00:35:01,639 --> 00:35:07,840
part of this yeah well um we did program something once this was just like a

429
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:12,440
little toy experiment but yeah people have done this this type of thing like

430
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,440
we did like for fast withdrawals from Drivechain because the withdrawals are

431
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,919
slow but it's expected that people would just not use the BIP300 part to

432
00:35:18,919 --> 00:35:25,900
withdrawal they could just swap with someone and pay a small fee and and you

433
00:35:25,900 --> 00:35:29,900
know there's like a spectrum of this is not really answering your question at

434
00:35:29,900 --> 00:35:33,340
all but there's like a spectrum of like you know there's used to be like there

435
00:35:33,340 --> 00:35:40,280
used to be like Bitcoin OTC like over IRC and people would just send like you

436
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,000
know they were just like sending from instructions on where to send US dollars

437
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,699
people would send the US dollars and then they'd send the BTC and there was

438
00:35:46,699 --> 00:35:50,479
no there was no HTLC and there was no nothing and that's how a lot of stuff

439
00:35:50,479 --> 00:35:54,979
work so there's a lot of like sites where they just stand it's relies on the

440
00:35:54,979 --> 00:36:02,299
brand of the thing yeah the problem is that this you either have to trust the

441
00:36:02,299 --> 00:36:07,900
brand or you are introducing more friction you know so like the thing

442
00:36:07,900 --> 00:36:14,900
about both market swaps and atomic swaps is that they are well then there's no

443
00:36:14,900 --> 00:36:19,979
friction you know just press a button and then yeah so as I said that can

444
00:36:19,979 --> 00:36:25,579
indeed be done by by market swaps we have like a side shift and another

445
00:36:25,579 --> 00:36:35,419
right providers today like they work I just don't like that I don't like having

446
00:36:35,419 --> 00:36:41,539
to need them you know yeah I think that's that's very admirable I agree I

447
00:36:41,539 --> 00:36:44,900
mean a moment ago you said that it didn't bother you as much that a lot of

448
00:36:44,900 --> 00:36:51,859
lightning is custodial or whatever so not exactly what I said I mean it does

449
00:36:51,859 --> 00:36:57,739
bother me that lightning is custodial the part that doesn't bother me is some

450
00:36:57,739 --> 00:37:02,660
centralization and like LSPs and because like let's say Phoenix you know the

451
00:37:02,660 --> 00:37:07,460
Phoenix wallet in mobile is a non custodial wallets and you also have a

452
00:37:08,060 --> 00:37:13,100
specific LSP that you connect to and that's fine you know because the thing

453
00:37:13,100 --> 00:37:20,180
with the thing with having a brand is like I'm fine with having a brand that I

454
00:37:20,180 --> 00:37:24,819
need to trust in some manner you know like liking kind of trust what I don't

455
00:37:24,819 --> 00:37:28,180
like is having to trust them with my funds you know I need to know they're

456
00:37:28,180 --> 00:37:32,940
like if they fail you if they explode for any reason I can eventually take my

457
00:37:32,940 --> 00:37:37,139
funds back you know and lightning does provide that there are other models

458
00:37:37,139 --> 00:37:41,539
like arc that also provide this kind of thing with more centralization you know

459
00:37:41,539 --> 00:37:46,259
because everyone's on the same arcs and it can be efficient like I'm fine with

460
00:37:46,259 --> 00:37:51,739
these kinds of models you know yeah but I think actually the lightning style is

461
00:37:51,739 --> 00:37:57,139
worse because then the atomic swap style because when you atomic swap it's like

462
00:37:57,139 --> 00:38:03,940
it's like a very small ephemeral just short-lived trust it's like you you say

463
00:38:03,940 --> 00:38:10,060
I want to swap $500 of this coin for $500 of some other coin like coin or

464
00:38:10,060 --> 00:38:14,699
whatever and other than that your money is not with the other than that during

465
00:38:14,699 --> 00:38:18,699
this transaction your money is not with them but as if instead the idea is that

466
00:38:18,699 --> 00:38:27,539
everyone pays everyone on arc then a lot of your money is in the arc machine for

467
00:38:27,539 --> 00:38:31,380
example or in the LSP and that's not the good situation where it's kind of

468
00:38:31,380 --> 00:38:42,220
stored up I think I mean as long as you can enforce your unilateral exit or some

469
00:38:42,220 --> 00:38:47,460
kind of this you know you can't do though if it yeah you can't because

470
00:38:47,460 --> 00:38:53,740
there's no black space yeah yeah I understand that by you exactly they

471
00:38:53,740 --> 00:38:57,660
don't even like know it when they bring that up they don't really have any idea

472
00:38:57,660 --> 00:39:02,019
what they're talking about yeah I'm getting myself to them not to you of

473
00:39:02,019 --> 00:39:08,980
course but like you know it's like every year they they use the same lines yeah

474
00:39:08,980 --> 00:39:13,460
but that's the thing even though it's with Drivechains we can probably do

475
00:39:13,460 --> 00:39:21,540
better things that look like arc but are just better you know because arc kind of

476
00:39:21,540 --> 00:39:27,619
reminds me of a it's not roll-up but like those things that look like roll-ups

477
00:39:27,619 --> 00:39:31,819
you know they call it like validium and validia chains that kind of stuff you

478
00:39:31,819 --> 00:39:38,220
know arc kind of looks like some of these with other requirements to like

479
00:39:38,220 --> 00:39:42,619
you can do some very interesting stuff once you want to get to Drivechains

480
00:39:42,619 --> 00:39:46,900
because you can just build anything on Drivechains which brings me to another

481
00:39:46,900 --> 00:39:52,059
thing of me thinking which is we were going to launch with a few Drivechains

482
00:39:52,059 --> 00:39:57,699
I have noticed we don't have like a if side Drivechains are we going to have

483
00:39:57,699 --> 00:40:05,259
that all at lunch we built each side in I think it was like maybe 2023 or I

484
00:40:05,259 --> 00:40:10,939
don't know and I kind of lost interest in it honestly but it's a commonly

485
00:40:10,939 --> 00:40:17,579
requested thing I mean it's funny because a lot of people say they're in

486
00:40:17,579 --> 00:40:20,780
for the tech or they say if you're in socks and it's a shit coin or whatever I

487
00:40:20,780 --> 00:40:24,340
mean I kind of really I genuinely think aetherium isn't is actually not that

488
00:40:24,340 --> 00:40:27,220
interesting and a lot of what people do what are most people really actually do

489
00:40:27,220 --> 00:40:31,699
on aetherium is they're actually sending stable coins or they're doing they do

490
00:40:31,699 --> 00:40:36,059
like something else that's actually better handled by like either thunder or

491
00:40:36,059 --> 00:40:40,740
BitAssets or something yeah so I even though we built a fully working each

492
00:40:40,740 --> 00:40:45,819
side I like just totally lost interest in maintaining it or having people pay

493
00:40:45,819 --> 00:40:52,059
more attention to it so the question is bring it back or I mean I guess the

494
00:40:52,059 --> 00:40:56,860
answer is yes but I really like thought it's actually uninspiring and it just

495
00:40:56,860 --> 00:40:59,900
leads and the one good thing about it would be that you wouldn't have this

496
00:40:59,900 --> 00:41:03,300
problem where it's like aetherium versus Solana verse whatever you would just

497
00:41:03,300 --> 00:41:07,740
have like different aetheriums of like different sizes so I don't know I'm not

498
00:41:07,740 --> 00:41:14,300
exactly sure about that what to say about that but I think so I don't know

499
00:41:14,300 --> 00:41:18,259
because I think the it seems like on paper the answer should be of course

500
00:41:18,259 --> 00:41:23,619
we'll make each side but really I gotta just totally honest I'm just like I feel

501
00:41:23,619 --> 00:41:31,420
so bored like thinking about it and it's kind of like but I think maybe you know

502
00:41:31,420 --> 00:41:34,540
maybe I don't know I have no idea if more people are interested in it then

503
00:41:34,540 --> 00:41:38,619
obviously they could I think it's a good idea to have I don't know how many

504
00:41:38,619 --> 00:41:41,340
people actually use it I don't know how many people actually use any any of the

505
00:41:41,340 --> 00:41:47,819
stuff of course I guess it's a long-winded and rambling answer so sorry

506
00:41:47,819 --> 00:41:55,379
about that I don't know yeah the thing with inside is like I agree that if is

