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Hello Bitcoiners, Colin here. In this episode of the Unhashed Podcast, Mario is
still gone,

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but we have something that is obviously better, because what could be worse, am I
right?

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Paul Sztorc is on the show today, and he's here to talk peer-to-peer oracles and
prediction

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markets. What can you predict what his opinion will be on whether or not Dogecoin is
a sidechain

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of Litecoin? Find out the answers to these and other questions on this week's
episode

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of the Unhashed Podcast. See you on the other side.

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Hello and welcome to the Unhashed Podcast show, where we bring crypto down to earth
and cut

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through all the blockchain bullshit. I'm your host, Colin Alds, and I'm here with
your co-host,

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Ruben, the windmill, the Panenkoken, the Dutch rudder, Somsen. Hello. And I'm here
with my

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brother, my blood, Brian, the belt buckle, the burger, Alds. Howdy. Your other
co-host, Mario,

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the maple leaf, the gib, the jib, the glib, the tactful, but verbose Gibney is still
not here,

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but he shall return next week. However, in his stead, we have a very special guest,

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someone we've been teasing about getting on the show for months now, and we just
never scheduled

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it. But we said, God damn it. We put our foot down and we said, we're going to bring
on Paul,

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the stork, sports stork. I don't know how you say your last name. I was going to ask
you because I

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never asked you in person. No, you know that that's that's what you have to do. You
have to

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make a stork joke and then you have to use the Paul sports reference. You really
know your your

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Bitcoin uncensored history is very important. That's the only the only thing you
really need

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to know to navigate the blockchain world. And and then you just kind of make
something up and that's

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it. It is pronounced storts because the C, the crescent shape is a different letter
in Polish.

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It's not really an English C, it's a Polish name and it's pronounced storts. Yes,

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gotcha. So you speak of speaking of Bitcoin uncensored. Rest in peace. You know,
Paul,

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actually, the first time I ever heard of you was on the Bitcoin uncensored episode
where they snuck

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into Satoshi roundtable and they hounded you for like 10 minutes trying to get you
to show your

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nipples on camera. Oh, yes, I yeah, I remember that, even though I don't remember
all of that

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because there was a lot of drinking that night. Yeah, well, they made fun of you for
drinking

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Long Island iced tea. I was pounding the Long Island iced tea. That part is 100
percent real.

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They they convinced me. I rewatched it while sober before they put me on the camera.
They

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had convinced there was a big scandal as to who had revealed to them the location of
the secret

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roundtable meeting because they weren't invited, but they crashed and they knew in
advance.

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So they got the you know, they got like the Club Med pass or something so they could
be there.

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And they had worked all this out. And so someone everyone was like, who told them?

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How did they find out where it was? And they had convinced me that it was Adam Back,

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even though that was clearly a joke. When I was sober, I realized that they were
just

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messing with me at the time. I enthusiastically endorsed it while while drunk and
like on the

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show. So that's just one of the many funny things that happened in the show.

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And little did you know that it actually ended up being you that had given away.

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Yeah, right. They say that right. They accused me of that. And then I immediately
threw Adam

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Back under the bus. I was like, no, that's not true. It was Adam Back. And then when
I rewatched

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it while I was sober, I was like, oh, my God, you know, I was like putting all the
pieces together

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as to like what happened. So just for just for the listeners who who may not be

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familiar with you, I think most of them will be, but there might be one or two, you
know,

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two out of the five listeners that we have may not know who you are.

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Can you just give everyone sort of a background on on what you're up to,

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who you are, where you're working, what your projects are, that kind of thing?

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Yeah, so I'm like, I have a formal background in economics. And when I discovered

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Bitcoin, I was in graduate school, not ironically, for it was for finance, not for
economics. But

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I then moved into a kind of pre PhD research statistician job at Yale University.
And the

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guy I was working for, Bill Nordhaus, he actually won the Nobel Prize in economics
earlier this year.

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And I was immersed in in academia and economics. And I have a bachelor's degree in
economics now

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that so I'm like a big economics statistics guy, which is where I was coming from.
And in

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particular, something I really, really like is the the uber Hayek in idea of
prediction markets,

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as popularized by the economist, Robin Hanson, but also popularized by how Finney,

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who a lot of people think could plausibly be Satoshi Nakamoto, certainly won someone
very

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high on the list. And since he did a reasonable proofs of work, I believe,

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just a few years earlier, which was directly on that path. And so this is a kind of
a really

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cool idea, this prediction markets idea. And in 2013, I wrote a little bit of code.

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And in 24, early for 2014, January, I wrote a paper called truth going about a peer
to peer

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Oracle, so an Oracle without any authority, and it would, it would try to figure out
what happened

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in the real world. And if you could do that, then you could have people and you had
Bitcoin,

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you add that you add these ingredients together, and what you get is something where
people can

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trade derivatives that are based off of real world events. So if you do that,

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you get a lot of finance, you get a lot of insurance, you get a lot of gambling,

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sports, gambling, and things like that. But in particular, I wanted to use it for
something

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that's sometimes called futarchy, which is where you make assets that are co the
price of these

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assets co vary with politicians competence. So you'd say like, we'd have like the
Trump asset,

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and maybe the I don't know who the front runner is currently in the United States
for president,

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but it could be like Joe Biden or something. Yeah, Elizabeth Warren and Kamala
Harris.

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And you'd have these assets that would go up in value if conditional on them being
elected,

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they would be good for the unemployment rate or something. So there'd just be all
these,

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this matrix of prices. And it would just say, well, if you vote this person in this
is what

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you can expect the unemployment rate to be in the future, like in 20 the year 2021
2022.

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And that's a very ambitious project. Because of course, a lot of what we a lot of
our problems

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today are greatly exacerbated by the fact that the public sector is so unreasonable,

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and that the feedback process for correcting mistakes in the public sector is this
very slow

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election process once every few years, and most of the voters can't be bothered to

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look any of this stuff up. Which is understandable because of, you know,

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just the mathematics of voting and the reality of modern life being complicated and
all these

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things. So I had a very ambitious kind of vision. And it's actually Roger Ver,
Blockstream and Roger

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Ver both tried to offer me a job or Blockstream actually wanted to offer me a kind
of partnership

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in November of 2014, I think. And then I just from purely for reasons of timing, I
think it

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was Roger Ver who ended up hiring me away from university to work on this project in
which I did

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in 2015. And then at the end of 2015, the project involved layer two and sidechain
specifically.

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And at the end of 2015, I wrote a paper about a simple two way peg because it seemed
like all the

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complicated two way pegs weren't making any progress or coming out. And I'm sure we
may

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get into this. But at the end of 2015, I wrote something called drivechain. And then
after a while

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in 2016, after kind of presenting it scaling three, I started working on that
shifted my

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attention to working on that having worked on the peer to peer Oracle software, and
basically

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completed it. And that project said Bitcoin Hivemind.com and Drivechains at
drivechain.info.

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So that's a pretty long, that was a pretty long overview of like a ton of things.

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So Paul, our Drivechains, was that also like an attempt to implement prediction
markets as

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a sidechain? Or was that not really? Yes, this precisely is that my primary
motivation is to

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turn the prediction market software on. But I think... Without creating an altcoin
specifically.

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Right. Exactly. The altcoin, you know, it puts the entire...

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There's no way that these projects exist. It's very interesting that the various
points of view

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that people have on this and how those points of view are, are described and then
misconstrued and

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then propagandized. But I think, you know, you really cannot have an altcoin without
it being

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an aggressive competitor to Bitcoin. That's just the nature of these projects that
they all compete.

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Yeah. And so there's no real way to introduce an altcoin without trying to harm

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harm, for lack of a better phrase, Bitcoin. And there's no real reason for that. I
mean,

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first of all, I think I would lose. But second of all...

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You're resetting the distribution, right? That's part of the problem. Like,

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how do you get these coins equally distributed amongst people? And

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there's just a whole lot of problems there. And it ends up turning into a pump and
dump inevitably.

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So obviously, if that's not your goal, if your goal is not to create a token, it
would be much

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better if you didn't have to do it and you could just focus on the actual
technology,

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which in your case is prediction markets. Yeah, precisely. Gavin Andreessen had an
old,

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a long time ago, before numerous dramatic events happened, he said that altcoins
were a sneaky way

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of getting around the 21 million coin limit. And I actually think that that is the
correct

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take on it, that actually, there's a kind of universe of value and it's split up
into various

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currencies that instantiate it. And the US dollar has like a certain market share
and the euro has

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a certain market share. And the altcoins are, they are minting new value into
existence that

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um, mostly is cannibalizing BTC, not all of it, but I think most of it is
cannibalizing

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BTC value that, and then you have that today when people talk about crypto in
quotes, you have

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people, Brian Armstrong and the treasury secretary today to talk about crypto.
Instead, they could be

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talking about Bitcoin if these other things weren't existent. And that's really
what's going

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on here is that Bitcoin was 100% of the crypto kind of at one point, and now it's
merely more

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than all the other coins put together. We have to content ourselves with that, but
we could probably

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do better, even better than that, I think. I mean, I think there is one small issue
here,

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which is that the whole ICO altcoin field is so profitable, that a lot of the money
marketing

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goes there, right? So for example, like your, your Drivechains idea, if it was,

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if you made it as an altcoin, it would be much more sought after and, and people
would be

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promoting, promoting it if, if they had a coin they could hold on to and profit from
promoting

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your idea, right? So, so there is this whole thing, I think, where there is
interesting technology

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that's not even getting attention because people don't care because there's not a
token they can

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hold and profit from. Well, I think that's true. That could be true for your state
chains idea.

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I think one disappointing thing is how, I mean, if you, this is a lesson taught by
Dan Larimer,

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I think most of all, which is that if you just launched a coin, you have access to
just so many

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brainwashed servants who will just show the coin, do whatever you want to make any
excuse for your

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behavior. And that is really, that's really something to be, to be living in a world
where

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you know that all you have to do is throw this little switch and you could get
millions of

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dollars and you could get like an army of like brainwashed supporters. And it's,
that's kind of

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depressing. They could be just opportunists who are better at reading the pump and
dump process

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than... I agree with that as well. One of the reasons why it's problematic is that
it's a kind

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of crime against truth because it just makes the world much harder to figure out.
You can never

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figure out why is anyone saying any of this? Do they actually believe in BSV or is
it like a joke

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or is it, you know, is it just a performance? And so that's one annoying thing about
all of these

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is that they just make the world more difficult to figure out. You definitely, the
more moral

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thing would almost always be on the side of the growth of knowledge and of clarity.
And then

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these often just put you, you're just handcuffed to these railroad tracks of just
going further

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and further into a place where no one can figure out what anyone's real position is.

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Yeah, I think that's absolutely accurate. And that's maybe the biggest problem where

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you really don't have these tokens being promoted because the technology is good,

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but they're being promoted because people want to find the next idiot that

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buys this token from them. And that just massively distorts the signal of accurate
information. And

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yeah, that's a real pity. There is one. The hard fork, I think, is a huge
improvement. It still

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has basically the same problem, but it does improve a lot in that the guy running
the scheme

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doesn't get to write himself a gigantic check like on day zero, which that's like
some of the

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stuff that people put up with. And I just kind of can't believe there is a, this
came from Chris

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DeRose, the idea of the military saying in the U.S. that the officers eat last,

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which is taken literally, I believe, but also figuratively that the people in
charge,

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they don't get the food until all the subordinates get their food. And that's a

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kind of way of preventing agency cost and corruption, for lack of a better word. It

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just says the guy at the top is going to suffer the most harm, very much the skin in
the game

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type thing. But with these projects, you get the exact opposite of that. These
people just,

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they get off scot-free immediately. Ethereum, Vitalik can sell 25% of his ETH,

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become a multimillionaire. The project basically hasn't launched given the percent
of the features

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that were claimed versus that it has today and the features that it's rapidly
losing.

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But it's also, I think, what people want, because they are actually desiring
somebody being in

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charge and taking a huge stake and pushing the project forward and making these
dream-like

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promises where nothing of it, none of them come true, but it doesn't matter because
all you're

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looking for is that next pump, where especially with Ethereum, there's always this
new technology

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on the horizon. It's just a couple of months away. Yeah, a couple of months and then
it's

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going to be golden. Then there's going to be scaling, infinite transactions. And
then every

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time, it just changes. As soon as people don't believe in that thing anymore, then
there's a

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new thing that's going to come in a couple of months and it just keeps going. It
certainly

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does. And as Zcash in particular, I couldn't believe that people would put up with
the

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the dev tax, which is an unbelievable amount of money if you do the math.

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But that's a perfect example. People just put up with it and they just say, we want
a

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bunch of smart people in charge. Because there was a fork that took out the dev tax
and nobody

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cared about the fork. Right, exactly. And that shows that the market cares about the
leaders.

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Yeah, it does. And you'd think if you were just, you know, quietly sitting in a room
alone with a

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piece of paper, you'd say, oh, one has a dev tax, one doesn't. So this one must be
more valuable.

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Right? Yeah, I mean, I know. People demand having a leader. They cannot not have a
leader.

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But that's because the value is in the promises. And that makes it very clear once

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you have this fork where one of them doesn't have the leader, the other one does
have the

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leader. And I don't know. I don't know. That's everything, though. I mean, like even
in Bitcoin,

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you do see this strange yearning for Satoshi to reemerge. I mean, maybe not among
like the super,

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super, I don't know, Bitcoin realists out there. But I feel like among the base or
to use a

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Derosian term, the hoi polloi of Bitcoin, you do you do still see this yearning for
a leader.

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And we we know we kind of don't want it. But at the same time, we kind of want it.
And and I mean,

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maybe it has to do with, you know, you have a face to put out in front of the
camera,

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then it helps your bags grow in value faster. But I mean, Bitcoin seems to be doing
fine without a

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leader. It's it's gaining dominance. But yet we still kind of want one for some
reason or many

185
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people do, at least maybe not. Maybe not you or me, but well, teamwork is valuable.
So that's

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it's normal to want to work on a team. If I think if the protocol got to a point
where it never

187
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changed, all of these discussions would become moot. Right. Because what would the
point of it

188
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be? It would just be like this is Bitcoin and it exists in an eternal, unchanging
state. But

189
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Bitcoin does go through versions and we have a very clever institution of the soft
fork,

190
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which lets all the old versions tag along, even though they're partially degraded to
SPV mode,

191
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which is kind of interesting, because in my view, they kind of like they kind of
become like

192
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an older node, an older full node, like a full node of like Bitcoin version 12 or
something

193
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is like degraded to like 70% full and like 30% SPV or something is kind of a weird
phenomenon.

194
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You can imagine if everything was SegWit blocks, then the pre-SegWit

195
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nodes would not be verifying any of those transactions. That's what you mean, right?

196
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Yes. Well, they wouldn't be each individual transaction. They wouldn't be checking
the

197
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signatures. They would be checking that like the accounting added up. But I'm
planning to

198
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write something about this, about this kind of this idea of this full and SPV thing
is

199
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a lot more relative than I think people think it is. You have someone like Luke Jr.
who will say

200
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you have to run a full node. I'm not sure that sentence really means anything in a
world where

201
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the protocol changes because it's who you know in the future, who knows what new
popular feature

202
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:35,680
will be in Bitcoin version like 23 or something. Right. But that's an interesting
kind of concept.

203
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And for these changes, sorry to interrupt, but I just wanted to finish the point
about Satoshi,

204
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which is that I think it's when the protocol goes to its new versions. So it's like
when

205
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SegWit is added or when someone proposes a hypothetical hard fork to increase the
block

206
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size. Those are where people lose the kind of magic of the blockchain, which is that
it just

207
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tells us what to do. And they say, now, where should we go from here? And then when
that happens,

208
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there's constant appeals to what Satoshi said. And I don't need to tell, I think
anyone who's

209
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been paying attention will see, you will see those everywhere. Yeah. But it's, you
know,

210
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I do think that there is a slight difference between SPV and this kind of soft fork
upgrading,

211
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which is that the old full nodes actually are opting into the soft fork by having
these opcodes

212
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that allow for these soft forks to happen. So it's not like you could run a full
node that

213
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actually just rejects any soft fork, or at least the soft forks that are done
through the protocol

214
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:52,240
with these opnops or now with the SegWit changes. So you could theoretically run a
node that just

215
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:59,760
outrightly rejects these, and then you would have that version of the software that
doesn't change.

216
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,680
But people don't want it. So they are already opting into it.

217
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,400
You would soft fork yourself right off the network if you did that.

218
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,160
Yeah, you'd hard fork yourself off the network.

