1 00:00:00,527 --> 00:00:04,727 Hello, and welcome to Drivechain Talk, Twitter Space. 2 00:00:04,727 --> 00:00:12,227 This is May 1st, and we are excited to have another chat about Drivechain today. 3 00:00:12,227 --> 00:00:17,927 I'm Henry at LayerTwo Labs, and everyone in the audience is welcome to come on up 4 00:00:17,927 --> 00:00:23,127 and ask any questions you might have about Drivechain, 5 00:00:23,127 --> 00:00:29,427 chat about the prospect of sidechains revolutionizing Bitcoin development 6 00:00:29,427 --> 00:00:34,626 and strengthening Bitcoin's potential for value accrual 7 00:00:34,626 --> 00:00:41,227 and blocks-based value accrual in the future. 8 00:00:41,227 --> 00:00:45,927 Drivechain is an idea whose time has come. 9 00:00:45,927 --> 00:00:49,227 Eight years into the development of this project, 10 00:00:49,227 --> 00:00:53,727 we are now at a moment where there's a lot of attention on it. 11 00:00:53,727 --> 00:01:00,826 We have prominent support from such Bitcoin thought leaders as Adam Back and Fiatjaf, 12 00:01:00,826 --> 00:01:09,726 Mike Tidwell, and many others who are Drivechain fans, some of them Drivechain fanatics. 13 00:01:09,726 --> 00:01:15,626 Many people are very excited about how sidechains can fulfill the promise of Bitcoin 14 00:01:15,626 --> 00:01:23,827 to serve as a platform for a variety of technology that is permissionless and peer-to-peer, 15 00:01:23,827 --> 00:01:35,327 such as oracles, large blocks, strong fungibility, DNS, and other technology. 16 00:01:35,327 --> 00:01:41,927 All of those technologies can be built on Bitcoin instead of built on altcoins. 17 00:01:41,927 --> 00:01:46,527 Right now, Bitcoin doesn't offer those technologies in a peer-to-peer format, 18 00:01:46,527 --> 00:01:58,827 but with Drivechain, those technologies would be available in a peer-to-peer format. 19 00:01:58,827 --> 00:02:06,327 Right now, Drivechain is existing as a testnet and existing as a movement 20 00:02:06,427 --> 00:02:17,027 which has a Bitcoin improvement proposal, two of them, in fact, ready for consideration by the community. 21 00:02:17,027 --> 00:02:24,527 An effort is underway with an expert in the community to rebase both of the BIPs, 22 00:02:24,527 --> 00:02:34,226 bringing them up to readiness, full readiness for consideration by the community in terms of merging them into the code. 23 00:02:34,226 --> 00:02:39,027 It's a very exciting time to be interested in Drivechain. 24 00:02:39,027 --> 00:02:43,926 Sidechains have been contemplated by Bitcoin thinkers for quite a while. 25 00:02:43,926 --> 00:02:51,226 There is an excellent paper by Blockstream in 2014 on sidechains, 26 00:02:51,226 --> 00:02:59,527 and then they also have another excellent paper a few years later about Liquid specifically. 27 00:02:59,527 --> 00:03:07,726 Sidechains have their roots, I would say, in the 2010 writings of Satoshi 28 00:03:07,726 --> 00:03:12,926 when he thought about merged-mined altcoins, which, of course, aren't sidechains but altcoins. 29 00:03:12,926 --> 00:03:23,827 He thought about BitDNS serving as a DNS on blockchain, merged-mined with Bitcoin. 30 00:03:23,926 --> 00:03:35,627 So at the very beginnings of Bitcoin, back in 2010, Satoshi himself contemplated the possibility of a multitude of blockchains built on Bitcoin. 31 00:03:35,627 --> 00:03:41,027 And, of course, a merged-mined altcoin isn't as exciting as a merged-mined sidechain 32 00:03:41,027 --> 00:03:46,827 because the sidechain accrues value to Bitcoin mainchain, 33 00:03:46,827 --> 00:03:53,027 whereas the merged-mined altcoin merely accrues value to Bitcoin's block space. 34 00:03:53,027 --> 00:03:55,527 There are two goods in the Bitcoin network, 35 00:03:55,527 --> 00:03:59,726 and the goal of sidechains, specifically of the Drivechain variety, 36 00:03:59,726 --> 00:04:09,027 is to boost the value of not only the Bitcoin block space but also the Bitcoin token. 37 00:04:09,027 --> 00:04:13,327 What we want is for all of the value accrued on the sidechain, 38 00:04:13,327 --> 00:04:17,027 all of the value proposition and network effect of the sidechain, 39 00:04:17,027 --> 00:04:23,326 to be harmonious and symbiotic with the economics of the mainchain, 40 00:04:23,326 --> 00:04:32,027 such that each of these Bitcoin sidechains is a force for good in terms of bringing more people to Bitcoin, 41 00:04:32,027 --> 00:04:41,826 bringing more value to Bitcoin. 42 00:04:41,826 --> 00:04:51,826 If anyone in the audience would like to come on up and raise their hand and ask a question, you're welcome to. 43 00:04:51,826 --> 00:05:01,826 Feel free to join the stage and share your question if you'd like. 44 00:05:01,826 --> 00:05:09,826 In the meantime, let's put up some food for thought in the nest. 45 00:05:09,826 --> 00:05:19,826 Let's get some interesting tweets up in the nest for conversation. 46 00:05:19,826 --> 00:05:22,826 The first thing in the nest is the badge. 47 00:05:22,826 --> 00:05:50,826 The badge of Drivechain. There it is, PIP-303-01. 48 00:05:50,826 --> 00:05:55,826 All right. 49 00:05:55,826 --> 00:06:00,826 Everyone's welcome to come on up to the stage and ask a question. Don't be shy. 50 00:06:00,826 --> 00:06:10,826 If you're in the audience and you have a question, you can, in your app, select to raise your hand. 51 00:06:10,826 --> 00:06:20,826 And then you can join the stage and ask your question. 52 00:06:40,826 --> 00:06:48,826 Welcome. Welcome, everyone, to the audience. 53 00:06:48,826 --> 00:07:00,826 Please do feel free to raise your hand and come on up to the stage if you'd like to discuss Drivechain. 54 00:07:01,826 --> 00:07:10,826 It would be great to have anyone come on up and ask a question or share a comment about it. 55 00:07:10,826 --> 00:07:20,826 So feel free to raise your hand and come on up to the stage to chat about BIP300 and BIP301. 56 00:07:40,826 --> 00:07:50,826 Thank you. 57 00:08:10,826 --> 00:08:20,826 Thank you. 58 00:08:40,826 --> 00:08:50,826 Thank you. 59 00:08:50,826 --> 00:08:53,826 So who has a question or comment about Drivechain? 60 00:08:53,826 --> 00:08:59,826 Don't be shy. Come on up and let's chat about it. 61 00:08:59,826 --> 00:09:02,826 Drivechain is a very powerful idea. 62 00:09:02,826 --> 00:09:07,826 What it would do is provide strengthened facilities for Bitcoin sidechains. 63 00:09:07,826 --> 00:09:10,826 Right now, every Bitcoin sidechain is federated. 64 00:09:10,826 --> 00:09:19,826 A federated sidechain involves control of the Bitcoin held in the sidechain by a group of people, 15 people. 65 00:09:19,826 --> 00:09:29,826 Whereas in a Drivechain format, it's the miners who participate in the security model of that Bitcoin held in a hash rate escrow. 66 00:09:29,826 --> 00:09:37,826 So instead of a federated sidechain being the only format for sidechains, if Drivechain is adopted, then we have a new model available. 67 00:09:37,826 --> 00:09:40,826 And it's opt-in. No one has to use it. 68 00:09:40,826 --> 00:09:42,826 So it's all optional. 69 00:09:42,826 --> 00:09:49,826 But if it's introduced, then I think a lot of people will use it and it'll help Bitcoin grow enormously. 70 00:09:59,826 --> 00:10:09,826 Thank you. 71 00:10:29,826 --> 00:10:39,826 Thank you. 72 00:10:59,826 --> 00:11:09,826 Thank you. 73 00:11:29,826 --> 00:11:39,826 Thank you. 74 00:11:59,826 --> 00:12:09,826 Thank you. 75 00:12:29,826 --> 00:12:39,826 Thank you. 76 00:12:59,826 --> 00:13:09,826 Thank you. 77 00:13:29,826 --> 00:13:39,826 Thank you. 78 00:13:59,826 --> 00:14:09,826 Thank you. 79 00:14:29,826 --> 00:14:39,826 Thank you. 80 00:14:59,826 --> 00:15:09,826 Thank you. 81 00:15:29,826 --> 00:15:39,826 Thank you. 82 00:15:59,826 --> 00:16:09,826 Thank you. 83 00:16:29,826 --> 00:16:39,826 Thank you. 84 00:17:37,851 --> 00:17:39,851 Thank you. 85 00:18:08,851 --> 00:18:09,851 Thank you. 86 00:18:09,851 --> 00:18:10,851 Thank you. 87 00:24:24,331 --> 00:24:29,371 Hello, and welcome to Drivechain Duh. 88 00:30:21,791 --> 00:30:24,691 Welcome, everyone, to Drivechain Twitter Spaces. 89 00:30:26,191 --> 00:30:29,551 If you have a question or comment or want to chat, come on up. 90 00:32:48,451 --> 00:32:51,251 Usually we have a larger crowd today, it's pretty quiet. 91 00:32:52,671 --> 00:32:58,371 If anyone has any questions about Drivechain or would like to come up and chat, do. 92 00:32:58,391 --> 00:33:00,031 Hello, MoonSettler. 93 00:33:03,271 --> 00:33:08,851 Come on up if you'd like to chat about our favorite 94 00:33:08,851 --> 00:33:09,371 topic. 95 00:34:16,711 --> 00:34:19,491 Welcome, Raybon. Go for it. 96 00:34:21,491 --> 00:34:22,451 What should I go for? 97 00:34:24,931 --> 00:34:30,891 You could share a comment or question about Drivechain if you'd like. 98 00:34:35,976 --> 00:34:39,896 I don't know enough about it, honestly. 99 00:34:41,896 --> 00:34:42,256 That's alright. 100 00:34:43,556 --> 00:34:49,476 Not a people do, even though it's been talked about within Bitcoin's 101 00:34:49,476 --> 00:34:50,836 community for about 8 years, 102 00:34:51,460 --> 00:34:54,140 only recently has it gotten more attention. 