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Cool. Great. Yes, happy to be here again. And I don't know, I don't have eight hours

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today, but we've got a little bit of time, at least two hours. We'll see if we get any

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questions. We're working on a cool page, like a short page to refute all of the FUD.

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So that's cool. And we have a new version of the software coming out, probably like

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tomorrow morning. So I'm excited about that. And that'll be pretty neat. I don't know.

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I'm not sure what questions we'll still get, because we've had lots and lots of repeating

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questions. But I suppose this week, one interesting thing happened was that Shinobi went back

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and forth with different articles, and I kept replying to them. So if you go to my Twitter

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and you look at the highlights, you will see all my best tweets about Drivechain and replying

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to various critiques and things. And I'm going to be, just as a side note, I'm going to be in

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October, I'm going to be in Zurich, and then I'm going to be in Berlin. I think it'll be Zurich,

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and then Frankfurt, and then Berlin, and then Bitcoin Amsterdam. So if you're at any of those

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events, that is where I'm going to be. That is coming up. So stop by if you're interested. And

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of course, if anyone wants to say anything, just hit the speaker button. I'm going to plug in my headphones.

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These have been great, but part of me does think like, I'm not sure if we are hitting diminishing

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returns to them, because we have so many and all the recordings are up. And it's kind of like, what

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more can be said? But there's still a lot of very confused people out there. I think the biggest

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confusion is that this is some kind of big change to Bitcoin, which it's sort of, it is a big change to

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Bitcoin as an idea, but the software, it's just counting the 13,000, which it already does. It

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already counts the 13,000 blocks, for example. But this is just doing it via an opcode that releases

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the releases funds. So it's actually probably the smallest, quote, change unquote, in Bitcoin

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soft fork history. Maybe not, maybe the requirement to include the coinbase height, the height of block

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height in a coinbase. That's pretty small. But other than that, it's pretty small. My headphones are

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all tangled here. So yes, very quiet so far.

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Hey, what's up, Paul? I'm kind of quiet now. So I just wanted to take a moment to ask you some

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questions. Do you think it's possible for Bitcoin to continue to be successful and continue to be a

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leading market cap, even without sidechains and drivechains? Do you think that that is possible?

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I certainly think it's possible. I think it's a foolish thing, you know, because to me, it's a zero

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risk. The sidechain experiment is zero risk. So I think I, you know, I hope that it's the case that it's

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just like that we can just, you know, like, so people tell a story that's just we're going to millions of

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dollars per coin, and there's, all we have to do is wait. And, you know, if they're, you know, I hope those

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people are right, that would be pretty convenient. I think it's foolish to bet everything on that,

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especially when the people saying that appear to have no idea like how Bitcoin works, or what what's

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going on under the hood. They confuse terms, they have no idea like the state of the art of various

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technologies, such as the lightning network that we rely on. So it's clear that the more people the

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people who are really, really knowledgeable, are more sober. And people who know only a little are

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like the, the crazy promoters. So I think it's certainly possible because Bitcoin is a great idea.

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There's no good competitor to Bitcoin right now. Even Ethereum, which is more popular in terms of

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fees is not really like, reliable, seen as reliable today, although that could change because it's had

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a shrinking net, a net shrinking supply ever since they switched to proof of stake. I think proof of

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stake is a big mistake. Proof of mistake, but and it's but I think it won't I don't it's proof of stake

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is similar enough to proof of work that I think it's unlikely to be enough if lots of other things go

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their way. So so there's currently no good competitor, etc. So I think it's possible that Bitcoin will

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just continue to do very well. People will want, you know, the existing fiat currencies do such a bad

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job, that people will switch to Bitcoin and Bitcoin has great momentum. Bitcoin has a long history. So I

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think it's possible to answer your question.

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Yeah, thanks. I share your view that it's possible, maybe even likely. And I share your view that it's

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concerning that, like, a lot of people do not really understand lightning, and they don't realize how a lot

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of it can eventually become all custodial. And also how there's really not much downside to trying this idea.

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Yeah, I guess that was my question. I'm wondering if there's anything else I can think of. There's other

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people that want to come up and talk. That's fine, too.

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Okay, I have another one. Okay, good. These are these, basically, these ordinals and inscriptions creates like a

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base load of fee market. The way I see it is, now that it's a lot easier for people to put data on chain, very

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accessible for an average user. Somebody will always want to put data for, let's say, one sat or two sats per

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V byte. Until unless, you know, Bitcoin can like really, really rise to too expensive, then maybe, you know,

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maybe then that would disincentivize them. But as Bitcoin prices aren't that expensive, one sat per V byte is

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kind of like a really good price to put data on chain. Do you think that's the fee market, at least a

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little bit?

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Absolutely. This is a very old idea that the demand for like high fidelity, highly replicated, highly

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available storage, that there's always this demand for that. And that is a backstop for like using the block

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space. It's a very old idea. Greg Maxwell has a famous quote, along those lines, that the demand is infinite at

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the zero sat rate, which of course can literally be true, but generally true. So and in particular, the funny

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thing about ordinals is that this it's just seems like this, you think this idea is really, really silly, but it

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just it's never going away. It's always it always comes back, you know, ICOs, NFT, ERC, BRC, ordinal

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inscription, colored coins, MasterCoin, Omni, Tether, whatever, like all this stuff is it constantly comes

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back. So it's just something that people like. And it's better to do it on a specialized chain. And it's also

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interesting that I in the BitAssets blog post that I wrote many years ago, I don't know how many years, but it's a

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lot, maybe it's 2018, maybe it's earlier, I don't even remember. But I wrote that it might be good to just number

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the assets so that they have a chronological order. And so they have the older ones have a little bit more rarity

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and distinctiveness. And that is interesting, because that is the big drama of this week is the numbering of the

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BitAssets. So that's kind of a, I was onto something there.

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Yeah, it's a bit of a drama. Um, do you think that the OP_RETURN limit should be raised? Like, should be no limit?

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Yes. And in fact, the thing is, it's only what they call a standardness limit. So it's nothing will, it's all if

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someone mines a block that has an OP_RETURN that is fills everything up, takes up the whole one megabyte block.

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So the current limit is just like a mempool policy standardness rule.

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Yeah, what will happen is if you if someone finds the block, then your node will accept it. But if you try to

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broadcast it, you're it will kind of be a little ostracized. You know what I mean? Like no one will, no one will pass

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the transaction.

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It won't propagate through the network. But if you have a block with this, then it's current validity, like it's valid,

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valid block.

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It's kind of amusing that my view is very parallel to Peter Todd's view on RBF, where I say something like, someone

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could write software that converts a one megabyte file or a file of any size into a series of transactions and back

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like a one to one mapping from like, what would it look like, you know, like, which is basically more or less what

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stamps is, as far as I understand it, where it's like, just converts into just dumping outputs everywhere into the

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into a transaction. Yeah. And so you could do that. And since you can always do that, to me, I just think, well, what's

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the point of, you know, the someone is someone who's willing to pay for the block space? Why not just let them use it

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directly? Why add overhead bytes. And I also think it's a good idea. I think there's plenty of applications that are

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actually much cooler than merely ordinals and inscriptions. And I like this, this idea of CoinNews that I like, which is

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like, you can put news there, and then everyone will see it. You have like a little code, people subscribes, like little

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lists or something is all sorted by fee. And so you just see like the highest fee thing each week or each day or

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whatever, however you set it up. And so I think that the block space is a cool medium, and it's going to be used for all

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kinds of things in the future. But the fundamental point is that why would you insist that use of the blockchain take a

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certain form? You know, like, like, that's what I'm trying to say is anything like a JPEG can be turned into a bunch of

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transactions. And back, you just have a conversion.

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I agree. I think also that even like, um, you know, Bitcoin to Bitcoin transfers, they're really just data, and you're just

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paying for this data to be on chain. Like, if you zoom out a little bit, so it's kind of arbitrary what data you want to be on

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chain, as long as you pay for it, it could be a Bitcoin transaction, or it could be a different type of data, as long as

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you're paying for that data. I think that, you know, it's fine.

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Yeah. And if we ask miners to do something other than maximize their revenue, then I think we are on a dark road. And it

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will lead like to complete chaos and nonsense. So I just think that but whereas if we instead just say,

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to take the other side of the argument, I think that they want to disincentivize other type of Bitcoin use to make it like at

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least cheaper for the, you know, the use that they want for the like, for the time being, eventually, obviously, it will

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become more expensive. But maybe for the time being, they want it to be cheaper. So they kind of want to disincentivize the

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other use cases.

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Yeah, I certainly understand that. Like if I made I put all this work into making like a prediction market sidechain, and

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then like people are just, they're just putting like, silly images in that blockchain all day, I would be like, wait a

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minute, I don't want this, this isn't what I wanted. But I think the thing to do about that is make your your use case very

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good so that there is fee demand. And then make it so that those people who want to do that type of thing have a blockchain

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that fully supports that, which is like, you know, this is just good organization, you just say, well, go to the BitAsset

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sidechain, you can make all these silly, silly assets with images and stuff.

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Well, like people might do it on the on the other, you know, chain that's that's made for it. But I think that there's still a

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novelty doing it on the base layer. Maybe it's more like a luxury or more Beblam good. You know, if it's more expensive, it's

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harder to do it on the base chain, like there will always be some sort of demand to do it on the base chain, and then it will be

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more easily accessible for like the majority to do it on this other layer that's cheaper. But I don't think I agree from the

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desire of the base chain.

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Well, yeah, I've always kind of waited for it to go away. And that's what I was trying to say at the beginning about how

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people just keep coming up with this idea over and over and over again. And we live in a world with many assets, you know, you

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have the S&P 500, you have stock in Facebook or whatever, or Meta, I guess, people always changing their names. But so people

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like it, I guess they like MasterCoin, they like colored coins, like they like this idea. So it is not going away. People like

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it, right? Like even in 2013, 2014, but I think even before Hal Finney with the crypto trading cards.

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Yeah, true, true. But I think the NFT thing is a little bit more like normie friendly, because like trying to teach people about

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Bitcoin in early years, nobody really cared like in real life circles. Maybe some people might have cared, but it was very rare for

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people to understand like hard money, and like the properties or the use case of like Silk Road or anything like that. But it was

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just it was very like foreign. But then like, you know, ICOs come around and maybe more people are interested because now they

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understand that speculation that's investing, you know, and whatever it is, they're speculating on something that can

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potentially go up. But then when NFTs came around, it seemed like that was a bigger, broader use case, people were able to

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understand, oh, it's a picture. Okay, I'm buying this picture. And they were able to resonate with this profile picture. And I've

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seen way more people onboarded, maybe it's just because every cycle, there's more people. But I've just seen way more normies

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onboarded from from NFTs than than, you know, than any of the previous cycles. So I think that there's something to that.

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It is weird. I know, it's funny, like a product market fit, like phrase, it's kind of like, this is what people like, I guess, for

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now, you know, well, you know, it's weird, because we have in, in Bitcoin, we have deemphasized the whole payments,

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remittances, like things we used to emphasize. We have deemphasized all that, which is kind of funny, because there's a little

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bit of an unexpected, ironic twist, which is that they're pushing so hard to purge many use cases, it's only left the most, the

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most the one that could, like, like flout the rules is I guess what I'm trying to say. But whatever we now we have a Miguel and

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Flavor who have come up, so we should maybe let them speak.

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For sure.

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Hello, yes, I could hear you a little. Okay, great.

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So I've been sending your bit like for two years, and I found out there's nothing doing like a trustless peg, trustless peg out like

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this. So I thought it was an interesting idea. And so we tested, it was good. Everything was working. And then a couple of years

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later, Fiatjaf was pushing this in Brazil, like, they made a video with Bitcoineros here in Brazil. And again, this idea came up

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again in my mind. And I decided to talk with a few Bitcoineros in Brazil, Bitcoiners in Brazil. And the main thing that I've, the main

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critique that I got was, oh, you're pushing shitcoin to Bitcoin. But they don't understand that.

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Right, it's not true. It's 0% true, right? There's already all that stuff that we mentioned, tarot, RGB, ordinals, inscriptions, all

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that stuff already allows shitcoins on any blockchain. So this does nothing at all to bring shitcoins to Bitcoin. I don't know.

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So that is the main thing. Even if you explain to them, like, man, we don't want to change Bitcoin. We want to ossify, right? So BIP300

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could be the possibility to do that. Because if you want to have like your own agenda to push to lightning, to stable lightning or

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something like that, I want to CTV, I want APO or any other soft forks. Okay, that's okay. You can get that. Do a copycat of

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Bitcoin, do it in a drivechain, test that, put ARK on that, put Enigma, anything on that. And then if you have enough

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peggings, enough people using that, and you can showcase to everybody, and it's retro compatibility, have retro

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compatibility with the main chain code, we can push that later in 30 years of trying that. And with the free market showing

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to us like a signal to everybody, with peggings and pegouts working.

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That's a good signal, you know?

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So then we could have like a good argument

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against the progressive that want to have like

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their own agenda to push code to the core.

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We can have like, okay, so do it in a drivechain first.

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If you have enough peggings and enough users,

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and everything is okay, no wardrobes,

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no other things that people are complaining right now,

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we can push back to the code, to the reference code.

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So that is the main reason that people are not getting.

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And the other reason is like, I live in Brazil,

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I live in a poor country, and it's impossible.

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Like if you have like a third degree math,

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it's impossible to have everybody using UTXOs.

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So come on guys, it's impossible.

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If you want to onboard Brazil,

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it's impossible to have like important UTXOs.

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So we need to have a way to split Satoshis into small pieces.

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So it's divisibility that we want to, not inflation.

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If you want to push like drivechain to a shitcoin,

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oh, do it on Litecoin.

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That was the main critique that I had.

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Do it on Litecoin.

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Why?

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Why should it pump a scammer coin?

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Why?

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Because Litecoin is competing with the base layer.

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Not the usability that Litecoins provide us,

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but the Litecoin itself, the token, the fucking token.

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I don't know why people are don't get in this.

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Really, if you want to like every human on earth on Bitcoin,

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00:21:23,658 --> 00:21:27,819
we need to have like a way to divide a UTXO.

184
00:21:27,819 --> 00:21:31,218
And for me, like I've been studying this bit for two years

185
00:21:31,218 --> 00:21:33,578
and there's nothing else that we can do

186
00:21:33,578 --> 00:21:36,419
like this in a trustless way, you know?

187
00:21:36,419 --> 00:21:37,578
So thank God, man.

188
00:21:37,578 --> 00:21:41,819
And anyways, it was just a rant

189
00:21:41,819 --> 00:21:43,419
because I don't have to complain about anything.

190
00:21:43,419 --> 00:21:46,499
If I have to, I am not a protocol designer.

191
00:21:48,019 --> 00:21:51,179
The things that I maybe don't like is

192
00:21:51,179 --> 00:21:54,298
maybe we can use like a Merkle tree or something

193
00:21:54,298 --> 00:21:59,298
to don't push like the message with the weight.

194
00:22:00,658 --> 00:22:02,218
I don't know.

195
00:22:02,218 --> 00:22:03,379
I don't have any complaints, you know?

196
00:22:03,379 --> 00:22:06,379
I don't know what to critique about the way that you did

197
00:22:06,379 --> 00:22:08,379
because I've kind of agreed with everything.

198
00:22:08,379 --> 00:22:11,938
So anyways, just a rant.

199
00:22:11,938 --> 00:22:13,539
Sorry, man.

200
00:22:13,539 --> 00:22:15,658
Well, I mean, that's how I feel as well.

201
00:22:15,658 --> 00:22:18,418
I think that, you know, if you go to layer2labs.com

202
00:22:18,418 --> 00:22:21,339
slash friends and you'd see that there's a lot

203
00:22:21,339 --> 00:22:25,298
of very top people who also feel sort of, you know,

204
00:22:25,298 --> 00:22:26,658
they're thinking along those lines,

205
00:22:26,658 --> 00:22:27,899
like this is a good idea.

206
00:22:27,899 --> 00:22:29,259
We should try this.

207
00:22:29,259 --> 00:22:32,858
We need, somehow we need to get a billion UTXOs.

208
00:22:33,819 --> 00:22:35,658
We don't want custodial.

209
00:22:36,619 --> 00:22:38,938
That's, you know, that's admitting defeat.

210
00:22:39,979 --> 00:22:42,179
So yeah, I agree with all that.

211
00:22:42,179 --> 00:22:45,179
I think the reason it's unpopular

212
00:22:45,179 --> 00:22:48,179
among a small number of loud people

213
00:22:48,179 --> 00:22:52,179
is actually because it actually competes

214
00:22:52,179 --> 00:22:53,498
with them in some way.

215
00:22:53,498 --> 00:22:55,979
So some of them are like people who work on competing.

216
00:22:55,979 --> 00:22:59,179
If you work on, if you really work hard on lightning

217
00:22:59,179 --> 00:23:03,498
or RGB or even liquid or whatever, then it might.

218
00:23:03,498 --> 00:23:05,498
So it might make you not look so great,

219
00:23:05,498 --> 00:23:09,899
especially if you, a lot of people sell the infallibility,

220
00:23:09,899 --> 00:23:13,418
like the whole sailor safety and kind of pipeline

221
00:23:13,418 --> 00:23:18,339
of like just selling everyone on big, big wishful thinking

222
00:23:18,339 --> 00:23:20,899
that everything's going to be perfect and,

223
00:23:20,899 --> 00:23:23,778
which would be great if it was, that would be great.

224
00:23:23,778 --> 00:23:24,619
You know what I mean?

225
00:23:24,619 --> 00:23:26,418
And I wouldn't be complaining if that was the case.

226
00:23:26,418 --> 00:23:28,658
But again, like they don't seem to really know.

227
00:23:28,658 --> 00:23:30,138
They don't really know like the details.

228
00:23:30,138 --> 00:23:32,938
So they say that, but then if we say, okay,

229
00:23:32,938 --> 00:23:35,259
if we work really hard, we can improve this.

230
00:23:36,019 --> 00:23:37,498
We can copy Zcash.

231
00:23:37,498 --> 00:23:38,578
We can copy EVM.

232
00:23:38,578 --> 00:23:39,979
We can copy Bitcoin Cash.

233
00:23:39,979 --> 00:23:41,539
They just think, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

234
00:23:41,539 --> 00:23:44,099
I've been telling everyone that Ethereum sucks.

235
00:23:44,099 --> 00:23:45,819
I've been telling everyone Bitcoin Cash sucks.

236
00:23:45,819 --> 00:23:48,778
I've been telling everyone that all these things suck.

237
00:23:48,778 --> 00:23:53,778
So they've kind of just weirdly contradicts them,

238
00:23:55,498 --> 00:23:58,979
which is bizarre because it means that those people

239
00:23:58,979 --> 00:24:01,779
are really hurting Bitcoin for no reason

240
00:24:01,818 --> 00:24:05,019
because the best way, you know,

241
00:24:05,019 --> 00:24:07,339
to defeat those things would be,

242
00:24:07,339 --> 00:24:09,378
it's like you have a cell phone and it has a camera in it.

243
00:24:09,378 --> 00:24:11,098
You know, if you really want to,

244
00:24:11,098 --> 00:24:13,258
you want to say phones are better than digital cameras.

245
00:24:13,258 --> 00:24:16,659
Sorry, man, this is a wrong pitch, man,

246
00:24:16,659 --> 00:24:21,659
because the right pitch is you don't need to throw away

247
00:24:22,499 --> 00:24:25,098
all the infrastructure that we are building right now.

248
00:24:25,098 --> 00:24:27,298
We can test it in a drivechain.

249
00:24:27,298 --> 00:24:28,818
You don't have to throw anything away

250
00:24:28,818 --> 00:24:33,578
because imagine if we have like 256 drivechains.

251
00:24:33,578 --> 00:24:34,578
I think you're right.

252
00:24:34,578 --> 00:24:36,818
I think they kind of feel like it is though.

253
00:24:36,818 --> 00:24:39,258
I'm just trying to answer your question.

254
00:24:39,258 --> 00:24:40,779
No, no, no, yeah, but you're right.

255
00:24:40,779 --> 00:24:41,619
You're right.

256
00:24:41,619 --> 00:24:42,538
You're completely right.

257
00:24:42,538 --> 00:24:43,619
You're correct.

258
00:24:43,619 --> 00:24:46,098
But you're getting the wrong marketing.

259
00:24:46,098 --> 00:24:48,698
You know, you're looking to the wrong,

260
00:24:48,698 --> 00:24:51,899
you have to convince them, not critique them.

261
00:24:51,899 --> 00:24:52,739
That's the point.

262
00:24:52,739 --> 00:24:53,578
That's the whole point.

263
00:24:53,578 --> 00:24:54,779
You have to onboard everybody.

264
00:24:54,779 --> 00:24:59,619
And if you like, for example, Bitcoin Core developers,

265
00:24:59,619 --> 00:25:01,818
it's a huge responsibility for you guys

266
00:25:01,818 --> 00:25:03,619
to push any soft fork.

267
00:25:03,619 --> 00:25:04,978
I know that.

268
00:25:04,978 --> 00:25:07,619
That's why B300 is going to prevent you

269
00:25:07,619 --> 00:25:10,899
and okay, do it in a drivechain first,

270
00:25:10,899 --> 00:25:11,899
and then we'll see that.

271
00:25:11,899 --> 00:25:14,059
So it's going to relieve them

272
00:25:14,059 --> 00:25:17,818
from the scene of doing anything wrong, you know?

273
00:25:17,818 --> 00:25:18,659
So that's the pitch for them.

274
00:25:18,659 --> 00:25:19,499
Yeah, I know.

275
00:25:19,499 --> 00:25:20,899
Yeah, I think you're right.

276
00:25:20,899 --> 00:25:21,739
That's good, I like that.

277
00:25:21,739 --> 00:25:23,899
The pitch for the entrepreneurs is, come on,

278
00:25:23,899 --> 00:25:26,858
you're going to have like 256 drivechains.

279
00:25:26,858 --> 00:25:30,179
You're going to build a lot of bridges between them.

280
00:25:30,179 --> 00:25:33,619
You're going to form the yield of six months

281
00:25:33,619 --> 00:25:36,138
of having a UTXO locked in a space.

282
00:25:36,138 --> 00:25:37,418
So come on, this,

283
00:25:38,619 --> 00:25:43,619
you're, I think you're,

284
00:25:43,858 --> 00:25:46,939
maybe you're just tired of having like that,

285
00:25:46,939 --> 00:25:51,138
so much conversation and a lot of people pointing you,

286
00:25:51,138 --> 00:25:53,619
like, oh, you're a shit coin, you're a big blocker,

287
00:25:54,339 --> 00:25:55,179
or something like that,

288
00:25:55,179 --> 00:25:56,019
because you're now doing to me,

289
00:25:56,019 --> 00:25:57,059
that's really strange,

290
00:25:57,059 --> 00:25:58,779
because if you see my records,

291
00:25:58,779 --> 00:26:01,818
it's really weird, you know?

292
00:26:01,818 --> 00:26:06,459
So people are complaining the usability of new tokens

293
00:26:06,459 --> 00:26:07,899
to shit coinery, you know?

294
00:26:07,899 --> 00:26:11,818
So they are not getting the divisibility part

295
00:26:11,818 --> 00:26:14,899
and the inflation problem, you know?

296
00:26:14,899 --> 00:26:16,418
That's the main thing here.

297
00:26:16,418 --> 00:26:21,119
And when you pitch to a search user, you know,

298
00:26:23,939 --> 00:26:25,499
it's hard to complain about them, you know?

299
00:26:25,499 --> 00:26:29,578
So anyways, that's, maybe that's my own critique,

300
00:26:29,578 --> 00:26:33,499
like the marketing team thing, you know?

301
00:26:33,499 --> 00:26:37,739
Yeah, it's difficult, because I think-

302
00:26:37,739 --> 00:26:39,858
Oh, another rant, man, sorry.

303
00:26:39,858 --> 00:26:42,418
It's, well, it's kind of like,

304
00:26:45,179 --> 00:26:47,818
I don't know, I think a lot of people are in bad faith,

305
00:26:47,818 --> 00:26:49,659
so it's kind of like, no matter what we would say,

306
00:26:49,659 --> 00:26:52,378
they would twist it, I kind of think,

307
00:26:52,459 --> 00:26:56,019
is my suspicion.

308
00:26:56,858 --> 00:26:58,978
So, but, you know, if we go like really carefully,

309
00:26:58,978 --> 00:27:00,219
and we go through like all the risks,

310
00:27:00,219 --> 00:27:02,258
and people say, oh, it sounds risky.

311
00:27:02,258 --> 00:27:04,739
And then if I say, well, there really aren't any risks,

312
00:27:04,739 --> 00:27:06,858
because it's just some opcode counting 13,000,

313
00:27:06,858 --> 00:27:08,779
that we could just shut off,

314
00:27:08,779 --> 00:27:11,339
we could have it go back to what it was doing before,

315
00:27:11,339 --> 00:27:14,459
at any time, and so there's no risk,

316
00:27:14,459 --> 00:27:15,978
and then people are like, oh, there's no risk.

317
00:27:15,978 --> 00:27:19,258
Oh, it sounds like you're just making things up.

318
00:27:19,459 --> 00:27:23,619
I think that a lot of people have trouble understanding

319
00:27:23,619 --> 00:27:25,459
what is the benefit of this.

320
00:27:25,459 --> 00:27:28,578
And I think that what Miguel said was really valuable,

321
00:27:28,578 --> 00:27:31,818
where if you, obviously, to every different audience,

322
00:27:31,818 --> 00:27:33,019
there's a different benefit, right?

323
00:27:33,019 --> 00:27:35,179
If you talk to somebody that is interested

324
00:27:35,179 --> 00:27:36,378
in experimenting on EVM,

325
00:27:36,378 --> 00:27:38,538
you can show them that side of it.

326
00:27:38,538 --> 00:27:40,698
Somebody like a Bitcoin Core developer,

327
00:27:40,698 --> 00:27:42,779
you can, like Miguel said, you can show them the side of,

328
00:27:42,779 --> 00:27:44,739
well, you guys can test on a drivechain.

329
00:27:44,739 --> 00:27:49,219
To every audience, you got to find a benefit for it,

330
00:27:50,019 --> 00:27:52,138
aside from the FUD that they give,

331
00:27:52,138 --> 00:27:54,179
and showing how that's incorrect,

332
00:27:54,179 --> 00:27:55,578
they're still not seeing a benefit,

333
00:27:55,578 --> 00:27:57,298
but if they can see a benefit to it,

334
00:27:57,298 --> 00:27:58,219
and obviously, every audience

335
00:27:58,219 --> 00:27:59,619
will have their own benefit to it,

336
00:27:59,619 --> 00:28:01,499
then maybe, if they see, all right,

337
00:28:01,499 --> 00:28:03,219
there can be something positive from it,

338
00:28:03,219 --> 00:28:05,059
now let's see if there's negatives.

339
00:28:05,978 --> 00:28:07,818
I just found that really valuable, what Miguel said.

340
00:28:07,818 --> 00:28:09,659
Yeah, well, I think you guys are right,

341
00:28:09,659 --> 00:28:11,258
but I mean, at the same time, people ask,

342
00:28:11,258 --> 00:28:16,179
and I say, well, Zcash privacy and immediate global scale,

343
00:28:17,138 --> 00:28:21,138
people don't, people just don't pick it up for some reason,

344
00:28:21,138 --> 00:28:23,299
but I think one thing that will help is,

345
00:28:24,618 --> 00:28:28,258
we will, we're making the software easier and easier to use,

346
00:28:28,258 --> 00:28:29,539
and I think at that point,

347
00:28:31,058 --> 00:28:32,618
it will click for a lot of people.

348
00:28:32,618 --> 00:28:34,299
I'm wondering if there's going to be

349
00:28:34,299 --> 00:28:37,138
like a prolonged high fee environment,

350
00:28:37,138 --> 00:28:39,498
I don't know, maybe like 100 cents per V-byte,

351
00:28:39,498 --> 00:28:40,339
or even higher.

352
00:28:40,339 --> 00:28:41,779
Yeah, some people think that, yeah.

353
00:28:41,779 --> 00:28:44,459
They think that, they call that fee-pocalypse,

354
00:28:44,459 --> 00:28:45,299
the idea here.

355
00:28:45,299 --> 00:28:49,938
I think that might actually get people more open-minded.

356
00:28:49,938 --> 00:28:51,419
What do you think?

357
00:28:51,419 --> 00:28:53,818
Because I heard from, I don't know,

358
00:28:53,818 --> 00:28:54,938
like, I want to ask you about this,

359
00:28:54,938 --> 00:28:56,659
because I heard possibly-

360
00:28:56,659 --> 00:28:58,498
Then we'll go to Flavor though,

361
00:28:58,498 --> 00:28:59,659
but ask me about it.

362
00:28:59,659 --> 00:29:01,859
Do you think it's possible that the fees

363
00:29:01,859 --> 00:29:03,979
will be high for a long period of time?

364
00:29:03,979 --> 00:29:05,258
I kind of don't.

365
00:29:05,258 --> 00:29:07,539
I personally just don't see it.

366
00:29:07,539 --> 00:29:09,899
I mean, maybe, I mean, define high,

367
00:29:09,899 --> 00:29:14,219
like more than like $10 per 200 bytes or something?

368
00:29:14,258 --> 00:29:16,058
Hundreds of dollars per transaction.

369
00:29:17,019 --> 00:29:18,299
I mean, I just don't see that,

370
00:29:18,299 --> 00:29:20,539
because I feel like a normal person

371
00:29:20,539 --> 00:29:21,938
would be so annoyed by that,

372
00:29:21,938 --> 00:29:23,578
and they would just say,

373
00:29:23,578 --> 00:29:26,219
I'm not using this, so I'm not using it as frequently.

374
00:29:26,219 --> 00:29:28,378
They just cut, they batch 10,

375
00:29:28,378 --> 00:29:30,339
instead of transacting five times a week,

376
00:29:30,339 --> 00:29:32,698
they just say, I'll get you at the end of the month.

377
00:29:32,698 --> 00:29:34,378
Then they reduced it by a factor of 20.

378
00:29:34,378 --> 00:29:36,459
If demand continues to rise,

379
00:29:36,459 --> 00:29:38,019
there will be always like people

380
00:29:38,019 --> 00:29:39,859
that will batch for $100 per transaction,

381
00:29:39,859 --> 00:29:41,618
and there will always be demand for that.

382
00:29:41,618 --> 00:29:43,099
And eventually there will be demand

383
00:29:43,099 --> 00:29:44,459
for $200 per transaction.

384
00:29:44,459 --> 00:29:46,219
Eventually there'll be demand for,

385
00:29:46,219 --> 00:29:48,019
it's the idea of the Bitcoin banks,

386
00:29:48,019 --> 00:29:50,618
of like just, it's gonna be used as a settlement layer

387
00:29:50,618 --> 00:29:54,378
of like very economically dense transactions.

388
00:29:54,378 --> 00:29:55,979
Well, I think that could only happen

389
00:29:55,979 --> 00:29:59,299
if there was lots and lots of transacting happening

390
00:29:59,299 --> 00:30:03,258
in some kind of second layer, custodial included.

391
00:30:03,258 --> 00:30:05,979
So I don't know if,

392
00:30:07,178 --> 00:30:08,899
I mean, because already it's quite a bit.

393
00:30:08,899 --> 00:30:11,498
It's already like 2000 or so,

394
00:30:11,498 --> 00:30:15,058
2500 maybe, for 10 minutes.

395
00:30:15,058 --> 00:30:16,738
And there's 1000 blocks a week.

396
00:30:16,738 --> 00:30:19,339
So it's open Sunday and Saturday,

397
00:30:19,339 --> 00:30:21,178
unlike many banks.

398
00:30:21,178 --> 00:30:26,178
So that is 2.5 million a week.

399
00:30:27,899 --> 00:30:29,738
And that's a lot.

400
00:30:29,738 --> 00:30:30,818
I just, that's terrible.

401
00:30:30,818 --> 00:30:34,178
Because if you're comparing it to,

402
00:30:34,178 --> 00:30:35,539
like a data availability layer,

403
00:30:35,539 --> 00:30:37,099
that's just immutable data,

404
00:30:37,099 --> 00:30:38,578
that's gonna be there forever.

405
00:30:38,578 --> 00:30:40,058
And I think that the cost of that

406
00:30:40,299 --> 00:30:44,099
is actually way higher than the current market realizes.

407
00:30:44,099 --> 00:30:47,019
It's just, I think that not enough people really realize,

408
00:30:47,019 --> 00:30:50,299
you know, like just the data availability of Bitcoin.

409
00:30:50,299 --> 00:30:51,738
Once people start to realize that,

410
00:30:51,738 --> 00:30:53,099
and like maybe other applications,

411
00:30:53,099 --> 00:30:55,058
maybe other use cases, whatever it is,

412
00:30:55,058 --> 00:30:57,578
and maybe just simple economic transactions,

413
00:30:57,578 --> 00:30:58,979
maybe that too.

414
00:30:58,979 --> 00:31:01,299
But I think as there's more demand for Bitcoin,

415
00:31:01,299 --> 00:31:03,378
like just the fees are gonna continue to go up.

416
00:31:03,378 --> 00:31:05,219
I could be wrong about that.

417
00:31:05,219 --> 00:31:07,698
Obviously average users would not be paying for it.

418
00:31:07,698 --> 00:31:09,258
But I think that there will always be demand

419
00:31:09,258 --> 00:31:11,058
higher and higher eventually.

420
00:31:11,058 --> 00:31:11,899
I don't know.

421
00:31:11,899 --> 00:31:13,419
Yeah, but doesn't the, when the fees go up though,

422
00:31:13,419 --> 00:31:14,779
doesn't that, I mean, there's a supply curve

423
00:31:14,779 --> 00:31:15,618
and a demand curve.

424
00:31:15,618 --> 00:31:17,899
So it's like, doesn't, when the fees go up,

425
00:31:17,899 --> 00:31:21,258
more people start to look for alternatives, I think,

426
00:31:21,258 --> 00:31:22,219
is my guess.

427
00:31:22,219 --> 00:31:23,938
Eventually there'd be a demand.

428
00:31:23,938 --> 00:31:26,459
It is because the fee is $100 per transaction

429
00:31:26,459 --> 00:31:28,058
that people would be like,

430
00:31:28,058 --> 00:31:29,618
I need to find a way to not use it.

431
00:31:29,618 --> 00:31:31,378
This is a good argument because if the fees go up,

432
00:31:31,378 --> 00:31:33,419
obviously people will just use other chains, right?

433
00:31:33,419 --> 00:31:34,258
Like the average user,

434
00:31:34,258 --> 00:31:36,299
they don't care that much to use the base layer.

435
00:31:36,299 --> 00:31:37,859
Not enough, yeah.

436
00:31:37,859 --> 00:31:39,299
Right, but then they don't care enough

437
00:31:39,299 --> 00:31:41,698
to pay $100 per transaction on the base layer.

438
00:31:41,698 --> 00:31:43,419
They could just use another chain.

439
00:31:43,419 --> 00:31:44,258
Yeah.

440
00:31:44,258 --> 00:31:45,938
If you lower your time preference,

441
00:31:45,938 --> 00:31:48,818
you can earn a lot of satoshis

442
00:31:48,818 --> 00:31:51,979
if you don't make the transaction when the fees are high.

443
00:31:51,979 --> 00:31:53,299
That's the whole point.

444
00:31:53,299 --> 00:31:56,498
Yeah, that's what I mean by the base load, right?

445
00:31:56,498 --> 00:31:57,899
Like there's always gonna be people,

446
00:31:57,899 --> 00:31:58,738
like as you can see from-

447
00:31:58,738 --> 00:32:00,419
There's gonna be a demand to hold.

448
00:32:00,419 --> 00:32:01,859
That's the point.

449
00:32:01,859 --> 00:32:02,979
That's the whole point.

450
00:32:02,979 --> 00:32:03,818
When the fees are high,

451
00:32:03,818 --> 00:32:05,459
there's gonna be a demand to hold

452
00:32:06,419 --> 00:32:07,258
because you're gonna earn-

453
00:32:07,659 --> 00:32:11,019
Yeah, I just think that like eventually

454
00:32:11,019 --> 00:32:14,578
people will value transacting on the base layer

455
00:32:14,578 --> 00:32:15,938
and it will be more expensive.

456
00:32:15,938 --> 00:32:17,339
They'll be okay with paying for it.

457
00:32:17,339 --> 00:32:18,899
Not the average people, not the average people,

458
00:32:18,899 --> 00:32:21,339
but like institutions and settlement layers

459
00:32:21,339 --> 00:32:23,258
are going to value making their,

460
00:32:23,258 --> 00:32:25,618
like if a nation state trades with another nation state,

461
00:32:25,618 --> 00:32:27,219
they're gonna wanna do it on the base layer

462
00:32:27,219 --> 00:32:29,099
and they might not wanna do it on any other chain

463
00:32:29,099 --> 00:32:30,818
because that's just not good enough for them.

464
00:32:30,818 --> 00:32:32,578
They want military grade technology,

465
00:32:32,578 --> 00:32:33,938
like military grade security.

466
00:32:33,938 --> 00:32:35,578
They want the best security as possible

467
00:32:35,578 --> 00:32:38,378
and they'll be willing to pay for that.

468
00:32:38,378 --> 00:32:39,219
I don't know.

469
00:32:39,219 --> 00:32:40,698
That's kind of how I see it,

470
00:32:40,698 --> 00:32:42,178
but I don't think it's anytime soon,

471
00:32:42,178 --> 00:32:45,178
but it might be that that will happen.

472
00:32:46,698 --> 00:32:49,378
I mean, in what other context do people pay?

473
00:32:49,378 --> 00:32:50,698
Like what if someone said

474
00:32:50,698 --> 00:32:53,378
every time you're going to refuel your car,

475
00:32:53,378 --> 00:32:57,738
it's gonna switch from being like a certain amount

476
00:32:57,738 --> 00:32:59,979
and it's gonna be like 10 or a hundred times more.

477
00:32:59,979 --> 00:33:00,818
People would just be like,

478
00:33:00,818 --> 00:33:02,299
well, I'm kind of annoyed at this.

479
00:33:02,299 --> 00:33:04,818
And they'll think maybe I'll Uber,

480
00:33:04,818 --> 00:33:05,779
maybe I'll take the bus,

481
00:33:05,779 --> 00:33:07,219
maybe I'll move to someplace.

482
00:33:07,219 --> 00:33:08,058
Yeah.

483
00:33:08,058 --> 00:33:09,178
I'll move to Manhattan.

484
00:33:09,178 --> 00:33:11,899
The way I see it is the demand is gonna be from,

485
00:33:11,899 --> 00:33:13,258
you know, custodial services,

486
00:33:13,258 --> 00:33:15,258
other layers of custodial services,

487
00:33:15,258 --> 00:33:16,618
banks within each other,

488
00:33:16,618 --> 00:33:17,899
you know, nation states within each other,

489
00:33:17,899 --> 00:33:18,738
things like that.

490
00:33:18,738 --> 00:33:21,378
But then they're paying like a hundred dollars

491
00:33:21,378 --> 00:33:25,339
per transaction for 2.5 million transactions a week.

492
00:33:25,339 --> 00:33:29,659
So they're paying like a hundred million dollars a week.

493
00:33:29,659 --> 00:33:31,618
So won't they just vertically integrate yet again

494
00:33:31,659 --> 00:33:36,539
and become custodial within their group?

495
00:33:36,539 --> 00:33:37,779
You know, they'll just say,

496
00:33:37,779 --> 00:33:39,818
well, we can save.

497
00:33:39,818 --> 00:33:41,058
Why are we giving this money?

498
00:33:41,058 --> 00:33:43,138
Why are we giving all this money to miners?

499
00:33:43,138 --> 00:33:45,659
200 million dollars a week.

500
00:33:45,659 --> 00:33:46,659
I think that kind of,

501
00:33:46,659 --> 00:33:48,219
but anyway, that's what you asked the question.

502
00:33:48,219 --> 00:33:50,258
I think it's possible, but yeah,

503
00:33:50,258 --> 00:33:52,419
I think it's a very much an uphill battle.

504
00:33:52,419 --> 00:33:56,419
And of course we see historically when the fees go up,

505
00:33:56,419 --> 00:33:57,539
people tend to complain

506
00:33:57,539 --> 00:33:59,339
and then they tend to fall right back down.

507
00:33:59,339 --> 00:34:00,818
And so they don't really,

508
00:34:00,818 --> 00:34:02,779
they don't really stay above like a dollar

509
00:34:02,779 --> 00:34:05,578
per transaction ever,

510
00:34:05,578 --> 00:34:07,578
but I mean, except in periods

511
00:34:07,578 --> 00:34:10,138
where we're having this huge price bubble

512
00:34:10,138 --> 00:34:11,459
and everyone's getting rich anyway.

513
00:34:11,459 --> 00:34:12,859
And so it doesn't really make any difference,

514
00:34:12,859 --> 00:34:15,019
but that's my thought.

515
00:34:15,019 --> 00:34:17,019
I mean, you ask, so it's a course,

516
00:34:17,019 --> 00:34:18,698
it's a tricky empirical question.

517
00:34:18,698 --> 00:34:20,419
I give you my answer.

518
00:34:20,419 --> 00:34:22,738
I say probably not, but it's possible.

519
00:34:22,738 --> 00:34:25,099
A lot of people think that with that Alex K

520
00:34:25,099 --> 00:34:27,818
and Moon Settler, they believe in the fee apocalypse also.

521
00:34:27,818 --> 00:34:30,459
So maybe you can hang out with them.

522
00:34:30,459 --> 00:34:31,618
Okay, we should go to Flavor though,

523
00:34:31,618 --> 00:34:33,859
because he's been up here this whole time.

524
00:34:33,859 --> 00:34:34,698
Flavor.

525
00:34:35,659 --> 00:34:37,099
Hey, Paul, thanks.

526
00:34:37,099 --> 00:34:38,178
My question is a little different

527
00:34:38,178 --> 00:34:40,419
than what you've been talking about.

528
00:34:40,419 --> 00:34:45,419
I wanna know if somebody asked you for advice,

529
00:34:45,419 --> 00:34:49,258
like maybe a college kid had an idea for a bit

530
00:34:49,258 --> 00:34:53,378
and they wanted advice about how to promote their bit,

531
00:34:53,378 --> 00:34:55,738
what advice would you give somebody?

532
00:34:57,938 --> 00:35:00,459
I would say it's actually at present,

533
00:35:00,459 --> 00:35:01,339
I think it's hopeless.

534
00:35:01,339 --> 00:35:03,339
I think you would want to get BIP300

535
00:35:03,339 --> 00:35:05,539
and then just do the idea on the sidechain.

536
00:35:06,539 --> 00:35:08,219
In fact, I would definitely say

537
00:35:08,219 --> 00:35:10,058
if someone's a young college kid

538
00:35:10,058 --> 00:35:12,459
and they have an idea that's significantly new,

539
00:35:13,419 --> 00:35:15,539
I think that honestly they should just launch an altcoin

540
00:35:15,539 --> 00:35:17,979
and they should give themselves a nice cut

541
00:35:17,979 --> 00:35:20,979
and they should try to make some money off of it that way.

542
00:35:20,979 --> 00:35:23,578
Because I think that the Bitcoin community

543
00:35:23,578 --> 00:35:26,459
is in a state right now where it will just reject

544
00:35:26,459 --> 00:35:29,099
all new ideas.

545
00:35:29,099 --> 00:35:30,618
And so it won't want,

546
00:35:30,618 --> 00:35:32,698
even if your idea is really, really great,

547
00:35:32,698 --> 00:35:35,539
they won't want it anyway.

548
00:35:35,539 --> 00:35:36,818
And if the idea is mediocre,

549
00:35:36,818 --> 00:35:39,058
then it's sort of like a moot point.

550
00:35:40,058 --> 00:35:41,738
And so I think that's it.

551
00:35:41,738 --> 00:35:43,459
You know, throw your reputation on the floor,

552
00:35:43,459 --> 00:35:44,498
like don't do that.

553
00:35:44,498 --> 00:35:48,138
Just build on a sidechain, please.

554
00:35:48,138 --> 00:35:48,979
Yeah.

555
00:35:48,979 --> 00:35:50,659
Well, that's what I would do if they,

556
00:35:50,659 --> 00:35:53,698
I mean, I think they should hope that BIP300 activates

557
00:35:53,698 --> 00:35:54,738
and then they can build their thing

558
00:35:54,738 --> 00:35:55,938
as a cool Bitcoin project.

559
00:35:56,459 --> 00:35:57,459
I mean, that's what I would hope,

560
00:35:57,459 --> 00:36:00,058
but I don't, someone today who has a BIP,

561
00:36:00,058 --> 00:36:02,258
like I think it's not possible

562
00:36:03,138 --> 00:36:04,818
because we already did all the things

563
00:36:04,818 --> 00:36:05,659
that you're supposed to do,

564
00:36:05,659 --> 00:36:08,138
like the mailing list conversation,

565
00:36:08,138 --> 00:36:10,859
present at conferences,

566
00:36:10,859 --> 00:36:12,178
get feedback,

567
00:36:14,659 --> 00:36:16,419
like the miner centralization thing.

568
00:36:16,419 --> 00:36:17,938
I invented blind merge mining because of that,

569
00:36:17,938 --> 00:36:19,539
but it didn't matter one bit.

570
00:36:19,539 --> 00:36:21,539
And similarly, the miners can steal.

571
00:36:21,539 --> 00:36:23,378
I moved it from two weeks to three months,

572
00:36:23,378 --> 00:36:24,899
but it didn't matter.

573
00:36:24,899 --> 00:36:28,019
So I think it's not a good idea.

574
00:36:28,019 --> 00:36:30,899
And in fact, you know, someone like Udi with,

575
00:36:30,899 --> 00:36:33,378
or Casey with Ordinals,

576
00:36:33,378 --> 00:36:35,219
where they just made,

577
00:36:35,219 --> 00:36:36,378
they wrote it in a way,

578
00:36:36,378 --> 00:36:39,258
they wrote it in a different way and just launched it.

579
00:36:39,258 --> 00:36:44,258
That is, that obviously worked better.

580
00:36:44,378 --> 00:36:47,578
So I would just launch something at this point.

581
00:36:47,578 --> 00:36:49,939
I think it was, it would have been more interesting

582
00:36:49,939 --> 00:36:51,819
if I had launched the prediction markets thing

583
00:36:51,819 --> 00:36:52,659
as an altcoin.

584
00:36:52,659 --> 00:36:54,579
It would be like in the Monero category

585
00:36:55,258 --> 00:36:58,779
of like altcoins that are in a diminished state,

586
00:36:58,779 --> 00:37:01,579
but have it like carved out a little niche.

587
00:37:01,579 --> 00:37:04,138
And I think that the more important thing

588
00:37:04,138 --> 00:37:07,378
is to be creative and to be able to actually get feedback

589
00:37:07,378 --> 00:37:09,858
from real users of your idea.

590
00:37:09,858 --> 00:37:14,779
So if you have an idea and you want to try it out,

591
00:37:14,779 --> 00:37:16,338
then I would focus on doing that.

592
00:37:16,338 --> 00:37:20,138
I would not focus on trying to persuade people in Bitcoin

593
00:37:20,138 --> 00:37:21,179
that the idea is good,

594
00:37:21,179 --> 00:37:24,738
because I think that is a misuse of valuable time.

595
00:37:24,738 --> 00:37:27,258
I'm only doing it because I think this idea is so good

596
00:37:27,258 --> 00:37:29,419
and Bitcoin, I already have, you know,

597
00:37:29,419 --> 00:37:32,138
a lot of history with Bitcoin.

598
00:37:32,138 --> 00:37:33,059
I own Bitcoin.

599
00:37:33,059 --> 00:37:34,978
And so I'm a Bitcoiner.

600
00:37:34,978 --> 00:37:37,179
It's too late for me to escape,

601
00:37:37,179 --> 00:37:40,138
but I would not even recommend that someone else do that.

602
00:37:42,458 --> 00:37:43,819
Well, I'm defending this idea

603
00:37:43,819 --> 00:37:45,738
because I think it's the right thing

604
00:37:45,738 --> 00:37:47,699
to ossify Bitcoin development

605
00:37:47,699 --> 00:37:50,258
and also give scale to Bitcoin to-

606
00:37:50,258 --> 00:37:51,098
Yeah, me too.

607
00:37:51,659 --> 00:37:52,539
That's the whole point.

608
00:37:52,539 --> 00:37:55,138
I'm not trying to scam anyone.

609
00:37:55,138 --> 00:37:57,858
I'm trying to build the thing that I love Bitcoin,

610
00:37:57,858 --> 00:38:00,338
but really, I don't want it to be my pet project.

611
00:38:00,338 --> 00:38:02,138
I want it to be for everyone.

612
00:38:02,138 --> 00:38:03,419
So that's the whole point.

613
00:38:03,419 --> 00:38:05,138
Right, yes, exactly, yes.

614
00:38:05,138 --> 00:38:05,978
I agree.

615
00:38:05,978 --> 00:38:07,498
It's a good pitch, man.

616
00:38:07,498 --> 00:38:08,738
Man, come on.

617
00:38:09,978 --> 00:38:10,978
Well, you say it's bad for me.

618
00:38:10,978 --> 00:38:13,498
The person asked like kind of a straightforward question

619
00:38:13,498 --> 00:38:14,338
now.

620
00:38:15,738 --> 00:38:18,258
So I think that they, I mean, I think you're right though,

621
00:38:18,299 --> 00:38:23,299
but well, what is that person supposed to actually do though

622
00:38:24,579 --> 00:38:27,419
between now and the activation of BIP300?

623
00:38:27,419 --> 00:38:30,579
What is that college student supposed to do?

624
00:38:30,579 --> 00:38:33,779
We are in the phase of a consensus,

625
00:38:33,779 --> 00:38:35,618
of a break of a consensus thing.

626
00:38:35,618 --> 00:38:38,978
So the point here is like to convince people.

627
00:38:40,059 --> 00:38:42,738
Like that's the whole idea, right?

628
00:38:42,738 --> 00:38:44,179
We have to convince people.

629
00:38:44,179 --> 00:38:48,098
Like I think the miners should be the first one to convince.

630
00:38:48,939 --> 00:38:49,779
I agree.

631
00:38:49,779 --> 00:38:51,779
I think many of the miners,

632
00:38:51,779 --> 00:38:54,419
well, many of the miners are very convinced,

633
00:38:54,419 --> 00:38:58,579
but they feel awkward about the whole political reality.

634
00:38:58,579 --> 00:39:01,618
But they don't have to feel awkward about it.