219
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:14,640
Well, yeah, you'd be out of the network. But I actually, it's interesting, I tried
to give a

220
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:20,640
talk about this, but I don't think it was successful. But at Building on Bitcoin,

221
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my talk was trying to be about exactly this, that there were these zones,

222
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zones in which people had opted in. And so I think what you're getting at is that

223
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there are these opcodes that have been defined as being, this is the place where new
features are.

224
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And so you will at least know that you are in a new feature world. So you won't be
checking it,

225
00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:55,120
but you'll know, nothing unexpected will happen. You'll say, oh, I expected that
eventually people

226
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would start using these opcodes for something, and maybe I don't know what it is.

227
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:08,400
It can get a little confusing if your friend upgrades, they receive a transaction
that is

228
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:14,240
paid with like opnop7 or something, and you have no idea what that's doing. And then
they pay you

229
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:20,160
with that money. Now it gets weird because you can check, when you ask him to pay
you,

230
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:26,240
you can fully check that transaction, but you don't really know how he got the
money.

231
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:26,400
Right.

232
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,720
And then it starts to become SPV mode sort of again. But it's funny you bring this
up,

233
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,240
because the entire purpose of this talk that I was trying to give at Building on
Bitcoin, which

234
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I think if you go to drivechain.info literature section, you can look it up.

235
00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:44,480
And then I also wrote like some bullet points where I linked to the presentation
that maybe

236
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:51,920
help clarify what I was trying to get at. But what it was, is that this is an
advantage of

237
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:56,160
sidechains versus protocol upgrades, because with sidechains...

238
00:24:56,355 --> 00:25:00,355
...you very explicitly designate a zone where you are not going to look at what's
happening at all.

239
00:25:03,355 --> 00:25:09,355
So it's actually an advantage of sidechains that says, unlike the opnop7 thing, with
opnop7,

240
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it might suddenly become your problem, where if someone says, oh yeah, opnop7 works
like this,

241
00:25:17,355 --> 00:25:21,355
and then you're like, wait a minute, my friend just paid me, but he didn't check
properly,

242
00:25:22,355 --> 00:25:27,355
and now this whole thing is at risk of being unwound and the whole blockchain is
probably going to reorganize

243
00:25:27,355 --> 00:25:31,355
and I'm not going to get paid. But with sidechains, it doesn't work like that at
all.

244
00:25:31,355 --> 00:25:37,355
With sidechains, it actually just says, layer one is not going to look at this ever.

245
00:25:37,355 --> 00:25:42,355
And so you get paid through the sidechain, but it doesn't matter because the SPV
proof cleared

246
00:25:42,355 --> 00:25:48,355
and now you're home free. So it was actually directly relevant to sidechains

247
00:25:48,355 --> 00:25:54,355
and transaction theory, if we want to be so bold as to carve this out now,

248
00:25:54,355 --> 00:25:57,355
which it seems like we might as well come up with a phrase for this now.

249
00:25:57,355 --> 00:26:03,355
Yeah, I mean, I do think there's a point to be made that you chose not to verify
that opnop,

250
00:26:03,355 --> 00:26:08,355
and it is valid according to your rules. And from the perspective of your old node,

251
00:26:08,355 --> 00:26:13,355
it just says, hey, my friend, there was this transaction that anybody could claim,

252
00:26:13,355 --> 00:26:16,355
my friend happened to claim it, and then he gave the money to me.

253
00:26:16,355 --> 00:26:20,355
And that kind of thing could get reorg too, theoretically.

254
00:26:20,355 --> 00:26:25,355
So it's, I think it's still within the rules, but it is definitely like,

255
00:26:25,355 --> 00:26:29,355
there's this question of, oh, are other people going to reject this transaction?

256
00:26:29,355 --> 00:26:34,355
It's not about you, you specifically think that transaction is valid, but you're
uncertain about others.

257
00:26:34,355 --> 00:26:39,355
No, that's true. But you could think even for any vanilla, normal, completely
normal,

258
00:26:40,355 --> 00:26:45,355
most basic Bitcoin transaction, if that comes to you, who knows?

259
00:26:45,355 --> 00:26:49,355
It could violate some new software. What about the DARE signatures, right?

260
00:26:49,355 --> 00:26:53,355
The low S-value or high S-value being banned.

261
00:26:53,355 --> 00:26:57,355
You never know what other people are accepting. You don't have that guarantee.

262
00:26:57,355 --> 00:27:00,355
So it actually becomes quite – it becomes inherently social.

263
00:27:00,355 --> 00:27:03,355
And that's an interesting point about it.

264
00:27:03,355 --> 00:27:07,355
I mean, that's kind of the issue with all money.

265
00:27:07,355 --> 00:27:09,355
That is true also, right? You can never know.

266
00:27:09,355 --> 00:27:15,355
If someone could say the $50 bill is easy to counterfeit, and then they suddenly
stop taking it,

267
00:27:15,355 --> 00:27:20,355
or they suddenly stop taking U.S. dollars completely, which is currency crisis.

268
00:27:20,355 --> 00:27:26,355
I mean, in India, they woke up one morning and anything larger than 20 rupee wasn't
worth –

269
00:27:26,355 --> 00:27:31,355
I don't remember what the actual denomination was, but there was a lot of bills that
were just worthless.

270
00:27:31,355 --> 00:27:33,355
Yeah, that's true.

271
00:27:33,355 --> 00:27:37,355
There was a counterfeit problem there, right? Or what was the issue? I forgot.

272
00:27:37,355 --> 00:27:47,355
They said that it was because the criminals, they called it black money over there,
were using those bills.

273
00:27:47,355 --> 00:27:49,355
But I think it was really – yeah.

274
00:27:49,355 --> 00:27:57,355
Yeah, well, they made a lot of people into Bitcoin enthusiasts over there, so that's
great.

275
00:27:57,355 --> 00:27:59,355
We should get them – if only we could get them to do that.

276
00:27:59,355 --> 00:28:04,355
That's my joke on – I don't think – I'm worried that a lot of people aren't getting
the joke.

277
00:28:04,355 --> 00:28:07,355
But on Twitter, I have a joke, the Bitcoin Super PAC.

278
00:28:07,355 --> 00:28:11,355
The Bitcoin Super PAC is basically like a campaign to destroy the U.S. dollar.

279
00:28:11,355 --> 00:28:21,355
But I keep – I will retweet like I recently did Bernie Sanders' plan for free
college and a financial transactions tax,

280
00:28:21,355 --> 00:28:30,355
and I was like, this is great. Bitcoin Super PAC supports arbitrary U.S. dollar
giveaways and taxes on the financial sector.

281
00:28:30,355 --> 00:28:37,355
Let's get that financial tax up and free training for everyone, free everything.

282
00:28:37,355 --> 00:28:49,355
I saw a Bitcoiners for Andrew Yang, and they just wanted to push the U.S. dollar
into hyperinflation.

283
00:28:49,355 --> 00:28:50,355
So I thought that was humorous.

284
00:28:50,355 --> 00:28:51,355
Yeah, definitely.

285
00:28:51,355 --> 00:28:56,355
As a Bitcoiner, you should be pro-tax. You should be pro-government spending.

286
00:28:56,355 --> 00:29:00,355
You should really be like – you should definitely – this is a Chris DeRose thing.

287
00:29:00,355 --> 00:29:09,355
You should want more of the drug laws to be enforced at the street level, but not
for the online darknet markets.

288
00:29:09,355 --> 00:29:11,355
Pro-Iranian sanctions to –

289
00:29:11,355 --> 00:29:12,355
Yeah, exactly.

290
00:29:12,355 --> 00:29:14,355
It does depend on your ultimate goal though.

291
00:29:14,355 --> 00:29:18,355
If your ultimate goal is just to have society be as good as it can be, I guess you
could still say that.

292
00:29:19,355 --> 00:29:23,355
We need society to fail and reemerge with Bitcoin or something.

293
00:29:23,355 --> 00:29:27,355
This is what socialists call accelerationism.

294
00:29:27,355 --> 00:29:38,355
There is this school of thought in socialism where the whole concept is that before
you can get to socialism, you have to reach capitalism.

295
00:29:38,355 --> 00:29:43,355
Before capitalism can end, it has to reach its zenith and then collapse.

296
00:29:44,355 --> 00:29:58,355
So really, if you're a very dedicated socialist, you need to pull for the most
stringent forms of capitalism possible because that's the only way you'll ever reach
the goal of socialism because that's just – that's how it works.

297
00:29:58,355 --> 00:29:59,355
That's the ideology.

298
00:29:59,355 --> 00:30:01,355
I've not heard that view, but that sounds very interesting.

299
00:30:01,355 --> 00:30:02,355
Yeah.

300
00:30:02,355 --> 00:30:05,355
I have a friend who is an accelerationist.

301
00:30:06,355 --> 00:30:17,355
It's so ironic because he's so opposite of me, but yet for the foreseeable future,
his goals are completely aligned with mine.

302
00:30:17,355 --> 00:30:18,355
That's nice.

303
00:30:18,355 --> 00:30:20,355
So we're very good friends.

304
00:30:20,355 --> 00:30:24,355
He'll debate socialists like, you guys are not capitalist enough.

305
00:30:24,355 --> 00:30:26,355
You need to really embrace this.

306
00:30:27,355 --> 00:30:39,355
It is interesting that you mentioned the sort of dollar collapse accelerationist
line because I do have some other very avowed communist friends.

307
00:30:39,355 --> 00:30:48,355
I started to change my tune on the free college for everyone because they're always
posting on Facebook about how Bernie is going to give everyone free college.

308
00:30:48,355 --> 00:30:50,355
I'm like, you know what?

309
00:30:50,355 --> 00:30:52,355
Actually, I do support this now.

310
00:30:52,355 --> 00:30:53,355
They're like, really?

311
00:30:53,355 --> 00:30:54,355
I'm like, yeah.

312
00:30:54,355 --> 00:31:00,355
Anything that accelerates the collapse of the dollar, I'm for, and they're just like
flabbergasted by this concept.

313
00:31:00,355 --> 00:31:01,355
Right.

314
00:31:01,355 --> 00:31:02,355
Here are some other points.

315
00:31:02,355 --> 00:31:03,355
Go ahead.

316
00:31:03,355 --> 00:31:04,355
Exactly.

317
00:31:04,355 --> 00:31:15,355
We have to – a challenge in the modern age is that the world of political
discussion, especially online, is – it's just horrible.

318
00:31:15,355 --> 00:31:17,355
It's just a horrible place.

319
00:31:17,355 --> 00:31:19,355
Especially Twitter.

320
00:31:19,355 --> 00:31:21,355
Yeah, Twitter isn't good.

321
00:31:21,355 --> 00:31:25,355
Basically, you have I think meme evolution where this stuff evolves.

322
00:31:25,355 --> 00:31:38,355
Whatever the stuff that is best at spreading through human brains, by any means
necessary, by the cheapest tricks, exploiting emotions and things, and that will
spread through.

323
00:31:38,355 --> 00:31:50,355
So a lot of that is evolving against the grain away from rational thought towards –
but whatever the point is, is that it's very difficult to discuss politics in like a
fun way.

324
00:31:50,355 --> 00:32:04,355
It's also very difficult in the modern age to critique an idea because of that –
what's that law about if you want to produce – if you have to refute some false
thing, it takes 10 times the energy than it is to just make up a false thing.

325
00:32:04,355 --> 00:32:13,355
So often, satire is a really good way, a cheap way of critiquing an idea, and it's
also sort of fun.

326
00:32:14,355 --> 00:32:32,355
So I think for your own sanity, this is a fun thing to do is kind of just be like,
yeah, if people start – if you want to do this kind of US dollar collapse point of
view, and then you can tell people that in fact, Bitcoin super PAC doesn't even
support property rights at all.

327
00:32:33,355 --> 00:32:42,355
You think that there should be no property of any kind and no banks, and there
should be 100% income tax.

328
00:32:42,355 --> 00:32:57,355
I think that's kind of a fun way to just kind of keep it fun because ultimately,
when people start taking this stuff too seriously, it does ruin their lives I think,
and you don't want that.

329
00:32:57,355 --> 00:33:04,355
Your life is more important than any particular political ideology certainly, and
your life is – believe it or not, your life is more important than Bitcoin even.

330
00:33:04,355 --> 00:33:10,355
So it's definitely more important than flavor of the week, presidential nominee.

331
00:33:10,355 --> 00:33:13,355
Don't give too much of your energy over to that.

332
00:33:13,355 --> 00:33:16,355
I think you ought to buy Bitcoin super PAC domain.

333
00:33:16,355 --> 00:33:19,355
I was thinking about taking this very seriously.

334
00:33:20,355 --> 00:33:41,355
Yeah, Chris DeRose and I, we were actually kind of – what could you do if you went
really, really – and that would just be such a funny thing, and you could – if you
played your cards right, you could end up on CNN talking about how, well, actually,
we don't support property rights, and just kind of let that concept land.

335
00:33:41,355 --> 00:33:44,355
If you think about free college, I think everything should be free.

336
00:33:45,355 --> 00:33:52,355
As long as you qualify – look, we want as many things as possible to be free in this
country so the dollar will collapse.

337
00:33:52,355 --> 00:33:58,355
Yeah, well, I think you kind of can't explain it completely, but I think – yeah, I
did have some lines worked out that were funny.

338
00:33:58,355 --> 00:34:09,355
Like we don't support property rights at all, but we do support net neutrality and
stuff like that just to kind of throw curveballs in there so that people – and we
definitely – we support them for computers.

339
00:34:09,355 --> 00:34:12,355
You should be able to own a computer and an internet connection.

340
00:34:12,355 --> 00:34:15,355
So it should be a capital offense to cut any undersea cables.

341
00:34:15,355 --> 00:34:20,355
That should be like immediate declaration of war if anyone messes with the internet.

342
00:34:20,355 --> 00:34:22,355
The Bitcoin caucus.

343
00:34:22,355 --> 00:34:28,355
It's just like we just – whatever is in the interest of Bitcoin, we –

344
00:34:28,355 --> 00:34:30,355
Well, that's why it's Bitcoin Super PAC.

345
00:34:30,355 --> 00:34:36,355
I think it's got to be Super PAC because of all the nonsense that – do you guys
remember or do you even know what I'm talking about with the Colbert?

346
00:34:36,355 --> 00:34:38,355
It's like Colbert Super PAC.

347
00:34:38,355 --> 00:34:40,355
It's not Bitcoin Super PAC.

348
00:34:40,355 --> 00:34:41,355
It's Colbert Super PAC.

349
00:34:41,355 --> 00:34:45,355
Swift vote veterans for Bitcoin or something like that too maybe.

350
00:34:45,355 --> 00:34:47,355
Yeah, that could be funny too.

351
00:34:47,355 --> 00:34:55,355
You could do like the committee – Swift is destroying America Super PAC or something
like that.

352
00:34:55,355 --> 00:34:57,355
You could go like a negative direction.

353
00:34:57,355 --> 00:34:59,355
Right.

354
00:34:59,355 --> 00:35:05,355
Well, before we get too into the weeds, I do want to get into the weekly news wrap
because there's a lot of interesting stories here.

355
00:35:05,355 --> 00:35:15,355
Just the way our show works, Paul, is we talk about each – I read off a little
segment for each news item and then we kind of talk about it.

356
00:35:15,355 --> 00:35:23,355
And the way I want you to view yourself is you're just a regular host and feel free
to chime in with whatever thoughts you have.

357
00:35:23,355 --> 00:35:27,355
But we try to make the first one at least somewhat relevant to whatever guests we
have.

358
00:35:27,355 --> 00:35:29,355
So I'll go ahead and start.

359
00:35:29,355 --> 00:35:31,355
So number one for our weekly news wrap-up.

360
00:35:31,355 --> 00:35:34,355
Crypto prediction market veil is closing up shop.

361
00:35:34,355 --> 00:35:37,355
The platform was a somewhat more user-friendly front end to Augur.

362
00:35:37,355 --> 00:35:42,355
But due to low demand and, quote, a difficult onboarding process, the team is moving
on to other things.

363
00:35:42,355 --> 00:35:51,355
Now, an ICO-funded company closing down isn't a surprise to anyone, but the fact
that it's centered around prediction markets is something to talk about, especially
with Paul here.

364
00:35:51,355 --> 00:35:57,355
So, yeah, guys, thoughts on this very shocking close-up shop here.

365
00:35:57,355 --> 00:36:01,355
I think the prediction markets are always difficult.

366
00:36:01,355 --> 00:36:05,355
It's a really nice idea and people want it to work.

367
00:36:05,355 --> 00:36:08,355
And it is something I think that's worth pursuing.