103 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,600 Are you familiar with idea of sidechains or merged mining? 104 00:35:00,940 --> 00:35:06,700 Yeah, I'm a current participant and so is it anything similar to like the way 105 00:35:06,700 --> 00:35:10,120 a full payout per share pool works? 106 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:11,265 a nice 107 00:35:11,565 --> 00:35:13,765 or LinCoin, it something like that? 108 00:35:16,625 --> 00:35:20,785 I would have to just look those up for a minute, but NiceHash is where you rent 109 00:35:20,785 --> 00:35:24,185 hashing, correct? From like a centralized company? 110 00:35:24,425 --> 00:35:25,665 Yeah, it's like a marketplace, totally. 111 00:35:26,905 --> 00:35:31,070 So I think this wouldn't be that, because that's 112 00:35:33,790 --> 00:35:39,570 Drivechain is a proposal for a soft fork that would introduce a new 113 00:35:39,570 --> 00:35:41,450 option for the way things can be done. 114 00:35:41,570 --> 00:35:47,090 currently, NiceHash is up and running and is centralized, whereas Drivechain is an 115 00:35:47,090 --> 00:35:50,870 effort to make sidechains of Bitcoin not federated. 116 00:35:51,314 --> 00:35:54,914 So currently, I'm sure you've heard of like Liquid and RSK. 117 00:35:55,254 --> 00:35:59,014 Those are the two largest sidechains on Bitcoin. 118 00:35:59,614 --> 00:36:01,174 They're not that large right now. 119 00:36:01,254 --> 00:36:06,274 They're like 50 or 70 million dollars each in terms of like the market cap of the 120 00:36:06,274 --> 00:36:08,434 Bitcoin that's been sent to those sidechains. 121 00:36:08,654 --> 00:36:10,354 What is the name of that one you just mentioned? 122 00:36:14,179 --> 00:36:18,299 The other one's called Rootstock. 123 00:36:18,919 --> 00:36:20,059 Okay, I've heard of too. 124 00:36:20,319 --> 00:36:23,379 wasn't sure. Yeah, I mean, they're not that big. 125 00:36:23,759 --> 00:36:29,739 They aren't like billions the way, for example, wrapped Bitcoin is like four 126 00:36:29,739 --> 00:36:30,484 billion dollars 127 00:36:30,764 --> 00:36:35,244 value. People have often heard of wrapped Bitcoin, but Liquid, which is by Blockstream 128 00:36:35,244 --> 00:36:37,044 and RSK, which is Rootstock, 129 00:36:38,384 --> 00:36:40,964 those two sidechains are not that big. 130 00:36:41,904 --> 00:36:47,624 So Drivechain is an idea which might make sidechains much bigger on 131 00:36:47,624 --> 00:36:50,289 Bitcoin. So it's possible that 132 00:36:50,449 --> 00:36:55,929 if the Drivechain BIPs are adopted, like the, know, SegWit was adopted in 2017, 133 00:36:56,789 --> 00:37:01,749 Taproot was adopted in 2021, Drivechain is an idea which could be adopted 134 00:37:01,749 --> 00:37:06,429 in like 2024, for example, hypothetically. 135 00:37:06,429 --> 00:37:10,093 And if it were, then we might 136 00:37:10,173 --> 00:37:16,153 start to see a lot more value in these Bitcoin 137 00:37:16,153 --> 00:37:22,153 sidechains. instead of Liquid and RSK being rather small, Liquid and RSK and other 138 00:37:22,153 --> 00:37:27,093 sidechains might grow much larger because the Drivechain architecture 139 00:37:27,093 --> 00:37:29,773 is designed 140 00:37:29,898 --> 00:37:35,558 to sidechains, to make sidechains more peer -to -peer rather than federated. 141 00:37:35,918 --> 00:37:38,898 Currently, every Bitcoin sidechain uses a federation. 142 00:37:39,998 --> 00:37:41,438 And Drivechain is different. 143 00:37:41,798 --> 00:37:44,978 is, to quote Adam back, more peer -to -peer. 144 00:37:44,978 --> 00:37:49,238 It's an approach to side change that's more peer -to -peer because 145 00:37:49,703 --> 00:37:55,363 instead of a 15 -person multi -sig controlling Bitcoin, that has been sent to the 146 00:37:55,363 --> 00:37:55,883 sidechain. 147 00:37:57,163 --> 00:38:03,163 Drivechain uses something called Hashrate escrow which is BIP300 and the 148 00:38:03,163 --> 00:38:05,183 miners play an important role in that. 149 00:38:06,523 --> 00:38:09,507 The goal here is to make sidechains more 150 00:38:09,527 --> 00:38:13,827 like Bitcoin and that they're peer -to -peer rather than having a trusted third party, 151 00:38:13,827 --> 00:38:19,747 which is how we could describe the federations that currently control the Bitcoin 152 00:38:19,747 --> 00:38:21,727 in various sidechains today. 153 00:38:23,027 --> 00:38:26,787 So the places that people can learn more about Drivechain include the Telegram group, 154 00:38:27,287 --> 00:38:28,687 which has 700 members, 155 00:38:30,092 --> 00:38:34,912 drivechain.info website, there's also videos online. 156 00:38:36,392 --> 00:38:41,752 Some of the applications that Drivechain would bring to Bitcoiners include more 157 00:38:41,752 --> 00:38:47,572 privacy, so you could have a sidechain that's focused on very strong privacy, and you 158 00:38:47,572 --> 00:38:49,072 can also have a sidechain focused 159 00:38:52,177 --> 00:38:54,617 Large blocks? Hold on, hold on. 160 00:38:55,037 --> 00:38:55,957 What do you mean by large blocks? 161 00:38:57,017 --> 00:39:02,357 that's exactly the right reaction people sometimes have because people think, wait, 162 00:39:02,697 --> 00:39:05,297 what's the reason to have large blocks anywhere? 163 00:39:08,597 --> 00:39:08,922 Wasn't 164 00:39:08,922 --> 00:39:14,702 think like weren't large blocks something that were, you know, considered and rejected 165 00:39:14,702 --> 00:39:16,042 in Bitcoin's history? 166 00:39:17,622 --> 00:39:21,422 it turns out, and Adam back, you know, tweets about this. 167 00:39:22,522 --> 00:39:27,662 So, not just him, but many other people think that it would be good to have people be 168 00:39:27,662 --> 00:39:28,502 able to opt 169 00:39:28,726 --> 00:39:32,086 in to large blocks purely optional. 170 00:39:32,766 --> 00:39:37,386 So if you want to do a lot of transactions that are maybe smaller value like buying 171 00:39:37,386 --> 00:39:43,206 coffee, then you want to have a fee that's low and lightning 172 00:39:43,206 --> 00:39:48,306 is great for smaller value, higher frequency, low fee 173 00:39:48,531 --> 00:39:53,191 payments, but large blocks is another way of doing it that has a different set of 174 00:39:53,191 --> 00:39:57,171 features and advantages and it would be a good complement to Lightning. 175 00:39:58,731 --> 00:40:03,711 If you wanted to onboard billions of people to Lightning, it would take decades because 176 00:40:03,711 --> 00:40:08,336 there's only so many channel opening transactions that can be done in every 177 00:40:08,456 --> 00:40:14,056 block. every Bitcoin block can only hold so many 178 00:40:14,056 --> 00:40:19,776 transactions. So if you had the whole world onboarded to Lightning, it would take 179 00:40:19,776 --> 00:40:23,516 like 40 years to onboard like 8 billion people. 180 00:40:24,316 --> 00:40:28,076 So if we want to have Bitcoin be used by the 181 00:40:28,140 --> 00:40:33,680 whole world and not have everyone cut in third -party custody at Coinbase, 182 00:40:35,100 --> 00:40:38,940 a lower decentralization. 183 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:39,800 Do you think Cuckbase? 184 00:40:40,700 --> 00:40:42,640 Sorry, Cuckbase? Yeah. 185 00:40:43,500 --> 00:40:47,860 Yeah, so if the goal is to avoid things like Coinbase and embrace peer -to -peer, 186 00:40:48,325 --> 00:40:52,965 then a large block sidechain is exactly one good path to do it. 187 00:40:53,025 --> 00:40:55,105 that's what Adam back recently tweeted. 188 00:40:55,245 --> 00:40:58,585 I'll just find the tweet and share it in a blatant appeal. 189 00:40:58,585 --> 00:41:00,105 Damn, got Adam on your side now, Henry. 190 00:41:00,265 --> 00:41:01,485 That's good. Fuck yeah. 191 00:41:01,825 --> 00:41:06,585 a blatant appeal to authority, I'll just find his tweet and share it. 192 00:41:07,890 --> 00:41:12,070 have to scroll a bit to find it. 193 00:41:14,410 --> 00:41:19,170 as I do that, there are a bunch of, this is like the essence of Drivechain, that there 194 00:41:19,170 --> 00:41:23,810 are a bunch of cool technologies that currently aren't possible to build on Bitcoin in 195 00:41:23,810 --> 00:41:25,010 a peer -to -peer manner. 196 00:41:26,130 --> 00:41:27,510 And Drivechain would 197 00:41:27,555 --> 00:41:32,515 enable those technologies to be built on Bitcoin, specifically on Bitcoin's sidechains, 198 00:41:32,735 --> 00:41:33,835 are completely optional. 199 00:41:34,115 --> 00:41:35,095 No one has to use it. 200 00:41:35,475 --> 00:41:36,115 It's like Lightning. 201 00:41:36,555 --> 00:41:37,815 No one has to use Lightning. 202 00:41:38,355 --> 00:41:40,775 You can just do main chain Bitcoin. 203 00:41:42,775 --> 00:41:47,335 In the far future, Bitcoin is extremely successful, the fees 204 00:41:47,359 --> 00:41:49,399 will be pretty high on MainChain. 