635
00:39:01,618 --> 00:39:02,458
Yeah, I agree.

636
00:39:02,458 --> 00:39:03,618
They have to be excited about it.

637
00:39:03,618 --> 00:39:04,819
Come on.

638
00:39:04,819 --> 00:39:07,059
We're going to board everyone.

639
00:39:07,059 --> 00:39:09,659
That's the whole thing without changing the base layer.

640
00:39:09,659 --> 00:39:11,618
Not without changing the base layer because,

641
00:39:11,618 --> 00:39:14,299
oh, if there's a security problem,

642
00:39:14,299 --> 00:39:15,419
you're not going to change it.

643
00:39:15,419 --> 00:39:16,579
No, no, we're going to change Bitcoin.

644
00:39:16,579 --> 00:39:17,738
Of course, it's a software.

645
00:39:18,419 --> 00:39:19,258
We need updates.

646
00:39:19,258 --> 00:39:20,098
That's okay.

647
00:39:20,098 --> 00:39:23,138
But we're going to ossify the new consensus break

648
00:39:23,138 --> 00:39:27,059
or the things that people are not complaining about

649
00:39:27,059 --> 00:39:28,659
and are agreeing, you know?

650
00:39:28,659 --> 00:39:31,978
So we're going to move that to another layer of discussion,

651
00:39:31,978 --> 00:39:33,858
of a free market of idea, you know?

652
00:39:33,858 --> 00:39:35,098
So there's no complaint.

653
00:39:36,539 --> 00:39:40,419
There's nothing to shame to be pro drivechains.

654
00:39:40,419 --> 00:39:41,579
That's the whole point.

655
00:39:42,978 --> 00:39:44,378
Because it's the correct thing.

656
00:39:44,378 --> 00:39:46,419
That's, at least for me, you know?

657
00:39:47,920 --> 00:40:01,480
I saw a journalist in Brazil talking about your past, because you were a guy that, I don't know, he cherry-picked a few things on your LinkedIn and made a case that you're a big blocker.

658
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,160
I know, but that's the funny thing, is that I'm not at all. It's very funny.

659
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:16,440
I'm sorry to interrupt. Thanks, Miguel. And thanks, Flavor, for your question. I don't know if you want to follow up with that. And then after, I don't know if it's possible.

660
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:25,559
But if Chris Black would like to come up, because I know he's known in the space, maybe he can ask him some questions or share some thoughts, too. But Flavor, did you want to follow up?

661
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:39,120
He seems to have fallen down into the listener box, from what I can see. I don't know if that's on purpose or not, but maybe he'll come back up. I don't know.

662
00:40:39,719 --> 00:41:01,320
But yeah, Miguel, I agree with you. But it's like, what exactly, specifically, do you think we should do differently? Because it's like, all that stuff is already out there. That information is already out there.

663
00:41:01,559 --> 00:41:17,280
I think there's, and I also think that it is working slowly. So, I mean, you could just draw a line like, where was it two years ago? Where was it last year? Where is it now?

664
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:30,559
So, in a way, it's a very good thing that all they have to say is bringing shitcoins to Bitcoin, which is completely 100% untrue. And that I'm a large blocker, which is completely untrue.

665
00:41:30,559 --> 00:41:47,839
So, you can even go at scaling three, the recording of October 2016, where I advocate shrinking the L1 block size, which I still do on my blog. So, those two things are like, flatly untrue, just completely.

666
00:41:47,839 --> 00:42:11,440
And that's, they're scraping the bottom of the barrel, if they say, listen, when his career was, like, long before Michael Saylor had ever heard of Bitcoin, he was working at some, Paul was working for someone or someone was sponsoring technical work or something. It doesn't make any difference.

667
00:42:12,399 --> 00:42:29,039
You know, what's also funny is that Blockstream has tried to hire me for many years. And I always say, if I refuse to work there, and in fact, this is publicly known, because I tweeted about it. I tweeted screenshots where I say, if I work for Blockstream, everyone will just think that my ideas are good, even if they suck.

668
00:42:29,039 --> 00:42:42,160
Because this happens all the time with Blockstream, where they come out with some idea, and in any other context, it would suck. But because it came from Blockstream, everyone just thinks, wow, this idea is so great. And I'm just like, that's too lame for me. The satellite…

669
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:48,080
Do you ever wonder if your BIP300 would have, like, if it would have done better if you actually worked for Blockstream?

670
00:42:48,160 --> 00:43:13,039
No, I think it definitely would have. But maybe the idea itself would have been worse. It's hard to say. But yeah, I think now if I could redo it, I would say, people are so dumb that they need that. They need that thing, because they don't think for themselves. So I would have taken it and gone in, and gone into Blockstream. And then I would have just hoped that I would still be able to make the idea good.

671
00:43:13,759 --> 00:43:36,160
And so I think that if I could do it over, I would do that. Yeah, and I would have worked for different people, probably. Although I also think, like, being unplugged from the cult is enormously valuable. Like, if you're plugged into the cult, then you're dead. So you'll never have a good idea. It's impossible.

672
00:43:36,720 --> 00:44:05,199
Because you have too much… Christopher Hitchens used to say he wouldn't go out to have dinner with someone because he knew he had to write about them later, or something. So he was a journalist, so he would, like… You know, you don't want to, like, become friends with them. Then it will corrupt the… So I don't know. Maybe it would have been a terrible… Maybe it would have been much worse. BIP300 and BIP301 would have been inferior quality if I had. I think that's very likely.

673
00:44:05,199 --> 00:44:33,520
But I think I would still redo it, because I had no idea that people would be so, you know, so clueless. And I think also, I was kind of very slow and careful in developing it, which is also a mistake, because it has spread the… We have, like, the altcoins have gotten better, and there's more sour grapes now. And the cult problem has gotten worse every year. So those two problems have gotten worse and worse, and now it's not good.

674
00:44:35,599 --> 00:44:38,319
This is almost the last lifeboat leaving the Titanic.

675
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:53,360
I think it might have been more fruitful if it came, like… You know, it still could have came from you, and you still could have made it all. But, like, if it was from the backing with blockchain, or the connection with blockchain, I definitely think it potentially could have been way more fruitful.

676
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:57,520
Right, I agree.

677
00:45:05,599 --> 00:45:13,840
Anyway, we do have a Chris Buck here, but he is not coming up, I guess. So, Miguel, yes?

678
00:45:14,159 --> 00:45:17,999
I just want to say, like, thank you for your work, man. Really appreciate, like, your…

679
00:45:17,999 --> 00:45:19,999
Hey, thanks for your attention.

680
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:35,360
And the only critique that I have to you is maybe you're a little bit of training with your pitch, with the marketing. But everything else, man, thanks a lot, dude. Like, awesome work. Thanks a lot.

681
00:45:37,439 --> 00:45:39,439
Hey, thanks. We'll try to get better at that.

682
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:55,520
I think eventually, it will pass. There will be a different type of person who… Like, you know what I mean? Maybe it has to be… Like, there's Satoshi, and then there's Hal Finney, and then there's Andrea Santanopoulos, and then there's different people, you know? Who's the right person.

683
00:45:55,840 --> 00:46:16,960
Like, I think Nassim Taleb, something like, you want a… You want very optimistic flight attendants and a paranoid pilot, or something, you know? Like, the pilot has to be paranoid, because you don't want the… They're responsible for the decisions that cause the plane to crash.

684
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:34,240
But you want the… You don't want the flight attendants to be, like, paranoid, you know? Because then everyone's thinking, like, what? Like, the poor people in the cabin of the ship… In the cabin of the plane are like, what? Like, do we have to worry about all these things? And it's like, no, no, it's going to be fine.

685
00:46:35,199 --> 00:46:53,599
So, I think maybe more people will get involved, and it will expand in that direction. And, you know, a lot of people have… Many, many people have reached out to interview me, or to ask about what I'm doing, or to invite me to come speak at the conference that they're doing. So, I have been getting a lot more attention.

686
00:46:53,599 --> 00:47:15,999
So, I think that the… Especially if it's just things that are just, like, bringing shitcoins to Bitcoin, and Paul's a large blocker. Like, if that's all that we've got to fight through, then this will be over in, like, two more weeks, or something, because it's just not even close to the truth. So, then people will be like, what else have I been lied to about? And then it will kind of…

687
00:47:15,999 --> 00:47:19,079
of... And then people will come up with some story.

688
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,799
They'll say, well, it was a great idea, but it was presented wrong, so that they have

689
00:47:22,799 --> 00:47:23,819
some out for themselves.

690
00:47:24,299 --> 00:47:26,919
They need to have some little story.

691
00:47:27,079 --> 00:47:29,079
can't be, oh, I was wrong too.

692
00:47:29,619 --> 00:47:31,579
So, but whatever it is, people will figure it out.

693
00:47:34,219 --> 00:47:35,860
Anyway, we have a Tripto.

694
00:47:35,860 --> 00:47:40,360
trypto a trypto person is now here hello.

695
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:50,680
Hi so I don't really have too many

696
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:55,640
questions on like drive trends or I'm still reading and studying all of that I think

697
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:55,721
it's

698
00:47:55,721 --> 00:47:57,221
it's really cool work.

699
00:47:58,761 --> 00:48:01,441
like on, you, you familiar with GOMO?

700
00:48:02,521 --> 00:48:05,181
This hacker, his name is GOMO.

701
00:48:05,341 --> 00:48:08,801
Apparently has seven and a half billion dollars of Bitcoin and...

702
00:48:10,101 --> 00:48:10,781
Wow, that's cool.

703
00:48:11,341 --> 00:48:12,421
No, I don't think so.

704
00:48:12,981 --> 00:48:13,481
Maybe... of shadowy.

705
00:48:16,101 --> 00:48:18,431
there's no other GOMO, that's the whole thing.

706
00:48:21,081 --> 00:48:26,881
he follows me and like, he me the other day after I, it's interesting, followed me

707
00:48:26,881 --> 00:48:32,701
after I had tweeted something about how DriveTrains interact with Layer2s and blah,

708
00:48:32,781 --> 00:48:35,442
blah, blah. And apparently he has

709
00:48:35,442 --> 00:48:38,562
like, you know, seven and half billion dollars worth of Bitcoin.

710
00:48:38,962 --> 00:48:41,362
And he's had that since like, oh, nine, 2010.

711
00:48:42,402 --> 00:48:42,762
I don't know.

712
00:48:42,862 --> 00:48:44,922
I think he's a candidate for Satoshi Nakamoto.

713
00:48:45,142 --> 00:48:47,202
was wondering what you guys think about this guy.

714
00:48:48,482 --> 00:48:52,222
Well, unfortunately, I don't know a lot about but there are many such people who

715
00:48:52,222 --> 00:48:53,922
because I've been around a while.

716
00:48:54,482 --> 00:48:55,302
And there is a

717
00:48:55,363 --> 00:49:00,903
lot of people who have a ton of Bitcoin, they do not, they don't tweet, don't, you

718
00:49:00,903 --> 00:49:04,463
know, they don't, they're great ops -ec, and it's a well -kept secret.

719
00:49:05,363 --> 00:49:08,423
And there's a lot of super, and they don't like moving their coins either.

720
00:49:08,583 --> 00:49:12,723
They have the old coins, and then whenever they move them, they like drive up into the

721
00:49:12,723 --> 00:49:15,164
Swiss mountains or something, sign

722
00:49:15,244 --> 00:49:18,484
a bunch of transactions on like an air gap laptop and they have all the weird

723
00:49:18,484 --> 00:49:22,464
ceremonies. So there's a couple of characters like this and they're very interesting

724
00:49:22,464 --> 00:49:28,244
people. Yeah. He's been hacking like, mean, he's been hacking since the days where you,

725
00:49:28,244 --> 00:49:33,944
you know, you use the whistle to hack long distance phone calls with AT &T and

726
00:49:33,944 --> 00:49:34,904
then - Yeah, freaking.

727
00:49:35,184 --> 00:49:40,964
yeah. Yeah, and then eventually, you know, building systems for the government,

728
00:49:41,144 --> 00:49:46,704
building systems for networks like AT &T, IBM, all these, whatever they are, mean,

729
00:49:47,164 --> 00:49:48,304
it's just an interesting character.

730
00:49:48,564 --> 00:49:54,504
you know, that much Bitcoin, that long, uses a flip phone, doesn't use

731
00:49:54,504 --> 00:49:54,885
smartphones,

732
00:49:54,945 --> 00:49:55,905
like it's interesting.

733
00:49:57,005 --> 00:50:01,745
But anyway, I can't stand that these smartphones don't have like a switch to disable

734
00:50:01,745 --> 00:50:04,245
the camera. There's no like cover.

735
00:50:04,805 --> 00:50:06,865
I just think that's an outrage.

736
00:50:07,285 --> 00:50:08,765
webcam has one.

737
00:50:09,145 --> 00:50:14,746
These things are pointed at where we are and our own face all the time.

738
00:50:15,566 --> 00:50:21,566
Kind of annoying, that's my little pet peeve, among many of course, you know, as far as

739
00:50:21,566 --> 00:50:22,986
the surveillance state.

740
00:50:23,506 --> 00:50:24,446
It's so annoying,

741
00:50:25,766 --> 00:50:27,806
this stupid thing and it's taking over everyone's life.

742
00:50:27,946 --> 00:50:32,786
But anyway, yeah, I don't know a lot about that person, but I will look into that.

743
00:50:35,767 --> 00:50:40,807
thanks. looking forward to tweeting about the QUIBIPS idea.

744
00:50:41,067 --> 00:50:46,227
It's mostly fun, mostly theoretical, but looking forward to what LayerTwo Labs has to

745
00:50:46,227 --> 00:50:47,027
say about QUIBIPS.

746
00:50:51,627 --> 00:50:53,807
What is that, a quantum computer?

747
00:50:55,727 --> 00:51:01,667
I have a theory about how the future of Bitcoin will kind of function once we're off of

748
00:51:01,667 --> 00:51:03,687
classical computers. right.

749
00:51:05,467 --> 00:51:11,347
So I just, know, quantum, AI, BIPs, quiet BIPs, I'm kind of structuring how that

750
00:51:11,347 --> 00:51:14,307
would that would work if it would work and really necessary,

751
00:51:14,468 --> 00:51:18,268
which it really isn't unless we're not mining

752
00:51:18,268 --> 00:51:22,008
with classical computers.

753
00:51:23,888 --> 00:51:29,548
think Bitcoin can still survive even in a quantum world with classical computation and

754
00:51:29,548 --> 00:51:30,368
classical miners.

755
00:51:31,608 --> 00:51:33,368
It's mostly for fun.

756
00:51:34,609 --> 00:51:35,949
Yeah, that's a cool idea.

757
00:51:36,529 --> 00:51:42,269
think I met a lot of people who are very worried about

758
00:51:42,269 --> 00:51:46,729
imminent progress in quantum computing, which is interesting.

759
00:51:48,329 --> 00:51:53,629
Yeah, mean, it's, I mean, it's complicated because well,

760
00:51:54,530 --> 00:52:00,250
is susceptible to of

761
00:52:00,250 --> 00:52:06,010
this immensely fast factoring from these quantum computers and it's

762
00:52:06,010 --> 00:52:11,830
it's know signatures are

763
00:52:11,830 --> 00:52:12,910
going to be

764
00:52:16,471 --> 00:52:19,671
The quantum secure multi signatures would be nice.

765
00:52:21,431 --> 00:52:23,431
Quantum enhanced mining would be cool.

766
00:52:24,771 --> 00:52:30,551
then if Drivechains actually work, well they will work, but if they're implemented

767
00:52:30,551 --> 00:52:33,731
rather and we can start implementing smart contracts

768
00:52:33,771 --> 00:52:34,271
on Bitcoin.

769
00:52:37,311 --> 00:52:43,071
think Quantum makes all of bit more complex and maybe less

770
00:52:43,071 --> 00:52:44,211
feasible or more feasible.

771
00:52:44,431 --> 00:52:47,351
don't know, it's mostly just a fun theory I'm working on.

772
00:52:47,711 --> 00:52:51,611
Yeah, it's pretty cool, but we should make more space for anyone who has something

773
00:52:51,611 --> 00:52:53,632
that's more on topic

774
00:52:57,392 --> 00:53:02,392
hopefully, if someone has something else they want to say,

775
00:53:03,652 --> 00:53:04,852
come on up.

776
00:53:06,392 --> 00:53:07,772
But yeah, that's a neat idea.

777
00:53:10,332 --> 00:53:13,212
I definitely think that that's

778
00:53:13,493 --> 00:53:19,453
one of the wildcard scenarios for BTC, how

779
00:53:19,453 --> 00:53:24,593
will it deal with I'd have heard for a long time that quantum computers were coming

780
00:53:24,593 --> 00:53:29,133
along very slowly, and then recently in the last 18 months, it seems like they have

781
00:53:29,133 --> 00:53:33,354
been going way, way further than people had originally

782
00:53:33,474 --> 00:53:34,074
thought.

783
00:53:35,394 --> 00:53:40,614
Yeah, I mean, the hardware will be there for the public, you know, within the next 5 or

784
00:53:40,614 --> 00:53:46,054
10 years to just really move off of classical computers and maybe even classical mining

785
00:53:46,054 --> 00:53:50,774
machines. But I tweeted recently that I liked Drivechains because they allow devs to

786
00:53:50,774 --> 00:53:53,174
migrate off Ethereum L2s and

787
00:53:53,654 --> 00:53:58,214
custodial liquid staking and off -chain governance so proof of work can prevail while

788
00:53:58,214 --> 00:54:03,234
devs and traders continue practicing the few benefits ETH has left without sacrificing

789
00:54:03,234 --> 00:54:07,394
decentralization. that's why I like that.

790
00:54:08,514 --> 00:54:12,154
Yeah, that's what I like about Drivechains as far as I understand them now.

791
00:54:12,154 --> 00:54:12,874
you know my

792
00:54:13,075 --> 00:54:15,455
experience developing on other blockchains,

793
00:54:16,955 --> 00:54:22,635
it's difficult because they're not necessarily decentralized, and proof of stake is

794
00:54:22,635 --> 00:54:27,955
very inefficient in terms of decentralizing or decentralizing processes.

795
00:54:29,995 --> 00:54:32,815
Yeah, I agree that proof of work, there is no

796
00:54:32,936 --> 00:54:35,836
reason to move from proof of work to proof of stake.

797
00:54:37,696 --> 00:54:42,836
I think it's smart though of Ethereum to try to be different than VTC and all these

798
00:54:42,836 --> 00:54:47,156
ways they know about product differentiation, I think, so.

799
00:54:48,436 --> 00:54:50,136
But yeah, I think actually that's their biggest mistake.

800
00:54:50,616 --> 00:54:50,936
should...

801
00:54:53,157 --> 00:54:57,557
Well, it's hard to say which mistake is the biggest, but my view is...

802
00:54:57,557 --> 00:55:01,257
work is really ridiculous because...

803
00:55:01,597 --> 00:55:05,497
whoever is writing what the POW needs...

804
00:55:05,497 --> 00:55:11,357
Sorry, the proof of stake is ridiculous, rather, they're writing the protocols

805
00:55:11,357 --> 00:55:12,657
on

806
00:55:12,657 --> 00:55:14,397
the staking protocols.

807
00:55:15,157 --> 00:55:16,857
that can change at any time.

808
00:55:17,077 --> 00:55:20,397
The Core Devs, Batella can change that any time, essentially.

809
00:55:23,357 --> 00:55:29,277
So how the staking protocols can change and the entire network doesn't necessarily have

810
00:55:29,277 --> 00:55:32,437
to agree on those changes, unless I'm wrong, but I think

811
00:55:32,518 --> 00:55:33,478
that's how it would work.

812
00:55:34,778 --> 00:55:40,718
can build private or public LayerTwo networks and mint

813
00:55:40,718 --> 00:55:46,338
your own token there, whether it's an ERC20 or a 721, but still Bitcoin

814
00:55:46,338 --> 00:55:51,558
prevails in all of those scenarios because we need a consensus amongst all of the

815
00:55:51,558 --> 00:55:52,318
miners and all of

816
00:55:52,379 --> 00:55:55,259
network before a change is implemented.

817
00:55:55,859 --> 00:55:59,059
proof of stake, a lot of that can occur after the fact.

818
00:56:00,939 --> 00:56:03,379
Or a lot of the consensus, rather, can occur after the fact.

819
00:56:08,479 --> 00:56:12,240
Yeah, proof of work has many cool things like you...

820
00:56:12,500 --> 00:56:17,260
one is it's like half of a decentralized exchange out of the box.

821
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:23,000
So like you release Bitcoin and then if you can buy power anywhere in the world, then

822
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:28,420
you're converting electricity into coins, which is that's kind of cool because you know

823
00:56:28,420 --> 00:56:28,620
what I mean?

824
00:56:28,720 --> 00:56:30,220
It's like there's no one,

825
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:32,100
you know, like

826
00:56:32,100 --> 00:56:35,080
like you have a market where you buy coins with electricity, but it's just everywhere.

827
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:39,640
it's, so that's kind of a neat feature of it.

828
00:56:39,820 --> 00:56:44,700
yeah, do we have anyone who wants to come up?

829
00:56:49,340 --> 00:56:51,961
Paul, someone earlier asked about your advice to

830
00:56:51,961 --> 00:56:57,781
a college student, a developer, but what would your advice be

831
00:56:57,781 --> 00:57:02,961
to a college student from the perspective of an investor?

832
00:57:03,601 --> 00:57:06,981
Do you still see Bitcoin as the best investment?

833
00:57:08,981 --> 00:57:10,121
I do, yeah.

834
00:57:10,861 --> 00:57:11,541
for now,

835
00:57:11,822 --> 00:57:15,862
although I think we're doing everything we can to destroy our lead.

836
00:57:17,342 --> 00:57:18,002
I mean,

837
00:57:20,342 --> 00:57:24,942
I can see it going eventually where like two years from now I would just tell people to

838
00:57:24,942 --> 00:57:28,142
just buy like some Ethereum.

839
00:57:28,382 --> 00:57:31,683
Also not because I even like Ethereum, but just because they

840
00:57:31,803 --> 00:57:37,663
seem focused on growth, and I think that only one coin will win, and the

841
00:57:37,663 --> 00:57:38,463
rest will go to zero.

842
00:57:39,303 --> 00:57:45,123
it's kind of dangerous when BTC says we don't want adoption, which is

843
00:57:45,123 --> 00:57:50,903
sort of what I'm hearing everyone in BTC say these days.

844
00:57:51,544 --> 00:57:54,484
days.

845
00:57:57,324 --> 00:58:03,024
Do you think it's possible that Bitcoin, any years from now, remains

846
00:58:03,024 --> 00:58:06,704
like a kind of a niche thing?

847
00:58:07,064 --> 00:58:11,404
you know, it's not completely mainstream, but it does, it maintains

848
00:58:11,404 --> 00:58:14,364
maintains a much higher price than today.

849
00:58:17,144 --> 00:58:23,144
I think that it could stay sort of where it

850
00:58:23,144 --> 00:58:28,964
is. I think it's very difficult to have a coin be $30,000 if

851
00:58:28,964 --> 00:58:31,044
something else has taken over the entire world.

852
00:58:31,265 --> 00:58:35,385
so if there's some other thing it doesn't even have to be crypto it could be even CBDC

853
00:58:35,385 --> 00:58:41,265
or so something that's just something that's just so dominant I think that would

854
00:58:41,265 --> 00:58:46,765
be very difficult to imagine but just anything with like something with the fixed

855
00:58:46,765 --> 00:58:50,965
supply so anything with the fixed supply that takes over the world,

856
00:58:51,706 --> 00:58:57,646
then the main advantage of BTC is, you know, it's going to be what in that case,

857
00:58:57,746 --> 00:59:03,726
know, privacy or like what, that you have keys and you

858
00:59:03,726 --> 00:59:05,026
have your own UTXOs?

859
00:59:06,206 --> 00:59:07,906
don't know. I think that'd be tough.

860
00:59:10,366 --> 00:59:10,846
One

861
00:59:11,047 --> 00:59:16,007
common response to that, well Bitcoin's different because it had the immaculate

862
00:59:16,007 --> 00:59:16,847
conception.

863
00:59:18,527 --> 00:59:23,967
But, yeah, it's definitely a, I'm of the opinion now that that's sadly kind of a

864
00:59:23,967 --> 00:59:29,227
nonsense response, because obviously to the seven and a half billion people who don't

865
00:59:29,227 --> 00:59:30,847
own Right. It mattered a

866
00:59:30,907 --> 00:59:36,907
lot more in the past, like in 2009, when you just had Namecoin, and just had

867
00:59:36,907 --> 00:59:40,827
Litecoin, you had these coins that were exact carbon copies of BTC,

868
00:59:42,367 --> 00:59:44,127
then it kind of mattered a lot more.

869
00:59:44,227 --> 00:59:46,047
Okay, this is the one that we started with.

870
00:59:46,067 --> 00:59:48,367
This is the one that did not pre -mine.

871
00:59:49,887 --> 00:59:50,587
if you fast

872
00:59:50,708 --> 00:59:53,428
-forward, like imagine you fast -forward 200 years,

873
00:59:54,788 --> 00:59:55,828
all the Bitcoin has been mined.

874
00:59:56,348 --> 00:59:57,308
is it still gonna matter?

875
00:59:57,848 --> 01:00:02,088
Someone's gonna say, okay, this coin was invented in, it wasn't invented in 2009, it

876
01:00:02,088 --> 01:00:04,768
was invented in 2026.

877
01:00:06,368 --> 01:00:08,268
someone at that point is not gonna matter.

878
01:00:08,928 --> 01:00:10,568
So you can see that, at

879
01:00:10,589 --> 01:00:12,789
least theoretically it does wear out

880
01:00:14,549 --> 01:00:20,509
course there's for hardcore Bitcoiners to understand that from the perspective of

881
01:00:20,509 --> 01:00:26,389
somebody That's completely that doesn't own anything any crypto asset today

882
01:00:26,389 --> 01:00:30,269
coming into it there's no difference between

883
01:00:30,430 --> 01:00:36,030
Bitcoin's Immaculate Conception and Ethereum's 70 % free mine because they

884
01:00:36,030 --> 01:00:38,350
weren't privy to any of it.

885
01:00:38,490 --> 01:00:43,050
So Bitcoin might as well have been a 70 % free mine.

886
01:00:43,310 --> 01:00:45,310
For these people, there's no difference.

887
01:00:45,490 --> 01:00:48,850
And that's almost all the people on earth.

888
01:00:51,730 --> 01:00:53,770
Okay, we have a Dallas here,

889
01:00:57,270 --> 01:00:59,430
Hey, Dallas, is a funny way to say it.

890
01:00:59,750 --> 01:01:00,350
are you guys doing?

891
01:01:00,770 --> 01:01:01,450
Good to see you, Paul.

892
01:01:02,310 --> 01:01:03,070
I have a question for you.

893
01:01:03,330 --> 01:01:07,310
haven't been on any, let's say, last few spaces since you guys may have done,

894
01:01:07,670 --> 01:01:09,450
obviously, we've had a couple interactions before.

895
01:01:09,450 --> 01:01:10,130
Do you

896
01:01:10,151 --> 01:01:15,691
think, are there any, you know, let's say specific functions within how the current

897
01:01:15,691 --> 01:01:20,471
proposal works, BIP300, that you, you know, that you've ever kind of considered,

898
01:01:21,151 --> 01:01:25,031
thinking, okay, hey, maybe this could be a bit more like that, or this could be a bit

899
01:01:25,031 --> 01:01:28,791
more just, or do you do think in its current state, it is like,

900
01:01:30,992 --> 01:01:34,892
are there any parameters that you kind of second guessed yourself on in a way that it's

901
01:01:34,892 --> 01:01:37,212
currently proposed at this moment?

902
01:01:37,372 --> 01:01:38,332
I'd be generally curious.

903
01:01:39,032 --> 01:01:44,072
Yeah, the overall design has not changed at all since 2015.

904
01:01:45,132 --> 01:01:49,873
There is one slight detail that changed around 2017,

905
01:01:50,713 --> 01:01:54,413
which is about like, but I think I would have always changed that detail as I got more

906
01:01:54,413 --> 01:02:00,273
specific. the, but there's one, so that's the overall design is the same, but

907
01:02:00,273 --> 01:02:05,433
we have actually been tweaking the underlying details the whole time.

908
01:02:05,633 --> 01:02:09,713
And in fact, even just in the last three months, we

909
01:02:09,733 --> 01:02:15,333
we switched around exactly the exact way it

910
01:02:15,333 --> 01:02:17,753
counts deposits and

911
01:02:19,433 --> 01:02:20,073
so to speak.

912
01:02:20,633 --> 01:02:23,193
In the code, we changed some details in the code.

913
01:02:23,753 --> 01:02:28,893
Part of that is also to make it easier to rebase and pull requests into the latest

914
01:02:28,893 --> 01:02:29,594
version of Bitcoin

915
01:02:29,614 --> 01:02:31,274
Core, which is changing all the time.

916
01:02:31,414 --> 01:02:36,334
the ossificationists, they have a, it's not good right now if you like ossification,

917
01:02:36,414 --> 01:02:40,854
because there's lots and lots of just refactoring and stuff changing in Bitcoin.

918
01:02:42,554 --> 01:02:47,294
so that is something to keep in mind.

919
01:02:47,494 --> 01:02:49,334
But there is one thing that I actually do

920
01:02:49,455 --> 01:02:55,375
second guess, which is, changed the two week, it was two to four weeks,

921
01:02:55,415 --> 01:02:59,695
and I changed it to three to six months, because people would, they wouldn't stop

922
01:02:59,695 --> 01:03:03,635
complaining about the miners can steal, even though I explained why that is not the

923
01:03:03,635 --> 01:03:04,335
right criterion.

924
01:03:05,835 --> 01:03:09,195
Because the miners can steal from anything and they get the fees and

925
01:03:09,316 --> 01:03:10,516
that's the security model.

926
01:03:11,016 --> 01:03:16,956
I was thinking I'll make it longer and now I kind of think like

927
01:03:16,956 --> 01:03:20,756
what was the point because I don't think those people understood it anyway and even

928
01:03:20,756 --> 01:03:22,636
inventing blind merge mining at all.

929
01:03:22,796 --> 01:03:26,776
You see I still get the effects mining incentives.

930
01:03:27,256 --> 01:03:29,177
People like or whatever, Peter Todd

931
01:03:29,257 --> 01:03:34,617
will still say oh miners are pressured to run this has never been true but I even with

932
01:03:34,617 --> 01:03:40,177
blind merge mining it's ninety nine point nine nine nine percent less true than it was

933
01:03:40,177 --> 01:03:44,837
before and but it doesn't make any difference so to the critics who in the case don't

934
01:03:44,837 --> 01:03:49,037
know anything they never read the BIP they none of them have used the software Peter

935
01:03:49,037 --> 01:03:50,577
Peter Todd didn't even know that there was software

936
01:03:51,817 --> 01:03:53,597
as a Baltic Honey Badger this year.

937
01:03:53,657 --> 01:03:56,157
It's been software for literally three or four years.

938
01:03:57,417 --> 01:04:03,157
I don't... really, I reacted to what you might call

939
01:04:03,157 --> 01:04:07,037
a peer review, but the peers didn't know anything about the idea.

940
01:04:07,377 --> 01:04:08,757
that makes me, in retrospect,

941
01:04:08,998 --> 01:04:13,778
back and say oh should I have listened to them at all because they clearly had like a

942
01:04:13,778 --> 01:04:19,718
very very zero percent understanding of the idea so maybe I

943
01:04:19,718 --> 01:04:24,538
shouldn't have but overall I think it's fine because I

944
01:04:24,538 --> 01:04:28,759
was just saying the three to six month

945
01:04:28,839 --> 01:04:29,559
thing is fine.

946
01:04:29,779 --> 01:04:30,979
all the changes I made are fine.

947
01:04:31,099 --> 01:04:34,899
Bip merge mining basically turns every sidechain node into like a perfectly

948
01:04:34,899 --> 01:04:39,499
decentralized stratum V2 competing pool or whatever.

949
01:04:40,019 --> 01:04:42,899
it's actually all this stuff is kind of cool, honestly.

950
01:04:43,179 --> 01:04:48,619
So I guess I'm kind of glad that it exists, but I do second guess it

951
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:52,960
because the whole basis for creating it was the peer review, but the peers didn't know

952
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:53,320
anything.

953
01:04:55,220 --> 01:04:59,940
one thing I guess, it's hard to correct because I've spoken to lot of people who are

954
01:04:59,940 --> 01:05:04,700
supportive of what the BIP you guys are going put forward and then also that obviously

955
01:05:04,700 --> 01:05:08,480
I just wonder if there

956
01:05:08,500 --> 01:05:14,160
are ways to strengthen the existing design in a way

957
01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:19,320
that could make it harder for miners to basically steal coins, right?

958
01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:24,860
And maybe in your view, it's not easy for them to do that.

959
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:28,280
But one thing that I guess wasn't super clear to me,

960
01:05:28,541 --> 01:05:33,141
even in like several discussions, kind of, let's say, you change the parameter that you

961
01:05:33,141 --> 01:05:36,341
mentioned from two to four weeks to something like three to six months.

962
01:05:36,781 --> 01:05:38,621
What is actually changed?

963
01:05:38,961 --> 01:05:44,761
what that time frame is that a bad actor, essentially, does everyone gets to see the

964
01:05:44,761 --> 01:05:46,721
attack coming now for three to six months?

965
01:05:46,801 --> 01:05:48,121
Yeah, the first and

966
01:05:48,202 --> 01:05:50,462
most of... It's an excellent question.

967
01:05:50,762 --> 01:05:52,302
a couple of things changed.

968
01:05:52,462 --> 01:05:57,242
The most important is that the responsibility

969
01:05:57,242 --> 01:06:01,002
is more tightly focused on the miner.

970
01:06:01,122 --> 01:06:04,842
So they can't say like, oh, it was some kind of mix up or misunderstanding.

971
01:06:05,842 --> 01:06:06,182
you what I mean?

972
01:06:06,622 --> 01:06:08,042
Because if it like happens, if it's only

973
01:06:08,063 --> 01:06:13,883
going for five hours, it happens from 3am to 8am on Saturday

974
01:06:13,883 --> 01:06:15,603
morning or something, you know?

975
01:06:16,583 --> 01:06:21,543
And then everyone can be like, oh, well, we don't know what happened there.

976
01:06:22,323 --> 01:06:23,563
How did that happen?

977
01:06:25,103 --> 01:06:27,923
Whereas if it's really slow, then

978
01:06:27,923 --> 01:06:28,703
then it's deliberate.

979
01:06:29,343 --> 01:06:31,243
that's one thing that changes.

980
01:06:31,903 --> 01:06:37,103
The other is that you have like plenty of time to figure out what the reply is going to

981
01:06:37,103 --> 01:06:39,883
be. Like you have time to like talk things over.

982
01:06:41,383 --> 01:06:45,703
You have time to like say, okay, who is doing this and why?

983
01:06:45,843 --> 01:06:47,784
hear everyone's like reason

984
01:06:51,004 --> 01:06:54,504
It's just more tightly controlled.

985
01:06:54,844 --> 01:06:59,564
I often give an example of like they run into an Apple store and they just grab

986
01:06:59,564 --> 01:07:03,024
something off the shelf and they run to get out the door and they're slowed down.

987
01:07:03,744 --> 01:07:06,504
They're slow motion and can't take some three months to leave.

988
01:07:07,044 --> 01:07:07,444
Well,

989
01:07:08,305 --> 01:07:09,845
know, now it takes them three months to leave.

990
01:07:10,005 --> 01:07:11,185
can you could call the police.

991
01:07:11,605 --> 01:07:13,665
You can even call the police and tell them to just come tomorrow.

992
01:07:14,785 --> 01:07:17,745
If they're busy, know, you can tell them to come next week.

993
01:07:19,105 --> 01:07:21,785
you can. So it's more respectful of people's attention in general.

994
01:07:22,425 --> 01:07:26,565
even if you don't, even if you can't call the police, could still you have plenty of

995
01:07:26,565 --> 01:07:27,285
time to like

996
01:07:27,526 --> 01:07:31,386
take their picture and you know, they have they have more.

997
01:07:31,686 --> 01:07:35,566
It's just they have to just do the wrong thing like in public.

998
01:07:35,766 --> 01:07:41,446
So what is the initial trigger at which people would say, hey, bad actors are trying to

999
01:07:41,446 --> 01:07:42,226
do a bad thing?

1000
01:07:42,306 --> 01:07:46,126
Like what would you see that would indicate that something bad is happening?

1001
01:07:46,706 --> 01:07:47,346
The sidechain

1002
01:07:47,426 --> 01:07:53,366
is going to recalculate the next withdrawal hash automatically for everyone

1003
01:07:53,366 --> 01:07:54,566
at the same time.

1004
01:07:55,586 --> 01:08:01,446
it will automatically determine what the...

1005
01:08:01,446 --> 01:08:04,126
will... has a...

1006
01:08:04,126 --> 01:08:07,166
it's using the sidechain rules automatically, it will

1007
01:08:07,227 --> 01:08:09,387
say, okay, these number of people want to withdraw.

1008
01:08:10,247 --> 01:08:13,907
The last withdraw either just finished or just failed or something.

1009
01:08:14,207 --> 01:08:15,367
we're ready for the next one.

1010
01:08:16,187 --> 01:08:19,187
And it will click that over and it will have a new withdrawal hash.

1011
01:08:20,367 --> 01:08:23,367
And that withdrawal hash will be in the bottom ribbon of the GUI.

1012
01:08:23,707 --> 01:08:26,347
And it will also be in the block header of every sidechain block.

1013
01:08:26,607 --> 01:08:27,088
So it'll be

1014
01:08:27,088 --> 01:08:31,608
be maximally available the sidechain will be like it's like they're holding up a

1015
01:08:31,608 --> 01:08:36,948
gigantic sign that has this hash on it and they

1016
01:08:36,948 --> 01:08:41,788
will be screaming and it's going to be repeating it over and over again for the next

1017
01:08:41,788 --> 01:08:46,908
three months so they're this is the hash and now when

1018
01:08:46,949 --> 01:08:48,849
similarly on L1,

1019
01:08:50,329 --> 01:08:56,029
when the miners write this hash into the Coinbase on L1, they'll write it in for that

1020
01:08:56,029 --> 01:08:57,769
slot, sidechain and slot number 7.

1021
01:08:58,549 --> 01:08:59,829
They will do that.

1022
01:09:00,949 --> 01:09:04,649
then, so as soon as it doesn't match, every user of the sidechain will know

1023
01:09:04,649 --> 01:09:06,589
instantaneously what is wrong

1024
01:09:06,810 --> 01:09:09,910
and then what should be done about it.

1025
01:09:10,290 --> 01:09:16,150
then it appears as a matter of is this an innocent mistake, you

1026
01:09:16,150 --> 01:09:20,850
know, or is it deliberate?

1027
01:09:21,210 --> 01:09:22,550
so if it's deliberate,

1028
01:09:24,270 --> 01:09:25,870
are we doomed?

1029
01:09:26,470 --> 01:09:26,670
know,

1030
01:09:26,690 --> 01:09:27,490
like, we bugged?

1031
01:09:27,790 --> 01:09:33,430
So Paul, wasn't there some sort of real world example where one of these

1032
01:09:33,430 --> 01:09:38,470
Ethereum bridges had taken some things, definitely some inspiration from your design,

1033
01:09:38,470 --> 01:09:44,430
but they had changed it to the peg out being a matter of like an hour instead

1034
01:09:44,430 --> 01:09:45,430
of three months.

1035
01:09:45,430 --> 01:09:46,130
and

1036
01:09:47,031 --> 01:09:53,031
There was some kind of Open and notorious theft, but nobody figured it

1037
01:09:53,031 --> 01:09:58,411
out for like no, but nobody was paying attention until it would until you know six

1038
01:09:58,411 --> 01:10:04,331
seven hours later and Another thing to keep in mind is that there's really not

1039
01:10:04,331 --> 01:10:06,271
a lot of inconvenience by making it

1040
01:10:06,392 --> 01:10:12,352
slower because regular users will just swap out instantly and other users

1041
01:10:12,352 --> 01:10:15,092
will be like professionally patient people.

1042
01:10:15,232 --> 01:10:17,092
They'll be basically farming it for yield.

1043
01:10:17,932 --> 01:10:22,932
So they'll be buying up the sidechain coins for 99 cents on the dollar or whatever it

1044
01:10:22,932 --> 01:10:25,072
is, 98, 99.9, whatever it is.

1045
01:10:25,452 --> 01:10:26,252
And then they will be

1046
01:10:32,613 --> 01:10:34,773
The blockchain

1047
01:10:34,773 --> 01:10:40,413
software

1048
01:10:40,413 --> 01:10:44,073
automatically gives everyone the single correct hash.

1049
01:10:44,073 --> 01:10:46,033
So if anything else goes into

1050
01:10:46,113 --> 01:10:46,573
L1,

1051
01:10:47,813 --> 01:10:52,233
everyone will know the first instance that it's wrong.

1052
01:10:52,693 --> 01:10:56,773
But then there's many people who not using the sidechain, they won't know until someone

1053
01:10:56,773 --> 01:11:02,753
tells them. the software gives a hash as a single source of truth, I guess, that people

1054
01:11:02,753 --> 01:11:05,753
would look at and say, okay, honors whatever,

1055
01:11:06,354 --> 01:11:09,394
correct actions being compiled in the correct way.

1056
01:11:09,674 --> 01:11:13,514
And if there's even a single transaction, whether the amounts buried or to a different

1057
01:11:13,514 --> 01:11:17,734
address or any variation from that, then there would be a different hash and that would

1058
01:11:17,734 --> 01:11:21,634
be how people would recognize that there's some some fuckery afoot.

1059
01:11:22,154 --> 01:11:23,514
Is that simple way to know?

1060
01:11:24,154 --> 01:11:24,414
exactly.

1061
01:11:27,355 --> 01:11:31,715
Okay. Yeah, I mean, one of the things I guess I was saying to you on a different space,

1062
01:11:31,795 --> 01:11:36,015
like one of my concerns is still, and this may be a concern, I guess almost of almost

1063
01:11:36,015 --> 01:11:40,775
any or well, not any, but many other kind of, let's say sort of sidechain or maybe

1064
01:11:40,775 --> 01:11:45,696
some potential L2s is like, you know, who is issuing,

1065
01:11:46,616 --> 01:11:50,696
who is in charge of the current code that runs on that Drivechain?

1066
01:11:51,056 --> 01:11:52,456
And who can change that?

1067
01:11:52,796 --> 01:11:58,436
And are users required to, you know, essentially be brought along with the update

1068
01:11:58,436 --> 01:12:00,116
happening? No, they're not.

1069
01:12:00,396 --> 01:12:01,356
It's a very, good question.

1070
01:12:01,836 --> 01:12:03,896
Yeah. It's a very, very good question.

1071
01:12:04,136 --> 01:12:05,556
And actually the logic is the same.

1072
01:12:06,256 --> 01:12:09,156
It partially relies on the hash answer question.

1073
01:12:09,616 --> 01:12:15,116
what happens is when you claim the slot, you have an opportunity

1074
01:12:15,116 --> 01:12:17,256
and the slot is first assigned.

1075
01:12:17,796 --> 01:12:23,556
You label the slot like whatever ZCASH sidechain, but you also are able to put the hash

1076
01:12:23,556 --> 01:12:25,276
of the

1077
01:12:25,657 --> 01:12:26,517
node software.

1078
01:12:28,617 --> 01:12:34,397
There's no literal software being run or hosted anywhere, you can say, listen, this

1079
01:12:34,397 --> 01:12:39,577
is the software that you're supposed to run to figure out what the hash should be.

1080
01:12:40,497 --> 01:12:42,417
We're not going to run it, but this is what it is.

1081
01:12:42,717 --> 01:12:45,278
Now that's like the version 0.1

1082
01:12:45,278 --> 01:12:46,878
or whatever of the sidechain, right?

1083
01:12:47,518 --> 01:12:53,178
Now if they release newer versions of the sidechain software that

1084
01:12:53,178 --> 01:12:58,818
give the same, in all circumstances give the same withdrawal hash, then that is

1085
01:12:58,818 --> 01:13:01,798
basically a soft fork upgrade to the sidechain.

1086
01:13:02,278 --> 01:13:04,958
But you notice that they really can't do that

1087
01:13:05,819 --> 01:13:11,819
they give a version, if they update, which is basically a hard fork, they release a

1088
01:13:11,819 --> 01:13:14,079
version of the software that gives a different withdrawal hash.

1089
01:13:14,219 --> 01:13:19,739
And since the hashes have to be exactly the same, for anyone to know which withdrawal

1090
01:13:19,739 --> 01:13:20,559
is real,

1091
01:13:21,899 --> 01:13:23,299
that is not going to work.

1092
01:13:24,439 --> 01:13:24,999
So the

1093
01:13:25,179 --> 01:13:30,139
users of the sidechain, they inherit the protection of the software

1094
01:13:30,139 --> 01:13:33,859
inherently. This is a very important point because, of course, they're to have to be

1095
01:13:33,859 --> 01:13:36,719
updating the sidechain software all the time.

1096
01:13:37,199 --> 01:13:42,759
And as long as they do that in a way that an old node, if you ran the v0

1097
01:13:42,759 --> 01:13:44,860
.1 node, whose hash was when you

1098
01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:45,860
first claimed the slot,

1099
01:13:47,540 --> 01:13:52,680
as long as it's such that running that old node, or OG sidechain node software,

1100
01:13:53,500 --> 01:13:57,180
will give the same withdrawal hash, then you see it really doesn't matter, because the

1101
01:13:57,180 --> 01:14:01,060
same people who are leaving, if you want to leave and get to L1, it's the same in every

1102
01:14:01,060 --> 01:14:01,980
version of the software.

1103
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:04,721
So you're never screwed

1104
01:14:10,381 --> 01:14:15,901
I have a question on If the sidechain wanted to update,

1105
01:14:18,021 --> 01:14:23,481
newer software, might not know later there might be incompatibility, but would the best

1106
01:14:23,481 --> 01:14:24,582
way be to

1107
01:14:24,582 --> 01:14:29,142
to claim the slot with the new hash of the software and get the 90 % vote?

1108
01:14:31,282 --> 01:14:37,002
to claim the new slot is 90 % not a new slot, but like to replace the slot,

1109
01:14:37,042 --> 01:14:41,202
right? Yeah, replacing the slot is a much is a very different process, which

1110
01:14:41,202 --> 01:14:44,443
intentionally requires 50 % over six

1111
01:14:44,563 --> 01:14:50,123
months. that basically is a withdrawal, and that has to be the case, because

1112
01:14:50,123 --> 01:14:52,963
it's a very severe thing.

1113
01:14:53,263 --> 01:14:57,283
It's basically stealing all the money and moving it a different...

1114
01:14:57,283 --> 01:15:00,123
stealing all the money from one sidechain and rolling it over to a new sidechain.

1115
01:15:00,363 --> 01:15:02,983
So that's why it has to be very slow.

1116
01:15:02,983 --> 01:15:04,283
So do you think that that would be the

1117
01:15:04,303 --> 01:15:09,283
best way to update software of the sidechain?

1118
01:15:09,783 --> 01:15:14,003
No, think should do softworks if it can.

1119
01:15:14,403 --> 01:15:17,463
And if it can't, should just release a new sidechain altogether.

1120
01:15:18,863 --> 01:15:20,743
It's being very different.

1121
01:15:22,683 --> 01:15:24,143
Tryptonomics, you know, handout, I

1122
01:15:24,164 --> 01:15:25,044
thought.

1123
01:15:26,784 --> 01:15:32,764
with BIP300, essentially, with blind merch mining, are we going to be

1124
01:15:32,764 --> 01:15:37,544
able to have Bitcoin as the native token and all these proof -of -work

1125
01:15:37,544 --> 01:15:42,104
blockchains, like, even on Ethereum, theoretically?

1126
01:15:43,184 --> 01:15:43,544
I the idea,

1127
01:15:44,765 --> 01:15:50,225
and so I keep trying to tell this to people and they get violence and it just makes me

1128
01:15:50,225 --> 01:15:56,165
more excited about this bit because well all their proof of stake is

1129
01:15:56,165 --> 01:16:00,185
going to be nothing because what they have staked is not even going to be their native

1130
01:16:00,185 --> 01:16:03,125
token on their own blockchain and so

1131
01:16:03,886 --> 01:16:09,826
so I'm just wondering how quick how quickly are do you think other

1132
01:16:09,826 --> 01:16:15,366
blockchains are going to adopt this BIP and try to absorb other blockchains the way

1133
01:16:15,366 --> 01:16:20,786
Bitcoin will I think one project is doing that I think it's doge.net or something like

1134
01:16:20,786 --> 01:16:23,746
that it's very funny

1135
01:16:25,126 --> 01:16:29,586
Yeah, yeah, they adopted your BIP and they're already inheriting or absorbing other

1136
01:16:29,586 --> 01:16:34,966
blockchains by making their native token, the native token, and other blockchains that

1137
01:16:34,966 --> 01:16:37,946
want to interact and transfer assets, etc.

1138
01:16:39,046 --> 01:16:41,306
I just want to make sure I had that accurate.

1139
01:16:41,486 --> 01:16:42,646
Yeah, now you have it accurate.

1140
01:16:43,086 --> 01:16:43,546
I

1141
01:16:43,607 --> 01:16:46,007
think one is enough, honestly, but maybe there'll be two.

1142
01:16:46,247 --> 01:16:46,567
know what mean?

1143
01:16:46,787 --> 01:16:51,607
if there's a rate to absorb them, it'll be kind of a funny situation.

1144
01:16:52,887 --> 01:16:58,267
So essentially we can calculate with a formula how quickly

1145
01:16:58,267 --> 01:17:02,567
other blockchain's native tokens will be devalued, and the rate at which they'll be

1146
01:17:02,567 --> 01:17:03,468
devalued if

1147
01:17:03,628 --> 01:17:05,528
BIP300 is enacted.

1148
01:17:08,248 --> 01:17:13,188
don't know about with a formula, I think something along those lines is possible where

1149
01:17:13,188 --> 01:17:17,888
you merge things and then there's network effects, Metcalfe's etc.

1150
01:17:20,468 --> 01:17:21,408
We have a Joe.

1151
01:17:22,848 --> 01:17:23,288
Hello, Mr.

1152
01:17:24,369 --> 01:17:24,789
Hey, Paul.