368
00:36:08,355 --> 00:36:12,355
But then if you do it in ICO form, it's basically what Paul has been saying.

369
00:36:12,355 --> 00:36:22,355
It's like you get distracted by the coin and the pumping and you kind of forget
about the actual technology and it ends up just not really working out.

370
00:36:23,355 --> 00:36:31,355
I'm personally curious how Hivemind, how Paul's stuff actually achieves the
information getting into the system.

371
00:36:31,355 --> 00:36:39,355
Because that is, generally speaking, the problem with the prediction market is that,
sure, you can make a bet and you can say, oh, this is going to happen or that's
going to happen.

372
00:36:39,355 --> 00:36:47,355
But then it's a real-world event and somebody needs to then report the actual result
of the real-world event into the blockchain.

373
00:36:47,355 --> 00:36:50,355
Or there needs to be some kind of system that incentivizes this.

374
00:36:50,355 --> 00:36:51,355
Without it being horrible.

375
00:36:51,355 --> 00:36:54,355
Yeah, maybe this is a complex question.

376
00:36:54,355 --> 00:36:56,355
I don't know if there's like a short answer.

377
00:36:56,355 --> 00:36:57,355
Yeah, I don't know.

378
00:36:57,355 --> 00:37:04,355
I've tried, and unfortunately, I think it's my fault that – well, this is hard.

379
00:37:04,355 --> 00:37:05,355
Just lie a little bit.

380
00:37:05,355 --> 00:37:08,355
Just make it easier in a way where you're bending the truth.

381
00:37:08,355 --> 00:37:11,355
I live in a very – I've got to tell you guys.

382
00:37:11,355 --> 00:37:15,355
I live in a kind of really strange situation.

383
00:37:16,355 --> 00:37:27,355
It's a bizarre situation because I really do think that if we had this blockchain
prediction markets thing in the world, we could instantiate this idea of futarky.

384
00:37:27,355 --> 00:37:34,355
And I think that that would – first of all, that would mean a lot less people
getting angry about politics online.

385
00:37:34,355 --> 00:37:56,355
But it would also mean huge increase in global GDP growth and saving millions of
lives, hundreds of millions of lives possibly over a pretty short period of time and
greatly increasing the chance of success for our species survival and spreading to
the universe and other stuff.

386
00:37:56,355 --> 00:38:00,355
So I honestly think this idea is cosmically very important.

387
00:38:01,355 --> 00:38:04,355
The other funny thing though is that I try to explain it.

388
00:38:04,355 --> 00:38:19,355
I put so much effort into explaining the idea versus really just doing it because I
want to invite everyone in to the tent so that they can do it the right way and that
we can make this spaceship launch.

389
00:38:20,355 --> 00:38:28,355
And I try so much, and I give talks, and I have produced – if you go to
bitcoinhivemind.com, you can see I've produced ridiculous amounts of writing.

390
00:38:28,355 --> 00:38:32,355
I did read a lot of it, so thank you for that, Paul.

391
00:38:32,355 --> 00:38:34,355
Yes, you're welcome. Thank you for reading it.

392
00:38:34,355 --> 00:38:45,355
And I did all these things, and it's a very – it's like a legal gray area, so I had
to do all this other stuff that may become problematic.

393
00:38:45,355 --> 00:38:59,355
I mean I'm not as worried about that because, of course, this is the American – this
is the whole timeline of America is – I mean Rosa Parks was doing something illegal.

394
00:38:59,355 --> 00:39:01,355
The Stonewall rioters were doing something illegal.

395
00:39:01,355 --> 00:39:11,355
Everything is illegal until people's moral compass is recalibrated, and most of what
I've done is just explain things to people.

396
00:39:12,355 --> 00:39:19,355
But I live in this weird world where I really think this is important, and I've
really tried to explain it, but it's just – it's so difficult.

397
00:39:19,355 --> 00:39:21,355
And again, the explanations are all there.

398
00:39:21,355 --> 00:39:28,355
Robin Hanson has explained why is the low interest – why is the low demand in our
goods?

399
00:39:28,355 --> 00:39:40,355
It's well-known because the – well, it's well-known for prediction markets in
general, which is to say that they are different from markets for milk where there's
a lot of surplus.

400
00:39:40,355 --> 00:39:42,355
What in economics is called surplus?

401
00:39:43,355 --> 00:39:56,355
So when you go to the store and you buy a gallon of milk for $3 or whatever, you
want the milk more than you want $3, and the guy selling you the milk, he's going to
take a little profit.

402
00:39:56,355 --> 00:40:01,355
So he – the milk to him is worth less than $3, so you have actually an overlap.

403
00:40:02,355 --> 00:40:05,355
You have a big overlap, and that's called surplus.

404
00:40:05,355 --> 00:40:13,355
The guy who owns the milk store, his edge is called producer surplus, and your edge
is called consumer surplus, and you extract a lot.

405
00:40:13,355 --> 00:40:22,355
I mean think about how much you would pay if you had to for running water and for
electricity, and instead you only pay like whatever, $40 a month or whatever it is.

406
00:40:22,355 --> 00:40:29,355
But if you had to, you'd pay a lot for your internet connection and for other things
that you need to have.

407
00:40:30,355 --> 00:40:34,355
But the prices for them are low, and prediction markets aren't like that.

408
00:40:38,355 --> 00:40:48,355
So they require a kind of fuel, and I designed this into the – from the very
beginning, I designed this way of fueling them.

409
00:40:48,355 --> 00:40:53,355
Now of course you've got to get some money from somewhere, but – and I don't know.

410
00:40:53,355 --> 00:41:03,355
I'm at risk of just making this totally incomprehensible to everyone, but you can
actually pile all the markets in to one thing, which you can fuel them all at the
same time.

411
00:41:03,355 --> 00:41:12,355
So you can get away with like 10 cents worth of fuel for a lot of markets at once,
and obviously things will work better if there is – the more fuel, the better.

412
00:41:12,355 --> 00:41:16,355
But you need like a kind of – it's not enough to just make the markets.

413
00:41:16,355 --> 00:41:22,355
You need a big infrastructure in place where there's an incentive for people to pour
a lot of fuel in.

414
00:41:22,355 --> 00:41:25,355
So they need to be liquid markets basically.

415
00:41:25,355 --> 00:41:32,355
Yeah, so you can go on – I think it's Paddy Power and bet on a lot of different
stuff.

416
00:41:32,355 --> 00:41:34,355
So what makes –

417
00:41:34,355 --> 00:41:38,355
This is a problem on Intrade.com as well, the site that inspired me.

418
00:41:39,355 --> 00:41:46,355
That was a real world prediction market closed down in 2012 for a variety of
colorful reasons.

419
00:41:46,355 --> 00:41:52,355
So yeah, but we don't have them in the US because I guess they're somewhat illegal.

420
00:41:52,355 --> 00:41:54,355
Yeah, I can get into that in a second.

421
00:41:54,355 --> 00:42:03,355
But I was just going to say on Intrade you would have all these markets, and a lot
of them would have no value or low trading volumes or zero trading volumes.

422
00:42:03,355 --> 00:42:10,355
So there would just be this graveyard of dead markets, and it's very kind of – but
this is a known thing.

423
00:42:10,355 --> 00:42:19,355
So if your prediction market project is going to fail in that way, it really
shouldn't because Intrade already taught that lesson, and Robin Hanson explained it
in detail.

424
00:42:20,355 --> 00:42:34,355
I've tried to explain it that merely – this isn't like – you see, normally all you
need to do is let the people who make milk get in contact with the people who want
to buy milk, and then the market just makes itself.

425
00:42:34,355 --> 00:42:41,355
But with this, you need some fuel, and this has been explained, and so that's just
one thing.

426
00:42:42,355 --> 00:42:51,355
But then this is another thing that I've explained, and then it's just – again, I'm
sort of cursed to live in this bizarre world where I really am trying.

427
00:42:51,355 --> 00:43:10,355
It was originally my idea to just write this paper and then let a bunch of other
people do all of the hard work, fully acknowledging that they would get a lot of
credit for it, but also fully acknowledging that I would just be able to not do
anything and just relax and not have to do any work.

428
00:43:11,355 --> 00:43:33,355
But yeah, this is sort of – reality is not kind of working that way, and it seems as
though I'm going to have to produce the first alpha 0.1 version under my direct – me
doing it myself and with their direct kind of supervision.

429
00:43:33,355 --> 00:43:38,355
I don't know. I don't want it to be that way, but if you have any specific questions
…

430
00:43:38,355 --> 00:43:51,355
One project that comes to mind that was like that was Wasabi Wallet, where that was
something that was not – there was not a huge amount of interest in it until it
actually came into existence.

431
00:43:51,355 --> 00:43:58,355
People started using it. People liked it, and now there are a bunch of developers
spending time on it, so it kind of took off from there.

432
00:43:59,355 --> 00:44:08,355
I think part of the problem is that you have this very complex set of ideas that
people don't fully understand, so you kind of have to prove it to them and make it
work.

433
00:44:08,355 --> 00:44:15,355
Certainly. I think it's totally reasonable for people to be skeptical. I think
that's good.

434
00:44:16,355 --> 00:44:36,355
I do think that – yeah, it's very unfair to just say this is like Bitcoin because
they're both new and whatever, but what I would suggest is that you can look at when
Bitcoin was proposed, how negative the reaction was from the existing field of
experts on the cyberpunk mailing list.

435
00:44:37,355 --> 00:44:47,355
And so I think that anything that's truly new will be – which is weird because I
really don't think this is that new. It's a lot of old things.

436
00:44:47,355 --> 00:44:58,355
Again, I can point people to Hal Finney shilling conditional prediction markets for
them to be used in elections exactly the way I described, and that was like 2007.

437
00:44:58,355 --> 00:45:01,355
Making it work is new because it doesn't work currently.

438
00:45:02,355 --> 00:45:14,355
Yeah, I think – but yes, I do think – well, it's similar with Drivechain. I was
like this is so simple, but also that's turned out to be horribly understood.

439
00:45:14,355 --> 00:45:23,355
I don't think it's that simple, Paul. That's part of the problem. I have a hard time
understanding your ideas, and I do understand to a large degree now.

440
00:45:23,355 --> 00:45:34,355
And it is funny that I do. So I don't know. The error could be that I'm totally
wrong about everything and that I just am – I'm just like a delusional person who is
like – I mean that's possible.

441
00:45:34,355 --> 00:45:35,355
It's possible.

442
00:45:35,355 --> 00:45:36,355
Certainly.

443
00:45:36,355 --> 00:45:37,355
I disagree with you.

444
00:45:38,355 --> 00:45:49,355
Thanks for your support. I mean there are some cracks in that theory, which is that
certain people could understand Drivechain sort of immediately, including I think
Adam Back and Luke Jr.

445
00:45:49,355 --> 00:46:04,355
They were able to understand basically the gist of it, which is that whatever comes
back through this process is considered valid and that Adam Back in particular was
emphasizing the right new thing about it, which is that it's just very compressed
and very, very, very slow.

446
00:46:04,355 --> 00:46:18,355
So that even though anything that comes back goes, you have an obscene amount of
time to watch what comes back and react to it, and that is the idea in like a really
short sentence.

447
00:46:18,355 --> 00:46:24,355
So some people could figure it out, and I do get like random emails from people who
are like, oh yeah.

448
00:46:24,355 --> 00:46:30,355
So maybe I can try to translate a couple of these things that you're saying as in
like –

449
00:46:30,355 --> 00:46:34,355
But I don't know if we did. Did I derail everything that we were supposed to be
talking about?

450
00:46:34,355 --> 00:46:36,355
I don't know. I don't know.

451
00:46:36,355 --> 00:46:42,355
I think it's fine, but I think part of the problem is like – or not the problem, but
it is complex.

452
00:46:42,355 --> 00:46:54,355
So let me try with Drivechains to kind of like give a high-level overview that is
going to be the same thing that you said, but hopefully maybe it clicks with more
people because I just say it in a different way.

453
00:46:54,355 --> 00:47:14,355
Which I think with Drivechains, the short summary of it is basically that you're
trying to create a sidechain, meaning there's going to be another blockchain where
you can move Bitcoins from the mainchain, from the Bitcoin blockchain into this
sidechain, and also successfully moving back.

454
00:47:14,355 --> 00:47:18,355
And that part is kind of where things get tricky.

455
00:47:18,355 --> 00:47:26,355
So you have this system for sort of like merged mining where people put the headers
of the blocks of the sidechain into the Bitcoin blockchain.

456
00:47:26,355 --> 00:47:32,355
And you have this really smart – and I think that system seems to be pretty
flawless.

457
00:47:32,355 --> 00:47:38,355
It's a system where the miners, the Bitcoin miners do not actually have to know
what's inside of these sidechain blocks.

458
00:47:38,355 --> 00:47:40,355
So they don't have to do any of the verification.

459
00:47:40,355 --> 00:47:46,355
They just take the blocks from other block creators and they take the one that pays
the miners the most.

460
00:47:46,355 --> 00:47:58,355
And the peg-in mechanism is essentially just somebody sending Bitcoin into one of
these sidechains and that essentially makes these Bitcoins freeze on the Bitcoin
blockchain.

461
00:47:58,355 --> 00:48:14,355
And pegging them out requires – and that's what you were mentioning – requires this
process where basically the peg-out takes a period of like three months or up to six
months I think, even if things go particularly slowly.

462
00:48:14,355 --> 00:48:28,355
And during this period, essentially if there's anything that the miners are allowing
that shouldn't be allowed, so somebody is trying to peg out of a sidechain and
trying to get his Bitcoins back into the Bitcoin blockchain.

463
00:48:28,355 --> 00:48:32,355
And it's actually an invalid transaction according to the sidechain rules.

464
00:48:32,355 --> 00:48:54,355
Then the hope or the mechanism is that a subset of Bitcoin users is going to
basically do a UASF-style soft fork where if the miners actually allow for this
invalid transaction to happen, then this block will be rejected by these people.

465
00:48:54,355 --> 00:49:14,355
And then hopefully, because miners rather have these users not fork out of the
network and rather have the users be part of the system and still allow these
sidechains to be useful, they will listen to these users that are threatening to
basically reject this block.

466
00:49:14,355 --> 00:49:20,355
And they will actually allow only the peg-outs that are valid to occur.

467
00:49:21,355 --> 00:49:24,355
Is that accurate?

468
00:49:24,355 --> 00:49:27,355
I think – well, that was pretty good I think.

469
00:49:27,355 --> 00:49:34,355
I don't know if – I don't even know at this point what explanation will be clear to
people.

470
00:49:34,355 --> 00:49:42,355
There is something called the curse of knowledge that says once you learn something,
you can no longer identify with the students, and so you have less in common with
them.

471
00:49:42,355 --> 00:49:47,355
However, as time goes on, you become worse at explaining things that you know very
well.

472
00:49:47,355 --> 00:49:49,355
It doesn't rely on the UASF.

473
00:49:49,355 --> 00:49:54,355
I think the way I've tried to explain it now is I just say that it …

474
00:49:54,922 --> 00:50:09,922
I try to say, look, this is how it should work, and then I say – I just kind of ask
people to try to critique that, and then I just respond to the critiques
individually.

475
00:50:09,922 --> 00:50:12,922
I can give you some critiques if you want to give it a try.

476
00:50:13,922 --> 00:50:26,922
Well, I mean, I don't know if – yeah, I'd be happy to – no, I'm always happy to
answer any questions and critiques, and I have done so in ridiculous detail in
writing on drivechain.info.

477
00:50:26,922 --> 00:50:30,922
You can find this huge FAQ, and there's a critiques section.

478
00:50:30,922 --> 00:50:35,922
I think there are actually no critiques if you accept the assumptions, right?

479
00:50:35,922 --> 00:50:52,922
Because it's – the whole point is that the assumption is that either the majority of
miners is going to behave properly, or if they don't, they'll be forced to behave
properly through some kind of action by a subset of Bitcoin users.

480
00:50:52,922 --> 00:50:55,922
That is the basic security model, right?

481
00:50:55,922 --> 00:51:00,922
I think that that is what commonly is perceived as what it is.

482
00:51:00,922 --> 00:51:15,922
I think what I'm really trying to do is build a kind of lever or a magnifying glass
or something where the will of the users can be – even though the users are lazy and
don't have a lot of free time, and they can't look into everything.

483
00:51:16,922 --> 00:51:28,922
Through this kind of long delay and this making it very easy to audit because the
three- to six-month thing is just a 132-byte thing, and if you want to misbehave,
you have to construct it manually.

484
00:51:28,922 --> 00:51:32,922
But otherwise, it just automatically happens.

