1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:06,000 Hello and welcome to Offchain Live. Today I have a very special guest, Paul Sztorc, 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:08,960 and we're going to talk about Drivechains. Paul, you want to say hi? 3 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:10,480 Hello everyone. 4 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:19,520 Yeah, so I mean this is something that I don't know how familiar my viewers might be with 5 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:27,040 Drivechains, so let's just start right off with that. What is Drivechains exactly and what is it 6 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:27,840 going to solve? 7 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:33,440 Yeah, it's kind of like, it's like that book, also Sprach Zarathustra, which is like, 8 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:37,040 it's like a book for everyone and no one or something, where it's kind of like, 9 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:45,600 sidechains are kind of a big idea. So there are a lot of ways of explaining what they are and sort 10 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,600 of what they do. Like sometimes I give an analogy of like a stop sign, like you could describe what 11 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:54,240 a stop sign is, that it has eight sides and then it's red, but that's not really like the same 12 00:00:54,240 --> 00:01:00,720 thing as describing what it does. But sidechains, I would describe in the broadest strokes as just 13 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:07,760 kind of trying to improve something about blockchains. So with a blockchain, everyone 14 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:13,680 needs to have perfect consensus down to the last byte and as a result, everyone is kind of marching 15 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:22,240 forward and since everyone has to be together, the whole group can only go as slow as the slowest 16 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:29,040 person. And since everyone has already agreed on where they're marching and how fast, quickly 17 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:34,400 they're marching, it's very difficult to make any changes. So you have this contradiction where on 18 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:40,400 one hand, software has this kind of permissionless innovation, break everything, you know, move fast 19 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:48,080 to break things like Silicon Valley, creative destruction. You have all this feel for 20 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:53,440 this kind of this way of life almost on GitHub where you fork a project and you try to 21 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:58,160 improve it and you have all these competing versions of Linux and all these other things. But on the 22 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:03,280 other hand, the blockchain just rigidly enforces total conformity. So what sidechains are is basically 23 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:08,960 they let you have all these different pieces of software that are totally different, they're 24 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:15,040 totally autonomous, but they can share, you can try to pick a few features that they share and the trick 25 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:21,360 is to of course have them share the same 21 million coin limit and have only valid transactions 26 00:02:21,920 --> 00:02:27,520 going in and out. So another way of expressing that, maybe shorter, is to just say that it lets 27 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:33,520 Bitcoin pretend to be Ethereum for, you know, the individual Bitcoins themselves. They can go over 28 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:38,720 to a different place and pretend to be Ethereum for a while and then they can stop pretending to 29 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:44,800 be Ethereum and they can come back. So that's sort of the key, isn't it? It's that you 30 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:52,160 have the 21 million Bitcoin limit and that limit is still preserved in the sidechains. Can you 31 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:58,400 talk about that a little more? How do you make sure that no new coins are created or sort of 32 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:08,240 messed with? Yeah, so what you want, a sidechain is very similar to an altcoin, so they're 33 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:15,040 almost exactly the same except for that one fact that they share the same amount of coins and it's 34 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:22,640 actually quite manageable for most of the project to achieve that because all you do is edit the 35 00:03:22,640 --> 00:03:28,160 altcoin so that it doesn't create any coins by itself. So it starts with zero coins and it doesn't 36 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:33,840 create any coins and then you make it so that only when someone does something with their Bitcoin 37 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:41,680 wallet, you know, sending the coins into the sidechain, does it credit people on the sidechain 38 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:47,360 with new coins and then you just wait for someone to destroy the coins on the altcoin and then you 39 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:52,320 have to bring the unlock those coins on Bitcoin. So maybe that wasn't a great explanation but 40 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:57,280 the essence is that I think one easy way of thinking about sidechains is that they're very, 41 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:02,800 very similar to altcoins but they have this extra accounting built in and a lot of that accounting 42 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:08,080 is very easy. So starting with zero and ending with zero is very easy. 43 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:15,120 Crediting the user with coins only when their Bitcoin, when they do something special with 44 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:19,760 their Bitcoin, user does something with their Bitcoin and then they show it to the sidechain, 45 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:25,920 the sidechain gives them credit for that, for depositing those coins into the sidechain. So that 46 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,560 part, most of it's very easy. There's only one part that's really difficult which is what do you do 47 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:34,960 when you have the sidechain coins, those on this, basically this other piece of software. 48 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:42,960 That software has to do something to effectively destroy those coins. When you click withdraw 49 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:48,960 on the sidechain, it's going to produce something that somehow has to unlock the coins on the 50 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,320 Bitcoin network. That is the difficult part but everything else is quite easy. 51 00:04:53,840 --> 00:04:59,280 Right, right. So transferring coins from Bitcoin to the sidechain isn't very hard. Sort of managing 52 00:04:59,280 --> 00:05:03,760 it within the sidechain isn't very hard and managing it within Bitcoin is already sort of 53 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:10,160 done for you with transactions. But getting it from the sidechain to the Bitcoin chain, that 54 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:16,000 seems to be the hard part that pretty much every sidechain implementation has sort of struggled 55 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:22,160 with. What's Drivechain's approach? What are you doing? I think we can talk about that but first, 56 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:26,480 I'm happy to talk about that but let's just I think give people a little bit of a taste of like 57 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:34,720 so there is of what is possible if someone succeeds in doing this as I suggest. Maybe I 58 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:39,360 have the best idea that is possible. Maybe it's not good enough. Maybe there might be some 59 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:43,920 fundamental limitation or something that stops this idea from working and stops all related 60 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:51,280 ideas from working. But the benefit is that Bitcoin has this ability to reclaim the 61 00:05:51,280 --> 00:05:56,960 permissionless innovation concept where you can just have two or three people and they can try 62 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:02,800 any idea that they want. It can be larger blocks. It can be ring signatures. It can be like Monero. 63 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:09,680 It can be like Zcash. It can be like a Namecoin. It can be a bit message. Doesn't technically 64 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:15,840 require but you could have something like that where so anyone or it could be any new idea that 65 00:06:15,840 --> 00:06:21,200 no one has thought of yet. So you can do any kind of weird thing. Rootstock guys are doing Ethereum. 66 00:06:21,840 --> 00:06:28,080 I think what I really argue a lot in Drivechain is that it's worth trying because the benefits 67 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:35,120 are so so large. It really solves basically every problem because well we can get into that but 68 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:41,520 it does mostly solve the problem of people who are angry at each other and fight spending a lot 69 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:46,800 of time fighting because now they're all free to do their own thing and the key issue is that these 70 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:52,480 are all separate pieces of software and they are separate computer networks. So they are as 71 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:57,520 autonomous as altcoins and they are people are free to do whatever they want with them. So that's 72 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:02,480 like kind of the pitch that's like kind of the hook that. Yeah yeah for me that that was the 73 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:07,840 most interesting thing about the whole Drivechains concept or sidechains in general is that 74 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:12,800 you could put whatever feature you want on the sidechain as long as you you can sort of get 75 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:18,880 it back and forth between the main chain and the sidechain. And you know you can almost all the 76 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:24,480 innovations in every altcoin you could probably do in a sidechain and all the future sort of 77 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:32,720 are thinking about like Mimblewimble for example or like Zcash or whatever. Any of those things 78 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:38,720 can essentially be sort of branches off of Bitcoin and you can you can sort of you know 79 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:45,920 bring all those tech technologies to Bitcoin and just make it work. And that to 80 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:50,880 me was the really exciting part and I remember during the scaling debate one of the things that 81 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:55,680 you proposed was hey why don't we just have one sidechain for SegWit, one sidechain for 82 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:02,640 BigBlocks and then we'd be done with the debate. That was a really great idea and it was 83 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:08,320 very unfortunate that that didn't get more traction. Why do you think that that didn't 84 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:12,400 like sort of go forward? Because that seems like such a great way to like resolve this. 85 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:18,080 Yeah that's a great point. So like for those people who aren't familiar, I mean SegWit is 86 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:22,880 great. The idea of SegWit is great and the implementation is like a tour de force of just 87 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:31,440 like very careful computer science but it did change just about everything about Bitcoin. 88 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:38,000 It changes so many things. I was describing to a friend I was like it's like someone has like a 89 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:43,520 disease or something and instead of giving them better nutrition or giving them like a shot or 90 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:49,360 something, you change their genetic code around so that they become Siamese twins and then there's 91 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:53,680 like there's like two of them. They have like the same head but they have two different bodies and 92 00:08:53,680 --> 00:08:59,200 then the second body is like has a different thing and then you have all this stuff so that they can 93 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:03,920 share blood and everything and I was like yeah it's really messed up. But yeah it's like a weekend 94 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:10,480 project to just do segregated witness if you don't need it to be a soft fork which all the 95 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:16,000 sidechains are basically hard forks because they're pseudo hard forks. It's a soft fork 96 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,400 literally in Bitcoin but you have the flexibility to do whatever you like on the sidechain including 97 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:27,040 just screw it, blow it up completely. So there you just change the signature, you know the thing 98 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,400 that generates the transaction ID so that it doesn't cover any malleable fields and you're 99 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:35,440 finished. But that we still it's interesting because people want a special version of lightning 100 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:40,320 so you probably still have to do that on the main chain and so that would still be you still have to 101 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:46,720 go through that giant slog but yeah I don't know the idea of why didn't that idea, the idea of 102 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:55,120 just the scaling sidechain get more attraction is a very interesting question. You know it's 103 00:09:55,120 --> 00:10:01,520 