1153
01:17:26,089 --> 01:17:31,489
I was just thinking a little bit about the kinds of complaints you get

1154
01:17:31,489 --> 01:17:37,109
about Drivechain and could, I mean, this feels like a big

1155
01:17:37,109 --> 01:17:42,729
compromise, but I think a lot of the complaints go away if you just, if the BIP just

1156
01:17:42,729 --> 01:17:43,189
said

1157
01:17:43,189 --> 01:17:49,049
only 500 bitcoins can move to sidechain and it'd be enforceable

1158
01:17:49,049 --> 01:17:53,849
kind of voluntarily sort of, you know, it would just be part of uh, soft work.

1159
01:17:54,789 --> 01:18:00,749
but yeah, I was just wondering, maybe it's just a, uh, rhetorical kind of tactic,

1160
01:18:01,109 --> 01:18:02,989
but it seems to

1161
01:18:07,190 --> 01:18:08,310
I think possible.

1162
01:18:08,990 --> 01:18:12,650
I think you may be right about that, but I think it's more a problem with the

1163
01:18:12,650 --> 01:18:17,190
complainers. mean, if you think about it from this point of view, who's bearing the

1164
01:18:17,190 --> 01:18:22,290
risk of putting the 501st coin into the drivechain?

1165
01:18:22,290 --> 01:18:22,911
you

1166
01:18:23,851 --> 01:18:27,911
mostly it's the person, I mean, you could argue that, oh, okay, if too many coins go

1167
01:18:27,911 --> 01:18:31,151
over there and that's bad somehow for other people.

1168
01:18:31,471 --> 01:18:34,711
I don't think that makes any sense, but someone could say that, I suppose, but really

1169
01:18:34,711 --> 01:18:38,791
it's the person who's voluntarily putting the 501st coin in.

1170
01:18:39,851 --> 01:18:41,711
shouldn't they, don't we believe in freedom?

1171
01:18:41,851 --> 01:18:42,772
I shouldn't maybe be able to do that

1172
01:18:42,892 --> 01:18:43,512
or, you know.

1173
01:18:44,592 --> 01:18:45,132
Yeah, I agree.

1174
01:18:45,712 --> 01:18:46,712
Right. agree, of course.

1175
01:18:47,832 --> 01:18:53,412
But yeah, I mean, I guess in practice, it could just be the

1176
01:18:53,412 --> 01:18:58,812
presumption is that that coin gets stolen, you know, and that's all.

1177
01:18:59,772 --> 01:19:02,632
yeah, violates ideals of freedom and stuff,

1178
01:19:02,772 --> 01:19:06,052
but it might be a rhetorical point that's useful.

1179
01:19:06,152 --> 01:19:11,952
many people, as you know, I'm sure that you do, many people complain no one wants this

1180
01:19:11,952 --> 01:19:17,232
idea, and then they flip and they say this idea is going to be so big that it will

1181
01:19:17,232 --> 01:19:19,312
change and affect everything.

1182
01:19:20,912 --> 01:19:22,392
So they have it on both sides,

1183
01:19:22,493 --> 01:19:24,413
and this is the upper side.

1184
01:19:24,553 --> 01:19:26,933
saying with so many coins, this will be so popular.

1185
01:19:27,493 --> 01:19:32,793
mean just as a point of comparison, there's only less than 5000 or somewhere around

1186
01:19:32,793 --> 01:19:36,253
5000 BTC in the Lightning Network.

1187
01:19:36,813 --> 01:19:42,253
10 Drivechains of 500 each would be the entire

1188
01:19:42,354 --> 01:19:43,974
Lightning Network today.

1189
01:19:48,114 --> 01:19:49,294
don't know, it's an interesting idea.

1190
01:19:49,554 --> 01:19:53,434
think it's too weird.

1191
01:19:54,174 --> 01:19:59,894
What difference does it make if there's one Drivechain that has 10,000 or 20 that

1192
01:19:59,894 --> 01:20:02,074
each have 499 or

1193
01:20:02,215 --> 01:20:02,635
something.

1194
01:20:04,195 --> 01:20:05,075
Why would that matter?

1195
01:20:06,575 --> 01:20:08,155
Oh, totally. Yeah, yeah, totally.

1196
01:20:08,335 --> 01:20:12,315
But I mean, if you expose this contradiction, gets people to...

1197
01:20:12,315 --> 01:20:14,515
mean, it's kind of like you're arguing it step by step.

1198
01:20:14,635 --> 01:20:15,215
Here's an improvement.

1199
01:20:15,335 --> 01:20:16,075
Here's a little tweak.

1200
01:20:16,515 --> 01:20:17,155
Here's a tweak.

1201
01:20:17,155 --> 01:20:18,255
And now we have the full thing.

1202
01:20:18,355 --> 01:20:22,076
And they're all, you know, unarguable improvements along

1203
01:20:22,196 --> 01:20:24,456
the way, but maybe it doesn't actually work that way.

1204
01:20:25,876 --> 01:20:28,076
But yeah, just something to think about.

1205
01:20:28,296 --> 01:20:31,396
Hey Paul, can I ask you one more question because I gotta run for another call in just

1206
01:20:31,396 --> 01:20:37,076
a sec. So my understanding is that in the current proposal, there are

1207
01:20:37,076 --> 01:20:39,816
a limited number of drivechains that could exist.

1208
01:20:40,156 --> 01:20:41,016
That's correct, right?

1209
01:20:43,116 --> 01:20:47,996
Yes, but it's really limited practice because you get a drivechains of drivechains or

1210
01:20:47,996 --> 01:20:53,456
you could just Redo that you could just activate the 300 be the 300 see and just keep

1211
01:20:53,456 --> 01:20:57,256
adding spot if you want That's No, that's interesting.

1212
01:20:57,336 --> 01:21:01,636
Um, so one question I have is what essentially like

1213
01:21:02,237 --> 01:21:07,377
the minimum requirement for, like if I want to launch a Drivechain, how does mine be

1214
01:21:07,377 --> 01:21:11,397
considered one of the limited space of sort of that first layer of ones that could

1215
01:21:11,397 --> 01:21:17,377
exist? is that open to somebody spamming, essentially somehow inclusion with,

1216
01:21:17,377 --> 01:21:21,597
let's say, one miner allocating a little bit of hash power to it, and then clogging up

1217
01:21:21,758 --> 01:21:27,698
the available initial drivechains that are one layer removed from the

1218
01:21:27,698 --> 01:21:28,478
main chain. that make sense?

1219
01:21:29,098 --> 01:21:35,098
It does. There is, to avoid that problem, is a requirement that 90 %

1220
01:21:35,098 --> 01:21:37,618
of the hashrate act over two weeks.

1221
01:21:37,898 --> 01:21:39,358
So it's kind of like a...

1222
01:21:39,358 --> 01:21:41,318
It's very similar to what BIP9

1223
01:21:41,519 --> 01:21:46,879
software activation used to be a long time ago, it's sort of speedy trial, like a

1224
01:21:46,879 --> 01:21:52,759
really speedy trial today, where you do need 90 % very

1225
01:21:52,759 --> 01:21:54,799
high threshold over a short period of time.

1226
01:21:55,299 --> 01:21:58,499
anyone can, any miner can just propose this slot.

1227
01:21:58,819 --> 01:22:00,799
This is called message M1 in the BIP.

1228
01:22:01,119 --> 01:22:01,379
These are

1229
01:22:01,479 --> 01:22:02,519
M1 and M2.

1230
01:22:02,739 --> 01:22:03,559
There are six messages.

1231
01:22:03,859 --> 01:22:05,939
M1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

1232
01:22:06,799 --> 01:22:11,679
So M1, you just broadcast in a Coinbase and you just say, this is what I do.

1233
01:22:12,979 --> 01:22:14,119
I want the slot.

1234
01:22:14,339 --> 01:22:20,139
But then if you don't have enough M2 acts of that, it will just not claim

1235
01:22:20,139 --> 01:22:20,599
the slot.

1236
01:22:21,300 --> 01:22:24,660
yeah, there's like a DOS.

1237
01:22:25,500 --> 01:22:26,680
What was the first thing you said?

1238
01:22:26,960 --> 01:22:27,700
% of what?

1239
01:22:28,780 --> 01:22:34,460
90 % of the following 2016 blocks must have this

1240
01:22:34,460 --> 01:22:35,700
M2 to back it up.

1241
01:22:35,780 --> 01:22:40,820
So you need one M1 and then you need many M2s in

1242
01:22:42,401 --> 01:22:46,981
Could a miner's hash rate, is it sort of double counted?

1243
01:22:47,201 --> 01:22:52,141
Like if I've got whatever, just some amount of hash rate, and I want to somehow, you

1244
01:22:52,141 --> 01:22:55,741
know, let's say, support 10 different drivechains, can I bring an equivalent amount to

1245
01:22:55,741 --> 01:23:00,241
each of those, or am I splitting it and not able to carry a drivechain to drive

1246
01:23:00,241 --> 01:23:00,541
chains?

1247
01:23:01,562 --> 01:23:03,582
This is only to turn it on at the very beginning.

1248
01:23:03,902 --> 01:23:09,762
So you do the one M1, and then you have M2, you act at, you can do, you propose one,

1249
01:23:10,162 --> 01:23:15,662
you can do a, so like block three, 300,000, or whatever, whatever it is.

1250
01:23:16,142 --> 01:23:17,102
Block 900,000.

1251
01:23:17,722 --> 01:23:20,682
That one has an M1 to claim sidechains slide

1252
01:23:20,822 --> 01:23:22,502
3 to make a Zcash sidechain.

1253
01:23:23,222 --> 01:23:29,082
And then next block, 900001, you have an M2 message that

1254
01:23:29,082 --> 01:23:33,562
acts the previous M1, acknowledges, thumbs up.

1255
01:23:35,122 --> 01:23:39,202
And you can also then, you put an M1 that you say, want to claim sidechain slot 4 to

1256
01:23:39,202 --> 01:23:40,422
make the EVM sidechain.

1257
01:23:41,983 --> 01:23:47,543
And then in the next block, 900,002, you say,

1258
01:23:48,243 --> 01:23:52,463
okay, I have an M2 for each of those, and now you're claiming two at once.

1259
01:23:53,263 --> 01:23:54,123
So they're separable.

1260
01:23:56,043 --> 01:23:56,863
Does that make sense?

1261
01:23:57,543 --> 01:23:59,083
Yeah, I think that does.

1262
01:23:59,783 --> 01:24:00,544
Yeah, had

1263
01:24:00,564 --> 01:24:01,844
a bit more time with you guys.

1264
01:24:01,924 --> 01:24:04,784
you're going be on for a while, come back, but I got to jump on call.

1265
01:24:04,944 --> 01:24:06,024
thank you guys for your time.

1266
01:24:06,564 --> 01:24:10,324
I don't think I'll come back much later, there's always Twitter.

1267
01:24:10,504 --> 01:24:11,404
There's always next week.

1268
01:24:11,944 --> 01:24:13,344
Next week, should maybe do...

1269
01:24:14,184 --> 01:24:16,644
Next week, we can go 48 hours.

1270
01:24:16,904 --> 01:24:17,524
No, I'm just kidding.

1271
01:24:18,084 --> 01:24:19,024
Actually, think the people...

1272
01:24:19,024 --> 01:24:20,405
you and Shinobi fight with your

1273
01:24:20,465 --> 01:24:22,425
shirts off for survival.

1274
01:24:24,045 --> 01:24:25,445
Yeah, should be how activate.

1275
01:24:25,645 --> 01:24:26,465
It would be like whatever.

1276
01:24:26,725 --> 01:24:29,225
It would be like, what's the movie?

1277
01:24:29,465 --> 01:24:31,185
Black Panther? That's BIP activation.

1278
01:24:32,245 --> 01:24:32,885
BIP Panther.

1279
01:24:34,885 --> 01:24:36,245
Somebody make that meme.

1280
01:24:36,465 --> 01:24:37,325
Get on it.

1281
01:24:40,265 --> 01:24:44,305
cool see you thanks see

1282
01:24:45,985 --> 01:24:51,845
you Paul do you mind maybe talking about mining machines or is that bit too far off

1283
01:24:51,845 --> 01:24:57,685
topic but I mean if you connect them and relate them to drivechains maybe no one else

1284
01:24:57,685 --> 01:25:00,126
comes up and no one else wants to say anything then we can talk about whatever

1285
01:25:00,206 --> 01:25:00,786
it is. is it?

1286
01:25:00,986 --> 01:25:05,246
you to talk about the mining, the hasher machines themselves?

1287
01:25:07,586 --> 01:25:08,286
What do you want to know about that?

1288
01:25:11,586 --> 01:25:16,886
Just kind of where the state of the art is in terms of mining and if Drivechains will

1289
01:25:16,886 --> 01:25:19,987
change, will change rather hardware

1290
01:25:20,907 --> 01:25:22,627
and its relation to...

1291
01:25:22,627 --> 01:25:23,807
Oh, I don't think they will.

1292
01:25:24,307 --> 01:25:30,127
they do with the miners, their goal is to produce a -256 hash as

1293
01:25:30,127 --> 01:25:31,827
quickly and as possible.

1294
01:25:32,347 --> 01:25:37,267
And they don't necessarily have any interaction with the software.

1295
01:25:38,187 --> 01:25:39,848
The miners, it's very interesting about miners

1296
01:25:40,008 --> 01:25:42,208
as they are like a race and breed apart.

1297
01:25:42,408 --> 01:25:45,468
They are like this part of Bitcoin that is its own orbit.

1298
01:25:46,968 --> 01:25:51,108
And they all hang out with each other and then they rarely mix, very rarely mix with

1299
01:25:51,108 --> 01:25:51,848
the rest of Bitcoin.

1300
01:25:52,528 --> 01:25:56,768
And it's a very intriguing situation because the miners are the ones who have a huge

1301
01:25:56,768 --> 01:25:58,088
amount of skin in the game.

1302
01:25:58,088 --> 01:25:59,548
they are punished

1303
01:25:59,708 --> 01:26:05,468
The the transaction fees and the usage of the network goes down and they are

1304
01:26:05,468 --> 01:26:08,688
rewarded when it goes up and they're punished when the price goes down and they are

1305
01:26:08,688 --> 01:26:09,888
rewarded when the price goes up.

1306
01:26:10,788 --> 01:26:16,588
So they have all the skin in the game and yet there is an attitude

1307
01:26:16,588 --> 01:26:18,388
in Bitcoin that

1308
01:26:19,569 --> 01:26:24,749
is

1309
01:26:24,749 --> 01:26:28,469
a good example of

1310
01:26:28,469 --> 01:26:39,430
a

1311
01:26:39,430 --> 01:26:42,430
various drama and controversy for many years.

1312
01:26:43,450 --> 01:26:47,170
Absolutely since 2005, excuse me, 2015.

1313
01:26:50,310 --> 01:26:55,950
So yeah, but I think what would change is that miners would become responsible

1314
01:26:55,950 --> 01:26:59,291
collectively for the choosing which sidechains

1315
01:26:59,491 --> 01:27:03,091
are inside the Bitcoin portfolio, like you drop ad,

1316
01:27:04,131 --> 01:27:08,131
they are,

1317
01:27:09,451 --> 01:27:11,251
but they have an incentive to get that right.

1318
01:27:11,431 --> 01:27:12,691
Again, if they choose wisely,

1319
01:27:14,091 --> 01:27:15,971
the transaction fees will be maximized,

1320
01:27:19,172 --> 01:27:23,432
choose poorly, then they will be the ones who suffer.

1321
01:27:26,572 --> 01:27:32,332
But it shouldn't change the actual people designing ASICs and whatnot, and the people

1322
01:27:32,332 --> 01:27:33,912
who are designing mining facilities.

1323
01:27:34,212 --> 01:27:39,012
Their job is just to do this thermodynamic hashing as efficiently

1324
01:27:39,152 --> 01:27:42,472
as possible.

1325
01:27:54,452 --> 01:27:58,772
So is the solution to the controversy going to be some sort of automation?

1326
01:28:02,873 --> 01:28:04,873
What do you mean by controversy?

1327
01:28:04,873 --> 01:28:06,873
I guess a higher form of automation.

1328
01:28:08,873 --> 01:28:18,873
The controversy you referenced with miners not having, you said that miners have a lot

1329
01:28:18,873 --> 01:28:24,873
of skin in the game, right, and that they have too much power and they are not exercising

1330
01:28:24,873 --> 01:28:26,873
that power.

1331
01:28:28,873 --> 01:28:34,873
Yeah, miners culturally have decided that they want, weirdly they are, it's a paradox,

1332
01:28:34,873 --> 01:28:40,873
they are exercising the power because what they have decided is that a lot of developers

1333
01:28:40,873 --> 01:28:46,873
are working on Bitcoin, the developers don't want to be bothered by miners, so the miners

1334
01:28:46,873 --> 01:28:52,873
are not bothering them, the developers, so the miners are doing what they think maximizes

1335
01:28:52,873 --> 01:28:54,873
the value of Bitcoin.

1336
01:28:54,873 --> 01:29:00,873
And you know, on the whole, who can complain, of course, because on the whole, it has been

1337
01:29:00,873 --> 01:29:06,873
the best performing asset financially in the history of capitalism, but over the last five

1338
01:29:06,873 --> 01:29:12,873
years, or six years, five years I suppose, over the last five years it really has not

1339
01:29:12,873 --> 01:29:20,873
net as well as it did the previous eight years, to say the least.

1340
01:29:20,873 --> 01:29:26,873
So, and then of course the difficulty is adjusting every two weeks, and that has put miners in

1341
01:29:26,873 --> 01:29:30,873
a rough spot around now, and of course with the halving coming up, their revenue will

1342
01:29:30,873 --> 01:29:32,873
be cut in half.

1343
01:29:32,873 --> 01:29:40,873
And so, I think they are now, I also think like Taproot came out and it wasn't used at

1344
01:29:40,873 --> 01:29:46,873
all the way the developers intended, and Taproot Assets really has nothing to do, not

1345
01:29:46,873 --> 01:29:54,873
very much to do with Taproot, but it, it's more to do a SegWit, but the point of it being

1346
01:29:54,873 --> 01:30:00,873
this gave the miners a taste of what would happen when certain, like so you know what

1347
01:30:00,873 --> 01:30:08,873
I mean, like the Taproot Ordinals people, they, they are the real developers who are

1348
01:30:08,873 --> 01:30:10,873
working for the miners, because they give the miners more money.

1349
01:30:10,873 --> 01:30:16,873
So the miners are kind of like, slightly have been woke you could say, they're like

1350
01:30:16,873 --> 01:30:25,873
wait a minute, we had from August 2017 to present, we've only had Taproot, which has

1351
01:30:25,873 --> 01:30:31,873
not helped, and, but yet this Ordinals thing helped them make money.

1352
01:30:31,873 --> 01:30:36,873
So I think they are slightly more, they've been disturbed from their slumber, I think

1353
01:30:36,873 --> 01:30:37,873
is my guess.

1354
01:30:37,873 --> 01:30:40,873
It's very hard to say such things though.

1355
01:30:46,873 --> 01:30:52,873
So Paul, the history of SegWit adoption is pretty well documented or relatively well

1356
01:30:52,873 --> 01:30:59,873
documented, but why was it that in that whole time that Taproot was the, was the only BIP

1357
01:30:59,873 --> 01:31:01,873
to be merged?

1358
01:31:01,873 --> 01:31:04,873
What were the kind of the politics behind that?

1359
01:31:05,873 --> 01:31:16,873
I think in general people did not want to like propose any BIP or do anything, but Greg

1360
01:31:16,873 --> 01:31:23,873
Maxwell in January I think 2018, there was a lot of, like there was this mast idea, there

1361
01:31:23,873 --> 01:31:27,873
was Schnorr signatures, that was always very popular.

1362
01:31:27,873 --> 01:31:31,873
Weirdly, a weird thing was that Bitcoin Cash was adding Schnorr.

1363
01:31:31,873 --> 01:31:35,873
That's kind of a funny thing that they did it for first.

1364
01:31:35,873 --> 01:31:42,873
I don't think that was why, but I think this idea was more lightning focused.

1365
01:31:42,873 --> 01:31:47,873
Taproot was more lightning focused because it made a cooperative close.

1366
01:31:47,873 --> 01:31:53,873
It made lots of things look like a regular Bitcoin transaction, even if they weren't,

1367
01:31:53,873 --> 01:31:56,873
or at least that's its aspirational goal.

1368
01:31:56,873 --> 01:32:02,873
And so this was seen as further standardizing lightning, I think.

1369
01:32:02,873 --> 01:32:08,873
So it was still firing on all cylinders for lightning.

1370
01:32:08,873 --> 01:32:14,873
And I think that in general though, what happened was everyone was afraid to push any soft fork,

1371
01:32:14,873 --> 01:32:15,873
including this one.

1372
01:32:15,873 --> 01:32:22,873
And this just happened to be one that Greg Maxwell, Peter Weil, other people had worked

1373
01:32:22,873 --> 01:32:30,873
on, so it had enough prestige to very, very slowly, make it slowly from 2018, you know,

1374
01:32:30,873 --> 01:32:40,873
over three years to November, really four years, 46 months or so, slowly make it across

1375
01:32:40,873 --> 01:32:46,873
the finish line.

1376
01:32:46,873 --> 01:32:56,873
In general, I think the focus would definitely have been like the Bitcoin Cash people are gone.

1377
01:32:56,873 --> 01:32:57,873
We won.

1378
01:32:57,873 --> 01:32:59,873
We'll keep doing what we're doing.

1379
01:32:59,873 --> 01:33:05,873
I think part of it was, of course, that SegWit2x was resisting a change and that Ethereum was

1380
01:33:05,873 --> 01:33:08,873
being more experimental.

1381
01:33:08,873 --> 01:33:15,873
So everyone just made everyone want to be more conservative in BTC, is my guess.

1382
01:33:15,873 --> 01:33:18,873
We have Sheldon Deer.

1383
01:33:18,873 --> 01:33:21,873
Hello.

1384
01:33:21,873 --> 01:33:22,873
Hello.

1385
01:33:22,873 --> 01:33:24,873
Hey, how are you doing?

1386
01:33:24,873 --> 01:33:27,873
I'm doing pretty well.

1387
01:33:27,873 --> 01:33:33,873
I'm getting back to the South Florida area pretty soon, but I'm in Malaysia right now,

1388
01:33:33,873 --> 01:33:36,873
just staying up unreasonably late.

1389
01:33:36,873 --> 01:33:41,873
But I realized that I think I forgot to ask you this question, or if I asked you this

1390
01:33:41,873 --> 01:33:46,873
a while back, I forgot the answer.

1391
01:33:46,873 --> 01:33:54,873
Because I live in shitcoin land most of the time, I hear a lot of aspirational things

1392
01:33:54,873 --> 01:34:00,873
about three cryptographic values or five cryptographic values in a circuit and all of this proofs

1393
01:34:00,873 --> 01:34:06,873
stuff that's all like moderately young and untested.

1394
01:34:06,873 --> 01:34:12,873
I used to see that as sort of the path that I thought would be more acceptable for people

1395
01:34:12,873 --> 01:34:16,873
to store data on Bitcoin, because I love Bitcoin as a source of truth.

1396
01:34:16,873 --> 01:34:25,873
But I wonder, do you have like a sort of standard position when someone criticizes the use of

1397
01:34:25,873 --> 01:34:31,873
HTLCs or is more interested in things like abstraction or just like hash of hash kind

1398
01:34:31,873 --> 01:34:33,873
of silliness?

1399
01:34:33,873 --> 01:34:39,873
Is there a way that I can convince more people, because I do get folks on my side of the wall

1400
01:34:39,873 --> 01:34:43,873
looking at BIP300 and 301 frequently.

1401
01:34:43,873 --> 01:34:51,873
Is there something I can focus on that will help them understand the security value, the

1402
01:34:51,873 --> 01:34:57,873
integration value, instead of focusing on the next cool zero knowledge, whatever buzzword

1403
01:34:57,873 --> 01:35:00,873
kind of thing?

1404
01:35:00,873 --> 01:35:05,873
Like syscoin was my favorite comparison before I learned about drivechains.

1405
01:35:05,873 --> 01:35:09,873
Yes, syscoin is an interesting coin.

1406
01:35:09,873 --> 01:35:17,873
I think people do, they definitely want like a buzzword thing, which is tough because you

1407
01:35:17,873 --> 01:35:22,873
never know what percentage of the people in this food chain are even being honest.

1408
01:35:22,873 --> 01:35:23,873
You know what I mean?

1409
01:35:23,873 --> 01:35:27,873
Like, so there's sometimes there's a coin that's a complete scam and they just say,

1410
01:35:27,873 --> 01:35:31,873
we are going to be the X coin and we are going to do X.

1411
01:35:31,873 --> 01:35:35,873
And then the promoters know that that's false, but they show it anyway.

1412
01:35:35,873 --> 01:35:38,873
And then they are showing it.

1413
01:35:38,873 --> 01:35:43,873
And so then they dump on retail and then the scam is over.

1414
01:35:43,873 --> 01:35:48,873
But sometimes something's pretty real, like sort of like Monero being a privacy.

1415
01:35:48,873 --> 01:35:51,873
Monero is like we are going to be the privacy coin.

1416
01:35:51,873 --> 01:35:58,873
Bitcoin is not focused as much on doing this like quickly and rapidly.

1417
01:35:58,873 --> 01:36:00,873
Monero is willing to hard fork every six months.

1418
01:36:00,873 --> 01:36:03,873
So Monero is doing that XMR.

1419
01:36:03,873 --> 01:36:08,873
And so the promoters seem relatively honest also.

1420
01:36:08,873 --> 01:36:11,873
But there's a mix of everything in between.

1421
01:36:11,873 --> 01:36:16,873
And it's very tough when, as you say, someone has the buzzword, it's like, do they even

1422
01:36:16,873 --> 01:36:21,873
really like am I scamming myself by paying attention to this?

1423
01:36:21,873 --> 01:36:24,873
Am I scamming myself by researching it?

1424
01:36:24,873 --> 01:36:28,873
And then I'm going to write like a carefully worded response.

1425
01:36:28,873 --> 01:36:33,873
But really everyone knows that it's fake and I'm just the most gullible person in the room.

1426
01:36:33,873 --> 01:36:37,873
And so it's very treacherous out there.

1427
01:36:37,873 --> 01:36:39,873
Of course, we even do this in Bitcoin.

1428
01:36:39,873 --> 01:36:43,873
Of course, we have many things we say that aren't true.

1429
01:36:43,873 --> 01:36:46,873
It's like, do people know they're not true?

1430
01:36:46,873 --> 01:36:51,873
So I think it's probably the case with literally every industry, I'm sure.

1431
01:36:51,873 --> 01:36:53,873
I knew someone who was a home.

1432
01:36:53,873 --> 01:36:58,873
They were like a contractor that did like home repair, modeling energy efficiency stuff.

1433
01:36:58,873 --> 01:37:01,873
And constantly this guy and this guy was a very smart guy.

1434
01:37:01,873 --> 01:37:04,873
And he would constantly say, oh, this industry is the worst.

1435
01:37:04,873 --> 01:37:06,873
Everyone in this industry is dishonest.

1436
01:37:06,873 --> 01:37:07,873
Everyone's scamming everyone.

1437
01:37:07,873 --> 01:37:09,873
And I was like, oh, it's just like this.

1438
01:37:09,873 --> 01:37:11,873
It's just like the crypto Bitcoin industry.

1439
01:37:11,873 --> 01:37:13,873
And they're like, oh, OK, whatever.

1440
01:37:13,873 --> 01:37:20,873
So I don't know if that answers your question, but that's my first thought.

1441
01:37:20,873 --> 01:37:22,873
Does that help at all?

1442
01:37:22,873 --> 01:37:29,873
No, but it reminds me of me laughing at the acronym ZTNA because in IT security,

1443
01:37:29,873 --> 01:37:39,873
the idea that you could sell someone a product or a service based specifically on the implementation of best practices and software level security controls is very funny to me.

1444
01:37:39,873 --> 01:37:52,873
But no, to be less rambly and whining about it, is there any part of the BIPs that you would refer to if someone was sort of like, you know,

1445
01:37:52,873 --> 01:37:59,873
questioning the security value versus the performant values of the two BIPs that make up drivechains?

1446
01:37:59,873 --> 01:38:01,873
The security value versus the performant value.

1447
01:38:01,873 --> 01:38:03,873
Well, it's the security.

1448
01:38:03,873 --> 01:38:08,873
It has to be understood the right way, which is to my dismay, most people do not understand it.

1449
01:38:08,873 --> 01:38:13,873
But if you go into my tweet highlights, I reply to Tidwell.

1450
01:38:13,873 --> 01:38:17,873
And if you go also on drivechain.info, there's like an article section.

1451
01:38:17,873 --> 01:38:29,873
But there's this idea that it's an economic security where the miners are supposed to be comparing what is the transaction fees they're getting to how many coins they can steal.

1452
01:38:30,873 --> 01:38:40,873
And the cool thing is you can deposit like one bitcoin into a drivechain and then it can be circulating a ton.

1453
01:38:40,873 --> 01:38:42,873
And the whole bitcoin can be eaten up.

1454
01:38:42,873 --> 01:38:45,873
Like a million users use it a million times.

1455
01:38:45,873 --> 01:38:50,873
Each person is going to pay whatever that would come out to be, 100 sats or something.

1456
01:38:50,873 --> 01:38:53,873
Don't hold me to that math, but I think that's right.

1457
01:38:54,873 --> 01:38:55,873
And they're going to do that.

1458
01:38:55,873 --> 01:39:03,873
And then within 24 hours, the whole coin will be used up, which is to say it will have incrementally like grains of sand falling through an hourglass.

1459
01:39:03,873 --> 01:39:14,873
It will incrementally be owned by whoever's mining the sidechain blocks over there, which because of blind merge mining could be itself a user.

1460
01:39:14,873 --> 01:39:22,873
So the point I'm trying to make is you can have a desert island where there's $1, but the dollar can circulate so much that it can be used in every transaction.

1461
01:39:22,873 --> 01:39:34,873
And so $1 could have $1 a day of transaction fees or it could have $1 million a day or $10 billion a day of transaction fees.

1462
01:39:34,873 --> 01:39:40,873
So the security model is just that the fees that the miners are earning outweighs what they could steal.

1463
01:39:41,873 --> 01:39:43,873
And it could be any way that could happen.

1464
01:39:43,873 --> 01:39:45,873
That breakdown could be any way.

1465
01:39:45,873 --> 01:39:50,873
Someone could put 100,000 bitcoins into a sidechain that is never used and has zero fees.

1466
01:39:51,688 --> 01:39:56,688
And so it's a kind of a tricky thing. The security is unusual.

1467
01:39:56,688 --> 01:40:01,688
And apparently it's very, I mean, to me, it's not that weird at all.

1468
01:40:01,688 --> 01:40:10,688
It's really just like a this greater than that type of a thing, like net present value greater than some, like stock versus flow type of a thing.

1469
01:40:10,688 --> 01:40:19,688
It's not that weird, but apparently just judging by the reaction, this is like a mind-blowingly revolutionary type of security.

1470
01:40:19,688 --> 01:40:23,688
And so people have very strong opinions about it.

1471
01:40:23,688 --> 01:40:27,688
So that would be step one would be to frame the security the right way.

1472
01:40:27,688 --> 01:40:34,688
And if you go to my tweets and you go to highlights and you find the answer of the Tidwell, it's in there.

1473
01:40:34,688 --> 01:40:37,688
And I answer, I'll try to reply to all of the.

1474
01:40:37,688 --> 01:40:40,688
But yeah, like Ethereum has 7.2 million.

1475
01:40:41,688 --> 01:40:48,688
Back when I did the math to answer his question, it had $7 million of fees per day.

1476
01:40:48,688 --> 01:40:54,688
And that just comes out to like 100,000 or even a million coins, depending on some parameters.

1477
01:40:54,688 --> 01:41:03,688
It comes out to hundreds of thousands of coins could be safely stored where the fees would be greater than the coin amount.

1478
01:41:03,688 --> 01:41:09,688
So I don't know, that's sort of rambly, but hopefully that is closer to helping.

1479
01:41:09,688 --> 01:41:15,688
That helps a lot. Yeah, I'm very familiar with economic security from my side of the wall.

1480
01:41:15,688 --> 01:41:21,688
But it's a lot easier when you're linking to real numbers about active blocks being produced, blah, blah, blah.

1481
01:41:26,688 --> 01:41:30,688
Yeah, so you can probably look that up and hopefully it will help you.

1482
01:41:30,688 --> 01:41:36,688
Because the highlights are great and there's only about, I would say like 15, 16 of them.

1483
01:41:36,688 --> 01:41:42,688
So even though they're all long, I highly recommend anyone check out my Twitter highlights,

1484
01:41:42,688 --> 01:41:46,688
because a lot of these questions I've been asked many times before.

1485
01:41:48,688 --> 01:41:50,688
Yeah, sorry about that. I appreciate you saving me the time.

1486
01:41:50,688 --> 01:41:54,688
Maybe I'll see you around Bitcoin Brunch, but I'll go catch up again.

1487
01:41:54,688 --> 01:41:56,688
Oh, cool. Yeah, good to see you there.

1488
01:41:58,688 --> 01:42:02,688
Okay, Joe has a hand. Hello again, Joe.

1489
01:42:02,688 --> 01:42:06,688
Hey, yeah, just one thing to throw out there.

1490
01:42:06,688 --> 01:42:11,688
Whenever I hear people talking about security, I just, I get very, my ears perk up,

1491
01:42:11,688 --> 01:42:18,688
because I think the difficulty with advocating for drivechains is that nobody is willing to define it.

1492
01:42:18,688 --> 01:42:22,688
And I've pointed out before, and a lot of people pointed out before,

1493
01:42:22,688 --> 01:42:26,688
that like the subsidy doesn't obviously add to Bitcoin security.

1494
01:42:26,688 --> 01:42:32,688
On the other hand, like, you know, any miners at any time can just censor your coins.

1495
01:42:32,688 --> 01:42:36,688
And if they can coordinate well, they could, you know, it's hard.

1496
01:42:36,688 --> 01:42:42,688
Like, they could just basically, what would you call it, just ransom your coins.

1497
01:42:42,688 --> 01:42:47,688
So I was just thinking about applying that to, like, if people are okay with multi-sigs,

1498
01:42:47,688 --> 01:42:51,688
that are like federated sidechains,

1499
01:42:51,688 --> 01:42:59,688
then, you know, it seems like they're also vulnerable to miners coordinating to ransoming them

1500
01:42:59,688 --> 01:43:02,688
in the same way that they could with drivechains.

1501
01:43:02,688 --> 01:43:05,688
So it seems to help, the kind of argument.

1502
01:43:05,688 --> 01:43:07,688
So that's just one kind of point.

1503
01:43:07,688 --> 01:43:17,688
And then the other one is like, I'd love it if maybe you can write like a post describing security in blockchains.

1504
01:43:18,688 --> 01:43:23,688
Like I've tweeted some ideas about it, but it just seems so obviously confusing.

1505
01:43:23,688 --> 01:43:28,688
Like, you know, there's no fundamental security from somebody forking your coin,

1506
01:43:28,688 --> 01:43:31,688
like forking Bitcoin and taking your coins, right?

1507
01:43:31,688 --> 01:43:36,688
So with respect to that new blockchain they create, I have no security.

1508
01:43:36,688 --> 01:43:38,688
I have written two things.

1509
01:43:38,688 --> 01:43:42,688
One is the security budget, the two security budget articles, which are about,

1510
01:43:42,688 --> 01:43:43,688
because there's two different things.

1511
01:43:43,688 --> 01:43:47,688
There's the cost of, one I wrote in September 2015.

1512
01:43:47,688 --> 01:43:54,688
I wrote this post measuring decentralization, and that is about the cost of spinning up a new full node,

1513
01:43:54,688 --> 01:43:58,688
which is basically the cost of the cell dividing.

1514
01:43:58,688 --> 01:44:02,688
And it's like you have a full node, and how can you get a new full node?

1515
01:44:02,688 --> 01:44:07,688
And the lower this is, the easier it is for the network to just regenerate if like 90% of the nodes are destroyed

1516
01:44:07,688 --> 01:44:10,688
or if you are on the run and you need a new node.

1517
01:44:11,688 --> 01:44:20,688
So I wrote that, and then I wrote, that's the cost, that's like how decentralized the network is

1518
01:44:20,688 --> 01:44:22,688
and how easy it is to run node.

1519
01:44:22,688 --> 01:44:26,688
And that one has dollar amounts, and that one has, it's like what happened,

1520
01:44:26,688 --> 01:44:30,688
how do you handle like hard fork or whatever, things like that.

1521
01:44:30,688 --> 01:44:36,688
And then the second type of thing that I wrote is this about the security budget,

1522
01:44:36,688 --> 01:44:43,688
which is just the total amount of money paid to miners, which is that each transaction fee is added up.

1523
01:44:43,688 --> 01:44:49,688
It's like a strength in numbers thing where each one goes, all of that,

1524
01:44:49,688 --> 01:44:53,688
the sum total of that money is paid to miners, and the harder they work,

1525
01:44:53,688 --> 01:44:57,688
the more proof of work there is on each block header.

1526
01:44:58,688 --> 01:45:05,688
So if you have lots of transactions that pay a high fee, then all of the transactions,

1527
01:45:05,688 --> 01:45:07,688
the proof of work goes up on them all.

1528
01:45:07,688 --> 01:45:11,688
But if you only have a blockchain where there's only three transactions and they pay a tiny fee,

1529
01:45:11,688 --> 01:45:16,688
then all three of them have small proof of work.

1530
01:45:16,688 --> 01:45:20,688
And so the higher the security budget is, the more proof of work there is.

1531
01:45:20,688 --> 01:45:26,688
If the security budget falls to like zero, then there basically is no proof of work in the blockchain.

1532
01:45:26,688 --> 01:45:29,688
So those are some things that I have written about.

1533
01:45:29,688 --> 01:45:34,688
Yeah, I think the direction and the measuring decentralization one is really great.

1534
01:45:34,688 --> 01:45:38,688
And I think the more you think about it, the more obvious that becomes.

1535
01:45:38,688 --> 01:45:42,688
Like we want it cheap to coordinate on which is the right chain.

1536
01:45:42,688 --> 01:45:48,688
So that would be, you know, cost of running a node that makes a whole lot of sense.

1537
01:45:48,688 --> 01:45:54,688
The cost of checking the entire blockchain for errors, which is also key.

1538
01:45:55,688 --> 01:46:03,688
And I think it's helpful to reinterpret inflation as a small amount of theft happening continuously,

1539
01:46:03,688 --> 01:46:06,688
small amount of insecurity happening continuously.

1540
01:46:06,688 --> 01:46:09,688
Not just in this case, but everywhere.

1541
01:46:09,688 --> 01:46:14,688
It's the inflation that you tax on the holder of the currency.

1542
01:46:14,688 --> 01:46:18,688
That's right. And there's not a whole lot of, you know, if you're risk neutral,

1543
01:46:18,688 --> 01:46:21,688
there's not a whole lot of difference between losing 1% every year

1544
01:46:21,688 --> 01:46:23,688
and then having a 1% chance of losing everything every year.

1545
01:46:23,688 --> 01:46:32,688
So it would be nice to have a kind of a framework that we can all agree to on this.

1546
01:46:32,688 --> 01:46:36,688
And then to obviously point out, to push back against Peter Todd,

1547
01:46:36,688 --> 01:46:42,688
that the adding subsidy, you were talking about transaction fees before very correctly,

1548
01:46:42,688 --> 01:46:47,688
but the subsidy that's given to the miners, no matter what chain they mine.

1549
01:46:48,688 --> 01:46:53,688
Right. That wouldn't help if they wanted to censor, for example,

1550
01:46:53,688 --> 01:46:57,688
or if they wanted to just hold people hostage.

1551
01:46:57,688 --> 01:47:00,688
Exactly. And there are different types of tax.

1552
01:47:00,688 --> 01:47:03,688
I think he's just trying to be contrarian with his tail.

1553
01:47:03,688 --> 01:47:07,688
He's like, oh, I'm so edgy, I'll break even the 21 million coin limit.

1554
01:47:07,688 --> 01:47:11,688
I don't even think it, I'm not even sure it's a clear thing.

1555
01:47:11,688 --> 01:47:15,688
I don't, you know, I don't really know what you're talking about.

1556
01:47:16,688 --> 01:47:18,688
There's differential equations about it.

1557
01:47:18,688 --> 01:47:22,688
Like surprisingly, tail emission is not inflationary,

1558
01:47:22,688 --> 01:47:27,688
which is like an absurd abuse of the math,

1559
01:47:27,688 --> 01:47:31,688
which basically just says that it will be inflationary for like hundreds of years.

1560
01:47:31,688 --> 01:47:35,688
And then eventually, if some percentage of people lose it,

1561
01:47:35,688 --> 01:47:39,688
it's a very bizarre interpretation of whatever he's saying.

1562
01:47:39,688 --> 01:47:42,688
So I don't even know what he's doing. I think it's kind of a performance.

1563
01:47:42,688 --> 01:47:46,688
I want to add something to the way I understand the security of drivechains.

1564
01:47:46,688 --> 01:47:50,688
You can correct me if I'm wrong. I try to like zoom out a little bit.

1565
01:47:50,688 --> 01:47:54,688
And basically, if somebody sends me Bitcoin,

1566
01:47:54,688 --> 01:47:59,688
I'm at risk of those Bitcoin getting reorged with a 51 percent attack.

1567
01:47:59,688 --> 01:48:02,688
I have no idea if miners, for one reason or another,

1568
01:48:02,688 --> 01:48:04,688
will just reorg any Bitcoin that I'm receiving.

1569
01:48:04,688 --> 01:48:08,688
So I'm assuming that at least 50 percent are being honest.

1570
01:48:08,688 --> 01:48:12,688
And from my understanding, that's the assumption of the security of Bitcoin,

1571
01:48:12,688 --> 01:48:14,688
that more than 50 percent of the hash rate would be honest.

1572
01:48:14,688 --> 01:48:17,688
And there's an economic incentive for them to be honest.

1573
01:48:17,688 --> 01:48:20,688
I think the white paper talks about that, too.

1574
01:48:20,688 --> 01:48:23,688
So I think that drivechain is pretty much the exact same assumption

1575
01:48:23,688 --> 01:48:27,688
where you're assuming at least 50 percent of the network is going to be honest.

1576
01:48:27,688 --> 01:48:29,688
And as long as at least 50 percent is honest,

1577
01:48:29,688 --> 01:48:31,688
then they cannot steal from the drivechain then.

1578
01:48:31,688 --> 01:48:35,688
So the way I understand it, it's almost like the exact same security assumption

1579
01:48:35,688 --> 01:48:37,688
that Bitcoin already has.

1580
01:48:37,688 --> 01:48:39,688
It basically is.

1581
01:48:39,688 --> 01:48:44,688
The literal assumption is 50 percent is not conspiring to attack the network.

1582
01:48:44,688 --> 01:48:46,688
So that's the same assumption.

1583
01:48:46,688 --> 01:48:49,688
And then with drivechain, it's kind of like you have

1584
01:48:49,688 --> 01:48:53,688
slightly more of an ability to direct the funds.

1585
01:48:53,688 --> 01:49:02,688
But that's also why it's just limited to this extremely slow one check-in per three months.

1586
01:49:03,688 --> 01:49:07,688
So that has many important effects.

1587
01:49:07,688 --> 01:49:09,688
Someone asked about that earlier.

1588
01:49:09,688 --> 01:49:13,688
But one additional effect it has is that you have to pre-commit.

1589
01:49:13,688 --> 01:49:17,688
On day one, you have to say where you will send the funds.

1590
01:49:17,688 --> 01:49:21,688
But because of just variations in hash rate over the three months,

1591
01:49:21,688 --> 01:49:32,688
and, of course, people, the miners may leave the coalition and mine a different coin or something.

1592
01:49:32,688 --> 01:49:36,688
So what I'm trying to say is they declare the destination on day one,

1593
01:49:36,688 --> 01:49:41,688
but over three months, the pie chart can change as to whose hash rate is going where

1594
01:49:41,688 --> 01:49:44,688
or whether or not it's all being.

1595
01:49:44,688 --> 01:49:47,688
Bitcoin already can actually be more secure than just the base layer

1596
01:49:47,688 --> 01:49:50,688
because the base layer can get revealed in three blocks.

1597
01:49:50,688 --> 01:49:53,688
Whereas on a drivechain to get stolen from, it's way more than three blocks.

1598
01:49:53,688 --> 01:49:58,688
Yes, it's comparable to literally like a 13,000 block reorg.

1599
01:49:58,688 --> 01:50:01,688
Basically, yeah. That's the way I'm looking at it.

1600
01:50:01,688 --> 01:50:04,688
It's comparable to the 13,000 reorg on the base layer.

1601
01:50:04,688 --> 01:50:12,688
So on one sense, the miners do have an ability to direct the funds more directly,

1602
01:50:12,688 --> 01:50:15,688
even though this is also limited, as I've said,

1603
01:50:15,688 --> 01:50:18,688
because they have to kind of divide it amongst themselves.

1604
01:50:19,688 --> 01:50:21,688
And they don't really know exactly how

1605
01:50:21,688 --> 01:50:24,688
because they don't know what will happen over the three months that they're doing this.

1606
01:50:24,688 --> 01:50:27,688
New miners could show up. Some miners could quit.

1607
01:50:27,688 --> 01:50:32,688
So they have slightly more impact, but then they have all these downsides.

1608
01:50:32,688 --> 01:50:36,688
So I think it actually comes out to be a wash or better.

1609
01:50:36,688 --> 01:50:41,688
And then when you throw in the whole fees thing, then I think it looks just fine.

1610
01:50:41,688 --> 01:50:44,688
So that's why I've never been – that's why we make quantum.

1611
01:50:44,688 --> 01:50:46,688
I think the fees thing is the most important part

1612
01:50:46,688 --> 01:50:49,688
because that's the economic incentive that's keeping them honest, right?

1613
01:50:49,688 --> 01:50:52,688
Because if you were to say that they would steal from a drivechain,

1614
01:50:52,688 --> 01:50:54,688
then one can say, well, then good.

1615
01:50:54,688 --> 01:50:58,688
That drivechain, according to the free market, is not a good drivechain, right?

1616
01:50:58,688 --> 01:51:01,688
Right. And that's the other thing that people didn't really understand,

1617
01:51:01,688 --> 01:51:04,688
even though I tried to explain it in detail in 2016,

1618
01:51:04,688 --> 01:51:07,688
which is that since the chains can be very complicated

1619
01:51:07,688 --> 01:51:11,688
and they can have what we would today call cross-chain MEV,

1620
01:51:12,688 --> 01:51:15,688
but what had no name back then.

1621
01:51:15,688 --> 01:51:18,688
I called it destructive sidechain interference.

1622
01:51:18,688 --> 01:51:21,688
But since the sidechains could interfere with each other,

1623
01:51:21,688 --> 01:51:24,688
you wanted a way to pull the plug on some, in fact,

1624
01:51:24,688 --> 01:51:28,688
because it's theoretically possible to write one that was very mean-spirited.

1625
01:51:28,688 --> 01:51:32,688
And so you'd say, well, if this one is no good, we just want to pull the plug on it.

1626
01:51:32,688 --> 01:51:36,688
So I actually solved the problem of what today would be called cross-chain MEV

1627
01:51:36,688 --> 01:51:42,688
back in May 2016 with a presentation I did called sidechain privatization,

1628
01:51:42,688 --> 01:51:46,688
which basically says that miners, you know, they…

1629
01:51:46,688 --> 01:51:50,688
I watched those videos. By the way, they're really good videos on your YouTube.

1630
01:51:50,688 --> 01:51:53,688
The sidechain privatization and the miner risks as well.

1631
01:51:53,688 --> 01:51:56,688
Yeah. I'm glad you liked them. I enjoyed making them.

1632
01:52:00,688 --> 01:52:03,688
Anyway, it seems like you understand it very well.

1633
01:52:04,688 --> 01:52:06,688
Thank you. If I may ask, you should…

1634
01:52:06,688 --> 01:52:10,688
I know that in one of your videos you said you wanted to make videos on the blind merge mining,

1635
01:52:10,688 --> 01:52:14,688
but you didn't have time. Maybe if you do have time, you can make that series of blind merge mining.

1636
01:52:14,688 --> 01:52:16,688
You know, we got a great…

1637
01:52:16,688 --> 01:52:20,688
If you go to layer2levers.com, we have some infographics,

1638
01:52:20,688 --> 01:52:24,688
and the blind merge mining one, there's one if you click.

1639
01:52:24,688 --> 01:52:27,688
And that one came out really well. I think it did anyway.

1640
01:52:27,688 --> 01:52:31,688
So maybe we'll post it by itself as a tweet.

1641
01:52:31,688 --> 01:52:33,688
But that's a good one right there.

1642
01:52:33,688 --> 01:52:37,688
And then if you just… The BIP itself, the text is not so bad,

1643
01:52:37,688 --> 01:52:39,688
especially after I added this table.

1644
01:52:39,688 --> 01:52:42,688
I added this table of like what happens.

1645
01:52:42,688 --> 01:52:44,688
And I think the table was…

1646
01:52:44,688 --> 01:52:46,688
I think I understand it abstractly,

1647
01:52:46,688 --> 01:52:52,688
but I just really enjoyed the, like, you know, the several hour videos of you explaining the other parts.

1648
01:52:52,688 --> 01:52:55,688
That's why I thought if you were to explain that part in a similar way…

1649
01:52:55,688 --> 01:52:59,688
I kind of am vaguely remembering it now that I actually had the slides,

1650
01:52:59,688 --> 01:53:01,688
and I was like, this video is just too long.

1651
01:53:01,688 --> 01:53:03,688
And I kind of skipped through them all.

1652
01:53:03,688 --> 01:53:06,688
And they had slides with like pink transparent rectangles and stuff.

1653
01:53:06,688 --> 01:53:08,688
And I was like, I don't have time for this.

1654
01:53:08,688 --> 01:53:12,688
I just go back and just do those slides again.

1655
01:53:12,688 --> 01:53:13,688
That's kind of funny.

1656
01:53:13,688 --> 01:53:16,688
But that video ended up being like whatever, like five hours or something.

1657
01:53:16,688 --> 01:53:17,688
So that's kind of funny.

1658
01:53:21,688 --> 01:53:22,688
Yeah, thanks.

1659
01:53:22,688 --> 01:53:26,688
Just wanted to add my understanding of the security of drivechains.

1660
01:53:30,688 --> 01:53:38,688
Cool.

