Okay, I hope you all enjoyed that music from Mario 64, but I only have a shorter amount of time today, but I made a list of cool stuff to talk about, well, sort of. So I'm just going to hit this list and then if anyone wants to talk, they can come up. So come up if you want. First, we announced this bug bounty. It's going to be $100,000 total over the whole summer, and I will massively increase it if there's lots and lots of bugs being found, because the purpose is to basically try to find them all, at least in the base package of software. So yeah, I think some people have asked like, oh, do I just submit the bug as soon as I find it? I think that's probably a good idea. And ideally for you is you find a bug that no one else has found. And again, if I find many bugs, we will massively increase the reward. So we'll see how we do with just what we're paying out now. And for details of that, go to, well, I'll just scroll back in my tweets until I link to it. Then we have this thing, SimplePool. Now this is only just started, okay? This is brand new. This is wet concrete, okay? But this is an open source pool, because the question is, why isn't the pool software open source? I mean, we don't want, we want it to be this open source library that anyone use, not some creepy private thing. I think that's a no-brainer. Now someone, of course, there's always one or two snarky people replying. And they said, oh yeah, we'll give you a free Bitaxe and you can increase the hash rate of the pool. The pool software is not supposed to be an actual replacement for Foundry and whatever. I explained that in the post, but people didn't understand it. So the pools, the Foundry and whatever, they're a brand. And they extract a small little fee from being reputable. And that's how they make their money. And this doesn't change that at all. I'm just trying to make it so that the actual software that they use to select transactions to put in blocks is something that we all know about. And I think actually we can solve a bunch of unrelated problems too, but we can, I think we saw like Relay and some other things, because Relay right now is done in a kind of communist way, where it's kind of just Relay for free out of the goodness of your heart. And that's actually not that great. And that has led to all kinds of confusion, such as that led to the difference between the standardness rules and the validity rules, which has been a huge distraction, a waste of everyone's time. This is kind of like the opposite of what Luke is trying to do with BIP-110 in the sense that we'll just aggressively revenue maximize. And so we will not be judgmentally stopping people from making money, which is sort of what they're doing. And we can talk about BIP-110 if you want, but okay. And one thing I wanted to mention is should we change the format and maybe next week we'll do Clubhouse? I don't know. But if you have a thought, then come up on stage and let me know. Some people wanted to ask about the Solana thing. I've shared already the plan, like about how people can have fun with the Solana token, redeem it for real eCash. And I shared it with like five, maybe four or five people, maybe five. And if they haven't told you, then they have permission to repost my, I made like a tiny spreadsheet. It's very small and they can just post it if they want. So it's a pretty simple plan and I think it kind of works for everyone, neutralizes the chaos of this and harnesses it for a fun way because, well, you'll see when you read it. Okay. I wanted to make a note about the eCash brand, which is that we intend to put out valuable true information, useful information, all of which 100% true. We intend to put that on eCash.com, but to some extent, well, we need a lot of stupid people to bet against. So we don't necessarily want it to be too obvious how good of an idea that we're doing. So we will be trying and we will be trying to defend the brand and explain the brand. I think people are still talking a little bit too much about the whole take Satoshi's coins, but I think we want it to be misunderstood slightly to some tiny extent. Okay. And Lightning, yeah, today, we, you know, again, Lightning has come up. I consider Lightning to be a totally settled issue. Every time I talk to someone in the real world, they seem to agree with me. Maybe, you know, maybe I'm more intimidating than I expect in the real world. People are afraid to disagree with me to my face. But then on Twitter, you have, you know, what looked like the dumbest people in the world. And then they say like, silly things like, oh, does it even matter if Lightning scales or does it matter if it's custodial? The answer is yes, because it's not Lightning. And then other people are confused about like if one leg of the trade, like if you make a Lightning transaction and something else does the heavy lifting, some custodial service does the heavy lifting for that. Does that still count as a Lightning transaction? And the answer is no, because it was all done. Because it was, without the custodial thing, it would not have been possible. So it would have failed if it, so that thing is the linchpin that holds it all together. But a lot of people don't even really, I don't know what to deal, how to deal with these people because a lot of the Lightning experts, you know, they agree with me and they've already moved on to the next thing. So I don't know. I did want to tell one story about, okay, this is a story that, you know, if you're into Lightning and because we have to talk about the people who say, oh, I used Lightning yesterday and I saw it work. And I have a little story that I sometimes tell about, this is about Theranos, the fake blood company that ended up being a huge scam and a disaster and something that everyone regretted associating with. Theranos, look it up. This young man, Tyler Shultz, he was working there. He's the grandson of George Shultz, who's a famous politician, among other things, on the board of Theranos. And the grandfather helped him get the internship. He knew that when people came in to get their blood tested with Theranos, they would come in, they would prick their finger to get the blood drawn and they would put it in the Theranos machine and then they would take them on a tour. They would take these people, you know, the patients in theory, they would take them on a tour of the lab and then while they were on the tour of the lab, out of the room, people would come in, open up the Theranos device, take out the blood capsule, whisk it away into a different room, dilute the blood and then run it on the traditional Siemens technology that had nothing to do with Theranos at all. And then they would print out the results and they would make it appear as though this was from, this is exactly how lightning basically is. But this would be very frustrating for Tyler when he would try to blow the whistle on this whole operation being fake, is people, such as his grandfather, would say, no, I've seen the machine work, they tested my blood with it, I saw it with my own two eyes. What they saw was a hoax, everything they saw was fake. Now lightning is a little bit more real than this, but not very much so, not significantly so, because ultimately at the end of the day, it relies on a lot of heavy lifting done by stuff that has nothing to do with lightning and if this stuff went away, the lightning user experience would be unbearably bad and it certainly won't work at scale, which was the whole point in the first place. So I just had to react to this whole, because it's a very, very common thing. People think, oh, I used it myself and it's the perfect overlay. I also made the metaphor, I was talking to Mr. Hoddle, I use the metaphor of a magician. If anyone wants to just interrupt by coming up and asking about anything, but yeah, I got like one or two notes and a metaphor of a magician, it's like, oh, I saw the magician saw the lady in half and I saw it with my own two eyes and it's like, well, that's not, it doesn't mean anything, you know, it's like you, part of the fun of seeing a magician is that, you know, the magic is fake, but you're still kind of thinking like, how did they do that? And that's the opposite of how it is with lightning, where they lie to you and they just say they misrepresent something as actually being due to HTLC technology. And that's not true at all, but now we all have to listen to it. So that's on my list or whatever. So one other thing, in addition to, should we change up the format? Second concept is who, who do we think are like top hater is, who is a top hater that we could actually get to come in? You know, someone who's actually worth talking to. We have one or two haters who are just like, you know, anonymous bot accounts have 13 followers and they're just like fake people, obviously. But who, who could we actually get, you know, maybe Pleditor or something. I don't know if he speaks on camera or on whatever. But the point is, who could we actually get and should we then collectively like request them to come next week or something like that? Or should we, I was thinking also we could train like an AI bot. Someone could train and operate an AI bot and they could say, answer how Pleditor would answer. We can have Vlad or whoever, just pretend to be the person. This is a funny idea I had. Again, if you want to come up, just request. Otherwise I'll keep going down my list of stuff. We have a lot of stuff to announce. I'm not going to announce it all here. I'm just saying in general, lots of stuff has been happening. Lots of people have joined, lots