hard to answer because I think it was the best idea and I think it was maybe just 104 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:07,680 and it's almost just too good I think it sounds crazy to say but I think you know you know how it 105 00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:12,000 was at the time I don't know if you were in Milan but there was like I don't remember if you were I 106 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:16,640 don't think you were. I wasn't in Milan. But you know like there's a lot of tension there's a lot 107 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:25,840 of unhappiness people were walking out the first day there was these kind of like you know I just 108 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:30,880 think people kind of had themselves in their little camps and the other thing is it wasn't really it 109 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:35,440 was just kind of an idea no one really likes the ideas guy right even though they kind of should 110 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:41,920 and in blockchain in generally and you know in Bitcoin they should like the ideas guy because 111 00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:50,960 you have to normally the ideas guy has no value add but in this case you have something where 112 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:58,000 the software has to be right for like a hundred years and you know or whatever and it's going to 113 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:03,280 be correct for a long long time and you don't really get a you know the stakes are kind of 114 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:07,520 high for screwing it up so you really shouldn't the ideas guy should get more respect but I guess 115 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:13,520 I was only merely the ideas guy in the there was well I mean you also made an implementation 116 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:20,560 like it's it was mostly ready well you know how software is it's like you're mostly ready but 117 00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:24,480 not quite you know it's always it's like you get to like 90 percent and then the last 10 percent 118 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:32,720 says 500 years or something so and so that was kind of but yeah I don't know um well I mean 119 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:38,560 do you think that like time to market was like a major factor because uh there was this sort of 120 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,120 almost an artificial sense of urgency around the scaling debate that 121 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:49,600 or like well we need to get it done now and you know we can't wait for you know better solutions 122 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:55,760 and I don't know it seemed like people that looked at Drivechains thought that it was a 123 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:01,840 superior technical solution it's just that they thought it would settle I mean I'll settle for 124 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:06,400 like worth trying because that's kind of a difference in my point of view is like you know 125 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:11,600 like kind of like a cost benefit like is this where I mean I guess Milan people were really 126 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:16,240 SegWit still wasn't finished because remember there was the hackathon right afterwards to kind 127 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:21,840 of ship it and then that would immediately transition to the drama over SegWit activation 128 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:28,080 because people left Milan to go block to go run Bitcoin Unlimited and block SegWit activation so 129 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:35,040 that was the start of that whole slog um and yeah I don't know I mean I think it's a really good 130 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:40,400 question uh there are you know people were excited about SegWit and they were then excited 131 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:46,720 about Schnorr and I think people like there's a I'm going to suggest that there's a bias towards 132 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:53,200 these things that are kind of more uh cryptography based and kind of equation based and people just 133 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:59,840 like that's very safe and it kind of was becoming a design by committee at that point and people 134 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:05,440 like sort of safe things and this is much more of a this is much more of like a kind of a crazy 135 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:10,960 chance like if if we did create a large block sidechain there would be new aspects to the 136 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:15,920 Bitcoin experiment if you were on it so they would you would have to start telling people again 137 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:20,640 you have to start telling them well this is an experimental piece of technology we don't know 138 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:25,440 what could happen there could be a bug there could be a whatever there you know uh and so 139 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:32,000 that was an idea I mean I was also getting feedback at Milan and people were saying that 140 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:39,600 I should address this super obscure minor centralization vague point that uh so I was 141 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:45,600 interested in doing that and I did work on that as part of the peer review process kind of I kind 142 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,440 of regret that though because I think it delayed I think it wasn't worth the delay because just 143 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:55,120 think of all the damage that has been done in the last couple of months and now we have a terrible 144 00:13:55,120 --> 00:14:03,280 situation where we have um the uh the Bitcoin cash uh spinoff and so now we have people who are 145 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:08,240 actually selling one coin and going to the other and now those people it's the camps are getting 146 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:13,760 even further and further entrenched which kind of makes a it's I guess it's like running third party 147 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:18,560 right like you have the best ideas and but you have no people don't want the best ideas they want 148 00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:25,360 their party to win and I think that unfortunately some of that has uh seeped in I think it's clear 149 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:32,240 to anyone who pays attention on the major media uh sites that there's a very strong interest in 150 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:37,840 just publishing anything that bashes the other side versus stuff that has I mean is there any 151 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:43,360 actual continuity even on our Bitcoin like our BTC has always been like notoriously like just 152 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:48,160 like kind of like a cringe fest or just crazy people but even now our Bitcoin there's rarely 153 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:53,520 any actual content other than the price memes which are like their own form of junk food or 154 00:14:53,520 --> 00:15:01,120 something you know they're like now so I I don't know yeah I think uh another thing it's possible 155 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:07,600 that it kind of the existence of a a non-Blockstream sidechain thing might have made people 156 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:12,160 feel awkward even though Adam Back was always very supportive of it so I don't I kind of don't think 157 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:16,880 that that's the explanation but I suppose it's possible. Between Adam Back and Luke Dashjr. 158 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:22,480 I mean yeah you got right yeah we had Luke Dash associated with Blockstream and we had the um 159 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:29,440 and he yeah Luke Jr.'s post was sticky by Famos on our Bitcoin for like two weeks or something 160 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:34,800 and so I thought so I think there is actually a a lot of support people a part of it is I think 161 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:41,360 maybe just that the idea was still being you know I was still finishing it and you know how it is 162 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:45,600 like you making these changes and it's all in flux and then if you're not the guy who's on top of 163 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:51,600 that like basically if you're not me or Cryptex Patrick then you wouldn't you wouldn't like even 164 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,800 know like what you were actually talking about like what you were even endorsing because you 165 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,880 know where it's kind of like wet concrete which is uh you know that's kind of a shame 166 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:05,680 you know the concrete would have dried faster if more people had helped and it's still not you 167 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:10,880 know it's still not totally finished and your one approach to that is to say well I'll come back 168 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:16,640 when it's finished but another approach is to just jump in and and finish it you know like you 169 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:23,200 can help finish it uh so that's kind of are you looking for developers still to help you 170 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:29,840 I think it's great if anyone can go can you just read the BIP documents which you were kind enough 171 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:37,840 to point out like last week or whatever it was or no not last week um on Sunday I'm losing track 172 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:43,680 of time sorry one day is a in Bitcoin one day is like a week right it's yeah absolutely that's just 173 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:51,920 how um yeah yeah it's uh it's absolutely fascinating to me and uh and like uh you you've 174 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:58,400 gotten a little bit of feedback so far I guess we can yes yeah a little bit of the technical 175 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:03,360 a little bit um so do you want to just sort of briefly describe the hardest part which is sort 176 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:08,240 of bringing back biggest points from the sidechain back to the main chain okay that is really 177 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:14,160 important so that is why I actually I specifically renamed the first BIP and I called it hash rate 178 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:19,360 escrows because I didn't want there to be any confusion or like I wanted to be totally transparent 179 00:17:19,360 --> 00:17:24,640 about what this is which is that you're locking the money to an SPV proof when you use sidechains 180 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:30,240 and that has always been the sidechain story and that that must be the sidechain story so let me 181 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:35,200 just unpack that for a little bit so what I mean by the SPV proof is that you're only checking to 182 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:39,440 see if it's part of the heaviest chain you don't check to see if it's part of the heaviest valid 183 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:46,000 chain you have no idea what the chain what is in the chain and let alone whether or not 100 184 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,400 of the chain's contents are valid which is what the definition is for the heaviest valid chain 185 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:57,200 so SPV mode just checks to see that there's been a lot of work done do you are maybe the heaviest 186 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:01,600 you know you never of course epistemically you never know if you're actually on the heaviest 187 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:06,960 chain or not but we we have strong guarantees that you are and stuff like that like the size 188 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:12,400 of the planet earth is only so large and you can only suppress the information for so long and 10 189 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:19,520 minute block intervals and other things so uh so there is no way either you would you want to avoid 190 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:25,360 is that you don't want to burden bitcoin core with all this other junk so you don't want it to be 191 00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:29,520 regress and become an extension block so maybe this conversation will get a little confusing but 192 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:34,640 the point is the point is you actually want to send the transactions in a place where you can 193 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,560 ignore what's going on there because that is the entire point and i think this is often 194 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:42,800 misunderstood so i'm glad that you're asking about it because the whole point is that you kind of 195 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:48,400 in quotes reduce the security because that is the entire point you're not you don't want to 196 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:54,080 you it's all about what you gain in return you don't look you don't have to look into all of 197 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:59,040 that stuff and check all of it within the sidechain you're talking about you don't have to check 198 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,960 anything within the sidechain you just sort of we want to make like two people happy we want to 199 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:07,920 make like luke jr happy and we want to make like roger veer happy so maybe that can like that maybe 200 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:13,120 that can like help figure it out what does luke jr wants nice and small blocks that are easy to 201 00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:18,800 validate right he doesn't want to do a lot of work you know not proof of work work but he