1 00:00:00,324 --> 00:00:10,324 And although these are fun, privately, now I'm thinking, how many of these are we going to do? 2 00:00:10,324 --> 00:00:15,324 Because we've done very many, and when's the last time we heard something truly new? 3 00:00:15,324 --> 00:00:23,324 Basically, never. I don't know. Maybe we still do. I don't know. 4 00:00:23,324 --> 00:00:35,324 I guess we had BitVM. But even that, I think people still are way behind what they could learn if they just read the drivechain.info slash literature section. 5 00:00:35,324 --> 00:00:45,324 Still much more advanced than five, six, seven years later than the commentary in this space, usually. 6 00:00:45,324 --> 00:00:50,324 But I don't know. Here we are. It's Friday. Happy Friday to all, if anyone. 7 00:00:50,324 --> 00:01:00,324 The thing is, we haven't really had any of the critics come here. They are just not in a while. 8 00:01:00,324 --> 00:01:10,324 A long time ago, we had – by a long time ago, I mean a month ago, or whatever. 9 00:01:10,324 --> 00:01:23,324 Who did we have? Mr. Hoddle, we had that one time. And we had Shinobi that one time. But they didn't really say anything. 10 00:01:23,324 --> 00:01:30,324 Shinobi said just a bunch of confused nonsense about how he's – in some sense, it's bad because miners feel compelled to do something, 11 00:01:30,324 --> 00:01:36,324 but in another sense, the t-shirt argument, it's not bad because that requires a lot of capital. 12 00:01:36,324 --> 00:01:41,324 It's complete. He has it both ways. 13 00:01:41,324 --> 00:01:51,324 And we had Alex B., who constantly deletes the spaces, where he's always complaining that sidechain node is really bad because it's mandatory. 14 00:01:51,324 --> 00:01:58,324 And then he explains it's so expensive that people won't be able to afford doing it. 15 00:01:58,324 --> 00:02:03,324 So no one will do it. So either he thinks everyone's doing it or no one's doing it. 16 00:02:03,324 --> 00:02:06,324 These are like bottom-of-the-barrel terrible thoughts. 17 00:02:06,324 --> 00:02:14,324 And like I always say, I always say to these people, just write down an example on paper because there is no example. 18 00:02:14,324 --> 00:02:22,324 There's absolutely none whatsoever of this effect where the overlapping benefits and costs of sidechains are very – 19 00:02:22,324 --> 00:02:27,324 so I think that what I should do instead is just do the video with Peter Todd, but I just haven't gotten around to – 20 00:02:27,324 --> 00:02:35,324 I went through it two spaces ago, two weeks ago, and I wanted to make like some slides or something. 21 00:02:35,324 --> 00:02:42,324 I'm too lazy. Maybe I'll get some help because I have them kind of like sketched out. 22 00:02:42,324 --> 00:02:47,324 But I wanted to make like some visual aids or something. 23 00:02:47,324 --> 00:02:51,324 So I was thinking I'd probably do that today instead of this. 24 00:02:51,324 --> 00:02:58,324 But here we are to do this space, and I don't know what people will get out of it. 25 00:02:58,324 --> 00:03:05,324 But if anyone has any questions, they can certainly come up and ask. 26 00:03:05,324 --> 00:03:20,324 I guess the big news this week was that Michael Saylor came out in favor of L2s and in favor of miners obtaining more revenue from things like ordinals and applications built on BTC. 27 00:03:20,324 --> 00:03:26,324 Whereas before he was the digital gold, Bitcoin is a useless rock camp. 28 00:03:26,324 --> 00:03:42,324 So he's learning that it won't be digital gold unless miners are making a ton of money and unless there's no competing version of Bitcoin that is almost identical but that is used in applications. 29 00:03:42,324 --> 00:03:45,324 So that's something. 30 00:03:45,324 --> 00:04:04,324 Eventually, everyone will come around. Of course, the only question is how much damage is done in the time it takes for everyone to wise up. 31 00:04:04,324 --> 00:04:09,324 But yeah, here we are. 32 00:04:09,324 --> 00:04:20,324 There is something else that maybe I could comment on, which is that some people are annoyed when I criticize the Lightning Network. 33 00:04:20,324 --> 00:04:28,324 And they say, well, that's bad strategy. We should just lie. We should say things we know are false for political reasons. 34 00:04:28,324 --> 00:04:33,324 And there's some truth to that, of course. 35 00:04:33,324 --> 00:04:35,324 We've all got to do that to some extent. 36 00:04:35,324 --> 00:04:44,324 But my point of view is really that if we start to compromise on the truth too much, then we're screwed no matter what. 37 00:04:44,324 --> 00:04:47,324 I see it as a fall of Rome situation. 38 00:04:47,324 --> 00:04:53,324 And so the only way that Bitcoin can be killed is if everyone starts lying about what it is. 39 00:04:53,324 --> 00:04:58,324 And then eventually every CBDC will just be called Bitcoin, even though it'll be the US dollar. 40 00:04:58,324 --> 00:05:04,324 But we'll just call it everything. And Venmo will be just called the Lightning Wallet. 41 00:05:04,324 --> 00:05:10,324 So when we do stuff like that, we're just killing Bitcoin. 42 00:05:10,324 --> 00:05:14,324 So every lie we tell about Bitcoin is just killing it more. 43 00:05:14,324 --> 00:05:22,324 And so I see it as really the same project, telling the truth about... 