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Okay, hello. Hi, everyone.

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Here it is, Wednesday at 2 p.m. So,

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I'm here to answer anyone's

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questions or complaints.

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Raise your hand and you can come up and complain or ask a question

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or do whatever.

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I'm going to invite a couple people to co-host just because sometimes my

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phone will just crash and it will lose the space. So,

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I'm just going to invite some people

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to co-host just so that there is a

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host in case my phone crashes. Okay,

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we have the very

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first person. Here we go. Yes,

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we got a Justin. Hello. Hello. Hey,

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I'll co-host if you need

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a co-host. Yeah, I would like one because I think if my phone crashes,

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the whole space

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will go down, which is no good. But if you have a co-host, it will.

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We have one. We got

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someone accepted one.

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So, yeah, of course,

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I'll just

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talk a little

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bit about it. It's

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like, first of all, about myself, you know,

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I've been a Bitcoiner for a very long time, and I

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was a Bitcoin maximalist for 15 years, basically until now.

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But Bitcoin faces a lot of very

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important problems that we have to address. And I think if we don't,

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we may lose this

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opportunity to make Bitcoin a success.

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My view is that the root cause of all these problems is

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that we have grown complacent because of a lack of competition. And the,

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you know, like, we

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have, we're in denial about an awful lot of things. But on one hand,

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people preach this idea

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that Bitcoin is perfect, and Bitcoin doesn't, it can't be improved.

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And Bitcoin is, it's

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already, you know, exactly what it needs to be.

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And all we need to do is not break it. But then

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on the other hand, we have all these problems,

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like everyone's lying to themselves about the

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Lightning Network, everyone's lying to themselves about what it means,

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the darknet markets have

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switched to Monero only, people are switching to stablecoins,

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that was originally, all this was

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originally a Bitcoin project, Zcash, etc.

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All this stuff was originally Bitcoin projects. People

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have been slowly leaving over 15 years. So we had one person request.

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But I don't see them

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anymore. And so this hard fork is actually a really good idea,

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because it allows everyone to

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get free money.

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And it allows us to create a competitor to BTC that will hopefully help

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BTC

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perform better. And of course,

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people had very strong feelings

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about this, because of the Bitcoin

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cash hard fork in 2017, I think. So I created this space to, you know,

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let all the haters or

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critics, you know, like, sure, let's, let's see what they have to say.

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I'm not surprised that, you

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know, lots of people are, you know, they want to hop on to my tweet,

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they got 10 million views. And

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they want to add like some little thing for themselves.

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But then they don't actually want to

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show up to the space to complain. It doesn't surprise me at all.

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That's exactly what I was

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expecting, of course. But sure, hey,

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tell your friends tell you anyone who's a hater or anyone

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who's curious. Tell them to come on in.

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And they can talk about why they think this is a terrible

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idea. I suppose I might as well talk about it.

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No one's going to ask or request. I can talk about

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the whole takes Toshi's coins concept,

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which is by far the most talked about feature of this idea.

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And it's,

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it's people talk about it as if it's some kind of flaw or some kind of

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shameful thing.

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But that's nothing of the kind. I mean, it's,

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it's actually an ingenious idea.

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First,

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I have to point out that there is a different version of this hard fork

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that does

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not have any reassignment of Satoshi's coins,

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it doesn't have any hard fork. And that that version

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is that's just what BIP300 is itself.

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And that has existed for a very long time.

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It was formalized in 2017 or something. So that's point number one.

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But point number two is the

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people who complain about the reassignment of Satoshi's coins,

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they have to equivocate,

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they want it both ways. They on one hand, they want to say,

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this project solves an important

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problem, and it's going to be valuable.

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And so the coins will be valuable in this project is

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really important. But on the other hand, they say, Oh,

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this is a terrible project,

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and it's useless, and it's not going to solve any problem.

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So you have to agree,

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we have to go back and forth, either this solves a problem,

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or it doesn't. And if it does solve

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a really big problem,

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then you want to live in a world where the people who help solve a

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problem,

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make an enormous profit from that. That's what that's what we all want.

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We all want

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to live in a world where people profit from solving problems. Otherwise,

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if it takes a lot of effort to solve a problem, and there's no profit,

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then we're really relying

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on people's altruism,

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and not a lot of the important problems are going to be solved,

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only very few of them. So that is, so that's,

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it's a very good thing when you set up your society

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where people who solve a big problem get a profit. And then, you know,

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on the other hand,

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some people just think this, this project is not important,

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and it doesn't solve,

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does not solve an important problem. And in which case,

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why even bother complaining about it,

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because it's just going to be some useless project that the coins won't

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be worth anything.

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Satoshi has exactly as many eCash as he had before,

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in terms of US dollar value.

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Okay, we got someone who is giving the thumbs down.

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Why not come up on stage and

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let everyone know what you have to say.

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Or don't. Again, I'm not surprised.

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Okay, so, yes, some questions. If you're allowing a pre-mine,

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then why not allow the public to pre-mine

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as well? I think that would be a good...

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Not allowing a pre-mine. There's a pre-sale, to some extent,

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but there's not a pre-mine.

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Okay, so the coins that, Satoshi's coins, you're not pre-mining those?

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Is that right?

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That's right. I mean, I guess you could think of it that way, I suppose.

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There is a public

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pre-sale, but for various legal reasons,

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I'm not sure that everyone can participate in it.

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It depends on where you live. That's not my fault.

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But yeah, of course, we're selling them now to people.

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Everyone's getting the same price.

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Okay, we have another person. It's not like, you know what I mean?

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It's not like

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some kind of cloak and dagger thing. Okay, another person has requested

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Mr. Otto and Sante.

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Yes, well, thanks for allowing me to speak. So,

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we already implemented the 300

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protocol back from 2015, and we are testing it. And nevertheless,

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it wasn't adopted in the big

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chain. It does what it's supposed to do. I mean, in our perspective,

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it works, and we've tested it

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with 300, 400 users.

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It does the job with all the Drivechains and stuff. Well,

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we also use the

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OP_RETURN for some small things we do around the Drivechains,

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of course, but it does work. I mean,

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even though this Bitcoin fork, which is in August, won't work,

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it will be a nice experiment for

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everyone. I mean, we can learn from our mistakes and then correct them,

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right?

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Right. I'm sorry,

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are you saying that you run an altcoin that has implemented BIP300?

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Is that

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what you're saying? No, we just forked Bitcoin, restarted it,

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and also allowed your implementation

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of the protocol to run, along with some others. Yeah,

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but you said that it worked with 400 users.

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I didn't understand what you meant by that. Like,

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what are you referring to when you say it?

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We have some drivechains. Yeah, but who's we?

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It's not an auto incentive. It's just another project.

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You will be hearing of it soon enough.

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But we are testing it with our community, and it does work. I mean,

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of course, it doesn't have the

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adoption of the Bitcoin for the miners to collude and stuff like that,

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but as a small

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proof-of-work chain and with Drivechains, it does work. I mean,

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it fits the profile.

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It's just an experiment. Why not? Yeah, I agree,

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and I think that even if the eCash hard fork

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in August is a huge failure,

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there are many ways in which it might overall be a success, because

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just by attempting it, we can raise awareness of certain issues.

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It might still cause BTC to

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get into better shape, and even if it fails completely,

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I think it will very

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minimally inconvenience people. They just don't get free money.

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So I think I agree that we should

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be more proactive, and we should actually launch.

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I think we should do lots more.

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Instead of having new altcoins,

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we should really do a lot of these semi-privatized hard forks,

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because then you have a group of people who have an incentive to make a

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high-quality project,

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and meanwhile,

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all Bitcoiners are just getting free money left and right. So I think

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the problem is it affects narratives,

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and it affects people's careers in the development

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world, but I think those people are mostly the problem. Well,

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the thing is that by forking it

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and restarting it, you can relive what Satoshi lived.

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So you will be the only one mining it,

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call it a pre-mine or not.

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You're the only one that believes in that project,

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and others won't mine with you. That's not a pre-mine.

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You are just alone. People don't

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believe you. The second, you will learn so much. I mean,

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the difficulty of adjusting only to

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maximum forex up and down, also the OP_RETURN bug,

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and everything else will be like reliving

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2009-2013 history. With all the bugs,

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some of them were never fixed by Satoshi, some of them

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were fixed instantly. You will learn so much,

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and you can adapt Bitcoin to anything you want.

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That's the power of the open source, in my opinion.

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And even though some of them are not

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successful, the next ones will be for sure. Yeah,

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a lot of people are very interested in

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this project,

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and a lot of people have been pushing for it for more than five years.

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So

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we've had an enormous amount of people be interested in this idea even

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before it was

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announced. And then it clearly struck a very large nerve and got lots of

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conversation,

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news articles, lots of people came up to me in Vegas to talk about it.

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And numerous people

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have asked how to mine it and how to start mining it on day one.

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So I certainly don't

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think it's accurate to say. And I don't think I'll be mining myself.

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I'm not much of a miner.

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Because I have a background in economics,

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so it's a little too close to a perfectly competitive

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industry for me to be interested in working there. But yeah,

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I agree that we should do lots

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of things even if they don't succeed,

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even if something has a 5% chance of success. If we only

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do things that are certain to succeed in the world,

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then we're only going to do a very small

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percentage of all the things that are worth doing.

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So we should try all kinds of things,

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even if they have a low chance of success.

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That's how evolution built every living thing on this

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planet. But sure, thanks.

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So you are running a new project that is secret for now.

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I won't call it a secret.

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It's just a startup that's going to be into the public in a few

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weeks, maybe. But it's okay. I mean, we learned so much about Bitcoin,

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the little things.

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We're not affecting Bitcoin by any means. Neither are we or you.

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We are on the same team.

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It's not about being wrong to the Bitcoin supporters or maxis.

254
00:14:07,900 --> 00:14:11,980
It's just forking the code

255
00:14:11,980 --> 00:14:15,340
and modifying to do experiments. Some of them are good.

256
00:14:15,340 --> 00:14:18,700
Some of them are not so good. But we must

257
00:14:18,700 --> 00:14:21,900
move. I mean,

258
00:14:21,900 --> 00:14:25,100
I don't know how many people out of this crowd know that Bitcoin was not

259
00:14:25,100 --> 00:14:29,540
with a specific supply at the beginning. Well,

260
00:14:29,540 --> 00:14:33,980
that was also a hard fork. Yes, let's call it

261
00:14:34,060 --> 00:14:38,780
that way. I don't think it actually was necessarily a hard fork.

262
00:14:46,860 --> 00:14:49,660
The code was there. It was in plain sight for everybody.

263
00:14:49,660 --> 00:14:52,460
It was modified in 2014, I think,

264
00:14:52,460 --> 00:14:56,340
by Peter, right? Yeah, BIP42, I think.

265
00:14:56,340 --> 00:15:00,220
So things that people should know about Bitcoin,

266
00:15:00,220 --> 00:15:02,820
because it's not just electronic cash. It's much, much more,

267
00:15:02,820 --> 00:15:05,420
in my opinion. So

268
00:15:06,220 --> 00:15:09,500
by using these side projects,

269
00:15:09,500 --> 00:15:12,780
people can learn and be sure about the big boy.

270
00:15:13,980 --> 00:15:18,940
And why not do some, I don't know, some add-ons on the big boy?

271
00:15:18,940 --> 00:15:23,700
Okay, great. Thanks. Yes,

272
00:15:23,700 --> 00:15:28,460
anyone else have any thoughts or complaints or...

273
00:15:29,500 --> 00:15:30,140
Yeah, hello.

274
00:15:33,580 --> 00:15:35,420
Hey. Hello.

275
00:15:36,460 --> 00:15:37,100
Hey, Paul.

276
00:15:38,140 --> 00:15:40,140
Yeah, I... Hey, can you hear me?

277
00:15:40,700 --> 00:15:41,340
I can hear you.

278
00:15:42,220 --> 00:15:46,180
Oh, great. Yeah, I don't know if a lot of people remember,

279
00:15:46,180 --> 00:15:50,140
but back in 2014,

280
00:15:50,140 --> 00:15:54,380
I think it was Peter Risen wanted to launch a chain state fork or so,

281
00:15:54,380 --> 00:15:58,620
like an airdrop

282
00:15:58,620 --> 00:16:02,940
of Ethereum. He called it like a Ethereum, with an A in front.

283
00:16:03,660 --> 00:16:06,940
And he was going to give Ethereum to all Bitcoin holders.

284
00:16:12,300 --> 00:16:15,620
But I was just wondering if you have any thoughts or comments to the

285
00:16:15,620 --> 00:16:18,940
Bitcoin community.

286
00:16:18,940 --> 00:16:19,500
What can they...

287
00:16:19,500 --> 00:16:21,420
I didn't totally understand. I think you may have cut out a little bit.

288
00:16:21,420 --> 00:16:23,340
I heard you say

289
00:16:24,140 --> 00:16:25,100
the A Ethereum.

290
00:16:26,460 --> 00:16:27,020
Yeah.

291
00:16:27,900 --> 00:16:28,780
What did you say? Sorry.

292
00:16:29,660 --> 00:16:32,780
Yeah, yeah. No, sorry if my connection's bad. I'll shut up. But yeah,

293
00:16:32,780 --> 00:16:35,900
it was called A Ethereum.

294
00:16:35,900 --> 00:16:39,820
I think it was Peter Risen on BitcoinTalkForums wanted to give Ethereum

295
00:16:39,820 --> 00:16:43,740
to every Bitcoiner

296
00:16:43,740 --> 00:16:46,300
in the same way that you are with eCash before Ethereum launched.

297
00:16:46,300 --> 00:16:48,860
So it was kind of like,

298
00:16:48,860 --> 00:16:50,420
I'm going to take their software,

299
00:16:50,420 --> 00:16:51,980
but then I'm just going to reward it all to Bitcoiners

300
00:16:51,980 --> 00:16:53,740
to try to sort of beat them.

301
00:16:56,140 --> 00:16:59,340
Yeah, and I thought it was a great idea. And I'm just wondering, like,

302
00:16:59,340 --> 00:17:02,100
do you have any speculations on whether or not eCash fails,

303
00:17:02,100 --> 00:17:04,860
whether or not it gets,

304
00:17:04,860 --> 00:17:07,740
you know, adoption?

305
00:17:07,740 --> 00:17:10,620
But it'd be nice if Bitcoin adopted this kind of governance mechanism.

306
00:17:12,940 --> 00:17:14,660
I was saying, you know,

307
00:17:14,660 --> 00:17:16,380
let's not be so afraid of the hard fork if you're willing

308
00:17:16,380 --> 00:17:18,220
to create a new community. So I just think it's kind of interesting.

309
00:17:18,220 --> 00:17:20,060
And I wonder if

310
00:17:20,060 --> 00:17:23,980
you've thought about what Bitcoin could learn from this experiment.

311
00:17:25,980 --> 00:17:28,620
Yeah, I completely agree.

312
00:17:28,620 --> 00:17:31,260
And I think that imagine how different the culture would have

313
00:17:31,260 --> 00:17:34,100
been if instead of having all these altcoins,

314
00:17:34,100 --> 00:17:36,940
there was just all hard forks and everything

315
00:17:36,940 --> 00:17:38,660
was just going to Bitcoin holders. Now, of course,

316
00:17:38,660 --> 00:17:40,380
when you do the pure hard fork,

317
00:17:41,340 --> 00:17:44,300
that means that you can't give any extra profit to the people who,

318
00:17:44,300 --> 00:17:47,260
you know, did the labor of

319
00:17:47,260 --> 00:17:51,140
creating the fork idea, which is, again,

320
00:17:51,140 --> 00:17:55,020
why this Satoshi's Coins idea is actually a brilliant idea.

321
00:17:55,020 --> 00:17:58,180
And it perfectly cuts the difference between, on one hand,

322
00:17:58,180 --> 00:18:01,340
rewarding all Bitcoin holders by

323
00:18:01,340 --> 00:18:02,940
giving them free coins. And on the other hand,

324
00:18:02,940 --> 00:18:04,540
it gives you like an incentive to create the

325
00:18:04,540 --> 00:18:06,860
project in the first place. So, yeah,

326
00:18:06,860 --> 00:18:09,180
I think that would have been really, really cool if that

327
00:18:09,180 --> 00:18:12,660
had caught on. Back when Ethereum was created, people believed so much,

328
00:18:12,660 --> 00:18:16,140
including me, everyone

329
00:18:16,140 --> 00:18:18,820
just took it for granted that Bitcoin would just be doing smart

330
00:18:18,820 --> 00:18:21,500
contracts. And we rolled our eyes

331
00:18:21,500 --> 00:18:24,580
at Ethereum and we thought, well, you know, who cares,

332
00:18:24,580 --> 00:18:27,660
because it's an open source project,

333
00:18:27,660 --> 00:18:30,100
we're just going to absorb all the best ideas.

334
00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:32,540
It was totally taken for granted back in 2015,

335
00:18:32,540 --> 00:18:35,180
back in 2014. I mean,

336
00:18:35,180 --> 00:18:37,820
everyone thought sidechains were around the corner. There was a tweet.

337
00:18:38,940 --> 00:18:41,540
So Blockstream had just come out. And Gavin Andreessen had tweeted like,

338
00:18:41,540 --> 00:18:44,140
if this amazing

339
00:18:44,140 --> 00:18:47,660
company offers you a job, you take it. Brian Armstrong had the tweet,

340
00:18:47,660 --> 00:18:51,180
like, the altcoins are

341
00:18:51,180 --> 00:18:54,220
just a distraction. Ripple, Litecoin are a distraction.

342
00:18:54,220 --> 00:18:57,260
The way is Bitcoin and sidechains.

343
00:18:57,260 --> 00:18:58,940
Everyone believed Trace Mayer had a tweet.

344
00:19:00,024 --> 00:19:02,704
When the sidechains whitepaper came out,

345
00:19:02,704 --> 00:19:05,384
all the altcoin markets crashed. He had like a snarky screenshot.

346
00:19:07,144 --> 00:19:09,464
Everyone took it for granted that we would have these L2 chains and that

347
00:19:09,464 --> 00:19:11,784
there would not be any

348
00:19:11,784 --> 00:19:13,944
difference technologically between Bitcoin and Ethereum.

349
00:19:13,944 --> 00:19:16,104
So that might have been why people

350
00:19:16,104 --> 00:19:17,731
were overconfident.

351
00:19:17,731 --> 00:19:19,357
I don't think anyone realized we'd be living in a world where all the

352
00:19:19,357 --> 00:19:20,984
chains

353
00:19:20,984 --> 00:19:24,344
were so different and they had all these niches.

354
00:19:24,344 --> 00:19:27,704
And there'd be like a Solana niche for meme coins

355
00:19:27,784 --> 00:19:31,744
or something. Anyway, that's a great comment. OK,

356
00:19:31,744 --> 00:19:35,704
now we have someone else. Mr. Mimetic Money.

357
00:19:35,704 --> 00:19:38,544
Hello. Hey, Paul, thanks for taking my question.

358
00:19:38,544 --> 00:19:41,384
I'll be real brief and then step down to take

359
00:19:41,384 --> 00:19:43,437
the answer.

360
00:19:43,437 --> 00:19:45,491
But you were mentioning earlier in this chat here that if this hard fork

361
00:19:45,491 --> 00:19:47,544
works and

362
00:19:47,544 --> 00:19:50,624
you get a really good competitor to Bitcoin,

363
00:19:50,624 --> 00:19:53,704
that ultimately strengthens Bitcoin. So I just wanted

364
00:19:53,704 --> 00:19:56,824
your thoughts in that world where let's say sidechains become successful

365
00:19:56,824 --> 00:19:59,944
enough to host all

366
00:19:59,944 --> 00:20:03,104
the experimentation applications, the transactions you're talking about.

367
00:20:03,104 --> 00:20:06,264
What stops Bitcoin itself

368
00:20:06,264 --> 00:20:08,584
from just being the settlement layer beneath a larger ecosystem in that

369
00:20:08,584 --> 00:20:10,904
world? Like, is that

370
00:20:10,904 --> 00:20:13,824
what you want? Yeah, that makes sense. But that's what BIP300 is.

371
00:20:13,824 --> 00:20:16,744
And the Bitcoin community, it's

372
00:20:16,744 --> 00:20:19,984
not just about activating BIP300.

373
00:20:19,984 --> 00:20:23,224
We have a lot of like weird cultural problems that I think

374
00:20:23,304 --> 00:20:26,184
might be impossible to fix,

375
00:20:26,184 --> 00:20:29,064
but maybe a competitor could could fix them because

376
00:20:30,344 --> 00:20:32,464
really like we live in a world where I think there's a couple smoking

377
00:20:32,464 --> 00:20:34,584
guns. So one of the

378
00:20:34,584 --> 00:20:37,184
smoking guns would be OP_CAT, which is OP_CAT. It does basically nothing.

379
00:20:37,184 --> 00:20:39,784
It was in the original

380
00:20:39,784 --> 00:20:43,304
Satoshi client and it was removed in a kind of panicked emergency

381
00:20:43,304 --> 00:20:46,824
situation. It just takes X and

382
00:20:46,824 --> 00:20:50,504
Y and returns XY next to each other.

383
00:20:50,504 --> 00:20:54,184
It had this financial support like backing from

384
00:20:54,184 --> 00:20:56,624
Starkware. It enables all these weird Merkle tree things.

385
00:20:56,624 --> 00:20:59,064
So OP_CAT is this super, super, super,

386
00:20:59,064 --> 00:21:02,344
it's like you designed a science experiment to have the least

387
00:21:02,344 --> 00:21:05,624
controversial beneficial soft fork.

388
00:21:08,104 --> 00:21:10,824
But we're not doing that. So the question is why?

389
00:21:10,824 --> 00:21:13,544
And I think the answer is

390
00:21:14,424 --> 00:21:16,664
the cultural and it's in everyone's brain and it's the size of the

391
00:21:16,664 --> 00:21:18,904
community is too big and

392
00:21:18,904 --> 00:21:20,784
people can't talk to each other anymore. Like, you know what I mean?

393
00:21:20,784 --> 00:21:22,664
None of these people know

394
00:21:22,664 --> 00:21:26,224
what OP_CAT, who knows what OP_CAT is?

395
00:21:26,224 --> 00:21:29,784
Does Michael Saylor know what OP_CAT is? Does BlackRock know

396
00:21:29,784 --> 00:21:33,424
what OP_CAT is? Does Bitmain know what OP_CAT is? I don't, you know, like,

397
00:21:33,424 --> 00:21:37,064
I would guess that none

398
00:21:37,064 --> 00:21:39,304
of these people know what it is, even though in the technical community,

399
00:21:39,304 --> 00:21:41,544
it's the simpler

400
00:21:41,864 --> 00:21:46,664
far simpler thing. So in an abstract sense, it's hard to talk about.

401
00:21:46,664 --> 00:21:51,464
I think that if people could

402
00:21:51,464 --> 00:21:55,224
see it in the wild, then it would be easier to talk about.

403
00:21:55,224 --> 00:21:58,984
My hope is that someone will do

404
00:21:58,984 --> 00:22:02,504
something possibly including this hard fork,

405
00:22:02,504 --> 00:22:06,024
but someone will do something that makes the technical

406
00:22:06,024 --> 00:22:08,064
community just say, okay, listen, we've had enough of this.

407
00:22:08,064 --> 00:22:10,104
We've had enough of making

408
00:22:10,664 --> 00:22:12,664
we've had enough of making all these irrational decisions.

409
00:22:12,664 --> 00:22:14,664
And we're just going to merge like 16

410
00:22:14,664 --> 00:22:17,944
soft forks and the next version of Bitcoin or the miners just say,

411
00:22:17,944 --> 00:22:21,224
we've also had enough of this.

412
00:22:22,184 --> 00:22:24,984
And we know we have researched x, y and z.

413
00:22:24,984 --> 00:22:27,784
And we know this is good for the price of

414
00:22:27,784 --> 00:22:31,224
Bitcoin for the price of ASICs. And we're just going to do it.

415
00:22:31,224 --> 00:22:34,664
I can also see people just

416
00:22:34,664 --> 00:22:37,104
thinking, well,

417
00:22:37,104 --> 00:22:39,544
it's actually too difficult to fix BTC culture and then just silently

418
00:22:40,104 --> 00:22:44,944
jumping ship. So the question was, why can't BTC just do all this?

419
00:22:44,944 --> 00:22:49,784
But the answer is,

420
00:22:50,744 --> 00:22:54,384
there is no good reason why BTC can't do it. And yet paradoxically,

421
00:22:54,384 --> 00:22:58,024
I hope this explanation is not

422
00:22:58,024 --> 00:23:00,904
too bizarre. But paradoxically, because there's no good reason,

423
00:23:00,904 --> 00:23:03,784
it means there's some hidden force

424
00:23:03,784 --> 00:23:08,024
just wrecking it all that maybe we can't overcome.

425
00:23:08,024 --> 00:23:12,264
Appreciate your answer, Paul. Thanks.

426
00:23:12,264 --> 00:23:18,344
Yeah, thank you. Yes, Mr. Justin.

427
00:23:18,344 --> 00:23:24,424
Hello. Welcome back to the stage.

428
00:23:24,984 --> 00:23:31,384
Yeah, where did you, are you publicly announcing the pre-sale price?