507
00:41:55,379 --> 00:42:00,579
not really that interesting you know it has a lot of problems with like with gas

508
00:42:00,699 --> 00:42:08,740
and whatever but the the thing is I think it's interesting for two

509
00:42:08,740 --> 00:42:15,379
perspectives first of all even if it's not interesting by itself I think it's

510
00:42:15,379 --> 00:42:20,780
interesting as a testing ground for like more exotic Drivechain kind of

511
00:42:20,780 --> 00:42:29,059
experimentation because like let's say I want to to build a new Drivechain right

512
00:42:29,059 --> 00:42:34,059
and I want to test out the idea out in the wild like now you know but I don't

513
00:42:34,059 --> 00:42:38,220
I don't want to or I cannot for some reason maybe I don't have enough support

514
00:42:38,220 --> 00:42:44,019
or whatever of the miners I just want to try out some new design I can do it on

515
00:42:44,019 --> 00:42:50,579
like each side you know I can build my my Drivechain right there and because

516
00:42:50,579 --> 00:42:54,059
it's during complete I can just run anything there right so even though it's

517
00:42:54,059 --> 00:42:58,179
it's not gonna be efficient it might work as a testing ground and then later

518
00:42:58,179 --> 00:43:03,579
I can make it into an actual driving which enters another thing I was thinking

519
00:43:03,579 --> 00:43:09,220
which is governance you know because a lot of chains have this governance talk

520
00:43:09,220 --> 00:43:16,660
and I wonder how it will pan out in over here because like yeah we can have other

521
00:43:16,660 --> 00:43:22,179
Drivechains technically but then again the thing it's it's social consensus you

522
00:43:22,179 --> 00:43:26,780
know we need miners running it we need miners to think it's a good idea which

523
00:43:26,819 --> 00:43:32,340
doesn't seem to have worked out for BTC because in BTC we could technically have

524
00:43:32,340 --> 00:43:36,579
Drivechains miners could just like run PIP 300 and 300 on software but they

525
00:43:36,579 --> 00:43:45,460
didn't so like why I don't know like why would they run new Drivechains on after

526
00:43:45,460 --> 00:43:50,340
launch you know well yeah those are very good questions let me try to do them in

527
00:43:50,340 --> 00:43:55,420
order first of all about aetherium with the gas I'm glad you brought that up

528
00:43:55,420 --> 00:43:59,220
because basically aetherium says you can do anything you want but you have to

529
00:43:59,220 --> 00:44:03,980
pay this gas cost but actually with with sidechains it's kind of like you can

530
00:44:03,980 --> 00:44:06,900
already do whatever you want launch any sidechain you want and there's no gas

531
00:44:06,900 --> 00:44:11,499
cost so there's just a full node that people have to run and that's that's

532
00:44:11,499 --> 00:44:16,420
better in many ways because certain things the full node should just like

533
00:44:16,420 --> 00:44:20,379
tank for everyone like it should just have like the state and then other than

534
00:44:20,379 --> 00:44:25,300
like why charge anyone gas if you don't need to just charge transaction fee which

535
00:44:25,300 --> 00:44:30,059
is way way way better there's another point that I made this is an argument I

536
00:44:30,059 --> 00:44:35,100
made back in 2015 2016 a long time ago you know basically 10 years ago more

537
00:44:35,100 --> 00:44:42,100
than 10 years ago and you know the argument when something like this was

538
00:44:42,100 --> 00:44:45,699
called I called it like categorical control or like topical control which

539
00:44:45,699 --> 00:44:50,220
was like in the EVM you can do whatever you want but that actually might be kind

540
00:44:50,220 --> 00:44:55,019
of annoying because people might make weird contracts that like attack other

541
00:44:55,019 --> 00:44:58,059
contracts or

542
00:44:56,567 --> 00:45:00,787
do something where they just like crowd something else out yeah that was a

543
00:45:00,787 --> 00:45:04,427
sidechain privatization I've seen that one that's exactly right yes thank you

544
00:45:04,427 --> 00:45:09,747
for watching that yeah you can see that was way ahead of its time and even now

545
00:45:09,747 --> 00:45:13,907
like I don't even think there's like enough of a shared language for people

546
00:45:13,907 --> 00:45:19,946
even talk about it now but I thought the title was good and so I was thinking

547
00:45:19,946 --> 00:45:26,107
like you know the people will grow frustrated with this this this this open

548
00:45:26,107 --> 00:45:30,486
chain and they'll actually they'll get they're tired of it you know then to

549
00:45:30,486 --> 00:45:32,887
build these special-purpose chains around that'll kind of be a little bit

550
00:45:32,887 --> 00:45:37,247
more efficient because I have some kind of state that is related to their

551
00:45:37,247 --> 00:45:40,747
purpose like the name sidechain can have like the registry of names they

552
00:45:40,747 --> 00:45:46,247
can do stuff with that whereas the EVM chain we have to kind of like have

553
00:45:46,247 --> 00:45:50,567
everything of everything and so so this is a theoretical argument that I made I

554
00:45:50,567 --> 00:45:55,127
have no idea if it's gonna actually pan out or if it you know already has panned

555
00:45:55,147 --> 00:45:59,666
out maybe to some extent yeah for what I've seen I don't think that happens I

556
00:45:59,666 --> 00:46:04,827
haven't seen any like smart contract attacking each other haven't ever seen

557
00:46:04,827 --> 00:46:09,266
that kind of thing happening yeah be interesting if it just sort of never

558
00:46:09,266 --> 00:46:15,227
happened or if if miners wanted to build something to just filter it but now

559
00:46:15,227 --> 00:46:19,067
we're ending I'm gonna end up like Luke Dashjr. where we have the moral

560
00:46:19,067 --> 00:46:23,346
committee that filters out the bad transactions which seems like a kind of

561
00:46:23,346 --> 00:46:28,526
bad road to go down I mean that's the thing miners seem very passive you know

562
00:46:28,526 --> 00:46:36,047
because like there was an article on I think it was like Litecoin you know the

563
00:46:36,047 --> 00:46:41,047
the guy Litecoin I don't know his name he wrote an article basically saying

564
00:46:41,047 --> 00:46:46,026
that there was an optimistic bridge you know which technically miners could

565
00:46:46,026 --> 00:46:50,327
steal from that bridge and yet they didn't and it was operating for like

566
00:46:50,327 --> 00:46:55,626
years and years and they didn't ever attack it and this had like billions of

567
00:46:55,626 --> 00:47:01,747
dollars in of very similar Drivechain is very very similar to like and then when

568
00:47:01,747 --> 00:47:05,147
the people shorten it so there was this thing wormhole or something a lot of the

569
00:47:05,147 --> 00:47:08,447
stuff was very similar to drive to you know except that it it kind of pushed

570
00:47:08,447 --> 00:47:13,947
the envelope on like the parameters and then some of those guys rainbow bridge I

571
00:47:13,947 --> 00:47:17,387
think it was called rainbow bridge yeah but the ones that are more similar to

572
00:47:17,387 --> 00:47:24,326
Drivechain worked just fine which is you know sort of very validating I think

573
00:47:24,326 --> 00:47:32,527
and so the okay well that brings me to the second question about governance

574
00:47:32,527 --> 00:47:36,126
first of all I think this is a very misunderstood idea like people think

575
00:47:36,126 --> 00:47:43,406
like Oh Bitcoin Core is running BTC and then Paul's gonna run eCash not true

576
00:47:43,406 --> 00:47:49,826
and it's gonna be like then people are gonna discover how hard it is to run a

577
00:47:49,826 --> 00:47:53,427
project or something and that Bitcoin Core is not perfect but it's better than

578
00:47:53,427 --> 00:47:59,947
all that's completely false like the the L1 on eCash will be identical to

579
00:47:59,947 --> 00:48:03,326
Bitcoin Core both now and like in the future it won't be literally identical

580
00:48:03,326 --> 00:48:08,027
but it'll you know basically be identical and whatever they merge will

581
00:48:08,027 --> 00:48:14,567
just be merged they'll be the same the BIP300/301 enforcer which is how BIP

582
00:48:14,567 --> 00:48:20,167
300 301 is activated and used that should be like a completable task so

583
00:48:20,167 --> 00:48:26,807
ideally it would already be done now I'm sure there are some tweaks but ideally

584
00:48:26,807 --> 00:48:32,746
it would not even have to be changed ever again after the project launches