of people are very interested in what we're doing. The round, we're going to close the round. It has basically sold out and so it'll have to be closed and then the price will have to be increased for the final round. So there's been like an overwhelming number of messages and people asking me to, you would think it would like die down a lot, which it has, because there are actually so many people had messaged me last month that I missed a bunch of messages and I kind of told them, well, we'll just wait until I'm back in the news and then I'll message you back. But really a lot of stuff is happening and we have a lot of just content to push out and we have a lot of actual substance to push out. So I have another note here about the Bitcoin SV people, because for some reason we've got a lot of Bitcoin SV people who are very welcome, of course, and we have many fans, actually, we have a lot of people who are supporters and even investors who are from BSV world, but we also have some haters. And I just wanted to point out that the BSV people, like the Drivechain is actually what the BSVers think that BSV is. And so I think when the BSVers finally figure that out, they will actually become big fans, but I don't know how long that will take. I hope it doesn't take that long, because the BSV philosophy is kind of like you can use unlimited data on the chain and downloading is optional and then miners pick up the tab. And no matter how expensive it is, and then we can all free ride on the miners using SPV. Now that's very similar to Drivechain, Drivechain says you can use more data whenever you want and you can download it optionally in the form of choosing which full nodes, if any, you download. And then the node runners, the L2 node runners, they pick up the tab. But not if it's too expensive. And we can all free ride on the nodes using SPV. So it's very, very similar. But the problem is just, you know, what if something's too expensive? And in the BSV world, if the nodes become too expensive, the whole network just dies off. Or they do mental gymnastics to try and say like that, there's nothing bad about that or it is bad, but it's not too bad or whatever. And then the Drivechain world is perfectly, perfectly fine. It's totally immune, 100% immune to having L2s that have infinite cost because those die off, but the rest of them survive. So the whole Bitcoin SV mistake is this idea that there's nothing bad about increasing the block size at all, which is false. And the Drivechain idea just says, well, if you increase the block size, some good things will happen, some bad things will happen, and you can each make a trade off and they can all just compete. So I think that's what the Bitcoin SV people actually want. If they knew what they wanted, that's what they would want. So yeah, that's just like some of my list of things. I actually have more on my list, but I think we should talk about... whatever people want to talk about and it's 515 I don't have that much time today it is a shame that well yeah usually these these really get going very well and we start off in like the first few minutes are are slow and then it and then it really picks up and then by the end we can't we can't escape on time so but yeah I just thought I would give a monologue boring monologue here we have someone we have a mr. Marcus mm-something one and then when you prove people it takes like 20 seconds for them to pop up but I have a yes hello can you hear me well I can hear you yes okay so first of all Drivechains are really nice you know all that stuff and yes you have been right and almost everything which is really sad to say as a Bitcoin maximalist myself and so I have a few points to say here so first of all you you talk a lot of bad stuff about lighting which I kind of agree I just don't think you're like lighting can be useful for some stuff you know I think it can be used for like pre-confirmations you know and instant confirmation stuff and I'm also cross chain settlement so I think your rhetoric of like Oh lightning is completely useless is not a good rhetoric you know that's one thing do you agree with that well okay first of all thank you for saying the Drivechains are great and that I'm often right about everything so and then also you thanks for saying that you mostly agree you often agree with what I'm saying but lightning okay I agree that sometimes like okay what I'm trying to achieve with lightning is to me whether or not something has become a cult is much more important it's like it practically trumps epistemology you know what I mean because once the cult takes over then everything is a lie and that's kind of where we are with lightning unfortunately so at this point it's like even even when I had so years ago like I'm talking like 2020 or 2021 I had like a tamer critique of lightning and people said the same thing they said you can't criticize lightning at all no one will want no one wants to hear that no one wants no one will pay attention to you you won't get like invited back or whatever so people have been saying that for a while maybe unreasonably lightning does do instant confirmation but that's I'm not actually sure that it's lightning that does that so to me even I draw a box around payment channels because lightning because there's a big difference between to me there's a big difference and to most people there's no difference at all because they just think custodial lightning or whatever but there's the bi-directional payment channels where each person has like funded the channel and then they adjust and then they settle up and this is only two people there's actually kind of a big difference between that that already existed before the lightning network was a thing and then the lightning network was like we can have HTLC's and we can use the six degrees of separation Kevin Bacon concept or whatever erdos number or whatever it is to make the all the payment channels work together in this network and it's the idea of the network that I just think is not true because yeah it tends to centralize which is fine to be honest like we have to have companies do stuff you know that's fine we have to build trust in some places it's fine and we need isn't that really not that fine I mean I agree with you I'm fully in favor of companies and brands and all this stuff I just think that lightning is represented as the cypherpunk technology where it's like code is law and yeah but today's not understand most people are like a story of lightning that that's a lie yeah I understand and so what I mean like if I so people do primal to primals app on Nostr they both use primal custodial lightning there's no lightning transaction there's no and this is a little lightning icon now what about if I send lightning to you and without a custodial person along the way we would not have had enough liquidity but you and me are running we have some we have one channel somewhere is used that's a real lightning channel but the but the route would not have completed do you consider that without without going through a custodial lightning hop does that count as lightning to you well I don't think I really care because the the main point I think is is useful is instant confirmations right this is a really good payment experience so as long as we can get some type of that and I know you don't need lighting itself you can do that otherwise like people do those like pre confirmations with stakers and other chains like as long as we can get some form of that I'm fine but but also the thing is that even lighting can be better done on a Drivechain you know because there's a bunch of like opcodes that people want and whatever and also just you know having more space so that you can because there's a in the paper there's the thing where you have to have like a hundred times more block space so everyone could import you know so like even Drivechain could help lightning you know so that's the thing which is one of the reasons why I don't understand why lightning people don't go rooting for a Drivechain I can't understand that because it is a cult and it has nothing to do with the technology or truth it unfortunately the termites have spread and they've eaten all the wood and now I think it's like unfixable that's the problem so that's part of it is as like a test to see who in lightning world still has a brain the answer is depressingly few people and so you're right that lightning would work better on Drivechain for a lot of reasons more block space and then you know there's even I think any prep out is mentioned also in the lightning whitepaper without the current is the way that lightning networks originally designed in the way is mostly used when it's used at all which is not even that often because custodial lightning is really what's used but the design is that you have to track you have to keep this giant list this growing list of of potentially like you have to check for someone trying to screw you over and then pull a trigger on this if you see them so you have to have this list or just eats up more and more RAM until you refresh the channel and so that get that all that could be fixed and but you know it's kind of all moot point because Barack a creator of our he was like you know he's like very very smart he's very very skilled and he's very good with Bitcoin Bitcoin script and he's very good with lightning and when he invented arc he was like well you know I was trying to make lightning work and it doesn't work so but even this doesn't matter like I've compiled tons and tons of quotes that people have said on stage these