485
00:51:32,922 --> 00:51:34,922
It all happens correctly.

486
00:51:34,922 --> 00:51:51,922
What I'm trying to do is say that if – I'm really trying to say that the users are
in charge and the miners aren't, which is funny because that ends up being kind of
flipped around, and people represent the idea as saying the opposite.

487
00:51:51,922 --> 00:52:20,922
But really what I'm trying to say is that if a sidechain needs to be sort of closed
down or improperly withdrawn from, stolen from, then I'm saying that miners will
only ultimately be able to get away with that if the sidechain is bad because one
often overlooked point – even though I presented about it in 2016 for like four
hours – the sidechains aren't guaranteed to all be good.

488
00:52:20,922 --> 00:52:22,922
Some of them could be bad.

489
00:52:22,922 --> 00:52:41,922
Some of them could interfere with the peer-to-peer oracle, but some of them could
just be paying you to reorg the mainchain or to – if you had a sidechain that did
assets or which did names, you can't have there be a second Namecoin that redirects.

490
00:52:42,922 --> 00:52:44,922
Whatever you want to call it.

491
00:52:44,922 --> 00:52:54,922
If you had Bitcoin.com, you can't have – or Bitcoin.bit, if you remember the
Namecoin domains had this .bit thing where they could –

492
00:52:54,922 --> 00:52:56,922
Okay, I don't remember.

493
00:52:57,922 --> 00:53:10,922
So you had Bitcoin.bit, but then you can't have a second piece of software,
namecoin2, that is also a Namecoin software, but it points Bitcoin.bit somewhere
else.

494
00:53:10,922 --> 00:53:17,922
So colliding on the names is just harassment of the first sidechain.

495
00:53:17,922 --> 00:53:19,922
People can choose the chain to follow now.

496
00:53:19,922 --> 00:53:21,922
Yes, they can.

497
00:53:21,922 --> 00:53:24,922
But the whole point is that it should be pumping information.

498
00:53:24,922 --> 00:53:35,922
So when you consult the name – when you consult this system, it's supposed to be
telling you where to point your web browser, and when you buy a domain, it's
supposed to be giving you –

499
00:53:35,922 --> 00:53:37,922
Yeah, but you're still picking the system though.

500
00:53:37,922 --> 00:53:39,922
You're picking Namecoin or namecoin2.

501
00:53:39,922 --> 00:53:47,922
So there's still an initial choice, and from that choice flows the subsequent
direction where the domain takes you.

502
00:53:48,922 --> 00:53:57,922
That's true, but all I'm trying to say is that in principle, it's possible for the
different chains to harass each other or to at least be just pointless copies of
each other.

503
00:53:57,922 --> 00:54:08,922
And so actually, you want some of the chains – and I gave a giant presentation about
this if you want to be attacked by PowerPoint slides.

504
00:54:08,922 --> 00:54:09,922
You can watch it.

505
00:54:09,922 --> 00:54:13,922
It's somewhere on drivechain.info in the literature section.

506
00:54:13,922 --> 00:54:14,922
You can look it up.

507
00:54:14,922 --> 00:54:23,922
And I do demonstrate a number of ways in which different sidechains could attack
each other or the main chain.

508
00:54:23,922 --> 00:54:30,922
And so it's actually not desirable to keep every chain online a priori.

509
00:54:30,922 --> 00:54:38,922
They should be a little bit more like businesses in a free market where if they do
well, then you should want to keep them around.

510
00:54:38,922 --> 00:54:45,922
And if they do poorly, we should hope that they are evicted basically from the
Bitcoin crypto system.

511
00:54:45,922 --> 00:55:05,922
So let me ask you about this then because I think one of the claims or one of the
ways at least I see the security is that even if a minority likes a chain, they can
kind of entice miners to keep it by doing this UASF style kind of enforcement.

512
00:55:06,922 --> 00:55:15,922
But if the chain is somehow bad, but some people perceive it as good, like let's say
10% of Bitcoin users really like this chain.

513
00:55:15,922 --> 00:55:20,922
And then there's some 30% of Bitcoin users that thinks this chain is bad for
Bitcoin.

514
00:55:20,922 --> 00:55:24,922
And then there's maybe 60% that just doesn't care, doesn't pay attention.

515
00:55:24,922 --> 00:55:33,922
How does that work out considering that there's now this 10% minority that is
adamant on UASF?

516
00:55:33,922 --> 00:55:43,922
No, absolutely. I've referenced this. This is something I anticipated people would
ask about in the November 2015 post and I wrote about it.

517
00:55:43,922 --> 00:55:47,922
And unfortunately, very few people have made it that far.

518
00:55:47,922 --> 00:55:50,922
They said that immediately for the first few things.

519
00:55:50,922 --> 00:55:59,922
I know. I mean, what I mean is that when they write, when they object to the Drivechain, they don't even get to this question.

520
00:55:59,922 --> 00:56:02,922
They get hung up on something earlier on.

521
00:56:02,922 --> 00:56:08,922
Yeah, I think the general problem is that people don't accept that the UASF is just
a fundamental part of it.

522
00:56:08,922 --> 00:56:21,922
I will get to that. But the answer is that the miners must do – I mean we must
expect them to do and they in practice will do whatever makes them more money.

523
00:56:21,922 --> 00:56:32,922
So if having this sidechain around increases their transaction fee revenue and also
increases the market value of the coin, then we can expect it to stick around,
right?

524
00:56:33,922 --> 00:56:52,922
And so in fact passively, they should manage this portfolio of chains or software
features and they should just add things to this portfolio until they discover that
the one thing actually is dragging it down.

525
00:56:52,922 --> 00:57:03,922
It may – almost certainly everything that's active will add to transaction fees, but
if it's interfering with people too much, it would be lowering potentially the
market value of the coin.

526
00:57:03,922 --> 00:57:12,922
But doesn't that add a lot of subjectivity because now the miners have to kind of
study up on these chains and figure out that, oh, there's this loud percentage.

527
00:57:12,922 --> 00:57:16,922
It's kind of like take the big blocks versus small blocks.

528
00:57:17,922 --> 00:57:32,922
Yes, you're absolutely right, and I think this is a hangup that people kind of fall
into, which is that the world of mining is in a couple ways the opposite of the
world of running a full node.

529
00:57:33,922 --> 00:57:49,922
But a lot of people in particular in the original Blockstream October 2014 white
paper, they conflate them and they say we want it to be very easy to run a full node
and we don't want anyone to have a disadvantage in running a full node.

530
00:57:50,922 --> 00:57:56,922
And then they say a similar thing about mining, and they say we don't want anyone to
have an unfair advantage or this.

531
00:57:56,922 --> 00:58:04,922
But think about all the work that miners already do when they have to research chip
designs or how to get cheap power or other things.

532
00:58:04,922 --> 00:58:08,922
So they have to do a lot of work to be servants.

533
00:58:08,922 --> 00:58:11,922
But that's not something that people want miners to do.

534
00:58:11,922 --> 00:58:14,922
Ideally, we'd want the miners to not have to do that as well.

535
00:58:14,922 --> 00:58:16,922
Because we want the hash rate.

536
00:58:16,922 --> 00:58:18,922
The chip design to be figured out already.

537
00:58:18,922 --> 00:58:23,922
We want the hash rate to be – well, yes, obviously we could wave a magic wand and
then we'd have no problems at all.

538
00:58:23,922 --> 00:58:27,922
So you are making a problem that we'd rather not have worse.

539
00:58:27,922 --> 00:58:28,922
No, I don't think so.

540
00:58:28,922 --> 00:58:31,922
You're saying it's already a problem, so we might as well make it worse.

541
00:58:31,922 --> 00:58:33,922
No, I don't think it's a problem actually.

542
00:58:33,922 --> 00:58:34,922
This is what I'm saying.

543
00:58:34,922 --> 00:58:36,922
It's actually not a problem because think about this.

544
00:58:37,922 --> 00:58:57,922
If the NSA or whoever, Russia or the Chinese government, if they wanted to attack
Bitcoin, one avenue open to them is to produce a bunch of SHA-256 hardware and just
make the chain incomprehensible with a lot of reorgs or just fill it with empty
blocks or to do all these other 51% attack style things.

545
00:58:57,922 --> 00:59:02,922
And they will be doing their research into chip designs and cheap sources of power.

546
00:59:02,922 --> 00:59:04,922
They will be doing all of that.

547
00:59:05,922 --> 00:59:07,922
What we really want is symmetry.

548
00:59:07,922 --> 00:59:16,922
We can't have it be that there's some advantage that a government would have that
the regular Bitcoin network doesn't have.

549
00:59:16,922 --> 00:59:29,922
And so it's actually desirable for miners to be slaving away, trying every day,
thinking how can they get more hash rate using every ounce of creativity at their
disposal, every ounce of entrepreneurship.

550
00:59:29,922 --> 00:59:36,922
Do you mean it's a good thing in terms of sunk cost because it's difficult for a
government to then go in and do the same thing?

551
00:59:36,922 --> 00:59:38,922
Or what's the good thing about it?

552
00:59:38,922 --> 00:59:40,922
I'm not fully following yet.

553
00:59:40,922 --> 01:00:05,922
I think what Paul is saying is that if there's already an arms race in the private,
for lack of a better term, private mining market, then it's going to make it very
difficult for a state to come in and improve, selfishly improve on the method to
mine and then therefore try and take control of the chain.

554
01:00:05,922 --> 01:00:17,922
If you, and correct us if we're wrong here, but if you increase the complexity, only
the free market is going to figure out the most efficient way to navigate that
complexity?

555
01:00:17,922 --> 01:00:20,922
Is that good, Paul?

556
01:00:20,922 --> 01:00:22,922
Well, I didn't know about that last part.

557
01:00:22,922 --> 01:00:23,922
Can you explain that again?

558
01:00:23,922 --> 01:00:26,922
Certainly free people will be more creative.

559
01:00:27,922 --> 01:00:41,922
I think in this dynamic world where you have to constantly be improving your mining
chip designs and whatever, I actually do think the free market has a strong
advantage over some bureaucrats.

560
01:00:41,922 --> 01:00:43,922
Yeah, kind of.

561
01:00:43,922 --> 01:00:50,922
That is a libertarian trope that I would like to believe, and I think in isolation
that's true.

562
01:00:50,922 --> 01:00:59,922
But there is something that the state has that private miners don't have, and that
is unlimited money, which means they can buy as much electricity as they want more
or less.

563
01:00:59,922 --> 01:01:01,922
Well, I didn't know about that last part.

564
01:01:01,922 --> 01:01:02,922
Yeah, I think you're right.

565
01:01:02,922 --> 01:01:03,922
They have an advantage.

566
01:01:03,922 --> 01:01:04,922
They have more money.

567
01:01:05,922 --> 01:01:11,922
The interesting thing is that they would have to agree.

568
01:01:11,922 --> 01:01:32,922
It's a known psychological sort of bias that you perceive your own team as being
dangerously divided and that your adversaries are all unified in their purpose and
that this is a problem and that they're better at teamwork than you are.

569
01:01:32,922 --> 01:01:38,922
Obviously, people in the government – there's huge disagreement.

570
01:01:38,922 --> 01:01:50,922
We see it playing out right now with the election season coming up, but also inside
the bureaucracies, there's all these people with budgets, and they all want the
budgets for their own pet projects.

571
01:01:50,922 --> 01:01:53,922
So I don't think it's quite as easy as just saying one guy with infinite money.

572
01:01:54,922 --> 01:02:19,922
Here's another thing that I'd like to bring up, which is that defense against some
adversary with infinite resources is not possible, but I think there's also a sense
in which it's not even desirable because it kind of – it is a kind of rejection of
the whole idea of game theory, which is like how to give yourself the edge.

573
01:02:20,922 --> 01:02:24,922
Chess, you have an equal side, and one person has got to get the upper hand and win.

574
01:02:24,922 --> 01:02:29,922
But if someone has infinite resources, it's kind of like why even think about it at
all?

575
01:02:29,922 --> 01:02:31,922
Just surrender on turn one.

576
01:02:31,922 --> 01:02:34,922
So it's not quite that easy.

577
01:02:34,922 --> 01:02:45,922
Definitely, to speak more practically about what you're saying is that the NSA
doesn't have infinite resources, but it does have this giant data center in Utah,
for example, and it has these other things.

578
01:02:45,922 --> 01:02:52,922
You could get like the Three Gorges Dam in China or something and harness all this
power maybe.

579
01:02:53,922 --> 01:03:05,922
And that is why we need all the advantages that we can get, which is to say we need
people to be thinking really hard about how can I make efficient Charter 56 chips.

580
01:03:06,922 --> 01:03:18,922
Those people are thinking about how can I stop people from coming and stealing these
chips and kind of civil asset forfeituring these chips.

581
01:03:18,922 --> 01:03:28,922
That's even better for the defending Bitcoin team, and the attackers could be the
Russian government or the Chinese government or the U.S. government.

582
01:03:28,922 --> 01:03:29,922
So take your pick.

583
01:03:29,922 --> 01:03:37,922
If you love a certain government, there's some other government out there that you
probably don't love, and so you want to defend against all of them at once.

584
01:03:37,922 --> 01:03:43,922
And there's also other things like stuff that China and Japan have like a sort of
rivalry.

585
01:03:43,922 --> 01:03:49,922
So if China loves something, then maybe Japan hates it, but if China turns on it,
then suddenly the Japanese government will love it.

586
01:03:50,922 --> 01:04:03,922
So it's not quite as cut and dry, but I think this does go to the point where we
actually want it to be – we want the mining to be – we want people to work very
hard.

587
01:04:03,922 --> 01:04:09,922
And we don't – when the difficulty goes up, people celebrate usually.

588
01:04:10,922 --> 01:04:12,922
I mean it depends on why it goes up.

589
01:04:12,922 --> 01:04:18,922
I guess it's always better, like better ASICs or more miner fees.

590
01:04:19,922 --> 01:04:26,922
And that's a sense in which it's become more difficult to mine, but the cost of
running a full node is unchanged.

591
01:04:26,922 --> 01:04:30,922
And that is why it's quite desirable.

592
01:04:30,922 --> 01:04:41,922
People should be laser focused on – this is partially why I wrote a giant post in
September 2015 about measuring decentralization because there was this big debate
about the block size.

593
01:04:41,922 --> 01:04:49,922
And the central issue came down to this idea of surrendering Bitcoin's essential
property.

594
01:04:49,922 --> 01:05:04,922
And I said that this property could be summarized with the metric of how difficult
it is for you to run a full node or rather start a new one up from scratch and
conjure one out of thin air and have it defend you against financial fraud.

595
01:05:05,922 --> 01:05:08,922
And people should be laser focused on that.

596
01:05:08,922 --> 01:05:26,922
But I think people are so focused on that that they – I think they kind of have
overdone it and they don't really realize that sidechains actually sidestep that
problem completely where you have these all different pieces of software that are
all optional.

597
01:05:26,922 --> 01:05:32,922
And so true, if you had to run every sidechain node, it would be getting more and
more and more expensive.

598
01:05:32,922 --> 01:05:35,922
But you don't. You don't have to run every – you can only run the ones that you
want.

599
01:05:35,922 --> 01:05:38,922
And so in that case, it actually keeps them quite cheap.

600
01:05:38,922 --> 01:05:44,922
And as you were saying earlier about Blind Merged Mining, the miners don't need to
run – the mining pool operators are doing the software.

601
01:05:44,922 --> 01:05:48,922
That's the other thing is that this is just another example of specialization.

602
01:05:48,922 --> 01:05:53,922
So you have hashers doing the SHA-256, but then you have mining pool operators.

603
01:05:54,922 --> 01:06:03,922
Again, they already specialize on attracting clients, customers, and they run full
nodes and they handle the upgrades.

604
01:06:03,922 --> 01:06:11,922
Most of the hashers, these people who run the hardware, they just point – they have
like a stratum thing and they see nothing.

605
01:06:11,922 --> 01:06:13,922
They don't even know what's going on.

606
01:06:13,922 --> 01:06:15,922
They don't do anything about transaction inclusion.

607
01:06:15,922 --> 01:06:16,922
They have no idea.

608
01:06:16,922 --> 01:06:17,922
Can't see anything.

609
01:06:17,922 --> 01:06:19,922
That's part of the conversation about better hash.

610
01:06:19,922 --> 01:06:28,922
Now, so it would be only these specialists, these mining pool operators, and they
already do sort of a similar thing where they will recalculate.

611
01:06:28,922 --> 01:06:31,922
Well, what's the most profitable SHA-256 coin?