585
00:48:32,746 --> 00:48:37,206
and ideally even months before the project launches so that's a

586
00:48:37,206 --> 00:48:40,507
completable thing and then these L2s they're a little bit more like oh yeah

587
00:48:40,507 --> 00:48:44,587
sure like I'm gonna have like L2s that I like and that I'm opinionated about but

588
00:48:44,587 --> 00:48:52,227
the L2s are kind of like add delete whatever L2s the miners want now this

589
00:48:52,227 --> 00:48:56,826
is it leads directly to your point about why did you know if the miners are not

590
00:48:56,826 --> 00:49:02,507
in in the BTC world the miners could already add or subtract Drivechains at

591
00:49:02,507 --> 00:49:09,727
will individual ones ones as a set my honest explanation for why they have not

592
00:49:09,727 --> 00:49:15,086
is that they just they don't have any understanding of the issues at all which

593
00:49:15,086 --> 00:49:18,406
I think is a big problem for them because they constantly complain about

594
00:49:18,406 --> 00:49:23,167
they actually complain about having no money and they complain that nothing is

595
00:49:23,167 --> 00:49:29,406
activating and even I made a joke at in Las Vegas I was on stage and security

596
00:49:29,406 --> 00:49:33,186
budget day one you can find it security budget panel and I was like hey listen

597
00:49:33,186 --> 00:49:39,966
to Nick at from Luxor CEO of Luxor and I was like oh listen you guys you know you

598
00:49:39,966 --> 00:49:44,547
run a pool you could call of your pool friends and you could just activate 15

599
00:49:44,547 --> 00:49:50,887
soft forks if you really wanted to and you know people kind of laughed and he

600
00:49:50,887 --> 00:49:54,987
kind of nothing to say to that I would be interested in exploring that now I

601
00:49:54,987 --> 00:49:58,626
think part of the passivity of the miners has been like bred into them or

602
00:49:58,626 --> 00:50:02,926
beaten into them however you want to think about it because the soft work

603
00:50:02,926 --> 00:50:06,086
used to not be controversial at all this is I'm gonna give you a long war story

604
00:50:06,086 --> 00:50:11,607
now but hopefully not too long but you know the soft work didn't used to be

605
00:50:11,607 --> 00:50:15,567
controversial at all and there was no controversy at all it was just it was

606
00:50:15,567 --> 00:50:20,207
just a code change that happened to not do anything until 51% of the miners

607
00:50:20,207 --> 00:50:24,607
upgraded to the new version so it meant very very very little and there are even

608
00:50:24,607 --> 00:50:30,866
many embarrassing instances where like stuff was not activated right or minor

609
00:50:30,866 --> 00:50:38,626
signal that they updated but they didn't actually update and so they well it's

610
00:50:38,626 --> 00:50:45,846
already 551 all right I guess we'll have to go to 630 but so they were like they

611
00:50:45,846 --> 00:50:49,507
would do all this stuff and but none of it was controversial at all and even

612
00:50:49,507 --> 00:50:52,547
when SegWit happened it wasn't the SegWit part that was controversial

613
00:50:52,547 --> 00:50:57,107
SegWit was just held hostage because the miners had been convinced by large

614
00:50:57,107 --> 00:51:03,306
blockers that the core developers were not necessarily acting in what they

615
00:51:03,306 --> 00:51:08,507
thought was their best interest so they decided to you know if they're like oh

616
00:51:08,507 --> 00:51:11,827
you're not gonna do what I want I won't do what you want and this whole thing

617
00:51:11,827 --> 00:51:17,146
became like and that was SegWit and then Taproot was kind of like a weird image

618
00:51:17,146 --> 00:51:24,026
reverse shadow echo of that and then nothing has happened since so the fact

619
00:51:24,026 --> 00:51:31,507
that miners are too passive that is why BTC is gonna die off so that it's not

620
00:51:31,507 --> 00:51:39,947
like a permanent feature of Bitcoin. Yeah, about that, so well eCash is hard fork and it

621
00:51:39,947 --> 00:51:43,987
has the those properties of like basically trying to steal hash rate

622
00:51:43,987 --> 00:51:50,947
because it's the same it has a bigger potential for for fees and also it has

623
00:51:50,947 --> 00:51:56,507
the same mining algorithms like it tries to kill Bitcoin right so first of all

624
00:51:56,507 --> 00:52:02,107
between cash kind of tried but it didn't I'm not even sure if they still use the

625
00:52:02,107 --> 00:52:10,866
same hashing algorithm but whatever so the thing is right now my what I expect

626
00:52:10,866 --> 00:52:20,466
will happen is that launch day comes the price just goes down absurdly and and

627
00:52:20,466 --> 00:52:28,267
then sometime later it it starts getting some some users and whatever and but it

628
00:52:28,267 --> 00:52:34,586
it just becomes another altcoin you know that's what I imagine will happen so

629
00:52:34,586 --> 00:52:40,387
like I'm at the point where I think I'm pretty sure this is a good idea you know

630
00:52:40,387 --> 00:52:46,146
even with the the shed stuff which is not doesn't look good I think it's a good

631
00:52:46,146 --> 00:52:51,186
idea and I think the price will increase you know but it will be something like

632
00:52:51,186 --> 00:52:59,026
would be BSH that now and at the same time even though I think the fork is a

633
00:52:59,026 --> 00:53:05,507
good idea I think it will not overthrow Bitcoin we maybe maybe if we got enough

634
00:53:05,507 --> 00:53:11,827
users it's gonna be a situation where like we have we can have maybe more more

635
00:53:11,827 --> 00:53:16,707
hash rate but then bitcoins is still the king which is gonna be a really strange

636
00:53:16,707 --> 00:53:22,906
situation if that happens at all but now I'm like I'm pessimistic but I wanted to

637
00:53:22,906 --> 00:53:27,906
be optimistic you know yeah well sure let me just finish the governance idea

638
00:53:27,906 --> 00:53:34,467
of like why would miners you know activate why would they care about

639
00:53:34,587 --> 00:53:40,507
specific Drivechains I think it would be a very different story after you know

640
00:53:40,507 --> 00:53:46,147
in a world where it's like the coin has been specifically created for this with

641
00:53:46,147 --> 00:53:49,347
this design in mind that there will be these scaling and layers but the layers

642
00:53:49,347 --> 00:53:54,347
we merge mined L2s and most of the transaction fee revenue that miners get

643
00:53:54,347 --> 00:54:01,786
will come to them I think they would now they have a much more direct they can

644
00:54:01,786 --> 00:54:05,746
they've seen it they see it with their own two eyes that all when we we get

645
00:54:05,746 --> 00:54:09,426
money from each of these so that I think that makes it much easier for the one

646
00:54:09,426 --> 00:54:12,387
one thing that's been just depressing is that you would think the pools would

647
00:54:12,387 --> 00:54:20,746
specialize because they they are kind of like if you imagine a world where like

648
00:54:20,746 --> 00:54:27,387
okay so people defer to the pool like the pool as a brand and the pool is like

649
00:54:27,387 --> 00:54:33,226
one person who's like full-time job is to assemble the blocks and maintain the

650
00:54:33,226 --> 00:54:38,947
block construction whereas the individual hashers they are diffuse and

651
00:54:38,947 --> 00:54:42,507
they have only this very small percentage of the hash rate so you would

652
00:54:42,507 --> 00:54:45,507
think like yeah like foundry would have like a whole department about like oh

653
00:54:45,507 --> 00:54:49,186
what should we do about quantum what should we do about whatever and they

654
00:54:49,186 --> 00:54:55,027
would put out now I happen to know about one historical fact that happened which

655
00:54:55,027 --> 00:55:00,226
is that they knew about the epic sat the ordinal sat and foundry emailed

656
00:55:00,226 --> 00:55:04,347
suppose this is what I was told by you know reputable sources maybe it's not

657
00:55:04,347 --> 00:55:09,467
it but you know I'm pretty I believed it I still believe it they were told that

658
00:55:09,467 --> 00:55:13,986
excuse me I was told that they emailed their members they said we will isolate

659
00:55:13,986 --> 00:55:18,426
the epic sat ordinal which is coming up

660
00:55:18,626 --> 00:55:22,507
for for you guys and then we'll sell it and give you guys the money and then

661
00:55:22,507 --> 00:55:26,426
apparently they got a big backlash from this like people are messaging them and