44 00:05:22,324 --> 00:05:28,324 But, you know, a lot of people say, well, if you ever criticize the Lightning Network, then you're criticizing Bitcoin. 45 00:05:28,324 --> 00:05:32,324 And then you're giving fuel to Bitcoin's enemies. 46 00:05:32,324 --> 00:05:37,324 And I think that's a terrible point of view. I just think it's ridiculous. 47 00:05:37,324 --> 00:05:41,324 We're just proving the enemies correct if we are not self-critical. 48 00:05:41,324 --> 00:05:44,324 So anyway, that's a thought. 49 00:05:44,324 --> 00:05:47,324 Anyway, now we have a speaker. Hello. 50 00:05:47,324 --> 00:05:51,324 Daniel Sobhani. 51 00:05:51,324 --> 00:05:55,324 With lots of extra A's. So hello. Welcome. 52 00:05:55,324 --> 00:06:00,324 I have a question about some of the benefits of drivechains. 53 00:06:00,324 --> 00:06:03,324 I've understood it as a way to get new features. 54 00:06:03,324 --> 00:06:09,324 But sometimes on podcasts, people talk about it as if it's a way to get cheaper transactions. 55 00:06:09,324 --> 00:06:13,324 And I don't understand how that could work. 56 00:06:13,324 --> 00:06:18,324 I don't know how a different drivechain could allow for cheaper transaction costs. 57 00:06:18,324 --> 00:06:22,324 Wouldn't the transaction costs still depend on the L1 fees? 58 00:06:22,324 --> 00:06:24,324 Yeah, that's a good question. 59 00:06:25,324 --> 00:06:30,324 The answer is that it's a more abundant block space. 60 00:06:30,324 --> 00:06:33,324 That lowers the transaction fee. 61 00:06:33,324 --> 00:06:41,324 And it's true that every coin that circulates in the drivechain had to come from L1. 62 00:06:41,324 --> 00:06:46,324 Excuse me. Had to come from L1. 63 00:06:46,324 --> 00:06:50,324 Sorry, I have to just get myself some water. 64 00:06:54,324 --> 00:06:59,324 Sorry. So each coin had to come from L1. 65 00:06:59,324 --> 00:07:08,324 But one single L1 transaction ever from like hundreds of years ago, 66 00:07:08,324 --> 00:07:11,324 that can support an unlimited number of drivechain transactions. 67 00:07:11,324 --> 00:07:15,324 So the timeline would be something like today you would, 68 00:07:15,324 --> 00:07:21,324 some very rich person like Michael Saylor puts 20,000 BTC on layer one. 69 00:07:21,324 --> 00:07:24,324 He moves them from L1 to L2. 70 00:07:24,324 --> 00:07:28,324 And he pays an $8 transaction fee. 71 00:07:28,324 --> 00:07:31,324 This is all today. 72 00:07:31,324 --> 00:07:36,324 And then never again does anyone deposit L1 to L2. 73 00:07:36,324 --> 00:07:40,324 So there's no more coins moving back and forth. 74 00:07:40,324 --> 00:07:44,324 But on L2, those 20,000 coins can be split, can change, 75 00:07:44,324 --> 00:07:47,324 can move to a different person, person A, B, C. 76 00:07:47,324 --> 00:07:52,324 You can break off one millionth of a coin and send it to Jeff, 77 00:07:52,324 --> 00:07:56,324 who sends it to Eric, and they send it all around in a big loop. 78 00:07:56,324 --> 00:07:59,324 And they can just keep doing that forever. 79 00:07:59,324 --> 00:08:02,324 And when they're over there, they have the L2 block space, 80 00:08:02,324 --> 00:08:04,324 and they pay the L2 fee. 81 00:08:04,324 --> 00:08:09,324 So those L2 transactions pay the smaller fee. 82 00:08:09,324 --> 00:08:13,324 And, yes, it's true that each one of them required an L1 transaction, 83 00:08:13,324 --> 00:08:15,324 but they all require the same one. 84 00:08:15,324 --> 00:08:18,324 I have one transaction from a long time ago that Michael Saylor, 85 00:08:18,324 --> 00:08:22,324 or whoever it is, Roger Ver, whatever, that they made. 86 00:08:22,324 --> 00:08:24,324 Does that make sense? 87 00:08:24,324 --> 00:08:27,324 It does make sense. 88 00:08:27,324 --> 00:08:29,324 And that's a good explanation. 89 00:08:29,324 --> 00:08:32,324 I have a follow-up question, but if there's other people, 90 00:08:32,324 --> 00:08:34,324 I don't want to take up too much space. 91 00:08:34,324 --> 00:08:37,324 Well, so far you seem to be the only one with the speaker title. 92 00:08:37,324 --> 00:08:38,324 Okay. 93 00:08:38,324 --> 00:08:40,324 Who wants to go for it? 94 00:08:40,324 --> 00:08:47,324 The next question is transactions can't happen between drivechains. 95 00:08:47,324 --> 00:08:50,324 Is that correct? 96 00:08:50,324 --> 00:08:53,324 Yeah. 97 00:08:53,324 --> 00:08:56,324 Whether or not they are happening between drivechains is, like, 98 00:08:56,324 --> 00:09:00,324 a question that is only, like, a human could answer or someone that. 99 00:09:00,324 --> 00:09:01,324 Oh, okay. 100 00:09:01,324 --> 00:09:04,324 So a private transaction can happen, but there's no, like, 101 00:09:04,324 --> 00:09:08,324 at a protocol level you can't send coins from one drivechain. 102 00:09:08,324 --> 00:09:10,324 If you have, let's say, a main chain L1, 103 00:09:10,324 --> 00:09:14,324 and then you have sidechain number 5 and sidechain number 8, 5 and 8, 104 00:09:14,324 --> 00:09:18,324 right, when you run a node of sidechain number 5, 105 00:09:18,324 --> 00:09:21,324 it only sees what's happening on sidechain number 5. 