205 00:41:50,379 --> 00:41:54,999 People also will want to do applications that are not possible 206 00:41:54,999 --> 00:42:00,699 on example, MainChain has 207 00:42:00,699 --> 00:42:06,239 small blocks. If you wanted to use a large block version of Bitcoin, could use a 208 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:07,079 sidechain that 209 00:42:07,164 --> 00:42:09,124 has that larger block size. 210 00:42:09,244 --> 00:42:13,544 So it would be a clone of Bitcoin, except it has a larger block size, enabling lower 211 00:42:13,544 --> 00:42:17,204 fees, higher throughput, but it's still peer -to -peer. 212 00:42:17,964 --> 00:42:21,684 It's not reliant on some centralized third party. 213 00:42:23,244 --> 00:42:26,644 there would be, if Drivechain's adopted, we'll 214 00:42:27,409 --> 00:42:33,229 is a sidechain for privacy that uses the technology from zcash a sidechain for 215 00:42:33,229 --> 00:42:39,009 smart contracts that uses the technology from ethereum and a sidechain 216 00:42:39,009 --> 00:42:44,489 for large blocks kind of like bitcoin cash or bsv just large block version what is the 217 00:42:44,489 --> 00:42:46,774 tech of ethereum that makes it stand out 218 00:42:46,814 --> 00:42:50,974 to you? when I look at it, just see, like, I don't see a breakthrough. 219 00:42:51,094 --> 00:42:51,974 I don't see a technology. 220 00:42:52,134 --> 00:42:55,574 I just see, like, a company with, like, a product, you know? 221 00:42:56,454 --> 00:43:01,234 Yeah. So some of the technology that might be, 222 00:43:02,454 --> 00:43:06,434 so the question kind of gets to, like, is blockchain for only 223 00:43:06,578 --> 00:43:11,358 payments or are there things beyond payments that can be done on blockchain and should 224 00:43:11,358 --> 00:43:16,978 be done on blockchain that's one way of putting your question and think that 225 00:43:16,978 --> 00:43:22,978 there are applications other than just payments so for example even 226 00:43:22,978 --> 00:43:26,218 payments itself like money on blockchain and people say 227 00:43:26,383 --> 00:43:31,843 Bitcoin not blockchain, know, there's there's even variations within the money category 228 00:43:31,843 --> 00:43:34,783 like more private money or more scalable money. 229 00:43:35,323 --> 00:43:39,163 larger blocks or more privacy, more fungibility, right? 230 00:43:39,903 --> 00:43:44,963 So if you wanted to have on blockchain, a extremely private 231 00:43:44,963 --> 00:43:46,143 way 232 00:43:46,188 --> 00:43:51,468 of sending money around, you would want use the technology from these privacy altcoins. 233 00:43:51,768 --> 00:43:56,408 But the problem with those altcoins is that they have a token that is like money 234 00:43:56,408 --> 00:44:02,188 printing. So the whole goal of Drivechain is to eliminate all of the money 235 00:44:02,188 --> 00:44:05,992 printing of altcoins, but enable Bitcoin 236 00:44:10,552 --> 00:44:11,072 So, 237 00:44:12,652 --> 00:44:18,572 there's a tweet from Adam Back where he said, am an innovation maximalist, but I'm 238 00:44:18,572 --> 00:44:20,412 an altcoin senior age critic. 239 00:44:21,152 --> 00:44:25,572 So, he wants the technology of the altcoins without the money printing, and that's what 240 00:44:25,572 --> 00:44:25,797 Drivechain 241 00:44:25,817 --> 00:44:26,457 Chain is about. 242 00:44:27,177 --> 00:44:32,377 It's that basically, instead of saying that altcoins are all worthless, what we want to 243 00:44:32,377 --> 00:44:35,497 do is bring the technology of the good ones. 244 00:44:35,657 --> 00:44:41,417 There's a few good ones for, as I mentioned, privacy, large blocks, also peer -to 245 00:44:41,417 --> 00:44:44,797 oracles. All of those technologies and DNS, that's 246 00:44:45,602 --> 00:44:48,162 himself talked about back in August 2010. 247 00:44:48,762 --> 00:44:51,902 He wrote in of DNS on blockchain. 248 00:44:53,542 --> 00:44:58,622 the idea that blockchains only for payments is not quite right. 249 00:44:58,722 --> 00:45:03,262 And instead it would be good for Bitcoin to be able to have these peer to peer side 250 00:45:03,262 --> 00:45:05,407 chains that have these interesting and potentially 251 00:45:05,527 --> 00:45:10,327 very valuable technologies, eliminating all of the altcoin money printing. 252 00:45:11,327 --> 00:45:17,087 So actually, Drivechain is an idea which is directly attacking altcoins 253 00:45:17,087 --> 00:45:23,027 in the sense that, like, you're like me and you think it'd be 254 00:45:23,027 --> 00:45:25,211 great just to have Bitcoin's 255 00:45:25,271 --> 00:45:28,291 monetary policy be the monetary policy of the whole world. 256 00:45:29,191 --> 00:45:32,151 If that's what you want to happen, want to see happen. 257 00:45:32,271 --> 00:45:34,511 If you want see that happen, Drivechain. 258 00:45:34,531 --> 00:45:35,331 That's what I want to happen. 259 00:45:35,811 --> 00:45:40,911 Yeah, that's what Drivechain is designed to help make happen because it's all about 260 00:45:40,911 --> 00:45:44,851 eliminating all of the altcoin money printing, but at the same time enabling their 261 00:45:45,016 --> 00:45:47,436 technology to be built on Bitcoin. 262 00:45:47,456 --> 00:45:50,616 Could it embolden them to continue on their own test? 263 00:45:51,136 --> 00:45:54,876 Because they're doing it, the big boss is doing it, like, and I do it too. 264 00:45:56,076 --> 00:46:00,156 I mean, that's just conjecture, but you know what I'm You mean like when they say that 265 00:46:00,156 --> 00:46:04,776 Bitcoin is the big boss and Bitcoin got value, so they want to have their own? 266 00:46:05,221 --> 00:46:05,841 Is that what you meant? 267 00:46:06,801 --> 00:46:11,701 Yeah, if you bring some of these things to Bitcoin, doesn't it sort of validate their 268 00:46:11,701 --> 00:46:12,901 efforts in a way? 269 00:46:13,521 --> 00:46:17,621 Yeah, that's what Jimmy Song said to me in a conversation about a year ago on Twitter 270 00:46:17,621 --> 00:46:23,581 Spaces. He's like, I used to be in favor of Drivechain, but now I'm not because I think 271 00:46:23,581 --> 00:46:24,625 it would validate altcoins. 272 00:46:24,625 --> 00:46:28,145 altcoins. See, I see it the opposite way, do the Drivechain. 273 00:46:28,325 --> 00:46:31,845 See, I was kind of thinking that too, it's a two at double edge. 274 00:46:32,005 --> 00:46:37,105 either emboldens some folks, but for the most part, it would make people just abandon 275 00:46:37,105 --> 00:46:41,205 their shitcoin. I can see why that would happen too. 276 00:46:41,205 --> 00:46:44,430 So I think that if 277 00:46:44,810 --> 00:46:50,330 Bitcoiners were to drop this mantra that there's no good technology outside of Bitcoin 278 00:46:50,330 --> 00:46:55,950 and instead tweak their their view with to have the drivechain view which is that 279 00:46:55,950 --> 00:47:01,090 right now altcoins some of them have good technology but we want to we want to 280 00:47:01,090 --> 00:47:03,790 eliminate the monetary policy of those altcoins. 281 00:47:04,475 --> 00:47:06,895 Let's take a look at Bitcoin. 282 00:47:06,895 --> 00:47:12,075 to zero and have Bitcoin be the only token that's a monetary token. 283 00:47:13,175 --> 00:47:18,255 In order to do that we have to enable Bitcoin to have a narrative which is that 284 00:47:18,255 --> 00:47:22,675 everything you want to build on blockchain you can build on Bitcoin and right now that 285 00:47:22,675 --> 00:47:23,955 narrative doesn't exist 286 00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:29,900 because if you want to build on Bitcoin smart contracts, privacy technology 287 00:47:29,900 --> 00:47:34,780 of the kind that Monero or Zcash has or large blocks 288 00:47:34,780 --> 00:47:40,440 or DNS if you want to build those applications on 289 00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,700 Bitcoin the only way to do it is a federated 290 00:47:43,844 --> 00:47:46,284 sidechain like Liquid or RSK. 291 00:47:47,144 --> 00:47:50,464 All of the sidechains right now on Bitcoin are federated, 100 % of them. 292 00:47:50,664 --> 00:47:51,764 There's no way around it. 293 00:47:52,064 --> 00:47:56,664 Drivechain aims to fix that, to make these sidechains more peer -to -peer. 294 00:47:57,584 --> 00:48:01,504 And therefore, the sidechains would potentially, and I can't promise it will happen, 295 00:48:01,824 --> 00:48:03,649 but potentially have a 296 00:48:03,829 --> 00:48:09,749 narrative, which is that they're more or less trustless and they're reliable. 297 00:48:10,629 --> 00:48:14,329 And we could see these drivechains over the course of years grow into the billions of 298 00:48:14,329 --> 00:48:15,129 dollars of value. 299 00:48:15,929 --> 00:48:21,369 And what's critical there is that all of that value is going to increase Bitcoin's 300 00:48:21,369 --> 00:48:23,289 price. And 301 00:48:23,454 --> 00:48:29,154 also all of the transaction fees on the sidechains are paid to Bitcoin miners so 302 00:48:29,154 --> 00:48:34,874 drivechain is designed to make Bitcoin more valuable and stronger 303 00:48:34,874 --> 00:48:40,714 in terms of miner revenue and also Bitcoin token price now you might ask 304 00:48:40,714 --> 00:48:43,258 well Henry how does like the value 305 00:48:43,498 --> 00:48:46,398 on the sidechain accrue to Bitcoin's mainchain? 