662
00:55:26,426 --> 00:55:30,587
because the you know ordinals was conflated ordinals and inscriptions this

663
00:55:30,587 --> 00:55:35,587
has become controversial and so people were emailing foundry saying why are

664
00:55:35,587 --> 00:55:38,746
you getting us involved with this ordinals controversy and so the

665
00:55:38,746 --> 00:55:42,387
foundry instead did nothing and then it was via BTC that mind the epic sat this

666
00:55:42,387 --> 00:55:47,626
is one single Satoshi so worth almost nothing you know fractions of a penny

667
00:55:47,626 --> 00:55:58,106
and but they sold that for like 13 BTC so this is a story about how it's not

668
00:55:58,106 --> 00:56:05,306
good enough for the pools to know what they're talking about there can't be any

669
00:56:05,306 --> 00:56:11,186
just it can't be huge discrepancy or a huge mistrust between the pools and

670
00:56:11,186 --> 00:56:14,426
their clients so now you see actually this is all lightning's fault actually

671
00:56:14,426 --> 00:56:19,186
because it's not lightning specifically but when you when you have a culture

672
00:56:19,186 --> 00:56:22,947
where everyone believes false things and all kinds of nonsense is constantly

673
00:56:22,947 --> 00:56:27,546
spreading and people are paranoid and mistrustful which is you know healthy to

674
00:56:27,546 --> 00:56:38,226
some extent but we have to fight against like massive lies which are being told

675
00:56:38,226 --> 00:56:41,986
in the Bitcoin community by Bitcoiners to other Bitcoiners on like an enormous

676
00:56:42,106 --> 00:56:47,147
scale and there's a huge fallout from this so then foundry decided oh we'll

677
00:56:47,147 --> 00:56:53,186
just have no opinion on anything and so I don't think that would you know I don't

678
00:56:53,186 --> 00:56:58,907
to me that doesn't apply at all to when you have a different you know you hard

679
00:56:58,907 --> 00:57:03,426
fork and into eCash and you have this separate thing and there if this is

680
00:57:03,426 --> 00:57:07,467
directly in their financial interest to add more L2s and try them out and

681
00:57:07,467 --> 00:57:11,546
only get rid of them if they are kind of causing some kind of huge hit to the

682
00:57:11,546 --> 00:57:18,027
bottom line in some mysterious way which is very unlikely to come up in the

683
00:57:18,027 --> 00:57:22,707
first place this is very hard to add a Drivechain that like decreases total

684
00:57:22,707 --> 00:57:26,947
mining revenues so of course they would be thinking oh we should add them and of

685
00:57:26,947 --> 00:57:33,467
course if if they can't if you can't convince miners to add the L2 then that

686
00:57:33,467 --> 00:57:39,666
it might mean that the L2 is just not that compelling at first just the fact

687
00:57:39,666 --> 00:57:43,106
that we'd have two or three L2s this I think this dramatically alters

688
00:57:43,106 --> 00:57:47,947
governance so if we just ship with a few different L2s it's no longer it's a

689
00:57:47,947 --> 00:57:51,587
completely different governance situation where it's like with Bitcoin

690
00:57:51,587 --> 00:57:57,827
core if you try and you get rejected then it's kind of like sort of shameful

691
00:57:57,827 --> 00:58:02,587
for you even if your idea was good and then now it becomes awkward for Bitcoin

692
00:58:02,587 --> 00:58:06,186
core they can never admit that they made a mistake it'll be awkward for them if

693
00:58:06,186 --> 00:58:08,546
the idea ever succeeds but it's completely different when you can go

694
00:58:08,546 --> 00:58:11,106
across the street from one L2 to a different like if you had Thunder one

695
00:58:11,106 --> 00:58:18,426
Thunder two and then he was like oh I'm gonna take my idea to the other L2 then

696
00:58:18,426 --> 00:58:23,426
fine I think that's very or I'm gonna embark upon the process to create a new

697
00:58:23,426 --> 00:58:30,186
L2 so I think it's a completely different situation in many ways now of

698
00:58:30,186 --> 00:58:35,027
course it could still be the case we could still learn that miners attention

699
00:58:35,027 --> 00:58:43,147
is so well yeah it's just easier to get away with being passive like you know

700
00:58:43,147 --> 00:58:46,347
you have a bunch of mining pools hey what's their opinion on such and such

701
00:58:46,347 --> 00:58:51,507
mostly they just haven't weighed in so yeah I think it's a governance defect in

702
00:58:51,507 --> 00:58:57,666
Bitcoin that you know it could be fixed but no one even cares because the whole

703
00:58:57,666 --> 00:59:02,666
situation as a whole is so screwed up that it's it would be it would actually

704
00:59:02,786 --> 00:59:07,546
even if you fix like pools having an opinion on things which you could fix if

705
00:59:07,546 --> 00:59:12,746
you tried it wouldn't really change the fact that you know people like core

706
00:59:12,746 --> 00:59:15,947
don't want to stick out there they're cowards and they don't want to stick out

707
00:59:15,947 --> 00:59:20,786
their neck on for anything that is actually interesting and people like

708
00:59:20,786 --> 00:59:24,267
Michael Saylor don't want any Bitcoin development to take place at all and

709
00:59:24,267 --> 00:59:29,027
they don't want any privacy improvements and

710
00:59:29,387 --> 00:59:33,707
probably theoretically happy that the samurai devs went to jail I would

711
00:59:33,707 --> 00:59:38,387
imagine that's the true that's logically implied by Michael Saylor's position so

712
00:59:38,387 --> 00:59:44,986
we already live in this world where everything is totally out of whack so I

713
00:59:44,986 --> 00:59:50,587
think that the governance situation is fine now we go back to the hash rate you

714
00:59:50,587 --> 00:59:54,426
had laid out a scenario where

715
00:59:53,243 --> 00:59:57,363
coin launches and you say the price goes down but that's kind of weird isn't it

716
00:59:57,363 --> 01:00:02,763
because really the price is kind of basically zero before it exists that's

717
01:00:02,763 --> 01:00:09,983
my interpretation is that it can only go up yeah I mean like from the starting

718
01:00:09,983 --> 01:00:15,363
price or whatever that is it keeps going down for some time that's what I meant

719
01:00:15,363 --> 01:00:20,202
yeah a lot of people will sell a lot of these people are dead weight and we need

720
01:00:20,202 --> 01:00:24,563
them to sell so that's and I think a lot of people are way some people have

721
01:00:24,563 --> 01:00:31,202
the opinion that is it's pointless to actually promote the coin until you know

722
01:00:31,202 --> 01:00:36,403
like people are waiting for like the low price automatically is like a feedback

723
01:00:36,403 --> 01:00:40,323
loop that actually helps the project so the high price helps and the low price

724
01:00:40,323 --> 01:00:44,202
helps it sounds paradoxical and weird and it sort of is to some extent but if

725
01:00:44,202 --> 01:00:47,603
you think about it like this the high price helps obviously because it's

726
01:00:47,603 --> 01:00:51,842
validating for the project and it makes everything oh this was the right idea

727
01:00:51,842 --> 01:00:55,323
and they think now not only do I know this is a good idea but a lot of other

728
01:00:55,323 --> 01:01:00,403
people know as well so that's very very good obviously but the the low price

729
01:01:00,403 --> 01:01:05,323
also it also invites a little bit of thought for people where they say well

730
01:01:05,323 --> 01:01:10,842
hey listen before such-and-such was the case but now the price is so low that

731
01:01:10,842 --> 01:01:16,963
you know if I just sell 1% of my BTC or whatever it is I can accumulate a huge

732
01:01:17,003 --> 01:01:22,003
quantity of this this other thing and so anyone out there who thinks oh you know

733
01:01:22,003 --> 01:01:26,762
what what this project needs is just one or two or three things and I can I could

734
01:01:26,762 --> 01:01:32,243
give it one of them and maybe I could find someone to give it the other two

735
01:01:32,243 --> 01:01:37,482
now they have an incentive to buy tune up the project like maybe all the only

736
01:01:37,482 --> 01:01:41,202
thing the project needs is the right way of explaining the project or maybe it

737
01:01:41,202 --> 01:01:44,283
needs you know whatever wallet or something just these are just examples

738
01:01:44,283 --> 01:01:54,003
but so the lower the price will kind of have to go we kind of do need because

739
01:01:54,003 --> 01:01:58,202
again the problem is cultural so we want we need the community to separate and we