106 00:09:21,324 --> 00:09:24,324 So you could do an HTLC on 5, 107 00:09:24,324 --> 00:09:27,324 and you could do the same HTLC with the same hash, 108 00:09:27,324 --> 00:09:30,324 same hashing function and the same preimage and same magic R, 109 00:09:30,324 --> 00:09:35,324 same magic H, whatever, on 5 and 8, and then there could be a swap. 110 00:09:36,324 --> 00:09:39,324 But the only way anyone will know is if they run both nodes 111 00:09:39,324 --> 00:09:43,324 and then have some kind of conclusion based off of that information. 112 00:09:43,324 --> 00:09:46,324 So you either need a human being who's running both, 113 00:09:46,324 --> 00:09:49,324 or some kind of software, like, you know, 114 00:09:49,324 --> 00:09:52,324 we use software all the time that uses multiple subcomponents, 115 00:09:52,324 --> 00:09:57,324 like lots of things use JavaScript runtime environment 116 00:09:57,324 --> 00:10:00,324 or, like, Microsoft C++ redistributable or something. 117 00:10:00,324 --> 00:10:01,324 You know what I mean? 118 00:10:01,324 --> 00:10:04,324 Like if you download a game and it has, like, DirectX, that kind of thing. 119 00:10:04,324 --> 00:10:05,324 Yeah, yeah. 120 00:10:05,324 --> 00:10:09,324 We use all the time, we use software that is made up of other software. 121 00:10:09,324 --> 00:10:14,324 And so you could have a piece of software that uses 5 and 8. 122 00:10:14,324 --> 00:10:15,324 Oh, okay. 123 00:10:15,324 --> 00:10:17,324 But that would be, like, its own thing. 124 00:10:17,324 --> 00:10:18,324 And you see what I mean? 125 00:10:18,324 --> 00:10:22,324 Like, this is really the type of conclusion that only a human being would draw. 126 00:10:22,324 --> 00:10:23,324 Yes. 127 00:10:23,324 --> 00:10:26,324 There would be nothing inherent about the transaction 128 00:10:26,324 --> 00:10:31,324 from the point of view of the sidechain number 5 node. 129 00:10:31,324 --> 00:10:34,324 The sidechain number 5 node, it just sees it as a transaction. 130 00:10:34,324 --> 00:10:36,324 It doesn't really know that it is. 131 00:10:36,324 --> 00:10:40,324 It doesn't have an understanding that sidechain 6 exists. 132 00:10:40,324 --> 00:10:41,324 Right. 133 00:10:41,324 --> 00:10:43,324 So in that sense, the answer to your question is no, 134 00:10:43,324 --> 00:10:45,324 but there's a completely different sense in which the answer could be yes, 135 00:10:45,324 --> 00:10:49,324 because nothing stops you from building something where it's written 136 00:10:49,324 --> 00:10:51,324 so that it either happens on all the sidechains 137 00:10:51,324 --> 00:10:53,324 or it does not happen on any of them. 138 00:10:53,324 --> 00:10:55,324 And in that sense, it is, from the human point of view, 139 00:10:55,324 --> 00:10:57,324 it is on all of them at once. 140 00:10:57,324 --> 00:11:00,324 Because it's either on all of them or it doesn't happen. 141 00:11:00,324 --> 00:11:01,324 That's good. 142 00:11:01,324 --> 00:11:06,324 Thanks for explaining that. 143 00:11:06,324 --> 00:11:09,324 I'm good. 144 00:11:09,324 --> 00:11:10,324 Cool. 145 00:11:10,324 --> 00:11:11,324 Okay. 146 00:11:11,324 --> 00:11:15,324 Thanks for your question. 147 00:11:15,324 --> 00:11:16,324 Okay. 148 00:11:16,324 --> 00:11:20,324 Great. 149 00:11:20,324 --> 00:11:23,324 Two questions down. 150 00:11:23,324 --> 00:11:26,324 100 to go. 151 00:11:26,324 --> 00:11:29,324 7,000 to go. 152 00:11:30,324 --> 00:11:31,324 So those are some pretty good ones. 153 00:11:31,324 --> 00:11:48,324 We'll see if we get any more questions. 154 00:11:48,324 --> 00:11:53,324 No one has a question just yet. 155 00:11:53,324 --> 00:11:54,324 Don't be shy. 156 00:11:54,324 --> 00:11:55,324 Come on up. 157 00:11:56,324 --> 00:11:58,324 Or comment. 158 00:11:58,324 --> 00:11:59,324 Hello. 159 00:11:59,324 --> 00:12:00,324 We have someone regular. 160 00:12:00,324 --> 00:12:01,324 Yes. 161 00:12:01,324 --> 00:12:02,324 Hello. 162 00:12:02,324 --> 00:12:03,324 Hey there, Paul. 163 00:12:03,324 --> 00:12:05,324 We met a few years ago at Baltic Honey Badger. 164 00:12:05,324 --> 00:12:08,324 I really appreciate the work you're doing. 165 00:12:08,324 --> 00:12:10,324 I do have a question, though. 166 00:12:10,324 --> 00:12:14,324 A lot of the activity on layer one, like looking at Bitcoin today, 167 00:12:14,324 --> 00:12:18,324 is related to ordinals and inscriptions. 168 00:12:18,324 --> 00:12:21,324 I mean, have you given any thought as to whether that's something that 169 00:12:22,324 --> 00:12:25,324 drivechains would want to support or could support? 170 00:12:25,324 --> 00:12:28,324 Just wanted to get your comment on that. 171 00:12:28,324 --> 00:12:29,324 Right. 172 00:12:29,324 --> 00:12:32,324 The ordinals thing, the story of the ordinals, there's a lot to unpack. 173 00:12:32,324 --> 00:12:36,324 I feel like it's when they make Bitcoin into like a HBO series, 174 00:12:36,324 --> 00:12:40,324 I think there'll probably be like a whole season on that or whatever. 175 00:12:40,324 --> 00:12:45,324 But ordinals is about more than just what I call BitAssets. 176 00:12:45,324 --> 00:12:47,324 A BitAssets idea is very old. 177 00:12:47,324 --> 00:12:53,324 This goes back to like counterparty colored coins. 178 00:12:53,324 --> 00:12:55,324 Many Rosenfeld invented color coins. 179 00:12:55,324 --> 00:12:58,324 I think it was like January 20. 180 00:12:58,324 --> 00:13:02,324 Twenty twelve or something like ancient history. 