1661
01:53:38,688 --> 01:53:39,688
Okay, great.

1662
01:53:39,688 --> 01:53:42,688
I think I will have to go soon.

1663
01:53:42,688 --> 01:53:46,688
I have a busy day this particular day.

1664
01:53:46,688 --> 01:53:56,688
But I think next week we may be able to go for a bajillion hours if people are still interested in these spaces.

1665
01:53:56,688 --> 01:53:57,688
I hope they are.

1666
01:53:57,688 --> 01:54:01,688
I think they're going very well.

1667
01:54:01,688 --> 01:54:03,688
So I like that.

1668
01:54:03,688 --> 01:54:08,688
But if you really want to say something, then please come up now.

1669
01:54:08,688 --> 01:54:15,688
And then don't complain later like, oh.

1670
01:54:15,688 --> 01:54:17,688
Because here's your chance.

1671
01:54:17,688 --> 01:54:20,688
Yeah, I would say thank you for these spaces.

1672
01:54:20,688 --> 01:54:22,688
Have a good weekend.

1673
01:54:22,688 --> 01:54:24,688
But I really enjoy these spaces, especially last week.

1674
01:54:24,688 --> 01:54:25,688
I listened over.

1675
01:54:25,688 --> 01:54:29,688
I really enjoy new people coming up and just asking completely new questions.

1676
01:54:29,688 --> 01:54:32,688
Just like the base, base, base questions.

1677
01:54:32,688 --> 01:54:34,688
Completely newbie questions.

1678
01:54:34,688 --> 01:54:38,688
I think that helps a lot of people that might just join, even though they've been asked it a million times.

1679
01:54:38,688 --> 01:54:44,688
Sometimes to a certain person you might say it differently and it might resonate with others.

1680
01:54:44,688 --> 01:54:45,688
Yeah, I think that's good.

1681
01:54:45,688 --> 01:54:53,688
I mean, on the one hand, there is like the RTFM or whatever, and there's an FAQ, and there's a site, there's a project site.

1682
01:54:53,688 --> 01:54:57,688
But on the other hand, it's like, you know, it's a new idea.

1683
01:54:57,688 --> 01:55:01,688
Yeah, just being able to come over here and like to talk to people is just powerful, you know.

1684
01:55:01,688 --> 01:55:05,688
And to ask your regular simple question and have somebody here that will answer you.

1685
01:55:05,688 --> 01:55:11,688
That's good.

1686
01:55:11,688 --> 01:55:15,688
We don't seem to be having very many takers.

1687
01:55:15,688 --> 01:55:19,688
I will give it until 3 p.m. Eastern time.

1688
01:55:19,688 --> 01:55:21,688
But, yeah, I think the spaces have been going well.

1689
01:55:22,688 --> 01:55:26,688
They were sort of slow before, then dramatically ramped up.

1690
01:55:26,688 --> 01:55:28,688
And then, oh, we have a Greg.

1691
01:55:28,688 --> 01:55:39,688
Hello.

1692
01:55:39,688 --> 01:55:42,688
As this often happens, when the speaker comes up, they get delayed like 20 seconds.

1693
01:55:43,688 --> 01:55:54,688
So then I say they're up, but they're not really up until around now.

1694
01:55:54,688 --> 01:55:55,688
Greg, you're muted.

1695
01:55:55,688 --> 01:55:56,688
Maybe you can unmute yourself.

1696
01:55:56,688 --> 01:55:57,688
Yeah.

1697
01:55:57,688 --> 01:55:58,688
Okay.

1698
01:55:58,688 --> 01:55:59,688
Here I am.

1699
01:55:59,688 --> 01:56:00,688
Here I am.

1700
01:56:00,688 --> 01:56:01,688
Here I am.

1701
01:56:01,688 --> 01:56:02,688
I'm sorry.

1702
01:56:02,688 --> 01:56:03,688
Okay.

1703
01:56:03,688 --> 01:56:04,688
Now I'm okay.

1704
01:56:04,688 --> 01:56:05,688
It defaults to mute.

1705
01:56:05,688 --> 01:56:06,688
I didn't know that.

1706
01:56:06,688 --> 01:56:07,688
So I have two questions.

1707
01:56:08,688 --> 01:56:26,688
What I've heard described today is that there's a potential winner-take-all scenario whereby a drivechain, if successful and grows to mass adoption, could eat all of the execution activity on top of Ethereum.

1708
01:56:26,688 --> 01:56:28,688
Is that correct?

1709
01:56:28,688 --> 01:56:29,688
Yes, of course.

1710
01:56:29,688 --> 01:56:31,688
I think you understand it very well.

1711
01:56:31,688 --> 01:56:33,688
I remember you from last week.

1712
01:56:33,688 --> 01:56:34,688
Yeah, that's the whole idea.

1713
01:56:34,688 --> 01:56:36,688
This was always the plan from 2015.

1714
01:56:36,688 --> 01:56:42,688
This was considered an uncontroversial and very, very good thing back then.

1715
01:56:42,688 --> 01:56:43,688
Yeah.

1716
01:56:43,688 --> 01:56:50,688
So that's a very interesting concept.

1717
01:56:50,688 --> 01:56:55,688
And not that I advocate for it, but I don't want to bet against it.

1718
01:56:55,688 --> 01:56:57,688
I'm just – it's interesting to understand.

1719
01:56:58,688 --> 01:57:26,688
The other question I have is, if that were to happen, would drivechain activity somehow – well, first of all, if you make the assumption that there's a security budget dilemma as we go through multiple halvings and the issuance rewards continue to reduce and the price fails to double every halving and the fees don't go up,

1720
01:57:26,688 --> 01:57:39,688
then mathematically there's a security budget deficit, which is controversial, but just assuming that it's the case, can drivechains be a solution to that?

1721
01:57:39,688 --> 01:57:43,688
Yes, and in fact I've written in detail about this.

1722
01:57:43,688 --> 01:58:05,688
I have a post-security budget to low fees and merged mining, and I think the merged mining fees will be – I mean ultimately like in 10 or 20 years they could be 10,000 times or even higher the L1 fees, and all those are L1 miners.

1723
01:58:06,688 --> 01:58:15,688
So I have all of that in this giant post that I wrote that maybe I'll retweet or something.

1724
01:58:15,688 --> 01:58:26,688
But yeah, I wrote all about all of that, about the fees are not up, and I say even if the price of different reaches its highest possible value, that may not be enough.

1725
01:58:27,688 --> 01:58:37,688
It won't be. Ultimately it cannot double every four years indefinitely because in not too long a period of time it exceeds the global monetary supply.

1726
01:58:37,688 --> 01:58:38,688
Yeah, I know.

1727
01:58:38,688 --> 01:58:39,688
It just can't.

1728
01:58:39,688 --> 01:58:41,688
Not a lot of people have done that math.

1729
01:58:41,688 --> 01:58:52,688
It can't. It's not mathematically possible, and exponential growth increases obviously, doubles every – it's an astounding…

1730
01:58:52,688 --> 01:58:57,688
It doesn't have to be much, much higher than the GDP of the entire world of one week or something, which is like…

1731
01:58:57,688 --> 01:58:59,688
That's only 20 years from now.

1732
01:58:59,688 --> 01:59:06,688
What people don't realize is that exponential growth is much quicker than they envision.

1733
01:59:06,688 --> 01:59:09,688
It's the same thing as the growth of the price of Bitcoin.

1734
01:59:09,688 --> 01:59:16,688
It grew exponentially, and it's the same thing that would happen to a miner subsidy deficit.

1735
01:59:17,688 --> 01:59:23,688
It goes – well, I mean put it this way.

1736
01:59:23,688 --> 01:59:27,688
If it doesn't double every four years, but in the 2040s we're going to have a problem.

1737
01:59:27,688 --> 01:59:29,688
That's 20 years from now.

1738
01:59:29,688 --> 01:59:31,688
We're going to have a serious problem.

1739
01:59:31,688 --> 01:59:40,688
So the price has to double every four years, or fees have to go from 1 to 2 percent all the way up to 90 percent, or something else has to happen.

1740
01:59:41,688 --> 01:59:48,688
There are a number of solutions. There are a number of ideas, but the problem that I see is that the Bitcoin maxis, not to disparage them, but they resist all of it.

1741
01:59:48,688 --> 01:59:49,688
They just –

1742
01:59:49,688 --> 01:59:50,688
They do.

1743
01:59:50,688 --> 01:59:57,688
So I think if you search Truthcoin and then security budget in the long run, I think you should find my February 2019 post.

1744
01:59:58,108 --> 02:00:15,108
And then once you're on my site, you can probably find the other post, the archive. But the first post is a little shorter, and in that post I assume that it reaches the value of all M2 money immediately and then grows at that combined rate.

1745
02:00:15,108 --> 02:00:28,108
So I have it at like 20, 30, 40 million dollars a coin, and I do the math out about that. It's like a vanishingly small – even with the halvings, it's a vanishingly small percent of –

1746
02:00:28,108 --> 02:00:29,108
Right, right.

1747
02:00:30,108 --> 02:00:48,108
… but then I just write if we only absorbed – if we only had a payment sidechain that just did what Visa's numbers were and growing at the rate that Visa's numbers grow, it would actually be an ever-growing percentage of its own market cap. So it would be very large.

1748
02:00:48,108 --> 02:00:53,108
And it would make the miners whole. My main concern is can the miners stay in business?

1749
02:00:53,108 --> 02:00:54,108
Right.

1750
02:00:54,108 --> 02:01:08,108
Well, and it's also – it's not about hash rate. It's about the cost of attacking the network versus the market cap of the network. It's not the hash rate. It's the cost to reproduce 51 percent of the hash rate. It's not the number of hashes.

1751
02:01:08,108 --> 02:01:21,108
The hash rate unfortunately is conflated by changes in ASIC technology, which is a pretty straightforward point, but a lot of people just – they really – they like that whole thermodynamic angle, so they're very gung-ho about that.

1752
02:01:22,108 --> 02:01:30,108
Right, but will they stop thinking about it once they reach a rationalization or an answer that may not be deep enough?

1753
02:01:31,108 --> 02:01:40,108
Okay, so I'm asking these questions because I've been trying to see a future for the security budget for a long time, and I'm a Bitcoin investor.

1754
02:01:40,108 --> 02:01:49,108
I'm just trying to look at the long term of how is it going to survive if fees don't grow?

1755
02:01:50,108 --> 02:02:03,108
Yeah, so I think you should check out my cool – I wrote a huge – like in enormous depth. This first article is pretty short, and the second one is very long, and I go into enormous detail of graphs and everything, of numbers.

1756
02:02:03,108 --> 02:02:14,108
And what about centralization? Is drivechain – what's the short answer to – is it part of the controversy that it's considered to be too centralized? And if so…

1757
02:02:14,108 --> 02:02:30,108
I think this is a mistake. People have confused a lot of different things, but I happen to also have written an essay which was very, very popular with the mainstream back in 2015 when I wrote it called Measuring Decentralization, and that is about the cost of running an L1 full node.

1758
02:02:30,108 --> 02:02:41,108
But that is exactly what – 300 and 301 do not change that at all. In fact, they allow us to shrink the layer one block size, making it cheaper to run a full node, but that's besides the point.

1759
02:02:41,108 --> 02:02:47,108
The point is you don't have to run an L1 full node. You don't need to run any of the sidechains. That's the whole point.

1760
02:02:48,108 --> 02:03:00,108
And so it doesn't affect centralization at all, and then people have this invented category of decentralization, which turns out to mean a lot of different things at once depending on who you're talking to.

1761
02:03:00,108 --> 02:03:06,108
But I have – believe it or not, on truthcoin.info I have essays about all that as well in January 2017.

1762
02:03:07,108 --> 02:03:17,108
Okay, and how far away is this from going from a proposal to something that's being implemented?

1763
02:03:17,108 --> 02:03:23,108
We have the software already. In fact, we're going to release a new version of the software basically today.

1764
02:03:23,108 --> 02:03:29,108
But if you go to drivechain.info slash releases, you can see a lot of the software, but you won't even see all of it.

1765
02:03:29,108 --> 02:03:37,108
We have a new thing. We have this new thing that's like a Steam launcher, and it's like – so I've neglected even to put up the standalone.

1766
02:03:38,108 --> 02:03:48,108
So basically the short answer, though, is if we actually activated BIP300 tomorrow, which is not necessarily possible because of the way software rebasing and whatever.

1767
02:03:48,108 --> 02:04:00,108
But just hypothetically, if that were magically the case, we could turn on the large block payment sidechain and Zcash sidechain and the EVM emulating sidechain tomorrow.

1768
02:04:01,108 --> 02:04:04,108
And so with the EVM sidechain, any –

1769
02:04:04,108 --> 02:04:06,108
It's a copy of Ethereum.

1770
02:04:06,108 --> 02:04:16,108
It's a perfect copy of Ethereum, and using Bitcoin as the – to replace gas fees, you're paying Bitcoin.

1771
02:04:16,108 --> 02:04:21,108
Yeah, because basically instead of Gway or whatever, there's just –

1772
02:04:21,108 --> 02:04:22,108
Right, right.

1773
02:04:22,108 --> 02:04:29,108
And so – and also there's no proof of stake, of course. There's merge mining instead of – but other than that, it's exactly the same.

1774
02:04:29,108 --> 02:04:33,108
Yeah, well, you're not going to get a lot of Ethereum people supporting this.

1775
02:04:33,108 --> 02:04:40,108
Well, I kind of think some of them are the whatever, the anon FUD people.

1776
02:04:40,108 --> 02:04:41,108
Right.

1777
02:04:41,108 --> 02:04:47,108
I think some of them actually are Bitcoiners, and they just use Ethereum because it has a use case that Bitcoin doesn't have.

1778
02:04:47,108 --> 02:04:48,108
Right.

1779
02:04:48,108 --> 02:04:50,108
And they would love to be able to do it on Bitcoin, like for example me.

1780
02:04:51,108 --> 02:04:56,108
Yeah, when I say you're not going to get their support, I happen to be both, but I don't take a side.

1781
02:04:56,108 --> 02:04:59,108
I think it's like putting your head in the sand to take a side.

1782
02:04:59,108 --> 02:05:05,108
I continue to explore the negatives on both so that I can make a good long-term commitment.

1783
02:05:05,108 --> 02:05:08,108
So if I ignore it, it's still going to happen.

1784
02:05:08,108 --> 02:05:12,108
So whatever happens, it's still going to happen regardless of what I say or do.

1785
02:05:12,108 --> 02:05:17,108
So I just look at both sides, and that's why I'm asking these questions.

1786
02:05:17,108 --> 02:05:20,108
And I'm glad to hear all this.

1787
02:05:20,108 --> 02:05:29,108
I hope this starts to get more traction because, frankly, I've been rather concerned about Bitcoin being useful and Bitcoin having a security budget.

1788
02:05:29,108 --> 02:05:32,108
And this addresses both of those things.

1789
02:05:32,108 --> 02:05:35,108
So it's good.

1790
02:05:35,108 --> 02:05:39,108
Yeah, unfortunately, people have staked out various narratives, I think.

1791
02:05:39,108 --> 02:05:44,108
I mean it's hard to say, but some people have staked out narratives like Bitcoin doesn't need to be useful.

1792
02:05:44,108 --> 02:05:46,108
It's already going to win.

1793
02:05:46,108 --> 02:05:52,108
And now when we say, well, we can make it useful, it's kind of like a weird dissonance, some kind of weird.

1794
02:05:52,108 --> 02:05:58,108
Well, that may be true, but it's not useful for transactions.

1795
02:05:58,108 --> 02:06:02,108
It's obviously not winning as money in my opinion.

1796
02:06:02,108 --> 02:06:07,108
Well, how you define money, but as currency is for day-to-day transactions.

1797
02:06:07,108 --> 02:06:10,108
I don't see that. It's not winning that.

1798
02:06:10,108 --> 02:06:15,108
So store value maybe. I think I got cut off.

1799
02:06:15,108 --> 02:06:21,108
No, you're still here, but I was just thinking I have to go soon, so maybe we can go to John 13%.

1800
02:06:21,108 --> 02:06:23,108
That's it. What's that?

1801
02:06:23,108 --> 02:06:26,108
Everyone can hang out without me just because I have to leave, of course.

1802
02:06:26,108 --> 02:06:27,108
That's okay.

1803
02:06:27,108 --> 02:06:30,108
John 13% is up here. Okay, cool. Great. Thanks.

1804
02:06:30,108 --> 02:06:31,108
Thanks for your time.

1805
02:06:31,108 --> 02:06:32,108
Okay.

1806
02:06:34,108 --> 02:06:37,108
Hi, what's up, Paul? What's up, everybody?

1807
02:06:37,108 --> 02:06:44,108
So I have a question to know if I'm true on this statement or not.

1808
02:06:44,108 --> 02:06:57,108
I put down there in the comments that the thing is that UTXO on Bitcoin blockchain is going up absurdly.

1809
02:06:57,108 --> 02:07:00,108
I put there level half.

1810
02:07:01,108 --> 02:07:08,108
He says that it's going up to 4.5 gigabytes.

1811
02:07:08,108 --> 02:07:17,108
And in the past 10 years, it was only 1.68 gigabytes.

1812
02:07:17,108 --> 02:07:25,108
And this compromised the nodes because we need small size nodes.

1813
02:07:25,108 --> 02:07:38,108
And I want to know if drivechains actually solve this problem of making UTXOs not bloat.

1814
02:07:38,108 --> 02:07:50,108
Because I think the problem is the originals that's making this UTXOs going so bigger in size.

1815
02:07:50,108 --> 02:07:54,108
It's not easy for me to understand what you're asking about there.

1816
02:07:54,108 --> 02:08:00,108
I think I understand. He's saying the UTXO set is growing a lot because of these BRC20 and inscriptions.

1817
02:08:00,108 --> 02:08:04,108
They're doing a lot of dust 330 SAT outputs.

1818
02:08:04,108 --> 02:08:09,108
And I would say the drivechain does help solve this because you can actually reduce the block size then.

1819
02:08:09,108 --> 02:08:13,108
And you would have less UTXO creation.

1820
02:08:13,108 --> 02:08:15,108
Yes, small rate of growth. Exactly. Yes.

1821
02:08:15,108 --> 02:08:20,108
And we would move this activity to its own chain, which would be better for everyone.

1822
02:08:20,108 --> 02:08:23,108
Because they get their own chain that they like.

1823
02:08:23,108 --> 02:08:29,108
They can specialize it for having images and inscriptions and trading.

1824
02:08:29,108 --> 02:08:31,108
They can have their own stuff over there.

1825
02:08:31,108 --> 02:08:36,108
And then on L1, it can only be for settlement among these many chains.

1826
02:08:36,108 --> 02:08:41,108
It gets the graffiti out of there.

1827
02:08:42,108 --> 02:08:48,108
Well, I think the only thing that would really disincentivize them is actual cost.

1828
02:08:48,108 --> 02:08:52,108
So most likely you would just price them out with smaller blocks.

1829
02:08:52,108 --> 02:08:57,108
So I definitely think drivechains can help this because you can then reduce the block size,

1830
02:08:57,108 --> 02:09:03,108
which would hopefully then increase the cost to be able to do this.

1831
02:09:03,108 --> 02:09:07,108
And less people would do it.

1832
02:09:08,108 --> 02:09:15,108
Oh, nice. That was the doubt that I had if I was right on this statement.

1833
02:09:15,108 --> 02:09:18,108
So, yeah, thanks. That's it.

1834
02:09:23,108 --> 02:09:31,108
OK, Guy, I think I have to leave, but feel free to continue to hang out if you wish.

1835
02:09:31,108 --> 02:09:35,108
OK, take care, Paul. Have a good weekend. I'll hang out for a little bit.

1836
02:09:35,108 --> 02:09:42,108
Cool. Great. OK, thanks, everyone, for a great time. See you guys next time.

1837
02:09:47,108 --> 02:09:53,108
Anybody else that wants to come up and ask questions on drivechains or talk about drivechains,

1838
02:09:53,108 --> 02:09:56,108
even like basic questions are welcome.

1839
02:09:56,108 --> 02:10:02,108
Anybody can come up and ask about anything, any doubts that they have, any concerns that they have or,

1840
02:10:02,108 --> 02:10:08,108
you know, anything they want to talk about, about drivechains are welcome.

1841
02:10:08,108 --> 02:10:12,108
Yeah, thanks for bringing me up.

1842
02:10:12,108 --> 02:10:17,108
My question is around and I don't know, yeah, maybe if this question's already been asked,

1843
02:10:17,108 --> 02:10:22,108
but from a total outsider, noob perspective,

1844
02:10:22,108 --> 02:10:29,108
what how would you compare and contrast the drivechains versus RGB?

1845
02:10:29,108 --> 02:10:34,108
Oh, good question. So I'm not an expert on everything, but I can try to explain how I understand.

1846
02:10:34,108 --> 02:10:38,108
RGB is basically client side validation.

1847
02:10:38,108 --> 02:10:46,108
So what that means is I think that the limit there would be that Bitcoin can't really be traded on that side

1848
02:10:46,108 --> 02:10:52,108
because like it's basically it's locked in the UTXO.

1849
02:10:52,108 --> 02:10:58,108
So then if that UTXO gets unlocked, then how can you trade it on that other layer?

1850
02:10:58,108 --> 02:11:03,108
So I'm not sure if that can really help with this specific use case.

1851
02:11:03,108 --> 02:11:09,108
With drivechains would allow basically any any other chain or any type of protocol design

1852
02:11:09,108 --> 02:11:13,108
for Bitcoin, the asset to be used in that protocol design.

1853
02:11:13,108 --> 02:11:19,108
The way drivechains works is you can think of it as you're locking up Bitcoin on the base layer

1854
02:11:19,108 --> 02:11:23,108
and you would get issued those Bitcoin on another layer, on a different chain.

1855
02:11:23,108 --> 02:11:30,108
And that different chain can be literally anything you want, like Ethereum or any other basically design that's now or in the future.

1856
02:11:30,108 --> 02:11:39,108
And then to bring it back, you would need the miners to accept this withdrawal back to the base layer.

1857
02:11:39,108 --> 02:11:43,108
Over three months, three to six months, they would need to approve this.

1858
02:11:43,108 --> 02:11:48,108
And economically, they would want to approve this because they're generating fees on that sidechain.

1859
02:11:48,108 --> 02:11:55,108
So they would definitely be in the benefit to keep this sidechain alive because they're generating fees from it.

1860
02:11:55,108 --> 02:11:58,108
I think that's like a basic way to understand it.

1861
02:11:58,108 --> 02:12:04,108
But I'm not an expert on RGB, so maybe other people know a little bit better about RGB and can compare that with drivechains.

1862
02:12:09,108 --> 02:12:12,108
Yeah, I can't speak to it.

1863
02:12:12,108 --> 02:12:29,108
I've just been thinking about it from the perspective of, yeah, the thought process is if you can increase the demand for usefulness of Bitcoin,

1864
02:12:29,108 --> 02:12:34,108
then the more money may may accrue.

1865
02:12:34,108 --> 02:12:43,108
But I guess the key question is whether or not from a security budget perspective, it's a question of whether that that increased activity ends up with miners or not.

1866
02:12:43,108 --> 02:12:58,108
Right. And what you're saying is in the RGB solution or use case, you don't know if that those dollars or those Satoshis end up accruing to the miners.

1867
02:12:58,108 --> 02:13:08,108
I could be wrong, but I think that RGB, you're able to create these new assets and trade them within the RGB network with the scheme that it uses.

1868
02:13:08,108 --> 02:13:17,108
But I'm not sure if you can actually trade the Bitcoins within that network because of like you can't like what happens if you just unlock the Bitcoin on the base layer then?

1869
02:13:17,108 --> 02:13:20,108
Because it doesn't require any kind of software changes.

1870
02:13:21,108 --> 02:13:30,108
So if that if that Bitcoin is unlocked in a base layer, then how are you going to be trading it on the other, you know, on the other chain or the other layer of the client side validation?

1871
02:13:30,108 --> 02:13:35,108
I could be wrong. I might just not fully understand how that part works.

1872
02:13:35,108 --> 02:13:45,108
But as far as the fees, the fees with drivechains, the way it works is the miners would be there would be blind merge mining.

1873
02:13:45,108 --> 02:13:54,108
So they will be mining as well like the hash of a block of the sidechain of the drivechain.

1874
02:13:54,108 --> 02:13:59,108
They're going to include it. And by including it, they're going to be they're going to be getting paid a fee.

1875
02:13:59,108 --> 02:14:04,108
So like on the on the drivechain, if the fee for a block is a thousand dollars.

1876
02:14:04,108 --> 02:14:13,108
Right. Somebody will say to a miner on the base layer, hey, include the hash of this block and I will give you nine hundred and ninety five dollars and I'll keep five dollars of it.

1877
02:14:13,108 --> 02:14:16,108
And somebody else will say, well, I'll give you nine hundred and ninety six dollars.

1878
02:14:16,108 --> 02:14:25,108
Right. And eventually the equilibrium will be very, very close to whatever the fees are on that drivechain on the on the on the sidechain.

1879
02:14:25,108 --> 02:14:36,108
They're going to go to the base layer miner. So most likely all if not if not most, but most likely all of the fees of the drivechain would be going directly to the miners.

1880
02:14:36,108 --> 02:14:49,108
But by but because it's in sort of a reverse auction fashion, it's what you can think of it of it's just it's like a transaction on the base layer.

1881
02:14:49,108 --> 02:14:58,108
Right. Yep. So, yeah, you can just think of it like that. As far as the base layer miners, they're just they just see a transaction and whoever's paying the most.

1882
02:14:58,108 --> 02:15:02,108
That's the one that they're going to include. And as long as it's it's valid.

1883
02:15:02,108 --> 02:15:16,108
Right. Because if they include an invalid or a transaction, then either it will be just completely ignored because it's not going to be like going forward that sidechain because it's not anything to do with outside chain.

1884
02:15:16,108 --> 02:15:30,108
So then that person that paid the miner just like loses. So there's no point of that. So the only way that the sidechain has validity, from what I understand, is actually anchoring its hashes of its blocks to the base layer.

1885
02:15:30,108 --> 02:15:35,108
So you're just incentivized to actually give the proper blocks.

1886
02:15:35,108 --> 02:15:41,108
Got it. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for the thanks for the insight.

1887
02:15:41,108 --> 02:15:56,108
Sure. Yeah, I got kind of a hard question. If I have one Bitcoin and drivechain gets activated tomorrow, how many Lamborghinis would I have next week?

1888
02:15:56,108 --> 02:16:12,108
None. Well, I think that's an interesting question because it goes to like if these drivechains that are like other chains, would they actually eventually get market cap over those other chains?

1889
02:16:12,108 --> 02:16:28,108
So if you think of like, let's say Ethereum, if you create an Ethereum drivechain, like what is the incentive of people using this Ethereum drivechain? They can just continue to use Ethereum where it has network effect and it has already liquidity and, you know, it already has built up liquidity and built up network effect.

1890
02:16:28,108 --> 02:16:37,108
So why would they just move over to Bitcoin? Well, I think at least some people might move over to Bitcoin, at least some some amount of activity will start to bootstrap on Bitcoin.

1891
02:16:37,108 --> 02:16:45,108
And then eventually the activity on Bitcoin will continue to grow just because activity continues to grow on all chains if there's demand for it. Right.

1892
02:16:45,108 --> 02:16:55,108
And then eventually I think it will become where there's a certain point where a person will think, well, I can do the exact same thing on Bitcoin and maybe I'll have a little bit less liquidity.

1893
02:16:55,108 --> 02:17:02,108
But I could do pretty much the same thing or I can do it on Ethereum. And then they're going to look at either do it on Bitcoin or Ethereum. What's the difference then?

1894
02:17:02,108 --> 02:17:15,108
Once once the activity is enough and there's enough TVL and there's enough liquidity on the Bitcoin drivechain of Ethereum, then the only thing differentiating them then would just be the actual monetary policy of Bitcoin versus Ethereum.

1895
02:17:15,108 --> 02:17:22,108
And then they would most likely be like, well, Bitcoin's monetary policy is more more sound and more stable and more predicted.

1896
02:17:22,108 --> 02:17:33,108
So they would most likely choose the Bitcoin side. And then eventually the Bitcoin side drivechain would like overtake the market cap of the Ethereum.

1897
02:17:33,108 --> 02:17:47,108
That's kind of how I look at it. I think that that that that would that would eventually. I think that other people might look at it a similar way where eventually other chains would just not really need to exist because you can if once you could do it.

1898
02:17:47,108 --> 02:17:53,108
Once you could do it on Bitcoin and Bitcoin's growth continues to grow, then the only difference will will just be the monetary policy.

1899
02:17:53,108 --> 02:18:03,108
And everybody pretty much says that the monetary policy of Bitcoin is more, you know, predicted than any other chains. And, you know, so that that would be a no brainer to just use Bitcoin then.

1900
02:18:06,108 --> 02:18:07,108
Thank you.

1901
02:18:07,108 --> 02:18:29,108
So let me ask another question. To make a copy of Ethereum, for something to go to the drivechain, you have to peg Satoshis or Bitcoins to the drivechain.

1902
02:18:30,108 --> 02:18:39,108
But Ethereum make tokens out of nothing. So how would that play, for example, because.

1903
02:18:40,108 --> 02:18:50,108
So I think this this this like several questions is a good question. So, first of all, the idea of tokenization has been around for a very long time, even like 2013, 2014.

1904
02:18:51,108 --> 02:18:59,108
It was just a million different clones of Bitcoin. They changed a few parameters. They named they changed the name. But most of them didn't last. Maybe Litecoin lasted.

1905
02:19:00,108 --> 02:19:09,108
But most of them did not last. And then in 2017, the idea of tokenization and creating new assets has made a new like, you know, a new rise.

1906
02:19:09,108 --> 02:19:17,108
And people were very interested in it because people like to speculate. And then in 2021, even more so like meme coins like Shiba Inu and all this.

1907
02:19:17,108 --> 02:19:24,108
So people, for some reason, like to speculate on token creation. You can also think of token creation as just shares of a company.

1908
02:19:24,108 --> 02:19:31,108
You know, like anybody can make their own company and issue shares for it. Right. It might be bad and they might be lying.

1909
02:19:31,108 --> 02:19:35,108
They might be scamming. Most likely, 99 percent of them are just taking the money and leaving.

1910
02:19:35,108 --> 02:19:40,108
But that idea isn't necessarily bad because a person can create a company and create shares for it.

1911
02:19:40,108 --> 02:19:46,108
Just like on, you know, on the stock market, there's there's many, many, many companies, many, many different assets.

1912
02:19:46,108 --> 02:19:50,108
And a lot of them just don't do good because the company just fails. You know, like that happens.

1913
02:19:51,108 --> 02:19:58,108
So if you create an Ethereum style, you know, drivechain, sure, you can you can create any assets on that chain.

1914
02:19:58,108 --> 02:20:02,108
And that can be, you know, it's just that that can definitely happen.

1915
02:20:02,108 --> 02:20:06,108
But you can think of the other question that I have is what about these?

1916
02:20:06,108 --> 02:20:11,108
Somebody creates a drivechain where they will incentivize a new token on that drivechain.

1917
02:20:11,552 --> 02:20:31,872
Well, then you would you would the way I would understand it is most likely it's not going to benefit the miners because the miners are only going to really benefit if the base currency of the drivechain is Bitcoin, because if the base currency of the drivechain is Bitcoin, then they're receiving rewards in Bitcoin as there's transaction fees in that base currency.

1918
02:20:31,872 --> 02:20:48,752
So if you create a drivechain with a new token and you incentivize the block creation of that sidechain with a new token, I don't think miners would just be incentivized to keep that chain around, you know, like, why would they even do that if you could just copy it and make it with Bitcoin instead?

1919
02:20:48,752 --> 02:20:50,831
It would be way more profitable for them.

1920
02:20:51,712 --> 02:20:56,592
So I hope that answers your question and answers another question that I had that is similar.

1921
02:20:56,592 --> 02:21:02,351
Oh, aside from you can already make tokens, right?

1922
02:21:02,351 --> 02:21:12,272
Like on Bitcoin, you can make BRC 20s and like colored coins, like all this, like the Omni network and how Tether started, like the idea of token creation has been around forever.

1923
02:21:12,272 --> 02:21:18,272
I don't think drivechains necessarily like breaks that model or like incentivizes that model.

1924
02:21:18,272 --> 02:21:21,552
It's just that that has always been around and for some reason people really like it.

1925
02:21:22,431 --> 02:21:26,992
But at least the fees of the activity of that can go to the miners.

1926
02:21:27,471 --> 02:21:30,511
And also, Bitcoin can be the base layer asset for all that.

1927
02:21:30,712 --> 02:21:38,071
There used to be a time when if you wanted any kind of altcoin, you had to first buy Bitcoin and then you would go on an exchange and then buy whatever other coin you wanted.

1928
02:21:38,791 --> 02:21:41,912
But you needed Bitcoin and all these other coins they traded in Bitcoin.

1929
02:21:42,071 --> 02:21:46,151
So Bitcoin was the denominated asset for all of these other coins.

1930
02:21:46,872 --> 02:21:50,431
Nowadays, most of the coins can be bought on Ethereum with Ethereum the asset.

1931
02:21:50,431 --> 02:21:52,312
And most people don't even need it for Bitcoin.

1932
02:21:52,312 --> 02:21:57,511
They could just buy Ethereum and go on this chain and then use Uniswap or whatever and buy whatever token that they want.

1933
02:21:57,952 --> 02:22:08,071
All of this activity would be way better if it's done with Bitcoin the asset, because eventually people move like they might buy Shiba Inu or whatever asset on Ethereum.

1934
02:22:08,111 --> 02:22:15,552
But eventually they'll start learning about Ethereum and they'll realize that Ethereum is a little bit better for them than the high risk of whatever, you know, meme coin that they want.

1935
02:22:16,111 --> 02:22:24,152
So but this activity would be better on Bitcoin because, you know, somebody might buy, you know, like a meme coin that is nominated in Bitcoin.

1936
02:22:24,152 --> 02:22:28,191
But eventually they will realize that Bitcoin is really the new innovation here.

1937
02:22:28,432 --> 02:22:29,671
And that's just the speculation.

1938
02:22:30,072 --> 02:22:37,231
So the idea of all of that activity being done on Bitcoin with Bitcoin and paid to the Bitcoin miners is a benefit.

1939
02:22:37,831 --> 02:22:42,231
But you can't really stop that activity, that that activity can already be done on Bitcoin and it is already done every day.

1940
02:22:42,471 --> 02:22:46,471
I think the mempool is pretty much full because of these BRC20s right now.

1941
02:22:53,231 --> 02:22:54,591
Yeah, nice, thanks.

1942
02:22:55,031 --> 02:22:57,912
That's another doubt that I had.

1943
02:22:58,231 --> 02:23:11,992
Another doubt that I had and not myself that I have, but people used to like to say that it will bring regulatory oversight from the CAC and a lot of stuff.

1944
02:23:12,552 --> 02:23:19,352
But just like you said, there are ways to make new tokens on Bitcoin already.

1945
02:23:19,391 --> 02:23:26,031
So if they were to call Bitcoin a security or something, they could do this right now, right?

1946
02:23:26,072 --> 02:23:27,591
Because of this new token.

1947
02:23:27,591 --> 02:23:29,152
Yeah, but it's also right.

1948
02:23:29,152 --> 02:23:32,552
That's that's correct. But it's also important to know that the coins wouldn't actually be on Bitcoin.

1949
02:23:32,552 --> 02:23:34,272
They would just be on a sidechain of Bitcoin.

1950
02:23:34,751 --> 02:23:38,671
You can think of it like, for example, Ethereum has WBTC, right?

1951
02:23:39,512 --> 02:23:45,031
Like wrapped Bitcoin. And the idea that you can create assets on Ethereum, it's a different chain, right?

1952
02:23:45,031 --> 02:23:48,831
Or Liquid. On Liquid network, you can create assets, right?

1953
02:23:49,111 --> 02:23:50,432
That's not really to do with Bitcoin.

1954
02:23:50,432 --> 02:23:55,912
It's a different chain. BRC20s are actually assets being created on the Bitcoin chain in a way, right?

1955
02:23:55,951 --> 02:24:03,512
They're really not on chain, but they have some kind of connection with just the base layer of Bitcoin and no other chain.

1956
02:24:04,671 --> 02:24:07,831
So drivechains would enable that to be not really on the base layer.

1957
02:24:07,831 --> 02:24:12,831
It would actually be on a different chain, kind of like it's on Ethereum or kind of like it's on Liquid or tarot assets.

1958
02:24:12,912 --> 02:24:17,951
How, you know, taproot assets are wanting to create assets on Lightning.

1959
02:24:18,432 --> 02:24:22,671
So it would be similar where it's a different, it's not really on the base layer, you know, something like that.

1960
02:24:22,912 --> 02:24:25,391
But yeah, all this stuff can already be done and is being done anyways.

1961
02:24:26,191 --> 02:24:32,472
I also wanted to say that I'm not, I'm not, anything I say is not really connected with LayerTwo Labs or drivechains directly.

1962
02:24:33,032 --> 02:24:38,111
So if I say things incorrect or things that I don't know, you know, don't hold them responsible for that.

1963
02:24:38,472 --> 02:24:43,472
It's just I'm just sharing my thoughts and hopefully they are aligned or at least they're correct and helpful to others.

1964
02:24:43,472 --> 02:24:47,472
So you're not sure if what you're saying is accurate.

1965
02:24:47,472 --> 02:24:49,472
Is that what you're saying?

1966
02:24:49,472 --> 02:24:51,472
He's been very accurate so far.

1967
02:24:51,472 --> 02:24:54,472
I'm doing my best to be as accurate as possible, but you know, I am human and I know that.

1968
02:24:54,472 --> 02:24:58,472
Well, cause I think you've been really on, I think you've been pretty accurate so far.

1969
02:24:59,472 --> 02:25:04,472
Well, thank you. I just, you know, I know that I make mistakes and I know that I learn and I know that there's things that I say incorrect.

1970
02:25:04,472 --> 02:25:06,472
And the next day I realized that, hey, I was wrong.

1971
02:25:06,472 --> 02:25:08,472
So, you know, I just, just a preamble.

1972
02:25:08,472 --> 02:25:10,472
But, um, thank you.

1973
02:25:10,472 --> 02:25:12,472
So guys, thank you.

1974
02:25:12,472 --> 02:25:14,472
I'm going to.

1975
02:25:14,472 --> 02:25:16,472
So thank you for everything.

1976
02:25:16,472 --> 02:25:18,472
Have a nice weekend.

1977
02:25:18,472 --> 02:25:20,472
Bye bye.

1978
02:25:20,472 --> 02:25:22,472
Thanks.

1979
02:25:22,472 --> 02:25:24,472
Thanks for your questions.

1980
02:25:24,472 --> 02:25:26,472
And thanks for hanging out with us.

1981
02:25:26,472 --> 02:25:28,472
Have a good weekend.

1982
02:25:28,472 --> 02:25:30,472
Anybody else feel free to come up and ask questions.

1983
02:25:30,472 --> 02:25:32,472
Um, I also don't want to hog the, you know, the speaker too much.

1984
02:25:32,472 --> 02:25:34,472
Let other people talk as well and ask questions.

1985
02:25:34,472 --> 02:25:36,472
There's knowledgeable people here that can answer.

1986
02:25:37,152 --> 02:25:39,492
Thanks for your questions and thanks for hanging out with us.

1987
02:25:39,712 --> 02:25:40,272
Have a good weekend.

1988
02:25:41,012 --> 02:25:43,332
Anybody else feel free to come up and ask questions.

1989
02:25:44,112 --> 02:25:45,092
I also don't want to hug the

1990
02:25:46,672 --> 02:25:47,632
speaker too much.

1991
02:25:47,672 --> 02:25:48,472
Let other people talk as

1992
02:25:48,492 --> 02:25:49,352
well and ask questions.

1993
02:25:49,572 --> 02:25:51,292
There's knowledgeable people here that can answer.

1994
02:26:25,632 --> 02:26:31,532
All right, well, maybe I'll share some thoughts that while there's no other people that

1995
02:26:31,532 --> 02:26:36,132
want to come up and talk, I'll just say that I really enjoy the Drivechain talk because

1996
02:26:36,132 --> 02:26:38,321
I like it adds to

1997
02:26:38,381 --> 02:26:40,901
of Bitcoin and education of the ecosystem.

1998
02:26:42,321 --> 02:26:44,841
I've definitely seen a lot of people learning and I've learned a lot.

1999
02:26:45,721 --> 02:26:50,361
So I definitely enjoy people just the discussions because of Drivechain.

2000
02:26:50,541 --> 02:26:54,261
Drivechain has opened the door to a lot of discussions, a lot of people talking about

2001
02:26:54,921 --> 02:26:57,021
Bitcoin and understanding a little bit more about Bitcoin, hopefully.

2002
02:26:58,409 --> 02:27:00,389
So yeah, I really enjoy these things.

2003
02:27:01,549 --> 02:27:04,329
think that Drivechain is a great idea.

2004
02:27:05,149 --> 02:27:06,789
I'm not the most technical person.

2005
02:27:06,909 --> 02:27:11,229
Maybe other people that are extremely more technical, might have other ideas about

2006
02:27:11,229 --> 02:27:12,909
that. I personally think it's a good idea.

2007
02:27:13,049 --> 02:27:15,589
think that there's little downside.

2008
02:27:15,729 --> 02:27:17,229
It seems like to me so far.

2009
02:27:18,218 --> 02:27:21,458
And I think that the upside is just so tremendous, at least to me, it seems like the

2010
02:27:21,458 --> 02:27:25,398
upside is so tremendous that it's worth learning about and it's worth talking about.

2011
02:27:26,018 --> 02:27:30,038
And, you know, it's just it's just worth, you know, spending time on, at least for me,

2012
02:27:30,298 --> 02:27:34,738
because I just like that people can use Bitcoin for other purposes.

2013
02:27:35,098 --> 02:27:36,258
And I think that everybody is unique.

2014
02:27:36,798 --> 02:27:37,866
because everybody's unique,

2015
02:27:37,986 --> 02:27:39,226
everybody will have their own purpose.

2016
02:27:39,746 --> 02:27:41,426
And they'll have their own use case.

2017
02:27:41,866 --> 02:27:44,506
And I think that you can't just fit that all in one place.

2018
02:27:44,826 --> 02:27:47,066
People should be allowed to use it however they want.

2019
02:27:47,366 --> 02:27:51,486
I think Drivechains enables people to use Bitcoin however they want to use it.

2020
02:27:56,946 --> 02:27:57,715
It's going to

2021
02:27:57,755 --> 02:27:59,375
be more of a

2022
02:27:59,375 --> 02:28:05,135
nature than that I think.

2023
02:28:05,315 --> 02:28:08,995
may not be whether you have a choice or not.

2024
02:28:10,495 --> 02:28:15,335
If Bitcoin is replacing the native token on your blockchain,

2025
02:28:16,855 --> 02:28:17,563
then what

2026
02:28:17,723 --> 02:28:21,803
choice you really have but to build on Bitcoin and build with it.

2027
02:28:22,823 --> 02:28:27,243
Right what I mean by what I mean by choice is more of like currently right now you're

2028
02:28:27,243 --> 02:28:30,383
limited to what you can do with Bitcoin so if I wanted to do something like smart

2029
02:28:30,383 --> 02:28:34,603
contracts like an EVM style smart contracts I can't really do it with Bitcoin maybe I

2030
02:28:34,603 --> 02:28:37,123
can do it with wrapped Bitcoin on Ethereum you know but

2031
02:28:37,412 --> 02:28:40,092
there's still limit limits to what I can do with Bitcoin because of that.

2032
02:28:40,772 --> 02:28:42,752
You know, maybe I wanted to do things like Monero.

2033
02:28:43,632 --> 02:28:45,192
I can't really do that with Bitcoin currently.

2034
02:28:45,412 --> 02:28:49,552
So that's what I meant by people be able to use Bitcoin in other ways that they want.

2035
02:28:52,572 --> 02:28:55,192
But of course, you know, people can still use any other chain.

2036
02:28:56,192 --> 02:28:57,172
obviously,

2037
02:29:02,321 --> 02:29:03,881
Drivechain is

2038
02:29:03,881 --> 02:29:10,161
a

2039
02:29:10,161 --> 02:29:14,861
absorb and consume other blockchains while becoming the native token on these chains.

2040
02:29:16,001 --> 02:29:17,109
These other

2041
02:29:17,169 --> 02:29:19,849
chains will not be updated, they'll become antiquated.

2042
02:29:21,249 --> 02:29:23,469
They won't be developed on anymore,

2043
02:29:25,749 --> 02:29:28,529
etc. I mean, they're going to be useless.

2044
02:29:30,889 --> 02:29:35,789
That's a good question because you can think of that a lot of, right, you could first

2045
02:29:35,789 --> 02:29:36,769
say that like a lot

2046
02:29:36,958 --> 02:29:42,138
of, you know, the money on other chains is just, know, like just goes to VCs and you

2047
02:29:42,138 --> 02:29:45,898
know, just gets pocketed or like sold on retail and that's it, right, like 99 % of it,

2048
02:29:45,958 --> 02:29:46,838
you can make that case.

2049
02:29:47,018 --> 02:29:50,038
Okay. But you can also make the case that a lot of the, you know,

2050
02:29:51,258 --> 02:29:55,758
that goes into like the speculation that goes into these other assets actually gets

2051
02:29:55,758 --> 02:29:56,638
used towards

2052
02:29:56,806 --> 02:30:00,486
development. And then that development gets into creating, you know, protocols that

2053
02:30:00,486 --> 02:30:04,386
maybe most of them are not good, but at least one or two might have something

2054
02:30:04,386 --> 02:30:05,486
interesting that can be useful.

2055
02:30:05,866 --> 02:30:09,186
Right. So you can say, all right, well, that investment money, because there's a new

2056
02:30:09,186 --> 02:30:11,826
asset can actually be used for development.

2057
02:30:12,926 --> 02:30:16,655
can tell that in the drivechain world, all that investment,

2058
02:30:17,115 --> 02:30:22,075
all of that development will only be yielding results for Bitcoin.

2059
02:30:22,975 --> 02:30:27,595
Right, what I'm saying is you can still have raises for investment.

2060
02:30:28,835 --> 02:30:33,195
If you have an EVM style chain, something like that, you can still issue assets on it.

2061
02:30:33,535 --> 02:30:36,375
You can still issue assets on your

2062
02:30:36,503 --> 02:30:39,803
design that you want to create, you can still raise money and you can still use that

2063
02:30:39,803 --> 02:30:43,863
money towards development of making better Drivechains or whatever it is.

2064
02:30:44,003 --> 02:30:47,383
the way I saw that the question is it's a concern.

2065
02:30:48,123 --> 02:30:53,183
if all this money is, let's say most of it is being stolen, but least some of it is

2066
02:30:53,183 --> 02:30:56,103
being used good, will Drivechains eliminate

2067
02:30:56,352 --> 02:31:00,492
that actually, that sliver of the good being used for it, right?

2068
02:31:00,712 --> 02:31:06,072
So I think it wouldn't, because I think people can still issue assets and in through

2069
02:31:06,072 --> 02:31:07,732
enormous different kind of ways.

2070
02:31:07,732 --> 02:31:08,892
It doesn't have to be through drivechains.

2071
02:31:09,092 --> 02:31:10,992
And because they can issue assets, they can raise funds.

2072
02:31:11,292 --> 02:31:13,612
And because they can raise funds, they can use the funds towards development.

2073
02:31:14,032 --> 02:31:16,201
So I don't think drivechains itself would eliminate

2074
02:31:16,481 --> 02:31:20,261
innovation through raising funds for development.

2075
02:31:21,441 --> 02:31:25,361
On blockchains where Drivechains are

2076
02:31:25,361 --> 02:31:31,341
interoperable, excuse me, integrated with, and

2077
02:31:31,341 --> 02:31:36,049
where Bitcoin is now the native token on that blockchain, then any innovation

2078
02:31:36,269 --> 02:31:41,709
or any raising of funds for that blockchain would, well nobody would do that because

2079
02:31:41,709 --> 02:31:46,789
they would just be raising funds for Bitcoin and then you just move off that blockchain

2080
02:31:46,789 --> 02:31:48,069
and start building for Bitcoin.

2081
02:31:48,969 --> 02:31:51,269
So all these blockchains are going to disappear.

2082
02:31:53,029 --> 02:31:55,849
Right, so you want to say that there won't be an incentive to

2083
02:31:55,898 --> 02:31:56,938
raise money to innovate?

2084
02:31:57,618 --> 02:31:59,098
that basically what you're asking?

2085
02:32:00,318 --> 02:32:00,618
No.

2086
02:32:02,238 --> 02:32:07,078
I'm saying that with blockchains, with blockchains that

2087
02:32:07,078 --> 02:32:12,918
are now not using their own native token,

2088
02:32:13,798 --> 02:32:15,658
where Bitcoin is now the native token

2089
02:32:15,746 --> 02:32:18,746
on X blockchain or blockchain.

2090
02:32:19,686 --> 02:32:25,626
any innovation on that blockchain is not going to go towards their own native token.

2091
02:32:26,266 --> 02:32:32,026
any innovation that is invested in on that blockchain is not going

2092
02:32:32,026 --> 02:32:33,326
to benefit that native token.

2093
02:32:33,446 --> 02:32:35,226
will just benefit Bitcoin.

2094
02:32:35,595 --> 02:32:38,615
That's because there is no other native token, right?

2095
02:32:39,195 --> 02:32:41,035
can look at two ways, right?

2096
02:32:41,535 --> 02:32:45,635
That's right, DriveTrains you build on Bitcoin, for Bitcoin.

2097
02:32:46,735 --> 02:32:52,495
All these other blockchains are going to build for Bitcoin on Bitcoin

2098
02:32:52,495 --> 02:32:55,443
because they're going to see that, well, why would we continue

2099
02:32:55,503 --> 02:32:58,543
developing our blockchain when it's just going to Bitcoin?

2100
02:32:59,283 --> 02:33:01,583
It just doesn't make any it won't make any sense.

2101
02:33:01,983 --> 02:33:04,443
You can look at it two ways, right?

2102
02:33:04,763 --> 02:33:09,643
way you can look at it as well, anything that any other chain does, you can always just

2103
02:33:09,643 --> 02:33:10,543
make a drivechain of it.

2104
02:33:10,543 --> 02:33:13,883
If it's actually successful and useful and it has product market fit, there's demand

2105
02:33:13,883 --> 02:33:15,263
for it. Then you

2106
02:33:15,292 --> 02:33:16,792
could just make a copy of it and make a drivechain.