612
01:06:31,922 --> 01:06:37,922
And they re-divert hash rate on that, and they do merge mining with Namecoin and
these other things and sell the coin.

613
01:06:37,922 --> 01:06:44,922
So they already compete, and the fact that they would have to do more I think is
good.

614
01:06:44,922 --> 01:06:46,922
It represents an avenue of progress.

615
01:06:46,922 --> 01:06:55,922
We wouldn't want – stability sometimes means perfect in the bad sense that it cannot
be improved anymore.

616
01:06:55,922 --> 01:07:11,922
But we want to live in a world where things improve, but also the improvement vector
is just another advantage that I think that the liberty movement has over the bad
guys.

617
01:07:11,922 --> 01:07:20,922
The bad guys are – to steal some stuff from David Deutsch, one of my favorite
people, the enemies of civilization are wrong.

618
01:07:20,922 --> 01:07:36,922
And so they must be kind of – they have a strange relationship with the truth and
with criticism, which is to say they avoid looking too carefully at the truth, and
they avoid self-criticism.

619
01:07:37,922 --> 01:07:45,922
And so they are slower to improve their ideas, and the good guys are always faster
to improve their ideas.

620
01:07:45,922 --> 01:07:49,922
And so we want to live in a world where stuff improves so quickly.

621
01:07:49,922 --> 01:07:54,922
I mean I think that's part of the only reason that – to digress just a little bit,
one last digression.

622
01:07:54,922 --> 01:08:00,922
Part of the only reason that technology got off the ground – and by technology I
mean of course personal computing and the internet.

623
01:08:00,922 --> 01:08:04,922
It's just that it's so difficult for these other people to understand.

624
01:08:04,922 --> 01:08:14,922
Crazy congressmen, but also like crazy religious leaders who would have probably
shouted it all down if they knew about online dating and all this other stuff.

625
01:08:14,922 --> 01:08:21,922
But just no one – none of the older adults could really understand technology, and
that is how it turned out.

626
01:08:22,922 --> 01:08:26,922
But anyway, that digressed a bunch of points, so I want to make sure we didn't skip
anything and go back.

627
01:08:26,922 --> 01:08:35,922
The original sort of point of digression was where I brought up this idea that you
should care a lot about the full node being cheap.

628
01:08:35,922 --> 01:08:42,922
Yes, but I say you actually shouldn't care about how difficult it is to mine, and in
fact you want it to be very difficult.

629
01:08:42,922 --> 01:08:53,922
Because you want a process in place that deletes all the inefficient miners
ruthlessly, so that it would converge to optimally efficient miners as fast as
possible.

630
01:08:53,922 --> 01:09:06,922
And they already have to do a wide variety of things, such as improve their
software, possibly merge mine other coins like Namecoin, which they used to do.

631
01:09:06,922 --> 01:09:08,922
I think some of them still do it.

632
01:09:08,922 --> 01:09:17,922
And they need to seek out – the hashers need to seek out cheap sources of power and
places where they have better cooling and better property rights or some different
mix.

633
01:09:17,922 --> 01:09:21,922
And so this is really no different from that.

634
01:09:22,922 --> 01:09:29,922
Yeah, so I'm still kind of on the side of thinking that mining should be as simple
as possible.

635
01:09:29,922 --> 01:09:39,922
So all those things are true, but I think it would be ideal if literally anybody
could just mine by sticking something into a plug and starting to mine.

636
01:09:39,922 --> 01:09:41,922
Obviously it doesn't work like that.

637
01:09:41,922 --> 01:09:43,922
You know, that is – but you see, here's the thing.

638
01:09:43,922 --> 01:09:46,922
That is already the case to some extent.

639
01:09:46,922 --> 01:09:50,922
If you're willing to trust the pool, then that's already the case.

640
01:09:50,922 --> 01:09:53,922
Well, I mean you need cheap electricity, so there is more complexity there.

641
01:09:53,922 --> 01:09:57,922
Oh, well, you just said that someone could mine.

642
01:09:57,922 --> 01:10:04,922
But see, now you're going to run into a problem with your own argument I think
because you said, I just want anyone to be able to mine.

643
01:10:04,922 --> 01:10:08,922
Okay, but you accept that anyone could mine.

644
01:10:08,922 --> 01:10:12,922
Just maybe they would be at a tremendous disadvantage profitability-wise.

645
01:10:12,922 --> 01:10:16,922
Yeah, I'm just saying it's not easy, but it should be as easy as possible.

646
01:10:17,922 --> 01:10:24,922
The way the difficulty adjustments work is that eventually you only have the optimal
people left.

647
01:10:24,922 --> 01:10:26,922
All the other people will be deleted.

648
01:10:26,922 --> 01:10:30,922
Every two weeks, half of the bottom half are being deleted.

649
01:10:30,922 --> 01:10:37,922
So what you're really saying is I wish I could live in a world where everyone was
the optimal miner or the optimal mining configuration.

650
01:10:38,922 --> 01:10:46,922
I think you're right. That would be kind of cool, but I'm not sure what it would
really imply about physics.

651
01:10:46,922 --> 01:10:49,922
I think I get your argument now.

652
01:10:49,922 --> 01:10:58,922
It's basically no matter how much we try, you'll always get some kind of miner that
has this optimum situation.

653
01:10:58,922 --> 01:11:02,922
And because of that, you can't really get around it.

654
01:11:02,922 --> 01:11:05,922
I think it's not hopeless.

655
01:11:06,922 --> 01:11:16,922
Yes, but instead of going for total egalitarian equanimity of having everyone be the
same, you can at least retreat to symmetry.

656
01:11:16,922 --> 01:11:28,922
You can say there's nothing that the Russian government can't do that the free
market couldn't also do if you gave it more time.

657
01:11:28,922 --> 01:11:30,922
And it is doing all these things.

658
01:11:30,922 --> 01:11:40,922
The free market can form a corporation, which is kind of like a provisional
government light where it builds up all these people with officers.

659
01:11:40,922 --> 01:11:46,922
And they can control huge amounts of money, and they can buy a huge amount of land
and build a huge data center.

660
01:11:46,922 --> 01:11:57,922
So the giant Bitmain data center or whatever is a kind of mirror, at least the way I
see it, of the Utah data center that was built by the NSA.

661
01:11:57,922 --> 01:12:00,922
It's a kind of shadow.

662
01:12:04,922 --> 01:12:09,922
All right. I think we kind of got a hold off.

663
01:12:09,922 --> 01:12:15,922
I don't know. I feel bad for both the two listeners who still have to follow this.

664
01:12:15,922 --> 01:12:31,922
I'll ask you one more final question or concern that might be related to Drivechains here, which is that the sidechain could also potentially hard fork or there
could potentially be an issue.

665
01:12:31,922 --> 01:12:37,922
Imagine that Ethereum was a sidechain of Bitcoin, a Drivechain.

666
01:12:37,922 --> 01:12:40,922
And now the DAO happens on Ethereum.

667
01:12:40,922 --> 01:12:52,922
How would Drivechains, how would this system respond to that where you have a group
of people that wants to hard fork the sidechain?

668
01:12:52,922 --> 01:12:56,922
And this could be enforced on the Bitcoin layer essentially.

669
01:12:57,922 --> 01:13:00,922
Well, yes, this is the – people are correct.

670
01:13:00,922 --> 01:13:09,922
Their rights to be worried about – well, they're not right about that, but they are
right in principle to be worried about a kind of contamination from the sidechain to
the mainchain.

671
01:13:09,922 --> 01:13:22,922
And that's really the only thing that you should be worried about at all because
once that problem is addressed there, then everyone should be happy about sidechains
because they can't harm anything.

672
01:13:22,922 --> 01:13:40,922
And I think that actually that criterion is already met, and what I mean is that the
sidechain handles hard forks pretty well already, which is to say that if – well,
I'm not sure exactly what I want to explain first because the – but yeah.

673
01:13:40,922 --> 01:13:54,922
Yeah, I think if the sidechain wants to hard fork, it basically won't work because
you'll end up with two different pieces of software that will be reporting back two
different strings of the crucial 32 bytes.

674
01:13:54,922 --> 01:14:08,922
And so neither of them will ever win through over the three-month game, and so then
they'll just like – but what would really happen in practice is just that the hard
fork would be ignored and it would be dismissed as an irrelevant piece of software,

675
01:14:08,922 --> 01:14:11,922
which is basically the way I think that hard forks should work.

676
01:14:11,922 --> 01:14:20,922
If you really want a hard fork, what you should just do is you should just add a
second sidechain that has different properties, and then you could have Ethereum
version one, and then Ethereum version two.

677
01:14:20,922 --> 01:14:23,922
You could have Ethereum classic and Ethereum metallic or something.

678
01:14:23,922 --> 01:14:28,922
But what you asked was actually quite sort of a different question, which is imagine
the sidechain has some problem.

679
01:14:28,922 --> 01:14:29,922
Yeah.

680
01:14:29,922 --> 01:14:35,922
The sidechain is allowed to reorganize without affecting the mainchain.

681
01:14:36,922 --> 01:14:46,922
It's a little slow because you still get one block per thing, but they could go back
and unwind the chain sort of – what was it?

682
01:14:46,922 --> 01:14:53,922
Binance or whoever was doing that, getting in trouble with suggesting that that
could be possible.

683
01:14:53,922 --> 01:14:57,922
So you could do that, and one reason why that would be –

684
01:14:58,728 --> 01:15:25,728
again, I think a lot of this stuff is kind of – it should be code as law. That's
what's pitched, and in the long run, building up that – But I do want to ask, is it
impossible to hard fork on Drivechains? I don't think it is, right? I think it's not
impossible. What you would do is you'd basically just delete the – you can overwrite
a slot, so you'd basically just – it'd be the same thing as –

685
01:15:25,728 --> 01:15:37,728
there's this fixed number of slots, which is not really a constraint because you can
add more or you can have sidechains of sidechains, so it doesn't really mean
anything.

686
01:15:37,728 --> 01:15:42,728
But there's one slot for one specific chain, and now two chains want to use that
slot.

687
01:15:42,728 --> 01:15:47,728
All the money goes into a box, and then some of the money is coming out of the box
some of the time. There's only one box.

688
01:15:48,728 --> 01:16:01,728
The box – so if you hard fork, you're basically trying to say two different things
about what is supposed to be happening when money comes out of this box.

689
01:16:01,728 --> 01:16:13,728
So the box has labels, which refer to – there's no way to guarantee this, which is
why I call them labels, which is a good way of describing it.

690
01:16:13,728 --> 01:16:22,728
But the box has these labels, and you can very slowly, over six months, you can
delete the – you can overwrite the labels.

691
01:16:22,728 --> 01:16:30,728
So basically what I'm imagining there is that you use all the 256 slots, but there's
a sidechain that has no Bitcoin in it, and you want to reuse it.

692
01:16:30,728 --> 01:16:36,728
So you could do that. This would be a very foolish type thing.

693
01:16:36,728 --> 01:16:45,728
But there might be a situation in which you have to. For example, if the software
forks itself, and it's just incompatible with – so everybody runs the same software.

694
01:16:45,728 --> 01:16:52,728
But for some reason, 32-bit systems do something else than 64-bit systems, and now
suddenly you have a disagreement.

695
01:16:52,728 --> 01:17:03,728
Absolutely. Very important. Excellent. Well, actually, the label does address some
of that because it does – there's space there for you to put the hash of the tarball
and other things like that.

696
01:17:04,728 --> 01:17:11,728
But you're right. There could always be – the sidechain could just be a total
nonsense piece of software that just behaves utterly randomly.

697
01:17:11,728 --> 01:17:14,728
Yeah, it could be designed to fork.

698
01:17:14,728 --> 01:17:26,728
Yeah, exactly. Right. And what will happen then is just that it's going to be very,
very, very difficult for people to figure out which 32-bytes is the real 32-bytes
when you want to process withdrawals.

699
01:17:26,728 --> 01:17:33,728
And so if the miners then want to steal from the sidechain, there will really be no
basis for anyone to even say that they are stealing.

700
01:17:33,728 --> 01:17:49,728
And this is what – that is the case where the whole thing – if the sidechain is very
badly designed, it's likely to – certainly, it's likely to be very, very difficult
that anyone would ever get any money out of it.

701
01:17:49,728 --> 01:17:52,728
Back out of it, it would become like a one-way peg.

702
01:17:53,728 --> 01:18:08,728
And if there are any improper withdrawals, sort of thefts, then it's much less
likely that anyone would be sympathetic to this or care, which is to say affecting
the BTC price or affecting people's willingness to use other sidechains.

703
01:18:08,728 --> 01:18:10,728
All right.

704
01:18:11,728 --> 01:18:25,728
I think it's not quite – I mean we want it to be the case that the people who design
the sidechain have freedom to do what they think is best and not just what someone
else thinks is best.

705
01:18:25,728 --> 01:18:31,728
They should be the director of their own movie or whatever.

706
01:18:31,728 --> 01:18:33,728
They should be running the show, and they're free.

707
01:18:33,728 --> 01:18:40,728
With that freedom comes the possibility of disaster, and that's just the way things
are.

708
01:18:40,728 --> 01:18:44,728
So how do people react to the disaster?

709
01:18:44,728 --> 01:18:47,728
They may do some kind of hard fork.

710
01:18:47,728 --> 01:18:53,728
I think in practice, they would have to do – the easiest thing for them to do – they
could do many things, I just have to say.

711
01:18:53,728 --> 01:18:59,728
So this is kind of a challenge when talking about sidechains is that a lot of things
are possible.

712
01:18:59,728 --> 01:19:05,728
And when we talk about that, it's a separate issue from contaminating the mainchain.

713
01:19:05,728 --> 01:19:19,728
So unfortunately, there's many issues that have all branched off, and they're all
kind of – but what I would do is I would do something more like what we did during
the March 2013 Bitcoin fork incident.

714
01:19:19,728 --> 01:19:26,728
Where someone patched over a mistake, and then the chain went back, and it did
reorganize.

715
01:19:26,728 --> 01:19:28,728
You said, look, here's what we're going to do.

716
01:19:28,728 --> 01:19:33,728
Everyone downgrade or upgrade to this patched version that bans this new thing.

717
01:19:33,728 --> 01:19:42,728
And then the sidechain would passively sort of go back in time, and it would
experience a reorganization local to the sidechain.

718
01:19:42,728 --> 01:19:43,728
You understand?

719
01:19:43,728 --> 01:19:44,728
The sidechain blocks would reorganize.

720
01:19:44,728 --> 01:19:46,728
The mainchain blocks would not reorganize.

721
01:19:47,728 --> 01:19:57,728
So that would be, I think, the most prudent course of action, and it happens to be
one where the mainchain doesn't necessarily even notice that anything has happened
whatsoever.

722
01:19:57,728 --> 01:20:06,728
And certainly the reorganization there would be not enough time to interfere with
any of the three-month-long withdrawal things.

723
01:20:06,728 --> 01:20:11,728
So people would not – potentially not even notice whatsoever.

724
01:20:11,728 --> 01:20:17,728
What you're really asking is, can something go wrong in the sidechain such that the
mainchain is affected?

725
01:20:17,728 --> 01:20:23,728
But that actually brings us closer to what I was trying to say earlier about how
this is a special zone.

726
01:20:23,728 --> 01:20:28,728
And this zone, you only have to check in with it once every three to six months.

727
01:20:28,728 --> 01:20:30,728
And so –

728
01:20:30,728 --> 01:20:34,728
I think rather the problem is that the check-in is minor control.

729
01:20:34,728 --> 01:20:40,728
So if the miners check in on this Ethereum DAO thing, and they're like, oh, what's
going on?

730
01:20:40,728 --> 01:20:42,728
You're trying to hard fork this.

731
01:20:42,728 --> 01:20:45,728
You're saying there's consensus, but there doesn't really seem to be consensus.

732
01:20:45,728 --> 01:21:00,728
And now it's the miners who get the final call as to which of these chains to –
whether Ethereum Classic is going to be the one that gets to peg out or whether
Ethereum is the one that gets to peg out.

733
01:21:00,728 --> 01:21:02,728
They're the final people that get the call.

734
01:21:02,728 --> 01:21:08,728
Actually, the funny thing is, in the case of the reorg and under-Blind Merged Mining,
that's not the case, right?

735
01:21:08,728 --> 01:21:19,728
Because people would be bidding out – they would just be paying to – they'd
basically be paying to get their blocks mined on layer one.

736
01:21:19,728 --> 01:21:29,728
And so they would just become a bid-off, and then actually it would be the user's
transaction fees would passively divert that river one way or the other.

737
01:21:29,728 --> 01:21:30,728
I see.