429
00:23:31,944 --> 00:23:35,264
Well, how did you determine that price?

430
00:23:35,264 --> 00:23:38,584
The issue with this is a lot of the ICO stuff and

431
00:23:38,584 --> 00:23:41,024
like other public promotions, like it's very scammy.

432
00:23:41,024 --> 00:23:43,464
And there are laws about solicitation.

433
00:23:44,104 --> 00:23:47,104
And it's like on one side,

434
00:23:47,104 --> 00:23:50,104
it's like insider dealing and then on the other side solicitation.

435
00:23:51,064 --> 00:23:53,504
So it's like you're screwed no matter what you do.

436
00:23:53,504 --> 00:23:55,944
But I think on the whole,

437
00:23:57,064 --> 00:23:58,824
it's better to avoid talking about it because it just pollutes the

438
00:23:58,824 --> 00:24:00,584
space,

439
00:24:02,184 --> 00:24:04,464
like the space in abstract. It makes it seem like,

440
00:24:04,464 --> 00:24:06,744
because then people just can't stop

441
00:24:07,544 --> 00:24:09,504
shilling their investments and it's annoying for everyone.

442
00:24:09,504 --> 00:24:11,464
It's like when people come to

443
00:24:11,464 --> 00:24:14,904
your front door and they try to sell you whatever.

444
00:24:14,904 --> 00:24:18,344
And so I think I try to de-emphasize it because I

445
00:24:18,344 --> 00:24:19,824
don't really want it to be about that.

446
00:24:19,824 --> 00:24:21,304
I really want it to be about the ideas.

447
00:24:22,824 --> 00:24:25,224
But I will, people can DM me about it if they want. And yeah,

448
00:24:25,224 --> 00:24:27,624
I'm trying to keep it to like

449
00:24:28,264 --> 00:24:29,904
people that I've had like a multi-year relationship with,

450
00:24:29,904 --> 00:24:31,544
which would include us,

451
00:24:31,544 --> 00:24:35,224
Justin, because we met you at many Bitcoin conferences ago in person.

452
00:24:35,224 --> 00:24:38,904
But I would prefer

453
00:24:38,904 --> 00:24:41,104
it to be like people who have been in the industry a long time,

454
00:24:41,104 --> 00:24:43,304
people who have known

455
00:24:43,304 --> 00:24:45,504
me for a long time,

456
00:24:45,504 --> 00:24:47,704
people who are like very wealthy and can afford to lose the money.

457
00:24:47,784 --> 00:24:49,984
But yeah, the price is pretty low, I think.

458
00:24:49,984 --> 00:24:52,184
I kind of looked at where's Bitcoin Cash,

459
00:24:52,184 --> 00:24:55,624
where's like Bitcoin SV,

460
00:24:55,624 --> 00:24:59,064
these Bitcoin SV being like a disastrous outcome. And I kind of like

461
00:24:59,064 --> 00:25:01,984
put it near Bitcoin SV basically.

462
00:25:01,984 --> 00:25:04,904
So I think everyone who invests will get a good deal.

463
00:25:05,464 --> 00:25:09,384
Certainly that's my hope.

464
00:25:09,384 --> 00:25:13,304
And so I certainly hope to be able to bring people a positive ROI

465
00:25:13,304 --> 00:25:15,624
by just pricing the coins very low.

466
00:25:15,624 --> 00:25:17,944
But I really try to avoid talking about it because

467
00:25:17,944 --> 00:25:21,104
it's really, it is a distraction, I think. And yeah, of course,

468
00:25:21,104 --> 00:25:24,264
at the end of the day,

469
00:25:24,264 --> 00:25:26,864
just eyeball it. But it has been,

470
00:25:26,864 --> 00:25:29,464
it was already two-thirds sold out before we announced. That's

471
00:25:29,464 --> 00:25:31,384
part of the reason why I announced is so many people had found out,

472
00:25:31,384 --> 00:25:33,304
people were already telling

473
00:25:33,304 --> 00:25:37,184
each other. So I thought everyone,

474
00:25:37,184 --> 00:25:41,064
a lot of people already know or something like that.

475
00:25:41,064 --> 00:25:44,424
So that's kind of why I announced actually,

476
00:25:44,424 --> 00:25:47,784
because I already knew that I didn't need that to

477
00:25:49,304 --> 00:25:52,104
complete the project. And again, the project is not,

478
00:25:52,104 --> 00:25:54,904
the fundraising accomplishes several

479
00:25:54,904 --> 00:25:57,904
things at once.

480
00:25:57,904 --> 00:26:00,904
One thing is you need to have a team of people who can trust each other.

481
00:26:02,744 --> 00:26:05,584
It's a little bit like why people do hazing.

482
00:26:05,584 --> 00:26:08,424
You have to clear a bar where people feel like they

483
00:26:08,424 --> 00:26:10,464
can trust each other going into the fork.

484
00:26:10,464 --> 00:26:12,504
You want to have people who have skin in the game

485
00:26:12,504 --> 00:26:15,704
before the fork actually happens.

486
00:26:15,704 --> 00:26:18,904
The people who know how to explain what's happening in advance.

487
00:26:18,904 --> 00:26:21,704
I just think that if you don't do those things,

488
00:26:21,704 --> 00:26:24,504
the hard fork is not viable. Because if you think,

489
00:26:24,504 --> 00:26:27,184
but what if you just snap your fingers and hard fork today,

490
00:26:27,184 --> 00:26:29,864
very few people even know about that.

491
00:26:29,864 --> 00:26:32,384
So they may be transacting in Bitcoin. There may be replay issues.

492
00:26:32,384 --> 00:26:34,904
There may be all this other

493
00:26:34,904 --> 00:26:37,024
stuff that'd be transacting in Bitcoin,

494
00:26:37,024 --> 00:26:39,144
and they don't even know that there's a hard fork.

495
00:26:39,144 --> 00:26:42,144
And it would take them time to research it and make an informed decision

496
00:26:42,144 --> 00:26:45,144
on do they actually

497
00:26:45,144 --> 00:26:50,024
want to invest in it or sell it or buy it or ignore it.

498
00:26:50,024 --> 00:26:54,904
So those factors led to my announcement,

499
00:26:54,904 --> 00:26:58,184
which I realized has many layers.

500
00:26:58,184 --> 00:27:01,464
And someone's frustrated by that and confused, then I think that

501
00:27:02,024 --> 00:27:03,891
is fair. But, you know,

502
00:27:03,891 --> 00:27:05,757
it's like I had to weigh a lot of different issues against each other.

503
00:27:05,757 --> 00:27:07,624
So

504
00:27:08,424 --> 00:27:10,024
that's kind of what I was thinking about that.

505
00:27:10,024 --> 00:27:15,604
Yeah, well,

506
00:27:15,604 --> 00:27:21,184
I think the replay protection is

507
00:27:21,184 --> 00:27:26,764
already implemented right in the hard

508
00:27:26,764 --> 00:27:32,344
fork.

509
00:27:32,344 --> 00:27:37,464
It's not like a bug or whatever. So I don't think replay will be

510
00:27:40,104 --> 00:27:42,304
a thing. But what happened,

511
00:27:42,304 --> 00:27:44,504
I don't know if you remember the Bitcoin gold fork,

512
00:27:45,544 --> 00:27:50,504
what happened is for the people that held Bitcoin were able to also

513
00:27:50,504 --> 00:27:55,464
claim the new Bitcoin gold.

514
00:27:56,024 --> 00:28:00,024
And the thing that happened is for them to derive the new address from

515
00:28:00,024 --> 00:28:04,024
the new fork,

516
00:28:04,504 --> 00:28:09,984
they had no software to do that.

517
00:28:09,984 --> 00:28:15,464
And a very big hack happened that when one user posted a

518
00:28:17,064 --> 00:28:21,104
software that was deriving the new Bitcoin gold address from the old

519
00:28:21,104 --> 00:28:25,144
mnemonic or private key.

520
00:28:25,704 --> 00:28:30,104
And by using a Google Analytics cookie, they stole also the Bitcoin.

521
00:28:30,104 --> 00:28:34,504
So I think as a piece

522
00:28:34,504 --> 00:28:38,904
of advice for the people that are not so techies to provide the software

523
00:28:38,904 --> 00:28:43,304
embedded that will derive

524
00:28:43,304 --> 00:28:46,664
and can be run locally. Yeah,

525
00:28:46,664 --> 00:28:50,024
I would agree. But let me clarify that

526
00:28:50,904 --> 00:28:54,584
the for the replay protection, like to split the coins,

527
00:28:54,584 --> 00:28:58,264
you have to do a new thing using

528
00:28:59,544 --> 00:29:01,704
our software or like a splitter that's derived from our software.

529
00:29:01,704 --> 00:29:03,864
And we're going to publish

530
00:29:03,864 --> 00:29:06,904
all of that well in advance. But if you just make a BTC transaction,

531
00:29:06,904 --> 00:29:09,944
it will be replayed

532
00:29:10,584 --> 00:29:14,944
on the eCash network. So that's different from how Bitcoin Cash.

533
00:29:14,944 --> 00:29:19,304
What Bitcoin Cash did is they

534
00:29:19,704 --> 00:29:22,744
basically said,

535
00:29:22,744 --> 00:29:25,784
we will make it so that everything splits instantaneously. But as

536
00:29:25,784 --> 00:29:29,104
Jameson Lopp rightly pointed out, he said,

537
00:29:29,104 --> 00:29:32,424
this is basically an admission that you're not the real

538
00:29:33,784 --> 00:29:36,144
Bitcoin,

539
00:29:36,144 --> 00:29:38,504
which is kind of funny for Bitcoin Cash to have Bitcoin in the name. But

540
00:29:38,504 --> 00:29:41,904
there's a lot of nuances to it all. But yeah,

541
00:29:41,904 --> 00:29:45,304
I would study the replay protection very carefully

542
00:29:45,304 --> 00:29:48,944
before making a decision or just do nothing until you figure out what

543
00:29:48,944 --> 00:29:52,584
other people are

544
00:29:52,584 --> 00:29:57,824
complaining about, if anything. Yeah, I have a related question.

545
00:29:57,824 --> 00:30:03,064
So let's say theoretically,

546
00:30:03,064 --> 00:30:06,864
someone has Bitcoin in a wallet that has a complicated pathway.

547
00:30:06,864 --> 00:30:10,664
For example,

548
00:30:10,664 --> 00:30:16,784
Wasabi Wallet. It's known to have kind of a hard...

549
00:30:16,784 --> 00:30:22,904
You can pull out using the recovery website,

550
00:30:24,104 --> 00:30:27,104
walletsrecovery.org.

551
00:30:27,104 --> 00:30:30,104
You can pull out various like the SegWit version zero coins

552
00:30:31,544 --> 00:30:34,904
in Electrum or in Sparrow. But the other pathways,

553
00:30:34,904 --> 00:30:38,264
it's just too complicated.

554
00:30:38,264 --> 00:30:40,824
What would you say for those people?

555
00:30:40,824 --> 00:30:43,384
And this would probably be something good to put in the

556
00:30:43,384 --> 00:30:46,744
FAQ as well.

557
00:30:46,744 --> 00:30:50,104
Do you recommend just transferring each UTXO one by one into a new UTXO

558
00:30:50,104 --> 00:30:53,464
in Sparrow?

559
00:30:53,464 --> 00:30:58,744
What's the most secure way of splitting off their eCash?

560
00:31:02,024 --> 00:31:04,584
Well, if you download our software and then spend the eCash,

561
00:31:04,584 --> 00:31:07,144
there'll be like a little checkbox

562
00:31:07,144 --> 00:31:09,504
that is checked by default that's like split the coins and it will do it

563
00:31:09,504 --> 00:31:11,864
for you. Now, of course,

564
00:31:12,504 --> 00:31:14,984
this involves importing your private key,

565
00:31:14,984 --> 00:31:17,464
like the real private key for both coins. So

566
00:31:18,184 --> 00:31:21,304
you really shouldn't do that. That would be an insane thing to do.

567
00:31:23,224 --> 00:31:26,104
But the flip side of that coin is there's no way we can help you split

568
00:31:26,104 --> 00:31:28,984
the coins

569
00:31:30,584 --> 00:31:33,224
without knowing the private key. So it's kind of like an impasse.

570
00:31:33,224 --> 00:31:35,864
But what every normal person

571
00:31:35,864 --> 00:31:38,344
should do is they should maybe like download the splitter tool or the

572
00:31:38,344 --> 00:31:40,824
software, but don't run it

573
00:31:40,824 --> 00:31:44,504
and just wait for like one or two weeks. And by then, you know,

574
00:31:44,504 --> 00:31:48,184
you'll either

575
00:31:48,184 --> 00:31:51,184
see people complaining online or you won't. But yeah,

576
00:31:51,184 --> 00:31:54,184
I think the right thing is to...

577
00:31:55,864 --> 00:31:58,424
I think someone will probably,

578
00:31:58,424 --> 00:32:00,984
it might be us or it might be someone else, but

579
00:32:01,944 --> 00:32:04,384
we may try to publish a standalone splitter that's like a really,

580
00:32:04,384 --> 00:32:06,824
really, really small piece

581
00:32:06,824 --> 00:32:08,877
of software.

582
00:32:08,877 --> 00:32:10,931
So it's very easy for people to kind of check through the source code or

583
00:32:10,931 --> 00:32:12,984
have the AI

584
00:32:12,984 --> 00:32:16,624
read the source code. And it will just,

585
00:32:16,624 --> 00:32:20,264
that would be the bare bones type of a thing.

586
00:32:21,224 --> 00:32:22,824
But yeah, our software will do it. Our wallet, you know,

587
00:32:22,824 --> 00:32:24,424
will do it automatically.

588
00:32:25,864 --> 00:32:27,664
But yeah, you have to import your real private key, which is,

589
00:32:27,664 --> 00:32:29,464
that's an insane thing to do

590
00:32:29,544 --> 00:32:33,424
under any circumstance. But yeah, that's what you have to do. But,

591
00:32:33,424 --> 00:32:37,304
you know, again, I don't,

592
00:32:37,304 --> 00:32:39,384
I'm not saying everyone should do that on day one immediately.

593
00:32:39,384 --> 00:32:41,464
That would be a very foolish decision.

594
00:32:42,104 --> 00:32:44,944
So just plan it out and then wait and then just, you know,

595
00:32:44,944 --> 00:32:47,784
wait for a little while.

596
00:32:48,984 --> 00:32:52,584
And when you get more comfortable with it, then do it.

597
00:32:52,664 --> 00:32:55,864
Well,

598
00:32:55,864 --> 00:32:59,064
the people would do it because they want to mine from the first block.

599
00:32:59,784 --> 00:33:02,304
Well, you can mine without, you know,

600
00:33:02,304 --> 00:33:04,824
you can mine without splitting your coins, of course.

601
00:33:04,824 --> 00:33:08,424
Exactly. But you have to derive your eCash address, right?

602
00:33:09,704 --> 00:33:13,864
Well, again, the L1 is going to be exactly the same as Bitcoin Core,

603
00:33:13,864 --> 00:33:18,104
just with like the name changed and like a few other things changed. So

604
00:33:19,064 --> 00:33:22,744
that should all be like very easy for people to get going.

605
00:33:29,064 --> 00:33:29,944
I wouldn't worry about that.

606
00:33:31,864 --> 00:33:34,704
And you also use the SIGHASH fork ID that Bitcoin Cash used for forking

607
00:33:34,704 --> 00:33:37,544
it?

608
00:33:37,544 --> 00:33:40,904
I don't. We're not using that, no.

609
00:33:41,464 --> 00:33:41,944
Okay.

610
00:33:48,504 --> 00:33:54,664
I wanted to see if I can encourage some more adversarial people up here.

611
00:33:54,664 --> 00:33:59,224
So, Paul, like you pointed to this tension where as Bitcoin fees,

612
00:33:59,224 --> 00:34:03,784
transaction fees are

613
00:34:03,784 --> 00:34:07,584
obviously needed in the long run on Bitcoin. As fees rise,

614
00:34:07,584 --> 00:34:11,384
it'll be hard to settle L2s.

615
00:34:12,264 --> 00:34:15,624
So it'll kind of make it so the punishment, transaction,

616
00:34:15,624 --> 00:34:18,984
I forget what it's called exactly,

617
00:34:18,984 --> 00:34:21,944
in Lightning, won't be able to be broadcasted.

618
00:34:22,504 --> 00:34:24,704
On the other hand, fees are very low.

619
00:34:24,704 --> 00:34:26,904
You're going to need a big block size or something

620
00:34:26,904 --> 00:34:30,424
to pay miners.

621
00:34:30,424 --> 00:34:33,944
And that's that's bad for many reasons that a lot of us know about.

622
00:34:34,904 --> 00:34:38,424
So, yeah, like what is the, I mean,

623
00:34:38,424 --> 00:34:41,944
I see this whole experiment as a way to be empirical

624
00:34:41,944 --> 00:34:45,224
about this and kind of make Bitcoiners and everybody confront this

625
00:34:45,224 --> 00:34:48,504
potential problem.

626
00:34:49,784 --> 00:34:52,984
And Drivechains is a kind of solution.

627
00:34:52,984 --> 00:34:56,184
You're going to have high fee paying settlement

628
00:34:56,184 --> 00:34:58,984
transactions that don't need to crowd out.

629
00:34:58,984 --> 00:35:01,784
So you're going to have a lot of people that

630
00:35:02,104 --> 00:35:04,104
don't need to crowd out so many L1 transactions.

631
00:35:04,104 --> 00:35:06,104
They could still be low fee.

632
00:35:07,624 --> 00:35:09,664
But, yeah,

633
00:35:09,664 --> 00:35:11,704
any like thoughts on that or what's the what's like the Bitcoiner

634
00:35:12,344 --> 00:35:15,704
response who's very sanguine about this potential problem?

635
00:35:16,584 --> 00:35:18,344
How do we settle L2s?

636
00:35:18,344 --> 00:35:20,704
I think it's interesting that both two groups of people thought that the

637
00:35:20,704 --> 00:35:23,064
L1 fee rates would

638
00:35:23,064 --> 00:35:28,744
be high. So first you had like Roger Vertype and they were saying, well,

639
00:35:29,704 --> 00:35:31,624
because they had experienced it themselves. So they said, oh, well,

640
00:35:31,624 --> 00:35:33,544
I experienced all these

641
00:35:33,544 --> 00:35:36,464
high fees when the fees go back up to $10 per transaction,

642
00:35:36,464 --> 00:35:39,384
$20 per transaction, $50 per

643
00:35:39,384 --> 00:35:41,824
transaction. They were like, when that happens,

644
00:35:41,824 --> 00:35:44,264
they'll just be a mass exodus. It'll be so

645
00:35:44,264 --> 00:35:46,424
embarrassing.

646
00:35:46,424 --> 00:35:48,584
Everyone will leave BTC and they'll come to Bitcoin Cash or whatever.

647
00:35:50,184 --> 00:35:53,104
So that was the thinking behind the large blockers.

648
00:35:53,104 --> 00:35:56,024
They expected L1 fees to go up and

649
00:35:56,184 --> 00:35:59,384
they're always waiting for, you know, waiting for Godot, like that play,

650
00:35:59,384 --> 00:36:02,584
you know, and they're

651
00:36:02,584 --> 00:36:04,264
just thinking one day this will happen and it will be a big success for

652
00:36:04,264 --> 00:36:05,944
us.

653
00:36:05,944 --> 00:36:08,904
Now, the second group of people were like the Dan Held type people.

654
00:36:08,904 --> 00:36:11,864
And they were saying,

655
00:36:11,864 --> 00:36:14,704
you know, very confidently in writing, they were saying, you know,

656
00:36:14,704 --> 00:36:17,544
because an international

657
00:36:17,544 --> 00:36:20,264
wire transfer is $75,

658
00:36:20,264 --> 00:36:22,984
the L1 fee rates will eventually be somewhere around there.

659
00:36:23,624 --> 00:36:25,544
And both of those groups were wrong because, you know,

660
00:36:25,544 --> 00:36:27,464
the equilibrium is just people don't

661
00:36:27,464 --> 00:36:30,424
like paying a high L1 fee. And so they just stopped doing it.

662
00:36:30,424 --> 00:36:33,384
They just won't pay. And

663
00:36:33,384 --> 00:36:36,464
especially as the payments world becomes more competitive, you know,

664
00:36:36,464 --> 00:36:39,544
in the past, you had

665
00:36:39,544 --> 00:36:41,464
to send wire transfer. Now you have Venmo. This was like, you know,

666
00:36:41,464 --> 00:36:43,384
there was a time

667
00:36:43,384 --> 00:36:45,504
before Venmo had been invented. There was a time before WeChat Pay.

668
00:36:45,504 --> 00:36:47,624
There was a time

669
00:36:48,424 --> 00:36:51,904
before Zelle. There was a time before all this stuff was invented.

670
00:36:51,904 --> 00:36:55,384
And the equilibrium cost

671
00:36:55,384 --> 00:36:59,064
for normal fiat payment is now like very low.

672
00:36:59,064 --> 00:37:02,744
There was a time before credit cards were invented.

673
00:37:02,744 --> 00:37:08,224
So what I'm getting at is the fee rates,

674
00:37:08,224 --> 00:37:13,704
I don't think they can be very high, even in a

675
00:37:13,704 --> 00:37:16,384
Drivechain world. The L2 fee rate would be like $0.10,

676
00:37:16,384 --> 00:37:19,064
which I think is like lower,

677
00:37:19,064 --> 00:37:21,464
like between $0.01 and $0.10.

678
00:37:21,464 --> 00:37:23,864
The reason why I don't think it'd go much lower is because,

679
00:37:23,864 --> 00:37:25,664
you know, once it's down to $0.10,

680
00:37:25,664 --> 00:37:27,464
you don't actually save that much money by making it that

681
00:37:27,464 --> 00:37:29,624
much lower. You know what I mean? You're only saving like $0.10.

682
00:37:29,624 --> 00:37:31,784
So you're saving like $0.09

683
00:37:31,784 --> 00:37:33,504
if you go from $0.10 to $0.01.

684
00:37:33,504 --> 00:37:35,224
And most people are not going to care about saving $0.09.

685
00:37:36,344 --> 00:37:39,784
So I think the L2 equilibrium fee would be like something around $0.10

686
00:37:39,784 --> 00:37:43,224
per transaction.

687
00:37:43,784 --> 00:37:47,664
The L1 fee will be like higher.

688
00:37:47,664 --> 00:37:51,544
My guess is it could be like $1 or $2 or maybe $3 per transaction.

689
00:37:53,464 --> 00:37:55,744
But yeah, that's what I think the equilibrium is. Now,

690
00:37:55,744 --> 00:37:58,024
as you pointed out at the beginning of your

691
00:37:58,024 --> 00:38:01,144
question, Lightning kind of wants to have it both ways. And either way,

692
00:38:01,144 --> 00:38:04,264
it doesn't work.

693
00:38:04,264 --> 00:38:07,504
So either Lightning says, well, L1 fee rates will be super high,

694
00:38:07,504 --> 00:38:10,744
but people will only have to,

695
00:38:10,744 --> 00:38:13,504
like on their 15th birthday, their dad, their father will give them,

696
00:38:13,504 --> 00:38:16,264
they'll buy them a car,

697
00:38:16,264 --> 00:38:18,944
and they'll say, and we opened your, here's your Lightning channel.

698
00:38:18,944 --> 00:38:21,624
And they'll pay like a $200 fee

699
00:38:21,624 --> 00:38:23,171
or a $75 fee.

700
00:38:23,171 --> 00:38:24,717
They open this channel and then they'll never need to close or rebalance

701
00:38:24,717 --> 00:38:26,264
the

702
00:38:26,264 --> 00:38:30,064
channel or it will be very rare.

703
00:38:30,064 --> 00:38:33,864
But as I pointed out many times on the Bitcoin Dev mailing list

704
00:38:33,864 --> 00:38:36,744
in my article, Lightning Limitations,

705
00:38:36,744 --> 00:38:39,624
and I pointed it out at the TabConf Lightning debate,

706
00:38:41,464 --> 00:38:44,064
none of this works at all because when the fee rate is that high,

707
00:38:44,064 --> 00:38:46,664
it's called the justice

708
00:38:46,664 --> 00:38:50,384
transaction, by the way, it has a very silly name.

709
00:38:50,384 --> 00:38:54,104
And the justice transaction, it requires so many

710
00:38:54,104 --> 00:38:56,864
bytes to write to the chain that it's almost as big as what an L1,

711
00:38:56,864 --> 00:38:59,624
regular L1 transaction is anyway.

712
00:39:00,012 --> 00:39:02,652
If it's, that's what it is,

713
00:39:02,652 --> 00:39:05,292
then you cannot process Lightning payments lower than that amount.

714
00:39:05,732 --> 00:39:09,239
But then the flip side of the Catch-22 is that the L1 fee rates are so

715
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,745
low that you don't need the Lightning network because the L1 works just

716
00:39:12,745 --> 00:39:16,252
fine.

717
00:39:16,812 --> 00:39:19,479
Lightning network has all these extra problems about needing a hot

718
00:39:19,479 --> 00:39:22,145
wallet, needing liquidity, you know, a long list,

719
00:39:22,145 --> 00:39:24,812
long giant list of problems.