2107
02:33:17,172 --> 02:33:18,272
So that's one way to look at it.

2108
02:33:18,372 --> 02:33:21,792
But another way to look at it is, everybody will potentially be under the same

2109
02:33:21,792 --> 02:33:27,632
umbrella. In the early days, least from my experience, Bitcoin talk forums had an

2110
02:33:27,632 --> 02:33:29,852
altcoin forum. There was a whole section.

2111
02:33:30,292 --> 02:33:32,952
To this day, there still is a section for altcoins.

2112
02:33:33,712 --> 02:33:35,012
Altcoins was always

2113
02:33:35,141 --> 02:33:38,641
part of the discussion in Bitcoin from what I remember in the early days.

2114
02:33:39,381 --> 02:33:44,341
the idea was that experiment, try it out, try it out on a new coin.

2115
02:33:44,741 --> 02:33:47,601
And if it's useful, then we're to add it to Bitcoin eventually anyways.

2116
02:33:48,001 --> 02:33:50,761
So you might as well go and try it, learn about it, experiment with it.

2117
02:33:51,081 --> 02:33:54,861
always from my experience, it was always open to learning about it

2118
02:33:54,989 --> 02:33:56,309
and experimenting on it.

2119
02:33:56,429 --> 02:33:58,949
was like encouraged actually, from my experience.

2120
02:33:58,989 --> 02:34:02,209
It was encouraged to learn about other protocols and to even try them.

2121
02:34:02,369 --> 02:34:04,509
Because if they were good, we would add them to Bitcoin.

2122
02:34:05,109 --> 02:34:08,609
But here you can see that everybody would be under the same umbrella.

2123
02:34:08,689 --> 02:34:13,189
There would be no reason to ostracize somebody and tell them, go and build a separate

2124
02:34:13,189 --> 02:34:14,769
like chain and create your own

2125
02:34:14,838 --> 02:34:17,218
asset and just do something else like get away from Bitcoin.

2126
02:34:17,938 --> 02:34:19,418
You would have no reason for that.

2127
02:34:19,498 --> 02:34:21,158
would tell them no, come and do it on Bitcoin.

2128
02:34:21,618 --> 02:34:25,898
Come and build on Bitcoin and they would benefit because everybody benefits together.

2129
02:34:25,998 --> 02:34:29,378
If everybody's under the same umbrella working together, it's way more powerful.

2130
02:34:29,958 --> 02:34:33,858
Instead of people being divisive and like, you know, everybody creating their own

2131
02:34:33,858 --> 02:34:34,686
assets and building

2132
02:34:34,686 --> 02:34:37,506
their own things and competing with each other for money.

2133
02:34:38,146 --> 02:34:43,886
It would be a much better thing if everybody like wants one money and just continues to

2134
02:34:43,886 --> 02:34:46,446
build to make this one money have better use cases.

2135
02:34:47,106 --> 02:34:47,646
So two things.

2136
02:34:47,666 --> 02:34:49,866
One is you can just copy anybody and create a drivetrain.

2137
02:34:50,166 --> 02:34:53,206
The second thing is there will be no incentive to go and build something separate.

2138
02:34:53,366 --> 02:34:54,406
You might as well just do it with Bitcoin

2139
02:34:54,535 --> 02:34:57,115
anyways and be part of the same umbrella as everybody else.

2140
02:34:57,715 --> 02:34:59,075
You might even have more eyes.

2141
02:34:59,375 --> 02:35:03,215
might even have more people that are open to look at it, more people that are open to

2142
02:35:03,215 --> 02:35:06,695
reviewing it, more people that are open to helping you build it, right?

2143
02:35:06,815 --> 02:35:09,275
Because you're building it together as part of their ecosystem anyways.

2144
02:35:09,895 --> 02:35:12,015
So it might even be like a more powerful effect.

2145
02:35:12,455 --> 02:35:14,383
If you go and build a new asset and

2146
02:35:14,383 --> 02:35:32,443
think

2147
02:35:32,443 --> 02:35:34,143
that's

2148
02:35:34,232 --> 02:35:35,032
much what I'm saying.

2149
02:35:36,292 --> 02:35:38,652
yeah, I think that that will be what occurs.

2150
02:35:41,292 --> 02:35:46,372
Because you're gonna have all these funding rounds of Layer2s and

2151
02:35:46,372 --> 02:35:50,632
it's like, you're doing is benefiting Bitcoin.

2152
02:35:50,832 --> 02:35:53,532
You're not really building a blockchain independent of it,

2153
02:35:54,280 --> 02:35:57,460
one, protocols won't function as they used to.

2154
02:35:58,200 --> 02:35:59,540
secondly,

2155
02:36:01,840 --> 02:36:03,160
your native token is Bitcoin.

2156
02:36:04,540 --> 02:36:10,340
So I mean, I don't know how it's going to intersect with proof of stake, but all

2157
02:36:10,340 --> 02:36:13,929
these proof of stake protocols and whatever protocols are surrounding

2158
02:36:14,029 --> 02:36:19,429
proof of stake, well they're just all going to be useless and these blockchains won't

2159
02:36:19,429 --> 02:36:22,209
be utilized the way they were intended.

2160
02:36:22,869 --> 02:36:28,789
Perhaps if they change, I don't know how they would change necessarily to benefit

2161
02:36:28,789 --> 02:36:31,909
the old native token.

2162
02:36:33,069 --> 02:36:33,769
And people

2163
02:36:33,778 --> 02:36:38,338
can still use them, I suppose, but if Bitcoin is a native token on that blockchain,

2164
02:36:38,618 --> 02:36:43,738
can't use it to benefit anything else, anything other than Bitcoin or whatever you're

2165
02:36:43,738 --> 02:36:44,558
building on Bitcoin.

2166
02:36:44,578 --> 02:36:49,798
I think one thing it might do for sure is at least clean up the space a tiny bit,

2167
02:36:49,898 --> 02:36:53,538
because the biggest selling point to like, you know, whatever point it is,

2168
02:36:53,966 --> 02:36:56,466
oh, it's like Bitcoin, but it can do XYZ.

2169
02:36:57,286 --> 02:37:02,566
then by having that pitch, it's like Bitcoin, but it can do XYZ, they're able to create

2170
02:37:02,566 --> 02:37:03,126
a new asset.

2171
02:37:03,646 --> 02:37:07,066
And now with that new asset, whatever they do, either dump it on retail or maybe they

2172
02:37:07,066 --> 02:37:08,806
actually want to do something good with it, doesn't matter.

2173
02:37:09,126 --> 02:37:13,026
But they're able to create that new asset with this pitch, with this marketing.

2174
02:37:13,815 --> 02:37:18,655
I think that that marketing will be eliminated because you can't say well it's like

2175
02:37:18,655 --> 02:37:22,815
Bitcoin but it can do XYZ because you can do it on Bitcoin now right so it would at

2176
02:37:22,815 --> 02:37:27,715
least eliminate that specific misleading marketing pitch so it would help clean up the

2177
02:37:27,715 --> 02:37:30,835
space a little bit I Well I think.

2178
02:37:30,975 --> 02:37:33,323
But my family is calling me so I'm gonna drop

2179
02:37:33,403 --> 02:37:33,943
out of here.

2180
02:37:34,263 --> 02:37:36,523
I think you have some other people that can help moderate.

2181
02:37:37,283 --> 02:37:38,543
You guys have a good, great weekend.

2182
02:37:38,703 --> 02:37:39,983
I'm sorry to rush off right now.

2183
02:37:40,163 --> 02:37:40,783
Take care, guys.

2184
02:37:47,323 --> 02:37:50,383
Well, like I was saying, it'll do more than clean up the space.

2185
02:37:50,383 --> 02:37:53,172
it's going to wipe out a majority

2186
02:37:56,912 --> 02:38:01,692
the the the all coins and all the blockchains.

2187
02:38:02,312 --> 02:38:04,332
Let me know if you can hear me.

2188
02:38:04,452 --> 02:38:10,252
I've been having a pretty serious trouble this whole space so far,

2189
02:38:10,252 --> 02:38:12,272
so I'm not sure if I'll able to actually.

2190
02:38:13,940 --> 02:38:16,700
I think Greg has his mic on it.

2191
02:38:16,700 --> 02:38:17,860
It's causing a bunch of stuff.

2192
02:38:17,860 --> 02:38:18,660
Oh, yeah, I do.

2193
02:38:18,920 --> 02:38:24,780
I raised my hand I was wondering if there's anybody here who could address an

2194
02:38:24,780 --> 02:38:29,620
additional Question that came to my mind about running Ethereum,

2195
02:38:29,620 --> 02:38:32,800
an EVM chain on top of

2196
02:38:32,869 --> 02:38:33,629
Drivechain.

2197
02:38:35,449 --> 02:38:41,129
Because Ethereum has scaling problems and is choosing to go

2198
02:38:41,129 --> 02:38:43,429
with Layer2s to address that,

2199
02:38:45,289 --> 02:38:48,529
how does that play out on an EVM on top of Drivechain?

2200
02:38:48,689 --> 02:38:49,329
I'm going to assume.

2201
02:38:49,549 --> 02:38:50,269
me if my ...

2202
02:38:50,269 --> 02:38:51,309
How does that play out?

2203
02:38:51,749 --> 02:38:52,709
Do L2s run on

2204
02:38:52,758 --> 02:38:55,418
top of VEVM on Drivechain, the same L2s?

2205
02:38:55,418 --> 02:39:00,798
So anything that's going on on Ethereum, BPM today could also

2206
02:39:00,798 --> 02:39:06,038
be deployed on the Bitcoin, LayerTwo, Drivechain,

2207
02:39:06,458 --> 02:39:06,898
EVM.

2208
02:39:08,178 --> 02:39:08,698
Additionally,

2209
02:39:10,378 --> 02:39:12,566
Drivechains can have their own Drivechains.

2210
02:39:12,566 --> 02:39:18,286
Drivechains, so that could be an solution, another LayerTwo architecture

2211
02:39:18,286 --> 02:39:24,246
on top of it, even more so, all the roll -ups and the

2212
02:39:24,246 --> 02:39:30,166
bridges and what do we call it, Eejin chain or whatever, is kind of

2213
02:39:30,166 --> 02:39:32,406
like Drivechain on Ethereum, these can all

2214
02:39:32,475 --> 02:39:38,415
be deployed on the drivechain Okay, I just wanted to ask

2215
02:39:38,415 --> 02:39:44,355
because of that that's the problem that ethereum is facing But you wouldn't be scaling

2216
02:39:44,355 --> 02:39:50,055
ethereum no matter How you iterate that scenario it would be scoring bitcoin

2217
02:39:51,435 --> 02:39:51,875
Well,

2218
02:39:52,263 --> 02:40:10,223
the

2219
02:40:10,223 --> 02:40:12,112
through the bass chain so

2220
02:40:12,312 --> 02:40:17,252
I don't know, I don't see, I couldn't see, I don't know about if this would happen with

2221
02:40:17,252 --> 02:40:23,172
EVM, but you can imagine like large block or let's say sidechains that

2222
02:40:23,172 --> 02:40:25,232
are purely transactional focused.

2223
02:40:25,332 --> 02:40:27,652
So they'd likely be large block sidechains.

2224
02:40:28,412 --> 02:40:31,272
Well, because most

2225
02:40:32,220 --> 02:40:37,720
Most economic activity occurs with people who are somewhat similarly

2226
02:40:37,720 --> 02:40:39,440
located to you geographically.

2227
02:40:40,180 --> 02:40:45,860
It's likely that you could have geographically based large block sidechains,

2228
02:40:46,360 --> 02:40:51,660
you know, could have a North American, mean, not that there would be any like actual

2229
02:40:51,809 --> 02:40:57,809
borders or fences to keep those rules in place,

2230
02:40:57,949 --> 02:41:02,989
but it would probably just spontaneously, organically emerge that you would have

2231
02:41:02,989 --> 02:41:03,889
multiple

2232
02:41:05,169 --> 02:41:11,009
transactional sidechains that would likely be based on geography just

2233
02:41:11,009 --> 02:41:11,429
because

2234
02:41:11,658 --> 02:41:13,818
that's what kind of...

2235
02:41:14,718 --> 02:41:17,498
...the trend of actual activity in the real world is kind of based on.

2236
02:41:20,018 --> 02:41:21,498
Is this all...

2237
02:41:23,158 --> 02:41:27,838
I mean, is this all sharing one liquidity pool and fully composable, or are you talking

2238
02:41:27,838 --> 02:41:30,658
about a fragmented world?

2239
02:41:31,506 --> 02:41:36,506
Well, it would all be one liquidity pool because it would all be 21 million bitcoin.

2240
02:41:36,506 --> 02:41:38,506
Right. Right.

2241
02:41:38,506 --> 02:41:43,506
So it would all be linked together. And the other thing is that you can…

2242
02:41:44,506 --> 02:41:51,506
Payment channels between networks because as long as the sidechains are UTXO based and I would assume…

2243
02:41:51,506 --> 02:42:02,506
I mean it's almost certain that every single one of them would be or like the vast, vast majority, they can be linked with…

2244
02:42:02,506 --> 02:42:05,506
You could have payment channels between the sidechains as well.

2245
02:42:05,506 --> 02:42:13,506
So as long as you have a counterpart on the other side willing to swap the asset that's in that sidechain, you can do that.

2246
02:42:13,506 --> 02:42:23,506
Yeah, but that sounds like a temporary link. That sounds like a manual setup, temporary link. It's a one-to-one link rather than…

2247
02:42:23,506 --> 02:42:32,506
Well, it wouldn't be a temporary link. It would be just an arbitrage because at the end of the day, you can always withdraw to the main chain…

2248
02:42:32,506 --> 02:42:43,506
And then immediately deposit into any of the other sidechains. So there would be likely a robust market doing arbitrage.

2249
02:42:44,506 --> 02:43:09,506
And it would be a very – probably a very low, big arbitrage, but there would be some basically risk-free rate of return for anyone willing to put up their coin to cover the short-term supply and demand between the…

2250
02:43:09,506 --> 02:43:19,506
But you're describing this. I'm not disputing any of that, but you're describing what a sophisticated user would do.

2251
02:43:19,506 --> 02:43:26,506
I'm trying to imagine what an unsophisticated everyman would be able and willing to do.

2252
02:43:26,506 --> 02:43:38,506
It's just the same or even simpler than using Kraken or Coinbase today. It would likely be – well, probably Kraken, Coinbase, Binance would all have these services.

2253
02:43:38,506 --> 02:43:40,506
Oh, okay. Yeah.

2254
02:43:40,506 --> 02:43:43,506
Maybe the miners themselves would offer the services. There might be…

2255
02:43:43,506 --> 02:43:47,506
It would be front-ended. It would be front-ended.

2256
02:43:48,506 --> 02:43:58,506
It could be front-ended in many, many ways. It could be – and there already is a site that was kind of inspired by this called sideshift.ai.

2257
02:43:58,506 --> 02:44:10,506
So if you want to look at how somebody who built an exchange that was directly inspired by this idea of instant swap between sidechains…

2258
02:44:10,506 --> 02:44:13,506
On Drivechain or some other…

2259
02:44:13,506 --> 02:44:14,506
Yeah, exactly.

2260
02:44:14,506 --> 02:44:15,506
On Drivechain.

2261
02:44:15,506 --> 02:44:32,506
On the Drivechain, the site was inspired by the idea that a service provider would be needed to perform these short-term swaps between the sidechains.

2262
02:44:33,506 --> 02:44:52,506
And so there always will be somebody willing to take custody of the encumbered coins, the coins that are encumbered in the sidechain, and give you coins in a different sidechain or in the mainchain for some price.

2263
02:44:52,506 --> 02:45:09,506
Because they know to a certain very, very high level of confidence that they are going to receive – they can return their coins back to the basechain within three months or whatever the time is.

2264
02:45:09,506 --> 02:45:20,506
Because they can also kind of take custody of – these transactions would also occur with coins that are in process of being withdrawn as well.

2265
02:45:21,506 --> 02:45:29,506
So from a user experience standpoint, this sounds more complicated than the solutions that are being developed and talked about.

2266
02:45:29,506 --> 02:45:33,506
Not delivered today, but being developed and talked about on top of Ethereum.

2267
02:45:33,506 --> 02:45:36,506
Is that not necessarily true?

2268
02:45:36,506 --> 02:45:39,506
No, I think it's actually much simpler.

2269
02:45:40,506 --> 02:45:50,506
It's at least as simple as a user logging into the standard frontend for Uniswap.

2270
02:45:50,506 --> 02:45:52,506
Probably much simpler than that.

2271
02:45:52,506 --> 02:45:59,506
But also, there could be any number of services that basically act as a frontend for this same type of service.

2272
02:45:59,506 --> 02:46:04,506
Because what you're talking about is a very, very basic exchange service.

2273
02:46:04,506 --> 02:46:11,506
It's extremely basic because you're not even exchanging one asset for a different asset in a different blockchain.

2274
02:46:11,506 --> 02:46:19,506
You're exchanging assets in the same – so you don't even have to think about the pricing.

2275
02:46:20,506 --> 02:46:42,506
So it sounds – what seems to me to be a good user experience on the Ethereum narrative is Layer 2s are – they can easily, with ZK proofs, transfer assets between the different Layer 2s.

2276
02:46:43,506 --> 02:46:49,506
Without much problem because they're all trading on top of ETH or they're trading ETH or both.

2277
02:46:49,506 --> 02:46:53,506
And that's not the case between a bunch of alt L1s.

2278
02:46:53,506 --> 02:46:58,506
So the same argument could be made on this architecture.

2279
02:46:58,506 --> 02:47:07,506
Well, it's going to be as easy because that can be ported over directly as well onto the Layer 2 EDM.

2280
02:47:08,506 --> 02:47:14,506
It will at least be that easy because that will also be present in the ecosystem.

2281
02:47:14,506 --> 02:47:23,506
Right. So the only thing you're replacing is really the ETH as a settlement layer in that scenario.

2282
02:47:23,506 --> 02:47:25,506
You're just changing settlement layers.

2283
02:47:25,506 --> 02:47:28,506
The ETH would be the – well, there would be no ETH, but the…

2284
02:47:28,506 --> 02:47:30,506
I know. That's what I mean by replacing.

2285
02:47:31,506 --> 02:47:45,506
The ETH would be placed one level up and the ultimate settlement layer would then be the BTC base chain and all of the ETH as a settlement layer stuff right now would be in the second layer.

2286
02:47:45,506 --> 02:48:03,506
So it may be that when it's merged and then we have the benefit of some time, three years or whatever, that some basic fundamentals of how the ecosystem develops have changed.

2287
02:48:03,506 --> 02:48:29,506
But also from that perspective, from the perspective of the current ETH ecosystem, because maybe there'll be more specialized sidechains and some things like, I don't know, NFTs or something will be kind of all but absent from the EVM chain because they now are kind of intimately connected through the base chain to some other specialized sidechain.

2288
02:48:30,506 --> 02:48:36,506
That's kind of more focused on NFTs specifically or asset creation or whatever or maybe not.

2289
02:48:36,506 --> 02:48:51,506
Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, I was just curious to ask about scalability because that's an obvious barrier for…

2290
02:48:51,506 --> 02:49:17,506
Well, that's kind of one of the main, if not the main problem that drivechain solves is scalability because it allows for all the instances of the trade-off, all the spectrum of trade-offs between scalability and decentralization and all other trade-offs.

2291
02:49:18,506 --> 02:49:25,506
It allows for them all to exist on the network at once with the base chain making none of those trade-offs.

2292
02:49:26,506 --> 02:49:51,506
Yeah. While the base chain maintains as much decentralization as possible at the expense of base chain scalability, you can move that toggle to whatever point along the spectrum you want and create a chain on top of it that can make those trade-offs without risking the base chain.

2293
02:49:52,506 --> 02:49:55,506
When you say base chain, you mean the Bitcoin chain?

2294
02:49:56,506 --> 02:50:01,506
The Bitcoin network, yeah. So the Bitcoin network must remain as decentralized as possible.

2295
02:50:02,506 --> 02:50:11,506
The blocks must remain small. In fact, it's likely that in an ideal world, the blocks would be even smaller than they are today.

2296
02:50:12,506 --> 02:50:13,506
Really?

2297
02:50:13,506 --> 02:50:24,506
Which would obviously sacrifice scalability to a degree, but would make the network more robust from a decentralization perspective.

2298
02:50:25,506 --> 02:50:52,506
And if we had already had drivechain merge, the trade-off of lowering the block size, the scalability trade-off, would be a lot less risky to the security budget, to the usability of the network, to user acquisition, to the growth of the network, to the number go up of Bitcoin.

2299
02:50:53,506 --> 02:50:55,506
It would be a lot less risky than it would be today.

2300
02:50:56,506 --> 02:50:59,506
You mean if the block size was smaller?

2301
02:51:00,506 --> 02:51:11,506
Yeah. If we were to lower the block size today, sans drivechain, it's a pretty serious trade-off. It's a very serious scalability trade-off that's there.

2302
02:51:12,506 --> 02:51:22,506
Can I ask you why? I never understood this. I've been trying to understand. Why does a smaller block size make it less scalable?

2303
02:51:23,506 --> 02:51:27,506
Because there's less space in each block for users to transact.

2304
02:51:28,506 --> 02:51:48,506
So less transactions can make it into each block, which means less users can get a transaction into each block, which means eventually, perhaps, would mean a much more expensive transaction.

2305
02:51:49,506 --> 02:52:09,506
So very simply put, the trade-off with that is that it makes it much easier to run a node because you have much lower, mostly bandwidth, but also hardware.

2306
02:52:09,506 --> 02:52:14,506
Yeah, hardware, although that's kind of really not a bottleneck at this point.

2307
02:52:15,506 --> 02:52:32,506
But you can imagine with a smaller block size that the worst, the most adverse conditions, like you're in sub-Saharan Africa in the middle of a brutal civil war or something, and you're still able to tap into enough bandwidth to run your own node.

2308
02:52:33,506 --> 02:52:40,506
Which, in a hyper-Bitcoinized world, that is a scenario which maybe somebody somewhere is going to need to do.

2309
02:52:41,506 --> 02:52:52,506
Maybe they only have some very rudimentary internet connection, very low bandwidth, they're in the middle of a conflict zone, whatever you can think of as worst-case scenario.

2310
02:52:53,506 --> 02:52:57,506
But basically, it's easier to run a node, so you imagine there'll be more nodes running.

2311
02:52:58,506 --> 02:53:06,506
Yeah, so that's, I guess – I don't know if I articulated it the best, but that's basically the trade-off.

2312
02:53:07,506 --> 02:53:13,506
What about what Jack Dorsey's working on? Wouldn't it be easier with smaller block sizes, given what you just said?

2313
02:53:14,506 --> 02:53:18,506
Like an appliance, a home appliance that spits out Bitcoin, a heater, a home heater.

2314
02:53:19,506 --> 02:53:24,506
I think Jack Dorsey's working on a home heating device that mines Bitcoin.

2315
02:53:25,506 --> 02:53:27,506
I mean, is that relevant to what you're arguing?

2316
02:53:28,506 --> 02:53:32,506
Well, not exactly. Although there's a bunch of – I mean, there's plenty of discussion around that.

2317
02:53:33,506 --> 02:53:47,506
Because one of the – funny enough, one of the main arguments against drivechains is that it creates this kind of side business for that miners are going to then be required to engage in.

2318
02:53:48,506 --> 02:53:51,506
Thus increasing the cost of mining or whatever.

2319
02:53:52,506 --> 02:54:02,506
But it's kind of analogous to the mining being used to heat a house or heat a swimming pool or heat a greenhouse or do whatever, XYZ.

2320
02:54:03,506 --> 02:54:08,506
It kind of highlights how ridiculous that argument can get.

2321
02:54:09,506 --> 02:54:11,506
But anyway, that's kind of a distraction.

2322
02:54:12,506 --> 02:54:14,506
Or at least from the point we were talking about earlier, we can talk about anything you want.

2323
02:54:14,506 --> 02:54:20,506
No, it's okay. I don't want to distract. I just try to understand the block size argument.

2324
02:54:21,506 --> 02:54:25,506
It was never – everybody assumes it's understandable, but it's never been clear.

2325
02:54:26,506 --> 02:54:29,506
Well, that's the very basic thing is there's a tradeoff.

2326
02:54:29,506 --> 02:54:41,506
The larger block size allows for more transactions in every block but makes it more difficult to run your own validating node.

2327
02:54:42,506 --> 02:54:45,506
And the inverse is true of a smaller block size.

2328
02:54:46,506 --> 02:54:47,506
Okay. All right.

2329
02:54:48,506 --> 02:54:55,506
That's been the crux of a lot of – probably the most drama in the history of this industry is that tradeoff.

2330
02:54:55,506 --> 02:55:04,506
I've been reading a lot about that because there's some loud voices on Twitter about how that was just Bitcoin's biggest mistake and that core took it over.

2331
02:55:05,506 --> 02:55:11,506
Bitcoin Core took it over, and that it's going to ultimately be the demise of Bitcoin and all that stuff.

2332
02:55:12,506 --> 02:55:19,506
I mean the small blocks needed to win. I would say that if they're saying that that's Bitcoin's biggest mistake, that's not correct.

2333
02:55:20,506 --> 02:55:27,506
Small blocks are superior if you have that binary, if it has to be one or the other.

2334
02:55:28,506 --> 02:55:30,506
However, with drivechains, it doesn't have to be one or the other.

2335
02:55:31,506 --> 02:55:39,506
So in that whole argument, if it was presented as either small blocks or big blocks, then small blocks is superior but not without cost.

2336
02:55:40,506 --> 02:55:44,506
However, the real answer was, but why not both?

2337
02:55:45,506 --> 02:55:57,506
Because you can have an optional big block sidechain on top of a mandatory small block main chain, but you cannot have the inverse.

2338
02:55:58,506 --> 02:56:08,506
You cannot have a small block, more decentralized, more robust from the perspective of validation.

2339
02:56:09,506 --> 02:56:15,506
You can't have that on top of a less decentralized hard block main chain.

2340
02:56:16,506 --> 02:56:21,506
Because you can aggregate the small blocks into a big block, but you can't split up a big block into a bunch of small blocks.

2341
02:56:22,506 --> 02:56:29,506
Well, it's more so that you can have the base chain, which is mandatory for anybody running any sidechain.

2342
02:56:30,506 --> 02:56:37,506
You can have that be small block with more decentralized, more decentralization.

2343
02:56:38,506 --> 02:56:44,506
Like if you sacrifice the decentralization on the base chain, that sacrifice goes all the way up.

2344
02:56:45,506 --> 02:56:50,506
You can think of it as a check valve.

2345
02:56:50,506 --> 02:56:59,506
So the drivechain above the base chain, the attributes of the base chain can flow up, but they can't flow back down.

2346
02:57:00,506 --> 02:57:04,506
There's a firewall. It's more of a check valve because it's unidirectional.

2347
02:57:05,506 --> 02:57:23,506
So any drama or politics or even a complete blow up or centralization, whatever that happens on the sidechains, the base chain, because of the way the drivechains are constructed, the base chain is protected from any of that.

2348
02:57:24,506 --> 02:57:25,506
Right, right.

2349
02:57:26,506 --> 02:57:27,506
We have someone raising their hand.

2350
02:57:28,506 --> 02:57:30,506
Okay, thanks for your answers. Thanks for your help.

2351
02:57:30,506 --> 02:57:34,506
My pleasure. I hope it's somewhat insightful. I don't know.

2352
02:57:35,506 --> 02:57:38,506
No, it is. It is very helpful.

2353
02:57:39,506 --> 02:57:40,506
Well, thank you for participating.

2354
02:57:41,506 --> 02:57:42,506
Thank you.

2355
02:57:46,506 --> 02:57:47,506
Hello, how are you?

2356
02:57:48,506 --> 02:57:49,506
Is this Mr. Pseudonym?

2357
02:57:50,506 --> 02:57:51,506
Yes. How are you doing?

2358
02:57:52,506 --> 02:58:02,506
Doing very well. I can't really see when somebody's talking because my Twitter is buggy, but thank you for joining.

2359
02:58:03,506 --> 02:58:05,506
Thanks for answering the question.

2360
02:58:06,506 --> 02:58:17,506
I'm a little bit worried or curious about what kind of user experience and network effect is expected.

2361
02:58:18,506 --> 02:58:23,506
And I say that based on just using Lightning, there's lots of friction.

2362
02:58:26,506 --> 02:58:35,506
So we need to use another wallet and there's already been a sidechain from Blockstream, which has gained zero traction.

2363
02:58:36,506 --> 02:58:51,506
And so I'm wondering what's the most optimistic path to having enough demand for people to go through hoops to install another wallet and deal with something different.

2364
02:58:52,506 --> 02:59:00,506
And also another thing that worries me is that if there's a finality thing and each drive... I guess eventually...

2365
02:59:01,506 --> 02:59:10,506
Yeah, it seems like a complexity to tell people about the level of finality they can expect on a drivechain.

2366
02:59:11,506 --> 02:59:29,506
So I think maybe the finality is a strength versus altcoins because the sidechains are merge-mined on top of Bitcoin, which has by far the most finality guarantees.

2367
02:59:30,506 --> 02:59:39,506
Practically speaking, there's no checkpoint, there's no explicit finality guaranteed in the code.

2368
02:59:40,506 --> 02:59:53,506
The size of the network or the size of the security budget of the network of Bitcoin so far exceeds everything else that I'd say the de facto finality on Bitcoin dwarfs any other asset.

2369
02:59:54,506 --> 03:00:02,506
And the sidechains on top of that would inherit that finality to a very large degree.

2370
03:00:05,386 --> 03:00:14,386
Well, I'm not so sure of that because on Bitcoin miners have a capital expenditure in terms of owning miners and owning the data center.

2371
03:00:14,386 --> 03:00:23,386
As on the drivechain, it's more like whoever pays more to reverse the transaction. That's my understanding.

2372
03:00:24,386 --> 03:00:47,386
It is. However, the market would develop to the point where the size of the drivechain, the utilization of the drivechain would work its way up to, how would you say, giving as much money as possible to the basechain miners.

2373
03:00:48,386 --> 03:00:53,386
What were the other two questions? I think you had three.

2374
03:00:56,386 --> 03:01:10,386
That is my first thing because I've tried the liquid sidechain and one of my issues with it is that to take out, you basically have to go through a centralized entity.

2375
03:01:11,386 --> 03:01:12,386
Yeah, of course.

2376
03:01:12,386 --> 03:01:15,386
And that's as bad as almost using a KYC exchange.

2377
03:01:19,386 --> 03:01:29,386
I'm assuming that with drivechain, because it's more trustless de-pegging, there'll be more liquidity.

2378
03:01:30,386 --> 03:01:42,386
Yeah, so the comparison of liquid to drivechain is, I mean, you can see why it's made, but I think it's given much more weight than it should.

2379
03:01:43,386 --> 03:01:48,386
Well, one thing is what you just said. Basically, liquid is a centralized entity.

2380
03:01:48,386 --> 03:01:57,386
Now, people will come back and say, no, it's whatever. It's a 15 signature wallet, multi-sig or whatever.

2381
03:01:57,386 --> 03:02:04,386
However, we don't know who those 15 signatories are until extremely recently.

2382
03:02:04,386 --> 03:02:13,386
I don't remember exactly, but until basically sometime earlier this year, not that long ago, it was closed source.

2383
03:02:14,386 --> 03:02:28,386
It's basically kind of a very different thing than having the same kind of or the miners themselves process these withdrawals.

2384
03:02:29,386 --> 03:02:42,386
The ethos of Bitcoin, I would say, is not exactly the ethos of liquid.

2385
03:02:42,386 --> 03:02:52,386
I think liquid was kind of originally meant to kind of just do very rapid Bitcoin settlement between exchanges and the like.

2386
03:02:52,386 --> 03:03:01,386
But it never really fulfilled that promise for a number of reasons.

2387
03:03:01,386 --> 03:03:09,386
But I think one of the main reasons is that all the all the liquid exchanges, not the liquid exchanges being like exchanges that use liquid.

2388
03:03:09,386 --> 03:03:16,386
I mean, the exchanges that like matter in terms of price recovery, the big market makers on there.

2389
03:03:16,386 --> 03:03:27,386
They won. They have enough capital to have some in motion just on the base chain, just on an L1 L1 transfer between, let's say, like Bitfinex or Kraken.

2390
03:03:28,386 --> 03:03:45,386
But, too, they have like credit agreements and all sorts of arrangements with these exchanges so that should there be a large price shift and there actually be an arbitrage opportunity,

2391
03:03:46,386 --> 03:03:56,386
the they don't need to use a liquid because they already have something that's kind of like a stopgap for capital at these exchanges.

2392
03:03:57,386 --> 03:04:17,386
A stopgap that that is what will allow them to take advantage of those price movements, make those markets and then transfer the capital to get to rebalance their their, you know, their various accounts at the exchanges.

2393
03:04:18,386 --> 03:04:33,386
Without just using an L1 transaction, because, you know, they're only you know, they have the agreements with the exchanges in place so that they can wait the hour or two to be credited with more with a Bitcoin transaction on the exchanges.

2394
03:04:33,386 --> 03:04:34,386
Does that make sense?

2395
03:04:35,386 --> 03:04:51,386
So I was working at Kraken for many years and I worked I worked at Kraken for more than eight years before I kind of teamed up with Paul to work on LayerTwo Labs.

2396
03:04:51,386 --> 03:05:11,386
And I remember that Liquids, I remember when this was maybe five years ago or whatever, Liquid trying to, they had like a salesman from Blockstream trying to persuade Kraken and I'm sure that he was talking to every other major exchange to try to adopt Liquid.

2397
03:05:12,386 --> 03:05:39,386
And the main, I don't really know what they're doing today, but the main use case proposed back then was was Bitcoin settlement basically was so that users could move their Bitcoin from, you know, Kraken to Bitfinex and vice versa in seconds or minutes instead of having to wait for an hour or whatever or having to wait for one confirmation or whatever.

2398
03:05:39,386 --> 03:05:41,386
I don't know. I don't know what Kraken is doing today.

2399
03:05:41,386 --> 03:05:48,386
But back then, even for the biggest traders, we made every user wait for six confirmations.

2400
03:05:48,386 --> 03:05:51,386
But I know that Kraken was the only exchange to do that.

2401
03:05:51,386 --> 03:05:59,386
So already, I believe every other exchange for their big market makers was crediting in with one confirmation.

2402
03:06:00,386 --> 03:06:04,386
So basically, Liquid and I think Liquid only I think Liquid has like one minute block times.

2403
03:06:04,386 --> 03:06:06,386
It's not like 15 seconds.

2404
03:06:06,386 --> 03:06:24,386
So I believe basically what they were their value add was was taking for the most part was was was taking the confirmation through the crediting, the speed of crediting Bitcoin on an exchange down from 10 minutes to one minute.

2405
03:06:24,386 --> 03:06:40,386
And for that, the tradeoff is that it's encumbered not by not by the miners as in drivechain that's encumbered by this, like, you know, somewhat opaque federation.

2406
03:06:40,386 --> 03:06:44,386
And back then, it was even more ridiculous because they were trying.

2407
03:06:45,386 --> 03:06:50,386
They were. Let me try to get this all in order to get this all straight.

2408
03:06:50,386 --> 03:07:00,386
They were they were saying one of their security pillars of their security was that the Liquid network was only running.

2409
03:07:00,386 --> 03:07:06,386
The nodes would only run on these proprietary servers that had thermite.

2410
03:07:06,386 --> 03:07:09,386
So if they were tampered with, they would self-destruct.

2411
03:07:10,386 --> 03:07:14,386
I don't know if they're still if they're actually ever deployed that or.

2412
03:07:14,386 --> 03:07:16,386
Yeah, that's fine.

2413
03:07:16,386 --> 03:07:23,386
But I think we can agree that increased settlement time and only settlement that was not a good enough.

2414
03:07:23,386 --> 03:07:29,386
There was not enough demand for that because they already are very trustworthy entities.

2415
03:07:30,386 --> 03:07:33,386
You can't keep each other started.

2416
03:07:33,386 --> 03:07:36,386
It was one story.

2417
03:07:36,386 --> 03:07:42,386
But then, you know, whatever, six months or because that was, I believe, in 2016 or maybe moving to 2017.

2418
03:07:42,386 --> 03:07:54,386
But things changed so much between beginning of 2017 and the end, because in the beginning, the main the chief market makers like unifying the pricing throughout the market in this industry were.

2419
03:07:55,386 --> 03:07:57,386
I don't know.

2420
03:07:57,386 --> 03:07:59,386
You know, we're not amateurs by any means.

2421
03:07:59,386 --> 03:08:14,386
But by the end, it was like Sequoia and Jump Capital and all of these like major HFT traditional market participants were all beginning to deploy capital.

2422
03:08:15,386 --> 03:08:18,386
And they have absolutely no shortage of capital.

2423
03:08:18,386 --> 03:08:21,386
Of course, they want to get the most bang bang for their buck.

2424
03:08:21,386 --> 03:08:31,386
But, yeah, the whole promise of liquid was much less attractive.

2425
03:08:31,386 --> 03:08:40,386
And on the other end of things, the the the the venues changed a great deal.

2426
03:08:41,386 --> 03:08:48,386
So one thing about the 2017 bull market was that the chief price discovery venue was BitMEX.

2427
03:08:48,386 --> 03:08:50,386
And of course, at the time, I don't think so anymore.

2428
03:08:50,386 --> 03:08:56,386
But at the time, BitMEX was only Bitcoin, Bitcoin in, Bitcoin out, only Bitcoin.

2429
03:09:01,386 --> 03:09:05,386
Everything. You're only the only collateral you could have on your account with Bitcoin.

2430
03:09:05,386 --> 03:09:08,386
Of course, you could take positions to like hedge that.

2431
03:09:08,386 --> 03:09:12,386
You could just do like a neutral short or whatever, like a one X short or whatever.

2432
03:09:12,386 --> 03:09:17,386
But the base asset, the only thing you'd have in your account was Bitcoin.

2433
03:09:18,386 --> 03:09:33,386
So with all the liquidity in BitMEX and the market being so volatile, so like such a crazy bull market that year, there was a lot of demand for Bitcoin just for people to fund their BitMEX accounts.

2434
03:09:35,386 --> 03:09:38,386
That's not the case anymore. I mean, now there's all sorts of assets.

2435
03:09:38,386 --> 03:09:46,386
Ethereum has a non-trivial amount of of of volume and is and represents the cross like the currency on a non-trivial.

2436
03:09:46,386 --> 03:09:58,386
Not, you know, Bitcoin still has much more, but the amount like of markets and the size of the market that Ethereum is the currency for today is definitely not trivial.

2437
03:09:59,386 --> 03:10:07,386
And of course, now stable coins are, I believe, the vast majority of the currencies like in this market.

2438
03:10:07,386 --> 03:10:09,386
So things are completely different now.

2439
03:10:10,386 --> 03:10:14,386
But I think maybe that's gotten off the topic.

2440
03:10:15,386 --> 03:10:32,386
So my main question is what kind of like use case do you foresee as being the main driver of like demand or to go to basically borrow to learn a new trade off and learn a new wallet?

2441
03:10:33,386 --> 03:10:36,386
Because like just transacting is not it.

2442
03:10:36,386 --> 03:10:40,386
And there won't be any altcoins like issuance.

2443
03:10:40,386 --> 03:10:46,386
There might be some here in that it will be or it will be.

2444
03:10:46,386 --> 03:10:57,386
I don't know if it will be, but it could be very similar, almost the exact same user experience as today, where a user who wants to interact with all coins and Bitcoin and coins and whatever,

2445
03:10:57,386 --> 03:11:12,386
except for that there's one less extremely important variable they have to have to contend with, which is the, you know, the price variability between these assets and the like.

2446
03:11:13,386 --> 03:11:30,386
Whatever user interfaces or user experience is happening today on whatever asset they're using, whether they're using that, whether they're running their own node, their own Solana node, their own Binance Smart Chain node, which is a joke because obviously no one's running their own nodes for those things.

2447
03:11:31,386 --> 03:11:44,386
But even if they were, they could do that as well on the clones of the things on Bitcoin, or they could interact with it through whatever the whatever somebody will make.

2448
03:11:45,386 --> 03:12:09,386
I'm sure a clone of MetaMask for drivechains or they could interact with it through a centralized exchange as many, if not the majority of people who are crypto asset owners or crypto market participants do like probably the vast majority of people who are in the market have never even set up their own wallet, much less their own node.

2449
03:12:09,386 --> 03:12:20,386
They just go on to their favorite exchange and buy their favorite shit coin and log off and hope for gains.

2450
03:12:20,386 --> 03:12:22,386
And that's the extent of their participation.

2451
03:12:22,386 --> 03:12:43,386
So any experience that the user is experiencing today, that can be ported directly to drivechains and it could be improved because no longer do you need to worry about which asset to speculate in because Bitcoin swallows it all.

2452
03:12:44,386 --> 03:13:02,386
But in terms of like altcoin utility, what I noticed is that there's the centralized exchange and what is being traded on the centralized exchange, let's say I check Uniswap top pair.

2453
03:13:02,386 --> 03:13:07,386
Well, there's one that's like, yeah, there's like a volume.

2454
03:13:08,386 --> 03:13:18,386
There's Ethereum and stablecoin and rapidcoin, Lido, Pepe, DAI.

2455
03:13:18,386 --> 03:13:28,386
So this is basically just trading chain coin and stablecoin on Ethereum.

2456
03:13:29,386 --> 03:13:35,386
I'm guessing like speculating on the price of Bitcoin and maybe like synthetic stablecoin.

2457
03:13:36,386 --> 03:13:49,386
Well, if people want to give me space, like let's say like and it was so first of all, any of that token creation, like much to the dismay of some of the critics that can occur on drivechains as well.

2458
03:13:49,386 --> 03:14:01,386
If you want to spin up, you know, some asset that's tied to nothing and is just a meme coin based on a frog or whatever you want, you can do that on drivechains as well.

2459
03:14:02,386 --> 03:14:10,386
But there is, you know, they're likely to be some sacrifice in terms of speculation on.

2460
03:14:10,386 --> 03:14:18,386
Well, basically what it's come down to is you're saying like the main use case for all coins that you see is these decentralized gambling markets.

2461
03:14:19,386 --> 03:14:20,386
Well, that might be.

2462
03:14:22,386 --> 03:14:32,386
And there's a whole lot of composability within Ethereum where people use Ethereum to buy some Pepe or some other garbage.

2463
03:14:33,386 --> 03:14:35,386
And if there's no garbage on.

2464
03:14:36,386 --> 03:14:40,386
So there's already like a network effect of all the garbage is at the same place.

2465
03:14:41,386 --> 03:14:47,386
That's that's what I want to make a lot of garbage on top of Bitcoin.

2466
03:14:47,386 --> 03:14:50,386
There's there's a massive amount of room to make a lot of garbage on top of Bitcoin.

2467
03:14:50,386 --> 03:14:57,386
And if Bitcoin becomes, you know, the main or in time the only L1 speculative asset.

2468
03:14:57,386 --> 03:15:00,386
Well, you could always just kind of lever that up.

2469
03:15:00,386 --> 03:15:02,386
Right. You could have a you could.

2470
03:15:02,386 --> 03:15:09,386
I think like, you know, like this stuff that was on FTX, this like BTC 100 coin or whatever, which is like a hundred X.

2471
03:15:09,386 --> 03:15:21,386
I don't know if they ever had a hundred X, but they basically had like bull Bitcoin coin where it would like it was a separate coin created by FTX that would track the price of Bitcoin, but levered or something like that.

2472
03:15:22,386 --> 03:15:36,386
That basically all of that stuff, anything that exists on these all coins, unless, you know, you have some specific, really nuanced edge case example that I'm not thinking of.

2473
03:15:36,386 --> 03:15:41,386
All of that can and likely will exist on top of Bitcoin.

2474
03:15:41,386 --> 03:15:51,386
And likely very shortly after merging drivechains, because people can just copy and paste it, all the stuff that already exists today.

2475
03:15:51,386 --> 03:16:05,386
It's likely that everything of any note that is has, you know, a lot of users or has a lot of attention on Ethereum or other all coin, that stuff will likely exist on top of Bitcoin within weeks.

2476
03:16:05,386 --> 03:16:25,386
So the example of that are like kind of lead developer CryptAxe likes to say or likes to talk about, maybe he's here, but basically you have Zcash did like version five and they have, you know, the whatever is companies like electric coin company.

2477
03:16:25,386 --> 03:16:31,386
And they have like, I don't know, five or 10 PhD cryptographers under on their staff.

2478
03:16:31,386 --> 03:16:36,386
And it took them two years to create this version five, which was a huge upgrade.

2479
03:16:36,386 --> 03:16:41,386
It eliminated the trusted setup and it changed a lot of things.

2480
03:16:41,386 --> 03:16:45,386
And it was a lot of work, I'm sure, for all these people.

2481
03:16:45,386 --> 03:16:56,386
And then like 48 hours later, the Zcash version five had been copied onto the drivechain test net.

2482
03:16:56,386 --> 03:16:59,386
And it was like it wasn't like a hardcore 48 hours.

2483
03:16:59,386 --> 03:17:09,386
It was like a 48 hours with, you know, plenty of sleep and rest and plenty of time to relax in between sprints of work.

2484
03:17:10,386 --> 03:17:18,386
Because basically the engineer just took the code that was open source that was released the Zcash version five.

2485
03:17:18,386 --> 03:17:22,386
And in many instances, literally copy and pasted it.

2486
03:17:22,386 --> 03:17:30,386
And 48 hours later, it was deployed to the drivechain test net and ready to be used.

2487
03:17:30,386 --> 03:17:43,386
And so anything that's out there today could literally just be copy and pasted onto the drivechain EVM test net, which also already exists.

2488
03:17:43,386 --> 03:17:48,386
And already it is a perfect clone of the Ethereum EVM.

2489
03:17:48,386 --> 03:17:59,386
So much so that as a test, you know, many contracts have been copy and pasted onto the drivechain EVM test net and they function, they function.

2490
03:18:03,386 --> 03:18:17,386
Well, basically, one of the things that with drivechain, every shitcoin developer becomes a Bitcoin developer, whether they want to or not, whether they are happy about it or not.

2491
03:18:17,386 --> 03:18:25,386
Anything that comes to any shitcoin can be then deployed onto Bitcoin.

2492
03:18:25,386 --> 03:18:32,386
Most importantly, with no downside to the Bitcoin base chain, the Bitcoin base chain doesn't even know about it.

2493
03:18:32,386 --> 03:18:34,386
It doesn't even know that it's happened.

2494
03:18:34,386 --> 03:18:43,386
The Bitcoin base chain does not know that Zcash version five has been has been implemented on top of it.

2495
03:18:44,386 --> 03:18:45,386
Yeah.

2496
03:18:46,386 --> 03:18:53,386
Yeah, I guess there would be no shitcoin developer, but let's say someone wants to create a token that represents real world assets.

2497
03:18:53,386 --> 03:18:59,386
He could use that, let's say the volcano bond or something so people could trade it with Bitcoin.

2498
03:19:00,386 --> 03:19:04,386
But like each drivechain, it's its own bubble.

2499
03:19:04,386 --> 03:19:14,386
So I see like a composability issue where, like, let's say you have a stablecoin USDT on one drivechain and you want to transfer it to the other one.

2500
03:19:14,386 --> 03:19:18,386
You kind of need to wait or use a third party.

2501
03:19:18,386 --> 03:19:26,386
And it's like the shitcoin, they go where there's a lot of dumb money.

2502
03:19:26,386 --> 03:19:28,386
So that's why they go on Ethereum.

2503
03:19:28,386 --> 03:19:33,386
But that's also the case today on any network.

2504
03:19:33,386 --> 03:19:51,386
Like if you want to transfer USDT on Ethereum to USDT on Tron, you'll need some sort of intermediaries or some sort of counterpart to trade with or you need some sort of bridge or whatever.

2505
03:19:51,386 --> 03:19:56,386
But whatever it is, that can be built on top of the EVM on top of Bitcoin.

2506
03:19:56,386 --> 03:19:57,386
So you see what I'm saying?

2507
03:19:57,386 --> 03:20:09,386
Like whatever problem that you're addressing, that problem exists already on top of the EVM or whatever else we're trying to copy.

2508
03:20:09,386 --> 03:20:15,386
And the solutions that they come up with there can be copied on to.

2509
03:20:16,056 --> 03:20:32,136
The Bitcoin sidechain as well, but at the base of it, it's stronger because we have 21 million Bitcoin that will then be the foundation for all of these networks with all of their solutions.

2510
03:20:32,136 --> 03:20:42,136
And they all can be because there is always that option to deposit coins into one network and withdraw them from the network.

2511
03:20:43,015 --> 03:20:48,536
Perhaps that opens up more space for solutions than even exists today.

2512
03:20:50,456 --> 03:21:04,855
Well, it democratizes access to being a market maker on Niquid, where you have to be a federation member and like 80% of them are exchange, which I don't want to do.

2513
03:21:05,736 --> 03:21:20,295
So that's great, but I don't ascribe too much to the narrative of like to kill the shitcoin because I don't see like a clear network effect building up ever again in my mind.

2514
03:21:20,376 --> 03:21:37,736
I disagree with that a lot, because the network effect is already there. Because despite all of the advantages or whatever of all of these shitcoins, Bitcoin is still the strongest network, objectively speaking.

2515
03:21:38,216 --> 03:21:43,895
Bitcoin is still by far the highest market cap, which is the most important metric.

2516
03:21:45,416 --> 03:21:47,015
And so the network effect is already there.

2517
03:21:48,456 --> 03:22:00,376
So what we're talking about is taking what's already number one, what's already the strongest network with the strongest security guarantees and just porting over everything on top of that.

2518
03:22:00,456 --> 03:22:08,376
So the real question is, how will the network effect of these networks that are not in first place survive?

2519
03:22:08,935 --> 03:22:12,456
Right. It's not like Ethereum is not in first place.

2520
03:22:12,536 --> 03:22:21,575
Bitcoin, despite all its limited functionality and despite not being able to copy every single thing that Ethereum does, is still in first place.

2521
03:22:21,975 --> 03:22:33,895
So if you have Bitcoin with Ethereum and everything else combined versus Ethereum without Bitcoin and everything else combined, how is that a stronger network effect?

2522
03:22:34,776 --> 03:22:37,496
When it's already winning, Bitcoin is already winning for now, you know.

2523
03:22:38,056 --> 03:22:42,615
Well, it's a stronger effect because it has zero monetary value or it should not have any.