are from like elite lightning devs and like none of them are out of context or anything where they say it doesn't basically it's not going to work out so but but the problem is that everyone the problem is not this has nothing to do with technology is become a it has become a you know it's you can't separate lightning from the propaganda and no one wants to hear any bad news about BTC even if that is necessary for the good news to come out like even if it's actually good news in disguise the whole lightning thing has become basically a a giant dunce cap that is discrediting BTC and so that's that's the thing is you can only have any credibility or any kind of virtue or integrity if you just refuse to put up with it at this point I think okay so look what parts of lightning do you think can be salvaged now because I think state channels can be a good idea now well it's not that I think that again it's not that I think that lightning like I can imagine in 10 years people using HTLC's and as you mentioned it's kind of nice when you know you can go cross-chain and you can like so that's kind of cool yeah the experience I want is like you can have a wallet which is let's say a blue wallet green wallet kind of thing and you can pay an invoice and I don't care where what Drivechain you're at you can be in Thunder you can be in I don't know zSide you can be anywhere and I can pay an invoice from anywhere to anywhere you know that's the kind of the kind of future I want and I think something like lightning can enable it maybe not well probably not the light you have today but something that involves a writing network a routing network and state channels you know okay I think you know honestly though this is my real thought is well okay my real thought is like well when she once you get because you said that you like instant confirmations and you like cross-chain and my thought is once we get instant confirmation it's a transaction settlement won't you just drop lightning at that point because why why deal with all this other stuff that's not real about the channels and the liquidity and being online to to receive and signing what kind of pre confirmations are you thinking about well I have a bunch of ideas I was actually going to so the thing is now I've been I'm losing a lot you know I don't have as much free time as I used to have so now it's a shame because I would like normally I would be like like to investigate but now I have like lots of people talking to me and asking me for things but I was thinking about putting I have compiled a document of instant settlement like instant finality ideas and I was working on a few days ago and it's somewhere on this computer actually but I was thinking about publishing it all and then putting some kind of contest to see if people have any new ideas and normally I would like just try to like look into it myself but I'm actually just very low on time at the moment but I think this is this would help okay so like people have proposed several different types of ideas you as you probably know so one is like it just from a technical point of view it's very easy to prove guilt because the the the only reason that zero conf is not secure is because you could sign to transactions right I hope everyone is following this this part is not that hard to hopefully so like if you could only sign once with your private key then everything would be fine and there would be no need for okay so what does that mean well what it means is if you in order to exploit zero conf and defraud someone you have to sign the transaction then you the owner of the key you have to sign the second thing so one idea that a lot of people had is hey we can make it so that if anyone ever publishes both of them like if you assemble them together and say look this guy signed twice he signed twice and he didn't like add like a flag like for you know like for like replaced by fee or some legitimate way you could easily rope that off you can say well look then this proves that this person did the wrong thing and then people have suggested something you'd have bonds that like where miners can collect like you put like a $200 bond and then everything you buy that's less than $200 the merchant actually has a lot of assurance that if they reference this bond somehow in the transaction then now something that I always bring up and it's a long-winded speech but actually a lot of things don't need zero calm so even though it is a good experience most things don't but yeah I understand I agree that the user experience is going to kill people because people love you know attention is very scarce and people don't want to be like looking at the wallet to see how did it confirm so it is a very important thing but of course there's a lot of stuff that you can buy like if you buy something on Amazon you pot you buy you pay and if the transaction doesn't go through they just they can just interpret that as you canceling and then they just don't ship it to you so that's the whole category of things where it doesn't actually matter the speed like they can just say we got it they can see it in the men pool and say we have zero confim okay you so as long as you're not in a situation where blocks are full zero conf is actually really really really close to being secure already in a wide number of use cases I've also mentioned other situations like you buy something in person you buy coffee in person your face is on the video camera and it's just like kind of a small amount of money so then they can you know just refer to the police say this guy didn't pay he maliciously double-spent us and you know that's shoplifting or whatever I've also said that the you could just use the chain a different way so like you have bit refill where people spend their BTC on the gift card maybe that takes like one hour to get six confirmations but now once you have the gift card now you're back to the instant thing so you just reload every month so I have a whole little document full of ideas I did want to maybe publish a like at some kind of challenge where people could win a prize if they have any better ideas or if they find any ideas because a lot of ideas are found and then even I was like I remember a few different ideas like they had different names and I tried to go back and find some of them but because of dead internet theory like there's a few that I know are out there that I like couldn't find so I don't know where they are but they were interesting back in the day yeah and what about the the cross-chain part because okay I'm pretty sure you were right that we can solve instant confirmations in other ways but what about the the cross-chain part we have that we call a coin shift and it's yeah I've seen coin shift it's kind of an interesting I'm not saying that this is the magic bullet that will fix everything I mean you were saying before we need companies and we need brands and we need whatever so I actually think the exchanges make a lot of money on this on one weird development is that now these days the exchanges and make so so much money but now if you just download like a normal app many of the apps today like the wallet apps they have like swaps and stuff built in and to the extent that like you know the exchange isn't sort of like widely available it's kind of snuck up on everybody snuck up on me I was like wow every every little phone wall it is like an exchange now and I don't remember handing over my personal information like my driver's license to any of these but I think but I think most of these are like on-chain swaps so it has been the same train there are bridges you know but uh we have to settle on some design I mean it can be purely market-provided which is fine but but I would prefer if you had some like atomic swap kind of thing you know yeah of course um like I think that yeah I don't think the idea behind coin shift is not even to be like this big thing at scale the coin shift is just supposed to be like as a last resort it will always be there so why not improve on it by you know operating an exchange business or something so it's kind of a little bit like it's kind of like a fallback type of an idea but it's cool idea anyways we should try it out and it's a technically the way it works is it just says when you run this sidechain it actually you have to run you have to run as dependencies like all these other L1 nodes and then they like just like combines them all so it's just aware of every transaction yeah that's a which is kind of a weird idea because like those chains like Litecoin and monero they are always hard-forking so like that yeah it will not work if they hard fork it will just it will have to either you either have to hard fork coin shift or it will just stop working with that and you'd have to sort of coin shift like two in like a nearby slot and it would just but yeah they shouldn't hard fork and that's a mistake but they do yeah but that's the thing they always do I think monero has this like six month or something hard fork policy yeah I mean they should have phased that out by now I think but they are doing something very ambitious recently this whole chain proof thing which is like much more ambitious than the ring signature so that is so I suppose that would make it warranted but yeah the hard fork is it makes the whole thing custodial kind of because you need to know where to get the new software yeah that's why I'm not sure coin shift works and because of this because like they will hard fork you know their code yeah but the hard fork is kind of cheating to say it doesn't work because