740
01:01:58,202 --> 01:02:03,922
need different people to be different stakeholders on the coin because until

741
01:02:03,922 --> 01:02:09,882
you do that why would anyone unveil their big their big move because the way

742
01:02:09,882 --> 01:02:14,362
to make money is to hope that if you really if you're a true believer you

743
01:02:14,362 --> 01:02:18,442
kind of want to hope that you can accumulate at a very low price and then

744
01:02:18,442 --> 01:02:23,802
reveal your big thing and you know when the hard fork occurs there'll be

745
01:02:23,802 --> 01:02:29,123
millions of people who own the coin and maybe find out maybe not all of them

746
01:02:29,123 --> 01:02:34,442
will find out about it but then that is certainly it leads to these

747
01:02:34,442 --> 01:02:39,082
conversations about okay what exactly will ETFs and all these people do with

748
01:02:39,082 --> 01:02:45,522
the coin they could try to ignore it or destroy it or sell it or whatever but

749
01:02:45,522 --> 01:02:48,843
then the point is to have to you know I think all those things any of those

750
01:02:48,843 --> 01:02:53,963
things would be good actually for the project now the the issue is the end

751
01:02:53,963 --> 01:03:02,882
game the end game is everything in chess and usually in life but not always so

752
01:03:02,882 --> 01:03:07,243
you were saying in your little story that the price go down we'll get some

753
01:03:07,243 --> 01:03:11,243
users and then it'll become like an altcoin then you said something kind of

754
01:03:11,243 --> 01:03:14,243
curious or you said oh maybe one day I'll have more hash rate but it will

755
01:03:14,243 --> 01:03:22,082
still be low on the list the scenario that interests me the most is a scenario

756
01:03:22,082 --> 01:03:27,683
where the transaction fee revenues from usage so forget about the exchange rate

757
01:03:27,683 --> 01:03:33,722
but the exchange rate transaction fees are rising geometrically so that doesn't

758
01:03:33,722 --> 01:03:42,683
mean super high but maybe they go up let's say they go up 10% every year to

759
01:03:42,683 --> 01:03:47,243
me this means that eventually there will be a time just mathematically so say

760
01:03:47,243 --> 01:03:53,403
BTCs transaction fees are flat but on eCash across all the L2s they grow

761
01:03:53,403 --> 01:03:59,123
10% a year and you know like we have to zoom way out here depending on where we

762
01:03:59,123 --> 01:04:05,642
started because 10% of 45 cents is a lot less than 10% of like whatever 100

763
01:04:05,642 --> 01:04:08,882
billion dollars but you know have you ever played that game where someone says

764
01:04:08,882 --> 01:04:13,883
would you rather have a million dollars or would you rather one penny on January

765
01:04:13,883 --> 01:04:19,003
1st and then two pennies on January 2nd and then four pennies on January 3rd and

766
01:04:19,003 --> 01:04:25,322
then you get to January 31st and then you stop and that's the thing about

767
01:04:25,322 --> 01:04:31,243
geometric growth is it accumulates to an enormous extent and so if you get to

768
01:04:31,243 --> 01:04:33,922
a point where the transaction fee revenues and of course what are

769
01:04:33,922 --> 01:04:38,762
bitcoins what are BTCs transaction fee revenues today very very low and the

770
01:04:38,762 --> 01:04:44,322
block subsidy cannot be bolstered significantly by increases in price any

771
01:04:44,322 --> 01:04:49,003
longer both because the price can't go up very much but also because the

772
01:04:49,003 --> 01:04:58,283
halvings cut 95% every 16 years they cut 95% of them and of the block

773
01:04:58,283 --> 01:05:04,042
subsidy value anyway so so if you have a situation where BTC transaction fees are

774
01:05:04,042 --> 01:05:08,082
like sort of basically flat paid to miners and you have a situation where

775
01:05:08,082 --> 01:05:14,922
rival chain is going up 10% per year you'll eventually reach a point where

776
01:05:14,922 --> 01:05:21,082
they go up so much they're going up so much in each two-week period that it

777
01:05:21,082 --> 01:05:27,042
will just drain all 100% of the hash rate from BTC because eventually it will

778
01:05:27,042 --> 01:05:32,843
be just leaping up by such a huge amount that it will take basically forever for

779
01:05:32,843 --> 01:05:38,003
the BTC hash rate to adjust down and then once it does adjust down it'll

780
01:05:38,003 --> 01:05:44,322
already be too late because the fee rate will just keep growing now of course you

781
01:05:44,322 --> 01:05:48,042
know you have to like take out a pen and a paper and try to figure out when

782
01:05:48,042 --> 01:05:53,283
if ever that might happen but that is like a guaranteed win in the endgame if

783
01:05:53,283 --> 01:05:57,443
nothing changed now of course a million things would change you know BTC probably

784
01:05:57,443 --> 01:06:03,883
activate Drivechains at some point or something similar maybe I don't know but

785
01:06:03,883 --> 01:06:07,683
they won't actually if the if I'm right about how screwed up the culture is

786
01:06:07,683 --> 01:06:10,642
which the culture is screwed up because basically everything that everyone says

787
01:06:10,642 --> 01:06:16,802
is you know I don't know what the exact word to describe it is but basically we

788
01:06:16,802 --> 01:06:21,963
live in a world where in Bitcoin a lot of people are lying to themselves about

789
01:06:21,963 --> 01:06:26,883
like why the project is important or how to add value to it or whether or not

790
01:06:26,883 --> 01:06:33,362
it's important that we have any users or whether or not it's like do we need

791
01:06:33,362 --> 01:06:38,762
revenue for miners do we need privacy do we need developers do we need do we

792
01:06:38,802 --> 01:06:42,642
actually compete against these other coins people are lying to themselves on

793
01:06:42,642 --> 01:06:47,883
a huge massive scale lightning is just one example of that and I think the

794
01:06:47,883 --> 01:06:51,683
situation is probably unfixable and that will mean that all the smart people will

795
01:06:51,683 --> 01:06:57,563
just keep leaving and that's why that's the real death spiral is just that it's

796
01:06:57,563 --> 01:07:06,403
everyone's just eggs of liquidity. Yeah but like money has no effect you

797
01:07:06,403 --> 01:07:15,322
definitely know that so the thing is my current expectation is that it will both

798
01:07:15,322 --> 01:07:22,683
be the case that eCash will be in some sense a success but also that Bitcoin

799
01:07:22,683 --> 01:07:27,522
will stay being king you know because like you can very much sustain a

800
01:07:27,522 --> 01:07:32,563
situation where you know you have like centralized lightning and custodians and

801
01:07:32,563 --> 01:07:37,443
whatever and people mostly use it through through them and then also it's

802
01:07:37,443 --> 01:07:41,683
the number one because like kind of like the gold standard you know people use

803
01:07:41,683 --> 01:07:49,563
banks and whatever which was not ideal but it worked and so I imagine that's my

804
01:07:49,563 --> 01:07:54,482
my current expectation that it will both be the case that yes eCash will have

805
01:07:54,482 --> 01:08:00,322
some success but also that Bitcoin will stay being the king and it will just

806
01:08:00,362 --> 01:08:05,522
become a centralized thing in that sense. Well I think the network effect both ways

807
01:08:05,522 --> 01:08:10,802
because Bitcoin is currently held up by a lot of high expectations that the

808
01:08:10,802 --> 01:08:15,163
price will continue to go up that it will eventually take over as global

809
01:08:15,163 --> 01:08:18,522
money like a lot of people have these expectations so that's that's lifting

810
01:08:18,522 --> 01:08:24,922
BTC up. I think you know what has stronger network effects than Bitcoin is

811
01:08:24,922 --> 01:08:29,482
the US dollar so if you only think network effects matter then the US

812
01:08:29,523 --> 01:08:35,243
dollar is going to stomp Bitcoin into the ground but you clearly don't think

813
01:08:35,243 --> 01:08:40,563
that and you know the network effect has the opposite issue like I was talking

814
01:08:40,563 --> 01:08:46,282
about where the network effect has like I was I just mentioned before like if

815
01:08:46,282 --> 01:08:49,922
the price is low then anyone who thinks oh you know what no you know what this

816
01:08:49,922 --> 01:08:53,083
project needs to increase the price is just these one two or three things I'm

817
01:08:53,083 --> 01:08:56,083
gonna buy and then do those things and then as part of the whole project I'm