181 00:13:02,324 --> 00:13:06,324 Random fact, I think he just got called into the Israeli Army Reserve or 182 00:13:06,324 --> 00:13:07,324 something. 183 00:13:07,324 --> 00:13:09,324 So that's. 184 00:13:09,324 --> 00:13:11,324 Weird fact. 185 00:13:11,324 --> 00:13:14,324 Anyway, and then, you know, how Finney talked about collectible trading 186 00:13:14,324 --> 00:13:15,324 cards. 187 00:13:15,324 --> 00:13:17,324 So this is like a very, very, very old idea. 188 00:13:17,324 --> 00:13:20,324 And people people love this idea. 189 00:13:20,324 --> 00:13:22,324 And I don't really get it personally, 190 00:13:22,324 --> 00:13:24,324 but I'm like a very much a live and let live kind of person. 191 00:13:24,324 --> 00:13:26,324 The customer is always right. 192 00:13:26,324 --> 00:13:31,324 So we do plan to support it and we plan to support the issuing of. 193 00:13:31,324 --> 00:13:32,324 And I have. 194 00:13:32,324 --> 00:13:35,324 We have already created and released and you can already download it right 195 00:13:35,324 --> 00:13:39,324 now if you want a BitAssets sidechain where you can make your own assets 196 00:13:39,324 --> 00:13:41,324 and the assets are UTXO. 197 00:13:41,324 --> 00:13:42,324 It's not like a theory and base. 198 00:13:42,324 --> 00:13:45,324 So the assets can be in their own. 199 00:13:45,324 --> 00:13:48,324 multisig output or lightning channel output or something. 200 00:13:48,324 --> 00:13:51,324 We actually plan to completely rewrite that in rust. 201 00:13:51,324 --> 00:13:52,324 Anyway. 202 00:13:52,324 --> 00:13:55,324 So even though we already have a good version. 203 00:13:55,324 --> 00:14:00,324 It's in a situation where I feel ashamed of it and we can have a better 204 00:14:00,324 --> 00:14:01,324 version soon. 205 00:14:01,324 --> 00:14:03,324 You know, there'll always be a better version. 206 00:14:03,324 --> 00:14:08,324 But that's the concept of just people issuing their own assets. 207 00:14:08,324 --> 00:14:10,324 And. 208 00:14:10,324 --> 00:14:13,324 A good person to talk to about this is Bruce Fenton, 209 00:14:13,324 --> 00:14:18,324 because he is directly involved in the securities business for a long time. 210 00:14:18,324 --> 00:14:20,324 And he's a registered. 211 00:14:20,324 --> 00:14:22,324 I don't know, probably a. 212 00:14:22,324 --> 00:14:24,324 It's probably a broker and a dealer. 213 00:14:24,324 --> 00:14:27,324 I don't know exactly what, but he's passed all the different series. 214 00:14:27,324 --> 00:14:30,324 You know, those exams series seven, series 60, whatever. 215 00:14:30,324 --> 00:14:34,324 So he has been in the securities business for a long time. 216 00:14:35,324 --> 00:14:38,324 And he says that you never actually own a share of anything. 217 00:14:38,324 --> 00:14:41,324 Like if you buy apple. 218 00:14:41,324 --> 00:14:44,324 There's like a holding company that officially owns it and you never 219 00:14:44,324 --> 00:14:45,324 actually own it. 220 00:14:45,324 --> 00:14:47,324 You never really know. 221 00:14:47,324 --> 00:14:49,324 How many shares there are. You have to like. 222 00:14:49,324 --> 00:14:50,324 Look it up. 223 00:14:50,324 --> 00:14:54,324 You have to like pay a fee and look it up on like the Delaware website. 224 00:14:54,324 --> 00:14:57,324 And so there's these other people databases that do it and. 225 00:14:57,324 --> 00:14:58,324 They're inconsistent. 226 00:14:58,324 --> 00:15:01,324 Those things are called corporate actions where they like change the stock 227 00:15:01,324 --> 00:15:03,324 ticker symbol. And it's like. 228 00:15:03,324 --> 00:15:06,324 So it's apparently it's, it's not run very well. 229 00:15:06,324 --> 00:15:09,324 So even in the case of apple, where it's a centralized company. 230 00:15:12,324 --> 00:15:16,324 The just tracking like how many shares there are is. 231 00:15:17,324 --> 00:15:21,324 Who owns them is could be improved in his opinion. 232 00:15:22,324 --> 00:15:25,324 And that's so this is kind of a rambling answer, 233 00:15:25,324 --> 00:15:28,324 but I'm trying to say is that the idea of just issuing tokens or just 234 00:15:28,324 --> 00:15:31,324 issuing art collectibles, that's a very old idea. 235 00:15:31,324 --> 00:15:33,324 People want to push the envelope further. 236 00:15:35,324 --> 00:15:36,324 And make like stocks and bonds. 237 00:15:36,324 --> 00:15:38,324 You're like, there's things that you would own that aren't Bitcoin. 238 00:15:38,324 --> 00:15:43,324 Stable coins is a perfect example of your stable coins where people want 239 00:15:43,324 --> 00:15:48,324 to own something that's that specifically is not Bitcoin for whatever 240 00:15:48,324 --> 00:15:49,324 reason, you know, God bless them. 241 00:15:49,324 --> 00:15:52,324 So you have to respect investor sovereignty. 242 00:15:53,324 --> 00:15:55,324 Anyway, this is a very rambling answer. 243 00:15:55,324 --> 00:16:00,324 I should really ask you to be more specifically on exactly what you plan 244 00:16:01,324 --> 00:16:02,324 to what you want to know. 245 00:16:02,324 --> 00:16:03,324 See, 246 00:16:03,324 --> 00:16:07,324 because the ordinals movement is also just about doing things on Bitcoin 247 00:16:08,324 --> 00:16:09,324 without permission. 248 00:16:10,324 --> 00:16:11,324 And in that sense, 249 00:16:11,324 --> 00:16:15,324 the ordinal idea is already on every UTXO chain. 