2524
03:22:43,016 --> 03:22:50,296
And people use it for gas because they want to trade the existing 5000 garbage.

2525
03:22:50,776 --> 03:22:56,296
And the 5000 garbage were created like some of them, like six, seven, eight years ago.

2526
03:22:56,695 --> 03:23:05,175
And I guess you can't compete with like six years of like garbage with like new garbage.

2527
03:23:05,895 --> 03:23:09,975
Like, I mean, you have to use RAP.

2528
03:23:11,576 --> 03:23:15,016
Why would that even be the case at all?

2529
03:23:15,016 --> 03:23:16,136
Of course you can compete.

2530
03:23:16,136 --> 03:23:21,175
It's not like what's it there today is the end all be all of innovation.

2531
03:23:21,175 --> 03:23:30,136
And I mean, what was like things that were there six years ago are likely not even used today.

2532
03:23:31,815 --> 03:23:34,216
You know, like what was the I don't know.

2533
03:23:34,216 --> 03:23:41,016
I'm trying to think of like like one of the first big things, the boom Ethereum was Auger.

2534
03:23:41,735 --> 03:23:43,735
Auger. No one uses Auger today.

2535
03:23:43,735 --> 03:23:52,535
Auger was never used in the only thing Auger was used for was people buying the ICO and speculating that by the time the network launched, nobody cared anymore.

2536
03:23:53,016 --> 03:23:56,056
And then there was what else?

2537
03:23:56,296 --> 03:23:57,895
All sorts of garbage like that.

2538
03:23:57,895 --> 03:24:02,216
That's gone down ninety nine point nine percent and is no longer used by anybody ever.

2539
03:24:02,535 --> 03:24:09,576
And then there was like CryptoKitties was the first of these like generative NFT things or whatever.

2540
03:24:10,535 --> 03:24:11,416
Nobody uses that anymore.

2541
03:24:11,416 --> 03:24:13,095
So, of course, it's complete nonsense.

2542
03:24:13,095 --> 03:24:16,455
Six years is nothing, especially when you're talking about Bitcoin's already number one.

2543
03:24:16,455 --> 03:24:22,455
You know, it's like to think that Bitcoin can't compete with Ethereum when it already does is already winning.

2544
03:24:23,175 --> 03:24:24,216
Of course they can.

2545
03:24:24,936 --> 03:24:30,376
And of course, like whatever you're using today in six years from now, you're going to it's probably going to be comical.

2546
03:24:30,776 --> 03:24:41,015
The idea that like whatever that Auger is going to hold any value or that Civic is going to hold any value or poet or whatever the ICOs.

2547
03:24:41,015 --> 03:24:43,175
I mean, what was that six years ago now?

2548
03:24:44,376 --> 03:24:45,656
Not quite, but oh, yeah.

2549
03:24:45,656 --> 03:24:46,855
So it was about six years ago.

2550
03:24:48,295 --> 03:24:52,855
None of these things have have have more than like a 98 percent drawdown.

2551
03:24:53,096 --> 03:25:00,135
If you have an ICO from from 2017 that's only had a 95 percent drawdown, you're like in the elite.

2552
03:25:00,376 --> 03:25:03,335
You know, it's like none of these things are relevant at all.

2553
03:25:04,295 --> 03:25:18,376
Yeah, so I think one of the the use case I see most for the drivechain is to convert Bitcoin to stablecoin and just be trade this in a decentralized way.

2554
03:25:18,376 --> 03:25:31,976
So because right now, people, there is demand for stablecoin, but you have to go to Ethereum to be able to go in and out instead of all you have to use wrapped Bitcoin, which you can never redraw.

2555
03:25:32,936 --> 03:25:34,696
Like, you know, trust this manner.

2556
03:25:35,496 --> 03:25:37,656
So, yeah, it's good.

2557
03:25:37,656 --> 03:25:40,135
I mean, thanks for answering my question.

2558
03:25:40,135 --> 03:25:41,096
It's just.

2559
03:25:42,376 --> 03:25:51,335
Right, right, because I see that's the demand that's like perfectly illustrates the demand in spite of all of its downsides.

2560
03:25:51,335 --> 03:25:55,816
That's much more illustrative of the demand for drivechains than liquid.

2561
03:25:55,816 --> 03:26:01,335
I think wrapped Bitcoin is a much better analogy to what drivechains actually are than than is liquid.

2562
03:26:01,496 --> 03:26:19,096
And the demand is is obviously huge there in spite of all of the risks and trade offs of like kind of instead of just, you know, handing your funds to BitGo and hoping that they do what's right by you with drivechains.

2563
03:26:19,096 --> 03:26:21,575
It has a much, much more secure architecture.

2564
03:26:22,135 --> 03:26:23,656
But yeah, sorry to interrupt you.

2565
03:26:24,216 --> 03:26:25,895
I think maybe there's like a slight lag.

2566
03:26:26,855 --> 03:26:28,056
Thank you for your question.

2567
03:26:28,135 --> 03:26:28,635
Thanks.

2568
03:26:31,256 --> 03:26:31,756
Yeah.

2569
03:26:32,936 --> 03:26:41,656
It's like, what kind of like architecture like do you see as the first drivechain?

2570
03:26:41,656 --> 03:26:50,135
Because there's the EVM and then there's Zcash and then maybe there's other kind of like consensus mechanism.

2571
03:26:50,216 --> 03:27:12,216
There's a few that are ready for like, so if just, you know, by chance that we let's say we put out the the final draft PR requests tomorrow, they were just like, you know, dropped out of nowhere and the miners on Sunday merged it and by Monday, drivechains was a done deal in Bitcoin.

2572
03:27:13,175 --> 03:27:22,936
I think right now there is maybe Henry can verify, but I think there's like seven ready for launch, I believe.

2573
03:27:22,936 --> 03:27:36,776
So there's like we said, there's the EVM sidechain, there's a Zcash sidechain, there's what's called Thunder, which is basically just a big block sidechain.

2574
03:27:37,735 --> 03:27:56,455
There's BitAssets, so that's like, kind of just an after generation specific sidechain that's not, it's like kind of its own, its own thing, it's not based on a, it's not a clone of any existing altcoin.

2575
03:27:57,415 --> 03:28:07,015
I guess that would be most similar to kind of like Namecoin or something, the BitAssets, but like more broad.

2576
03:28:07,015 --> 03:28:26,376
There, there's more to there's more of them, and likely likely Paul would release his, his prediction market sidechain in a month, you know, I'm not sure if it's ready for like immediate launch, but it's probably not infinitely fast.

2577
03:28:27,415 --> 03:28:46,536
It's not that far away. It's pretty close. Sorry, one second. I'm not sure. There's more to if you go to drivechain.info for slash releases, you can download a lot of this software already and run it on the run it on the on the testnet.

2578
03:28:46,615 --> 03:28:48,615
So it's, it's, it's out there already.

2579
03:28:50,615 --> 03:28:52,615
Nice.

2580
03:28:52,615 --> 03:29:09,576
And of course, like, once that actually happened, probably you'd have a number of enthusiasts who would just start getting to work copying and pasting. So there's like a, like a template to make it even easier for people to just copy altcoins.

2581
03:29:09,576 --> 03:29:39,496
And so using the sidechain template, I imagine within now the miners would have to like a lot the sidechain slots, but as far as just building them, I'm sure I'm sure there'd be, there'd probably be quite a few dozen more within, you know, just a few days as people kind of copy the whatever their favorite or maybe their least favorite shitcoin is.

2582
03:29:39,576 --> 03:30:09,095
Oh, there's also trainchain. I can't forget about trainchain. That's one that's like a, like an old meme coin made by the famous Mikeinspace, the Twitter personality Mikeinspace made this trainchain, which is basically just a copy of Bitcoin, but it's about trains. Like, I guess like, you know, Dogecoin is about Doge and trainchain is about trains.

2583
03:30:09,576 --> 03:30:31,576
I don't know if anybody else wants to, wants to come up and discuss anything. You don't even have to ask any question. Obviously, I can just stop talking and anyone else can just take the stage if they want to talk.

2584
03:30:41,536 --> 03:30:43,316
Thank you, I'll help them.

2585
03:30:43,856 --> 03:30:45,536
I want to come up with a good question.

2586
03:30:47,476 --> 03:30:51,816
I've seen so many by like feature and project and

2587
03:30:51,816 --> 03:30:57,256
it merge and it takes years to see actual

2588
03:30:57,466 --> 03:30:58,826
use cases use it.

2589
03:31:02,086 --> 03:31:06,886
Yes, of course, but the whole point of Drivechain is just that

2590
03:31:08,426 --> 03:31:13,186
we're not spinning it up from scratch, we're building it on top of Bitcoin,

2591
03:31:14,206 --> 03:31:17,106
thankfully still has some usage.

2592
03:31:22,076 --> 03:31:28,076
Although sadly, not as many paying customers for block space as

2593
03:31:28,076 --> 03:31:29,236
Ethereum, it seems.

2594
03:31:34,236 --> 03:31:35,056
Hi, guys.

2595
03:31:37,286 --> 03:31:39,666
Hello. Hi, Hristian.

2596
03:31:39,986 --> 03:31:41,346
Thank you. Thank you for coming.

2597
03:31:42,046 --> 03:31:43,126
Yeah, you're welcome.

2598
03:31:45,426 --> 03:31:50,506
I want to add something to it.

2599
03:31:50,506 --> 03:31:54,606
all the time what you were saying is great.

2600
03:31:54,986 --> 03:31:57,066
And thank you for explaining everything.

2601
03:31:57,696 --> 03:32:03,376
I wanted to compare something between why Drivechain is needed

2602
03:32:03,376 --> 03:32:08,596
now and I think it's a big mistake that it's not enabled even earlier on Bitcoin

2603
03:32:08,596 --> 03:32:13,616
because I even tweeted this that Ethereum, for example,

2604
03:32:14,556 --> 03:32:17,026
they try something else now to do and scale

2605
03:32:17,026 --> 03:32:18,006
scale and actually they,

2606
03:32:19,206 --> 03:32:24,666
you know, for me it's looking as a copy of the Drivechain concept, you know, if they

2607
03:32:24,666 --> 03:32:29,506
copied or took, don't know, it's like with their latest

2608
03:32:29,506 --> 03:32:31,826
kind of

2609
03:32:31,826 --> 03:32:36,916
EAP to kind

2610
03:32:36,916 --> 03:32:42,216
reduce the gas and increase the scalability with

2611
03:32:42,216 --> 03:32:48,056
using bundle transactions sending as one

2612
03:32:50,196 --> 03:32:54,636
and don't know you know about that Austin.

2613
03:32:55,216 --> 03:32:56,806
It's a

2614
03:32:57,166 --> 03:33:02,886
mean, it's a ERC, now it's ERC, it's

2615
03:33:02,886 --> 03:33:05,626
already proof dating, ERC 4337,

2616
03:33:06,906 --> 03:33:12,846
where the users sending transactions will be, between will

2617
03:33:12,846 --> 03:33:13,586
be a bundler.

2618
03:33:13,586 --> 03:33:16,686
And actually I recognize that as a you know,

2619
03:33:16,756 --> 03:33:22,736
the Drivechain node, bundles the transactions and as a

2620
03:33:22,736 --> 03:33:28,656
bundle in one hash is sent to the main Ethereum chain, which is like, you

2621
03:33:28,656 --> 03:33:34,496
know, kind of very interesting to see that the other

2622
03:33:34,496 --> 03:33:36,496
blockchains or old coins try

2623
03:33:36,586 --> 03:33:42,446
to, how did that the bundler is prevented

2624
03:33:42,446 --> 03:33:44,026
from stealing the money?

2625
03:33:45,206 --> 03:33:49,706
That's the question, because, know, I see that as a very centralized way of doing

2626
03:33:49,706 --> 03:33:55,126
things, because it's it's no kind of maybe is I didn't went

2627
03:33:55,126 --> 03:33:56,476
very deep in the,

2628
03:33:57,636 --> 03:34:02,576
but it's kind of probably like a relay or, you know,

2629
03:34:03,536 --> 03:34:06,956
somebody who will offer that kind of service to do.

2630
03:34:07,476 --> 03:34:11,296
you know, it's kind of like centralized way of doing things.

2631
03:34:11,696 --> 03:34:16,276
this is very, very also important to kind of compare

2632
03:34:16,366 --> 03:34:22,086
with Drivechains, that Drivechains are completely trustless and

2633
03:34:22,086 --> 03:34:26,206
respect the decentralization of Bitcoin, etc.

2634
03:34:27,906 --> 03:34:33,906
But also, I know you talked about from where

2635
03:34:33,906 --> 03:34:36,166
the adoption or the demand

2636
03:34:36,256 --> 03:34:42,176
for Drivechain will come, think besides everything what you said, agree.

2637
03:34:43,056 --> 03:34:48,516
I think that Drivechain will have demand from the businesses.

2638
03:34:48,856 --> 03:34:49,616
Why I'm saying this?

2639
03:34:49,896 --> 03:34:55,896
Because for a long time I follow what the businesses are doing and

2640
03:34:56,806 --> 03:34:59,506
how they approach blockchain technologies.

2641
03:35:01,406 --> 03:35:06,646
I know that many companies, even in the spaces, were talking that they try

2642
03:35:06,646 --> 03:35:12,026
to kind of use the Bitcoin for business

2643
03:35:12,026 --> 03:35:16,026
related stuff like digital infrastructure or

2644
03:35:16,036 --> 03:35:17,456
stuff like that.

2645
03:35:17,596 --> 03:35:23,356
that's a very, for me, kind of interesting niche

2646
03:35:23,356 --> 03:35:27,956
of maybe will be big, I believe will be big.

2647
03:35:30,116 --> 03:35:35,816
And Drivechain is a perfect solution for that because they can create Drivechain for

2648
03:35:36,546 --> 03:35:39,726
I believe that they can create it for anything,

2649
03:35:41,506 --> 03:35:47,266
even for supply chain, accounting,

2650
03:35:48,906 --> 03:35:50,346
all sorts of stuff.

2651
03:35:50,346 --> 03:35:55,786
So there will be a volume and, you know, we'll be on

2652
03:35:55,816 --> 03:35:59,976
Bitcoin, which is the most important to use at the centralized security.

2653
03:36:01,076 --> 03:36:04,856
I mean, it would make sense because if they're going to do, if anyone's going to build

2654
03:36:04,856 --> 03:36:10,636
any infrastructure on a public chain and drivechains

2655
03:36:10,636 --> 03:36:15,706
are available, then it would just make sense

2656
03:36:15,746 --> 03:36:21,026
to build on Drivechain because the security of the Bitcoin network is

2657
03:36:21,026 --> 03:36:26,906
superior. Yeah, but do you think they can do a private chain

2658
03:36:26,906 --> 03:36:32,706
or a chain that is kind of not

2659
03:36:32,706 --> 03:36:34,946
open for, I mean, sidechain?

2660
03:36:36,636 --> 03:36:40,896
I'm not the one to answer this exactly, because this is like a real edge case that I

2661
03:36:40,896 --> 03:36:42,416
don't think I've thought too much about.

2662
03:36:42,696 --> 03:36:46,336
I believe that technically that would be possible.

2663
03:36:47,996 --> 03:36:53,816
I mean, I guess you could just propose a chain where it kind

2664
03:36:53,816 --> 03:36:55,436
of, I guess the way

2665
03:36:55,486 --> 03:37:00,946
you would do that is would just basically limit the who can validate

2666
03:37:00,946 --> 03:37:05,706
and you could add all sorts of rules that you know there would be privileged

2667
03:37:05,706 --> 03:37:09,646
participants that can freeze funds and whatever else.

2668
03:37:09,646 --> 03:37:15,366
I think that difficulty would maybe would be in getting enough miners to

2669
03:37:15,376 --> 03:37:19,356
approve of allocating that chain a slot.

2670
03:37:21,896 --> 03:37:24,376
But I guess it might be possible.

2671
03:37:25,236 --> 03:37:31,136
Yeah. Yeah. Just, you know, from a technical standpoint, because probably they will

2672
03:37:31,136 --> 03:37:35,266
not use any kind of, you know, they will not try to do any

2673
03:37:35,566 --> 03:37:38,906
token or coin or stuff like that.

2674
03:37:39,526 --> 03:37:45,466
I'm looking at Drivechains as a, you know, I eliminate this

2675
03:37:45,466 --> 03:37:51,146
buzz of people saying, oh, there will be shitcoins and stuff like that, because it's

2676
03:37:51,146 --> 03:37:54,906
very incredible idea that, you know, will bring something

2677
03:37:55,156 --> 03:38:01,056
very valuable and opportunity for many many kind of innovation

2678
03:38:01,056 --> 03:38:03,756
to be done on Drivechains.

2679
03:38:04,256 --> 03:38:09,936
as you said and Paul said and everybody is saying that the

2680
03:38:09,936 --> 03:38:12,076
main chain is untouched.

2681
03:38:12,716 --> 03:38:14,936
It's a small block, it's sitting as it

2682
03:38:15,046 --> 03:38:19,286
is, that's a perfect match, I think.

2683
03:38:20,326 --> 03:38:25,186
Yeah, you know what, think now that I thought about it more, maybe it could happen if

2684
03:38:25,186 --> 03:38:30,726
the private, whoever wants this private chain basically

2685
03:38:30,726 --> 03:38:33,406
just pays enough.

2686
03:38:33,406 --> 03:38:34,936
but I don't know mean that's

2687
03:38:34,936 --> 03:38:37,216
that's, that's, it's, yeah, I'm not really sure.

2688
03:38:38,296 --> 03:38:41,556
But yeah, I agree with you on your, your other points.

2689
03:38:41,916 --> 03:38:42,356
Yeah.

2690
03:38:45,076 --> 03:38:50,696
Yeah, or maybe we'll be, we'll be a sidechain where, you know, we'll be created for

2691
03:38:50,696 --> 03:38:54,826
this kind of things, maybe, you know, so they can, they can

2692
03:38:54,826 --> 03:38:58,526
mean,

2693
03:38:59,766 --> 03:39:03,066
that's yeah, but when people hear private,

2694
03:39:04,326 --> 03:39:08,966
cannot have a public,

2695
03:39:10,986 --> 03:39:14,716
using public blockchain for data that is

2696
03:39:14,796 --> 03:39:17,556
sensitive, mean, that's obvious.

2697
03:39:20,776 --> 03:39:26,636
I mean, something maybe we should, it's something we can, I'll discuss and maybe

2698
03:39:26,636 --> 03:39:32,336
we can kind of bring this up intentionally on the next spaces or have someone

2699
03:39:32,336 --> 03:39:34,376
else discuss

2700
03:39:41,946 --> 03:39:47,826
I don't know if you follow, I follow another very similar concept of

2701
03:39:47,826 --> 03:39:53,346
Drivechain, is Altcoin, it's UTXO based blockchain.

2702
03:39:55,516 --> 03:40:00,976
You know, I don't want to mention any names here, but I'm I think there

2703
03:40:00,976 --> 03:40:06,036
was one of, what was the one, Qtome or Quantome or whatever?

2704
03:40:06,256 --> 03:40:08,796
No, it's It's Avalanche.

2705
03:40:09,456 --> 03:40:11,076
Oh, Avalanche, yeah, yeah.

2706
03:40:11,116 --> 03:40:14,256
That's it. and Avalanche came out exactly

2707
03:40:14,386 --> 03:40:20,006
after the block wars and they created, I think, Bitcoin, ABC, the

2708
03:40:20,006 --> 03:40:25,726
founder created later on Avalanche, contains the UTXO

2709
03:40:25,726 --> 03:40:27,846
-based settlement layer.

2710
03:40:28,206 --> 03:40:29,846
They're like a multi -chain.

2711
03:40:30,246 --> 03:40:34,276
They have a settlement layer, they have a staking

2712
03:40:34,536 --> 03:40:38,456
layer for validation and stuff, and another EVM.

2713
03:40:39,136 --> 03:40:44,996
But on top of that, they have code subnets which are similar to

2714
03:40:44,996 --> 03:40:50,556
sidechains. whoever wants to create their

2715
03:40:50,556 --> 03:40:53,936
blockchain, they can be public, private, customizable,

2716
03:40:54,166 --> 03:40:55,806
fully and stuff like that.

2717
03:40:56,146 --> 03:41:02,046
this kind of EVM based, they extend and can be connected to any

2718
03:41:02,046 --> 03:41:06,906
other chain, can be utilized any other VM or script.

2719
03:41:08,506 --> 03:41:14,056
So it's kind of I mean, what I'm trying to bring is

2720
03:41:14,116 --> 03:41:20,076
to bring this information so people realize that something is

2721
03:41:20,076 --> 03:41:25,856
happening around Bitcoin and if Drivechain is not enabled, know, the things

2722
03:41:25,856 --> 03:41:30,296
will go away from, you know, to other chains.

2723
03:41:30,756 --> 03:41:33,946
I will use a kind of metaphorical

2724
03:41:34,366 --> 03:41:40,266
comparison. if you buy something, know, and then

2725
03:41:40,266 --> 03:41:45,526
you discover something is better later on, you know, you say, oh, I bought now, I spend

2726
03:41:45,526 --> 03:41:49,786
my money, so I stay with this, you know, so it's kind of like a...

2727
03:41:49,786 --> 03:41:53,836
Yeah, think that would be called like the

2728
03:41:54,476 --> 03:41:56,096
cost fallacy.

2729
03:41:59,436 --> 03:42:03,996
Meaning like, so that's the idea like, let's say you, well, it's like perfectly in

2730
03:42:03,996 --> 03:42:09,776
crypto, bought some shit coin and then it went down 95 % and you thought, oh,

2731
03:42:10,616 --> 03:42:13,436
well, I've already lost this much.

2732
03:42:13,436 --> 03:42:13,676
was

2733
03:42:13,726 --> 03:42:18,806
the point? Meanwhile, you still could save 5 % of your money, but you think, or like

2734
03:42:18,806 --> 03:42:23,786
you've worked, you know, you worked on building a project for a year and then you

2735
03:42:23,786 --> 03:42:28,846
realize that it's not going to work or it's not going to come up to spec or whatever.

2736
03:42:30,506 --> 03:42:33,526
And you know, and then you say, well, I better just keep going

2737
03:42:33,616 --> 03:42:36,816
and finish it anyway, even though something like that.

2738
03:42:37,656 --> 03:42:43,356
Well, have here the basically the lead

2739
03:42:43,356 --> 03:42:48,636
sidechain builder, one of the co -founders

2740
03:42:48,636 --> 03:42:51,696
of the LayerTwo Labs company, CryptAxe.

2741
03:42:52,616 --> 03:42:53,506
He's basically

2742
03:42:53,506 --> 03:42:59,126
Basically the one who's built hip 300 and done the code uh to date And uh,

2743
03:42:59,406 --> 03:43:01,886
so you have any questions from him?

2744
03:43:01,986 --> 03:43:05,826
Yeah. Sorry. I just joined in I heard the end of a question But I didn't hear the whole

2745
03:43:05,826 --> 03:43:08,666
question if you want me to try to answer it

2746
03:43:09,866 --> 03:43:13,396
The most interesting one of the last few minutes would be can

2747
03:43:13,676 --> 03:43:19,416
is it possible to build a blockchain on top of

2748
03:43:19,416 --> 03:43:20,636
Bitcoin with BIP300?

2749
03:43:21,816 --> 03:43:27,376
Yeah, you could do that because the sidechain implementation is completely up to the

2750
03:43:27,376 --> 03:43:32,216
sidechain implementer. You could have like a Chase Bank sidechain that they have to

2751
03:43:32,216 --> 03:43:33,286
approve every transaction

2752
03:43:33,426 --> 03:43:37,666
on, have to approve the withdrawals, everything like that.

2753
03:43:40,246 --> 03:43:43,226
Yeah, actually, you want to say it can be customizable.

2754
03:43:43,466 --> 03:43:43,706
Yeah,

2755
03:43:45,046 --> 03:43:50,586
Yeah. Yeah, that's a very, very good point to, you know, to when,

2756
03:43:51,446 --> 03:43:53,176
we have even, you know, talking

2757
03:43:53,396 --> 03:43:57,096
with people to have that mind.

2758
03:43:57,256 --> 03:43:58,896
Yeah, and I think I agree.

2759
03:43:58,936 --> 03:43:59,656
you for the information.

2760
03:43:59,856 --> 03:44:04,556
The issue with that would be incentivizing miners to activate that and mine it.

2761
03:44:04,776 --> 03:44:07,436
And I heard a suggestion that they might just pay them to do it.

2762
03:44:07,656 --> 03:44:08,676
And I agree with that.

2763
03:44:08,716 --> 03:44:10,076
I think that that's how it would work.

2764
03:44:11,796 --> 03:44:12,696
Yeah, yeah, obviously.

2765
03:44:13,066 --> 03:44:18,866
because even if the transaction, let's say, I'm the miner who wants to mine that

2766
03:44:18,866 --> 03:44:24,166
sidechain and nobody wants to mine, and I can't mine the first block or second block, I

2767
03:44:24,166 --> 03:44:29,006
will mine on the third block or fourth block or whatever, Like, it will be longer, but

2768
03:44:29,006 --> 03:44:30,526
again, it will be mined.

2769
03:44:31,086 --> 03:44:32,956
Yeah, and I think there's some cool

2770
03:44:32,976 --> 03:44:35,976
ideas that could exist with private sidechains like that.

2771
03:44:37,056 --> 03:44:42,236
I'm personally more interested in the totally decentralized ones, with Drivechain,

2772
03:44:42,336 --> 03:44:46,156
everybody can get what they want at the same time without having to agree with each

2773
03:44:46,156 --> 03:44:49,736
other. And you don't have to use the private sidechain if you don't want to.

2774
03:44:50,096 --> 03:44:52,596
Like, I probably won't, but other people can.

2775
03:44:54,526 --> 03:44:58,886
Yeah, I was just talking about, let's say, don't know, accounting

2776
03:44:58,886 --> 03:45:04,246
or supply chain or something like that,

2777
03:45:04,686 --> 03:45:10,606
you know, the sensitive data, it's not kind of, you know, they can be private,

2778
03:45:10,866 --> 03:45:12,586
but again, they have the

2779
03:45:12,736 --> 03:45:15,016
decentralized security from Bitcoin itself.

2780
03:45:15,716 --> 03:45:16,956
it's kind of, you know.

2781
03:45:17,756 --> 03:45:18,396
Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

2782
03:45:19,996 --> 03:45:25,896
companies love to use Bitcoin's security because it's the most secure

2783
03:45:25,896 --> 03:45:30,496
chain. So they'd be able to say that they're using the power of Bitcoin for their

2784
03:45:30,496 --> 03:45:31,296
private sidechain.

2785
03:45:31,836 --> 03:45:32,616
So I think that that

2786
03:45:32,626 --> 03:45:35,566
would be a big, that'd be big for them and for Bitcoin.

2787
03:45:36,286 --> 03:45:38,106
So it's a mutually beneficial thing.

2788
03:45:39,526 --> 03:45:45,226
Yeah, exactly. just a few days ago, read that, let's

2789
03:45:45,226 --> 03:45:51,166
say, one stock exchange want to use blockchain for probably their

2790
03:45:51,166 --> 03:45:52,516
exchange settlement or,

2791
03:45:53,256 --> 03:45:58,996
know, so for example, they can create sidechain and if they can do private, it's a

2792
03:45:58,996 --> 03:46:00,516
perfect solution for them.

2793
03:46:00,916 --> 03:46:02,456
Yeah, could see blockchain.

2794
03:46:03,956 --> 03:46:09,796
Yeah, but Bitcoin will get volume transactions and I mean through Drivechain, but again

2795
03:46:09,796 --> 03:46:10,936
goes to Bitcoin.

2796
03:46:12,586 --> 03:46:14,226
Suudonim, did you have a question?

2797
03:46:16,586 --> 03:46:22,206
Yeah, there's a technical aspect of Drivechain, I don't understand yet, how do

2798
03:46:22,206 --> 03:46:28,086
miners on Bitcoin chain are incentivized not to reverse

2799
03:46:28,086 --> 03:46:32,296
like many blocks of the sidechain, is are the key that

2800
03:46:32,556 --> 03:46:35,896
they collect being withheld.

2801
03:46:36,896 --> 03:46:42,816
If they were to reorg many blocks, they lose the sum of

2802
03:46:42,816 --> 03:46:43,636
all these blocks?

2803
03:46:44,896 --> 03:46:45,536
does that work?

2804
03:46:46,696 --> 03:46:51,916
The sidechain reorganization is independent of mainchain reorganization.

2805
03:46:52,406 --> 03:46:57,886
It'd be possible for main chain miners to collect fees of a sidechain reorg

2806
03:46:57,886 --> 03:47:01,186
without even knowing that the reorg is happening.

2807
03:47:04,506 --> 03:47:06,126
Sorry for your detail.

2808
03:47:07,266 --> 03:47:12,076
Well, the main chain doesn't need to reorg in order for the sidechain

2809
03:47:12,136 --> 03:47:17,756
to reorg. So they can continue to collect transaction fees while the sidechain is

2810
03:47:17,756 --> 03:47:18,536
reorging.

2811
03:47:20,116 --> 03:47:26,056
But my issue is with finality because with Bitprint, have a

2812
03:47:26,056 --> 03:47:31,216
huge incentive to push the block as soon as possible and they have a capital invested

2813
03:47:31,216 --> 03:47:31,966
in my equipment.

2814
03:47:33,166 --> 03:47:38,846
But if I'm a regular participant on the sidechain and the

2815
03:47:38,846 --> 03:47:43,706
drivechain, and I want to make a big transaction, let's say, a million dollars,

2816
03:47:44,846 --> 03:47:50,806
like how am I supposed to assess that my one million dollar is not

2817
03:47:51,856 --> 03:47:57,696
big enough incentive to pay a on the site to reorg it, for example.

2818
03:48:01,376 --> 03:48:03,576
it's the same on Bitcoin mainchain.

2819
03:48:03,976 --> 03:48:08,756
The sidechain miners have to continue to extend the valid chain to collect fees.

2820
03:48:09,396 --> 03:48:11,746
There's a maturity for the

2821
03:48:11,746 --> 03:48:13,326
the payouts that they receive.

2822
03:48:16,166 --> 03:48:21,166
the end of the day, it a miner on the Bitcoin mainchain that

2823
03:48:21,166 --> 03:48:23,646
decides to reorg stuff?

2824
03:48:25,146 --> 03:48:30,846
The sidechain block creators can reorg the sidechain without the mainchain

2825
03:48:30,846 --> 03:48:31,506
cooperating.

2826
03:48:33,776 --> 03:48:36,396
But that just seems worse to me.

2827
03:48:38,116 --> 03:48:44,036
Because let's say, let's say send a

2828
03:48:44,036 --> 03:48:45,616
million dollar on a drivechain.

2829
03:48:46,096 --> 03:48:50,896
And then on a drivechain, have like 30 equivalent block of confirmation.

2830
03:48:54,786 --> 03:49:00,466
So to reorg, the sidechain 30 blocks would require 30 mainchain blocks also

2831
03:49:00,466 --> 03:49:03,046
committing to that sidechain chain.

2832
03:49:05,966 --> 03:49:11,266
in a reorganization, your transaction will not disappear or

2833
03:49:11,416 --> 03:49:12,956
anything, it will just move blocks.

2834
03:49:14,096 --> 03:49:19,556
if any time a mainstream reorganization has happened, the Bitcoin miners re -include the

2835
03:49:19,556 --> 03:49:24,636
transactions. The people's transactions aren't actually affected.

2836
03:49:25,616 --> 03:49:29,396
No, but that's assuming that there's another end of the transaction that is not

2837
03:49:29,396 --> 03:49:29,976
reversible.

2838
03:49:31,866 --> 03:49:34,526
It's not like there's like a

2839
03:49:36,206 --> 03:49:39,906
Financial incentive to To reverse a transaction.

2840
03:49:40,106 --> 03:49:45,706
Let's say I just gave away the car and I took took off with the car and now I The

2841
03:49:45,706 --> 03:49:46,926
Bitcoin go back in his wallet

2842
03:49:52,776 --> 03:49:57,856
Well, the miners on the sidechain can't take your money from you if like you still

2843
03:49:57,856 --> 03:49:59,376
control the coins with your keys

2844
03:50:00,856 --> 03:50:06,476
No, no, but let's say I sold my car I got the coins I gave my car and now the coin

2845
03:50:06,476 --> 03:50:09,576
also go back to the sender

2846
03:50:16,566 --> 03:50:22,466
So I to wait a long time for another I don't think you mean I can't

2847
03:50:22,466 --> 03:50:25,366
wrap my head yet around - The sidechains - How can I assist?

2848
03:50:26,226 --> 03:50:27,906
The sidechains can I assist the client?

2849
03:50:28,906 --> 03:50:30,866
In order for the sidechain to make blocks,

2850
03:50:31,076 --> 03:50:35,636
it has to include a special output in the Coinbase of a mainchain block.

2851
03:50:37,036 --> 03:50:40,516
So it's got a 10 -minute average block time just like the mainchain.

2852
03:50:41,156 --> 03:50:45,956
There can't be more than a one -block reorg without multiple mainchain blocks.

2853
03:50:46,336 --> 03:50:50,296
You can't pay somebody to reorg back 10 blocks or anything like that.

2854
03:51:00,186 --> 03:51:02,546
I guess I'm visual, I don't get it.

2855
03:51:05,966 --> 03:51:10,646
I'm like, what I think of like, finally, it's Bitcoin, I'm thinking

2856
03:51:10,756 --> 03:51:13,476
of all the miners that have equipment that they don't want to lose.

2857
03:51:13,676 --> 03:51:16,156
if they change the rule, would devalue the equipment.

2858
03:51:16,856 --> 03:51:22,236
And also, there's this much energy spent in one block, and then on two block, three

2859
03:51:22,236 --> 03:51:28,116
block. And then I know they can't reorg without losing all

2860
03:51:28,116 --> 03:51:30,156
the future fee.

2861
03:51:30,646 --> 03:51:30,926
but,

2862
03:51:32,546 --> 03:51:35,466
and risk like nobody's going to follow the block.

2863
03:51:35,826 --> 03:51:37,906
They have to have 51%.

2864
03:51:37,906 --> 03:51:43,426
Yeah, there are times where With Drivechain, Bitcoin miners, they don't care about

2865
03:51:43,426 --> 03:51:46,926
anything of like what is legit on the drivechain.

2866
03:51:47,426 --> 03:51:50,526
They don't need fee driven, so whoever pays

2867
03:51:50,536 --> 03:51:55,416
more fee and if I have a million dollars on the line on the Drivechain and they collude

2868
03:51:55,416 --> 03:52:00,536
with miners, then that could be like, maybe I would need to wait like three months to

2869
03:52:00,536 --> 03:52:02,776
have final, that's equivalent finality on

2870
03:52:04,296 --> 03:52:06,676
a Drivechain. don't know, depending on the amount.

2871
03:52:07,696 --> 03:52:09,876
Because there's no equipment, there's less at stake.

2872
03:52:11,386 --> 03:52:13,086
there's the Bitcoin mining equipment.

2873
03:52:13,326 --> 03:52:17,366
It's using Bitcoin mining proof of work to move the chain forward.

2874
03:52:18,826 --> 03:52:24,786
And they're also sacrificing all future BMM income and the withdrawal transaction fees.

2875
03:52:26,186 --> 03:52:30,316
Not to mention, it's likely they're sacrificing some

2876
03:52:30,416 --> 03:52:36,356
value of Bitcoin in and of itself because it's likely to have a negative market

2877
03:52:36,356 --> 03:52:38,656
reaction to any sort of shenanigans like that.

2878
03:52:39,596 --> 03:52:45,116
miners are actually the most exposed to the Bitcoin price because

2879
03:52:45,116 --> 03:52:50,196
they're the

2880
03:52:50,206 --> 03:52:53,686
most kind of capital put up,

2881
03:52:55,426 --> 03:53:01,086
is a liquid they're buying in very large quantities kind

2882
03:53:01,086 --> 03:53:04,586
of forward Bitcoin, like deliverable forwards.

2883
03:53:04,986 --> 03:53:10,096
the miners almost are usually the most exposed stakeholder to

2884
03:53:10,176 --> 03:53:15,236
the price of Bitcoin of all stakeholders, more so than even a Hodler,

2885
03:53:15,456 --> 03:53:17,676
microstrategies or whatever.

2886
03:53:19,516 --> 03:53:25,396
Yeah, so if I do transaction on this Drivechain, I guess I have a big incentive to also

2887
03:53:25,396 --> 03:53:29,986
be aware if there's any real work done by validating my own

2888
03:53:30,046 --> 03:53:33,266
chain, by running my own node.

2889
03:53:36,166 --> 03:53:40,966
You can easily check up Block Explorer if you don't want to do that.

2890
03:53:45,066 --> 03:53:49,466
I also think that you should come back and ask the question to Paul next time that he's

2891
03:53:49,466 --> 03:53:49,766
here,

2892
03:53:49,876 --> 03:53:52,796
next Friday. I'll do some more research on one.

2893
03:53:53,496 --> 03:53:55,036
I thought maybe I can chime in.

2894
03:53:55,796 --> 03:53:58,416
pseudonym, what happens if this happens on the base layer?

2895
03:53:58,816 --> 03:54:04,296
Let's say, you you are accepting a Bitcoin transaction and it gets reorg.

2896
03:54:05,616 --> 03:54:08,436
There's nothing you can really do if that happens, right, on the base chain.

2897
03:54:08,736 --> 03:54:09,756
But there's a reason why it

2898
03:54:09,766 --> 03:54:12,506
doesn't happen. So why do you think it does not happen on the base layer?

2899
03:54:18,346 --> 03:54:22,186
Because the miner did build on the largest chain.

2900
03:54:22,186 --> 03:54:27,366
But the miners want that right if the miners want they can reorg

2901
03:54:27,366 --> 03:54:29,626
any any receiving transaction that you

2902
03:54:29,656 --> 03:54:35,436
get. Yeah, but the main difference is that the electricity is

2903
03:54:35,436 --> 03:54:39,796
already expensed and the equipment is owned and exists.

2904
03:54:41,396 --> 03:54:44,156
if Bitcoin didn't have that,

2905
03:54:46,096 --> 03:54:49,116
so if someone paid them 20 million,

2906
03:54:49,686 --> 03:54:50,926
they would pay them 20 million.

2907
03:54:51,306 --> 03:54:53,326
It's not economically viable for them to do that.

2908
03:54:53,466 --> 03:54:58,046
But what if they were to send several thousand Bitcoins, let's say, to an exchange,

2909
03:54:58,626 --> 03:55:00,986
sell it and then reorg that transaction?

2910
03:55:01,886 --> 03:55:02,806
They could do that, right?

2911
03:55:05,386 --> 03:55:09,306
No, because they can just make up hashing par as with Drivechain.

2912
03:55:10,156 --> 03:55:11,636
can just pay more fee, apparently.

2913
03:55:11,876 --> 03:55:14,756
I'm not saying in Drivechain, just saying on the base layer right now.

2914
03:55:15,396 --> 03:55:16,216
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

2915
03:55:16,316 --> 03:55:17,856
You can't just make up the hash power.

2916
03:55:18,676 --> 03:55:24,396
If miners have more than 50 % collusion, like let's say 70 % of

2917
03:55:24,396 --> 03:55:25,676
hashrate together, mining pools,

2918
03:55:27,036 --> 03:55:27,996
more than 50%.

2919
03:55:27,996 --> 03:55:29,256
If they wanted to, they can

2920
03:55:29,326 --> 03:55:34,646
send Bitcoins to an exchange, sell them, and then reorg that transaction.

2921
03:55:35,846 --> 03:55:38,026
Yeah, and then they will lose all the equipment.

2922
03:55:38,166 --> 03:55:41,626
Well, they're going to own their equipment.

2923
03:55:42,366 --> 03:55:44,966
They'll still own the Bitcoin because they reorg it.

2924
03:55:45,966 --> 03:55:49,026
And they'll potentially maybe even get the cash

2925
03:55:49,216 --> 03:55:50,116
out on the exchange.

2926
03:55:50,456 --> 03:55:52,376
Maybe not. Maybe that will be hard for exchange.

2927
03:55:52,416 --> 03:55:54,376
Yeah, but they own billions in hardware.

2928
03:55:55,996 --> 03:56:01,856
No exchange is going to accept one confirmation for a billion dollars if they're

2929
03:56:01,856 --> 03:56:03,496
aware that there's some centralization.

2930
03:56:03,636 --> 03:56:06,836
correct. But if you have more than 50 % of the hashrate, it doesn't matter how many

2931
03:56:06,836 --> 03:56:08,356
confirmations you can still reorg it.

2932
03:56:08,496 --> 03:56:09,106
you have, let's

2933
03:56:09,146 --> 03:56:13,426
let's say 70 % of the hashrate colluding, can reorg 10 blocks, you can reorg 50 blocks,

2934
03:56:13,626 --> 03:56:14,866
can really reorg 100 blocks.

2935
03:56:14,966 --> 03:56:18,186
It doesn't matter, it's arbitrary because you have more hashrate than anybody else.

2936
03:56:18,526 --> 03:56:22,286
So you can eventually reorg the whole chain as far, you know, it will take time to go

2937
03:56:22,286 --> 03:56:26,286
farther back. But eventually you can reorg, you know, even 100 blocks, a week worth of

2938
03:56:26,286 --> 03:56:28,996
blocks, right? As long as you have more majority of the chain,

2939
03:56:29,076 --> 03:56:33,736
right so they can do it No, but if this happened the Bitcoin does not exist

2940
03:56:38,296 --> 03:56:40,156
I'm asking why it doesn't happen.

2941
03:56:40,156 --> 03:56:44,216
Well, so I would say it doesn't happen happen is because economically They they're

2942
03:56:44,216 --> 03:56:48,176
they're not incentivized to do that because then they're hurting like Bitcoin and

2943
03:56:48,176 --> 03:56:48,886
they're hurting like you

2944
03:56:49,066 --> 03:56:50,246
their hardware.

2945
03:56:52,226 --> 03:56:54,886
They're hurting their future revenue.

2946
03:56:56,886 --> 03:57:01,706
I think that's similar to is kind of securing the Drivechain.

2947
03:57:02,206 --> 03:57:06,606
If the Drivechain is successful, they're getting future revenue from Most likely, if

2948
03:57:06,606 --> 03:57:08,706
it's successful, they're going to be getting way more future revenue

2949
03:57:08,776 --> 03:57:10,716
from a Drivechain than from the base layer.

2950
03:57:11,636 --> 03:57:14,856
Because the Drivechain can scale more and several Drivechains can scale even more.

2951
03:57:15,336 --> 03:57:19,616
can, you know, like if you think about it, it can be thousands of times more fees that

2952
03:57:19,616 --> 03:57:22,556
they're getting than on the base layer if Drivechains are successful.

2953
03:57:23,116 --> 03:57:27,336
Now, if they try to mess with Drivechains, either by stealing or reorging or whatever,

2954
03:57:27,836 --> 03:57:28,666
they're in a

2955
03:57:28,666 --> 03:57:33,446
way making The trust assumptions of drivechains lower now less people will trust them

2956
03:57:33,446 --> 03:57:36,846
most likely, you know Everybody will not trust it because you know, they're starting to

2957
03:57:36,846 --> 03:57:40,686
be shenanigans on that side So now they're losing all of that revenue and if they're

2958
03:57:40,686 --> 03:57:44,626
losing all that revenue Then they don't have an economic incentive to do that Just like

2959
03:57:44,626 --> 03:57:48,126
they don't have an economic incentive to mess with the base layer, which they can we're

2960
03:57:48,126 --> 03:57:48,506
which we

2961
03:57:50,276 --> 03:57:54,756
So, the same way, they can do it on Drivechain, wouldn't want to, because the fees that

2962
03:57:54,756 --> 03:57:57,456
they're generating from a Drivechain would actually be even more than they would be

2963
03:57:57,456 --> 03:57:58,656
getting on the base layer.

2964
03:57:59,776 --> 03:58:02,716
But it's a good question, and I definitely think you should ask about it when you see

2965
03:58:02,716 --> 03:58:03,156
it next week.

2966
03:58:04,476 --> 03:58:08,356
But they have to validate and run that 5 -chain node to even

2967
03:58:08,446 --> 03:58:10,566
be aware whether they are reordering or not.

2968
03:58:11,206 --> 03:58:16,086
this, because I've heard many times that they're going with whoever pays the most fees.

2969
03:58:16,466 --> 03:58:20,946
so a miner, if they only do that, they might reorg by accident.

2970
03:58:20,946 --> 03:58:22,846
Yes, if you can't really...

2971
03:58:23,006 --> 03:58:25,886
just one block wouldn't matter because then...

2972
03:58:25,886 --> 03:58:28,326
What happens is everybody's gonna be like, hey, that's

2973
03:58:28,336 --> 03:58:29,616
the incorrect hash, right?

2974
03:58:30,476 --> 03:58:33,476
Because everybody on the Drivechain, whoever is running it will know that that's

2975
03:58:33,476 --> 03:58:33,936
incorrect.

2976
03:58:38,056 --> 03:58:39,916
So they can't really say that it's by mistake.

2977
03:58:40,196 --> 03:58:41,156
You'll be like, nope, that's incorrect.

2978
03:58:41,316 --> 03:58:42,356
Everybody will know that's incorrect.

2979
03:58:42,616 --> 03:58:43,496
That's not the longest chain.

2980
03:58:43,696 --> 03:58:44,276
then, you know,

2981
03:58:45,956 --> 03:58:47,596
then you can hear them up and be like, hey, why'd you do this?

2982
03:58:47,656 --> 03:58:48,136
This is not the

2983
03:58:48,226 --> 03:58:49,826
longest chain. should build off this chain.

2984
03:58:50,986 --> 03:58:52,546
But it is a good question.

2985
03:58:53,366 --> 03:58:55,446
just thought I'd throw in my share.

2986
03:58:55,766 --> 03:58:57,086
I definitely don't have all the answers.

2987
03:58:59,406 --> 03:59:00,486
Yeah, I agree.

2988
03:59:01,026 --> 03:59:05,986
also just want to point out no matter how much fees they pay, they can only reorg back

2989
03:59:05,986 --> 03:59:08,116
one block at a time per main chain block.

2990
03:59:08,216 --> 03:59:13,896
and also when you're you're doing BMM you are paying the people who do have all that

2991
03:59:13,896 --> 03:59:18,996
hardware in order to do that and there would be mainchain miners who run do run the

2992
03:59:18,996 --> 03:59:23,916
sidechains and so they won't even use BMM they'll just validate the sidechain they'll

2993
03:59:23,916 --> 03:59:28,006
include the block hashes and they will know if there's a reorg and they won't want

2994
03:59:28,006 --> 03:59:31,646
to do that because of the same incentives that make them extend the main chain.

2995
03:59:34,526 --> 03:59:37,086
And also definitely ask Paul next Friday.

2996
03:59:38,306 --> 03:59:43,006
Cause this is more of an incentives question than a code question, and he could answer

2997
03:59:43,006 --> 03:59:47,546
that better. Very thanks, I've following for a while.

2998
03:59:47,896 --> 03:59:48,896
now. Yeah, cool.

2999
03:59:48,976 --> 03:59:49,896
I'll be there.

3000
04:00:01,516 --> 04:00:07,496
So, Cryptx, you speak to if

3001
04:00:07,496 --> 04:00:07,786
BIP300

3002
04:00:07,946 --> 04:00:09,266
was merged tomorrow,

3003
04:00:11,366 --> 04:00:17,266
what sidechains are available basically that you've already built

3004
04:00:17,266 --> 04:00:22,826
at launch? also can you describe after that how the

3005
04:00:22,826 --> 04:00:27,676
kind of sidechain template works and kind of easy or difficult it is to

3006
04:00:27,676 --> 04:00:32,596
about sidechains that we've talking about.

3007
04:00:34,576 --> 04:00:38,416
And we'll talk about the other sidechains that we've been talking about.

3008
04:00:38,416 --> 04:00:43,476
sidechains that we've been sidechains sidechains sidechains And then we'll talk the

3009
04:00:43,476 --> 04:00:44,916
other sidechains that about.

3010
04:00:45,636 --> 04:00:47,396
And then we'll talk about the other

3011
04:00:47,746 --> 04:00:51,206
sidechain, which you can use all the Zcash features on.

3012
04:00:52,046 --> 04:00:54,066
We also have an Ethereum sidechain.

3013
04:00:54,786 --> 04:00:58,746
You can use all the Ethereum's features, like can connect it to MetaMask and things

3014
04:00:58,746 --> 04:00:59,306
like that.

3015
04:01:01,266 --> 04:01:07,226
And we also are reviving bit names, and we have that working now.

3016
04:01:07,456 --> 04:01:10,016
and I think it's available to download right now on the website.

3017
04:01:10,036 --> 04:01:12,416
It was just uploaded a few hours ago.

3018
04:01:13,736 --> 04:01:19,696
And actually, if you go to drivechain.info forward slash releases,

3019
04:01:20,216 --> 04:01:24,516
you'll see the new updated software that just got posted.

3020
04:01:25,176 --> 04:01:27,196
We have something called the

3021
04:01:27,346 --> 04:01:32,046
DriveNet Launcher. If you've ever used Steam on your computer, it's supposed to be

3022
04:01:32,046 --> 04:01:37,326
similar to that, where you can install the Bitcoin mainchain, and then you can install

3023
04:01:37,326 --> 04:01:39,926
all the sidechains that we have working right now.

3024
04:01:42,806 --> 04:01:47,236
In addition to the sidechains I named already, we also have

3025
04:01:47,296 --> 04:01:52,916
a Bit Assets sidechain, which is used for NFTs and tokens and things like that.

3026
04:01:54,056 --> 04:01:59,476
it's not finished yet, but with a hive mind prediction market sidechain will also be

3027
04:01:59,476 --> 04:02:00,896
usable very soon.

3028
04:02:01,536 --> 04:02:05,176
definitely by the time BIP300 gets activated, it'll be ready.

3029
04:02:05,596 --> 04:02:07,126
So there's a lot of cool

3030
04:02:09,186 --> 04:02:10,046
I'm sure

3031
04:02:10,046 --> 04:02:16,726
what

3032
04:02:16,726 --> 04:02:21,706
hell the the the the the the the hell hell hell hell the the

3033
04:02:21,706 --> 04:02:26,926
the the hell

3034
04:02:27,016 --> 04:02:32,896
C++ sidechain template, it's a fork of Bitcoin Core, so it makes it pretty easy to

3035
04:02:32,896 --> 04:02:37,876
copy any altcoin that is a fork of Bitcoin Core like Zcash is.