306 00:48:46,638 --> 00:48:50,598 Well, there's what's called a two -way peg between the sidechain and the mainchain. 307 00:48:51,618 --> 00:48:55,718 And currently, the Bitcoin sidechains have this, the federated ones. 308 00:48:56,058 --> 00:48:57,078 They have a two -way peg. 309 00:48:57,378 --> 00:49:01,178 if you were to go out and buy, let's say, hypothetically, a billion dollars' worth of 310 00:49:01,178 --> 00:49:03,063 liquid Bitcoin, which is the native token 311 00:49:03,163 --> 00:49:05,343 of the liquid network sidechain. 312 00:49:05,783 --> 00:49:10,463 If you were buy a billion dollars worth of it, all that demand that you're creating for 313 00:49:10,463 --> 00:49:16,043 the liquid token would actually increase Bitcoin's price because there's a two -way peg 314 00:49:16,043 --> 00:49:20,303 between liquid Bitcoin and Bitcoin on the main chain, like actual Bitcoin. 315 00:49:21,563 --> 00:49:22,868 And that two -way peg means 316 00:49:22,948 --> 00:49:27,828 that if there's demand for the sidechain token, that increases the value of the main 317 00:49:27,828 --> 00:49:28,508 chain token. 318 00:49:29,888 --> 00:49:31,188 Does that that make sense? 319 00:49:34,628 --> 00:49:35,768 I know that was a lot of work. 320 00:49:35,948 --> 00:49:40,528 think so. And I think I get what you're saying, most to the most part, what I'm 321 00:49:40,528 --> 00:49:41,828 concerned with is like, 322 00:49:43,653 --> 00:49:47,133 I think would probably, it's like a, it's a vague sort of concern because I don't 323 00:49:47,133 --> 00:49:52,433 really know, but like LayerTwo Labs, like that's, that's your, you're employed by them, 324 00:49:52,433 --> 00:49:56,733 right? Yeah. they're the ones, are they the ones that the only group trying to 325 00:49:56,733 --> 00:49:58,713 implement the BIPs for Drivechain? 326 00:49:59,773 --> 00:50:02,433 Well, mean, other people talk about it 327 00:50:02,477 --> 00:50:05,917 who aren't in LayerTwo Labs like Fiatjaf, creator of Noster. 328 00:50:06,457 --> 00:50:12,277 He's a... Drivechain more like an overall term for the that avenue 329 00:50:12,277 --> 00:50:17,717 of trying to create a peer -to -peer version of like the like what Liquid does? 330 00:50:19,217 --> 00:50:21,077 mean, LayerTwo Labs is only one year old. 331 00:50:21,177 --> 00:50:22,277 Drivechains is eight years 332 00:50:22,282 --> 00:50:22,562 old. 333 00:50:24,062 --> 00:50:25,402 Yeah, I didn't really know that. 334 00:50:25,982 --> 00:50:27,262 didn't know. No problem. 335 00:50:27,562 --> 00:50:29,182 Almost no one's heard of LayerTwo Labs, 336 00:50:31,202 --> 00:50:32,942 but it only has five employees. 337 00:50:35,542 --> 00:50:36,642 That's what I was going to ask. 338 00:50:36,802 --> 00:50:38,602 many employees? it's got five people? 339 00:50:39,582 --> 00:50:40,382 Yeah, five employees. 340 00:50:40,722 --> 00:50:41,962 would say most of the Drivechain 341 00:50:42,087 --> 00:50:46,747 supporters don't have anything to do with LayerTwo Labs because it's like small kind of 342 00:50:46,747 --> 00:50:51,707 niche company. Drivechain, I would say, is the property of the whole Bitcoin community. 343 00:50:52,287 --> 00:50:53,647 The fact that... 344 00:50:53,647 --> 00:50:56,687 I don't know, that's...when I hear that, scares me. 345 00:50:56,947 --> 00:50:58,087 Because I'm like, is it? 346 00:50:58,187 --> 00:50:59,587 It's like Taproot or SegWit. 347 00:50:59,787 --> 00:51:01,891 It's an idea, part of the source 348 00:51:02,051 --> 00:51:08,051 development community. mean the Bips are listed on the Bitcoin GitHub and you 349 00:51:08,051 --> 00:51:12,791 know the maintainers or Luke or someone added the drivechain Bips to the GitHub for 350 00:51:12,791 --> 00:51:18,631 Bitcoin. So everyone in the world can see all of the code and the explanation 351 00:51:18,631 --> 00:51:21,696 for these Bips for for the consideration 352 00:51:21,696 --> 00:51:27,496 of the community it's like SegWit taproot BIP 119 any of 353 00:51:27,496 --> 00:51:31,476 these Proposals that had you know, some of which have been accepted some of which have 354 00:51:31,476 --> 00:51:36,496 been rejected others are just out there in Consideration and I would say drivechain is 355 00:51:36,496 --> 00:51:37,736 in that number 39 356 00:51:40,336 --> 00:51:41,216 BIP 39 357 00:51:42,421 --> 00:51:43,241 It's a good one, right? 358 00:51:45,721 --> 00:51:47,901 I mean, they're all very interesting. 359 00:51:50,581 --> 00:51:51,881 I really like BIP39. 360 00:51:52,161 --> 00:51:53,321 think it's a good one too, Raybo. 361 00:51:55,601 --> 00:51:56,641 Welcome to the stage. 362 00:51:58,421 --> 00:52:01,306 yeah, mean the purpose of 363 00:52:01,326 --> 00:52:06,426 these spaces, have them every Monday and Thursday, is just to chat about Drivechain and 364 00:52:06,426 --> 00:52:08,666 answer questions, share comments. 365 00:52:09,426 --> 00:52:13,166 Sometimes we have critics, we have supporters, sometimes we just have people who want 366 00:52:13,166 --> 00:52:15,086 to... Yeah, dude, what's the number one critic? 367 00:52:16,866 --> 00:52:21,110 What's overarching, when people have a problem with Drivechain or 368 00:52:21,110 --> 00:52:25,710 or they don't like it, I don't really feel either one way or the other because I don't 369 00:52:25,710 --> 00:52:26,830 fully understand it. 370 00:52:28,130 --> 00:52:31,170 What is the crux of the issue to you? 371 00:52:31,810 --> 00:52:37,530 Why has it been so long that there hasn't been a that passed? 372 00:52:37,850 --> 00:52:39,590 Or has there been any to do with it? 373 00:52:40,310 --> 00:52:40,830 no 374 00:52:41,095 --> 00:52:43,955 there has never been any Drivechain BIPs that have been adopted. 375 00:52:44,155 --> 00:52:45,035 There are two BIPs. 376 00:52:45,295 --> 00:52:47,155 It's BIP300 and 301. 377 00:52:47,755 --> 00:52:48,655 Those two BIPs. 378 00:52:48,975 --> 00:52:52,195 The first one is the two -way peg that's peer -to -peer called Hashrate Escrow. 379 00:52:52,575 --> 00:52:58,075 BIP301 is secondary and less important, but they're both designed to work together. 380 00:52:58,395 --> 00:53:00,635 The second one is called blind merge mining. 381 00:53:07,860 --> 00:53:11,680 just an improvement on that, designed by the Drivechain authors. 382 00:53:12,340 --> 00:53:17,420 what blind merge mining does is enables the Bitcoin miners to receive the transaction 383 00:53:17,420 --> 00:53:19,800 fees of the sidechains without running the 384 00:53:19,862 --> 00:53:25,762 sidechain node. blind merge mining lowers the burden and complexity of getting those 385 00:53:25,762 --> 00:53:27,662 fees for the Bitcoin miners. 386 00:53:27,862 --> 00:53:28,842 And you asked a great question. 387 00:53:30,422 --> 00:53:31,904 what's the primary 388 00:53:33,864 --> 00:53:37,044 by the Drivechain critics with respect to Drivechain? 389 00:53:37,864 --> 00:53:43,444 the primary objection, if you were to talk to Greg Maxwell or Shinobi 390 00:53:43,444 --> 00:53:47,136 or Peter Todd or other people 391 00:53:48,740 --> 00:53:53,520 Jimmy Song. Todd, he the barber in that movie with the Edward Scissorhands kind of 392 00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:53,680 vibe? 393 00:53:54,900 --> 00:53:55,820 A Sweeney Todd, bro. 394 00:53:58,420 --> 00:54:02,780 Yeah, so there are some big names in Bitcoin who don't like Drivechain and some that 395 00:54:02,780 --> 00:54:05,107 do, know, Fiatjaf 396 00:54:05,807 --> 00:54:09,287 Drivechain. 397 00:54:10,987 --> 00:54:14,567 So the critics, it's a great question, what's the criticisms? 398 00:54:14,987 --> 00:54:19,887 They would point to the influence of Drivechain on the and how the miners have a lot 399 00:54:19,887 --> 00:54:21,494 power in the drivechain 400 00:54:21,554 --> 00:54:27,314 ecosystem in their view, and that the miners would have too much power 401 00:54:27,314 --> 00:54:33,014 and influence, and that there might be force of less 402 00:54:33,014 --> 00:54:37,882 decentralization. If Drivechain's adopted, in their 403 00:54:37,942 --> 00:54:43,602 view, large miners could collude to steal money from the hashrate escrow. 404 00:54:44,442 --> 00:54:50,262 they also think that the burden of running nodes would arise for small miners. 405 00:54:50,442 --> 00:54:54,262 Even though blind merge mining exists, there would be a profit motive to have 406 00:54:54,269 --> 00:54:59,029 the nodes running Which would be hard for some small miner to have the nodes of the 407 00:54:59,029 --> 00:55:03,429 sidechain, especially if they're yeah What are the requirements it like or? 408 00:55:03,989 --> 00:55:09,069 What's the idea as far as so I didn't realize that part so you'd have to run a node So 409 00:55:09,069 --> 00:55:10,549 let's say I got Bitcoin core node. 410 00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:19,360 run the nodes of the sidechain. 