doesn't 202 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:24,560 want to do a lot of checksig operations and bandwidth of a transaction data and everything 203 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:30,800 like that so the the sidechain has to be kind of optional or it has to be a kind of giant anyone 204 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:36,560 can pay situation where there's a lot of degrees of freedom this money could go to a could go to 205 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:42,400 b could go to c you don't know and you you don't care if you're the luke jr type so if you're the 206 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:47,280 conservative type you don't care you just want your little thing locked down and you don't want 207 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,360 a lot of you don't want to you don't want so that's the point is that you're just kind of 208 00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:58,000 going to you're going to just you're not going to have the node check all that stuff so as a result 209 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:04,480 the only thing you have the only weapon you have is spb level security which is pretty strong 210 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:09,280 security but we're going to like you know push the boundaries so it is experimental and it could 211 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:14,720 the idea could not work but the point is that this spb level security is checking the heaviest 212 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,400 chain it's not checking the heaviest valid chain because it has no idea what's in the chain 213 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:28,880 by definition so what you are trying to accomplish is merely that so this reduction in knowledge is 214 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:34,320 intentional so that's what i'm trying to say is what you are doing is putting this money such that 215 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,960 the miner can send it anywhere and that's why i named it hashrate escrow so that's what i was 216 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:45,520 getting at with that i see so the miner puts it somewhere that they they just don't really care 217 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:51,840 what happens during the time that it's escrowed but when it comes back how does it come back yes 218 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,840 so this is the challenge so since you're doing you have you have a you have like a big challenge 219 00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:00,240 because now the miners can send the money anywhere so someone's going to ask well why wouldn't the 220 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,960 miners just send the money immediately to like jihandu's personal bank account right like that's 221 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:11,680 where you would presume it would be sent in a sort of naive sense and so what you have to do is you 222 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:19,120 want to really make the uh you the what you want to do is okay so i'll just explain literally what 223 00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:22,800 i what happens in Drivechain without talking about like kind of the there's a giant like 224 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:29,120 philosophy behind this but in practice what i do is i have all the the transactions wait so the 225 00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:34,480 transactions are very slow come back and they all get batched up it's kind of like an airplane so 226 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:40,400 if the if each network was an island and you're on the sidechain island and you're on like you 227 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,560 know rootstock island or something and you want to send your you got bitcoin there and you want 228 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:49,440 them to go back to being bitcoin core bitcoin then you tell them that they want to leave and 229 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:56,400 they sort of show up at the airport and rootstock airport and then they all wait in a big um in a 230 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:04,240 big group and then an airplane comes and picks them up and very slowly taxis them back over to 231 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:10,240 bitcoin core island and so the point is they come back very slow excuse me they come back very slow 232 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:16,800 and we announce in advance exactly where the money is going so it's very easy to check the 233 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:22,880 the sidechain software will sort of report exactly what it should what should be what the 234 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:30,480 transaction going back should look like and the um there's a commitment that the miners sort of 235 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:36,000 use yes there's a so there's like yeah it was like the hash commitment to the transaction 236 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,720 on the sidechain so it's very easy for human beings to check and see what that is and then 237 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:48,080 there's the hash commitment is uh introduced on the main chain on bitcoin core and so then 238 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,320 there's a long waiting period which i would imagine is going to be a minimum of two weeks 239 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:59,120 and then there's a very long period where we acknowledge do they do they match or do they not 240 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,360 match and there's like a little upvote downvote count and once per block 241 00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:08,400 they increment this count up or down and if the count reaches a certain threshold 242 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:14,960 then that transaction is considered valid and otherwise it's not considered valid so it's a it's 243 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:19,520 a minor vote is what you're saying to come back well see that's what i'm saying is the spd proof 244 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:24,880 is also a minor vote so this is kind of acknowledging that so a lot of people feel very 245 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:31,120 uncomfortable with this but uh i think they they really should not because there's a long precedent 246 00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:39,120 of related events happening that were fixed much so we had a there was one uh instance where we 247 00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:44,960 accidentally printed like 92 billion bitcoins or something negative overflow or something like that 248 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:51,600 yes exactly there was a an overflow and uh that was fixed within like five hours and then there 249 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:57,760 was the march 2013 event that was deals like these are total emergencies that were unexpected 250 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:04,480 and they were easily fixed uh that was fixed in like 20 blocks or something like like like two 251 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:12,320 hours or something like that uh and so we have a lot of precedent for um when something's obviously 252 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:19,920 wrong it uh it gets fixed and Drivechain does not like and there's a sign there's a small sense in 253 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:24,720 which that dry chain fundamentally relies on something like that or something like the user 254 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:31,120 activated soft fork where there's some push will come to shove and they will if the miners really 255 00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:36,800 want they will like fork the chain by doing in a fraudulent withdrawal and then they'll fight it 256 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,640 out there'll be two chains and they'll fight it out in the marketplace or something like that 257 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:47,840 so that's kind of the that's kind of the seed or like the foundation but in reality i think it would 258 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:53,440 never get it's sort of like a supreme court that the user activated soft fork idea or the the fixing 259 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:58,000 of the bug idea the march 2013 that's kind of like the supreme court that's like if there's this big 260 00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,200 big big dispute 261 00:24:59,504 --> 00:25:26,504 that's going ongoing for the whole month in multiple like months and then it reaches this uh this this place then that will get the final say but in practice most people follow the law or comply with the laws without you know needing to arbitrate every single you know everyone has people have all these yeah yeah people people settle their differences before it gets to court yeah so that's another thing is that there are these atomic no one actually has to use 262 00:25:26,744 --> 00:25:31,704 any of the mechanisms for shepherding the coins in between chains because they have atomic swaps 263 00:25:31,704 --> 00:25:38,344 which are basically like a kind of shape shift type thing which work instantaneously so you would need 264 00:25:38,344 --> 00:25:42,984 lightning yeah the speed is not yeah well the atomic swaps are even different than lightning so 265 00:25:42,984 --> 00:25:48,984 you can do the atomic swaps and you can do uh like you can do lightning through the sidechain 266 00:25:48,984 --> 00:25:55,064 or you can do an atomic swap transaction on chain atomic swap yes you can do an on-chain atomic swap 267 00:25:55,064 --> 00:26:03,224 yes so without in that sense you would trade your rootstock bitcoin to someone else you if you like 268 00:26:03,224 --> 00:26:08,904 you uh if you and i would be on you you would exist on the rootstock island and the bitcoin 269 00:26:08,904 --> 00:26:16,104 core island and i would as well and so i would give you a you know i'd give you say uh one bitcoin 270 00:26:16,104 --> 00:26:22,104 on rootstock island and then you would give me 0.99 bitcoin on bitcoin core island we'd do that 271 00:26:22,104 --> 00:26:27,224 at the same time and that does not require any weird Drivechain stuff like that so what i'm 272 00:26:27,224 --> 00:26:32,504 trying to say is although the problem is big and although it's solved in kind of a crazy way 273 00:26:33,144 --> 00:26:39,224 it's what you what i've done is i've kind of like lined all these things up so that it's actually 274 00:26:39,224 --> 00:26:44,424 really really difficult in practice to imagine yeah but it's not possible it's not impossible 275 00:26:44,424 --> 00:26:49,224 and so people should be aware aware of the the risks um but as i was saying before you should 276 00:26:49,224 --> 00:26:52,984 also be aware of the benefits because the benefits are very extreme so here's the thing is 277 00:26:52,984 --> 00:26:59,224 if push comes to shove so like let me explain one more thing is that the rules for Drivechain 278 00:26:59,224 --> 00:27:04,584 carefully limit like it's it's supposed to be very light on attention how much attention the 279 00:27:04,584 --> 00:27:09,784 user is required so that's part of this two-week waiting period where the software everyone running 280 00:27:09,784 --> 00:27:15,304 a sidechain node will know immediately the instant that they don't match so you'll know immediately 281 00:27:15,304 --> 00:27:19,384 but i say there's a two whether it's valid or invalid or whatever it is there's a two-week 282 00:27:19,384 --> 00:27:24,024 waiting period so all this stuff that i was just described was fixed as in a sort of an emergency 283 00:27:24,024 --> 00:27:29,304 thing by volunteers within like a few hours but this is something where so this we don't want to 284 00:27:29,304 --> 00:27:33,224 we don't want to tax that because we don't want to just try to exploit that and drive that resource 285 00:27:33,224 --> 00:27:38,744 to its limit that's very unfair but i've thrown all these these kind of like these hurdles in for 286 00:27:38,744 --> 00:27:44,184 the attacker where they've got to wait like two weeks where it's just like x is saying equaling 287 00:27:44,184 --> 00:27:48,024 y but they just don't they just aren't equal you know and there's just nothing they can do about 288 00:27:48,584 --> 00:27:54,584 how wrong it looks and then you have this long period where miners can either upvote or downvote 289 00:27:54,584 --> 00:27:58,984 so at a certain point you'd say why are miners uploading because it's wrong but then after you 290 00:27:58,984 --> 00:28:04,104 know another couple of days and we know how long a day is in bitcoin it's a week of pre-bitcoin 291 00:28:04,104 --> 00:28:09,384 lifetime it's you wonder like why aren't they why aren't other miners just downvoting you know 292 00:28:09,384 --> 00:28:12,984 because you could it's very easy for miners to just sort of downvote everything and say i don't 293 00:28:12,984 --> 00:28:17,144 know what's going on but let's delay this until we figure it out so they can easily delay and the 294 00:28:17,144 --> 00:28:22,184 delay is always advantageous to the honest party because it gives everyone more time to figure out 295 00:28:22,184 --> 00:28:26,984 yeah yeah i think essentially what you're doing is you've aligned all of the incentives so that 296 00:28:26,984 --> 00:28:32,504 there's social pressure put on the bad actors in this sort of scenario yeah you're right that is 297 00:28:32,504 --> 00:28:37,304 and i think that is very important that there's kind of a sort of a stigma or a shame of just like 298 00:28:37,304 --> 00:28:41,304 the miners is doing something that's so obviously wrong but it's financial pressure as well as 299 00:28:41,304 --> 00:28:47,304 social because if push comes to shove and they actually do a fraudulent withdrawal and the side 300 00:28:47,304 --> 00:28:51,624 chain is sort of like a healthy sidechain that people like and so if we have the actual bad 301 00:28:51,624 --> 00:28:55,624 event happen where people were actually using the sidechain they put a bunch of significant amount 302 00:28:55,624 --> 00:29:00,504 of money over there miners withdrew the money for themselves one thing is that it's just as easy for 303 00:29:00,504 --> 00:29:05,304 them to miners to steal all of the money as it is for them to steal any amount of money so that kind 304 00:29:05,304 --> 00:29:11,224 of makes the very act itself less forgivable and more threatening and more kind of crazy so that's 305 00:29:11,224 --> 00:29:17,624 intentional as well but the financial pressure is that the uh the market price of bitcoin would 306 00:29:17,624 --> 00:29:23,944 i think have to fall