3036
04:02:38,396 --> 04:02:43,096
And then for other coins like Ethereum, we have a Rust version of the sidechain

3037
04:02:43,096 --> 04:02:46,906
template, And that lets you add a library to

3038
04:02:47,026 --> 04:02:50,246
any altcoin that will convert it into a Bitcoin sidechain.

3039
04:02:50,906 --> 04:02:56,386
it is now limited to 21 million coins and you can deposit and withdraw from it.

3040
04:02:57,286 --> 04:02:58,046
So it's pretty cool.

3041
04:02:58,686 --> 04:03:02,606
Nikita, one of the developers, is working on the Rust version and I made the C++

3042
04:03:02,606 --> 04:03:06,786
version. Both of them are available to download at Drivechain.info.

3043
04:03:07,896 --> 04:03:13,616
if anybody out there is trying to fork any existing altcoin or has some kind of new

3044
04:03:13,616 --> 04:03:18,056
idea and they want help, we're always available in the telegram to help with debugging

3045
04:03:18,056 --> 04:03:19,596
and things like that.

3046
04:03:22,506 --> 04:03:26,576
And what are your thoughts on like maybe what other things

3047
04:03:26,686 --> 04:03:32,686
might be forked or obviously you only have so many hours in the day but

3048
04:03:32,686 --> 04:03:38,306
I assume almost certainly one Drivechain is merged into Bitcoin.

3049
04:03:39,066 --> 04:03:44,506
You can have a lot of eyes on it and a lot more awareness of the ability to clone

3050
04:03:44,506 --> 04:03:46,576
assets and do these things on top

3051
04:03:46,596 --> 04:03:51,276
of Bitcoin. what do you think might be some of the low hanging fruit that would

3052
04:03:51,276 --> 04:03:54,716
have some demand or be implemented?

3053
04:03:55,176 --> 04:04:01,116
We've been looking at things like See -A -Coin and Filecoin because some people like to

3054
04:04:01,116 --> 04:04:03,716
use the file storage on the blockchain.

3055
04:04:04,616 --> 04:04:06,436
More privacy chains besides

3056
04:04:08,826 --> 04:04:14,766
I think that RSK, which is currently one of the most successful merged mine sidechains,

3057
04:04:14,966 --> 04:04:17,626
would also become a drivechain pretty quickly.

3058
04:04:18,046 --> 04:04:22,006
They have an entire team of developers, and think that they'd be able to pull that off

3059
04:04:22,006 --> 04:04:22,626
really fast.

3060
04:04:29,936 --> 04:04:34,716
I personally think, I think there'd be like 10 successful sidechains.

3061
04:04:35,236 --> 04:04:39,996
Some people think that the 256 limit isn't nearly enough though, so

3062
04:04:39,996 --> 04:04:43,876
there's probably a lot of ideas I haven't thought of.

3063
04:04:43,876 --> 04:04:46,246
and so uh but there's nothing preventing

3064
04:04:46,346 --> 04:04:50,266
sidechains on top of the sidechains.

3065
04:04:50,746 --> 04:04:54,506
Nope, there's an infinite amount of sidechains possible.

3066
04:04:54,606 --> 04:04:58,426
There could be a sidechain created for creating more sidechains.

3067
04:05:00,126 --> 04:05:05,966
And how does, how does like interchain lightning

3068
04:05:06,136 --> 04:05:09,276
channels or bilateral payment channels work?

3069
04:05:10,796 --> 04:05:16,116
so other sidechains could have a lightning network that can connect back to the other

3070
04:05:16,116 --> 04:05:18,136
sidechains that also have lightning networks.

3071
04:05:18,776 --> 04:05:23,396
Like Thunder even could serve as like a hub between all of the sidechains.

3072
04:05:24,116 --> 04:05:25,956
And then there will be

3073
04:05:26,026 --> 04:05:31,866
exchanges like sideshift.ai is a great example that was actually created initially

3074
04:05:31,866 --> 04:05:36,466
because of Drivechain where people would be able to just instantly swap coins between

3075
04:05:36,466 --> 04:05:37,186
chains.

3076
04:05:40,406 --> 04:05:43,426
Well, think a tryptonomics has come up.

3077
04:05:43,706 --> 04:05:45,186
You have a question, tryptonomics?

3078
04:05:46,456 --> 04:05:54,056
sorry

3079
04:05:54,056 --> 04:05:59,996
what you guys come I just thought you had just come

3080
04:05:59,996 --> 04:06:04,416
up so I assumed that maybe you had a something to bring up

3081
04:06:10,326 --> 04:06:12,386
But it's a, nope, it's no problem, if not.

3082
04:07:11,656 --> 04:07:16,476
Hello, so any other questions for CryptAxe up

3083
04:07:16,476 --> 04:07:17,756
there?

3084
04:07:21,946 --> 04:07:24,096
Anyone in the chat want to join as a speaker?

3085
04:07:29,666 --> 04:07:34,986
I think another type of sidechain we might see is those Ordinals guys are very

3086
04:07:34,986 --> 04:07:38,866
creative, and they're having some issues working on the Bitcoin mainchain right now.

3087
04:07:39,526 --> 04:07:44,646
And I know that people like to have the images and other resources embedded on the

3088
04:07:44,646 --> 04:07:45,256
first layer

3089
04:07:45,656 --> 04:07:50,676
but for some things, it might actually be easier and better for them to develop more

3090
04:07:50,676 --> 04:07:52,216
creative software on a second layer.

3091
04:07:52,576 --> 04:07:57,416
So I'm really excited to see what the Ordinals group of people might do, because

3092
04:07:57,416 --> 04:07:59,176
there's a lot of creativity right there.

3093
04:08:03,056 --> 04:08:05,056
I just wanted to know

3094
04:08:05,146 --> 04:08:07,826
what your favorite Pokemon is and why.

3095
04:08:08,546 --> 04:08:12,606
Psyduck. Psyduck because he can copy everything that other Pokemon does.

3096
04:08:15,446 --> 04:08:16,946
That's very fitting.

3097
04:08:18,246 --> 04:08:22,726
I know my picture is Pikachu, so that might be a little confusing, but I do love

3098
04:08:22,726 --> 04:08:23,146
Psyduck.

3099
04:08:28,456 --> 04:08:30,896
I wanted to call Drivechain Psyduck, actually.

3100
04:08:34,396 --> 04:08:38,216
So is that like pilot Pikachu or flight attendant?

3101
04:08:38,376 --> 04:08:41,996
This is Tokyo Station Security Pikachu.

3102
04:08:42,636 --> 04:08:44,926
They're sold at the Tokyo train station

3103
04:08:44,926 --> 04:08:46,206
station one year.

3104
04:08:47,906 --> 04:08:49,746
Very collectible.

3105
04:08:54,306 --> 04:08:56,426
Hey, what's up guys?

3106
04:09:00,986 --> 04:09:04,766
Crypto X, are you familiar with

3107
04:09:05,596 --> 04:09:06,936
Bison Labs?

3108
04:09:08,236 --> 04:09:13,836
No, sorry. basically they've created zero -knowledge,

3109
04:09:13,836 --> 04:09:15,516
the roll -ups on Bitcoin.

3110
04:09:17,116 --> 04:09:21,896
so you could bridge over your ordinal, well right now it's only Bitmap, and then you

3111
04:09:21,896 --> 04:09:23,136
get a mirror token.

3112
04:09:23,136 --> 04:09:24,616
And on that token

3113
04:09:24,786 --> 04:09:29,826
could create liquidity pools eventually and solidity smart contracts, as well as

3114
04:09:29,826 --> 04:09:30,306
clarity.

3115
04:09:32,546 --> 04:09:33,566
So that's cool.

3116
04:09:33,986 --> 04:09:38,246
mean, terms of like, when you were saying like, if you can bridge ordinals over on

3117
04:09:38,246 --> 04:09:40,346
LayerTwo, it's pretty exciting.

3118
04:09:41,206 --> 04:09:41,666
Yeah, it is.

3119
04:09:41,946 --> 04:09:44,596
yeah, definitely check

3120
04:09:44,956 --> 04:09:48,536
them out. don't know the space, just like I'm responding to what I heard you say.

3121
04:09:48,676 --> 04:09:49,896
So I hope I didn't like.

3122
04:09:50,656 --> 04:09:51,756
Oh, no, I agree.

3123
04:09:52,216 --> 04:09:53,316
I'll check that out later.

3124
04:09:53,656 --> 04:09:55,356
sounds cool. Mr.

3125
04:09:55,596 --> 04:09:59,396
Ordos, I do think that doing things like that or putting ordinal and drivechains,

3126
04:09:59,536 --> 04:10:04,486
think that there's some sort of luxury or

3127
04:10:04,666 --> 04:10:10,606
scarcity value that people will want to pay just to have it on

3128
04:10:10,606 --> 04:10:14,906
the mainchain? Well, on the mainchain is different, right?

3129
04:10:14,986 --> 04:10:17,646
You can't really have full defile on the mainchain.

3130
04:10:17,726 --> 04:10:18,406
There's no way.

3131
04:10:18,886 --> 04:10:20,246
You can't write smart contracts.

3132
04:10:20,446 --> 04:10:22,406
You can't really create liquidity pools.

3133
04:10:22,726 --> 04:10:24,326
I'm talking about BRC20s.

3134
04:10:24,326 --> 04:10:24,376
And

3135
04:10:24,376 --> 04:10:28,956
just like what they're doing is really creating like an NFT trading pool like state a

3136
04:10:28,956 --> 04:10:34,796
pool In a way in a sense right liquidity pool and with automated like AMMs.

3137
04:10:35,276 --> 04:10:35,776
So

3138
04:10:37,196 --> 04:10:39,016
Can't really do like in a roll -up.

3139
04:10:39,076 --> 04:10:40,136
It's kind of cool.

3140
04:10:40,336 --> 04:10:41,396
Like it's really interesting.

3141
04:10:41,416 --> 04:10:44,216
So I'm they already have a bridge It's on the

3142
04:10:44,266 --> 04:10:44,746
testnet.

3143
04:10:46,006 --> 04:10:48,846
It's interesting, it's super simple to use too.

3144
04:10:49,026 --> 04:10:51,946
So I'll see how it develops and what it turns into.

3145
04:10:51,966 --> 04:10:54,086
I think it will turn into something big.

3146
04:10:55,886 --> 04:10:56,986
Yeah, that's pretty cool.

3147
04:10:57,046 --> 04:10:57,786
I'll check it out.

3148
04:10:57,966 --> 04:11:03,466
Yeah. I could see like the coolest ordinals staying on

3149
04:11:03,466 --> 04:11:03,986
LayerOne

3150
04:11:04,156 --> 04:11:09,996
and then LayerTwo ordinals stuff being for smaller collectibles or like a huge

3151
04:11:09,996 --> 04:11:13,636
issuance of them because like the board apes, there's a million of them.

3152
04:11:13,876 --> 04:11:16,016
Maybe you don't want all of them on the main chain.

3153
04:11:16,596 --> 04:11:20,796
Or maybe you can do the trading of them on the second layer instead of having to make

3154
04:11:20,796 --> 04:11:23,876
main chain transactions and spending a ton of

3155
04:11:24,046 --> 04:11:26,186
and waiting. Right, yeah, exactly.

3156
04:11:26,766 --> 04:11:28,146
I mean, that's one of the things that enables.

3157
04:11:29,626 --> 04:11:30,626
Yeah, that'd be cool.

3158
04:11:36,706 --> 04:11:42,606
Well, I mean, if I can also show myself, if I may, I don't know what the rules are

3159
04:11:42,606 --> 04:11:43,936
here, But

3160
04:11:44,176 --> 04:11:49,236
I've also created a small, very small advertising platform for Ordinals and any new

3161
04:11:49,236 --> 04:11:54,956
projects that are coming up on Ordinals, which is just completed and I'm going to be

3162
04:11:54,956 --> 04:11:55,796
launching it tomorrow.

3163
04:11:56,196 --> 04:12:01,916
I'll be making an announcement and there will be a space party, so everyone

3164
04:12:01,916 --> 04:12:03,056
here is welcome.

3165
04:12:03,826 --> 04:12:05,026
yeah

3166
04:12:07,046 --> 04:12:08,786
That's awesome

3167
04:12:10,226 --> 04:12:15,836
Yeah, cool, I think a lot of people that are

3168
04:12:16,846 --> 04:12:18,976
Pro drivechains are

3169
04:12:21,136 --> 04:12:23,446
Sympathetic to ordinals and vice

3170
04:12:26,236 --> 04:12:32,196
the thing right now ordinals numbering thing that's going on can can use that hand

3171
04:12:32,196 --> 04:12:35,856
from anywhere you know but hopefully it results soon

3172
04:12:35,856 --> 04:12:41,856
can you explain whatever drama or problems

3173
04:12:41,856 --> 04:12:43,376
are going on I'm not familiar

3174
04:12:43,606 --> 04:12:47,406
well ordinals are sequenced with inscription numbers which is basically

3175
04:12:48,726 --> 04:12:54,446
really immutable structure right like and indexers which

3176
04:12:54,446 --> 04:13:00,306
are not decentralized kind of centralized in specific entities like

3177
04:13:00,306 --> 04:13:03,426
like certain certain people run the indexers the

3178
04:13:03,576 --> 04:13:07,316
the protocol is written, there's something called cursed inscription.

3179
04:13:07,956 --> 04:13:13,096
Instead of inscribing on the first one, inscription got first set of each block, or

3180
04:13:13,096 --> 04:13:17,196
first set, it got inscribed on the second one, which causes discrepancy, which

3181
04:13:17,196 --> 04:13:23,096
basically caused the numbering scheme to not

3182
04:13:23,096 --> 04:13:23,336
be

3183
04:13:23,386 --> 04:13:26,666
sequenced properly with the satoshis in a way.

3184
04:13:27,606 --> 04:13:29,666
Indexers have to keep account of that.

3185
04:13:30,906 --> 04:13:36,786
As the numbers right now is 35 million or 33 million, as numbers get bigger

3186
04:13:36,786 --> 04:13:40,286
and bigger, it becomes a lot more expensive for indexers to run.

3187
04:13:40,286 --> 04:13:43,276
So they need to do something to fix

3188
04:13:43,376 --> 04:13:47,456
that sequencing and keep it that way, which will require a change, right?

3189
04:13:48,016 --> 04:13:53,256
that creates a little bit of complexity, but we'll see how it gets resolved.

3190
04:13:54,236 --> 04:13:55,996
What are options for the change?

3191
04:13:56,896 --> 04:13:58,156
Well, there's quite a few.

3192
04:13:58,316 --> 04:14:01,216
think Shizhik can talk about it in the audience better than me.

3193
04:14:01,776 --> 04:14:03,166
And there are many other people who

3194
04:14:03,386 --> 04:14:04,766
can. There's a bunch of proposals.

3195
04:14:05,086 --> 04:14:08,006
think one of them is just keep it the way it is.

3196
04:14:08,726 --> 04:14:12,106
The other one is to have two numbers, which no one really supports.

3197
04:14:12,226 --> 04:14:14,626
Have an inscription number and a real number.

3198
04:14:15,006 --> 04:14:17,306
The real number is what the indexers will run with.

3199
04:14:17,526 --> 04:14:20,166
And the inscription numbers will carry on like the way it is.

3200
04:14:20,606 --> 04:14:23,056
Again, I'm talking in broad generalities based on things

3201
04:14:23,136 --> 04:14:27,836
that I've heard so I don't know exactly concretely what the most prominent one is.

3202
04:14:28,736 --> 04:14:34,136
yeah, there's a bunch of them, but those were the ones that I heard

3203
04:14:34,136 --> 04:14:35,156
about.

3204
04:14:44,306 --> 04:14:50,046
But none of these require, mean, so this is like a ongoing kind of controversy

3205
04:14:50,046 --> 04:14:53,446
over the proposed solutions.

3206
04:14:53,606 --> 04:14:57,566
Correct. they're different opinions over what to do about this.

3207
04:14:57,886 --> 04:15:02,346
Yeah, we don't know what's gonna be what's gonna come to formation of this.

3208
04:15:02,346 --> 04:15:02,726
But

3209
04:15:02,836 --> 04:15:05,136
yeah, it's ongoing right now, I think.

3210
04:15:05,616 --> 04:15:07,096
until last night it was.

3211
04:15:11,836 --> 04:15:13,116
Still is.

3212
04:15:23,546 --> 04:15:24,046
other any?

3213
04:15:27,306 --> 04:15:33,106
This is very humble, but this is one of the top minds really in the industry.

3214
04:15:34,926 --> 04:15:36,526
If I might say so, Marcin.

3215
04:15:37,586 --> 04:15:42,566
no, I'd love, okay, so I've been layer 2 so so you guys are

3216
04:15:42,616 --> 04:15:44,636
making a LayerTwo on Bitcoin?

3217
04:15:45,236 --> 04:15:47,136
that like a Drivechain, right?

3218
04:15:48,236 --> 04:15:54,136
Yeah, it's a proposal for a soft fork of Bitcoin to add two BIPs, one

3219
04:15:54,136 --> 04:15:59,116
of them to create a hashrate escrow, which is a way that proof of work controls a

3220
04:15:59,116 --> 04:16:02,396
specific set of UTXOs that are used to deposit

3221
04:16:04,846 --> 04:16:10,326
BIP301, Blind Merge Mining, lets us merge mine the sidechains without mainchain miners

3222
04:16:10,326 --> 04:16:12,486
having to validate them if they don't want to.

3223
04:16:13,226 --> 04:16:14,576
But they also can if they want to.

3224
04:16:24,156 --> 04:16:29,776
I'm not very technical, know, so I just work with a lot of people, I, you know, I'm

3225
04:16:29,776 --> 04:16:35,496
like, like I come from a very different chain, I, I, Ethereum, and I'm still learning,

3226
04:16:35,596 --> 04:16:41,256
like, I don't know the technical side a lot, but I know that there were a lot of like

3227
04:16:41,256 --> 04:16:42,286
Bitcoin is what it

3228
04:16:42,346 --> 04:16:45,106
is based on a lot of efforts that were made and

3229
04:16:48,806 --> 04:16:52,726
I don't mean to interrupt but something interesting is coming from

3230
04:16:54,546 --> 04:16:59,966
like being in the big into helium and other things and not having had experience with

3231
04:16:59,966 --> 04:17:02,176
Bitcoin I assume then

3232
04:17:02,436 --> 04:17:08,436
the emergence or popularity of ordinals kind of got you more into Bitcoin?

3233
04:17:09,316 --> 04:17:15,036
Correct, yeah. I can tell you from data that there's 350,000 new

3234
04:17:15,036 --> 04:17:17,656
people that came into Bitcoin because of ordinals.

3235
04:17:19,336 --> 04:17:22,066
So yeah, I wouldn't be hearing like

3236
04:17:22,066 --> 04:17:26,126
like the way I am and the capacity I am if there weren't ordinals.

3237
04:17:28,586 --> 04:17:32,126
so now is this kind of your primary focus?

3238
04:17:33,606 --> 04:17:39,386
Yeah, I'm kind of, it is, and I'm looking into like Zika privacy right now,

3239
04:17:39,906 --> 04:17:41,666
like how to make

3240
04:17:41,956 --> 04:17:47,336
transactions private on the zero knowledge Like to provide the features on like kind of

3241
04:17:47,336 --> 04:17:49,796
trying to work with some people to make that feature.

3242
04:17:50,136 --> 04:17:54,556
So yeah That's kind of what I'm working on

3243
04:17:55,656 --> 04:18:01,396
Yeah, you said you came from aetherium one of the things drivechain lets us do is Copy

3244
04:18:01,396 --> 04:18:01,846
all of

3245
04:18:01,906 --> 04:18:04,806
the features of Ethereum into a Bitcoin sidechain.

3246
04:18:05,706 --> 04:18:08,566
the EVM won't be on mainchain.

3247
04:18:09,086 --> 04:18:13,246
A validation of smart contracts won't be on mainchain.

3248
04:18:13,386 --> 04:18:17,686
It all gets quarantined into one UTXO, essentially.

3249
04:18:18,866 --> 04:18:21,586
And so you can have a ZK sidechain.

3250
04:18:21,796 --> 04:18:25,916
can have an Ethereum sidechain, you can have all kinds of stuff like that.

3251
04:18:26,036 --> 04:18:27,676
You can have an Ordinal sidechain.

3252
04:18:28,576 --> 04:18:30,796
Yeah. Yeah, no, that sounds really cool.

3253
04:18:31,036 --> 04:18:33,736
know like so I'm in a startup.

3254
04:18:34,096 --> 04:18:37,396
A lot of people are doing this, although a lot of times it's just kind of like I'm

3255
04:18:37,396 --> 04:18:41,236
listening to them and they're like a lot of things go over my head because they go into

3256
04:18:41,236 --> 04:18:41,476
like the

3257
04:18:41,626 --> 04:18:42,946
technical details of it.

3258
04:18:43,866 --> 04:18:46,266
yeah, it's really interesting.

3259
04:18:46,906 --> 04:18:52,306
I think Bitcoin is going to absorb a lot of DeFi from other chains.

3260
04:18:52,906 --> 04:18:56,326
It's almost like they were the testing grounds in a way.

3261
04:18:57,006 --> 04:18:58,886
At least it feels that way.

3262
04:18:59,086 --> 04:19:01,266
how it's kind of...

3263
04:19:01,756 --> 04:19:07,696
We do have the ability to with the BIP300 proposal, and we're closer

3264
04:19:07,696 --> 04:19:09,496
to activating it than ever before.

3265
04:19:10,376 --> 04:19:14,656
Yeah, that's... So what was it about Ordinals that

3266
04:19:14,656 --> 04:19:20,596
interested you over, like, theorist that is, like,

3267
04:19:20,896 --> 04:19:21,406
on

3268
04:19:21,466 --> 04:19:24,866
focusing on Ethereum NFTs or what was the...

3269
04:19:24,866 --> 04:19:27,046
Well I never was in the Ethereum NFTs.

3270
04:19:27,126 --> 04:19:28,846
was really in the Ethereum DeFi side.

3271
04:19:29,066 --> 04:19:30,066
I dabbled a little bit.

3272
04:19:30,086 --> 04:19:34,686
I collected a couple of NFTs but they were more like oh it gives me access to AI which

3273
04:19:34,686 --> 04:19:38,006
was like long time ago even before AI trend came into being.

3274
04:19:38,146 --> 04:19:40,646
They had like these language models or whatnot which I thought was cool.

3275
04:19:40,826 --> 04:19:41,296
That's the

3276
04:19:41,336 --> 04:19:47,176
only NFT that I got apart from one more Samyam space cubes, because I know

3277
04:19:47,176 --> 04:19:49,936
they're, they were at some point like working with Tesla or something.

3278
04:19:50,196 --> 04:19:53,736
That's the only reason I got their NFT, but they're, they're, they're working on cool

3279
04:19:53,736 --> 04:19:56,276
technology in terms of biosens, the census and whatnot.

3280
04:19:56,716 --> 04:20:01,156
But the reason why I got into Ornals is because really because of the numbering

3281
04:20:01,186 --> 04:20:07,086
scheme I knew like I've been in so many different projects in out around defi I

3282
04:20:07,086 --> 04:20:11,246
you know I was there even before like metamask was there and I'm sure you guys were

3283
04:20:11,246 --> 04:20:14,986
here for way before but I was just trading those Coins defi learning was really

3284
04:20:14,986 --> 04:20:20,586
exciting to me when atarium was kind of coming into being their defi You know getting

3285
04:20:20,586 --> 04:20:20,986
what

3286
04:20:23,356 --> 04:20:27,476
So when Ordinals came out, it was really the numbering scheme that got me.

3287
04:20:27,776 --> 04:20:33,256
knew, even though I was working with a developer, he was like doing all these

3288
04:20:33,256 --> 04:20:38,736
minting for me, the Ordinals that I wanted, he was like, why are you doing this?

3289
04:20:38,776 --> 04:20:40,136
This is going to go to zero.

3290
04:20:40,436 --> 04:20:40,966
he was just

3291
04:20:41,046 --> 04:20:42,746
baffled like this was even happening.

3292
04:20:43,526 --> 04:20:45,666
He literally was like, you're stupid in a way.

3293
04:20:45,786 --> 04:20:47,126
You could kind of feel it.

3294
04:20:47,366 --> 04:20:48,806
But he was really nice, though.

3295
04:20:48,806 --> 04:20:49,186
not going to lie.

3296
04:20:49,886 --> 04:20:52,406
So it was interesting for me to see him do that.

3297
04:20:52,706 --> 04:20:55,626
you know, hit, Orno hit 10 million.

3298
04:20:55,906 --> 04:20:57,106
Now they're at 30 million.

3299
04:20:57,366 --> 04:21:00,546
There was just something about that numbering scheme that I think reeled in a lot more

3300
04:21:00,546 --> 04:21:00,856
people

3301
04:21:01,076 --> 04:21:05,296
than from the whole other ecosystems, right?

3302
04:21:05,376 --> 04:21:06,656
It was really the inscription numbers.

3303
04:21:06,736 --> 04:21:09,716
If there were no inscription numbers, I don't think ordinals would be around.

3304
04:21:09,936 --> 04:21:11,276
It's like a weird thing.

3305
04:21:12,436 --> 04:21:17,676
because it just, the market was in a state where everyone was just kind of like, and

3306
04:21:17,676 --> 04:21:20,746
then they were like ordinals with numbers and

3307
04:21:20,946 --> 04:21:23,166
NFTs, so the smaller one will be better.

3308
04:21:23,506 --> 04:21:29,286
they started and then BRC20 came around and then that was a little bit of a fad, but I

3309
04:21:29,286 --> 04:21:31,826
don't think it was completely that, you know what I mean?

3310
04:21:31,946 --> 04:21:34,426
I think there'll be something that'll come off of it.

3311
04:21:36,106 --> 04:21:40,146
And then, you know, now we're seeing like early kind of things of,

3312
04:21:40,636 --> 04:21:45,536
will the DeFi go if the liquidity from Bitcoin goes into DeFi like it did for Ethereum

3313
04:21:45,536 --> 04:21:51,436
and Ethereum DeFi kind of is at parity with Ethereum I think in terms of market

3314
04:21:51,436 --> 04:21:55,776
cap if that does probably not going to happen with Bitcoin but even you know absorbs 10

3315
04:21:55,776 --> 04:22:01,396
% then what will thrive right like that'll require a DeFi like some layer to some

3316
04:22:01,396 --> 04:22:05,396
something so we'll see how

3317
04:22:05,396 --> 04:22:11,276
that works or anything,

3318
04:22:11,516 --> 04:22:16,616
but if you're interested in the inscription in ordinals numbers, might find tonal

3319
04:22:16,816 --> 04:22:19,616
Bitcoin. That's -O -N -A -L Bitcoin.

3320
04:22:20,136 --> 04:22:22,396
Really interesting. It was one of first altcoins.

3321
04:22:22,816 --> 04:22:24,296
It was developed by Luke Jr.

3322
04:22:24,976 --> 04:22:30,416
And it's an altcoin in the sense that it's a different way of numbering the Bitcoin

3323
04:22:30,416 --> 04:22:32,976
amounts. And it's pretty cool.

3324
04:22:33,456 --> 04:22:35,896
But you should check it out if you like the Ordinal's Numbers.

3325
04:22:36,593 --> 04:22:37,693
Yeah, I'll definitely check it.

3326
04:22:37,813 --> 04:22:39,013
Tonal Bitcoin. Yeah, yeah.

3327
04:22:39,213 --> 04:22:43,433
Tonal Bitcoin. It's a fun thing in Bitcoin history for anybody to read about.

3328
04:22:44,013 --> 04:22:45,513
Gotcha. Yeah, for sure.

3329
04:23:01,451 --> 04:23:07,051
the was lovely and nice talking to you nice, yeah

3330
04:23:07,051 --> 04:23:08,511
hit the gym

3331
04:23:10,791 --> 04:23:15,931
CryptAxe is total Bitcoin well thank you for coming it was interesting to hear the

3332
04:23:15,931 --> 04:23:16,508
perspective

3333
04:23:16,508 --> 04:23:21,748
perspective, especially because it's interesting

3334
04:23:21,748 --> 04:23:27,628
in light of kind of current Bitcoin dogmatic narrative about

3335
04:23:27,628 --> 04:23:33,048
hearing your story and about 350,000 people who have come into Bitcoin

3336
04:23:33,048 --> 04:23:34,548
because of Ordinals.

3337
04:23:34,548 --> 04:23:36,466
Yeah, yeah,

3338
04:23:38,146 --> 04:23:41,146
So, that's really interesting to me too.

3339
04:23:41,146 --> 04:23:44,526
the thing is like those 350,000 people don't make a lot of transactions.

3340
04:23:44,626 --> 04:23:45,086
That's the thing.

3341
04:23:45,186 --> 04:23:50,286
think the transaction rate is like about like 3 -4,000.

3342
04:23:50,686 --> 04:23:54,466
So, we'll see how that goes per day.

3343
04:23:59,303 --> 04:24:02,363
It's a lot more than we had before.

3344
04:24:05,623 --> 04:24:10,863
To see if Bitcoin can use some more transactions, be honest, would say that,

3345
04:24:11,183 --> 04:24:16,380
you know, I've been very bullish for a long time, probably the most,

3346
04:24:16,900 --> 04:24:22,740
probably like, yeah, irresponsibly bullish honestly, probably

3347
04:24:22,740 --> 04:24:28,640
the most bearish thing in Bitcoin, least today, which is

3348
04:24:28,640 --> 04:24:33,960
some of the most bearish things I've seen is the kind of crypto fees.info to see how

3349
04:24:33,960 --> 04:24:36,120
much more fees

3350
04:24:36,338 --> 04:24:40,818
are generated on Ethereum versus Bitcoin.

3351
04:24:41,378 --> 04:24:42,798
It's not good.

3352
04:24:43,118 --> 04:24:43,818
getting our assets.

3353
04:24:44,298 --> 04:24:45,678
No, it makes me sad.

3354
04:24:46,098 --> 04:24:46,778
It's too bad.

3355
04:24:47,238 --> 04:24:49,518
We used to dominate by a lot.

3356
04:24:49,678 --> 04:24:50,958
It wasn't even a comparison.

3357
04:24:51,538 --> 04:24:55,138
And it was easy back then to say that Ethereum was a bullshit scam.

3358
04:24:56,875 --> 04:24:58,715
now it's kind of flipped the other way.

3359
04:25:00,155 --> 04:25:00,635
Yeah.

3360
04:25:03,395 --> 04:25:07,615
Yeah. Ordinals have made Bitcoin fun again lately, I feel like.

3361
04:25:08,355 --> 04:25:09,215
I welcome that.

3362
04:25:12,255 --> 04:25:14,535
Can you explain a little bit, Tonal Bitcoin?

3363
04:25:14,775 --> 04:25:16,252
know Luke Jr

3364
04:25:16,252 --> 04:25:22,152
Jr. into tonal numbering, which I don't really intend to.

3365
04:25:22,152 --> 04:25:27,752
Yeah, the tonal numbering system is what is used in music and things like

3366
04:25:27,752 --> 04:25:32,012
that. And it's more easy to convert it into hexadecimal.

3367
04:25:33,012 --> 04:25:36,152
essentially what Tonal Bitcoin does is divide

3368
04:25:36,210 --> 04:25:40,470
the Satoshi's further down into smaller units.

3369
04:25:41,090 --> 04:25:43,150
here I have the list actually.

3370
04:25:43,390 --> 04:25:48,970
It's we've got Tam Bitcoin, Bong Bitcoin, Mill Bitcoin,

3371
04:25:49,890 --> 04:25:55,590
Sand Bitcoin, Ton Bitcoin, Bitcoin is which is the normal not devised

3372
04:25:55,590 --> 04:25:56,030
unit.

3373
04:25:56,387 --> 04:26:00,507
Bitcoin Ton, Bitcoin San, Bitcoin Mill, and Bitcoin Bong.

3374
04:26:01,467 --> 04:26:03,987
It's a way of the satoshis more divisible.

3375
04:26:05,247 --> 04:26:10,687
It's a way of representing more units out of the unit on the chain, which kind of

3376
04:26:10,687 --> 04:26:15,007
reminds me of originals a little bit, but I also don't understand how either of these

3377
04:26:15,007 --> 04:26:15,847
things work totally.

3378
04:26:18,064 --> 04:26:20,324
think everyone should read about it though, it's really interesting.

3379
04:26:23,084 --> 04:26:27,664
And there's example code on the Bitcoin.IT wiki.

3380
04:26:28,544 --> 04:26:34,544
So you can even see how you would write like a client to validate these things outside

3381
04:26:34,544 --> 04:26:35,104
of Bitcoin,

3382
04:26:36,082 --> 04:26:38,122
which is a pretty interesting idea.

3383
04:26:41,642 --> 04:26:46,342
People should also read about a counterparty if they haven't heard of that before,

3384
04:26:46,442 --> 04:26:51,382
because that was another Bitcoin project that did a client validation outside of the

3385
04:26:51,382 --> 04:26:54,502
Bitcoin validation. I think that that's pretty cool.

3386
04:26:54,502 --> 04:26:54,602
the

3387
04:26:57,079 --> 04:27:01,799
user, but of course all my rare Pepe's I left them on some

3388
04:27:02,539 --> 04:27:08,459
Screen broke and yeah, then when they mooned I was out a few million

3389
04:27:08,459 --> 04:27:13,579
dollars. I'm Yeah, we're Pepe also tore apart the best Bitcoin podcast ever.

3390
04:27:13,579 --> 04:27:15,039
So I don't even like to hear about it

3391
04:27:23,097 --> 04:27:26,377
I'm big of

3392
04:27:29,517 --> 04:27:34,817
I'm I'm I'm Bitcoin, Bitcoin, Bitcoin, I'm fan I'm a fan of Bitcoin, of

3393
04:27:34,817 --> 04:27:35,617
Bitcoin,

3394
04:27:36,214 --> 04:27:41,594
uh definitely in those early days or I think they maybe they started late 2013

3395
04:27:42,114 --> 04:27:47,574
But it was I think by far the best Content it was the

3396
04:27:47,574 --> 04:27:53,114
original Scam busters as well and what's funny is that they were calling

3397
04:27:53,674 --> 04:27:55,911
shitcoins and altcoins scams before

3398
04:27:56,031 --> 04:28:01,731
everyone else, they also then were the first to kind of give warning

3399
04:28:01,731 --> 04:28:07,611
that it was getting too big and that it was going to get out of control like way before

3400
04:28:07,611 --> 04:28:11,491
ICOs. were saying, yeah, there's something happening here and you need to watch out

3401
04:28:11,491 --> 04:28:14,011
because this is not good for Bitcoin.

3402
04:28:14,231 --> 04:28:15,869
And then it was

3403
04:28:15,929 --> 04:28:21,889
very prophetic. Yeah, a lot of people don't know that there was a pre ICO altcoin

3404
04:28:21,889 --> 04:28:26,349
phase where people just posted these announcements on Bitcoin talk and then they would

3405
04:28:26,349 --> 04:28:29,589
privately sell altcoins to people and other shady stuff.

3406
04:28:31,589 --> 04:28:33,649
And then eventually the ICO became a thing.

3407
04:28:36,006 --> 04:28:41,726
Yes. In the day, people would post a new shit coin on to BitcoinTalk

3408
04:28:41,726 --> 04:28:47,726
and it was the most important part of the launch was your forum post

3409
04:28:47,726 --> 04:28:53,626
and there was a whole wave and it was very brazen

3410
04:28:53,626 --> 04:28:55,566
and very small cap back then,

3411
04:28:56,243 --> 04:29:02,243
small cap. yeah, I remember I was in a bunch of

3412
04:29:02,243 --> 04:29:07,563
groups that would like, they were like these very open pump and dump groups, but

3413
04:29:07,563 --> 04:29:12,343
basically they were dumping on you because they were already in before they even jumped

3414
04:29:12,343 --> 04:29:13,283
into the group.

3415
04:29:14,363 --> 04:29:15,583
back then everybody thought

3416
04:29:15,781 --> 04:29:21,201
like fair launch was the main thing like you know this is fair launch coin meaning that

3417
04:29:21,201 --> 04:29:26,061
they weren't keeping any for themselves right like it was fair launch coin

3418
04:29:26,061 --> 04:29:32,021
yeah so that was why

3419
04:29:32,021 --> 04:29:35,698
when in 2017 when they had the next kind

3420
04:29:35,738 --> 04:29:41,678
of big bull market, why I never got into ICOs or shitcoins despite back

3421
04:29:41,678 --> 04:29:46,658
then, actually, there was a few instances where I was offered like a lot of money to

3422
04:29:46,658 --> 04:29:50,478
get involved in some of these projects, which in hindsight, I probably should have done

3423
04:29:50,478 --> 04:29:54,398
it anyway because, but my thought was like, oh, that's very scammy.

3424
04:29:54,578 --> 04:29:55,438
It's not good for my

3425
04:29:55,655 --> 04:30:01,195
reputation and all that, but I didn't see like, I don't know, Bitcoin

3426
04:30:01,195 --> 04:30:06,995
becoming so, like the Bitcoin culture, at least online, becoming so intolerable.

3427
04:30:08,255 --> 04:30:08,855
Yeah,

3428
04:30:10,255 --> 04:30:15,613
but yeah, Twitter wasn't really a thing back then, there wasn't much, all

3429
04:30:15,613 --> 04:30:21,453
that much like relevant discussion It was like the reddit was really big until like the

3430
04:30:21,453 --> 04:30:22,233
block size war.

3431
04:30:22,233 --> 04:30:28,153
I think that was kind of the biggest thing after Bitcoin talk yeah, and but anyway,

3432
04:30:28,193 --> 04:30:33,753
yeah, I was involved I was a Whole heavy holder of all sorts of nonsense shit coins

3433
04:30:33,753 --> 04:30:34,733
back in 2013

3434
04:30:35,950 --> 04:30:39,990
had 42, which was a really interesting one, where there was only 42 coins.

3435
04:30:40,290 --> 04:30:43,110
Oh yeah. Like a bit of 21 million coins, there was 42 coins.

3436
04:30:43,250 --> 04:30:45,950
So each coin was worth like five Bitcoin or something.

3437
04:30:46,490 --> 04:30:47,710
Obviously super valuable.

3438
04:30:48,330 --> 04:30:53,050
Yeah, exactly. And then I actually had a ton of doge, which I lost

3439
04:30:53,050 --> 04:30:54,810
in, uh,

3440
04:30:55,928 --> 04:30:56,968
believe, in Cryptsy.

3441
04:30:57,088 --> 04:30:58,688
I remember that, yep.

3442
04:30:59,008 --> 04:31:00,408
That guy's in jail, I think.

3443
04:31:01,348 --> 04:31:02,768
No, he's not in jail.

3444
04:31:02,768 --> 04:31:04,108
He ran off to China.

3445
04:31:04,668 --> 04:31:06,688
Oh, okay. He got away scot free.

3446
04:31:07,328 --> 04:31:13,288
yeah, so this was one of the original exchange hacks for anybody listening.

3447
04:31:13,288 --> 04:31:15,388
It wasn't privy to getting

3448
04:31:15,485 --> 04:31:16,485
hacked in Cripsy.

3449
04:31:16,585 --> 04:31:18,165
Yeah, it was a self -hack.

3450
04:31:18,645 --> 04:31:20,085
It was like a self -hack.

3451
04:31:20,225 --> 04:31:24,605
But what they said was that one of the altcoins had

3452
04:31:24,605 --> 04:31:30,525
a software update and somebody had inserted a backdoor into

3453
04:31:30,525 --> 04:31:35,225
the node, into the node software, and that they were

3454
04:31:35,442 --> 04:31:41,362
hosting that node software on the same server that they were hosting their bitcoin

3455
04:31:41,362 --> 04:31:47,262
and a bunch of other altcoin nodes as well so that their their wallets I

3456
04:31:47,262 --> 04:31:53,242
mean to say so that their attacker was able through this altcoin node to

3457
04:31:53,242 --> 04:31:54,962
drain their bitcoin wallets

3458
04:31:55,400 --> 04:31:57,260
know, sounds very unbelievable.

3459
04:31:57,920 --> 04:32:02,420
Yeah. And it's almost for certain that what actually happened was the exchange owner

3460
04:32:02,420 --> 04:32:03,640
basically just rug pulled.

3461
04:32:03,820 --> 04:32:08,580
was like the original, one of the original rug pulls, at the time, like the largest

3462
04:32:08,580 --> 04:32:14,540
one. so they actually only issued a arrest warrant

3463
04:32:14,540 --> 04:32:15,357
for the guy like

3464
04:32:15,397 --> 04:32:19,337
two years ago, so I assume they had been investigating him whole time and actually

3465
04:32:19,337 --> 04:32:20,137
looking for him,

3466
04:32:21,377 --> 04:32:22,517
but... ...Bibburn was his name.

3467
04:32:23,137 --> 04:32:23,497
Yep.

3468
04:32:25,337 --> 04:32:30,737
Bibburn, so... Pretty much all Bitcoin services used to close by just disappearing with

3469
04:32:30,737 --> 04:32:31,517
everybody's money.

3470
04:32:33,357 --> 04:32:35,017
Yeah, God only knows how many

3471
04:32:35,314 --> 04:32:39,114
Doge I had over there, because Doge are literally worth absolutely nothing.

3472
04:32:40,534 --> 04:32:42,214
mean, they were worth like, you know, whatever,

3473
04:32:43,514 --> 04:32:48,174
one one one hundred thousandth of a penny or something like that.

3474
04:32:50,234 --> 04:32:52,154
And maybe you'll be lucky, like some of the Mt.

3475
04:32:52,154 --> 04:32:54,734
Gox people and get a portion of it back one day.

3476
04:32:55,332 --> 04:32:58,672
No, they had some process for claim finding a claim.

3477
04:32:58,752 --> 04:32:59,692
I never did it.

3478
04:32:59,732 --> 04:33:03,912
Okay, I didn't have any record of what was even in there I had lichen coin, which was

3479
04:33:03,912 --> 04:33:06,512
you know, they had these coins that were like there was like

3480
04:33:08,232 --> 04:33:13,212
vampire werewolf and whatever coin those were big for a while and so people don't

3481
04:33:13,212 --> 04:33:15,229
remember that maybe you remember Aurora

3482
04:33:15,429 --> 04:33:20,629
Coin. So Aurora Coin was the number two altcoin for a long, time.

3483
04:33:21,429 --> 04:33:22,609
And this was a coin that was,

3484
04:33:24,029 --> 04:33:29,729
the premise was that they were going to airdrop some allocation of

3485
04:33:29,729 --> 04:33:34,949
Aurora coin to every island of to try

3486
04:33:35,287 --> 04:33:41,167
prime the pump to catalyze this coin's

3487
04:33:41,167 --> 04:33:44,727
adoption in the Icelandic market.

3488
04:33:46,767 --> 04:33:51,467
That was a huge wave of altcoins back then that started with Aurora Coin.

3489
04:33:51,607 --> 04:33:55,067
Then they had these other ones, Dorado Coin,

3490
04:33:55,284 --> 04:33:57,404
was same thing for Spain.

3491
04:33:57,724 --> 04:34:03,424
sorts of like That was a huge wave at that time.

3492
04:34:05,824 --> 04:34:09,604
Speculators in Aurora Coin made out huge.

3493
04:34:12,044 --> 04:34:15,084
I don't know I can keep the

3494
04:34:15,181 --> 04:34:17,861
stamina of Paul and go 20 hours straight, but

3495
04:34:19,241 --> 04:34:25,181
If anyone anyone listening have any Desire to come up on the stage and ask a question

3496
04:34:25,181 --> 04:34:30,841
to the One of the most unsung geniuses of all of the crypto

3497
04:34:30,841 --> 04:34:31,761
industry up here

3498
04:34:34,101 --> 04:34:35,059
I want

3499
04:34:35,199 --> 04:34:40,879
to give you credit and congratulate you for the very nice drivechain

3500
04:34:40,879 --> 04:34:43,619
launcher. Oh, thank you.

3501
04:34:44,139 --> 04:34:45,539
So beautifully done.

3502
04:34:46,299 --> 04:34:52,219
it's like I downloaded the other one, the main chain with the full blockchain, but now

3503
04:34:52,219 --> 04:34:54,919
I just in five minutes,

3504
04:34:55,356 --> 04:34:58,396
download it and start the Drivechain.

3505
04:34:58,996 --> 04:35:04,076
now I wanted to suggest or encourage people to try it and

3506
04:35:04,076 --> 04:35:06,236
see themselves how it works.

3507
04:35:07,176 --> 04:35:08,196
And that's something.

3508
04:35:08,616 --> 04:35:13,596
Yeah, that has been developed by a new developer named Jacob, who is doing GUI stuff

3509
04:35:13,596 --> 04:35:14,936
for us. And he's done a

3510
04:35:14,973 --> 04:35:16,173
really awesome job already.

3511
04:35:16,673 --> 04:35:21,353
I just checked in our private group and there will be an update to that within the next

3512
04:35:21,353 --> 04:35:22,153
couple of days.

3513
04:35:22,733 --> 04:35:25,293
So check back again and it will be improved even more.

3514
04:35:26,053 --> 04:35:26,833
And thank you.

3515
04:35:26,833 --> 04:35:27,593
that's a great time.

3516
04:35:27,853 --> 04:35:33,673
Yeah, it's like even you can see the sidechains here and which one you want to kind

3517
04:35:33,673 --> 04:35:34,931
of support probably

3518
04:35:35,191 --> 04:35:40,071
with the nodes will be just a click download and will be

3519
04:35:40,071 --> 04:35:43,311
easy. Yeah, it's very nice.

3520
04:35:43,711 --> 04:35:46,451
I hope Bitcoin Core will improve.

3521
04:35:51,011 --> 04:35:51,671
Well,

3522
04:35:53,011 --> 04:35:54,871
if you have any issues with

3523
04:35:54,888 --> 04:35:59,988
it or any suggestions, send us a in our Drivechain chat telegram.

3524
04:35:59,988 --> 04:36:02,888
Oh yeah, I'm there also, there.

3525
04:36:03,668 --> 04:36:06,588
Yeah, yeah. What I want to say,

3526
04:36:07,788 --> 04:36:13,688
I just made a screenshot and tweeted the layout of the

3527
04:36:13,688 --> 04:36:14,548
launcher open

3528
04:36:15,125 --> 04:36:20,865
people can see on the Cool.

3529
04:36:22,265 --> 04:36:27,045
It's like, yeah, you're bringing the

3530
04:36:27,045 --> 04:36:30,525
old coins and all these scams.

3531
04:36:31,525 --> 04:36:33,925
Like, I lost money in Bitcoin game.

3532
04:36:35,383 --> 04:36:38,123
And it was like 2014 or 15.

3533
04:36:38,823 --> 04:36:43,123
yeah, there was so much stuff like that.

3534
04:36:43,823 --> 04:36:49,123
And everything lost, I mean, not the loss, everybody like discarded,

3535
04:36:49,643 --> 04:36:54,760
like throw away or don't care about Dogecoin, but we see

3536
04:36:54,840 --> 04:36:59,640
what happened in 2021, came to 70 cents.

3537
04:37:02,100 --> 04:37:07,780
People cannot predict the future of the market and Bitcoin needs to be able to be

3538
04:37:07,780 --> 04:37:11,100
adaptable without ruining the values of the main chain.

3539
04:37:11,400 --> 04:37:14,718
the few things about Bitcoin that we can all agree about

3540
04:37:15,198 --> 04:37:16,558
the supply,

3541
04:37:18,558 --> 04:37:22,318
the signatures, the block time, things like that.

3542
04:37:22,558 --> 04:37:24,518
But we can change other things on a sidechain.

3543
04:37:25,718 --> 04:37:26,578
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

3544
04:37:26,958 --> 04:37:30,138
mean, the innovation need to go forward.

3545
04:37:30,138 --> 04:37:34,675
Why to do something from

3546
04:37:34,875 --> 04:37:40,695
scratch and bringing, know, kind of from the beginning

3547
04:37:40,695 --> 04:37:45,375
everything, this whole old coin chains, you know, when it can be done on Bitcoin.

3548
04:37:46,615 --> 04:37:51,435
Yeah, and with collaboration, we can make Bitcoin the strongest and actually be able to

3549
04:37:51,435 --> 04:37:54,632
stand up to future attacks, whereas right now it's in this

3550
04:37:54,812 --> 04:37:58,612
super weak position where people are scared to even do anything with it.

3551
04:37:59,952 --> 04:38:04,992
yeah, exactly. you was talking about Bitcoin heaters and stuff like that.

3552
04:38:05,112 --> 04:38:10,872
mean, they already exist, but you know, if drivechains is

3553
04:38:10,872 --> 04:38:14,590
enabled, I think we'll bring more and more kind of

3554
04:38:14,590 --> 04:38:17,470
new ways of utilizing Bitcoin.

3555
04:38:18,250 --> 04:38:22,330
mean, first of all, the blockchain because the blockchain needs to be utilized.

3556
04:38:22,910 --> 04:38:28,870
everything else. you know, I'm having a so sci

3557
04:38:28,870 --> 04:38:34,547
-fi idea even like not to build something, kind of thoughts

3558
04:38:34,707 --> 04:38:40,547
about using... Somebody will say that's not possible, but I think it's possible

3559
04:38:40,547 --> 04:38:44,747
with something like Drivechain or maybe something improved in the future.

3560
04:38:45,347 --> 04:38:50,907
Like even other networks to be on, you know, something like a sidechain

3561
04:38:50,907 --> 04:38:53,847
or so you have more decentralization,

3562
04:38:54,504 --> 04:38:59,114
electricity grids, internet grids or stuff like that, know.

3563
04:39:00,044 --> 04:39:03,064
But that's for the far future, probably.

3564
04:39:04,604 --> 04:39:10,504
Yeah, and I think all of that improvement to Bitcoin mining is also a net improvement

3565
04:39:10,504 --> 04:39:14,404
to humanity because working to develop more efficient ways

3566
04:39:14,462 --> 04:39:19,322
of harnessing helps everybody, not just people using Bitcoin.

3567
04:39:19,782 --> 04:39:24,922
So we really want to increase the hashrate for the good of everything, include Bitcoin

3568
04:39:24,922 --> 04:39:26,202
and everything else.

3569
04:39:27,742 --> 04:39:29,222
Yeah, I I agree.