411 00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:23,100 the whole system is designed to be completely optional. 412 00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:24,940 Like no one has to do anything. 413 00:55:25,260 --> 00:55:25,820 It's like lightning. 414 00:55:26,380 --> 00:55:29,380 doesn't have any negative impact on anyone. 415 00:55:29,660 --> 00:55:30,660 Like lightning doesn't harm 416 00:55:48,720 --> 00:55:52,600 Bitcoin to the sidechain to use the sidechain, 417 00:56:18,820 --> 00:56:24,180 the synthetic Bitcoin on the sidechain, which is one -for -one pegged with mainchain 418 00:56:24,180 --> 00:56:26,620 Bitcoin. That increases the price of Bitcoin. 419 00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:27,740 It's kind of like this. 420 00:56:27,980 --> 00:56:32,560 Imagine if Ethereum and Zcash were sidechains of Bitcoin. 421 00:56:33,180 --> 00:56:36,940 If that were the case, and all of the transaction fees were being paid 422 00:56:37,835 --> 00:56:41,575 The Bitcoin miners would have much higher revenue, which would mean... 423 00:56:41,575 --> 00:56:44,675 They probably should have pursued that and they'd be more relevant today. 424 00:56:45,495 --> 00:56:50,935 Exactly. That is the vision exactly of Drivechain, that it would create like harmony 425 00:56:50,935 --> 00:56:55,335 and collaboration among all of the altcoin communities, because they would get 426 00:56:55,390 --> 00:56:59,870 rid of their altcoin they'd come to Bitcoin use Bitcoin sidechains and then we'd all 427 00:56:59,870 --> 00:57:05,730 be Bitcoiners there would be no like competition for like who has the monetary 428 00:57:05,730 --> 00:57:11,670 token there'd no like money printing it all be about technology it would be better 429 00:57:11,670 --> 00:57:13,670 if the entire crypto community were just 430 00:57:13,726 --> 00:57:15,066 everything were built on Bitcoin. 431 00:57:15,706 --> 00:57:19,206 just, and we wouldn't be like judging the project so much. 432 00:57:19,586 --> 00:57:24,946 Like all of this hatred of altcoins, it really might go away if Drivechain's adopted 433 00:57:24,946 --> 00:57:27,646 and then all of the altcoins just go to zero in theory. 434 00:57:27,746 --> 00:57:32,026 That's like a fantasy scenario that I think will come true, but it's sort of hard 435 00:57:37,472 --> 00:57:38,912 just a Bitcoin sidechain. 436 00:57:39,852 --> 00:57:43,112 of the... the way I see it, really does have 100 % dominance. 437 00:57:43,632 --> 00:57:48,032 when you think about that, you got, let's say when people say it's a 50 % dominance, if 438 00:57:48,032 --> 00:57:52,612 I create 10 more tokens, that dominance goes down, but all I did was poof something out 439 00:57:52,612 --> 00:57:53,092 of the air. 440 00:57:54,152 --> 00:57:55,456 But I know what you're saying, I agree with 441 00:57:58,961 --> 00:57:59,441 You know what I mean? 442 00:57:59,721 --> 00:58:05,621 when people point to Bitcoin dominance, like it's a metric, it's really unfair, or 443 00:58:05,621 --> 00:58:11,361 it's skewed. Yeah, yeah, it's a complicated topic of market cap 444 00:58:11,361 --> 00:58:14,481 because, you know, they're stablecoins and also, 445 00:58:14,561 --> 00:58:19,581 Yeah, it's manipulated like someone can print a trillion tokens and then trade one of 446 00:58:19,581 --> 00:58:24,321 them for ten dollars and then they claim A ten trillion dollars. 447 00:58:24,561 --> 00:58:26,281 Look how fast it went. 448 00:58:26,281 --> 00:58:30,341 Okay, the speed the transactions per second Yeah, god damn. 449 00:58:30,681 --> 00:58:31,941 They claim a ten trillion dollar 450 00:58:32,201 --> 00:58:38,021 cap. So part of what it takes though to like really grok Drivechain, part of what it 451 00:58:38,021 --> 00:58:44,021 takes, and this is hard for a of people, is you've got to understand that there is some 452 00:58:44,021 --> 00:58:49,561 legitimate valuable technology in some altcoins and 453 00:58:49,941 --> 00:58:55,441 that it would be better for Bitcoiners and everyone if that technology were copied onto 454 00:58:55,441 --> 00:59:01,181 a Bitcoin sidechain, which would enable people to use that technology, but also 455 00:59:01,181 --> 00:59:02,841 have Bitcoin's unit of account. 456 00:59:02,841 --> 00:59:06,901 So for example, suppose there's another blockchain out there like Zcash or 457 00:59:07,061 --> 00:59:10,661 Monero. And suppose that it has very strong fungibility guarantees. 458 00:59:11,921 --> 00:59:17,901 the privacy community, people trading in a regime where the government is 459 00:59:17,901 --> 00:59:21,021 oppressive and they want strong privacy, which is their right. 460 00:59:21,721 --> 00:59:24,381 They might use Monero instead of Bitcoin, 461 00:59:25,501 --> 00:59:28,641 but the problem there is that Monero 462 00:59:28,641 --> 00:59:34,401 competes for monetary premium against Bitcoin. 463 00:59:34,541 --> 00:59:39,901 It would be ideal if those people could instead use a Bitcoin sidechain, which doesn't 464 00:59:39,901 --> 00:59:41,981 compete for monetary premium 465 00:59:42,061 --> 00:59:46,881 against Bitcoin. They would be transacting in a unit of account that is one Bitcoin 466 00:59:46,881 --> 00:59:49,641 on this privacy sidechain. 467 00:59:49,781 --> 00:59:53,281 And then when they're done, they could do the peg out back to the main chain, get 468 00:59:53,281 --> 00:59:55,521 Bitcoin and be done with the sidechain. 469 00:59:56,441 --> 00:59:59,561 It's kind of like, it's kind of like, imagine you have gold 470 00:59:59,561 --> 01:00:04,521 bars and you convert them into gold coins by melting them down and casting them as gold 471 01:00:04,521 --> 01:00:09,401 coins. And then when you're done with the coins, you can get back to bars by just 472 01:00:09,401 --> 01:00:12,121 melting down the coins and then putting them into bars again. 473 01:00:12,501 --> 01:00:16,741 So that's an example of a two -way peg in physical reality. 474 01:00:17,021 --> 01:00:21,861 But on the blockchain, there can be a two -way peg between the sidechain and the main 475 01:00:21,861 --> 01:00:24,881 chain. every sidechain would be another blockchain. 476 01:00:25,441 --> 01:00:31,001 and The idea the holy grail of Bitcoin development since like for the last decade has 477 01:00:31,001 --> 01:00:32,861 been how do we have a sidechain? 478 01:00:33,301 --> 01:00:35,541 Where it's trustless and peer -to -peer 479 01:00:35,561 --> 01:00:40,361 -peer, and you can move value, can move a Bitcoin from the main chain to the sidechain 480 01:00:40,361 --> 01:00:41,161 and then get back. 481 01:00:42,521 --> 01:00:47,221 So, if you've heard about like soft chains and space chains, there have been some 482 01:00:47,221 --> 01:00:52,741 people who are tinkering and exploring with the idea of sidechains trying to keep them 483 01:00:52,741 --> 01:00:53,321 peer -to -peer. 484 01:00:53,921 --> 01:00:54,061 The 485 01:00:54,081 --> 01:00:58,901 hardest part is the peg -out mechanism, which is moving value from the sidechain back to 486 01:00:58,901 --> 01:01:01,861 the mainchain in a manner that's not federated. 487 01:01:03,001 --> 01:01:08,441 that's what Drivechain is designed to achieve, is a 488 01:01:08,441 --> 01:01:12,561 peer -to -peer peg -out mechanism 489 01:01:12,721 --> 01:01:16,681 for Bitcoin sidechains, which currently doesn't exist. 490 01:01:17,081 --> 01:01:22,861 currently, if you use a sidechain like Rootstock or Liquid, when you want to move your 491 01:01:22,861 --> 01:01:27,201 value back to the main chain, when you're finished using the sidechain, you're to be 492 01:01:27,201 --> 01:01:30,861 dealing with a federated 493 01:01:31,061 --> 01:01:34,441 group of persons who are controlling those pegouts. 494 01:01:34,841 --> 01:01:37,961 it's arguably permissioned and not peer -to -peer. 495 01:01:39,841 --> 01:01:43,961 with Drivechain, that architecture is improved. 496 01:01:44,141 --> 01:01:49,001 People have an option to use the Drivechain setup once it's adopted by the community. 497 01:01:49,001 --> 01:01:49,561 and 498 01:01:49,901 --> 01:01:55,341 then the whole idea is to make Bitcoin sidechains a more vibrant and successful part of 499 01:01:55,341 --> 01:01:56,301 the Bitcoin ecosystem. 500 01:01:57,081 --> 01:02:01,181 And it would give Bitcoin a narrative that you can build anything on Bitcoin. 501 01:02:01,581 --> 01:02:05,061 It would give Bitcoin a narrative that it currently doesn't have. 502 01:02:05,361 --> 01:02:07,981 Right now, the altcoins have a certain narrative, 503 01:02:08,061 --> 01:02:13,261 which is, they would say, it's hard to build on Bitcoin or impossible to build on 504 01:02:13,261 --> 01:02:16,141 Bitcoin. So we have to do an altcoin. 505 01:02:17,501 --> 01:02:20,741 So that was actually the rationale of Ethereum. 