250 00:16:15,324 --> 00:16:19,324 Like it can't be stopped, but it's also very limited in what it can do. 251 00:16:22,324 --> 00:16:27,324 You can't really assume the tyranny of Bitcoin Core. 252 00:16:28,324 --> 00:16:30,324 So you can leave and go to a different piece of software. 253 00:16:33,324 --> 00:16:34,324 Yeah. 254 00:16:34,324 --> 00:16:35,324 Oh, sorry, Paul. 255 00:16:35,324 --> 00:16:37,324 I thought you were asking for clarification. 256 00:16:37,324 --> 00:16:38,324 Yes. 257 00:16:38,324 --> 00:16:44,324 Like, I think the reason that people value ordinals, right. 258 00:16:44,324 --> 00:16:47,324 Is because, I mean, you know, there's always, I guess, 259 00:16:47,324 --> 00:16:49,324 the technicalities of it, right. 260 00:16:49,324 --> 00:16:51,324 But like the belief is there that, you know, 261 00:16:52,324 --> 00:16:56,324 those digital collectibles will be on the Bitcoin blockchain, 262 00:16:56,324 --> 00:16:57,324 like essentially like forever. 263 00:16:57,324 --> 00:16:58,324 Right. 264 00:16:58,324 --> 00:17:01,324 No, I think that actually gives them a lot of value. 265 00:17:01,324 --> 00:17:05,324 So my specific question would be like, you know, would it be, 266 00:17:05,324 --> 00:17:08,324 I'd like to hear your thoughts on that also. 267 00:17:08,324 --> 00:17:09,324 Right. 268 00:17:09,324 --> 00:17:12,324 But I guess my just coming to my question, you know, 269 00:17:12,324 --> 00:17:18,324 will do you think it will be possible to bridge those assets or ownership of 270 00:17:18,324 --> 00:17:22,324 those assets onto a drivechain and then like transact, 271 00:17:22,324 --> 00:17:26,324 like trade them on the sidechain? 272 00:17:28,324 --> 00:17:29,324 The answer is yes. 273 00:17:29,324 --> 00:17:32,324 And I think that that is what will happen and should happen. 274 00:17:32,324 --> 00:17:33,324 In fact, 275 00:17:33,324 --> 00:17:37,324 probably the BitAsset sidechain should at some point create some kind of 276 00:17:37,324 --> 00:17:39,324 indexer that can index every known ordinal. 277 00:17:40,324 --> 00:17:45,324 And then at some point the BitAssets sidechain before it officially 278 00:17:45,324 --> 00:17:47,324 launches should have some kind of like, 279 00:17:48,324 --> 00:17:50,324 like it should 280 00:17:52,324 --> 00:17:58,324 like import the ordinal set because we don't want anyone to feel left behind. 281 00:17:59,324 --> 00:18:02,324 But the ordinal thing, you know, 282 00:18:05,324 --> 00:18:10,324 it's very difficult to understand NFTs and crypto art because it's all fraught 283 00:18:10,324 --> 00:18:15,324 with the idea of people pumping their bags and they don't need the reason to 284 00:18:15,324 --> 00:18:16,324 be true. 285 00:18:18,324 --> 00:18:21,324 They can be lying, but they can also be self deceived. 286 00:18:22,324 --> 00:18:23,324 Right. 287 00:18:23,324 --> 00:18:25,324 So if they say, well, why is my, 288 00:18:25,324 --> 00:18:33,324 why is my JPEG of a bored ape selling for enough money to save 50,000 African 289 00:18:33,324 --> 00:18:34,324 lives? 290 00:18:35,324 --> 00:18:37,324 It's like a vitamin a donation. 291 00:18:38,324 --> 00:18:42,324 Like people have to come up with some kind of story for that in their head as 292 00:18:42,324 --> 00:18:43,324 to why, why is this pumping? 293 00:18:44,324 --> 00:18:46,324 And this lead, you know, this is just a, you know, 294 00:18:46,324 --> 00:18:48,324 this is leads to deception and self deception. 295 00:18:49,324 --> 00:18:51,324 So the trope, 296 00:18:51,324 --> 00:18:56,324 the line that people have learned to say is ordinals are 297 00:18:58,324 --> 00:19:01,324 going to be there on while one, so there'll be around forever. 298 00:19:02,324 --> 00:19:04,324 Now there's a tiny bit of truth to this. 299 00:19:05,324 --> 00:19:08,324 It's also overlaps with what I think is a more important reason, 300 00:19:08,324 --> 00:19:11,324 which is that the ordinals, 301 00:19:14,324 --> 00:19:15,324 they have like the, 302 00:19:15,324 --> 00:19:20,324 there's like an attention economy where ordinals can cause the L1 fee rate 303 00:19:20,324 --> 00:19:24,324 to go up and they can actually affect like, 304 00:19:24,324 --> 00:19:27,324 what do people see when they go on Clark Moody dashboard? 305 00:19:28,324 --> 00:19:31,324 And what do people see when they go on men pull that space? 306 00:19:31,324 --> 00:19:35,324 And it actually causes literally causes lightning channels to close. 307 00:19:36,324 --> 00:19:40,324 So the ordinals phenomenon writ large, 308 00:19:40,324 --> 00:19:44,324 it actually has like a force, like a magnetism. 309 00:19:45,324 --> 00:19:48,324 It actually has a physics, you know, it affects, 310 00:19:48,324 --> 00:19:52,324 it screws up lightning and it pushes people into custodial lightning. 311 00:19:53,324 --> 00:19:56,324 And it also screws up L1 transaction. 312 00:19:57,324 --> 00:19:59,324 So it's, it's like a big commercial for 313 00:20:01,625 --> 00:20:05,945 maybe what you might call large block is a more different L2s because it's, 314 00:20:05,945 --> 00:20:09,465 it mangles not only the lightning network, but also L1. 