738
01:21:30,728 --> 01:21:31,728
That's in the reorg case.

739
01:21:31,728 --> 01:21:33,728
Which of these forks gets more fees?

740
01:21:33,728 --> 01:21:51,728
There could be – yes, that would literally just be the thing that ultimately causes
old Blind Merged Mining blocks to be referenced, like the little arrow pointing back
to them and then say, actually, we think this would be better.

741
01:21:51,728 --> 01:21:54,728
And that would be done totally by the users in the Blind Merged Mining case.

742
01:21:55,728 --> 01:22:08,728
In practice, I do think that there would be mining pools that would run probably all
the software because it's a very small – software is a very small cost relative to
all this other stuff that they're doing, and they already run custom mining
software.

743
01:22:08,728 --> 01:22:10,728
It depends on what kind of sidechain you're running. It could be something really
fancy.

744
01:22:11,728 --> 01:22:38,728
I have – yeah, some people do discuss, and I make fun of it as a sort of
hypothetical ESPN 4K broadcasting sidechain that is extremely – that's a separate
point, but I'd like to bring it up temporarily, which is that I think there is
actually a limit on how expensive the node can be to run because regular users have
to run it for free.

745
01:22:39,728 --> 01:22:51,728
And so people wonder about will miners be able to run this software if they're only
compensated in a little bit of transaction fees or in a lot of transaction fees.

746
01:22:51,728 --> 01:22:57,728
The regular users are going to have to be running this software, and they don't get
any transaction fees.

747
01:22:57,728 --> 01:23:00,728
They pay the transaction fees, so it has to be manageable enough for them.

748
01:23:00,728 --> 01:23:03,728
So I think in practice, there actually is a kind of limit.

749
01:23:04,728 --> 01:23:09,728
I guess if you can't run the node, then miners can steal without anybody objecting
to it because nobody can verify.

750
01:23:09,728 --> 01:23:11,728
Exactly. No one would know. No one would know.

751
01:23:11,728 --> 01:23:32,728
The point is to make it very auditable and say, look, they've got to bring
everything to court on day one in the form of a 32-byte summary, and then from
there, that is the most sensitive to refutation because it's very easy for people to
highlight exactly where in this block this didn't go the way it should and this says
it should be something else.

752
01:23:32,728 --> 01:23:40,728
And so you have a very long time for any errors to be detected and be sort of
passively magnified.

753
01:23:40,728 --> 01:23:46,728
Certainly, again, everyone running a sidechain node will know immediately as soon as
a theft is attempted.

754
01:23:46,728 --> 01:23:52,728
People who merely run layer one, they won't know unless someone else tells them.

755
01:23:52,728 --> 01:23:55,728
And even if someone else tells them, they won't necessarily care.

756
01:23:56,728 --> 01:24:03,728
But we digressed a little bit because I was going to say something before I said, I
don't remember where we lost this thread now.

757
01:24:03,728 --> 01:24:07,728
Well, I think that's probably a good place to put a pin in that.

758
01:24:07,728 --> 01:24:08,728
Yes, maybe.

759
01:24:08,728 --> 01:24:24,728
I think we probably will not be able to get to any more news items, but I definitely
want to get to the listener question and to our lightning round before we wrap up
here because I think the listeners will enjoy these less arcane topics.

760
01:24:24,728 --> 01:24:30,728
So so this this week's listener question comes from Cameron.

761
01:24:30,728 --> 01:24:32,728
He emailed us and he had a bunch of questions.

762
01:24:32,728 --> 01:24:34,728
I think we're going to spread some of these out.

763
01:24:34,728 --> 01:24:41,728
But he said, if BTC wasn't around, what would each of you be doing your dream job as
kids?

764
01:24:41,728 --> 01:24:44,728
So I think I think we should let Paul begin for us.

765
01:24:44,728 --> 01:24:48,728
Paul, what would you be doing if Bitcoin had never come into being?

766
01:24:49,728 --> 01:24:59,728
Well, I think probably I would end up in academia because I was sort of on the
trajectory and was literally hired out of it by Bitcoin.

767
01:24:59,728 --> 01:25:04,728
So that's pretty. And then, you know, I'd always been like a studious.

768
01:25:04,728 --> 01:25:06,728
And so I think that's my guess.

769
01:25:06,728 --> 01:25:08,728
Dream job as a kid.

770
01:25:08,728 --> 01:25:12,728
You know, I did. You know, I always did like science and computer.

771
01:25:12,728 --> 01:25:16,728
So it may it may already have been.

772
01:25:16,728 --> 01:25:20,728
I don't know. That's a hard thing to say, you know, because what is your kid?

773
01:25:20,728 --> 01:25:31,728
I think my younger self knew that it shouldn't it shouldn't take itself too
seriously and it should defer to its older self's judgment.

774
01:25:31,728 --> 01:25:35,728
But, yeah, I think scientists was like a dream job, I think, probably.

775
01:25:35,728 --> 01:25:38,728
And I think I do kind of basically do something like that.

776
01:25:38,728 --> 01:25:45,728
I'm just imagining you walking up to your like eight year old self and being like,
look, kid, painting's not going to do it.

777
01:25:45,728 --> 01:25:49,728
We're we're doing we're doing decentralized prediction markets.

778
01:25:49,728 --> 01:25:52,728
You just need to get on board. You need to give up the dream.

779
01:25:52,728 --> 01:25:56,728
And I would love to, you know, I would love to be like a dream job as an adult.

780
01:25:56,728 --> 01:26:03,728
If you could just magically obtain skills, I would love to be like an orchestra
conductor or a concert pianist or something.

781
01:26:03,728 --> 01:26:06,728
I think that would be a really fun dream job as an adult.

782
01:26:06,728 --> 01:26:12,728
If you could just will these skills into existence and you would need to practice
like 12 hours a day.

783
01:26:12,728 --> 01:26:16,728
And it's like, how does someone even become an orchestra conductor? Like, I don't
even know.

784
01:26:16,728 --> 01:26:19,728
I don't even know. It's a very strange career path, I'm sure.

785
01:26:19,728 --> 01:26:32,728
But Ruben, what would you be doing? Oh, well, I think I'd be more focused on
programming because that was this thing that I was.

786
01:26:32,728 --> 01:26:42,728
Doing a lot right before I was learning about Bitcoin, so I think I'd be probably a
more professional programmer than I am now.

787
01:26:42,728 --> 01:26:45,728
I'm kind of a hobby programmer at the moment. That's interesting.

788
01:26:45,728 --> 01:26:56,728
It's interesting that. Becoming part of this new fangled tech actually made you less
technical.

789
01:26:57,728 --> 01:27:00,728
I mean, I specialized, yeah.

790
01:27:00,728 --> 01:27:06,728
I was going to say, in a programming environment, it's kind of interesting that it
worked out that way.

791
01:27:06,728 --> 01:27:12,728
I got sucked up into the Bitcoin rabbit hole and there were a lot of interesting
things to learn.

792
01:27:12,728 --> 01:27:15,728
And I think that detracted probably from the programming aspect.

793
01:27:15,728 --> 01:27:22,728
But at the same time, the one thing I'm not really taking into account is that I had
a desire to do something more social.

794
01:27:23,728 --> 01:27:28,728
And that is, for me now, the Bitcoin meetup.

795
01:27:28,728 --> 01:27:35,728
And I guess I would have had to, if Bitcoin wasn't around, I would have had to have
found something else to do that is social as well.

796
01:27:35,728 --> 01:27:37,728
So I'm not sure what that would have been. Right.

797
01:27:37,728 --> 01:27:46,728
Brian? I mean, when I was a kid, I always wanted to be like an army officer, army
man.

798
01:27:46,728 --> 01:27:52,728
So I guess I kind of got to do that a little bit and getting to be a pilot.

799
01:27:52,728 --> 01:27:58,728
But. Yeah, so I guess I'd say that was my dream job.

800
01:27:58,728 --> 01:28:01,728
What would I be doing when I was a kid anyway?

801
01:28:01,728 --> 01:28:04,728
What would I be doing if Bitcoin wasn't around?

802
01:28:04,728 --> 01:28:10,728
I don't know. I might would have stayed and just kept being a pilot.

803
01:28:10,728 --> 01:28:12,728
I don't know. I still like it. I miss it a lot.

804
01:28:12,728 --> 01:28:21,728
So it was a fun job. But, you know, there's the leaving the family and the moral
issues.

805
01:28:21,728 --> 01:28:34,728
Right. Yeah. Well, for me as a kid, I was always tossed between being a voice actor
or being a painter.

806
01:28:34,728 --> 01:28:38,728
But I was never actually any good at painting, but I just thought it'd be a cool job
or being a chemist.

807
01:28:39,728 --> 01:28:48,728
Because I thought all that I thought the only thing chemists did all day was create
like volcanoes, like science experiment volcanoes.

808
01:28:48,728 --> 01:28:53,728
I'm like, well, that would be fun to do that all day. Like, that sounds like fun.

809
01:28:53,728 --> 01:29:00,728
And there was one other thing that I wanted to be. But. Oh, man.

810
01:29:00,728 --> 01:29:05,728
If Bitcoin wasn't around. Yeah, I should have thought about this a little bit more.

811
01:29:05,728 --> 01:29:08,728
But I was more thinking about what I was wanting to be as a kid.

812
01:29:08,728 --> 01:29:26,728
I think I think I would probably. Be I would try and I would try a lot harder to be
in the video game space, because that is really my other my other love is is video
games.

813
01:29:26,728 --> 01:29:31,728
So I hope the whole culture that's that's probably what I would be doing or I'd be
trying to do anyway.

814
01:29:32,728 --> 01:29:36,728
So that does it for the listener question. Thank you, Cameron, for asking that.

815
01:29:36,728 --> 01:29:38,728
And we'll try and get to your other questions in the in the coming weeks.

816
01:29:38,728 --> 01:29:41,728
But I thought it'd be interesting to ask that one to Paul.

817
01:29:41,728 --> 01:29:46,728
And that brings us to our price analysis section this week.

818
01:29:46,728 --> 01:29:52,728
Number goes sideways. So just boring, boring old sideways prices.

819
01:29:52,728 --> 01:29:57,728
Such a boring, boring week. I was going to say when I was very erratically.

820
01:29:57,728 --> 01:30:06,728
It did. It did go sideways erratically. You know, we were going to talk about the
Trump tweet and the the today's Steve Mnuchin press conference.

821
01:30:06,728 --> 01:30:10,728
And then I say his name. I don't know. I don't know.

822
01:30:10,728 --> 01:30:14,728
People are calling him ass munching lately.

823
01:30:16,728 --> 01:30:26,728
But it is interesting. One thing I found really interesting about the the up and
down and then on average sideways movement of the Bitcoin price was when Trump
tweeted.

824
01:30:26,728 --> 01:30:33,728
And the price pumped. Everyone said that, oh, Trump made the price pump.

825
01:30:33,728 --> 01:30:36,728
You know, it's because of this tweet that the price pumped.

826
01:30:36,728 --> 01:30:45,728
And then it took like a dump to like below ten thousand dollars per coin like a
couple of days after that.

827
01:30:45,728 --> 01:30:48,728
And then everyone said, oh, it dumped because of Trump.

828
01:30:49,728 --> 01:31:01,728
And I think it's a really good lesson that we always try to ascribe some reasonable
logic as to why the price does what it does.

829
01:31:01,728 --> 01:31:09,728
And we provide these post hoc explanations for them when really it probably has
nothing to do with either of those things.

830
01:31:09,728 --> 01:31:12,728
Or maybe it does, but on the one, but it doesn't on the other.

831
01:31:12,728 --> 01:31:16,728
But it can't be both. It can't be that the tweet caused the pump and then it also
caused the dump.

832
01:31:16,728 --> 01:31:24,728
So it's just important that, you know, it's like a very Shakespearean kind of like
turning the tables on people who make these arguments.

833
01:31:24,728 --> 01:31:30,728
They take them so seriously and then the exact opposite thing is shown to them.

834
01:31:30,728 --> 01:31:34,728
And then they're just like, you know, how do people deal with this?

835
01:31:35,728 --> 01:31:44,728
This is this nonsense. I do think one thing, though, is that we are seeing greater
attention from, you know, driven toward.

836
01:31:44,728 --> 01:31:53,728
I think, you know, we've had Libra and we've had more formal institutions like, you
know, the president and the treasury secretary.

837
01:31:53,728 --> 01:31:57,728
All these people is formal. Stuff is paying more attention.

838
01:31:57,728 --> 01:32:08,728
And I think that gives the edge to BTC over less decentralized things because they
have been evolving towards centralization.

839
01:32:09,728 --> 01:32:12,728
You know, these are many of these alt coins for efficiency.

840
01:32:12,728 --> 01:32:22,728
You know, they've been evolving in that direction, sort of taking a little cheap
shot here or there, like with the Dow or with other stuff that like EOS is doing or
whatever.

841
01:32:22,728 --> 01:32:30,728
And and but this where they have the disadvantages in the censorship resistance.

842
01:32:30,728 --> 01:32:41,728
And so I think the decoupling of BTC from all could be attributed to more attention
being paid to it by the U.S. government.

843
01:32:41,728 --> 01:32:45,728
I think, yeah, I'm open to the I'm open to the argument that this could all be good
for Bitcoin.

844
01:32:45,728 --> 01:32:56,728
I think that remains to be seen. And certainly that's a very interesting topic,
talking about the kinds of threats that the state poses once it actually gets
afraid.

845
01:32:57,728 --> 01:33:01,728
But I do like your I do like your comparison to Shakespeare.

846
01:33:01,728 --> 01:33:12,728
And I think that it's even Shakespearean to think that, you know, I could just
imagine the line like Twas Twas Trump that caused the pump and Twas Trump that
caused the dump.

847
01:33:14,728 --> 01:33:18,728
Yeah, right. Or like two people get different news about what happened.

848
01:33:18,728 --> 01:33:25,728
And one person one person gets one person's like servant gets the news that the
price went down and the other person gets the news of the price went up.

849
01:33:25,728 --> 01:33:28,728
And then meanwhile, they get the news and they say, oh, I knew it.

850
01:33:28,728 --> 01:33:30,728
This is all because of Trump. And then the other guy says, oh, I knew it.

851
01:33:30,728 --> 01:33:32,728
This is all because of Trump separately.

852
01:33:32,728 --> 01:33:39,728
And then they end up in the same room together and hilarity ensues or they murder
each other.

853
01:33:39,728 --> 01:33:43,728
You don't know whether whether it's a comedy or a tragedy.

854
01:33:43,728 --> 01:33:46,728
Are we are we in King Lear or Midsummer Night's Dream?

855
01:33:46,728 --> 01:33:49,728
We don't know. Yeah. Who know? Or maybe a little bit of both.

856
01:33:49,728 --> 01:33:56,728
Yeah. The Tempest. I guess that means it's I guess that means it's time for the
lightning round.

857
01:33:59,728 --> 01:34:06,728
Oh, and this week, this week, our lightning round comes to us from Reuben.

858
01:34:07,728 --> 01:34:09,728
So I'm going to let Reuben take it away.

859
01:34:10,728 --> 01:34:13,728
Is it? I don't think it's me. Oh, no. Sorry. It's from Brian.

860
01:34:13,728 --> 01:34:15,728
Never mind. I got it wrong.

861
01:34:16,728 --> 01:34:18,728
Giving you a zing. All right.

862
01:34:19,728 --> 01:34:22,728
I can make some questions on the fly if you want. They're going to be terrible.

863
01:34:23,728 --> 01:34:27,728
I actually do have one. They probably won't be worse than mine.

864
01:34:27,728 --> 01:34:36,728
So, yeah. So I get to go first this week or I get to ask the questions and then I go
last.

865
01:34:36,728 --> 01:34:40,728
And then but Paul goes first and then Reuben and then Colin.

866
01:34:40,728 --> 01:34:45,728
Yeah. So, Paul, the way the lightning round works is generally, usually, but not
always.

867
01:34:46,728 --> 01:34:53,728
The lightning round consists of a series of of booleans, maybe you'd say, or maybe
not boolean,

868
01:34:53,728 --> 01:34:59,728
but but but a binary of two choices.

869
01:34:59,728 --> 01:35:02,728
And you must choose which is the better one, in your opinion.

870
01:35:04,728 --> 01:35:06,728
All right. I'll do my best. All right.

871
01:35:06,728 --> 01:35:10,728
All right. Drivechains or state chains.

872
01:35:11,728 --> 01:35:14,728
Oh, that's mean I can't do any. Just I think they are actually very, very different.