506 01:02:21,721 --> 01:02:26,841 As you know, the Ethereum white paper, the whole first couple pages are about how it's 507 01:02:26,841 --> 01:02:29,581 hard or impossible to build on Bitcoin. 508 01:02:30,021 --> 01:02:33,381 So that's why they had to do a new altcoin. 509 01:02:34,361 --> 01:02:39,821 And if Drivechain had existed then, then they wouldn't have been able to make that 510 01:02:39,821 --> 01:02:44,041 argument. So Drivechain would deprive Altcoin... 511 01:02:44,121 --> 01:02:49,981 founders of their most valuable narrative, is it's impossible to build on Bitcoin and 512 01:02:49,981 --> 01:02:51,821 therefore we need to build on altcoins. 513 01:02:52,521 --> 01:02:54,208 So I think that 514 01:02:57,061 --> 01:02:58,921 oh, Drivechain would validate altcoins. 515 01:02:59,581 --> 01:03:01,301 Like they already have the 516 01:03:06,828 --> 01:03:07,868 technologies on Bitcoin. 517 01:03:09,188 --> 01:03:12,888 But if Drivechain were adopted, Bitcoin would seize that narrative. 518 01:03:13,428 --> 01:03:17,588 Now, Bitcoin would be able to say, everything you want to build on a blockchain, can 519 01:03:17,588 --> 01:03:21,468 build on Bitcoin, especially on a Bitcoin sidechain. 520 01:03:21,468 --> 01:03:24,369 So drivechain would strengthen 521 01:03:24,629 --> 01:03:29,649 Bitcoin's narratives and I think, like, weaken the altcoins narratives. 522 01:03:30,409 --> 01:03:31,909 And that's the whole idea. 523 01:03:32,249 --> 01:03:35,789 So, if you want to have an extremely strong privacy technology like Zcash, 524 01:03:37,109 --> 01:03:39,689 then you could build it on a Bitcoin sidechain. 525 01:03:39,889 --> 01:03:41,609 And fact, the Drivechain testnet 526 01:03:41,910 --> 01:03:44,610 has a clone of Zcash running. 527 01:03:46,050 --> 01:03:50,710 so the idea is there that you're moving Bitcoin around in an extremely private way 528 01:03:50,710 --> 01:03:55,970 using the technology of Zcash, but you're not using the Zcash altcoin, you're using the 529 01:03:55,970 --> 01:03:59,250 Bitcoin token. So the only way you 530 01:03:59,451 --> 01:04:04,991 people would get tokens on the sidechain is by sending Bitcoin 531 01:04:04,991 --> 01:04:07,511 to the sidechain. 532 01:04:07,831 --> 01:04:11,251 And therefore, the 21 million hard cap is preserved. 533 01:04:11,731 --> 01:04:16,651 Even though Bitcoin is circulating on all these sidechains, there isn't any monetary 534 01:04:16,651 --> 01:04:16,992 issuance. 535 01:04:34,401 --> 01:04:39,721 So every time someone creates like Ethereum or Monero or anything else, they're 536 01:04:39,721 --> 01:04:42,161 printing money to, you know, create their altcoin. 537 01:04:42,801 --> 01:04:46,181 It would be better if they had just created a Bitcoin sidechain. 538 01:04:46,901 --> 01:04:51,761 So Drivechain tends to interest people who have a strong interest in kind of technology 539 01:04:51,761 --> 01:04:52,541 and innovative 540 01:04:52,726 --> 01:04:56,706 stuff like Fiatjaf, the creator of Noster likes drivechain a lot. 541 01:04:57,446 --> 01:05:00,626 So it attracts people who have a strong technology orientation. 542 01:05:01,546 --> 01:05:06,666 Although there are some critics who worry that drivechain would complicate the 543 01:05:06,666 --> 01:05:08,286 economic design of Bitcoin 544 01:05:09,706 --> 01:05:11,390 and they worry that 545 01:05:11,430 --> 01:05:13,490 it places power in the hands of the miners. 546 01:05:14,930 --> 01:05:20,790 So there are some lingering questions and concerns within the Bitcoin community 547 01:05:20,790 --> 01:05:24,070 about Drivechain, and that's why it's been around for so many years. 548 01:05:25,370 --> 01:05:29,970 But I think that its time has yet to come, and maybe in the next 549 01:05:30,055 --> 01:05:34,615 couple of months or years we could see it adopted on Bitcoin and that would be very 550 01:05:34,615 --> 01:05:35,155 interesting. 551 01:05:38,715 --> 01:05:40,095 That's what it's all about. 552 01:05:45,135 --> 01:05:48,615 I welcome you to share any thoughts or 553 01:05:48,720 --> 01:06:05,480 about that. Yeah, I guess for for I think like, if it works, that's, it seems like a 554 01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:09,360 good thing. What is the concern around the miners having too much power because what 555 01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:14,160 they collect more fees, or how would it give them an edge like over what how it already 556 01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:24,561 stands? So the Yeah, that's a great question. The um, the miners would get a lot more fees 557 01:06:24,561 --> 01:06:31,600 from transactions, because let's say there are some very large sidechains on Bitcoin 558 01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:36,201 in the future that are merged mind. So the miners will be getting fees from main chain 559 01:06:36,201 --> 01:06:45,201 transaction fees, and also sidechain transaction fees. And the there's like a complicated theory 560 01:06:45,201 --> 01:06:51,081 that goes like this, that some miners that are very large will want to run the nodes 561 01:06:51,081 --> 01:06:56,980 of the sidechains in order to get even more fees because there could be meth, there could 562 01:06:56,980 --> 01:07:05,540 be like a complicated profitable opportunity from running the node of the sidechain. For 563 01:07:05,540 --> 01:07:10,220 example, you know how there's like meth on Ethereum, there's this issue where like, certain 564 01:07:10,461 --> 01:07:15,660 parties in the Ethereum ecosystem are making more money by like reordering transactions and 565 01:07:15,660 --> 01:07:21,061 other complicated things. Well, if the Bitcoin sidechain, if all of the if all of the 566 01:07:21,061 --> 01:07:27,540 Ethereum were a Bitcoin sidechain, then that meth would be happening just the same way. So 567 01:07:28,980 --> 01:07:32,901 some people are concerned about that. And they want to keep Bitcoin very simple. Like that's 568 01:07:32,901 --> 01:07:38,860 what Peter Todd has said in some YouTubes and spaces I've seen, or maybe just YouTube, I'm not 569 01:07:38,860 --> 01:07:43,300 sure if I've seen him on spaces, but he talks about how he's had some debates with Paul 570 01:07:43,300 --> 01:07:48,540 Sztorc, who is the lead designer of Drivechain. I've seen them talk on one or two YouTubes. And 571 01:07:48,540 --> 01:07:54,420 Peter has said that, you know, Drivechain would complicate Bitcoin and complicate the 572 01:07:54,420 --> 01:08:00,821 economics of mining. So that's, that's one of the concerns about it is that it would make 573 01:08:00,821 --> 01:08:05,740 Bitcoin more complicated. So some people want to have Bitcoin be as simple as possible, just be 574 01:08:05,740 --> 01:08:10,300 about payments, not about, you know, financial, like more complicated financial 575 01:08:10,300 --> 01:08:16,141 transactions. Because if you introduce smart contracts onto a blockchain, then there becomes 576 01:08:16,461 --> 01:08:24,780 the possibility of profit being achieved by a miner who can choose which transactions to include 577 01:08:24,780 --> 01:08:32,860 in a block. Like let's say you and I have a smart contract that says that, you know, if something 578 01:08:32,860 --> 01:08:38,701 happens, if a certain kind of transaction happens before a certain block, then you get paid. But if 579 01:08:38,701 --> 01:08:44,341 it doesn't happen, then I get paid. Well, that would give you the opportunity, you like a 580 01:08:44,341 --> 01:08:50,540 profitable incentive to try to include that transaction before a certain block happens. So 581 01:08:50,540 --> 01:08:56,461 there could be a bet placed on the blockchain, a smart contract, where a miner has a profitable 582 01:08:56,461 --> 01:09:04,341 incentive to include a transaction earlier than later. That's like a very simple kind of example 583 01:09:04,341 --> 01:09:10,100 of the kind of thing I'm talking about, which is that miners might have an incentive to start doing 584 01:09:10,100 --> 01:09:17,620 certain things to make more money. So the critics of drivechain are interested in that kind of 585 01:09:17,620 --> 01:09:27,420 reasoning. But the advocates for drivechain would say that in order for Bitcoin to be successful, it 586 01:09:27,420 --> 01:09:32,941 has to be the platform where anything can be built on blockchain. And that way we bring, you know, all 587 01:09:32,941 --> 01:09:37,780 of the shit coins over to Bitcoin, bring all of their technology, all of their value, all of their 588 01:09:37,780 --> 01:09:42,941 transaction fees, all of their users, make all of those people Bitcoiners. That's the goal of drive 589 01:09:42,941 --> 01:09:50,660 chain is to make the entire crypto community built on Bitcoin. And that way there are no more alt 590 01:09:50,660 --> 01:09:58,461 coins being minted. And Bitcoin would have no competitors, nobody would be worried about the 591 01:09:58,461 --> 01:10:04,100 flippening. And there would