720
00:39:25,812 --> 00:39:29,645
In practice,

721
00:39:29,645 --> 00:39:33,479
what happened is that everyone just defected to either custodial BTC,

722
00:39:33,479 --> 00:39:37,312
aka like banking,

723
00:39:37,312 --> 00:39:41,145
or they just left crypto and went back to fiat and they use,

724
00:39:41,145 --> 00:39:44,979
but now the big thing now is, is of course, temporarily we had Litecoin,

725
00:39:44,979 --> 00:39:48,812
it's Sergey from Bitrefill, he presented all this data.

726
00:39:49,812 --> 00:39:52,732
But then now everyone switched to stables, stable coins.

727
00:39:52,932 --> 00:39:56,359
So you can ask if Sergey from Bitrefill,

728
00:39:56,359 --> 00:39:59,785
Bitrefill is like a real company that has actual customers and the

729
00:39:59,785 --> 00:40:03,212
people buy gift cards with Bitcoin.

730
00:40:03,452 --> 00:40:07,272
Bitcoin dominated, I think, I think until 2021,

731
00:40:07,272 --> 00:40:11,092
Bitcoin was by far number one for internet commerce.

732
00:40:12,252 --> 00:40:16,172
But now it's stable coins and Litecoin, if you can believe that.

733
00:40:17,172 --> 00:40:21,712
And so this just speaks to what I'm trying to say about, you know,

734
00:40:21,712 --> 00:40:26,252
the average normal user, they want the low fees.

735
00:40:26,372 --> 00:40:28,612
So Dan Held was wrong.

736
00:40:30,412 --> 00:40:34,052
Roger Ver was sort of right, but he was, well,

737
00:40:34,052 --> 00:40:37,692
it's like why switch to Bitcoin Cash when you could just switch to

738
00:40:37,692 --> 00:40:41,332
Solana or you could switch to Tron or anything else.

739
00:40:41,412 --> 00:40:45,505
So, so anyway,

740
00:40:45,505 --> 00:40:49,599
those are some of my thoughts on the fees and why the fee picture is

741
00:40:49,599 --> 00:40:53,692
totally bleak without merge mined L2s.

742
00:40:53,892 --> 00:40:56,452
But if you do have merge mined L2s, then everything's fine.

743
00:40:57,132 --> 00:40:58,212
And that's the issue.

744
00:40:58,252 --> 00:41:01,479
But it's just one of the many cultural derangements of BTC that people

745
00:41:01,479 --> 00:41:04,705
either don't grasp this, or they just kind of,

746
00:41:04,705 --> 00:41:07,932
they think intellectually that's true.

747
00:41:07,932 --> 00:41:09,572
And then they just kind of shrug and move on.

748
00:41:09,772 --> 00:41:12,732
There's many things in Bitcoin where we just shrug and we just move on,

749
00:41:12,732 --> 00:41:15,692
like darknet markets going to Monero only.

750
00:41:15,692 --> 00:41:17,452
We just think, ah, you know, it's not a big deal.

751
00:41:18,452 --> 00:41:22,132
And and then same with these fee rates.

752
00:41:22,172 --> 00:41:24,292
You just think, oh, I guess everything's fine.

753
00:41:25,692 --> 00:41:29,052
Even though the low fee rates means that we don't have a lot of fee

754
00:41:29,052 --> 00:41:32,412
paying users and we don't have a lot of customers.

755
00:41:33,332 --> 00:41:36,752
No one has ever, you know, worked out the end game,

756
00:41:36,752 --> 00:41:40,172
or people say it can be a store value.

757
00:41:41,172 --> 00:41:43,212
We don't need transact, we don't need to transact.

758
00:41:43,212 --> 00:41:44,972
This is just a ticker that we buy.

759
00:41:47,972 --> 00:41:50,519
That might work,

760
00:41:50,519 --> 00:41:53,065
but it only works in a situation where there is not a second

761
00:41:53,065 --> 00:41:55,612
cryptocurrency that is going to be used in payments forever.

762
00:41:55,612 --> 00:41:58,972
That also has a fixed supply of 21 million.

763
00:41:58,972 --> 00:42:03,145
So that's the issue is like if if we don't race ahead as far as we as

764
00:42:03,145 --> 00:42:07,319
fast as we possibly can, if we don't try to compete with all of us,

765
00:42:07,319 --> 00:42:11,492
we got to compete like at the Olympic level.

766
00:42:11,812 --> 00:42:14,852
We got to be waking up at five forty five a.m.

767
00:42:14,852 --> 00:42:19,312
and training every day, because if someone else out there is,

768
00:42:19,312 --> 00:42:23,772
that just means that the project is in danger of being replaced.

769
00:42:23,772 --> 00:42:28,192
And I just think that's that's the basic disagreement is, you know,

770
00:42:28,192 --> 00:42:32,612
do we can we be complacent or can we just coast?

771
00:42:34,212 --> 00:42:35,372
OK, we have someone else.

772
00:42:35,372 --> 00:42:36,892
Let's see someone else's requested.

773
00:42:38,132 --> 00:42:39,532
Let me see. OK, here we go.

774
00:42:39,652 --> 00:42:40,892
Add a speaker. There we go.

775
00:42:41,012 --> 00:42:42,932
OK, Lord Doyle.

776
00:42:45,172 --> 00:42:46,532
Meowla dot fun.

777
00:42:47,532 --> 00:42:49,252
Yes. Hello, welcome to the stage.

778
00:42:50,252 --> 00:42:53,372
Hello, Paul, thanks for having me, can you hear me?

779
00:42:54,292 --> 00:42:55,292
I can hear you, yes.

780
00:42:56,812 --> 00:42:59,972
So my question today is about Solana, I guess.

781
00:43:01,652 --> 00:43:05,292
Because you probably know that Solana has thousands of people ready to

782
00:43:05,292 --> 00:43:08,932
embark.

783
00:43:08,932 --> 00:43:11,332
So my question is simple because I don't have I don't want to take much

784
00:43:11,332 --> 00:43:13,732
of your time.

785
00:43:13,732 --> 00:43:18,492
How do you plan to integrate the eCash Solana with your eCash?

786
00:43:19,132 --> 00:43:20,652
OK, there's no promises here.

787
00:43:20,692 --> 00:43:21,892
I don't want to promise anything.

788
00:43:21,932 --> 00:43:23,552
I want to keep this deliberately kind of vague, you know,

789
00:43:23,552 --> 00:43:25,172
I don't want to get.

790
00:43:25,172 --> 00:43:28,439
But here's what I was thinking was it would be fun as like a little

791
00:43:28,439 --> 00:43:31,705
promo to raise awareness and just have a little bit of fun, you know,

792
00:43:31,705 --> 00:43:34,972
hopefully in a harmless fun level.

793
00:43:35,012 --> 00:43:38,759
Maybe like a hundred coins, maybe a thousand coins, I don't know,

794
00:43:38,759 --> 00:43:42,505
just like a small amount and just say, OK,

795
00:43:42,505 --> 00:43:46,252
we'll give these to like the top owners or something like that so you

796
00:43:46,252 --> 00:43:49,999
can swap the the meme token that I have nothing to do with and I didn't

797
00:43:49,999 --> 00:43:53,745
create, although, you know, people have wired me into it,

798
00:43:53,745 --> 00:43:57,492
but and I would not have created it in my own free will.

799
00:43:57,492 --> 00:44:00,463
But I know that my I understand, you know,

800
00:44:00,463 --> 00:44:03,435
based on what I know about how Solana economy works or something,

801
00:44:03,435 --> 00:44:06,406
people just do if you don't get involved,

802
00:44:06,406 --> 00:44:09,378
people just do it anyway or impersonate you or they're just so I was

803
00:44:09,378 --> 00:44:12,349
like, OK, I probably, again,

804
00:44:12,349 --> 00:44:15,321
I had to weigh different issues here and I thought, OK,

805
00:44:15,321 --> 00:44:18,292
how can we how can we get something out of this?

806
00:44:18,292 --> 00:44:20,932
How can we make it kind of a little bit of fun and exciting?

807
00:44:20,932 --> 00:44:23,932
And I was thinking like, yeah, OK, some of the the presale coins,

808
00:44:23,932 --> 00:44:26,932
we could give them away, possibly,

809
00:44:26,932 --> 00:44:29,932
possibly we could give them away to people who own, you know,

810
00:44:29,932 --> 00:44:32,932
the top owners of the the meme coin and the meme coin with the

811
00:44:32,932 --> 00:44:35,932
understanding being that these meme coins are frivolous, you know,

812
00:44:35,932 --> 00:44:38,932
kind of games,

813
00:44:38,932 --> 00:44:41,932
but trying to have trying to give it some substance and have some a

814
00:44:41,932 --> 00:44:44,932
little bit of fun with it.

815
00:44:44,932 --> 00:44:48,432
So that's what that's probably all I'm going to say about that, because,

816
00:44:48,432 --> 00:44:51,932
of course, you know,

817
00:44:51,932 --> 00:44:55,432
these people are hanging on to your every word and then like

818
00:44:55,432 --> 00:44:58,932
screenshotting everything you say and clipping it and stuff.

819
00:44:58,932 --> 00:45:04,132
But I thought we could domesticate some of the the energy and we can

820
00:45:04,132 --> 00:45:09,332
raise awareness. And then I do want the hope if this project succeeds,

821
00:45:09,332 --> 00:45:14,532
it will have succeeded because all the altcoin communities make a little

822
00:45:14,532 --> 00:45:19,732
decision where they say, OK, listen,

823
00:45:19,732 --> 00:45:24,932
we've had a lot of fun here over in whatever, for example, Monero.

824
00:45:25,932 --> 00:45:28,932
OK, so the Monero people have changed the game and they I respect what

825
00:45:28,932 --> 00:45:31,932
they've accomplished.

826
00:45:32,932 --> 00:45:34,932
But it's difficult to be low ranking is, you know,

827
00:45:34,932 --> 00:45:36,932
there's number one on coin market cap and then there's like, you know,

828
00:45:36,932 --> 00:45:38,932
number thirty six or something.

829
00:45:39,932 --> 00:45:42,599
And same for Solana. It's like Solana is like, OK,

830
00:45:42,599 --> 00:45:45,265
if you really don't care about how expensive the full note is,

831
00:45:45,265 --> 00:45:47,932
then you can push the envelope, which is great.

832
00:45:48,932 --> 00:45:51,265
That's that's a good thing. But if this project succeeds,

833
00:45:51,265 --> 00:45:53,599
it'll be because all these people kind of run a little calculation and

834
00:45:53,599 --> 00:45:55,932
they think, OK, wait a minute.

835
00:45:56,932 --> 00:46:00,432
We can do everything that we're doing right now.

836
00:46:00,432 --> 00:46:03,932
And we can but we can do it as L2 of.

837
00:46:04,932 --> 00:46:07,682
The same we can all be in the same coin,

838
00:46:07,682 --> 00:46:10,432
and then the hope is that enough people jump ship and they just unite

839
00:46:10,432 --> 00:46:13,182
unites all these people,

840
00:46:13,182 --> 00:46:15,932
so I'm hoping that the altcoin people can reunite.

841
00:46:17,932 --> 00:46:21,932
All behind one coin, that's that's the idea, like that's the success.

842
00:46:22,932 --> 00:46:25,932
That's the success. What would be the word? I don't know.

843
00:46:25,932 --> 00:46:28,932
That's the you know, that's victory road, so to speak.

844
00:46:29,932 --> 00:46:33,182
Like that would be how we make this project the number one

845
00:46:33,182 --> 00:46:36,432
cryptocurrency would be if all these people decide, OK, listen,

846
00:46:36,432 --> 00:46:39,682
we've this has been great,

847
00:46:39,682 --> 00:46:42,932
but I don't like being ranked one hundred and twenty five.

848
00:46:43,932 --> 00:46:46,432
I've got this great idea and I know it's really good.

849
00:46:46,432 --> 00:46:48,932
And so then you just move the software over.

850
00:46:48,932 --> 00:46:52,432
Move try to move the community over and then you have a community where

851
00:46:52,432 --> 00:46:55,932
everyone can get what they want, but they're all participant.

852
00:46:56,932 --> 00:46:58,432
They're all sharing the same twenty one million coins.

853
00:46:58,432 --> 00:46:59,932
They're not making new coins.

854
00:47:00,932 --> 00:47:04,432
So that's the that's the idea. And so, yeah,

855
00:47:04,432 --> 00:47:07,932
but thanks for your question.

856
00:47:09,932 --> 00:47:13,932
Thank you, Paul. Yeah, one more one more thing.

857
00:47:14,932 --> 00:47:17,599
I also believe that through the meme coin,

858
00:47:17,599 --> 00:47:20,265
you can get a lot of people to endorse and jump ship to the really cash,

859
00:47:20,265 --> 00:47:22,932
you know.

860
00:47:23,932 --> 00:47:27,932
So it's a great way to market it because you have like maybe over 10,000

861
00:47:27,932 --> 00:47:31,932
people daily trading on Solana.

862
00:47:32,932 --> 00:47:35,932
So it gets a lot of attention. Thank you.

863
00:47:43,932 --> 00:47:49,265
OK, well, I think if I could interject,

864
00:47:49,265 --> 00:47:54,599
I think what I was trying to do here,

865
00:47:54,599 --> 00:47:59,932
he's not trying to market it.

866
00:47:59,932 --> 00:48:05,932
He's trying to. In a roundabout way, force Bitcoin developers to say,

867
00:48:05,932 --> 00:48:11,932
OK, let's start discussing how to make some real changes,

868
00:48:11,932 --> 00:48:17,932
how to help Bitcoin scale to billions of people.

869
00:48:18,932 --> 00:48:20,932
And if that doesn't come true, well,

870
00:48:20,932 --> 00:48:22,932
then eCash will become the number one.

871
00:48:23,932 --> 00:48:26,432
But if it and if if that does become true, well,

872
00:48:26,432 --> 00:48:28,932
then Bitcoin will scale to a billion billion people.

873
00:48:29,932 --> 00:48:32,932
Yeah, this is exactly right. But the thing is,

874
00:48:32,932 --> 00:48:35,932
I don't think it will work as a kind of forcing.

875
00:48:36,932 --> 00:48:40,932
Function unless, you know,

876
00:48:40,932 --> 00:48:44,932
the eCash has to compete with all of its strength,

877
00:48:44,932 --> 00:48:48,932
and that includes having good marketing and promotion.

878
00:48:49,932 --> 00:48:52,599
So I think it's actually related. It all overlaps, I think,

879
00:48:52,599 --> 00:48:55,265
because you want the competitor to be really strong in every way that it

880
00:48:55,265 --> 00:48:57,932
can be.

881
00:48:58,932 --> 00:49:01,599
But, yeah, I mean,

882
00:49:01,599 --> 00:49:04,265
I think the goal is ultimately to shift society towards a superior,

883
00:49:04,265 --> 00:49:06,932
better technology.

884
00:49:07,932 --> 00:49:11,599
And you can't do that if you, you know, if you build the technology,

885
00:49:11,599 --> 00:49:15,265
but it never it never shows up to the arena,

886
00:49:15,265 --> 00:49:18,932
then it might as well not exist, I think.

887
00:49:19,932 --> 00:49:21,932
So, well,

888
00:49:21,932 --> 00:49:23,932
certainly we're not getting there with Bitcoin Core rejecting OP_CAT.

889
00:49:24,932 --> 00:49:26,932
So that's you can see how that's totally dead end.

890
00:49:28,932 --> 00:49:30,599
OK,

891
00:49:30,599 --> 00:49:32,265
I always have a terrible problem with this thing because the interface

892
00:49:32,265 --> 00:49:33,932
is terrible.

893
00:49:33,932 --> 00:49:35,932
It says requested one. But if you click on that,

894
00:49:35,932 --> 00:49:37,932
then it just doesn't show up at all.

895
00:49:37,932 --> 00:49:39,432
And you have to click on the person's name.

896
00:49:39,432 --> 00:49:40,932
But whatever I'm getting used to.

897
00:49:41,932 --> 00:49:44,932
OK, we have a Jerry some Jerry something.

898
00:49:45,932 --> 00:49:46,932
Hello.

899
00:49:49,932 --> 00:49:51,932
Oh, and then when people get brought up on the stage like it cuts,

900
00:49:51,932 --> 00:49:53,932
it moves them like 20.

901
00:49:53,932 --> 00:49:55,932
That's like a 20 second lag and then it catches them up.

902
00:49:55,932 --> 00:49:57,932
And then so they're always like.

903
00:49:58,932 --> 00:49:59,932
Discombobulated.

904
00:50:00,932 --> 00:50:02,932
But hopefully he shows up.

905
00:50:02,932 --> 00:50:03,932
So.

906
00:50:04,932 --> 00:50:05,932
Hit accept.

907
00:50:15,932 --> 00:50:16,932
OK.

908
00:50:22,932 --> 00:50:23,932
Or maybe not, I don't know.

909
00:50:24,932 --> 00:50:26,932
Let me see what happened to him.

910
00:50:28,932 --> 00:50:29,932
I don't know.

911
00:50:30,932 --> 00:50:31,932
Maybe he left.

912
00:50:32,932 --> 00:50:33,932
I'm not sure.

913
00:50:33,932 --> 00:50:36,932
Or the space is just going to crash like I don't know the spaces.

914
00:50:36,932 --> 00:50:37,932
I think it's kind of janky.

915
00:50:37,932 --> 00:50:38,932
The software, honestly.

916
00:50:38,932 --> 00:50:40,932
I think Clubhouse works a little better.

917
00:50:40,932 --> 00:50:41,932
No offense.

918
00:50:42,932 --> 00:50:43,932
But.

919
00:50:44,932 --> 00:50:46,932
I don't know what happened to that person,

920
00:50:46,932 --> 00:50:48,932
but maybe they will leave and come back.

921
00:50:50,932 --> 00:50:51,932
I tried to add him up.

922
00:50:57,932 --> 00:50:59,932
It looks like he keeps trying to request.

923
00:51:00,932 --> 00:51:01,932
Oh, OK, let me see.

924
00:51:02,932 --> 00:51:03,932
Let me scroll down.

925
00:51:03,932 --> 00:51:04,932
Right.

926
00:51:04,932 --> 00:51:05,932
OK.

927
00:51:07,932 --> 00:51:08,932
OK.

928
00:51:10,932 --> 00:51:12,932
I'm manually invited someone with the same.

929
00:51:13,932 --> 00:51:14,932
Profile picture.

930
00:51:15,932 --> 00:51:16,932
I don't know.

931
00:51:16,932 --> 00:51:17,932
You know, this software is really weird.

932
00:51:19,932 --> 00:51:20,932
Hello.

933
00:51:20,932 --> 00:51:21,932
Hey, man.

934
00:51:21,932 --> 00:51:22,932
Hey, everyone.

935
00:51:23,932 --> 00:51:24,932
Paul, I love.

936
00:51:25,932 --> 00:51:27,932
I love what you're doing with the hard fork and the.

937
00:51:28,932 --> 00:51:29,932
The.

938
00:51:29,932 --> 00:51:30,932
The.

939
00:51:30,932 --> 00:51:31,932
The.

940
00:51:31,932 --> 00:51:34,932
I love what you're doing with the hard fork and the Bitcoin funny.

941
00:51:35,932 --> 00:51:36,932
I had.

942
00:51:37,932 --> 00:51:38,932
I don't know.

943
00:51:38,932 --> 00:51:39,932
Can I be heard?

944
00:51:39,932 --> 00:51:40,932
I don't know if it can be heard at all.

945
00:51:40,932 --> 00:51:41,932
I know.

946
00:51:41,932 --> 00:51:42,932
I hear you.

947
00:51:42,932 --> 00:51:43,932
Yes.

948
00:51:43,932 --> 00:51:44,932
Yeah.

949
00:51:44,932 --> 00:51:45,932
Oh, cool, man.

950
00:51:45,932 --> 00:51:46,932
I've been looking into it and stuff.

951
00:51:47,932 --> 00:51:49,932
And, you know, I had the idea a while back.

952
00:51:50,932 --> 00:51:53,932
I actually DM'd you about it about a week ago.

953
00:51:53,932 --> 00:51:55,932
I think it was maybe a little bit longer.

954
00:51:56,932 --> 00:51:58,932
I tried to send you a video of what I did.

955
00:51:58,932 --> 00:52:02,932
I was trying to recreate the time chain that Satoshi had at the B1 at

956
00:52:02,932 --> 00:52:06,932
the very beginning.

957
00:52:07,932 --> 00:52:10,932
I did it on Solana on the test net.

958
00:52:11,932 --> 00:52:15,932
And the way I implemented it was a proof of time.

959
00:52:17,932 --> 00:52:21,932
Not just proof of work, but proof of time concept in it.

960
00:52:22,932 --> 00:52:27,432
And I used a mint of the coin on the test net,

961
00:52:27,432 --> 00:52:31,932
21 million tokens on Solana.

962
00:52:32,932 --> 00:52:37,432
I created a vault program for it and I made it to where you could only

963
00:52:37,432 --> 00:52:41,932
mint using a mobile.

964
00:52:42,932 --> 00:52:48,432
And it was hard capped per day as well to play out over the period of

965
00:52:48,432 --> 00:52:53,932
two years.

966
00:52:54,932 --> 00:52:59,932
But again, like I said, I had it done and I did it a few months back.

967
00:53:00,932 --> 00:53:02,932
And I have a video and stuff of it.

968
00:53:02,932 --> 00:53:06,932
And I tried to send it to you, but the DMs wouldn't let me.

969
00:53:06,932 --> 00:53:08,932
It just let me send you a message about it.

970
00:53:09,932 --> 00:53:10,932
I will check.

971
00:53:11,932 --> 00:53:13,932
Twitter has changed everything around, which is partially good.

972
00:53:14,932 --> 00:53:18,932
But yeah, often I feel really bad because if I open my messages,

973
00:53:18,932 --> 00:53:22,932
you have to go to an obscure corner where it says requests or something.

974
00:53:22,932 --> 00:53:24,932
And then I see all these people who have tried to message me over the

975
00:53:24,932 --> 00:53:26,932
years.

976
00:53:27,932 --> 00:53:28,932
And then you're like, oh.

977
00:53:28,932 --> 00:53:29,932
Because it really hides them.

978
00:53:30,932 --> 00:53:33,932
And so sorry about that if I didn't see your message.

979
00:53:33,932 --> 00:53:36,932
Most of the people who have tried to swap proof of work for something

980
00:53:36,932 --> 00:53:39,932
else have not succeeded.

981
00:53:40,932 --> 00:53:45,932
But we need a world where people keep tinkering and experimenting.

982
00:53:46,932 --> 00:53:49,932
And that's the world that we need.

983
00:53:49,932 --> 00:53:52,932
And the smart thing to do is to try to harness all of that innovation.

984
00:53:53,932 --> 00:53:56,265
And it's a really good thing, I think,

985
00:53:56,265 --> 00:53:58,599
that there are so many people out there who want to spend their free

986
00:53:58,599 --> 00:54:00,932
time learning and creating.

987
00:54:01,932 --> 00:54:02,932
And I think that's great.

988
00:54:02,932 --> 00:54:06,432
And it's like you never know what life experiences will lead someone to

989
00:54:06,432 --> 00:54:09,932
create the next big thing.

990
00:54:09,932 --> 00:54:10,932
So I think that's…

991
00:54:11,932 --> 00:54:12,932
Absolutely.

992
00:54:12,932 --> 00:54:15,932
And there's stuff there that I didn't know about.

993
00:54:15,932 --> 00:54:20,432
Like, I mean, when I was diving into, earlier on this year,

994
00:54:20,432 --> 00:54:24,932
when I was diving into the white paper and what the original vision was.

995
00:54:25,932 --> 00:54:26,932
And I know they rolled out the white paper.

996
00:54:26,932 --> 00:54:30,932
And I mean, to me, Bitcoin is beautiful, what they have done.

997
00:54:32,932 --> 00:54:34,932
I'm guessing it's a team.

998
00:54:35,932 --> 00:54:37,932
Don't know who they are, of course.

999
00:54:39,932 --> 00:54:43,932
We have our speculations and who's behind it and stuff.

1000
00:54:44,932 --> 00:54:50,932
But I love the simplicity, but the complexity on top of it.

1001
00:54:51,932 --> 00:54:53,932
Bitcoin in itself.

1002
00:54:54,932 --> 00:54:55,932
It is a beautiful thing.

1003
00:54:56,932 --> 00:54:59,932
Like, when you look back on it, it is a work of art.

1004
00:54:59,932 --> 00:55:03,265
Like,

1005
00:55:03,265 --> 00:55:06,599
it's never been broken since it got to the point where there couldn't be

1006
00:55:06,599 --> 00:55:09,932
a 51% attack on the network.

1007
00:55:09,932 --> 00:55:12,932
I see it as a work of absolute beauty.

1008
00:55:13,932 --> 00:55:15,932
But I didn't know about yourself, Paul.

1009
00:55:15,932 --> 00:55:21,432
I knew nothing about you or anything until I stumbled upon that eCash

1010
00:55:21,432 --> 00:55:26,932
meme coin that had showed up in Solana.