315 00:20:10,745 --> 00:20:14,745 So in this sense, it's part of a much bigger movement, whether or not 316 00:20:15,465 --> 00:20:20,985 the relative reputation of the lightning network and L1, those things, 317 00:20:23,465 --> 00:20:29,784 they, they will alter the trajectory of hundreds of millions of dollars of VC funding. 318 00:20:30,505 --> 00:20:36,904 And to say nothing of other types of which developers pay attention to which projects. 319 00:20:37,705 --> 00:20:41,865 So that by itself is enough to explain, you know, I think, 320 00:20:44,025 --> 00:20:47,385 but I think a lot of what people say about ordinals is a story. 321 00:20:47,385 --> 00:20:50,424 I think they have to provide actual utility for the end user. 322 00:20:50,424 --> 00:20:57,465 So I, when we have Alex Kravitz, sometimes he shows up in this space and he tells him, 323 00:20:57,465 --> 00:21:00,025 he paints a completely different picture that I think is much better, 324 00:21:00,744 --> 00:21:04,345 where he paints a picture of like, yeah, you'll get a digital ID on L1. 325 00:21:05,305 --> 00:21:08,985 You have L1 would be like a Dropbox that cannot delete your files. 326 00:21:08,985 --> 00:21:12,425 So you can host files there. You can put WikiLeaks stuff on there. 327 00:21:12,425 --> 00:21:16,985 You can put books there. You can put a will there that's encrypted. 328 00:21:16,985 --> 00:21:21,065 So you can decrypt it. So it's like a completely different file system. 329 00:21:22,665 --> 00:21:26,985 And that would actually add some utility. That would give utility to the end user. 330 00:21:28,425 --> 00:21:36,425 Right. So the, uh, it's not because it's, I don't know. 331 00:21:37,065 --> 00:21:42,025 I mean, you know, like, is that, is this what really what people believe or is it a fake belief? 332 00:21:42,904 --> 00:21:44,584 You tell me like, okay. 333 00:21:45,465 --> 00:21:51,065 Because who actually thinks that any data on the internet is really in danger of being deleted. 334 00:21:51,065 --> 00:21:54,504 There are certain things like, like, um, you can get shadow banned and you can get 335 00:21:54,504 --> 00:21:59,385 banned from the internet. You can get censored from the internet, but I just, 336 00:21:59,385 --> 00:22:04,105 just a photograph, an innocent photograph is not going to be deleted. 337 00:22:04,105 --> 00:22:07,624 And I don't think anyone really thinks that like Litecoin, even though that's useless. 338 00:22:07,624 --> 00:22:11,384 I don't really think that anyone thinks that that's just going to be gone in like 20 or 30 339 00:22:11,384 --> 00:22:17,065 years. Like it'll be somewhere worst case scenario, maybe not worst case scenario, 340 00:22:17,065 --> 00:22:21,225 but I just don't believe that this is true. You know, do you understand what I'm saying? 341 00:22:21,225 --> 00:22:27,705 Like, I don't actually believe that it's, it's true. It sorts them out and gives them to, 342 00:22:27,705 --> 00:22:34,425 it makes it puts them in a privileged set, but that doesn't necessarily give them the value. 343 00:22:36,345 --> 00:22:41,225 People kind of, people kind of already are using it, exploring what you just said. 344 00:22:41,225 --> 00:22:45,945 People are putting like documents of historical significance up there as well as, you know, 345 00:22:45,945 --> 00:22:50,024 monkey JPEGs. I think someone put the Bitcoin white paper up there. 346 00:22:51,225 --> 00:22:56,985 King James Bible up there, Cypherpunk manifesto up there. And yeah, indeed it, it, it makes it 347 00:22:56,985 --> 00:23:01,225 like very difficult to, to censor that information or, or for that matter, modify it, you know, 348 00:23:01,225 --> 00:23:07,705 in 50 years or a hundred years. Right. So anyway, let's change the topic. That's an upload ordinal. 349 00:23:08,505 --> 00:23:15,945 No, but I like that. That's good. Of course the ordinal's phenomenon overall is really about 350 00:23:16,824 --> 00:23:26,184 should we do the wrong thing just because something isn't shaped like a conventional, 351 00:23:26,184 --> 00:23:31,705 conventional Bitcoin transacts. Sort of like a kind of, it's funny because every ordinal's 352 00:23:31,705 --> 00:23:37,225 transaction is a valid Bitcoin transaction and it does pay a higher fee. It crowds everything out. 353 00:23:37,785 --> 00:23:42,104 So it pays the higher fee. So it's basically some kind of form of, you know, discrimination. 354 00:23:42,425 --> 00:23:46,505 It's like, should we discriminate for irrelevant reasons against people who want to use Bitcoin? 355 00:23:46,505 --> 00:23:49,065 So it's actually kind of like a battle of good and evil in a way. 356 00:23:50,904 --> 00:23:55,544 And the person who pays the most for the block space is the rightful owner. 357 00:23:56,824 --> 00:24:01,544 And so I agree with you Paul. I think a lot of what we're seeing, like you mentioned, 358 00:24:01,544 --> 00:24:06,664 you know, the fee market, you know, lighting channels being squeezed out, all this activity 359 00:24:06,664 --> 00:24:10,505 in a way it's indistinguishable from mass adoption. So in a way it's sort of like a stress 360 00:24:10,505 --> 00:24:18,025 test for all these systems. Yeah. In a way, by in a way you mean just in the way, because 361 00:24:18,025 --> 00:24:24,985 it is adoption. Ordinal's is adoption. And of course, I think what you are getting at is that 362 00:24:25,784 --> 00:24:29,944 it begs the question, well, if this had happened, if this had happened due to mass adoption, 363 00:24:30,745 --> 00:24:34,905 would we still complain and try to censor it? And then the answer was no. And then 364 00:24:35,465 --> 00:24:37,705 the whole thing seems stupid because it could be revealed. 