3570
04:39:29,502 --> 04:39:34,419
That's, I mean, it's brilliant to tell you through when I first

3571
04:39:34,979 --> 04:39:40,959
saw a blog post, and I went from the beginning,

3572
04:39:41,099 --> 04:39:46,859
like 2013 or something like that, I was like, oh my god, why we don't know

3573
04:39:46,859 --> 04:39:48,239
more about this?

3574
04:39:51,519 --> 04:39:54,376
Because I don't know why, but I know

3575
04:39:54,436 --> 04:39:59,476
you are on conferences and stuff like that, but it was not much, much public

3576
04:39:59,476 --> 04:40:01,636
around the space.

3577
04:40:01,936 --> 04:40:07,716
it's good that you came, pushed more to

3578
04:40:07,716 --> 04:40:10,536
be more publicly available.

3579
04:40:10,676 --> 04:40:11,956
Yeah, thanks.

3580
04:40:13,876 --> 04:40:14,236
right, well,

3581
04:40:14,334 --> 04:40:16,054
did anybody else have a question?

3582
04:40:20,434 --> 04:40:26,334
Well, I encourage everybody to run the software because it will actually answer a lot

3583
04:40:26,334 --> 04:40:31,954
of questions anybody does have, and I think it's the best way to really

3584
04:40:31,954 --> 04:40:34,174
get the idea.

3585
04:40:34,174 --> 04:40:34,291
And

3586
04:40:34,291 --> 04:40:39,831
and also, CoinNews is really really good feature

3587
04:40:39,831 --> 04:40:45,711
which for some reason, know, Paul doesn't want to like discuss

3588
04:40:45,711 --> 04:40:51,671
or like, you he discusses it but it's like, you know,

3589
04:40:52,031 --> 04:40:54,211
the test software and it's kind of, I think,

3590
04:40:54,389 --> 04:40:55,149
like a hidden gem.

3591
04:40:55,929 --> 04:40:57,769
Yeah, it's a little bit of a hidden gem.

3592
04:40:58,149 --> 04:41:03,709
CoinNews lets everybody have a news feed with different topics.

3593
04:41:04,109 --> 04:41:09,729
Like for example, could have a news weekly, a US news weekly, cryptocurrency

3594
04:41:09,729 --> 04:41:14,129
news daily, and you can actually subscribe to different types of

3595
04:41:14,306 --> 04:41:19,626
opportune transactions that show up in the memory pool and in the chain that have

3596
04:41:19,626 --> 04:41:23,246
different types of news that you want to see or different types of messages that you

3597
04:41:23,246 --> 04:41:23,746
want to see.

3598
04:41:24,426 --> 04:41:30,326
And so it's a way for people to, in a totally decentralized way, subscribe to

3599
04:41:30,326 --> 04:41:33,686
different people's feeds or to different types of information

3600
04:41:38,083 --> 04:41:41,723
It's available already in our mainchain software.

3601
04:41:42,163 --> 04:41:46,523
So if you run the Drivechain Launcher and you install the mainchain, you'll see a

3602
04:41:46,523 --> 04:41:52,443
toolbar at the top and there's all kinds of extra stuff in there that lets

3603
04:41:52,443 --> 04:41:53,983
you use Bitcoin in the Bitcoin

3604
04:41:59,881 --> 04:42:05,641
And also, start with the CPU

3605
04:42:05,641 --> 04:42:06,581
mining.

3606
04:42:07,861 --> 04:42:13,321
So people can see how it was in the beginning of Bitcoin

3607
04:42:13,321 --> 04:42:14,078
mining.

3608
04:42:15,498 --> 04:42:21,458
I copied from old versions of Bitcoin that I have the old CPU mining code back into

3609
04:42:21,458 --> 04:42:26,998
Bitcoin so that you can mine again using your CPU just for fun.

3610
04:42:27,758 --> 04:42:32,178
And there's also a GUI tool so that you can see the visualization of how the mining

3611
04:42:32,178 --> 04:42:33,918
works. So you can actually see

3612
04:42:34,035 --> 04:42:38,435
the leading zeros increasing up until you get to the proof of work requirement.

3613
04:42:39,015 --> 04:42:39,655
So, it's kind of fun.

3614
04:42:40,235 --> 04:42:42,475
Of course, you're not going to be mining any mainchain Bitcoin.

3615
04:42:43,835 --> 04:42:49,695
Yeah, obviously, but it's fun, you know, just for, you know, to get back in time.

3616
04:42:51,975 --> 04:42:53,875
Yeah, one of Paul's,

3617
04:42:53,993 --> 04:42:58,813
one of the things that's really important to Paul and me is that people experiment with

3618
04:42:58,813 --> 04:43:00,893
the Bitcoin node and they actually use it.

3619
04:43:01,153 --> 04:43:05,693
And they really want a reason for it to be on their computer to encourage the network

3620
04:43:05,693 --> 04:43:10,713
to grow and for people to learn how it works, and to be excited by it, and to really

3621
04:43:10,713 --> 04:43:13,950
feel like there's something that they can do with it instead of just owning

3622
04:43:22,430 --> 04:43:26,490
So when is it going live?

3623
04:43:33,907 --> 04:43:39,887
a while ago and it's not completely finished yet but that

3624
04:43:39,887 --> 04:43:44,587
version might be, maybe that version will get merged in and have BIP9 signaling to

3625
04:43:44,587 --> 04:43:47,787
activate like previous Bitcoin softforks.

3626
04:43:50,607 --> 04:43:53,865
That's good. What's the timeline on that?

3627
04:43:53,865 --> 04:43:54,055
that?

3628
04:43:55,405 --> 04:43:56,765
I can't answer that question.

3629
04:43:57,145 --> 04:43:58,945
You would have to ask Bitcoin Core that question.

3630
04:44:01,665 --> 04:44:03,245
Yeah. You're tired of the gatekeepers?

3631
04:44:08,605 --> 04:44:13,785
Awesome. Hey, how can we work on doing some interoperable stuff

3632
04:44:13,822 --> 04:44:17,142
to do some other stuff with this Drivechain.

3633
04:44:17,642 --> 04:44:20,442
We can out to you on Telegram or...

3634
04:44:20,442 --> 04:44:25,822
Yeah, if you guys join the Drivechain Insiders Telegram...

3635
04:44:27,882 --> 04:44:29,822
Let's see if you go to...

3636
04:44:29,822 --> 04:44:33,742
If you go to the LayerTwo Labs Twitter account, it's a

3637
04:44:33,900 --> 04:44:36,460
link in the bio, the Telegram group.

3638
04:44:37,020 --> 04:44:40,000
There's a ton of people in there that can answer questions all the time.

3639
04:44:42,180 --> 04:44:46,160
I think there are 700 people in there.

3640
04:44:47,300 --> 04:44:50,840
So what are you guys going to do with that lockup mechanism that you guys currently

3641
04:44:50,840 --> 04:44:51,140
have

3642
04:44:53,400 --> 04:44:53,737
using

3643
04:44:53,877 --> 04:44:59,397
these drivechains have you guys I mean there's definitely a lot of people in the

3644
04:44:59,397 --> 04:45:04,657
Bitcoin community that are not necessarily fun but I don't know I think it's just a

3645
04:45:04,657 --> 04:45:10,657
lack of education I just pretty much went last night in troll dish shit out of

3646
04:45:10,657 --> 04:45:13,694
some Bitcoin people but wanted to get your

3647
04:45:13,714 --> 04:45:19,414
input. Yeah, the thing that is the most in common

3648
04:45:19,414 --> 04:45:24,634
with detractors of Drivechain is that they haven't read the BIPs, they haven't run the

3649
04:45:24,634 --> 04:45:28,274
software, they don't even want to try to understand how it works.

3650
04:45:28,974 --> 04:45:33,314
And they have this kind of weird prejudgment that it's bad before trying to understand

3651
04:45:33,314 --> 04:45:33,652
it.

3652
04:45:37,052 --> 04:45:38,232
I don't know.

3653
04:45:38,632 --> 04:45:43,192
can't force them to understand it, so I'm open to any suggestions, but I think people

3654
04:45:43,192 --> 04:45:46,352
like Paul and Henry have been doing a great job trying.

3655
04:45:48,272 --> 04:45:51,792
There's this other thing that I've seen that's pretty common.

3656
04:45:52,672 --> 04:45:53,609
It's like people have

3657
04:45:53,609 --> 04:45:57,629
an ossified mentality where they say Bitcoin's perfect.

3658
04:45:58,249 --> 04:46:02,349
Nothing needs to happen with it, but they don't want to ossify a LayerOne.

3659
04:46:02,849 --> 04:46:05,069
So they don't want to change anything and it's perfect.

3660
04:46:06,069 --> 04:46:10,289
It's just there's a lot of devil speak that comes out of people who are criticizing

3661
04:46:10,289 --> 04:46:12,169
Drivechain as well.

3662
04:46:12,749 --> 04:46:13,566
Contradictory arguments,

3663
04:46:14,206 --> 04:46:18,966
lot of concern trolling, a lot of people jumping on the wave because it's very popular

3664
04:46:18,966 --> 04:46:21,666
right now. It's a very easy way to get a little bit of a following.

3665
04:46:22,866 --> 04:46:28,626
In my opinion, Bitcoin Core makes changes that are way more significant and in my

3666
04:46:28,626 --> 04:46:31,826
opinion dangerous and controversial than Drivechain.

3667
04:46:32,026 --> 04:46:33,524
And they do that every day without

3668
04:46:33,704 --> 04:46:36,964
anybody talking about it because it just gets merged in.

3669
04:46:37,404 --> 04:46:41,744
They'll do things like change how random number generation works, they'll change the

3670
04:46:41,744 --> 04:46:45,804
cryptography libraries around, they'll change networking code, they'll change

3671
04:46:45,804 --> 04:46:50,964
validation code, and there's no BIP signaling for any of that.

3672
04:46:51,084 --> 04:46:51,684
It just happens.

3673
04:46:52,244 --> 04:46:53,464
And if certain people do it,

3674
04:46:53,481 --> 04:46:54,701
it gets merged right away.

3675
04:46:55,561 --> 04:46:57,081
And nobody even knows about it.

3676
04:47:00,321 --> 04:47:05,461
People see the laser eyes and the cultishness is

3677
04:47:05,461 --> 04:47:08,321
a virtue when it's really not.

3678
04:47:08,601 --> 04:47:11,341
It's really a huge amount of political influence.

3679
04:47:12,361 --> 04:47:13,381
And it puts a lot of pressure

3680
04:47:13,438 --> 04:47:17,378
on people who try to change things who aren't vetted.

3681
04:47:18,298 --> 04:47:20,378
Nobody really knows who these people are in any case.

3682
04:47:20,498 --> 04:47:22,438
They're mostly a bunch of anonymous accounts.

3683
04:47:22,998 --> 04:47:28,378
Yeah, it's actually a secret who has merge access to Bitcoin Core.

3684
04:47:28,798 --> 04:47:30,038
personally do not know.

3685
04:47:30,478 --> 04:47:33,318
I'm a contributor so I can see who's a

3686
04:47:33,396 --> 04:47:36,996
member, but you can't tell who actually has merge access.

3687
04:47:39,796 --> 04:47:41,596
Yeah, that's good stuff.

3688
04:47:42,376 --> 04:47:44,476
go ahead. No, go, go.

3689
04:47:45,196 --> 04:47:49,936
Now, I'm just saying, just noticed that the main reason why they want to use the drive

3690
04:47:49,936 --> 04:47:53,353
chains, let's see, you know, they're really isn't

3691
04:47:53,773 --> 04:47:57,233
anyone open to adding any additional application.

3692
04:47:57,433 --> 04:48:01,293
They say that it will destroy the base layer.

3693
04:48:03,553 --> 04:48:07,153
I try to argue with it, but sometimes it's just better to troll them.

3694
04:48:07,653 --> 04:48:13,293
The reality of it is that some people are more inclined to use the

3695
04:48:13,311 --> 04:48:17,671
Lightning Network and using swaps.

3696
04:48:18,031 --> 04:48:23,171
When I first heard about your guys' BIP300, and I know you guys have been talking about

3697
04:48:23,171 --> 04:48:29,131
this since the mid 2000s, and now it's became kind of mainstream

3698
04:48:29,131 --> 04:48:30,391
in Bitcoin talks.

3699
04:48:31,531 --> 04:48:33,231
But I just look at this

3700
04:48:33,268 --> 04:48:38,368
as an opportunity to be able to like, some people may not agree because they say, well,

3701
04:48:38,568 --> 04:48:41,168
we don't want shitcoiners over here on Bitcoin.

3702
04:48:41,908 --> 04:48:47,628
What I look at it as a mechanism to be able to transfer economic energy over

3703
04:48:47,628 --> 04:48:52,588
to Bitcoin, than opposed to you using any type of mainstream centralized exchange

3704
04:48:53,285 --> 04:48:53,705
swap

3705
04:48:55,195 --> 04:49:01,005
yeah exactly exactly as a decentralized mechanism because until then you'll have

3706
04:49:01,005 --> 04:49:06,785
the gatekeepers in these centralized systems that are requiring people to KYC AML which

3707
04:49:06,785 --> 04:49:12,785
takes away your privacy I've a firm component of privacy not necessarily meaning

3708
04:49:12,785 --> 04:49:13,183
that you're

3709
04:49:13,243 --> 04:49:19,123
doing something nefarious, but it means that practicing your sovereignty

3710
04:49:19,863 --> 04:49:25,323
by using mining as a way to be able to transfer assets from chain to chain.

3711
04:49:25,803 --> 04:49:31,783
Whether you agree if you're a shit -coiner or you're big -coiner, but I feel that this

3712
04:49:31,783 --> 04:49:33,063
is the only possible way

3713
04:49:33,140 --> 04:49:34,260
to do it trustlessly.

3714
04:49:34,700 --> 04:49:36,580
But most people can't even understand that.

3715
04:49:36,940 --> 04:49:42,080
I think the biggest thing that they're saying is by actually putting up your

3716
04:49:42,080 --> 04:49:48,080
assets, holding your Bitcoin, and then there's an opportunity where it

3717
04:49:48,080 --> 04:49:53,097
can be compromised, where the miners can be able to distill it maybe after three

3718
04:49:53,097 --> 04:49:53,937
months or so.

3719
04:49:54,337 --> 04:49:57,497
And that's just pretty much like the biggest argument that I've gotten from people.

3720
04:49:58,277 --> 04:50:02,957
Because I like try to go into spaces and try to understand the mindset of why people

3721
04:50:02,957 --> 04:50:04,777
are against it.

3722
04:50:05,137 --> 04:50:10,717
I feel that Drivechains or sidechains are necessary in order to migrate economic

3723
04:50:10,717 --> 04:50:13,055
energy, which is in correlation with

3724
04:50:13,055 --> 04:50:18,535
Satoshi, the reason why we have proof of work protocols in the first place.

3725
04:50:20,255 --> 04:50:25,995
Exactly. it's one thing for them to be against it for their own

3726
04:50:25,995 --> 04:50:28,835
use, but they're trying to control what other people do.

3727
04:50:29,415 --> 04:50:32,995
And I don't know how these control freaks got into Bitcoin

3728
04:50:33,352 --> 04:50:37,212
they want to tell everybody what they can do with their money, but it's very annoying

3729
04:50:37,212 --> 04:50:38,772
and it's holding us back.

3730
04:50:39,372 --> 04:50:45,172
exactly. know what, crypto X, the other thing is that it's very good that Drivechain

3731
04:50:45,172 --> 04:50:45,652
came,

3732
04:50:47,152 --> 04:50:52,970
this, this, like, conversations or debate about Drivechains, because now we,

3733
04:50:52,970 --> 04:50:58,730
see who they are and how much they know and what

3734
04:50:58,730 --> 04:51:04,470
they're planning to like, Drivechain actually expose the dirt in Bitcoin

3735
04:51:04,470 --> 04:51:10,090
community. you know, when you sweep and you bring the dust up,

3736
04:51:10,430 --> 04:51:12,927
it's kind of like now, you know, we see

3737
04:51:12,927 --> 04:51:18,687
kind of things much, much clearly because, I

3738
04:51:18,687 --> 04:51:24,127
believe that what I see from so many sources, mean, like

3739
04:51:24,127 --> 04:51:29,627
listening, watching, reading, stuff like that, I see that more and more is pushing like

3740
04:51:29,627 --> 04:51:31,547
centralization to Bitcoin.

3741
04:51:31,547 --> 04:51:32,884
the

3742
04:51:32,984 --> 04:51:38,864
I mean, I actually, I think

3743
04:51:38,864 --> 04:51:43,244
that they're not even really scared of the miners can steal thing.

3744
04:51:43,684 --> 04:51:45,924
think that they know better than to be worried about that.

3745
04:51:46,144 --> 04:51:50,964
And if you understand how Bitcoin works, you understand why miners won't steal from a

3746
04:51:50,964 --> 04:51:52,684
sidechain that provides a fee

3747
04:51:52,982 --> 04:51:57,822
I think what they're really scared of is the idea that people could activate new things

3748
04:51:57,822 --> 04:51:59,082
without their permission.

3749
04:51:59,602 --> 04:52:03,862
Even if that new thing is a sidechain that doesn't affect the mainchain, they really,

3750
04:52:03,862 --> 04:52:06,842
really want control over what people are doing on Bitcoin.

3751
04:52:07,422 --> 04:52:08,442
And I don't know why.

3752
04:52:08,442 --> 04:52:09,922
I don't know why they're so scared.

3753
04:52:11,062 --> 04:52:12,742
But they need to get over it or

3754
04:52:14,339 --> 04:52:20,239
I think I see also a gatekeeping around the, you know,

3755
04:52:20,839 --> 04:52:26,359
because on Bitcoin, you see the most of the kind of companies

3756
04:52:26,359 --> 04:52:32,359
or who came to use Bitcoin or any project that tried to do a LayerTwo,

3757
04:52:32,756 --> 04:52:38,616
it's not even Bitcoin, it's like completely everything centralized and I see this

3758
04:52:38,616 --> 04:52:43,456
kind of profit kind of incentive

3759
04:52:43,456 --> 04:52:50,216
from

3760
04:52:50,216 --> 04:52:52,714
central centralized. Some people said

3761
04:52:52,834 --> 04:52:57,654
that I'm drinking Kool -Aid, but explain to them why it is centralized and why you don't

3762
04:52:57,654 --> 04:53:02,154
agree with it instead of using a regular Bitcoin Core node.

3763
04:53:04,534 --> 04:53:09,314
first of all, that's off -chain stuff.

3764
04:53:09,554 --> 04:53:12,494
They can say you can run a Lightning node,

3765
04:53:12,731 --> 04:53:13,371
but it's offchain.

3766
04:53:13,951 --> 04:53:18,051
It's completely offchain and it doesn't relate to Bitcoin.

3767
04:53:18,271 --> 04:53:23,971
I said many times that this is very old and crypto X probably know about this, that you

3768
04:53:23,971 --> 04:53:24,951
can create your Bitcoin.

3769
04:53:24,951 --> 04:53:28,551
Yeah, about the technical, why it is with the channels.

3770
04:53:30,131 --> 04:53:32,628
For people to kind of understand, there's obviously like,

3771
04:53:32,768 --> 04:53:38,088
I don't know, I don't know, we all have a sense of different type of decentralization

3772
04:53:38,088 --> 04:53:43,328
and some people don't understand it I wanted to get your input.

3773
04:53:45,368 --> 04:53:51,328
Why people think it, know, because when we say decentralization first principles, Some

3774
04:53:51,328 --> 04:53:52,028
people have a

3775
04:53:52,586 --> 04:53:55,086
misunderstanding of what decentralization means.

3776
04:53:57,366 --> 04:54:02,226
yeah, yeah. like even the itself, the channel,

3777
04:54:03,666 --> 04:54:09,566
even I was researching and actually you cannot, you can do transaction but

3778
04:54:09,566 --> 04:54:12,426
you need to tie to a bigger one and all the

3779
04:54:12,543 --> 04:54:14,643
bigger ones are the centralized exchanges.

3780
04:54:15,283 --> 04:54:17,683
That brings the centralization.

3781
04:54:18,063 --> 04:54:22,783
It's many ways that bring centralization, that you need to be tied to that kind

3782
04:54:22,783 --> 04:54:28,443
of bigger network on Lightning Network.

3783
04:54:28,443 --> 04:54:32,263
Also, had not me but another

3784
04:54:32,501 --> 04:54:38,421
person, he said that he tried to run Lightning nodes and he lost Bitcoin

3785
04:54:38,421 --> 04:54:44,281
because I don't know the keys were not working and he tried to

3786
04:54:44,281 --> 04:54:45,581
reset and stuff like that.

3787
04:54:45,721 --> 04:54:46,221
is a mess.

3788
04:54:46,401 --> 04:54:48,241
Even I tried to download this a mess.

3789
04:54:48,741 --> 04:54:52,121
Lightning network is, I don't know, kind of

3790
04:54:53,818 --> 04:54:58,578
from a technical standpoint is a bit mess.

3791
04:54:58,938 --> 04:55:04,278
if anybody wants to run a Bitcoin channel, they can run,

3792
04:55:04,798 --> 04:55:10,798
they can use the normal node and we'll be off chain, but they utilizing node as a

3793
04:55:10,798 --> 04:55:12,415
server and they can create a

3794
04:55:12,475 --> 04:55:18,235
channel for if they need to do something like sending smaller

3795
04:55:18,235 --> 04:55:23,455
transactions. they can send those transactions and then broadcast as a one transaction

3796
04:55:23,455 --> 04:55:25,775
so they don't pay every time the fee.

3797
04:55:26,555 --> 04:55:32,055
it's kind of like this thing nobody tells them.

3798
04:55:32,055 --> 04:55:32,295
know,

3799
04:55:32,613 --> 04:55:38,293
somebody speaks, they speak like marketing stuff

3800
04:55:38,293 --> 04:55:40,213
or shilling stuff.

3801
04:55:42,453 --> 04:55:48,153
I'll say that Paul actually has a great tweet about this in his highlights where he

3802
04:55:48,153 --> 04:55:52,233
details the idea of why it would actually

3803
04:55:52,330 --> 04:55:58,150
be easier for somebody to steal from the Lightning Network than it would be from a

3804
04:55:58,150 --> 04:56:01,490
Drivechain. I wouldn't even pretend to understand it.

3805
04:56:02,730 --> 04:56:04,750
I also don't know why it's so important.

3806
04:56:06,310 --> 04:56:11,310
There's this entitlement in the mentality of lot of people who are Drivechain

3807
04:56:11,310 --> 04:56:12,070
detractors

3808
04:56:12,287 --> 04:56:15,987
that they have to have everything explained to them.

3809
04:56:16,847 --> 04:56:21,747
there's eight years of information out there for anybody who really wants to go at that

3810
04:56:21,747 --> 04:56:25,207
level. But oftentimes they don't.

3811
04:56:25,767 --> 04:56:30,987
I'm more attracted to Drivechain on the philosophical political level about how it

3812
04:56:30,987 --> 04:56:32,147
would upend to

3813
04:56:32,245 --> 04:56:35,725
current hierarchy of influence in the entire community.

3814
04:56:35,905 --> 04:56:37,965
That's very appealing to me.

3815
04:56:40,405 --> 04:56:43,395
Yeah, that's one of my favorite things about it as well.

3816
04:56:47,325 --> 04:56:48,025
Same.

3817
04:56:49,285 --> 04:56:51,185
It's definitely a big shift, politically speaking.

3818
04:56:52,942 --> 04:56:56,382
It empowers people to just start building.

3819
04:56:56,762 --> 04:57:00,842
right now, I think Paul said that in the beginning of the space,

3820
04:57:02,522 --> 04:57:07,042
you're someone young and bright eyed and you wanna

3821
04:57:07,042 --> 04:57:10,302
build a crypto project,

3822
04:57:12,159 --> 04:57:17,539
it's very limited what you can actually do on Bitcoin,

3823
04:57:18,399 --> 04:57:22,819
not just technically, but also sadly politically speaking.

3824
04:57:23,939 --> 04:57:28,759
have quite the entrenched gatekeepers.

3825
04:57:31,559 --> 04:57:32,117
And that's what

3826
04:57:32,477 --> 04:57:35,797
Yeah, Bitcoin Core are the biggest creator of shitcoins.

3827
04:57:36,237 --> 04:57:38,077
They're the reason that Ethereum exists.

3828
04:57:38,517 --> 04:57:40,097
They're the reason that Zcash exists.

3829
04:57:40,717 --> 04:57:42,077
They're the reason Monero exists.

3830
04:57:42,717 --> 04:57:46,797
A lot of these things where people initially wanted to do them on Bitcoin and

3831
04:57:46,797 --> 04:57:51,097
especially Vitalik Buterin was basically cast away onto his own chain.

3832
04:57:51,097 --> 04:57:51,937
and for the

3833
04:57:52,074 --> 04:57:57,014
longest time it was treated as a joke, but it has built up so much momentum that now

3834
04:57:57,014 --> 04:58:00,854
it's actually surpassed Bitcoin in transaction fees significantly.

3835
04:58:01,954 --> 04:58:06,414
And Bitcoin eventually will only be secured by transaction fees, but you can't forget

3836
04:58:06,414 --> 04:58:07,034
about that.

3837
04:58:08,614 --> 04:58:09,794
So we have to do something.

3838
04:58:10,634 --> 04:58:11,394
Yeah,

3839
04:58:12,032 --> 04:58:17,972
you're completely right and and this is confirmation you know i was saying the same in

3840
04:58:17,972 --> 04:58:22,972
a different way but the same what you are saying that you know all these moxies and the

3841
04:58:22,972 --> 04:58:28,692
gatekeepers are actually responsible for existing gold this uh coins evms

3842
04:58:28,692 --> 04:58:31,952
and stuff like that and you're completely right and i

3843
04:58:31,989 --> 04:58:36,989
would like to please you, CryptoX, you are contributing

3844
04:58:36,989 --> 04:58:40,109
to Bitcoin Core and stuff like that.

3845
04:58:40,309 --> 04:58:43,829
And this information needs to be set out, you know.

3846
04:58:44,629 --> 04:58:50,069
I think you need to kind of, I will please you to speak more about these things,

3847
04:58:50,969 --> 04:58:51,946
because people will

3848
04:58:51,986 --> 04:58:57,806
learn and educate themselves that, you know, it's not from now, it's not something,

3849
04:58:58,326 --> 04:59:00,046
a joke or small, you know?

3850
04:59:01,086 --> 04:59:02,046
Yeah, thank you.

3851
04:59:02,426 --> 04:59:08,126
I tried to, I've been trying to talk more, Paul and Henry and Austin and a lot of other

3852
04:59:08,126 --> 04:59:11,886
people are significantly better at communicating ideas than I am, but

3853
04:59:19,904 --> 04:59:21,564
That's good, let's get this going.

3854
04:59:22,444 --> 04:59:25,224
I'm ready for this thing to

3855
04:59:33,461 --> 04:59:39,421
Other people are creating protocols on Bitcoin, but yet no one's sitting there

3856
04:59:39,421 --> 04:59:43,061
like, you know, protesting, it's different.

3857
04:59:43,881 --> 04:59:49,581
projects don't have certain things going on, yet incentivizing miners,

3858
04:59:50,321 --> 04:59:51,818
that's a bad thing.

3859
04:59:51,818 --> 04:59:57,018
is Bitcoin is

3860
04:59:57,018 --> 05:00:02,338
not a deal.

3861
05:00:02,338 --> 05:00:05,338
So why not get you view?

3862
05:00:06,958 --> 05:00:11,776
I don't know everybody has their own philosophical view So people can agree

3863
05:00:13,856 --> 05:00:19,356
Another thing that Paul talks about a lot is how Drivechain would make Bitcoin much

3864
05:00:19,356 --> 05:00:25,176
more meritocratic again versus very politically influenced how it is now.

3865
05:00:26,516 --> 05:00:31,216
So what is it that we need to do in order to make this adopted?

3866
05:00:31,676 --> 05:00:31,733
We

3867
05:00:31,733 --> 05:00:37,693
gotta push the Bitcoin core developers to see if they can merge it in with this

3868
05:00:37,693 --> 05:00:42,893
merge mining, do we just make it happen and sell them the gold F off?

3869
05:00:44,673 --> 05:00:46,893
That is a very hard question to answer.

3870
05:00:47,253 --> 05:00:48,253
It's really complicated.

3871
05:00:49,253 --> 05:00:51,690
Right now, people can keep pushing for

3872
05:00:51,790 --> 05:00:54,950
more social consensus and teaching people about it.

3873
05:00:56,230 --> 05:00:59,870
I don't recommend spending a lot of time arguing with people on Twitter because it'll

3874
05:00:59,870 --> 05:01:02,030
drive you crazy, but...

3875
05:01:02,030 --> 05:01:05,690
You can at least try to tell people that are your friends about it and see if they like

3876
05:01:05,690 --> 05:01:08,590
it. You could go comment on the GitHub.

3877
05:01:08,850 --> 05:01:10,790
There's a poll request open by Luke Jr.

3878
05:01:11,928 --> 05:01:17,148
and you could comment on that if you want to you can test the software and you can tell

3879
05:01:17,148 --> 05:01:21,488
us what kind of bugs you find or if there's any improvements you want

3880
05:01:21,488 --> 05:01:26,908
yeah I joined in the spaces pretty

3881
05:01:26,908 --> 05:01:31,588
much pretty large money facility

3882
05:01:31,605 --> 05:01:33,545
I've been doing it for quite a long time.

3883
05:01:33,825 --> 05:01:38,925
So a lot of these guys I used to supply them for bitmain and in silicon.

3884
05:01:40,425 --> 05:01:42,045
You know, I used to live in there.

3885
05:01:43,245 --> 05:01:48,645
Some Bitcoin mining pools have published publicly said that they support Drivechain, so

3886
05:01:48,645 --> 05:01:50,865
more people doing that would be good.

3887
05:01:53,043 --> 05:01:59,043
Definitely if you're in mining, your pool know that you see this as a

3888
05:01:59,043 --> 05:02:00,223
way to generate more revenue.

3889
05:02:01,143 --> 05:02:01,183
Yeah.

3890
05:02:04,463 --> 05:02:08,543
Yeah, maybe this is you said, CryptoX,

3891
05:02:09,963 --> 05:02:11,183
about the

3892
05:02:11,980 --> 05:02:14,680
Luke Jr. poll request and stuff like that.

3893
05:02:14,760 --> 05:02:20,740
Maybe that one can be tweeted and we can retweet and ask people to retweeting and

3894
05:02:20,740 --> 05:02:24,740
if it's possible, putting comments or I don't know.

3895
05:02:26,160 --> 05:02:29,180
Yeah, the GitHub poll request, Luke Jr.

3896
05:02:29,180 --> 05:02:31,280
is asking for people to give concept

3897
05:02:31,477 --> 05:02:36,197
acts, which is just saying that you like how he is approaching the pull request.

3898
05:02:36,797 --> 05:02:42,357
So if you want to go on there and say that you concept act the pull request, that would

3899
05:02:42,357 --> 05:02:43,337
be helpful.

3900
05:02:44,757 --> 05:02:45,737
Yeah, that's correct.

3901
05:02:46,017 --> 05:02:47,277
We'll do that.

3902
05:02:48,117 --> 05:02:49,817
It's under the...

3903
05:02:51,615 --> 05:02:55,935
I'm just saying you got the miners supporting this more than the actual grifters are

3904
05:02:55,935 --> 05:02:57,875
coming in here making big noise.

3905
05:02:58,095 --> 05:02:59,355
I'm seeing that happen.

3906
05:02:59,835 --> 05:03:01,535
The people that don't let me.

3907
05:03:01,535 --> 05:03:05,635
Yeah, I think the idea sells itself to miners.

3908
05:03:05,955 --> 05:03:08,755
I don't think that it's hard to convince them at all.

3909
05:03:12,372 --> 05:03:16,592
Yeah, most of people that argue when they're not even miners, they don't even know how

3910
05:03:16,592 --> 05:03:19,712
to set up a damn ASIC or even connect.

3911
05:03:20,232 --> 05:03:23,992
I don't know if they have a, maybe they read too much Google articles and shit on

3912
05:03:23,992 --> 05:03:24,912
Bitcoin magazine.

3913
05:03:26,912 --> 05:03:31,172
The only Bitcoin miner I've seen criticize it is Pierre Richard who

3914
05:03:31,349 --> 05:03:35,469
operates the Riot Mining who gets paid by the government to not mine Bitcoin.

3915
05:03:35,789 --> 05:03:38,449
I don't He's not operating that by any means.

3916
05:03:38,549 --> 05:03:43,289
He's a like researcher or like, you know, head of research or something.

3917
05:03:43,409 --> 05:03:44,409
He's an employee.

3918
05:03:45,629 --> 05:03:49,309
really? When he walks around in the hardhat, he acts like he's running the police.

3919
05:03:49,949 --> 05:03:51,307
I don't know about him

3920
05:03:51,447 --> 05:03:54,827
in a hard hat but uh no he's not he's not running that

3921
05:03:56,547 --> 05:04:02,547
those who criticize drivetrain they they don't even uh run up between nodes it's

3922
05:04:02,547 --> 05:04:04,367
like so funny

3923
05:04:06,407 --> 05:04:11,247
yeah no they're engagement form to give followers here on x that's what

3924
05:04:11,264 --> 05:04:12,564
they're here to do.

3925
05:04:13,124 --> 05:04:16,844
And then convince everyone that this is not a good one.

3926
05:04:16,844 --> 05:04:18,184
Well, that's definitely a real thing.

3927
05:04:18,504 --> 05:04:19,184
Some people

3928
05:04:21,064 --> 05:04:25,664
there, you know, their career, Bitcoin influencer.

3929
05:04:27,004 --> 05:04:29,144
Yeah. Definitely a real thing.

3930
05:04:31,521 --> 05:04:37,181
Maybe they want to be the next speaker on Bitcoin You know the next Bitcoin conference

3931
05:04:37,781 --> 05:04:43,021
You know, that's what they're doing this for but I believe that look a lot of the stuff

3932
05:04:43,021 --> 05:04:47,721
that I hear When I run analytics is actually coming from America like

3933
05:04:48,721 --> 05:04:51,179
Hey, I got a news flash But

3934
05:04:51,319 --> 05:04:55,579
Bitcoin doesn't necessarily rely on the consensus of what America does.

3935
05:04:55,699 --> 05:04:56,559
Bitcoin is global.

3936
05:04:57,399 --> 05:05:01,599
So there's other mining farms around the world that are actually contributing cash

3937
05:05:01,599 --> 05:05:02,959
power to sustain the network.

3938
05:05:04,459 --> 05:05:09,019
you know, it seems like the guys here obviously have some alternative motives.

3939
05:05:09,539 --> 05:05:10,959
I don't know what the reason for,

3940
05:05:11,136 --> 05:05:14,296
but obviously we see a lot of these large corporations.

3941
05:05:14,296 --> 05:05:19,816
I don't want to sound like a tin half oil, but we also can see that these people have

3942
05:05:19,816 --> 05:05:21,396
some type of corporate interest.

3943
05:05:21,636 --> 05:05:26,896
Big corporations are moving in and they're trying to dictate and control the hashing of

3944
05:05:26,896 --> 05:05:28,556
mining power, and they don't want this to happen.

3945
05:05:28,996 --> 05:05:31,056
The reason why I think that they don't want it

3946
05:05:31,134 --> 05:05:36,894
happen. Because it actually takes away money that they develop from the service piece.

3947
05:05:38,154 --> 05:05:39,794
some of these centralized exchanges.

3948
05:05:40,494 --> 05:05:45,494
Whatever these bridges and So, I don't know what else to say.

3949
05:05:45,754 --> 05:05:49,514
Because when we look at hacks, like most people don't talk about cyber security.

3950
05:05:49,874 --> 05:05:51,051
When it comes down

3951
05:05:51,211 --> 05:05:56,911
to like bridges and that's the reason why in the EVM world, why you have a lot of these

3952
05:05:56,911 --> 05:06:01,711
scam projects, because a lot of these swaps and bridges end up getting exploited.

3953
05:06:02,291 --> 05:06:08,091
But if you have a proof of work concept using hashing, you necessarily

3954
05:06:08,091 --> 05:06:09,511
eliminate that risk.

3955
05:06:10,251 --> 05:06:11,008
And that's what I

3956
05:06:11,008 --> 05:06:16,948
feel that this the drivechains can do for the Bitcoin community by keeping

3957
05:06:16,948 --> 05:06:21,048
it trustless but teaches his own

3958
05:06:21,048 --> 05:06:26,608
and also will pump their pegs for sure

3959
05:06:32,246 --> 05:06:33,666
I'm supportive of you guys.

3960
05:06:34,126 --> 05:06:38,086
I just feel like if we can do more spaces on educating

3961
05:06:38,086 --> 05:06:43,726
people, think the biggest thing like they said is

3962
05:06:43,726 --> 05:06:45,446
you locking up your Bitcoin.

3963
05:06:47,066 --> 05:06:50,923
And if you guys can basically clarify and convey that

3964
05:06:51,103 --> 05:06:56,323
to kind of break it down for a lot of the newbies that call themselves OG Bitcoiners.

3965
05:06:57,103 --> 05:07:02,123
That would be great, you know, to kind of dumb it down a little bit, because I think

3966
05:07:02,123 --> 05:07:06,483
that sometimes they don't quite grasp the concept because they're not tech.

3967
05:07:08,463 --> 05:07:10,643
So I think education

3968
05:07:10,880 --> 05:07:16,660
is cheap and obviously we'll know who's the corporate

3969
05:07:16,660 --> 05:07:21,640
impetrators that come in because they just want to dismiss it.

3970
05:07:21,740 --> 05:07:24,700
They don't have a real informative

3971
05:07:24,700 --> 05:07:30,640
way to be able to refute it or to debate

3972
05:07:30,640 --> 05:07:30,838
it

3973
05:07:30,878 --> 05:07:35,598
because you basically already disclosed all the text of why this is not

3974
05:07:37,318 --> 05:07:43,318
Why this won't compromise or affect them of the base court You know the base layer

3975
05:07:43,318 --> 05:07:48,838
chain of Bitcoin, and I think that they think this is a hard fork But they don't

3976
05:07:48,838 --> 05:07:50,795
necessarily understand that it is not a hard

3977
05:07:50,835 --> 05:07:51,215
fork.

3978
05:07:52,435 --> 05:07:53,535
I don't know.

3979
05:07:53,635 --> 05:07:54,675
That's just my input.

3980
05:07:56,255 --> 05:07:57,895
Thank you for your.

3981
05:07:57,895 --> 05:07:58,615
Yeah, thank you.

3982
05:08:01,695 --> 05:08:05,315
It's definitely education is very important.

3983
05:08:05,575 --> 05:08:09,575
think, you know, still the vast, vast majority of

3984
05:08:10,753 --> 05:08:12,893
stakeholders, Bitcoiners,

3985
05:08:14,353 --> 05:08:18,873
they don't really know what this is and they don't know the promise.

3986
05:08:20,913 --> 05:08:26,433
yeah, think that more and more so miners are going to understand it

3987
05:08:26,433 --> 05:08:30,710
because they're the most the most incentivized

3988
05:08:37,790 --> 05:08:43,470
I'm looking forward to seeing how next few years play out because

3989
05:08:43,470 --> 05:08:47,490
I really think this is the most bullish thing possible for Bitcoin.

3990
05:08:48,870 --> 05:08:50,667
To just absorb

3991
05:08:50,747 --> 05:08:51,497
everything else

3992
05:08:53,027 --> 05:08:57,487
yeah you know when uh blockstream first announced that they were going to work on peer

3993
05:08:57,487 --> 05:09:02,627
-to -peer sidechains it caused a total crash of the altcoin market and we could do that

3994
05:09:02,627 --> 05:09:08,627
again i remember that was like the the the topic of discussion for weeks and weeks

3995
05:09:08,627 --> 05:09:10,267
oh yeah months

3996
05:09:12,065 --> 05:09:17,105
Maybe that is a good phrase, peer to peer, to be used more.

3997
05:09:18,065 --> 05:09:23,425
I think the most,

3998
05:09:24,105 --> 05:09:27,165
when they speak, say, oh, Drivechain will do changes.

3999
05:09:27,465 --> 05:09:30,265
It doesn't make any change to LayerOne.

4000
05:09:30,862 --> 05:09:35,342
Like, I mean, it's very simple to be understood, but...

4001
05:09:37,082 --> 05:09:38,482
Yeah, I agree.

4002
05:09:42,242 --> 05:09:47,842
Oh, just to mention this, I don't know if you're on LinkedIn, but also I saw there

4003
05:09:47,842 --> 05:09:50,539
some kind of post about

4004
05:09:50,659 --> 05:09:56,099
Drivechain comparing with not Ordinal says a protocol,

4005
05:09:56,499 --> 05:10:01,919
to BRC69 to BRC20 and stuff like

4006
05:10:01,919 --> 05:10:05,099
that. But they needed to educate them.

4007
05:10:05,539 --> 05:10:10,497
Yeah. One problem a lot of people have is understanding that Drivechain is a

4008
05:10:10,517 --> 05:10:15,877
way to implement peer -to -peer sidechains, a two -way peg in blind merge mining, for

4009
05:10:15,877 --> 05:10:17,577
abstract sidechain ideas.

4010
05:10:17,997 --> 05:10:20,877
It's not for one specific idea, it's for any idea.

4011
05:10:21,357 --> 05:10:27,277
It's not just to have a decentralized exchange or just to have ZK snarks or just to

4012
05:10:27,277 --> 05:10:30,397
have scaling. You can do all of these different things.

4013
05:10:30,474 --> 05:10:33,214
It's not a new soft fork for every change.

4014
05:10:33,234 --> 05:10:38,034
It's one change that lets us do all of these things and has a system to activate these

4015
05:10:38,034 --> 05:10:42,474
things and to incentivize them and to filter out the bad ones.

4016
05:10:43,814 --> 05:10:47,714
So I think it's really hard for people to understand that it's an idea that lets people

4017
05:10:47,714 --> 05:10:50,411
create new things instead of an idea that just

4018
05:10:50,411 --> 05:10:51,611
activates one thing.

4019
05:10:54,251 --> 05:10:55,551
Actually, Drivechain is a platform.

4020
05:10:56,191 --> 05:10:56,391
Yeah.

4021
05:11:00,311 --> 05:11:03,051
Yeah, and people say, oh, well, why don't you do it on Liquid?

4022
05:11:03,331 --> 05:11:08,811
And that's because Liquid is technically a sidechain, even though Blockstream have come

4023
05:11:08,811 --> 05:11:10,131
out and said it wasn't a sidechain.

4024
05:11:10,529 --> 05:11:12,129
now they say it's a sidechain again, but whatever.

4025
05:11:12,929 --> 05:11:16,169
It only does exchange to exchange transfers.

4026
05:11:17,089 --> 05:11:22,129
So you can't do Drivechain on that because it doesn't have all of the other things that

4027
05:11:22,129 --> 05:11:27,149
you need to propose new sidechains and to activate them and to deposit and withdraw

4028
05:11:27,149 --> 05:11:30,326
from them without the multisig approving it.

4029
05:11:30,526 --> 05:11:36,046
it's a totally different thing yeah yeah it's a platform it's a universal

4030
05:11:36,046 --> 05:11:40,286
platform for you know innovation on bitcoin maybe once

4031
05:11:40,286 --> 05:11:46,266
yeah well let's start doing

4032
05:11:46,266 --> 05:11:48,926
more of these spaces and i know youtube videos the ,

4033
05:11:51,164 --> 05:11:56,064
don't mean to undermine anyone, but I think we hosted this every Friday.

4034
05:11:57,284 --> 05:11:58,944
So please join us.

4035
05:11:59,764 --> 05:12:01,244
think it's Friday, 2 p.m.

4036
05:12:01,704 --> 05:12:04,564
Eastern time in the U.S.

4037
05:12:04,644 --> 05:12:05,624
Eastern time zone.

4038
05:12:08,464 --> 05:12:09,324
Yeah, 10 p.m.

4039
05:12:09,324 --> 05:12:10,241
or 10 a

4040
05:12:10,241 --> 05:12:11,341
Pacific, sorry.

4041
05:12:13,581 --> 05:12:19,381
Yeah, we sometimes do our spaces with

4042
05:12:19,381 --> 05:12:25,361
Punisher, and I hope he will activate and retweet more with

4043
05:12:25,361 --> 05:12:27,101
his bigger account.

4044
05:12:28,201 --> 05:12:30,198
But we speak about

4045
05:12:30,198 --> 05:12:34,298
Drivechains, you know, kind of a lot of time.

4046
05:12:35,278 --> 05:12:36,998
we are spreading the message.

4047
05:12:37,538 --> 05:12:40,638
I'll do some spaces, I'll break down the tech on it.

4048
05:12:40,838 --> 05:12:45,018
a lot of times you'll have like people that are, I don't know.

4049
05:12:46,598 --> 05:12:49,058
I just think that they already have alternative models.

4050
05:12:49,118 --> 05:12:50,156
They're not open for

4051
05:12:50,316 --> 05:12:51,656
like open debate.

4052
05:12:53,376 --> 05:12:59,236
But I think we can be respectful, but I love the, I don't know, love to go to

4053
05:12:59,236 --> 05:13:00,816
battle with like real engineers.

4054
05:13:01,016 --> 05:13:06,996
I don't want a front end developer, some guy that does like websites

4055
05:13:06,996 --> 05:13:07,736
we're living.

4056
05:13:09,296 --> 05:13:10,113
And then all of a

4057
05:13:10,153 --> 05:13:14,693
sudden we have like, we engage in some type of software development that doesn't

4058
05:13:14,693 --> 05:13:18,973
necessarily understand Bitcoin Core and BIPs and stuff like that.

4059
05:13:19,273 --> 05:13:24,993
I'll talk more about it on my main account and just get awareness

4060
05:13:24,993 --> 05:13:29,853
out there. I don't necessarily think that like if Bitcoin, like here it is from a

4061
05:13:29,853 --> 05:13:30,070
philosophical

4062
05:13:30,070 --> 05:13:35,470
represents freedom. If this thing does not affect

4063
05:13:35,470 --> 05:13:37,070
the base layer,

4064
05:13:38,430 --> 05:13:40,390
why are we so against it?

4065
05:13:41,810 --> 05:13:46,530
Why are people against the idea of using Drivechains,

4066
05:13:47,730 --> 05:13:49,650
but they want to continue

4067
05:13:50,248 --> 05:13:55,708
like Coinbase and all these other Binance Smartchains and they want to do KYC and AML.

4068
05:13:56,128 --> 05:13:58,268
I said what was the whole purpose of joining cryptocurrency?

4069
05:13:59,028 --> 05:14:02,568
If you want to go and do that, go stay your ass on Wall Street.

4070
05:14:03,148 --> 05:14:05,268
Go KYC, go do all that.

4071
05:14:05,428 --> 05:14:07,208
Fill out an accredited investor form.

4072
05:14:07,748 --> 05:14:09,968
But all we're doing is say, hey, have control of

4073
05:14:09,985 --> 05:14:15,365
your assets do it in the trustless mechanism where it doesn't affect

4074
05:14:15,365 --> 05:14:20,325
anyone you still have control over your assets by doing so and I think people

4075
05:14:20,325 --> 05:14:25,865
don't want to participate in these type of ecosystems because they don't necessarily

4076
05:14:25,865 --> 05:14:29,885
understand like true decentralization I I said Bitcoin was

4077
05:14:29,942 --> 05:14:35,922
meant to be autonomous but my hair I don't want to go

4078
05:14:35,922 --> 05:14:41,582
off the chain on this one but it was supposed to be autonomous it was not supposed to

4079
05:14:41,582 --> 05:14:47,422
be you know where we off -ramp it was supposed to be able to where we can actually trade

4080
05:14:47,422 --> 05:14:49,900
use Bitcoin to way to

4081
05:14:49,900 --> 05:14:55,220
settle payments, you know, that's That was Satoshi's vision.

4082
05:14:55,320 --> 05:15:00,860
But yet here we are with the centralized banking institutions They're coming in here

4083
05:15:00,860 --> 05:15:01,920
with their own ideas.

4084
05:15:02,820 --> 05:15:06,760
And Then they're trying to make this they're trying to centralize decentralization

4085
05:15:08,040 --> 05:15:08,900
I don't know.

4086
05:15:09,060 --> 05:15:09,680
I'm a I'm

4087
05:15:09,857 --> 05:15:15,257
decentralized maxi. Anything, any component that deals with centralization, I'm against

4088
05:15:15,257 --> 05:15:21,257
it. I believe in first principles of crypto and I feel that that's the

4089
05:15:21,257 --> 05:15:26,437
only way that you can actually gain sovereignty is by controlling your own assets and

4090
05:15:26,437 --> 05:15:29,477
being able to do it in a trusted layer which is proof of work.

4091
05:15:29,477 --> 05:15:29,815
And

4092
05:15:30,095 --> 05:15:31,195
so I'm for this.

4093
05:15:32,195 --> 05:15:36,755
And I would definitely like to have more conversations with like -minded individuals.

4094
05:15:38,235 --> 05:15:40,595
with that being said, yield back the floor.

4095
05:15:41,755 --> 05:15:42,935
Awesome, thank you.

4096
05:15:42,995 --> 05:15:47,735
Thank you. All right, I'm going to have to actually drop off now.

4097
05:15:47,875 --> 05:15:49,772
got something else booked

4098
05:15:49,852 --> 05:15:55,432
here in a few minutes, but it's been great to hang out here for the last four and half

4099
05:15:55,432 --> 05:15:58,912
hours. Yeah, I think this is a great time to end it.

4100
05:15:58,912 --> 05:16:01,072
It was really nice talking to you all, all you guys.

4101
05:16:01,392 --> 05:16:06,012
if you want to come back next Friday, Paul will be here, usually for the first several

4102
05:16:06,012 --> 05:16:06,632
hours.

4103
05:16:08,212 --> 05:16:09,392
We are always here.

4104
05:16:09,729 --> 05:16:15,589
bro. Maybe we can prepare some interview questions for

4105
05:16:15,589 --> 05:16:17,669
you next time, CryptX.

4106
05:16:18,989 --> 05:16:20,829
Oh yeah, if you want to, that's fine with me.

4107
05:16:21,849 --> 05:16:24,809
Alright, cool. yeah, I guess we can go ahead and end it.

4108
05:16:25,609 --> 05:16:26,229
Thank you everybody.

4109
05:16:26,829 --> 05:16:28,209
Yep, see you guys later.

4110
05:16:28,669 --> 05:16:29,669
See you.

4111
05:16:30,507 --> 05:16:30,867
Bye.