if you have imagine like you you scheme up some lightning thing lightning and monero swap that would still count as having you would still have to like update the you know the stack to deal with the new hard forked monero yeah but the difference is that in in coin shift what in practice is happening is that the coin shift L2 is the is deciding or the consensus of this this L2 is deciding what is the real monero or what is the real Litecoin whereas with when I have this lightning stuff you can still use the the old one if you want to know before I think that's probably true I suppose because it's just we'll be checking if the so yeah I think maybe you might be right about that um I you know I do think again that like I don't think that's you know enough to save that because the problem with light lightning is not you know the problem with the lightning I'm saying that atomic swaps in general lightning is just a part of this yeah well um we did program something once this was just like a little toy experiment but yeah people have done this this type of thing like we did like for fast withdrawals from Drivechain because the withdrawals are slow but it's expected that people would just not use the BIP300 part to withdrawal they could just swap with someone and pay a small fee and and you know there's like a spectrum of this is not really answering your question at all but there's like a spectrum of like you know there's used to be like there used to be like Bitcoin OTC like over IRC and people would just send like you know they were just like sending from instructions on where to send US dollars people would send the US dollars and then they'd send the BTC and there was no there was no HTLC and there was no nothing and that's how a lot of stuff work so there's a lot of like sites where they just stand it's relies on the brand of the thing yeah the problem is that this you either have to trust the brand or you are introducing more friction you know so like the thing about both market swaps and atomic swaps is that they are well then there's no friction you know just press a button and then yeah so as I said that can indeed be done by by market swaps we have like a side shift and another right providers today like they work I just don't like that I don't like having to need them you know yeah I think that's that's very admirable I agree I mean a moment ago you said that it didn't bother you as much that a lot of lightning is custodial or whatever so not exactly what I said I mean it does bother me that lightning is custodial the part that doesn't bother me is some centralization and like LSPs and because like let's say Phoenix you know the Phoenix wallet in mobile is a non custodial wallets and you also have a specific LSP that you connect to and that's fine you know because the thing with the thing with having a brand is like I'm fine with having a brand that I need to trust in some manner you know like liking kind of trust what I don't like is having to trust them with my funds you know I need to know they're like if they fail you if they explode for any reason I can eventually take my funds back you know and lightning does provide that there are other models like arc that also provide this kind of thing with more centralization you know because everyone's on the same arcs and it can be efficient like I'm fine with these kinds of models you know yeah but I think actually the lightning style is worse because then the atomic swap style because when you atomic swap it's like it's like a very small ephemeral just short-lived trust it's like you you say I want to swap $500 of this coin for $500 of some other coin like coin or whatever and other than that your money is not with the other than that during this transaction your money is not with them but as if instead the idea is that everyone pays everyone on arc then a lot of your money is in the arc machine for example or in the LSP and that's not the good situation where it's kind of stored up I think I mean as long as you can enforce your unilateral exit or some kind of this you know you can't do though if it yeah you can't because there's no black space yeah yeah I understand that by you exactly they don't even like know it when they bring that up they don't really have any idea what they're talking about yeah I'm getting myself to them not to you of course but like you know it's like every year they they use the same lines yeah but that's the thing even though it's with Drivechains we can probably do better things that look like arc but are just better you know because arc kind of reminds me of a it's not roll-up but like those things that look like roll-ups you know they call it like validium and validia chains that kind of stuff you know arc kind of looks like some of these with other requirements to like you can do some very interesting stuff once you want to get to Drivechains because you can just build anything on Drivechains which brings me to another thing of me thinking which is we were going to launch with a few Drivechains I have noticed we don't have like a if side Drivechains are we going to have that all at lunch we built each side in I think it was like maybe 2023 or I don't know and I kind of lost interest in it honestly but it's a commonly requested thing I mean it's funny because a lot of people say they're in for the tech or they say if you're in socks and it's a shit coin or whatever I mean I kind of really I genuinely think aetherium isn't is actually not that interesting and a lot of what people do what are most people really actually do on aetherium is they're actually sending stable coins or they're doing they do like something else that's actually better handled by like either thunder or BitAssets or something yeah so I even though we built a fully working each side I like just totally lost interest in maintaining it or having people pay more attention to it so the question is bring it back or I mean I guess the answer is yes but I really like thought it's actually uninspiring and it just leads and the one good thing about it would be that you wouldn't have this problem where it's like aetherium versus Solana verse whatever you would just have like different aetheriums of like different sizes so I don't know I'm not exactly sure about that what to say about that but I think so I don't know because I think the it seems like on paper the answer should be of course we'll make each side but really I gotta just totally honest I'm just like I feel so bored like thinking about it and it's kind of like but I think maybe you know maybe I don't know I have no idea if more people are interested in it then obviously they could I think it's a good idea to have I don't know how many people actually use it I don't know how many people actually use any any of the stuff of course I guess it's a long-winded and rambling answer so sorry about that I don't know yeah the thing with inside is like I agree that if is not really that interesting you know it has a lot of problems with like with gas and whatever but the the thing is I think it's interesting for two perspectives first of all even if it's not interesting by itself I think it's interesting as a testing ground for like more exotic Drivechain kind of experimentation because like let's say I want to to build a new Drivechain right and I want to test out the idea out in the wild like now you know but I don't I don't want to or I cannot for some reason maybe I don't have enough support or whatever of the miners I just want to try out some new design I can do it on like each side you know I can build my my Drivechain right there and because it's during complete I can just run anything there right so even though it's it's not gonna be efficient it might work as a testing ground and then later I can make it into an actual driving which enters another thing I was thinking which is governance you know because a lot of chains have this governance talk and I wonder how it will pan out in over here because like yeah we can have other Drivechains technically but then again the thing it's it's social consensus you know we need miners running it we need miners to think it's a good idea which doesn't seem to have worked out for BTC because in BTC we could technically have Drivechains miners could just like run PIP 300 and 300 on software but they didn't so like why I don't know like why would they run new Drivechains on after launch you know well yeah those are very good questions let me try to do them in order first of all about aetherium with the gas I'm glad you brought that up because basically aetherium says you can do anything you want but you have to pay this gas cost but actually with with sidechains it's kind of like you can already do whatever you want launch any sidechain you want and there's no gas cost so there's just a full node that people have to run and that's that's better in many ways because certain things the full node should just like tank for everyone like it should just have like the state and then other than like why charge anyone gas if you don't need to just charge transaction fee which is way way way better there's another point that I made this is an argument I made back in 2015 2016 a long time ago you know basically 10 years ago more than 10 years ago and you know the argument when something like this was called I called it like categorical control or like topical control which was like in the EVM you can do whatever you want but that actually might be kind of annoying because people might make weird contracts that like attack other contracts or do something where they