1011
00:55:26,932 --> 00:55:30,932
And I like to play about a little bit, you know, from time to time.

1012
00:55:30,932 --> 00:55:33,932
And so, seeing that,

1013
00:55:33,932 --> 00:55:36,932
and then it just drew me back on to what I had been working on a few

1014
00:55:36,932 --> 00:55:39,932
months back, you know.

1015
00:55:40,932 --> 00:55:43,432
And yeah,

1016
00:55:43,432 --> 00:55:45,932
I would absolutely love for you to see the video at some point.

1017
00:55:48,932 --> 00:55:49,932
Just to check it out.

1018
00:55:49,932 --> 00:55:53,932
I know it's nothing special or anything.

1019
00:55:53,932 --> 00:55:56,932
It was fun to make.

1020
00:55:57,932 --> 00:55:59,932
It's a small side project.

1021
00:55:59,932 --> 00:56:01,932
I never did anything with it.

1022
00:56:01,932 --> 00:56:04,432
But I would love your input on it at some point,

1023
00:56:04,432 --> 00:56:06,932
whenever you get the time.

1024
00:56:06,932 --> 00:56:08,932
I know you're a busy fella.

1025
00:56:09,932 --> 00:56:10,932
Yeah.

1026
00:56:10,932 --> 00:56:12,932
Thank you.

1027
00:56:12,932 --> 00:56:14,932
I will try to check it out.

1028
00:56:14,932 --> 00:56:18,932
And, you know, it is fun to create things.

1029
00:56:18,932 --> 00:56:22,932
And there's like a story about someone is lost on a mountainside,

1030
00:56:22,932 --> 00:56:26,932
and they get a bunch of people together to look.

1031
00:56:26,932 --> 00:56:28,932
This is a metaphor for research.

1032
00:56:28,932 --> 00:56:32,265
So, some people, one team checks the north side of the mountain,

1033
00:56:32,265 --> 00:56:35,599
one checks the west, a different team checks the east,

1034
00:56:35,599 --> 00:56:38,932
and then another team checks the south.

1035
00:56:38,932 --> 00:56:42,932
And then they find the person in the south.

1036
00:56:42,932 --> 00:56:45,182
But then it doesn't mean that, like,

1037
00:56:45,182 --> 00:56:47,432
you wouldn't go back to the base camp and then say, oh, well, you know,

1038
00:56:47,432 --> 00:56:49,682
it was a waste of time to check the west side of the mountain or

1039
00:56:49,682 --> 00:56:51,932
whatever.

1040
00:56:52,932 --> 00:56:55,932
So, we want to live in a world where all these people are kind of,

1041
00:56:55,932 --> 00:56:58,932
you know, exploring things and trying things.

1042
00:56:58,932 --> 00:57:02,932
Even if they don't work, that doesn't mean they're not worth doing.

1043
00:57:02,932 --> 00:57:05,932
Because you don't know in advance,

1044
00:57:05,932 --> 00:57:08,932
which I think will later end up being the key to something important.

1045
00:57:10,932 --> 00:57:12,932
Okay, now, like, where are the haters, you know?

1046
00:57:12,932 --> 00:57:13,932
Where are the haters?

1047
00:57:13,932 --> 00:57:14,932
They're not here.

1048
00:57:14,932 --> 00:57:16,932
They're too cowardly to show their face, of course.

1049
00:57:16,932 --> 00:57:17,932
Right?

1050
00:57:18,932 --> 00:57:20,932
You've got haters, Paul?

1051
00:57:20,932 --> 00:57:22,932
I mean, that's a good thing, man.

1052
00:57:22,932 --> 00:57:23,932
You need that.

1053
00:57:23,932 --> 00:57:24,932
I completely agree.

1054
00:57:24,932 --> 00:57:26,599
No,

1055
00:57:26,599 --> 00:57:28,265
it's kind of like there's a set of all the things in the world that are

1056
00:57:28,265 --> 00:57:29,932
worth doing.

1057
00:57:29,932 --> 00:57:32,932
Like, you could rank everything from good to bad.

1058
00:57:32,932 --> 00:57:36,432
But then you could, you know, you could turn that ranking into, like,

1059
00:57:36,432 --> 00:57:39,932
a big square or something, and you could say a grid.

1060
00:57:40,932 --> 00:57:45,932
And you could say, well, some things are good, and they also sound good.

1061
00:57:46,932 --> 00:57:49,932
And, you know, you can make money doing them.

1062
00:57:50,932 --> 00:57:51,932
And they're very popular.

1063
00:57:51,932 --> 00:57:56,932
It's a good and popular, and then there's good and unpopular.

1064
00:57:57,932 --> 00:58:01,932
And very few people are going to be doing the good and unpopular things.

1065
00:58:01,932 --> 00:58:04,932
And, you know, those are the things you got to do.

1066
00:58:04,932 --> 00:58:05,932
Someone's got to do those.

1067
00:58:05,932 --> 00:58:07,932
So, I'm happy to do that.

1068
00:58:07,932 --> 00:58:09,932
And, you know,

1069
00:58:09,932 --> 00:58:11,932
I've known a lot of these people in the Bitcoin community for a long

1070
00:58:11,932 --> 00:58:13,932
time.

1071
00:58:13,932 --> 00:58:15,932
It's like that meme about, it's like the Rick and Morty episode.

1072
00:58:15,932 --> 00:58:17,932
He's like, your booze mean nothing.

1073
00:58:17,932 --> 00:58:18,932
I've seen what makes you cheer.

1074
00:58:18,932 --> 00:58:21,932
I've seen these same people cheer on, you know, the Lightning Network,

1075
00:58:21,932 --> 00:58:24,932
and they cheer on Taproot and whatever.

1076
00:58:24,932 --> 00:58:27,932
These people don't know anything, so it's like, whatever.

1077
00:58:27,932 --> 00:58:30,932
But, yeah, like, you know, here I am.

1078
00:58:30,932 --> 00:58:31,932
I made time.

1079
00:58:31,932 --> 00:58:34,432
I took two hours out of my very busy, now,

1080
00:58:34,432 --> 00:58:36,932
these last two or three weeks.

1081
00:58:36,932 --> 00:58:38,932
Usually it's not so busy, you know,

1082
00:58:38,932 --> 00:58:40,932
but these last two weeks have been pretty busy.

1083
00:58:41,932 --> 00:58:43,932
And, yeah, just here I am.

1084
00:58:43,932 --> 00:58:44,932
Yeah, message your friends.

1085
00:58:44,932 --> 00:58:47,932
Go find, we could, you know, we could link to the announcement tweet.

1086
00:58:47,932 --> 00:58:50,932
Although, probably everyone has seen it by now.

1087
00:58:50,932 --> 00:58:54,432
But, there are all these people in there who are complaining and saying,

1088
00:58:54,432 --> 00:58:57,932
oh, you know, blah, blah, blah, complaint.

1089
00:58:57,932 --> 00:58:59,932
You know, where are they?

1090
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:01,980
Now, where are they now?

1091
00:59:01,980 --> 00:59:04,600
They can come, they can join, and they can,

1092
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:06,680
some people I do block, and I think then

1093
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:09,160
they can't join the space, so.

1094
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:11,920
But I don't block people just because they disagree.

1095
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:14,760
What I do is sometimes I block people if they're like,

1096
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:17,240
okay, a lot of stuff's just obvious spam.

1097
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:18,440
A lot of stuff's just obvious bots,

1098
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:21,560
like promoting, like, products and things.

1099
00:59:22,580 --> 00:59:24,520
And then you have people who just,

1100
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:25,360
like, if people just, like,

1101
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:27,760
if you have, like, a serious text argument,

1102
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:31,800
and then people just drop, like, a reaction GIF.

1103
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:34,360
The thing is, a GIF, you know,

1104
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:37,800
a GIF is like high-octane stimulus, you know?

1105
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:38,640
It's like a really bright,

1106
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:40,080
it's like you go into a library,

1107
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:42,400
and someone's, like, shining a bright light

1108
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:46,040
and making a bunch of, playing loud music there.

1109
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:48,880
And it's kind of like, so I often block that.

1110
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:52,320
I think, don't just put a GIF,

1111
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:53,920
because you're not, it's not a fair fight.

1112
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:54,960
Okay, wait, here we go.

1113
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:56,800
We'll press, okay, I added,

1114
00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:58,320
I think I figured out how to do the speaker thing,

1115
00:59:58,320 --> 00:59:59,160
right, this time.

1116
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:02,480
Okay, we got crypto something.

1117
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:05,360
Crypto voice.

1118
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:09,280
Let me see.

1119
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:10,120
What is going on?

1120
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:13,080
Is this, I don't know if I'm not doing this right.

1121
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:14,120
Oh, Crypto Voyager.

1122
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:14,960
Okay, there it is.

1123
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:16,280
So he shows up, but then they go away.

1124
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:17,680
Is this me doing something wrong here?

1125
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:18,520
I don't think so.

1126
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:21,720
No, you have to be more patient

1127
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:23,520
until the speaker comes on up.

1128
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:24,360
There we go.

1129
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:26,040
I hear you.

1130
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:27,320
Okay, okay.

1131
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:28,160
Hi, Paul.

1132
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:31,680
First of all, I wish you all the best,

1133
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:34,640
because honestly, we need a little shake up.

1134
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:36,320
So that's, so that's nice.

1135
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:39,960
I do have some questions,

1136
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:42,680
because I still don't understand the whole thing.

1137
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:46,120
So we have, we have, with eCash,

1138
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:48,440
we would have smaller blocks,

1139
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:51,000
and then everything else would be a sidechain.

1140
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:52,400
Now, my question is,

1141
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:55,040
and it has been going on for a long time,

1142
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:57,040
on BTC, the miner security,

1143
01:00:57,040 --> 01:01:01,720
so the funding of the mining equipment

1144
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:06,720
is basically the block reward, which is diminishing.

1145
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:11,200
How is the sustainability of eCash?

1146
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:13,640
Or maybe, I just came in like 10 minutes ago,

1147
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:15,840
so I don't know if you have talked about that

1148
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:17,760
in the white paper that you guys published.

1149
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:19,240
I didn't see anything of that.

1150
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:23,600
So my question is the sustainability of the mining.

1151
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:26,000
That's what, is it endogenous

1152
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:28,240
of the transactions on the sidechains?

1153
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:30,120
They pay for the miners?

1154
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:34,160
Or is it exogenous saying, well, number will go up?

1155
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:35,600
That's my only question.

1156
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:37,440
No, it is.

1157
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:40,040
One of the reasons why I became interested

1158
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:41,440
in this project in the first place

1159
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:44,800
is because it has to come from transaction fees.

1160
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:49,800
And the block subsidy, it halves every four years,

1161
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:52,800
but that means it drops by something like 95%

1162
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:54,440
every 16 years.

1163
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:56,000
And we've honestly just been bailed out.

1164
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:57,640
Everyone has been misled.

1165
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:01,600
Over the past 16 years of Bitcoin's history,

1166
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:06,640
the price of Bitcoin has gone up literally like 99 million%.

1167
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:07,800
That's not even a joke.

1168
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:10,760
It's gone from like one cent to $100,000.

1169
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:12,720
So it's gone up like literally,

1170
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:14,680
we're talking like in the millions,

1171
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:19,120
a hundred million, a hundred million percent range.

1172
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:19,960
You know, it's got,

1173
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:22,200
because to go from 10 cents to a hundred thousand

1174
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:26,160
is one million X is 99 million percent ROI.

1175
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:30,560
So we've had this totally freak event

1176
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:32,360
that cannot happen in the future.

1177
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:34,800
Even if Bitcoin takes over the whole world,

1178
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:37,640
it cannot go up another 99 million percent.

1179
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:40,240
It can only go up another like a hundred X.

1180
01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:42,480
We can only go up like 9,000%.

1181
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:46,720
It's a pretty big difference between 9,000 and 99 million%.

1182
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:50,240
So anyway, the idea of,

1183
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:53,400
so yeah, I wrote an article called

1184
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:55,200
Security Budget in the Long Run.

1185
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:56,240
And then I wrote another article

1186
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:58,360
about security budget and merge mining.

1187
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:01,120
You can find all this on Truthcoin.info,

1188
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:03,960
which is my Bitcoin blog.

1189
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:10,160
And so yeah, it's much easier.

1190
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:13,640
Like the high fees are unsustainable

1191
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:15,520
because people get annoyed by the fee.

1192
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:17,680
And then they think, well, I love Bitcoin,

1193
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:19,240
but how can I avoid paying this fee?

1194
01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:20,320
They're not going to enjoy paying.

1195
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:23,200
Like if the fee is $70 worth of purchasing power,

1196
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:26,760
like if the fee, you can either send one Bitcoin transaction

1197
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:30,720
or you can pay for dinner, dinner for two at a restaurant.

1198
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:34,200
Like if that's the purchasing power level of the fee,

1199
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:36,040
then that's, people are not going to like that.

1200
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:38,120
They're going to prefer to have more dinners out

1201
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:39,080
than pay the fee.

1202
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:41,840
So it's much more sustainable to live in a world

1203
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:44,080
where you have a high volume of transactions

1204
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:46,320
that all pay a small fee.

1205
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:47,680
And with the merge mine L2s,

1206
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:49,520
you can kick all of these off L1.

1207
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:53,160
You can keep the L1 node inexpensive

1208
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:56,800
and you can keep the block size low on L1.

1209
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:58,040
And you kick them to the L2.

1210
01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:00,120
So all these L2s are merge mined.

1211
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:05,040
So the miners don't do any extra work, none whatsoever.

1212
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:08,280
And yet they collect 100% of the fees.

1213
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:12,120
So they get all the money on the L2 chain.

1214
01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:13,720
And this is an extremely important point

1215
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:17,960
because I presented this at Opnext in 2024,

1216
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:20,280
I think maybe November, I don't know.

1217
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:25,280
But the point is, imagine a world where

1218
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:28,800
something out there, you know, right now there's,

1219
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:31,680
the whole planet earth has all these people

1220
01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:32,600
transacting on it.

1221
01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:34,120
Okay, they transact with Visa.

1222
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:36,320
They transact with cash.

1223
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:37,240
They use WeChat Pay.

1224
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:38,560
They use something.

1225
01:04:38,560 --> 01:04:40,000
Okay.

1226
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:42,600
Now imagine they all switch to like some Bitcoin L2.

1227
01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:46,440
Like imagine they all switch to Lightning.

1228
01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:49,520
That would never happen, but just imagine that it happened.

1229
01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:52,960
Then all the Lightning, the LSPs,

1230
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:55,760
Lightning Service Provider or the big routing nodes

1231
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:56,880
or just whoever it is.

1232
01:04:57,840 --> 01:04:59,080
For this part of the argument,

1233
01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:00,880
it doesn't even matter who it is.

1234
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:02,840
The point is, it's just not the miners.

1235
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:06,760
Some other people are making 10 cents

1236
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:09,160
on 9 trillion transactions per year.

1237
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:11,560
There's $900 billion per year.

1238
01:05:11,560 --> 01:05:13,680
This is a huge amount of money.

1239
01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:16,640
And yes, you have a hand up.

1240
01:05:16,640 --> 01:05:17,680
Please interrupt.

1241
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:19,760
Yes.

1242
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:21,440
No, no, I didn't want to interrupt.

1243
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:23,320
That's why I put my hand up.

1244
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:24,160
Okay, fine.

1245
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:25,840
So it's merge mining.

1246
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:29,360
The transaction fees of the sidechains

1247
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:32,760
pay then for the L1 security.

1248
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:33,800
That's nice and dandy.

1249
01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:38,400
You said there is no extra cost then associated with it.

1250
01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:44,880
The sidechains, all that data that gets moved

1251
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:48,400
and slushed around in the, sorry for that word,

1252
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:51,680
but basically slushed around on the sidechains,

1253
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:54,200
where does that data then reside?

1254
01:05:54,200 --> 01:05:55,440
It's a very, very important question.

1255
01:05:55,440 --> 01:05:56,920
Now it's an ingenious question in fact,

1256
01:05:56,920 --> 01:06:01,920
because this is the problem with large blocks on L1.

1257
01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:05,280
And this is a problem with like Bitcoin SV, for example.

1258
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:09,440
The issue is you have to separate different issues.

1259
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:12,240
So there's the mining and then there's the nodes.

1260
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:16,680
And actually what the large blocker L1 Bitcoin SV

1261
01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:19,200
type people got wrong is they also said,

1262
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:21,360
well, just no one has to worry about paying this.

1263
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:23,400
So someone does have to pay.

1264
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:26,200
So the full node has a cost

1265
01:06:26,200 --> 01:06:28,040
and that is associated with all the data

1266
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:30,920
that has to be shipped around.

1267
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:34,000
And so because each blockchain has,

1268
01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:38,160
this is crucial to understand how the blockchain works,

1269
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:41,560
which is that you need to be able to download

1270
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:43,000
and validate all the blocks.

1271
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:47,560
So someone has to send you the block data.

1272
01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:49,240
Then you have to store it on your hard drive.

1273
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:52,720
Your CPU has to run through it all and validate it all.

1274
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:54,680
And then you have to be willing to serve it back

1275
01:06:54,680 --> 01:06:57,520
to other people because it's a little bizarre

1276
01:06:57,520 --> 01:07:00,240
for you to expect to be able to get it from other people

1277
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:03,040
if you're not willing to participate in giving it out.

1278
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:07,000
So there's this total full node cost

1279
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:10,240
and this full node cost has nothing to do with mining,

1280
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:11,760
totally separate issue.

1281
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:13,480
But the full node cost does increase

1282
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:16,080
when the block size is higher

1283
01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:19,200
and it decreases when the block size is lower.

1284
01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:23,440
And the people who pay the full node costs

1285
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:26,520
are people who have some kind of business

1286
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:29,120
where they want, they need to know

1287
01:07:29,120 --> 01:07:30,920
if they are getting paid BTC.

1288
01:07:30,920 --> 01:07:35,040
So right now, it's all the people who are receiving BTC.

1289
01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:37,240
These are the people who get a benefit

1290
01:07:37,240 --> 01:07:38,680
from running a node.

1291
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:42,120
Because the question is, if there's all these costs,

1292
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:43,680
why is someone willing to pay?

1293
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:47,920
So Kraken today, Coinbase today,

1294
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:49,640
these people are running nodes

1295
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:51,680
because people deposit crypto to them.

1296
01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:55,040
They're in a very adversarial,

1297
01:07:55,040 --> 01:07:56,760
they're in the business of providing liquidity.

1298
01:07:56,760 --> 01:07:58,640
So people send them stuff

1299
01:07:58,640 --> 01:07:59,480
and then they want to swap it

1300
01:07:59,480 --> 01:08:00,520
and then they want to withdraw.

1301
01:08:00,520 --> 01:08:01,840
The customers want to withdraw.

1302
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:03,240
They want to withdraw their USD

1303
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:04,720
or their whatever they bought.

1304
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:09,080
So in the future,

1305
01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:12,560
whoever is receiving BTC,

1306
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:14,600
they need to know, hey, am I actually,

1307
01:08:14,600 --> 01:08:15,600
do I actually, you know,

1308
01:08:15,600 --> 01:08:17,800
someone says they sent me seven BTC,

1309
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:19,440
but did they actually do that?

1310
01:08:19,440 --> 01:08:21,160
Well, they need to run the full node.

1311
01:08:21,160 --> 01:08:24,120
So this is the full node cost is high.

1312
01:08:24,120 --> 01:08:25,400
It just happens to be the,

1313
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:27,960
I see you have your hand up again

1314
01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:31,200
and I will get to you after I finish the sentence,

1315
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:35,440
which is it happens to be the case now

1316
01:08:35,440 --> 01:08:38,800
that because bandwidth prices have fallen,

1317
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:41,320
because hard drive prices have fallen,

1318
01:08:41,320 --> 01:08:42,320
stuff is very different now

1319
01:08:42,320 --> 01:08:44,720
than even it was in the block size wars in 2015.

1320
01:08:44,720 --> 01:08:46,280
That was 10 years ago.

1321
01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:49,920
So back then, the bottleneck was bandwidth,

1322
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:52,320
but that's actually not even true anymore.

1323
01:08:52,320 --> 01:08:54,640
And we've published tests, you know,

1324
01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:56,680
where you can have very large blocks

1325
01:08:56,680 --> 01:08:59,000
and still run them on computers

1326
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:02,760
that cost basically the same now

1327
01:09:02,760 --> 01:09:04,280
as a percentage of people's wage

1328
01:09:04,280 --> 01:09:08,400
as they did 10 years ago in the BTC world.

1329
01:09:08,400 --> 01:09:12,080
So actually this cost is a very small cost

1330
01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:13,760
and it's nothing.

1331
01:09:13,760 --> 01:09:17,280
The full node costs for these large block L2s

1332
01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:20,840
is nothing compared to the transaction fee revenue.

1333
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:25,320
And so I'll just, let me just recap a couple of things.

1334
01:09:25,320 --> 01:09:28,200
I wrote this article called All the World's Transactions.

1335
01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:31,520
That's on Truthcoin.info that you can read.

1336
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:34,080
You can see what's the value of like 10 cents

1337
01:09:34,080 --> 01:09:36,600
into all these transactions in the world.

1338
01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:37,920
That's the mining revenue.

1339
01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:39,840
And then you can look at,

1340
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:44,840
I did a performance contest with the software last summer.

1341
01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:46,840
And you can see for yourself,

1342
01:09:46,840 --> 01:09:49,160
I have the exact numbers and these exact tests

1343
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:52,240
that you can run on GitHub using GitHub's computers.

1344
01:09:52,240 --> 01:09:56,200
And you can see how inexpensive the node is

1345
01:09:56,200 --> 01:10:00,880
that does this huge, like 960 megabyte blocks.

1346
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:03,080
And if you had 14 of them,

1347
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:07,360
this would be able to cover all of the transactions

1348
01:10:07,360 --> 01:10:08,200
in the world.

1349
01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:09,840
And so, yes, okay, now I'm done talking.

1350
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:11,720
So please continue.

1351
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:19,640
As I understand, with the sidechains,

1352
01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:23,720
I would be able to create my own sidechains

1353
01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:25,280
with all bells and whistles

1354
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:30,280
and anchor it security-wise to the L1.

1355
01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:33,280
If my chain has all the bells and whistles

1356
01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:38,280
and I get on it the data and I don't know,

1357
01:10:38,360 --> 01:10:42,880
AI agents paying another AI agent and all that other stuff,

1358
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:46,680
you said that people receiving BTC need to have a node.

1359
01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:50,440
Well, if my sidechain with all bells and whistles

1360
01:10:50,440 --> 01:10:54,480
has, well, petabytes of data sloshing around,

1361
01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:58,840
would every single customer of mine

1362
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:00,600
or every single market participant

1363
01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:05,600
of my bells and whistles sidechain need to have a node?

1364
01:11:05,840 --> 01:11:09,080
And isn't that, the question is,

1365
01:11:09,080 --> 01:11:14,080
why would I have to store somebody else's data on my node?

1366
01:11:14,080 --> 01:11:14,920
That's my question.

1367
01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:17,760
I have to tell you that these questions,

1368
01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:20,640
which I think are pretty basic questions,

1369
01:11:20,640 --> 01:11:21,880
but for some reason,

1370
01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:24,960
there has been a lot of confusion about these questions.

1371
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:27,640
And even throughout the block size war,

1372
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:32,200
I personally felt that both the small blockers

1373
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:34,160
and the large blockers never got around

1374
01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:35,800
to straightening this out.

1375
01:11:37,120 --> 01:11:39,560
So either, everyone listening should either be like,

1376
01:11:39,560 --> 01:11:43,400
oh, like Paul Stewart's genius or crank.

1377
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:44,240
You know what I mean?

1378
01:11:44,240 --> 01:11:46,880
Because either there's something really weird about me

1379
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:48,800
and I'm right,

1380
01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:51,680
or I'm just totally delusional about this.

1381
01:11:51,680 --> 01:11:53,480
But I think these questions are really, really important.

1382
01:11:53,480 --> 01:11:54,360
And I think all of them are very,

1383
01:11:54,360 --> 01:11:55,640
very easy to answer, honestly.

1384
01:11:55,640 --> 01:11:57,520
But for some reason,

1385
01:11:57,520 --> 01:11:59,560
there's been widespread confusion about this point,

1386
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:00,680
because for example,

1387
01:12:00,680 --> 01:12:02,120
maybe this isn't interesting to people,

1388
01:12:02,120 --> 01:12:03,760
but it's interesting to me,

1389
01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:05,800
like why does everyone believe what they believe?

1390
01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:07,800
The Bitcoin SV people,

1391
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:10,320
they want to say that they want to have it both ways.

1392
01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:12,000
And they want to say like,

1393
01:12:12,040 --> 01:12:14,600
oh, miners will provide all this data

1394
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:15,880
because they're making so much money,

1395
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:18,120
but then they say no one is forced to run it.

1396
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:20,360
Anyway, let me just get to your actual question,

1397
01:12:20,360 --> 01:12:25,320
which was why are people being forced to run a full node?

1398
01:12:26,240 --> 01:12:27,520
And the answer is you're exactly right.