because what it would mean the end of not only that sidechain and not only 307 00:29:23,944 --> 00:29:29,784 all the fees on that sidechain but i think it means the end of the sidechain experiment because 308 00:29:29,784 --> 00:29:34,344 it means that this model doesn't really work and so what it means is that but i think if this model 309 00:29:34,344 --> 00:29:38,904 doesn't work i think really no model can work because as i tried to explain you are you are 310 00:29:38,904 --> 00:29:43,304 kind of trapped because it's intentionally you cannot intentionally you are not allowed to have 311 00:29:43,304 --> 00:29:49,944 bitcoin core check the sidechains rules which is the design challenge so if that doesn't so if they 312 00:29:49,944 --> 00:29:54,984 steal once it kind of breaks the whole thing which means all the sidechains features which users 313 00:29:54,984 --> 00:29:59,864 might like and all future sidechains which might have great features that might be invented in the 314 00:29:59,864 --> 00:30:06,344 future um that might not you know all that is destroyed and all the transaction fee revenue 315 00:30:06,344 --> 00:30:13,464 on the all those chains is destroyed and i think that that is um you know that i think that would 316 00:30:13,464 --> 00:30:20,664 merit uh not a great response especially given the fact that if push came to shove users could 317 00:30:21,224 --> 00:30:27,064 user activated soft fork to block to block the fraudulent transfer at which point they would 318 00:30:27,064 --> 00:30:30,984 basically split the network in two one where everything was honest and where something was 319 00:30:30,984 --> 00:30:37,144 dishonest so i think that would be just i mean how can the honest business person 320 00:30:38,024 --> 00:30:43,544 lose a fight against the dishonest i think you have to i think we already know that the bitcoin 321 00:30:43,544 --> 00:30:48,424 security model requires 51 of the miners to be honest i think you're just sort of extending that 322 00:30:48,424 --> 00:30:54,264 and sort of uh uh you know sort of taking that to a further limit than maybe it currently is in 323 00:30:54,264 --> 00:30:58,904 bitcoin exactly that is exactly what i'm doing it is riskier and people should be aware of that 324 00:30:58,904 --> 00:31:06,664 but i'm trying to i'm drawing on these experiences that we have had times where you know we have the 325 00:31:06,664 --> 00:31:13,384 value overflow incident and it was you know we have there is it's not as though it's not really 326 00:31:13,384 --> 00:31:20,584 the case that that people just roll over and just let the miners just take the money out of the 327 00:31:20,584 --> 00:31:25,864 chain and the mere threat that users might do something about it is really enough to say in 328 00:31:26,264 --> 00:31:31,384 the supreme court type model yeah yeah and and this is why like selfish mining and a lot of 329 00:31:31,384 --> 00:31:37,064 other theoretical attacks have never been on the network is because users would get really angry 330 00:31:37,064 --> 00:31:41,784 and they would it would just bring some action all it would do yeah selfish mining is a very 331 00:31:41,784 --> 00:31:48,504 interesting property where it uh if if if it really is better than every miner has an incentive to do 332 00:31:48,504 --> 00:31:53,304 it and if every miner has an incentive to do it yeah it's stuff just breaks horribly you know 333 00:31:53,304 --> 00:31:56,824 what you would have is you'd have like no one officially finding a block right because no one 334 00:31:56,824 --> 00:32:02,504 announces yeah no one announces so there would never be a block announced and then some naive 335 00:32:02,504 --> 00:32:05,784 idiot like four hours later would announce a block and then all of a sudden there would be like 336 00:32:06,344 --> 00:32:10,344 you know eight different like 40 block chains that would all be announced or something like 337 00:32:10,344 --> 00:32:16,824 that and then yeah as you can see but if everyone does selfish mining there's no gain because it's 338 00:32:16,824 --> 00:32:23,304 a relative it's a relative advantage i mean it's mutually assured destruction um this minor 339 00:32:23,304 --> 00:32:27,144 strategies all cancel each other out constantly i mean it's very difficult because if everyone 340 00:32:27,144 --> 00:32:32,184 does them they just cancel out so as you say well as i'm saying there's no benefit but as you say 341 00:32:32,184 --> 00:32:38,504 the cost is that it just just screws up the network and so it's not that's a big reason why 342 00:32:38,504 --> 00:32:43,624 we it just takes effort to put that thing in and it doesn't it just wrecks everything so it's not 343 00:32:43,624 --> 00:32:48,184 surprising that we see this but yeah you understand i think you get it perfectly which is 344 00:32:48,184 --> 00:32:55,144 that i am kind of like you know i'm kind of taking that as an established scientific fact about an 345 00:32:55,144 --> 00:32:59,784 empirical fact whereas before i was just kind of like oh isn't that maybe this will work maybe not 346 00:32:59,784 --> 00:33:05,304 but yeah i think it's been proven over the last eight years uh all right so let's move on to the 347 00:33:05,304 --> 00:33:11,144 actual um mechanisms uh so we we talked a little bit about hashrate escrow and i think uh i think 348 00:33:11,144 --> 00:33:17,464 we've more or less described it there the funds go into sort of like a minor escrow and uh they 349 00:33:17,464 --> 00:33:23,064 can come back uh and the miners sort of have to vote on it but that mechanism doesn't necessarily 350 00:33:23,064 --> 00:33:27,624 have to get used very much it's kind of like an etf uh you know where you have a basket of 351 00:33:27,624 --> 00:33:32,824 currencies or something like that there there are are people that will arbitrage and sort of 352 00:33:32,824 --> 00:33:39,384 uh keep the price this very similar uh but you know that's not the main way in which people get 353 00:33:39,384 --> 00:33:44,664 in and out of it you you said something about atomic swaps and maybe lightning even um what's 354 00:33:44,664 --> 00:33:50,904 this other one this Blind Merged Mining that that's the bit that um i'm still trying to wrap my head 355 00:33:50,904 --> 00:33:57,144 around can you describe it for our uh viewers okay so i think it's easier if we let's like 356 00:33:57,144 --> 00:34:03,384 hashrate escrow is basically say it's an account where you put these timing parameters in and as 357 00:34:03,384 --> 00:34:08,984 long as users can very easily you know check these hashes as we just described miners can send the 358 00:34:08,984 --> 00:34:15,224 money anywhere and that introduces the infinite flexibility required for sidechains and so then 359 00:34:15,224 --> 00:34:20,024 what you want is see it's kind of it's an interesting timing thing too as well this is a 360 00:34:20,024 --> 00:34:25,544 very simple principles that are that are not kind of cryptographic at all but it's kind of like 361 00:34:25,544 --> 00:34:30,024 you create a weird sidechain a weird hashrate escrow and then and then after you create it you 362 00:34:30,024 --> 00:34:34,904 have to convince people to use it so it sounds kind of crazy to say oh are people really going 363 00:34:34,904 --> 00:34:39,944 to put this their money in an account that said that says the miners can send it anywhere and my 364 00:34:39,944 --> 00:34:45,704 answer that is you know they probably won't unless the you know you got to convince people that okay 365 00:34:45,704 --> 00:34:51,704 here's my you know my narrow sidechain and it will be very easy for you to check what's going 366 00:34:51,704 --> 00:34:57,384 on here and that is part of the thing so it's kind of neat because that part but what i'm saying with 367 00:34:57,384 --> 00:35:01,944 hashrate escrows you have a lot of flexibility so you can do whatever you weird ripple stuff 368 00:35:01,944 --> 00:35:06,824 you know even r3 corda you can do literally anything there you could do proof of stake you 369 00:35:06,824 --> 00:35:12,184 could do proof of space and time which is bram cohen's you can do whatever weird thing you're 370 00:35:12,184 --> 00:35:15,944 right because you as you understand i'm just putting money in a box and then opening the 371 00:35:15,944 --> 00:35:22,664 box and sending it somewhere else so that is lots and lots of flexibility but the other thing is that 372 00:35:22,664 --> 00:35:26,584 what we really want is we want something like Namecoin which has merge mining and so what i 373 00:35:26,584 --> 00:35:32,264 did is i i kind of optimized the merge mining idea to work with Drivechain the best and in so 374 00:35:32,264 --> 00:35:39,064 doing i solved uh two kind of remaining quirky problems with original merge mining 375 00:35:40,104 --> 00:35:45,544 you know first is that with merge mining so i merge mining is very difficult i think to explain 376 00:35:45,544 --> 00:35:50,904 i think lots of really smart people like have no idea how it works uh and so i have like let's 377 00:35:50,904 --> 00:35:56,024 you put a hash commitment into the coinbase before you mine the bitcoin block or something like that 378 00:35:56,104 --> 00:36:05,144 yes so it's yeah uh it is it's what is the weird thing is you set up the your software so that it 379 00:36:05,944 --> 00:36:12,424 hashes a see that i'm not now i'm gonna screw up the explanation because i'm dooming everyone but 380 00:36:12,424 --> 00:36:17,864 basically what you do is you set it up so that what you actually are doing is mining a Namecoin 381 00:36:17,864 --> 00:36:24,184 block uh and then the Namecoin block looks really weird but when you find the 382 00:36:25,784 --> 00:36:29,704 see you you you're trying to mine a Namecoin block and you're often you're succeeding because 383 00:36:29,704 --> 00:36:35,224 Namecoin's difficulty is lower but when you but sometimes you succeed and you actually 384 00:36:35,224 --> 00:36:40,824 mine something that it hits Namecoin's difficulty target as well as bitcoins so 385 00:36:41,624 --> 00:36:44,264 what you've done is you've set up something that's a Namecoin block but 386 00:36:44,984 --> 00:36:50,664 inside of the Namecoin block is a bitcoin block so you ended up mining both at the same time so 387 00:36:50,664 --> 00:36:58,024 it's very kind of weird uh it's but the point is just that what you have is a second network 388 00:36:58,584 --> 00:37:07,144 and what that network does is it says that it it can say uh it can it can download so bitcoin 389 00:37:07,144 --> 00:37:11,224 and the blockchains they have these headers and there's other block data that has everything 390 00:37:11,224 --> 00:37:14,424 important that's happening but then there's all these headers and that's how we check 391 00:37:14,424 --> 00:37:19,304 to make sure that the enough work has been done you only need to check the headers and 392 00:37:19,304 --> 00:37:24,904 they're only like four megabytes a year and that is the magic of spv for people who are into that 393 00:37:25,544 --> 00:37:30,264 which is increasingly fewer and fewer people but be that that's not really relevant to what 394 00:37:30,264 --> 00:37:35,464 i'm saying all i'm saying is in order bitcoin is very clever about the way it works where it just 395 00:37:35,464 --> 00:37:40,344 checks a small amount of data for the work puts all the work on this easy to check part and then 396 00:37:40,344 --> 00:37:45,544 we have all these big blocks that have all the that are the one megabyte blocks and so what 397 00:37:45,544 --> 00:37:51,784 merge mining does is it lets you kind of draw a weird line that is like sometimes Namecoin only 398 00:37:51,784 --> 00:37:56,904 headers and sometimes weird bitcoin headers that are it kind of lets you feel like a weird tangle 399 00:37:56,904 --> 00:38:02,424 so maybe i should just give up on explaining it because it is notorious and basically what's the 400 00:38:02,424 --> 00:38:11,944 miners do is mine two different networks at once yeah at no cost to them uh and so for a long time 401 00:38:11,944 --> 00:38:17,064 Namecoin had a large percentage i don't know 80 and at one point it fell to like 55 for multiple 402 00:38:17,064 --> 00:38:24,504 years a 55 of bitcoin's hash rate and something funny very funny happened recently that i will 403 00:38:24,504 --> 00:38:31,784 talk about that right after this but uh it had 55 of bitcoin's hash rate despite the fact that 404 00:38:31,784 --> 00:38:36,984 there was something like i think it was a four orders of magnitude difference in the reward so 405 00:38:36,984 --> 00:38:43,064 if you mind bitcoin only you got like 30 000 per block or something and if you mind Namecoin 406 00:38:43,064 --> 00:38:51,784 you got like five dollars per block and they were both 10 minutes each and so you know 55 of the 407 00:38:51,784 --> 00:38:56,664 hash rate was going for both it said i want the 30 000 plus five you know even though it's a tiny 408 00:38:56,664 --> 00:39:01,624 tiny tiny little thing um which is very funny the real question though is why isn't it 100 409 00:39:02,584 --> 00:39:07,224 because it's a free five dollars and the answer is that first of all you get paid in Namecoin 410 00:39:08,104 --> 00:39:13,144 dollars you know you don't get paid in bitcoin so you got to exchange it so it's slightly 411 00:39:13,144 --> 00:39:17,304 inconvenient but the other problem is that you had to run the Namecoin full node because you 412 00:39:17,304 --> 00:39:21,384 had to assemble the block so you would know you would assemble the next valid block and so you 413 00:39:21,384 --> 00:39:27,544 had to know what what block you were making and the Namecoin uh software was just you know no 414 00:39:27,544 --> 00:39:32,904 offense to anyone and everyone is doing a great job but it just wasn't as maintained as much as 415 00:39:32,904 --> 00:39:37,144 bitcoin core so it would crash and then when it crashed the entire mining operation went down so 416 00:39:37,144 --> 00:39:42,744 it actually wasn't free the mining operation would go down when Namecoin crashed so some people 417 00:39:42,744 --> 00:39:47,384 weren't up for that but other people had clever things where they could make it so that if it 418 00:39:47,384 --> 00:39:52,584 crashed it wouldn't like you know destroy it like they had different instances or something 419 00:39:52,584 --> 00:39:58,664 so they had a way of like clicking it over or something else but um so what blind merge mining 420 00:39:58,664 --> 00:40:05,864 does is it says that actually uh nodes sidechain nodes will assemble the block and pay themselves 421 00:40:05,864 --> 00:40:11,304 the sidechain fees and then what they will do is if they happen to be someone and i imagine this 422 00:40:11,304 --> 00:40:16,904 would be everyone but if they happen to be someone who runs the sidechain node and owns funds on the 423 00:40:16,904 --> 00:40:22,664 main chain bitcoin core so they are on whatever island running a node because they want to use 424 00:40:22,664 --> 00:40:28,904 that feature and they also exist on bitcoin core because the vision for Drivechain is very 425 00:40:28,904 --> 00:40:34,264 asymmetric one and a very hierarchical one so it's that where core is kind of literally the center 426 00:40:34,264 --> 00:40:38,664 and then pyramid in those sidechains and then maybe those sidechains of sidechains possibly 427 00:40:39,784 --> 00:40:46,104 but the vision is really that core is the center and so this is a very robust assumption that 428 00:40:47,384 --> 