just like crowd something else out yeah that was a sidechain privatization I've seen that one that's exactly right yes thank you for watching that yeah you can see that was way ahead of its time and even now like I don't even think there's like enough of a shared language for people even talk about it now but I thought the title was good and so I was thinking like you know the people will grow frustrated with this this this this open chain and they'll actually they'll get they're tired of it you know then to build these special-purpose chains around that'll kind of be a little bit more efficient because I have some kind of state that is related to their purpose like the name sidechain can have like the registry of names they can do stuff with that whereas the EVM chain we have to kind of like have everything of everything and so so this is a theoretical argument that I made I have no idea if it's gonna actually pan out or if it you know already has panned out maybe to some extent yeah for what I've seen I don't think that happens I haven't seen any like smart contract attacking each other haven't ever seen that kind of thing happening yeah be interesting if it just sort of never happened or if if miners wanted to build something to just filter it but now we're ending I'm gonna end up like Luke Dashjr. where we have the moral committee that filters out the bad transactions which seems like a kind of bad road to go down I mean that's the thing miners seem very passive you know because like there was an article on I think it was like Litecoin you know the the guy Litecoin I don't know his name he wrote an article basically saying that there was an optimistic bridge you know which technically miners could steal from that bridge and yet they didn't and it was operating for like years and years and they didn't ever attack it and this had like billions of dollars in of very similar Drivechain is very very similar to like and then when the people shorten it so there was this thing wormhole or something a lot of the stuff was very similar to drive to you know except that it it kind of pushed the envelope on like the parameters and then some of those guys rainbow bridge I think it was called rainbow bridge yeah but the ones that are more similar to Drivechain worked just fine which is you know sort of very validating I think and so the okay well that brings me to the second question about governance first of all I think this is a very misunderstood idea like people think like Oh Bitcoin Core is running BTC and then Paul's gonna run eCash not true and it's gonna be like then people are gonna discover how hard it is to run a project or something and that Bitcoin Core is not perfect but it's better than all that's completely false like the the L1 on eCash will be identical to Bitcoin Core both now and like in the future it won't be literally identical but it'll you know basically be identical and whatever they merge will just be merged they'll be the same the BIP300/301 enforcer which is how BIP300 301 is activated and used that should be like a completable task so ideally it would already be done now I'm sure there are some tweaks but ideally it would not even have to be changed ever again after the project launches and ideally even months before the project launches so that's a completable thing and then these L2s they're a little bit more like oh yeah sure like I'm gonna have like L2s that I like and that I'm opinionated about but the L2s are kind of like add delete whatever L2s the miners want now this is it leads directly to your point about why did you know if the miners are not in in the BTC world the miners could already add or subtract Drivechains at will individual ones ones as a set my honest explanation for why they have not is that they just they don't have any understanding of the issues at all which I think is a big problem for them because they constantly complain about they actually complain about having no money and they complain that nothing is activating and even I made a joke at in Las Vegas I was on stage and security budget day one you can find it security budget panel and I was like hey listen to Nick at from Luxor CEO of Luxor and I was like oh listen you guys you know you run a pool you could call of your pool friends and you could just activate 15 soft forks if you really wanted to and you know people kind of laughed and he kind of nothing to say to that I would be interested in exploring that now I think part of the passivity of the miners has been like bred into them or beaten into them however you want to think about it because the soft work used to not be controversial at all this is I'm gonna give you a long war story now but hopefully not too long but you know the soft work didn't used to be controversial at all and there was no controversy at all it was just it was just a code change that happened to not do anything until 51% of the miners upgraded to the new version so it meant very very very little and there are even many embarrassing instances where like stuff was not activated right or minor signal that they updated but they didn't actually update and so they well it's already 551 all right I guess we'll have to go to 630 but so they were like they would do all this stuff and but none of it was controversial at all and even when SegWit happened it wasn't the SegWit part that was controversial SegWit was just held hostage because the miners had been convinced by large blockers that the core developers were not necessarily acting in what they thought was their best interest so they decided to you know if they're like oh you're not gonna do what I want I won't do what you want and this whole thing became like and that was SegWit and then Taproot was kind of like a weird image reverse shadow echo of that and then nothing has happened since so the fact that miners are too passive that is why BTC is gonna die off so that it's not like a permanent feature of Bitcoin. Yeah, about that, so well eCash is hard fork and it has the those properties of like basically trying to steal hash rate because it's the same it has a bigger potential for for fees and also it has the same mining algorithms like it tries to kill Bitcoin right so first of all between cash kind of tried but it didn't I'm not even sure if they still use the same hashing algorithm but whatever so the thing is right now my what I expect will happen is that launch day comes the price just goes down absurdly and and then sometime later it it starts getting some some users and whatever and but it it just becomes another altcoin you know that's what I imagine will happen so like I'm at the point where I think I'm pretty sure this is a good idea you know even with the the shed stuff which is not doesn't look good I think it's a good idea and I think the price will increase you know but it will be something like would be BSH that now and at the same time even though I think the fork is a good idea I think it will not overthrow Bitcoin we maybe maybe if we got enough users it's gonna be a situation where like we have we can have maybe more more hash rate but then bitcoins is still the king which is gonna be a really strange situation if that happens at all but now I'm like I'm pessimistic but I wanted to be optimistic you know yeah well sure let me just finish the governance idea of like why would miners you know activate why would they care about specific Drivechains I think it would be a very different story after you know in a world where it's like the coin has been specifically created for this with this design in mind that there will be these scaling and layers but the layers we merge mined L2s and most of the transaction fee revenue that miners get will come to them I think they would now they have a much more direct they can they've seen it they see it with their own two eyes that all when we we get money from each of these so that I think that makes it much easier for the one one thing that's been just depressing is that you would think the pools would specialize because they they are kind of like if you imagine a world where like okay so people defer to the pool like the pool as a brand and the pool is like one person who's like full-time job is to assemble the blocks and maintain the block construction whereas the individual hashers they are diffuse and they have only this very small percentage of the hash rate so you would think like yeah like foundry would have like a whole department about like oh what should we do about quantum what should we do about whatever and they would put out now I happen to know about one historical fact that happened which is that they knew about the epic sat the ordinal sat and foundry emailed suppose this is what I was told by you know reputable sources maybe it's not it but you know I'm pretty I believed it I still believe it they were told that excuse me I was told that they emailed their members they said we will isolate the epic sat ordinal which is coming up for for you guys and then we'll sell it and give you guys the money and then apparently they got a big backlash from this like people are messaging them and because the you know ordinals was conflated ordinals and inscriptions this has become controversial and so people were emailing foundry saying why are you getting us involved with this ordinals controversy and so the foundry instead did nothing and then it was via BTC that mind the epic sat this is one single Satoshi so worth almost nothing you know fractions of a penny and but they sold that for like 13 BTC so this is a story about how it's not good enough for the pools