1399
01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:30,040
No one is ever forced to run a full node.

1400
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:33,800
You could use your friend's full node.

1401
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:35,920
And this is basically how SPV works.

1402
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:37,600
It's basically how Electrum works.

1403
01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:41,560
However, so what everyone has to do is,

1404
01:12:41,560 --> 01:12:44,760
it's kind of like hiring security for an event, okay?

1405
01:12:44,760 --> 01:12:48,480
Everyone has to make their own cost benefit decision.

1406
01:12:48,480 --> 01:12:51,400
It's kind of like you have valuables like in your house.

1407
01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:53,960
Some of them you just leave on the table, you know?

1408
01:12:55,120 --> 01:12:56,400
Like I don't like to sit on my wallet,

1409
01:12:56,400 --> 01:12:57,680
so I just throw my wallet on,

1410
01:12:57,680 --> 01:12:59,880
or I leave it in my jacket pocket.

1411
01:12:59,880 --> 01:13:03,240
You just leave it on the hook near the door.

1412
01:13:03,240 --> 01:13:05,280
And then other stuff, maybe you have like a safe,

1413
01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:07,920
or maybe you have stuff like buried somewhere.

1414
01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:10,520
So each person decides,

1415
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:14,360
okay, the full node will give me more confidence

1416
01:13:14,360 --> 01:13:17,920
that I have really received a transaction.

1417
01:13:17,920 --> 01:13:20,760
However, you're not required to do that.

1418
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:21,640
And this, I think, you know,

1419
01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:23,280
like even Peter Todd and other people,

1420
01:13:23,280 --> 01:13:25,520
like they got really on this bizarre track

1421
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:28,240
where they, for some reason,

1422
01:13:28,240 --> 01:13:30,120
they have all these rules in their head,

1423
01:13:30,120 --> 01:13:31,360
and Luke Dashjr. also,

1424
01:13:31,360 --> 01:13:33,520
about like when it's absolutely required

1425
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:36,120
to run a node versus not required.

1426
01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:37,560
And it doesn't really make a lot of,

1427
01:13:37,560 --> 01:13:39,040
I think not if it doesn't make any sense.

1428
01:13:39,040 --> 01:13:41,360
So the full node helps you understand

1429
01:13:41,360 --> 01:13:44,080
if you've received coins,

1430
01:13:44,080 --> 01:13:47,880
but there's no sense in which it's mandatory.

1431
01:13:47,880 --> 01:13:50,800
There's a completely separate issue.

1432
01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:54,760
Yet another issue is if someone designs an L2

1433
01:13:55,680 --> 01:13:57,560
such that it is infinitely expensive,

1434
01:13:57,560 --> 01:13:58,560
it's so expensive,

1435
01:13:58,560 --> 01:14:00,440
or it's just maybe it's not infinitely expensive,

1436
01:14:00,440 --> 01:14:03,040
but it's so expensive that no one wants to run it.

1437
01:14:04,720 --> 01:14:06,960
Well, then the new L2 chain that, you know,

1438
01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:11,480
no one will know how to assemble the next block

1439
01:14:12,360 --> 01:14:13,880
and nothing, you know,

1440
01:14:13,880 --> 01:14:15,720
no transactions will ever go through,

1441
01:14:15,720 --> 01:14:17,040
or no one will know.

1442
01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:20,000
So no one will be able to get the block data

1443
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:21,000
from someone else.

1444
01:14:21,000 --> 01:14:22,720
And so that chain will just kind of die off.

1445
01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:23,560
So in that sense,

1446
01:14:23,560 --> 01:14:26,360
it's kind of like you open a store

1447
01:14:26,360 --> 01:14:28,400
and you go to a strip mall or something,

1448
01:14:28,400 --> 01:14:30,680
and you open a store and you say,

1449
01:14:30,680 --> 01:14:32,040
I'm going to sell this store,

1450
01:14:32,040 --> 01:14:35,840
but the store has expenses that are so expensive

1451
01:14:35,840 --> 01:14:39,320
that the store can't continue to like, you know,

1452
01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:40,680
hire employees and stuff.

1453
01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:41,800
It runs, it goes bankrupt.

1454
01:14:41,800 --> 01:14:44,240
So the sidechain can go bankrupt

1455
01:14:44,240 --> 01:14:46,360
in the sense of being badly designed.

1456
01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:48,200
No one can get the full node software to work.

1457
01:14:48,200 --> 01:14:49,720
The full node software is too expensive.

1458
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:51,280
It crashes people's computers.

1459
01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:54,200
And so the sidechain just kind of would die off

1460
01:14:54,200 --> 01:14:55,040
in that case.

1461
01:14:56,280 --> 01:14:57,880
Okay, so now I know that Justin put his hand up,

1462
01:14:57,880 --> 01:15:00,880
but I think let's just try to get CryptoVovo

1463
01:15:03,200 --> 01:15:05,280
to maybe finish a thought,

1464
01:15:05,720 --> 01:15:07,520
and then we'll go back to Justin, I think.

1465
01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:10,240
CryptoVoyagers is the name.

1466
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:16,280
You said that sidechains might die.

1467
01:15:16,280 --> 01:15:18,800
That sounds like on a long enough term,

1468
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:20,800
on a long enough timeline,

1469
01:15:20,800 --> 01:15:22,440
all sidechains will die.

1470
01:15:22,440 --> 01:15:25,840
And if I already know that the sidechain will die,

1471
01:15:25,840 --> 01:15:27,360
if it gets too,

1472
01:15:27,360 --> 01:15:29,640
if it has too many bells and whistles

1473
01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:32,440
and everybody would have to have a petabytes

1474
01:15:32,440 --> 01:15:35,760
and zettabytes of size nodes,

1475
01:15:36,600 --> 01:15:38,440
then they would,

1476
01:15:38,440 --> 01:15:40,560
why would I go into that sidechain

1477
01:15:40,560 --> 01:15:43,360
knowing that it will die because of popularity?

1478
01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:46,080
The answer is that you should not,

1479
01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:48,600
but the sidechain can L,

1480
01:15:48,600 --> 01:15:51,480
the L2 can have its own block size limit.

1481
01:15:51,480 --> 01:15:53,920
So there's no reason why it would have petabytes.

1482
01:15:53,920 --> 01:15:57,840
In fact, if you had one that was like a privacy specialist,

1483
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:00,760
something like a zSide,

1484
01:16:00,760 --> 01:16:02,280
a Zcash sidechain,

1485
01:16:03,280 --> 01:16:05,040
in that context,

1486
01:16:05,040 --> 01:16:07,720
it wouldn't necessarily need a very large block size.

1487
01:16:07,720 --> 01:16:09,280
But I think there would be people

1488
01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:10,560
who want to push the envelope

1489
01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:12,080
like a Solana type sidechain,

1490
01:16:12,080 --> 01:16:12,920
where they just say,

1491
01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:15,640
well, let's see how far our Bitcoin SV sidechain.

1492
01:16:15,640 --> 01:16:19,720
But yeah, that's something that the user has to weigh.

1493
01:16:21,200 --> 01:16:23,200
I think all this is exactly how it should be.

1494
01:16:23,200 --> 01:16:24,640
Like all this is very healthy

1495
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:25,880
because the user has to decide,

1496
01:16:25,880 --> 01:16:28,080
your coins start on L1.

1497
01:16:28,080 --> 01:16:30,360
No one can force you into any sidechain.

1498
01:16:30,360 --> 01:16:32,120
So they have to entice you over

1499
01:16:32,960 --> 01:16:33,800
and they have to say, listen,

1500
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:35,320
if you come over here,

1501
01:16:35,320 --> 01:16:37,320
you have to download a whole second node

1502
01:16:38,280 --> 01:16:40,920
and it's going to be more expensive to run the node

1503
01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:43,760
and the sidechain might die.

1504
01:16:43,760 --> 01:16:45,080
But they have to entice you over

1505
01:16:45,080 --> 01:16:46,280
with some kind of feature,

1506
01:16:46,280 --> 01:16:49,680
like low fees or extra privacy

1507
01:16:49,680 --> 01:16:51,720
or some other feature,

1508
01:16:51,720 --> 01:16:53,800
like a prediction market sidechain

1509
01:16:53,800 --> 01:16:55,520
or the identity sidechain.

1510
01:16:55,520 --> 01:16:56,680
So it's kind of like,

1511
01:16:56,680 --> 01:16:58,960
why would you switch from BTC to Solana?

1512
01:16:58,960 --> 01:17:00,800
It's like, they have to,

1513
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:03,920
well, okay, Solana has a more expensive node,

1514
01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:07,560
but it has other stuff that is popular with users.

1515
01:17:07,560 --> 01:17:09,600
And you don't have to move your life savings

1516
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:10,760
over there permanently.

1517
01:17:12,160 --> 01:17:14,960
You just maybe move your pocket change over.

1518
01:17:14,960 --> 01:17:18,640
Maybe you earn a large salary,

1519
01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:21,400
but you only have your monthly expenses,

1520
01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:24,720
one month's total in the L2 chain,

1521
01:17:24,720 --> 01:17:26,400
but that's where most of your transacting is done.

1522
01:17:26,400 --> 01:17:28,120
That's where your boss pays you

1523
01:17:28,120 --> 01:17:30,080
and that's where you buy your groceries

1524
01:17:30,080 --> 01:17:30,920
and stuff like that.

1525
01:17:30,920 --> 01:17:33,680
So the chain might only have 5,000 coins,

1526
01:17:33,680 --> 01:17:36,880
but it could still do an enormous amount of turn.

1527
01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:38,640
The same five coins could turn over

1528
01:17:40,280 --> 01:17:44,920
thousands of times more than the L1 coins.

1529
01:17:44,920 --> 01:17:47,000
Now, I just think we should go to Justin.

1530
01:17:50,280 --> 01:17:52,440
Yeah, see, Yaniv's down there in the audience.

1531
01:17:52,440 --> 01:17:53,600
You may want to bring him up

1532
01:17:53,600 --> 01:17:55,200
or if he raises his hand,

1533
01:17:55,200 --> 01:17:57,360
he was in your lightning debate.

1534
01:17:57,400 --> 01:17:58,400
And then also,

1535
01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:04,280
yeah, is there like a daily payments,

1536
01:18:05,760 --> 01:18:08,280
like your daily transactions type of sidechain?

1537
01:18:08,280 --> 01:18:11,240
And then to address kind of the further questions

1538
01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:14,040
about the nuts and bolts of like,

1539
01:18:14,040 --> 01:18:18,440
where's the BitAssets, the NFT, the ordinals,

1540
01:18:18,440 --> 01:18:20,160
where's that data actually stored?

1541
01:18:20,160 --> 01:18:21,200
As far as I understand,

1542
01:18:21,200 --> 01:18:23,360
it'll be stored at the exchanges

1543
01:18:23,360 --> 01:18:27,240
or it'll be stored on the miners of the L2 sidechains,

1544
01:18:28,120 --> 01:18:32,520
just to kind of break it down in normie terms.

1545
01:18:32,520 --> 01:18:33,800
Is that?

1546
01:18:33,800 --> 01:18:38,560
No, the L2 nodes have the block data for the L2.

1547
01:18:38,560 --> 01:18:40,400
So it's not necessarily the miners.

1548
01:18:40,400 --> 01:18:42,480
And this is in fact, partly a problem.

1549
01:18:42,480 --> 01:18:43,680
This is partly like,

1550
01:18:43,680 --> 01:18:44,520
I think a lot of people

1551
01:18:44,520 --> 01:18:46,160
end up getting really confused about this

1552
01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:51,160
because miners, they are in the category of people

1553
01:18:51,680 --> 01:18:54,480
who do not necessarily need to run a node.

1554
01:18:54,480 --> 01:18:58,200
And in fact, the individual SHA-256 hasher people,

1555
01:18:58,200 --> 01:19:00,024
they just connect to like Foundry and then.

1556
01:19:00,024 --> 01:19:03,160
Foundry, you know, like they run a node. In theory, OK,

1557
01:19:03,160 --> 01:19:06,296
it was also suggested that actually Antpool,

1558
01:19:06,296 --> 01:19:09,432
Luxor and some other people,

1559
01:19:09,432 --> 01:19:12,568
there's like a website that shows the block,

1560
01:19:12,568 --> 01:19:15,704
the structure of the block while it's being mined.

1561
01:19:16,104 --> 01:19:20,344
It's thought that many of those people all use the same single node.

1562
01:19:21,184 --> 01:19:23,384
They're all just proxies, proxy pool.

1563
01:19:24,264 --> 01:19:27,896
And in theory, 100% of the miners, this is just in theory,

1564
01:19:27,896 --> 01:19:31,528
I'm just stressing this as an example,

1565
01:19:31,528 --> 01:19:35,160
but it's theoretically possible that every single pool would subscribe

1566
01:19:35,160 --> 01:19:38,792
to like, you know, some guy's node, like, you know,

1567
01:19:38,792 --> 01:19:42,424
Jeff from Wisconsin or something.

1568
01:19:42,904 --> 01:19:45,624
He has one node and that one node could run all the mine.

1569
01:19:45,784 --> 01:19:48,324
So each of the miners, again,

1570
01:19:48,324 --> 01:19:50,864
they have to make a cost benefit analysis where they say,

1571
01:19:50,864 --> 01:19:53,404
the node gives me more confidence that I'm really looking at the actual

1572
01:19:53,404 --> 01:19:55,944
Bitcoin blockchain.

1573
01:19:57,904 --> 01:20:01,304
And do I want to pay that cost?

1574
01:20:02,864 --> 01:20:05,757
Because a node costs a certain amount of computational resources,

1575
01:20:05,757 --> 01:20:08,651
so do I want to set up this node or do I,

1576
01:20:08,651 --> 01:20:11,544
am I unwilling to pay that cost?

1577
01:20:13,024 --> 01:20:14,384
And do I want to take the chance?

1578
01:20:14,384 --> 01:20:18,664
So I want to risk it and go without, but it'll be cheaper.

1579
01:20:18,704 --> 01:20:20,144
So each person has to decide.

1580
01:20:21,024 --> 01:20:23,464
I think the reason why it's so confusing is because no one actually has

1581
01:20:23,464 --> 01:20:25,904
to run a full node.

1582
01:20:25,904 --> 01:20:27,624
There's no literal requirement.

1583
01:20:28,504 --> 01:20:31,304
However, if no one's running a node,

1584
01:20:31,304 --> 01:20:34,104
then the network just basically stops existing.

1585
01:20:35,104 --> 01:20:39,104
So that's why if you work in Bitcoin development,

1586
01:20:39,104 --> 01:20:43,104
and this is what Eric Voskuhl does correctly with his project,

1587
01:20:43,104 --> 01:20:47,104
if you work on Bitcoin development, your mission in life,

1588
01:20:47,104 --> 01:20:51,104
your goal is to make the validation as fast, as cheap, as efficient,

1589
01:20:51,104 --> 01:20:55,104
as painless as possible.

1590
01:20:55,104 --> 01:20:56,984
Like, that's your, that's the job you're in.

1591
01:20:57,384 --> 01:20:57,704
Okay.

1592
01:20:57,704 --> 01:21:00,424
It's like you're like a cattle rancher.

1593
01:21:00,824 --> 01:21:02,744
You're in the job of selling meat.

1594
01:21:03,104 --> 01:21:09,224
You're in the job of raising animals and selling them as food.

1595
01:21:09,984 --> 01:21:12,464
And again, if you're like an agricultural farmer,

1596
01:21:12,464 --> 01:21:14,944
then you're selling corn or something.

1597
01:21:14,944 --> 01:21:16,104
That's the job.

1598
01:21:16,344 --> 01:21:20,024
The job is to sell as much corn as possible for maybe at the highest

1599
01:21:20,024 --> 01:21:23,704
price or lowest, but whatever, at the market price.

1600
01:21:23,984 --> 01:21:26,384
You're in the business of growing crops.

1601
01:21:26,384 --> 01:21:29,364
You know, if you work for a Ford motor company,

1602
01:21:29,364 --> 01:21:32,344
you're in the business of constructing, manufacturing cars.

1603
01:21:32,704 --> 01:21:36,477
And if the Bitcoin Core developers,

1604
01:21:36,477 --> 01:21:40,251
their mission should be make the node software as safe, reliable, cheap,

1605
01:21:40,251 --> 01:21:44,024
inexpensive, fast as possible.

1606
01:21:44,024 --> 01:21:45,424
Like that's the business they're in.

1607
01:21:46,024 --> 01:21:50,064
And so everyone should be focused on driving the cost down.

1608
01:21:50,344 --> 01:21:52,944
But of course, the cost of a full node is an optional cost, you know,

1609
01:21:52,944 --> 01:21:55,544
like at a philosophical level.

1610
01:21:55,544 --> 01:21:58,184
It's not like it's not like the full node is going to pull a gun on you

1611
01:21:58,184 --> 01:22:00,824
and say, like, you must run.

1612
01:22:01,504 --> 01:22:04,544
You must keep running me or something, you know, like the full node.

1613
01:22:04,544 --> 01:22:05,504
What does the full node do?

1614
01:22:05,504 --> 01:22:08,524
It lets you figure out if you're really being sent coins, because,

1615
01:22:08,524 --> 01:22:11,544
of course, everyone has an incentive to lie to you.

1616
01:22:12,224 --> 01:22:13,384
I hope that's obvious.

1617
01:22:13,384 --> 01:22:14,264
Someone will say, I go up to you.

1618
01:22:14,544 --> 01:22:16,864
Oh, yeah, I just sent you a thousand BTC.

1619
01:22:17,264 --> 01:22:17,904
Trust me.

1620
01:22:18,584 --> 01:22:22,824
Well, that's not a good situation because that invites lying.

1621
01:22:23,064 --> 01:22:27,524
And if we live in a world where the liars can get ahead and the honest

1622
01:22:27,524 --> 01:22:31,984
people suffer, then we're just living in a world that that penalizes.

1623
01:22:34,664 --> 01:22:36,264
Honesty, so we don't want that.

1624
01:22:36,624 --> 01:22:38,104
So that's that's what we want.

1625
01:22:38,104 --> 01:22:40,304
The full node costs to be as cheap as possible.

1626
01:22:40,904 --> 01:22:45,864
The Drivechain L2 idea basically says you can have a la carte plug ins.

1627
01:22:45,864 --> 01:22:48,184
You can say, OK, you run the L1 node,

1628
01:22:48,184 --> 01:22:50,504
but then you optionally run some of these other nodes.

1629
01:22:50,984 --> 01:22:53,864
There's like a whole set of them, like, you know, 20 or 30.

1630
01:22:53,864 --> 01:22:55,704
And you'd say, I want to run this this one and this one,

1631
01:22:55,704 --> 01:22:57,544
but not any of these.

1632
01:22:59,104 --> 01:23:00,544
And so that's the idea.

1633
01:23:00,544 --> 01:23:03,064
But, yeah, no one has to run a full node.

1634
01:23:03,904 --> 01:23:06,904
There's in a practical sense, Kraken and Coinbase,

1635
01:23:06,904 --> 01:23:09,904
these large exchanges, you know, practical sense,

1636
01:23:09,904 --> 01:23:12,904
they must run because their whole business is.

1637
01:23:14,464 --> 01:23:16,644
People sending me coins and then swapping the coins and then withdrawing

1638
01:23:16,644 --> 01:23:18,824
them.

1639
01:23:20,904 --> 01:23:23,064
OK, now we go back to Crypto Voyager.

1640
01:23:26,704 --> 01:23:29,917
Yeah,

1641
01:23:29,917 --> 01:23:33,131
Justin brought us Justin brought up something that that's that's that's

1642
01:23:33,131 --> 01:23:36,344
interesting and that that kind of like leads back to my to my question.

1643
01:23:36,664 --> 01:23:42,104
The NFTs, or better put, the data that I want to, well,

1644
01:23:42,104 --> 01:23:47,544
basically use that we already know because it's it's timestamp that it's

1645
01:23:47,544 --> 01:23:52,984
legitimate and everybody signed on that data.

1646
01:23:54,184 --> 01:23:56,624
That data is too expensive for L1.

1647
01:23:57,104 --> 01:23:58,744
It's too expensive for eCash.

1648
01:23:59,064 --> 01:23:59,904
It's even more.

1649
01:24:00,024 --> 01:24:02,344
It's going to be more expensive for eCash.

1650
01:24:02,904 --> 01:24:08,864
Sorry, sorry for eCash L1 because of the even smaller block sizes.

1651
01:24:08,864 --> 01:24:13,784
So that data has to be then on the L2s.

1652
01:24:14,264 --> 01:24:18,704
Now, let's if we go back 10 years, people said, oh, no,

1653
01:24:18,704 --> 01:24:23,144
we can do blockchains for land registry and all that other stuff.

1654
01:24:23,664 --> 01:24:28,884
So with my super duper bells and whistles sidechain, I now say, OK,

1655
01:24:28,884 --> 01:24:34,104
fine, let's let's do land registries and everything else.

1656
01:24:34,424 --> 01:24:35,744
And it works.

1657
01:24:36,064 --> 01:24:42,184
And 10 years down the road, land registry L2 goes bankrupt.

1658
01:24:42,624 --> 01:24:46,144
That I don't know, Paul,

1659
01:24:46,144 --> 01:24:49,664
that that that kind of like I got cold feet right now on the sidechains.

1660
01:24:50,224 --> 01:24:51,411
Well, what do you mean, though,

1661
01:24:51,411 --> 01:24:52,597
you're saying that the L2 data might be lost,

1662
01:24:52,597 --> 01:24:53,784
is that what you're saying?

1663
01:24:54,824 --> 01:24:57,984
Yes, the same thing happened, for example, in Ethereum.

1664
01:24:58,344 --> 01:25:04,344
So Ethereum was just a pointer to data on some centralized server.

1665
01:25:05,024 --> 01:25:11,424
So a lot of Ethereum NFTs, the payload is basically 404.

1666
01:25:11,624 --> 01:25:13,764
You still have a hash that points to to an IP address where it's

1667
01:25:13,764 --> 01:25:15,904
supposed to be.

1668
01:25:15,904 --> 01:25:19,544
But that IP address, well, the server behind that IP address is gone.

1669
01:25:20,664 --> 01:25:24,544
So so we can't we can't do that anymore.

1670
01:25:25,064 --> 01:25:28,424
We can't do that anymore for non-trivial stuff.

1671
01:25:28,624 --> 01:25:33,824
So whatever, moon cats or whatever, I don't care about those guys.

1672
01:25:34,024 --> 01:25:37,104
No, I mean, for example, land registries,

1673
01:25:37,104 --> 01:25:40,184
legal legal titles to to whatever.

1674
01:25:40,384 --> 01:25:42,744
Yeah. Evidence that something has been done.

1675
01:25:42,784 --> 01:25:47,851
We use we can use blockchains to timestamp that and to and to basically

1676
01:25:47,851 --> 01:25:52,917
account that that that the participants have signed on on on that thing

1677
01:25:52,917 --> 01:25:57,984
and that that data basically has has been created.

1678
01:25:58,784 --> 01:26:03,424
Yeah, we we we can pay a little bit more to store it.

1679
01:26:03,624 --> 01:26:05,104
And then we have the issue then.

1680
01:26:05,104 --> 01:26:07,171
Well,

1681
01:26:07,171 --> 01:26:09,237
the node provider where that service is is is stored also gets gets gets

1682
01:26:09,237 --> 01:26:11,304
a cut.

1683
01:26:11,504 --> 01:26:13,744
OK, well, the guy doesn't want to pay.

1684
01:26:13,944 --> 01:26:16,624
Doesn't matter.

1685
01:26:16,624 --> 01:26:19,304
We can the node provider can prune it according to the white paper.

1686
01:26:19,504 --> 01:26:22,757
However,

1687
01:26:22,757 --> 01:26:26,011
you as the owner of that data should have a copy of it where you can

1688
01:26:26,011 --> 01:26:29,264
then prove with the hash that it was part of the blockchain.

1689
01:26:29,264 --> 01:26:32,864
Yeah,

1690
01:26:32,864 --> 01:26:36,464
it's kind of like it's it's like a library without books where you can

1691
01:26:36,464 --> 01:26:40,064
prove that the book that you have on hand was part of that library.

1692
01:26:40,264 --> 01:26:43,284
OK. And with that, with with seven million people,

1693
01:26:43,284 --> 01:26:46,304
with seven million books,

1694
01:26:46,304 --> 01:26:49,324
you could recreate the library and everybody knows, yeah, OK,

1695
01:26:49,324 --> 01:26:52,344
that data was there and it hasn't been hasn't been tampered with.

1696
01:26:52,544 --> 01:26:54,304
So you might not be a full node.

1697
01:26:54,304 --> 01:26:57,771
You might only be somebody that has the possession of one single book,

1698
01:26:57,771 --> 01:27:01,237
but that book is proven on the block chain that it was part of the

1699
01:27:01,237 --> 01:27:04,704
library and hasn't been tampered with.

1700
01:27:04,904 --> 01:27:09,504
So so that removes the the necessity of of depending on the altruism of

1701
01:27:09,504 --> 01:27:14,104
the node provider that removes the necessity of well,

1702
01:27:14,104 --> 01:27:18,704
it doesn't remove the necessity of the library,

1703
01:27:18,704 --> 01:27:23,304
but it does remove the necessity of the node provider.