00:40:53,464 whoever's running a sidechain node either does have or could easily have or just that 429 00:40:53,464 --> 00:40:59,624 two or three or four people who are running a sidechain node also have money on main chain 430 00:40:59,624 --> 00:41:08,664 bitcoin and so those people what they do is they just make a payment to they say i'll pay miners 431 00:41:09,224 --> 00:41:15,544 xyz if they find this block and so they find a block say it's a sidechain they find a block 432 00:41:15,544 --> 00:41:19,384 paying themselves 17 sidechain bitcoin or something like that and transaction fees 433 00:41:20,264 --> 00:41:25,864 so the sidechain block is a normal blockchain it's there's all these transaction fees up for grabs 434 00:41:25,864 --> 00:41:32,184 the sidechain nodes all assemble the blocks excuse me some of the blocks paying the 435 00:41:33,224 --> 00:41:37,624 these transaction fees to themselves which is exactly how mining works right now with all 436 00:41:37,624 --> 00:41:43,624 the miners assembling the blocks and paying the transaction fees to themselves and so the 437 00:41:43,624 --> 00:41:49,624 difference is that you the sidechain node obviously can't get the proof of work so what 438 00:41:49,624 --> 00:41:56,904 they do is they just buy it and so they say i'm paying myself 17 bitcoin if i if i find this block 439 00:41:57,704 --> 00:42:01,544 and so they make up on the main chain bitcoin they make a little payment that says okay 440 00:42:01,544 --> 00:42:10,664 i'll give you i'll give i'll give you mr miner 16.9 main chain bitcoin if and only if 441 00:42:11,224 --> 00:42:18,504 the next block that's on merge mines my thing merge mines my sidechain uh block so they can 442 00:42:18,504 --> 00:42:22,984 sort of are between the two a little bit and get the difference they should they should try 443 00:42:22,984 --> 00:42:26,504 you know it should be as long as there's more than one it should be very competitive where they 444 00:42:26,504 --> 00:42:33,064 should be kind of because you can only find one sidechain block per sidechain per mainchain block 445 00:42:33,064 --> 00:42:39,304 if that is not too much of a mouthful but long story short is that the miners don't have to do 446 00:42:39,304 --> 00:42:45,064 even less than they had to do before so now it's as if in this world you don't have to convert 447 00:42:45,064 --> 00:42:49,464 anything because you get paid directly in bitcoin coins and they don't even need to know anything 448 00:42:49,464 --> 00:42:56,344 about what's going on in the network yeah you know they don't have to really run the sidechain 449 00:42:56,344 --> 00:43:01,944 which is kind of a huge innovation right this was always the problem with merge mining was that 450 00:43:01,944 --> 00:43:09,064 you had to give up all this bandwidth to receive all of the transactions from the merge mine chain 451 00:43:09,624 --> 00:43:13,944 which now you don't have to do with uh Blind Merged Mining yes there was a fear that someone 452 00:43:13,944 --> 00:43:20,184 would create i keep finding funnier and funnier names for it i'm calling it like the espn 4k 453 00:43:20,824 --> 00:43:24,504 chain or something like that there's this risk that someone would i'm trying to think of like 454 00:43:24,504 --> 00:43:29,544 a funny thing because the the threat is someone comes up with a very a chain that has a lot of 455 00:43:29,544 --> 00:43:36,824 revenue but it's like horribly bandwidth intensive and so it's like leaking the location crypto 456 00:43:37,464 --> 00:43:42,264 crypto kitty sidechain yeah right that could be like crypto kitty or crypto rabbits or something 457 00:43:42,904 --> 00:43:48,104 run amok and they're everywhere they're breeding really fast yeah exactly it's exponential growth 458 00:43:48,104 --> 00:43:55,304 they know how long until the lake is half covered in rabbits that yeah yeah but you you've essentially 459 00:43:55,304 --> 00:44:00,104 made it so that uh you can merge mine without necessarily knowing that much about the chain 460 00:44:00,104 --> 00:44:06,184 which is uh very beneficial to the miner to merge mine because it's all upside very little downside 461 00:44:06,184 --> 00:44:10,824 as far as they're concerned because they right and the point is that it doesn't just it shouldn't 462 00:44:10,824 --> 00:44:17,624 disadvantage any smaller miner or anything like that because the miner even if the ideally all 463 00:44:17,624 --> 00:44:21,784 the miners would be connected to a pool and the pool would have you know just two or three or 464 00:44:21,784 --> 00:44:26,664 four connections to some sidechain nodes that would do this and then they get all the the 465 00:44:26,664 --> 00:44:30,904 revenues and they don't need to worry about any of this thing now there's that's obviously not 466 00:44:30,904 --> 00:44:37,784 free either but it's it is i argue that it's actually the exact same security model that we 467 00:44:37,784 --> 00:44:42,824 already have which is something that i just emailed matt corral about earlier today because he had 468 00:44:42,824 --> 00:44:50,504 some feedback about that the issue is that the real issue as i was talking with him about is that 469 00:44:50,504 --> 00:44:55,944 the sidechain doesn't have its own uh block subsidy so it's not printing any money so it 470 00:44:55,944 --> 00:45:00,984 doesn't have the 12.5 new bitcoins each block it just has zero each block right because otherwise 471 00:45:00,984 --> 00:45:06,504 you'd be inflating bitcoin exactly so that's that's a very desirable thing but again there's 472 00:45:06,504 --> 00:45:12,744 no free lunch in engineering and then you know economics so there's they what the what what is 473 00:45:12,744 --> 00:45:18,904 really kind of one area of uncertainty for sidechains is that they are in the world where 474 00:45:19,864 --> 00:45:26,104 we only have the transaction fees which is bitcoin's ultimate destination and now because 475 00:45:26,104 --> 00:45:30,744 the fees are so high we might actually get there a lot sooner than i thought because we're already 476 00:45:30,744 --> 00:45:36,024 i think didn't we have i think and maybe even you told me that there was one that was like 13.5 in 477 00:45:36,024 --> 00:45:41,464 fees and 12.5 which i was i would never have expected that that would happen it was during 478 00:45:41,464 --> 00:45:47,704 the spammy weekend when everyone was trying to get uh it was the bitcoin cash pump when i know but 479 00:45:48,104 --> 00:45:52,504 that you know that still that is very that's like that's i would never have thought that it would be 480 00:45:52,504 --> 00:45:59,064 because before though even the orders of magnitude were yeah like yeah just so vast it was such a big 481 00:45:59,064 --> 00:46:04,664 difference between 50 bitcoin and like zero fee and then 25 and like 0.05 total fees and then 482 00:46:04,664 --> 00:46:11,784 we were getting basically only one bitcoin per block fee rate for like most most of this year 483 00:46:12,664 --> 00:46:18,344 and for that to go from one just straight up another order of magnitude to to 13 it's like 484 00:46:18,344 --> 00:46:22,424 that was very surprising to me so but then we're already in a case where the fees are more important 485 00:46:22,424 --> 00:46:29,384 than but yeah but no one knows for sure what will happen when in bitcoin or anywhere else so 486 00:46:29,384 --> 00:46:34,504 another kind of fun thing is that you might as well do this uh sidechains experiment because 487 00:46:34,504 --> 00:46:39,784 we'll get to figure out like what things go wrong you know when you have that world but i don't think 488 00:46:39,784 --> 00:46:44,664 the blind merge my matt was uh anyone who's interested should read the bitcoin dev mailing 489 00:46:44,664 --> 00:46:51,144 lists both in general but also specifically i have the you know you can see today i replied to 490 00:46:51,144 --> 00:46:56,824 a matt corral who wrote about this and he has a he has like a concern and he frames it very well 491 00:46:57,544 --> 00:47:04,104 but what i try to unpack is that what he's concerned about is actually this world with 492 00:47:04,104 --> 00:47:09,224 no block subsidy he's not the Blind Merged Mining part isn't it makes it just makes it look 493 00:47:09,864 --> 00:47:12,904 different but that part is not the different part the different part is that 494 00:47:14,184 --> 00:47:17,304 we only have these little things so if someone wants to do a reorganization 495 00:47:18,184 --> 00:47:23,384 if someone owns five bitcoin on the sidechain and they send it to someone else and then they 496 00:47:23,384 --> 00:47:30,584 wait for six sidechain confirmations and then they want to rewrite it with seven the uh you 497 00:47:30,584 --> 00:47:36,984 know the opportunity cost of doing that or kind of the thrust of doing that will be proportional 498 00:47:36,984 --> 00:47:42,744 to what is the sum of the transaction fees over those seven blocks right right it'd be basically 499 00:47:43,464 --> 00:47:52,344 basically that figure more or less uh and if that if that figure is small then that you know is kind 500 00:47:52,344 --> 00:47:58,584 of concerning so i'm not sure although you know there there is kind of like we've been talking 501 00:47:58,584 --> 00:48:03,064 about the social cost of sort of like doing something sketchy on the network or something 502 00:48:03,064 --> 00:48:08,504 seen as an attack and there's a giant social cost to that because people stop trusting 503 00:48:09,224 --> 00:48:13,144 yeah i think you're right the problem is the problem is that Blind Merged Mining disables a lot 504 00:48:13,144 --> 00:48:18,264 of that because it just it's blind so you don't know like but in practice you can actually switch 505 00:48:18,264 --> 00:48:26,024 easily from regular merge mining to Blind Merged Mining so actually i would expect uh you know 506 00:48:26,024 --> 00:48:30,184 this is kind of now i'm really kind of just you know making stuff up right now it's like 507 00:48:30,184 --> 00:48:35,304 even worse than it ever was but what i would expect is that uh miners would just literally 508 00:48:35,304 --> 00:48:41,064 merge mine the chain at first to kind of get it out of the cradle because they'd say okay 509 00:48:41,064 --> 00:48:45,064 users might like this feature so we're going to make sure that it works because we're the miners 510 00:48:45,064 --> 00:48:51,144 and we we want the value bitcoin to go up we want this next transaction you know fee revenue or 511 00:48:51,144 --> 00:48:56,824 something like that and so they i think they would just be they would be the node that tells 512 00:48:56,824 --> 00:49:01,864 themselves you know what the next block is and it would be very different very very similar to 513 00:49:01,864 --> 00:49:10,104 Namecoin originally and then as the bandwidth stuff as the resource costs pick up they would 514 00:49:10,104 --> 00:49:15,784 gradually start outsourcing that maybe who knows or it might just be or it may just be another 515 00:49:15,784 --> 00:49:19,944 possibility i think i don't remember i think i didn't write that i was almost going to write 516 00:49:19,944 --> 00:49:24,904 this in the email to matt but i didn't i think another possibility is just that in the world 517 00:49:24,904 --> 00:49:30,584 without the block subsidy uh that is just a world where people need to wait for more confirmations 518 00:49:31,304 --> 00:49:36,344 sure and that's that that's a very reasonable position it might just take longer yeah yeah and 519 00:49:36,344 --> 00:49:41,464 which would be not great but it would uh see the other thing is like it would be not great but that 520 00:49:41,464 --> 00:49:48,424 would um you know if these are i think what i'm trying to get at is these are these these mysteries 521 00:49:48,424 --> 00:49:53,144 are not really central to sidechains they're actually central to um 522 00:49:53,360 --> 00:50:20,360 they're actually central to um how the block how a blockchain performs when it doesn't have a block subsidy or when the fees are low or something like that so they're it's kind of like they're different questions and we might as well like learn about them i mean you might because think about it if you need long more confirmations then it kind of re-emphasizes the lightning network for everything because then you just say okay super long custodial period with multiple custodians and then that is because that's kind of 523 00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:26,280 a you know binary like heavy side that's either like good enough or not good enough true false and 524 00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:30,760 so once you get that secure your sidechain security you have the lightning network secure then 525 00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:35,240 everything's instant and off-chain and private so maybe that's the way to go or maybe there'll be 526 00:50:35,240 --> 00:50:38,760 some problem with that and we should go somewhere else you know it's a complicated you had an 527 00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:43,960 interesting sort of thing with the Hivemind slash Truthcoin project which is that you you have sort 528 00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:49,000 of a native coin within the sidechain that's separate from the bitcoin so you could you could 529 00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:54,920 uh you could sort of incentivize miners that way all right but that's weird because my project is 530 00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:59,080 probably the only project that can that actually because i have that exists for a very important 531 00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:06,840 reason to manage a second separate digitally scarce thing that is not money but is actually 532 00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:12,920 the reputation of the people i need a way to punish the workers in the system if they don't 533 00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:19,080 behave so it's kind of like a sort of a very and we could might in a very abstract way describe as 534 00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:25,480 shares of a kind of kind of a i don't know what to say an abstract kind of corporation of some kind 535 00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:32,040 so sort of the what was it called the deck right but i mean isn't that concept sort of like 536 00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:38,360 extendable can't you um yeah well i can do that to mine like a separate sort of token and you have a 537 00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:44,200 token chain basically well i'm not sure that you could because you why would this second token have 538 00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:49,400 any value although it's i'm all you know obviously saying that in this world where we have loony 539 00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:59,320 altcoin world it's like why like i feel like yeah so that is kind of like um my commitment to science 540 00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:04,040 and empiricism is like you know laughing at that even though i like theoretically they should all 541 00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:10,280 have no value right but like of course you know what time is what it looks like or future 542 00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:16,360 