to know what they're talking about there can't be any just it can't be huge discrepancy or a huge mistrust between the pools and their clients so now you see actually this is all lightning's fault actually because it's not lightning specifically but when you when you have a culture where everyone believes false things and all kinds of nonsense is constantly spreading and people are paranoid and mistrustful which is you know healthy to some extent but we have to fight against like massive lies which are being told in the Bitcoin community by Bitcoiners to other Bitcoiners on like an enormous scale and there's a huge fallout from this so then foundry decided oh we'll just have no opinion on anything and so I don't think that would you know I don't to me that doesn't apply at all to when you have a different you know you hard fork and into eCash and you have this separate thing and there if this is directly in their financial interest to add more L2s and try them out and only get rid of them if they are kind of causing some kind of huge hit to the bottom line in some mysterious way which is very unlikely to come up in the first place this is very hard to add a Drivechain that like decreases total mining revenues so of course they would be thinking oh we should add them and of course if if they can't if you can't convince miners to add the L2 then that it might mean that the L2 is just not that compelling at first just the fact that we'd have two or three L2s this I think this dramatically alters governance so if we just ship with a few different L2s it's no longer it's a completely different governance situation where it's like with Bitcoin core if you try and you get rejected then it's kind of like sort of shameful for you even if your idea was good and then now it becomes awkward for Bitcoin core they can never admit that they made a mistake it'll be awkward for them if the idea ever succeeds but it's completely different when you can go across the street from one L2 to a different like if you had Thunder one Thunder two and then he was like oh I'm gonna take my idea to the other L2 then fine I think that's very or I'm gonna embark upon the process to create a new L2 so I think it's a completely different situation in many ways now of course it could still be the case we could still learn that miners attention is so well yeah it's just easier to get away with being passive like you know you have a bunch of mining pools hey what's their opinion on such and such mostly they just haven't weighed in so yeah I think it's a governance defect in Bitcoin that you know it could be fixed but no one even cares because the whole situation as a whole is so screwed up that it's it would be it would actually even if you fix like pools having an opinion on things which you could fix if you tried it wouldn't really change the fact that you know people like core don't want to stick out there they're cowards and they don't want to stick out their neck on for anything that is actually interesting and people like Michael Saylor don't want any Bitcoin development to take place at all and they don't want any privacy improvements and probably theoretically happy that the samurai devs went to jail I would imagine that's the true that's logically implied by Michael Saylor's position so we already live in this world where everything is totally out of whack so I think that the governance situation is fine now we go back to the hash rate you had laid out a scenario where coin launches and you say the price goes down but that's kind of weird isn't it because really the price is kind of basically zero before it exists that's my interpretation is that it can only go up yeah I mean like from the starting price or whatever that is it keeps going down for some time that's what I meant yeah a lot of people will sell a lot of these people are dead weight and we need them to sell so that's and I think a lot of people are way some people have the opinion that is it's pointless to actually promote the coin until you know like people are waiting for like the low price automatically is like a feedback loop that actually helps the project so the high price helps and the low price helps it sounds paradoxical and weird and it sort of is to some extent but if you think about it like this the high price helps obviously because it's validating for the project and it makes everything oh this was the right idea and they think now not only do I know this is a good idea but a lot of other people know as well so that's very very good obviously but the the low price also it also invites a little bit of thought for people where they say well hey listen before such-and-such was the case but now the price is so low that you know if I just sell 1% of my BTC or whatever it is I can accumulate a huge quantity of this this other thing and so anyone out there who thinks oh you know what what this project needs is just one or two or three things and I can I could give it one of them and maybe I could find someone to give it the other two now they have an incentive to buy tune up the project like maybe all the only thing the project needs is the right way of explaining the project or maybe it needs you know whatever wallet or something just these are just examples but so the lower the price will kind of have to go we kind of do need because again the problem is cultural so we want we need the community to separate and we need different people to be different stakeholders on the coin because until you do that why would anyone unveil their big their big move because the way to make money is to hope that if you really if you're a true believer you kind of want to hope that you can accumulate at a very low price and then reveal your big thing and you know when the hard fork occurs there'll be millions of people who own the coin and maybe find out maybe not all of them will find out about it but then that is certainly it leads to these conversations about okay what exactly will ETFs and all these people do with the coin they could try to ignore it or destroy it or sell it or whatever but then the point is to have to you know I think all those things any of those things would be good actually for the project now the the issue is the end game the end game is everything in chess and usually in life but not always so you were saying in your little story that the price go down we'll get some users and then it'll become like an altcoin then you said something kind of curious or you said oh maybe one day I'll have more hash rate but it will still be low on the list the scenario that interests me the most is a scenario where the transaction fee revenues from usage so forget about the exchange rate but the exchange rate transaction fees are rising geometrically so that doesn't mean super high but maybe they go up let's say they go up 10% every year to me this means that eventually there will be a time just mathematically so say BTCs transaction fees are flat but on eCash across all the L2s they grow 10% a year and you know like we have to zoom way out here depending on where we started because 10% of 45 cents is a lot less than 10% of like whatever 100 billion dollars but you know have you ever played that game where someone says would you rather have a million dollars or would you rather one penny on January 1st and then two pennies on January 2nd and then four pennies on January 3rd and then you get to January 31st and then you stop and that's the thing about geometric growth is it accumulates to an enormous extent and so if you get to a point where the transaction fee revenues and of course what are bitcoins what are BTCs transaction fee revenues today very very low and the block subsidy cannot be bolstered significantly by increases in price any longer both because the price can't go up very much but also because the halvings cut 95% every 16 years they cut 95% of them and of the block subsidy value anyway so so if you have a situation where BTC transaction fees are like sort of basically flat paid to miners and you have a situation where rival chain is going up 10% per year you'll eventually reach a point where they go up so much they're going up so much in each two-week period that it will just drain all 100% of the hash rate from BTC because eventually it will be just leaping up by such a huge amount that it will take basically forever for the BTC hash rate to adjust down and then once it does adjust down it'll already be too late because the fee rate will just keep growing now of course you know you have to like take out a pen and a paper and try to figure out when if ever that might happen but that is like a guaranteed win in the endgame if nothing changed now of course a million things would change you know BTC probably activate Drivechains at some point or something similar maybe I don't know but they won't actually if the if I'm right about how screwed up the culture is which the culture is screwed up because basically everything that everyone says is you know I don't know what the exact word to describe it is but basically we live in a world where in Bitcoin a lot of people are lying to themselves about like why the project is important or how to add value to it or whether or not it's important that we have any users or whether or not it's like do we need revenue for miners do we need privacy do we need developers do we need do we actually compete against these other coins people are lying to themselves on a huge massive scale lightning is just one example of that and I think the situation is probably unfixable and that will mean that all the smart people