1704
01:27:23,304 --> 01:27:26,664
It doesn't remove the necessity of the L2 being alive, though,

1705
01:27:26,664 --> 01:27:30,024
that that's that's that's my question.

1706
01:27:30,224 --> 01:27:32,971
So so right now you're saying, yeah, well,

1707
01:27:32,971 --> 01:27:35,717
if I receive BTC and I receive them often enough,

1708
01:27:35,717 --> 01:27:38,464
I should run a full node.

1709
01:27:38,664 --> 01:27:43,424
But a full node in BTC means we have to also have the data of somebody

1710
01:27:43,424 --> 01:27:48,184
that is not that has nothing to do with us is not a customer is not a

1711
01:27:48,184 --> 01:27:52,944
provider.

1712
01:27:53,184 --> 01:27:55,504
He's living on the other far side of the world.

1713
01:27:55,704 --> 01:27:57,864
And not only that, that.

1714
01:27:58,064 --> 01:28:01,744
It can actually be pruned and people say, well, yeah,

1715
01:28:01,744 --> 01:28:05,424
but you have to run a full node.

1716
01:28:05,624 --> 01:28:09,924
Why do I have to run the data of some dude in Ouagadougou when I'm

1717
01:28:09,924 --> 01:28:14,224
somewhere in the Peruvian Andes?

1718
01:28:14,424 --> 01:28:16,664
Yeah,

1719
01:28:16,664 --> 01:28:18,904
that's those those are the issues that still haven't been cleared out.

1720
01:28:19,104 --> 01:28:21,064
And I understand.

1721
01:28:21,264 --> 01:28:22,504
I understand the viewpoint.

1722
01:28:22,504 --> 01:28:23,744
Let us make even smaller.

1723
01:28:23,944 --> 01:28:29,664
So so to discourage people to to to write on to the L1.

1724
01:28:29,864 --> 01:28:31,504
But people need to write somewhere.

1725
01:28:31,504 --> 01:28:33,064
So they're going to write on the L2.

1726
01:28:33,264 --> 01:28:37,384
And we're just pushing the issue to another layer.

1727
01:28:37,584 --> 01:28:39,824
And 10 minutes ago you said, well, yeah,

1728
01:28:39,824 --> 01:28:42,064
that's that's how we're doing it.

1729
01:28:42,264 --> 01:28:46,824
And if if if that layer is not

1730
01:28:47,624 --> 01:28:50,884
profitable enough, that layer, that layer could lack of a better term,

1731
01:28:50,884 --> 01:28:54,144
rock you,

1732
01:28:54,344 --> 01:28:57,364
which basically means, well,

1733
01:28:57,364 --> 01:29:00,384
I don't have any future security that that layer will exist.

1734
01:29:00,584 --> 01:29:04,384
The only kind of security that I have is that L1 will exist.

1735
01:29:04,584 --> 01:29:08,764
However,

1736
01:29:08,764 --> 01:29:12,944
my data is not is not valuable enough to spend seventy dollars per

1737
01:29:12,944 --> 01:29:14,304
transaction on it.

1738
01:29:14,504 --> 01:29:16,144
That's all I want.

1739
01:29:16,344 --> 01:29:18,904
I have to go to you.

1740
01:29:19,104 --> 01:29:19,944
OK, thanks.

1741
01:29:20,144 --> 01:29:23,984
So first of all, L1 is not guaranteed to exist.

1742
01:29:24,184 --> 01:29:26,544
I think no one is guaranteed existence.

1743
01:29:26,544 --> 01:29:28,744
And this is with the bitter comes the sweet.

1744
01:29:28,944 --> 01:29:32,424
You know, if the good comes to bad, which is to say,

1745
01:29:32,624 --> 01:29:35,044
if you were to say this data will always be here,

1746
01:29:35,044 --> 01:29:37,464
that's a good thing on one hand.

1747
01:29:37,664 --> 01:29:41,264
It's good for one person, but it's also a curse because it says

1748
01:29:41,264 --> 01:29:44,264
that someone out there is responsible for validating,

1749
01:29:44,264 --> 01:29:47,264
storing and serving.

1750
01:29:47,464 --> 01:29:50,384
The data from now until the end of time,

1751
01:29:50,584 --> 01:29:52,924
so it's everyone, you know,

1752
01:29:52,924 --> 01:29:55,264
everyone's one person's asset is another person's liability.

1753
01:29:55,464 --> 01:29:57,464
And in fact, we want there to be many layers

1754
01:29:57,664 --> 01:30:01,184
of different shapes and sizes to exactly combat this problem.

1755
01:30:01,384 --> 01:30:03,264
That is exactly the solution to the problem.

1756
01:30:03,464 --> 01:30:06,824
So you could break it into.

1757
01:30:07,024 --> 01:30:08,584
You know, you've got to separate issues again.

1758
01:30:08,584 --> 01:30:10,664
It's very hard and maybe it would be better to take out like a pen and a

1759
01:30:10,664 --> 01:30:12,744
piece

1760
01:30:12,744 --> 01:30:16,304
of paper, but it's not like so on one hand, you have the data itself.

1761
01:30:16,504 --> 01:30:18,104
So let's call it point one.

1762
01:30:18,304 --> 01:30:20,264
This is like the land registry.

1763
01:30:20,464 --> 01:30:25,784
OK, now then point two is you could timestamp the data.

1764
01:30:25,984 --> 01:30:29,984
OK, that's like a second.

1765
01:30:30,184 --> 01:30:33,704
Derivative form of this data and then three,

1766
01:30:33,864 --> 01:30:37,084
you have the full node concept where the data is stored and served

1767
01:30:37,084 --> 01:30:40,304
forever.

1768
01:30:40,504 --> 01:30:42,144
And it's also validated, in fact,

1769
01:30:42,344 --> 01:30:45,624
so you can actually overcome the double spend problem at this layer,

1770
01:30:45,624 --> 01:30:48,504
but not at the timestamping layer, because the timestamping layer,

1771
01:30:48,704 --> 01:30:51,444
you just have the receipt and you just say this data was submitted

1772
01:30:51,444 --> 01:30:54,184
before this time.

1773
01:30:54,384 --> 01:30:55,904
But you don't know if someone could have

1774
01:30:56,104 --> 01:31:01,824
submitted two contradictory pieces of data, for example.

1775
01:31:01,944 --> 01:31:03,584
I have the hash of it.

1776
01:31:03,784 --> 01:31:05,944
That's why I know that that data came first and that that data hasn't

1777
01:31:05,944 --> 01:31:08,104
been tampered

1778
01:31:08,304 --> 01:31:11,184
with or it does order, as I said, timestamps it.

1779
01:31:11,384 --> 01:31:13,184
But you don't know that someone can someone could say so you could say I

1780
01:31:13,184 --> 01:31:14,984
have

1781
01:31:15,184 --> 01:31:19,024
the hash and I have the Merkle branch and I have the receipt basically.

1782
01:31:19,224 --> 01:31:21,384
And I say that and it says, oh,

1783
01:31:21,584 --> 01:31:25,504
crypto voices owns, you know, excuse me, crypto Voyager.

1784
01:31:25,704 --> 01:31:29,744
Crypto Voyager owns 100 Main Street.

1785
01:31:29,984 --> 01:31:34,584
But you don't know anyone could go could suddenly, you know,

1786
01:31:34,784 --> 01:31:37,104
out of the blue, they could walk out,

1787
01:31:37,104 --> 01:31:39,424
walk up to the police station or something

1788
01:31:39,624 --> 01:31:42,584
and say, listen, I actually have an earlier timestamp

1789
01:31:42,784 --> 01:31:46,084
that says I own 100 Main Street

1790
01:31:46,084 --> 01:31:49,384
and I have a later one as well.

1791
01:31:49,584 --> 01:31:51,584
And so it does not solve the double spend problem.

1792
01:31:51,584 --> 01:31:53,144
So whatever the police decide to go with

1793
01:31:53,344 --> 01:31:56,664
the earlier one and say that yours was illegitimate or the later one,

1794
01:31:56,864 --> 01:31:58,664
yours was superseded.

1795
01:31:58,864 --> 01:32:02,664
It's only at the the third category.

1796
01:32:02,864 --> 01:32:05,464
Category one being the data itself.

1797
01:32:05,664 --> 01:32:09,344
You know, 100 Main Street owner land title.

1798
01:32:09,544 --> 01:32:12,244
Second layer being the timestamp,

1799
01:32:12,244 --> 01:32:14,944
only this third concept of the the full

1800
01:32:15,144 --> 01:32:19,424
node validated, stored, served and validated man,

1801
01:32:19,624 --> 01:32:21,784
which is another way of saying it's mandatory data that it must everyone

1802
01:32:21,784 --> 01:32:23,944
must

1803
01:32:24,144 --> 01:32:30,144
download process and then store and serve back to people.

1804
01:32:30,344 --> 01:32:31,944
This is mandatory data.

1805
01:32:32,144 --> 01:32:38,064
This is the only level that can mitigate the double spend problem.

1806
01:32:38,264 --> 01:32:39,664
And then you can have other weird layers, too,

1807
01:32:39,664 --> 01:32:41,064
like maybe there's like the header

1808
01:32:41,264 --> 01:32:44,504
chain, the L1 header chain that like runs through all the chains,

1809
01:32:44,704 --> 01:32:48,504
which is the where the proof of work is applied by the charge of six.

1810
01:32:48,704 --> 01:32:50,264
But we could go into other threads.

1811
01:32:50,264 --> 01:32:56,504
But what I would like to stress is right now, Bitcoin BTC,

1812
01:32:56,704 --> 01:32:58,064
this is again,

1813
01:32:58,064 --> 01:32:59,424
this is a problem with the Bitcoin SV people that they didn't

1814
01:32:59,624 --> 01:33:02,964
understand this BTC has a fixed

1815
01:33:02,964 --> 01:33:06,304
block size at the mandatory

1816
01:33:06,504 --> 01:33:12,304
data, the third category, the validated, stored, saved, served,

1817
01:33:12,504 --> 01:33:18,264
et cetera, mandatory that everyone must download and validate process.

1818
01:33:18,464 --> 01:33:21,644
This is a fixed block size of what was one megabyte and now four

1819
01:33:21,644 --> 01:33:24,824
megabytes.

1820
01:33:25,024 --> 01:33:29,704
However, it has an unlimited amount of space for timestamping data.

1821
01:33:29,904 --> 01:33:32,064
So you can do

1822
01:33:32,264 --> 01:33:33,964
you could just put take the hash and then you can have a hash of when

1823
01:33:33,964 --> 01:33:35,664
you have

1824
01:33:35,864 --> 01:33:38,824
Merkle root of other hashes is open timestamps.

1825
01:33:38,824 --> 01:33:40,224
There's several different projects.

1826
01:33:40,224 --> 01:33:41,744
This is like a lot of people back in the day.

1827
01:33:41,744 --> 01:33:43,664
This is a lot of people's like first Bitcoin project.

1828
01:33:43,864 --> 01:33:46,624
They would like write a paper or something.

1829
01:33:46,824 --> 01:33:48,944
They would take the SHA-256 hash,

1830
01:33:49,144 --> 01:33:53,224
you import it as a private key, and then maybe you send like one

1831
01:33:53,424 --> 01:33:55,544
Satoshi there and then send it back or something.

1832
01:33:55,744 --> 01:33:57,344
This is back in the day a long time ago.

1833
01:33:57,544 --> 01:34:03,184
So the the timestamping block size on BTC.

1834
01:34:03,384 --> 01:34:08,304
Is unlimited today, you could do that, you can if you want to just hash,

1835
01:34:08,504 --> 01:34:13,544
if you want to take the Lord of the Rings extended edition movie file,

1836
01:34:13,704 --> 01:34:17,544
you know, or a whole terabyte, eight terabyte hard drive.

1837
01:34:17,744 --> 01:34:21,824
And if you want to hash that, you can put the hash with other hashes

1838
01:34:22,024 --> 01:34:26,104
in a Merkle tree and it will end up just being 32 bytes

1839
01:34:26,304 --> 01:34:28,344
on L1.

1840
01:34:28,544 --> 01:34:31,244
And so you you can do you can fit an unlimited number of one

1841
01:34:31,244 --> 01:34:33,944
transaction.

1842
01:34:34,144 --> 01:34:35,464
Yes, right.

1843
01:34:35,664 --> 01:34:38,344
One transaction. I can I can do that 5000 times.

1844
01:34:38,544 --> 01:34:40,624
And I already filled the block.

1845
01:34:41,624 --> 01:34:44,664
Yeah, but I'm saying if you want to do 5000 land documents,

1846
01:34:44,664 --> 01:34:47,664
all you have to do is put those in a Merkle tree and then it's down.

1847
01:34:47,864 --> 01:34:53,944
It can always be shrunk over and over again to 32 bytes forever.

1848
01:34:54,144 --> 01:34:56,304
So no matter how much

1849
01:34:56,504 --> 01:35:00,224
then the smallest thing that you can do is a one transaction blockchain.

1850
01:35:00,424 --> 01:35:01,984
You have everything in the world.

1851
01:35:02,184 --> 01:35:04,824
Yeah, the one transaction.

1852
01:35:05,024 --> 01:35:06,464
This is the header chain, actually,

1853
01:35:06,464 --> 01:35:09,344
if you think about it, because each block, each header,

1854
01:35:09,344 --> 01:35:12,304
each 80 byte header in Bitcoin has the hash of the previous block.

1855
01:35:12,504 --> 01:35:15,424
So that's the one transaction.

1856
01:35:15,624 --> 01:35:18,704
In a way, in a sort of yeah, but if I

1857
01:35:18,904 --> 01:35:21,864
sorry to interrupt, but if I batch all those things,

1858
01:35:22,064 --> 01:35:26,264
yeah, and just make one single hash, I cannot work with it

1859
01:35:26,464 --> 01:35:30,944
because the whole hash chain is somewhere else.

1860
01:35:31,144 --> 01:35:33,624
So so I have the data anyway.

1861
01:35:33,824 --> 01:35:37,984
Yeah, I have to have hard disks and hard disk and data.

1862
01:35:38,984 --> 01:35:41,624
Anyway, I'm saying but that's what I'm saying is this is a good thing,

1863
01:35:41,624 --> 01:35:43,904
because this is what I'm saying with the bitter comes to sweet,

1864
01:35:44,104 --> 01:35:45,344
with the good comes the bad.

1865
01:35:45,544 --> 01:35:46,984
So.

1866
01:35:47,264 --> 01:35:53,184
With the L2s, you you can customize it and you can say.

1867
01:35:54,424 --> 01:35:56,104
Instead of it, because remember,

1868
01:35:56,304 --> 01:35:58,584
the L1 isn't guaranteed to exist either,

1869
01:35:58,584 --> 01:36:00,864
which is the last thing you had said,

1870
01:36:01,064 --> 01:36:04,544
you know, it could all go away, but you can say, OK,

1871
01:36:04,704 --> 01:36:08,584
we're forming a group with all these people.

1872
01:36:08,784 --> 01:36:11,384
And we think that together.

1873
01:36:11,864 --> 01:36:13,624
You know, the full node costs are low

1874
01:36:13,824 --> 01:36:18,584
enough and the value add of the transaction is high enough.

1875
01:36:18,784 --> 01:36:22,224
Where this group of people is likely to have a viable L2.

1876
01:36:22,424 --> 01:36:25,424
Now, there's no guarantee that you'll be correct when you do that,

1877
01:36:25,624 --> 01:36:27,864
but this is a lot better than just saying it all has to be mandatory

1878
01:36:27,864 --> 01:36:30,104
data,

1879
01:36:30,264 --> 01:36:34,424
which is the Bitcoin SV route, or it all has to be optional data,

1880
01:36:34,624 --> 01:36:38,464
which would be kind of like the BTC timestamp route.

1881
01:36:38,664 --> 01:36:40,064
With this, I'm letting I'm letting you

1882
01:36:40,264 --> 01:36:44,104
customize more, you know, in the interior.

1883
01:36:44,304 --> 01:36:45,864
And you can say, well, OK, listen,

1884
01:36:46,064 --> 01:36:49,944
we're going to have this big payments chain for all of Southeast Asia.

1885
01:36:50,144 --> 01:36:51,984
And it's you know, and this has a lot

1886
01:36:52,184 --> 01:36:55,624
of economic viability to it and you think, well, hey,

1887
01:36:55,824 --> 01:36:59,664
this this one is a healthy chain.

1888
01:36:59,904 --> 01:37:03,984
Produces huge revenues and the full node costs are very low.

1889
01:37:04,184 --> 01:37:08,504
So people think, OK, we can we'll put data in here.

1890
01:37:09,304 --> 01:37:11,944
That's I think that's perfectly fair.

1891
01:37:12,144 --> 01:37:14,704
And then there could be a different chain where

1892
01:37:14,904 --> 01:37:17,664
for whatever reason, it's just not popular and people get rid of it.

1893
01:37:17,664 --> 01:37:20,584
But if something's not popular, then that's a clue that it should just

1894
01:37:20,784 --> 01:37:23,664
be deleted from the world, that's just how the world works.

1895
01:37:23,864 --> 01:37:24,864
I think that's a good thing.

1896
01:37:29,864 --> 01:37:32,864
Somebody's requested, I think.

1897
01:37:45,464 --> 01:37:49,064
I don't see, but I see Justin's hand up so we could do Justin.

1898
01:37:49,264 --> 01:37:51,184
I've noticed that the little dots that blink up and down have stopped

1899
01:37:51,184 --> 01:37:53,104
doing

1900
01:37:53,104 --> 01:37:55,704
that, which usually happens before this app crashes.

1901
01:37:55,904 --> 01:37:59,504
So hopefully it won't crash, but it may.

1902
01:37:59,704 --> 01:38:03,304
Oh, no, that was just that I didn't have a question.

1903
01:38:03,504 --> 01:38:05,624
OK, now who tried to request?

1904
01:38:05,824 --> 01:38:07,904
I didn't see I don't see them.

1905
01:38:08,104 --> 01:38:12,504
But as I've already said, I do see it.

1906
01:38:12,704 --> 01:38:15,384
I don't understand why I don't see them sometimes.

1907
01:38:15,584 --> 01:38:16,584
I see them now.

1908
01:38:16,784 --> 01:38:18,424
I don't know why I don't see them.

1909
01:38:18,624 --> 01:38:20,424
I don't know why I don't see them.

1910
01:38:20,424 --> 01:38:22,424
I don't know why I don't see them sometimes.

1911
01:38:22,624 --> 01:38:23,224
OK, I see them now.

1912
01:38:23,424 --> 01:38:25,144
Rekt to Djinn.

1913
01:38:25,464 --> 01:38:26,344
I can't see him.

1914
01:38:26,544 --> 01:38:29,344
OK, we'll give him 20 seconds to.

1915
01:38:29,544 --> 01:38:31,664
Resynchronize.

1916
01:38:40,464 --> 01:38:41,744
Hey, can you guys hear me?

1917
01:38:41,944 --> 01:38:42,784
Yes. Hello.

1918
01:38:42,984 --> 01:38:44,064
Welcome.

1919
01:38:44,264 --> 01:38:46,504
Hi, Paul, thanks for having me on.

1920
01:38:46,704 --> 01:38:49,344
I know you addressed the Solana coin briefly earlier.

1921
01:38:49,544 --> 01:38:51,904
It sounded like you're still working out the details.

1922
01:38:52,104 --> 01:38:54,344
So I don't want to harp on it too much.

1923
01:38:54,544 --> 01:38:56,304
But there are about like a thousand of us

1924
01:38:56,304 --> 01:38:58,184
in the community quite interested in this.

1925
01:38:58,384 --> 01:39:00,012
And it's been like fun coming up.

1926
01:39:00,012 --> 01:39:02,657
But theories.

1927
01:39:02,657 --> 01:39:05,302
I actually made a post yesterday about how the meme coin holders might

1928
01:39:05,302 --> 01:39:07,947
be able to claim some of the real coins,

1929
01:39:07,947 --> 01:39:10,592
which I think would be fantastic for like the less connected or less

1930
01:39:10,592 --> 01:39:13,237
technical among us to try to get some kind of exposure to eCash before

1931
01:39:13,237 --> 01:39:15,882
it's even launched,

1932
01:39:15,882 --> 01:39:18,527
as well as being a great marketing opportunity for you among the Solana

1933
01:39:18,527 --> 01:39:21,172
community.

1934
01:39:21,172 --> 01:39:24,324
So I love the idea of you potentially following through with that.

1935
01:39:24,324 --> 01:39:27,476
The other thing is that the trading fees being redirected to you,

1936
01:39:27,476 --> 01:39:30,628
you're able to raise like, you know,

1937
01:39:30,628 --> 01:39:33,780
potentially six or seven figures through the meme coin for the project

1938
01:39:33,780 --> 01:39:36,932
without even selling any of it, if it does well, of course.

1939
01:39:36,932 --> 01:39:39,652
So anyway, but just to get to the question,

1940
01:39:39,652 --> 01:39:42,372
without revealing too much of your plans,

1941
01:39:42,372 --> 01:39:45,092
I was wondering if you could just confirm to everyone the correct meme

1942
01:39:45,092 --> 01:39:47,812
coin, since, you know,

1943
01:39:47,812 --> 01:39:50,532
people launch hundreds of these whenever there's a big news event like

1944
01:39:50,532 --> 01:39:53,252
your fork,

1945
01:39:53,252 --> 01:39:55,972
or will you just sort of let it play out and support the biggest one

1946
01:39:55,972 --> 01:39:58,692
that forms organically when the time comes? So, yeah, thanks.

1947
01:39:58,692 --> 01:40:04,882
Yeah, so I don't know how many there are,

1948
01:40:04,882 --> 01:40:11,072
but there was one that that seemed to be more active. So I don't know.

1949
01:40:11,072 --> 01:40:17,262
Let me see if I can, like, look up how to explain where it is.

1950
01:40:17,262 --> 01:40:23,452
I think it was like, I think this is what is it, the CTXQG or something?

1951
01:40:23,452 --> 01:40:26,705
Yeah, that's the one. I think that's the one, like,

1952
01:40:26,705 --> 01:40:29,959
most people are interested in right now. Well, at least that's the one,

1953
01:40:29,959 --> 01:40:33,212
you know, you join the community, I think.

1954
01:40:53,452 --> 01:40:56,314
But I do think that it I think it is a good idea.

1955
01:40:56,314 --> 01:40:59,176
And I think it's a great like, the like,

1956
01:40:59,176 --> 01:41:02,039
the pump.fun thing is clearly very popular with people.

1957
01:41:02,039 --> 01:41:04,901
And I think it is, it would be like a fun way to like,

1958
01:41:04,901 --> 01:41:07,763
I mentioned this before, someone had already asked,

1959
01:41:07,763 --> 01:41:10,625
I don't know if you were here, like, about an hour ago.

1960
01:41:10,625 --> 01:41:13,488
And I was talking about, like,

1961
01:41:13,488 --> 01:41:16,350
we could have something where like the top holders of the meme coin get

1962
01:41:16,350 --> 01:41:19,212
the actual eCash coin.

1963
01:41:19,212 --> 01:41:22,762
I kind of want to like, what I would prefer to do is like,

1964
01:41:22,762 --> 01:41:26,312
sit down and think about it carefully and then design something and then

1965
01:41:26,312 --> 01:41:29,862
make like a targeted, complete, like written announcement.

1966
01:41:29,862 --> 01:41:33,412
So that it's not as like, I don't know,

1967
01:41:33,412 --> 01:41:36,962
so that I have plenty of time to get it all right in the way that I want

1968
01:41:36,962 --> 01:41:40,512
it. But yeah,

1969
01:41:40,512 --> 01:41:44,062
that's basically I can confirm that that's something that has been on my

1970
01:41:44,062 --> 01:41:47,612
mind.

1971
01:41:47,612 --> 01:41:49,959
And I think there's, it would be a good idea.

1972
01:41:49,959 --> 01:41:52,305
And I'm pretty sure that we will be doing it.

1973
01:41:52,305 --> 01:41:54,652
So just have to work out the detail.

1974
01:41:55,652 --> 01:41:58,352
Yeah, awesome. No, that sounds great. I mean,

1975
01:41:58,352 --> 01:42:01,052
I'm not trying to get you to like commit to anything on the fly on the

1976
01:42:01,052 --> 01:42:03,752
space, or whatever. Obviously,

1977
01:42:03,752 --> 01:42:06,452
you'll have to flesh it out and then make an announcement.

1978
01:42:06,452 --> 01:42:09,152
But I do think it's like really interesting,

1979
01:42:09,152 --> 01:42:11,852
just the opportunity to like onboard so many people, because, you know,

1980
01:42:11,852 --> 01:42:14,552
like the people are actually using crypto day to day,

1981
01:42:14,552 --> 01:42:17,252
like are on Solana, you know, there's 1000s, 10s of 1000s,

1982
01:42:17,252 --> 01:42:19,952
hundreds of 1000s of people just trading on Solana,

1983
01:42:19,952 --> 01:42:22,652
gambling on meme coins.

1984
01:42:22,652 --> 01:42:26,795
There's a lot of culture and a lot of communities there.