818
01:08:56,083 --> 01:08:59,722
gonna make money that the opposite is true and this has already happened in

819
01:08:59,722 --> 01:09:03,842
BTC where we the Bitcoin used to have lots and lots of lots of really smart

820
01:09:03,842 --> 01:09:07,162
people but as the price has gone up a lot of people have just you know they

821
01:09:07,162 --> 01:09:10,722
just shrug and they just decide you know I've got a family now I've got a got a

822
01:09:10,722 --> 01:09:16,802
kids and people just quit so the smartest best people who who joined

823
01:09:16,802 --> 01:09:20,842
Bitcoin the earliest because like if you joined Bitcoin after 2019 then you know

824
01:09:20,842 --> 01:09:26,402
you really don't have an opinion about about anything and so but all these the

825
01:09:26,402 --> 01:09:32,083
smartest people who joined earliest they they a lot of them just like kind of

826
01:09:32,083 --> 01:09:39,683
basically retired or left and so the network effect hits the other way

827
01:09:39,683 --> 01:09:43,842
because it's like the price is high but it's like oh yeah just liquidate so I

828
01:09:43,842 --> 01:09:50,402
mean I agree to some extent but I think that really what we've seen is yeah a

829
01:09:50,402 --> 01:09:54,003
lot of complacency because Bitcoin has been number one for so long people just

830
01:09:54,003 --> 01:09:59,722
think I mean there's numerous examples fall of Rome it being the big one but

831
01:09:59,722 --> 01:10:04,883
there's many examples of people just saying well you know this this has been

832
01:10:04,883 --> 01:10:08,443
around for a long time it's pretty hard to make something

833
01:10:08,443 --> 01:10:12,042
permanent especially when it's constantly lying to itself about

834
01:10:12,042 --> 01:10:19,362
important issues so I think actually the network effect is going to be

835
01:10:19,362 --> 01:10:24,763
it's the partly the Novocaine that blinds everyone to the all the the

836
01:10:24,763 --> 01:10:28,402
problems in BTC people just think well here's number one so anything you can

837
01:10:28,402 --> 01:10:31,523
come up with any problem you want you could say look I found this really big

838
01:10:31,523 --> 01:10:36,243
problem and people say hey look it's number one it's like when that lady

839
01:10:36,243 --> 01:10:42,643
says 9-eleven I'm family guy and it's just whatever the thing is we could say

840
01:10:42,643 --> 01:10:49,203
oh like we whatever problem you could bring up you could say well it has no

841
01:10:49,203 --> 01:10:53,883
future it's gonna die off people just say well it's number one and so it's

842
01:10:53,883 --> 01:11:01,683
like a thought terminating cliche yeah to be more specific it's because what

843
01:11:01,683 --> 01:11:06,523
you said the thing about the US dollar having metric fives and well that's true

844
01:11:06,523 --> 01:11:11,842
but the thing is that the US dollar is inflationary as with any other

845
01:11:12,563 --> 01:11:19,443
whereas Bitcoin is not inflationary you know so I think that's one of the

846
01:11:19,443 --> 01:11:22,282
strongest thing but you're right you're saying that the properties also matter

847
01:11:22,282 --> 01:11:25,042
that's all I'm trying to say is the network effects matter and the

848
01:11:25,042 --> 01:11:35,602
properties matter right so it's not only network effects sure but the thing is it

849
01:11:35,602 --> 01:11:39,482
seems to me that the the network effects matter more in a sense of the

850
01:11:39,482 --> 01:11:46,523
like people can use Bitcoin like in a centralized way and they already do and

851
01:11:46,523 --> 01:11:55,042
like they will probably keep doing that you know so I don't know the thing is

852
01:11:55,042 --> 01:12:01,402
we'll have to see you know only time will tell the thing yeah of course no I

853
01:12:01,402 --> 01:12:04,362
don't think that we have a very high chance of succeeding but we do have a

854
01:12:04,362 --> 01:12:08,083
much higher chance than I think I don't think people realize to so screwed at

855
01:12:08,083 --> 01:12:12,402
BTC is actually and how much of it will just automatically come to light

856
01:12:12,402 --> 01:12:19,842
eventually and so it'll be like the Theranos example I mean it's already 612

857
01:12:19,842 --> 01:12:25,523
so hopefully if someone wants to come up and talk please request soon but it'll

858
01:12:25,523 --> 01:12:36,162
be like the Theranos example where like the the papering over the hard problems

859
01:12:36,162 --> 01:12:39,722
has only made them much worse like a lot of the stuff a lot of the problems

860
01:12:39,722 --> 01:12:45,003
basically all of the problems that BTC has now could easily be fixed if we

861
01:12:45,003 --> 01:12:55,883
could just talk about them but we cannot so we can never fix them okay we

862
01:12:55,883 --> 01:13:17,962
have sad scholar hello yes hello I think I added him hello yes hello how

863
01:13:17,962 --> 01:13:23,643
are you can you hear me I can hear you yes I wasn't sure I had too much to add

864
01:13:23,683 --> 01:13:29,083
to this particular conversation of these particular topics I do think that um you

865
01:13:29,083 --> 01:13:32,602
know I think I think a lot of us know that there's some issues with Bitcoin

866
01:13:32,602 --> 01:13:38,922
core that's going on you know I think having I remember and I think I think I

867
01:13:38,922 --> 01:13:42,602
spoke with you about this Paul like we used to talk about having like light

868
01:13:42,602 --> 01:13:47,083
Litecoin as like a playground right to experiment and do things on and and then

869
01:13:47,083 --> 01:13:51,922
maybe bring those things to Bitcoin right you know to try to have like a

870
01:13:51,922 --> 01:13:56,962
tempered expectation of how to move things forward and in a development

871
01:13:56,962 --> 01:14:02,763
fashion and I don't even see things like that happen anymore so I think more or

872
01:14:02,763 --> 01:14:07,203
less people talk about like whether or not a project succeeds or not I think is

873
01:14:07,203 --> 01:14:11,042
not almost the right way to look at it but the better way to look at it is what

874
01:14:11,042 --> 01:14:17,643
other benefits can come from having advancements in development in the space

875
01:14:17,643 --> 01:14:23,883
in general right if somebody wants to test something on a real chain with real

876
01:14:23,883 --> 01:14:29,123
liquidity right and you're not ever gonna be able to test that on on on

877
01:14:29,123 --> 01:14:33,643
bitcoins main main net but there's another chain out there that allows you

878
01:14:33,643 --> 01:14:39,362
to kind of step forward and test out these theories like that's not really a

879
01:14:39,362 --> 01:14:44,162
bad thing I think I think that's a good thing and I think having an ability to

880
01:14:44,162 --> 01:14:49,443
test things and have a test bed that you know has the ability to have some

881
01:14:49,443 --> 01:14:52,123
real loss because if you're just testing things without the it's like paying

882
01:14:52,123 --> 01:14:58,962
playing poker without without money right sure you can do it

883
01:14:57,644 --> 01:15:02,664
and maybe you might even get good but the odds of that are slim if you're gonna

884
01:15:02,664 --> 01:15:08,084
learn to play poker you got to learn to play with real money because then there's

885
01:15:08,084 --> 01:15:12,824
real chances on the table real losses on the table and you're able to actually

886
01:15:12,824 --> 01:15:18,384
learn from mistakes and grow and so that's kind of what I think I'm not sure

887
01:15:18,384 --> 01:15:21,424
if that really adds to this specific conversation I think it's a very good

888
01:15:21,424 --> 01:15:28,044
it's a very good point and it speaks to I do there's I agree and I also disagree

889
01:15:28,044 --> 01:15:33,004
slightly which I'll get to that but I think yeah there's stuff like Bitcoin

890
01:15:33,004 --> 01:15:36,304
Inquisition and Litecoin and stuff used to be like yeah and people used to just

891
01:15:36,304 --> 01:15:42,283
be able to play around and tinker with things and I think the lack of tinkering

892
01:15:42,283 --> 01:15:46,724
it actually is a result of this weird cult that we formed where everyone just

893
01:15:46,724 --> 01:15:52,824
thinks that Bitcoin is perfect Bitcoin can't be improved immaculate conception

894
01:15:52,824 --> 01:16:01,063
blah blah blah and so it's become like a hatred and fear of anything new and

895
01:16:01,063 --> 01:16:06,904
dismissal of all innovation and so all that I think all that's related that's