will just keep leaving and that's why that's the real death spiral is just that it's everyone's just eggs of liquidity. Yeah but like money has no effect you definitely know that so the thing is my current expectation is that it will both be the case that eCash will be in some sense a success but also that Bitcoin will stay being king you know because like you can very much sustain a situation where you know you have like centralized lightning and custodians and whatever and people mostly use it through through them and then also it's the number one because like kind of like the gold standard you know people use banks and whatever which was not ideal but it worked and so I imagine that's my my current expectation that it will both be the case that yes eCash will have some success but also that Bitcoin will stay being the king and it will just become a centralized thing in that sense. Well I think the network effect both ways because Bitcoin is currently held up by a lot of high expectations that the price will continue to go up that it will eventually take over as global money like a lot of people have these expectations so that's that's lifting BTC up. I think you know what has stronger network effects than Bitcoin is the US dollar so if you only think network effects matter then the US dollar is going to stomp Bitcoin into the ground but you clearly don't think that and you know the network effect has the opposite issue like I was talking about where the network effect has like I was I just mentioned before like if the price is low then anyone who thinks oh you know what no you know what this project needs to increase the price is just these one two or three things I'm gonna buy and then do those things and then as part of the whole project I'm gonna make money that the opposite is true and this has already happened in BTC where we the Bitcoin used to have lots and lots of lots of really smart people but as the price has gone up a lot of people have just you know they just shrug and they just decide you know I've got a family now I've got a got a kids and people just quit so the smartest best people who who joined Bitcoin the earliest because like if you joined Bitcoin after 2019 then you know you really don't have an opinion about about anything and so but all these the smartest people who joined earliest they they a lot of them just like kind of basically retired or left and so the network effect hits the other way because it's like the price is high but it's like oh yeah just liquidate so I mean I agree to some extent but I think that really what we've seen is yeah a lot of complacency because Bitcoin has been number one for so long people just think I mean there's numerous examples fall of Rome it being the big one but there's many examples of people just saying well you know this this has been around for a long time it's pretty hard to make something permanent especially when it's constantly lying to itself about important issues so I think actually the network effect is going to be it's the partly the Novocaine that blinds everyone to the all the the problems in BTC people just think well here's number one so anything you can come up with any problem you want you could say look I found this really big problem and people say hey look it's number one it's like when that lady says 9-eleven I'm family guy and it's just whatever the thing is we could say oh like we whatever problem you could bring up you could say well it has no future it's gonna die off people just say well it's number one and so it's like a thought terminating cliche yeah to be more specific it's because what you said the thing about the US dollar having metric fives and well that's true but the thing is that the US dollar is inflationary as with any other whereas Bitcoin is not inflationary you know so I think that's one of the strongest thing but you're right you're saying that the properties also matter that's all I'm trying to say is the network effects matter and the properties matter right so it's not only network effects sure but the thing is it seems to me that the the network effects matter more in a sense of the like people can use Bitcoin like in a centralized way and they already do and like they will probably keep doing that you know so I don't know the thing is we'll have to see you know only time will tell the thing yeah of course no I don't think that we have a very high chance of succeeding but we do have a much higher chance than I think I don't think people realize to so screwed at BTC is actually and how much of it will just automatically come to light eventually and so it'll be like the Theranos example I mean it's already 612 so hopefully if someone wants to come up and talk please request soon but it'll be like the Theranos example where like the the papering over the hard problems has only made them much worse like a lot of the stuff a lot of the problems basically all of the problems that BTC has now could easily be fixed if we could just talk about them but we cannot so we can never fix them okay we have sad scholar hello yes hello I think I added him hello yes hello how are you can you hear me I can hear you yes I wasn't sure I had too much to add to this particular conversation of these particular topics I do think that um you know I think I think a lot of us know that there's some issues with Bitcoin core that's going on you know I think having I remember and I think I think I spoke with you about this Paul like we used to talk about having like light Litecoin as like a playground right to experiment and do things on and and then maybe bring those things to Bitcoin right you know to try to have like a tempered expectation of how to move things forward and in a development fashion and I don't even see things like that happen anymore so I think more or less people talk about like whether or not a project succeeds or not I think is not almost the right way to look at it but the better way to look at it is what other benefits can come from having advancements in development in the space in general right if somebody wants to test something on a real chain with real liquidity right and you're not ever gonna be able to test that on on on bitcoins main main net but there's another chain out there that allows you to kind of step forward and test out these theories like that's not really a bad thing I think I think that's a good thing and I think having an ability to test things and have a test bed that you know has the ability to have some real loss because if you're just testing things without the it's like paying playing poker without without money right sure you can do it and maybe you might even get good but the odds of that are slim if you're gonna learn to play poker you got to learn to play with real money because then there's real chances on the table real losses on the table and you're able to actually learn from mistakes and grow and so that's kind of what I think I'm not sure if that really adds to this specific conversation I think it's a very good it's a very good point and it speaks to I do there's I agree and I also disagree slightly which I'll get to that but I think yeah there's stuff like Bitcoin Inquisition and Litecoin and stuff used to be like yeah and people used to just be able to play around and tinker with things and I think the lack of tinkering it actually is a result of this weird cult that we formed where everyone just thinks that Bitcoin is perfect Bitcoin can't be improved immaculate conception blah blah blah and so it's become like a hatred and fear of anything new and dismissal of all innovation and so all that I think all that's related that's also related to just overconfident stuff shared about you know what lightning can do and whatever people just stick to the same points year after year you know they're not true okay now this there's a part where I disagree and I kind of think more like Marcus is right to focus on like will it replace BTC because you're talking about poker you know rightly so but it's like in poker imagine there's a thing in poker where if you win the hand you also lose all of your money so if you lose you lose and then if you win you lose well people won't even bother playing the game and that is an issue with this type of scenario because if you say oh I've got a better version of Bitcoin Bitcoin 2.0 then you put it out there and then everyone realizes that oh it is better but if it's very easy for BTC to just then copy it so then you're in the situation where if you lose you lose your idea actually sucks and it's terrible then you lose but if you win you also lose so you kind of have to do you really do need to frame the whole thing in terms of can this actually become number one because that's the only way anyone will well in my view is that there will be only one cryptocurrency so it's like to me that either I'll be zero or they'll be very high this is the way to be one winner and a lot of losers so I kind of think like yeah you're either it'll just end up being worth zero if it's no good and if it's and if it wins it will be worth a ton but in order for it to win BTC has to lose so that is why I think you might want there is some it's almost like if you can't replace BTC you have no property right into the the idea you know like you haven't I'm not talking about like you like a patent or anything I'm just saying like it doesn't matter if the idea is good because even if it's good you'll lose and so you kind of only want to talk about will it will it win and that's kind of why I do focus on the cultural issues in BTC which I think are just