1985
01:42:26,795 --> 01:42:30,938
So if you can sort of tap into that in a way, and, you know,

1986
01:42:30,938 --> 01:42:35,081
offer something interesting to those people,

1987
01:42:35,081 --> 01:42:39,223
then you could potentially be onboarding 1000s of people to eCash,

1988
01:42:39,223 --> 01:42:43,366
ready to go, you know, before you even launch your fork. And it's all,

1989
01:42:43,366 --> 01:42:47,509
it seems to be the most sort of active people in crypto are on Solana

1990
01:42:47,509 --> 01:42:51,652
right now. So yeah, that's why I thought that was interesting.

1991
01:42:53,652 --> 01:42:56,485
Yeah, I completely agree. I think that Bitcoin has said like,

1992
01:42:56,485 --> 01:42:59,319
we've evolved like a kind of contempt for the user,

1993
01:42:59,319 --> 01:43:02,152
which I think is tragic. And now we have sour grapes about it, too.

1994
01:43:02,152 --> 01:43:04,985
We say, oh, we never wanted those users,

1995
01:43:04,985 --> 01:43:07,819
or those users are bad people or something. But really,

1996
01:43:07,819 --> 01:43:10,652
all this stuff started on BTC.

1997
01:43:10,652 --> 01:43:14,081
There was all kinds of wacky stuff, you know,

1998
01:43:14,081 --> 01:43:17,509
like Tether was originally Omni was on BTC,

1999
01:43:17,509 --> 01:43:20,938
and that was originally MasterCoin. And so, but now we,

2000
01:43:20,938 --> 01:43:24,366
we pretend like we didn't care about that. But no, we want happy users.

2001
01:43:24,366 --> 01:43:27,795
That is, that is what we want. Okay,

2002
01:43:27,795 --> 01:43:31,223
we got more people now want to come up on stage. We have Sky Doge.

2003
01:43:31,223 --> 01:43:34,652
Hello.

2004
01:43:41,652 --> 01:43:47,902
You are muted. So I can't hear anything yet.

2005
01:43:47,902 --> 01:43:54,152
But we also have we have another

2006
01:43:54,152 --> 01:44:00,402
Paul here. Okay, it was Danny.

2007
01:44:00,402 --> 01:44:06,652
So I suppose we could go.

2008
01:44:07,652 --> 01:44:10,652
Oh, hey, yes. This is the other Paul. How are you, Paul?

2009
01:44:10,652 --> 01:44:11,652
I'm great.

2010
01:44:12,652 --> 01:44:17,652
Okay, so full disclosure.

2011
01:44:17,652 --> 01:44:22,652
I think I may have been getting I got a merge into your Truthcoin and

2012
01:44:22,652 --> 01:44:27,652
GitHub repo back in 2014. So I've been following your work for a while,

2013
01:44:27,652 --> 01:44:32,652
Paul.

2014
01:44:32,652 --> 01:44:33,652
Oh, great.

2015
01:44:33,652 --> 01:44:37,319
And yeah, I'm like, I haven't followed you recently.

2016
01:44:37,319 --> 01:44:40,985
But I used to love a lot of what you had to say.

2017
01:44:40,985 --> 01:44:44,652
But I'm kinda and I just joined like 10 minutes ago.

2018
01:44:44,652 --> 01:44:48,319
I'm trying to understand like, are you gonna hard fork Bitcoin?

2019
01:44:48,319 --> 01:44:51,985
Like what's going on? I've, I'm out of the loop.

2020
01:44:51,985 --> 01:44:55,652
So I'm trying to understand.

2021
01:44:55,652 --> 01:45:00,902
I guess in the nest, so to speak, but I have a pinned.

2022
01:45:00,902 --> 01:45:06,152
Let me try to get it. I'm not gonna try to add tweets to this. But yeah,

2023
01:45:06,152 --> 01:45:11,402
I have a cash calm and it's me and a kind of a large group of people.

2024
01:45:11,402 --> 01:45:16,652
And it will be in late August this year or scheduled for late August.

2025
01:45:17,652 --> 01:45:21,152
Okay, and I have to ask, like, what's the reasoning? I mean,

2026
01:45:21,152 --> 01:45:24,652
I know for a little while and correct me if I'm wrong.

2027
01:45:24,652 --> 01:45:28,152
I have a lot of but I'm going to publish a huge article.

2028
01:45:28,152 --> 01:45:31,652
There's a lot of right. Okay, but but yeah, please continue.

2029
01:45:32,652 --> 01:45:36,902
Yeah, I mean, I know for a while,

2030
01:45:36,902 --> 01:45:41,152
like you were trying to get some of the like,

2031
01:45:41,152 --> 01:45:45,402
originally Truthcoin and then was it Hivemind stuff like kind of

2032
01:45:45,402 --> 01:45:49,652
picked up and like, get interest behind that.

2033
01:45:49,652 --> 01:45:53,319
And then some other work I was following of yours, I was interested in.

2034
01:45:53,319 --> 01:45:56,985
But I guess,

2035
01:45:56,985 --> 01:46:00,652
did you get kind of fed up with not having your ideas taken seriously

2036
01:46:00,652 --> 01:46:04,319
enough? Or I'm not trying to put words into your mouth.

2037
01:46:04,319 --> 01:46:07,985
I'm trying to understand, like, the reason for a hard fork,

2038
01:46:07,985 --> 01:46:11,652
because generally a hard fork isn't the Bitcoin way, you know? So, yeah.

2039
01:46:12,652 --> 01:46:15,985
Right. So, okay, well,

2040
01:46:15,985 --> 01:46:19,319
it'll take a little while to explain because the answer involves

2041
01:46:19,319 --> 01:46:22,652
basically everything. But basically, we,

2042
01:46:22,652 --> 01:46:25,985
I really think that Bitcoin has a lot of problems right now.

2043
01:46:25,985 --> 01:46:29,319
And the root cause of these problems is a lack of competition.

2044
01:46:29,319 --> 01:46:32,652
And we have grown very complacent.

2045
01:46:33,652 --> 01:46:37,652
So, we have a lot of like irrational beliefs in the community. And,

2046
01:46:37,652 --> 01:46:41,652
you know, the wrong people get attention.

2047
01:46:41,652 --> 01:46:45,652
And the wrong projects get attention,

2048
01:46:45,652 --> 01:46:49,652
of which BIP300 Drivechain is just a tiny symptom.

2049
01:46:49,652 --> 01:46:53,652
But I think it's a big symptom, you know, in a way that I was like,

2050
01:46:53,652 --> 01:46:57,652
pushing prediction markets on BTC, that was like in 2013, 2014.

2051
01:46:57,652 --> 01:47:01,652
And then now they're like getting super big. But it was like, okay,

2052
01:47:01,652 --> 01:47:05,652
this could have been all this could have been on BTC the whole time.

2053
01:47:06,652 --> 01:47:10,319
Okay, a little bit of pushback, if you're cool with it, Paul. I mean,

2054
01:47:10,319 --> 01:47:13,985
you mentioned that there's not competition. Like, can you clarify that?

2055
01:47:13,985 --> 01:47:17,652
Because...

2056
01:47:22,652 --> 01:47:23,652
What's that?

2057
01:47:24,652 --> 01:47:30,652
That's Guy Dozier's microphone as feedback or something. I don't know.

2058
01:47:32,652 --> 01:47:35,985
Anyway, I've muted him for now. So I think the... Okay,

2059
01:47:35,985 --> 01:47:39,319
so when I say we don't have competition, like, there's no fear,

2060
01:47:39,319 --> 01:47:42,652
like people just talk about...

2061
01:47:43,652 --> 01:47:46,985
They'll just like say, like, Bitcoin is perfect.

2062
01:47:46,985 --> 01:47:50,319
Bitcoin can't be improved. Bitcoin is like immortal. You know,

2063
01:47:50,319 --> 01:47:53,652
these are like the ideas that take precedence in our community.

2064
01:47:53,652 --> 01:47:56,985
And we don't like, we don't,

2065
01:47:56,985 --> 01:48:00,319
we're not like rushing as fast as we can to like improve the user

2066
01:48:00,319 --> 01:48:03,652
experience or try to make things...

2067
01:48:04,652 --> 01:48:08,985
Well, can I push back once more? I mean, improve the user experience.

2068
01:48:08,985 --> 01:48:13,319
So for me, as someone who, by the way,

2069
01:48:13,319 --> 01:48:17,652
I totally consider myself a Bitcoin maxi, like as hardcore as they come.

2070
01:48:18,652 --> 01:48:22,485
To me,

2071
01:48:22,485 --> 01:48:26,319
the Bitcoin user experience that matters most is that it's money where

2072
01:48:26,319 --> 01:48:30,152
the rules can't be fucked with. Right? Like, to me,

2073
01:48:30,152 --> 01:48:33,985
it's important that if I fall into a coma, wake up 50 years from now,

2074
01:48:33,985 --> 01:48:37,819
I'm able to access my Bitcoin wallet, right?

2075
01:48:37,819 --> 01:48:41,652
And still be able to access my money and use it.

2076
01:48:42,652 --> 01:48:46,652
Like, that's the user experience that I care about.

2077
01:48:46,652 --> 01:48:50,652
I care about rules that can't be broken.

2078
01:48:50,652 --> 01:48:54,652
And so everything else cascades from that, right? At least for me.

2079
01:48:54,652 --> 01:48:58,652
And so if user experience is, oh, I can't pay for a coffee,

2080
01:48:58,652 --> 01:49:02,652
like what Roger Ver was talking about during the scaling wars.

2081
01:49:03,652 --> 01:49:06,152
I mean, fuck you. I don't care about you buying coffee.

2082
01:49:06,152 --> 01:49:08,652
I care about me being in a coma and waking up 50 years from now and

2083
01:49:08,652 --> 01:49:11,152
being able to use my money. Right?

2084
01:49:11,152 --> 01:49:13,652
I don't give a shit about your coffee.

2085
01:49:14,652 --> 01:49:18,852
I think the good and bad are a little bit more objective than that,

2086
01:49:18,852 --> 01:49:23,052
though. I don't know why Vlad keeps pumping his fist.

2087
01:49:23,052 --> 01:49:27,252
I'm gonna have to look away from my phone because it's starting to

2088
01:49:27,252 --> 01:49:31,452
become distracting. He's just pumping the fist over and over again.

2089
01:49:31,452 --> 01:49:35,652
I'm gonna have to just turn my phone to the side and not look at it.

2090
01:49:36,652 --> 01:49:40,402
So I agree that the so, okay, people draw a straight line from that.

2091
01:49:40,402 --> 01:49:44,152
I want Bitcoin to survive.

2092
01:49:44,152 --> 01:49:47,902
They want to draw a straight line from that to ossification.

2093
01:49:47,902 --> 01:49:51,652
But that's not the case.

2094
01:49:51,652 --> 01:49:54,985
So let's say you wake up in the future and you say, oh,

2095
01:49:54,985 --> 01:49:58,319
what's important to me is I fall into a coma and I wake up,

2096
01:49:58,319 --> 01:50:01,652
my money is still there.

2097
01:50:01,652 --> 01:50:04,985
But what if you wake up in the future and people have moved away from

2098
01:50:04,985 --> 01:50:08,319
8 billion people use something else. They use Solana.

2099
01:50:08,319 --> 01:50:11,652
And they don't use Bitcoin. Well, now you've lost all of your money.

2100
01:50:12,652 --> 01:50:16,509
So it's another case where with the bitter comes the sweet and with the

2101
01:50:16,509 --> 01:50:20,366
good comes the bad. You have to decide.

2102
01:50:20,366 --> 01:50:24,223
Once you decide something like I want to make it so that Bitcoin

2103
01:50:24,223 --> 01:50:28,081
survives as long as possible and preserves my property rights and keeps

2104
01:50:28,081 --> 01:50:31,938
me with my money. Once you decide that that's the thing that you want,

2105
01:50:31,938 --> 01:50:35,795
you still have all of your work ahead of you because you don't know what

2106
01:50:35,795 --> 01:50:39,652
it will take to make sure that that happens.

2107
01:50:40,652 --> 01:50:43,819
Paul, so I mean just a quick interjection.

2108
01:50:43,819 --> 01:50:46,985
Didn't that kind of get resolved with Ethereum, right?

2109
01:50:46,985 --> 01:50:50,152
Ethereum was trying to literally be the world computer or whatever

2110
01:50:50,152 --> 01:50:53,319
bullshit marketing they came up with and then pivoted from.

2111
01:50:53,319 --> 01:50:56,485
And we saw how that experiment went, right?

2112
01:50:56,485 --> 01:50:59,652
They were trying to promise essentially everything.

2113
01:51:00,652 --> 01:51:03,152
It's just one tiny experiment though among an infinity of possible

2114
01:51:03,152 --> 01:51:05,652
experiments, right?

2115
01:51:06,652 --> 01:51:09,902
True, but they kind of took it to the extreme in the sense of, oh,

2116
01:51:09,902 --> 01:51:13,152
it's fully Turing complete.

2117
01:51:13,152 --> 01:51:16,402
You can essentially do whatever the fuck you want including lose your

2118
01:51:16,402 --> 01:51:19,652
money because it's just dumb.

2119
01:51:20,652 --> 01:51:23,652
I was a huge hater of Ethereum myself.

2120
01:51:23,652 --> 01:51:26,652
I was a hater of every altcoin and most of them went towards zero,

2121
01:51:26,652 --> 01:51:29,652
but Ethereum was a big success.

2122
01:51:29,652 --> 01:51:32,652
So I kind of think if I'm being honest with myself,

2123
01:51:32,652 --> 01:51:35,652
when I look in the mirror,

2124
01:51:35,652 --> 01:51:38,652
I was kind of maybe wrong a little bit about Ethereum.

2125
01:51:39,652 --> 01:51:41,985
I mean,

2126
01:51:41,985 --> 01:51:44,319
I'm obviously butthurt that I didn't make a shitload of money buying

2127
01:51:44,319 --> 01:51:46,652
Ethereum when it was super cheap.

2128
01:51:47,652 --> 01:51:52,452
So if you go to cryptofees.info, Ethereum has more fees.

2129
01:51:52,452 --> 01:51:57,252
There are more people paying to use the transaction fee.

2130
01:51:57,252 --> 01:52:02,052
Total transaction fees paid on Ethereum is higher than BTC.

2131
01:52:02,052 --> 01:52:06,852
So there is some sense in which it has product market fit that BTC does

2132
01:52:06,852 --> 01:52:11,652
not.

2133
01:52:12,652 --> 01:52:16,652
I guess, but I would argue it has product market fit amongst idiots.

2134
01:52:17,652 --> 01:52:20,452
Well, I think we have to decide. I agree,

2135
01:52:20,452 --> 01:52:23,252
but there's a lot of idiots everywhere.

2136
01:52:23,252 --> 01:52:26,052
So I think it's very comforting to just say, I mean,

2137
01:52:26,052 --> 01:52:28,852
we could just go down the line and we could say all these people are

2138
01:52:28,852 --> 01:52:31,652
idiots.

2139
01:52:32,652 --> 01:52:36,652
So we could go say all the darknet markets that switch from being BTC

2140
01:52:36,652 --> 01:52:40,652
only. So like Peter McCormick, his story, I don't know if this is true,

2141
01:52:40,652 --> 01:52:44,652
but his story about how I got into Bitcoin is that his mother was dying

2142
01:52:44,652 --> 01:52:48,652
of cancer and he had to get illegal drugs to help her.

2143
01:52:48,652 --> 01:52:51,852
Now, I don't know if it's true, but it probably is.

2144
01:52:51,852 --> 01:52:55,052
But I also found out about Bitcoin from the Wired Silk Road article.

2145
01:52:55,052 --> 01:52:58,252
And then when, like today,

2146
01:52:58,252 --> 01:53:01,452
that person would be onboarded to Monero because all these things are

2147
01:53:01,452 --> 01:53:04,652
Monero only.

2148
01:53:05,652 --> 01:53:10,319
Now we have stable coins. Those are on Tron and Ethereum. And like,

2149
01:53:10,319 --> 01:53:14,985
you could go, okay, like when people do NFTs and stuff,

2150
01:53:14,985 --> 01:53:19,652
I got invited to this NFT gala.

2151
01:53:20,652 --> 01:53:21,652
Oh God.

2152
01:53:21,652 --> 01:53:25,402
I know, but my friend, it was really silly and I didn't buy anything.

2153
01:53:25,402 --> 01:53:29,152
But my friend was running it and he could get me like a VIP.

2154
01:53:29,152 --> 01:53:32,902
That happened to be in New York City at the time. So he went,

2155
01:53:32,902 --> 01:53:36,652
but all the stuff was in ETH. It was all priced in ETH.

2156
01:53:37,652 --> 01:53:41,252
When Trump does his meme coin, the Trump and Melania meme coin,

2157
01:53:41,252 --> 01:53:44,852
that's on Solana. You know what I mean?

2158
01:53:44,852 --> 01:53:48,452
So we could go down the line and we could just say all these people are

2159
01:53:48,452 --> 01:53:52,052
idiots, which is a very comforting thing to believe. Or we could say,

2160
01:53:52,052 --> 01:53:55,652
you know, maybe, okay, here's another thing to point out.

2161
01:53:55,652 --> 01:53:59,485
All these things, Zcash, David Vorexia project,

2162
01:53:59,485 --> 01:54:03,319
like a storage type project, like a Filecoin project.

2163
01:54:03,319 --> 01:54:07,152
We could go down the line, like many of them, what are some more?

2164
01:54:07,152 --> 01:54:10,985
Many of these projects,

2165
01:54:10,985 --> 01:54:14,819
these started as Bitcoin projects or they were people trying, okay,

2166
01:54:14,819 --> 01:54:18,652
Bitcoin Cash is a perfect example.

2167
01:54:19,652 --> 01:54:22,652
They didn't want to launch their own coin. They tried to do it on BTC.

2168
01:54:22,652 --> 01:54:25,652
They tried so hard. They fought tooth and nail.

2169
01:54:25,652 --> 01:54:29,319
Well, well, well, well. I mean,

2170
01:54:29,319 --> 01:54:32,985
there were the incentives that Bitmain had as well, right?

2171
01:54:32,985 --> 01:54:36,652
With all their covert mining ASIC bullshit.

2172
01:54:36,652 --> 01:54:38,985
Well, the ASICBoost thing,

2173
01:54:38,985 --> 01:54:41,319
I actually think you can prove that it had no effect,

2174
01:54:41,319 --> 01:54:43,652
but this is kind of a side topic.

2175
01:54:43,652 --> 01:54:46,652
Oh, really? Okay, okay. I'll take that.

2176
01:54:46,652 --> 01:54:49,985
The theory is that ASICBoost gave them like some huge edge,

2177
01:54:49,985 --> 01:54:53,319
a secret edge of like 20% or something.

2178
01:54:53,319 --> 01:54:56,652
And then SegWit would interfere with covert ASICBoost.

2179
01:54:56,652 --> 01:54:58,652
That was my understanding.

2180
01:54:59,652 --> 01:55:03,985
Here's the thing. You can look at a plot of Bitcoin hash rate,

2181
01:55:03,985 --> 01:55:08,319
and then you can find the exact date at which SegWit activates,

2182
01:55:08,319 --> 01:55:12,652
which is August 1st, 2017.

2183
01:55:12,652 --> 01:55:16,152
And there should be a huge downward drop at that point as all this

2184
01:55:16,152 --> 01:55:19,652
covert ASICBoost gets shut off.

2185
01:55:19,652 --> 01:55:22,319
But instead, there's basically nothing there.

2186
01:55:22,319 --> 01:55:24,985
So it's just a normal line, I think.

2187
01:55:24,985 --> 01:55:27,652
I don't think there's anything special about that line.

2188
01:55:27,652 --> 01:55:29,652
So, of course, there's a mini confounding variable,

2189
01:55:29,652 --> 01:55:31,652
but I think that kind of basically proves...

2190
01:55:31,652 --> 01:55:34,319
It also requires people to think that all the large blockers were

2191
01:55:34,319 --> 01:55:36,985
insincere when they said they wanted large blocks,

2192
01:55:36,985 --> 01:55:39,652
but I think that's not true.

2193
01:55:39,652 --> 01:55:42,652
No, I mean, I believe Roger Ver was sincere, but I also, like,

2194
01:55:42,652 --> 01:55:45,652
he wasn't technical is the problem.

2195
01:55:45,652 --> 01:55:48,152
He was like Bitcoin Jesus,

2196
01:55:48,152 --> 01:55:50,652
but had no technical understanding whatsoever in mind.

2197
01:55:50,652 --> 01:55:53,402
Well, I agree that he was light on technical skills.

2198
01:55:53,402 --> 01:55:56,152
I think if he knew more about technical skills,

2199
01:55:56,152 --> 01:55:58,902
they might have done the soft fork extension block,

2200
01:55:58,902 --> 01:56:01,652
and then they would have won the scaling war.

2201
01:56:01,652 --> 01:56:04,402
And see, that's the thing. If he had done a soft fork extension block,

2202
01:56:04,402 --> 01:56:07,152
mandatory eight megabyte extension block,

2203
01:56:07,152 --> 01:56:09,902
and then you wake up from a coma,

2204
01:56:09,902 --> 01:56:12,652
you could still access your coins on the old one megabyte block.

2205
01:56:12,652 --> 01:56:15,152
Does that count as preserving the property rights or does that violate

2206
01:56:15,152 --> 01:56:17,652
your rule? This is what I'm trying to say.

2207
01:56:17,652 --> 01:56:20,652
At the end of the day, I think it's just more objective than that.

2208
01:56:20,652 --> 01:56:23,652
There's just good ideas.

2209
01:56:23,652 --> 01:56:26,652
There's ideas that sell and that people want and that people pay.

2210
01:56:26,652 --> 01:56:29,652
You're paying customers for an idea that's good.

2211
01:56:29,652 --> 01:56:32,652
Some ideas are better than others, and some ideas are just bad ideas.

2212
01:56:32,652 --> 01:56:36,652
Okay, okay. I mean, the coma example,

2213
01:56:36,652 --> 01:56:40,652
I use it because it's the simplest way I've found to explain to people

2214
01:56:40,652 --> 01:56:44,652
why backwards compatibility is important.

2215
01:56:45,652 --> 01:56:50,652
And backwards compatibility kind of is an umbrella term that encompasses

2216
01:56:50,652 --> 01:56:55,652
hard forks and why hard forks are bad, right?

2217
01:56:55,652 --> 01:56:58,652
Yeah, I completely agree. In fact, as you may know,

2218
01:56:58,652 --> 01:57:01,652
I wrote the article against the hard fork,

2219
01:57:01,652 --> 01:57:04,652
and I am overall against the hard fork.

2220
01:57:04,652 --> 01:57:08,652
But in this case,

2221
01:57:08,652 --> 01:57:12,652
it's the right tool for the job because the problem is not in the code

2222
01:57:12,652 --> 01:57:16,652
or in the technology. The problem is the community.

2223
01:57:16,652 --> 01:57:21,152
The culture of Bitcoin has been invaded by irrational ideas,

2224
01:57:21,152 --> 01:57:25,652
and these ideas are spreading.

2225
01:57:26,652 --> 01:57:29,652
I don't know. We may already be too late to fix them in BTC,

2226
01:57:29,652 --> 01:57:32,652
but I think the root cause of the bad ideas in BTC is the lack of

2227
01:57:32,652 --> 01:57:35,652
competition.

2228
01:57:35,652 --> 01:57:38,652
I agree with you that Ethereum is a bad idea, and it's so weird,

2229
01:57:38,652 --> 01:57:41,652
and it's so different, and it's doing proof of stake,

2230
01:57:41,652 --> 01:57:44,652
and it's doing blah, blah, blah, everything.

2231
01:57:45,652 --> 01:57:48,152
Actually, it's a bad competitor. It's an unhealthy.

2232
01:57:48,152 --> 01:57:50,652
It's a feeble competitor.

2233
01:57:50,652 --> 01:57:54,652
And so as a result, it does not put pressure on.

2234
01:57:54,652 --> 01:57:58,652
It's like in Pokemon Red when Gary says,

2235
01:57:58,652 --> 01:58:02,652
my rival should be strong to keep me sharp. I remember that.

2236
01:58:02,652 --> 01:58:06,652
And it's like we need a good

2237
01:58:06,652 --> 01:58:10,652
competitor, but we don't have it.

2238
01:58:10,652 --> 01:58:13,652
I think the same thing with Bitcoin Cash. Honestly, it was handled.

2239
01:58:13,652 --> 01:58:16,652
The ideas were bad, and the execution was bad.

2240
01:58:16,652 --> 01:58:19,652
And as a result, there wasn't a lot of there wasn't a big threat.

2241
01:58:19,652 --> 01:58:21,652
It wasn't like BTC met, and they were like, okay,

2242
01:58:21,652 --> 01:58:23,652
we're going to ship lightning in a month.

2243
01:58:23,652 --> 01:58:26,652
We're all going to meet at this hacker house,

2244
01:58:26,652 --> 01:58:29,652
and we're going to just lock ourselves in here with pizza.