365 00:24:38,585 --> 00:24:41,784 It's all ad hominem, you know, it could just be revealed later that, 366 00:24:43,384 --> 00:24:48,985 oh, wait a minute. Actually, all that ordinal stuff wasn't real. And they really were all 367 00:24:48,985 --> 00:24:52,104 the actual Bitcoin transactions the whole time. And then everyone would have to change their 368 00:24:52,104 --> 00:24:54,664 mind. And then it could be and have been revealed that the revelation 369 00:24:56,425 --> 00:25:00,344 was fake. And actually they were just ordinals. And now and now you're changing your mind 370 00:25:01,305 --> 00:25:07,705 about something based on a reason other than the content of that information. 371 00:25:09,625 --> 00:25:13,705 So it's like, it's absurd. Honestly, the whole thing is absurd. But yeah, I don't actually 372 00:25:13,705 --> 00:25:18,425 participate in any kind of ordinals stuff, but I think the ordinals people are definitely, 373 00:25:19,145 --> 00:25:23,944 they're onto something. They want to use Bitcoin and they want to take Bitcoin seriously. 374 00:25:24,104 --> 00:25:30,425 And that's a good thing. And so I gave you a long rambly answer, but 375 00:25:31,865 --> 00:25:38,185 to just continue to ramble slightly for a short time, I hope. A pro-BitAsset sidechain 376 00:25:39,224 --> 00:25:47,224 to bring all this, you know, this idea of people issuing their own assets to BTC on L2. And I'm 377 00:25:47,224 --> 00:25:52,104 just pro people using Bitcoin for things without permission and without changing the L1 code. And 378 00:25:52,104 --> 00:25:57,705 in fact, older versions of BIP300, you would have needed a soft fork to add each 379 00:25:59,305 --> 00:26:06,824 sidechain. But then we changed it so that BIP300 already does the drop-add. And in fact, 380 00:26:06,824 --> 00:26:13,384 it has this 50% hashrate threshold for withdrawals and for activation, activating itself, 381 00:26:14,185 --> 00:26:21,384 and had this 80% super majority to claim the slot. But lately I have actually been thinking 382 00:26:21,384 --> 00:26:27,064 that we should probably just lower, they should all just be 50. And we should give up on the 383 00:26:27,064 --> 00:26:35,784 concept of super majority and it just be pure proof of work, 50% proof of work experience. 384 00:26:36,745 --> 00:26:41,705 Because otherwise I think, you know, if you don't do 50, it's always a veto, one minus 50%, 385 00:26:42,664 --> 00:26:47,465 80% you have. And what's the point of that? Isn't it really the veto that is the only thing 386 00:26:47,465 --> 00:26:54,344 that matters? So I don't know. It's kind of a rambly thought. But yeah, the Ordinals thing 387 00:26:54,344 --> 00:26:59,544 shouldn't be on L1, should be on L2. It would never have come to L1 if people were getting 388 00:26:59,544 --> 00:27:08,664 what they wanted in general. You know, like it's only because Ethereum is gaining on BTC. 389 00:27:09,465 --> 00:27:15,784 It's only because Lightning is not working out. That's why there's the anxiety around Ordinals. 390 00:27:16,344 --> 00:27:20,104 No one would care. It would have been like Bitcoin, it would have been like it was in 2014 391 00:27:21,145 --> 00:27:27,544 with a, you know, counterparty or something. Where people would think, okay, that's kind of cool, 392 00:27:27,544 --> 00:27:32,664 but Bitcoin is having an all-time high for an un-counterparty reason. And so 393 00:27:35,784 --> 00:27:37,784 so anyway, rambling answer there. But 394 00:27:40,025 --> 00:27:44,025 that's what you get, folks. If you hit the speaker button and then you come up 395 00:27:44,425 --> 00:27:47,064 and you ask a question, you get a rambling answer. 396 00:27:49,384 --> 00:27:51,865 Just like that famous Allman Brothers song. 397 00:28:04,664 --> 00:28:12,425 Anyway, so anyway, come on up and ask a question or have a comment. 398 00:28:14,025 --> 00:28:16,745 Or do whatever it is that you like. 399 00:28:21,625 --> 00:28:25,384 Or don't, because it's a really nice day where I happen to be right now. 400 00:28:27,865 --> 00:28:32,264 So we will end the space if there's nothing cool happening in it. 401 00:28:33,065 --> 00:28:37,464 But I saw some cool people pop their heads in. We saw some good people pop their heads 402 00:28:37,464 --> 00:28:40,505 in to listen. I don't know if how many of them are still here. Some are still here. 403 00:28:40,985 --> 00:28:43,704 Everyone can listen, of course, on the recording, layer2labs.com. 404 00:28:46,185 --> 00:28:48,185 The recordings are there. You can find them. 405 00:29:03,224 --> 00:29:05,224 Yes, don't see anyone yet so far. 406 00:29:05,544 --> 00:29:10,985 But see, this is kind of my point, though. I do think that many of the questions have been 407 00:29:12,344 --> 00:29:18,185 asked already. There's very few that are new. And it would be better probably for us to just 408 00:29:18,185 --> 00:29:22,745 work on the software and release it. We always have new versions coming out, but I'm always 409 00:29:22,745 --> 00:29:29,544 ashamed of them because they're not as good as the next version. I'm not sure when I will 410 00:29:29,704 --> 00:29:41,065 reach a point when I just think it's good enough to announce again. 