873
01:35:15,728 --> 01:35:21,728
I agree. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm committed to my prediction markets project, which
is really the only reason if there was some way.

874
01:35:22,728 --> 01:35:33,728
If you could do state, if you could use state chains to do like arbitrary programs
such that you could instantiate this Bitcoin Hivemind idea with them.

875
01:35:33,728 --> 01:35:40,728
I got to got to go with my own. But I actually do think that the state it's it's
unfortunate we didn't have any chance to talk about.

876
01:35:41,728 --> 01:35:44,728
I know I'm just stomping on the rules of the lightning round.

877
01:35:45,728 --> 01:35:50,728
And that's all right. Every single episode is terrible, though, that we we didn't
really even get to talk about it.

878
01:35:50,728 --> 01:36:02,728
I was I was perusing some of the state chain stuff so that I could make sure that I
but I think state chains really are very, very different from all the other layer
twos.

879
01:36:03,728 --> 01:36:06,728
They're probably the most different out of any.

880
01:36:07,728 --> 01:36:13,728
Love the layer Tuesday. I mean, there is a lot of similarity, I think, with just
sidechains like the federated security wise.

881
01:36:13,728 --> 01:36:18,728
It's similar, but I think actually if you compare it to federated sidechains like
liquid.

882
01:36:18,728 --> 01:36:22,728
Yeah, I think it's. I mean, what is the disadvantage?

883
01:36:22,728 --> 01:36:25,728
I think it's a strict improvement, like in every way, don't you think?

884
01:36:25,728 --> 01:36:32,728
I mean, maybe the UTXO thing. Yeah, the UTXO thing is that is that it's you cannot
resize them very easily.

885
01:36:32,728 --> 01:36:42,728
But that just means you have to cut a bunch of UTXOs into like, you know, dollars
and cents and nickels and dimes and five dollar bills and twenty dollar bills, you
know?

886
01:36:42,728 --> 01:36:44,728
Yeah, that's correct.

887
01:36:44,728 --> 01:36:46,728
Denominations and then we'll be back in business.

888
01:36:46,728 --> 01:36:48,728
So, yeah.

889
01:36:49,728 --> 01:36:51,728
Yeah, no, I agree with that, but I don't.

890
01:36:51,728 --> 01:36:56,728
Yeah, I don't think there's a lot of like comparison to make between Drivechains
and state chains.

891
01:36:56,728 --> 01:36:57,728
They are pretty different.

892
01:36:57,728 --> 01:37:05,728
I think actually not only is state chain so different, but actually I think Drivechain is also very different and they're actually probably the furthest from each
other.

893
01:37:05,728 --> 01:37:07,728
Yeah, that seems likely.

894
01:37:07,728 --> 01:37:12,728
Yeah, I think they are just totally because Drivechain is this weird like
subjective element.

895
01:37:12,728 --> 01:37:15,728
Yeah, it's weird, like strategic.

896
01:37:16,728 --> 01:37:27,728
And it exists in this world of information being not completely consistent, but
slowly a tiny amount of it, 32 bytes becoming consistent over a period of six
months.

897
01:37:27,728 --> 01:37:32,728
And all this other stuff that why would that happen versus other things that would
happen?

898
01:37:33,728 --> 01:37:40,728
And state chains is also totally very different, but it's very mechanical and sort
of cut and dry.

899
01:37:40,728 --> 01:37:45,728
The server just does basically multiplication and then subtraction.

900
01:37:45,728 --> 01:37:46,728
Yeah.

901
01:37:46,728 --> 01:37:48,728
And then sends the stuff back and has no idea what's going on.

902
01:37:48,728 --> 01:37:49,728
Yeah.

903
01:37:49,728 --> 01:37:51,728
And it's supposed to work like a clock.

904
01:37:51,728 --> 01:37:56,728
So, there's a lot to talk about, though, because there are a couple things.

905
01:37:56,728 --> 01:38:01,728
So, the lightning network, I mean, excuse me, the lightning round rules have been
obliterated.

906
01:38:01,728 --> 01:38:03,728
That was quite a question, though.

907
01:38:03,728 --> 01:38:10,728
I'm not sure if you could really ask that question, given that we didn't really get
to talk about state chains.

908
01:38:10,728 --> 01:38:12,728
Anyway, I'll try to do better.

909
01:38:12,728 --> 01:38:15,728
I'll try to make the next one even worse so that I have to.

910
01:38:15,728 --> 01:38:17,728
Oh, don't worry.

911
01:38:17,728 --> 01:38:18,728
Don't worry.

912
01:38:18,728 --> 01:38:21,728
The rest of the round, there'll be one word answers.

913
01:38:21,728 --> 01:38:22,728
Don't worry.

914
01:38:22,728 --> 01:38:24,728
The next one is juicy.

915
01:38:24,728 --> 01:38:25,728
Ruben.

916
01:38:25,728 --> 01:38:26,728
Yeah.

917
01:38:26,728 --> 01:38:30,728
So, Paul's answer is Drivechains.

918
01:38:30,728 --> 01:38:32,728
Drivechains, I assume, because...

919
01:38:32,728 --> 01:38:34,728
It has to be, unfortunately.

920
01:38:34,728 --> 01:38:36,728
Yeah, the prediction market thing.

921
01:38:36,728 --> 01:38:37,728
Yeah.

922
01:38:37,728 --> 01:38:41,728
There is a way to do scripting in state chains through...

923
01:38:41,728 --> 01:38:44,728
Yeah, but what I need is way more than scripting.

924
01:38:44,728 --> 01:38:47,728
It's like a weird new thing.

925
01:38:47,728 --> 01:38:51,728
Yeah, I'm not sure whether or not you could do something along those lines.

926
01:38:51,728 --> 01:38:54,728
But either way, you'd still be stuck with a federation that has some power over it.

927
01:38:54,728 --> 01:38:55,728
I suppose.

928
01:38:55,728 --> 01:38:56,728
Yeah, I don't know.

929
01:38:56,728 --> 01:38:57,728
Yeah, anyway.

930
01:38:57,728 --> 01:38:58,728
Probably not.

931
01:38:58,728 --> 01:38:59,728
Long story.

932
01:38:59,728 --> 01:39:06,728
Yeah, I'll be nice and I'll answer that Drivechains.

933
01:39:06,728 --> 01:39:07,728
Oh, thank you.

934
01:39:07,728 --> 01:39:09,728
They're totally orthogonal, though.

935
01:39:09,728 --> 01:39:12,728
There's no reason why you can't have both of them.

936
01:39:12,728 --> 01:39:14,728
No, no, no.

937
01:39:14,728 --> 01:39:16,728
You have to choose one.

938
01:39:16,728 --> 01:39:17,728
You have to choose one.

939
01:39:17,728 --> 01:39:18,728
Colin.

940
01:39:18,728 --> 01:39:20,728
It's the unfortunate world we live in.

941
01:39:20,728 --> 01:39:25,728
Well, you know, A, I feel like I understand state chains a lot better

942
01:39:25,728 --> 01:39:28,728
because I think they're probably a lot easier to understand.

943
01:39:28,728 --> 01:39:36,728
So just on, I think, likely feasibility, maybe I'm going to go with state chains.

944
01:39:36,728 --> 01:39:39,728
And I want to stick up for my fellow host.

945
01:39:39,728 --> 01:39:43,728
You know, he's, so far in this question, it's been all Drivechains.

946
01:39:43,728 --> 01:39:44,728
Loyalty is a virtue.

947
01:39:44,728 --> 01:39:47,728
Also, it would be very, you know, it's not...

948
01:39:48,427 --> 01:39:53,427
You can't endorse things that you don't know anything about, so that would not be a
very honest endorsement.

949
01:39:53,427 --> 01:39:58,427
So I don't really want that. I don't really want people to endorse Drivechain
without knowing anything about it.

950
01:39:58,427 --> 01:40:02,427
We just had an entire educational podcast explaining to them how it works.

951
01:40:02,427 --> 01:40:08,427
I can tell you with great certainty, I still don't fucking understand Drivechains.

952
01:40:08,427 --> 01:40:14,427
Well, yeah, I think actually we have a test net, so it may be easier if you just
download the software and just, you know, in a safe place.

953
01:40:15,427 --> 01:40:20,427
Don't download it to your private key computer, but download it and just send some
money around.

954
01:40:20,427 --> 01:40:24,427
I think that's easy. That's how people learn to Bitcoin, right? That's how I learned
it anyway.

955
01:40:24,427 --> 01:40:30,427
At first I was like, what's going on? And then I was like, oh, you get some money
from the faucet and you're like, oh, I get it.

956
01:40:30,427 --> 01:40:33,427
It's very easy. I just send money to people.

957
01:40:33,427 --> 01:40:36,427
Brian?

958
01:40:36,427 --> 01:40:44,427
No, the correct answer is Drivechains. And not because I understand it, but because
Paul's the guest.

959
01:40:44,427 --> 01:40:48,427
Chivalry. Chivalry is not dead. You've read it here on the show.

960
01:40:48,427 --> 01:40:50,427
All right. Next question, then.

961
01:40:50,427 --> 01:40:56,427
All right. The next question is, is Dogecoin a sidechain of Litecoin?

962
01:40:58,427 --> 01:41:00,427
I'm going to go with no.

963
01:41:00,427 --> 01:41:01,427
No.

964
01:41:01,427 --> 01:41:04,427
And I can explain if you want, but I stick to the rules.

965
01:41:04,427 --> 01:41:06,427
No, no. Go ahead.

966
01:41:06,427 --> 01:41:08,427
I want to hear it.

967
01:41:08,427 --> 01:41:10,427
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

968
01:41:10,427 --> 01:41:18,427
The critical element of the original meaning of the word sidechain implied this
two-way peg idea.

969
01:41:18,427 --> 01:41:28,427
So they would imply if it were a sidechain of Litecoin, it would imply that anyone
who owned Litecoin would be able to send the money away and it would become
Doge-like, whatever that means.

970
01:41:28,427 --> 01:41:33,427
And they'd be able to do Dogecoin things with a different piece of software and then
get Litecoin back.

971
01:41:33,427 --> 01:41:40,427
So the absence of the two-way peg is, I think, the crucial feature of the sidechain.

972
01:41:40,427 --> 01:41:52,427
And punting it to a group of friends in the multisig sort of federation thing is, in
my view, not really a very honest way of achieving the two-way peg.

973
01:41:52,427 --> 01:41:55,427
But Dogecoin doesn't even have that.

974
01:41:55,427 --> 01:41:59,427
So I think the answer is definitely that it is not a sidechain.

975
01:42:00,427 --> 01:42:09,427
Yeah, there's this desire or a trend – well, it's not really a trend yet, and
hopefully it won't be – but to call merged mined chains sidechains.

976
01:42:09,427 --> 01:42:17,427
And I agree with Paul in that a two-way peg is what you call a sidechain and not a
merged mined chain with a different coin.

977
01:42:17,427 --> 01:42:34,427
Paul, one of the things that I actually wanted to mention was that I think the Drivechains, the blind merged mining, is completely – without the two-way peg, if you
just had an altcoin and you wanted to do merged mining, then the blind merged mining
would be perfect for that, no?

978
01:42:35,427 --> 01:42:41,427
Well, blind merged mining requires soft fork to support.

979
01:42:41,427 --> 01:42:55,427
Layer one has to know how to accept transactions such that they're only valid if
there's a specific section of real estate.

980
01:42:55,427 --> 01:42:57,427
Yeah, so you need a soft fork to activate it.

981
01:42:57,427 --> 01:43:04,427
Yeah, you can't do it right now. I mean, obviously, on the testnet, we have a
testnet where it's working, but that's a testnet.

982
01:43:04,427 --> 01:43:22,427
But if we got the soft fork, then there are chances that you're not just helping
two-way pegged Drivechains, but you're also enabling altcoins to use that same
technique to do merged mining on Bitcoin, correct?

983
01:43:22,427 --> 01:43:23,427
That is correct.

984
01:43:23,427 --> 01:43:25,427
That sounds a little scary.

985
01:43:26,427 --> 01:43:44,427
What's cool is that actually what happens with blind merged mining is that the
people who are assembling blocks, sidechain nodes, they pay themselves the fees on
their layer, on their chain or whatever, and then they make a payment of an
equivalent amount of money on layer one.

986
01:43:44,427 --> 01:43:52,427
It compresses the whole act of finding the block to one transaction they include on
layer one that is paid directly to miners.

987
01:43:52,427 --> 01:44:02,427
So as a result, miners, SHA-256 Bitcoin miners, layer one miners, just by doing
nothing, they get all these juicy high-value transactions.

988
01:44:02,427 --> 01:44:19,427
All the transaction fees from all these other chains go to them, and that pumps the
hash rate up, means more profits for miners, which means a higher equilibrium hash
rate eventually, which means more hash rate security for users.

989
01:44:19,427 --> 01:44:38,427
Obviously, people wonder about the long-run destination of Bitcoin's hash rate
security, but this is a cool way of just putting all the transaction fee magnitudes
from all these different pieces of software, putting them all into layer one miners.

990
01:44:38,427 --> 01:44:46,427
That is better than what we currently have, which is spreading them thinly over many
different miners.

991
01:44:46,427 --> 01:44:53,427
So Paul and Ruben are both a no on Dogecoin being a Litecoin sidechain. That's
correct?

992
01:44:53,427 --> 01:44:55,427
That's correct.

993
01:44:55,427 --> 01:45:06,427
Okay. Then for me, I'm all about solidarity and loyalty today. So out of loyalty to
Fluffy Pony, I'm going to say yes.

994
01:45:06,427 --> 01:45:09,427
Oh, nice.

995
01:45:09,427 --> 01:45:13,427
Shout out to Fluffy. All right. Well, Colin, you –

996
01:45:13,427 --> 01:45:15,427
He is great.

997
01:45:15,427 --> 01:45:21,427
You and Fluffy, unfortunately, are wrong, and Ruben and Paul are right.

998
01:45:21,427 --> 01:45:23,427
You're just sucking Paul's dick.

999
01:45:23,427 --> 01:45:29,427
Yeah, well, you know, he's the guest. But actually, that's what I thought from the
very beginning.

1000
01:45:29,427 --> 01:45:32,427
I've got to recommend everyone to come on the show.

1001
01:45:32,427 --> 01:45:34,427
Yeah. Dogecoin.

1002
01:45:34,427 --> 01:45:36,427
Says the guy getting his dick sucked.

1003
01:45:36,427 --> 01:45:37,427
Exactly.

1004
01:45:37,427 --> 01:45:40,427
Yeah. I'm just pepper grinder over here.

1005
01:45:40,427 --> 01:45:43,427
Next question.

1006
01:45:43,427 --> 01:46:02,427
All right. Would you rather every shirt you wear have hair jibbies in it – the hair
jibbies are making a comeback in this one – or only be able to use our shitcoin
one-ply toilet paper?

1007
01:46:02,427 --> 01:46:05,427
What's a hair jibbie?

1008
01:46:05,427 --> 01:46:10,427
You know, you get your hair cut, and there's like little pieces of hair.

1009
01:46:10,427 --> 01:46:12,427
I missed this episode.

1010
01:46:12,427 --> 01:46:13,427
Oh, okay.

1011
01:46:13,427 --> 01:46:15,427
I need to go back and listen to it.

1012
01:46:15,427 --> 01:46:20,427
Okay, so it's between have hair jibbies or you can only use our shitcoin white paper
toilet paper.

1013
01:46:20,427 --> 01:46:22,427
Yeah, as your toilet paper.

1014
01:46:22,427 --> 01:46:25,427
We'll have to get a rollout to Paul as a thank you.

1015
01:46:25,427 --> 01:46:29,427
Yeah. You know what? I think that'll be – any new guests, they get some toilet paper
rolls.

1016
01:46:29,427 --> 01:46:31,427
They're getting a shitcoin toilet paper? Okay.

1017
01:46:31,427 --> 01:46:32,427
Yeah.

1018
01:46:32,427 --> 01:46:37,427
I think I can live with weird toilet paper.

1019
01:46:37,427 --> 01:46:39,427
So I think I'm going to go with that.

1020
01:46:39,427 --> 01:46:41,427
That seems more manageable.

1021
01:46:41,427 --> 01:46:45,427
I mean, look, everyone at MCC wiped their ass with our toilet paper.

1022
01:46:45,427 --> 01:46:46,427
That's true.

1023
01:46:46,427 --> 01:46:52,427
We were the unofficial, official toilet paper sponsor of Magical Crypto Conference.

1024
01:46:52,427 --> 01:46:53,427
Yeah.

1025
01:46:53,427 --> 01:46:57,427
So what's the downside to using our toilet paper? It just seems like a plus.