2245
01:58:30,652 --> 01:58:35,652
Instead, what happened after BCH split off, we kind of did one Taproot,

2246
01:58:35,652 --> 01:58:40,652
saw a fork, and we've done nothing else.

2247
01:58:40,652 --> 01:58:45,652
And this whole time, we've been basically just coasting, I think.

2248
01:58:45,652 --> 01:58:47,652
And we're waiting for the U.S.

2249
01:58:47,652 --> 01:58:49,652
dollar to commit suicide by bringing up stuff like that.

2250
01:58:49,652 --> 01:58:53,652
Sorry that I kind of distracted

2251
01:58:53,652 --> 01:58:57,652
from what I do want to know why.

2252
01:59:00,000 --> 01:59:05,000
Should one hard fork Bitcoin? Obviously, my bias is towards no.

2253
01:59:05,000 --> 01:59:10,000
But I'm curious, what's the purpose? Which of your many ideas?

2254
01:59:10,000 --> 01:59:15,000
I've always thought you had pretty damn great ideas.

2255
01:59:15,000 --> 01:59:20,000
I'm curious which of them or what incarnation or evolution of them

2256
01:59:20,000 --> 01:59:25,000
you're hard forking for.

2257
01:59:25,000 --> 01:59:28,000
Yeah, I think the merge mined L2s are very important.

2258
01:59:28,000 --> 01:59:31,000
And I don't think that the rival L2s

2259
01:59:31,000 --> 01:59:34,000
I don't think lightning or ARK or Fediment or whatever,

2260
01:59:34,000 --> 01:59:37,000
I don't think these are going to work out.

2261
01:59:37,000 --> 01:59:40,000
And I think the merge mined L2s are very easy to do,

2262
01:59:40,000 --> 01:59:43,000
and they're very effective.

2263
01:59:43,000 --> 01:59:46,833
And they happen to solve a bunch of other meta problems.

2264
01:59:46,833 --> 01:59:50,667
So they themselves represent competition. So if the L1 software sucks,

2265
01:59:50,667 --> 01:59:54,500
and all of the L2 software, all the different softwares,

2266
01:59:54,500 --> 01:59:58,333
if they all suck, then with the merge mined L2s,

2267
01:59:58,333 --> 02:00:02,167
you can just launch another one, and you can get users.

2268
02:00:02,167 --> 02:00:06,000
And this does provide the necessary competition.

2269
02:00:06,000 --> 02:00:09,500
But right now, we're kind of in a weird state where we just won't do

2270
02:00:09,500 --> 02:00:13,000
there's lots of good ideas that we won't do,

2271
02:00:13,000 --> 02:00:16,500
and then there's lots of bad ideas that spread.

2272
02:00:16,500 --> 02:00:20,000
So I'm very concerned that it's like in the past,

2273
02:00:20,000 --> 02:00:23,500
the community was much smaller,

2274
02:00:23,500 --> 02:00:27,000
and you could just walk up to people and start talking to them.

2275
02:00:28,000 --> 02:00:31,000
So we could have scaling Bitcoin, where the big investors,

2276
02:00:31,000 --> 02:00:34,000
big business leaders, everyone fit in a small room,

2277
02:00:34,000 --> 02:00:37,000
like a 200-person room.

2278
02:00:37,000 --> 02:00:39,000
Yeah, I was in those rooms.

2279
02:00:40,000 --> 02:00:44,000
Yeah. And so everyone could talk to each other more. But now,

2280
02:00:44,000 --> 02:00:48,000
it's much harder, and that alters the type of idea that can spread,

2281
02:00:48,000 --> 02:00:52,000
because now an idea has to jump all these hurdles.

2282
02:00:53,000 --> 02:00:57,600
So I used the example of OP_CAT before, where it's a very simple idea.

2283
02:00:57,600 --> 02:01:02,200
It was in the original client for two years. It's 13 lines of code.

2284
02:01:02,200 --> 02:01:06,800
It is helpful to the Stark people and a few other people.

2285
02:01:06,800 --> 02:01:11,400
It's a very basic operation, and it's kind of opt-in, harmless,

2286
02:01:11,400 --> 02:01:16,000
and reversible.

2287
02:01:16,000 --> 02:01:18,667
And yet, we can't do OP_CAT,

2288
02:01:18,667 --> 02:01:21,333
and I think that's because the community is irrational.

2289
02:01:21,333 --> 02:01:24,000
I don't think it has anything to do with OP_CAT.

2290
02:01:46,000 --> 02:01:51,333
There were some solid technical reasons for why OP_CAT superficially

2291
02:01:51,333 --> 02:01:56,667
appears. Like, yeah, why not just re-enable it, right? But then,

2292
02:01:56,667 --> 02:02:02,000
who was it? Maybe it was Polstra? I forget who.

2293
02:02:02,000 --> 02:02:04,500
There was a concern about stack size or something,

2294
02:02:04,500 --> 02:02:07,000
but someone fixed that.

2295
02:02:07,000 --> 02:02:10,000
Really? Okay. I don't know.

2296
02:02:10,000 --> 02:02:12,000
One weird thing that was fixed.

2297
02:02:13,000 --> 02:02:14,000
Okay.

2298
02:02:14,000 --> 02:02:19,500
But here's the issue.

2299
02:02:19,500 --> 02:02:25,000
I think it would be one thing if we made a conscious choice to reject…

2300
02:02:26,000 --> 02:02:29,000
I'm sorry, guys. I'm going to have to go soon,

2301
02:02:29,000 --> 02:02:32,000
but we'll definitely get to Wayne Vaughn, because it's four,

2302
02:02:32,000 --> 02:02:35,000
but I'll go in a few minutes or so.

2303
02:02:35,000 --> 02:02:39,333
But it would be one thing if everyone decided.

2304
02:02:39,333 --> 02:02:43,667
We don't live in a world where everyone knows what OP_CAT is,

2305
02:02:43,667 --> 02:02:48,000
and then they made a conscious decision to reject it because of reasons.

2306
02:02:48,000 --> 02:02:51,333
We just kind of live in a weird bureaucracy where no one takes

2307
02:02:51,333 --> 02:02:54,667
responsibility for the decision, and so people just kind of shrug,

2308
02:02:54,667 --> 02:02:58,000
and if it just kind of dies in committee…

2309
02:02:59,000 --> 02:03:03,500
I don't know, Paul.

2310
02:03:03,500 --> 02:03:08,000
You have to be really deep in the weeds for a discussion like OP_CAT.

2311
02:03:08,000 --> 02:03:12,500
It's not like, oh, let's put it to a democratic vote.

2312
02:03:12,500 --> 02:03:17,000
I don't think that's how Bitcoin would survive.

2313
02:03:17,000 --> 02:03:19,500
Right, but this is the problem. I agree with what I'm saying.

2314
02:03:19,500 --> 02:03:22,000
It's the issue.

2315
02:03:23,000 --> 02:03:27,250
It would be better if we had specialists,

2316
02:03:27,250 --> 02:03:31,500
and then people made decisions,

2317
02:03:31,500 --> 02:03:35,750
and then they took responsibility for those decisions,

2318
02:03:35,750 --> 02:03:40,000
but we instead kind of have the worst of both worlds, I think.

2319
02:03:40,000 --> 02:03:44,000
Anyway, I think we should go to Wayne,

2320
02:03:44,000 --> 02:03:48,000
and then we'll have to wait until next week, but tell all the haters…

2321
02:03:48,000 --> 02:03:51,500
I really wanted to know what you're doing, other than merge mining,

2322
02:03:51,500 --> 02:03:55,000
I guess. Is that the TLDR, or what's the one sentence?

2323
02:03:55,000 --> 02:03:59,000
If you go to eCash.com, there's a section called, like, why do this?

2324
02:03:59,000 --> 02:04:03,000
So there it is for you.

2325
02:04:04,000 --> 02:04:05,000
All right. Thanks, Paul.

2326
02:04:05,000 --> 02:04:06,000
Thank you very much.

2327
02:04:10,000 --> 02:04:11,000
Hey, Paul. How you doing, bud?

2328
02:04:11,000 --> 02:04:13,000
I'm doing good. How are you?

2329
02:04:14,000 --> 02:04:16,500
I'm doing great. Just chilling. I saw you had a space.

2330
02:04:16,500 --> 02:04:19,000
I thought I'd jump in and say hi.

2331
02:04:19,000 --> 02:04:23,500
I didn't hear much more than maybe the past six or seven minutes of the

2332
02:04:23,500 --> 02:04:28,000
conversation, but I thought it would be interesting to kind of, like,

2333
02:04:28,000 --> 02:04:32,500
talk about how we got here,

2334
02:04:32,500 --> 02:04:37,000
because most people have come into Bitcoin in recent years.

2335
02:04:37,000 --> 02:04:41,000
They weren't in it in the early days.

2336
02:04:41,000 --> 02:04:45,000
They weren't around for the 2012 Cambrian explosion of Bitcoin forks,

2337
02:04:45,000 --> 02:04:49,000
and so they're just sort of lacking the proper context.

2338
02:04:49,000 --> 02:04:54,000
You know, from my perspective, a lot of these conversations,

2339
02:04:54,000 --> 02:04:59,000
they go way too deep in the weeds on technical and political issues that

2340
02:04:59,000 --> 02:05:04,000
happened five to ten years after sort of the important seed elements.

2341
02:05:04,000 --> 02:05:08,250
You know, the way I look at it, the way I remember it is that, you know,

2342
02:05:08,250 --> 02:05:12,500
we invented Bitcoin. People started mining Bitcoin.

2343
02:05:12,500 --> 02:05:16,750
Some guys figured out how to mine Bitcoin with GPUs,

2344
02:05:16,750 --> 02:05:21,000
and then everybody figured out that, oh, you can start doing this.

2345
02:05:21,000 --> 02:05:25,000
And that's kind of when I got involved in Bitcoin,

2346
02:05:25,000 --> 02:05:29,000
and I built myself a GPU miner.

2347
02:05:29,000 --> 02:05:33,000
And then the difficulty of mining with Bitcoin with GPUs quickly scaled

2348
02:05:33,000 --> 02:05:37,000
up to the point where it was marginally profitable based on the current

2349
02:05:37,000 --> 02:05:41,000
price of Bitcoin and the current price of electricity.

2350
02:05:41,000 --> 02:05:46,000
And around that time, Charlie Lee invented Litecoin,

2351
02:05:46,000 --> 02:05:51,000
and he basically created a Bitcoin clone with a ten-minute block time

2352
02:05:51,000 --> 02:05:56,000
and the ability to continue to run mining on GPUs.

2353
02:05:56,000 --> 02:05:59,667
And the first explosion of Bitcoin forks,

2354
02:05:59,667 --> 02:06:03,333
that first Cambrian explosion that happened around that time period,

2355
02:06:03,333 --> 02:06:07,000
were people basically doing some iteration of that same thing.

2356
02:06:07,000 --> 02:06:11,333
It was forking Bitcoin, making sure,

2357
02:06:11,333 --> 02:06:15,667
changing the mining algorithm from SHA-256 to script or something else

2358
02:06:15,667 --> 02:06:20,000
that could, in rare cases, that could run on GPUs.

2359
02:06:20,000 --> 02:06:25,000
And we tried every permutation of block size and signature type and all

2360
02:06:25,000 --> 02:06:30,000
sorts of things that you could think of based on the prevailing

2361
02:06:30,000 --> 02:06:35,000
technology of the times. I mean, is that how you remember that era,

2362
02:06:35,000 --> 02:06:40,000
Paul?

2363
02:06:41,000 --> 02:06:45,750
Well, yeah, to some extent, yes. Although, of course,

2364
02:06:45,750 --> 02:06:50,500
many of the variants were sort of very trivial.

2365
02:06:50,500 --> 02:06:55,250
So you had lots of different categories. So Litecoin was just 99.99%,

2366
02:06:55,250 --> 02:07:00,000
the same as Bitcoin, but with faster block time.

2367
02:07:00,000 --> 02:07:03,500
Yeah, you're right. Most of it was trivial.

2368
02:07:03,500 --> 02:07:07,000
Very few of them were substantial changes from regular Bitcoin.

2369
02:07:07,000 --> 02:07:11,500
Many of the ones that were big changes were very bad projects.

2370
02:07:11,500 --> 02:07:16,000
They ended up being unsuccessful, like AuroraCoin, NXT, BitShares,

2371
02:07:16,000 --> 02:07:20,500
stuff like that. So those were most unsuccessful.

2372
02:07:20,500 --> 02:07:25,000
So there were different categories. But yeah, to some extent, yes.

2373
02:07:25,000 --> 02:07:28,250
But in my recollection,

2374
02:07:28,250 --> 02:07:31,500
the big criticism that came up at the time was that, well,

2375
02:07:31,500 --> 02:07:34,750
if everybody can fork Bitcoin and make their own version of Bitcoin,

2376
02:07:34,750 --> 02:07:38,000
then what's the value of Bitcoin?

2377
02:07:38,000 --> 02:07:41,800
And some people started working on that problem,

2378
02:07:41,800 --> 02:07:45,600
and some of them created these meta protocols like Omni on top of

2379
02:07:45,600 --> 02:07:49,400
Bitcoin.

2380
02:07:49,400 --> 02:07:53,200
And Ethereum tried to create one coin that could do everything instead

2381
02:07:53,200 --> 02:07:57,000
of having a specific coin for a specific function.

2382
02:07:57,000 --> 02:08:00,667
And at first, they tried to do it on top of Bitcoin.

2383
02:08:00,667 --> 02:08:04,333
I'm sort of shortcutting a lot of this for the sake of brevity.

2384
02:08:04,333 --> 02:08:08,000
But they decided eventually to launch their own coin separately.

2385
02:08:08,000 --> 02:08:11,667
And around that same point in time, there were many factions that were

2386
02:08:11,667 --> 02:08:15,333
people try to make it sound like the early days of Bitcoin were all

2387
02:08:15,333 --> 02:08:19,000
kumbaya.

2388
02:08:19,000 --> 02:08:24,000
No, it was deeply political. There were many, many political factions,

2389
02:08:24,000 --> 02:08:29,000
two of the largest being the folks that sort of centered around the MIT

2390
02:08:29,000 --> 02:08:34,000
up in Boston and the folks that eventually founded Blockstream.

2391
02:08:34,000 --> 02:08:37,000
Both good people. I don't have any

2392
02:08:37,000 --> 02:08:40,000
I know everybody on both sides of that.

2393
02:08:40,000 --> 02:08:43,000
But one of the major things that they were trying to do was saying, hey,

2394
02:08:43,000 --> 02:08:46,000
you know what?

2395
02:08:46,000 --> 02:08:49,000
Ethereum doesn't need to be a separate chain to do everything,

2396
02:08:49,000 --> 02:08:52,000
and turning complete scripts that are loaded into the chain is kind of a

2397
02:08:52,000 --> 02:08:55,000
dumb fundamental design.

2398
02:08:56,000 --> 02:08:59,600
But we have this design to do something different called a sidechain.

2399
02:08:59,600 --> 02:09:03,200
And what the sidechain allows you to do is

2400
02:09:03,200 --> 02:09:06,800
and I'm speaking loosely here for the sake of conversation

2401
02:09:06,800 --> 02:09:10,400
is to design a specialized version of Bitcoin that preserves the

2402
02:09:10,400 --> 02:09:14,000
scarcity of the Bitcoin.

2403
02:09:14,000 --> 02:09:17,500
So instead of launching a new chain that has bajillions numbers of coins

2404
02:09:17,500 --> 02:09:21,000
and saying, hey,

2405
02:09:21,000 --> 02:09:24,500
we can have diversity of behaviors that are derivative from the core

2406
02:09:24,500 --> 02:09:28,000
Bitcoin chain without creating a bunch of new coins.

2407
02:09:28,000 --> 02:09:31,400
And that sidechain project from Blockstream didn't end up how they

2408
02:09:31,400 --> 02:09:34,800
originally anticipated. To be polite about it,

2409
02:09:34,800 --> 02:09:38,200
it kind of was a bit of a failure,

2410
02:09:38,200 --> 02:09:41,600
although they did salvage some technology out of it and develop it into

2411
02:09:41,600 --> 02:09:45,000
a certain direction.

2412
02:09:45,000 --> 02:09:49,250
But pretty much from that point in time,

2413
02:09:49,250 --> 02:09:53,500
the idea of actually building something on top of Bitcoin and creating

2414
02:09:53,500 --> 02:09:57,750
new features for Bitcoin was kind of verboten. It was taboo.

2415
02:09:57,750 --> 02:10:02,000
People just didn't want to get it done.

2416
02:10:02,000 --> 02:10:05,500
They wanted to advance cryptographic signatures.

2417
02:10:05,500 --> 02:10:09,000
They wanted to make the chain slightly more efficient.

2418
02:10:09,000 --> 02:10:12,500
They wanted to solve some of the problems like transaction malleability.

2419
02:10:12,500 --> 02:10:16,000
That was a big one.

2420
02:10:17,000 --> 02:10:21,333
But the idea that Bitcoin was going to continue to change really sort of

2421
02:10:21,333 --> 02:10:25,667
died, and there was a I shouldn't say died. It was severely curtailed,

2422
02:10:25,667 --> 02:10:30,000
and all the energy for that went someplace else.

2423
02:10:30,000 --> 02:10:32,833
Now, some people would say, good riddance.

2424
02:10:32,833 --> 02:10:35,667
Get all that shit off of our chain. Bitcoin should be pure,

2425
02:10:35,667 --> 02:10:38,500
and it should only operate one way,

2426
02:10:38,500 --> 02:10:41,333
and that's the only way that it should be from here until eternity with

2427
02:10:41,333 --> 02:10:44,167
the exception of just keeping up with cryptography and the general

2428
02:10:44,167 --> 02:10:47,000
progress of computation.

2429
02:10:47,000 --> 02:10:50,000
And there are other people who said, hey,

2430
02:10:50,000 --> 02:10:53,000
we're going to do these meta protocols.

2431
02:10:53,000 --> 02:10:56,000
We're going to do these other things in this other world,

2432
02:10:56,000 --> 02:10:59,000
and the fact that we can't do them on Bitcoin is really kind of sad.

2433
02:10:59,000 --> 02:11:02,000
And when I look at your project, what you're doing right now,

2434
02:11:02,000 --> 02:11:05,000
I look at it as like, you know what?

2435
02:11:05,000 --> 02:11:08,000
We have an opportunity to go back and try some of those principles

2436
02:11:08,000 --> 02:11:11,000
again.

2437
02:11:11,000 --> 02:11:13,000
We can't get it on the regular Bitcoin chain.

2438
02:11:13,000 --> 02:11:15,000
Maybe some people think that's a good thing.

2439
02:11:15,000 --> 02:11:17,000
Some people think that's a bad thing.

2440
02:11:17,000 --> 02:11:21,500
But an efficient way to do that is let the market decide.

2441
02:11:21,500 --> 02:11:26,000
Split the chain. Go ahead and allow people to have this new technology.

2442
02:11:26,000 --> 02:11:28,333
And if the people who say it's all bullshit are right,

2443
02:11:28,333 --> 02:11:30,667
they're going to be able to sell their coins.

2444
02:11:30,667 --> 02:11:33,000
They're going to be able to from the fork.

2445
02:11:33,000 --> 02:11:36,750
They're going to be able to say, I told you so on X.

2446
02:11:36,750 --> 02:11:40,500
They're going to watch 150,000 projects die,

2447
02:11:40,500 --> 02:11:44,250
and they're going to laugh themselves into oblivion and just be able to

2448
02:11:44,250 --> 02:11:48,000
say, I was right. I told you so. Ha ha ha.

2449
02:11:48,000 --> 02:11:50,667
They'll be the new Peter Schiff's of Bitcoin.

2450
02:11:50,667 --> 02:11:53,333
But maybe they're not completely right.

2451
02:11:53,333 --> 02:11:56,000
Maybe there will be some lasting value.

2452
02:11:56,000 --> 02:12:01,333
Maybe there's room to have a Bitcoin-oriented experiment ground where

2453
02:12:01,333 --> 02:12:06,667
a laboratory, if you will, where people can try different things,

2454
02:12:06,667 --> 02:12:12,000
and maybe some of those things can migrate over towards Bitcoin.

2455
02:12:12,000 --> 02:12:16,500
And that's how I see the value in what you're doing.

2456
02:12:16,500 --> 02:12:21,000
I don't think that there's much risk at this point with Bitcoin weaving

2457
02:12:21,000 --> 02:12:25,500
its way and infiltrating the traditional financial system for people to

2458
02:12:25,500 --> 02:12:30,000
have the same level of concerns of all those old forks for Bitcoin.

2459
02:12:30,000 --> 02:12:34,000
Because there really was a time, call it from 2011 to 2014 perhaps,

2460
02:12:34,000 --> 02:12:38,000
where people were legitimately saying,

2461
02:12:38,000 --> 02:12:42,000
if I can just clone Bitcoin and look at all these Bitcoin forks,

2462
02:12:42,000 --> 02:12:46,000
one of them is going to be the next Bitcoin.

2463
02:12:46,000 --> 02:12:48,333
The first one never works out. Google wasn't the first search engine.

2464
02:12:48,333 --> 02:12:50,667
One of these other things is going to be better,

2465
02:12:50,667 --> 02:12:53,000
and it's going to succeed.

2466
02:12:53,000 --> 02:12:56,000
I don't think that that risk exists nowadays.

2467
02:12:56,000 --> 02:12:59,000
So I think that a lot of people are going to get really worked up about

2468
02:12:59,000 --> 02:13:02,000
what you're trying to do over nothing.

2469
02:13:02,000 --> 02:13:06,000
I think that there's going to be a big controversy online.

2470
02:13:06,000 --> 02:13:10,000
But at the end of the day, I think what you're doing is small,

2471
02:13:10,000 --> 02:13:14,000
has a small chance of success.

2472
02:13:15,000 --> 02:13:18,500
And maybe can even create some things that will have some value to

2473
02:13:18,500 --> 02:13:22,000
Bitcoin because now people who are interested in developing on Bitcoin

2474
02:13:22,000 --> 02:13:25,500
can do it in a way that doesn't have to deal with the politics of the

2475
02:13:25,500 --> 02:13:29,000
Bitcoin development community.

2476
02:13:29,000 --> 02:13:31,333
So anyways,

2477
02:13:31,333 --> 02:13:33,667
that's kind of how I see it without getting into any specific technical

2478
02:13:33,667 --> 02:13:36,000
issues.

2479
02:13:36,000 --> 02:13:39,000
And I feel like people talking about the block size wars and Bitcoin

2480
02:13:39,000 --> 02:13:42,000
politics and everything, it kind of tends to muck it up.

2481
02:13:42,000 --> 02:13:48,000
I really look at it as you trying to implement some very old ideas in a

2482
02:13:48,000 --> 02:13:54,000
way that doesn't hurt Bitcoin.

2483
02:13:54,000 --> 02:13:57,333
In fact, if you had been able to do this back in maybe 2012,

2484
02:13:57,333 --> 02:14:00,667
I think that half of the shit coins that existed would have never

2485
02:14:00,667 --> 02:14:04,000
existed.

2486
02:14:04,000 --> 02:14:08,000
And there might be some innovations and some things that were tried.

2487
02:14:09,000 --> 02:14:14,000
So in a sense, Blockstream has Liquid, which is like their,

2488
02:14:14,000 --> 02:14:19,000
it's not really a fork of Bitcoin, but their Bitcoin derived technology.

2489
02:14:19,000 --> 02:14:22,000
That's their sidechain technology for doing things.

2490
02:14:22,000 --> 02:14:25,000
You're just making something else that's kind of like that.

2491
02:14:25,000 --> 02:14:28,000
Yours happens to be public.

2492
02:14:28,000 --> 02:14:31,000
I don't think that the existence of Liquid threatens Bitcoin.

2493
02:14:31,000 --> 02:14:35,000
I don't think the existence of eCash or Zcash or a handful of other

2494
02:14:35,000 --> 02:14:39,000
things that are related to Bitcoin threaten Bitcoin.

2495
02:14:39,000 --> 02:14:41,000
It's not like crossing the streams and Ghostbusters.

2496
02:14:41,000 --> 02:14:43,000
We're not going to destroy the universe.

2497
02:14:43,000 --> 02:14:45,500
So everybody should just, you know,

2498
02:14:45,500 --> 02:14:48,000
if you like it and you want to mess around with it, use it.

2499
02:14:48,000 --> 02:14:52,000
If you don't, then don't do anything and just go on and live your life.

2500
02:14:53,000 --> 02:14:56,000
OK, yeah, I completely agree. So thanks very much.

2501
02:14:56,000 --> 02:14:59,000
I think that was a great comment.

2502
02:14:59,000 --> 02:15:02,000
And I think it's a good one to end on because I said two to four and now

2503
02:15:02,000 --> 02:15:05,000
it's four sixteen.

2504
02:15:05,000 --> 02:15:08,000
And so but we'll be back next week.

2505
02:15:08,000 --> 02:15:11,000
So thanks to everyone who came up on stage.

2506
02:15:11,000 --> 02:15:15,000
And thanks very much. Join next time.

2507
02:15:15,000 --> 02:15:19,000
And until then. Thank you, guys.

2508
02:15:22,000 --> 02:15:23,000
Thank you.