be also a ton of transaction fees paid to Bitcoin miners. So nobody 592 01:10:04,100 --> 01:10:10,540 would be worried about the security budget. So there are there are interesting, different 593 01:10:10,581 --> 01:10:16,141 motivations for drivechain. Like a person can like drivechain because they like innovation and 594 01:10:16,141 --> 01:10:20,540 building. That's like the Adam Back approach. Like Adam Back is not worried about the security 595 01:10:20,540 --> 01:10:25,660 budget, but he does like innovation and he likes peer to peer technology. So that's why he's into 596 01:10:25,660 --> 01:10:31,021 drivechain. Like I've read all of his statements and tweets about it. And those are the things he 597 01:10:31,021 --> 01:10:37,941 emphasizes peer to peer and innovation. So he's into drivechain for those reasons. Other people like 598 01:10:37,941 --> 01:10:42,980 drivechain because it would bring more fees. And there other people are worried about the security 599 01:10:42,980 --> 01:10:48,180 budget, which is the idea that the fees could stay low forever. And therefore the miners wouldn't have 600 01:10:48,180 --> 01:10:55,220 enough income. And therefore the cost to attack the network as a 51% miner would fall. So drivechain 601 01:10:56,180 --> 01:11:03,860 could fix that because it would bring fees from all these sidechains to Bitcoin miners and that would 602 01:11:03,901 --> 01:11:10,501 increase their fee revenue. So as the subsidy is halved every four years, if the fees are going up a 603 01:11:10,501 --> 01:11:17,381 lot, then it's okay that the subsidy is being halved. For example, Peter Todd has said he would 604 01:11:17,381 --> 01:11:22,980 like he would support inflation for Bitcoin. So he would support a fork that would introduce 605 01:11:22,980 --> 01:11:29,420 perpetual tail issuance inflation on Bitcoin. So instead of 21 million, he would be okay with like 606 01:11:29,461 --> 01:11:37,701 1% you know, inflation forever. If I'm not I hope I'm not misquoting him. I think he's he's he said he 607 01:11:37,701 --> 01:11:44,501 would support 1% or 0.1% or something, some amount of inflation forever, which a lot of Bitcoiners 608 01:11:44,501 --> 01:11:49,980 wouldn't like and I wouldn't like it. So I would prefer we get more fees rather than keep things 609 01:11:49,980 --> 01:11:56,420 simple, don't have sidechains and then try to do inflation instead. So that security budget problem, 610 01:11:56,420 --> 01:12:00,860 that's like one line of reasoning that has interested some people. In fact, that's what got me 611 01:12:00,860 --> 01:12:06,540 interested originally in drivechain, but I've kind of come around and I found that the most effective way 612 01:12:06,540 --> 01:12:12,061 to talk about it is the way that Adam talks about it, which is not to talk about fees or security 613 01:12:12,061 --> 01:12:18,660 budget instead to talk about innovation and peer to peer technology. Those are like the essences of 614 01:12:18,821 --> 01:12:25,381 drivechain that I think speak to the most number of people in the most effective way. Like even if 615 01:12:25,381 --> 01:12:31,061 there weren't any altcoins, we would still want to do drivechain to enable more peer to peer 616 01:12:31,100 --> 01:12:38,180 innovation on top of Bitcoin. So it's not about drivechain is not just about worrying about altcoins 617 01:12:38,180 --> 01:12:43,701 and worrying about competition. It's it's even if those altcoins didn't exist, we would still want to 618 01:12:43,701 --> 01:12:47,821 build on Bitcoin in a peer to peer manner. 619 01:12:59,420 --> 01:13:04,540 Yeah, so what do you think needs to happen? What are the obstacles until like, what's holding it back from 620 01:13:04,540 --> 01:13:11,901 being approved? I mean, we talked about what what people have against it and stuff, but like, when it 621 01:13:11,901 --> 01:13:19,461 really comes down to it for getting a bit like this activated, like, what's the roadmap look like? You 622 01:13:19,461 --> 01:13:24,860 think it'll you're saying it'll happen sooner than later? Not sooner than later, but in some format in 623 01:13:24,860 --> 01:13:30,420 the future? Like, is there some obstacle that needs to overcome to prove to people it's a good idea? 624 01:13:31,420 --> 01:13:38,061 So the way that Bitcoin development actually happens in terms of consensus soft forks like this is 625 01:13:38,061 --> 01:13:42,860 something which you get, you would get different answers from different people. My understanding, 626 01:13:42,980 --> 01:13:51,901 having read articles about it, and talk to people is that when there's a consensus soft fork proposal, like 627 01:13:51,901 --> 01:13:58,061 SegWit, or Taproot, which are the most recent two major ones, maybe the only major ones, except for 628 01:13:58,061 --> 01:14:02,620 something that may have happened like long ago. You know, there's some debate about which there's some 629 01:14:02,620 --> 01:14:07,660 debate about which changes to Bitcoin were soft forks and which were hard forks. But to keep things 630 01:14:07,660 --> 01:14:14,221 really simple, basically, the big two are SegWit and Taproot. And the way that those happened was that there 631 01:14:14,221 --> 01:14:20,380 was like a sense in the community that most of the Bitcoiners wanted it. And once there's that consent, 632 01:14:20,380 --> 01:14:26,821 there's that sense of things, then people say there's consensus when like, almost everybody likes an idea, 633 01:14:27,061 --> 01:14:35,581 we say that there's consensus. And then the Bitcoin Core maintainers, which are a group of people who are 634 01:14:35,581 --> 01:14:43,821 experts in open source software development, they control, like five, approximately five people have 635 01:14:43,821 --> 01:14:53,941 like access to like the permissions on GitHub to merge code. So BIP300 and 301 are code. And the 636 01:14:53,941 --> 01:15:02,341 maintainers could click to like merge that code into Bitcoin Core. And that would be like the start of 637 01:15:02,341 --> 01:15:10,101 Drivechain being a part of Bitcoin. And then people download nodes, like the new software from the Bitcoin 638 01:15:10,101 --> 01:15:15,821 core. And then they would have that on their node, and then they would, Drivechain would be up and 639 01:15:15,821 --> 01:15:23,741 running. So the answer to your question is, the thing that needs to happen in order for Drivechain to be a part 640 01:15:23,741 --> 01:15:32,020 of Bitcoin is there needs to be widespread support for it in the Bitcoin community. So if everybody were like, 641 01:15:32,020 --> 01:15:38,380 yeah, we want to have sidechains on Bitcoin that are more peer to peer, so we can build on Bitcoin, side 642 01:15:38,380 --> 01:15:44,821 chains and strengthen Bitcoin, and maybe in the process, eliminate altcoins and strengthen the security 643 01:15:44,821 --> 01:15:53,140 budget, like if people were all saying that, then it would happen. And right now, there's some like work being 644 01:15:53,140 --> 01:16:02,900 done to rebase the code. rebasing means making the Drivechain code compatible fully with like the latest 645 01:16:02,900 --> 01:16:08,420 version of Bitcoin Core such that if the community supports it, then the code could be merged into 646 01:16:08,420 --> 01:16:20,341 Bitcoin Core. So the goal of LayerTwo Labs is to like fund the project of rebasing because it's expensive, it 647 01:16:20,341 --> 01:16:27,581 requires like an expert on Bitcoin code to work many hours on the code to make sure that it's like totally 648 01:16:27,581 --> 01:16:37,020 cleaned up and ready. So there's that work being done. And then also like popularizing the idea explaining it. So 649 01:16:38,300 --> 01:16:46,420 it's it's a long it's been a long project, you know, Drivechain wasn't was first introduced in like 2015. And 650 01:16:46,420 --> 01:16:55,621 then now we're eight years in to this conversation. And it's just steadily been growing over time. Some people 651 01:16:55,621 --> 01:17:02,341 would say it's like never gonna happen. For example, recently, Eric Wall went on Peter, Peter McCormack's 652 01:17:02,341 --> 01:17:09,861 podcast, what Bitcoin did. And Eric said, and he's a Drivechain supporter. And he said, it's it's dead. He said it 653 01:17:09,861 --> 01:17:19,140 is dead, like it's not happening. So that and he's a supporter of it. He's been a supporter for years. So some 654 01:17:19,140 --> 01:17:30,420 people think it's never going to happen. But I think it's really cool. And we'll have to wait and see. Probably this 655 01:17:30,420 --> 01:17:37,741 is going to be the year where things come to a head. So either it'll happen this year, or it just really won't go 656 01:17:37,741 --> 01:17:44,900 anywhere. Because now the idea has like funding behind it. So LayerTwo Labs raised $3 million from angel investors 657 01:17:45,140 --> 01:17:52,180 to, you know, promote this idea, and try to build related projects, like build out the sidechains, and make this 658 01:17:52,180 --> 01:18:03,540 happen. So in the coming months, if not a couple of years, whether Drivechain will become part of Bitcoin, or whether 659 01:18:03,540 --> 01:18:09,540 some other idea will come along, like there's Simplicity, which is an upgrade for Bitcoin that has been developed by 660 01:18:09,540 --> 01:18:16,020 Blockstream. So, you know, in the coming years, that will be increasingly talked about as a major change for Bitcoin 661 01:18:16,020 --> 01:18:26,581 potentially. And there's other ideas out there that have been proposed for Bitcoin. Drivechain is just one of them. So 662 01:18:26,581 --> 01:18:33,061 we'll see which idea kind of gets adopted by the community. And there are some people who would say Bitcoin should never 663 01:18:33,061 --> 01:18:40,540 change again. So those people are in favor of ossification. They're in favor of keeping Bitcoin the way it is, and not to 664 01:18:40,540 --> 01:18:49,621 have any more consensus soft fork upgrades, unless a bug appears or unless there's some problem. So some people are in favor 665 01:18:49,621 --> 01:18:53,300 of just keeping things the way they are, and not really changing anything. 