gonna kill BTC one guy has been trying iron or whatever and I tried to keep trying to bring him up but it sort of doesn't work but I'm gonna try again but so yeah I think that you kind of have no choice but to frame it as I think it worked this time you kind of have no choice but to frame it as a rival risk competition because otherwise you can't do the experiment it's exactly what you were saying you were saying you need to do a real poker chips yeah I mean and I think the competition is a good thing regardless right I mean I think sometimes you need competition otherwise you know you get lazy and hubris starts to set up right and but it's not a real competition unless the winner can win and the loser loses so I think that's that's kind of related okay we got iron is now up here hello hey Paul how you doing man I'm doing great out of me hey I talked to a couple of guys they mentioned that you were okay with you I guess posting the the new Twitter channel since I know we had the with the communities kind of going away the X did away with it we created a new blue check verified Twitter Twitter channel for the Solana eCash version of the project just want to kind of highlight that I'll tweet it out but it was love if you wouldn't mind sharing it at some point and if you had any updates and I know some of the guys just want me to ask you kind of what your thoughts were for preliminary ideas you had if you're open to discussing it it's the same idea and I did make like a tiny little spreadsheets very very tiny but I shared it with a few people so I'll share with you also and if we can post it I thought it's a very simple idea where it's just like you know the creator fees are just that's just like money being paid to me so I'll just interpret that as people purchasing the real eCash and then the challenge is logistically getting it back but I that's what I posted about so I think it'll be fun for everyone and it'd be interesting hopefully yeah not pretty it's definitely support what you're doing I mean honestly it feels like you know second chance Bitcoin you're not only are you improving the chain that's dying in a number of ways but for the average you know retail person who might have missed it in 2011 literally like getting in a hot tub time machine and going back and having an opportunity to buy a Bitcoin at $30 with coins so super fun project be a part of appreciate you well hey thank thank you I just want to say to to a lot of people that are saying like you can't do this year you shouldn't do this I mean if we're not free market capitalists and libertarians working with open source protocols like then what else are we like people people can do pretty much whatever they want and if it fails it fails if it doesn't it doesn't like to say you can't you like you can't do this you can't do something with your own money I just I really just reject that framing in its totality well yeah I agree and I would also point out that you know people said this before when Bitcoin was first created people said oh you know they can't just do that they can't just create so that's funny that we Bitcoiners are rebels but I think what some of these people mean if we could play devil's advocate for them you know should we even bother I don't know but it's like these people have an argument that goes something like this and they say well hey Bitcoin is the final solution you know Bitcoin is the one answer and it's the perfect thing and everything else is a distraction so Bitcoin is perfect and everything else is different from perfect aka worse and so they think every anyone who talks about anything other than you know shilling Bitcoin and anyone doesn't involve anything else they're just distracting and delaying you know the revolution the great BTC revolution and it would never even occur to these people that they are the ones who are delaying the BTC revolution by you know disabling the culture of truth and making it possible to talk about fix bitcoins problems so they just basically have this claim to certitude they just they're absolutely certain that they are right and they think okay Bitcoin is the way to go they're absolutely certain of that and if you're absolutely certain of anything you know that's how you're gonna react you're gonna say well no one should do anything else you know we could find plenty of fundamentalist Islam people who think you know they also found certainty and you could find that in every you know you can go down the line and there's all kinds of organizations political organizations religious cults etc so people you know whenever anyone is certain that they found the truth that's usually a clue that you should run away and they have not found the truth and I think that's the case here so they just the argument is something like we know that Bitcoin BTC is the best we know that it's gonna fix everything so who are all these people who are saying that that's not true oh they must be it must be liars or talking to them is a waste of time and yeah the irony is of course a lot of people saying this you know like I joined the Bitcoin community a long long long time ago I was like presenting at scaling one and and scaling two and three and I was in the program committee for not saying that that matters but this this idea that people are just absolutely certain they believe that absolutely certain to have found the truth you know that's that's what gets you in the end they should look into you know why people disagree with them I think yeah no that's I think that's I think that's a real good point to again that plays into the the hubris I would think right oh yeah exactly okay only five minutes left so jump up quick Paul I think you should also repeat the first talking points about the mining pool and the bounty because when you were saying that it was maybe only 10-15 people listening and now there's more of them we're doing a bug bounty you can scroll back to my tweets to find the link or you can go to to Drivechain that info find the articles section where it is a blog post and it's a hundred thousand dollars and I'm going to massively increase it if there's lots of bugs being found but hundred thousand and basically it's five rounds of twenty thousand per round and you find bugs and you send them in and then every every two weeks whoever is found the most bugs especially bugs in certain software and especially severe bugs and especially bugs that other people didn't find so these are the this is all explained in the post but yeah if you find those types of bugs you can get first place and if you get in first place and no one else enters then you win twenty thousand dollars otherwise you win some other amount of money which I have a chart so then there is prizes for first second and third place and if there are lots of bugs are found then maybe I'll expand it and I'll make it you know first through fifth place or add more money or something and so that's the bug bounty contest and then also we have this new thing simple pool and it is is brand new and not everything is implemented yet but it's just the starting point because I've always wanted there to be an open source pool I think we should have this open source pool software that so we all know exactly what's going on in the pool and we should optimize it so that the pools themselves want to use it and it's like some you know really good open source library that's just the best in the in the the other best available we should also have this pool hopper software so that miners don't have to think as much about you know they just point their hash at one thing and it will decide for them if they want you know which pool to go to so they get the most money you know PPS and then there's also a way of the pool paying people out without the pool custodying the funds so that that's also better so that's a that's preliminary but that's also I announced it and I there's links to my writing on this topic on how it should work and why and there's also link to the github and it is not supposed to actually replace any of the the brands you know like foundry or whatever ideally they would just use this software and if people don't want to use it then they don't have to but I think that the you know we want people to have I just think there should be an open source pool that just is committed to aggressively revenue maximizing so so it's the opposite of Luke's censorship money destroying pool in that way okay so now it's only two minutes left so if you're really really fast you can hop up I see that but if not here I would love to have him on to share some opinions well he can come up but there's not that much time so he can hop up but I I selected a tweet of his for my lightning tweet this morning about I had other tweets but he's like yeah the people who are in the know the you know like the people who are very very knowledgeable about lightning they you know they just don't think that the non custodial lightning will actually work so there's publicly available information about that I think we'll have to wait until next week for more questions but this has been great even though we only had very few people this time but we had pretty good conversation nonetheless or maybe because of that I don't know but now it's 630 so I have to go but this has been really great so see everyone next week I'm thinking about changing the format maybe I'll go to Clubhouse or something else I don't know but I'll let everyone know I'll post the announcement so thanks very much and thanks to everyone who asked questions and made comments so thanks see you guys later