expectation of future development time or something like that i do not know why but see mine in in uh 543 00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:21,960 Truthcoin or Hivemind that token does have a value which is driven by you know trading fees 544 00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:27,160 and other things and it's inescapably it is essential to the operation of the yeah it has 545 00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:31,800 monetary value so you could give it out as sort of a minor so that one you could give as a block 546 00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:38,520 subsidy uh and but i don't know how so because in that one value is coming from different people 547 00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:43,880 who are making trades in the prediction markets in those in those markets so so there's a there's an 548 00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:49,960 engine there's like a fuel source so then you could pay out some of that to miners but i don't 549 00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:55,560 know where you'd get this engine in uh something else like uh where would you get that in uh you 550 00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:59,240 could try to get it from the other participants but you see that's not a free lunch either because 551 00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:06,680 so you could say like we will uh you could do like a kind of weird demerge thing or something 552 00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:12,040 you understand like an inflation tax yeah yeah yeah i mean you i mean i think if you have a 553 00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:19,320 separate coin uh you that that argues very strongly for some some level of inflating of 554 00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:24,360 bitcoin so i think there would be a lot of resistance to something i agree that it's been 555 00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:30,200 said by a number of people i think one of the earliest is gavin andreason that adding just the 556 00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:35,400 mere existence of an altcoin is kind of cheating the 21 million coin limit because it is like an 557 00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:39,880 inflation tax it is a separate form of money that is a separate purchasing power it's a separate 558 00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:46,840 claim on all the assets of i that's that i mean bitcoin is bitcoin you're you're not printing any 559 00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:52,440 bitcoin on litecoin or anything else um all right so i i do want to get to some other stuff uh i 560 00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:58,680 mean there's there's certainly been a lot of talk about mimblewimble um as a sidechain uh and you 561 00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:05,000 know possibly using dry chains to make that work um what what are your thoughts around sort of 562 00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:10,520 mimblewimble maybe rootstock and all of these other projects that are sort of looking for some 563 00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:17,160 sort of sidechain tech to make their stuff run well i think mimblewimble is so weird that there's 564 00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:24,040 no way it has to be a sidechain of bitcoin or just an altcoin there's no way you can like so 565 00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:28,840 often people are talking about things like uh you know like you can um uh there's a lot of stuff can 566 00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:33,960 be done with like script versioning and people are always like oh can we work can we fit this 567 00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:39,080 this weird feature in you know people are really excited like oh can maybe we can soft fork it into 568 00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:44,360 bitcoin core my own pet little idea but mimblewimble i do not see that happening but you 569 00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:49,000 never know because andrew bolster has pulled so many rabbits out of so many hats at this point 570 00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:57,080 just crazy yeah yeah but then the other thing is the it is it is kind of confusing because 571 00:54:57,080 --> 00:55:03,320 mimblewimble is there's a it's just slight it's you know it's super cool but it's slightly the 572 00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:08,200 experts have discovered that aspects of it are a little disappointing so not me but i'm just 573 00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:15,240 repeating what i've been told which is that the the the privacy aspect isn't as great because an 574 00:55:15,240 --> 00:55:20,360 adversary will be watching the network everything and they'll log all this so the ability to combine 575 00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:24,840 them and hide them with each other won't really help because the ability what is it called the 576 00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:30,360 non-interactive combining that doesn't really matter because the adversary is going to watch 577 00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:34,040 everything so it's going to be as if it were interactive or something for them because 578 00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:39,880 they're just going to watch everything and then even the um the shrinking of the blockchain doesn't 579 00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:45,240 matter because in real time when you're trying to find the next block it's like at the frontier you 580 00:55:45,240 --> 00:55:50,120 have all the same bandwidth problems you have before so the main benefit is in helping people 581 00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:56,520 catch up and you can show them this thing that lets them it's also confidential right like more 582 00:55:56,520 --> 00:56:01,880 or less it's uh there's no addresses or amounts so yeah right the amounts are 583 00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:06,200 i don't want to you know it's not really my area of expertise but yeah that's my understanding is 584 00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:11,720 that it's much more um private which is great but i was just pointing out that this other benefit 585 00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:17,560 is also not great because the sidechain is already spv level security so you're already kind of 586 00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:25,480 just taking that the last six months are not wrong on faith or something a bit see bitcoin 587 00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:32,920 see bitcoin core can do a lot will do can and will do a lot for the sidechain because it's 588 00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:38,520 going to do all the global accounting so it's going to keep track of the 21 million coin limit 589 00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:45,080 and it's going to bitcoin core not the sidechain will know okay 17 000 bitcoin have been sent to 590 00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:51,320 this sidechain and only 3 000 have come back so bitcoin core will know all that and so that um 591 00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:56,120 so the sidechain benefits a lot and so it's that's kind of part of the reason why it also 592 00:56:56,120 --> 00:57:01,240 hides some of the privacy right you know how much has gone into that sidechain right the 593 00:57:01,240 --> 00:57:07,560 you want the barrier uh the transactions going in and going out will be they will have to be 594 00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:13,240 a regular transactions yeah so they have to be they cannot those are there's a limit where 595 00:57:13,240 --> 00:57:17,080 it's impossible to do because bitcoin core has to understand what that is before it can 596 00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:23,720 um yeah allow that so that's there are some kind of thing but yeah i i think that i think it would 597 00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:27,800 be really cool it would be a great way of trying out mimbo wimbo like with real bitcoin i think 598 00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:32,440 people would really enjoy it and maybe more private i think there's definitely something 599 00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:38,840 like monero where there's some like these this the chain is much heavier or even especially because 600 00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:46,120 of the way monero works in practice where they uh they hard fork every six months or every year or 601 00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:51,800 so and so they that's better that's a better fit for spv mode because spv mode just kind of is 602 00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:57,960 saying we won't check literally every detail of everything but we are we're kind of trying to just 603 00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:04,360 stay in sync uh in an efficient way and we're gonna well there's a trust of a majority of whoever 604 00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:10,360 you're connected to there that's that's part of the spv security and that helps for it's because 605 00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:14,360 you're already there with sidechain so you don't lose anything extra by doing that again so you 606 00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:19,880 could have like there could be multiple there could be like two different um and it could be 607 00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:25,000 out of phase two different um what was i just saying monero uh sidechains and they could be 608 00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:29,720 like one could be every june and one could be every december that they shut it off and then 609 00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:34,360 they turn it back on and then even though they have this endlessly growing UTXO problem they 610 00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:40,680 wouldn't because they just kill off the chain and so bring everything back and then go into a new 611 00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:45,960 sidechain okay that would be great like a big uh you know like a big uh tumblr or something like 612 00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:51,560 that and that would be that would be it'd be it it's interesting because you have this idea of 613 00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:56,920 a sidechain reset you can bring everything back and then re reset the the chain so you don't 614 00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:02,680 actually have to keep track of everything and yeah if it was too popular that's what you do 615 00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:07,880 exactly exactly so uh again i try to emphasize that it's a lot easier to understand sidechains 616 00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:12,440 if you just imagine them as altcoins that's you know so they're just all coins with bitcoin's 617 00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:18,920 accounting where the bitcoin's 21 million coin limit so you can really just do just any weird 618 00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:22,440 stupid thing you want to do on an altcoin you do any weird crazy thing right you know it doesn't 619 00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:30,040 matter but what does matter is that if you you know the um it doesn't matter if these transactions 620 00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:36,680 coming back and if people don't believe that they will be able to withdraw their money they will 621 00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:43,160 never put it in in the first place and so that will that itself helps a lot that's a big part of 622 00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:47,800 the model it's just the timing yeah it would be interesting to see sort of like the first 623 00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:53,800 sidechain vulnerability where somebody sort of deposits a lot of money into it and then somebody 624 00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:58,680 sort of steals it from them on the sidechain and then you know sort of what happens with like 625 00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:03,400 you're sort of putting miners in this weird position where they could sort of adjudicate 626 01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:08,360 or something like that kind of like you know they get to be vitalic with the dow or something yeah 627 01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:15,160 that is unfortunate so i tried to address that i think but yeah but ultimately it's not really a 628 01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:21,480 bad thing i think because the miners are going to want to do whatever is best for the value of 629 01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:25,720 bitcoin and i think that that is enough of a guiding light really to just kind of just say 630 01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:31,720 like whatever you know like i don't really you know so i but but most of the time what's best 631 01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:35,240 is that you know because what if someone's going to wake them up in the middle of the night and say 632 01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:42,120 oh it's 3 a.m we need to we need to roll back the you know the vitalik kitten inside and then 633 01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:46,760 they're just going to hang up the phone or whatever you know like but if it's important then they'll do 634 01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:51,480 it so it's kind of like a kind of this isn't very much of a cheating kind of answer but it's kind of 635 01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:55,960 like if it's a big market we'll figure it out they'll figure it out and if it's not a big problem then 636 01:00:55,960 --> 01:00:59,800 they won't figure it out and then that it's on the it's on the user which is exactly where it should 637 01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:05,640 be it's on the investor and the user to decide what risks and rewards they want to take with 638 01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:11,080 their money which is exactly where it should be right that's much much much much much better than 639 01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:18,360 what we have now which is kind of like just try to guess which set of things is best for like the 640 01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:23,880 the