666 01:18:53,300 --> 01:19:08,260 I appreciate your questions. They were great questions. So this has been Drivechain Twitter Spaces run by LayerTwo Labs. We meet 667 01:19:08,260 --> 01:19:20,180 every Monday and Thursday at 930am Pacific to chat about Drivechain and discuss the latest ideas. Drivechain is BIP300 and 301. You 668 01:19:20,221 --> 01:19:32,020 can learn more at drivechain.info. There's also videos. If you go to the LayerTwo Labs YouTube channel, there's like dozens of 669 01:19:32,020 --> 01:19:40,221 videos there, mostly of Paul Sztorc giving lectures at Bitcoin conferences. Like he spoke last year with Adam Back on stage at 670 01:19:40,221 --> 01:19:51,061 Bitcoin Amsterdam, and again at Bitcoin Honeybadger, Baltic Honeybadger in Latvia. So last year was a pretty big year, because 671 01:19:51,061 --> 01:20:03,621 Adam spoke two times on stage with Paul about Drivechain and other things. And Fiatjaf is a supporter, Mike Tidwell of 672 01:20:03,861 --> 01:20:14,900 TabConf, which is like the most kind of like hardcore technology focused conference. Well, not the most, but one of them. And Tidwell is 673 01:20:14,900 --> 01:20:21,420 very sophisticated, lightning focused programmer, and he is a big supporter of Drivechain. It has been for years. So some of the most 674 01:20:22,540 --> 01:20:30,900 sophisticated and well respected Bitcoin thinkers and developers like it. But of course, there are some detractors, like I think Greg 675 01:20:30,900 --> 01:20:37,981 Maxwell is like opposed to Drivechain. At least I know that from like an email he wrote publicly in 2017. I'm not sure if he's ever 676 01:20:37,981 --> 01:20:46,420 expressed the public view since then on it. But maybe we'll see this year, something cool could happen. There could be someone who 677 01:20:46,420 --> 01:20:51,981 comes forward, who hasn't really shared a view yet, who who likes it. 678 01:20:56,180 --> 01:21:05,621 Jeff, welcome to the stage. If you have any questions or comments or criticisms or anything you want to say, we have four minutes left. Four 679 01:21:05,621 --> 01:21:14,140 minutes left in our scheduled programming. Usually we talk from like 9.30 to 11. So we're getting ready to wrap up today. But chime in if 680 01:21:14,140 --> 01:21:14,780 you'd like. 681 01:21:15,780 --> 01:21:23,780 Thank you. I really don't have anything intelligent to add. I do. I like the sound of your voice. It's really soothing. And I wasn't 682 01:21:23,780 --> 01:21:30,701 really listening to anything that you were saying most of the time, but just the tonality and the way that your voice flows. And it makes 683 01:21:30,701 --> 01:21:38,660 for like a really zen type of experience. I'm a little stoned right now. So it's a good vibe. I appreciate it. I appreciate you for 684 01:21:38,660 --> 01:21:39,380 that. Thank you. 685 01:21:40,341 --> 01:21:46,780 That's very sweet of you to say. I would like to return the compliment. I think you have a lovely tone of voice. And you also have an 686 01:21:46,780 --> 01:21:54,660 impressive vocabulary. You mentioned tonality and other things. So I find you to have a mellifluous and sophisticated persona on the 687 01:21:54,660 --> 01:21:56,981 internet. And I congratulate you for that. 688 01:21:58,020 --> 01:21:59,101 Are you flirting with me right now? 689 01:22:00,020 --> 01:22:11,140 Well, that would be a betrayal of my, you know, holy matrimony with my wife. So I would, I would say that I'm probably not. But, you 690 01:22:11,140 --> 01:22:14,180 know, I was just making sure. That's okay. 691 01:22:16,260 --> 01:22:19,380 Well, let's see. 692 01:22:19,380 --> 01:22:29,941 I hope that if anyone takes anything away from this conversation, it's that sidechains on Bitcoin are an important topic. And that at some 693 01:22:29,941 --> 01:22:37,981 point in the future, if you're devoted to Bitcoin, if you love Bitcoin, and if you want Bitcoin to succeed, then it behooves you to 694 01:22:37,981 --> 01:22:53,341 understand what is a Bitcoin sidechain? What is the history of this idea of Bitcoin sidechains? And what is merged mining? So those are key 695 01:22:53,341 --> 01:23:01,621 concepts. You don't have to be a drivechain supporter, to know that merged mining is something Satoshi invented. And he specifically said 696 01:23:01,621 --> 01:23:11,221 that all blockchains in the future would be merged mine with Bitcoin. He wrote that in the bit DNS thread. So Satoshi had a view that 697 01:23:11,221 --> 01:23:19,341 everything will be built on Bitcoin to some extent. And I think that drivechain might fulfill that vision and eliminate all of the 698 01:23:19,341 --> 01:23:28,861 competition from altcoins and enable Bitcoin holders to hold their token for 100 years and retain value and grow their value without having to 699 01:23:28,861 --> 01:23:38,260 worry about pivoting to some other blockchain. So the goal is to make Bitcoin the strongest possible, widest and most successful 700 01:23:38,260 --> 01:23:47,701 system. And also, like, in my sort of studies of drivechain, I found that it becomes apparent when you think about it enough, and you read 701 01:23:47,701 --> 01:23:57,221 enough about it that, like the blockchain that achieves a design similar to drivechain is the one that's going to in the very far future be 702 01:23:57,221 --> 01:24:06,380 the one and only blockchain base layer. So we want that to be Bitcoin, we want Bitcoin to be the base layer to all the other applications out 703 01:24:06,380 --> 01:24:16,660 there that are on blockchain. And if Bitcoin were to maintain a simple, narrow mandate of only doing payments of a certain kind, plus lightning, I 704 01:24:16,660 --> 01:24:26,420 think that technological platform wouldn't be expansive enough. And a different blockchain would grow and accrue value and compete with 705 01:24:26,420 --> 01:24:35,020 Bitcoin. So mainly Ethereum. So the goal here is before Ethereum ossifies its main chain, it would be good for Bitcoin to develop its side 706 01:24:35,020 --> 01:24:44,900 chains fully. And therefore it would, it would probably absorb all of the value from Ethereum. And Bitcoin would then be left as the sole, you 707 01:24:44,900 --> 01:24:54,461 know, layer one that's standing. In fact, the drivechain, you know, testnet includes a clone of Ethereum and Zcash. So those were the two that 708 01:24:54,461 --> 01:25:03,900 the developers chose to start with. So they've cloned those blockchains into Bitcoin sidechains. And then that would enable all of the users 709 01:25:03,900 --> 01:25:12,061 to move over and use Bitcoin. There's a lot of demand, there is a lot of demand to do smart contracting with Bitcoin. That's why $4 billion has 710 01:25:12,061 --> 01:25:23,741 been sent into BitGo's wrapped Bitcoin product. People want to use Bitcoin in a smart contracting blockchain. So it's unfortunate that 711 01:25:23,741 --> 01:25:32,821 everyone's using the wrapped Bitcoin product because it's totally centralized. A single company, BitGo, as I understand, is more or less in 712 01:25:32,821 --> 01:25:47,861 control of that $4 billion of value of actual Bitcoin. So it'd be good if instead that were peer to peer and, you know, more trustless. So 713 01:25:47,861 --> 01:25:59,500 that's the whole story. Well, it's 11 o'clock now. Let's pick up this conversation on Thursday. You're all you all are welcome back. It was 714 01:25:59,500 --> 01:26:08,140 awesome to have you here. Thanks for the very good questions, Raybon and Jeff. Catch you next time on Thursday. Drivechain Twitter spaces 715 01:26:08,140 --> 01:26:18,941 every Monday and Thursday. We chat about BIP300 and 301, sidechains, merged mining, innovation. That's what it's all about. I hope to see you 716 01:26:18,941 --> 01:26:20,260 all again on Thursday.