896
01:16:06,904 --> 01:16:10,864
also related to just overconfident stuff shared about you know what lightning can

897
01:16:10,864 --> 01:16:15,904
do and whatever people just stick to the same points year after year you know

898
01:16:15,904 --> 01:16:22,563
they're not true okay now this there's a part where I disagree and I kind of

899
01:16:22,563 --> 01:16:28,483
think more like Marcus is right to focus on like will it replace BTC because

900
01:16:28,483 --> 01:16:33,883
you're talking about poker you know rightly so but it's like in poker

901
01:16:33,883 --> 01:16:38,324
imagine there's a thing in poker where if you win the hand you also lose all of

902
01:16:38,324 --> 01:16:44,804
your money so if you lose you lose and then if you win you lose well people

903
01:16:44,804 --> 01:16:52,504
won't even bother playing the game and that is an issue with this type of

904
01:16:52,504 --> 01:16:58,663
scenario because if you say oh I've got a better version of Bitcoin Bitcoin 2.0

905
01:16:58,663 --> 01:17:02,144
then you put it out there and then everyone realizes that oh it is better

906
01:17:02,144 --> 01:17:07,504
but if it's very easy for BTC to just then copy it so then you're in the

907
01:17:07,504 --> 01:17:12,024
situation where if you lose you lose your idea actually sucks and it's

908
01:17:12,024 --> 01:17:17,884
terrible then you lose but if you win you also lose so you kind of have to do

909
01:17:17,884 --> 01:17:22,884
you really do need to frame the whole thing in terms of can this actually

910
01:17:22,884 --> 01:17:33,084
become number one because that's the only way anyone will well in my view is

911
01:17:33,084 --> 01:17:36,604
that there will be only one cryptocurrency so it's like to me that

912
01:17:36,604 --> 01:17:43,343
either I'll be zero or they'll be very high this is the way to be one winner

913
01:17:43,343 --> 01:17:48,584
and a lot of losers so I kind of think like yeah you're either it'll just end

914
01:17:48,584 --> 01:17:53,903
up being worth zero if it's no good and if it's and if it wins it will be worth

915
01:17:53,903 --> 01:17:58,703
a ton but in order for it to win BTC has to lose so that is why I think you might

916
01:17:58,703 --> 01:18:05,164
want there is some it's almost like if you can't replace BTC you have no

917
01:18:05,164 --> 01:18:11,104
property right into the the idea you know like you haven't I'm not talking

918
01:18:11,104 --> 01:18:14,024
about like you like a patent or anything I'm just saying like it doesn't matter

919
01:18:14,024 --> 01:18:20,584
if the idea is good because even if it's good you'll lose and so you kind of only

920
01:18:20,584 --> 01:18:26,464
want to talk about will it will it win and that's kind of why I do focus on the

921
01:18:26,464 --> 01:18:33,423
cultural issues in BTC which I think are just gonna kill BTC one guy has been

922
01:18:33,423 --> 01:18:37,283
trying iron or whatever and I tried to keep trying to bring him up but it sort

923
01:18:37,283 --> 01:18:44,724
of doesn't work but I'm gonna try again but so yeah I think that you kind of

924
01:18:44,724 --> 01:18:50,884
have no choice but to frame it as I think it worked this time you kind of

925
01:18:50,884 --> 01:18:56,444
have no choice but to frame it as a rival risk competition

926
01:18:58,283 --> 01:19:01,483
because otherwise you can't do the experiment it's exactly what you were

927
01:19:01,483 --> 01:19:05,104
saying you were saying you need to do a real poker chips yeah I mean and I think

928
01:19:05,104 --> 01:19:07,823
the competition is a good thing regardless right I mean I think

929
01:19:07,823 --> 01:19:13,663
sometimes you need competition otherwise you know you get lazy and hubris starts

930
01:19:13,663 --> 01:19:18,304
to set up right and but it's not a real competition unless the winner can win

931
01:19:18,304 --> 01:19:22,584
and the loser loses so I think that's that's kind of related okay we got iron

932
01:19:22,584 --> 01:19:26,584
is now up here hello

933
01:19:27,564 --> 01:19:32,603
hey Paul how you doing man I'm doing great

934
01:19:32,603 --> 01:19:37,883
out of me hey I talked to a couple of guys they mentioned that you were okay

935
01:19:37,883 --> 01:19:46,443
with you I guess posting the the new Twitter channel since I know we had the

936
01:19:46,443 --> 01:19:51,284
with the communities kind of going away the X did away with it we created a new

937
01:19:51,284 --> 01:19:55,003
blue check verified Twitter Twitter channel for the Solana

938
01:19:55,024 --> 01:20:01,383
eCash version of the project just want to kind of highlight that I'll tweet it

939
01:20:01,383 --> 01:20:05,144
out but it was love if you wouldn't mind sharing it at some point and if you had

940
01:20:05,144 --> 01:20:07,543
any updates and I know some of the guys just want me to ask you kind of what

941
01:20:07,543 --> 01:20:12,383
your thoughts were for preliminary ideas you had if you're open to discussing it

942
01:20:12,383 --> 01:20:16,904
it's the same idea and I did make like a tiny little spreadsheets very very tiny

943
01:20:16,904 --> 01:20:22,864
but I shared it with a few people so I'll share with you also and if we can

944
01:20:22,864 --> 01:20:27,723
post it I thought it's a very simple idea where it's just like you know the

945
01:20:27,723 --> 01:20:32,524
creator fees are just that's just like money being paid to me so I'll just

946
01:20:32,524 --> 01:20:39,284
interpret that as people purchasing the real eCash and then the challenge is

947
01:20:39,284 --> 01:20:44,684
logistically getting it back but I that's what I posted about so I think

948
01:20:44,684 --> 01:20:49,883
it'll be fun for everyone and it'd be interesting hopefully yeah not pretty

949
01:20:50,103 --> 01:20:55,223
it's definitely support what you're doing I mean honestly it feels like you

950
01:20:55,223 --> 01:21:01,223
know second chance Bitcoin you're not only are you improving the chain that's

951
01:21:01,223 --> 01:21:05,603
dying in a number of ways but for the average you know retail person who might

952
01:21:05,603 --> 01:21:09,423
have missed it in 2011 literally like getting in a hot tub time machine and

953
01:21:09,423 --> 01:21:14,144
going back and having an opportunity to buy a Bitcoin at $30 with coins so super

954
01:21:14,144 --> 01:21:23,443
fun project be a part of appreciate you well hey thank thank you I just want to

955
01:21:23,443 --> 01:21:27,603
say to to a lot of people that are saying like you can't do this year you

956
01:21:27,603 --> 01:21:32,644
shouldn't do this I mean if we're not free market capitalists and

957
01:21:32,644 --> 01:21:37,483
libertarians working with open source protocols like then what else are we

958
01:21:37,483 --> 01:21:43,124
like people people can do pretty much whatever they want and if it fails it

959
01:21:43,124 --> 01:21:49,144
fails if it doesn't it doesn't like to say you can't you like you can't do

960
01:21:49,144 --> 01:21:53,263
this you can't do something with your own money I just I really just reject

961
01:21:53,263 --> 01:22:00,603
that framing in its totality well yeah I agree and I would also point out that

962
01:22:00,603 --> 01:22:04,263
you know people said this before when Bitcoin was first created people said

963
01:22:04,263 --> 01:22:09,663
oh you know they can't just do that they can't just create so that's funny that

964
01:22:09,684 --> 01:22:16,404
we Bitcoiners are rebels but I think what some of these people mean if we

965
01:22:16,404 --> 01:22:21,043
could play devil's advocate for them you know should we even bother I don't know

966
01:22:21,043 --> 01:22:25,644
but it's like these people have an argument that goes something like this

967
01:22:25,644 --> 01:22:30,163
and they say well hey Bitcoin is the final solution you know Bitcoin is the

968
01:22:30,163 --> 01:22:34,923
one answer and it's the perfect thing and everything else is a distraction so

969
01:22:34,923 --> 01:22:39,983
Bitcoin is perfect and everything else is different from perfect aka worse and

970
01:22:39,983 --> 01:22:46,103
so they think every anyone who talks about anything other than you know

971
01:22:46,103 --> 01:22:49,323
shilling Bitcoin and anyone doesn't involve anything else they're just