plurality of or you know the majority of investors or something which is which is what 641 01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:28,520 we do now which is it's not you know it's not bad we haven't there are a lot of things we could have 642 01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:32,520 screwed up by now right we could have changed the coin limit we could have we could have done 643 01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:38,040 down we could have done like a mount gox rewrite all these bad things that so it's been going very 644 01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:43,400 well but i just think we can make it even better because why shouldn't you if you want large blocks 645 01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:49,800 or if you want proof of space and time or if you want some other weird thing why you know why not 646 01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:54,760 like you can already get it on altcoin so we're just turning down all that value now the value 647 01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:58,920 that's going to the all coins that we could have in bitcoin and we're just turning it down really 648 01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:04,920 for no reason well so i that that sort of assumes that features are what give the all coins value 649 01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:10,280 and i'm not certain that that is i completely agree with you that they do not um and so that 650 01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:14,280 almost you asked about rootstock and we can almost talk about that but i think rootstock 651 01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:19,400 is making the same mistake that counterparty made or that's what i'm afraid of you know and it's not 652 01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:24,760 like what what do you what mistake is that sorry well i think it's what you said that they think 653 01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:31,640 that people care about smart contracts is a party that's not bitcoin but they can show up to 654 01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:36,600 first and they won't be late and that they can meet new friends and have fun and a great adventure 655 01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:43,560 well and they can get the marketing power of vitalik behind them yeah with uh what do the 656 01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:51,880 wonderkind uh boy genius uh jesus christ savior figure what can't you do right but i think 657 01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:56,840 but counterparty did this they you can go back uh i'm trying to remember was it like it was like 658 01:02:56,840 --> 01:03:02,440 summer of 2013 or 2014 or something 2014 i think where ethereum made clowner party on theirs and 659 01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:06,920 then counterparty made ethereum on there something like that right exactly but no one cared no one 660 01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:13,000 cared about either it just kind of demonstrates your point perfectly i think but in particular 661 01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:17,560 counterparty said look we have the ethereum virtual machine now and counterparty counterparty 662 01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:23,080 did there was a huge pump that day went up like 10x but then it crashed like over the later weeks 663 01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:28,360 and no one cares today because it has nothing it's not about the future yeah it's about something 664 01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:32,760 else and maybe it's a network effect or i think it's a network effect i think it's also you know 665 01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:39,880 i people disagree about this but i think it's a stealth campaign to dethrone bitcoin as the 666 01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:46,120 internet money um by well i mean speaking as an economist i know you i know you have like many 667 01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:52,600 degrees in that is is is that the main value proposition for ethereum then is sort of like 668 01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:58,040 the possibility for taking over bitcoin i definitely think that there's that well people 669 01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:02,760 it's kind of like bitcoin where people are very coy people are very clever about in bitcoin because 670 01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:07,640 a lot of people will pretend on bitcoin to be like a lot dumber a much dumber version of themselves 671 01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:12,280 with all the memes and with all this stuff people pretend they figure out what bitcoin is really 672 01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:17,880 about and then they pretend that they only care about getting rich you know they blend in you know 673 01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:22,280 and they they really understand what real cryptography is about which is like plausible 674 01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:27,960 deniability and like all this so people are very clever about who they and i think ethereum people 675 01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:34,440 are also very clever about that too they know what game is being played and they're they say out loud 676 01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:41,080 they say well you know they can coexist and this ethereum is never trying to compete with 677 01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:46,120 bitcoin and it's and it's digital this is gavin and gavin wood said this i just couldn't believe 678 01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:49,880 that this stuck and everyone was afraid to say that the emperor had no clothes on this one for 679 01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:56,440 years and years gavin wood said that bitcoin is digital gold and the ether was digital oil 680 01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:01,160 yeah i mean they've been saying that for years we are oil to bitcoin's gold after 681 01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:06,440 i thought that was the dumbest thing it was so dumb i mean it's just transparently false like 682 01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:12,680 the function of gold is that if i give you a gold coin you might give me like a really old 683 01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:17,400 car or something i could buy so you got to get it i could buy a suit a nice tailored suit with 684 01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:21,960 a little gold coin and so the function of digital gold is that i can 685 01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:28,920 that you you would accept it in return for its stuff it's it's money it's a medium exchange 686 01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:34,760 and it's a store value and all these things and the function of oil is that it you know it 687 01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:39,880 moves the car or it heats my house or something but it doesn't it doesn't do that like so i don't 688 01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:47,400 know what it's it's a little more voluminous for per um per volume or something like that i don't 689 01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:55,080 know it but it literally is described as like the cost of various computing resources so it's so 690 01:05:55,080 --> 01:06:01,640 it's a it's it is also a value it's also a gold so i don't know what like yeah yeah people said 691 01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:07,240 that thing about oil and everyone was just afraid they were afraid for so long to say that it didn't 692 01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:10,440 make any sense and then if you said it didn't make sense people would be like you don't understand 693 01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:17,160 like i mean they have something called gas paul that yeah right like something yeah it's very 694 01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:23,880 very obscure but i you know you ask my opinion that is what it is that uh people think i think 695 01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:29,240 there's a lot of smart people in ethereum who i don't i don't agree that they're right but they 696 01:06:29,240 --> 01:06:37,400 have these theories that are something like okay with bitcoin too much of it was mined too quickly 697 01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:43,560 and so the all the people who bought into bitcoin that's not enough of a network effect to carry it 698 01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:49,480 over the line so now that blockchain technology is big we're going to have new people and if we 699 01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:54,600 just get a different we just it's it's smart they're like a they're like a second political 700 01:06:54,600 --> 01:06:59,320 party or something they know who they're not going to get they're not going to get like the 701 01:06:59,320 --> 01:07:05,960 hardcore anarchist libertarian even they so they fold that hand because it's losing hand and that 702 01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:10,280 that's why ethereum has all this weird stuff like it has two percent inflation forever but declining 703 01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:15,400 so it's kind of like this weird mix of everything it has if bitcoin is conservative right it doesn't 704 01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:21,240 put in ghosts because it makes selfish mining worse or ethereum puts ghosts just put everything 705 01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:28,760 in a ghost uh uh like i'll be my ghost sorry i i think the uh the uncle thing that uncle 706 01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:35,080 generating heaviest tree or something i don't remember so if you instead of orphan blocks on 707 01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:41,080 ethereum you you get some subsidy if even if you do the uncle thing they do proof of stake they do 708 01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:45,880 everything they do everything whatever it is as long as as long as bitcoin won't do it they'll do 709 01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:50,600 it which is you understand like that is smart if you are playing by this other set of rules that 710 01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:54,520 you want to capture a different group of people and hopefully make it bigger and same thing with 711 01:07:54,520 --> 01:08:00,760 the icos they were like well this you know bitcoin was like get that out of here because 712 01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:05,960 transparently stupid but ethereum was like you know if you've got money you know and you've got 713 01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:10,280 it marketing because they're because and that's so it's a it's a match made in heaven so i think 714 01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:17,960 that is a lot of what that is and even you know honestly the uh it is it's kind of clever that i 715 01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:23,800 don't really i highly highly doubt that it can even possibly succeed because the internal logical 716 01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:30,360 contradictions of ethereum are just so numerous and so there are so many flaws that can't be fixed 717 01:08:30,360 --> 01:08:36,040 but it's a smart it's a smart long shot and i understand why it has value i think now more than 718 01:08:36,040 --> 01:08:41,880 i did in the past because think about it like if they stumbled upon some kind of like sidechain 719 01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:46,200 like thing early on enough and then they kind of wall they they clamped everything down and said 720 01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:50,920 okay we're not changing any of this stuff anymore and if you didn't have the dow which is a big if 721 01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:55,560 because i think stuff like that is inevitable but if you didn't and i may discover some kind 722 01:08:55,560 --> 01:09:01,640 of sidechains thing or something that is like a like a real win like a but they never do they 723 01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:05,640 only copy they only ever copy bitcoin stuff like you know bitcoin came out the lightning network 724 01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:11,400 after years of r&d and like carefully thought and then like two weeks later ethereum has 725 01:09:12,120 --> 01:09:17,400 raiden or whatever it's the same thing you know that's the that's the uh mortal combat lightning 726 01:09:17,400 --> 01:09:23,720 character it's like you know it's like who are we kidding here you know so right afterwards and 727 01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:29,560 then people talk about sharding but none of it goes anywhere and then i'm sure now that i'm 728 01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:33,640 talking about this then suddenly ethereum will have a new exactly what i'm doing but with the 729 01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:38,200 well yeah i i imagine that'll be their scaling solution at some point is we're gonna have 730 01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:43,080 sidechains yeah so let's talk about that because that's a cool thing that's my lawn presentation 731 01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:47,240 which is not only that you have the larger block sidechain and let roger veer go over there 732 01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:51,240 but also that the whole system is a little bit better because it is like this 733 01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:57,240 this um it's just like a strategy it's this martin bailey strategy you might be familiar with 734 01:09:57,240 --> 01:10:04,600 the mountain valley i don't know it's a logical fallacy really where people sub some things in 735 01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:11,480 they it's like a shell game where you attack from a weak position and then when you're counterattacked 736 01:10:11,480 --> 01:10:18,360 you retreat to a strong position and so you're it's it's completely illogical and very unfair 737 01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:22,760 and invalid and wrong because you have to just pick what your position is you can't keep changing 738 01:10:22,760 --> 01:10:31,560 it right but but the defense is that you have this um you uh have this this duality where you 739 01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:37,080 can switch when you're being attacked versus when you are attacking so the point