1026
01:46:57,427 --> 01:47:03,427
You get to read about all these amazing ICO opportunities, and you're up in your
ass.

1027
01:47:04,427 --> 01:47:07,427
Yeah, I think it's funny. It's a good conversation starter if your guests come over.

1028
01:47:07,427 --> 01:47:11,427
I don't know how many conversations you're having while you're taking a shit.

1029
01:47:11,427 --> 01:47:13,427
Well, when they come out later, of course.

1030
01:47:13,427 --> 01:47:16,427
Well, there's a guy in the stall next to you, and you pass on the –

1031
01:47:16,427 --> 01:47:22,427
Whoa! Look at this coin. We got to get in on this.

1032
01:47:22,427 --> 01:47:23,427
It's XYO, man.

1033
01:47:23,427 --> 01:47:25,427
You see this XYO token?

1034
01:47:25,427 --> 01:47:27,427
It's going straight up.

1035
01:47:27,427 --> 01:47:32,427
It's going straight up in a Tesla or in a SpaceX rocket.

1036
01:47:33,427 --> 01:47:34,427
Boom.

1037
01:47:34,427 --> 01:47:35,427
Yeah.

1038
01:47:35,427 --> 01:47:38,427
Okay, well, yeah, I, too, am choosing the toilet paper.

1039
01:47:38,427 --> 01:47:39,427
Yeah.

1040
01:47:39,427 --> 01:47:41,427
Persian bees are the worst.

1041
01:47:41,427 --> 01:47:42,427
That's true.

1042
01:47:42,427 --> 01:47:43,427
All right.

1043
01:47:46,427 --> 01:47:48,427
Okay, last question.

1044
01:47:49,427 --> 01:47:55,427
So, as a given, in this question, you know the cure for cancer.

1045
01:47:56,427 --> 01:48:08,427
Now, you can do funding through normal VCs, or you could cure 10% more people if you
ICO'd a cancer coin.

1046
01:48:10,427 --> 01:48:12,427
So, what are you going to do?

1047
01:48:12,427 --> 01:48:14,427
Are you going to take the ICO money?

1048
01:48:14,427 --> 01:48:16,427
Yeah, I would take the ICO.

1049
01:48:16,427 --> 01:48:25,427
I mean, I hate ICOs, but it seems as though many people would die who otherwise
wouldn't.

1050
01:48:25,427 --> 01:48:28,427
So, I'm definitely against needless death.

1051
01:48:28,427 --> 01:48:35,427
And the thing against the ICO is the fact that all the people get paid up front.

1052
01:48:35,427 --> 01:48:49,427
It's the opposite of the military ethic of the officers who last, and of any
semblance of a logical incentive alignment of all the people in this organization.

1053
01:48:49,427 --> 01:49:01,427
And so, if you know that you're going to succeed, and you – I mean, you would never
know with certainty, but in your premise, you'd say that if you just had some money,
you'd be able to cure people of cancer.

1054
01:49:02,427 --> 01:49:04,427
Yeah, I think definitely you would.

1055
01:49:04,427 --> 01:49:10,427
I mean, the ICO is bad, but it's only bad for certain reasons.

1056
01:49:10,427 --> 01:49:25,427
One is that it fosters obfuscation and dishonesty, and the other is – another of the
many reasons is that you get all the money in advance before you do any work.

1057
01:49:26,427 --> 01:49:36,427
But with this, you would – you know that you are doing something clearly, and you
know that you have already done a lot of work because it was assumed in that.

1058
01:49:36,427 --> 01:49:46,427
So, I would definitely – why should the 10 percent or whoever these marginal people
are – I mean, what if you did it the other way around?

1059
01:49:47,427 --> 01:49:55,427
You said you're doing an ICO. Would you – to avoid the – you can avoid doing an ICO
and go to VCs, but 10 percent of the people will die.

1060
01:49:55,427 --> 01:49:58,427
So it seems like that's pretty predictive.

1061
01:49:58,427 --> 01:50:04,427
Yeah, yeah. I got to go with Paul's answer. He makes a solid case there.

1062
01:50:04,427 --> 01:50:07,427
Yeah, I'm ICOing as well.

1063
01:50:07,427 --> 01:50:10,427
All right, CancerCoin. Here we come.

1064
01:50:10,427 --> 01:50:12,427
CancerCoin is coming.

1065
01:50:12,427 --> 01:50:14,427
Paul, just cure cancer so we can make CancerCoin.

1066
01:50:15,427 --> 01:50:20,427
If you could do that, like work on that for a little while instead of prediction
markets, that would be nice.

1067
01:50:20,427 --> 01:50:43,427
That would be great, but I do – I think they're related because the prediction
markets are related to – I mean we have – if you can create a society that has much
more wealth and has much saner tax policy, you end up with lots of super rich people
like Bill Gates and these other people who fund a lot of different research.

1068
01:50:44,427 --> 01:50:47,427
You have more – just more capital available.

1069
01:50:47,427 --> 01:51:09,427
A rich society can do a lot of NSF grants for cancer research, has hospitals for
research, but a poor country can't even begin to cure cancer, and it can't even – a
very poor country will get to the point where people die before they'll even get
cancer.

1070
01:51:09,427 --> 01:51:11,427
Yeah, yeah.

1071
01:51:11,427 --> 01:51:26,427
So I actually think it's related, and we want a society where – there is a – you
should really check out all the stuff that I have published about, but you can give
these politicians any metric you want.

1072
01:51:26,427 --> 01:51:32,427
So you could say we want to elect whoever will result in the fewest deaths during
their presidency.

1073
01:51:33,427 --> 01:51:46,427
That's a very weird thing to bet on or have derivatives on, but you could have
something where it's just like, hey, if we elect the Democratic candidate, there
will be X deaths, and if we elect the Republican candidate, there will be Y deaths.

1074
01:51:46,427 --> 01:52:00,427
Eventually, you'd get to a point where these people are literally meeting the
political – the world that I envision is a world where the political parties meet
and they say, what can we do out of all the things in the world?

1075
01:52:01,427 --> 01:52:23,427
We need to get our deaths projection number down as much as possible, and they'll
just get creative, and they're going to be bringing in all the great scientists, and
it will be everything about – everything from suicide to opioids, but eventually,
once all the low-hanging fruit are picked, they'll be on to – well, a lot of people
die from cancer.

1076
01:52:23,427 --> 01:52:28,427
A lot of people die from heart attack, and they'll be like – so then they'll be on
that.

1077
01:52:28,427 --> 01:52:33,427
So once you define a metric for them to compete on, they'll be like, whatever we can
do to get it done.

1078
01:52:33,427 --> 01:52:38,427
So actually, I do think it's – I hate to be so utopian about this.

1079
01:52:38,427 --> 01:52:49,427
I do wonder what kind of – I mean you sort of had that happening in the Soviet Union
where they wanted to get their death rate in the hospitals down.

1080
01:52:49,427 --> 01:52:57,427
So they just started taking terminally ill people and dumping them on the sidewalk
so they would die out of the hospital.

1081
01:52:57,427 --> 01:53:00,427
And technically, their hospital death rate went down.

1082
01:53:00,427 --> 01:53:02,427
It was like extremely low.

1083
01:53:02,427 --> 01:53:04,427
It was like no one died in Soviet hospitals.

1084
01:53:04,427 --> 01:53:13,427
So you raise an important point, which is the metric has to be defined very well and
not like a kind of deal with the devil kind of trap door into it.

1085
01:53:13,427 --> 01:53:25,427
But also, there's a question of exactly who's doing the measuring, and this is like
a big project, and that is one of the things that we have to do last even though I
have a lot of ideas on that.

1086
01:53:26,427 --> 01:53:39,427
I actually think deaths are probably one of the easiest because we have stuff like
social security records and birth records, and you really can't – for everyone who
dies, there's going to be like an obituary that someone can look up.

1087
01:53:39,427 --> 01:53:52,427
And of all the metrics to fake, I think that saying that a bunch of people – just
trying to say that a bunch of people who were around and died didn't die, that's
going to be pretty difficult to do.

1088
01:53:52,427 --> 01:54:08,427
But if the administration is – if their aesthetic goal is getting the deaths down
and they control the social security administration, I mean like central governments
abuse numbers all the time in their favor.

1089
01:54:08,427 --> 01:54:12,427
I mean like the IRS doesn't even have to follow general accepted accounting
principles.

1090
01:54:12,427 --> 01:54:16,427
You could also ban all cars, and then there's no cars.

1091
01:54:17,427 --> 01:54:24,427
But yeah, so you'd have to – well, this is the other thing is you want the metrics
to be nice, and there will be many different metrics.

1092
01:54:24,427 --> 01:54:28,427
So you could be like – I have talks and stuff about this.

1093
01:54:28,427 --> 01:54:32,427
I would argue that if you banned all cars, deaths would definitely go up.

1094
01:54:32,427 --> 01:54:33,427
Yeah, I probably would.

1095
01:54:33,427 --> 01:54:38,427
You would wonder about how we would get certain food around us.

1096
01:54:38,427 --> 01:54:40,427
I mean you could still allow ambulances if that's your concern.

1097
01:54:40,427 --> 01:54:42,427
What about food though?

1098
01:54:42,427 --> 01:54:43,427
Yeah, the food.

1099
01:54:43,427 --> 01:54:44,427
You know, truck drivers.

1100
01:54:44,427 --> 01:54:45,427
I don't know.

1101
01:54:45,427 --> 01:54:46,427
You make them all automated AI.

1102
01:54:46,427 --> 01:54:47,427
I don't know.

1103
01:54:47,427 --> 01:54:53,427
Well, that's the thing is we probably should be working on making all of our
vehicles automated AI because a lot of people do.

1104
01:54:53,427 --> 01:54:57,427
30,000 or so people do die on the freeway where you're basically just staying in
between two lines.

1105
01:54:57,427 --> 01:55:01,427
And this is what – Elon Musk is already on this project.

1106
01:55:01,427 --> 01:55:08,427
So he's boldly a step ahead of what we would otherwise have had in a kind of more
reasonable world.

1107
01:55:08,427 --> 01:55:11,427
So we put our best man on the job.

1108
01:55:11,427 --> 01:55:16,427
Yeah, we've hit the two-hour mark, so I think it's time to – probably time to wrap
this up.

1109
01:55:16,427 --> 01:55:27,427
But before we go, Paul, I want to give you an opportunity just one last time to tell
people where they can check you out and follow you and just that whole sign-off
info.

1110
01:55:27,427 --> 01:55:30,427
Okay, that's great.

1111
01:55:30,427 --> 01:55:36,427
Truthcoin.info is my sort of blog website.

1112
01:55:36,427 --> 01:55:44,427
And that's named after the peer-to-peer Oracle paper, and the project is now at
BitcoinHiveMind.com.

1113
01:55:44,427 --> 01:55:47,427
And I'm at Truthcoin on Twitter.

1114
01:55:47,427 --> 01:55:49,427
The Drivechain has its own site.

1115
01:55:49,427 --> 01:55:51,427
That's Drivechain.info.

1116
01:55:51,427 --> 01:55:58,427
All the sites sort of link together, and the Twitter has a link to the prediction
markets project.

1117
01:55:58,427 --> 01:56:01,427
So that's how I do all that.

1118
01:56:01,427 --> 01:56:08,427
I've been on BitcoinHiveMind, and you have probably written thousands of pages of
content there.

1119
01:56:08,427 --> 01:56:13,427
So anyone who wants to jump down that rabbit hole will have plenty, plenty to occupy
their time.

1120
01:56:13,427 --> 01:56:17,427
Maybe over a summer vacation you can make that your summer vacation list.

1121
01:56:17,427 --> 01:56:24,427
Actually, now there's two presentations that are pretty good that I think some
people like.

1122
01:56:24,427 --> 01:56:30,427
So they're up there, and they're sort of near the top, sort of called them out.

1123
01:56:30,427 --> 01:56:33,427
So I would definitely check out the slides for Anarchapulco.

1124
01:56:33,427 --> 01:56:36,427
That one's down to 20 minutes, and you can read the transcript.

1125
01:56:36,427 --> 01:56:40,427
I'm going to have the edited video up there pretty soon.

1126
01:56:40,427 --> 01:56:43,427
Well, everyone should go check that out.

1127
01:56:43,427 --> 01:56:45,427
Do that, and that's 20 minutes.

1128
01:56:45,427 --> 01:56:48,427
And then there's another one that was at TabConf that's 45 minutes.

1129
01:56:48,427 --> 01:56:54,427
So if you don't want to go on a big odyssey, you can settle for those two.

1130
01:56:55,427 --> 01:56:59,427
All right, guys. Well, yeah, definitely go check out those videos as well

1131
01:56:59,427 --> 01:57:03,427
and the notes and the slides if you're interested, and you should be.

1132
01:57:03,427 --> 01:57:05,427
So, yeah, go check those out.

1133
01:57:05,427 --> 01:57:07,427
Guys, that's going to do it for us.

1134
01:57:07,427 --> 01:57:11,427
But you can head to UnhashedPodcast.com where you can find show notes for this
episode as well as all the others.

1135
01:57:11,427 --> 01:57:17,427
And you can follow us at Unhashed – is it underscore?

1136
01:57:17,427 --> 01:57:19,427
Now I'm blanking on our –

1137
01:57:19,427 --> 01:57:21,427
No, no, UnhashedPodcast.com.

1138
01:57:21,427 --> 01:57:23,427
At Unhashed Podcast. Yeah, right. Yeah, that's it.

1139
01:57:23,427 --> 01:57:25,427
So check that out. Follow us there.

1140
01:57:25,427 --> 01:57:28,427
Leave us a like, subscribe, comment.

1141
01:57:28,427 --> 01:57:31,427
And give a tweet to Paul and thank him for coming on the show.

1142
01:57:31,427 --> 01:57:33,427
And, of course, Paul, we appreciate you coming on.

1143
01:57:33,427 --> 01:57:39,427
Thank you for your time and for working with us, as you explained, for probably the
100th time, DriveChains.

1144
01:57:39,427 --> 01:57:42,427
And we're always happy to talk and have you on.

1145
01:57:42,427 --> 01:57:47,427
And I always love getting to meet you in person when we're at the conferences.

1146
01:57:47,427 --> 01:57:49,427
Thank you, guys. This has been a lot of fun.

1147
01:57:49,427 --> 01:57:51,427
Thank you so much for having me on.

1148
01:57:51,427 --> 01:57:55,427
Guys, this has been Unhashed Podcast, the show where we bring crypto down to earth
and cut through all the blockchain bullshit.

1149
01:57:55,427 --> 01:58:01,427
We'll see you next week when Mario, the prodigal son, returns.

1150
01:58:01,427 --> 01:58:04,427
And we'll give you all the updates on what he's been up to.

1151
01:58:04,427 --> 01:58:07,427
So we'll see you then. Thank you so much. We love you.

1152
01:58:07,427 --> 01:58:09,427
Goodbye.

1153
01:58:11,427 --> 01:58:14,427
Hey, guys. Thanks for stopping by and listening.

1154
01:58:14,427 --> 01:58:17,427
If you want to help us grow, there are several ways you can help out.

1155
01:58:17,427 --> 01:58:22,427
You can donate Bitcoin to us at the address in the Donate page on our website,
UnhashedPodcast.com.

1156
01:58:22,427 --> 01:58:28,427
Or you can also sponsor our show by getting in touch with us at Mailbag at
UnhashedPodcast.com.

1157
01:58:28,427 --> 01:58:33,427
And there are a few other things you can do that will cost you nothing but a little
time.

1158
01:58:33,427 --> 01:58:36,427
You can rate our show on iTunes or wherever you're listening to this.

1159
01:58:36,427 --> 01:58:38,427
You can tell a friend about us.

1160
01:58:38,427 --> 01:58:44,427
Or most easily, you can retweet our tweets announcing each episode and follow us at
Unhashed Podcast.

1161
01:58:44,427 --> 01:58:49,427
Or join our Telegram channel at t.me slash Unhashed Podcast.

1162
01:58:49,427 --> 01:58:52,427
Again, thanks for listening and helping us grow.

1163
01:58:52,427 --> 01:58:54,427
See you on the other side.

1164
01:59:14,427 --> 01:59:16,427
Bye-bye.

1165
01:59:44,427 --> 01:59:46,427
Unhashed Podcast.

1166
01:59:46,427 --> 01:59:48,427
A production of Unhashed Podcast.

1167
01:59:48,427 --> 01:59:50,427
www.unhashedpodcast.com

1168
02:00:14,427 --> 02:00:16,427
www.unhashedpodcast.com