972
01:22:49,323 --> 01:22:55,943
distracting and delaying you know the revolution the great BTC revolution and

973
01:22:55,943 --> 01:22:58,543
it would never even occur to these people that they are the ones who are

974
01:22:58,543 --> 01:23:03,383
delaying the BTC revolution by you know disabling the culture of truth and

975
01:23:03,383 --> 01:23:08,964
making it possible to talk about fix bitcoins problems so they just basically

976
01:23:08,964 --> 01:23:13,404
have this claim to certitude they just they're absolutely certain that they are

977
01:23:13,404 --> 01:23:20,064
right and they think okay Bitcoin is the way to go they're absolutely certain of

978
01:23:20,064 --> 01:23:24,203
that and if you're absolutely certain of anything you know that's how you're

979
01:23:24,203 --> 01:23:26,684
gonna react you're gonna say well no one should do anything else you know we

980
01:23:26,684 --> 01:23:30,164
could find plenty of fundamentalist Islam people who think you know they

981
01:23:30,383 --> 01:23:35,924
also found certainty and you could find that in every you know you can go down

982
01:23:35,924 --> 01:23:40,263
the line and there's all kinds of organizations political organizations

983
01:23:40,263 --> 01:23:45,544
religious cults etc so people you know whenever anyone is certain that they

984
01:23:45,544 --> 01:23:49,984
found the truth that's usually a clue that you should run away and they have

985
01:23:49,984 --> 01:23:53,664
not found the truth and I think that's the case here so they just the argument

986
01:23:53,664 --> 01:23:59,224
is something like we know that Bitcoin BTC is the best we know that it's gonna

987
01:23:59,284 --> 01:24:03,203
fix everything so who are all these people who are saying that that's not

988
01:24:03,203 --> 01:24:09,563
true oh they must be it must be liars or talking to them is a waste of time and

989
01:24:09,563 --> 01:24:13,683
yeah the irony is of course a lot of people saying this you know like I joined

990
01:24:13,683 --> 01:24:16,563
the Bitcoin community a long long long time ago I was like presenting at

991
01:24:16,563 --> 01:24:21,443
scaling one and and scaling two and three and I was in the program committee

992
01:24:21,443 --> 01:24:25,484
for not saying that that matters but this this idea that people are just

993
01:24:25,484 --> 01:24:28,164
absolutely certain they believe that absolutely certain to have found the

994
01:24:28,164 --> 01:24:36,263
truth you know that's that's what gets you in the end they should look into you

995
01:24:36,263 --> 01:24:40,743
know why people disagree with them I think

996
01:24:44,743 --> 01:24:49,164
yeah no that's I think that's I think that's a real good point to again that

997
01:24:49,164 --> 01:24:58,464
plays into the the hubris I would think right oh yeah exactly okay only five

998
01:24:58,464 --> 01:25:06,604
minutes left so jump up quick Paul I think you should also repeat the

999
01:25:06,604 --> 01:25:10,524
first talking points about the mining pool and the bounty because when you

1000
01:25:10,524 --> 01:25:15,683
were saying that it was maybe only 10-15 people listening and now there's more of

1001
01:25:15,683 --> 01:25:22,044
them we're doing a bug bounty you can scroll back to my tweets to find the

1002
01:25:22,044 --> 01:25:26,844
link or you can go to to Drivechain that info find the articles section where

1003
01:25:26,844 --> 01:25:32,524
it is a blog post and it's a hundred thousand dollars and I'm going to

1004
01:25:32,524 --> 01:25:37,164
massively increase it if there's lots of bugs being found but hundred thousand

1005
01:25:37,164 --> 01:25:45,323
and basically it's five rounds of twenty thousand per round and you find bugs and

1006
01:25:45,323 --> 01:25:51,284
you send them in and then every every two weeks whoever is found the most bugs

1007
01:25:51,284 --> 01:25:56,164
especially bugs in certain software and especially severe bugs and especially

1008
01:25:56,164 --> 01:26:00,164
bugs that other people didn't find so these are the this is all explained in

1009
01:26:00,164 --> 01:26:05,404
the post but yeah if you find those types of bugs you can get first place

1010
01:26:05,404 --> 01:26:10,044
and if you get in first place and no one else enters then you win twenty

1011
01:26:10,044 --> 01:26:13,604
thousand dollars otherwise you win some other amount of money which I have a

1012
01:26:13,604 --> 01:26:24,404
chart so then there is prizes for first second and third place and if there are

1013
01:26:24,404 --> 01:26:29,084
lots of bugs are found then maybe I'll expand it and I'll make it you know

1014
01:26:29,084 --> 01:26:34,123
first through fifth place or add more money or something and so that's the bug

1015
01:26:34,123 --> 01:26:39,644
bounty contest and then also we have this new thing simple pool and it is is

1016
01:26:39,644 --> 01:26:42,844
brand new and not everything is implemented yet but it's just the

1017
01:26:42,844 --> 01:26:47,604
starting point because I've always wanted there to be an open source pool I

1018
01:26:47,604 --> 01:26:52,243
think we should have this open source pool software that so we all know

1019
01:26:52,243 --> 01:26:58,084
exactly what's going on in the pool and we should optimize it so that the pools

1020
01:26:58,084 --> 01:27:03,203
themselves want to use it and it's like some you know really good open source

1021
01:27:03,203 --> 01:27:09,924
library that's just the best in the in the the other best available we should

1022
01:27:09,924 --> 01:27:13,763
also have this pool hopper software so that miners don't have to think as much

1023
01:27:13,763 --> 01:27:17,524
about you know they just point their hash at one thing and it will decide for

1024
01:27:17,524 --> 01:27:22,044
them if they want you know which pool to go to so they get the most money you

1025
01:27:22,044 --> 01:27:29,284
know PPS and then there's also a way of the pool paying people out without the

1026
01:27:29,284 --> 01:27:36,924
pool custodying the funds so that that's also better so that's a that's

1027
01:27:36,924 --> 01:27:42,763
preliminary but that's also I announced it and I there's links to my writing on

1028
01:27:42,763 --> 01:27:48,964
this topic on how it should work and why and there's also link to the github and

1029
01:27:48,964 --> 01:27:54,203
it is not supposed to actually replace any of the the brands you know like

1030
01:27:54,203 --> 01:28:00,964
foundry or whatever ideally they would just use this software and if people

1031
01:28:00,964 --> 01:28:03,344
don't want to use it then they don't have to but I think that the you know we

1032
01:28:03,344 --> 01:28:10,263
want people to have I just think there should be an open source pool that just

1033
01:28:10,263 --> 01:28:16,823
is committed to aggressively revenue maximizing so so it's the opposite of

1034
01:28:16,823 --> 01:28:24,904
Luke's censorship money destroying pool in that way okay so now it's only two

1035
01:28:24,904 --> 01:28:37,303
minutes left so if you're really really fast you can hop up I see that but if

1036
01:28:37,303 --> 01:28:43,863
not here I would love to have him on to share some opinions well he can come up

1037
01:28:43,863 --> 01:28:52,344
but there's not that much time so he can hop up but I I selected a tweet of his

1038
01:28:52,344 --> 01:28:59,303
for my lightning tweet this morning about I had other tweets but he's like

1039
01:28:59,303 --> 01:29:03,863
yeah the people who are in the know

1040
01:29:03,904 --> 01:29:07,943
the you know like the people who are very very knowledgeable about lightning

1041
01:29:07,943 --> 01:29:12,984
they you know they just don't think that the non custodial lightning will

1042
01:29:12,984 --> 01:29:20,703
actually work so there's publicly available information about that I think

1043
01:29:20,703 --> 01:29:26,943
we'll have to wait until next week for more questions but this has been great

1044
01:29:26,943 --> 01:29:30,984
even though we only had very few people this time but we had pretty good

1045
01:29:30,984 --> 01:29:38,863
conversation nonetheless or maybe because of that I don't know but now it's

1046
01:29:38,863 --> 01:29:45,063
630 so I have to go but this has been really great so see everyone next week

1047
01:29:45,063 --> 01:29:48,943
I'm thinking about changing the format maybe I'll go to Clubhouse or something

1048
01:29:48,943 --> 01:29:53,703
else I don't know but I'll let everyone know I'll post the announcement so

1049
01:29:53,703 --> 01:29:58,303
thanks very much and thanks to everyone who asked questions and made comments so

1050
01:29:58,303 --> 01:30:01,784
thanks see you guys later