is everyone can 740 01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:42,120 hang out in the nice part which i believe is the bailey yeah the bailey is the nice part 741 01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:46,120 where you want to attack from so you have the large block sidechain you hang out there 742 01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:52,920 but then when the bad guys show up and attack the network then you just kind of put the large 743 01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:59,080 blockchain on pause and you can even keep it on pause forever and potentially even just close it 744 01:10:59,080 --> 01:11:05,800 down and slowly walk everyone's money back from the large blockchain to the small blockchain 745 01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:12,680 and so you can kind of uh hang out in the large blockchain but then retreat to the small blockchain 746 01:11:12,680 --> 01:11:19,160 like at a moment's notice and uh and because you can do that this is the real magic is that because 747 01:11:19,160 --> 01:11:24,440 you can do that the adversary is less likely to even attack the large blockchain in the first 748 01:11:24,440 --> 01:11:29,560 place so it's like you have this big castle castle of the moth in fact i'm pretty sure 749 01:11:29,560 --> 01:11:34,440 game of thrones deepwood moth is named after that idea which is why i think that names are like that 750 01:11:34,440 --> 01:11:43,080 but uh the point is you have this big stone tower thing you retreat to that in times of crisis but 751 01:11:43,080 --> 01:11:47,240 since you've got one there no one bothers attacking you in the first place so you're hanging out in 752 01:11:47,240 --> 01:11:52,360 the plain the nice meadow the whole time because they know that you're just gonna as soon as you go 753 01:11:52,360 --> 01:11:59,400 over there you're just gonna go back into the yeah it's uh it's taking advantage of um one part of 754 01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:05,960 yeah i i think you can imagine like imagine in your mind like two newspaper headlines right one 755 01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:11,880 of them is like u.s government closes down bitcoin and then the subtitle is like ha ha ha you stupid 756 01:12:11,880 --> 01:12:17,240 large blockers you know you you ruined everything and now all there are no nodes and it's all been 757 01:12:17,240 --> 01:12:24,040 ruined okay they put dmca take down on all the nodes or something weird like that you know what 758 01:12:24,040 --> 01:12:29,160 i mean something weird happens to the large something that's not defined happens to the 759 01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:38,120 the large and the large um large block network but then a different newspaper headline would 760 01:12:38,120 --> 01:12:46,200 be something like uh some bitcoin transactions will now be more expensive and slower as a result 761 01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:52,120 of you know u.s government or something just one is like the u.s government has a victory 762 01:12:52,120 --> 01:12:55,480 right over bitcoin but the other one is just that the u.s government is just kind of being 763 01:12:55,480 --> 01:13:00,280 annoying to people who are using the the large because they can always just go over somewhere 764 01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:04,200 else yeah and the people on the large blockchain are probably your price sensitive like the division 765 01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:09,480 that i have is that that's all the price sensitive people over there so they are like all the honest 766 01:13:09,480 --> 01:13:16,360 kyc aml people so that they're just shooting their own like the the the good code the kind 767 01:13:16,360 --> 01:13:23,240 of well-behaved people that's not unusual for the u.s government so yeah um but i'm saying and 768 01:13:23,240 --> 01:13:28,440 yeah i'm not saying it's impossible but i am saying it's like it's like as a as when you're 769 01:13:28,440 --> 01:13:34,520 looking at the kind of menu of options that you have if you're the if you're the attacker 770 01:13:35,960 --> 01:13:38,840 you want to pick something that will work you don't want to pick something that won't work 771 01:13:38,840 --> 01:13:42,360 so right that's something that's not actually going to work then you won't you won't try that 772 01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:47,560 you'll try something else okay all right so i did have another thing to ask you about um i think 773 01:13:47,560 --> 01:13:54,840 monero was talking about doing mimblewimble on a sidechain of their own um how can you imagine 774 01:13:54,840 --> 01:14:00,200 a sort of sidechains working within sort of a monero framework because they they have a completely 775 01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:05,240 different uh sort of set of things i have no idea but the way Drivechain works is also 776 01:14:05,800 --> 01:14:09,880 kind of totally different so we have all this weird stuff that is just kind of 777 01:14:10,840 --> 01:14:15,720 kludged into just going to weirdly fit into bitcoin because it has nothing to do with like 778 01:14:15,720 --> 01:14:21,480 you they're not even i i think on sunday you mentioned opcodes but they're not even opcodes 779 01:14:21,480 --> 01:14:26,120 because none of that it was started as opcodes but then as we were working on it we figured out 780 01:14:26,120 --> 01:14:30,360 that it doesn't make any sense because nothing is really happening on the transaction level 781 01:14:30,360 --> 01:14:34,520 anyway it's all happening on the block level so it all ends up in validation.cpp for the block 782 01:14:35,480 --> 01:14:43,560 so uh Drivechain is like uh kind of uh different from the way bitcoin and monero work so they 783 01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:47,960 could probably take i have no idea what they are planning to do and that would be really neat if 784 01:14:47,960 --> 01:14:51,960 my guess is that they actually aren't but i don't know anything about it so i shouldn't say 785 01:14:51,960 --> 01:14:59,160 because but just because i was talking to ricardo uh otherwise known as fluffy pony and he's uh 786 01:14:59,160 --> 01:15:01,704 yeah he was mentioning something about 787 01:15:01,704 --> 01:15:10,704 maybe adding mimblewimble like uh abilities to a sidechain of monero and uh i i'm not sure if it would be exactly pegged um i i don't know i'm gonna have to ask him again 788 01:15:10,704 --> 01:15:26,704 yeah i don't know anything about it but yeah it's fine yeah uh anyway uh i i i can't believe it but we we've been on for like 75 minutes already so uh yeah so uh i i think we're gonna have to uh cut it off here but thank you uh for coming on the show 789 01:15:26,704 --> 01:15:34,144 cut it off here but thank you uh 300 plus viewers that have been watching live uh paul any last words 790 01:15:34,144 --> 01:15:39,344 about Drivechains and the future of bitcoin as a result uh yeah okay that's good because i just 791 01:15:39,344 --> 01:15:47,184 thought of something which is that i don't want you know this is just an idea and what i'm trying 792 01:15:47,184 --> 01:15:52,064 to say is that i'm not really trying to present this because i started off by saying it's like 793 01:15:52,784 --> 01:15:55,904 and like it's it's a project for everything for everything and nothing 794 01:15:57,504 --> 01:16:03,424 but i'm not i don't know if it's for everything or for nothing yet it's just an idea and i think 795 01:16:03,424 --> 01:16:08,944 it's a really good idea that's worth your attention and worth really trying and i'm not 796 01:16:08,944 --> 01:16:13,184 trying to say that this is like the big ultimate savior of everything but i think it has that 797 01:16:13,184 --> 01:16:19,584 potential and i think that you should just uh kind of give it uh some of your attention but i don't 798 01:16:19,584 --> 01:16:24,544 want to say that i'm not like so arrogant that i'm going to say like this is the the only thing 799 01:16:24,544 --> 01:16:28,544 that you'll ever need that's the kind of stuff that the ethereum people say i hate that that's 800 01:16:28,544 --> 01:16:35,104 stupid like this but yeah what i'm saying is that i think this is this is really different and you're 801 01:16:35,104 --> 01:16:41,344 probably going to hear a lot of you know arguing about this idea which is great and i that's 802 01:16:41,344 --> 01:16:46,304 awesome but you should go to the drivechain.info and you should read the faq and you should read 803 01:16:46,304 --> 01:16:53,264 about what's going on because this idea is not it's not like other ideas like regular ideas like 804 01:16:53,264 --> 01:16:57,584 check sequence verify or something it's just it's a lot of code and a lot of testing and then it's 805 01:16:57,584 --> 01:17:03,184 like if some number matches some other number a math equation doesn't work and then the transaction 806 01:17:03,984 --> 01:17:10,464 fails but this is very different this is more like this is more like inventing bitcoin for the first 807 01:17:10,464 --> 01:17:15,504 time so i want people to have a more of an open mind than they would have before because the 808 01:17:15,504 --> 01:17:22,944 benefits are way bigger and also the the idea is just bigger so it's a it's it's it's not like 809 01:17:22,944 --> 01:17:28,224 we're just editing some little transactions so that it can do one or two more little like uh 810 01:17:28,224 --> 01:17:35,504 you know backflips or something it's this is like a big idea and it's it's really um 811 01:17:36,944 --> 01:17:42,224 it's very large and kind of abstract so i think it's and the security of this is 812 01:17:43,024 --> 01:17:45,824 it's more similar to the way bitcoin works in general where it's 813 01:17:46,464 --> 01:17:52,224 it's these incentives for miners and miners are in charge but i argue that they are in charge 814 01:17:52,224 --> 01:17:55,584 in bitcoin anyway because they can reorder it can steal your money by reorging and they're 815 01:17:55,584 --> 01:18:00,784 in charge in the lightning network because they can well they're they're not so much in charge 816 01:18:00,784 --> 01:18:06,704 but they're bound by sort of the social community around bitcoin that in a way that they can't 817 01:18:06,704 --> 01:18:11,904 really cheat yeah i completely agree that that's the wrong way of thinking about it we don't have 818 01:18:11,984 --> 01:18:17,344 we have a game theoretic situation in bitcoin where it's sort of like a mexican standoff 819 01:18:17,344 --> 01:18:22,784 where these different groups all have some power but they are checked by some other power and they 820 01:18:22,784 --> 01:18:28,864 are in this in this in this sort of equilibrium with each other and so that is the wrong way to 821 01:18:28,864 --> 01:18:34,944 think about it is that the minor this it's very reductionist to say the miners can just steal from 822 01:18:34,944 --> 01:18:40,624 the yeah they can't they can't and it's not how anything works and that's like saying the police 823 01:18:40,624 --> 01:18:45,024 can come and just take all your stuff which sometimes they do but you know like you know 824 01:18:45,024 --> 01:18:50,224 that's all the i don't want to draw the conversation yeah that's a very specific 825 01:18:50,224 --> 01:18:54,384 circumstance is there any oversimplified way of looking at the world and you shouldn't look at 826 01:18:54,384 --> 01:18:57,904 the world that way and you shouldn't look at this project that way so and again i'm not saying that 827 01:18:57,904 --> 01:19:03,104 it's perfect i'm just saying i think it's probably the best sidechain idea and probably definitely 828 01:19:03,104 --> 01:19:08,944 worth your attention and worth trying so i'm glad that you asked that yeah i mean i i i'm 829 01:19:08,944 --> 01:19:13,504 been excited about this project i i don't think i've hidden that at all and i i would like to see 830 01:19:13,504 --> 01:19:20,624 it come to pass um do go read the bips they're uh they're going to be in the show notes and you can 831 01:19:20,624 --> 01:19:25,744 go take a look at all of the stuff that paul's written um i i really do believe that this this 832 01:19:25,744 --> 01:19:32,624 has the power to potentially change a lot of uh the way we look at cryptocurrency in general um if 833 01:19:32,624 --> 01:19:38,224 it works the way we think it will um and and certainly um you know i mean we'll we'll learn 834 01:19:38,224 --> 01:19:43,984 a lot more about what gives a currency value because at the very least it'll it'll answer 835 01:19:43,984 --> 01:19:49,664 the question is a feature enough or is it something more than that and uh and yeah we'll we'll we'll 836 01:19:49,664 --> 01:19:55,024 discover some of that who knows uh even if it doesn't happen on bitcoin i have a feeling somebody 837 01:19:55,024 --> 01:19:58,864 somebody will hard fork internet sidechains or something to another bitcoin hard fork or 838 01:19:58,864 --> 01:20:04,864 something so uh this is something that i think it's coming regardless yeah yeah that that would 839 01:20:04,864 --> 01:20:10,304 suck hugely um if that's sort of what it would have yeah just we need more conflicts right and 840 01:20:10,304 --> 01:20:17,424 more just weird yeah i don't know like this is one of those economic questions that i'm still 841 01:20:17,424 --> 01:20:24,704 kind of like questioning is that are conflicts bad for bitcoin i'm not sure that the answer is no 842 01:20:24,704 --> 01:20:30,224 so yeah well i think that's is a i think it's a nuanced question but the idea that someone has 843 01:20:30,224 --> 01:20:37,344 the option of with a whole new set of miners new proof of work uh copying the you know the chain 844 01:20:37,344 --> 01:20:43,024 history of bitcoin and then adding this feature that is kind of a very much an indication that 845 01:20:43,024 --> 01:20:47,424 the miners are not in charge right because if it's a if it's if and only if it's a good feature 846 01:20:47,424 --> 01:20:52,464 so if it's a good feature versus bad feature if it's a good feature the miners basically have to 847 01:20:52,464 --> 01:20:59,104 add it or they can be like crushed by someone just creating a new spinoff that has a different proof 848 01:20:59,104 --> 01:21:04,224 of work so but if it's a bad feature then they it's the reverse then they they must not add it 849 01:21:04,224 --> 01:21:09,584 because yeah it's a step beyond UASF uh but yeah i mean more or less that's what you're talking 850 01:21:09,584 --> 01:21:12,864 about is that the user that's very interesting that's what i'm saying is that the relationships 851 01:21:12,864 --> 01:21:17,824 are not just like some guys in charge or something yeah yeah no it's it's definitely not hierarchical 852 01:21:17,824 --> 01:21:24,384 it's uh it's more dependent in some sort of circular graph or something um anyway uh thank 853 01:21:24,384 --> 01:21:28,304 you paul for for this very enlightening conversation we'll definitely have to do it 854 01:21:28,304 --> 01:21:34,944 again uh thank you audience for uh for sticking with us for almost an hour and a half um i i 855 01:21:34,944 --> 01:21:39,264 didn't expect this to go this long i thought it would be like a 30 40 minute show it uh it 856 01:21:39,264 --> 01:21:45,344 certainly was a lot longer but anyway uh thank you everyone and uh this song is done