411 00:29:44,185 --> 00:29:49,305 So we are changing around the front-end a lot. And I think my new thing is 412 00:29:49,305 --> 00:29:51,464 front-end more important than back-end. 413 00:29:51,464 --> 00:29:59,305 Because if the front-end isn't there, then no one experiences it. 414 00:30:04,505 --> 00:30:10,985 But the front-end is, of course, very tricky. Then you have to do things for 415 00:30:10,985 --> 00:30:15,784 different operating systems, and it's just a lot of time consuming. 416 00:30:16,745 --> 00:30:18,745 Let's see here. 417 00:30:21,704 --> 00:30:25,704 Well, you know, hang out. Let's see, was there any other great news? 418 00:30:28,265 --> 00:30:31,865 Isn't a lot of BitConf happening now? I was invited to that. They've been trying to get 419 00:30:31,865 --> 00:30:36,344 me to come year after year. I'm just too tired of traveling. I said, I'm not traveling anymore. 420 00:30:37,385 --> 00:30:43,625 But then they roped me into this Dallas, Texas thing next week. I decided to go. 421 00:30:45,865 --> 00:30:50,745 Even though I said I'm not going anywhere. Ah, I am going. 422 00:30:56,024 --> 00:30:59,865 Anyway, it doesn't seem like we have very many people interested in talking this time. 423 00:31:01,544 --> 00:31:03,144 I do have a lot to do personally. 424 00:31:07,544 --> 00:31:12,745 Quick, come up if you have something to say. 425 00:31:16,185 --> 00:31:18,745 Nope, still nothing. 426 00:31:35,625 --> 00:31:37,945 Well, we don't seem to have very many people here today. 427 00:31:39,625 --> 00:31:44,024 Which is fine. We have a decent, what is this, 20-something? 428 00:31:46,425 --> 00:31:49,704 Which is not bad, but it seems like no one has anything they want to say. 429 00:31:49,704 --> 00:31:54,265 I do, it would be nice if we could just release some new software, 430 00:31:54,265 --> 00:31:56,985 then I think that would be cool. We'll have like a little announcement. 431 00:31:57,625 --> 00:32:02,584 We'll be able to show it off, make like a little video. 432 00:32:03,305 --> 00:32:05,065 Then we'll have a little bit more to talk about maybe. 433 00:32:05,945 --> 00:32:09,945 Yeah. 434 00:32:17,945 --> 00:32:24,425 But if no one has anything to say, then we will have to respect everyone's time. 435 00:32:26,024 --> 00:32:29,144 Finding the space. After all, we can't have a space if it's not about anything. 436 00:32:29,544 --> 00:32:35,144 But yes, just to remind, first of all, it's definitely not a good idea to do technical 437 00:32:37,144 --> 00:32:39,385 discussion on Twitter. That's obvious. 438 00:32:40,344 --> 00:32:48,344 And so, certainly I have blocked my fair share of people who are just completely bad faith, 439 00:32:48,344 --> 00:32:49,865 people who are just wasting time. 440 00:32:50,745 --> 00:32:54,745 You have to use Twitter the right way, which certainly includes blocking people. 441 00:32:55,144 --> 00:33:06,904 But if there are any critiques or any new criticisms or things people want to say, 442 00:33:07,865 --> 00:33:11,865 they should come to this space and talk, but they really never do. 443 00:33:13,544 --> 00:33:17,305 We had Mr. Hoddle that one time, and then he listed off this list of like eight things, 444 00:33:17,305 --> 00:33:21,464 and then I went through the list, and then each time he said, 445 00:33:21,544 --> 00:33:24,825 went through the list, and then each time he said, oh yeah, you're right about that. 446 00:33:25,385 --> 00:33:30,024 I was wrong. But then his phone died, and then he said he would come back. 447 00:33:31,865 --> 00:33:33,865 But he hasn't been back yet, so. 448 00:33:37,305 --> 00:33:41,704 And then Alex B has spaces, and then he constantly deletes them 449 00:33:44,425 --> 00:33:49,625 after I answer his questions. So there you go. 450 00:33:51,544 --> 00:33:58,584 I mean, we sort of do this to try and see if anyone has any kind of complaint or something. 451 00:34:00,745 --> 00:34:01,945 But I don't think there are any. 452 00:34:05,065 --> 00:34:08,505 Anyway, no one, I've been rambling like this for a while, and no one has come 453 00:34:08,505 --> 00:34:18,505 up to claim the speaker icon, so it does seem like no one wants to say anything today. 454 00:34:18,505 --> 00:34:22,344 So maybe this one will be a short one. 455 00:34:26,344 --> 00:34:28,584 Okay, we're going to go going once, going twice. 456 00:34:30,425 --> 00:34:31,704 Going once, going twice. 457 00:34:33,784 --> 00:34:36,825 Quick, come up and say something, or the space will end. 458 00:34:41,224 --> 00:34:44,584 Okay, cool. So I guess we will just leave it there then, everyone. 459 00:34:44,584 --> 00:34:50,505 So hey, thanks for another space, short one. Invite people to the next one. 460 00:34:53,144 --> 00:34:56,425 Although the next one, I think I'll be flying back from that Dallas thing, so 461 00:34:57,625 --> 00:35:02,505 I don't think I'll be able to make it next week at 1 p.m., but we'll do that some other time. 462 00:35:04,425 --> 00:35:07,385 Okay, cool. Well, hey, fun space. See everyone later. 463 00:35:07,385 --> 00:35:12,825 Bye-bye.